Author Topic: Ovid's Metamorphoses  (Read 126898 times)

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #320 on: February 01, 2016, 11:05:50 AM »


Winter, or The Flood
Nicolas Poussin

(b. 1594, Les Andelys, d. 1664, Rome)


(The Lombardo translation is highly recommended, but there are tons of them available online, free.   Here is a sampling, or please share with us another you've found which you like:)


---http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088---Translated by  A.S. Kline...(This one has its own built in clickable dictionary)...


---http://classics.mit.edu         /Ovid/metam.html...---Translated by Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden, et al


----    http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html----Translated by Brookes More




Family Tree of the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome:
-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm

-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm




For Your Consideration:

Week Two: Gods and men learn to interact January 26--?

 First section: The Four Ages

  Bk I:89-112 The Golden Age
  Bk I:113-124 The Silver Age
  Bk I:125-150 The Bronze Age

1. Have you heard other versions of the Four Ages?  Where did Ovid get this story?

2. Why do you think the ages progress from better to worse instead of the other direction?

3. The  Golden Age sounds wonderful, doesn't it?  What would your idea of a "Golden Age" feature?

4. What is your favorite line from Ovid  about the Golden Age?

5. What was it that turned the Golden Age into the Silver Age?

6. What is "Classical Mythology?" Do you have time to watch less than 10 minutes of Dr. Roger Travis of UCONN explain what "The Rudy Thing" is,  so we can discuss it? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvt3EazHqXY

Second Section: Giants and Lycaon
  Bk I:151-176 The giants
  Bk I:177-198 Jupiter threatens to destroy humankind
  Bk I: 199-243 Lycaon is turned into a wolf

1. What are the Giants? Why is this chapter there?  Does it accomplish anything?

2. We now meet the Pantheon of Gods for the first time. The imagery here is spectacular.  What line or lines particularly struck you in the writing  about their conference?

3. A direct reference is made to Augustus for the first time in this poem. Who is he being likened to? Why?

4. What would the Romans have seen as Lycaon’s real offense?

Third section: The Flood
  Bk I:244-273 Jupiter invokes the floodwaters
  Bk I:274-292 The Flood
  Bk I:293-312 The world is drowned

1. What other ancient flood stories do you know?  How is this one the same or different?

2. Are the other gods wholeheartedly behind Jupiter’s plan?  Why or why not?  Do you think Jupiter was justified in bringing the flood?

3. During the flood, what would happen to the nymphs and other forest spirits Jupiter is supposedly protecting.



Discussion Leaders: PatH and ginny

         

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #321 on: February 01, 2016, 11:06:27 AM »
Take care of yourself, Barb.

The giants--Ginny, in Martin it's even clearer:
Quote
   ...the race of Giants plotted
(we hear) to rule in heaven by themselves;
So Ovid is sneaking in political commentary wrapped in a story everyone knows, vaguely enough that you can't quite pin it on him.

Jonathan

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #322 on: February 01, 2016, 03:01:54 PM »
What an extraordinary look into the religious life of a pagan world. How does it end? Do gods and mortals ever learn to coexist? And I've just read that The Metamorphoses was Shakespeare's favourite book. It seems a translation (Arthur Golding) came out about the time of Shakespeare's birth and rapidly became a bestseller. Ezra Pound called it 'the most beautiful book in the language'. And really, a quote of nine lines, in the book I'm reading, sound marvellously Shakesperian.

'I'm beginning to see him as a mad scientist!!' Or an ecstatic poet, Bellamarie?

bellamarie

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #323 on: February 01, 2016, 04:14:54 PM »
Barb,
Quote
We do not hear folks today protecting themselves for the gods but they sure had their way up till the mid twentieth century and may even continue to have sway in other cultures.

No, I fear if anything folks today question even if there is a God.  I see the world today much like the iron age.

Jonathan,   "ecstatic poet"   for certain by this definition:  involving an experience of mystic self-transcendence. 

I just know all this power tripping, has me feeling like I am caught in the galaxy with the gods playing pool, and I am being bumped around from place to place as the pool balls hit me.   ???

PatH., 
Quote
So Ovid is sneaking in political commentary wrapped in a story everyone knows, vaguely enough that you can't quite pin it on him.

I think we can all pretty much agree on Ovid trying to tactfully, or sneakily place political commentary into his poem, but with all due respect for this brilliant poet, if "we" could figure it out, I am for certain Augustus could as well.   

Barb glad to see you are feeling better.  My sons and grandchildren have been hit with a nasty virus and I am staying as far away from their house as possible. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #324 on: February 01, 2016, 04:23:40 PM »
Bellamarie:
Quote
I just know all this power tripping, has me feeling like I am caught in the galaxy with the gods playing pool, and I am being bumped around from place to place as the pool balls hit me.
I love that--a perfect summary of life under the gods of the classics.

Yes, Augustus surely could figure it out.  I'm guessing all Ovid could hope for was a kind of letter-of-the-law deniability: "why, how could you think I meant that"?

JoanK

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #325 on: February 01, 2016, 06:12:14 PM »
GINNY: quotes Jupiter as saying "I swear that I have already tried everything else"

Kline's translation says "All means should first be tried,"I wonder if that is a mistake by Kline, or is Ovid ambiguous here? This is tricky, indeed.

JoanK

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #326 on: February 01, 2016, 06:29:53 PM »
HUBRIS! OF COURSE!

I've been slow trying to pick up the "underlying cultural values" here, and of course that's one of them. If you get too big for your britches (or toga as the case may be) the gods will  slap you down. You always have to appease or kowtow to them. A perfect mirror for the way you have to treat Augustus.

Now I forgive Virgil for his constant, long winded praises of Augustus. he had probably learned this kind of behavior from childhood, and knew he had to do it to survive. It's put me off reading the Aeniad (sp). Now I'll just read it and skip those passages.

bellamarie

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #327 on: February 01, 2016, 09:21:15 PM »


“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #328 on: February 01, 2016, 09:33:53 PM »
Hah ;D!

Frybabe

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #329 on: February 02, 2016, 06:42:37 AM »
I found this interesting definition of hubris. It seems that the definition has changed since the Greeks used the word. http://www.britannica.com/topic/hubris It appears that, for the ancients, hubris had a violent context rather than a prideful one. I really must read Aristotle. I have had two Modern Library volumes for 40 years and haven't cracked the books. Shame on me.

As for the gods, I was outside before dawn this morning to see if I could identify the Mars, Jupiter, Mercury, Venus and Saturn, along with the Moon. I also got acquainted with Spica and Antares (and its constellation, Scorpius). I missed Mercury this morning, but did see it a few mornings ago when it was higher in the sky just after dawn along with a beautiful turquoise sky with orange tinged clouds.

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #330 on: February 02, 2016, 08:18:59 AM »
Darn.  Another opportunity missed.  I've never managed to see Mercury, and would really like to.  If you saw Spica, you saw Astraea, goddess of justice, the last of the immortals to give up and leave earth in the iron age, because Spica is in the constellation Virgo, who Kline says is Astraea when she isn't being Ceres/Demeter.

ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #331 on: February 02, 2016, 09:01:48 AM »
Golly moses, talk about Metamorphoses,  have you all seen the film this morning of the poor unfortunate man whose hands (and feet) are literally turning into leaves?  They look exactly like this: Daphne  who, seen here  by Bernini in Ovid's Metamorphoses, is turning into a tree. 

He was on the  CNN APP,  and lives in Bangladesh, but they are going to help him. I couldn't believe it. It's some rare skin condition.

Life imitates art.

That is such a cute sign on Julius Caesar, Bellamarie.

Frybabe, that is also  a super modern definition tho of what we mean by the word Hubris: to be defined as overweening presumption that leads a person to disregard the divinely fixed limits on human action in an ordered cosmos.

That's it!  Perfect!  Of course it seems to me that Ovid was using it in the Athenian definition for Lycoan. Or was he?

How many times in how MANY myths do the gods disguise themselves and come among mortals?

Why, one wonders? This one sure backfired, or did Lycoan recognize him?

This is really good, Joan K:

I've been slow trying to pick up the "underlying cultural values" here, and of course that's one of them. If you get too big for your britches (or toga as the case may be) the gods will  slap you down. You always have to appease or kowtow to them. A perfect mirror for the way you have to treat Augustus.

A perfect description also of the story of Arachne which comes up in Book 6.

Now I forgive Virgil for his constant, long winded praises of Augustus. he had probably learned this kind of behavior from childhood, and knew he had to do it to survive. It's put me off reading the Aeniad (sp). Now I'll just read it and skip those passages.

One can tell that the  Aeneid was written to celebrate Augustus, so it's not surprising it's singing his praises.   Augustus however never had a problem singing his own praises, check the Res Gestae. There was an hilarious film on that a couple of years back. If I can find it on YouTube I'll bring it here, I think they have taken it off, it's the Horrible Histories series: Rotten Romans.

I really liked the thought here that if WE can figure it out, certainly  Augustus could have. It's not known WHEN Ovid wrote those bits. It IS known that 3 copies existed before his exile but did he add to them? His letters from exile suggest not. They say he was snatched before he could edit. But that's hard to believe.

So if he did not add this later on in anger, maybe he want a tad too far the first time. Idle speculation, but  I wonder sometimes if THIS "carmen" did not help push him on his way, along with the others about how to seduce married women.

ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #332 on: February 02, 2016, 09:10:36 AM »
Anotehr good point, JoanK:

[Lombardo] quotes Jupiter as saying "I swear that I have already tried everything else"

Kline's translation says "All means should first be tried,"I wonder if that is a mistake by Kline, or is Ovid ambiguous here? This is tricky, indeed.


What does everybody's translation have there? Those two are quite different, aren't they?

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #333 on: February 02, 2016, 09:22:12 AM »
Time to move on, and see where Jupiter's anger takes us.  Let's start talking about the flood, then quickly add what comas after.  For now:

Third section: The Flood
  Bk I:244-273 Jupiter invokes the floodwaters
  Bk I:274-292 The Flood
  Bk I:293-312 The world is drowned

Those are Kline's divisions.  It's through the point where everything left is starving, and just before the description of the country of Phocis and the entry of Deucalion and Pyrrha.

But we can still finish up what we're saying about the second section.

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #334 on: February 02, 2016, 10:41:03 AM »
Ginny, Martin says:
   "...we have tried everything
to find a cure, but now the surgeon's blade
must cut away what is untreatable,
lest the infection spread to healthy parts."

Frybabe

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #335 on: February 02, 2016, 11:01:31 AM »
PatH, there are a few more days you can see five planets in the sky at once plus the moon. I saw Mercury and Venus the other morning just at dawn when the sky had already brightened up to a pale turquoise with a few orange tinted clouds. I was looking a little earlier this morning so Mercury was still in the haze and below the tree line. As I was looking this morning, I made note that Mars was almost directly south of me according to the map.
http://www.skyandtelescope.com/observing/sky-at-a-glance/this-weeks-sky-at-a-glance-january-29-february-6/

bellamarie

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #336 on: February 02, 2016, 11:12:35 AM »
Ginny,
Quote
What does everybody's translation have there?
Mandelbaum's translation:

I swear on the infernal streams that glide
beneath the woods of Styx, that I have tried
all other means; and now I must excise
that malady which can't be cured: mankind__
lest the untainted beings on the earth
become infected, too.  I have half-gods
and rustic deities__Nymphs, Satyrs, Fauns,
and woodland gods who haunt the mountain slopes:
we've not yet found them fit for heaven's honors,
but let's ensure their safety on the lands
we have assigned to them.  Can you, o gods,
believe they are secure when I myself,
who am the lord of lightning and your lord,
met with the trap Lycaon set for me__
Lycaon, famed for his ferocity?"


Frybabe, I have an app on my ipad air that is called SkyView that allows me to see all that is in the sky inside my home. It's very fascinating, I have been teaching my two small grandkids the constellations, and how to stargaze with it.  What time in the early morning hours are you able to see them in the sky outside your home?  Do you have a large clearing open to viewing?

PatH., 
Quote
Let's start talking about the flood,

Oh joy!  We are headed for the flood!!  Perfect time for Noah and his ark.  :)
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #337 on: February 02, 2016, 12:41:27 PM »
Here are a few pics I took of the planets lined up from my SkyView app today, and Virgo with Spica shining so bright!

Virgo with the bright star Spica


Planets lined up.


Here is Virgo and the bright star Spica with Jupiter and Mars above and below her.
 

I can get lost with this app some days.  I especially love watching the International space station at night.  Okay, back to the poem. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #338 on: February 02, 2016, 02:10:54 PM »
That's quite an app.  I see Virgo is being Ceres here, since she has her sheaf of wheat in her hand.  But when she's being Justice, her scales are handy--the constellation Libra next to her.

Do you know the trick for finding her if you don't have an app, with Arcturus along the way?  Find the big dipper--that's easy, just look north--and continue the curve of it's handle (or the bear's tail if you see it as a bear) still curving.  It makes an arc to Arcturus, then a spike to Spica.

Frybabe

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #339 on: February 02, 2016, 04:19:05 PM »
What a fun way to remmember that Pat. The Big Dipper is behind me when I stand out front.

Bellamarie, I have one on my Kindle, but I don't remember the name of it. It is really cool because it can be configured different ways and gives info on whatever you point to. I am generally up around 5am EST, so it was between 5:30am and 6:30am that I was out front today. Lucky for me that the street light is out (has been for a year) or I wouldn't get to see much of anything. My backyard had trees blocking and the houses on either side of me block some of the view.

Now I have to get busy reading the next section tonight.

bellamarie

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #340 on: February 02, 2016, 04:25:33 PM »
PatH., 
Quote
If you saw Spica, you saw Astraea, goddess of justice, the last of the immortals to give up and leave earth in the iron age, because Spica is in the constellation Virgo, who Kline says is Astraea when she isn't being Ceres/Demeter.

I found Arcturus and Spica but I could not find Astraea.  Is it because as you stated, Kline says when Virgo isn't being Ceres/Demeter, which here you say she is Ceres?   You never cease to amaze me with your knowledge Pat.

Frybabe, Yes, my app also has the capabilities you speak of.  I just love it!  5:30 am and 6:30 am, oh dear, I am still snoozing at that time.  I may have to attempt to set my alarm one morning though.  Thank you!
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #341 on: February 02, 2016, 04:30:23 PM »
Most of the maps just call her Virgo.  Aside from really bright Spica, all her stars aren't that noticeable.  I had totally forgotten that Virgo was Astraea, though my star maps say so, but Kline's link said it.

JoanK

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #342 on: February 02, 2016, 04:40:04 PM »
That's enough to make me want to get an Ipad! The light pollution in the LA area is so bad, I'm lucky if I see more than two stars in the sky at night.

When I worked, I had an app that told me where the moon was directly overhead at any time. So if I saw the daytime moon over the building across the street in DC, I knew it was shining directly down on the Sahara dessert!

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #343 on: February 02, 2016, 05:20:07 PM »
Probably late in the day for this - I just opened my email and found it - and so, if you are at home this evening you may want to tune in - The Harry Ransom Center is the museum at UT and they are doing all sorts of things this year to not only celebrate Shakespeare's 400 years but to keep up with other authors whose papers are stored here at UT.

This evening at 7: our time which would be 8: back east, there is a live webcast of the on stage reading of Richard III
here is the link...
http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/events/
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #344 on: February 02, 2016, 05:39:01 PM »
I don't see, from what you all put here, any proof that Jupiter HAD tried anything,  much less all. Some are more vague than others, but it's fairly clear he's determined to avenge this wrong.

For sheer poetic beauty in words, tho, it's hard to beat this, is this what your texts say?

"Here's a man on a hilltop, and one in his curved skiff,
Rowing where just  yesterday he plowed. Another one
Sails over acres of wheat or the roof of his farmhouse
Deep underwater. Here's someone catching a fish
In the top of an elm. Sometimes an anchor
Sticks in a green meadow, or keels brush the tops
of vineyards beneath. ...

...With no land in sight, no place to perch
The exhausted bird drops into the sea."

For some reason the fate of birds with nowhere to land had never occurred to me. Goodness that's dramatic, isn't it?



bellamarie

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #345 on: February 02, 2016, 07:09:20 PM »
JoanK., you would love having the ipad air to use for this app.  My grandchildren spend hours on mine.  They really love taking it outside in the summer nights and looking at it.  But the great thing is all this is daytime as well!  So amazing what technology has brought to us.  I love how the app allows you to take a pic of what you are seeing and send it to Facebook, email etc.

Yes, PatH., all of Virgo's stars other than Spica are not noticeable.  I kept trying to see them to no avail.

Ginny, which translation are you using?  Mine is no where near as "poetic beauty" as yours.

Thank you Barb, I will try to watch this.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

ginny

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #346 on: February 02, 2016, 07:31:38 PM »
Bellamarie, that's the Lombardo. It IS gorgeous, isn't it? I bet the Dryden would be close.

That "touching the top of the vineyards" really resonated with me, as I went up in a hot air balloon in California and the thing, in coming down did some brushing of the tops of vineyards of its own. A strange sensation and I am sure lots of damage incurred.

bellamarie

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #347 on: February 02, 2016, 07:43:51 PM »
I found this interesting comparison on the flood in Ovid's Metamorphoses and the Bible version, I highlighted a few things I personally saw stand out to me:

http://www.123helpme.com/assets/16303.html

The Flood and Creation in Ovid's Metamorphoses and Genesis

 

Two Sources Cited       "Where did man come from? Where did time begin? Who, or what, created

all things?"  These are questions that mankind has sought to answer from the

beginning of existence as it is known today.  Many stories and fables have been

told and passed down from generation to generation, yet two have survived the

test of time and criticism.  The Biblical account in Genesis,  probably written

by Moses around 1500 B.C.,
and the story of creation and flood in Ovid's

Metamorphosis, written somewhere between 8 and 17 A.D
., have weathered the

criticism and become the most famous.  The Genesis account, however, may be the

most prominent of the two accounts.  Within these accounts, are many

similarities, as well as differences, which make these two writings well

respected, while holding their own in the literary world.

 

      Though both accounts of the creation and flood are well respected on

their own, when compared side to side, they are drastically different.  Ovid's

purpose for writing the creation story is geared more towards explaining

creation as it happens, in his opinion,
whereas the Bible stresses the fact that

the God of the Hebrews is responsible for the world's existence today.
Overall,

Ovid is very detailed in explaining the formless mass, creation of the earth,

waters and land metaphorically.  The Biblical account seems to be more plain,

simple, and organized; not spending time on intricate detail.  There seems to be

no specific time frame for creation in Ovid's writing, whereas, the Bible states

that it takes God six days to complete His creation; resting on the seventh.  In

Metamorphoses, the creation story is seven stanzas, a compilation of eighty

lines.  It takes Moses thirty- one verses of Old Testament history to complete

his story of creation.

 

      There are a few discrepancies in detail as well.  The water, in Ovid's,

"[holds] up, [holds] in the land," while, in Genesis, the land "[separates] the

waters from the waters" (549; 1:9).  In Metamorphoses the air, land, light and

water (as humans know it) seems to form at one instant when "God, or kindlier

Nature, [settles] all"(549).  In Genesis however, light; heaven; land and

vegetation; stars, sun and moon; fish; animals and man are created on separate

days.

 

      Though these two writings are different in many respects, they are

strikingly similar as well.  Both are great and beautiful poems that continue to

stand the test of time.  They are also written for the purpose of explaining or

answering some question, whether that be who, what, or how time and existence,

as it is known today, came to pass.


 

      Both poems give credit for creation to a supreme being or supernatural

beings
.  Ovid states that "the gods, who [make] the changes, will help me--or I

hope so--with a poem"(548).  Genesis 1:1 states, "In the beginning God [creates]

the heavens and the earth."

 

      In both accounts, each describe a "shapelessness" and the earth being

"formless and void
"(549;1:2). There is also "no sun to light the universe,"(Ovid,

549) so "darkness [is] over the surface of the deep"(Genesis 1:2).  There is

also water, but "water, which no man [can] swim," in both accounts(Ovid, 549).

In Genesis, the "Spirit of God [is] moving over the surface of the water,"

before any of creation exists(1:2).

 

      Much like the stories of creation in the Bible and Metamorphoses, the

accounts of the flood in each are very similar while holding firmly to their

differences.

 

     Like the creation story in Metamorphoses, the flood story gives no

specific time frame for the length of the flood
.  However, Genesis gives a

detailed time frame for this event.  The rains last "forty days and forty

nights"(7:12).  When the rain stops, "the water [prevails] upon the earth for

one hundred and fifty days"(7:24).  After ten months, the mountain tops [become]

visible(8:5).  At the end of one year, one month, and twenty- seven days, Noah,

his family, and the various animals exit the ark
(8:13-18).  Another very obvious

difference is the descriptiveness in Ovid's story, whereas Moses simply explains

that all are breathing creation dies, except for those set aside by God.

 

      The biggest difference between these two account comes in explaining

existence after the flood.  In Metamorphoses, Deucalion and Pyrrha, the two

survivors, throw stones over each of his and her shoulder.  The stones that

Deucalion throw become men, and the ones that Pyrrha toss, turn into women
(Ovid

559).  In Genesis all of the earth is populated by Noah, his wife, Shem, Ham,

Japheth, along with their wives
(9:1,7).   In Ovid's tale, the animals of the

earth form, or evolve, from heat and water amongst the mud
(559).  The creatures

of the earth repopulate themselves in Genesis(8:17).


 

      Just as these stories have had their differences, they also share

features and qualities. The flood, in each story, is sent upon mankind because

of immorality and disobedience to God or the gods in which the subjects worship.


It is also very strange that the deity, or deities, in control, decide to

destroy mankind with flooding
.  In both accounts, only one family is "chosen" or

"spared" to continue existence of the human race.  In Metamorphoses it was

Deucalion and Phyrrha.  And Noah's family is chosen by God in Genesis.  Both

families seem to be in a right standing with God, or the gods, when the flood

occurs.
  It is very interesting to notice that in both accounts, as soon as the

families are delivered safely from the flood, each worship and show reverence to

God, or the gods, in ultimate control(556; 8:20-22).  Also, both accounts of the

flood, give some explanation, though very different, for the survival of the

human race and animal species.

 

      As one can see, when comparing each of the accounts of the flood and

creation in Ovid's Metamorphoses and Genesis, there are some very similar

actions or events that take place in each of these accounts, while separating

themselves a great deal by putting emphasis on very different messages.  It is

because of these variations in writing and technique that each of these poems

have acquired and maintained the respect they truly deserve through many years

of evaluation and criticism.

 

Works Cited

 

New American Standard Bible.  Nashville, TN: Broadman 1977.

 

Ovid.  Metamorphoses.  The Norton Anthology of World Masterpieces.  Ed. Maynard

Mack.  5th edition.  New York: Norton 1987.  549-560.

 
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What I found really interesting is how Ovid yet again, uses another form of creating man and woman, by Deucalion and Pyrrha, the two survivors throwing stones over each of his and her shoulder.  Whereas, in Genesis it stays consistent with God the creator, and man and woman procreating.

Ovid just seems all over the place with this poem.  If I didn't know any better I would think he was high on opium when he wrote it........  Just kidding.   ;D

Ginny, yes the Lombardo version is very beautifully translated.  I like yours much more than mine. 

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__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #348 on: February 03, 2016, 01:36:29 AM »
Dryden's translation, is not nearly as beautiful as Lombardo's

Dryden

"One climbs a cliff; one in his boat is born:
And ploughs above, where late he sow’d his corn.
Others o’er chimney-tops and turrets row,
And drop their anchors on the meads below:
Or downward driv’n, they bruise the tender vine,



Mandelbaum

"One man seeks refuge on a hill, another__
rows in his curving boat where, just before,
he's plowed; one sails across his fields of grain
or over the submerged roof of his villa;
sometimes an anchor snags in a green meadow;
sometimes a curving keel may graze the vines....
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #349 on: February 03, 2016, 07:39:03 AM »
I think Lombardo wins on that particular passage.  Here's Martin, also pretty good, and he gets off a good pun:

One takes to the hills, another to his skiff,
rowing where once he plowed the earth in rows,
while yet another sails above his grainfields,
or glimpses, far below, his sunken villa;
and here in the topmost branches of an elm
is someone casting out a fishing line;
an anchor grazes in a meadow's grasses,
or a curved keel sweeps above a vineyard,

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #350 on: February 03, 2016, 07:44:20 AM »
Bellamarie, that's a very thorough, useful comparison of the Bible and Ovid.

There's another important ancient flood story.  Has anyone read Gilgamesh?

Frybabe

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #351 on: February 03, 2016, 08:28:54 AM »
Yes! Gilgamesh!

chase31

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #352 on: February 03, 2016, 10:19:16 AM »
I remember seeing a program a couple of years or so that speculated that many flood legends around the Mediterranean stemmed from a possible massive deluge from the Black Sea due to the melt off of the end of the Ice age.  It is a controversial theory but seems to have some scientific evidence. 

Here are a couple of links.
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/evidence-suggests-biblical-great-flood-noahs-time-happened/story?id=17884533

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2000/12/122800blacksea.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #353 on: February 03, 2016, 11:39:06 AM »
chase after we read in For Love of Lakes about the gigantic lake Agassiz that finally breached widening a stream to the great Mississippi and all the northern lakes where the ice age had eroded rock leaving pockets of lake water it seems very reasonable that the flood often mentioned in several creation stories could have been just that - the breaching of the Black Sea.

Found several sites that give us a run down on the various creation myths  - this one is nicely organized with a brief synopsis of the various myths
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?ParagraphID=bjh

And I like this one since is includes a couple of the myths from our native American tribes. Interesting both the Blackfoot myth and the Navajo myth include a flood - I wonder from which continent - when, I wonder in history where these myths started - both tribes could have been affected by the Agassiz breach or do the go back to a time before the crossing into America - although now we are hearing the crossing may be a myth we have created that ancient skeletons found on the west coast of South America are far older than anyone imagined and now the thought is the tribes in North American could have come for the people in South America.

Anyhow here is the second link again with a synopsis of the creation myth that all are more elaborate than simply saying a God power did it all. 
http://listverse.com/2014/01/11/10-creation-myths-as-strange-as-the-bible/
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #354 on: February 03, 2016, 11:55:01 AM »
Reaction - at least the Norse myth does not include gods eating their offspring or creating a shame based society. Even the caste system has at its core a worthy and non-worthy grouping that is shame based.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #355 on: February 03, 2016, 01:04:21 PM »
Chase, thanks for reminding us of the Black Sea story.  It's exciting to think they might pin down that particular flood.

Barb, it's indeed interesting that some of the Native Americans have flood stories too.

now we have creation stories from around the world.

bellamarie

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #356 on: February 03, 2016, 01:09:02 PM »
PatH., 
Quote
Has anyone read Gilgamesh?

No, I have not, but will put that on my TBR list.

Well, look what I found on Gilgamesh!!  A very interesting article.

http://creation.com/noahs-flood-and-the-gilgamesh-epic

While researching, I found there are at least, 10,000 or more writings on the creation and flood. 

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

chase31

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #357 on: February 03, 2016, 01:20:33 PM »
I also wonder if the importance put to all these flood legends and myths could be to a cleansing or rebirth, as in baptism or other ritual baths.

bellamarie

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #358 on: February 03, 2016, 01:45:40 PM »
Chase, very good point and I so agree.

I have no doubt the purpose and meaning for all the floods are due to cleansing and rebirth, and with those come new hope.  Whether you believe in a God who controls all nature and beings, Norse myth, or you scientifically see it happening as in the book For Love of Lakes, etc., essentially either way it happens, it does in fact bring about a cleansing and rebirth.  Just look at the seasons changing and the saying, "April showers, bring May flowers."  Every rain shower brings a cleansing, even though I might add a bit too much rain does indeed create extreme problems of ruin, as it did to my basement last June, and other situations around the states.  But once it stopped, and I cleaned and renovated my basement, which took months to do, I look at the finished product and am in awe of how beautiful it is now!  Just as I am sure God saw the earth, after the aftermath of the flood.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Ovid's Metamorphoses
« Reply #359 on: February 03, 2016, 03:16:18 PM »
Thanks, Bellamarie, that link saves me from having to summarize the Gilgamesh flood story.  Most of the story is there, but I'll add a few details.  The poem is both incomplete and exists in several versions.  In one, the reason the gods want to get rid of mankind is they have become too numerous, and are making too much noise.

The gods had a council, as in Ovid, and swore not to tell mankind what was going to happen, but the god Ea managed to leak it to Utnapishtim, who got his whole town to help him build his cubical boat.  U. took a lot of people with him, including many craftsmen, so he could remake civilization.

When the gods saw the violence of the catastrophe they regretted what they had done, but some were still mad at Ea for saving some people.  Ea urged the other gods to be more moderate in their punishments from then on.

Utnapishtim and his wife were granted eternal life, and Gilgamesh tracked him down to learn the secret.