HI SARAH, I will be here. I enjoyed you before as a discussion leader. So, I am looking forward to this discussion. I have never read Penelope Fitzgerald, but I have heard a lot about her. I have bought both books. "The Blue Flower" seems more involved to me, more difficult, but I bought the book anyway knowing you will help my understanding. Plus, I love BOOKER WINNERS.

HATS

I thought we'd tackle The Bookshop first, and then discuss the very different, and yet more lauded book, The Blue Flower.

If you're an AS Byatt fan, I've heard her say Penelope Fitzgerald is one of her favorite writers. She writes short, perfect books and never wastes a word. I like this statement she made on the CBC: "I do leave a lot out and trust the reader really to be able to understand it. [My books are] about twice the length when they're first finished, but I cut all of it out. It's just an insult to readers to explain everything."

Our own DL Ginny corresponded with Fitzgerald briefly before her death and, I hope, will join the discussion and add her insights.

First things first: get the books (they should be available at the libraries and in paperback), and let me know if you plan to join us when we begin the discussion on May 1. Also, if you'd like to talk about Fitzgerald generally now (but not about the books till May 1, please), jump on in.

Welcome!

Good morning Sarah. Count me in! You are a superb discussion leader and I delight in your analysis. I have already completed the Bookshop and enjoyed it. The only thing that I did not like was our protagonist reminded be of an Angela Lounsbery type and I couldn't shake that visual.

I have started the Blue Flower and agree with Hats. It has a much more convoluted plot with its complex characters.

Hooray HATS and ALF! So glad to have you here. Yes, The Blue Flower is the more complex (and later) book, so we'll discuss it second.

I ordered my books some time ago and have managed to keep from reading them. I'll be finished with both before we start, though. I really like the idea of 2 books in 4 weeks. Two weeks seems about right, to me, for one book (but I know I'm in the minority). Some day, I still want us to try a two-day discussion. Everyone will be finished and ready and the discussion will go on non-stop for two days. My prediction is that we'd get to 500-600 posts in 2 days and that the discussion would feel intense and immediate.

I've never read any of Fitzgerald, but after hearing Ginny's fascination with her and after reading some amazing reviews, I have the feeling that her books will feel like a breath of fresh air.

betty

So, Sarah, I broke my promise to "never buy another book again in life" but I did find and purchase the Blue Flower in a small independent bookstore today. I am unable to find the Bookshop in a small store or library so I probably will only join you for half the discussion- which is first?

Hi Yili - we'll read The Bookshop first. Welcome Betty as well! Looking forward to this.

SarahT -- I e-mailed a friend your synopsis of Blue Flower(above)because she has been to Germany several times, studied German, and has done extensive geneology on her German ancestors who came from Saxony. My mail and her response are below.

ME "Have you heard of this book? I came across it while browsing on SeniorNet. What caught my eye was the statement about the descriptions of Saxony."

MY FRIEND "I remember The Blue Flower from my German Literature class but don't recall much about it except that it was one of those Romantic fancies. However, the Blue Flower is often referred to in other literature as being a Romantic ideal. This new novel should be interesting to me since that Elderhostel on the Elbe went through so much of Saxony...everything from the German "Switzerland" to the lands as flat as the Bootheel."

I'm committed to Blind Assassin in May, since I got it for my birthday, but am going to try to find Blue Flower, as that sounds very intriguing also.

Great, pedln - look forward to having you, even if only for the discussion of one of the two books. I too want to read along with the Blind Assassin discussion!

I have the two books ready and waiting. I remember reading the Blue Flower when my lib first got it. Was a different and difficult and intriguing novel.

Just finished "Blind Assasin" so I'll probably try to read the discussion .

~Marj

As usual, I have probably bitten off more than I can chew. I am still reading the Blind Assassin and the Blue Flower and have completed The Bookshop. I want to join in on all three discussions.

This is tough. I own 4 of Fitzgerald's books, including these 2, but have not read them. I am busy listening to an audio of The Blind Assassin while walking. Decisions, decisions! Guess I'll put aside some other books and join you here as well!

MaryPage: Read the Bookshop first. It's not very complicated and moves right along at a quick pace. The Blue Flower is a tad more complex.

Well I read the Blue Flower and urge you all to read and join. It was one of those books that you want to underline and make margin notes. Does anyone recall the link Barbara St. Aubrey posted once where you could enter phrases in different languages for translation? something with alta vista i think.

hope that when i return "north" the bookshop is on reserve for me at the library, i am leaving a personal copy f the blue flower on my bookshelf "south" hoping others will read. can't wait for us to begin.

Sarah is having computer problems and will delay the beginning of this discussion for 5 days, commencing on May 6th.

I hope you can take advantage of this opportunity to get a copy of The Bookshop, as that's what Sarah is starting with, and join her here. I was rereading The Bookshop last night and find it simply stunning in its simplicity and depth and range, my copy is so underlined that it's almost unreadable.

I don't know of another writer equal to Fitzgerald and I am very sorry I will miss the greatest part of this discussion but I know those of you who take the plunge will not be sorry,

Just a reminder: The Bookshop will begin May 6th with the inestimable Sarah at the helm.

ginny

Yeah got my copy of the bookshop at the library- glad for the few days reprieve so i can start reading. Hope all is well incomputerworld soon

YiLi --- did you see I posted the translater site you asked about. See above.

Marj

I just came across this Random House site. It has a short review and some questions for thought re "The Bookshop", while we have the extra time until Sarah's cyber challenge is manageable!!!!

The Bookshop (/a)

Those are wonderful, Marge, what an extraordinary book this is and I would never have thought of any of those questions. I feel like a horse at the starting post lunging and plunging back and forth, but eagerly awaiting the starting gun.

I liked this statement from your source, especially and will put it likewise in the Welcome Center in hopes that we may attract even more people:

Among her abiding themes are the courage and determination of innocence in the face of sometimes monstrous adversity, the rewards of courageous eccentricity or creative effort, survival in terms of one's own sense of self, and the sometimes tiny sources of both grand achievement and terrible loss.

Well said and so true.

ginny

Whooooooooops! It is a Houghton Mifflin site above for "The Bookshop" link..

I saw that, too, after I remarked on one of the quotes, but that's OK, great minds run together, you and Sarah are definitely great minds.

How about this little gem while we're waiting, this one from Fitzgerald herself:

A good book is the precious life blood of a master-spirit, embalmed and treasured up on purpose to a life beyond life, and as such it must surely be a necessary commodity.

Here's to ALL the Master Spirits we encounter in the Books, thru the page and thru our associations here in our reading groups.

ginny

Purchased my books last night - reading the Bookshop - brings back memeories of the 50s especially how we thought paperbacks beneath us and an abomination to the world of print - I'm also remembering how the drugstore had a small library that we joined and paid 10 cents a day for each day we had the book out. Sure encouraged us to read quickly.

So far it almost reads like a mystery with no corpse - one of those delightful English cottage type mysteries that I so dearly love. But this is supposed to 1959 and they are talking about marshmen and a reedcutter - it could be 1859 as far as I am conserned - what is a marshman and a reed cutter - anyonw know?

Ginny that is a fabulous quote isn't it -

Haha, Barbara, about paperback books being beneath us.... I loved the line in the book that had hardback books looking down on paperbacks. Paperbacks have always been ok with me, except that they have no place in a beautiful bookcase of hardback books.

I have visited the fen country in the lowlands of Eastern England, and I can just SEE the countryside as she describes it. Especially the flatness and seeing things coming for a long time, and the water all around.

I would expect a reed cutter made a living cutting and selling reeds for making baskets, furniture, musical instruments, etc. I do not really know.

I would think a marshman made a living from hunting and fishing in the marshes, much as a woodsman is a person who hunts in the forests. Again, I am just surmising.

I don't know, Barb, and I am ashamed to admit I missed both those references entirely, good work, I like MaryPage's explanation, it's amazing what we pick UP when we read, and what we don't, isn't it, and you know Fitzgerald's works are almost a touchstone for each reader, this is going to be very interesting, our experience here.

Barbara, you have also touched on one puzzlement I had and could you explain in a bit more detail about this lending library stuff? I did not understand that. Do those of you who were in....oh gosh, was it The Magic Mountain which had the lending library?

What is that? I mean do they lend out the new books so that when you buy one it's used? Ickers. I don't understand how it works or how it makes any money at all, but we can see Christine struggling with the cards? I'm really lost in those sections.

Sarah is on earthlink and by the first of next week hopefully whatever problem that exists will be ironed out and she can rejoin us, how eagerly I await her return and her brilliant slant on this book.

Fitzgerald's style is quite different and already here I have learned she writes a LOT but removes most of it. I wish I could learn to copy that habit! hahahaah

But what's left is almost a poem, you find yourself looking very hard and puzzling over the bits left IN and wondering why THEY are there, or at least I do.

The thing about paperbacks essentially is that they don't last. I buy a lot of paperbacks but if the book is a keeper, I find I end up buying the hardback if available because the paperbacks simply fall apart, at least they do in my house, and it's not as much of a pleasure to revisit a torn worn paper falling out old paperback, to me, anyway?

But for reading in bed, nothing beats one, who wants to hold up a huge hardback, not as comfortable in any situation.

ginny

My experience was the drugstore had a book case about half the size of the shelving devoted to magaizenes in most grocery stores now - oh about 4 feet maybe 5 feet wide with about 6 shelves of books - 90% Novels - a great many historical romance and mysteries although I rmemeber taking out Rachel Carsen's book and I do not remember what year that was.

The owner ( then the drugstores still had individual owners and the pharmasist was often the owner) kept a file box of index cards with the names and information about what and when for each of those that belonged to the library - there were sometimes specials so that instead of paying a yearly fee you could join free - For every book you borrowed it cost either 5¢ a day if you had paid a yearly membership fee or the special with no membership fee cost 10¢ a day to read the book. If you kept the book more than 1 week it became a $1 a day. I'm assuming that Florence was setting up a similar plan.

At the time I used the Drug store lending system it was conviently located across from the grocery market. I had two pre-schooler ( my first two were exactly 9 months and 6 weeks apart) and money was tight. So the special was great since I had no big outlay. At this point in my life it was easy since my husband was working very late hours, we had one car and I had no baby sitter, we went grocery shopping every Friday night. The Drug store was opened till 10: at night and sometimes after he came home I could run up and exchange a book for another.

Although the public library was within walking distance, there was no place to leave the children asleep in carrages and the library did not want toddles in the wonderful old two story mansion till the children were ages 4 and 5. Atually 5 but my five year old was asked to keep his eye on my daughter. Kathamarie actually was more responsible than my five year old son. At five they were allowed access to the children's section and I could quickly, with them in tow, choose a book in the adult section. Later, after nearly a year of going to the library, I could leave the children for awhile in the children's section while I browzed the adult section. Once we logistically could use the public library I seldom used the Drug Store Book Lending collection.

When the bookmoble was established (my children were ages 8 and 9 with my youngest age 3) it had a similar set up for the section of the year's best sellers. That all the other books were free but to borrow anything published that made the best seller list during the year cost anything from 10¢ a day to 25¢ a day. The main library may have had the same policy but I do not remember. At this time most of my reading was magazines for fluff and literature or books in history, art with a few biographies from the library. If y'all remember many of the best sellers were still run as a series in various womens magazines.

Come to think of it that was why I continued to use the Drug Store lending because when they did get in a best seller I could borrow it for only 10¢ where as the ones I wanted to borrow always seemed to cost 25$ on the book moble that stopped Thursday afternoons just as my children were getting off the school bus where I met them at the end of the street that I lived on. In those days pennies, nickles and dimes still bought something.

Psst, don't tell.

I am at work, and found that can get in from here. But I can't, obviously, conduct the discussion from work - I have to do that from my home computer.

However, when SeniorNet cut over to a new server, people with the ISP I use at home lost the ability to log in. Hence my inability to come in and commence the discussion! SN is working on fixing this, but I'm unsure whether it will happen by the 6th.

So sit tight - and don't give up on me yet!

Psst!! Well I wish you'd LOOOK who slunk in the back door, hookey hookey from work!! hahaahah

I have ONE week left, our Sarah, and boy when you get here I'm going to UNLOAD, so tell earthlink to speed the plow, we miss you, this is a federal offense, do they realize they are impeding important people here? hahahaha

Everybody should read this book and this author, at least once.

ginny

Barbara, thank you so much for that explanation, I had had no idea, and I can see now why people might use such a lending library and I can also see how it might bring business INTO a bookstore, once there, perhaps the reader might choose something to take home.

I wonder what percentage of the "take," the library actually was for Florence? She seemed to have a pretty good business there for a while.

Have you all ever considered opening a bookshop? I have.

I really appreciate that explanation and now that you do bring up the subject, I also remember the thing about children. I think Libraries have changed quite a bit but...I had no idea the BookMobile charged either, do they still?

And of course also in the "olden days" and I know the very types of stores you are talking about, people enjoyed congregating in the drugstore/ pharmacy/ lunch counter/ candy shop, I remember that too.

Thank you so much!

ginny

I do think it's the right thing to wait for Sarah (hurry UP, SeniorNet), but Ginny's departure for Italy, etc., in a week, would be like me missing a discussion of Virginia Woolf or Elizabeth Cady Stanton.

I was wondering...if the readers really enjoy these two books, why couldn't we think about having an ongoing Fitzgerald study/discussion/folder? Would you lead that, Ginny? Or maybe you like Fitzgerald enough that you'd rather be a participant each time with Sarah leading? (Or maybe that's just how I think.) Wonder if Sarah would want to co-lead a Fitzgerald study....taking turns leading, but collaborating? I don't know anyone's preferences, so I'm just throwing out ideas. We couldn't go wrong with either Sarah or Ginny. And there is plenty Fitzgerald material from which to choose.

I can already tell from being halfway through The Bookshop that I'm going to want to read more Fitzgerald, even after The Blue Flower, therefore, my thoughts above.

betty

Sarah, don't clobber me. I know I'm forever offering your name as co-leader of something. (Maybe I could be your agent?)

Ginny, yes, I've thought of opening a bookshop, too. In movies, I practically swoon when a scene of a great old, cozy bookshop is shown. Just think, owning and running a bookshop....everyone who came in the door, every customer, would be people who loved books.

I think as long as the Book Store dreams stay a fantasy you will be happy.

I've looked into it, only my dream was a needlework shop - back in the late seventies I worked for nearly a year in a shop just to see what ownership would be like - y'all know the tale of the Cobbler whose children are shoeless - well that is when I learned - you never make a profit doing the thing you love unless others, potential buyers, love what you do well enough that you can market to their emotional dreams. That sounds so easy till you realize how differently we all dream and what we are all looking to get out of what we purchase.

IT is not enough to love the merchandise, or the store ambience or the type of client you hope to attract - all the wonderful needlework that I thought I could do during down-time ended up me making-up some manufacturers or local artists canvas or linen so folks, shoppers without imagination, could see a finished example. You were so busy stocking and promoting the quick and easy products because that is what made the money that was needed to pay the rent, light bills, salaries and the paper work for Sales Tax, employees Soc. Sec. and the IRS was unbelievable. I was only an employee that also taught the classes - I was so busy creating simple class instructive designes that I did less of the needlework I loved.

No one was interested in the history of clothe, creating their own design nor learning the various stitches. No one was interested in the history of trade along the ancient trade routes and the people of exotic tribes, or where the colors originated and what inventions made the progress of textile happen. No one was interested in the break through when women could finally enter the profession or the exploitation of woman, children and dogs to the lust for fine laces and embroideries. So few were interested in the more difficult but amazing stitches nor the creations of pulled work or gold work. The needlework books that actually sold were alway those filled with another writer/artists patterns not those that offered knowledge in design, color, museum collections, etc.

Then I learned of the investment of materials in order to have a store with enough choice that possibly the store's reputation would attract the serious needlewomen. The average 'kit and painted canves' shop required, then in 1977, $90,000 with the expectation of an earned profit that you could put in your own bank account of about $15,000 a year. A fully outfitted needlework shop that folks knew the serious artist could find their material, one that carried silk thread, a supply of gold to couch and linens that were worthy of the hours of embroidery and lace making bobbins, the investment was over $150,000 with not much more in profit since you spent more time with those I called needlework artists.

So as Florance didn't even get to read and critique Lolita so it is with anyone in business. Business is a profession that has different requirement than the knowledge and handling of the stocked merchandise. Business, in order to make a profit, is about promoting on a large scale other peoples work that appeals to the average buyer willing to let loose of their money in order to satisfy what they imagine the item will bring them, regardless that you know and love a certain author or fine needlework technique. It is appealing to those buyers that say they only read to enjoy the story because, let's face it, there are fewer readers that read to be affected by a story.

Of course in todays world this is all a mute point since the big shops that will attract a coffee shop knowing they, the coffee shop, will make a profit are the ones that get the business. There are a few small shops in small towns but even there the owner either owns the property or they are drawing money from some another source.

The investment is huge and the turn around on sales must be there if the shop is going to have a working relationship with the publisher's reps so the shop can stock current books. I notice here in Austin where the competition is the B&N and Borders and Half-Price the few small shops specialize in a certain genre where being current is not an issue.

All this was my experience as I walked the road toward making the choise to do what I now do. I loved my home and to this day, I sincerely believe that anyone who wants a home should have one - in addition, and after being in the business awhile, I am convinced the arrangement of rooms in a home has a huge affect in the successful relationships of those living in the home, and than finally, when people want to sell they should have the opportunity to get the most for, not only their investment of moeny over the years but, the investment of the time and love they put into their home.

Also I could do it without my having to sink $90,000 into inventory. Yes, I have a lot of business expence but, that is balanced by the most important aspect of this work - I get to actually do what I love and with people that most often I like and respect, rather than promote the popular thing, regardless I admire it or not, just in order to make that required profit in order to stay in business. I guess I sound a bit like Florence's bank manager or at least like Florence when she had her business hat on.

I, too, used to think I would possibly open a book store when I retired, if not sooner.

Barbara has put the case very well. After years of bookkeeping and accounting, I knew better. Also, my son chose to go into books; he inherited my love of them. He loved the business, and managed one of the largest stores around, then wrestled with plans to open his own internet book store for about a year and a half. Too long, alas! That plan ended with Amazon.com popping up on the scene. Chip never had gotten to the funding part of the plan; he was too busy planning how it would all work! He left books for the tech world some years ago. We both feel a lot of nostalgia for those heady days, however. I have framed photos of him with Hilary Clinton and Tipper Gore, separately, taken when they came in for book signings.

I find Fitzgerald a skilled and gifted writer. Reading her for the joy of excellent writing is rather like eating chocolate for comfort: both deliver. On the other hand, I find her books sad. Downers. Now in my old age, I feel I have read, in my lifetime, all of the classics and Great Books required, and a great many more. I have anguished ceaselessly over the state of mankind. Now I want the comforts of my chaise and little pillows, my cups of tea, my reading materials that lift my spirits. No more downers! I also own The Beginning of Spring , OFFSHORE , and The Gate of Angels , and I may get to reading them one day. If not, they will go in pristine condition, along with hundreds of other books, to my namesake granddaughter, as my will directs.

MaryPage, my only requirement of a book is that it grabs me, engages my interest, and even that doesn't have to happen immediately if I'm convinced it's going to happen any minute. Since that has happened many times, I'm willing to keep believing it might for the book in front of me.

I was thinking.....what I "get" from (well written) sad books sometimes (beyond validation or finding out yet again that I'm not alone) are new words. I'm interested in how we speak of personal difficulties and in words that enlarge how I think of difficulties. I so admire people who can express the almost inexpressible....how life feels, good and bad.....which is what life contains, good and bad.

One such book is a thick academic book about a study that surveyed several previous studies. Between sections of graphs and tables of numbers and more numbers, with explanations and summaries, are some incredible stories from real people. Long quotes taken directly from taped conversations revealed everything from feeling crushed by life to revelling in life, problems and all. This is difficult to explain, but these words are fascinating to me as a person, not the solutions or beliefs, per se, but the words of expression.

Oddly, I rarely buy books that I think are going to be sad. I don't avoid them, as such, but other things catch my interest. Just today I heard about and read some about Washington by Meg Greenfield, editor at the Washington Post, who died recently. I heard on C-span that the book is quite funny, that she saw Washington as high school, with all the self obsession and youthful politics one would find in high school.

Also, a new book about the life of William Randolf Hearst's architect, a woman, Julia Morgan, who worked continually for 28 years building San Simeon on the California coast (170 rooms, 2 pools, 3 cottages, one underground pool). Actually, the book (name?? didn't write it down) celebrates the collaboration of Morgan and Hearst over so many years. It looked wonderful....architect plans and photos throughout.

Oh Mary Page, I also was so sad when I reread Bookshop! Even tho there was humor here and there. It is so well written - sentences are crafted so finely; I entered right into the tale. I'm not sorry I read it - a fantastic book.

Her descriptions are great. Leave you room to add in your imagination.

I know F. says she wrote and then cut back ; as I read, therefore, I think about what excess would have been around some of the paragraphs.

~Marj

You are so right ,betty gregory. "Finding we are not alone" "Validating". Surely, that is most important in a world full of instant gratifications; or the importance thereof.

I would have like to known Florence. I don't remember she had a close friend mentioned or in the story. And she had lived in the village a long time.

Hearst Castle by Victoria Kastner, October, 2000. Scads of photographs, hopefully from the building process.

Also, the book Washington is listed as an autobiography by Meg Greenfield, which she wrote secretly during the last two years of her life.

I'm hallucinating. I could have sworn there was a post from Mal that I needed to backtrack to read after editing something....but it's not there. Mal??

Do we start???? Are you in Sarah? Today is the 6th but no one is here except Betty wondering if she is hellucinating about a lost post - hope you find it Betty.

I bet Betty thought she was on another site.

Barbara - There are posts by betty, marypage and me regarding the book.

Sarah's not here yet and we really don't want to start till she is, she's on earthlink, whose software is incompatable with our new server and they have promised to fix all by the 6th....today...so stay tuned, she's anxious to get in here.

But I must say that I agree with Betty and Marj about the validating, there are so many many many many many places in this book where a TRUTH shouts out at you? Where a truth about who we are as people screams, I've been quoting it all over everywhere.

Listen, I don't want to discuss without Sarah, and I don't want you all to answer me, but you might ask yourself IS this sad?

Now you all have spoken of it being sad and so I can tell you we're going to have a roaring discussion over this and the little theories the author planted all thru it.

I"m not sure Sarah is as total a fan as I am but I very much liked Betty's innovative idea of doing an author study (and by the way, the Meg Greenfield book is excerpted in...I think it's Newsweek and you can't put it down it is FABULOUS, just fabulous and San Simeon, if you have not been there is remarkable, in my opinion only for its indoor pool, the likes of which I have never seen before or since in my life).

Thank you Mary Page, and Barbara, for that excellent description of the reality of the business world vs the world of the dreamer. I find that I myself am hopelessly in the latter, but it's OK, some of us are called and some chosen, I guess, and I'm beginning to be comfortable as I am, who I am, that's a new grace I'm learning here among all of you as we read together and I'm very grateful for it, and our book discussions.

ginny

Shoot, Ginny, you don't miss a THING! I was scrolling down to finish the posts so I could tell Betty to taste Meg's book in Newsweek.

I did not always agree with her, but did more often than not. More important, I have total respect for her. She is Really telling it like it is!

Ginny, would you write out the "little theories," truths, etc., in case you leave before saying all you wanted? Do it by subject or chapter, I don't know. Leave it with Sarah, I guess. Wait a minute...are you going to be connected online while gone? Laptop or whatever? (My next thought was....that would take away from a vacation being a vacation, so nevermind.)

I love this!  I return from my hiatus with my "honey girls" and we have Ginny leading the plow, Sarah's computer (at home) in time out, Betty opening a book browse shop for all of us, and everyone anxiously awaiting Ms. Fitzgerald grand tale.  Does anyone other than I picture her as an angela Lounsbery type?  she has the perfect English attitude doesn't she?

I am so happy that we need to hold up on this one for a wee bit.  It'll give me a chance to review  the Bros K and The Blind Assassin.

Ginny- when do you leave for Italy?

MarjV sorry I did not thank you sooner, we've had an unusual few days here. I followed the link and plugged in a few phrases that I could remember from the Blue Flower, the translations greatly added to the read.

Barbara you have very succinctly stated why I have woken up from the dream of opening my own health and wellness center. I realized that in order for me to meet expenses, I would have to become what I objected to (and why I wanted to open the center in the first place). If I were true to my craft I would empower customers to take action and control their own health and wellness after perhaps one or at most two consultations and perhaps the sale of a unique item or two. If I were to pay rent, expenses, etc. I would have to "milk" the customer, keep bringing him/her back, sell gadgets, supplements, recipes, workshops, etc. all of which should be free.

I too recall a book rental in our local pharmacy, but since I was allowed to take out books from the adult section when in 6th grade, I used the library. I do vaguely recall that the books in the drugstore were more "modern" than the books in the library the time. and perhaps a bit more risque. though part of a large municipal library system, in those days, I believe the books on the shelves were selected by the branch librarian- well our librarian was a bit conservative. But over the years she did amass an amazing ship collection that is well respected and rather well known to this day.

I'm leaving Tuesday, Andrea, and hopefully hopefully Sarah can get in now, we will await with bated breath and see what happens and yes, Betty just try to STOP me with the truths. ahahahhaha

We're in a holding pattern, which if you fly at all, you are totally familiar with. At least you don't have to go thru Customs afterwards!!

hahaha

Hope you had a great time, Andrea!

ginny

So interesting from you that have had small store experiences or a dream like Y. Thanks for sharing. I, too, have always thought it would be so neat to have one of those bookshops, traditional, with the neat wood, chairs, book smells, a galaxy of thoughts floating around all day. We had one like that in our neighborhood. It only stayed open a couple years. Also, for many years, in that same spot was a used book store . That owner eventually went cyber I heard.

Enjoy , Ginny! And Sarah is still among the cyber challenged. ~Marj

My idea for a bookstore had several components. In all the larger cities I lived in, plus the smaller Berkeley, I gravitated to the older, original sections of town, those with massive homes usually in some stage of renovation. As are the neighborhoods.

My idea, loosely constructed, was for 5 or 6 women to locate and buy a white elephant ("the Morgan place that's too big to sell") in a prime location for a bookstore. (New wiring and plumbing already accomplished before purchase.) Zoning would be a consideration. The entire first floor would be the bookstore and the 2nd and 3rd floors would be the residence. Depending on the makeup of the group of women, 3 of the 5 or 6 would continue in their law or medicine careers, maybe 1 or 2 are retired and 1 or 2 manage the bookstore.

But the bookstore venture would be the primary reason to live at the same place and the commitment to the bookstore would be shared by all. A business loan would meet the bookstore requirements for the first year or two. The still employed women would carry a larger share of the residence maintenance which would be reflected in percentage of ownership. They would also be committed to acting as backup for the inevitable lows between the highs of the bookstore business. A small area of the first floor or 2nd floor would serve as a private gathering place for book groups and readings. An attorney would construct all the agreements.

A well planned women's meeting place and bookstore serves a community's needs in many ways....the various skills of the 5 or 6 women could meet some of those needs....leading book groups, soliciting private donations and grants, designing a lecture series, speaking at the high school on career day, offering a writing workshop by a local author, maybe doing a teenage girls' book discussion group on Saturday mornings. Maybe a small yoga group on the back deck on Tuesday and Thursday mornings.

My overall view is that we would NOT be committed financially up to our teeth, but would have breathing room, even if that meant doing the project in increments....moving in first, settling into the residence and routines of sharing space...even though there would be AMPLE living space...large bedrooms, many baths, sitting rooms, large dining room, breakfast room, kitchen, all on the 2nd and 3rd floors. The structure would need no work (great fantasy, huh, how did the kitchen and dining get to the 2nd floor?), but surface decoration could be part of the "claiming it" as our own. The bookstore could begin slowly, fitting it to who we are.

There would probably be an already renovated garage/guest house in the back, which could be rented to college students who would be required to work X number of hours in the bookshop on the weekends.

Garden in the back, huge shade trees, deck with large pots of flowers year round.

A woman's bookstore in Portland, OR., whose opening I attended, was named "In Other Words."

Coming up with a name would be the greatest fun in the world. Designing a logo, the same. Seeing the name and logo on a small wooden sign swinging from the overhang of the front porch would be half the reason to do this.

betty

Let's do it, Betty! I really go for that!

As for the name, keep it simple. BOOKS!

Wow great - now add a health food bar or coffe sandwich shop to draw the business lunch crowd and it sounds like a winner. I notice in the Altanta airport the one place that serves sandwiches, salads and deserts and coffee etc. is in the middle of a rather extensive book shop with include a large international magazine counter, and it seems to be ringing up books all the time as compared to Waterstons the branch of the famed London Waterstons which is why I love flying through the Atlanta airport.

I don't want to mess with food. There is the special license, health dept. regulations, vermin, worry about poisoning people, etc.

Maybe just a tea room, where we made our own coffee and tea and had little sandwiches and pastries delivered from a catering firm each morning. We could take the left overs upstairs and devour them or take turns taking them to a shelter. We might even sell out each day and have to put up a SORRY! All out of food! sign. We could serve only stuff which does not turn into ptomaine or any other type of poisoning. Cucumber, tomatoe, avacado, cheese; that sort of thing. No egg, fish, fowl or meat.

Betty there is a bookstore like you described in Cambridge Ma. What was that movie about the bookstore was it a Meg Ryan thing, and they were being bought out or pushed out by the big chain- (the romantic interest)???

I agree, sorry Barbara, no food-- books, books, books.

I agree, no food, or only the limited amount described. Special teas, coffees, real teacups and saucers, just for the small tea area or at each chair by a window or on the back deck or front porch. A small sink by the tea, a sign would read, "Wash sticky fingers here."

Nothing wrong with finding someone who is ready to open a tea and sandwich shop next door to look for joint properties. That's a stretch, but not impossible. I agree with Barbara that these two businesses do well together, but my picture of a bookshop doesn't include the bustle and noise of a true eatery, nor the headaches listed by MaryPage.

YiLi, that movie is You've Got Mail. There is another movie from about 10-12 years ago about an old bookshop in New York city that opens with a celebration of finding funding to stay in business. Crossing Delancy?, or something like that, with Amy Irving. It must have been filmed at a real NY bookstore, or some genius in set design fooled me. Very compact. Narrow front to back. Expanded upward to 2nd floor.

I'd be more inclined to add (in place of food) a Thursday night 7-9 class on "Planning a Year of Reading," or "Organizing a Book Group," or "Living Closer to the Earth." $20 at the door?

I have a rolled up print that I've been carting around with me for years. It was a gift, but only because I'd gasped that I had to have it when I saw it. It's by the artist KiKi and is a wildly-colored woman sitting in front of a wildly colored book-filled bookcase. Her lap is full of books and so is the small table beside her and so is the floor. A small cat, almost lost in the books, is sitting looking up at the woman. I kept saying that when I got old enough for my living room to look like a primary-colors college dorm room again, then I would hang it. Later, I walked into the University bookstore at UC Berkeley and there it was on the wall. That's when I thought, when I get old enough to live IN a bookstore, that's when I'll hang it.

We'll have authors come to sign their books. We will NOT insist that people be rushed through the line.

We will know all of our regular customers and their likes and dislikes. We can call them when something comes in that we know they will like, if they ask for this service which we will offer.

Oh, I love that idea...calling someone and saying, we just found out that Joyce Carol Oates' new novel will be published August 1st, and can we reserve one for her, as we did last time?

Something about books all around me makes me want to write with an old fashioned fountain pen. I can never do without a computer again, but there are some things that have become more dear, simply because their use is now about pleasure, not efficiency.

I grinned at Meg Ryan hauling around that one pot of yellow flowers all over her bookshop, in You've Got Mail. I'll be in charge of the pot of yellow flowers.

We'll have to get Maryal into our bookstore. She has a whole collection of old fashioned fountain pens.

One small hitch...why would someone buy from us when they could find the same book for less on the internet or down the street at Football Stadium Books, Inc.?

Because we're adorable. Because we get written up in the local papers for the human interest perspective. Because we KNOW our customers and make them feel important. If not that, we appeal to their social consciences and make them feel they are keeping us from eating dog food. Or starving, even!

Well what ever the reason I do not think it is price - when I stop in B&N is always more crowded than Boarder. The stores are located across the highway from each other and than just down the road is Half Price. They sell the cheapest and are the least crowded. Borders has live music on Friday night and usually a group or instrumentalist from the Symphony many a Wednesday evening and still B&N enjoys bigger crowds.

On the Net I understand Amazon has the most sales but behind them, quite a distance in fact, is B&N with those book stores that sell the cheapest trailing way behind. I do not even see Borders (which I love, the store is so much cozier then the big factory like B&N) on the list.

And so I would want to know what does B&N do that brings them so many more shoppers. Both Borders and B&N have coffee shops that sell various coffees, water, tea etc as well as sandwiches and cakes - both have limited in-house book clubs, both have tables and chairs all over, although, I notice B&N's tables are regular dinette size and are filled with students studying or meeting their tudor over a cup of coffee. The books cost about the same in both stores.

B&N has a large CD dept semi- attached where Borders also includes Videos and their Video/CD section is in the store. Now B&N would have to stock more books I would think since the store is a monster in size but than when I try to compare the size of the stacks of Novels and Lit. they are about the same in both stores. B&N does have about 3 stacks of sale books as compared to Borders with two tables and a long unstacked row. But then Borders carries more titles dealing with computers. It must be something else other than price and merchandise that is bringing them in the doors at B&N.

In fact I find the personal at Boarders much more helpful and aware of authors and books and are willing to get on their computer and see if their other location has a book that location is out of. Much of the help at B&N are wiz bangs that are so busy visiting with their fellow employees that they never suggest they would see if another store had what you are looking for and most of them no little about literature or authors. I met only one employee, in all the years they have been at that location, that actually walked me to help look for a title and as we chatted had a love and knowledge of literature. And so the more successful store is not successful because of their personal being interested in each shopper either. Now I must say I do get post card advertisments in the mail from B&N and they do have that 10% off club that even I will go to B&N to benefit from the reduction.

Come to think of it the other bookstore in town that is every bit as busy as B&N is Book People who have a giant 5 story location downtown with limited parking. They are always packed to the rafters with a of lot young moms and students who many of them look like todays version of 1968. The also carry the biggest seclection of books dealing with recovery and eastern meditation, religion and philosophy.

Betty "why would someone buy from us?"

One answer -- those folks like my Seattle daughter who says, "I feel a real obligation to support the independent bookstore." So, every time I am in Seattle, a visit to the Elliot Bay Bookstore is always a must, as is another visit to University Bookstore. (Though I'd be a lot happier with the new owner of Elliot Bay if he hadn't closed up my favorite Seattle coffee shop -- the Honey Bear.)

Regarding movies with bookshops -- Is there anything more delightful than 84 Charring Cross Road? Is seems to me I saw something about Helen Hanff very recently, but don't remember what it was.

We could petition the town we wind up in to change the name of the street to Charing Cross Road and make our house # 84.

We could, or half of us could, assume British accents.

We'll have a story reading hour for children between one and five years old. Their mothers can sip tea and have a respite. This once a week on school mornings.

We'll have an hour for five to eight year olds on Saturdays. The book ages, that is. Anyone at all will be allowed to listen in.

Barbara, about B&N success....maybe it's name recognition. Bounty paper towels instead of generic. Or habit. The reasons almost all my business has been with Amazon.com is because (1) I've had great service, I mean great, and (2) it's a habit.

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Here's a crucial question....which city? Would we look for size of city, type of city (university town) or knowledge of city (not necessarily having lived there, just knowledge).

YiLi, tell us more about the shop in Cambridge.

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One of my all-time favorite women's bookstores is Bookwoman, here in Austin. They have changed locations and I have not been into the new store. The old Bookwoman was great. It was downtown on 6th street where almost all historic buildings had been or were being restored. It was cozy, had a quirky shaped main room, had too many books for the space, sold artisan earrings and serious art, had a messy but loaded bulletin board....and, here's what kept me there longer than I ever had time for....had the most wonderful selection of books by and about women and about health. No filler. No best sellers in sight. I happened across a newly translated French academic book that completely altered a serious project I was working on and ultimately became the cornerstone of my dissertation. A few of my best moments in that shop had nothing to do with books, though. More times than I would have guessed, I would look up to see men shopping with significant others, or (because I always listened) a man by himself coming in for a gift. Political discussions at the checkout line were the norm and I particularly loved hearing informed men support "women's" causes (should be human causes) with as much fire and investment as women. It was a hopeful place.

Oh, yes, yes, yes, 84 Charing Cross Rd. Or, that could be the name of the shop.

And, yes, the children's stories!!

Barnes and Noble- name brand. When I was a child, even though money was tight, I always remember my mother would only purchase GreenGiant Peas. I think it became a mark of gentility for her, no matter what was going on, she knew she could still serve Green Giant Peas.

In some cities- not sure about Austin- B&N has become a rather acceptable singles scene. In New York City there are many branches but specific ones are peopled by the singles- an alternative to the singles bars. If I had to shop in a large store, I too would prefer Border's, at least the store in White Plains, NY. I agree the staff is knowledgeable and there is a library like feel to the place. But I must also remark that no matter how much I prefer the independent, there is also a big difference in stores, not to mention negatives on the net, perhaps at 40mi apart, but the point they are the only two bookstores, one very attractive, well stocked store, for all its cozy bookshop does not have ambience. I have never seen people sitting and perusing, any activities are designed for sales, sales, sales. The other store, less ambitious as a couch, a few easy chairs, and a small stream of regulars who share thoughts on books and more. This bookshop is almost like a substitute barbershop.

think this is the bookstore link- bookstore

oh you BookWomen~ such splendid-fun reading all your posts to catch up since I was last here.

yes..... story hours for children; children's reading club

Marypage > "We could petition the town we wind up in to change the name of the street to Charing Cross Road and make our house # 84. We could, or half of us could, assume British accents. "

GREAT IDEAS!!!!!

~MARJ

Well, there is no point in having pokey little fantasies. I say go all out.

Betty Gregory had the original fantasy, and has allowed us to jump into it with her. Viva Betty! Her reward is veto power over our ideas and notions.

I'm hoping the house will be a huge Victorian, with a verandah on 2 sides, a porte-cochere on one side, and a screened in porch on the back.

Thanks so much for the link to the women's bookshop in Cambridge, YiLi. I got stuck there seeing what great books I'd missed. And, yes, so interesting about the 9 women who own it...some more involved with the day to day operations than others.

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Here are after-thoughts, musings (to the ideas so far)....

It wouldn't have to be just a women's shop. I think.

It would have to be owned by women, for sure, but dedicated men might figure into places we hadn't first anticipated....what if one of the potential owners happened to be married to a great liberal and he wanted to be involved....I think that would be great.

It would be easy enough to contact most existing women's bookshops and ask pointed questions about what they did right and what mistakes they had identified. I wonder what percentage needs some form of outside grants to stay alive.

Here's a weird thing. That victorian house you describe, MaryPage, sounds perfect, perfect, porches and all.....however, I've learned how to live in a closet in order to get to do what I want to do, which is what I did in Berkeley. If we found the right place for the first floor bookshop, I could make do with very little living space. Do you know that gene that first comes alive in childhood when you begin to like making tents and staying all day and night....all 4'x5' of it. That gene is still alive in me.

Yes the fantasy goes on - there must be plenty of parking space and rather than the typical music wouldn't it be nice to have the sounds of wind in the trees alternated with the sounds of water gurgling down a steam and the sound of waves and another of crickets and song birds with a tiny waterfall fountain on a pedistle and window seats. Seems like having a few women to share the cost is right on Betty and the where - someplace where there are already readers but no womens center. I think there are statistics someplace of the number of readers or rather book buyers per capita for the various communities around the country.

My daughter is moving to the sweat mountain town about 45 minutes north of Greenville SC in a town called Saluda NC. There is this sweat sweat tiny tiny shop filled with garden books, note paper, gifts, seedlings outfront along with a small supply of racks and shovels etc. on the front porch, everything with a theme of gardens, plants and birds. She is a one women operation but the shop is cottage, maybe 15X15 jamed packed with no backroom. Saluda does get a busy summer crowd that come to cool off and the folks that live there are more educated than the typical mountain community. Betty maybe that is what you could think about doing - take off in your vehical and check out some towns in places like Colorado, California, Arizona for heaves sake even Taos or Santa Fe my need a women's center. I'd skip Oklahoma and Arkansas but hay what about Faulkner country in Louisiana or near Tulane. Frankly though from my experience most southern towns do not embrace women's centers unless it is the Junior League. Possibly east coast south but not Ky. Tenn. Alabama, Miss. nor most of Georgia.

Just been cleaning out old magazines that included a three year collection of Victoria - ahh drool - a place where is snows - where you do cuddle up with a blanky, a fire, a cup of tea and a book.

I would prefer to stay out of the Southern heat. A New England Winter is preferable to a Southeran Summer! Let's don't go any further South than Maryland; but I vote for Vermont or New Hampshire.

If we were in New Hampshire, we could have a ball every 4th year, what with the presidential candidates willing to stop in anywhere and everywhere! Do you think we could learn that twang?

Hmmmm, I'm glad Missouri wasn't in the cut. Actually, although I've never been there, I understand Fayetteville, Arkansas is where it's at -- lot's of activity, authors, etc -- home of writer Joan Hess and a few others. Then there's Eureka Springs and Mountain View, where you get a lot of tourists, probably could get lots of business.

As for Mississippi -- Faulkner country -- the city of Oxford is probably overloaded with bookstores, being also the home of John Grisham.

Let's not chop off the South yet. You'll want some customers to come in Jan, Feb. and March.

Without thinking too hard about it, I guess I see northwest or northeast for a good women's bookshop (that is, a good bookshop, of women). Santa Fe 30 years ago would have worked fine.

Speaking of lots of people inhabiting the same space, I wish you could hear all the daily details I'm getting on my son's venture into sharing a large house with other serious career types in their 20s. (Austin rents are almost as bad as San Francisco prices now.) His good friends, male and female, (Greg and he go way back)are a committed couple, both with careers, not ready for marriage....but she is pregnant, due in 4 months. The three decide to look for a 4th roommate and get a large house to share. The three now have the house, moved in 2 weeks ago (hurrah, my space is my own again) and have been interviewing potential roommates, being very particular...especially since the house will have a new baby in it.

Finally, as of last night, they think they've found a good roommate....turns out to be two women, life long friends, one still in law school and one already in her career....and one is PREGNANT!!! She is due two weeks after the other baby is due!!

All the settling in the 1st three have been doing has been geared, with some embarrassment, I think, to the new baby. As I listened to these young people talk with such relief about finding this other pregnant woman, my private view of it all is that now, without reserve, the whole house will pretty much revolve around strict schedules and needs of two new babies. The first couple is very, very excited about the arrival of their baby. Greg, my son, very newly divorced, has been glad that no children had to go through a divorce, but that's also one of his deepest sadnesses...that he's 30 and has no children yet. The newly discovered pregnant woman left an alcoholic husband to come stay with her life-long friend...who had JUST sold her house. So, all these young career types are extra child friendly, or have deep, prior friendships/commitments to each other. So interesting.

I can't imagine that it will go smoothly. I do predict, though, that it will be a rich learning situation for my son and others. Ironically, I don't let myself get into judgments about these young women having children alone (one will be going through a divorce and one will probably marry soon), but my son is struggling with it and I can tell from excerpts told to me, that so are one or two others. That's good, I think, the struggle.

At any rate, it's been a challenge explaining all this to my mother. It helps her, I think, when I say, "Only in Austin."

betty

Well, there you are! NorthEast or NorthWest! Good Oh!

Betty, my soul happily sings out that there are many, many situations such as you describe going on all over our nation! I think it is Wonderful the spirit of LIFE CAN CONTINUE and WE CAN MANAGE TO HANDLE OUR LIVES INDEPENDENTLY that young women possess these days! No more staying in abusive, dead end relationships! No more dependency! Children will be loved deeply without growing up afraid.

Life is good! Thanks for your tale.

I want to carry ALL of the British royal family gossip magazines. MAJESTY, etc. Country Life. All the stuff I can't seem to get my hands on here.

As this is my last day on SN until after June 17th and Sarah still can't get in, I do want to get in at least one....what would you call it, parting shot~

One of the amazing things to me about Fitzgerald's writing is that everybody seems to see something different and I really look forward upon my return to reading your archived comments and to see what all different things you got out of this slim book.

Rather than write a thesis, I'd just like to bring here some of the "truths," (maybe not so much truths, but insights, surely), I think she scattered about the book, which always catch me broadsided, here are a few for your attention and possible, when Sarah gets back, remarks:

Surely you have to succeed, if you give everything you have. (page 107)

…women on whom no one had ever made any demand… (page 56)

…but at least she had the good fortune to care deeply about something. (page 11).

The frame of mind, however, is everything. Given that, one can have a very satisfactory party all by oneself. (page 41)

The Everyman motto (new to me): A good book is the precious life-blood of a master spirit, embalmed and treasured up on purpose to a life beyond life. (page 39)

She had a kind heart, though that is not of much use when it comes to the matter of self-preservation. (page 7)

…with that precious sense of beginning again which she could not expect too often at her age. (page 34)

It is a peculiar thing to take a step forward in middle age, but having done it I don't intend to retreat. (page 10)

…but defeat is less unwelcome when you are tired. (page 120)

Not to succeed in one thing is to fail in all. (page 80)

…so she felt that character was a struggle between good and bad intentions. (page 63)

She did not know that morality is seldom a safe guide for human conduct. (page 100)

I believe that one of those statements is the theme of the book, and I can't wait to get back here and see what you all think,

See you in late June,

ginny

Bon Voyage, Our Ginny! Safe return!

Tell us all Ginny when you return - wishing you a wonderful experience.

Look folks my nerves cannot take this day by day not knowing if we do or not start this conversation - I'm for waiting on this till June 1 which gets Memorial Day weekend out from under my calander and hopefully Sarah will be in by then, as well, by June 1 we are only two and a half weeks away from Ginny returning.

Ginny's posts give a clue that there is so much that she would add to our having a full picture of possibilites from these books. So what do y'all think - I know this should be a Sarah discission but checking each day and chit chatting is wearing me - I would rather just know that the conversation will happen on such and such date. Now I understand if June 1 comes and goes and Sarah's connection is still in limbo but at this point I would rather, as I said, just not have this discussion's uncertainty to worry about.

what did I miss? Where's Ginny going? MaryPage just read that little piece under your name- a drinking town with a sailing problem....love it!

Barb --- I'm with you.

Let us have the discussion recheduled. Oh, please, powers that be!

~Marj

Dear Marj,

The 'powers that be' are working as we speak with getting Sarah's ISP changed and things are looking very positive now.

Sarah is missing you all and eager to start the discussion as soon as she is able. Do Not despair! Things are looking good! You will be alerted as soon as she gets the "go"...

What is an ISP and what happened to Sarah's? Do I have one of those? Do we all? Could we wind up losing touch as well?

Mary Page, for some reason, some people using Earthlink have been unable to get into SN ever since we moved to the new server a few weeks ago. Unfortunately, that number includes Sarah. There's got to be some setting that is not letting them in, wouldn't you think?

You are safe since you are in, Mary P...knock on some wood!

Hang on, they're looking for that little culprit today!

Thanks! Poor Sarah!

Something similar happened to me when I changed providers and I could not access my work email - what a problem that was- I still don't know how it worked, but when i wiped out my new software and just plain reloaded it- it worked!

So waiting for sarah....

Barbara's idea is still worth considering...to let Sarah know one way or the other (when she gets here) if we'd like to reschedule to June 1st. That would allow Ginny to be here for most of it and would allow, possibly, a few others to decide to join us.

ISP internet service provider. I just call it "my server."

Betty, we will not be rescheduling to June 1 but start either when Sarah gets in or Ginny gets back in mid-June. We will know tonight how the latest attempt has gone, but nothing is going to be rescheduled for June 1...except my husband's birthday party!

Cross your fingers that things go well this evening!

OK - didn't know the plan - I'll just keep checking to see if Sarah gets in -

Finally am back in - I'm sorry about the long delay! The ISP I have would not allow me to gain access to SeniorNet after SN cut over to a new server. After umpteen emails and a number of phone calls - the problem is finally fixed! Hooray! I've missed you all VERY much and am eager to get this discussion on track.

So, let's start at the very beginning!

The book starts beautifully - and puzzlingly - with an image of a "heron flying across the estuary and trying, while it was on the wing, to swallow an eel which it had caught. The eel, in turn, was struggling to escape from the gullet of the heron and appeared a quarter, a half, or occasionally three-quarters of the way out. The indecision expressed by both creatures was pitiable. They had taken on too much."

What does the foregoing story tell us about Florence Green, who in 1959 decides, after 8 years of widowhood, decides to open a bookshop - to "make it clear to herself, and possibly to others, that she existed in her own right"?

That she is indecisive?

That she is taking on more than she should - biting off more than she can chew, to use the heron/eel analogy directly?

Who is the heron and who is the eel in Florence's story?

What would possess this "small, wispy and wiry" woman, with a "kind heart" that is "not of much use when it comes to the matter of self-preservation," "not much talked about," to open a bookshop in a town with "no fish and chips. . . no launderette, no cinema except on alternate Saturday nights" to consider opening a bookshop?

What do you think of her decision - and what does the beginning of the book tell you about Florence's likelihood of success?

She worked as an assistant in another bookshop years before - Muller's, in Wigmore street. Her most important memory of that job is of the "stocktaking," and she was but a girl when she did this work.

By the same token, Florence is not entirely without savvy (harumph): "Florence had known ever since her first payday [that if over any given period of time the cash inflow cannot meet the cash outflow, it is safe to predict taht money difficulties are not far away], when, at the age of sixteen, she had become self-supporting."

Egad! What is this woman setting herself up for?

What are your initial thoughts about Florence's idea to open a bookshop?

Sarah is back!!! Really back! We'll move this baby right up to Current Discussions where we've been praying it would go!

WELCOME HOME, SARAH!

Glad you are back, Sarah!!

I cannot beleive - wow - heheh my faith lagged on this one starting up so soon - great Sarah so glad you worked it out - now I must run - in class today and just popped in during a delayed lunch break. I'm supposed to be reviewing for the test and here I am posting in Books.

My initial thoughts -

Bookshop! What a great idea. Here is an older woman, stepping out, taking charge of an emptiness in her life. And I thought - well, in a village or small town area such as this there would not be any major hassles. Little was I to know.

Any person beginning a new venture has vacilllating feelings. I thought that was a truth. Am I doing the right thing? Is this too big a step?

~Marj

I am new to this website and have been reading your messages about the book and upcoming discussion with great interest. I bought the book and have started it but I'm not sure I can get through asI too have Earthlink like your Sarah. I hope this works.

Pat so glad you found us - Welcome - so far earthlink is being good to you - I sure hope it continues to be good and we see many more posts from you as you read this story.

Oh Sarah's in, hooray! I had to reread the 1st couple of chapters to consider the image of a "heron flying across the estuary and
trying, while it was on the wing, to swallow an eel which it had caught.
The heron sticks its long neck out and wades right in, doesn't he?  Would that be our protogonist, Florence at an inlet of her own life ?  OR is she the eel, the snakelike fish struggling to escape?  Perhaps she recalls this scene because she is pondering her own indicision that was expressed by "both creatures." I find her to be "gutsy" and spirited.

Florence, kind hearted, insignificant from either view,  was not much talked about in Hardborough , we learn.  It was necessary for her to explain her decision three times to secure the bank loan .  It doesn't sound as if Florence was too politic or business-savy, does it?

Questioning her managerial skills, Mr Keble asks her what her objective really is and if she's aware of the changes that the 1960s will produce.  Is it no wonder she is indecisive?

The whole landscape seems bleak to me if this represents her time in life - a landscape that is flat and goes on and on without any physical landmarks breaking the flatness - I get the impression and wonder if it can be determined where does the sky and land actually meet - as if Florence is in a wide open uncharted space in her life with no landmarks - winds and storms leaving their history that break up man made walls, bridges, shelters, as if Florence is subject to life's storms breaking down her walls, bridges to others and her shelter.

A town where the historical sites are not maintained just as the older citizens are not maintained - where the people are rather inhospitable, filled with political machinations and only a handful are kind, accepting, friendly - useful children with an adult like capacity to works and think. It is like everyone must take care of themselves from an early age in this town and the people are like the weather - stormy and distructive between bouts of sunshine when everyone is busy finding, securing and eating their lunch.

Hardborough, the name of the town seems to be descriptive of the lifestyle of the people and of their characters. The people are not experiencing prosperity, "The herring catch had twindled," and most of the people lived on a fixed income. Then, there is the loneliness. It seems most of the people experience loneliness for one reason or another.

The weather is not pleasing, cold and windy and damp. Does it make sense that weather can make and shape our way of thinking? Of course. Weather can be blamed for arthritis. Weather can be blamed for unemployment. So, I suppose, the "cold and clear East Anglian air" can not be ignored as I look at this town and the townspeople.

Sarah posts "...who in 1959 decides, after 8 years of widowhood, decides to open a bookshop - to "make it clear to herself, and possibly to others, that she existed in her own right"?"

I'm intrigued by the existed in her own right- one thing to have a need to make something like one's existence clear to others, and perhaps in pursuit of such a goal one would make mistakes- prompted to action by an outside or OTHER---quite another to have that need to make the fact of oneself clear to oneself. Now that sure suggests an Alice falling down the rabbit hole. I'd like to read the book about Florence in her previous lives- who was she as a partner- who was she for the widowhood years?

Guess in a nutshell, I don't think Florence was making this decision for valid reasons, she probably would have had a different story had she decided to open the bookshop because she wanted to open a bookshop, had a passion for books, selling, authors, writing, the town etc.

Now that heron, wondering if he were eating the eel to prove he existed in his own right or was he hungry?

Completly overlooked that this was 1959 - it is a wonder she got a bank loan at all - I wonder if she even had the luxuary of doing what she loved - this act of opening the store as a singel business women regardless that she is widowed had to have been a threat to every women in the community - this is pre women's Lib. Widows were supposed to quietly fade away and knit booties for the church Bazar or as I understand in Britian they are called Bring and Buy. She is being widowed the year I graduated from High School. Not a lot of options for women then and all the doors that were opened because of WW2 were now closed naaa slamed shut.

Pat Swanson-- I'm so glad you've joined us. If you're able to post a message here, it seems your Earthlink connection is working, so we're off to a good start. Please join in the discussion and let us know what you think of the beginning of this book.

MarjV says "Any person beginning a new venture has vacilllating feelings. I thought that was a truth. Am I doing the right thing? Is this too big a step?" Yes, at least in her subconscious (or at night when she has trouble sleeping), Florence has vacillating feelings. I'm concerned, however, with her conscious feelings - of utter certainty that her apparently limited experience as a girl in "stocktaking" at Muller's bookshop, and her sixteen-year-old's concept of how to manage money, is adequate to prepare her for the step she's taking. Even her name, Green, suggests her inexperience (although I'm not sure it the English use the term "green" to express such a thing). Her impatience with the (utterly annoying) bank manager, Mr. Keble, although merited, also makes me worry a bit about what she's getting herself in to! As ALF puts it, " It doesn't sound as if Florence was too politic or business-savy, does it?"

I love the points Barbara and HATS make about the bleakness of the landscape and the loneliness of the people who live there. "Every fifty years or so [the town] had lost, as though careless or indifferent to such things, another means of communication. By 1850 the Laze had ceased to be navigable and the wharfs and ferries rotted away. In 1910 the swing bridge fell in, and since then all traffic had to go ten miles round by Saxford in order to cross the river. In 1920 the old railway was closed."

It makes one wonder yet again why Florence has chosen this endeavor. As Yili points out "one thing to have a need to make something like one's existence clear to others, and perhaps in pursuit of such a goal one would make mistakes- prompted to action by an outside or OTHER---quite another to have that need to make the fact of oneself clear to oneself. Now that sure suggests an Alice falling down the rabbit hole." Both the internally motivated decision to open a bookshop to prove to herself that she existed in her own right - and the externally driven decision to prove to others that she did - feel a bit like folly in this dying, lonely, cold, damp town.

And yet, there is some life - albeit "filled with political machinations," as Barbara points out - in the aptly named Hardborough. Milo North, who is known to drive up to London to work, and to be something in TV, lives there. He is tall and goes "through life with singularly little effort." When he speaks to Florence, she feeles "becalmed with this yoiung man in some backwater. . . . Time seemed to move faster there." He lives with a Kattie, "dark girl in red stockings - or perhaps they were tights, which were not obtainable in Lowestoft and Flintmarket, though not in Harborough." What is he doing in Hardborough?

And the inimitable Violet (ah, another color name) Gamart, "the natural patroness of all public activities in Harborough," who "sees fit to order everything from London." More about her later.

The red dress for the party was gutsy - for a person barely noticed by the town. So there is another color in all the gray. I couldnt help but feel the dress choice a slide along the same vein as her choosing new options. However, I had a feeling it wasn't going to go over. And if I remember the dressmaker wasn't really keen on that color. Dressmaker says, "I don't know that I'd have chosen red." And is this akin to the Kattie with the red stockings??????

I laughed so much over the incident where she helped the marshman with the horse by holding onto the tongue.

Think how other people try to define us. Rather than supporting what we want to try .

~Marj What a picture!!!!

The rappers are a new phenomenon for me. Perhaps, they are new to Florence too. However, she is not afraid of them. No matter what, she chooses to live in the old house. I have never believed in ghosts or such, but I don't like unexplained noises, especially if I am alone. So, I think Florence has a lot of chutpah! Florence Green's philosophy is "courage and endurance are useless if they are never tested."

When the realtor mentions the poltergeists. He says the house has an "unusual period atmosphere." I think that's funny. He has tact.

Because I am new and have not yet finsihed the book, I have an overview of the situation regarding the heron and the eel. I think there are many levels to the heron and the eel that would apply to Florence's life, as suggested by others. To be very basic, could Florence be taking over the Old House or is the Old House overtaking Florence? She certainly has no control over the rappers, the inconveniences of the place and the dampness which would not be a good situation for the books.

I love it that she has the courage to open the book shop but feel she then sabotages her success as a merchant by not truly stepping up and promoting the store via the art show, displaying more of the card stock and putting some kind of focus on the l50 Chinese silk book markers she loves, and ignores the seasons. How committed to the shop is she and how committed to making herself clear to herself is she?

Florence obviously had a need to "go for it" in spite of obvious flaws in the plan.

Good point about the house, Pat. Yes, it sure seems to have control. I also didn't understand purchasing the bookmarks - except as a whim.

~Marj

Pat - that is a beautiful point about the house and Florence and their similarity to the heron and the eel! I too wondered what would possess Florence to open a bookshop in a building with a still-flooded basement! Who is she kidding!

There is something completely irrational about Florence's dream. She is not a social person; it seems one would need to be to attract readers in such an inwardly-driven town. She has few connections in the town.

Why a bookshop? (Other than her experience at Muller's as a girl?) I'm puzzled by her decision. As Marj points out, "Florence had a need to go for it in spite of the obvious flaws in the plan.

From what does her need derive?

HATS mentions that Florence Green's philosophy is "courage and endurance are useless if they are never tested." What indication do we have that she is courageous? (That horse tongue-grabbing exercise certainly took some guts.)

I have trouble matching up this woman with her chosen endeavor. Help me out here.

"Existed in her own right." Given that she is a widow in 1959, it isn't too much of a leap to say that Florence Green is doing what SHE feels will, take your pick...set her apart from her main source of identity, her husband (even though dead); set her apart from who others still think she is, always thought she was; jolt her free from any combination of acceptable behavior from groups of her age, gender, community. Widow Green is a closed door. I see her wanting to open the door.

I'm not as mystified as you, Sarah, about why a bookstore. Fitzgerald doesn't make it clear...she only makes clear Florence's will to do it. I'm also less concerned with her skill, background, political savvy (on the short side). None of these things would guarantee her failure...something else did. Even the end result is less important to me than her will to break out of the....whatever it was she felt she was in...boredom, old identity, being taken for granted.

Reading this first part reminded me that as people age, I think something happens around them that is very hurtful. There is less intense need to know them, to know what they're thinking. In some sense, I read this need to open a bookshop as a need to be known, in her own right.

I wonder how our conversation about this book would be if Florence was able to create a bookstore that was even marginally successful so that she didn't appear to be leaving with her tail between her legs - I'm thinking that we are more uncomfortable with the failure of the Bookstore than the last pages make it sound like Florence is sad or angry or feeling badly.

I guess my thoughts are, do we only 'do' because of the outcome or is the 'doing' measured because of, and by, the outcome. I do not know about y'all but I have so many projects where I, with full intention to complete this wonderful picture I had of a pefect whatever, still have these projects in various stages of completion. That there were some things I purchased that I never really used in the most profitable way considering the wonder of the object or how the object could have been a benefit to me or others.

It is so easy to go to the pang of quilt about all this rather than seeing what I did benefit and what is valuable about these less then successful experiences. In fact who measures that they are or are not successful. I agree all the books and good advise says, that success is measured by what is completed and what brings a profit. But I wonder if we are short changing our view of succuess.

I think what is really hard to read is that her interest in enriching Christine's life was rejected in favor of Christine earning at the new bookstore and how easily Milo took advantage of Florence. How often was our own trust misplaced by someone or our desire and ability to give not appriciated. It hurts and it is hard to read a book that brings us face to face with our own diffult memories. But then do we just read to be reminded of what is pleasent in life or to imagine through literature that all endeavors can turn out as we would like.

I'm thinking, what are the benefits that Florence experienced in this endeavor. If alone in an apartment someplace with her financial future secured she would never have experienced a Christine or the need for a red dress in order to attend a dinner party. As Florence says "...courage and endurance are useless if they are never tested." And so, her success seems to be in the testing of herself rather than in the winning of a financially successful bookstore.

It appears to me the failure of the Bookstore had as much or more to do Mrs. Green than any miscalculation on the part of Florence. When ever a heron swoops down and grabs us it is so easy to review how we could have or should have avoided being notices or taken by the heron.

The Bookstore would have prospered, indeed, DID at first succeed, but for a malevolent personality leading the town and setting the pace. The other, weaker personalities just let go and let Florence down. This is a true portrait of what most of life is like. When you are dependent on the public for good will, and you lack a leader figure to rally the prevailing opinion on your behalf, you will lose. The image of the strong eating the weaker in the beginning is a snapshot of life on this planet. Likewise, the sentence at the very end sums it all up. You have to think about it, which is what this author expects you to do. She does not fill in the colors. She does not add up the figures.

Florence is ashamed because she failed to have the strong personality to influence her community to Desire to fight to see her succeed. They were unwilling to see the commercial and intellectual life of the town enhanced by this bookshop at the expense of their overcoming their own inertia. They were weak, and willing to let the strong guide their fate, even when that strength was not interested in their welfare.

Barbara, you and MaryPage and I are on the same wavelength. Reading down through BOTH your posts, I want to say......

AND, between Florence's will to begin the bookshop and the sabotage that finally works (sabotage being the hardest side of real life), Fitzgerald gives us a ton of things to wonder about, virtually without clues to her or a character's assessment. Such as, why did Florence Green want to open a bookshop?

At the scene of the bank loan, when the bank person was treating her as he would a child, it was then that I first admired her. Not for any answer or anxiety at that meeting, but just that she was AT THE BANK, PERIOD, doing whatever had to be done to get what she needed, goofs and all. It reminds me of the story of my grandmother, a gentle soul who never drove a car, was completely and happily a shadow behind her husband, and basically led a very small life. But, after their house burned to the ground about sixty years ago, it was she who marched into the bank to inquire about a loan for $900 to rebuild. The bank president in this tiny Texas town told her he would only talk to her husband about a loan. It is reported that she said, "Mr. Shoals, your mother and I sit together in Methodist ladies' bible class every Sunday morning and I know more about you than you would care to know." That's it....that's all she said. She got her bank loan. The story was repeated hundreds of times (by someone else) and each time, Grandmother would grin and say nothing.

Oh Betty! I LOVE it!

That must be where your extraordinary grit comes from!

I love the titles of the books Florence chose to keep - her motto - Unto this last,
Grace Abounding
Everyman
I will be thy guide,
in thy most need
to go
by thy side

I wonder if she felt ashamed or shame - Ashamed would mean she simply didn't live up to her own sense of what she valued. Where as shame comes with so much bagagge - that allows us to have unrealistic expectations of ourselves because we expect certain behavior is required in order to be worthy and we are dependent on others to give us a sense of our own truth. This give others the upper hand leaving us with few courses of action. The courses of action typical of a shamed peson is to either put up a shield while asking 'why' or to strike out. A shield takes care of someone but creates the problems of guilt, resentment and despair.

In some ways I see Florence as isolating in her bookstore - she is so protective of her books that the good will the artist may have provided along with an additional reason to shop in her store, the opportunity for a greater community involvment was lost. I wonder if her desire for identity and independence was so great that she didn't gather around her a support system. I keep thinking of what we have learned with the TV Survivors Game - I have only watched the last episode of the one done in Australia and saw the winner of the first one interviewed on some talk show. Each time the winning seems to be based on creating alliances. Mrs. Green sure had her alliances in place.

Hehehe - you are so right MaryPage - Betty's grit is in her genes - and her grandmother had the alliances of a Ladies Bible group!

I still have no clue what the business about the Rapper was all about.

I think she felt Both, Barbara.

She felt ashamed that she was not a stronger person; one who could prevent others from taking advantage of her and who could influence the community to rally to her cause, as opposed to deserting her in her hours of need.

And she felt shame that the community she had lived in for so long had no sense of loyalty to one of their own. That they could turn their backs, look the other way, close their minds to the wrong being done to a friend and neighbor.

Yes, the red dress. Red is a revolutionary color symbol in Russia. And it was a change in life style for her - the dress, bookshop. I know it has many other meanings.

~Marj

Wow I love that revolutionary- in a way I guess Florence's life at this point is a kind of revolution- not only in terms or the mores for women in 1959 but apparently for herself. Thinking ahead in this way, I am now making associations with all kinds of revolutionaries who may have started with a particular goal in mind, failed, or became corrupt, or had their ideologies corrupted by historical interpretations, were abandoned, etc. Perhaps this is a thread to consider as we read forward, perhaps (and thinking about the Blue Flower) there is a hint of this obscure theme within the book.

I certainly agree with all that has been said here about how and why she failed in the sense that the bookshop was not a success. I find it interesting that her thought at the end of the book with her head bowed in shame was that her town did not want a bookshop. In her mind, was it her fault or the town's? Was the journey worth it to her? Just a thought to ponder...

The point about alliances rings true, she certainly didn't have that going for her. I was so disappointed in Milo! Timing in life is so vital, how sad was it that Mr. Brundish should collapse and die on his way home from standing up for her with Mrs. Gamart? Forces of all kinds, including those rappers, seemed to be against her. I am glad she went for it in spite of it all. Making a bold move at her point in life is inspiring. And I loved her red dress as inappropriate as it might have been. I too had a red dress once that may not have been so appropriate either but I loved it anyway and remember it above others 47 years later!





The fact that there were some alliances was true for sure, sadly not on her behalf. I was certainly disappointed in Milo! It reminds me that a good deal of life is about timing. How sad was it that the one person, Mr. Brundish, who stood up for her by going to see Mrs. Gamart on her behalf should collapse and die on his way home?

Oh, yes, the red dress...wish I could find my notes. There was something about the fit or the look that didn't seem right to her, but, remember, the seamstress (or?) said not to worry, that (from memory here) as needed, she and the dress would fit together....or something about Florence adjusting herself to the dress, meeting the hang of the dress. (Well, shoot, I've gone to look for the book and cannot find the book either. Drat.)

This venture of hers, as so many ventures in our lives, didn't have a perfect fit....but I love the idea that, with time, the fit can happen, that success can be made up of adjustments along the way to unexpected setbacks or unexpected experiences. I guess I'm still more focused on her initiative and on her PROCESS of doing something new, and less focused on what the outcome was. Remember what every good coach/parent says when the little kids lose a game?

The above paragraph is from my head. From my heart....I'm going through such a difficult time, trying to accept that a gazillion things are out of my control. With a disability, there are too many things that must be delegated and there are days when I think, who's living this life, anyway! I opened the kitchen cabinet this afternoon and after seeing what my housekeeper did, even though I go through this with her again and again, I actually thought I was going to give myself permission to scream, a real scream. My sweetie Sam cat brushed my arm just at that moment, so I didn't...it would have scared him into next week.

The cabinet. The plastic cups with handles that I have for milk were on the 3rd shelf, out of my reach, and my best two cups in the world that cost an arm and a leg and that I looked for, for years, were stacked, one inside the other at an angle, as if sitting on a cafe shelf. Those two cups, as I keep explaining, cannot go into the dishwasher, etc., etc., they're hand painted, etc. (I don't have tons of good dishes, but I finally made myself begin enjoying the few pieces I have, so I've begun to have coffee in my favorite cups.) I know just what Florence went through, though, with all those outside forces working against her....or put a healthier way, I have to accept that there are some things out of my control, and why waste so much energy getting upset.

betty

So many of you talk about the journey Florence took - Pat, Yili and Betty most recently - and whether it, in itself, was the goal. Barbara too mentioned it when she talked of her many projects - some not completed - that she benefited from simply by embarking upon them. You make a wonderful point. There's something in me that has to keep reminding myself that the journey is often the goal. Perhaps it's my point in life (I was BORN in 1959), but I'm clearly at that in-between time where the journey begins to take on heightened meaning.

I think I will wear a red dress to work today! Aren't you right, Pat, that those "radical" colors make an impression on us! And red as revolutionary - that's a wonderful point, MarjV and Yili. I had seen Florence as a failure - and yet by standing up to the bank manager, and to Mrs. Gamart, and even to the dressmaker, she did something quite radical and bold. She shook up the mores of the town, challenged "authority." Indeed, the resistence she encountered is evidence of how much of an impact she had. Had she done something less revolutionary, she would not have had so much push-back. Even the rappers conspired to slow her down - and yet she persevered.

On a completely different note, however, I still struggle with the concept of a bookshop for Florence. Does she ever read a book prior to opening the shop (I don't recall that she does)?

What do you make of the flap over Nabokov's Lolita - is there any significance to the fact that it is this book Fitzgerald chooses to introduce?

What do you make of Fitzgerald's writing style? It is always surprising isn't it? She jumps from place to place; time moves slowly and then quickly; but she always manages to mine gems even in a small town such as Hardborough. You'd think we were in a much more complex place with the intrigue she conveys.

I was just reading posts & was reminded of this quote from Penelope on the HoughtonMifflin site (below).

On brevity: “I do leave a lot out and trust the reader really to be able to understand it. [My books are] about twice the length. . . when they’re first finished, but I cut all of it out. It’s just an insult to [readers] to explain everything

That is a great thought to remember when reading. i What isn't there in her words? i What is left for us to ponder? Since we each walk a unique path we bring different thoughts to this book. Betty's experience and frustration with her kitchen ware is something I don't have. But there are different things in my life I must "let go".

I have learned more and more in my wise elder years that the "journey" is so important. Especially when i reflect on life's events now that I am 64.

~Marj

The Bookshop - review HoughtonMifflin site.

Much later. I'm still thinking about the red dress, even though I still don't have the book in front of me. There are similar concepts or sayings about that initial ill-at-ease feeling she had about the dress. We say that someone may grow into a job, just as the three year old will grow into the gift of new shoes that are too big.

Also, there's the concept of behavior matching the clothes....as in school uniforms or the work world dress-for-success rule of dressing the part of the position you wish to achieve. It also calls to mind the decades long controversy over "casual" attire at the office. Most employers thought (and many still think) that switching from professional to casual clothes would negatively affect productivity. Then, of course, the high-tech revolution hit and casual attire swept the business world (visions of 23 year old CEOs on skateboards)...don't most companies have, at the least, casual Friday now?

Getting back to Florence, though, this red dress really tells us, more than just about any other clue Fitzgerald gives, how she was feeling at the beginning of the book. Full of life? Wild and crazy? You-just-thought-you-knew-me woman? Powerful? Also, and definitely, ambivalent (she worried over this dress), but just think of her age, the year, the fading-away little village and a red dress!!

Then, of course, my mind wanders to how this community reacted to the red dress. Still don't have my book in front of me, but I remember a few compliments. My thought, though, is that some may not have had a positive reaction....to what could easily be thought of as non-traditional behavior. Establishing a new identity, an "existence in her own right," is never as safe as maintaining the status quo. Internally and externally.

Additionally, there is the concept of pretending to be brave (or whatever) to make oneself feel brave. Even with all her ambivalence about the dress, Florence wore it. At any rate, she may have equated her new adventure/venture to the boldness of a red dress.

All this about the dress makes me want to know Florence's deepest secretive feelings. I wonder if she was feeling....all of you don't know it, but this is the real me....or, this used to be me and I wonder if it still is.....or, I want this to be who I am, now, I never got to be this when I was married.....or, this is how different/separate I am from all of you----as you're shrinking, I'm growing.

At any rate, opening a bookshop is something to which people will look up, take notice...so is wearing a red dress.

Of course, I could be making too much of the color red. My mother, a conservative and traditional woman, loves the color red. For her, opening a bookshop would require bravery, but not wearing red.

betty

The color red, according to my copy of "An Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Traditional Symbols" means more than courage or bravery - fire, sun, love, joy, festivity, passion, energy, ferocity, health, strength, anger, vengeance, martyrdom, faith, magnanimity, fortitude, calamity, a renewal of life. Celtic Death, the red horseman( hmmm we have a horses tongue being held) disaster Christian Christ's passion, blood shed on Calvary, the fire of Pentecost, zeal in faith, love, power, dignity, intredpidity, the colour of the cardinals' robes as soldiers of the Pope, the color of martyrdom and cruelty. Saints days are written in red, hence 'red letter day.' the colour of Whisuntide and the feasts of martyrs. Greek active versus the passive royal color of purple, Phoebus as solare and Ares as war, Priapus known as the Red God.

Sarah when Lolita hit the bookstores it was a huge uproar - all the Christian Churches baned it - anyone that looked twice at the cover of the book were assured the fires of hell upon death. Even Patton Place didn't get as much flap as Lolita secured. Shesh to hear talk the fires of hell were going to burst forth and drip down on all humanity. Hehehe it was a heavy seller. Patton Place had opened the doors to sin.

aha I would say red but tight - yep announcing the rebellion that was the freedom of woman for a Florance but still tightly rained to the mores of the day, protected by the 'who is who' in society. Is that Dr. Seuse's whoseville?

Courage and endurance are useless if they are never tested,  Florence believes.
"There was something unsatisfactory in the red, or rust, reflexion which semed to move unwillingly in the looking glass, as Florence tried on the dress.  The dressmaker assures her the dress "will come to you as you wear it."  The fitting  seemed to be turning into a conspiracy to prevent anyone noticing her new dress as all.  When questioned by Miles as to why she was wearing red for the evening, she proclaimed, "It isn't red ! It's garnet, or deep rust!"

Red!!  The color of blood, or red as in an alarm.  She certainly sent out an alarm to the town, didn't she?  She amazed and astonished everyone with her endeavor.  SHe more or less unnerved the citizens with her signal. (red.)

I believe Lolita was introduced here to remind us that "times were a-changing" at that period .  Many things that had been taboo (going against Mrs. Gamart for one) were now being considered, even enjoyed.  Nabokav pretty much did that with his introduction of Lolita.

Thanks, ALF and Barbara, for the background on Lolita. I always forget what a firestorm it once created. Do you think Fitzgerald intended Christine as a Lolita-like character? So grown up and yet such a child. Indeed, at the end, when Milo (who first suggested that Florence stock Lolita) recited to Christine,

"'Shower down tyy love, O burning bright! for one

night or the other night

Will come the Gardener in white, and gathered

flowers are dead, Christine.'

and Christine said, "You watch it, Mr. North,"

didn't you get a sense that there was a lot going on there between the lines? As MarjV pointed out, much of what Fitzgerald conveys is between the lines, between what IS written and what is only hinted at. Much could be written about Milo and his thrice-a-week visits from Kattie, and on what he did on the alternative days.

On another topic, I cannot help but be somewhat annoyed by what feels like petulance on Florence's part. She has a way of saying (or thinking) things, of correcting people, of barking back and standing up for herself, that is very self-righteous and not at all endearing (in my view). This is true even when she is interacting with characters I neither like nor trust. Some examples:

To Mr. Keble at the bank: "Culture is for amatuers. I can't run my shop at a loss. Shakespeare was a professional!"

After meeting Milo, who has not brought Kattie to Mrs. Gamart's party at the Stead: "Mrs. Green thought that he outght to have had the courage of his convictions."

Upon visiting Milo: "Milo North could be seen through the downstairs window, sitting at a table with a patchwork cloth, and doing absolutely nothing. 'Why aren't you up in London,? she asked, rapping on the pane. She felt mildly irritated by the unpreditability of his daily life.

To Mr. Thornton, the solicitor: " You mean you thought I wanted to get out of the Old House - which, by the way, is my only home - while you're still ditering about the fishermen's right of way."

Again to Milo, in response to his question, "What does your moral judgment tell you about me?" "That's not difficult," said Florence. "It tells me that you should marry Kattie, think less about yourself, and work harder."

Her letter to Mr. Thornton after he writes about the Lolita problem: "A good book is the precious life-blood of a master-spirit etc etc."

Again to Milo, "Why can't you ever say anything agreeable about any body?" and when Milo says "I don't like kind people, except for Florence," she says "That doesn't impress me. . . . You appear to me to work less and less. You must remember that the BBC is a Corporation, and that your salary is ultimately met out of public funds."

To the Education Authority's Inspectors: "Christine Gipping is just eleven, or what would she be doing in the Primary?"

In discussing Milo's work at the Bookshop: "Ony please remember that I didn't ask you to come. You asked yourself."

Of course, in every case, she's right! And yet . . . it's her utter lack of effort to be diplomatic, to play along, to mend fences and build bridges, that is her undoing. People can feel this kind of self-righteousness, and it can undo you if they have more power than you have.

Ultimately, therefore, I feel Florence is as much responsible for her undoing as are the others.

What do you think?

Being accused of being ever "willfull" myself, I have heard numerous times that one can "catch more flies with sugar than with vinegar." Florence might have considered that adage.

Poppycock!! and Harrumphhh, and Give me a Break, and

Ginnyyyy, can you hear me calling you home?

Now, lookie here, Sarah, I know that pc deprivation can take a toll on the system, but, uh, uh,

Think Kate Hepburn or, uh, uh, Eleanor Roosevelt or any other woman who spoke her mind, did not suffer fools and didn't bother to cultivate twinkling eyes or a sweet tone to soften her words.

And, why are we spending so much time...even at the first of the discussion...looking at how Florence did herself in. Especially with material that is loaded with how others let her down, couldn't we at least go easy on the sooooo familiar blaming-the-woman-for-her-own-problems stuff??? Have we practiced the woman-did-it-to-herself for so long that we can't see how others helped her do it??

betty

I second Betty's thoughts. There is NO WAY this woman was not the victim here. And the beauty of it is, she lacks self-pity and does not, herself, recognize her victimhood! The village did not want a bookshop, indeed!

Poppycock!

And ,MaryPage, the woman with power & influence led the pack.

~marj

Well, I just despised Mrs. Gamart. Ugh!!! But I wonder how the rest of you felt about the relationship between Christine Gipping, the little girl, and Florence Green?

There relationship seemed to be a bridging of the generational gap. Two people can share with one another, no matter the age.

I like Christine Gipping. She is wonderfully smart, I think.

Strange child though - so capable and yet couldn't pass her tests and then even flunks out of Tech school - now what was that all about, flunking out of Tech school - actually I guess she annoyd me at times - she seemed like all the rest of them - telling Florance what to do and how to do it, as if Florance didn't have a brain in her head. Florance sure seemed to be the sacrifical lamb in that village, but why? What are we as readers, supposed to understand better about life because of this antaginistic attitude between Florance and the others.

And what was the rapper all about - how would the story be wanting without the rapper - what does this rapper bring to the story - what does the rapper represent - the erratic beat of life or of society? The unknown presense of what??

At first, I thought Christine seemed to be a link between the community and Florence, or maybe I just wished she would be. Later, it was Christine that made me think of the village as straining, or being pulled in different directions---time wise. Are our children in the village little workers or are they to be protected and prepared to go off into the world (future)? Even Florence felt mixed and worried about Christine's preparation for the test.

There are suggestions in the story that the village is stuck in time and being cut off from the world, figuratively and literally, with decreased access in and out. Maybe that's one reason something new and innovative...a new business...was less than welcome. Interesting that Fitzgerald chose a bookshop...books hold new ideas, report what is going on in the world.

The rapper is difficult to discuss, I think, because we have no personal experiences with rappers. Me, I had to use the dictionary to find out the meaning of "poltergeist." As a reader, I am disoriented with the presence of the rapper, but I am not sure whether the people in the town are disturbed by the rapper.

However, at one point, Christine and Florence do seem frightened. "Christine had given up her Florence Nightingale voice. Mrs Green took her left hand, which was the nearest."

On the same visit with Florence, Christine says, "That's the rapper. My mam knows there's a rapper in this old place. She reckoned that wouldn't start with me, because mine haven't come on yet."

I don't understand what Christine is saying. "She reckoned that wouldn't start with me, because mine haven't come on yet." What hasn't come on yet?????

I suppose every country has its legends and talltales. Are poltergeist or rappers a part of this side of the world?

Because her periods have not come on yet. I am certain that is the reference.

Because I do not believe in ghosts, I would have a problem with believing the knocking was anything but an old board or shutter or some such. However, the author has the ghost do nasty things, so it is clear the author intends a real ghost here. This puts the book in the fantasy category for me.

Now I saw the rapper as a sordid link to the past, the former days of Hardborough . This spectral presented itself as a loud, boisterous, unwelcome visitor, attempting to frighten Florence away. It summarized the sentiments of its citizens - shady, spooky, chilling and unnerving.

Alf - yes - I like that explanation - the rapper symbolizes the past always entering the affairs of the village - all the children mentioned seem to have their 'work' - it is as if preparing themselves for a future that is based in education is beside the point, some new concept of growing up - something that is done in addition since life requires 'work' from youth onward - aha maybe that is adding to the isolation of the village - education brings the outside world into the mindset of the village.

Then I wonder why they are collecting for the Lord Baden Powell House. That is located in London and certainly outside the village.

Which by the way, I stayed at the Lord Baden Powell House back in 1979. I spent a month in Britian and Wales studying needlework and while in london (I wrote about 6 months ahead and secured a room) I stayed there. The place fills up with Boy and Girl Scout troops visiting London - the resturant is great and you meet these visiting children and their adult leaders - the rooms are clean but simple with the WC down the wide clean halls.

And best of all, at the time rooms in London could be found for $59 and up, this was only about $9 a night with meals in the cafateria costing less then $2. The only hitch is you must be a registered Boy or Girl Scout. In those years not only was I registered but had just completed 6 years as a memeber of our local Board of Directors for the Lone Star Girl Scout Council. I understand, but never pursued it, that the Friends have a house in London with similar arrangments.

As y'all know, Lord Powell is the founder of Boy Scouting with Jullete Gordon Low the founder of Girl Scouting in America and Lady Baden Powell the founder of Girl Guides in Britian.

I have been thinking about the title of this book "THE BOOKSHOP." So, as I think or read about this book, the bookshop must remain in the center of my thoughts, and everyone and everything is important only because of the bookshop's demise.

The bookshop failed. WHY??? On the first page, it says that Florence is a kind woman. "She had a kind heart, though that is not of much use when it comes to the matter of self-preservation."

I am thinking this is true. Perhaps, for a business to be successful, kindness must be put in the packback and left at home. Perhaps, more self assertiveness is needed or the business will fail. I don't think Florence Green is self assertive.

Some parts of the novel are difficult for me to remember because I finished the book long before the discussion. If I remember correctly, everyone ran that shop accept for Florence Green. Woman or not, I think she did not have a bit of business savvy.

I have never owned my own business, my father did own his own tailor shop. He was very successful. Anyway, I do not think you can make a community accept what YOU want to sell. I think you have to look at the community's desires. Are they groaning and moaning for a bookshop? No? Then, don't open one. Perhap, they are desiring a bakery, then you have to open a bakery. You have to look at the community's needs and desires.

I think Florence Green ignored the desires of her community and that is why the bookshop failed. It is difficult to do, but I think we have to face the fact that Florence Green, woman or not, made some dastardly decisions.

From Hats, "Are they groaning and moaning for a bookshop? No? Then, don't open one."

Can't argue with that!!

On the title of the book, Hats, I'm thinking of the recent discussions when we were discovering how often a publisher decides on a name....could be very different from what the author had in mind. Does anyone know about this one?

Betty- I can remember some time ago- (loooong time) when a trusted friend, male, said to me that I had to learn to not count on anybody but myself. when he first said it, I was appalled, not about how the phrase impacted on me- but him...I remember thinking no wonder he is....and.... etc. But over the years I have fallen back to that piece of advice on a number of occasions and found that, for me anyway, it prevents me from becoming or ever feeling like a victim.

So when I do not agree that Florence needs to be studied in what other's did to her, I am not suggesting that we paint her as a victim, but like in your follow ups- the Katherine Hepburn's and ER's of the world, I want to look at Florence in terms of how she has negotiated her own life. Yes there are others who impact on us all, but I also like to think about how I impact on others.

That dress code- funny- without thinking of making a purposeful impact, about three years ago I just decided no more business suits and traditional professional garb- I would dress for my comfort becuase I found I could think better and produce more and more creatively in my personal comfort attire (sorta like wearing those soft boiled eggs in the glass cup my grandma would bring me when I was sick) well turns out that about 7 months later my "dress" was the topic of workplace conversation, many women seeing me as rather courageous and a multitude of other qualities were assigned to me- so thinking about Florence, I wonder how much of her was defined to the town by her first foray in that red dress- and I wonder how much was a conscious statement on her part?

Also along the way, I see Florence making rather unwise business decisions- either from inexperience or making emotional decisions rather than objective business decisions- the emotional ones are not wrong, but in business, even the book business, each decision has a financial consequence.

I wonder had she been more "flush" would she, in this town, have garned the power that comes with entrepreneurial prosperity?

Betty, I had forgotten that fact. I wonder did Penelope Fitzgerald have another title in mind. I don't know. I am not good at finding extra links like the other posters.

When the beautiful silk bookmarks are bought, Christine does not write the correct post in the ledger. This "mistake" is overlooked until Ivy Welford has a fit. "I'm not questioning that. It's not my concern to ask you how the business is run. My worry is that they're posted in the sales book as having been sold at fivepence each. How do you account for that?......"

Poor Florence! I think she is in over her head. Maybe there is something else she is meant to do with this part of her life. It is easy to want to step out, but it is also easy to step out into the wrong places.

Now I'm confused. I appreciated the care of your post, YiLi, but I don't understand, exactly...but I want to. Kate Hepburn came to mind because she was criticized for how she talked to people, as Sarah listed some things Florence said that didn't sit right with her. Charm deficient utterances have always gotten women into trouble.

The victim thing. Doesn't matter to me what we call the political undermining from others. A few didn't play fair. Some actively worked to get her out. Others passively stayed quiet. I don't know if we know enough of Florence's reaction(s) to decide if she is or isn't a victim (in one sense). She was the recipient of some pretty nasty undermining. Maybe our discussion is too sophisticated to only answer whether she was or was not a victim.

Maybe it's just me, but I have less interest than some in looking at all Florence's failures. So much of her experiences ring bells with me...memories of me and others. You don't want to hear all the misjudgments I made politically when I felt hammered down in business. You don't want to hear how savage I was in rating my miscalculations, sometimes so tired of the push-pull that I just let go and swept along.

I was in a mean, historically male, competitive business, and was the only woman in regional meetings of several states. The worst part is when I did well and kept doing well...it was the late 70s and a few men whose district sales figures I passed would have celebrated if I'd died. My boss was secure in himself and was glad for me, but his boss (office in New York) could not stand the idea that the first female sales manager did not fail. He felt the same about the first Black (my true buddy). I have war stories about regional and home office meetings that still make me have bad dreams. I loved the work with my employees. I hated the cost of being on display.

Perhaps it's generational, Betty. I came up in a world where no one ever expected me to fail because I am a woman - and I haven't. I feel fundamentally that I am responsible for my own successes (and failures). It's a view that has worked for me for 42 years. My mom, who is also a professional, raised me this way.

The rapper for me symbolized the forces trying to drive Florence away. The fact that she, for the most part, was not put off or frightened by the noises was a tribute to her tenacity. Maybe Fitzgerald intended the rapper figuratively, rather than literally. Or maybe the rapper actually was planted - by Gamart? - to scare her off. I found myself suspicious of this.

Is Milo North a pedophile? That was what I was trying to get at earlier. There is something uncomfortable in his continual attempts to get Florence to stock Lolita, and in his overly familiar way with Christine.

You're right, Barbara, that it was odd that Christine was so smart in the bookshop, and yet unable to pass even the lower tier "technical" school exams. What accounts for this?

Oh yes Sarah very generational - I am 68 and have the memories of little opportunity for woman and the forced dependency on men along with the unjust behavior expected of us - Betty sounds like she is probably in her 50s and she fought the war. With freedom come the battles of the fittest - when the doors where opened to women they were not tought that they would become the new weak link and that competition was going to swoop all over so the boys with their superior street smarts, economic ability and worth could notch their gun handle or add another scalp to their pole - as women succeeded and women's wealth increased, real independence was possible, they were able to lay to rest their dependency on men. And voilà women were self directed autonomous beings able to direct their own destiny with calm assurence they could fight any battles that may occur along the way. They could even stop copying the male dictates and bring their own sensablities into the market place without risking being considered the weakest link.

What is amazing is all this happened within decades rather than within generations. The fact that it happened so quickly I think is what has promoted a puzzelment of understanding between woman very close in age. I know my daughter in her late 40s, the last of the warriors, cannot understand my lack of aggressiveness when something needs to be righted and yet she acknowledges, in my way I am forceful and get it done.

I am 72. I went to work in 1962 for a company that was new to the county I then lived in. This company had come from a large city (Baltimore) to the then fairly small-townish Montgomery County, Maryland. We were asked to join that county's branch of the national organization for that particular industry. Because of my position with the firm, I was sent as one of 2 company representatives to the first monthly meeting. Well, Wow! Did we ever make a weird first impression! The vice president of the firm who accompanied me was taken aside almost at ONCE and told that they had one meeting a year set aside to bring the wives!

You see, the boo boo was that I was THE ONLY WOMAN in the very large room!

But I was NOT brought as a wife! I was actually sent to represent my firm!

It was extremely embarrassing. I stayed through cocktails, dinner, and some speeches; but left before it was over. It was so OBVIOUSLY a guy thing! I remember the then governor of Florida, LeRoy Collins, was the main speaker. His, and other, remarks were definitely quite off-color for those days, and I was most uncomfortable.

Ladies, seriously, I have been under the impression ever since that it was not truly our competence the men questioned. They just preferred to keep the locker room mentality and behavior EVEN IN THEIR BUSINESS DEALINGS AND MEETINGS! They did not want to have to behave like gentlemen ALL THE TIME!

Well, I chose to sit at a table in the back of the room (it was held at NORMANDY FARMS, a lovely country restaurant) and the 7 men at my round table were all charming to me. I was asked what I wanted to drink; was drinking grasshoppers socially in those days. I wound up with 7 of them at my place. Never could finish them!

It was a couple of decades before they sent a woman again! There are HEAPS of women in that business today!

This is so great - I love hearing your stories!! And to think this book has inspired us to tell them.

My grandma is in her 90s and went to law school in Oklahoma when she was but a young woman. She too has always insisted no one ever treated her differently because she is a woman. I find that incredibly hard to believe - and have always insisted to her and myself that she must have developed an exceptionally thick skin over the years and stopped noticing the slights. She insists I'm wrong (but I still don't believe her).

I am exceptionally grateful for the battles the women before me fought - and appreciative of the different feelings we have because of when (and even where) we came up.

Is Florence an educated or literary woman? Are any of the women in the town who are so intent on obstructing her path? Are they resistant because she has chosen a bookshop rather than something more "practical," because they aren't particularly fond of books? Would they work so hard to foil her if she had opened a different type of establishment - something like Rhoda's dress shop, for example? Or is it simply Florence - the outsider, the quiet one, the socially inept - that they reject? I struggle with why other women in the town are "allowed" to succeed - the dressmaker, the accountant, the schoolteacher - and yet everyone has it in for Florence. It seems she gets it from all sides - from the society matron, Mrs. Gamart, from the dressmaker, from the yuppie (Milo), from her accountant . Other than Christine, does she have any townswoman on her side? And why not??

Love those questions, Sarah. That's where I am...what's at the heart of this mismatch? One thought is that the other women are somehow following an unspoken code of what will fit and Florence's bookshop (or Florence) does not. Maybe the books roughly stand for progress, growth, (change), or do they stand for another kind of change, as Lolita might suggest.

My life on the Oregon coast was an ongoing learning experience. In the village of 1,200, the running semi-serious joke was that after you'd been a resident for ten years, you'd be introduced as "one of our new residents," but before that, just your name would be said and nothing about "resident." People were friendlier than that joke implied, but I noticed that it continued to be told.

So, I wonder if Florence has broken an invisible rule of the village? Some unspoken agreement about who could start a business and who couldn't. Or when or where. The players seemed firmly in place, so maybe the same is true of the invisible rules of the culture (of the village). A hierarchy of silent rules. Don't most towns have this to one degree or another?

-------------------------------------------------

I had a thought earlier today about looking at this story in a more general light....asking if there is something generally familiar about Florence's experience. Have we experienced any of her reactions, feelings, frustrations? All the way to the biggie...has something happened that we never did figure out all the reasons for its outcome?

So many familar bells for me. I've done something difficult that didn't have consistent (or enough) support. My divorce fits putting in tons of work into something that ends badly. Plenty, plenty times I've lived through trying to fit in, trying to read the signs of what is expected. Other times, I've happily and with some deliberation not fit in, exactly, preferring the periphery.

I have a champion badge in misjudging who I could count on. Isn't this in the number one slot, anyway, in expected disappointments in life? Shouldn't be a shock, just part of the pluses and minuses in life. Even though it feels like a falling wall of bricks each time.

I identify with the way Florence sees beauty in something...the old house...that defies explanation.

more later...

betty

I am lost. I don't see the problems Florence faced as gender related. I think the bookshop does not work because the town is not progressive in it's thinking. The town is dying, and so, maybe anything or anyone who arrives there dies.

Even the beach is dying. It's not a beautiful beach with white sands and blue water. There are bones washing up on the beach and bodies of seals. Torn newspapers float across the beach as if the people are leaving a bit of their frustration there.

Perhaps, Florence' legacy to the town will not be the bookshop but her kindness to others. Sometimes our life journey takes us in a different direction. Our legacy something other than the one we thought we would leave.

Even though the bookshop will not survive, I think a part of Florence will be left there. What will that be? Maybe just the memory of someone who has come into town and tried to make a difference. Perhaps, Florence is just a trailblazer.

With all the problems in the town, whether with people or weather or whatever, there is a good bit of humor in the book. I laughed out loud at this one.

"On wet afternoons, when the heavy weather blew up, the Old House was full of straggling disconsolate holiday parties. Christine, who said that they brought sand into the shop, was severe, pressing them to decide what they wanted. 'Browsing is part of the tradition of a bookshop,' Florence told her. 'You must let them stand and turn things over.' Christine asked what Deben would do if everyone turned over his wet fish. There were finger-marks on some of her cards, too."

Oh, that is so funny!!!!

HATS makes two linked points: "Perhaps, for a business to be successful, kindness must be put in the packback and left at home. "

and

"Perhaps, Florence' legacy to the town will not be the bookshop but her kindness to others. "

How do you figure her kind heartedness factors in to her fate? Fitzgerald clearly believes it does - paragraph 2 of the book: "she has a kind heart, though that is not of much use when it comes to the matter of self-preservation."

This concept of self-preservation is a big one for me. Does Florence do anything designed at self-preservation - or does she leave herself out there, naked so to speak, for all of the towns-people to despoil and drive away?

What difference would it have made if Mr. Brundish had not died when he did? There is the classic Mapp-and-Lucia-esque (for those of you that have accompanied us on our Benson journeys here in the books) story of Brundish meeting with Mrs. Gamart, leaning on her to leave Florence alone, and then, precipitously, dying so that Gamart need reveal nothing about their conversation to the town. Of what significance is it that the oldest and most comfortable member of the town - whose house, Holt house, was older even than the 500-year-old Old House - was one of the few who supported Florence?

Betty I think we are looking at the term "victim" differently but we agree on the concept. I agree that Florence had extra challenges by the way people in the town treated her.

Rappers- hmm wonder if they were perhaps 'informers' sending Florence messages and she could not really hear them because of her fear? I would imagine if the spirits lived in that house and town for a bit, at least a previous generation, they sure had some insights into the goings on.

Why is that name Milo North so familiar, was there a TV show or a movie who had a Milo North- was it a detective show? was it a radio show?

Yili, this is perfect: "I would imagine if the spirits lived in that house and town for a bit, at least a previous generation, they sure had some insights into the goings on. " Makes perfect sense, especially since The Old House is 500 years old. Of course - there is history here, something like this has happened before, or why would The Old House be unoccupied!? Probably has happened again and again in precisely the same spot.

I was thinking we'd discuss The Bookshop for one more week, and then segue into The Blue Flower. How does that sound to all of you?

I would love to discuss it for another week! Everytime I read another line in this book, I gain further insight. Perhaps, this is why Penelope Fitzgerald was a great writer. Each word and sentence leaves you with more questions. You know that you need to dig a little deeper.

After rereading about Theodore Gill and his watercolor display, I could see how people in the town just chose to ignore Florence. They treated her as a non-person. I don't think it is because she is a woman, but just her demeanor.

So, I had to think again about this woman's appearance, her demeanor. The beginning of the book describes her as insignificant. "She was in appearance small, wispy and wiry, somewhat insignificant from the front view, and totally so from the back. She was not much talked about...."

I think people took advantage of her because of her height and her kindness. I think she chose to open a bookstore just because she wanted to disturb the town in someway. In other words, make the town notice that she was alive, a real person. Before the bookstore, she was just a walking shadow, almost like a ghost.

I think, in the end, she achieved what she wanted to achieve. For better or worse, she did make people look up and notice Florence Green.

YiLi Lin helped me understand the rappers too. They were a part of the town's history."Poltergeists, in Hardborough, were called rappers. They might go on for years...."

Before the bookstore, she was just a walking shadow, almost like a ghost. Hats- I wonder if you have characterized the link between Florence and the Rappers?

Also thinking about the town and Florence, maybe because it is a small town we are expecting more from 'it' than we would if it were an urban center. The townfolk, like most consumers, seem to be mostly interested in their product and how their lives can be enhanced by it. Florence, as a businesswoman, is a purveyor of that enhancement, and of course, then becomes the target for any disappointments. I am also thinking of the time- 1959- if I recall even here in America we were making headway into a consumer mentality, all kinds of gadgets were advertised with what became the new media- the gadget itself, or car, or book, or beauty product- carried with it promise. If we just owned this one thing, our lives would change (for the better).

I wonder how the lives of the townsfolk changed or did not as a result not only of the bookshop but the lending library- why such a frenzy over those books and the process of lending and waiting one's turn. Perhaps where one sat on the lending list, created a new kind of power or overall town hierarchy- Florence then was the purveyor of power and status- aha no wonder all the fuss.

I probably mentioned Mr. Brundish too early in this discussion. I think his opinion could have had an impact on the outcome. It seems as if he may have had even more power than Mrs. Gamart if longevity played into the power structure of the town. I couldn't believe the bad timing of his death and the drama of it.

As to Florence being kind and not a tough business woman, is it possible she knew the kindness would not serve her well but chose to be so anyway? Courage of her convictions? When I was in the business world, I made a conscious decision to be who I was and not act a tough as others in my positon did. It took awhile for people to realize that it did not mean a lack of strength. It takes a great deal of strength to be of a gentle nature. Makes me think again of her parting thought from the town, that they did not want a book shop. That they didn't get it, didn't understand. I am left with the thought that she didn't see the failure as her failure but as their failure. That she was ashamed for them. Penelope Fitzgerald doesn't let us in on the inner dialogue of her characters very much and we have to try to figure it all out, kind of like a puzzle.

To backtrack a bit, thank you Sarah for recognizing that the women who came before you made some personal sacrifices to make things better for the next generation. That we did, but it is not often recognized. I am seeing some women, younger than your generation and a lot younger than mine, taking it for granted. Not only that, but using feminine wiles on top of the new freedoms and opportunities. One only has to listen to the lyrics of young women rock stars. I also see it in the thirty somethings. I guess that's enough of a rant on that subject!

It does take courage to show kindness in certain circumstances.I am also thinking that it takes courage to be tough, and even more courage and creativity to interweave both qualities, toughness and kindness.

I do believe that kindness alone will not allow us to survive. Neither will toughness alone allow one to survive. I am reminded of the child rearing theory "tough love." I am thinking, I might be doing a repeat, that Florence's ideals or goals are far beyond just making a profit.

Pat's post "she didn't see the failure as her failure but as their failure," gives me much to think about as I ponder Florence's life.

When Mr. Brundish invites Florence over for fruitcake and tea, he serves her from a teapot on which a quotation is written. "Round the crest ran a motto: Not to succeed in one thing is to fail in all."

Somehow, I feel this quote has a lot to do with Florence, but I can't seem to wrap my mind around the concept. I think P. Fitzgerald wants us to find and hone in on Florence's success. Perhaps, what I see as her successful moment or acheivement might be totally different in someone elses mind, but could it be possible that none of us would be wrong?

Did Mr. Brundish purposely serve tea from that particular teapot, hoping that Florence would read the quote?

Pat - I've been wondering about the fact that she saw the town's rejection of the bookshop not as her failure but as their failure. Clearly, at least to me, when we read the last line of the book, we understand that Florence feels shame for the town rather than for herself: "As the train drew out of the station she sat with her head bowed in shame, because the town in which she had lived for nearly ten years had not wanted a bookshop."

And yet, is that really true? There were readers - witness the success of the lending library. Was it the bookshop the town rejected - or Florence? Why wasn't the failure as much Florence's as the town's.

When Milo suggests that Florence stock Lolita, he notes that there may be some pitfalls associated with carrying it : "Are you afriad that the little Gipping girl might read it? . . . . Or that the Gamarts mightn't like it?"

Florence: "I don't want to take any of these things into account. If Lolita is a good book, I want to sell it in my shop."

Milo: "It would make money, you know, if the worst came to the worst."

"That isn't the point, Florence replied, and really it was not. She wondered why this matter of the worst coming to the worst seemed to recur. Only a few days ago, down on the marshes, Raven had shown her a patch of green succulent weeds which, he said, were considered a delicacy in London and would fetch a high price if they were sent up there. 'That might help you, Mrs. Green, if things don't work out.' "

What was Florence's point in opening this bookshop? To prove to the town that she was someone, a woman in her own right, a person worthy of notice? A literate person with taste, who wasn't afraid of the risks she was taking?

If you asked Fitzgerald what her point was in writing this book, what do you think she might say? Is it a commentary on rural England and on the influence of the outside world on small towns such as Hardborough. After all, Mrs. Gamart orders party food from London, Milo works there, and even Raven is influenced (see foregoing quote) by what might sell there.

On the nature of small towns generally?

On the pitfalls of being a woman alone?

In Hardborough, it was easier to "go along with" the existing powers than to support someone breaking into the business community.

This story is about a woman being tested, but more than that, a small community being tested. I think Fitzgerald was writing primarily about the small community of 1959, and in the process, revealed what a woman would face if she bucked the system.

There is also an underlying something about how normal it is to deal with the unexpected. Her story is not an odd one...we've all had experiences of timing being off (her best supporter died, for goodness sake) or loss of support, or mismatches in business and personal settings. This village may not have been ready for a Florence.

If we could not blame anyone or anything, what would we be talking about? Seriously.

Interesting how in literature and life, places take on qualities and function in a way that reminds one of the Greek diety. There had to be more people living in this town than the characters we were introduced to, did they live by the script? were they overpowered? I wonder like in the discussion of individual development which plays a greater role in the personality of places- ?genes , environment etc. I am thinking how different this town is as compared to the town in Renato's Luck. Somehow I think these places evolve in a way that characters evolve and at some point develop lives of their own- like characters who sort of take off in spite of the author.

Wonder what the rappers would think.

It is so enlightening and fun reading back over the posts. I love it!! Still thinking about Florence, I think she has a large amount of courage. I think she is pleased with herself simply because she tried to make a change, and she should be pleased. She took a risk. I feel risk takers are always happier.

For a true risk taker, what is success? Success is taking a chance. Florence is not ashamed of herself. She took a risk, and I think that is all she wanted to do. She has proven her courage, and this courage will allow her to take other steps in her life.

I think it would be quite stimulating to have lunch with Mr. Brundish. He says COURAGE is Florence's best attribute. "Let me tell you what I admire in human beings. I value most the one virtue which they share with gods and animals, and which need not therefore be referred to as a virtue. I refer to courage. You, Mrs Green, possess that quality in abundance."

What a compliment!!! I think Florence had courage, but the town did not have courage. So, the town remained in a rut. "No fish and chips in Hardborough, no lauderette, no cinema except on alternate Saturday nights, the need of all these things was felt..." What a boring place!

I find it interesting that Mr. Brundish picked courage as Florence's defining trait, not kindness. A kind spirit could not survive in Hardborough.

I find the conversation between Mr. Brundish and Florence fascinating. In so little time, they cover so many important issues.

What a line! "loneliness was speaking to loneliness."

Please give a big SeniorNet welcome to ine, who will join us for the discussion of The Blue Flower. ine - I'm very happy to have you with us! Have you read Fitzgerald before? Is she a special favorite - or is she, as she is for many of us, a first time discovery?

I'm so glad you'll be joining us!!

Welcome!!

It must be the mood I'm in....a little loopy, silly. Plus not enough sleep last night. I started out with a "serious" question for myself......what would be the equivalent of Florence's actions in 1959....today?

A major post-WWII focus for almost two decades was the glamorization of the role of housewife, e.g., when the woman-of-the-kitchen television commercials started in earnest. All the time saving appliances hit the market within a few years of each other and were promptly presented in commercials by women in heels and shirtwaist dresses. Remember? (Even college enrollment dropped for women; it was actually higher before WWII than after.)

Whether in England or the U.S., it was FAR from the norm for a woman to start a business. In 1959, it was not yet the norm for a woman to work outside the home, except for women of color, who have always worked outside the home.

So, I was trying to imagine what a Florence of today would do and I honestly couldn't think of something (which is good news, I guess, if I couldn't come up with something that society was not prepared for). Then I thought of it. Or, I'd given up and ventured into the ridiculous. A gardening shop called Lesbians' Garden.

Just kidding, of course. Has anyone else felt a moment of irritation at Fitzgerald and all her empty spaces between the lines?

Another thought about the Rapper. The decaying old house could be the village and the Rapper, the fear of the unknown or unusual....the Rapper's presence haunting the house.

Looking forward to sharing The Blue Flower with you, Ine!

It looks like I joined a great group. Never heard of Penelope Fitzgerald before, but I like her style, and the subject of the book. Mary Page from Annapolis: glad to meet you, I'm Ine (pronounced Ena) from Guelph (Ontario), the home of the U of Guelph, and sometimes called The Royal City.

Welcome ine (ena) We are happy to have you with us and look forward to a long and satisfying reading relationship.

WELCOME INE by any chance ine is your background British? We have assumed and guess a marchman is someone that makes their living on the marches, but doing what - do you know ine? And while we are at it we never decided what a reedcutter did with the reeds we presumed he cut.

I will extend my welcome also, Ine, although I am new here too! It's been a couple of weeks and I am enjoying the discussion very much. It is delightful getting to know everyone, such bright and interesting people.

Welcome Ine!!! I hope you enjoy "The Blue Flower" discussion. I will not be here for that discussion, but I will read the posts.

I have enjoyed your posts, Pat. Your posts have given me a better understanding of the book, "The Bookshop." WELCOME.

Pat Swanson, Alf, and Barbara St. Aubrey (answer to what does a marshman do: go fishing? and, a reedcutter: would he make thatched roofs? And: No, I'm not British, I'm Canadian). Also, Betty Gregory (About remembering the glamorizations of housewives in advertising in the fifties: How could I forget, wading up to my ankles in toys, small kids, dog and cat, almost breaking an ankle, once, trying to wear high heels while cooking). About your venture into the ridiculous about a Florence of today; what would she do that society was not prepared for? A Lesbian gardening shop sounds great. May I add my ('just kidding') contribution? How about a marijuna cafe, or perhaps a nudist colony in the marshes? Sorry, I'll be quiet until we start with The Blue Flower - I didn't even read The Bookshop. It's just so enticing to jump right in.

Hehehe here in Austin we have a nudist beach that was established back in the 60s. There have even been weddings, would you believe at this beach!

Yes, ine, I read you were Canadian but in my mind most Canadians are either of British or French heritage. Just wondered if your background was British. Thanks for your imput about how a marchman and a reedcutter actually play out thier skills identified by their vocational names.

Pat I keep forgetting you have only joined Books and Lit. Your posts are so great that I have grown to depend on them.

Seeking a 2001 similarity for a Florance???? - After seeing again, on PBS, the story of the Nam Vets held prisoner of war, which included current interviews of several, including John McCain, I really have a hard time with the concept of women on frontlines during war. You just know that a woman would be subject to more than physical brutality. She would probably be gang raped. Therefore, seeing a woman on a bus leaving her place of internment, similar to Florance leaving this uncooperative village accepting her financial failure, although with personal courage, I can not quite equate a woman vet's degraded failure as her feeling personal courage offering much solice. I understand there are woman brutally and sexually tortured, mostly in the South American countries, but, they are not being tortured as representatives of an army. Maybe I just do not see being so committed to an army that this kind of experience would be tolarable. Individual freedom and life I understand, even family I understand but to an indifferent nation I do not understand.

Today I think the social mores that shock us are more along the lines of brutality, especially to children. Where as in other places in the world various illnesses and other social mores still shock or are pushd under the rug in a form of denial. It wasn't too long ago we had a very backwards understanding of AIDS and so a bookstore owned and operated by a victim of AIDS would not have gone down too well.

Now in some areas of this country that are very conservative about their interpretation of their Bible would probably not support a Lesbian shop of any sort.

Another whole discussion but I wonder how well a released prisoner would be accepted as the owner and oporator of a shop.

Thank you to Hats, how I love that name and hats, and to Barbara St. Aubrey for comments on my posts. I started late and felt as if I've been scrambling a bit to catch up.

Back to Florence, feel like we should call her Flo...that we are getting to know her that well, or maybe not! To me she did have great courage based on what we as women could do in 1959. We were not allowed to qualify for a loan to buy a house let alone get a loan to start a business. I can't decide if I think she was brave or unwise in choosing "Lolita" for the book shop. The people we got to know in that town appeared to be quite staid. The book sold well but did she pay a price for that in the eventual outcome? So many questions. Yes, to those of you who are frustrated with Fitzgerald expecting us to read between the lines, I too am frustrated.

About those ladies of the 50's cleaning house in high heels and shirtwaist dresses, don't forget that single strand of pearls.

Ah, yes, the pearls, how could I forget.

Thank goodness there are others who feel somewhat frustrated with our author. It's almost the first subject we've talked back and forth on to each other. I've felt sooo disconnected during this discussion, but maybe I'm not the only one.

I think I'll ask again if there are others who (at least) identify with (1) an experience that didn't turn out as planned; (2) a time when let down by others, or had a loss of support; and something new, that I haven't asked before....has anyone done something with the same motivation as Florence....decided to find a reality, an identity?, in her own right...whatever that means to you/us.

Some aspects of Florence's story remind me of my late 70s, early 80s experience in the business world. All the employees I supervised were men and all the people I reported to were men. Even my hiring a few women didn't change the dynamics that much. I was in a good'ole boys culture. I did well after winning over the people who worked for me---I was more organized than any male boss they'd had, more willing to work long hours, motivated through support and education, not fear---but my experience with upper management was a nightmare.

I was called at 1AM in a Chicago hotel and told I was to come to a "private meeting" with my manager's boss in his hotel suite. Know how I got out of that one? I called my manager's room and told him I was going to have some kind of chest pain in a few minutes and would be calling 911 and asked him if he would let his boss know---we'd been through this sort of thing before, so he said, "not again!!" I actually pretended my way through a trip to the emergency room.

I lived in dread of those out of town meetings. This was all during a time when my boss and other colleagues felt sure that I would lose my job if I made a formal complaint. This happened to women everywhere...where complaints led to finding the women at fault.

Another female manager, from another state, called me for support and help. When we found out we had similar problems, we did find a way to "complain," but without the complaint being traced to us. (Our letter to home office was mailed from a 3rd state and was not about treatment of women.) Our long distance friendship helped me tremendously, but the strain escalated and I left after 5 years. Too many things were not within my control, such as the cowardice of my own manager. That's the part that reminded me of Florence's situation, the external forces over which she had no control.

And only going to to town, shopping, in white short gloves and being called the "little Lady" by many, including the salesmen at Montgomery Wards. There was all sorts of disparaging remarks made about a women driver.

The church had a group of representatives that reviewed all movies and books. Off the alter on Sunday the announcements were made about those movies or books that did not measure up to the code and were therefore banned or received an X rating.

Women soon Realized their biggest competion for the week was, who in the nieghborhood on a Monday morning had their wash hanging on the line before 9:AM. The 'good' housewives had their beds made by 8:AM and their floors so clean you could eat off them. Life insurance was a waste of money for a women. If she died it was explained that the man would simply remarry. The family lost no required income as they would if the man died.

If money was tight there would be money for sons to attend college but not daughters. And those girls that did attend college, many bluntly admitted they were looking for their MRS rather then their BS or BA. Nice girls were "good" girls.

If you became pregnant you had to leave school and if married and working you had to leave your job (at IBM, one of the most liberal companies at the time, that was the rule)

Once a man was promoted into management, a wife was judged based on her quiet decor, good housekeeping, if the household was a poster of frugality, the children were well behaved and did not have any physical defect or chronic illness, she was not politiacally active and she was socially liked. If she measured up than the husband would be considered for the next promotion. God forbid if any in the family went to a psychologist or attended AA or Al-anon meetings. If so, not only were you no longer promotable but you were a social outcaste. In fact even being epileptic had to be kept a secret.

A woman could not have a seperate bank account if she was married nor as Pat posted, could a women get any kind of loan. Her lending ability was limited to charging at the grocery store and the 'local' department store.

The gritty ones included, if she was raped it was her fault as was incest. And the one that was still on the books till the mid 1980s, if a woman was beat up by her husband and the police called the fine was $25.

We're posting at the same time Betty - I remember in the mid eighties - I repeat in the mid- eighties - delivering a contract to an ( I should say gentleman but I won't) out-of-town buyer in his hotel room and being more than propositioned. Upon returning to the office flustered and upset I told my female Broker, I was told I should have had another agent accompany me if I was delivering something to a man at his hotel!

Remember the old argument about men need more pay because they have children to support? Back in the 50's or 60's, a woman doctor who was on the school board, made history in my Wisconsin community and shocked the populous when she publicly announced "We should not pay our teachers according to their fertility."

In the 70's a single friend, a mom, was so happy she was getting to buy a house -- her father was signing the loan with her.

Sometimes luck prevails. In 1974,as a recent divorcee moving from Puerto Rico to Nashville, TN I needed to rent a car. I could pay cash, but one needed a credit card to rent a car. I'll always remember Budget because they let me use a Penney's card in my ex-husbands name.

Was reading posts in another ongoing discussion (of The Blind Assassin, by Margaret Atwood), and one very active poster said about the main character in THAT book, "Don't have the sense that Iris has grown, learned anything or even looked at anything from a different perspective. She just got even, and by doing so - lost even more. Iris just DOESN"T LEARN!!! "

I felt the same way about Florence, somehow. She hung her head in shame for the town as she left it, but did she learn anything about HERSELF in the process? Will she do things differently in the future? Should she have stayed and made a go of things - doing something else, perhaps - in Hardborough? Wouldn't that have shown the townspeople something? Is leaving in frustration and disappointment the best course?

On contemplating her purchase of the beautiful Chinese bookmarks, Florence had a conversation with herself " 'I don't know why I bought these,' Florence reflected after one of these [vendor] visits. 'Why did I take them? No one used force. No one advised me.' She was looking at 200 Chinese bookmarkers, handpainted on silk. The stork for longevity, the plum-blossom for happiness. Her weakness for beauty had betrayed her. It was inconceivable that anyone else in Hardborough should want them."

Doesn't this passage say a lot about Florence one one hand and the outside forces she faced - including the townspeople - on another? She had a weakness for the beautiful, the impractical, was drawn to the inspiring, silken images. The hard people of Hardborough simply could not be bothered with such frivolity.

It's almost as if Florence was not meant for this world she inhabited. She was a spirit from another place, an alien, come to attempt to fit in and make a go of things in an immensely practical, cold, remote, cut off place.

She attempted to bridge the gap between our minds and our everyday lives; the townspeople were unable to appreciate such a gesture.

pedln-  I've been there too.  As a recent divorcee in the early 70's I tried to get credit in my own name and was refused by all of the major credit card companies.  This was before the laws were changed.  Disheartened, I went to the manager of the local bank, explained that I was always the one that fulfilled the financial obligations and that I was in dire need of a 90 day note to get myself back in good standing.  My husband had abscounded with cards, $$, etc.  I pled my case and much to my surprise, he listened and extended me a 90 day credit.  I paid it off in 45 days and have never had a problem since.  I comisserate with Florence but she needed a bit more moxy.  It sure was a little hairy to start alone, broke and stubborn in those days, as well.

PS Betty, love those thought provoking questions or new twists you put out for us to jaw on in all the discussions. thanks.

Hi Ine, sorry I was not on board the welcome wagon sooner, things have been a bit out of kilter here.

Sarah- when does Blue Flower begin, I will be travelling but hope to get my laptop to work and am able to access the site.

Discussion of The Blue Flower begins this Sunday, June 3.

Sarah, how I love your phrase that Florence was "a spirit from another place." That almost puts the saga of her book shop into the closest thing to a nut shell as possible. She did not understand the town and they did not understand her. Bridging that gap and the gap between their minds and everyday life, (again your phrase) was not possible.

I'm not at all sure she learned anything about herself or that she would change anything. Perhaps she left in search of a place that may appreciate her sensibilities, Fitzgerald doesn't tell us where she is going. It's clear in her mind that Hardborough isn't the place for her. Because she didn't seem to have any inclination to change, I don't think any endeavor in that town for her would have been successful. She would still be Florence and Hardborough would still be the cold and uninviting place it was. Oh, look at the name, Hardborough, that it was!

I think I've got - yes she's got it - The Rain... - I've been taking a philosophy class and just now we are studying Existentialism with Professor Robert Solomon. Today he said some stuff that was Florence all over - I can see we have been dancing around the theme but we had not put it together -

OK this is how it goes - when we speak of quality of life and success we are thinking of moral judgment, moral significance, moral guilt. (We ought to do... not enough...) We expect a world that is rational so that we may anticipate consequences, adhere to standards and values. Rationality that has a social dimension.

We expect a rational world to be about justice. We hook into this justice by determining what we consider "good" and "evil," or "bad." We expect repentance from those who we think should feel quilt for the evil acts. We want the good to be rewarded and the evil to be punished.

We even go so far as to suggest that innocence is being unaware of good and evil. And that Social justice differentiates between "moral" guilt and "legal" guilt. When bad things happen to good people we see the world as tipsy turvey. When innocent children are killed or kill in war we try to justify the experience. When a murderer is morally guilty but successfully beat the legal system we are outraged because the murderer did not match our rational understanding of good, bad, justice, guild, retribution.

We no longer have a rational means to reflect on our life, choosing behavior and thoughts with anticipated consequences, adhering to standards and values agreed upon by society. Our experience does not match our reflections of living a good life, a life of quality.

We ask "why?" We become like children with our whys - as soon as we have the answer to one why, that answer suggests another why. Even making a choice in life, if pressured for why - we suggest it is because this or that will probably happen - and why do we want this or that - ultimately to be happy or find out who we are. Why do we want to be happy or find out who we are. The concept is there is no end to Why.

We also begin to accept that the universe is indifferent and reflecting on our lives, a 'turning in' on oneself is our mirroring back to ourselves the expected justice we desire. We are about a circle of living a better "good" life based on a richer understanding of the values and standards we as a people have labeled "good."

Now the punch line - Life is really not about quality but about quantity. That to continue on our Why path will be a path without end. To live based on an expected sense of justice is not accepting that the universe is indifferent. And to top to off we have Myth of Sisyphus!

Sisyphus rolled that rock up the hill all his life. He learned where each rut and pebble was on the hill. He became aware of the surface and weight, the size of the rock. He learned well the path, the rock and everything that was in his immediate vision. His life seemed absurd as he lived it only rolling the boulder up the hill and the weight of it forced it to roll back down when it reached the top of the hill.

His moral is not to reflect but commit and throw yourself into your labor. Have a passion for life. That there is nothing left to live for except life. We want an answer that God is happiness and just, but the meaning of life is to be wholly engaged in your life, tasting each experience. If we try to look at life objectively it is like looking at a man in a soundproof telephone booth that appears to be yelling. We do not know why he is yelling and so we become indifferent to his problem. Accept there is no way to influence the indifference of the world with a chain of justification as it is called in philosophy. It only matters that we live. And like Sisyphus most of us will live a life of repetition maybe on a change of hill.

Several of us have shared how limiting life was for women in the 1950s, 60s, right up to the 80s. Well Florence goes from being a wife of many years to a town that is equally as indifferent to her desire for justice and fair play. The town is called "Hard"borough and you get the impression that Florence's life before widowhood was not a bed of roses but equaly as hard. Her "hill."

We want her to succeed so that she will fit our perception of justice, good versus bad and in spite of her innocents in business we want that to be a virtue.

I think the book is making a social statement that the "HILL" for women during this time in history was a repetition of caring and nurturing the flame of reflection expecting, with little success, from a society that was indifferent, support for a women placing her rock on the top of her hill. That the weight of women's desire for success was too heavy so that women were doomed to a life of learning how to avoid as many chuck holes as possible and to take solice in the small view of her world, taking in the details within her immediate surrounding, rolling her rock up the path hoping to veer and nudge her rock onto new paths, only to have it roll back down so that each new baby, each year, each season, each day, we labored anew along repetitive paths.

Women lived their live with passion as we threw ourselves into keeping a home, as our Florence. After she did her job burying herself till she didn't know who she was, into her work as a wife then, she throws herself into the Bookstore.

The beautiful bookmarks were probably no different than most women wanting the small pretties that filled a house making it a home. No purpose for being other than they were pretty, just like the cute salt and pepper shakers or the doily hand crocheted or the lovely table setting for the holidays. That with few exceptions, women lived with few choice and up the well worn path we labored, with small views, only to start all over each day, no different than Sisyphus.

House cleaning especially was just like that wasn't it. But each Spring we shushed the children out of the house, rolled up our sleaves and scrubbed everything, starched the curtains and waxed the floors, mended the pillow cases, and counted the sox. Each year with passion we shopped and sewed and wrappd and read the age old stories and sang with gusto the same hymns that our grandparents sang. We passed on the traditions to our children with all the excitment of Oscar night.

Interesting is that Fitzgerald's book was portraying 1959 and Camus wrote the novel The Stranger in 1946. This theises is the theme of The Stranger and also, the theises Of Kafka's The Trail and The Castle; as well as, Melville'sBilly Budd, Sailor All these books, including Fitzgerald's Bookshop are about "heros for the truth." And that we the readers impose our judgement as to what is or is not justice, where as, the hero doesn't think about the meaning of what happens. We want these stories to support our sense of logic.

Sarah and Pat, so do you think different behavior from Florence would have changed the forces who were determined to get her out of Old House? Do you think she's semi-responsible for their actions as well as her own?

I would have wished for Florence a good support system, or at least a neutral playing field, neither of which she had.

I was thinking about our mentioning in other book discussions how our own life experiences color our reading/perceptions. My biases regarding this book, that I'm aware of (we all have them) are: (1) knowledge and interest in women's issues, (2) a certain blindness and irritation about listing what women do wrong, (3) a reluctance to bring up or label something "gender" or "women's" issues, so I over- or under explain my view, always fearing that others think...she always does this.

Context, always seeing something in context, is my strongest bias. It's how I approach almost everything. I cannot think of Florence's weaknesses/strengths without seeing them within the larger context of 1959 and the actions of other villagers.

So, as Barbara writes of existential theory as a way to view Florence (I loved that!), the theory that fits how I think would be some mixture of Gestalt (looking at the whole, as in context) and Psychosocial...looking at the social culture/context. At the beginning of the book, the village's loss of bridges, then how Florence was treated at the bank...these are the social context kinds of things that would catch my attention.

betty

Betty - ultimately, no, I don't think Florence could have done things differently, but I've certainly been all over the map as I've come through this discussion. I come down finally to the idea that she was not meant for their world, nor they for hers, and that there was nothing she could have - or should have - learned from this experience. You cannot squeeze blood from a turnip.

She was in the same Catch-22 rut as were working class kids such as Christine, as Mrs. Gipping pointed out as she talked to Florence at the end of the book: "'I don't want you to think that anything's being held against you,' said Mrs. Gipping. 'That's what I principally came to say. We none of us believe that Christine would have got her eleven plus, even if she hadn't worked here after school. More than that, it may turn out to be an advantage. Experience must count. The school-leavers all say, they won't take us without experience, but how do we set about getting it?' "

That is, I don't think anyone ever expected Florence to succeed. Her destiny was predetermined for her by the context - of 1959, of a woman alone trying to make a go of it in Hardborough, of a town in which something as beautiful as those Chinese bookmarks would never be appreciated. Florence's error was in not understanding this from the outset.

You're right, Barbara, I think, that "The beautiful bookmarks were probably no different than most women wanting the small pretties that filled a house making it a home. No purpose for being other than they were pretty, just like the cute salt and pepper shakers or the doily hand crocheted or the lovely table setting for the holidays. That with few exceptions, women lived with few choice and up the well worn path we labored, with small views, only to start all over each day, no different than Sisyphus."

As you put it, Pat, "She did not understand the town and they did not understand her. Bridging that gap and the gap between their minds and everyday life. . . was not possible."

The one additional thing I'd say is that it helps in reading this book to simply open it up to just about any page and just read a few passages. Every one of them has significance standing alone. That's the beauty of Fitzgerald's writing, I think.

Oh, I would love to know if Fitzgerald had heard of a town that did this to a bookshop owner, or of a town that was shrinking and the bookshop was the first to go.

A romantic notion would be that she's saying something about reading books, staying healthy. Of what happens to a town, or an individual, who stops growing? The Rapper as death of the intellect, tempting/frightening us away from, what, new ideas?

Yes, yes, that sounds just right, Sarah, that she was not meant for them nor them for her. I admire her for trying, though.

Hehehe I just thought of an off the wall concept here - Sarah taking your thought that Florence "was not meant for their world, nor they for hers, and that there was nothing she could have - or should have - learned from this experience. You cannot squeeze blood from a turnip." My thoughts first went to - did Florence make any difference in the lives of those in the village? Did Christine experience or benefit or learn anything by her association with Florence? I really do not think so.

About the only difference I can see is that she activated Mr. Brundish into reading and socializing as well as standing up to the powers that be in Hardborough supporting someone new to the village who is willing to bring new ideas to the village. (sidenote - interesting he said on p. 82 "They won't understand it, but that is all to the good. Understanding makes the mind lazy.")

Also Florence provided Mrs. Gamart with a cause to flex her power muscles and urge her followers to join her in war. Florence in her red dress was like the banner held high of the opposing army as she entered the battlefield.

But to my thought - I'm thinking that if something, even something new like some new labor saving devise, is going to benefit an area, someone in the area would arise and makes this new whatever available. They already have a report and knowledge of the folks that will be the potential customers. In their own time each borough, community, culture will adapt those thoughts and things as they see they will benefit them. That in reality Florence was trying to impose her value of owning books onto a community that did not see this as valuable or beneficial. Evidently it wasn't the reading of books that they rejected (the Library) it was taking their money that represented their labor, taking the value of their work and using that value as the means to own a book. For them the exchange was not where their values lay. In addition Florence disrupted the flow of power in the borough.

The kicker to me is, how often in history we have sent in missionaries or others seeing value where the locals did not and created a warlike atmosphere changing all those that either willing or were subjecated and forced to suspend their unwilling nature to the new idea that was ultimately about supporting the desires or needs of the outsider.

Florence after all was an outsider with her own need. She wanted an opportunity to find out who she was. It was almost like this village saying to her, go find out who you are on your own turf, do not use us as your lab.

And Florence was an outsider. As a widow she had a different place in society. Her friends back where she was a housewife were probably either widowed as she was or still attending their established and traditional roles as Mrs. housewife. These were not folks wanting to shake their status quo and would no more support Florence opening a Bookshop then the folks in Hardborough.

Florence was like a Columbus or De Gamma or Singleton, any number of explorers looking for more, risking life and limb in order to satisfy their curiosity and find more. Most of them upon completion of their adventure end up losing the pleasures of a continued rich and resourceful life.

We still have cultures so tied to their traditions that as much as the west has tried to influence them it has taken hundreds of years with little progress. We still have religious groups caught in time, wearing their black broad brimmed hats and tight little white bonnets. We still have a whole continent being forced to change its behavior because of a killer decease and we still have many indigenous people desiring to live life as their ancestors without the changes imposed on them by the more powerful outsiders.

This reminds me of living in Kentucky when the Federal Government decided to aid Appalachia with government surplus. One of the products delivered was butter. This is where an outsider has no clue to the people. They had never used butter and so, the people melted it down to make candles and soap. What was forgotten was the industrial revolution never hit the mountains of Appalachia, bringing with it the conveniences and a way of life most people in this country take for granted.

And so we can see Florence as a couragous woman bringing new ideas or as an adventurer with her own agenda or as a butinski trying to change the community.

Well said, Barbara! All of your recent posts very well thought out and expressed, and very apropos. Betty's and Sarah's, too.

The village was afraid of change, but seemingly not of the changes of death, decay, failure. These were not new to them. So it was only the change of new and different that threatened them.

They expected BOTH the child and the woman to fail. The prophecies that proved themselves.

Terribly depressing.

Wonderful post, Barbara!!

I agree, Barbara; your post was a wonderful summing up of The Bookshop.

I said we'd segue today into the discussion of the second book, The Blue Flower, so let's do it!

This book couldn't be more different in setting, characters and period, and yet there is some of the same feeling in the writing, I think.

We open on a day in the life of Friedrich von Hardenberg (1772-1801) before he became famous under the name Novalis. I suspect at least one of you will have lots to tell us about Novalis, but it's interesting that Fitzgerald chose to focus on that time in Fritz's life before he became famous.

It is wash day (a once a year event) at the (temporary) family home in Weissenfels (the true home and lands are in Oberwiederstadt), and Jacob Dietmahler, a school chum of Fritz's, is there for a visit. The house is the largest but two in Weissenfels (this is reminiscent of The Bookshop I think, in that The Old House was the oldest but one - Brundish's Holt House - in Hardborough. Fitzgerald seems to like "almosts.")

The family is not rich: the fact that they wash only once a year "might not mean wealth, in fact [Jacob] knew that in this case it didn't, but it was certainly an indication of long standing. A numerous family, also."

We meet several of that family - Fritz himself, of course, and a number of his brothers and sisters. There is the fascinating the Bernhard, "an angel, . . . fair as wheat." There is "plain motherly Charlotte, the eldest, pale, wide-eyed Fritz, stumpy little Erasmus, easy-going Karl, open-hearted Sidonie, painstaking Anton," and then "the blonde Bernhard."

Fritz's father is "unexpectedly a small stout man," the "Director of the Salt Mining Adminstration of Saxony." (salt mines?? Isn't going "back to the salt mines" the worst possible thing one can say about one's job?) He is a deeply religious man who worships with the Moravian Brethren, "for whom every soul is either dead, awakened, or converted," and plans to send his eldest children to the Brethren at Neudietendorf when the time comes for their education.

The Freifrau von Hardenberg, "seeming of less substance even than the shadows," first meets Jacob and "look[s] at him with what seemed to be a gleam of terror, a hare's wild look," at the prospect of Jacob's staying a few days with the family (unless this is the look she always possesses).

Jacob and Fritz studied philosophy at Jena, "a place," according to Sidonie, "where Fritz and Asmus wasted money, caught lice, and listened to nonsense from philosophers." Both Fritz and Jacob are wont to burst spontaneously - and sophmorically - into philosophical jargon: As Jacob comments on the number of items hung out on wash day "So many things?," he shouts suddenly "There is no such concept as a thing in itself!"

Fritz retorts "Gentlemen! Look at the washbasket! Let your thought be the washbasket! Have you thought the washbasket? Now then, gentlemen, let your thought be on that that thought the washbasket!"

What are your initial thoughts about this fascinating family, the somewhat shabby setting, Fritz, Jacob, Fritz's parents, and the many siblings?

We learn that Fitzgerald truly does see red garments as revolutionary (recall the red dress Florence wore to the party at the Stead in The Bookshop). When the Bernhard has an unfortunate incident at the barges down at the river (which we'll discuss presently), he loses his red hat - his Mutze - "the only thing [the Bernhard] had possessed which indicated his revolutionary sympathies." "In a republic," says the Bernhard, "there would be no possessions."

Thoughts on this introductory material?

sorry but just got this computer to work- i know we are on blue flower- yeah!!!! i preferred that book but did want to backtrack a moment- florence changing the town? i think she did enact change- was it permanent- that requires another book, but each of her actions had an effect, whether we liked it or it "fit" a moral expectation- perhaps not, but Lolita, the fact of the bookstore, the fact of the bookmarks, etc. each single element was new to this town.

interesting how in the blue flower there is a "picture" of people though set in another time and place, who appear not so far removed from the folk at Hardborough, though something about this read suggested to me we might have paired the book with a work from Molierre- one of those "medical farces".

Barbara, way back post about the repetition of life reminds me that life is the living, not necessarily the result-thanks.

YiLi, I liked your thought about Florence, the fact of her and each thing she did, had an effect. Christine might be one whose association with Florence could produce an effect....later, down the road. The kind of effect that teachers have but never see. Lovely thought. (Sorry for backtracking.)

My first impression of 'the washday' was one of disbelief. Wash only Once a Year? However, in those days people didn't change their clothes daily - to say the least - neither did we during WW ll in Holland. I love the siblings bantering with warmth and camaraderie, and am intriqued with the philosophical remarks of Jacob and Fritz ('there is no such concept of a thing in itself', and: 'let your thought be on THAT that thought the washbasket'). Those remarks strike me as modern again, but I have never studied philosophy. My heart went out to Auguste, 'seeming of less subtance even than the shadows', the woman who lost her fragile identity by becoming Freifrau von Hardenberg. Immediately the great parting words of Barbara, Betty, Sarah and others about 'The Bookshop' come to mind. What about the lot of this woman? All in all - I read the chapter two weeks ago, and am in awe with Penelope Fitzgerald's way of making the reader remember her scenes. She is a very good writer. Ine

glad you brought up washday Ine- i was thinking how life has been so filled with traditions and ritual- things like wash day becoming an event- i am remembering all kinds of novels filled with the importance of hanging out rugs, washing walls, sweeping dirt floors etc- these massive events, some requiring community involvement- markers of one's existence if not x's on calendars creating a sense of a filled life.

wonder how much of that we've lost- first we translated in holiday celebrations where the celebration became achore or a cause for family or community disharmony-then the holiday became a commercial event- but then perhaps modern life is now filled with other marks...?

It bothered me that on page 3 Sidonie says: "Mother, I want you to entrust me with a little money ........."

and then on page 21 our author says of Sidonie's mother: ".... the Freifrau had no spending allowance of her own and had never been into a shop ......"

Do these sort of details ever bother anyone else? Am I too much the perfectionist?

The writing here is outstanding. I find myself, as usual, so thankful I live NOW!

marypage i;d like to belive if we'd lived then... well we'd have been just as outspoken and made changes sooner? yathink...or are we back into that ongoing question about individual characters developing only within the context of the explicit social norms....

It's just me Pat Swanson wanting to be a bit more low key...seeing my name in big print startled me sometimes! Hope this does not cause confusion for anyone. Wash Day was amazing. Once a year. Being of a practical nature, I wonder where they kept a year's worth of dirty laundry. Or clean laundry for that matter, it's a lot of fabric no matter what. Jacob states that he has eighty-nine shirts only. It does make one think about how women's days were once defined by Monday as wash day, Tuesday as ironing, Wednesday perhaps baking day. Those rituals of women's lives that you speak of YiLi Lin. MaryPage, I did not catch the inconsistency you mention. I was busy trying to keep names, nicknames and names of places straight. Was anyone else challenged by this? Penelope Fitzgerald has us off and running again with her spare, excellent writing that says much between those lines.

I'm on the fly but had to add a personal note - back in 1952 when I married the wedding photos were chosen at the photographers home. We walked in to poles hanging from every ceiling and doorway, some rooms had high ceilings and there were poles three levels off the floor, all filled with sheets, tablecloths, cotton dresses, shirts you name it. We ducked under freshly ironed laundry to a small table where the negatives were approved.

It seemed that every year for a week two women came to the house, and along with the wife they did the laundry for a year. With my mouth slightly ajar I asked what if you ran out of aprons (we wore them as house dreesses back then) The answer was the wife simply went out and bought one or more. I didn't know when to quit asking questions even as a young adult. If the children ran out of clean they simply wore something that was on the bottom of the heap. I learned that they believed this was the most cost effective way to do things. Never thought to ask where it was all stored - I can hardly imagine they lived in a giant closet with everything hanging like that till the supply of clean ran low.

Why do you think Fitzgerald chose to introduce us to Fritz and his family on washday, ine, YiLi, Paige (Pat) and Barbara? The image of washday is a potent one - perhaps just as potent as the heron and eel image Fitzgerald began with in The Bookshop. There is the idea of new beginnings, washing away the year's troubles; of exposing one's underthings/private things to the world; of family ritual; of the largeness of the family; and (albeit not in this family's case, Jacob tells us) of the display of wealth and possession.

And what an odd first sentence, with its double negative and the introduction of Jacob as a fool: "Jacob Dietmahler was not such a fool that he could not see that they had arrived at his friend's home on the washday." Jacob feels he is intruding on the family's private business: "Here I am, a stranger to your honoured family, knee deep in your smallclothes." And " 'Here among the table-linen, I am disturbed by Fritz Hardenberg's young sister,' thought Dietmahler. 'This is the sort of thing I meant to avoid.' " And "They should not have arrived anywhere, certainly not at this great house, the largest but two in Weissenfels, at such a time."

So there is a sense of having arrived at an inopportune time, of having too close a peek at the family's intimacies, of intrusion. Why?

MARY PAGE, (the proofreader/editor - was that your job too?) Glad to know you're there, I never noticed the discrepancy in the two statements about the lack of money of Auguste. It reminds me of my mother who had a household allowance that was very meagre, and she always had to ask for spending money, it's a perfect way of male control. I would suggest that the situation was the same in the Hardenberg household, and Sidonie asked for money from Auguste's allowance.

YILI LIN, If we'd lived at the end of the 18th century, would we have made changes sooner? I'm not sure about myself, but it seems to me that outspoken Sidonie learned from her mother's experiences, and has already made many changes within herself. That's the way I learned too. BARBARA - P l e a s e, tell me about the ring. Are you from Austin, Texas? ine (schepers) SARAH, you and I must have posted at the same time, and I'm going to take some time to think about your questions.

Sarah, I think she started with the wash day to give us a jolt. Throw cold water on us. Give us a case of culture shivers.

I know that, in touring old homes here in the States and elsewhere, I have usually been most taken with tiny details that had great shock value to my learning experience. I have always attributed this to my being female, and most often have not discussed it with anyone else. A couple of years ago, however, I was touring KENMORE, in Fredericksburg, Virginia, and the docent was asked by another tourist where the bathrooms were; this after we had seen everything. The docent not only pointed out there were none, but went on to say that in the day when the place was built for George Washington's only sibling, his sister, by her husband, people only bathed about ONCE A YEAR! That is the sort of detail that shocks and sticks; at least with me.

So I truly feel our author has the same sensibilities, and wanted to begin with this type of culture shock opening.

To answer your other question, Sarah, Jacob's thought about "intruding" may have revealed something about his principles, maybe specifically about intrusion. It is possibly how he would feel if someone "intruded" a private tradition of his. This may signal that he has a certain way of thinking about or doing things. (For a whole community, this would be a signal about culture.)

Perhaps she wished us to become acquainted with his roots (Hardenberg's family) before he became the renown Novalis. Jacob witnessed the dingy linens, grave-looking servants and made his own judgement of the family's "long standing wealth."

Sarah,

would that I could have joined the discussion of The Bookshop; but as it was I was hardly able to read the posts on a regular basis. I was preparing for a family celebration taking place this week and my heads spins.

As soon as everything is back to "normal", whatever that is, I will join this lively discussion.

A very belated welcome to a new participant, ine.

Sarah, in response to your question about why Fitzgerald introduces us to Fritz and family on wash day, could it be to immediately throw us into a huge event full of confusion, great amounts of billowing clothes on lines, dirty clothes on floor, lots of people and even barking dogs? A scene almost larger than life. As MaryPage says she gives us a jolt. There are some basic things learned, such as the family is not one of wealth, we are introduced to family members and get a glimpse of Fritz as a philosopher. However, I think wash day is the focus, a very strong visual, pulls the reader right in. It certainly got my attention!

ine - Yes, Austin Texas - the quote is from Tolkin's trilogy The Lord of the Rings although come to think of it, it may be from the Hobbit Whichever I love the concept - like carrying forth the torch, or in this case the ring, of truth and learning and whatever we value. And although I'm willing to carry it forth, the path is not clearly marked and also, I may not always be up to the challenge.

I know I bought this book - I bought both books at the same time and for the life of me I cannot remember where I put it - I tore into this house yesterday - of course I put it someplace safe - right - and that safe place is not where I typically put books - of course - and so it will take some Ginko and Gato Kola to air out my brain so that I can remember where I put the book! Shesh! As my mother would say, if my head wasn't attached it would come up missing.

You're right, Paige and MaryPage, that Fitzgerald does a wonderful job of giving us a jolt with the first image of wash day. Such a routine thing, doing the wash, and yet, in this case, so striking - its infrequency, the quantity of things, the mountains of dingy clothes, the variety of items and what they tell us about who occupies the family.

Another jolt that comes early in the novel is the experience the Bernhard (why the "the" before his name?) has down at the Saale river (an event which foreshadows what comes later). Here we are in the midst of the routine, a child wanders off, and all seems fairly benign. The Bernhard has rifled through Jacob's valise - not so surprising an act for a child - and miss law and order (Sidonie) scolds him - again, all very routine. The Bernhard exclaims petulantly, "I'm sick of this house," and "snatch[es] himself away." Fritz goes to find his brother, unworried: "Everyone in Weissenfels knew that young Berhard would never drown, because he was a water-rat." And yet, "[f]or the first time (in his life??), Fritz felt afraid. All of a sudden, things become dire, and Fritz sees Bernhard, hanging from a boat "trapped and squeezed. A pitiful cough and a burst of tears and blood (egad!) were forced out of him like air out of a balloon." " 'Let me go, let me die!', wheezed the Bernhard."

All very scary - a burst of blood? This sounds very serious. And yet, the Bernhard is worried about his red cap - his Mutze.

Why the juxtaposition of the ordinary with the extraordinary in this way? We have a day in the life opening, and yet this terrible thing happens, and life, once again, goes on in a very normal way. Bernhard wants to "wave at the people" as Fritz carries him home.

There is a member of our family, one of my daughters, who has had the "the" in front of her name for some years now. Everyone says things like "go ask the Debster" or "I think we're all going to the Debster's." How did this happen? Well, my son started it years ago. Why do we all adopt it? I think because she is, without exception in this large, extended family, everyone's favorite. The favorite grandchild (though they are all dead now), the favorite child of both real and step parents, the favorite sister of both full and half siblings, the favorite aunt of all nieces and nephews, even those just by marriage and not blood!

This was a most awfully long time ago, but I like to think The Bernhard got his "the" because HE was everyone's favorite. I rather think he was.

Sarah, Yes The Bernard was everyone's favorite, and, among the siblings, Fritz seemed to be the one who was most 'respected', if that's the word. The children were mostly on their own, as their parents were not capable of guiding them much - the mother too overwhelmed, and the father hiding behind his religion. Therefore the siblings were delightfully outspoken and honest. Did Fitagerald jusxtapose the 'ordinary', like wasday, and also Jacob's choice of study of the rational and intellectual (medicine) with the 'extra ordinary' of Fritz's choice of philosophy, his fascination with ideas and concepts and also with the outrageous siblings? The Bernard often used Fritz' philosophy in his arguments, like his partingshot in Chapter 4: '...In a republic there would be no possessions...' Perhaps the double negative in the first sentence has to do with that juxtaposition: '...Jacob Dietmahler was not such a fool...' - Only a little?) Somewhere along my line of thinking I got off track, help!

[Berbara - thanks for explaining the quote, I like it the way you explained it. Glad to meet you, Traude!] ine

I wonder if the "the" is an ambitious translation of the definitive in the German Language, similar to how we might define through naming- Jams/Jimmy- Susan/Susie these are examples of the diminutive, and I am not sure that "the" is held in that regard- especially for a boy child. But German is a language heavily dependent on gender where the nouns govern the structure - and as we know language structure often governs how we think.

I also think there is an intimacy to wash day that is an appropriate opening as the novel unfolds. Sharing that first scene sets is a good backdrop for intimacies that follow.

I too, think The Bernhard was everyone's favorite, he is even referred to as an angel. His blondness appears to be a favorable trait also, with the term "fair as wheat." It's possible that his being the baby of the family for awhile, before Amelie and Christoph were born, had to do with his specialness.

When I had my third son, my two others were nine and five. I brought this baby home on Christmas day from the hospital and everyone considered him a gift for a long time. We all played with him, amused him and were amused by him. He was a sweet and gentle child and we all had pet names for him, not The Christopher though.

Has a reading schedule been set for The Blue Flower ?

I am anxious not to comment beyond the assigned portions, for that has been my occasional sin in the past.

Thank you

I am thinking about Fitzgerald using the unusual washday/laundry scene to open her book. This must be an additional way her writing is "spare," as so many critics have written, in that she let the scene speak for itself, generally. She didn't spell out its significance. In my view, that takes guts!

Also, let me ask if anyone else sees this opening as different from the usual reliance on prose, the actual words, to catch a reader's interest. It just seems different than the "dark and stormy night" type of writing. Her specific words don't announce, "This is important, wake up!!" I know Fitzgerald had an unusual first sentence, but it's the washday subject that is the "opening," isn't it? (In case I'm not making a sufficient distinction, it would be the difference between stating that a bloody fight among the 5 teenagers happened and writing out the gory details.) Maybe I'm stretching this too far, but I'm trying to watch for her celebrated spareness and general difference in style.

Oh...one other thought on Sarah's washday question....my first reaction included the idea of foreign. It sounded foreign to me, country-wise and time-wise. So, I instantly felt I was in unknown territory. I couldn't apply any common place memory or experience of doing laundry, or any historical knowledge. That reaction from me most often results in heightened interest, as it did here.

-------------------------------------------

Is anyone else having trouble letting go of The Bookshop, or are Fitzgerald's books known to haunt? Sarah, would it be possible to ask for (more) final comments on Bookshop as we are ending Blue Flower? I don't know that I'll have any, but for the moment, the book is on my mind.

betty

Well, talk about being shocked at the thought of once a year laundering! Last night I read Chapter 9, An Incident in Student Life. Oh, horrible!

I like that the chapters are very short, as my time is also. So I have assigned myself 1 chapter per night, right before turning out the light.

I think this is why washing was done once a year! This is the washday instructions written for a new housewife in 1819. It appears in the history of Newton County Missouri. Washday was generally Monday. The original spelling is shown.

1. Bild (build) fire in backyard to het (heat) kettle of rain water.

2. Set tubs so smoke won't blow in eyes if wind is pert.

3. Shave one hole (whole) cake lie sope (lye soap) in bilin (boiling) water.

4. Sort things. Make 3 piles. 1 pile white, 1 pile cullord, (colored) 1 pile werk (work) britches and rags.

5. Stur (stir) flour in cold water to smooth, then thin down with bilin (boiling) water.

6. Rub dirty spots on board, scrub hard, then bile(boil). Rub cullord (colored) but

don't bile (boil)- just rench (rinse) and starch.

7. Take white things out of kettle with broomstick handel (handle), then rench, (rinse)

blew (blue) and starch.

8. Spred tee (tea) towels on grass.

9. Hang old rags on fence.

10. Pore rench (rinse) water in flower bed.

11. Scrub porch with hot sopy (soapy) water.

12. Turn tubs upside down.

13. Go put on cleen (clean) dress - smooth hair with side combs - brew cup

of tee (tea)- set and rest and rock a spell and count blessings.

Ine says "The Bernard was everyone's favorite, and, among the siblings, Fritz seemed to be the one who was most 'respected', if that's the word. The children were mostly on their own, as their parents were not capable of guiding them much - the mother too overwhelmed, and the father hiding behind his religion. Therefore the siblings were delightfully outspoken and honest. "

This is a great point - and it hadn't occurred to me until you said it just how "on their own" these children are. It's odd that Fitzgerald brings us to the bosom of the family - the home, the washday - and yet there really IS no bosom, is there?

The Freifrau is so terribly unhappy - timorous, although fertile; sickly, although she outlived all but one of her eleven children; "always looking for someone to whom to apologize." She wants her children with her - or so it seems - and begs to be allowed to teach Fritz herself (even if unqualified to teach him anything but "a little music.") She hates the "chilly solitutde and terribly out-of-date household arrangements" of Oberwiederstadt. As MaryPage pointed out, she has no spending allowance of her own and - gasp - "had never been into a shop, indeed rarely left the house except on Sundays. . . ." She feels trapped between the arguments of her husband and her brother, August von Boltzig "like a powder of thinly-ground meal between the mill-stones." She has night fears and is a poor sleeper.

The Freiherr seems to send the children away at the earliest possible opportunity - to the Herrnhut (the "centre where fifty years earlier the Moravians, refugees from persecution, had been allowed to settle down in peace," "with wind instruments instead of bells to summon the children to their classes"; a place of "total obedience," where the children swept the floors, tended the animals and made the hay), to his older brother Wilhelm's home, to "as many universities as possible." He doesn't even know his own son's age, thinking Fritz to be fifteen or sixteen when in fact he's nearly seventeen.

At the same time, the Hardenbergs do not socialize with their neighbors - neither inviting them in nor accepting their invitations, "knowing that this might lead to worldliness."

Despite all the life in these children, theirs seems a very sad home.

But we do read in the beginning sentences that Dietmahler's own mother supervised the washing THREE times a year.

I still don't know whether we are bound to adhere to a reading schedule.

And I agree with MaryPage as to the discrepancy concerning the allowance. Moreover, in my large-print library copy there are other inconsistencies/misspellings, which I find mildly irritating. I won't cite these instances now lest I jump ahead prematurely.

The somewhat peculiar, old-fashioned style is intended, I believe, to replicate the kind of German presumably spoken at that time. The author makes no concessions to those not familiar with German geography or history, and the enumeration of the rivers, towns and titles could well be distracting, perhaps discouraging to some. No, I am not speaking for myself; German is my native tongue.

Betty is so right that Fitzgerald has the courage simply to tell a story through events, rather than spelling everything out. She says so little yet conveys so much. I had an instant picture in my mind not only of the sight of the house on washday, but the incident of the Bernhard's down at the river. What is this style of writing - and how does she do it? It's fascinating. She skips from quick action to slowness, from a moment in time to years of history and life events. It's very odd, and yet it works. This must be why The Bookshop sticks with us - I can still feel the chill of Hardborough, the greyness, the coldness and dampness of the bookshop and the people. She beautifully creates a sense of place and time.

No reading schedule EVER, Traude - read at your own pace always. As for discussion, with both of these books we've just discussed whatever comes up without a particular schedule this time. This is a departure for me but it seems to be working. The book is short, so this seems to make the most sense.

Good heavens Yili Lin and make a cup of te - shoot, after all that she probably still has to cook diner on the firelite stove. I remember reading how if we are here, we are the products of strong stuff - that our forfathers came through the Black Plague, war, an ocean crossing and for some of us that was by sail, and the women had wash days like you discribe as well as so many other hardships - whew - we shoud be celebrating our inherited strengths not wasting them sitting or what ever we do that is not living life to the fullest.

Finally found the book and so I start -

The additional questions you asked, Sarah, after mine, on Fitzgerald's writing style....just your way of phrasing the unique and somewhat odd method....prompted an a-ha. We've all known or heard of or read about that unusual person who can spin a tale, tell a story better than anyone, aloud, the way stories were told before the recent practice of writing them down. Isak Dinesen (Karen Blixen) told her famous stories to Denis Finchhatten, etc. So, I wonder if Fitzgerald has a "knack" for the original storytelling. A unique art different from learned "method." (I'm thinking beyond the obvious...that verbal stories most likely did not go on for the equivalent of 450 pages.)

The other thought is that a little information has a way of drawing in the listener/reader in a way that much information does not. One metaphorically leans forward to hear better. In that way, a reader is more involved, more responsible for filling in the blanks. A second way the reader may feel more involved comes from the implied nod to the reader's ability when explanations are held to a minimum.

Ok, on to Blue Flower.

betty

Sarah, I am so very glad and relieved to hear that there is no schedule.

This book, I believe, must be read more than once : straight through the first time, when the reader is literally gasping at the end and profoundly moved, though there is no pathos or false sentimentality in the narrative.

The depth and richness of the beautifully told story will become ever so much clearer the second time around.

Washdays were traumatic even in the 20th century. When I was growing up, every Monday was washday and a washerwoman was hired. Anything white was boiled in a huge kettle in the "Waschkueche" (washing kitchen) in the basement, the soapy brew stirred with a huge wooden spoon, eventually put through a "mangle" and spread out on the rear lawn to be bleached by the sun or, on sunless days, hung on the line. My mother usually had help with the ironing the next day. But I still remember those days as stressful and we were all on our best behavior on those days.

It is no coincidence that the authour would open the book with this particular event to introduce the reader to the period in which the story takes place.

The "intrusion" was a real one; Dietmahler had reason to be embarrassed. Invitations required parents' knowledge and consent, even into the 20th century (the concept of "casual" was yet unknown).

Though many members of the lower nobility like the Hardenbergs were impecunious, they held on tightly to their traditions and saw to it that marriages were arranged with "like" candidates. And titles are of the utmost importance. Even in my time, the 20th century, a doctor's wife was respectfully addressed as "Frau Doktor" (!)

There is so much more.

I'm on my second reading too, and fascinated by Fitzgerald. Traude, I'm glad you mentioned the lack of explanations about the location of the rivers and towns in the story, not to forget the titles of the characters. I felt the same way. In an interview Fitzgerald mentioned that '... It's just an insult to readers to explain everything....' So - I will have to go to the library and look for a German map to satisfy my curiosity. I was reading in Chapter 5 about Freiherr Hardenberg, and his 'profound religious conversion'. It occurred to me that Fritz's father was a 'dreamer' too at one time. He then worshipped with the Moravian Brethern and concentrated on 'moral grace'. He sent Fritz, not quite ten years old, to the Brethren at Neudietendorf, where Fritz perpetually asked questions, unwilling to receive answers. His father allowed him to go to University, and there he met Fichte. The students do a lot of 'fichtisieren', driving themselves mad', until Fritz discovers the fault in Fichte's system: 'There is no place in it for love....' Is that the moment he decides to project his own beliefs, thoughts and feelings upon the pursuit of that love?

ps I'm thankful I found the SeniorNet. All of you are to me like unique negatives being developed, getting clearer as we go along. I noticed that, some time back, you confided in your age; I like that. (I'm 73 years old, an 'ex-mom' of seven children, and very thankful I didn't live in the time of Auguste).

Well, Thank God there is SOMEONE in here older than I! I'm a youngster of 72.

Still in my first reading (although I skimmed the whole book first, as I always do, and have thoroughly read the ending), read chapters 12 & 13 last night. The opium use is interesting. Also, do you suppose the sense Fritz had of his own immortality was true? That is, do you suppose he really had it?

I rather expect it must have appeared thus in his diary, or our author would not have set it down so adamantly.

I enjoy reading literature that does not dwell on geography or over descrptives. I find myself more interested in the characters, what they say and what they do. When reading those books on the craft of writing they often suggest that author's spend a lot of time on surroundings, ornamenture etc. as these items will give the reader an insight into the character- perhaps, but i find in many books i sort of glance over these portions.

I am thinking especially after reading the last set of posts, that there is an important picture developing on religion and its sects and adherents lives. Didn't the Moravians emigrate and settle in North Carolina, bringing with them "oddities" in behavior and decor that set them apart from the other settlers? If I recall some references in American histories especially in the craft movement, there was a lot to be said about the role of children and the nature of children's education.

Barbara- wondering if your personal library or recollection can expound on that.

I think we have also stumbled on a plus for progress in diversity in modern america- we accept the Amish, Menonite, Mormon and other religious traditions out of the mainstream as part of the mosaic. I now see this family as a modern Amish set apart from the larger community perhaps by geography, urban sprawl or whatever, not unfriendly but hunkered down so to speak to hold on to traditions that have been historically sustaining.

The philosophers, religions and secret society groups (freemasons) mentioned are, ironically, just what the Brothers Karamazov folks have been discussing. For some excellent links on freemasons and others, check out the last 20-25 posts in that discussion....under Barbara's and Joan's names.

Has anyone heard a different cadence of speech? I'm wondering, Traude, if you or anyone else, can tie this to a German sound. There is also so much dry humor, or maybe it is Fitzgerald's economy that makes something sound dry. Fritz bursts in to speak to his father. "How fortunate that I am here," said the Big Cross (uncle Wilhelm) "just when my advice is most needed." That made me laugh, as well as so much from the Bernhard. "Can I wave at the people?" he wants to know just when Fritz puts him on his shoulders. This was said just after exclaiming, "Let me go, let me die!" when stuck between barges. Perfectly captures a child's instant mood reversal.

Exactly, Betty. You were fine-tuned, as usual.

Indeed, "sound" is imparted, and it has to do with a very DIFFERENT dialect of German- not altogether pleasant to the ear, (you will see what Sophie calls Fritz).

YiLi, I very much agree with you. But in this particular case it is impossible (I think) to understand the characters, or the book itself, without a general idea of the geography, at the very least, and the philosophy.

We do NOT have to delve into FICHTE ( 1762-1814) or SCHLEGEL (1767-1845), or GOETHE, one of the most illustrious German poets and man of letters (1749-1832) and revered as much as Shakespeare in Europe. But the "Professor Schiller" might have been explained perhaps a tiny bit better in the book : He was Friedrich von Schiller, 1759-1805, an eminent poet and playwright, an early Romanticist, NOT a philosopher.

In this case we really must look at the book in toto to see how it affects us. I believe it is a universal HUMAN story and speaks to us even now. It is too early to even consider why Fitzgerald wrote this highly imaginative story - with a perceptible undertone of irony - about the impetuous Fritz who became the famous Novalis.

In our time, the provinces (for lack of a better word) of Thuringia and Saxony were part of East Germany, separated from the west by the iron curtain frontier from 1945 to 1989, when people could not get to the west and travel only to other Russian-dominated countries like Czechoslovakia (since divided into the Czech Republic and Slovakia), Rumania, Hungary etc.

Great novel!

Just now trying to catch up on posts, etc. And read.

I think that we are introduced with all the intimate laundry flying thru the air because Ms F intended to give us intimacies of the characters thruout the story. And that is most certainly true. We find out about Fritz's mother for instance. And her emotional problems; not in detail, as is F's method.

If someone has already spoken this thought - I don't mean to repeat it - I am reading posts back at #211 so might not have seen it.

~Marj

MaryPage, I beat you! (age-wise, small victory, he?)

Why did Fitzgerald add Fritz's entree in his diary? Could it be that in that time period people were still closer to the 'natural world', and accepted death without fear? The Bernard, while hanging on with both hands on the gunwale, wheezed: 'Let me go, let me die!' When Fritz hauled him up he admonishes him: '... do you want to drown?' And the Bernard replies in part: ...You said once that death was not significant, but only a change in condition....', implying these were Fritz's thoughts. I felt that Fritz accepted this concept of immorality as real.

On p 71 Fritz meets Sophie for the first time. He questions her and her answers indicate that she's often in the world Fritz sometime calls 'higher' where people speak another language, as she tells Fritz "... at Gruningen we don't talk like this...". Her answers to Fritz's questions are quite revealing; it's as if, subconciously, she knows she will not live too long. I keep on thinking of Betty's remark in entree 224: ...One metaphorically leans forward to hear better...' And I wished I had better 'tools' to express myself, oh well, ine

Ine mentioned a quote by Fitzgerald: "It's just an insult to readers to explain everything. . ." and Betty notes that "One metaphorically leans forward to hear better. . . ."

Do you feel this spare style is a help or a hindrance to your reading? I certainly think it adds to our discussion - we fill in the gaps, provide details. Traude explains the use of the German language; Ine gets out her maps; we find information from the Brothers Karamazov discussion - all of that, in my view, enhances the discussion.

Do you think Fitzgerald cares if we know all of the true historical characters and events that form the backdrop of this novel? I always appreciate an author who expects me to have the same fabulous eduation as she has - AS Byatt does this too - but I must confess that my inferior American public school (really, public, not private school) education does not prepare me in many cases for the lessons these authors bring me. And yet I love their writing - and their expectations of me as a reader. I feel honored to be a part of their conversations, and I haven't found it hinders me if I don't know every last bit of history embedded in their stories.

Sarah,

Perhaps Penelope Fitzgerald did not think to "explain" because she presupposed rudimentary knowledge of European history and culture as commonly taught in even non-private schools.

Europeans have always been, and are, keenly aware of the linkage between their respective history, geography and culture-- island Britain, perhaps reluctantly, included. Students and adults have a good knowledge of, and are preoccupied with other parts of the world as well, and they now have concerns about the precious shared environment.

Now, I do not believe that we have to know all there is to know about the Moravian Brethren, for example, and even if we attempted it, we would run squarely into Pietism , for there were other intensely personal manifestations and more rigid interpretastions of the Lutheran faith beginning in the 17th century. As commendable as this research might be for the person undertaking it, it would, I believe, seriously detract from this book :

For this book is about a literary genius LONG BEFORE he was recognized as such - and about the forces that made him what he became. As for the literary scene of his day, it is helpful to know who is who among the (European) literary luminaries across the centuries - like Goethe, Dante Alighieri, Bocaccio and many, MANY others.

I think that, for a discussion of this book, we must concentrate on the major and minor protagonists, their background if necesssary, their actions and reactions, and attitudes, comparisons with our century, etc. All of this compared to our hero who - it turns out - might have been (ultimately) a fearful male who lacked the courage of his convictions.

Shall we compare the mothers, Fritz's and Sophie's, the fathers and their attitudes, and the sisters , his and hers. The development of the child fiancee and Fritz's.

We have yet to consider the blue flower --- so onward

Excellent points, Traude, especially this: "I think that, for a discussion of this book, we must concentrate on the major and minor protagonists, their background if necesssary, their actions and reactions, and attitudes, comparisons with our century, etc. All of this compared to our hero who - it turns out - might have been (ultimately) a fearful male who lacked the courage of his convictions."

I wondered how Fritz was influenced by his deeply religious and detached father, the Freiherr, as contrasted with the Freiherr's brother Wilhelm (the Big Cross), who said of him after he stayed with him in Lucklum while in his late teens,

"I am glad that Fritz has recovered himself and got back on to the straight path, from which I certainly shall never try to remove him again. My way of life here is pitched too high for his young head. He was much too spoiled, and saw too many strange new people, and it culd not be helped if a great many things were said at my table which were not helpful or salutary for him to know . . . ."

While with Wilhelm, Fritz (at least according to 14-year-old brother Erasmus), sat "every evening at dinner . . . while these important people amused themselves by giving [Fritz] too much to drink" and who talked about "nature-philosophy, galvanism, animal magnetism and freemasonry." (What a combination!!)

I wonder how Fritz's later life was affected by these two men, both seemingly occupying the extremes of their respective points of view. I am more and more convinced that men's (and women's) choices in life are deeply affected by the adults (and for men, especially the male adults) who surround them during adolescence.

By the way, welcome, MarjV - so glad to have you with us. You reminded me of another question with your post, "I think that we are introduced with all the intimate laundry flying thru the air because Ms F intended to give us intimacies of the characters thruout the story. And that is most certainly true. We find out about Fritz's mother for instance. And her emotional problems; not in detail, as is F's method. "

What is the influence of the emotionally distraught Freifrau on Fritz's later choices in life - both personal and professional?

In chapter 23 (I Can't Comprehend Her), I just fell in love with these words: "as relentless as piety."

A glimpse into thinking about the blue flower. And what the quest could mean. In Van Dyke's intro to his story collection.

The Blue Flower - Henry Van Dyke.

Sarah, I agree, the style is captivating, it adds exitement because, as you pointed out, the author expects us to know more, or to find out. Instead of being told every detail, we get actively involved, the opposite of viewing a TV show. Once in a while it's irratating though, because I'm sort of lazy; never mind.

The blue feather is an enigma. While reading the book, I thought of Vincent van Gogh who, also, experienced a 'transfiguration' and adored and married a prostitute. His father was a staunch Dutch protestant, and a dominant presence in his life.

I thought of the 'Little Prince' in the story by Saint Exupery, about the prince who came from a very small planet and had 'one red rose'. He loved her but he didn't want to possess her, and therefore had to leave her, learn about his own sense of self, and could return.

I just finished reading 'The Alchemist' by the Latin American writer Paul Coelho, about a shepherd boy who 'listened to his heart, goes on a journey, and finds out that the treasure he was looking for was all the time there, where he started from - in his own heart. These stories have one thing in common - the protagonists are on a quest to fulfill their own destiny.

Then I thought of Yang and Yin, and how the journey might be connected with the search, for Fritz and the others, for their own female self. I thought of that after reading Fritz's comments to himself in the Weissenfels churchyard: 'The universe, after all, is within us.'

Welcome MarjV !

Hello everyone, sorry to have fallen behind in my posting; the celebrations are over, the guests are gone and I promise to catch up.

MarjV and ine - you brought up good points. I like your references to The Little Prince, Paul Coelho's Alchemist, and Yin and Yang. I believe this is the kind of reflection that Fitzgerald herself would have welcomed and (if I dare speculate) meant to stimulate.

She presents the reader with facts, without pathos or false sentimentality; her descriptions are telling (sometimes with a hint of irony), but the reader is free to come to his/her own conclusions.

Perhaps it is too early, but I wonder about your reactions to the ending.

Ine, I too, was drawn to the quote "The universe, after all is within us." And the next line, "The way leads inwards, always inwards." Not only does it lead us to Yin and Yang but perhaps to the idea that we create our own reality? The way leading inwards, always inwards suggests we alone have the answers to our questions. Reminds me of many therapies where a therapist guides you to your own answers. Is it possible that we look for answers in people, places, belief systems, teachings, and writings when all the time we need to go inward?

The spare way in which Fitzgerald writes reminds me of a dance. She gives us a big scene (wash day) and then pulls back. Repeats this pattern until there is a rhythm to the story telling. She creates a tension as we lean forward to listen, as suggested here, and she pulls away. There is a contrast created in her writing in a dramatic way. This calls to mind the huge contrast in Fritz's life between being a poet and running a salt mine!

Dance! Yes, Paige, that is the rhythm. Very good!

Ine, I like your observations.

I recall a post, hopefully not too far back, that talks about our looking at a "then and now" in the characters and their actions. I think that is a wonderful prompt. I wonder how the world today, at least the modern western world, would look at a Fritz and his affection for a Sophie. I also find it interesting that whether as a fictional device or a manifestation of the universe within how TB was the ultimate resolution to the plot's tension.

This was the "romantic" period in German literature, the time Fitzgerald is writing about. LOVE was put on a pedestal.

They used to give their brides hair rings, too. I have one, or what is left of one, that belonged to a German great, great, great grandmother. I have the part that was gold and initialed, but it is only about a fourth of the total circumferance of the ring. The rest was braided hair; apparently dark, or it has become dark through the centuries, because I can see dark hair pressed between the gold portion that I possess.

Mary Page - What a wonderful treasure, that ring of your German great great grandmother! (By the way the words 'relentless as piety' also fascinated me - I thought Salem - but since I found out that it was Jollity that was as relentless as piety I've been on the lookout for more remarks in which laughter and jollity are mentioned. There are many.

MarjV - Where did you find that wonderful site with the text of the Blue Flower? (I'm an absolute zero when it comes to finding things on the web). It's priceless. I've only read the first part, comparing it to Fitzgerald's text (p62), and WOW, what a difference! Fitzgerald, no doubt, found this text during her research, and Fritz tells Karoline 'it's only just written'. In Van Dyke's text it's pure poetry, in Fitzgerald's not at all. Take the sentence: '... the clock on the wall ticked with a monotonous beat....' from 'our' text and compare it with Van Dyke's completed version: '... The clock on the wall ticked loudly and lazily, as if it had TIME TO SPARE....' Fitzgerald must have chosen the part of Novalis' life (the name Novalis meaning 'Clearer of Lands') when he was still unknown so she could instill in the text meaningful clues for the reader to pick out. It's like a jigsaw puzzle, a very difficult one. I have so many questions now, but let me be patient and start with one, (from chapter 36):

Dr Hofrat Ebhard had never had the chance to hear the opening of The Blue Flower '.. but if he had done so he could have said immediately what he thought it meant....' How would he know?

chapter 31, "I Could Not Paint Her", page 120.

Sophie's Dairy entry for Tuesday, September 11, 1795

She says her stepmother sent up coffee.

Sophie did not have a stepmother. She had a mother. A sister who ran the household. A stepfather. She did NOT have a stepmother!

Here is a site I have been reading at. Is it the same one already mentioned?

NOVALIS

MaryPage,

yes, the same error is in my large print copy also.

As I said before, there are other inconsistencies in the text and DIFFERENT spellings in the names of the SAME town and river.

In chapter 6, titled Uncle Wilhelm, the Freiherr's salary as appointed Director of the Salt Mines is given as 650 "THATER", an obvious misprint, for the word (and currency at the time) was THALER (which is linguistically related to 'dollar').

A bit disappointing; also irritating.

I just wonder if Fitzgerald used that entree in Sophie's diary to give us a hint of the relationship of Sophie and her mother. She seemed to identify a lot with her stepfather and 'laughed a lot' which he did too. I have a problem with the women characters in the book. They are less developed than the men are, and none of them seems to have substance. I found in the library THE KNOX BROTHERS, a a new edition of the book, corrected and reset, and published in the year 2000. Fitzgerald completed the revisions to this definitive edition a few months before her death. Her photograph shows a determined, and no-nonsense, intelligent woman. I was excited by this unexpected find, but didn't have time to finish it. (Especially since I'm trying to wade through the finished version of THE BLUE FLOWER, and scanning through HYMNS TO THE NIGHT, very romantic, and spiritual with its desire for peace and immortality)

The treatment of the women closest to the Knox Brothers is not developed either, and I wonder if that's me, or that others feel that way too.

Also - Traude - could you explain why I think 'Heinrich Heine' while reading HYMNS TO THE NIGHT? I was born in Holland and left for Canada when I was 23 years old. In highschool we read Heine, and I don't remember much of him any more, except that now he regularly pops in my mind. I always enjoyed the German language, and didn't mind to have to read 10 German books. Of course, we chose the thinnest of the bunch. About misspellings: Sophie called Fritz HardenBURCH in her diary once in a while, which no doubt is the German spelling. But why not consistently?

In the chapter THE WAY LEADS INWARDS, on page 126 of my book, Fritz sees "a young man" standing on an as yet unused gravesite in the churchyard cemetery.

He describes him as being as white and still as a memorial. He says he was "living", but not human!

Was he an albino, cast out from regular society and forced to live in a graveyard? A leper?

Or is this part of the metaphysical Fritz, who sees, as his friend the painter does, life in everything, even inanimate objects?

On Sophie writing Hardenburch for his last name; I think it was meant to show she was careless and didn't even really know his name, much less the spelling. To me, she does not seem very intelligent.

Some other comments....

Yi Li - I did enjoy reading the washday instructions. Glad I didn't live then.

Sarah, you mentioned the chill of Hardborough that stays with us. I fill a chill in this novel. And I was surprised at one point to be reading along and find it is hot weather and they are sweating.

Betty - I love your line: One metaphorically leans forward to hear better. Definitely been doing that with Blue Flower.

ine -- I found that Van Dyke site from typing Blue Flower into the google.com search engine. There were other kinds of links but that one I found fascinating.

I see the text of "Hymns to the Night" is on MaryPaige's Novalis link.

I think the boy in the graveyard was some type of societal outcast with whom he felt a spiritual oneness.

~Marj

Now, this is not an error.

May I explain : in Saxony, and also in neighboring Thuringia, a very pronounced, atrocious dialect is spoken that is a (very) far cry from "hochdeutsch" = high German.

The pronunciation of the consonants is reversed (k is pronounced like a g; t is pronounced like a d, for example). "Berg" sounds like BURCH, (in just the way Sophie pronounces Hardenberg's name), and the overall sound is heavy and graceless. But how is a reader of the English text to know that ?

You are right, ine, Heinrich Heine, born in 1797- the year Sophie died, comes to mind, especially his "Buch der Lieder" (1827). He is the author of a famous poem about the Lorelei that was later set to music; every child memorizes and learns to sing it; revelers still glory in its nostalgic sentiment.

But parody of this beautiful poem exists, written by Anonymous, significantly entirely in Saxonian dialect.

Let me quote just the first verse of Heine's Lorelei for ine, she may know it :


Ich weiss nicht, was soll es bedeuten,

Dass ich so traurig bin;

Ein Maerchen aus uralten Zeiten,

Das kommt mir nicht aus dem Sinn.

= I don't know what it is that makes me so sad; I can't stop thinking of a tale from long-ago times ...

Now this is the first verse of the Saxonian version :

Ich wees nich, mir isses so gomisch, und erchendwas macht mich verstimmt, ich gloobe das iss anadomisch, wie das bei den Menschen so gimmt.

Ugly and untranslatable. More on Heine later.

Indeed, the sadness in the book is palpable, especially toward the end.

In those days women were expected to be submissive. Fritz's mother certainly was; she is compared to a frightened hare a one point and certainly afraid of her husband, always trying to establish harmony and never really succeeding.

Imagine eleven children ! And eventually banned to an unheated attic room ! Sophie's mother reclines a lot and takes things easy, as we would say today.

Fritz himself makes a few distinctly anti-feminist remarks, and so does Erasmus. When Fritz comes back from his Uncle Wilhelm's, whom I rather liked, Erasmus asks him about the dinners, what conversations they had at table and whether there were women. Fritz says there were none. Erasmus exclaims, "what, no women ? Who would do the washing ?" (!)

In addition to the mothers, we must also look at the sisters, Sidonie v. Hardenberg and Friederike, later "die Mandelsloh, Sophie's sister. Both took things in hand in the respective households and displayed great strength under trying circumstances.

On rereading yet once more, I am wondering whether the author's characterizations might not be a trifle stereotypical.

thaank you for the lines of poetry, i recall those lines recited to me by my grandmother, i did not learn to speak german as a child but many times my grandma would sing or recite or on bad days mumble - when i asked her to teach me, i was told i was an american ?

wish i could conjure up even a hint of one of the songs, perhaps at a quite moment a word or two or tune will come to me.

appreciate the observation of the romantic era and notions of love and romantic love- i wonder why this concept in literature seems to apply only to the young or first love, certainly the frau and the herr don't seem to manifest such a love, i wonder if that is why there was no marriage- fritz perhaps knew at some point the veil is lifted and there is a change-

am also intrigued how we make illness the essence of romance, the disease might change but the pathos and angst seem pretty constant from ancient to modern. i wonder what romantic terminology would have been used to describe AIDS or Lou Gerhrig's Disease or Leukemia had any of these been the disease of choice in the work instead of TB.

Thank you, YiLi Lin,

I didn't mean to presume by citing German poetry; actually, the "Lorelei" has 5 more verses and is in fact in Heine's Buch der Lieder.

As one who is woefully inept in all matters technical, I admire your ability to center certain lines and use a different font.

Tonight I found a great deal of information in a German internet site on v. Hardenberg/Novalis, a detailed curriculum vitae, and an extract IN ENGLISH of his unfinished last work "Heinrich von Ofterdingen", in which the blue flower figures prominently. If there is a way to access that site, we could explore the extract together and look for the meaning of the blue flower and its symbolism.

In those days, dysentery was one scourge and Fritz himself had a severe case of it at the age of 8. TB was rampant then, and a severe threat even into modern times. It was in fact the theme of Thomas Mann's THE MAGIC MOUNTAIN. There may well have been cancer but it remained undiagnosed for lack of diagnosing tools. What progress we have made ! Alas, we have acquired a host of other problems in the bargain.

YiLi, I loved your Asian reference "veil is lifted." You meant getting to know the real person, but I know its origin is from the actual veil covering the bride's face until the ceremony is over. This is when the husband sees his wife's face for the first time, literally, if the marriage was arranged by the two families. Do I have this essentially correct? Our language is heavy with references of this sort, and I wish I could spot them more than I do.

Maybe your question about the link between illness and romance is tragedy. Before modern treatments were available, illness often meant death. So, two polar extremes of emotion...love and loss by illness/death. I assume both of these extremes fit well into any form of drama...in opera, plays, novels.

Paige, what a wonderful way of describing Fitzgerald's writing:

"The spare way in which Fitzgerald writes reminds me of a dance. She gives us a big scene (wash day) and then pulls back. Repeats this pattern until there is a rhythm to the story telling. She creates a tension as we lean forward to listen, as suggested here, and she pulls away. There is a contrast created in her writing in a dramatic way. This calls to mind the huge contrast in Fritz's life between being a poet and running a salt mine! "

That sums it up so beautifully - especially "she gives us a big scene (wash day) and then pulls back." Yes! The rhythm of her writing fascinates me. One could say the same about other "big scenes" - the Bernhard nearly drowning, the incident with the chap who loses parts of his fingers which Fritz carries home in his mouth - and then the more ordinary everyday events that follow them.

Ine and Traude - about Sophie's use of the spelling Hardenburch. I too thought Fitzgerald was trying to tell us that Sophie was simply too young, unsophisticated and uneducated to know how to spell. The entry from the diary in the middle of the book "From Sophie's Diary, 1795" confirmed this for me, where she, in a typical 12 year old's fashion, reports blandly that "today once again we were alone and nothing much happened," and "today we all decided to go to church but the weather held us up," and "today Hardenburch went away and I had nothing to amuse me."

Did you keep a diary at that age? I distinctly recall not having the deep smoldering intelligence I now possess (hahaha) and saying things much like this in my diary: "today we went to the movies and saw Earthquake (or, given my upbringing, Fellini's Satyricon)" Not kidding.

Is Sophie dumb or just an ordinary 12 year old? Have you noticed the parallel to The Bookshop - once again, we have a precocious young girl to whom an "older" man is drawn. Recall Florence Green's young assistant in the bookshop - and Milo North's somewhat unnatural (in my view) interest in her. And the allusion to Nabokov's Lolita in that book.

What explains Fritz's passion for Sophie? What in his upbringing or background causes him to latch on to such an unsuitable mate? Is it the fullness of her family life - the hustle bustle, the warmth, in contrast to the chill in his own home? Is this simply an example, yet again, that "love is blind," incomprehensible and obsessive, a la Of Human Bondage?

I understand your comment, Traude, about the women characters in this book, but isn't there a glimmer of hope - at least for the future - in Sidonie's spunk, the Mandelsloh's practicality, and even Karoline Just's forthrightness?

By the way, love this line from the book:

At Christmas, the year the Freiherr decides not to have a day of reckoning with his family: "Whenever she [Sidonie] opening to door an overwhelmingly spicy green breath crowded out into the passage, as though the forest had marched into the house."

And what do you make of this statement Fritz makes to the Mandelsloh: "I think, indeed that women have a better grasp on the whole business of life than we men have. We are morally better than they are, but they can reach perfection, we can't. And that is in spite of the fact that they particularise, we generalise. . . . Furthermore, I believe that all women have what Schlegel finds lacking in so many men, a beautiful soul. But so often it is concealed."

Of course, Sarah, Sophie was uneducated and unsophisticated; the spelled the name exactly as she pronounced it.

I am under the weather today and will post more another day.

Oh, Sarah, I think Fitzgerald has caught the spirit of those times, a lot of which carries over into today, unfortunately, in regards to how men perceived women.

Women were either whores or blessed, sweet, feminine and perfect mothers or mothers-in-the-bud, as it were. Nothing more, nothing less, and NOTHING in between!

Traude - thank you for reminding me of the song of the Lorelei. Yes, I remember it well. It brought back memories, and all morning the music surfaced in my memory. I tried to translate the Saxonian version, but as you already said, It's hopeless.

betty gregory - you mentioned that the link between illness and romance is tragedy, and I feel that way too. 'Before modern treatments were available, illness often meant death', you went on. But there is a big difference in our modern Western way of facing serious and fatal illnesses, and the way TB was faced. People in those days had didn't even have a name for the illness, that only came in 1839. They didn't know that TB was so contagious either, as is so clear in the passage on p. 135 of my version of the book: "... Gunther did nothing by halves. He had caught the household's cough, but reserved it for the night-time, when it echoed, like a large dog barking, down the corridors...." As a student nurse in Holland - late 1940-'51 - I worked with TB patients and this previous sentences makes me shudder. In those days the first antibiotic therapy for Tuberculosis had begun, but there were still many serious cases.

Nowadays we don't face death as was done in older days. We think we can cure fatal illnesses, while, in fact, in many cases we only prolong the suffering. I hope I don't sound rash because I don't mean to be. I'm awfully thankful for the modern medical knowledge, but I'm also worried that we harbor false hopes and beliefs that we have 'conquered' death.

Such a provocative post, ine. Does hope, false or otherwise, serve a purpose nonetheless? I think of a cherished family member who is dying - and hope, however fleeting and perhaps unrealistic, keeps her going, or at least she thinks.

I

Sarah, I'm so sorry to hear about the illness of a dear one of yours. That's why, perhaps, I should not have posted my previous writing. It came from the bottom of my heart, almost as if I had to. A few years ago my younger sister died of cancer in New Zealand, and we, too, surrounded her with hope and love - from a distance. It was agonizing, and, you're right - we all need that hope. I found our exchanges most meaningful when she realized that she should give up the treatments, and she talked to a counselor. I'll never forget these later talks with her: "You and I both emigrated. Soon I'll emigrate again." she told me once over the phone. "Where to?"

"My soul knows...." she answered herself.

I wish you strength for the coming months,

Ine

Ine, you wrote, "...when she realized that she should give up the treatments," about your sister. THAT's the decision/point/moment that can only be made by the person who is ill...is my confirmed view. Decisions about DNR (do not resusitate), continuing treatments, timing, which bed to be in, hospital or home...all these moments do not have to make sense to or be understood by anyone except the person herself. I'm using frank words without apologetic phrases because I feel so strongly about it. A chosen medical treatment may represent an extension period, a coming to terms period, a way to slowly say goodbye. Or, maybe it is not clear WHAT the decision is based on.

My private fear is that, even if I have said otherwise on notorized paper, some dense, well-meaning family member will second guess my decision to stop things earlier than THEY are ready for (doctors ignore 50 percent of living wills).....that's why I feel so strongly about the opposite, someone else who may hang on to anything, everything, something, to prolong the inevitable, which may not make sense to someone who is applying her/his separate reasoning.

I have a serious disability. I'm not anywhere near death and don't plan to be any time soon, but you wouldn't believe the people who presume to judge how I order my life, simply because I am losing physical strength. It's an assault on the level of respect I deserve.

I haven't written this to you, Ine, just to a phrase in a moving story that prompted my thoughts/fears. I don't speak with anger, only with worry that I won't be respected. It's ok that you opened this subject. I agree that there are some mixed-up, complex issues about the medical technology that, in many cases, prolongs suffering. I don't fear the technology, though. I fear not being heard.

Sorry, Sarah, for my jumping in and away from the discussion....it's a sore, sore button for me, illness and respect.

betty

Thank you so much, ine, for your kind words.

but i think that this thread is relevant to our observations in the Blue Flower- aside from tragedy, emotion, etc. these characters were imbued with a particular kind of strength- even if not recognizable in modern times- they lived and died as it were along a continuum- the fact of the TB and youthful death was not appalling- rather the course of things. in a way, that is a spiritual benchmark, seeing life as a process and seeing death as part of the process rather than a marker to be feared.

catching the 'cough' in these realms,lovers infecting lovers, seems to be a circle of infection that almost has honor or at minimum reinforces a more parochial life. (funny how we did not imbue this honor upon AIDS- a disease often gifted to those within a kind of family circle)

think on apsect of the impact of these books written by modern authors, who though with lots of research, look back with their modern viewpoint- is the creation of a mythology of the graceful death- i wonder betty how many of these characters that reflect on real lives had issues and 'buttons' the same as ours.

I almost died in my 20s, and as a consequence have never feared death for myself. It's really quite liberating and has freed me to live life to its fullest.

I came here all set to write about Sophie and discover we are in the midst of much more. I am sorry, Sarah,that you are having to endure hard times with someone in your family being so ill. I went through some difficult years with my parents when my father had Parkinsons and other complications. One can only do so much and there are many stages to be gotten through by patient and family. Things to learn.

I almost died in my twenties also. It did free me for a long time and then somewhere along the way, I have lost that feeling. Interesting that it has never left you...good for you! More to think about.

Wow, Paige, that's amazing that you had a similar experience. I really hope I can hold on to this feeling I have, as it is immensely "empowering," to use the pop psych term.

Sorry everyone to have gotten off on this tangent - but thanks for letting me say what I wanted to say!

By the way, Paige, do write about Sophie! Did you notice Fritz's recognition of the wisdom her name represents - how terribly lofty is his impression of her. Why is he so blind? Is it sex? Lust? Need? The lack of proper parenting? The coldness at home and the contrasting hustle bustle of Sophie's family. I am truly mystified. Is it the poet in him searching for an object of complete innocence to absorb his knowledge and depth like a sponge? Is he nuts? What does history tell us about this relationship, Traude or others familiar with Novalis?

Today is always a rotten day. I can count on screwing up any number of ways and I have. Sarah, it went right past me that you were speaking of a real person. I reread your post and can't understand why I didn't get it. I'm awfully sorry. How inappropriate of me to write out a sermon of what's right and wrong. I wouldn't have if I'd seen clearly what you wrote.

Would this be a good place to say also that I've been carrying around a piece of regret in my stomach for making fun of your computer being down and of your comments at the first of Bookshop? My calling out for Ginny to get back here to help me counteract your premise was meant to be funny. The joke is probably on me, though. When have Ginny and I ever seen eye to eye when one of us thought the other would. (Something that keeps me laughing.)

When I have rotten days like today, I usually get around to making myself begin an inventory of how I'm fortunate. So, I've been thinking a lot today about what an unexpected gift it is...knowing all of you. This serious work/fun we do looking at books together, mulling over usual and unusual aspects, going in directions that I never would have thought of on my own, is really amazing. I think of all the years that I wished for deeper conversations about what I was reading....and here you are!!

For all the growing pains of this place, it's still quite remarkable that we do this wonderful coming together and sharing our love of books. I just wanted to say that I appreciate all of you, but especially today, Sarah. Could you say who is ill? And/or how you are doing?

betty

Sarah, I have read many posts and have enjoyed it all very much. My thoughts and all are with you and your family.

Wash day once a year is amost unbelievable and I have been wondering how many times people bathed in times long gone by. I am old enough to remember the once a week tub experience. When I was working it was each day aa soon as I got home.

Ine, glad to see you here and enjoying all.

Paige, You do fit in and add so much to the discussion. You are special.

Have you both ine and paige looked in the header where we having our 3rd gathering of the people who enjoy Books and get to meet face to face. If you have not click on it in the header or here.Just a persnonal invitation specialy for you. Book people gathering Dc.

I went for the first time at the Chicago gathering last year or was it the year before (senior moment here, (smile) as it had to be the year before as some of gathered in England we saw alot of England and enjoyed what I saw and the group I was with.

Hi to all Ginger

Betty - thank you for your heartfelt message. It really means a lot! We all have our bad moments, but I truly appreciate your kind words nonetheless.

On Sophie, the reader's guide for this book asks:

How can we explain Fritz's sudden, irrational love for the plain, twelve-year-old Sophie von Kuhn? What about the girl attracts him so powerfully? Is Sophie a repository of Fritz's Romantic ideals and aspirations? Does he project upon her his own thoughts, beliefs and feelings? What is the significance of his insistence on Sophie's resemblance to "Raphael's self-portrait at the age of 25"?

On the meaning of the Blue Flower, the readers' guide says this:

The blue flower - die blaue Blume - has long been a symbol of Romantic yearning. What is the meaning, in the novel, and in Fritz's life, of the blue flower, and of The Blue Flower, Fritz's unfinished writing?

Personally, I have been thinking from the beginning that Fritz simply had arrived at that stage in the young poet/philosopher's life where he was in need of an object to adore. Someone to be his inspiration. He as much as says so himself. A romanticized ideal. On the spur of the moment, his eyes fix on the lively Sophia, and that is that!

Obviously, he is not in love with WHO she is, but with his idea of her as he feasts his eyes on her. He might have done better to feast his eyes and admiration on a tree!

Then our author tells us that Erasmus has fallen in love with her as well, and I am left wondering if this beautiful child had enormous charisma.

My feelings about Fritz's passion for Sophie are the same as MaryPage's. Rather than passion for Sophie, I think it is just Fritz's passion. His passion for life, his fire. He speaks rapidly, full of ideas and enthusiasm. Believes the Golden Age will return and that there is no evil in the world. He has transfigurations where he sees people as their spiritual selves. And along comes Sophie. He saw her first from the back while she is looking out the window. He said, "Let time stand still until she turns around." As MaryPage says she could have been a tree! He needed a focus for his passion and it was probably just timing that it was Sophie. Is it possible that Erasmuus falls in love with her also because Fritz is in love with her? Sometimes people become more appealing because of the partner they are wtih, shallow but true.

Although lifespans were much shorter then, Sophie is a child, perhaps not a very bright child. It does seem to be a theme of Fitzsgeralds with Milo and Christine from "The Book Shop" and also bringing "Lolita" into the mix.

One more thing, on the subject of men's thoughts about women. What about the line, "If a woman keeps working, she will find she is never tired." Lovely.

It's a mystery to me why Fitzgerald has Christine in Bookshop and Sophie in Blue Flower be objects of attraction. It is the men in both stories who are attracted to children. There is the fleeting thought about Bookshop's treatment of women as children, specifically from the banker and in general from the town.

This may be giving Fitzgerald too much credit, or going beyond her thinking, but men who are attracted to children do tell us something about how they feel about women. My thought about this loses in translation when I write it out in cold words, but there it is.

A separate thought is the undercurrent in both books, very subtle, though, of anti-conformity. A different outlook on life. Separation. Aren't geniuses separate, outside the norm of intelligence and more?

Paige, delighted to hear we see this the same way.

Betty, I have to admit I have been wondering if Fitzgerald is letting some deep resentment out here, and if she knew it or was not aware. We write what we know and have known.

She may have been the object of an old man's (or someone who seemed like an old man to her) passion when quite young. Or she may have had a sister who was her father's favorite. Shoot, you would have more ideas on this than I.

On the other hand, Sophia is a real person. Which book did she write first? That might give us a clue. If The Bookshop came first, she may not have delibertely chosen the theme twice, but it just happened that way. If THE BLUE FLOWER came first, she may have had leftover feelings about the Sophia thing. Or not.

Well, I sincerely hope it is the geniuses who are not normal, because they certainly seem out of the ordinary to me!

She wrote The Bookshop first.

We know and accept that Fitzgerald leaves things out, but in the case of Sophie I feel deceived. It's as if she was not sure herself about this strange attraction of Fritz for the girl. As if she passed it on to the reader, thinking somewhat: do-with-this-what-you-will. There doesn't seem to be any development in this relationship of the two, and all I can think of is that Fritz wanted one person to be the focus of his interest. Perhaps Fitzgerald gave us a clue: she added Raphael's self-portrait, and that might have to do with self-discovery, as a painter must search within when he wants to make a meaningful portrait of himself.

I liked what Paige wrote in entree 241, (and Paige, I hope you don't mind using your words here}: "... The universe, after all is within us." And the next line, "The way leads inwards, always inwards." ... does it lead us to the idea that we create our own reality? The way leading inwards, always inwards suggests we alone have the answers to our questions. Reminds me of many therapies where a therapist guides you to your own answers. Is it possible that we look for answers in people, places, belief systems, teachings, and writings when all the time we need to go inward...?"

I also kept on thinking of the question Yili Lin asked in entree 243: How would the modern Western world look at Fritz's affection for a Sophie? Fritz never had a chance to travel like we do today, to meet other cultures and learn about other religions. My guess is that, had Fritz lived today, he might have travelled to India, in search for spiritual renewal, and for a quest for self. How would we Western's look at Fritz?

Would it depend on our own worldview, our beliefs and prejudices?

Betty, this fascinates me: "A separate thought is the undercurrent in both books, very subtle, though, of anti-conformity. A different outlook on life. Separation. Aren't geniuses separate, outside the norm of intelligence and more?" Say more about this. Are you referring to Fritz only, or others as well. And who was the genius in the Bookshop?

ine, I too like Paige's remarks here: "... The universe, after all is within us." And the next line, "The way leads inwards, always inwards." ... does it lead us to the idea that we create our own reality? The way leading inwards, always inwards suggests we alone have the answers to our questions. Reminds me of many therapies where a therapist guides you to your own answers. Is it possible that we look for answers in people, places, belief systems, teachings, and writings when all the time we need to go inward...?"

Why does Fritz believe this, and what causes him to believe it? It comes up in this context: "It had always seemed to Fritz that Coelestin Just knew what contentment was, but not passion, and could therefore be accounted a happy man. He saw now how mistaken he had been. It was discontent that, at last, was making Just truly happy. Althought, short of dismantling and re-constructing the entire garden-house nothing could now be done about the Vorbau [porch], he would never been quite satisfied with it, never cease to build and rebuild it in his mind. The universe, after all, is within us.

What does this mean?

It's a mystery to me why Fitzgerald has Christine in Bookshop and Sophie in Blue Flower be objects of attraction. It is the men in both stories who are attracted to children. There is the fleeting thought about Bookshop's treatment of women as children, specifically from the banker and in general from the town

Betty it amazes me how often we are on the same wave but you express your ideas much more graciously- I wanted to post a rather succinct (but set in the vein of humor)....perhaps Fritz is simply a pedophile! But more seriously, I agree I think it is with Ine or Sarah- sorry I am confused- who mentions Fitzgerald perhaps showing us the role of women, even young women in these times- the perennial child.

On the other hand, perhaps Fitzgerald is also hoping we see the men's fear of women and thus the patriarchy of the culture. Historically especially in north Europe it is possible there is a reality base to the fear, recently I was doing research and learned about the goddess rituals i Scandanavia- wow were we not a powerful gender then!

I agree Fritz in these time perhaps would have been a spiritual pilgrim- a path not open to men of his ilk, and perhaps Sophie is his metaphorical journey.

Sarah, could the discontent that Just felt infer continued growth on the path of the inward journey? The statement about it being the discontent that was making him truly happy and that he would never cease to build and rebuild the porch in his mind suggests this. Brings to mind the idea that we are all works in progress, especially if we are paying attention! That we are hopefully moving in directions of growth, of seeking our own truths, building and rebuilding throughout our lives. Thus, "The universe, after all, is within us." This brings me back to creating our own reality. I don't know how Fritz knew this! It amazed me at the time that I read it. When he spoke of it in the graveyard I wondered how he could know this so early in his life.

YiLi Lin, where have you found this information about Scandinavian goddess rituals? It is my heritage, I could use some of this gender power you have mentioned!

Betty, you make an excellent point in # 277 about non-conformity = certainly true for a genius. Though more than one genius can be found in the pages of the Blue Flower, the one on whom Fitzgerald focuses primarily is Fritz.

It is hard for the modern reader to understand Fritz's sudden, overwhelming romantic passion for Sophie, a mere child, in whom he invested all his unspoken and possibly unrealized longing. Theirs was an unlikely, even unsuitable union. Can we think of an explanation for his passion and its intensity ? Who can explain his/her love for a particular person even now ?

True, ine, Sophie remains somewhat indistinct for the reader, but Fitzgerald had little to work with. History left only outlines, such as her name and her age when they met and when she died. Fitzgerald had to imagine feelings and details. Details like Goethe's visit to Sophie's sickbed. Yet Goethe, born in 1749, was by then a famous revered poet and playwright while Fritz, though known as a poet, had yet to become Novalis.

Sophie most assuredly had charisma, as has already been said here, and must have possessed an ineffable, unfathomable quality that left an indelible impression - not only on Fritz but also on his brother Erasmus. Erasmus, convinced that the "mere child" was totally the wrong choice, presented himself at the Rockenthien home and ended up mesmerized, desperately and hopelessly enamored of her himself. And the painter hired to paint Sophie's likenss was unable to capture her essence.

Once we get to discuss Fritz's dreams, we'll have a better idea of what that blue flower represented for Fritz and why it became symbolic for German Romanticism as a whole.

Yili says: "It's a mystery to me why Fitzgerald has Christine in Bookshop and Sophie in Blue Flower be objects of attraction. It is the men in both stories who are attracted to children. There is the fleeting thought about Bookshop's treatment of women as children, specifically from the banker and in general from the town."

That is very true, isn't it? It's odd coming from a woman author - unless Fitzgerald smolders with resentment about such treatment in her own life. There is a tongue in cheek quality to her writing that might explain these jabs at men and their treatment of women as children.

Traude, for some reason, I had the impression that the reason the painter could not capture Sophie's true essence was because there was nothing there! It was as if she wasn't fully formed yet, just an amorphous blob still who wasn't old or mature enough to convey an essence. The incident to me seemed to illustrate the folly of falling in love with such a young person and trying to make her the object of romantic (or Romantic) yearning. Or was the message perhaps that only Fritz (and later Erasmus) could see her essence, her interior, and the painter somehow lacked the depth, the romanticism, to be able to see it? I sort of prefer the former interpretation just out of my own squeamishness about making a child the object of such passion. Were children this young seen as marriageable in those days - or was it already taboo?

I have always shut down when called upon to interpret the significance of dreams. Thus, I'd be interested, Traude, in your thoughts on "Fritz's dreams [and] . . .what that blue flower represented for Fritz and why it became symbolic for German Romanticism as a whole. "

Paige says "Brings to mind the idea that we are all works in progress, especially if we are paying attention! That we are hopefully moving in directions of growth, of seeking our own truths, building and rebuilding throughout our lives." I love that. I'm wondering if Fitzgerald's line about Coelestin Just being happy due to his discontent , rather than contentment, isn't a reflection of the times in which he lived. Traude, you could illuminate here too, I think. Was Romanticism about yearning - was discontent and striving seen as a path to happiness. Was contentment seen almost as simple-minded, too easy, and not the road to true happiness?

Here's a similar question from the reader's guide (sometimes these things come in handy):

In the first chapter, Fitzgerlad writes that "Impatience, translated into spiritual energy, raced through all the young Hardenbergs. " How are impatience and spiritual energy revealed throughout the novel, in relation to individual characters and to their times? With what consequences?"

Perhaps the blue flower represents unobtainable perfection or the elusive ideal. The great rarity of the satisfiable heart. The short life, the lack of immortality, of both the imagined and the real.

But, at this point, I have a feeling that Fitzgerald has a tendency to look down on women. As we have already discussed: the two sisters, Sidonie and Friederike, are capable and independent types, probably like Penelope herself, but all the other women - like Sophie - are portrayed as 'nothing there'. However, Fitzgerald's style and humor are marvelous, so why complain? I like the dialogue on drinking on p 136: (Mandelsloh tells Sophie that students don't read, they drink. /'Why do they drink?' Sophie asks/ ‘Because they desire to know the whole truth', Fritz answers, ‘and that makes them desperate'./ ' He explains to Sophie that they can't ‘buy' the whole truth, ... but they know they can get drunk for three groschen.' Does that tie in with the last two lines in the poem about intoxication on page 91: ... Life's highest meaning will then no longer / be mistaken for drunken dreams? Is there part of the answer about the meaning of the Blue Flower in those lines?

This poem about Sophie (and many other of his remarks) makes me believe that Fritz's love for Sophie is a more detached or impersonal experience of loving, although just as passionate. Not pedophilia, as in ‘Lolita' where a widower marries the mother of a girl child he is enamored with. That strikes me more as being irresponsible toward sexual energy, although, I read ‘Lolita' a long time ago, and still remember some beautiful passages about this love for Lolita.

What about Goethe and Schlegel visiting Sophie? Is it interest in her, or a curiosity to see this girl of Fritz, as the Jena friends whose remarks show us that they are not too impressed with the Rockenthiens: ‘How much money would she bring with her?' (175) and: ‘They're like a troop of farm-hands come up for the hiring fair (177). Would these two famous men have visited her too if she had not conveniently been in Jena and therefore easier to reach?

Fritz's scientific mind was ahead of his time, there are several passages where he alludes to ‘chemistry' and what could be done with it. On p 65 he tried to explain to Gruessen Just how, with the help of chemistry, the copying of documents might perhaps be done automatically. (Is he thinking in the direction of computers already?) That's why I liked your question, Sarah, about discontent and striving seen as a path to happiness: Was contentment seen almost as single-minded, too easy, not the road to true happiness? A few months ago I read a book by the Canadian author Sylvia Fraser ‘The Rope in the Water', an uplifting and earthbound story about a pilgrimage to India. She wrote about the Maharashi Yogi, the guru of the Beatles and Mia Farrow in the 60's and 70's, who often visited the Western world. Sylvia quoted him as commiserating once: ‘I went to the West to wake them up, but all they wanted was to be put to sleep.' Do we Westerns see happiness as a perpetual contentment? And is that why I feel that Fritz would easily have fitted in this day and age, and be happy with the new technology, still writing about a blue flower, but a different one. As he told Schlegel on his deathbed that he had entirely changed his plan for the story of the Blue Flower.

I love this, ine:

Sarah, about discontent and striving seen as a path to happiness: Was contentment seen almost as single-minded, too easy, not the road to true happiness? A few months ago I read a book by the Canadian author Sylvia Fraser ‘The Rope in the Water', an uplifting and earthbound story about a pilgrimage to India. She wrote about the Maharashi Yogi, the guru of the Beatles and Mia Farrow in the 60's and 70's, who often visited the Western world. Sylvia quoted him as commiserating once: ‘I went to the West to wake them up, but all they wanted was to be put to sleep.' Do we Westerns see happiness as a perpetual contentment?

Isn't that absolutely true of westerners - especially Americans? If we don't feel "happy," "up," all the time, we decide there is something wrong with us, or our kids, our parents, our friends, our co-workers. I like the idea of a different definition of contentment, although I suspect our way of being is so ingrained it is difficult, if not impossible, to shake.

On another note: We have a week to finish up this discussion, as we will move on in "Prized Fiction" (your "host" for this discussion) to a discussion of Nobel Prize winner Boris Pasternak's Doctor Zhivago on July 1. Therefore, I would love to get your final thoughts on this book in the next week.

Some more readers's guide questions to take you on this journey:

After reading the opening chapter of The Blue Flower to Sophie and the Madelsloh, Fritz commnets, "If a story begins wih finding, it must end with searching." Who is searcing, and for what, throughout the novel?

Near the end of the novel, Fritz writes in his journal: "As things are, we are the enemies of the world, and foreigners to this earth. Our grasp of it is a process of estrangement." What does Fritz suggest here and how do these sentiments relate to his own life?

My addition: How do these sentiments relate to your own lives, and to the lives of Westerners generally?

What does Fritz mean when he insists that "women are children of nature" and "nature, in a sense, is their art" and that "We [men] are morally better than [women] are, but they can rech perfection, we can't"? How does Fitzgerald represent the juxtapostion of, on the one hand, women, Nature, and perfection, and, on the other, men, morality and the practical world?

I have been distracted and unable to post in any detail for a few days, preparing for a summer planning board meeting of my organization, scheduled for tomorrow.

Sad to hear we are in the final days of this discussion before having had the chance to go into the meaning (symbolic or otherwise) of the "blue flower" - which is after all the title of the book. Even though this discussion has fostered wonderful observations and reflections, it cannot- in my humble opinion- be complete unless we manage to peel away the multiple layers, some of which obscure rather than reveal the blue flower.

I believe with ine that Fritz's passion was real but idealistic to the highest degree; there were no Lolita-like aspects to it.

In haste.

One long dreadful summer cold goingon the past two weeks so haven't been here to even post a sentence....too hard to think when you have one of "those".

Going to read your usual fun posts.

~Marj

This company is named after Novalis mention of the blue flower.

Blue Flower Press

I am sorry that I have been so quiet - have been out of town on business. Will come in tonight!

Dear Sarah, I've also been busy - having one of our daughters as an overnight guest, what joy! (She just left for Holland to see her ancestors, and we wished we could come with her...) Is tomorrow too late to try to sum up the essence of the Blue Flower? However, I feel like Traude, that we haven't reached all the meanings of this elusive flower, but perhaps that will make us think about it the more after we lay the book aside. MarjV - hopefully your flu is completely gone - these bugs linger an awful long time....

Please give me this weekend to post final comments on the Blue Flower. I WILL keep my promise !

I have asked that this discussion remain open another week, because I agree with ine and Traude that there is more to say. I'd really love to hear some concluding words from each of you - you have all been so insightful during the course of this discussion.

I wondered about the impact of nature (Nature) on the period in which Fritz von Hardenberg lived. Toward the end of the book, Justen (Katherine Just) muses over the von Hardenberg sons' choices of profession - Erasmus, the intended forestry official, Karl and Anton the soldiers - and then Fritz, the salt mine official:

"[M]ining, the extraction of minerals and salts from the earth - well, she had been more than once to the salt-refineries at Halle and Artern, and she had seen, and smelled, the clouds of dark yellowish smoke from the amalgam works near Freiberg, and she could not help thinking of them as an offence against Nature, which could never create such ugliness. 'So often, Hardenberg, we have spoken of Nature. Only on Wednesday evening you were saying at table that although human culture and industry may grow, Nature remains the same, and our first duty is to consider what she asks of us.' Taking a risk which she had forbidden herself, she went on, 'You have spoken of Sophie as Nature herself.'

"Karoline shut her eyes for a moment as she said this, not being anxious to see the effect. Fritz cried - 'No, Justen, you have not understood. The mining industry is not a violation of Nature's secrets, but a release. You must imagine that in the mines you reach the primal sons of Mother Earth, the age-old life, trapped in the ground beneath your feet. I have seen this process as a meeting with the King of Metals, who waits underground, listening in hope for the first sounds of teh pick, while the miner struggles through hardships to bring him up to the light of day. Release, Justen! What must the Kind of Metals feel when he turns his face to the sunlight for the first time?

. . .

"She recognised the voice in which he had read to her the opening chapter of The Blue Flower.

This sounds like a rationalization to me - both of Fritz's "choice" of the salt mining profession, and of his obsession with young Sophie. Both violate "Nature" in some way - and he appears to realize this but to be unable to resist the forces that drive him to pursue them. The salt mine work is a duty he feels he owes to his father, whom he fears and from whom he desires approval. The obsession with Sophie is just that - and obsessions are something over which one rarely has control.

What do you make of all of this?

Traude, ine, and others, what IS the meaning of the Blue Flower in your view?

And one more thing, from the link MarjV put in her most recent post:

"Blue Flower's name comes from a non-existent blue flower first mentioned by the 19th Century German writer and poet Novalis in his unfinished novel, "Heinrich von Ofterdingen". This non-existent flower became for the German Romanticists a symbol of the unattainable and unending quest for perfection."

Also, a reminder that tomorrow another discussion leader, Ella, and I will begin a discussion of Doctor Zhivago, by Nobel Prize winning author Boris Pasternak. I know it's a lot to ask, but please stay here AND join Ella and me in the Zhivago!

"---Doctor Zhivago~by Boris Pasternak~Prized Fiction~ 7/01"

I have asked that this discussion remain open another week, because I agree with ine and Traude that there is more to say. I'd really love to hear some concluding words from each of you - you have all been so insightful during the course of this discussion.

I wondered about the impact of nature (Nature) on the period in which Fritz von Hardenberg lived. Toward the end of the book, Justen (Katherine Just) muses over the von Hardenberg sons' choices of profession - Erasmus, the intended forestry official, Karl and Anton the soldiers - and then Fritz, the salt mine official:

"[M]ining, the extraction of minerals and salts from the earth - well, she had been more than once to the salt-refineries at Halle and Artern, and she had seen, and smelled, the clouds of dark yellowish smoke from the amalgam works near Freiberg, and she could not help thinking of them as an offence against Nature, which could never create such ugliness. 'So often, Hardenberg, we have spoken of Nature. Only on Wednesday evening you were saying at table that although human culture and industry may grow, Nature remains the same, and our first duty is to consider what she asks of us.' Taking a risk which she had forbidden herself, she went on, 'You have spoken of Sophie as Nature herself.'

"Karoline shut her eyes for a moment as she said this, not being anxious to see the effect. Fritz cried - 'No, Justen, you have not understood. The mining industry is not a violation of Nature's secrets, but a release. You must imagine that in the mines you reach the primal sons of Mother Earth, the age-old life, trapped in the ground beneath your feet. I have seen this process as a meeting with the King of Metals, who waits underground, listening in hope for the first sounds of teh pick, while the miner struggles through hardships to bring him up to the light of day. Release, Justen! What must the Kind of Metals feel when he turns his face to the sunlight for the first time?

. . .

"She recognised the voice in which he had read to her the opening chapter of The Blue Flower.

This sounds like a rationalization to me - both of Fritz's "choice" of the salt mining profession, and of his obsession with young Sophie. Both violate "Nature" in some way - and he appears to realize this but to be unable to resist the forces that drive him to pursue them. The salt mine work is a duty he feels he owes to his father, whom he fears and from whom he desires approval. The obsession with Sophie is just that - and obsessions are something over which one rarely has control.

What do you make of all of this?

Traude, ine, and others, what IS the meaning of the Blue Flower in your view?

Fitzgerald chose a time in Fritz's life when he was not famous yet - an unformed stage. This might have been a good choice as he wrote the first draft of The Blue Flower before he met Sophie, and already he had a strong longing for this something we want to define. I tried, as much as I could, to follow the clues the writer planted, in order to understand her views about Fritz's personality, his beliefs, and philosophy. To find out how I related to this myself.

There are two recurring images in The Blue Flower, the one of ‘the stranger, who is only known by one', and the other one of 'doors opening'. I focused on those images, and also on the reaction of the characters in the story who read the first part of The Blue Flower. There are Fritz's friends in Jena who say that "For him there is no real barrier between the unseen and the seen...." This I see as the subconsciousness and the consciousness, the idea of a multidimensial world. (129)

Justen heard it first and was not sure, but on p 152, she recognized the voice in which he had read to her the opening chapter of THE BLUE FLOWER. Sarah referred already to the part where Fritz talked passionately about the mining industry, and the wonders of natural science: ‘... In the mines you reach the primal sons of Mother Earth, the age-old life, trapped in the ground beneath your feet...' He compares the process as a meeting with the ‘King of Metals' who waits while the miner squiggles through hardships to bring him up to the light of the day. "What must the King of Metals feel when he turns his face to the sunlight for the first time?" He asks Justen.(152) Would he compare this moment to the first time he saw Sophie? Perhaps of going deep within and meeting his own soul?

Hofrat Friedrich Ebhard never read the opening of ‘The Blue Flower' but, since one out of four of his patients died of consumption, '... he could have said immediately what he thought it meant....' Would the author refer to Death? (138)

Bernard was struck by ‘the stranger who was only understood by one person': "It was a matter of recognizing your own fate and greeting it as familiar when it came," he thought. Is the meaning of this fate Death? (199)

Fichte's lecture of the self. (Fichte saw existences only in terms of the self (the ego) and claimed that the world around us is the ‘non-ego'.) This is about equal to saying: ‘We create it all ourselves' or, perhaps, that it's our own reality we project outward. Fritz talks about this when he tells Sophie: "Miracles don't make people believe! It's the belief that is the miracle!"(84)

Fritz dreamt that he was a student again, and listening to Fichte's lecture on the Self. He felt he was in the wrong place, and decides to travel to Schloben, to ‘visit his friend Hardenberg' (himself). The door was opened by a young girl with dark hair. Justen asks: "What did the young woman look like?" "That doesn't matter," Fritz answers, "what mattered is that she opened the door." Was she the instrument that opened the door to that unseen world, his inner Self?.(205)

Friederike's story. She tells the children the story about the honest shopkeeper who never felt any pain and when he reached the age of 45 he was quite unaware the he was ill and never thought to call the doctor until he heard the sound of the door opening. Someone he did not know came in and that someone was Death.(139)

We are left with the importance of death and how the characters reacted to it. They were quite familiar and accepting of it. On p 84 Fritz talks to Sophie about Schlegel's interest in transmigration, and they both believe in ‘being born again'. My dictionary has an entree: ‘also used for transmigration of the soul'.

Part of the mystery of The Blue Flower might be Fritz's search for self - for his soul.

for having extended the time period for his discussion by a few days. My own delay in posting is due to the fact that I am undergoing intensive daily lymphedema therapy which culminates in tight bandaging of the affected arm (and renders it mostly immobile) ;the bandaging has to be worn for the remainder of the day and night until the treatment begins anew the next day. (I can't do without a shower and am momentarily liberated but will have to set off soon.)

Now that we are at the end of our discussions it may be permissible to draw some conclusions, relate impressions, both general and specific . First of all it is to Fitzgerald's enormous credit that with slim book she has brought to American readers' awareness the existence of Novalis whose literary importance was and is considerable in Europe despite his short life. The author has the wonderful ability to sketch characters in few words, to show us who they are and what "stuff" they are "made of" by their actions and reactions, and the reader "gets" the picture.

The narrative begins with the washday - a quietly dramatic opening, we meet the Hardenbergs and go into their background, and it is actually not until chapter 33 that the author brings us back to where we "came in". This is not a sweeping epic, the story is full of subtleties, there are some almost epigrammatic comments strewn in, and the ending is suffused with sadness. Perhaps that ending is foreshadowed by the snow wich fell on the day when Fritz and Sophie met; snow has been used as a symbol of death, most notably by James Joyce in THE DUBLINERS.

I am glad I made at least a beginning here, now I have to get ready for the therapy session. When I return, my typing will be a bit labored and far from perfect, so I am asking in advance for a 'general pardon' of such technical inadequacies.

Traude

You've got it, and good luck! Rough road you've got. love from marypage

Thank you, MaryPage.

Of course the reader is first drawn to the characters; the main focus is on Fritz without a question. What the author intended by introducing Diethmahler into the story early on, giving him such a (deceptively) prominent role, and then bringing him back at crucial times, is not readily apparent on the face of things, except as a literary device = as a surrogate narrator/commentator, perhaps to point out (among other things) the class differences, which were very real then AND well beyond Novalis' century, may I add -, emphatically. Just the name counted, the title - even if the properties (as in the case of the Hardenberg family) were bankrupt and barren and the family was tenaciously hanging on for dear life - as a symbol.

to be continued

Some encyclopedic entries indicate that Novalis studied LAW (!!??), which makes one question the accuracy of some of the information so freely provided on the net. Fichte (1762-1814) and Kant (1724-1804) were philosophers ! Disappointingly, little is said in Fitzgerald's book about the theories of Kant. Be that as it may, among the subjects Novalis did study was mineralogy - the science and study of minerals, oƒ which salt is one.

He knew early on that he would have to get a salaried job, and he fell into his by virtue of his (very prosaic) father's post and inƒluence. In today's terms we would call both "civil servants". Also in today's terms, Fritz was an auditor.

The sometimes annoyingly obscure, old-fashioned wording (e.g. "salt mines") quite wrongly evokes in the modern reader an image, an association which that job did NOT have. It was a job, for the father and for the son, provided an income, and was NOT indicative of excessive, sweaty-brow, insufferable toil, as the term 'salt mines' might otherwise imply.

I have no idea how many American readers may have been prematurely discouraged from further reading, but not a few might have ƒound the persistent use of so many German terms - geographic and otherwise - a deterrent, even off-putting. I have said so here before and hasten to add, again, that I have NO language problem. Even so, I feel very strongly that SOME accommodation should have been provided for the unsuspec†ing reader - a map, perhaps, and very definitely a (small) glossary .

I am glad that, before her death at 83, Fitzgerald sanctioned corrections of some rather annoying errors in the printed copies.

to be coninued

There is much more to say - and we haven't even gotten to the Blue Flower !

I was well into ƒurther comments when I was interrupted three times, THREE times; my bandaged arm hurts and I will try again tomorrow.

See you then.

Traude, my arm hurts for your arm, but your (always) insightful comments are doubly appreciated for the effort.

Fitzgerald brings her characters to life with clarity, unfailing grace and, perhaps most admirably, in a detached manner with an absolute minimum of words.

Some of those words have an (undeniable, I think) undertone of irony; some could be considered as slightly reproving of the person discussed. Check the description of the would-be poetess Louise Brachmann in chapter 43 - as only one (minor) example.

May I start with the mother . We see her in a state of perpetual unreadiness/unpreparedness, discomfited by even the THOUGHT of guests and, once guests have arrived, as desperately (and in vein) trying for harmony in a large, chaotic household -- to which new babies were added as often as nature allowed.

Her only reason for living seems to have been to assure the well-being of her righteous autocratic husband whose inflexible points of view she accepted as unalterable, if not perhaps perfectly normal (!). Just as meekly, she appears not to have protested when -- after yet another birth -- her briskly efficient daughter Sidonie moved the mother into an attic room, which was unheated (!).

There was a glimmer of hope when (chapter 42) Fritz arranged a clandestine meeting with his mother at dusk in the garden; he came to plead his case after finally writing to the father about his engagement to Sophie. The mother might have envisaged possibly opening up to this genial son of hers to tell him that, at 45, she really didn't know how to spend the rest of her life.

to be continued

to the father, the "Hausherr", the person of authority who set the rules, the time tables, the plans -- and never wavered. The thought of accommodating anyone was alien to him. He was catered to, his word, and ONLY HIS, counted. It is almost heart-breaking to read how relaxed the brood was at the breakfast table when the Old Man ("der Alte") was NOT there. That is almost an indictment, I say. The image of those children banging their cups on the table to shout "satt" (=full") is appalling.

In parentheses, one wonders whether this paragon of virtue felt any humility when HE HIMSELF was at his wits' end and needed the counsel of the "Prediger" (=preacher) for the ultimate, definitive, binding word --

will be back

When Fritz's father learned that the future mother of his many children was called "Bernhardine", he asked (impatiently ?) whether she had a (presumably simpler) middle name. She did. It was Auguste. And that's what she was called -- forever after.

Fitzgerald is known for meticulously setting the scene, for describing the milieu, and the respective era, very important here. Among the most graphic the slop pails; the devoted, watchful, respectful servants kneeling down in prayer with the family. All of this provides an indelible impression, an over-all picture, on the reader, who couldn't get half an understanding without it.

Now the siblings must be briefly mentioned. And though some of them may be stereotypical representations, they are known to have lived. Neither the story nor this discusion would be complete without reference to them. They were part and parcel of Novalis' life and work.

Sidonie was ever resourceful and practical in a household that had no de facto "Hausherrin" = mistress; Sidonie's was a calming mediating presence without whom nothing would have worked in Weissenfels. That she sacrificed her own life in the process is tacitly understood.

Of the brothers= Erasmus, Anton, Karl and Bernhard, the precocious Bernhard is the most enigmatic. I am not sure why the author pictured him as "angelic". Perhaps someone else can supply a possible explanation. From the Afterword we learn that Bernhard drowned in the river Saale; was he a suicide ? Why ?

I feel all of these reflections are necessary before we get to the Blue Flower and thank you for your indulgence.

Back soon.

According to other biographies of Fritz, the Bernhard was a suicide. He certainly is pictured as extremely precocious, which perhaps he was. Fritz may not have been the only genius in that family.

Dear Traude, You're going through a difficult time, and still are sending such insightful messages. Thank you so much; I wish you strength, and a little bouquet of field flowers (with a blue flower stuck in the middle). I never realized Bernhard committed suicide, and perhaps Fitzgerald wanted to foreshadow this in the scene where Fritz drags him out of the river, him shouting something like: 'Let me die!' (My copy of The Blue Flower is back in the library, after being renewed several times). The word 'angelic' is stretching it a bit. I would love to translate it in 'little pest', but he was, deep down, a kind and lovable creature, and that are some of the attributes of an angle. ine

Yes, MaryPage, the Bernhard was precocious, ultrasensitive to what he overheard, muttering thoughts from his listening post under the table, including the prophecy that "people's heads would be cut off" in the turmoil of the French "insurrection" that became a taboo subject henceforth and papers forbidden. The child felt vulnerable and worried what would become of him.

There was something very different (perhaps other-worldly) about the Bernhard that must have been obvious early on : the mother worried about THIS child - though the welfare of the children was not her first priority, as we have seen. And at the end of chapter 43, Karoline Just (too bad we won't have time to discuss her interesting personality) says to Severin, "I believe Hardenberg is truly interested in his younger brother. Indeed, he is altogether very fond of children."

"Quite possibly he is," said Severin. "As to Bernhard, you must remember that not all children are child-like." (!!)

How astonishing then, how encouraging even, to see the emergence of independent thought, possibly even the seeds of rebellion (!) in this austere, regimented household ! This reader feels like cheering.

By contrast, Sophie's family was happy-go-lucky by all accounts, not duty-bound to avoid "worldliness"; indeed the carefree Rockenthiens may not have been members of that pious Brethren's sect. Incidentally, that sect did exist also in parts of southern Germany in various forms, but never in significant numbers, and was even then the object of derision.

Clearly, Fritz's paternal Uncle Wilhelm and Fritz's maternal uncle were not among the believers (that's why Auguste dreaded visits when both would descend at the same time !). Research shows that the Father and the children did indeed make fun of Uncle Wilhelm and resented his visits as intrusions, just like the Father did.

The historical fact is that Wilhelm was a well-respected, sophisticated, enlightened man and a highly-placed servant of the government. The Maltese Cross was not a decoration given to people unworthy of the honor. Novalis' vita confirms that Uncle Wilhelm remained a force throughout the poet's short life.

I had earlier referred to the profound sadness I felt toward the end of the book when the inevitability becomes clear. At some point it occurs to Sophie, the mere child, just how special her Fritz is, her family adores him. If she was at first surprised and later a bit overwhelmed by the attention of a grownup, it is quite likely that she did become genuinely fond of him, anticipating and then missing the sound of his horse's hooves signaling his arrival.

Her lustrous hair had been a magnetic attraction for Fritz and we learn, casually, that he knew Sophie had become bald -- and yet it made no difference. She was still his "Philosophy". And when the smitten Erasmus asked for a lock of her hair at the engagement party (where the skeptical invited guests, dubious and prepared not to like her, noted with satisfaction that she wore her head suitably covered!!), Sophie just laughed -- her mother did that a lot too, what a rejoinder ! Poor Erasmus had no clue.

There is another poignant moment late in the tale when Sophie has come home, essentially to die, which she doesn't know. Her admirable sister Friederike, die Mandelsloh, is keeping everything in check; the boisterous stepfather has given up his risque jokes; still, in the face of what must have been all too clear by then, Sophie's mother and stepfather Rockenthien seek out Sophie's old tutor and succeed in having him come back for a lesson despite his initial unwillingness.

You may recall the scene (chapter 54) : The tutor ("Magister") had earlier banned everyone from Sophie's room, but then Rockenthien himself brought everyone back, the younger noisy children, the servants, some of them newly-hired and not yet known by name ('a wonderful chance to learn something', he shouted), and above all the dogs who jumped up on the bed and licked Sophie's face.

"The Magister Kegel closed his book. 'After all, these people were born for joy,' he thought". (Page 238 in the large-print copy of The Blue Flower.)

I know we are on borrowed time here, and I am sorry I am late with these reflections. But I will get to the point of the blue flower directly, especially in light of ine's beautiful interpretation in post # 299 (I think it was).

Ine, you say "We are left with the importance of death and how the characters reacted to it. They were quite familiar and accepting of it. " This is something I hadn't realized until you spelled it out - and how right you are. Indeed, that acceptance of death as almost mundane may explain why the incident with the Bernhard down at the river early in the book - the one where he almost drowns - struck me as so odd. He was close to death, and yet the incident was portrayed in a purely matter of fact way that mystified me. Your other examples of this are but additional evidence of this view.

I too reacted to the use of the term "angel" to describe the Bernhard, and also thought it was used more to describe him as "otherworldly" or "not long for this world," than gentle or saintlike - which he most definitely was not.

The treatment of Auguste - from the early changing of her name to her banishment - after giving birth - to the unheated top of the house - was ghastly. Was this the fate of women of the era after giving birth prodigiously? Given this treatment, is it any wonder that Fritz chose an entirely unsuitable girl as his mate? Who was his role model, after all?

Traude, was the "civil service" inherent in the "salt mine administrator" job a financial necessity for someone such as Fritz - a means of financing his extracurricular (and ultimately central) philosophical musings? Or was the job necessary for some other reason? Why did Fritz care so much what his father thought - whether he approved of his choice of mate or employment.

Betty - where are you?? Would love to hear your final views.

Traude, thank you for pointing out Fitzgerald's odd use of Dietmahler as a device. I took thought he would take on momentous importance as the book went on, and he all but disappeared. I wondered if Fitzgerald also used him as a counterpoint to the dreamy philosphical approach of Fritz's - he, with his rational, medical background saw things from a very different point of view.

Yes, Sarah. The Hardenbergs were impecunious. They had only their title to fall back on, and it was one of the lower nobility. Freiherr = Baron, Freifrau = Baroness. The beauty was faded. The properties were bankrupt; what was left, as in Schloeben, was a mere shadow of its former self, the structure was so dilapidated, the stairs in such poor repair, that the servants had to use ladders (!) to get up to their garrets. And yet it was "home" to the mother and to the children abd they were moved. At the sight of Schloeben, where the family and entourage stopped before going on to Jena to visit the ailing Sophie, Fitzgerald tells the reader that "Karl was moved to tears, sentimental as all military men--" The last 5 words are just one example of her epigrammatic formulations.

Turning to a reading of chapter 46, Visitors, I have a problem. Not necessarily with the narrative citing Friederike's "Daybook", the literal translation of the German "TAGEBUCH". The word "diary" would of course have been more helpful.

My problem is with the sister's diary entry of July 7 , which has to do with Goethe's visit. We are told (page 201 in the large-print edition) that the day was to quote, "dull and windy, the windows must stay shut, but they do not fit properly. There is a draught, we know that already, but I go closer and confirm it, it is like a skewer. The great man of letters will risk pneumonia, and that must always ber held against us." What danger is there of a draft in JULY, in MID SUMMER (!), when only HOT air would come in if the window were thrown open ? And why is it that the Great Man's welfare and his risk of pneumonia is more important than that of poor coughing Sophie who was at much greater risk ??

You will have to forgive me, but as an attentive reader I find that TOTALLY incongruous - anywhere, in any century, when windows lack adequateinsulation; BUT TH IS WAS SUMMER, not the dead of winter with snow blowing in through the cracks ! And yes, I have experienced that in my time.

I am aware that we are quite beyond the time allotted for discussion of this book and I will not, therefore, elaborate on the blue flower dreams and other allusions in Fitzgerald's book.

Rather, I would like to hark back to Novalis's fragmentary novel, Heinrich von Ofterdingen, from which Fitzgerald drew her inspiration.

According to the internet information, its English translation is "in progress", and from all indications, the progress is slow.

It was interesting to see from the German text, to which I found access, that the fictive Heinrich von Ofterdingen had a loving, respectful relationship with his parents, and it is the Father (!!) to whom the first dreams of the blue flower are attributed in the fragment. More than one person in the fragment is in search of the elusive mysterious blue flower.

I have the pertinent passages in the German version, but I do have difficulty with the available English translation - any linguist/translator by tranining may have questions. Irrespective of precise formulation, we are concerned with a symbol, potent enough to inspire later romanticists to adopt the blue flower as their symbol. AFTER Heinrich von Oferdingen, that is.

I regret that for personal reasons I was unable to participate more actively in this discussion. And I hope my belated reflections have not undly delayed the scheduled proceedings.

Many thanks to you all. Sarah, ine, MaryPage, Betty, and everyone else.

and all others who shared in discussions of The Blue Flower. Since this was the first time I joined you, I want to tell you how much I enjoyed your company. It's too bad we can't go on, because Traude brought up some interesting subjects, a.o. the sometimes ironical tone of the writer, which I found irritating. However, I enjoyed the experience, and admired many other things in this fine writer. ine

Since Sarah has not officially closed the discussion, I may perhaps be permitted to add a few more comments, especially about the blue flower in the fragmentary Heinrich von Ofterdingen.

There is much about dreams -- about living in far-off lands, wild unknown regions, times of war and riot, alternating with peaceful 'coexistence'(as we would call it now) with different tribes (sic) of humanity; about a grotto and a pool quivering and trembling in all the colors of the rainbow.

It is not totally clear WHO the dreamer is (there is more than one), or when a dream ends and another begins, or whether the perceived waking state is not also a dream.

What I found breath-taking is the vivid (PRESCIENT!?) description of the grotto-- it so perfectly evoked my memory of the famous Blue Grotto in Capri, though it is unlikely that Novalis ever saw it, except in his boundless imagination.

The internet source "Aquarium" quoted the pertinent German passage, billed as "the discovery of the blue flower from Heinrich von Ofterdingen" and it is available in English. I made a few changes and will cite it in my next post --

Here is the English version of the first blue flower mention.

He found himself lying on the soft floor of a meadow at the edge of a well whose waters spouted forth into the air and seemed to become lost in it. Dark-blue rocks with multicolored veins were visible some distance away; the light surrounding him was brighter and mellower than ordinary daylight, the sky a blackish-blue and altogether clear. But what attracted him with irresistible force was a tall, light-blue flower which stood initially right by the well and touched him with its broad shiny leaves. All around it were innumerable other flowers in myriad colors whose sweet fragrance perfumed the air. Still, he had eyes for the blue flower only and gazed upon it for the longest time with a feeling of inexpressible tenderness. Just when he meant to approach it at last, it began to move and to change : the leaves became more lustrous, hugging the stem; the flower leaned toward him as if to beckon, the petals opened to form a flattened blue collar, and within it there floated a delicate face.

What may be significant in this paragraph, at least for the translator, are the nuances of blue.

The rocks are "dunkelblau" = dark blue;

the sky is "schwarzblau" = a blue so dark as to be almost black, and

perhaps in a way the description of the blue flower as being "hellblau" = light blue (!).

For ine I hope your daughter had or is still having a fine time in Holland. I will always remember most fondly a carefree summer in Scheveningen .

Regards.

I love it when a discussion goes past the "appointed" time to end - it means there is still life in it, and I want to encourage that! So talk on - I'm here as long as you are!

Traude, I love this version, it's beautiful language. It was reassuring to hear that it reminded you of the famous Blue Grotto in Capri, because I didn't think a grotto had that many blue colours. What struck me that, here again, all around [him] were innumerable other flowers in myriad colors ... but he had eyes for the blue flower only... We've started with Borus Pasternak's Dr. Zhivago, and are just discussing a moment in Yura's life where he comes face to face with a force which he can never forget. Ella asked us what we thought about it, and I had to think of The Blue Flower. Don't ask me yet to formulate it yet, I have to think about it a bit more. My daughter, Magda, is enjoying Holland immensely.

How neat to hear you had a carefree summer in Scheveningen at one time! I love the North Sea and its wide beaches! ine

Regardless of their flaws - the inconsistencies Traude and others have noted, for example - I found these two books by Penelope Fitzgerald to be fascinating and memorable. They - and your thoughts on them - will be with me for a long time to come. I thank you all for your participation - you have enriched my life!

Sarah