Author Topic: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online  (Read 106445 times)

PatH

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #80 on: July 19, 2009, 10:06:28 PM »

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

People of the Book - by Geraldine Brooks

      You'll fall in love with Hanna Heath,  Geraldine Brooks'  edgy  Aussie rare book expert with an attitude, a loner with a real passion for her work.  How could she refuse this opportunity of a lifetime, the conservation of the beautifully illustrated Sarajevo  Haggadah, the mysterious Hebrew manuscript, created in Spain in the 14th century?

The invitation will bring Hanna into war-torn Bosnia in the spring of 1996 and then,  into the world of fine art forgers and international fanatics. Her intuitive investigation  of the manuscript will put her in a time capsule to medieval Spain and  then back to Northern Australia again with a number of stops along the way.  This is based on the travels of an actual manuscript, which has surfaced over the centuries since its creation in Spain.
Discussion Schedule:

July 15-19  ~ Hanna, 1996; Insect's Wing;
    Sarajevo, 1940
 
July 20-24 ~ #2   Hanna, Vienna, 1996; Feathers and a Rose;
 Hanna, Vienna, Spring '96
July 25-August 3 Wine Stains, Venice 1609;
   Hanna, Boston, 1996
August 4-August 8  Saltwater, Tarragona, 1492;
   Hanna, London, Spring, 1996  
August 9-August 13 White Hair, Seville, 1480;
   Hanna, Sarajevo, Spring, 1996  
August 14-18 Lola, Jerusalem, 2002;
   Hanna,  Gunumeleng, 2002  
August 19-August 23  Afterword

(click twice to really enlarge)


Topics for Discussion
July 20-24 ~ Hanna, Vienna, 1996; Feathers and a Rose; Hanna, Vienna, Spring '96


1 . Has the big question ever been answered as to the whereabouts of the Haggadah during World War II?   Why was it said that the person who hid the book was a  Nazi conspirator?

2.  Do you know if there  are  actually archived records of  conservation  work done on the Haggadah  in Vienna at the end of the 19th century?  Has anyone examined  archived records of the conservation or is this all fiction?
  
3.  How does Hanna's mentor, Werner Heinrich,  explain the clumsy binding that was put on the  Haggadah in Vienna?  Why does he suspect  a "sinisnter"  reason?

4. What do we learn of the Kohen family who brought out the manuscript to sell it in 1894?  Where might the manuscript have come from before the family owned it?

5.  Is there a reason the chief archivist in the Vienna Archives is portrayed as a hip, very young woman? What is her silver-studded nez retroussée?  

6. . What bit of informatilon does Hanna learn from the description of the clasps that were on the Haggadah when it arrived in Vienna?  Did the conservators intend to replace the old clasps as they did the binding?

7. What did you think of the portrayal of Florien Mittl, the bookbinder and his doctor, Franz Hirschfeldt?   Did they convey a feel for the atmosphere in Vienna in 1894 - the artistic, the social scene?  

8. What do you understand by the term, Judenfresser?    Why does the doctor, Franz Hirschfeldt believe the German Nationalists   will want to remove  Jews  before the Muslims and other exotics who have been flooding the city  in their effort to reduce foreign influence?

9.  Did you cringe at the idea of the priceless old book in the hands of this man with failing skills in his grimy apartment?
"Judging from the clasps, the book must have had a remarkable binding once."  What do you think was the  inspiration for he description of the silver clasps  Florien Mittl removes from the book?  

10. What does Hanna find in the third file containing the the Frenchman, Martell's report on the matter of the clasps? What did he do with them? Was there evidence on the actual haggadah that clasps were missing?  Were there actually notes in Vienna dating back to the restoration in 1894?

11.  Do you think Hanna's  mother  would rather not see her daughter  at all, or is she simply that absorbed in this conference?  Were you prepared for her quick prognosis regarding the condition of Alia's brain?

12.  Hanna hopes that we are all destined to look like Razmus Kanaha after a millenium of intermixing?  What is she really saying here?  What does he find intermixed  in the wine sample that Hanna has brought to him?
 


Relevant Links:
Geraldine Brooks - Background information; Sarajevo Haggadah; Early Haggadah Manuscripts; Illuminated Manuscripts; Brief History of Illuminating Manuscripts;

Discussion Leaders: JoanP, Ann , JoanK,  & Traudee


mrssherlock

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #81 on: July 19, 2009, 10:16:56 PM »
Not my idea of a Hanna.
Jackie
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke

PatH

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #82 on: July 19, 2009, 10:17:56 PM »
Welcome, besprechen, fellow discusser!  I hope you will come in with any comments you choose, big or little, but if you look and don't say anything that's good, too.  I'm glad you said hi, though.  I think we are all learning a lot of different things from this discussion.

JoanP

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #83 on: July 19, 2009, 11:28:36 PM »
Willkommen, Besperchen!  I'd like to echo Pat's greeting -( her German is more extensive than mine.)

Jackie, I thought the actress a perfect Hanna!  Perhaps because I knew her name, her face, before I'd formed my own mental picture.  I had been waiting to hear that  Sheila  had caught up before mentioning her name.
Do you assume that having film rights means that she will play the part?
I thought that was a very helpful and interesting observation - yes, Hanna's first person narratives are more accessible, more "intimate" as Claire put it,  than the third person description of Lola's experience. BUT, by keeping us at the third person distance, her story does take on a mythical quality.  

 I agree with you, Zany, I thought Lola's pages were a bit long - a good editor ought to have seen that, I felt.  I thought the episode was important because it showed that the traditional friendly relations among the races had endured in spite of the occupation, even when threatened with death.  The Muslim family could have lost everything keeping Lola in their home.

Babi, I'll wager that we won't be hearing anything more from or about Lola as we move back in time - to Vienna.  I Perhaps Lola was "central"  only in relation to the Kamal family and the hiding of the Haggadah.  Can you explain "a Sephardic language"  for us?
Claire - your email address can be found by clicking your name on one of your posts - and then scroll down under your name in the Profile and your address appears there.  It's been there all along... Well, does your daughter look like the actress, Claire?

winsummm

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #84 on: July 20, 2009, 01:01:22 AM »
I don't know who the actress is but my daughter has long dark straight hair and a sensative face. i.e. Oz idea of a madonna.
thimk

Frybabe

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #85 on: July 20, 2009, 01:04:53 AM »
Ok, it's officially the 20th here. Waves of the Danube cake: http://germanfood.about.com/od/baking/r/donauwellen.htm

I really needed to share that. Looks yummy!

winsummm

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #86 on: July 20, 2009, 01:29:29 AM »
lets see if this works. . . .



not an actress person. . . . a real person . . . . laura
thimk

JoanP

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #87 on: July 20, 2009, 07:35:59 AM »
A wonderful way to begin the week and the period in the history of the book - what a lovely Hanna, Claire! I  dunno, what do the rest of you think?  Is she a bit too "sweet"?  The expression in her eyes a bit soft and vulnerable to play Hanna, perhaps.  Can makeup overcome that sweet expression?  

Here's a favorite quote from the actress who has the film rights to Hanna -
Quote
"I'm more insecure than I ever let anyone know, sometimes you protect yourself with this kind of armor that people see more than they see you."
By the way, this same actress has acquired film rights to play Susan Boyle in an upcoming movie...

In this next section we get to know Hanna's mama a bit more - no wonder H. feels the need for armor when the two meet.  I'm not sure there are mothers like this one.

A "sweet"  way to usher us  into Vienna, Frybabe.   Have you tried it?  If I had an hour and a half, I'd attempt the
Danube cake myself.  Will file the recipe, though.  In September we will travel in Munich, Prague - and just maybe Vienna.  Already I dream of cake like this - and the bier..

Before we begin, I'd like to ask you all a question?  Have you read the "Afterword"  located in the back of the book?  We've had it scheduled for discussion at the end - after we've discussed the rest of the book.  Those of you who have finished  reading  the book - will you look it over, please, to see if there are "spoilers"  for those of us who have not yet finished?  Do you recommend that we take a look at it now - before we have finished G. Brooks'  story?  Why is it an "afterword"  do you think? Won't go there unless you reassure that it won't give away too much.  

Today - we catch the train for Vienna - 1996...

Frybabe

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #88 on: July 20, 2009, 09:13:20 AM »
JoanP, I just can't see our mystery actress as Susan Boyle. I know she has bought film rights to our book, but will she be playing Hanna?

Sadly, I rarely do any baking anymore. I used to reserve Wednesdays, when I was an at home housewife, for baking bread. I loved decorating cakes, but didn't like eating all that sugar in the icing. Once upon a time I had the time. Well, I could have some time now if I weren't addicted to this computer  ;D

I haven't finished reading this section yet so I better get cracking. BTW, I looked up Arthur Schnitzler - not at all something I'd want to read.

Babi

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #89 on: July 20, 2009, 09:13:43 AM »
 JOANP, the term "Sephardic language" came up when I looked for a definition
of 'Ladino'.  It was a Jewish/Spanish dialect.  Sephardic Jews are the Jews of Spain, Portugal, North Africa and the Middle East and their descendants.  They
were orthodox in their beliefs.
  The silver clasps must have been very beautiful. The chapter title, "Feathers and a Rose", is obviously a reference to the clasps,  the “flower enfolded by  wing” motif on the clasps.  And yes, I was alarmed at the idea of this book
being in the hands of this desperate man.  The description of society in Vienna at the time is decidedly decadent.   Apparently  mistresses were the custom of the day, and I would guess that VD was rampant.
   The silver clasps  were sold by the books binder, to pay for an expensive and dangerous treatment for his advanced  social disease.  They were to be made into jewelry for a man’s wife and mistress. How will Hanna ever find  that out?
What are the chances of finding any one of those pieces of jewelry?

 I am enjoying Brooks insertion of quaint vignettes into the stories.
Note the lengthy, scrupulously polite interchange between the early German telephone operators.  They seem to be taking up most of the allotted  time for a call for their own courtesies. (Surely people must have complained.)

 

 
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

ANNIE

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #90 on: July 20, 2009, 09:29:06 AM »
Well, the book and GB are now directing us back to Hanna and her visit to Vienna, a stopover for her, as she revisits her old professor, Werner Maria Heinrich,or as she was directed to call him, Herr Doktor Doktor Heinrich.
 
She fills us in on how she became his apprentice after her undergraduate degree was finished.  Seems like she was just one determined young lady.  Freezing in the cold weather she had not dressed for, she is taken in by Doktor Heinrich.  He couldn't turn her down, as she was a pitiful sight.  At first, he treated her with cool indifference, calling her Miss Heath.   But as they become better acquainted, he refers to her as his, "Hanna, Liebchen".

On this visit, she is surprised to find him in such frail condition but he welcomes her with much happiness and they talk about why she is in Vienna.  Seems she has come to visit him and to tell him of the many things that she has found.  Also to ask about the book's missing clasps.

Hanna wants Professor Heinrich to help her get into the National Museum's old files where she hopes to find clues about the Haggadah.   The doktor suspects that the pathetic binding placed on the book was Vienna's revenge for having to turn it over to the Bosnian Landesmuseum.   
  
So much mystery to deal with today!
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

ANNIE

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #91 on: July 20, 2009, 11:01:45 AM »
What did you find about Schnitzler, Frybabe???  His awful story of how a Jew felt in Austria during the early 1900's was chilling.   Here is his bio: http://www.litencyc.com/php/speople.php?rec=true&UID=5412
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

ANNIE

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #92 on: July 20, 2009, 11:10:05 AM »
On reading the bio of Schnitzler, I found this.  Where have we heard this before?  Its in our story as it progresses.
Arthur Schnitzler studied medicine at the University of Vienna from 1879-1884, spending 1882-3 as a volunteer at the military hospital. (He was later demoted from reservist officer to reservist private after the scandal of Leutnant Gustl in 1900, when he was accused of bringing shame to the Hapsburg army by ridiculing ritual duelling.)
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

straudetwo

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #93 on: July 20, 2009, 11:24:37 AM »
JoanP
re the Afterword.

I had  (past tense) a library book and kept to the schedule --- except for reading ahead to the third segment about Venice 1609, because I volunteered to lead it,  and wanted to be prepared.  
But I went no farther, have no idea what the Afterward said.

But the library copy was unwieldy for me.  Last week I took it back and bought a paperback instead.  It's feather-light by comparison,
bendable, and it's mine!  I can make marginal notes to my heart's content!  

The paperback does NOT have an Afterword.
Instead there are:

1. An Introduction to People of the Book  (It's a bit illogical, isn't it,  to place  an "introduction" at the end ? )
2. About Geraldine Brooks[/b]
3. Conversation with Geraldine Brooks with Q&A
4. Questions for Discussion.

Under (3), one of the questions the interviewer asked GB is "Who is your favorite character and why?"  GB.'s short answer is that "Hanna was a good mate" and GB "misses hanging around with her".

Could  that  be considered a give-away that Hanna is fictional - and that, ipso facto, the characters in the separate stories are fictional too? But why does that cause such distress? 







winsummm

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #94 on: July 20, 2009, 12:03:10 PM »
I read the afterward and will try not to confuse it with the assigned section.
m daughter is a psycologist, not exactly sweet but empathetic which I think is Hannas main attribute in being able to identify with the people of the book.  She does a good job on character in all the little stories as well. so the vulverability is what makes her likeable.  I see that in my daughter and of course I think she is very sweet.    ;)
thimk

Frybabe

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #95 on: July 20, 2009, 01:05:06 PM »
Adoannie, while I looked at several sites, I relied mostly on the Wikipedia article which listed his works and gave a description of some of them. Several have been adapted to film or play by other names. Eyes Wide Shut is adapted from Dream Story. Click on the book title for a synopsis of the book. I never saw the movie and definitely don't want to read the book.

Mippy

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #96 on: July 20, 2009, 01:43:49 PM »
Jumping down to the last of your questions: What does he find intermixed  in the wine sample that Hanna has brought to him?

This is right out of a CSI episode, isn't it?   There is animal protein in the wine (amazing to find with such a small sample)  which would not be in Kosher wine, which must not contain any animal products at all.  Moreover, it's not just any protein, it's blood.  

This mystery sets the stage for the next section.

Regarding Afterword:  my Penquin edition is paperback and has the afterword on
pages 369-72, and includes several paragraphs of acknowlegements, as well an explanation
of where the real Haggadah was during the Nazi occupation of Sarajevo.    
quot libros, quam breve tempus

JoanK

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #97 on: July 20, 2009, 02:03:09 PM »
BESPRECHEN: WELCOME WELCOME! We are glad to have you in our discussion. Do check out our other discussions, also.

Do let us know what else you found in your research. One of the joys of these discussions is that we all learn so much from each other.

straudetwo

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #98 on: July 20, 2009, 04:13:16 PM »
Mippy.

Thank you, thank you.  The Afterword IS there in my paperback on pp. 369-72.  I began looking for it from the wrong end, backwards !!
Apologies.

BYW,  both TIME magazine and the Sunday NYT magazine are thinner now; both printed in a much smaller font.  Grrrrrr

[b[Frybabe[/b],  Viennese pastries and tortes are to die for.  Coffee is traditionally served with "Schlag" = a huge dollop of whipped cream (and not from the can).   Waiters are hailed by calling  for  "Herr Ober". Waitresses are still called "Fraeulein" (Miss) ...  :)

JoanP

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #99 on: July 20, 2009, 04:45:33 PM »
Mippy, the two mysteries that have my attention- regarding the real book, not the fictional now -

a.  The fact that the Haggadah is illustrated - this is contrary to some sort of law concerning "graven images" -isn't it?"
b. The wine stain really does exist in the Haggadah, this is not GB's fiction.  If the actual wine stain contains the protein - the blood - then this wine is not Kosher either.  

Traudee, I'm glad you found the Afterword at the end of the book - the paperback. Have you read the Afterword?  What do you all think - should we read it now - or is the mystery more fun?

Annie, I think the whole story of the way the Jew was regarded in Vienna in the 1900's is fascinating and an important part of the whole  story.   Back in a bit - am trying to research a new computer...

PatH

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #100 on: July 20, 2009, 05:33:58 PM »
The term "Judenfresser" is interesting.  As Dr. Heinrich says, it means "Jew eaters", but fressen is the verb you use for animals eating, and when applied to humans, crudity or vulgarity is implied.  (You would use "essen" for people.)  So to me, "Judenfresser" would be an even more savage term than the translation implies, suggesting an animal ferocity.

JoanK

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #101 on: July 20, 2009, 07:59:32 PM »
As we go on to a new section, a friend who had read the book warned me to keep track of the characters in each section. Mention of many of the characters shows up later, and we find out more about their lives, but it's sometimes hard to emember who they were.

JoanK

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #102 on: July 20, 2009, 08:37:04 PM »
I've found reading the afterward and knowing which things are real and which literary inventions helpful. I've reread it, and there are no spoilers in it, from the point we are now.

I also find following the history backwards very confusing. So I've turned it arould, as far as weve gotten, sorting out what is real and what fictional. If you don't want to know, skip this post.

As far as we've read: (from Geraldine Brooks: afterword)

FACT:In 1894, the Haggadah "came to the attention of scholars in Sarajevo, when an indigent Jewish family offered it for sale...it was one of the earliest illuminated Hebrew books to come to light". It was sent to Vienna for study and restoration. The rebinding of the Haggadah was mishandled in Vienna. It was then sent back to Sarajevo.

Fiction: the clasps are fiction, as are all the characters in the section on Vienna.

Fact: 1941: a renown Islamic scholar, Dervis Korkut smuggled the book out of the museum under the nose of a German general, and hid it in a mosque in the mountains, where it only reappeared after WWII. He and his wife Servet performed many heroic acts against the Nazis

Fiction: the idea of the Muslim family in the book, the Kamals, is based on this family (but not the specific characters). Lola and the other characters in the Butterfly chapter are fictional.

FACT: During the Bosnian war, a Muslem Librarian, Enver Imamivic, rescued the book, and hid it in a bank vault. Many librarians in Sarajevo commited similiar acts of heroism: one of them lost her life doing so.

FICTION: while the idea for Ozren,the librarian in the book, was inspired by this story, the character and his life are completely ficticious.

FACT:2001 GB was a witness while a conservator, Andrea Pataki worked on the bookin a crowded room under heavy guard.

FICTION: GB emphasizes that the cvharacter, Hannah, is not at all similiar to the real conservator.

ANNIE

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #103 on: July 20, 2009, 08:41:20 PM »
JoanK,
That's a good idea or one could use the small post-its to mark the pages with names written on each.  

I have not been able to quite understand the Judenfressen meaning.  Judenfressen is translated how???Mea culpa!  I am having a headache night tonight.  Back later!

If you remember that the Dr that treats Mittl also has to help his brother who has a dueling wound.  The Dr disapproves of dueling quite vehemently.  The brother, who's mother is caucasian, thinks he will lose his status in the army due to his Jewish father.   
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

fairanna

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #104 on: July 20, 2009, 09:26:16 PM »
I read the afterword after the first chapter and have found it extremely helpful As I have said I believe the author has done a wonderful job but at heart I am a real histroy buff....Sometimes when I read a "TRUE HISTORY"  I find it can be a bit dry. GB has taken some TRUE HISTORY and made it into a mystery .. a supposition about what could happen with hints of what really happened...Knowing the TRUE FACTS does not diminish the story to me but just makes it more interesting ...this mean it is not a true story but has taken a true story and made in enjoyable..  how can anyone who was not there during all of the places and people who handled the REAL BOOK tell a true story ., TO me GB has used what I sometimes do when I read a REAL HISTORY book.... imagination.. I try to imagine what really happens, how the people were affected and often I am brought to tears because of what I think really happened...It saddens me to know how cruel many so called leaders were and how cruel people in power treated the those whom they had captured or taken the country they now rule...I  thank everyone for their insight and thoughts   ....it makes reading a book truly enjoyable .

straudetwo

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #105 on: July 20, 2009, 10:24:31 PM »
PatH.
I've' never heard the term "Judenfresser".  It appalls me.  There's a similar composite noun known from geography and anthropology :  "Menschenfresser", literally 'people eaters'. The proper word in German is cannibals.  I can't think of another combination with
... fresser.  The term is crude and denotes an insult.

Hanna was surprised that  Frau Zweig, the chief archivist of the museum, would be so young and hip; she even had a stud in her upturned nose (retrousse is upturned).

Interesting how adroitly GB weaved in cultural differences,   for instance the caution with which a person's first name is used in Europe. It indicates a certain unexpected, sometimes unwanted familiarity.   When German Chancellor Helmut Schmidt was invited to the White House, President Jimmy Carter met him in the Oval Office, extending his hand and called him "Helmut".  The Kanzler, a  brilliant and rather formal man looked surprised.

Anti-semitism was rampant in Austria long before Hitler (who was born there) came to power in Germany.
Hanna mentions two possible reasons for the clumsy binding done in Vienna (page 97) :  it may have been a petty natch because the manuscript had to be returned to Sarajevo, or the binder was an anti-semite.

It was clever of GB to refer to Arthur Schnitzler, who embodies the atmosphere of that era perfectly, the decadence and  the waning power of the Habsburgs.
Son of a prominent Jewish family, Schnitzler was a playwright, novelist, short-storywriter and physician, trained in psychiatry. He was a contemporary of Freud, the two men knew of each other and would write favorably of the other's work.  They lived only a short distance from each other, but they never met.  Talk about formality!  Like Freud, Schnitzler was interested in the hypnotic treatment of neurosis, especially hysteria. His drama Anatole deals with that theme.

BTW the proper spelling is Habsburg, with a 'b'.  I can't imagine why a 'p' wold be there instead.  It recurs,  too,  but no editor took notice.

Let me take this opportunity to repeat that a person who facilitates the conversation (the SPOKEN  word) between parties who do not speak the same language is  identified as an interpreter --- NOT a 'translator'.
  
A translator is a person who handles books, letters, documents of any kind  and translates them word for word from one language into another (the WRITTEN word).

According to this distinction,   the Irakis who ride in army jeeps and trucks and facilitate the ORAL communication between our troops and the native population are interpreters.

Just saw Fairanna's post regarding the Afterword. I agree with Anna.





JoanP

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #106 on: July 20, 2009, 11:43:52 PM »
This is fascinating information - helping us to understand the climate in Vienna when this little book makes its appearance.  The idea of this priceless book in the hands of the bookbinder, Mittl was shocking to me.  Resentful as he is of the prominence of Jews in Vienna, it is a wonder that he took much care of the book at all while he worked on it.  Perhaps even this man was awed by the illuminated pages.

PatH - you make an important difference between "fresser"  and "esser" - which sent me scurrying to find what I could about  the origin of the term.  Didn't find much, but enough to suspect that GB was aware of this -

Quote
There is a considerable number of other Purim plays, including comedies and tragedies composed in Judæo-German and other languages (among them Hebrew and Arabic) and written during the last two centuries, of which a list is given by Steinschneider. Of special interest is "Haman, der Grosse Judenfresser," by Jacob Koref (Breslau, 1862), to which Lagarde ("Purim," pp. 56-57, Göttingen, 1887)
Haman, der Grosse Judenfresser (a Purim Play)

 It is the date of this purim play that I find interesting.  Can anyone comment on "Purim Plays"?  What were they?

JoanK - did your friend intimate that we should take note of the fictional characters - that they will reappear later in the book?  If so, Babi was prescient - is it possible that we will meet Lola again?  I felt we were leaving her behind, once she and the book were hidden away in the mountains until the end of WWII.   I see from your notes on the Afterword that the book was actually hidden in the mountains during the war.  So that's where the fictional Parnassius butterfly wing comes in - very rare, except in the mountains...

Anna - I'm going to take a cue from you - and surrender to GB's imagination.  I'm working too hard to find the  history.

Babi

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #107 on: July 21, 2009, 08:55:08 AM »
(sigh) I shall never understand the German desire for titles that include
everything one ever did!  To address someone as "Herr Doktor Doktor ___" is
so awkward!

 I think 'empathetic' is a very good choice of descriptive for Hanna, CLAIRE.
I think that is the key to her talent for digging out the history of the
artifacts she worked with.

 ANNA, I think most persons who rise to positions of power must be tough
and what they would call 'realistic'. They 'cut their losses', with often
cruel results. The only thing I can think to say in their defense, is that
at least they reach the top equipped to deal with their counterparts in
the world.

 Was anyone else as bemused as I was by Fraulein Zweig?  I guess I have a
mental picture of the typical German institution as stolid and very
conventional. I could not imagine a young woman like Fraulein Zweig being
a department head in a German museum, mini skirts, hair, tattoos and all!
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

ANNIE

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #108 on: July 21, 2009, 09:50:25 AM »
Fraulein Zweig does make one wonder until she explains that she took her schooling in the United States.  Probably she wanted to be like those young students of the late '80's and early '90's in NYC.  Her choice of colors and styles speak of that time.  I was not aware of the how formal the European people are until I read this book.
 

About "Feathers and a Rose" chapter:

Was anyone as surprised as I when telephoning was brought into the story for 1894?  Long distance calling?? With a ten minute rule??  And all of the Dr's time limit being taken up by the operators fawning over each other and their bosses?

Another surprising item brought into this chapter was the dr's concern with cleanliness and maybe sterilization? He changes the sheets on the examining table after each patient.  I must look up this procedure and see when it came into being.

Anna,
Your understanding and your process of reading historical fiction is in agreement with mine.  I do enjoy it so but want to know what is true and what is not.

Traude,
So when we say "judenfresser" we are speaking Austrian?? And the German word for "people eaters" is "menshenfressers"?  Horrible words!  Just chilling!

Frybabe,
After reading about Schnitzler  and knowing that "Eyes Wide Shut" was his writing also,  I understand what Doktor Heinlich is speaking of when he says that Schnitzler's writing was erotic.  Haven't seen the movie but have heard about it.  Tom Cruise and his wife of that time were in it.

Mippy,
I have read the Afterword twice now and had found it very helpful.  Its the last section of the HB edition.  

JoanP,
How did you find that awful play??  Ugly stuff in "Haman, de Grosse"
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

Mippy

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #109 on: July 21, 2009, 10:31:22 AM »
Purim is a holiday when Jewish kids dress up and may re-inact the story of the Book of Ester,
or perhaps just wear other costumes.  In Israel this holiday seems to function as a replacement of Halloween, but perhaps others have better information.   There are many parties, but I saw no trick-or-treat activities when we were in Israel in the 1960s and 1970s.   Despite the link calling Purim an important holiday, none of our friends at the university thought it was. 
                                         
Here's a link on Purim spiel, Purim play in English:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purim_spiel

quot libros, quam breve tempus

Gumtree

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #110 on: July 21, 2009, 10:55:22 AM »
I think perhaps Brooks got it wrong about the phone calls - the Frauleins could exchange pleasantries for as long as they wished without using up the caller's time. The  calls would be timed from the moment the two parties were actually connected and speaking to one another. They were not timed   during the time it took the operators (Frauleins) to make the connection. Maybe Brooks was trying to add a little realistic colour to the period she was dealing with  (1894?)

Brooks also had Hanna's old teacher, the Herr Doktor Doktor still dressed in a manner more in keeping with the fin de siecle with his loosely tied silk necktie, than as a man who was 76 in the 1990s. I felt she didn't get that quite right either.

Frybabe & Traude : Would you believe that in about 1952 I had my first taste of  Viennese cakes - not in Vienna - but  in a town called Wagga Wagga on the  Murrumbidgee River in the rich Riverina district of New South Wales, Australia. I happened to be there and we took afternoon tea in the local tea shop (cafe) which was run by two sisters who had emigrated from Austria after WWII. The selection of cakes were such as I had never seen or really heard of before. Delicious but rich rich rich. The ladies were doing a thriving trade and stinted nothing either in their goods or in presentation. I remember the occasion clearly today almost 60 years later....
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

Frybabe

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #111 on: July 21, 2009, 01:09:03 PM »
I got curious about a painter named Klimt of whom I have never heard. He was mentioned in the paragraph where Dr. Hirschfeldt reminisced about the night out with his wife the night before. The painter is Gustav Klimt. I was expecting some oddities like Picasso when Brooks wrote "the man had a very odd conception of the female anatomy". I actually quite like these paintings. Here is a website dedicated to him and his works. Nicely done:   http://www.iklimt.com/   If you go to the Timeline, you can click on the little red X's to enlarge the picture and read a little about it. There is a slider to move along the timeline. Enjoy!

JoanK

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #112 on: July 21, 2009, 01:59:36 PM »
Not that I'm obsessed by food or anything, but I couldn't let pass That "Waves of Danube" cake that Hanna is served by her mentor. Here is a picture, and recipe for a "much less rich cake". Maybe I'll make one and bring it to the discussion, but I have to lose 20 or 30 pounds first in preparation. ;)

http://germanfood.about.com/od/baking/r/donauwellen.htm

fairanna

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #113 on: July 21, 2009, 03:22:16 PM »
Joan thank you for the cake recipe but when I read the recipe I realized many years ago I made one   We belonged to a group who met monthly at someones home for dinner and the hostess chose the menu , usually a foreign one. The night I baked the cake I think it was a German night but am not sure >>but it was the recipe or close to it ..the hostess gave me the recipe and I can tell you it was was wonderful but I am glad I didn't know how many calories because I am sure it was twice what the rest of the meal contained. We all loved it but the men finished it and there was none to take home..Which was good because I wouldn't have wanted to become addicted to it ! Reading is really a learning process...there is the book, the discussions of what may or may not be true . and learning about the what the characters do .and most of all giving thought to everyones ideas ...thanks for that

straudetwo

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #114 on: July 21, 2009, 08:24:12 PM »
Annie,  German is a "pluricentric" language, and Austrians speak it with their own distinctive dalect.

Frybabe,  that's what is so fascinating about the cultural pearls  which Hanna weaves into the narrative.
Klimt became famous in his day and was awarded a medal by Emperor Franz Joseph.  His fame endures. His paintings sell for millions of dollars.

It was an especially fertile time for arts, literature, music. Composer Gustav Mahler Das Lied von der Erde is of this period. His wife Alma, 20 years his junior, was a composer and painter in her own right. But Mahler wanted her to be a wife only. After his death she married architect Walter Gropius of 'Bauhaus' fame. After divorcing him, she married Franz Werfel The Songof Bernadette.
Werfel and Alma fled Vienna after Hitler's takeover of Austria in 1938 and in 1941 they fled to the U.S. on one of the last boats to leave Lisbon.

Gumtree, your points are well taken.  That is what I meant when I said that some of the details are "de trop"= a bit too elaborately embroidered.  

Re the famous Viennese pastries.  
Two Viennese tortes are classics,
 one  is the "Sachertorte",  named for novelist Leopold von Sacher-Masoff (The Legacy of Cain"]). His extreme preferences became known as masochism.
The other is the  Linzertorte.  Both tortes are dense, not too rich, neither extremely sweet. Google has pith-watering pictures.

Radioman

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #115 on: July 21, 2009, 08:41:18 PM »
I’m just getting started and have a lot of catching up to do, but the insightful posts that I have read will be of immense help in getting into the swing of things.

Starting with the protagonist: do I like her?  No.  Do I respect her?  Yes.   Does she love her mother?   Yes, in a love-hate kind of relationship which I regard as form of professional competitiveness.
As for the way she goes about her task we see a perfectionist at work; evident from the beginning as she arranged the tools of her trade, and trembled with excitement, knowing that she was handling a most precious commodity.  The fact that she was not wearing gloves is not significant in any profound way because no matter how delicately they are made they would be an impediment in handling the minutiae with which she was required to deal.  Sterility was not an issue and in my opinion neither were gloves.

As for the love/lust affair, was it really necessary in developing the characters?  I found it to be a distraction which contributed little to the story .  And where I find a touch of incredibility creeping in is where he declines help in the treatment of his child.  What parents in their right minds would not grab at any straw which could offer a hope of recovery?

The first part of the second chapter was quite moving for me.  Setting it up as she did, the author gave us a picture of peaceful coexistence viciously shattered by Nazi thugs and sympathizers.  Perhaps it’s my deep involvement in Jewish theatre,  and other aspects of that faith community  that caused me to feel the despair and horror as families suffered those final separations.
Once past that we got an adventure story of a brave girl who overcame long odds, although the
dialogue of that ten-year-old was unbelievably precocious and proved to be a strain upon  her credibility somewhat.

So now, back to the book.
Polonius:  What do you read my lord?
Hamlet:    Words,  words,  words

JoanK

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #116 on: July 21, 2009, 09:41:00 PM »
DON: WELCOME, WELCOME!!

Interesting and sad that the second adventure takes place in Vienna, surely one of the cultural capitals of the world, with its music and art, and one of the few times we'll see where Jews are not actively being killed for being Jewish, and yet the picture GB presents is of misery, self-centeredness, and debauchery. Is this the best culture can produce?

It is good, however, that GB shows us what the "good times" for Jews were like. Yes, Jews are not being killed, and can even rise to some promenance, but only by taking the jobs that no one else wants (such as treating syphillus), downplaying their Jewishness, or fighting as the young soldier does.

straudetwo

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #117 on: July 21, 2009, 11:15:00 PM »
Welcome, Don!  I'm glad you joined us.

I use this opportunity to report - for the sake of good order - that PopChar is working  perfectly now so that I can demonstrate what  Fräulein actually looks and should look like.
 :D
Traude
 




Frybabe

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #118 on: July 22, 2009, 12:16:15 AM »
Hi Don, It's wonderful to see you here.

I have a notion to check out Google maps or Google Earth to visit Boston but I am too tired just now. My youngest niece will be starting college this fall in Boston, but I have forgotten which one at the moment.

Babi

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #119 on: July 22, 2009, 09:26:40 AM »
Quote
I remember the occasion clearly today almost 60 years later....
Gum, I suppose that means the tea shop is no longer in existence. (sigh)

 I had heard of Klimt before, but don't remember where. I appreciated the
chance to view some of his paintings.  The nude figure were slim and willowy
and in some cases the musculature was exaggerated. Otherwise I didn't see
that the anatomy was all that strange.  Was this the period when Rubens-type
figures were in style?

  JOANK, having viewed that scrumptious looking cake, I believe our "Boston
Cream Pie" must be a derivation of it. They look very similar,ie.,
cake and custard with chocolate icing.

  I was intrigued by the reference to an abdicating Pope.  I didn't know such
a thing had ever happened, ...or could happen.  I went looking, and found
the following:
  
   http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03479b.htm  

(For some reason, this link will not transpose to a clickable when I post. If
you want to check it out, you'll have to copy and paste.)
 

 
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs