Author Topic: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell  (Read 33328 times)

BooksAdmin

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CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« on: January 03, 2017, 08:33:52 PM »
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. 
We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.



January Book Club Online

Cranford

by Elizabeth Gaskell

Published in 1853, Cranford is the story of a town that is
"in the possession of the Amazons."

Some delightful older women are battling to preserve the way of life and
the social structure in Cranford in the face of the "progress"
brought by the Industrial Revolution. 

Join us we read this autobiographical novel and get to know
the ladies of Cranford.

Discussion Schedule

Based on the episodes as they were published in Household Words.
(Depending how comfortable we are with the rate of reading and discussion, we can be flexible with the dates.)

  • January 2-11. Pre-discussion of the Victorian period, the author, and any questions you may have about the discussion process.
  • January 11- 15 Episode 1 Our Society at Cranford - Chapters 1-2
  • January 16-19  Episode 2 A Love Affair at Cranford - Chapters 3-4
  • January 20-23  Episode 3 Memory at Cranford - Chapters 5-6
  • January 24-27  Episode 4 Visiting at Cranford - Chapters 7-8
  • January 28-31  Episode 5 The Great Cranford Panic - Chapters 9-11
  • February 1-4    Episode 6 Stopped Payment at Cranford - Chapters 12-13
  • February 5-9    Episode 7 Friends in Need at Cranford - Chapter 14
  • February 10-13 Episode 8 A Happy Return to Cranford - Chapters 15-16
  • February 14      Final Thoughts. Happy Valentines Day

Some Topics to Focus on As You Read
  • The structure of society
  • The place of women in society
  • The narrator
  • The men in Cranford
  • Relationships among women
  • Changes that come to Cranford and attitudes about those changes

Relevant Links
  • Cranford Gutenberg online for free.
  • Victorian Web  This amazing link is for all things Victorian,  begun in 1987 with new information added each year.

Discussion Leader: mkaren557

Mkaren557

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2017, 10:20:46 PM »
Welcome to the pre-discussion for the book Cranford by Elizabeth Gaskell. I will start out by telling you all that I love this book and I love the ladies of Cranford.   During the pre-discussion please feel free to ask any questions about the Victorian Period, or about the author.  How about we start by talking about any Victorian novels or poetry you have read?  How did you feel about the book or the books that you read? 
     Let's try not to get into the discussion of Cranford until January 11.  In the meantime, get your book, a cup of tea, and your favorite sweet treat and start reading.  The reading assignments are based on the way the novel was first published in Dicken's magazine Household Words --- a couple of chapters at a time.

Frybabe

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2017, 06:09:36 AM »
Good morning!

I haven't started reading the book yet, but as a prelude, I did watch the first season of Masterpiece Theatre's Cranford.

Mkaren557

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2017, 07:53:49 AM »
Welcome to the book club, Frybabe!  The Masterpiece Theater Cranford is so well done.  I just read a criticism of the book in which the critic said that she saw it on PBS and then read the book.  She loved each in its own way.  One way to read this is section by section as we discuss it; then you will be a true Victorian reader.

PatH

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2017, 10:38:45 AM »
Frybabe, the Masterpiece Cranford is very good, but theydid shuffle and redeal the plot some.

CallieOK

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2017, 11:58:47 AM »
X   marking my spot.   

PatH

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2017, 12:01:14 PM »
Hi, Callie.

bellamarie

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2017, 12:10:51 PM »
Good morning, or should I say almost afternoon.  The first time I ever read Elizabeth Gaskell was awhile back when we read Wives and Daughters.  I fell in love with Gaskell's writing.  She does remind me a lot of Jane Austen, my all time favorite author in this genre. The first book I was ever introduced to the English/Victorian era was Sense and Sensebility.  Oh my!  I began reading and remember thinking to myself, "Why in God's name does this author use so many complicated words to say a simple thought?"  It took me awhile to get used to the English way of speaking.  Once I placed myself into the era of the story I just fell head over heels for this genre of writing.  When Downtown Abbey came to tv I did not know what all the rave was.  I decided four seasons in to go rent all the previous seasons and do a week long marathon catching up before the next season was to begin.  Needless to say, I felt like I had plopped myself right into the setting of a Gaskell or Austen novel.  I was hooked!  Sadly, Dowtown came to an end, I have read every Austen book written, and now look forward to Crandford!

Karen and Rosemary I will admit prior to this discussion, I know very little of the history of this era, and did horrible in History in school, so I will rely on your knowledge and first hand living there to guide me through.  I like to see myself as a reader of enjoyment, picking up a bit of knowledge along the way.  The human character of the people are what I find most fascinating, their humor, idiosyncrasies, strengths, and weaknesses capture my attention.  Not to mention a little bit of love and war peppered in adds the spice to the story. 

So can I ask, would it ruin it for me to watch Crandford, before reading the book?  I never read ahead in our book discussions because I love the suspense of discovering what comes next.  Maybe I will wait to watch it after the book. 

Got my tea & honey, biscotti, and cuddly blanket on this cold windy day, so ready to begin this discussion.  ☕️🍪
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2017, 01:01:18 PM »
Marking my spot - a dreary day - wish I could just stop and read but lots to catch up on first... till later...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Mkaren557

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2017, 01:20:10 PM »
Thank you, Bella, for joining the pre-discussion.  The goal I have for all of us is that we enjoy reading Cranford. We all need to do what we feel inspired to do as we read and discuss.  This will be the fifth time I read this book; I have also seen the PBS Cranford, parts one and two. I can honestly tell you that I did not feel as if watching the video spoiled the book for me at all.  Others may feel differently but have fun with this.
     You really don't have to know the history of the Victorian period to read or to comprehend the book.  I get very curious when I read something from another culture or era.  Now that I have the internet, I often go online to answer questions like "Did this really happen?"  Why do they do this or that?" When I browse the internet I find out other things that I want to read about.  When we took history in school, most of the focus was on the political/ military history; what really interests me is social and cultural history. I want to know what the ordinary people were doing, how were women viewed, what about the very young and the very old. and on, and on. This is what reading fiction does for me and I hope for all of us.  We will know how it felt to be living in a small city  near a large industrial city during the last half of the nineteenth century. 
     Happy reading!
     



rosemarykaye

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2017, 01:55:37 PM »
Hi all,

I have found it useful to make a note of the dates of Queen Victoria's reign (1837-1901) to keep by me during these discussions. As is typical of school history lessons in England, I don't think we ever got up to Victoria - spent far too long on the Middle Ages and all the tedious battles.

Re other Victorian novels, I first read Middlemarch (published 1871-2) a few years ago and I am going to have to admit that i did not enjoy it. Illustrious authors like AS Byatt have spoken of it as the best novel ever written, but although I didn't exactly hate it, I just could not see what there was to rave about.

By contrast, I loved Jane Eyre (written around 1847), The Moonstone (1868), Tess of the D'Urbervilles (1891), and most especially Vanity Fair (1848). And I also very much enjoy Dickens, particularly Bleak House (1852), Great Expectations (1860) and A Tale of Two Cities (1859). I have been trying to think about why I liked these books - I think it must be a combination of the page-turning plots (with lots of mystery, especially in Vanity Fair and Bleak House) and the insight into the way people lived 150 or so years ago.

I have not read a great deal of Victorian poetry - I was force-fed Tennyson at university and can't remember a thing about it.

I do however love the Gilbert and Sullivan operettas, which are still performed very frequently here, mainly by amateur companies. The Mikado,The Pirates of Penzance, HMS Pinafore, Patience, Iolanthe and The Gondoliers are all very popular.

I also adored Downton Abbey, Bellemarie, but I don't think it gave an accurate view of Victorian life for anyone other than the landed gentry. The servants generally had a much harder life than they do in the TV series.

I have not seen the TV series of Cranford so I can't say if it would spoil the book!  So tempting to get it on DVD but I will try to wait till the end of our discussion.

And speaking of DVDs, two films that I think tell us about middle class life for women in or just after the Victorian era are Testament of Youth and Miss Potter. In Testament of Youth Vera Brittain's true story about her life before and during the First World War, we see a woman frustrated by the mores of the time, which forbad her from having a career (she eventually went as a nurse to the field hospitals in France); in Miss Potter we see another woman whose family did all they could to prevent her having an independent life - Beatrix Potter of course ended up making enough money from her books to buy farms in the Lake District and help to found the National Trust.

Tonight only my younger daughter and myself are here, so we will be indulging ourselves by watching some of the TV that we recorded over the holidays because no-one else wanted to see it - eg the Call the Midwife Christmas Special and Last Tango in Halifax. And speaking of realism, I think the early series of Call the Midwife did a pretty good job of showing the appalling conditions in the London slums in the 1950s. Of course this was fifty years after the death of Queen Victoria, but I doubt that much had changed in the tenements and back-to-backs. The film Vera Drake shows similar hardship in 1950s London.

Think that's enough from me!

Rosemary



BarbStAubrey

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2017, 02:19:00 PM »
I am so excited about reading Village life mid nineteenth century - all the gossip that still goes on in small communities and the little indiscretions that take on such importance like when I was young, the laundry had to be hanging on the line by 10: on Monday morning or you were considered a slouch - then the grocer who knew everyone's affairs but usually kept it to himself where as not so at the dry goods store where ladies purchased their thread and fabric for their new Easter dress - and this is just what I remember so what will we read about Cranford ladies in the 1840s - fun fun -

Yep, looking forward to a chuckle and wry smile as the small struggles of living become as important as the issues in London where they were building Euston Station - Trafalgar Square and erecting the Nelson column. They must have been also building Parliament since it was destroyed by fire in 1834.

Buttons, Bows, Tea, proper dress and etiquette - village style is what I'm hoping will charm us through January. 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Jonathan

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2017, 10:47:42 PM »
Thanks, Barb. That has persuaded me to read Cranford. A happy read to get me through this damned Canadian winter. It starts getting dark mid afternoon.

A  wonderful pre-discussion. What an opportunity to learn something more about 'Victorian' literature with Karen's help. Somehow I'm not surprised to learn that it's 'preceded by romanticism and followed by realism. Can't get romantic if you exclude the men, as they do in Cranford. And where's the realism if you exclude what's happening in the world at large?

My copy of Cranford has my brother's name in it and was used in our Ontario high schools, and so was David Copperfield. My oh my, that was a long time ago. My Cranford has sixteen chapters.

I highly reccommend reading this book by candlelight. I shall do so. That will get some romance into it. Over to you, ladies. I'm listening.

bellamarie

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2017, 12:47:08 AM »
Jonathan, I am so happy to hear you will be reading Crandford with us.  I so enjoy you and your insights.  Hmmm... reading by candlelight?  I may give it a try.  Rosemary, I watched a bit of Call the Midwife and the conditions were pretty awful.  Barb, laundry on the line by 10: a.m., Or the neighbors thought you were a slouch!  Oh if my neighbors only knew how many days I never get out of my pjs til noontime, thank goodness times have changed.  Or have they?  Maybe my attitude has changed and I just don't care what my neighbors think!  😉
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Mkaren557

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2017, 09:11:32 AM »
Good Morning to you all,
     Thank you so much for your questions, comments, and information sharing.
     Rosemary, I just love it when I get tips on books or movies.  I already love Call the Midwife and have watched each episode at least twice.  I understand your horror, Bella, at the terrible conditions you saw in the first episodes.  Some things had improved in the fifty years since Victoria's death.  Just the existence of the health services saved lives.  I have never seen Testament of Youth.  It goes on my list today. 
     I have never seen an entire Gilbert & Sullivan performance.  I must keep my eyes and ears open for something local. 
     Barb, one thing it will be fun to look at in Cranford is any similarites to life in small towns today. I get more excited each time I come onto the pre-discussion and you are all here.
     Welcome, Jonathan, welcome to Cranford.  I don't know that we can do much for the Canadian winter except warm your heart.  I got out my candle this morning and tried to read.  It is no easy task with these aging eyes, but there is something very calming about candle light  - - - and it is romantic.  I am looking forward to your comments.

bellamarie

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2017, 10:09:53 AM »
Good morning!  I opened my book and am wondering if everyone else's book has these parts to them. Karen maybe you can help in letting us know if we plan to include them in our discussion. 

My book has:

Chronology      (This gives account from Gaskell's birth to death)
Introduction    (New readers are advised that the Introduction makes details of the plot explicit.) 
Further Reading (Lists of other books: Biographical, Bibliographical, Criticism)
Note on the Text

Cranford I

Appendix I:   More on Cranford: The Last Generation in England' and 'The Cage at Cranford'  (pages 189-206)
Appendix II:  The Nature and Role of Women   (pages 207-218)
Appendix III: Fashion at Cranford     (pages 219-224)  This has some pictures to show the types of hats and dresses.
Glossary  (I was glancing through the glossary and it is quite helpful with words used back then.)
Notes   (This section is broken down by chapters to help us with better understanding.)

Also, my book as Jonathan mentions his as well has sixteen chapters, where as in the heading above shows only nine chapters.  If it will help these are the listed chapters in my book which were Episode titles in Household Worlds (followed by novel chapter numbers)

Our Society at Cranford  (1-2)
A Love Affair at Cranford  (3-4)
Memory at Cranford  (5-6)
Visiting at Cranford  (7-8)
The Great Cranford Panic  (9-11)
Stopped Payment at Cranford  (12-13)
Friends in Need, at Cranford  (14)
A Happy Return to Cranford  (15-16)

As I was typing this I noticed I have been using the wrong spelling adding a letter "d" after the "n" in Cranford.  Ooops!   ::)

My book cover looks like this:







“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Mkaren557

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2017, 10:52:51 AM »
Thank you!  Thank you, Bella.  My book has 16 chapters as well.  For now ignore the list of chapters for discussion, which I will redo today.  Just know that on January 11 we will begin discussing Chapter 1 Our Society and Chapter 2 The Captain.  Your book is exactly like mine.
    I did read the Introduction a couple of times for my own information, but some recommend that we don't read the introduction until the end.  So do what makes sense to you.  I also read the footnotes after each chapter.  There is good information in them but I hate flipping back and forth.  Appendix 1 is the first article that Gaskell wrote about Cranford; I read this after I read the book; Appendix 2 is more information about Gaskell and some letters and other info. about the Victorian period.  So, my advice would be to focus on the text itself and read the rest as it appeals to you.

bellamarie

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2017, 11:23:54 AM »
Thanks Karen for getting back to me, good to know we have the same books.  I will hold off on the Introductory since there is a warning of explicit plot revealed.  The other sections are in the ending of the book so like you said, I will hold off on that as well and just concentrate on chapter 1 & 2. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanK

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2017, 05:02:04 PM »
Sorry to be a day late: I lost track of the days.

I completely agree with this ".  When we took history in school, most of the focus was on the political/ military history; what really interests me is social and cultural history." I want to know what ordinary people like you and me were doing, thinking, planning and dreaming.

I'm all ready for Cranford, thanks to PatH. For Christmas, she gave me a delightful book called "How to be a Victorian." by Ruth Goodman (I had given PatH another book by her "How to be a Tudor", which was a hoot).

 The book gives all the petty details of Victorian life, what they ate, wore, did with their day. Of course, I immediately turned to the chapter titled "Behind the Closed Bedroom Door" Details upon request: we'll see if they match Gaskell.

Today, I'll look and see what they ate at "tea", so we can have period snacks with our tea while we read.

Mkaren557

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2017, 05:30:15 PM »
Welcome Joan,

I love the idea of snacks with our tea.  The book from Pat sounds like such fun.  I hope you will share with us as we read.   I used to have my sophomores do a trimester project as we did 19th century British history.  They had to become a famous person from that time period which involved researching.  Then they had to write 15 journal entries spaced through the life of the person as their person might have written them; they had to write a personal letter to a friend; then they had to dress as their person would have dressed and make a presentation to the other class members on a topic of their choice.  Finally, we would have tea, crumpets, where we would evaluate the process of doing that project. I was usually amazed with the final products.  Since I have retired I have gotten notes from kids that go like this:  The only thing I remember from history is when I was Charlotte Bronte, Cardinal Newman, or Charles Darwin. The fun part of teaching history, for sure.

rosemarykaye

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2017, 06:00:30 PM »
What a great teacher you were, Karen (and I'm sure still are!). My history lessons at school were as dull as ditchwater - I actually started A-Level History and got so bored I gave it up and took Latin instead. I love historical novels and TV series, but as with English literature itself, bad teaching can squeeze all the life out of wonderful subjects. These days teachers here are also so constrained by the demands of the National Curriculum, the constant testing and the way that schools are rated according to exam results that they simply don't have time to explore pupils' interests and questions.

That book sounds great Pat - I'm going to look it up.

Rosemary

bellamarie

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2017, 11:23:14 PM »
Joan, so good to have you join in.  I love how you and Pat thought to give each other a book on "How to be a Victorian/Tudor."  I hope you will share with us along the way.  I had to giggle at you going to the bedroom section.  😂😂

Karen, that is the best form of a compliment for your past students to come back years later to tell you how much they enjoyed your class.  I have been blessed to have my students stop me years later and tell me how I made their time in my computer lab so enjoyable while learning.  I would love to have been in your 19th century history class.  I hated History in school and I know it was partly due to the teacher being so boring.  You would have been a joy to have as a teacher.

Rosemary, the testing is the same here in Ohio.  Teachers are leaving their professions they have enjoyed for years due to the common core, and the standardized testing.  This subject could be a whole new discussion in itself. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanK

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2017, 07:31:17 PM »
Ha! Goodman let me down: she doesn't discuss "tea, the meal.," But my mystery stories and google do. I remembered that in the British mysteries I read by the bucketful, they are always eating "Victoria Sponge cakes", and looked for them. Indeed, they were supposed to be the favorite cake of Queen Victoria. Layers of sponge cake with jam spread between and top dusted with castor sugar. ( may have seen it made on the Great British Baking Show on PBS.

Here is a short history and recipe. Enjoy.

http://teainengland.com/2012/12/the-victoria-sponge-its-history-and-a-recipe/

Mkaren557

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2017, 08:00:48 PM »
Thank you, Joan, for your research on tea.  When I watch the Great British Baking Show, they are always talking about the quality of their sponge.  That must be what that's about.

rosemarykaye

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2017, 05:50:01 AM »
Victoria sponge often features in afternoon tea! Also cakes, scones (small), sometimes sandwiches, possibly mini vol-au-vents.

As you can imagine, afternoon tea no longer looms large in most people's everyday menu, but nowadays it is offered at many hotels, cafes and restaurants - some include champagne or sparking wine, which most definitely would not have formed a part of the Victorian tea. The company that runs the cafes in our National Galleries and Signet Library here in Edinburgh does it - you can see it here: https://www.nationalgalleries.org/visit/cafes/ and here: http://www.thesignetlibrary.co.uk/colonnades/afternoon-tea/

I think middle and upper class Victorians would always have had it (viz Downton), though goodness knows how they managed to eat a huge dinner a few hours later.

Even today it is quite usual to stop for a cup of tea mid-afternoon, though it will often be drunk at one's desk. Tea seems to be making a comeback amongst the hipsters of Edinburgh; there are now entire shops devoted to it, with ridiculously inflated prices to match (though of course when tea first arrived in England it was prohibitively expensive and the lady of the house kept the key to the tea caddy).

I don't know why it is so much more popular here than in mainland Europe (presumably something to do with our association with India?) - in hotels that I have stayed in in France, Spain, etc all that has been provided is a couple of Liptons teabags (awful - no-one would ever buy that stuff here) and usually no milk at all. In fact I think the custom of providing tea & coffee making facilities in hotel rooms is a peculiarly British thing - we stayed in some wonderful chambres d'hote in France last summer but only one of them provided a kettle (and the owner was well travelled).

Even long after the Victorian era, afternoon tea is still mentioned in the novels of people like Barbara Pym, Angela Thirkell and DE Stevenson, who I think were writing in the first half of the 20th century. By Pym's last book (Quartet in Autumn - the title says it all...), however, proper tea was a thing of the past - though maybe that was because by then she was focusing on rather sad, lonely people who were down on their financial luck, as opposed to the comfortable middle-class sisters of Some Tame Gazelle or the affluent Wilmet in A Glass of Blessings.

When I was a student in the late 1970s we still invited one another round for tea sometimes, but I think even we knew that we were just pretending. Having said that, the University Library in Cambridge was still thronging with people - students, academics - at around 3.30pm every day, when everyone gladly left their work and met up for the tea room's fabulous (though not in the least smart) scones.

Am I right in thinking that in the southern states of the US, iced tea was a big thing? I imagine ladies sitting in those swinging seats on verandahs, sipping tea and exchanging the local gossip.

Rosemary

Mkaren557

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2017, 09:31:45 AM »
Thank you for  clarifying "sponge" as well as more information on tea, Rosemary.  Tea will be significant in Cranford.
      In the 1700s the British East India Company began a trade with China based on the barter system.  The Chinese wanted cotton cloth from the British and the British, of course, wanted tea.  The problem was that the Chinese were saturated with cotton cloth and no longer wanted to take it in trade; they wanted silver.  The British were on the gold standard and and the Chinese wanted silver, not gold.  So the British, being very clever, knew that the other thing that the Chinese wanted was opium.  So the British would go to India where they controlled areas where Opium was grown buy or take the opium where they would sell it to merchants who would pay them in silver and they would buy tea and take it back to England.  Soon the Chinese outlawed the sale of opium but that led to an underground illegal trade to support the growing Chinese opium addiction and the British "addiction" to tea.  Which explains one way India was involved with the tea.
     I had high tea a few years ago at the Empress Hotel in Victoria, British Columbia CA.  I would do that again in a heartbeat.  Each person had a 3-tiered silver serving dish with the most scrumptious sandwiches and sweets.  Luckily I had that at 1:00 pm and didn't eat dinner until well into the evening. 
     I live in Florida so I have often sat on a porch and had iced tea, which southerners drink by the bucket.  The ice trade in America began in the early 1800s in New England, which shipped ice to the southern US and to the Caribbean.  I know before that the Plantations had undergroung "cold" rooms to keep food and maybe to cool drinks.
     

 


rosemarykaye

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2017, 09:39:34 AM »
That's fascinating Mkaren - I had some sort of vague idea about the tea thing, but certainly didn't know all these details; thank you.

The big British 'stately homes' also had places to store ice - outdoor 'ice houses', usually underground - but it must have been much more of a struggle to keep things cold in the southern states. When my mother was first married in the early 1950s she had no fridge, just a 'food safe' that they kept outside to put the milk in.

Yes, I'd definitely only be able to eat a full afternoon tea as a substitute lunch. Maybe the Victorians just picked at it, and ate smaller portions at dinner?

How lovely to have a porch! It would be pretty pointless in Scotland, I'm afraid.

Rosemary

Jonathan

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2017, 03:12:48 PM »
'I imagine ladies sitting in those swinging seats on verandahs, sipping tea and exchanging the local gossip.'

I'm allowing my imagination to play with that idea, Rosemary, and it seems too precarious. Between the lively gossip and the motion I see only disaster. But perhaps that's the result of being traumatized in our high school dramatization of the play Disraeli, when, as the butler, I served up a cup of tea. (I was stage managing, but playing the occasional small part). I still remember rattling across the stage with the delicate cup and saucer. I could hear the snickers.

I'm delighted to hear about a 'plot' in our book. And even the possibility of 'spoilers' in reading ahead. That's more than I can imagine. I've travelled around England and found the villages  absolutely charming. I can see the postcards but I can't conjure up the plots. However, Mrs Gaskell has the ability to make it dramatic.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2017, 03:34:36 PM »
Interesting thought crossed my mind - Gaskell has the ability to make it dramatic - placing the spotlight and seeing the importance in the little things - our lives are filled with days and days of little things - are we missing the value of the bulk of our lives - are we only choosing to remember the events, the trips, the big planned for accomplishments - we certainly celebrate them with souvenirs and photos - we love sharing the adventure of these bigger events - even the unusual occurrences as we encounter strangers or for that matter anything that raises our emotions, either anxiety or well-being within or outside our home.

Hmm what would it be like to look at the minutia of our lives more closely and see their importance to our well-being - the beauty - the wonder of it - we take things like clearing the table or choosing the dish to place our dinner on or even the look and feel of the foods we choose we take it all for granted - sometime I'm even annoyed since we would rather get to what we call more interesting or more exciting - we miss the satisfaction of the bulk of our lives that these authors like Gaskell and Austen or even Dickinson notice, seeing the charm and the small assaults to our senses, including them as the setting that adds to the theme of their story. 

I wonder if I could do it for a day - focus on each aspect of my actions - even my thoughts  - the weather - what I see around me - I wonder... 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Mkaren557

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2017, 04:14:00 PM »
     One of the important questions in this book is about "plot."  Gaskell put this book together from the stories she wrote for Household Words.  How does that affect our reading?  What about unity and flow?  Are there any problems with chronology?  Be thinking about these  things as you read.  Thank you for getting me thinking about these basic questions, Jonathan.  Did that performance end your acting career?

    Barbara, as I was reading your beautiful thoughts, I all of a sudden realized that every time I read Cranford, I slow down and consciously read each sentence so I won't miss anything.  I may take your challenge and for one day I will "Live deliberately."
Usually when I read I am conscious about where I am and how much more I have to read.  For some reason I am able to relax into Cranford. Please don't put a lot of pressure on yourself.  If we have to slow down the discussion, we will. 



JoanK

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2017, 06:52:44 PM »
From the T series, I got the impression that little things were very important to the ladies of Cranford, as they become to me, as I slow down at the end of my life.

One British idea that we Americans don't have is that of "the gentry."  Most of the characters in Victorian novels are gentry, and it helps to understand it. I'll try my Americanized version of it, ROSEMARY, correct me if I'm wrong.

Short version: it's the English version of "the best society." In England, social class is more important than it is in America (although it can be important here, too.) The upper class is the landowners (traditionally, land was the source of wealth and power). But land and wealth is passed down to the oldest son. this leaves a lot of younger sons and daughters who have the birth and upbringing to be upper class, but little or no money or property. These are the gentry.

there were strict norms on what they should or shouldn't do. The men could work but only in a few approved occupations: officers in the army or navy, lawyers, or the clergy.(or go to the colonies to make their fortunes.} Women, of course, were expected to marry "well." The lucky few married a lord and became a lady: the others were to marry a landowner or someone in one of the approved occupations.

If a woman didn't marry or her husband died, and left her unprovided for, her options were few. She could live a a "poor relation" wither wealthier relative, work as a governess in a landowners family. f she had a small stipend, she would live in "genteel poverty." She might be as poor as the poor working class families, but she was not one of them, and it was very important to maintain that difference, to maintain the small differences in style and manners that marked her as gentry, the small things could become terribly important, not as a source of pleasure, but as a source of identity: lacking money or property to mark her as upper class, style becomes everything: the mark of who she is.

Of course, other people could work their way into the gentry, but it was difficult, and formed the basis for many a novel plot.


Mkaren557

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2017, 07:33:48 PM »
       I think you are "right on," Joan.  The big problem for this group is the newly rich factory owners and those who have grown wealthy during the Industrial Revolution who are trying to imitate the gentry, to become leaders in society. The gentry find them boorish, without refinement, and Methodist, most of the aristocracy and gentry were Church of England at the beginning of the Victorian era.  The wealth of this group is growing and so is their influence so the industrialists are beginning to make inroads into society.  However, Rosemary may have a better explanation and more detail.

bellamarie

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2017, 12:10:03 AM »
I'm not even going to try to pretend I know much about the lifestyles of the aristocrats in England back in the Victorian era, but from what I have read and movies I have seen, I have always had the impression that the true aristocrats were those who were generational wealthy.  Those whose have name, property and money from passed down, so they look their noses down at the working class who try to achieve this gentry, Joan mentions.  Rosemary, without any disrespect or to be offensesive, the English articocrisy appear to be snobs.  In saying this, I also feel that's part of the interest and appeal others have of wanting to be a part of their lifestyle.  I know I personally have been fascinated in the Royal family since the wedding of Prince Charles and Diana.  I have an Ashton Drake doll collection of her, many books on her and the royal family, and watch anything and everything to do with Prince William and Kate.  Now that they have those two darling little children I am even more interested in seeing how they raise them.  Rosemary, quite possibly you living in this country, you don't necessarily see this, and if so wonder what all the fascination is all about.

Barb, you made some good points about taking the time to appreciate the little things in life.  I multitask so much every day I can't seem to bring myself to really settled in to read a book without my iPad, iPhone, computer and tv all on, with me constantly checking them.  I can't remember the last time I just read a book without these distractions.  I may give it a try.  With social media, especially Facebook, it seems people need to do everything grand scale and post it before than can even get home from vacations or events. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

rosemarykaye

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2017, 09:25:19 AM »
I wouldn't pretend to know much about the history of the aristocracy and the gentry, but I am sure you are right in saying that 'old money' looked down on 'new money' - and it's still the case today. The aristocracy is alive and well, and would not give the time of day to people who've made fortunes through things like computer technology, theme parks or whatever - they may have to cosy up to some of these people to get them to come and publicise events that they are obliged to hold to pay for the running of their estates, but that would be as far as it ever went.

In Victorian times, it was as you say industrialists who were the 'new money'. Some of them wanted to be accepted and integrated into the aristocracy (this was never going to happen) - George Warleggan in Poldark is a prime example of this. Others just thought the aristocracy was ridiculous and went on their merry and newly affluent ways rejoicing.

The class system is still underpinned by all the little details that single people out and distance them from people they think 'lower' than them. For example, in East Lothian there is a village called Gullane. It's where affluent people from Edinburgh retire, or have second homes. People who consider themselves a cut above others always call it 'Gillane' - for no apparent reason other than it marks them out as posh.

And in Edinburgh, where old money is rife, you will still see little old ladies, who may now be living on very small pensions and finding it hard to heat their New Town (smart) apartments, tottering along to their local shop and still treating people  including the often immigrant shopkeepers, with the haughty arrogance that comes with their class and upbringing. Fortunately most shopkeepers, etc take it all in good part and are very kind to them. They are inevitably dressed in tweed skirts, head scarves and lace up shoes, the sort of thing the Queen wears when she is at Balmoral.

Bellamarie, I often see those dolls advertised here so they must be popular. Neither my husband nor I have any interest in the royals, but there are many, many British (or should I say, mostly English) people who adore them as you do, and of course I totally respect your and their opinions. Did you ever read Alan Bennett's little book The Uncommon Reader? I think you would like it - it's about the Queen discovering a mobile library and getting into books. It's charming and funny, but in a nice way. This is how it's described on Amazon:

'The Uncommon Reader is none other than HM the Queen who drifts accidentally into reading when her corgis stray into a mobile library parked at Buckingham Palace. She reads widely ( JR Ackerley, Jean Genet, Ivy Compton Burnett and the classics) and intelligently. Her reading naturally changes her world view and her relationship with people like the oleaginous prime minister and his repellent advisers. She comes to question the prescribed order of the world and loses patience with much that she has to do. In short, her reading is subversive. The consequence is, of course, surprising, mildly shocking and very funny.'

Rosemary


bellamarie

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2017, 09:58:14 AM »
Rosemary, that book sounds like it would be fun to read!  I will have to see if I can find it.  Thank you for suggesting it.  My dolls are a limited edition, a bit costly, offered through Ashton Drake.  I wonder if the ones you see are knock offs, or made by other companies.  I also have a limited edition of Princess Diana's famous blue diamond ring, and the bracelet Duchess Kate has made popular.  Yes, us Americans do have a tendency to admire the Royal family.  I was a huge fan of the Kennedy family when JFK was president, those were called the Camelot years.  Makes me wonder if much like our desire for reading fiction or nonfiction of past castles, royalty, etc., is something we are curious of, and find enjoyable just knowing others live this way.   
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Mkaren557

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2017, 10:11:15 AM »
Wow Rosemary and Bella, every time I cone into the pre discussion I am astounded where our discussion has gone.  The issue of social class will be up for discussion several more times as we read Cranford.  Do we have social class in the US?  Is social class always based on wealth?  Are there any advantages to having social class in a society?  When we played the game, if you came back again, when would you live?  I always said I wanted to come back to the 19th century and be rich.  I am no longer sure of that.

rosemarykaye

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2017, 10:42:36 AM »
Bellamarie - my daughters and I love seeing films of Jackie Kennedy, just as we enjoy all the dresses and cars in Mad Men, but the latter certainly shows how unfulfilling and controlled most women's lives were in the 1960s. I would not want to be a housewife in those days!

 I do think people are fascinated with the glamorous lifestyles of others. A family that seems to be an unending source of interest to people here is the Mitfords - Nancy (writer), Diana (wife of Oswald Mosely), Unity (Hitler's lover), Jessica (writer and Communist activist), Diana (now Duchess of Devonshire) - and I think there were some more that I've forgotten. I did read Jessica's first volume of autobiography 'Hons and Rebels' when I was younger. They had a very aristocratic and strange upbringing - typical of their class, in that they had property in Scotland, a huge estate in England, servants to do everything, but their mother made sure that family life was positively spartan, with handed down clothes, no fancy food, and even no medical attention because she did not believe in it.  Whilst the latter is just odd, the other things are very characteristic of the old money life.  It is sill not done to buy new clothes if the others can be mended, or to look extravagant in any way. Boarding school fees, however, are seen by these families as an essential of life - that's another difference between them and 'new money', as the old money lot still really look down on day schools, even the expensive ones. The firmly believe that boarding school toughens you up,and even if they hated it themselves, they never question but that their own children should go there - it's just 'what one does', and of course it turns their sons in particular into the kind of men we have running our country and our major institutions.

Now I don't think I would be interested in reading about the Mitfords and their ilk - in reality most of the things they did were only acts of rebellion in so much as they did what they wanted with a huge cushion of wealth behind them. They were (apart from Jessica & possibly Nancy) all horribly friendly with the Nazi party and the parents even had Hitler to tea. Nancy was quite a good writer, and I enjoyed her novels In Pursuit of Love and Love in a Cold Climate (which were thinly veiled descriptions of her childhood and youth) but I'm not too sure what the others actually achieved. I admire people who did things without Daddy's money more.

Karen - I don't think social class is based on wealth here. I know some extremely posh people who have very little - the difference is that they grew up in the great houses of old, their parents were aristocrats or at the very least members of certain professions (eg army officers) and a sense of entitlement and assertiveness was bred into them from day one. There are some immensely wealthy people in the UK who would never be thought of as upper class in a million years - people like the Beckhams or Richard Branson. Branson actually came from a fairly affluent family, but he'll never be posh. Meanwhile 'working class' does not mean 'person who is working' at all here. It is questionable whether the working class actually exists any more in this country - not in the sense that my grandparents were working class anyway. Then it would have signified blue collar workers, living in rented accommodation, being paid in cash once a week, many of the men probably spending their spare time (and money) in the pub or at the dog track, the women having endless babies (no contraception) and spending their time doing laundry by hand, raising children (who spent most of their time in the street) and trying to make ends meet, always terrified of not having enough money to pay the rent.

I would only like to come back now. I don't think women have had a good time of it in any period of history. Being rich would certainly have made things a bit better, but you've only got to see Vera Drake to know that even rich girls were at the mercy of men, had had few rights and no means to take control over their own bodies until at least the 1960s-70s.

Rosemary

nlhome

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2017, 05:33:30 PM »
I am glad to read that the Introduction is not necessary, as I was feeling guilty that I started right in reading the book and skipped the Introduction. I'll check in with that later.

One of the books I bought this year for gifts at Christmas was "Unmentionable: the Victorian lady's guide to sex, marriage and manners." I gave it to my daughter and suggested she might share it with her sisters-in-law. She said it was definitely a fun read. I suspect  "How to be a Victorian" would be more educational and broad. I ordered it from our library.

JoanK

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2017, 05:52:03 PM »
KAREN: right, the American equivalent of "working class" is "blue collar." most of us would be considered "middle class."

ROSEMARY: " I don't think social class is based on wealth here. I know some extremely posh people who have very little - the difference is that they grew up in the great houses of old, their parents were aristocrats or at the very least members of certain professions (eg army officers) and a sense of entitlement and assertiveness was bred into them from day one."

this is exactly what I was trying to explain. Originally, class was based on land. In the middle ages, those who owned the land had the wealth and power: everyone else worked for them. Along with their wealth and power, the landowners developed the life style we've all seen in "Downton Abbey."

the Victorian era was the height of the Industrial Revolution, one of the largest changes in human history. growing food, in industrializing countries was no longer so difficult and problematic that it absorbed most of human attention, and the source of power shifted from those who controlled land (the food supply) to the manufacturers and traders who were supplying other goods. The distrust of the landholding aristocracy for industrialists and those "in trade" was more than just the distrust of old money for new money, which exists everywhere. Manufacture and trade were threatening everything their lives were based on. The wealth and power were slipping away: leaving only life style as a basis of their superiority.

This takes centuries. it was beautifully portrayed in "Downton Abbey" Lord Grantham first sees the money to support this lifestyle slipping away. Near the end, there's an incident where the villagers follow his butler's advice instead of his on a village matter and he realizes his power and authority are gone, too. Only life style is left, and many lords have lost that. To keep it, he must enter the despised world of trade.

The little old ladies ROSEMARY mentioned are the poor gentry I talked about earlier: daughter of Aristocrats or their descendants who failed to "marry well."  From the Cranford TV series, I think we are going to meet their great grandmothers in this book.

Mkaren557

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2017, 06:30:08 PM »
Welcome to the discussion, nlhome.  No guilt allowed in this book club.  In fact, I will mention this again when the actual discussion starts on Wednesday but because of the episodic set up of this book, it is possible to pick up the discussion and the reading without getting too lost. 
    I think we had a great discussion today Bella, Rosemary, and Joan.  I am learning so much from all of you.  It is going tone so much fun to put names and faces on the general issues we have touched upon in pre-discussion.  One of the big issues for the Victorians basically revolves around what is the proper role for women?  The referred to this as the "woman question."   We will clearly be discussing this much more.
    I got the How to be a Victorian book, Joan, I am just loving it.  It covers the little things that we don't ofter think of like the issue of body odor.  Deodorant (de odor, I just made the connection) didn't make an appearance until the 20th century.  With that thought, have a nice evening.