Author Topic: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book  (Read 18670 times)

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The Book Club Online is the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

Starting Monday, November 14

November Book Club Online

Two Old Women
by Velma Wallis

   

Based on an Athabascan Indian legend passed along for many generations from mothers to daughters of the upper Yukon River Valley in Alaska, this is the suspenseful, shocking, ultimately inspirational tale of two old women abandoned by their tribe during a brutal winter famine.

We are talking about the whole book (it's a short one) so please read as much as you want as we discuss.


QUESTIONS TO CONSIDER:
How do the various people respond to the decision to leave the two old women?

How are the characters and dispositions of  Sa‟ and Ch‟idzigyaak described?

How do Sa‟ and Ch‟idzigyaak respond to what is happening to them

What do Sa‟ and Ch‟idzigyaak do to survive?

How do their attitudes change?

What are some details of the story that especially strike you?

What do you think are some of the turning points in the story?

What are some phrases from the story that are meaningful for you?


Discussion Leaders: marcie, Ann, PatH, Barb

marcie

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2016, 12:00:35 PM »
Welcome to our discussion of this interesting book. It's based on an old Athabascan Indian legend but it contains many elements that can provide us with insights into our current lives. We hope that you'll join us starting November 14.

Kristen

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2016, 12:41:05 PM »
I have a question about this book club.  I am a student in one of the Latin classes and noticed this club.  Do I need to sign up for this or do people just read and post?  I've checked out a copy of the book from the library and have started reading but I'm not sure just how the book club works. 
Thanks,

PatH

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2016, 05:44:17 PM »
  Welcome, Kristin.  You're in it just by posting here that you're going to be in.  We'll start talking about the book on the 14th.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2016, 04:58:29 AM »
Wow the site is open - Thanks Marcie and PatH is here - Great - Welcome Kristin looking forward to your sharing your thoughts with us...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2016, 07:10:02 AM »
I am here, which is saying a lot these days since I am off in space a lot. ;D

nlhome

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2016, 03:26:52 PM »
I will try to participate. I read the book, apparently because someone at Seniorlearn mentioned it.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2016, 04:26:01 PM »
Looking forward to this one with both Frybabe and nlhome joining in - should be a good discussion just before Thanksgiving - I need to rustle up my book - it is around here somewhere... just the change of subject I need after this week of national uproar.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

marcie

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2016, 02:08:59 AM »
It's great to see you all here. I think that the book will stimulate a good discussion.

JoanK

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2016, 03:44:22 PM »
I've read the book, (novella, really) and am ready to go tomorrow.

Frybabe

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2016, 04:55:18 PM »
I am not likely to be here tomorrow, unless it is late afternoon. I must ferry George to an appointment and lunch afterwards. The book is going with me so I can read while I wait on hm.

marcie

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2016, 11:11:27 PM »
Great, Joan.

Frybabe, Waiting for appointments is a good time to read :-)

marcie

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2016, 02:24:36 AM »
Some of you may still be reading the book. We have some initial questions in the heading and can take them slowly or talk about any other questions or elements that interest you.

PatH

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2016, 09:54:56 AM »
Well, this is certainly off our usual path.  How did you like putting yourself into the mindset of this very different culture?  Could you relate to their problems, and the solutions the culture imposed?

marcie

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2016, 11:50:11 AM »
You're right, Pat. The subject matter is very different from most books we've talked about. I could think about the book as a legend or myth in which I could find "truths" to apply to my life and the world today. It is harder to think about a time and culture where people would have to make these kind of life and death decisions.

nlhome

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2016, 12:33:19 PM »
I talked to our library director about how this short book could be used in their rotating displays, for native American culture and history, for women's issues and for senior issues. When I read it I thought about how these women were looked at and how they looked at themselves, and how that changed. I also thought about roles of seniors then and now - are they so different? And, of course, the history and culture.

I don't know, but I would think that these kind of decisions the women and their tribe made are ongoing in the world today, perhaps among the refugees in the middle east?

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2016, 01:26:41 PM »
I read the book some time ago so I do know the ending and the over all arch - however, I needed to re-read since it has been awhile - I was thunder struck at how much I missed the first read - I have only re-read the first two chapters and it is a marvel of the place, the weather, the elements, telling the story of the inner feelings of these characters.

Never mind they are two elders - have you ever been abandoned and betrayed at the same time - the frozen feeling of disbelief and utter helplessness how to process what happened never mind even being conscious to your own survival.

Perfect, that is what you do if someone you cared about, in this case a daughter not only abandons you but you feel betrayed by how she joins the others who are putting you in dire straights - yes, you find a rational reason because it is more than you can cope with - there must be some logic - of course she has her own welfare to consider. 

Adding to the abandonment is the self abandonment of body and spirit that has these two women frozen in place - their surroundings is adding to this feeling - it is not described as a rubbage heap but pristine in its cold, snow, dark ascending, absence of light except for a small glow from a fire that says they are not completely done in and they have the spark of one child, not an important member of the group, put the love of a child who leaves them an ax.

They even had to accept that their contribution to The People was cast aside as not that necessary therefore, they were being let know their contribution working the skins was not worthy.

They have their belongings, that includes skins to make a shelter, they have a fire that was nearly out as their spirit was nearly gone, they had the leftover bits of fire that they collected to help revive themselves and the bundle of moose skins given to them by the daughter to make a snare and the ax - tools yes, but more, the basics to maintaining life that were tiny expressions of humanity, The People, the love of family - they were not stripped of everything.

Interesting they turned to skills long since buried but still within their memory to renew their body and in so doing they renew the rhythm of their life as if pumping blood into their life as the blood pumped bringing them back from the frozen state of disbelief and abandonment.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2016, 01:43:44 PM »
I can report that I read all but the last 35 pages while waiting for George. Interesting that they include me when the Dr. tells George the results of the endoscopy.

Immediately the story brought to mind Farley Mowat's People of the Deer. In the book, he also described the practice of leaving or turning out the weak and old during hard times. He took his trip to the area west of the Hudson Bay the year I was born. Mowat's writing is more polished than this book, but you can still feel, in both of the books, the power of the harsh environment and the hard choices the tribes must make to ensure that some survive when resources are very scarce.

PatH

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2016, 02:59:51 PM »
Hard choices indeed, and how do you make them and keep your humanity?  Most of us would give our lives to save the life of a child or grandchild, but how do you sacrifice a parent to save your own life?  The power of tradition helps here--the tribal wisdom that says sacrifices are necessary so that at least some can survive.

JoanK

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2016, 04:48:03 PM »
I knew my bad habit of watching every TV show ever made about Alaska would come in handy one day. The Discovery Channel has had 5 or 6 such reality shows and one of them (not the one that's running now -- I'll look for reruns, my Senior memory has forgotten it's name) follows the lives of present day Alabaskan natives living in Tanana, one of the settlements mentioned in our book. So  feel I know how this story came out. More later -- my computer's acting up.

JoanK

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2016, 05:16:48 PM »
More about modern Tanana and Athabascans: among many other things, "Two
Old Women" is the story of the change from a nomadic way of life to a settled community, where they can build store houses and store enough meat in good weather to  last them through the Winter. this is still the overriding concern today. As fall approaches, all other activity stops while they hunt or fish to accumulate enough food for the winter and also chop trees for firewood. whenever they succeed in getting a large animal they always stop and give some cuts to the elders in the village who have no one to hunt for them.

t is not quite a subsistence economy: they use some machines, so they need some money. most families have a money producing activity: trapping animals for fur,  raising sled dogs or goats for sale, chopping wood for sale. But they buy as little as possible from  outside the town. Any piece of machinery beyond repair is canabalized endlessly for parts, not just by the owner, but by anyone who needs it. Houses are built by hand, and unused houses raided for materials. Dogsleds are widely used, even by those who also own modern means of transportation.

As might be expected, there is always a question of whether the young people will stay, or leave for the city and a modern life. They show followed two teenagers: over the years I watched the show: one embraced the traditional life fully: the othewr left as soon as he was able, but came back a year or so later.

Hope this adds interest to the story. 

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2016, 05:32:20 PM »
Wow been researching for other books that feature women taking care of themselves after having been left to their own devises - almost impossible - the story reminded me some of Gone With The Wind as Scarlett O'Hara is left to her own devises after she was 'abandoned' so to speak by Ashley but attracts another a man who after the birth of their child is abandoned again and she takes of charge of rebuilding after Atlanta was burned more love triangle but the whole of Scarlett's taking care of herself is to attract a man - the goal for her as a women is not self-sufficiency and generosity.

In literature girls don't take road-trips to find themselves; they take trips to find men and so the movie Thelma and Louise was a real ground breaker.

Joan I had not seen that but yes, the difference between a nomadic life and a settled life however, I'm thinking there is still abandonment and loss in a settled life - I guess I am seeking women that have the pluck of these two - yes, it is written as self-preservation but it is pluck since all that we read this tradition usually means death.

Even A Room of Her Own there is a sadness - she does lament " women must have a fixed income and a room of their own in order to have the freedom to create." However, not much role modeling how to do that much less, it is about someone pursuing a big talent and she makes the choice, she is not abandoned. Is this story one of the few that shows women taking care of themselves in adverse situations having been left by society? 

I'm thinking how often women are widowed and must do it alone, some with few financial resources - how often women are alone because their family have major issues with drink or drugs, so that if they loose their job while alone they have a real struggle - bottom line, how often do we read of a women alone who makes a success out of not only her life but builds something.

We have bio's about men who, if they marry it is secondary to their already having achieved some success like, Steve Jobs... wait we can go all the way back to Jesus, St. Paul, Leonardo Di Vinci, Issac Newton - where as, describing woman that have achieved some success that could be a role model there is Joan of Arc, burned at the stake, Emily Dickinson, who always in her description is the phrase, never married. We know she was cared for by close to family, never abandoned. And, Mother Teresa, now come on, must women be saints giving of herself - Look at the pluck of these two ladies who use their skills to save the group who abandoned them - a far better role model.

I am thinking of us today - many of us are single having essentially been abandoned when a spouse dies - however, society essentially abandons us, we are not considered relevant and we are not an active force in society or in some cases in our family. What do we contribute - that seems to be the message here.

Interesting, the very skill that was not replaced when the two woman were abandoned is the very skill they use to create abundance and the very skill the impoverished group needed when they were re-connected - is that the message for elders - not to give up our essential skills because if society does not think they are needed they may not realize yet what is important?

OK I am getting ahead of myself - need to re-read - I am still struck at how well the stark surroundings in the first two chapters is almost a third character shining a spotlight on their feelings and how well those feelings were handled.

Oh dear, should not get political but cannot help thinking how the Hillary voters are feeling exactly as these two elder women when they were abandoned - so many Hillary voters feel they were abandoned by others that either did not vote or did not support or or or... my guess is - loss and abandonment is tied in one knot.   

I wonder if the description of the two women during their loss to the group is the way anyone else felt during a big loss in life? And can anyone think of a heroine in any book that is left on her own, that alone or with a female friend who is also alone, successfully takes care of themselves...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2016, 08:25:44 PM »
I bet Frybabe is thinking of the same book I am, dealing with a woman left alone to cope.  Remnant Population, a science fiction novel by Elizabeth Moon, tells of a woman who, when the colony on a new planet is forced to leave, elects to stay behind, taking her chances with the newly discovered population of sentient creatures.  There are many differences; she chooses to stay, her family hasn't cast her off, except emotionally, and she has all the physical resources the colony left behind, but there is some emotional overlap.

Kristen

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2016, 09:55:00 PM »
There are families today that "abandon" their elders to a nursing home and never visit or give emotional support.  While it's true that the elder won't freeze to death or starve, the sense of no one caring is still felt.  My friends from an Asian culture find it hard to understand how we treat older family members here.  One of them told me just yesterday, that he doesn't think he own children will take care of him when he is old because they have grown up in our society.
And what about our own society and the talk of medical rationing?  What we do may not seem as harsh as the tribe leaving the old women but do we sometimes do this in just a more seemingly humane way?  I read the other day about an insurance company that suggested assisted suicide to someone because of cost factors. How many of us don't want to be a burden to our families?
It's easy for me to think badly of the tribe until I start thinking about what sometimes goes on here.

bellamarie

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2016, 10:35:16 PM »
The tribe deciding to abandon these two women was heartbreaking for me.  Kristen you made some very good points in how we do seem to abandon the elderly in today's society.  And what about the mentally ill?  We don't give enough assistance to many groups today, the veterans are being ignored after they have went and fought years in the wars that has given us our freedoms today.  Walking away and leaving others to fend for themselves is becoming this generation's mindset. 

Barb, I can't at the present time think of a book where a woman or two were left in a situation such as these two women were, and had to survive on their own in a wilderness of extreme weather conditions, not to mention the threat of bears or other animals roaming in the night.  It does make me wonder if any women soldiers in Vietnam ever got stranded, and had to do their best to survive, like the stories my brother in law tells me about his time there.  He was stranded by himself with no food, water or shelter, living in a tree with only his gun for three solid days and nights, praying he did not make a move or sound to alert the enemy he was above them.  Reading Two Old Women really brings a light of reality to you, and makes you appreciate the life you have.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Kristen

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2016, 11:04:47 PM »
A couple of years ago, a homeless man froze to death in my city.  And there is a weekend package of food sent home with some of the school children to help them get through till the next school week.  Hunger is still prevalent in our society even though we don't like to think about it. My dad told me that during the depression, his father went hungry so my dad and his sisters could have enough to eat.  Certainly hunger and starvation is a problem for all societies not just the tribe we are reading about. 

marcie

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2016, 12:21:00 AM »
I'm appreciating the different perspectives on this book and comparisons with some aspects of our own society. There still are so many people today, even in our relatively prosperous society, who do not have enough to eat. We can probably think of many examples of people who have sacrificed to provide for others. PatH, as you say, these two women didn't make the choice for themselves. Kristin, you bring up good points about the "rationing" of healthcare today and how some insurance companies might be making decisions for others. There could be some parallels there. And Bellamarie, you're seeing other groups who seem to be abandoned by our society.

Barb, you're sharing a focus on the emotional abandonment felt by the two women. The stark and cold landscape helps us imagine the numbness they initially feel.

Nlhome, how wonderful that you talked to your librarian about this book. You are seeing how these women were looked at and how they looked at themselves, and how that changed and thinking about comparisons to seniors today. I think we'll be coming back to that often as we talk about this story.

Frybabe, I'm glad you were able to read so much of the book already. Yes, the harsh setting is integral to the harsh choices that the People have to make. 

JoanK, thank you for adding another dimension to our conversation by sharing your knowledge of the Athabascans from the Discovery progam.

Frybabe

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2016, 06:28:20 AM »
A few comment on the comments this morning.

JoanK, post #21. An overview of the subsistence living of the tribes today reminded me of something I read several years ago regarding the checks everyone in Alaska gets from the state as part of the oil revenues. If I remember correctly, in the case of the native populations, the tribes, rather than the individuals, get the check. The tribal counsel decides how the money is best to be spent for the good of the community and those in need. If I think of it later, I will double check that info.

PatH, post #23.  No, I didn't think of Remnant Population. Huh, and that is still one of the books that I recommend occasionally to others.

Kristen, post #24. You are quite right about some abandoning their elderly parents to assisted living homes. We put Mom into one because we were not able, at the time, to move her in with us (my youngest sister was willing, but Mom didn't want to move to NY). My sister and I here visited almost every day. One of the staff commented to me on this, expressing an appreciation and amazement at our devotion to our visits.

I still feel bad about our decision to put her in, but we were so very afraid that her frequent falls (more than we initially suspected) would result in a tumble down her stairs. I don't think Mom was happy about the move, especially since we didn't really give her much, if any, choice.

Kristen

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2016, 09:46:50 AM »
Sometimes we have no choice and do have to place someone in a nursing home.  It's great you visited so often.  I have heard that the people who have visitors actually get better care from the staff than those who don't because the staff knows the family will be checking on conditions. 

marcie

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2016, 11:43:03 AM »
That was a very difficult decision, Frybabe. There are sometimes no really good choices. If your mom had lived with you and fallen downstairs her condition could have been worse.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2016, 12:40:25 PM »
Thanks goodness you visited everyday Frybabe but it is still difficult for everyone involved - our lives today are not set up to include several generations in one structure - I think of those large homes in Switzerland, in fact in most of the Alpine area that do accommodate several generations and often an extended family where as, here we live independently, move away from family centers. We no longer admire or elevate the idea of living in the family homestead - its all about the job - we have become almost as nomadic as those in the story.

marcie isn't it sad that folks who get more family attention are the ones who get more family interaction but that the paid caretakers only do a good job if they think someone is around to complain - which is really saying that someone is noticing - hmm is that it - these are workers who give but need support to do top notch work while being kind. Maybe it is the management of nursing homes that has not stepped up.  Maybe staff is worrying about the bottom line in costs and is ignoring the bottom line in kindness, which constant giving kindly is draining for the best of us. I wonder, maybe since it does take an emotional involvement not everyone can afford to be emotionally involved knowing an attachment will form and that they will feel sadder when the person passes, in addition to not receiving support from management to be first, kind and second, cost conscious, so that the emotional well-being of staff is their own responsibility.

Hmm I wonder if that is it - folks want elders not to be on their radar as often as their children or even siblings because the Children represent hope and future love where as, the elder is an unchanging love, the love that can be depended upon, that has always been there but because they are going to die, facing the knowledge of that grief does not feel good. To get ready or to feel less grief the elder that is out of sight and out of mind makes it easier. 

There is something that happens in our society that would be nice to uncover - I have noticed over the years a difference visiting a doctor - I have always looked much younger than my years - until I turned 80 folks assumed I was maybe 65 and many thought I was even younger - I've been active and I worked as anyone younger - and so I was treated with the same cheeriness by the nurse till the chart was read with my age - all of a sudden I was no longer an individual but a predictable part of a group that should have this or that with no individual attention to my explaining my problem that brought me there in the first place. This is how today elders are dismissed with a preconceived idea of their needs and contribution to a group. No wonder most elders do not want to be a part of even a neighborhood civic minded gathering - they are quickly dismissed as having no appreciable input. I wonder if it is all part of the power struggle that goes on in any informal group.

Well we cannot solve the aging question but thanks Kristen for seeing the connection that this story touches on how today, elders are still abandoned.  I am anxious to look closer at the solution taken by these two women elders - because that is it isn't it - we do not have a litany of books showing solutions - we have many stories of how children are abandoned both physically and emotionally and what they do to overcome that predicament but few stories of elders so that there is no stock role models.   
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2016, 05:43:23 PM »
I agree, Frybabe, a hard choice, but the best available.

There are lots of reasons why someone gets better attention if they are visited a lot.  People unconsciously put a higher value on someone if they see that others love and respect them.  And, even if you aren't going to be scolded, it's harder to do sloppy work if you know someone will see it.  And a family member can make things much more pleasant by tactfully suggesting minor changes.  Sometimes a little thing makes a big difference in comfort.

PatH

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2016, 05:54:55 PM »
Back to our two abandoned old ladies.  Ch'idzigyaak's daughter didn't want to leave her mother behind, but was terrified of the reaction of the People if she objected (correctly, as we learn from Sa' s history).  But she surreptitiously slips her mother the important bundle of babiche (moosehide).  And the daughter tells the grandson not to object either, and he too sneaks a gift to the women--his hatchet.  The gifts are crucial.  Without them, the women would have little chance of surviving.

Kristen

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2016, 06:09:38 PM »
Yes, the daughter and grandson did the best they could in a very bad situation. 

bellamarie

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2016, 06:24:41 PM »
Yes, the moosehide and hatchet were valuable to the tribe and for these to be given to the two women without the tribe knowing was a huge risk the daughter and grandson took.  It showed how much they truly loved her, even though they were put in a situation they had to leave them behind.  As I read this I struggled with if I could personally have left my elderly mother.  When my mother was in the hospital for her last time near death, I camped out in the hospital lobby, only going home every other day to shower.  I had a personal bag of items I would need daily so I did not have to leave her side.  I have six siblings who went home to their husbands and children each night.  My hubby was loving and understanding enough to allow me to do what I had to do, and he made sure our three teens were taken care of.  She passed away two weeks after being put on a ventilator and strangely enough five of us siblings decided to spend the night in the lobby and were able to be at her bedside when she drew her last breath. 

We had a ninety year old neighbor my hubby and I were helping take care of whose family made the decision to place him in a nursing home and I can agree that patients are indeed treated differently if they have someone coming on a regular basis to visit the.  We took our three young children to visit him and the staff was very friendly and watched over him very closely.  I did see where other patients were neglected, and was told they had no one coming to visit them.  It's a difficult decision to make, and every family must make it with the best quality of care for their loved one, in their mind and heart. 

This story sure hits on not only the emotional side but also the physical side of aging.  Ughhh....
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

marcie

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2016, 01:55:21 AM »
Yes, the daughter and grandson took chances to give those items to the women, without knowing how well they would be able to use them. It was probably thought by many that the two women would not be able to survive for very long. It was amazing that Sa's body --her reflexes -- seemed to remember how to throw the hatchet at just the right angle to kill the squirrel. She had done so many times earlier in her life but not for a very long time.

Frybabe

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2016, 07:28:26 AM »
At Mom's assisted living home, there was a woman down the hall who was such a chronic complainer. This was not her first home and it wasn't her last; she left for another place to the relief to most of the residents and the staff. She rarely, if ever, had family (apparently she had some) or others visiting. I tried to pay a little attention to her without taking time away from Mom. It is difficult to sit and listen to someone who complains about everything. My mother-in-law was pretty much the same way, so I was used to it up to a point. So sad.

Back to the story. I was quite taken by the ordeal of just moving themselves and what little they had to the fishing camp. Every time my arthritis acts up, I will probably think of them and how they pushed through their pain and weariness.

PatH

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2016, 09:05:40 AM »
I was going to say the same thing.  If I had pushed myself that hard, I can't believe I would unstiffen enough the next day to get going.  I guess the knowledge that not moving will kill you is a good motivator.

In this section I'm getting an appreciation for the harsh, bleak, beautiful, unforgiving landscape.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2016, 10:18:10 AM »
Complainers are difficult to be around aren't they Frybabe - to be compassionate is our first impulse but none of us are psychologists and I think there is little help for people nearing the end of their life - there is some geriatric information but not a whole lot is there. One of the best books I ever read that I think every family with an elder could benefit is, How to Say It to Seniors - Closing the Communication Gap with Our Elders. by David Solie, M.S. P.A. 

Facing all the losses alone makes it a bit harder - I can hardly imagine these two women attempting half of this alone. Pat as you say pushing our bodies as these two would be almost un-imaginable - it is difficult for me to take my walks - living alone it is easier to say, oh I've this or that which is more important or, I just do not feel like it and it does not matter - interesting how we do not say it does not matter when we are living with another - hate the idea of any kind of group living but there is value in being with another. hmm Of course these two have known each other all their lives - I know I was far more active when my good friend of 45 years and I would do so much together including a weekly home prepared meal.

Interesting is the order they took care of themselves - using the gifts from daughter and grandson the secured food and shelter then build transportation that for them was snow shoes and then decided on a suitable place to live taking into consideration they wanted to be safe as well as be close to a consistent food source. They then pull up stakes and with their belongings travel to this place - took them 5 days.

Five the number of man - the human microcosm forming a pentagon with outstretched arms and legs - hmm and the story includes how their limbs stiffen at night - The pentagon is endless the symbol of perfection - so each is perfection regardless our age - The pentagon showing man with outstretched limbs is the Central Creator of the four great forces, an integral individuality with spiritual aspirations, the five senses and education.

The symbolism for water as it relates to this story is amazing - almost a story in itself - myths have so much power and the symbolism uncovers some of that power - Water, in particular deep water like a sea or lake are associated with the  realm of the dead, the abode of super natural beings and are closely connected with the Great Mother - our two elders skirt the lake - symbolically as if skirting death - Crossing waters is to change from one ontological state to another and can be both the power of life and death, so it can divide and unite as life-giving or life-destroying.

OH my of course they had to be abandoned in winter - ice symbolizes rigidity, brittleness, impermanence, the harness of heart and absence of love. Melting ice is the softening of the hardness of heart.  Well they sure cross a  hardness of heart when crossing the river but, it is done cautiously since the ice is thinner with an undercurrent that erodes the ice - is that suggesting an undercurrent of love that will erode the icy heart.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Kristen

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Re: Two Old Women ~ November Book Club Online. Starting Nov. 14 on entire book
« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2016, 11:29:31 AM »
This book and these two old women have made me take stock of my own life.  I tend to use my age and ailments as an excuse for not doing things I used to do.  My doctor has given me a verbal list of things I should avoid so my knees won't get worse so some activities are out of the question.  Even knitting and crocheting is out because of arthritis in my hands. But I use my age and ailments to avoid many things I could do.   The doctor did say I should exercise.  My exercise bike just gathers dust.  When I do try to use it, I can do so little.  If I work at it every day, I start to build up endurance again, but it is so much easier and enjoyable to sit in a chair and watch TV or read a book.  If my life depended on it, like the two old women, I am sure I would make time every day for it.
Following along in the story and realizing how much they were able to accomplish makes me realize that I could and should be doing a lot more for myself.  Carrying in heavy groceries, instead of just the light ones is an example.  I just don't know if this book will motivate me enough to make some needed changes.  I sure hope it does.