Author Topic: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online  (Read 2041 times)

bellamarie

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #160 on: October 31, 2017, 10:53:02 AM »

Welcome to our Fall read,
Trollop's, Barchester Towers


Fourth Week, October 29 - November 4
Discussing, Chapter 28 - to - Chapter 39


Barchester is an ancient but imaginary twenty-ninth dioceses to the medieval parochial and cathedral system of the Anglican Church in Britain.

Central to the Victorian characters who occupy this factitious community is social conflict; both the trivial and the important are presented with equal respect and noble intent. 

"Yes, Slope, I think that would be best; and you may be sure that any little I can do to forward your views shall be done.'

Mr. Slope had now much business on his hands. He had to make his daily visit to the Signora.


Please post your impressions, questions, observations and research ---

The schedule for our discussion    
Oct. 8 - 14 ---- Chapter 1, Who will be the new Bishop? -  to - Chapter 9, The Stanhope Family
Oct. 15 - 21 --- Chapter 10, Mrs Proudie's Receptions - Commenced - to - Chapter 19, Barchester by Moonlight
Oct. 22 - 28 --- Chapter 20, Mr Arabin - to - Chapter 27, A Love Scene
Oct. 29 - Nov. 4 --- Chapter 28, Mr. Bold is entertained by Dr and Mrs Grantly at Plumstead - to - Chapter 39, The Lookalofts and the Greenacres.
Nov. 5 - 11 --- Chapter 40, Ullathorne Sports - Act II - to - Chapter 53, Conclusion -
Discussion Leader: Barb




Jonathan"Clergymen in a state of war. Not a christian among them Fighting over the fish and the loaves."

Now, my friend I am sensing Tollope's humor is rubbing off onto you.  This was a laugh out loud moment reading your assessment of the clergymen.  It does appear in this era the first question on anyone's mind is, "How much money is involved?"  Whether it be marriage, accepting positions, careers, or dowry, first and foremost is the how much money is involved.  I have to say my Mom once told me, "You can love a man with money, as well as one without."   Considering we grew up in a small town rural area, living off the land, and not having nice material things, just the bare necessities, I imagine she was hoping all of her six daughters would marry princes rather than paupers.  NOT that my Daddy was a pauper, he would have provided our family as a Prince, had he not gotten killed in a train wreck leaving her a widow with seven small children.  Hence is where my strong faith comes from, since many a times the loaves multiplied at our dinner table, like manna from Heaven.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Mkaren557

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #161 on: October 31, 2017, 01:24:59 PM »
Bellamarie, you have really inspired me to pick up the rest of the book and finish it.  When I was a freshman in high school, we were assigned David Copperfield to read in six weeks in addition to all our other homework.  I never thought I was going to finish the 800 pages that lay before me.  I did finish in spite of the endless words and count it as my first academic accomplishment.  I want to paraphrase Dorothy Parker when she was asked what she loved about writing.  She said that she loved having written.  I love having read David Copperfield and I will love having read Barchester Towers.  By the way, I was fifty before I read Jane Eyrewhich I loved.  However, it was very sad for me that I didn't read it when I was 16.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #162 on: October 31, 2017, 02:19:21 PM »
Bellamarie you post to Jonathan has company  ;)  :D

Yes, agree with both of you - regardless called loaves and fishes or dowry or a living income, money seems to be the underlying message in every encounter - even the choice of characterization for Mr. Thorne - he just happens to live in the most comfortable of circumstances letting us know that money is everything including, being well read, having interests to pursue, being a congenial host, and an all round, outspoken, enthusiastic, good fellow.

The more you think of it though, Dickens certainly made us aware of debtors prison and what folks would do for money and what they were reduced to without - and so this time in at least Britain, money was a big issue - we hear of many who go abroad to make their fortune like Heathcliff and others - even Jane Austin's stories are based on money being the root of your status in life. There were no usury laws and this is when the Rothschilds made their fortune lending money, even to nations. And so it appears Trollop is being true to his earlier statement, I think it was Arabin who says that clerics are similar to any profession that has its squabbles and its learning curve which would also include, its need for personal income as well as, building and maintenance of church property.

Do not know how the Catholic priest is paid - I do know from the Sunday collection 10% goes to Rome and 15% goes to the Bishop which is why there are all these separate money earning events to make church repairs or to build because those collections are not subject to the same sharing obligation as the Sunday collections.

I do know that the nuns, since Vatican II put them on their own financially, have been very wise investing and are worth millions, so much more than the priests. With fewer and fewer young women joining the orders they remaining nuns are very wealthy and that was the basis of the Vatican trying to control the nuns a couple of years ago and they are still at it but not as aggressively - they really want control of the accumulated wealth. So money is still playing its role among the clergy. 

It is a head snapper to read about the clergy and their advancement meaning an increase in their income since we were brought up to think our collection basket donations was saving babies in some far off part of the world or helping the poor or even adding space to the the parish school and never imagined our hard earned dollars were bringing wealth to the Bishop and to Rome. Unless we served on the parish governing committee we had no idea how the pastor and other priests were paid - a parish that was an extension of an 'order', like the Benedictines or the Franciscans, had financial help from the order but then in return there was money sent back to the monastery or abbey just as a diocesan parish sends money to the Bishop. Maybe that whole thing about it being impolite to talk about money still carries on when it comes to the clergy hmmm in this day and age I wonder if parishioners can handle transparency.

Bellamarie I like how you bring to our attention - "Poor troubled Mr. Arabin is seeing just how strong minded our Eleanor is:" goes with Jonathan's remark earlier about how Trollop writes about women.

Found this quote - surely written since the 1970s but for sure would fit our Eleanore - A woman needs someone not to take care of them but to care for them - and then I love this one that also explains our Eleanore and for that matter, her sister and the Signora - it is what Mrs. Proudie does not have and that lack is probably at the bottom of her dislike for the Signora  since she was getting or rather taking her validation from Slope and her position as the Bishop's wife - the saying - The woman who does not need validation from anyone is the most feared individual on the planet. 

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #163 on: October 31, 2017, 02:22:28 PM »
Karen - see you were posting as I was writing - oh do pick up the book again - so glad that Bellamarie inspired you - I hope you will add to the conversation - what I have decided is to read 2 chapters a day for 5 days and one chapter over the weekend - that way I can post a bit each day - hope you come up with a system that works for you. Looking forward to your visits...  :)

Jonathan

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #164 on: October 31, 2017, 02:30:19 PM »
Does Rev Slope turn out to be the martyr in the end?

Getting a lesson in love. You all can't imagine the feelings with which I am reading Barchester Towers for the first time, at 88! It's bringing on such warm feelings. What it takes for love to take root and grow! Bring on adversity, misunderstanding and slander.

Poor pusillanimous Arabin. Can't you imagine him saying to Dr Grantly: There's more to life than is dreamed of in our theology.

My vote for Eleanor as first Bishop of Barchester, eventually.

Jonathan

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #165 on: October 31, 2017, 02:31:46 PM »
I've decided to sit down with my book and not get up until I finish it.

bellamarie

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #166 on: October 31, 2017, 11:19:39 PM »
Karen, you will not be disappointed in completing the book.  There were parts that were dragging, but for the most part it's a book that will stay with me like Pride & Prejudice did, which is my all time favorite book ever I read.  I have to admit I have read ahead, but have not read all the chapters.  The best is yet to come!!! 

Jonathan, you are going to love the next chapters, especially chapter XL  Ullathorne Sports __ Act II, lots of action here!  Mr. Slope a martyr?  Oh heavens where on earth could you ever imagine that?  After his lack of Christian character, trying to woe two women at the same time, he'll be lucky to still be a clergyman, once those rumors get out.  In a small town, they always find their way out you know.

Barb, Interesting you mentioning priests and nuns being paid.  I was of the notion priests were not allowed to own any homes, cars or have an income, that the church provided them with their basic needs.  I will be seeing Fr. Miller tomorrow and will have to probe and see what he tells me.  I do know that my hubby's first cousin Fr. Bob Reinhart retired, and his family provided wiith him a home.  My hubby and I owned a cottage on a lake we inherited from his parents, which shared an easement with Fr. Bob's parents.  We chose to sell our cottage to them, so they could in turn give them both to Fr. Bob when he retired.  The two cottages would then have to be joined as one, due to changes in property size, digging a well, and having a seepage bed so many feet from the dwelling.  It was getting very complicated, so we just agreed to sell, so Fr. Bob would have a home when he retired.

Yes, funny how money is the focus, yet as the saying goes, "Money is the root of all evil."  Barchester appears to be a very well off town.

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Jonathan

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #167 on: November 01, 2017, 02:41:56 PM »
It's hard to put this book down. I do so only to watch another ball game of the best World Series ever. And, of course, to read your posts. I feel I'm completing my education. As they say, follow the money. Unbelievable wealth came into the hands of the church people. Just consider what it took to build all those beautiful cathedrals. Surely it exceeded the US defense budget in medieaval times. And, of course, it made for a lot of good 'livings'. Breaking with Rome was good budgeting for Henry VIII.

'The woman who does not need validation from anyone is the most feared individual on the planet.'

'It fits Eleanor.' That's interesting, Barb. Would it fit Mrs Proudie? Could Mrs Proudie be seen as a hostile woman. I saw the book with that title in the bookstore yesterday. It caught my imagination.

Thanks for the promise of interesting reading ahead, Bellamarie. I'm laughing over your typo regarding Mr Slope: 'trying to woe two women at the same time'. Did you perhaps mean 'woo', or 'wow'? Perhaps he's capable of doing all three. He's very clever. As a 'martyr'? Perhaps your right. Perhaps I'm just looking for a surprise ending.

I think my next Trollope book will be The Prime Minister. Can he do for, or to, British politics, what he did to the Church of England?

bellamarie

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #168 on: November 01, 2017, 03:13:37 PM »
Woo, is what I meant Jonathan.  But yes. perhaps he could to all three!   :D :D

I went to All Saints Day/Grandparent's Day Mass/luncheon this morning with my granddaughter who is a sophomore and then a bit of shopping, so I am going to take a little rest before I have to go teach CCD and go to another Mass with my students.  Phew.... I'll be ready to snuggle in tomorrow and try to finish up the chapters I have remaining.  I think I am rooting for the Astros but to be honest, I never follow baseball, I just know so many who want the Astros to win. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #169 on: November 01, 2017, 03:54:43 PM »
Interesting Bellamarie what the Bible says about money - we have shortened Timothy but other quotes do not seem to capture this need to interpret as the puritans.

Timothy 6:10 says, "For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows."

Matthew 6:24 says, "You cannot serve both God and money." hmm with all the talk of decreased earnings for the position of Bishop and Warden and how to better your earning through position sounds like what Trollop is shining his spotlight on - serving money which questions how you can also serve God.

Following is the bible verse that is probably at the root of all those Cathedrals Jonathan.

Malachi 3:10 - "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it."

Then there is the practice of the Catholic Church to give penance to the wealthy for their confessed sins that included the building of a shrine, a chapel, a library and in the case of one of the kings of Spain, forgot which one, he built an entire Cathedral - there were probably others but I only know of the one, I think he was a Phillip and so yes, old King Henry received lots of 'improved real estate' although, he and his daughter Elizabeth destroyed lots of books, art, valuable textiles and lots of people - ah so and the world moves on. 

Jonathan that game last night was almost as good as the 5th - when the worst (yep an
Astro fan - horses of courses) was happening I was like a 5 year old wanting to bury my face in my mother's arm when the scary part came on the screen so, I actually got up and had to walk into the other room - tender hooks for tonight.

As to Mrs. Proudie being hostile - I think that is one of the causes of her hostility - she does need validation - she gets it from her position as the Bishop's wife therefore, she has value that is a one-upmanship over others and added to her value is Slope's attention and agreement with her views (now that we know Slope he probably agreed with Mrs. Proudie as a political move). Therefore, when he gives homage and flirts with Signora, who does not need validation, Mrs. Proudie sees his attention to another woman, who is not only more attractive and hold a noble title as an attack on her importance. She uses things like the proper dress code for the wife of a Bishop to elevate herself as the proper and good wife. Someone who does not need validation does not elevate themselves - like all the millionaires and billionaires who live in these parts dress in jeans because they are practical - they do not have to make a statement - they are their own person.

Well we have Mrs. Proudie biding her time after her husband makes it known he is the head of the household and he is the Bishop that all communication comes to him first - we shall see what we shall see - lots of backbone in Mrs. Proudie  that she has used to advance her position.



BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #170 on: November 01, 2017, 04:03:00 PM »
You have been busy today Bellamaire - looks like after all the rain and cold the weather we may be back to typical temps here tomorrow - hopefully we are not all crying in our beer but broadly smiling.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #171 on: November 02, 2017, 09:32:37 AM »
This is a By the Way post - a nice and short video showing folks being a part of the Day of the Dead at the Mexican Culture Museum - not as party like with candles as the night time celebration or the Tejano music sung and danced to downtown but a flavor - this is folks getting ready that took place on Sunday.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/3yQ29sJPbi4?ecver=2"

bellamarie

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #172 on: November 02, 2017, 11:41:05 AM »
What is the purpose of Chapter 39?  Some of the lowly get to be in the presence of the most high regarded, and the others feel left out.

"She told me she zee'd em come in-that they was dressed finer by half nor any of the family, with all their neckses a buzoms stak naked as a born babby."  "The mines!" exclaimed Mrs. Greenacre, who felt herself more put about by this than any other mark of aristocratic distinction which her enemies has assumed.  "Yes, indeed," continued Mrs. Guffern, "as naked as you please, while all the quality was dressed just as you and I be, Mrs. Greenacre."  "Drat their impudence." said Mrs. Greenacre, from whose well-covered bosom all milk of human kindness was reeding, as far as the family of the Lookalofts were concerned.

Why had not Miss Thorne boldly gone to the intruder and said, "Friend, thous hast come up hither to high places not fitted to thee.  Go down lower, and thou wilt find thy mates."  Let the Lookalofts be treated at the present moment with ever so cold a shoulder, they would still be enabled to boast hereafter of their position, their aspirations, and their honour.  "Well, with all her grandeur, I do wonder that she be so mean," continued Mrs. Greenacre, unable to dismiss the subject.

"Likening themselves to the quality, as though they were estated folk, or the like o' that!" said Mrs. Guffern.   


Not quite sure why Trollope has this chapter,  Barb, once again I will rely on your insights.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #173 on: November 02, 2017, 03:14:47 PM »
ah Bellamarie - there had been a habit by some writers and very evident in earlier plays - Shakespeare and other playwrights - to have a small play within a play. Trollop does use many references to Hamlet. Hamlet does ask some strolling players to perform the Murder of Gonzago, that appears to have little to do with the goings on in the main story and yet, there is always a sublet shadow of some aspect of the main story.

There are few other opportunities in Trollop's story to bring in seamlessly a secondary group of characters, who are temporary to the story so that the 'garden party' or 'fair' arranged by the Thorne's is a perfect venue especially, that it includes games etc from an earlier time in English History when the class system had less players.

It is still spritzed among Brits the deep divide of class - just as we are becoming more tolerant of race but there are still issues - issues of race differences to the US is parallel to class difference in Britain.

Before the Civil Rights acts and the integration of schools in the late 60s and 70s the lack of professional jobs and the large amount of poverty was typical in the Black Community. It would have been a shock of complete disbelief to find a Black neighborhood of 100s of $500,000 + priced homes as there is in for instance Atlanta - During the years before WWII seeing a Black man or woman dressed similarly to a white couple meant they were in show business or underworld activities.

That kind of viewpoint of differences is basic to Britain over class. We can make in fun or think it silly or judge any way we would like but it is serious to the Brits - the schools you attend, the way you dress, even to the way you talk, your hobbies, your topic of conversation, your friends, are all poster board signs of your class.  On the surface being the active owner of a large country estate working side by side with the game keeper or others who tend the land seems like they are amiable friends and yet, they both know their class and place far and above any system of filial relationship within the jobs. That side by system between owner, usually a noblemen, and supervisor or hired hand, whose job is often inherited from past workers on the estate is a working relationship that is dependent on traditional class boundaries far more than employer and employee.

And so, this little vignette, that Trollop includes shows how within the lower class (their language and how they describe proper dress is the tip off), within this lower class of folks attached to the land, there is a level of class within class based on association. Like the many who instead of using their extra income to build a healthy investment portfolio or acquire more land, use it to buy the trappings of a wealthier lifestyle with hopes of gaining admission to the next level, based on owning the trappings, so they can then have their sons and (since the later half of the 20th century) their daughters considered for admission to the schools and opportunities that allow them to climb a ladder of success.

We as a nation did it when we decided high school was to prepare students for collage and collage became the only worthwhile goal so that schools were stripped of industrial classes and the status of mechanics, plumbers, electricians, cosmetologist, even massage therapists, not only have less pay than a job requiring a collage education but, they are socially considered among a lower class - In the US class is not as important and all classes participate in positions like school board or putting on a community event - and judging things like a 4H project or a baking contest is not reserved only for the wealthy or even the collage educated where as, in Britain that would be normal.

And so, what I see in this chapter Lookalofts and Greenacres ( :D ::) their names give them away) is a bit of class one-upmanship and the squabbles among those who judge others because of their desire to improve their family's lot in life one way versus, the 'judging' parties chosen way. All this station of life is a counter and shadow-squabble to the shenanigans for position among the clergy and highlights the various class levels of clergy; Bishop versus the Dean, versus the Chaplin versus the lowly Warden etc. (I missed a few steps) - The Lookalofts and Greenacres are showing us how these levels of class importance play out among the clergy in how each are addressed, their levels of income, if they wear a suit or a robe or a surplice when they preach, whom they marry and that partner's family's class which is noted by the way the wife dresses etc etc. (big difference in how Eleanore and Mrs. Gravely dress as compared to Mrs. Quiverful) The class   differences are within the church just as, the class differences are within a certain class as well as, the class differences over all.

The top of this food chain starts with the crown and then those families whose noble ancestry was established before the fifteenth and sixteenth century when the head of the family was predominant supporting the crown and were in return given title, status, land along with the obligation to fight in any war in order to protect the king and to collect the taxes that financed the crown/government. Originally, the higher class were these nobles, the church and the military. Later, merchants and scholars according to wealth and success were elevated to this higher level and their children also attended the established public schools, that we call private schools. 

As to farmers, even those with larger land holdings, consorting with the likes of Mr. Thorne, whose family was probably among the nobility, is jumping many steps in the class system - The milk of human kindness mentioned is the way Trollop alludes to the nature of all the nudity that is so offensive to those who think as the puritans but, for sure denotes their class status that did not include dressing as the likes of the Stanhopes.

Knowing this class structure helps to understand further the humor in the film when Bertie befriends a drinking yokel and they are both lying on some hay as if equal and friends. No different than any white kid who befriends a black kid in school, back in the 1960s when the first Blacks were attending what were all white schools. (One thing to play together outside school, that happened all the time. Another, to be openly friendly in the formality of a tax based institution or within a business.)

 ;) all that to say it is a play within a play and it shows how some attempt to climb the ladder in a class structure and how those, who choose not to make the jump or, who were passed over by those that could elevate, would bad mouth those involved on both class levels and consider any effort to advance into the next class level as colluding with the lofty.

PatH

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #174 on: November 02, 2017, 03:20:48 PM »
Finally I'm back in Bethesda, with good internet access, and finally over the jet lag, but I'm still not caught up; every time I almost make it, we go on to a new section.

But I can backtrack, and put in some little bits that struck me as particularly amusing or relevant.

At first I wondered if any of the characters except Mr. Harding actually had any faith; they are so focussed on power and politics and nothing else.  When we finally see specific religious belief, it's in Mr. Slope, and it's rather funny:

"And here the author must beg it to be remembered that Mr. Slope was not in all things a bad man.  He believed in the religion which he taught, harsh, unpalatable, uncharitable as that religion was.  He believed those he wished to get under his hoof, the Grantlys and Gwynnes of the church, to be the enemies of that religion.  He believed himself to be a pillar of strength, destined to do great things, and with that subtle, selfish, ambiguous sophistry to which the minds of all men are so subject, he had taught himself to think that in doing much for the promotion of his own interests, he was doing much also for the promotion of religion."

Later. when we get to Mr. Arabin, the paragon, he takes his faith very seriously, and wrestles mightily with the details of his belief.

PatH

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #175 on: November 02, 2017, 03:33:14 PM »
Barb, we were writing at the same time.  Even in British science fiction, in made up societies of the future, you see this class awareness more than in American sci-fi.

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #176 on: November 02, 2017, 03:44:06 PM »
Whoops Pat here I was responding to your first post and now you can explain how class structure is a given for the Brits - Do not read science fiction so that is a factoid.

Yes, Pat the story is showing the Clergy as typical professionals who vie for power and income in any organization - we are seldom faced with this fighting over loaves and fishes as Jonathan called it but once we get beyond, this is a story of an organization, here to fore, heavily blanketed, so that we forget the subtleties of behavior used to advance are practiced among men regardless, clergy or climbing the corporate ladder. 

Sorta hits us between the eye doesn't it - and maybe that is why we see so easily the humor.  Our preconceived concept of the clergy is blown up by the story. Love it - not only the story but how shock is creating the atmosphere for humor among readers - and here we are 150 years after the story was published still shocked and still seeing the humor and still able to see some of these goings on among some of the clergy today - funny.   

PatH

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #177 on: November 02, 2017, 04:14:23 PM »
There are all sorts of little funny bits tucked away.  When describing Miss Thorne, generous and amiable: "Her virtues were too numerous to describe, and not sufficiently interesting to deserve description."

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #178 on: November 02, 2017, 04:16:21 PM »
Ha - just thought - thanks Pat your earlier post helped me see another way of describing Slope - He was attempting to advance to the status of the lofty both in his job and his attraction to women. One goal equates to the other in his lofty ambitions so how he fairs in one will most likely forcaste how he fairs in the other.

bellamarie

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #179 on: November 03, 2017, 12:15:08 AM »
Welcome back PatH.!!  Can’t wait to see more posts from you as you catch up. 

Barb, Interesting point about Mr. Slope.  I am forecasting cloudy, high winds, and possibly severe weather ahead by my estimation.  All the elements, for the perfect storm!  And now that I think about it, we are preparing for severe weather this Sunday as a cold front pushes it’s way in.  Oh how I could analogize the coming chapters to our coming weather, but I will spare you all, and stop here.  But I will say, batten down the hatches Mr. Slope, and the Ohio Valley. 

Hmmm.... a story within a story.  By golly, I think you’ve got it.  Our author didn’t want to leave anyone out, so he has the lowly squabble with each other, about who gets to sit amongst the royal.  And yes, our clergymen of all ranks are squabbling and jockeying for positions of power and wealth. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #180 on: November 03, 2017, 04:18:38 AM »
Does anyone know if a movie was made of this story and name? I am having a hard time keeping track of who is who -- my old age??

kidsal

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #181 on: November 03, 2017, 04:26:00 AM »
Found British TV versions on You Tube!!

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #182 on: November 03, 2017, 05:17:06 AM »
Kidsal it was a PBS series - is that the one you found - there are 7 installments to the series. Glad to see your post - hope you enjoy the movie and the read...

here is the first in the series which starts with the first book in Trollop's series which is The Warden. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDawi-HzNF8

bellamarie

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #183 on: November 03, 2017, 10:06:15 AM »
Kidsal,  The Youtube video will help with putting faces to the characters, but it will not give you true appreciation for Trollope’s humor, or cover all of the story.  After watching it, and reading the book, I realized the movie is so shortened and watered down.  Good luck!

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #184 on: November 03, 2017, 12:08:17 PM »
Kidsal, I'm always having to think hard about who's who too.  It doesn't help when Trollope says things like "the archdeacon and his sister-in-law".  (What? Who? Oh, yes, Dr. Grantly and Mrs. Bold)  It's like Russian novels where everybody has a first name, last name, patronymic, and nickname.

PatH

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #185 on: November 03, 2017, 12:13:13 PM »
Bellamarie
Quote
What is the purpose of Chapter 39?
I haven't read it yet, but the writer of the afterward in my book says Trollope is trying to soften the fact that he's poking so much fun at the clergy by also poking fun at other groups.  He finds the whole episode tedious, a flaw in the book.

bellamarie

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #186 on: November 03, 2017, 04:24:14 PM »
Searching around I came across this site which pretty much says what I had figured out myself, about chapter 39:

http://www.bookrags.com/studyguide-barchester-towers/chapanal039.html#gsc.tab=0

Chapter 39 Summary
The social climbing Lookalofts have stirred up a lot of anger among the tenant farmers because they have joined the upper class party. Though the Lookalofts are ignored by the upper classes, they will most likely use their inclusion there as proof that they are better than the other tenant farmers. Many of the tenants are jealous of the Lookalofts while others claim that they would not bother going to so much trouble to mix with the upper classes.

Chapter 39 Analysis
Again this chapter has little to do with the overarching themes and plotlines of the story and instead concentrates on characters outside of the main story. Their impressions of the upper classes are not completely positive or completely negative and it is stressed that they have their own social problems and issues of which the upper class is not aware.

Interesting PatH., I think I agree with your writer who finds the whole episode tedious, a flaw in the book.  There were a few chapters in this book I could give the same consideration to as well.

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Jonathan

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #187 on: November 03, 2017, 04:39:50 PM »
I'm almost through. What a story! Aren't these Barchester clergymen a sorry lot! Barchester. 'This vile town,' in the opinion of one of the Stanhopes. For this they came back from Italy? Is it any wonder that the women feel they are given reason to 'advise' their husbands. Mrs Proudie is a shining example. I'm to the point where even Dr Grantly, the Archdeacon, is set straight by his wife.

'Batten down the hatches.' 'And yes, our clergymen of all ranks are squabbling and jockeying for positions of power and wealth.'  Bellamarie, I like your analogy.What a storm.

The satire is intense. But so is the humor. Also wonderfully light. Eleanor shows her stuff with that painful slap she gives Mr Slope, but is left devastated by the whole experience. She finds consolation in her baby.

'This kind of consolation from the world's deceit is very common. Mothers  obtain it from their children, and men from their dogs. Some men even do so from their walking sticks, which  is just as rational.'

And the author makes it so easy to remember who's who. How can you forget the doctor waiting on the dying dean, with a name like Dr Fillgrave? I'll put off seeing the film. I hope I'm not disappointed. Reading the book is cracking me up. Bertie is going back to Italy, to his studio, wondering if he has enough marble there to carve himself a tombstone!

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #188 on: November 03, 2017, 05:39:33 PM »
Love the posts - no time till tomorrow but this story really has the one-upmanship we play to get ahead down to a T - I'm thinking of the whole game teens play to be included in various groups - marketing teams can learn their trade by reading Trollop  ;)...

PatH

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #189 on: November 03, 2017, 09:18:52 PM »
Eleanor Bold is personally attractive as someone to marry--beautiful, good-natured, intelligent, but the attraction for Bertie and Slope is that she has 1000 pounds a year.  It's interesting to see how British law played out at that time for a woman with money.

Married women could not own property.  In fact, when a woman married, she ceased to have a separate legal identity.  She was a part of her husband, and anything she had owned became his.  If she managed to earn anything after marriage, such as by writing, it was his.  She couldn't even write a will without his permission.

The possibility for abuse is obvious.  Marry her for her money and spend it all, or keep her under submission by not allowing her any spending money, etc.  There were ways to protect a woman.  You didn't leave her money, you left her a "life interest".  She couldn't touch the capital, but it produced income for her until she died, at which point it went to whoever was specified, usually her heirs.  Marriage settlements could require that she be given spending money, or keep some property for her own use.  This problem is a factor in Wilkie Collins' mysteries of that time, "The Moonstone" and "The Woman in White".  In one, a suitor backs off when he learns that he can only use his prospective bride's income, and not get a big lumpof money which he urgently needs for a debt.  In the other, a lazy guardian is unwilling to bother to protect his charge, so the woman is totally stripped of her money by the fortune hunter who marries her.

This problem was finally addressed in 1882 by the Married Women's Property Act:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Married_Women%27s_Property_Act_1882

bellamarie

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #190 on: November 04, 2017, 08:47:02 AM »
Yes, our Eleanor may seem the sweet, soft spoken, Christian woman, the feminine copy of her father Rev. Harding, but don't let that fool you.  Mr.  Slope was determined to ignore her protests, and continue with the proposal, and she indeed give him a slap in the face! A wallop indeed.  He needed to stay away from the party for a bit so the redness could subside. 

Interesting points you all are making about the women Tollope has created in Barchester.  Even the crippled Signora Neroni is strong minded, and has no handicap when it comes to getting men to do what she wants, by using her beauty.  Mrs. Quiverful was not going to stand back and watch her husband be rolled over, and lose the placement of warden, after promised it.  Mrs. Proudie is a force to be reckoned with, when the Bishop tried to stand his ground, she used the bedroom to make him come around to her will.  Even shy Charlotte was attempting to yank poor Bertie around, forcing him to propose to Eleanor.  The men hold all the titles, yet the women seem to hold the power behind the man.

PatH., what an interesting bit of information about the possibility of abuse, due to the lack of identity, and ownership a woman had before 1882, when they passed the Married Women's Property Act.  From all the novels I have read before this, which I will admit are not many, it seemed women, even with strong willed personalities like Jane Austen's Emma, did not mind the men having the power and money, since they were happy with doing idle handwork, visiting neighbors,  throwing parties or traveling.  They like Mrs. Proudie, knew there was a weakness in their husband or father, that could convince him to come around to their thinking.  But, the passing of the Married Women's Act, fairly gave them their identity as an individual person, as well as ownership to property.

Jonathan, the names as you point out are to help you remember who is who.  I found them quite hilarious! 

Chapter 40 is where all the action really takes place, you get the sense all things are going to fall into place, and you feel the ending of the book is nearing. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #191 on: November 04, 2017, 10:50:51 PM »
A couple of things I noticed while reading - way back in the letters that Slope wrote to the newspapers he mentioned their Mercuries - we learned while reading Bleak House that torch bearing runners were discharged to run ahead of horse drawn carriages at night to guide the way and to alert the drivers to any deep holes and ruts in the road and they were also used to run messages from location to location - and so Slope speaks of the Newspaper's Mercuries

OH yes, how we have experienced this trick - p298 " Wise people, when they are wrong, always put themselves right by finding fault with the people against whom they have sinned." Never saw that bit in writing but I know it well...

And then this bit - many see this as our economic and political predicament today left to us by the Deep State of oil and bank barons - "the cigar has been smoked out, and we are the ashes."

Evidently the reference to Mrs. Jones and Miss Smith is as we today would say, 'every Tom Dick and Harry.'

But the quote that really got to me and explained the mindset of those who I have in my mind questioned their behavior and attitude - "...one of those beyond the reach of Christian charity, and was therefore able to enjoy the luxury of hating her..." Wow, that remark said tons to me of how, what we think would be Christian thoughts and kindness are withheld and at times at the end of some horrid behavior... they are not considered worthy and this is the way around it... Wow...

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #192 on: November 05, 2017, 12:04:36 AM »
love this illustration of the three suitors and Eleanore at the Thorne's 'Breakfast' -
 

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #193 on: November 05, 2017, 12:07:33 AM »
Thought this was helpful



BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #194 on: November 05, 2017, 12:10:06 AM »

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #195 on: November 05, 2017, 12:11:27 AM »

bellamarie

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #196 on: November 05, 2017, 12:29:22 AM »
Jonathan, are these the books you have collected of Trollope?

While I can say I have enjoyed Barchester Towers, I can't say I am ready too soon, to read another of his books. 

Barb, Thanks for the clarification of the ranks of the two churches.  The pyramid really makes it simple.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #197 on: November 05, 2017, 01:33:47 AM »

Welcome to our Fall read,
Trollop's, Barchester Towers


November 5 - November 11
Discussing, Chapter 40 - to - Chapter 53

Barchester is an ancient but imaginary twenty-ninth dioceses to the medieval parochial and cathedral system of the Anglican Church in Britain.

Central to the Victorian characters who occupy this factitious community is social conflict; both the trivial and the important are presented with equal respect and noble intent. 

"'Wilt thou have this woman as thy wedded wife,' and 'wilt thou have this man to thy wedded husband, to live together according to God's ordinance?'

We have no doubt that they will keep their promises, -- the more especially as the Signora Neroni had left Barchester before the ceremony was performed."


Please post your impressions, questions, observations and research ---

The schedule for our discussion    
Oct. 8 - 14 ---- Chapter 1, Who will be the new Bishop? -  to - Chapter 9, The Stanhope Family
Oct. 15 - 21 --- Chapter 10, Mrs Proudie's Receptions - Commenced - to - Chapter 19, Barchester by Moonlight
Oct. 22 - 28 --- Chapter 20, Mr Arabin - to - Chapter 27, A Love Scene
Oct. 29 - Nov. 4 --- Chapter 28, Mr. Bold is entertained by Dr and Mrs Grantly at Plumstead - to - Chapter 39, The Lookalofts and the Greenacres.
Nov. 5 - 11 --- Chapter 40, Ullathorne Sports - Act II - to - Chapter 53, Conclusion -
Discussion Leader: Barb

bellamarie

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #198 on: November 05, 2017, 09:23:49 AM »
I was glancing closer to the books by Trollope above and it amazes me how many of them are 500+ pages.  He sure had lots of time for writing, and a whole lot of creative imagination!

So this week we wrap up Barchester Towers, engagement bans are posted, positions are assigned, and trunks are packed for travels to Italy.  The question on my mind is, where does the new positions leave the Angelican church of England?  Does it progress into the next century, or does it go along as usual?  Barb made an interesting point earlier, about this being a story within a story, so we shall see how the stories end, in these next chapters.  After watching Downton Abbey on PBS Masterpiece, I have to say, I think Barchester Towers videos did not come close to capturing my interest, like Downton Abby did.  Oh how I miss the Crawley family......
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #199 on: November 05, 2017, 11:22:30 AM »
The Crawley family it is not is it Bellamarie I have Julian Fellowes's Belgravia but never read it - I think with that comparison I will read it next to see what the difference is between the two writers. Something tells me there will be more action with fewer words describing the action and less irony exposing the underbelly of an institution in Belgravia

How I think Trollope wins hands down is the references he makes to the writings of other authors - the only author that I can remember who could match Trollop one for one was Byatt in Possession

I thought prehaps Joanna Trollope was related but no, just the name but no relationship - her one book Parson Harding's Daughter I also thought was coincidental but the plot is very different taking place in India.

Well onward - unlike you and Jonathan I have not read through to the end.

How are you doing Kidsal - were you able to see all 7 installments of The Barchester Chronicles - the basis of the story is well acted capturing the personalities but so much of how they muddle through is missing especially Arabin's inner dialogues.

Thanks Pat for the background on women's legal rights - the law seems like another subject yet, it really did have a way of not only affecting women's rights but how they conducted themselves. Woman had to learn young how to stay on the good side of the men, placated when possible as do the Bishop's daughters. And to have any voice, there had to be subterfuge even among strong women like Mrs. Quiverful. Interesting, in spite of being second place citizens, bottom line with all the talk between the men about Slope it is Mrs. Proudie who controls the downfall of Slope.

A P.S. off the subject - it is so overcaste here today there is no way the hour's difference is showing itself - it is the slant of the sun that makes the difference aannnddd my tummy - oh oh - I guess it will take a couple of days - thank goodness I do not work a 9: to 5: with a set lunch time.