Author Topic: Ovid's Metamorphoses (Read 116472 times)

ginny · « **Reply #40 on:** January 07, 2016, 11:44:37 AM »

Panoramic Hubble Picture Surveys Star Birth, Proto-Planetary Systems in the Great Orion Nebula

Metamorphosis. We all know what it is every time we look in the mirror.

And we are all familiar with Midas Mufflers, and the Midas Touch. We eat cereal with no thought as to where the word originated, and we think of Pluto, Jupiter, Callisto, Saturn, Mercury et al. as only planets, but have you ever wondered where those names all came from, and what they really mean? We know what an echo is, but do we know who she was?

2000 years ago Ovid wrote an epic poem called The Metamorphoses, about change and transformation. He was the favorite poet of the Renaissance, and influenced Chaucer, Shakespeare, Spenser, Marlowe, and Milton.

When did you last read him? Here's your chance! Why not join us in a bold new experiment in the New Year with something old and something new, (for us) : Ovid's Metamorphoses, Book I? It's available free, online, and can be read in 1/2 hour. We'll compare translations and see which we think is best and enjoy talking about the issues it raises. Come join us!

(The Lombardo translation is highly recommended, but there are tons of them available online, free. Here is a sampling, or please share with us another you've found which you like:)

---http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088---Translated by A.S. Kline...(This one has its own built in clickable dictionary)...

---http://classics.mit.edu /Ovid/metam.html...---Translated by Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden, et al

---- http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html----Translated by Brookes More

Family Tree of the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome:

-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm

-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm

Week One: January 21-? Chaos and Order:

Bk I:1-20 The Primal Chaos
Bk I:21-31 Separation of the elements
Bk I:32-51 The earth and sea. The five zones.
Bk I:52-68 The four winds
Bk I:68-88 Humankind

Some things to think about:

1. How is this creation story like and unlike other creation stories?
2. The god that creates the world isn't named, and it's not clear whether mankind was created by a god or the forces of nature. Why do you think it's said this way?
3. What is the shape of the newly created world?
4. Why did Ovid settle on "changes" as the theme of his poem?
5. What do you know about Ovid? What else did he write?

Discussion Leaders: PatH and ginny

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ginny · « **Reply #41 on:** January 07, 2016, 11:45:56 AM »

Welcome, Hepeskin and Tom! It's really a joy to see all of you here.

hullwmr · « **Reply #42 on:** January 08, 2016, 08:22:52 AM »

A question-How many days/weeks will the discussion of the Ovid last? Also, I have an interest in a continuing discussion of books centering around the Greco-Roman world. Is there any chance of this? Bill

PatH · « **Reply #43 on:** January 08, 2016, 12:00:46 PM »

Good questions. The book discussions are considerably more free-form than a class, which has to have a schedule. We'll start the actual discussion on the 21st, and go through February. How far will we get in the book? That depends on how fast we go. We'll divide up Book I into a schedule and see how long it takes us, then do as much as we can fit in. If there is enough interest, we could go longer than planned.

PatH · « **Reply #44 on:** January 08, 2016, 12:13:53 PM »

Quote from: hullwmr on January 08, 2016, 08:22:52 AM

Also, I have an interest in a continuing discussion of books centering around the Greco-Roman world. Is there any chance of this? Bill

We do discuss such books from time to time. We've already read the Iliad and the Odyssey, some selections from Plutarch, and three Greek plays by different authors, centering about a common theme.

In general, choice of books to discuss depends on a combination of what people suggest, what the discussion leaders are willing to lead, and having enough interested people to make for a good discussion.

bellamarie · « **Reply #45 on:** January 08, 2016, 12:55:13 PM »

Halcyon, "As you said their personal lives were a mess thus I've given their story a name "As the world turns all my bold and beautiful and young and restless children search for tomorrow at the edge of night"

I absolutely LOVE this and might I add my two favorites, Days Of Our Lives, and General Hospital. I'm sure with your creativity you can link them in.

WOW! How exciting to see so many of Ginny's Latin students joining us. WELCOME to you all. I may have bitten off a bit more than I can chew, since I know very very little of this genre, and little to no Latin, other than what I have used at Mass from time to time. Such as: Kyrie Eleison, Christe Eleison, Kyrie Eleison (Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy, Lord have mercy), which just today I find out it is not Latin at all.....but GREEK! Well, now I have learned something new and we have yet to begin this book!

Although during Lenten Season I do recall we use Latin for the Acclamation of Faith: The priest will say "Mysterium fidei!" (The Mystery of Faith!) and we all respond, "Mortem tuam annuntiamus, Domine, et tuam resurrectionem confitemur, donec venias." (We proclaim Your death, O Lord, and confess Your resurrection, until You come.)

I'm very excited to get started!

Ciao for now~ I do know my Italian a bit.

PatH · « **Reply #46 on:** January 08, 2016, 01:01:17 PM »

Latin isn't needed for this. I don't know any either.

Halcyon · « **Reply #47 on:** January 08, 2016, 01:46:06 PM »

Bellamarie, When I was a girl I spent lots of time at my best friend's house; he had six siblings, I had none. Running in after school we would often find his mom ironing while watching a soap opera. Sometimes she would be crying. Of course that would send us into a fit of the giggles which only ended when she banished us from the house! She was the hardest working woman I ever knew.

This book will be fun.

bellamarie · « **Reply #48 on:** January 08, 2016, 02:11:33 PM »

Halcyon, My Mom watched soaps her entire life, we too would come in from school, and because she had an injured back which did not allow her much movement, she enjoyed sitting watching her soaps and would shush us if we got too loud to where she could not hear them. I began watching with her as a teen, and have watched Days of Our Lives and GH since. I knew when my Mom was in the hospital and refused to turn on her soaps she was not doing well. It made me sad, because I knew how much enjoyment they brought to her. She died shortly after that, and I keep watching because just the lead in music makes me think of her, and all the Days of Her Life.

JoanK · « **Reply #49 on:** January 08, 2016, 05:04:15 PM »

When I was 6, I got Scarlet Fever. this was before antibiotics, so I had to be isolated in a room by myself for weeks (it seemed like weeks, anyway. I had little to do, so I used to watch Soap Operas on the radio (this was before TV). The one that would be perfect for us was called "One Man's Family". All the characters were related, and they were always getting into trouble, and quarrelling with each other. The Greek/Roman gods remind me of that.

I never got straight who was who and their relationship in the soap opera: hopefully I'll do better with the gods. I would like to think the gods are more mature than the soap characters, but unfortunately not.

JoanK · « **Reply #50 on:** January 08, 2016, 05:23:12 PM »

I'm thinking about how to get "General Hospital" into our name. Google tells me "hospital" is from the Latin word for hospitable and "general" from the Latin word for "of a group" (check me out, Latin students).

How about: "As the world turns all my bold and beautiful and young and restless children from one mans family search for tomorrow from a generally hospitable place at the edge of night"

NAH. It doesn't have the ring of the original.

Halcyon · « **Reply #51 on:** January 08, 2016, 11:32:37 PM »

JoanK, maybe not but somehow it works. Haha.

ginny · « **Reply #52 on:** January 09, 2016, 03:55:21 PM »

Soap Operas. Why do they call them "soap?" hahaha I've never watched one, unfortunately, but one of my relatives was actually in one; he was "the doctor" in the long running TV soap The Doctors. He won an Emmy. Here he is with the pipe in his mouth:

You can tell this was a long time ago.

He was born in 1922 in Lenoir, NC, and played Dr. Matt Powers, the star of the show. I think he was also in other soaps, too. What I do know about him is kind of a family legend, that during the show if he had to say I'll call Dr. XXX, or Dr. YYY, he'd substitute the names of the physicians in our own family. He'd say "I'll call Dr. McNairy," (my grandfather)...(and also my great aunt) and it was kind of a fun private joke.

Just a little trivia meaning nothing while waiting to win 900 million dollars tonight.

bellamarie · « **Reply #53 on:** January 09, 2016, 04:05:50 PM »

JoanK., I actually like your creation and if you don't mind I'll give it a shot and add my other favorite soap.

"As the world turns, all my bold and beautiful and young and restless children from one man's family search for tomorrow from the halls of General hospital, hoping to come to a peaceful place at the edge of night, all the days of our lives."

As for the gods being more mature, I think not either.

Ginny, To answer you question, they were called "soap" operas because the ads were to sell soap detergent, and dish soap to all the women listening to and watching them all day long. I mean how many of us who did watch were either doing our laundry, ironing, folding clothes, putting them away, or doing dishes as we listened in the background? "Operas" because of all the drama!! Hee hee...

OMG Ginny, I watched The Doctors until it went off the air! I've got my 5 lottery tickets with my fingers crossed, a girl can hope. Good luck!!

JoanK · « **Reply #54 on:** January 09, 2016, 04:13:14 PM »

Will you all still love us when you're millionaires?

PatH · « **Reply #55 on:** January 10, 2016, 12:03:49 PM »

Chuckle. I can't believe how ingenious you all are.

Yes, these gods would be right at home in a soap opera. And these stories have lasted for millennia, and been the inspiration for a lot of the great literature of the Western world.

What does that say to you? Will we see why as we read them?

bellamarie · « **Reply #56 on:** January 12, 2016, 04:02:53 PM »

JoanK., Yes, of course I would stick around if I won. I still will need food for thought, and money won't satisfy my mind the way a good book does. But no fear here, I guess God intends me to live comfortably and humble. I had no luck with the lottery. But on the bright side it is now up to 1.3 Billion. Saw this on Facebook:

Could you just imagine this!!

Oh PatH., I finally got a chance to read Book 1 and I can say without a doubt these gods would fit right into my soaps.

Halcyon · « **Reply #57 on:** January 12, 2016, 05:59:12 PM »

Too bad the math is wrong. Everyone in the US would receive about $4.00 each! Hopefully the winner will do good things with the money.

PatH · « **Reply #58 on:** January 12, 2016, 06:18:35 PM »

Indeed. The Facebook poster has decimal point issues.

bellamarie · « **Reply #59 on:** January 12, 2016, 08:10:04 PM »

Good catch! I didn't take the time to do the math.....sorry.

Mkaren557 · « **Reply #60 on:** January 14, 2016, 10:25:33 AM »

When I was a little girl and was home from school sick, I would lie on my mother's bed and listen to Ma Perkins, Our Gal Sunday, Stella Dallas and every evening after Gabriel Heater and World News Tonight, I would listen to One Man's Family. I loved those stories. Somehow the magic for me was lost when they left the radio and came on TV.

ginny · « **Reply #61 on:** January 14, 2016, 07:38:09 PM »

Oh I love old time radio, I listen to it all the time when commuting, there's a channel on Sirius which plays the shows all day long. I love the old Sherlock Holmes with Basil Rathbone from the war years which have all the patriotic messages and commercials in them, they were SO clever. Harry Bartel. Commercials for Petri wine, it's like a piece of living history. Johnny Dollar, Suspense, wonderful stuff.

collierose · « **Reply #62 on:** January 15, 2016, 12:39:23 PM »

Hello Ginny,

Hope it's not too late to be included in the discussion. This sounds very interesting and I will try to do as much as I can, even if I just peek in everyday.

PatH · « **Reply #63 on:** January 15, 2016, 03:12:01 PM »

Plenty of time collierose, the discussion starts the 21st. Welcome. I think you'll enjoy it.

collierose · « **Reply #64 on:** January 15, 2016, 08:47:43 PM »

Thanks PatH. I think I will too.

Roxania · « **Reply #65 on:** January 17, 2016, 03:20:54 PM »

Thank you for the charts--very helpful. It does get to be a mess, doesn't it? What with Minerva branching out from Jupiter with no mom, and Jupiter getting around all over the place. Had to google Juventia--apparently a goddess of youth, the equivalent of Hebe. Surprisingly enough, when I googled her, several Twitter names came up, so she is apparently alive and well (and presumably young) on the internet.

JoanK · « **Reply #66 on:** January 17, 2016, 03:27:56 PM »

Goddesses on the internet. who knew?

But there is a very popular children's book author (Percy Jackson, I think?) who writes stories about the Greek and Roman gods. So my grandchildren will grow up knowing this heritage.

Frybabe · « **Reply #67 on:** January 17, 2016, 03:50:32 PM »

JoanK, Percy Jackson is the protagonist in the series written by Rick Riodan. He also wrote other Greek and Roman god/demigod books.

JoanK · « **Reply #68 on:** January 17, 2016, 03:53:03 PM »

Thanks, FRYBABE. Are the books good?

Frybabe · « **Reply #69 on:** January 17, 2016, 04:28:04 PM »

Well, I don't know, but they sure get a workout at the library, and they made two movies two movies from the books.

Interesting to note that Riodan started writing children's books when he wrote some as bedtime stories for his eldest son, Haley, who had been diagnosed ADHD and Dyslexic. I don't see any recent info about Haley, but he started college in Boston several years ago and has written at least one short story that is incorporated into one of Rick Roidan's books. The story, "Son of Magic", has gotten good reviews.

PatH · « **Reply #70 on:** January 17, 2016, 05:01:50 PM »

If you remember that Riordan's books are aimed at middle school to high school readers, with suitable humor, they are quite good. I've read most of the Percy Jackson series. If you subtract out the adaptations the gods had to make to modern life (Mount Olympus now hovers invisibly over the Empire State Building, and you get there by knowing how to gimmick the elevator to go to the 600th floor) the mythology is pretty accurate.

It's interesting that Haley is ADHD and Dyslexic. Many of the main characters in the books are too. This is because they're demigods, the offspring of gods or goddesses and mortals, and their brains are hard-wired for Ancient Greek and their perceptions are unusual. It gets them into a lot of trouble in school. They tend to have the skills of the immortal parent; Percy Jackson, son of Poseidon/Neptune, can't be drowned and can talk to horses.

Dana · « **Reply #71 on:** January 17, 2016, 07:13:47 PM »

well its great that the old myths are still going strong I suppose, The Heroes got me permanently hooked,... but how important is it all really,.... we have other myths now or might invent them ......

PatH · « **Reply #72 on:** January 17, 2016, 07:26:08 PM »

I think we're going to find out that it is important. These myths have survived for valid reasons.

That will be a good thing to chew over when we get going.

bellamarie · « **Reply #73 on:** January 19, 2016, 12:00:30 PM »

I agree PatH., myths have survived over the centuries and I believe it's because they are based on political, moral, canon and religious beliefs, which we still debate today.

In Rome's earliest period, history and myth have a mutual and complementary relationship.[7] As T.P. Wiseman notes:

The Roman stories still matter, as they mattered to Dante in 1300 and Shakespeare in 1600 and the founding fathers of the United States in 1776. What does it take to be a free citizen? Can a superpower still be a republic? How does well-meaning authority turn into murderous tyranny?[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_mythology

ginny · « **Reply #74 on:** January 19, 2016, 01:24:02 PM »

Oh well done, Bellamarie, you picked a winner in T.P. Wiseman. Do you know who he was? He was J.K. Rowling's classics professor at Exeter and a lot of people say he was the model for Dumbledore in her Harry Potter series. (He says he can't see it). Choosing him shows good instincts.

He's my favorite classicist other than Mary Beard.

Welcome, welcome, ALL! Super question, Dana, how provocative, love it. What a statement, Howard, " Cosmogony, whether scientific or religious, is very hard to think about..." we are going to want to hear more about cosmogony. A lot more.

For those of you who have not been in our book club discussions before, a warm and hearty welcome! We are so looking forward to hearing your views about this puzzling poem, and discussing ideas with you.

Here's how it works: We'll take Book I in small increments and we'll put up the section we want to concentrate on for the week in the heading. And that's what we'll cover in that week. So we won't be discussing Phaethon or Arachne in week one.

We've got a LOT to discuss and focus on the first week and we'll list as many interesting avenues or opportunities for your thoughts in the heading (the top of the page where the illustration is) that pertain TO that reading we can think of.... and you can feel free to: give your opinions, or add your own idea of what would be interesting to talk about.

So feel free to talk to each other (please, if you don't, there will BE no "discussion") and enjoy bringing things here you think we would love to see and talk about.

We don't seek consensus or agreement, you are entitled to whatever opinion you have, and here's a secret: scholars are sharply divided over what the Metamorphoses really intends, so there IS no one answer. But there are a lot of questions. This is not a class, but we will bring to the table a lot of what is currently thought and you can see if it informs your view or if you prefer something else you read.

Oh, in choosing links to present here, please, given the state of the Internet, try not to quote from places of such dubious origin as: IamthesonoftheSungod.com and our info might be a lot more useful in the long run.

That's pretty much it! PatH and I will put up a section of the piece and some (what we hope) are provocative questions to start us off Thursday and we hope you will favor us with your thoughts.

Everyone is welcome!

PatH · « **Reply #75 on:** January 19, 2016, 03:04:43 PM »

Quote from: ginny on January 19, 2016, 01:24:02 PM

We don't seek consensus or agreement, you are entitled to whatever opinion you have, and here's a secret: scholars are sharply divided over what the Metamorphoses really intends, so there IS no one answer.

I like that, Ginny; we can all have our creative notions, and we're all of us right.

Kenneth · « **Reply #76 on:** January 19, 2016, 10:03:00 PM »

Is there room for one more?

PatH · « **Reply #77 on:** January 19, 2016, 10:31:24 PM »

Always room for one more. Lots of space on the internet.

Welcome, Kenneth.

bellamarie · « **Reply #78 on:** January 20, 2016, 01:21:57 PM »

Oh dear Ginny, I wish I could resoundedly say I knew who T.P. Wiseman was, and that was the reason I chose that particular quote, but in all honesty, I barely knew who Ovid was before this book was chosen for discussion. Glad to hear you know of him and like him. I am like a lost sheep, or shall I say lost star, with mythology, but if you lead me I will follow......

Welcome Kenneth, we are happy to have you and all the newbies to our discussion group. The more the merrier! Like the sky we have plenty of room for more stars to shine.

chase31 · « **Reply #79 on:** January 20, 2016, 01:23:50 PM »

I would like to join too if not too late.

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Author Topic: Ovid's Metamorphoses (Read 116472 times)