Author Topic: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online  (Read 2043 times)

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The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« on: October 01, 2017, 12:26:25 PM »
Preparing for our Fall read, The Warden/Barchester Towers


Our Main Goal for Pre-discussion Week
October 2 - October 8


In order to catch Trollope's irony and humor, helpful is a look into the Anglican Church of England, that pillar of Victorian society.

Also, we are scoping out the
history, traditions, social and legal changes affecting the behavior of individuals within the power structure of the High Church.

To further appreciate Trollope's character's susceptibility to corruption, hypocrisy, and conservatism, we will foray a look at
mid-century Victorian society.

We will make this a wonderful week of sharing, as if time travelers, Trollope's Britain.

A few questions to help center us ---

1] Let's find some highlights about Trollope, who shows a reverence for the past and a diligent awareness of the present as nonstop change.
2] What is his experience publishing The Warden in 1855 & Barchester Towers in 1857

3] How old in 1855 was the Queen, the supreme governor of the Church of England
4] What was the line of authority within the High Church

5] What significant laws extending religions, were written during the early part of the nineteenth century
6] What was the Oxford Movement and how did the formation of the Methodists help define the Anglicans
7] What was the difference between the High Church and the Broad Church of England

8] How did change up-end the social and political Norman pyramid structure - the stuff of Dickens, Gaskell, Trollop
 
9] What were the published newspapers and magazines - what were their tone
10] What was an Almshouse and who started the first Almshouse

The schedule for our discussion starting on Monday, October 8:   
Oct. 8 - 14 ---- Chapter 1, Who will be the new Bishop? -  to - Chapter 9, The Stanhope Family - according to the book you are reading, 60 pages.
Oct. 15 - 21 --- Chapter 10, Mrs Proudie's Receptions - Commenced - to - Chapter 19, Barchester by Moonlight - 78 pages
Oct. 22 - 28 --- Chapter 20, Mr Arabin - to - Chapter 27, A Love Scene - 74 pages
Oct. 29 - Nov. 4 --- Chapter 28, Mr. Bold is entertained by Dr and Mrs Grantly at Plumstead - to - Chapter 35,  Miss Thorne's Fête Champêtre - 70 pages
Nov. 5 - 11 --- Chapter 36, Ullathorne Sports - Act I - to - Chapter 43, Mr and Mrs  Quiverful are made happy Mr. Slope is encouraged by the Press - 73 pages
Nov. 12 - 18 --- Chapter 44, Mrs Bold at Home - to - Chapter 53, Conclusion - 64 pages

Discussion Leader: Barb

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2017, 05:06:35 PM »
What fun... we have already started talking about the difference in churches in the Library - just love all it!

OK, let's have fun with this - it will help to realize the church is ONLY a platform for the differences in how people express themselves. The story is a story and not a reflection on our personal religious practices or beliefs.

There is so much change taking place during the mid-nineteenth century making it is easy to see the similarities to the change we are experiencing today. The issues are different but the change is breathtaking as it speeds into our life swirling us into a constant reactive state followed by constant decision making, just as the characters in Trollop's Barchester novels.

This story is about the mid-nineteenth century and not about today – Please, a reminder, this is not a political discussion - or a religious discussion.

Now that the boundaries are set, let's gab. There are many web sites that will get us closer to a feel for mid-nineteenth century Britain – Use the suggested question in the heading, share with us other bits you find and websites as well as, the comparisons to how other Victorian authors use the changes in their stories. Have you read Trollop in the past?

Get comfortable, settle in with your tea/coffee or your glass of wine, and rummage around with us finding the social and work changes also, the traditions that will help us enjoy the read.  Share with us things like, what was a typical Victorian breakfast or the recipe for a Jam and Cream Victorian Tea Cake to, what was the immigration policy in Britain and where was the Union Jack newly planted.

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
― Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2017, 11:53:48 AM »
I feel like a fish out of water here..... I began reading the first chapter of the book and was not yet able to get a feel for it.  I will continue on.  Thank you Barb for the clarity of what the discussion is and is not about.  I'm trying to put myself into the mind set of the Victorian era, maybe a little Earl Grey tea will help, along with changing my profile pic.  I love the Trollope quote so much so, I plan to use it on my profile.

Since question #10 seems the easiest I will tackle that one.
10] What was an Almshouse and who started the first Almshouse

England
Many almshouses are European Christian institutions though some are secular.[1] Alms are, in the Christian tradition, money or services donated to support the poor and indigent. Almshouses were established from the 10th century in Britain, to provide a place of residence for poor, old and distressed people. The first recorded almshouse was founded in York by King Athelstan; the oldest still in existence is the Hospital of St. Cross in Winchester, dating to about 1132. In the Middle Ages, the majority of European hospitals functioned as almshouses.
Many of the medieval almshouses in England were established with the aim of benefiting the soul of the founder or their family, and they usually incorporated a chapel. As a result, most were regarded as chantries and were dissolved during the Reformation, under an act of 1547. Almshouses generally have charitable status and aim to support the continued independence of their residents. There is an important delineation between almshouses and other forms of sheltered housing in that almshouse residents generally have no security of tenure, being solely dependent upon the goodwill of the administering trustees.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almshouse
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2017, 01:27:02 PM »
Wow Bellamarie look at this - the Hospital of St. Cross has a web site AND it says the Almshouse was featured in the TV version of Wolf Hall - loved Wolf Hall on PBS - can you even imagine living in a building that has been standing since 1132... amazing...

http://hospitalofstcross.co.uk/

This is a time when Abelard and Héloïse were exchanging love letters and letters to each other about their religious views - 1132 is way before Henry the VIII - to imagine a concern for the elderly, the sick and the poor that prompted the construction of buildings that far back in history boggles the mind. The famous Hôtel-Dieu de Beaune with its distinct roof pattern was not even thought of - it was built 300 years later in 1443

Trollop picked a good one choosing the Almshouse with that kind of historical tradition, showing the conservative nature of the church and yet, the Almshouse also shows the human side of care and kindness towards the poor and elderly so it appears to straddle both the maintenance of the ongoing traditions of the church as well as, the human side that shows good behavior.  Wow a noble bridge between the logical mind and the emotional heart.

CallieinOK

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2017, 04:57:07 PM »
X marks my spot.

PatH

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2017, 05:01:49 PM »
Bellamarie, you know more than you think about Victorian England.  Cranford was published just 2 years before Barchester Towers.

Thanks for the information about almshouses:
Quote
There is an important delineation between almshouses and other forms of sheltered housing in that almshouse residents generally have no security of tenure, being solely dependent upon the goodwill of the administering trustees.
I can imagine the jockeying for favor that went on.

The Hospital of St. Cross and its church are certainly beautiful, but if you think about those dwellings, they are going to be very dark and very cold (though no more so than other small dwellings of the time}.

youetb

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2017, 08:20:28 PM »
Barb,
I would like to join the group.  Is there a specific edition we should read.  I see many offerings on Amazon.  Thanks Nancy

PatH

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2017, 08:35:38 PM »
Welcome, Nancy.  I'll let Barb answer your question, but I think it's a question of whether you want commentary and background notes.  The text should be the same.  We're a pretty congenial bunch here; I hope you'll enjoy talking with us.

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2017, 09:17:00 PM »
looking forward to your posts Callie

Never thought Pat, but yes, I can see the jockeying for attention - seems all of life is a race as if there is not enough to go around from financial resources, to goods, to natural resources, to attention and love from parents, boss, kings, and the biggie the controller of the purse -

Great - Welcome youetb - look there has been a big mixup over the book we are reading - it appears we are doing Barchester Towers - when I ordered my book from Amazon I thought I ordered The Warden and arrived is Barchester Towers - the book we are reading has 53 chapters and that is the key - because it appears The Warden that is online free has only 21 chapters - there is a TV version that is quite good that shows both and they may be entwined - but safe to say I will put the link up for the 1st youtube section - the series showed on PBS and is in 7 sections - we really like to use our reading to discuss our books rather than a movie or TV movie but in this case with the mix-up (we advertised The Warden for weeks and then this huge mixup so everyone was on board with reading Barchester Towers) anyhow seeing that first youtube section will offer some background of how Reverend Harding and his youngest daughter fit into the story -

To get the book we are discussing the 2nd book in the series, Barchester Towers - I had ordered the Oxford Classic - but any edition should work - the reason I like the Oxford edition to a book is they are usually annotated.

Now if you are a fast reader and just want the facts of what happened reading The Warden this week will add to your  enjoyment however, Barchester Towers does stand alone - some editions that Amazon has available includes both these books in one - The 2nd book Barchester Towers does not go into how the Reverend Harding's younger daughter was married had a child and her husband died - it was him and his editor that brought to light the medieval mandate about the financing of the almshouse where Reverend Harding was the acting Chaplin. After facts were brought to light he chose to retire - we pick up with a new Bishop coming to replace the kind old Bishop who died. The stories have lots of irony, tongue and cheek, inconsistency of intent within the Church, power plays and big egos, played against the kindness and caring for others that is typical of some of the characters. 

 ;) all that just to say welcome - and any edition will work as long as there are the 53 chapters - here is the link to the Gutenberg ebooks editions of Barchester Towers http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3409 and here is the link to the Gutenberg ebooks edition of The Warden http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/619

Thanks Pat - yep, a congenial bunch and after this mixup for sure congenial - always a first time for something...

Jonathan

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2017, 10:59:29 PM »
Congratulations, Barb, on the splendid heading. Getting into the discussion is impossible without first having a few words with the owl. And I went back to her after I had considered the parameters you were setting for our read. How did the owl feel? Would we enfoy Trollope more if we knew something about Victorian England, or would reading Trollope  inform us about his contemporaries and the times.

Granted, it would be useful to know something about the officers of the Church of England. The bishops, and the vicars and rectors, the prebendaries and the precentors, the archdeacons and the chaplins. And of course the Wardens. The diicese? The parish? The See?

I read something recently which might be of interest in reading our book. It concerns Laurence Sterne, who lived a hundred years earlier. The Church was obviously a career opportunity. Allow me to quote:

'On completing his course at the university he was ordained a minister. He had no strong "calling" to a clerical life but just "sat down quietly in the lap of the church" and was soon, with the assistance of an infuential uncle,  installed in a number of livings near York. He held the vicarages of Sutton and Stillington, was a prebend of the cathedral and Commisary of the Peculiar Court of Pickering and Pocklington. As was the custom then, he employed a curate, finding diversions in cathedral politics, philandering and the company of a roistering set of blades who defiantly called themselves the "Demoniacks" and gathered to drink and revel at John Hall Stevenson's "Crazy Castle," near Saltburn-by-the-sea.' (Bergen Evans, introduction to The Life and Opinions of Tristram Shandy, Gentleman)

youetb

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2017, 12:12:31 AM »
Barb and Pat,

Perfect found the classic, already reading the Warden.  Appreciate your book guidance .Barchester Towers and
 53 Chapters it is.

Thank you for the warm welcome.
Nancy

Frybabe

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2017, 07:10:26 AM »
If I remember correctly, it was explained in Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice that since the first son of a noble inherited the estates, the following sons were most often encouraged to pursue a career in the church as an acceptable means for sustaining themselves.

PatH

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2017, 09:01:05 AM »
Yes, the following sons needed a source of income, and there were only a few professions that were regarded as respectable for a gentleman--the church was one, the army or navy (as officer) and I think certain branches of law.  You see good clergy in Austen, and also the ones who just do it for the money, have several "livings" and sublet them, splitting the income between the curate actually doing the work and themselves.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2017, 12:58:19 PM »
Frybabe there is such a different tone to the Jane Austin stories compared to Trollop isn't there - even the 'bad guys' are given respect in a Jane Austin novel where as all the pin pricks of sarcasm and almost slap stick comedy highlights the bad behavior of Trollop's 'bad guys' - maybe that is part of the difference Jane Austin's bad guys are not bumbling where as Trollop's bad guys are behaving not too much differently than if playing a drawing room comedy of manners.

Pat I remember first hearing from you some years ago explain what a 'Living' was - trying to remember the book discussion - it may have been a Jane Austin. Can you help - a few words I came across and hope you can explain - in The Warden we have Mr Harding as a precentor at Barchester - what is a precentor? He is also described as a minor canon which I am assuming means he is not among the hierarchy of the church but what does 'canon' mean in this phrase? Also, do you know why Episcopal is spelled Episcopi - it appears to be referring to a particular church. And finally, what is or are  'beadesmen'?

This link has much to offer not only about Victorian life but in particular about Trollop and his novels. A great site to spend time rummaging through.
 http://www.victorianweb.org/religion/denom1.html

And on this page of everything Trollop, each line or title is a link to information - a gold mine...!
http://victorianweb.org/authors/trollope/index.html

Jonathan

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2017, 03:33:27 PM »
I believe the precentor is the cathedral choir director. In The Warden Mr Harding is credited with providing the best choral music in all England.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2017, 03:37:31 PM »
Canterbury Cathedral

The Archbishop of Canterbury is the senior bishop and principal leader of the Church of England, the symbolic head of the worldwide Anglican Communion and the diocesan bishop of the Diocese of Canterbury.

The line which goes back more than 1400 years to Augustine of Canterbury, the "Apostle to the English", sent from Rome in the year 597.

Since the English Reformation, the Church of England has been a state church and the choice of Archbishop of Canterbury is legally that of the Crown; today, made by the Queen on the advice of the Prime Minister, who receives a shortlist of two names from an ad hoc committee, the Crown Nominations Commission.

1848 to 1862 John Bird Sumner was Archbishop of Canterbury, (annual income £15,000). Married Marianne Robertson, 1803 in Bath. His wife's maternal grandfather was Francis Lewis (1713-1803), a New York signer of the Declaration of Independence.

Matthew Parker, Archbishop of Canterbury 1559 - 1575. Remember Wolf Hall - He was one of the Cambridge scholars whom Thomas Wolsey wished to transplant to his newly-founded 'Cardinal College' at Oxford. Parker declined Wolsey's invitation. After Anne Boleyn's recognition as queen he was made her chaplain.

Parker was one of the primary architects of the Thirty-Nine Articles, the defining statements of Anglican doctrine. The Parker collection of early English manuscripts include: St. Augustine Gospels and Version A of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, part of his effort to demonstrate that the English Church was historically independent from Rome, creating one of the world's most important collections of ancient manuscripts.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2017, 03:54:51 PM »
aha - thanks Jonathan - perfect - a precentor is the cathedral choir director - and so we see Reverend Harding with his cello.

Jonathan

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2017, 08:50:21 PM »
Sorry, Pat. The question was directed to you.

PatH

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2017, 10:12:22 PM »
it was aimed at anyone who has an answer.  I have some partial answers, but I just got in and am too tired to write.  I'll answer tomorrow.

bellamarie

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2017, 10:36:02 AM »
Oh Pat thank you for reminding me of Cranford.  What a great book that was, and I so enjoyed reading it feeling as if I had plopped myself right down in Victorian England.  As a child I so loved having tea parties with my younger sister and all our dolls, so I will try to keep that spirit as I read Trollpe, although I have a feeling he is not nearly as gentle as Austen from what I am reading in the prior posts.

Quote
I believe the precentor is the cathedral choir director. In The Warden Mr Harding is credited with providing the best choral music in all England.

Jonathan, I am so glad you are with us to help decipher all the questions we have bumbling around in our heads.  I like simplicity, so thank you for a simple answer to who the precentor is.  I get lost when there is too much text written in posts, although at times my own posts can be wordy.

Welcome, youtb, pull yourself up a chair, choose your favorite English tea, and enjoy this book with us. We are indeed a congenial bunch, and so feel at ease say what ever comes to mind.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2017, 10:45:56 AM »
BeadesmenBedesman, or beadsman (Med. Eng. bede, prayer, from O. Eng. biddan, to pray; literally "a man of prayer"; and from Anglo Saxon "bed") was generally a pensioner or almsman whose duty it was to pray for his benefactor.

A Bedesman (or Bedeswoman) in Medieval times worked in this Christian occupation attached to the crown and churches in Scotland and England. In general the task was to pray for souls listed on a bede-roll (pictured) represented by small items on a string called "bedes" (i.e. "prayers"). Souls who wished to be prayed for, secured their listing by giving alms, donations, or gifts.[2] Or, if a departed member of a guild, the Chaplain would add them to the roll for prayer post-mortem. When, in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, the use of little perforated globes of bone, wood, or amber, threaded on a string, came into fashion for the purpose of counting the repetitions of the Our Father or Hail Mary, these objects themselves became known as bedes, later becoming known as "beads".[2]



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beadsman

As best as I can relate to his beads, is the Rosary us Catholics use for praying, as Our Lady of Fatima the Blessed Virgin Mother Mary said to pray, when she appeared 100 years ago, which we are celebrating this year.  Interesting, looking at this picture it does remind me of myself, saying my nightly Rosary in my bed as I fall off to sleep.  I tell my hubby, there are nights I must say the same bead five times because I dose off, wake up and begin it again...... I must confess, there are nights I don't make it through the entire Rosary, sleep takes over.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2017, 10:56:13 AM »
A Minor Canon is a member of staff on the establishment of a cathedral or a collegiate church. In some foundations the post may be known as Priest-vicar.

Minor Canons are clergy and take part in the daily services but are not part of the formal Chapter.[2] They are sometimes, but not exclusively, more junior clergy, often chosen for their singing ability, who have already served a curacy normally in a parish church.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_Canon


Okay, now that I am knee deep in reading all these posts and responding to them, I realize I have to go prepare my lesson plan for my CCD class tonight, so off I go.....
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2017, 11:24:56 AM »
OK, here's my attempt to answer some Church organizational questions.

A living is a position in the church such as rector, vicar, curate, along with the income attached to it.If you own the living, you have the power to appoint someone to the position, or fill it yourself.  The bishop of Barchester has the power to appoint some, but not all, of these livings in his diocese.  In Jane Austen, most of the livings seem to be owned by local important landowners, and be inherited like any income-producing property. If there was no younger son in need of the position, someone could be appointed to fill it.  Or the younger son could contract with a curate to do the work, and split the income with him.  A man could hold more than one living, fill them all with others, and live on his share without doing any of the work.

PatH

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2017, 12:28:23 PM »
Here's some Anglican Church organization, mostly taken from the introduction in my copy of Barchester Towers (a 1963 paperback, with a cover price of 60 cents).

The highest officials of the church are the bishops, topped by two archbishops, of Canterbury and York, with Canterbury being slightly more powerful.  The dioceses seem to coincide with shires, and each has its cathedral and bishop.  The bishops are appointed by the King, or in this case the Queen, which means they are really appointed by the Prime Minister, so they are actually political appointments.

The bishops appoint ministers to some, but not all, of the parishes in the diocese, and here, the bishop of Barchester appoints the Warden, or superintendent of Hiram's Hospital almshouse.

To be continued.

Mkaren557

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2017, 02:24:35 PM »
Just as Cranford tackled "the Woman Question" Barchester Towers.  As "progress" was changing the role for nineteenth century women so it was chinking away at the very foundation of the Church of England.  The Church of England was  the Established Church, which means the queen (more Parliament at this time) was the head of the Church and all the people were taxed (tithed) to support the church.  Enter the Industrial Revolution with created the new of the Upper Middle Class (factory owners, merchants, and others who grew very rich). Their wealth was beginning to equal that of the Aristocracy and they wanted to power that went with that wealth.  They embraced individualism and began to join and support the Methodist Church which was more liberal in worship (they sang non traditional hymns and rejected the Book of Common Prayer.)  Thus, Parliament was confronted with not only dissenters but those within the Church of England who wanted the Church to embrace the emotion and the spirit of joy they saw in the other denominations that were springing up.  Now things really get confusing as a group of clergy and scholars at Oxford began to react to the growing desire for change in the established Church and began to issue Tracts that rejected evangelism both in and outside the Church and eventually appealed to the Church to move back to its Catholic roots pre-Henry VIII.  All of these issues are discussed on the Victorian Web under religion: the Oxford Movement, the Catholic Emancipation Act and the ultimate disestablishment of the Church of England (no more universal tithing). In this novel Trollope deals with all these issues and more, but does so in a more entertaining and humerous way.  At least I think so.


 

PatH

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2017, 04:56:41 PM »
I'm going to need all the help I can get keeping the various religious movements straight.  Victorian Web, here I come.

Karen, I agree about the humor, though sometimes it can get rather dark.  He starts it off in the very first chapter--ironic situation that would be funny but it's sad, and he plays it for all it's worth.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2017, 12:26:27 AM »
Fabulous site Bellamarie about the Bedesman and the photo is wonderful - I just got lost in the site hitting one link after the other and am still shocked to learn so many words used today were from the Medieval -

The little chapels and side alters - that was fascinating - now it makes sense - I remember visiting many a large old church and not only were there many side alters, that at one time I even saw mass being said by a priest while the main mass was being said on the main alter - but more, I remember several that had boxes for offerings and since most of the side alters had a stand of votive candles I assumed it was the typical donation we made when we lighted candles but, I remember some having the offering box with no candles - it confused me but did not think too much more about it - now it makes sense - the offerings were supporting the owner of the side alter.

I knew we could depend on you Pat to fill us in on the hierarchy of the church.  I have to look it up again but there was another word for a 'Living' that may have had a slightly different arrangement - need to find it again and see if you know what it is all about. Seems to me there is something in The Warden about someone who has several 'Livings' - again, I need to find it. Great call reminding Bellamarie and all of us about our reading Cranford.

Thank you, thank you Karen to pick up on Cranford and then really do such a wonderful job for us of summarizing the enormous change to the approved and legal religious affiliations and their impact on the Anglican Church.

Vaguely I am remembering studying about Cardinal Newman when I was in High School - had no idea that the Oxford Movement was such a big deal and became so popular after a couple of hundred years of Catholics having to hide in attics and basements. This entire reconciliation between the two expressions of Christian Faith came full circle during Vatican II in the 1960s when the Anglican–Catholic dialogue entered historical communication through their ecumenical relations.

Last I read, priests from the Anglican Church, even though married can practice and be assigned as parish clergy in Catholic Churches as Catholic Priests can request and be assigned to an Anglican Church which allows them to no longer keep the vow of Chastity.

I read today that Trollop lived for 10 years in Ireland while working for the Postal Service - I had no idea that he lived anyplace but in Britain - he even lived for a few years in Australia where one of his sons set up business that failed and Trollop had to go back to rescue him.  I need to look again, something about the Irish benefiting and leading to Home Rule when the 1823 Catholic Emancipation was passed and that political change some how affected the association the Anglo Irish had with the Anglican Church.

And this direct from the Victorian Web site explains better than anything how the circumstances brought about the characterizations of the Anglican (High Church) clergy...

Quote
At the time of the birth of the Methodist movement in the late eighteenth century, there were 13,500 Anglican priests in England, but only 11,700 livings (fixed incomes derived from Church lands and tithes and attached to a particular parish) to support them, and many of the livings paid so poorly that many priests held more than one.

Some priests, too, thanks to political and social influence, controlled more than one of the wealthy livings.

In addition, the Church was far too dependent upon political and economic interests to reform itself: half of all livings were granted by landowners, and the government had the right to appoint all bishops, a number of prebends, and hundreds of livings, so that it is not exaggerating too much to say that the Church became, to a considerable degree, the preserve of the younger sons of members of the aristocracy who had little interest in religion and less interest in the growing numbers of urban poor.

There were, in consequence, over 6,000 Anglican parishes with no priests at all, and it was into this void that the Methodist evangelicals stepped.

And also Karen, you picked up on the Victorian Woman - we really see that played out when, as a wealthy widow, Reverend Harding's younger daughter is far more independent than most women, who when widowed not only return to their Father's house, who controls her but, were relegated to the lonely and isolating lowest level of the social hierarchy. The status of the wife was through the husband's work, wealth and status which we see played out by the Reverend Harding's eldest daughter, who is married to the Archdeacon.  What a wonderful contrast in the same family with two sisters that Trollop feature for us.

Aha there it is Pat do you know what is a prebend as the quote from above, "a number of prebends" Hopefully someone here knows.

I am so excited - one of my grands is coming down from Lubbock for the weekend and will stay with me tomorrow night - he is attending ACL (Austin City Limits) a big deal annual music festival https://www.aclfestival.com/

bellamarie

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2017, 11:34:52 AM »
I took the time this morning to watch this video.  I am glad I did, because now I have a better understanding of the characters and it gave me such a good sense of the humor in the book.  I think I will watch more of the videos available to help me better associate with this story.  I was having a difficult time getting into the first chapters of Barchester Towers, and now I feel like I am ready to delve in.  I do think we may be depicting and exploring much deeper into things than possibly necessary, and it could prevent us from enjoying the actual story..... but then again, this is what we tend to do!! 

https://youtu.be/z5c9zNiDVJg
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2017, 12:02:59 PM »
When I first read Barchester Towers, sometime in the 1960s, I only knew a little of the background we're discussing now, and I enjoyed the book a lot.  Anyone who doesn't want to be bothered with all this can still have fun with the book.  But if you know it, you do get more of the fine points of what's going on.

PatH

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2017, 12:33:25 PM »
Church organization continued:

Taking care of a cathedral and its affairs, running a diocese, and looking out for all the individual parishes takes a lot of manpower, and the bishop only has partial control.  The archdeacon is responsible for the church property in his territory, including the bishop's palace.  The governing body of the cathedral is the chapter, headed by the dean.  Deans are appointed by the Crown, hence are political appointments.  The chapter is made up of canons.  The canon in residence seems to control details like who preaches the sermons.  One canon has charge of the music; he is called the precentor.  Other clergy of the cathedral staff include prebendaries, minor canons, a vicar-choral, and the chancellor, who is the chief legal officer of the diocese.  The verger takes care of the building.

The bishop's domestic chaplain acts as a sort of private secretary.  Bishops become members of the House of Lords, so are addressed as "My lord".

The close is the cathedral precinct, and includes some housing for clergy, but the bishop's palace is outside of it.

That leaves a lot of unanswered questions, but it's what I could get by boiling down my introduction.

mabel1015j

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2017, 12:53:27 PM »
Hi everyone!
Thanks for the Gutenberg link Barb, I’ve been really busy and haven’t even checked the library for a copy of the book, so getting it on line is a great help.

I don’t know how much of the book I’ll get into, but I’m fascinated by the lnks and comments you’ve already given about English history. I have a limited knowledge of it other than Henry II and Eleanor of Acquataine and Henry VIII and his wives and the reformation. I’ve mentioned before on SL that my ancestory includes 4 Scots-Irish Presbyterian brothers who escaped the religious battles to come to Pennsylvania in the early 18th century where they started 3 Presbyterian churches in central Pa. I’ll be curious to learn more about those battles and differences, and I love the Victorian period, so I’m looking forward to your discussion.

And oh yeah, to add further interest for me, I grew up in the Methodist Church and am now a member of a “progressive Baptist Church” - a term which my life experience until my 30s would have seemed an oxymoran........I knew about only “southern Baptists” or Baptists as conservatives. Although, the Baptist Church seems to be the least hierarchial of all those mentioned. Complicated! Complicated.

It might be interesting that the new movie about Queen Victoria starring Judy Dench will soon be out. It looks like it could be an Oscar win for her.

Welcome Nancy. If you like indepth, thoughtful discussions about books, you will enjoy this site.

Jean

bellamarie

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2017, 10:24:29 PM »
Jean,  I just saw previews of the movie Queen Victoria that will be coming out.  I really want to see it.

PatH., Thank you so much for giving us the pecking order of the different positions held in the church.  Nowadays, we are lucky to have one Pastor and a Deacon in our church.  We had to share our Bishop with Cleveland for a few months until a new one could be appointed.  Poor Bishop Thomas had to be wore out just with the traveling it entailed.

Barb, Interesting facts you are posting.  I can see why we have separation of church & government, after all the problems England had to deal with having their government so involved.  I'm really enjoying the videos on Youtube.  It's so much easier to enjoy a character when you can put a face to it.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2017, 12:18:59 AM »
So glad Bellamarie the videos are bringing the characters alive for you - the first two are following The Warden while the remaining are following Barchester Towers - the actors in the series are Britian's best aren't they.

Ah Pat - you did it! You did it! - What a group of job titles - the verger is a new one on me, never heard the expression.

Great to see you Jean - hope you enjoy the read - and glad the Gutenberg works for you - In fact it was because of your post saying you were fascinated with the links and comments that gave me an opportunity to laugh out-loud - I went back to the beginning and reviewed as if I was joining the group and there it was - I knew I read it somewhere - I was asking Pat what was a prebend having read the word somewhere but could not remember where - and there it was, in one of Jonathan's first posts -

Now that we have looked into so much I must say Jonathan you quote packs so much more meaning.

Included in Pat's litany of titles there it is, Other clergy of the cathedral staff include prebendaries...

Happened on this bit of news that may have been the stimulus for this book - would have taken place just before Trollop wrote The Warden. "The first Oxford Movement church and scene of riots...St Barnabas Street, Pimlico...Church was consecrated on St Barnabas' Day amid considerable controversy caused by accusations of 'Popery in Pimlico'."
http://www.shadyoldlady.com/location.php?loc=2083

A few more tidbits that I found "The Church of England was the official church, established by law, which required, among other things, that everyone pay tithings to it even though they attended some other church. All wills, even for dissenters, had to be probated through the Church of England. This Church of England, or Anglican Church, also had a number of other privileges in law that other churches lacked, such as its bishops' being automatically members of the House of Lords.

You are so right Bellamarie - the mix of religion with the state is pervasive and very different than our outlook here in the states. Although, I was reading a few years ago in a Unitarian history how in the early days of this nation, every one paid a tax that supported the various religious churches and universities. Remember Harvard and Yale (originally Puritan) and Princeton (originally Presbyterian) were founded principally for the teaching and study of theology. It was when the Catholics moved into Maryland that there was major rebellion - Tax payers did not want tax money supporting the Catholics - that was the beginning of separation between Church and State in the US.

More tidbits... It seems long before Trollope wrote The Warden the Church was not only unpopular with many people, but Church and political leaders had been under strong attacks. By the time of the Barchester novels, this enmity against the Church was entering its second generation.

"It was difficult holding Confirmation classes together as candidates heard their spiritual instructors abused daily." 

Economics was part of the dispute - Tradesmen and farmers were in competition with a Church that required more attendance and greater alms giving and the Market closed for Church Festivals where goods were sold that profited the Church and the observation of fasts during Lent and Advent were difficult for farmers. The Oxford movement was more lenient as was the Anglican Broad Church and the Anglican Low Church.
https://books.google.com/books/content?id=-OAmDAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&img



youetb

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2017, 12:47:37 AM »
Hello to all.  The youtube  film posted by Bellemarie is very helpful.  I was beginning to get bogged down with the characters.
I started with The Warden and enjoyed meeting up with the bedesmen living at the alms house.  The 12 bedesmen/ maybe 12 apostles. 
I cant imagine that concept in modern day but I think it is brilliant.
And a big thank you for the clergy title clarification...so much to take in

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2017, 01:31:18 AM »
Wheee another night owl - Yes Nancy, the youtube of the 1982 PBS series is a winner isn't it - they did a good job of capturing each character - I love Alan Rickman as Slope - they are all wonderful but he is a favorite.

Love it - 12 bedesmen / 12 apostles

OK more bits - the issue of the Broad Church the Low Church and the High Church - as I recall in the first chapters of The Warden there is a comment something about "not the Broad Church"

High Church essentially leaned toward Roman Catholic rites and was non-evangelical, and Low Church was both evangelical and more bare-bones Protestant. The High-Low Church division enters more into Barchester Towers than The Warden. After the death of Bishop Grantly, the contest both to become the new bishop and to dominate the diocese following the new bishop's election is between the Archdeacon Grantly High-church group and the Proudie/Slope Low-church group.

In real life during Trollope's time, some High-church Anglican dignitaries convert over to Roman Catholicism, with Newman and Manning becoming cardinals in that church.

High Church as a term starts being used in the 17th century, to describe people, who wanted to go on being as Catholic as possible, preserving many of the pre-Reformation traditions, stressing the sacraments and the authority of bishops - the Oxford Movement is extremely High Church. Newman published tracts to prove that the 39 Articles are compatible with Catholic theology and was very unpopular with the Evangelicals.

Low Church emphasis preaching, the centrality of the Bible and the importance of the Reformation.

The Broad Church attempts to avoid the fights between both these movements. Bishops weren't actually very keen on the Oxford Movement and they didn't like Biblical literalism either. They preferred to emphasis the comprehensiveness of the national Church of England, and to consider the results of contemporary scientific and historical study.

High Church, Broad Church, and Low Church — It is an Anglican commonplace to say that authority in the church has three sources: Scripture, Reason, and Tradition. In general, the Low churchman and Evangelical tend to put more emphasis on Scripture, the Broad churchman and Liberal on reason, and the High churchman and Anglo-catholic on tradition

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2017, 01:52:12 AM »
Ha - nothing simple about Christianity - one group scooting across here and other group starting up there and more groups each focusing on one aspect of the many...

I do not know about y'all but I sure have a better understanding of the Church of England / Anglican Church - now :D really fun or maybe a nightmare would be to further all this with how each was changed and switched and became specific when Presbyterians, Anglicans and Methodists took on a whole new face coming to America with our totally different political and Constitutional structure.  Boggles the mind...

OK thought - we really need to use this opportunity to get to know Trollop - once we get into the story it will take over.

Mkaren557

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2017, 12:36:28 PM »
The terms conservative and liberal keep coming up in the novel.  They do not mean the same thing that the terms today mean.  I thought this explanation might be helpful as background.

The words and concepts of Conservatism and Liberalism have changed in meaning since the nineteenth century.  Modern conservatives want less government intervention in their lives, which is the exact opposite of what it meant to be a conservative in the nineteenth century.  Another term for conservatism in this century is monarchism, as conservatives desired social stability through monarchical rule.  Conservatives believed in tradition and hierarchy to govern over a nation.  There were three main essential anchors of social harmony: Monarchy, Aristocracy and Church.  They did not believe that all men were created equal, and that some men were in fact born greater than others.  A nation has to have a wide reach into the lives of its citizens and that each nation was dedicated to increasing the power of the nation.
Liberals took another approach to the conservative thought of government intervention in its citizens’ lives.  They believed that each individuals had inherent rights and every citizen should be able to work their way up in the social class of the nation.  Their goal was complete economic, personal and political freedom.  Liberals were made up of primarily the middle class.  While the liberals sound like the good guys in the nineteenth century, it is important to keep in mind that they did not believe in giving power to women, the poor nor the uneducated.  Conservatism vs Liberalism was a battle between monarchs and the middle class to gain power.

Western CivilizationII Guides

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #37 on: October 06, 2017, 02:42:13 PM »
Thanks Karen - in a nutshell it appears we have Conservatives wanting stability through Tradition and Liberals wanting individualism that also allows movement in the class structure. Sure fits our High Church and Low Church doesn't it...

Look here - anyone up for a walking tour... the Trollope Trail in Ireland... the website shows the map of the trail.
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/b2/fd/9d/b2fd9dd95a61887e2a17a1b9b3872d6f.jpg

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2017, 03:04:56 PM »
I'm planning to bake over the weekend and have my tea time sandwich fillings and cakes ready to enjoy while reading.

Haha found this - Perfect  ;) 


BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2017, 03:37:55 PM »
Victorian Tea Cake
By: The Canadian Living Test Kitchen
Ingredients:
    1/2 cup unsalted butter softened
    1 cup granulated sugar
    2 eggs at room temperature
    1/2 teaspoon vanilla
    1 3/4 cup sifted cake-and-pastry flour
    1 1/2 teaspoon baking powder
    1 pinch salt
    1/2 cup milk
    icing sugar

Filling :
    2/3 cups whipping cream
    1/2 cup strawberry jam

Grease and flour 8- or 9-inch (1.2 or 1.5 L) round metal cake pan; line bottom with parchment paper. Set aside.

In large bowl, beat butter until light and pale, about 2 minutes. Beat in sugar, 3 tbsp (45 mL) at a time, beating for 30 seconds after each addition, about 2 minutes. Beat in eggs, 1 at a time, beating well after each. Beat in vanilla.

In separate bowl, whisk together flour, baking powder and salt; sift into butter mixture alternately with milk, making 3 additions of dry ingredients and 2 of milk. Scrape into prepared pan.

Bake in 350 F (180 C) oven until cake tester inserted in center comes out clean, 30 to 35 minutes. Let cool in pan on rack for 10 minutes. Turn out onto rack; peel off paper. Let cool.

Filling: In bowl, whip cream. Invert cake onto platter. Using long serrated knife, cut in half horizontally. Spread with jam; top with cream. Replace top of cake. Sift icing sugar over top.