Balzac and the Little Chinese Seamstress ~ Dai Sij Export

Balzac and the Little Chinese Seamstress by Dai Sijie [China]

The power of books - to excite, to enlighten, to inspire - serves as the theme of this engaging gem by Chinese-born French filmmaker Dai Sijie.

The story takes place at the height of the Cultural Revolution in Mao's China. It describes the "reeducation" of two teenage boys on an isolated rural mountaintop -- a reeducation that proceeds very differently when they discover an unexpected treasure-trove : a suitcase full of forbidden books of Western literature.

The author himself was reeducated in the early 1970s and emigrated to France in 1984.

"A funny, touching, sly and altogether delightful novel" (Washington Post Book World)

Thoughts to Ponder

Do you think the theme the author may have had in mind was trying to recall when China first came to your personal attention or was it President Nixon's bold initiative?

How much did we know about China before that time?

What did we think when the mysterious "window to the east" was opened?

Were you inspired to research Chairman Mao and his little Red Book (mentioned in our book too)?

Do you know of, and were you ever interested in the Chinese dynasties, the manufacture of silk, the Silk Road?

Is our knowledge of China based solely (or mainly) on movies you've seen?

What do you know about the Japanese aggression and forays into China in the thirties? Again, were you interested?

Does this book interest you? Why? Because it is a love story ?

Imagine for a few moments the harsh realities of weather and abysmal poverty of people isolated on the high mountain with its strangely euphemistic name; the mental and spiritual subjugation of millions of people in a vast country; the non-existence of basic freedoms in the nineteen-seventies that we have long taken for granted, including the right to HAVE books, not just the "breviary" of an autocratic ruler, and be allowed to READ them -- instead of being killed for HAVING them in their possession then think of every facet of your life being similarly regimented and dependent on the rules (and whims) of a communal or higher authority for anything and everything you need, never mind WANT THEN look at page 8 of the book.

Don't you marvel that under those dreadful circumstances, in such a benighted state of cultural backwardness, the adolescent Chinese boys knew of Sylvester Stallone, of all people?

Did you notice the mention of one boy as being the fifth son of his father but the only child of his mother?

How much of Mao's "new" teachings had the families actually absorbed?

How much of the traditions lingered?

Did it occur to you that all people, regardless of ethnic origin or provenance, have the same basic need, wants and the same destiny?

Discussion Leader: Traude

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Hello friends, here is the "proposed" for Balzac and the Little Chinese Seamstress, which won the majority of votes.

Please indicate your interest to participate in the discussion here. Thank you.

I would like to read about the Cultural Revolution in China. It is another trip outside of the United States. That alone will make the journey new and exciting. The book is very small too.

Hello HATS, and WELCOME to you. Good to see you.

Other Chinese authors have described the horrors of the Cultural Revolution, most notably, for me, Ha Jin in Waiting , which I recommend.

In our book, the experience is seen through the eyes of two adolescents, neither one an intellectual, but suspect because they are the sons of doctors. The ironic twist to the reeducation is marvelous.

It is so good to know you will be with us. Thank you.

TRAUDE, I have ordered the book, and will hope to be here.

Mal

Traude: I hope to get the book at the Library and will join you in January.

jane

I have read the book for a local Book Discussion and would like to join this one. See you in January.
Callie

Traude, I will definitely be here in January. Looking forward to the reading and discussion.

Hi, Traude, Hats, Mal, Jane, Callie, Pedln. I'm looking forward to this, as I will also be reading it face-2-face with a French woman reading it in the original French and with a woman who is married to a Chinese man and knows a lot about Chinese history.

China is in the news on a related issue, coal mining, today:

The Latest (Reported) Chinese Coal Mining Disaster

There are a number of things about coal mining in China that those unfamiliar may not know. One thing about China not modernizing their coal mining industry, which would up the safety factor quite a bit, is that China has chosen to use labor-intensive technologies for a number of reasons, amongst them: 1. they require more people and keep more people employed, and 2. economies of scale are energy-intensive and China doesn't want to devote energy resources to mechanization in many sectors. This latter may reduce overall the environmental degradation associated with a number of industries by spreading it out, making it smaller, and localizing it where the industry is needed. Their policies are not so straight-forward that one can look and say, oh! if only China used machines instead of humans all would be well.

Nonetheless thousands die each year in China due directly to lack of safety, ancient equipment and techniques and the overlooking of safety protocols.

Kleo

While I was taking advantage this afternoon of the wondrously, atypically mild New England weather- while it lasts, five more readers signed on, after our HATS this a.m., for the January discussion of "Balac and the Little Chinese Seamstress" :

MAL, JANE CALLIE K, PEDLN and KLEO.
A special welcome to all of you, and many thanks for your interest. I could not be more delighted.

We have a quorum and one of our techies will move us to the "upcoming" category on our B&L home page; a proposed reading schedule with questions will be posted in the header in due course.

I look forward to the pleasure of your company in January. Thank you again for your interest.

KLEO, "seamstresses united", indeed - very clever !!

Will this new location remove my groaner, Traude? I really meant to change it in the title before I posted. Other DLs might not have caught it.

Kleo

No, Kleo...your groaner...and I love it...is with us until the real discussion starts if Traude chooses to begin it in a new place.

jane

and I hope you all enjoy discussing it. Unfortuneately, I will be doing another book in this time slot but will check in to see if you like it. Enjoy!!

You will be missed. I hope you peek your head in more than once.

KLEO: I like your groaner. My book has come and I'll be peeking in. I'll be finishing one discussion and getting ready for another, so I won't be too active, but this is the first time my first choice won, so I'd like to read it.

Kleo, I like your groaner too.

Accoring to Netflix, the DVD release date has been update to 12/27/05.

Here's a link to that but its been out for 3 years. Balzac movie

Language is Mandarin but its subtitled in English.

Ann, thanks for the link. It's on my Netflix que, hopefully to arrive sometime in January.

DVD is the only way I get to see foreign films. I think subtitles only exist in large cities.

Oh, my husband just bought my book today. It's going in my Christmas stocking. I can't wait to read it!

On a wintry night like this reading is a solace.
We had the craziest weather in this state where snow already covered the ground in larger or smaller quantities.

Between 12 and 5 an intense snow storm rumbled through Mass. from north to south accompanied by NE winds that reached 72 mph in our fair town. Fourteen point five inches (!) (14.5") of snow fell in four hours up north in Pepperell.

In midafternoon thunder mixed with the snow and a bolt of lightning hit an incoming plane at Logan International. No injuries. The airport was closed. Everything is over now.

Regarding our book, I hope those of you who have it are enjoying it. Happy reading !

Traude, I've been hearing lots about your weather on the news. I hope you can stay inside and be cosy and lazy. We tend to shut down a lot sooner than you folks in the NE, but ice is ice no matter how thick. Yesterday a friend told me that a snow day is "found time," a gift to use as you wish. I hope that's true for you.

I lucked out and found "Balzac and" at the used book store. It looks small enough to slip into my purse and read on the return flight from Seattle after Christmas.

PEDLN, yes, the book is small and a "pocketbook" in every sense of the word. It will easily keep you company during the flight.

Yes, NE winters can have it in them !

I wish you a wonderful time in Seattle.

I'm looking forward to joining this discussion group... my first effort. I've just started reading this book and am eager to take part in the on-line book club. Susan from Canada

I see that our Ambassador Pat has already sent you a welcome note. Just let us know if there is anyway that we can help you out.

Susan, welcome. We're so glad to have you with us.

Hello SUSAN and WELCOME.

We are happy to have you join us. Later this month I plan on suggesting a proposed reading schedule or, given the relative brevity of the book, concentrate on themes and historical data instead.

A map of China and especially of Sechuan province where the story takes place will be provided as well.

Happy reading !

Sichuan is a province in south-central China bordered by mountains and accessible to the rest of China via the large rivers that border the province, including the Yangtze. Sichuan means "4 Rivers" or "Four Streams," I think, and I think Chuan means river, although it is usually transliterated differently nowadays. The old name in English for the province was Szechwan. Mao The four rivers are, I think, the Chang or Yangtze (its name means Long River), the Min, the Jia Ling, and the Tuo or Juo. Due to the flooding these rivers bottom lands are very fertile. This flooding will be stopped when the dams on the Four Gorges are complete--are they complete yet? It is protected from the worst of a continental climate by the tall mountains that border it (the Himalayan Plateau to the west, and related mountains to the south, others to the north), and has two full growing seasons each year. It is, I think, one of, if not the, primary rice growing regions of China--in the west of the province. It is also a mineral rich area. I think it is craton surrounded by large faults, and mineral formations collect along faults, some types at least. It's somewhat studied because of its economic geology. Mt. Emei, one of the four sacred Buddhist mountains of China, and the most famous one, is in Sichuan.

It's a bit tough reading up about the area because much is fragmented, and names are variously transliterated leaving one to try to match the Chinese characters--and not all of the Chinese character fonts are loaded on my computer so some come up as gibberish, and one has overridden a French font I have which now comes up in Chinese caracters. Easier, I suppose, if one read Chinese.

Oh, the Dawn Redwood, or Metasequoia glyptostroboides was first found living in Sichuan--oh, well, no, I think it was in Hubei, but it is found in both Sichuan and Hubei. All of the earlier ones grown in the United States are offspring of seeds brought from China to the United States courtesy of Dr. Chaney at UC Berkeley and another scientist from Harvard who took journeys to China to secure the seeds during extremely dangerous times. Their journeys were particularly perilous due to the political wars going on at the times in China.

Rediscovery of the Metasequoia PDF

Kleo

I think that Chinese geography will be quite a challenge for me.

Kleo

Oh, here's a fun article about the man who collected material for describing the type specimen of Metasequoia which clears up my confusion about the tree being in Sichuan Province. Where the type specimen (the tree upon which the botanical description is based) is located was Sichuan Province when it was found and is today in Hubei Province.

Reminiscences of Collecting the Metasequoia Type Specimen

It is a nice article about that part of the world in the late 40s. I would post a picture of the tree, but I don't have a web page to link it to. It is easy to recognize pictures of the type specimen of Metasequoia because of the shrine built at the base of the tree by villagers before it was 'discovered' by the rest of the world. It is an interesting find because the living specimen was found only a few years after the description of the first fossil specimens (from Japan, the fossils, I believe).

Kleo

There's so little prediscussion about this book, yet I think there will be tons to learn in order to understand it, Maoist China, communism in China, Chinese economics, the peasant population of China, geography plays a role in almost everything Chinese that I have read. French Literature--those in the know already know why the title, but does everyone have that background? I'm reading some background on Chinese history, modern, first, and some on Chinese farming techniques, rice farming in particular. I live in California's Great Central Valley, so I'm rather used to seeing rice farms. What about everyone else? Is there rice farming in the book? Is anyone else preparing for the discussion by learning about China? What have you learned?

At least 13 people voted for this book, not including me. Why did you want to read this one in particular?

Kleo

I am looking forward to learning about China. I hope Kleo and all will freely give us lots and lots of information. Can't wait!

I did it again!! I forgot to subscribe. I wondered why you all were so quiet.

KLEO: your link in post 30 froze my computer. Had to hit the off button to get out. Too bad -- it sounded interesting. Is that redwood the redwood we have in California? How endangered is it?

The book is very short and an easy read. I have to admit, I read it in a few hours. But there is plenty to talk about. I learned a lot about rural (really rural) China, and the Cultural Revolution.

The link in #30 didn't freeze my computer, but it never loaded ---after 15 minutes, I went on to something else.

I will try to remember to remind folks when they are very large PDFs. The link in post 30 is a PDF that has been scanned, rather than key boarded in, so it's like a photograph of the page of a book rather than the text--this makes it a very large file. I found the story interesting and will print it out and mail it to anyone who wants a copy. Please let me know via e-mail.

The Redwood in China is not the same Redwood as we have in California. In California we have two redwood trees, one on the coast called Sequoia sempervirens, or Coast Redwood, that is endemic to the California Floristic Province, extending from at least as far south as Big Sur in California to Southern Oregon along the coast, and one in the mountains called Sequoiadendron giganteum, or Giant Sequoia or Big Tree, that grows exclusively on the western slope of California's Sierra Nevada at just a few locations, from about 2500' in elevation to just below tree line. Both of these populations of trees are the remnants of once much more extensive populations, like the Chinese Redwood.

The Chinese Redwood is Metasequoia glyptostroboides or the Dawn Redwood. Its branches and needles look quite a bit like the Coast Redwood. However, its habit, or overall shape is a bit different, and it is a much shorter tree (hardly any trees the world over are as tall as the Coast Redwood which is the tallest conifer and may be the tallest tree in the world). It is also interesting because it is a decidious conifer. Right now we have a number on the campus and in the Botanical Garden at Berkeley. Most have lost all of their leaves, but one rather shaded one in the Garden is golden orange all over.

All three of these trees are members of the Taxodiaceae or Bald Cypress family. Most members of this family are confined to refugia, or areas that weren't glaciated, or have other climatic factors that distinguish them from nearby areas (the Northern Californian and Oregon coasts have high fog that contributes to moisture, whereas the rest of California is relatively arid). Some exceptions are the bald cypresses found in the SE United States. However, this is not unusual to have trees from the same family growing either in East Asia and the SE US, or along the Pacific Rim and the SE US. Another example are magnolias, native to China (and I don't know where else in Asia) and to the Deep South.

SeniorNet folk who have lived or reside now in the Deep South would be familiar with some interesting members of the Chinese flora that are less familiar to us Westerners.

The Dawn Redwood is rare in China, found only in a few groves within a finite area on the borders of Sichuan and Hubai. It is a popular street tree in the US and all over the world with a number of cultivars available. Many were planted in the Bay Area and in the Cambridge, Mass. area when researchers returned from China with seeds in the late 1940s. The Coast Redwood is also an endangered tree, endangered because it keeps getting logged. A 40-year old Redwood is a baby compared to the Avenue of the Giants trees. The Giant Sequoia is also endangered because of habitat encroachment, although the preserves of it tend to be in National Forest (a couple in Yosemite, for example). However the Big Tree populations will probably have a more difficult time recovering if they are wiped out. There is a town called Lone Pine along 395 east of the Sierra, and I think their 'lone pine' is a Sequoia.

Dawn Redwood

Coast Redwood

Giant Sequoia

Kleo

Yes, Hats, I will post what I can find that's relevant. I have learned some great stuff in on-line book clubs from other folks doing research about a topic. In my on-line book club at Oprah I absolutely depend upon one woman to do some excellent biography--she always hits the points that interest me the most.

Kleo

Hi Kleo, I am looking forward to all the interesting material you will bring. It is very interesting to learn about the Redwoods in China. Thank you for the links.

Thanks, Kleo. That was very interesting. And what beautiful trees.

I have the book and have started reading.

WELCOME, JOAN K. ! It's good to have you, I'm looking forward to your input.

KLEO, thank you for your posts and links. Sadly, I cannot access any pdf reference. Our Parish newsletters now come in that format and my computer guru, the editor and uploader of it, was sure she could get my Acrobat Reader to work, stayed until her time ran out -- but will return.

KLEO, pre-discussions can be shorter or longer, depending on the complexity of a book and at the discretion of the DL. "Balzac ..." is an easy read and much less complicated (and much shorter) than WAITING by Ha Jin, for example. Right now I am laboring in pain to finish what still needs to be done in the next two days. Please understand.

Traude--

Sorry to hear you can't access PDFs, as they are certainly an easy printing format these days. I will remember that with future posts. For everyone, though, you can usually print PDFs at your local library for about 10 cents a page, remember to pick black and white printer, though. My library will simply access and send them to the printer for me at the reference desk. You can also print them at Fed Ex/Kinkos, where they are also nice enough to simply take the link from you (on disk best, but you can write it down if you can't do disk) and print it for a dime a page.

Traude, I know that things can be different from other things. However, I am disappointed that this book won the vote yet seems to be attracting so little interest compared to other books. I like the idea of reading around the world, but I don't think it's being actualized in an exciting and enticing way if people are voting for books they don't show any interest in discussing.

I think the prediscussion would be a sign of participant interest in the topic, maybe a sign of the depth of the topic, the necessity of preparation, not necessarily a matter of what the DL does. Maybe the 2nd will roll around and a romping discussion will materialize from those who voted for this book.

Kleo

KLEO, I cannot possibly speak for those who voted in favor of this nomination. They did so, I presume, on the basis of the information given here at the time. So this is the book chosen for the discussion and it will begin as scheduled.

It is a short book of under 200 pages, a book that - at least in my opinion - does NOT lend itself to being divided into equal segments of about 50 pages per week. What a reader wants to do in this case, I believe, is read it all to see what happens.

Some books are tomes and NEED a long pre-discussion because there is a great deal of material to be digested beforehand. That is not the case here. Still I am confident that the people who voted for the book will respond when we actually begin.
I volunteered to take on the discussion because I had read the book and participated in a discussion as member of our local book group.

Don't forget, we've been through weeks of preparation for the special Christmas, Chanukah and Kwanzaa festivals and have enjoyed visits from family members we do not see except on these occasions. That is true for me : I see my California daughter only once a year and make the most of this occasion. I would love to visit her as I have before, but I'm afraid my globe-trotting days are over.

KLEO, I am not responsible for the scheduling of discussions in RATW in general, and "Balzac ..." in particular, nor able to address your dissatisfaction with the status quo. You have been helpful in providing background on the flora and fauna of China, and I have expressed my gratitude.

To prepare us for the discussion I suggest thinking of the theme the author may have had in mind,
of trying to recall when China first came to your personal attention - was it President Nixon's bold initiative?
How much did we know about China before that time?
What did we think when the mysterious "window to the east" was opened ?
Were you inspired to research Chairman Mao and his little Red Book (mentioned in our book too) ?
Do you know of, and were you ever interested in the Chinese dynasties, the manufacture of silk, the Silk Road ?
Is our knowledge of China based solely (or mainly) on movies you've seen ?
What do you know about the Japanese aggression and forays into China in the thirties ? Again, were you interested ?
Does this book interest you ?
Why ?
Because it is a love story ?
Imagine for a few moments the harsh realities of weather and abysmal poverty of people isolated on the high mountain with its strangely euphemistic name; the mental and spiritual subjugation of millions of people in a vast cuntry; the non-existence of basic freedoms in the nineteen-seventies (!) that we have long taken for granted, including the right to HAVE books, not just the "breviary" of an autocratic ruler, and be allowed to READ them - instead of being killed for HAVING them in their possession,
then think of every facet of your life being similarly regimented and dependent on the rules (and whims) of a communal or higher authority for anyhing and everything you need, never mind WANT
THEN look at page 8 of the book.
Don't you marvel that under those dreadful circumstances, in such a abenighed state of cultural backwardness, the adolescent Chinese boys knew of Sylvester Stallone, of all people ?
Did you notice the mention of one boy as being the fifth son of his father but the only child of his mother ?
How much of Mao's "new" teachings had the families actually absorbed ?
How much of the traditions lingered ?
Did it occur to you that all people, regardless of ethnic origin or provenance, have the same basic needs, wants and the samae destiny ?

Please consider these thoughts.

"Still I am confident that the people who voted for the book will respond when we actually begin. " Traude

I don't know, but I'm certainly hoping so. It is a nice little book, not perfect, but worthy of discussion. I read it today, and answered my own biggest "dissatisfaction with the status quo:" reading 3 books in a row from Mediterranean countries translated from Romance languages with sub adults and their passions for reading. And that really was my issue: everyone is voting left and right to read books about kids reading books from countries in a very small part of the world we'll never read around if we don't get out of Western Europe. So, I'm relieved, and I hope you're right that those who wanted to read this one will be here to discuss it on the 2nd.

Kleo

I voted for the book: got it, and read it in one session. Having read it makes it awkward to "pre-discuss" -- so I'm glad Truede posed those questions.

When did I first start thinking about China? Impossible to answer, since I've never thought about China a lot. In college, I had a Chinese friend who lived in the Chinese embassy (before Mao) and used to invite us there for parties. I don't know what happened to him or the embassy. Many years later, when I returned to graduate school, I had a Marxist professor for a class who tried to convince us that life was absolutely wonderful under Mao. Even I wasn't stupid enough to believe him.

In 2000, I gave myself a project to read the books that were on the NY Public Library list as the most influential of the last century. One was the Little Red Book. I couldn't find a copy anywhere, and I got some mighty peculiar looks when asking. I gave it up.

I have read "Waiting". I found it interesting, but depressing. it is what a friend calls an "outside" book. It relays what the protagonist experiences and does, even sometimes thinks, but from a distance like a marionette on a stage. You never really get inside him.

I will try to participate, as time permits, Traude, as I've already read the book.

Kleo ~
I didn't vote at all in this latest round, as I was still without my internet connection at that time
(Wilma in FL = old news), but I ought to put in my so-called two cents. I do agree, the pre-discussion was mostly your ball game. China is such an overwhelming subject, I hardly knew what to bring in.

JoanK ~ I allocated my reading to make the book take two sessions, although reading it all in one gulp was tempting. I've already seen the movie version, so I didn't feel like zooming toward the ending.

The movie is not worth rushing out to rent, IMO.

I've read many, many books about China, notably:
Tracing it Home, a Chinese Journey, by Lynn Pan (paperback, 1992),
Wild Swans, an autobiographical memoir by Jung Chang, and
have just begun her new biography:
Mao, the Unknown Story, by Chang & Halliday (Knopf, 2005, 814 pp),
which my husband had read already; he un-recommended it because of the vividness of the
horrid purges, but I'm making an attempt.

This is my first time in reading a book for discussion. I have purchased it and if time permits, hope to read it and join in the discussions. I visited Beijing, Canton and Hong Kong in Dec. 1996 and Jan. 1997, just before Hong Kong was being turned over to China. I remember asking the guide about what pictures I could and couldn't take with my camcorder. He said he would let me know. At one place, there were several people in drab uniforms, just dragging dirt around with rakes in a very small space, seeming accomplishing nothing,which caught my eye. It was outside the entrance to some sight seeing place we were visiting near Beijing. I couldn't imagine what they were doing or accomplishing so I put my camcorder on their activities and aimed away. Our up-to-that-time very friendly tour guide snapped in my ear "turn it off". I immediately did so wondering what in the world I had filmed, if I had caught it on tape and was I in trouble. I exited China with no problems, thank heavens. When I got home and looked at the tape, I indeed did have the incident. However, I still don't know what I have other than possibly convicts keeping busy doing nothing! I was allowed to film soldiers which I thought I wouldn't have that permission so that was a thorough puzzle!

As far as being at the whim of a higher authority, in Morocco even though I was traveling with a bus group, every night at the hotel, we had to fill out a form. It contained all our passport info and was fairly lengthy. Since we were with a self-contained unit I felt imposed upon.

In Vietnam, when we got off the cruise ship, there was a card table set up by the Vietnamese authorities, who took our Visas and then at the end of the day handed them back to us. The third day, the end of our stay, they took them and did not return back to us.

It is true people in other countries have had to live a very difficult life under very hard circumstances.

Joan--

No Little Red Book? It used to be more common in used book stores, but it may just be Berkeley used book stores....

Mippy--

I do find China to be an overwhelming subject. Even the geography, the various transliterations alone make it daunting. The geopolitical boundaries have changed since the book was written. I know very little about China or Mao or the Red Guards or the Cultural Revolution or the Gang of Four or the Great Leap Forward or the Long March. Some of it I can put into context for this book, but not everything. The author is a bit time-line challenged, also, which does not help. Probably others are much more familiar with China than with Afghanistan.

I've heard the scenery in the movie is lush and worth watching alone. Let me know how the new bio turns out.

Alina--

Thanks for the interesting stories.

Kleo

WELCOME, MICASA, I'm so glad you decided to join us ! We greatly appreciate your contribution of your experiences and impressions during your visits to Hong Kong. Such personal experiences are valuable indeed.

KLEO, let me repeat that the length of a pre-dicussion period is determined by the Discussion Leader: some prefer four weeks or more before the actual date, some (like me) prefer shorter warm-ups, and one of us gets to the subject on the scheduled day, not a day sooner .
There is no pre-set stringent rule that governs the procedure; rather, it is the initiative of the DL that counts. There are times when "one size does NOT fit all."

Many books presuppose a general knowledge of events referred to in a book and, based on that assumption, describe no details of prior history. That is true in our book where the reader is plunged in medias res (into the middle of things) without preparation.

I will outline the salient facts of Mao's reign and the Cultural Revolution- briefly, so that we gain a better understanding of the situation in which Luo and the Narrator find themselves when the story begins.

Alina, what fascinating travels you have had. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences with us, and welcome to your first book discussion. I'm glad you can join us.

Traude, thanks for posing the discussion questions. I have printed them out and will have them beside me as I read. (I haven't had a chance to read the book yet, being immersed in The Name of the Rose for a local discussion this coming week, but look forward to taking a few nights off for Balzac).

Kleo, I think understanding any country well would be a daunting task (right now trying to understand the different orders and philosophies of medieval monks -- a small segment of European history -- is proving daunting for me, in my current reading.) Fully understanding a country with as long and complex a history as China is probably not on many of our agendas. But reading and discussing and sharing the knowledge we collectively have cannot but help increase our own individual understandings. And that is what I hope for and expect from this upcoming discussion.

Traude-- I have not said one word until now about the length of time devoted to the prediscussion. Didn't and don't have any other comments about it.

Pdlen-- I learned a lot about other countries in the prediscussions. Nothing about this book enticed me, except for that, reading it with the interesting medley of background knowledge provided by other SeniorNet readers.

Is it really so awful to have wished for the same thing about China?

Be certain I'll quench any raw enthusiasm that should pop up before future reads.

Kleo

ALINA: WELCOME WELCOME. Now that you've discovered us, I hope you'll find other discussions that are interesting to you. New discussions start almost every month.

How interesting your experiences were! It does sound as if you saw some convicts, or people that were being punished for something. A friend who visited China also said she felt oppressed by the close supervision.

On a more superficial level, she was also bothered by the amount of cigarette smoke. She said everyone smoked, and she couldn't get away from it. Apparently, American cigarette companies are making up for declining smoking here by really pushing cigarettes abroad.

The third thing she mentioned was how spoiled the children often were. In a society where you are only "allowed" one child, that child becomes the center of the family, and it was obvious even on the streets: lavishly dressed children with poorly dressed parents.

That's interesting about the smoking Joan. I often hear those returning from Europe talk about the heavy smoking, but I didn't realize it existed in China also. I think many U.S. companies are looking at China as the next great market. Starbucks coffee is really pushing to grow there. I was in Starbucksland (Seattle) over the holidays and the local newspaper quoted a Starbucks exec saying "If my children were younger I would certainly push their learning Chinese."

Concerning the children, can you imagine the dilemma of new parents when their first-born is a girl? And they were hoping for a boy? How terribly terribly sad to have so much of your personal freedoms dictated by the government.

Yes, the Chinese smoke like chimneys. At Berkeley we had a lot of international students, including many Chinese. More of the foreign students smoke than the American students, by a long shot, but amongst the Chinese you can pick them out not by their clothes or the way they carry themselves, but simply by what they carry in their fingers or mouth, a lit cigarette. Blech.

The new conundrum in China, JoanK, is that these children who are the center of their parents universe are now living a thousand miles away in cement cities fueling China's new industrial/electronic revolution. It's certainly changed the sex-ratio in modern China, pedln.

Kleo

It certainly behooves us to learn as much as we can about China and this immense country's importance on the world scene and its role as a creditor of this country, in particular.

The sheer number of people and the population density in industrial cities are staggering by anyone's imagination, even though vast pockets of poverty doubtless still exist in isolated rural areas, untouched by the progress of the last few years.

As for the one-child-only policy, I believe it is impossible to gauge or fully understand it from a Western perspective. If this is their crude, cruel, perhaps most effective tool to lower the birth rate, who are we to judge ?

Re smoking : the boys in our story searched for and smoked cigarette butts. Since they are called "fag" ends, we can assume that Ina Rilke, the translator of the short novel, was English.

(Western Europe similarly is nowhere near our bans of smoking in public places.)

Sorry, but I think we should judge the one-child only dictate. There are other ways to limit population. Education, for one. Rewards, for another. Forcing parents to give up their children is horrible and cruel.

Traude-- I think Rilke is a rather famous Dutch translator, not English. I tried to look this up but could not find a direct link to her biography or any information about her--so there is reason for you to guess. However, I work with translators and she's considered a modern goddess of the literary genre for translators. I hope I'm not mistaking her for someone else, and I'm thoroughly ashamed I did not even look at the translator's name while reading this novel!

Even other states are nowhere near California's bans on smoking. I don't even bother going to restaurants in most other states because they reek of cigarette smoke. I don't see how nonsmokers in Oregon and Louisiana, all over the US can stand to their food, especially fine and delicate food, around that stench.

Pedln--Amen to your first sentence, but your last is the only humane aspect of the policy. We even discuss this with our PRC book club participant. The Chinese judge it even harsher than we do, when it impacts their lives directly.

Kleo

KLEO, whether Ina Rilke is English or Dutch, it is undisputed that the word "fag" for "cigarette" is used in England and some parts of the former British Empire.
Many European translators also use the English spelling of words like "honor, glamor", etc. And many of them speak more than their own native tongue.

Your limitless research facilities may enable you to find out whether Ina Rilke was a descendant of the noted poet Rainer (=René) Maria Rilke, 1875-1926. He was born in Prague.

Traude -- I did not dispute that 'fag' "is used in England and some parts of the former British Empire." But, yes, it does make the translation sound British, not American English. In my opinion 'gaol' is a bigger give-away than 'fag' for cigarette, because in the 70s it was popular teenage slang in America to use the term 'fag' for cigarettes (not just butts), and 'gaol' is quintessentially British.

My interest was in the translator, because of her reputation. As for European translators, in literature British English may be more common, but in the sciences many that I have seen use American English spellings, (most Swiss use British spellings). Translations into English are market driven, simply whether the book is to be released in Britian first or America, and top notch translators can manoeuver between the two dialects with ease and responsibility.

I did try to check whether she was any relation to Rainer Maria Rilke, (why not?) as I thought that might have more biographical information on her. I may have blown it checking the biography of the poet, though. I know he was born in Prague, like Kafka, but I always think of him as Austrian. Sigh.

I think there are a lot of SeniorNetters who top me in the Internet research department, and I hope one of them will tackle this and get a brief bio of the translator up.

Kleo

KLEO, it would be interesting to learn more about Ina Rilke. The translations by her that I have seen are all excellent.

I've recently read Thomas Mann's last novella "Die Betrogene" in the original German as well as its English version. The English translation is awkward and in a few places annoyingly inaccurate. The English title "The Black Swan" has scant bearing on the story itself.
Small wonder the book had a very cool reception in this country, though Mann's widow, Katja Mann, felt compelled to vigorously defend it and refute the critics.

I feel like the turtle behind all the hares. All of you are such fast readers. I am only on page 52. It is a small book. I am finding almost every page fascinating. I suppose this is because of my lack of knowlege about China. Just hearing the words "Cultural Revolution" rather than reading about that time is very different.

What a sad time in Chinese history. Young people taken away from their homes and family to do such dreary, hard, dangerous work. Not to mention the fact that literature, not about Mao and his gang, had to disappear totally.

Control of the thought processes is worse than frightening. Could you say that this is Orwell's 1984 come true? Anyway, the book has whet my appetite to know more about China today.

Alina, I really read with interest about your visit to China. Thank you for sharing.

I remember a long time ago looking at a Sixty Minutes program about China. The show was about families being afraid to have more than one child. I also remember a little bit about Nixon's visit to China. My memory does not remember overly much.

I am going to try and get this book from the library though I feel way behind most of you here before I even read the book. Traude, I know, is an expert in languages and has lived in other countries. I was born and raised in the midwest, lived all my life here and the only other countries I have been to are Canada and Mexico.

I remember that in the seventies, one of my kids had a woman named Connie Swiers as a student teacher. Connie and her husband, Dell were world champion table tennis players and were among the first of those who went to China when Nixon was President. They played the Chinese and beat them at their own game. Table Tennis was a very popular sport over there. Of course it made the headlines here as they are local people. They were warmly welcomed in China, but saw only what the Chinese wanted them to see.

Also a friend of mine who does volunteer work with me, went over there last summer to visit his daughter who teaches English at the University in Beijing. He was astoned at how many people live crowded into such small areas, but he was impressed with the way they treat their old people. He told me there are no homes for old people. The aged are revered and cared for by the families.

I took French in high school and later some Spanish, but that is the extent of my foreign languages. I have a sweatshirt I bought in Quebec with a picture of wolves on the front and it says: "Au printemps de la vie, affirmer son courage et su determination..." I know how to translate it word for word and I get the meaning but I cannot figure out how to smoothly say it in English. I would imagine that being a good translator is very difficult and even more so from a language like Chinese.

Denjer--

The book is translated from the French, as the author lives in France and writes it in French, not Chinese. Chinese and English are two of the most difficult languages in the world. I think it would be quite an accomplishment to translate well between the two. French and English may have some words in common, but they are different enough from each other in their grammatical constructs and vocabulary size to allow for quite some variety in translations. Look at a couple of different translations of Hugo's Les Misérables sometime to appreciate this. Seamstress, in English, has a light touch and a foreign voice of a man who lives in France but was born in China.

Kleo

Thanks for bringing attention to the translation: I found the prose excellent.

The book really brought the lives of those remote village people alive for me. That was the interest of the book for me: I did not find the seamstress as well drawn as the other characters.

Happpy New Year !
Welcome to those of you who are here today, a day early!!

I'd like to begin by warmly thanking PAT, the techie who put my random thoughts in the header. The multi-talented people who are present at the creation of a discussion folder - and throughout for updates - deserve immense credit. Without them our discussions would not be the same.

DENJER, WELCOME, great to see you here, I'm so glad you joined us.

Re translation :
JOAN K., yes. When a book that has been translated from another language reads smoothly in English, the translator deserves credit. Not all translators do a good job, though, by any means.

Translating is a serious, intricate task that requires thorough knowledge not only of the foreign author's language, including peculiar idiomatic phrases, but obviously very much also of the translator's own language; and it demands a feeling for both. Translating is an art but, as in every other field, not everyone becomes a master.

Ina Rilke translated "Balzac" from the French. I assume the author himself wrote the book in French; after all, France has been his adoptive home since 1984.

KLEO, I am not looking for a debate about the relative difficulty of languages, foreign and otherwise, but I have a personal observation or two on the subject.

My field is philology = languages and linguistics. I am a graduate translator and interpreter in seven languages with absolute proficiency in ORAL communication (that's the interpreting part) and in WRITING (i.e. documents, the translating part of the job).

I have been trying for years to get across the point that the terms "translator" and "interpreter" are NOT synomynous, but I despair I'll ever be heard.

English is not my native tongue, but it was wonderfully easy and a pleasure, easier than French, which demands a great deal more precision in grammatical matters. Russian was the most difficult, mainly because of the Cyrillic alphabet. Latin proved an invaluable foundation that cannot be praised highly enough. (Errorneous quotations of Latin words on the net are a physical pain for me.)

Chinese and Japanese are difficult for Westerners because of the script, and Hebrew presents similar challenges. In summation, KLEO, speaking as one who was introduced to English at age 16, I hold that is not one of the most difficult languages to learn.

Thank you for yor indulgence. Those who know me also know that I can become quite passionate when talking about words (and their implications) in any language.

Ah, Traude, I don't know any Germans who have suffered trying to learn English. In fact, Germans even master the English articles with ease as German uses a definite article--something you and I discussed once before.

I have personal observations on the subject, too, but I was just speaking about studies which rank languages by the difficulty of non-native speakers acquiring them, not my observations--Arabic, Chinese, English are all very difficult languages, compared to Russian, compared to Romance Languages. I suspect that Cantonese is a much more difficult language than Mandarin, but not because of any differences in script.

There's nothing to argue, I am simply discussing linguistic studies in the vaguest terms, not what languages you learned with ease or struggled with or not on whatever terms.

Latin is a wonderful language to study, and certainly makes Slavic grammar a stroll through the park, especially Polish grammar.

The book is listed as "translated from the French," not from the Chinese.

The interpreter/translator thing drives me insane, also. Interpretation is simply the oral rendering of one language to another, while translation is the written, I tell people until I am blue in the face, to no avail. I gave up on a number of years ago.

Kleo

I promised myself I wouldn't join another book discussion till March 1st, my spring break from Latin...but reading about this book this morning was a serendipitous event for me!

This morning on Meet the Press, Tim Russert asked his panel which one book will they be reading in 2006 and Eugene Robinson said, "Mao, the Unknown Story."

I feel that the ideas in both books may dovetail or at least present more than one side of the China story so would like to read them together.

I may not have a lot of time to post, but I will be coming to read all of your posts every day.

If that's ok, then I'll subscribe.

Thanks, Alliemae

ALLIEMAE, WELCOME ! Of course you are welcome to join under the conditions you mention! And of course you are not obligated to post if there are time constraints; but when you read the posts, you may want to participate.

Thank you for the mention of the latest (Oct 2005) Mao biography, "Mao, The Untold Story", by Jung Chung and Jon Halliday. It is gratifying when something we discuss here spawns wider interest in the topic, in this case Chairman Mao.

He ruled for twenty-five years over a billion Chinese and is responsible for the death, in peacetime!!, of 70 million of them. His ruthlessness was well known, but millions regarded him as god-like.

The Cultural Revolution was his handiwork, it was nothing less than the total transformation of Chinese society through the Cultural Proletariat Revolution. It is not easy to outline in a few sentences, but I am geering up for it.

Yes, KLEO, "Balzac ..." was published in French in 2000 and a huge bestseller.
It is my assumption that Dai Sijie himself wrote it in French, rather than in Chinese, because by then he had been in France for sixteen years and mastered the language.

(Andrei Makine deserves brief mention here. He fled Russia, came to France, also in the eighties, and wrote "Dreams of My Russian Summers" in French. The publishers did not believe him at first when he said he was the author. He has written several other books since, all about Russia, still.)

Re: "by Jung Chung and Jon Halliday..."

Traude, thanks for the welcome and thanks also for the authors names. The show was going so fast I was unable to catch more than the title!

Alliemae

After a night of thunderstorms here...very unusual in January...I will start with a couple opinions on the questions to ponder in the heading.

#4: No, I was not motivated to do any research into Mao or his Little Red Book. There was much about that in the papers and newsbroadcasts and articles back during his "reign" and the "Gang of Four" and the "Cultural Revolution." My personal bias is that one should not have to do a great deal of "research" to understand a novel. If one does, then I feel the author has done an extremely poor job of writing. I can understand that one might find topics of personal interest to explore further, but if one has to do outside research to understand the novel, then the author has failed me.

#5-6:Many years ago, my World Civilization college class studied China and the Eastern countries. I've not, however, had any burning desire to read further, though I read and participated in Waiting with others here at SN.

jane

ALLIEMAE, with an apology for my typo let me clarify that the name of the co-author of "Mao, The Untold Story" is Jung ChAng, not Chung.
Briefly, Chang and Halliday are a husband-wife team. Chang authored the award-winning "Wild Swans: Three Daughters of China" in 2003. Born in China in 1952, she was a Red Guard and left for Britain in 1978. She was the first Chinese to receive a docorate from a British university.

WELCOME, JANE, thank you for posting. Your input is much appreciated.

To repeat and clarify what I said earlier, it is always gratifying when any book we discuss here spawns interest in wider exploration into the respective topic - at a future time, elsewhere, as a private endeavor, or in a new discussion.

Let me make clear therefore that it is not my intention to hold forth about Chinese history (which would be impossible), though I will talk about the Cultural Revolution, but only to the extent necessary for understanding this book and the predicament of the adolescents in this book.

We are going to explore the book together, and it remains to be seen whether, how and if it affects us. Some may like it, some may not. However, that is true for any literary endeavor and, what's more, it is a reader's prerogative.
This then is the course of action and I wll proceed along those lines.

Traude asks where we have gained our knowledge of CHina? My earliest memories go back to a book read to us in kindergarten -- Little Pear, a small boy who lived with his family on a boat in CHina. It must have made an impression because I sought it to read to my own children. Also, in elementary school our teacher would talk alot about Madame Chiang Kai Shek. This was during the days of WW II, and as I think back, it must have been when she came to the US trying to raise funds for her husband's fight against the Japanese.

I've never been a China scholar or particularly interested in reading the literature or seeing movies about the country, although I enjoyed Betty Bao Lord's novel Spring Moon, based on the life of her grandmother.

Several years ago I came across a short story about a young CHinese woman living in CHina during the Cultural Revolution. She was a pianist, but had been denied a piano and Western music. She came across an abandoned mutilated piano in a garbage dump, and immediately began to play the music she had studied. The piano made no sound, but she heard it all in her heart. Unfortunately, she was caught and punished.

Because of that story, I was surprised that our young narrator was allowed to keep his violin.

I don't think I understand the first question:

Do you think the theme the author may have had in mind was trying to recall when China first came to your personal attention or was it President Nixon's bold initiative?

Are you asking if I think the book's theme is trying to recall when China first came to mind? I don't think this is the book's theme at all. Or if I think it is about "Nixon's bold initiative?" I don't think this is the theme, either.

Or are you asking when China first came to my mind? My grandfather was Mongolian/Russian, and raised his children eating Chinese food and studying a bit of Chinese culture, so China has always been in my personal sphere of attention. I read a translation of a famous 14th or 13th century Chinese work for a research paper in 7th grade, 3 volumes of tiny print on thin pages.

We never went to restaurants when we were children except for Chinese food--we ate Chinese food at home, also, the only thing I learned to cook as a child: Chinese. When I was in 7th grade I went to my first non-Chinese restaurant, a French restaurant in downtown Seattle. I wrote an essay about this in college as my first restaurant experience. Almost everyone else in class wrote about going to Chinese restaurants as much younger children and trying to use chopsticks.

I grew up on the west coast so we have a fairly healthy Asian American and Asian immigrant population in all the cities I have lived in.

It's not so much that the book requires or inspires me to learn more about these topics, Jane. And I agree that if a novel actually requires background to understand it, it has generally failed. However, this is the reason I am wanting to read around the world, to find out more about those cultures, in addition to finding out that other folks in other lands have the same passions as all humans. There are, however, many novels that one appreciates better knowing the history. An example is Tolstoy's War and Peace. I read it as a young teenager (required reading in junior high for children or grandchildren of Russian immigrants) and enjoyed it immensely. I read it as an adult after studying the Napoleonic Wars and saw that it was quite simply the best romp through a war ever written. Without the background I missed how brilliant the novel was. On the other hand, I didn't miss how enjoyable it was.

Kleo

Oh, I don't think it's a love story at all.

Kleo

#8: The book was interesting, but I, too, don't see this as a "love story."

jane

Happy New Year, everyone!

Well, I began our Balzac last night and have finished Part I. For awhile I felt it was so very sad that I was not sure I would be able to finish. To think of what the intellectual families went through (and others given labels and punished.) And in the 1970's, at that.

The picture of Luo's dentist father kneeling in the sports field with a cement collar weighing him down on his hands and knees as he was tortured and ridiculed in front of a crowd including his own family - heartbreaking - and for stating that he fixed Mao's teeth.

There were some things about this book that reminded me of The Kite Runner. The forced changes to a highly developed culture, the civil war, people turning each other in to the authorities, the public humiliations, the nation becoming backwards. The author's (or the translator's?) language, too, telling the story so simply, but with every sentence saying so much, presenting such a vivid and moving picture.

The story makes me think of Orwell's Animal Farm.

I have read next to nothing about anything Chinese. I guess the first of anything about Chinese was the children's story Ping! I read The Good Earth. Recently, I read 1421 based on a recommendation from someone in the Non-fiction discussion group. What an interesting book. It takes place in the early Ming dynasty when Chinese culture was flourishing and extending outwards as the Chinese sought the world, trading and exploring on a worldwide scale. Their armada was the greatest fleet in the world.

I wonder what it was about the Chinese that, periodically, it seems they turned inward and, perhaps, backward, as happened during the Ming period?

Marni

To me the book is about horrible oppression. I also could not stop thinking of China's topograpy. The mountains with sheer drops and narrow walking paths seem so dangerous. If much of China is filled with such high mountain ranges would this not cause another obstacle for the Chinese people at that time? I suppose China was not interacting with many other countries in order to receive foodstuffs and other supplies during the Cultural Revolution.

Just to review, Traude, I mentioned those same two books above, in post #45, and suggested them for background reading.
Wild Swans by Jung Chang was enjoyable; I cannot locate my copy, so cannot recall the length, but it is on Amazon, etc. and may be worth reading.

However, the book Mao by Jung Chang and Jon Halliday, has turned out to be a difficult volume
for me, as the details are laid on pretty fast and thick! And its over 800 pages.
So I'm not suggesting that others buy it, unless you enjoy collecting books to read over a longer period of time, as I do.

Re: the #1 thought to ponder:
I would also love to omit the Nixon connection from this discussion, unless American political topics are what this group wants to talk about. There is a great deal of controversy about what Mao had in mind when he sat down with Nixon and Kissinger (ref: Mao, above).

So, Mippy, is the Mao volume worth reading, though? I've found that lately history volumes tend to assume far more background than I have or an absolute nothing in background--aren't authors writing books for the bulk of us anymore, those who know something, and are willing to fill in a few details, to get a current and robust history on a topic?

POSSIBLE SPOILER -- DON'T READ IF YOU'RE NOT FINISHED

Too many details too fast often speak of too little editing in my opinion. Like the cover of this book, most books, with the red shoes, why not pink or white shoes? Why don't the covers match the text? Why aren't the details better developed?

Kleo

Is the Mao biography worth reading?
Yes, if you have the energy for so much detail!
I'm too busy with Latin this month to get through it;
however, it's working as a great reference book, using the index.
Kleo ~
Do the red shoes symbolize the Little Red book? Just a suggestion.

KLEO, we have just begun the discussion, and I for one think it is a bit early to label this book a "failure" right off the bat.
Each of us has the perfect right to say that we either like a book or do not. But, for better or for worse, we have to read what is THERE, not what we think should be in it.

As for the shoes on the book cover, I think red is a fitting color with which Communists have been identified for years and years. Red also shows better against the dark background.
But since when have we been preocupied about book covers ?

The questions in the header are talking points only; every participant is encouraged to contribute her/his thoughts. This is a collective effort, after all.

Re my question 8: Michael Dirda, one of the leading lights of The Washington Post Book World, said

".... Balzac and the Little Chinese Seamstress is basically a romance ..." (see back cover)

KLEO, I take exception to your "spoiler" in # 78 because it is detrimental to the discussion IMHO.
Your question as to why the details were not "better developed" is unanswerable.

You made your disappointment and disapproval of this book, and its choice, abundantly clear. Unfortunately I am unable to address your complaints. My job is to lead this discussion, and we are entitled to gather in an atmosphere of mutual respect, harmony and regard for each other without unnecessary tension.

Marnie said "with every sentence saying so much, presenting such a vivid and moving picture." I agree. I have just begun Part III, and so far I have seen the book as a series of little vignettes, some that stand alone, and some that connect to other stories.

Is story-telling, such as that done by Luo in telling the movies, a part of the Chinese culture, perhaps in mainly the rural areas? I seem to remember other Chinese scenes where the story-teller is highly esteemed. Was that in the movie, "The Inn of Sixth Happiness?"

Last night I went to Netflix to add a film about the Soong Sisters to my movie que. So when I went again to the Netflix site just now, there was a whole page of recommendations of Chinese films. Have any of you seen "To Live" or "The Blue Kite," 1994 and 1993 films (by Chinese filmakers) about life during the Cultural Revolution?

I guess I assumed the little red shoes on the cover of my paperback were the "typical" red (which I associate with China) and those little silk/brocade/rayon/whatever the fabric that I see in import stores.

It's my understanding that the cover art often is done without the author's input or "approval"...and, with some covers I've seen, sometimes I wonder if the illustrator/artist has even read the book.

jane

I was wondering about the red shoes on the cover. I have only read Part I, so may be missing something. But the narrator carefully described the pink shoes of the little seamstress. So I was wondering if something will happen to change her shoes to red.

Regarding storytelling as a part of Chinese culture....I have no idea. But it seems that oral storytelling would be an important part of any more primitive culture where the people would not have access to more advanced means of communications such as books and films. The people in the mountainous areas in our book are, of course, not allowed to read most books and don't seem to have much freedom to go to the movies, which are apparently propaganda. I would imagine anyone in that situation would drink in oral storytelling, especially if the narrator were a naturally talented actor like Luo.

Marni

When I decided to read this book with the group I was unaware that it was discussed before the session started. I was interested because my son, whose first family had left the nest, traveled to China and brought home a wife and a little girl whom he adopted.

The story takes place about the time my daughter-in-law was just born or just a little girl so things changed a lot before she came to the USA.

Our diet and resulting overweight people is often a subject she addresses. She seems to have had a very pleasant life in China, but she was a widow and said the Chinese men are not very desirable, and also she wanted a better life for her daughter so she was willing to marry a man she did not know. My son caters to her every wish so she is a very spoiled woman.

This sounds as if I am against the marriage. Actually, I like her very much and my son seems happier than I have seen him for years. He adores the little girl who is now in 7th grade and a thoroughly American girl.

Back to the book, I enjoyed reading it and am sure the conditions recorded are fairly factual. I know the Chinese relatives of my daughter-in-law have much freedom and a better life than that portrayed.

Well, Traude, I don't think the book is a failure, and I searched my last few posts to see where I used this word, and I don't. Maybe you could give me a hint and post what you are talking about?

I have not said I am disappointed in the book, either. I liked the book, I liked the translation. Could I actually just post my thoughts when the time comes?

Traude, please use quotes from my posts, as I don't think you are talking about my posts. If you quote, you won't find your quotes, and this will prevent this in the future.

Kleo

Well, duh-uh, Mippy, are you ever probably right about the red shoes. Thanks.

Jane, I'm pretty sure the illustrator has not read the book in many--I see you've thought about it also, as have others.

Another thing about discussing books on-line is that sometimes a little detail clicks, or a little miss in a detail, as with the cover shoes, and others all over have thought of it also--in different ways. Thanks for the posts.

Kleo

Evelyn--

What did you think of the opening scene about the violin? Do you think this is reality? "Still no clues," as to what it is. Is this likely that even in a remote Chinese village folks would not recognize a stringed instrument?

I agree about the oral traditions, that when folks have no other means of communicating good stories or bad, written word, television, plays, the oral tradition fills a void. Good story tellers are greatly appreciated under such circumstances. I went to my local library a couple of years ago and saw a crowd of adults around the children's section. When I joined them I saw a woman sitting on the floor telling a story to a small group of children and a much larger group of adults. I don't remember the story, just the enchanting rhythm of her words and use of hands. She was a story teller from South Africa.

The Sylvester Stallone comment in the book struck a false chord. The boys are re-educated beginning in 1971--they didn't know of Stallone in that year or before when they were doodling on "the covers of [their] textbooks." His first credited role is The Lord's of Flatbush, 1974, not Rocky, 1976. The comment snapped me out of the early 70s worldwide to a different place.

Kleo

KLEO: good catch on Sylvester Stallone.

I wonder how many of those villagers could read. Chinese writing used a symbol to write a word. I don't know if they have an alternative alphabetic system as the Japanese do. If not, learning to read would be a much longer harder process than in Western languages.

In fact, I wonder if Mao could read. Does anyone know?

JoanK, that's a good question about Mao. I would like to know whether Mao could read. I have a feeling maybe he could read. Realizing what the people could learn and feel by reading might have led him to make up his mind to keep the Chinese people in darkness and ignorance.

Wow, JoanK, you amaze me the things you think of, that never even crossed my mind. What an obvious question! It's something I don't know anything about, Mao's literacy level, but it seems like something I should have questioned from day 1. Yes, he graduated from a Normal School, which I suppose is like American Normal's schools, academies for training teachers, a quick run to Wikipedia tells me.

I agree with Hats that it seems like someone would have to know the power of reading to know its true danger. On the other hand, someone who could not read would be very afraid of those who could.

Now I wonder how many, if any, of the 20th century's leading murderers were illiterate while preaching this ideal to their murderee masses?

Kleo

First I'd like to extend a big WELCOME to evelyn. Personal accounts and experiences are always extremely valuable. I'm glad you foundand joined us.

We have several ongoing discussions taking place at any one time, both fiction and nonfiction. Some discussion leaders do not choose a pre-discussion exchange; I for one keep mine to a minimum, as you can see in this case.
evelyn , when Mao died in 1976, conditions and circumstances slowly changed for the people. The book reflects the writer's fictionalized experiences between 1971/72 (73?), when a heavy blanket of secrecy still prevailed and the world outside knew little of what went on.
Change may have been slow, but I can well believe that your daughter-in-law grew up in better times.

As the book opens, Luo is 18 in 1971, the narrator a year younger. There is enough information in the book about the effects of the Cultural Revolutiont (pp.7-9) to make any further explanation unnecessary. Luo and the narrator wondered idly in their isolation in the house on stilts whatever made Mao conceive the idea and came to the conclusion that it was due to hatred for all intellectuals. No one can know for sure, but a quarter century after his death, all kinds of formerly unknown, unsuspected details have come to light, and, from what I understand, that is true for the latest biography mentioned here, "Mao, The Untold Story".

It has come to light some time ago though that Mao's family was not poverty-stricken but moderately well-to-do. He, the eldest of four children, actually had teacher's training in Beijing, and some biographies say he held a faculty position. By imposing the closing of schools and universities and banning all books, especially Western literature, he may have hoped to silence all moderates, who resisted his ideas.

There are several ironies in the book, one of them is the fact that Luo and the narrator WERE not intellectuals properly speaking : they had to wait for two years before the schools reopened (for the Cultural Revolution to calm down) (pg., and then found to their disappointment that mathematics, physics and chemistry had been scrapped from the curriculum. In all likelihood it wasthe status of their parents, doctors, that led to the call for their reeducation.

It is another irony that that reeducation failed, spectacularly. And a third irony is that Luo, tha patent victim of the proposed reeducation--- and like the narrator one of only three people with the same background who could expect to ever be sent home (!) --- is all too ready to "educate" the little seamstress (!), who does not quite "measure up".

Like HATS I feel profound sympathy for the young men who were subjected to such ceaseless indoctrination, physical and mental deprivation. And I can well believe that the fearful term "the little coal mine" sends shivers down the author's spine. (last sentence, pg. 31.)

Yes, I can well believe that the villagers on the "Phoenix of the Sky" ountain had never seen a violin or another musical instrument. They had never seen an alrm clock either. After all, many of them had happily and combatively grown opinion before they were made into farmers. So reports the first Westerner who set foot there in the 1940s (1940s!) on his way to Tibet, the French missionary Father Michel.t (pg. 12-14).

The mention of Sylvester Stallone may be an anachronism, but perhaps the point is how eager the Chinese were to see movies, how entranced they were by the stories shown there - and who would blame those who live in remoe rural districts ?

Surely it is not coincidence that the author "Balzac" became a filmmaker.

Stringed instruments would not be as foreign in a remote village in most of the world as an alarm clock for the primary reason that most villagers already possess the skills and materials and knowledge to make a stringed instrument, but not an alarm clock. Anyone who can haul and cut wood for fuel, bowls, spoons, hollow out a gourd for water (like the peasant who owns an instrument and runs a mill), know what plant will produce the gourd, kill and butcher an animal and prepare the innards is skilled enough to make a musical instrument, even one played with a bow, an ancient idea in itself. These are the types of skills that would be common in a rural society out of necessity.

But to make a rooster herald the morning? That moves one from paleolithic to iron age, at the very least. Funky metal work seems a lot more modern than a hollow box and catgut.

I guess my problem with this part of the book is it seems to be trying to show the villagers as too primitive to even grasp a musical instrument--Paleolithic, not agricultural. It seemed unnecessary or condescending of the peasants to me.

Kleo

For me, the best thing about the book is its location and the people. This is a part of the world and a time that I really know nothing about. It was great fun to be transported someplace so incredibly foreign.

I think that is what makes the few false notes so irritating, simply that the book as a whole was such an exotic experience, I'm pickier than I would be.

This is not really something I thought of with RAW in particular. I grew up on the West Coast, and my family is rather international. My tendency is to look at what makes humans so alike, no matter their background. This part of the world the boys were sent to is really really different. The book makes me feel this, this uniqueness, so much better in its minutiae, that I don't think it needed to try to paint the villagers as so unsophisticated as to not know a stringed instrument from a child's toy. I like the softer details, the boys meandering for days through the wet and these dangerous ledges, the shoes, the infestations, the smell of the foods, the thwap of a buffalo's tail, the pain of an animal without the editorials.

Kleo

When I sent my post # 92, the screen said "no access", and my heart sank, though abrupt disconnections, especially from AOL, are not a novel experience.

So I signed on with some trepidation just now, wondering how best to reconstruct my missive, which I believed lost. Lo and behold, there it was , in its entirety ! Now I can focus on the virtues of this book, as I perceive them.

First there is the division into three parts, a perfect "encapsulation" of the content. Part I is the mise en scène = the setting of the scene, bits of background, the new surroundings and the first harsh weeks/months of labor. After the waste disposal detail, the copper mine turns out to be worse and badly frightens both young men, causing suicidal thoughts in Luo, who then comes down with malaria. Relief and light, literally, come through help from the little seamstress, of all people.

In part II the author comes to the meat of this novel, if I may call it that, and the writing is masterful, in some places it is lyrical, in my opinion.

Thank you all for your posts and insights. Please keep them coming. Thank you.

Speaking of Luo's malaria and the little seamstress' help....What was that stuff she put on his wrist, anyway?

I feel inhibited here for several reasons. One of them is that I read the book several months ago, and should re-read it. The second reason is more serious: I came from behind the Iron Courtain, and have personal experiences, although milder than those in the book. That is why I didn't learn a lot about China in the book: it seems that I read my own experiences about being cut off from culture, literature, and arts. I remember my horrible hunger to go beyond the propaganda, how desperate I was when I saw books disappearing from the public library, the poor choice of movies, etc. I also happen to know a lot about concentration camps. In short, it was not China for me.

The thing that saved my soul and mind was our extensive family library, but it consisted mainly or even only of the classics.

I had shivers all over my spine while I was reading the book.

Please, forgive me for being so subjective.

I don't know from the description in the book what plant the Little Seamstress is using. I could probably find out.

However, there is an herb which has been know for centuries by the Chinese to alleviate the symptoms of Malaria, Chinese Wormwood, Sweet Wormwood, or Qing Hao (Artemisia annua) . This plant, however, has yellow flowers. It's a member of the Sunflower family and related to familiar plants to us Westerners such as Great Basin Sage Brush (A. tridentada) and everyone's literary favorite used to make the Lost Generation's liqueur, Absinthe--wormwood or A. absinthium. A derivative of A. annua is used, as is quinine, and many other drugs, to treat Malaria today.

I don't think this is the plant mentioned in the book, though because its flowers are not pink as described in the book, although this might be regional variation (unlikely as they are yellow), and are not anything resembling outsize peach blossoms. In addition, a poultice is an unlikely means of curing malaria. In fact, this bought of fevers probably just ran its course for Luo. A. annua is probably a high elevation plant, and because it is so effective it was probably known widely throughout its growing range for its efficacy in treating Malaria.

Kleo

hegeso: Wow...My goodness, there's nothing to be forgiven for that I can see. For my part, I'm hoping you will share your own experiences as they sound as if they mirror what our two young men were experiencing.

jane

TRAUDE, I enjoyed your wonderful post. I am glad the computer did not eat up your thoughts.

Jane, I feel the same way. Hegeso, reading about your personal experiences behind the Iron Curtain are very moving. Your experiences just add to my knowledge about what it is like to live in another part of the world where people are deprived of their freedoms.

What an interesting discussion this is turning into and I haven't even got the book yet. I ordered it on our library's web site and they have to have it sent over from another library and then email me that it is here. Should get it today or tomorrow.

Hegeso, you must be viewing this book from a perspective very different from most of us. I do hope you will share your experiences with us.

Did you notice that in his description of the small town where the movies are shown the narrator mentioned a library. It makes me curious about the publishing industry during the time of the Cultural Revolution -- did they have a crash program to publish only "enlightening" books of propaganda, then hustle them off to libraries.

As for Sylvester Stallone -- I just assumed the narrator was telling this from his adult perspective, and learned of Stallone in the post Cult. Rev. years.

Glad to mentioned the author's work as a filmaker, Traude. Which is his major labor -- writing or filmaking.?

Hegeso ~
Please do post more about your experiences, as you feel able to, as many of us have grown up in the U.S. and can only imagine a childhood without unlimited information.
I grew up in a very modest household, but the library was there for reading and the radio was there for music and information.

Traude ~
Could you clarify on "How much of the traditions lingered?"
Do you mean how much did the villagers rely on pre-communist tradition?
Obviously folk medicine pervaded modern times,
as it does even here in the West, with many home remedies for flu and colds,
not to mention how China retains the remedy of chicken soup today, as we do here.

I don't have book as yet. The library has ordered it for me.

But I drop by daily and read all the posts and feel already as part of this group. Hopefully I'll get my book soon.

Hegeso, I am especially interested in your sharing, as Mippy said, "as you feel able to..."

Alliemae

Thank you for your posts. They are truly appreciated.

HEGESO, dear friend, and hello. Sorry not to have WELCOMED you earlier. I understand your feelings about the dark memories of the past. They are always in the background, but unforgettable, = part of one's life; it is difficult to talk about them with anyone who has not seen or been affected by such evil.

Hundreds of people have found a modicum of relief by writing about their experiences, but some would feel uncomfortable doing so. Dai Sijie does not dwell on brutalities and atrocities. His tone is light; in fact, tone, atmosphere and charm carry the book -- so far.
The fact that the author himself has undergone the process of re-education gives the story its special poignancy.

MIPPY, I meant to raise the question of how deep, how lasting Mao's teachings really were (or could have been), and whether a sense, a feeling of the centuries-old traditions may not possibly have remained (lingered) in people's subconscious. Even tyrants are mortal, and some die by their own hand.

When I was in China, I saw sweet potatoes being sold along the streets. They were on top of 55 gallon fuel drums. I suppose there were two purposes: one being to cook the potatoes with the fire inside and then to keep them warm. The other would be to keep the seller as warm as possible. I was there in the winter and it was cold. I had forgotten about sweet potatoes until the incident on P.84 between the narrator and Four-Eyes mother.

In my journeys throughout a great deal of Asia, I seldom noticed anyone wearing glasses and wondered why. Was it due to the poverty or the shape of the eyes? This story is saying that a rich boy is wearing spectacles so maybe poverty plays a role, yet I was traveling in the late nineties. I can't have run into just poor people consistently. Anyone know the answer?

While we were finishing our lunch, we were told we could peek in on a wedding reception that was being held upstairs so some of us did. The bride was all decked out in a beautiful red satin dress which is the traditional bridal color in China, so we were told. It is supposed to bring good luck. I hung back out of respect but was beckoned forward by the bride. They wanted me to take pictures with my camcorder so I did. All of this was done through motioning because of the language barrier. Then they had people take pictures of us. That truly was a memorable experience!

In some ways, I felt more constrained in China and yet, at other times, had more contact than I did in other countries. I had that same feeling in Vietnam as well.

Thank you all for your understanding. Those were bad times. The husband of my best friend was taken into AVH prison (for Germanophones, it is the Hungarian variation of Stasi, or the Russian KBG.) He was absolutely innocent, a math teacher. When he was released after the usual 'treatment, they told him his address, which he didn't remember anymore, and how to get there, and also the names of his daughters for the same reason. My friend's telephone was bugged, and I was also observed because I talked to her--I never abandoned her.

An other acquaintance of mine, also a mathematician, was taken one night, and never returned. Obviously, his wife and little daughter were threatened not to talk about the event. In consequence, the little daughter lost her power of speech and never gained it back.

One more friend was imprisoned during a kangoroo trial, for a very long time. When he was released, he cut all contact with everybody. I never saw him anymore.

It was not only the books....

I opened a can of worms....

I, too, traveled in China in the late nineties, and when the mention of eyeglasses,I think back --- I don't remember seeing very many with glasses.

However, in one class we attended in Lhasa, Tibet, our instructor/lecturer wore thick lenses and must have been very near-sighted.

hegeso

I am so sorry. I can't imagine having to live through your situation.

I hope your life is better now.

Thanks, patwest, for your info. I have been to Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Thailand, etc. and I just don't remember seeing glasses much. As I traveled, I tried to compare similarities and differences and that really began to stand out.

I have something to add: I am also a Holocaust survivor. Too many bad things in one life. It is better for me not to talk anymore about those things.

I couldn't help but think while I was traveling in Vietnam that I was having a nice experience compared to the people living there during the many wars. Also,for the soldiers who had fought there no matter which side they were on. Actually, I felt guilty being in Vietnam with the wounds being fairly fresh. When people heard we were going there, many asked, "Why would you want to do that?" The countries I really wanted to see were Hong Kong,Singapore and Thailand. The cruise ship made three stops in Vietnam in between. But as it turned out, Vietnam was one of the more memorable countries I have visited.

patwest- I met a woman on a trip in the summer of 1995 traveling in Spain, Portugal and Morocco on a bus tour who earlier or later went to Tibet. She had lived in FL. and moved to the Midwest. Would that possibly be you?

In the book Chinese burial mounds are mentioned. I have seen many photos of these during an anthropology class--a woman in the class presented a report on Chinese burial customs. I don't know the extent of this in China and don't remember a dang thing else about Chinese burial customs, however there are at least some great number of Chinese who bury their dead above the ground, building mounds atop the bodies. Here is one picture.

Chinese Burial Mounds

China and India Pictures Link

Kleo

Thanks, Hegeso, for sharing your story. I have a friend whose husband is a mathematician. She travelled through Poland and other Iron Curtain countries during the 70s with her husband, meeting many mathematicians. She is a brilliant story teller. I will ask her if she was ever in Hungary.

Kleo

Kleo, thank you for the links.

TRAUDE, I will never forget Luo, his friend and the seamstress. I think the author succeeded in explaining the Cultural Revolution through the lives of the characters.

Finally, the seamstress plays a very big part in the novel. I feel in the beginning and middle part of the novel the seamstress played a small part. Then, in the end, it's like she came out of the shadows and the book became her book. I wonder if my feelings make sense.

Hats off to Hats for the comment that "the author succeeded in explaining the Cultural Revolution through the lives of the characters." Sometimes one has to think about what the author is trying to do with the book to answer whether the author succeeds (regardless of one's opinions on the book). I think that ultimately this is what the author is trying to do: show the sometimes ridiculous and other times tragic impact of a huge historical event on the lives of individuals. I think this is one of the most important things literature can do: humanize history. In this, Dai succeeds.

I think you're right that the Seamstress is important, and that the book became her book. I think your feelings make sense to me because they wrapped up a thought I could not formulate: the role of the Little Seamstress in the novel. She stands, I think, for the great loss of culture that the Mao's Cultural Revolution perpetuated on the Chinese peoples. This is also the why for the title of the book, imo, Balzac led a cultural revolution that showed the value of individuals in the social context, while Mao killed the individuals and attempted to kill the social context, also. Balzac was a success and Mao was a failure.

Victor Hugo eulogized Balzac at his funeral, "Henceforth men's eyes will be turned towards the faces not of those who are the rulers but of those who are the thinkers."

Mao's Cult of Personality is scrap metal next to this.

Kleo

I had not thought that when I was reading ancient Chinese Literature in the early 70s, men and women of China might not have had any access to this. I have a friend who grew up on a farm in China near Kow Loon. Her brothers were taught to read, but she was required to work, including escorting her brothers to and from school. There was a library that she could visit where she taught herself to read. She is now an American scientist. I suspect that she is just the right age to have missed the Cultural Revolution quashing even this avenue of hope for her.

Kleo

Kleo, thank you for Victor Hugo's quote. I wanted to know more about the life of Balzac because his books meant so much to the young men. That is a powerful quote by Victor Hugo.

I find it fascinating and very honorable that you studied Ancient Chinese literature. Your friend's personal experience is interesting too. I take it she was treated differently from her brothers because she was a girl. Then, my mind skips back to the seamstress who spent those many years in a house on a secluded mountain with no chance to see the outside world. Then, the world is opened to her through books.

I have a question. Do we ever learn the name of Luo's friend? I don't remember reading his name. Is it given in the beginning of the book? If his name is not given, I can not think why he is not named by the author.

My uncle spent some years in Borneo, China as a missionary. I was too small to take in any of his experiences.

Sorry to be joining you late this evening; I was off line most of the day. Many thanks for those who posted while I did not.

HATS, your question about Luo and proper names is relevant. In fact, no other character has a name, not even the narrator, only Luo. Perhaps a reason offers itself, or can be tentatively construed, after reading Part III.

ALINA, personal impressions and experiences are most helpful. Thank you for sharing yours with us here. Your travels in Asia alone must have been fascinating.

I'd like to briefly get back to pp 10-11: the narrator recalls a public humiliation of Luo's father, the dentist in disgrace, the reactionary, on the square by the hospital, complete with loudspeakers, a grandstand, and a fanatic mob in attendance. The boys (this was in 1968) watched from a short distance away and listened to the confession of a transgression before a mass of inquisitors.
On the way home the narrator suddenly wept, remembering how fond he was of Luo's father. But why, I wonder, did Luo punch him right then ?

As for the miracle plant, even if the author knew (or later learned) its botanical name, he stayed with "Broken-Bowl-Shards" plant. Whatever it was, it must have helped.

On pg. 40, when Luo is asleep, the seamstress asks the narrator whether he believes in things that cannot be explained naturally, and he answers guardedly. Then she says, "You sound as if you think I'll denounce you."
This shows the ever-present, mortal fear of denunciation, of being overheard and then reported to authorities, a fear well known by people in countries with a dictatorial system.

Units of the metric system are used: 30 meters, 20 kilometers, 60 kilograms (the rice in Four Eyes hod). I'll post the converted values tomorrow.

Thank you.

Re: "On the way home the narrator suddenly wept, remembering how fond he was of Luo's father. But why, I wonder, did Luo punch him right then ?"

I felt that Luo was trying so hard to be brave and stoic after being forced to watch his father's degradation and torture. When Luo saw his friend cry, he saw him display those feelings that Luo must have had inside and was trying desparately to suppress. So, he lashed out at his friend who, to Luo, should have been as brave and stoic as he.

Marni

Hi TRAUDE,

When I asked the question, I had finished the book. Still, I didn't know why the narrator did not have a name. Thank you for mentioning Part III.

This is what stayed constantly with me. The feeling of "denunciation" or betrayal that Luo and the narrator lived with everyday. The fact that the narrator had to write the words of Balzac's book inside his coat, on the lining, and pray that the words would not smudge. Always knowing that in some way his deeds might become known. For such a deed an arrest always loomed over their heads.

I think at one point the narrator said he felt like a "sadist." This is when the headman was having his tooth worked on by Luo. The narrator used the sewing machine as a drill. He slowed the machine down so that the head chief could experience as much pain as possible. At that point, Luo's poor friend felt he had become no better than any of Mao's cruel gang. I could understand his feelings. I wanted him to keep the machine at a slow pace.

It is demeaning and cruel what such a system can do to the human spirit in a person. Surely, it must become difficult not to change and become completely like the men who are controlling your mind.

I think these young men did well. They held on to their dignity despite such horrible odds.

Re: "On the way home the narrator suddenly wept, remembering how fond he was of Luo's father. But why, I wonder, did Luo punch him right then ?"

Marni, I agree with you about Luo having the same feelings of his friend, but thinking he had to hide them. But Luo also must have had a lot of anger for what was done to his father, and he needed to lash out at someone. Luo's friend was there, a friend indeed to salve Luo's need to react.

Re: denunciation: There were times when I thought the boys were quite "audacious," such as early scene with the violin when Luo said his friend would play a piece by Mozart. And when they dressed up as state representatives to get songs from the old miller. And stayed in bed to read, and skipped work when the headman was gone. I wondered why they weren't afraid of being turned in and decided it was youth's everpresent bravado.

Deprivation of sleep is one way of torturing people. In order to sleep people will do anything to just close their eyes for a few minutes. Luo and the narrator are not deprived of sleep. They are deprived of music and words.

Young people are so in tune to emotions. Music and books are one way of feeding those emotions of love, loss, rejection. I think Luo and the narrator would have done anything to feed their souls. This is why, maybe, at times they would seem so careless with their lives. I guess it is the "ever present bravado" of youth.

When the boys took a key and entered Four Eyes house, I held my breath the whole time. Luo and the narrator took the chance because what they wanted overcame their fear. It was better to have tried and not succeed. Then, never to have tried at all.

I, too, wondered at their daring in entering the house, not going to work, and slipping away to see the Little Seamstress, etc, and was also holding my breath as Hats described so well. I, too, upon reading what the rest of you think, do agree it's the bravado/arrogance of youth..."we won't get caught." I guess we were all "infected" with that when we were their ages, but I'd forgotten!

I also wonder if it's a bit of the arrogance of being from a 'privileged' background in feeling that they're a bit above the "law"? I also felt that sort of "attitude" when Luo was trying to "improve" the Little Seamstress. He seemed to feel she needed to be elevated in status to be worthy of his attention/lust/love. As it happened, after he'd "improved" her, she went off on her own, felt she could do better in the city for herself and left him and her father behind.

jane

I read the funniest part last night and had to laugh. When the narrator was sitting in the hospital gynecology waiting room with the pregnant women who were glaring at him for being there, a male and not pregant. He said he wished he had arrived dressed up as a woman with a pillow stuffed under his shirt so he looked pregnant.

Yes, I agree that these boys exhibit the typical arrogance of youth. I can't fault them for that. But I also catch the class arrogance mentioned by others. This did irk me while reading Seamstress. This is the sort of thing that makes me wonder about the author--is he an arrogant upper-crust SO--whatever? However, this is also one of the areas where I have to back off and say, would it really be credible if the book were only about people who are lovable and inhumanly perfect in all their qualities?

In reality there are some wonderful people who have traits we don't like--some of our near relatives, for example. To me, this lent more credibility to the narrative, that the author created characters with depth, someone like Luo whose sorrow I could feel as he punched his friend for shared anguish at Luo's father, who can want and see the beauty of the Little Seamstress in the ordinary ways of the lust of a teenage boy, but also in precious ways as seen by the Ginkgo leaves.

In spite of the few jarring moments, like the Stallone comment, the author gains more than he can lose by making his people as human as the rest of us, peasants, students, actors, thieves. I think this is one of the hardest aspects of other cultures: learning to see the good and the bad.

Marni-- I like the OB/Gyn clinic scene, also, especially the thought about going in pregnancy drag. A little irreverence doesn't hurt either.

Kleo

Kleo...I think you've misunderstood my comment about the arrogance of youth and privileged class. I'm referring to your statements

This is the sort of thing that makes me wonder about the author--is he an arrogant upper-crust SO--whatever? However, this is also one of the areas where I have to back off and say, would it really be credible if the book were only about people who are lovable and inhumanly perfect in all their qualities?

I'm not saying that showing this is a fault/flaw of the author's writing. I meant that it was realistic and is the way that people can be. If the characters had been "perfect," they would not have been believable to me. I was simply commenting that the young men showed what I've observed in others of a "privileged" class...that others of their acquaintance must be "improved" to be acceptable. Not true of all, of course, but still often present.

That's what I was trying to say.

jane

Thank you for your posts and your insights. All your points are well taken.

HATS, I'm in agreement with what you said about the tactic of sleep deprivation.

PEDLN, I agree that Luo's punching of the narrator was a physical expression of the hurt he felt at his father's humiliation. The friendship may actually have been strengthened.

True, the young men were a bit high-handed when they first settled in: changing the alarm clock arbitrarily so many times they didn't know what the real time was, not going to work etc. It is easy to imagine the two of them snickering at the naivite of the primitive villagers (who, in turn, ridiculed them in the work places).

The bravado, invincibility, arrogance of youth! A universal trait, wouldn't you say? I believe that only when we have lost all our illusions do we become really old (at whatever age that might be).

Whether we admit it or not, our background - how and where we spent our formative years - are determining factors in who and what we become. Moreover, what we are, we remain - only more so. Psychologists agree.

Yes, Dai Sijie came from a well-to-do family-- all right, the "upper crust". That's why he himself was re-educated. Why would the reader hold that against him? Why would we judge the book or its characters because of who the author was/is ? How would that affect the credibility of the book ?

JANE, your comments were logical and perfectly clear to me.

The metric system is simplicity personified because everything is a multiple of 10. I won't elaborate on the intricacies of conversion but say only that
the boys watched the humiliation of Luo's father from a distance of 30 meters = 32.8 yards.
Four-eyes carried 60 kilos (kilograms or kg) of rice.
1 kg is 2.2 lbs.
1 km (kilometer or km) = 0.62 miles.
Four-eyes, Luo and the narrator walked 20 km. You do the math, please; I'm too tired.

I'll answer HATS's question about Chinese libraries and Balzac tomorrow.
Thank you all.

Jane, I didn't say you were saying it is a fault/flaw of the author. I said "this is the sort of think that makes me wonder..." When I say it makes me wonder, that's what I mean, it is something I am thinking about.

I said essentially the same thing you say in this post, that I find the characters more credible for their faults than I would if they had none.

Jane, I'm not at all sure how you get that I am saying you are "saying that showing this is a fault/flaw of the author's writing."

Anyhow, we are in basic agreement about this, that it adds credibility to the book that the characters are presented flaws and all. I find the flaws generally more credible than other new books I've read recently, also. These kids are growing up under tough and rugged circumstances. They're not angels is part of their reality.

Kleo

Again, I've misunderstood what you were saying, Kleo. I thought you were commenting on my comments in the discussion. Glad we're out of that loop!

Traude: I loved the changing of the alarm clock. It sounded so "kid/teenager" to me. It's in the same league, to me, with the kids who could/would change the clocks in the classroom when a new substitute teacher was present or explain to the sub that the recess was much, much longer and the class work much, much shorter...Kids are kids, I guess, wherever they are and whatever the situation.

One thing I can't quite come to terms with is wondering what happened to the Seamstress once she reached the city. I can only wonder if her naïveté landed her in difficulties, did she end up in a sewing factory (and I'm thinking what we call a "sweat shop"), did somebody kind and wonderful take her under a wing and care for her, or ???

It's not part of the story, I realize, but did anybody else wonder?

jane

Jane, I wonder what happened to the Seamstress too. I didn't think she would live through the abortion. So, I felt surprised when she started a totally new life so soon. I do worry about her in the city. She has led such an isolated life. Well, she did have a skill. That must have helped her along, I hope.

Jane, ditto the smiley you posted.

Of course I wondered what happened to her! Even though she was a one-dimensional character compared to the boys (why I think she is a symbol), I wanted to follow her to the new China. She's probably the manager at a sweat-shop.

I think that was the best thing about the book, wanting to follow the Little Seamstress to the new China in spite of her abandonment of literary ways so condescendingly foisted on her by Luo. And wanting to know what happens to the boys! Jane, I think a good book does this to you, leaves you caring enough about the characters that you don't want to let them go, doesn't it? It's also what keeps you reading, and what eventually makes you care about discussing the book.

Hats, Chinese medicine has always been pretty good, even though some Westerners shake their heads at certain aspects, and you wouldn't necessarily want to go to the native hospital in Hong Kong. An abortion in the early 70s in China by a qualified OB/Gyn might not have been as dangerous as an illegal abortion in the US at about the same time. I didn't even think about this, mostly because it was done in a hospital. But it brings up the issue of how many peasants had access to hospital abortions at the time? Probably not many. An herbal abortifactant would have been most likely.

I'm glad you brought this up. These so-called peasant revolutions certainly were hard on the peasants.

Kleo

I'll vouch for it. We had been in Lijiang for a day, when I developed a bladder infection. Knowing we would be going on to Tibet in 2 more days, I asked the guide for advise. She said she would arrange a visit to the hospital. The assistance manager of the Green Park Hotel, (very proficient in English) took me by pedicab to this really dirty hospital, where she described my symptoms to the Dr. He asked if I wanted American medicine or Traditional medicine. The manager said to ask for the traditional. So I was prescribed a brown powder which was terrible tasting when mixed with water, to take twice a day for 2 days. It worked faster that the antibiotics in this country. Twenty four hours later the symptoms were gone.

Cost was $1.25 for the medicine and $.75 for the Dr.

"One thing I can't quite come to terms with is wondering what happened to the Seamstress once she reached the city".

I worried about her too. The implication of the Balzac quote is that she intended to prosper through her beauty: i.e. become a prostitute or find a rich lover. A perilous decision, indeed.

The treatment of her sexuality is one of the weaknesses of the book.

What an interesting experience, Pat. My daughter-the-doctor says there does indeed seem to be some merit in acupuncture and acupressure as well.

Thank you, PAT, for sharing your successful experience with traditional Chinese medicine.

I'm reminded of the TV series with Bill Moyers on healing the Chinese versus the Western way. It was astonishing, for instance how a patient is anaesthetized merely by strategically and expertly placed needles. His book Healing and the Mind is excellent.

Legally performed abortions in China or elsewhere are safer, I'm certain, than those done in back alleys under unsanitary conditions. In China, where the one-child rule is enforced to curb the growth of the country's population, abortion will probably always exist. In this country, Margaret Sanger (1879-1966) fought valiantly for birth control in the nineteen hundreds for the women on the Lower East Side of New York.

As for the future of the little Seamstress, I am not that optimistic. But we'll come to that.

At the time "Balzac" was written, Chinese libraries contained only books by Mao and his cronies, or purely scientific works (pg. 53).

Balzac, 1799-1850, was a phenomenon. He is one of the most important French novelists and ranks with Stendhal ("Le Rouge et le Noir = The Red and the Black). He had an enormous influence on writers of successive generations, e.g. Flaubert.

Balzac's well-to-do family handed him over to a nurse and later sent him to a strict boarding school. As was expected of the sons of his class, he studied law but soon bolted, to the chagrin of his parents.

Naïvely he began a series of costly printing ventures and found himself bankrupt in short order. He wrote feverishly, first under a pseudonym, later under his own name, to which he had added the "de", the title of nobility (Honoré de Balzac). His novels were serialized in newspapers, and he was not only under constant pressure from the editors but always just one step ahead of his creditors.

His aim was nothing less than to reflect in his novels the era in which he lived and all aspects of life in the France of his time.

to be continued

Forgive me for interrupting the post, but I was worried that AOL, my ISP, might have disconnected me (or was about to), as has happened before.

To continue, inspired by Dante's Divine Comedy (La divina commedia), he conceived of writing the human comedy = "La comédie humaine". Of the planned one hundred thirty plus stories, he finished 90. He died at 51, only months after he finally found the love he had been searching for all his life.

His literary output has been grouped into collected stories/novels as Scenes from Military Life; Scenes from Country Life; Philosophical Studies, Scenes from Parisian Life; Scenes from Political Life; and Scenes from Provincial Life . That's where we find "Ursule Mirouët"; she heads the list of Scenes from Provincial Life.

Traude, thank you for the information about Balzac and the Chinese libraries. I feel Balzac's words gave the little Seamstress the courage and passion to begin a new life. I wish we knew her name. Without her name I feel she lacks identity or meaning. When, really, she is as brave or braver than the young men. She takes her chances and leaves the village with arrest or something else horrible hanging over her head. Of course, just getting pregnant could have gotten her in a mile of trouble.

I wonder if the author doesn't give her a name to keep the reader fully alert to what life, at that time, was like for a female. They were treated with disdain. In an earlier time period, before the Cultural Revolution, Pearl Buck wrote about the life of girls and the life of boys in the book 'The Good Earth.' The life of a girl didn't have any worth unless she became a Geisha or a concupine or a slave for her husband.

I need to remember that The Count of Monte Crisco is another book the boys read too.

Forgive me for not being present in this discussion more. I stopped off at the library yesterday to find out what happened to my book as their web site keeps telling me it is "in transit". (For five days??)The librarian there told me that sometimes it gets put back on the shelf accidentally. She called a library in Grand Rapids I will pick up the book there today myself.

My understanding of the Chinese culture is that boy babies, even today, are more valued the girl babies. I recall reading somewhere that they were abandoning girl babies so they could have another baby and hopefully this time, a boy. I know a woman who adopted a baby girl from China and she told me that a large precentage of the kids in orphanages over there are girls.

Traude, thanks for the info about Balzac. Up to now he has only been a name to me.

Denjer, I think you are right when you talk about the value of boy babies in CHina. When I mentioned to a friend that a young woman acquaintance had adopted a baby girl from CHina, my friend said, "it's always a girl. No one can adopt boy babies from CHina."

Chinese medicine -- It sounds like they are keeping the best of the traditional ways and always experimenting with new techniques. This past year two men from my small city went to China for stem cell treatments, one because of spinal injuries (he was paralyzed) and the other for Lou Gerig's disease. They both noted some immediate small improvement in their conditions, but whether it has continued I do not know. Both planned to return to China for further treatment.

Did you notice in the papers this past week that Microsoft, at the request of the Chinese govt., shut down a Chinese political website.

Hats, you've got me thinking about the Count of Monte Cristo. Can you picture those boys telling that story almost through the whole night. That they could remember so much. It makes me wonder if your reading were curtailed and books limited, would you savor them more, make them more a part of your life?

Hi Pedln and Denjer,

I need help. I made a mistake mixing Geishas with China. Aren't Geishas just in Japan? Sorry for the mistake.

The world average is over 100 boys to 100 girls (107 in one article I read), while China's is about 117 boys to 100 girls because of their one-child policy leading to the abortion of girls or the killing of baby girls after birth. This is bad enough that China officially started addressing the problem a couple of years ago.

Hats, I assumed you meant to say courtesans and concubines, so my mind read that. Yes, Geisha's are Japanese.

Chinese traditional medicine blends well with Western medicine if you have a western practitioner knowledgeable in both. For this reason I pick western doctors who are Chinese by birth, especially those who have been educated in China. Even as a very young child in Seattle I was familiar with the Chinese herbalist who kept a practice just two blocks from my house. I see an acupuncturist occasionally, because I find it mellow and relaxing. My acupuncturist insists it works, I insist its his personal demeanor that works--the antithesis of many Western practitioner, never a rush, always plenty of time to chat.

I thought China currently only had the go-ahead for clinical studies on stem cell therapy in leukemia?

Japan and China at war, what do I know? Not much. Japan invaded Manchuria first then spread inland. Japan is a small island nation with finite natural resources including land. In the late 19th century they modernized rather quickly, especially creating its well-disciplined military. What do you do when you have a grand army and a grand plan and little land? You conquer. China. Korea. Russia. The United States? May be the last was the bridge too far. Interested? Somewhat. One of the territorial disputes Japan maintains to this day is about the island Sakhalin, most/some/all? of which is Russian. My grandfather was one of the, if not the, world's leading experts in Sakhalin's geology in the early 20th century. Because of this he was invited as an investigator by the Imperial government to Japan after the Great Kanto Earthquake of 1923.

Great Kanto Earthquake

Kleo

I went to a Chinese American acupuncturist for about 6 months to try to alleviate muscle and skin pain. The doctor had been an anaesthesiologist in America for many years while practicing acupuncture as well. He also used acupuncture for an anaesthetic during surgery instead of knocking people out with medication. Can you imagine? Apparently, some people trusted his skill enough to allow him to do that. He was supposed to be very good. Unfortunately, his skill didn't help me. It was very interesting, though.

A friend of mine had her gall bladder out. There was nerve damage during the surgery and she was in terrible pain afterward. She had to go on long-term disability because she couldn't work with such terrible pain. The doctors finally told her there was nothing more they could do. She went to an acupuncturist who put needles in the scar area. Almost immediately her pain disappeared forever.

Marni

I don't think abortions are extremely complicated surgeries. The Little Seamstress' doctor was a skilled doctor. I didn't worry about her getting the abortion.

I had worried more about her committing suicide earier before the abortion was arranged. She didn't have any options when she became pregnant. She would not have been able to be happy if she completed the pregnancy - she would have been shunned or something - plus she would have had to give up the baby. She wasn't allowed to get married to make things legal - the boys couldn't get married until they were 25.

I worried about a character dying by falling off the pathway over the chasm where the red-beaked raven was. (or whatever the bird was.) The bird seemed very sinister and I felt something bad was going to happen. It seemed symbolic of something. The book seemed to be leading up to a death there, but it never occurred.

I also thought that there might be a possibility the Little Seamstress would die in the pool. The author kept suggesting things like that but they didn't occur.

I don't agree that the seamstress was a one-dimensional character compared to the boys. I thought we saw many very interesting glimpses into her character through the words of the boys. I thought she was the most interesting character in the book. She had a sense of freedom and joy, offering herself to life, expressed by the way she soared open-armed off the cliff diving into the water with great abandon. She was brave and daring, up for anything including illegal books, adventurous, sexually free and experimenting, fun-loving, myschievous, a dare-devil.

Luo may have treated her with condecension, but she soaked up the literature. She was the one who, in the end, lived the words of the books instead of just reading them. She learned something important from books which was expressed in the last sentence of the book: "'She said she had learnt one thing from Balzac: that a woman's beauty is a treasure beyond price.'" I don't think this meant she was heading off to the city to become a prostitute. I think it meant she had realized her inner beauty and she had recognized her self-worth and shouldn't waste herself in meaningless work and relationships. She was going to live life more fully because she was worth it.

Marni

I am a bit behind here as I just obtained this book from the library and started reading it about two hours ago.

So far I am really fascinated by it and want to learn more about China. My youngest son who has always been fascinated by history, especially ancient history really loved Chines history and did a lot of reading on his own in high school. He used to know all the dynasties and the names of the emporers. I never could quite grasp his level of involvement and remember little of the discussions we used to have. I do love books about faraway places especially if they are as well written and translated as this one.

Your posts are a pleasure. Thank you.
MARNI, nobody could have said it better than you did in # 143 : "...offering herself to life." Excellent. The Seamstress was a free spirit.

DENJER, I'm glad you have the book now. It's short, an easy read; historical facts are compressed and seen from the point of view of these adolescents; but it shows a slice of life nonetheless.

Right, HATS, Geisha are a Japanese tradition. Geisha, meaning "artist", is used for both singular and plural. Girls are trained for years to be hostesses from an early age. They learn to sing, dance and how to perform the ritual of serving tea with infinite grace. They also learn social skills, especially how to hold their own in conversation. The classically trained Geisha are not prostitutes. That is a Western misconception.

Arthur Golden's book "Memories of a Geisha" is wonderfully illuminating. It is a fictionalized account of the life of one Geisha, whom the author met in Kyoto, and warmly recommended reading. The recent movie was said to be disappointing.

Let me go back to Part II which introduces the reader to Four-Eyes and sharp reality. Four-Eyes is continually afraid, secretive and overly anxious to make a good impression on the villagers (he leaves his door open, originally), an over-eager beaver - in sum not a sympathetic character.

The detailed description of Four-Eyes plowing a muddy field with an uncooperative, "sadistic" buffalo, the loss of the eyeglasses; later his unsuccessful trip to Thousand-metre Cliff and the boiling in the huge cauldron of the lice-encrusted clothes confirm this impression. It is a marvelous character study.

The chapter about Luo and the narrator (in his ridiculous outfit) and their trip to the same miller with the rippling stomach is hilarious. Four-Eyes fury is fully credible, his threat to tell the commune authorities about the miller shows his true nature. "... suddenly I hated him.", says the Narrator on pg. 81. Small wonder.

I don't know if I failed to have sympathy for Four-Eyes or four anyone who had to suffer plowing a field when they are inexperienced, or gets infested with body lice. It didn't make him out, in my mind, to be unsympathetic. As to telling the commune authorities? Well, they're kids. Kids tattle-tail. In this he is also credible.

I generally felt sorry for all of the inhuman circumstances foisted upon these boys and the villagers by communism, by something so remote, out of touch and meaningless. Marriage at 25? Can't have a baby, but no abortions? They never had an easy way to do anything, any of them. How could Four-Eyes risk sharing his books which were so dangerous? He shared his meat.

If his impression on the villagers may actually get him out of his predicament, what's a little over-eagerness? I just don't see how I could have done better under like circumstances, carried night soil up and down mountains, plowed muddy fields with a sadistic buffalo, done anything without my glasses. What horrid conditions. What is it about Mao or China or communism or tyranny that demands that humans be dehumanized for the leader's glory?

Marni--I like your ending for the Little Seamstress. I'm going to try to buy that one.

My husband lived for many years in Japan. He says that Geisha are prostitutes. The Japanese would like people to think otherwise, certainly tourists, but they are highly trained, expensive prostitutes who see johns behind closed doors and who give a large cut of the money to the madam, just like American call girls, highly trained and highly paid ones, meet men behind closed doors for entertainment and are paid by their pimps they give most of their money to.

Not all prostitutes in Japan are Geisha! There are plenty of others. And there are other entertainments that Geisha provide, their singing, the tea ceremony.

Another name for geisha is child slavery. They young girls are purchased from poor parents. I don't believe they are allowed to marry except in one of their codified relationships where they are allowed to serve a single older man who pays for this service.

It's child slavery followed by prostitution.

Kleo

I was disappointed in the author's characterization of Four-Eyes. He was like a slapstick comedian in an old movie. I thought he was overdone, so ridiculous that he wasn't amusing. He sort of reminded me of Charlie Chan's assistant in the Charlie Chan movies.

I thought other instances of humor were much funnier and added many light moments to the horrible existence the main characters were forced to live.

Getting ready early for a doctor's appointment and must answer the latest posts. MARNI, you are right. Not all "supposed" humor is actually funny. I believe that the Narrator despised Four-Eyes and dwelt on these details deliberately. But F.E. was a Mama's boy and his mother, the poetess, got him out. But that comes later. Yes, he was a caricature really, but there were such people in such systems.

I do not believe that the threat to denounce the miller to the commune authorities was a joke. The miller would have been arrested or worse, just for sharing forbidden erotic knowledge, never mind the terrible implications for Luo and the Narrator. To dismiss Four-Eyes' threat as kid's stuff does not take into account the very real, serious danger. Four-Eyes was a weasely type, a self-serving coward and a lyer, as the text shows.

I recommend reading "Memoirs of a Geisha" and/or checking the copious information available on the web. It definitely disproves the simplistic assumption and assertion that all Geisha are prostitutes.
After the bloody war of the Pacific, the occupying G.I.s had little interest in or time for delving into Japaness culture. But generalizations can be wrong and can lead to misconceptions, as they seem to have done in this case.
Besides, a little (i.e. too little) knowledge is a dangerous thing, as the saying goes.

In haste.

I came to hate four-eyes also. My opinion of the two main characters changed a little when they started plotting to steal Four-eyes' suitcase. Then I stopped to think, what would any of us do? Four-eyes was trying to escape the conditions the only way he could figure out how and the two boys were trying to do the same thing. Their escape was through the books and here was Four-eyes not only escaping but leaving with their escape as well.

Denjer, I had not thought of that aspect of Four-Eyes taking their escape also.

Nonetheless, the presentation of Four-Eyes was through the eyes of teenage boys, as the author intended, and adolescent boys can have serious malice towards each other. In these dangerous times what could anyone do but upgrade their worst aspects? However, had Four-Eyes left the book and the boys been caught with him, they would have told on him to save themselves, costing Four-Eyes for leaving them.

It's a little hard to get beyond the meanness and pettiness of the name-calling, as it seems something reserved for younger kids. I wore classes all of my life and was called four-eyes exactly once by a girl in the lunch line in 7th grade. The cafeteria servers all laughed at her and said, "Ain't you a wee bit old for that?" She wound up being the one humiliated. He shared with them as best he could. He was paranoid. It was difficult times. Did the boys do better surviving communism than he did? Are they morally superior in this? I just can't imagine living in these times, they are so foreign to me, it's hard to criticize a young adult for petty behavior under these circumstances.

Tattletale does not mean joke. From Encarta:

5. somebody who tells secrets: a person, especially a child, who tells others about another person's secrets or bad behavior

Well, this is not the time or place to debate your single source on geishas, Traude.

Kleo

Great posts.

I didn't think of Four Eyes as a caricature, nor did I feel any great dislike of the child. He sounded to me like a very frightened child of 13 or so who is trying to survive in a brutal system. Yes, a tattle-tale, if need be, to survive. He reminded me of the kid in school who was always telling the teacher about somebody else's bad behavior because he's so frightened of a new school/situation and has no confidence in his ability to survive. FE had possession of the items that could indeed have been his death, remember. Perhaps he desired and needed the books even more than the other two boys did. He'd brought them with him and had them in his possession. Our two fellows hadn't done that. FE knew he was a "marked boy" if those were found, so I felt he used what he had...telling the authorities on the other two...as his only defense. What did he have to use to threaten them if they decided to threaten him? Yes, his mother came to him and got him out. What mother would not, if she could?

jane

I'm in the process to set up things for tomorrow's meeting (here) of the local book group members; I like to get it done ahead of time to avoid last-minute rushes. So I will comment briefly only on Four-Eyes. JANE, I believe he was older than 13 and, in fact, the age of Luo and the Narrator. In 1971, Luo was 18, the Narrator 17. In fact, when the two of them travel to the miller's, the year is 1973 (I'll check the pg when I have more time.)

When Luo and the Narrator speculated about the fine leather suitcase and its precious content, they remembered that F.E.'s mother was a poetess of some fame for her odes; the father a writer; the books probably theirs. It is somewhat curious that the parents would put the already "marked" son in even greater danger by leaving the books with him because discovery could have had grave consequences indeed.

IMHO, F.E. was a moral coward (who lied to his mother about both companions), she was an opportunist; neither had personal integrity. I'll look up the respective passages when I have more time. It is amazing what one can find the second or third time around ...
As a famous aphorist said,"A good book contains more truths than may appear at first."

KLEO, with respect, it is not my intention to debate anything. But I felt it necessary to reply to your categorical statement that Geisha (again, the word is the same for the singular AND the plural; no "s" are "prostitutes", because it is at variance with encyclopedic and web information, and also with Arthur Golden's splendid book.

More later.

Re Four Eyes and his mother....

I thought it was weird that when the narrator met FE's mother, he asked her if her son was "Four Eyes" and she said yes. Wouldn't you think it normal that a mother would be shocked and annoyed to have boys calling her son "Four Eyes," a derogative term certainly. If I had been his mother, I would have told the narrator off.

Instead of the re-education why didn't they call it the un-education?

Denjer, that's a good one.

What's interesting, and becoming even more interesting, about this book is how our opinions about the characters are all over the place. It hardly seems some of us were reading the same book (which we weren't because the reader adds so much to the experience, and we all ARE individuals).

Jane, I really think you are on target with FE's and his survival skills. I think this also explains why his parents gave him the books: Luo and the narrator had each other, and a friend is one of the most powerful survival tools one can have.

Marni, really useful comment, I had not thought of the obvious, that how derogatory it sounds to me, may not be how derogatory the comment would be in Chinese culture. Thanks for the reminder.

Denjer, it certainly is diseducation, not re-education. I don't think any name for it would make it any less surreal. It's like the fisheries term bycatch for the millions and millions of non-target fish caught each other: it's meant to sound like something it's not. The attempt is to uneducate.

Kleo

PS Memories of a Geisha:

"Readers experience the entire life of a geisha, from her origins as an orphaned fishing-village girl in 1929 to her triumphant auction of her mizuage (virginity) for a record price as a teenager..."

Maybe it is prostitute we are having difficulties with. Sex for money. The selling of one's virginity for money involves sex.

"So Sayuri flows forward, absorbing a geisha's traditional education: the shamisen lessons and tea ceremonies; the dance lessons and ikebana; witnessing nights of entertaining in Kyoto's most elegant tea houses. All the while she is aware that her fortunes will always hinge on others: on the whims of Mother, the head of the okiya; on the intrigues of Gion itself; on her ability to negotiate the rivalries between herself and her fellow apprentices and between Mameha and Hatsumomo; and most important, on Mameha's handling of the delicate negotiations that surround the bidding for Sayuri's mizuage, or virginity, a step that will largely determine whether or not she will be able to secure for herself a favorable danna, or patron, without which any geisha is, as Mameha instructs, like 'a stray cat on the street.'"

The author of this book is a man, and he may want to think there is something precious and unique about this particular prostitution, but sex for money is prostitution, whether dressed up finely as a courtesan or geisha or high priced out-call girl, or on skid row with tracks marching up and down the street and your arm, this is what prostitution is: sex for money. Sex to the highest bidder for money seems to qualify.

pros·ti·tu·tion noun

Definitions:

1. work of prostitute: the act of engaging in sexual intercourse or performing other sex acts in exchange for money, or of offering another person for such purposes

Encarta-- Prostitution

KLEO, as I said, I will not debate, especially not in this case. Whatever a Geisha is believed to be, is or is not has no bearing on our book and the current discussion. Incidentally, who wrote the review from which you quoted, and where ?

Yes, Luo and the Narrator went to Thousand-metre Cliff in 1973, pg. 70.

The passages to wich I was referring in my # 152 can be found on pg. 67, paragraphs 1 and 2.

"Two weeks earlier he (F.E.) had received a letter from his mother, the poetess who had once been famous in our province for her odes on mist, rain and the blushing memory of first love. She informed him that an old friend of hers had been appointed editor-in-chief of a journal devoted to revolutionary literature, and that he had promised, despite his precarious situation, to try to find a position at the journal for her son. To avoid any semblance of favouritism, he suggested that he publish in his journal the words to a number of popular ballads, that is to say sincere, authentic folk songs full of romantic realism, which Four-Eyes would collect from the peasants on the mountain.
After receiving this news Four-Eyes walked on air. He felt completely changed. For the first time in his life he was suffused with happiness. He refused to go out to work in the fields. Instead he threw himself heart and soul into the solitary search for mountain folk songs. He was confident that he would succeed in assembling a vast collection, which would enable his mother's former admirer to keep his promise. But a whole week passed without his coming up with a single song-line worthy of publication in an official journal." (italicizing mine)

I have been working on a theory and will submit it for your consideration after we have fully covered Part II.
Perhaps we should not be too concerned about, or disappointed by the fact that the characters don't have first names, except Luo. The author may have omitted names intentionally because he neant to portray the characters as symbols.

Those who finished this deceptively "simple" book will have noticed that the structure of Part III differs in certain respects from that of Parts I and II. There must be a reason.
Thank you for bearing with me.

Yes, as I said earlier, I think they are symbols.

Yes, Four Eyes uses the time-honored and tested method, so popular today all over the world of favoritism.

Traude, there is nothing left to debate. The review is from Barnes & Noble:

Barnes & Noble

I can't seem to get it to link again without my personal bn account, though. Please just search for Memoirs of a Geisha and click on the first one.

Kleo

I have been thinking about Four Eyes. As I read the book I remember feeling a little perturbed with him. I didn't despise him. Their world is so cruel. I think each character is just trying to survive and get through another day.

I did find myself agreeing wholeheartedly with Jane's last post. Jane's post helped me to change my mind about the mother. For some reason, I didn't like Four Eyes mother. Jane's post made me see her as the typical mother. She came to save her son. Her son, naturally, is her first priority.

Marni made me recall the lighter moments in the book. When the narrator hid under the bed by the "unspeakable" hoping it wouldn't spill, I really laughed.

Traude and Kleo, I think there are symbols too. I think the author doesn't give names for specific reasons. It definitely isn't an oversight on his part.

Big things come in small packages. That's how I feel about this book. I would see so much more on a second reading. I intend to start rereading Part II. I think that is where Traude is going to pick up.

There were times when reading this book I felt the main character was Luo, not the narrator. Luo was definitly the center of the love story which only happened from the viewpoint of the narrator. I thought this very unusual. There were actually two love storys here. The obvious one between Luo and the little seamstress and then there was the love the narrator held for his friend, Luo. He put himself in great danger to help out his friend.

The only thing I thought of as symbols in the story were the red-beaked ravens who were always menacing and watchful.

Excellent insights, HATS and DENJER !

I won't be able to post until the members of the local book group have left. The table is set for them, but there's more to do before they come at 1 p.m.

Re: "Luo was definitly the center of the love story which only happened from the viewpoint of the narrator. I thought this very unusual. There were actually two love storys here."

I thought there were 3 love stories. The 3rd was the story of the narrator's love for the Little Seamstress. He loved her from a distance for most of the book. Then, at the end, when Luo left for a month, he asked the narrator to watch the seamstress closely so that the other boys interested in her didn't take his place. Ha! This was sounding like....Cyrano de Bergerac??

At any rate, the narrator began a much closer relationship with the seamstress. I thought something was developing here, but it didn't end the way I thought it would. But, it was he who saved her from her terrible jam by arranging for the abortion.

I thought the ending of the book indicated something very important about the seamstress' feelings for the narrator. Luo is talking with the seamstress and the narrator is watching from a distance. The seamstress "...grabbed her bundle and strode off down the path. 'Wait,' I [the narrator] shouted....At my first shout she hastened her step, at my second she broke into a run, and at my third she took off like a bird, growing smaller and smaller until she vanished...."

It seems to me that the seamstress is forcing herself to run away from the narrator. At each shout, she goes faster and faster away from him. The words suggest to me that the narrator was more important to her than Luo.

Marni

The Little Seamstress is compared to a bird a number of times in the book. For example, when she dives into the book, her description is like a beautiful bird. When she runs from the boys at the end of the book, she is compared to a bird. I think there are other places, as well.

Birds seem important in the book. They seem to be symbols sometimes. For instance, the raven at the end of the path over the chasm to the seamstress' home. What was that all about?

Yes, I agree with Denjer. I have long thought that the main character actually was Luo and the author was alluding to that by giving him a name. Everything in the book through Part 2 revolves around him...the seamstress, the narrator, his mother, his father (the punching), etc.. I haven't read any further because I have been ill.

Not having read the 3rd part puts me at a disadvantage but I am wondering if the book being in three parts could be for the following reasons:

1. the life cycle...birth, growth & death a. boys-their sexless youth b. boys-sexual awakening with the Chinese seamstress c. boys-their death when she cut them off by going to the city

2. a. seamstress-didn't have knowledge of world other than mountain b. seamstress-gained knowledge from boys c. seamstress-left mountain village and her mentors..this is an awakening but it is a death of what she has known.

I am sure there are more but not having read Part 3, leaves me not able to explore this theory more deeply.

patwest

please check my #111 post at the bottom. Thanks, Alina138

Alina -- I missed that post.

No, it wasn't I. I was in China the Spring of '98. --- and I have lived in IL for 150 years.

I wondered about the three parts too. They were almost three seperate stories. I did think about the third love story, but since it was much more subtle I was never quite sure about it.

I think one thing that was totally unexpected, for me anyway, was the sudden intrusion of the miller into the story. I mean by that, the change in viewpoint briefly to him. Does anyone have a good guess as to why the author did this. I am going to go back and read that chapter again to see if I can figure it out.

patwest

Thanks for the info..just hoping to reconnect with someone I met 10+ years ago in Spain, whose company I really enjoyed.

Going back to some other posts. While majoring in Spanish, it became quite evident that the only life for Latino women was marriage, convent or prostitution by the books we were given to read in their native language. These books spanned various years and various centuries and I am sure that is not necessarily true today. However, those countries are more male-dominated than the US is so I would think their progress is less than ours.

So this may be a common situation many years ago.

Which leads me to think that the little Chinese seamstress prospects weren't that good since she didn't have an education.

I think the whole key is education no matter what country you live in. That is why an Afgan teacher was beheaded recently because he was teaching girls. In some countries, girls are only taught through a certain grade.

In this story, the FE mother is educated and is able to help him. It appears all the educated people are re-educated. I feel educated people are a threat to a leader because they are aware of what is happening and can/may challenge him.

In Cuba, the educated people fled the island. In fact, I met some of them when I traveled to Spain. Also, in Spain, under Franco from 1939 till his death in 1975, his country was pretty well shut down from the outside world. Again, most of the intelligent elite had left the country. When I was there in 1991, it was much poorer looking than the rest of Europe. Again, in 1995 it was looking better but did not appear as an equal to the rest of the Western-European Continent. This is what happens when you have a dictator who runs a country with no opposition. The Cuba I saw before Castro was attractive and well kept because I was there, but the pictures I see now are sad!!!

Marni, I think you hit on the nose. I thought the narrator had feelings for the little Seamstress too. When Luo leaves and the narrator becomes her protector, I began to think the narrator had fallen in love with the Seamstress. I am so glad you brought this part of the story up. Now I know my mind did not deceive me.

I see other symbols too. When Luo tells his story he talks about keys and a tortoise. Luo talks about three different keys. A jade key given to him by his mother as a birthday gift. A second key used for his house and personal possessions in the house. Then, the third key is the one to Four Eyes house.

Next Luo talks about a turtle he and the Seamstress spotted while swimming. He carves two figures on the turtle's back. Luo allows the turtle to go into the water.

My mind did not need to think hard about the keys and the turtle. Luo says important words while letting the turtle head back to the water. "Who will ever release me from this mountain?....As I folded up my penknife and added it to the keys jangling on the ring, those Chengdu keys that I probably wouldn't use ever again, I had a lump in my throat. I envied the tortoise its freedom. With a heavy heart I flung my key ring into the pool."

Those keys and the tortoise symbolized freedom to Luo. I suppose while living under such conditions as Alina describes above almost everything can become a picture of freedom. The thought of freedom is what a person would think about while eating, sleeping, dressing and doing every other day in and day out activity.

Luo also speaks about the Seamstress ability to swim so gracefully. While he watched her swim, I suppose he thought of freedom again. If only he had the ability to swim far away, not stopping until he came to a place where he could think and learn freely.

Hats: Luo's keys were lost forever, too. That was an interesting story about the Little Seamstress trying to dive to reach them and return them to Luo. She'd dive deep and long attempting to reach them. She and Luo made a sexual game out of it, if I recall correctly.

She was stymied in her efforts of retrieval by a snake who frightened her. He sort of came out of nowhere and seemed to guard the keys, not allowing her to get at them. (Another symbol??)

We saw a good example of how brave the seamstress was here because, although she was very frightened of the snake, it did not deter her from going after the keys again. Finally, the snake bit her and scarred her for life. That was the end of diving for the keys and the end of the keys for Luo.

Marni

HATS, MARNI: good analysis.

Yes, from what I can remember Luo finally lost interest in the keyring game. The Seamstress continued to dive over and over again for the keyring. As if not regaining the keys would mean a loss of freedom for Luo and herself.

Marni, like you I believe the snake was a symbol too. The snake bit the Seamstress leaving a lasting scar on her finger. Snakes, to me, always mean the presence of danger and cunning. I think the bite of the snake would always remind the Seamstress of the dangers she faced while on the mountain. Also, the snake bite, in the city, would remind her of the cost she was willing to pay for future, unforeseen dangers.

Luo received a letter to return home. His mother was ill. He thought about the fact that he did not have the keys to the house. I think Luo did not have the keys because his freedom was not complete. The headman only allowed him to return home for a month, far from complete freedom.

Joank, we were typing at the same time, I think.

Marni, Hats, good analyses. I think the snake also is the obvious loss of innocence, why I liked someone's earlier analysis of a bright future for the Little Seamstress better than my own.

Yes, Alina, education is the key to everything. That is why the Taliban refused an education to the women of Afghanistan, why Mao uneducated the Chinese, why Pol Pot killed the educated Cambodians.

Spain has complex land issues, not the same as Ireland's, but like Ireland, limited arable lands for the population. I agree with you about dictators, country's require a greater vision than one man's need to be a control freak.

Kleo

I hadn't paid a lot of attention to the birds in the book, not that I didn't notice them, but ...

I don't know what the crows are symbolic of in China, especially red-beaked crows. The Chinese love the color red. Crows are often birds that symbolize death because they are carrion eaters. The Chinese phoenix is the symbol of immortality, brought about in Chinese culture by a good marriage. I don't know any of this very well at all.

The Chinese love birds, though. You can see this in their art. Again, this makes me think even more of the Little Seamstress as a symbol of China. Tortoises are also important in Asian art in general, more so than in most Western art it seems to me. Luo loses the keys to his home, and maybe this is symbolic of more than one man losing his home.

I think, overall, it's a sadder story when looking closer at it than it first appears.

Kleo

I think having to live one's life being afraid all the time, as it appears they did, is indeed very sad.

I know little about the sybolism of ravens in China. I do know that a great many native American stories contained ravens. One of the ways to tell the diffence between crows and ravens is that ravens walk and crows hop.

I didn't know that about walking vs hopping. Interesting! Crows and ravens do look different, though. Their beaks are certainly different. I've sure never seen a red-beaked raven, though!! It seemed so ominous in the story.

Kleo and Denjer,

Thanks for all the information about the birds of China. Like Marni I didn't know about the walking vs. hopping either. I love birds. I just don't know much about birds. I did learn a lot in the Audubon discussion.

I don't see a gloomy future for the Seamstress in the city. I do think she would probably need to face many new experiences and maybe some that were not so pleasant. That is why I listed danger.

Kleo, I didn't think of the keys being a symbol of more than one person losing their home. Wow! that would account for so many keys on the ring.

I wonder if a writer deliberately sets out to put symbols in his story or if it just happens. Maybe the symbols come from somewhere in his/her subconcious mind.

I can't remember who mentioned the idea of a third love story. The thought stayed with me. Luo's thoughts here made me think his feelings about the Seamstress had become stronger.

"...How blindly Luo trusted me! Asking this of me at the last minute was like giving me a priceless treasure for safekeeping without it even entering his head that I might make off with it myself(148)."

About symbols, as a reader I am always afraid that my thoughts are going helter skelter. Maybe in the process of loving the book and characters my mind goes somewhere the author never meant for me to go.

Hats: You mention something that I believe strongly. I think it was Kleo who also said much the same thing...that while we all read the same book, we aren't all having the same "experience." I think the really good writers know that. Since we each bring a different background/experience to everything, including reading literature, we may share some things, but we also "see" or "feel" things that others may not. I don't think that's bad/wrong/insignificant. The author may not have "seen" or "felt" what we do, but it's my view that when a book is published and sold, that book becomes whatever the reader gets from it.

Hegeso experienced life behind the Iron Curtain that many of us have never experienced. Hegeso will perhaps see things, feel things that I won't. I may be drawn/feel/see something that is significant to me that nobody else will. That, to me, is the power of literature. That's why "going somewhere the author never intended me to go" is truly what a discerning reader and good literature may be about...stretching the reader in his/her own way.

I'm not sure I'm explaining myself very well, but maybe you can figure out what I mean from that rambling.

jane

Oh, my mind goes all over the place, where authors fear to go. I figure once he or she has written it, and put it in print for the public consumption, it's mine to do with as I please.

They were ravens, not crows, eh? The two birds often have different symbology in many cultures. I am a bird-watcher (stick ball league) and never knew that ravens walk and crows hop! I have both ravens and crows in my yard, so I can't wait to see it. Their calls are very different. I had a raven and a pair of crows who lived as a three-some in my yard for a while. It was easy to see how different from each other they actually look with the three of them lining up on my fence, although I have small ravens and large crows, so size wasn't as great a help as it sometimes can be.

Denjer, I wonder this two, the process of the symbol placement, how conscious it is to the writer.

Kleo

Hmmmm, Jane, it seems we said the same thing, using different words and styles. Rambling? I think not.

Kleo

Kleo...Even posting at the same minute.

jane

Jane, I understand you perfectly. You wrote what I wanted to write and could not get it going. I like what you said here.

"That's why "going somewhere the author never intended me to go" is truly what a discerning reader and good literature may be about...stretching the reader in his/her own way."

Kleo, Rambling? I don't think so either.

"Quoth the raven 'Nevermore.'" The poem by Poe was my first exposure to ominous ravens.

I just found some interesting info about ravens on a site about the raven in Native American mythology:

"There is more to RAVEN than meets the eye. And how many of you have met the eye of a raven? They've always been associated with Godliness. Few people know that the first bird out of NOAH's ark was a raven. It just didn't return. It didn't feel the need. ODIN relies on his two ravens to fly round the world every day and keep him informed. Edgar Allan Poe's raven shrieked 'Nevermore' but what that has to do with anything only Poe knows.

In the beginning, RAVEN was first and foremost a Creator and Trickster God - especially of the Haida tribe, who claim he discovered the first humans hiding in a clam shell and brought them berries and salmon.

A bit of a tricky God himself, he's also the long-suffering victim of arch-rival in trickery, COYOTE. His brother LOGOBOLA is also a bit of a tricky customer.....Stories about him abound."

For more:

http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/native_american-mythology.php?deity=RAVEN

Marni

once he or she has written it, and put it in print for the public consumption, it's mine to do with as I please".

I wish that could be written in capital letters on the forehead of every English student. Somehow my mother, a children's librarian, managed to give me this feeling of "entitlement". The great literature that humans have produced is OURS, no one elses. We can worship it, wrap the garbage with it, or do anything in between.

Somehow, many English classes have the effect of making people scared of literature. " If you can't explain the symbolic meaning of the footnote on page 233 you're stupid and doomed!!" As a result, many very intelligent people I know are afraid to read!

Enough of that!

JOAN K, I couldn't agree with you more on your statement regarding some English teachers. I had the experience in high school in my senior year of having such a teacher. You had to agree with his interpetation or you were made to feel stupid.

The adage of "ravens walk and crows hop" I got from a museum we toured in Hazelton, B.C.a couple of years ago. The town has a great many totem poles and displays on the Tlinget Natives or as they are known in Canada, The First People. Their clans are identified by their totems which are based on birds or animals. One of the big clans was the Raven Clan. It was forbidden for a man to marry in his own clan. He must find a girl from another clan and when he did marry her he became part of her clan.

Just read all your marvelous posts again. Excellent insights!

DENJER and HATS talked about a third love story. # 8 in the header raised the possibility of a "love story" as one question to ponder. KLEO answered early on that this book is not a love story. Thank goodness we are not striving for consensus but free to conclude whatever pleases us.

As JANE just said, we do not necessarily read the same text in the same manner or interpret it in the same way. That is only natural.
And yes, it is very clear that the Narrator too is in love with the Little Seamstress; he dreams about her; both he and Luo are in high spirits because she is with them when they see another film in Yong Jing (which has electricity, not smelly oil lamps!)

"Of all the girls in the audience, and there were at least two thousand, she was certainly the prettiest. A sense of masculine pride stirred deep within us , surrounded as we were by the jealous looks of the other men in the crowd. About half way into the film, she turned to me and whispered in my ear. Her words pierced my heart.
'It's so much better when it's you telling the story.' " pp. 85-86

From all these observations the reader knows that affection involved all three (and passionate love at least two of them).

MARNI, HATS, DENJER, the subject of symbolism in myth, folklore, art and especially in literature is a fascinating field. I'd love to get into signs and symbols in literature, if we have time to spare after the conclusion of the discussion.

Yes, DENJER, writers often use symbols to get across a meaning more subtly than ordinary words do; and they do it deliberately. I believe that is true in this book, especially with the red-beaked ravens.
In many areas of the world, including Europe, ravens are believed to be harbingers of some misfortune, sometimes death. I believe that here in Balzac they are portents of danger, at the very least, and the Narrator subconsciously believed it -- hence his nightmares.

It may be recalled that ancient symbols were of great importance also in the second book we read in RATW about New Zealand and the Maori population, some of them alien and incomprehensible to readers of our group.

Plot development, form, structure, philosophical ideas, social issues etc. ALL count in reading and evaluating a book (but it's too early for me to evaluate), but we ought not to overlook how a book is written . And there Dai Sijie shines, IMHO. Take pg. 86, for example:

" ... we were content to watch her lovely face bathed in the luminous colours off the screen. Now and then everything would go dark and her eyes would shine like spots of phosphorous in the gloom. ..." or
"Once again I watched the Little Seamstress's face with fascination. She was breath-taking, as she had been the night before in the open-air cinema. But now that she was laughing I was so utterly captivated that I wanted to marry her there and then, regardless of her being Luo's girlfriend. In her peals of laughter I caught the musky fragrance of wild orchids, stronger than the scent of the flowers lying at her feet." pg. 93.

That is masterful writing, and there are countless other lyrical gems like this, and different shadings in the prose as well. The author's ending of the chapters (all untitled) is also very much worth noting, as is the very subtle ironic undertone in the brief dialogue with F.E.'s mother ("Your son's an incredible expert on folk songs." and how he baits her: "... You give him plenty of books to read." The idea of stealing the books came from the little Seamstress, BTW = last sentence of chapter on pg. 93.

More tomorrow.

Denjer-- Thanks for bringing up the totems. I loved growing up in the Pacific Northwest and seeing the native cultures all around, especially in the highly stylized animal art. Almost all of my t-shirts have Pacific Coastal Indian art on the front.

Yes, it's true, I don't see this book as a love story. And the more we discuss it, the stronger my first impression becomes. It seems to me "masterful writing" that sends so many minds going so many different directions plays to another somewhat more powerful genre in literature. But this waits for the end of the book. Because love stories are fairy tales with happy endings, and I have to wait for the ending to tell if it is a love story or not.

The author is obviously very well versed in literary styles, and understands Balzac's place in the French literary tradition making society itself a character in his novels, a force to recon with. What happens in a society run amok under the tyranny of one man, trying to destroy everything, literature, art, beauty, love? The Chinese under Mao can't read literature or poetry, they're punished for saying what they do (fix teeth), they're too tired for beauty, and forbidden young love. Is this natural? What is it Mao is trying to kill, anyway?

I see the love stories in this book, the infatuations, the lusts, the loves of life, but I still don't see Seamstress as a love story, because I think the Little Seamstress is a symbol of China, and not a happy one.

Did the Silk Road mostly bypass this area of China? I love the history of fabrics, but can't tie ancient studies of the Silk Road into this area of China. It seems an impractical route, through these mountains, again where geography would help some. One more way this part of China and this book stay so foreign. What part did this area of China play in silk manufacturing? Where are the mulberry trees from, the silk moths from?

Kleo

Re: "Because love stories are fairy tales with happy endings..."

Who said love stories are fairy tales with happy endings? I've never heard that one. I've read plenty of love stories that end tragically. I think more end tragically than happily, now that I think about it. Just take Romeo and Juliet for one.

Marni

I said it Marni.

Romeo and Juliet is a tragedy, not just a love story, but Romeo and Juliet is overwhelmingly about love between Romeo and Juliet. I don't think that Seamstress is overwhelmingly about the love between any two of the 3 characters, the Seamstress, Luo or the narrator, as none of them are overwhelmed to the sake of all else by their love for each other. The Seamstress does not pine away over Luo's sickness with malaria, Luo does not whither to nothingness in the absence of the seamstress, the narrator does not, either. To me, their true love is not for the Seamstress, nor is the story really about their true love.

So, is Romeo and Juliet a love story? Well, I'm willing to argue that one, too, but there's not enough space here. To me a love is story is first overwhelmingly about love, but second it has a happy ending, because if it does not end happily, it's a tragedy, and that's what is taken away, in the end, not the love, but the tragedy. Seamstress doesn't meat the first part, imo, as it the love the characters have for each other in any love story aspect of it, does not overpower.

Kleo

KLEO reminded me of something. I forget how big a country China is, and (I presume) how varied. To these villagers, who rarely go as far as the next town, the silk culture could be as far away as the moon. And their lives could seem as foreign to someone from a different part of China as they do to us.

I think a love story can end tragically too. A love story doesn't need an happy ending. I think Romeo and Juliet is a magnificent and unforgettable love story. It involves subplots like family feuds and such. Still, it's a love story. Abelard and Heloise is a love story. It ended tragically.

The importance of Chinese history is not lost because of the involvement of passion and love. The love between the characters gives greater insight into the obstacles faced during that time: the fear of pregnancy, the age limit for marriage, etc.

By looking at the passion each character felt for the other character I could see clearer the Chinese culture. For example, the Chinese have a love of natural beauty. Traude in her wonderful post gave one example. The quote she gives mentions "wild orchids."

"I caught the musky fragrance of wild orchids, stronger than the scent of the flowers lying at her feet."

Then, there is the mention of ginkgo. I think Kleo mentioned the ginkgo leaves and gave a link too.

"They're the leaves of a ginkgo tree...She was a virgin, and her blood dripped onto the leaves scattered underneath....the carpet of buttefly leaves."

"Her tiny figure is like a fruit growing at the top of a {ginkgo} tree.

During Luo and the Seamstress time swimming, the author writes a great deal about the shape and look of stones.

"There were stones on the bottom,...some of them were small and smooth, like pale eggs...there were some with strangely jutting curves like buffalo horns." Then, there is the Balsam.

"...gave me more intimate access to the female realm. Balsam...it's a common plant you find in florists' shops or growing in window boxes...The balsam flower was the imperial emblem of Phoenix mountain, for in the shape of its showy petals and spur one can see the head, wings, feet and even the tail feathers of that mythical bird."

The last one I will list is about the balsam flowers again.

"After rinsing the Little Seamstress's fingers in a wooden basin he lovingly applied the thick juice of crushed balsam flowers to each of her nails in turn...I longed to ask if I might kiss her red nails when I returned the next day..."

For me the author interweaved the passion of love with his love for the nature in China. It's like human love can not succeed without the presence of natural beauty. Perhaps, nature's beauty makes love more sacred.

I am ashamed. My post is too long. I do get overly enthusiastic about a book written so beautifully.

HATS: that was a wonderful post. You have really captured the poetry of this book.

Here I sit reading when I should be getting ready for the appointment.
Can't help it - wonderful posts, HATS, JOANK. Don't have time now to respond/react, but, KLEO, since when is a love story a love story only when it has a happy end ? I never heard that dictum before.

What about Camille and Anna Karenina?

HATS, no, no, not too long !!! Emphatically not. Beautifully put. That's the idea !

Later--------

Hats: Your post #196 was so beautiful. Thank you. I loved when you said, "Perhaps, nature's beauty makes love more sacred."

Marni

HATS, your post #196 was not too long and it agreed very much with the way I felt. I did feel this contained a love story within the frame of what was possible at the time.

Denjer, I think all of us felt the same way:Traude, JoanK, Marni and some others. I guess everybody looks at it in a different way. This is what Jane and I mentioned in another post.

I just love the beauty of the author's writing.

MARNI, DENJER, HATS, thank you for your last posts.

In re the "questions to ponder" in the heading:

In # 41, KLEO had bemoaned the fact that there was little prediscussion in this folder in December, and that reader participation in the prediscussion might indicate interest, she thought, about the topic and s study in depth thereof. Her fear that there might BE no interest proved luckily unfounded.
Questions in a header are intended as talking points. As for the Silk Road, I believe that educated Chinese, even Mao himself, learned and knew about it as a matter of national pride.

http://www.imperialtours.net/silk_road.htm

Clearly"Balzac" is not as "deep" or "involved" as some of the books we have discussed in B&L, and specifically here in RATW: for example "The Bone People" by Keri Hulme and Umberto Eco's "The Mysterious Flame of Queen Loana". But that does not mean "Balzac" book is without merit!

I never hammer home a point, nor do I claim to be unequivocally right. No one is, quite simply. In this book particularly I am following the chronological course of the plot so that we may be aware of nuances or meanings we may not have noticed the first, or even the second, time around. When a book yields new insight or deeper understanding on subsequent readings, it has been worth it, IMHO.

I do not categorically declare that this is a love story, or a coming-of-age story (though it could be classified as such), but I believe that Alexander Dumas Fils conceived his "La dame aux camélies", filmed as "Camille", as a love story, ditto for Leo Tolstoy and his "Anna Karenina". Neither novel had a happy ending. And what about "Gone with The Wind" ??

By the end of Part II Luo and the Narrator have succeeded in stealing the fine suitcase with the precious books - thanks to word-of-mouth information through the Little Seamstress about every detail of the planned festivities. The description of the events is not without comic effects, albeit a bit (too) graphic. Yet, isn't it astounding that in anno domini 1973 people in this remote area still believed in sorceresses and their power, or that drinking the blood of a dead buffalo would change a person from a coward into a brave man?

Part III begins with a period of relative calm. F.E. has left the mountain without denouncing Luo and the Narrator; the village Headman is attending a Communist conference; Luo and the Narrator stopped going to work in the fields, without the slightest objection from the villagers - themselves unwilling converts from opium growers to guardians of the young men's souls.(pg. 116).

Luo concentrates on Balzac and makes a daily trek to the house of the Little Seamstress, the "lovely mountain girl in need of culture" (pg. 115), his inconscpicuous, work-worn bamboo hod filled with books. The Narrator discovers Romain Rolland and his "Jean-Christophe". That deserves a few words tomorrow.

The role of Chinese women in all stages of silk production is movingly portrayed in the following novels by contemporary Californian author Gail Tsukiyama, daughter of a Chinese mother and Japanese father, who lives and has taught in the S.F. area

The Language of Threads
Women of the Silk
Night of Many Dreams.

Young girls, abandoned by their families, or simply handed over because it was one less mouth to feed, were sent to "silk houses" and many spent their entire lives there.

Yes, not too long at all, Hats. What would you have cut out? I would have missed it.

Ginkgo biloba is an interesting plant in too many ways to mention. It is a living fossil, a seed plant that looks a bit like flowering plants, maybe an Aspen tree from a distance, especially the beautiful way the leaves turn yellow. But, it's a very distant relative from poplars and other flowering plants, having lived on the earth for 270 million years. Many naturalists think it is only available in cultivation. The ginkgo appears to be mutate very little, and 3 ginkgos less than 1 mile from ground zero of the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima are still alive today.

Japanese Ginkgos

I assume by balsam, the author means Impatiens of the Balsam family. I couldn't find a Chinese red one, but I found a great picture of a white one:

Impatiens/Phoenix

I love this about the Internet, searches for pictures of things on the Web that I want to look at now--although I probably have plenty of pictures of impatiens in books.

I love what you say at the end, Hats:

"For me the author interweaved the passion of love with his love for the nature in China. It's like human love can not succeed without the presence of natural beauty. Perhaps, nature's beauty makes love more sacred."

So, is it a love story? Well, I agree with everything Hats says. But, to me, a love story is primarily a love story, and I don't see this book, no matter how many love stories it contains, as a love story. Anna Karenina is primarily about love, as is Camille, the characters in these books and in Romeo and Juliet do not go on with their lives, do not go off to the big city in search of something else, they pine away for their love.

Happy ending? Heck no, but all very different stories from Seamstress, where people do not waste away because of their undying love for others. Luo lets the Seamstress go, as does the narrator. The Seamstress does not see her life as unworthy without her love. The Seamstress does not die in the arms of her lover, fake her death to abandon her family for her lover, or kill herself in despair over her lover.

I call these stories tragedies, as do quite a few other folk, if having heard it before has bearing. If I could call them one genre only, I would call them all tragedies before I would call any of them a love story. But I will grant they are all love stories in a way that Seamstress is not. Most novels do contain love stories, or love interests. I think, though, this novel is not about the love interests primarily. For me a love story has a happy ending, otherwise it is a tragedy.

Kleo

Re: "Luo lets the Seamstress go, as does the narrator."

We really don't know if either one of them are able to let her go - at least mentally. It is because the book ends so abruptly. I thought this was very important. The seamstress runs off, after telling Luo what she learned from Balzac. Luo repeated these words to the narrator and that was the last thing in the book. End.

What was your reaction to this?

Gee, I've read Anna Karenina four times, and it never occurred to me to call it a love story!!

I was watching a NOVA nature program on PBS last night, and there was a raven. So I watched it closely. Sometimes it walked and sometimes it hopped!

Traude and Kleo, thank you for the those facts and links. Those just add sugar and spice to the discussion. Whether it is a love story or not is secondary to me. In the end to come away with the facts I have learned about a country and culture is of primary importance.

I have spanked my hands more than once for missing 'The Bone People' and the Umberto Eco book. I intend to read both books in the future with the help of the archives. Then, I will still have the chance to read the group's thoughts. Also, in case there is something in the book I don't understand the comments of others will help me.

I do not think Balzac and the Little Mistress is great literature. Of course, I do not have the merit to argue that point. I just think there is a lot in a small book. Seniornet always chooses books with quality. This is just one more of those books.

The fact that the Chinese lost their right to learn about music and could not read books in the Cultural Revolution is why, I think, the author spent so much time writing about such people as Mozart, Dumas and Balzac.

I keep wondering why the author spent so much time writing about nature. There is a lot about nature in the book. Kleo in the very beginning included links about the natural world in China. Maybe there is more than one reason why he wrote so much about leaves, flowers, stones, Ravens, mountains, etc. Could the natural world typify freedom, the freedom that Luo, the narrator and the Seamstress wanted so badly? Could the author have used the natural world to express why he missed his own country?

Traude, I have all three of the Gail Tsukiyama books you mentioned. Thank you for putting the series in order. Now her name I can spell.

I have one more question. What qualifies a book discussion as worthy? Is it the number of people who interact in the group? Is it something else?

I will tell a personal secret. Since it is a secret, no one, I hope, will discuss it during the book discussion. Maybe others feel this way too. I always feel that if I sign up for a discussion no one else will sign up or talk about the book. Maybe because they can comprehend my lack of knowledge. Maybe I post too much.

Whatever the reason, I continue to enjoy Books at Seniornet. It is my very favorite place.

JoanK, are you there? If you are, thanks for keeping me company at night and encouraging me with your kind words. I think it's the spaces in between that make a post long. Well, that's my excuse.

I did hear, a long time ago, one of the DL's express the need for posters to separate their lines. I think because it helps people to see the words better. I can't see well. Words can blend together and end up looking like black soup peppered with white salt.

Thank goodness Kleo's post is long too.

Good night!

"I do not think Balzac and the Little Mistress is great literature. Of course, I do not have the merit to argue that point." Hats

Of course you do.

Joan, my take on love stories seems to be more like yours than others. Still, Anna Karenina throws her entire life away for love. I've read War and Peace many times, but Anna Karenina is always a struggle because of this.

Marni, yes, we really don't know, but if their love for her were all consuming, we would know. And the author does not give us this, that their love consumes them.

Kleo

Marni: My reaction was wondering if the author is considering a sequel...either of the Seamstress's life after the mountain or what happens to the "boys" or perhaps both...parallel lives/events, etc. sort of thing. It seemed to end as so many novels do that do then have sequels.

Hats: How did you know my secret?

I hate the word "worthy" when used for a book discussion. My initial reaction is how dare somebody not participating rate my experience!

And, for those who do participate, "worthy" is only a personal experience. Your experience can be judged by you as "worthy" or not...but it has nothing to do with my experience. I'm enjoying this discussion and the seeing other points of view very, very much. In fact, it's one of the most enjoyable book discussions for me that I've had at SeniorNet.

I, too, appreciate those who can break their messages with line breaks. These old eyes can read it much easier than one long paragraph or sentences after sentences after sentences without a break. My old eyes just glaze over when I see those messages and my mind goes "awandering."

jane

Sorry to join you late this evening. Encouraged by the "spring in January" weather - unheard of in notoriously frosty New England - I ran more errands than I have in some time and felt the effect. I read the latest posts this morning before I had time to respond. Now I do.

Thank you, JANE, thanks to all of you for the sentiments you have expressed and for your being here with me. Your pleasure is mine, manifold.

HATS, when I saw your question this morning about what makes a discussion worthy, my first thought was why, of course the very effort of undertaking it makes it worthy.
I've thought about this all day, and the answer may be a little more complicated than that. But I agree with JANE that the word "worthy" sounds judgmental, and that is one thing - being judgmental - we are most definitely NOT here.

In our discussions we share opinions, exchange and listen to other viewpoints/perspectives - some of them daring, perhaps - but NO ONE opinion is proclaimed "right" to the exclusion of any others, nor should there be prolonged debate over that.

A discussion leader, as I see the role, is a moderator and as such has the facility, and the responsibility, to frame the discussion, nurture it 24/7 and- in the interest of time constraints- avoid branching out too far into tangents. To me, the job is hard work but, above all, a labor of love and worth every minute of time. The benefits should be mutual, and that represents a good discussion, a worthy discussion, if you will.

to be continued

Do we really have to decide whether "Balzac" is great literature or not? Aren't we here to discuss the book and enjoy what it has to offer? Perhaps only subsequent generations can decide what is really "great", and even then opinions can be divided.
KLEO, this may be heresy to you, but (dare I even SAY THIS) I have never cared for Hemingway at any time, not when I first read him in German, nor afterwards, and I have studied him extensively.

"Balzac" is straightforward; there is no need to dissect every sentence on every page to decipher oblique meanings. Here the reader ought to (sorry if that sounds imperative!) take in the whole picture as offered to get the full flavor. In RATW we do not HAVE to approve of protagonists or espouse any of their theories; we read for our own enlightenment, for information about the world outside our own as reflected in the respective literature, to see what traits, wants, desires etc. we share that are universal. Please correct me if I am wrong.

JANE, I am so very pleased to have read your posts here and grateful for your active participation. Mor tomorrow.

Ah, Traude, I have spent far too many years completely dismissing Hemingway to challenge anyone not caring for him. In my latest adventure I embarked fully expecting to continue my own tradition.

It was only by reading The Sun also Rises (and it has to be read in English, imo, and according to a Dutch reader who read part in German, German won't do) and discussing it with the most amazing group of women I have ever met that I was able to find the power of Hemingway and what gets people so devoted to him.

Heresy? To form one's own opinion of a novel or author? I'd be the last one to proclaim that heresy in anyone else. I read for myself, and I discuss solely to enhance my own experience. It's one area in life where being totally greedy and self-centered can give you far more than you should expect under the circumstances.

Oh, and I learned the most about Hemingway and found my own respect for him from the woman in the group whose opinions I disagreed with the most. She challenged me on everything I saw in the book (TSAR), and, in the end, I realized I saw even more than I thought, because of her challenges to my vision.

I'm good to go, though, with folks deciding whether something is great literature or not and why, the why being the interesting part. This is a discussion we had recently on the Hemingway List-Serve, who is writing today, and will be remembered for many tomorrows, lots of foreign authors mentioned, few Americans at first.

Kleo

I feel kind of guilty popping in here now, after so long, but have been following all you wonderful posts and gaining much insight into the novel. Let's just say these past few weeks have been "chopped up" without much time at home to either contemplate or get things done.

Kleo, in your post 192, I found your statement about the author's style to be most helpful --" The author is obviously very well versed in literary styles, and understands Balzac's place in the French literary tradition making society itself a character in his novels, a force to recon with." It makes sense then to see this Cultural Revolution era of CHina as a character.

Also, I agree with those of you who say this is not a love story. Love interests, yes, young love, yes, but not all-consuming love. And it's not because it doesn't have a happy ending. I'm not well-read enough to say give an example of a love story -- perhaps "The gift of the Magi." Today (I may change my mind) I'll say I think this is the story of a tragic era, although the author does not make it appear tragic -- his touch is lighter; it is living history, and it is the story of friendship.

Pedln, this is one my favorite stories of all time. I love also "The Ransom of Little Chief," often in the same collection. O. Henry is such a master of the short story. An ironic ending, but not a sad one in spite of the lack of immediate happiness. What a love story, though, compared to the often juvenile tantrums popular today (not speaking of Seamstress at all with this remark).

Kleo

Thank you, KLEO and PEDLN.
Fortunately we do not have to decide right now whether this book is, or is not, a love story, or why not. OR WHAT a love story IS.
By the way, would "contains" have been a better choice of verb than "is" in my question # 8 ? Well, let's not get mired in semantics.

"Balzac and the Little Seamstress" is, among other things, a book about books and their incalculable influence on its characters. Of course Balzac and swash-buckling Alexandre Dumas would appeal to the imagination of these young men (later the Seamstress's father). But I was both surprised and glad that Romain Rolland's Jean-Christophe was part of the forbidden treasure.

Romain Rolland (1866-1944) was of a later generation and a novelist different from Balzac and Dumas. He was also an essayist; advocated a new form of French drama and wrote twenty plays himself; was professor of music at the Sorbonne from 1900 to 1912; and published several works on music, among them "L'histoire de l'opéra en Europe avant Lulli et Scarlatt" (1895) = The History of European opera before Lulli and Scarlatti - just to give you an idea of the amazing range of this man -- a life-long pacifist, BTW.

His masterwork is Jean-Christophe which comprises ten (10) volumes. It is gratifying to learn from Dai Sijie's book that Jean-Christophe had been translated into Chinese and was available - until suppressed. The Narrator, more cerebral than Luo I think, was completely taken with this massive work (which he had only intended to "skim read") and with the idealism of the author.

The hero of the novel, Jean-Christophe Kraft, is a Geman-born musician who travels through France and Germany observing and lamenting contemporary civilization. A satire on the society of Rolland's time, the novel also presents a sensitive analysis of an artist's isolated position in the world. Through the voice of his musician hero Rolland proposes that the purpose of art is to express moral truth and thereby combat the disintegration of values.

Clearly, we have been at this juncture before ! How much more modern could this possibly sound?

to be continued

HATS: thank you for your thank you. For a change I fell asleep early last night, but there will be many more late nights I'm sure. I'm delighted to share them with a good friend.

Hi JoanK, what a nice message to wake up too.

Truade, thank you for telling about Jean Christophe by Romain Rolland. Ten volumes?? This is my first time hearing about this author or the book. I love reading books about books. I get the chance to learn about many new authors and their books. It is also fun to read about other bibliophiles.

Traude, the line that you wrote about Mr. Rolland's book struck me.

"Through the voice of his musician hero Rolland proposes that the purpose of art is to express moral truth and thereby combat the disintegration of values."

I have more than once thought about why the arts are so meaningful in our lives. Without, books, good music, dances like ballet our lives would feel bland, hopeless, dark. Art touches the inner core of our soul. It gives us the permission to feel. Art also makes us aware that others identify with us. That a stranger can express our feelings is magical. Art can reach childhood memories, homesickness and the joyous experiences of life too like marriage, family, the continued health of a friend, the beauty of another place and time. Art also makes us aware that other people, no matter from what country, no matter their ethnicity, feel sadness, happiness, anger, jealousy too.

I have heard a part of Madame Butterfly. When I was a teenager, my nephew would play one single song in that opera over and over again. When he would play that song my heart would almost stand still. The beauty of that piece in the opera is overwhelming. I think Madame Butterfly is a Japanese opera. I am not sure. I just remember being touched deeply by that particular part of the opera which proves art can remove cultural barriers.

Thinking of art as having the power to hold our values, morals intact is a tremendous thought. Is that to say without art the characters in Balzac might have sunk to the level of their dictactors?

With the influence of art their way to remain humane remains steadfast. Perhaps, their moral upbringing, from their parents, was not forgotten because the books read during their cultural captivity brought back suppressed truths of their earlier lives at home.

I can not remember whether the name of the Mozart piece of music is mentioned in Balzac.

Madame Butterfly by Puccini is sung in Italian, when done in the original. But it is indeed set in Japan, in Nagasaki!
It is one of my five favorite operas, and a choice for what-to-take-along to an island;
does anyone remember the game of making those choices? You pick 5 books and 5 pieces of music, or so.

Thanks to everyone for all your fine comments.
I'll try to chime in more often, now that I'm somewhat caught up in Latin ... for the moment.

May I interrupt for a moment with just a reminder about RATW?

Read Around the World is gearing up for its March selection, with a schedule of nominations and voting. Come join us at RATW to see what's coming up.

Read Around the World

Nominations -- January 19 through 25

Voting -- January 26 through 30

Winner announced -- January 31

Also, there will be two runnerups on the ballot since these two titles tied for second place in the vote for the October selection.

Persepolis by Marjane Satrapi [Iran]
The Farming of the Bones by Edwidge Danticat.[Haiti]

Oh, Puccini is my favorite composer of operas. His music, particularly his arias, bring tears to my eyes. Oh, "Un Bel Dí" from Madame Butterfly!

The Hartford Opera performed Turandot and Madame Butterfly, both by Puccini, in the past several years when my husband and I were lucky to have excellent seats with our season tickets. Oh, I just loved it. And even my husband, who is not an opera lover, loved Puccini. His favorite aria is "Nessun Dorma" from Turandot. I downloaded a bunch of different versions of "Nessun Dorma" and burned them onto a CD for my husband who listens to them when we travel in the jeep.

Unfortunately, my husband got tired of going to the opera and I couldn't find anyone willing to pay for his season ticket to go with me. Also, the funding for the opera was drying up and the opera company had to keep cutting back on its productions. Oh, well. I enjoyed it while it lasted.

Although the opera is by Puccini, it is based on a book and drama by Americans, rewritten in the Italian libretto to appeal to European anti-American sentiments of the early 20th century. It's premier at La Scala was a copmlete flop, it was rewritten a bit, performed again elsewhere in Italy to great fanfare, then brought to America soon afterwards, also to great fanfare. The author of the book Madame Butterfly is Jonh Luther Long, who had never been to Japan, and the playwright is David Belasco. The libretto is by Luigi Illica and Guiseppe Giacosa, both of whom also wrote Puccini's librettos for La bohème, Tosca.

Fact checked at a zillion little sources for accurate spelling, of course!

Kleo

HATS: "that a stranger can express our feelings is magical".

How well you put it. That is exactly the way I feel.

If you're interested in other history, the proposal for "Founding Mothers" has just gone up. I will be helping Marni lead this book of stories about the women who influenced the founding fathers.

FOUNDING MOTHERS

Thank you for the very interesting last posts touching on opera.

KLEO, I have never heard that Madame Butterfly "appealed to European Anti-American sentiments of the early 20th century." and have had no such personal experience while I lived in Europe. What authority made that claim, I wonder?

The author of the book (before Puccini picked up the idea) was one John Luther Long, as you said. He was born in Hanover, Pennsylvania. HE may not have been in Japan but his sister lived there with her husband, a missionary. Do we assume then that Long wrote the story to disparage his own country ?

I have a problem with some information available on the web: anybody can post anything (and has), more often than not without a name, entity, without proper attribution, and without even the year (let alone day and month) of such posts.
Not all that glitters is gold and not all that is shown on the web is certifiably accurate, IMHO.

No, what I said was it was "rewritten in the Italian libretto to appeal to European anti-American sentiments of the early 20th century." The book does not, that I know of, contain anti-American sentiments, however parts of the book have been rewritten IN the Italian libretto to appeal to European audiences of the early part of the twentieth century concerned with issues that were not real to the opera, the play, or the underlying drama composed by the author. This is MY personal opinion about the opera, the book, and the history of the times, although this opinion is rather common about Madame Butterfly.

If this was only a quote from a source on the web, rather than something I have considered, I would have attributed it to someone, even if they were not the primary source.

Puccini and Illica and Giacosa fully credit John Luther Long, they don't claim to have "picked up the idea."

My brother lived in Korea and Belgium. I don't think it gives me any special knowledge of the countries. Most of my siblings have lived in Germany. Ditto, not much special knowledge. I just think it is interesting that he chose to write a book about a topic he did not know first hand, that others have found so much interest in. So much for write what you know, imo.

The Internet is worthless as a resource in too many ways to enumerate. Yes.

Kleo

What is great literature? I think it is not only a question of taste. Nobody would say that, for instance, "War and Peace", Shakespeare plays, the great Greek tragedies, etc. etc. are not great. I don't think it necessary to give more examples. However, it is not only the "great" which are worth reading.

For my own use, I judge (is this expression to be avoided?) a book by the time I stay under its influence. Some books have stayed with me from my early youth until my advanced age. I am not sure The Little Seamstress will accompany me for several years, but it was still worth reading.

And what is a 'love story'? I wouldn't like a book that is only about love and nothing else. Anna Karenina is definitely much more than that, and if I may risk to say, so is Romeo and Juliet. But books completely without love are anaemic.

And there are so many different kinds of love! It is difficult, and IMHO, unnecessary to stick to categories.

HEGESO, I agree somewhat with your statement "... I judge a book by the time I stay under its influence." I have noticed that how much influence a book has on a person also relates to the state of mind the person is in while reading the book. I find books to be less influential as I age and I wonder if that is because I am reading more of them and it becomes harder to separate them all in my memory? Is it because I am becoming more picky?

What does IMHO mean?

Alina,

IMHO means "In My Humble Opinion."

Denjer,

Maybe there's less to influence? The other books got there first, after all.

Kleo

Kleo P

Thanks for the info.

As for how we may interpret this book differently, when I traveled with a friend on several trips, we would compare notes after we got home. It was amazing what she remembered and what I had forgotten or never knew and vice versa. This would be within a week or two of returning. Sometimes we wondered if we had been on the same trip.

I definitely think the author intended to put the symbolism in just as they do in the movies.

Jane-your explanation of the book is wonderful. Thank you!!!

Denjer ~
I do agree with you. I'm much less enthusiastic about books with far-fetched romantic sub-plots
than I used to be.
But our seamstress gives a certain mystery and poignancy to this book, above and beyond any
girl-meets-boy plot.

When any novel makes you wonder what happened after the end of the book, that's a big plus, IMO

Thank you for your posts, HEGESO, KLEO, ALINA, DENJER and MIPPY. Your points are well taken. We don't really need to categorize or 'label' a book.

DENJER, over time we may find certain kinds of books more (or less) attractive, stimulating, interesting (or whatever) because our perspectives change, we ourselves change. An old Latin adage says "Times change and we change with them" - for the Latin students among you that is Tempora mutantur et nos mutamur in illis.

The slow scene-setting, contemplative narrative in Part I reminded some of you of a fairy tale; that is a good analogy. In Part II the tempo of the narrative events quickens, by comparison. At first Part III appears to adhere to the same course --- but for the sudden interspersion of personal first-person accounts: The Old Miller's Story; Luo's Story; the Little Seamstress's Story. Odd at fist glance? or perhaps oddly necessary ?

The last two chapters of Part III and the book are in stark contrast to the lyrical beauty of those three separate stories.
A wondrous summer has ended, grim reality can no longer be ignored. Action must be taken. A happy outcome is impossible in a system where people can't legally marry before they are twenty-five years old.

Luo is away on a month's emergency leave, the Narrator must seek the only feasible resolution of the Little Seamstress's dilemma - at enormous risk to all concerned.

On his return to the mountain, Luo is overjoyed to discover the emancipation of the Little Seamstress -- his own accomplishment, she is his creation he proudly believes, and to an extent she is.
No one, not Luo, not the Narrator, not the father, has any idea of her plan, despite some very dramatic changes in her appearance, or how final her plan is. When the father tells the young men that she has gone off, the young men run after and manage to stop her temporarily but, undeterred, she leaves them both behind.

We can assume that the book was written years after the events. Part III plays a special role, I submit :

It typefies an era, I believe, specifically the era of re-education, and how the people lived at that time -- in constant fear, in poverty, deprivation, forced ignorance, clinging to old superstitions, in sum
= archetypes like the villagers; the headman; the sorceresses; the patients in the grimy waiting rooms and on the ward; the harried doctor who performs different duties on different days = a physician for all seasons and all specialties; the disgraced preacher turned street sweeper who dies unredeemed; the sympathizers and the sycophants; those who bowed and scraped to survive. They were Every Man, Every Woman - could that be why they had no name, except Luo ? (but why he?)

Questions remain: e.g. did the Narrator ever tell Luo about the abortion? What happened to Luo ? Was he re-educated ? We can guess that the Narrator survived, and we can speculate about the fate of the Little Seamstress.

But here is the spectacular disappointment : the lovely unsophisticated mountain girl has been transformed in to a stylish sensual young woman with short hair, a mannish jacket and white sneakers who - after months of total immersion in Balzac - remembers only this

"A woman's beauty is a treasure beyond price."

Is that all there is ???

What are your thoughts on Part III ?

I think the Seamstress's memory of this quotation gives an idea of what she will choose to do in her "new" life. There are two ways, I see, of reading these particular words by Balzac.

These words can mean a woman's only gift is her beauty. Without beauty she is useless. That's pretty pessimistic and degrading. Though many women, then and today, buy into this way of thinking.

The Seamstress came from such a rigid society. She never had the chance to play with a tube of lipstick, shape her hair in different styles. She never had the chance to go to a school dance . She missed so much. What she missed could have made her choose beauty as her one and only tool out of poverty.

I can read the same words to mean a woman must treat her beauty with care. Our faces can become marred with the lifestyle we have chosen to live in the past. In this case Balzac's words become an admonition. It is hoped the Seamstress used these words as a warning. Gaining more knowledge might have become her way of escape. It is hoped she bettered her skills as a seamstress and opened a business.

I think the red shoes on the cover prove she met with success. How she got there I do not know.

RE:"...those who bowed and scraped to survive. They were Every Man, Every Woman - could that be why they had no name, except Luo ?..."

Traude, that reason made me look up and take notice. I never thought of that reason. Now it seems so obvious and perfectly sensible.

The above quote is what Traude wrote in the last post.

Hats, I would rather believe that that is what the Little Seamstress meant by "A woman's beauty is a treasure beyond price."

Hi Denjer, I hope so too.

Hats, I think your second interpretation of the closing sentence comes closer than the first. My first thoughts were to add to the quote "A woman's beauty is a treasure beyond price" -- and one must encourage and protect it.

Perhaps the little seamstress included inner beauty as well in her interpretation. I've never read Balzac, so I don't know what he intended, but the Little Seamstress was moved enough by his writings to completely change her life -- much like our narrator used the character Jean-Christophe to embolden himself.

Traude, thank you for the information about Romain Rolland. When I first read his name in our book I gave little thought as to whether he was a real or fictional author.

Your reactions, HATS, DENJER and PEDLN, are much appreciated.

I had intended to elaborate on my theory/supposition that the nameless people in our book are archetypes, Everyman representations, but I spent the entire afternoon at the doctor's office instead and, moreover, now have to face the fact that the total replacement of my right shoulder is inevitable. Please give me a day to work on that.

Yes, PEDLN, the authors named in "Balzac" are all classics, none of the names are fictitious.

This line just struck me as so shallow, the why of my prediction of a gloomy future for the Little Seamstress. Physical beauty as a treasure beyond price? It's so subjective. What about the half billion women in China who aren't Little Seamstresses? What about people who suffer disfigurements like the woman in France who got the partial face transplant, burn victims, crime victims, people with Epidermolysa bullosa, kids with cleft palates, disfiguring scars from the days of smallpox or simply those who don't measure up to today's standard of beauty or can't afford to be a la mode?

The author Balzac is not so shallow as I see this, and I don't think that Dai is either.

Leaving all of tradition behind and family behind as if all of history is just something to spit upon is the communist way, not necessarily the wave of a wonderful future.

Kleo

KLEO, I don't believe I said anything about physical beauty. A woman is beautiful is so many more ways than just her physical attributes. PEDIN mentioned her inner beauty which I believe to be much more important. Perhaps the relationship she had with Luo and the narrator in combination with the books they exposed her too awakened this inner beauty. Leaving behind this gloomy day to day existence and going to the big city is really not so much differenct then young people in our country migrating from the small towns and farms to live in the nearest big city.

There is irony in the narrator and Luo being re-educated and her re-education the opposite way.

Denjer: I like your point about the irony. I hadn't thought of that.

Marni

MARNI, DENJER, that is the ultimate irony in a book that has several instances of same, and I had pointed out others in an earlier post, which I cannot now find. I had also pointed out the undertone of subtle irony, for example in the Narrator's exchange with Four-Eyes mother.

This is a quiet book, "quiet" compared to enduring blockbusters like "The Da Vinci Code", or hugely revelatory memoirs. "Balzac" is neither "big" nor long. It is a perfect distillation in sparse language of the human condition of a specific time and place, and a situation that people in this cuntry have never experienced : millions of people forced by one man to live and function within stifling narrow limits - or suffer the consequences.

The flight of the Little Seamstress was much more than an act of youthful rebellion and a search for a better life - which we could readily understand. She was young, beautiful and a talented seamstress, essential and helpful attributes of a woman. But what were her chances in the city, really ? More important is the question, what choices did she really have? She was imbued with the new vistas presented in Balzac's novels

What are the clues to the Little Seamstress's inner beauty, though? We have a physical description of her trumping her mental attributes, all the men of the town are stunned by her beauty, not by her kindness in treating malaria. We get a description of how she changed her physical appearance, not any inward reflections she had. In fact, the author clues us in by not giving us any, she doesn't discuss her departure with anyone--this is a childish act, a running away, a cutting of ties. A mature person, someone with inner beauty, someone who realizes others care about her, doesn't just run off without a word, but with a brand new look. I think that if the author gives you one thing obvious, a description of the new look, and the fact of her abandoning everyone without a word, to find that he meant the opposite, that in fact it was her inner beauty shining to all, is not credible.

The Little Seamstress is talking about the power of her outer beauty, the physical appearance she put so much into in her preparation for running away to the big city, while she ignored what people with true inner beauty have: character that acknowledges other human beings.

Kleo

Did she have any choices? Good question.

Kleo

Remaining focused on what happened to the Seamstress at the end of the book, her escape from the mountains seems, to me, fruitless or at least, a waste of important time. The main idea of the novel is the Cultural Revolution, the reeducation of the Chinese people. I think Dai Sijie gave specific boundaries: a time, the place, the people. While we are trying to guess what happened to the Seamstress aren't we missing the point? Have we fully discovered the girl without a name? Why is she labeled by her job duties? I don't remember discussing much about her father. Frankly, are we moving too quickly because deep down there is the feeling that this is a small, easy to read piece of literature? I think that would do Dai Sijie a disservice.

I want to understand the whole book. I need help from others to do it.

I don't like the unknown. Maybe that's why it frustrates me to wonder what happens after the Seamstress leaves the mountain. Making a guess I don't believe there are many options for the Seamstress, not during this period in China.

MARNI, DENJER, indeed, that IS the ultimate irony in a book that has several instances of same, which I had pointed out in an earlier post, that I cannot now find. I had also mentioned the undertone of subtle irony, e.g. in the Narrator's exchange with Four-Eyes mother and elsewhere.

This is a quiet book, quiet compared to blockbusters and enduring attention-getters of the day, like "The Da Vinci Code", or hugely revelatory (at times embellished) memoirs.

"Balzac" is neither "big" nor splashy. and it is short. To ny mind it is a perfect distillation of the human condition at a specific time and place, and, significantly, a situation which this country never had to experience : what millions of Chinese were forced to endure under Mao.

Given these circumstanceds, I submit to you that the flight of the Little Seamstress was much more than an act of youthful rebellion (and much more than she could have realized!) in search of a better life - something we can readily identify with, of course.

She was young, beautiful and had a practiced talent- essential attributes for a woman of any age and valid to this day. But what were her REAL chances even in the city, governed as much as the countryside by unbendable rules? Did she really have choices under those stifling conditions? Would men of that era take her seriously ?

Though imbued with the liberating vistas in Balzac's novels, the Little Seamstress was an innocent babe in the woods, prey for the predators in any form.

The beauty of a woman may well be a treasure beyond price, as Balzac said, but thankfully it is not the onlyher ony value. That's why I ended my earlier post with "Is that all there is? Thank you for your posts.

Traude, is it possible that the Seamstress misunderstood Balzac's quotation? Is it possible that she took his words at face value? Maybe a young girl, no matter how harsh her life, could not grasp the true meaning of Balzac's quote.

"I could have sworn she was a high school student from the city. The long pigtail tied with red ribbon had made way for a short bob, which was very becoming and modern-looking."

I feel that the boys failed her in some way. They never told the Seamstress their city experiences. Then, the Seamstress becomes like a "Sister Carrie." She becomes a naive girl looking for a fairy tale like life in the city. I feel she will meet the "snake" again in a different form.

There is a quote given from Madame Bovary.

"This final match was more selective in its fury, choosing to attack the end of the book, where Emma, in the agony of death, fancies she hears a blind man singing:

The heat of the sun of a summer day
Warms a young girl in an amorous way.

About the Seamstress I think the boys feel a sense of failure.

"We spent a long time searching our traumatised memories for any hints she may have given of the calamity that was to befall us. In the end we came up with several tell-tale signs, which were for the most part connected with her wardrobe."

My two cents...

I see the Seamstress as Kleo & Hats and perhaps others do...a very young, naive child of 16 -17 who has no idea, I suspect, what to expect in the "city." I don't know how big a city she's fleeing to..or if she has any money or relatives there. I don't think she's thinking of "inner beauty" for the reasons Kleo mentioned. Her changes were all about physical beauty...she's into what she told the narrator about the nail stain..."girly" things. She's aware, I think, of the attention the other men have tried to lavish on her and the would-be suitors. She did have sex with Luo, so she's aware of her draw for males. I just don't see great philosophical musings coming from her from what we know of her. She's not accustomed to reading literature for subtle nuances and symbols, etc., and so I tend to think she takes what she reads and applies them to her own experiences...and has not thought beyond the surface level.

As Hats said, I, too, fear that she might find the "snake" in her new Eden...the big city.

The quote about the boys being "traumatized" by her leaving is interesting. Given all that's happened to them, it's her leaving that is said to "traumatize" them. That makes them sound very young and very immature to me...and is that teenage male hormones and teenage male pride raging at their "rejection" by the Seamstress?

jane

Jane, your thoughts are my thoughts. I think Kleo wrote earlier about the dangers the Seamstress might face after her escape. The Seamstress is not at the age to care about inner beauty. She is concerned about "girly" things. Here is another quote.

"About two months earlier Luo had told me she had made herself a brassiere. She had been inspired by something in Madame Bovary...."

I am reminded of Anne Frank. Anne Frank faced the worst of times, the Holocaust. Still, in her diary she writes about the same feelings any young girl would feel. Anne Frank noticed the changes in her body, she had feelings for Peter. At the same time, Anne Frank was fully grounded in the horrors facing her. Since her life could change for the worse anytime, she wanted to live fully.

No matter how horrible the times there is some part of us that wants to grasp the whole human experience. We don't want to miss any stage of life.

Many thanks to HATS and JANE for their posts. Right in the middle of my # 249 the power went off here and did not return until 6:30 p.m. I am infinitely glad my post appeared at all. Wonderful. Thank you.

Yes, your points are well taken and I do agree, totally.
We don't know, of course, what "city" this is. Could it be Yong Jing per chance? But wasn't Yong Jing - while it sported the basket-ball court turned into open-air cinema - still so limited that the smell of the food cooked at one end of it pervaded the entire place ? What chances could the Little Seamstress have there? No other "city" is mentioned in the book.

I wholeheartedly agree that Luo and the Narrator were immature and deluded in the whole enterprise. (Isn't that almost a given? Ha !!!). Please let me say that the Narrator has my sympathy ... hopeful until the last moments of the futile chase, he realizes at last that he was nothing more for the Little Seamstress than the friend of a friend. How utterly devastating.

HATS, I have been in a position in Books and Literature where I did not want a discussion to end, and I already feel the pain of separation here. Perhaps there is no clear-cut solution, which our can-do optimisic minds yearn for. But there is hope - which can conquer all.

This is a story about the East, and hasn't the East been called inscrutable and mysterious ? How much did we know about China for excample before Pearl S. Buck wrote "The Good Earth" and the other books?

I think we have done justice to this deceptively "simple" little book and will continue to entertain any final remarks you may have.
I am also prepared to discuss symbolism in literature, briefly of course, since it has come up here.

But this is a collective effort where all voices are heard.
Thank you in advance.

Traude, I think you have led a wonderful discussion. I have learned much from your posts along with the other posters. I think we gained a great deal of information from this book. I will look forward to sharing another discussion with you and the other posters.

Thank You, Traude. I very much enjoyed this discussion.

Good job, Traude, in leading a discussion that fit the book in theme and level.

Kleo

I've really enjoyed this discussion and thank both Traude and my fellow "discussers" for this experience.

jane

Thank you for posting, HATS and KLEO.
We are not quite done because I had promised to say more about symbols. One of you had asked, why does a writer use them (at all) and is such use deliberate.

It is a perfectly reasonable, legitimate question and deserves a fuller answer than I had given earlier. The use of symbols is intensional, I believe. The longer answer as to the origin of symbolism is a little more complicated but should not be excessively technical.

Before symbols there were myths and allegories. Haven't we all heard, or read, such and such is symbolic of so and so ? Historically (always a good pont to begin), symbolism originated in France as a deliberate revolt against the impersonality of the realistic novel and the minute descriptions of external reality.
Rebel poets then turned inward to explore and to express subtle states of the psyche, claiming that poetry should evoke and rise above the level of objective description only. They sought poetic techniques that would enable them to suggest mysterious, inexpressible (subjective emotions at the heart of human existence.

interru[tion, my son is here. to be continued

Sorry about the interruption and the typos. I was unable to check before posting, my son's (hopelessly incorrigible) black Lab was all over me.

To continue :

Few reference books about French symbolism are available in English; one seminal work, The French Drama of the Unspoken by May Daniels, is out of print. Symbolism became a literary movement also in Germany and in Russia.
In Britain, symbolism became a major force during the 20th century. Joseph Conrad; E.M. Foster; D.H. Lawrence; Virginia Woolfe, and especially James Joyce wrote novels in which meaning was conveyed through patterns of images, ideas and central, suggestive symbols - rather than through the traditional method of narrative and discourse. Yeats was influenced by it in his early career and T.S. Eliot adopted it in developing his individual style.

There is much more to say on the subject, but this is not the place. This is only a longer answer to the question about symbols, which I had promised to give.
(BTW, do those of you who were here when "The Bone People" was discussed recall the recurring symbol of the spiral?)

The word "symbol" now has other meanings in other contexts, but in literature it is still used as a stand-in for the literal word. There are no precise, universally valid definitions for any given symbol (i.e. the raven in our story), hence different interpretations coexist. And I do believe that when an author uses a symbol, he does so intentionally.

Please let me know whether you have any input re the foregoing, otherwise I am prepared to end the discussion in the next day or so. Many thanks for your participation.

Traude, thank you for remembering to add this information about symbols. How is your shoulder?

Traude, thank you for the information about symbols. I'd never thought before about their origin -- in France. I guess I just thought that -- they just were.

This has been a most interesting discussion which I have enjoyed even if I didn't post very often. And I know I will be rereading parts after I watch the film this week. This discussion has made me more interested in the Cultural Revolution and am currently watching the Zhang Yimou film "To Live" which follows an urban family from the 1940's to the 1970's. In this story also, the people loved to be entertained by stories, in this case enhanced by puppets.

Thank you again, Traude, for leading such an excellent discussion. I hope your shoulder will soon be back to normal.

I did like Dai's inclusion of the ancient Gingko tree, and all the plants in the book. However, I was thinking about the Gingko and why he included it, is it because it is called the Maidenhair Tree in the West because it looks like maidenhair ferns?

There were a few other difficulties, like the herb described for malaria. Why not just use a common and well known herb? But then I realized this was symbolic of the ancient knowledge of China.

I don't think the author intends us to look forward to the new, to throw off the old ways. In fact, the Chinese have not only not thrown off the old ways they've taken them all over the world with them.

Yet, isn't this what was required of the Cultural Revolution, to bring China into the industrial age, the computer age, whatever modern place the communists wanted?

The Little Seamstress was all dressed up in the trappings of the modern world, but inside, all she thought of was the surface. How shallow the new culture of China promised to be.

I think that Dai's use of symbols was rather conscious, not so subtle. However, authors are not always conscious of the symbolism they impart to their books. I have had conversations with authors who learned things they didn't know about their books from their readers. This is okay.

One reason I think that symbols are not always a conscious contribution on the part of authors is I think modern audiences (the last 2 decades or so) tend to see meaning in EVERYTHING! This is why a book like The Da Vinci Code is such a huge success, the author played on a modern phenomenon: the modern human's need to see deeper meaning in the trivial.

I had also never really thought of the development of symbols as a literary device, although I read ancient books and see how differently from modern literature symbolism is handled (goddess appears on battlefield with staff of life and command versus the pomegranate hits the boy on the head).

I guess I had always just assumed that symbolism was part of literature as long as there had been literature. This is something I will have to learn more about.

Kleo

Thank you for leading this interesting discussion, Traude!

Traude, I have read your information again. I have heard people say James Joyce is very tough to understand. I think William Faulkner is a difficult author to understand too. Maybe he used a lot of symbolism. Maybe WF is just hard because of those long sentences.

I think symbolism makes a plot richer. If there is symbolism the plot stays with me longer. Symbolism, I think, makes you look at the ordinary in life and rediscover their meaning and importance.

We talked about symbolism during the Sweetwater discussion. The author, Mary Alice Monroe, gave her thoughts about symbolism. Ginny led the discussion.

Pedln, I will try to get the other film you mentioned. I bet it is very good. I have never heard of it. Kleo, thank you for your added information. It gave me even more to think about.

Pedln, like you, this discussion left me wanting to know more about China and/or the Cultural Revolution. I have an old book titled "Across China" by Peter Jenkins. At one time it was very popular. I think he walked across America too.

A discussion is over the top when it leads me to want to know more about a subject and the people.

I meant to write "Sweetgrass" by Mary Alice Monroe. Excuse me.

HATS, PEDLN, MARNI, KLEO, thank you for your last posts.

One more word about symbolism in literature: Though the movement passed years ago, authors continue to use symbols, even though readers may not always recognize them as such or fully understand their intended meaning. Let me mention here Blindness by Nobel Prize winner José Saramago, and Fitzgerald's use of colors in The Great Gatsby.

HATS, all your points are well taken. Joyce is very hard to understand, not only because of the symbols - not all of which are that subtle - but because of the stream of consciousness narrative method he used extensively, especially in Ulysses, where the events of a single day are detailed in 900 or so pages.
I've always been fascinated by that technique and have experimented with it (but never tried it on the participants of WREX).
Long sections of Ulysses are written in that manner, page after page, no punctuation, no paragraphs, just an uninterrupted flow of observations, thoughts, emotions, etc. The term is clear enough: that is, after all, how the mind works incessantly - except in sleep, and then there are dreams.

(I could, but there's really no need to, mention the fish and the tree (=the cross) that are representative of Christian symbolism, e.g. in the short stories of Flannery O'Connor.)

We have come to the end of the line. All in all I believe Balzac and the Little Chinese Seamstress is about (among other things) youth and coming of age, foolhardiness, exuberance, trial and error, disappointment, fear, anger, uncertainy, and also undying hopes and dreams-- all universally known.

It is gratifying to me that this little book has led us also into other directions, or may yet cause us to explore individually one aspect or another in it. I am glad to have had the pleasure of your company on this literary journey and thank you for your particiption and the insights you have provided. Many thanks also for sharing your personal experiences.

FTLOB = for the love of books.