Christmas Carol, A ~ Charles Dickens ~ 12/04 ~ Book Club Online
patwest
October 30, 2004 - 07:31 am
Etext for "A Christmas Carol" by Dickens, Charles,
1812-1870.
Online text of "A Christmas Carol" by Charles Dickens
All you need to know about "A Christmas Carol"
In Memoriam W. M. Thackery by Charles Dickens
"At Scrooge's nephew Fred's Christmas party they play Blind Man's Buff, a popular Victorian parlor game."
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A Christmas Carol
~ by ~
Charles Dickens
"I have
endeavoured in this Ghostly
little book, to raise the
Ghost of an Idea, which
shall not put my readers out
of humour with themselves,
with each other, with the
season, or with me. May it
haunt their houses
pleasantly, and no one wish
to lay it.
Their
faithful Friend and Servant,
C. D. December, 1843."
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A Prize Turkey hanging in the window for your thoughts on:
Stave Five: The End of It:
1. "God bless us, Every One!" What a contrast Stave 5 is! Scrooge is so filled with joy he doesn't know what to do: "I am as light as a feather; I am as happy as an angel…." As Scrooge sets about to make amends and his way in a bright new world, let's puzzle over some of the strange terms and consequences: --- …"and making a perfect Laocoon of himself…" Who or what is Lacocoon?
---What does "Walk-ER!" mean?
---- Who was Joe Miller?
What is "smoking bishop?"
What does "The Total Abstinance Principle" mean?
2. What influence has Dickens had on English and American customs?
3. What was the consequence in real life of that prize turkey in the story?
4. "…he was early at the office the next morning…" The next morning was St. Stephen's Day, which is called Boxing Day in England. It did not become a banking holiday until 1871, and is not celebrated in the US.
What is Boxing Day , and why is this day appropriate for Scrooge to raise Bob Cratchit's salary?
5. "A great many back-payments are included in it…." Do you think Scrooge will remain changed? What do you think it was which finally changed him? What in his character might hint at the possibility to continue his good intentions?
6. WAS it a dream?
7. Could Dickens have made his points without the Ghosts?
8. What is the single most memorable part of the story, to you?
An apple, a pear, a plum, a cherry: any good thing to make us all merry, tell us your thoughts!!
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Schedule
Week 5: Stave (Chapter) V: The End of it
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Discussion Leader: Ginny
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Ginny
November 10, 2004 - 09:19 am
Ho ho ho….....er? Halloween is over, right? Have you been to the stores, yet? It's not even Thanksgiving and in the Wal Marts here Santa and his reindeer leer at you from every shelf.
Why this push every year to have Christmas in November? What does it mean?
Well we here in the Books are not to be left behind, we also are au courant, so it's my special pleasure to announce our first ever reading of Dickens's A Christmas Carol.
We'll discuss and compare the movies, there's a new one out, and argue who is the best Scrooge and who the best Marley and which production we like best.
Those of us with annotated versions, of which there are tons, will be able to look up and probably get in a fun argument over the different annotations, but we'll know once and for all, what "The Minister's Cat" is!
Don't miss this one, everybody should read A Christmas Carol at Christmas, it puts the rest of the commercial world in its place, a story as timely as this morning! Sign in here of your interest!
AND for your pleasure I have an entire book, something like 400 woodcuts for your enjoyment on this theme, what a time we will have. Ho ho ho.
Welcome!
Scrawler
November 10, 2004 - 10:35 am
Oh! Count me on this one. I love this book. My favorite Chrismas story. I remember as a kid I watched A Christmas Carol in black and white and was scared out of my wits. See you all there.
I know what you mean about the stores have Christmas decoration earlier and earlier. At this rate I wouldn't be surprised to see Christmas in July!
ALF
November 10, 2004 - 10:53 am
I hate it, I hate it, when they start playing Christmas Carols BEFORE Thanksgiving. I always make a point of telling the clerks and/or managers if I can find one. The clerks report that they hate it too but business is $$$$. The shelves are all stocked with winter decorations, the carols are playing and I am left declaring "humbug" to It's Beginning to Look a Lot Like Christmas." (Particularly in the state of Florida.) It'll begin to look a lot like Christmas when I disembark from SW Airlines in Albany in the middle of a snow storm in December.
Bah humbug- Andy!!!
Scrawler
November 10, 2004 - 11:52 am
Ginny, can you give me the name of the publisher for the copy we'll be reading from. I tried to go to Amazon and Barnes and Noble, but they have well over 800 copies of various books. I want to be sure I get the right one.
Thanks in advance for your help.
anneofavonlea
November 10, 2004 - 01:09 pm
I love a Christmas Carol as well, and absolutely refuse to allow my joy to be debased by commercialism. Frankly one needs to be parcelling off gifts now to those overseas, and each day the feeling sneaks up on one, and I for one would love a trip to the big department stores in Brisbane, where staff sing carols in the morning, and beautiful decorations abound.
Just like it was for Scrooge, christmas is what we make it,and this discussion would be a great start.
Anneo
Phyll
November 10, 2004 - 02:13 pm
"Why this push every year to have Christmas in November? What does it mean?" And in Cabaret we find the cynical answer:
"Money makes the world go around
The world go around
The world go around
Money makes the world go around
It makes the world go 'round.
A mark, a yen, a buck, or a pound
A buck or a pound
A buck or a pound
Is all that makes the world go around,
That clinking clanking sound
Can make the world go 'round."
As for being starry-eyed, Ginny....don't every change, please! And since I am feeling cynical these days I think I really need to re-read
A Christmas Carol so I believe I will join you, if I may.
jeanlock
November 10, 2004 - 02:18 pm
I'm going to use one of the online versions--the 2nd one in the list to the left. I'll print it out a few pages at a time. And my favorite film version remains the Alastair Sim version in black and white. I can almost recite the lines along with the characters. In fact, when I'm 'discussing' here, I'll have it playing in the TV/VCR above the PC.
Onward to December.
colkots
November 11, 2004 - 03:55 pm
Liked that one the best.
Will join in Colkot
Ginny
November 11, 2004 - 05:44 pm
Welcome, welcome, welcome, All!
Welcome here, right in this hall~!
Have a glass of punch or bring a chair
Before the fire and tell us where
Your first memorable holiday of any kind came.
And let me now call you all, each by name!
Welcome Scrawler, Colkot, jeanlock, and Andy,
Andrea, Phyll and from Australia, Anneofavonlea!
Might as well get in the spirit of the thing! hahaaha
Why, Phyll, what a sweet thing to say, that's an early Christmas gift I'll treasure, thank you!
Scrawler, we'll read no certain text, we once thought to get a certain text but that was for the annotated ones, we found that we all (those of us WITH annotated texts) have different ones of those! I'd say get one that pleases you, as you say there are a million versions. I like personally the one printed by Lippencott, with all the Arthur Rackham illustrations, it's from Britain originally but is from 1972, I've about worn it out. I have seen some very nice ones at B&N tho, newer ones. This one's ISBN is 0-397-00033-2, I imagine it's out of print it's about to fall apart. I think ANY version that's not condensed would be fine and as you can see, good point Jeanlock, it's available online as well. I'm going to have to restrain myself from putting holly in my posts!!
jeanlock
November 12, 2004 - 06:10 am
Wow, I've never been mentioned in a poem before (at least not since my late husband wrote some for me). I love it.
Memorable Christmas?
It would have to be the one when--because I tended to get overexcited (I suppose now they'd diagnose ADHD)---they never told me that it was almost Christmas. I just came down one morning, and there it all was. Tree, fire in fireplace, toys, etc. Try getting away with that now!
Saw in our local paper that Santa arrives at the local mall tomorrow. It used to be the day after Thanksgiving.
pedln
November 12, 2004 - 07:41 am
Jeanlock, it would be impossible to do as your family did -- and wasn't that a thrill for you. How did we get to this point? And what has been lost in the process?
YOu've reminded me of a reading years ago -- about some "historical" -- colonial? pioneer? -- boys who had to go to school on Christmas. Because they didn't want to be there they thought they'd play some kind of trick on the teacher. They did, and then were surprised when the teacher gave them apples -- for Christmas. Not a particularly rousing anecdote, just a thought on how things have changed.
jeanlock
November 12, 2004 - 09:54 am
Pedln,
It's called 'progress'. And, frankly, I think I've lived to see just too darn much of it.
Scrawler
November 12, 2004 - 10:25 am
Love the poem and thanks for the information. Yak with you soon.
Oh! And yes no holly BEFORE Thanksgiving!!!!!!!!!!
bluebird24
November 15, 2004 - 08:45 pm
I want to join! I will read the online story you have here.
Ginny
November 16, 2004 - 05:35 am
What? What? No holly!!?? Holly grows all year long! hahahahaha WEll I will not call "Scrooge!" just yet! hahahaha no no, just kidding, (Have you noticed as we get older how much LESS strange and more sympathetic Scrooge appears as a character? Hmmm?) I love Marley. Marley is my favorite character in literature. I like him so much we named one of our dogs Marley. Long story but the words "Marley was dead, to begin with," rang thru my head when I first saw him, and he's a LOT not dead. hahahaa
Or do you not see Scrooge as more understandable as you've aged??
We will enjoy disussing this with the weight of our years (and other things) along for the ride.
Welcome Pedln and Bluebird!
ALF
November 16, 2004 - 05:57 am
Bah humbug. I do identify more with Scrooge as the years go on. I think that it's because as age takes its toll on us, we feel more comfortable being cantankerous, as he was. Many malcontents feel it's their right to grumble and belly-ache. They've earned it! Age brings added aches and pains and with it comes loud and distinct wailing. I think when folks reach this point, they honestly do not know how to recapture the essence of Christmas .
Scrawler
November 16, 2004 - 10:41 am
Personally, I think there is a little Scrooge in all of us. Does that mean that when it is all said and done that we all can follow the spirits and remember the past and present and perhaps get a vision of what is yet to come.
My favorite movie has always been the British black-and-white movie of the fifties. I don't remember who was in it, but it scared me to death. I think black-and-white movies are must more scary because of all the shadows. They are almost like film noir classics.
anneofavonlea
November 16, 2004 - 04:44 pm
at 61, but I am not in the slightest jaded by others treatment of christmas. The idea that christmas is only for the young is sad, what do the young know anyway.
Christmas like age is a state of mind, one I choose to foster. Actually you would think that maturity would remind us of the need for good things, and encourage us to enjoy them, when they are around.
Anneo
horselover
November 16, 2004 - 05:59 pm
Hi Gang,
I've been away, moving from NY to CA--a project I would not wish upon my worst enemy (of course, at this time of the year, we have no enemies). I hope to get my stuff unpacked by Christmas, but am sooo lazy. This is a good selection for my return to regular reading (not too long, familiar but always new, and timely. Someone--I think it was Woody Allen--once said that he really liked Scrooge until he got all soppy at the end. Poor Scrooge! He's become such a symbol of miserliness that we really seldom think about how he got that way. See you all after Thanksgiving.
ALF
November 17, 2004 - 06:42 am
I can commiserate with you. We've been in our new home for 8 weeks already and I'm still sorting thru "stuff." You're not being lazy, it's just natures way of rebelling.
horselover
November 18, 2004 - 12:59 am
Thanks,Andy. That makes me feel so much better. When my sister moved, she stayed up until four in the morning every night unpacking, so after two weeks of looking at all the boxes in my garage, I really felt inferior. That's what's so great about you guys--always there with helpful suggestions and emotional support. I've missed these book discussions a lot and hope to have more time for them now.
Ginny
November 18, 2004 - 06:44 am
Welcome back, Horselover, now known to me as HL!
We wondered where you are, so glad to see you: take your shoes off, sit a spell,
Have some wassail, lift the cup,
Have some food, or just sup
On the Comment Feast presented here!
Am looking foward to this, and never fear,
The rhymes WILL stop but it's the holiday, you see!
So gather round, all around the Christmas Tree!
(Did you know Dickens and this work almost single handedly revived Christmas celebrations as we know them?) Find out more anon.....
Scrawler
November 18, 2004 - 10:19 am
"Godey's Lady's Book," the women's publication of the 1800s that did so much to nationalize Thanksgiving, also played a role in popularizing festive Christmas practices. Through its lighthearted and humorous drawings, its household-decorating hints, its recipes for Christmas confections and meals, and its instruction for homemade tree ornaments, the magazine convinced thousands of housewives that the Nativity was not just a fervent holy day but could also be a festive holiday.
colkots
November 20, 2004 - 05:44 pm
I have mixed feelings about a "Christmas Carol"
even though I'm from England.
By the way, did anyone happen to see a funny little
movie called a "Carol Christmas' on the Hallmark
Channel last year?
Colkot
Ginny
November 21, 2004 - 08:10 pm
Oh good Colkot, what are your mixed feelings? We are about how we feel in our book discussions, we love to "agree to disagree!"
ALF
November 22, 2004 - 06:33 am
Mixed feelings are what make our discussions the cream of the crop on the internet. We have unparalled opinions and thoughts that we offer and dissect.
Being British would add another dimension to this story. Are you a Dickens advocate?
colkots
November 22, 2004 - 08:50 am
I forgot that I was on the computer at the center and had to login.
I'm going to my daughter in California for Christmas this year.
Very unusual.
It was a conversation with her regarding her performances in
the Chicago Goodman's Theatre Production of a Christmas Carol
some 20 years back. She was still in High School then. It is
surprising how an early imprint of Christmas customs stays with you,
and what a sense of loss can be felt if Christmas as you knew it
does not exist any more.
Dickens advocate... not sure. Colkot
Ann Alden
November 24, 2004 - 08:10 am
May we all appreciate our many blessings tomorrow here in the states. Its our turkey day and we do overeat!
Here's hoping that we will here on Dec 1st to discuss this book. This is a favorite of mine so here's to Dickens!!
cpmyr
November 24, 2004 - 08:22 am
I believe the teacher was a Miss Lewis. Tall and thin. Very proper and prim. She chose a "Christmas Carol" for our fifth grade class to read aloud. I was the ghost of Christmas Past. Being the new kid in town I thought it was quite a priviledge and honor to be a "ghost". I always thought they were the main characters in the tale. If it wasn't for them- there would be no story. And from that day on, my favorite Christmas adventure is this Dickens classic. If you ever get the chance to see one of the Bloomsburg Theatre Ensemble productions of this story, you are in for a real treat.
Ann Alden
November 24, 2004 - 08:29 am
Didn't someone here ask about the edition being used. I think we might all be using a different edition and it doesn't really matter but if you are going to order one, I recommend the edition "Dickens' A Christmas Carol" with 45 lost Dore engravings & 130 other Victorian Illustrations, hard cover. Its a collector's item offered for reasonable price of $19.95 and I believe that I bought it online from either B&N or Amazon. Its a keeper which I had to dig out of my Christmas decorations in the storage room when I remembered where the heck it was!! Hahaha!
In fact, here's a link to Amazon's used books and there's a brand new copy for $1.41 plus shipping. You can't beat that for a really nice book, with all those engravings by Dore whose folio engravings set the standard for the artistic expression of literary classics in the 1860's.
Ann Alden
November 24, 2004 - 11:46 am
Mippy
November 27, 2004 - 12:33 pm
Hi, everyone, and Happy Post-Thanksgiving!
I just wandered in here to see if Ginny was back
from her trip
and noticed an error in the header:
Kelsey Grammar's new version is on TV TOMORROW
SUNDAY, NOVEMBER 28th
Hope everyone can spread the word, and start to enjoy ... this weekend!
... and hope you are home safe and sound, Ginny!
patwest
November 27, 2004 - 03:16 pm
Thanks, Mippy -- for the heads-up on the NBC Christmas Carol. I have changed the heading.
Jeane
November 27, 2004 - 04:01 pm
Unfortunately many of us in San Francisco do not get NBC. I've written about this before. NBC now comes out of San Jose and their antenna isn't powerful enough to reach everyone in San Francisco. I can't afford to pay for cable so I am out of luck.
NBC appears to have a selfish greedy lock on several of the original Christmas movies. My other favorite Christmas movie is the original "Miracle on 34th Street." NBC ran it Thanksgiving day.
It is about faith and imagination.
Ginny
November 27, 2004 - 05:19 pm
Thank you Mippy!! And Pat for changing it in the heading. It may not be that much of a loss, Jeane, in that Grammar's Scrooge is not receiving very good reviews (but we'll give our own opinions, usually mine are the opposite of whatever they say)...(they DO say if you stay the course and watch it till the end it gets very good).
It's a remake of the musical that ran for years at Madison Square Garden, I've seen it, I thought it was cute, not great, but cute. Ben Vereen played one of the parts when I saw it, it was fun, lots of vigor. Apparently it's been redone, I like to study the Marleys in each production, and the Ghost of Christmas Past, in each, we'll see Dickens' own description when we read the book and see which movie we think was the most faithful. We'll have a good time comparing the various characters in all of them.
Some people like George C Scott's (the production was gorgeous) some people like Patrick Stewart's (wish I could have seen his one man show of A Christmas Carol on Broadway) and every year the Reginald Owen one is shown on television (this year TV Guide says "it wouldn't be Christmas without" Reginald Owen's Scrooge (it would, to me). It might be fun to talk about that expression, itself, "It wouldn't be Christmas without XXX," I think the sky's the limit here on all things topical.
I prefer the Alistair Sim Scrooge, but Grammer likes the Mr. Magoo version best! So we'll keep an open mind till we see.
Albert Finney's musical Scrooge had people dancing and singing out of the theater, and there's nothing wrong with THAT, either, I can sing it now, "Thank you very much, thank you very much, that's the nicest thing that anyone's ever done for me!" They are all different.
We might want to ask ourselves what they have in common, actually, the answer might be more than you'd think!! hahaaa
Malryn (Mal)
November 28, 2004 - 09:21 pm
I watched the Kelsey Grammer "A Christmas Carol" tonight.
I loved it.Mal
Homebody
November 29, 2004 - 12:10 am
I'm new here and stumbled upon this discussion just as I was watching the Kelsy Grammer show. I enjoyed the show - it was okay. It strayed quite a bit from the original, but that must be because it was based on the musical mentioned by Ginny. I haven't seen Patrick Stewart's version. I think the first movie with Alastair Sim was one of the truest. But honestly, my favorite is the Muppets' version. I love the music and I wait until after Thanksgiving to watch it and will hum the music all month.
One thing of note about Grammer's version - I thought it was interesting that when the ghost of Christmas past showed Scrouge his past, it was a scene where his father was arrested because of debts, and the young Scrouge ended up working in a boot factory instead of showing the young Scrouge sad and alone in a school during Christmas holiday. The interesting thing I found out while looking for info on Dickens was that this was what happened to Dickens, himself.
ta-ta -- Rusty Taylor
Ginny
November 29, 2004 - 06:33 am
Welcome, Malryn, I had to tape it because I went to bed early, I'm so glad you enjoyed it, Jason Alexander's Marley really put me off, so I hope to see the whole thing before I respond! I did like the chains song!
Welcome, Rusty, we are so glad to have you here, sounds like they did some interesting things with the plot, thank you for adding that information about Dickens' own childhood. Then again, VERY few people have actually READ A Christmas Carol, and it's very interesting how the movies actually try to get around the explanations of why he hated Fred so much. This is going to be FUN!!
Can't wait till the 1st, did any of the rest of you see last night's production?
patwest
November 29, 2004 - 06:58 am
I thought Kelsey Grammer as Scrooge was good. I like musicals and even though the story line was not followed exactly, I thought it a good program.
I have borrowed the Patrick Stewart video, and will watch it tomorrow.
normlet3
November 29, 2004 - 09:16 am
Hello Ginny and others. I signed up with your group. I need a booster shot for Christmas. I have some memories of the Christmas carol. I am Norm from MA. Thanks
Mippy
November 29, 2004 - 05:16 pm
Hi, everyone,
I also taped the show to watch another night, but
I did see the beginning, and it did not do much for me.
Reading the text on line yesterday worked great, however,
and the real Dickens -- without music -- is my favorite.
... planning to hit the video rental store to look for the Patrick Stewart version ...
Ginny, has anyone suggested doing another Charles Dickens' book, perhaps in the spring? Have they all been done in SeniorNet?
Ginny
November 29, 2004 - 07:14 pm
Welcome, Norm from MA, it must look like a Dickens Christmas Card all winter there, welcome!
Mippy, no nobody has mentioned it, perhaps we'll enjoy this so much we might try, I love Dickens.
I'm looking forward to our start here on DEcember 1, I think you'll all enjoy the great additional stuff we'll add to your virtual feast of Dickens. Wednesday is the day, it's very hard to believe December is upon us so soon.
Everybody bring up a chair and join in, we'll read a Stave a week, does that sound like a plan? That should put us in the holiday mood and keep us there?
Ann Alden
November 29, 2004 - 08:49 pm
What the heck is a "STAVE"? I way behind here already!! Boo hoo!
Jeane
November 29, 2004 - 10:21 pm
I went into my copy of A Christmas Carol and looked for staves; Couldn't find any. I'll just have to guesstimate.
Malryn (Mal)
November 29, 2004 - 10:51 pm
stave (stâv) noun
1. A narrow strip of wood forming part of the sides of a
barrel, tub, or similar structure.
2. A rung of a ladder or chair.
3. A staff or cudgel.
4. Music. See staff1.
5. A set of verses; a stanza.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation. All rights reserved.
normlet3
November 30, 2004 - 03:43 am
Hi Ginny. I am using the online text. It has 5 chapters. We had the winterwonderland look a few weeks ago. I have A Dickens Biography by Fred Kaplan, 1988. I am not a reader. I need to do more. We are in for some rain. GBY Norm
Ginny
November 30, 2004 - 04:20 am
hahaha Ann, and thank you Malryn, what, they aren't called STAVES? I thought they were!! AHA in my book they are, what we'll do here? Is you'll ignore the bleatings of the Discussion Leader and contribute yourselves (I think most of you are used to that at this point anyway) hahaah I'm looking forward to hearing what all you have to say!!
I know many of you have the Annotated Versions, and I am so hoping you will help me out, using them and the vast resources of the Internet, to bring us here a cornucopia of exciting background and additional information! I am counting on that, in fact.
I agree, Ann, the entgravings are wonderful and I hope to bring some here also from some I have but anybody who can find any illustrations, PLEASE feel free to make links to them or post them if small enough for SN guidelines!
Stave is note #2 in my annotation so will say what they say about it: Stave . An archaic form of "staff," a stanza of a poem or song. [as Malryn said]. Dickens here extended the pretense of his story being "a Christmas carol in prose" by calling its chapters verses. He maintained the conceit in the two subsequent Christmas Books by setting off their chapters in accordance with the stories' titles. The Chimes (1844) is divided into four, "quarters," like the tolling of a clock and the divisions of The Cricket on the Hearth (1845) were called "chirps."
Now all that information is found in Michael Patrick Hearn's The Annotated Christmas Carol, which several of you have and I know some of you have other versions, so you can feel free to ask ANY question here~!!!!
And while that information is NOT deathless and NOT important, I hope it adds to your general cheer and interest, and I do hope that this discussion will be FILLED, with not only the spirit of Christmas Past, Present and Future, but all sorts of additional fun facts and information!!
And NORM!! You have in addition to the snow I want here, a biography of Dickens! Please feel free to bring here ANY and ALL facts you learn! I have never read ont!
We will take one Chapter or Stave a week starting Wednesday! Expect the first when the bell tolls one!
colkots
November 30, 2004 - 09:21 am
Picked up a copy of all the Dickens Christmas stories
in this wonderful store which carries a lot of gently
used books.. this one is dated 1951...
And no, because I was staying with my oldest son's family, Kelsey
Grammar's version of the Christmas Carol was not on the viewing list.
I had just returned from New York with my younger son..
I'm sure it was quite interesting, especially with Jesse Martin
as the Ghost of Christmas Present.
Colkot
Scrawler
November 30, 2004 - 10:27 am
I have both the online and the book and as far as I can tell they are both the same, so we shouldn't have any trouble.
Yak with you all soon. In the mean time I'll try to keep warm in this 32 degree temperature and dropping fast. It so supposed to get in the twenties later today. I don't remember it being this cold so early in December in Portland, Oregon. Bah! Humbug!
Stigler
November 30, 2004 - 01:48 pm
Thank you for providing the text of the book so that it may be read online.
I have ordered the Patrick Stewart version of "A Christmas Carol" and it should arrive tomorrow.
I look forward to this discussion.
Judy
colkots
November 30, 2004 - 07:49 pm
Here in Chicago, we are promised snow. Right now it's raining, but
in the 'burbs there is snow already. I expect to wake up to
see some flakes but now it's not cold enough.
As I have to be in at the Senior Center tomorrow morning
not really looking forward to it.
Ho,ho,ho!!!
Colkot
Ann Alden
November 30, 2004 - 08:05 pm
Here is a link to the story of Dickens plus his illustrator, John Leech. If you scroll down the page and click on each of the four wood cuts, they will enlarge and you will get a better idea of what illustrating with wood cuts meant.
Dickens' Christmas Carol w/woodcuts plus handcolored etchings by John Leech
Ann Alden
November 30, 2004 - 08:26 pm
Which shows a plethora of illustrations done by Phiz/Dickens. Lots of clickables here that enlarge beautifully. You have to use this link and then click on the pictures which take you to the titles of pictures from David Copperfield. When you click on a title, you are taken to that chapter with an illustration. Click on the illustration! Whoa! Gives you a good idea of what they were doing back then. Wonderful stuff!
The Phiz Illustrations of David Copperfield
Ginny
December 1, 2004 - 05:05 am
Well a bright good morning to all of you as we begin our reading of the incomparable A Christmas Carol by Charles Dickens.
I can't think of a better time of year to read this, already each morning on the television we are hit by more and more frantic expressions of the season, more urgently intoned "there are ONLY 23 shopping days LEFT!" from announcers who apparently don't get out much, more admonitions to have the house decorated perfectly, the food cooked, all the "necessary presents" bought and ready, "all the trimmings" necessary to the season firmly in operation. The season has become one of MUST, DO, RUN, COOK, BE HAPPY, BE READY, SEE WHAT EVERYBODY ELSE IS DOING, WHY AREN'T YOU? LOOK HERE'S YET ANOTHER ELABORATE TREE LIGHTING, PARADE, MUST MUST MUST DO AND BE AND FEEL.
It seems every year it gets worse, it's almost as if the poor normal person if there is such a thing, has to grab on, hang on and try to jump on this hysterical train of MUST before it leaves the station.
Suicides are more likely to happen at this time of the year than any other, the season, the holiday season has become a nightmare.
What a contrast the character of Scrooge is, how starkly he stands out, and against what? Let's enjoy the superior writing and ask ourselves questions that perhaps we can't answer about this book.
Thank you Ann for those super links, the first one particularly is fabulous and contains much important material, such as a description of Camden Town and why Dickens chose it, there is a wealth of information on the internet including some questions on the Spark Notes site (precious few, unfortunately) that we can also use. But let's ask our own. Let's look at what Dickens is saying here and try to figure out not only why but what it means to each of us in 2004?
When we discuss a book we like to act as a collective brain and take up any questions you may have had to add to the general experience. These questions are put here, and will be updated weekly, so that each of you may have a chance to give your own opinions about them, so please just choose one or two to give your thoughts on and leave the rest for somebody else.
Of course since Dickens wrote this, a lot has changed, but how different does Scrooge seem to you in 2004? Does he seem particularly evil? Do you know any Scrooges personally? The word has become a vocabulary word, but as you read of his solitary journey home and his life in general, note how Dickens makes him scare even a caroler away, but do you feel more pity for him or understanding of him or do you feel loathing?
What would he have been like in 2004, is there a modern equivalent? He's not a law breaker, he's not a pedophile, what is your assessment so far of his character?
What of the times, how would he have been staring at a television all day blaring out forced joy? What do we know of what Christmas was like WHEN he wrote this? When DID he write this? What were the conditions of the time? WAS Scrooge an anomaly or was he characteristic of the day? Is this some kind of social commentary, do each of the characters stand for something? Is it symbolic, and if so, of what? WE read that Dickens constantly redid this work, constantly working to refine it, if it's that carefully done, why does he repeat Marley was dead 4 times in the beginning?
What is your personal reaction to the way the First Stave or Chapter starts out? Why all this about a door nail? What does that add to the whole? What of the….have you noticed that Dickens uses personification a great deal? Inanimate objects take on a life, as if they were alive and feeling, for instance Marley's lodgings are portrayed as "it must have run there when it was a young house, playing at hide and seek with other houses…" What effect does this have on the story and the reader? How does it contrast with the stark reality of Scrooge himself?
What of the humor, the puns? IS there humor? What about the pun on shade when Scrooge is speaking to Marley and the came down handsomely? What of the strange archaic terms? Scrooge's "dip," to "trim a candle," the "flaring links," Marley's "pigtail" and chin cloth, what is Bedlam , what's "half a crown," what's "gruel," why is Marley's face compared to a "bad lobster in a dark cellar?" What's a treadmill, what's a Workhouse, what's Mansion House, what's a hob?
And then there's what appears deliberate: why did Dickens misquote the carol God Bless You, Merry Gentlemen? Why is Scrooge carrying a ruler and what's all that about a nose? Why is Marley dragging a chain, that's not the norm for English Ghosts and what's on that chain? Why does Scrooge refer to Marley as "it?" What's the time frame of this piece? Why has it been compared to Dante's Comedy? How does it relate to Dante's Comedy?
And there's more!! We will want to figure out when the Spirits come, why they appear like they do, and what they say, but for now, for this first week, what were the questions YOU had at the beginning here of the book? How do you feel about this tremendous opening to the story? The writing is as good as any suspense film, it frightened even me, did it you?
What struck you the most in this opening chapter?
I am really surprised at how faithful to Dickens' own text the Alistair Sim movie really is? Have any of you noticed that? I have seen IT so many times I can recite it and therefore I see almost nothing in it that's not here and nothing here that's not there, I can hear Marley saying, "but I see it, notwithstanding," of the toothpick.
And of course Scrooge raises the $64,000 question quite early: IS this all a dream caused by a fragment of an underdone potato? What are your favorites lines from this opening book??
WOW!! And here I thought I would have no questions and that appears to be all I have, hahahaa welcome in, sit by the fire, a bowl of gruel for your thoughts!
ALF
December 1, 2004 - 06:43 am
I am unable to link to the online text. The message appears quicker than Marley's ghost that the page can not be displayed.
Malryn (Mal)
December 1, 2004 - 07:34 am
Phyll
December 1, 2004 - 08:10 am
"...dating from about 1350. Its meaning is disputed but most likely it referred to the costly metal nails hammered into the outer doors of the wealthy (most people used the much cheaper wooden pegs), which were clinched on the inside of the door and therefore were "dead," that is, could not be used again." --Dictionary.com
Already I learned something. I've heard this expression all my life and never knew the origin until now. Interesting.
normlet3
December 1, 2004 - 09:18 am
Hello Ginny and others. This book discussion is a new experience since I have been out of school. It is also helping me with my computer skills. I started to print the introduction and ran out of black ink (LOL). I think that Gruel is watered down oatmeal. It is rainning hard in MA. Just to let you know that I am here. Ann thanks for the link to the book. I ordered it. GBY Norm
Ann Alden
December 1, 2004 - 09:24 am
And will now try reading the book. I find that working with two windows I can read the posts here and read the text right along with them. Its very handy and I didn't even need my book except for the history of Dore and Dickens. And, the history of illustrating books. So, I am going to read and come back later.
Malryn (Mal)
December 1, 2004 - 09:44 am
Bedlam was an asylum for the insane. The name is taken from the word "Bethlehem" in the name of the hospital, St Mary of Bethlehem outside Bishopsgate in London where this dismal place for mentally ill people was located.
Dickens' Scrooge should be around today to tell this to people who shop until they drop for Christmas presents they can't afford to buy with a credit card and no cash to pay the bill.
"What's Christmas time to you but a time for paying bills without money . . .?"
Mal
Scrawler
December 1, 2004 - 11:40 am
"If we were not perfectly convinced that Hamlet's Father died before the play began, there would be nothing more remarkable in his taking a stroll at night, in an easterly wind, upon his own ramparts, than there would be in any other middle-aged gentleman rashly turning out after dark in a breezy spot--say Saint Paul's Churchyard for instance -- literally to astonish his son's weak mind."
In this paragraph Dickins shows his sense of humor as well as driving home the point that "Marley was dead!"
"Oh! But he was a tight-fisted hand at the grind-stone, Scrooge! a squeezing, wrenching, grasping, scraping, clutching, covetous, old sinner! Hard and sharp as flint, from which no steel had ever struck out generous fire; secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster. The cold within him froze his old features, nipped his pointed nose, shriveled his cheek, stiffened his gait; made his eyes red, his thin lips blue and spoke out shrewedly in his grating voice. A frosty rime was on his head, and on his eyebrows, and his wiry chin. He carried his own low temperature always about with him; he iced his office in the dogdays; and didn't thaw it one degree at Christmas."
What do you think? Did Dickins make his point with the description of Scrooge? "...a squeezing, wrenching, grasping, scraping, clutching, covetous, old sinner!" Can't you hear Dickens speaking these words out loud. They send a chill up my spine. Does anyone know what: "A frosty rime..." means? I liked the way Dickens describes Scrooge as: "He carried his own low temperature always about with him..." This sentence alone would describe Scrooge. I can't help wonder if today's writers would have described Scooge in the same way. Somehow Dickens' description gets down to the very soul of the man. The way Scrooge acted makes me think that the man not only had a "cold-heart" but also had "a cold soul" or perhaps more the point "a soul that was slowly dying".
"It was cold, bleak, biting weather: foggy withal: and he could hear the people in the court outside go wheezing up and down, beating their hands upon their breasts, and stamping their feet upon the pavement stones to warm them. The city clocks had only just gone three, but it was quite dark already -- it had not been light all day: and candles were flaring in the windows of the neighbouring office, like ruddy smears upon the palpale brown air. The fog came pouring in at every chink and keyhole, and was so dense without, that although the court was of the narrowest, the houses opposite were mere phantoms. To see the the dingy cloud come drooping down, obscuring everything, one might have thought that Nature lived hard by and was brewing on a large scale."
What atmosphere Dickens creates with this paragraph. It almost makes you want to pull the covers up over your head like when you were a kid, but at the same time it also makes you want to know what happens next. I love that sentence: "To see the dingy cloud come drooping down, obscuring everything, one might have thought that Nature lived hard by and was brewing on a large scale."
ALF
December 1, 2004 - 12:14 pm
"I have endeavoured in this Ghostly little book, to raise the Ghost of an Idea, which shall not put my readers out of humour with themselves, with each other, with the season, or with me. May it haunt their houses pleasantly, and no one wish to lay it."
LOVE IT! Dickens asked and his wish was granted. We have been blessed with this tale for many, many years.
ALF
December 1, 2004 - 12:28 pm
Scrawler, you’re right, he was as dead as a door-nail! I haven’t heard that declared in years, my dad used to use that expression. Marley was a goner, that’s for sure; bloodless and cadaverous he roams freely throughout this story. Was he spiritless and unresponsive as a partner with Scrooge, in life, as he is in death?
Poor ole Scrooge, I feel sorry for him. Dickens describes him to a tee, the old curmudgeon that he portrays. His soul has departed while on earth; his spirit extinguished and stifled. "No wind that blew was bitterer than he." How can one not mourn for a being such as he? Instinctively the animals cringed and fled when he neared. He was unable to answer his nephew, with any retort other than "humbug" when the nephew asked him what he had to be so miserly (oops-miserable ) about when he, indeed was the rich man. He wished that his uncle, too, would open his heart, freely.
Malryn (Mal)
December 1, 2004 - 01:45 pm
"St. Dunstan was one of the greatest saints of the Anglo-Saxon Church; born near Glastonbury on the estate of his father, Heorstan, a West Saxon noble. His mother, Cynethryth, a woman of saintly life, was miraculously forewarned of the sanctity of the child within her. She was in the church of St. Mary on Candleday, when all the lights were suddenly extinguished. Then the candle held by Cynethryth was as suddenly relighted, and all present lit their candles at this miraculous flame, thus foreshadowing that the boy "would be the minister of eternal light" to the Church of England."
Source:
New Advent Encyclopedia
Mansion House = Traditionally the chief residence of a land owner. Now used specifically to describe the residence of the Lord Mayor of London.
Workhouses:
The Knatchbull's Act (The Workhouse Test Act)
"The Church-Wardens and Overseers of the Poor of any Parish, with the Consent of the Major Part of the Parishioners, in Vestry, or other Publick Meeting for that purpose assembled, upon usual notice given, may purchase or hire any House or Houses in the Parish or Place, and Contract with Persons for the Lodging, Keeping and Employing of poor Persons; and there they are to keep them, and take the Benefit of their Work and Labour, for the better Maintenance and Relief of such Persons. And in case any poor Person shall refuse to be Lodg'd, Kept and Maintain'd in such House or Houses, such Person shall be put out of the Parish Books, and not entituled to Relief."
Source:
Workhouses
Pictures of Workhouses. Click NEXT to see more.
horselover
December 1, 2004 - 03:06 pm
What struck me most in the opening chapter was the cold. There are so many images of cold in the weather outside, in the freezing cold office where Scrooge hoards the coal, and later in the cold, dark house to which he returns after his dinner. Even in my house in CA, I felt cold just reading this. Even worse, Scrooge, at the beginning of the tale, has a cold heart. He cares for no one and is happy that no one greets or cares for him. But, of course, this is a Christmas fable, and so a glimmer of hope appears in the form of Marley's ghost, a chance that Scrooge might be redeemed and his soul saved from Marley's fate. This opens the way for Dickens to tell us how Scrooge came to be so mean, miserly, and cooold.
anneofavonlea
December 1, 2004 - 03:33 pm
that Scrooge is a personification of those who prefer to see Christmas as "bah humbug", whatever generation they may dally in.
Good and evil characters here are much to extreme to be real, but hope springs eternal they say. The countless versions filmed are simple proof that the idea of Christmas at its best is a wish in the heart of most of us.
Personally, I prefer A Christmas Carol read out loud, which we attempt in December every year, to wallow in Dickens English is to remind us of the joy of language.
We watch over the aging husband of a longtime friend, who died several years ago. He is the 2004 vesion of Scrooge, miserly mean and lonely. Each year he shares our christmas fare, last year being able to cope no longer, we didn't invite him. It was a mistake because it was our christmas that suffered most, and I got in very early this year to invite him back. He accepted very quickly which is as close to gratitude as we will get and yesterday he arrived with a knob of ham, albeit small, to add to the Christmas feast. Given that his personal wealth is extensive I guess I shouldn't think he has by this small offering transformed his Scrooge mentality, however as I mentioned earlier, hopes springs eternal.
Barbara St. Aubrey
December 1, 2004 - 04:00 pm
These thoughts seem like poetry today without much real meaning --- "The register of his burial was signed by the clergyman, the clerk, the undertaker, and the chief mourner. Scrooge signed it...And even Scrooge was not so dreadfully cut up by the sad event, but that he was an excellent man of business on the very day of the funeral, and solemnised it with an undoubted bargain."
Scrooge actually was doing a great bit of business to have Marley buried. Because of the large increases in population during the nineteenth century, and because of the many epidemics, the Victorians were faced with massive amounts of dead bodies that could not be dealt with in the traditional ways.
The first private enterprise cemeteries sprung up in the first half of the century. The first public burial grounds were consecrated at mid-century. BUT the Victorians thought that death related plagues came from the graveyards, sewers, pits, hospitals and prisons. They decided the only way to curtail these emissions was to shut down all of the graveyards in cities and towns. Starting in the 1830s the reformers started to shut down church graveyards and all graveyards were shut down by 1853, just after Dickens wrote "A Christmas Carol."
The reformers argued that the dead must be separated from the living, and that the best way is through cremation. Motivating the argument is a perceived lack of living space for the living. Victorians were worried that they were being overrun by the dead, and that there would be no room for the living. Cremation would be the perfect solution. True to Victorian times they dress up creamtion with luxurious cremation urns.
Where as prior to the rush for cremation the closing of cemetaries ment they were no longer cared for and became shabby places behind overgown hedges. In George A. Walker's "Gatherings from Graveyards," 1977, he documents the history and horrendous state of the London burial grounds and the condition of forty-seven of the shabbiest graveyards.
With that, I think that Dickens may be saying tongue and cheek much about the shabby place that Scrouge arranged for Marley, with the words that he "was an excellent man of business on the very day of the funeral, and solemnised it with an undoubted bargain."
colkots
December 1, 2004 - 04:11 pm
First, let me say that my earliest memories of being in London was indeed the cold. It was always cold and dank. Because of the custom of heating with coal fires (until the clean air policy of approx 1960's)
there was alway soot, fog, dirty air in London.
Hob, flat top of a stove, often there was a coal stove in houses with
an oven for baking, however open grates often had a flat place where a kettle or pot could be left to warm, such as Scrooge had. Mansion house where the Mayor of London lived. Gruel, thin porridge(oatmeal)not likewe are used to here. Pigtail, another term for a pony tail..hairstyle.Chincloth, used to bind a dead person's head so the jaw stayed put before burial. A candle's wick did not always burn evenly so you trimmed it to make the candle burn better.
colkots
December 1, 2004 - 04:30 pm
Bedlam..the looney bin of the time. Dip, the spill you used to light
your candle, possibly rolled paper or thin sliver of wood.
Before the days of decimal currency in England it went as follows:
One pound was divided as follows: 20 shillings,(a shilling was 12 pence) or 10 florins(2 shilling pieces) or 40 sixpenny pieces,or 240 pence. 1/2 a crown which was 2 shillings and sixpence which made 8 to the pound. All were silver colour except the penny which was a large
copper coin about the size of a half dollar. The half crown coin was
also about the same size. Notes were one pound, ten shillings and
a five pound note which was about half the size of 8xll paper,white
with black print and heavy like photo paper. There were also 3penny bits, an octagonal copper coin, sometimes there were older silver
3pence coins. There was also a term "guinea" which did not exist as
currency but was worth one pound and one shilling.. 21 shillings !!
As a bank teller, I counted and bagged many coins in England.!!
Barbara St. Aubrey
December 1, 2004 - 05:09 pm
In medieval Britain it was thought possible that the dead might sometimes return to haunt the living. Since the blessed were already in Heaven, and the damned in Hell, the Catholic church had to provide a place where ghosts could operate, therefore, souls of those trapped were in Purgatory, unable to rest until they had 'expiated' their sins.
Protestantism led to a scepticism among the elite and ghosts were considered the product of Popish fraud and deception. This did not, of course, stop people seeing ghosts. Without embalming there were all sorts of possiblities including a green light hovering over a grave during a certain time when the body decomposed. Also, during Victorian times there was a surge in atheism which became more of a threat than Catholicism, and so theologians began to allow a belief in ghosts.
Having just watched 'The Regency House Party' on PBS the comment was that stories with Ghosts were often the only stimulation for women since their life was so limited and boring. And so these intellectuals reading their Gothic and Romantic novels and although questioning religious practices they were still enchanted with wandering souls, purgatory and spiritualism.
Also, the population shifted from countryside to towns and cities, and changed from agricultural work to industrial work. While fairies, goblins, imps, and wood and water spirits are creatures of the countryside and therefore did not retain their appeal, ghosts are a remnant of the dead, and the dead are everywhere; they exist in both town and country.
Although the true Gothic novel had its hay day before Dickens, there are authors contemporary to Dickens who were writing of ghostly appearances - Wilkie Collins, the Bronte sisters, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Samuel Taylor Coleridge, George Du Maurier...
anneofavonlea
December 1, 2004 - 06:36 pm
Thanks, those posts are fascinating, I'm not usually given to delving in my readings, but all that information sent me back again with renewed interest.
Anneo
Ella Gibbons
December 1, 2004 - 06:40 pm
I JUST LOVE IT!
All of your words, your posts, your explanations, your recollections, your ideas, this is going to be a wonderful discussion and thank you so much, Ginny, for finally bringing it to life again.
When in the past I have thought of this story, it makes me very sad, I don't have happy memories of it at all. Does the memory of it make the rest of you sad? Christmases past?
Perhaps as I read it again, I will have a better view of it, maybe!!!
I loved this quote from Anna -"the idea of Christmas at its best is a wish in the heart of most of us."
Yes, that is true - the idea is a wish in the heart. That's poetry!
I have the book with an Intro by John Irving who states that Dickens did not put the accent on "Christmas" in the book - but the element of the tale is the word "ghostly."
The quote in the heading is from Dickens' Preface to the 1843 edition and as you can see the word "Ghost" is emphasized with no mention of Christmas in it.
Irving writes that "Dicken's celebration of ghosts, and of Christmas, is but a small part of the author's abiding faith in the innocence and magic of children....he believed that his imagination depended on the contact he kept with his childhood."
Yet he had a terrible childhood - consumed with loneliness and despair at times. Somewhat contradictory isn't it? Perhaps he found what childhood should be like in his own ten children??
I shall be reading the first chapter tonight - back later---
Jeane
December 1, 2004 - 07:39 pm
I don't believe souls die or that there are cold hearts. I believe that Scrooge and all similar persons are so frozen and numbed that their hearts and souls can't be reached especially by themselves. It takes a lot of support, listening and compassion to reach them.
Malryn (Mal)
December 2, 2004 - 05:14 am
Well, ELLA, at one time I did think "A Christmas Carol" was ghastly and gloomy, but this time around I find a good deal of humor in it. Like "There's more of gravy than of grave about you, whatever you are!" I see Dickens writing this fairy tale with a light-hearted hand, rather than perceiving it as long-faced, finger-pointing preaching about the lonely consequences of a selfish life.
He caricatures his characters. Even some of the names are caricatures, it seems to me. I imagine it was easy for John Leech to illustrate this story with Dickens' descriptions such as they are.
The rhythm of the piece, Dickens' use of similes and personifications make tough topics like the plight of the poor, especially children, easy to read. I think that's what this author wanted. He wanted to reach everybody, not just the literary and privileged.
He tells us Marley is dead, dead, dead, dead so we're not overwhemed when his ghost appears. We've been warned. Still, throughout Marley's reminders of the heavy chain Scrooge forged for himself during his life, the reader knows there'll be a happy ending. Charles Dickens wants this story to haunt his readers' houses pleasantly.
Depression on anniversaries is common, especially so Christmas. We remember the once-a-year special days more than we do the humdrum 364 rest of them.
I got over the Christmas blues when I began expecting less. Those Christmases of yesterday were not always as great as rosy memory would have me believe, I discovered. I remember some long ones I went through alone, far away from family. Even today, I am alone all of that day until dinnertime, and that's all right. The couple of hours' visit with my daughter and her partner and some holiday food make the day different.
There's some truth in what Scrooge says, you know. People rush around buying gifts they can't afford and forget the things that don't cost anything like the fellowship and good cheer Scrooge's nephew talks about. I always think of Christmas as a time when people smile and are nice to each other. Sometimes they're so tired out from all the preparation and over-anticipation that they forget to do that.
What I'd like for Christmas this year is a new mousepad.
Mal
Scrawler
December 2, 2004 - 11:26 am
"There are many things from which I might have derived good, by which I have not profited, I dare say," returned the nephew. "Christmas among the rest. But I am sure I have always thought of Christmas time, when it has come around -- apart from the veneration due to its sacred name and origin, if anything belonging to it can be apart from that -- as a good time: a kind, forgiving, charitable, pleasant time: the only time I know of, in the long calender of the year, when men and women seem by one consent to open their shut-up hearts freely, and to think of people below them as if they really were fellow-passengers to the grave, and not another race of creatures bound on other journeys. And therefore, uncle, though it has never put a scrap of gold or silver in my pocket, I believe that it has done me good, and will do me good; and I say, God bless it!"
I believe with these words Dickens stated the theme of this book. I love the phrase: "...to think of people below them as if they really were fellow-passengers to the grave, and not another race of creatures bound on other journeys."
England as well as American was at the time a class society - the have-nots and the haves. Dickens was making a statement with this little book. Not only did he want the people to "enjoy" Christmas, but he also wanted them to realize the "plight of the poor".
Although, we have made great strives over the years to help the poor, even today you can see whole families huddled under over-passes of freeways in Portland. The city has some shelters, but with all the budget-cuts they've had to close alot of them this year and the cold temperatures have come early - 32 degrees and dropping. And because they fear the disease and crime the police come through and clear people out every few days. What's interesting is that if you look up toward the hills from the overpasses you see the Pittman House, the mansion decorated for Christmas as if it were the 19th century.
Ann Alden
December 2, 2004 - 02:58 pm
I came across the reason as to why Bob Cratchitt and
Tiny Tim had to pick up the Christmas Goose. Seems
that the poor people of those days couldn't afford to
use the wood or coal that kept their homes barely warm
enough for cooking a holiday meal. So, the bakeries
in town stayed open to offer the baking of these folks
holiday goose or turkey. (Sounds like our local
groceries of today). These places were supposed to be
closed according a new law out about preserving the
Sabbath Day. Dickens' opinion was that this was the
only day that the poor could have a decent meal since
they weren't working that day. He felt that they
should be able to do so. His opinion of the law was
that it was a snobby way for the rich to put down the
poor man and his family on their one day off.
Ginny
December 2, 2004 - 05:37 pm
Wow! What a wonderful surprise, welcome welcome, Andrea (ALF), Malryn, Phyll, Norm, Ann, Scrawler, Horselover, Anneo, Ella, Jeane, Barbara, and Colkot, this is like a holiday gift, every day a little more is unwrapped, and I've learned so much from reading your posts! Thank you!!
I think we have enough questions or foci in the heading to go an entire week and what riches we have in this first small Chapter or Stave, I believe some of my favorite lines come from it but today I have a real concern about the character of Scrooge I'd like to run past you, but first:
Phyll, thank you for that background on dead as a door nail, who KNEW? Amazing.
Norm, I believe you will enjoy this book discussion, the posts to me are riveting, such a gift, and we're so glad you're with us. Thank you for the gruel, I think I'll pass on it, somewhere I saw something about who normally ate it, and that Dickens used it for a reason but have forgotten it!
Oh good idea, Ann on the two windows, how clever you are, I like two windows for my posts as I can see what you're saying it while I'm responding, had not thought of it with the text!
Malryn thank you for the Bedlam contraction of Bethlehem, another word I did not know the meaning of, yes, Scrooge did have a point didn't he, about spending!
Scrawler, it's this quotation exactly that I want to touch on today, "Oh! But he was a tight-fisted hand at the grind-stone, Scrooge! a squeezing, wrenching, grasping, scraping, clutching, covetous, old sinner!" Thank you for mentioning it! And good point on Dickens reading this out loud, and the aural effect it would have had, love your points on the writing. Dickens reading script of A Christmas Carol is at the end of my book, it takes about an hour and a half to read, and is quite startling for what's left in and what out.
The writing IS wonderful, isn't it? I don't know of too many modern writers who can write like this, does anybody come to mind?
Andrea feels sorry for Scrooge, I do too, does he deserve our pity?
Thank you Malryn for the history of St. Dunstan, and Mansion House, I have wondered about Mansion House ever since I got lost in London, it's one of the tube stops for the bridge across to the Globe Theater now, is the pedestrian bridge near it, I can't recall.
Good point Horselover, so nice to see you again, on the cold and I see you using the word fable, so you think this is a symbolic story?
Anneo, what a joy to see you again, too, and what a poignant post! Oh do you really read it out loud, every year! How wonderful! But your wonderful story of your Christmas Guest is so sweet and so apropos!! Thank you for that.
I want to talk about the character of Scrooge today if anybody is willing?
Barbara, welcome, yes, poetry in language, yes! Great point on the burial, we need always to keep in mind the times this took place in!
Colkot, thank you for the London background of coal and cold, and the definition of HOB, was discussing that with my husband last night, he uses the top of a wood stove in our bedroom to heat his coffee, so that's a hob! What's a fender? The pigtail hair style apparently indicated according to my version that Marley was of an older generation than Scrooge who wore that style. Ah and thank you for trimmed the wick, and DIP! lovely old terms, how romantic they sound. I guess if you don't have to live them! Hahaah Oh and thank you for the money, now we know what half a crown is what was half a crown worth in today's money, would you say? Gosh with your bank teller's background you really know your coinage. So a ha'penny would be …what…half a cent? What did that look like? I am glad to know a guinea was not a coin but the way they carry on about them in fiction I thought it was at least 20 dollars, wrong huh? What's the modern equivalent of a shilling?
Barbara thank you for that background on ghosts, as well, fascinating!
Ella, how wonderful to see you here among us again, this is like a reunion, what a joy! I will put your great question in the heading, but when the rest of you think of A Christmas Carol, what do you feel, joy or sadness? What made you feel sad about it, Ella?
Jeane, I am learning a lot too!
Oh lovely point about the "frozen" nature of people like Scrooge!
Scrawler, that's a great possible theme, keep that handy for the end of the discussion we NEED to ask that, thank you for that. Oh what a point about the families huddled in overpasses in Portland, I have a woodcut of the same thing in Dickens' time, and will put it in tomorrow, so have we really come so far?
Do we KNOW the state of Christmas celebrations in Dickens's day, we can see the remark of a factory owner after hearing the story, apparently they didn't even take off Christmas DAY, so Scrooge was very liberal, wasn't he?
Ann great point on the goose, isn't it fascinating how we read this and have seen it in the movies but all this time we have missed such important stuff? It's like opening a package and finding treasure after treasure, I , to quote Ella, LOVE THIS!
now I am very interested in your personal opinions of Scrooge, and in anything else in the heading you'd care to share or anything else, read on...
Ginny
December 2, 2004 - 05:49 pm
I'd like your opinion of question number one from any and all angles you'd care to address it?
"Oh! But he was a tight-fisted hand at the grind-stone, Scrooge! a squeezing, wrenching, grasping, scraping, clutching, covetous, old sinner!"
Scrooge and his lonely life stand in stark contrast to what we like to portray Everyman in our holiday season in 2004, but is he so bad? Do you know anybody like Scrooge in 2004? What is your assessment of his character in these opening lines?
I am struck in these lines by the use of the word "sinner." Yet I don't see anything particularly evil in the man, do you? So far? He's not a murderer, he's committed no crimes, has he? What, so far constitutes his "sin?" Greed? I am wondering, idly as I do, that for Dickens to come down on him this hard in the opening lines, I wonder were the people of the mid 1800's (when was this written?) that more moral or religious than we are?
What WERE the times like? What were the social standards? What was the norm for Christmas celebrations?
You don't hear too many people running around saying Donald Trump or Michael Eisner (I may not be in too solid a ground on that last one come to think of it) hahaah are grasping covetous sinners, etc. etc?
WAS Scrooge then or now, by anybody's standards, a "sinner?" If so what is his sin? Failing to give his clerk more coals for the fire? Failing to give money for the poor when the solicitors came to call? Would all of his contemporaries in the business world at the time (you can see the factory owner in the question in the heading deciding to close his factory on Christmas DAY after heading the story, was HE considered a sinner, too?)
Was Scrooge's rudeness to his nephew a sin?
Do we call that kind of behavior "sin" today? Are we more enlightened, or more moral (or more touchy- feely psycho babble, depending on who you ask) today or?
Don't you find it fascinating that almost everything he does that's "wrong" is explainable by "good business sense?"
I am interested in your assessment of the character of Scrooge so far and why he's portrayed as he is?? Andrea feels sorry for him, what is YOUR assessment of him in this opening chapter?
Ella Gibbons
December 2, 2004 - 06:37 pm
Scooge - what was his business anyway? He owned a counting-house, a money-changing hole, which means what? Banking of some sort? Not lending certainly!
You know, while doing dishes tonight, I was thinking about the ghostly aspect of this story and I happened to hear something about Dan Rather seeing or feeling (which was it?) Edward R. Murrow's ghost in the hallways of CBS - did the announcer say Rather was talking to Murrow? WELL, WELL!
Do you think people believe in ghosts or get glimpses of those that have died? I have a very good friend who is convinced - absolutely - that her mother appeared to her one night. Her parents had died tragically and she was having a terrible time of it and her mother came to calm her down.
Is it a sin to be greedy? I don't know, Ginny. Some would say so - the church particularly as the only way the church can prosper is if the congregation gives generously.
Is it a sin not to help others? What is the Bible verse about a rich man cannot go to heaven or pass through the eye of a needle, I'm not up on Bible verses like I should be? So if you believe that, then it is a sin to be rich?
I don't feel sorry for Scrooge at all - perhaps pity that he has so little friends in the world, but it is a world that he has made for himself.
The dreadful chains that Marley wears are the symbols of his life, cash boxes, heavy purses, etc., and Marley is predicting Scrooge will be wearing those same chains in eternity if he doesn't mend his ways.
Quite a number of the robber barons in the past - Carnegie, Rockefeller, Whitney, etc. - as they aged set up foundations or became philanthopists for the very reason, no doubt, that Scrooge will change - is it fear of the hereafter? Did they feel it was sinful to have so much money, to have misused life's opportunities?
normlet3
December 2, 2004 - 07:17 pm
Hi Ginny. I think that scrooge was a Grouchy banker. Greed and alcohol. He could be suffering from depression from the lost of Marley. I Think that each character has a different meaning of Christmas. I have not found out all of them but hope to as I go along. My Christmas Spirit was renewed when I read the Nephew's meaning of Christmas. That is what Christmas means to me. Religion, goodness. giving cheer and a smile. Reaching out to others. Thanks for all your wisdom. GBY Norm
Barbara St. Aubrey
December 2, 2004 - 08:06 pm
hmmm Ginny you have me - first of all the phrase is
covetous old sinner. Covetous:- [adj] immoderately desirous of acquiring e.g. wealth; "they are avaricious and will do anything for money"; "casting covetous eyes on his neighbor's fields"; "a grasping old miser"; "grasping commercialism"; "greedy for money and power"; "grew richer and greedier"; "prehensile employers stingy with raises for their employees"
- Old:
- [adj] old in experience; "an old offender"; "the older soldiers"
[adj] (used especially of persons) having lived for a relatively long time or attained a specific age; especially not young; often used as a combining form to indicate an age as specified as in `a week-old baby'; "an old man's eagle mind"--William Butler Yeats; "his mother is very old"; "a ripe old age"; "how old are you?"
[adj] lacking originality or spontaneity; no longer new; "moth-eaten theories about race"
[adj] of an earlier time; "his old classmates"
- Sinner:
- [noun] one who commits sin
But more important to me is the sentence describing Scrooge is taken from a paragraph that continues the description and something caught my eye that I identified with...
secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster. The cold within him froze his...
He carried his own low temperature always about him, he[not his behavior but HE] iced his office in the dog-days [of summer] and didn't thaw it one degree at Christmas.
I've been there - I've been so hurt and wounded that I shut down even to my self and my own better nature - I think all the description of the outer Scrooge is simply telling us about the inner Scrooge.
Now this after quite a bit about the death of Marley makes me see that Marley was his only connection to life - Marley and Scrooge were like twins it appears with Scrooge being everything in death to Marley - we do not know if Scrooge was everything in life to Marley or if Marley had a life outside the office - we know that with Scrooge being the sole executor, administrator, assignee, residuary legatee, friend and mourner - there must not been anyone closer to Marley than Scrooge.
Hmmmm I am having a different understanding of this story now - that in life we have experiences that create within us all the symptoms of Scrooge and if we look at the three ghosts, they are bringing to Scrooge's attention the cause of his frozen soul, suggesting some alternatives.
In fact this could be the compassion of Dickens for the those in London who have abandoned the poor - their souls were frozen and regardless, for the sake of the future and love between those who remain on earth we must and can be generous.
I will be analyzing this story now with a new thesis in mind...
Malryn (Mal)
December 2, 2004 - 09:00 pm
The Seven Deadly Sins are Pride, Envy, Anger, Sloth, Greed, Gluttony and Lust. Scrooge certainly was guilty of greed, and I'm there was much anger concealed by that oyster shell.
I read that a Greek theologian named Evagrius of Pontius first listed eight "offenses" and "wicked passions." They were Gluttony, Lust, Avarice, Sadness, Anger, Acedia, Vainglory and Pride. Acedia from the Greek "akedia" meant spiritual sloth.
After that in the late sixth century, Pope Gregory the Great listed the seven sins listed above. In the 17th century the Church replaced "sadness" with "sloth".
In the Middle Ages the Church stressed the teaching of the Seven Deadly Sins and Heavenly Virtues. The Heavenly Virtues are Faith, Hope, Charity, Fortitude, Justice, Temperance and Prudence.
I feel certain that the Church of England in Dickens' day taught its members about the Seven Deadly Sins and the Heavenly Virtues. Which, if any, of the Heavenly Virtues do you think Scrooge had?
Mal
anneofavonlea
December 2, 2004 - 09:01 pm
Actually, we need to remember I think Dickens was written after the Industrial revolution. He was a child labourer himself, (Dickens) in a bootblacking factory and some consider Scrooge was moulded on the person running that place.
Acyually he was a levantine userer, indeed charging exorbitant interest rates so that people really had no chance of ever getting out from the shackles.
Have no trouble having sympathy for Scrooge, the nasty or evil among us are never entirely self made. Barbara, you frighten me a little with the truth of your observation, about coldness within, because it is certainly so.
I think though it is fanciful to believe that Scrooge was entirely evil, or that his nephew and family are entirely good. Why do some turn one way in a given circumstance and others another.
Who would have thought there was so much in A Christmas Carol, gosh Ginny if this forum discourages me from believing this is a story of hope, my christmas will be battered to say the least. lol
Anneo
Barbara St. Aubrey
December 2, 2004 - 09:13 pm
Oh dear - no fears please - but this story I think helps us to realize the waste we choose when the cold within must be warmed by some outside force or by seduction to something that will benefit us.
As the nephew says celebrating Christmas never put a a scrap of gold or silver in his pocket - but rather it did him good and will do him good and he went on to suggest by simply opening our shut up hearts, that if we venerate the sacred name of Jesus and "make it a good time a kind, forgiving, charitable, pleasant time thinking of each other as fellow-passengers to the grave, not a race of creatures bound on other journeys," we celebrate the warmth of Christmas.
At times in our lives I think that warmth must be coaxed and we must find something that we feel is more important than our own hurt.
As to forgiveness I am not alway that good at forgiveness but something once said to me helped, when you can simply disengage from thinking of the person or the happening and realize that God is more powerfully able to handle the person than you are - and so bottom line, if Christmas warmth only starts with remembering the simple story of a baby's birth then the joy may be quiet but satisfying and sharing that quiet joy is so much the better than sharing the ice within used to wrap around the hurt or hiding from others because of the ice within.
I wonder how much Dickens was aware of Christmas celebration in other parts of the world when he wrote this Ghost story?
Celebrating Christmas only became legal in the US in eighteen hundreds and Germany still believed in the 12 harsh nights that remind me a bit of the ghostly nature of this story.
The frights of the twelve rough or harsh nights - called out is "die bent tage" to chase away the spirit because otherwise Mrs. Holle awaiting comes and contaminates the house and barn or, it will means quarrels and vermin into the house, mostly spiders.
Also, one is afraid that the chickens will not produce an egg for the whole year. One guards against ulcers given by the spirit by eating leguminous plants.
Folks from Thuringia still today have the custom to go during the twelve Naechjten into the garden and shake all the fruit trees, calling to them "Baeumchen, sleep not, Mrs. Holle kommt!"
Mrs. Holle is the age-old Germanic goddess HEL, with the red eyes of the witches.
And here in the states the first tree in the White House was a "German tree" placed on a table by President Franklin Pierce in 1856. And Christmas music was only added to church hymn books starting about 1851.
"The first state to make Christmas a legal holiday was Alabama in 1836. Between 1850 and 1861, fifteen states (including Illinois, Ohio, Wisconsin, and Minnesota) followed suit. A significant result of this "legislation" was the states' recognition of December 25th as Christmas Day. This helped standardize the date for celebration. Previously, celebrations took place at varying times during the month (particularly December 6th, St. Nicholas's day), or on January 6th, Epiphany. Thus, events during the period helped cement the date used today."
When I was a child our family celebrated St. Nicholas day with as much tradition as Christmas day.
All to suggest that the nineteenth century seemed to have been the age when Christmas celebrations were established and I can better appreciate how this story was firstly, a ghost morality story and secondly, a story of Christmas that we today see 'Christmas' as embodying the morality that Dickens was portraying in this story.
Malryn (Mal)
December 2, 2004 - 09:21 pm
I see plenty of reason why Scrooge shielded and protected the vulnerable parts of himself with armor that was "hard, and sharp as flint, from which no steel had ever struck out generous fire."
Wasn't Scrooge's father sent to prison for non-payment of debts? Wasn't Scrooge sent out in the hard, cold world to work as a young boy? Didn't his dear sister, Fan, die giving birth to his nephew, Fred? Didn't his only true love reject him? Wasn't the boy Scrooge deprived of his childhood and any pleasures that he might have found in it? These are tragic things for anyone to experience, and especially for a young person.
I've known people who have been touched by similar tragedy. It seems to me that they do one of two things. They either take these experiences and become strong and able to flow with the tide of life, or they pull their anger about what life has handed them inside, where it festers and turns that person into another Scrooge.
Take heart, dear JUDITH. You know the ending of this story. Isn't that reason for Hope?
Mal
SandyB
December 2, 2004 - 10:16 pm
This is such a wonderful discussion of A Christmas Carol. I can’t have Christmas without watching the Alastair Sim A Christmas Carol. My goal in this reading and discussion is to try to understand why Scrooge ended up the way he was, why did the warmth in his heart turn cold.
Ella, I do not feel sad when I read or watch A Christmas Carol. I feel joy. To me it is a story of redemption. It is a story of hope. If Scrooge can be restored to life and love for himself and others, then there is hope for us and our world. It is a great story of CHRISTMAS.
Ginny, I don’t think Scrooge’s problem was that he had money like Trump or Eisner. His problem was what he did or didn’t do with that money. I want to know why the warm, loving Scrooge who asked a girl to marry him, changed into a “a squeezing, wrenching, grasping, scraping, clutching, covetous old sinner!”
Sandy
Ginny
December 3, 2004 - 06:21 am
Welcome, Sandy!! What a beautiful post, and I do like your own quest to figure out what made him as he is when we first meet him, that was lovely.
Anneo, hahaha, no you need not worry, you are so funny, you are doubtless remembering Julius Caesar? Hahaa The very fact that this is one of the greatest stories OF hope and redemption, to me, makes it important that we try to fully appreciate how bleak and cold and hopeless in spirit Scrooge really is, so we can appreciate the contrast, fully appreciate what happens to him. It's kind of like "Marley was dead, to begin with," stated 4 times, we need to really understand the depth of Scrooge's anguish and despair to fully appreciate what happens to him and why.
Scrooge is, when we meet him, a man so cold, as some of you have mentioned that he's frozen in spirit as well as in circumstance, that was beautifully put!
I will go out on a shaky limb here and state my own thoughts on Scrooge and his character.
I think Scrooge is Everyman. I think he was Everyman and intended as such when he was written, and not a freak of his time. He was the norm for the businessman of the day, I believe, I'll bring here some stuff on it, you may disagree, you may find your own stuff, and he WAS a "good man of business," too. I want to learn more about the TIMES he moved in, but I truly think, what do YOU all think, that he's Everyman today, too? In 2004. And I think that's why today people are so fascinated by his story.
Every man who sees the story of Scrooge, I think, recognizes himself. And that was true in the 1800's and it's true today.
Nobody is or has always been a cheerful Pollyanna, a positive giving spirit, 100 percent of the time throughout their lives. In the center of all of us, there is a person alone, afraid, trying to grasp on to THINGS, to do ONE THING well, like Scrooge did his counting house (as Ella says what DOES that consist of, exactly??) He chose, as we all know, his profession over his love, we might find he chose it over his life. He chose this life, we will watch and see why, and see the result of his choices, and he's doing the one thing he's devoted his life to (which may be the one thing that does not let him down? Have people let him down?) We'll watch his development, well done Sandy, that's what Dickens now proceeds to show us in the presence of Three Ghosts. Let's find out what made him this way? And let's make no mistake, the WAY we find him is bleak, dark, cold and miserable. Is HE aware he's miserable?
I believe if we are honest, we can all recognize him as part of our own heart of hearts.
We've all been there, we know this man, without exaggeration, he need not kick homeless dogs, we know him, and we've felt the same, not about nephews, maybe, or clerks, or deceased partners or holiday singers: those are symbols, perhaps, used by Dickens as examples, perhaps, but... there IS a Scrooge in every man, I believe. And that's why this story means so much. And that's why I have to keep asking WHAT is his SIN?
Because whatever it is, we share it? Or so I think.
Wonder why we only read it AT Christmas?
More...
Ginny
December 3, 2004 - 07:34 am
Here is but a very little of a huge subject, I hope you can find more, on the traditions of Christmas which existed in Dickens's day.
From: The Annotated Christmas Carol:
Few modern readers realize that A Christmas Carol was written during a decline in the old Christmas traditions.
By the early nineteenth century, there appeared to be little left of the old celebrations that had begun as far back as AD 601, when Pope 'Gregory instructed his missionary St. Austin of Canterbury…to make the local winter feast a Christmas festival... Read more about this and bring it here?
The magnitude of these celebrations did not decrease when Henry VIII established the Church of England; on the contrary the king did not merely promote the holiday pageants but performed in them as well.
Everything changed under Oliver Cromwell and the Puritans. Quoting the Scriptures, they attacked the old customs for being no more than pagan superstition; it was blasphemous to celebrate the birth of Christ in the same manner as the Roman feast of Saturnalia. Simple pleasure like mince pies were judged no more than a superstitious and popish abomination. The first blow struck the old holidays with an ordinance of 1642 forbidding the performance of plays. Read more about the Puritans and their decrees on Christmas and bring them here?
According to Josiah King's The Examination ant Tryal of Old Father Christmas, in 1678, Father Christmas of the town of Superstition in the Country of Idolatry now stood accused of having from time to time abused the people of this common-wealth, drawing and inticing them to Drunkenness, Gluttony and unlawful Gaming, Wantonness, Uncleanness, Lascivisiousness, Cursing, swearing, abuse of the Creatures some to one Vice and some to another: all to Idleness.
The Restoration of the English monarchy did not completely renew the splendors of Christmas past. Yet many of the old customs could still be found in the provinces. .
Round about Our Coal Fire in 1740 declared: Several of the gentry are gone down to their respective seats in the country, in order to keep their Christmas in the old way, and entertain their tenants and trades-folk as their ancestors used to do.
Yet by the end of the eighteenth century many of the old trappings and entertainments had entirely vanished. Such items as plum porridge and peacock pie were now unknown, and the court demonstrated little interest in celebrating in the lavish former manner.
The Industrial Revolution further discouraged the simple pleasure of the season; employers kept their factories running through Christmas Day. Read more about Christmas Customs during the Industrial Revolution, what was the role of the Church? What celebrations did it sanction, if any? Read about the influence of an American, Washington Irving and his influence on Dickens and bring all or any of this here?
These engravings show a slightly different picture of the times, can somebody look up Camden Town and find out about that? That's where the clerk (and Dickens) lived (notice the clerk is not named in this first Stave? Wonder why?)
Here, from London, a Pilgrimage by Gustave Dore in 1872, are two different views of London, first under a culvert, as was mentioned in Portland, and here's one of one of the, one hopes, less prosperous areas of London, there are literally tons of these vignettes, which show people, apparently homeless, sitting on the streets, the bridges, and in the alleys:
So when you look at THIS, perhaps Scrooge was not such a bad person after all, at least he worked to put food on the table.... or?? more...
Malryn (Mal)
December 3, 2004 - 08:59 am
Since I grew up in Puritan country, I'll take a stab at Oliver Cromwell's influence.
Oliver Cromwell was born in 1599 and died in 1658. He created the New Model Army, was a military genius, and some considered him a king in all but name. "He brought peace after a decade of war, united England, Scotland and Ireland under one government, and stole Jamaica from the Spanish. He also committed unspeakable atrocities in Ireland and turned Britain into a soulless war state where Easter and Christmas were cancelled, Boxing Day sports prohibited, and ivy, mistletoe and holly outlawed as 'ungodly branches of superstition'."
The Labor Party in Cromwell's time was influenced by the Methodists. The Memorial Hall on Farringdon Road in London is said to be a monument to Charles II's ejection of Noncomformists from the Church of England in 1662.
Keir Hardie was the first leader of the Labor Party. Temperance, purity and clean living were prerequisites for the life of a good socialist. Hardie preached absinence, vegetarianism and the closing of music halls. (See the list of the Seven Deadly Sins and Heavenly Virtues in Post #82.)
Hardie said, "Come out from the house of bondage, fight for freedom, fight for manhood, fight for the coming day when in body, soul and spirit you will be free to live your own lives, and give glory to your Creator."
Cromwell was a fundamentalist. He entered the war against Charles because he thought the king was a subversive "crypto-Catholic." Cromwell slaughtered Catholics at Drogheda and Wexford in Ireland, calling them "heathen savages." The civil war was brutal, prompted by differences in religion.
In England, Cromwell ordered the stopping of popular festivals and the traditional rituals of the Church, and put the promotion of virtue and the prevention of vice in their place. "As the Bible gave no specific sanction to the celebration of Christ's birthday, the Puritans argued that it was a sinful contrivance of the Roman Catholic Church. And therefore "the Feast of the Nativity of Christ, and all other festival days commonly called Holy-days were banned. With them went maypoles, dancing and other lewd entertainments."
The parliamentarians had the nickname Roundheads because of their short, bullet-headed appearance.
As an aside, we're discussing Islam in the Story of Civilization discussion, and Cromwell's and Hardie's beliefs and methods remind me of Mohammed's.
My Grandfather Stubbs was a staunch, Bible-thumping Methodist. According to him, by God, you didn't do anything on Sunday except go to church and read the Bible. (Though the women were allowed to cook food and do the cleaning up afterwards.) My grandfather wasn't alone in my part of New England, and it wasn't easy to grow up as a product of the 30's and 40's with people like them around.
Mal
Malryn (Mal)
December 3, 2004 - 09:20 am
The Memorial Hall, London (10310 kbs)
The Memorial Hall on Farringdon Road in London was the home of the London Vegetarian Society from 1888 until 1969. Socialist vegetarian, George Bernard Shaw, followed some of the principles of Keir Hardie, didn't he?
Mal
Ann Alden
December 3, 2004 - 10:33 am
Christmas is a time of feasts of exchanging gifts and reuniting family members around a holiday feast. It is also the time of the year when Christians celebrate the birth of the Christ child. We celebrate this holiday as tradition without actually knowing the origins behind these rituals. Many of them predate the birth of Christ but most can be traced to the middle of the 19th century.
During the 17th century when the puritans ruled England, Christmas celebrations were banned because of their pagan history. Many of the images of the holiday were seen as idolatrous (qtd in Dickens and Patrick 2). However, Christmas festivals were still held in the rural areas of the country. They were never as popular as they were before the puritans. By the time of the industrial revolution, Christmas was almost forgotten. The new pace of business, whose motto is time is money, did not allow workers time off to celebrate the holiday. It was not until Charles Dickens and a few other authors of that time through their works brought Christmas back to life (qtd in Dickens and Patrick 2).
Ann Alden
December 3, 2004 - 10:37 am
"Charles Dickens’ A Christmas Carol is the model of our Christmas celebration today. He was able to condense the many winter festivals into one single celebration. He describes in A Christmas Carol and in The Pickwick Papers as well as in a piece in Sketches by Boz the English Christmas (Producer Cox & Weightman). In A Christmas Carol, he shows us a Christmas dinner hosted by Scrooge’s nephew and is wife. Family and friends gather around a Christmas dinner and afterwards play games such as blindmans bluff. The poor Cratchit family celebrates a traditional Christmas dinner with a goose, applesauce, potatoes, and a course of a flaming plumb pudding. After the Cratchits’ feast. they give thanks by toasting Scrooge with a Roman punch. Dickens’ Christmas books use the same formula throughout the series. A man who is doomed is saved via supernatural intervention (Dickens and Patrick 28). Dickens also used his Christmas stories to influence the rich to give charity to the less fortunate in society. He states through Scrooge’s nephew that "Christmas is the time of year when men and women seem by one consent to open their shut-up hearts freely, and to think of people below them as if they are fellow-passengers to the grave and not other race of creatures bound on other journeys (Dickens 35)."
Ann Alden
December 3, 2004 - 10:45 am
That we have Charles Dickens to thank for our present day traditional celebration of Christmas?? Seems so, doesn't it.
Barbara St. Aubrey
December 3, 2004 - 10:52 am
Geat background info Mal
Bottom line the question of the day to me is - "what is sin" - because if we are questioning why Scrooge is a "covetous old sinner" it seems we are really asking what is sin - we know from the dictionary what covetous means but, we are using the words to establish the description of the outer Scrooge, which is simply a metaphor or mind picture of the spirit within Scrooge.
As far as I know sin is estrangement from God - if we focus on the various ways we become estranged from God, then I think we are falling into the trap of blame - if we are estranged rather then asking why or how, we can ask - how do we fix this estrangement which may include changing behavior.
For some of us we experience a loss in life that freezes our spirit - that loss can be at times a loss of expectation - we often have a picture in our heads of how certain relationships or events ought to develop or take place and when they don't, especially if they happen in ways we find offensive or, ways we could never have imagined, we feel a loss - loss brings a feeling of hurt. Among the ways hurt can be expressed is, anger or like Scrooge, we can become frozen inside. For that matter even anger is a form of numbing or being frozen to our better nature.
We see the nephew as the opposite of Scrooge. What struck me is, he had no expectations that celebrating Christmas would benefit him other than doing him good - in other words, affecting his spirit in a positive way. I thought it was interesting that he had been out walking. He was rosy checked and in good humor as a result of his walk - hmmm says what so many say today - exersize or walking in the out-of-doors increases serotonin which affects our mood and so, if we are frozen in spirit we could make ourselves take a daily walk or some form of exercize in the open air.
And the other mood affecter, light - out-of-doors is much brighter than the office as described by Dickenson and certainly brighter than the tavern that Scrooge frequented where he hunched over the newspaper and his banker books - again, increasing light can change Body Blues which are symptoms of vegetative depressive.
Even his clerk slides down the lane on Cornhill and the poor bundle around an open fire in a brazier which may be why depression was not key to their circumstance at Christmas. [I'm speaking here about small positives that I can compare to my life today, not giving whole sale approval for the circumstances of the characters lives]
I am also noticing that those who are not poor in spirit joke at what is beyond their reach but, the glorious pageant did make their pale faces ruddy as they passed the "holly springs and berries crackling in the lamp-heated windows." Hmmm how often I have bah humbuged the over done lights and store decorations placed so early in the season.
Is a little of Cromwell lurking in my soul? Can I not smile and realize what appears untimely and extravagant is no different than the huge funds spent to memorialize with a monument some event or great person in death or, to make important the work of government or, even a place of worship is built with far more dollars than the accumulation of the annual Christmas displays.
And mostly to be cold in spirit as a youngster "gnawed and mumbled by the hungry cold as bones are gnawed by dogs" - [and yes, sometimes that is the perfect description of my inside spirit] yet, this youngster sings through keyholes rather than taking care of their own obsessions to keep their hurt at bay like Scrooge, who confines himself to the tasks he can do well, making and counting money.
I recently read that if we replace Humbug with today's expressing meaning the same thing we can get the real affect - Humbug to me is almost a notalgic bit of fluff but to say B.S. in its place really hits home.
There is so much more in this chapter than I ever realized - which may be because I thought I knew the story and most movie versions do not put much emphasis on this first chapter until Scrooge confronts the ghost of Marley. But I am struck at how isolated Scrooge holds himself - he covets his isoliation like he does his money - in the past my thinking was that old bitter men are and deserve to be alone - but now I am seeing his choice to be "as solitary as an oyster" is creating more "fog and frost about the gateway to his house" - the house being the container for his soul.
Scrawler
December 3, 2004 - 11:32 am
"Are there no prisons?"asked Scrooge.
"Plenty of prisons," said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.
"And Union workhouses?" demanded Scrooge. "Are they still in operation?"
"They are. Still," returned the gentleman, "I wish I could say they were not."
"The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?" said Scrooge.
"Both very busy, sir."
"Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course," said Scrooge. "I'm very glad to hear it."
I was supprised at first at the way Dickens portrayed this particular scene, considering his background with his father going to "debtor's prison" and he himself going to a bootlabeling plant. But on further reflection I can see why Dickens used "sarcasm" to bring his point across. Which made me ask myself the question: do state or federal programs really work to help the poor or are they better off being helped by private enterprise?
Scrooge later says: "...I don't make merry myself at Christmas and I can't afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishmetns I have mentioned -- they cost enough; and those who are badly off must go there."
So Scrooge did do something with his money after all. He did support the "establishments" that the gentlemen mentioned. What is Dickens saying: that paying our taxes is not enough; that we should also give generously beyond what the government does? And what about these "idle people" making merry on my money?
Scrooge also states: "I wish to be left alone," said Scrooge. "Since you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer." I think sometimes we forget that not everyone, for their own reasons, wants to be merry at Christmas. And I believe we should respect their wishes and leave them in peace.
"Meanwhile the fog and darkness thickened so, that people ran about with flaring links, proffering their services to go before horses in carriages, and conduct them on their way. The ancient tower of a church, whose gruff old bell was always peeping slyly down at Scrooge out of a Gothic window in the wall, became invisible, and struck the hours and quarters in the clouds, with tremulous vibrations afterwards as if its teeth were chattering in its frozen head up there. The cold became intense."
Once again Dickins uses atmosphere to create a mood. I also love the way he creates something more out of an inanimate object: "...with tremulous vibrations afterwards as if its teeth were chattering in its frozen head up there." Not only can we imagine the fog rolling in but we can almost hear the "gruff old bell" - bonging the hours and quarters.
Malryn (Mal)
December 3, 2004 - 03:16 pm
It seems to me that when this story was written, England was very much Bible oriented. Whenever anyone strayed from the "Paths of Righteousness", as mentioned in the 23rd psalm, he or she was dubbed a sinner. Pride, anger and greed are three of the Deadly Sins, and I suppose Scrooge was guilty of all of them.
Standards were different in those times. Today Scrooge would not be considered a sinner. Instead of being doomed to Hell, he'd be sent to a doctor for years of psycho-therapy and be dubbed one of those popular psycho-babble names.
Imagine, if you will, a scene where a modern-day Scrooge in his sparsely furnished Greenwich Village loft is visited by the Ghosts of Psychoanalyst Past, Present and Future. What a great 21st Century story!
Mal
anneofavonlea
December 3, 2004 - 04:07 pm
Having been reared in a Church where the eating of meat on Friday was sin enough to have me damned for eternity,and now at the instigation of man is entirely lawful, I think its so far off the mark as to be ridiculous.
Ginny is right there is scrooge in all of us, in any one given a free choice I think. However we live, that which defines us becomes stronger with maturity, so the miserly become more miserly the generous more generous.
If Ebenezer is a sinner, he is certainly evidence that that in us can be changed, whereas the really evil in society are perhaps beyond redemption, religious or otherwise.
Thanks for all the background info, Ginny, Barbara and Mal. Talked to my daughter last night on the phone, she lives in the heart of London, works public relations and she assures me in that great city, the spirit of Scrooge is alive and well, the miserly Scrooge that is.Wonder if there is a synonym between Scrooge and Capitalism.
Mal, thanks for the hope.
Anneo
colkots
December 3, 2004 - 04:55 pm
Christmas is a coming, the geese are getting fat, please to put a penny
in the old man's hat. If you haven't got a penny, a ha'penny will do,
if you haven't got a ha'penny..God bless you!.
When writing about the old currency forgot about half pennies, a coppercoin about the size of a quarter, AND farthings.. when I was a child you were rich if you had one penny and that penny could be dividedinto 4 farthings which looked just like the pennies here. I think these were not minted during WW2 and went out of circulation.
Remember the rhyme Oranges and Lemons say the bells of St Clements,
I owe you 5 farthings say the bells of St Martins, When will you pay me say the bells of Old Bailey, When I grow rich say the bells of Shoreditch & so on. here come the candle to light you to bed and here comes the chopper to chop off your head...Etc. Colkot
normlet3
December 4, 2004 - 08:27 am
Their faithful Friend and Servant, C.D.
``A merry Christmas, uncle! God save you!'' cried a cheerful voice. It was the voice of Scrooge's nephew, who came upon him so quickly that this was the first intimation he had of his approach.
``Bah!'' said Scrooge, ``Humbug
There are many things from which I might have derived good, by which I have not profited, I dare say,'' returned the nephew: ``Christmas among the rest. But I am sure I have always thought of Christmas time, when it has come round -- apart from the veneration due to its sacred name and origin, if anything belonging to it can be apart from that -- as a good time: a kind, forgiving, charitable, pleasant time: the only time I know of, in the long calendar of the year, when men and women seem by one consent to open their shut-up hearts freely, and to think of people below them as if they really were fellow-passengers to the grave, and not another race of creatures bound on other journeys. And therefore, uncle, though it has never put a scrap of gold or silver in my pocket, I believe that it has done me good, and will do me good; and I say, God bless it!''
am sorry, with all my heart, to find you so resolute. We have never had any quarrel, to which I have been a party. But I have made the trial in homage to Christmas, and I'll keep my Christmas humour to the last. So A Merry Christmas, uncle!''
Hello Ginny and others I am a new guy around the block. I have not sharred much with you because it is trial and error. I am doing this to get some Christmas spirit and pass it on to others. I share the Nephew's feeling as noted above.
I don't know who Dickens mean Their faithful Friend and Servant, C.D.
Humbug is defined as nonsense.
The apparition walked backward from him; and at every step it took, the window raised itself a little, so that when the spectre reached it, it was wide open.
It beckoned Scrooge to approach, which he did. When they were within two paces of each other, Marley's Ghost held up its hand, warning him to come no nearer. Scrooge stopped.
This reminds me of Moses and the burning bush.
This is a story of hope and forgiveness, if I can I would like to agree with you Ginny that there is some scrooge in all of us.
I hope that I will do better next week. Thanks for all your comments. GBY Norm
Ella Gibbons
December 4, 2004 - 10:17 am
Have I got this right?
Scrooge was a banker, successful businessman, may have had good reason to be "cold inside." Of the heavenly virtues that Mal described, Scrooge had fortitude, temperance and prudence - didn't he?
He was sorely lacking in faith, hope and charity.
Scrawler
December 4, 2004 - 12:36 pm
At the age of five Dickens was taken care of by a 13-year-old nusremaid named "Mercy" Weller, who told him bloodcurdling tales such as "Captain Murder" and "The Devil's Bargain." Dickens' early ghost stories were comedies as those featured in "The Pickwick Papers" and "The Bagman's Uncle." But these stories would be the seed for the ghosts of "A Christmas Carol."
Another sorce for his ghosts may have come from the death of his sister-in-law Mary. Until the day of his own death he wore the ring she had been wearing when she died. And for ten months after her death he dreamed of her every night, the dreams ceasing only after he told his wife about them.
Dickens had an interest in the supernatural, although he was skeptical of Spirtualism this to contributed to the "ghosts" in his writings. Dickens had a special interest in mesmerism or animal magnetism. In 1838 Dickens witnessed a demonstration by Elliotson of the curative powers of animal maganetism. Dickens actually practiced mesmerism on Madame de la Rue as a treatment for her neurasthenic disorders.
"Marley's face. It was not in impenetrable shadow as the other objects in the yard were, but had a dismal light about it, like a bad lobster in a dark celler. It was not angry or ferocious, but looked at Scrooge as Marley used to look: with ghostly spectacle turned up on its ghostly forehead. The hair was curiously stirred, as if by breath or hot air; and, though the eyes were wide open, they were perfectly motionless. That, and its livid colour, made it horrible; but its horror seemed to be in spite of the face and beyond its control, rather than a part or its own expression."
I love the way Dickens describes things. Once again he turns an ordinary "knocker" into something horrible. I loved the way he described the "dismal light - like a bad lobster in a dark cellar." And the way he described the "horror - but its horror seemed to be in spite of the face and beyond its control, rather than its own expression." Now that sends chills up and down my spine!
"The sound resounded through the house like thunder. Every room above, and every cask in the wine-merchant's cellars below, appeared to ahve a spearate peal of echoes of its own."
Once more Dickens tickles our senses by using sounds.
"It was with great astonishment, and with a strange, inexplicable dread, that as he looked, he saw this bell begin to swing. It swung so softly in the outset that it scarcely made a sound; but soon it rang out loudly, and so did every bell in the house."
Excuse me while I pull the covers up over my head. Does it seem strange to you that I'm scared witless and we haven't even seen a dead body yet, except if you count the door knocker that was Marley's face. By now the modern writer would have scattered the place with dead bodies. How Dickens could write suspense!
Ginny
December 4, 2004 - 04:06 pm
Gosh what wonderful posts and points of view, I'm deep in Highgate Cemetery, somebody remarked to me, Barbara, on how fascinating your cemetery and Plague stuff was so off I went to Highgate and have not been able to get out, but have come in with some light stuff for a moment in the form of:
1. Did you all know there's a Christmas Trivia Game? It looks delightful!! I have ordered one and hopefully it will get here before the end of our discussion, we might enjoy having a play at it, if we like, and see what all we really know or don't know.
2. I'm finding there is considerable difference of opinion, say, on what Henry VIII allowed and what he did not.
Here's a fascinating thing on Christmas Customs, this one from Merry Christmas, a History of the Holiday England clung to two traditions immediately recognizable as Roman. All through the Middle Ages the kings of England demanded sizeable holiday "gifts" from their subjects, just as the emperors had in pagan days. And in England, even today, servants and those who make deliveries for shopkeepers often are given gifts, usually of money, on Boxing Day, December 26. Traditionally the money was collected in little clay boxes almost identical with those used in Rome for the same purpose two thousand years earlier.
3. On the Roman Saturnalia, you might be interested in this article in the Economist on the Saturnalia, Barbara, the other Latin teacher, alerted me to it, it's quite apropos, perhaps.
I love hearing about the old customs. As we go through Scrooge, I am excited to hear about some of the things they used to do, I must confess quite a kind of wistfulness for the gay parties that Nephew Fred was accustomed to have, the singing, the games, I love that sort of thing and yet we don't do it in our house, do you??
One of the Scrooge movies has him moving around the outside of the circle of "The Minister's Cat," and calling out answers. I hope when we get to it we can hear more about these different amusements, either from the Internet resources we have here or those of you with the various Annotations.
My DIL's family does do the singing, which I think is lovely, but it just seems so fun!
4. Another bit of Trivia My book has a note on the knocker "….had a dismal light about it like a bad lobster in a dark cellar…" It says that "rotting crayfish do seem to glow in the dark." I did not know that, I must say, never having seen one, I had no idea, and there is some reference to a sort of phosphorescence seen about the deceased, which I also have not seen.
But I agree with Scrawler about the power of his writing. Those lines you quote about the echoing in the house: wonderful, we can HEAR them, yes I'm with you, bedcovers over my head! You can almost feel that echoing, love it!
5. Yesterday's Wall Street Journal had a huge article on Scrooge. It seems that A Christmas Carol is one of the most popular plays of the season, it's going to appear in more than 100 versions this year including one with Richard Chamberlain, it's taking over the Nutcracker.
There's a nice article interview with Patrick Stewart, who does one man readings of it, and who confesses this piece has a strong hold on him and that he feels about it almost like The Ancient Mariner, and another article by a professor who says Dickens would have HATED all of these iterations, musicals, cartoons, that's why he insisted on doing the performances himself. His script was 1 ½ hours long and is in the back of my book. I bet he would have liked Stewart's. It also says that most people think OF the Alistair Sim version or the Mr. Magoo. I have not seen the Mr. Magoo, have any of you?
I think, in talking about our favorite lines from the book, almost all of mine are in this first chapter.
We've noted Fred's carol to the season, I loved that, and some of you have also mentioned the soliciters "…it is a time, of all others, when Want is keenly felt, and Abundance rejoices." I love that, too, and often think of it.
I just thought that the Ghost of Christmas Present says something almost exactly like that, doesn't he? Something about the rolling time of the year, I think one of MY own personal quests as we read this, we all have our own and I think that's super, let's all follow our own separate ghosts through the thing and see what we see, mine will be to see how many times that particular theme is mentioned, and who mentions it, just for my own curiosity. Notice Want is personified and capitalized and so is Abundance.
Another great favorite of mine, which I can and will recite at the drop of a hat (unless stopped hahaha) is "I wear the chain I forged in life. I made it link by link and yard by yard; I girded I on of my own free will, and of my own free will I wore it. Is its pattern strange to you?
I just love that. We are used to that, because of course we've seen it or read it year after year, but imagine the effect this had when it was first produced!
Ghosts in chains were NOT normal. AND THEN he says to Scrooge, "Or would you know," pursued the Ghost, " the weight and length of the strong coil you bear yourself? It was full as heavy and as long as this, seven Christmas Eves ago. You have laboured on it, since. It is a ponderous chain." And Scrooge glances about him on the floor, "in the expectation of finding himself surrounded by some fifty or sixty fathoms of iron cable: but he could see nothing."
Now who of us, having read that, does not idly wonder, just for a second, about himself? Did you find yourself looking down for just a bit and imagining a chain there? Hahahaah I did!!
These next lines are also favorites of mine, "Speak comfort to me, Jacob." That's almost almost exactly what Henry VIII on his deathbed reputedly asked Cranmer, and the answer was the same, "I have none to give." That's actually CHILLING!
Yes, this is a masterful piece!
And Marley is chained in "cash-boxes (did you catch that it wound around him like a tail?), keys, padlocks, ledgers, deeds, and heavy purses wrought in steel: the accoutrements of his business.
When I read that I wondered what a chain for me might look like? If it were filled with symbols of things I put first? Have you ever thought about of this? Or do you feel somewhat removed from this man?
I don't know which one I identify with most, Marley or Scrooge. How about this one, how do you personally feel about this one,
It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide; and if that spirit goes not forth in life, it is condemned to do so after death. It is doomed to wander through the world—oh woe is me!--and witness what it cannot share , (here I hear the Marley of the Alistair Sim movie accentuating EVERY WORD) but might have shared on earth, and turned to happiness!
How do you feel about those lines? Where did Dickens get that? That's not part of any religion is it? He's not talking about physical walking, I don't think, he's talking about something else. To me, that is the most frightening thing IN the story, but how does it affect YOU? Let's hear from you! What wonderful things you all have added, let's reflect on them, now (I have to get my own thoughts down first because when I read yours, I go off on your delightful subjects and forget entirely what I wanted to say!) ahahaha
Ginny
December 4, 2004 - 06:11 pm
haha Well the only thing wrong with sitting here tonight with you all is that I'm missing the super fire my husband has built in the fireplace, so I'll have to warm self, like Scrooge does with his candle, by this neon tube (OR by your great thoughts!)
I'm using FIREBRICK as a font color, tho, in order to spread the warmth, I can't wait till we get into the different ways of celebrating Christmas in the book so we can hear what ways YOU celebrate and how they are the same, or different!
The Workhouses that Malryn posted about are quite interesting, aren't they? We no longer have treadmills, I can't seem to figure out what good a tread mill would do, (Do you find it ironic that today we punish ourselves by getting on them in 2004? Hahahaa I guess the poor in Dickens's day had no choice, sounds MOST disagreeable! ) I guess we (I hope we) are more enlightened now?.
Barbara I meant to mention about your business of having Marley buried and plague cemeteries, now am off on that topic and it's hard to get out!
Well we remember Mozart and how he was buried, but the dates are not similar.
Scrawler I think you make a good point about the classes in English Society.
Ella, I did not hear that about Dan Rather. I am not sure but I think if you SAW a ghost, I think it would make a believer out of you!
And Ella, again, you mention your friend, my own grandmother who was the world's LEAST fanciful woman, trust me on that, swore to me that her own grandmother (long dead) appeared to her at the foot of her bed, telling her to prepare herself for something, etc., I no longer remember what details were given but I do remember she was not afraid, but apparently there were some instructions and then word came the next day that her husband had died in the Sanatorium to which he had been committed for TB in Texas and she had to somehow get the body back to SC. True? Who knows, she believed it, and she told me it VERY seriously, I scoffed (being a know it all teenager), but she was totally serious.
Barbara, I like your description of Scrooge and Marley being close, that's why it's interesting that one of the movies takes up Scrooge's attitude when he signed the register, I am not sure that's to come, but it is interesting, something to watch. Dickens has not said anything about that yet. We really get THROWN into this story, don't we? One minute we're in an office and the next we're encountering really atmospheric ghosts.
It REALLY interests me that the line about being "fellow passengers to the grave…." Is followed by and not another race of creatures bound on other journeys. It seems to me that Dickens is making the point in several different ways that cutting yourself off, in any way, is bad.
Malryn, I'll agree with Ella that Scrooge had temperance, fortitude, justice and prudence. Maybe that's the point Dickens is making: it's not enough?
Anneo, what is a "Levantine userer?" So he charged too much interest and deliberately ruined people!
Malryn thank you for the information on the Puritans, I always seem to confuse the Cromwells, for some reason. There were so many OF them!!
Ann, thank you for those lovely descriptions, and the great background on Dickens and his influence, did you all know he himself was influenced by the American Washington Irving?
Oh Anneo has said a very interesting thing, that "that which defines us becomes stronger with maturity…" I think that is so true, don't you all find that traits get even more so in adulthood?? So that means Scrooge, well again let's watch his development as Sandy says and see what made him what he was. I'm worried over Scrooge as a usurer!! The other parts I could absorb? But deliberately ruining people?!? That is different??
Oh interesting very interesting point on Scrooge and Capitalism. What do you all think about this issue: .is it possible to have a capitalistic society without usury?
Coklot, thank you for those neato songs, sent me singing all over the place, have heard of a ha'penny but never knew what a farthing was! Was there something called a penny farthing?
Norm, thank you, good point on Marley and the window, this episode is often left out of movies, but I think it's important, why do you think it's in here?
Ella, good point! He was lacking in faith, in hope, and in charity. He was not afraid of the noises in the house initially, he was a man who trusted in his own strength and his ability to manipulate what? Here's what the notes in my book say on Scrooge's line of work:
GE Stembridge in "What Was Scrooge's Business" in The Dickensian, April 1924) reported that Scrooge was a "financier," "something in the nature of a company promoter or a money lender." Scrooge thus does not provide any actual services or goods; he deals solely in the exchange of money.
Scrawler, thank you for that background in Dickens and dreams, apparently, according to my book the idea of the door nail came to him in a dream also.
How old would you say Scrooge IS in this piece? I wonder why Bob Crachit is not named here?
Norm mentioned earlier about the nephew's greeting "God save you!" According to my notes in the book Oddly this statement as well as perhaps the most famous line in the story, "God bless us, every one!" could not be spoken n the London stage of the time. Up until 1968 every script had to be submitted to the Lord Chamberlain's examiner of plays, who decide whether or not it could be publicly performed. This censor had to check for indecency, impropriety, blasphemy, libel and sedition. However, it was perfectly fine to say "Heaven save you1" in the London theater in 1844.
Do you think he can be right? Can that date be right? 1968?? Tell you what, I've seen some shows that need the Lord Chancellor, bring him back!
Let's talk about the humor a little bit, what aspects in the first chapter do you find humorous personally and what is their effect on whatever is happening in the plot? Does the humor seem to enhance it or detract from it, or why do you think it's there? Some of the movie renditions play it with a good deal of good natured humor, and some don't, which do you think is the most accurate? Do YOU see humor here? If so, where, particularly (to borrow one of Scrooge's expressions) ahahaha A farthing for your thoughts!
bimde
December 4, 2004 - 07:54 pm
Ginny, you asked about humor in the first chapter. I found it a little humorous when Scrooge said to Marley' spirit "You might have got over a great quantity of ground in seven years." And again when he asked if he might take on all three spirits at once, and get it
over. I feel that he was using this sort of "humor" to hide his own
fear of what lay ahead. By now, maybe he was thinking that his
"Bah-Humbug" was just a front.Maybe deep inside, he did remember
some good things about Christmases past.
colkots
December 4, 2004 - 09:31 pm
That was a bicycle...the front wheel was huge, the back wheel small.
So in proportion.. as the original English penny was a large coin
about the size of a 50 cent piece and the farthing the size of
a one cent piece.. you can imagine what it looked like..
I remember seeing one recently on the Antiques Road show.
Don't they ride something like that in the Circus.. as well as
the unicycle?
While I think of it..anyone heard of Christmas Pantomimes?
Unique I think to England..
Looking forward to discussing Christmas customs.
Colkot
Ginny
December 5, 2004 - 05:07 am
Welcome, bimde! We are delighted to see you here! YES! Two great examples of humor, what kind of humor would we call this? It's kind of droll or understated? I almost found myself laughing and there's a lot of places, too, good on on the quantity of ground, I missed that one, I caught the three all at once hahahaa, it takes a lot to move Scrooge, and I liked also your point about humor as a shield. I have a theory about humor in general, that "tears of a clown" stuff may not be too far off. So you think here Scrooge is sort of whistling in the dark.
To disgress a bit on people who make their profession humor: so many comedians of our time have been, privately, very serious or troubled individuals, when you think of some of the great names, for instance, in American comedy, Abbott and Costello (we MUST read Bud and Lou sometime and view that movie? Let's?), Jerry Lewis, Billy Crystal, Red Skelton, Jackie Gleason, all men of a very serious, even troubled personal lives, and hilariously funny. I don't know about Laurel and Hardy, can you think of any more? Humor as a weapon or a shield, great point!
Colkot!! You're kidding? Penny farthing is a bicycle!!! Well that one is a shocker, the things you learn in a book discussion!!! I've learned a great deal here in 4 days!! What fun, thank you!! (How did people get ON those things?) (I've always had a secret desire to ride a unicycle, if you hear a crazy old woman broke her head riding a unicycle on the news, you knew her!) haahaha Tell us about the Christmas Pantomimes!!
Malryn (Mal)
December 5, 2004 - 08:56 am
All of the comedians you mention, GINNY, knew, as Shakespeare did, that comedy is just one step away from tragedy. Charlie Chaplin was a brilliant example of that.
When A Christmas Carol was first read to me as a child, I identified with it. The Great Depression time, my family was very poor. Tiny Tim might as well have been me with his illness and his crutch. I'm sure I thought of some stingy old Scrooge or other who wasn't sharing his or her wealth with me and my family at Christmas time. The visitation by ghosts was his just desserts to this kid, the mean old man.
Maureen Dowd has a humorous rant about Christmas in today's New YorkTimes called "Jingle Bell Schlock".
Mal
Barbara St. Aubrey
December 5, 2004 - 12:11 pm
What is a lumber-room? And can someone sort out for me what the actual meaning is of Marley's quarters where Scrooge is now living -
He lived in chambers which had once belonged to his deceased partner. Ok got that - he lived in an apartment or townhouse or something that I take is not a single family house, and the apartment belonged to Marley before his death. I wonder why Scrooge moved into Marley's quarters? Do you think to be closer to his memory? Certainly for all those years Scrooge had to have lived someplace of his own and I cannot imagine as tight as he is being portrayed that he thew his money away by leasing...
The were a gloomy suite of rooms, Ok that is also easy to understand but this next bit - what is Dickenson saying...in a lowering pile of building up a yard - up a yard I think means what we would call a cul-de-sac - like a courtyard that these townhouses or buildings face - but a lowering pile of buildings I am sure is trying to express an mind picture but I am coming up with zero - help! -
These Chambers, or rooms that were Marleys evidently were out of place as Dickens personifys the house with childlike activity, playing hide-and-seek as a way to further explain the house, or whatever it is, looks out of place as compared to the other buildings where all the rooms in these other buildings were turned into offices.
This is a dark little courtyard - I wonder if an old London courtyard is large enough for a horse and buggy to have entered it in its hayday?
But I am thinking and knowing the ending does not help - if this is such the out-of-the way dark alley of a courtyard filled with offices how is there anyone nearby on Christmas day to shout to and get them to pick up the goose or, was it a turkey, but you know, the ending when Scrooge sticks his head out of the window...?
Scrawler
December 5, 2004 - 01:01 pm
"The bells ceased as they had begun, together. They were succeeded by a clanking noise, deep down below; as if some person were dragging a heavy chain over the casks in the wine merchant's cellar. Scrooge then remembered to have heard that ghosts in hautned houses were described as dragging chains.
The cellar-door flew open with a booming sound, and then he heard the noise much louder, on the floors below; then coming up the stairs; then coming straight towards his door.
It's humbug still! said Scrooge. I won't believe it.
His colour changed though, when without a pause, it came on through the heavy door, and passed into the room before his eyes. Upon it coming in, the dying flame leaped up, as though it cried, "I know him; Marley's Ghost!" and fell again."
I couldn't help but wonder when I read the above paragraphs as to how much horror comes from our own imaginations. At least when it comes to reading about horror, we create our own images. Of course movies and TV are a different "kettle of fish" but sometimes they go so overboard with dead bodies strewn about that it becomes almost comic.
And how many of us won't believe unless we really see for ourselves. How much has to be shown to us before we believe? For me "a clanking noise" not to mention the noises coming from the cellar and then up the stairs would have done it for me. Which brings up the question - why do we like to be scared?
I personally love horror movies and I love to read about vampires and ghosts. But what attracts us to such horror? I grew up in the 50s on a steady diet of horror movies. Remember the 3-D movies? "The Blob or "The Body Snatchers." Great fun!What were some of the great horror radio programs back than? I personally thought radio programs gave you the best atmosphere other than reading about it.
I love the way Dickens used the dying flame to create yet more atmosphere: "Upon its coming in, the dying flame leaped up, as though it cried, "I know him; Marley's Ghost!" and fell again."
Bill H
December 5, 2004 - 04:05 pm
Hello, I have been lurking here and enjoying the discussion.Barbara, I found this answer for the question you asked about "…what is a lumber-room.
"Meaning of Lumber RoomPronunciation: "lumbur room."
WordNet Dictionary
Definition: (n) (British) a store room in a house where odds and ends can be stored (especially furniture.)
However, when I say, lumber or lumbur it sounds the same to me )
Bill H
Barbara St. Aubrey
December 5, 2004 - 04:27 pm
Wow thanks Bill - I wonder if it is a junk room or a room that is planned as a room to store what is not in use - hmmm - OK one down and another to go - still confused about the description of Marleys chambers...
anneofavonlea
December 5, 2004 - 05:55 pm
Levant, is that lebanon area and surrounds of the middle east. Thus the levantine usurer came from there. My grandfather often used the term and it has just stuck I guess.
It is interesting to consider that Scrooges action was deliberate, often we take actions without considering consequence, and since he repented so wholeheartedly, one assumes he didn't dwell too much on the ripple effect.
``Business!'' cried the Ghost, wringing its hands again. ``Mankind was my business. The common welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence, were, all, my business. The dealings of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!''
I find these words wonderful, reminding us of our real business here.They dont require religious fervour, just a simple interest in our fellow mans welfare, good recipe for life, me thinks.
Anneo
bimde
December 5, 2004 - 08:09 pm
Mal, I can relate to your experiences of Christmas in the Depression
years. There were Scrooges about--my Dad worked for one. No thought
from him of Dad's three kids---poor as the proverbial Church Mouse.
Nary an apple, orange, candy or even a greeting. So I feel as you do.
Somehow, he got his "Comeuppance".
Stigler
December 6, 2004 - 08:22 am
The sounds that Scrooge hears reminds me of when I was a child and listening to the radio. The sound of the door opening in "Inner Sanctum" was far more frightening than any movie images could ever be. Your imagination could really come up with scary images coming in that door!
Ernie Kovaks was one of the best comedians I ever saw and he had a very sad personal life. Jonathan Winters is another that comes to mind.
I think many of us have been in the situation where we have to laugh or cry one; and for some reason, laughter seems more socially acceptable.
I love this discussion of such a wonderful book.
Judy
Malryn (Mal)
December 6, 2004 - 09:19 am
Dickens hit all the senses when he wrote. He says, "The city clocks had only just gone three, but it was quite dark already: it had not been light all day: and candles were flaring in the windows of the neighbouring offices, like ruddy smears upon the palpable brown air. The fog came pouring in at every chink and keyhole, and was so dense without, that although the court was of the narrowest, the houses opposite were mere phantoms."
"Palpable brown air." Gloom, gloom, gloom. I found this about London's fog in Dickens' time:
"Smog in London predates Shakespeare by four centuries. Until the 12th century, most Londoners burned wood for fuel. But as the city grew and the forests shrank, wood became scarce and increasingly expensive. Large deposits of "sea-coal" off the northeast coast provided a cheap alternative. Soon, Londoners were burning the soft, bituminous coal to heat their homes and fuel their factories. Sea-coal was plentiful, but it didn't burn efficiently. A lot of its energy was spent making smoke, not heat. Coal smoke drifting through thousands of London chimneys combined with clean natural fog to make smog. If the weather conditions were right, it would last for days."
More about this:
London's Historic Pea-Soupers
Malryn (Mal)
December 6, 2004 - 09:29 am
I remember when I was in grammar school (that's what it was called in my part of New England), coal was burned to heat the schools. Sometimes the smell was so bad that it gave me a headache and made me feel sick. I suppose smoke we couldn't see was coming in through the cracks.
I studied piano, voice and music theory at the New England Conservatory of Music when I was in high school. Took the train to the North Station in Boston alone once a week; then took the subway over to Huntington Avenue. The minute I climbed up the subway stairs and was on the street, the smell of coal (or coke) burning hit my nose. I'll never forget the smells of those days some 62 years ago.
Mal
Scrawler
December 6, 2004 - 10:51 am
Sight:
"Marley in his pigtail, usual waistcoat, tights and boots; the tasels on the latter bristling, like his pigtail, and his coatskirts, and the hair upon his head. The chain he drew was clasped about his middle. It was long, and wound about him like a tail; and it was made (for Scrooge observed its closely) of cash-boxes, keys, padlocks, ledgers, deeds and heavy purses wrought in steel. His body was transparent, so that Scrooge, observing him and looking through his waistcoat, could see the two buttons on his coat behind."
Taste:
"Because," said Scrooge," a little thing affects them. A slight disorder of the stomach makes them cheats. You may be an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of an underdone potato. There's more of gravy than of grave about you, whatever you are!"
Sound:
At this the spirit raised a frightful cry, and shook its chain with such a dismal and appalling noise, that Scrooge held on tight to his chair, to save himself from falling in a swoon..."
To make this story real Dickens gives us descriptions that are real to us as he touches are senses. I will have to admitt that I've never seen a ghost with "cash-boxes, keys, padlock, ledgers, and deeds" wrapped around them.But I have known people that have spent their whole lives working at what they do to the point that they ignore the beauty that surrounds them.
Haven't we all at sometime or another had a slight disorder of the stomach. We can relate to Scrooge when he says "you may be an undigested bit of beef etc." So even if we never see a ghost we might relate to what it would feel like by Dickens description.
I think any of us that have listened to radio program like those mentioned here (Inner Sanctum)would agree that the "sprit raised a frightful cry, and shook his chain with such a dismal and appalling note" we too would grab ahold of something and hang on for dear life.
So once again Dickens through his description gives the reader something to relate to.
Later in the story Scrooge touches the spirits which enable him to be transported from place to place. Now grant you I haven't touched a ghost, but by Dickens description we can get an idea of what it might feel like.
Now what about smell? Does Dickens describe the smells that we can relate to? How about the smell of roast goose?
ALF
December 7, 2004 - 06:50 am
That link to "Jingle Bell Schlock" is one of the funniest "rants" I have ever read. You have made my day and provided me with a true belly-laugh morning. Thank you. ahahah Yep. I definitely need to rip Frosty's face off.
Ginny
December 7, 2004 - 10:31 am
By gum, Anneo is right, but when is she not? They WERE usurers. This old woodcut of what Scrooge saw out of the window is entitled: Ghosts of Departed Usurers. You live and learn!!
This is SO poignant, to me. I have a lot of problems with beggars? I nearly had a heart attack in Cologne, the beggars there are just unbelievable, you can barely bear to watch them. (And Rome is not much better).
In fact, I had heartburn till I saw a nun say no and that helped. Here, according to Marley, this is a fabulous piece of writing, Marley began to step back and back from Scrooge, and in every step "it" took the window raised a little, that gives me goose bumps. Closer and closer and Scrooge began to hear a sound, "incoherent sounds of lamentation and regret; wailings inexpressibly sorrowful and self-accusatory." And the spectre, after listening a moment, joined in the dirge and floated out the window!
WHEW!! I love the descriptions of the ghosts floating around the woman and her child, and "they sought to interfere, for good, in human matters, and had lost the power for ever." And the descriptions!
They all had chains and boxes and some were chained together, ("they might be guilty governments") hahaha what wonderful writing, it's a gift just to read it!
And many were known to Scrooge, one especially, and the night was full of their crying and then...they faded and it became as it was.
THAT is good writing. THAT is writing with a message. I love it!!
Here in our last day of Marley, is there anything at all about this first part you'd like to say? I can't believe how the time flies, tomorrow is the 7th!! We must move on, do you think Scrooge is just the victim of an underdone potato? What does HE think? He locks the doors, he tries to say Humbug and gets as far as "hum..." And goes to sleep in his clothes.
Pretty darn dramatic beginning!
Here are a few odd's n ends to tie up if this thunderstorm will allow me to stay on and get to your wonderful posts, I see so much I hope to say about them!
The word "Scrooge," according to the notes in my book, is a "vulgar term" meaning to crowd or squeeze.
"They often 'came down" handsomely, and Scrooge never did." Again, according to the Annotated Christmas Carol, This is a pun, to "come down" as applied to the weather is to fall freely, but in its slang sense it means to be liberal with money or to make a generous contribution. When this was performed in 1868 the audience of Americans broke out in applause according to the Buffalo Commercial Advertiser,
GREAT book I've got here!
The treadmill remained in operation until almost 1900, my mother was born in 1908!! This was a giant thing like a little guinea pig runs in and was meant to punish like the poor houses, and often the poor person had chains on his ankles too. I expect they'd put me in one today for sloth@
I'll have to find the reference to Dante later, the weather here is driving me off!
more...
Ginny
December 7, 2004 - 11:05 am
hahaha Jingle Bell Schlock, hahaah I like…what IS it about this time of year? I've always been partial to Grandma Got Run Over by a Reindeer, myself, by the Irish Rovers:
Grandma got run over by a reindeer
Walking home from our house Christmas eve.
You can say there's no such thing as Santa,
But as for me and Grandpa, we believe.
Isn't that awful, but it has a very bouncy tune? Grandma Got Run Over by a Reindeer
hahaha, I know that's not funny!
Thank you for that Malryn! Hahaaha I agree Andrea.
Barbara, good questions! I stupidly assumed that a lumber room was to store lumber till I read this discussion and learned about coal! As a child growing up in PA you better be sure we learned the KINDS of coal, too, but I somehow missed the sootiness of it!
I did notice that Marley lived over a store, did you all catch that?
On the "lowering pile of buildings," I've been in some old quarters where the streets are little wider than a wagon and where the buildings themselves seem to tilt and lean over you. What does "lower" mean? I thought it meant kind of leaning, like a buzzard might? Towards the street, very old buildings?
I think maybe back then they lived over the shops? And children love to wander down small alleyways.
Good point Scrawler on the horror/ comedy combination!
I agree with you on the radio programs where you supply your OWN imagination, those were the best, Dickens seems to be able to do that in words!
Welcome, Bill! And thank you for the lumber room! I did not know that!
Oh yes, Anneo, another powerful quote, mankind WAS my business, love it!
bimde, your post reminds me of the song, "an apple, a pear, a plum a cherry, any good thing to make us all merry, one for Peter, two for Paul, three for Him who made us all! Thank you for reminding me of that one and for telling us your experiences, Malryn and bimde!
Thank you Scrawler I do too!
Wonderful research on the coal burning, Malryn, many thanks!
I recently went up north on a sort of nostalgic trip home, the one thing I noticed coming FROM Newark and driving toward Philly was the pollution in the air, it was unbelievable, but when I drove across the Bristol Burlington Bridge from NJ into PA, the smells were gone. The plants there where my father used to work are still there but you can no longer smell it before you see it. My mother said when they were dating that people would move away from him in the movie theater because of the chemical smell, that was a long time ago!
Good points on the SMELL issue, Malryn and Scrawler, all he has to do is mention them and we're hooked. I personally don't care for goose, wonder why the people of this time cooked GOOSE and not turkey? Goose has a LOT of fat??
"Christmas is coming, the geese are getting fat
Please to put a penny in the old man's hat.
If you haven't got a penny, a ha'penny will do,
If you haven't got a ha'penny, God bless you!"
What else do we need to say about the Marley chapter, what else does it remind you of in your own experience?
Plot wise we're on to it early, Marley says it's a chance and hope of his own procuring. Didn't you love that Marley carried his own atmosphere with him? Even tho Scrooge could not feel it, and the Ghost sat perfectly still, "its hair, and skirts, and tassels, were still agitated as by the hot vapour from an oven."
So Marley's not in heaven, yet he can ask for this hope and chance for Scrooge as penance.
And so the Ghost of Marley, who has sat beside Scrooge many a time, but never noticed, WOW, takes his leave, and will not appear to Scrooge again.
I don't know about you but I hate to see Marley go, he's my favorite of the Ghosts, let's find out which one is YOUR favorite in the coming weeks, and tomorrow we move on to Stave or Chapter 2! The Ghost of Christmas Past.
Scrawler
December 7, 2004 - 11:09 am
"The air was filled with phantoms, wandering hither and thither in restless haste, and moaning as they went. Every one of them wore chains like Marley's Ghost; some few (they might be guilty governments) were linked together; none were free...The misery with them all was, clearly, that they sought to interfere, for good, in human matters, and had lost the power forever."
England suffered from a severe economic depression during what was known as the "Hungry Forties". People reading Dickens in the 1840s would have understood Dickens reference: "...some few (they might be guilty governments)."
From his two years as a reporter of political events as well as his years covering Parliament, Dickens acquired from these experiences the realization that political oratory was often empty. And his typical response was to find them funny, especially in their public speeches. But in "A Christmas Carol" Dickens shows the government in a not so funny way.
Malryn (Mal)
December 7, 2004 - 11:19 am
GINNY, I was reading that lou-er, pronounced like glower, so looked it up.Lower (lou´er, lour) also lour (lour) verb, intransitive
lowered also loured lowering louring lowers lours
1. To look angry, sullen, or threatening. See synonyms at frown.
2. To appear dark or threatening, such as the sky.
noun
1. A threatening, sullen, or angry look.
2. A dark and ominous look: the lower of thunderheads.
[Middle English louren.]
Jonathan
December 7, 2004 - 12:25 pm
You know, life doesn't have to be as stressful as you make it out to be. In fact your Irish blarney is far worse than Scrooge's English humbug. That at least turned out to be his salvation in the end, but your blarney is just getting you deeper into distress by the minute. Thank goodness you were stopped by the deadline.
It's not the carols, Maureen. How anyone could choose designer drugs over singing along with Frosty is beyond me. You're putting the cart before the horse. And spending more, too.
Instead of switching off the carols, stop reading The Times with its scary stories. And stop reading the Grimm's dreadful fairy tales.
And stop worrying about your DNA. It's not going to bend. You're Irish is too tough for that.
On the other hand, the predicament you've got yourself into suggests that going the 'self-help' route might not be in your best interests. You could get yourself in even deeper.
Come over to my yard. We'll build another snowman. I've got a dandy set of bells for your mukluks.
I could have guessed, without your telling us, that you come from a nice family. How much water does your mom give her tree to keep it going until April? Wow!
I'm sending you my wish list. Do you remember how much you used to love shopping?
Barbara St. Aubrey
December 7, 2004 - 12:32 pm
aha - OK the lowering of buildings now makes sense and thanks Mal for the additional info - great I can almost see - oh what was that artist who did the scream - mostly worked in black and white - could almost see these buildings as having personality and looking over a pedestrian with windows as eyes - fun...
Scrawler how fab - yes, to realize he was having a greater impact as a writer of fiction than those in and covering Parliament...Literature does that doesn't it - I am thinking now of so many pieces of literature that have changed the course of history...
I wonder now if the Lumber room could be expanded to be the coal keeping room - I remember as a kid the coal-bin on the back porch made of rough wood where burlap sacks of coal were emptied. My book says that when Dickens compared Marley's face to "The ancient prophet's rod" which swallows every-thing around it, he is referring to the confrontation between Moses' brother Aaron and Pharaoh - at God's command, Aaron turned his rod into a serpent. the rods of the magicians of Egypt also became serpents, but Aaron's serpent swallows theirs.
And no wonder he was so careful looking and locking his house - seems Sir Robert Peel created the first professional police force only in 1839 and they were the only form of law enforcement at night - they were supposed to walk the streets. Starting in 1663 London began paying watchmen to patrol the streets and they were still hired but, no longer calling out the time at night as well, they often fell asleep on the job.
anneofavonlea
December 7, 2004 - 03:06 pm
You even got George (who is a closet scrooge) laughing.
Ginny not to burst your bubble dear girl, but nuns are excellent with just saying "no". Comes with practise.
We used to keep the cut wood for stove in a lumber shed as kids, not sure whether that was inhouse in our family or widely used.
Barbara interesting about the police, reminds us of "are all the children in their beds, its past 8 o'clock..... perhaps it originated with that practise.
It amazes me that reading this book this way, with your commentary finds me bits I had not even noticed. It really is a social commentary, have we progressed?
Anneo
Ella Gibbons
December 7, 2004 - 06:37 pm
I'm taking sides here! Jonathan, I agree with Maureen Dowd - I would like to rip off Frosty's face also (Jingle Bell Schock)- there's far too much so-called Holiday Cheer which is manufactured by the merchants for their profit, of course. They start far too early and the media goes along with it, commercials abound!
I cannot stand to hear the incessant noise of it all.
Bah! Humbug! To our modern celebrations of Christmas.
Many seniors, myself included, ignore all that - we neither have the money or the energy to do all that Christmas shopping, wrapping, baking, decorating that we did when we were frenetic younger people! Now we wonder why we did it!
I could summon up the energy to build a snowman, though, Jonathan or get involved in a snow fight but so far this year we have had no snow.
Ginny, I thought I would never be able to turn off that jingle about Grandma getting run over by a reindeer! It could have played throughout the night I think, but I managed to find the closer button! Boy, was I happy about that!
I haven't read the second chapter of the book - will do that tonight and hope I can get to sleep reading about ghosts!
normlet3
December 8, 2004 - 06:23 am
I need to keep it simple without guilt for the holidays. It is too much money and energy. Since I live in a multiculticultural society,I need to find a happy medium.
This Christmal Carol is helping me to take a mental inventory with Scrooge and Marley. Thanks for all the input. On to Ch.2. GBY Norm
Barbara St. Aubrey
December 8, 2004 - 09:10 am
Before we leave chapter one I thought it interesting and heartwarming that while Marley visits as a spector Scrooge with soft words admits to Marley that he was his best friend.
Is being without bowels significant in some way I wonder...does your annotated copy say anything Ginny?
Ginny
December 8, 2004 - 10:13 am
Yes it does, Barb, and it's interesting. I'm running a bit behind today and have to go pick up some live garland, so will put up Chapter 2 tonight, how I enjoyed reading that last night by the fire, boy howdy you almost NEED an Annotated version for Chapter 2 don't you? Fascinating, this is THE most fascinating thing. I have notes that it's an Allegory and notes on everything under the sun, but it will have to be this afternoon, am swamped. Here's the bowels:
Marley had no bowels Certain parts of the body were at one time believed to be the seats of human affections; the bowels were thought to be the center of compassion, as mentioned in I John 3:17 "But whoso hath the world's goods, and seeth his brothers have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dewelleth the love of God in him?" Thus Marley, like Scrooge, lacked in life any pity for his fellowmen. Dickens, is, of course, also reasserting that "Marley was dead to begin with": from the time of ancient Egypt, corpses have been disemboweled before burial, to retard the body's deterioration.
Till I can get back in here, Chapter 2 is FULL of things to wonder at and research, I wonder what stuck out for YOU?? The notes on this book are larger than the book itself and I must confess I am thoroughly enjoying every word.
A bientot!
Scrawler
December 8, 2004 - 10:37 am
I celebrate the "Winter Solstice." To me this is the time of year that we should be thankful for the bounty we have received throughout the year. So like my ancient Celtic ancestors I reflect on December 21 what the earth has given me throughout the year. And I pray and hope that we can continue our peaceful co-existence together.
Barbara St. Aubrey
December 8, 2004 - 02:31 pm
Oh my did you all see this written by
two of Dickens' daughters with their photo It appears that Dickens has in common with Lewis Carroll the early awareness or fantasy that was more real than either realised when they each described issues of time in their stories.
With the Theory of Relativity, Einstein was able to describe an inseparable connection between space and time. He rejected the uncertainty in an undivided solid reality. He believed there was no true division between past and future.
He wrote, "...for us physicists believe the separation between past, present, and future is only an illusion, although a convincing one."
If the past and future both exist together forever, then what is physically real is undefined until it is observed, or interacted with. This would have to be true of past events as well. According to quantum theory, the observer literally determines the course time has chosen by observing an event.
In Einstein's Relativity Theory, there is no uncertainty since there is no break between past and future. In Einstein's view the past and future are entwined and form a fabric called space-time.
Seems the night of the ghosts fits the Theory of Relativity and space-time.
colkots
December 8, 2004 - 05:14 pm
Have enjoyed reading everyone's posts..glad was able to clear up the
penny farthing query..as to pantomime, if you don't mind will leave that until later with Christmas customs itd. Very busy setting up
Computer classes before I leave for the West coast next week..
you see I'm not having a traditional Chicago Christmas this year.
When the children invite you to visit...you go!
Tata fer now Colkot
Ella Gibbons
December 8, 2004 - 05:48 pm
I liked this ghost, he was not as frightening as Marley, and rather gentle, I thought.
And we see Scrooge as a lonely boy reading by a feeble fire and "Scrooge sat down upon a form, and wept to see his poor forgotten self as he had used to be."
"There he was, alone again, when all the other boys had gone home for the jolly holidays.. He was not reading now, but walking up and down despairingly.
Some childhood! Was it bad enough to turn him into a bitter old man, a miser, wanting only to be alone? Some would say so, others might say it would make him a better person.
Who is to say how childhood affects us?
HILLI-HO!
Ginny
December 8, 2004 - 07:20 pm
Well better late than never, alas the heading looks like it has seen 50 ghosts, maybe by the time you all see it it will be restored. Jane is manfully struggling with it, who will emerge the victor, Jane or the Ghost of Headings Broken? Hahaah
Tons of great things in this section, you need an encyclopedia handy to figure it out and I must confess I spent half the night last night trying to find a pretty picture of Strood, England, which has been identified as…"the little market town…with its bridge, its church and winding river."
This is near Rochester Castle in Kent, which Dickens removed from his text, but do you think I can FIND a picture of Strood? All I can find is the Parish Church, which is pretty but I wanted that scene of the sweet little village in the snow that's in all of our minds.
So here, so much for the movie versions why Scrooge's father hated him, Fan is obviously younger! So his mother couldn't have died giving him birth! SO what is the reason given or what do you surmise about his father's dislike?
Or was it a dislike? What does Fan mean "you're to be a man?"
My favorite lines in this part are: Not a latent echo in the house, not a squeak and scuffle from the mice behind the panelling, not a drip from the half-thawed water-spout in the dull yard behind, not a sigh among the leafless boughs of one despondent poplar, not the idle swinging of an empty store-house door, no , not a clicking in the fire, but fell upon the heart of Scrooge with softening influence, and gave a free passage to his tears.
I'd like to diagram that.
I wish we could read a book by Dickens? He's such a wonderful writer, isn't he? Every line has majesty.
That part where Scrooge went back for the first time, his enthusiasm, his joy at seeing the slightest thing, that is NOT easy to write, but who of us reading it did not understand and did not feel his own heart quicken?
Oh my notes say "plain deal forms" are long, unpainted, and unvarnished school benches made of deal wood (whatever that is) or pine? I had no idea on that one!
And what of Fezziwig? Bless his heart, it's Fezziwig alive again, closing the office at 7 pm. My book says Fezziwig has chosen to close the office early, the "usual hour for closing a place of business was 9:00." Can you imagine?
Now in all the excitements of the party, there's one thing that I do know, the mince pie!
There is quite a history behind the mince pie, do any of you know it? I must have mince pie at Christmas, do any of the rest of you? There's a… legend that as many mouthfuls of mince pie that you eat during the 12 Days of Christmas, that much good luck will come to you. OH there's SO much in this Stage, what have YOU found, what do YOU want to remark on, welcome Jonathan!!! You are so clever, welcome in! Pull up a mince pie, we're having our own Fezzigiwig Sir Roger de Coverley here!
Ginny
December 8, 2004 - 07:44 pm
I am so enjoying all the submissions here!
Scrawler, I did not know that about the depression, well done!
It's quite amazing what all is in this!
Malryn, thank you for that definition of lower, sounds like Matt "Lauer" and he's anything but, huh?
Jonathan, I agree with this: "Instead of switching off the carols, stop reading The Times with its scary stories. And stop reading the Grimm's dreadful fairy tales." I agree! Did you all know there's a new Annotated Grimm's? Grimm's wasn't meant for children initially, it might be fascinating to read that, too.
Barbara, I am so glad you have commentary in your book!! So helpful, thank you for the Aaron's rod thing!!
Anneo, hahaha George as a Closet Scrooge? Haahah You know what? I think you might be right again, this does seem to be a social commentary, it's a lot of things I was not aware of.
What a good question have we progressed?!? What do you all think, you've heard from Anneo's daughter currently in England on this?
Ella, hahahaha that Grandma Got Run Over by a Reindeer was your Ghost of Christmas Present Penance for being a Scrooge-ette!
hahaha
normlet3 , I’m doing Christmas a lot more simply this year, myself, and I'm really enjoying it, too.
"Simple" is IN this Christmas!
Barbara, I entirely missed this!!! " I thought it interesting and heartwarming that while Marley visits as a spector Scrooge with soft words admits to Marley that he was his best friend." I did NOT see that! I must go back.
Scrawler, I get the Solstice and the Equinox confused are they around the same time?
That's a nice custom you have!
Barbara, thank you for the Relativity and space time, do you have the same book I do (she hopes?) Mine is the Michael Patrick Hearn (Isn't he famous for something else??)
They're singing beautiful carols on the ETV as I read Scrooge and write this!
Colkot, off to a fun holiday with your children and out of the Chicago snow, we'll expect a full explanation of all these customs, don't go TOO far!
Ella, yes he was alone again, why, I wonder? Nobody left but him? What is happening here? Could his friends not invited him to go with them if he had no where to go? Sad, isn't it?
There's something strange about being left behind at school, if it's ever happened to you. Not a particularly good feeling, no matter how old you are. What, do we have ANY idea what was going on there. And what of that "Master Scrooge," business when he left? What did you all make of that?
That's an interesting point, Ella, on whether or not this being left behind has made him stronger or bitter, what do you all think? Do we see any sign of the Scrooge he became yet? (That's one of the new questions, I realize the questions are a mess, I guess Ella has ESP or Ghost SP) and figured it out!!!
A partridge in a pear tree for your thoughts?
Jeane
December 8, 2004 - 07:52 pm
"not a squeak and scuffle from the mice behind the panelling"
This phrase reminds me of the horror story "The Rats in the Walls" in the book "Great Tales of Terror and the Supernatural" published during WWII. People could hear the rats run down inside the castle walls.
I still prefer pumpkin pie at Christmas too. However, many years ago I was introduced to Persimmon Steamed Pudding, and one year I actually made Cranberry Steamed Pudding with the warm butter powdered sugar hard sauce.
I have to smile because while I was chopping the cranberries in the blender I took the lid off before turning off the blender and had cranberries splashed all over my kitchen!
Barbara St. Aubrey
December 8, 2004 - 11:38 pm
Cranberries in the kitchen - hehehe - sounds like a jump rope rhyme and I bet you felt like you were jumping cleaning up the mess...
Ginny my copy is published by Viking a division of Penguin Putnam Books for young Readers with illustration by William Geldart and includes the Leach illustrations.
I never have read Pickwick Papers and have had it in my reading pile for years but isn't Fuzz the same character as in Pickwick Papers.
I am so glad we are reading this - I was so sure I knew the story and took it at face value where as this read is allowing me to see it as an allegory to my inner nature -
What I find reading it now is the language and his use of metaphors is wonderful and yet, when I was in grade school Dickens was put down as an unworthy author, not worth our time since as the nuns told us, his work was published in the US in 'weekly magazines.'
Weekly magazines had less respect, as compared to at least a monthly magazine - in fact a weekly magazine was one step down from a dime novel - today we may hold LIFE Magazine as an icon of worthy photography but during the 30s and 40s it was considered nothing but a picture Magazine for the masses who could not or were not educated to read "real" literature.
Life was a weekly as was Collier’s - Saturday Evening Post - Look - Liberty and a few others which at the time reading or having them tucked under your arm or on the side table at home was not the mark of an educated person. Sort of on the same level as a comic book - or Reader's Digest...Amazing...!
I have no idea what magazine Dickens' stories were printed but to the nuns any author whose work was in a weekly magazine was not a respected author.
Barbara St. Aubrey
December 9, 2004 - 12:33 am
Stigler
December 9, 2004 - 07:34 am
In Last Sunday's newspaper, there was an article about a play being performed in Tulsa, Ok. about Marley. The play is from Marley's viewpoint and he is very irritated because Scrooge is given the opportunity to change but Marley was not. That is a very interesting viewpoint. I wish I lived closer to Tulsa and could see the play and comment on it. I had not thought about that aspect of the story.
I am enjoying this discussion so much! Thank you one and all.
Judy
Malryn (Mal)
December 9, 2004 - 08:13 am
" . . . . so the figure itself fluctuated in its distinctness: being now a thing with one arm, now with one leg, now with twenty legs, now a pair of legs without a head, now a head without a body: of which dissolving parts, no outline would be visible in the dense gloom wherein they melted away. And in the very wonder of this, it would be itself again; distinct and clear as ever."
This stopped me when I read it. Sometimes when you squint long enough at something it begins to move, to lose its shape, to come apart. Look at it another way, and it reforms into itself. This is how looking at the past is. Memory is fickle. One time we remember something one way; another time we see it another way. We change as we grow older, and our memories change. What was so awful at age ten or twenty or thirty even, doesn't seem as bad at age sixty something. To me the memory of the past is not as important as the understanding of it and what it has done to all of us.
The ghost says:
"Would you so soon put out, with worldly hands, the light I give? Is it not enough that you are one of those whose passions made this cap, and force me through whole trains of years to wear it low upon my brow!"
I see the cap as shaped like a candle snuffer, which represents all the blinders we tend to put on when we think about the past. The past was great, the Good Old Days, or it was horrible, the worst time anyone ever could have had, with nothing in between. We blindman's bluff ourselves into making up a past that was probably not much like what we convince ourselves it was and doesn't show what it really was. I suppose this has to do with conscious or unconscious rationalizations we make about what we are and who and what made us this way. If we're lucky and really grow, as we become older and take more reponsibility we take more responsibility for the past of ourselves and its consequences.
"I am mortal," Scrooge remonstrated, "and liable to fall."
Scrooge has said a mouthful here, and it's not just about falling out of a window.
Mal
Malryn (Mal)
December 9, 2004 - 08:56 am
We called it "Blindman's Bluff" when I was a child, and it was played the same way as in Victorian times. Blindman's Bluff was generally played at birthday parties. I preferred Musical Chairs.
Scrooge alone and abandoned at school.
I was not left alone and abandoned at school, but there were many times when I had the feeling of being left out when I was growing up. A couple of times stand out in my memory.
There was to be a Spring Festival at my grammar school for Arbor Day. We were to parade around the circumference of the schoolyard; then a tree would be planted. After that I was to sing the musical version of Joyce Kilmer's "Trees".
I got in line for the procession, and a teacher came up to me and told me I couldn't march because I'd hold up the line because of the brace on my leg and the way I walked. Though I was still to be part of the festivities, I was very unhappy because I was being separated from my classmates and left out.
The other time I remember so vividly, two friends in high school and I had made plans to go to the movies one Friday after school. The theater was down the hill from where the high school was. We met outside, and when we got to the corner to cross the street, my two girlfriends took off at a very fast pace and ran across the street and down the hill, leaving me standing on the sidewalk. If I had been "normal", that would not have happened.
I imagine all of us have felt left out, but for me it all boiled down to the fact that I was "different."
I'm nostalgic today. The weather is gray and dreary, and my dear little cat, who has been my close companion for fifteen years, is very, very sick.
Mal
Ann Alden
December 9, 2004 - 09:01 am
All the posts are far beyond my ken but so thought provoking.
Barbara, when you mentioned the space time continuum, I remembered a movie that has been recommended. Its supposed to add to that theory and is titled "What The Bleep Do We Know". You might want to search for it at your theatres. Also, a Zen production titled, "I Love Huccabees" which is a comedy and should be around at all the theatres. Jude Law, of "Cold Mountain" stars.
My book is the one that I recommended with all of the different engravings that Dore did plus many others for Dicken's books. Dickens always had illustrated books as he believed that those enhanced the stories. He was not the only one who did this in Victorian times and even in our times.
From my book,
"Dickens certainly knew the power of literary illlustrations. The novels written by him and the etchings directed by him led to many social reforms in Victorian England. "
Scrawler
December 9, 2004 - 11:10 am
"All he could make out was, that it was still very foggy and extremely cold, and that there was no noise of people running to and fro, and making a great stir, as there unquestionably would have been if night had been off bright day, and taken possession of the world. This was a great relief, because "three days after sight of this First of Exchange pay to Mr. Ebenezer Scrooge or his order," and so forth, would have become a mere United States' security if there were no days to count by."
I think this reference to: "...a mere United States security" refers to Dickens disappointing trip to America. To his friend William Macready he wrote: "this is not the republic I came to see; this is not the republic of my imagination." Returning to England Dickens began an account of his American trip. Not only did Dickens attack slavery in "American Notes," he also attacked the American press whom he blamed for the American's lack of general information.
This is what Dickens had to say about American women: "Heaven save the ladies, how they dress!" exclaimed Charles Dickens on his visit to New York in 1842. "We have seen more colours in these ten minutes, than we should have seen elsewhere, in as many days. What various parasols! What rainbow silks and stains! What pinking of thin stockings, and pinching of thin shoes, and fluttering of ribbons and silk tassels,and display of rich cloaks with gaudy hoods and linings!" Heaven save the ladies indeed, not to mention their bill-paying husbands."
"He spoke before the hour bell sounded, which it now did with a deep, dull, hollow, melancholy One. Light flashed up in the room upon the instant, and the curtains of his bed were drawn."
Oh boy! I don't know about anyone elese but I am not only under the bed covers but under the bed by now. Dickens sure knows how to tell a scary tale. Has anyone every read any of his scarier tales like "The Haunted Man and the Ghost's Bargain" or "The Mystery of Edwin Drood"?
"It was a strange figure - like a child: yet not so like a child as like an old man..."
I thought this discription of the ghost very interesting. Is this the way you would describe something from your past? Does our past reflect the child or the old man or woman in us? Or is it a mixture of both as in the description that Dickens gives us.
JudytheKay
December 9, 2004 - 12:13 pm
In my annotated Carol, "the mere United States security" refers to the fact that to the English, it seemed no security at all. In the 1830's, individual states, without backing from the Federal government borrowed heavily from foreign capitalists (particularly the English) to finance public works. Due to the financial crisis of 1837, many repudiated their bonds and thus weakened American credit abroad.
Judy
anneofavonlea
December 9, 2004 - 02:20 pm
this discussion also, but computer is playing up so wont be around for a bit, keep up the good work though,
Anneo
ALF
December 9, 2004 - 06:21 pm
Forewarned -the 1AM bell tolled and Scrooge was faced with the child-like/adult apparition of the Ghost of Christmas PAST- (Scrooge’s past).
the figure itself fluctuated in its distinctness:
Scrawler asks: Does our past reflect the child or the old man or woman in us? Or is it a mixture of both as in the description that Dickens gives us.
There are vestiges of the child & young-adults we once were in all of us, I think. It reflects “yesteryear” - in the furrows of our brows and our crow’s feet, or perhaps a far distant twinkle in our eye. I believe strongly that we
are our past, as draconian as that sounds.
What strikes me is the
gentleness of this spirit. I love this paragraph:
“He was conscious of a thousand odours floating in the air, each one connected with a thousand thoughts, and hopes, and joys, and cares long, long, forgotten.”
How many times have you gotten a sudden jolt of an image of a long forgotten memory? Perhaps it was a whiff of perfume or a simple ditty you heard that caused a flooding of your senses, providing you with a rapturous de-ja-vous moment that had escaped you for years! It shows that ‘ole Scrooge, too, was indeed sensitive as a tear appeared and his lips trembled as he recognized old friends, of yester-year.
Ginny, you asked why I felt sorry for him. The following passage explains the Scrooge of today.
``The school is not quite deserted,'' said the Ghost. ``A solitary child, neglected by his friends, is left there still.''
Scrooge said he knew it. And he sobbed.
Or this!
"At one of these a lonely boy was reading near a feeble fire; and Scrooge sat down upon a form, and wept to see his poor forgotten self as he used to be."
Now that is heavy stuff.
bimde
December 9, 2004 - 09:15 pm
Alf, you are so right about smells or tunes that take us back in time. It comes without warning, and is so real! And about the gentlness of this spirit. He is, I think, both Scrooges--the old, and
yet the young Scrooge-"Tenderest bloom on the skin". This is the
Scrooge that the Spirit will show tonight.At least, I think, this is
the beginning of the "New" Scrooge.When he sees himself as that "poor
abandoned boy", he regrets that he treated so badly the youngster
who came singing carols at his door.
Mal, I am so sorry about your kitty. I hope it is better. Strange,
isn't it, how attached we get to our pets.
Malryn (Mal)
December 10, 2004 - 06:53 am
Dickens' sister Fanny died in 1848. She was the model for Fan in "A Christmas Carol".
According to the Microsoft Reference American Heritage dictionary deal wood is "a fir or pine board cut to standard dimensions."Mince pie.
"Three centuries ago, a mince pie was a huge dish called 'Christmas pye' and described as 'a most learned mixture of Neats-tongues (ox tongue), chicken, eggs, sugar, raisins, lemon and orange peel, various kinds of spicery, etc.' Over the years, the pies grew smaller, and the meat content was gradually reduced until the pies were simply filled with a mixture of suet, spices and dried fruit, previously steeped in brandy. This filling was put into little pastry cases that were covered with pastry lids and then baked in an oven. Essentially, this is today’s English mince pie."
I grew up in New England (Massachusetts), as I have mentioned, and many English customs were followed in my family. Mince pies were only one.
I vaguely remember the aunt who raised me making mincemeat from boiled chuck, suet, raisins, sugar, lemon and orange peel and apples. Cloves, cinnamon, allspice and a bit of rum were the seasoning. Later she used Cross and Blackwell mincemeat, which comes either dried or wet out of a can.
Christmas dinner in my aunt's house was a production. She worked as a clerk-bookkeeper in a jewelry store downtown. All the stores on Merrimack Street were open until 9 the week before Christmas. My aunt was tired Christmas morning and always acted very put-upon because she had to cook the big dinner. My brother and I got the message from our uncle, who pussy-footed around so my aunt would not explode, and that's how we acted, too, until the meal was on the table.
My uncle helped, as did my brother and I. My uncle cut the big, dark green Hubbard squash and got it ready for the pan. The only way I know of to open Hubbard squash is to place a knife on the squash and hit it with a hammer until the squash cracks. My uncle also got the turnips ready. What everybody else calls "rutabagas", we called turnips in my part of New England. My brother and I peeled the potatoes, and onions for creamed onions, washed the sweet potatoes and set the table. The sweet potatoes and squash were peeled after they were cooked. My aunt baked apple, mince and pumpkin (or squsah) pies and made the stuffing. My uncle stuffed the turkey.
I continued the mince pie tradition with my family. In fact, I made the exact same meal for Christmas that I had when I was growing up. My daughter cooks the same meal now at Thanksgiving.
BIMDE, yes, we do get attached to our animal friends. My little black cat, Mitta Baben, is not going to recover. When she dies, I'll get another cat. I live in the country, am mostly housebound and see very few people except for my daughter, in whose house I have a small apartment. Life would be a lot tougher if I didn't have a computer, friends in SeniorNet and my cat.
Mal
Jeane
December 10, 2004 - 07:21 am
Wow, the description of what mince pies historically were and still are! As I read, I realized I've been wrongly thinking of pecan pie. Ox tongues were mentioned. I love beef tongue. I had a stepmother from Latvia who introduced me to it. I don't recall mince pies showing up often at the few gatherings I used to go to. Is it because they are difficult to make, too sweet? I'm longing for apple pie, but is apple pie a Christmas desert? Pumpkin pie is popular out here at Christmas too.
Turnips and Hubbard squash at Christmas dinner. Were they traditional foods in your area? I had never heard of squash at Christmas dinner. I laughed when I read that you had to use a hammer to open it. Really? I think out here in California we have both turnips and rutabagas.
I live alone too, am homebound and long for a cat. I keep imagining having a little female with chocolate colored fur, a white bib and lower face, and green eyes. My apartment isn't clean now; there's a horrible amount of work to do in it which I can't do right now because of my health problems. Also I don't think I'm going to be able to afford one. Can you estimate how much it costs you monthly to buy food and litter? Of course, the cost would be less in your area. Anyway I can still imagine her jumping up onto my bed and keepig me company.
Malryn (Mal)
December 10, 2004 - 07:39 am
JEAN, yes, apple pie was traditional at Christmas for us.
All of the vegetables I mentioned are grown in northern Massachusetts. They're the vegetables that can be stored over the winter. In the house where I grew up, there was a storage closet for home-canned foods and root vegetables in the cellar near the bulkhead.
We always had a large vegetable garden in the summer, which my grandfather planted and tended. He lived with us during the summer. That was fine, except that Grandpa Stubbs thought he had numerous ailments and cured them all with Vicks Vap-O-Rub, so the house smelled like that all summer.
At the end of the summer we canned tomatoes, string beans, wax beans, peaches, blueberries and corn, and made piccalili and what my aunt called Chili Sauce, which was more like mild salsa than anything else. We also made currant jelly from the crop of our currant bushes, as well as strawberry jam from the strawberry patch.
I live in North Carolina now and suppose my cat's food and litter cost around fifteen dollars a month. It's worth every penny!
Mal
Scrawler
December 10, 2004 - 11:00 am
"Perhaps,Scrooge could not have told anybody why, if anybody could have asked him; but he had a special desire to see the Spirit in his cap; and begged him to be covered.
"What!" exclaimed the Ghost, "Would you so soon put out, with worldly hand, the light I give? Is it not enough that you are one of those whose passions made this cap, and force me through whole trains of years to wear it low upon my brow!"
Does what we have done in the past come back to haunt us in the present? And do we, like Scrooge, hurry to snuff it out so we can continue what we are doing in the present. Should we hold on to our past or let it go?
"The grasp, though gentle as a woman's hand, was not to be resisted. He rose: but finding that the Spirit made toward the window, clapsed his robe in supplication."
"As the words were spoken, they passed through the wall, and stood upon an open country road, with fields on eighter hand. The city had entirely vanished. Not a vestige of it was to be seen. The darkness and the mist had vanished with it, for it was clear, cold, winter day, with snow upon the ground."
These two passages come one upon the other. Scrooge finds the idea of going through walls [as I'm sure we all would] scary and than he is calmed almost immediately when he sees his the world as it was - "Good Heaven!" said Scrooge, clasping his hands together, as he looked about him. "I was bred in this place. I was a boy here!"
Who was it that said: We can never go Home! Dickens like many of the writers of his time, feared the Industrial Revolution. As more and more farms failed, the people sought the over-crowded, disease-ridden cities - such as London. It was almost like the spirit was warning Scooge as he was all readers that unless they were careful they would loose this "gentle setting" forever.
Barbara St. Aubrey
December 11, 2004 - 12:45 am
My book shows rural children in the art of Robert Hills around 1815 - found a site with some of his work
Rural Children by
Robert Hills around 1815 My book also shows the art of William Mulready - here is his painting of
The Village Schoolmaster The Butt - Shooting the Cherry painting of rural children started in 1822 and finished in 1848
The Fight 1816 A
country snow scene is included in my book - the painting is supposed to be Chatham, Kent painted by William Mulready
Landscape with a Mill 1810 owned by the UK government.
Barbara St. Aubrey
December 11, 2004 - 01:34 am
Huh evidently the English postal system went through an overhaul in the 1830s and by 1840 available were Mulready envelopes - elaborately decorated, pre-paid envelopes and letter sheets - scroll down to see all this fabulous art work and even a prototype of an envelope before it was folded.
the earliest stamped envelope - Mulready Envelopes interesting rates for stamps was based on the mileage to the delivered location rather than weight.
This one is just a ludicrous romp
Mulready's illustrated envelope The man behind the first English stamp was
Sir Rowland Hill
Jeane
December 11, 2004 - 05:22 am
It was interesting to learn a little about how the postal system and stamps got started. How do people feel that the United States Postal Service has proposed raising first class postage to 41 cents? When does it stop? I won't be able to afford to spend 50 cents which is where it's headed.
ALF
December 11, 2004 - 08:22 am
Good point in question here:
"Does what we have done in the past come back to haunt us in the present? And do we, like Scrooge, hurry to snuff it out so we can continue what we are doing in the present. Should we hold on to our past or let it go?"
One can't help but feel distressed for Scrooge as he relives the joy of days gone by. He has witnessed what once
might have been his. A beautiful wife and children pulling at his pant legs are lost to him, forever, and his remorse is deep and wretched. He wishes to hide now. As the kids of today say "
Put a lid on it!" That is exactly what Scrooge wishes, to put a lid on this spirit so that he does not have to suffer any further. His facade has been blown and the Scrooge that has been camoflagued all of these years needs to be guarded and protected.
Put a lid on it, spirit." He has chosen not to unveil his past.
Barbara St. Aubrey
December 11, 2004 - 09:43 am
Alf do you think that he is obsessive about business is much as some become obsessive with other behaviors, which is a way we cover pain -
When I think about it and read here his story, it appears to me he had the choice to either become angry at himself for making the choices that he made or, angry at those who put him in the situation where he was alone so that he could not share his hurts at the time. Therefore, he had no one who could offer him alternative solutions for his life. Few of us have the imagination or realization on our own of what we can do with our lives.
There is another schoolroom painting by the above artist that shows the schoolmaster with his birch whip next to him, a young boy with his pants astray where he was whipped and some boys who will be late not sure if they should even come in the door since their lateness means being whipped. In that enviornment either you have friends ot see you through or if you are a lonely and alone little boy you live in fear of doing the correct thing and make choices accordingly.
Yes, I think it is difficult to walk through the pain of the past - it can be done which is what today's therapy is all about - but it is hard to feel that pain and not immediatly turn it into anger or depression.
I would say Scrooge not only became a compulsive business man but he appears to handle pain with depression. Hunched over papers in dark rooms and counting his money has been his life since Marley died and that sounds a lot like depression to me over the loss of his good and only friend. Easy to say he "should" have visited his nephew but I do not think he was purposely trying to hurt himself - I think he was trying to protect himself as you, Alf are suggesting - and protection ment isolation with all attention on his obsession.
These spirits or ghosts are really almost like angles of mercey - all to say you never know how much those who appear not worthy of our time are loved by God.
ALF
December 11, 2004 - 11:16 am
His young, dowerless girlfriend must have truly loved and understood the young Scrooge to feel this way.
"``You may -- the memory of what is past half makes me hope you will -- have pain in this. A very, very brief time, and you will dismiss the recollection of it, gladly, as an unprofitable dream, from which it happened well that you awoke. May you be happy in the life you have chosen!''
She left him, and they parted.
She was right wasn't she? In a very short time he became the Ebeneezer that we all know. As Barb mentioned, he buried his heartaches and sorrows in $$$$$$ matters.
Scrawler
December 11, 2004 - 02:39 pm
"The school is not quite deserted," said the Ghost. "A solitary child, negelected by his friends, is left there.
"...Nor was it more retentive of its ancient state, within; for entering the dreary hall, and glancing through the open doors of many rooms, they found them poorly furnished, cold, and vast. There was an earthy savour in the air, a chilly bareness in the place, which associated itself somehow with too much getting up by candle-light, and not too much to eat.
"..At one of these a lonely boy was reading near a feeble fire; and Scrooge sat down upon a form, and wept to see is poor forgotten self as he used to be.
"To hear Scrooge expending all the earnestness of his nature on such subjects, in a most extraordinary voice between laughing and crying; and to see his heightened and excited face; would have been a surprise to this business friends in the city, indeed.
"There's the Parrot." cried Scrooge. "Green body and yellow tail, with a thing like a lettuce growing out of the top of his head, there he is! Poor Robin Crusoe, he called him, when he came home again after sailing around the island. "Poor Robin Crusoe, where have you been, Robin Crusoe?" The man thought he was dreaming, but he wasn't It was the Parrot, you know. There goes Friday, running for his life to the little creek!"
As we can see even if Scrooge was a lonely boy, there were still things that excited him - "in a most extraordinary voice between laughing and crying". Dickens had a life-long love affair with books. He was very young when he read such books as: "Robinson Crusoe, The Arabian Nights, Tales of the Genii, and Don Quixote." Dickens has his characters in his stories enjoying the same books.
Malryn (Mal)
December 11, 2004 - 04:35 pm
His friend, unofficial agent, and biographer, John Forster, claimed that Dickens took a “secret delight” in giving “a higher form” to nursery stories, and the fairy-tale quality is one of the things the reader feels immediately in A Christmas Carol. You’d no more complain of its creaky plot than you’d stop to demand greater structural integrity from Rumpelstiltskin.
John Sutherland, the hilarious solver of minor literary problems in such books as Was Heathcliff a Murderer and Who Betrays Elizabeth Bennett?, has a funny little note about the problems the family faced roasting that turkey. No wonder Bob Cratchit was a “full eighteen minutes and a half, behind his time” at work the next morning. The damned thing couldn’t have been fully cooked until midnight. And didn’t the Cratchits wonder where their meal had come from? For that matter, what is the poultry shop doing “half open” at six on Christmas morning—and why hasn’t the poulterer already sold his prize bird, which, intended for a Christmas feast, is going to go bad in very short order?
****
But the story isn’t exactly what anyone would call tight. After talking to Marley’s ghost until “past two” in the morning, Scrooge “went straight to bed, without undressing,” only to awake to meet the Ghost of Christmas Past at midnight—two hours before he fell asleep and “clad but slightly in his slippers, dressing-gown, and nightcap."
Well, as the reformed Scrooge says on Christmas morning, “The Spirits have done it all in one night. They can do anything they like. Of course they can.” But this does seem rather pushing it. One feels pedantic objecting to the illogic of ghosts, but in A Christmas Carol they behave more inconsistently than even ghosts deserve. Apparently nothing the poor Ghost of Christmas Future shows Scrooge comes true. “I see a vacant seat,” the Ghost reports, “in the poor chimney-corner, and a crutch without an owner, carefully preserved”—but at the story’s end, after Scrooge’s reformation, we are assured that Tiny Tim “did not die.” The new Scrooge presumably meets his own death not alone—his very shirt and bed curtains stolen from around his corpse—but surrounded by his adoring nephew Fred, Fred’s wife, her plump sister, Bob Cratchit, and Tiny Tim, to whom he becomes “a second father.”
So, too, nothing that the Ghost of Christmas Present shows to the old miser comes true. The guests at Fred’s Christmas party won’t make fun of Scrooge, because Scrooge will be there. The Cratchits won’t have their little goose, “eked out by apple-sauce and mashed potatoes.” They’ll have instead the enormous “prize turkey” Scrooge has sent.
Meanwhile, the characters are as unconvincing as the plot. The critic Edmund Wilson once suggested that the solution to the main figure’s psychology lay in recognizing that Scrooge was a deeply divided man who would shortly revert to his miserliness. But even to speak of “Scrooge’s psychology” is to miss the point—like demanding to see character development in Little Red Riding Hood and the big, bad wolf.
In the months before he wrote A Christmas Carol in 1843, Dickens’ serial publication of Martin Chuzzlewit had not been going well, the first of his full novels to receive less than universal acclaim. . . . . He was supporting a huge household far beyond his income, he had to act as his own promoter and copyright protector, and he had written six major novels in seven years. “It is impossible to go on working the brain to that extent for ever,” he told Forster. “The very spirit of the thing, in doing it, leaves a horrible despondency behind.”
So he decided, in cold, commercial calculation, that he would write a Christmas story and make the £l,000 he needed to take his family away to Italy for a long vacation.
And so
A Christmas Carol was born. Bottum says that "Dickens is like some mad magician, incapable of
not transforming each thing that happens to catch his eye." His magic, the magic of this work, is words and the way Dickens used them. Plot and character development could come together in any way they might, but words were worked over and over until they read "There were ruddy, brown-faced, broad-girthed Spanish Onions, shining in the fatness of their growth like Spanish Friars, and winking from their shelves in wanton slyness at the girls as they went by, and glanced demurely at the hung-up mistletoe," as just one example. Dickens' words were more important to him than whether there was accuracy in his story, or what motivated Scrooge, or whether he would stay a reformed miser and be a nice guy the rest of his life.
Mal
ALF
December 11, 2004 - 07:01 pm
I just enjoy the story, never being a "stickler" while reading a novel. I just go with the flow of the author's world and words.
colkots
December 11, 2004 - 07:49 pm
I, too, go with the flow.
Close to 20 years ago, when my daughter Nina was in High School she was
cast in the Chicago Goodman Theater's annual professional production of A Christmas Carol.She played Martha Cratchit and understudied Belle. I still have the theatre poster and the script. The script itself follows the book very closely. This was an excellent production,the atmosphere, sets, lighting and special effects very believable.
I asked Nina today how she enjoyed performing in that theatre,(it was
familiar territory to her as the Theater School's Children's productions were done there when her brother was a student) She said " it was great,I loved it BUT you guys had Christmas without me.." we celebrate Wigilia..Christmas Eve and she was working.!
Even though we brought some of our Polish foods for the cast..it wasn't the same for her. Colkot
jeanlock
December 12, 2004 - 09:05 am
Did anyone besides me think that the Kelsey Grammer Christmas Carol was just about the worst version they've ever seen? It was the least watched program for that night. I stuck with it, getting madder by the minute. Bah humbug!
Scrawler
December 12, 2004 - 11:00 am
"I have come to bring you home, dear brother!" said the child, clapping her tiny hands, and bending down to laugh.
"Home, for good and all. Home, for ever and ever. Father is so much kinder than he used to be, that home's like Heaven! He spoke so gently to me one dear night when I was going to bed, that I was not afraid to ask him once more if you might come home; and he said Yes, you should; and sent me in a coach to bring you. And you're to be a man!" said the child, opening her eyes, "and are never to come back here; but first, we're to be together all the Christmas long, and have the merriest time in all the world."
"You are quite a woman, little Fran!" Explained the boy."
When John Dickens was released from his debts,he rescued his son from the blacking work, and sent him to a school in London where he remained until the age of fifteen. Dickens's mother, however, was in favor of leaving her oldest son at work to help out the family and Dickens felt that his mother had betrayed him. His older sister Fanny had been able to continue her studies at the Royal Academy of Music throughout the debtor's prison period. Did Dickens also think that his sister had betrayed him as well?
I can understand why Dickens's mother wanted him to help out the family by continuing his work since his father John could not really be relied upon. But why was his older sister Fanny allowed to continue her music studies throughout the time her father was in debtor's prison?
If Fanny was the model for Fan than Dickens portrayed her in a pleasing way: "You are quite a woman, little Fan!" "Always a delicate creature, whom a breath might have withered...But she had a large heart!"
Barbara St. Aubrey
December 12, 2004 - 02:27 pm
I think scrawler it was typical of families with girls - even my father who was born in 1900 had to quit school after the 4th grade to work while my aunt, his older sister continued through the 8th grade which for an average girl then was quite a bit of education. The whole protection thing and the concept of ownership of girls is part of the picture - girls must be the best goods to marry well...
Hehehe then my Aunt married a sailor which was considered lower than a junk man - there were no garbage men yet - pigs did the job.
Malryn (Mal)
December 12, 2004 - 04:14 pm
My father had three brothers and five sisters. All of the males were taken out of school and put to work for the simple reason that my grandfather couldn't afford to feed and clothe them all.
The girls stayed home and went to school when they could, in between caring for the chickens, milking the cows, tending the garden, harvesting and canning the food, helping my grandmother bake bread and cook the food, cleaning house, taking care of the little ones, doing the sewing, washing and ironing and all the other work that had to be done at home. In Maine farm country, there weren't too many outside jobs available for females anyway.
I've been reading Dickens' "Hard Times" today. Some scholars have commented on the enthusiasm, vitality and energy that shows in his writing. This is Dickens the man showing through. Reading the hard stuff is easy because of this. I commented on this early in this discussion. Regardless how dark the subject about which Dickens wrote, there's life and humor in his work. Look at the names! All the names in A Christmas Carol and names like Mrs. Sparsit, Mr. Bounderby and Thomas Gradgrind in "Hard Times."
The Dickensian world. Read this:
"Jane Carlyle did see him (Dickens) at that party for the actor William Charles Macready’s children. She hadn’t slept well for weeks—hadn’t slept at all for two nights—and she was quarreling again with her husband, Thomas Carlyle. But once there, she found herself, like everyone else, caught up in the Dickensian world.
" 'Dickens and Forster, above all, exerted themselves till the perspiration was pouring down and they seemed drunk with their efforts,” she described it in a letter.
Only think of that excellent Dickens playing the conjuror for one whole hour—the best conjuror I ever saw . . . Then the dancing . . . the gigantic Thackeray &c &c all capering like Maenades!!'
" 'After supper when we were all madder than ever with the pulling of crackers, the drinking of champagne, and the making of speeches; a universal country dance was proposed—and Forster seizing me round the waist whirled me into the thick of it, and made me dance!! like a person in the treadmill who must move forward or be crushed to death. Once I cried out, 'Oh for the love of Heaven let me go! you are going to dash my brains out against the folding doors!'
'Your brains!!' he answered, 'who cares about their brains here? Let them go!' ”
Ginny
December 12, 2004 - 06:43 pm
Oh my, my goodness, lots of new friends come to join us, welcome, welcome, All, here in this good hall! Judy the Kay, Stigler, welcome welcome!! Oh no Anneo, computer problems, no no! We will miss you!
Good HEAVENS where does the time go, it can't BE the 12th can it? Surely not!?! Surely not another week almost gone, our time grows short as the Ghost said, golly moses.
Have loved everything you all have put here, and want to say more about it, but I have a couple of things to add, first, from the notes in my book, one of them about the mince pies that Malryn mentioned. I love mince pie, too. My husband refers to it as lard pie, and he's right, that is a major ingredient. We got in quite a dispute about it one year. I don't care what's in it, I love them and only at Christmas, and pretty much the same ingredients as Malryn has posted, but apparently the pie and the ingredients once had religious connotations also, my book says:
Mince pies were a staple of the medieval English Christmas table, which survives the present. Yet the Protestants once objected to the Christmas pie as a superstitious remnant of the Roman Catholic Church: the ingredients (as late as the eighteenth century being neat's tongues, chicken, eggs, sugar, currants, lemon and orange peel, and various spices) were said to correspond to the gifts of the Magi, and the pasty was generally oblong in shape in imitation of the crèche. Fortunately the custom was preserved in the countryside, notably in Cornwall.
William Sandys included an ancient Cornish recipe in the introduction to Christmas Carols, Ancient and Modern (1833). A pound of beef-suet chopped fine; a pound of raisins, do. stoned. A pound of currants cleaned dry. A pound of apples chopped fine. Two or three eggs. Allspice beat very fine; and sugar to your taste. A little sale, and as much brandy and wine as you like.
Sandys suggested if you added scant meat, the pie would stay fresher longer.
He also mentioned another Christmas custom, "In as many different houses as you can eat mince-pies during Christmas, so many happy months will you have in the ensuing year."
It's amazing sometimes the connotations things have!
I have two...good luck customs at Christmas and New Years. One is to eat herring in sour cream with onions on New Year's Eve and New Year's Day and the other is to eat mince pie at Christmas, both bring good luck, I guess I am at heart a medievalist! Hahaah (or just superstitious). Works better than hoppin'John and Collards!
The music for Sir Roger de Coverley is reproduced in the book but it's very tiny, is this a tune any of you have ever heard of? Apparently it's a very involved dance, a country dance, also called "slip," or "Sir Roger."
A dance, according to my book, similar to the Virginia Reel. (Which probably came from England originally?)
The pattern of it, however, sounds VERY complicated, do any of you know anything about it?
What did you all make of the light? The light that emanated from the Ghost of Christmas Past which Scrooge objected to and Scrooge wanted to dim, I was not sure about. I thought the reaction of the Ghost to Scrooge's wanting to put out his light very striking, and then at the end (see heading) he put it out?
I am not sure I understand the...why the Ghost carried this sort of…..extinguisher around with him? Why would he??
I am not sure what's being symbolized there.
Scrooge himself, would you say, symbolizes...well we can say a lot of things, but what does (this is not in the book) the Ghost of Christmas Past symbolize and why all this about the light?
I am sure it symbolizes something?
OH whoa, my book does have a note, check this out:
"Scrooge..could not hide the light." Dickens suggests that the light to memory is not so easily snuffed out; Scrooge, despite his struggle with the Ghost, cannot forget the lesson it has taught him.
OK! Well now if that light the Ghost has is memory that explains why Scrooge found it too bright at first and complained and why the Ghost questioned him about it! Works for me, what do YOU think, which is more to the point!
I tell you what, I LOVE annotated books, I wish everything on earth were annotated! The Annotated Life! I think I'll write a book about that!
I was just thinking also what strange things we like eat at the holidays? I was remembering now we have to have those maple sugar leaves, too, and I'm wondering what foods you all like to have especially at Christmas that you might not eat any other time of year, is there anything?
An apple, a pear, a plum, a cherry for your thoughts!
Barbara St. Aubrey
December 12, 2004 - 07:15 pm
Jeane
December 12, 2004 - 07:24 pm
I used to own an annotated edition of Moby Dick.
Ginny, are you part Scandinavian? Don't people from Norway eat herring?
I'm half Swedish. Years ago when I was still working I discovered the Swedish American fair. Because I went early on a Sunday morning, I was fortunate to be there when they brought in the homemade Stollen bread (I think it was called Stollen). It was oblong and had cinnamon in it, I think.
The other bread tho that they brought in were the saffron roles. Those sold out like crazy. I bought a few and froze them, enjoying one a day until Christmas. They are a simple braided bread about 6" long with raisins and colored yellow by the saffron. I think the yellow symbolizes light or the sun since Sweden is so far north and doesn't get a lot of light. Girls are selected to portray St. Lucia and wear crowns of lit candles on their heads. If anyone wants to make these descriptions more accurate, please feel free.
Dad never celebrated any Swedish culture and traditions in our home. I just brought out my Swedish red painted wooden candle holder with 5 candles and also my Swedish chimes where the heat from the candles makes angels turn and hit the chimes.
My mother was adopted so I don't know that side of me. Her stepparents were from New England; they could be English.
The work and responsibilities children had in earlier generations is amazing. My Dad only completed the 6th grade.
Enough rambling.
Ginny
December 12, 2004 - 07:43 pm
What fun to be reading this with you all, I have wanted to do this for years and it's just as fun as I thought it would be! I agree, Ann, it's very enjoyable.
Jeane, hahaah on the cranberries, we have a persimmon tree, but have never made anything out of it, your Cranberry pudding (the one that didn't hit the fan) hahahaah does sound wonderful!
I LOVE hard sauce, where on earth did you find it, did you make it? I LOVE hard sauce!
Barbara, that's an edition I am not familiar with but I sure am glad you have it! I am glad we are reading this too, have always WANTED to and PLANNED to but never got to it. Fun fun fun!
Interesting on the weekly magazines. I used to love the Saturday Evening Post, didn't Jeeves and Wooster appear there?
Great article, thank you! We forget he had…what 12 children? Lots of children, unhappy marriage tho?
I visited his house, was it only this last summer, in England, very TALL house in London, steep steps, very nice rooms tho, very cramped for a million kids, super thing about a clock if I can find the photo, he must have had the legs of a gazelle!
Stigler, welcome welcome and what a novel idea for a play, Marley irritated because Scrooge was given the chance to change and he was not! But it's a chance and hope of Marley's procuring! I wish you could see it too, I wish we all could so we could comment!
So glad you are enjoying this, so glad to have you!
Malryn, WASN'T that interesting, 20 legs, oh GOOD point about MEMORY itself being fickle! Well done!! Oh almost missed the part about your cat, hope she? is feeling a lot better!
Oh and now you have found a passage I must have skipped over, so…it's the Scrooges that make the…Ghosts of Christmas past WEAR this…cap? Oh boy how did I miss all that!
Good point on the mortal and liable to fall, I love that part where the Ghost says bear but a touch of my hand and you shall be upheld in more than this (didn't look that up,) but was startled at WHERE he put his hand, did you see that?
more….
Ginny
December 12, 2004 - 07:50 pm
Oh Jeane, I see you asked me a question there and I did not see it! No am not Swedish and what beautiful customs you mention, wonder why your Dad didn't want to practice them in the home, I had forgotten about St. Lucia and the breads sound WONDERFUL!
And you're right, the Norwegians and Swedish really do have a way with herring and all fish, no that's a Jewish custom at New Years and it made such an impression on me (and I love herring in sour cream with onions that I've got a jar of it here already waiting for the New Year). I can't convince anybody but my husband to eat it, tho , but it's to die for. (In the supermarket, Nova makes a very good brand! It's in a glass jar and is refrigerated. I know some people woudn't touch it, they want it fresh or to do it themselves, but I like it in the jar. hahaah)
I got into baking late in life and don't have any pretty stollen or things I traditionally make, I do have a fabulous cranberry salad, and the same old squash things that everybody else does. We just have the same thing everybody else does, I need to get on the stick and be DIFFERENT!
Ginny
December 12, 2004 - 07:52 pm
Oh good point Ann on the power of illustrations, some of the woodcuts are out of this world.
Scrawler, thank you for bringing up Dickens' visit to America!
And good point Judythe Kay on the US Security, do you have the Hearn?
Thank you so much for that historical note, it's amazing what all is embedded in this thing that we (or at least, I) never realized. There is a good bit in my book about how the Americans smarted from his remarks as a result of that trip that Scrawler mentioned.
Oh wonderful point Andrea on the child in all of us, that being one reason why the strange appearance of the Ghost. Yes such beautiful passages, so evocative!
Bimde, good points on the tenderest bloom on the skin, that seemed strange, I appreciate that explanation!
Malryn what lovely writing of your memories of your aunt and uncle and Christmas cooking when you were a child!
Jeane, I think you can have anything you WANT at Christmas for a pie!!
Actually I was told this and didn't believe it, but Mrs. Smith's makes a very good mince pie!!
Oh good, Scrawler, I'm glad you are taking up the cap thing!
Good point, now let's ask ourselves: should SCROOGE have held on to his past or not? In other words, why is the Ghost showing him this? Why show him alone at his desk? For what reason? He knows he was miserable?
Oh beautiful writing Scrawler about the difficulty of going "home" again and the Industrial Revolution, half of the woodcuts in the book I have are about the squalidness of the city, but some are not, am saving them for the next chapter.
And Barbara, what wonderful illustrations!!
Wow great history on the British Mail service and the fantastically illustrated Mulready Envelope! Very little room for address but I do see in the lower example a very simple address, that really shows how much time has passed, it takes 5 lines now to send something to England or more! Fascinating!
Jeane, I did not KNOW that they have proposed raising the stamp to 41 cents! Good grief!
Oh good point Andrea about put a lid on it, I think you all have really gotten to the heart of this spirit!
And good point about Scrooge's choice at the end, it's been his choices that got him where he is!
I'm so glad you mentioned, Scrawler, on what books meant to Dickens!
Funny, Malryn, on the giant turkey and how long it took to cook it, funny note.
Do you all agree with Bottum that Dickens abandoned plot and character development or paid little attention, what an interesting article!
Colkot, what is Wigillia?
I think it would be marvelously exciting to act in this as a play!
Jeanlock, I think some of us here loved Kelsey Grammar's version and some like me couldn't get thru it.
They did show it twice because it appears it was not watched the first time, but heck, the Broadway play Bombay Dreams is closing New Year's Day and has closed in London and I have seen IT 4 times, 3 in London 1 in NYC and would gladly again. I love the music. I understand it's going to tour the US tho, so that's something, so ratings don't always mean everything, what did you not like about it?
Scrawler, thank you for that historical background on Dickens and his mother!! I do not know the answer to your question about Fanny and her studies! Fascinating.
Good point, Barbara, about girls at that time and boys having to work early.
Oh I love the description of Dickens, himself, thank you Malryn. Hard Times is supposed to be one of his best, I love David Copperfield, it's so richly written, we MUST read a Dickens in the new year and treat OURSELVES, we deserve it!
Well we've done a splendid job with The Ghost of Christmas Past, and we have tomorrow yet, is there any point anybody would like to make or add or something anybody would like to say about this or the preceding chapter?
According to my book the neighboring church which strikes the four quarters in the beginning of this Stave has been identified as St. Andrew's Undershaft, at the corner of Leadenhall Street and St. Mary Avenue. I don't recall ever having seen it.
And when Scrooge hears the clock strike twelve, "he touched the spring of his repeater…" My book says that a repeater is: Repeating watch or clock, invented about 1767, able to strike the hour and quarter hour when a button is pushed. Not all of these timepieces were as cheap as Scrooge's must be.
I've never heard of a repeater! And I've read this before many times, and just did not notice it!!
OK now we have a day here, and let's not forget the film adaptations!
Which of the screen adaptations do you think comes closest to the real, or what we've just read as the real Ghost of Christmas Past as Dickens described it?? I really have to say that the ones with women should be out, don't you? I've seen them with old women and young women, I don't get the sense here this is a woman, what do you think?
I wish my book were indexed, somewhere there is something about TIME, do any of you have it? Scrooge at the beginning of this, knows the time is off, it was after 2 when he went to bed and now the clocks are striking twelve, so time is moving backwards? ….is that because of the compressed time in which the Ghosts appear?
And THAT is interesting in itself because of the way Dickens shows the aging and warping of the very buildings as they time warp right before Scrooge's eyes, very interesting book we're reading here!
What are your last thoughts tonight and tomorrow the 13th on this Stave 2??
Barbara St. Aubrey
December 12, 2004 - 08:19 pm
Wow OK Ginny you are busy tonight - here is the info on the repeater
Repeater Clock: Before the days of artificial light, it was difficult to read a clock at night without the performance of lighting a candle with flint and tinder. Some of the best BRACKET CLOCKS could therefore be made to repeat the time on bells. Usually there is a cord with a button on the end from each side of the clock which is pulled to load and operate the REPEATING WORK. This is called a 'pull repeater'. Most clocks are QUARTER REPEATERS, invented by Edward BARLOW in 1676; some are HALF-QUARTER REPEATERS, arid a few FIVE MINUTE REPEATERS. MINUTE REPEATERS are known from the eighteenth century. The repeater clock went out of fashion when matches were invented in the first quarter of the nineteenth century.
Repeater Watch: A pocket watch which will repeat the time on a bell, GONG, or the watch case itself. Intended mainly for use in the dark. The first, QUARTER REPEATERS, were invented by Edward BARLOW and Daniel QUARE near the end of the seventeenth century. BREGUET employed wire gongs in 1789. Other types are MINUTE (introduced in the nineteenth century), HALF QUARTER, and FIVE MINUTE REPEATER. There is no special winding button for the repeating work; on earlier watches the PENDANT of the watch is pressed and on later ones a slide on the side of the case is moved (which loads a spring) and when released sets the REPEATER going.
As to your asking about special Christmas food - I bet we all have special desserts and cookies that are only prepared at Christmas time - for us there were Nurnberger, Lebkuchen, Berliner Kranser, my mother's special Butter cookies, my favorites Pfeffernusse - always a lion of Pork with sauerkraut for New Years good luck dinner with tortillas topped with black beans for supper.
We never did a big Christmas dinner since the children were always full of all the goodies including the tangerine in the bottom of the stocking but after they grew up we usually had a buffet with rabbit stew, black bread and all the Christmas cookies.
Growing up my Aunt made a Stollens every year, one for each family. My Grandmother preferred the stollen after it got a bit stale and she could dunk it in her coffee for breakfast or at elevensies.
Since we kept advent there was many a meatless meal and one of my favorites was potato pancakes with my mother's applesauce, and to divert food money into Christmas we ate lots of Eggs Goldenrod starting before Thanksgiving Day.
When I was a little older but still in Grade School on through High School years, my Mother, my one Sister and I went to mid-night Mass together - when we returned we always had what was a real treat - Bacon, tomato and lettuce sandwiches on rye bread with Hellman's mayonnaise. With my Father and the two little ones asleep we finished all the last minute Santa things. In our house you went to bed Christmas Eve with the only sign of Christmas being the cookies made, the Advent Wreathe, and the pile of Christmas books and Advent Calendar that arrived each year on the feast of St. Nicholas after we left our letter the night before -
On Christmas Eve during the night Saint Nicholas put up and decorated a tree, put a wreathe on the front door and these small bottle brush wreathes in all the windows, set up the stable under the tree, arranged the presents next to the tree, set the table for Christmas breakfast, and filled the stockings that were set at the bottom of our beds. [so we would eat our tangerine or orange, the few cookies and play with the small toy in the stocking so parents could have another half hour of sleep]
No one could get out of bed until our father lit the tree and said it was OK to come. After we opened our gifts they were all set up in their boxes like a store display - any toy we played with would be put back under the tree after we played with it in its box and standing up or leaning - when Aunts, Uncles and cousins, family friends and grandparents came to visit we showed each item just as we sat and wanted to see each item at my cousin's house - Gifts were finally put up on Epiphany but the tree stayed up often till the feast of St. Stephens. I kept all these same traditions with my children.
Our Christmas and New Year celebrations were all about children and family rather than parties - on New Year there were fireworks in front of the house and sparklers - it was the sparklers that I loved - they reminded me of fairy lights - and my Uncle always came early on New Year's day with a new broom - giving and receiving a broom on New Years Day was more luck. His birthday was on New Year's Day and he started his celebration very early so that by the time he got to us around 9:30 he was already in his cupps but he was funny, so we all had to laugh.
The best part of Christmas was Christmas night when all the family got together - Aunts and Uncles playing the piano, accordion and violin - everyone singing and a few of us kids lay on our stomachs at the edge of the tree, looking up through the branches at all the ornaments and lights - our parents scolded if they saw us but, we played with the manger as if it were a doll house moving the characters to the well known story, trying the angle first on top of the stable and then looking through the window, moving the shepherds around and seeing how the kings would look up close but then putting them back knowing they did not arrive near the stable for two weeks - magical memories...
Malryn (Mal)
December 12, 2004 - 08:57 pm
That was a lovely post, BARBARA. Thank you.
One of the fondest Christmas memories I have is of the candlelight service at the Universalist-Unitarian Church I went to as a child. Everyone was given a beeswax candle when he or she went in, and toward the end of the service, which was mostly the singing of carols, all of the lights, except those above the altar, were put out and all of the candles were lit. The entire sanctuary smelled like beeswax and the undecorated balsam fir trees which banked the altar. It's a wonderful memory to have.
My dear little black cat, Mitta Baben, who was with me for fifteen years, died this evening while my daughter and I were watching television, as we do for an hour each night. It was one of Mitta's favorite times of the day. My daughter would lie on the couch, and Mitta would snuggle up to her. She was a sweet little cat, and I feel very sad and alone without her tonight. Mitta's final resting place is near my David Austen Heritage rosebush in the garden.
Mal
Stigler
December 13, 2004 - 06:02 am
Mal, I am so sorry for your loss of your little cat. Isn't it amazing how close we can get to our little pets.
Judy
Malryn (Mal)
December 13, 2004 - 07:50 am
Thank you, JUDY. I posted in WREX that close animal friends give all they have to us, and we give them part of our hearts. I am alone most of the time, and Mitta Baben rarely ever left my side. She curled up in a chair close to this computer, and it was natural to put my hand out and pet her from time to time. Now all I touch is air. You can't reach out and touch and feel memories. At least today I don't feel as lost and desolate as I did half the night.
GINNY, I love creamed herring and onion. Thanks for the tip about Mrs. Smith's mince pie.
As I said, I've been reading the online version of "Hard Times." I think I'm hooked on Dickens; want to read everything of his I can find. I read so much of his work when I was a youngster. Thanks to this discussion, it's time to go back again.
Now let me see if I can find anything interesting to say today about this stave of A Christmas Carol. When I read the word, "stave", I immediately thought of the staffs in music. Yes, indeedy, Dickens to me is a musical writer. I love the way he writes.
Mal
Ginny
December 13, 2004 - 08:22 am
Malryn, I am so sorry to hear about your cat, and I know it's very difficult at this time, my sympathy, they don't live long enough!
Strangest thing,right before I read your post last night there was a bump at the window here and I was alone, my husband is in Georgia, and I thought well better go get the gun (we're a bit isolated here) and got up and looked out the window and there was a ghostly looking white cat walking on the windowsill, scared the bejeebers out of me (my own Ghost?) at any rate the cat looked at me, and I it, and we both jumped hahaa, it was a freak thing.
As Dickens says, this is a season where abundance rejoices and any want is keenly felt. I am sorry. Christmas, tho, this time of year, does recall sad memories, Dickens was quite prescient in that, wasn't he, there's a mix of sadness and joy, in every Christmas and in the one he shows here, too. Nothing else quite like it. I think that's why I enjoy Christmas Mysteries, murder mysteries that take place AT Christmas, am reading quite a good one now, An English Murder by Cyril Hare, not at all the cutsey, grind those dimples way of writing our new mystery writers have, quite a bit of sour….dignified cultured sour, with your sweet.
But I went looking for more on Sir Roger de Coverley and found all kinds of things. I can't get a blow up of the music, so will take it to the piano and see if we recognize the tune, but there's a book about him and then just LOOK at this!!!! I wanted to copy the text in here, but I do see that COPYRIGHT big and bold, so will just put the link, but print this OUT if you dare, it's a take off, an examination of the difficulties one has reconstructing Dickens' Sir Roger de Coverley dance in 2004~!
Dickens' Sir Roger de Coverley examined!
Ginny
December 13, 2004 - 08:34 am
Well my goodness, what an absolute joy, turn THIS on and see if you can stop dancing around the Christmas Table, figuratively or like Don MacNeal!!
Sir Roger de Coverley! Click to play
Gosh. Can't you just HEAR the sounds the stomping feet must have made on those old wood floors!!
See the fiddler in the back? That's all they needed to make merry, a fiddler and some feet on a wooden floor and the spirit! We have come a long way from this, are we any better or did they know something we don't?
Malryn (Mal)
December 13, 2004 - 09:29 am
Fezziwig wears a "Welch wig." So what's a Welch wig?
"welsh (or welch) wig - woolen or worsted cap, originally made in Montgomery, Wales. Old Fezziwig, in A Christmas Carol, wears a welsh wig."
Is this why Dickens called him Fezziwig? What's fezzi mean, fuzzy?
Norman Rockwell did a wonderful Dickensian Fezziwig-type painting, which I've put on a little card for you.
CLICK HERE to see it.
Mal
Malryn (Mal)
December 13, 2004 - 09:58 am
Thank you, GINNY-who-has-her-own-white-Christmas-ghost! I think of those among us like ELLA, who have had great losses this past year. Each Christmas I feel sad about all the empty chairs at the table that have accumulated over the years.
Instead of harboring sadness, I decided to take your advice and just ordered An English Murder to read over the holidays.
Mal
bimde
December 13, 2004 - 11:53 am
Mal, My sympathy on the loss of your kitty. We went through the same thing two years ago. Our kitty had been with us for 18 years, and she was especially fond of my husband. He named her the minute he saw her--Felina. We live in an isolated area, and one night she got
out, and something got her, hurt her badly. When we found her, it was too late. But, she came home to die. We still miss her, even tho we have another cat. And, yes there are empty places at our table at Christmas. Wouldn't it be nice if, like Scrooge, we could go back in time, and enjoy again the things that we took for granted then? Memories help a lot, and they also make us so nostalgic. But, we can't go back, so let's enjoy now. Like your enjoying your new book!
Scrawler
December 13, 2004 - 12:58 pm
Cats, dogs and horses are very sensitive toward negative influences and supply us humans with an early warning system. So the cat you saw Ginny was probably there to protect you. Mal I'm glad you had the companionship of your "little black cat." She must have loved you very much to allow you to be near her when she passed. It is more common for animals, but especially cats to go off alone to die.
"She died a woman," said the Gost, "and had, as I think, childen."
"One child," Scrooge returned.
"True," said the Ghost. "Your nephew!"
Scrooge seemed uneasy in his mind; and answered briefly, "Yes."
The Doughty Street household consisted not only of Dickens and Kate and their child but of Kate's younger sister, Mary Hogarth, who had sometimes stayed with them earlier at Furnival's Inn to help her sister during pregnancy and to be a companion for her brother-in-law- a not unusual arrangement in the nineteenth-century families. What was unusual was the intensity of Dickens's feeling about this seventeen-year-old girl.On May 7, 1837, after attending an evening showing of "The Villiage Coquettes", the two sisters and Dickens had returned home, where Mary was suddenly stricken with some unidentified illness, and the next day she died in Dickens arms.
The shock of Mary's death had profound effects on Dickens as a man as well as a writer. Until the day of his own death he wore the ring she had been wearing when she died. Dickens went so far as requesting to be buried next to Mary, but this request was not granted to him. For ten months he dreamed of her every night and the dreams only ceased after he told his wife, Kate about them.
Mary Hogarth shaped Dickens' "little Nell" in "The Old Curiosity Shop" but it may also refer to the death of Fan in "A Christmas Carol." What do you folks think of the relationship between Dickens and his sister-in-law?
HelenaBiggs
December 13, 2004 - 01:53 pm
What a wonderful and enchanted this story truly is! I love sharing it with children, though some are too small to fully understand right now (4- 6 year olds?) Their attention span is much too short! I read one the BedBugg stories the other day- a short tale about a big who is afraid of the dark. And did they ever identify!!
normlet3
December 13, 2004 - 06:46 pm
Mal I am sorry along with others for the loss of your cat. The price we pay for the loss of a love of a pet is well worth it for all the comfort they give us I THINK. GBY NORM
Jeane
December 13, 2004 - 07:53 pm
This receep came from my sister many years ago.
Cook together for a few minutes: one stick butter, 1 cup sugar, 1 cup whip cream, pinch of salt. Stir in 1 teaspoon vanilla. Let come to boil. Cook 3 minutes. Pour over a steamed pudding while hot and eat right away.
Jeane
December 13, 2004 - 08:03 pm
With sympathy for the loss of your precious little Mitta. Many UU churches still hold that family service. The San Francisco church does it at 4:45pm Christmas eve and I miss it (I can't go because I'm homebound); the ministers and others read the Christmas story, everyone sings the traditional carols, then everyone's candles are lit and the lights are turned off.
Jeane
December 13, 2004 - 08:18 pm
Geeesh! So many things to respond to!
Dad's family was poor and the weather was very cold; they lived in central Sweden in the country. Once when he was a young boy he came home with his socks frozen to his feet. He was very bitter, and wouldn't talk about his life in Sweden.
He made a strong effort to become a good American citizen, speak and write good English, joined the Army Air Corp for 20 years, and after my sister and I left home he ran for the city council; he lost. I have to give him credit for his effort. He also got his GED.
Malryn (Mal)
December 13, 2004 - 09:44 pm
SCRAWLER, my cat did try to go off by herself to die. That's very hard to do in one big room, though. She went under my vanity, under a chair, under a bookcase just opposite me when I sit at this computer, and finally on a little braided rug near my feet. Thanks to all of you for what you have said. It's like losing a member of my family. My daughter told me today that she's going to take some time off from her job at Duke over the holidays. During that time she'll take me out to adopt another little cat. That is good because right now I feel as if I had been very sick right along with Mitta Baben.
Mary Hogarth was said to be the model for Marion Jeddler in Dickens' The Battle of Life: A Love Story.
"Dicken's fourth Christmas book, The Battle of Life: A Love Story, of 1846 does not share the enduring popularity of a famous predecessor A Christmas Carol. It was called `intrinsically puerile and stupid,' `a twaddling manifestation of silliness,' and `simply ridiculous' (Ford, 53). Later criticism, although less caustic in tone, recognises that the book's chief fault was its attempt to tell a tale concerning the complexities of passion and self-denial in three inadequately short chapters. Harry Stone speaks for the majority of readers by referring to The Battle of Life as `a savagely reduced work that sometimes reads like a scenario, sometimes like a breathless outline.'
"Beyond attention to the self-sacrifice is the acknowledgment that the book is commemorative of a real sister, or sister-in-law, Mary Scott Hogarth, who biographers stress held an almost magnetic attraction for Dickens both before and after her death. . . . . Freudian approaches make obvious connections between a story about a man who loves two sisters that was written by a man who loved two sisters."
Source:
Mary Hogarth and The Battle of Life Dilemma: Fidelity in a Dickensian Christmas Book.
Ginny
December 14, 2004 - 07:53 am
Helen!! Welcome, welcome here! Pull up a chair! You are right that this is too long for children and I've heard that the movies frighten them, but I have seen several children's editions of this, the most recent this year. You wouldn't happen to be the fabulous "Mrs. B" of the Latin courses, would you? If you are or if you're not, welcome here!!
Whoops! Must be something wrong with my Repeater, I'm off one day on our schedule (am having my own Time Travel here like Scrooge).
! Thank you Barbara for that additional information on the Repeater, good heavens that gives us some idea of the TIME period we're dealing with.
Barbara I really enjoyed your reminiscences and especially that about the tree appearing on Christmas Eve, we used to do that too, I think that must be a German custom, but I sure would hate to have to do it in 2004!
Malryn I think you will enjoy An English Murder, but do NOT give up on it in the first several chapters, it is deliberately creating an atmosphere, I really am enjoying it and hope you will, too. Almost through.
Bimde, wonderful point on memory at Christmas.
Scrawler, thank you for that look at the Doughty Street home of Dickens, it's the dickens to find in 2004, I can tell you that. I must confess I don't know much about Dickens and his private life, except that he did not particularly get on with his wife, let's read more about that?
Jeane, THANK you for that recipe for Hard Sauce!!!!!!! I can do THAT!!!
Lovely. I'll put in here a wonderful recipe for cranberry salad, I guarantee you have not tasted anything like it!
Don't you wish your Dad HAD talked about it? So many of our fathers and grandmothers wouldn't talk about their upbringing!! Your father sounds like a wonderful role model.
Thank you Malryn for that take on Dickens and his sister, obviously he was a fascinating man. My own uncle, upon the death of his beloved wife, married her sister, so I don't think that's unusual maybe we need to read some of Dickens' lesser known works, too, let's think of a Dickens in the new year! Never heard of the Battle of Life!
Time and Light are big issues and symbols in this book I think, and I've messed up my own time. It's been pointed out to me by one of our readers that TOMORROW is the day to begin Stave Three, not today, and I will accept that with joy as I am going out of town this morning, so let's do this? Let's say anything we'd like about Staves One and Two today OR you can move on to Three and when I get in I'll put up Stave Three in the morning and we can cheerfully Sir Roger de Coverley over in the morning. I played that all day yesterday and I must say it gets you UP and tapping and full of joy.
What a joy it is to be discussing this at this time of year, this is a desire of 8 years finally realized THIS Christmastide and I am so enjoying every comment each of you makes, and to be sharing it here online with you!
It's interesting to me the point being made, both by the Ghost of Christmas Past and Dickens, about light? Let's discuss anything today in any of the first Three Staves you wish, let's move on to the Ghost of Christmas Present if you like, what do you think of HIM? What's he meant to represent, how is he different from the Ghost of Christmas Past and what does that mean? Who does HE symbolize? What light does he have around him? Is it clear what gender HE is? Who can explain "twelfth- cakes" to us?
Barbara St. Aubrey
December 14, 2004 - 10:19 am
Quicky today - around here we call them Kings cakes - now that no one bakes at home any longer the we purchase them at the bakery for the feast of Epiphany - usually a yeast dough, they are usually circular in shape - a breakfast type coffee cake with a token [usually a charm of the baby Jesus or Mary or a lamb or a crown] mixed in the batter so that whoever gets the piece with the silver token has the blessings of the year - back when we all made our own there was a silver coin put in the batter -
In these parts those of Mexican heritage are the largest group of Catholics and since the Feast of the Epiphany is a holy day it is the Mexican bakers that have king cakes [twelth day cakes] by the score and they decorate the tops with various colored sugar - the colors are usually wild and wonderful but purple for sure along with rose and yellow then another color or two so that sections of the circle each have their assigned color. A Kings cake is rather large - about 18 to 24 inches in diametar.
Malryn (Mal)
December 14, 2004 - 11:08 am
Here are links to online texts of Dickens' The Battle of Life and Hard Times and a page which contains more dances with Christmas carols, as well as a recipe for 12th Cake.
The Battle of Life
Hard Times
Christmas Carol Dances
12th NIght Cake Recipe
colkots
December 14, 2004 - 03:55 pm
Was interested in your posting with the music.. It's a very lively dance
by the way...Nina loved being part of the show as she got to dance
and sing as well as act..my kids were dancers first because of their
Dad. Just had news of the death of a dear friend of the family and
I am saddened as I will be on a plane to Los Angeles and unable to be present at her celebratory wake. But, surprise, there's a website from the funeral home where we can post our condolences.Mind boggling.
I mentioned I went to a "Wigilia'(Vigil)meal which is the 12 course meatless supper traditionally served on Christmas Eve as the first star is seen. In the "Jaselka" (Christmas play) put on by the high school students afterwards the theme was "Iskra"(the light of hope) plus the usual Christmas characters. More later.. Colkot
Scrawler
December 14, 2004 - 07:15 pm
"Every movable was packed off, as if it were dismissed from public life for evermore; the floor was swept and watered, the lamps were trimmed, fuel was heaped upon the fire; and the warehouse was as snug, and warm, and dry, and bright a ball-room, as you would desire to see upon a winter's night.
In came a fiddler with a music-book, and went up to the lofty desk, and made an orchestra of it, and tuned like fifty stomach-aches..."
I love the image we get when Dickens says: "every movable was packed off, as if it were dismmised from public life evermore..."
I had to chuckle at the sentence: "In came a fiddler with a music-book, and went up to the lofty desk, and made an orchestra of it, and tuned like fifty stomach-aches." If you promise not to tell her, my daughter's violin when she was tuning it sounded like "fifty stomach-aches" when she first started playing the violin in grade school.
"There were more dances, and there were forfeits, and more dances, and there was cake, and there was negus, and there was a great piece of Cold Roast, and thre was a great piece of Cold Boiled, Roast and Boiled..."
Does anyone know what "forfeits" are or what "negus" was?
"During the whole of this time, Scrooge had acted like a man out of his wits. His heart and soul were in the scene, and with his former self. He coroborated everything, remembered everything, enjoyed everything, and underwent the strangest agitation..."
Is our life destined or do we like Scrooge really do have choices?
Malryn (Mal)
December 14, 2004 - 09:04 pm
We played Forfeits when I was a child in exactly the same way it is described in the linked article below. I believe Negus is mulled wine.
How to play Forfeits
Malryn (Mal)
December 14, 2004 - 09:12 pm
Recipe for Negus
600ml (1 pint) Port
600ml (1 pint) Boiling Water
85g (3oz) Sugar Cubes
1 Lemon
¼ Small Nutmeg
1 Vanilla pod
Rub sugar on rind of lemon until all zest is extracted.
Crush in basin and pour over the port and boiling water.
Add nutmeg and vanilla.
Allow to stand for a few minutes.
Serve hot.
Ginny
December 15, 2004 - 05:39 am
Marcie has put this notice out for today, FYI: SeniorNet Update: The SeniorNet web site will be updated with a new look and upgraded discussion software on December 15 and may be unavailable for part of the day. Thank you for your patience.
We're sorry not to give you more notice but our server technicians are available [on the 15th] to make the change which will give you some new discussion tools. More information to come!
I'm going to wait before posting anything today, and I encourage you all to do the same, till we see what comes over to the new server and what does not?
There's no use in duplicating work. I do have much to say, tho, have a million new pieces of information to put up (and think I WILL put up the new heading I can always copy it to post again) but essentially if you are able to read this, let's take Stave 3 through the visit to the Cratchits, there is SO much in this Stave we need to take it piecemeal.
I'd wait, however, before posting anything, it may be lost. Hold onnnnn!
Ann Alden
December 15, 2004 - 06:13 am
Discussion is of interest, come join us.
For those of you who are interested
Scheduled for Dec 15th is a PBS production entitled, "Christmas With The Mormon Tabernacle Choir". Come join us early, before the show is on, and tell us about your Christmas favorites--traditions, music.
The PBS discussions have been moved to a new folder listed under "Discussions and Chat". The title for the new discussion is listed under "Culture". Here's link to the new topic from PBS: Christmas with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir
Malryn (Mal)
December 15, 2004 - 07:26 am
Books recommended by critic and reviewer Jonathan Yardley in the Washington Post:
An Unfinished Season, by Ward Just. This novel, its author's 14th, describes a 19-year-old boy's passage to adulthood with a gravity and maturity that the conventional coming-of-age novel never achieves. It has emotional and thematic depth, rich, resonant prose and is introspective without ever being narcissistic. The story takes place in Chicago in the 1950s but is viewed from the vantage point of four decades later, which gives it distance, clarity and objectivity.
The protagonist of Philip Roth's The Plot Against America is a younger boy whose story is also told after the passage of many years. Roth's work has often given me pause in the years since the publication of his brilliant first book, Goodbye, Columbus (1959), which won a National Book Award when that still really meant something. Now as then his subject is Jewish life in the United States, but his depiction of it has taken a turn away from satire toward sympathy.something. Now as then his subject is Jewish life in the United States, but his depiction of it has taken a turn away from satire toward sympathy. The Plot Against America postulates that Charles Lindbergh defeats Franklin Roosevelt for the presidency in 1940, setting off a wave of anti-Semitism that has dire consequences for a family in Newark and its younger son, named Philip
Comedy has played a large role in much of Roth's fiction, but not this time. In John Gregory Dunne's Nothing Lost, by contrast, comedy rules. It is a serious book that has serious things to say about contemporary American life and culture, but it says them for the most part in the language of comedy.
Somewhat surprisingly, there's comedy too in Christopher Tilghman's Roads of the Heart. Like his previous books it is about fathers and sons, but this time it treats the subject in a way that is as much antic as ruminative.
Satire rather than comedy is the business of Stephen Amidon's Human Capital, a novel about suburban life during the boom-and-bust 1990s. A husband and father overreaches himself out of a foolish desire to keep pace with the fast-buck people who have invaded his once sleepy New England town, with consequences he cannot imagine
A footnote to the fiction list: three books of 2004 that I read and admired but did not review. Alphabetically by author they are: Florence of Arabia, by Christopher Buckley, a deliciously in-your-face, wholly politically incorrect and extremely funny novel about the clash of Mideast and West in a fictitious Arabian land; The Curse of the Appropriate Man, by -- tada! a woman! -- Lynn Freed, a collection of stories in which the author writes subtly, knowingly and very honestly about women's sexual lives; and The Stranger at the Palazzo d'Oro, by Paul Theroux, also a story collection, this one about men's sexual lives, and also subtle, knowing and honest.
Malryn (Mal)
December 15, 2004 - 08:06 am
I meant to post the above in the First Page Café discussion. Just ignore it, please.
Mal
Jeane
December 16, 2004 - 03:59 am
I hope that people start posting soon. People are posting in the other discussions. I read the 3rd stave. I miss reading all your wonderful Christmas posts!!!
Ginny
December 16, 2004 - 06:20 am
As you can see we still don't have the graphics uploaded which makes for a Red X where the photos should be, but I'll paste here as a jumping off place, the heading for STave 3, just ignore the Red X's please and let's hear YOUR thoughts on Stave 3!!
I agree, Jeane, I miss our cheery spot by the fire here, too, back this afternooon with a super cranberry recipe!
A Piece of Mince Pie for Your Thoughts on:
Stave Three: The Ghost of Christmas Present: Part I: Up to and including the Cratchits: Past
1. "a blaze of ruddy light…"
How does the light of the Ghost of Christmas Present differ from that of the Ghost of Christmas Past? What do they have in common?
2. "bowls of punch…"
Who IS the Ghost of Christmas Present? What is a bowl of punch? What is wassail and what is its history? What of all the descriptions of the Ghost of Christmas Present is the most striking, to you?
3. "And they stood in the city streets on Christmas morning…" Have you ever read a more evocative description of a city street in your life? What is/ are: a Norfolk Biffin a French plum gold and silver fish a twice turned gown fifteen bob (pun on Bob) a week steaming in the copper
4. "carrying their dinners to the baker's shops…"
Why are people out on Christmas morning in such droves? What are they doing carrying their dinners to the baker's shops?
5. "'I!' cried the Spirit!" What does Scrooge accuse the Ghost of Christmas Present of?
6. The Washington Post in 2002 published an article by Colonel Charles Callahan, chief of the Department of Pediatrics and Pediatric Pulmonology, called "The Case of Tiny Tim," and diagnosed Tim's medical condition as Pott's disease. ,Dr. Donald Lewis at Eastern Virginia Medical School suggests in "What Was Wrong With Tiny Tim," that he had kidney disease, renal tubular acidosis." Both these conditions are ameliorated or erased by diet, fresh air and sunshine. What other diagnoses have you heard to explain Tim's condition?
6. Who played the part of Tiny Tim on the stage in Dickens' day. Who might the part have been written about?
7. "There are some upon this earth of yours," returned the Spirit, "who lay claim to know us, and who do their deeds of passion, pride, ill-will, hatred, envy, bigotry , and selfishness in our name; who are as strange to us and al our kith and kin, as if they had never lived. Remember that, and charge their doings on themselves, not us." What is this in reference to? What does it remind you of in other literature? What speech of the First Ghost does this echo?
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anneofavonlea
December 16, 2004 - 06:53 am
really just checking to see if this works, as it new.
My first job paid 15 bob a week, which was 15 shillings, and in todays world would be $1:50, my how times have changed.
We boiled our plum pudding in the copper,which is also where we boiled our clothes, the copper was a rather large rounded vat, lined with copper, so as not to stain clothes boiled within. It was in the yard fitted into a stand and we lit a fire underneath.
I believe I saw somewhere that the bakers were open so that the poor could heat their christmas dinner, not sure where I read it though.
we always have a bowl of punch at christmas, served in a large crystal bowl and ladled into cups for drinking. Since joining senior net and learning about eggnog, we now use the punchbowl to serve it after vigil Mass on christmas eve.
Anneo
Malryn (Mal)
December 16, 2004 - 07:10 am
Biffin cakes are made from Norfolk Beefing (Biffin) apples. An 1882 recipe says:
Choose Norfolk Biffins with the clearest, most blemish free rinds, than lay them whole on clean straw on baking wire and cover well with more straw. Set them in a slow oven for 4 to 5 hours. Draw them out and press them very gently, otherwise the skins will burst. Return them to the oven for another hour, then press them again. When cold, rub them over with clarified sugar. When ready to serve, pull tough skins away before coring them. Roll in caster sugar and serve with fresh cream.
Malryn (Mal)
December 16, 2004 - 07:37 am
I don't know if this applies, but there is a kind of pottery, which is glazed gold on the outside and silver inside that's called "Gold and Silver Fish."
Twice turned dress: In the old days of "Waste not, Want not", the collars and cuffs of men's shirts and women's blouses and dresses were removed and turned inside out; then sewn back again. When this was done, the garment looked new.
Of course, I would say Tiny Tim was suffering the aftereffects of polio. It's said that Dickens modeled this character after his sister Fanny's son, Henry Burnett (1839-1849). Henry had suffered a crippling illness, but I can't find out what it was diagnosed as.
Mal
Ginny
December 16, 2004 - 07:50 am
Wonderful submissions and so glad to see you back, Anneo, now we know why there was a smell of linens!
Malryn, I do have a photo of Harry Burnett, to put up when things are more stable. He died of tuberculosis at the age of 9, and he was Dickens's sister Fanny's son.
Angelic looking child, more anon!!
Roseda
December 16, 2004 - 09:46 am
I am unhappy that the print is so small and I don`t know how to enlarge it now that you have changed servers. Please help me. Roseda
Malryn (Mal)
December 16, 2004 - 10:27 am
ROSEDA, scroll up to the top of this page. In the right hand corner you'll see FONT OPTIONS. Click on it, and it will take you to where you can choose the type and size font you want.
Mal
Scrawler
December 16, 2004 - 12:06 pm
"He has the power to render us happy or unhappy; to make our service light or burdensome; a pleasure or a toil. Say that his power lies in words and looks; in things so slight and insignificant that it is impossible to add and count them up: what then? the happiness he gives, is quite as great as if it cost a fortune."
I think this passage might refer to Dickins trip to America. He was appalled when he witnessed first hand "slavery" in the South.
"It matters litle," she said, softly. "To you, very little. Another idol has displaced me; and if it can cheer and comfort you in time to come, as I would have tried to do, I have no just cause to grieve."
"Our contract is an old one. It was made when we were both poor and content to be so, until, in good season, we could improve our worldly fortune by our patient industry. You are changed. When it was made, you were another man."
"In a changed nature; in an altered spirit; in another atmosphere of life; another Hope as its great end. In everything that made my love of any worth or value in your sight. If this had never been between us," said the girl, looking mildly, but with steadiness, upon him; "tell me, would you seek me out and try to win me now? Ah, no!"
I think this passage refers to his love affair with Maria Beadnell. Maria was sent aboard to a finishing school in Paris, and after her return, her interest in Dickens had cooled altogether. In March 1833, he returned all the letters she had written to him, lamenting his fate and reminding her that she had been "the object of my first, and my last love." The infatuation lasted four years, and the frustrations of the relationship were even more painful for Dickens to look back upon then were his experiences at the warehouse.
Jeane
December 16, 2004 - 08:15 pm
Gad that Biffin cake receep. No wonder women had to work so hard and so long. Now our food comes prepared and packaged and has no nutritious value.
Waste not, want not. I'm 63 and I was taught how to darn socks in the late 40s by a stepmom or my stepgran. Of course I soon never kept it up. Now when holes develop in socks, we throw them away. I also learned how to hand repair seams and sew on buttons and thought nothing of it. I haven't done that for years!
Malryn (Mal)
December 17, 2004 - 06:07 am
Reading A Christmas Carol again has made me remember Christmases past. One of the most memorable Christmases in my life was the one in 1935 when I was 7 years old. I had been very, very sick in bed for months, since the previous July. Right around Thanksgiving the uncle who raised me decided to take me outside for a breath of fresh air. He said it was a test, and that if it worked out all right I'd be able to go downstairs on Christmas day.
He bundled me up and carried me downstairs and strapped me into a little chair on the porch so I wouldn't fall over. I wasn't outside very long, but it certainly felt good after all that long time in one room. My uncle said I'd done all right and would be able to go downstairs again on Christmas.
When Christmas finally came, I remember that he carried me down and sat in a chair in the living room with me on his lap so I could look at the tree. I'd never seen so many Christmas presents in my life. Apparently people in the church my aunt and uncle attended had sent gifts to "the little lame girl", a name I was called throughout childhood. So did people on Merrimack Street downtown where my aunt worked. There were crayons and coloring books, paper dolls, small gifts for a child whose real parents had been too poor during the Depression to give much more than an orange and a piece of candy to their children.
Another Christmas I remember was in 1959. My husband had had a very serious operation on his kidney. I was within 3 weeks of being 9 months pregnant. All of my time was spent changing my husband's bandage every hour and taking care of my two little boys. I hadn't had much chance to shop except for a few things for the children, and there was no Christmas tree. In the middle of the morning there was a knock at the door. I answered it to find my husband's boss and his wife. They had brought with them Christmas cookies and cake and little treats for the children. I'll always be grateful for their kindness.
In 1976 I was living alone in a three room apartment in northern Massachusetts. My marriage had ended, and I was 200 miles away from my kids and the 10 room house life I had known in New York where Christmas was full of music and festivity.
When I woke Christmas morning, I got dressed and got ready to start cooking. I had invited my uncle, then in his 80's, his companion and a neighbor of theirs for dinner. When I went out in the living room, the only sign of Christmas was a bowl full of ornaments I'd set out. I said to myself, "Mally, there isn't any Santa Claus."
I made a big Christmas dinner and served it to the three old people when they came. My uncle's neighbor was a widower of great good humor, who had lived alone for over twenty years. He savored life and every part of it, including food.
After we ate and I cleared up the dishes, I went back to my hometown nine miles away and spent the night at my uncle's neighbor's house. He scolded me if I acted depressed and lectured me for well over an hour. "Mal, it's tough out there on Main Street, and you have to go out and face it. You have to stop being a Westchester County, New York daffydil. Go out and turn all that talent into money, for God's sake!" he said. "Don't ever let me catch you sitting around moping!" I learned a big lesson that Christmas day.
Mal
Ginny
December 17, 2004 - 06:59 am
Oh Malryn that was beautiful, thank you for that. Dickens was really on to something, wasn't he, with this mix of old and new. Christmas seems to bring out, and so does Hanukkah, memories of those past, it's a mixture. I found myself yesterday thinking of my mother, a strange little memory of, gee, almost a half century ago. Her mother had Alzheimers and had to be put in a home, when my mother could no longer care for her herself. (She lived with us for years). My mother was eaten up with guilt almost until the day she died, about it, but she would visit her mother and in so doing chat with her roommate who had nobody on earth to visit her.
When my mother's mother died, my mother continued to visit the roommate, driving more than an hour one way, and then the lady down the hall with nobody and then this other one, she kept on visiting them until they died. All those people who had nobody, all those years. All of them predeceased her, nobody to say hoo hah, aren't you the good person? She just did it. I remember it now.
I think Dickens is making a sere comment here in his story, that the things we most regret are the things we did not do. We all make choices and some of them are not good, who is perfect? Yet to this day the things I let go by are the things that seem to cause the greatest regret and pain.
I love the way Dickens showed Scrooge the happy family he might have had. But Dickens could have showed Scrooge something else, too. He could have shown Scrooge another outcome, not every marriage is happy, not every child sweet and loving, but what Dickens showed Scrooge pointed out how solitary he was and how alone, through his own choices. Both Spirits have reinforced the idea of Scrooge's choices: "that they are what they are, do not blame me."
There seems to be a huge contrast here in the book between togetherness and being alone, also.
First Marley says a man is supposed to go forth in life and if his soul does not venture out it is condemned to do so after death, now Scrooge, the solitary figure, is but a ghost himself when observing others happily engaged. It's a very powerful story and still relevant today.
One of the joys of SeniorNet is that those who come here, tho they may be physically alone in the world, are not alone in spirit, we're all here, waiting.
more…I have a new recipe and more good STUFF, it seems we're back up, so let's hear more about your thoughts on Stave 3!! At least up to the Cratchits, let's examine this first part of light and joy first!
Ginny
December 17, 2004 - 07:00 am
WHOOP!! Our illustrations are back up!! We're back in business! YAY!
We still can't upload so Harry Burnett's photo and one of the Crachit's own house will have to wait a day or so.
Stigler
December 17, 2004 - 07:55 am
December 17, 1843, "A Christmas Carol" by Charles Dickens was first published.
Mal, I really enjoyed your remembrances of Christmas' past.
Last January I retired and moved back to the small town where I grew up. By sister, brother, and parents live here too. This will be my first Christmas 'home' in almost 50 years. Christmas in a small town is wonderful!
I hope everyone's holidays are the best ever.
Judy
colkots
December 17, 2004 - 01:08 pm
Here I am in sunny California. It seems unreal, having read the posts and
the memories we all have of this sometimes festive season. My daughter
put in a 12 hour day yesterday in Simi Valley where they are shooting
the series Mystery Woman. It was unbelievable in December having sun and warmth to the point that the backgarden is warmer than the house!
I was talking to a fellow Brit on the set about pantomime, which is a parody on a fairy tale such as Jack and the Beanstalk, Cinderella, or
Aladdin to name a few. All the hero parts such as Jack, the Prince or
Aladdin are played by women(usually with gorgeous legs) The parts such as the Ugly sisters, Widow Twanky (Aladdins Mum) or Jack's Mum are played by men, usuallywell known, comedians with no attempt to look like women, the clothes, yes, but combat boots and striped stockings are de rigeur. The raw comedy, and "in jokes" do not translate well to American audiences.
Most of the questions have already been answered so my 2 pounds and ten shillings, which is the amount of my first wages in 1947 PLUS seven shillings and 6 pence "London Allowance" to cover my bus fare, is already
"as dead as a doornail"
We are playing Christmas here"by ear" as Nina works long hours until
December 23, the tree stands in the corner, awaiting its lights and
decorations. I am going to brave the sunshine (which is what Tiny Tim would have needed most and couldn't have because of pollution and ignorance of vitamins A & D)and post her Christmas Cards.
Oh and by the way Charles Shaughnessy and I both agree that America is
the BEST place on earth to live... Greetings to all Colkot
Scrawler
December 17, 2004 - 01:40 pm
"It was his own room. There was no doubt about that. But it had undergone a surprising transformation. The walls and ceiling were so hung with living green, that it looked a perfect grove; from every part of which, bright gleaming berries glistened. The crisp leaves of holly, mistletoe, and ivy reflected back the light, as if so many little mirrors had been scattered there; and such a mighty blaze went roaring up the chimney, as that dull petrifaction of a hearth had never known in Scrooge's time, or Marley's, or for many and many a winter season gone. Heaped up on the floor, to form a kind of throne, were turkeys, geese, game, poultry, brawn, great joints of meat, sucking-pigs, long wreaths of sausages, mince-pies, plum-puddings, barrels of oysters, red-hot chestnuts, cherry-cheeked apples, juicy oranges, luscious pears, immense twelfth-cakes, and seething bowls of punch, that made the chamber dim with their delicious steam. In easy state upon the couch, there sat a jolly Giant, glorious to see:, who bore a glowing torch, in shape not unlike Plenty's horn, and held it up, high up, to shed its light on Scrooge, as he came peeping round the door."
This paragraph reminded me of the Christmas's when I visited my great-grandmother on my father's side of the family in the 1940s. She lived in the Mission District of San Francisco in a white clapboard house that she'd lived in since the turn of the century. When she first moved their it was an Irish district. I remember the house full of wonderful smells from the food. It was a small house with very old Victorian furniture, but every inch of the house was covered in holly or ivy. I would sit on her lap and she would tell me stories in her Irish broque of the "old country" in Ireland and of the dashing young Frenchman she married when she was sixteen. His portrait hung above the mantelpiece complete with handle-bar mustache.
Ella Gibbons
December 17, 2004 - 04:29 pm
I loved reading them all and your memories of past Christmases! Here's a cheer (RAH RAH) for those of you who are housebound and still find enjoyment in the Books! We can all be grateful we have this communication at our fingertips!
Ginny, has anyone answered you about the lights associated with the Ghosts? There was the one that Scrooge tried to extinguish and then there is the light that "was more alarming than a dozen ghosts."
Lights remind me somewhat of angels, not ghosts - is there any similarity here between angels and ghosts?
And what does the Ghost mean when he says he has eighteen hundred brothers?
I have more questions than answers, I know, but the passages about dining on Sunday reminded me of the "blue laws" (I think they were called that) that prohibited shopping on Sundays? Am I correct in that?
I do remember that in my small hometown no one shopped on Sunday and in our home, except for eating dinner, we did little else but attend church and rest. It was unthinkable to go shopping! Not even grocery stores were open.
One more and then I shall quit - Bob Cratchit had "but fifteen 'Bob' a week himself; he pocketed on Saturdays but fifteen copies of his Christian name
I know the 'Bob' relates to money but what on earth is he pocketing 15 copies of his name for?
If a Ghost came to spirit me away to strange places, I certainly would appreciate if we could fly south to where the sun shines - the old bones on this lady are feeling the years!
Ella Gibbons
December 17, 2004 - 04:34 pm
Jeane
December 17, 2004 - 07:46 pm
In this new SeniorNet I'm having trouble reading the green print both in the header and in your posts. It's lighter, thinner and smaller. It's not at all the same as in the old SeniorNet. The quality of the type has definitely changed. Is it only temporary? The thick, rounded, large look is gone. Mal used to post in that style.
bimde
December 17, 2004 - 09:08 pm
Mal's rememberance of her Christmas Past made me remember one of my own. It was the middle of the depression. Our town had what was called an "Empty Stocking" fund for kids (like me and my two sisters) whose families were poor. My Dad had an idea---let's hang an empty stocking out on our front porch, and maybe "they" will fill it for us!! Well, he borrowed one of my mother's stockings, and we hung it. To our disappointment, it remained empty.
There is another memory--on the Sunday two weeks before Christmas we all would go out to the "Forest", we called it, and pick out our very own tree. That was so special.That was when there were still places where one could go to cut a tree. Yes, I think that the Ghost of Christmas Present is telling us to enjoy the here and now, even tho there are so many things we might like to go back and change.
Ann Alden
December 17, 2004 - 09:09 pm
For anyone who is interested, the new PBS program discussion is about the Mormon Tabernacle Choir and can be found here:
Christmas with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir
Malryn (Mal)
December 17, 2004 - 09:09 pm
Ginny
December 18, 2004 - 05:12 am
What great posts here, I am sorry the green is too faint, does this help, Jeane? I don't care for the look of bold, maybe I can adjust it another way, but till then this one's for you!
Here is a fabulous recipe for a little Cranberry Surprise, it doesn't make much but I guarantee you as strange as it looks it gets totally eaten, This is from an old Church Cookbook and is called
Cranberry Holiday Salad 1 pkg raw cranberries 2 cups miniature marshmallows 1/2 cup nutmeats 1 ¼ cup sugar 9 oz can Cool Whip
Wash and grind two cups of raw cranberries. Add 1 ¼ cups sugar and 2 cups miniature marshmallows. Combine and let stand overnight in refrigerator. Net morning fold in 9 ounces of Cool Whip and ½ cup nuts (I omit the nuts). Refrigerate several hours before serving.
I don't use nuts and you do want to make this exactly as it says and let it stand, what happens is it develops a marvelous kind of sauce and it's like sweet and sour cranberry, it's REALLY good, looks strange, kind of like white fluff, but tastes to knock your socks off, if you like cranberries.
Anneo thank you for the "bob", I thought I had been underpaid in the 60's at the princely sum of $3,000 per year! Hahahaa
The copper sounds vaguely romantic, I like the sound of boiled clothes! No wonder the pudding smelled of linens, quite nice!
Thank you Malryn for that exceptional recipe, pressed Biffin. I am not sure about the straw!!! I am always catching my oven on fire, I think the fire department is quite tired of the false alarms, I might need to leave the straw off but the pressing sounds strange!
Do you happen to know what "caster sugar" is?
And thank you so much for the "twice turned dress. " That's not in my annotations and I did want to know!
I remember that, now that you explain it.
Bimde, what a poignant memory of the stockings on the porch, bless your heart, but what a sweet memory of the Forest and cutting your own tree down. We still do that, here on our farm, our tree is a cedar, and it's huge, it's sort of a tradition with us tho every year I lean more towards a live tree or one of the fancy ones that are perfect in shape, but I wouldn't take anything for the tradition the kids want to keep up.
Roseda, as Malryn says you can now set your print to suit yourself, please email me if you need more help, it's very user friendly!
Scrawler what a great quote about happiness, love it! Oh and good parallel with Maria Beadnell and Dickens in real life!
Jeane, I remember that darning of socks,also!
Stigler, how wonderful to be ABLE to go "home" and have Christmas in a small town with your sister, brother and parents, I am so happy for you!
Colkot, hello there in sunny ? California!!
Thank you for that explanation of pantomime, it does not mean what I thought it did!
We are so energized to hear all of these different holiday preparations from all over the world! Hahaah So YOUR first wages were 2 pounds 10 shillings and 6 pence. It might be fun to see if we can remember what we all made in our first jobs. I started working at 16, as a waitress while in high school and can't recall, but I will never forget that $3,000 per year my first year of teaching.
Scrawler, what wonderful quote and memories of your great grandmother's home!! Makes me what to finally get this garland UP!
Ella, I agree, Three Cheers for the Books. God Bless Us, Every One! (We need to talk about THAT saying, too!)
No I don't believe anybody has mentioned the lights!
According to my annotations your questions of any similarity between angels and ghosts is a good one.
What do YOU all think the various lights represent?? Let's leave that open for discussion as we come to the Third Ghost who is without light and see if we can figure out what it might be.
One very interesting fact you'll note is there is NO Christmas tree in the sumptuous descriptions of the decorations, as the Christmas tree was a German tradition and not an English one at the time!
On your "eighteen hundred brothers," my notes say "Eighteen hundred and forty-two, to be exact." I take it that means the year in which the book was written and in which Scrooge first encounters the Ghost, he's had 1842 previous brothers of Christmas Present.
Oh GOOD point on the Blue Laws, don't you all have them where you live? Thank you also Malryn for more on them. You DO have so many wonderful questions, you ask "I know the 'Bob' relates to money but what on earth is he pocketing 15 copies of his name for?" As Anneo has described, "bob" is another word for shilling, so if he pockets 15 copies of "bob" or his name "Bob," (pun there?) he's got 15 shillings. Hahaa Cute pun.
Apparently the idea of Sunday closings was something Dickens really felt strongly about. Here's a bit from the notes in my book:
On behalf of pious individuals who believed that the Sabbath should remain holy, Sir Andrea Agnew introduced in the House of Commons a Sunday observance bill several times between 1832 and 1837, designed not only to close the bakeries, but also to limit other 'Innocent enjoyments" of the poor, while not affecting the amusements of the rich.
Dickens lobbied vigorously against this and wrote pamphlets against it. So the Ghost of Christmas Present also "attacks such falsely pious people."
Interesting huh? And it appears Anneo was right on the bakeries, my notes say
As poor houses at that time…were very poorly equipped for coking, and all the cookery had to be done over an open fire…it was an excellent custom then to send large dishes to the bakers' where they were cooked in the professional oven for a small charge. As it was illegal for bakers to bake on Sunday and Christmas Day they instead opened their shops to the poor, who then had at least one hot meal a week>
Puts kind of a different slant on the Cratchits, doesn't it?
As we are still not able to upload, I have a lovely John Leech illustration from the time, called Bringing Home the Christmas Dinner, I hope to put in here, showing people leaving the bakers looking very happy indeed. That's not such a strange custom, many places around here, like S&S Cafeteria, will cook to your order an entire dinner (but the price is not small). I have been there on pick up days and it's incredible, many people order the entire thing, sort of a Carry Out Catered Christmas!
Ann, thank you for that lovely invitation to view some holiday music with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir in our PBS Program Club, that's just right for a nice calm evening!
Let's leave the Cratchits now and venture out with the Ghost of Christmas Present to a new area. As we leave the lingering LIGHT of the Cratchits is beautifully written, I think?
They were not a handsome family; there were not well dressed; their shoes were far from being water=proof; their clothes were scanty and Peter might have known, and very likely did, the inside of a pawnbrokers. But they were happy, grateful, pleased with one another, and contented with the time; and when they faded, and looked happier yet in the bright sprinklings of the spirit's torch at parting, Scrooge had his eye upon them, and especially on Tiny Tim, until the last.
Here are a few questions for our last part of The Ghost of Christmas Present!
That is beautiful writing, and yet so many times we find in 2004, the poorest are not happy, they don't find this joy in life.
IS this just a fiction or can poverty and true joy exist hand in hand?
IS happiness where you make of it? Is this the message of the Sprit of Christmas Present or what IS its message?
Master Peter's new job opportunity, but is the wage good?
What do you know of Dickens' own situation at the Warren's Blacking factory as a child and what were the normal child working hours?
What was the Cotton Factories Regulation Act of 1819 and what did it provide?
What sort of life did Martha have working for a Milliner? What was the Infant Labor Commission's Report of 1842 and how did IT influence this story?
"…a bleak and desert moor…" "…the burial place of giants…" What area does this describe?
What is furze? What famous lighthouse is mentioned in this last section? What does "behindhand" mean? What is a "tucker?" What is "aromatic vinegar" and what was it used for? What is a "Glee?" What is a "Catch?" What is How When and Where? What is Whitechapel? What is "Yes and No?"
"This boy is Ignorance. This girl is Want." What point does the Ghost and Dickens make here? Why are they with the Ghost of Christmas Present as jolly as he is?
"The bell struck twelve." What does this signify to the Ghost of Christmas Present? Why did the first two Spirits appear when the bell tolled one but the last one appears at twelve?
A nice plum pudding singing in the copper, for your thoughts! Like Ella, I have more questions than answers, so fun, what a true delight to be reading this with you this holiday season!
Malryn (Mal)
December 18, 2004 - 07:13 am
Furse (furse) is gorse. Gorse is any of several spiny shrubs of the genus Ulex, especially U. europaeus, native to Europe and having fragrant yellow flowers and black pods. Also called furze."
Tucker is food, a lunch or supper. When I was growing up there was a lot of talk about "bib and tucker" in my house at supper time.
Glee is an a capella (unaccompanied) song for three or more people that is sung in parts something like a Round. So is a Catch, which has perhaps more complicated rhythms than a Glee.
Behindhand is an expression my New England relatives used in the old days. It means behind in time, and it can mean being in arrears.
I believe Aromatic Vinegar is old vinegar that has a lot of acetic acid in it. Apple cider vinegar in my house growing up was used not only as a condiment, but as a cleaning agent and sometimes on poultices along with liniment. It is an old New England remedy for arthritis. Drink a little every day, and your arthritis pain will go away. Did you ever have vinegar so old that it had a "Mother" on it? The Mother was the film that formed on top.
How, when and where are adverbs. Just kidding. Does it mean "wherewithal"?"
Mal
Malryn (Mal)
December 18, 2004 - 07:58 am
I never think about angels. The light of the first ghost was the ghastly light of reality, I think. The light of the second was the light of abundance and hope.
Poor people can be relatively happy as long as they have food to eat and a roof over their heads. Without them there is no hope.
My father couldn't find much work during the Depression and was seldom home. He was gone for weeks at a time sometimes.
During the seven years of my life that I lived with my mother, my brother and my two sisters, before I had polio and was given away to my childless aunt and uncle who had paying jobs, we moved all the time. We may have been kicked out by landlords because our mother couldn't pay the rent.
My mother went to the city commissary for free food and bought food when she found jobs washing floors for rich people. My younger sisters went to the free day nursery while Mama worked. My brother and I stayed with a friend of hers.
I'm sure my mother wasn't happy, but she was always cheerful. She had a lovely singing voice and sang a lot. I remember her singing when she made what she called "Poor Man's Soup" from potatoes, carrots and onions and evaporated milk she'd been given at the commissary. We loved that soup. I love it today.
At night when she put us kids to bed, she sang "Baby's Boat the Silver Moon" to us.
We played a lot of simple games, not board games or cards, games we made up, including "Bill and Mary". Bill and Mary had a nice house and a nice family. We pretended to be that family, warm, well-fed and comfortable.
I remember that there was a coloring contest in the newspaper that had a money prize. Mama dug up two stubs of crayons, and I colored the picture. I did not win the contest with only two colors.
At the end before I became sick, we lived in a two room tenement in the poor part of the small city where I grew up. We four kids slept in a double bed. Our mother slept on an old couch in the kitchen.
The only heat we had was from a kerosene stove, which Mama also used for cooking. If she didn't have money for kerosene, we had no heat and ate cold food like bread
and whatever canned food she had.
A real treat for us was the fried dough she made and tea with cloves in it. Mama loved opera and listened to it on the radio every Saturday afternoon. Fried dough, tea with cloves and listening to opera with my mother is one of the best memories I have of my childhood.
My mother died poor in such a tenement of appendicitis in 1940 when I was 12 years old. Her youngest child was 5.
Mal
Scrawler
December 18, 2004 - 11:30 am
"Scrooge reverently did so. It was clothed in one simple green robe, or mantle, bordered with white fur. This garment hung so loosely on the figure, that its capacious breast was bare, as if disdaining to be warded or concealed by any artifice. Its feet, observable beneath the ample folds of the garment, were also bare; and on its head it wore no other covering than a holly wreath, set here and there with shining icicles. Its dark brown curls were long and free; free as its genial face, its sparkling eye, its open hand, its cheery voice, its unconstrained demeanour, and its joyful air. Girded round its middle was an antique scabbard; but no sword was in it, and the ancient sheath was eaten up with rust."
There is a lot of symbolism here: What do you think the "capacious breast was bare, as if disdaining to be warded or concealed by any artifice" means? "It's feet, observable beneath the ample folds of the garment, were also bare." I think this refers to the fact that under our fancy clothes we really "bare" of the real meaning of Christmas. Also, does anyone know what: "Girded around its middle was an antique scabbard; but no sword was in it, and the ancient sheath was eaten up with rust" mean? I thought perhaps that it referred to the absence of "war" during this time period.
"The house fronts looked black enough, and the windows blacker, contrasting with the smooth white sheet of snow upon the roofs, and with the dirtier snow upon the ground; which last deposit had been ploughed up in deep furrows by the heavy wheels of carts and wagons; furrows that crossed and recrossed each other hundreds of times where the great streets branched off, and made intricate channels, hard to trace in the thick yellow mud and icy water. The sky was gloomy, and the shortest streets were choked up with a dingy mist, half thawed, half frozen, whose heavier particles descended in shower of sooty atoms, as if all the chimneys in Great Britain had, by one consent, caught fire, and were blazing away to their dear hearts content. There was nothing very cheerful in the climate or the town, and yet was there an air of cheerfulness abroad that the clearest summer air and brightest summer sun might have endeavoured to diffuse in vain."
Compared to the description of London in the ghost of Christmas past this description of Christmas present seems very gloomy indeed.
Stigler
December 18, 2004 - 02:08 pm
Mal,
What a touching story! And your mother was indeed a very courageous woman. Thanks for sharing with us.
Judy
anneofavonlea
December 18, 2004 - 07:40 pm
Before I head off to the wonderful city for 3 days of shopping, cannot wait.
Mal, we use caster sugar all the time, think you folk have a different name for it, it is white processed sugar, with a finer grain than table sugar, but not so powdery as icing sugar. We use it in cakes and meringues, because it dissoves more readily.
We went to a clearance sale yesterday, and lo and behold there were two wonderful old copper stands for sale, and I, thanks to this discussion had to have them. I got them both for $5 each, solid cast iron with chimneys and fire grates in tact. The problem is no copper tubs for inserts, so will have to scour the antique stores now, and George thinks I may not get a bargain, with the actual copper lined tubs. I have high hopes for a plum duff boiled in my new old copper, lol.
Mal, you do have some wonderful stories.
Little reluctant to tell this story, it is however true. As children we always had a pig killed for christmas, as a change from the regular beef or mutton. The problem was he was always killed and hung christmas eve, after we had been to town shopping and the men had consumed a few ales. In this state catching the required animal was never easy as they seemed to have some premonition their time was up. Our house was on top of a hill, and by the time he was finally caught, the pig was not the only one exhausted.As I head to the butcher these days, am very grateful that christmas no more requires such antics. Why these days we Aussies are almost civilised.
I watched a show, documentary, on cable last night called a Dickens Christmas, it was really wonderul.
Anneo
Ann Alden
December 19, 2004 - 06:36 am
What was the name of the show and what channel was it on?? I thought that it might be repeated.
I 'googled' for Norfolk biffins and found that they are slow,cooked apples. And that the area of Norfolk was and still is known as the apple area of England. One of the comments made about it years ago was that it was a small town planted in the apple orchards. The citizens of Norfolk are trying to revive their apple varieties and are actively searching for seeds and cuttings from anyone who might have an 'antique' apple tree in the Norfolk area. Norfolk Apple Country
Ann Alden
December 19, 2004 - 06:41 am
Also, when one 'googles' for Norfolk biffins, one gets many references to the Dept 56 Dickens Christmas Village piece,
Norfolk Biffins Bakery Charming piece. There are many more as we know.
Ginny
December 19, 2004 - 08:22 am
We're all quite saddened this morning by the unexpected death of one of our Discussion Leaders in the Books, Theron Boyd, the husband of Joan Grimes, it's quite a sad thing. And coming here at Christmas, seems doubly hard.
I was thinking this morning that Christmas is one time of the year when you DO think of those who have departed and they are there with you in spirit tho, don't you find you think of those gone more at this time of the year?
I think that's what Marley meant by his having sat next to Scrooge many a day, people are with us in spirit, even when we are not aware of it...
Malryn thank you for those definitions, what would you call
Dona Nobis Pacem? I am fuzzy on the difference in glee and catch? Don't you love the word GLEE?
"Mother" on vinegar! The things we learn in this discussion, and it wasn't so long ago that people drank vinegar to lose weight? Remember that? Fat burners??
Funny you on the How when and where, it's a game? One of the many games they played, I doubt you could play it today! It's a form of forfeits in which each player asks questions, the specific questions how do you like it when do you like it where do you like it? Can't see THAT one today, can you? hahaha
Henry Fielding Dickens, son of the author, told about another parlor game, which I think we've all played, something like Memory. I give a word like "beefsteak," and you repeat "beefsteak," and add Caligula and so on. The son relates that the game had gone on a prodigious time when it got to Dickens Senior who then repeated it correctly, and "There was a pause for a while and then, with a strange twinkle in his eye and a curious modulation in his voice, he submitted, "Warren's Blacking, 30 Strand." It was only when Forster's Life of Dickens appeared that the son even understood the importance of that phrase.
Malryn such lovely memories of your mother and childhood: thank you!
I hope you have written these down for your own daughter?
Scrawler, thank you for pointing out the symbolism in the appearance of the Ghost of Christmas Present.
I especially liked "under our fancy clothes…"
And yes we have some strong contrasts here in the last section of the chapter, and we need to look at them, I'll give it a try in the next post, you all help too!
Anneo Off to the City for a Three Day Shopping Trip!! Have a wonderful time, but don't you DARE not come back in here and explain ALL!! I have more questions on Anneo's post than I do anything else this morning. Thank you for the definition of caster sugar, never heard of it. Why is it called "caster?"
Oh Anneo has two new copper stands, and soon there will be a plum duff singing in the copper, but she needs copper tubs, must hear all, is there no flue on this thing? I must have a photo and hear what plum duff is and have a total description of how this works!! Something to look forward to after Christmas, it will be one of our 12 Days of Christmas gifts!
What a sweet and sour memory of the pig butchering. I have heard that a pig, one of the smartest of all animals, seems to know when its time is coming somehow and even one that is a pet "withdraws," I imagine that was a hard memory in the midst of joy, sort of like Christmas always is. Look to the light, I think that's the message so far.
They said on the news this morning, that we're having a Dickens Christmas ourselves in the retail trade, the poor are spending almost nothing, the rich are larding it up and they are not sure where the Middle Class is, it's interesting.
Ann I agree, I would love to see it, maybe it will come to America. How interesting on the Norfolk Apple Country, thank you for that. We have always raised chickens for eggs here and we have some rare breeds too, such as the Spotted Sussex, again from England, there is a hatchery in the US specializing in these old breeds: Murray Mc Murray if you all want to see some of the rare old breeds of chicken. Our last hen died so I guess we'll need a shipment of biddies by air. I prefer the Spotted Sussex, a giant bird, as intelligent as a dog, which is quite a pet. They were taken by the British to colonize the Empire including Africa.
Ann for heaven's sake, Norfolk Biffens Bakery Department 56, and their Dickens Christmas pieces!! THANK you for that!!!!!!! More….
Anneo,
Ginny
December 19, 2004 - 08:37 am
I have a ton of stuff for your interest this morning, starting with the angelic photo of Harry Burnett, who was the model for Tiny Tim, isn't he haunting, sweet child. As noted he died at 9 of tuberculosis, and was Fanny's son. Dickens, more than any other writer of his day, cared for children, apparently remembering his own childhood in the Blacking Factory, to the disgust of other writers, notably Henry James. You have to admire, tho, a writer who uses his fame for good. Kind of reminds you of Wally Lamb, actually.
SeniorNet has very kindly uploaded for us this photograph of the actual house of Bob Cratchit in Camden Town. This was also Dickens' home for a time, the address is 16 Bayham Street, Camden Town. His father moved him here as a boy when he was relocated by the Navy Pay Office in 1822. "The poorest part of the London suburbs then," wrote Forster, "a mean small tenement, with a wretched little back-garden abutting on a squalid court." Dickens apparently had bitter memories of the place. When Forster's book came out some of the residents complained that it wasn't THAT bad, much like Frank McCourt's neighbors have who were portrayed in Angela's Ashes. Only four rooms for all those children. The house was demolished in 1910 and has become a hospital.
Here in a John Leech wood engraving you can see "Fetching Home the Christmas Dinner," which was done in 1848. What an amazing depiction of the practice of having your Christmas dinner totally prepared by the bakeries, don't you think? I am not sure I am seeing any poor here, tho?
more….
Malryn (Mal)
December 19, 2004 - 08:51 am
GINNY, as many times as I've sung Dona Nobis Pacem ( Donut, snow beast, pot chum! ), I never really thought about what form it is, but it's a CANON.
A CANON is a composition or passage in which the same melody is repeated by one or more voices, overlapping in time in the same or a related key. A ROUND must have 2 or more voices. It is the rhythm in a CATCH that differentiates it from a GLEE.
More than 20 years ago I wrote an autobiographical novel called Fate and the Muses, which is based on the first fifty years of my life and contains stories such as the one about my mother I posted here. I haven't tried to have it published recently, but now that two other novels of mine are being published, maybe I will.
Mal
Ginny
December 19, 2004 - 08:59 am
Malryn, we are posting together! Thank you for the difference in the glee and the canon! I am glad you have it all written down, congratulations on your new publications!!
In our new section, as Scrawler points out, we have a stark change of scene. We're in "a bleak and desert moor…the burial place of giants:" This has been identified as Cornwall where Dickens had the trip of his life and never got over it, with several other companions, including his biographer Forster. "I never laughed in my life as I did on this journey...Seriously, I do believe there never was such a trip." He intended to put Cornwall in many of his new books.
The starkness of the land and the life of the miners is beautifully done in this, the dark of the pits contrasted with the light of their singing, just beautifully done.
And the lighthouse, I found to my shock, has been identified as the Eddystone Light. I know you remember the old song
My Father was the Keeper of the Eddystone Light, " (Perky little tune, huh?)
My father was the keeper of the Eddystone Light
And he slept with a mermaid one fine night
Out of this union there came three
A porpoise and a porgy and the other was me!
Yo ho ho, the wind blows free,
Oh for the life on the rolling sea!
I knew about the Eddystone Lighthouse but had never seen it. This site
Eddystone Lighthouse site gives some very dramatic photos of it and I think Dickens could have picked no better lighthouse to show total isolation when the Ghost of Christmas Present flew him over the waters to this very very symbolic structure!
Here's how I see it:
The lighthouse, like Scrooge, is totally isolated, I have never seen one so out in the water like that. Yet it illuminates with its LIGHT the darkness, even so, and the lighthouse keepers
…had made a fire that through the loophole in the thick stone wall shed out a ray of brightness on the awful sea.
Joining their horny hand s over the rough table at which they sat, they wished each other Merry Christmas in their own can of grog; and one of them, the elder, too, with his face all damaged and scarred with hard weather….struck up a sturdy song. I really think you can't get better than that, the contrasts in light and dark, the symbolism of aloneness and age, yet the possibility of light, it's very powerful, ESPECIALLY when you can visualize what Dickens was talking about.
Dickens was quite taken with the Eddystone Light, he actually planned to set a book around it and acted in a play about it himself by Wilkie Collins called
The Lighthouse He wrote Forster he had the notion to open his next book "in the lantern of a lighthouse," but his next book Martin Chuzzlewit, opened in a Wiltshire village.
My notes also say of the silver and gold fish thing, that these were members of the carp family sold on the streets in bowls in London at this time. I have seen some engravings with them in it. According to
London Labor and London Poor there were at least 70 sellers of these gold and silver fish in London at the time.
I declare this annotated book thing is going to spoil me for any other reading! The best is having YOU all and your wonderful submissions to add to it, a perfect blend!
If you look (the book does not make this point but it's really striking, to me, do YOU agree?) at all the mentions of LIGHT, you, I think, will see a pattern of strong symbolism, it's quite striking.
So much to talk about in this little section, a plum duff singing in the copper for your thoughts today!
Scrawler
December 19, 2004 - 11:29 am
"There were ruddy, brown-faced, broad-girthed Spanish Friars, and wink from their shelves in wanton slyness at the girls as they went by, and glanced demurely at the hung-up mistletoe."
Is Dickens perhaps making a sly remark about organized religions, especially the Catholic religion?
"The very gold and silver fish, set forth among these choice fruits in a bowl, though members of a dull and stagnant-blooded race, appeared to know that there was something going on; and, to a fish, went gasping round and round heir little world in slow and passionless excitement."
Does anyone know what the above paragraph is referring to?
"The Grocers'! oh the Grocers'! Nearly closed, with perhaps two shutters down, or one; but through those gaps such glimpses. It was not alone that the scales descending on the counter made a merry sound, or that the twine and roller parted company so briskly, or that the canisters were rattled up and down like juggling tricks, or even that the blended scents of tea and coffee were so grateful to the nose, or even that the raisins were so plentiful and rare, the almonds so extremely white, the sticks of cinnamon so long and straight, the other spices so delicious, the candied fruits so caked and spotted with molten sugar as to make the coldest lookers- on feel faint and subsequently bilious. Nor was it that the figs were moist and pulpy, or that the French plums blushed in modest tartness from their highly-decorated boxes, or that everything was as good to eat and in its Christmas dress; but the customers were all so hurried and so eager in the hopeful promise of the day, that they tumbled up against each other at the door, clashing their wicker baskets wildly, and left their purchases upon the counter, and came running back to fetch them, and committed hundreds of like mistakes, in the best humour possible; while the Grocer and his people were so frank and fresh that the polished hearts which which they fastened their aprons behind might have been their own, worn outside for general inspection, and for Christmas dress to peck at if they chose."
I wonder what Dickens would have thought of our modern day "Malls"? With everything pre-packaged these days you can't really savor the smells and tastes of food as you walk through a store. Up here in Portland Oregon we have a store called "Made-In Oregon" and every time I walk into that store I can savor the smells and tastes of fruits and other things grown in Oregon. There's always samples of home-grown cookies, fruits and other delicacies. Most of what they sell are clothes and jewelry, but they always seem to have a tasty treat here and there.
Ann Alden
December 19, 2004 - 01:14 pm
There's an entire alley(very old location) enclosed like a mall but having the most colorful and scented shops with foods from all over the world plus many locally made crafts, like, leather belts, purses. The smell of leather permeates the store where it is sold. There a shop handling things like Crabtree&Evelyn products and their scents fill the shop. There's a wonderful butcher shop named Alden and Sons. Naturally, I took a picture but that was before digital, too bad. Oh, well.
Ginny
December 20, 2004 - 07:15 am
Scrawler, I love your quoting of Dickens beautiful words, oh good perspective, what WOULD he have thought of our malls!
Ann, Oxford! I only stayed two weeks there to take a course at Oxford (Christ Church) do you think I SAW that alley you're talking about? Of course not! Why, one wonders, does one travel! Haahhaa
Having said THAT, however, I must say Pike's…what's it called? Market Place in Seattle has a lot of produce and fish displayed but woe on you if you touch one of the pieces of fruit, they are DISPLAYED , noli tangere! Hahahaa I dunno about exposed fruit and meat, in Dickens' day, especially, but I do know he would have described our malls today in such a way they'd need no TV ads.
Personally our huge department stores nearly kill me with smells, I have to almost put on a gas mask to get thru the perfume areas, jeepers. And for some reason the cosmetics are the FIRST door you enter, usually unless it's a multi level mall.
Cornwall, the land of the miners represented is a fabulous place, have any of you been there? We stayed a week once in a house literally hanging on a cliff overlooking the sea, it was out of this world, the bleakness, the rocky crags, the pounding surf and the mines. I have not been in a Cornish mine, have you? But have been down The Big Pit The Big Pit -
National Mining Museum of Wales, Blaenafon; which was closed in 1980. It had just closed when we were there, and one of the ponies was still alive that they used in the shafts. You could take and I see you still can, a tour, it's become the National Mining Museum. At the time they were selling the actual miner's lamps, I bought one, it had the miner's number o it. Now they sell reproductions of them, it's quite an experience to go down in one of them.
Did you notice that Dickens uses the word "bowels" again, this time for bowels of the earth? He's very conscious, it seems of repetition as you can see in the Ghost of Christmas Present repeating his words, about "decrease the surplus population" and "are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?"
"Full five and sixpence weekly…" My notes say Master Peter's opportunity was a poor one. Dickens recalled six or seven shillings a week at his horrid job at Warren's Blacking in 1824; he started at 10 shillings and a sixpence when apprenticed to the firm of Ellis and Blakemore, solicitors, in 1827. The remark about Peter and the pawnbroker apparently refers to the practice then of the families selling or pawning the belongings, and Dickens himself, as they would send the children to do this work, was well known at the pawnbrokers.
Martha's millinery job was the absolute pits, "the hardest worked, worst paid and too often, the worst used class of the community." Apparently "an unhealthy occupation." Martha would only be able to see her family once every four months.
The expression "loved her love to admiration with all the letters of the alphabet" apparently refers to
The old parlor game "I love my love with an A," once popular in both Great Britain and the United States; it was also used by mothers to teach children the alphabet. Each player in turn must complete a seies of sentences using the next letter.
Lewis Carroll also plays with this game in Chapter 7 of Through the Looking Glass, tho Alice's players must commence with the letter H as they aspirate their A's.
And "vain man in his little authority…" is taken from Measure For Measure:
But man, proud man,
Dressed in a little brief authority,
Most ignorant of what he's most assured,
His glassy essence, like an angry ape
Plays such fantastic tricks before high
heaven
As makes the angels weep…
Now consider a minute how learned I would appear if I did not reveal the source of ALL of this knowledge as The Annotated A Christmas Carol by Michael Patrick Hearn!!! Hahahaha
What strikes YOUR fancy about Stave 3 this morning as we begin to prepare to leave it? Full five and sixpence weekly for your thoughts!!
colkots
December 20, 2004 - 01:49 pm
And to think that I used to live like that in London..!
And here I am in sunny California just going shopping for the ingredients
for the Polish wigilia Christmas eve celebration. There will be some elements,but mostly fresh organic foods, Clear beet soup with
pasties,fish in aspic,w horseradish,hunter's stew, herring with onion
and oil, poppyseed cake,fruit compote and other goodies. Other people will bring
foods of their choice and we will break the OPLATEK, the Christmas wafer
and wish everyone Season's greetings. Traditionally one empty place is set for anyone who arrives.(it was for the holy family) No plum pudding
singing in the copper..I had an English dinner last week..Colkot
Ann Alden
December 20, 2004 - 04:31 pm
Seems they were very well thought of, probably the sharpest at that time in history. And, of course, there's a Whitechapel street in London where these needles were made and sold.
Colkot,
Your Christmas Polish wigilia sounds good. In fact, your whole dinner makes my mouth water. Very different!
Scrawler
December 20, 2004 - 07:22 pm
"Spirit," said Scrooge, after a moment's thought, "I wonder you of the beings in the many worlds about us, should desire to cramp these people's opportunities of innocent enjoyment."
"I!" cried the Spirit.
"You would deprive them of their means of dining every seventh day, often the only day on which they can be said to dine at all," said Scrooge. "Wouldn't you?"
"I!" cried the Spirit.
"You seek to close these places on the Seventh Day," said Scrooge. "And it comes to the same thing."
"I seek!" exclaimed the Spirit.
"Forgive me if I am wrong. It has been done in your name, or at least in that of your family," said Scrooge.
"There are some upon this earth of yours," returned the Spirit, "who lay claim to know us, and who do their deeds of passion, pride, ill-will, hatred, envy, bigotry, and selfishness in our name, who are as strange of us and all our kith and kin, as if they had never lived. Remember that, and charge their doings on themselves, not us."
Dickens took chances when he dealt with social issues, but as we can see by the above paragraph he was not shy of working with ideas. Throughout his work there is a constant returning to themes of his own childhood: of debtor's prisons and the internal dealings of family especially the poor. Christmas was a happy time for Dickens and although he gives us little "thoughts" to think about he still manages to paint a pleasant picture.
Jeane
December 20, 2004 - 07:50 pm
Wow! Your Christmas foods sound so interesting. What are pasties, hunter's stew and fruit compote?
Poppyseed cake: I had a stepmom from Latvia who made a poppyseed bread. She would make a sweet tasting dough, role it out into about a rectangular shape, then cover the whole thing with a thick layer of poppyseeds. She would role the the dough back up so that the poppyseeds and dough looked like a spiral when sliced vertically. Then she baked it and I assume we cut slices to eat. It was absolutely devine. I looked in the Russian bakeries in San Francisco a couple of times for something similar, but never found anything. Once I did find a poppyseed pastry in one of the bakeries. But the flavor and quality came no where near the scrumptious flavor of Emily's. A childhood food memory that can never be duplicated. Sigh!
Emily also boiled beef tongue and I fell in love. Just recently I boiled one for myself. My favorite burrito place in SF is LaCumbre mainly because they have beef tongue available as a choice.
Barbara St. Aubrey
December 20, 2004 - 10:43 pm
Good grief it is freezing here in NC - at my daughter's for Christmas and it is very cold - I have my coat on in the house all day and still cannot get my legs warm since all my pants/slax are cotton - probably need to purchase a winter lycra after ski pants or something from an outdoor store - this is ridiculous as I try to function all wrapped in blankets.
Just a short sentence in the story that brought back memories It was not alone that the scales descending on the
counter made a merry sound, or that the twine and roller
parted company so briskly, - remember the grocery when the scales had a series of weights nearby that would be used to counter the weight of your purchase and therefore, measure the amount of what ever the product - they were made of some sort of metal that did twing when they hit against each other --
In addition there were no shopping sacks or bags - everything was wrapped into a bundle with brown paper and twine except the baker and the butcher used white paper and twine and fish was wrapped in cones made of newspaper - Even shopping in town at the A&P everything was wrapped in bundles - I even remember dry goods stores had little round wooden handles that were like tubes of wood strung on a piece of metal twisted at the ends that were twisted onto the twine around the wrapped package to allow you to carry it more easily.
My thoughts on the children of man - Want and Ignorance - I would say these are still the basis of Doom - except I would change 'Want' to 'Fear' -
I think poverty brings with it more fear and when we speak of the happy poor or wanting poor it reminds me that we can all be poor - poor in spirit - money does not change a consciousness - example Scrooge himself, who had money but was poor in spirit and therefore, unable to create happiness for himself or others. Than of course there is the whole issue of not being able to create happiness or joy for others unless you can create happiness and joy for yourself.
And so to eliminate 'Want' to me is not going to bring about happiness or civil behavior or any of the many virtues we associate with the hope that Christmas represents - to my mind regardless of income or physical wealth it is 'fear' that keeps folks from being counted among the happy or joy filled.
A young child is lonely because of the fear of being rejected and imagining the possibility of permenant isolation - Scrooge was filled with fear over committing to a young women unless he could match his idea of success which again, is societies concept of what will keep life's risks to a minimum so we experience and a man is supposed to offer a women less 'fear of the unknown'.
I see 'fear' as the opposite of 'hope and faith' - if hope is defined as embracing or looking forward to the unknown rather than to a goal or dream, which is looking forward to memory since real hope does not include a defined picture of what will or will not happen. To have faith in the unknown is to have faith in hope and therefore, to me that is what Christmas is symbolizing - hope as in a new born - the light in the dark - and the faith or belief that we will meet hope with love.
And so again I think the two children of man that lead to Doom for society as much as Doom to an individual, is named 'Ignorance and Fear'.
Scrawler
December 21, 2004 - 11:48 am
"As good as gold," said Bob, "and better. Somehow he gets thoughtful sitting by himself so much, and thinks the strangest things you ever heard. He told me coming home, that he hoped the people saw him in the church, because he was a cripple, and it might be pleasant to them to remember upon Christmas Day, who made lame beggers walk, and blind men see."
"Spirit," said Scrooge, with an interest he had never felt before, "tell me if Tiny Tim will live."
"I see a vacant seat," replied the Ghost, "in the poor chimney-corner, and a crutch without an owner, carefully preserved. If these shadows remain unaltered by the Future, the child will die."
"Man," said the Ghost, "if man you be in heart, not adamant, forbear that wicked can't until you have discovered What the surplus is, and Where it is. Will you decide what men shall live, what men shall die? It may be, that in the sight of Heaven, you are more worthless and less fit to live than millions like this poor man's child. Oh God! To hear the Insect on the leaf pronouncing on the too much life among his hungry brothers in the dust."
"From the foldings of its robe, it brought two children; wretched, abject, frightful, hideous miserable. They knelt down at its feet, and clung upon the outside of its garment.
"Oh, Man, look! Look, look, down here! exclaimed the Ghost.
"They were a boy and girl. Yellow, meagre, ragged, scowling, wolfish; but prostrae, too, in their humility. Where graceful youth should have filled their features out, and touched them with its freshest tints, a stale and shrivelled hand, like that of age, had pinched, and twisted them, and pulled them into shreds. Where angels might have sat enthroned, devils lurked, and glared out menacing. No change, no degradation, no perversion of humanity, in any grade, through all the mysteries of wonderful creation, has monsters half so horrible and dread."
"They are Man's," said the Spirit, looking down upon them. "And they cling to me, appealing from their fathers. The boy is Ignorance. The girl is Want. Beware them both, and all of their degree, but most of all beware this boy, for on his brow I see written which is Doom, unless the writing be erased. Deny it!" cried the Spirit, stretching out its hand towards the city. "Slander those who tell it ye. Admit it for your factious purposes, and make it worse. And abide the end."
Not only do these paragraphs remind us of what the real meaning of Christmas should be among all the fancy wrapped packages, but the last paragraph to me is the main theme of this story. Strange is it not that even now that after 161 years since the first publication of "A Christmas Carol" that the poor still exist and for the very reasons Dickens mentioned: Ingnorance and Want or as Barbara suggests Fear! They are talking here in Portland, Oregon about building a nice new building to house all the unfortunates (the Media's words not mine). If only they could find jobs for them. What's the saying: "Give a man food and you feed him for a day, but teach him to fish and hunt and you provide for him for the rest of his life." It is only our ignorance and fear of those less fortunate than we that makes us look at them differently than we would ourselves. "Except for the grace of God go I."
May you have a wonderful Winter Solstice. And may you live in peace and harmony throughout the day and into the coming new year.
Malryn (Mal)
December 21, 2004 - 02:05 pm
I think Dickens meant exactly what he said when he used the word, "want". Want means:
To be in need of; require:
To have need:
To be destitute or needy.
When people turn their backs on people in need, the ones in want either give up and die or do anything to survive, like lie, steal, sell drugs, prostitute themselves.
Want doesn't breed fear in destitute people. Their want breeds fear in us,
Want breeds things like immorality. When life itself cannot be valued because of want, there are no values, so anything goes -- just for the sake of survival.
The Ghost of Christmas Present is teaching Scrooge an important lesson here, one that we all should learn.
Mal
Barbara St. Aubrey
December 21, 2004 - 04:23 pm
I guess I think of hermits and monks who live in caves or holy men in India who have nothing - they even beg for their food - there are poor in various areas of this nation who still live off the land - none of them are "needy" and are at peace with themselves where as the hollowed eyed child of want looks more to me like the child who is from a family who feels "needy" and we know that to feel needy means you do not feel trust or faith in your circumstance that you will be able to maintain yourself/your life - and we have all learned the opposite feeling to trust and faith is fear since there are two basic feelings among mankind - fear and love.
I am sure we all have our way of looking at the poor and many of us have experienced being poor especially since most of us were depression babies before social security and other government assistance programs - what I came away from that with as long as a family believed like, Little Orphan Annie, as she sang Tomorrow - a Daddy Warbucks or not they seldom were Doomed nor did the children, who are our ages now, grow up to be a blight on society. But when you became fearful of the future, or even the present so that for instances, a gun was required for more than hunting, the likelihood of Doom - jail time - criminal behavior in order to survive - breeding rather than parenting - seems far more likely.
This may only be semantics since I am defining the difference based on today's understanding of poor versus the mid nineteenth century wording. We know that providing basic shelter and food plus a free education is not enough to change the dynamic of most of the poor. There must be guidance, support, a belief in themselves that there is a better life and they can attain the better life, that discrimination would not keep them from attaining a well paying job etc. etc. In other words their spirit must not be poor regardless how much their physical world is needy.
Jeane
December 21, 2004 - 07:58 pm
I've read and heard that faith is the opposite of fear. I recently came across the most breathtakingly simple contrasting of faith and fear.
Ernest Holmes, the founder of Science of Mind, said that Fear is a belief that something awful might happen and Faith is the belief that something good might happen. I want to learn to take action, not assume that the worse is going to happen and to be open to whatever happens.
bimde
December 21, 2004 - 08:57 pm
Barbara, your post said a lot about the difference between being poor when we were growing up in the depression years. We were poor, but so were most of the people we knew. We, I guess, didn't realize just what poverty meant, for we were happy.I don't remember people going around with guns to get what they needed. We made do with what we had, little as it was. It seems so different today. There are so many needy in this Country of plenty. It shouldn't be that way. Those who have much seem, like Scrooge, to keep it,forgetting about charity to others who have nothing. Yes, I think needs today do bring on fear, and hopelessness.It seems there is no hope for so many of them. Jobs are non-exixtent, families split-up,no back-up, or safety-net, if you will. We had our Mom and Dad, sisters and other members of the family to lean on if it came to that. Ginny asked if happiness is what you make of it. Well, in some cases, that is so. In others, it seems there is no happiness, only the desperate fear of what tomorrow will bring. Scrooge is teaching us a lesson we should take to heart--have a care about your fellow-man. That is Christmas,present and future.
Ginny
December 22, 2004 - 08:25 am
What wonderful points! Today we move, somewhat reluctantly, on my part, (and Srooge's), to Stave Four: the Third of the Three Spirits.
What a contrast, huh?
If the first spirit represented the angels and the second Father Christmas, this one must represent Death, do you think?
Gone is the light, all is dark. Gone is the conversation, only a pointing finger from a slient hooded cloaked figure.
I have to say this reminds me of Lent, the darkness and the lack of hope.
There used to be an old illustration that used to scare me half to death as a child, it was Death Personified, with his sickle, hooded, standing near the bedside of an ill person, used to just terrify me, for some reason. Here's another hooded figure, and Scrooge tries to reason with it. Always darkest before the dawn? So much to ask about here. The Rag and Bone men, fascinating . The trembling finger, what did you make of that? Let's enter the frightening world of the Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come and mark the change in Scrooge, how he strains to make the most of every minute and to change what is, or is it? inevitable?
Let's enter a new part of town where nobody is singing and there is no joy or is there? If there IS joy, what is the nature of it? What is meant by the "mountains of unseemly rags, masses of corrupted fat, and sepulchers of bones?" What else is corrupted in Stave 4?
Why do you think this scene of the selling of Scrooge's effects is put in this book? Do you think there is any verisimilitude in it? What is a charwoman, and where does the light come from in this chapter as opposed to the last two?
Ginny
December 22, 2004 - 09:12 am
I've asked Pat if she will have time to put up the preceding questions for the headings we've done to date, sorry I omitted that. That way you can always refer back, if you get behind. How lovely it is to be able to really discuss this and all of its ramifications at Christmas, it's really done a lot for mine.
My goodness Colkot, your own description of the feast sounds positively fabulous, and exotic, thank you for sharing that with us!
Ann thank you for that information on Whitechapel, my book also says we know it in another fashion, as well. Apparently it was a poor congested parish between Aldgate and Mile End Road, famous for its thieves, fences and whores. It was the scene of the famous Whitechapel murders, committed by Jack the Ripper.
Good point, Scrawler, about Dickens and social work and the labor laws. The Cotton Factories Regulation Act restricted the minimum working age to 9 years and the hours to 12 per day.. Dickens apparently felt that so went the child, so goes the man, saying in his last book, A Christmas book, The Haunted Man,
He reitereated his theme of the Boy Ignorance and Girl Want in a child with no name…" a baby savage, a young monster, a child who had never been a child, a creature who might live to take the outward form of man, but who, within, would live and perish a mere beast."
Pretty strong words for the care of children.
Jeane, poppyseed cake! The only thing I have known of that was Miss Marple, when she took tea at Brown's in London inquiring if it were REAL poppyseed cake! No wonder, from your own description!
Barbara, so glad you made it to NC, isn't it cold? I'm personally hoping for a White Christmas. We went to my son's and DIL's for dinner and then a candlelight service Sunday night in Tryon and I really thought we'd be snowed out, luckily not!
Oh lovely memories on the scales, thank you. Interesting point on FEAR you bring up, the new Lemony Snicket movie is big on fear, I loved it, we must read those books!
My own take on Want was the Biblical application that we'd always have it with us, but I agree Fear is a biggie too. Which comes first, do you think? Ignorance, Fear or Want?
Scrawler, what a wonderful point on the theme of the book, thank you! And the same holidays wishes to all of you!
Good point Malryn on the nature of Want, it does take so many forms.
What an interesting point, Barbara, on Little Orphan Annie singing, I can't help but compare that to Scrooge, he's much the more hopeful of the two figures at the end, I especially noticed this, "he resolved to treasure up every word he heard, and everything he saw…" I liked that. Scrooge has changed, yet he's still fearful. This is some little story, isn't it? It's got sin, (or so the author termed it) redemption, fear, want, ignorance, love, kindness, patience, it's got it all? What does it lack?
Good point Jeane on the difference in Faith and Fear, which do you think Scrooge has now?
What do you all think was the turning point? He's definitely turning. What in the past of this story made THE difference, do you think?
Bimde, good points on the poor of today, is it possible, do you think, to make happiness out of nothing?
Lovely point on "have a care!"
Apparently the rag and bottle shops were commonly used by the poor. The poor often visited these shops at holiday time to sell all sorts of odd items to help pay for their roast beef and plum-pudding. Albert Smith described how men, women, and children turned in bundles of "useless iron and fusty rags, choking and stenchy, and blurred phials with unwholesome breath , and lumps of dripping of an unctuous and oily nature."
So it seems that these rag and bone shops (what did they use the rags and the bones for??) served a purpose to the poor. I remember the Rag and Bone men, myself, coming thru the streets of Philadelphia. I have never been clear on what the bones and rags were used for. I know the fat was used in soap? Kirk Douglas wrote about his own father, a Rag and Bone man.
Don't you love Scrooge's questions to the Ghost? And the answers? Didn't that remind you of the story The Monkey's Paw?
What are YOUR thoughts on this strange, dark and unsettling chapter?
Scrawler
December 22, 2004 - 11:18 am
If you need me, I'll be under the covers for this chapter.
"The Phantom slowly, gravely, silently approached. When it came, Scrooge bent down upon his knee; for in the very air through which this Spirit moved it seemed to scatter gloom and mystery.
It was shrouded in a deep black garment, which concealed its head, its face, its form, and left nothing of it visible save one outstretched hand. But for this it would have been difficult to detach its figure from the night, and separate it from the darkness by which it was surrounded.
He felt that it was tall and stately when it came beside him, and its mysterious presence filled him with a solemn dread. He knew no more, for the Spirit neither spoke nor moved."
Ever since I saw the 1950s black and white movie of "A Christmas Carol" this portion of the story has always terrified me. And yet is this phantom really "death"? And if so, why should we fear death? After all when one dies we are set free from the sorrows and pain of this world.
I don't think of this "phantom" as death as much as I think of "it" as an accumulation of our fears of the future. When Scrooge asked:"I am in the presence of the Ghost of Christmas Yet To Come" the spirit didn't answer that he was "Death" but pointed downward with its hand.
But why should we fear the future? Will the future be any different than the past or even the present. What is it about the future that we all seem to fear in one degree or the other. Perhaps it is the element of the "unknown" that we fear. Is it that no matter how much we plan for our future there is always that element of the unknown. Perhaps what we should be doing is not fearing the future, but meeting it head-on. Certainly with all the wisdom we have obtained throughout our lives we should be able to come up with something bright and cheerful to look forward to.
Phyll
December 22, 2004 - 12:17 pm
travelled the countryside collecting scrap materials, e.g. old iron, rags, bones, rabbit skins, in fact any reusable item. It is interesting to note that payment for these items was usually in the form of a small gold fish!
This was a time when most glues were made from bones or rabbit skins. Thus the trolley was equipped with bins for the bones and if the rags were wet they were first dried by being hung across the front mounted drying racks before being carried inside the vehicle."
also,
"Rag and bone men used to be called "totters." They used a handcart to collect clothing, books and other discarded items that might be useful. They passed out balloons and even goldfish to the children who came out to them. A few times a year they would come out with the horse and cart to collect larger items, such as old bedsteads."
--from Equisearch.com
colkots
December 22, 2004 - 01:31 pm
A charwoman is what we would call a cleaning lady here.
A very honorable profession.A famous one was "Mrs Mopp" from the
ITMA show, whose catch phrase was "Can I do yer now sir?"
Does anyone remember the delightful book " Mrs"Arris went to Paris?"
That was the story of a charlady who saved up her money, went to Paris
to purchase a designer gown and what happened to her.Angela Lansbury
played her in the TV version..Omar Sharif was also in that.
Quite often,if I went to work early in London, I would see those
charwomen coming back from their office cleaning jobs, complete with heads in turbans covering the curlers. These ladies are the salt of the
earth as are Casey & my Polish ladies and my daughter's Hispanic lady.
I remember rag and bone men, and the horse and carts. Until as late as 1958 our milkman delivered with a horse and cart. The coal came the same
way with these huge horses, the coal was very heavy and the coalman was always black from his product, hauling the sacks on his back to the coalbins.(I'm not fond of open fires to this day
P.S. I just made a poppyseed cake..the recipe is inside the Solo poppyseed filling can.
I cut the sugar by 1/2 cup..it's a substitute for the "makowiec" poppy seed filled coffee cake traditional at Christmas.. we like this better.
Colkot
Barbara St. Aubrey
December 22, 2004 - 10:33 pm
Why do you think this scene of the selling of Scrooge's effects is put in this book? Do you think there is any verisimilitude in it? I know this is a serious question but all I could think of was upon my return after the holidays - to clear out my house of anything that is not needed and useful and then give away whatever is no longer fills my life with joy, so that my house is attractive and clean without a lot of useless belongings that upon my death others would be tossing in the trash. Almost like when our mothers told us to be sure to only go out in clean underware in case there you are in an accident.
I've shown some houses where the owner either died or after leaving the hospital went directly to a hospice or home for the aged - some or fresh and organized and some look like the dreary back rooms of a second hand store with a few antiques thrown in.
I look now at all the "things" that seemed so important to own and realize they are only important for such a few years when life changes -
As to this stave of Scrooge - it is all very dark like the cloying of thick night time fog. I am still at a loss as to what the bit about the businessmen's exchange was all about - anyone any ideas...?
Scrawler
December 23, 2004 - 11:47 am
I agree with you Barbara, its a lot easier for you to give things away with the thought that someone else might be able to use them; than to think that others will just toss them in the trash after you are gone.
"They scarcely seemed to enter the city; for the city rather seemed to spring up about them, and encompass them of its own act. But there they were, in the heart of it; on Change, amongst the merchants; who hurried up and down, and chinked the money in their pockets, and conversed in groups, and looked at their watches, and trifled thoughtfully with their great gold seals; and so forth, as Scrooge had seen them often."
This scene reminds me of when I went back to San Jose, California a few years ago. When my parents first moved back in the 60s to San Jose from San Francisco everything in the downtown area was fresh, clean and new. But in 2000 when I went back they were tearing everything in the downtown area down to make room for renovation projects. As I rode the light rail downtown I could see all of my "haunts" that I'd gone to in my teenage days torn down, boarded up, and abandoned. It was a little sad to see it.
"They left the busy scene, and went into an obscure part of town, where Scrooge had never penetrated before, although he recognized its situation, and its bad repute. The ways were foul and narrow; the shops and houses wretched; the people half-naked, drunken, slipshod, ugly. Alleys and archways, like so many cesspools, disgorged their offenses of smell, and dirt, and life, upon the straggling streets; and the whole quarter reeked with crime, with filth, and misery."
Once again this scene reminds me of when I used go to high school in San Francisco and I had to walk through similar streets because cable cars didn't run in these neighborhoods. The elected officials since the 50s have tried to clean up some of these neighborhoods, but unfortunately in doing so they put the homes and shops out of the reach of those who needed them the most and many of these places became the homes and shops for some of the "up-beat" folks.
Jeane
December 23, 2004 - 12:06 pm
I just finished reading Stave 4 about the ghost of Christmas future. I really like the words "but that the hand was open, generous and true; the heart brave, warm and tender."
I opened and closed my hand and thought about what the open hand is symbolic of. For me it symbolizes openness, reaching out, welcoming, connecting, trusting.
As I was opening and closing my hand, I thought of the movie "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" where they use musical notes and hand signals to communicate with the aliens. da da da da.
Also in San Francisco we have an organization called Project Open Hand which was started in the 80s to help feed people with AIDS which grew and is still going strong and has expanded to feed homebound seniors and others.
The closed fist is symbolic of separation, anger, hatred, violence.
I have difficulty sometimes understanding Dickens writing style and vocabulary, so at first I was confused about who the child was that Bob Cratchit goes upstairs to visit. I assume I'm correct in guessing that Tiny Tim had just died and his body was still in his bed.
I read a sentence I don't understand 2 or 3 times, and if I still don't understand, I give up and move on.
I never could enjoy and appreciate literature written in the 19th century and earlier because I couldn't follow the long complicated sentences and hadn't built up the necessary vocabulary. I had to read "The American" by Henry James in college and write a paper on it. I muddled through it, and don't remember my grade. It's one reason why I can't get into Jane Austen. Gwenyth Paltrow's "Emma" was on TV recently and I couldn't follow and understand much of what is being said.
I've never been able to enjoy Shakespeare either for the same reason. So much symbolism. And I had to take the class a second time to make up an incomplete. Altho the prof was great; he opened up much of the symbolism in many of the plays and I wrote all over that textbook.
colkots
December 23, 2004 - 06:36 pm
Yes, it is interesting and often with a sense of sadness that we re-visit
places we knew as younger folk. I have been back to the neighborhood in London where I grew up. The actual building where our cold water flat
existed together with the small shops underneath has been razed and a very unpleasant looking gas station has been erected. It was on the
main street which eventually leads to the airport.Opposite to that were
some gracious town houses plus Cressy House,which was owned by an eccentric man who gave private Saturday concerts, had a beautuful garden,
sculpted and kept bees. It is now a block of flats, only the name remains. This all sounds wonderful,but the mean streets and poverty
were in the side streets off the main street. Pubs on every corner, the
dirt and sounds of drunks being turned out at closing time, filthy children, swearing, odors of unwashed bodies and privies. I remember it all.
Will keep in touch when I return to Chicago Seasons greetings to all. Colkot
Jeane
December 23, 2004 - 08:21 pm
The little house I lived in with my stepgran on Euclid St.between Santa Monica Blvd. and Wilshire Blvd. in Santa Monica in the middle 40s and had several nice Christmases in as an older child also was torn down and replaced by apartment buildings. You should have seen the beautiful brick fireplace she had built in the livingroom, the floor to ceiling bookshelves, the big covered front porch, the large square kitchen with the mottled green counters and the southern sun streaming in as she baked lemon cakes, the enclosed back porch with the large deep sinks, the stars on the ceiling of our bedroom with the builtin beds that had drawers in them for our toys, stepgrandad's garage where he made plastic jewelry and boxes and metal braided jewelry and his tiny wood paneled bedroom where we sat in his big chair on Christmas afternoon watching the feature length Walt Disney animated movies on TV like "Bambi" "Snow White" and "Cinderalla." One Christmas she cooked a goose and let us sip some wine. My stepgran went all out for my sister and I; she created beautiful Christmases for us. But when stepgrandad died (he died before becoming eligible for his Social Security so she was left in poverty) she couldn't afford to anymore and Christmases became barrin. She eventually had to sell the little house.
Happy Holidays
Scrawler
December 24, 2004 - 12:52 pm
"If he wanted to keep them after he was dead, a wicked old screw," pursued the woman, "why wasn't he natural in his lifetime? If he had been he'd have had somebody to look after him when he was struck with Death, instead of lying gasping out his last there, alone by himself."
When my son was dying of cancer in the hospital I used to visit him every day and next to him was a girl about his age who was also dying of cancer only her parents weren't able to come every day so when my son was sleeping I'd visit with her. The night my son passed away, I went back up to his room to tell the girl he had passed away only to discover that she too had passed away, but unlike my son there had been no one to be with her. I've often thought about that girl dying alone.
Ginny
December 24, 2004 - 02:24 pm
Scrawler, what a touching story, and how good of you to visit the girl and brighten her life. I am so sorry to hear of your son's death, that and the death of the girl at the same time must have been very sad for you. I am sorry.
I am not sure about dying alone, I am not sure. My mother berated herself for years because she had not been with my grandmother, her mother, when she died. She had to ride over an hour each way when my grandmother, who had had Alzheimers, finally had to have skilled nursing care, but she had lived with us for years and years. The day she died, my mother had visited, nothing was unusual, but after she went home the nurses called that her mother had died, she really berated herself for years. Yes in the book How We Die, the author suggests that perhaps it's best to say your goodbyes while the person can best appreciate them, before the body begins to shut down, I am sure that your visits meant a lot to the girl and of course your son. And I am also unsure on this part of the story and it makes me a bit nervous to read that if you happen TO die alone it means nobody cares about you. That, obviously, is not the case.
Jeane, my goodness what beautiful descriptions, I can almost see it, you must write!!! What wonderful memories your stepgran left you while she could!!
I think of my own grandmother at Christmas, and now that the last of her children have died, have taken to putting a wreath on her grave also, when I do my parents'.
Colkot, what lovely memories also and Cressy House sounds so interesting. Thank you for that "real look" at London and have a save and happy trip back. When I was last in London I went to Dickens's House and the Sir John Sloan Museum, now you talk about eccentric, but how wonderful it was, I loved it, both of them.
Jeane, great points on the hand, I had missed that entirely. Talking about the movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind, the Alistair Sim black and white movie of Scrooge, has this last Ghost with a kind of awful sound that accompanies him, something like that movie about the Extra Terrestrials? Can't think of the name but it's an unearthly sort of squeaky door type of thing. Of course he does not speak.
Also another closed fist is the birth of a child, they come into the world with fists closed, don't they, but we go out open handed.
I believe you're right about the child upstairs, tho it WAS confusing a bit, I like that type of style, you have to figure it out like Scrooge is!
Good point, Scrawler, if this figure WAS Death, then the trembling finger might mean a change of mind, but everybody will die eventually, I 'm not sure what the trembling finger pointed down, means??
Love your thoughts on "fearing the future~!"
Phyll, welcome welcome!! Thank you so much for that fascinating lore, I am always confused over the rag and bone men!! GLUE from bones or skins! "Totters! " Goldfish! You are a treasure chest of information here!
Coklot thank you for the charwomen definition and also for the horse and cart milkmen, I remember them, too, and the ice trucks, but not the coal men! I remember the lamplighters, too, all this in Philadelphia and the glass bottles of milk on the doorsteps and the disgusting or so I thought layer of cream on top. I remember THAT in New Jersey! Hahaah
Solo poppyseed filling? Where might one find something like that??
Barbara, oh I am sure if I perish tomorrow, my children will have to hire a bulldozer, I must get more organized like you are!
I am thinking that the bit about the businessman's exchange was that instead of Scrooge at his normal place of business, there were others present and they were discussing his funeral. They seemed to think the Devil had him and said, or one said he would not go to the funeral unless he was fed. The "'Change," is the Royal Exchange the Financial Center of London. According to my book, "it was customary at the time that no matter how cheap the funeral some food should be provided for the mourners."
And you'll find this interesting: when the first speaker says "for I never wear black gloves," Here's the scoop, according to my notes:
It is customary at most English funerals to present all who attend as mourners with a pair of black gloves, which of course likewise proved useful on other occasions. As everyone who attended receives a pair, even those who were not at all close to the deceased had to wear them in paying their respects. This individual's reluctance to express even this small gesture for the deceased is a remarkable insult form one who then says he must have been the dead mans "most particular friend." He will not even take advantage of a free meal, for it goes against his habits. Personally finding no worldly use for these customs, this unsentimental businessman, like Scrooge is the perfect utilitarian. The funeral must profit him somehow of he will not attend.
So nobody, not even his closest friend, cares much if he died and he asks twice to see some emotion or tenderness connected with this person's death. The responses are interesting, one is glad, the other "tenderness connected with a death" does not concern his but Tiny Tim's. And at the end, drawing closer to the choked churchyard grave, Scrooge IS a changed man.
"Spirit!" he cried, tight clutching at his robe, " hear me! I am not the man I was. I will not be the man I must have been but for this intercourse…Your nature intercedes for me, and pities me. Assure me that I yet may change these shadows you have shown me, by an altered life.
I will honor Christmas in my heart and try to keep it all the year…I will not shut out the lessons that they teach. Oh tell me I may sponge away the writing on this stone."
And so we leave Scrooge here, on Christmas Eve in real life, exactly as he started out in the book: in the dark, in despair, and hugging a bed post.
I really really really like the way this discussion has progressed. We are almost perfectly timed.
I am going to take tomorrow, Christmas Day, off, but if you like, do, please, feel free if you yourselves are free in the afternoon, or at any time of the day, to come in and raise the light on Scrooge on Christmas Day, I can almost hear the bells ringing now!
A very Happy Holiday to you all!!
Wherever you are, however you celebrate, whatever you celebrate, and whether you are alone or in a crowd, I hope you find comfort and joy this holiday season.
Thank you for being part of this discussion, it's been wonderful sharing this with you, and NOW we have the best part to come! See you on Sunday!
jayfay
December 24, 2004 - 09:51 pm
Hello to all. I have been enjoying reading "A Christmas Carol" again this year and what fun it has been to read the posts from all of you. Your comments and information have been wonderful and add so much to my understanding of the book. I had a knee joint replacement on Nov. 29th and have not joined in on the discussions, but I check every chance I have (between home nursing, physical therapy and visits from friends bringing in food-my husband really appreciates not having to cook) to see what is new on the discussions. You are the greatest.
PBS TV has a program scheduled for Sunday at 1:00 on the life of Charles Dickens. The program is titled "Dickens." What great timing for us. I hope it will be televise in your area.
Ginny,
Sorry I had to drop the Latin class, just when I felt I was making great progress. I am checking in but am so far behind now-pain and medication do not help the mind. I am doing well and am now using a cane.
Merry Christmas and Blessings to each of you for the New Year.
Scrawler
December 25, 2004 - 11:12 am
"Scrooge listened to this dialogue in horror. As they sat grouped about their spoil, in the scanty light afforded by the old man's lamp, he viewed them with a detestation and disgust, which could hardly have been greater, though they demons marketing the corpse itself."
"He recoiled in terror, for the scene had changed, and now he almost touched a bed: a bare uncurtained bed: on which, beneath a ragged sheet, there lay a something covered up, which, though it was dumb, announced itself in awful language."
"Its steady hand was pointed to the head. The cover was so carelessly adjusted that the slightest raising of it, the motion of a finger upon Scrooge's part, would have disclosed the face. He though of it, felt how easy it would be to do, and longed to do it; but had no more power to withdraw the veil than to dismiss the spectre at his side."
"Oh cold, cold, rigid, dreadful Death, set up thine altar here, and dress it with such terrors as thou hast at thy command: for this is thy dominion. But of the loved, revered, and honoured head, thou canst not turn one hair to they dread purposes, or make one feature odious. It is not that the hand is heavy and will fall down when released; it is not that the heart and pulse are still; but that the hand was open, generous, and true; the heart brave, warm, and tender; and the pulse a man's. Strike, Shadow, strike. And see his good deed springing from the wound, to sow the world with life immortal!"
Dickens certainly knows how to write suspense. Each paragraph written above becomes increasingly terrible until the last. And here Dickens takes us down another path reminding us that: "It is not that the hand is heavy... but that the hand was open, generous, and true; the heart brave, warm, and tender; and the pulse a man's." This then is what we must remember of our loved ones who have passed away, that they had a "heart brave, warm, and tender."
Malryn (Mal)
December 25, 2004 - 03:53 pm
I think it's only right that people went and stole dead Scrooge's bed curtains and practically the shirt right off his back. Isn't that what he had done to them most of his life?
It's my opinion that Dickens' writing is far too Victorian Gothic here. You can almost see the curlicues and flourishes on the S's. For some reason this particular part reminded me of Daphne du Maurier's Rebecca. I guess it's the Olde English, scare 'em to death, ghoulish heritage.
Mal
Ginny
December 26, 2004 - 07:29 am
On the Second Day of Christmas, here on St. Stephen's Day, or Boxing Day, what a joy to greet you and "Uncle Scrooge," (why Scrooge instead of "Ebeneezer," I wonder?) And to say I hope your entire holiday season has been bright.
Jayfay! SO glad to see you , I have missed you in the Latin but HARK! A show today on Dickens? At 1pm? Let's all try to find it, it would be PERFECT for us today, thank you for mentioning it, I do want to take a look at the man himself in our waning hours here, like the Three Spirits, 2004 grows short.
Scrawler, beautiful post, as per always, thank you for that.
Malryn, good point there on the symbolism parallel, on the shirt off his back! I missed that entirely and I understand you have a new kitten, how wonderful!
It's interesting the point you make about Dickens's writing, many did not care for it, calling it overblown. Henry James, of all people, (hahaha) contemptuously referred to Dickens's writing as "The troop of hunchbacks, imbeciles and precocious children who have carried on the sentimental business in all Mr. Dickens's novels." He actually referred to Tiny Tim as a monster…really, Mr. James, I can barely read ONE of your sentences, talk about overblown!
But then de gustibus non disputandum est, there really IS no accounting for taste, and again Scrooge's giving of the prize turkey also came under attack:
One more time quoting from Michael Hearn's Annotated Christmas Carol:
Not everyone at the time approved such generosity. "The processes whereby poor men are to be enabled to earn good wages, whereby to buy turkeys for themselves does not enter into the account…indeed it would quite spoil the denouement and al the generosity. Who went without turkey and punch in order that Bob Cratchit might get them—for unless there were turkey and punch in surplus, some one must go without—is a disagreeable reflector kept wholly out of sight. (Nassau Senior…Westminster Review.")
Dickens was angered about such Toryism and wrote Forster "how annoyed he was 'that the Westminster Review considered Scrooge's presentation of the turkey to Bob Cratchit as grossly incompatible with political economy.'"
So it seems that no matter the good deed or good will, you can always find somebody with an opposing "concerned opinion."
So let's talk today about any of the questions in the heading or anything that suits you here in our closing days. Let's watch the special on Dickens and talk about him if you like or anything you like in the last few days, I have some interesting stuff on him coming up for you to see, also. Let's talk about Scrooge's conversion, do you think it's permanent, do you think it WAS a dream? Let's talk! A Christmas bowl of smoking bishop for your thoughts!!
Malryn (Mal)
December 26, 2004 - 10:40 am
Mind you, I love the way Dickens writes. It is only in Stave Four of A Christmas Carol that I think he almost gets carried off the deep end. I read some of Henry James's comments about Dickens' writing earlier -- the old hypocrite. They made me smile.
In his book Drinking with Dickens, Cedric Dickens-- the great-grandson of Charles -- tells Ulaby that people back in the 1800s enjoyed a whole range of "clerical drinks."
"Pope is burgundy, Cardinal is champagne or rye, Archbishop is claret, Bishop is port, and so on," Dickens says.
Here's Dickens' "Smoking Bishop" recipe:
• Take six Seville oranges and bake them in a moderate oven until pale brown. If you cannot procure any bitter Seville oranges, use four regular oranges and one large grapefruit.
• Prick each of the oranges with five whole cloves, put them into a warmed ceramic or glass vessel with one-quarter pound of sugar and a bottle of red wine, cover the vessel, and leave it in a warm place for 24 hours.
• Take the oranges out of the mixture, cut in half and squeeze the juice, then pour the juice back into the wine.
• Pour the mixture into a saucepan through a sieve, add a bottle of port, heat (without boiling), and serve in warmed glasses.
• Drink the mixture, and keep Christmas well!
(Note: Paul McClowsky of The Dark Horse Inn in Philadelphia recommends bringing the mixture to a boil, then simmering for an hour, adding brandy, brown sugar and orange juice.)
Souce:
Down a Mug of "Smoking Bishop"
Scrawler
December 26, 2004 - 11:55 am
"He lay, in the dark empty house, with not a man, a woman, or a child, to say that he was kind to me in this or that, and for the memory of one kind word I will be kind to him. A cat was tearing at the door, and there was a sound of gnawing rats beneath the hearth-stone. What they wanted in the room of death, and why they were so restless and disturbed, Scrooge did not dare to think."
In this paragraph Dickens uses "sound" to great an even more melodramatic feel.
"Let me see some tenderness connected with a death," said Scrooge; "or that dark chamber, Spirit, which we left just now, will be for ever present to me."
"Yes, my dear," returned Bob. "I wish you could have gone. It would have done you good to see how green a place it is. But you'll see it often. I promised him that I would walk there on a Sunday. My little, little child!" cried Bob. "My little child."
"He broke down all at once. He couldn't help it. If he could have helped it, he and his child would have been father apart perhaps than they were."
Sentimentality was popular in the mid-nineteenth century and I think Dickens was at his best when he uses it. The last paragraph to me is a strange one. I wonder if when Dickens he was thinking of his own relationship between his parents and himself.
Ginny
December 26, 2004 - 12:27 pm
Frantically trying to find the Dickens documentary, I am finding all sorts of great stuff: Check THIS out!
First, we have a Dickens Time Line from PBS:
Personal Events
1812: Charles Dickens born at Portsmouth
Charles John Huffam Dickens is born on February 7, 1812, the second child of John Dickens and Elizabeth Barrow Dickens.
1817: Dickens's father, John, transferred
John Dickens, a clerk in the Navy Pay Office, is transferred to Chatham in Kent, one of many frequent relocations.
1821: Dickens begins education
Dickens attends William Giles' school in Chatham. Giles is the son of the local Baptist minister; he finds the young Charles to be a superior student.
1822: The Dickens family moves to London
In 1822, Dickens's father, John, is transferred to London. The family lives at 16 Bayham Street. Because of the family's limited financial resources, Charles is not able to attend school.
1824: John Dickens arrested for debt and imprisoned
February: Charles's father is imprisoned in the Marshalsea Prison. His wife and three of his children join him there. Charles stays with a friend of the family, Mrs. Roylance, in Camden Town.
Dickens begins work at a blacking warehouse
Charles is sent to work at Warren's Blacking warehouse, a factory which manufactures shoe polish. Dickens later describes this period of his life as one of "humiliation and neglect."
Dickens's father released from prison
After coming into an inheritance from his mother, John Dickens is released from prison, allowing Charles to resume his schooling.
Dickens returns to school
Charles begins attending Wellington House Academy in North London, where he is an excellent student and begins to nurture an interest in theatre.
1830: Maria Beadnell
Dickens meets and falls in love with Maria Beadnell, but her parents (her father is London banker George Beadnell) object and forbid the relationship. Maria is sent off to school in Paris, thus ending her courtship with Charles by 1833. She is later the model for Dora in David Copperfield.
1833: Catherine Hogarth
Dickens meets Catherine Hogarth, the Scottish-born daughter of a Morning Chronicle music critic. Dickens works as a reporter for The Morning Chronicle from 1834 to 1836.
1836: Dickens marries
On April 2, Dickens and Catherine Hogarth are married. The couple goes to Chalk in Kent for a short honeymoon.
Dickens meets John Forster
Forster is a drama critic for the magazine, The Examiner. He becomes Dickens's close friend, advisor, correspondent and biographer.
1837: Dickens's first child, Charles, is born
Charles Culliford Boz Dickens, "Charley." (1837-1896)
Mary Hogarth dies
Dickens's sister-in-law, Mary Hogarth, who lives with Catherine and Charles, is suddenly taken ill and dies in Dickens's arms in May. Dickens is devastated; he wears a ring of hers until his death.
1838: Dickens's second child, Mary, is born
Mary Dickens, "Mamie." (1838-1896)
Mary is named after Dickens's sister-in-law, Mary Hogarth,
1839: Dickens's third child, Kate, is born
Kate Macready Dickens, "Katey." (1839-1929)
Goddaughter of the actor William Macready.
1841: Dickens's fourth child, Walter, is born
Walter Savage Landor Dickens. (1841-1863)
Godson of the poet Walter Savage Landor, friend of Charles.
Dickens falls ill
In October, following a tour of Scotland with Catherine, Dickens falls ill and undergoes an operation for a fistula.
1842: American tour
Dickens and Catherine leave England on January 4, 1842, for a six-month tour of America.
1844: Dickens's fifth child, Francis, is born
Francis Jeffrey Dickens, "Frank." (1844-1886)
Godson of Francis Jeffrey, founder of the Edinburgh Review.
Genoa, Italy
The Dickens family spends the year abroad in Genoa, Italy.
1845: Dickens's sixth child, Alfred, is born
Alfred D'Orsay Tennyson Dickens. (1845-1912)
Godson of Alfred D'Orsay, a French aristocrat and writer, and Alfred Tennyson, the English poet. Dickens nicknames his fourth son "Skittles."
1847: Dickens's seventh child, Sydney, is born
Sydney Smith Haldimand Dickens. (1847-1872)
1848: Dickens's sister Frances dies
Dickens's sister "Fanny," a close friend, dies at age 38 from consumption.
1849: Dickens's eighth child, Henry, is born
Henry Fielding Dickens, "Harry." (1849-1933)
With his brother Edward, Harry will start the Gad's Hill Gazette, a family newspaper; pursue a successful law career; and be knighted in 1922.
1850: Dickens's ninth child, Dora, is born
Dora Annie Dickens, Dickens's ninth child, is born. (1850-1851)
1851: Catherine Dickens falls ill
In March, Catherine Dickens suffers a nervous breakdown.
Dickens's father dies
John Dickens, who had become financially dependent on his son Charles, dies in March. Dickens modeled the character of Wilkins Micawber in David Copperfield after his father.
Dora Annie dies
In April, Dickens's eight-month-old daughter dies.
1852: Dickens's tenth child, Edward, is born
Edward Bulwer Lytton Dickens "Plorn" (1852-1902)
1855: Dickens again meets Maria Beadnell
Dickens's memories of his former romantic interest don't jibe with the chattering and frivolous middle-age woman Maria Beadnell, now Mrs. Maria Winter, has become. He models Flora Finching in Dorrit after Beadnell.
1857: Dickens meets Ellen Ternan
Ellen ("Nelly") Ternan is a professional actress, working on the Manchester performances of Dickens's production of Wilkie Collins's The Frozen Deep. Their relationship will last until Dickens's death.
1858: Dickens and Catherine separate
In May, Catherine agrees to move to independent lodgings with son Charley.
1863: Dickens's mother and a son die
Dickens's mother, Elizabeth Barrow Dickens, dies at the age of 74. His son, Walter, a lieutenant in the 42nd Highlanders, dies in Calcutta.
Thackeray dies
William Makepeace Thackeray, Dickens's close friend and rival, dies.
1869: Dickens falls ill
Exhaustion and illness forces Dickens to return home from an English reading tour.
1870: Dickens dies
On June 9th, 1870, after a day of work on his novel in progress, The Mystery of Edwin Drood, Dickens dies. He is buried in the Poets' Corner in Westminster Abbey on June 14th.
Professional Events
1827: Dickens begins work
Dickens is removed from Wellington House Academy and begins work at Ellis and Blackmore, an attorney's office, as a solicitor's clerk to help support his family. He finds the work monotonous.
1828: Dickens begins work as a court reporter
Dickens learns the cryptic Gurney's shorthand at Ellis and Blackmore and begins work as a freelance court reporter at Doctor's Commons.
1831: Dickens works as a parliamentary reporter
By 1831, Dickens is adept enough at shorthand to record proceedings in Parliament for the Mirror of Parliament, a paper managed by John Henry Barrow, his uncle.
1832: Covent Garden Theatre audition
Dickens, entertaining the idea of becoming an actor, arranges an audition at the Covent Garden Theatre, but illness forces him to cancel.
1833: Dickens publishes first story
In December, Dickens publishes his first story, "A Dinner at Popular Walk," in the Monthly Magazine, a journal with a circulation of about 600. Contributions to the Monthly Magazine are unpaid.
1834: Dickens works for the Morning Chronicle
Dickens becomes a reporter for the Morning Chronicle, covering Parliament and the passage of the Reform Bill.
Dickens continues to publish
Dickens publishes dozens of sketches in the Monthly Magazine, the Morning Chronicle, the Evening Chronicle and Bell's Life in London during 1834 and 1835.
1836: Sketches by Boz
In February, the first series of Sketches by Boz, a collection of writings, is published with illustrations by George Cruikshank. "Boz" was a pen name Dickens used early on; it came from the nickname Dickens gave his younger brother Augustus -- Moses. As a child, Augustus pronounced the name "Boses," which was ultimately shortened to "Boz."
The Pickwick Papers
In March, Dickens's first monthly serial, The Pickwick Papers, begins its run (concluding in November of 1837). Originally a series of comic sketches, it evolves into a loosely structured novel. After a shaky start, it becomes a huge success.
1837: Oliver Twist
Oliver Twist begins publication in Bentley's Miscellany in February; it concludes its 24 installments in April of 1839. Dickens is editor of Bentley's from January of 1837 to February of 1839.
1839: Nicholas Nickleby
Beginning publication serially in March, Nicholas Nickleby is an exposé of schools that were little more than dumping grounds for unwanted children.
Dickens's fame grows
Dickens is a member of both the Garrick Club (a London men's club) and the Atheneum Club (for scholarly and eminent men); his circle of friends includes William Harrison Ainsworth, George Cruikshank, actor W. C. Macready, painter Daniel Maclise and John Forster.
1840: The Old Curiosity Shop
Dickens begins serialization of The Old Curiosity Shop -- pitting the virtuous Nell against the evil Quilp -- in his new weekly periodical, Master Humphrey's Clock.
1841: Barnaby Rudge
Barnaby Rudge is an historical story based on the Catholic Relief Act riots of 1780 in London. It begins serialization in Master Humphrey's Clock in February of 1841.
1842: American Notes
Dickens tours America for five months (including stops in Boston, Hartford, New York, Philadelphia, Washington, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Niagara Falls, and Albany) and writes this critical account of his journey, angering many Americans.
1843: Life and Adventures of Martin Chuzzlewit
An erratic mix of satire and comedy, Martin Chuzzlewit is an intricate tale of greed and power; it targets the hypocrisy of Americans and the greedy nature of some Englishmen. Chuzzlewit is serialized from January of 1843 to July of 1844.
A Christmas Carol
In order to fend off some financial difficulties, Dickens decides to write a Christmas story. A Christmas Carol, destined to become the classic story of the holiday, is published in December of 1843.
1845: Theatrical company debuts
Beginning in 1845 with Jonson's Every Man in His Humour, Dickens begins amateur theatricals, giving him an outlet for performance as well as production.
1846: Dombey and Son
A complex novel about a man who wishes for a son at the expense of his daughter, Dombey and Son begins serialization in October of 1846.
1847: Cheap Edition
The first collection of Dickens's works, the Cheap Edition, begins serial publication.
1849: David Copperfield
The most autobiographical of all of Dickens's novels, David Copperfield is peppered with some of his most enduring characters. It begins its serialization in May of 1849.
Guild of Literature and Art
Dickens and his friend Edward Bulwer-Lytton co-found the Guild of Literature and Art, an organization designed to aid worthy writers and artists.
1851: A Child's History of England, Vol. I
The narrative A Child's History of England begins serialization in Dickens's weekly periodical Household Words in January of 1851.
Christmas Books
Dickens publishes five Christmas stories he has written (1843-1848) in one Cheap Edition collection: A Christmas Carol, The Chimes, The Cricket on the Hearth, The Battle of Life and The Haunted Man
1852: Bleak House
Bleak House, a novel of intrigue and legal frustration, begins its serialization.
1853: First public reading
In December, Dickens gives his first public reading (of A Christmas Carol).
1854: Hard Times
A short and controversial novel, Hard Times is a fable indicting industrialism; it is serialized in Household Words in 1854.
1857: Little Dorrit
A dark novel about the effects of debt and imprisonment, the somber Little Dorrit begins its serialization in December.
1858: Public readings
Dickens gives extensive public readings -- 88 readings in 44 different locations, starting in London and then throughout Britain.
1859: A Tale of Two Cities
London and Paris are the setting for Dickens's story of Sydney Carton and the French Revolution. The weekly serialization, in All the Year Round, begins in April.
1860: Great Expectations
Considered by many to be Dickens's greatest work, Great Expectations is a novel of crime and punishment, narrated in the first person by Philip Pirrip, or "Pip." It begins its weekly serial run in December.
1864: Our Mutual Friend
In his last completed novel, Dickens interweaves elements of murder mystery, class struggle, envy and corruption. The story is serialized between May of 1864 and November of 1865.
1866: Reading tour of England and Scotland
An exhausted Dickens completes an arduous reading tour of England and Scotland during the spring.
1868: Reading tour of America
Although sick and weary, Dickens makes a successful reading tour of America, largely motivated by the monetary rewards of such a trip.
Sikes and Nancy
In England, Dickens performs the emotional performance piece Sikes and Nancy for the first time. His flair for the theatrical makes for a riveting presentation, but one that takes an emotional and physical toll.
1870: Dickens is received by Queen Victoria
In March, Dickens is received by Queen Victoria at Buckingham Palace in a private interview.
The Mystery of Edwin Drood
Dickens writes six parts of a projected 12 of The Mystery of Edwin Drood, leaving the mystery unsolved forever.
1872: Forster's The Life of Charles Dickens
John Forster begins work on a Dickens biography immediately after his friend's death, utilizing old letters and memorabilia gathered over the years.
World Events
1801: Thomas Jefferson inaugurated
Jefferson, the first Republican president of the U.S., takes the reins of government from John Adams and the Federalists.
1803: Louisiana Purchase
The purchase of the vast territory -- 827,000 square miles from Napoleon for $15 million -- doubles the size of the United States.
1804: Lewis and Clark Expedition
Meriwether Lewis and William Clark lead an exploration of the American West (1804-1806), from St. Louis to the Pacific Ocean.
1809: James Madison inaugurated
Madison, Jefferson's secretary of state, becomes president of the United States.
1812: Napoleon's Russian campaign fails
Undersupplied and ill prepared, Napoleon's invasion of Russia with 600,000 troops ends in a disastrous retreat and contributes to the demise of the French empire.
1812: War of 1812
The United States, frustrated by British harassment and interference in shipping, declares war on Great Britain. The war ends with the Battle of New Orleans in 1815.
1814: Congress of Vienna opens
A year-long meeting convenes to determine the future of Europe.
1817: James Monroe inaugurated
Monroe, in a sweeping victory for the Republicans, takes office and continues Madison's domestic programs.
1818: 49th parallel decided
The Convention of 1818 fixed the border between the United States and Canada along the 49th parallel.
1819: The future Queen Victoria born
The only child of Edward, Duke of Kent, Victoria is born at Kensington Palace, London, on May 24.
1821: Napoleon dies
In exile, on the barren British island of St. Helena, Napoleon dies in May.
1823: Monroe Doctrine
James Monroe establishes United States. foreign policy which opposes any extension of European control or influence in the Western Hemisphere.
1825: John Quincy Adams becomes President
In the election of 1824, Andrew Jackson had won a plurality of the electoral vote, but John Quincy Adams was chosen the winner by the House of Representatives.
Beethoven's 9th
Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827) writes his Ninth Symphony.
1826: Duke of Wellington becomes Prime Minister
Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington, resists pressure for constitutional reform as Prime Minister of Britain (after defeating Napoleon at Waterloo in 1815).
1829: Andrew Jackson inaugurated
After a vigorous campaign, Andrew Jackson, a Democrat, becomes the seventh president.
1830: William IV begins his reign
William IV (1765-1837) becomes King of Great Britain and Ireland.
Revolution in Paris
Louis Philippe (1773-1850) becomes King of France, the "Citizen King."
1831: Cholera pandemic
A cholera pandemic spreads from India to Russia, into Central Europe, reaching Great Britain by 1832.
London Bridge opened
Designed by John Rennie Sr. and built by his son John Rennie Jr., London Bridge crosses the Thames River with a center span of 150 feet.
1833: Slavery is abolished in the British Empire
1834: Spanish Inquisition suppressed
The Spanish Inquisition (1478-1834), a political and religious reign of terror, is finally quelled.
Poor Law Amendment Act
In Britain, the Poor Law Amendment Act led to an immediate fiscal savings because conditions for the poor were made intentionally harsher than before.
1837: Victoria becomes Queen of Great Britain
Following the death of William IV, Victoria ascends to the throne at the age of 19.
Martin Van Buren inaugurated Martin Van Buren becomes the eight president of the United States.
1840: Queen Victoria marries
In 1839 Victoria proposes to her cousin, Prince Albert of Sax-Coburg-Gothe; they marry on February 10, 1840.
1841: Harrison/Tyler
William Henry Harrison inaugurated; he dies one month after becoming the ninth U.S. president. John Tyler becomes president after Harrison's death.
Sir Robert Peel
Sir Robert Peel, a Tory, becomes Prime Minister of Britain.
Treaty of Nanking
The Treaty of Nanking ends the Opium War between Britain and China; Britain controls Hong Kong.
1844: Samuel F. B. Morse
Morse perfects and demonstrates his electric telegraph for the first time.
1845: James K. Polk inaugurated
Democrat Polk becomes the 10th president of the United States.
1847: British Factory Act
British Factory Act restricts working day to 10 hours for women and children.
1848: U.S, Women's Rights convention
Organized by Lucretia Mott and Elizabeth Cady Stanton, the convention meets in Seneca Falls, New York, and issues the "Declaration of Sentiments."
Communist Manifesto
Karl Marx and Frederick Engels publish the "Manifesto of the Communist Party."
Gold Rush
Gold is discovered in California, sparking the arrival of a flood of emigrants.
1852: Emperor Napoleon III
Despite an oath to the Republic, Napoleon III (1808-1873) proclaims himself emperor and the reign of the Second Empire begins.
1853: Franklin Pierce inaugurated
Pierce becomes the 14th President of United States.
1853: Crimean War
The Crimean War (1853-1856) is fought between the allied forces of Great Britain, France, the Ottoman Empire and Sardinia, and the Russians.
1856: The Victoria Cross
Queen Victoria institutes the Victoria Cross for gallantry during the Crimean War.
1857: James Buchanan inaugurated
Buchanan, a moderate Democrat, becomes the 15th president of the United States
Victoria and Albert Museum, London, opens
The Victoria and Albert Museum is founded to support and encourage excellence in art and design.
England and India
England proclaims peace and colonial rule in India.
1859: Origin of the Species
British naturalist Charles Darwin (1809-1882) publishes On the Origin of the Species by Means of Natural Selection, explaining his theory of evolutionary selection.
Big Ben erected
London's tower clock, housed in the Houses of Parliament, is erected.
1860: Abraham Lincoln inaugurated
Lincoln is elected 16th President of United States, provoking southern secession from the Union.
1861: Outbreak of U.S. Civil War
Fort Sumter (in South Carolina) falls to the Confederate Army in April.
Emancipation of Russian serfs
In the wake of the Crimean War, Alexander II, Emperor of Russia, institutes the abolition of serfdom.
1862: Bismarck becomes Prussian Prime Minister
As Prime Minister, Otto von Bismarck devotes himself to the effort of uniting Germany under Prussian leadership.
1863: Emancipation Proclamation
Abraham Lincoln issues the Emancipation Proclamation, pledging the Union to the abolition of slavery.
1864: Abraham Lincoln reelected
Abraham Lincoln is re-elected, defeating Democrat General George B. McClellan
Sand Creek Massacre
A regiment of Colorado Volunteers, led by John M. Chivington, murder between 200 and 400 Cheyenne Indians, most of whom are women and children.
Pasteurization
Louis Pasteur, the father of modern medicine, invents pasteurization, a process by which heat is used to destroy harmful microbes in perishable food products.
1865 Appomattox
Confederate States of America formally surrender at Appomattox, Virginia; U.S. Civil War ends.
Abraham Lincoln assassinated
Lincoln is assassinated by John Wilkes Booth at Ford's Theater in Washington in April.
Lord John Russell
Lord John Russell (1792-1878), a Whig, becomes Prime Minister of Britain.
1866: "Black Friday"
Plummeting gold prices in the United States precipitate a securities market panic on the London Stock Exchange.
1868: Andrew Johnson impeached
The House of Representatives votes to impeach President Andrew Johnson, but Congress falls one vote short of the majority needed.
1869: Suez Canal opens
The Suez Canal opens, enhancing Great Britain's power by facilitating travel between the Indian Ocean and the Mediterranean Sea.
1870: Franco-Prussian War
German states under the leadership of Prussia defeat France by 1871.
John D. Rockefeller founds Standard Oil
By 1898, the Standard Oil Company will refine 84% of all oil refined in the United States.
Brooklyn Bridge opens
A brilliant feat of 19th-century engineering, the Brooklyn Bridge links Brooklyn and Manhattan over the East River.
1873: Andrew Carnegie
Despite a nationwide economic depression, Andrew Carnegie (1835-1919) and partner Henry Clay Frick take control of the U.S. steel industry.
1874: Disraeli becomes Prime Minister
The 1st Earl of Beaconsfield, Benjamin Disraeli (1804-1881), a British statesman and author becomes Prime Minister.
Winston Churchill born
Winston Churchill, son of Lord Randolph Churchill and Jennie Jerome, was born in Blenheim Palace, Woodstock on November 30, 1874.
1875: Public Health Act passed in Britain
1876: Alexander Graham Bell
Alexander Graham Bell invents the telephone.
1877: Empress of India
After the Indian Mutiny of 1857, the government of India was transferred from the East India Company to the Crown; in 1877 Victoria became Empress of India under the Royal Titles Act passed by Disraeli's government.
Rutherford B. Hayes inaugurated
Rutherford B. Hayes becomes 19th president of United States. He promises to withdraw Union troops from the South to end a dispute over his election.
1881: James A. Garfield inaugurated
James A. Garfield, who will die from an assassin's bullet only six months after taking office, is inaugurated as the 20th president of the United States.
1882: Triple Alliance
The Triple Alliance was formed when the secret Dual Alliance of Germany and Austria-Hungary (1879) was joined by Italy in 1882. Serbia also joined in 1882, and Romania in 1883.
Tchaikovsky: 1812 Overture
Known for his colorful and romantic music, Russian Peter Ilyich Tchaikovsky (1840-1893) composes the 1812 Overture for the consecration of the Cathedral of the Redeemer, built to commemorate the events of that year.
Electrification of New York
To attract investors, Thomas A. Edison builds a power plant that lights 85 buildings in New York City.
Showing you the events that took place around the same time.
Next we have a QUIZ!! A Dickens Quiz and a London Tour, check Dickens Quiz and London Tour if you dare!
Still looking!
Malryn (Mal)
December 26, 2004 - 04:06 pm
I found this website about Dickens, researched and constructed by Misuhuru Matsuoka, a professor at Nagoya University, which I think is very good.
The Dickens Page, a page of many links to Dickens websites
Discover Dickens' Kent (Illustrated)
Malryn (Mal)
December 26, 2004 - 10:37 pm
Laocoon was a priest in Virgil's Aeneid who didn't trust the Trojan wooden horse. "Beware Greeks bringing gifts. . ." He threw his spear at the horse, and not long after that two sea serpents wound themselves around him. Scrooge's clothes were wound around him like the serpents in the Aeneid. Click here to see the statue of Laocoon.
Joe Miller was a comedian. In 1739 a book of jokes called Joe Miller's Jests was published. The only part of Joe Miller that appeared in the book was his name in the title, used as a come-on so people would buy it.
Walk-ER is Cockney. I read that it was used to call someone a fool without saying the word.
Mal
Ginny
December 27, 2004 - 08:27 am
Happy Third Day of Christmas: Three French Hens, we need to do that song and what THOSE stand for, what fun this has been, we've talked about this discussion for years, I'm glad we finally got to do it even IF I had to read this gigantic book to go with it, it was worth it!
Good point, Scrawler about the SOUNDS and that IS a strange last paragraph, I had not noticed it, sharp eyes!
The December 20 issue of USA Today had a huge article entitled " Hetty's final words? Perhaps bah, humbug!" It calls Hetty Green, known as "The Witch of Wall Street," "America's Turn of the Century Scrooge," but apparently she did not amend her ways. In a new book Hetty : the Genius and Madness of America's First Female Tycoon, the author Charles Slack reveals in her older feeble days she would take a young clerk on almost month pilgrimage to the sixth floor of a boarded up loft on Broad Street in New York. Here in the dark, dusty cold are the treasures of her life: a sleigh she used to ride in with her father, the buffalo robe she would wrap around herself on sleigh rides, old newspapers, a ship's figurehead and the dress she wore when she danced with the Prince of Wales.
Reminds you of the song, "I danced with the man, who danced with the girl, who danced with the Prince of Wales…."
At any rate, even here in 2004, we find Scrooge still lives in the media.
Malryn thank you for those fabulous links! I like the way the first one closes out from the main page, did you notice? Cool! And of course Kent is one of my favorite places on earth, so beautiful! Gad's Hill is certainly pretty, you can see why he had a fascination with it!
Thank you also for the information on Walk-ER and Joe Miller. My book adds that Joe Miller was a popular but illiterate comedian, whose purported jokes and saying s were collected by the dramatist John Mottley in Joe Miller's Jest-Book but that may in itself have been a joke. Miller reportedly never came up with any especially clever or original remark,…but the book quickly became the best –known English collection of witticisms and almost any stray joke was attributed to his apparently unfunny person.
Thank you Malryn for the Lacoccon also, I've seen that thing, it's incredible.
The statement.. "And to Tiny Tim, who did NOT die…" was not in the original manuscript. Apparently Dickens felt the need to "reassure his readers that the shadow of the vacant seat mentioned by the Ghost of Christmas Present was now gone, and that the reformed Scrooge was able to save at least one child from the feat of the demons Ignorance and Want."
SOOOOooo, do YOU all think it was only a dream?
Malryn (Mal)
December 27, 2004 - 08:46 am
GINNY, what I didn't see when I posted those links was The Life of Charles Dickens by John Forster. Dickens' letters are good to read, too. Who ever would have thought about a Dickens Society in Japan?
No, I don't think it all was a dream. Scrooge had an epiphany like the one Bill Wilson had. Though Scrooge may have slipped once or twice after the dramatic Christmas Eve experience he had, I tend to think the change in him was a permanent one --- as long as he "keeps the memory green", as they say in AA. As long as alcoholics remember the damage they did in the past to others and themselves and the change that occurs when recovery begins, they are not likely to go back to old behavior. "Temperance" can be applied to many different things.
Mal
Malryn (Mal)
December 27, 2004 - 08:54 am
I meant to say that reading and discussing A Christmas Carol made this a very special and good Christmastime for me. I was very sad because my dear little black cat constant companion for 16 years died. This story kept my mind occupied and my thoughts off her. Now I'm preoccupied with a much younger gray and white kitty who is such an imp that she keeps me smiling and amused and very busy cleaning up the messes she makes. She found the top of my monitor this morning and knocked a big pile of papers and books off this computer table, just as one example of her youthful, very happy place in my home and my life.
Mal
Ginny
December 27, 2004 - 09:30 am
Malryn, what a pretty kitten!! (Cat?) It's gorgeous, and of course she's called Scrooge? Marley? We have a dog named Marley haahahah I love Marley and everything he stands for, well Christmas joy for you and I'm glad you have enjoyed this, I have, too!
Your mention of alcoholism reminds me of some objections made to the mention of spirits (alcoholic) in A Christmas Carol, you really have to wonder what gets into people sometimes. Thank you also for the great stuff on Smoking Bishop, that's more than the book has. And speaking OF Hearn's An Annotated Christmas Carol, lo and behold another huge section of notes on the 1 1/2 hour presentation of it Dickens used for a reading script! hahahaaha OH, will let you all know if anything NEW comes to light!
Scrawler
December 27, 2004 - 11:04 am
"Men's courses will foreshadow certain ends, to which, if preserved in, they must lead," said Scrooge. "But if the courses be departed from, the ends will change. Say it is thus with what you show me."
Is it never to late to change our lives? Are we destined to be who we are today because of the choices we made in our past. Do the choices we make as young men and woman influence us for life? The ancient Greeks believed that they were destined to be who they were because the gods decreed it, in our world of "choice" is it better or would you rather be told how your life should be?
I sometimes think about my grandparents who were betrothed to each other when they were 3 years old. As their lives went they were very happy together and lived well into their 90s.
Mal: I'm glad you're little gray and white kitty found you. I tend to think of my black and white cat as a "2 year old in fur". She's a great companion. After my husband died, I went to work one day and found her curled up in my In-box. She's been with me for almost 10 years now.
colkots
December 27, 2004 - 04:54 pm
Read all the posts..just came back from Santa Monica to a freezing cold Chicago. What this book has done for us all is to make us chat about Christmases past and present. I think we take our customs with us and embellish them to suit the circumstances under which we now live.
For instance, the "Wigilia" supper Nina, Casey and I hosted on the evening of December 24,(at the first star) took place OUTSIDE in her garden, a sitdown meal. When it got really chilly, we went inside for dessert, carols and gift giving.Carols, I may add, from many sources.
I don't ever remember eating turkey in England. My mother cooked goose
or a capon. She did make mince pies(small individual ones)baked a
Christmas cake,(I have the recipe written out by my father) and made Christmas"plum" pudding.. which has no plums in it. Remember I grew up
during WW2 and a lot of things just were not available.
On Christmas day we were pleased to attend a turkey dinner with
all the trimmings..it was very nice.. the dessert was Christmas pudding..if you are not aware..it's a very heavy steamed pudding with
suet in it as the shortening. dried currants, raisins, candied orange
and lemon peels, eggs, flour, sugar, some kind of liquor (beer often) the whole mess is turned into a basin, covered with a linen cloth and steamed for several hours. It's left to cool and rest. Much much later (weeks, days, months) it's steamed all over again and served,often
lit with brandy, sometimes with a "hard sauce" or custard.
Thanks, but no thanks.
I really enjoyed revisiting A Christmas Carol...the book..
Now I'm going to enjoy the "Muppets Christmas Carol" with Michael Caine.
Colkot
Scrawler
December 28, 2004 - 11:16 am
"Yes! and the bedpost was his own. The bed was his own, the room was his own. Best and happiest of all, the Time before was his own, to make amends it!
"I am as light as a feather, I am as happy as an angel, I am as merry as a schoolboy. I am as giddy as a drunken man. A merry Christmas to everybody! A happy New Year to all the world! Hallo here! Whoop! Hallo!"
"Really, for a man who had been out of practice for so many years, it was a splendid laugh, a most illustrious laugh. The father of a long, long line of brilliant laughs.
"He was checked in his transports by the churches ringing out the lustiest peals he had ever heard. Clash, clang, hammer; ding, dong, bell! Bell, dong, ding; hammer, clang, clash! Oh, glorious, glorious!
"Running to the window, he opened it, and put out his head. No fog, no mist; clear, bright, jovial, stirring, cold; cold, piping for the blood to dance to, Golden sunlight; Heavenly sky; sweet fresh air; merry bells. Oh, glorious. Glorious!"
Not only was Scrooge changed and realized he had: "a splendid laugh, a most illustrious laugh" but the world itself had changed. The church bells "ringing out the lustiest peals he had ever heard." And when he ran to the window he saw: "No fog, no mist; clear, bright, jovial, stirring, cold; cold, piping for the blood to dance to..."
It seems that way doesn't it. When we are happy the rest of the world is happy, but if we are sad, indeed, the world seems more dark and dreary.
Hermione
December 28, 2004 - 03:39 pm
I wish people today would remember the message of this story. There is such wealth and such poverty. A hundred years doesn't seem to have changed anything.
Ginny
December 28, 2004 - 05:40 pm
On the fourth day of Christmas my true love gave to me….Four colly birds….three French hens, two turtle doves, and a partridge in a pear tree.
I once read a wonderful explanation of this old counting song, but can't find it now, something about Colly having to do with coal, marvelous background.
The additional notes in the Performance Copy of the text refer to Dickens' presentation of the text in performance on the stage, some of them are quite interesting, for instance:
Bob Cratchit saying "if quite convenient, Sir."
John Hollingshead reported in The Critic on September 4, 1858, that "Mr. Dickens throws himself into bob Cratchit, leaning over the elbow-rest upon the reading-table, with a meek, subdued voice, and a mild timid expression of countenance, casting an instantaneous impression of the poor, feeble , struggling clerk, which lights up the whole history of his past life…." Charles Kent said the clerk had "the thinnest and meekest of frightened voices." The New York Times reported that "the audience caught sight at once of the little, round-faced, deferential, simple-hearted clerk, as if he had entered bodily; and they greeted him with a hearty round of applause, the first in which they had interrupted his reading." Dickens gave The Scotsman the vivid picture of Baob Cratchit "with this teeth missing from his lower jaw and his upper lip drawn in, and whistles in his speech and a cheery look about his wizened face, and a scared look in the eye."
So you can see just from that note that Dickens really acted out the parts!
Scrawler, what interesting questions, are we destined to be what we are today because of the choices we made in our past?
What would the rest of you say to that?
Coklot, welcome back home, you make a good point on the turkey, until Dickens wrote this goose was the main dish, but after this a lot of people wanted turkey. Capon! I did not know what a capon was! But they had tons of them at the supermarket and I almost bought one, how does it compare to a chicken? That Christmas pudding sounds VERY interesting! Hahahaa How were the muppets and Michael Caine?
Scrawler, isn't that something that Scrooge at his age (I'm not sure how old he IS are any of you?) discovers he has an illustrious laugh. Bless his heart. You are also right that when you are happy the whole world DOES seem to shine, and how beautifully Dickens wrote that, just reading that over in your post made ME happy!
Hermione, welcome. Yes, good point, indeed!
And so now in the waning hours of 2004, we're about to take our leave of Mr. Scrooge, a man who
knew how to keep Christmas well, if any man alive possessed the knowledge. May that be truly said of us, and all of us!
Does anybody have any last parting thoughts as we close, reluctantly, our book here? I think of my favorite movie, the Alistair Sim, and how it begins, the opening of the book. You may be interested in these notes on the various movies made from it by Michael Patrick Hearn:
The first move was a British production of 1901 , called Scrooge or Marley's Ghost. Essanay made a silent picture in 1908, Thomas Edison another in 1910. Bransy Williams had an unusual career as Scrooge, having played him on the stage he made the earliest sound recording for British Edison in 1905 and did the same for Columbia Records in 1912; he also appeared in the first sound picture in 1928 from British Sound Film and well as the fist BBC TV version in 1946.
Seymour Hicks, once the most famous stage Scrooge in England, repeated the role in the 1935 Twickenham talkie Scrooge. Lionel Barrymore played Scrooge on the radio beginning in 1934, but Reginald Owen filled in when Barrymore was too ill to appear in the 1938 MGM picture.
The first American TV version aired in 1941. Ronald Colman, Ralph Richardson, Alec Guinness, Frederick March, Basil Rathbone. Emlyn Williams, Albert Finney, Lawrence Olivier, Bill Murray, Michael Caine, Mr. Magoo, Mickey Mouse, the Muppets, Even Eleanor Roosevelt have all been involved in one form or another with A Christmas Carol.
There have been ballets and operas, and Benjamin Britten composed Men of Goodwill: Variations on A Christmas Carol in 1047. The strangest production was either "Rich Littles' Christmas Carol," of 1963, in which the impersonator took all the parts or Marcel Marceau's "mime" BBC version in 1973.
There was an all Black Broadway musical, Comin' Uptown which opened in 1970 with Gregory Hines. The Alan Menken musical has been a popular annual holiday production at Madison Square Garden since 1994 (and inspired Kelsey Grammer's latest TV version). There have been admirable TV productions with George C Scott in 1984 and Patrick Stewart (who also did an excellent one-man stage version) in 1999.
Perhaps the best live-action dramatization was the classic 1951 British movie with Alistair Sim as Scrooge.
The finest animated cartoon remains Richard Williams' 1970 Academy Award-winning picture, which beautifully brought John Leech's pictures to life with Sim providing the voice of Scrooge.
WOW! Now how many of those have you SEEN??? Or heard??? And where has that one with John Leech's pictures brought to life been all MY life??
I have the Rathbone recording, have seen the Muppets, Bill Murray, Kelsey Grammer, Reginald Owen, (I collect Scrooges) Seymour Hicks, Albert Finney in the musical which I really like, George C. Scott, Patrick Stewart, but to me the quintessential Scrooge is Alistair Sim. Which is YOUR favorite film or TV or radio depiction of Scrooge?
Have any of you seen this Richard Williams' Academy Award winning thing?
A plum-less plum pudding for your thoughts!!
Barbara St. Aubrey
December 28, 2004 - 10:13 pm
hmmm would "The Total Abstinence Principle" to abstain from drinking liquor? I did not catch that Scrooge had a drinking problem and yet, it could be that it was a problem for Victorian England and Dickens was making a statement that went along with being a thoughtful, all 'round good guy -
My favorite part was actually the first bit - learning what Marley meant to Scrooge and what his death meant to Scrooge - I never picked up on that before. I can associate his behavior as much to closing down emotionally after the death of Marley as to all the sorrows in his life. To see this story as a metaphor for isolating or at the least closing down our emotions in order to free yourself from pain was a wonderful new discovery.
Loved the discussion and so many great posts - so glad we read this - the reading gave new light to the story that seeing a movie version does not bring - I guess that is it - the movie offers the director and actors view rather than our own view...!
All this bracing cold that the story speaks of sheesh - visiting my daughter in the mountains of NC I find the cold not bracing at all - I am so glad I live where I do live so that when it does get cold everyone has the good sense to stay home and life stops for a bit BECAUSE for the most part we do not have to live and work or play in the cold - if it does snow it is a celebration every 5 years or so and we do not have to dry our skin or the house out with all this heat. Now visiting to play in the cold for a few weeks each year is one thing but the idea of getting up every day for several months plying on the clothing - always having to wear something warm on your feet - nope, not for me...
Ginny
December 29, 2004 - 05:46 am
On the Fifth Day of Christmas, my true love gave to me…. 5 golden rings! Four colly birds, three French hens, two turtle doves, and a partridge in a pear treeeee.
Welcome here on the 5th Day of Christmas. How we long to "keep Christmas in our hearts" all year long, do we succeed?
Barbara, so good to see you here from frozen NC, that's what fireplaces are for! Now you can appreciate Bob Cratchit more, England, as you know, is even more damp, especially if you have only a candle to warm self with.
Barbara, the author Jeff Shapiro is attempting to get in touch with you, can you access your home email?
According to my book notes, there's quite a bit of interesting trivia on the Total Abstinence Principle .
The book says it's a pun on "spirits," associating alcoholic spirits with real ones. The Total Abstinence Principle adherents took a pledge to abstain from all intoxicating beverages (also called "spirits," ) and Dickens has Scrooge doing so here, also, with different kinds of spirits.
Dickens was roundly criticized for the amounts of reference to intoxicating beverages in A Christmas Carol. He wrote back to an offended woman that had he been at Mr. Fezziwig's ball "I have no doubt I should have taken a little Negus---and possibly not a little beer, and been none the worst for it, in heart or head." He actually reminded the pious lady of the Marriage in Galilee.
In truth, however, in real life, Dickens "liked to dilate in imagination over the brewing of a bowl of punch, but I (James E Fields in 1872) always noticed that when the punch was ready, he drank less of it than any one who might be present. It was the sentiment of the thing, and not the thing itself, that engaged his attention."
So he liked the romance of the idea rather more than the thing in actuality.
Talking about the thing in actuality, I thought you might like to see the original, now in the Pierpont Morgan Museum in New York City. I tried to see it this holiday season but the museum is closed for renovation, I know they display it at Christmas time and will hope to see it in future:
The Original Manuscript of A Christmas Carol: Click to enlarge!
What last thoughts do you all have on this wonderful timeless and inspiring story??
A hot bowl of steaming punch for your thoughts!
Malryn (Mal)
December 29, 2004 - 06:16 am
I love that manuscript. Thank you, GINNY. It shows how hard Dickens worked to get things exactly the way he wanted them and right. I have manuscripts in boxes in my place that look like that.
During really cold North Carolina weather, the heat pumps in this sprawling house full of glass cannot heat the place well. When this last "cold spell" hit, the heat pump for this apartment finally gave its last gasping breath. Since we can't have a new heat pump installed right now, my daughter bought a space heater, designed to heat less than half of the 550 square feet here and the area created by a very high peaked roof.
Bundled up in several layers of clothes with a hat on and a blanket around me as I sat at this computer trying to do my publishing work and correct the proofs of my book, I was still very cold. Dorian went out again and bought two more space heaters, which manage to heat the living area of this big room. The bedroom area and bathroom stay cold. The cold is much worse on damp days, and we had some over Christmas.
On Christmas day my wheelchair and I were carried down the steps to the adjoining studio and up more steps into my daughter's house so I could eat dinner with the family.
I don't know where her heat pump thermostat was set, but there was a blazing fire in the fireplace, too. I about roasted there.
In northern Massachusetts where I grew up, cases of chilblains occured very frequently because of poorly heated houses. I can remember sitting on my bed pulling up the long brown stockings I had to wear and putting on the rest of my clothes and shivering so much I could scarcely put a button in a buttonhole or tie my shoes. Shades of England!
I realized this year that one reason I felt so Christmasy was the cold. It reminded me of many Christmases past. Reading A Christmas Carol only heightened the mood. Because of it and the weather, it was, indeed, a very good Christmas for me.
Mal
Scrawler
December 29, 2004 - 01:21 pm
"Good morning, sir. A Merry Christmas to you." And Scrooge said often afterwards, that of all the blithe sounds he had ever heard, those were the blithest in his ears."
Does anyone know what "blithest" mean?
"He had never dreamed that any walk -- that anything -- could give him so much happiness. In the afternoon he turned his steps towards his nephew's house."
I think this could be a theme of this book -- that we find happiness whenever we see, hear, touch, smell, or taste something.
"Some people laughed to see the alteration in him, but he let them laugh, and little heeded them; for he was wise enough to know hat nothing ever happened on this globe, for good, at which some people did not have their fill of laughter in the outset; and knowing that such as these would be blind anyway, he thought it quite as well that they should wrinkle up their eyes in grins, as have the malady in less attractive forms. His own heart laughed: and that was quite enough for him."
"He had no further intercourse with Spirits, but lived upon the Total Abstinence Principle, ever afterwards; and it was always said of him, that he knew how to keep Christmas well, if any man alive possessed the knowledge. May that be truly said of us, and all of us! And so, as Tiny Tim observed, God Bless Us, Every One!"
I believe that this is the heart of the story: it really doesn't matter what others may think or do, what's important is what we DO. And what Tiny Tim said: God Bless Us, Every One! goes for all of us today as well!
I've really enjoyed this discussion and may you all have peace and harmony in your lives today and always throughout the coming year!
besprechen
December 29, 2004 - 07:40 pm
Thanks to each of you for a fulfilling, interesting, worthwhile, entertaining and enlightening discussion of this classic. Reading the story has inspired me to add plum pudding to our family buffet on Christmas Eve, complete with fresh holly sprig and flaming brandy! Everyone present, from the six-year-old granddaughter to the elders, found the pudding to be extremely interesting and a great touch with history and tradition. Fortunately, the recipe I used from the Internet was delicious, the hard sauce delectable, and it made a great addition to the desserts. Happy New Year to one and all.
bimde
December 29, 2004 - 09:18 pm
This was my first time in a discussion of a book, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I looked forward each evening to coming to my computer and reading the different posts.My, what eye-openers they were for me! I am so glad that I found Senior Net! Thanks everyone for a very interesting reading. Your posts gave me new insight into Charles Dickens and the times in which he lived. Have a Happy, healthy New Year, all of you!!
Jeane
December 29, 2004 - 10:26 pm
Can you set up a link to the plum pudding receep you used? Thank you. It sounds like yours was successful.
Stigler
December 30, 2004 - 07:31 am
Ginny, Thank you so much for setting up this wonderful discussion. I haven't posted too much; but like Bimde, I looked forward to reading what everyone else had written and the links were wonderful too. It was so nice to reread this classic and learn so much of the story behind the story.
Judy
Phyll
December 30, 2004 - 08:23 am
Wonderful job! I enjoyed this discussion very much and learned a lot from it. I am not always "at peace" with Dickens and his writing but I gained a new apppreciation of this story. And all the background information from you and everyone else added so much. Thank you.
jayfay
December 30, 2004 - 10:54 am
This was my first time in a discussion of a book also. I have enjoyed reading the posts and checked in several times each day to see what was new. It was good to have something to focus on as I recover from surgery. Even though I participated very little I learned so much. Thanks Ginny, you are the greatest. I am so glad I found Senior Net.
I taped the Dickens documentary on PBS and am now enjoying that (3 hours is a little much at once so I am viewing it in one hour segments-glad I taped it). Dickens had quite an interesting life. The times in which he lived were harsh. Makes me thankful for the blessings of this day and time in which we live. We take so much for granted.
Thanks to each of you and Blessing to all for the New Year.
Ginny
December 30, 2004 - 11:48 am
On the Sixth Day of Christmas, my true love gave to me, six geese a laying, five golden rings! Four colly birds, three French hens, two turtle doves, and a partridge in a pear tree~!
Well greetings here on the 6th Day of Christmas, what lovely gifts your own posts are! Thank you. We'll conclude tomorrow with one last word from Charles Dickens himself and then this discussion will be archived, but I, too, have enjoyed it and am so glad we finally got around to doing it, it's been a great season brightener, in itself!
Malryn that does sound cold! (What IS a chilblain I have heard of them all my life?) Glad you had a good Christmas, I did too, and glad you like that manuscript, it's kind of a thrill to see his own handwriting, I can't tell if that's a cartoon of a ghost at the beginning or not? Love it.
Scrawler, on "blithest" I thought he meant the superlative of blithe, as in hail to thee blithe spirit, apparently it means full of joy. Does anybody else have an idea?
I agree with you on this, too: "I believe that this is the heart of the story: it really doesn't matter what others may think or do, what's important is what we DO." Yes and in every situation, known and unknown, somebody needs to tell Achilles that!
besprechen, thank you so much for those super words!! I'm with Jeane, I'd love to see that recipe, too. I had hard sauce this season FROM this discussion and it was GREAT with the mince pie.
bimde, what a beautiful post, we are so taken with it we want to quote it, if you will allow it, it's wonderful. WE are so glad to have YOU!
Stigler, aren't you kind! Thank you and thank you for participating!
Phyll -, aren't YOU kind, wow this is like a gift in itself, thank you and thank YOU for your own contributions!
Jayfay, another fabulous post, thank YOU so much and we hope you continue to get well and recuperate. We are so glad you enjoyed it and that you found SeniorNet, too! Gee this is wonderful.
Here's a bit more on the famous manuscript pictured above in yesterday's posts (from An Annotated Christmas Carol): Dickens presented "my own and only MS of the book" to his solicitor Thomas Mitton, perhaps out of gratitude for the work he did on the chancery suit against the piracy of A Christmas Carol. Five years after Dickens' death, Mitton sold the manuscript to a London bookseller, Francis Harvey, reportedly for 50 pounds. An autograph collector, Henry George Churchill, quickly snatched it up in 1882 and late sold it to the bookseller Bennett in Birmingham. The transaction caused enormous excitement in the area, with crowds of people begging for a glimpse at the famous manuscript. Robson and Kerslake of London bought it from Benentt for 200 pounds and quickly turned it over to Stuart M. Samuel, a Dickens collector, for 300 pounds. It was from Samuel that J Pierpont Morgan secured the manuscript for an undisclosed price. Before it left England, apparently for good, a facsimile was published in 1890- by Eliot Stock in London and Brentano's in New York. The Pierpont Library published its own edition in 1967 and again in 1993 with a new introduction by John Mortimer.
The book Merry Christmas! A History of the Holiday reports that
A Christmas Carol , written feverishly in the last few months of 1843, was not an immediate success. But when Dickens began reading his works aloud on speaking tours, the Carol was the favorite of his audiences.
Crowds as large as 35,000 in the US as well as England, came to hear him speak.
Christmas in the eighteenth century lost almost all of its religious meaning. Church services were conducted, but few people attended them. Many simply spent the day playing cards. Theaters offered pantomimes and puppet shows to entertain the wealthy and their children, but the old Saturnalian ideas of gambling, eating and drinking held first place. For a laborer's family, Christmas often meant a chunk of beef, a pack of cards and a bottle of gin.
Finally in England, too, the day became more pleasant again. Queen Victoria and Prince Albert were largely responsible, for the royal couple did much more than introduce decorated trees; their lavish family celebrations soon were imitated in middle class homes throughout the nation. …Much credit must be given to Charles Dickens…Dickens wrote a number of other Christmas stories as well…they all influenced the Christmas of his time.
Some books credit Dickens single-handedly with restoring or creating the Christmas we now know.
And tomorrow, as noted, we'll have our final greeting from Charles Dickens, I don't think you'll be surprised to see it!
besprechen
December 30, 2004 - 05:58 pm
I used a recipe from Cooks.com The site has several versions, but I happened to pick this one:
http://www.cooks.com/rec/doc/0,1840,157181-246200,00.html I did make some minor changes as follows:
Recipe Lists My Change To:
1 cup Sherry 1 C. Peach flavored Brandy
2 cups Dates 1 cup cut-up Dates
1 cup Golden Raisins (soak overnight
in Rum, then drain)
1-1/2 cups grated carrots 2 cups finely shredded carrots
1-1/2 cups chopped nuts 1 cup Pecans, chopped & ½ cup Walnuts, chopped
Bread crumbs Prepared Bread Crumbs, Old London
A 5 liter, middle size pyrex bowl, sprayed with Pam, was used for steaming.
Cover tightly with alum foil, place in a stockpot, supported by a steamer rack, and then add water to half way up the bowl. Cover with the stockpot lid and bring water to a simmer.. Keep it simmering for 4 hours or until a cake tester comes out clean and of course check the water level often and add water as needed.
LEMON BRANDY HARD SAUCE
1 ½ Cup powdered sugar
½ Cup (1stick) butter
3 Tablespoon Brandy ( or other liquor….I used the Peach flavored Brandy again)
1 teaspoon Vanilla
1 Teaspoon grated lemon peel
1 Tablespoon Lemon juice
colkots
December 30, 2004 - 06:04 pm
I've really enjoyed all the posts and did anyone answer Boxing day
which was the day after Christmas when the Lord of the Manor gave
"boxes" or "gifts" to all his employees.. so it would make sense for Scrooge to raise Bob Cratchit's salary.
Did mention that Charles Shaughnessy(late of the Nanny) and I were discussing Christmases past in England during breaks on the set of Mystery Woman. Two Brits decided that USA is THE place to be !
Open fires have a tendency to roast the front of you and freeze the
buns.. did you ever notice how often men are depicted withtheir backs
to the fire, warming that part of their anatomy!!
Chilblains are nothing more than a form of frostbite. They come up on fingers and toes as itchy bumps once you have warmed up. I suffered
from them a lot as a child, particularly being evacuated. We had no
warm waterproof boots in those days.
As to my favorite versions of a Christmas Carol...Alistair Sim
takes the top spot..(The stage version my daughter did comes second..)
Michael Caine and the Muppets come in third...I've a soft spot for his
work.. and I loved the reference to his real name.. the store where
he does his shopping is named "Micklewhites"
And a Happy New Year to all.. Good Health and Joy to all my friends
at Senior Net. May wonderful things happen for all of you. Colkot
anneofavonlea
December 31, 2004 - 01:34 am
Thanks for a great discussion. I have read and reread this but saw it in a whole different light this year.
Chilblains were part of everyday life when we were young. Walking to school on frosty mornings the veins in the top of ear got so cold they would swell up, and become very painful. If not properly cared for they opened and became sores,gosh the thought of it gives me goose bumps.havn't seen them in years though. We used to go to the dairy to milk so I guess that was a factor as well. I think if you went without socks you could get them in your toes as well, not that we ever did. We used to stand in warm cow pat to warm our feet. very hygenic stuff.
My plum duff was great, although way less luxurious than the one mentioned, as we use no eggs and only raisins and dates.
Off to celebrate New Year at the club, not a lot of heart for it with the tsunami news, but as they are collecting for them decided to go along. Happy New Year to all.
Anneo
Malryn (Mal)
December 31, 2004 - 08:12 am
"I am as light as a feather,
I am as happy as an angel,
I am as merry as a school-boy.
I am as giddy as a drunken man.
A merry Christmas to every-body!
A happy New Year to all the world!
Hallo here! Whoop! Hallo!"
Ginny
December 31, 2004 - 09:12 am
On the 7th Day of Christmas my true love gave to me…. 7 swans a swimming, 6 geese a laying, 6 golden rings! Four colly birds, 3 French hens, 2 turtle doves and a partridge in a pear tree!!
Well here we leave Scrooge and his counting house, and our counting song, to wish all of you the Merriest of Christmases yet to come and the Happiest and Healthiest of New Years!
besprechen, thank you so much for that wonderful recipe for plum pudding and your additions, I have copied it down to try next year! It looks delicious!
Colkot, NO you did not tell us about Charles Shaunnessy, as this discussion is closing please come to the First Page Café, I want to hear more! Thank you for Boxing Day information and I too think Alistair Sim is THE Scrooge!
You mention people backing up to the fire, true and funny story: my husband's cousin was visiting us, and we have this giant fireplace in the living room but we did not have it burning as we had just come in, but, used to it, she backed up to the television to get warm! Hahahaha She just did it without thinking and we all got a good laugh over it! Merry, merry!
Anneo, thank you for that information on chilblains also, had no idea. I saw Australia's fireworks for the New Year on the news this morning, fabulous! Yes that terrible tragedy, almost unbelievable, so glad they are collecting funds for aid.
Malryn, well said, and merry merry and all the best to all of you in the New Year, have so enjoyed it, and let's let Charles Dickens have the last word:
"And as Tiny Tim observed, God Bless us every one!"
This discussion is now Read Only, thank you all for making it so enjoyable!