Number Our Days

[Jonathan]

The Book Club Online is the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

They say that growing old is not for sissies. Are they right? When Anthropologist Dr. Barbara Myerhoff received a grant to study aging she decided to do it on subjects in the USA, and let them speak for themselves.

The result is an "often funny, deeply moving narrative of human dignity and courage."

 "One of those rare books that leave the reader somehow changed."-- Bel Kaufman.

Join us! 

Questions to Ponder on  Chapter 7

Epilogue and Afterword:
This last section lives up to the rest of the book, doesn't it? The Epilogue and the Afterword are full of quotable quotes and ideas, you could do a month on them.

Let's start with stories and story telling.

I think it's important to quote her entirely here:

(page 271). Then if it is remembered, if the stories are still told and retold, does everything change?  Is it made bearable? This was suggested in so many ways throughout this work-- in the bobbe myseh, the grandmothers's stories, the hearth tales that are the application of domestic religion,  and with the wonder rabbis "who knew how to bring Torah to light with a story that went into your ordinary life." It is reechoed in the Holocaust survivors' fierce determination to "bear witness," to return from hell and tell what they had seen. It barely mattered if there were someone listening....

If none listen, nevertheless, the tale is told aloud to oneself, to prove that there is existence, to tame the chaos of the world, to give meaning. The tale certifies the act of being and gives sense at the same time.  Perhaps these are the same, because people everywhere have always needed to narrate their lives and worlds, as surely as they have needed food, love, sex, and safety.

It's interesting when you read a book how many other things suddenly seem to refer to the concepts in it. I'm reading All Fall Down, a modern tale of manners if you will and it begins with this quote from Nora Ephron in Heartbreak:

Vera said, "Why do you feel you have to turn everything into a story?"  So I told her why

Because if I tell the story I control the version.
Because if I tell the story I can make you laugh, and I would rather have you laugh than feel sorry for me.'
Because if I tell the story it doesn't hurt as much.
Because if I tell the story I can get on with it.

The word "profound" is really overused today. But I am hard pressed to think of a more profound book that I've read in the last few years. I absolutely loved it, and the experience.

So let me put in some of the concepts this last two bits take up and see what you think of any or all of them.


1. Storytelling: do you agree with its importance? What part did it play in your life today? Have you narrated your own story to anybody, children, grandchildren, etc? Maybe this is a call to action. Have you ever looked at an old photo of somebody in your family and had no idea who it was and wished there were somebody alive you could ask? Maybe this is a wake up call for all of us. What role does story telling play in your own life?

2. Page 269, After a stroke, Olga "crossed over" and moved to a convalescent hospital.

What does this mean?

3. "Hershel was a broken man."  The interaction between elders and young people, whether of their own families, where you would least expect it, or in the public where it is clear that some young people in Venice, CA, were particularly uncaring, came as a surprise to me. Have you ever heard of something like Hershel's situation? Could he have misunderstood attempts to care for him, or is this a common story?

What about the SOS and the behavior of the thugs  on the boardwalk?  Wasn't the elder's own SOS a hoot? What courage that must have taken.

4. On page 274 some of the many effects of the publication of the book and the movie on the Center are talked about, marvelous! It seems the book and movie itself gave the Center and the folks a real shot in the arm, made them celebrities and best of all, brought their children around again. What would have happened, do you think, to the Center if the study and book had never been done?

5. in the Afterword Shmuel has the last word, and Jacob's 5 birthday parties are not needed, but you know what? Jacob tried and he gets points for that, in my opinion, even if it were to celebrate his own birthday.  I still sense a little ambivalence of the author here about Jacob.

In this chapter we have another imaginary conversation with Shmuel, and the author's loyal attempt to give Shmuel some attention, too, in all the happy times and celebrations. I think he deserves that much.

Were you surprised by the reaction of the Center people to the author's including him in the celebrations? Why do you think they felt that way initially?  What WAS it about him?

Then the author,  by quoiting Professor Ronald Sharp, one of the editors who had nominated him for the literary prize, turned everything around:  "his brave dignity, his piercing and wide ranging intellect were refined, not diluted by his tender and deep ranging sense of fragility....I think of Shmuel as one of the greatest characters I have encountered in a lifetime of reading. He stands, for me, with the great heroes."

To  have one of your  own called one of the great heroes is a pretty powerful thing. Here was a man who did not have Jacob's accomplishments but who triumphed in the end. I have to say I teared up a bit over this section and especially about poor Rachel's  horrific accident and her words following Myerhoff's speech above.  In this section the word "Triumph"  which is in the heading really comes to light, and it's BECAUSE Myerhoff wrote this book.

Had she not, none of us would ever have known any of these folks, would we?

 What's your greatest regret, now that the book is over?

But she's not through. What did you think of this?

6. Page 279:

"Young people in our society no longer spend time with old people and consequently grow up thinking that they will never grow old.  They come to think that being old is terrible so they avoid the elderly. Then the old become invisible, and though you may look at them you don't really see them. They come to feel worthless in their own eyes, and feel their lives have no meaning since no one cares for them.  What a pity we can't be drawn closer together and learn what we have to give each other."

Is this a true statement?  As there will be more elders in 2020 than  young people, and as more and more facilities and venues which cater to elders continue to develop, do you see this gap widening?  Is there a solution?

7. Did you notice, on  page 295, there is a footnote on the Afterword: In Jewish thought, death is irrevocable, and human life runs an inexorably linear course. But through divine mercy an individual or a community may return to a time in the past.  "Sins can be absolved by God, and man can be reinstated in his unfallen state. On a collective level, God can turn back the wheels of time, erase the present era, and initiate the rebirth of the ideal era if biblical history.  These two notions of time are reconciled by Yom Kippur."   This is Schlomo Deshen's interpretation, "The Kol Nidre Enigma: An Anthropological View of the Day of Atonement in Ethnology, April 21, 1979."

Have you ever heard of this theory? What branch of Judaism is it? Is it thought today?

8. And finally, whose story in these two last summations stood out the most for you?

9. What will you take away from this book?


What do YOU think?


 

This gets more interesting all the time.Thanks to the speculations and researches of all of you. I'm bookmarking all the links that I can't seem to get now, but I'll get some help from either of my granddaughters. What a great help they are in these matters. And that is really a good example of a point the author makes near the end of Chapter 7, when she compares the success, or lack of it, that men and women have in their dealing with old age.

'the old women had the deck stacked in their favor.'

'It seemed that the men had got short shrift.' p266

We get a ready explanation in the next paragraph: All their lives women, as wives and mothers, have been dealing with contingencies. So their successful old age is well deserved.

The author certainly had a wonderful time writing this book. It was a discovery of herself in many ways. And now she can't let go. First we get an Epilogue and then an Afterword. And Shmuel was the father she never had. How very interesting. He's never given a chance to speak for himself. Good question, Ginny. Why was he so disliked at the Center? But Rebekah loved him. She shared that secret with the author. That was all that mattered.

Chapter 7 left me feeling melancholy. Why couldn't she just be an anthropologist? Not a wannabe Picasso.

[hongfan]

How do YOU feel now that you have read this book? Do you feel changed in some way?  What way?

Changes happened to me:
1. Three audio books on Jewish history including a 63 hours Tanakh by The Jewish Publication Society (JPS) which I am listening and enjoying these days. I have listened to excellent lectures before on Hebrew Bible (the Great Courses), but now I want to listen to the text itself. That is because of this book. I want to learn more.

2). The Joys of Yiddish on my desk which I used as a dictionary when I saw Yiddish words in our book. It's a really fun book, with great humors, a lot of jokes and also useful footnotes all over the place, for instance, it says in US, about 40% of Jewish population is synagogue affiliated and about the same percentage reports lighting Sabbath candles at home on Friday evenings, at least some of the time. This book is really a treasure, I really love it. I want to thank JoanK (if I remember right?) for recommending this book and Jonathan's enthusiasm on Yiddish!

3). The most memorable quote from the book, to me, is from Heschel:

"So when the pain comes, I am patient. I stand before it, I call the pain out."

I think this is applicable to anything that we want to overcome - fear, doubt, temptation. And if I call it out, then it is no longer part of me, then I can confront it, work on it, and walk away from it! This is a new approach to me and I see the power in it.

4). And I am convinced I will learn Hebrew one day!

[ginny]

Thank you for that link, Bellamarie. I am so sorry you lost your father so early. That's hard on a child. That's one thing about aging, all the loss one sees and endures.

I thought this was perceptive:


Maybe, she just felt she owed it to Shmuel  since she never got a chance to say good-bye to him before he died. 

Yes, and it's a shame she did not video him, apparently he was a very powerful personality.  I think he is the most memorable character in the book, for me, and it MAY not be entirely to her presentation, some of the things he says in the book are very memorable.

Who do YOU all think is the Take Away Most Memorable Character? I am torn between him and Basha, but if I HAVE to pick one, I guess he's the one.  But what about you all?


Jonathan:
Chapter 7 left me feeling melancholy. Why couldn't she just be an anthropologist? Not a wannabe Picasso.

 What do you mean by wannabe Picasso? hahaha  Yes Chapter 7 is a downer. I'm glad she ended with the Epilogue and Afterword, showing the Triumph in the title (or is there another triumph we need to acknowledge, after all the subtitle is the Triumph of Continuity and Culture?)..She showed the joy of celebration and the  Center getting SO many new members, and the members becoming celebrities. Such a shame so many died and could not participate and what of poor Rachel?

Hongfan, loved your "Take Aways" from the book, especially this one:

 3). The most memorable quote from the book, to me, is from Heschel:

"So when the pain comes, I am patient. I stand before it, I call the pain out."

I think this is applicable to anything that we want to overcome - fear, doubt, temptation. And if I call it out, then it is no longer part of me, then I can confront it, work on it, and walk away from it! This is a new approach to me and I see the power in it.

I had not thought about asking for The Most Memorable Quote and I love it.


Have any of you read "Sapiens: A Brief History of Human Kind" by Yuval Noah Harari?  

No, but I've heard so much about it. I am so impressed by Bill Gates's reading habits it makes me want to get it immediately, especially since the "storytelling" mentioned in the book.  What a concept, the only thing that separates man from the animals: storytelling.


So I'm thinking we've added a few questions here to our last discussion:

1. What is YOUR  "Take Away" from this book?

2. Who, to you, is the most Memorable Character?

3. What is your favorite quote in the book?

4. Has reading the book changed you in any way? How?

[Jonathan]

 Ginny: 'What a concept, the only thing that separates man from the animals: storytelling.'

And aren't these people the supreme storytellers! From epics to parables. Every human experience is grist for the mill. Successful aging is finding and living the narrative in one's life'. I have Myerhoff wondering: 'Am I finding the grand story in these peoples' lives?' It was her reference to Picasso that caught my attention. The difference between looking for something but finding something else. It's not what you look for. It's what you find.  The problem the artist confronts. As well as her references to other writers whose books she was reading: Simone De Beauvoir, Susanne K. Langer, Philippe Aries. She was feeling creative.

Hongfan: 'And I am convinced I will learn Hebrew one day!,'

Good for you! You will find it the gateway to a lot of stories and a lot of wisdom. What fun it was to learn the alphabet and read from right to left. How surprised I was one day to pick up a book and automatically  look for the beginning at the back of the book.

It has been so much fun having you participate in the discussion. I must read something about China. I have a few things in the house. I've chosen and have already begun reading one and I find myself wondering if the subject of the book might be an anscestor: God's Chinese Son: The Taiping Heavenly Kingdom of Hong Xiuquan He was convinced he was the younger brother of Jesus Christ, God's  Chinese son. He certainly was the child of American missionary activities in China in the 19th century. The author, Jonathan D. Spence, has written many things about China.

[BarbStAubrey]

OK I struggled and struggled with the idea of our sharing our stories as in story telling - yes, I remember fondly hearing the stories from my parents and grandmother of what it was like when... I loved it and saw the spunk and pride and hard times and nurturing and all the experiences - saw my grandmother acting annoyed by some events and my mother with a twinkle in her eye sharing when and how she was mischievous and how 'fun' was shared, that where I could not laugh along I could smile knowing they had a great time and imagined the sounds of laughter.

Far different when I have shared some of my stories - my son is quiet and interested but not wanting more and more - he smiles but does not put himself in the scene - and my daughter and her boys immediately put themselves in the story BUT with their concept of what really is happening and they react as if measuring by the standards of today - it is as if the story changes right in front of me... the result I have not wanted to share. After all these are my experiences - this question or suggestion of story telling and its value had me deep dive into this phenomenon.  I think I've got it...

You know how when we read and even some authors say as much that the story is no longer theirs but the readers make it their own - and we do as we take the story and discuss it seeing our own values and experiences mirrored back or not. Well I think that is what happens - there are so many stories available to us today with TV and Youtube and and and that no one is hanging onto our stories - they are adapted to whom ever is hearing them.

That is when I realized my story is my experience - I was hoping those who hear my story could enter my world and hear the sounds and feel the sun or wind or whatever and taste and see what I am remembering - that means those who hear the story have to drop themselves which back before there was so much input we did without a thought - it may even be why the movies of our day had such an impact that today are appetizers to what we experience watching a movie or documentary. It is as if our life story is a benchmark to use as an allegory or metaphor to their own experience. And so, to really hear our stories you have to drop who you are, as if going into meditation and banish stimulation in order to try and enter the world lived those many years ago. What was a major accomplishment then that deserved all the celebration is something a pre-schooler can do today that is taken for granted and so of course the confusion as to why it was such a big deal to remember all these years later.

To be a good enough story teller to take those listening or reading into a world that is no longer with us takes skill that few of us have studied or even imagined we would need that skill - and so it is important I think to decide if passing along our stories is important - because if it is important it takes studying the skills needed to allow the listener access to our experiences.   

[bellamarie]

Has reading the book changed you in any way? How?

I don't necessarily think the book has changed me as a person, but I do think this book has changed my view on some things, especially elder centers.  I have actually taken the time to really get to know about elder care homes for either the assisted living, or individual living, which I had not paid much attention to before reading this book, and discussing it with all of you. I also feel this book has made me realize I want to take more time in telling my story to my grandchildren.  I am very blessed to have two little grandkids who spent so much time with me and my hubby throughout the summer and then sleepovers throughout the school year.  Zak is so inquisitive, he is constantly coming up to me and saying, "Nonnie, tell me another story about when you were little, or about my Dad or Uncle Jeremy or Aunt Julie."  He truly enjoys hearing the stories and wants to know about them.  Oh and just now, out of no where Zak says, "Nonnie, do you remember when I asked you what was the meaning of life and you said you would get back to me?  Well, I am still waiting for you to answer me."  I replied, "Zak it is so interesting that you asked me this question, because we have been discussing reading this book with my book club." He said,  "Yea, I know you have, so what did you decide?"  I said, "Well Zak, it's a difficult question and can have a different meaning to each person.  For me, I think the meaning of life is for me to live my life to please God, to spend time with my family, and to do my best to love and make others happy, because if I can do that, then I know I will be making God happy as well as myself."  He replied,  "Oh trust me Nonnie, you make lots of people happy." I cherish my beautiful grandchildren. 



 

[BarbStAubrey]

I feel the book was a very limited understanding of elders including those at the center - as the author says -"The story of the rituals and lives of... of a culture that seems to give people the strength to face enormous daily problems -- poverty, neglect, loneliness, poor health, inadequate housing and physical danger."

What was missing is what do they discuss that brings them daily to sit and watch the waves at the beach - except for how the sewing machine was the focal point in the apartment of was it Basha or Olga - forget - anyhow that was the only hint we had of enjoyment - what did others do with their hands and with time. Rather, much of the story was presented as their life being filled with problems and the rituals they followed many based in memory - not what brought them enjoyment and satisfaction.

We have no idea what they fixed for their dinner at their home - regardless how poor they came from a childhood of poverty so they probably had ways of eating and cooking that would be the foods of the poor plus the ethnic recipes.

What particularly did the men discuss after their reading - the movie shows well dressed elders enjoying themselves dancing - did they make their clothing or purchase them and how did they go about choosing color, style, fabric - who did their hair. Only one story of having hair professionally done on the way to a care facility - and who was to say if the housing was inadequate - does poverty equate inadequate - what did they do to make their apartment a home - what made them laugh, what did they find funny.

They sent money to Israel but no word how they managed to do that on their income - what did they decide to do without or were they that good at balancing their income.

What did they do before retirement - what skills did they posses that they were still using. I cannot believe their entire daily life was about solving particular problems of age, poverty, health and loneliness.

Were they still lonely at the center or were they still lonely when sitting on the boardwalk - why was the Center located at the boardwalk - if it was so inadequate, I am sure there was better accommodations off the boardwalk that would be less expensive so the location of the Center must have brought something to those who attended.

I also think after seeing the write up on Barbara G. Myerhoff's earlier work with the Huichol Indians that she was looking to further her research for how Symbol, Myth and Ritual fit into the daily choices of those she was interviewing and so, that is the focus of this book and at times I think Barbara only saw or made it fit, how an exchange between those at the Center was an extension of her focus on Symbol, Myth and Ritual, which is only part of life - not the sum total. I just do not think we have a well rounded view of the elderly much less those who lived near and frequented the Center.

AS to my experience seeing my story taking on a new life it reminded me of when Schmuel says to Barbara,

"On this note about God, we finish now," he said. "You have all I can giver you. Take it and do something with it. What it is I don't know. You have to taek it in your own way. How yo will do this with all your ignorance, I cannot think, but maybe somethign comes together and makes sense for you.

[hongfan]

It has been so much fun having you participate in the discussion. I must read something about China.

Thank you Jonathan, YOU recommended this book and I have enjoyed every bit of our discussion and everyone's sharing, I certainly feel my frame has been expanded .

On China, Harvard has a 10 courses series on China in the edX (edx.org), not sure how good it is, I heard they are pretty strong on Eastern Asian research.

Or check out books from Lin Yutang (Lin is his last name). He is a Chinese but with similar background as Pearl Buck - born and raised in a Christian missionary family, grew up in China but received education in the west. He wrote both English and Chinese books but more famous for his English books - My Country My People, The Importance of Living, etc. Pearl Buck wrote the foreword for My Country My People and helped published his books through her husband's publishing company. He was later nominated for Nobel Prize of Literature.

[hongfan]

I also think after seeing the write up on Barbara G. Myerhoff's earlier work with the Huichol Indians that she was looking to further her research for how Symbol, Myth and Ritual fit into the daily choices of those she was interviewing and so, that is the focus of this book.

Barbara, thank you for your comments, I have not read anything regarding her book on Huichol Indians, but now that the dots are connected and makes sense to me - I read the article that her friend and colleague wrote about her, particularly on her last project In Her Own Time. In that film, she basically threw herself in 100% into the healing symbol, myth, rituals offered by the Orthodox Judaism community. So she started with Indians, then zoomed in with her "own kind", and at last turn the focus onto herself, became the observed from the observing. 

A few paragraphs from the article:

"In several scenes connected with healing, Barbara's own life events are the focus that generates her informants' speech and actions and on which she herself offers participant observations. These include Barbara's experience of immersion in a ritual bath (mikveh) for purification; her ritual change of name; her receiving an official Jewish writ of divorce (get) from a rabbinical court; and her phrasing a letter, with help from Reb Beryl Salzman and his wife, to request a miracle from the spiritual leader of the Lubavitcher Hasidim, Reb Menachem Mendel Schneerson."

"After Barbara's diagnosis of cancer, the Hasidic rabbis who had become her friends urged her to obtain a get, an official Jewish divorce. As Barbara narrated in the film, the purpose of the ritual was to get back her neshuma, her soul, from husband. Getting back her soul was something she felt she had not yet done."

"Another scene documented Barbara sitting on one side of a mechitza, the partition that separates women from men in an Orthodox synagogue. She could only sit and peer around the mechitza while her friend and informant, Reb Naftali Estulin, performned a ritual to change her name and thus confuse the Angel of Death. Barbara did not understand Hebrew and so asked one of the male congregants to let her know when the rabbi reached the portion of the service in which her would pronounce her new name. She asked Reb Naftali to choose the name for her. He gave her the name Chana Basha bas Feigi.

Barbara explained to the camera that her new name meant "all good things" as she waited for the rabbi to bestow her life-preserving name in a service from which she was physically separated and linguistically excluded. When the ceremony was completed, Barbara smiled with the dizzy happiness of a child who receives a sweet - or perhaps it was the smile of an outpatient giddy on pain-killing medication."

"I expect to feel better this afternoon," Barbara concluded.

"According to the Bible, every fiftieth year is to be proclaimed as a Jubilee....Barbara Myerhoff died in the seventh month after her illness was diagnosed, in her forty-ninth year. Numerological I take her death to mark, for anthropology and the politics of Jewish identity in America, a completion and renewal."

[so P bubble]

The book did not change me, but it made me more aware of the elderly need to share , to talk of the past. I believe it will make me more patient in the future.

I have heard of those "healing procedures" by some orthodox rabbis and they have their own advertisements of supposedly successful cases they treated. I remain dubious.  It reminds me a little of the rumors of Ramsey'curse!

Barb, I think the author concentrated on the community life in the center and not on the personal life outside it. She would have needed another 5 years for that!

Hebrew is a very difficult language to master.  I am quite fluent talking, but reading and writing is a different matter.  Then I almost feel illiterate.  In the paper I can read the headlines, but to decipher a whole article requires so much effort that I do not try any more. I suppose it is a tremendous mental exercise that one must acquire (easily) when younger.  Good luck Jonathan and Hong.

[ginny]

 I am really enjoying everybody's thoughts here in the end of the discussion.

To be a good enough story teller to take those listening or reading into a world that is no longer with us takes skill that few of us have studied or even imagined we would need that skill - and so it is important I think to decide if passing along our stories is important - because if it is important it takes studying the skills needed to allow the listener access to our experiences

What a good point, Barbara. I'm not a story teller at all and never thought of it, actually. 

This is lovely, Bellamarie:

I don't necessarily think the book has changed me as a person, but I do think this book has changed my view on some things, especially elder centers.  I have actually taken the time to really get to know about elder care homes for either the assisted living, or individual living, which I had not paid much attention to before reading this book, and discussing it with all of you. I also feel this book has made me realize I want to take more time in telling my story to my grandchildren.


What was missing is what do they discuss that brings them daily to sit and watch the waves at the beach - except for how the sewing machine was the focal point in the apartment of was it Basha or Olga - forget - anyhow that was the only hint we had of enjoyment - what did others do with their hands and with time. Rather, much of the story was presented as their life being filled with problems and the rituals they followed many based in memory - not what brought them enjoyment and satisfaction.

I had not considered that, Barbara, and wonder if that should  have been part of it, but then, as Bubble said,

Barb, I think the author concentrated on the community life in the center and not on the personal life outside it. She would have needed another 5 years for that!


Perhaps she broke new ground with this technique? I think perhaps one of  you (I'm sorry I can't recall who) said something of the sort?

Jonathan: Successful aging is finding and living the narrative in one's life'. I have Myerhoff wondering: 'Am I finding the grand story in these peoples' lives?'

That's another great point. I am wondering, after reading  this question what the great story WAS?

What do you think the grand story was in their lives? Maybe this is why she did not dwell so much on their every day outside lives? I don't know.

Hongfan, thank you for the references so Chinese history:

On China, Harvard has a 10 courses series on China in the edX (edx.org), not sure how good it is, I heard they are pretty strong on Eastern Asian research.


And this: I read the article that her friend and colleague wrote about her, particularly on her last project In Her Own Time. In that film, she basically threw herself in 100% into the healing symbol, myth, rituals offered by the Orthodox Judaism community. So she started with Indians, then zoomed in with her "own kind", and at last turn the focus onto herself, became the observed from the observing.

Barbara explained to the camera that her new name meant "all good things" as she waited for the rabbi to bestow her life-preserving name in a service from which she was physically separated and linguistically excluded.


How sad that is, bless her heart. And for that matter ALL those who are martyrs to that dread disease.  Such a shame, but she really accomplished a great deal and I  had never even heard of her before Jonathan happened to mention this book in one of our previous discussions.

You never stop learning, do  you? At any age. Look what we've learned from this book!

[ginny]

 Going back if anybody has anything else they'd like to comment on, on these questions:

1. What is YOUR  "Take Away" from this book?

2. Who, to you, is the most Memorable Character?

3. What is your favorite quote in the book?

4. Has reading the book changed you in any way? How?

I keep thinking of some words from an older discussion we had here once, Coleridge's The Rime of the Ancient Mariner:

He went like one that hath been stunned,
And is of sense forlorn:
A sadder and a wiser man
He rose the morrow morn.

I think that's me (despite the gender) in that I think this book has changed me, a lot.

1. For one thing, it's  forcefully brought home to  me that the clock is definitely ticking. Carpe diem: seize the day, you may not have another. I've made so many jokes about being old so long, it's kind of startling to realize there IS an  inevitable outcome. So I'm now thinking am I doing everything I should be doing? What am I NOT doing? Am I too complacent, too self indulgent?

  Bellamarie, talking about grandchildren, my little grandson has said many many times I am lucky, and  he can't wait to get "old," because then he can do whatever he wants and have so much fun. hahahaa

2. The knowledge I have picked up here on gerontology has totally changed a great deal of my perceptions. I can now "see" what others have probably always "seen," the reasons why people act the way they do. I thought seniors were just "Everyman,"  you and I, the same now as always, not "different." But here Myerhoff has shown us the REASONS elders may act the way they do,   things are not the same, (and one might say what a relief that IS),  it's tied into being older.  Now some of the things I have puzzled over throughout the  years online and working with older people suddenly make perfect sense!  Like that old poem, "he only does it to annoy, because he know it teases," I finally see and understand  WHY. You can't have any sympathy, or empathy or anything else for a person you are trying to work with,  unless you understand  (or at least have some smattering of comprehension WHY they do something) (that's my feeling, anyway).

I think this is something each of you have known for a long time, but I,  of course, am always bringing up  the rear in understanding. I just need for somebody to tell me, in a way that makes sense, and she did....Before I did not want to hear  what I thought were "excuses" for behavior I found irritating.  I've got it now.  And I needed it.

So in this one thing, the book has changed me immensely and I hope for the better. (Can't help but help the BP anyway, right?)

I need to know more about gerontology, I'm going to look for more books on explaining how the Senior ticks.

(However, I still miss my green font color.   )

Any last thoughts on anything?

[ginny]

Oh I forgot to say, those of you interested in Yiddish, there's a new movie coming out, called Menashe, which is entirely in Yiddish (I hope with subtitles).  It's a "tender story about faith and fatherhood in a Hasidic  Brooklyn community.  It follows a widower fighting for custody of his son."

(Time Magazine, August 7, 2017)

And in the Wall Street Journal, which you need a  subscription to read (but see below for a better version)  there's a wonderful article on In Minsk, a Trove of Nazi-Looted Books, and the story of one family whose incredible  library in Paris was looted during the Holocaust and the owners killed. Now their granddaughter  thinks the books found (they are inscribed to her grandfather, a noted scholar), should be returned to the family.

I found a similar article here, and it seems a lot better, it has lots of photos, the MAPS! The actual books! It's amazing: http://www.cetusnews.com/life/On-the-Trail-of-Books-Stolen-by-the-Nazis.ByQzSmukvW.html

In Minsk, a Trove of Nazi-Looted Books

[bellamarie]

hongfan, thank you for the excerpts from the article on Myerhoff.  I especially found this very profound:

"After Barbara's diagnosis of cancer, the Hasidic rabbis who had become her friends urged her to obtain a get, an official Jewish divorce. As Barbara narrated in the film, the purpose of the ritual was to get back her neshuma, her soul, from husband. Getting back her soul was something she felt she had not yet done."

Interesting how the Rabbi felt she needed to "get back her neshuma, her soul, from husband"

I do feel there comes a time in our lives where we each individually must get back our soul.  Over our years of growing up, choosing our careers, working our jobs, marrying (if we so choose to), raising our kids and just being active in our everyday lives we do tend to lose a bit of our souls.  Since I have retired I have found myself taking back my soul, the person who I truly am without obstacles, or people's acceptance, opinions or approvals.  ME!  Just ME!  The comfortable person I am, the Christian person who lives faithfully each day, remembering God is present in my life, and my goal is to one day live my eternal life with Him in His Kingdom.  ME, the person who has decided it's okay if I wake up and want to stay in my pjs all day long, and do nothing,  ME, the person who truly wants to help others, love and care for others and be the best example I can be......just being ME!  There is a book I bought and read to my daycare kids at story time called, "I'm Gonna Like Me  Letting Off a Little Self Esteem" by Jamie Lee Curtis, this book always made me think, every person no matter what age you are, needs to not only recognize "Yourself/Soul" but you need to own it, embrace and love it!!

https://www.amazon.com/Im-Gonna-Like-Me-Self-Esteem/dp/0060287616

My heart has been very heavy these past few days learning of two teen suicides in our community.  One teen went to a Catholic youth group with my fifteen year old grandson Xavier.  The teen boy Luke, was found hung in his grandfather's basement.  There is an investigation into his social media apps, trying to see if he had been involved in any apps such as Blue Whale, that entices young teens to commit suicide.  The other young teen Luken, attends the same Catholic high school as my granddaughter Avery.  In the obit the parents said,

"Words cannot express the pain and heartache brought on by one impulsive decision as a result of cyber bullying. Luken will be remembered as the amazing, gentle, soul he was and not by how he left us."

Our youth are very troubled today, they have parents working endless hours, they are expected to play in so many sports, get good grades in school, be socially acceptable and I feel the pressures are overwhelming.  As parents, grandparents, teachers, coaches etc., all adults in children's lives we MUST lead by examples on how we treat each other, and how we are able to let others know they are valued.  The Center people could be bullies at times, insensitive to each others feelings, and had a tendency to make others feel left out for what ever reason they felt such as how they treated Shmuel.  As a society we have to do better.  We had presidential candidates in all parties being rude, disrespectful, out right lying, and the media was gulping it up and spitting it out as fast as they could to gain ratings.  As we got down to the two candidates which I feel neither was acceptable to be in the Oval office it got even worse.  Again, the media on television, radio, newspapers, magazines even cartoons and late night shows jumped on the trash em at all cost bandwagon and displayed as bad behavior as they were accusing the candidates of.  Our young children see this, hear this, and then engage in this type of behavior because why not, all the adults are.  The world has become a WWF wrestling ring and that leaves our youth not feeling there is no other recourse in how to handle disagreements and differences of opinions, race, ethnicity, religions etc.  I strongly believe bullying is a learned behavior.  We are not born to bully, we are taught it as we grow up.  I can only pray I, myself, personally can be a part of the solution, rather than a part of the problem.  I want to protect my precious grandkids from this type of hurt.  My grandson Zak is on the Autism spectrum, he switched from a public school to a Catholic private school due to the fact his teachers, principal and classmates could not seem to understand and accept him with his differences even though his I.Q. was beyond his grade level.  After switching schools, Zak felt strong enough to stand up in front of his class and give an informed talk to his classmates about what its like being on the Autism spectrum.  His classmates came up to him and hugged him, and he has had great friendships so far.  We never know the struggles another person has, that could cause them to seem unlikeable.  If we as an individual can wake up each day striving to be the best person we can be and learn to be more patient, kind, loving and accepting, then we can be that positive light in a person's life, that just may help them see their life is worth living for, regardless of the struggles they are facing.   Please pray for the families of these young teens who they say their good-byes to. 

We can NO longer accept bad behavior, hatred, cruelty and bullying and brush it off as, oh it's just the way Jewish people, Italians, Germans, etc', etc., are.  It is just their nature, they don't mean anything by it.  For generations after generations we have seen and heard this as an acceptable life style.... we need to stop it and say no more.  Break the mold, break the silence, break the accepting it and continuing it.  Our children deserve better.

[bellamarie]

Ginny, 

Bellamarie, talking about grandchildren, my little grandson has said many many times I am lucky, and  he can't wait to get "old," because then he can do whatever he wants and have so much fun. hahahaa

Now that's the impression we want to give to our precious grandkids!!

[hongfan]

Bellamarie, sorry to hear the tragedies happened to your community. Hard for me to imagine how the families are going to deal with it, it must be very very hard. I agree it is not easy to be a kid theses days, sometimes it makes me think actually it might be easier to be an adult.

I remember I read an article before, it said the best protection a patent can give is to make their children feel comfortable to talk to you for anything, to have that communication channel kept open is the best way we can protect them. I think it is a wise advice. If the kid feel a strong and secure support from his or her family, it will, I think, shield the child from external adversities. But I suspect these days the family ties are weakened too.

[Jonathan]

God bless you, Bellamarie. Keep up the good work. You, and so many other caring people do make a difference.

There are so many sobering thoughts in your post. As seniors we tend to think of the youthful years as being the most glorious. And yet, certainly, facing life as a teenager may be tougher for some than facing end-of-life issues as a senior.

I enjoyed your ode to sunrise and sunset. I highly recommend these glorious sights on Cape Cod. Many is the time my wife and I watched the sun come up on the ocean side. We had a cottage a few steps from the beach. But it got breathtaking to watch the sun sink into Cape Cod Bay, at First Encounter Beach, when it coincided with low tide. Then there were countless tidal pools almost to the horizon reflecting the brilliant colors in the sky.

May there be a lovely sunset in all your lives.

[ginny]

It's astounding the pressures now on children and teenagers, isn't it?  And we hear so much about suicide and drugs, and bullying which sometimes takes place on the internet. The internet, like anything else, can be a blessing and a curse. The relative anonymity (or what people think of as anonymity) allows some really trollish behavior. I am so sorry to hear about the deaths of those two teenagers, Bellamarie. In his grandfather's basement, golly, so sorry for everybody concerned.


Sunrises and sunsets, aren't they glorious? We've had some wonderful ones here, the sky turning such a brilliant red, the entire sky, that no camera can capture it. Breathtaking.

Speaking of sunrise and sunset, we've been having  a debate in one of my face to face  classes as to when the "third watch" actually was. Caesar was famous for setting out on the Third Watch but when was that? Before or after dawn? It begins at midnight and goes 4 hours at a time. However the sunrise in Great Britain is quite early, at 5? Or maybe earlier, so when DID he set out? And how about in France?  I'm never up to see. And I found in Sorrento this year that I could not beat the sun UP, no matter how early I got up. I've got tons of photos of the same thing taken at different hours: Vesuvius, some light and a red line of dawn, taken at all hours of the morning. I guess one would have to stay up all night in these places  to get the right times. 

Well we seem to be coming to an end here. How lovely that we end with the Center bustling with new members, and celebrity, too. I've never been to Venice Beach, California. It kind of makes me want to go there and see what it's like, did it you? hahaha

 We'll leave the discussion open till Monday for any last minute thoughts, there's lots to discuss, still,  and the announcement of our next Fall Book Club Selection.

[ginny]

It's astounding the pressures now on children and teenagers, isn't it?  And we hear so much about suicide and drugs, and bullying which sometimes takes place on the internet. The internet, like anything else, can be a blessing and a curse. The relative anonymity (or what people think of as anonymity) allows some really trollish behavior. I am so sorry to hear about the deaths of those two teenagers, Bellamarie. In his grandfather's basement, golly, so sorry for everybody concerned.

Sunrises and sunsets, aren't they glorious? We've had some wonderful ones here, the sky turning such a brilliant red, the entire sky, that no camera can capture it. Breathtaking.

Speaking of sunrise and sunset, we've been having  a debate in one of my face to face  classes as to when the "third watch" actually was. Caesar was famous for setting out on the Third Watch but when was that? It begins at sunset and goes 4 hours at a time till dawn. However the sunrise in Great Britain is quite early, at 5? Or maybe earlier, so when DID he set out? And how about in France?  I'm never up to see. And I found in Sorrento this year that I could not beat the sun UP, no matter how early I got up. I've got tons of photos of the same thing taken at different hours: Vesuvius, some light and a red line of dawn, taken at all hours of the morning. I guess one would have to stay up all night in these places  to get the right times. 

Well we seem to be coming to an end here. How lovely that we end with the Center bustling with new members, and celebrity, too. I've never been to Venice Beach, California. It kind of makes me want to go there and see what it's like, did it you? hahaha

 We'll leave the discussion open till Monday for any last minute thoughts, there's lots to discuss, still,  and the announcement of our next Fall Book Club Selection.

[hongfan]

Have you seen a moon rise?

I was at Santorini, Greece (called Thera in classic time) a few years ago, we had spent a couple of hours watching the beautiful sunset and then we went to dine at a restaurant, all of sudden, someone said, what's this, I turned around and saw a yellowish thing coming up from the water, it was like a big round table and you felt it was so close that it was like in your backyard. I was puzzled for a little while and then we realized that is the MOON! It got up quickly and only a few minutes later (at least I felt that way) it was up in the sky!

I had good pictures on sunrise and sunset, but could never get a good picture on moon. However, that picture imprinted in my mind is absolutely gorgeous!

[BarbStAubrey]

https://www.youtube.com/embed/03rzUoyq9K0?ecver=2

[bellamarie]

Yes, indeed I do think it just might be easier being an adult vs a teen today.  There just is so much more access kids have to each other, drugs, bullying, and drinking.  I would not want to be a parent of a teen today.  Thank you all for your kind words.

Sunrise and sunsets are just so amazing!   I would love for my next home to be positioned so I could see both in a day.  Where I live now in the suburb I have to wait for the sun to come above housetops. 

I have to share an experience I had today, my hubby and I were driving home from the library and saw an Estate Sale sign.  I'm not much of a garage sale/estate shopper but for some reason I just felt like browsing to see if there would be anything of interest.  My hubby is a retired mailman so he knew the elderly couple that lived in this home.  As I browsed room from room glancing at all their things I began imagining what it must have been like for this couple living in this house.  We went into the basement and saw this man worked with wood, he had every kind of tool you could imagine, and just so much wood, you could tell he used for his projects.  I thought, to myself, he must have spent endless hours down here making beautiful wood things.  As I went from bedroom to bedroom I saw this couple had to have been a very religious couple, because they had beautiful religious pictures and statues.  I just felt sad thinking about how we come to the end of our lives, then all our prized possessions become a part of an estate sale, where total strangers purchase for minimal prices.  I did buy a string of LED Christmas lights, and a beautiful stone plaque with a saying on it,  "If tears could build a stairway, and memories a lane, I'd walk right up to Heaven and bring you home again." I will place this  in front of my Mom's rose bush I planted in my backyard this Spring, my sister gave to me from our family yard growing up. 

This book, my friend Marilyn and Sandy moving into elderly care center and apartment, two teen deaths and then this estate sale has me really feeling melancholy.  Update on Sandy, she took our two little grandkids Zak & Zoey with her yesterday to close up her house for the last time having the electricity and water shut off, and locked up the door.  Zak said to me, "Nonnie when we left Nene's house she was crying really hard and said this was the worst day ever."  I told Zak that it's very hard to leave a house you and your husband and family grew up in, and holds so many memories.  My son brought Zak and Zoey over to spend then night and got a phone call from my daughter in law saying her Mom (Sandy) had called her aunt and was saying "Good-bye."  Sandy is not doing well accepting these final phases in her life, but I do think with the love and support, it will get easier for her.  I am certain she has had days, and will continue to have days, of wanting to end it all, and be with her husband.  I pray she never acts on these raw emotions.   

I'm looking forward to going to our parish festival tonight, listening to some music, dancing, eat junk food, I mean who can pass up chili cheese fries, elephant ears, taco in a bag, and just enjoying life in action.  I need some .......... Good ole fun!!!!   

[BarbStAubrey]

That's it isn't it - aging means loss - the losses keep piling up - watching those whom we love experiencing loss and their grief knowing we are helpless to change either the loss or the natural grief, either has us run or freeze or get angry just like any reaction to the difficulties in life, flee - freeze - fight - and so we look for relief - and for many it is probably why they either ignore or make in fun of anything to do with aging - it is not so much not wanting to face impending death that the elderly reminds us of the cycle of life but it is the losses - it is hard enough to experience major loss when you are 30 or 40 but after 60 or 70 the losses are not only visible but unless you have special skills there is no way to acquire additional income that could mitigate some of the losses. And for many of us the loss of our home is a big hunk of our identity.

I think that is why I was more interested in learning more about how those at the Center made a home for themselves in their apartments - the one glimpse of the home where a sewing machine took center stage gave me hope knowing we can still build a life even if all our surroundings have changed and our physical ability is less and our family is busy with their life where they are doing the important work of growing their career, their business that affects so many and gives jobs to their employees and helping their children grow and mature into loving, kind, educated, worthy adults. Knowing that gives us peace of mind but does not take care of our own day to day living and that is what I like to hear or read about that gives me encouragement as well as a role model for my own life.

For me the sadist is seeing how many of our elderly are housed like one big kindergarten only, instead of 3, 4 and 5 year olds it is 70, 80 and 90 year olds.

My one cousin lives now in such a center and here she had our grandmother living downstairs with her mother and she took care of them to their end, she has 6 children and none of them would take her in - sad but to me more than sad - so there is divorce to contend with or your own children going through a difficult time - it has become like a special burden to take care of an aging mother or father - I just get too upset thinking about this lack of responsibility much less lack of compassion for lessening the losses. 

At least in the past the children and grandchildren wanted to bring some of your things to mix in with their own but not even that any more - things we spent time choosing and hours and hours maintaining much less the hours of work to bring in the money to pay for what we chose - a big hunk of our life that is now worthless. 

And so, I prefer stories that uplift and help me make my life today as meaningful as possible so that I focus on what I can do - if I worry about my future I will loose today - So yes, I was very ambivalent reading this book. 

I did not like the gritching on many levels but mostly it only reminded me of all that we can gritch over, which does not build a pleasant day - I did not like the discussion as to how women were expected to behave during religious rituals and ceremonies which made me aware of their secondary place in the scheme of things - I did not like reading the stories that did not include encouraging and heartwarming exchanges - I feel very sad that we do not know how these people brought joy to their life - what their conversations included that brought satisfaction because, day by day I cannot imagine they were so addicted to their poverty, inadequacies, failing health, loneliness, issues of aging that it was the sum total of their conversation and reason for gathering at the Center or sitting out-of-doors overlooking the ocean. 

Yes, like you Bellamarie I too want 'good ole fun!' and I suspect so did these folks at the Center and that is what I think was missing in the book.

[hongfan]

I have a close friend (my college buddy) who is the only child of her parents. When she came to US and invited her parents to live with her, they did come for a few months but they still liked Shanghai better, so they went back. My friend traveled 1-2 times every year back to Shanghai to stay with her parents, but she has a full time job and a little kid, so she couldn't stay for too long each time. A few years ago her mom suddenly passed away which left her father completely at loss, because her father was physically weak and had been taken care by her mother (both of them were math professors and her father was a book worm). Her father didn't know how to run daily things, because all those were taken care of by his wife, and he still didn't want to move to US. So eventually my friend find a elderly care center for her father, but she came back to US with a heavy heart, she was so worried about her father. Then after a few weeks, she happily reported that her father actually became much more "alive" since moved to the care center, he had people he could talk to and he even learn how to do daily chores that he never cared to do before (talk about learn by necessity and human resilience). The only thing she regretted is that she hadn't moved both her parents to the care center years ago, she believed her mom had been exhausted by taking care of her father. But you know in China, the concept is that your parents live with you when they get old, so sending parents to a care center wasn't a comfortable thing to many Chinese adult children even they themselves are too busy to take care of their aging parents. But recently it seems people are starting to see this arrangement in a more favorable light or more practical light, both by the parents themselves and by their adult children - given one child per family, how could two adult children to take care of four aging parents?

In Boston, I have quite many friends who have their parents in 70s and 80s who moved to some type of senior centers and they seem very happy - take English classes at Harvard (we joked they are now Ivy League graduates), join singing groups, celebrating birthdays every month together (whoever has birthday in that month), go to YMCA swimming together, go to Boston Symphony Hall - they are given free tickets or really cheap tickets for big performance such as Lang Lang's piano concert. Some of the younger parents (60s and 70s) also join dancing groups - of course slow dances. Two years ago, I saw a group of women performed a fashion show - with modern music, fancy clothing and that catlike walking style (what the term for it?) We enjoyed so much and only so surprised when the host announced that those women were "seniors", in 50s, 60s and even 70s!

I have some friends now complaining that their parents don't have time (or interest) to visit them any more - they are so busy everyday with their friends and having so much fun! The one thing will for sure to get their parents' attention is the grandchildren - they will come no matter what!

[hongfan]

As we are getting to the end of our discussion, I would like to share with you a poem that has touched my heart deeply. I found it years ago in a book about Soviet psychologist Lev Vygotsky and seemed the poem was written by Vygotsky himself. I think it is also fitting for the themes of the book and our discussion, it is beautiful, and I hope it is uplifting to you as it is to me.

   We still believe in miracles
   for all the lessons and truths
   that life has taught us;
   We know there's beauty that won't pall
   and strength that cannot be exhausted;
   That flowers of a loveliness unearthly
   to earthly withering will not succumb;
   And dewdrops, fallen on them in the morning,
   will not be dried up by the midday sun.
   It's a faith that won't deceive you,
   if you live by it alone from first to last;
   Not everything that flowered once must wilt;
   Not everything that was must pass.

- from The Collected Works of L. S. Vygotsky: Scientific Legacy.

[BarbStAubrey]

Hongfan sounds like there are those who are not as attached to their home or gardening or home centered activities and are happy living in apartments where they have a full social life - I hear of too many horror stories including a neighbor who went into an assistant living situation with three levels of care - the first she was very comfortable on the ground floor where she had a small garden and could keep her dog and then arbitrarily as she approached her mid nineties she was moved to the next level that is not on the ground floor having to give up her dog - her daughter is a district judge and her hands were tied - she does not want to cause any push back for her mother but she knows her mother was not ill and she learned they had a need for more entry level space and had just lost several mid-level occupants - I would bet after her mother passes there will be legal ramifications.

As I shared earlier my cousin, who loved to sew does not have any of what she loved to do each day that allowed her to feel a part of her family by making all the Pjs for her grands and sewing for her church refugee program - and so if you are social and can enjoy attending events away from a retirement community it sounds like a good choice where as, those who like the home-arts give up a great deal of their joy and identity by moving into these one room apartments that is the floor-plan of many retirement centers.

My daughter-in-law's Mother just went into an assistant living situation in San Antonio however, her two sisters each live a little over an hour away in opposite directions. They each take turns picking her up on Friday night and bringing her back Monday around noon where as my daughter-in-law lives 4 hours away so she visits for a week each month during the summer and on some long weekends during the school year (she is a teacher) The center has accommodations for visiting family. Her Mom likes UT football and baseball so her son comes up from the ranch south of Uvalde and takes her to several games when the teams are playing in Austin. 

This is a similar pattern for an old friend and only friend my age left, who lives in an assistant living situation here in Austin. Two of her daughters live in the area and take turns picking her up for long weekends and her son and his wife, live over in Collage Station. They come up every other month and while his wife visits her family here, together he and my friend drive up to Waco to visit for the day her other daughter. Where as my cousin's children, all but two, live hundreds of miles away and the two who live close-by did not want the burden - that is the kind of warehousing I see too often.

It appears each of us see the issue of housing and aging differently and as long as elders are given some choices and not stripped of more, that represents more losses then, whatever will work, will work.

In our story - I am terrible at remembering names - I think Olga - when she decided to leave her apartment it was her decision and already she was loosing her eyesight, so the activities she enjoyed were already a loss to her.

Interesting - my daughter recently learned that research found Alzheimer patients, after most of the memory is gone still retain body memory which is the last to leave them - so whatever folks do regularly with their hands or other parts of their body almost obsessively they keep doing. Which explained Gary's mother, who at home never sat down, always cleaning and dusting - living as they did in Missouri next to Kansas there was plenty of daily sand and dust on all the furniture and so, when she went to a nursing home all she did, well past her recognizing any family member, was clean as if polishing the furniture using whatever towel she could find - guys who play checkers continue to play with no idea what the moves are and those who played the piano everyday continue to play and those who take a daily walk will take a walk morning, noon and night.   

I like to knit and I'm thinking I better get into a daily habit of knitting so that my hands will stay useful - I'd hate to be a vegetable. 

[bellamarie]

Barb and hongfan what insightful posts and lovely poem.

I agree, I too would have liked to learn more about the Center people's day to day home life.  I suppose had we got a glimpse into their personal homes we would have gotten much more emotionally attached to them.  It did make a difference reading the part where Myerhoff is at Shmuel's house, and Basha deciding her sewing machine will come with her.  We were able to see the movie of the Center people dancing, laughing having fun, but, Myerhoff did not include that to help the reader see there were fun times too.

I do think they have come a long way with elder care apartment and centers.  I don't see them as the last stop to doom, gloom and death anymore.  I can see elderly people can maintain life events outside the center, and make new friendships inside them.  I just learned from my sister in law there is an elderly center, newly built, in a very nice area in our city, that you pay a small fee, and can go spend the day working out, joining in on activities and even eat breakfast, lunch or dinner there.  Reading this book and sharing all our stories has given me a new outlook on aging.  I am very healthy and active, and have my hubby and family, at this point in my life, but now I have some information and insight for the days to come when I will be challenged. 

Barb how is the soup and apple recipes going?  I too need to pick up my knitting needles and get busy on those Christmas gifts.  I like the socks idea, who doesn't need a nice warm pair of socks to keep their feet warm, especially in our cold winters here in Ohio.

I'm going to miss this discussion, it has been a good one.  I hope we can choose another book soon, to keep us all active.  Jonathan thank you so much for the recommendation of this book, and Ginny, than you so much for deciding on it.  Thank you all who participated in it especially our new friends hongfan from China and Bubble from Israel.  I truly learned so much from your posts.  My Bible study won't know what hit them when we start back up in September!   

One thing I will for sure take away from this book and discussion is......We are never too old to learn new things.  As Shmuel said, we should always keep learning.

[BarbStAubrey]

ha yes, the current fun I am having - not the apple yet, we do not have a good supply of apples in the market but soup - aha - found fresh locally raised chicken and got two legs with thighs attached for the sum total would you believe, 70 cents and did a basic chicken, root vegetable, soup.

Then simply peeled a cucumber, cut and blended it with a 6 oz. container of lemon yogurt. Instead of adding shallots, a farmer up by Georgetown had a pile of very small red onions, they each were maybe an inch and a half in diameter so I used one, with some fresh parsley and have tons of summer savory that I added with about a half a cup of water - blended and let it all sit in the frig over night - had two lunches.

And then last night really did one that was slurping good - that same farmer had nice red potatoes so I cut one, good size into about 1/8 slices, skin and all - started a pot with olive oil, added one of the red onions sliced and about 4 large mushrooms also 1/8th of an inch slices with a cut of celery - I store celery on the stalk in a plastic sack and then cut across the entire stalk into about 1/2 inch pieces once or as many times according to how much I need till I am down to the white root - added some salt, white pepper and again, that summer savory.

After a bit before they were soft added a tbsp of butter followed by more cooking then, about a third of a cup of white wine and let it low cook covered for a few minutes then, only then added the potatoes, wanted them cooked but to hold their shape - cooked all that for a bit, added a package with about a cup of thick barely soup I had in the freezer from last winter. After it cooked and I could stir it all together adding just a tiny bit of allspice powder, maybe an 1/8th of a teaspoon and about the same amount of crushed thyme leaves, adjusted the taste for salt, stirred and added about a cup of water and let it all low bubbly cook for up to about 5 minutes - oh oh oh was that ever good - just finished the left overs for lunch today. 

We have been out of the triple digit temps all week and mid week next week we are expecting some serious rain - I have a whole chicken in the freezer that I hope to do while the parched earth is drinking up all the rain.

I was feeling anxious because I had not learned yet how to take photos with my cell and upload them - thought I would photo into a diary of sorts my soup creations and then I finally just relaxed - I've been cooking and my mother was cooking long before there was this 'thing' to photograph your entire intimate life - just do it - it brings a smile to my face as I remember my mother smiling when she had success with anything she cooked - if no one sees it - so it is not the end of the world - this idea of documenting our lives as a legacy - goodness can you even envision the mountain of information that if we all leave our legacy - you know it may end up lost in the 'cloud' - the beauty now of finding the bits of letters and personal bios from earlier times is there are so few of them where as just facebook alone must contain tons and tons of data - I wonder how far back they keep our postings on our page - need to look into that.

I had been thinking of going to the local hospice and offering to help folks put together a simply book of some of their memories - this book has renewed that idea and to help me do supportive interviews I ordered, The Narrative Journey: An Illustrated Guide to Narrative Therapy Principles by John Stillman who says, the book can be helpful to more than the professional. I liked this that I read in the review:

...the Word Exercises outline questions that are influenced by narrative principles, enriching the reader's experiential understanding of narrative therapy. Narrative principles respect that people can determine what they want in life and keep their positions at the center of interactions. Narrative therapy also allows individuals and communities to explore what is important in their daily lives and relationships. The narrative principles laid out in this guidebook offer entry points to multiple conversations, helping people make decisions that fit with their values, hopes, and dreams.This guidebook is intended for therapists with varying levels of experience with narrative principles and can be used when working with individuals, couples, families, and communities... These discussions focus on actions that help people address problems and support what is important to them.

I'm thinking for some, it may be important that they leave a message of sorts to their family that will help the family either remember some earlier times or introduce them to something that happened when this person was a child - it is not easy to look at someone in their advanced years and see them as the children they were.  So we shall see what we shall see - if the book I ordered helps me further this idea then this book by Myerhoff has served a purpose and I'll be adding to the rings of influence from her pebble thrown. 

[Jonathan]

sholem, everybody

I have the answer. Please, somebody ask me the question. (from the  rules of pilpul)

So many thoughtful posts. Where to begin with a reply. A lovely little poem, Hongfan. Beauty, Strength, Loveliness, and Faith - the miracles of life are still there for those who have eyes to see. At any age.

Please post more information on the Boston area retirement facilities, with Ivy League extension courses and free concerts at the Symphony Hall.

sholem: 1.Peace. 2.Hello. 3.So long, au revoir, goodbye. Why  is sholem used for both "hello" and "good-bye"? Israelis say: "Because we have so many problems that half the time we don't know whether we're coming or going." From The Joys of Yiddish.

I've had the pleasure of viewing the film. Thanks, ever so much for the link, Barbara. What a fun loving crowd. They certainly come alive at their parties. It was smart to keep them anonymous. They certainly vied for attention. What a problem for the anthropologist to give them all equal billing. Thanks, Hongfan, for the biographical information on Myerhoff. Her change of identification to evade the Angel of Death was so touching. But hasn't that been the fate of her people. Changing one's identify to escape fate, with a future generation rediscovering it's Jewish roots. During the discussion I dug up Madeleine Albright's book, Madam Secretary, and reread the dozen pages on her momentous discovery.

And then there is the Jewish friend I made in high school. A well-known Canadian author. A great companion. The best part of going out for dinner was when the waitress came to take his order: Soup or juice? He was so happy to be himself.

But pressured into identity change to survive is perhaps the reason they're so good as actors.

[Jonathan]

hmmm! When is dinner served, Barbara? Can I bring a friend?

[ginny]

Hahaha, what wonderful submissions! We came "in" with a dance (see cover of book) and we go out with one from Fiddler on the Roof, thank you Barbara.

And I am excited about  your new storytelling project with the elders near you. Will you let us know what happens? Wonderful idea.

And a wonderful poem, thank you hongfan, what a substantive discussion you've all made this.

Bellamarie, I am sorry about Sandy and hope that she can get some support in her distress.   I  liked your thoughts on sunrises and sunsets. Our house here on the farm  seems to have two front doors. The one we use faces East, over the barn in the distance, and I love waking up to the first light, love the quality of it. And it's nice in the kitchen in the morning. That means the back (or is it the front?) of the house faces the sunset, and as I sit here at the computer  on the hill every night I can see the sunset, which, now in old age, is blinding (cataracts)  just blinding, but worth the squint.   I had not really thought about sunrise, sunset, so that's a reminder to appreciate the precious things you already have.

Hongfan, that was a wonderful post  about elder care. But recently it seems people are starting to see this arrangement in a more favorable light or more practical light, both by the parents themselves and by their adult children - given one child per family, how could two adult children to take care of four aging parents?  Exactly. And I did enjoy your post on the elders in the community there.

We have the gamut here too. I am fortunate enough to be involved with an Osher LifeLong Learning Institute  and those people are SO  inspiring, I'm the old crone in the group, and many of them are a lot older than I am. I am constantly in admiration of them, in every aspect. Long Live  Old Age when it's done so well, and the people who help make it done that way!

But I'm in "awr" of all of YOU, too. After all, you're the brave new generation sitting here typing to people around the world, like Bubble. Thank you Bubble for all you've added to this discussion, too!  I like your "Take Away" of patience with stories, I need more, myself.


Jonathan, how interesting on Madeline Albright. So many new threads to pursue here, so much learned.

I had planned to end this discussion tomorrow, but I don't see how it could get any better than it has been, so I'll just  echo Jonathan and say sholem (I apparently have been pronouncing that one wrong, too!) and we hope to see you in our coming  Fall Book Club Online discussion, featuring two books:

The Robber Bridegroom by Eudora Welty starting  September 11

and


The Warden on October 9  The Warden is part of The Chronicles of Barsetshire by Anthony Trollope

Both of these available online, free,  and the Warden is also available  on audio, kindle, and every other form you can think of.  The Robber Bridegroom is available on kindle,  too.

So, thank you all for a GREAT discussion and Shalom aleikhem till we meet again.

[ANNIE]

Sholem, to all whom have made this discussion an absolute delight and maybe the longest discussion that we have ever had!  I haven't commented much but I have truly enjoyed all the posts!  And we have all certainty learned a great deal about growing older and for me, much about the Jewish faith!  I am most grateful to all of you!

And now we are off in September and October reading two new fictional books or stories.  Can't wait to get started! Once again, Shalom!

[BarbStAubrey]

I too must echo Sholem - and yes, not only was this an insightful discussion but to have the input from Bubble and Hongfan including the joy of our side room conversation and hearing more about your family Bellamarie which is a joy to read, and Jonathan - our highest complement in this part of the country knowing it is patchwork English - 'ya did good' - with both the recommendation and sharing bits that made the conversation specific and of course Ginny your posts are so full of thoughts and insightful comments - and thanks Annie and Pat for poking in your noses now and again. Hope that is everyone because as Annie said it has been an unusually long as well as a fulfilling discussion - now to find some Jewish soup recipes   

[Jonathan]

What a super DL we have in Ginny.

[ANNIE]

OMG!!! Sorry about that Ginny 😟😟!  You certainly challenged us all through a very special book!
Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!!!!! You're the the top!!!🤗🤗🤗

[bellamarie]

Ginny I am always excited and impressed with your ability to lead a discussion and keep it going with all the questions you put forth.  Thank you, this has been such a great discussion.  Is it really the longest ever!!  WOW!  Good for us!  Each and everyone of you taught me something I will take away from this discussion and book.

Ginny, your home sounds perfect! 

Barb, why is it I can smell baked apples when it's not even Fall yet?

Annie, I hope you are loving your new home.
 
Jonathan and all of you,  Sholem....or as we Italians say, Ciao! (Ciao /CHou  used as a greeting at meeting or parting.)

Can't wait for The Robber Bridegroom by Eudora Welty starting  September 11!

[hongfan]

I am most honored to be with you for the past eight weeks (a lucky number by Chinese) in our journey through this thought-provoking book. It is my first book discussion ever, and thus needless to say, a most special and memorable experience that I will cherish for a long long time.

As Chinese would say, yuanfen has brought us together, this is not the beginning and will not be the ending. I will certainly see you again somewhere in the future.

Aleikhem Shalom!

[ANNIE]

Hongfan we have ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️ed having you join us! Please do it again!!!

[Jonathan]

I'm delighted that you all found this book interesting and provocative, and amazed by what you made of it with such thoughtful posts. For me it was also Yiddish Revisited. What fun it was. First the evening classes in the community center and then the university courses. The first winter we had classes at the community center. The second at the shul, the Orthodox Synagogue. How well I remember coming home one night to have my wife ask me: 'What is that you have on your head?' I had forgotten to take off the yarmulke I had picked up at the door of the shul. Required to be worn, of course.

I did feel sorry for the 'helpless' men in Chapter 7. So it is with a lot of pleasure that I share a story from The Merry Heart: Wit and Wisdom From Jewish Folklore. A good example of man as provider.

'The executive office of the Old Age Home of the Workmen's Circle in New York received a letter, signed by one Sol Rosenkrantz, stating that he was willing to make a bequest to the institution.

When the secretary wrote to inquire concerning the nature of his offer Rosenkrantz replied:

"After I am gone from this earth I bequeath to the Home my wife and mother-in-law.'

And numbering the days is well worth it, even if it's just  rmembering the sunsets and sunrises. Make sure you see the Grand Canyon at sunset. Such a vast space walled by magnificent color. Spend the night at the top of a mountain in New Hampshire. Sunrise was the New Jerusalem in the East.

sholem, or, in Hebrew, shalom             

[hongfan]

Annie, thank you, I will take all those red heart right in! I hope in the future we will read together a book about plants' cultures and their triumphs, wouldn't that be fascinating?! 

Jonathan, sunset in Grand Canyon IS beautiful, it's breathtaking! Sunrise, I would recommend go to Haleakala in Maui, Hawaii, it's said to be the world's highest stand alone mountain and the very name means "House of Sun". I was there 23 years ago, it took us hours to drive up to the top in the dark and then waited seemingly forever, but all is worth it, just need to bring thick coat with you - it's freezing on the top, we brought with us the long thick coat people wear in the winter of Russia, hahahaa!

The book started with a man, a heroic man in the center, and ended with a group of women, the enduring women, somewhere in the background but never faded away - isn't that itself a symbolic message the author wants to convey about the Judaism culture and religious traditions?

Wish you all health and peace and lots of joy and love!