CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell

[bellamarie]

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We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

January Book Club Online

Cranford

by Elizabeth Gaskell

Published in 1853, Cranford is the story of a town that is "in the possession of the Amazons." Some delightful older women are battling to preserve the way of life and the social structure in Cranford in the face of the "progress" brought by the Industrial Revolution.  Join us we read this autobiographical novel and get to know the ladies of Cranford.

Discussion Schedule

Based on the episodes as they were published in Household Words.
(Depending how comfortable we are with the rate of reading and discussion, we can be flexible with the dates.)

• January 2-11. Pre-discussion of the Victorian period, the author, and any questions you may have about the discussion process.
• January 11- 15 Episode 1 Our Society at Cranford - Chapters 1-2
• January 16-19  Episode 2 A Love Affair at Cranford - Chapters 3-4
• January 20-23  Episode 3 Memory at Cranford - Chapters 5-6
• January 24-27  Episode 4 Visiting at Cranford - Chapters 7-8
• January 28-31  Episode 5 The Great Cranford Panic - Chapters 9-11
• February 1-4    Episode 6 Stopped Payment at Cranford - Chapters 12-13
• February 5-9    Episode 7 Friends in Need at Cranford - Chapter 14
• February 10-13 Episode 8 A Happy Return to Cranford - Chapters 15-16
• February 14      Final Thoughts. Happy Valentines Day

Some Topics to Focus on As You Read

• The structure of society
• The place of women in society
• The narrator
• The men in Cranford
• Relationships among women
• Changes that come to Cranford and attitudes about those changes

Relevant Links

• Cranford Gutenberg online for free.
• Victorian Web  This amazing link is for all things Victorian,  begun in 1987 with new information added each year.

Discussion Leader: mkaren557

Barb and Karen you made me remember a conservation I had recently with my younger sister who was telling me about how my brother in law (married to our older sister) has been going to a goodwill store buying his clothes.  Now what makes this so newsworthy for her to be telling me this is his wife our sister is so high society she has to name drop the high end store she buys all her clothes at.  We know for a fact they are rolling in money, have no loans, paid cash for the most expensive cars and had their house paid off before either of them retired and was banking his entire income years before retirement.  She and I got the biggest laugh out of the expression on our sister's face when he so boldly announced he is buying his clothes at a goodwill store!  Oh the irony in this.  She has been such a snob and here he is humiliateing her in front of those she has bragged to for years.  I think maybe I can see why Cranford has kept the men away. 

Jonathon, you reminded me I wanted to Google Pickwick to see just what those were.  Another bit of Gakell's irony in her writing, especially after such a fuss and argument he and Miss Jenkyns had over the authors.

In answer to your trivia question I will guess the age of the animal.  Ooops just saw Frybabe and I were posting at the same time!

[bellamarie]

Now I know Gaskell and Dickens had to be very good friends or he would not have allowed her to use his papers as the reason for argument and the death of Captain Brown!  Do you suppose they got a good laugh of this?


The Posthumous Papers of the Pickwick Club (also known as The Pickwick Papers) was Charles Dickens' first novel. ... Dickens (still writing under the pseudonym of Boz) increasingly took over the unsuccessful monthly publication after the original illustrator Robert Seymour had committed suicide.
The Pickwick Papers - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pickwick_Papers

[Mkaren557]

Dickens loved the stories Mrs. Gaskell wrote.  He read, "The Last Generation in England" and immediately asked her to write for his new magazine, Household Words.  He told her to tell an many stories as she could write.  So she wrote Cranford in 8 installments.  Apparently the road was not always smooth for the relationship among the two authors, but he always admired her writing.  I know she stopped writing for him, but after the publication of Cranford as a novel in 1853, her career took off.  I tried to find the quote but Dickens referred to her in criticism as the little lady who wrote in miniature.

[BarbStAubrey]

I think the difference today is the young and many here in my community that is a community of professionals, where we have a Goodwill Boutique so that like the young no one any longer sees shopping at the Goodwill an embarrassment, a disgrace, a step down or a sign of poverty but rather, simply buying good quality that is an item we would pass along but have no family to pass it on to, which is in line with the idea of of swapping that is big, along with farmers markets and other ways of no longer buying cheap available at a big box store and then filling the dump with all this cheaply made goods that quickly look shabby -  I'm thinking many of us are caught in an opinion of shopping at Goodwill and the Salvation Army that is no longer relevant.

Funny to me is how today we are admiring authors whose stories were serialized in magazines and how we think so highly of Dickens - When I was a kid in school we did not read Dickens for that reason - I am smiling remembering we were told they were only magazine hacks that had no standing in literature - oh my how times change - and to think the Dickens Christmas Carol is probably the most read and best known Christmas story in the English language.

I've been thinking on the narrator's tone since you mentioned it Karen and wonder - that same tone was used by Anthony Trollope in the Barchester Chronicles describing conversations with Obadiah Slope and the Bishop's wife Olivia Proudie and Archdeacon Grantly but not for Septimus or his daughter, or even Mrs. Grantly who is his other daughter. It was as if suggesting by using wit, a pompous self-important view of the world was less valued. The technique appears to have started with the play The Way of the World and even Dickens uses the technique. I am remembering the dance master father figure in Bleak House. This literary practice morphed into a comedy of manners featured in plays written by Oscar Wilde and Noël Coward - this put down of the folks who were steeped in this unwritten law of proper etiquette, elevating its importance all seem to be folks without power of position - we often read in these stories of how down to earth those with the real power are in comparison, until we get to Wilde who simply had fun with the incongruity of it all.

I'm wondering if it is/was a put down by authors for the social game played by the powerless which is suggesting, 'know your place and stick to it' or else you look a fool and if you do not know you look a fool we shall be sure to caricaturist you as a fool. We do not see this played out in American literature. So I am wondering if we are actually witnessing the prejudice within the culture to place, rank, social position, levels of acceptability much as someone's accent could be place where they lived or what school they attended so that various treatment was the 'way' no different than the treatment in the US before civil rights which was based on race rather than social class...

Unfortunately for any self-respect these ladies needed some mannerisms to elevate themselves out of the pity-me mold and for that I think they deserve a round of applause rather than derided even if ever so gently. 

[ginny]

What a fascinating discussion you have going here. I can't resist saying that we have Travellers in the US, now, in South Carolina, RosemaryKaye.  I didn't know what they were, and never heard of that TV program, but they live in houses a long way from any kind of caravan and are very reclusive.

[Mkaren557]

It's funny,Barb, I see the tone as very loving of these ladies and their quirky ways. Since the narrator seems to be "from away" as we say in Maine, she is observing the curious ways in Cranford and not being critical.  I can see her stifiling her laughter and trying not to smile.  I do feel a bit of superiority in the narrator, but I don't think its based on social class but the urban eye looking at the country folk. 

[Mkaren557]

What is it about Captain Brown that causes the ladies to include him?  Do you think he intentionally defies the societal conventions? Keeping track of the time is not always easy in the novel?  Any conjectures about the years involved in the first two chapters? 

[bellamarie]

I have NO idea how my prior 2718 post got so chopped up.  Is that because it began a new page?  I know I was in a hurry and did not proof read or spell check meaning "conversation" not conservation, but the line text is all askew.

I like the narrator, I don't find her critical or snobbish.  She is observant and trying as best as she can to show us the personalities of each of the characters including a splash of humor.  I think the Captain in such an integral character in the first two chapters to show us how the ladies interact when a man is actually around.  Sad to say, he isn't around for too long to the demise of him attempting to save a child's life, he loses his own.  This really did make me tear up when I read this.  I had begun to like the Captain's presence, as did the ladies of Cranford.  Like I mentioned above, less is more.  When you don't have as many men or almost none, then the one you do have seems to draw more attention.  He seemed such a likable man.  I like how he and Miss Jenkyns challenged each other on their choice of literary authors.   

[rosemarykaye]

Maybe the ladies include Captain Brown because he simply doesn't notice their attempts to exclude him? He just marches in with both feet and carries on as normal. I don't think he does it deliberately - he's just one of those rare people who are really straightforward and good, and can't imagine that everyone else wouldn't be.

Or maybe he's just a little bit different from the men the ladies have met in the past - he keeps on doing them good turns, which they soon come to appreciate (eg unblocking the chimney) - how many men are as useful as that?

I don't find the narrator snobbish, I just feel she's a bit too clever sometimes. I get the impression that she likes all the ladies, but she does feel a bit intellectually superior to many of them.

I presume your Goodwill shops are our charity shops?  We have absolutely loads of them in Edinburgh - they even produce a charity shop map - and they are extremely popular. I love them, and like everyone I have my favourites. It's not just a question of saving money (I still buy my underwear in a 'proper' shop!) - I like to find slightly quirky things that are 'different'. My younger daughter buys almost all her clothes from them. I also like the idea that my money is going to a good cause. It's certainly true that attitudes have changed - when I was growing up there was one rather shabby charity shop in our town and I remember my mother (who was the very opposite of affluent) being horrified when she found out I'd been in it. Now she's as much a fan of charity shops as I am, especially for their books. I know that authors get a bit cross about this, as they don't get any royalties when their books are sold on in this way - but if I discover an author I like through a £1 charity shop find, I will often buy some more of his or her work from a shop or online, so they do benefit in the end.

I have to say though - and please don't shoot me down in flames for this - that I think charity shop shopping is largely the domain of the middle classes (at least in Edinburgh). They do not feel any shame or stigma in buying their clothes in this way, because they could well afford to go and buy them from Marks & Spencer if they wanted to. People who are really struggling would, I think, want to feel that they could buy new stuff. It's the same thing with the 'gypsy weddings' I was mentioning earlier - these exorbitantly expensive wedding dresses are part of the travellers' culture, and a sign that they can afford what they see as the best. These girls become the property of their husbands on their wedding day, and are condemned to a life of housework and having babies; the society they live in is very patriarchal and the women have few rights. Being the star on their wedding day is the one thing they have.

Anyway, sorry - this is massively off the point!  Barb, how amazing that you were not allowed to read Dickens at school - we were force fed him, and as result I didn't read any of his novels until I had children of my own. And none of my children has read him, though they did enjoy the TV series of Bleak House and the TV adaptation of Great Expectations, with the incomparable Gillian Anderson as Lady Dedlock in the former and Miss Havisham in the latter. The author that was off limits to us were Enid Blyton - hardly the same as Dickens, but I still think banning authors is wrong and counterproductive.

Rosemary

[rosemarykaye]

Ginny - how interesting to hear about your South Carolina travellers. Are they the same as ours, I wonder?

Ours are fiercely proud of their heritage - I am not too sure about it all, but I think some trace their origins to Eastern Europe (hence the term 'Romany') and many to Ireland.  In the past they would have travelled round the country, arriving at certain places at the same time each year either to run fairs or to take part in pony race events - there is still a big meeting for that in Appleby in Cumbria every year. It is, however, increasingly difficult for them to maintain this way of life, as they are usually turfed off any site that they stop at within a few days. (It is only fair to say that the local councils who move them on are sometimes left with a huge amount of detritus to clear up afterwards.) The authorities want them to settle down on special traveller sites that the councils are obliged to provide. Some do want to do this, some don't. The women and girls in these communities are rarely educated and marry very young. It must be very hard if you are a girl who wants to go to school and enter further education or vocational training - not only are the families always moving, there is also a great amount of prejudice against them, and I can imagine that they are bullied and ostracised in many schools if they do attend.

I have been to talks given by some traveller women (part of a Minority and Ethnic Communities project) who are working to improve things for their communities. They were very interesting, motivated, hard-working women, who want also to preserve their culture. In this country they are probably one of the most disadvantaged and excluded groups, and also one of the most private and self-governing. In Scotland at least racism, sexism, homophobia, etc are all unacceptable (which is not, of course, to say they don't go on), but attitudes to travellers are only gradually improving.

Whatever we think of them, it is interesting to me that this very traditional and 'different' group somehow maintains its identity in an increasingly amorphous society. Is that what riles people, I wonder?

Rosemary

[ginny]

  Rosemary, this will explain The Travellers in SC:  I hate to digress from the very fine discussion here. 

http://www.thestate.com/news/local/crime/article96051242.html

[JoanK]

So much  here to comment on!

What a sneaky writer Gaskell is: we'll really have to watch her closely. Of course no one knew who wrote "Pickwick Papers" when it was published. So when Miss Jenkins is reading "A Christmas Carol" at the end and wishing the Captain had read improving books like this instead of "Pickwick Papers", she has no idea it's the same author.

What other little jokes are hidden in there that I didn't catch?

[JoanK]

In looking at the narrator, don't miss the fact that, while she laughs at Miss Jenkins, how proud she is of her when she does the right thing, walking in the funeral. this was made clearer in the TV adaptation: she was defying all the social conventions that were the basis of her life, in order to do what was right. The youngest Captain's daughter was funny in her dress, but devoted her life to her ill sister. The Captain ran roughshod over all the trivia, but he was always there to help and gave his life to save a child.That to me was the message of the story: these people have so many laughable weaknesses and foibles: but at the core, when something important happens, they are GOOD, and will put other's needs ahead of their own.

[JoanK]

Speaking of funerals: we've read two chapters, and there have been two deaths: both under tear wrenching circumstances. Dickens also has many tearful passages about deaths. Of course, death of the young was very common then, almost a daily fact of life (I have letters from my great great grandfather, written in this period: he's on a train passing the cemetery where eight of his ten children were buried). But it made me realize that in Jane Austen, written a few decades earlier, no one dies (except people we don't know, offstage).

Is this just a difference in personal style? Or a difference in the type of literature that was popular in Gaskell's time?

[BarbStAubrey]

I remember as a kid some gypsies came through the area where we lived and we were told not to open the door and not to talk to them in the street - the women all had large flat baskets of flowers, herbs and trinkets that they tried to sell from door to door and the men in singles would walk down the street playing a concertina and had either a begging dog or one had a monkey that would try to get into your house - Mom said the monkey would take whatever was laying around so quickly you could not catch him. Later my grandmother said a family moved into an empty house in her neighborhood and built a fire in the middle of the living room floor that they cooked over and then some time later the house burned to the ground that everyone blamed on the gypsies that magically disappeared.

Rosemary What is the difference between Travellers and a Tinker   - oh yes, it wasn't that we were not allowed - Dickens was simply not included on our extensive reading lists and his books, among a few others were not elevated to be worth our reading time however, the were all in the school library.

Karen looks like we have various viewpoints on the narrator -  - love it when there is more in the pot to consider - yep I do see this similar to the comedy of manners that is the stuff of Anthony Trollope rather than the sophistication of Oscar Wilde. Sorta tongue in cheek, light humor for the class that is reading the book who can appreciate the fun in making a todo over 'manners'.

Had no idea what Manx laws were - surprise - the legal system on the Isle of Man - criminal law codified in the 19th century- here is a link telling us about the law
http://www.acsp.co.im/info-centre/legal-system

And Tinwald Mount is probably Tynwald which another surprise - is the Parliament on the Isle of Man - Tinwald is in New Zealand where as Tynwald is more than likely the reference - here is a link 
http://www.tynwald.org.im/Pages/default.aspx

Don't you just love the analogy - the Isle of Man is a small ancient separate self governing although crown dependent island with its own legal system alternately ruled by Norway, Scotland and now dependent on Britain. The Isle of Man is not part of the United Kingdom having defended itself against Britain during the Napoleonic Wars.  The Isle of Man consists of 17 ancient parishes - I wonder if there are 17 characters in this story to really make the connection - what a fun example of elevating the social mores of this group of women living as if in their own 'island' of 'law' that protects their status and 'ancient' birthright. Love it... how much fun...

Good word Joan - just saw your post - "trivia" - with several authors treating etiquette and the war of manners as trivia which makes me wonder - it really was a way the women could assert their control when they had little to no legal power - that is what I am concerned about, minimizing not only the desire to control but for many woman such as these ladies the need to control - but must not have made myself clear - these authors that heighten the 'trivia' as something the rest of society sees as a frivolous bit of fluff, is really saying those who take the 'trivia' seriously are also a bit of fluff as compared to those who weld real power so that it becomes a comedy of manners -

Sorry folks I know several of you are not seeing this as I am seeing it - that is fine - I am overlaying the struggle for control, that for the ladies of Cranford is their reputation when that is all they have left in their poverty of life maintaining assets.  But then we have always said reading books on Senior Learn we all bring something to the discussion and there is no one outlook or conclusion.

[Mkaren557]

I never thought about the issue of control. I think when people are faced with a possible upheaval in their lives they try to hang on tighter to what they have.  Already we see the railroad has made its way to Cranford.  Cant. Brown with all his vulgar ways(talking about his poverty, not abiding by the rules for calling, reading Dickens, working for the railroad.  The ladies seem to retreat into their traditions and their own ways.  In fact, the last time I read the book I considered whether Gaskell meant the Captain to represent the new ways and Miss Jenkins, keeper of the old ways.  Just a thought.
Barb, I love the analogy to the isle of Man.  That is what we have here: an isolated rural village under attack from the outsiders with their vulgar and city ways.
Bella, I cried over The Captains death, Miss Brown's death and then the revelation at the end of the section that Miss Jenkins will die.


I too had "gypsies"near my town and was threatened with dire punishments if I talked to them.  We were told that they stole everything, even children.  In my old age I have become more enlightened and find the traveling families fascinating. 


Joan, One characteristic Victorian literature is that it becomes more dark as the century goes on. In Dickens and Gaskell lay out for society the lives of people who become victims the urban squalor and poverty that came with "progress". The main characters for the most part are people trying to survive.  Death is everywhere.  Pride and Prejudice with its happy resolution and Gaskell's first novel Mary Barton, barely able to stay alive, show the transition from the romanticism of the early19th century to mid century.

[Mkaren557]

By the way, I love it that we are getting a variety of views in the book club.   I don't know about you, but it prompts me to think and rethink passages.  Just because someone gives an explanation for something or has an opinion that differs from yours doesn't mean that what you want to say is not valid.  Jump right in.

I was in a book club that read The Road by Cormac McCarthy.  There were definitely two factions: some of us loved the book and the rest hated the book.  We disagreed on almost everything, but at the end we realized what a good thorough job of discussion we had done.

[bellamarie]

I see differences of opinions as a box of chocolates, there are many different kinds, yet all are delectable to look!  Some we may not like the taste of, but they come in the box and is just as appealing as the rest!!  Sort of like Forrest Gump's comment, "Mama always said life was like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get."

JoanK., 

Speaking of funerals: we've read two chapters, and there have been two deaths: both under tear wrenching circumstances. But it made me realize that in Jane Austen, written a few decades earlier, no one dies (except people we don't know, offstage).

If my memory serves me well, usually it's the mother who has passed on if one of the characters offstage are dead. 

Karen I also cried at the death of Miss Brown too, especially because she was not able to speak to her father before he died.  I felt it was a wise choice for Miss Jessie not to have her attend their father's funeral.  This scene is heart wrenching:

pg.  26  "Oh, Jessie!  Jessie!  How selfish I have been!  God forgive me for letting you sacrifice yourself for me as you did.  I have so love you__and yet I have thought only of myself, God forgive me!"  "Hush, love, hush!"  said Miss Jessie, sobbing.  "And my father! my dear, dear, father!  i will not complain now, if God will give me strength to be patient.  But, oh, Jessie!  tell my father how I longed and yearned to see him at last, and to ask his forgiveness.  He can never know now how I loved him__oh! if I might but tell him, befire I die;  what a life of sorrow his has been, and I have done so little to cheer him!"  A light came into Miss Jessie's face.  "Would it comfort you, dearest, to think that he does know__would it comfort you, love, to know that his cares, his sorrows__"  Her voice quivered, but she steadied it into calmness,__ "Mary!  he has gone before you to the place where theweary are at rest."  He knows now how you loved him."  A strange look, which was not distress, came over Miss Brown's face.  She did not speak for some time, but then we saw her lips form the words, rather than heard the sound__ "Father, mother, Harry, Aechy!"__then, as if it was a new idea throwing a filmy shadow over her darkening mind__ "But you will be alone__Jessie!"   Miss Jessie had been feeling this all during the silence, I think: for the tears rolled down her cheeks like rain, at these words: and she could not answer at first.  Then she put her hands together tight, and lifted them up, and said,__but not to us__"Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him."  In a few moments more, Miss Brown lay calm and still, never to sorrow or murmur more.

This I found to be excellent writing by Gaskell.  It drew out my emotions making me feel right there with these two sisters who love each other so greatly.     

[BarbStAubrey]

I think we are seeing something similar Karen and simply calling it different words - hanging on tighter is control - not letting go is control - having some control over your life if only tenuous - When change has moved in so you can no longer control life as the ladies of Crawford because of being widowed which means, less money also, the railroad made a difference in who is left in the village and those available to do necessary jobs etc. - since these ladies are powerless to control the economic forces of the times, they control or hang on to what they know - so they have elevated in importance all the minutia of civility.

I remember that as a kid - we may not have had the huge roasts and dinners my parents remembered or even the ever ending pots of Sauerbraten but what we had was always served at the table with the tablecloth and linen napkins even if it was only eggs goldenrod with mom's applesauce for desert. And so mom controlled our environment so that we did not live poor.  She made sure we joined the library before we started school and we had piano lessons from the nuns - she controlled how we looked by sewing our clothes after examining the construction of a high dollar dress - she made sure we had good tasting fresh food from her garden, and she preserved fruits, jams, pickles and veggies - she arranged that we attended free concerts and free days at the museums - then as my Grandmother said, soap is cheap - Grandma controlled dirt - it was banished from us and our home. 

Have not read the funeral scene yet - tomorrow - been savoring this read and so I am slow. Still cannot find a definition for the Brunonian meal - so far I only find a meal of bear meat eaten at Brown university. 

[bellamarie]

Barb, you and I were posting at the same time so avoid my post since you said you have NOT read the funeral scene.

[BarbStAubrey]

        

[Jonathan]

How I envy the people who can make something out of what they read. Hidden meanings and such. I do have some difficulty seeing where the narrator, the author, is going with this tale. Much of it is memories of her younger days in such a community. Certainly it reflects the views of a younger person observing an older generation. In any case it's brilliant.

So much curious detail. And so many interesting comments from all of you. It promises to be a great discussion. In an early post, Rosemary talked about present day " posh people who have very little". How do they do that? (Goodwill?) There's no mention of a Goodwill in Cranford. Well, for a starter, they just deny poverty. And practice 'elegant economy'. And make a success of it.

I, too, have a lot fun shopping at the local Goodwill. It has a wonderful book corner. One recent acquisition, with the title In tearing haste, is a collection of letters between Deborah, Duchess of Devonshire and Patrick Leigh Fermor. Very entertaining and really dashed off.

Just what Miss Jenkyns was trying to do with her writing style in the Dr Johnson style.

'Epistolary writing she and her friends considered as her forte. Many a copy of many a letter have I seen written and corrected on the slate, before she "seized the half-hour just previous to post-time to assure" her friends of this or that; and  Dr Johnson was, as she said, her model in these compositions.'

Certainly not a model for our author.

Welcome, Ginny.  Naturally I thought of you when the talk turned to 'poultry connoisseurs. I've enjoyed your posts about your hens. Did you get some ideas from Pam Mitford? They are a lot fun. Dad loved raising chickens. Once a year he would start with a huge brood of chicks and watching them grow was enchanting. I was struck at times at how cruel they could be to each other.

[Mkaren557]

Hi Jonathan,
     I think we all bring to a book discussion our backgrounds.  I think those creep into each of our readings of the novel.  For Elizabeth Gaskell this was an autobiographical novel.  Her stories came from the village of Knutsford, which is Cranford; the city of Drumble is in reality Manchester and, you are right, her stories are based on her time as a child, living with her aunt.  The other issue is the novel was originally published as a series of episodes in a magazine, so I do not think she had the whole picture of Cranford as a novel as she wrote each episode.
     My love for this novel is the way in which it reflects the time and place in which it was written.  I feel as if I know life in a small village during the Industrial Revolution.  As Charles Dickens said of the French Revolution in Tale of two cities, it was a time much like our times differing only in degree.  I feel as if we could say the same thing about this revolution that we are experiencing, technological.
So unlike the French Revolution there will be no rioting or bloodshed in Cranford, but the attacks on the traditional values of the residents of Cranford are similar.

[bellamarie]

Yes, it seems Gaskell was coming into her own writing and Dickens contracted her for the episodes in his periodical Household Words.  Dickens although he loved Gaskell's writing and thought it was perfect for the changing times, he also was constraining her writing by demanding to title her works and editing them to his own liking which he felt would best suit the readers.  Gaskell and he were both coming into a changing time and with it she was feeling the pressures from Dickens.  She came to realize she could have more liberty in writing novels rather than articles for Dickens.  The relationship became strained with the two of them voicing their opinions to other friends.  I found this article that is very informative, no spoilers for Cranford.  It gives a very good account of the beginning and end of Gaskell and Dickens relationship and mindset during the time of her writing for him and after, which began in 1850 and lasted til 1865.  I especially like how Dickens was attracted to Gaskell's work because she could write to the everyday middle class people drawing on their emotions and the changes happening at the time, which we have already gotten a glimpse of in just these first two chapters.

http://www.gaskell.jp/ronshu/15/15_09-32SHELSTON.pdf 

[CallieOK]

Every time I come into this discussion,  I'm fascinated by the observations and background links being provided for this book.

Since I have absolutely no background in "seeking the deeper meaning" of novels,  it had never occurred to me that "Cranford" was anything more than a pleasant story set in a different time.  I was never exposed to Dickens' work  as an expression of the times in which he lived - and did not enjoy reading what I saw as depressing stories about down-trodden people.

Many thanks to each of you who are helping me see the connection with an historical era in English history.

[rosemarykaye]

Barb - doesn't the 'Brunonian meal' just mean the meal of the Browns? Have I missed something?

Jonathan - so glad you are another charity shop fan!  I am surprised when I go to Paris and there are no charity shops - it seems it is not a French thing. And I don't think you need to worry about other people being better at finding 'hidden meanings' in books - I don't think Mrs Gaskell intended her writing to be 'difficult'. When I was at college and taking the English Tripos, it drove me mad (so much so that I changed subject) when we had to spend weeks dissecting a few lines by one author - it is much more fun here where everyone just says what they think and no-one worries about being 'clever' and outsmarting people. Anything I say about Cranford is completely off the top of my head (as we say here) - I have no prior knowledge, I just make it up!

As as our wonderful facilitator Mkaren says, Mrs Gaskell wrote the chapters as as series of sketches, she had no big plan.

Having been forced through the Industrial Revolution in school history lessons (the only thing that was even more boring was the wretched Agricultural Revolution), it had no real meaning for me - it was just a series of dates and inventions that had to be learned off by heart to pass the evil GCE exams. Reading novels like this makes it come alive; not everyone was running about inventing Stephenson's Rocket or the Spinning Jenny (whatever that was - see what I mean? we just learned it by rote), most middle class ladies were just going about their village business, doing the small things that make up life for most of us. Fascinating.

Bellamarie - I'm afraid I did not cry at Miss Brown's deathbed scene, nor her funeral! I found the former very melodramatic and Dickensian - which is not to say I didn't enjoy it, but I was very far from tears. Must be too much English cynicism - as my daughter says, disparagingly, 'you only ever cry about animals.' 

Rosemary

[bellamarie]

Rosemary, your English cynicism stops you from reacting to emotional moments where everyone knows Italians cry at everything, weddings, funerals, baptisms, Confirmations, births, graduations, our child going off to school, animals, rainbows, etc., etc.  We are an emotional mess!! 

The Goodwill shops in my town are in fairly downtrodden areas that are not exactly safe to venture into so maybe that has something to do with people who live here not going to them.  Now we do have resale shops in safer areas I love to wander around in.  Rosemary, I'm with you, I don't think Gaskell has any hidden agendas, she was a pretty simple writer of human feelings and happenings.  I laughed and cried reading Wives and Daughters. 

[BarbStAubrey]

Thanks Rosemary - maybe so - I just did not see Brown in the word 'Brunonian' but it sure would fit since it is the closest to anything I have found on the web.

As to the unexamined reading -  sounds a bit like some folks who live as Sororities said, "The unexamined life" which he goes on to finish the sentence with "is not worth living" - ah so - some of us are full of curiosity and every observation seems to actually require we ask 'why' and others just get on with it...

As to reading with an eye to the various metaphors, analogies, similes, allusions etc. going beyond the literal can get us to the theme that makes an author and a book a classic - smile - you've got all kinds of readers in this discussion. 

For that matter, the latest philosophical point of view is that there is no such thing as change - We simply alter some of our behavior because, "Propositional" attitudes are wired into us, some before birth and others within the first days and weeks of birth as various parts of our body become operational only with oxygen, like our eyes that are hot wired into our brain - suggesting the human pool has various skills because of our propositional attitudes therefore, we each look for and make sense out of what we see based on our individual programming. Talk about a case for individuality - I've been bowled over reading about this - With that I am ready to start seeing various author's works re-examined in total to find the common underlying thread.

As to Cranford - I love Elizabeth's metaphors and can see telling the story of our lives with tongue and cheek wit - 'Wit' does not translate to mean-tempered - it is defined as an easy aptitude for using words and ideas in a quick and inventive way to create humor. I do not know about you but I sure look at the incongruities in my life with humor and get a kick out of remembering how hard I worked at doing the 'right' thing which is what I think we are relating to in this story.

To just talk about the behavior is like gossip - who did what, when, and did you approve - oh my - not sure a story is intended for us to play judge and jury however, to see the behavior associated with something deeper - then we are exposed to lifestyles beyond our associates and contemporaries which allows us to explore our compassion and understanding for other " propositional attitudes".

Found this quote yesterday and just love it - seems to fit after you shared Karen that Crawford is biographical.

"We do not, after all, simply have experience; we are entrusted with it. We must do something–make something–with it. A story, we sense is the only possible habitation for the burden of our witnessing.” by Patricia Hampl

[JoanK]

CALLIE: that's what I love about these discussions, too. Every one of us sees the book through our own lens, and so differently.

To me it's very exciting to think about the major changes humans have lived through. We talked about another one in our last discussion of an Alaskan myth: the change from being nomads, wandering around, to living in settled communities, where we could store food for the winter.

Now, we're talking about the latest one: the change to an industrial society, and how it felt to be an old person going through that. As old people, we all look at our grandchildren and shake our heads: a different world from ours, with the texting and constant communication. Imagine if we were Seniors living in Gaskell's time: with everything changing very, very fast. Of course they are clinging to what they can control. I hadn't thought of it that way, but it's exactly right.

Are we living through another major transformation? The sociologists think so: they call this "Post-Industrial society." But in the middle of it, we can't yet see what it looks like.

[Mkaren557]

Thank you, CallieinOK for dropping in.  I think Gaskell would be very pleased that you find Cranford a nice story and happy for you to read it as just that.  I think  I read Cranford in a class where I Dickens, George Elliot and Thomas Hardy.  I was so relieved now to be deluged with the filth and the disease of the urban industrial cities that I just read it for the story; in the process I fell in love with it.  Please read on with us.
Barbara, I love this quotation.
"We do not, after all, simply have experience; we are entrusted with it. We must do something–make something–with it. A story, we sense is the only possible habitation for the burden of our witnessing.” by Patricia Hampl.
 I think that is why I wake up some mornings and feel driven to write down my memories.  Thank God for journals.  I keep wrestling with whether I should leave them behind or burn them.
Joan- I remember when computers came to the high school.  What anger and anxiety they produced.  I was still doing my calculations with pencil and paper.  Or when my father tried to call the cable company and came face to face with an answering system.  He swore he would never use the phone again.  I always struggle with the concept that this is progress because the implication is that progress is good.
Our next episode arrives on Monday.  We might want to talk a bit about how the installments affect too novel, if at all.

[CallieOK]

Mkaren,  oh, I intend to stay with you!   I have the e-book on my Tablet and am keeping it nearby when I come into this discussion on my pc so I can look up the things that are mentioned.  That usually leads to an "Aha!" moment.     

Bellamarie,  I'm smiling at your comparison of your Italian emotions with those of Rosemary.   I'm half German and half Scots-Irish so "stoic" could be my middle name!  Right now, one of my good friends is more emotionally distraught over the death of a casual friend she's known fewer than 5 years than I was at the recent death of a close friend I'd known since we were five.

Looking forward to next week's discussion.

[BarbStAubrey]

How absolutely apropos that the difference should be noted over reaction to the death of Miss Brown - love it - just before Gaskell we had Austen as all the rage for readers and she says it in, Sense and Sensibility 

After Willoughby’s ‘rejection’ Elinor, aroused by Marianne’s ‘agitation and sobs’, watches her with silent anxiety’. It is Marianne who suffers when Marianne receives a letter. Elinor, who sees it must come from Willoughby, ‘felt immediately such a sickness at heart as made her hardly able to hold up her head’.  Elinor, entering their room, sees her sister stretched on the bed, ‘almost choked by grief’.  Elinor sits beside her, kisses her hand ‘and then gave way to a burst of tears, which at first was scarcely less violent than Marianne’s. The pain of affliction cannot be confined to the one who first feels it.

For a while Marianne is unable to speak, she puts the letters in to Elinor’s hand ‘and then covering her face with her handkerchief, almost screamed with agony’. Despite her acute sensibility, Marianne’s scream is muffled, because ‘she knew that such grief, shocking as it was to witness, must have its course’, Elinor ‘watched by her till the excess of suffering had somewhat spent itself’. Elinor is aware of the quasi-independent life of feelings and aware, too, that they must be allowed to take their course before they abate.

The same format of the victim, Miss Browns, in this case rather than the emotions of grief it is the emotions expressed by some in pain, crossness because of illness. Rather than the betrayal of a Willoughby and her sister sitting with her, rather though, instead of witnessing tears and screams of grief she is sitting through half a night of scolding and she also, like Elinor, shows the affects by not being her bright and cheerful self - she even scolds herself for breaking into tears which is as her sister, who would scold in reaction to her pain. 

Wondered what was a 'carter' and found this great web site of the English Occupations during the Victorian Era.  http://www.worldthroughthelens.com/family-history/old-occupations.php

[BarbStAubrey]

Here is another tidbit - Giovanni Antonio Galignani (1757–1821) was an Italian newspaper publisher born at Brescia. After living some time in London, he moved to Paris, where in 1800 he started an English library, and in 1808 a monthly publication, the Repertory of English Literature. In 1814 he began to publish the Galignani's Messenger, a daily paper printed in English.

After his death in 1821, (before Cranford was written) his two sons, continued publishing the paper. Under their management it enjoyed a high reputation for its global coverage and emphasis on progressive news. Its stated policy was to promote goodwill between England and France.

[PatH]

My copy of Cranford has footnotes in the back explaining some of the terms.  It defines Amazons briefly, and leg-of-mutton sleeves.  The point of the red silk umbrella is that cotton umbrellas had replaced silk in the 1840s.  And it explains "elegant economy": "The phrase is used by Eliza Acton in her famous Modern Cookery (1845) which has a recipe for 'The Elegant Economist's Pudding'.  It seems to have become a joke for Gaskell."

Eliza Acton's cookbook was a groundbreaking change in how cookbooks were written, giving much more complete instructions and lists of ingredients than previous books, widely used, like The Joy of Cooking for our generation.

[PatH]

My favorite quote from this section is "deciding all questions of literature and politics without troubling themselves with unnecessary reasons or arguments".

[bellamarie]

PatH.,  That is interesting about Eliza's cookbook giving much more complete instructions and list of ingredients.  I've been watching the American Bake Off and it always baffled the bakers on not having the complete recipe to follow.  It was guess work for them.  Nothing more frustrating than having a recipe without complete instructions and ingredients.

[PatH]

Here's a description:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Cookery_for_Private_Families

I read cookbooks as a hobby, so I had heard of Acton from one of Elizabeth David's books (David is an English writer who  loves old cookbooks and writes so evocatively about food you can taste it as you read).  She also has some of the old recipes, and they are often pretty sketchy.

[Mkaren557]

Pat- My favorite quote from this section is "deciding all questions of literature and politics without troubling themselves with unnecessary reasons or arguments".. I was struck by that quote as well.  That is a comment that can be made today.  The prevailing reason to do something is "because I said so."  I wonder what would have happened if someone had asked Miss Jenkins for instance why those rules for calling on someone exist?  Or why should we refrain from talking about our financial situation?  I do know from reading Hard Times by Dickens that there was a division in those who were teaching between teaching by having children memorize what you said and repeating it back, whether there was understanding at all.  (I thing of the way I learned my catechism when I was a little girl.  I remember I asked Sister Imelda what adultery was?  It caused great chaos.). Or whether teachers should teach as Socrates did by continually asking questions and not providing them with responses , but requiring them to think. The student still needed to know facts but they were used to back up what you were saying.  It is Interesting that the Victorians were having the same conflicts that the city fathers of Athens had with Socrates.  Go to any teachers meeting today.  The discussion goes on.

[Jonathan]

The 'tastiest' cookbook, I've heard, was written by Dumas, the great French storyteller. I've been looking for it for years. Do you have it, Pat?

I was mistaken. EG, our author, really did see her Cranford ladies as moral and social Amazons, with their aristocratic  assurance and esprit de corps. Their moral fortitude and gentility. And for good measure she also brings in the tough Spartans for comparison.

Aren't the national characteristics interesting. The Spartan smile. The Italian tears. The stiff English upper lip. One thing is for sure. The tears one can trust.

Another trivia. What does the Cranford aristocrat scorn?

[BarbStAubrey]

There is a nice little history of measuring in "The Science of Good Cooking" by Cook's Illustrated - measuring devices are only a little over 100 years old - their manufacture started in the very late nineteenth century - Cooks used their own cups and spoons for measuring so that if a recipe said 2 cups of flour, the amount of flour would be different in say Martha Washington's kitchen versus Thomas Jefferson's kitchen -

One difference was that cooking was a high level skill, not something you just picked up a book and did - you learned just as a carpenter or a seamstress from a mentor by watching and participating - often the mentor was your mother therefore, you learned early, proportions, the smell, the look, using your hands. Often there was a drinking cup, large and small spoon reserved in each kitchen for baking. Not only was the skill level high but there was not a wide variety of recipes. Cooking was repetitive and depended on local and seasonal produce.

The first cookbook to call for standardized measuring cups and spoons was the 1896 Fannie Farmer Boston Cooking-School Cookbook.  Fannie Farmer believed in science however, what was not taken into consideration is how the cup is filled - the dip and sweep method versus, spooning the dry ingredient into the measuring cup with a large spoon or small scoop which aerates the flour or other ingredient so that the topped and evened cup holds about 20% less. Just as a forceful dip holds more than a gentle dip that may even be shaken as it leaves the sack of flour. That is why a good cookbook gives measurements in weight.