New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses

[BooksAdmin]

Metamorphoses, Part II: New Stories:

Philemon and Baucis

"Jupiter and Mercurius in the house of Philemon and Baucis"
by Peter Paul Rubens (1630/1633)
Kunsthistorisches Museum, Vienna

Translations Online:

A. S. Kline
(This one has its own built in clickable dictionary)~~~~~ Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden~~~~~ Brookes More
.

Family Trees of the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome:

Greek gods ~~~~~Roman gods

For Your Consideration:

What a wonderful sweet story that is and look at all the hidden elements.



1. First let's talk about   the wonderful feast and the exquisite tiny details. Ovid took a lot of time over this one.  Which one struck you most? That sounds like quite a nice dinner to be 2000+ years old. Is there anything there you would consider eating today?


2. What role do you think that Pirithoüs' skepticism of the power of the gods plays in setting up the story?

3. What in the description of the couple's preparation of the meal reminds you of such a couple today? What is different?

4. The ancient system of the Guest-Host hospitality was very important to the Romans. It is revealed in Homer's Odyssey and in the Iliad.  Guests were invited in, offered a bath or time to refresh, given dinner and THEN asked their story. It was considered the worst of manners to turn away a guest seeking refuge from the door. Imagine what would happen in 2016 if this were done?

---- What is the Roman sacred law of hospitality?

----What tradition for hospitality does this story remind you of?

-----In ancient Rome what is the difference between public or commercial hospitality and State hospitality as compared to home hospitality?

What does that say  to us about how far our own society has come? What ARE our standards of manners  today? Have table manners gone the way of the dodo? What do table manners symbolize, anyway?

5.  The detail of the dinner preparations  differs from those told in other authors in sumptuousness. How does Ovid reveal in the tiniest details the status of the old couple? What are some of the clues to their situation you can see in the story?

6. What does the incident with the goose add to the story? What does it tell you about Ovid?

7.  Ovid has pulled out all the stops in his poetry here. He even has a Golden Line to describe this poor yet pious couple and their piety. What might be a reason for this embellishment of their poverty?

8. The fare is quite poor by Roman standards.  Cabbage was considered a lowly vegetable by the Romans and they liked their meat fresh, not having hung from a rafter for a long time. The description of the wine alone would stun an ancient Roman. How would this meal differ from  an affluent Roman's table? Do you think Ovid is trying to symbolize something here? If so, what?

Philemon and Baucis; click here to read:

Bk VIII:611-678 Lelex tells of Philemon and Baucis
Bk VIII:679-724 The transformation of Philemon and Baucis.

Discussion Leaders: PatH,  Joan K

Marcie   Barbara and ginny

[Frybabe]

Oh here you are. Now off to read the new selection.

[ginny]

Yes, glad to see you here!  And tomorrow we'll start out with our brand new series, all new stories,  and this time we'll choose them  not by going straight through (there ARE 250 of them, after, all) but taking them as we like.

I like the idea of our voting together for the next one on one from  a couple of possibilities,  it might be fun and innovative, and different,  but for now we're going to look at Baucis and Philemon, a story which is unique to Ovid, and quite lovely.

Check out some possible questions for discussion in the heading and join us with your shamrocks on tomorrow for a new look at an old book, Ovid's Metamorphoses and the story of Baucis and Philemon.

We've had such a good discussion so far, we might just hit the pot of gold this time.



Everyone is welcome!

[BarbStAubrey]

Looking forward to our 'meeting like this' - see you tomorrow -now to rustle up something green to wear - not a big color for me.

[kidsal]

Looking up in my Classical Mythology book -- this is considered a flood story.

[marcie]

I'm so glad to be joining you all. I'm finding Ovid a wonderful storyteller. He provides such great details and intertwines everything so well. What an  interesting transition from the last part of a story about Perimele and how she was changed into an island into this story about Philemon and Baucis. You don't see, at first, the connection between "an oak and a lime tree standing side by side" and the island but you see it at the end of the story.


  " But as you can see for yourself, far off, far off one island vanishes, dear to me: the sailors call it Perimele. I loved her and stole her virginity. At which her father, unable to accept it, threw his daughter from the cliffs into the deep, intending to destroy her. I caught her, and holding her as she swam, I cried: ‘O God of the Trident, to whom rule over the restless waves, closest to earth, fell by lot, give your aid I beg, and grant a place to one whom a father’s anger drowns, or allow her to be that place herself!’ While I spoke, new earth clasped her body, as she swam, and a solid island rose, round her changed limbs.
Bk VIII:611-678 Lelex tells of Philemon and Baucis

    At this, the river-god fell silent. The wonder of the thing had gripped them all. But that daring spirit, Pirithoüs, son of Ixion, scornful of the gods, laughed at their credulity. ‘These are fictions you tell of, Acheloüs, and you credit the gods with too much power, if you think they can give and take away the forms of things.’ The others were startled, and disapproved of his words, Lelex above all, experienced in mind and years, who said: ‘The power of the gods is great and knows no limit, and whatever heaven decrees comes to pass. To help convince you, in the hills of Phrygia, an oak and a lime tree stand side by side, surrounded by a low wall. I have seen the place, since Pittheus, king of Troezen, sent me into that country, where his father Pelops once ruled. "

[Mkaren557]

"Philemon and Baucis" took me into the belief system in Ancient Rome.  I have always wondered what the gods and goddesses with their human-like qualities, good and bad, meant in the lives of the Romans themselves.  Clearly, Pirithous is a non-believer who laughs at believers.  Then there is Lelex, the narrator of the myth, who begins, "Immense is the power of heaven and knows no end."  is cautioning his listeners that it is the safest path in life is to believe and to listen to what the gods are asking and do their bidding.  Then there are Philemon and Baucis who have great faith in the gods and are devoted to them.  Everything they do honors the gods.  It seems then that much like today there is no one way that the Romans felt toward mythology.  It seems to me that "fear" of the power of the gods, motivates many and that "faith" in the sense that "God will provide." moves very few.   

[JoanK]

MKaren:" It seems to me that "fear" of the power of the gods, motivates many and that "faith" in the sense that "God will provide." moves very few."

That's a very interesting thought. The feeling I get from these myths is one of uncertainty. You never know what will happen next, so you sacrifice to the gods, and hope that will help, and if it doesn't, you must have forgotten some other god.

But the gods here are different. they spare the life of the goose (and the old couple's legs) even though they are about to drown everyone (including the goose, I imagine).

[JoanK]

I must admit my first thought on reading the meal preparation was "Oh, they flavored cabbage with pork then, too." A Roman recipe book.

[Mkaren557]

But with "long hung"bacon from the backbone.  It is appropriate to discuss cabbage on St. Patricks Day.  I wonder if cabbage has always been a low class vegetable.  I love it myself.

[Mkaren557]

I am reminded of Pascal's wager::
a. The Super-Dominance Argument

Pascal begins with a two-by-two matrix: either God exists or does not, and either you believe or do not.

--Table I--   God exists   God does not exist
You believe in God   (a) infinite reward   (c) 250 utiles
You do not believe in God   (b) infinite punishment   (d) 200 utiles
If God exists then theists will enjoy eternal bliss (cell a), while atheists will suffer eternal damnation (cell b). If God does not exist then theists will enjoy finite happiness before they die (say 250 units worth), and atheists will enjoy finite happiness too, though not so much because they will experience angst rather than the comforts of religion. Regardless of whether God exists, then, theists have it better than atheists; hence belief in God is the most rational belief to have.

To accept and believe in the powers of the gods and the mythology around them will bring more happiness whether the myths are true or not.  After all you never know when a god will come knocking on the door.

[ginny]

Gosh what wonderful thoughts here, I'm loving the discussion so far already!

MKaren:" It seems to me that "fear" of the power of the gods, motivates many and that "faith" in the sense that "God will provide." moves very few."

Joan K: That's a very interesting thought. The feeling I get from these myths is one of uncertainty. You never know what will happen next, so you sacrifice to the gods, and hope that will help, and if it doesn't, you must have forgotten some other god.

There used to be a wonderful set of series on youtube from the UK called Horrible Histories and Rotten Romans.   They are funny but they have a point under all of it.  They appeared on the BBC which has been very vigorous in the last 10 years in removing them. I am glad I saved the ones I did. There was a great one on Roman gods in which somebody going into battle came into the temple to pray to this or that Roman god for victory, and kept forgetting this or that minor god, and losing his temper,  and it was hilarious, he'd be reminded by the priest in the temple, oh  you forgot XXX, god of shoes, and he'd go back and say his chant again, while the battle raged on he had wanted to control and finally  gave up in anger, and ran out and was killed,  and the attendant at the temple said to him, as he staggered back in saying what happened, "oh,  we forgot XXX for Victory in Battle!"

They were well known for making a point under the satire. Pretty much along the same lines  you've just said, Joan K, and Karen.

But tho I have it on my computer, it's gone from youtube so we can't see it now.

Here's all I can find on youtube on this,  now, this one is silly but they did find hundreds of votives, tablets, at Bath, and many are on display there today, so there's some history behind the satire.

I almost hate to break the spell here with silliness,  but you're both  so on it!

Roman  Gods Direct from School Tube ]https://www.schooltube.com/video/83f072b61b314bb2b3f2/Horrible%20Histories:%20Roman%20Gods%20Direct] Roman  Gods Direct from School Tube

[ginny]

It's so interesting to me that you all are seeing different things in this story.

Sally says, "Looking up in my Classical Mythology book -- this is considered a flood story."

Marcie and Karen both  mention that beautiful line about the power of the gods being immense "Lelex above all, experienced in mind and years, who said: ‘The power of the gods is great and knows no limit, and whatever heaven decrees comes to pass.;"  And a wonderful discussion on  Roman religion or religion in general, Karen and JoanK!

Alan Griffin wrote a wonderful long essay a while ago about this story and pointed out all of the "religious motifs" which the story surrounds itself in, and there are a lot of them, including the sacred tree in a walled enclosure, the superhuman beings wandering the earth to test humans, the "motif" of entertaining the gods in an humble environment, the motif of miraculous replenishment as a sign of divine good will, the motif of a flood,  as divine punishment for human wickedness,  and the saving of  one pious couple, and the motif  of divine rewards for piety and hospitality." And that's only in the first two paragraphs of his article.

Motifs, that's an interesting word, have we ever considered them?

So that raises a really good question which I  didn't even think to bring up: what IS this story about?

The humble meal was used in satire a lot by the Romans whose literature,  as the Greek, concerned lavish feasts,  as shown in Homer, even in humble circumstances, but here we have what seems to me, in 2016, more than an adequate meal.

But several things about it would have been like Burger Barn  to the Romans, for instance the cabbage, as Karen brought up. I love cabbage, too, in any form, but apparently the Romans considered it a very  "lowly" vegetable, according to Anderson, and while I thought that was a pretty good recipe, too, JoanK, it appears the Romans would have been disgusted by meat  hung too long on a hook. They preferred their meat fresh.  So maybe this is why Baucis attempted to  catch the goose?


  I don't know anything about ancient methods of preservation, do any of you?  It might seem   the penchant of the  Romans  for the very strong garum, or fish sauce, sort of indicates it was useful to strongly savor the meat which may have turned a bit, but it may be that this bit of bacon wasn't the freshest thing in town. All this the old couple did before they realized who their guests were: then she  tried to catch the goose, which was apparently underfoot.

There seem to be a lot of things in this story, is there any one which stands out the most so far?.

[marcie]

Karen and Joan, both fear and faith do seem to be attitudes towards the gods in this story.

That's a very funny video, Ginny, to highlight the polytheism of the Romans.  You bring up the question of what the story is about. As we've seen from the posts so far, I think we each see different features in the story. On the face of it, Lelex says that he's going to tell a story "to help convince" the skeptic Pirithoüs that "the power of the gods knows no limits." Lelex has seen the place where two trees stand, side by side, and the origin story of the trees involves a god's act of transforming people, similar to the actions that Pirithoüs has questioned. As we read the details of the story it will be fun to share lots of things we think the story is about.

[BarbStAubrey]

Evidently there were sacred geese kept in Rome and associated with Mars as war and as a symbol of fertility.

I wonder the weighing scale between fear and faith - fear of what - faith for what - to stop the change that we all experience - the Metamorphose??? He shows in each story a change so fantastical it appears as fairy tales like this married couple turning into entwining trees - Trees of knowledge??? Trees of life??? The Cosmic Tree??? The Singing Tree???

The Oak is the symbol for the sky God Jupiter or Zeus - The Linden is symbolic for beauty and conjugal love. 

In a time when the earth was a flat disk floating above water, while many in the west thought to be held up by huge tree trunks - and a sky that was thought to be a bowl that would leak from time to time - with the fear the bowl would spring a huge leak so that all would drown and no knowledge of what made the sun rise and set or the wind blow cold or warm - much less to understand where feelings of love or rage originate - the mind and soul are interchangeable, Aristotle names only 11 emotions - in such a world to give all this unknown flux many powers beyond the power of a human seems reasonable. And yet, to infuse these powers with behavior a human can understand seems to me to be no different than today we give the Judo-Christian God the attributes of a human.

Even the Judo-Christian God is at times described as capable of fearful horrors - turning people into salt - flooding and drowning all but a handful - damning and opening a sea for a short period of time. Seems to me fear of the unknown would be a constant companion so that faith in something more powerful allowed folks to get on with it...

Instead of one God working 'His' magic from afar, creating earth, water, sun etc. rather the Greek/Roman version is that each aspect of the universe and humanity is a God, formed from the chaos with a particular power. Reminds me of the saints - each oversee a piece of life based on their experience during their life. 

Without a story as to how the sun, moon, waters, trees, humans came to be we humans would feel as if in a nameless void - a continued chaos - as both Plato and Aristotle wondered if we could actually be dreaming constantly, instead of being in waking reality or, as Zhuangzi (369 BC) dreamed that he was a carefree butterfly, flying happily. After he woke up, he wondered how he could determine whether he was Zhuangzi who had just finished dreaming he was a butterfly, or a butterfly who had just started dreaming he was Zhuangzi. 

And so little by little every object and instinct was named with a story attached - order among the many meant stories of how to behave were as important as stories to explain the sun, thunder, storms, Spring, love, jealousy. This naming and these stories offered a 'known' that made faith balance fear - hmm I wonder, is that saying naming is part of faith or fitting a story to what we fear, is that part of faith - is faith in the known rather than the unknown?

Thinking about it, the gods mostly follow the habits of animals - with no formal ceremony animals mate, for various reasons eat their new born, live in groups of their own kind, fight among themselves, are part of a visible food chain that gives rational to, not only saving your own skin but for war. Many animals banish the males until the rut followed by mating and so we have gods who come and go in time to fight with each other and then mate with the most desirable female, animals hunt in packs and share the kill according to prowess, few live solitary lives. 

I am smiling thinking and wondering if a One God holed up in his lair placing a sun in its orbit and stars in the sky and trees growing out of the earth and then creating man is the next step up from gods copying the behavior of animals - is the one God concept a little more couth, less barbaric, more mannerly...   

[BarbStAubrey]

this is wonderful for those who would like to see this story translated from the Latin -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ojR3TUmA40

[Frybabe]

More sillyness. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1acAxgnacu4

It appears that YouTube has a bunch of Philemon and Baucis clips. Many are amateur productions with many of those producted for school projects.

Bits of Philemon and Baucis, an opera, by Joseph Haydn.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGmh0_Z0gdI&list=PLUSRfoOcUe4bTAmM5su46rmKSoPt5igSB Charles Gounod was also inspired to do an opera based on the story.

[Halcyon]

Philemon and Baucus is a wonderful love story,  The old couple married in that cottage and remain there still, seemingly satisfied with their lot in life and especially with each other.  How often does that happen?  It reminded me of the recent stories of Nancy and Ronnie Reagan who wanted their caskets buried very close together.  Barb mentioned fear of thunder which reminded me of a childhood story that God was just rearranging furniture when it thundered.  There was also the fear of placing another book on top of a bible; if that was done you were doomed.  It seems silly now but as a kid it was scary stuff.  I wonder how many choices of belief the Romans had?  Was it either belief in the gods and goddesses or not?  Today, it seems, there is a belief system for everyone.  More choices, more fears?

Frybabe Love the Lego version of the story!

[BarbStAubrey]

There are one silly after the other on YouTube isn't there - the one in German is a riot...

Not going to say much - cannot believe what I did - got up during the night last night and whatever in the world I did I was bang crash on the floor and really hurt my tail - broke my tail bone years ago so glory only knows what I have damaged - but pain and trying to sit is a big challenge - no nerve damage so defiantly not more than the tail bone but its more Aleve and flat, probably the floor for at least today and maybe tomorrow - thank goodness my buyers are out of town this weekend - till later...

[PatH]

Barb, oh dear, for goodness sake.  Please get yourself checked out to make sure you haven't broken anything.

[JoanK]

Yes, BARB, do. We'll still be here when you get back.

MKAREN: I love that calculation by Pascal! How completely logical! (Except he left out the possibility that one would believe God exists but also be terrified you were unworthy and were damned. That's worth minus 500 utiles. Presumably, Pascal was too self confident to think of that).

[Dana]

Cato was a great lover of cabbage.  Also he said cabbage urine was supposed to fortify babies and cure patients bathed in it .  Pliny however said it (cabbage) was "nothing special."  Appicius has a recipe for cabbage leaves, garum, wine and oil.  Pliny adds soda to the recipe to preserve the colour.  Cato recommended eating raw cabbage and vinegar before drinking heavily at a feast......then....."you can drink as much as you like."

[marcie]

Barbara, I'm so sorry about your fall. I hope that you feel better soon and that you didn't break anything.

Halcyon, you're right. This is a wonderful love story with such a special relationship between Philemon and Baucus.

Dana, that's fun information about cabbage.

[JoanK]

Who knew the humble cabbage had such properties. Wish I'd seen that sooner -- I had cabbage for dinner last night.

Ovid does a masterful job of adding little touches that take you into the world of the elderly couple. The short table leg, the "best" dish that is still cheap, and the only goose, that they were probably depending on for eggs, but were willing to  sacrifice for guests, if they could catch it. Again, we have pathos and humor together, as in the description of the cow.

Is that Ovid? he cant feel sorry for someone without making fun of them a little too?

[BarbStAubrey]

Evidently it was only the turn of the last century Cabbage was considered to be the vegetable of poor people.

Greeks and Romans placed great importance on the healing powers of cabbage. They held that the vegetable could cure just about any illness.

Roman mythology holds that cabbages sprung from the tears of Lycurgus, King of the Edonians of Thrake who attacked Dionysos when the god was travelling through his land instructing men in the art of winemaking or, in another version of the tale, while the god was still a child in the care of the Nymphs of Mount Nysa. As the troupe fled, Lykourgos struck down the god's nurse Ambrosia with his axe The rest dived into the sea where they were given refuge by the goddess Thetis.

As punishment for his crime, Lykourgos was inflicted with madness and in this crazed state slew his wife and sons.

Emperor Claudius called upon his Senate to vote on whether any dish could surpass corned beef and cabbage.

And so I wonder if they were really offering the best food to the gods rather than a poor man's food.

[kidsal]

Why a flood story?  “There is a swamp with a 1000 people living nearby who are evil and will not receive the gods. But the aged couple (Noah) do receive them.  After the dinner (preparing the ark) they are told to leave their home.  The gods then Flood the swamp and destroy all living there except the elderly couple who now guard the temple and new world.

[ginny]

Isn't it wonderful that such a little story, so simple, can have so many ramifications as to what it's about?

Another flood story, that's clear in Sally's quote here, but it's not a universal flood, the entire world is not flooded, is it? And we've not got a boat, no Noah, but everything but their own house which has become a temple is flooded in the town.  If Sally had not put that here, I doubt I'd have focused on that, because to me it's about something else, and I just love that it can be so many different things. There's no doubt there's a flood, tho.

I heard  a speech once that  the real sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was not receiving the poor who were outside the walls, that was the main offense. I have sort of held on to that ever since but it may in fact be only one man's opinion.  But it rings true here too. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed but not by a flood.

Why a flood for the village Baucis and Philemon live in, one wonders? Why not fire?

Joan K mentions the gods wilfulness here in killing everything including the goose they saved. What an interesting point. Could the goose have flown away? Or could it have been taken up by the gods themselves? Since they stopped the old couple from killing it themselves.

Ovid starts by saying their powers are immense and certainly they can transform as Marcie has said and here's the proof, so the entire story is one of proof of the powers of the gods, that's another thing it's about. So why would Ovid want to prove they are powerful?

Dana and Barbara (Barbara, good heavens, I am sorry for your fall! I hope nothing is broken!!!  And that you feel better. My parents always used to say don't do that you'll break your tail bone, I had no idea what that was or that it could be broken!)

But you and Dana and Joan K  and Karen mentioned the feast, cabbage particularly,  and Joan K mentions the humor when the old woman chases the goose, is Ovid making fun here of the piety of the old folks? If so why? Is the message piety wins out? So why the humor?  There's definitely humor in this thing, is it the ridiculousness  of life, that even in our best moments we are and can be seen as ridiculous by others?  Ovid's definitely got something going here. I have read that Caesar was famous for his sardonic wit. I looked that up to make sure what it was and it was not what I thought it was.  Would you call this sardonic?

Cabbage was a lowly vegetable, used in satires of Roman life, is this also sardonic?  Is it a satire? Dana, what a hoot on Cato, I had just read that two tsp of apple cider vinegar before a meal will lower blood sugar 4 points. Maybe THAT'S the reason Cato was so sour? hahaha

Barbara asks if they really did put out their best.  If you  have nothing else and you have just picked a fine cabbage in the garden, would that be as beloved as the "widow's mite" because she had nothing else? OR was Ovid saying something else entirely?

Halcyon and Joan K and Karen mentioned religious beliefs, do they have a choice? They had tons and tons of gods to choose from, is Ovid actually saying piety and simplicity is the way to go when every single thing he puts in here is a direct anathema to a normal Roman of his class. Is Ovid saying to the Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous that their way is not the way?

And Halcyon mentions the love story, and they are remarkably pious and loving, even when the gods don't have much nice to say to them, they get to be priests and not drowned.

more...

[ginny]

Frybabe, I LOVED your Lego Baucis and Philemon1 There are so many wonderful takes of mythology on the Internet,  I've saved that one, thank you.

I'm sure you've all seen this Hail Caesar trailer but when I think of Baucis and Philemon, it's what comes to mind: "Would that it were so simple." If you haven't seen this, enjoy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMUUKtF_BF0

Joan K mentioned the details. I think the story is in the details,myself. The descriptions of the house alone.  Just imagine yourself and your own home. The President of the United States is stranded in a snow storm and is going to take dinner with you so he doesn't starve.

Quick, what would you clean up? What would you serve? I can really get caught up in this one.  I remember an old Andy Griffith show when some important meeting was going to be held close by and they ended up eating in Andy's kitchen, with Aunt Bee serving humble food, chicken and biscuits, was it,  which the "Russians" loved,  and creating detente. The message of that program is the same, I think, as Ovid is sending to the Romans with whom he was familiar, in the hallowed halls of the Palatine: simplicity and piety (and maybe creativity) are what counts and you don't.

Their roof is held up by furcas. A forked stick holds the rafters  and the point is made when it turns into a temple,  Lombardo says,

Forked poles became columns,
The thatch grew yellow and became a golden roof...

The roof which was   straw and wattle or whatever, it's home made, is nothing like the elaborate roof structure of the Romans, with elaborate downspouts and tiles whether gilded or not.  The fire has nothing but ashes, they can't keep a steady fire, but now with guests, she blows on it to get it started again. Were there leaves? Did she break sticks into small pieces?

What's that old poem: heap on the wood, the wind is chill, we'll keep our Christmas merry, still.

There's no heaping here and no Presidents, and no Ambassadors from Russia, just two unknown travelers at the door.The wine is "of no great age," barely fermented grape juice.

I found particularly poignant the fruit course at the end of the meal:

Then a little space was made
For the dessert: nuts, wrinkled dried dates, plums.
And fragrant apples served in wide baskets
Along with purple grapes just picked from the vine,
A clear white honeycomb was set in the middle.
Besides all this, they brought to the table
Cheerful faces, high spirits, and abundant good will.

Wow.

That's beautiful.  What more do you want in the way of a dessert? We ought to read by comparison some of the dinners the  Romans Ovid associated with ate to see the contrast, their many courses of exotic food and drink.. The grade of the wine adjusted according to importance of the guest.  The silver table settings:When the wine started flowing continually Baucis and Philemon  prayed that they might be forgiven for the food they served and the poor surroundings.

Is there irony in this, too?

And then we have the goose episode with them both chasing it. "But the goose was swift on the wing and wore out/ The slow old people trying to catch it, dodging them/ For a long time and finally taking refuge/ With the gods themselves, who told them to let it live. "

Now I did laugh at that and at myself at the same time.  I don't  know how "old" this couple is. I don't know how "old" we all are here. Apparently the goose has the run of the house and they are trying to catch it. When is the last time YOU tried to catch a barnyard fowl of any kind? It's quite an effort and as Barbara said above they were used as watchdogs (and still are).  We had to catch one of our chickens a couple of months ago to treat a wound,  and finally got it in the chicken house where it made perfect fools of both of us. Anybody who has  ever tried to catch a chicken much less a goose knows this story. It's dear, to me. But did Ovid mean something else?



And this old poor couple, both servants and masters (the Romans ALL had slaves, at least one, unless they were penniless beggars at the door, this is extreme poverty to Ovid's readers)...

They put a cloth on the bench making a couch but they don't recline, oh  no, they run around and wipe the table, the ancient form of hospitality, come in, have a bath (I guess they don't have a tub she washes their feet with water they have warmed) have a meal, welcome in, and then tell us your story.

But the wine continues to replenish which is also an ancient concept.

I looked up "motif," to find out what it meant. I was hoping to find an authoritative source like Perdue but they don't mention it. Here;s the first thing I saw on the search page:

A motif is a recurring symbol which takes on a figurative meaning. We see them in books, films, and poems. In fact, almost every text commonly uses the literary device of the motif. A motif can be almost anything: an idea, an object, a concept, a character archetype, the weather, a color, or even a statement.

In sum: lots of questions, no answers:

If that's true the thing is FULL of motifs, but signifying what? Is there one you can pick out?

In our earlier readings of Ovid, the gods have not been exemplary. Why the change now?

And then there's the love story and what love really is. Which shows the greater love--to want to outlive your spouse so as to take care of him or her,  or to die at the same time?

What do you think Ovid's attitude toward the gods is from reading this story?

What, in fact, do you think about anything here?

[Mkaren557]

I have read and then reread this myth many times.  I also can't stop thinking about it.  Mostly I am struck by Ovid's portrayal of thee "old " couple.  Although they were very poor as evidenced by what they ate in the feast and the state of their house and the furniture, they gave of what they had to the "strangers" unlike all their neighbors.  And when the gods revealed themselves and Philemon and Baucis were offered anything they wanted, they asked to honor the gods by caring for the temple and to die together.  Their generosity and their devotion to the gods and to each other dominate this story.
     I remember going to a new church and the members of the congregation kept talking about their various ministries, e.g.  working in the soup kitchen, visiting the sick, or running the food bank.  I kept thinking inside that I didn't do anything like that and I kept trying to think of what I could work in to my crazy schedule.  Then someone asked me about my my life was like.  I described a day in the life of a single mother/high schoolteacher.  Then they asked me,"Have you ever considered that teaching is your ministry.  I started to protest that I couldn't teach all week and then teach Sunday school.  "No" said my friend,"I mean that the teaching you do everyday is a ministry."  From that day on, my teaching took on new meaning in my life. 

It is interesting that the Italian Benecict or Nurisa who lived in the sixth century BC when he found the monasteries that eventually became the Benedictine order, wrote the Rule that the monks follow today.  Included in that is a direction that every monk provide hospitality to strangers among their other practices.  That tells me that many Romans held hospitality as a high virtue.

Once again we have changing into trees as an act of the gods, yet this time it seems to be a blessing:  From here on Philemon and Baucis will be together side by side, just as they asked.

[JoanK]

 love the phrase (quoted from memory -- hope I have it right) "they took poverty lightly and so were happy". They were certainly "poor" by upper class Roman standards, but were they poor? They had food, a sturdy roof over their heads, and love.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who loves the goose story.

[JoanK]

I've begun watching that program on Discovery channel "Naked and Afraid." two people are dropped off in the middle of a jungle somewhere with no clothes, no food, and only two tools of their choice. They realize they need five things: shelter, fire, water, food, and to work together in friendship. Most of them suffer and barely squeak through the 21 days, but a few of them thrive, and begin making more elaborate shelter, clothes, more tools etc. They would all call our couple rich.

[BarbStAubrey]

My mother had a saying - they are only poor for having no money - and like she also would say - they are only rich for having money - to her there were far more aspects of life, character and skill that made us rich than the measurement of money and what it could buy - just having the skill, knowledge and fortitude to plant and harvest a cabbage to my mother would be more valuable than having the money to buy one or to buy any food grown by another.

These two could not be on the bottom rung of the economic ladder because they had a house and some land - they were not servants. They may not have been the plutocracy but they had to have been skilled if only as self-sufficient farmers.

Since cabbage was used by the Romans as an antidote to prevent or reduce a hangover and the gods were consuming the offered drinks could it have been the host and hostesses way of assuring them good health and a clear head rather than attempting to entertain a couple of drunken visitors...

Mkaren your realization that your work was 'good works' reminds me of growing up and being taught the story of the increasing of talents and how that was doing God's work.

Yep, broke just up from the tail bone - the sacrum - each day a bit more comfortable since that muscle of course was injured and that is what is healing quickly - lots of napping.

[marcie]

I too liked the story about the goose. It provided a bit of humor and showed that the couple were willing to sacrifice the "guard of their house" for the gods' dinner. I also like the line " It was no matter if you asked for owner or servant there: those two were the whole household: they gave orders and carried them out equally."  That line has a simple, straightforward tone like the rest of the story which suits the couple.

I was interested that Philemon asks that gods that he and his wife both be allowed to be priests. "When he had spoken briefly with Baucis, Philemon revealed their joint request to the gods. “We ask to be priests and watch over your temple..." I guess that the duties of watching over the temple were suitable for a woman to carry out as a priestess.

[BarbStAubrey]

Interesting Marcie the whole issue of swapping a 'guard' from the earth for the honor of a god who protects and to swap an individual home for a temple - can see traces of the Christian concept of our real home is within the protection of God and our soul resides within which is a temple to God - Easy to see the evolving philosophy to the Christian thinking... or maybe I just see the connection because I am privileged to know what comes next 

[JoanK]

MCKAREN:  I love the story of realizing that your teaching was your ministry. If only I had thought of that. And the laws of hospitality: how far we have gotten from that. The only remnant I can think of is part of the Jewish Passover service, where the householder goes to the door and asks any passing stranger to come in and partake of the feast. Even that is rarely taken literally now.

BARB: "My mother had a saying - they are only poor for having no money - and like she also would say - they are only rich for having money" Your mother was a wise woman.

[JoanK]

MARCIE: I never thought of the goose as a guard. Of course it was. the blend of pathos and humor here seems to be Onid's touch, doesn't it.

[Mkaren557]

Do you think we have run out of steam on this myth?  Maybe we need to move on. 

[ginny]

Yes, that's a good idea, sorry to be AWOL we have a little visitor here till tomorrow. I still have some thoughts to say on what you've all said but I can say them Sunday afternoon or Monday.

Yes, let's look at Echo and  Narcissus next. Here is Echo and Narcissus, a great story for this time of year: http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph3.htm#476975712

Let's start that Easter Monday, but  before that, let's all say what we think the moral of THIS story is?

That's a harder question than we might think.

Just ONE, the most important moral.

[BarbStAubrey]

You have to wonder which came first, Ovid's story about hospitality to strangers or a Roman practice of being hospital to strangers...

A few quotes that point to offering hospitality

“Hospitality means primarily the creation of free space where the stranger can enter and become a friend instead of an enemy. Hospitality is not to change people, but to offer them space where change can take place. It is not to bring men and women over to our side, but to offer freedom not disturbed by dividing lines.”
― Henri J.M. Nouwen

“There is no hospitality like understanding.”
― Vanna Bonta

“Whenever you go on a trip to visit foreign lands or distant places, remember that they are all someone's home and backyard.”
― Vera Nazarian

“True hospitality is marked by an open response to the dignity of each and every person. Henri Nouwen has described it as receiving the stranger on his own terms, and asserts that it can be offered only by those who 'have found the center of their lives in their own hearts'.”
― Kathleen Norris

“Take care to keep open house: Because in this way some have had angels as their guests, without being conscious of it ".
― Hebrews 13:2.”

“As a dinner guest I gratefully eat just about anything that's set before me, because graciousness among friends is dearer to me than any other agenda.”
― Barbara Kingsolver

[JoanK]

BARB: very nice. "“True hospitality is marked by an open response to the dignity of each and every person."