Author Topic: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online  (Read 21539 times)

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2017, 03:38:21 PM »

Ushering in and Welcome to our Fall read,
Trollop's, Barchester Towers


Our First Week, October 9 - October 15
Discussing, Chapter I through Chapter 9


Barchester is an ancient but imaginary twenty-ninth dioceses to the medieval parochial and cathedral system of the Anglican Church in Britain.

Trollope writes a story as a dance with all the complexity suggested by the details. 

The Victorian characters who occupy this factitious community are hilarious, absurd, introduced with usual detachment, even contempt: however, we find they stand for old hospitality, bonds, loyalty, and the countryside of
Trollop's Britain.

"— Mr Harding stands for – outward beauty, even ritual for its own sake, and he is egalitarian – “all porters and stokers and guards and brakesman ought to be able to go to church”. The stopping of fun and travel on the one day a week Victorians had off a bete noire of most novelists."

A few questions to help pull us in ---

1] The question of choosing a new Bishop is not based on merit but an act of political chance. What is the real struggle that is at play naming the new Bishop?

2] What interesting detail did you learn about the Archdeacon Grantly

3] Which of the newspapers mentioned have a more liberal slant?

4] What interesting and relevant details do we learn about Dr. Proudie and his wife.

5] After reviewing the first paragraphs of each of our 9 chapters, how do they each open the tone of the chapters? Were the first paragraphs written as a Teaser, Autobiographical, Conversational, Announcing Facts, or Setter a Scene.

6] What story line does Trollop use to introduce the scope of Archdeacon Grantly's responsibilities to the Cathedral?

7] What is the nature of oppostion between Dr. Grantly and Mr. Slope

8] What message does Dr. Stanhope's character represent explaining the traditional High Church 
 
9] What are some of the more beautiful sounding sentences.

10] What sentences have you found that are a pithy of words of wisdom? 

The schedule for our discussion starting on Monday, October 8:   
Oct. 8 - 14 ---- Chapter 1, Who will be the new Bishop? -  to - Chapter 9, The Stanhope Family
Oct. 15 - 21 --- Chapter 10, Mrs Proudie's Receptions - Commenced - to - Chapter 19, Barchester by Moonlight
Oct. 22 - 28 --- Chapter 20, Mr Arabin - to - Chapter 27, A Love Scene
Oct. 29 - Nov. 4 --- Chapter 28, Mr. Bold is entertained by Dr and Mrs Grantly at Plumstead - to - Chapter 35,  Miss Thorne's Fête Champêtre
Nov. 5 - 11 --- Chapter 36, Ullathorne Sports - Act I - to - Chapter 43, Mr and Mrs  Quiverful are made happy Mr. Slope is encouraged by the Press
Nov. 12 - 18 --- Chapter 44, Mrs Bold at Home - to - Chapter 53, Conclusion -

Discussion Leader: Barb
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2017, 04:35:34 PM »
youtb,  I am so glad you went to the video, and feel a bit less bogged down.  I too found it difficult to get into the book, but after watching the videos and being able to place faces with names it has helped me as well.

MKaren, Thanks so much for mentioning the differences in conservatism and liberalism in this era.  Well now this was a real hoot to learn:
Quote
Liberals were made up of primarily the middle class.  While the liberals sound like the good guys in the nineteenth century, it is important to keep in mind that they did not believe in giving power to women, the poor nor the uneducated.


My how things are so much more different than what we would see as liberals here in the U.S. today.  And Conservatives want less government involvement today.  Okay, that's all the politics I will even attempt to address while reading this book. 

Barb, your recipe makes me want to bake.....only I am addicted to pumpkin spice this time of year, I have all the ingredients to back pumpkin spice bread!
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

mabel1015j

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #42 on: October 07, 2017, 01:57:00 PM »
Laughed at this

“Bishop Grantly died as he had lived, peaceably, slowly, without pain and without excitement. The breath ebbed from him almost imperceptibly, and for a month before his death it was a question whether he were alive or dead.”

Seems to me only someone who has most things in life taken care of for him - like a bishop - could fit that description.  ;)

Also, in the first pages he mentioned “Lazarus” at Oxford. I tried to look that up, but got only this picture of a chapel that is labelled “New College.” Can anyone explain it further? Maybe it’s not important, but caught my eye and brain.

https://www.oxforduniversityimages.com/wmpix/new/000/new000013-01-The%20Chapel%20and%20organ%20loft%20New%20College%20Oxford.jpg


Jean

Jean

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #43 on: October 07, 2017, 03:15:05 PM »
Jean, Lazarus is a fictional Oxford college... the irony is it is named after the beggar in Luke 16: 19
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2016

Sir Lamada Mewnew and Sir Omicron Pie are named after five successive letters in the Greek alphabet: lambda, mu, nu, omicron and pi.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #44 on: October 07, 2017, 03:21:41 PM »
Jean the killing of cats refers to Westward Ho! by Charles Kingsley, "More ways of killing a cat than choking her with cream"
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

CallieOK

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #45 on: October 07, 2017, 03:33:01 PM »
Sir Lamada Mewnew and Sir Omicron Pie are named after five successive letters in the Greek alphabet: lambda, mu, nu, omicron and pi.
Very clever, isn't it?  Reminded me of the book title "Ella Minnow Pea" (but I can't remember what it was about)

 It took a while for me to get into the rhythm of Trollope's writing.  Helps to kind of "read it aloud in my head".
I've decided I need to take notes to help me remember characters and their connections. 

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #46 on: October 07, 2017, 03:45:23 PM »
Great Idea Callie - soon it will all flow but to start there are many characters - amazing how simple names have a symbolic story behind them that fits the overall story Trollop is telling.

Our discussion of the book will start on Monday so enjoy your weekend reading away the chapters for the week - so much to talk about in just these first chapters -
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #47 on: October 07, 2017, 03:49:12 PM »
Found this Jean-Paul Satre quote that I love as an ironic remark about the characters in this story... "I have no need for good souls: an accomplice is what I wanted."  Electra to her brother Orestes, Act 2
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #48 on: October 07, 2017, 07:05:35 PM »
Callie, I had the same trouble with characters.  My yellowed paperback has the list in the front I made when I first read it, but I'm making a new one too.

Barb--love your Sartre.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #49 on: October 07, 2017, 09:21:57 PM »
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #50 on: October 08, 2017, 12:55:53 AM »
Barb,  I actually am going to buy myself a Bible that has the side for taking notes.  Wouldn't it be great to have books like this?

Callie, a book called, "Ella Minnow Pea" as in the alphabet L, M, N, O, P.  How clever!

Barb, So Lazarus is a fictional Oxford college, just as Barchester is a fictional town in England.  And the character Mr. Quiverfull:

The character's name is inspired by Psalm 127: "Children are a heritage from the Lord…Like arrows in the hands of a warrior…Blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them."[4]

Seems our Mr. Trollpe not only has a sense of humor, but also is taking from the Bible for his book.

I too am having a problem with keeping up with the characters so here is a cheat sheet to help us along our way:

Characters of the novel:

The High Church faction

Archdeacon Grantly, Dr Theophilus Grantly, is the son of the former Bishop of Barchester, Dr Grantly senior, who dies at the start of the novel. Married to Susan Harding, he has three sons (Charles James, Henry, and Samuel) and two daughters (Florinda and Griselda) and lives at Plumstead Episcopi. His sister-in-law is Mrs Eleanor Bold, née Harding.
Mrs Susan Grantly, Mr Harding's elder daughter and the Archdeacon's wife.
Mr Septimus Harding is the meek, elderly precentor of Barchester and Rector of the church of St. Cuthbert's near the Cathedral Close. He was formerly Warden of Hiram's Hospital, but resigned in The Warden.
Mr Francis Arabin, vicar of St Ewold, Fellow of Lazarus College and former professor of poetry at Oxford University. He is a former follower of John Henry Newman and adheres to the High Church faction of the Anglican Church. Arabin is sought out by Dr Grantly as an ally against the evangelical faction of Bishop Proudie, his wife and chaplain Obadiah Slope.
Dr Gwynne, Master of Lazarus College, another ally.

The Low Church faction

Bishop Proudie, a henpecked, weak-willed bishop who is constantly influenced by his wife Mrs Proudie and his chaplain Obadiah Slope concerning the matters of the see.
Mrs Olivia Proudie, his wife. A proud, vulgar, domineering wife, who promotes evangelical causes such as Sunday schools, and is adamant in eliminating high-church rituals.
Mr Obadiah Slope, a wheedling oily chaplain who has much influence over Bishop Proudie. Midway in the novel Slope decides that he will marry Mrs Eleanor Bold (née Harding), and sets about courting her. Formerly Mrs Proudie's ally, he comes into conflict with Mrs Proudie over the wardenship of Hiram's Hospital and she regards him as a traitor. The narrator speculates that he is a lineal descendant of Doctor Slop from the novel Tristram Shandy.

Others

Mrs Eleanor Bold, widow of John Bold with an infant son. She is Mr Septimus Harding's younger daughter. She has three potential suitors in Barchester Towers: Mr Obadiah Slope, Mr Bertie Stanhope and Mr Francis Arabin.
Dr Vesey Stanhope is the rector of Crabtree Canonicorum and of Stogpingum, both in the diocese of Barchester and a prebendary of Barchester Cathedral. He and his family lived for twelve years in Italy before being recalled by Bishop Proudie on Obadiah Slope's advice. He has two daughters, Charlotte and Madeline, and a son, Bertie (Ethelbert).
Signora Madeline Vesey Neroni née Madeline Stanhope is the beautiful younger daughter of Dr Vesey Stanhope. Lamed by her abusive Italian husband, she is a cripple who needs to be carried around the house on a sofa, although it does not stop her constantly flirting with all men. She has a young daughter.
Ethelbert "Bertie" Stanhope is the only son of Dr Vesey Stanhope. An idling, carefree man who never settles down in anything he does, although he is a gifted artist, and who borrows and spends a great deal and earns nothing. His sister Charlotte advises him to woo the rich and beautiful widow Eleanor Bold.
Charlotte Stanhope is the polymath elder daughter of Dr Vesey Stanhope; she challenges Eleanor Bold to comment on the theological arguments concerning intelligent life on other worlds as presented by William Whewell and David Brewster.[3] She is the manager of the family and a good friend of Eleanor Bold until Eleanor realises Charlotte is the primary instigator of her brother wooing her.
Mr Quiverful, a poor clergyman with 14 children who becomes the new Warden of Hiram's Hospital. [a]
Mrs Letty Quiverful, his wife.
Wilfred Thorne, the squire of St Ewold's. A bachelor of about fifty who comes under the charms of Signora Neroni.
Miss Monica Thorne, his spinster sister of about sixty, who is an extreme traditionalist. She throws a party at their residence for the notables of Barsetshire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barchester_Towers

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

hats

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #51 on: October 08, 2017, 06:31:26 AM »
The Victorian cake looks delicious. Will write the recipe down. Have read many of the posts. Wonderful.

bellamarie

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #52 on: October 08, 2017, 09:25:06 AM »
Welcome hats!!!  Please stick around and give us your thoughts on Trollpe and his satire.  That cake sure does look yummy!!  I have an enormous sweet tooth, even when I know I should resist. 

The clock is ticking down til we begin our discussion..... tick, tock, tick, tock.   

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #53 on: October 08, 2017, 11:38:47 AM »
Bellamarie how is watching the Youtube of the 1982 PBS series of Barchester Chronicles coming along - finally read that it was the highlights they depict and the character Slope is written to look different than the Alan Rickman version. So it appears we are in for much more of this story as we read. 

That was a great list of characters by name. Miss seeing the name of Mr. Bold but of course he died - that exchange with him getting the story for the newspaper I thought so like today. It's all about getting the story regardless guilt or innocence and then shaming the unaware. 

Pat you have your yellowed copy with the list of characters  - how wonderful is that...

Hats so glad to see you peek in - hope you can join us - the book is online if you would like to read along with us this fall.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #54 on: October 08, 2017, 11:43:34 AM »
We are two years after the fact - 2015 was the two hundred years since the birth of Trollop and in honor the magazine The New Yorker ran this article about Trollop.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/05/04/trollope-trending
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #55 on: October 08, 2017, 01:07:08 PM »
Barb,  I agree, Mr. Harding was wrongly accused, and it was very sad how the signers went along to bring him down for the sake of greed, and the newspaper was the primary source of spreading the falsehood. "Fake News" like today. It seems the relationship between Slope and Eleanor was also damaged from the attempt to take down her father. Some things never change. I so liked Mr. Harding, in the video.  I noticed Sarah, in the video The Warden, who seems to meddle in everyone's affairs, and plays matchmaker, is not on this list of characters as well.  I have not completed watching all the series so maybe I will find out what happened to her.  She seemed to be crippled, always sitting in a chair as visitors came to her home.

The New Yorker article is a great find! 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #56 on: October 08, 2017, 01:46:13 PM »
Goodness - the man wrote 47 novels plus short stories and other articles - whew...
Here is the link to the Trollope Society ---   https://trollopesociety.org/
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

CallieOK

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #57 on: October 08, 2017, 03:13:32 PM »
Barb,  off the subject but.....  FYI   "Ella Minnow Pea"   https://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-9673701-6-3

I'm in Chapter 6 of "...Barchester" and the character relationships are beginning to come together. 

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #58 on: October 08, 2017, 04:20:30 PM »
Haha I wonder Callie if Ella Minnow Pea was written before tweets took off - looks like published in 2001 but do not remember when tweets became the thing, where so many words became letters. Drives me crazy with all the abbreviations and the only clue being the first letter of the word. It is like a second language.

My grandson just left after being here for 3 days to attend ACL - he had a great time, super bands and last night they stayed out really late going to 6th street where they heard more music -  and I am in tears - I did not realize how much I miss doing all the little things for someone like making up a bed and preparing meals and and and - I used to at least fix a weekly meal for my good friend that we shared on Wednesday evening but now it is only me - but it was more than fixing meals - the automatic thinking that goes with caring for someone's comfort - I also realize I just speak aloud whatever is going through my head - and so I ramble about things that have no interest to anyone - oh dear - need to get out more and not just for work that has its own language. Makes Reverend Harding's bowing his non existent cello easy to understand - alone and when he is thinking I bet he puts his thoughts to the tempo of music and it is such a habit he does it unconsciously.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #59 on: October 08, 2017, 07:19:01 PM »
I had to crack up watching The Warden, when Mr. Harding had only his bow and was using his arm as instrument, while he was being spoken to.  Barb, you should consider taking in an exchange student.  Or would that be too intrusive? 

Callie, good for you!  I’m still having a difficult time on the first few chapters. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #60 on: October 09, 2017, 03:26:47 AM »

Ushering in and Welcome to our Fall read,
Trollop's, Barchester Towers


Our First Week, October 9 - October 15
Discussing, Chapter I through Chapter 9


Barchester is an ancient but imaginary twenty-ninth dioceses to the medieval parochial and cathedral system of the Anglican Church in Britain.

Trollope writes a story as a dance with all the complexity suggested by the details. 

The Victorian characters who occupy this factitious community are hilarious, absurd, introduced with usual detachment, even contempt: however, we find they stand for old hospitality, bonds, loyalty, and the countryside of
Trollop's Britain.

"— Mr Harding stands for – outward beauty, even ritual for its own sake, and he is egalitarian – “all porters and stokers and guards and brakesman ought to be able to go to church”. The stopping of fun and travel on the one day a week Victorians had off a bete noire of most novelists."

A few questions to help pull us in ---

1] The question of choosing a new Bishop is not based on merit but an act of political chance. What is the real struggle that is at play naming the new Bishop?

2] What interesting detail did you learn about the Archdeacon Grantly

3] Which of the newspapers mentioned have a more liberal slant?

4] What interesting and relevant details do we learn about Dr. Proudie and his wife.

5] After reviewing the first paragraphs of each of our 9 chapters, how do they each open the tone of the chapters? Were the first paragraphs written as a Teaser, Autobiographical, Conversational, Announcing Facts, or Setter a Scene.

6] What story line does Trollop use to introduce the scope of Archdeacon Grantly's responsibilities to the Cathedral?

7] What is the nature of oppostion between Dr. Grantly and Mr. Slope

8] What message does Dr. Stanhope's character represent explaining the traditional High Church 
 
9] What are some of the more beautiful sounding sentences.

10] What sentences have you found that are a pithy of words of wisdom?

The schedule for our discussion starting on Monday, October 8:   
Oct. 8 - 14 ---- Chapter 1, Who will be the new Bishop? -  to - Chapter 9, The Stanhope Family
Oct. 15 - 21 --- Chapter 10, Mrs Proudie's Receptions - Commenced - to - Chapter 19, Barchester by Moonlight
Oct. 22 - 28 --- Chapter 20, Mr Arabin - to - Chapter 27, A Love Scene
Oct. 29 - Nov. 4 --- Chapter 28, Mr. Bold is entertained by Dr and Mrs Grantly at Plumstead - to - Chapter 35,  Miss Thorne's Fête Champêtre
Nov. 5 - 11 --- Chapter 36, Ullathorne Sports - Act I - to - Chapter 43, Mr and Mrs  Quiverful are made happy Mr. Slope is encouraged by the Press
Nov. 12 - 18 --- Chapter 44, Mrs Bold at Home - to - Chapter 53, Conclusion -

Discussion Leader: Barb
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Mkaren557

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #61 on: October 09, 2017, 09:35:03 AM »
Good Morning, Barbara.  Right now I am in my Latin class, but I will be back. I just will quickly say that  I love the narrator.  His comments on the charcters and the events in the text add another dimension to the story.  He talks directly to the reader and is not an objective bystander.  For instance in paragraph 4 of chapter 1, we learn that in the narrator's eyes Bishop Grantly's mirrors his life; "for a month before his death, it was a question whether he were alive or dead."  More later.

youetb

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #62 on: October 09, 2017, 12:41:15 PM »
Good Monday morning Barb et al

I am also in Latin this am BUT I keep getting pulled back to Barchester (don't let Ginny know) just kidding.
The opening paragraphs are Teasers and scene setters, Each chapter opens with some excitement that lures the reader in.  I find myself saying What! What! and laughing out loud.  Maybe  I just love the gossip of it  ;D
Have to add:  Thanks to the Mr Slope,"Apoplexy" must be a common ailment among the clergy and the congregation 
 

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #63 on: October 09, 2017, 03:02:10 PM »
The anxiety Dr. Grantly has over the speed of his father, the Bishop's death reminds me of what it must be like to be Prince Charles. Here he is at age 68 and his mother, Queen Elizabeth is still going strong.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #64 on: October 09, 2017, 03:15:19 PM »
Ha Ha funny - both Karen and Nancy not playing hooky but sneaking out of class - love it...

I too am trying to decide how Trollop makes this story a laugh outloud - I'm thinking part of it is his use of words that come across as dry humor rather than the flowery vocabulary of the Victorians.

I love what he lists as "the strongest points of baby perfection". Strongest points, can you believe? And so, the child is considered 'delightful' because - "he took his food with a will, struck out his toes merrily whenever his legs were uncovered, and did not have fits." I wonder what entailed having a fit? OH my, I guess just being a baby is not enough - oh oh oh...  ::)
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Jonathan

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #65 on: October 09, 2017, 03:54:23 PM »
This is going to be fun. Right on, Nancy. It's gossip from cover to cover.  The author is definitely out to charm his readers. Make confidantes out of them. What nicer way to do it than by kissing the babies. Latin was a passion with him. Caesar was the greatest man who ever lived. The Latin poets were divine. He admits to knowing nothing about Church matters or what goes on in a Cathedral Close, but found wandering about Salisbury Cathedral very inspiring. And he does find that putting his people into moral quandaries makes for a great story.

bellamarie

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #66 on: October 09, 2017, 04:28:01 PM »
MKaren, interestly you bring up how you like the narrator.  I was a bit inquinsitive as to exactly who the narrator is, which of course led me down the rabbit whole like Alice, to satisfy myself.  I found this which helped confirm what I too was feeling about the narrator and the author.

Trollope also makes use in his narrator of a subtle literary device that has become increasingly common over the last century or so. This is the so-called "style indirecte libre", by the use of which a narrator can move from third-person narrative to an internal viewpoint of a protagonist or to external commentary or description without the use of verbs that would mark these transitions, thus blurring the lines between narrator and protagonist and leaving uncertain where the omniscient narrator's viewpoint ends and that of the character begins.

http://www.writework.com/book-guides/barchester-towers-anthony-trollope/narration

So it seems Trollope not only could not resist injecting himself as the narrator, but I also read in my search we find a bit of himself in some of his characters.  Was he a bit of a narcissist?  I mean taking on writing about the Church of England, appointments within the hierarchy, and the government is not for the fain of heart.  I am finding myself liking him very much so.

Jonathan and Barb, we were posting at the same time.  Yes, I had to giggle about Karen and Nancy peeking in while in Latin class.  Shhh.... we won't tell on them.

Jonathan, as always you have a way with words that seems to get right to the heart of it.  Who can resist gossip?  Not me for sure! 

Poor Archdeacon Grantley, of course he would expect to be the next Bishop.  And no, I did not see him as sinful, overachieving, or over expecting a position that seemed to belong to him.  (I hope you can hear my jest in this.   ;D ;D)  I mean sitting beside his dying father hoping he would just give in and give up and die already.   ;D ;D

I began reading the book online and was able to dive right in.  Maybe there is something to be said about a yellow paged used, somewhat dowdy book cover and page......  it sure was not captivating me at all.  The bright light, white pages of my ipad text just seemed to make me want to keep on going even when my eyes were tired and wanted to stop a bit.  Technology....don't cha just love it!
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #67 on: October 10, 2017, 01:26:05 AM »
Jonathan, both you and Nancy see Trollop as Entertainment Tonight - who gets cut - who takes their feud to the next level - the tearful most memorable week - He plays fast and furious - she claims - I fulfilled all my dreams - all the actual headlines from today's Entertainment Tonight that can easily be applied to Barchester Chronicles ... you both nailed it and so funny.

owww yes, Bellamarie - the narrator is not a third-person but an the internal viewpoint of an external commentator/protagonist 'blurring the lines between narrator and protagonist' - you nailed that one for us...

Like you Bellamarie, I thought Archdeacon Grantly appeared over the top waiting for death to take his father - he appeared in my mind's eye every bit the typecast for the PBS series acted by Nigel Hawthorne - but then, having forgotten for a few moments Nigel Hawthorne's characterization I felt sympathy for what I saw as a softened and wounded Archdeacon after his hearing in the Cathedral, Slope preach what amounted to an extreme liberal and low church sermon. Within the bounds of decency he was limited in how to stop Slope and so, the chess games begin. Between the two, I guess I understand bluster over what I call, oily manipulation.   
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #68 on: October 10, 2017, 10:26:18 AM »
9] What are some of the more beautiful sounding sentences.

I have to give Trollope high marks for these paragraphs, while reading them I felt like I was reading Shakespeare's words of loved & lost:

Chapter 2

Poor Eleanor!  I cannot say that with me John Bold was ever a favourite.  I  never thought him worthy of the wife he had won.  But in her estimation he was most worthy.  Hers was one of those feminine hearts which cling to a husband, not with idolatry, for worship can admit of no defect in its idol, but with the perfect tenacity of ivy.  As the parasite plant will follow even the defects of the trunk which it embraces, so did Eleanor cling to and love the very faults of her husband. 

Could she even have admitted that he had a fault, his early death would have blotted out the memory of it.  She wept as for the loss of the most perfect treasure with which mortal woman had ever been endowed; for weeks after he was gone the idea of future happiness in this world was hateful to her; consolation, as it is called, was insupportable, and tears and sleep were her only relief. 

But God tempers the wind to the shorn lamb.  She knew that she had within her the living source of other cares.  She knew that there was to be created for her another subject of weal or woe, of unutterable joy or despairing sorrow, as God in his mercy might vouchsafe to her.


And then to read on and learn she is pregnant with John Bold's son.......  simply astounding!
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #69 on: October 10, 2017, 11:14:31 AM »
Yes Bellamarie and also that whole bit describing the baby and the child's relationship with its mother is a wonderful almost stand alone essay isn't it.

Interesting how Trollop introduces each character as if almost a vignette and spent so much time and attention describing a baby with the attention as if a main character - need to look at that again - I wonder if there is a message overlooked - because I cannot see how the child will have a future part in the story - maybe there is some symbolism going on - at most the child can affect how Eleonore sees her role although, I get the impression being left a financially comfortable widow has a greater impact in the story.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Jonathan

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #70 on: October 10, 2017, 06:22:21 PM »
'I get the impression being left a financially comfortable widow has a greater impact in the story.'

You are so right, Barb. John Bold the Younger has played his role when he assuages the sorrow of his mother. In the author's own words: 'The baby, as a baby, was all that was delightful, and I cannot forsee that it will be necessary for us to inquire into the facts of his after life.'

What an author! Make a note of the 'us'. The reader is asked to get involved. Thanks, Bellamarie, for the information about Trollope's unusual narrative style. But how can you jest at a time like this? The Archdeacon felt so sinful he threw himself down on his knees at the bedside of his dying father. And then there was the guilt trip put on Mr Harding by John Bold Senior. But that's a different story. How could Eleanor love him?

These cathedral closes seem like such calm, sanctimonious places, and here  we find a lot of disquiet. In fact Chapter 4 is titled 'War'. I hope it's not a spoiler, but I get the sense that it's all about power: The story is a cautionary tale for men, and a manual for women. Mark my words.

Jonathan

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #71 on: October 10, 2017, 06:29:37 PM »
Anyone here able to tell us what this means: 'nolo episcopari'? Is it a part of the archdeacon's spiritual turmoil?  Page 8

JoanK

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #72 on: October 10, 2017, 08:27:57 PM »
Hope tto be able to joina. Am struggling with a new device. Sometimes it. let's  e post, sometimes not.

Mkaren557

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #73 on: October 10, 2017, 10:07:50 PM »
Wikipedia says:

The Latin expression nolo episcoparii is the traditional formal refusal made by a cleric in the Roman Catholic and Anglican churches of an offer as appointment as a bishop.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #74 on: October 10, 2017, 11:18:28 PM »
HURRAY Joan - wonderful - looking forward to your addition - so glad to see you - Understand you moved - hope you new home is coming together - but please, kick up your heels because here you are back home among us... tra la... a toast of Welcome Home Joan...

Jonathan your comment about imagining a 'calm, sanctimonious' atmosphere of the close quickly reminded me of my childhood so I had to laugh out loud - there was a radio program that used to scare us - it was a take off from a comic book figure - dadada dah and with a flutter in our tummies followed by a tingly sensation, sitting on the edge of the sofa with an eye for our safety net, parents in the kitchen, the opening music announced, "The Shadow" - the intro voice always included - "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men..." ta ta ta dumm --- hehehaha delicious...

The wonder is, there is hardly any action - the only things that happen, in 9 chapters, other than an in-depth description using vignettes of behavior to introduce each character is, Old Dr Grantly dies - a baby wiggles its toes - the new Bishop and his wife and Reverend Slope arrive - Slope offends the parishioners with his severity - Grantly takes action against Slope enlisting the help of the town's clergy - Mary, sister-in-law to Eleanore and Eleanore visit Slope - an absentee clergymen, Stanhope arrives in Barchester after a 12 year absence bringing with him his family, including his younger married daughter, La Signora Neroni. 

Not exactly the stuff of great conquest or grand adventure like, The Tigers of Mompracem, nor is Barchester a place filled with Dickinsonian petty thieves and criminals, no one comes throbbing off the page. In Barchester only gentle poverty contrasting layered Victorian swish pulls us into a world where a coup is the nuance description of who gets what and the height of daring is a glib thought satirizing the sentiments of another character.

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #75 on: October 10, 2017, 11:31:28 PM »
Great Karen for finding the meaning for nolo episcopari - just to add a bit - as I understand from Sister Rose Imelda in 8th grade... its meaning is more nuanced - like Trollop  ;) - it is a polite refusal like refusing the offer of a piece of cake or a cookie till you are urged more than once - we no longer practice those manners that were all built around subterfuge - no wonder folks cannot figure out politics any longer they lost track of the manners of their grandparents and think the world should be about truth - but then whose truth -  Oh dear another can of worms - 8) I'll take the manners of subterfuge - at least I understood the rules  ;D
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #76 on: October 11, 2017, 02:03:00 AM »
Barb, you mentioned what I myself was thinking in saying, “The wonder is there is hardly any action. 

It is a bit frustrating reading these chapters with little to no conversations taking place.  Our narrator does all the talking, in describing the characters by telling us The Who, what, where, when and why of each of them. I do hope we get to hear words spoken by the characters soon.  As I was reading these chapters, I couldn’t help but wonder, how did they manage to make a movie from non speaking characters.  Ho hum....
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #77 on: October 11, 2017, 12:45:48 PM »
Joan it is so good to see you pop in!!!  I do hope you figure out your new device so you are able to post.  Your insight always is so interesting.  I just hate it when I have to figure out new devices.  My hubby went from an old iphone to a Samsung phone and I can not figure out how to use it at all.  I will stay will my apple iphone til it no longer works.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Jonathan

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #78 on: October 11, 2017, 03:10:01 PM »
H0 hum.... No action. No talk. But who needs words, when you can say it all, and control all, with eyes like Madame Neroni's:

'Her eyes were long and large, (p67) and marvellously bright; might I venture to say, bright as Lucifer's, I should perhaps best express the depth of their brilliancy. They were dreadful eyes to look at, such as would absolutely deter any man of quiet mind and easy spirit from attempting a passage of arms with such foes. There was talent in them, and the fire of passion and the play of wit, but there was no love. Cruelty was there instead, and courage, a desire of masterhood, cunning, and a wish for mischief. And yet, as eyes, they were very beautiful. The eyelashes were long and perfect, and the long, steady, unabashed gaze, with which she would look into the face of her admirer, fascinated while it frightened him. She was a basilisk from whom an ardent lover of beauty could make no escape.'

Yes, I remember the thrill of hearing, 'What evil lurks in the hearts of men'. Or the eyes of women? Was it Madame Neroni's eyes which provoked the misfortune which crippled her? Are they going to get her into more trouble?

It's just wonderful to hear from you, Joan.

bellamarie

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Re: The Warden/Barchester Towers ~ Trollope ~ Fall Book Club Online
« Reply #79 on: October 12, 2017, 11:45:42 AM »
Jonathan, great find!  The eyes do indeed say it all.....

I was just talking with my hubby yesterday about how the children of today do not seem to respect their parents, teachers or persons of authority, and how when we were raising our children all I had to do is give them "the look" and they knew instantly, I meant business.  No words needed indeed.  In today's world, I think there are too many words, and not enough action.

I must say I finally found an actual dialogue among the characters in the book in chapter 5,  A Morning Visit.  Imagine as far back as the 18th Century, they are discussing the subject of whether they should shut down trains on the Sabbath, so the employees could have the Sunday off to go to church:

I fear there is a great deal of Sabbath traveling here," said he.  "On looking at the 'Bradshaw' I see that there are three trains in and three out every Sabbath.  Could nothing be done to induce the company to withdraw them?  Don' you think, Dr. Grantly, that a little energy might diminish the evil?"

"Not being a director, I really can't say.  But if you can withdraw the passengers, the company I dare say will withdraw the trains," said the doctor.  "It's merely a question of dividends."

"But surely, Dr. Grantly," said the lady; "surely we should look at it differently.  You and I, for instance, in our position: surely we should do all that we can to control so grievous a sin.  Don't you think so, Mr. Harding?"  and she turned to the precentor, who was sitting mute and unhappy.

Mr. Harding thought that all porters and stokers, guards, brakesmen, and pointsmen ought to have an opportunity of going to church, and he hoped that they all had.

"But surely, surely," continued Mrs. Proudie, "surely that is not enough.  Surely that will not secure such an observance of the Sabbath as we are taught to conceive is not only expedient but indispensable; surely--"


Today, there is a discussion of allowing employees off for holidays like Thanksgiving, to spend with their families.  Having Sundays off to go to church would be unthinkable, I mean let's face it, the church pews are less and less filled.  Just asking my CCD students how many attend church on Sunday, I am lucky to get one student raise their hand. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden