The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online

[BarbStAubrey]

Welcome to our Fall read,
Trollop's, Barchester Towers

Third Week, October 23 - October 29 Discussing, Chapter 20 - to - Chapter 27 Barchester is an ancient but imaginary twenty-ninth dioceses to the medieval parochial and cathedral system of the Anglican Church in Britain. Central to the Victorian characters who occupy this factitious community is social conflict; both the trivial and the important are presented with equal respect and noble intent.  "— I never saw anything like you clergymen,' said Eleanor; 'you are always thinking of fighting each other.' 'Either that,' said he, 'or else supporting each other. The pity is that we cannot do the one without the other...' 'Wars about trifles,' said he, 'are always bitter, especially among neighbors. When the differences are great, and the parties comparative strangers, men quarrel with courtesy. What combatants are ever so eager as two brothers?'

A few questions to help pull us in ---

1] What was your impression of Mr. Arabin immediately after reading Chapter 20, Mr Arabin.

2] How do you see Mr. Arabin fitting in with the gaiety of the Stanhope Family that Eleanore prefers. 

3] Which Quotes from books and Author references did you catch reading these chapters.

4] What impression was Trollop making by introducing Mrs. Thorne and Miss Thorne using references to many books and authors?  What about these two women is similar to Trollop's mother?

5] Who was Zeno - What philosophy was he the founder?

6] What was Slope's error with Mrs. Proudie? 
 
7] And the Love Scene - Signora Neroni inflames Slope's fantasy of love but has he realized his war is between the church, as his source of power and his passion to have as his the Signora?

The schedule for our discussion     Oct. 8 - 14 ---- Chapter 1, Who will be the new Bishop? -  to - Chapter 9, The Stanhope Family Oct. 15 - 21 --- Chapter 10, Mrs Proudie's Receptions - Commenced - to - Chapter 19, Barchester by Moonlight Oct. 22 - 28 --- Chapter 20, Mr Arabin - to - Chapter 27, A Love Scene Oct. 29 - Nov. 4 --- Chapter 28, Mr. Bold is entertained by Dr and Mrs Grantly at Plumstead - to - Chapter 39,  The Lookalofts and the Greenacres Nov. 5 - 11 --- Chapter 40, Ullathorne Sports - Act II - to - Chapter 53, Conclusion -

Discussion Leader: Barb

[bellamarie]

I'm not so sure if I like Bertie's carefree attitude in life, running up bills he can't pay for himself.  I thought I liked his silliness, but now, I think him to be a careless man, who decides marrying Eleanor will be the answer to him not being more responsible, in finding himself a job.  Fun and games is always enjoyable, but at some point in life you do have to be serious and support your own self.

Isn't it funny how I myself, am finding as I go along, I change my mind about the characters? 

Barb, in comparing Trollope to Dickens, I would agree, that Trollope provides humor, even with tackling a serious topic as the church of England's changing times.  Dickens from my experience in reading him, has been a bit dry and drab.  A Christmas Carol which is a known classic, is not at all a favorite of mine, if anything, I find it extremely uncharitable, and scary for children to read or watch.  Yes, I suppose the moral of the story is to be a giving and kinder person, but for me, I just didn't care for it.  Ironically, my hubby has been collecting Dept. 56 The Heritage Collection Dicken's Village for over thirty years.  My grandson Zak is mesmerized with it, and it's a MUST, I do not put it out for Christmas until he is here to help.

Jonathan,  What a disagreeable fellow, this Mr Slope. That's partly the author's own doing. He can't stand Mr. Slope.

The author has made it quite clear he does not like Mr. Slope, and is hoping the readers will not as well.  But then we read Ch. 20 and the author has nothing but extreme liking, and praise for the Rev. Francis Arabin.  An entire chapter devoted to Arabin. The very opening of this chapter makes it clear the author intends the reader to not only like Arabin as much as he does himself, but he intends us to see him of a man of royalty, character, esteem, and any other praising adjective you may conjecture.  Trollope himself, is fearful he will not do Rev. Francis Arbin justice, in even attempting to describe him to the reader: 

The Rev. Francis Arabin, fellow of Lazarus, late professor of poetry at Oxford, and present vicar of St. Ewold, in the diocese of Barchester, must now be introduced personally to the reader.  He is worthy of a new volume, and as he will fill a conspicuous place in it, it is desirable that he should be made to stand before the reader's by the aid of such portraiture as the author is able to produce.

It is to be regretted that no mental mithod of daguerreotype or photography has yet been discovered by which the characters of men can be reduced to writing and put into grammatical language with an unerring precision of truthful description.  How often does the novelist feel, ay, and the historian also and the biographer, that he has conceived within his mind and accurately depicted on the tablet of is brain the full character and personage of a man, and that nevertheless, when he flies to pen and ink to perpetuate the portrait, his words forsake, elude, disappoint, and play the deuce with him, till at the end of a dozen pages the man described has no more resemblance to the man conceived than the sign-board at the corner of the street has to the Duke of Cambridge.

And ye such mechanical descriptive skill would hardly give more satisfaction to the reader than the skill of the photographer does to the anxious mother desirous to possess an absolute duplicate of her beloved child.  The likeness is indeed true, but it is a dull, dead, unfeeling, inauspicious likeness.  The face is indeed there, and those looking at it will know at once whose image it is, but the owner of the face will not be proud of the resemblance.

There is no royal road to learning, no short cut to the acquirement of any valuable are.  Lt photographers and daguerreotypes do what they will, and improve as they may with further skill on that which skill has already done, the will never achieve a portrait of the human face divine.  Let biographers, novelists, and the rest of us groan as we may under the burdens which we so often feel too heavy for our shoulder; we must either bear them up like men, or own ourselves too weak for the work we have undertaken.  There is no way of writing, well and also of writing easily.

Labor omnia vincit improbus.  Such should be the chosen motto of every labourer, and it may be that labour, if adequately enduring, may suffice at last to produce even some not untrue resemblance of the Rev. Francis Arabin.

Oh my!!!  It almost make me want to dislike the man before meeting him, if only because our author intends me to swoon over him as much as he does.  Well, only time will tell, I am a woman/reader of my own judgement and mind.

[Jonathan]

'It reminds me of Alice in Wonderland.'

'Eleanor is so unaware and as innocent as her baby.'

'Trollop's stories have wit where as Dickens' stories have far more drama.'

Very interesting perceptions, Barb. We are into a fascinating book by an unusual writer. And still popular. I was at a huge college book sale on Saturday. I soon spotted the fine hardcover, illustrated Barchester Towers and wondered if I should replace my cheap, falling-apart paperback. To my surprise it was priced higher than everything else. An hour later, when I got back to it, it was gone. So I settled for Queen Anne: The Politics of Passion, by Anne Somerset, (2013) at half the price.

Who's going to get Eleanor? What a magical walk around moonlit Barchester. Or was it a good walk spoiled by these dubious characters? Am I right in assuming Bertie and Slope, together, took Eleanor home? Enter Mr Arabin. And the author admits to being baffled by the difficulty of writing a true picture of this new, sterling character. An honest author, if there ever was one. And looking for a wife.

[Jonathan]

Should I be disappointed? I was promised a war, but the book is all about love, or is it money?

[Jonathan]

What a wonderful post, Bellamarie.

[BarbStAubrey]

Great post Bellamarie - and like you, not only am I wary about liking Arabin but frankly, from reading the chapter describing him, he seems a bore - nice but a bore - kind but a bore - I can see during security conscious times when folks are hauled off to prison for their debts and the focus is on differences over the religious expression among this group he probably is the sterling character that Trollop is describing - but so upstanding I think if you touch him he may squish like a comforter which is nice but little passion. I get the picture that even Signora Neroni could not tap, much less find the passion button to Reverend Francis Arabin. 

I guess why I like Bertie is he knows his faults and does not hide them behind a veneer - the only one he manipulates is his father - what that is all about would probably be another book - as to creditors, they are his paper trail of overspending that links back to his father - a cry for attention?!? He is not like Slope who does not even know himself and plays everyone wanting importance and yet, wanting his view of being Anglican to be shared by all so that his Sunday homily can be to scold the parishioners; which suggests, that is how he would in time treat his wife and for sure his future children - Yep, Trollop knew how to create an oily manipulative character - I wonder who in Trollop's life was similar to get such a great picture of Slope.

Neither Bertie or Slope are good marriage partners for any woman much less our Eleanor who dislikes the controversy between clerics and for sure shows her temperament to be as her father, Reverend Hardy who is not a combative man.

I thought it interesting how Reverend Arabin justifies the quibbling between clerics and likens their disagreements with other professionals who disagree in order to grow and learn. Another way of looking at "off with their heads" Archdeacon Gravely. 

"Should I be disappointed? I was promised a war, but the book is all about love, or is it money?"  And Jonathan what war is NOT about money??? with only a few about love... as the saying goes - follow the money trail which is common to all war where as, we like to remember the ancient Greek war about love - Helen, whose face launched a thousand ships or Sita, who sprang from a furrow when her father King Janaka was ploughing his field or another, the war over Princess Bilqees Bhaghi, who was swept into the arms of the victor, Sultan Allauddin, who defeated the king of Sindh. Yep, Quora is a great resource... 

Looking at the church hierarchy the money trail appears to be with the power vested in the church by the crown and each promotion or accumulation of livings the clergyman enjoying an increased income or, their other source of increased income is by wooing the dowry of women. On face value looks like wooing the women but really, it is the wooing of the dowry with the women a byproduct.

Not too many years later we had American women heading to England to marry for status and the price was bailing out the old land rich 'titled' families that lived with their past wealth on display. Do not know of any clergy that wooed an American heiress - they seemed to set their goal on someone more approachable with, in comparison a more modest dowry.   

[BarbStAubrey]

Think about it - now that would be interesting - large transfers of American wealth went to England - how much of that wealth continues to draw from the American economy hmmm no wonder the two countries continue to be good friends - we may be tied at the hip in more ways than we realize.

[bellamarie]

Jonathan. If war is what you were looking for, I dare say you have it in these chapters as Mrs. Proudie, the Bishop and Mr. Slope stand at attention and mutiny breaks out!  Something tells me Slope may have one the battle, but Mrs. Proudie will win the war!

Then we have a war of lust, love, deceit, and desires, between Signora Neroni and Slope.  I love her statement to Slope....

“ You clergymen are cleverer than other men.”

Wow!  My head is swirling  after reading these chapters.  Taking a break, will need time to process all this.

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes, Bellamarie the first of this week's chapters are especially dense aren't they - we sure get a good idea of what Trollop values and he spouts off through his characters and then critiquing his characters and their 'doings' he takes another swipe letting us know what he thinks is important and what is much ado or further, what is down right awfulness - the literary references are a mile a minute or hahaha like a machine gun - rah tat tat tat tah - after the first 20 pages of this weeks read I was done in and like you, I too had to stop for a bit - really need to go back and re-read to catch all that I missed.

[bellamarie]

Can someone please explain to me what is the purpose of all the drivel about so many people and describing houses, room sizes, decor etc., in Chapter XXII.  I simply got bored stiff, and like my fast forward button on my remote control, I simply swiped forward.  The joys of reading a book on your iPad, with just a flick of your finger the paragraphs speed by.  I truly gave it a try, but honestly, did Trollope fall through a rabbit’s hole, like Alice, and begin dreaming, only to find himself lost in Wonderland?  Phew... I tried to go back today, but it was as exhausting as yesterday. 

[Jonathan]

Rewind, Bellamarie. You missed a lot of drama. Why did Mr Araban give up a brilliant career, to take on the lowly duties at St Ewold's Parsonage? Perhaps Barb can explain his dark night of the soul. And pity poor Mr Slope. Caught in a dilemma. He must decide between dazzle or a dowry. Is he really in love? With whom? With what? How interesting. A round table is too 'democratic'. Even a square one won't do. It must have a head. For 'business' meetings?

'Done in after 20 pages.' Anyone reading this book deserves sympathy. The author, himself, admits in his autobiography that his publisher advised him to cut the book by a third. He refused to cut even the smallest detail. And he was right. Once the reader gets caught up in the story.... Not 'phew', but 'wow'!!! Like the lady said: 'This guy's dynamite!'

You're right, Bellamarie. Let's look for the purpose.

[bellamarie]

Jonathan,  I have NO pity what so ever for Mr. Slope.  What a cad!!  How dare him court the idea of marrying Eleanor for her money, while thinking He could continue to carry on with Senora Neroni on her couch.  I say Hooray for her for calling Slope out for the fraud he is.  Now let Eleanor throw him out as well.  Imagine the ruined reputation dear ole Rev. Slope will earn should this all get out.  He just may have to pack his bags and leave town, with shame, if the Bishop doesn’t throw him out on his cheating head.  Trust me, I did not miss all that drama, I only skimmed over Chapter XXII, dealing with all the descriptions of house decor.  Ugh!!! 

Maybe I should have taken this by the spoonful, rather than by the cupful.  Slow and steady, rather than fast and furious. 

[BarbStAubrey]

Ok I was confused Bellamarie about the 'rooms' you were referring in chapter XXII that you were skipping through - For me I was reading this dense chapter as filled with one reference to a piece of literature after another, used by Trollop, as I see it, to let us know of the deep knowledge and scholarship of the Thornes...

The many, many allusions appear to be so that the reader understands the Thornes deep roots in Historical and Literary tradition as well as, the tradition of the Anglican church -

We start off the first sentence referring to the Thirty-nine Articles and Arabin admitting himself to the benefice in the Church of England by reading publicly the Thirty-nine Articles and the Declaration of Assent.  What could be more towering. 
Declaration of Assent
Thirty-nine Articles

On the same page he references to Henry Fielding's Tom Jones with Squire Western, who is the bad-tempered, fox-hunting, hard-drinking father of Sophia Western in Tom Jones. Here is a synopsis of Tom Jones with a Character list. http://www.christianregency.com/Research/PoemsAndNovels/The%20History%20of%20Tom%20Jones-Summary.pdf

He then references someone I had never heard of - Montaigne and Burton - Michel de Montaigne is a French essayist whose Essays were first translated into English in 1603 and Robert Burton author of The Anatomy of Melancholy first published in 1621. https://www.gutenberg.org/files/3600/3600-h/3600-h.htm
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/10800/10800-h/10800-h.htm

Then he names the well known journals of the day, the Idler...

And finishing just that page he mentions Edinburghs and Quarterlies - the Whig Edinburgh Review and the Tory Quarterly Review. 

Next he references Cedric the Saxon the father of Ivanhoe in Walter Scott's novel - Cedric is determined to restore the Saxon kings to the throne of England. http://www.walterscott.lib.ed.ac.uk/works/novels/ivanhoe.html

Trollop throws in Ealfried which is not an Anglo-Saxon name but his way of being satirical. And so, if we had the literary education of Victorian Britain we would know all this - although, reading Ivanhoe may no longer be required and I am old but not that old, for us it was required reading fist year high school along with The Song of Roland. 

Then he mentions Sophocles, followed by another set of names new to me, Fitzgeralds and De Burghs - French names therefore, Norman decent making affectionate fun contrasting the indigenous, freedom-loving Saxons with the Norman invaders in terms of Saxon gentry and Norman aristocrats.

He continues with Howards and Lowthers...Talbots - the Howards are a noble and ancient family, claiming decent from Hereward the Wake the 11th century leader resisting the Normans and the Lowthers are a powerful gentry family raised to peerage in 1696 and the Talbots were the Norman earls of Shrewsbury form early 15th c. 

inchor in Greek Mythology is a golden ethereal fluid that flowed like blood in the veins of the gods.

These references go on and on through this entire chapter - it takes forever to read the chapter just looking up the references that today are not at our finger tips.

My thought is this chapter is an homage to Trollop's mother who was an author and would know all these references a he does. In the story I think Trollop is showing us those who live in this grand house, Ullathorne to be above the cut among the nobles living in these grand Country Houses as they were called. Think Downton Abby...

To add to all this Trollop lived for a time in Australia and a William not Wilfred but, William Bernard Ullathorne, (born May 7, 1806, Pocklington, Yorkshire, Eng.—died March 21, 1889, Oscott, Warwickshire), is a Roman Catholic missionary to Australia and first bishop of Birmingham, Eng. He was influential in securing the final abolition (1857) of the British system of transporting convicts to Australia.

Suggests to me that Trollop is tying the Thornes to the High Church with maybe close ties to Newman and the Oxford movement. There is another book by Trollop entitled, Doctor Thorne so the Thorne story is far more than what we read in Barchester Towers.

This chapter alone is so full and dense that to read even excerpts of all the references would take weeks - I sure have a reading list as a result...

[BarbStAubrey]

Jonathan it will take me more time to fathom Arabin - I do not cotton to him and so it is more difficult to give him the attention he needs - I have a gut feeling though it would be wise to get into his shoes in order to enjoy the remainder of the story. No more Sunday afternoon stroll or easy characterization into a PBS movie is the reading of Barchester Towers. These two chapters, XXI and XXII are full. sheesh

[BarbStAubrey]

P.S. just dawned on me Bellamarie Chapter XXII is describing the big country house in the 6th video series of the Barchester Chronicles where the magnificent garden party takes place based on the medieval fair and the owners of the house, the Thorne's.  What can be done in pictures take words to set the scene and the movie instead of going into a reference to all the book simply summed it up by saying the garden party was based on the medieval.

[bellamarie]

Oh Barb, I knew you would come through for us!  Phew.... just reading your post started to dizzy my head again.  I realized early on Tollope's intent to familiarize us with the grandness of "The Thornes of Ullathorne, but he was showing off a bit himself, with all the book titles and such.  Interesting, the point you make of his mother being an author, so this could be for her benefit.  Now all us readers who know little about Trollope, nor have read any of his books before now, would wonder why on earth did he carry on like this.  Thank you so much for the clarity.  I'll have to go back and watch the video to really appreciate these words in motion, and seeing with my own eyes, the grandness of the house. I admit to not watching the video in full as yet.  I have a feeling in the movie all these book titles and descriptions are not mentioned, because as they say.... A picture is worth a thousand words.  Downton Abbey indeed!  Oh how I miss that show.

My verdict is still out on Arabin, but I daresay the author doth protest too much, as to Eleanor NOT being in love. 

Chapter XXIV our author is determined to convince the reader, Eleanor is not in love with anyone:

"Twas thus he (Arabin) spoke of signora, coming home in the archdeacon's carriage, and Eleanor by no means liked to hear the praise.

It was unfair that she had herself spent a very pleasant evening with Bertie Stanhope, who had taken her down to dinner and had not left her side for one moment after the gentlemen came out of the dining-room.  It was unfair that she should amuse herself with Bertie and yet begrudge her new friend his license of amusing himself with Bertie's sister.  And yet she did so.  She was half-angry with him in the carriage and said something about meretricious manners.  Mr. Arabin did not understand the ways of women very well, or else he might have flattered himself that Eleanor was in love with him.

But Eleanor was not in love with him. 

It does not require that a woman should be in love to be irritated at this; it does not require that she should even acknowledge to herself that it i unpleasant to her.  Eleanor had no such self-knowledge.  She thought in her own heart that it was only on Mr. Arabin's account that she regretted that he could condescend to be amused by the signora.  "I thought he had more mind," she said to herself as she sat watching her baby's cradle on her return from the party.  "After all, I believe Mr. Stanhope is the pleasanter man of the two."  Alas for the memory of poor John Bold!  Eleanor was not in love with Bertie Stanhope, nor was she in love with Mr. Arabin.  But her devotion to her late husband was fast fading when she could revolve in her mind over the cradle of his infant the faults and findings of other aspirants to her favor.

Will anyone blame my heroine for this?  Let him or her rather thank God for all His goodness__for His mercy endureth forever.

Eleanor in truth, was not in love; neither was Mr. Arabin.  Neither indeed was Bertie Stanhope.

But let it be clearly understood that Eleanor was in love with no one and that no one was in love with Eleanor.

Hmmm..... for me, when someone is trying so hard to convince me of something, it makes me think the opposite.  So we shall see if Eleanor is or is not in love, or possibly allowing herself to be open to being in love with someone else, other than her late husband.

[bellamarie]

Barb,  "Neither Bertie or Slope are good marriage partners for any woman much less our Eleanor who dislikes the controversy between clerics and for sure shows her temperament to be as her father, Reverend Hardy who is not a combative man."

Hmmmmm...... I am not so sure our Eleanor is as much like her father the Rev. Hardy who is not a combative man, as you point out, when it comes to her falling in love.  I suspect she has a very strong opinion, and will not be shy to let it be known.  Although our author has mentioned Arabin is a bit shy, I feel he too has shown to not be so timid when it comes to the attention of the signora.  Isn't it bewildering how men can be in the presence of a beautiful woman, and become so bewitched?  Human nature does have a way of winning out.  All good love stories must have a seductress, who woes the men, making the more genteel women jealous.

I'm surprised our dear Trollope in all his book titles did not include such a poem as this:

 The Spider and the Fly

“Will you walk into my parlour?” said the Spider to the Fly,
 'Tis the prettiest little parlour that ever you did spy;
  The way into my parlour is up a winding stair,
   And I've a many curious things to show when you are there.”

“Oh no, no,” said the little Fly, “to ask me is in vain,
 For who goes up your winding stair can never come down again.”
“I'm sure you must be weary, dear, with soaring up so high;
 Will you rest upon my little bed?” said the Spider to the Fly.
“There are pretty curtains drawn around; the sheets are fine and thin,
 And if you like to rest awhile, I'll snugly tuck you in!”

“Oh no, no,” said the little Fly,  “for I've often heard it said,
 They never, never wake again, who sleep upon your bed!”


Said the cunning Spider to the Fly,  “Dear friend what can I do,
 To prove the warm affection I 've always felt for you?
  I have within my pantry, good store of all that's nice;
   I'm sure you're very welcome — will you please to take a slice?”

“Oh no, no,” said the little Fly,  “kind Sir, that cannot be,
 I've heard what's in your pantry, and I do not wish to see!”


“Sweet creature!” said the Spider,  “you're witty and you're wise,
 How handsome are your gauzy wings, how brilliant are your eyes!
  I've a little looking-glass upon my parlour shelf,
   If you'll step in one moment, dear, you shall behold yourself.”

“I thank you, gentle sir,” she said,  “for what you're pleased to say,
 And bidding you good morning now, I'll call another day.”


The Spider turned him round about, and went into his den,
For well he knew the silly Fly would soon come back again:
So he wove a subtle web, in a little corner sly,
And set his table ready, to dine upon the Fly.

Then he came out to his door again, and merrily did sing,
“Come hither, hither, pretty Fly, with the pearl and silver wing;
 Your robes are green and purple — there's a crest upon your head;
  Your eyes are like the diamond bright, but mine are dull as lead!”

Alas, alas! how very soon this silly little Fly,
Hearing his wily, flattering words, came slowly flitting by;
With buzzing wings she hung aloft, then near and nearer drew,
Thinking only of her brilliant eyes, and green and purple hue —
Thinking only of her crested head — poor foolish thing!
     At last,
Up jumped the cunning Spider, and fiercely held her fast.
He dragged her up his winding stair, into his dismal den,
Within his little parlour — but she ne'er came out again!


And now dear little children, who may this story read,
To idle, silly flattering words, I pray you ne'er give heed:
Unto an evil counsellor, close heart and ear and eye,
And take a lesson from this tale, of the Spider and the Fly.
                                                                                             ~By Mary Howitt, 1829


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spider_and_the_Fly_(poem)

[BarbStAubrey]

Ha I love it - The Spider and the Fly - perfect...

Took time today during class breaks to re-read the chapter Mr. Arabin - much of his early school life was a copy of Trollop's school experience - I wonder if Trollop felt like a boy who faded into the woodwork as he describes Arabin. Appears Arabin worked so hard to achieve anything in life including, being worthy of his calling and how he would express that calling, either as a Protestant or a Roman Catholic - He chose Protestant but, to be worthy he lived as close as anyone to the life of a Catholic priest and finds himself at age 40 having missed out on establishing a family life that he found so agreeable while visiting Archdeacon Gravely. And so now I can see that he has a more 'wholesome' intent for family and home compared to Slope and Bertie, both who only see in Eleanore, dollars.

Tried to figure out why the whole bunch of them annoyed me and finally I realized none of them do anything - they are all great with words and books and people are their currency - the only one who does anything is Reverend Hardy, who at least plays the cello but then he is so self effacing he drives me mad. I can smile at the bluster of the Archdeacon but see nothing, no passion for life or to create good for others. I guess you can say he was about the business of creating good for Arabin when he and Mrs. Grantly scoured the house for repairs that Arabin will take over at St. Ewold's.

Now if any of the men were on their horses overseeing the estate but, I get the impression there really isn't a large estate to oversee - gardeners and the like are hired so that the close is more like a large suburban compound - As to the ladies, they do not even organize charitable projects - nothing - I like people that do things in addition to being well read and who engage in discussing many subjects. For that matter Signora Neroni organizes, not only others but she organizes her participation with others - she is more alive than any of the other women - best so far is Miss Thorne and William Thorne - they pursue their interest in what they read and all things medieval.   

[bellamarie]

Barb, "Appears Arabin worked so hard to achieve anything in life including, being worthy of his calling and how he would express that calling, either as a Protestant or a Roman Catholic - He chose Protestant but, to be worthy he lived as close as anyone to the life of a Catholic priest and finds himself at age 40 having missed out on establishing a family life that he found so agreeable while visiting Archdeacon Gravely. And so now I can see that he has a more 'wholesome' intent for family and home compared to Slope and Bertie, both who only see in Eleanore, dollars."


I too, am seeing Mr. Arabin a much better person in character, and Christianity, compared to Slope or Bertie.  Just in re reading their first sermons to the congregation, their choice of scriptures, words during their Homily, delivery, and how the members received them gives great insight to the man they are.  Arabin, appears to me, to be a deep thinker, a true Christian, who cares about his members, where Slope seems to care more about himself.  Has Tollope succeeded in winning the readers over to Mr. Arabin's side, and will this be an indication of which will win Eleanor's heart?  We shall see.....

Comparing Mr. Slope’s first sermon to Mr. Arabin’s:

There was, at any rate, no tedium felt in listening to Mr. Slope on the occasion in question. His subject came too home to his audience to be dull, and to tell the truth Mr. Slope had the gift of using words forcibly. He was heard through his thirty minutes of eloquence with mute attention and open ears, but with angry eyes, which glared round from one enraged parson to another, with wide-spread nostrils from which already burst forth fumes of indignation, and with many shufflings of the feet and uneasy motions of the body, which betokened minds disturbed and hearts not at peace with all the world.

____________________________________________________________________

Mr. Arabin, however, had not the modesty of youth to impede him, and he succeeded with his sermon even better than with the lessons. He took for his text two verses out of the second epistle of St. John, “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God-speed.” He told them that the house of theirs to which he alluded was this their church, in which he now addressed them for the first time; that their most welcome and proper manner of bidding him God-speed would be their patient obedience to his teaching of the gospel; but that he could put forward no claim to such conduct on their part unless he taught them the great Christian doctrine of works and faith combined. On this he enlarged, but not very amply, and after twenty minutes succeeded in sending his new friends home to their baked mutton and pudding well pleased with their new minister.

We have had both type of priests described in each of these men in my parish, and I can tell you already, our members would not take a liking to Mr. Slope, because we would see right through him.  Mr. Arabin, I can see fitting right in with my parish and community.

[BarbStAubrey]

Well what started off as a bang dwindled to just you and I Bellamarie - with the holiday season starting I think a reset is in order -

I am going to move up the next read to start tomorrow Sunday the 29th so that instead of only 7 chapters for the week - we can do this book in the next 2 weeks by adding 4 more chapters next week and the final week also add 4 chapters and the start of each of the next two weeks will be on Sunday.

So new Schedule - and it may be just us Bellamarie - I am like, the Shakespeare Sonnets reluctant to leave something unfinished.

October 29 to November 4 - Chapters 28 Mrs. Bold is entertained by Dr. and Mrs. Grantly at Plumstead - to - Chapter 39 The Lookalofts and the Greenacres. 

November 5 to November 11 - Chapter 40 Ullathorne Sports - to - Chapter 53 Conclusion

[bellamarie]

 I have not read ahead, so I have no idea where this is going.  I am very disappointed in the lack of participation in the discussions lately.  Such good books, so little interest.  I would post more often, but I feel like I am talking to myself.  I peeked into the Library, and other topics and it seems little to no activity there as well.  I do hope we are not seeing SeniorLearn coming to an end.  Lurkers can not keep us alive, we need active participation.   

Barb, if you are too busy, and can not find the time to contribute, I can finish the book at my leisure, or go watch the video on YouTube, and we can stop here. 

[Jonathan]

I regret that  I haven't contributed more to the discussion. It's not for lack of interest. I'm absolutely engrossed in Trollope's story and his style. But it's constantly "What can I say to this?" What curious characters. What complex situations. A good example is the comparison suggested by Bellamarie of the two preaching styles of Rev Slope and Rev Arabin. Both are fighting for the hearts and minds of the nice people of Barchester. Both attempting to win the heart of Elineor, who is not interested in romance. What a study in character. The English character.

Isn't Squire Thorne something else. I'm impressed by his bloodline. And his intellectual curiousity. Anyone who is hooked on Burton and Montaigne has my respect. I love  both authors myself. Montaigne's Essays, I remember reading somewhere. were General Eisenhower's favorite reading. Just recently I picked up Sarah Bakewell's biography: How To Live: A Life of Montaigne in one question and twenty attempts at an answer. That's the question: How to Live? And the answers: Don't worry about death. Pay attention. Be born. Read a lot. Survive love and loss. Use little tricks. Question everything. Keep a private room behind the shop. Be convivial: live with others. Wake from the sleep of habit. Live temperately. Guard your humanity. Do something no one has done before. See the world. Do a good job. Philosophise only by accident. Reflect on everything; regret nothing. Give up control. Be ordinary and imperfect. Let life be its own answer.

And Burton's Melancholy is just as interesting. A Rennaissance Freud. With a difference. The book is a royal road to learning. And so it goes. Isn't Trollope a great tourist guide to Victorian England!

[Jonathan]

Just read your post, Bellamarie. How sad. So many voices have fallen silent.

[BarbStAubrey]

Bless you both - not planning to end here but if you are also thinking your time is full, we can - it is up to y'all - I just thought to change the discussion time from the next 3 weeks to the next 2 weeks - I will work with what ever you decide - Bellamarie please do not hesitate to state your druthers - if you prefer then we can stop - again, I will be glad to go another 2 weeks - or even if y'all decide just another week - in a week's time I do not think we can read the entire book and make observations however it gives us a chance to wrap up - or we can stop now.

I've an idea - we could just relax and if we go days without any posts - then so be it - instead of questions to consider I will just post the chapters so that at least one day during the week we can sum up our impressions - again, I will want to make it only for the next two weeks by reading a few more chapters each week - instead of 7 chapters we would be reading 11 chapters - hindsight, it would have been better to start in mid-September but here we are and as the saying goes - When something goes wrong, stop and yell, PLOT TWIST and go on... rather a PLOT TWIST than feeling guilty that the discussion was not up to our expectations.

I too Jonathan am blown away with the many references to the politics of the day and the many authors he quotes off the tip of his tongue - as you say, "The book is a royal road to learning." Moreover, it does help in that my edition does have a star next to anything that is further explained in the annotated notes - reading the notes gives far more impact to the wit he uses describing characters however, without the notes it can still be a straight up story that holds its own.

Frankly, I want to get into reading something about these historical events and the many authors he references - yes, a royal road to learning but not now - the holidays are descending and I was never made so aware then this norther that blew in yesterday - a joke here in Central Texas, better seen as a video, as we wrap our selves as if hiking the Alps anytime the temp in the area is below 65 - Last night it was 38 in town and will be again that cold tonight with it only reaching 57 during the day today - The streets are free of all traffic - everyone is home keeping warm and getting ready for the next 2 months packed with holidays.

Neighborhood Halloween parties galore starting tonight and then the big Mexican Parties on Monday for the Day of the Dead - and on TV (the modern fireplace hearth) both College and High School football are big and of course we are all watching the Astros.  Wouldn't that be grand if they win - we shall see what we shall see.

And so with all of that, the nineteenth century garden parties and squabbles over who will work with the old folks and who will win what girl and how the Corn Law was or was not a cause for Britain's success or failure seems like an invitation to read more and more of the referenced material and more and more of Trollop which, with all the Autumn-edge-of-your-seat hoopla taking first place the timing is off for in-depth study.

Again, just give me a hint which way y'all would prefer to see this discussion move along or if you would prefer to stop. As I say we can simply leave it open and let posts be a sometimes happening.

[BarbStAubrey]

Welcome to our Fall read,
Trollop's, Barchester Towers

Fourth Week, October 29 - November 4 Discussing, Chapter 28 - to - Chapter 39 Barchester is an ancient but imaginary twenty-ninth dioceses to the medieval parochial and cathedral system of the Anglican Church in Britain. Central to the Victorian characters who occupy this factitious community is social conflict; both the trivial and the important are presented with equal respect and noble intent.  "Yes, Slope, I think that would be best; and you may be sure that any little I can do to forward your views shall be done.' Mr. Slope had now much business on his hands. He had to make his daily visit to the Signora.

Please post your impressions, questions, observations and research ---

The schedule for our discussion     Oct. 8 - 14 ---- Chapter 1, Who will be the new Bishop? -  to - Chapter 9, The Stanhope Family Oct. 15 - 21 --- Chapter 10, Mrs Proudie's Receptions - Commenced - to - Chapter 19, Barchester by Moonlight Oct. 22 - 28 --- Chapter 20, Mr Arabin - to - Chapter 27, A Love Scene Oct. 29 - Nov. 4 --- Chapter 28, Mr. Bold is entertained by Dr and Mrs Grantly at Plumstead - to - Chapter 39, The Lookalofts and the Greenacres. Nov. 5 - 11 --- Chapter 40, Ullathorne Sports - Act II - to - Chapter 53, Conclusion -

Discussion Leader: Barb

[bellamarie]

Barb and Jonathan, bless your hearts.  Some where earlier in one of your posts I remember reading how Trollope’s editor had suggested he shorten the book.  I must say, I agree, the last half of the book seems to just be a bit much.  Maybe it’s because the discussion fell off, but as Barb mentioned, when something goes wrong, stop and call plot twist!  So, yes, plot twist..... let’s forget the questions.  It’s a shame you put so much time and work into the questions, when there is so little input. 

To be honest, after posting earlier, I went ahead and watched part six and seven of the YouTube video, and then went back to my book, and read backwards from the conclusion up to chapter 48.  Since I kinda thought Eleanor and Arabin would eventually end up together, I wanted to see if I was correct.  I will attempt to read the other chapters and continue to post this week, and see where we go from here.  I can’t thank you enough for returning to our discussion and moderating this book.  You always make the discussions so enlightening and interesting.  But I understand you are very busy.

Jonathan, as usual, I always enjoy your insight and knowledge.  You suggested two great books, and I am so very sorry we could not hold the interest of those who began the discussion with us.  Lurkers, as they refer to themselves, do not realize how much we need their input and participation to keep the discussion alive.

Barb, I have not gotten into any pre holiday spirit as yet.  Halloween is not a big holiday for me so no big parties to attend.  Just going over to my son’s house on Tuesday to pass out candy, while they take the grandkids trick or treating.  I do enjoy Saturday college football, but no Sunday football.  When our hometown Cleveland Browns were taken to Baltimore, I just could not find the loyalty to the Ravens.  Sunday is a fun day we either spend with the family, or my hubby and I try to find things to do outside the house, unless the weather is messy, then we hang out at home reading, playing word games, or watch movies after church. 

[BarbStAubrey]

Here too - Sunday and weekday evening football took a sharp decline with all the pre-game controversy - but High School and Collage football is as big as ever and now, we have the Houston Astros going for the World's Series - a first - so the game is on everywhere.

Austin is a party town and more so now - everyone is fed up with so much controversy on TV - replacing with a good party including the kids has swept the town - we have 3 families in our neighborhood, who with the children's friends have turned their home into spooky houses - they have invited anyone in the neighborhood too come - reserving the earlier 6: to 7:30 time for folks with little kids so they can get home for a normal bedtime - plus the Methodist and the Episcopal church have Halloween parties Sunday afternoon and Sunday night the Catholic Church has a spooky walk since surrounding the church/school/parking area is a wooded area. Then as I say, Monday and Monday night is the big street party downtown as well as, in the Mexic-Arte Museum and in a few Catholic cemeteries celebrating the Day of the Dead. 

This year I am starting to get things done for Christmas - knitting for all the grand boys fills most of my evenings. Today made a huge pot of thick chicken soup that I've frozen in serving size containers so I do not have to spend time each day cooking. I really want to sand and paint the front door before Thanksgiving and find some bulbs to force bloom for Christmas plus bake cookies for the school crossing guards at both schools and the firemen who are so good to us in this neighborhood.

I pulled down all the Christmas books yesterday - wish I had some on Cds - would love to hear some of these stories read aloud while I am knitting - had not been doing any of this for years, usually I go to my daughter's for 2 weeks at Christmas  but not this year - they will be wrapped up with the wedding of one of Cade's pals since grade school - and then Cade leaves immediately for South America and Ty will be home after Christmas for a few days - So I have my bucket list of all the things I want to do and see plus, I still have a listing in Georgetown to get sold.

To our discussion - years ago we agreed that we needed 3 participants to open a discussion - we had far more than three to start but things happen and so, as much as I love sharing and reading with both you, Bellamarie and you, Jonathan we needed a few more to help us fill in finding the references and a few more who can enlarge on the ideas that come to us so that it does not feel like we are talking to ourselves or talking too much. We'll just step back and let what happens happen - we will ease along posting what and when we have something to say but for sure the time is one week less than the original 3 weeks planned for the last half of the book.

[CallieOK]

I apologize for signing up and then not participating.

My reading time was, as a friend says, OBE  ("Overcome By Events") and the discussion just a bit too "scholarly" for the time I had to devote to study.

Even so,  I'm still enjoying reading the book and intend to see how the story ends.

Thank you, Barb for all your work.

[Jonathan]

We must see this book through to the end, Barb. I'm very eager to get through it so I can go on to another of Trollope's books that I now have on my shelf. Thank you so much for putting me onto him.  How can a bishop of the Church of England be made to look so abject by his wife. How can the Reverend Slope be tied up in such emotional knots by the Signora Neroni in the chapter, A Love Scene. There was another book on the bookseller's shelf that I should go back for. Trollope and his Women. It seems to me he did a lot for 19C feminism.

I don't want you to have my experience. I'm persona non grata in Florence, Itlay. Do you remember the Brunelleschi Dome discussion a few years ago, which I was leading, and ended half-way through for lack of interest? And left Florence without its dome. I don't dare go there. They're mean. Just look at the trouble Dante had there.

You reccommended another good book on the subject which I have. The Feud That Sparked The Renaissance, by Paul Robert Walker. It is excellent. Gotta go. I'm called to dinner.

[BarbStAubrey]

We'll push on Jonathan - lets see how we do this week - and you are right - he does make his women strong characters - talk about Mrs Proudie how about Mrs. Quiverful, a lioness going further then her husband to secure the promotion in last weeks chapter 25.

'E'en such a man, so faint, so spiritless,
So dull, so dead in look, so woe-begone,
Drew Priam's curtain in the dead of night."

From Shakespeare's Henry IV - in my way of thinking, not only does the quote work for Mrs. Quiverful explaining away the Reverend Quiverful but it works for the Mrs. Proudie and her Bishop and explains Reverend Hardy - for that matter, as sincere a good fellow in Arabin it would work for him as well. All of them are 'don't rock the boat' types. Slope is a mover and shaker regardless of his moral turpitude and at least 'off with his head' Archdeacon Grantly has his bluster. Bertie is a scamp but for sure not dull or spiritless and Mr. Thorne is the sanest active male in the entire story. Where as, all the women have it hands down.

Never heard the word laches as in, 'laches committed were none of her committing.' turns out laches means culpable or negligence.

Amazing that an entire chapter can be written about a letter sent and received and how all those who were aware of the letter had their impression of what was said covertly and outwardly in the letter. Just amazing - can you imagine that kind of reaction to a Text sent today...  Talk about understanding body language and a letter exchanged from your own sensibilities - wow... 

[Mkaren557]

    Although it was considerably shorter, the same thing happened in the Cranford discussion.  The old joke about Dickens that the biggest mistake in the world was paying him by the word.  The same may be said of Trollope.  I have always attributed the wordiness to the Victorian style and assumed that the readers were more patient than we are.  By we, I mean present day readers, not just us.  Look at George Eliot's Middlemarch which many claim is the best novel in the English Language.  It is umungous. Even I who professes to love Victorian literature, have lost interest in Barchester.  I loved the tv series.  Perhaps adding the action that is necessary for the screen is what makes seeing it rather than reading it more attractive.  Anyway, I am sorry I haven't kept up.  Perhaps we would be better off with a contemporary novel next time.  I hate to see this group end, but we do seem to be floundering.
           

[BarbStAubrey]

Sorry you lost interest Karen - and yes, the Victorians have their way with words.

Words, words, words, all I hear are words;

Don't talk of stars, burning above
If you're in love, show me
Tell me not dreams, filled with desire
If you're on fire, show me

Never do I ever want to hear another word
There isn't one, I haven't heard
Here we are together in what ought to be a dream
Say one more word and I'll scream   

[BarbStAubrey]

Chapter 29 starts off letting us know the status of a woman - as a married lady the Archdeacon would not scold Eleanore but it appears now she is open game in many ways - to be scolded - to be wooed - it sounds also as if being scolded as an adult women would be an appropriate role for a brother - my oh my... and a soft womanly tone is the preferred way of speaking. 

[BarbStAubrey]

Don't you love it... "Mr. Arabin had never thought of trimming the sails of his bark so that he might sail as convoy to this rich argosy." Talk about words... 

And so we finally see some warm blood pumping in the veins of Mr. Arabin just because of a family feud over the close attachment this rich argosy has to another, Obadiah Slope!

Followed by a quote from Van Artevelde - never heard of him but he is considered One of Eighteen literary giants of English Literature - not just Victorian but all English Literature - another of Jonathan's royal road to learning

All to say that the movie could not show us chapter 30 - oh oh oh - did not realize the depth of Mr. Arabin and the proud spunk of Eleanore comes through in her bearing but the thoughts of Mr. Arabin was worth all the words in the chapter - wunderbar Mr. Anthony Trollop.

[CallieOK]

I love all the words and am finding that reading the text "aloud" in my head is helping me get a "tone" for the phrasing.  Of course, I have a similar sense of humor so am enjoying the subtle (and, sometimes, not so subtle...) "snarky" observations.

[BarbStAubrey]

Great idea Callie - wouldn't this be a wonderful book to hear on tape or whatever the devises are used today where someone reads a book -

Love this in chapter 32 - "That the prestige of continual victory should have been torn from her standards was a subject of great sorrow to that militant lady, but, though defeated, she was not overcome. She felt that she might yet recover her lost ground, that she might yet hurl Mr. Slope down to the dust from which she had picked him and force her sinning lord to sue for pardon in sackcloth and ashes."

"Hurl Mr. Slope down to the dust" - love it, just love it... "and force her sinning lord to sue for pardon in sackcloth and ashes" now that is serious he-is-beneath-me-outrage.

[bellamarie]

Jonathan,  Don't worry,  we are going no where.  Barb and I got through Shakespeare's Sonnets, and Pinocchio, so hang in there and the three of us, and anyone else who wants to jump in, will indeed see Tollope's Barchester to the end!   We sure would not want to be banned from England.

Callie, You won't regret sticking it out to the end.  Lots of action and accusations in the second half of the book.  WOW!  What a party for Mr. Arabin.

Karen,  YES!!!   You nailed it!  The first time I read Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice, it was my first experience in reading Victorian wordy books.  I must say, it took me a little bit of time to acclimate myself not only to the tone, but also the wordiness of the book.  I thought, oh my heavens how does she use so many words to get the point over.  I thought about your point about the writers and readers being so much more patient back in that era.  Today, everything is instant gratification, that yes, taking the time to read a lengthy book is a real feat, especially when it's a Trollope book that has so many characters to keep up with.  I too watched the video on youtube, and I can tell you the book is a thousand times better!!!!  The movie helped me put a face to the characters, but honestly, the movie lacks the personality and humor that Trollope has created in the book.

Barb, I too am enjoying these next chapters.  I am glad I backed up and started with this week's reading.  Oh my, they sure have assumed a lot of our Eleanor.  She is proving to have more spunk than anyone expected of her.  I love how she stood up to the Archbishop and Mr. Arabin.  And poor Mr. Slope, (I say in jest) she sure gave him a wallop!  The movie did not do this scene justice what so ever!   

 

[Jonathan]

What is the wallop that Eleanor gives Mr Slope? Does she cut off the tresses that he dared to mention in his letter to her?

I'm pleased to hear that the book keeps getting better and that we will continue through to the end. I seem to remember reading somewhere that Trollope felt that character and situation were more important than plot. And hasn't he got his people in a most unusual conflict. Clergymen in a state of war. Not a christian among them Fighting over the fish and the loaves.

When I was a young man I wondered that my female acquaintances were so unusually well informed about human relations. Now I put it down to their reading these Victorian novelists, and perhaps especially Trollope.

Words. Words, Words. I appreciate what has been said about them, but can someone tell me the word that's wanted in this quote from Chapter 28?

'And he, foolish, weak, loving man, would not say one word, though one word would have cleared up everything. There would have been a deluge of tears, and in ten minutes everyone in the house would have understood how matters really were. The father would have been delighted. The sister would have kissed her sister and begged a thousand pardons. The archdeacon would have apologized and wondered, and raised his eyebrows, and gone to bed a happy man. And Mr Arabin - Mr Arabin would have dreamt of Eleanor, have awoke in the morning with ideas  of love, and retired to rest the next evening with schemes of marriage. But, alas, all this was not to be.'

 What a difference the right word can make. Why am I reminded of the lines. 'Water, water, everywhere, but not a drop to drink.'

These clergymen are 'warring' among each other, over the fish and the loaves provided by the church. It certainly gives the expression the 'church militant' a new meaning.

Eleanor seems so like her father, the saint, in some ways. She hates Mr Slope but cannot offend him if he is fighting for her father.

The World Series kept me up until 1 o'clock last night. Interesting to see two presidents doing the ceremonial thing. For the first time ever I want neither side to lose.

[BarbStAubrey]

Pusillanimous Arabin drowning in silence. 

[bellamarie]

Jonathan,  "When I was a young man I wondered that my female acquaintances were so unusually well informed about human relations. Now I put it down to their reading these Victorian novelists, and perhaps especially Trollope."

Oh, if only I would have had the privilege of reading Jane Austen, or Trollope books back when.  Growing up we had no access to a library, and had no books to read in my house.  I craved books, and I am thinking it's the reason I have such an imagination, from creating stories in my head as a child.  My extent of any reading material that I can remember was Pippi Longstocking, a mischievous little girl in pigtails that was more a tomboy, than a frilly girl.  So, when I got married, my older sister recommended me to read some Harlequin romance novels, and another book I will not divulge, to help inform me as you say, "human relations." Oh the innocence I had back then, if only the girls of today could value that, and not advance so quickly.  I fear romance is out the window, and it's more about instantaneous gratification in the world today.  Women's lib seems to have given females the right to be careless and carefree in relationships, taking with it the beauty of these type of love stories.  Now we have Madonna, and Ashley Judd taking to the podium yelling, "Nasty Women!"  Oh how I pray I will never be tempted to be a part of this attitude.

Ooops..... we'll save the discussion on the wallop Mr. Slope receives from Eleanor for the next week's reading.  I dare say I got ahead of myself.

I do see Eleanor much like her father as being a good Christian, but I think she is far more stronger in mind than her father, and ready and able to speak her mind ONLY when she sees fit.  Poor troubled Mr. Arabin is seeing just how strong minded our Eleanor is:

Chapter 38

He had sat there alone with his glass before him, and then with his tea-pot, thinking about Eleanor Bold.  As is usual in such meditations, he did little but blame her; blame her for liking Mr. Slope, and blame her for not liking him; blame her for her cordiality to himself, blame her for her want of cordiality; blame her for being stubborn, headstrong, and passionate; and yet more he thought of her the higher she rose in his affection.  If only it should turn out, if only it could be made to turn out, that she had defended Mr. Slope, not from love, but on principle, all would be right.  Such principle in itself would be admirable, lovable, womanly; he felt that he could be pleased to allow Mr. Slope just so much favour as that.  But if__And then Mr. Arabin poked his fire most unnecessarily, spoke crossly to his new parlor-maid who came in for the tea-things, and threw himself back in his chair determined to go to sleep.. Why had she been so stiff-necked when asked a plain question?  She could not but have known in what light he regarded her.  Why had she not answered a plain question and so put an end to his misery?  Then, instead of going to sleep in his armchair, Mr. Arabin walked about the room as though he had been possessed.

A man in love indeed!