Author Topic: Number Our Days  (Read 36135 times)

hongfan

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #480 on: July 24, 2017, 10:38:24 PM »
The Book Club Online is the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.



They say that growing old is not for sissies. Are they right? When Anthropologist Dr. Barbara Myerhoff received a grant to study aging she decided to do it on subjects in the USA, and let them speak for themselves.

The result is an "often funny, deeply moving narrative of human dignity and courage."

 "One of those rare books that leave the reader somehow changed."-- Bel Kaufman.

Join us! 


Questions to Ponder on  Chapter 7

Chapter 7: "Jewish comes up in you from the roots,"

1.  What is the meaning of the title of this chapter?

2. Why is this the last chapter in the book, do you think?

3. Let's look at some of the themes in this last chapter:

      A. Men vs Women:

I say let us put man and a woman together
To find out which one is smarter
Some say man but I say no
The woman got the man de day should know

And not me but the people they say
That de man are leading de women astray
But I say, that the women of today
Smartre than the man in every way
That's right de woman is uh smarter
That's right de woman is uh smarter
That's right de woman is uh smarter, that's right, that's right

 (Harry Belafonte: Man Smart, Woman Smarter).

In this last chapter Myerhoff characterizes the work and status of men versus that of women in this culture. Which do YOU think is more important, both  in the Center and in the world today? Why? Do you agree that women are stronger?  Why?

    B    What is "domestic religion?"  Is it important? Why or why not?

    C.  The author herself poses several questions. What is your opinion on or  answer to these?

              ------ "What did "count" for these people in reviewing their accomplishments?" (page 266)  The partial  answer: "Above all, the rearing of children who were well-educated, well married,  good citizens, good parents in their own right, children who considered themselves Jews and raised their children as Jews, and who respected their elderly  parents...."   

                      -------What of those who did not have children?  What, in your opinion, should "count" when taking stock of one's life?

             ------- "Is it  really true that women consider their work lesser in their 'heart of hearts?"  (page 267) What would you answer the author on this one?

    4. Speaking of the men's role in family life, as the breadwinner, the author states on page 265, "The money--in all but a few cases had been used to keep the family afloat.  Nothing of it remained."  What effect does it seem this has on the value or worth of the contribution of the men?  (Were you surprised to read this? Why or why not?)

     5. As the book began with Basha, it ends with Basha, and her move. Which of all the Center folks will you miss the most when the book is over? Why? (Have you ever seen one of those sewing machines as described in her apartment? What did the ability to use it mean to her?) What did you think of her instructions to destroy all of her writings, poems, etc?

     6. Why is storytelling important to the members of the Center?
   
     7. Of all of the memorable people and situations  in this chapter, which one made the most impression on you and why?



Those seem enough to start us out, if you don't like any of them, let's talk about what struck YOU?


What do YOU think?


 


Related to the topic of Consciousness, I forgot to mention that there is a book "Quantum Enigma: Physics Encounter Consciousness" by Bruce Rosenblum and Fred Kuttner, two physicists. The book is based on a course taught by one of the authors at UC Santa Cruz on Quantum Physics for people without physics background. The book is a rare one in my view that explains the "strange" Quantum Mechanics in a very clear, easy-to-understand language - this wasn't found in other writings or lectures that I had read or listened before. It also focuses on discussion of the implications from Quantum Mechanics - what it tells us about the consciousness and the role in the world we see around us.

It has a website if you want to know more: http://quantumenigma.com
One of the authors also talked about the book in an interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw848mPRDWU

A couple of you liked the linked article "Are Plants Aware?", I just found that the author Dr. Robert Lanza of that article actually has published two books: "Biocentrism: How Life and Consciousness are the Keys to Understanding the True Nature of the Universe" and "Beyond Biocentrism: Rethinking Time, Space, Consciousness, and the Illusion of Death". You can also find him in a few youtube clips. I watched one and am still not getting it. Maybe I will buy one of his books to see if I can understand it better, but it seems to me what he based his theories on are the basic Quantum Mechanics facts that Quantum Enigma explains rather clearly, so I guess if you haven't read the Quantum Enigma, it might be good to read it before reading Dr. Robert Lanza's books.

so P bubble

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #481 on: July 25, 2017, 02:40:28 AM »
hongfan - interesting links. The quantum enigma book particularly is tantalizing, but I wonder if I would understand any of it even "  in a very clear, easy-to-understand language".  Our library of course does not keep such specialized books, neither the book stores.  I'll have to ponder on that!

I am still reading the last chapter. Schools are closed and Nonna of course has to be available so that Mom can go to work.
Plus it is stiffing hot and with 85% humidity.
I keep nodding while reading, as I agree with many of the observations. 

ginny

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #482 on: July 25, 2017, 09:48:31 AM »
Yes I've just finished the last chapter myself, "Jewish comes up in you from the roots," and tomorrow we'll tackle some of the issues. I expect this one will be quite exciting. :)

First off, tho, Ann, how good to see you here, and we look forward to hearing your observations about  the conclusions the author has reached. I have only glanced at the Epilogue and Afterword but they are together very short and we'll do them for our last look at the Center folks and the book starting  Wednesday August 2.  And thank you for reminding us of Studs  Terkel whose books are almost all interviews, without interpretation: the people speak.

Hongfan, Quantum Enigma  is WAY over my head but I'm enjoying the very concept, and feeling somewhat proud  that I'm in a company who might even bring it up. :)

Bubble, 85 percent humidity could even be dangerous, and here I thought our humidity was high!

And I really enjoyed your and Barbara's ideas such as "If time is not the reality that we imagine, then there could be parallel time running simultaneously?  Then death in one time would not be death in another?"  And Barbara's thoughts  about the concept of hell and heaven.

It does seem that ancient man used rituals even when, in the case of the Romans, the Greek gods and what few native gods the Romans had ceased to have meaning, or were totally forgotten. In that they are like the Chinese peasants Pearl Buck wrote about in The Good Earth.  The ritual to the Roman was all important. And it's no wonder when you see the antics of their deities. But their theories on death and where the souls went after death were quite interesting. Barbara,  you might like to read Cicero on De Natura Deorum: on the Nature of Gods, written in 45 BC. It is a philosophical examination of  theology, contrasting it to other approaches like Stoicism.

Bellamarie, we're looking forward to hearing how Sandy likes her new digs and situation, I hope it's empowering, doing something yourself for the first time may be strengthening. I hope so.

Jonathan, thank you for reminding us of this: certainly helped to form her perspective. And so did the death of Ruth, 'her beloved friend of twenty years, who was like my sister,' to whom she dedicated the book. (p230) As did 'another interesting book about ceremonial death that you might enjoy' (spoken to Shmuel, p229) This is a most unusual book. That one slipped by me, perhaps her conversation with Schmuel was an attempt to get them both "back," so to speak.

And now...on to Chapter 7 in the morning!  I'll put SOME jumping off places in the heading now and in the post below, but as always, YOU can choose what you want to talk about and what you thought was the most important thing in this chapter to you.




ginny

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #483 on: July 25, 2017, 10:24:25 AM »
Questions to Ponder on  Chapter 7

Chapter 7: "Jewish comes up in you from the roots,"

1.  What is the meaning of the title of this chapter?

2. Why is this the last chapter in the book, do you think?

3. Let's look at some of the themes in this last chapter:

      A. Men vs Women:

I say let us put man and a woman together
To find out which one is smarter
Some say man but I say no
The woman got the man de day should know

And not me but the people they say
That de man are leading de women astray
But I say, that the women of today
Smartre than the man in every way
That's right de woman is uh smarter
That's right de woman is uh smarter
That's right de woman is uh smarter, that's right, that's right

 (Harry Belafonte: Man Smart, Woman Smarter).

In this last chapter Myerhoff characterizes the work and status of men versus that of women in this culture. Which do YOU think is more important, both  in the Center and in the world today? Why? Do you agree with the balance the author seems to see in the division of power? Do you agree that women are stronger?  Why?

    B    What is "domestic religion?" Is it important?   Why or why not?

    C.  The author herself poses several questions. What is your opinion on or  answer to these?

              ------ "What did "count" for these people in reviewing their accomplishments?" (page 266)  The partial  answer: "Above all, the rearing of children who were well-educated, well married,  good citizens, good parents in their own right, children who considered themselves Jews and raised their children as Jews, and who respected their elderly  parents...."   

                      -------What of those who did not have children?  What, in your opinion, should "count" when taking stock of one's life?

             ------- "Is it  really true that women consider their work lesser in their 'heart of hearts?'"  (page 267) What would you answer the author on this one?

    4. Speaking of the men's role in family life, as the breadwinner, the author states on page 265, "The money--in all but a few cases had been used to keep the family afloat.  Nothing of it remained."  What effect does it seem this has on the value or worth of the contribution of the men?  (Were you surprised to read this? Why or why not?)

     5. As the book began with Basha, it ends with Basha, and her move. Which of all the Center folks will you miss the most when the book is over? Why? (Have you ever seen one of those sewing machines as described in her apartment? What did the ability to use it mean to her?) What did you think of her instructions to destroy all of her writings, poems, etc?

     6. Why is storytelling important to the members of the Center?
   
     7. Of all of the memorable people and situations  in this chapter, which one made the most impression on you and why?



Those seem enough to start us out, if you don't like any of them, let's talk about what struck YOU?

hongfan

  • Posts: 328
Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #484 on: July 25, 2017, 01:03:04 PM »
Quantum Enigma book online: http://dl2.yazdanpress.ir/LIB/PHYS/1762016-PHY-2.pdf

I think you will be surprised how "easy" it is the authors have made it - there is no formulas or anything, take a look and you will be "expanding your frame" QUICKLY, hahahaa!

Another one I enjoyed very much is a three parts PBS series - The Elegant Universe, if you are pondering on time, space, dimensions beyond the 4 (3 spacial + 1 temporal), big band, multiverse, this is a movie you HAVE to see and will enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSwPN3i4XJs - Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyCBxcX0OQ0 - Part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svOGWVer08M - Part 3



BarbStAubrey

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #485 on: July 25, 2017, 01:36:52 PM »
Thank you thank you Hongfan - found a page of books written by Bruce Rosenblum and Fred Kuttner and decided on Quantum Enigma: Physics Encounters Consciousness - I am a beginner, but like so many things in my life that I was curious about, if I read enough I can develop the questions that starts me on a trail.

Yes, Ginny so many world traditions have their explanation for God or at least a system that helps to give living a meaning - Some of the oldest I have read extensively was the Tao - since Western philosophy is a building blocks of philosophers starting with the Greeks the problem is they are built only on male philosophers and women, who do have another perspective were excluded. There is no way now, thousands of years later to integrate and so it seems we are stuck with the male western philosophy and separately the female philosophers who are not systematized as building blocks. And so I've been searching for answers that explain science as a given -

Granted using western philosophers, the Jesuits continue to teach and pursue science and math as 'Thinking Faith' thereby, they acknowledge the existence of God on more than Faith.  I do not like how some babble that there is no God, both scientists and some copycats who justify their questions making it a stock answer and even go so far to claim that if you are at all educated you cannot believe in God - bah humbug - yes, natural selection was the trail but the elements were all here on earth and in the universe and for me at least those elements were not controlled or engineered by a higher power, but rather they were the gift that allowed what happened to develop. 

And so to read philosophy which I have off and on for about 40 years does not give me the questions that include the development of consciousness - I have been down the trail or development of the physical which only leads me to questions about what we cannot see - It may start with what we call moral character until you realize, what is morally supportive in one culture is not in another and therefore, morality is a byproduct of something - probably group living - but then how do we fit the individual in that system knowing the concept of an individual is very new - most systems were based in a tribal type community with no concept of the individual - on and on it goes with questions that lead me to explore consciousness which I am beginning to think is tied to our soul. That thought may also change as I understand more.

I do not have the formal education that my sister has achieved but something in our genes has us exploring philosophy - this is my sister's web site -
http://www.societyforthestudyofwomenphilosophers.org/Women_Philosophers.html

This is an interview with Kate about how the blog for women philosophers developed
https://unfspb.wordpress.com/2007/10/10/kate-lindemann-the-interview/

And finally photos of her teaching - she is tall, very tall, over 6' and has white hair similar to our father's side of the family.
http://www.msmc.edu/News/former_mount_professor_discusses_women_of_philosop.be
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #486 on: July 25, 2017, 01:59:31 PM »
Wow just saw your latest post Hongfan - great links - watching now the first youtube link...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #487 on: July 25, 2017, 02:06:28 PM »
 Speaking of the men's role in family life, as the breadwinner, the author states on page 265, "The money--in all but a few cases had been used to keep the family afloat.  Nothing of it remained."  What effect does it seem this has on the value or worth of the contribution of the men?

Unfortunately this follows this new idea that your worth is measured by your personal economics - even most collage education is based in increasing your income. As I understand, many of those who most advanced our culture, added glory to our more revered arts did not die with monetary wealth and had to scrounge or satisfy kings and leaders to just earn their daily bread and keep themselves afloat.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

hongfan

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #488 on: July 25, 2017, 03:04:07 PM »
Some of the oldest I have read extensively was the Tao - since Western philosophy is a building blocks of philosophers starting with the Greeks the problem is they are built only on male philosophers and women, who do have another perspective were excluded.

Barbara, you now made me very curious, if I read the above, I got the impression that Tao has women philosophers? And what books have you read and any favorite?

Ginny, somewhere in your posts I think you raised the old question: if no one is in the forest, whether a falling tree makes a sound? Some years ago, I watched the course "Understanding the Brain" by Professor Jeanette Norden, a biologist and neuroscientist at Vanderbilt University, I really liked her course and excellent teaching (I noticed she has a youtube on Learning and Memory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtu-yAm4xik, I haven't watched it but thought this might be of interest to you).

During the course, she addressed this question, she said, from neuroscience, the answer is NO. When the tree falls down, it generates the disturbance in the air surrounding it, and that disturbance (or maybe we call it change in air pressure) reaches us human beings, our ears translate the changes into neuronal signals to our brain, and our brain presents it with a sound. In other words, the sound is not generated from the falling tree, but "locally" generated by our brain, it is our brain's interpretation, i.e., our brain's product triggered by an external stimuli. Which means, if there are other organisms with different biological structures, they may not hear sound from a falling tree, maybe they smell something? feel something? we just don't know, but for us human beings, it is a sound. So, if there is no one in the forest, there is no sound when a tree falls down.

Using an analogy, we now all have smart phones, and you can set different ring tones, some people uses a ring, others use a song, or a piece of music, or a loud shout, etc. When a call comes in, depending on the setup of the phone, it will generate different ring tone. This is not a property of the external event - the phone just receives a digital message telling it a call is coming now, the message has no sound coming with it, but the phone generates the pre-set ring tone.

In my earlier posts, I mentioned that ancient Greeks noticed that to a jaundiced person the honey tastes bitter, to many others it tastes sweet, so what is the "true" taste of honey?

I guess my answer is that the question is irrelevant, the taste is not the property of honey per se, but the property of the interaction between us and the honey, meaning only when we eat the honey, and depending on our condition (jaundiced or "normal"), the taste is generated. In other words, there is no "true" taste of honey. If we raise it to the philosophical level, then there is no "real" world out there independent of us, we are the co-reator of the world we are living in.

Quantum Mechanics will point you towards THAT direction and expand beyond it with all the experimental evidence accumulated in the past century. This is not a comfortable thing to many including Einstein, his papers published in 1905 (annus mirabilis papers) including the Brownian motions and duality of photons (being particle and wave at the same time) helped lay the foundation of Quantum Mechanics but he gradually turned his back on it later in his life because he didn't like what it led to. But since then, more and more theories in the Quantum Mechanics models have been proved by experimental physics (and none has been proven wrong), today 1/3 of our economy is built on technologies derived from Quantum Mechanics (a statement by the Authors of Quantum Enigma). However, the many of the  implications of Quantum Mechanics are not in the main stream, because the authors says it is a "skeleton in the closet", many people rather not to open it.

But this is nothing new really. Buddhism has been teaching that for thousands of years. Ah, Taoism, Taoism, Barbara, what have you taken away from Taoism, I guess you probably haven't heard that Laozi (Lao Tzu) is Shakyamuni's teacher? hahahaa - of course no one will acknowledge it. I am now thinking who said it in the book: if you study history, you will loose one eye. Maybe 1.5 eyes. :)



hongfan

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #489 on: July 25, 2017, 04:35:04 PM »
How East and West think in profoundly different ways?
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20170118-how-east-and-west-think-in-profoundly-different-ways

This article is new but the observations and conclusions have been around for a while, by researchers in the field of intelligence.

I wonder which one Jewish thinking is closer to?

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #490 on: July 25, 2017, 05:27:25 PM »
Oh dear Hongfan, my use of the dash - does not convey as well - in this instance I was attempting to let folks reading know it was a second thought - although, I do have a nice video of nuns practicing Zen Buddhism for 90 days at the Back Hung Temple that include the practice of Doing Ahn Geo and Cham Sun practices however, they are not Taoists - I do not know of any early female Taoists -

The books I have read are so numerous - all were translations so I have been limited - For several years I threw coins for I Ching using Carol K. Anthony's guide and read her The Philosophy of the I Ching  There were others but I culled my library about 3 years ago of so many I was no longer using as references. 

Had to read this several times over a course of probably 20 years to have some understanding, Tao Te Ching By Lao Tzu, translated by R. B. Blakney

Of course there was Thomas Cleary who translated so many texts - comes to mind The Secret of the Golden Flower, I Ching Mandalas, Awakening to the Tao, The Inner Teachings of Taoism 

There is a small group I meet with once a month and one of the less than a dozen members is a practicing Taoist from Taiwan - he is also knowledgeable of Buddhism as is a couple who lived in India for about 20 years and a couple that the wife grew up in China and her experience is with Confucius - and so we have several helps interpreting various eastern perspectives while we read our chosen texts - to me all three interpretations, Tao, Buddhist, Confucius is about our state of mind and our behavior rather than, who we are - how we physically or mentally developed - the emphasis is not so much on a God but a system of thinking and handling life; good, bad, or indifferent.  Buddhism does have a narrative but Taoism, as I understand, the narrative is illustrating rather than basic from which the beliefs and system arise.

For a narrative of life, I think the American Indian has wonderful myths and creation stories - I like very much the symbol of the drum beating to the rhythm of the heartbeat of the earth as dancers mimic the heartbeat becoming one with the earth. All myths were trying to make sense out of limited knowledge that now we have science uncovering reality that in many cases was perfectly illustrated by some of the myths.

I also found some riveting thoughts in: Montreal 2010-Facing Multiplicity: Psyche, Nature, Culture: Proceedings of the Xviiith Congress of the International Association for Analytical Psychology by Pramila Bennett
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #491 on: July 25, 2017, 05:49:17 PM »
Whoa......  chapter 7 and all this talk about Quantum Enigma, physics, Einstein, Taoism, Buddhism, etc., etc., has me thinking this last chapter just may be a bit over my head, or I'm just not ready to go that deep in my thinking on these hot summer days. Ya'll carry on and I'll sit back at my bay resort pool and beach 🌊 for a couple of days and enjoy the sunsets and sunrises, 🌅 and not even consider how it all began.  The only book I will be reading is my new Elin Hilderbrand's Summerland.   
👙👒🕶🐚☀️🍷🍸🏄‍♀️🚴🏻⛵️🏖🛍🎼
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #492 on: July 25, 2017, 06:06:03 PM »
East and West thinking - yes - however, there are two who have a similar way of seeing life as those from the east, that are backbones to my understanding of Christian, in particular Catholic thinking.

St. John of the Cross, Ascent of Mount Carmel and Dark Night of the Soul I read in High School - attending a Carmelite High School and have re-read both many times since, most often when life hands me a pile of lemons - I prefer my tattered 69 year old copy translated by Allison Peers. St. John of the Cross very logically lays out what Hope really is - any particular that is hoped for is not hope - if we have a hoped for outcome then that is memory - hope is the unknown and Faith is accepting the unknown so that all there is for us to do is love.

He also says things like,
"In order to arrive at having pleasure in everything, Desire to have pleasure in nothing.
Thou must go by a way wherein thou hast no pleasure,
In order to arrive at that which thou knowest not... go by a way thou knowest not...
In order to arrive at that which thou possessest not,... go by the way thou possessest not,
In order to arrive at that which thou are not, ...go through that which thou are not."

Lots of pretty words (I reduced the sentences that are the repeat of the earlier sentences) with the entire thought essentially saying, to be without ego while running the show.
https://www.amazon.com/Ascent-Mount-Carmel-John-Cross/dp/1935785982

And then the other, who I only read in the last 30 years is Meister Eckhart - his thoughts on connecting to our soul is some of the most profound, beautiful writing and thinking I have read.
https://philocyclevl.files.wordpress.com/2016/10/meister-eckhart-maurice-o-c-walshe-bernard-mcginn-the-complete-mystical-works-of-meister-eckhart-the-crossroad-publishing-company-2009.pdf

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #493 on: July 25, 2017, 06:11:52 PM »
Oh Bellamarie - we just went for a bit into an anti room for a tête–à–tête - back to the book and Ginny's questions... ;)
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Jonathan

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #494 on: July 25, 2017, 10:41:23 PM »
What an exciting exchange of thouhts and ideas. I've stopped at these fountains of Eastern and Western  inspiration myself over the years. I always come away feeling that intellect is still the most beautiful seductress.

Happy Birthday, Bellamarie. You're right. Myerhoff is a good storyteller. I was happy to have her bring Shmuel back into the narrative. He obviously was a great influence in her picture of the Center's people. Of course that must be Shmuel and Rebekah on the cover. It's her photo. Does it make her less of an anthropologist? Perhaps. In Chapter 7 she's a bit of a feminist, when she makes such a happy ending of it.

I can't get over the book she reccomended to Shmuel. I've had it in the house for many years. Unread. I'm lost in all the lore. This, off the book jacket will give you an idea: 'Philippe Aries, the distinguished French historian...has produced in this major new book a superb meditation on Western Man's changing attitudes to death....(His) remarkable detective work is matched by the richness of his source materials, which embrace churches and graveyards, religious rituals, wills and testaments, love letters, novels, poems, paintings, diaries, town plans, crime and sanitation reports, bureaucratic papers on the positioning of burial grounds in 18th century Paris and complaints of grave-robbing in 19th century Edinburgh. As he unravels the tangled mysteries of our accumulated terrors and beliefs, he exposes the foundation - indeed the pathology - of our cultural and psychological tensions in the face of death, at the moment in our history when another  major transformation of attitudes may be beginning.'

I wonder what Shmuel would have made of it.  He and the author must have had many a discussion about many things.

Enjoy your days of relaxation. Which is the more inspiring, sunrise or sunset? Oh, by the way, I have it on good authority...the Angel of Death does not have wings.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #495 on: July 25, 2017, 11:23:26 PM »
Sofie in her domesticity sounds like the kind of grandmother we read about in many children's books. Never thought of that - having a good relationship with your mother's mother seems to assure we have an easy time enjoying elders. It sure fits for me - my father's mother was quiet with little to say - my mother was always uncomfortable around her - I noticed my cousins, my father's sister's children were not put off by her so there may be something to it.

Interesting too it was my father's mother who had a large kitchen that was also their living/dining room with a large round table in the middle of the room that could easily sit 10 - there was a formal living room in the front but it was never used - in fact every chair was wrapped in newspaper with white sheets draped over them. We kids could go in during our visit. There was a small coal burning parlor stove and in the gleaming polished desk was a box of cards that we were allowed to look at through the stereoscope. There were also a large bundle of post cards where the light shined through the paper in spots to show a full moon or light reflected on building, trees, water or snow capped mountains.

My father's mother made the best hasenpfeffer - some times as a stew and other times with spaetzle - I think she could have been a bit like Sofie but my grandfather was not a very nice man.

Bubble do you have a recipe for soup other then Chicken - I am searching for soup recipes - found a few but not as many as I thought I had.

The soup I made on Sunday was thick and good and lasted for 2 dinners with enough for lunch today - I was hoping to find a cucumber soup - lots of cucumbers in the stores - I found a good butternut squash recipe and another for acorn squash that will be a treat a bit later when the squash are plentiful.

I laughed remembering, I found an old apple soup recipe I used to make for the children - I even had a summer berry recipe that I used to make for breakfast.

I would really like some soup recipes so if any of y'all have soup recipes from your family that you can share with me I will be so thankful.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe


BarbStAubrey

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #497 on: July 26, 2017, 02:49:40 PM »
Whoops did not see  your post Jonathan - interesting, he also wrote a book about the change in childhood and I notice amazon has a 5 book series that address the common issues of everyday life by Philippe Aries. 

I remember from my needlework days when during the Victorian period both here in the US and in Britain samplers were stitched using the hair of the deceased and we learned how in the US there was finally time to mourn the dead - earlier we were too busy carving out a living and building communities to take time to celebrate the life/death of anyone.

I did notice the used books on death starts at only .50 - says something about the popularity of the topic... and yet, we all die... interesting. I wonder if we live with the concept even if we never use the words, to be aware of the evil eye and so to acknowledge death would leave the evil eye an opportunity to sneak in some unexpected happenings.

Thanks for the link Bubble - do you often do soup? Do you have a favorite or do you have a family soup recipe? I forgot about Onion soup and the Spinach & Tortellini Soup sounds interesting as well as, the Fennel Carrot Soup - both new to me - most of the bean soups I no longer can tolerate and I cannot tolerate corn but I found to eliminate the corn does not change the soup that much.

Found my cucumber soup - cold - made in a blender with yogurt - easy as can be and so that will be Sunday's soup - I really need to learn how to take photos with my cell phone and upload them so I have a diary of my soups. When you are counting down the years I want to complete some of these bucket list kind of 'doings' Still have to do my apple something for the week - and I did pull out my knitting - ha I may turn into a Sophia yet!

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Jonathan

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #498 on: July 26, 2017, 04:59:38 PM »
I'd walk a mile for a good French onion soup.

What an astonishing chapter. What it meant to come to America! A quantum leap for Jewish women in role recognition. From Bobbe to Balebosteh. For men, on the other hand, from Patriarch to Accessory.

But pity the poor women at The Center who never got the chance to be the  grandmother who was so endearing. Like Sofie Mann.

ginny

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #499 on: July 26, 2017, 08:57:14 PM »
What wonderful comments on what is probably the most difficult chapter to discuss.

Jonathan said:
What an astonishing chapter. What it meant to come to America! A quantum leap for Jewish women in role recognition. From Bobbe to Balebosteh. For men, on the other hand, from Patriarch to Accessory.


This is one of the themes and I know the questions really don't capture the essence of the material but  you are dead right here.

Was the author successful, do you think, in categorizing the men as played out? I wondered when she began saying it was the women who did all the work, because it seemed to me it was the men who were doing all the work, being President, being Treasurer, etc?

So I just wonder if you agree with her that the Power Behind The Throne is and has been the women all along because that IS her premise, isn't it?



But pity the poor women at The Center who never got the chance to be the  grandmother who was so endearing. Like Sofie Mann.

Or those with no children at all. If, as one's life seems to be shortening, and one looks back, which i think is natural, and asks oneself what really "counted" in their life, what would one say?

Here's what Myerhoff found in the Center people:    ------ "What did "count" for these people in reviewing their accomplishments?" (page 266)  The partial  answer: "Above all, the rearing of children who were well-educated, well married,  good citizens, good parents in their own right, children who considered themselves Jews and raised their children as Jews, and who respected their elderly  parents...."   

Is this, do you  think, a universal feeling? It's certainly an accomplishment.

Love the soup talk and recipes. I don't make much soup but I made a potato soup once which was out of this world.

 This was very interesting Jonathan:



 'Philippe Aries, the distinguished French historian...has produced in this major new book a superb meditation on Western Man's changing attitudes to death....(His) remarkable detective work is matched by the richness of his source materials, which embrace churches and graveyards, religious rituals, wills and testaments, love letters, novels, poems, paintings, diaries, town plans, crime and sanitation reports, bureaucratic papers on the positioning of burial grounds in 18th century Paris and complaints of grave-robbing in 19th century Edinburgh. As he unravels the tangled mysteries of our accumulated terrors and beliefs, he exposes the foundation - indeed the pathology - of our cultural and psychological tensions in the face of death, at the moment in our history when another  major transformation of attitudes may be beginning.'


I think I need to read that book.  Another great suggestion, Jonathan. All this talk of death and dying makes me think of cemeteries.

I have somewhat  of a long held  interest in cemeteries. I actually, as strange as it may sound,  did some graduate work on some aspects of them.  That sounds odd but it shouldn't, some of the world's cemeteries are living history. There's Highgate  in London with the most amazing statuary you'll ever see, and this city of the dead:

There's Pere Lachaise in Paris, ditto on the incredible sculptures, many in bronze. They are very moving. I can't find my photos so here is Chopin's grave in Pere Lachaise:


There's the Necropolis at Pompeii: , with its own statuary:   Here you can see a bisellium or seat of honor, you can see the rolls on each end, room for two, but only seating one: the guest of honor. These gentlemen were important enough to receive this honor at public events, but they had been freedmen  (free men from slaves) and that's the highest they could attain. Obviously they are proud of it.  I think gravestones are fascinating, because they hope to tell the story that our Center folks tell verbally. .

You don't see statuary and mausoleums like these any more. 

Such interesting side information and links, Hongfan,  and Barbara, on the different philosophies.

We were all posting there together but I went back and reread the posts, thank  you for posting this, hongfan:  Ginny, somewhere in your posts I think you raised the old question: if no one is in the forest, whether a falling tree makes a sound? Some years ago, I watched the course "Understanding the Brain" by Professor Jeanette Norden, a biologist and neuroscientist at Vanderbilt University, I really liked her course and excellent teaching (I noticed she has a youtube on Learning and Memory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtu-yAm4xik, I haven't watched it but thought this might be of interest to you).

During the course, she addressed this question, she said, from neuroscience, the answer is NO. When the tree falls down, it generates the disturbance in the air surrounding it, and that disturbance (or maybe we call it change in air pressure) reaches us human beings, our ears translate the changes into neuronal signals to our brain, and our brain presents it with a sound. In other words, the sound is not generated from the falling tree, but "locally" generated by our brain, it is our brain's interpretation, i.e., our brain's product triggered by an external stimuli. Which means, if there are other organisms with different biological structures, they may not hear sound from a falling tree, maybe they smell something? feel something? we just don't know, but for us human beings, it is a sound. So, if there is no one in the forest, there is no sound when a tree falls down.


Thank you for summarizing that, but dogs hear, too, right? And deer? And sound is different from exhalation, one could practice on the family pet. I'd love to really debate this issue, but I love reading all these, to me, very different theories. Isn't there some thought that a dog can recognize his master's voice from others, or is that an old advertisement for a gramophone and not valid? (Too bad I'm not in the Center, I love to pil pul).

And I LOVED the article and tape of your sister's presentation, Barbara! Did  you say somewhere she found an Arab influence in Greek philosophy? I thought you did, but I can't find it now.   That makes perfect sense to me because the Greeks treated women abominably, particularly Spartan wives. Much rather be a Roman woman than a Greek woman, myself, any day.

My understanding of Greek religion and  mythology (not philosophy)  is the  Greek conception of the gods came from Homer and Hesiod, but they must also have heard stories, themselves, old ones. And who  knows from what area? Of course nobody is saying Greek mythology is similar in any way to  what we're talking about here.

I think what I was thinking about reading  Cicero's De Natura Deorum,  is not that he was the first to do philosophy on theology, that never entered my mind, but that it was quite brave of him to compare all the  other philosophies  in a dialogue,  Stoic, Epicurean, etc., against Roman religion. To actually question the nature of gods at all. That took guts, in such a superstitious ritualistic time.  And after all it was Cicero who wrote about the  "radical possibility of continued existence after death through deification or the immortality of the soul," (that's a quote) and he died in 43 B.C.






ginny

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #500 on: July 26, 2017, 09:27:36 PM »
And I liked this dialogue between Bubble and hongfan:

hongfan: 
I would even go further to argue that taking out all regions, this world might be more peaceful, so many religious wars and so many lives lost because of it

 Bubble:

I agree with you on all this, except   I realize that taking out all religions would be for some people like pulling the crutches from under them.  They need the belief to feel secure, to give them a direction in life.  I know it is not like that for all religious people, but true for many of them who do not question.

In the book, religion seems to be more of tradition, force of habit than profound faith.


These are two great points from both of  you.

1. I don't think it's possible to take out all religions from the world, do you? Man will have religion, no matter what it looks like to others, I think. But what do you all think?

2.Bubble, I notice you say "In the book, religion seems to be more of tradition, force of habit, than profound faith."

That's quite a statement, are you saying it's not true outside  of the book, in  your experience? So the description of it as you show here is confined to the book, or to the people in this particular Center? Or?

Great provocative points of view from both of you!!

I don't know what struck you all the most about this chapter but I wish I could forget hearing about the woman with the 14 abortions. That's a lot.

What is the author doing in this chapter? Theoretically it's the end of the book. Is there something it's tying  up or is it just another chapter/ view of the Center folks?  Is this the climax that Bellamarie spoke of? If so what does it resolve?

I thought that Victor Turner's ideas that sacred symbols have two opposite poles,                 one abstract, ideal, normative, and the other concrete physiological and affective. (page 257), was interesting. They fuse in rituals, did you all find that true in your opinion?  I wonder what Shmuel would think about this, it's the same type of thinking he did.

Wasn't that a touching and poignant story about Sylvia on Friday afternoon when the 18 men were praying, she,  with the respectful  little piece of folded toilet paper on her head, she who  was ordinarily  disoriented,  had come to life and  was reciting the prayer for the dead. I found that very moving (page 259). 

And no, in answer to one of the author's other questions (please see heading on the top of the page) I do not think in their heart of hearts that the women felt that ..here's the quote:
             ------- "Is it  really true that women consider their work lesser in their 'heart of hearts?"  (page 267) What would you answer the author on this one?


No, I don't think they did, or any other women do. The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world, right?  In their case,  in fact,  I think they felt the  opposite and I think the author is trying to say she does as well.  It seemed to me that great stress is being put  on the fact that without the money making, in, as Barbara says, a society which values worth by money, the men wither and die without this status,  but the women,  who have always held up the family traditions which are the real heart of Judaism (according to the author if I'm reading her right) rather than the study and reciting of prayers, take predominance by rituals like  the lighting of the candles, and therefore are   more important.

Have I read it incorrectly? What was your own conclusion? Did you have it before you read this book?


BarbStAubrey

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #501 on: July 26, 2017, 10:07:27 PM »
My take was that the women are dominate not only because their work is necessary, they added memory. They do the household work with an extra bit of something that says home and love but - what I see as the biggie - they handle and dole out the money - the men are buried in their studies and prayer no longer earning and handling money.

I personally figured that out years ago - the closer you are to the earning and investing money, controlling the purse strings, the more you earn for your work - you can be the most accomplished artist, writer, musician, crafts-person in your field, the best teacher, nurse, fireman or save lives as an EMS assistant, policeman, soldier - you name it - any occupation that serves people or glorifies an artistic accomplishment, none of which directly makes money - the one who sells the art work, the music, the book (not the author, who does get a nice cut but the publisher or the movie director) the one who arranges, obtains and controls the grants or is the show piece professor that will attract the donations and grants or the president of the hospital board etc etc. they earn the larger incomes because they are closer to the financial center. Whom ever is closest to controlling or handling the economic workings in a system has the power.

Back before women had a job outside their home, the women who had a household allowance were less beholden to pleasing the husband and did their job making their own decisions, even making a few dollars on the side with the sale of eggs or quilts or taking in laundry - whom ever is working outside the home is expanding some of who they are to that job and so, the men used up so much more of themselves to bring home the necessary money year in and year out. They did not have as much of themselves invested in the home or their family as the women, who at times did work outside the home and left some of themselves that was not available to their family just as the example of the women who wet nursed and had none for her own child. We heard so often of the cobbler whose children went barefoot -

To me I see the women invested more of themselves in the home and after the men's retirement from earning, the women handled more of the money than the men, putting them in a more powerful position to the man's noble and faithful work ethic that served others, with only the money for selling their time, energy and skill as their contribution to their home and family.

At least before the industrial Revolution many men worked from their home - weavers, farmers, coopers, cheese makers, tailors, blacksmiths - they were working in or around their home with workshops adjacent so that they were part of the family just as the wives who were washing, cooking, gathering eggs and growing herbs.     
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

so P bubble

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #502 on: July 27, 2017, 04:06:34 AM »
Bubble, I notice you say "In the book, religion seems to be more of tradition, force of habit, than profound faith."

I did mean in relation to the book.  But around me I see also some with deep faith and conviction.  Unfortunately there are also those who cannot restrain themselves and want to force their conviction on  others, creating animosity rather than understanding.  Maybe the rabbi in the book was one like that?

I believe women are the pillar of the family, the strength that makes it work.  They give the honor of being "head" to the men for whom prestige or pride is so important. But they work diligently and with power in the background.  They certainly know their worth even if not acknowledged openly.

About cemetery.  When on a cruise in the Mediterranean, we stopped in Genoa with some free time.  Instead of shopping, my mother insisted that we go and visit the cemetery.  She called it the richest in art of all Europe and maybe in the world.  She was right.  The statues, the stelae, the photos even, it was incredible.  There I saw also the tombs arranged  one on top of the others, eight in height  I think, and covering whole walls.  There was an old lady there who wanted to put flowers for her husband at one before last on the top.  For that she was pulling a ladder on wheels, like the one used to access a plane.  My husband rushed to help her, it was such a chore. 
The whole place was pristine, with many trees and lovely paved alleys.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #503 on: July 27, 2017, 08:12:38 AM »
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #504 on: July 27, 2017, 08:15:04 AM »
Wow here it is in all its glory...

https://archive.org/details/numberourdays_201701
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

so P bubble

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #505 on: July 27, 2017, 01:08:23 PM »
Wow Barb, what a find.  I Had to watch it twice - I was deeply moved.  It really brought to life the book.  Thank you so much.

hongfan

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #506 on: July 27, 2017, 04:29:25 PM »
Well, a lot to catch up!

Barbara, thank you for the links to your sister's website and her interview, I haven't got chance to go through them but will do later, I think I will need to come back here after we finish the book to go through some of the posts and links again, a lot of them are wonderful and deserve more time to re-read and think about. Woman philosophers, particularly in ancient time, is an intriguing topic, and I guess the challenge, as other historic research, is the material available and accessible?

Regarding Taoism, you have read more than I do, truly. I dare not to put my fingers on YI, yet. Confucius is quoted to say that he dared not to read YI before 50. So I guess I will wait until I am 70 or even after that. Taoism, is always very difficult to be discussed, or conveyed in words, at least I have always felt that way, words are a force of limiting and confining, while Taoism, in my view, is the very opposite to that, it's a force of liberating from any limit and confinement, so I tend to think words are not the right vehicle for conveying Taoism, stories might be the better ones. Have you read Zhuangzi (his name is Zhuang Zhou, the "zi" attached to the end means "Master", not part of the name)? Laozi and Zhuangzi are the two representatives of Taoism, Zhuangzi is a master of story telling and a grand master of literature, his book Zhuangzi is all about stories in beautiful language, I tend to think it an easier read than Tao Te Ching, but I am not sure how good is the translation, I just got one translation by Burton Watson for my daughter, I will check to see how is the translation and let you know.

Ginny, the Arab influence on Greek philosophies is mentioned in Barbara's link to her sister's teaching photo and article.

And Greek vs. Roman - haha, am I marching into the mine field again? I agree with you that I would also rather being a woman in Rome than one in Athens, I don't know much about Spartan women, but I am under the impression that Spartan women could own land and daughters could inherit as well as sons, maybe your comments is related to the Spartan men "lending" their wives to other men?

But one question came to my mind is this: why seems there are quite a few ancient Greek woman poets known to this day, of course Sappho is the most famous one I guess, but seems there are more recorded (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Ancient_Greek_women_poets), compared to Rome or ancient China. Does that mean, in a highly male dominant society like ancient Greek, these women's intellectual abilities and works were actually admired and thus recorded and handed down? And then this leads to the question of women's education in ancient Greek, at least those women poets were well educated, otherwise they couldn't have achieved what they had achieved, right? Isn't this puzzling?

hongfan

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #507 on: July 27, 2017, 04:51:15 PM »
B    What is "domestic religion?"  Is it important? Why or why not?

To me, it seems through this domestic religion, Judaism, in the form of traditions is passed down from generations to generations, wherever they are, and whatever external environment they are in. In this way, maybe you can see this as a Judaism Gene that copied down from the female side rather than the male side, like the gene in our mitochondria, what they called "Mitochondrial Eve".

C.  The author herself poses several questions. What is your opinion on or  answer to these?

------ "What did "count" for these people in reviewing their accomplishments?" (page 266)  The partial  answer: "Above all, the rearing of children who were well-educated, well married,  good citizens, good parents in their own right, children who considered themselves Jews and raised their children as Jews, and who respected their elderly  parents...."   
-------What of those who did not have children?  What, in your opinion, should "count" when taking stock of one's life?


In Chinese culture, filial piety is the foundation of all virtues, and without a heir (actually a son, daughter here doesn't count) is the biggest unfilial pious act, a very big punishment to the family. So it's tough for couples without a son. But  of course in now days, the views are softened - actually, jokingly people today in China would say, have a son, you laugh once and cry for the rest - because the groom needs to have a house and a good income to attract girls (more boys than girls in China now), and houses in China's cities   are becoming ridiculously expensive. Nevertheless, thousands of years' tradition is hard to change over night.

hongfan

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #508 on: July 27, 2017, 05:24:21 PM »
7. Of all of the memorable people and situations  in this chapter, which one made the most impression on you and why?

I love this chapter and is a heart touching one for the part on Sabbath, Papa is the king, Mama is the queen, and we are the luckiest people on the earth! Isn't this wonderful to have once every week? I would love to have it, and I guess everyone would love to have it. The only thing I am a little afraid of is that a lot of work involved for the preparations - you need to make house very clean, all the food (every week mama has to find some fish or the best food she can find, and this is EVERY week), and you have to get all the kids clean and behave, and all of that seems a lot of work to me, but that is probably why Jewish mothers are so capable, and so efficient, and in the meantime so full of wisdom (Sofie Mann), as I am writing, it seems so good, is the author somewhat dramatizing it? I am not trying to be cynic here, not at all, I am just curious.

The most touching part to me is the part about Sylvia, the contrast of her at that moment and outside of that moment based on author's description is dramatic to the point that is shocking. Is that real? I, as you know, don't have experience of those religious moments. I don't have any doubt that the state of mind is different, and could be VERY different at those moments, but could this be that dramatically different? The author was almost painting a comparison of being dead vs. alive. What do you think? You all have religious experiences, I wish Bellamarie heard my question on the beach. I am really curious, and I am thinking I will look around to find a synagogue and go there.

Bubble, can I go to a synagogue if I am not a Jew or Judaism follower? Would this be seen intrusive to people in the synagogue?

Bubble, I am curious about your Sabbath, could you tell us your experiences on Sabbath and other Jewish holidays? From the book, I can feel the peace and loving permeating in the air in those 10 days between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, isn't this wonderful? It's like a annual bath to the soul. I would love to have that in Chinese tradition too!

And I learned Sabbatical (very 7 years) and Jubilee (every 49 years) are from Jewish roots!

hongfan

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #509 on: July 27, 2017, 05:37:08 PM »
Oh, on cemetery and gravestone. The only female ruling Emperor (I prefer not to call her Empress) in Chinese history is Wu Zetian in the Tang dynasty, I believe she was actually a very wise and capable ruler (she took the throne from her son, but of course she was demonized in the Chinese history), she ordered her gravestone to be erected with no single word on it, no single word, and you can still see that gravestone today, standing there, in silence!

Just by this act, I would call her a woman philosopher!

ginny

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #510 on: July 27, 2017, 08:08:45 PM »
Goodness, Barbara, thank you for finding that and  putting it here.   It's so poignant, especially when you see the author saying but I will BE  an old woman, God bless her, dead within 6 years.  Doesn't she seem a warm caring person? I wish I had seen this before reading the book.

I really enjoyed seeing the Center people and trying to figure out who was who. Basha must be the one who was moving? And is that Shmuel doing some philosophizing on the boardwalk?  I don't remember the Center director who was younger and so passionate about the old folks and their housing? He'd been there 14  years?  Is he in the book? Membership is $300 a year and is it monthly dues of $6?  That's a pretty high membership for somebody clearing $285 a month.  I can't remember money in the late 70's, I think it must have gone a lot further..

I've watched it twice so far trying to figure out who is who. It's really good to see them all. I had so totally identified with them it's a shock to see they are actually older.

I didn't see Kominsky, was he there? Jacob was, did you catch that? But his name was Harry? I need to watch it again. I wish at the end it had shown all the characters by their book names. But were you surprised by the numbers at the Center?  A LOT more than we've met in the book,  and the vitality there in their eyes? That's a lovely addition to the discussion, just wonderful. Thank you so much!

hongfan

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #511 on: July 27, 2017, 08:23:05 PM »
Barbara, amazing, how did you find the movie?! I just finished watching it, and now I saw Hannah feeding the pigeons, Olga telling and retelling the story, Basha 1 talking about her sewing machine, Basha 2 moving away, Basha 3 at the Sabbath table saying the prayer, Abe the director, Jacob the leader and his dramatic ceremonial death.

Now inevitably I start to guess is Shmuel in the movie? Is the man living alone talking about his marriage the Shmuel in the book? Or Shmuel was already dead by then (he died one year earlier than Jacob)?

If YOU are the director of the movie, would you alter any part of the movie now that we have read the whole book?


hongfan

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #512 on: July 27, 2017, 08:34:04 PM »
Ginny, just saw your post, isn't the director Abe in the book? I didn't think I have seen Kominsky there, he, by the book, should be much younger than the Center people, right?

I wish I could guess who is that lovely lady in fancy clothing (in white dress with a fancy hat) and dancing beautifully. I only saw once, I am sure I will pick up more next round.

But Ginny I would actually love to see the movie now that we have finished the book, so that we can do a comparison between what we have taken from the book and what we have got from the movie.

I agree that they all seem much younger in the book, and so then my question is that why she didn't include one of those group story telling scenes in the movie, aren't those are the parts with most vitality, at least in the book?

Barbara, what a treat, thank you!

ginny

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #513 on: July 27, 2017, 08:46:43 PM »
Hongfan, what wonderful points you've made and questions raised!

On the subject of women in ancient Greece we'd need a week  and it's way beyond the scope of this discussion.  Think of the book Not Without My Daughter, if you've read it,  and you'll have pretty much the gist.

This rough animation gives you some idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdA7FRDINp4

In essence, Athenian women had severely limited rights. They not only had no political rights, they were limited by law in independent action. Her marriage was arranged for her, she could not inherit property, her husband, father or brother did all her dealings, she was kept in seclusion in the home, she did not go out, ordinarily,  and if she HAD to go out she was in a shawl and always  accompanied by a slave.  They had separate quarters in the house, etc., etc., etc.

Such women as Clytemnestra, Penelope, Nausicaa, Andromache, Helen and Electra are portrayed in literature as having a moderately free social life but this behavior of heroines is governed by literary convention, not fact. You mention Sappho, whose poetry is almost entirely confined to her personal world of family and female friends, and she appears to have been a leading personality among her circle of women and girls who would have been her only audience.  It IS felt that some of the aristocratic women in the families of tyrants in the 7th c BC were allowed a measure of independence which probably reflects these woman's social value when family and marriage alliances were important.  It was a VERY restricted world for women at the time.


ginny

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #514 on: July 27, 2017, 09:12:38 PM »
Hongfan, Ginny, the Arab influence on Greek philosophies is mentioned in Barbara's link to her sister's teaching photo and article.  Thank you, I am glad to know I did not imagine it.

Bubble, thank you for that analysis of what you see around you vis a vis what we're seeing portrayed in the book. This: They give the honor of being "head" to the men for whom prestige or pride is so important. But they work diligently and with power in the background.  They certainly know their worth even if not acknowledged openly. is also a very ancient custom.

I loved your mother's wanting to visit the cemeteries in Genoa: She called it the richest in art of all Europe and maybe in the world.  She was right.  The statues, the stelae, the photos even, it was incredible.

There really is nothing like an Italian cemetery. I love the photos. Even in Switzerland in the very bottom of the country, near ValleMaggia, and Lake Maggiore,  the Italian part, the cemeteries are charming. They are behind the church so after the service, the little gardens each has can be tended, and the graves visited, and fresh  flowers put on and kept up.   I LOVE the photographs.  Unfortunately the stacking you recounted has another side as well,  but let's keep the happy illusion in front of us, as it was meant to be.

Barbara, you're right on the money makes worth thing. What is the headline tonight? Jeff Bezos  pulled ahead of Bill  Gates for  a bit today in their billions of wealth. Well, after all, we ARE a capitalistic society, the  point IS to make money,  and Gates and his wife have done a LOT for the world with their money and  Bezos, who can deny a man who started Amazon in his garage his moment of accomplishment?

Hongfan, what an interesting thing about the tombstone of Wu Zetian! Not a word.

On this: And Greek vs. Roman - haha, am I marching into the mine field again? I agree with you that I would also rather being a woman in Rome than one in Athens, I don't know much about Spartan women, but I am under the impression that Spartan women could own land and daughters could inherit as well as sons, maybe your comments is related to the Spartan men "lending" their wives to other men?

No, see above. I am sorry the excellent film on the Spartan Bride has been removed by the BBC but if you ever get a chance to see the comedic Don't Tell The Spartan Bride, you'd really get an eye full. :)

But one question came to my mind is this:why seems there are quite a few ancient Greek woman poets known to this day, of course Sappho is the most famous one I guess, but seems there are more recorded (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Ancient_Greek_women_poets), compared to Rome or ancient China. Does that mean, in a highly male dominant society like ancient Greek, these women's intellectual abilities and works were actually admired and thus recorded and handed down? And then this leads to the question of women's education in ancient Greek, at least those women poets were well educated, otherwise they couldn't have achieved what they had achieved, right? Isn't this puzzling?


I would not make too many  assumptions on any of this, as many of them are only known by references in literature and small fragments.  Remember, too, that educated Romans wrote IN  Greek and studied Greek and their tutors were  Greek and that may have gone a long way toward promoting Greek writers. Here is a list of both sides, https://sententiaeantiquae.com/2016/08/01/an-impressive-list-of-female-authors-from-antiquity/ and you can see that some of the early ones were thought to be apocryphal.  Women authors or philosophers of antiquity is not a subject on which I am informed but there are plenty of books out there on it.

It makes sense to me if  people can debate if there even was a Homer (Homer!!)  or that he didn't write both the Iliad and the Odyssey, then it makes sense to wonder if all of these women actually existed, many are only left in fragments and men's writings about them. BUT I  know almost nothing about them and should  not venture into that area.  It's a BIG field and those who specialize in women's achievements and lives  in antiquity (and there are many books on it)  know a lot more about that than I do. But I would not want to be an ancient Greek woman, Athenian or Spartan. I'll take the Romans any day.

ginny

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #515 on: July 27, 2017, 09:29:12 PM »
Hongfan, whjat a wealth of really super provocative questions! I hope you all read over her questions carefully as I'd love to hear the answers.

I am going off myself to think about some of them. I do think Shmuel was the natty fellow on the boardwalk, because the man in the house was not married and did not wish to marry again and Shmuel was married.

I thought Abe was the tall older man, a large man, shown once standing with a couple of others in front of the room, I'll have to watch it a 3rd time.

I LOVED the way the author interacted with the  elders.




bellamarie

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #516 on: July 28, 2017, 11:35:17 AM »
Oh my I just checked in after getting back from my stay at the Bay, and have so much to catch up on. 

First let me thank Jonathan for the birthday wishes, and answer his question, "Which is the more inspiring, sunrise or sunset?" and maybe respond to hongfan, "You all have religious experiences, I wish Bellamarie heard my question on the beach. I am really curious, and I am thinking I will look around to find a synagogue and go there."

I've only experienced two sunsets and three sunrises.  The first sunset was with my hubby sitting on Clearwater beach in Florida while on vacation.  As the sun met the water line of the Gulf of Mexico, I seriously could not believe my eyes.  It made me ponder about when the day is done, have I lived it to the max, or have I squandered it without a care.  Now, my first sunrise was at Manitou Beach in Michigan.  I set my alarm clock, got up, went out to the balcony of my friend Marilyn's enormous lake house, sat in a very old white wicker rocker with beautiful comfy floral cushions, and waited.  I had no idea what I was looking for, I was expecting to see a big yellow ball of sun to appear.  Well, I can tell you as I noticed the very thin pink line come up over the waters of Lake Erie, I was in complete awe!  PINK!!!!  I never in my wildest dreams imagined to see the color pink, which began to turn a reddish color as it continued to come up.  Then to see the first round shape of the sun, was more exciting than I can even begin to describe.  I sat in total stillness, for some reason thinking if I moved I might miss something.  I took a million (well maybe not a million) but so many pics of each phase of the sunrise.  Oh, I still go back and look at those pics, and am still in total wonderment!  The sunrise by far is the most inspiring to me....... to witness a new day dawning made me think of God in all His Glory!  It was God promising an whole new day, slate wiped clean, a new day for new beginnings, a day that I could begin in His presence.  As a Christian there is nothing more reassuring to me feeling the presence of our Lord in that early morning sunrise, the briskness in the air, the water still, the ducks gathering their little ducklings in the lake, the sounds of the birds awakening, and then I look up to click my camera, and I capture the American flag waving slowly in the breeze with the sun shining in the background, glistening on the water.  All I could think of, experiencing this sunrise, was how we are so blessed to have a God who created all of this.  It was more than inspiring, it was a spiritual event for me.  Now before I move on, I have to tell you, my second sunset was at Maumee Bay last year on my birthday, while watching it set, I again went to click my camera, and realized in the clouds I had captured a cloud formation of our Lord holding a white dove breathing into it.  I showed my picture to Fr. Kidd our parish associate priest, when he visited my home last summer, and he was in total complete awe.  It's moments like these that confirms to me God exists, and shows Himself to us when he wants to.  I call it His bragging revelations!!

hongfan, I pray you get to experience a religious/spiritual experience some day.

side not: It was too cloudy to see a good sunset or sunrise this time at the Bay, but I had the best relaxing time as always!

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

ginny

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #517 on: July 28, 2017, 11:55:15 AM »
I'm still thinking about the points brought up here and  we'll move on to the Epilogue (which I dread, have already read some of it and the Afterword) and the last two small bits of the book (The Epilogue and the Afterword)  next Tuesday,  August 1.

I will be very sorry to see them all go. Very. And it's been a wonderful discussion. Am quite depressed this morning as am witnessing the mental decline of two people in my age group whom  I know and both, I think, expected to continue as our Center folks have done, and find vitality and life in any way they can individually, depending on each person's spirit and background.

So the message I'm getting this morning is, it's not a given, a long life, and sometimes it's not pleasant. Carpe diem! Seize the day  you might not have another one. The presence of the other Center folks helps a lot in our book,  but eventually as we've seen in Basha's case, they don't LIVE there, what of those who don't have "Centers," don't have the bolstering up and energizing  they would have had from being in the presence of others going thru similar experiences?

 In this case, perhaps the message I'm getting is expressed by one of them, Basha? when she says something like I hope they speak Yiddish, I don't know what I'd do if they didn't, and that sort of leads me back to the rest of the  title of the book: Number our Days:  A Triumph of Continuity and Culture Among Jewish Old People in an Urban Ghetto.

As none of us here, so far as I know, are particularly youthful,  I think that the message here, while  certainly about the people in the Center,  but maybe the message   might be more than about a particular culture, but about the overarching things we all can benefit from.  It may not "take a village," but it appears that the "village" of community, of like minded people (in her case those who speak Yiddish and who have a similar cultural background and experiences (the lighting of the candles on Fridays, etc.) provides more to people in their later years than I thought.

 That, if one is mentally and  physically up to it, that community  can extend to an online community, too,  even tho the person is  not physically present daily in person.  In the Center's case, It's almost an ideal situation:  they are free to come and go, to get companionship when they want it and not when they don't.

That explains why Shmuel kept going, I think. His wife did not understand, but I think perhaps he was energized by the arguing, something he missed and which was the same as speaking Yiddish, was to Basha. He needed that. He was  looking for a common thread and a link to the past, who he was.

That explains to me the real gift Kominsky gave them: they voted him out and in their own distress were allowed to be triumphant in a world which provided almost none of that.  It says next day the Center officers and board of directors decided to ask for Kominsky's resignation. I don't know who they are, they are not named. Anybody remember who the President was? Maybe one of them was in the film, the youngish man who had been there 14 years. That's a LOT of drama for a bunch of (as the film states) 80 and 90 year old folks.

What an extraordinary book  (and discussion) this has been.

Big storms here in the next couple of days, so I may disappear for a bit.

On Tuesday August 1 let's do our last farewell to the Center and the Folks, by reading the  Epilogue and the Afterword where we find out what happened to them.



 

so P bubble

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #518 on: July 28, 2017, 12:01:14 PM »
Hongfan - "Bubble, can I go to a synagogue if I am not a Jew or Judaism follower? Would this be seen intrusive to people in the synagogue?"

No problem at all.  Anyone can go in, can leave whenever they want.  Just be prepared that you will have to go in to the women section. unless it is a reformist synagogue.

Shabbat in a few more minutes, so I better go hurry to lit the candles and be ready.  More answer later...

bellamarie

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #519 on: July 28, 2017, 12:11:47 PM »
Now on to discuss chapter 7.....  Barb, I watched the video of the Center people and like everyone else am so excited to finally get to see the Jewish people in action!  I could not take my eyes off of them.  Just like the rest of you, I began making notes of who is who.   

hongfan,  I
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saw Hannah feeding the pigeons, Olga telling and retelling the story, Basha 1 talking about her sewing machine, Basha 2 moving away, Basha 3 at the Sabbath table saying the prayer, Abe the director, Jacob the leader and his dramatic ceremonial death.

Now inevitably I start to guess is Shmuel in the movie? Is the man living alone talking about his marriage the Shmuel in the book? Or Shmuel was already dead by then (he died one year earlier than Jacob)?

Yes!  Very perceptive you are!  Basha was indeed 1,2 and 3.  I kept going back and checking thinking I missed something, but even though our author has her in these three different parts of the story, they all fit in the video.  I too kept looking for my favorite Schmuel!  I looked for the most distinguished, possibly alone man on a bench expecting it to be him.  Or maybe engaging in a conversation with Myerhoff. 

Ginny, 
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It's so poignant, especially when you see the author saying but I will BE  an old woman, God bless her, dead within 6 years.  Doesn't she seem a warm caring person? I wish I had seen this before reading the book.

As always you find those little things I seem to overlook.  Yes, it is sad as you point out how the author at this time of the video is stating how she will one day be and old Jewish woman, only to die at such a young age.  Seeing Myerhoff in action, with all the Center people does give me an entire different feel for her as a person and as an author.  She is so happy with them, she engages with them as if they are her best friends or family members.  I truly love the fact we have this video to show us so much more of her and the people at the Center.

What really struck me watching the video is how wealthy all these people appear.  They have very nice clothes, hats, shoes, etc.  They are not at all what I had been visualizing as I read the book.  It's it true,  "A picture is worth a thousand words."  This video is almost as good as having Myerhoff come join our discussion.  I can see how she would get personally and emotionally attached to the point of becoming a part of their story.  I can even overlook her creating the conversation with Schmuel now, because how could she not want him to still be alive, still be there to enjoy their conversations, looking forward to his wisdom to share with her.  Have I gone soft from my little venture at the Bay, or has this video had a profound effect on me?  Which ever, or possibly both, I am so glad to have had both.

There are so many great posts I just don't know where to begin.  As Barb stated, 
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What wonderful comments on what is probably the most difficult chapter to discuss.

I did find this chapter a bit overwhelming for me, and thought oh gosh this will be difficult to discuss, but look at all of you!

Jonathan
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What an astonishing chapter. What it meant to come to America! A quantum leap for Jewish women in role recognition. From Bobbe to Balebosteh. For men, on the other hand, from Patriarch to Accessory.

You put it perfectly!  The saying goes, "Behind every successful man you will find a woman."  I wonder who ever came up with this.  But yes, it seems whether the woman is in the home, or out working, she is able to carrying on more tasks and raise the children, keep the fires burning, and manage to get them dressed for Mass.  :)  All kidding aside, it really made me think about how the woman's role changed when they came to America.  Made me ask, which was the best, I know here in America we tend to place so much more on the woman considering it takes her nine months to carry a child, go through labor, give birth, nurse the baby, and yes..... keep the job and house in tact.  I've often wondering why it is the woman has been placed in this situation in America?  I know God had His plan for the role of a man and woman, but it seems the the world decided to expect and want so much more for the woman.  No offense intended, women have always been strong enough to step up to any challenge presented to her, but...... with so much expected, how many women have had nervous break downs in trying to keep up with it all? 

Okay, need to take a break, I have Zak & Zoey back from the park needing this woman's time and attention. 
Ciao for now~

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden