Oooops. A mistake already. I hit something or other and the message flew up there. I leave the error here to prove my fallibility.

I welcome you all to a somewhat fast-paced reading of The Blind Assassin. Unfortunately, the book is not yet available in paperback, but I hope that some can find it in their libraries.

I looked at the length of the book and decided that it would be good to read a chunk of it this first week, 1-143, to get a good start.

Fear not, I have not yet read the assigned pages myself, but I will. And as soon as I do, I will get some challenging and thought-provoking questions posted.

~Maryal, who has never done this before

Maryal, you may not have done this before but your presence in our other discussions has been a very bright light, and I know that this discusssion will be one of our best, ever, I hope EVERYBODY will be here on May Day because this is one you all will NOT want to miss!

ginny

I do hope you will stop back in when you get back and greet all and sundry.

Meanwhile, we all begin to read S l o W l y, so that I have a chance to catch up.

Just finishing Paradise Lost today in class. Puff, puff, puff.........gasp.

Maryal

Hi Maryal, How many pages? I am on page two and felt that I had been reading rapidly. I will run and swallow more pages. Some science fiction here??? I will have to read all of the posts and sit quietly.

HATS

Maryal, I'm so glad this discussion is here. I've been watching for it and when the Books group said 56 discussions instead of 55, just figured it had to be Blind Assassin.

I haven't started it yet, but plan to this weekend. Without this upcoming discussion, I'm not sure if I would read it or not. As one of my daughters said, when I told her about it, "She's a hard read."

Probably. But with a good helmsman and strong group effort, I have no doubt it will be an enriching read as well. I'm looking forward to it.

HATS & pedln!

Pedln---That's why I accepted the invitation to lead the discussion, so that I would read the book! And I too am just starting. I like Atwood and I enjoyed the first few pages of this book, so when asked to lead the discussion, I said, hey, I already have too much to do, but why not? And that way, I will be sure to read the book. It's so much more fun when others are reading with you.

HATS---pages are up ^ there. I think I said to 148. It's a loonnng book. Not as long as Brothers K, but long nonetheless.

Maryal

Maryal, I can't believe you didn't catch my joke. How many pages means how in the world will I manage to keep up.

HATS

I thought you might have been joking! But I wasn't sure.

Can you tell that this job is making me nervous?

~Maryal

Yes, I can tell your nervous, but you have no reason to be nervous. You're wonderful! We love you, and that includes Kemper Elizabeth (smile).

HATS

Well, HI! Maryal, Ginny, Hats, pedln and all to come!!! Picked up the book at Pgh airport and am starting to read it here in the sunny, red rock country of Arizona. Wanted to see if I could log on to SN from a different computer in another state with my old sign-in stuff. It works!

I've sort of steered clear of Atwood because her Handmaiden's Tale just really creeped me out!! Reviews I read for Amazing Grace weren't so hot - so this is will be my second Atwood book. I'm only up to page 14 or 15, but see that the time shift business is going to annoy me. Maybe, if I keep reading - I'll get over myself!! (smiles)

Maryal, don't sweat doing this!! After Paradise Lost this book has to be a piece of cake!! (chuckling!)

Meg

With audio tapes. When I take my walks in Quiet Waters Park. When I am alone. I will be in here with you, but I do have a problem in that I don't know WHERE in the book (Well, there's a new expression: "where in the book are you?") I am. I do know that I am on Tape 4, Side 8 of 11 tapes with 22 sides. I got the unabridged version so I could hear every word, because I really like this writer. So far, I find myself forming a guess as to a surprise ending twist here. Perhaps the author is leading me astray. Anyway, for a change I cannot flip to the back and read the last chapter. I often do that with a book. I am the Elephant's Child when it comes to curiosity!

I'll just try to get a clue from the comments the rest of you make as to where you are, before I make any comments of my own.

Count me in!

in honor of MegR !! and MaryPage !!

So happy to have you both with us. MegR--Thank you for the encouragement, and yes, this has to be easier than PL although I have taught PL before and I still haven't read enough of this book to form some good questions! I also have just started, but I have to admire the opening sentence:

"Ten days after the war ended, my sister Laura drove a car off a bridge."

Certainly an attention-getter.

MaryPage--I'm just as pleased as punch to have you with us, and I WISH I had thought of getting the book on tape. I listed to taped books all the time while commuting. Why didn't I THINK of that? Your reference to where you are, tape 4, side 8 made me dizzy for a moment and then it occurred to me that you might have CDs of the book? Or one CD? SIDE 8??????

Anyway, if the recording is made by either Books On Tape or Recorded Books, the narrator should read the Chapter Number.

Suffice it to say that you are Way ahead of ME!!

I think I am settling down, getting comfortable in the room. Now I really must get to reading the book.

Today was the last day of classes!. I still have a final to write and grade and a packet of papers to grade from my freshmen, but CLASSES are OVER.

That entitles all to partake of some special School's Out grog.

We must be conservative, however, because Atwood is a fine writer, and we don't want to lose our ability to read.

This is going to be fun.

Maryal

Never mind. I think you simply made a typo. You said there was a total of 11 tapes and that is just about right for the length of the book.

My guess is that you are somewhere around page 108. Just a wild guess.

~M

There are 11 tapes, and they are listed as Tape 1, side 1 through Tape 11, side 22.

Thus I AM on the 2nd side of Tape 4, or side 8!

Tapes, not CDs. I cannot walk with CDs.

Margot Dionne is doing the reading. It is a Bantam Doubleday Dell Audio Publishing, a division of Random House, Inc. ( nothing is simple any more)

ah so, I now understand. What a VERY strange and confusing way to number tapes.

Our chapters have titles, but unfortunately are not numbered. So your memory task will be to try to remember the last chapter title you heard, and I'll tell you where you are.

Anyway, I know you will add to our discussion.

Count me in, too. I hope I can find the book at the library this weekend.

howzat, Welcome to ye!

Good news, all. I made it up to 66. I now know all sorts of interesting things. Soon questions will form.

For those of you who are bothered by the time changes, the book settles down pretty quickly, or rather it is settling at the point where I am. Hang in there. We need every one of you.

~Maryal

Oh dear fearless leader, Maryal. Sit ye down, have some grog and allow yourself to take a breath. As you have stated, the first statement of the book is the attention getter. Atwood has such a wonderful way with words that are so intuitive I don't know how we can read this quickly. For those of you who have never had the pleasure to read a book with Maryal, you are in for a treat!!!

for coming along for the ride. I know, I know, so many pages to read at once, but the reading goes along fairly quickly once you get going. And we only have a month--and there are 520 something pages.

So good to have you with us. Take all the time you need for those grandbabies though. The book will still be there. If you get a little behind, that's OK.

Maryal

Hi, Wait for me. I just returned The Constant Gardener to the Library along with 3 others I just finished so I have to catch my breath. What chapters are we on or whatever we are doing Hi Alf....

Catch your breath, dear imp (cmac) and join in. Maryal will begin tomorrow.

Welcome, Cmac!

I have put a rather ambitious, but necessary if we are to finish the book this month, and altogether arbitray, list of pages for this week up there ^ in the heading.

Read whatever you can. But the first week we will restrict ourselves to subjects that come up in pages 1-143.

Questions (thank you, Marjorie) will appear mysteriously this evening.

~Maryal

Please forgive me for jumping in a day early, but I love Iris' assessment of herself. If I don't mention it now, I'll forget about it.

Page 43. "I am after all a local fixture, like a brick-strewn vacant lot where some important building used to stand."

Jump away!!!!

One of the discussion topics is to share with us some brief quotes that you find significant!

You are psychic, right?

I understand EXACTly why Pedln had to do that.

If I don't write it down when I think of it, forget it!

And you are operating under another handicap---you have the recording and not the book. Oh dear.......

I agree. I write everything down, have for years, because I often have more going on than I can possibly store in short-term memory which I use for teaching and functions like that.

OK, we begin tomorrow. Happy reading to all.

Maryal

Iris is very believable. I make her out to have been born in 1916.

My guess is that her sister did not write the book at all. I think Iris did.

Clues? Lots of things that scared Laura to death, but fascinated Iris as a child appear in both the sci-fi type book within the book, supposedly the stories told by her lover, AND in the main portion of the book. Iris is telling us her own life story, which includes a lot of her sister Laura's story. Everything seems to me to point to IRIS writing the book and then, because Laura was already dead, claiming Laura wrote it!

Also, Laura was an artist. She did not read books and did not write! Iris did, from an early age.

I am listening to the tapes, so I assure you, I have NOT read the end of the book! I do not own a print copy. Just guessing here. We shall see whether or not I'm right.

I love Iris Chase Griffen's memoir. I find "The Blind Assassin," horrid, murderous and bloody. Iris' memoir keeps my feet on the ground. Otherwise, I would feel like the whole book might fly away from me. Her memoir helps me understand the relationship with Laura her sister. As sisters, they are totally different. I find Laura fascinating, or is odd the word? How strange, she takes words said to her in a "LITERAL" fashion.

Reenie teaches Iris to be careful what you say around Laura. "She once told Laura to bite her tongue because that would keep the questions from coming out, and after that Laura couldn't chew for days."

The button factory? As I read about the button factory, I wonder whether it will have anything to do with "The Blind Assassin?"

HATS

I find it difficult to read this book quickly. I've started it for the 2nd time and find more in it now than I did when I read it 6 months ago. The first two pages are so typical of Atwoods style; the depth of her thoughts , the complexity of the sentences. When contemplating the death of 25 yr. old Laura, post accident, she can actually see the "amazed lift of her eyebrows, as is she were admiring the view. " The white gloves: A Pontius Pilate gesture. She was washing her hands of me. Of all of us. This sets the scene for the book, Iris needs gloves and a hat with a veil. We see this veil throughout. I love to think about her sentences. "Some people can't tell where it hurts. God, how true that is, there are pople who whine, cry and moan and are incapable of explaining just "where" and why they hurt. There is so much in that one sentence.

Both of the girls suffered deeply from the very early loss of their mother and the aloofness of their alcoholic father, who was among the walking wounded himself.

The personalities they were born with influenced their different reactions to the same events, yet I feel Laura, being so much the younger when their mother died, sustained the deeper wounds.

I get the inference that both suffered a great deal, yet Iris survived to relate all of the events because she was always balanced; whereas Laura never really was.

Maryal, Hope you're finally finished with essays, exams & endterm grades! Are ya officially free yet? Hope your glass(?es)of grog were enjoyably relaxing after all of that concentration!

Well, to the purpose at hand - Ms. Atwood's latest tome! (This woman does drive me nuts!)

Plot Lines Actually there are five story lines running in this text which divides into two sections:

Iris Sections: a.)Iris'current story in present time -i.e.walks, heart problems, Myra & Walter b.)Iris'memoirs which she is writing and c.) "official"newspaper reports about mainline family members in both clans (Chases & Griffens)

Laura's Novel: a.) the "She & He" section/story of the two lovers and b.)the story of Sakiel-Norn and the Blind Assassin that the male lover creates during their trysts.

I'm not yet sure about what this means yet, if anything, but I've been tracking sections again and looking for parallels (sp? - can't find spell check on this machine!)

Iris vs Laura

This is totally irrational. Yes, opening sentence did grab my interest, but - within those first three pages - I found that I didn't really seem to care about Laura at all! Know this sounds callous too, but Laura chose suicide (& it is always a choice!) as an out, an escape. At this point (or up to p. 150ish), I don't know what Laura was trying to escape from - but coping and methods of doing so interest me more. Iris is the character that has to do this & the more I learn about her childhood - just want to shake old Lilianne and Norval by their ears for what they did to Iris as a child! More later - have to take my brother-in-law to work so I can have the car today to go exploring here in gorgeous Sedona!!!!!

I know! I'm gloating! (Chuckles!!) Meg

Welcome and good morning to all! Looks like I am going to have to go back over these posts, which are remarkable, and (gasp) take notes so that I can respond to at least some of the points you folks have made.

If I leave someone out, it is oversight.

Something I have noticed in my own reading that I find remarkable: I am not a fan of science-fiction with a few exceptions. There's something about it that always makes me feel a little disoriented.

But in the case of Blind Assassin, I am interested in the story the young man tells the young woman when they meet on their secret rendezvous. It is, as he points out, "just a story," and therefore I don't cringe at the blinding and the blood. The people in his story are so generic and nameless as to not be real people to me but rather people in a story.

They are several layers down, in fact. We have the story of Iris and inside it we have Iris's memoirs. Inside this story we have the story that the young man tells the young woman which is inside the story of their clandestine meetings. Boxes within boxes, and knowing Atwood, they will all manage to come together in a neat set.

And now I am off to back up and carefully read what you have written.

More later..........

Maryal

MaryPage---shhhh, but I agree with you as to the author of The Blind Assassin. I noticed the clues also. Did you notice how the adjective describing Laura as author keeps changing, growing more laudatory each time? I am thinking of the newspaper clippings where Laura is first, “a novelist” (15), then a “noted novelist” (19) and then an “eminent novelist” (24). Her fame is based on one book, but in the public imagination, she grows more and more famous. Just like what happens in real life.

ALF---“Some people can’t tell where it hurts” (2). That sentence caught me up as well. One of the reasons that I love to read is finding sentences that name truth--as I have come to understand it--more economically than I ever could have. This sentence is a good example.

HATS---You find The Blind Assassin “horrid, murderous and bloody.” Yes, that seems to be the young woman’s response as well. She keeps objecting to directions in which the narrator goes.

MegR---My classes are over; final exam for the Bible course will take place May 7. I haven’t written the exam yet. Soon, I will be freeeeeeeeeee.

Meg’s wonderful breakdown of all the story lines we have going here is a must-read for all. Check back at post 32, everyone, where Meg indicates, more clearly than I can, the intertwined story-lines.

Maryal

Please tell me what is on page 143 so that I may know how far along you are. I have a comment, but do not want to make it if you have not gotten that far yet.

my tapes don't tell me which page the reader is on!

MaryPage---page 143 ends the first part of another Iris section. She has just told us of Laura's reaction to her mother's death, wrapping herself up in the fur coat. The chapter includes the passing of the seasons after the mother's death and ends with Iris turning ten.

Maryal

Ah! Thank you! We know then, that Laura has already attempted suicide. Only she was so very young, we do not know whether she really knew what she was doing or not. And Iris rescues her, at considerable peril to herself.

This is an omen of things to come.

I am up to Laura being 15, wherever that is in the book. And Iris is nubile.

I LOVE this writer!

Do you see Reenie and Iris constantly protecting Laura? They know she is not like other people, but do not want other people to know it.

Margaret Atwood is also a poet. Here is a short poem:

Spelling

How do you learn to spell?
Blood, sky & the sun,
your own name first,
your first naming, your first name
your first word.


~Maryal

Well Maryal and All - I am your worst nightmare! To be honest, I hated the Handmaiden Tale but I am intrigued by daring and exciting writers and so will give this book a chance! Just starting so I can't write much of substance - yet - but I am interested in the recipe for grog - particularly if it gets me through the first few chapters! More later.

Welcome,CG! to our happy band of readers.

You are not anyone's worst nightmare, I'm sure. Certainly not mine. I too read The Handmaid's Tale (long time ago now) and Cat's Eye (which I loved). So far this novel reminds me more of Cat's Eye, so perhaps you will like it after all. Just keep reading through those first somewhat reader-offputting first pages. Soon the story settles down.

My recipe for grog is a well-guarded family secret.

~Maryal

Welcome, CG!!

Nah,you won't be the only "worst nightmare" here! You have company! Handmaiden's Tale really creeped me out,too back when I read it when it first came out. I still find it unsettling because seeds of those events seem to be present in our society today. I'm still amazed that I'm actually reading this one because I've found Atwood capable of scrambling my brains in ways that I don't like! But enough! Welcome!

Author of Blind Assassin

Ok. Here I go again! Maryal and Mary Page, I don't get this business about Iris being the penner of Laura's novel. On the second page of this book, Iris has learned of Laura's suicide & heads upstairs to get gloves, hat & handkerchief so she can go to the morgue to identify her sister's body. Iris says that, "I opened the drawer, I saw the notebooks. I undid the crisscross of kitchen string that tied them together. I noticed that my teeth were chattering, and that I was cold all over. I must be in shock, I decided." Yes, Iris is probably "chattering" and "in shock" over the news of her sister's suicide, but - I also thought that she was shocked to discover that Laura had deliberately left these notebooks in Iris's dresser drawer for only Iris to find on that day that Laura killed herself.

Iris also mentions numerous incidents when Laura's fans leave things at the Chase family monument or try to "scoop up" some of Laura's ashes.??!!(Pretty gross!)

But - good old Winifred Griffen Prior, "saint on earth" endowed a writingg award in Laura's name to be given to a Port Ticonderoga high school senior. According to Iris, Wini is a bitch. (From looking at what else 'good ole Wini" has done, she sounds like a first-class, royal one! - but more on that later!)

Mary Page, think it was you who said that Laura was the one who drew & colored and Iris was the writer from and early age as possible clue to identity of author. But, Iris was the one who was repeatedly forced to cope and deal realistically with what was thrown at her. Laura was the imaginative one who daydreamed and escaped into her own private reveries. She could easily dream up The B A! She's not this fragile, space-cadet! More later. Gotta go to let plumber in.

Okay, quite possibly my hunch is wrong.

But she does not SAY that Laura put the notebooks there. She went, obviously, to her very own drawer to get her gloves and hanky. JUST the sort of place you would hide an illicit book. And she Would have been trembling and in shock, because Laura has just died. JUST died. Why did she undo the string? Possibly to see whether she could NOW get her book published and claim it was Laura's. Possibly she wanted to reread it to see if there were any clues, really, that would show she wrote it and not Laura.

But now I am on Chapter 6, according to my reader, of the book within the book, and I find a possible third person who more likely wrote that book than EITHER Iris or Laura!

Well, one thing is for sure. At this point, prior to p. 150, that is, we don't know who wrote the book. We know that it was published under Laura's name after Laura's death. I looked back at exactly the passage MegR cites, the "finding" of the packets in the drawer and read it differently the second time I looked at it.

By the way, Emily Dickenson's poems were found all tied up in neat little bundles in a drawer after she died. I think that only 3-4 of her poems were published during her lifetime, and she wrote a LOT of poems.

Maryal

Iris mentions the Sybil on p. 42:

"Yesteray I went to the doctor, to see about these dizzy spells. He told me that I have developed what used to be call a heart, as if healthy people didn't have one. It seems I will not after all keep on living forever, merely getting smaller and greyer and dustier, like the Sibyl in her bottle. Having long ago whispered I want to die, I now realize that this wish will indeed be fulfilled, and sooner rather than later. No matter that I've changed my mind about it."

Ok, so who wants to tell us all the Story of the Sibyl?

Maryal

Well, a Sibyl was a prophet. But I never heard anything at all about a sibyl in a bottle!

Was something wrong with SN link yesterday? Sunspots on the satellite? Tried coming back to finish posting a few times & about 1/2way thru, screen blanked out on me each time! Lost all that I typed. Going to drive Sis to work & then will come back with Sibyl, author & some puzzlements! - if page stays up!

I think there was something wrong with SeniorNet yesterday. I couldn't get in once in the afternoon.

Will wait p a t i e n t l y for your Sybil report. Hope you can make it back to us.

Maryal

The Sibyl

Since I'm not at home & don't have Bullfinch or Hamilton at hand, found something on Sibyl on a Hotbot search. Here's what it said:

"Apollo fell in love with Daphne (daughter of the blind Theban prophet Teiresias [didn't we hear about him in Iliad or Odyssey?]) and when Daphne was taken to Delphi she became Sibyl. Because of his love for her, Apollo granted her the gift of prophesy. . .Apollo granted Daphne her wish for a life of as many years as she had grains of sand in her hand (said to have been 1,000). Daphne spurned Apollo's love, and because she had failed to ask for perpetual youth, Apollo refused to grant her that additional gift. Daphne grew old, rather than love Apollo, and as the Sibyl of Cumae, (in Italy) she withered away more each year until there was little left of her. She was finally hung upside down in a bottle, saying only that she wished to die. Hence, all the Sibyls of Greece were old women."

[...}commentary is mine! source:www:goddess.org/vortices/notes/cybele.html

So, on p.42 Iris acknowledges her heart ailment and the fact that she "will not after all keep on living forever." She says that she's "merely gettting smaller and greyer and dustier, like the Sibyl in her bottle." Unlike Daphne/Sibyl who has lived too long and wants to die, Iris has "changed" her mind about dying soon.

Question begs for an answer: Is Iris, then, a prophetess, a seer, an oracle voice of the gods? Or not? Or does or will it matter?

Author of Blind Assassin

Maryal & Mary Page, my intentions wasn't to challenge your initial inferences about who wrote The B A. You both just threw a curve at me that I didn't even consider. Just shared my initial responses/inferences/interps. I don't know the answer either!

Sci-Fi or Mystery Know what? As I read BA sections, I don't have the feeling that it's science fiction. Doesn't that genre imply a setting in the future? I don't see that here. Other than mention of multiple moons, most of the story of Sakiel-Norn seems to take place in an ancient mideastern sounding society that seems familiar and similar to what we know about cultures back during the time of Mesopotamia/Gilgamesh etc. Wanna talk more about mystery in this, but am not going to try my luck like yesterday & lose typing. I am going to post this and then do another one.

ARRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! It just happened again! Cut me off in the middle of typing! Lost about what I had typed already in previous posting!!! AND - a new glich!- Something sent me back ( in this message typing box) to #48 which I had already posted!!! Am going to try typing message again - but in Word - and try importing it to this message box. Later!

I don't know, "The Blind Assassin" strand seems like science fiction. I say this because so much of that part of the story, presently, seems difficult to understand, at least, for me. I breathe a sigh of relief once I get back to Avilion, Iris and Laura, Reenie and the rest of the family. I can understand mysteries and love mysteries. I am thinking that science fiction would include that which has not happened, could be possible in the future but has not happened yet? To me, "The Blind Assassin" seems more dystopian. I am also thinking that science fiction could just involve "the fantastic." Some of the BA strand does seem impossible or fantastic. Since I am not a science fiction fan, I might be wrong.

After reading farther, I am thinking and hoping that I will be able to relate "The Blind Assassin" strand to Iris and Laura's story.

I love the book! Now, I want to read her other books.On the side, I am reading "Handmaid's Tale. WHERE IS THE TIME to read all of these wonderful books???

I tend to put it in the genre of science fiction, but have total respect for every other opinion. We each may put it exactly where we please; that is the glory of reading!

Thank you so Much, Meg, for that research. I feel sure I have never read about that before! And I, for one, WELCOME challenges to my theories!

I read THE HANDMAID'S TALE and loved it. Did not think they did a good job of the movie.

Science Fiction?

The more that I read this novel, I’m less convinced that the book (or rather the BA strand) is science fiction. Doesn’t this genre imply a setting in the future? There doesn’t seem to be anything futuristic in this tale. So far, the only possible “spacey”thing is that the planet Zycron has multiple moons. Everything else in this story-in-the-making sounds familiar – not alien or “out-there.” Events described so far are very similar to what we know about the ancient societies of Greece, Mesopotamia/Gilgamesh, Egypt (i.e. the Mideast) etc. Does this make any sense????? I’m not sure what I want to call this yet – but, Maryal, maybe this has something to do with why we feel more comfortable with, less alienated by this narration. What do you think?

Puzzlements!- A Mystery Story?

This book, so far, seems more like a mystery story to me than anything. Atwood has definitely “hooked”me – I’m surprised to admit! I find myself wanting to go on with the reading to find answers to a bunch of things – listed here in not particular order:

. P.14 – Richard Griffen’s death notice says that he “was discovered near his summer residence of ‘Avilion’. . . in his sailboat, the Water Nixie. . . (of) a cerebral hemorrhage." Duh! Both structures belong to the Chase family!! Iris’grandmother, Adelia (Monfort)Chase named both after her husband Benjamin purchased each. Why does newspaper obit.credit Richard with ownership when they’ve been in the Chase family for three generations???

. P.14 – Order of surviving relatives: Wouldn’t we expect to see Iris’s name listed first here since she was Richard’s wife? Listed pecking order here is very strange! Laura’s name (she’s been dead for two years!) is listed FIRST!?? Sister Winifred is second. Iris is third, and their daughter Aimee is fourth & last. Why is Iris listed after her own dead sister and after Richard’s very-much-alive one?

. Pp.108,113 & 122 – Politically and Philosophically Polar Enemies: The first article(March 16, 1933) praises Norval Chase’s relief efforts during the depression and his ability to keep his word to and to protect his own workforce. In the second article (December 5, 1934)(like the true robber baron that he is), Richard Griffen bombastically attacks labor protestors seeking to support workers’rights and a labor activist recently released from jail. He belittles “the soft socialism of Mr. Roosevelt”, and praises the employment of the Prime Minister’s “policy of ‘the iron heel of ruthlessness’” to squelch protestors and to deport “tens of thousands of immigrants”back to pre-WWII Italy & Germany. (This guy is a real piece of work!) The third article(December 15, 1934) reports violent turmoil at Chase & Sons Industries,Ltd. “in connection with the closure, strike and lockout” there. Editor of newspaper claimed that “the trouble had been caused by liquor introduced into the crowd by several outside agitators. He claimed that the local workmen were law-abiding and would not have rioted unless provoked. Mr. Norval chase, Presidednt of chase & Sons Industries, was unavailable for comment.” Does anyone else suspect that REG had anything to do with the “turmoil”at the Chase plant? Something a little smelly here?

. Announcement of Iris Chase’s Engagement to Richard Griffen!??!! Why on earth would Norval approve this union to his worst enemy? Why would he allow his 19-year-old daughter to marry a 35-year-old man?????

. Pp.46-47+ Why does Winifred Griffen Prior have so much power over the lives of the Chase gals?

. “Wini” decides where Richard and Aimee are to be buried. Iris seems to have no say about her own husband and daughter’s final resting places! And, according to Iris, Wini would have “barred me from their funerals if she could.”
. How & why did Wini get legal guardianship of Iris’s grandchild Sabrina (Aimee’s daughter)?
. Why was Iris kept from her own grandchild & why did Wini return all letters, cards & gifts that Iris sent to the little girl? Why hasn’t Iris had any contact with Sabrina now that Winifred’s dead?
. Why did Wini list Laura first in the above obit notice?
. Why did Wini set up writing prize in Laura’s name in her will? Has Iris done something so grossly horrible to merit this treatment, - or is Winifred the ace-royal bitch and tyrant that Iris calls her?


. P.? In The Blind Assassin, from whom are both the man and woman hiding? Whom does she not want to know that she’s seeing and sleeping with him? Who is chasing or is after him??

Manipulation of Others

There seems to be a lot of this going on in this book! The guy seems to enjoy “playing”the gal in Laura’s novel, but I seem to be getting the sense that she’s more subltly manipulating him in last two installments.

Norval & Liliane certainly manipulate little 9-year-old Iris when they impose care of and responsibility for 5-year-old Laura on her!

Adelia certainly had Ben “in hand” as did Lilian with “Norval”with guilt-trips over his infidelities. – and on and on!!

Thickening Plot – p. 119 Must be my dirty mind! Thought He was trying to be suggestively punny – considering where they are and what they’ve been doing! (smirky chuckles) Since I’m doing this in Word to try to import to SN message box – can’t see exact wording of your Q about “thick plot.” Will come back to that Q when I can see it!

Well, haven’t I been blathering!!!! I’ll cut off for now!

Well, we Know the answer to # 1, or at least, I have read that far. As for # 2 & # 6, I am guessing that Iris had a scandalous affair that was publicised and lost all custody of her daughter in the divorce proceedings. I swear, if I am right, I do not, at this point, KNOW this from the book tapes thus far. Just goes hand in hand with my guess that the book was written by Iris and not Laura!

I know the answer to #3 and #4. These are closely related.

As to #5, beats me! She intimidated Iris from the beginning, but you have not gotten that far yet. Whether it was ALL personality, or whether money was the major factor, I am not as yet certain.

Mary Page Help! I'm lost here!. What are Nos. 1,2,3,etc.? I did bulleted lists for previous posting in Word - but something changed in copy/paste translation from Word to SN! That"&#61623" business above was a bullet mark in original typing. Lost some bolds, underlines & italics in text too.??

Q: What are you numbering? Items under mystery section above? Meg

No, I was numbering your questions in the order you posted them. I figured out what you had done, but could not fix it for you as I cannot go into your post.

IN THE ORDER in which you asked them. The things that are baffling you.

Good evening to all!

And thanks for carrying on. I spent the whole day in Baltimore with my daughter, first at a pen store and then at the Baltimore Museum of Art. Then dinner. What a fine day, but I am so happy with all your responses and promise to get back to you tomorrow morning with all sorts of comments.

Maryal

P.S. I went into Meg's post and attempted to restore the bullets. Must go back and see if it worked.

My apologies for not getting in here sooner. I had to turn grades in for the plebes before NOON and had trouble accessing the program from work. I can now turn my grades in From Home and by computer, but since all of us seem to wait until the Last Possible Moment (and today is the last possible moment), the system gets clogged up.

So, I am here at last. Time to stop thinking about papers and grades and have a little fun. Tomorrow I have to write a final exam for my upper level course. Twenty-four people in that class--way too many exams to read, especially when half the exam is essays and I have to deal with (gasp) their handwriting. I used to be an expert in handwriting deciphering, but I am now spoiled since they submit all their papers printed out.

______________
Meg found the Sybil of Cumae. Well done! Yes, this is the very Sybil that Iris has in mind on p. 42. She even quotes the Sybil's I want to die. And why, you all must wonder, do I find this Sybil so interesting. When I bumped into the reference to her I was reminded of the British (and American) poet, T.S. Eliot. His most famous poem, "The Wasteland," begins with an epigraph about the sybil from The Satyricon by Petronius. Eliot quotes from the Latin and the Greek, but here is the translation:

"For indeed, I myself, with my own eyes, have seen the Cumaen Sibyl hanging in a bottle and when those boys would say to her, "Sybil, what do you want?" she would reply, "I want to die."

There's so much resonance here. "The Wasteland" is a gloomy poem, published just after the First World War.

Anyway, Iris once agreed with the Sybil and just wanted to die. Now she doesn't.

______________________
HATS--I do so love your enthusiasm. I love this book too. It has me wanting to continue though I have stopped just a little past 143 because I didn't want to confuse myself.

_____________________
As to whether or not The Blind Assassin (the story the young man tells the young woman) is "science fiction" or not doesn't bother me. I am always reluctant to put things into categories. I just think of it as the novel that was published which has a man telling a story to a woman. The man and woman seem to live in the ordinary world of the 1930's. And, no, it doesn't seem very much like science fiction to me, except for taking place on another planet with more moons and funny names for sheeplike animals----thulks--a wonderful name for "blue sheep-like creatures with vicious tempers"(11 and elsewhere). I giggle just thinking of a sheep with a vicious temper.

More later. This grows too long.

Maryal

I caught myself past page 143 last night. Iris' memoirs are so engrossing that I want to keep going on and on. Something bothers me about the newspaper articles. I wonder why they don't appear in their logical places in Iris' memoirs. Are we supposed to know about them now, without any other info?

Or, are they meant to be included in the book, Blind Assassin. I'm not so caught up in that, and am, in fact, skipping parts until I've read more Iris. Then I go back. Don't know whether it's better or worse for continuity.

I agree with whoever questioned it yesterday (and am afraid to press previous to check because my post may then fly off to cyberspace) -- why was Iris not mentioned first in Richard's obit.?

Go for it, girl! Read on and on. Next week we are going up to p. 273. The page breakdown is only for discussion purposes and so that you all don't get ahead of me.

The news articles, or clippings, are exactly that, I think. Articles stuck in the book. I think of my grandmother's old Bible. She stuck the most interesting articles into it, and I read them many years later, all jumbled like the ones in this novel are. They were yellowed and crumbly almost.

I think the articles are like a third section, and they appear as clues to let us know what happened to various people. My guess is that they make a lot more sense if you go back and read them from time to time as you progress in the book.

I know that the articles about the strike make me think that the unnamed young man who is meeting the young woman clandestinely has something to do with the strike. Since "they" are looking for him, and he is "hiding," I assume that he is one of the leaders of the strike or maybe an outside agitator, but I am guessing.......

Maryal

pedln on the Mississippi

Don't you just love it when someone triggers an idea for you? You just did that for me!

In an earlier post, I listed five plot lines in the novel so far:

Iris sections: 1. her current story, 2. memoirs that she's writing and 3. newspaper stories on Chase & Griffen families.

Laura's novel: 4. He-She story of two lovers and 5. Blind Assassin story he creates for her.

I grouped these by subject matter - NOT by how they do appear in the text. When I skimmed over my notes, discovered that your observation IS accurate! Practically all of the newspaper/ magazine articles/ clippings appear in sections of the book that alternate with chapters of Laura's novel.

That reminded me of two things:

1. Went back to pp.4 & 5 - to the prologue to Laura's novel. "She has a single photograph of him. She tucked it into a brown envelope on which she'd written clippings, and hid the envelope between the pages of Perennials for the Rock Garden, where no one else would ever look. . . (descrip in here of photo of He & She at a picnic with a third person's hand at the margin). . .She retrieves the brown envelope when she's alone, and slides the photo out from among the newspaper clippings."

As Maryal noted - there does seem to be a randomness to the "presentation" of these "clippings"- like papers stuck into a Bible. But - there is a parallel action here with Laura's prologue.

2. Most of the questions that I raised in that long #52 came from info in these clippings! I haven't been able to contain myself. I've read ahead & am up to around p.225. I'm learning that later installments of Iris's memoirs give more clarification and explanation, more details,twists and surprises about events reported in clippings. It's almost like these interrupting news articles are like tv teaser ads for coming attractions or movies.

Mary Page & Maryal - Know I'm tapping into pages after 143 - but - there are now 3 possible authors for BA!! My hunch/prediction is still sticking to Laura! (chuckles!)

Well, I'm still with you all, but only up to page 100! Thanks for the welcome! Unfortunately I'm off to army reserve drill this wkend and I don't suspect my hardback will stuff into the duffel nor barrack mates put up with late night reads! So will have to do "extra duty" next week! Surprisingly though, I'm enjoying the book! Myohmy! Here's to giving authors a second chance!

I like both sisters really, but I would rather meet Laura in more gentle surroundings - over cafe latte in a paris cafe or in a hat shoppe in NY! While she protests, I think she rather looks forward to the story and storyteller! There is something significant about this story (obviously because the book title originates from the story) but I'm not sure it's scifi - however your comments give me something to "chew on"! Is there a context in the early 1900's for such imaginative and cosmic works or are the lovers just "wild and crazy"?!

I'll have to just pay more attention to the stories and less to the plots - for a few pages anyway!

Cindy

I find Laura a sweet, naive and ultra-loyal person. I also do Not find her very verbal AND I think she is so unworldly it is a severe handicap to her. I do not believe she could function in the world. In short, I think she is missing a bit in the brain cell department.

Well, if we knew the color of the hand in the margin of the picture, we would know who had the picture in her possession. You'll know what I mean when you get there.

Meg, I gather you have figured out the same possible third person I was eluding to earlier. The person who wrote Blind Assassin, I mean.

MaryPage, I agree with you about Laura. She seems kind, tenderhearted. I think she takes after her mother who was involved with doing so many good deeds. Laura thinks of the destitute, those who are hungry and suffering. Iris? I think she is stronger. At times, I feel she becomes tired of being the strong one, the older sister who must take care of her baby sister. So, I see Laura as dependent and Iris as independent.

I think Reenie knows the pulse of the whole household.

So far, I don't know what my response to Laura is.

What fascinates me is that we see Laura, so far at least, only through the 82-year-old eyes of her older sister, Iris.

The present of the novel is 1998, as you can tell from the newspaper article about Iris presenting the Laura Chase Prize at the high school (31). This ceremony is in May of 1998. Iris tells us (73) that she was born in "early June" of 1916. Thus, in the present, she is almost 82.

In 1998, Laura has been dead for MORE than FIFTY years, having driven off the bridge in May of 1945(3). If Laura were alive in 1998, she would be 79 since she is three years younger than Iris.

When Mother dies, the girls are nine--Iris--and six--Laura. The year would be 1925.

Iris is told by her dying mother "I hope you'll be a good sister to Laura. I know you try to be" (93) and by her father when he takes her to get the soda, "If anything happens, you must promise to look after Laura" (101).

What a terrible burden for a nine-year-old child to bear.

I'm sure I will have more response to Laura as I continue to read, but right now she seems to me to be the typical younger sister. I know that she is described as "strange," but I don't see it myself. Yet. Except for driving off the bridge, of course.

Maryal

I rented the book from the Library and read it one weekend. I found Laura was wiser than Iris. They both grew up in a time when women where expected to behave in a certain way. While Iris did exactly what was expected, Laura marched to another drummer. I found Iris to be handicapped emotionally, and her sister in law a complete b****. Iris seemed to come into her own in her later years, only to have regrets. I found myself talking back to the book, telling Iris what to do and say. I have recommended this book to my daughter, sister,and sister in law.

Belen47, I feel the same way about Iris. To me, when Iris describes Laura, she gives an unfair picture. It's almost like she wants you to dislike Laura.

I have been wondering who is the woman on the front of the book. I think it is Iris. This looks like a sophisticated woman, and that is how I think of Iris.

Welcome to our discussion, bellen!! I am sure you will bear with us as we read the novel in increments. Next week we will go up to p. 273, which is just about half way through.

It's good to see that someone else talks back to books. I talk back to movies and TV shows as well, not aloud, just in my head.

I am a fan of Margaret Atwood and am fascinated by her style of writing. She seems to pack so much into her sentences.

Tomorrow, people, I have to give an exam, but I will take Blind Assassin to read. Must catch up with those of you who are ahead!

Oh my!

Maryal

Phew!  I am here and have reviewed all of your comments.  You are all so interesting and I am just chomping at the bit to get into "stuff ! "  I have to remark first about the "blind".  We have the father of the girls with a "blind eye" he'd r/c in the war.  (Even though he was unable to turn a blind eye when it came to his country's lack of gratitude and believed that the businessmen should NOW begin to pay back something of what was owed, from this war.)  The Blind Assassin  himself was the most skilfull of youths, who was  once a rug weaver , turned child prostitute, and then escaped in a soundless stealth.

"He sees with the inner eye that is the bliss of solitude."  His eyesight was taken away by the rich and the powerful and he hates them equally.

Have we addressed this BLIND theory and I've missed it?  I apologize if so.

This is why I love Atwood.  When the lovers met for their tryst Atwood describes "his toothbursh in an enamelled tin cup .  It's too intimate!!!  She turns her eyes away.  I love that. An illicit love affair of some type and his toothbrush is "too intimate?"  Doesn't that give you pain?  It did me. "The room is darker now, yet she see more."  My entire book is marked up with sentences just like this one that  I would love to hash over, for hours on end.  Does anyone live near me???

Just picked up the book at library. Can't seem to get into it. Is it me or am I becoming a lazy reader...I shall lurk awhile. Alf, if you want some one living near you to discuss this book, you will have to wait until November when I go South (HaHa)

Well hurray it up imp. I'm ready and willing. Keep reading, it'll catch on in a bit. It is an excellent book, clare.

CMac, Welcome. ,You're right, this can be a hard book to get into, but once you are in it, it moves.

A suggestion -- In Post 32, Meg has described five plot-lines that take place in the book. That description is very helpful. Also her posts 52 and 60. All of the posts offer insights, but if you don't have time to read them all at once, I'd start with those.

Something else that helped me was to start reading just Iris' memoirs, then go back and catch up with the rest.

Stick with it. I doubt you're a lazy reader.

CMac---Don't give up! I know exactly what you mean because I frequently have trouble "getting into" a book I am reading. Last time it happened was with House of Sand and Fog. That first chapter almost stopped me, but then the book did noting BUT move. Give this one fifty pages, and I'll bet it hooks you.

ALF--Welcome back! Believe me, if I had been the one on Captiva, I never would have returned to my home, no matter how wonderful it was or what was waiting for me there. I LOVE that area. Swoooooon. Anyway, I am most happy to see you.

The point you make about Blindness is one that I had not specifically noticed. Yes, the father has lost an eye in the war and he has other kinds of blindness as well. And the title of the Novel within the Novel is "The Blind Assassin," as well as the title of the book itself.

And we have those little blinded children who make the rugs. And the Blind Assassin himself who is on his way to assassinate the king.

Most interesting! This is why it is so much fun to read books with other people. We all notice different things.

And it is all I can do not to just throw in about fifty sentences that I find rich rich rich. Atwood can WRITE!

pedln--Excellent suggestion to go back and read MegR's posts, and thanks for putting in the numbers. That is so helpful.

Tomorrow we go on to the second chunk which I am in process of reading. I read some today while my people were taking their exam, and will have more time tonight. I SHOULD read the exams, but I can do that tomorrow when I am fresh. My choice is 24 handwritten papers with varying degrees of legibility and a fine hardcover book. No choice at all, really.

Maryal

I too think M. Atwood is brillant at conveying intimate moments and descriptive scenes and I suspect that Laura is portrayed on the front cover. Has to be! But don't ya just wanta hear from Laura herself?! Cindy - back from the field!

sorry i mispoke - you think it's iris and i, laura! hum - will we ever know?! cindy

I'm getting there! Well, I am far enough now to know that I guessed right about who the guy is in The Blind Assassin, and also WHO the young woman is! And my guesses were correct! So far, that is.

I love Laura (so far), but I like Iris and feel deeply for her. My guess is that a lot of this novel is either autobiographical for the author herself, or for someone closely related to her; say, a mother or grandmother. The details of those girls growing up rings too true. Her being sacrificed at the wedding altar in the name of Mammon, rings true as well, and is reflected in THE BLIND ASSASSIN in the story of the sacrificed maidens.

That would be Iris. She was dark and Laura was blond.

I think it's Laura---on the cover, that is. Actually not Laura, but a representative for Laura. There's a description on p. 45:

"There was a picture of her in the local paper last week, along with a write-up about the prize--the standard picture, the one from the book jacket, the only one that ever got printed because its the only one I gave them. It's a studio portrait, the upper body turned away from the photographer, then the head turned back to give a graceful curve to the neck. A little more, now look up, towards me, that's my girl, now let's see that smile. Her long hair is blonde, as mine was then--pale white almost, as if the red undertones had been washed away. . . .A straight nose; a heart shaped face; large, luminous, guileless eyes. . . .A tinge of stubbornness in the jaw, but you wouldn't see it unless you knew."

The hair color isn't right for either of them, unless we are talking about very dark blonde, but the pose and the heartshaped face--I think it's Laura.

Welcome back from boot camp, Cindy. Seems that you survived. The very words "boot camp" make me tired.

Maryal

This week, we have a new section to explore. If I may, let me add just a few pages--6, to be exact. If we read up to 280 then we will be at the end of the next installment of The Blind Assassin, the novel inside the novel. I meant to divide there and somehow or another made a mistake.

Onward to page 280!!


Questions most likely to appear tomorrow.

Maryal

Well, this derelict is back. I've been cavorting for a few days: sillinesses with my sister & brother-in-law here in AZ, and bedeviling (and being tormented by-[smiles]) a bunch of macaws, Moluccans & cockatoos at a local sanctuary for abused feather critters.

Request for help from anyone Never did French. (Was a Latin & German gal instead) There's an expression on p. 186 (end of second paragraph : fin de siecle! Does anyone know what this means? Can't find it in the dictionary that's here.

Maryal, Are ya done with those essays & exams yet???? Sure hope so! (chuckling) This Atwood lady just frustrated me so much that I had to go ahead and finish reading the book! Actually made it up to p.521 this afternoon.

CMac, Maryal has given you good advice. Wade thru the first 50 pages and you'll discover that the pace does pick up and that you'll want to read on to have questions answered.

ALF, I'm so glad you brought up the blindness theme. As Maryal said, there are multiple forms of blindness in this novel - both literal and figurative sightlessness, BUT - there are also multiple blind assassins in this tale too! Your comments reminded me of that.

It means end of the century.

I was mistaken. I thought I remembered Iris saying she was dark and Laura was blond. Just heard a portion where she, Iris, is described as blond and Laura as white haired. Laura must have been what we call a towhead.

Welcome back, MegR---We have missed you. I have some brand new questions up top, put there by Marjorie, who is the most efficient header-maker in the world. Boy, is she good!

Anyway, please feel free to bring up whatever other items that concern you or interest you. The questions are only to get you thinking......or that is my hope.

Iris notes that women are often painted in intimate moments, "All those paintings of women, in art galleries, surprised at private moments. Nymph Sleeping, Susanna and the Elders, Woman Bathing, one foot in a tin tub--Renoir, or was it Degas? Both, both women plump. Diana and her maidens, a moment before they catch the hunter's prying eyes. Never any paintings called Man Washing Socks in Sink" (261-2).

Seems that what is at issue here is the Male Gaze, the intensity with which men hold women in their gaze.

There's another example of the male gaze when Iris lunches with Winifred after her engagement. Iris describes the Arcadian Court: "This was where the ladies lunched, up at the top of Simpsons department store, on Queen Street--a high, wide space, said to be 'Byzantine' in design which meant it had archways and potted palms), done in lilac and silver, with streamlined contours for the lighting fixtures and the chairs. A balcony ran around it halfway up, with wrought-iron railings; that was for men only, for businessmen. They could sit up there and look down on the ladies, feathered and twittering, as if in an aviary"(229-230; my emphasis).

Pretty obvious that Iris feels "on display," like a rare bird in an aviary.

Maryal

Iris went along with the marriage to Richard Griffen because her father told her it was important. She has always done what was expected of her by her parents. She wants to please her father more than herself.

I have not achieved a complete picture of Laura yet.

Atwood has helped me remember the dreadful depression and the clothes of the period. Also a lot of attitudes which were prevalent then.

The tutors were typical and quite believable.

Yes, the Alex Thomas thing is believable. At first, I had an instinct to hate him for taking advantage. Then I realized his life was in danger, but in using the girls he was not taking anyone else down with him if caught. No one would consider the girls criminal accomplices and have them killed as well!

Laura gave her sister a picture so that they might both have one forever to remember him by. Much more interesting than that fact is the way she first treated the photos: cutting herself out of Iris'es and Iris out of hers. The coloring of the hands is most fascinating and indicative of all.

Well, I'm passed the first 50 pages and I shall continue on. Like the rest of you, I wonder about these news clippings. Why is Laura's name first and Iris' last. Did Richard and Laura have a thing going? Am I reading a mystery into this novel? I think the Blind Assasin is more Pseudo than Science fiction. I shall struggle on....

It was interesting to read about the union and organizing activities taking place at the button factory. What I kept remembering, not from that period, but my mother's comments during the period of House Unamerican Activities Committee, and the McCarthy period.

She felt them to be unjust because, "They don't remember what things were like during the depression. People would put there name on anything just to get food. They shouldn't be considered communists just because they signed up for causes in the 1930's."

Yes, there is a good deal of mystery going on in this novel, it seems to me. We have the problem of Laura's novel, The Blind Assassin, which caused such a stir. Did she write it?

We also have the large question of just what went wrong for Laura? One of the first things we learn from a news clipping is that she drove off a bridge. Iris thinks that it was deliberate. The witnesses saw no attempt to control the car. Sure looks like suicide. But like All Suicides, this one leaves a trail of questions in its wake.

Those two little girls growing up in an old Victorian house with a hired girl, Reenie, to mind them and a father who is remote or drinking (which amounts to the same thing).

Iris, who is 82 in the present (1998) of the novel, is a Survivor. Laura died at 25. Laura's fame is all posthumous and largely forgotten except by a few who bring flowers to her grave.

Those scenes when Iris visits Laura's grave remind me of the visitors to Scott and Zelda Fitzgerald's grave which is about ten miles from my house in Rockville, Maryland. If you go to visit the Fitzgerald grave, you will almost always see a few flowers and a couple of wine bottles. Sometimes candles. The cemetery folks clean up periodically, so the grave is never messy, but there is evidence that fans have been there and left their tributes.

Grave of Zelda and Scott Fitzgerald

Maryal

We are posting at the same time. I remember my parents talking about strikes as well. And I remember the McCarthy hearings. I was quite young, but we had a black and white TV and I actually watched a little of the coverage. At the time, I thought it was almost like a movie. The drama seemed so unreal. And yet I knew that it was "real life" and that these hearing were actually taking place in Washington.

What a time that was.

Maryal

First hand memories that Atwood evokes? Can't say there were any. But, Labor problems and unionization efforts and squelching did evoke familiarities. Pittsburgh has been a bastion of union activities for ages. Reading sections on labor problems reminded me of Thomas Bell's novel, Out of this Furnace. Bell authentically recorded working conditions in area steel mills, mines etc.in late 1800's through the turn of the century - especially the notorious Homestead strike. Frick and Andrew Carnegie pulled in the Pinkertons & gross horrors resulted. Like REG (Richard E. Griffen -found I kept listing him as "REG"- by his initials in my notes - sort of like the Latin "regis/rex" for "king"), Carnegie was a self-crowned powerhouse who also manipulated info fed to the public so that he'd appear in the best light. Endowment of all of those Carnegie Libraries & Carnegie Musical Halls came AFTER the Homestead strike atrocities. These financial bribes were an attempt to whitewash his name/reputation after he had been exposed nationally for condoning conditions in his mills and for endorsing the lockouts and slaughters at Homestead.

What Atwood evoked in me was much more personal - and that's why I guess that I've been identifying/sympathizing with Iris more in this novel than with Laura. Am going to post this - so that I don't lose it in a longer message & will continue in another posting

Shoot! Almost finished with a response to arranged marriage question & it was swallowed up - disappeared into cyberspace - AGAIN! Will try old trick of typing in Word & importing to SN. Back later!

Wow at times this book can be very depressing. I'm glad I'm aging in the Twenty first Century. Iris sure tarnishes (is there such a word)the golden years. The more I read the more I wonder just who is the women with Alex. I don't think it is Laura. Seems more like Iris, as this women seems too intelligent for Laura. She also goes shopping for and buys stockings. Doesn't Iris go shopping to get out of the house. She also buys stockings. Is anyone else of that oppinion. Am I way out?

I especially like the quote "The season's turning on its hinges, the earth swings farther from the light." I guess it struck me because we have just changed season's.

Too much for my brain...I shall put the book down for now and finish my Robert Parker book. It is more relaxing.

Ginny, if you are still around do you think Iris's doughnuts are as good as Peter Pan's?

Ok, Andy so I'm an IMP

CMac, I have always thought the woman with Alex was Iris.

I Love a lot of Iris'es descriptions of old age. I laughed out loud today when she was describing what would happen to her doctor's face because he had had too much sun on it in his lifetime. Some of her descriptions are sad, of course.

In short, she tells it like it is!

I don't know any of the answers yet for certain. I am just at a point where I think Alex has been seeing BOTH sisters, but only Iris for sex.

Q: 1. Do you understand Iris going along with the arranged marriage to REG? 2. What is her motivation? 3. Why does Laura object?

1. First of all, don't think that Iris chooses to "go along" with this marriage to REG. As she says on p. 226, "I was cornered." She was manipulated and trapped into it, and as a naive (by today's standards) nineteen-year-old, poor Iris has never learned how to speak up for herself. She not only doesn't know how to object, she doesn't even believe that objecting is an option!

Iris hasn't had parental support, love or encouragement - ever. Mommy was a noted "Missionary Mary" out helping others or suffering from poor health. Iris was treated and seen as Mom's resident care-giver for baby sister Laura when she came along. Iris was only "tolerated" and admitted to Liliane's presence - if & when -Iris was quiet and/or helping with the baby. Soooo, Iris desperately becomes a "pleaser" to try to earn/glean some notice/ some recognition that she even exists from Mom. When her mother dies, Iris continues the same patterns of behavior with her father - again unsuccessfully. She's never told that she is loved by either parent. She's only told repeatedly that she has to take care of Laura. What a load to dump on a 9 year-old! Responsibility for a sister 4 years younger - for the rest of your life!!! Why does Iris always have to be the responsible one?

As she reaches her teens, Iris understands that her father feels a sense of failure at having produced daughters instead of sons. So, good ole Norval decides to have the two gals educated as boys would have been and decides that Iris must assume the responsibility of learning his business. Who in their right mind starts giving a nine-year-old economic lessons in a diner right after the child's lost her mother?!!!!! As a "pleaser", Iris just "goes along"with his lunacy while vainly hoping that Norval will acknowledge her worth as simply Iris.

When you reread pp.226 & 227, we discover that Norval has neatly blocked Iris into a corner. He leaves her no wiggle room. He pulls out all of the emotional big guns of manipulation!! He informs her: * that he has already given (his)consent - i.e. given his daughter away. *a certain amount depends on it. *that their futures are at risk Laura's future in particular * that the business and factories, family efforts of fifty,sixty years and even their home (Avilion)are in danger of being lost. Don't ya just want to smack him??!!!All of these financial problems are his - not Iris's! He's responsible for a good portion of these!!! His agreement to swap his daughter for financial stability only goes to show how little he did care for her!

Through all of this, Iris repeatedly says nothing. And, as he has come to expect, Norval takes her silence as agreement. Poor Iris is once again - stuck trying to earn/win/comply to help her dad to make him care for her. Doesn't work!

Think Laura opposes the marriage for possibly two reasons. First, think she's a romantic (as many teenage gals are) and believes that "true love" should be a part of the mix. Secondly, maybe she's more intuitive about REG's character than Iris or Norval. Maybe she senses something negative about him, but can't put it into words. Have a sister like this & her "hunches" about people are right 99% of the time, even though they might not seem so initially!

While reading about the pre and post nuptials I couldn't help but wonder about Richard. What is he seeking in a wife? Surely not simply the button factories, they're not economically solvent. Iris appears to be the exact opposite of what a supposedly debonair eligible bachelor would choose, unless he only wanted someone to manipulate. There certainly is no meeting of the minds, let alone chemistry.

That one is easy! The Griffins were NOT ARISTOCRATS! They had NEW MONEY, made in TRADE! In order to feel they had finally "Made It" into HIGH SOCIETY with good blood, they had to MARRY it. It is clear all through the book that Iris'es father had NO HEAD for business or finance. If he had, he would have set up an irrevocable trust or two for the girls. Instead, being basically a good, though unstable person (unstable due to WWI and the deaths of his brothers), he attempts to keep supporting the entire town by keeping his work force employed. He gambled. He lost. He could not have guessed in his wildest nightmares that the depression would last a decade!

Well, Iris and Laura had the Bloodlines. They were Canadian Aristocrats. They were automatically top society, even in their poverty-stricken status. Richard and Winifred coveted their entree. I am using that term in the old sense of absolute power to be accepted in Top Society. Iris understood this perfectly in her old age. You see bits and pieces of it all through the book.

Mary Page, Thanks for translation of French phrase. Wouldn't ya know it, I found it today in last week's Newsweek in an article reviewing soon to be released movie, Moulin Rouge!

Have also just caught up with reading postings, and Missy M.P., you're leaking info gleaned from 3rd portion of reading assignments! (We don't find out about Griffen's 'status' until then! )

And one of the first days that I have not had to grade, read, think, or drive. Sooooooo I went to Columbia Mall with my exhausted daughter, who is teaching three classes (two hours each) as well as working fulltime. I don't know WHERE she gets this behavior from!

Anyway I was gone all day as it turned out; I came back to discover the thoughtful posts you have made. Tomorrow I will turn the brain back on and find some individual response to make, but tonight I am enjoying the purity of Not Doing Anything.

I have turned in grades. There is just one more process that has to be completed--reports for students who have low grade-point averages even if the grade I gave them is not one of the low grades.

The LIST of these people doesn't come out until tomorrow afternoon. Until then I am freeeeeeeeeeee!

I really enjoyed reading your posts, by the way.

Maryal

All of your questions spark my interest Maryal and all of "you all's" responses likewise - but just to comment on a few today! Regarding the marriage... Life was hard and I believe Iris had a strong survivor instinct. Growing up she had proven she could conduct herself "accordingly" yet every now and again, go against the grain - have an adventure or two! So with unpracticed social skills and dwindling financial resources she may have chosen a safe and secure foundation realizing she could always tap into some mental or physical fun on the side. And he wasn't a bad sort anyway - was he?

Regarding a remembrance...Hiding Alex in the attic reminded me of a recent trip to Germany and a tour of Anne Franke's house. Lines were known to be long and consequently tours short but not that day. Fascinating but eerie place - beautiful country!

Have a nice weekend. Trying out my online underlines! Cindy

Meg R—I’m sorry you keep losing messages. Are you going back and forth to edit? I know the frustration, having lost a number of posts myself. Mostly now, I don’t seem to be losing them. Now that I say that, this one will most likely dance into the cyber ether!

Anyway, I like your point that Iris doesn’t understand that objecting is even an option. She never got to have the normal rebellion against her mother that most teens go through because of her mother’s early death. Furthermore, just about everything she remembers her parents saying to her has to do with taking care of Laura. She feels no attraction to Richard, not even INTEREST in what he is saying, and yet she marries him. After all, first things first and Iris has been well-trained to put everyone else before herself.

Pedln—Good question: What is Richard seeking in a wife? I think MaryPage is onto at least part of the answer in pointing to the Bloodlines, the Canadian aristocracy. Richard has been Iris’s father’s main competitor. What better way to consolidate his fortune than to marry Iris.

CMac—Me too. I would much rather be aging now than any other time I know about. Every once in a while when I dread growing old, I think of those Baby Boomers who are right behind me. They have squawked all their lives, and you can bet that some will continue to be active in the public arena. Look for white hair to become a status symbol!!

Cindy (c Gibbons)—Good to see you again. Your description of Iris as having “impractical social skills and dwindling financial resources” is superb. What choice does she really have? It’s not like University was an option, and she is not trained to do anything else. Because of her mother’s early death, she is also not trained to “assume her place in society” except by Reeenie, who is a servant and whose only help is to continually remind Iris of her high social standing.

Your underlines came through just fine. Congrats!

Maryal

I am pressing on in The Blind Assassin because I had to wait a LONG time for a doctor (just a checkup) yesterday and happened to take the book with me.

Now I really want to know what happened, especially with Laura, so I keep reading.

This is a hard novel for me to address questions to. I'm not sure why, but either everything seems too general or too specific.

Does anyone have some suggestions?

Maryal

Shame on Iris for letting her life become so dull and dreary. Pooh on Richard and Winifred for trying to take control of the sisters. Unlike my first impression, he is a scoundrel!

I'm waiting to find out about Iris's daughter and Laura's demise.

I much prefer the older Iris - her wisdom and humor. Midlife seems so very depressing but perhaps this period in her life helps her to carve out her sharp imagination and brawny spirit.

I think M. Atwood has a gift for writing about journeys. While she writes about life I particularly enjoy her chapters on her travels to Toronto and Europe (back-to-back on pgs 289-308). The former with Walter!

And Maryal - I applaud your efforts. Whatever, it fine by me!

Now I'm off to keep a watchful eye on these midwestern rains! Cindy

Hi all, Am back the chilly 'burgh! Arrived here late last night to low 50 degree temps after glorious sunny & 90 degree days in AZ. Incredible fireworks display of lightening in clouds below as we flew over Ohio! But sun is out here this am.

Maryal, I think the problem with coming up w/ discussion Q's for this book isn't with you as much as with Atwood. As I said earlier, I became so frustrated with this one that I just went ahead and finished it. Think problems with stretching to find things to talk about rests with this book. We have elderly Iris telling us about her current life (in which not to much is actually happening 'cause she's just living it), and we have reflective Iris telling us about her youth and past. Problem with the latter is thatt As a child/young woman - things happen to Iris that are out of her control or even ability to understand at times. If she "doesn't get it" as the narrator, it's hard for us to react to whatever "it" is!

That leaves us with the BA sections - and I just wanna screech over those! (More later!)

Earlier I said that the article clippings are like teasers for a tv show or upcoming movie. Had the feeling that that was what the first 3/4's of this book was! When Iris's awareness and finally active involvement finally kick in (in the last quarter of the book), betcha that this discussion really heats up!

At this point, most of us seem to be either 1) making predictions or 2) responding primarily (but not always) to the obvious. Does make any sense or is this just an example of my sleep deprived brain operating on 1/4 power? (chuckles) Have NO food in house. Heading off to nearby diner for some good breakfast - so I can go buy groceries!

Must tell you my DARK secret. I finished the book. Now I am really flumoxed (?) to come up with questions, but will try to get some together tonight. I just kept reading and reading, and then there was just a small section left, and I still wasn't sure that.........

Anyway, today I am at a one-day conference on "Assessing Student Writing." I will be back later. "Assessment" is all the rage in education today.

More later.

Maryal

No, no, wait for me! I just got back and am trying to fit Iris into every spare moment I have. Wait for me!!!

I won't describe my reading habits except to say they often take place in the middle of the night, and I cheat and go to the end - so I can turn off the light and go to sleep. Then go back and read in the middle. Thus with BA.

Question What do Alex's stories have to do with anything? I assume he is writing either comic books or pulp fiction, but don't understand Atwood's purpose in including them.

Cindy, I'm with you on the older Iris. She calls them as they are.

Maryal, Meg, and all the rest of you -- keep on with your insights. I find them so helpful.

Am off to Maryland and VA -- may get a chance to log on at son's house on Saturday. Then off to an Elderhostel that raises up dead computers. Will probably leave BA with my d-i-l or Charlottesville daughter.

If you see a little white car with PEDLN on the license plate, honk your horn. We need SeniorNet bumper stickers.

GOOD idea!

Winifred and Richard are snobs! Their true colors came thru with therir highbrow attitude at the dinner party. When Winnie stuffed the cheese ball into her mouth "like a funnel" and remarked interesting I had hoped she'd choke on it. "What a charming house, so- so preserved" she said. Grrrr!! Richard, on the other hand knew a tottering regime when he saw one, he knew they were up for auction, soon. I never could take to people with a condescending and pretentious attitude. They are unaware that death and disease does NOT care how patronizing they are.

They did not have a THING going for them except wads of cash. Iris'es father SOLD her into bondage.

Just a dumb aside here. Mailed my book & others from AZ to PA on Monday cause I didn't want to carry them all on the plane. Should arrive today or tomorrow. Anyhow, unpacked small wire-ring notebook I've been using to chart this for discussion & found a slip of paper w/ notes on a word I looked up.

Remember when Iris talked about the ?Imperial Room? where REG supposedly "proposed" to her? Iris said that a good word to describe it was "porphyry." Didn't know this one, so I looked it up.

Porphyry is:1. a very hard rock having a dark, purplish-red groundmass containing small crystals of feldspar. 2. any rock containing coarse crystals in a finer-grained groundmass. 3. (as a proper name) a Greek philosopher AD. c233-c304 [no clue about his beliefs] --- according to the dictionary.

This word sounded familiar to me too. Guess I made the link with that Robert Browning poem "Porphyria's Lover." In it, a lovestruck young gal leaves a party and runs to meet her lover somewhere else. During an embrace, he realizes that she is totally his and does love him. At that moment, he takes her long hair and strangles the chick so that she will remain only his. Always thought that this was a strange piece from the guy who wrote all of those romantic love sonnets to Elizabeth B.B. For some strange reason, it (poem/ and Iris's choice of word) seemed to infuse an ominousness into that proposal scene before she actually relates events & conversations.

More I think about it, porphyry seems to be a good word to describe this book! Have had the feeling that I've been wading though the finely grained "groundmass" for 3/4's of this, and only see a glimpse of the crystal nuggets in the last part of the book. Hmmmm! Also a parallel here with the SHE of Blind Assassin leaving her usual social/family group repeatedly to meet the HE!

These are just immediate & off-the-wall reactions. Need to mull over this some more. Meg

Pedlin, Thanks foe your comments on Alex's stories. They lost me.Psycho.

Alf, Most certainly agree with you. Winifred reminds me of my husband's niece...Grrrrrr I'm almost ready to take this book back to the library with a big AMEN!

A WONDERFUL day in downtown Annapolis, this May seventeenth!

Met Maryal for lunch and shopping. Even got to show off one of my grandchildren into the bargain!

Hope to do this again, and often! So much to talk about; so little time!

I am very impressed. Very!

Cindy—Yes, that is exactly why I had to keep reading, to find out what had happened to Laura and to Iris’s daughter, Aimee. We know that they are dead from the obituaries, but of course, that is not the story of what happened. I also prefer the older Iris. The younger woman just doesn’t seem as real to me. Perhaps she did not seem real to herself.

MegR—I am heartened to hear that my question making problem has to do with the book rather than with me. When in doubt, blame the book. I like that. I cannot wait to hear your take on the Blind Assassin segments. Next week when we will all have read the whole novel, we can really deal with that at length.

Your description of porphyry in post #111 is much appreciated. Not only that but you reminded me of Browning’s poem, “Porphyria’s Lover” which I have not thought about in a lonnnng time. What a romantic fool that fellow was, huh? Just imagine killing a woman who loves you so that she will never stray and love someone else!!! Come to think about it though, what with life always changing and moving, the only way to keep something exactly as it is is to stop the action. Kill the butterfly; mount it on a board. It is no longer a butterfly, of course.

Pedlin—If you are in the Maryland/Virginia area, then you really should have come to lunch with MaryPage and me today. I had such fun meeting her in person; lunch was delicious and I discovered a woman whom I have admired since I first started reading around on SeniorNet. I will keep eyes peeled for a license with PEDLN on it!

Cmac---Winifred is a piece of work, isn’t she? Sort of the witch in the fairy tale. The Wicked Witch of the West—it was the west, wasn’t it?—from The Wizard of Oz comes to mind. Have you all noticed that Winifred favors the color green????? “Ding-dong, the witch is dead, Which old witch? The wicked witch. . . .Ding-dong the wicked witch is dead."

MaryPage’s granddaughter is Beautiful, by the way. As is MaryPage.

Maryal

I've just about had it with Richard and Winnie-the poop, in this story. Dear Lord spare me from the likes of them even though Iris blames herself for her failure to understand him, to anticipate his wishes which "he set down to her wilfull and aggresive lack of attention."  She dresses accordingly, she washes up when told to, her trips are planned to his liking and what he bilieves she should experience.  She could barely understand all of these places and once again feels the "glass eye" , thru the architecture of these visits.  YAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I felt so bad for her as she reminisces about the "honeymoon."  She felt R. was effacing, withdrawing and she was taking shape- the shape that they intended for her.  "Each time I looked in the mirror a little more of me had been colored in."
What a sweetheart he is to protect his wife from the news of her fathers demise.  How very convenient for him to withhold the telegrams in order to spare her and not ruin her delightful honeymoon. Instead of this being a time filled with tenderness , Iris experinces a feeling as if she has been placed in a foreign country, with everyone speaking a different language.  It reminds me of my eldest daughter on her first break from college, she came home and told me that she felt like a hampster in a maze.  I had set her down in a tangle of confused lonliness and bewilderment.  Like Iris, she felt snarled and tangled. How thoughtful of this gentleman to tell his grieving wife to "buck up and forgive him."  Growl!!!!

ALF--The honeymoon is hard to read about, isn't it? Poor Iris is married to a man who appears to lack much feeling at all. Although he acts the perfect gentleman and treats her well, the fact that their "lovemaking" is completely one-sided shows his self-interest and unawareness of his wife. In fact, he rather likes her non-participation.

I wonder how many women have gone into marriage with no more information than Iris had. Can you imagine what many Victorian women must have experienced? The one thing that Iris seems to enjoy about her marriage to Richard is the clothing. What a sad commentary that is.

I read B.A. quite a while ago, so am trying to remember the story and all its fine points. I like M. Atwood's books, but must say, I don't know if I liked this one all that well. I thought it was a "downer" to read - so much unhappiness in the lives of the 2 sisters. The father sure did not take much of an interest; the husband sure did not take much of an interest; and the boyfriend's interest usually was in bed. Although he appeared to love her, but definitely NOT ENOUGH!!

Welcome, choclvr!--I do like your name although it makes me a little hungry.

Next week we will finish this novel, and I look forward to your responses to it.

I have been trying to figure out at what point the novel falls apart--since it seems to me that it does fall apart, at least a little, in the last section. What had been coming together and beginning to lead in one direction appears to fragment. I am not saying this very clearly, but perhaps some of you can help me out once you have finished the novel.

Meanwhile, it is finally raining here and I have caught up on cleaning and recommendation writing. It has been a productive day.

Incidentally, I think that Laura remains a puzzle. She is a believable person to me when she is a child and teenager, but the adult woman doesn't seem at all clear to me. Perhaps Iris herself never really knew her sister and she can only tell us what she knows.

Maryal

I have not yet caught up with the page I should be at since I started about a week late, so some of the questions I ask may be answered later in the book.

I am intrigued by the form of the book--a book within a book within a book. Why did Atwood choose this form? All the books seem to be written from Iris' point of view.

Who is the woman who meets the fugitive in Laura's book? I thought that, if Laura was writing the book, it would be Laura. But it seems at this point (Iris has seen and crossed the street to him; Laura says that she has seen but not spoken to him.)that the woman meeting the man is Iris. If so, how could Laura have written the book? Has Iris written the book and given Laura's name to it after her death? What was the content of the published 'Blind Assassin?' Did it include the meetings between the lovers? Or was it only the science fiction that the young man told?

One other question, although I don't find much evidence for it. Authors and poets like to write about the process of writing. Is Margaret Atwood saying something about writing as she writes about the composition of a story?

I had read up to page 396 - then today turned to the next chapter/page - and darn if there wasn't the Lizard Men again! I just can't fathom this "science fiction" fit in the novel - an odd mix?! And I was dismayed about the comments that the book in it's end fails to answer our questions or rather falls apart entirely! I was hoping for some sort of resolution or celebration!

But to briefly comment...It's interesting that relationships between men and women - a stormy one in this case - transcend time. How would writers compose or what would folk talk about otherwise? But maybe the message of this book is to look above and beyond?! Cindy

Who is the "Blind Assassin?" That is, besides the character in the science fiction story. Atwood chose it for the title of her book, so there must be some important meaning to it? Who was assasinated? Not the mute girl, as far as I have read. Was it Laura? Was it Iris' daughter? Both of those characters are dead. Or was it both Laura and Iris whose lives were destroyed by the circumstances of their lives?--Their father's inattention due to his war experiences and death of his wife, as well as his inability to save his employees. He had a terrible life; his taking to drink is understandible.

Is the assassin people who destroy or hurt others without even knowing that they are hurting them? therefore just about all the characters in the book? or is the assassin life which hurts us all--blindly, it seems?

Artemis, I think that old Margaret Atwood is the "blind assassin" here! She's "done in" all of us who have picked up this book to read. Will have more on this when we get to discussion on the last quarter of the book!

Artemis--In #119, you brought up an interesting point about the book. I think you are right on target. There’s quite a lot about what it is to write, what writing is, what story-telling is, in this novel. In fact, I would say that it is one of the themes of the novel. And then there is the central question of who wrote “The Blind Assassin” which I think is set up early in the novel when Iris goes to that drawer and gets the notebooks after Laura goes off the cliff in her car. Keep looking out for all the references to writing as you continue to read.

Your question as to how the title The Blind Assassin fits the whole novel is an excellent one as well. Let’s throw the question open. Any ideas for why Atwood used the title for both the novel and the novel within a novel?

Cindy--I am the guilty party who said that I was trying to figure out why the end of the novel is as it is. Tried asking myself what it was that I was expecting, but so far haven’t figured it out yet. Don’t worry—you’re not left hanging. There is an ending and questions are answered. But somehow I thought it would be different. I’ll save these comments until we have all finished.

MegR--I know, I know. I am eager to hear your final thoughts on the novel, but we need to wait for everyone to finish. We finish the book this week, so by the end of the week, we can all stop holding back and let loose all these pent-up responses.

~Maryal

Having just finished a book review and shopping for another, I thought I might take a look at the "Blind Assassin". The other day while in our local library I tried to remember the name of either the book's title or the author Atwood with little success for either. It was just as well. This morning, having read some of you folks comments about the book, I don't think I will bother. As for my unsuccessful search at the library, perhaps that was fate intervening.. If at first you don't succeed... losalbern

Writing plays a major role throughout this entire novel. Who was it that said "this is a story within a story?" Iris believed (pg. 260) that the only way to write truth is to assume what you set down will never be read.

Preparing for her eventual demise she has a change of heart as she begins to chronicle her life for her granddaughter to read. When reviwing Laura's "books of knowledge" after she dies she muses about the writing of the angels. They record sins and the names of the damned and the saved or they deliver messages, few of which are good news. God be with you is not an unmixed blessing. I loved that!

There are major thought provoking sentences offered by Atwood: "I was sand, I was snow-- written on, rewritten, smoothed over, Iris described herself when considering the black and blue marks left often by Richard. This pretty much sums up everybody in this novel. Noone seemed to be themselves, albeit Laura, the tragic one.

I , too, agree that it did fizzle out in the last third of the book. It was almost as if Atwood had written 2 stories and combined them. Alex was left undeveloped. Why was Hallie even written into this novel other than to show there was a female figure about when the girls were growing up? Aimee, the daughter bowed in once and was gone as the abrupt custody case was. Richard? Was it guilt? His ruination politically that put him over the edge?? There are far too many unanswered questions in this story. I found myself rewritng this as I read further and further into it. "written on, rewritten and smoothed over."

And will be back later. At the moment, I am on my way to Ricky's Rice Bowl which is conveniently located right next to a Border's.

Can't buy any books though because I have been going nuts buying pens as well as the new biography of John Adams. (MaryPage--Are you listening?) Author won a Pulitzer for his biography of TRUMAN.)

When I return, I will say something about Blind Assassin and your messages.

Maryal

Darling Maryal, there are no flies on me! I went to Barnes & Noble in Annapolis Harbor Center this afternoon and bought the new JOHN ADAMS. It, plus a few more purchases, were a birthday gift from my Missouri daughter, who sent a lovely little plastic B & N gift card!

Happy Pen shopping!

Oh Maryal & MaryPage, I've been reading about that new John Adams book by McCulloch when Lo--- and behold, I turn on CNN (or something) and see him being interviewed. It really moved me when he said that he cried when he put Abigal and John to rest after 69?0 ro 7 years of them being his constant companions. Are we going to read this one?

We should! We should!

Last night I couldn't get on. Just as well since I was exhausted.

Ooooooooooh, I do look forward to THAT discussion on the new John Adams book by DAVID McCULLOUGH whose name I couldn't remember last night. I think I need about twenty more hours of sleep. IRK.

What's a quorum around here, anyway? I would think that three would be enough, and I just know that there are others who enjoy reading biographies. Let's DO IT!

MaryPage---Of course there are no FLIES on you. I was pretty sure you would have seen the book, or read about it, but I was surprised by the actual book itself because I didn't know about it--too much end of the semester glop to wade through. Border's had it right up on the front of the front stand in the store and it was 30 percent off. I grabbed it, thought immediately of YOU. (For all the rest of you, MaryPage and I are eleventh cousins, removed by however many removals. We met on SeniorNet. Amazing, isn't it?

And now I realize I have said nothing about Blind Assassin. I am still trying to figure out what I think about Iris. This gives all the rest of you time to catch up on the reading. I have been informed that we are to keep this discussion going until the middle of next month. (We could always start on John Adams---joke). When I initially broke the book up into reading chunks, I thought we had just a month. WRONG. Alas.

A good Memorial Day Weekend to all.

Maryal

Oh, GROAN! Not another month of B.A!!!!!!!! Right now, I want to strangle that Sunday Telegraph reviewer from London (above)!!!! Don't think that person even read the same book that we've been wading thru for what almost seems like FOREVER!!!!

Yup, Maryal, I also tried to post around midnight last night & SN wouldn't also take my posting! Maybe they're having that sunspot problem again with the satellite???

Wasn't on-line cause was called for jury duty. Exempted because one of the lawyers, one of the police officers and one of the parties involved in the case - were ALL former students!! Go figure! This town just grows smaller & smaller!!!

So, what's up with Blind Assassin? Are we just fast-trashing it in order for a John Adams discussion to begin? Are you really serious about extending this into June? What's up, Toots??? I'm not trying to be flip. Am genuinely confused about what's going on here!!! (Sure am using !!!!! a great deal today!)[laughing}

Darling Meg, if we do JOHN ADAMS, it will have it's own forum here. We do many books at once! First they will try to twist someone's arm to lead it.

i'm all booked up, guys!

There will be an announcement in the WELCOME place for BOOKS, plus a listing there and in the sub-menu under BOOKS in the Main Menu.

If that does not make any sense to you, HEEEEELLLLLLPP someone!

MegR---Not my idea to go until June 16, I assure you. The powers that be have that much time slotted. I'm sure we don't have to Talk about Blind Assassin for that long, but we stay open in case someone wants to drop in and discuss.

Meanwhile......no, we can't really start a discussion of the new bio of John Adams in here, er, not really. As MaryPage notes, it will have to be approved (who could possibly object?), put on the schedule, have a discussion leader, and on and on. But I am excited about the book. Plan to start reading it tonight.

I'm waiting to say what I think about the whole novel, Blind Assassin, that is, until others have a little more time to finish it. Assuming that they haven't all been scared away by my perhaps untoward expressions of being let down. Let's wait until Tuesday to comment on the book as a whole. OK?????

Maryal

Maryal & Mary Page,, Okie doke! Just got a little confused here for a bit! Maybe my brain is still slowly moving East from Arizona & hasn't caught up w/ the bod yet!. Thought we were to have finished the book by the 24th & that discussions on last quarter and entire text were to conclude by the 31st. Will continue to check in to see what is going on with this Atwood piece. Hope all have a good holiday weekend. Along w/ two brothers, am taking nieces & a neph. to see Shrek(sp?) tomorrow after luncheon. We're all ready for a real bit of silliness! More later, Meg

MegR----Shrek has gotten good reviews. Enjoy. It's not your brain that is at fault! I thought that we had just one month because that's generally how long this discussion runs. Thinking we had a month, I posted the reading schedule.

THEN I was told that we were to go until the 15th (or was it the 16th?) Anyway, the error is mine. Soooooo, yes, we were going to discuss the whole book this week, but we won't start now until Tuesday because we have time.

Maryal

I may be out of order here but I'm happy that we will be discussing this for a bit more. I do not wish to belabour a discussion if it's not merited but this is an excellent author. Why do I feel unfulfilled at the conclusion of this novel? It is somehow deficient in its finality, isn't it? It became fragmented more so than was intended, I felt . Could we just address a few of these?

WHO says we have to keep this open until June 16th? We should be able to summarize and conclude within one week, shouldn't we, Maryal. This has nothing to do with the fact that I've just purchased John Adams today and Anne Tyler's Back When we Were Grownups.

I have not quite completed THE BLIND ASSASSIN, but am all ready to discuss THE WHOLE BOOK, including the ending, ANY TIME YOU ARE!

---Well, hurry up, MaryPage!. Discussion will be open to comments on the whole book TUESDAY.

ALF---Yes, me too. Wanted more of a "sense of an ending." And I agree on the fragmentation. I think part of the problem is the lack of a third person narrator, but I am still puzzling it out.

Maryal

I've been lurking and I sense that I should skip this book? Maryal, ALF, MaryPage, MegR others - tell me honestly - should I bother? I love Atwood usually, but for some reason skipped this one when it first came out late last year. That tells me something - can't recall if the reviews were bad (probably not) or if the description of the book within a book just put me off.

Sarah, go ahead and jump right into it. There is not a page in an Atwood novel that doesn't make me take pause. I just opened the book at random and read this sentence , "already my childhood seemed far away- a remote age, faded and bitersweet, like dried flowers. Did I regret its loss, did I want it back?" Sentences like this always strike me to core. That alone is worth the read.(IMO)

Well, I ploughed through to the end! - strange, strange, strange! Now, I await our "all book" discussion - particularly your thoughts on the meaning of it all. But I agree, despite the rich passages, I don't know if we can linger for another two weeks! Cindy

Cindy---Congratulations! I admire your perserverence.

I was thinking of entertaining you all with card tricks when we run out of things to discuss. <G> Of course we don't have to keep discussing for two more weeks. It's just that the next BookClub book doesn't begin until then. Anyway, we have been discussing the possibility of discussing the new John Adams bio. I figure we can close; we can talk about whatever we want; you could tell us all about boot camp!

Maryal

Finished the book while walking in Quiet Waters Park this afternoon. Not so awfully quiet there today. Picnics going on in every one of the over a dozen pavilions, not to mention the many picnic tables. Hundreds of boats in the river and anchored in the coves. You would have known it was Memorial Day, even if you didn't know before.

Loved this book. The writer has a deft way with words. Her descriptions of things were original and delightful; her thinking profound.

Iris was the ever obedient servant to parents and husband, until the very last. After Laura's death, she got her dander up. It was as though she were just born. Richard and Winifred had become her parents, but she threw them off and stood tall on her feet and WALKED!

Is everyone finished? Can we speak more about the total book?

I truly, truly loved it!

MaryPage---Oh good!! Well done! TOMORROW jump right in and praise the book to the skies. Everyone has had some extra time to finish, and we are now ready to take on the whole book.

maryal

Ok, here I go again - sticking my neck out!(chuckles) Get your guns ready! (laughing!) I really didn't like this novel. In one of my earlier postings, I mentioned manipulation as one of the themes that I noticed. Since I've finished reading the whole thing, feel that Atwood was the biggest manipulator here of all - she manipulates her readers to continue reading to try and grasp what she's trying to say/show & then doesn't deliver!

Granted, she does have talent creating "bon mots" (looked that one up to make sure I have the right word), one sentence pithy observations and metaphors, BUT - this novel really sucks in terms of story telling.

Have been trying to figure out why that was true for me as a reader. The scrambled presentation of info (Iris sections, Blind Assassin portions [with its multiple story lines] and the print clippings) were annoying initially, but they didn't bother me after a while. Just sort of took them in stride as a given for this tale. Had empathy for the abuses, gross manipulations and losses that both Iris and Laura endured throughout the novel, BUT I think that the thing that bothered me the most was that there wasn't a connection to or with the characters.

Someone said (was it Maryal?) that maybe this book needed a third person narrator. Thought about that and really think that Atwood's best choice for this was first person - i.e. Iris's voice - since these are all Iris's stories. What seemed to be missing here for me was a genuine connection of Iris to her own life, to Laura, to Alex, to her daughter and granddaughter to what actually occured. Reading thru this I had the sense that I was listening to someone relate or read a document that belonged to someone else, a document that had no vested interest or importance for the reader(Iris). It was as if she was delivering info with no connection to her. There seemed to be no emotional investment on her part at all. Does this make any sense?

Didn't feel or have a sense of any of Iris's emotional involvement with anyone or anything. Didn't see or sense her anger, disappointment, love, or even hurt. She seemed to be emotionally removed from everyone and everything. We felt pity for her circumstances because of situational events, but she seemed removed from them.

When we read House of Sand and Fog, DuBus gave us three main characters who were really dispicable at times, but we were able to empathize with them and even admire them at times - because we were "let in" to their inner selves to see how and why they reacted the way that they did. Didn't have any sense of something like this with this novel. Didn't feel any investment with any of the characters - including Iris. Know what's funny? The one character that I did have some sense of/ interest in was the character of the blind asssassin in the book within the book. And Missy Atwood just dumped him summarily! Am still muddling through clarifying my thoughts. Thought I'd download initial reactions and see if anyone else can help me make clearer meaning of this all or change my mind. Am looking forward to your input & reactions!

Meg

And I saw connections in EVERYthing! In fact, the reason I sensed early on that Iris wrote the book, as opposed to Laura, was the connections in the book to the things that enthralled and/or horrified each of them as little girls. I grew more and more strongly convinced Laura COULD NOT HAVE written The Blind Assassin!

We are not meant to read the whole book (that Iris wrote) as it was published. We are just given glimpses of it so as to relate it to the real life. Iris is, in her late eighties, giving us the history of her real life. THE BLIND ASSASSIN, supposedly written by her sister, was published as a work of fiction containing within it imaginary tales written by one of the principal characters.

I feel Atwood delivered big time. I was never in the compliant coma that Iris was for, what? Thirty years? My family never laid that on me. Iris did not HAVE a life; she just got through her days, trying to toe the line and be THE GOOD GIRL. She lacked insight, because she never allowed herself to develop it. She did not question her orders and duty.

Laura was not given responsibility or duty. She was to be taken care of and indulged, as much as possible. She was a wanderer, a dreamer, and missing a few nuts and bolts, the tightening up of which might have made her less vulnerable. Nevertheless, because she was not forced to see things as she was TOLD she must see them, she saw them as they really were BENEATH the surface picture. She knew Richard was EVIL. Iris did not really allow herself to experience anything beyond what people said and what they wore. She was, so far as awareness is concerned, still swimming in her mother's womb. Her eyes could see, her ears could hear; she never allowed these senses to meet and mingle with her other 4 senses and form opinions, intuitive or otherwise.

For Iris, things just were. For Laura, who let it ALL into the over-finely tuned factory of HER mind, things were TOO MUCH! But wow, didn't she point out a lot of inconsistencies in the things we do and tell ourselves, Just!

Laura sought and obtained peaceful oblivion. Iris woke up, and what a fine mind was there when she was finally born into this world. Her mental imageries were like a banquet for me!

Yes, I think our author told this whole story quite well, and said what she set out to say. There is a whole lot of real life here.

Also realized today another reason why this Margaret Atwood text was an unsatisfying one - in terms of story. Had the sensation (frequently) that I was reading a student's working draft - which had been proofread for surface errors, BUT - had not been edited or revised for content, sequence, character development &/or story effectiveness. Didn't feel like I was reading a finished draft ready for publication. There seemed to be a great deal of indulgence, sloppiness here - either Atwood's editors "allowing" her draft to be printed as is because of her reputation, or Atwood's own indulgence with Iris and also with herself in terms of her own failure to revise for a tighter or even more clearly/logically presented story. YES! I KNOW THAT ALL OF YOU DIE-HARD ATWOOD FANS ARE SHRIEKING, CURSING ME AND AIMING YOUR POISONED DARTS IN MY DIRECTION!!!! (That's okay. We each bring our own perspectives to what we read.)

Iris/Atwood just seemed to ramble on & on (in one voice or tale or another) - and then - in end of last quarter - to get tired and ram, rush info together very quickly to give epiloguic info on what happened. Sort of a fast & dirty tie up of some of the obvious loose ends, BUT NOT to provide author or character insight. Don't have the sense that Iris has grown, learned anything or even looked at anything from a different perspective. She just got even, and by doing so - lost even more. Iris just DOESN"T LEARN!!!

Had the sense that Atwood just got tired & wanted to finish this tale - NOT - that Iris was experiencing any sense of urgency at all (even though we knew that she would most likely die by the end of the book). There seemed to be a laziness to me here on the writer's part - to not finish the work needed for this book. (This isn't meant as an attack on the passionless character Iris, but rather an observation/opinion about the tools & skills of Atwood as a storyteller/writer in this particular work. This one just doesn't work for me as a reader; there's too much sloppiness, indulgence, pick-up-and-then-drop characters or story lines - that could have been condensed or edited out, no souls to the characters - they're cut-out doll characters who are discussed but never revealed as real, multidimensional humans. M.Atwood just leaves me cold. Don't see "genius" at work here in Blind Assassin - just see a lazy indulgence.

I'm somewhere in the middle of MaryPage and MegR. I'm glad I read the book; I much enjoyed the childhood scenes and the Language, the individual sentences and observations. I loved it when Iris got stuck in the snow, for example, and wrote about her rage:

Now I'm grounded. Also enraged at myself. Or not at myself--at this bad turn my body has done me. After having imposed itself on us like the egomaniac it is, clamouring about its own needs, foisting upon us its own sordid and perilous desires, the body's final trick is simply to absent itself. Just when you need it, just when you could use an arm or a leg, suddenly the body has other things to do. It falters, it buckles under you; it melts away as if made of snow, leaving nothing much. Two lumps of coat, an old hat, a grin made of pebbles. The bones dry sticks, easily broken.

There are so many passages like this. My underlining habit could not be checked. Time and again, something is so well described that I almost swoon.

And yet........

I am also a plot person. As E.M. Forster remarked, "the story, or dear, yes, we must have the story." And it is on the level of narrative that I feel let down. The book worked for me as long as Iris focused on the past, but I wanted more about her daughter and her struggles with Winifred. I wanted her to FIGHT.

This is why I suggest that what goes wrong for me may be the first person point of view. (Iris even wrote The Blind Assassin as many of you suspected long ago.) If there is only one voice, I want that voice to be alive, and as MaryPage pointed out, Iris more or less missed her life.

More later. Will wait for others to comment.

Maryal

Meg...I have to agree with you. I'm also one of those few who was not pleased with the book. Yes I enjoyed many of the quotes but I just don't seem to relate most to English authors. They go in too many directions. It was too fragmented. I hate books that have to be explained. Makes me feel like a literate dummy. Bring on the next book.......

Meg...I have to agree with you. I'm also one of those few who was not pleased with the book. Yes I enjoyed many of the quotes but I just don't seem to relate to some English authors. They go in too many directions. It was too fragmented. I hate books that have to be explained. Makes me feel like a literate dummy. Bring on the next book.......

Here I was feeling like a derelict 'cause I hadn't logged in here for a few days! Took advantage of two days of sunshine & no rain to mow, weed & plant. Spent today making 10 centerpieces for neighbors' 50th wedding anniversary bash tomorrow. Was expecting to have to catch up on reading posts. Looks like everyone else has been busy too! Was hoping that someone else would offer comments to disprove my takes on this book. I'm a rather eclectic reader & usually take most texts as they stand. Seldom have such a strong disappointment as I did with this one. Was hoping that someone else saw something else that I didn't see. Mary Page, I understand what you've said about Iris just passing thru her days. Guess what I wanted to see here was how she felt about what happened in her life. Wanted a sense of her "inner self" reactions. Didn't feel like Atwood delivered that. Will check in later to see if this "discussion" is still alive or if it's unofficially stopped. - Meg

MegR--We are still here. I think that my problem with this novel is the unfulfilled life lived by Iris. Had she lived at another time, had another family, one hardly knows what she might have done. But her life was so circumscribed that I got frustrated with it.

Not to say that Iris could have realistically DONE anything to escape her life, given her personality. Laura seems to have escaped her life by rebelling, by refusing the deny the insights she has, by coloring photos of people the colors that she thinks they "really" are. But she ends up killing herself, the ultimate escape.

Iris publishes her book, The Blind Assassin, a kind of memorial to her dead lover, Alex, but under her dead sister's name, thus escaping all publicity herself.

I am especially put off by the last about eighty pages of the book. I wanted to know more.

I didn't mind all the fractured syntax of the novel, the newspaper articles, the insertion of parts of "The Blind Assassin," but I couldn't figure out why I had to read the story about the lizard men, a pot boiler of the type Alex wrote regularly in order to support himself. I would rather have had a little more of "The Blind Assassin" although it obviously wasn't going much of anywhere either.

What I enjoyed most about the novel was all the descriptions of time and place, the details that reminded me of my early years, the wonderfully crafted sentences.

But there is something so repressed, so VICTORIAN (in the worst sense) about Iris that sometimes I wanted to scream at her. So, given my emotional response, I was involved in the novel after all.

Maryal

Iris had a rather full life, when all was said and done. She loved fiercely and fully. She grew rapidly in wisdom as she aged. Pity she did not get completely wise prior to Winnifred's being able to pry her daughter from her through threat of scandal. I expect she was still seeking love, we all do that.

But how many of us have become authors of internationally acclaimed novels? I think Iris PREFERRED her quiet anonymity. She enjoyed her small town days, and the respect she had earned through time. She enjoyed the thought that Myra might be her half-sister! She knew she had personally made a mark, though others did not know it.

But oh, how she yearned for that love. That unconditional love from her own. Infinitely sad that her granddaughter did not arrive BEFORE Iris died. Terribly satisfying for us (and the shade of Iris?) to know that the granddaughter DID finally read Iris's words and know all.

MaryPage--You make me think about the difference between the elderly woman Iris, who has certainly attained a degree of wisdom, and the young Iris who spent much time being manipulated or controlled.

And yes, she did know passionate love although it did not last. And Alex died. But all love stories end in death of one kind or another, don't they? As a matter of fact, Atwood has written a short story (I think it is Atwood) about a love story. She gives it many endings. I think the title is "Happy Ending."

Maryal

Here, for anyone who is interested, is a link to Margaret Atwood's Happy Endings. This is one of my favorite Atwood stories.

Do you really think that Iris found passionate love? Or was it merely passion? Love--no!

ALF---What an interesting question! I'm not sure I have enough information to make that call. She certainly found excitement and sexual fulfillment, but she knew very little about Alex. She read the Lizard Men story in order to get another piece of information about him. Several times she tells us that she really wanted to know more about him.

Alex has many names and prefers not to be known since all information about him could lead to his capture. He doesn't seem to trust anyone.

And then there's the time when Iris asks him if she is the "only one" and he tells her that she is "First among equals." Now that is an evasive answer and a putdown.

What do the rest of you think?

Maryal

When I spoke of Iris loving "fiercely and fully", I was not speaking only of the Alex thing.

She loved her parents to distraction, even while seeing their flaws. She loved her sister Laura, even while seeing her frailties and being unable to understand the twists of her thinking. She loved Reenie totally, as a child loves its mother. She loved her daughter and her granddaughter. She loved her family and honored its name by keeping quiet many family secrets. Finally, I think she loves Myra and appreciates her, and her husband as well.

Yes, Iris gave, throughout her life, much, much more than she got! This is the story of a giver.

Well, finally finished BA except for that last Lizard Men chapter with Will and Boyd. Do I really need to read it to understand the book?

And I've read and reread all your wonderful posts I missed the past two weeks. MaryPage, you called it right from the very beginning when you said Iris wrote BA.

I agree with those of you who who didn't like Alex's stories -- useless. And I agree with those who are charmed by the older Iris. She's quite perceptive. I wonder when she became so.

And Alf, I also don't think Iris had true love with Alex. I did not like Alex. Maybe because he was difficult to know. I felt he was using Iris; he also gave her a rough time when discussing her life with Richard. What did he expect. He came across as demanding -- not wanting her to go to Europe, suggesting that she leave him, get a job.Perhaps neither Iris or Alex were realistic about their relationship.

But what really bothers me about Alex, is that I think he was also bedding Laura. What do the rest of you think?

Pedln---I think Alex was sleeping with both of them, and I also think that Iris came to know this when she realized that the telegram about his death which came to her address was really sent to Laura. And Laura, once she realized what had happened to Alex went off the cliff.

So Richard (remember him--the loathesome husband?) was sleeping with both sisters and so was Alex. Oh my.

MaryPage---Yes, Iris loved fiercely, no doubt about that. Her mother, though, was distant--and then she was dead. Her father drank himself into oblivion. Too bad for someone with such a capacity to love to be surrounded by all these unlovable people.

Maryal

Dear Maryal, I do not agree with you!

What a disagreeable thought!

I just cannot. The telegram was never meant for Laura, and both girls knew it! Remember, IRIS was named as Alex's NEXT OF KIN! Laura had a crush on Alex, but did not know Iris had an affair with him until Iris told her. I do not believe Alex slept with Laura.

Poor Laura never had the experience of good sex. She just had the experience of Richard raping her. Iris got the better end of the deal. Likewise raped by Richard, in that he had no thought for her whatsoever, she did enjoy great sex with Alex. I think she felt affection for him, but was NOT in love with him. He was certainly not someone anyone of discernment would care to cultivate.

MaryPage--Will go back and reread that section. I may very well have been going too fast.

Back later.

I would, but I can't. Because I listened to tapes. But they were unabridged!

i could be wrong. i usually am the one who is wrong. color me ready to be proved wrong........ penitent page here ........

MaryPage, you are right. I was reading too fast. Or I forgot. Anyway, the telegram was addressed to Iris and she was named as Alex's next of kin. She told Laura this, and then Laura drove off the cliff.

The embarrassing part is that I had underlined this section:

"I got the telegram," I said. "They sent it to me. He listed me as next of kin." Even then I could have changed course; I could have said, There must have been a mistake, it must have been meant for you. But I didn't say that. Instead I said, "It was very indiscreet of him. He shouldn't have done that, considering Richard. But he didn't have any family, and we'd been lovers, you see--in secret, for quite a long time--and who else did he have?"

The mistake is mine. Next time I will read what I underline (and I'll still make mistakes probably). Thanks for catching it, MaryPage.

Maryal

I think that's what drove Laura off the cliff -- hearing that Iris and Alex were lovers. Laura was very much fixated on Alex, and most likely was intimate with him.

He was certainly not someone anyone of discernment would care to cultivate.

MaryPage, your statement may be correct, but Iris was not too discerning when she was with Alex. Had circumstances been different (he didn't need to dodge the law) Iris would have done more pursuing. Alex came across as not wanting anything permanent -- even tho he did ask her to go with him.

What general comments do you all have to make on this novel? I, for one, am really glad I read it because I appreciate the writing so much. I feel a little let down by the lack of character development. Except for Iris, I don't feel I really got to know any of the others. Winifred seems like a type to me as does Alex. I still don't know what to "make" of Laura.

I've enjoyed reading all your comments and have learned a lot myself about looking at things with different eyes.

On Friday I will drive with my daughter to Maine to open my sister's island house. My sister is ill and will be coming up a little later in the month. So----get in those summary comments, or anything else you want to say.

Maryal

Thanks to all for participating in this discussion of The Blind Assassin, whether you liked it or not. I very much appreciated your comments both yea and nay. (Those words rhyme. You'd never know it though by the spelling. Engfish is such an odd language.)

The next book for the Book Club is Ray Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451, I read it a long time ago but remember enjoying it. There is a handy link to that discussion up in the heading.

Tomorrow morning I am off to Maine. Adieu.

Maryal