Faith!  Good grief, send it "media mail. " It is ever so much cheaper.  You just have to tell them at the PO that it is reading material.

Traude: I am so happy to have you here, you are an example of a dissenting, honest but civilized, mannerly voice.

It's a good thing, though, that we haven't started. In view of the national tragedy that has befallen us, and its horrible implications, I for one need time to cope, first.

May all your friends and relatives in the New York area be accounted for. With appreciation, T

š jane›

Gailie R:   Welcome to our discussion, we are delighted to have you with us to discuss how Beck's family has "taken her for granted" as you have so aptly put it.  It surely does appear that she is living vicariously thru this  "family" doesn't it?   Don't you love that first page quote "The Davitches's cars circled the meadow like covered wagons braced for attack?"  They all interloop and lace together these kids.  It reminded me of cattle who are used to being herded  and congregated in a particular manner. The dark Davitch children are forever  at the core  of Rebecca's existence  (also on the perimeter) as we meet them at Elinor's (NoNos's) engagement party to Barry who was "sprung on them," according to Patch.  Rebecca "opened her mouth to argue because she was almost  postivie that Patch and Biddy had requested this picnic." I could take page by page and shriek at these words.  As gailie said "she misses a life of her own."  Or does she have a life without them?

Wilan is right!  She has allowed herself to be used.  Yet, doesn't that make her who she is?  Hasn't their "neediness" dictated her position in this family?

Faith stated: I wonder as I read, how Beck's relationship with these daughters got so full of love and rejection at the same time.  Actually Faith, don't you think that this is the point here as she begins to question that very thing?  Is she feeling  the weight of her second skin?  Is she ready to shed this exterior Rebecca?
Harriet  said:   "She marries Joe and slips into her new cheery personality as if it's a second skin. How come it takes more than twenty five years for her to notice that there's someone else inside her, whimpering to be let out?

So may I just jump in here to say that yes, to a certain extent our families do indeed determine (though not necessarily dictate ) the direction of our lives, if not our fate. It may well have to do with our own ideas of what we would like to do or to be when we 'grow up', how we end up or whom we want or need to please (parents ? inlaws ? ourselves ?). May I be permitted to say on the basis of my own experience that drastic changes are possible and can be a salvation.

As for Beck, I was intrigued by the beginning of the book. I should add in all sincerity that Ann Tyler can do no wrong in my (biased) eyes. But who in fact has not wondered at some time how he or she would have fared if a different course had been pursued, if that OTHER fork in the road had been taken ?

Also, please give Beck a break. She was shy, unformed, thought she had expectations to fulfill, a pre-ordained future. But nothing is ever as simple as that, is it ?

It's been a while since I read the book and I too was irritated at times (doormat came to my mind a few times), but just go on reading, I say, give it time, think about it, about the whole of human experience and how Ann Tyler expresses it. I predict it will be rewarding.

Betty says these first chapters are devoid of peace.  That hits the nail right on the head, Betty.  Dejection, depression and   repression shadowed by grief abounds during this "portentous" picnic.

No, I don't see any difference in what I've read so far between the girls. I assume the names are childhood nicknames and are used "en famille" as families do. I don't know where Patch or Bidie come from, but Min Foo was explained...and I've just assumed "NoNo" came from either the child saying that...or having to say that repeatedly to this child or that her sisters couldn't say "Elinor" and so it became one baby calling another "NoNo" and the rest did likewise. I don't know any "NoNo"s, but I do know one dear sweet "Mimi" and a "Honey Lou" (who's in her mid 70s, but it's a family nickname used by everyone in the family.)

Some children seem to be absolute copies/products of the parents, and others seem to have skipped generations or have so few parental/family characteristics that the famous "mailman/milkman" as father joke is common.

I thought that the picnic/the parties/the toast, etc. was because it was the "family business" and so must be done...to show others that this is how one "does things." I put it down as an occupational hazard...ie, people who own clothing shops think clothing is a big deal and spend time/money on clothes; people who give parties for a living give parties and think they're a big deal; people who are florists think having fresh flowers around at all times is normal, etc.

š jane›

Ginny:  I don't know anyone named NoNo.  As for me, I was always a yes-yes kinda gal.

Everyone of these kids are moody,   immersed in their own selves! Biddy , our fruity nutritionist, NEEDS her companion Troy.  Poor Peter screams "need" even while he proclaims his distaste for this family and acts like a cornered deer, running from Beck.

š jane›

I don't think they dictate. They can have a good or bad influence--ie, encouraging/discouraging the individual, but it's the individual who chooses his own path.

š jane›

Faith, I like your post and say "more power !" to you. There is something reassuring in a firm family structure and regular dinner hours. They are a comfort, signs of a safe haven in an often uncertain world.

Beck's life changed radically when she married into that odd, chaotic family. She did not push her way in, she did not do this for self-glorification, did not deliberately enforce her will on them. Rather, she FELL into the job. Organizing parties was, after all, the family's way of making a living, something that became an ever more costly, burdensome task as the house deteriorated around them.

Beck became the "boss", she answered the phone, made the plans, kept the books and shored up everyone's morale, one day at a time, every day, year after year. She became the rock on which everyone relied. Even the motherless, clearly indulged, initially recalcitrant children came to accept and love her in their own way.

It was Beck who dealt with the repairmen and worried about budgets in an increasingly depressed neighborhood, and about juggling whatever income there was to pay for the most urgent of ongoing repair jobs on the house that threatened to fall down on them. She HAD to be cheerful no matter what ! And boy , was she ever inventive !

Yet, is it any wonder that one day she looked in the mirror in the midst of whatever new crisis that had arisen and found herself thinking (and I paraphrase) "How did I come to be here ? What ever happened to the life I had planned ? Can this be me ? Is this all there is ? Forever ? What if I had followed the original plan ?"

In each successive book Tyler shows us, I think, - through her protagonists and their fictional lives - the societal changes that have taken place in our own lifetime- the flight from the cities, the barrenness of some desolate suburban landscapes; the changing emotional landscapes and sexual mores : living together vs. marital "commitment", interracial marriage, the acceptance of repeated divorces, and conversely the relationships that can develop between unlikely partners in a marital union.

Tyler shows us the unhappiness of the children of divorce who, like Peter, are unwilling and afraid to become involved with another set of unknown people, worried of losing them once again. Such fear and insecurity can cause the hostility Peter displayed. Watch how everyone develops, including Peter, and - in a later chapter - watch for a certain plant and what its appearance seems to indicate.

When Beck was catapulted by her marriage into a wholly different life, it was simply "sink or swim". And swim she did, quite successfully-- though without a clue of her ostensible destiny : to become the emotional and practical anchor of every family member.

You are all wonderful, Thank you for sharing your impressions and insights.

All I can say now is this : please, PLEASE give yourselves a chance to further evaluate Beck as she appears in subsequent chapters; please don't prejudge her, or her possible motives. It takes time to take the measure of a person, in life and also in fiction. Happy Reading !

To paraphrase Gailie - early childhood experiences CAN and are known to have an enormous influence on the psyche of children. Of course we have yet to determine, as Ginny said, what "destiny" has to do with any of this, and what it is.

Back is trying too hard for what reason though?  I figure it is ONLY because it is expected of her and that grates.  I had never considered your thought before of what a woman would write if asked to list what each family member needed.  God, that is scary and you are correct.  How many of us would list ourselves?  That question would warrant an all day tea party as far as I'm concerned.  Wonderful reflection, Betty.  Why now though?  WHY is it now , at this point, that Rebecca is questioning  who the heck is Beck?  Did the water reflect those thoughts?

Can you feel the depression and repression of this family?  Are they all reflecting the loss of Joe, of their weird mother and of their situations?  Peter has a reason .  What about the others?  They're all adrift aren't they?

Back is trying too hard for what reason though?  I figure it is ONLY because it is expected of her and that grates.  I had never considered your thought before of what a woman would write if asked to list what each family member needed.  God, that is scary and you are correct.  How many of us would list ourselves?  That question would warrant an all day tea party as far as I'm concerned.  Wonderful reflection, Betty.  Why now though?  WHY is it now , at this point, that Rebecca is questioning  who the heck is Beck?  Did the water reflect those thoughts?

Can you feel the depression and repression of this family?  Are they all reflecting the loss of Joe, of their weird mother and of their situations?  Peter has a reason .  What about the others?  They're all adrift aren't they?

A good thing, I said, because there is much, MUCH more to come and - after reading only two chapters - we have no way of making sense of Beck's recurrent dream about the teenage boy.

Mag I say, as an inveterate, biased fan of Tyler's, appearances are deceptive in her novels; nothing is ever as simple as it may seem. Nor is life, of course.

The name "Open Arms" couldn't be more apt : catering for every conceivable occasion in life--- deemed worthy of being celebrated !! Imagine the infinite patience, preparations, sheer inventiveness of the planning required, of having to be relentlessly cheerful , not only for those parties amid ongoing emergency repairs, but continuously shoring up family members !!

In effect, Beck is the everpresent materfamilias who will set everything aright and to whom the male members invariably defer : the wonderfully wise inherited great-uncle (is it?) and Zeb, the brother inlaw, a shoulder to lean on. But we know that all of us have to recharge our batteries in whatever way needed; and for Beck that was the moment she looked into the mirror at age 53 and wondered.

Many thanks to all. A special Hi There to Betty and a special thankyou.

She tells Poppy to "stop taking inventory " of all his aches and pains.  Hasn't she been taken inventory also?  "Gradually her pen  grew slower.  She took longer to reach for each new bill, until finally she came to a halt and just sat staring into space."

That is what happened to Beck, I think. And it is, of course, a wonderfully clever literary device for the start of a book, isn't it ? To jump right in without a preamble of any sort ?!! Someone (was it BaBi?) mentioned Tyler's genius the other day; and that's what it is !! As has been expressed by Harriet, HATS, Alf, Brumie, Paige and others, it is well worth reading carefully, and re-reading; everything carries weight. Nothing should be overlooked, and things will become clearer, gradually and in surprising ways, including the recurrent dream.

Perhaps we can talk about dreams some more --

I will never forget a post of yours many months ago -- perhaps it was during the discussion of THE HUMAN STAIN, but it really doesn't matter. You had gotten up in the middle of the night and shared a thought, a small epiphany it was. It helped me immensely, but I don't think I acknowledged that post at the time : I was still new here then and reticent. I will certainly do better in the future. Besides, there is no question of how much we mean to each other and how special our sharing.

Thank you, Jo and Faith.

There was something else in one of Betty's recent posts that resonated with me; it had to do with the lasting influence of one's mother. I have no intention to veer into the personal or depart from the discussion of this remarkable book, but I want to express, again, my gratitude to all of you. I know of no place online or off where anything like this exchange is taking place, so generously and freely offered.

Wishing you a safe night.

Relative to a theme for this portion of the book, I might have called it "Exploring Change" : Since it is inevitable, how do we react to it ? Do we learn from it ? Are we doomed by it or uplifted ?

All of you have valid wonderful points; BaBi put her fingers on it precisely, I believe : In all of her previous novels Tyler has described the human condition, relationships, what we expect of them and what they mean to us, how perceptions change us --- and she has done it with equanimity and without violent confrontations. THAT is precisely the reason why the reader feels so satisfied in the end and enriched. Just my opinion.

Tyler can be very lyrical, and her metaphor of the river is particularly appropriate. As for hollowness (perhaps a companion to questioning of the road not chosen) - I 'll comment later.

I am not sure whether Rebecca really dreamed of Willard; after all, she had no idea what happened to him; isn't it more likely that she was nostalgic for what COULD have been in her own life, that she dreamed of her own unfulfilled hopes ?That isn't all that unusual now, is it ?

Of course the mother and the aunt (what a character !!) found Rebecca changed -- and how not so ?? The two of them, the mother and in the aunt in all their disparity, were hanging on to their way of life coping with old age, but united in a way, wondering how in the world studious Rebecca's life could possibly have taken this completely unorthodox, unpredictable turn, and would there be any chance to reverse course yet again, so late in the day ?

As I said, I think we must savor, consider carefully and not jump to conclusionds too early.

Ginny, I am not sure Beck had time for friends in her busy life. She doesn't seem to miss them though. But the bachelor brother-in-law was a friend, wasn't he ? And what about the wise uncle ? He may well be the most endearing character in the book--- but that is a hard choice.

They are all worth watching -- nothing happens rapidly in a Tyler novel; after all, things don't happen in life overnight either. There are surprises ahead. It's too early to judge whether Beck had turned into the wrong person or not. That is only a question she is asking herself - she and the reader won't know until the end. And it is going to be one fine literary journey.

I always find it interesting that some people view the "road not taken" as if it would have been perfect. The "if only I'd married XXX, I'd be happy and wealthy and thin and gorgeous and yada, yada, yada." Why do people assume that it would have been better than where they are now? There's no guarantee for Rebecca that life with ol' Willard would have been "clean and simple." Maybe it would have been horrific and abusive.

Yes, I do wonder about the old boyfriends on occasion when something triggers those memories. In my own case, I hope they are well and happy, etc. for I thought they were wonderful people, and I assume those who are alive still are.

I have not completed through chapter 5...just working through Mother and Aunt Ida. I wonder if Rebecca thinks being a "grownup" is being a carbon copy of her mother and this is what she'd have been had she stayed at home and married Will?

š jane›

the town appeared to be liquified by the heat

"The funniest thing," she told her mother. Lately I've started loving rivers."
"Loving them!"
"I've always liked them, of course; but I look at a river now and it just satisfies my eyes, you know? It seems to me so...old-fashioned."

Don't we just think we were all grownup at that point in our lives? to grow up, one must advance, flower and mature. Bless her heart Beck has done that BUT--- at home she "She opened her eyes in the dark and felt a deep ache of regret." Is this truly regret? Is she disappointed or is this merely nostalgia?

Why do people assume that it would have been better than where they are now? There's no guarantee for Rebecca that life with ol' Willard would have been "clean and simple." Maybe it would have been horrific and abusive.

I totally understand her fantasy which she prefers to her life therefore the fantasy is real life and real life is her "fake" real life. I get it.

thank you for your posts. And THANK YOU for summing up the chapters in which Tina appears. As I said, my book has long since been returned to the library, and I could not remember what precisely happened in which chapters, and I did not pay any attention to the cover (sorry to say) at that time, so have no recollection.

And yes, that was the perfect summation of this family get-together (the family versus Beck !!!). The daughters, having gloried in the memory of their mother who left them, realized (got an inkling, I should say, of) the selfishness of this shallow woman versus Beck's SAVING beneficial influence in their lives. Merciful Lord, what would have happened to the lot of them if Beck had NOT stayed ?

Tina had a small epiphany when she was in the kitchen with Beck, and the reader gets a clear impression of how Tina felt inferior (whether she admitted it to even herself or not). The description of the appearance of the women is wonderful, of course, and there will be further references coming in the book.

No, I don't think the book is humorous. There are no back-slapping, rip-roaring jokes here. Tyler presents slices of life : and life is bitter sweet at best, sometimes more bitter than sweet. (Humor or comedy may be but a relief valve ----) But there are sparks of unexpected humor in her books, as there are in life. AND the best thing IMHO is that she presents a cast of characters, describes their quotidian trials and tribulations, their idiosyncracies, pettiness, animosities- and what they do about them, or not ----and lets the readers come to their own conclusion.. And that is what we are all doing here so brilliantly ! Hurray to us !!!

Now, concerning "hollow", I am not sure when that came up in the book. All I can say is that many of us who labor for a long time for others and for a common goal, whatever it is, feel exhausted (hollow) after a time and are in dire need to have our "batteries recharged" or wishfully think of the proverbial "shot in the arm". And I believe this is indicative of a transitory stage in Beck's life who, I think, is theepitome of good will, patience, and optimism.

We can compare her to her mother and aunt later on (and also compare the mother and the aunt !), and there are some precious, TELLING moments coming up with Will. Just stay tuned.

On CHANGE : Yes we change. With every calendar day and every gray hair, whether we notice, resent it, mind it or not. There it is. CHANGE. An acknowledged scientific fact, not in dispute.

As for GROWNUPS, in the book title and generally speaking : I think the title of the book is tongue-in-cheek, and witty too. I wuld love to elaborate on the theory I have developed, but that would clearly violate one of the cardinal rules here ----- i.e. NOT to divulge anything prematurely. Could we please hold off a little ?

Hats:  I tip mine, to you!  I don't  believe there is an ounce of humor in this book.  It is pathetic!  I love your quote abount languishing in a "soft baby blanket."  Like a caccoon, protected?  I would thing we would all agree with you on the premise that Tyler is making mention of "just the tip of the iceberg" of life.
Do we ever not "long for"  something as you noted?
Poppy lends a chuckle but he too is suffering from despair of missing his wife and living in the "yesteryear" as Rebecca is doing.  He is a disintegrating victim of nostalgia through his age and his disease processes.  As Wilan suggests, Poppy is  fortunate to have Beck tending to his needs.
NOONE in this novel is a grownup.  Even little Aunt Ida cooks with Fruit Loops.  Will, too, is living in the memory of young love and rejection.  Get over it!!  Don't get me wrong -  I, too , am a kid at heart but the grownup distinction award goes to not one character yet.

Babi: that is an honor to be singled out as different , funny, odd.  My kids still think I'm odd.  When they brought their new- found friends into our home they would always say, "don't pay any atention to my mom when she teases you, she's funny."  they could never explain that statement but I loved it!

Traude:  You are welcome to develop your own opinion , most certainly!!!  As long as we don't divulge future chapters I believe is the cardinal rule.  I have poblems with that theory myself and must always pull in my own reins.

A few years back when I was a volunteer reader for TIC = Talking Information Center, a non-profit radio station that broadcasts for the hearing impaired, the producer allowed me to read that book on the air in regular installments. I had chosen it on purpose--- not without some trepidation, mind you ! But it was an unforgettable sharing experience for me, and the calls to the station from listeners confirmed that the feeling was mutual.

Brumie, thank you for the helpful background information. Yes, Tyler describes "quirky" people (and we all know one or two of those). And she does it with infinite care, gets into their thought processes with her uncanny powers of observation. Not all her fans were happy with LADDER OF YEARS, especially the ending. But in each book she describes the contemporary scene - and that often includes a dissatisfied wife. The scene is always Baltimore and environs, but it could be duplicated anywhere !

I see that we seem to agree on Will, who is not attractive. A bit pedantic, I would say, but wasn't that somehow predictable ?

Yes, BaBi, I feel exactly like you. Will was sort of "narrow" from the beginning - had his and Rebecca's life carefully planned out in meticulous detail (think of those pencils and notebooks arranged in the same regular formation on the library table). Surprises were not on his agenda. It was logical that he would be so profoundly shaken when Rebecca left him in such haste -- and without explanation. One does feel a bit sorry for him. But as you said so well, 19-year olds rarely have compassion. That comes (IF it does) later in life.

Ginny, it's too early to come out with my theory on "grownups" because it is based on material we haven't read yet. I did not intend to slow down anyone else, however.

I was a bit puzzled by Beck at first and found myself smiling in disbelief a few times; the word "door mat" occurred to me early on, but I just kept reading and let the story and her character unfold. Even if I had had the impulse to shake her (and I didn't), it wouldn't have done any good. Tyler is in charge, after all.

I am not sure that the "points" remark is to be taken totally seriously ("bloody" seriously, as the Brits say). Moreover, did Beck really think of herself as an altruist ? She was not one to boast. There is no indication that she was self-absorbed or considered herself a martyr. She DID do wonders for the Open Arms and had an inexhaustible supply of new party ideas, some silly of course, but let's face it ---some parties are silly ! And she worked wonders on the extended family as well, she gave them room to breathe and do their own "thing", still observing and guiding gently. In the process she found herself - a different self altogether, cheerful and unshy---- and VERY far removed from Will in every sense.

I like her and I can picture her quite well. I tend to think that Poppy is perhaps the most endearing character, as I have said already. Do we have to decide now whom we like and whom we don't ? Does it matter ? Could we conceivably change an opinion later on ?

Have we talked yet about the comfort, the unifying force and essential element food is in this book ? I think it is wonderful.

Yes, BaBi, I feel exactly like you. Will was sort of "narrow" from the beginning - had his and Rebecca's life carefully planned out in meticulous detail (think of those pencils and notebooks arranged in the same regular formation on the library table). Surprises were not on his agenda. It was logical that he would be so profoundly shaken when Rebecca left him in such haste -- and without explanation. One does feel a bit sorry for him. But as you said so well, 19-year olds rarely have compassion. That comes (IF it does) later in life.

Ginny, it's too early to come out with my theory on "grownups" because it is based on material we haven't read yet. I did not intend to slow down anyone else, however.

I was a bit puzzled by Beck at first and found myself smiling in disbelief a few times; the word "door mat" occurred to me early on, but I just kept reading and let the story and her character unfold. Even if I had had the impulse to shake her (and I didn't), it wouldn't have done any good. Tyler is in charge, after all.

I am not sure that the "points" remark is to be taken totally seriously (bloody seriously, as the Brits say). Moreover, did Beck really think of herself as an altruist ? She was not one to boast. There is no indication that she was self-absorbed nor considered herself a martyr. She DID do wonders for the Open Arms and had an inexhaustible supply of new party ideas, some silly of course, but let's face it ---some parties are silly ! And she worked wonders on the extended family as well, she gave them room to breathe and do their own "thing", still observing and guiding gently. In the process she found herself - a different self altogether, cheerful and unshy.

I like her and I can picture her quite well. I tend to think that Poppy is perhaps the most endearing character, as I have said already. Do we have to decide now whom we like and whom we don't ? Does it matter ? Could we conceivably change an opinion later on ?

Have we talked yet about the comfort, the unifying force and essential element food is in this book ? I think it is wonderful.

I don't mean to be pretentious but I think Tyler would be pleased to see what depths of discussion her book has engendered here.

do not want to repeat any themes but did note on a recent post the idea that perhaps R let events shape her choices. I would like to also consider that our choices shape events- not just those events that touch us but collective events- almost like the definition of event is a series of choices. also do not wish to backslide, since i was not here in the beginning, but i wanted to share that i was surprised at my own reaction when reading this book, especially the opening chapters- i thought that i would have been angry with a R type character- but i actually felt comfortable around her, i saw within her a strength and i was thinking she was 'pretending' to feel put upon and 'pretending' to act as if she feels less than she is. i was thinking of the feminist issue of the 80's about stayathome vs. career women. many women who stayed home, relished their roles outside of the workplace somehow thought they SHOULD FEEL less than who they were.

so though i agree with the observations of hollowness, i think it is the collective hollowness that most humans feel- the inability to truly connect- which i think is interesting in itself- why we as a species are so determined to be connected at some esoteric level with only other humans.....

"It wouldn't be the actual Award Winning Swordfish in any case, sir, " the waiter said, "because that one was eaten by the judges."

The silence was that obvious kind where every gesture becomes important. The slightest turn of her wrist seemed almost to make a noise.

People imagine that missing a loved one works kind of like missing cigarettes....easier and easier the longer you go on. But instead it's like missing water. NB: there's that water image again!) Every day, you noticed the person's absence more.

Rebecca had sometimes sensed some other quality, a glimmer of something like desperation, lying just benetath the surface of Joe's exhuberance. On occasion she had thought she detected a hollow LOOK LOOK!! "hollow!!!" note in his voice, a forced heartiness as he welcomed guests.

Welcome back, Paige - get well soon !

Ginny, wonderful post. Will go into it in more detail when I have more time. Just a few thoughts now :

There is a great deal (pages, in fact) about dignity in Kazuo Ishiguro's REMAINS OF THE DAY, for example; it is one quality we cannot live without, I think. Countless examples could be cited.

Water is the source of life and quintessential to our existence. Without it we die. That, I think, is the implied connection. Rebecca (Tyler) feels the loss as keenly as when it first happened, despite the passage of time. Perhaps that is a veiled personal reference of Tyler's who lost her own husband a few books ago, and there was mention of it in the introductory pages of one of them. I can't remember which book it was, perhaps LADDER OF YEARS. But I am not sure.

Yes, it is said that like-minded friends and mates are likely to find each other, but there is another proverb that says "Opposites attract". I'm not sure either theory is valid for EVERYONE, and that instead many other factors come into play as well.

I am so glad WILAN posted to say that she likes Rebecca. I too had the "doormat" thought originally, but then saw another side of a courageous woman with boundless energy on whom many responsibilities were heaped, and to whom relatively little practical or emotional help was given (mostly by the repairmen). But there are Poppy and Zeb. And I admire what she has done in the face of adversity and find her charming.

Our intent throughout this read has been to post certain themes in the assigned chapters and we all have blossomed so much since beginning.  As our discussion continues,  I think it would a lot of fun to have you all, as the participants, choose the two major  themes for this weeks read.  We could kick it around a bit and all agree on the basic idea for the subject matter.   What slant  is AT trying to convey in these 3 chapters as she puts her words down on paper?   Where is she piloting us?

The Davitch'es get a scare when ole poppy develops an acute attack of indigestion necessitating a trip to the hspital.  Why is it that it takes such an exteme event to occur  before we take note of those we love?  The loss of Poppy's  presence in Beck's life seems to shock her.

I've really not found anything humorous in this book. I thought the workers conversation outside provided such a stark contrast to both Will's and Rebecca's lives to date. The man outside was up to his ears in personal relationships, and the people on the inside had been devoid of any personal relationship for years. It sounds to me as if nobody has truly cared about Rebecca, Rebecca's happiness, Rebecca's well-being since Joe died--assuming Joe did and wasn't just wanting a built-in nanny/mother for these spoiled children. I'm not even sure, as you can see, about ol' Joe.

Will has had nobody apparently since the birth of his daughter or some years thereafter, and there's no indication of what that relationship truly was.

Zeb seems to be the only one in Rebecca's "family" who cares about her as a person. Peter may grow into such a person. I don't hold much hope that the others will ever leave their own self-centered little worlds.

š jane›

š jane›

I'm with you Faith, Poppy is my kinda guy and reminds me of my father in law.  He always acted so grumpy and cantakerous but he had a heart bigger than he was and his gripping had just become an annoying  habit.  (It caught everyone's attention.) I can just imagine me cajoling  and scolding Poppy for misbehaving, just as I used to do with dad.  Ginny:  What is it about Poppy that you don't feel is true to life?  Yilin:  Poppy is nearing 100.  I'm not sure that it is as much  "egotism" as it is cerebral atrophy.  When folks get on up there they have a tendency to become more childlike.  (I can hardly wait)
 
Harriet:  Will remembered those points  about Rebecca, yes, but was it because of his adoration for Beck or because he stayed lost in that time frame, never moving on?  Isn't that a sad truth about youth being wasted on the young?  The young ALL think that they are the grownups and have reached maturity.
Brumie treated us with another review of  AT and I love that statement about the realization of losses that the passage of time can bring.  THT could be discussed forever.  Brumie:  Was this in the review or is this your own thought?

If the concept of a nostalgic  4-year-old strikes you as laughable, well, think about why that should be. Isn't it because children begin as creatures of the moment? And doesn't growing up mean the dawning knowledge that all moments are joined, each memoment linked inexorable to the one that follows?"
Brilliant question!!

Brumie: Couldn't you just hug that Peter for asking Beck to attend his school on Grandparents Day?
The losses that the passage of time can bring are realized.  I'm going to mull that one over for a long time.

Who could blame R for getting a feeling of emptiness after all those many years of stewardship ? As Paige said so eloquenty 'no one can drink from an empty cup'. Through her characters the author imparts her own philosophical perceptions here to a certain extent-- I'm inclined to think, but they are HER opinions and even if we don't subcribe to them, we can hardly find the author wrong. < P> some of us I daresay have had self doubts at one time or another, and there is no shame in that. We react to life and our respective circumstances according to our own makeup; some people are hesitant, even 'tentative' in their approach, others are born to take charge ! What matters is the outcome, because of the road taken !!

Yes, I think the reader is taken on a journey, and yes ALF, I think Will was written into the book deliberately.

It has taken me a long time to peck this out with one finger of the wrong hand and a disobedient confused mouse. The operated-on hand is unusable. Must now elevate. Sorry for sloppy apearance.

Jane & Babi:  I think I would have made the move on Zeb by now.  What is with these two?  They'd be a great match.  They communicate and truly seem to care about one another, don't they?.  The section where Zeb and Poppy come home early, embarassing R.  reads like a Neil Simon  comedy.

Mac:  There will be sequel by the time you get the book read.  Why not wait until you get here to Fla and take mine for your reading pleasure?

Betty:  Do you really think she is fantasizing?  Is she imaging something?  I guess I just see it as  reverie.  She's so damned phony, turning her feeling on and off, mustering enthusiasm for everyone but herself.   What did you think of the statement that   Their past was a bolt of fabric they had scissored up and divided between them? 

Didn't you love it where she thought she had been so political?  hahaha "She had picketed the cafteria on behalf of the underpaid workers, marched again the Nam war and filled her door with anti-nuclear stickers."   Now she can barely bring herself to vote!  That's political???  Good thing she didn't hang with our crowd in the early 60's.

Traude mentions the 3 foot tall, bizarre plant with monstrous, lumpy green leaves speckled a  sulphur yellow that came in a red-rimmed white bowl and  looked like a chamber pot.  The reason Will chose this plant was because he was told it would be impossible to kill.  By the sounds of that ugly tree, I'd gladly kill it without any problem!!

When R. came into the lives of the steps, they rejected her, wanted nothing to do with her and still longed for their real mother. By the time the reader meets them, they have accepted Rebecca and listen to her, leave their children in her temporary care and cooperate when it suits their schedules. That is a positive development, I believe, even though the young women are as unhappy as ever.

Will's daughter, on the other hand, is downright hostile, and the reader wonders what made her that way. Of course we feel sorry for Will, but wasn't it rather mean-spirited, even a cruel, of him to nab the little dog ?

Yes there is sex because it is a part of life, but it is not explicit in Tyler's books. When Rebecca thinks of Will as "a much more satisfying fantasy", sex is probably part of it. But he also remembers her as she was way back when she wore that special cloak that made her look like Robin Hood.

It has occurred to me that Tyler may be an "acquired taste". She has been writing for more than 30 years (this book is # 15), and certain themes recur : the quest for the self, the possibility of, and the need for change, the search for being or becoming the "right" person, the importance of family. Her characters are always a little "odd" and engaged in slightly unusual occupations (puppetry in MORGAN'S PASSING); they also take their time to "get where they are going". That was true especially in LADDER OF YEARS (a mother and wife of a doctor abruptly leaves her vacationing family sunning at the beach and immerses herself in a completely new life).

I wanted to respond to posts from Paige and Alf but I got lost there for a moment, and tired. Will re-read with care and write more tomorrow (if i can).

John Updike has said of Tyler "Not merely good --- she is wickedly good !"

I look forward to the discussion of the entire book and all the themes next week.

Back to (not so sunny )Rebecca of Open Arms Farm!  I think that we are all pretty much in agreement about her being unable to recapture the past.  Yuk, he kissed her. It was more pressing and intense, more insistent, and she felt no response.  "Gracious" was her response.   Chuckle, chuckle.

š jane›

A truly satisfying discussion of a book can only come after each book club member has not merely read the book, but probed below the surface....look deeply into a book's character: how is it structured? What is the author's intent? As the reader you are accepting an obligation to hear the story teller's tale. The key word is hear. It does not mean accepting at face value the words on the page.

To more fully appreciate the writer's creative skill, go beyond the superficial entertainment to hear the writer's message.

What did the writer want to accomplish or express?

Examine the individual parts--the writing style, plot snd character development, for example--and consider how the writer has put them together into a whole, sometimes larger than the sum of its parts.

While you're tunneling through the substructure of a book--and even during discussion--think: "controversy" rather than seeking a safe consensus.

As individuals, you and your co members will eeach hear, envision, and interpret particular aspects of the book--plot, characters, thesis--differenetly. Use these differences to enliven your discussion. Open up and share your views.

1. Same as before
2. Same as before
3. Same as before.

Do you think that R has in fact suffocated them all with all her "joyfulness" so that they never have had the opportunity to develop themselves? When she doesn't do the MC schtick at Thanksgiving, it's one of the newer "outsiders"--Barry or Hakim (???)-- who picks up the ball...not one of the daughters.

Has she done so much for them, in the way of providing entertainment/family functions, that they're now grown women and incapable of doing anything themselves?

Yikes! This gets more depressing as I think about it.

I have also enjoyed the lively discussion and the many great insights everyone has contributed. But I do confess to having been saddened after reading the last paragraph of Ginny's # 335, beginning with " Would the book be different, would you feel differently about Rebecca if the supporting players in this book were not so negatively exaggerated?" and specifically the sentence "Would it have been more difficult to write that story well ?" . I didn't know what to say after that. You see, I think the story IS written well.

To get the definitive answer on the author's intent, we would have to ask her. I happen to believe she presented a slice of life, the life of people from her universe (hers, not ours !) which is populated by sometimes befuddled characters, and, whether she intended to or not, she makes the reader think and be grateful for what he/she has. How much deeper can we burrow ?

And how about brilliant Peter who (at the picnic) had "the shocked, frozen look of a hijacking victim" and eventually, nurtured by R., created the glass box with the intricate system of pivots, sockets and rods, so the marbles striking upon the metal plate produced the sounds of do, re, mi, fa, sol . Well !

And Poppy, still lucid at 99, provides (Tyler's) wise observations; it is he who says to R. : "Face it. There is no true life. Your true life is the one you end up with, whatever it may be. You just do the best you can with what you've got."

And THAT realization is perhaps what makes one a grownup, ultimately. Therein may even lie the author's intent in writing this book.

I am sorry some of you were so uncomfortable with and irrtitated by Rebecca to the point of disliking her.

Thank you all.

Traude: Another interesting take on this book. It's so neat to see how each of us views it, isn't it.

I guess maybe I thought there was going to be more to this novel. I remember people saying at the beginning, that maybe R was just making the best of the situation, as you say, etc., but then others who had apparently read the book would say..Oh, but just wait, don't make any judgments yet...so I kept thinking...ah, ha...something big is going to happen. I won't have to shake Rebecca after all. There's going to be a real change in these folks, but nothing changed.

So, I think maybe I built up in my mind something earthshaking happening to these folks, and it didn't and perhaps that contributed to my feelings about it.

I'm looking forward to hearing what the others here see here at the end.

This has been a most enjoyable discussion. Thanks to everyone!

What changes dramatically in the present case is Rebecca's OUTLOOK and her rediscovery of her genuine self. Both are factors that determine the rest of her life. The change comes about gradually, not in a spectacular fashion but in a series of small epiphanies, as these radiant moments have been called by James Joyce.

Brumie , exactly and well put : they are all good, decent people. Yes indeed.

The chief emphasis is always on the family and its concerns. The story seems to take place in the here and now - there are marginal references to urban decay, flight to the suburbs, the impersonal malls, the quandary of aging women of what to do with a house, and more. The state of modern marriage is reflected and without criticism solely through the prism of the family. The frequency of divorce, interracial marriage and a step's marriage to a gay man are similarly illustrated, rather than described in sociological terms.

I can't help speculating that perhaps Tyler identified with Rebecca because she too lost her husband, Taghi Modarressi, a psychiatrist, a few books ago, as I've said before. And in the character of Rebecca we may perhaps see some of the author's own traits or propensities.

Just my opinion, of course.

P.S. Just checked my post for errors and found Paige's excellent post. We are thinking along similar lines, it seems.

"One time a man invited Rebecca out, a year or two after Joe's death, and she accepted but then was filed with despair at the sight of the wiry red hairs on his forearms. He wasn't Joe, was the problem."

I have measured out my life with coffee spoons...

Arms that are braceleted and white and bare
[But in the lamplight, downed with light brown hair!]

No! I am not Prince Hamlet, nor was meant to be;
Am an attendant lord, one that will do
To swell a progress, start a scene or two,
Advise the prince; no doubt, an easy tool,
Deferential, glad to be of use,
Politic, cautious, and meticulous;
Full of high sentence, but a bit obtuse;
At times, indeed, almost ridiculous—
Almost, at times, the Fool.

I grow old … I grow old …
I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.

Shall I part my hair behind? Do I dare to eat a peach?
I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each.

I do not think that they will sing to me.

The Atlantic Review says this "Decades ago the author discussed in an interview what sorts of characters were missing from northern fiction. 'There aren't enough quiet, gentle, basically good people in a novel' she answered.' " (emphasis mine)

Ginny, do you see a villain in the story, anyone with sinister, evil intentions ?

Checking the post over for typos, I saw Elizabeth's post just ahead. That is a very good point, Elizabeth. Thank you.

Thank you, Ginny and Andrea, for making it possible once again in this frank, exhaustive discussion.

"I don't think (she is feeling "tamped down again" like she did years ago on the sofa, in his presence) we'll be seeing each other in December."

"Or before then, either."

He took a ragged breath.

"Why?" he asked her.

And when she didn't answer, he said, "Was it something I did?"

No, Will, you didn't do anything."

"Was it your family? Did they not like me?"

She felt a stab of pity (about time). She said "Oh I'm sure they liked you!"

"Or Zeb then?"

"Zeb?"

"He's obviously my competition."

The pity faded. "The fact of the matter is, " she said, "this just won't work, Will. I'm sorry."

Then she stepped forward and pressed her cheek against his. He stood woodenly, not responding. "Goodbye, " she told him.

He said, "Well. Yes. All right. Goodbye, Rebecca."

(page 227).

On page 230 Zeb asks, "you ditched him?"

"Yes, but that's not the problem. The problem is, I've outlived myself."