Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OCT. 14,2009-Feb.17,2020

[BarbStAubrey]

Join us as we Read of Strife, Struggle, the Underworld, Chivalry and the Heroic in: Chapter by Chapter Each Week Starting Monday, October 14 We eavesdrop on the innermost thoughts, the mental inheritance, of mankind. ~ Translation by Lady Charlotte Guest The Mabinogion

Schedule

October 14.......The Lady of the Fountain October 28.......Peredur the Son of Evrawc November 11....Geraint the Son of Erbin November 18....Kilhwch and Olwen November 25....The Dream of Rhonabwy December 02....Pwyll Prince of Dyved

January 06.......Branwen the Daughter of Llyr January 13.......Manawyddan the Son of Llyr January 20.......Math the Son of Mathonwy January 27.......The Dream of Maxen Wledig February 03.....The Story of Lludd and Llevelys February 10.....Taliesin

Discussion Leader: Barbara

[BarbStAubrey]

Wow lots and lots of poetry...

My favorite is:

"I adore the Supreme, Lord of all animation,-- Him that supports the heavens, Ruler of every extreme, Him that made the water good for all, Him who has bestowed each gift, and blesses it;-- May abundance of mead be given Maelgwn of Anglesey, who supplies us, From his foaming meadhorns, with the choicest pure liquor. Since bees collect, and do not enjoy, We have sparkling distilled mead, which is universally praised. The multitude of creatures which the earth nourishes God made for man, with a view to enrich him;-- Some are violent, some are mute, he enjoys them, Some are wild, some are tame; the Lord makes them;-- Part of their produce becomes clothing; For food and beverage till doom will they continue. I entreat the Supreme, Sovereign of the region of peace, To liberate Elphin from banishment, The man who gave me wine, and ale, and mead, With large princely steeds, of beautiful appearance; May he yet give me; and at the end, May God of his good will grant me, in honour, A succession of numberless ages, in the retreat of tranquillity. Elphin, knight of mead, late be thy dissolution!"

[BarbStAubrey]

Found this ending to be anti-climactic but then maybe in its day reading poetry was a thrill that the writing of it was an elevated skill - since they were call Bards and their poems accompanied music I can see that probably was special among so many who could not read or write. I read some years ago many a king could not read or write and it was why they had assistant secretaries who also hired scribes.

Again, my big take away reading Mabinogion has been to bring awareness of the vast number of Arthur stories I knew nothing about and the larger than I realized number of authors who set down the Arthur stories before the years of the Renascence. I also have a new appreciation for the Romans and what they brought to these outpost locations and their continued influence on life. And last but not least to learn that the Druids were not only educators but were part of the Celtic lineage and culture - sure enough, looked it up and the Saxons had their own Gods that were similar to the Viking Gods.

We'll have Jane close us down and archive this discussion over the weekend...

[Frybabe]

My copy of the tale does not lay out the poems as poems but as ordinary prose. It is much easier to read as layed out in the online text. My favorite is the first as it speaks to those (including me at one time or another) of depression and sorrow over situations we find ourselves in that are not as we would like. Being depressed leaves you in a state in which it is difficult to pull yourself out of at times. I have a friend who is currently showing signs of looking backward and bemoaning what could have been or what happened beyond her control that set her back.

"Fair Elphin, cease to lament!
Let no one be dissatisfied with his own,
To despair will bring no advantage.
No man sees what supports him;
The prayer of Cynllo will not be in vain;
God will not violate his promise.
Never in Gwyddno's weir
Was there such good luck as this night.
Fair Elphin, dry thy cheeks!
Being too sad will not avail.
Although thou thinkest thou hast no gain,
Too much grief will bring thee no good;
Nor doubt the miracles of the Almighty:
Although I am but little, I am highly gifted.
From seas, and from mountains,
And from the depths of rivers,
God brings wealth to the fortunate man.
Elphin of lively qualities,
Thy resolution is unmanly;
Thou must not be over sorrowful:
Better to trust in God than to forbode ill.
Weak and small as I am,
On the foaming beach of the ocean,
In the day of trouble I shall be
Of more service to thee than three hundred salmon.
Elphin of notable qualities,
Be not displeased at thy misfortune;
Although reclined thus weak in my bag,
There lies a virtue in my tongue.
While I continue thy protector
Thou hast not much to fear;
Remembering the names of the Trinity,
None shall be able to harm thee."

I was quite interested in Taliesin's description of himself, the timelessness of it. Did he think he was an immortal, or was he speaking metaphorically (is that the right word?) as if through the poems and tales of those bards who came before they still live in him?  I found several editions of Taliesin's works in publication or online for viewing. Some are old manuscripts but others, like this one, are modern editions, like this one. https://www.amazon.com/Book-Taliesin-Heroism-Another-Britain/dp/0241381134

An interesting find - Frank Lloyd Wright named his estate in Wisconsin Taliesin.  His grandparents were Welsh. I didn't know that until today.

[BarbStAubrey]

Depression ah so... one thing I can attest to is, it seems to go hand and glove with aging as we loose our self-esteem mostly, I see because we do not know how to value ourselves when we experience so many losses of what gave us our identity and the many losses of friends and place - many cities are changing faster than we can adjust and now, change is faster than as recently as 30 years ago. Ah so we can go on and on with our opinion on depression but it for sure is not fun.

I've gone through several bad bouts over the years - the first it took me a long time to find a way out - only when I re-read a book I was captivated with while in High School could I make a shift in my thinking. Since, more quickly do I turn to and re-read if not the entire book, bits and pieces - My copy is an old falling apart, much underlined, paperback copy purchased in the early 1950s translated by Allison Peers, Dark Night of the Soul and Ascent on Mount Carmel - truly understanding hope - which is only hope if it is in the unknown. Most of what we think of as hope is only wanting a return of what we remember as pleasing or comfortable. I prefer Allison Peers translation which has a poetic lilt and she uses language that allows me to go inside where as other translators are harsh and direct with none of the magic which I need to search and touch my inner being.

Yes, I think part of the depression is to find yourself experiencing life on terms set by another that often that person's behavior is beyond your imagination - talk about being caught up in a vortex - if the behavior affects others they all have their reaction that is often adding more pain and more new behavior that requires an adjustment often to and from family members - isolation and depression follow.

I've never been able to take the meds they subscribe - they all have affected my lungs or so incapacitate me that I am in bed 24/7 - no way will I repeat that experience and so I slug through like walking in a swamp of oozing mud.

I must say the book I read last week put into words so many of the feelings that trap me but I never had words to describe - sure I cried and cried while reading but it was like a cry stuck in my gut and heart for 30 and 50 and even 80 years. I cannot recommend the book enough -  As Wide as the Sky by Jessica Pack.

The story is about how a mom handles and copes after her son is a mass murderer in a mall. Not only the confusion but how society reacts that affects her. There are a couple of chapters that show how those injured, or knew one of the dead, were handling the aftermath.

Dramatic and timely but easily translatable to any major loss in our lives - included is a sequence of events finding the owner of a ring she finds among her son's belongings as she is clearing his childhood things followed by tracking down the owner of the ring - after I read the book I realized the significance of a ring, almost like the Hobbit. Again, can't recommend it enough - I read it using Amazon since I have a kindle account - the description says it best that to me was typical of something out of the blue, that you can never imagine slamming into you like the planes hitting the NYC towers on 9/11

"Before the tragedy that unfolded in a South Dakota mall, Robbie was just like other people’s sons or daughters. Sometimes troubled, but sweet and full of goodness too." The book does not go into the actual tragedy at the mall but it centers on the mother, what she feels, how she copes, how she expresses her love. She has a daughter who early on moves out of state and the story goes into some of that relationship.

[BarbStAubrey]

Another thought I tore into - God brings wealth to the fortunate man. - so much today about investing with the concept that wealth and investing is about money - till I read how all money is, is a medium of exchange - For many of us we invested in a relationship or family or a community effort or in the arts or even in our job - that is when I also realized if we do not value our investment and acknowledge the wealth we received or gave, no one will do it for us. That to shame or scold for not having invested in financial instruments that would bring about financial wealth is short sighted - not worthy of those who are doing the shaming or scolding however, it allows them to be self-righteous.

Much of what we did invest our time, talent, knowledge, curiosity etc was in something that paid in the long term and the pay was in a contribution to an individual or society or the community - not the short term where we saw an annual increase or change in our financial well being. And so now I can give more value to my choices after understanding wealth is not just money and we invest ourselves in what we value that may not bring us more money and may not show a return on our investment for decades.

I also think that is the cause of depression for many when they expected a return that either did not come or the return was quickly replaced and they wonder, what was the value of their life's work.

[BarbStAubrey]

Tomorrow, Sunday the 16th, sometime later in the day, Jane will be closing down the discussion and archiving it... frybabe I was scrolling back because there are many links I never had a chance to get into... WELL... went to Gutenberg - hardly ever use their site that each year is a treasure trove - in the box on top had put in Arthurian - Do you know there are pages, at least 3 pages with 25 books to a page about Arthur!!!

Found this one, Stories from Le Morte D'Arthur and the Mabinogion and started to read a bit... still learning... this could become a permanent hobby just reading and researching all the information on Arthur.

"in the Franciscan Church of far-away Innsbrück, the finest of the ten statues of ancestors guarding the tomb of the Emperor Maximilian I. is that of King Arthur."

[BarbStAubrey]

Another tid bit explanation...

Now, from their conquerors, the Britons learnt many useful arts, to read and to write, to build houses and to make roads; but at the same time, they unlearnt some of their own virtues and, among others, how to think and act for themselves. For the Romans never allowed a Briton any real part in the government of his own country, and if he wished to become a soldier, he was sent away from Britain to serve with a legion stationed in some far-distant part of the empire.

Thus it came about that when, in the fifth century, the Romans withdrew from Britain to defend Rome itself from invading hordes of savages, the unhappy Britons had forgotten how to govern and how to defend themselves, and fell an easy prey to the many enemies waiting to pounce on their defenceless country.

Picts from Scotland invaded the north, and Scots from Ireland plundered the west; worst of all, the heathen Angles and Saxons, pouring across the seas from their homes in the Elbe country, wasted the land with fire and sword. Many of the Britons were slain; those who escaped sought refuge in the mountainous parts of the west from Cornwall to the Firth of Clyde. There, forgetting, to some extent, their quarrels, they took the name of the Cymry, which means the "Brethren," though the English, unable to understand their language, spoke of them contemptuously as the "Welsh," or the "Strangers."

[BarbStAubrey]

I just asked Jane to hold off closing the discussion till late Monday morning or any time on Monday - that way if there is any other tidbits to share we have the weekend.

[Frybabe]

I think of fortune in broader terms than solely financial. One can be fortunate in having good health, children surviving to adulthood, having a special talent, surviving a potentially dangerous situation, etc.

The many of the tribes were allowed to govern themselves, up to a point, at the lower levels of governance. They retained their tribal affiliations at first, for the most part very gradually assimilating Roman ideas and methods. That very few British natives reached higher levels of governance is likely due to a certain amount of distrust and prejudice on the part of the Roman authorities. There were those, too, to that rejected the Roman way of life preferring to keep to the old ways, especially those that the Romans were determined to stamp out (the influence of the Druids being one of them). Maybe we could call them the Luddites of the new world order. While watching the Time Team episodes, it is clear that there were plenty of Iron Age type communities (especially more isolated areas) that co-inhabited with the Roman style communities for quite some time. The changeover being more gradual in some areas than others. 

[PatH]

What an amazing discussion.  Barb, I'm so glad you had the courage to tackle the Mabinogion.  It was a lot of work, especially finding all the background material, the Welsh history and traditions, the landscape, and remaining buildings and artifacts.   I read all the stories, and thoroughly enjoyed them, and the posts.  Unfortunately, this was a rather complicated time in my personal life, and I couldn't invest as much time and attention in learning the background and writing posts as they deserved.

Frybabe, you are the queen of unearthing material on the internet--such a wealth.

Thanks to both of you for letting me watch your conversation, and contribute a tiny bit when I could manage it.

[Frybabe]

Thank you for your kind words, PatH. Barb and I might have felt a little lonely being mostly by ourselves, but oh the stuff we got into: the Celts and the Druids, late Iron Age living to post Roman upheaval, warlords and knights vying for for status, wealth and power, the importance of the number three and cauldrons, pigs and horses, the origin of the Welsh Flag which took us as far as Eastern Europe/Near and the Near East, early Christianity, Irish, Welsh, and Anglo-Saxon raids, and of course, King Arthur.

[PatH]

It certainly was a rich and varied picture you made.

Next I want to have a look at two books I read half a lifetime ago, and see what I think of them now I've read the Mabinogion.  The first is T.H. White's The Once and Future King, an imaginative, whimsical retelling of the King Arthur story.  The first of the four books, The Sword in the Stone, is the best, describing Arthur's childhood. He is fostered by Sir Hector, with the future seneschal Sir Kay for a brother, his identity unknown to keep him safe.  His education by Merlin includes being turned into a variety of animals, learning a different life lesson from each species.  The books get progressively darker and gloomier, hard to take by the end.  A Disney movie was made from the first book, totally failing to capture its spirit.

The more relevant book is a series of five children's books by Lloyd Alexander, The Chronicles of Prydain.  Alexander says he lifted all the parts of it from the Mabinogion, and now I can check that.  Certainly many of the characters were.  The hero is Taran, only mentioned twice in the M., just his name and that of his son.  Here he starts life as an assistant pig keeper, having many adventures as he finds himself, fights battles to save the country, falls in love with a Daughter of Llyr, and ends up as a king.  Gwydion is there, and Gwrgi, and Arawn, and the magic cauldron that revives the dead, and others, but I don't remember the book well enough to see how close they are to their originals.

[BarbStAubrey]

Yep, have to agree Pat - if it is there frybabe finds it - this was a great discussion - but then I figured it would be good since we had a great time talking about the Silk Road in an earlier discussion - Amazing how some of that spilled over in all places but here in Mobinogion - do not remember if the Roman horsemen were mentioned in the Mobinogion or during research we found it - but wow that was a shocker...

Now I must find a copy of The Chronicles of Prydain sounds like more about the various Arthur characters we seldom hear about. Pat thanks, you always nail the most important aspects of anything we read - and now you even have me curious about White's The Once and Future King - never did read it although over the years there have been so many references it felt like I read it.

Thanks frybabe for making yet another discussion exciting with so many great finds -

Tra la - found a couple of sites where we can download The Chronicles of Prydain

 https://epdf.pub/the-book-of-three-the-chronicles-of-prydain-book-1.html

https://raunabray.firebaseapp.com/The-Book-of-Three-(The-Chronicles-of-Prydain-Book-1)-26729989.html

even an audio version

https://ezaudiobookforsoul.com/audiobook-series/the-chronicles-of-prydain/the-book-of-three-audiobook/#Download_and_listen_free