Becoming Madame Mao ~ Anchee Min ~ 11/00 ~ Fiction Export

New Fiction by Anchee Min - Becoming Madame Mao Click for 1st Chapter

In a sweeping story that moves gracefully from the intimately personal to the great stage of world history, Anchee Min renders a powerful tale of passion, betrayal, and survival and creates a finely nuanced and always ambiguous portrait of one of the most fascinating women of the twentieth century. Madame Mao is almost universally known as the "white-boned demon" - ambitious, vindictive, and cruel - whose bid to succeed her husband led to the death of millions. But Min's story begins with a young girl named Yunhe, the unwanted daughter of a concubine who ignored the pleas of her mother and refused to have her feet bound. It was the first act of rebellion for this headstrong, beautiful, and charismatic girl who fled the miseries of her family life, first to a provincial opera troupe, then to Shanghai and fame as an actress, and finally to the arid, mountainous regions of Yenan, where she fell in love with and married Mao Zedong.

The Author: Born in Shanghai in 1957, Anchee Min has a personal connection to the story of Madame Mao. At seventeen, she was sent to a labor collective, where after a number of years a talent scout recruited her for Madame Mao's Shanghai Film Studio. There she was trained to play the protagonists in Madame Mao's propaganda films and personally met Jiang Ching and others in her circle, who later provided Min with stories and insights. Min came to the United States in 1984 with the help of the actress Joan Chen. Her memoir, RED AZALEA, was named a New York Times Notable Book of 1994 and was an international bestseller, with rights sold in twenty countries. Her first novel, KATHARINE, was published in 1997. She resides in New York.

We're OPEN for discussion NOW. EVERYONE is Welcome

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Links of interest:

Stefan Landsberger's Chinese Propaganda Poster Pages Art*i*Facts from the Cultural Revolution

CharlieW

Oh wow- this is beautiful! You all are so creative with these pages. Can't believe that folk won't sign up in droves for this one. What intrigues me is that this is such recent historical fiction and what we read and and discuss here will be so relevant for our times. I think over at Powell.com they either have a current or archived interview with the author.

YES! Charles this sounds great - school starts this week in our parts so my life may slow a bit to include just such a read because I can see now all the research it will prompt. Count me in.

Well, shoot. I was underwhelmed by the reviews, so I'm torn. Would love to learn about this woman, but I understand that the writer may be better at research than presentation. I suppose we could agree ahead of time to be tolerant of the writing. Don't count me in yet.

Hey Barbara nice to "see" you. Yep I'll be looking forward to your research also. Too bad you had no time for FLU- as usual an amazing discussion over there. So we're on for October?

Hey Barbara nice to "see" you. Yep I'll be looking forward to your research also. Too bad you had no time for FLU- as usual an amazing discussion over there. So we're on for October?

Betty- hmm don't worry about the reviewer's, we'll overcome any flaws with a lively discussion.

I really like historical novels. I think I'll try to find this book in the library. I also love this header. It really is beautiful.

You're right, betty. Some of the reviews aren't very complimentary about the author's writing style (this is not unanimous, though). But the subject interests me. And I have to say that the author's background is just so intriguing that it pushes me over the edge and makes me want to read it.

Thanks for the compliments on the heading of this proposed discussion, by the way. There is a guy on the internet that has quite a site on Chinese political propaganda posters - historically fascinating and striking. I'll link it up if we agree to go forward with this one.

Betty have you read any other books by this author - it appears there is a novel called Katherine all I can learn about it is it's about a young chinese woman.

Well discussion or not, I just ordered the book. Recieved my monthly newsletter from Powells and ordered a used hardback copy. In addition ordered another bio written in 1992 and another book about Mao comparing him to the rebelous leader of an old dynasty that I am not familiar with but thought would be interesting to learn.

He, Red China and Madam Mao have all been on the bad guy slate for so long it will be interesting to start sorting through and see what happened and if it was just cold war stuff or real bad guy stuff.

YiLi - Please check you e-mail address. I always get "undeliverable". Please post it here or click on my name and send it to me. Thanks.

Charlie I got my book today from Bibliofind for 12.95. It says first edition yata yata. I am not into that first edition stuff but if its 112.95 works for me.

Good find, Judy. I'd seen it at Powell's (used) for $14.95. I also discovered another place, e-campus (one of the ad-all bookstores)that doesn't charge for shipping.

Thanks Charlie wish I had known about the no charge for shipping place an hour ago hehe

where is the no shipping fee bookstore? this weekend i had the great honor of talking with a professor, newly arrived from china. he appeared "ageless" and peppered our conversation with references to Mao. sometimes in our reading it is important to consider whether historical fiction or historical fact that these tales have historical impact on individual lives. i think that is what has made me a recent fan of these works- where south american, chinese, indian, african etc.- the books are more than a peak into another culture.

No shipping added: "Campus Bookstore"

Charlie got my book yesterday. Not sure If I can wait its looks like a really good book. If its been read I sure can't tell it. I got it at Valley Books in Amherst Ma. from a place for Used, Out of Print, Antiquarian & Discount books. WWW.valleybooks.com. I actually found the book on Bibliofind but bought it from Valley Books

Charlie thank you for the beautiful e-mail, can we look forward to more of those from now til the 22nd?

Charlie I didn't get a beautiful e-mail. Where's mine??(g)

Judy-
Sent to your yahoo account. You didn't get it?

The subject interests me too, I've put this book on my list of books I want to read. A really lovely heading by-the-way.

Charlie W. - I hope you provide a link to the Chinese political propaganda posters......I've always been interested in oriental art.

Thanks for all your kind words on the header - it is appreciated. I have included a link to a wonderful site of Chinese Propaganda Poster Pages. It's quite a collection of stunning images, and some great examples of the genre. It's huge (140 pages/16 Mb of images) and quite well oprganized and maintained. This guy obviously is an avid collector. Enjoy.

EmmaBarb- Forgot to welcome you here. Hope you can join us for the book discussion. That's quite a favorite url collection you have there yourself!

Charlie W. - Thank you. I was curious and did a search on my own. That was the same website I came up with. I only looked at the first couple of pages.

Oh, the propoganda posters, and especially the text written to explain them, are so interesting!! So many thoughts. Some faces have a western, euro-anglo look. Many posters show baby boys as the "one child." Also, I wonder if China---because of its long obsession with birth control, use of condoms, etc.---has avoided the spread of AIDS in ways other less developed countries have not.

Many of the posters are so beautiful just as art.

Looking at these reminds me that we have our own propoganda-like images, don't we? The newly dedicated housewife of the 50s? Current muscled and beauty images? Sports hero images for decades. Whole WWII movies might qualify.

Oh, my. From EmmaBarb's site:
China Upholds Death Sentence For Corrupt Legislator

Now THAT's tempting!

Charlie

Really liked Red Azalea so now I am on Katherine. It looks to be very good too.

Phew! Judy! You are THE voracious reader!!

ooohhh Betty thank you so much for reminding us of western propoganda-i will keep these thoughts in mind when i read. but i absolutely won't even peak until i finish the Z Smith book.

I have my book "Becoming Madame Mao"....I hope to get into it as soon as I finish Ben Bradlee's "A Good Life" which is also being discussed here on SeniorNet.

My local library just came through with a copy of Madame Mao, so I'm looking forward to getting into it, and joining you all here for a good discussion.

š ...jane›

Welcome...jane.
Charlie

Hi, I'm a new member to the group. I was introduced to this site through a fellow member of the Plymouth Public Library Book Discussion Group. I am 5 chapters into this book and find it a great page turner. It leaves me wanting to know more about China and its history. I never knew there was such a thing as feet binding!

Hellooooo, Donna Mac, and welcome to the Books & Lit!

We are thrilled to see you here and KUDOS to your sharp Plymouth Public Library Book Discussion Group!!! YESSSSSSSs! That's the time!!

A referral! I believe you are our first referral and we hope you will not be our last, pull up a seat and prepare, our Charlie is doing the Madame Mao and he's as good as they come!

Please look around and join in everywhere!

We are so glad you're with us!

ginny

And you know, on that footbinding, I had heard of it, but I never realized WHAT it was? Oh it's a horror, I just recently found out what was actually done (in one of our bookclubs, to tell the truth) and it's a HORROR.

I mean I don't really see how anybody could find that attractive!

ginny

DonnaMac- Welcome. So glad you dropped in. Please do join with us when we begin our discussion of this book. Seems we have been on a bit of a China binge lately...The Good Earth...Waiting...make sure and drop in anywhere on the site - there are plenty of discussions in all genres going on and you'll be welcome in all of them.
Charlie

Chinatown Online....there is an interesting link on "Opera".

That's a great site EmmaBarb. There's also a link to a slide show of "Old, New and Timeless China."

Charlie

Charlie -- I know. Isn't that terrific. I love the "Timeless China" pictures.

Good Sunday Morning, all, Hi Donna; Dear new friends, yes I "recruited" Donna -- well, not really. I merely sang (exuberantly, clearly convincingly) the praises of this enormous literary territory which I had discovered myself not so very long ago ! I thought that the aol SN component was all there was ! Gosh, was I ever wrong ! Naivete personified, you might say ...

Well, I was anxious to read Becoming Madame Mao because I thought it would be great as a followup and/or comparison with WAITING by Ha Jin, which I found extraordinary.

Alas, I cannot seem to get into Madame Mao for some unknown reason. Of course I'll try again. Perhaps I was (am?) still too involved with or engaged in THE HUMAN STAIN. But no, I don't give up that easily ! Traude

What a wonderful testimony you are Traude to our exemplary literature site. Thank you so much for the Kudos above. A warm welcome to Donna.

Now I really got into Madame Mao. Perhaps I can identify with the deceitful and duplicitous characters. Hmm! I wonder if that tells a bit about my subconscious ?

Traude, I only read about three pages, I am enjoying Anil's Ghost- a library book due back- but stick with Madame Mao- just the few pages I read sure suggests we will have an amazing discussion.

Traude - Funny, I've just had Judy (who had planned to join us)in White Teeth tell us that she just didn't care for it. That happens. I've had ...Madame Mao on my shelf for some time now. Suppose I'll start it next week. All books are not for everybody. But as you say, maybe the next time you pick-it up it'll grab you.

Of course, ALF, you know we sometimes think of you as our very own "white-boned devil"!!-

Charlie

I've been reading Becoming Madame Mao and have mixed feelings about it. It is so different from my culture it's hard for me to imagine.

Mixed feelings sometimes make for great discussions, though. Again - I haven't started this yet, but if things are sometimes not understandable from our own cultural perspective, they may (if the author is doing the job) make perfect sense from within another...(hope that made sense!)

Although Madame Mao takes place in a different culture than ours, people are ubiquitous. Our Madame is portrayed as a deceitful, power hungry female, who seeks adoration and glorification. Many parrellels can be drawn between MM and many of our own female politicians.

I have returned the book but will obtain it again for the discussion. One thing keeps nagging at me and I will have to reread some parts before I comment on what it IS that continues to provoke me.

Yep! That would be me, Chas. " white-bone devil." Aren't we all blacker on the inside (sometimes) than we are on the outside?

Andrea, Interesting you should say that about the parallel to some of our female politicians. I have one in particular in mind that I think many parallels could be drawn.

what i hope comes out in the discussion is a sense of empathy for mm's early years- i think sometimes we don't look deeply into the life events- regardless of culture- that mould who we become as adults- early life, societal expectations and cultures often inform our decisions- political or personal. not wanting to jump the gun but anxious to get started

Hmmm...parallels to one of the USA female politicians...with MM??? I'll be looking forward to the discussion...I can't think of any female politician who had enough clout to be a parallel to MM. Hmmm...still thinking...

What's popped into my mind...and I'm not even half way yet...is "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned."

š ...jane›

I'm currently working with two families that both woman are from China. The one, Jing has her mother here with her. Her mother speaks no English and in China she trained nurses. Her father who cannot leave China is a retired Collage Professor of Engineering. As a child their family was stripped of their possessions and sent to work at the farms because of the father's profession. They were able to come back to their home because the father's father was not a professional carrying on a family line of educated people. Ling's brother and siter both live in the states and all three went to collage in the States.

The other young woman, Shu, her mother is now in Tiewan and her father was a Doctor now deceased. Her mother is a Doctor that trained other Doctors. With the sudden death of her father last year at age 61 her mother, age 60, in her mourning couldn't work so she has quit, stays home and paints. Her mother also played in the symphony orchestra.

When I asked a bit about the Cultural Revolution both woman said that China had to blame someone and Mao was dead so Madame Mao was blamed. That Madame Mao was carrying out Moa's plan. Ling indicated Mao was too strong and would never have been blamed. Both woman said very angrily that it set China back 10 years with all the educated and educaters working fields and not advancing the country. Shu explained the longer the family line of educated professionals the more the family was stripped of their land, home and possessions, sent to work the farms and in some cases were jailed.

Both these inter-racial couples are very much run by the woman and their attention to detail is astonding. They, as most Chinese I've worked with, continue to negotiate, paper contract having no meaning or value, they continue to negotiate up to the exchange of money.

Ling especially does not trust anyone and is convinced that the Inspecters involved in her transaction were all lying as was everyone involved including the County Inspectors when the house was built eight years ago. Her attention to detail is astonding, included scraping the dirt away from the foundation and actually measuring the depth of concrete from the grade line to the brick.

Shu does not trust the builder's rep. and is sure they are lying. Her detail attention seems to be with the numbers-- square footage of each area, cost per square foot of all materials. (I've never in all 20 years, worked with an American that came close to this kind of detail questioning)

I think their skill and concept of negotiating is cultural in that I have experienced this with the many Indonesian-Chinese that I've worked with. Difference being they are anxious to learn our ways and trust me to guide them. Ling and Shu having little trust and that may be the result of what must have been childhood trauma. But for our purposes it is interesting to get their version of why Madame Mao was in their words, "dishonored and humiliated." They both are saying, the country was angry and saying it with such anger I'm not sure if it is their own anger or are they displaying the nations anger.

After reading "Waiting" and learning how members of Mao's army were educated and became doctors I wondered if that was how Ling's mother became a Nurse and Shu's mother became a Doctor. I got the impression though, that Shu's family was educated for several generations, thus they escaped to Tiewan.

Both these woman are engineers and currently Shu is not working. She has agreed with her anglo husband, a manager at Dell, to stay home and raise their under two year old Son where as, Ling works at Motorola and her mother takes care of their two and half year old daughter.

Shu's English is so much clearer and she is anxious to read "Waiting." My relationship with Ling is more formal and we don't chat about books or her hobbies.

Interesting story, Barbara. Do you have any feelings as to why these women seem to trust no one, seem to feel that, as you say, most of the "officials" involved in these transactions are "lying"? And yet trust you to guide them in "our ways"? That seems a bit strange. Wonder if you can conceive what the reason for that might be?

Charlie

Barbara- glad you are here- does this mean you are reading BMM? Also we need you to drop in at White Teeth, questions about symbols, I suggested you were the source of symbol interpretation on seniornet-

anyway its about teeth and bones.

Charlie- in Chinese families in particular amongst the Asian communities- it is the woman who is in charge of family "finances" and has the responsibility and (if successful) the honor of negotiating family business. Many family representatives of the tongs (no tongs are not the equivalent of mafia organized crime in their true sense- rather business communities like Kiwanis) are women. I hope this comes up again as we read MM and as we'd explored in the Good Earth and Waiting- it is important for Americans to understand this role assigned to Chinese women to enhance the discussion.

Charlie I have no clue - I do know that Shu trusts more and we share a friendship that includes chating about family, her small boy as well as, her frustration about being an at-home mother. Ling I'm never sure where I stand, I think I am simply a means to an end and offer information that she is not able to attain in other places. I'm able to share history since I've been doing this for 20 years and know the areas of town that appreciate in value. Ling and Bob were refered to me from a past client and that maybe the source of the trust.

Now the Indonesian-Chinese families I work with have an elder, my first client and another family that hosts weekly gatherings of families from Indonesia, that both recommend me and even help interprete if there is confusion. I've been to their community celebrations including weddings, showers, christenings, special holidays you name it and I have helped more than 20 some odd families. I've also worked with several families from Hong Cong and Tiewan. Some have english some don't, many are young, here to attend UT, some practice Feng Shui and others don't. I have learned so much from all these families.

Yes, I haven't started yet since in prep I am reading Chinese Thought from Confuscius to Mao Tse-Tung also Autocracy and China's Rebel Founding Emperors - comparing Chairman Mao and Ming Taizu also, Burying Mao - Chinese Politics since Mao

History note: Today is the date in 1976 that Jiang Qing and three others, dubbed the "Gang of Four," were arrested and charged with plotting a coup. The four were put on trial in 1980 on charges of subverting the government and torturing innocent people. Jiang Qing was later found guilty and sentenced to death--a sentence later commuted to life imprisonment. She died in 1991 and is thought to have committed suicide.

Charlie

Barbara a thought- your clients will reach out in a variety of ways, each an individual and with individual needs. Some may wish and want to include you in more of their life- others won't. I see some of this thought in a way in BMM, where one chooses how much of a life one is willing to share- and with whom.

I also see though as I read further some of the disappointment of objection to the book- I do not think it is the content so much as the style- which was okay for the prologue but now I too am beginning to feel the whole book is a prologue! Well I guess that makes sense after all this is a prologue to her life.

Above all else Madame Mao was an actress, a dramatic performer. When I reread parts of this I want to expand on that fact and how it affected her desires.

Andie: Good point...and one I must remember. In college, back in the dark ages, we had a gal who was into theatre. It got to the point at our small college of some 1500 that those who knew Lorraine said her "philosophy of life" was "Good Morning, World...Curtain going up"...and she "performed" until she was ready for bed...when her last words were: "Good Night, World...Curtain going down." Maybe MM could have identified with Lorraine...[who ended up with a Ph.D in theatre and is probably still "performing" as we speak! ;0)]

š...jane›

Jane: Great story! "Curtain up--- curtain down." That is our MM.

Is it too soon to say that perhaps in these early chapters we see MM acting out some of our very own fantasies- including doing away with the lovers who have spurned us! maybe this is what we don't like about her early on???????

What? Yili!! Spurned? As in reject or slighted? Surely you jest, not moi.

Sarah, transcripts of these (or audios) are not available online. Neither is this series (I am surprised to report) here in Boston.
[SarahT reported elsewhere that Anchee Min was interviwed on a PBS program]
Charlie

O.K. you are all just funning me this discusson really doesn't start on October 22?? I am 3 hours behind you out here and no posts. I believe that MM set the tone of some of the book when she related about her Mother binding her feet. At some point she rebelled and tore the nasty bandages off and said "no way" Very head strong and stubborn. This continues on in all her relationships. Much coniving seems to be her way and that is what got her to where she wanted to be no matter who she stepped on along the way.

I was unsuccessful in my search to find the Anchee Min PBS interview online. If anyone has the URL I'd appreciate it. I cannot help but have mixed feeling about Madame Mao and the feeling that....though she was acting out her fantasies throughout her life and wanting to get even with people that she thought were in her way or that hurt her physically and emotionally....she was also trying to survive in a place where there was little or no regard for the female but to keep their feet bound and thus keep them at home to serve their masters.

Judy - Sorry, Judy. I apologize to everybody about being late to the party. [Confession: I wanted to finish this one close to the start of the discussion and I cut it a bit close. Just finished it this morning] But Judy, you got us started off nicely. Just as you say, the foot binding was an early defining event in the little girl Nah's (later to become Madame Mao) life. In the foot binding, "she learns pain early" as "the last concubine's daughter." Her mother tells her that "females are like grass, born to be stepped on." Even as Madame Mao later on she is never able to forget these lessons, born in pain, including the lesson that to survive one must rebel. Head strong and stubborn she certainly was, Judy. Contributing to her self-image (or lack thereof) was her drunken, abusive father who planted "the seed of worthlessness in her." The 'author' claims her rage at these conditions "lies behind her every action."

Her mother wishes her daughter were someone else (a son): "This is how misery permeates the girl's soul." She can never be satisfied with who she is because who she is can't please those she wants most to love her - "this is how she begins her acting career." These things are supposed to get to the core of Madame Mao's being and explain her actions - but I must admit that it just didn't do the job sufficiently for me. An interesting spin on how MM might have become who she was - but I remained unconvinced throughout. The formula for presenting action of this historical novel also wore on me after awhile. Each first-person account of the action is either preceded or followed with what I came to view as sort of a psychologist's notes for a case study. The routine of it bothered me a bit. None of this is to say I didn't enjoy the read - or learn more about Madame Mao.

EmmaBarb - I'm afraid that there is no clickable for that interview. I did find the interview site, but they do not have access to them on-line, unfortunately. As much as there is available on the web, I am always surprised when something is not available. As you said EmmaBarb, I take the motivation for MM's actions ("she was...trying to survive in a place where there was little or no regard for the female but to keep their feet bound and thus keep them at home to serve their masters") as valid motivations. My problem is that I just did not come away with much of a feeling of sympathy for MM - and I believe I was supposed to?? I just didn't feel she made the case ('no regard for the female') strongly enough for me to accept that MM's actions stemmed from that (and the other factors). A tragic figure, though, yes. How about everyone else - did Anchee Min make the case well enough in your eyes so that you felt strongly enough about MM that your sympathy was aroused? Or am I just mis-characterizing the author's intentions? What were the author's intentions?

Charlie

Charlie, I do not know what the author's intentions were? I have not read Red Azalea or Katharine to know enough about how Anchee Min writes and if she has a personal message.

I can see the link between becoming and actress as a psychological drive after childhood trauma. Acting I would imagine allows one to become someone else- perhaps a more acceptable way (psychologically) to separate and move outside trauma than perhaps schizophrenia or multiple personality syndrome. I also think the trauma was more conflict in rebelling against her mother and her mother's expectations than the actual pain of the binding. But I do agree that I do not see the decision to become an actress as a critical explanation for MM's later life. As I understand it, choice of profession in China at that time had a lot to do with survival- not just to generate income and thus eat but during that time in history certain professions provided opportunity for social advancement and in many cases social and political protection. I think MM from childhood was a survivor and that informed her choice of profession.

I'm a little curious about the cover of the book. Red is supposed to signify happiness for one thing. And the way she is laid out to me gives the appearance she was prostituting to get what she wanted. And why all the campaign buttons with Mao Tse-Tung....at least they look to me to be him.

EmmaBarb - Yes those are Mao buttons and the red may just be the obligatory color for the politics of China. The pose may very well indicate the intent you suggest.

Charlie

To view some Mao buttons of The Cultural RevolutionClick Here

Charlie

At about eight years old, Nah goes to live with her grandparents and her grandfather introduces her to opera.

"He lets me know I count. A boy or a girl, to him it makes no difference. There is only one condition: as long as I follow him and learn."

So from her grandparents she is introduced to the artistic outlets that will sustain and focus her life. He also gives her a new name: Yun He - Crane in the Clouds. "The crane is the symbol of hope." Interesting though, that at her new school she is a victim of class discrimination and is beat up by a group of boys. When the girls applaud this action, she is particularly incensed. Although "mistreating women was considered a tradition" the fact that other women ("the grass") like herself turned on their own kind, made the matter worse - enraged her in fact, and made a lasting impression.

Charlie

CharlieW - thank you for the buttons. Do they belong to you personally? Just curious....you don't have to answer.

Hi, Friends! I saw the banner about this book discussion today, clicked on it, and thought the book sounded really interesting. I ordered it from the Barnes and Nobles link so in a few days when I get it I will start reading and try to keep up with the discussion. I sort of breezed throught the comments you all have already made and like the sound of it so far. It's late here this evening so will be back tomorrow or next day.

Alf, I too really got into "Madame Mao". I couldn't put it down. Unfortunately, I finished reading it 2 weeks ago and had to return it to the library. I would have liked to have it here to refer to.

Wow, chas, we are off to a great start! Everyone's on board. Oh Johann, I am delighted that you came back (you were missed) to join us in our read. I wish that I had purchased this , instead of borrowing it from the library,like Donna. I must go by the few notes and my memory. That Is scary.

I loved the cover, the RED signifying the "good" and the moral. Great visual propoganda which seems to fit our Madame. Hot, hot , hot. I learned SO much reading this book re. the Cultural Revolution.

We learned from our earlier books that the foot binding was for the prestige and class. She rebels against this, as she becomes angry with her room mate who secured a wanted role, she feels "some evil hands are always trying to bind my feet." "A rotten piece of wood," opting for things her mother dislikes, the author walks us thru these memories as she is awaiting her execution. Their hope is for her repentence. Oh please!! We know we aren't about to witness that from a passionate, rebellious girl. Being beaten mereley "shocked the soul out of her." Changing her name so many times, it led me to wonder if there were any legal requirements she had to fullfill. Papers to authenticate ? 1919-33, she was Yunhe; 34 to '37, Lanling. She becomes obsessed with drama, addicted, she fantasizes and plays her roles. JiangChing from '38-91.

Happy Birthday Andrea .... I hope you got to look at your cards in Fall Frolics.

She has some money in her pocket and is on the run again...she never mentions her husband to anyone.

EmmaBarb - I'll plead the fifth on that EmmaBarb. No - just kidding! They are from a link called Art*i*Facts from the Cultural Revolution which I know you'll want to check out because of your interest in the graphic arts. It's a bit slow loading (the first time). Click the hyperlink to visit. I've put it up in the heading of this page.

Welcome to the discussion, Johann McCrackin from Myrtle Beach. Love the surf at Myrtle Beach. Any t-shirts on-sale down there?? (sorry - couldn't resist) Join us when you can. One thing - we don't have to worry about "spoilers" I should think. After all it's an "historical novel" so we know what happens, pretty much. And if we forgot, the prologue reminds us. So it's in the details as they say. And welcome back to DonnaMac (that kinda has a ring to it!), also. Hopefully, we can jog your memory. But tell. I'm still trying to figure out why I don't feel particularly "sympathetic" toward Madame Mao. Could you tell us what your feelings were about her in general? It certainly would have been fascinating to meet this woman, though. I do have one lasting image of her from the news back in the 70's or 80's. I can still see her standing in front of some sort of tribunal in black pj style prison garb and being completely unrepentant. Usually when we see these totalitarian images, they are of prisoner making a confession in disgrace. I remember thinking how strong-willed she must have been. This book did validate and flesh out that impression, that's for sure.

ALF - AND HAPPY BIRTHDAY, ALF, by the way. I wasn't aware that you'd be joining us! ALWAYS a pleasure. SURE we're off to a great start. Whaddaya expect? The Gang of Four is now the Gang of Eight (with 5 missing in action!).

You mention class and that certainly has always played a large part in what we've read previously about 'foot-binding'. For women, it was also the only chance they might have at a decent life. Without this mutilation, they would not have been "appealing" after the popular image. Well some might say we have our own 'foot-binding' or idealized images with us still today that are part of the barrage on our - I say our: Men's and Women's - senses, telling us what is good, what is appealing, what is beautiful. Fashion magazines, television advertisements, Hollywood product - even our television news "reporters". As far as "class" was concerned - women belonged almost exclusively to one - the lower one. So one does have to cheer little Yun He for rebelling against that and making her own way out of the cultural mandates.

Alf writes about her name changes. What about those? Let's look at them, shall we? Names are many times important in novels - no less so in historical fictions of this type, I'd say. If her names changes presented legal difficulties, we are not made aware of them in the context of the novel. Let's look at them as "roles" she played. Can we do that? Do they make sense in looking at them that way? I believe I erred earlier in calling her Nah as a little girl. That was, of course, her daughters name. Do the names correspond to the roles she was playing during those periods? Here they are:

Yunhe (Crane in the Clouds): Named by her grandfather sometime after the age of 8. Before that she was nameless in the novel as far as I could tell. What does this SAy? The Crane (according to Anchee Min) is a symbol of hope. So she is given a name and a purpose, a focus, that gives her hope of a better life- and her name corresponds to her life at this point. Fair enough.

Her hopes of becoming a successful stage actress are not a success. Hard work does not do it. Her first aborted attempt ends in her being brought home by her grandfather who attempts to marry her off. So she runs away again to another opera house. AFter reaching her goal (a leading role) politics intervenes and the theater is shut down (1930). SHe goes to Beijing. She returns to her grandparents, broke after only two months. This time they succeed in marrying her off. THis also ends abruptly, by mutual agreement, it seems. Hope is not doing it. She discovers a new man and a new cause (Yu Qiwei and Communism) and a new life. THe civil war destroys this relationship too. She is arrested and betrays thee party. SHe needs a fresh start - and so a new name. This time she names herself. Hope can only go so far.
Lan Ping (Blue Apple): Blue (her favorite color) is associated with "myth" and apple "evokes the idea of harvest, ripeness, fruitful future." All the while this seems but an interim name, a marker until her destiny is hooked to Mao's when her name changes again. Again it is given to her by someone else. What if she had remained BLue Apple, not yet ripe, but her own person? We'll never know as Mao names her
Jiang Ching (Green River): "Green comes out of blue but is richer than blue" the traditional saying goes.
"I have parted from my old role. I come out of blue and enter the richer color green. I am a butterfly out of the cocoon, spring belongs to me. My name has become part of my lover's poetry." The Chinese characters for her new name have straight lines "like a boat sailing in full wind." Like a boat that the current of the times will take, though. Like a boat that is inevitably tethered to the great ship of state. Like a boat swept along in the wake of history. Her name is not her own and her life will not be her's again, either.

After that, to the end of her days, Jiang Ching. But also known by other unofficial names like "white-boned demon." When the roles you choose to play are bigger than life, the life you live is no longer yours alone it seems.

Charlie

CharlieW. - I definitely will check out the Art*i*Facts link and thanks much.

Count me as present, please. I confess I still have the same problem with this book (you might say, an aversion even) and am unable to identify the reason.

And I was sooo ANXIOUS to read the book - had my name on the library's "reserved" list for the longest time --- because I thought (wrongly, it turns out) that this book would supplement, complement Ha Jin's marvelous WAITING.

Alas, I do not find that to be quite so. Perhaps it is the FORMAT : a pseudo memoir, is it ? A reinvention ? Surely it is NOT a historical novel !

I find the continued use of the present tense overwhelming and, frankly, annoying. Let me try and go on reading, both your wonderful posts, and - for the time being while I can stand it - the book itself,

will be back Traude

Traude

I'm here too, but also having the trouble Traude mentions...can't get involved in the book...feel like each page is a repeat of the pages before...one dimensional character who is obsessed with power or what she cannot have...ie., men who are not interested in her, etc.

I think Kang Sheng is correct when he says "Your true lover is power itself." (p.191)

š...jane›

Traude - Reinvention. That's good. As I said earlier - I found it to be almost like a "case study". Somethihg out of the medical journals on aberrant behavior. Yeah. That "voice" grated on me a bit also.

...jane - I still recall what you said earlier also about an old acquaintance of yours whose whole life was lived as if on the stage. So there ARE people like that, I guess. And it IS difficult to get "involved" in a book if the motivations just don't ring true to you. If doing 'b' and 'c' are supposed to be the result of 'a' - but you ask yourself: Why would 'a' make you do THAT!! Plus we know the end. WE know her downfall is inevitable. And I've read many novels that lay out the outcome first - it doesn't necessariy have to be a defect at all. Also, jane, on page 54 our case worker says: "It is in her relationship with Dan that she learns her fate. Learns that she can't escape Dan and men like him." What are "men like him" I wonder? Surely not just "men she can't have". Does anyone have an idea what A. Min is saying here/ What kind of men is she talking about?

Charlie

Been so busy reading background material I'm only now starting the book-- thought-- as Charles has shared, Anchee Min was plucked out of a Labor Camp to play Madam Mao in a movie and later the Chinese movie star, Joan Chen, helped her escape to the U.S.

As I've shared when I spoke of Madam Mao to the Chinese woman I've recently helped with their Real Estate needs, they both showed stiff red faces and said in anger that everyone in China was angry about the culteral revolution and blamed Madam Mao because Mao himself was dead and she was only continuing what he would have professed. Remember one woman was a child when she and her family were sent to the labor farm because her father was a professor of engineering. The other woman, with her family, escaped to Tiawan. Her parants were both Doctors.

Hearing that, and learning that the author was plucked from a labor camp I am wondering, how one-sided is this novel. Many of us have had terror and shattering experiences at the hands of those we depended on and if we wrote a book before our years of therapy, where we learned forgivness, we also would be filled with anger showing the perpetrator of our nightmare in the light of our anger.

I'm also wondering if finding examples of Madam Mao's childhood to show 'why she acted as she did as an adult' is simply the author trying to make things fit. And also, I wonder, is part of the anger with Madam Mao and nitpicking her childhood as the cause of the viewed misuse of power, does it have something to do with her being a woman. Compare the view and treatment of her "sins against the Chinese" with Mao's "sins."

Anchee Min herself says,

"Though the Cultural Revolution was cruel, it was an important step for people to become politically mature," she says. "We trusted Mao so much. We were willing to sacrifice our lives for his words. Now, there's a 180-degree turn. You rely on things you witness with your own eyes."

I'm not questioning her right to be angry only wonder how much of this book is reflective of the Chinese 'blame' game that is usefull because it is really covering a power struggle among those that seek and jocky for power. And, is being an actress playing the part of Madam Mao being a "witness with your own eyes" or is it becoming acquanted with more of Madam Mao's life BUT through the eyes of the writers and director of the film that Anchee Min was cast.

When I read the part about the girls cheering on the boys and MM's disappointment- I was thinking about present times in workplace america, especially at senior management levels where I remain perplexed at how often and how sometimes much more viciously than "the boys" women will compete with each other and create hostile environments rather than pursuing a "girls club" providing support despite the competition.

I also find it interesting what plays the author chooses to depict for MM's evoving career.

Barbara love your post- I think in selecting to tell us about MM's childhood- fiction or fact- the author is reminding us that regardless of race, religion, ethnicity, culture etc- the things we label to divide us- there is in fact a developmental theme in the lives of most humans. One aspect of that theme is how childhood experiences (traumatic or otherwise) help form who we are.

I also note somewhere in the book the "revelation" communism was like a religion to these people, I think this just about when we are getting introduced to Mao. If this were a book about Mao- historical fiction or fact- I think we would be less put off by the review of his childhood, we almost expect to hear about the childhoods of significant men in history and we accept that childhood is often what shapes them. An important point made was it Kang Shen speaking- who said that the greatness of man (woman) has to do with the times he lives in.

With so much of our discussions focusing on environmental and experiential impact I wanted to share an interesting question raised in another book I just finished, the character is wondering if there is a point in our adulthood when we no longer choose- that the lives we have shaped in some way follow a determined path, one that is the accumulation of all that came before. I found this a powerful inner dialogue and I think it has some merit as a question for MM.

Charlie, thanks for your e-mail welcome. When I first saw your name I wondered who in the world it was from and almost didn't open it. Glad I did!

I can hardly wait to get my book in the mail and start reading it. I'm fascinated by all of your comments about Madame Mao and the author who portrayed her at one point and eventually wrote the book. It will be interesting to read it with your viewpoints in mind.

Has anyone here read The White-Boned Demon? Just wondering how it might compare...

To find out where Anchee Min is coming from you might want to read Red Azalea. It is very heavy as I remember but might explain more: Red Azalea

YiLi Lin wrote:

With so much of our discussions focusing on environmental and experiential impact I wanted to share an interesting question raised in another book I just finished, the character is wondering if there is a point in our adulthood when we no longer choose- that the lives we have shaped in some way follow a determined path, one that is the accumulation of all that came before. I found this a powerful inner dialogue and I think it has some merit as a question for MM.

That is interesting. Physiologically, that seems to be saying that we become "hard-wired". That our synapses begin to make certain connections reflexively, even before we're aware. Seems to have some merit.

Hairy - I have not read The White-Boned Demon - nor Red Azalea for that matter. Someone here was going to read that as I recall - her actual memoirs.

An interesting comment early in the book (pg. 19) concerned Yunhe's understanding of why her grandfather loved the opera:

It is to numb himself. In opera he relives China's past splendor. People are fooling themselves.

This seemed to foreshadow the Cultural Revolution's offering of classical Chinese opera's updated with a revolutionary twist.

Charlie

When Anchee Min was in Boston to promote MM, the press report in the Living Section of the Boston Globe appeared to me to be sort of guarded. The article did mention that elsewhere in the country, the author's reception had been mixed and not always friendly. At Q&A periods Chinese exiles asked angrily how she dared badmouth her/their native land.

Anchee Min and Ha Jin were born a year apart (1956 vs. 1957); both came here roughly at the same time, circa 1989. I wonder whether they know one another.

The point is that this enormous populous nation was closed off to the world for decades, and we still know not nearly enough of what happened then.

Nor can we even begin to understand what it feels like to be under the total control of the state in all aspects of one's life.

Chairman Mao did, of course, precisely what other despots have done : go after those who possessed SOMEthing, however little, and those who KNEW something - to eliminate the intelligentsia. Mao closed all schools during the Cultural Revolution. Can we possibly understand what that meant ? China's colleges finally reopened in 1977 -- (Mao died in 1976).

Traude

I agree, Traude. We can talk about that kind of totalitarian control - but can we ever really fully grasp its impact?

I saw Ha Jin speak at a booksigning when he was on his Waiting tour (here in Boston). None of that kind of reaction for him. It came up that there was work being done on a Chinese translation of Waiting (he writes in English) for possible publication in China. He was rather matter-of-fact about the (what he seemed to think of as) the remote possibility of this happening. The reaction of the official Chinese press to the recent Nobel awards was certainly ambiguous, also.

Charlie

I've heard it said that an entire generation was lost in China because of the Cultural Revolution and the impact it had on any sort of educated group.

YiLi's comments seem to fit both the characters in Waiting and Madame Mao . They all seem to function without passion or thinking...just sort of by rote...which I think is why I think of them as single dimensional...they don't change, they don't grow, they're the same in the beginning as at the end.

On the other hand, MM seems to have more "motivation"...more "drive" than did any of the Waiting characters. MM is not "waiting" for someone to give her anything...she's out to get the "brass ring...the power" anyway necessary. She's that way in the beginning and she's apparently like that to her death.

š...jane›

when they are stifled to begin with ? Could it have anything to do with a person's makeup ? A certain predisposition ? To rebel or to accept, meekly ?

Granted, Lin, the protagonist of WAITING, was emotionally (and not ONLY emotionally) deficient, but consider the arid medical, walled compound where he spent years of his life !

Madame Mao and, by extension obviously, Anchee Min were/are made of different cloth. Anchee Min's attempt to recreate - and excuse Mme. Mao, or at least explain her monstrosities, is an honest one, I think. I have no problem with the concept. Form is another matter, and I have already said my piece. Traude

Hmmm...I guess I'll have to check the book out again...I didn't finish it in 6 weeks...which tells you how much of a trial it was for me to read it...since I read and completed several other books and took a couple of trips in that time...because I've missed what Traude refers to...the "Anchee Min's attempt to recreate - and excuse Mme. Mao, or at least explain her monstrosities..."

I only read to page 205, and I hadn't figured out what Min is attempting to show.

š...jane›

I think that we have to keep in mind that this is a book of fiction, even if many of the details are factual.

Danger fueled excitement for her. Remember when she stole the scarf off confucious's statue? Danger "gave her a chance to show her character." "A woman scorned." Everything that she did was for her own pleasure or for vindictive purposes. She never forgave any slight and spent her life cashing in deposits of "her disappointments," we are told. YuQuieui , whom she loved never let her finish her role, thereby humiliating her. Mr. Zhao Dan ,the King of the Chinese stage,rejects her and becomes her lifetime curse. Personal grudges are numerous and she uses everyone as a stepping stone to her end, which is her power. Rmemeber when she left a note for the casting director which said "she likes to be recognized, leave a trace, be someone?" That pretty much sums up the Madame to me. "

Alf...And to add to your post...I remembered to write this one down...seemed to sum it up for me about MM....

"My nature refuses to live an invisible life. I demand acknowledgement and respect-but I get it from no one." p> 177.

I wonder if she saw every other woman's life...except those she deemed her "rivals" as "invisible." I think many of the older women of many countries, including the USA, saw themselves as "invisible" maybe in many areas of life??????

š...jane›

Let's also remember the different times being depicted- the early part of MM Mao was not yet in power- also there was the nature of revolution and the possibilities of how life could be both as a revolutionary and after. So though MM was living in the time of disgruntlement with the pre-revolutionary government, there was that energy that spirit of hope. In a way it would be interesting to find a 60's character here in america who was part of the new vision whether for race equality or another movement where that person- particularly female- believed in a new system that could change her life.

jane - and her motivation is at least in part from trying to outgrow the feelings of worthlessness engendered in her by her father (and the society at large too, I suppose)

Traude - Thanks for succinctly stating what I had been trying to express all this time. It's the form that bothered me also. I was in fact, fascinated enough by the concept to want to read the book. One is also always a bit more disappointed than might be cal;led for if one was looking forward to seeing how the concept played out.

But didn't she see all women as either rivals or allies to be used in some way?

Charlie

Yes, Charlie, I think so, but I kind of think they were all "faceless" /invisible to her...except for the couple she thought were rivals. I think it's just the power thing we've spoken of before...once you were an "ally," she had power over you...it was those she could not "conquer" that seemed to be those she obsessed over...and sought revenge on.

š...jane›

I've been trying to figure out why I liked this book so much. I see Madame Mao as a female character constantly struggling to keep afloat. I never see her as triumphant or powerful. To me she's always putting on a show in which the curtains are on the verge of crashing down (and she knows it!) I have to confess, that all I know about this character is what I have read in this book. I was still on my mothers knee with pigtails in my hair when this all was going on! I was shocked to discover a tradition such as feet binding, but I do feel that her feet were "bound" when she was in the huge palace and suffering from depression. It was if she were stuck. Going back to the USA politician resemblance to Madame Mao, I can think of a few leading male politicians that had their share of concubines while their loyal politically ambitious wives looked the other way! I was also interested when courting each of her husbands, she always seemed entranced by the night and how it played upon the scene. Her "dating scenes" were always described as being played out in the romantic night. Later on in the book Mao says to her, "Magic and illusion has to take place in the dark." Drama, opera, and magic....what a showwoman!

My book finally came late this afternoon and I had a meeting tonight so haven't had a chance to start reading yet, but am trying to keep up with your comments. They are really whetting my curiosity and my eagerness to get into the book. Hope to be able to comment by the time I get here again.

Excellant observation Donna. Doesn't she always seem to be on stage, full of drama and "glitz?"

Yililin: How about Jackie Kennedy, a 60's woman with a great deal of hope for a new era? As a young senator's wife, she tranlated official French documents for JFK that helped him formulate his views of Indochina. As president, JFK made certain that Jackie was with him when he met de Gaulle . Time correspondent Sidey recalled during the 1961 Cuban Missile Crisis, JFL would brief Jackie @ dinner time and he relied on her "sense of people." She seems like a much kinder soul than MM, doesn't she? Remember Abigal Adams? She had the distinction of being the first woman to be called "Mrs. Predident," not Hillary or Eleanor Roosevelt. In 1797, Edith Wilson, Woodrows wife, was derided as the real president (and in her case it may have been true) while Woodrow was ill. James Polks wife, Sarah, served as her husband's principle aid in 1845 and occupied a desk outside his office. Andrew Johnson's wife, Eliza, lent her voice to favoring a humane approach to Reconstruction -post civil war. Long before Hillary, Eliza counseled her husband thru his impeachment hearings. If Tricky Dick had listened to Pat, he might have survived impeachment. She urged him to burn Watergate tapes early on (while they were still legally his.) In Reagans administration, Nancy was so fiercely protective of Ronald that aides openly feared her. When Donald Regan outlived his usefulness (House chief of staff) they went to Nancy. He was done! It's clear that Bush'es chief of staff Sununu was out the door when Barbara Bush concluded he'd become a liability.

SOoooo- the question is still-- DO women belong and function well, in the political arena? Was MM a liability or an asset to Mao?

DonnaMac makes two good points. The first when she said that MM is "constantly struggling to keep afloat." In fact she says early on that "It's not my nature to check the water's depth. I believe that I will float somehow." And she does manage to stay afloat until the end, even though she never quite gets to where she wants to be - there's always someone "plotting" against her or looking to bring her down in her view. She never quite attains the status of "triumphant" - although I'd have to say that "power" she does achieve. But isn't it always this way with people who achieve their positions with others as stepping stones?

Secondly, DonnaMac points out that MM's feet were surely bound just as tightly in the Forbidden City as they were as a child in Shan-dong.

Does anyone remember Madame Ky from the Vietnam era? Her persona was very similar to Madame Mao's. I wonder though, if this is just the stereotyping of the Western press. Certainly Anchee Min does take that stereotype almost as a starting point - and though she doesn't necessarily "debunk" the myth - she does flesh it out with motivation and her idea of a psychological profile.

Thanks for the recap there, Andrea - and a good question: "Was MM a liability or an asset to Mao?"

I'd have to say an asset. An asset like many others that he played off against each other in a master chess game. Though MM may have been a queen to Mao's King and Kang Sheng's Bishop - in the end she was an asset to sacrifice like any other to defer the check-mate of Mao. Fascinating.

Charlie

Good question. Both a liability and an asset, I think, at different times in their respective lives.

And no, I don't think there is a female AMERICAN parallel/comparison to MM, but let's not overlook the fact that America's history is rather short - unlike that of Europe, where quite a few women HAVE been inordinately powerful and influential, centuries ago.

((In double parentheses : Are any of them EVER mentioned ? In History classes ? In English classes perhaps for the literary heroines ? Hardly.))

Well, they are not the issue, so let me mention just ONE : Empress Catherine the Great of Russia (1729-96). (Now THERE 's an interesting subject!)

To get back to the subject at hand. There is no doubt that Anchee Min has written a significant book and from a personal perspective.

Especially to be welcomed because we still know too little of Mao, his era and all the political players, including his wife.

Min's approach is intriguing, actually admirable - considering that English is not her native tongue. Clearly, her descriptions are authentic. She was there, part of the time ! But is the representation of MM not perhaps a bit one-dimensional, i.e. too erotically charged ?

I was irritated by the abrupt changes in the narrator's voice -- first person in one paragraphg, third person down the page -- and have returned the book to the library.

Traude

Traude - We were cross posting. Did you return the book in the first person or the third person? :-}

Charlie

I see these women depicted as assets- I wonder though if they had the opportunity and the inclincation to exact revenge as did MM or is she more a fictional character like Lady M-

I am imaging as I write this some of these powerful women whispering in their husband's ears orders for the beheadings. Interesting how through history that women used men as instruments for retribution- I wonder if that is becaue women did not historically get the "place" to act on their own power or was it a woman's nature to be violent through a man. In pre-male deity societies women seemed to do their fair share of direct retribution. Lots of castrations too, especially in the nordic traditions.

Charlie, I really tried. I am sorry. I do not give up easily !!! Hardly ever.

On castrations and palace revolutions -- plenty of those, oh yes, YiLiLin.

As for Catherine II. of Russia : she was not nanmed "The Great" for nothing. Her good deeds are many. But let me mention here only one noteworthy historical, perhaps amusing fact :

She had a hearty appetite for men and several favorites, among them was one Prince Grigori Aleksandrovich POTEMKIN who became an advisor and fed her wonderful stories about the (totally imaginary) progress of the people in the hinterlands. A woman not easily convinced by words, she demanded to see for herself. A tour was planned and duly undertaken.

Well, the clever prince had facsimiles (dummies, really) fashioned of beautiful roadside village fronts which proved the point very well. The Empress pronounced herself satisfied and grateful each time ...

After she and her entourage had departed in their carriages, the "dummies" were hastily folded up and transported to the next carefully assigned stop, where their effect was similarly successful.

Hence the term "like Potemkin's villages" , indicating something that does not really exist but is merely a fabricated illusion ...

Traude

How did everyone else interpret the thing about the "people"...ie., Party, who wanted assurance from Jiang Chiang (sp?) that she won't interfere if she marries Mao? It seemed to me that IF he was the leader and the strong one...who would dare ask such things of the woman he was to marry? It made me think he was a puppet who was easily controlled by someone or ones in the Party...and they didn't want any competition from her for his "ear."

š...jane›

Good story, Traude. Hadn't heard that one - nor did I know that Potemkin was a faorite of C.

jane- I just read that as another example of Mao's political instincts. He seemed to know what battles to fight ('two steps forward, one step back') and which battles to forego. A very savvy politician . WhatI thought was funny, was that he didn't want to be the one to have to break the news to her! In order to get them to agree at all, he in fact, turned the tables on the Party by showing how it would look if he (Mao) was ":imprisoned by my own party." It would show that the "Communists have no respect for humanity." He wins the bigger battle (his right to marry MM) and yields a smaller victory as a peace offering (he allows limits to be placed on MM's power). Realpolitik 101.

Charlie

Perhaps not puppet, but it appears to me that observers certainly recognized her ambition and insiders were certainly wise to the influence of intimates in state decisions.

what I keep reuminating on though- even as a work of fiction- that we seem to tell historical biographical stories without excuse for the details of power when the leaders are men and we suppose these intimate intrigues- yet when the leaders are women we tell the tales as if the power details were aberrations of character and we don't absorb ourselves in the potential contributions of the intimates.

Hmm Potemkin villages- interesting we have a luxury car dealership by the same name around here.

That is an excellent description - and almost a preconceived notion. One wonders whether that will EVER change.

I am going to read up on the Mao era to complement Anchee Min's reinterpretative rendering; have ordered MAO ZEDONG by Jonathan Spence, Penguin, 1999, and hope it will come soon. T

I'm lurking. I want to understand what you wrote, YiLi. Are you saying that when a woman in power screws up, then we see her AS the screwed up behavior---a failure. And that a man in power is seen as a whole person who screws up sometimes. Or are you saying that when power corrupts, we say, "See, I told you women couldn't handle power," and about men, "Well, screw ups happen."

Speaking of screw ups.

A woman gets home to find a note her husband left her. It reads: Dr.'s office called and said that the Pabst Beer was normal.

Sorry Chas, had to slip that in there today. Many women, as well as men DO have that unconquerable will like Mao had.

Going back to YiLiLin's post -

Indeed, it is still taken for granted that power lies and belongs (some think) entirely in the hands of men. That women can exert influence only indirectly by whispering into ears. That when one of them attains power on her own, she is not only a rarity but fights an uphill battle all the way. And she is under intense scrutiny at all times, with people laying traps for her every step of the way. This was certainly historically true and in this cse.

When a man and wife team act in unison, as Mao and Madame Mao did for a spell (she was member of the Polibureau, wasn't she ?), the pressure (on both, presumably) intensifies. The question was asked whether Madame Mao was an asset or a liability for Mao, who was by all accounts anything but a puppet, and I believeas I said that she was both, at one time or another. She was also enormously ambitious, theatrical, inordinately vindictive, quite ruthless herself and had great organizational ability. We must not forget what huge strides where taken to get that vast country to the modern age, by hook and by crook and with violence and sacrifice. From this book we can infer that Madame Mao continued in all her endeavors and remained sexually attentive to Mao, in perpetual readiness as it were. Does the end of the book provide an answer as to why he turned away from her ? Historians tell us that China would not be what it is without Mao. That seems rather obvious. But I would like to ask just how important HER contribution was, how much she influenced HIM. Does the book provide an answer ?

Traude

Traude your post I think explained much better what I was getting at. The even looking back, not just to MM- Evita Peron for example, historians and readers of history and historical fiction seem to discuss the lives of women in power in "whispers", even those we look more kindly on like E. Roosevelt- somewhere in the long view we - yep unfortunately even other women- make excuses. Not that they do anything wrong or screw up- simply the nature of their seeking and attaining power and leadership.

I think the small piece in MM where she is tired of a life of children, washing and sewing- well how many of us even before Betty Friedan had those same feelings, but now there are still HUGE pockets of social norm that still frowns upon a woman who is tired of her babies and home. Nowadays we "allow" women careers providing they move ahead and attain success along with keeping up the traditional role.

I really like that Min took the time to tell us about MM "cleaning up" after the meetings even if she were a supposed player.

Andrea ~ That's funny!

Later Madame Mao turned away from Mao sexually for good reason.....any woman would. She even put up with all his mistresses rather than give up her position of power. She kept saying she loved him even in the end and never gained his love she so desparately wanted.

Evita, of course ! Had not thought of her. How could I forget ! A timely reminder, thank you.

Most assuredly Juan would never have attained power and status without her ! Talking about assets !!! Second wife (Isabel was it ?) tried, but oh boy, she was no Evita !

About cleaning up -- how true. Sad. (There are exceptions but they confirm the rule.)

No matter how much a woman accomplishes even today, she is expected to at least "oversee" if not actually "do" what is necessary in every -day life. The finger is pointed at her first. The glass ceiling in the home is a lot lower than it is in the workplace.

Later, Traude

Finally I am back - first thing I did was click here ignoring some 105 emails - Thought all would be well and did not make a big deal out of visiting my daughter in South Carolina last Saturday coming back on Wednesday. It was a hurried and harried visit - violin recitel Sunday, picked apples in the mountains of North Carolina (Flat Rock) on Monday, shopped (only 5% sales tax in S.C.) and ran up to Ashville to check out where my daughter is thinking about moving or maybe just sending the boys to school and home on Wednesday with a limited number of posts in seniornet while visiting with lots of air/reading time I had expected to add my thoughts to the various discussions on Wednesday afternoon.

Well-- Sunday when I went to check my messages all I got was ringing and no mashine saying "call the office etc." This continued and first thing I checked after opening my font door on Wednesday afternoon was my mashine. Sure enough last message was recorded Saturday - Well I should have simply looked out my window rather than checking the mashine. With all the torents of rain while I was away and after the incredible heat this summer that had weakened the trees - Yes, you guessed it, a huge half of a tree had fallen with phone wires all over the garden.

Because of the flooding rains all week the phone company was on overload trying to repair Austin and San Antonio. And although they promised to call my daughter so she wouldn't worry and switch calls to my moble- they did neither. I spoke with her on my cell thursday and asked her to post my situation but for some reason my daughter couldn't figure out how to get into Seniornet to post. I think it is the code thing that threw her. I did try

My cell is going to have some bill this month.

Well I have loads of research that should some light on this book but I must made dozens of phone calls etc. and get caught up with my life.

I am not yet finished reading Becoming Madame Mao because I keep stopping to research this and that. I will share what I have learned hopefully this evening - for now...as Confusious and Mao say I will "hold up my part of the sky."

Madame meets Mao and "feels the pulse of her role " as she learns politics in Mao's cave. When we first meet Mao here the author described his eyes-- where there were invisible guards behind the mask. Their duty was to block anyone from entering the path that leads to the masters chamber of the mind. He was a self taught , son of peasants, a stragegist and yet we feel his vulnerability.

when was it that he told MM that the reason they married was that they were each others mirrors, reflecting their own beauty?

Even on their wedding day he said "peanuts" ... to serve their guests...and she jumped. That should have told her something.

she was regarded as the 1st lady of China, though, Emma. Maybe that was enough for her, even suffering through the spills of passion he found for others.

Love that glass ceiling in the home lower...with permission can't wait to use it! I remember back in my youth having an unnamed feeling when dishes were in the sink and there was always this assumption even by my own mother that somehow it was a blot on my overall skills - what skills? at the time I had small children, working and going to night school.....so I guess MM's scenario just hit a cord. But moving on.....

ALF brings up the subject of "eyes" with "When we first meet Mao here the author described his eyes-- where there were invisible guards behind the mask. Their duty was to block anyone from entering the path that leads to the masters chamber of the mind. He was a self taught , son of peasants, a strategist and yet we feel his vulnerability." Actually this is MM's description (not the author's - sometimes confusing) - and telling. More importantly, in the all-to-familiar "thirty years later" narration style, MM looks into Mao's eyes on his deathbed, and "she sees the same pair of eyes and realizes that she has invented them." Invented them, indeed! Invented the eyes that seduced her. Now I ask you: who was she kidding here? MM creates a Mao for her imaginary play that must be running in her head - a play in which she stars.

"This is how I fell in love with Tang Nah. I begin to see everything through his eyes."...pg 64

"She has the eyes of a pioneer. It is with this vision that she finds her next stage."...pg 90

Alf asked about the passage (pg 195) when Mao says to MM:

"Do you know what secret it was that got us married? Mao asked as if reading her thoughts and then answered himself. It was the fascination with ourselves. We once were each other's mirror that reflected our own beauty. We sang hymns to ourselves...and that was all."

She protests that they are "two sides of one leaf" and that she plays an important roll in upholding his image. Mao scoffs at this interpretation: "Play out your drama any way you like...but don't assign me to any role." {emphasis mine]

Charlie

Hi, Folks! I've managed to read about 60 pages of the book and really don't have a lot to add to what you all have already said. I am wondering though if Anchee Min doesn't project a lot of her own feelings about the stage into Madame Mao. That's not to say that they are not valid. I will be interested in reading Red Azalea after finishing this. I really do like the book and hope I get more time to read this week than I have had this weekend.

When she is imploring her daughter to write her truth I wondered, what was her truth. It is so easy to read and casually remember recent history that I had to relook at what was said. It looks like there is truth for both mother and daughter. Here is what I found:

THREE GREAT PRINCIPLES, the ideological basis of the political program of the Chinese as first outlined by national leader Sun Yat-sen (1866-1925), which champions the principles of nationalism, democracy, and socialism.

The principles were originally formulated as slogans for revolutionary student group, the United League, one of the chief forces behind the 1911 Republican Revolution, which ended the Manchu rule of China. After the failure of this revolution to establish democracy, Sun formed a new party, the Kuomintang, or Nationalist Party, utilizing his principles as fundamental doctrine. In 1922 the Kuomintang formed an alliance with the Chinese Communist Party.

The first principle, min-tsu chu-i, nationalism, earlier had meant opposition to the Ch'ing (Manchu) dynasty and to foreign imperialism; now the phrase is denoting self-determination for the Chinese people as a whole and also for the minority groups within China.
The second principle, min-ch'üan chu-i, "rights of the people," sometimes translated as "democracy," could be achieved, by allowing the Chinese people to control their own government through election, initiative, referendum, and recall.
The last principle was min-sheng chu-i, "people's livelihood," often translated as "socialism" is the most vague, but it was the idea of equalization of land ownership through a just system of taxation.

After the Kuomintang-Communist split in 1927, both Mao Zedong and Chiang Kai-shek claimed to be carrying on the true spirit of the Three Principles of the People.

Mao tried fighting off capitalism and feudalism (this is not feudalism as we define the word, rather a system of patriarchy in combination with family land ownership - attacking this system is next to impossible as other insightful research explains) through encouragement of socialism. He criticized literature and academics the most. This trend toward tyranny and after the failed "Great Leap Forward" soon led to the Cultural Revolution. Mao's primary goal was to regain total power, have China pursue radical policies, and thus "save the revolution." Mao launched the offensive against his opponents within the party by encouraging attacks on the intellectuals, particularly writers and academics.

The deputy mayor of Beijing, Wu Han, a distinguished historian of the Ming period supported moderate economic policy was the first victim of the Cultural Revolution. It was an old Chinese tradition -- which had always included censorship -- to criticize present policies by writing about similar policies followed in the past. Chinese intellectuals read the play as an allegory to Wu Han's old ally, the former Minister of Defense, Marshal Peng Dehuai, who had been punished for his criticism of the Great Leap Forward. Furthermore, Wu Han not only favored moderate policies and defended intellectuals, but also had far more influence in Beijing than Mao himself.

The attack on Wu Han soon turned into an attack on "bourgeois influence" in art and literature, and then on intellectuals in general, but academics in particular. The attack was first led by party cadres, headed by Mao's wife now, dictator of Culture in China.

Jiang Qing and her associates damaged the theater by banning all other dramas deemed ideologically counter-revolutionary and by ruthless persecution of writers, playwrights and theater professionals including those that made life difficult for her or embarrased her in the 1930s.

Certainly, it was not of her own volition that a young female professor of philosophy at Beijing University put up a poster calling for the Cultural Revolution to become a mass movement. In fact, known is that Mao had her poster reprinted and put up everywhere. He also supported -- and more likely inspired -- the formation by the students of a Red Guard, allied with the army, and allowed them to attack their professors, whom Mao rightly viewed as supporters of moderate party leaders.

The encyclopedia. com quotes:

Gang of Four term of opprobrium given by the Chinese Communist authorities to four persons held responsible for the excesses of the CULTURAL REVOLUTION (1966-69). They were also accused of trying to seize power after the deaths (1976) of MAO ZEDONG and ZHOU ENLAI. The most notable was JIANG QING, Mao's widow. The others were Wang Hongwen, Yao Wenyuan, and Zhang Chunqiao.

As violence and terror increased during the Cultural Revolution, Mao Zedong and Jiang Qing publicly condemned the "ultra-leftist tendencies" of the People's Liberation Army, by 1967, Mao Zedong and the Gang of Four began to lose control of the Cultural Revolution to the People's Liberation Army and Zhou Enai, the Mao-appointed Premier of China. As Mao's health deteriorated and more political power fell into the hands of Zhou, Jiang Qing and the other Gang of Four members waged an ideological attack on Zhou, as well as his successor, Hua Guofeng.

After Mao's death, she was arrested (1976) for planning a coup. On January 25 1981 while 52 Americans held hostage by Iran for 444 days arrived back in US; and Superbowl XV: Oakland Raiders beat Phila Eagles, 27-10 in New Orleans, she was convicted and received a death sentence, which was suspended for two years and then commuted to life imprisonment in 1983. After her death/suicide with her own belt in 1991 the government reported that she had been released from prison for medical reasons in 1984.

THE DEVELOPMENT OF BEIJING OPERA DURING THE CULTURAL REVOLUTION

Chinese theater differs from most Western political theater practices, for it is process-oriented and does not focus on the performance as the sole purpose of theater. Beijing opera therefore has a higher mission than merely to entertain and amuse. It appeals not only to the senses, but seeks also through the avenue of thought and reflection to expound the meaning of life. The moral is one of the most important elements, as well as one of the most prominent features, of Chinese drama.

While all operas performed during the Cultural Revolution were to serve the proletariat-the traditional repertoire were divided into two groups.

Military plays (wu) based on old stories and legends, and are akin to historical plays. They emphasize heroic action and intrigue, and the acrobatics and martial arts of their battle scenes are particularly spectacular.

Civil plays (wen) love stories, or concerns of the daily social problems. Plays of this genre often explore social norms prevalent at the time of the play's writing, or those of the time the play takes place.

Two poems that say what Anchee Min seems to be saying.

A woman of many callings...
Li Jin was her birth name,
'Used Shoe.' From her father,
a carpenter, she inherited
her proletarian feet.

Li Yunhe, a man teacher
called her, 'Cloud Crane.'
She was young, tall, thin.

An opera singer in Wuning,
she called herself
--for no known reason--
'Blue Apple,' Lan Ping.

But it was Mao himself
who named her Jiang Qing,

the night she came
like a line of Tang poetry,
a 'Lapis River,' bluer than blue,
into his Yanan cave.

. . .

In the beginning was the end.
'Let me dissect myself before you,'
she once said, quoting Lu Xun.
But she never did.

Not even in her last chapter
and verse she left behind
for Deng Xiaoping, that 'little bottle' of a man.
That 'braggart king,'

she called him
in the death note she wrote.
'Don't feel happy too soon.
You will not have a good death.'

The only stones she had,
her words, she aimed at him.
Blaming him for everything,

on May 14, in Qin Cheng,
China's Prison Number One,
with her own belt she hanged
herself...

and felt,
for the first and last time,
beyond her need
'to turn grief into strength,'
the unbearable weight
of history, her heavy heart.

China's Last Lady

Jiang Qing
one of the gang
Mao's widow
his fourth wife
who never really
lived with him
after Liberation
in 1949
has outlived
herself
is ready to die
but life for her
goes on for her
in Qin Cheng
a prison not far
from Beijing
where she has
a room of her own
but not much
is left for her
not movies not
lovers not China
only rag dolls
she sews
for children
she never sees
knowing that
face in China
is self is pride
and saving it
a career
I wonder
if before she
sews the buttons
on for eyes
the smiling
mouth the nose
those dolls
she ever sees
a child's face
her own face
innocent
and confesses
all at once
her guilt
how without
intending to
she became
the Chairman's dog
when he told her
to bite she bit
and just
for a second
regretted it
all her country
men and women
hurt lost
gone dead

Johann - Almost seems like Anchee Min is working out her own psychodrama doesn't it? Certainly must have been a strange sort of calling to have been tapped by the woman herself to, by proxy, act out her own story.

Barbara's Back!

The piece where it is described that paintings of Mao have him resemble the buddha intrigue me- back to the original thought in the intro wherein political movements are often hard to delineate from "religion". I wonder rather than a painter's deficiency, that his portrayal is not in fact a kind of sublimation for the masses- in the them of those athletes on the wheaties boxes

The detailed background Barbara provided is very welcome and helps the reader put things into a better perspective. I felt a great need to check on things I had read before and half forgotten. I have one short book, fewer than 120 pp., by Frederick King Poole titled MAO ZEDONG, 1982, that has some pictures, the last of which shows a gigantic portrait of Mao displayed in Tiananmen Square and mourners, looking tiny, bowing before it. The chapters are concise and aptly titled, the index is good. But the new spelling is not consistent (the author still refers to Peking, for example). In the years since, a great many more manuscript were (allowed to be) translated from the Chinese, and a newer book MAO ZEDONG was published in 1999, the author is Jonathan Spence who has written eleven books about China. On page 97 the author tells us that Mao had two sons with Yang Kaihu, (who was wife # 2, I believe; they were sent to Russia. In 1936 his then wife was He Zizhen with whom he had children also. She went to Russia for medical reasons. And the author says

"Now that she and the children were gone, Mao set up house with a twenty-four-year old actress from Shandong named Jiang Quing, who had been one of the young people who made their way to Yan'an as the war began. Their liaison was resented by several Communist leaders who had liked and admired He Zizhen. Mao and Jiang Quing had one child, a daughter Li Na, born in 1940. Li Na was raised in Yan'nan and grew to adulthood, being the last of Mao's four surviving children from three different women. Six of his other children died young or disappeared."

I am going to look for more references to MM in Spence's book (188 pp.) Incidentally, the book has no pictures and, lamentably, no index. There are notes on other literary sources and on each of the 12 chapters. There is a map that shows the vastness of the country and the geographic relationship to the closest countries/nations.

Traude

The detailed background Barbara provided is very welcome and helps the reader put things into a better perspective. I felt a great need to check on things I had read before and half forgotten. I have one short book, fewer than 120 pp., by Frederick King Poole titled MSAO ZEDONG, 1982, that has some pictures, the last of which shows a gigantic portrait of Mao displayed in Tianmen Square and mourners, looking tiny, bowing before it. The chapters are concise and aptly titled, the index is good. But the new spelling is not consistent (the author still refers to Peking, for example). In the years since, a great many more manuscript were (allowed to be) translated from the Chinese, and a newer book MAO ZEDONG was published in 1999, the author is Jonathan Spence who has written eleven books about China. On page 97 the author tells us that Mao had two sons with Yang Kaihu, (who was wife # 2, I believe; they were sent to Russia. In 1936 his then wife was He Zizhen with whom he had children also. She went to Russia for medical reasons. And the author says

"Now that she and the children were gone, Mao set up house with a twenty-four-year old actress from Shandong named Jiang Quing, who had been one of the young people who made their way to Yan'an as the war began. Their liaison was resented by several Communist leaders who had liked and admired He Zizhen. Mao and Jiang Quing had one child, a daughter Li Na, born in 1940. Li Na was raised in Yan'nan and grew to adulthood, being the last of Mao's four surviving children from three different women. Six of his other children died young or disappeared."

I am going to look fo rmore references to MM in Spence's book (188 pp.) Incidentally, the book has no pictures and, lamentably, no index. There are notes on other literary sources and on each of the 12 chapters. There is a map that shows the vastness of the country and the geographic relationship to the closest countries/nations.

Traude

Good site that has photos of Chinese Opera The Beijing opera is considered by most to be the most refined.

And yes, religion or philosophy is the bases of Chinese political life. Until 1905 and for over 800 years anyone entering government had to pass many tests on material studied from the Five Books of Confusias. Confusianism is the basis of social political thought for China and that philosophy affects womans role in the Chinese society. I learned much by my background reading that allows this book to be so much richer illuminating these thoughts, especially the role of woman in China that I am blown away and finally understand the concept or Chinese rational of killing girl babies and foot binding aside from the horror of the acts as we understand them based on our feelings emanating from our value system.

Traude you too-- I also find it hard to just read and enjoy words and phrases without relating the story to its time and place in history.

I must say, now that I found out all this about the value the Chinese put on tradition, philosophy, learning, family and ritual behavior, reading books by Chinese writers had been like enjoying a garden without really seeing the flowers and realizing the temporary beauty of some flowers nor the astonishing skill required to grow certain rare blossoms. As usual, I can only enjoy with what I know and from my values and culture.

Reading Chinese Thought from Confucius to Mao Tse-Tung by Herrlee Creel, University of Chicago and Chinese Woman Since Mao Elizabeth Croll a fellow of Queen Elizabeth House and Faculty of Social Studies at Oxford University this is a bit of what I have learned.

The Chinese have a long and glorious culture and they were shocked, their pride wounded after the Boxer Rebellion that they could not vanquish the western invaders. China did not and does not want to buy western culture lock stock and barrel but only the science and technology of the west.

The Chinese value things of the mind. They see the value of skill that could combine various materials to make a machine to produce goods cheaply, buth they thought more highly of the art of making it possible for human beings to live together in harmony and happiness. Western businessmen, operating in China under privileged status, were frequently arrogant, cynical, and predotory. This made it easy for Communisist to represent that capitalism as practiced in the Western democracies is a system of oppressive economic exploitation.

A century of invasions of China's territory had left scars that could not quickly heal even if special privileges for foreigns were abolished. Chinese asked, could nations that had been guilty of injustice and practice the barbarity of two world wars have a culture that offers the perfect pattern for mankind. Yen Fu writes that Western progress has culminated in four achievemtents, "To be selfish, to kill others, to have no integrity and little sense of shame." This bite is charactierized by our spirit of aggressiveness and competition which we are most proud, our spirit of expansionism.

Individuals and businesses must make more money this year than last year, we must export of die, find new market and constantly widen our territories as well as, our spheres of influence. Sooner or later expanding results in conflict which we only deplore but we do not analyze its cause. Contentment is not a listed as a virtue but as a sin so dark that we are reluctant to pronounce its guilty name. In excess it becomes laziness and irresponsiblity.

Confucius tought twenty-five hundred year ago li life is in part ceremony that imparts rhythm to life. Most of us in the modern West have little use for ceremony, we think it is mostly foolishness. We live in a jerky pace rather then the rhythm essential to tennis or swimming.

The West sent missionaries, teachers, doctors and vast sums of money to China. We believed we demonstrated true friendship. China may have been able to forgive the injuries inflicted by the West but could not forgive their charity that usually accompanied reproach for doing things "wrong." As if speaking to children China was told they must modernize, abandon their traditional way in government, law, religion, social and economic practices and copy ours in order to achieve success. China is a very proud nation in fact one of the proudest people. The proud can bear abuse far more easily than charity.

The Chinese interpret every gift and every generous, helpful act as part of a gigantic imperialistic plot. The Western democracies never really gave much real thought to China's problems and its basis in ceremony and traditional specific courtesy based in philosopy from before the Christian era.

Russia did not ask China to discard their culture and replace it with that of Russia. The Three Principles of the People aimed to curb the strong, support the weak, promote justice, destroy imperialism and capitalism. Sun Yat-sen the "father of the Chinese Republic" was disgusted with representative government and asserted that it could only lead to corruption.

Eight of the thirteen member of the Politburo studied in Russia and China expected to create its own Chinese Communistic society using the tenets of Marx and Lenin. The revolution is to bring justice and happiness to all but the basis of Chinese thinking is in Confucianism and Neo-Confucianism which re-interprets the new ideology of equality, making change far more complex.

change of pace- met a woman this weekend who'd had her feet bound, she is 24. proud. now though negotiates her world stuffing western sneakers- nikes because the logo is a smile. this is not a 'simple' woman, good job in tech field, excellent salary.

YiLi: I had no idea that this practice was still continuing up to 24 years ago. Did she come from an educated/professional/upper class family, do you know?

š...jane›

Did any of you happen to see the Sun NYT Arts & Leisure section ? There is a long article about the astonishing, enduring nostalgia for Cultural Revolution-era "model operas", which remain popular in China. The article asks, why this nostalgia for the fruit of China's chaos ?

If I find a reference or passage that is relevant to our discussion here, I will quote it.

Thanks Traude. For a very VERY comprehensive look at contemporary Chinese art and the influence of the Cultural Revolution - go here:Images, Words and Violence: Cultural Revolutionary Influences on Chinese Avant-Garde ArtThis site is DEEP. EmmaBarb if you're still around - you need to check THIS out!!

Charlie

Here's a link to the article Traude spoke about: Nostalgia for the Fruits of Chaos in Chinese Model Operas
Charlie

Charlie W., Yes...you knew I would. The word "art" always catches the eye. Also you saved me looking for the article Traude had in her post. Edit: Cannot get that NYT one ....something about having to register?

Emma

I think if you register (which is free - then you can get it). When I go to a NYT link my cookie already has me identified) so I always forget about that.

I am truly glad that the NYT article could be so easily reproduced.

That possibility had not occurred to me -- because I am admittedly hopelessly and eternally technically inept.

Many thanks to those who are truly "with it".

T

I did not feel comfortable asking questions- including the one, "is it legal" but I believe she is from a traditional and wealthy family based on her educational background and access to good education in china. what just really struck me was this vibrant young woman who had bound feet which are these tiny triangles re the description that she balanced on in american husky sneakers that she had stuffed so they would fit. IThis was such an amazing statement about the world as it is. Writing this, I picture her- an outstanding vision permanently imprinted in my mind.

I'm flabbergasted that she can even walk and function standing at all...trying to imagine these little triangles where my size 8s are is mind-boggling. Even with stuffed sneakers, it must be the equivalent of "clown" shoes for her...but is that how the "bound feet" are handled in China....shoes aren't available that really fit these disfigured, stunted feet are there?

š ...jane›

Bound feet...This subject really is fascinating to "Westerners". I remember though, from some of our past discussions (Memoirs of a Geisha, Waiting, Good Earth) that even we (here in the West) have (or once had) certain similar forms of the same kind of binding - physical or mental.
Charlie

But how can they function ? Indeed. For one thing, they walk in short, dainty, hesitant steps-- when they are Japanese Geisha who have relatively little physical work to do. But what about the mobility of rural Chinese women obeying the same tradition, who work the fields ?

Those of you who read WAITING by Ha Jin may remember the wife Lin was so anxious to divorce ---- her bound feet were not the SOLE reason but an important one, nonetheless.

Bound feet supposedly had a highly erotic appeal -- just let me find the reference in WAITING, and I will share, if you wish. T

Yes, Traude, I recall that...but I thought Lin felt it was the sign of a poor, unpolished, country "hick," as it were...and yet it sounds in MM as if it were an attempt to make the girl child suitable only for life as a wealthy woman...one who would be carried about.

But, maybe it's the physical equivalent of the way some girls were raised...to be "good wives"...ie, no education, but to cook, clean, etc. Ah, yes...binding does come in all forms, Charlie...be it the abaya (?) of the Middle East or the "barefoot and pregnant" of the USA...

š ...jane›

Chapter 12 is the point in the book when Lan Ping becomes Jiang Ching.

"I have parted from my old role. I come out of blue and enter the richer color green. I am a butterfly out of the cocoon, spring belongs to me. My name has become part of my lover's poetry."

She faces a different audience, as she says - yet there seems to be a certain nostalgia for who she was - for her former self. This is perhaps the most sympathetic portrait of MM in the book. "I need to color my history red" she says. It is apparent that she now lives for more than herself she lives for Mao and the Revolution. Her life from here on will be the tragic pursuit to try and win over th audience who has come to the play expecting the worst ("the hatred for the actress is in the air before the play opens."). The pursuit of her "true audience." She will be forever on guard.

"I love Mao enough to leave behind a big part of myself, including my passion for drama and movies. I believe Mao's business is more important and I am trying to make it mine too."

Is this just another familiar story of sacrifice - of trying to become something that one is not? Or is it something more?
Charlie

OK folks my dilemma - How to share lots of background information in short posts. I’ve agonized over this and came finally to the decision-- my posts will be long-- I’ll share in as concise away as possible my research based in this rational--

If we were in China reading about a man carefully planting beans to be sold at market to pay his poll tax and his young son rebelled and pulled up the beans and-- as the son went through life he made friends with those in politics expecting one day to become town sheriff, all the while not wanting to even plant a garden much less beans for his enjoyment it would be a simple story where we could identify with the father and son based on our knowledge of the importance of choosing the best seeds, of sweating under the sun to grow more beans all toward paying to have a choice of a leader. But, we know the history of exclusion by the use of a poll tax, discrimination and the amazing concept that the protagonist could make political friends with whites, the history of the Civil War, slavery and the larger economic benefits to maintaining slavery by several nations all giving more symbolism to pulling up the beans and our really feeling his rebellion over accepting his place in society which was being established in all the little nuances of the story.

China is a three thousand year old laboratory of ideas and institutions that are not only different than our character but were developed independent of our culture. I believe the more we learn about those differences the more this and other books written by Chinese authors will be a deeper experience.

My second dilemma, where to start. I think only after having a birds eye view of politics, government and its reflections of the deeper philosophy based in Confucianism could the impact of woman before and after Mao be appreciated and so that is how I choose to start. The majority of this -what- report?-- I'm quoting sentences directly from the books Chinese thought from Confucius to Mao Tse-Tung and Chinese Women since Mao

Even before Confucius, basic, is the emphasis on family. From the Book of Poetry "No one is to be looked up to like a father..." Filial piety is not merely moral but a legal obligation. Filial obligations extend to specifics like defining colors used for various events and the time of day or night for discussions. Example; all important decisions of government are decided at dawn.

The feudal system of early China, Kings could appoint men to rule and dismiss them if they ruled badly. As noble families become stronger kings became weaker,China came to be ruled by officials, and Confucius was a strong advocate of the feudal system.

Aristocrats practiced polygamy on a large scale; producing too many younger sons cast adrift. They became either mercenary soldiers or educated, they formed a mediating class attaining high office thus wielding considerable influence. One of these educated sons is Confucius born 551 BC. He asserted that any man could be a "gentleman" if his behavior is noble, unselfish, just and kind. Birth did not make a "gentleman" only a man’s conduct and character. Education was the key to develop intellectual cultivation accompanied by moral and emotional balance. His students were prepared to think for themselves, taught how to think, finding answer for themselves and go out into the world to work and struggle for his principles regardless the sacrifice. His students were given important official posts remaining true to moral principles repudiating the self serving ideas of hereditary aristocrats cementing forever politics, philosophy and ethics.

Confucius used the term li as moral and courtesy reinforcing each other. Tao "the Way"-- the way of action animated by the ideal of justice that all men are equal and should follow li toward freedom and happiness in this life, here and now, for the benefit of all mankind. "Supremacy is wisdom to know men; virtue is to love men."

Mo Tzu, a student, founded his own school questioning the wisdom of rich, noble,good-looking relatives without merit being assigned rank and being handed the throne.

Mo Tzu concludes that war is not productive but a destructive process for victor and vanquished. That only virtue, justice and good faith would cause men truly and willingly to submit and cooperate with the ruler and one another for the common good of all. As a remedy he proposes "universal love." This is not the emotional love of Christianity, rather, purely a thing of the mind; enlightened self-interest. "Universal love" could be depended upon to make a man act unselfishly in a crisis.

He believes everything must be useful-- music causes man to neglect his work where as, Confucius says "Music produces pleasure, without which man’s nature cannot do." Mo Tzu demanded that Heaven and the spirits intervene in human affairs to punish wrongdoing-- Confucius considers Heaven to be without intelligence and the spirits of the dead to be without consciousness.

Mo Tzu arrive at truth with exhaustive attention to terminology, neglecting feelings, using techniques of logic and dialectics-- “the one who wins is right and the one who is right will win.” Taoist, an even older religion/philosophy says, dialecticians “could vanquish men’s arguments but could not convince their minds.”

Christian or Mohammed mystic seeks communion and union with God. The Taoist seeks to become one with Nature, called Tao standing for the totality of all things. Confucius used Tao for the right way of action-- moral, social and political.

Mo Tzu discipline included one meal a day of vegetable soup and they wore the clothes of common laborers. He considers his students subject to his authority. His doctrines have lasting appeal for the Chinese people. His authoritarian identification with superiors and dogmatic tone are the antithesis of reasonableness; cardinal virtue in China. But, his condemnation of all pleasure and emotions ran counter to Chinese attitude that regards moderation in all things.

This was all espoused some 500 years Before Common time! There are many sites on the Net that further in more depth the variations of the religions/philosophies in China. There were many religions practiced but only certain religions/philosophies became one and the same with Chinese politics and government.

Two hundred years later comes Mencius who studied with Confucius’ grandson. The basis of his political program was that virtue brings success, an army is more important than its armament. Mencius stressed economics to assure the welfare of the people. “Hungry people cannot be expected to be moral.” His scheme divided the land like checkerboards into nine squares with eight families forming an enlarged family, together cultivated the center square for government taxes.

Mencius believed all men were born with the same kind of human nature and that human nature is “good;” This established the relationship between ethics and psychology. Only the man educated in moral cultivation aimed at preserving one’s original nature could be depended upon to remain virtuous in the face of economic privation.

If all men are equally good at birth why do some become evil? If one sows identical grains in different places, that which falls on rich soil and has plenty of moisture will yield an abundant harvest while that which grows in poor soil... proposing Good vs. Evil is as a result of environment and circumstances.

Chuang Tzu, a Taoist, says; "distinction between right and wrong are words used by the ignorant and foolish-- as soon as judgments are passed the integrity of the Tao is violated and prejudice comes into being."

"people do not fear death therefore, what is the use of trying to frighten them with the death penalty? And even if they were afraid, what mortal man is qualified to pronounce this awful judgment against his fellows... Man is in tune with the infinite and a channel for all the power of the universe."

The Taoist emphasis on man’s oneness with nature has inspired Chinese art and give the people much of the poise that has allowed their culture to endure. Its doctrine of relativity of all values contributed to the development of the individual and fosters compromise; emotional compromise and endurance, important in the Chinese spirit.

In 361BC Chu Hsi disagrees with Mencius that human nature is good; in fact he says human nature is evil. Men are transformed by; teachers and laws, by accumulating learning, acquiring training with study that incorporates li and justice into their character by effort. Study must not be superficial; the learning of the true gentleman enters his ears, penetrates to his heart, permeates his entire body, and shows itself in his every action. Everyone starts equal in ability, knowledge and capacity.

Wishing to satisfy their desires men give free rein to their instincts, making themselves a servant of material things.

Heaven is simply the order of nature. Catastrophe were divine warnings against the miss-rule of wicked sovereigns. One should learn the order of Heaven’s laws and act in conformity. Man can enlarge the Way but the Way cannot enlarge man therefore, men cannot think for themselves. Chu Hsi developed Confucianism into an authoritarian system in which all truth was derived from the teachers of the classics.

The people were now regimented but called disobedient-- poor because they did not work hard to enrich the rulers, there was war only because the people lacked enthusiasm for fighting. A philosophy defending the authority of the ruler was developed called Legalism. Legalists advocated strong centralized government which should exercise absolute power by the threat of harsh punishments.

They tried to break up the patriarchal family. They advocated private ownership of land, fixed and rigid laws as a means of achieving their ends, they gloried in war. The Legalistic theory took place chiefly in the state of Ch’in on the western frontiers where Confucian concepts of li and justice were unknown.

This was a totalitarian system compelling individuals to live, work, think on the ruler’s demand and die on the ruler’s demand, wholly for the state, without any regard for individual desires or welfare. Families were mutually responsible for each other good behavior and shared in each other’s punishments. Not denouncing a culprit you would be cut in two, denouncing a culprit would gain the sane rewards of cutting off the head of an enemy soldier. A family including two adult males would have to pay double taxes. All, great and small would be compelled to work at farming and weaving. Those producing large quantities of grain or silk would be exempt from forced labor. Confucians said control might be secured by virtue. The legalists replied that was sheer foolishness; the way to control was to conquer a nation with a rich and well-disciplined army.

Aristocratic families were reduced in power and a new hierarchy of men was created by military merit. Families were broken up, member set against each other by spying and acting as informers, trade was discouraged while agriculture and weaving were encouraged. Rulers become police officers believing all men are self-seeking therefore, they can only be controlled by means of rewards and punishments.

A ruler must employ; power and position - methods - law. Until a ruler occupies the throne the people will not obey. Rulers like fathers do not feel affection toward the people. Pure men are likely to be stupid. A large centralized state requires more administrators with knowledge of certain classical books since they demand specific technical knowledge and skills.

Han Fei Tzu a Confucian that become a Legalist believed, self-seeking is the rule. "When a boy is born the father and mother congratulate each other, but if a girl is born they put it to death... the reason for this difference in treatment is that the parents are thinking of their later convenience and calculating what will ultimately bring them profit. Thus even the attitude of parents toward their children is marked by the calculation of gain. If father child relationship is such than it is foolish and dangerous to rely on virtue, gratitude and loyalty in the domain of political action."

When I read this I thought at first this practice goes back in history and second OK this is an economic decision only thinking that boys as the bread winner would secure the parants old age. But as we go along I learned the ramifications and system supporting this thinking are huge

Where as Confucians emphasis government by men rather than by laws. He influenced courts to have equity and social justice above the law.

Legalists regarded helping the poor with aid from taxation penalized industry and thrift encouraging extravagance and idleness.

Legalist believed people are like the big cats which cannot be tamed but must always be regarded with suspicion and controlled. Legalists regarded law as an instrument for the complete control of all citizens by the government believing small faults should be punished severely inhibiting great crimes from appearing. Punishment is not concerned with the individual but is designed for its effect on all people. They wanted precise laws set and known to all.

History shows war and totalitarianism are always found together and if the condition does not exist the totalitarian system will create war in order to survive.

The "Triumph of Confucianism" was established 140 BC under the Han Emperor Wu a foul mouthed ruthlessly ambitious man who fought by every means fair or foul that promised success. The connection between government and philosophy was established and Chinese officials until 1905 would be appointed on the basis of examinations in Confucian classics.

The Legalists were not wholly repealed, they expanded into a strict and detailed legal code.

Wu’s advisors urged the confiscation of the more profitable industries; salt, iron, fermented liquors making a government monopoly. 100,000 persons were condemned to slavery to work the industries confiscated. In 99 BC a rebellion broke out. When it was suppressed, more than 10,000 persons were executed.

An ancient Taoist manual The Book of Change came to be considered one of the Confucian classics. At this time all things were classified as partaking of the yin or Yang principle maintaining cosmic harmony and the concept of the Five Elements or Five Forces of wood, fire, earth, metal and water were added to the Four Cardinal Points. the Record of Ceremony was reduced to a science. This was the time of the fusion of all the elements of popular superstition and state worship thinly covered under the disguise of Confucian and Pre-Confucian Classics to make them appear respectable and authoritative.

The king is charged by Heaven with the duty of teaching the people to bring out the potential goodness that is in them. Since the ruler looks upon Heaven as this Father he is now called the "Son of Heaven."

Chinese philosophy, no matter how metaphysical it may see, is at base a social and political philosophy so that Chinese thinkers find it difficult to be at ease in a world that manifests other wise.

The New thinking of Buddhism spread to China from India and the Hindu and Buddhist concept of Karma and nirvana, to be born to a high cast or be reborn until you get it right with the goal being one is not born again at all conflicts with the Chinese belief that life is a great deal of suffering and moreover this ceaseless round of rebirths leaves one in a constant state of change giving nothing to satisfy the craving for permanence. What is acknowledged as valuable in that the highest path to salvation is that of knowledge through study and through meditation.

Since many similarities exist between the Taoist thought and Buddhism many Taoist terms were used in translating Buddhist scriptures. Although the populous embraced Buddhism the state officials were silent. Buddhism offered at least a hope when men were living in a hell on earth to be able to hope for heaven after death. It was something the humblest could hope to win for himself.

The Chinese are tolerant and said "the Confucian classics are the flowers, but Buddhism is the fruit." Therefore, all Buddhist Temples are built to accord the Chinese system of the Five Forces known as Fêng Shui From the 3rd to the 6th C. AD Buddhism and Taoism was the dominant intellectual force in China although the official competitive examinations continued to be based on the Confucian classics.

Zen to the Chinese mind carried the essential characteristics of Buddhism to its logical conclusion. There followed a period of Neo-Confucianism that supported Buddhist thinking in Confucian terms in which all things, even bricks consist of Ch’i and li which existed before any object came into being. The Relationship between father and son has li. And that evil arises from the differences in men’s ch’i. Men’s desires should not be repressed, but socialized.

The final changes came about because of the abuses endured by nobly trying to reply to gunfire with Confucian principles and meeting the challenges of the West. China believed it had not lived up to its traditional ideals; if it did they would be strong. They believed their culture provided the soundest basis for China’s development and only wished to modify it to meet the conditions of the modern world. Also, China wants to take over such Western techniques as appear to be advantageous.

In China the family performed many functions that in the West are performed by the government also, much organizational power depends upon the individual’s position, friendships, family connection, his prestige. An officer of the government could not be discharged no matter how inefficient if he were sufficiently well connected. A man with a winning personality and the gift of bargaining could buy much more cheaply than a less talented competitor. A whole series of relationships are taken into account including customary rights and privileges.

The leadership and initiative in Chinese Communist revolution came about from the intellectuals not the peasants who were enthusiastic about the reduction of rents for confiscation and redistribution of farm lands. In 1950 the Marriage Law and the Labor and land legislation outlawed extreme forms of abuse and legally reduced the power of the males of the family to control the movement of women in marriage and divorce offering woman the first opportunity to defy the control of the household head and directly contend the patriarchal authority.

The Marriage Law established supportive legal institutions so that a woman could chose her own marriage partner, reject a violent husband or leave an explosive household altering the phenomena of child brides and baby girls being drowned. The government took on the unique role of assigning education to popularize women’s rights.

China needs the expansion of woman’s employment and established a new ideology of equality redefining women’s tradition roles and redefining the relationship between their reproductive activities; child bearing, child care and family maintenance.

Exchanging women between patriarchal governed households explains the social, economic and political secondariness of women in China. Gradual reduction in the private ownership and management of property suggests the end of the household as an economic unit. This destroys the family estate and the economic basis for the power of the household head over individual members. It was the structure and socio-economic functions of the household which had implications for the sexual division of labor, reproduction and subordination and control of woman.

Woman’s labor is a combination of Income-earning from the

public sector in the areas of; agriculture, industry, science and technology and defense.
Sideline activities from the private sector; which furnished the household with addition income traditionally woman’s work of raising pigs, rabbits, hens or sheep, tending a small vegetable patch, or in small street or neighborhood factories specializing in handicrafts such as embroider, lacquer ware and painting, producing paper boxes, toys, spun yarn or wool, glassware, clothes and shoes with no workshop space provided women are isolated in home-based occupations with low wages with no fringe benefits , important contributions to the household economy reducing the monetary cost of maintenance but lying outside the definition of “work” and indistinguishable from domestic labor that receives no remuneration.
Domestic contribution to the families economic base includes; transforming produce for consumption such as grinding corn, preserving vegetables cooking, sewing, knitting, child care, maintaining family health, and other welfare and community services. The government also relies on female unpaid labor to subsidize economic development.

The recruitment of brides to the groom’s household,praised by Confucius is still normal. In the interest of maintaining and expanding the household as a unit of production and consumption the control of labor and the value of women’s labor was a problem to parents who exercise a criteria judging the worthiness of a prospective daughter-in-law by her physical strength, conscientious work and fertility-- the potentials in making their choice of a spouse for their son. Despite government policy recommending its abolishment, betrothal gifts persist in the form of compensation to the bride’s family for meeting the expenses of her upbringing and now losing her labor. Most woman are not educated at parents expense since the investment will not benefit them. The greater a daughter’s education or labor power, the lesser her economic independence and freedom of person.

A household is a corporate unit of production and have a single family budget to which all members contribute their wages. Normally this is managed by the oldest family member ensuring the reliance of the younger on the older generation. This makes acquiring economic independence and autonomy practically impossible for the young and for women. After marriage a daughter-in-law’s earnings are incorporated directly into the family fund of her husband’s household, often the first debt is the repayment of the debt accumulated at the time of her marriage.

With prosperity the value of the betrothal gift has risen to buy objects such as sewing machines, televisions, bicycles, fans, refrigerators. Although many objects are labor saving for woman working and caring their domestic and child caring load the sales of televisions and radios far exceed other sales.

So long as sons remain the only member of each generation who make a permanent contribution to the maintenance of the household and provide the sole support for parents in their old age, their status within the patriarchal household can not be matched by the temporary nature of a daughter. Sons remain the important source of prestige to women and only through them could daughter-in-laws as additional labor power be recruited to the household. Woman through marriage is one of the major means of expanding the labor resources of the household.

The double, triple and quadruple responsibilities of the working woman is outlined further in the book. The government not only want her to work in the public sector but be involved in community education and decision making as well as bring extra income to the household through her sideline activities in addition to her domestic “work” so that often children are sent to live with grandparents until they reach the age of 20 when upon their return they can contribute to the economics of the household. Work comes first in China today. With the new responsibility system that has groups or coops competing for the highest production, controlling male family members are organizing labor and making assignments leaving woman to earn a more lucrative income from sideline work that does not offer the prestige, benefits or advancement of work in the public sector. And men do not help with the domestic work regardless the government propaganda role models.

With the new divorce law woman are feeling pressure that if the husband is not pleased or if he creates problem in order to take advantage of this new provision, the court will now grant him a divorce on the basis of termination of affection by one party. Legal personnel have argued that men may take advantage of the new provision and it is easier for divorded or widowed men to remarry leaving the responsiblity for their children to the wife with a lower income.

With woman’s value measured by producing sons and not even Mao could influence a satisfactory change from the traditional views of Confusius, that filial responsibility gives men the power, making woman second class citizens with a life of labor and little hope for individual freedom-- foot binding looks good say I sarcastically.

The value placed on family and prestige in obtaining advancement, work, lends a greater understanding to Junli's various marriages. As an earlier post pointed that characteristic similar to Evita Perron.

See now if Madame Mao had read the Classics she would have known she would never be top dog or ruler. As Mo Tzu said no to "good-looking relatives without merit being assigned rank and being handed the throne." and by gosh the opposition was going to be sure her imperfections although not greater than Mao's would be shown to prove she had no "merit."

I see the foot binding as symbolic of the subjecation of women as powerless contributers to the economics of a family and nation. Her mother's comment that she was not made for labor has new meaning knowing what woman, even after Mao, must accomplish. That feeling of total dependance, of being totally controlled as what, a sex object when the woman have bound feet wipes me out. A wonder she had the spunk to rebel especially given her later experience as a child of eight.

It looks to me that Communisim was one revolution but secondary is a woman's revolution that reading this book is outlining the issues without making them into a lesson to study. And so it's all about economics hmmm the use of power and control for economic gain hmmmm

My brother taught me something of I Ching and gave me his coins before his death. He went to study to be a monk but found the discipline too hard to follow...especially since he was diabetic and had emphysema, later to have his kidneys fail and be put on dialysis. If you're interested, here is an interactive I Ching you can have some fun with.

EmmaBarb do you throw your coins and read you divination? When I first tried it, it was so spooky to me how 'right on' was the readings. For the last 10 years I now regularly throw my coins for clarity and understanding.

Wow the site is great - I'm bookmarking that one - thanks!

Barbara St. Aubrey ... my brother gave me this special yellow cloth with the circle and yin/yang symbols around it with the NE SW etc that I put the coins (one of them with a yellow mark on it to show the line) from bottom to top, after shaking them in a special little purse he gave me with yin/yang symbol on it too. Then I'd look it up in my I Ching book he gave me. It was and is a fun thing to do and so far I have not been disappointed in the readings. As you know it is a ceremony and one must concentrate on the question. I'm not familiar with throwing your coins? My method is to pick them out of the purse after shaking it a bit while concentrating on the question and placing them on the special cloth. As you know any coins will work, 3 pennies, 3 quarters, or 3 dimes. I also have some ancient chinese coins I use. The trigrams of the I Ching have six lines.

EmmaBarb I keep a journal of my lines and understandings. This all makes sense to me since my energy, or as some call it my aura, is touching the coins and that connection is what I think allows the hexagram to build pointing to the best interpretation, considering my issue.

Charles The choice of colors is so right on aren't they - Blue for the Chinese sumbolizes-- The coolness of the heavens above and the waters below; the Dragon of the east; Spring; wood. Green is interchangable with blue, in addition pale green depicts the kingdom of death. Red is the sun; the phoenix; fire; summer; the South; joy; happiness; the luckiest of all colors.

When I first started the book I didn't realize she was really an actress, since so many children that experience abandonment, much less witness their mother's being brutized by their father's, shut their true selves off and the expression "all the world is a stage" becomes their truth as they act their way through life while thinking on their feet, trying to figure out the script.

how do you all change the colors of your writing? charles back at your post about MM loving Mao, I wondered as the book progressed what this love really meant. throughout - even when jealous or feeling left out, she espoused love for Mao- not necessarily passion. Last night I saw that new show Gideon's Crossing and the lead actor- can;t think of his name- engaged in dialogue with his friend about "middle aged love", the wife who I thought was rather insensitive and &*&&y, he saw as a woman who truly loved her husband, as the show played out I agreed. I wonder if the same idea of love as an ongoing bond, obligation, loyalty etc. is what MM is feeling for Mao and in the hard years it is the passion and the sense of what could be (or should have been) that is her disappointment- the made up "eyes"?

YiLi...to change the color of your post, you need to use this "code" before the text...

where xxxxxx = a name color like red, blue, green, purple navy....or one of the color numbers. Just put at the end of your text to stop the color.

EX: Will produce this color text You will not see the color until you've posted the message.

š ...jane›

Jane, the information on how to produce color in a print was immensely helpful. I have been too timid to try this out yet and I have a question.

Does the NUMBER of x es have any significance; if so, how ? For red so many x, for blue another ?

Forgive me, I am technically quite hopeless. Thank you, Traude

Traude...not hopeless at all...we all were new to all of this at one time...and yes those 6 digit numbers represent the red, blue and green...if you go here, you'll see the charts and the numbers that are associated with the various shades of colors. There are 16 standard colors for which names can be used...for the others you must use the numbers or alpha-numeric numbers...

Colours for the Web

š ...jane›

okay here is my try at color, i chose peru because i went to the museum today and saw amazing navajo woven rugs with this color in them and learned about the asian influence in rug design

bit of deviation from MM and not sure if i was supposed to put a space between the t and c- and trying to think of something profound to say about the book but guess i'll wait until tomorrow

yeah- oh thank you thank you thank you.

;0)

š...jane›

Jane, thank you for telling me HOW to do this coloring of letters (have printed, will study carefully) and showing me that indeed hope springs eternal;

thank you, YiLin, for proving that it can be done.

Now I have to go practice some place where I will not make even more of a fool of myself.

Gratefully, Traude

Traude...nobody makes a fool of him/herself when trying to learn something new! To experiment and try new things is how we grow, I think. We all had to learn this at some point...so don't worry about making a mistake...somebody will point out the glitch...and it's usually a space or not following the "formula" exactly...but don't hesitate to try it out.

Hmmm...would MM have embraced computer/internet technology...or try to prevent its spread among the people???

š...jane›

Yes, Jane, I think she would have.

She would have embraced ANYthing. The woman had guts- in addition to other talents and abilities normally attributed to and associated with males only. Her rise to power and prominence was nothing short of miraculous - in her time and place !! Talking of glass ceilings when that term had not been coined !!

I am glad Anchee Min, who knows the theater milieu from personal experience, wrote this testimonial to MM (even as I admit again that the book's form stymied my reading efforts).

And, after carefully scanning, again, the two books I have on MAO ZEDONG, mentioned before, by Frederick King Poole, and especially the one by Jonathan Spence, published last year, I found only parenthetical references to the wives. Sad indeed.

Gratefully, Tr

Yeah and Hurrah to both you Yili Lin and Traude and a big Hurray to Jane for new skills learned and taught with such support. I feel like a doting aunt looking on.

It is interesting how history percieves "pushy" woman isn't it, especially a culture that is struggling to see woman as equal and deserving. I'm trying to determine how much of this is a novel-- so much is history and yet we know it isn't a bio. or recorded history.

Barbara...yes, both history...and today's Society, I fear, seem to fear the "pushy" woman...who often seems to be characterized as somehow an anomaly. I don't think these women are...I think they, at least here in the US, were focused on other things than achieving power in Society. Those things were homesteading and caring for families, etc. as they headed west, etc. Any woman who packed up her belongs and family and agreed to head "west" in a covered wagon had more than the average amount of "guts," it seems to me. I think a lot of those "energies" are now being directed into the workplace...and it scares the wits out of some ...esp. the less competent of either gender...and so the "scoffing," degrading language to describe such women.

The old-fashioned (to me) idea that women should "graciously submit" to the "leadership of men" as I believe it was put in one public statement from a religious group, is finding less and less favor among the women that I know. Those women still exist, but I believe they are fewer and fewer in number...or they're women I don't have contact with, which is another possibility.

š...jane›

I think what I liked about this story of MM is that she did not seem to be wrestling with the american notion of either being a "pushy" woman either at home, political life or workplace or being a more pliant housewife (yeeks I hate that word let's invent a new one for the milennium). MM was on a track to power from the moment she unbound her feet. Yet she did not appear to denigrate those who assumed the pliant and subserviant roles. She sspit her venom at her husband's lovers and other's who rivalled her- the rivalry defined by her,what she valued. I think this is an interesting twist on looking at women in power, even as we evolve into comments about modern american women, often we continue the either/or.

Though a senior I still work in an environment where the - women working, men working and outside viewers - believe there have been significant strides made on the walk to equity. I used the word walk not march on purpose

. At work we are governed by external laws and internal rules of conduct- but the subtle inequality remains even when couched in sympathy and supposed good will- hate to turn us around here- but - This inequality screams when a woman is working who has allowed a diagnosis of a threatening illness to leak or she has informed her supervisor, or more foolishly told people looking for some unnamed response (and the one she gets is not what she's looking for) I've seen women with breast cancer for example, who are working each day, making major accomplishments- lose out on leading major projects, "coddled" in the war room, etc. The courtesies not welcomed by the women. Though the men feel chivalrous there is also the hidden agenda that hmm she might die or go out on disability soon, so.... Men on the other hand with similar scenarios, 1) don't tell anybody til their illness is obvious, 2) the boys club gathers round and protects the alpha dog til......3) man knows enough to get his unnamed feelings of support outside the workplace, which makes everyone fee more comfortable. thus, like Mao, they get to be heroic and have buildings and bridges named after them.

PS please please don't make me go to the techie discussion, a quickie on how to change the font size?

where x is from a smallest which is 1 to the largest which is 7.

The default on many computers is 3 which is this size.

This is size 4 which is also nice for ordinary posts, I think.

š ...jane›

"In 1938 Lan Ping finds herself falling in love with Mao Tse-tung. Falling in love with the poet in him...in 1938 he is humble, He is a penniless bandit and tries to catch the girl by selling his mind and vision." (pg 124) Mao hand writes poetry to her and she reads them over and over. This is all fairly prossaic boy-meets-girl stuff, isn't it? Except the "boy" is Mao Tse-tung and the "girl" is the young Madame Mao. "Gradually a god steps down from the clouds and shares his life with her." (pg 125) That's a bit over the top - but she does seem to get to know him and he does seem to share his true self with her - openly and honestly (as it is written). So where does this real love, this true love, go wrong? At one point in their "courting" phase he says to her (pg 127): "You have a scale and I have a weight." They are matched perfectly he seems to say. As it turns out, they may be more perfectly matched than the intent pf Mao's understanding here. Matched better as political partners than as lovers. Where did the love go wrong, though? (Assuming that the love was genuine in the first place, and Anchee Min seems to indicate that it is.) I don't know that this is all that clear. Is it that the political partnership subsumed their personal love? That the dynamics of their relationship became solely dependent on the political aspect?

On the other hand....On the other hand, just before they make love for the first time (or, in the Anchee vernacular "she gives the performance of her life"!!!) - she looks into his eyes and sees the "invisible guards behind the mask. The guards whose duty is to block anyone from entering the path that leads to the master chamber of the mind. The chamber where he is comcpletely naked, vulnerable and defenseless." My own opinion is that they were never "in love" in the first place. Both were incapable of it. When Mao "takes" her - "she feels light filtering through her body. They sky comes to devour the earth. Her pain from the past escapes." This is a woman working under a serious illusion. Her pain from the past is only alleviated through a man who devours her? Not a very liberated concept is it? As they made love "bolts of silk spread in the air of my mind's picture." This looks like the picture on the cover - MM laying on a bolt of red silk. I believe she saw but failed to see. She didn't want to believe.

briar patch ahead - please don't throw me in it!!)

Charlie

Charlie...I think you're right...I think she loved power and he was the means...so she "loved" him to get the power. He'd had two wives and who knows how many "loves" in between...and those kind of men, in my opinion..."love the one they're near" and when a particular woman is not "near" they love whoever is. "Near" here meaning physically or emotionally or whatever it is that the man is looking for at the moment...

š ...jane›

BRIARPATCH??? WHERE???

I found this in my notes but can not rmember if it was from the novel or from one of my late night readings. "The cultural revolution was her breathing stage (don't you love that?) and Mao was the playwright."

ALF- I don't believe that was from the novel. That is good and I think I would have remembered it. That seems to be indicating though, that the Cultural Revolution was a kind of Actor's Studio for MM, orchestrated by Mao. The inference being that Mao was grooming MM and the novel certainly doesn't bear that out. But perhaps I'm reading too much into the sentence.

Charlie

Don't have my book up here by the computer and hate to go downstairs and wake the pooch- I was enthralled last night by a few pages (nearing the end) where there are further descriptions of MM's feelings for Mao. What I find interesting is that her behaviors might change or her anger has been described, but at each juncture in the book regardless of Mao's response or MM's feelings about herself there is this continued avowed "love".

I think we need a working definition of love- either in general to make reference or one specific to this "thing" between Mao and MM.

what I find interesting and maybe a difference between east and west- there does not seem to be an indication that one is loving the other (or not) based on a self love or self esteem model. MM goes about who she is separate from Mao or this "love" and sees herself in the picture- then sees herself in terms of Mao's response specifically in the 'coupling' this is different in the west (i think) and certainly in lots of readings where one's capacity to love and be loved is interwoven with one's own big picture- who i am and how i feel about myself. ??

Towards the end, Jiang Ching's "love for Mao seems like desperation, sometimes like hate." She knows she is losing herself - and knows she has chosen the wrong role. I have trouble calling this love and it seems to me that Jiang Ching is "in love" with Mao because of what YiLi calls the "self-esteem model." It has been the same with every relationship she's had, hasn't it? She admits as much herself (pg. 320):

"She has no instinct for politics. She has been in it for the wrong reasons. It has always been the case. It was the way when she was with Yu Qiwei and Tang Nah. She was in it to get close to the man she loved but ended up losing herself."

Isn't that always the way?

Charlie

Chas: I didn't mean it was orchastrated by Mao only that he was the originator, the creator. I don't believe that he was grooming her, but I do believe she was nurturing him.

As you know I did not finish the book. But may I make one comment :

even though MM (in the words of Anchee Min) "has no political instinct", she clearly knew where the power lay, went after it and successfully associated herself with that power.

As for love, one wonders whether Mao ever took (or had) the time to think about love or the permanence of any personal relationship.

Traude

I wonder if their "love" is truly unique- it is possible many relationships and marriages build upon power and not emotion or other kinds of affection. Would be nice to reflect on some role reversal, woman who held the visible power and the men..."beneath their wings..."

Or upon the lack of emotion, that peculiar deadness, the recognition of which sometimes attracts two people. One of the more telling passages about Jiang Ching and Mao occurs on pg 237. Aside from the politics, the power - there's the emotional vacuum that connects them:

"Sometimes I feel that I know him well enough to forgive him - he is driven not by passion or lust or even his great love of country, but fear. Other times I feel that he has always been a stranger to me. An aloof, emotionally disconnected being like myself."

Charlie

It is the emotional "disconnect" that seems so similar to the lack of "passion" of "emotionality" (if there is such a word) in Waiting and now in MM. Were the people in that time frame raised to not have emotional ties to anyone?

š ...jane›

Now there's a good question! That similarity is odd, isn't it? How to explain it? You may have hit it right, jane. I can't come up with a better explanation.
Charlie

The lack of emotion on Jiang Ching would be so easy to accept and understand given her childhood. Children that experience abandonment and witness the kind of war-at-home she experienced, typically cut off their emotions. Also, given the earlier research that explained Confusiusism is based on a "universal love" that emanates from thinking and study rather than emotion it would fit that both would have a relationship not based in emotional love.

What Mao's trauma is, is not clear. Although he came from peasant stock everything I read indicates his family was high on the food chain so to speak or rather, a fairly well-off peasant family with no talk of childhood abuse. I'm still reading to get a handle on him.

What I can see, as typical of an adult child of childhood trauma, is that Jiang Ching is tied to "needing" the recognition, affection, protection, security, love of a father-- therefore, she would emotionally seek men in her life that could fit that need. Becoming dependent on another to fill her childhood "needs," not met by her real father and that is called being co-dependent. In that, the co-dependent's life revolves around keeping the other happy so they in turn are supposed to supply you with, their meeting your "needs." This puts the one dependent in a vulnerable position to be taken advantage off and abused all over again, often because the "neediness" screams out and the other senses they can add to their power by having power over the co-dependent.

So power struggle-- yes. And Jiang Ching was going to loose that one with Mao because of her unresolved "neediness."

Barbara, glad you pointed out that MM and Mao are engaged in a distorted relationship that is not unusual across cultures and timelines. In all our societies there are those who have specific pscyhological profiles and needs that are not necessarily those of the larger group. Though on so many posts we toy with the society vs. individual impacts on one's development.

I find it telling though that Mao has picked up with another actress who is repeating the cycle, including the cycle of awareness of the fragility of the relationship- though she too wishes to be a MM

This discussion has not spent a lot of time on narrative style, etc. but I do want to share an aha moment. Last night I began to "finally" see the pattern in the narrative and find it quite clever how the author shifts from becoming an omnipotent narrator to MM and MM with a stream of consciousness. Quite unique now that I reflect on the device. Question now is the narrator reliable?

YiLi, do you mean historically reliable ?

As for the narrative style, THAT was the main impediment in my case.

I had been anxious to read the book and ordered it some time before I joined this group especially because I had liked WAITING so much.

The form turned me off, specifically the use of the present tense and the constant shifting between the first-person and third-person narrative voice. My own reaction distresses me, but I can't help it.

Last night I managed to find your wonderful discussions on WAITING (thank you, Betty, for getting me there) ad read for a long time with the greatest pleasure. A great gif

I was not thinking necessarily historically reliable, simple reliable who says she knows what is going on both in scene and setting and in the minds and motivations of the characters. I don't always believe the narrator in that sense. But I also do not suggest she is a "liar", I think more of a child who wishes certain things to be true. Almost like fantasies of the child whose parents divorce or one dies and they conjure up lives and circumstances that make sense to them and bring order to their own world.

I think in terms of the book set in an historical context, we tend to look at truthfulness in terms of the history or the revelation of cultural secrets.

I've mentioned before (probably too many times) that my approach to these books has been to "read a story" first- I don't usually or sometimes at all get into literary critique- I imagine the people as models negotiating situations and circumstances that have some relevance (or not) to my own or observed experiences.

So I guess I was really wondering do you believe this storyteller- forgetting for a moment that she is telling a story about people in history who we "almost know"- just like some kids can tell a great whopper and even as adults we are so tempted to believe them because they are so "reliable" in the telling- which to me is different from believing them because we want the story to be true.

Hmmm that may be YiLi Lin the answer I was looking for when I asked what about this book is the novel. Bottom line as close as an actress gets to a character no one really knows what goes on in another's mind and even an actress playing Jiang Ching or a writer for the play or movie can only take Madame Mao's actions and words and weave togther a story which must be than colored by the writer's or actress' own view of the world.

For that matter does Jiang Ching herself understand the fire in her belly? Unless she had been in recovery, understanding better how she handles life after her childhood trauma, she probably did not analyse or understand why certain happenings affected her as they did or what "needs" she was trying to satisfy. Her life choices most likely seemed reasonable to her and she probably couldn't understand why she was in the predicament she found herself.

When that shift of tense first presented itself it confussed me also Traude. I wanted it to be printed in another color. What it really reminded me of is the original Lloyd Webber play of Evita as performed in London where the part of the reporter standing on the side of the stage in his black leather coat was as important or more so than the musical action on stage. I forgot the word to describe that role but it was heavily used in Shakespeare's plays. They tell the story directly to the audiance, explaining motive and other's reactions to events being played out on stage.

So many of these authors write expecting a film and maybe this was Anchee Min's way of setting up how she wants the story told in film.

To Madame, "every performance was a battle."

I wonder if anyone really knows what is going on? I am not asking that question, Barbara, to revisit the old discussions of subjective views vs. objective views of reality. I just wonder in many circumstances do people truly live informed lives. With that in mind I now ask if that's what Anchee Min was throwing out for us to jaw on, and perhaps that is the secret to the shifts in point of view, quite clever It was just too tempting to not post in two colors, she said, knowing it was the key to look inside the minds of others, and knowing she wanted to ask why we thought Zadie Smith so clever in her literary devices and not Anchee, she also wondered was Anchee missing something or was it because this novel lacked humor. But alas.! The woman digresses methinks.

Wow yes - that may be her very thesis. I found a copy of The White Bones Demon that I have not had time yet to read but I am anxious to see what the difference is in Anchee Min's and Ross Terrill's point of view.

Come to think of it what book with a Chinese theme or written by a Chinese author do you know about that includes a sense of humor. Or is it, since our cultures are so different we are not picking up on humor that may be there? Certanly many of the mythical gods are full of humor.

Alf "a battle" yup...but I see her simply acting out what I imagine is her view of life rather than it being a performance. The need to be perfect, the need to take care of herself therefore, do whatever it takes, the need to impress the powerful so they will give her a chance to succeed especially, since as Chinese culture demands and she is not related to someone with power. Needs that I see as left over childhood needs.

Barbara- I will try to get some "first person" info on that notion of humor.

Can you believe I only read the last pages last night- book due today and libarary closed! But an aside. For most of my life I have had this unusual connection with dolls and stuffed animals. Not that I've had many nor collected, just when I see them- as an adult recently I had the chance to articulate what it was that drew me- and I shared that I often think of the person who made the doll, that something of their spirit is in the doll giving it some kind of "life". Even teddy bears to me have nuances of expression.

So those last pages blew me away, wondering not so much if i've ever touched or walked past a MM doll- but just giving a new layer to this connection, not only imaging that the doll is infused with a maker's spirit (hmm let's read the Dollmaker!) but now I wonder more about the lives of those makers- especially since so many are imported from poor and politically threatened countries. As I write this I am thinking of a mother of a "disappearred" in Brazil sitting at her worktable producing doll after doll and sending it off into the world!

by Harriet Arnow. One of our off-line book group discussed that very book last year. Sad and wonderful ... T

Traude- what's an offline book group?

YiLi, actually, I belong to two such groups; "off-line" because we meet in person rather than by computer. One group meets in the afternoon every 5 weeks, one at night once a month.

Different members in each group, different selection of books, different modus operandi.

T

sounds wonderful, Traude. I wonder are people more outspoken here on the internet when we don't have to see each other, or more in your group- oops I think this is a major diversion from topic, so i'll let it go.

I am very interesting in reading something about another powerful and partnered politico- any recommendations? Somehow I don't think Eleanor Roosevelt is the one, but perhaps she is- I am trying to thing back to history classes was she "persecuted" so to speak for her partnered power? Eva Peron died before the government could unseat her- hmmm

YiLin,

what an excellent term. I think it was Eleanor Roosevelt.

It may be permissible (perhaps of moderate interest ?), to (briefly) answer your question and make a comparison between on-line and off-line book discussions, especially since off-line groups are flourishing more than ever.

But before I do that, I had better ask for an ok from the discussion leader(s) here. Many thanks. T

"PERMISSION GRANTED", said the All-Powerful Wizard

Great Charles is here-- I was afraid you were still up to your ears in boxes for at least another week. I sure would be interested in knowing the difference between the various types of discussions.

Learned something this weekend. I was a volunteer at the TEXAS BOOK FESTIVAL and attended several of the author discussions, readings and panals. One of the authors, a professor at the Univ. of Houston was talking about how to read poetry and lit. I do not remember the word he used but a word that discribed an author or reader dealing with subject matter that is deep and is explaining more than happenings but soul work as well.

From my quick and scribbled notes Professor Hirsch says, a writer cannot get there by themselves, they need help. The more diffecult or deep the writing the more a writer needs to turn to the past for help.

Dante needed Virgil and Dante says that he is using Virgil, making him a brother as he goes deep into purgatory and hell. Most writers turn to the classics in order to find someone who can help them write and dig into themselves.

Professor Hirsch also says, Language interfers with history or a culture and even Whitman was a shy man whose poetry is about Him being the Cosmos the Hero. Alone not behind his pen he was a shy and retiring man. I do not remember who he said Whitman turned to help him turn on the switch that allowed him to celebrate his being the Total Cosmos. But, what I thought facinating, Whitman is most revered in South America and his writings is the basis for Carl Marx. Whitman is the hero or Cosmos of Marxist poetry.

Hearing this I wondered, several posts have spoken about the similarities between Jiang Ching and Evita. I only know of the Lloyd Webber musical that is like a minor opera but I wonder if there is a book that uses the devise of a story teller that alternates telling the story with the heroine, Evita Perron, acting out her story.

From another discussion isn't that something like the Greek Chorus that was brought up when we were reading The Ancient Mariner?

Ha Jin, who wrote Waiting that won the National Book Award last year and we discussed the book here on SeniorNet, was also at the FESTIVAL. (Quite a choice for me in that he was scheduled opposite Ted Koppel but desided I could see Koppel every night of the week on TV) At any rate Ha Jin shared that when he writes he chooses about 5 classics that are about the theme he has an idea that he wants to express and re-reads these books over and over at least 5 times, to see how the author handles transitions and time. All the books are western literature not Chinese. Two of the books I remember he said he re-read for Waiting was Madame Bovary and Fathers and Sons.

What I am making a case for Anchee Min is that possibly she did use Evita, either the Weber production or a book, that I do not know about, as her guide writing her story, since this book is more than a chronological history of Madame Mao's life, but, does portray her inner life, thoughts, soul. Also, in order to be published and read she would have to tell her story in a way that we would relate, therefore, this book although, explaining many Chinese and Chinese Communistic views is not necessarily written from the US governments percpective therefore, it must be using a voice or tone that comes out of western literature or we could not read and relate.

I also learned that Chinese writters are essentially poets that write novels and when the story needs a break usually poetry or a poetic phrase is used as the break.

I did attend on Sunday afternoon a panal discussing larger than life Biographies. Carl Sferrazza Anthony one of the author panalists wrote several books mostly about first ladies. His newest book focuses more on the families than on the women, showing what life in the White House was like on a day-to-day basis and what happens to family members of the President, brothers, sons, fathers who are forever more introduced in relation to the President so that they loose their own identity.

Anyhow he has written a fabulous book about Florence Harding who did amazing things. Because of her husbands scandle she is ignored in history but she was responsible for establishing the first women's federal prison, started health care insurance on and on. This would be a gutsy woman to read, I just wish I took the notes and could go on with all she accomplished. It amazed me and I am excited about finding the book.

It is evidently the only bio of Florence Harding that took Carl Sferrazza Anthony 20 years to write. Taking so long ended up being worth it because his bananza came when his good friend who collects Harding memoriabilia got the winning bid at a sight-unseen-lot in Ohio that ended up containing a wooden box filled with Florance Harding's diaries!

Barbara- Good point about Chinese writers. Ha Jin emphasized that he considered himself essentially a poet when I saw him at a talk last year. Hadn't thought of it - but what you said: "when the story needs a break usually poetry or a poetic phrase is used as the break" certainly seems trus of Anchee Min.

I'll be traveling for a few days and then I'm only a week away from moving - so may be around only intermittently. Thanks everyone for an enjoyable discussion. There is much more to learn about this period - but I think we gained at least some insight.

So thanks charlie- and then traude- who's more outspoken?

Wow Charles I forgot yes, you also saw Ha Jin! Was it an experience where he read from his book or taught or was he seated with other authors or was it a book signing-- and just what happened? What topics do you remember did he cover? If it is inappropriate to share here would you when you have a moment please email me-- Barbara

YiLi, you asked about Eleanor Roosevelt. Several who have written about her agree that she was/is the "most controversial First Lady." She was really despised and criticized for being so forward and criticism of Hillary Clinton doesn't begin to compare with the criticism of E.R.

There are now 2 volumes of biography by Blanche Wiesen Cook: Eleanor Roosevelt, 1884-1933, and Eleanor Roosevelt, Vol 2, The Defining Years, 1933-1938. Good reviews for both. Nice long descriptions and reviews at Amazon.com. Washington Post called the biography "definitive."

Yes and Betty Mrs.Cook was at the Festival also in the Senate Chambers along with Anthony. She spoke about the two books she wrote about Eleanor Rossevelt and explained Eleanor's childhood-- which I had no idea; Her father died of alcohol, probably liver, when he was only in his early 30s and her mother died of saddness at age 29. The father was evidently an ugly abusive drunk. Eleanor from the age of 10 never had a home of her own-- she called the various Mansions eg. White House "Public Housing." And of course her biggest social programs were about housing for the poor.

The third author on that panal was Brands who wrote this new book about Benjamin Franklin.

YiLi, here as promised is my answer to your recent question.

From my experience I have to say that people in ON-LINE book discussions tend to be more thorough, are able to dig deeper- simply because time is in their favor.

The two off-line groups to which I belong are radically different from each other in scope and in the way they are run. That has to do at least partially with their composition, i.e. the mix of people present and their perception of any given book, and determines the course of the discussion.

I have attended meetings where people spoke all at once and then delved excitedly into mini-debates (!), when the socializing beforehand was wayyyyy too long, and when it took forever to decide what the next selection would be ... and also meetings where people sat in stony silence, ill at ease and seemingly unwilling (perhaps unable) to express their thoughts.

Guidance by a well-prepared, firm yet flexible leader is quintessential in all discussions anywhere - but absolutely crucial in off-line meetings.

To sum it up, I believe that people who participate in on-line discussions can be and- from my experience- are more outspoken. As I said, they have the luxury of time, after all. Our get-togethers here are a shining example.

Traude

Traude,

Well said.

Know that you are an encougement to me and I thank You.

Ginger

I agree Truade. I am in a reading group that meets twice a month at our local library. It is quite a diverse formation, consisting of two school teachers, a retired librarian, a Chaplain, a psychologist, a home maker, an ex screen-play writer, a Psychiatrist, his wife ,a social worker (retired) and myself. We are reading an international collection of literature, philosophy and poetry from the Great Books Foundation. Each selection is followed with specific questions geared toward more thorough thoughts and discussion. We find ourselves many times diverging from these questions and are gently pulled back by our head "shrink" Like T. said he is well prepared, firm yet flexible. Unfortunately, the two hour alloted time frame is just not enough time to explore all the various ideas and reflections of this group. I wish that we were reading these selections on SN. There are many times as I am reading I think about one of my fellow SN'ers as we all bring a piece of ourselves to these discussions.

Thanks for all that input. I was imagining we were more outspoken here, but I did not see the time factor. I was just thinking that on the internet we can compose in silence, say it all and then are forced in a way to listen to responses. To me this a boon to communication. We are also not distracted by body language. though I have tried to become more sensitive in how I use my words- sometimes I certainly wish to generate discussion but do not wish to offend.

Down side for me is like with my handwriting- quick, angular, and letters not well formed (according to handwriting analysis because my mind is running faster than my hand) i also tend to not take time to punctuate and rewrite sentences to be more succinct. I guess I post in draft mode!

thanks for the info on E. Roosevelt, think I'll peruse the library for those books.

Me too Yili Lin and that is why I spend a great deal of time here on SN "changing feet" when I open my mouth. I , too, should edit my posts because I have a tendency to shoot from the hip. If I think of a quip or a smart , witty remark out it comes.

But alf isn'th that hip shooting just what keeps us all on our toes? I know I enjoy diverse opinions and sometimes those that really get our hackles up. In fact, I think that is how we then become closer as a community, after the fray we get a better sense of where other people are coming from. Now I am trying to figure a way to relate this to MM- ahaha

perhaps that is what we've seen "not" from MM, she continued to look at the events that shaped her life and the people in it from a single and parochial view.

I'm afraid that the Madame's view was one dimensional. The view was from the top all the way down to the end of her nose and then it stopped.

Alf,

thank you for your comment. I am in agreement with your evaluation.

But -- did the author's portrayal of MM have anything to do with your impression ?

Did Anchee Min perhaps somehow identify with MM a bit too closely ?

Traude

Tru: Absolutely!!!! Anchee Min had everything to do with my perception. I never knew anything about our "Madame" until I read this historical fiction.

Yes, and I think that MM was more limited in her viewpoint than even Mao. though his view became rather paranoid toward the end- and perhaps appropriately so- he at least thought in terms of his adversaries- yes for his gain and survival but he used a good strategy - imaging the way the enemy saw things. That is was MM did not do, in her hubris or in her 'innocense' she enacted revenge or moved forward without examining the positions of others. Perhaps it is because she lived someone else's dream or dream-vision. Her first choice was to "become" by becoming MM- oooh think about it becoming Madame mao, not becoming Jing etc. And perhaps this is the reference to "eyes" throughout she was simply mirrored in others eyes rather than looking through their eyes and her own.

My father used to quote Diogenes "We have 2 ears, 2 eyes and only one tongue so that we could listen more, see more and talk less."

Re Barbara's Post #200: I saw Ha Jin at a Book signing when he was touring for Waiting. He read a chapter from his book and took about 1/2 hour of questions. The thing I remember most is that he considers himself primarily a poet. The idea for Waiting came from a rather well known Chinese modern "folk-tale." It struck me also that he writes in English and thinks in English. He doesn't "translate" his Chinese thinking into English. He was even seemed indifferent toward the translation (by others) of his novel into Chinese for publication there.

Recently, it was announced that his son will be entering Boston University in the Fall and that Ha Jin will also be leaving Emory in Atlanta to take a position at BU.

One of Yi Li's recent posts had me thinking: Anchee Min almost "became" Madame Mao as a young film actress. This event had much to do with her wondering how Jiang Ching came to "be" Madame Mao herself, I'm sure.

Charlie

Not yet finished with my inner work but this book sure sent me spinning in that direction. At first my plan was to quote from the book and realized the number of quotes would take over and the point would be lost.

When in the book Madame Mao speaks from her heart so to speak or thinks on paper her voice is always about fear of being crushed, her deisre to be counted, heard, valued. When she and Mao first meet they share the stories of their traumatic childhood experienced. The difference in each trying their whole lives to right their trauma is Jiang is a woman in a society with dramatically different rules as to how to meet your needs if your are a woman. Mao can tap into his anger and remembered strength taking care of himself as a child, directly with agression and leadership where as Jiang bound by Chinese culture as her feet were to be bound as a child is still looking for a father figure and the individual power so that she is not bound as an object for other's amusment or risk other's abuse for, as she observed as a child, the satisfaction of family obligations.

Bottom line my thoughts went to how life can be lived trying to right childhood truama which not only leaves you opened to being used but the truama can never be righted since usually the behavior that is so painful was committed by someone else and you cannot make up for it. Being angry, sad or frozen not wanting to feel in order to handle the truama allows for a life no different than Madame Mao's who never could figure out why things did not work out for her or why folks could not value what she did. Later she knew she was caught in a web with no way out and continued to act in ways that she questions but also used the power she did have to hurt those that disappointed or hurt her. I would suggest if she could have hurt her father all the others may not have gotten to her. If she wasn't abandoned, alone and scared at night without her mother around, not even in the protection of a house, she may not have "needed" protection that could as an adult woman only be offered by men.

The book "White Boned Demon" seems to tell the same story as Anchee Min tells in a more conventional form with many examples of Confusian thinking explained.

All in all this experience of reading this book has given me pause to examine my own life and my current choices in light of my childhood traumas. What is it I have been trying to fix rather than accepting it was broken beyond repair and there are other qualities that I could act on. Has my life been a series of choices based on righting my childhood wounds.

Excellenat post Barb and I fear the answer to your question and mine:

Has my life been a series of choices based on righting my childhood wounds.

YES

Well am I glad to see a post here- whew election 2000 site has really - there are no words for it!

I read into the last posts that continuous question- how much of each trauma in the lives of women in the books like BMM or Geisha or Waiting, The Good EArth, etc.reflect a life condition brought on by the social or economic conditions of the times- how much by familial choices and how much by individual choices. There is such a difference in interpretation of the "correct" perception of life and oneself in it between Confucious, Mensius, Gautama Buddha, Siddhartha, Lao Tzu it makes one pause and reconsider the external influences - political- religious- historical and familial.

If on the other hand, "life" is perception and if that is true then its true whether we "think that way" or not-

so I wonder if choices, etc. are not perceptions also- - we think therefore we are (sic) which in a way says we think we are thinking, therefore we must be thinking in response to the material world which is merely a sensory world and thus a perception uniquely our own and thus think we make a choice that is really a response to our unique perception.... so in this convoluted way- I ask- could MM have simply chosen to not feel wounded and create an unwounded life?

She could have but from the many quotes I gathered from the book she didn't and without some sort of intervention in one's life to break the chain or habit I think we continue to feel our power is in fixing our trauma.

I don't know that I see a measurment of a "right" life so much as, a life that is a memorial of acting from integrity to our talants rather than reacting to our wounds received from "the social or economic conditions of the times-...by familial choices."

To let go, I think is to understand what Yili Lin, you are saying that-- "MM could have simply chosen to not feel wounded and create an unwounded life."

But to let go without introsepction we deny the richness of our experience encouraging fragmentation and superficiality. As Russell Crescimanno says in his New York City Teacher of the Year Speach,

"Self-reflection is an essential component of the critical thinking process...That we participate in reading, education and life by being more critically involved with the material and oursleves always coming to terms with the question "what does it mean to be human"...This takes an open heart that can feel, understand the interdependent intricacies of the relationship between the individual and society."

I do not think Madame Mao had that open heart. Rather than living between the layers that opened in her life she seemed to be living always on the rubble of her childhood making choice that protected her from drowning in weakness.

As she spoke to Tang Nah-Torvald upon her departure she was really declaring her own fears, "You ought not to waste your life. You ought to perform to to your highest capacity. To show the world who you are...To me it is a sign of weakness ...to have no action, no goals..mistreated by society...to make yourself a victim of fate...by acting weak you are drowning me...I don't allow myself to be fragile, for I know I will break...Sometimes you are kind beyond reason...I don't put up with my enemy."

For me I may not have had the opportunity or inclination to destroy my enemies but I have dismissed them as beneath me which is not acting from power. Real open hearted self-acualized power would afford me the ability to be kind to my enenies not because it is "right" but because I am denying rather than building my own power.

Oh Barb, you must post that quote in Memorable Quotes, or what ever it is we are calling it. That is perfect!

Wow Barbara, yes- seeking power in fixing our trauma!!!!! I did not want to suggest that MM could blithely decide to not be traumatized, underneath any choice and the nature of perceptions that lead to choices is, I think, self-reflection- or the examined life. I am asking though- for those who do reflect- what is it- what is the quintessential element in fictional characterization- that steers the choice.

Since most of our discussion and responses come from an aspect of ourselves or our experience- I must share that my current 'academic work' requires me to continually delve into the world of matter as depicted in human anatomy and physiology disciplines and the world of energy as proposed in controversial and somewhat esoteric disciplines. I find these book discussions a wonderful way to see these two worlds played out from a distance.

Perhaps MM opened her heart quickly, felt the rush and then closed it over. What this book did not do (for me) is give us intimate glimpses of MM with herself- always the actress... A role or a self? I would hope you would consider posting that quote over on Election 2000- the more who read it, the greater your contribution.

Wow glad the quote resonates - I guess I feel compassion for the lady in spite of the horrors she inflicted on her enemies.

I've observed and experienced myself that closing of the heart which then means-- living life as an actress, trying to play the scene (as in all the world is a stage) based on this distorted view of others and your own "need" to "look good," appearing superior, dependent on the action and reaction of others, being overly defensive and unwilling to admit your own human flaws-- I see these characteristics in Adult Children of Alcoholics, anyone with a substance dependency and among adults traumatized as children that have not yet experienced self-reflection, questioning their own humanity and than finding the source of their own power.

As poignant the end, as she embroidered her name in the dresses of dolls, she still had not questioned her humanity as she was, I think, showing her "neediness" not to be drowned as a victim of fate. Of course we will never know if her suicide was to avoid more degradation or maybe, she had reached that point of questioning and becoming so overwhelmed, with no loving support going through her past, she only saw the monster in her past actions and could no longer live with herself. And than there is always that other human reaction-- if you cannot hurt the ones that you believe hurt you, often, especially woman, hurt themselves.

Truly as I read the book I thought OK but is this really all that worth my time. It is only now after the book has settled in that I can see reflected the meaningful questions affecting a lived life.

YiLi, Barbara, if you'll allow me, as a lurker, a thought on the idea of division of choices. In several posts, "choices" were separated into individual, familial, societal camps---or, as I understood the comments, you were talking of a reference for behavior. You were wondering if a certain behavior (a choice) springs from the individual, or from influences of a certain family or from societal influences.

I don't disagree with anything written. I just wanted to add another wrinkle. Sometimes, I can't find a division among the three sources of choice. I see all as context. The individual and the family are a part of, a product of, society (or "culture"). I do recognize degrees, however. Some action of mine might be different from what society generally approves, but I am still a product of part of the larger society/culture. My feminism might "buck the system" in one way of thinking, but where did I learn it? From a part of the culture I'm in.

Self-reflection is easier or more difficult, depending on where you live and on other parts of the larger context. Opportunities, availability of role models, physical and emotional risks----all these plus more factors certainly are different from country to country and decade to decade. And, thinking of MM, who knows what the lasting damage of abuse is----I mean, beyond what we know and discuss endlessly, the truth is, we don't really know. I wonder if science some day will show immune system changes or brain chemistry changes---from extended fear in childhood. Those who do find their way to a healthy life and who benefit from self-reflection (examined life, as YiLi so wonderfully says)---it's so interesting to wonder why they do and others don't. Many theories and some medicine help, but it's still a mystery who responds and who doesn't.

hmmm yes another wrinkle - where does choice of behavior emanate...reminds me of the question Socrates puzzled 'can moral behavior or virtue be tought?'

Betty please no appologies as a lurker - we know that until something is said that hits home few of us post for the sake of posting - glad you added your thoughts.

What amazes me is how folks we consider monsters are ordinary people that experience what other experience but the monster type comes away with a different solution to fix their trauma. Because yes, I'm convinced that most monster types were traumatized in some fashion as children.

One of my grands, all of 10 and in the fourth grade in curious about HItler. Over thanksgiving we discussed and researched and he tried to explain what he was trying to put together. Essentially he was trying to figure out how WW2 started not from a world view but how this man could get a nation to follow him and how he could even think up to do such horrors. Along the way we found the first Anit-Semetic letter Hitler wrote in 1918...amanzing it was all there...his beliefs about what had to happen to the Jews in order for Germany to prosper...why he thought the Jews had no value...and specifically how to carry out ridding the nation of the Jews. This is all before that infamous day in Munich by what 7 or 8 years. And again an abusive home life, an abusive uncle, both parants dead when he was in his teens therefore, living on the streets. WW1 looked good with his circumstances.

A book that had such an impact on me is Too Scared to Cry. Much of the book is devoted to following a group, that are interviewed regularly into their adulthood, who experience, as young children, their school bus being hijacked and the bus with the children in it was buried under mounds of dirt for three days before the children were found. Some blocked the experience completly as if it happened to someone else; others traumatized into all sorts of protective behavior or compulsive behavior, by small experiences, like flashes of color that was the color of the clothing they wore that fatefull day for as long as 15 years after the event when the book was published; some actually got on with their life; some committed suicide during their teen years; on and on.