New Stories in Ovid's Metamorphoses

[ginny]

NEW! 

Pyramus and Thisbe:

Thisbe by John William Waterhouse 1909

Bk IV:55-92 Arsippe tells the story of Pyramus and Thisbe

http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph4.htm#478205189

Bk IV:93-127 The death of Pyramus
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph4.htm#478205190

Bk IV:128-166 The death of Thisbe
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph4.htm#478205191

What do you Think: Questions for Consideration or add your own:

"She liked this last one (short story)
Because it was not yet well known, and so she began,
Telling her yarn while her wool spun into thread."

1. It would probably be difficult in 2016 to find somebody who did not know this type of story, yet how is it different from the ones you know? Which one do you prefer?

"Pyramus and Thisbe, he the loveliest of boys,
She the most beautiful girl in the Orient..."

2. What else do we learn about these characters? Would you call them well developed? Why or why not?  How DO we learn more about them?

"Jealous wall, why do you stand
Between lovers? Would it be asking too much
For you to let us embrace, or at least open enough
To allow us to kiss?"

3. What one element in this very short story stands out the most for you?

4. What was the narrator's purpose in telling this story?

5. How is the love in this story different from that of the one of Narcissus?

6.This story is original with Ovid. Why is it not a myth?

7. Why does Pyramus pull out the sword from his wound?

8. Who is Ninus and where is his tomb?

9.  What is odd about the two bodies being buried in the same urn?

10. What are the metamorphoses in this story?

[ginny]

A lot of people haven't read the actual  Aeneid. They're more likely to have read the Odyssey and the Iliad but not the Aeneid. I think for those interested in  ancient cultures, that's a big gap, and I think it would be fun to fill it. It would take a long time and it would be something people would need to commit to, but we'd all learn a lot of stuff we can use in our lives.  We read summaries of the Aeneid in the Latin classes but not all of it.

Talking about squabbling which of course the Trojan War WAS, the influence of that struggle has resonated throughout history.

Here's The Mausoleum of the Julii
Mausoleum of the Julii (about 40 B.C) which is in Provence, France, at a place called Glanum.

This funeral monument has on one of the  lower sides on  the west face- a scene from the Iliad and Trojan War, the Greeks and Trojans fighting for the body of Patroclus.

And what has that to do with us here? Achilles would not fight.  He was angry at something the leader Agamemnon did, he had dissed him, and so Achilles, having sailed all that way from Greece to Troy and having had the finest suit of armor possible made for him, a :"magic" suit from Peleus, he sat in his tent as it shows on the vase above, playing checkers with Ajax.

The Greeks consequently lost and were beaten back to their ships on the coast but Achilles played on. Patroclus his friend, in desperation, put on the armor and sallied forth to be killed. Hector , the Trojan who killed him, put on the armor and wore it in a ceremony, whereupon Achiles, enraged, entered the battle in a new suit of armor made by Vulcan (there are instructions all over the internet on how to make your own suit should you desire) , but which suit of armor was it they are arguing ovoer?

Achilles ended  up dissing Hector by dragging his body around Troy.

We know all that, you say?

 The argument of Ajax and Ulysses over Achilles's suit of armor is entirely Ovid. It does not appear in the Iliad. Neither does the death of Achilles. It's new.

[Frybabe]

I real The Iliad on my own years and years ago. I remember being a little bored with it at the time.  I was a bit appalled that men would go fight a long war over a woman and definitely wasn't into anything that smacked of romance. Anyway, I'll have to go read The Iliad again. I think I'd get a lot more out of it the second time round. Achilles death was wasn't in it? That's a surprise. Maybe I picked up the notion that it was from all the other myth stories about him (not to mention the movie, Troy).

I'd love to read the Aeneid. We spent months on The Jewel in the Crown with a small but dedicated group of readers. I believe we did all four of the books and then Staying On too. Well, to the point, I think we can do it, but expect a small group.

[JoanK]

I'd love to read it with you.

The death of Achilles is new? where was the story about the Achilles' heel? I remember reading it.

[JoanK]

In the debate, either Ajax or Ulysses implies that being killed by such a bad warrior as Paris really lowers Achilles status as a hero, even though it was a long range shot that only worked because aided by a god. That's kind of rough. By that standard, modern soldiers killed by bombs or mortars would never achieve hero status. what would Ovid make of modern warfare, that almost never involves hand to hand combat? 

[BarbStAubrey]

What did we read that was all about the details of the war - going into the experience at sea when Paris takes Helen and her experience with snakes in the temple and the Greeks on the beach before the war begins - whatever that was is where I remember reading about Achilles - something about a brother or friend or someone in a tent he visited at night before the battle and women mourning the dead. I can see in my minds eye what ever we read it was written as an epic poem. Do not think it was the story of Odysseus that ends with his returning and testing his wife.

OK another question in my files for some reason and goodness only knows why - I found this - they are supposed all be the major Greek Gods but no names - you are supposed to know who they are by their 'hats' 'helmets' 'campaign hat' 'chapeau' 'headgear' whatever - the thing on their heads... anyhow I have not looked at enough ancient statues to have a clue - any ideas anyone...?

[JoanK]

What do you say, Ginny?

[ginny]

Well, the  death of Achilles is not in the Iliad  and neither is the argument over his armor.    Ovid is the one discussing it, and he's created an argument over it which shows the character of each man, it actually seems to give  us a sort of slant into how Ovid's  mind works. And I think the arguments are interesting. 

By "new, " I meant the argument is new  to him, his creation.  I was surprised, myself, that he didn't make much of the Achilles heel thing. Just pffft.

 Frybabe, you'd love the Lombardo, it's a long way from boring. Id love to read the Aeneid, too, and if it were a small group, who cares? I hated I missed the saga of the Jewel in the  Crown, I loved that series and books, so this might make a fun thing for our 20th anniversary. We'd have to see who, if anybody else is interested. Joan is interested, too, (Yay!) so we have three here. I like the idea. Those things are SO much fun.

We could start in the  Fall and lead it the way we do now, if people are willing.

As to the illustration of the various  gods, I have no idea who they might be representing.  I've never made a study of headgear and none of it looks unusual  except the figure within  the helmet of the woman. 

Somewhere there has to be attribution to that illustration, who did it, and then we could hopefully find out who he is representing. I'd like to know, myself.   Where did you get it, Barbara? It's pretty and looks quite old.

That's a good question, Joan, on modern warfare. I often wonder what any of the ancient warriors would have thought of drones and missiles and where they would fit if they had to go to war again under these situations. In fact I wonder about Patton.

The conversations these adversaries had in ancient days before a battle never cease to amaze me. I can't imagine Patton and Rommel meeting to converse or Hitler and Roosevelt before a battle, yet accounts of Roman warfare, for instance, are full of such instances.

[ginny]

Those drawings remind me of a field trip I once took with some  Furman students to see two exhibits which had come from Pompeii and Stabiae in Atlanta. It was a wonderful day and everybody was having a wonderful time when  we came upon an epitaph on a tomb which appeared to be quite easy to read so naturally everybody wanted to know what it said, and they were enjoying making guesses, etc. And they turned to me for the answers.  hahahaa

 Epigraphy is not my strong suit, there's a lot involved in it and there's a lot of background that has to be known first, and time to suss it out, and this one was unusual,  but I know somebody who is an expert on it, so I took a photo of it on the iphone  and shot it to him and hoped when his classes were over before we left he might  say something about it, because he's  a nice guy.

Well about an hour later here it came. I was excited. It said, and I quote, "That could be  ANYTHING!" hahahahaa

I never have forgotten that.

[BarbStAubrey]

could be nothing and I have no clue where it came from - it was among my saved pictures - trying to look up the statues of Greek gods and I came up with this that maybe it could be the second to last or second in from the right

it is the Head of Ares - the second head view is from a Roman web site where he is called Mars
 

And then this bodes for the possibility the picture is hogwash - it is a reproduced helmet with the sphinx symbol


The hat or helmet or whatever is right for Vulcanus being in the center - all the pictures show him in this shaped hat so maybe the one in the center is Vulcanus - it must be because found the second from a Roman site saying he is Vulcanus
 

Aha - its gotta be - the hat is so unmistakable - Mithras, god of light - second in from the left
 

[BarbStAubrey]

The first on the right the headdress looks too much like achilles and the more I read he was an important figure to the Greeks  - problem the headdress looks about right but he shows no beard - the only other I found so far is the goddess of wisdom who has a similar headdress but of course no beard - this one is still a question for me and then the one in the middle with the curly hair and short curly beard and no helmet.

 

[BarbStAubrey]

Hahaha talk about rolling on the floor laughing - put in Google 'greek admired gods' and look what came up - I can't believe it - so I had one right but attached it to the wrong head hahaha

Well the mystery is not only solved but it fits with the conversation about the Trojan war...

[ginny]

I'll be darned!  You've solved it!  Super job! 

They aren't gods, though, are they? They're all characters of the Trojan war. Heroes, as the title implies, some of them. From both sides.

But none of them Greek or Roman gods.

[JoanK]

"Heroes, as the title implies, some of them"

Interesting to see Paris included in the "heroes", after seeing him sneered at by Ovid.

Who would you have given the armor to: the big strong giant: maybe not too bright and a little childish, but loyal to the end, and boy if you want heads bashed in, he's your guy?

Or the wily fox who defeated the Trojans with his brain, but maybe thought sometimes instead of acting?   

[BarbStAubrey]

Slow in here today - last we heard Ginny was having problems with her communication devises including her phone - my guess is they are all on the same connection so if one goes the all go - hopefully it will be fixed today but if not starting off may end up being delayed - not sure what Ginny had in mind to get us going on this next myth but it is a familiar story.

As to the story of the Trojan war - someone remarked about all this conflict over a woman - I too thought that way till the last couple of years - my guess, it is about the tribal nature of early civilizations that may have even been at the heart of Anthony and Cleopatra with the Romans not having the same value for tribal purity.

I've read at least a half dozen books now that all talk about the value placed on 'Tribal Purity' among those in the Middle East and one author explains in great detail how young men look in the mirrors lining the walls of the many new buildings especially in places like Dubai, Doha and Abu Dhabi to admire and to check on their headdress which is particular to their tribe. I started to look up to learn how many active tribes there were and at last count I was over 150 without even going into the northern areas beyond the Kurdish lands. I also learned some tribes are small with as few as five thousand members where as others are huge with a couple of million members

Chapter after chapter in these books referring and explaining responsibility to and pride of tribe. Plus, what I did not know, only those families that are tribal pure (and that is another story of how some really are not) the tribes annual profits from ownership in resources on their tribal land is shared only among these tribal pure families - anything from tribal owned oil to investment in these luxury buildings that now dot the Middle East and so there is economic pressure for girls to marry within the tribe - If she does not then it is not just her but her entire family who will no longer receive their share of the annual profits. Which further explains the traditions of keeping women, who control birth from the gaze of men and who cannot tempt a flirtation with men not chosen by families to keep pure their tribal ties.

Tribal Purity is so strictly held that the parks that we would consider public parks only allow folks from the tribe that owns and maintains the park to use the parks - the explanation in one book is that police would spot someone who is not from the tribe and remove them and their family from the park.

My thought was how can they tell but then like all races I am sure there are distinctions that go over our head - like it is difficult for me to tell from appearance who is Chinese from Hong Cong or from Indonesia (Not Indonesians but those and their descendants who migrated from China mostly in the later part of the nineteenth century) or from Mainland China and yet, those Asians who I have worked with over the years can tell immediately. I have been able to distinguish those from Japan or Viet Nam from other Asian groups so one up.   

Anyhow all this over tribal purity lead me to speculate that it could be taking Helen from an Athenian 'tribe' would of course have to be blamed somehow on Helen - and this story has her beauty as the culprit as well as her being complicit in her capture by Paris. The Athenians of course would support each other plus, the issue of saving face that I do not know nor, have I read any ritual behavior of how the Greeks valued saving face - but it would seem like as all of us, we would want back what we believe was taken and to take a wife was, till very recently grounds for getting out the rifle or shotgun and until the last 75 years or so if an unmarried girl was taken out came the guns to force a marriage.

So I am seeing another aspect to why a war over a woman - we have lost that sense of purity that the French still value with their laws defining the use of the French Language. Come to think on it, we in the US are reacting with a sense of Tribal Purity when folks want borders closed and folks to dress and talk as 'Americans', in other words in our version of English - Which does still bring out the army to keep us separate at the border - and goodness knows what would happen if a bunch of US citizens were kidnapped and held captive in Mexico as the Athenians reacted to Helen remaining in Troy.

And so this Trojan war has a new meaning for me - the particulars of who played what part during the fighting appears to identify characteristics of men during battles translated today from the board room to the deserts of Afghanistan. So I wonder, are all our ideas and values protected similar to tribal protection - are we setting up our own tribes without realizing it as we stand for a set of ideals and protect those who share these ideals - just a question I ponder...

[Frybabe]

Barb, I get the sense that not only do we still have traditional tribalism based mostly on blood ties in some areas but also new types of tribes/tribalism that are less focused on blood ties and tribal traditions. The definition of more modern "tribes" seems to focus more on ideas and interests. The new tribes are more flexible, and I expect form and reform as new ideas and access to better education allow people to develop and express themselves in ways the old, traditional tribal members couldn't. The gap between the two is becoming wider and wider.

I'd like to pin down these modern tribes a little more, but just now I don't know too much about the notion. Are we a tribe here on SeniorLearn because we have a passion for reading and learning? Am I part of a tribe if I affiliate with a political party, club, team, or what have you? TED has one or two talks on modern tribalism. I may just watch them tonight. Here is one of them https://www.ted.com/talks/david_logan_on_tribal_leadership

[BarbStAubrey]

I guess it is according to how we define Tribe -

Some insightful books that do continue the concept of tribalism being very much the driving force in the Middle East - not just based on ideas and idealism - there are breakdowns that westerners have attempted to understand thinking it was about the split in the Islam - the journalists often mention tribal leaders but they do not seem to include the understanding of what that is all about - and for sure our governmental policy is attempting to blend tribalism into a one nation with different viewpoints but within a unified government - so far from what I read it won't work - tried to read mostly books authored by those from the Middle East - not always possible but after reading Orientalism by Said it is easier to pick up the unconscious attitude of 'west is better' or the mean for comparison...

Here are some of the books I've been reading - there are others I would love to get but my budget both in time and money has a hand in my collection.

This one is probably a good one for the current views on tribalism in the Gulf States - Tribal Modern by Miriam Cooke

Tribes and Power Nationalism and Ethnicity in the Middle East edited by Faleh A. Jabar and Hosham Dawod

Tribes and State Formation in the Middle East edited by Philip s. Khoury and Joseph Kostiner

How Arab societies work - The Closed Circle by David Pryce Jones

The Kurds edited by Faleh A Jabar and Hosham Dawod

It's not about Religion by Gregory Harms

The Baloch and Balochinstam by Naseer Dashti

this one really goes into the differences between the Shia and the Sunni - The Shia Revival by Vali Nasr - Vali Nasr has a wonderful book from the short bit I was able to read on line about an important leader we do not hear about that started the newest revival in Islam, Mawdudi and the Making of Islamic Revivalism but the book cost used $55 and $125 new - was hoping to find it in a library but so far no such luck. He is often on the Charlie Rose show- Professor at the Navel post graduate school. His books are less about tribalism but rather more about Western miss-understanding and about Islamic factions.

From 2002 is The Al Qaeda Reader by Raymond Ibrahim and from 2000 is Taliban by Ahned Rashid 

Not available in the US but can be ordered used from UK  The Tribes Triumphant Return Journey to the Middle East by Charles Glass published in 2015 - I've ordered it but have not received it yet.

I do not have a copy but, for the tribalism of ideas that is more universal rather than a series of values and traditions based in the evolving traditional tribal communities - I am thinking Our Political Nature: The Evolutionary Origins of What Divides Us by Avi Tuschman would be a good read.

I've not looked at the affects of Alexander - still caught in the effects of the Ottoman Empire and it being dissolved after WWI that was the open door to the west defining from their perspective the Middle East.

[BarbStAubrey]

Since Alexander lived a couple of hundred years before Ovid I wondered if he was included in any of the writings of Ovid - all I find is that the woman who accompanied Alexander and was probably his lover, Thaïs is mentioned "In Ovid’s Remedia Amoris, Thaïs is contrasted with Andromache, Andromache being the epitome of the loyal wife, while Thaïs is taken to be the epitome of sex. Thaïs, says Ovid, is the subject of his art."

Thaïs is most famous for instigating the burning of Persepolis. In 330 BC, Alexander burned down the palace of Persepolis, the principal residence of the defeated Achaemenid dynasty, after a drinking party. She was the first, after the king, to hurl her blazing torch into the palace.  Athenaeus says Alexander liked to "keep Thaïs with him", that after Alexander's death Ptolemy I Soter, one of Alexander's generals married Thaïs, who bore him three children.

And Joan you may be interested - evidently Ovid goes into far more about the Trojan War and the characters involved in his book The Art of Love - http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/love-in-the-arts/ovid.html

[Frybabe]

Here is a painting by Joshua Reynolds depicting Thais ready to torch the palace. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tha%C3%AFs#/media/File:Joshua_Reynoldsre_thais.jpg

[BooksAdmin]

Ginny has had a major power problem down at the farm, and the power surge that then occurred has fried, apparently, her computer.  People were to come out to try and fix it this afternoon.  She will get back here as soon as she can and the new story will begin then.


We all know how Mother Nature and power companies can mess up things, so please be patient and have a great weekend!



Jane

[BarbStAubrey]

thanks for the heads up Jane - thank goodness it is not mid summer and Ginny's AC would be affected - or maybe the power outage has only to do with her communication hookup -

Frybabe great find - I had not heard of her and yet, it seems she has been included in many a story and here you find her on canvas.

The connection between her helping to burn down Persepolis lines up as a tradition - the burning of some of our communities like Watts must be instinctive when emotions are high in a group. Googled and learned that in the Bible of all things there are 36 instances of cities being burned. Wow...

Evidently Alexander burning Persepolis was a tit for tat since "King Xerxes, son of Cyrus, who invaded and destroyed much of Greece in 480 BCE, burning villages, cities and temples (including the Parthenon of Athens) until defeated at the naval Battle of Salamis."

I wonder why the account of what happened in Troy got so much attention by several of these ancient writers where as the exploits of Alexander do not receive that much attention?  We are told that the written stories were a verbal history put on paper by these writers - so does that mean Alexander's conquests were not stories shared among the people of Greece? Interesting - I read where there are some accounts of his life by his contemporaries and others who lived later but none of the writers mentioned are familiar names today expect probably among the Ancient Greek scholars. 

[Frybabe]

Sending messages to the enemy or defeated by destroying buildings, crops, exterminating livestock and people and destroying history itself. Not the way it should be, but the way it is. It just reminded me of the destruction that ISIS did to Palmyra, like the Buddha statues the Taliban destroyed. Have you seen the before and after pictures?
http://www.reuters.com/news/picture/palmyra-before-and-after-isis?articleId=USRTSCQPG

[BarbStAubrey]

How painfully sad...

[BarbStAubrey]

How little I know about Alexander - just read he was taught by Aristotle.

Found this interesting 3 minutes short film about Ovid from Colby which evidently is a private grade school as well as a high school.

https://vimeo.com/85562560

[ginny]

I'm going to get an early start today because tomorrow I think I may be initially busy with the classes due to the loss of my computer, so I don't want anybody to have to wait.

I'll start with repeating the "heading" here with the questions  for your convenience since I understand that many never see the headings, they come in by being notified of a post. Feel free to add any question or thoughts or ideas YOU have:

Pyramus and Thisbe:

Thisbe by John William Waterhouse 1909

Bk IV:55-92 Arsippe tells the story of Pyramus and Thisbe

http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph4.htm#478205189

Bk IV:93-127 The death of Pyramus
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph4.htm#478205190

Bk IV:128-166 The death of Thisbe
http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph4.htm#478205191

What do you Think: Questions for Consideration or add your own:

"She liked this last one (short story)
Because it was not yet well known, and so she began,
Telling her yarn while her wool spun into thread."

1. It would probably be difficult in 2016 to find somebody who did not know this type of story, yet how is it different from the ones you know? Which  do you prefer?

"Pyramus and Thisbe, he the loveliest of boys,
She the most beautiful girl in the Orient..."

2. What else do we learn about these characters? Would you call them well developed? Why or why not?  How DO we learn more about them?

"Jealous wall, why do you stand
Between lovers? Would it be asking too much
For you to let us embrace, or at least open enough
To allow us to kiss?"

3. What one element in this very short story stands out the most for you?

4. What was the narrator's purpose in telling this story?

5. How is the love in this story different from that of the one of Narcissus?

6.This story is original with Ovid. Why is it not a myth?

7. Why does Pyramus pull out the sword from his wound?

8. Who is Ninus and where is his tomb?

9.  What is odd about the two bodies being buried in the same urn?

10. What are the metamorphoses in this story?

[ginny]

And welcome in to our newest story of why mulberfries are purple in color.

This one is so short and seems so simple it's hard to realize it comes from Ovid, the knowledge there IS about it is it's not known "where he heard it," and there is no other version than his.  That makes the ones WE know derivative and I always like to see the original of anything if I possibly can.

Plus I'm a real nut about legendary tales and it's kind of fun to look at a narcissus in spring and know the story behind it, to hear an echo and know the story behind IT and now to see  a mulberry and be able to think, oh I know the origin of that one, too. I think that even tho this is quite short, it has a lasting resonance, which Ovid has just said thru his characters.

To be so short and simple there seem a lot of elements which interest me in this one. The setting of Babylon is one, I don't know much about it, other than the Hanging Gardens, you don't see many works of fiction set there,  the symbolism of several of the elements, the love story, and the obstructions to that love. I might be wrong but other than Narcissus, this is our first Romantic Love story in Ovid. A 2000 year old Romance.

To answer number 3, I am sure I am the only one struck by the wall itself.   I am reminded of Robert Frost and his "Something there is that doesn't love a well," and what THAT symbolized. We really ought to look at that poem, perhaps in connection with this one.

The Romans would have been transfixed by the walls of Babylon. They were not used to painted mud brick walls, Greeks and Romans were used to stone walls in the West, so when they  traveled, they brought home tales of these fabulous sights.

Here is a photograph of the Ishtar Gate which is now in the Pergamon Museum in Berlin. It is absolutely spectacular, as you can see, and even  on the bricks the animals seem to rise from the stone, they are elevated. This is the only photo of it we apparently have here on our server but when (if) I get my own computer back I can put in some examples.

But here is a really good film on it from Khan Academy, which in addition in  6 minutes offers you a mini Babylonian history:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2iZ83oIZH0

It's just spectacular, so this story being set in Babylon, it's not unusual that a wall would stand in importance, but what does this particular wall symbolize? I'd really like to  examine that and compare it to the Robert Frost poem, which I have always loved, for my part. But what struck YOU?

Everyone is welcome!

Penny for your thoughts!

[Halcyon]

Hello everyone.

6.This story is original with Ovid. Why is it not a myth?

A myth is usually not true and this particular story may be fiction but there are many examples of the storyline being true.  When my daughter-in-law graduated medical school she pointed out friends among her classmates who could not be with their significant others on that day because their their parents did not approve because of cultural or religious reasons.  Back in the 50s my aunt, a beautiful blonde Polish woman married a very handsome swarth Italian.  His family never approved.  Another aunt, same family, right after WWII, wanted to marry a man of German descent but my grandfather was adamant that his Polish daughter would never marry a German.  Even though the young man in question had just returned from a stint in the war as a Marine!  They did marry.  I'm sure everyone has similar family stories or knows someone who does.

[BarbStAubrey]

In the classroom the teaching explaining the differences between Legend, Myth and Folklore is explained on this site...  http://myths.e2bn.org/teachers/info311-what-are-myths-legends-and-folktales.html

However, on another site the explanation is a bit different

A Myth is a traditional ancient story often with gods, heroes and supernatural beings. They often explaining an aspect of the natural world, customs or ideas in society. An example would be of the Greek myth of Prometheus, a human being who stole the secret of fire from the gods and was punished with everlasting torment, purported to explain the origin of mankind's use of fire.

A Legend is an unverified story handed down from earlier times, especially one popularly believed to be historical. Robin Hood would be an example.

A story is an account or recital of an event or a series of events, either true or fictitious.

Fiction is an imaginative creation or a pretense that does not represent actuality but has been invented. This can also be non-fiction.

Drama is either is prose or verse composition, especially one telling a serious story, that is intended for representation by actors impersonating the characters and performing the dialogue and action. For example, Romeo and Juliet.

[BarbStAubrey]

The part that makes me curious as to assigning any label is the mulberries - yep, I agree with Halcyon - lots of examples of the powers that be - regardless parents rules or family or cultural or even religious tradition or forced distance such as a young teen who seems bent on a union too early in their life being whisked away to a distant relative or private school or a European tour. However, this story has an explanation for why Mulberries are dark - surely explaining an aspect of the natural world I would think up there with being turned into a Laurel Tree or twin trees with entwining branches - or upon death becoming a flower mound.

[BarbStAubrey]

The symbolism of the wall and the crack has my brain on a non-stop journey as I take it to another step of how we can wall in ourselves and there is this crack of what could be, a dream for ourselves and if we guts up and go after the dream but it does not turn out to be our vision or the plan did not work so we cut off ourselves not to pursue or try for that dream again. 

[PatH]

I agree the tale seems more like a story.  The only element that's supernatural or an explanation of the world is the bloodstained mulberries, and they almost look like something added in to make the story fit Ovid's theme of change.

[ginny]

Halcyon, I sure am glad to see you back and you're an inspiration for eye surgery, you're giving me hope. Or maybe courage would be a better word, you didn't formerly wear contacs, did you, by any chance? I am somewhat confused over the instructions about them.

That's a really good point about the reason they are on each side of the wall, the disaproving parents. Ovid doesn't say why, tho, does he? It doesn't appear either one is of poorer estate than the others, he just lets it go but as you say, sometimes the reasons don't mean much to us in hearing them. Yet you do see families split and for a lot less valid reasons. So for some reason we really don't know why but they find a way to circumvent even a wall. And he even says, "what does love not see?"

So it's about the power of love? One recurring theme in the Metamorphoses is "The Sadness of Love," which we have seen before and so maybe we should not be surprised here. The whole thing is quite sad, actually.

It took Shakespeare to see the humor of it in  A Midsummer Night's Dream, but Ovid tried. Don't you wish you knew how Shakespeare actually came UP with these ideas? So we have an obstacle in the parents and a symbol of that in the wall but the lovers have overcome it..but fail. Or do they?

[ginny]

Barbara and Halcyon two great ideas on why it's not a myth.  W.S. Anderson says "it is not a myth, for it ignores the gods and serves the girls (the narrator etc) as a substitute  for the divine cult; a humanly devised tale, it attempts to give significance to human beings."

I think that's interesting and one of the definitions you found indicates the same, Barbara, and I must admit I never thought of myth like that.  But is HE right? But when you think about it, myths in Greece were originally about the gods, the myths themselves were the vehicles of their religion,  so in Rome, and here we have one with no god present or named which was normal,  or doing powerful stuff, and a love story (one of the first in the Metamorphoses, other than Narcissus who loved himself, the first true romance, then, and not a myth.

I will admit that from this point onward, I'm going to be watching out for mentions of gods in any story I read of this nature.

[ginny]

Loved this, Barbara: The symbolism of the wall and the crack has my brain on a non-stop journey as I take it to another step of how we can wall in ourselves and there is this crack of what could be, a dream for ourselves and if we guts up and go after the dream but it does not turn out to be our vision or the plan did not work so we cut off ourselves not to pursue or try for that dream again. 

Just reading THAT sent my mind off on whirlwinds.  If the crack is opportunity or what could BE,  the possibility of failure also presents itself. The new National Latin Exam medals have a motto on it of Sapere  Aude,  which was the motto Kant adopted for the Enlightenment, but Horace said it first in 20 B.C.

He said it in refer3ence to what he called a "fool" who was standing by a fast flowing stream waiting for it to stop so he could cross. Sapere aude, he said, dare to know. Dare to be wise. Take a chance.

So with that slant, then this is a tragedy? Because they dared and failed because of ??

[ginny]

And Pat, that's another great point, the supernatural is somewhat missing. I do see one other (other than the color of the mulberries)  instance of it but there's no god involved. In fact since you mention it I wonder if it's a hole in the plot line.

The aetiological aspect, the  "how the mulberry got a purple color," usually applies to a myth,  but it applies here.  I don't know if ALL of Ovid's stories need to have a metamorphoses, that would be interesting to find out. How would we do that? I don't  know if the story needs to BE a myth, is this another change of his?

I bet they don't all have a metamorphosis. But this one does. Do we all think it's the mulberries? Are there any others?

To put a change in 250 stories and not have ONE without a metamorphosis   would take a lot of contrivance, to fit them in.    And I wonder why he did here?  I am wondering what the point of the story or the focus really is at this point, the color of the berries doesn't seem to be the climax? Or is it?

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes Ginny, the face at the end of your sentence got me thinking - why? - If using the story as a life lesson - why or what stops us from pursuing our plan for a dream so that we do not return - The tiger could be anything that is dangerous and worthy of our fear - and so Thisbe fleeing is appropriate - but then Pyramus seeing the blood stained vail, feels guilt - guilt for an imagined death - do we jump to conclusions when we see what we think is failure - or do we imagine failure more quickly when we are in the new territory that comes with attempting a dream or more like Pyramus, is it easy to jump to conclusions when we are already feeling guilty for disobeying an authority and following our dream?

Thisbe bravely returns regardless of her fear which is what folks say courage is all about - not being fearless but acting regardless of our fear - her courage stems from love - not wanting to disappoint the one she loves -

During her heartfelt slide into being helpless - helpless to fix, save, repair her loved partner in this venture she is in grief and the next paragraph tells us how grief is manifested during the time of Ovid - "striking at her innocent arms, and tearing at her hair."

I remember as a child seeing Mom's do this - since the 50s it is not a typical sight - I am thinking with the advancement in medicine there is not the kind of helplessness, as if leaving your child to the fates as before penicillin and then other drugs - there was a brief display of Mom's acting in what was called hysteria when kids were taken to hospitals with polio but then in only about 15 or so years from the epidemic Dr. Salk came to the rescue and ever since there is a belief in medicine and research so that striking arms and tearing at hair does not appear as a reaction to the pending loss of a loved one.

Is that the message for going after a dream - there will be serious and fearful snags but learning, research, belief in those who can cure problems is a better choice than to team up with the failure assumed by a partner - a failure that may have been precedent to an imagined loss.

When she sees the evidence of his imagined loss and realizes it was love for her that prompted Pyramus to give up the dream assuming his loved partner Thisbe was gone, she too gives up not only the dream but her future, her life.

Not sure how many here in this discussion are watching Grantchester on PBS - the mystery featuring a cleric and an inspector - the cleric and his Amanda are fitting a semblance of the Pyramus and Thisbe story - without the dark mulberries - last night's episode had them declare to each other their love and wish they had acted on their desire for marriage but with Amanda's father's expectations and Sidney's feeling less worthy they let an opportunity slip and now the wall appears to be her early pregnancy. However, you do not get the sense that this is the end for them - that either fall on the sword or as in today, go their separate ways - it was a dream that neither followed with a plan.

Is the message here that when attempting to bring about a dream it is easy to be spooked by what is fearful and once we imagine the loss of the dream that was freedom to be with whom or what we love, the dream is dead. It is our imagination that prompts us to take the risk but then it is imagination that brings about the death of a dream.

The forces of nature are simultaneously life-giving and death-dealing - sad is how impoverished is our imagination. It is not just our ignorance but the loss of our heart, our inability to inquire into what we imagine is beyond our capacity to learn and therefore, as fearful as a tiger so that we toss off the unknown as a mystery or as today, we feel threatened by the affects of danger.

Hmm this love story really explains life itself doesn't it - love is the giver - the source of life and yet, within life is the 'gift' of contamination, disease, illness of the mind and finally death. Is fear for the one loved, the risk taken, also the prerogative of Love - does all of nature and our feelings contain a duality of opposites I wonder.

[PatH]

This story is an example of a kind of tragedy I find very frustrating; you could call it tragedy by rash thoughtlessness.  Pyramus finds Thisbe's blood-stained cloak surrounded by lion tracks.  "She's dead!  It's my fault!  I'll kill myself too!"  Hold on, Pyramus, there's no body.  Look for her.  Maybe she's dying and you can comfort her.  Maybe she's just wounded and you can save her.  Maybe she is dead, but find out what happened before you do something stupid.

[Halcyon]

Pat says:  This story is an example of a kind of tragedy I find very frustrating; you could call it tragedy by rash thoughtlessness.  Pyramus finds Thisbe's blood-stained cloak surrounded by lion tracks.  "She's dead!  It's my fault!  I'll kill myself too!"  Hold on, Pyramus, there's no body.  Look for her.  Maybe she's dying and you can comfort her.  Maybe she's just wounded and you can save her.  Maybe she is dead, but find out what happened before you do something stupid.

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I agree but find it's much easier to see someone else "projecting" than myself.  When I'm caught up in a moment of fear  can imagine all sorts of things.  I really have to tell myself I don't have all the facts and for right this moment I am fine.  Takes practice and of course I haven't mastered it.  Reminds me of FDR's famous statement “Only Thing We Have to Fear Is Fear Itself”.

Ginny says: That's a really good point about the reason they are on each side of the wall, the disaproving parents. Ovid doesn't say why, tho, does he?

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I was rereading a passage "Jealous wall, why do you stand between lovers?"  Lombardo, line 84.  I wondered if the wall represented the parents who could not marry for love and were jealous of the two lovers.  It seems likely families would have matched their children to form political alliances or for monetary reasons.  The chink in the wall could represent metamorphoses, thinking that people should be together for love.  Too simplistic?

Ginny, I'll email you with details about my eye surgery.  I don't want to bore everyone.  does your email work?

[PatH]

The children were both outstandingly beautiful.  Perhaps each set of parents hoped their child would marry someone richer or more important, thus improving the family's fortunes.

[BarbStAubrey]

Found some quotes that I thought fit the story each with another twist

“Your perspective on life comes from the cage you were held captive in.”

“No boundary or barrier surrounds the heart of a person that loves their self and others.”

“Sometimes your belief system is really your fears attached to rules.”

“Fear is a product of doubt. it is a negative energy. Fear is an opposite of faith.”

“There are limits to the dimension of fear. Until one meets the unknown. Then terror has no boundaries, no walls to keep it contained.”

“Even paradise could become a prison if one had enough time to take notice of the walls.”