The gifted Mary Alice Monroe has provided us with a meaningful novel about the trials and tribulations of a problematic family and their journey back to love and respect for one another. Her plot development is centered around the age-old loggerhead turtles whose instincts are not much different than the strong women in this novel.

Mary Alice Monroe has graciously agreed to meet with us during our stay on the Isle of Palms, where she resides with her family. From our January discussion of Beach House we plan to extract a list of your insightful comments pertaining to issues and questions that we would like Ms. Monroe to address.

Alf, I'm not an "insightful" reader, but I thoroughly enjoyed Beach House. I plan to reread it before the Isle of Palms gathering. I will subscribe to this discussion, but may not comment much.

I've got to study my Latin before getting to the beach to get out of Ginny's dog house, LOL. Not really, she's been very understanding, but I've just not been able to give it the time needed. Hence, the possible lurking here. Sue

Not to worry! You are welcome here in any capacity and that is not true - that you're not an insightful reader. I've read many of your posts. Ginny's easy---- don't let her scare you.

Bring with me about the book that I have.

I have read the book but don't know if I will be available to discuss it. Will try!

Stop in and just say hi when you're surfing around. There are many thought provoking insights in this novel

Well, I gave my first copy of Beach House to a friend, so I picked up another at the used book store. I didn't want to ask my friend for it because she may come with me and she's trying to read it. She's already read Beach Girls, which I haven't looked at.

I'll be back with you all after Christmas. Flying to DC tomorrow -- hope hope, weather permitting. See you on the 2nd, if not before.

Welcome, Miss Ginny. I knew that you'd like this book. It is so full of what ???? life. Life, yes, that's the word.
We witness the trials and tribulations of this sad family; everyone moves at their own pace with their private heartaches. How often do we all do the same thing? We become so entangled in our own thoughts and lives, we forget about the true sentiments and feelings of those we love, or have loved the most, at one time. This is a heart-wrenching book and I skimmed thru it for the most part until I became embraced by this family- then I had to reread it . I love the way she tells the story. It's a narrative about life, as sad as it can get.

I have my plane ticket to Norfolk Virginia airport near Anna's that my son Daniel helped me with this morning online. I am very please with the price and all. I will spend 2 days at Anna's before we leave for the Isle of Palms and 2 days after we come back.

I found the book easy to read and it will be a pleasure to discuss it with the author. She is insightful and her description of the turtles, that I knew nothing about, very moving as it related to the story. The hurricane episode was a tremendous even and I now understand how everybody who lives in the path of hurricanes can lose their lives in an instant, something that we never have to worry about here up North. A goosebumpy part of the book.

Our Christmas Holidays are all but over and I am happy that my two children coming from far are still here for a few days. It was wonderful.

See you later, Éloïse

Hey posters I have read and enjoyed The Beach House very much but don't have the book just now but will be reading your posts and contribuating what I can remember.

Alf& Judy: I plan to join this discussion . I may be one week late in participating because I am borrowing the book from my local library.

What Ginger forgets to say is that she sent me the three beach books and now she doesn't have them any more to discuss Beach House which I loved. Thank you Gingee for your generosity. Would you like me to send the Beach House back to you? I didn't read the other two though.

I had a long chat on the phone with Anna and we are making our plans to drive down come snow or high water but not too high though as we will be driving by the ocean front for a while.

Have to go, see you soon.

It's relatively warm here, hovering around freezing point. Yesterday it rained so much that a lot of snow has melted and you see shiny ice

this is very exciting. Gingee, bless her pea-picken heart is a virtual giver and we all know that about her.

flory- We are so happy to have you here with us, we'll be awaiting your arrival in our discussion. You don't need the book to start, just jump right in and join us.

As Alf said I am a giver. No need to send the books back as I have read all three and enjoyed them very much. I could check the library if I wanted the book but am not much of a talker and am reading Alice Monros Runaway (short stories) that will be discussed here in Febuary.

Welcome Florry and Horselover.

Good morning all

Mary Alice Monroe has turned out to be one of my most favorite authors. I so loved the beach house and skyward. I hope that when we are at the Isle of Palms we can see the places that she writes about in her books.

My favorite parts of the book and I know this may sound strange but it was the heading at the beginning with a explanation or quote about the turtles.

I can see that little house in my mind as if I had been there. I had an experience with turtles when I lived in St Croix and will tell you all about it in SC. It was one of the best times of my life.

I loved the lady Cara, any woman who stands up and declares her independence as she did has my vote.

Will be back later today. I must look through the book as it was quite sometime ago that I read it. Its a miracle that I remember as much as I do.

Welcome everyone. I will be back home soon and have my hot little hands on the book. In the mean-time, Judy, would you mind typing up the beginning phrases re. the loggerheads for chapters 1,2 and 3? I think it would be kind of interestesting to see how closely related Cara dn the loggerheads are in these beginning chapters. thanks

Chapter 1

Loggerhead 1.Latin: Caretta caretta. A tropical sea turtle with a hard shell and a large head.

2. a stupid fellow; blockhead.

3. at loggerheads; in disagreement; in a quarrel.

Chapter 2

Female Loggerheads return home to nest. Is it imprinting or genes that prompts this behavior? Smells or sounds? Perhaps magnetic fields?

No one knows for sure

Chapter 3

At last the loggerhead arrives in familiar waters,

She waits in the swells near shore as a moon rises above the Atlantic. Her home is the sea, but instinct demands that she leavae all she knows and face the unknown dangers of the beach to nest. Is it safe here, or should she swim farther on?

As you've written above #1. is Caretta-Caretta. The daughter, Cara, was named after the loggerhead turtles by Olivia (the mom) who is a devoted turtle lady, working diligently to protect the loggerhead turtles when they nest.

#2. a stupid fellow or a blockhead - we learn that our darling Cara is bit of a blockhead as the X boyfriend is.

#3. "at loggerheads" or in disagreement with. Cara and Livy have been estranged for a long time, each nursing their own wounds, wouldn't you say?
Livy diagnosed with cancer has recently decided to discontinue her treatment and has summoned her darling Cara back home, to the beach, from Chicago. she is hoping for a reconciliation with her before it is too late. How many of us wish that we could have had that last conversation or that little bit of time with a loved one before they passed on?

anyone here want to tackle that thought? Am I a day early here folks? Oh well - I'll just chatter on to myself until someone shows up.

I think I got the ladies mixed up. I admire the Mother Oliva. Of course with me shy retiring personality I can't imgine anyone telling me what to do. Those who have tried now know better hehe

"At loggerheads." Yes, Livy wants a reconciliation, but I think she wants it as much for Cara's sake as for her own -- always the mother protecting her child.

I have a good friend whose only daughter has treated her parents rather shabbily. I feel badly for my friend and her husband, but also have deep concerns for the daughter, If they don't reconcile, the daughter, when she is older and her parents have passed on, is going to feel a lot of guilt and have a lot of regrets about how she treated them.

I think Livy does not want Cara to face that.

It's been a while since I finished the book, so am going to have to go back and do some reviewing.

I enjoyed this book and agree with ALF about how the connection between the description of the turtles ties in with the story.

I don't still have the book either. I remember the prefaces about the turtles and I remember that I was so engrossed in the story that I didn't try to analyze them all through the book. I am delighted that we will be doing that here.

PEDLN: I like your term "shabbily" to describe how your friends' daughter has treated them. I have a daughter who has done the same to me. I envied Olivia that she could ask Cara to "come home" and she would respond as she does.

Now that Mary Alice Monroe will be visiting with everyone at the Beach at the end of the month, I am very sorry I won't be able to be there. I have read all of her books I can get my hands on.

I particularly enjoyed at the first of the book how Cara's Mother took such delight in the old cottage and its furnishings. Somehow loving the old things as opposed to the well furnished everything had to be kept just so big house in Charleston.

Her joy at finding the turtles nests and protecting them was wonderful

Cara did come home for her father's funeral. Probably for appearances sake only because he was a real SOB. He was the one who drove her out of the house in the first place, and he is no doubt the reason she didn't come home.

The book seems to emphasize Southern heritage. Are those who have been brought up in the South (with a capital "s") really different from those brought up elsewhere?

Well Pedlin I've always heard that southern ladies were genteel with perfect manners and very gracious. I don't know how that fits in with the real ladies now but I imigine they might be just as nice. Look at our Ginny, a rea southern lady.

I have heard of several children who were mad at their parents for a long time. One lady in her 70's living in my sister's apartment building told me that her only daughter and her have not seen each other for 15 years because of something that happened a very long time ago and she doesn't even remember what it is any more. I asked her if she was willing to make the first step toward a reconciliation, she said "no". Is pride more important than love I wonder?

Still, I asked myself, why doesn't the daughter make the first step and reach out for her old mother? Is it because younger people never think about dying very much and feel that they still have lots of time left. If the mother still cares about her daughter she should make the first step and keep trying until the daughter finally gives in. Life is so short.

Well, I have to weigh in on the issues between mothers and daughters because I am estranged from my mother and have not seen her for 2 years even though we live in the same area.

I won't burden you with all the history that led up to the estrangement but just say that my mother never loved me unconditionally. I could fill a book with the cruel things she did to me psychologically, yet to some people she is an angel.

What I wanted to share with you and that I think is important is this: I have left my mother to keep from being hurt any more. I still love her and keep up with her through relatives. I wish her well, I truly do, there's no hate in me for her. But when she accused me of stealing from her, even of trying to kill her - I know how ridiculous this sounds - I realized I had all I could take and walked away. Perhaps I shouldn't love her, but you don't always control who you love. But I doubt if I ever see her again because I know deep in my heart that if I do she will find a way to twist the knife in me again - and that is the only thing I cannot take.

Fortunately I have a loving husband and othe relatives who understand the situation and provide me compassion. I often wonder if I get called to her death bed if I would go. I think if I thought she couldn't hurt me again, I would go - but not if there was any chance of her venom showing itself. I am at peace with my decision to leave her because I know in my heart I have been a good daughter and have done nothing but love her my whole life. Once a mutual friend asked if I would consider seeing mother again. I asked the friend if mother still thought I had done things against her, and she said, "Yes." So there you go, there's just no point.

So there are legitimate reasons for children going away from their parents. Not all parents are good people, unfortunately. Keeping from getting hurt is a pretty good reason to stay away - it's not pride, it's survival for some of us.

Pamela

We returned home late last night from the state on NY and as usual i do not feel well. I believe it's the "little" bugs that occupy themselves onto the little bugs (grandkids.) I am sick to my stomach which is very unusual for me.

I diverge --

Our Ginny is not truly a southern woman, she was born in Philedelphia for crying out loud. She has acclaimated well to southern manners, etc. and has been well trained in southern hospitality but to her it comes naturally. That would not be the case for me. I'm still a damned yankee and will probably always be such. I do respect the southern women however because they have true grit, they literally "bite the bullet" and smile right thru it. I can not do that and admire that amiable manner.

We will learn a great deal about the loggerheads here as our story unfolds. Allow me to get some coffee and return in a bit.

Alf as being a born and bred West Coast Person am I a yankee?? If not what am I?????? Well I am on the sick list to. My back doesn't hurt bad unless I move but I am going to work, which as you know is driving and make up my mind what to do as the day progresses.

Freezing cold here, when I went to work yesterday it was 25 and icy roads and today it looks colder.

My sympathies to you. I, too, know full well what it is like to feel like you are a burden to your mother. My mother and I were never close. We were more like housemates. As a young girl, as long as I was home for supper at 5:30 PM I was pretty much dismissed from the house. Blah, blah. I hate to even dredge all of that up. This is another reason that I felt such strong emotions while reading this story. It hit home for me. I was fortunate in the sense that I had come to grips with why we were never close and the reason for such a chasm between us. It didn't change a thing in our relationship but it freed me from thinking it was me that was at fault for 40+ years. I had always grieved and believed that I was somehow faulty and blemished, lacking something that my mother preferred. So, I chose to deal with it in my own way. I read and I removed myself from her presence. (Just as Cara did).
When she was dying and I was at her side, I literally felt sorry for her and regretted what she had missed by choosing not to have a relationship with me. The bottom line, in my case, was that I finally understood! I understood that that was her choice, not any dereliction of mine. That made it much easier, for me, and I hope for her, when she was dying to talk calmly and lovingly to her. Every family has their own story and I have chosen over the years to NOT make it too important to me.

Cara could feel the miles moving in her veins as she neared her home (like the loggerheads who return to the beach of their birth.) The connection was there, memories crowded her thoughts and there was her mother, ready to greet her with open arms. She noted how frail and sickly Olivia looked. She'd not seen her since her fathers funeral-18 months ago. She did note however that mama no longer was wearing her wedding ring.

Don't you love it? Cara was viewing herself in the mirror and felt "by southern belle standards" she was too big. At 5' 10" she was tall, big footed, with large lips and a narrow face. I liked the way that sounded. I'd like about 10 more inches on my fat little frame. Lovie, of course her daughter's looks and her daughter.

It says in this book that the S. Carolina moon can lull one to sleep with its silvery glow. That's music to my ears.

I was adopted supposedly at birth but that was not true. I was lied to from the time I was born and will never know the whole truth. I didn't like my adoptive Mother as she was a very cold and uncaring person. I ran away regularly until my senior year when I moved to North Bend to live with a step brother where I was actually a worker for my board and room as he had three children. I have found my birth Mother but too late as she has dementia and remebers zip. So I actually will never find a real Mother. Probably my train wreck of a life is a result of begin thrown out with the dish water when I was born. But it really wasn't her fault. Yuk I must check out the book there must be something fun to talk about.

It's redemption and reconciliation. This is a story of a wonderful woman dying and wishes only for "peace" with her daughter. It's a story of love and family secrets.

Alf,

Yes, that is exactly right, it is your mother's loss that she chose not to have a relationship with you. That is what stands out for me, too. Here she had this daughter who would have done anything in the world for her and loved her dearly, and she threw her away. She didn't know what she had and still searches for it. I too try not to make it too important in my life and move on. A good plan!

Pamela

my mother's relationship with her mother and my aunt's relationship with her mother, I am still surprised to hear the stories of troubles between mothers and daughters. My mother's brother was the preferred child in that family and my grandmother(a wonderful grandmother, by the way) even told my mother, on her deathbed, that he was her favorite child. How hurtful! How could a mother do that?? I am amazed! And, my aunt(an inlaw), says that she just couldn't forgive her mother for the hurt that she felt was heaped on her and her brother during their formative years. She stood at the foot of her mother's deathbed and still felt the hatred in her heart. She feels guilty about this but can't seem to help it. Her own daughters, five of them, have unpleasant feelings for her,too. It must congenital!!

The book, which is very light (IMHO) but thoughtfully constructed, finally brought me to tears at the end. Its been quite a long time since I have read any fiction but I,too, loved the references to the loggerheads at the beginning of each chapter. When I finished it, I called a cousin who's 14 year old daughter helped the "Turtle Ladies" on Fripp Island,SC and offered to have my copy signed by the author and then give it to his daughter. He said she would love it as her favorite animals are horses and turtles. She is even memtioned somewhere on a net site dedicated to Saving Loggerheads. Sweet young girl!

Today we have the formidable Cara meeting the young, pregnant teenager, Toy Sooner, who has taken up residence and the love and care of Miss Livey. Toy! I can't wait to ask the author why she chose that name? Toy! Poor child was a "Toy " wasn't she, to her parents and particularly to that fool, live-in boyfriend of hers? Livey attempts to squelch any problems between Toy and Cara as she relates the sad story of Toy's life.

"You make it sound like she's some dog I found at the pound. Yes she was at the shelter, poor girl. Women need a place to go to when they're frightened for their well-being."

How true is that? Don't we all need a refuge somewhere- A fortress to retreat to for security?

Yes, I am afraid that there is plenty of dissention and unkindness in familys. The sad part of that is, the residual damage that is left on one's psyche.
Cara just thinks she's been damaged but will begin to realize that "there is more to the picture." What an extremely kind thing for you to do for your cousin's daughter.

"At last the loggerhead arrives in familiar waters. She waits in the swells near shore as a moon rises above the Altlantic. Her home is the sea, but instinct demads that she leave all she knows and face the unknown dangers of the beach to nest. Is it safe here, or should she swim farther on?" How can this pertain to young Cara? Or to the pregnant teen? Livey?

Andy asks, "Is it safe here, or should she swim farther on?" How can this pertain to young Cara? Or to the pregnant teen? Livey?"

Lovey knows she will be leaving all that is familiar to her, her family, her dear-to-her beach house, and her beloved turtles. Can we compare her wanting to reconcile and bridge the gap with Cara to the mother loggerhead's nest preparation? Caring for the young is what a mother does.

My mother and me were never close either. She was not a loving, warm person and when I remember everything she did for us during the depression, was it just for duty?

Many times I wondered how her own childhood had been. She was born in 1893, my father in 1884. From what I know of their childhood, it was not very good. My father could barely read and write. I never felt my mother's arms around me, never heard her say she loved me or anyone of us for that matter. Yet on her dying bed at 95, her 5 living children were there, we know she loved us because she sacrificed everything to protect us from harm and she gave us a legacy hard to match even today in terms of complete devotion to her family.

I feel that there are definite generation gaps. The education my parents received at the turn of the 20th century was a far cry from what I received and what our children received. My parent's childhood compared with that of my grandchildren is like if it happened during the stone age.

Today we know that children need genuine demonstration of affection, then children were more of a burden than a joy, at least around here and what I lacked in terms of affection as a child, I have in abundance now with my own family.

"Can't you grant yourself this one gift of time and spend a few days with your ancient mother? Please come home, Cara dear. Soon." and Cara did because she needed her mother at this particular time. But I wonder why, if she was estranged from her mother, she felt pulled toward her? Lovie's ability to draw her daughter to her before she died was a sign to me that she was loving to start with but the circumstances prevented her from showing it to her daughter before.

And as you all say, all mothers are not worth the affection of their daughter and it's better to let it go at that sometimes than to force a rapprochement.

Lovie felt that Cara needed to erase the resentment of the past and it was for Cara that she did it because after all, when you are dead, you are dead.

I thought it was interesting that when Toy comes in the morning with groceries and Cara hadn't talked to her Mother the night before and she was horrified that this girl lived there without her Mother even telling her. Her make up and clothes did not fit Cara's idea of who should be staying with her Mother. I wonder when it becomes that the rolls change and daughter becomes Mother and the Mother becomes the child? I think many of assume assume that roll for one reason or another. We think we know what is best for our Mothers and might be way out of what they think but we go ahead like steam rollers assuming we know whats best.

Caring for their young is what mothers do, isn't it? I also saw Cara in that blurb as she arrived in "familiar waters" at the beach and waited.

Her home is the sea, but instinct demands that she leave all she knows and face the unknown dangers of the beach to nest. Is it safe here, or should she swim farther on?"

She is beside herself, she has lost her lover, her job and her self esteem and she must now face the unknown waters of unemployment and a "fractured" life.

Judy- I found that out this past Christmas when my girls started deciding what might be best for me and started discussing this as if I were not there. Hello! I'm the mother, I told them, you are both still the children.

Eloise, bless your heart, you are by far the kindest soul I've ever met. You hit on a crucial point when you stated that there definetly is a generation gap. When I was born, my mother was 39 yrs. old, in todays standards that is young but in those days I believe that 50 something was a "ripe old age."

They most certainly do.. Even though Cara has been away for so long, she assumes, almost as soon as she arrives, the need to assess and make judgements about her mother and her lifestyle.

You can't help it when a daughter takes over, but you must be firm and not lose too much of your independence.

It's been quite a while since I've read Beach House, but I remember (sort of) that Cara is estranged from her mother because Livey didn't stand up for Cara when the father was abusive. Perhaps this is a poor reason, but I think I would resent someone who was permitting this. I have had no personal experience with a mother as ours left us (3 little girls) when I was 6--the oldest sister. I've had lots of estrangement issues from that experience. Sue

Cara was only 18 years old when she left home. For all practical purposes "ran away." Except nobody was coming after her. Maybe someone can refresh my memory, but didn't she want to go away to college and her father said "no, you'll go to school here." (I've got to go back and track that down.)

I can understand Cara's resentment, especially when she first left home. And deep down I think Lovey should have tried to help her after she left. And then I think of some extended members of my family. The father in NO WAY resembled Preston, Cara's father, but they had 5 daughters to educate and they told them, "you go to the University extention here in town for two years, then you can go where you want." Well, one of the younger ones decided she wanted to go to the state university her freshman year and she up and left. Her parents didn't give in, but her mother said those were some of the hardest times of her life -- she wanted to send her daughter money and help her out, but it totally went against the way they had raised the rest of the family. (The girl stayed away for a year, then came home and followed her parents wishes. Now she's a lawyer.)

Yes, Pedln, Cara was only 18 when she aimlessly headed out of Charleston, in tears, leaving her family behind. Her rebellious, outspoken ways were sick of the "delicate mannered, cultued city of Charleston."
She attended college, got her Master's degree, had a few boyfriends and literally worked her way up the ladder of success. Now, here she appears, back home, sans boyfriend and jobless, to nurse her wounds, her wounded ego and her migraines. Up until this point I had no sympathy for her solemn, unmanageable, disloyal nature. I agreed with Ginny that dear Cara had better get off her high horse. Her mother admonishes her "Caretta Rutledge, you were vorn a Southern woman and don't ever forget it. When you left Charleston, you may have put miles between yourself and family, lost your accent and gained a couple of degrees and title, but where does that leave you?"

Pat says "You can't help it when a daughter takes over, but you must be firm and not lose too much of your independence." That is funny ! If you've met Pat you must know that she is by far the most independent, stubborn woman alive. I can't see anyone pushing her around(including me.)

You're right Sue today we will rehash the "family" secrets that has caused the confrontational Cara so much agony.

I have a strong admiration for this wise woman who opts not to follow a regimen of chemo as there is little hope and a poor prognosis for cure. She tells Cara: "You are a strong woman but strength without flexibility makes one hard." She warns her that she must be more pliant so that she can bend with the wind, like the palms.

"This is the secret of a Southern woman. Strength, resilence and beauty."

I love this Flo the old lady next door what a find she is. She really tells it like it is and chides Lovie for not telling her daughter right away she is ill. I love when she just speaks her mind and lets the chips fall where they may. I thought some about the quote she said "you might know better than most how empty a busy life can be."

Ginny what time of the year do they hatch?? In St Croix my husband and I found a nest of baby turtles and carried lots of them down to the sea. The nest was in a corner on the sand under our swimming pool. It was one of the most special nights of my life, he and I had quite a life.

Ginny, I'm glad you raised the question of Southern Women, are they really different from the rest of us. Of course, you are much more tactful that I. I thought, but didn't say at the time, What does that make the rest of us? Chopped liver? I don't think they have the market on manners, gentility and hospitality.

I was glad to hear your comments from the woman at Mobile meals, about all the natural dangers faced by the little turtles to be. But I was also under the impression from the book, that progress and man had created other hazaards for them as well.

From the Montreal Gazette: "Oceanographer died at sea in Thailand A Nova Scotia woman who devoted herself to studying the sea, only to be killed by the tsunami that devastated parts of southern Asia, was remembered yesterday as a tireless and meticulous advocate for ocean life."

This 39 year old woman was doing a research on endangered sea turtles.

I would love to go to South Carolina during the hatching of the baby turtles, but I guess it would be in the fall during hurricane season, according to the book. Being Canadian I would find it very scary to witness a hurricane, I prefer our sub zero weather any time. It's less dangerous.

One difference in Southern women is that while they are usually very strong, they frequently defer to their husbands or any living older relative when there is a difference of opinion. This is not to say that SW are wimps, just exceedingly polite and probably privately seething inside. I think Cara's absence is probably due to Lovey's "giving in" to her husband. Sue

I think you are right Sue

"Though the mother loggerhead is tired and hungry, her work is just beginning. She will nest an average of four times during this season, resting two weeks between each nest."

Cara (the oddity of the family) is reunited with her brother "Palmer the Panther" and his family, accepting an invitation to dinner in her old house, along with Lovey and Toy. "Cara knew that a beautiful house was not always a happy one."
Cara had the urge to turn and run when she saw the house and memories erupted that she would just as soon have kept buried.
She takes such delight in her niece, Linnea but is taken back by how much Palmer acts like her father used to act when they were young. I personally have a very strong aversion to Palmer and trust that I know him well. I was raised with a brother such as he. As the night wore on and Palmers drinking continued, the uglier he became to everyone around him. He insults his own mother and practically accuses Toy of stealing from Lovie and then proceeds to start a fight with Cara about the Beach House property and old family history.

"You compare me to Daddy? Well maybe I am. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. But.. I was here, dealing with his reeking alcoholism and his plain cussed meanness..."

He continues to rant about how the business was left to him and the job of "caring" for his mother because Cara had turned her back on him (the father) and frankly the old goat never forgave her for that.

Andy, I'm glad you brought up Palmer. After his upbringing you'd think that that apple would try to find another tree. Aren't we supposed to learn from the mistakes of the others. So, is Palmer a "good ole boy?" We've been talking about Southern women. How about Southern men? Do they all get stereotyped into "good ole boys?" Thinking about Palmer makes me think about some of the males in "ya ya sisterhood" and some of the law enforcement in movies set in the South.

Or are all southern males like Rhett Butler?

Which brings up another question. Are our conceptions of Southern men and women formed by the literature that has come from the South?

Damned if I know the answer to that one. Ginny???? Would you be honest enough to tell us the truth about that question? We promise not to tell Mr. W. what you've said.

Pedln, I can never understand why people would choose to act uncivilized particularly if that is the way they were raised. I hope to the almighty that I parented differently just because of the way that I was parented. I made a concentrated effort to do it differently.

Well, one thing I've noticed that is different about Southern men is many have a big thing about honor. The Northen men I've known can insult each other all day long and then go out to dinner together that night. It's more of a game to them. With Southern men, they take their honor very seriously, and if you insult one of them you've lost a friend for life. Come to think of it, I'm kind of that way too even though I'm female. You can criticize much about me, but if you attack my character that's pretty much it for me,

Pamela

A "good, ole boy" is usually polite to women, rowdy with his male friends. He loves football, drinking whiskey, hunting, and fishing. He actually goes to church pretty frequently and if he's a lower middle class gob, he loves NASCAR. He is conservative politically, a super patriot, hates "pointy headed liberals" (quoting gob George Wallace). Not all gobs are nasty and hateful when they drink, but some are, like Palmer. There is no point in arguing politics or being on the opposite side of a football game with them. They'll just pat you on the head and say, "now, now, little lady, you don't really mean that".

Are you getting the idea that I'm not fond of the so-called GOB? This is a stereotype and not all southern men and gentlemen are GOBs, thank goodness. (notice that not all southern men are gentleman IMO) I think there are plenty of GOBs in the other Red States, too! Sue

There's still a few good ole boys in the south, but thank goodness I don't know that many. My husband has the thing about honor, but he doesn't drink, hates football, and thinks women are just as smart as men. He is conservative, I must admit!

Horselover, thank you and I might add about women during the depression which started in 1929. women in Quebec used to have extremely large families when families lived on the farm and when so many people moved to the city, they still continued to have far more children than they could reasonably afford. After the 1930's jobs just disappeared by magic but families still needed to eat.

Mothers were just overwhelmed by family commitments and by submissions traditional dictates. A woman at that time couldn't walk out of a marriage with her many children, there was nowhere to go. Society didn't allow this so some mothers were too emotionally drained to provide the affection children need to develop properly on that level.

Today, it is all so different.

Thank you Ginny for your comments about Gone with the Wind and southern men. I am probably the only person in the world who found GWTWind tedious and pretentious. Fear not, I don't like John Wayne either. Well I realize that that is almost unAmerican -- it's like hating apple pie and motherhood. As far a southern men vs. any other kind of man, I think human nature abounds in every region- good, bad and indifferent.

Scamper your husband sounds like my kind of guy! You must be very proud of him.

Sue- that cracked me up-- "pointy headed liberals." ahah LOL - I've witnessed some of them in the political discussion folder recently.

Horselover - I hope you get your book soon but stick around I love your comment about the turtles being fortunate that they do not have to worry about their relationship with their young- in particular the male.

"Under the cloak of night the loggerhead comes ashore. She slowly drags her body in a tanklike crawl to a dry site high on the beach. Only the female loggerhead comes ashore to nest. Once the male hatchling swims into the sea, he almost never will set flipper on beach again."

Cara tries to be objective when her drunken brother insults her and talks about selling Lovie's Beach House. Palmer's face "was beet red with the look of a bloodhound on the scent." I can almost see this dolt as he encourages a sale and tells Lovie to be sensible and realistic about her health. (The fool isn't even aware that his mother is dying as he speaks.) Old family secrets are thrown up to him when he insults the young, pregnant Toy. Cara reminds Palmer ("the pot calling the kettle black") that he, too, was not without fault as he had paid off a young girl that he'd gotten in trouble back in high school. At this stage, I felt the story take on a whole different air. Cara apologises to her mother and says "I'm remembering exactly who I am and why I left here in the first place. Palmer, if you don't mind my saying so, you've become every bit as much of a heavy-handed chauvinist pig as Daddy ever was." AHA! The calvary has arrived. In conversation we now learn that Palmer had inherited the house and everything in it. I love the last sentence in this chapter. " Before the door closed behind her, she heard the sudden gust of wind as the mocking howl of a ghost. " (Daddy Dearest, I assume?)

Oh yeah what a great family. Palmer is growing to be the same man his father was a drunk, a bully and a bore. While the women do their duties as have been laid out for them. I really can't imigine it but that is how some families used to be. Did any of you see Center of the Universe I think Wed??? John Goodman said to Jean smart who plays his wife. I absolutly forbid you to do that. He no more got the words out of his mouth and Started to laugh and they both just howeled and I don't think it was all acting. It was funnnnnnnnny.

I think if my Mother (I will never really ever have one) called and asked me to come to the beach or wherever after a long estrangement I would go, don't know why. I am taking care of Mother now and for the life of me I don't know why. If there was someone in the it might be different. I guess I am just the type of person who understand responsibilty even if it isn't really mine. Yike I have to go to the mall. I will be naked in SC If I don't get moving.

Oh yeah what a great family. Palmer is growing to be the same man his father was a drunk, a bully and a bore. While the women do their duties as have been laid out for them. I really can't imigine it but that is how some families used to be. Did any of you see Center of the Universe I think Wed??? John Goodman said to Jean smart who plays his wife. I absolutly forbid you to do that. He no more got the words out of his mouth and Started to laugh and they both just howeled and I don't think it was all acting. It was funnnnnnnnny.

I think if my Mother (I will never really ever have one) called and asked me to come to the beach or wherever after a long estrangement I would go, don't know why. I am taking care of Mother now and for the life of me I don't know why. If there was someone in their it might be different. I guess I am just the type of person who understand responsibilty even if it isn't really mine. Yike I have to go to the mall. I will be naked in SC If I don't get moving.

“If the site doesn’t feel right or if she encounters a root or a rock, or if she senses an intruder, the loggerhead will return to the sea without laying her eggs. This is known as a “false crawl.”

Lovie sits with Cara and explains why she didn’t want any part of the old house. She loves the Beach House and is happier when she is there. She says “a woman’s life has so many demands, because she is the axis around which so many little planets spin.” Is there a woman amongst us that doesn’t understand that statement?

Her one regret is that she didn’t allow enough time for solitude all of those years. I agree with that statement for myself, too. A quiet time to sit, reflect, pary and refill our wells is imperative to our well-being.

Alf, unfortunately I am one of them--or almost, and have taken a lot of grief about it although I consider myself sort of a Southern Woman. I am not afraid to speak my mind, politically, and it's usually on the liberal side. The Prez is not the only person with Compassion. I consider myself compassionate, also. I very seldom post in the political discussions, though, as most posters are very vitriolic--and never seem to be able to look at the other person's opinion. So impolite! (that's not very Southern--politeness is a personal mantra to most Southerners, men and women).

Did you realize that land turtles also lay their eggs in holes and leave them? I've come upon several female turtles laying eggs at our old farm. I have never been there to see the eggs, hatch, though. The mamas dig the holes with their back legs and cover them the same way, I think.Sue

I suppose we are obligated to try to think of some of the trials of life that Palmer has encountered. After all, Cara left - and he was saddled with the family responsibility, he had to put up with his father until he died just 18 months ago. What chance did he have to be different? Cara and Palmer were close as children, so surely he had some redeeming qualities. Maybe if Cara had at least acknowledged to him the difficulty of living with the family responsibilities things would have gone smoother. It is remarkable how just a little acknowledgement of another's difficulties opens so many doors. Maybe he would have liked to have left to but didn't have the courage, or felt too keenly the responsibilities.

Cara deserves some other criticism, too. I think not only was she enraged by her father's bully tactics, but she was oh so disappointed that her mother didn't stand up for her. I had a similar situation in my life when my mother called me up on the phone and said unspeakeable things to me - my shocking realization of how much she hated me - and my Dad was in the room at the time. That phone call was like getting a call that my mother had died, but my Dad never even tried to call me to see if I was OK. He's been gone a couple of years now, and I've never quite forgiven him for that. I asked him afterwards why he didn't try to call me - after he gave me a graphic description of how elated mother was when she hung up the phone - and he just looked at me blankly. It apparently never even occurred to him - and he probably wouldn't have crossed her directly anyway. Very similar to the Cara situation with her mother and father. BUT I didn't walk off from my father. I knew he loved me but that he was not strong and not sensitive enough to offer the nurture. I think this was similar to Cara's mother, and Cara should have gone back periodically for her sake at least. There's usually plenty of blame to spread around in such family situations!

Judy, you mentioned you wondered why you took care of your mother. I struggled with this long ago, and I came to the conclusion that I would try to always do what I felt right to me so that I would have no regrets when the person died. That seems to have always worked for me. No one can tell another what that 'right to me' is, but each person knows what they feel inside. I put up with my mother for years because I didn't want to have any regrets, and I don't. It's a blessing, and maybe that is what you are doing also.

Pamela

Scamper- I feel bad for you. When you love someone as you loved your father, you honestly expect them to stick up for you and give you the suport that you need. It's admirable that you are able to understand his weaknesses and still love him in spite of the slight that he gave you when your mother made that horrid call. Good for you!

Sue -yes, they mentioned that about digging the holes with their flippers, in the book too, didn't they?

I read this book some time ago to I will have to refresh my memory. Enjoyed the info about the turtles, but the people in the book did not make much of an impression upon me, suppose it is a question of where one is from.. ie pov.. will revisit. Colkot

Did anyone happen to watch CNN news last night when they had the little bit about rescuing the newly hatched turtles on one of the beaches that had been hit by the tsunami?

PEDLN: I missed that story on CNN. How appropriate for this discussion.

I had no ideas, and no curiousity either, about how turtles laid their eggs prior to reading this book. Now the subject is very interesting.

Marjorie- Welcome here. Marjorie is responsible for our lovely graphics above.

"At the water's edge the turtle lifted her head, arching her neck as if sniffing the air. Thyen she lowered her beak,poking it into the sand. Lovie could only guess she was tapping into some ancient, instinct-stored information that would guide her. At last, with a slow, dragging shuffle, the loggerhead plowed her way onto the beach. Every few steps the turtle stopped, contending with the effects of gravity on her threee-hundred pounds of weight."

she rushed to awaken Cara to witness the scene as the loggerhead slipped out one hundred leathery eggs, one by one, while great streams of salty tears flowed down from her eyes. I loved this part of the book and Lovie's thought that it was just like a mothers tears. The tears of duty, love and commitment. The tears of resignation and acceptance and the tears of abandonement. For this sea turtle would finish laying her eggs then leave the nest, never to return.

That paragraph pretty well sums up the essence of this novel, IMO.

HORSELOVER: I live in San Jose -- definitely Bay Area.

My library is also sadly lacking in her books. I have requested'The Four Seasons' .... only one in their listing.

I read The Beach House last year and was delighted. Talked both my daughter and granddaughter into reading it and they were also thrilled. They did return my copy and so I will read it again....nice thing about growing older, one forgets so quickly!!

" The turtle uses her hind flippers in an elaborate digging ritual, alternately digging out scoops of sand to create an egg chaamber 18- 22 inches deep."

This novel touches on abuse- both physical and mental anguish that is brought on by violence. I like the way the author introduces it through both the very young Toy and the age old family secrets.

Cara being told of her mother's impending doom and the metastasis of the lung cancer has agreed to stay for the summer. Her old time friend Emmie and Ms. Lovie's friend Flo work out a plan to help during the turtle season. Ms. Lovie has always kept the records, instructed the children and written in the papers informing about the loggerheads. Now she needs help with all of these chores and everyone becomes involved, including Careta. How lucky are these women to have such wonderful, fine friends?

Youth is the gift of nature, but age is a work of art." Stanislaw J. Lec

I spoke before about the lovley women living next door, what a great feeling to have friends like that and what a help in a time of need.

I to go to work now but will be back later. If I see my oldest son I am going to ask him about the turtle he saw. He and his brother went to the Galopocois Islands not long ago and they went to see this turtle which I am sure he said is the oldest one alive. I didn't pay much attention to him but now I am going to ask him to tell me again. I should see one of them in my travels today. Bad weather here icy and 4 snow flakes which puts everyone in a panic here.

Back in the late sixties when we lived in San Diego, there was a large elderly turtle in the children's zoo. I think it was called a Galapagos tortoise, over a hundred years. All the little children got on its back for pictures.

I started rereading Beach House last night. I am up to the chapter where Lovey and the girls are planning the fourth of July party to celebrate the renovations to the house.

I, too, think the parallel between Toy and Miss Lovie and Cara is a great way to show the horrors of abuse, Alf. Showing Toy that way is a better way to help her stay away from abusive situation, rather than lecturing her. I've learned that many women in abusive situations resist help or escape because they blame themselves--and don't want to admit that the abusive partner will do it again. Sue

"The loggerhead depostis her leathery, Ping-Pong sized eggs into the nest cavity, laying two, three or four at a time. She will lay eighty to one hundred and fifty eggs in EACH nest."

Holy smokes, having one at a time was enough for me. Wouldn't it be so cool to be able to see that happening? Horselover's granddaughter must have been in awe.

Now that Cara's been inducted into the "turtle team" Lovie passes on the badge of honor to her-- the torch, if you will. She demonstrates to Cara how to use the probe stick and says "...what are people rushing toward? Life isn't some kind of race. We all cross the finish line, sooner or later. You'd hate to get the end in sight and suddenly wish you'd walked rather than run, wouldn't you?"

I wish I had had that advise for the past 40+ years. Hurry , hurry hurry and where did I get? Just a little bit closer to that finish line. Do we defeat the whole purpose of "living" when we can't enjoy the moment? The conclusion is inevitable so why get there at an accelerated pace? Shall we pause a moment and think about this? Must we all be at the stage of certitude before we stop to smell the roses?

Ms. Lovie, in this novel knows she's reached the age of certitude, Ginny. She's got inoperable lung cancer with metastasis.

Do you feel that life is some kind of a race Ginny? I guess it is as we bolt and bluster about. I think what she's trying to convey here is the fact that we need to stop scampering about so and enjoy the moment. We need more undisturbed peace time in our lives- a quiet , reflective time to be serene and appreciative of what we have. I agree with her. It just "ain't me!"

You have fought the fight Ginny, keep the faith, you'll get it! LOL

Lovie's message is different now at the end of her life than it was say 10 years before and even more different than it was 25 years before, especially now that she knows she is dying.

Now that she knows it, Cara's estrangement from her becomes an unacceptable unfinished business. What does it matter if Lovie didn't do what she should have done years ago when Cara was a child? It didn't matter did it?. Now, all the energy she has left goes into the struggle to renew her bonds with her daughter, a daughter that perhaps is much more like herself at the same age than she thinks.

She can cope with Cara's fiery temper and resentment at what happened in the past. Lovie will take anything from Cara now, risk everything for these last precious moments she can still have with her. Telling her before that she was dying would only alter Cara's attitude toward her, which would be a sentiment of pity rather than one of love.

Lovie wanted at all costs to dig out the love that Cara still had down deep inside for her. She had nothing to lose and everything to gain. She could die in the arms of a loving daughter who would, in the process of finding her love for her mother find who she really was.

The turtles in nature provide the "instruction manual" for the dynamic of what life is all about.

Welcome Horselover. I'm so glad your book has finally arrived. Jump in anywhere that you would like. This is an informal discussion and any comments, at any juncture, are most welcome.

While she labors, the loggerhead's eyes stream with tears. These "turtle tears" are produced to rid her body of excess salt from drinking salt water.

Brett Beauchamps, the Echo-tour boat guide, ex-jock and biology major enters the picture and while piggy-backing Cara through shrubs, etc. shows her his "Garden of Eden." He tells her not to worry that he'll take care of her and protect her. Ahhh, now that's magical to me.

This Brett looks like a keeper to me. I am very sad about Lovie's sickness but some will say its a good thing to know so that you can prepare and say good-bye's and so on. Didn't work for me when my husband passed he tried to talk to me about it and I just couldn't do it. Still makes me sick every day.

Andrea I am sorry about my participation as a supposed co DL I have totally sucked at it and I am sorry.

We were talking earlier about time and priorities and I think I need some time and need to get myself straightened out. I work hard during the day and driving in this area is a challenge at all times. Between that and my Mother when I get home I just want to crash. I have made a resolution to commit my self to nothing any more that has a time table. I even hate to make an appt to have my hair cut. I know I am whining but I feel bad Andy about not helping you out.

Loggerhead Turtle Photojournal -- http://maryalicemonroe.epagecity.com/site/epage/4321_67.htm

Island Turtle Team -- http://home.comcast.net/~bergwerf1/

Those are wonderful sites Pat

Thanks so much

What a great URL you have provided us with . thankyou ever so much.

It reminds me so much of N. Myrtle Beach where we lived for 5 years. The beaches look just like those in the pictures. I miss it a great deal and didn't ralize just how much until I looked at this site Pat provided. It's too bad that we can't be there in July.

Don't be silly Judy, you needn't apologize.

Fascinating sites, Pat. I can't remember, but do they only hatch at night? I don't know why I'm thinking that. Poor turtles. We have made things difficult for them, haven't we. When you think of what the same beach would have been like 100, 200 years ago, and all that man has done to it in the past 75 -- if it were'nt for the turtle teams many of those nests would just get trampled.

Wonderful link Pat, thank you so much, it is a revelation to me living so far north. I never even heard that turtles could weigh 300 pounds, imagine lugging that weight up the beach to nest.

Yes Pedln, what have we done to destroy this fabulous specie. Turtle teams must have a hard time trying to protect the eggs until they hatch. I will never look at a turtle again in the same light.

"The eggs will incubate in the sandy nest for fifty-five to sixty days, unless disturbed by a predator. Turtle eggs are gourmet meals for raccoons and ghost crabs. Dogs, cants, feral hogs and vultures will also hunt the eggs. Eggs poaching by humans is common in areas, as well."

Now why in the world would any person want to poach turtle eggs? To eat them? Hatch them?? why?

Cara stays with her mother at the "Beach House" and offers to fund the refurbishing of the cottage. Life springs forth when she finds a straggler of a rose bush that Lovie had tended to before hurricane Hugo. (We lived in N. Myrtle Beach during Hugo and it was my first experience with the devestation that such a storm could bring.) It did more than wreck havoc with rosebushes, I saw hotel swimming pools literally being lifted out of their postions and thrown 2 blocks backward onto the boulevard. Unbelievable ruinination. I can barely phanthom what this tsunami did.

Alf, perhaps the person who poaches turtle eggs is like the person who keeps or sells endangered animals on the black market for pets.I think these people are just out to make a buck. Shame on them! If they were taking turtle eggs because they had nothing to eat, that would be a different story.

Horselover, I agree with your comments about the love of place. When I was a teen, I could hardly wait to leave my little hometown. Now I'm glad that many of my old friends are still living there and I can visit. In Beach House and Gone with the Wind there is a strong sense of belonging to a particular place. I think Beach Girls and Beach Music have this emotional sense of place as parts of their plots also. Sue

It seems to me that whenever I feel really sad. there is always something in the posts that seem to help. Firstly I had some unexpected sad news this morning from my colleague at Copernicus.(I'm working from home today) One of our coaches died very suddenly on Tuesday, another instructor is hospitalized after a freak accident. So I went back to the book, which I am re-reading. I noticed in one of the posts the question of "Goodbyes". I must share with you.. 6 years ago this week my husband died here at home, he was in hospice care..the 4 children all were here and we had a Polish Scout celebration for him the night before he died, the kids sang his favorite songs and shared their scouting experiences with him and many, many good memories.After the "Cicha Noc" with all of us holding hands, they gave him permission to leave. He died peacefully a few hours later. Colkot

What a wonderful tribute you have just paid to your husband. As a nurse you have no idea the numerous times families were unable or unwilling to spend those final moments with the one they loved. You gave him, yourself and your children great peace. Bless you and may your heart be light, in your knowing how much this means.

This book has also taken on a different light for me as I recently lost a dear friend from high school. He married one of my best friends right after high school. They divorced about 15 years ago and then remarried about 3 years ago. He was just diagnosed with melenoma and died within 3 months time. 62 years old!
When I spoke with his wife she said that she and her two daughters were able to keep him at home, nursing him, medicating him and just talking with him declaring their love. Her grief is strong but she is at peace. So will our Cara and Ms. Lovie. Thank you for sharing your grief with us, it does help.

I can relate to your experience, too, although you were fortunate to have your husband at home. We had similar experiences, though.

I've had some sad moments rereading Beach House, also. I lost my husband in Feb. 2002 and the last days of Lovie brought it back again. My husband died in a hospital after collapsing at the Oncology Clinic, but by strength of will stayed alive another week so that our sons and I could all be with him to share his last hours. The grandchildren and 2 of the daughters in-law spent time with him, too, as well as several friends and our pastor. He made it easy for all of us and died peacefully. We are grateful we had that time with him. I miss him every day, but this holiday season has been particularly hard for some reason. Sue

"The temperature of the sand during incubation plays a role in determining the sex of the hatchling. Cool sand produces males, while hotter sand brings females."

That doesn't surprise me- women are warmer in many ways; they are more kindly, compassionate and gracious I think. Cara notes that while Brett cooks a crab dinner for her- most men would have "phoned out" for the meal. She also proclaims that she feels safe with Brett and tells him about her relationship with the corporate-man, Richard. I don't believe I've ever done that. Have any of you told your sad story to another man? I guess I figure he wouldn't give a damn anyway.
"Brett was nothing remotely like any other man she'd dated."

When Cara tells him about the status of her mother's health she states "but sixty nine is so young. It's not fair." Oh -- how often have we all said that about life not being fair.?
You can't help but feel sad for this girl. She loves her mother, she is afraid and she knows she is about to lose her. That is a very sad (inevitable) point to reach in life.

I think we all get there sooner or later Andy I am that we all will face losing our Mother at one time or other. I know Ginny already has. I will have to with my birth MOther but shes not really here now but we go through the motions and I hope she isn't too unhappy til her last days. She complains without ceasing about just sitting on the couch but as we tell her its a person choice she could make some decisions that would make her life a nice experience, but she will not so we are somewhat resigned to let her do it her way. I certianly hope when I get there I am not that stubborn, I told her the second I can't drive and do for myself I am going straight to an assisted living. She doesn't believe me but thats my plan. With my luck I will be like her before I know it and won't be able to do anything about it. Although my oldest son knows all my wishes and that he's better carry them out or I will come back and haunt him.

Don't you love the flower garden that Cara is makeing and the roses being salvaged from her Mothers old garden. That must make her Mother very happy.

Am busy getting things ready for South Carolina what fun that will be.

Unfortunately, my only brother is much like Palmer and has now isolated himself from me and his children.

That's tough, Alf. Reaching out to someone like that is very difficult--and often not worth the trouble they give you. You have my sympathy.

I haven't seen any mention of Pat Conroy's Beach Music recently in the Books at the Beach discussion. I started reading it last night, thought I'd read it before, but now believe I was remembering The Prince of Tides. Conroy really gets to the emotional almost immediately, doesn't he? I'm finding this book fascinating, also. Sue

Honestly Sue. I read all three of the books mentioned above and Mary Alice Munroe was the only author who gave the time, courtesy and consideration to speak with us at the beach. Why then -- is the story not to discuss? I know that this isn't the popular thought but it's mine!

I removed the other two books from the heading of Books at the Beach at GINNY's request. The 3 books were originally put up there for people to choose which one to discuss at the beach and it seems that everyone is reading all of the books.

HORSELOVER: I have had an experience of "picking up where we left off" when talking to cousins. My mother and cousins are all the "growing up" family I have left. I have two cousins who are almost a generation younger than I am and it seems that now it is easier to talk to them than to the others. We do not keep in touch. Several of them are in touch with my mother and I appreciate that. Mother was 95 last summer and is still living in her home with a full-time caretaker.

Oh, okay, Alf and Marjorie. I guess I missed the news that the other 2 books were removed from the list. It doesn't matter to me if we don't discuss them there. I've enjoyed reading them--and frankly, I feel somewhat intimidated in face to face book discussions anyway. Sue

Sue, you and I can sit in the back row and listen when they have the book discussion.

Heck Sue. We don't have to do anything! We can all sit back and let the author do the talking, unless we have questions of course.
Don't be intimidated you two. Now Pat, I know you and I know you don't intimidate easily. I've tried it.

The women find poor pregnant (hormonal) Toy crying over the her lack of sewing skills "Nothing worth doing is ever easy" Lovie tells her.

Who believes that? Is that true? If it comes easy to some does that mean it's not worth the doing?

Andy, I think that statement implies that you do your best, even if you have to work hard at it. Those who find a task "easy" still take care with it and make sure it is done right.

Poor Toy. She doesn't know what will happen to her if Miss Lovie goes. Is that why she goes back to her boyfriend and father of her child? She thinks it's her only choice.

PEDLN: I think you are correct. Toy doesn't see that she has any options.

Creepy 24 year old Daryl, the rock artist, is planning to head on to California and Toy relays to Cara how she felt lonely for him and called him letting the cat is out of the bag letting him know where she is living. Over lunch Cara more or less adopts this girl after they had "both exposed their vulnerability."

I liked the way Monroe had Cara develop into a more caring person, especially where Toy was concerned. Her behavior toward Toy at first was appalling, but did add tension to the plot.

I'm going to my book club at the library this evening. We've gone to each bringing a book or books on a theme and sharing some of it with others. Before I joined this small group they tried all reading the same book during the month, but had problems getting enough copies for each, so went to themes instead. Tonight we're discussing books about travel or travel guides. One friend is going to review Stienbeck's Travels with Charlie. I'm trying to catch up on my Latin homework and other assignments so will probably just show some travel guides I like. We have 2 college professors of children's literature in the group. One is also a writer--now talk about intimidation! Sue

horselover: Where there's a will- there's a relative. Isn't Palmer obnoxious ?

"Up to eighteen thousand loggerheads per season nest in the SE United States, the bulk of them on the eastern beaches of Florida. Sea turtles travel long distances as they migrate between theri feeing grounds and nesting beaches. Although there are many theories, no one is certain how the tuntles navigate their way."

The crew is rebuilding Lovie's beloved beach house, making her feel alive again. she directed the planting of the palms and chose the perfect color for the house. Each day when she awoke she was happy to still be alive; happy to be just waking up!

If you've read Beach Music, you know that Jack's mother Lucy is dying with Leukemia, and is sort of a turtle lady (she doesn't abide by the rules very well). I'm at the point where they are giving her a big farewell party--the sons are doing all the cooking and planning as she loves to be the center of attention and especially loves to party. So some of this book has a similar theme to Beach House although there are many other themes in this one, just as there are in Monroe's.

I loved the part where Cara and her friends started refurbishing the cottage. You could just see the happiness glow in Lovie's eyes.

My library book club is planning to read and discuss Beach House next month after I get back from the Isle of Palms (Isle of Orion in Conroy's book). Sue

SUE: If you are lucky, Mary Alice Monroe will be at the Beach when you are there and you will be able to tell your book club what the author has said about the book.

I agree Sue, Lovie came to life, enthused and inspired, didn't she? Each job the crew completed, Lovie relished in, as her spirits soared. How sad for her, knowing and witnessing the finality of more than the refurbishing of her beloved Beach House.
All of the sudden she started feeling sorry for herself. (Who can blame her for that?) She's made amends with her estranged daughter. She's able to once again enjoy her cottage and now she is facing the untimate end.

"Hatching time approaches. Inside the nest the baby turtle pecks at its shell with an egg tooth. The hatchling will remain underground for several days to absorb every bit of the important youl sack for the energy to survive. It also needs to allow its curved shell to straighten."

Who so you think the author is symbolically referring to here? Lovie or Cara who begins to grow stronger with each passing day?

Alf, I think that quote could refer to both Lovie and Cara. To Lovie because she is mentally preparing herself for the end and to Cara because she has begun to mature emotionally. In a way, they are both similar to the young turtle who has certain growth patterns to attend to in order to survive (or make it--which would more apply to Lovie, as she is not going to survive death, but will make it to a different realm).

Marjorie, I'd love to be there when Mary Alice Monroe is there, but I doubt that she will get there on Saturday or Sunday, the only days I will be there. I'm leaving on Monday morning to visit our BB Sharon for lunch and then driving on down to Florida to spend a few days with my sister, Anne. Sue

Shoot! Sue, I don't know when she is scheduled to visit us.
{Perhaps JUDY can help us with that one. )

It doesn't matter-- the end is near- for Lovi, for Cara-for all of us. HOw fortunate for Lovie that she knows her days are numbered.

Well I can't help you much. I e-mailed MAM tuesday and am waiting for her reply as to which day she can see us. She usually answers quite soon so lets hope its in the next couple of days.

ALF: Your last post said How fortunate for Lovie that she knows her days are numbered. I am thinking about that. I wonder whether I would want to know or just go. I don't have my book anymore and don't remember whether Lovie had written her will, etc., before she had her diagnosis or only after. There was a health scare in this household last fall and, slowly, we are getting all necessary documents prepared. In my case there are no adult children living close enough to name in my will to handle executor duties (like Palmer). I don't like Palmer and his relationship with his mother and sister. However, I envy Lovie that he is there even though she is having to "fight for her independence" from his control. Lovie knows what she wants, or that is how I remember the book.

Marjorie- I, for one, would definitely want to know. I think it is imperative for people not to ignore this final obligation that they have to family. I have been left with four househoulds to sift through and it is not a pleasant place to be when you don't know the wishes of people.

Lovie relished her solitude at this point and prays for her children's happiness. Who doesn't wish peace and contentment for their children, especially knowing that you will not live to see that dream fulfilled?

When Lovie encounters Palmer back at the cottage(the 4th of July party at the beach) she thinks of what a joy the boy has been to her and how much he has done for her. She smelled alcohol on his breath and thought "nothing flamed the fires like a dousing of alcohol." (Any of us who have been through that debacle will testify to the effects, I'm sure.) Lovie tells Palmer of Cara and Brett's involvement as he marvels at the new Beach House look. She then informs him that she is aware of his misappropriation of her funds and her intentions to take care of her own accounts . She has visited her lawyer and the cottage will be willed to Cara, when she passes on.

My admiration for Lovie grew when she had the 4th of July confrontation with Palmer. She'd been a doormat for most of her life, first to the husband and then to Palmer. I was proud of her for seeing the lawyer, chastising Palmer, and leaving the beach house to Cara.

I agree with Alf that it is best to make plans for the end. My late husband did that and although it was terrible to watch him die, he left us a wonderful gift with written records of things he wanted to do for us. I have updated my will (and am thinking of making another change), obtained a new durable power of attorney which includes medical decisions, and have told my children what I'd like to happen as far as memorial service and my remains. I hope and pray they will not squabble. I want them to be lifelong friends, but sometimes I've observed that is not possible for some families, no matter how well the end is planned. BTW, my lawyer advised me to keep the will in the freezer and not in my safe deposit box. He said that if there is a fire, the contents of the freezer will not burn. It's in a ziplock bag in there and my sons know where it is. The one who will be my executor has a copy in his safe deposit box. Sue

There was another brief mention of loggerheads on the news last night. It came up so quickly that I did not catch all of it. It started out in Florida, but also spoke of Europe and Asia. So I don't know if the reporter was referring only to Florida or to all places when he said the number of nests had dropped from 18,000 to 8,000.

Pedln, I was in the kitchen, but heard on NBC Nightly News that loggerhead nesting areas in Florida had been ruined by this year's hurricanes. I think they are worried that the loggerheads won't come back next year. I didn't hear anything about Europe or Asia. Sue

"The hatchlings remain quiet during the heat of the day, but at night, they scrape with their flippers, plowing through broken shells and compact sand, working as a team. This causes the floor of the nest to slowly rise to the surface."

Yes Sue, Lovie is also plowing through her shell, isn't she, with Palmer and Cara senseds that something has transpired between the two of them. Just as there was a clear sign something was happening at the nests as the babies sat under the sand--- waiting, in readiness to race to the sea!!!


Darryl appears at the beach Housewhile pregnant Toy studies hard, working toward her GED. Once again, the desire for him is too strong and she leaves her homework behind to go with him.

I don't think it is so much Toy's desire for Darryl that takes her back to him, but her fears about what will happen to her when Lovie dies. She just wants to be loved and hopes that Darryl will give her that. Poor thing is blind to his real, selfish persona. Sue

Sue, didn't you love it when Toy starts taking note of Darryl's many shortcomings; talking with his mouth full, his torn clothing and hisincessant cussing.

The hatchlings are drawn to the brightest light. In nature, this is the white light of the moon or stars over the ocean. Artificial lighting can confuse the hatchlings and lead them to death in tangles of beach grass or on busy streets.

The torch is now passed from Lovie, to Cara and on to Linnea as the turtle ladies move into the final season. "There's an ancient myth that says the earth rests on the back of an old turtle and this ancient turtle mama takes care of the eggs while the other mother turtle waddles off."

Cara reslished the moments with Brett as he taught her spontaniety. She had the Carolina moon, the water, sunsets-- she had bliss. The mother turtles depart on their journey and Lovie's health declines shortly after that. She cried to Cara that she wanted to follow her instincts and swim away with them in the currents. She had been so stoic , pressing forth with such optimism, they all believed she might live forever. She grew moody, lost weight and became withdrawn, "drawing inward, swimming in her own currents."

I found Lovie's death very sad. Monroe has a way with words and her characterizations worked very well with this turtle theme. She seems to be a devoted turtle lady, herself. Sue

"The minutes spent dashing from the nest to the sea are very dangerous in a turtle's life. Ghost crabs tiptoe across the beahc to attack the hatchlings. Only one in thousands of hatchlings may survive to maturity."

Lovie's dismisses radiation Rx for her inoperable cancer that has now metastesized into her trachea. Cara visits her brother and informs him of their mother's illness, asking him to come visit Lovie. He instead sends a bouquet of flowers.

Does the bouquet show Palmer's sensitivity or lack thereof? Of course. Did Lovie appreciate the flowers. Of course. Despite her new found knowledge of Palmer's spending of her money, she still excused his social behaviors. Do you think it's because of her generation or her total love for Palmer?

My grandmother had 2 sons, lost her husband in an accident when my Daddy, the baby, was 6 months old. She lost her older son in an accident when he was 18. Was my Daddy spoiled? Yes. Did she excuse him from almost every responsibility? Yes. After my mother left him (and us) Grandma took us in, Daddy joined the Navy, and after the War really left all responsibility to her. If we criticized him in any way, she was upset. I don't think I ever heard her criticize Daddy for anything except his choice of wives. His second died early, his third was bossy. She just never thought any woman was good enough for her baby. Maybe Lovie has similar feelings about Palmer. Sue

I think it is so sad that a son could not face the fact that his mother was dying and refused to come to see her. He must have been so scared. Colkot

Cara has had a tough time hasn't she? Her ex-boyfriend strolled into the Beach House with her brother Palmer. He came with a job proposal in Chicago which she accepted.She then abruptly dismissed Richard knowing that there would never be a future between them. "Chicago here she comes" forcing her to decline Brett's proposal for marriage.

Her best friend Emmi is leaving to return to Atlanta and to her husband. A hurricane warning has been issued and a mandated evacuation of the barrier island has been called for. Man- I lived in Mrytle Beach during Hugo and I got the chills reading about hurricane Brendon's approaching ferocity. Toy has left with Darryl, leaving all of the security and love behind her, boarded up and shuttered. "Closed to her forever."

I was so disgusted with Palmer for bringing Richard to the beach house. Although Richard was doing the pursuing, I think Palmer thought if he could get rid of Cara, he could again get his way with Lovie.

The impending hurricane is scary--We had the inland version at our farm a few years ago. No flooding, but trees were falling all over the place, one right between our car and truck with no damage to either. Wind burst like mini tornados made twisty paths through our woods and our electricity was off for 6 days.

If you know Red Van Lady, a SeniorNetter who lives in Florida, you may not know that she is still trying to get repairs made to her mobile home. It sounds just terrible and many of the contractors are gouging the people who haven't yet received the help they need. Hurricanes are a bad business. Sue

"Hatchlings dine on small snails, macroplankton and invertebrates. After they reach adulthood, their powerful jaws can cruch heavy-shelled crustaceans and creatures that seside in reefs and rocks. Jellyfish are like candy treats."

While hankering down together against the powerful storm Lovie tells Cara of her adulterous relationship with the love of her life, Russell- the naturalist (the man in the photo.) She told of how she missed her last chance of salvation if she had told her husband the truth of her relationship but she was "too timid" to confront him, a coward. He physically abused her that night, breaking her ribs, ribs and her spirit! She accepted her fate as she felt it was well deserved for breaking her vows and trust. He threatened to take the children if she attempted to divorce him and expose her as an unfit mother and a whore. This guy is a beaut, isn't he? In todays world we would make mince meat out of this guy. Anyway she did not keep her vow to meet Russell at the BH in the six months period that they had alloted and consumed herself with her children's lives, shielding them from the truth. (she thought) Love tells Cara "Cancer is eating away my body, but anger will eat away your soul".

I believe if Lovie had made a confession to her husband in a confrontation, the result would have been the same. Cara's father was a total jerk and was upset with Lovie because her brief adultery demonstrated a loss of control for him. We have the evidence of his being a control freak in the stories of Cara and Palmer as well as of Lovie. However, I think she did the best she felt she could do with the rest of her life. Poor guilt ridden woman. Sue

I agree 100%- he was a "putz!"

Yep, a real Putz, Alf. I thought my family was the only one that used the word "Putz"! Small world, isn't it? I'm looking forward to meeting you tomorrow. Sue

Should we take a vote? How many people use the word "putz"? I do too. Actually, I haven't thought of that word in a long time but it is just perfect for this situation.

I hope all of you who are going to the Beach have a wonderful time.

Hi all - I read the book awhile back, but have been following this discussion, and remembering how much I enjoyed it. The recent comments on Palmer's reaction to Lovie's illness, reminded me of my own brother, who had a similar reaction when my mother was dying of ovarian cancer. When I would call him, and tell him how poorly she was doing, he would become overly cheerful, and say upbeat things like, "Mother's strong - she'll survive this thing"! I would try to remain calm and explain to him that she was terminal, and in the process of dying. But he still simply wouldn't, or couldn't, face the hard facts. I wonder if this is a "man thing" ... total denial?

Hi MARILYNE. Most of those who were in this discussion are in South Carolina today at the Beach. I don't know if they have computer access there or not.

I have a feeling that the denial you mentioned when you compared Palmer with your brother is not just a "male" thing. I just hope that I never get in that position. One where what is actually happening isn't in my mind. It is fairly easy to see someone else in denial. I wonder how I would recognize it if I was doing it.

I last read the book a couple of months ago and then sent my copy to one of the other participants. I wish I had taken the time to find a library copy.

I liked this book and have read many of the books by this author. She does such a good job. I am not a writer so a book is wondrous to me: how the author gets their ideas; then puts the story down so each word has such meaning; and how one sentence (or chapter) flows into the next. My talents lie elsewhere. Writing a story or novel is a mystery to me.

WE are here at the Beach House and had the supreme delight of meeting with the author of this book. She brought a slide presentation of the loggerhead turtles and met with our entire group. Also in attendance was Barbara Bergwerf who is the SC state aquarium photographer and a member of the "turtle team" here on the Isle of Palms. They were fabulous and so much fun to visit with. Mary Alice is writing another novel and asked for our input. She asked what was important to us in the reading of her sequel and gave us a sneak preview as to the choice of title and addition of new characters. She is a great listener and told us that "the best writers are the best listeners." I loved that. She discussed the character ARC which I still wonder if its the same as character developement and got so enthralled with her presentation I forgot to ask her. She was actually interested in us and asked where we were from and she gave us three autographed books to auction off. We will take the proceeds of that auction and send them on to the aquarium. We took volumes of pictures, some of which will be on her website. We were cordially invited to the aquarium to go "behind the scenes." It was so exciting to see the four named turtles that the aquarium has rescued and adopted. Barbara graciously toured us behind the scenes and answered all of our many questions. Barbara explained how expensive this is to feed and house these turtles and that their wish is to be able to "tag" one of the turtles "Dewey" that was a hatchling. If this was affordable they could track this turtle via satellite. Wouldn't that be great if we could adopt Dewey? Mary Alice and Barbara are both so down to earth and we were all so impressed with their love of the beach and this beautiful island. We are in their debt for their generosity.

Thank you all so much for your input and your comments. I wish each of you could be here. This discussion will now be concluded. See you in "Runaway."

We are all vicariously enjoying your stay at the beach. I hope you will send more pictures and a detailed report !!

MARJORIE, I have never heard of "putz", haven't had time to look it up, but then, how many of you know what "basta" means, or how common the term "mamma mia" is ?

TRAUDE: I found this definition on the Internet: Putz: ... Used to describe a nasty, unlikable man. A putz generally has no real power, except to make your life miserable or at least unpleasant, often in a passive-aggressive way. http://www.bubbygram.com/yiddishglossary.htm I don't understand "basta" but have heard the term "mamma mia" only I won't try to define it.

Thank you all for your participation. This discussion is now closed and will be archived.