Constant Gardener ~ John LeCarré ~ 4/01 ~ Book Clu Export

The Constant Gardener by JOHN LE CARRÉ
"This is a masterful novel by one of the most compelling and elegant storytellers of our time."... "Featuring his strongest heroine since "The Russia House", le Carre's "The Constant Gardener" combines the international suspense of his Cold War thrillers with the exotic romanticism of "The Little Drummer Girl".... Links: Kenya Profile	Are you a fan of John LeCarre's books? Are you partial to tales of intrigue, romance, and corporate greed? Join us soon, to discuss this latest best-seller! DISCUSSION begins APRIL 1st SCHEDULE OF READING April 1 thru 7 ...Chapter 1 thru 5 April 8 thru 14 ...Chapters 6 thru 11 April 15 thru 21 ...Chapters 12 thru 17 April 22 thru 30 ...Chapter 18 thru 25th ...(Ending and post-mortem) Contact: Lorrie or Andy	Quotes "A desk is a dangerous place from which to watch the world"...............John LeCarre "For decades to come the spy world will continue to be the collective couch where the subconscious of each nation is confessed"................John LeCarre Body Hunters

Click on the link below to buy the book

Click box to suggest books for future discussion!

Greetings, all you LeCarre fans and those who just love to read good books! We will be starting a discussion of this popular book on April 1, and we welcome anyone who would like to join in.

Please post here if you would like to participate. All comments and opinions are welcome!

Lorrie and Alf

I'm in, and am having a hard time not opening the book yet! hahahaha

ginny

I've finished it and returned it to the Library, but I'm looking forward to the discussion.

š ...jane›

I have my reading done for the first week.. Very hard not to go on... But I will go back and re-read.

Ginn, Jane, Pat: This is great! We are already getting a group together! Anyone else out there who would like to discuss this book with us?

My co-host is cavorting around New Orleans for a few days but I'm sure she will want to welcome you also when she returns.

Lorrie

me too... I still have to go and buy it! Francy

Ah, FrancyLou reappears! Good!

Lorrie

Always lurking! lol Francy

I have ordered my book. It should be here any day now. I have never read LeCarre's book, but when I read the reviews, I thought this book might be interesting.

HATS

Welcome, Hats!

There is a fascinating interview with LeCarre that was done for the Jewish World Review. Click on to it, I'm sure you'll enjoy this! It's interesting to hear the author's point of view.

LECARRE

Thanks Lorrie. I am clicking at this very moment.

HATS

Great, Hats! Glad to see you in here. I was beginning to wonder if I was hearing echoes in here. Anyone else planning to join us on the 1st for a discussion of this book? to be perfectly honest, I haven't started reading it yet, but I'm really looking forward to it. Alf says she has read part, and can't wait to get at the rest, if she isn't too full of Cajun food and Dixieland music when she gets back! hahaha

Lorrie

Let's see, we've got Ginny, Jane D., Pat W.,FrancyLou, and Hats, so far! That's a good start! And I think Betty G will be joining in! Hooray!

Lorrie

I found this book hard to put down once I started. That hasn't happened to me with a book for a long time, and it was nice to enjoy my reading so much once again.

š ...jane›

This is an interesting development. Apparently there is an uproar over in Africa about this book, and it appears to be hard to come by. I read this from an English newspaper:

"The latest thriller by the British writer John Le Carre is - like so many of the veteran author's books - proving to be a bestseller around the world.

Le Carre's novel has caused waves overseas.

But it is not doing well in Kenya, where the book is set. Booksellers have been alarmed by the negative image of their country portrayed in the story by the veteran spy novelist. Many fear they might be punished for stocking the work by the authorities - who are not painted in the best light."

Hmmmmmmm!

Lorrie

I have the book and plan to read it with you. Thanks for the link, Lorrie.

Linda

Great, Hairy! We've got a really good group of people planning to read this book with us. I can't wait to get started! This is almost as suspenseful as waiting for these great piles of snow to finally melt down! Will Spring ever get here?

Lorrie

Hello All,

This is my first LeCarre book. Has any one read his other books? Which ones?

Are all of his settings in a foreign country?

HATS

Hi, Hats! Yes, I've read a number of other LeCarré novels. I especially liked the books with the British Secret Service Agent George Smiley. You may have seen some of the movies on PBS...Smiley's People, and Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy. Those two tend to be about England, but other countries often figure in as well, of course.

š ...jane›

Oh, yes, Hats, and there was one actor who, in my estimation, was George Smiley, and that was Sir Alec Guiness.

Hats, there were so many very good books. For years, when we think about books about espionage, the first name that usually comes to mind in John LeCarre. I understand this book is a departure from his usual genre, and is creating quite a stir. I can't wait to finish it!

Lorrie

In an interview with a British journalist, here is an interesting comment LeCarre made in regard to other English writers:

In the United States you're treated as a great novelist, over here as a great genre writer. Why?

"I don't know. I now have a much larger readership in Europe than in the US. And there I seem to get by as somebody who's commented on our own time. In this country, actually to persist with one subject and to work that field as I have done is simply perceived as hack work. The notion that you might be using a microcosm to illustrate a larger context is considered pretentious. On the whole I've avoided the company of my fellow English writers and that world. I think that it threatens me in a number of ways. Envy is always up and running. I've made a lot of money out of writing, I've made a name. But more particularly I fear for myself that I could be drawn towards their standards and their pretensions. I don't read them. I've dipped into [Ian] McEwan, walked away again, and dipped into a number of highly rated contemporary writers. I feel we're simply not in the same ball park. I don't mean I'm better or worse, I mean we're just doing completely different things. So I just feel completely out of step with the English literary scene."

Lorrie

All interesting comments.

HATS

Dear Hats: I have a feeling you and I are going to get on extremly well! hahaha All of you, just wait until my gallivantin' co-host comes back from New Orleans, I'm sure we will be having a lively discussion.

I'm pretty gutsy. I found a publishers' address for John LeCarre, and I wrote him a letter in their care inviting him in to our discussion. So what have we got to lose? What the heck, he might even enjoy himself. At least if I do it now there's time for the letter to catch up with him and to join in, if possible.

Lorrie

Hey gang! The "big easy" spit me back, didn't want me! Oh well, I will be here for our discussion. Lorrie! You--- actually wrote to LeCarre? Oh what a great idea and what a coup for you if he joins us. Oh pray that it will be so. I have read LeCarre books from way back when. the heading , done by our Pat W. is absolutely beautiful, I love it Pat. You are to be commended!!!

Lorrie, how exciting!!!! I hope Mr. LeCarre can join us. I began the book. Wow!!! Thank goodness, I had already eaten my bagle. What a beginning!!! I will not say another word.

This is quite different from the "cozies" I am usually reading.

HATS

I don't have any illusions as to our chances of getting Mr. LeCarre to participate in our discussion, but what the heck, what have we got to lose? Who knows? Besides, I told him we're not just a group of blue-haired, flowered-hatted, chattering old ladies, so I'm sure I've appealed to his sexual nature. Hahaha

Do you think that many of our current writers are under-rated? Some people do, read this:

"Which authors, or books, do not enjoy the standing they deserve? Continuing our series on underrated reputations, H. M. Chief Inspector of Schools, Chris Woodhead, nominates John le Carré. ROMANCE, crime fiction, spy stories: we classify, more often than not, in order to dismiss. Great novels cannot, we argue, be pigeonholed; neither do we believe that they are likely to sell in large numbers. Fictions that appeal to the masses must be simple; complex masterpieces have, necessarily, a limited appeal.

John le Carré’s reputation has suffered on each score. There is a grudging acknowledgment that he is the outstanding novelist of the Cold War, but this is to damn with faint praise. It is to point to the limitations of his success - whatever his narrative skill and psychological insight. This, of course, is nonsense. George Smiley is one of the great characters of recent fiction. The fact that the televised version of Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy was watched by millions is, or ought to be, irrelevant in judging the book’s significance. It is a spy novel which transcends the genre, which speaks to all of us who, like Smiley, ponder the vicissitudes of our lives. Other le Carré novels are similarly moving. He is one of our most important writers - by pigeonholing him we undervalue him."

Lorrie

Lorrie here I am, I see the discussion isn't starting untill April I will have the book read by then as it has to be back in the Library befor then. I will come back though and join in.

I have the book inb the living room. Unlewss my wife puts it away and doesn't remember where , I will be here April 1st. Am looking forward to this, but wanted to wait so I wouldn't forget the book before we discuss it.

Camw

That's great, carrollee! Try to renew the book, too, at the library when you return it. That way it's easy to refer to it when you want. Either way, I'm so glad you'll be joining us here.

CamW, I laughed so at your mention of "Senior Moments" about recalling the book, etc. I's great that you will be among the group here. Welcome to you both!

Lorrie

Hoooooooooray! Now we have carollee and cam. We are in business. I still have two more chapters to go before I am finished reading this novel. I've made numerous notes, half of them written while I was trekking along on that damnable treadmill. Needless to say, there are a few notes that even I can not decipher.

I went and bought the book today! I will reread chapter one (Bill posted the URL to the first chapter). Francy

Good for you, Francy! And good going, Partner! I must confess I haven't started the book yet, but will tomorrow.

Listen, is this satisfactory to everyone? We follow (loosely) the schedule in the heading above? This is not a tightly scheduled discussion, let's keep it simple. Read the book at your own pace, but discuss it at ours. In other words, please don't give anything away if you have read further than where we are discussing, Okay?

Lorrie

Count me in, unless having already read the book counts me out. I read it straight through. Of course I am a LeCarre fan. Bought and read every book he has written. Can't wait til April 1st.

That's great, Howzat! No, it doesn't matter that you've read the book already, we still will welcome any thoughts you might have! It's like I said before, read the book at your own pace, just discuss it along with the planned itinerary, and I'm sure there will be plenty you will recall. Good to hear from you!

Lorrie

There has been news almost daily coming from Africa about the Aids crisis. Here is another report:

STOPPING THE PLAGUE

The World Trade Organization steps into Africa's AIDS crisis, creating incentives for pharmaceutical companies to give some of their drugs away. By Ben Barber

March 19, 2001 | WASHINGTON -- A glimmer of hope has been beamed into Africa and Asia, where millions have died and millions more expect to die of AIDS. According to a plan announced Monday by the World Health Organization and the World Trade Organization, anti-AIDSW drugs which cost $10,000 a year per patient in America and Europe are to be given free to the poorest victims of the AIDS epidemic.

The two organizations said they will meet in Norway next month with experts and advocates to figure out how to deliver the drugs to people who are dying by the thousands each week. Under the proposed plan, the WTO would work to negotiate patent laws with drug companies and member nations, while the WHO would raise money to pay for production of the drugs and would administer their distribution.

The announcement marks an unprecedented response from drug companies to humanitarian pleas that millions of people not be left to die while life-prolonging medicines sit bottled up on pharmacy shelves. Approximately 70 percent of the world's AIDS cases are in Africa. The WHO estimates that 25 million Africans are infected with HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. Currently only 10,000 of them are receiving drug treatment to stem the progression of the disease.

"The world is ready to move on from squabbling about patent issues," said Dr. Nils Daulaire, head of the Global Health Council, which is organizing the April 8-11 meeting in Hosbjor, Norway, titled "Differential Pricing and Financing of Essential Drugs."

"This is not aimed at undercutting pharmaceutical patents," said Daulaire, formerly the top international health official at the U.S. Agency for International Development. Indeed, drug firms plan to send representatives to the meeting to ensure they retain their profitable drug patents in the West, where better-off patients and private and public health insurance plans have been paying full price.

Drug firms argue that they need to recoup the hundreds of millions of dollars they invest in research for these drugs and that they need revenue to create the drugs and vaccines of the future. Rather than abolish patent rights for AIDS drugs, participants in the Norway meeting will try to create a system of licensing the right to produce generic versions at a few cents per pill for those unable to afford the current cost in America and Europe.

The meeting will include representatives of some of the 39 pharmaceutical companies that recently went to court in South Africa to try to prevent distribution of generic drugs produced without permission from the patent holders.

An official with one of the organizations involved in the meeting, speaking on condition of anonymity, said that the pharmaceutical companies are torn between the desire to help people and the fear of what a weakening of their patents -- the fundamental basis of their revenue -- could mean for their business.

The official said that after pressure from the press, the companies finally agreed to take steps to let go of their patents under negotiated terms. "They want to get out from under the image of holding a glass of water while someone is dying of thirst," the official said.

Also speaking on condition of anonymity, a senior official of one of the involved organizations said that the giant pharmaceutical companies finally made the talks possible in the past three weeks by surrendering their legal battles in South Africa and elsewhere to keep all their patents and profits...........................

Lorrie

I'm just lurking for the moment.

Hey, CMac: Good to see you! Come on in and get your feet wet. We haven't officially begun our discussion of this wonderful book yet, but we do encourage any and all lurkers to join us when we do. Can you tell us a little about yourself? Are you a fan of John LeCarre? How's the weather where you are? Too nice out now to be indoors with a book? Then be outdoors with a book! Hahaha We'll be hoping to hear from you.

Lorrie

Well I can't believe, I actually got the book from the library yesterday. Though I did not get Sand/fog in time to join discussion, I need to finish a few pages today before I pick up LeCarre during the week. I too never read one of his books before- so I'm a newbie.

I also read rather slowly- and get home from work way late during the week, so I like the pace for discussion and the don't give away the next part rule.

HI, THERE, YILIN: Good to see you!

That is precisely why we schedule a few chapters at a time, so that even though many of the readers have finished the book, others are still plodding through. I do assume that by the ist of April we all will have read the first five chapters, at least. I know I just started and I find it hard to put down.

Incidentally, have you all been following the political situation in the Kenyan government lately? It appears that the present administration, which apparently figures so strongly in the book, is under fire all over for human rights abuses. Today in our Twin Cities Sunday papers they are featuring the story of the unexplained death of a Minnesota priest, Father John Kaiser. Senator Wellstone has become involved and there is now an investigation jointly with the FBI and the Kenyan officials. Many fear Father Kaiser was murdered, and an official in the Moi regime is under suspicion. This is getting to be absolutely fascinating! If it was LeCarre's plan to open a can of worms here, he has certainly succeeded! Back to the book.

Lorrie

There is so much truth in these behind the scenes horrors that do exist.

You won't believe this....Went to the Library but didn't have the right name for the book and then couldn't remember how to spell authors's name. Can't blame it on a senor moment cause I've always been this way. It's called an interlectual overload. OK back I go tomorrow with a written note to me. Of course the computer at the library spit out all kinds of titles to me but not the right one. Guess it was a computer for dummies....Stay with me. I shall catch up. Slow but steady. After all I only have a 27 inch inseam.............

CMac: Of course I believe you! I wouldn't dare trust myself to go to the library without a full written explanatory note to myself telling me what I was going to the library for in the first place, really. Never fear, dear heart, there still is plenty of time.

I assume that everybody has read at least the first five chapters before we begin on Sunday. (After everyone has set their clocks ahead, that is!)

Lorrie

I take a note with me whereever I am going.... then hope I remember the note!

I started the book... reread chapter 1 already. Just trying to get over "The Chamber" still... terrible time trying to get past it.

Francy

Yes, FrancyLou: I think it's safe yet to say that I do get a charge out of that typical "old boy network" British accent that LeCarre is so good at doing! I say, old chap, must keep a stiff upper lip and all that, right? Just as Justin is described as a "proper Etonian."

Lorrie

Thanks everyone for sympathizing with me. Makes me feel that I am only up to "Z" in Alzheimer. I've been on this computer half the day so still didn't get back to the library or liberry as we say in Philadelphia. I have my note all written and a note written to remind me to take the original note. I still can't see why the computer couldn't figure out what I wanted..... See you all on the first. Clare

Does anyone know what CMac is talking about? I can't remember.

Lorrie

Your choice was of "The Constant Gardener" was serendipity. We shall discuss a book I have in hand and just completed. For once there will be none of my catching up or running to keep ahead.

My son, the doctor and idealist, read the book and recommended it as a big WOW. I have read most, if not all Le Carre novels, so did not hesitate and ordered it immediately. It is terrific! I look forward to reviewing and discussing with all you great people.

LOUISE! Welcome to our rapidly growing group! We will be particularly interested in your son's reaction, as a physician and idealist,besides your own, in view of this particular subject matter. I'm so glad you will be joining us, especially someone who is active with other SeniorNet activities.

It's good to hear from you.

Lorrie

Okay let's have an impromptu roll call:

Ginny, Pat, Jane, FrancyLou, Hats, Hairy, carrolee, camW, Howzat, Cmac, YiLilin, and now Louise! Did I forget anyone? Are you all still with us? Will you all be around on Sunday when we begin? Alf and I are really looking forward to this discussion; we're anxious to see what your reactions to this book will be.

Lorrie

Yes, I'm here...have requested the book again at the Library since I read it a while ago.

š ...jane›

I'm here (HI LOUISE!!) and will try to get the first five chapters read by Saturday!

ginny

Hi, I am here and lurking in the background. Feel quite guilty as I have read the book and cannot remember it. Plan to read it again, as my memory is such that a few clues bring things back again. Will let you know.

Lou

Finally had some time to read- a plot thickens!

I am here and reading! I can not wait... I have questions.

Wonderful! Everybody's rarin' to go. It has seemed like a long time until the 1st, hasn't it? Frankly, I'm sort of glad, because I am having trouble reading more of the book. Every night when I try to finish another few pages, I fall sound asleep and wake up hours later with the light on and my glasses crooked. But believe me, that has nothing to do with the story!

Lorrie

Hey great Louise. You've already got the book and are raring to go. I understand you sons comment of WOW. Being in the medical profession leaves us not only cynical of the "pharmas" but gives us a sense of utter belief in this story. I am happy you'll be joining us.
Louwev- It will be easy to remember these characters once we get started here in this forum. How can one forget them? Jump in anytime, we are pleased you're joining us.
Welcome to everyone else. Many of you I have shared thoughts and insights with in other discussions and anticipate that your impressions of this novel will enlighten me, as usual. I love this! I always get to learn so much and feel so humbled in the midst of all of your convictions.
Lorrie: Sorry I've been delinquent here. I forget to bookmark this bloody site. . Did you ever hear a word from Mr. LeCarre? wouldn't it be great if he could join us?

I finished chapter 5 last night. I am primed and waiting for sunday. I may or may not be able to comment as I have to drive to Annapolis and then across the bridge to Rock Hall sunday. Looking at two boats (I hope). Don't know how late I will get back home.

Camw

Hi, Andy!! Oh, it's so nice to see your name here, and we all hope you're doing just fine these days!!

I haven't given up the remote hope of hearing from John LeCarre! Why not? I had to write him snail mail in care of hie publishers, but at least I didn't get the letter back unopened. I told him that we were not just a bunch of blue-haired, flower-hatted old ladies simpering over the latest best-seller! So there!

Lorrie

Good for you Lorrie. I hope that we hear from him.

Do not fret camw. You take your time choosing your boat as we will be here awaiting your return.

I am in hopes that one of our participants will have visited this region in Africa. WHY? I don't know. A safari perhaps? Hahah, it definetly would not be my choice of destination. I must admit to my dim recollections of Kenya, especially Nairobi, where this novel opens. I learned that the city's name is derived from a Masai word meaning "place of cool waters." I kept thinking of that throughout this read. It seemed like everything BUT cool. Nairobi is one of the largest and fastest growing cities in Africa and is Kenya's principal economic and cultural center. My Atlas came in very handy as I read along.

I heard an interview with LeCarre on Public Radio last night- it was done awhile ago but he made a few interesting points about this genre that has me reading differently.

You might be able to find the interview on the web page for your public radio stations. I learned they do that and archive specific shows - some you can playback and HEAR on realplayer. I think that whatver the public radio station in Austin Texas is- it has the most stuff available- I listened on WNYC- perhaps one of you computer techie's can find it online and create a link. I think Ginny and Barbara live in Austin and might be able to checkout that station's homepage and do the same.

YiLiLin: Thank you for the info about the interview on Public Radio. Another poster had already alerted me to that program, and right now we are looking into it. Thanks for the notifications.

Lorrie

For those of you who are set up for audio, click on to this site and scroll down to hear an interview with John LeCarre. I only wish he had talked a little more of "The Constant Gardener."

John LeCarre interview

Lorrie

That’s a very good heading! And strength of character shows in the John Le Carre portrait.

Bill H

Yes, doesn't it, Bill! Incidentally, it seems that for a while in Kenya, because of the uproar over this book, it was very difficult to buy a copy. To wit:

"The black market for literature in Kenya is alive again, fuelled by demand for the latest novel by John Le Carré. Bookshop owners have refused to stock The Constant Gardener for fear that the direct mention of President Moi and the head of the civil service Dr. Richard Leakey in the book, which some reviews have dubbed "docufiction", may trigger a repeat of punitive libel cases witnessed last year.

But while booksellers wait for the official go-ahead from government censors, Le Carré fans and curious readers are buying the book through unofficial sources. Whispered requests in the right ears produce copies of the book from under the counter. Shopkeepers have been told they will know whether they are allowed to sell the book on Monday 15th January, but in the meantime they are unwilling to risk ordering the book which may bring down heavy fines on them as happened to two bookstores last year................Kenya Online

I read that in the 90's Nairobi was the site of many demonstrations calling for greater democracy in Kenya and protesting Moi's leadership.

Moi, Daniel arap (1924- ), second president of Kenya (1978- ), who succeeded Kenyan independence leader and first president Jomo Kenyatta, and has since maintained control over the ethnically divided nation. Moi was born in a village in western Kenya, which was then a colony of the British Empire. He was trained as a teacher and taught from 1946 until 1955, when he was appointed to one of the African seats in Kenya's Legislative Council. Moi won an elected seat on the council in 1957, and along with the seven other African elected council members he began pushing for an end to British colonial rule.

"Moi, Daniel arap," Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 2000. © 1993-1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Lorrie, Sorry you didn't understand my Dutch. It was a matter of going to the library and forgetting the name of the book. I put what I thought it was on the computer. I put Constant Gardening by John LaCarr and I thought I was close enough for the computer to figure it out......When I went back again without my written note the library had two copies which were already spoken for so I have to wait. I will LURK for the present.

Cmac: We are happy to have you with us for the discussion with the book in hand or sans book.

YiLi Lin and Lorrie - Thanks so much for the link to the Le Carre interview. Just that short time span gives the essence of the man and where he's coming from. Looking forward to a lively discussion!

CMac: Don't give up hope! On two occasions while I was waiting for a book at the library, I was lucky enough to follow two incredibly rapid readers, and both books turned up shortly. Let's hope that's your case, but you hang in there, anyway!.

Andy: Thanks for the info on Kenya. I've been reading some newspaper articles about that area, and I'll post some links to them after we get going.

Lorrie

WELCOME, EVERYONE!

ANDY AND I LOOK FORWARD TO AN ENGROSSING DISCUSSION OF THIS BOOK, AND WE ASK ALL OF YOU TO PLEASE OBSERVE THE USUAL COURTESIES AND GOOD MANNERS IN YOUR POSTS. FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE ALREADY FINISHED THE BOOK PLEASE DO NOT GIVE ANYTHING AWAY BEYOND THE POINT WHERE WE ARE DISCUSSING.

HERE ARE A FEW CASUAL QUESTIONS ON THE FIRST CHAPTERS:

1. In your estimation, what is the significance of the title, “Constant Gardener?”
2. What was your first reaction to the character Sandy Woodrow? And later? Did you like him?
3. What was your impression of the two interrogators, Rob and Lesley?

Let’s hear from all of you!

Lorrie

I kind of the think the book is called the Constant Gardner in honor of Justin...

I did not like Sandy Woodrow, seemed very cold. Now I am wondering what he is hiding (besides the affair).

Rob and Lesley seem to be very smart! Not sure if I like them or not, no real feelings about them.

I am still in Chapter 5, so I may change how I feel.

Well I can not sleep, and have been thinking about the question of the name of the book. It could be that Sandy is the Constant Gardner. When I was working we "put out fires". In a way it is like gardening, you pull weeds, deadhead, trim, prune.... plant seeds, cover up....

Lorrie, I have not been able to get the book yet and am also into reading two books for two discussions groups that I meet with here. Hope you will not dun me for being late. I also will be lurking until after I get the book. I am a long time Lecarre fan and have read all of his books but this one. The man is wonderful writer, IMHO! In reading just the first several paragraphs, I was intriqued by the description of his childhood since it follows his book , "The Perfect Spy" which means that some his prose is biographical.

I am expecting company for breakfast. Another LeCarre fan! My

Funny that the first question posed is the one that drove me nuts throughout the whole book. Whywas this called the Constant Gardner? Justin seems well cultivated, like a well tended garden, does he not? Gardens have plots; ergo Justin follows the plotting of each character? Did LeCarre mean garden as in an oasis? As in a sanctuary or perhaps a safe haven? Justin truly seeks refuge and asylum grieving for his beloved Tess as he searches for the truth? I am anxious to read everyones interpretation of that baffling question you've raised Lorrie?

I,too, am still pondering the title and what it refers to. The above are all good ideas...and all fit what I see in the novel.

I thought Sandy was shallow, barely competent, and a wimp.

š...jane›

Francy Lou, we can't have you losing sleep! Hang in there! And Ann, don't worry, we won't be going anywhere. Yes, I think a lot of LeCarre's characters are self-inspired. We all know he is from a family of people involved with the Foreign Office, and it shows in his books.

Jane, didn't you just love the "old boy" description of Sandy that LeCarre writes: "Sandy Woodrow took it like a bullet, jaw rigid, chest out,smack through his divided English heart." Wonderful.

Yes, ALF, I think it has something to do with the fact that Justin himself is an amateur gardener---we may find a clearer meaning to that title as wwe go along.

For those of you unfamiliar with the African country of Kenya, I have a link here from the BBC News with a profile of Kenya, which I will put up into the heading. I have always had a fascination with that country ever since reading about the Mau Mau uprising, and the beginnings of Jomo Kenyatta, who, I believe, was a founder of this new government. Many stories have been written with Kenya as their bases, and Nairobi has almost become a familiar name.

Kenya

Lorrie

hmm gardeners- sew and reap, sew and reap. I see signs of sewing in these early chapters but wonder if there will be any reaping and what will be the crop-

I am new to this genre so must admit the early part of the book I spent a lot of time going back trying to figure out who was who, where were they in a particular moment in time, etc. I think I'm getting the hang of it.

I am also thinking LeCarre is a rather secure writer, he's not rushing at all, the book does not seem like it is in a frenzy to catch and keep our attention. I wonder if this is a particular method that informs a lot of European writing/reading. American authors seem to rush at us rather quickly- ?

Yes, YiLi Lin: I see what you mean. I'm getting the impresssion that LeCarre is telling us this story at a very methodical pace, very progressive, no sense of urgency, as yet anyway!

Did you get the feeling that the two interrogators were not particularly enamored of the responses they got from Sandy Woodrow? What exactly is their particular field? Were they the British equivalent of our FBI? I know they are police,but what branch? All he tells us is "British police."

Lorrie

You know... Gardening = Digging, hummm. Digging up the dirt!

Lorrie: Regarding your posting # 73.

I have a question/comment..maybe it does not even belong in this particular discussion,but your admonitions lead me to ask the question How can you (as a group)possibly discuss a book (any fiction book)in a piecemeal fashion?

I like to look at a piece of fiction in it's totality,since a narrative presumably flows in a logical manner and the themes and the permutations of character often are not revealed until the conclusion,it seems,to me,that a piecemeal discussion is sort of like hop-scotching all over the place.

Please excuse this incursion into your discussion,as I would certainly abide by any guidelines that you would have for any discussion.

Having previously read the book, I now look at the title, "The Constant Gardener", as an allegory.

Yes, one gardens. But when one gardens sedds must be sewn. What are these kernels that are sewn? How and where are they spread? Tendered?Nurtured? How can they be brought to bloom? Is the soil, the climate, the atmoshpere right for these precious seeds to germinate, to grow into a seedling, much less to bud?

Let's read with this in mind.

Meanwhile, on re-reading the opening pages I am struck with the wonderful powers of description and characterization LeCarre has developed. Some of his verbiage is marvellous. I do not believe I have seen this in earlier novels.

Excuse me while I go back to re-reading and enjoying even more the second time!

I have the same problem Moon Dancer has, and for that reason I just Lurk in these books discussions except where we are discussing the whole book.

MOON DANCER:

Don't you think, in most of these discussions, that the way the discussion is scheduled is more a matter of preference? As you said in your post #83 "I like to look at a piece of fiction it its totality".........that is your preference.

From the emails and previous comments made about this schedule, it was obvious that many of our readers had not read the book in its entirety, and it would be frustrating for them to try to make sense of comments about certain scenes in the book they had not yet come to. However, we welcome comments on the book itself as a whole at any time!

Lorrie ______________________________________________________________________

LOUISE thinks the title is connected, as Alf believes, to the fact that gardening itself plays a small part in this story. I believe that we will get more insights into that as we go along. And yes, I am appreciating LeCarre's succinct dialogue even more as we go further.

MARYPAGE: Lurk away to your heart's content! Both you and Moon Dancer are more than welcome, with or without the book!

Lorrie

Digging up the dirt! Great Francy! Justin does just that, as we soon find out. I feel like the author is moving us along at "Justin's " pace; a bit at a time, slow & methodical. He's analytical, logical and very efficient.

Now Woodrow, our diplomat, I do not like ! He's certainly a self-serving, pompous fellow isn't he? Before he imparts the terrible news to Justin about his wife's murder he considers Justin and asks himself "Why am I despising you when I'm about to change your life?" (pg 29) he delivered the death blow and had no option but to observe the effect of his words on Justin's features. He watched Justin's eyes widen in injured disappointment as if he had been hit from behind by a friend (?), then dwindle to almost nothing, as if the same friend had knocked him unconscious." I loved that paragraph and hated Woodrow because of it. He seems to enjoy watching Justin suffer this horror. However, we learn he is terribly smitten with Tessa himself, the cad. One never forgets those horrible moments in life when you've been delivered one of "those blows" and noone ever forgets the bearer of that bad news, does one?

Moon Dancer and MaryP: When I first started discussions online here at SN I too wondered how I would be able to discuss a story where the ending had to remain unspoken. I have found that discussing a few chapters at a time enhances my reading because of all the opposing opinions that are raised by the other readers. That is when the real discussion begins for me. I don't feel it's piecemeal so much as a consolidated, shared reaching toward the end. I, personaly always finish the book before I join in and it has never hampered my confering, parlance or discussing earlier chapters.

We are happy that you are here with us and hope that you will continue to ponder the best way to lead and accompany in a discussion.

Each Online and Offline Bookclubs have different agendas...

The one I belong to at our library meets once a week for perhaps 6 weeks depending on the length of the book... Suggested reading schedules are handed out at the first meeting.. Anyone is welcome to read the entire book, but the leader and her assistant ask that we discuss, question, and research the assigned pages.

But then the group that I read with at church, where we read mostly religious books, discusses what ever issues come to mind... We may dwell on one part for a couple of meetings... Then the leader/pastor makes a suggestion that we go on to another part ... which might be the the ending, or something in the middle. When one member objected, the leader ask for a vote and the motion failed. It should be an agenda that the most members want.

I think most of the leaders in Books have found that a reading schedule and discussion schedule is very adaptable to a group that posts at many different hours; to group who have varied time responsibilities; to group of many different levels of reading and analyzing skills.

We know that life and learning become richer and more meanigful when we move beneath the surface but we live in a system that encourages fragmentation and superficiality.

These discussions in Books and Literature, on seniornet, take a bit of the material at a time, allowing us to transform the read into information and information into knowledge. Knowledge comes about when we can add new material or information to something we already know and enlarge on that knowing. Knowledge, than, can deepen into understanding, which can ripen into wisdom.

As we hear others share their accumulated knowledge we reflect on and think more critically about the material we are studying in light of (our, everymans, those of us discussing the book) in light of our everyday world.

This process helps us integrate our thoughts and feelings. Here, in this discussion, we have a sounding board as we share our self-reflection, as we ask what is the point the author is making in this or that chapter or page or phrase. Than we often ask our ourselves the larger questions. What is the significance of the point as we try to express our less than pat answer emanating from our combined heart and head.

This is a slower process and one that is not centered alone on our critically examining a book as we learned in English Lit 102.

I think for many of us the reason we read in more than examining Plot, Theme, Conflict, Setting, Characterization, Style, Turn of phrase, Symbolism, Imagery, Narration and Point of View.

We read to get to the heart of the matter and amble along the way, spending time in cul-de-sacs of reflection. We share these reflections along with research that enlarge on the themes or characters or settings in the book.

We only pay attention to theme, character, plot, setting etc. so that we can better understand the significance of the point that is being made. So that we can come to terms with the on-going question 'What does it mean to be human,' as an individual and in this society.

I hope you ramble with us and add to our better understanding LeCarré, Africa, corperate behavior, political conflict as it affects the sick. As well as have the opportunity to further your own relationship with the issues raised and how you will respond to the issues, developing a new course of thinking and action.

I have finished the first five chapters. It was not easy. I could not get into this book. I think it is the subject matter that bothers me. I suppose the murder of the young lady is the mystery for the time, but I really cannot get up a lot of interest in it. It seems sordid and a little childish. When I was a teen, I could get all short of breath over a femail that was not approachable, or if approached would probably laugh out loud. However, as I aged, my relationships required not only my interest, but that some interest be returned for them to grow. I felt the passion the hero felt toward the other man's wife was childish and inappropriate--worse still that he intended to act on it.

The elements of prejudice--which exist in many countries with many other nationalities than American--are not a pleasant topic for me. I have seen too much unnecessary pain and suffering to want to examine it more in recreational reading.

To be perfectly honest, I would probably put the book up for grabs on the book exchange after 5 chapters, except I am committed to reading it for this discussion group.

Now lets see what I find in the next group of chapters....

camw

Barbara: Astounding! Of all of the quotes and paraphrases I have read in reference to our discussions that is by far the most inclusive. I love this:
"We know that life and learning become richer and more meanigful when we move beneath the surface but we live in a system that encourages fragmentation and superficiality. "

So much in life is without depth and detail, isn't it? What a wonderful forum we are offered here in our discussions, that allow us to penetrate the core of any issue of our choosing, with shared intellect and keen thoughts. You said it perfectly here: "We read to get to the heart of the matter and amble along the way, spending time in cul-de-sacs of reflection." Thank you for that wonderful testimonial to what we are all about. Each one of you add tremendously to each discussion.

Camw: Bless your heart, you don't like the book. I understand how difficult it is to wade thru a novel you don't enjoy --but don't give up on us yet. I see this story more about monetary profits, greed and corporate manipulation that I do a racial or "prejudicial" theme. If these Kenyans had the $$$ this story would have a different plot. It's a Jerry McGuire theme all of the way "Show me the Money!"

Men have been breathing all over unapproachable females for centuries, so that is not a new theme there. Woodrow, that pig announced that Tessa had been "with" Blum for four days and nights before the murder. One thing I did not understand here is HOW did Gloria, the exemplary foreign service wife , determine that W. was indeed in love with Tessa. Talk about superficial -- this beauty falls arse over tea kettle for Justin as she realizes he "was as much a victim of this tragedy as Tessa was, because Tessa was dead while J had been lumbered with a grief he would have to cart with him to his grave." They are superficial and I think that is intentional on the authors part. They perform perfectly, as expected!!

Camw: I can easily see what you mean by not becoming too engrossed in the first five chapters, but hang in there, kid! Actually, the murder of Tess is simply a springboard from which the rest of the plot takes off, and the story line becomes more interesting as you go along. In the meantime, just enjoy the way LeCarre describes his characters, and see if there isn't at least one person you come to about whom you'd like to know more.

Alf, you too noted that elegant turn of phrase that Barbara posted, "We read to get to the heart of the matter and amble along the way, spending time in cul-de-sacs of reflection." Great!

I'm still confused about those too-efficient policepersons. Were they British homicide detectives, African/English local authorities, Special Branch? What's your take?

Lorrie

Lorrie...I somehow thought they were there to deal with the British consulate people, etc. Crimes committed to /about/on these folks would be treated as if they'd occurred in England...and so handled by these police? I don't know that that's the way that works though...the diplomatic immunity thing? If Tessa had been murdered at the Consulate, it'd have made more sense. If Tessa is murdered elsewhere and perhaps by a Kenyan....then why would the British police be involved. Since her murder happened far from what I'd call "British territory"...ie, the consulate and compound where some of these folks lived...I was never straight on their involvement.

š...jane›

Jane, I do believe you’re right. The police people must have been affiliated with The Britiish high Commission.—they “took their instructions from the Yard.” (Page 83)

I found the interrogation between Woodward and the police very interesting. That continuous sparring, and the way Woodward danced around the truth, trying not to show his obsession with the dead woman.

And wasn’t that a devastating statement that Rob made after they showed Woodward they knew he was lying? (Page 97)

For a while the only sounds in the room came from passing footsteps in the corridor, and cars racing and fighting in the town across the valley. Rob reached out a gangly arm and switched off the recorder.
“As you pointed out, sir, we’re all short of time,” he said courteously. “So kindly don’t f-----g waste it by dodging questions, and treating us like shit.” He switched the recorder back on. “Be so good as to tell us in your own words about the dying woman in the ward and her little baby boy, Mr. Woodward, sir,” he said. “Please.”.

Lorrie

I’ve been sorta lurking here; reading with interest and enjoyin the good post you all have been making. I fear I won’t be able to contribute as much as I’d like to this discussion because I always wait for books to come out in paper back. I donate my books to either our township library or a nursing home for the aged.

However, this type of discussion would be right up my alley. You see, I read a book slowly. Not because I have difficulty reading. No. I have taken classes in speed reading--not recommended for good books, but it does come in handy when reading the newspaper, or a not so good novel. I take my time reading a good novel, trying to fathom each character and completely discerning the plot. I’ll go back and reread interesting or complex parts of the story so that I fully understand each of what I have mentioned. This is particularly true of Le Carre’s works, which I do enjoy. When reading his novels, one dares not allow his/her mind to wander or day-dream ever, else one might find his/her self in a maze of misunderstanding because of Le Carre’s many characters and subplots. Another author I find this to be true of is Gresham.

I honestly believe a discussion of this sort allows the reader to more fully understand the story because of questions asked of and questions answered by other readers. This also gives a spirit of comradeship that carries over into future discussions, making participation much, by the reader(s), more likely. We must do this story again when the paper back is released.)

Bill H

Cam I too had difficulty in the beginning- this is so not like most of the genre novels i've read, but allof a sudden the bits and pieces begin to make sense and there really is a good plot. That's why I must agree withthe read a little at a time philosophy here- makes one really think about the read.

Also what i've like about discussing books in smaller chunks if for those of us who have not read ahead, how we suppose next steps, plots and twists of character often to be surprised or right on target.

and with all this intrigue coming from members of the Royal "foreign service" makes one pause and rethink the undercover and/or over the mark activities of a number of benign agencies in western nations. hmm Air America ?

Oh and with at least one other person agreeing with my sewing and reaping line of thinking- I wonder if Justin 'gardened' Tessa- her youth, his maturity, sewing seed as a new way of speaking mentor?

Bill, it's nice to hear from you, and YiLiLin, you too!

"Intrigue," yes, that's the word. I have a premonition that we will be hearing a lot more from the contingent of "spies" that LeCarre has already introduced us to, like the gangly Tim Donahue, whose description runs almost to the bizarre.

Sunken, colorless cheeks. Nests of crumbling skin below the drooping yellowed eyes. The straggling mustache clawed downward in comic despair.

Does anyone here see a correlation between this section of the Foreign Office and our own CIA?

Lorrie

Finally caught up and I think Bill really put his finger on it:

When reading his novels, one dares not allow his/her mind to wander or day-dream ever, else one might find his/her self in a maze of misunderstanding because of Le Carre’s many characters and subplots...

So true so true. I find my own mind wandering because of the style of the author, but then I come up short realizing I missed something deliberately planted and I have to reread it: it's true LeCarre.

I don't know anything about our CIA, but I agree with Lorrie, I think the reader is in constant suspence and surprise, the effect is one of shock after shock, but it very effectively throws you right into the story as a participant as you're being shocked right along with. It's a very clever way of allowing the reader to participate in the events.

Am I the only one this reminds of The General's Daughter? Very similar in plot, promiscous beautiful young woman found dead?

The amazing thing is the relevance of it to what's happening TODAY. The new issue of Time Magazine, (the one with Phobias on the cover), I was shocked to see, has a huge article on the Leakeys, with their new astounding discovery...where? Why in Lake Turkana, of course?

Who ever heard of Lake Turkana before this thing?

It's amazing to read something and open a magazine and see the same people mentioned. It's amazing how au courant we actually are here, in the Books and Lit.

I'd like to hear from people who have been to Africa recently. I know that the situation there is awful and here LeCarre takes us within the compounds.

I was a bit turned off, like Camw, by the details, especially after Sunday night's Sopranos, and profligate nature of dear Tessa, but knowing LeCarre there is a lot more to come here. The images are pretty shocking, as well. But again, knowing LeCarre, there is a reason.

I was interested in all of your ideas on "Gardening," and was struck myself by the many mentions of BEES. Bees on the cover, it's amazing how many times they come up in the text (just the little nit picking things I watch for....) I wonder if there's a reason later on??

But like Lorrie I was totally confused over the interrogators, and have no earthly idea what caused this disgusted remark, "People like you should be stopped, Mr. Woodrow...You think you're solving the world's problems, but actually you're the problem." (page 112).

Now I don't see anything prior to that to cause this outburst, do you? I don't understand the hostile and actually confrontational nature of these two people, Rob and Leslie, why is he talking to them at all?

Would you say this is primarily a mystery? Mysteries are the most difficult things of all to try to discuss, I think, but you can't miss the little bits and pieces of LeCarre philosophy strewn in like flowers in a garden, and very carefully "planted," if you'll pardon the pun.

More....

Thinking over Louise's allegory, Le Carre has identified Justin as a gardener. Does the character of Jusin ring true to you all? Do you feel you understand him?

It took ME to page 36 to realize Tessa was his wife!!!

Some wonderful throwaway philosophical lines in this thing, "He overflies your territory and intercepts your signals before you make them..." (page 18).... Do you know anybody like that? It's unnerving, isn't it? To be seen thru so easily?

Remember Caesar and Cassius? He had the same feeling. "He reads much, he is a great observer, and he looks right thru the deeds of men, " Shakespeare has him say.

Why did Woodrow think, "I'm in prison already he thought. My life sentence started five minutes ago..." (page 21)....

Le Carre uses a lot of foreshadowing, letting us know that something is coming that the characters are aware of, and we aren't.

How about this one..."as long as you prefer tone to substance..." (on page 27...little throw away sentiments creeping out.

Here's another foreshadowing: "But the press had a far more lethal shot in its locker which Gloria at her most pessimistic could not have forseen." (page 66) Neither can the reader, the reader is not a mind reader but that tells us something is coming, what do you think of this technique, at all?

I'm not sure how Tessa is presented here, whether to admire her or not. I do see the dedication of the book: "For Yvette Pierpaoli, who lived and died giving a damn," and so I would presume we are to admire her, so far she does seem a bit.....well, whose baby was it she had and lost, was that ever mentioned???? Dr. Bluhm's? What's all this about the dying mother and the men in white coats?

The interrogators seem to be implying something big is going on, and why did Woodrow blanch when he met the doctor in the hall?

Mysteries abound in this thing.

ginny

Ah-ha our Ginny has arrived. Allow me to quote something that I recently read by Ralph Waldo Emerson. He said, "Nothing great was ever accomplished without enthusiasm." Now, that would be Ginny, our enthusiastic soul of B & Lit. You bring up many interesting points and I would like to respond post gymnasium this AM.

Ms Huff and puff

Wonderful posts, Ginny!

In this book there has been a lot of mention of Richard Leakey, the son of the famous paentologists (sp?) to whose site Tess and the doctor had possibly been headed. I've been doing a lot of reading about Leakey, and it appears that, even though he was appointed in Kenya to help rid the government of corruption, he left under a sort of cloud. Here's an excerpt from the BBC Online:

"The government in Kenya says the head of the country's civil service, Richard Leakey, has resigned after completing his task of launching efficiency reforms. "President [Daniel Arap] Moi said that he had agreed with Dr Leakey, 56, that he stand down," an official statement said.

Mr Leakey was appointed to the position of head of the Kenyan civil service amid much fanfare one and a half years ago.

He took charge of a so-called dream team of civil servants, mainly from the private sector, with a brief to root out those responsible for corruption and inefficiency and to restore credibility to the Kenyan administration.

His appointment was seen as a signal to the International Monetary Fund and other donors who had suspended aid because of the levels of corruption. President Moi wanted to show he was serious about cleaning Kenya up.

The man who outside Kenya is principally known as the member of a world-famous family of paleontologists was considered the figure to woo the international donors back.

Controversial

Mr Leakey enjoyed a certain amount of success, but he had started to come under strong attack from politicians who accused him in newspaper articles of arrogance and an autocratic style and of personally earning too much money.

Close colleagues noted that his relationship with President Moi appeared to have deteriorated.

But some political commentators wondered whether Mr Leakey was treading on too many important toes and whether he was carrying out his brief rather too diligently.

Now with his departure, many analysts are asking whether Mr Leakey jumped or whether he was pushed.

As for the international donors, the IMF and World Bank did resume lending last year, but funding was recently put on hold again because of what the IMF has described as serious setbacks in the fight against corruption.

Mr Leakey has been replaced by former ambassador to Britain and permanent secretary to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Sally Kosgei."

Aha! As some famous person once said, "The plot thickens." In this story, I think we are going to see a lot of wheels within wheels, don't you? _____________________________________________________________________ Alf, and everybody: what was your opinion of Woodward's wife, Gloria? I couldn't make up my mind if she was simply an air-head, or perhaps a decent, kind-hearted woman with an unfortunate choice of a husband, who was secretly enamored of her house-guest Justin?

Lorrie

What was the date of that Leakey article, Lorrie? The new Time has his....son and daughter in law making that astounding discovery about the missing link head?

ginny

I couldn't quite figure out the date of that particular issue, Ginny, but maybe you can. Here is the URL:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_1252000/1252012.stm

Darn, I can't seem to link this URL, sorry!

Was Time talking about a recent find?

Okay, I see it, it's dated March 31, 2001.

You know, this is interesting! Isn't it funny what you discover when you go looking for something?

In TCG, LeClarre mentions Richard Leakey quite often, and usually in a respectful manner, but some of the recent news articles about this man's resignation from the Kenyan government are frankly questioning as to Leakey's motives.

But aside from that, this last find from Kenya of the humanoid head was made by Richard Leakey's daughter, Louise, 29, who is working for her doctorate to follow in the footsteps of her illustrious grandparents Louis and Mary Leakey. Louise was also working alongside her mother, Maeve, when the find was announced. This is quite a family!

Lorrie

LeCarre, in the Author's Notes at the end of the book states that with one exception (would that be Leaky I wonder?) nobody, outfit or corporation is based on an actual person.

In answer to Lorrie's question, I see Gloria as a typical diplomat's wife. She is keenly in tune to the social gatherings and status of everyone around her. (which is duly reported to Elena). With practicality and precision she is able to perform her duties, in an exemplary fashion. She is always prepared, ever-ready to ascend that ladder and extremly capable. Haven't we all met a lady such as she? Accessible, entertaining, polished and oozing with confection? (Oh my mama would have given her eye teeth for a daughter such as she.) Underneath, we get a glimpse of the real Gloria. quite Is this an illusion?She makes Woodrow look good, doesn't she? If she's such a happy , devoted wife, why does she become quite smitten with Justin?

This article reminded me of a lecture I saw about 20 years ago from a doctor that went to Africa to give measles shots and used the same needle on everyone because needles were to expensive (but the had a Landrover - don't remember the cost back then).

WHO and UNICEF joining to:

...assist countries with their efforts, WHO and UNICEF will help provide a first dose of measles vaccine to all infants, guarantee a second opportunity for vaccination, establish an effective monitoring system and "improve the management of complicated measles cases, including vitamin A supplementation."

Just picked up Audiobook and reading the back short synopsis, Justin is described as an amateur gardener. I'ver never used an Audiobook before but now that I have a tape deck in my car I can listen and drive.....I think. If you don't hear from me anymore, you will know that I listened more than I drove. Reason for Audio is because I've had no luck with the Library and the book store did not have the book. At least the Audio will fill me in while waiting for a call from the library. Meanwhile I shall follow your postings. Clare

Good luck Clare. It couldn't be any worse than the "cell Phone" users. I like audiotapes for the car when I'm alone. We'll be waiting for you to check in.

EADEC, the consultative body , (acronmym for East African Donor's Effectiveness Committee) addresses and collates the information regarding how much money and to whom the donorfinaanced contributions are dispersed to. Is there such an organization in Africa that studies and makes these type of recommendations? LeCarre says some believe the UN already does that. Does anyone know the answer to this? I truly do not and wondered about it.

Another great quote from these early chapters is "Who are any of us?" Would you be able , under interrogation ,to describe a colleague or cohort? How would you fare under the same forced characterization, attested to by an associate?

The lecture I was talking about was given by one of the doctors who went to Africa to give the Measels shots and Vit. A. They wanted donations. This was 20 years ago... but I think he got donations for meds, etc. and went over and donated his time.

I was not under the impression that the Goverment had anything to do with the "operation".

But I also did not ask... or even think about the Goverment.

I have read a great deal about Louis and Mary Leakey's discoveries in the field of paleontology and anthropology. Their work at Olduvai Gorge was groundbreaking. That their grandaughter continues in her grandmother's footsteps is wonderful. (Mary made the main discoveries at Olduvai while Louis toured the U.S. speaking and raising funds.)

There has been some stigma attached to Louis and his work. I do hope that Richard maintains the brilliant family name without scandal.Their work should stand on its own.

To me it is symbolic that Tessa and Blume were on their way to visit the Leakey encampment when the tragedy struck. Were they just curious or delving deeper, looking for roots?

At this point Tessa is an enigmatic, etherial creature. On what are her ideas/ideals and motivation based? Why did she seek the support of Sandy? What is her relationship to Blume? And most of all why does it not seem to concern Justin?

By the way, is Justing the "Constant Gardener"?

Louise, from the little so far that we have learned about Justin's wife Tessa, I'm starting to wonder if she isn't really too good to be true. This apparent selfless devotion to the cause of the underdog may just pall in time, I certainly hope this woman is not going to turn out to be absolutely perfect! God forbid!

These are some very droll comments made by our author, John LeClarre, about himself, and I think they will amuse you:

LECARRE BREAKS HIS SILENCE
Let me tell you a few things about myself. Not much, but enough. In the old days it was convenient to bill me as a spy turned writer. I was nothing of the kind. I am a writer who, when I was very young, spent a few ineffectual but extremely formative years in British Intelligence. I never knew my mother till I was 21. I act like a gent but I am wonderfully badly born. My father was a confidence trickster and a gaol bird. Read A Perfect Spy.
I hate the telephone. I can't type. Like the tailor in my new novel, I ply my trade by hand. I live on a Cornish cliff and hate cities. Three days and nights in a city are about my maximum. I don't see many people. I write and walk and swim and drink. Apart from spying, I have in my time sold bathtowels, got divorced, washed elephants, run away from school, decimated a flock of Welsh sheep with a twenty-five pound shell because I was too stupid to understand the gunnery officer's instructions, taught children in a special school.
I have four sons and ten grandchildren. It is well over thirty years since I hung up my cloak and dagger. I wrote my first three books while I was a spook; I wrote the next thirteen after I was at large. A good writer is an expert on nothing except himself. And on that subject, if he is wise, he holds his tongue. Some of you may wonder why I am reluctant to submit to interviews on television and radio and in the press.
The answer is that nothing that I write is authentic. It is the stuff of dreams, not reality. Yet I am treated by the media as though I wrote espionage handbooks. I am regarded as a sage on every spy case from the double-agent Judas to your wretched Mr. Aldrich Ames. And to a point I am flattered that my fabulations are taken so seriously. Yet I also despise myself in the fake role of guru, since it bears no relation to who I am or what I do. Artists, in my experience, have very little center. They fake. They are not the real thing. They are spies. I am no exception.

(Taken from remarks made by John le Carréé to the Knopf Sales Force August 12, 1996.)

Lorrie

Lorrie -

Thanks for sharing the LeCarre interview. It is as charming as some of his characters. And what a charcter he is! In retrospect it adds a bit of spice and understanding to his fiction.

Regardless the unfolding plot- don't all these people seem a "tad" angry- the men don't seem to like their wives, the wives sure don't like their husbands, not sure if anyone likes The CROWN, and no one seems to think much of Africa, its people or the gov. in Kenya- shoot and I thought the folk on my job were a cranky lot!

I am quite impressed with Justin! Lesli seems great too... Rob needs some anger control classes, lol.

There was an article in our local newspaper about a massive effort to combat African AIDS. Quote: U.N. Agencies working with private foundations and governments,have embarked on an unprecedented effort to generate billions of dollars and politcal support for a massive program to combat AIDS in Africa. The plan aims to raise about 6 billion a year from industrialized nations, including 2 billion a year from the USA. Half the money would be used to get AIDS medication and the other half would go to HIV preventative programs. Among the donors would be the Rockefeller Foundation and the Bill and Melinda Foundation. Africa has more than 70% of the Worlds HIV cases.It would be the biggest campaign waged against a single disease, surpassing the efforts to wipe smallpox during the 1970s and polio virus during the 1980s and 1990s. In addition to AIDS, the plan aims to improve treatment for TB and malaria.The prgram would be monitored as world health officials hope to implement a system of direct-0bserved therapy, in which volunteers go into people's homes and observe them taking their medicines.....Hey, they could have used Tassa. Did anyone see the article. Andy, does this answer your question about the UN involvement in Africa.

Yes maam, it sure does. First of all how in the world would they get people to comply? It's difficult enough to stand right there and encourage people to take medication if they don't understand it. How would they find someone to do this task. I've done home health care nursing for the poor in South Carolina, and let me tell you- if they don't want to take meds, they don't take them. There is no way to persuade them it is for their own benefit. In Africa, a country ravaged by devastating diseases, do you think you'd be able to tell a mother she had to take her Rifampin or whatever drug to help cure her TB as her child lays dying of AIDS? Dream on. It's bogus and the government knows it.

The way that Rob and Leslie talk to Sandy when the taperecorder is off makes it seem as if they know a lot about him...and none of it is good. Would Rob be so frank, off the taperecorder, if they had any respect for the man at all? Have they had contact with him before...or have they heard about him or ??? I seem to have missed any references to any prior familiarity with Woodrow.

Gloria? Hmmm...she seems to be a "fit" for Sandy...shallow, perhaps brighter, but a social climber of the First Order...or whatever one would call someone who aspires to be ..what...the Ambassador's Wife...to Kenya now...but to some wonderful spot elsewhere ...what is considered the "top" Ambassador's job??? Paris? Rome? Washington, DC? or??

š...jane›

The novel pictures the last vestiges of Colonial England, and really shows us why the British Empire failed. The inward aspect of what's good for the Mother Country. The inner circle and it's preoccupation with status. (i.e. Gloria) The social and polital milieu is so alien to us in the U.S. Or is it? We say it is. Yet, there is the climbing of the ladder, the country club and Who's WHo.

But now we meet the true free spirit of Tessa. Her concerns with those outside this, her own special circle. Justin doesn't seemed too taken in by it either, even though he is part and parcel of the "High Commission".

I am always amazed at those who take on the mantel of "self-importance." Sandy, the twit, is the personification of this. Aren't we all important? Don't we all have special talents, interests and goals?

I do like the portrayal of Ghita. One who's out of the loop, trying to join in, and yet will not for-go her principals to become part of the group.

The English Establishment seems so removed from the setting of the novel. They appear so unaware of the tremendous problems that surround them. If this is a true potrayal, which I am prone to believe it is, then we should no longer wonder why poverty, illiteracy and disease followed in the wake of colonialism.

Just my opinion....

It seems like the "British Empire"/"High Commission"/"Mother County" is only aware of their own. They do not see anything else. Or maybe they don't want to.

Jane, I think those two interrogators, Rob and Lesley, know a great deal more about Sandy than they are telling him. I was impressed by the utter putdown when they finally accused him of lying. I don't think he's the sort of man to forget this humiliation, if they are heard from again.

Louise, do you think the fact that some of these characters are only half-English, or not at all has anything to do with it? Tessa is half Italian, Ghia is Indian, Justin is the only full-blooded Brit who seems to see the unColonialism part of it?

Francy Lou, I think one of the things that discouraged LeCarre a great deal after the demise of the Cold War and the beginnings of capitalism all over the place, was the failure of corporate Europe and the USA to concentrate on what is badly needed in Third World Countries, and their lack of motivation.

He often criticized the spy masters for their inability to predict popular sentiment and he lambasted the West for its failure to see that the end of the Cold War was not simply about crushing communism but about our (still unaccomplished) need to re-think capitalism. In part, The Constant Gardener explores whether commerce in the developing world is a sin. But Le Carre's sympathies do not stop him from taking a potshot or two at do-gooders who inject themselves passionately into causes only to find themselves simply seduced by the adrenalin, adventure and escapism instead.

LeCarre is often accused by his critics on the right (ironically we tend to think that spies must be right wing) of naiveté. It's true, he still wrestles with the most basic moral dilemmas -- can evil behaviour be justified in the pursuit of good? Can our spies be good guys, when theirs are bad? All these arguments could well be applied to our CIA, as well.

Lorrie

I am a first time reader for LeCarre. Am also having a little trouble 'getting into' the book, but do appreciate the slow read-there is so much to take in. Have been lurking, reading all the posts and they do help me really appreciate this author.

I do not like Sandy-he seems to be the 'typical' English twit! I think that Justin is the gardner-he seems to have the patience and durability of the true gardner. I believe that he was nurturing Tessa and really recognizes the 'weed', Sandy. I liked the two interrogators-I enjoyed them putting Sandy in his place, not being cowed by his title and their persistance. I too, want to know who they have been talking too. More to come, for sure!

I have mixed feelings about Tessa. I admired her spirit and willingness to try to right injustices. I did not like her 'cheating' on Justin-I like him-sort of grieve for him. He seemed to understand her, though.

I am fascinated with the subject matter. AIDS has played a very large part in the life of someone I love-my own private miracle! Would love to see a cure for all the world-wouldn't we all? Do we pronounce Bluhm as Bloom? More gardening involving Justin?

When Rob and Lesley interrogated Woodrow and called him sir " it advised him that these two junior plice officers were not his colleagurd, nor his friends, but lower class outsiders poking their noses into the exclusive club that had given him standing and protection for seventeen years." What a snob this guy is. I hate the following questions that follow and his answers re. Tessa that were puposely misleading. Wilan, I don't think that tessa DID have an adulterous affair with the African folk hero, Bluhm. It was inferred but that was only an allegation on the part of the "higer ups." Woodrow did nothing to dissuade these rumors as he continued to fan the embers of deceit. He continued to see himself as a type of computer, assembling, deciphering and retrieving data thrown at him by the interrogators. I don't think you missed the reference Jane, of any previous familiarity with the officers. I don't think it was there. It was a presumption, I felt, on ther part. Can't you just feel their anger as Yilin mentioned? Don't you think it was the good cop/bad cop routine though?

Louise tells us: "I am always amazed at those who take on the mantel of "self-importance." Sandy, the twit, is the personification of this. Aren't we all important? Don't we all have special talents, interests and goals?" Great point Louise and my answer is yes!! We do all bring something specific and special. People such as Sandy Woodrow have one focus and that is themself! He was so paranoid, threatened that someone might find the letter he wrote to Tessa, in Her majesty's envelope that he personally sealed with "a whisky-flavored"tongue. He screwed up, throew caution to wind "ignored all his sensible internal voices" and had it hand delivered. I loved it!

I agree, I don't think Tessa had an affair with either Sandy or Bluhm... Sandy is so full of himself, he thought she was interested... it was all in his head (including the nekked part). Justin said she liked to shock people... being seen with Bluhm, and staying in the same room with him would be very shocking to people.

I'm still lurking. I've got to give this book more thought. I'm not too sure of Justin. He seems too cool.....Problem with the audio version is that you don't know what chapter you are on. So Andy just so you know I'm here....... somewhere. Clare

WILAN! WELCOME!

If this is your first time reading of a LeCarre book, I'll bet you'll be reading more of this author after this one. His books are consistaently good, I think.

"English Twit!" I like that phrase, and yes, it does seem to fit Sandy, doesn't it? What a snob, among other things, as ALF has said. Everybody so far seems to like the two interrogators, Rob and Lesley, and I have a strong premonition that we will be hearing more from them later.

Wilan, just from what I've read so far, and from what the blurbs had to say about this book, I believe the emphasis that the author used here is on Tuberculosis, the "White Plague," as it is called there, although Aids is mentioned quite frequently, and we all know the devastating facts of that disease over in Africa. There has been much written about this in the past few weeks, and we will be linking up to African newspaper reports on this subject.

FrancyLou, I don't really think Tessa was having an affair with Bluhme, although so far what is given us is pretty ambiguous, isn't it? Personally, I'm a bit afraid that I'll get a sort of fed up with the "too-perfect" ? Tessa. Who knows? I like Justin, with his quiet ways and what is turning out to be genuine grief over his murdered wife. Wasn't it awful the way Sandy broke the news to him that Tessa had been raped, and that there was conjecture that it had been consensual?(page 113) What a horrible way to break that news to a grieving husband, and why tell him that, at all?

Hang in there, CMac! Just listen in.

Lorrie

Sandy is mean spirted...
If you have someone holding a knife at your thoat I think you would be consensual...

I think Sandy was rather obsessed with Tessa, and she didn't give him the time of day, so to speak. I'm sure she was polite where that was required, but she sure didn't do/say anything to give him any indication she was interested in him...although his imagination/ego? tried to make things out of nothing, in my view. So, to get "revenge"/??? for Justin having Tessa and Sandy not, Sandy somehow needs to "hurt" Justin for having won Tessa...and that's by the details of her demise.

I'm not overly taken with Justin, though. He, too, seems rather stuffy and aloof/detached. I wonder what attracted Tessa to him.

š...jane›

I think it was all fantasy on Sandy's part.

And Sandy is to me the true English/British snob... and Gloria makes an excellent mate... of the same ilk.

Well said. What do you think about Tessas running all over the damned place without J. even knowing where she was most of the time? Isn't that a bit odd, irrregardless of how consumed he was with his British affairs and his gardening tasks! I can't even get to the bathroom without someone wanting to know where I have gone.

I wonder if perhaps one of the "rules" for having Tessa was that she needed the freedom to pursue her own interests and her own "causes." It seems that "doing lunch" and gossip with the likes of Gloria and Elena would not have been of much interest to Tessa. I wonder, too, if given the "attitude" of the High Commission that Justin found it convenient "not to know too much" about whatever it was that Tessa was up to.

š...jane›

Oh, Francy, what a really sardonic quip! Very good!

Jane, I think you have it pretty well thought out about why Sandy took pleasure in actual hurting Justin, out of frustration of not getting anywhere with Tessa. The only time she actually gave him any time was when she wanted him to help her with her reports. I too think that the question of Tessa's freedom to come and go as she pleased was settled long before they married, and from what i can see of their relationship, though it appears odd, they seem to have made some kind of agreement. More about this later, I'm sure.

Alf, I confess I've been peeking ahead and I can't help but tell everyone that there are real surprises in store!!

Lorrie

On looking around at all our avid readers here, I seem to see some missing names. Where are you, Louweave, Hairy, CamW, carrollee, yili Lin, and Louise?

Have you all read the book already? That's okay, we'd still like to hear from you!

Lorrie

Lorrie - Look back a bit.I've been posting as we go. I was the one who called Sandy A "twit." And I stand by that statement!!

Yes, I agree, Tessa had committed her energies to her special causes. She was not a lady who lunched but who launched. She wasn't "too perfect" she was too real. She saw the truth of the greater envionment that surrounded her. She took up the cudgels to right the wrongs. This was with Justin's complete blessing. Justin is one of those people who skate along accepting what is, unquestioning, requiring nothing but status quo.

I'm still lurking as my cassette player is dead and it is too late to ride around in my car. Oh well, that is the story of my life. I'm the one who: When my ship comes in I will be at the airport. I shall listen in tonight maybe I can catch up that way. I'm still trying to put two and two together to make three....The Gardener is Jason and as some one mentioned Dr Bluhme could be the Bloom and maybe I'm way off but there has to be a connection. Give me time I'll think of something......or maybe I've been reading too many mysteries. Yipes!

Sorry, Louise Licht. Of course I've been following your great posts. I meant Louise W, who posted at the beginning.

CMac, don't give up hope! It's always darkest before the dawn! (Don't you hate people who come out with these darn cliches?)

ALF and I were thinking we could get right on to the next phase of the book. I know it's a cople days soon, but I think we've covered these first five chapters pretty thoroughly. Let's go on up to and including Chapter 11, Okay?

Oh oh. We're having thunderstorms here, and if you're like me you'd want to get off this computer right now!

Lorrie

I am still lurking. Never a day goes by that I am not checking my subscriptions here on Seniornet, just as regularly as I check my mail.

I know I have had this book before but still waiting for clues to hit me to refresh my memory. Perhaps I took it back to Library unread? Would not be the first time...So I had better keep quiet till I can get it again, betcha I will read it next time, huh? For now, no comments, still enjoy all the posts, however. Keep up the good work. Lou

louweve Perhaps as we go along your memory will be jogged. We are happy that you are here with us anyway.

Tessa was buried "shoulder to shoulder" next to her infant son and a little African boy, as Justin sought out his own bit of space, apart the other mourners. He seemed to be taking leave not just of Tessa but of his career, of Nairobi, of his stillborn son and of his entire life till now. Ah! Here begins the emergence of the real Justin!!!

If you don't detest the Woodrow's yet, their display of self-importance and narcissism at Tessa's grave will do it for you. Louise L. is right-- a twit is minor name calling to what I've been thinking.

I am beginning to get a strong premonition about the surprises ahead. I now agree, I do not think Tessa had an affair with Arnold. I was confused about the stillborn baby. I thought someplace in the book it was said that the baby that died was black. I must have confused him with the baby that Tessa was nursing. (Wanza's baby) I now believe the stillborn baby was Justin's son. I weep for Justin's grief and his typical stoic behavior. I think that he HAD to let Tessa have her head-that he believed all along that he was not enough for her. Besides, down deep, he felt that she was right and loved and admired her for her beliefs. The mystery deepens-the three Bees?, Justin's faith in Tessa?, Sandy and his nastiness?, where is Arnold?-I do not believe he is dead and do not believe that he murdered Tessa-does anyone? Reaching 'the can't put down' stage! This John LeCarre certainly brings these people alive. I loved his interview-he reminds me in a lot of ways of Stephen King. His genre is different, but his belief in what he does is about the same-to me. Yes, I will certainly read more of his books-I have already made a list of them!

Hooray, we have wilan's attention with LeCarres wily words enticing us to move along. The Three B's are introduced here as Justin is "held" by the poster and he begins one of his many coversations with his beloved Tessa.

"Justin, look. They've highjacked our bloody bees! Somebody thinks he's Napoleon!"

What do we make of this? Napoleon's 3 B'S, the symbol of his glory and the treasured emblems of Tessa's beloved island of Elba deported to Kenya?

"Justin could only marvel at the obscenity of life's coincidences."

I found this about the Bees and Elba...and the flag information:

Elba, Napoleon and the Bees

And then this:

During the five-day voyage, Napoleon passed the time by designing a new flag for his kingdom. It was white with a red diagonal and, on the diagonal, three golden bees, and it was intended to recall the arms of the de' Medici, which had a red bar on a silver ground, while the bees were his own imperial emblem.
SOURCE: ELBA & THE TUSCAN ARCHIPELAGO
Napoleon and Elba
By Christopher & Jean Serpell

š...jane›

Way back to Louise's comment about the wake of colonialism- I heartily agree - not just English colonialism, any dominant power, Spain, France, USA who invades a society and subjugates that society through economic dependence leaves a wake of destruction. AIDS in Africa reminds me of the Smallpox and Syphilis decimation of the native peoples here in America. Only difference this time around, the invading nations get to make a pot of $ in an effort to control the disease and, of course, in post modern society we blame the victims.

and the question was raised about the moral dilemma of evil behaviors in the pursuit of good- to me, the pursuit is just an excuse for the behavior. One would not pursue good, good is, or more simply what is, is. Our behavior is who we are, and who we are makes choices about responding to the outer world. Tessa made a choice and so is Justin, Justin also a product of the High Commission. Sometimes the moral dilemma is making the choice that reflects who we are- mostly those choices take courage.

What I find interesting in this novel is the overriding metaphor of good/bad- Tessa is 'good' she's dead

Excellent point Yili and I agrre that Justin is on the verge of making just such a choice.

Jane, I will take a while to read and reflect but I shall return. Thank you for the link. I had the feeling throughout this read that the 3 Bs symbol was more than met the eye. It was like LeCarre didn't have the time to go into it in depth.

Wilan, I'm so glad you joined our group here. You're asking the same questions I was asking as I read further into the book.

Thanks, Jane. I knew Tessa was from Elba, but I wondered where Napoleon came into it. That's a fascinating note about the bees, isn't it?

YiliLin has hit on the very metaphor that so many reviewers of the book have mentioned: The quest for "good" (first Tessa, then Justin)against the presence of "evil". The "Three Bees" corporation and all it entails that is so repugnant to Tessa.

*********************************************************************

At the cemetery, what significance do you attach to the presence of the boy, Kioko?

Does Woodrow’s (surprising) grief at Tessa’s passing seem to you genuine? Or merely perfunctory?

Why do you think Justin hastens his departure from Kenya so abruptly? Do you have an idea now of the purpose of his upcoming journey?

********************************************************************

This author’s description of the cemetery and surroundings is really quite succinct. As LeCarre tells us: (page 116) “Langata graveyard stands on a lush plateau of tall grass and red mud, and flowering ornamental trees, both sad and joyful, a couple of miles from the town center and just a short step from Kibera, one of Nairobi’s largest slums, a vast brown smear of smoking tin houses overhung with a sickly pall of African dust, crammed into the Nairobi river valley without a hand’s width between them. The population of Kibera is half a million and rising, and the valley is rich in deposits of sewage, plastic bags, colorful strands of old clothing, bananas and orange peel, corn cobs and anything else the city cares to dump in it.”

*****************************************************************************

I like the way Justin handled himself at his wife’s funeral. Keeping his distance from the others, he seemed , in a way, to be saying goodbye.

“He seemed to be taking leave not just of Tessa, but of his career, of Nairobi, of his stillborn son, and of his entire life until now.” (Page 116)

I was very touched by the mention of the yellow freesias that Justin wanted so badly for his wife’s coffin, and almost wept when Mustafa arrived at the back door with a basket of yellow freesias that he had picked on his own initiative.

Lorrie

I am in trouble, I can not put it down now... I have gone way past where we are suppose to be, lol/bad girl!

Lorrie, you wrote: "English Twit!" I like that phrase, and yes, it does seem to fit Sandy, doesn't it? What a snob, among other things, as ALF has said. Everybody so far seems to like the two interrogators, Rob and Lesley, and I have a strong premonition that we will be hearing more from them later.

I am not everybody. I do not dislike Sandy. I see him as a middle level beaurocrat in a dead-end job whose status is all in his (Sandy's) mind. But to me he is harmless.

On the other hand I see the interrogators as having an axe to grind and throwing their weight around because they can. I am one who does not like them. I really don't yet see what they are driving at or where they want to go. However their interrogation seems to have a destination they are going to reach in spite of any facts.

We'll see where all this goes.

camw

I thought it interesting that Justin doesn't seem to like/trust either Sandy or Gloria. He seems to be very aware of her many attempts to eavesdrop on his phone calls, visits, etc. Then, as he leaves, he gives Sandy envelopes of cash to distribute to those who've apparently done various tasks for the funeral, etc., but he gives the envelope with a note to Ghita to Mustafa to deliver, not to Sandy or Gloria.

šjane›

Oho, what a sharp eye our Jane has! Yes, he didn't trust the Woodrows with any important notes, I had to go back to verify that. Perhaps it is because he has by that time already learned something about Sandy that makes him mistrust him, something that Tessa may have told him, but I don't want to get ahead here.

FrancyLou: Never mind, dear Heart! we will be catching up quite soon!

CamW: Of course you can sympathize with Sandy Woodrow. On the surface, he appears to be a perfectly charming, upper-class British career Foreign Office official, and each of us is entitled to his own interpretation of any of these characters.

But on Page 93, when they were questioning Woodrow about Tessa, this is how he responded:

"Tessa was a brilliantly-designed engine with half the cogs missing. Before she lost her baby boy she was a bit wild. All right." Woodrow was about to make his betrayal of Tessa absolute.

"Was she a nympho?"

"Let's just say she flirted outrageously. With everyone."

To me this is not a very admirable man. A man who had not too long before this dashed off a passionate love letter recklessly declaring his infatuation with this same "flirt" of a woman!

Lorrie

Well I had Internet problems yesterday... pain last night, so finished the book. It is very well writen.

I just reviewed Jane's prior link to the Three B's of the Napoleonic (Elba) flag site. did I mis something there? I still can't figure out why the bees were so important? Why bees at all?

INteresting link I found where the reviewer was having a terrible time with the apparent fact that LeCarre did not do his homework describing the whereabouts and setting of a Canadian town- at first I thought a bit nitpicky, but then remembered how annoying it was when a movie was released that was supposed to take place on the outer banks of north carolina and yet it was filmed in new england- the whole nature of the seacoast was so UNcarolinean, it was distracting, and hit a raw spot when one thought how many viewers might have thought our coastline looked like that.

This whole theme with the drug companies is addressed very succintly in many of the writings by Weil. Not to mention those feminists among us who recall that birth control pills were marketed back in the 60's after a minimal trial with I think it was 18 Puerto Rican women- but then again the drug was designed for women, the universal third world citizenry.

aaahh were not for goddesses and Amazons.....

Andy: I think it's that they're the logo/symbol for what Tessa is fighting...the 3 "bees"logo which is a play on the name for the company, Baker, B???, and B????....I forget the actual names of the company and I can't find it at the moment.

šjane›

The Washington Post has run a six-part series on the very subject that we are talking about here in the book, actually, the main focus of the story: I URGE EVERYONE HERE TO READ THIS FASCINATING AND TIMELY COVERAGE!

THE BODYHUNTERS

*******************************************************************

TESTING DRUGS ABROAD

Editorial in Washington Post Sunday, December 24, 2000

LIKE MOST manufacturing businesses and many services, the pharmaceutical industry has gone global in the past decade, not only in the production of drugs but in their development and testing. The percentage of drug approval applications to the Food and Drug Administration based on human tests in foreign countries has tripled since 1995, and the number of researchers and doctors in Latin America, Eastern Europe and southern Africa testing drugs for the U.S. market has risen from eight to 1,148 since 1991. This vast geographic expansion has greatly increased the number and diversity of people available to try out new drugs, which in turn has brought some medicines to market more quickly and spread their benefits more widely. But as an investigative series in The Post last week showed, it has also created serious new problems of ethics and human rights for both the drug companies and the government agencies that regulate them.

The trouble begins with the question of consent by those taking new and possibly harmful drugs. The FDA requires that companies seeking approval for drugs in the U.S. market obtain the prior written agreement of all test subjects here or abroad, after disclosing the possible dangers of test drugs. But The Post's investigation showed that many tests are carried out in impoverished Third World nations whose residents often do not fully understand the consent forms they are given. Other patients feel forced to participate, either because it is their only way to receive medical treatment or because the trial comes through the agency of an authoritarian government. In one case, Harvard University allied itself with Chinese researchers who used the Communist state's apparatus to round up test subjects in impoverished rural areas.

Many developing countries, particularly in Latin America, have set up procedures to regulate medical trials. But the rules are often laxer, and less rigorously enforced, than in the United States and Western Europe -- a gap that drug companies shamelessly exploit. In some cases documented by The Post, companies whose applications for human trials in the United States have been turned down by the FDA have simply exported the tests to less demanding countries, then used the results in their subsequent applications for full FDA approval -- an end-run the FDA seems to tolerate. Companies also use the lower standards of treatment in the Third World as an excuse not to provide potentially life-saving treatment to some test subjects. The poor people who test new drugs for Americans often never see those drugs marketed in their countries -- and only rarely do they see tests of drugs that would attack the diseases that most plague Africa and Asia, such as malaria.

The World Medical Association recently updated its Declaration of Helsinki, a statement of principles guiding ethical decisions in drug experiments, making it unethical to use dummy medicines on some patients in trials of diseases for which there are proven treatments. Congress and the FDA, too, should take action: At the least, the FDA should not accept human trials conducted in non-democratic countries or allow the export of drugs for trials if they have been rejected for such use in the United States.

© 2000 The Washington Post Company

Lorrie

YiliLin, I think I know the irritation you must have felt. I remember once how annoyed my husband was while watching several showings of a movie supposedly made in our state that showed huge mountains where there were none, what appeared to be a seashore in "The Land of 10,000 Lakes," and a pouring rain complete with thunder during a Christmas party in northern Wisconsin. We always thought it was exactly how some Californians picture some parts of the Midwest.

Lorrie

Even the sceens of San Francisco... then you are in Oakland, the San Rafeal.. you know they have never been there !!

While I lived in New York City from about 1958 through 196x (I don't remember at the moment), I lived in a walk-up on east 58th street. In the movie Valley of the Dolls, there were some sceens that took place in an apartment building--nothing at all like the four apartments per floor of my walkup--and then some scenes from the apartment. The scene out the window, with a view of the 59th street bridge looked like it was taken from my apartment. However the apartment looked nothing like my studio apartment at the time.

When I saw the scene out the window, I sat up and was practically speachless (lucky for the other movie-goers).

camw

Do you remember that movie a couple of years ago about a Washington, D.C. female news anchor and the White House and a story about an incoming rock? The thing is going to hit Earth and annihilate most of the population. Well, they had her driving the "15 minute" drive to the beach at Bethany to be with her Dad to die when the thing hit. And Bethany is 4 HOURS from D.C.! Everyone in the theatre here was grinding their teeth over that one!

Does anyone know why Napoleon had bees on his flag-I know he designed the flag, but why bees as his logo (or whatever he called it in those days!)? I, to have gone beyond-can't put down. Will lurk for a while! I do think that Sandy really loved Tessa-he did not understand her, but I don't think it was just lust! think there was a sneaky admiration there, too. His grief at her death seems real to me. I think he may have been asamed of his love for her-hence his hatred of Justin!

Some more references to the Bees of Napoleon: The first from looks like a Listserv on Medieval symbols from the Univ. of Kansas:

Merely as an historical note, the golden bees sewn on Napoleon's coronation robe, which inspired his use of the bee as a symbol for his family and government, had been uncovered in the 17th century in the excavation of a Merovingian royal tomb in Tournai.
SOURCE: http://www.ukans.edu/~medieval/melcher/matthias/t26/0108.html

it is possible that the fleur-de-lis of the House > of Bourbon developed from the bee symbol. That's interesting - I'd always heard that Napoleon chose bees because _they_ were an inversion of the royal fleur-de-lis!
Source: http://www.ukans.edu/~medieval/melcher/matthias/t26/0108.html

šjane›

Excellent source there, Jane! I must say, you're really on the ball!

The author tells us that the villa in Elba, where Tess's family villa is situated, had been a place at which Napoleon had appointed himself a frequent guest during his ten restless months of exile. On the 0live-wood door there was carved a Napoleonic heraldic bee, in honor of the great man himself. (Page 222)

Incidentally, isn't the history of that "oil room" where Justin holes up, intriguing? When I read about this for some reason I kept thinking of the old nursery rhyme "and the king was in his counting house, counting all his money."

Here's another source for the flag with the bees.

ELBA

Lorrie

Incidentallly, how many of us noticed the bees on the dust cover of this book? I didn't, until someone early on here mentioned it---I think it was Ginny.

Lorrie...I didn't either...until I was getting those references above...and was looking for the full name of that pharma company...and realized that there were bees on the cover jacket!

šjane›

There have been several different interpretations of how LeCarre arrived at his book title, but on page 143 we might possibly see one: Justin’s thoughts after meeting Tessa.

“He was no longer the aging debs’ delight, the nimble bachelor forever side-stepping the chains of marriage. He was the droll, adoring father figure to a beautiful young girl, indulging her every whim as the saying goes.

But her protector, nonetheless, her rock, her steadying hand, her adoring older gardener in a straw hat.”

Could this be, perhaps, how the author found the title? The implied promise of his unflagging (constant) protection?

Lorrie

Lorrie

Thanks, Lorrie...I'd forgotten that...back to read that again.

Great thought Lorrie. I too had forgotten that.

In The next few chapters we begin to get a handle on just why Tessa was campaigning against the injustices. J. is told about Wanza, dead from an AIDS related illness and her infant who were befriended by Tessa . He continues to examine and admit that he was "out of their loop," that he remained outside their circle. Remembering his promise to Tessa, he now trusts noone, as he is interrogated about Lorbeer, Kovacs (our Hungarian woman) and Emrich. The Three B's (Bell, Barker and Benjamin are introduced to us along with Kenny K. Curtis, the President for life. J. recalls Tessa's dislike and her boycott against any ThreeBees products, her anti-Napoleonic crusade, as she called it.

"from the household foods and detergents that Tessa's domestic army of down-and-outs was not allowed to buy, on pain of death to the 3 B's roadside cafeterias and gas stations, car batteries and oil that J. was forbidden to make use of when they were out driving".

The white plague "Tuberculosis" we learn killed Tessa grandfather & she used to say "people who found the disease romantic should have sat at his bedside." My own dad had TB and I remember him being in the TB hsopital. It was the same institution where I spent 4 months in my nursing career studying pulmonary disease. Not a pleasant disease and one, due to the AIDS related problems is manifesting itself in leaps and bounds now.

So methinks there is something of the profound here with the napoleanic logos- something beyond bees- wondering if we are witnessing waterloo, exile-- but i am also thinking about a possible historical reference, france during the time of napolean juxtaposed to kenya at the time of moi- aha!

YiLI Lin: Do you see a similarity between the the time of Emperor Napoleon and France as compared to Kenya and its alleged corrupt President Moi? In what way? Much has been written about the abysmal failure of the Moi regime in regard to humanitarian changes and how their Aid has reachd the wrong hands. Where is the Waterloo here?

*******************************************************************

Now that we're learning more about Justin, do you see him in a different light?

What was your impression of the London luncheon that Justin shared with his superior, Bernard Pellegrin?

Can you see a purpose (story-wise) in the sometimes lengthy interrogations by Rob and Lesley?

Note: Some of the dialogue here is witty. Looking at the menu, Pellegrin says,
"Herring fillet's all right. Smoked eel makes me fart. Sole meuniere's good, if you like sole. If you don't, have it grilled."

"A sole would be fine."

Pellegrin doesn't listen, Justin remembered. It's what got him his reputation as a negotiator.

*************************************************************

Any of you other posters geting thunderstorm alerts? We are here, and supposedly for the next two days. I think one's coming now! I'll shut down.

Lorrie

OK finally - had to finish up "House of Mirth" and do my bit with "The Brothers Karamazov" I've read to page 190 all in one fell swoop - boy this is a page turner isn't it.

The bee is a symbol for Napoleon yes, but what came to my mind so quickly is, African Bees are what we call "killer bees." Seems they got into either South or Central America some, what, 15 years ago now. They infect a hive and the bees are so aggressive they take the hive over in a matter of weeks. We have been dealing with them here in Texas now for about 10 years. If you disturb a hive they literally kill a man, as they did a man in South Texas, or an animal before help can arrive.

La Carré doesn't say France, he says Napoleon - now, his is a glory unto his name but he did conquer most all of Europe with Russia being his downfall on the East and finally, England did him in on the West. So I wonder if it is that aggressive side of Napoleon that La Carré is talking about.

Somewhere, early in my read, I am too lazy to look up the page, Tessa had bees in her bonnet. Justin is a gardener with a straw hat hmmmm Bees are usually in the garden, aggressive African bees in both their bonnets. Justin was going to be fired from his position but for the still born baby. He still lives comfortably with no sign that loosing his position would have been a big blow. Where is his money invested I wonder?

His cagey interrogation seems too much for just the concept casually mentioned that he could be a suspect to Tessa's murder. And all that guilt about the line being drawn and he not engaged in her cause - hmm.

I bet her papers are in the coffin with her and that is why he didn't want the concrete poured on her coffin.

I'm resenting this higher then thou, patronizing attitude about the wives. It is like now we must all agree, not only are the wives like geisha's because they cannot add financial value to themselves, nor the land that they are living in because they cannot work for money but, there is this overriding put-down that being a homemaker, handling the parties, caring for the children and assuring they are educated isn't enough. Those that insist on this concept have been around since way before woman have had other choices. It is to me like the work of a homemaker is still not respected, especially if the woman has a hobby that she expresses herself with and her skill is not at a professional level.

In this story I am getting the impression the message is, if the woman could work they would be the ones to clean up Africa. Which comes to my other grrrrrr - They keep saying if the woman of these nations could control things - well they don't and if a few try they are shot down as in the story literally killed. Many of the men are just as helpless although, they do not like to admit it. They only work at these jobs that seem to provide smoke screens for what is really happening because they need to feed their family and their responsibility is to be there for their family just as the wives responsibility is to assure the children receive the care needed to grow to maturity.

I think it is all a tangled mess - in that most CEOs are only looking at profit because there is no company if the investors do not receive a profit. We all cut a corner if it will save us time or money. No one thinks that cutting that corner is adding to the hunger or death rate or what ever. Easy case in point for me to see.

Example: As a nation we have more income in the past few years and we spend it among other things on foods available like strawberries in December and apples in June. All we see is they are in the store. We can afford them regardless, that they cost a bit more out of season. Yes, much of the off season food comes from Mexico and Central America. And isn't it nice that these poor folk farmers are finally making some money after all, it keeps the supply of wet backs a bit lower.

Well for the last 3 years the fires from their slash and burn method of growing food for profit is bellowing smoke up on the southern breezes that here in Austin for about 5 weeks in early spring we can hardly breath. The sun is hazed over for, this is the 4th week now with at least one more to go. Some days the sky is whirling black completely blotting out the sun. My room air purifiers cannot keep up, half the town is at the doctors and we are not even addressing how much of the world's required tree mass, jungle is being wiped out each year.

These parts of the world do not have fertilizer and by burning they rid the land of weed seeds and bugs. Therefore, a field is good for only two crops than they must go on. All for a pint of strawberries in December. Also, being fair within the US with the increase population, farms are being chewed up for housing. Therefore, even seasonal crops are not coming to us from local farmers. The economics of farming has changed and it takes a big set-up to stay in business. The cost of a big set-up requires the kind of crop that can be sold without risk of spoilage. On and on -

And with Aids medicine the story is what we are reading. We wanted the medicine quickly. Someone had to be the test patients. We also now know that just by supplying cheap medicine will not assure the poor get it. Most often it simply is turned around and sold for profit to another nation. Sometimes the profit is made right here as the medicine is sold back for less than what can be secured from the Pharmaceutical Reps.

I guess after just having read Wharton's "House of Mirth" I can see the system makes for a lot of pain. How to change the system and to what - ??

I feel less idealistic about coming up with meaningful change. We see that the best systems seem to get gummed up with folks that are out for themselves and to satisfy their greed. We can look back and see that all the bright aims of communism were dashed when the corruption at high levels took over. Our own system sounds fine until we have to face it is tied to this concept of a free market, which looking at it, it is like letting the "killer bees" loose to invade every business and ultimately every family as we financially secure our welfare, which includes being as competitive as possible to get the best paying jobs.

This story seems to be bringing out the bees of my discontent. And as there is no subduing the African bee here I wonder how we will every subdue the brutality of our system.

The poor squeezed into a waiting room to obtain hope for a better AIDS treatment, will leave empty handed. Since Feb., five top drug companies have slashed the prices of their lifesaving AIDS drugs, bringing them in tantalizing reach of many Africans for the 1st time. In March, Botswana announced that, with the help of Western donors, it hoped to begin providing meds to the needy, by years end. That same month,insurance companies in S. Africa began to offer triple therapy AIDS cocktails to thousands of employees enrolled in theri benefit packages. In April, Doctors without Borders plans to prescribe the drugs for FREE at a clinic. This is the first pilot program of its kind in Cape Town, so the health officials say. The stats (in So., Africa) are: of the 40,000 believed to be infected with HIV only about 11 people can currently afford the pills that could save their lives. Cheap drugs are still TOO costly. They attempt to track TB patients and immunize children in S. Africa, but they are unprepared to distribute drugs and monitor compliance, EVEN if the pills were free! Most of these people will buy food with what monies they have. Cipla, an Indian manufacturer of generic drugs, cut their price of the triple cocktail to African governments to $600/patient/year, which was about $400 bucks below the price offered by the companies that hold the patents. Merck, Bristol-Meyers, Squibb andd Abbott Labs followed. Rmember we're just talking drug regimen here. What about lab tests, training of MDs and RNs, throughout the public sector, in cities, large and small?????

Amazing fact!! The man who discovered the polio vaccine never made one penny from it! When Jonas Salk was asked, "Who owns that vaccine, he answered "the people own it." He didn't live in obscurity nor did he die in poverty. If his research were done today, would the funders and the institutions prefer he apply his genius to AIDs, to baldness, to impotence, or whatever??? Would he, in today's world hold out for a piece of the "vaccine action?" translated to $$$$$$$$$$ Royalties!!

OOps, let us not forget the salemen needed in this scientific vs. business, nonprofit vs. profit mess.

WOW! Both those impassioned statements by Barbara and ALF seem to hit the very nerve that was so instrumental in Tessa's fight against the pharmaceutical company. When she discovered what was transpiring on the medical research and testing scene, she was appalled, and thus began the cause that was to cause her to be murdered. And now it looks like Justin has taken up the banner.

This whole subject seems to have incensed LeCarre, too. In one of his rare interviews, he said "I'm sickened by the world of pharmaceuticals, in fact the whole pitch-dark underside enrages me." Courtesy of the Vancouver Sun, December 16, 2000.

Lorrie

Not sure how far we as a group are reading and discussing - couldn't put the book down today - well it looks like Justin did get the papers and he is holed up in the Bee crested bunker of old sorting through.

Interesting to see how this story is being told - first through the police interragation and now thru the process of reading Tessa's papers. Justin is coming through finally with a backbone and to me less subject to scrutiny as one of the bad guys that caused Tessa's death.

The whole bit about the slanted press in Medical Journals is, according to a TV magazine, a reality that some Doctors are now facing exposé since their names were attached to the paper, actually written by and submitted by a phamaceutical house. Wasn't in the late 1980s that the majority of Drug companies moved their headquarters to Porto Rico in order to save by no longer having to pay cooperate income tax.

I'd love to know how much the HMOs and the Drug Companies are in bed with each other.

Does anyone know if this drug they are talking about is a real drug or a made up name?

Metaphor to France in Napolean's time- ' Let em eat cake!' Barbara, I think you expressed in more detail some of my thinking, especially about Napolean confronting Russia on the East and England on the West- Tessa too appears napoleanic in her rage, and interesting there is talk of Russians as well as the Brits. And now that I have sort of restated that- I am thinking LeCarre had more to say here than pharmaco's, and unsavory business practices- here is an interesting view of eastern/western and third world political dynamics, played out through the story line.

oh ps- and does anyone else think LeCarre treats even the less than admirable men gently? Is this his couched chauvanism or is he simply a product of his cultural viewpoint. I get the sense that there is an expectation that all readers will accept the male characters, flaws and all- and even if Tessa is on a mission of value, she is presented as a flawed character.

I wonder Yili Lin if the difference is not the treatment of men versus women as much as she is a maverick along with Bluhm as compared to the others that are inside a web spun by the system.

I guess I think so much on Justin's questions to Tessa - Who are the white hats? What is an ethical foreighn policy? When does a humanistic state become unacceptable repression? What happens when it threatens our national interest?

Since I do not work or play on an international level I took those questions down to my own affairs. Who do I consider the white hats in my community, neighborhood even what I value as white hat behavior in myself? What is an ethical policy toward those in my community etc - When does my actions to be helpful become unacceptable respression? What happens if other's values and behavior threaten my interests, especially my ability to take care of my needs, like shelter, food, transportation, my physical safty, ability to earn money with my skills, or take care of my health with my choice of provider, etc.

It is hard to find the culpret when I look at the influences that affect my life - oh there may be a poster figure for the abuse or whatever but, I've learned, no one usually acts from some base of evil. They usually think their behavior will satisfy their need that was often formed out of some personal experience.

As we all share a set of values they are interpreted by each of us a bit differently. It is amazing when you think of it that we can funtion as a community at all. Again I think the ability to function as a community comes out of the system that is used to control the individuality within a community. Freedom is a great word but total freedom is chaos. Seems to me that is the message here - there is too much freedom among international centered corperations.

I must agree though, and I thought I was being too sensitive, I do not like the way either Tessa or Gloria have been treated. There is too much belittling and minimizing their contribution to the community for my taste. So far the only one getting brownie points as a character seems to be Justin. I get the sense that La Carré likes Justin and sees his behavior as the benchmark of a civilized man. Which if you notice the message is "do not trust anyone!" Hmmmmm

The East / West hmmmm need to think on that a bit.

Gee, Barbara.. I thought that the schedule in the heading was very clearly stated... Maybe, I should have made the print larger.

OK. We are reading 6 thru 11 this week as we find Justin is free! "Not pardoned, not reconciled, not comforted, not resolved. But free at last to mourn in his own way. Free of his dreadful cell." I have read and reread this next sentence and I don't understand it. "---if grief was a species of idleness, then free of the idleness that thought of nothing but its grief."

The interogations continue as he remains impervious to their innuendos. Sadly he realizes by detaching himself, letting Tessa carry on alone and by emigrating from her in his mind he had made an immoral contract with her. He realized Tessa's desoution after she lost her child and told the interrogaters "is she'd needed a hundred Bluhms she could have them all an on whatever terms she wished." I felt that one of the most gut wrenching sentences in this novel was when Lesley asked J. how they could survive like that. Justin answerd, "We didn't survive, Tessa's dead."

Yes, I think Mr. LeCarre admires Justin. "The world contained a small number of reasonable souls of whom Justin happened to be one. Their job was to head off the human race from its worst excesses--"

Alf-I, too reread that sentence a dozen times and still am not sure what it means. If grief was idleness then free from the idleness and able to DO something and still grieve.???? Only thing I could make any sense of! I am not sure that I really like Justin. How could he have been so oblivious to someone he supposedly loved? I know that he could not have changed a thing, but not knowing anything or even asking-just letting Dr. Bluhm 'handle' it???? He did love her and WAS her nurturing constant gardener but so oblivious and wrapped up in his own beliefs? He did not even have separation as an excuse-they both lived in the house-she was with him. How did he get so lost? He is grieving this now, but I am not sure that I like him for it!! He brings a lump to my throat-His grief is heart wrenching-but why oh why so late with his wisdom about Tessa? I think that Mr. LeCarre is telling it like it is-women are looked at in this way (bits of fluff)especially in this world of diplomats and politicians. "We will LET the poor darlings...." Powerful people do run rampant over the poor (money WILL have it's way!) People that try to balk at the 'system' DO get hurt or killed! Most of us just kind of turn our heads away-it is unjust,unfair and cruel, true BUT.... This author really makes me think, get angry, disbelieve, wish I had said THAT and thoroughly enjoy his story.

Ok the way I understand the sentence is to change a few words and drop a few words and this is what I came up with - grief is a product of idleness or maybe grief is expressed in idleness and so if you free yourself from the product than you free yourself from feeling the grief since, the product expresses nothing but grief. Oh shoot the words go round and round -

Oh yes, I love that sentence you found Alf - "The world contained a small number of reasonable souls of whom Justin happened to be one. Their job was to head off the human race from its worst excesses--" Perfect.

Couple things hit me that I had to question - when an author repeats something it makes the hair stand up on my neck. Jackdaw is repeated. OK we know they are birds that nest in chimneys. They steal the eggs from other nests, especially sparrows and they are attracted to, bringing back to their nests, bright and shiny objects. Children's tales told us that the Jackdaw is vain, empty and conceited. But aha, Aesop has some pithy tales about them.

The Jackdaw and the Doves A JACKDAW, seeing some Doves in a cote abundantly provided with food, painted himself white and joined them in order to share their plentiful maintenance. The Doves, as long as he was silent, supposed him to be one of themselves and admitted him to their cote. But when one day he forgot himself and began to chatter, they discovered his true character and drove him forth, pecking him with their beaks. Failing to obtain food among the Doves, he returned to the Jackdaws. They too, not recognizing him on account of his color. expelled him from living with them. So desiring two ends, he obtained neither.

The Jackdaw and the Fox A half-famished JACKDAW seated himself on a fig-tree, which had produced some fruit entirely out of season, and waited in the hope that the figs would ripen. A Fox seeing him sitting so long and learning the reason of his doing so, said to him, "You are indeed, sir, sadly deceiving yourself; you are indulging a hope strong enough to cheat you, but which will never reward you wit enjoyment."

And than the French Connection - this rhyme known about by most children growing up in Europe. The Jackdaw of Rheims

I don't know that any of it is actually giving us any clues except that it seems to me to be highlighting the chaotic search and that there were signs left as pretty and sparkly as any, telling Justin that the house was searched. And that maybe?? Justin is like the fox and within the British Commission he is like the Dove.

He seems to me to be an intellectual, an academic , a scholor wrapped up in his own thoughts and problems. He tells us that Tessa exempted him from active service, she invented specious arguments to put him at ease. She insisted the world needed both of them; him, inside the system--pushing and Tessa outside , in the field, pulling. He didn't mind being "out of the loop."

I like Tessa, myself. I see her as a crusader, perhaps an over zealous crusader but none the less, her heart was in the right place.

I, too, see Tessa as a [perhaps idealistic] lawyer who saw injustice and felt the need to do something about it. I see Justin as an older man who's been a part of the diplomatic life for so long he has some blinders on regarding things outside the diplomatic community. He loves Tessa, this "crusade" is her passion, and so she pursues it. His passion is gardening, and he pursues that. After she is gone, he realizes how grave his loss is, I think.

šjane›

Yep Alf, Tessa sure is coming across as a crusader - but we know with a Le Carré novel it is all leading to some big confrentation. I'm still wondering who knows what and who is on what side of what confrentation.

Jane we are posting at the same time - but yes, I like your analogy - Justin had his head in the sand.

Another bit that has me scratching my head - had to look up the story of St. Etheldreda in my Saint book and also look in some of my London travel books to see what is said about the Chapel - After I've read all this now I can see the chairs in the dining room Justin doesn't like but they belonged to Tessa's father and even the house, Justin has mixed feelings about. Tessa's family has wealth and a home on an island off Italy. Hmmmm Than the connection to Shakespeare's Richards is interesting.

The oldest Roman Catholic church in London, and the first (1909) —pre-Reformation church in Great Britain restored to Catholic worship. St. Etheldreda's is located on Ely Place, off Charterhouse Street at Holborn Circus. Built in 1251, it was mentioned in both Richard II and Richard III. The chapel and place survived the Great Fire of 1666. In 1873-74, it was purchased and restored by Father William Lockhart and occupied by the Institute of Charity. Father Lockhart was then superior to the English mission. Today Ely Place is still a private road, with impressive iron gates and a lodge for the gatekeeper, administered by six elected commissioners.

St. Etheldreda, was a 7th-century king's daughter who received as wedding gift from her first husband a tract of land known as the Isle of Ely. Five years after his early death, during which time Etheldreda is devoted to her religious vocation, her father arranged for a political union second marriage. She is married to the King of Northumbria's son and heir, Egfried, who was fourteen years old. Again she recieved land that she gave to St. Wilfrid of York as the foundation for the Minster of St. Andrew. St. Wilfrid was her friend and her spiritual guide.

The new husband, upon becoming King, appeals through St. Wilfried for his marital rights against Etheldreda's religious vocation. The bishop persuades Egfried to allow Etheldreda to live in peace for a time at the nunnery founded by her aunt, St. Ebba. Afraid of being forcibly carried off by the king, she, with two women, go south to Ely. Many miracles help them during their journey and they, along with her relatives living nearby, start building the Ely Minster. St. Wilfrid hadn't returned yet from Rome, where he obtained the approvel of Pope Benedict II, when she died of a plague. Her body for centuries, becomes an object of devotion.

All-consuming ambition leads to absolute evil. In his thirst for power, Richard III, is willing to commit any atrocity to win the throne. All things are not as they seem. During most of the play, Richard wears a mask of innocence. He is always pretending, always deceiving. Where there is pure evil, there is no conscience. Richard never expresses regret or remorse. He is bad to the bone, and proud of it. His deformatiy spreads to his character and he uses his mind to free himself from his body.

Richard II Even powerful kings must yield to the will of the people. Disenchanted with Richard's rule--which imposes a crushing tax burden--the people replace him with Henry Bolingbroke. Guilt often exacts a heavy penance. At the end of the play, Henry Bolingbroke announces he will go to the Holy Land to remit the guilt he feels for the death of Richard.

Wilan, you ask: "How could he have been so oblivious to someone he supposedly loved?"?

On page 134 Justin attempts to explain his relationship to Tessa to the two interrogators. He then adds, "She follows her conscience. I get on with my job. It was an immoral distinction. It should never have been made. It was like sending her off to church and telling her to pray for both of us. It was like drawing a chalk line down the middle of our house and saying see you in bed."

I think that says it all.

Lorrie

Jane, I think you got it when you mention about Justin wearing blinkers, Foreign service blinkers, that blinds him to much of what is going on around him in his personal life.

I think it's hard for older couples to understand that there are today marriages that are very "open-ended," where each partner is free to come and go as he or she pleases, and "let it all hang out," as they say. I see Justin and Tessa's marriage as one of these. I believe he trusted her implicitly, and don't think for a moment that he actually believed Tessa was sexually involved with Bluhm.

ALF, I liked your fervent statement about the medical situation in Africa at the present. I am not sure yet, but I do believe that, if nothing else, this book of LeCarre's has begun a chain of inquity, especially with the World Health Organization. I certainly hope so.

Barbara and Yili Lin, Do you really feel that the women Gloria and Tessa are treated shabbily in the book? I can't agree. To me they seemed to lead sheltered, even pampered lives, with many material benefits that go along with diplomatic posts. Until Tessa went on her crusade, of course. And Gloria seems to be doing exactly what whe wishes to do, help further her husband's career, and eventualy become Lady Woodrow. Or would that be Lady Gloria?

Lorrie

Barbara"grief is a product of idleness or maybe grief is expressed in idleness and so if you free yourself from the product than you free yourself from feeling the grief since, the product expresses nothing but grief..."

i see what you mean and aside from the overriding plot, i think justin is adequately depicted as an everyman who experiences a trauma and needs to engage in action to regain a sense of control. what i like about justin in this novel is he does not seem to change significantly, his actions are believable, he does not suddenly exert an uncharacteristic rage or violence, a rather 'proper' and well disciplined modus.

LorrieDo you really feel that the women Gloria and Tessa are treated shabbily in the book? I am not sure I fully understand the idea behind the word shabbily. But I still hold that Tessa, as a force, is not recognized as such by the men. She is a rebel, or renegade, or acting out, almost a kind of 'cute' that suddenly gets out of hand. To me she is depicted as so many women in history whose contributions and fervor to make change has been trivialized. Even when they are condemned they are so condemned in a way that demeans them. In Tessa's case her apparent promiscuity remains at issue in the beginning and cause for comment by virtually all the characters, and here we have a woman addressing a major sociopolitical injustice and we spend chapters wondering if she was sleeping with Bluhm- if she were does it make a difference? Do we typically care who the men who impacted history slept with- it is not Tessa as a character written by LeCarre who I believe is trivialized, it is Tessa as a character who represents qualities of others who I think is trivialized.

I like them both.. Justin for his strenth... Tessa for her strenth!

Right, YiLi Lin. I wonder if the men in the British High Commission condemned Tessa more for her stepping ouside the bounds of that "good old Etonian" network than for apparently bedding with an African. I got the impression that writing letters of protest to high-ranking Civil Servants and CEO's of pharmaceutical companies just isn't done, in those circles.

FRANCY LOU: Yes, strong is a word that describes both of them, isn't it? And we can see just how much strength Justin is beginning to show as he begins his travels.

Lorrie

I KNOW IT'S A LITTLE EARLY, BUT SHALL WE GO RIGHT ON TO THE NEXT SCHEDULE? I KNOW A LOT OF US HAVE GONE MUCH FURTHER IN THE BOOK AND I THINK WE'RE READY TO DISCUSS IT.

LET'S READ RIGHT ON PAST CHAPTER 12 UP TO AND INCLUDING CHAPTER 17, IS THAT OKAY WITH EVERYONE? NOT TOO FAST?

Lorrie

I like them both.. Justin for his strenth... Tessa for her strenth!

Interesting how we each see Tessa and Justin's marriage diffently - My take is she is probably very faithful to Justin but has an active professional life that as many who are in the volunteer community, their work spills into their every waking hour. Where as Justin is a regimented traditional man with his 8 to 5 and in his off hours he has his hobby, the garden.

I like what you say Francylou - they are both strong and I'd add independent.

My very, very best friends in this whole world live a similar life. They are in their eighties now and Bill only retired last year at age 84 with his head in the sewers hehehe for the last 30 years. He is - was the engineer for the Austin sewer system and than worked as a consultant for the city the last few years. Every evening there was the long hike with a dog, over the years there have been several dogs, and his taking care of their pool and his woodworking.

But Charlotte has always been a dynamo. Active in one cause or another since I met her 35 years ago. She is still an active lobbiest running off to D.C. every three or four weeks for a few days. She is very active with the Gray Panthers and the Pan-Am Association. She is often a lecturer at St. Ed's, the Catholic College here in Austin - on and on.

For the last 15 years her issues have been mostly in the area of health and care for the aged. Here she is, age 82 and she can work rings around me. Years back when she was so involved with helping to set up care for children in Argentina she regulary traveled with men and they shared what ever shelter they could get. Charlotte and travel mate were so into their work that other passions were never an issue. Of course I do not know what goes on in peoples minds but she was a married lady is how she behaved and thought of herself. It was always a joy visiting because I would have very interesting but seperate conversations with each about totally different issues.

Her daughter is an attorny in Houstin and has also taken up the good cause. Marylou is not independently wealthy and so her paid work is important. But again, she and her husband seem to have a good marriage. He is an engineer who travels to the orient about 6 months out of every year and he spends most of his free time on the golf course. They each live professional lives rather than "the" homemaker caring for him and the responsible husband providing for her.

Where as Charlotte has been all that and a homemaker that sewed the clothes, made the Christmas tree orniments and cookies, attended PTA and volunteered as the Scout leader when the children were at home. Charlotte still sews most of her own clothes and for her two granddaughters.

With the picture of my friends in mind I really can see Justin and Tessa's marriage as a marriage where they were faithful to each other and in addition, she had the opportunity and support of Justin to be a force.

The choice of him being a gardener is just too close to Prince Charles' hobby, although, the Prince plays polo where Justin seems to garden and know his food and wine. A sort of Leslie Howard type is how I picture him with blond hair. Maybe it is that his hobby is like Prince Charles therefore, somehow Justin is not out of the woods with me - but I haven't finished the book yet and so I shall see what I shall see, won't I.

I'm so glad we will go on - this book is such the page turner - I haven't been captivated by a book in a long time as this one has my attention. Great choice Lorrie -

Perhaps the initial intense grief so absorbed every thought and action that it enforced a sort of idleness. In coming to grips with the grief perhaps the all encompassing gave way to the ability to function. The grief still remained, but to a lesser degree.

camw

Cmw: That is a good point. Have you ever been so consumed with a thought that it almost becomes a hypnotic thought?

Yili: I do not think for one moment that Tessa slept with any of those men, albeit Justin. In their dreams , perhaps.
She was an outrageous flirt, coquettish and forever playing the vixen. She toyed with them for her own purposes but rejected their advances. Somewhere along the lines I had convinced myself that Bluhme was either gay or totally committed to another that we haven't met. Perhaps on this 2nd read thru, my confusion will lessen.

Barb: Don't you just adore folks like your Bill and Charlotte? Oh if we could only clone those activists that are so committed to making this world a little better.

Francylou: You said it! They both have backbone and brawn, when needed. Where do people gain this courage and durability in the face of adversity? I had the image of an anchor. Tessas strength comes from her stillborn child and Justins comes from his deceased wife. They have the fortitude to carry on with this ordeal, empowered by these two dead beings. Death attached (moored) them to the living.

Lorrie: that sounds good, moving right along.

ALF: I know exactly what you mean. Sometimes at bridge I concentrate so hard on thinking (to my partner) "NOW DON'T TRUMP MY ACE!" that I can't think of anything else. Hahaha

Barbara: Yes, exactly. We have a woman like Charlotte in our building here. Her energy makes me exhausted just watching her. A very admirable person!

CamW: That particular quote about grief seems to have struck a chord here. It's enigmatic, isn't it?

Lorrie

Yes Alf I agree, but how easy the established mores suggest women have crossed particular lines. I don't mean to get us off track, but I was thinking about my last post and would like to point out an exception- I have never read any version of the life of Joan of Arc that diminished her in any way...hmmmm.

I like that LeCarre has created a novel where an individual's grief is primarily measured by others rather than the person grieving and gives us a wonderful glimpse of how even that portion of our lives can be manipulated for a public face. Suddenly others have determined that Justin is grieving, and thus can be exonerated from stepping outside the rules.

This is great! I like the way people are responding here. So many different opinions--on how we preceive Tessa, and Justin, and Gloria!

YiLi Lin:In your post you say,""I like that LeCarre has created a novel where an individual's grief is primarily measured by others rather than the person grieving and gives us a wonderful glimpse of how even that portion of our lives can be manipulated for a public face." Can you think of an example of this in real life? The Kennedy assasination, perhaps?

***************************************************************** Frankly, at first I thought I could easily become bored with Miss Goody Two Shoes early on, if she hadn't gotten herself murdered. At least when she's dead the martyr label seems to fit a little better, doesn't it? (Joan of Arc?)

****************************************************************** Barbara:Here is some more about the significance of the bees. When Tessa came home from the hospital, in her fever she whispered to Justin, "Kenny K. (Kenneth K. Curtis, the CEO of the pharmaceutical company called The Three Bees)thinks he's Napoleon with his 3B's. And their sting is fatal, did you know that?" Page 224

******************************************************************< EVERYONE: I have a question. In reading over most of the parts about Guido, the gifted computer-savvy child that Justin recruits to help him with Tessa's laptop, I can't fine any reference as to where he and Tessa first became involved. On page 217 the mother talks about coming from Albania, but does anyone know their original connection with Tessa? Or is there one?

Lorrie

I read a version of the life of Jean d'Arc which portrayed her as a delusional peasant girl who was too stupid to know what effect her recounting of her hallucinations were having in real life. Haven't a clue, of course, as to whether or not this version of her life was correct, since I was not alive back then, but it does erase the exception.

Lorrie, I think Guido is someone Tessa "saved"... so they were her special friends she took in - her extended family. You remember there were "extened family" that lived in her house (family home) in England

Body hunters is scary!!! How does it go... there but by the grace of God go I... something like that... anyway, I am glad I am not poor in Brazil, Costa Rica, Africa, China, India.

How does Beth and Adrian know where he is - who are Beth and Adrian, I don't remember them from the earlier part of the book - They come and go quickly and no more is said about them - what is their role - Now that we have Justin beat up the question is - was the assult by the English or the three Bs or some other group. He was so careful and yet they found him - seems they must have lookouts in every area that someone Tessa was in contact with lives. He guessed about the Mercedes, I wonder why he didn't do more to allude the vehicle and act on his hunch.

In some ways he is aware and mature to the world he finds himself and other ways, especially to Tessa's work, it is like he is coming out of a shell. He is closer to her in her death than he was to her in life.

What a lovely job he does to calm, support and empower Guido.

Evidently the drug Dypraxa is a made up name and not a real drug. Where are our nurses - isn't the word saying something - I've seen raxa in the names of drugs - does it mean something and does the Dy mean something. It is probably Latin and it has been too many years without a Latin dictionary to figure out how to break the word down and come up with some meaning.

And these bees, the keep popping up don't they. And Sandy seems to have a one track mind - everyone has the hots for him.

I think Beth and Adrian are more of Tessa's extended family.... Its like all of us we have friends who we see very little of, but they are there for us.

Francylou - aha another night owl - if extended family how did they find him - they don't sound like they live on the Island. Did Ham or the Aunt open their mouths do you think?

It sounded like everyone in the village knew he was there. So probably gossip. I thought he was careless in his choise to go where everyone knew him... but just going to a connection to Tessa was the "biggie" they were waiting for him.

I am reading Timeline now... one of the guys has bruises all over his body... he has the same reaction as Justin.

Sites Far Removed from Regulators: Wow, Lorrie, that is quite the site. I spent an hour reviewing these articles. It is unbelievable that a huge, influential drug conglomerate, such as Pfizer can get away with such an atrocity. Oral medicines? NOT For bacterial meningitis. Using these meds on an already dying population for compilation of vital data rather than having epidemiolgic research is unpardonable to me. How in the world did this gain clearance? Or better yet, WHO would have known, other than the company execs and researchers that such an assinine trial was being performed? They had the gall to call it a philantrophic endeavor, not an FDA ordeal. Such nerve!! The quick, easy cure was chosen; the cure (if it succeeded) that would genereate the least effort and the most capital.

Doctors Without Borders efforts were diminished as patient care was compromised, as well as the validity of Pfeizzer's "trial".

Dy- means pain or discomfort. Dypraza is a made up name, but where there is smoke there's fire.
Caveat empter.

Was there ever anything in the book which said this "disease" we're speaking of in CG is Aids? I guess I assumed it was, but I don't recall reading that the disease had a name. Has anyone found it?

I thought Justin went to Tessa's area because the homes would be available to him and her friends would be able to help and perhaps hide him. He needed someone he could trust to try and get into her laptop...and he didn't know many people with those skills (he is apparently a "Luddite"...(ie, someone who's technical skill is limited to a pencil and paper)...and everyone he'd know with those skills would be High Commission and related and he could not trust anyone there. I assume he also didn't trust the local equivalent of a Kinko's or a computer techie place, if there were any.

I'm assuming the assault is from the 3Bs or their "associates" and I'm also assuming they're on the watch for Justin in a number of locations where he might turn up. They don't seem to lack "resources" for whatever they want to do...or to protect whatever they wish to protect.

šjane›

After reading Renato's Luck it is easy for me to accept that the whole village probably knew all there is to know about Justin. From a critical standpoint, I did not like the dialogue that included Guido, somehow I think LeCarre missed the voice for this young man. Where did he come from and why did he have so many of Tessa's secrets? I thought she had some roots in this town and Guido flowered from them.

Barbara- did you perchance see the article in the NYTimes I think two sundays ago, magazine section, about the young man who is still looking for answers and accountability for what he believes is a CIA assassination of his father- back in 1953- in New York City, originally it was played out that he jumped or fell from his hotel room. Well interesting- though I only scanned the article- the picture of the obit- he was a biologist and bacteriologist!

hmm yes dys is a medical prefix meaning pain or discomfort- hmm could praxa be a form of praxis- in philosophical terms one would engage in praxis- 'doing' 'action' with informed consciousness, but for purposes of the book i wonder is dypraxa - painful practice? or undoing?

Aha there could be than a meaning to the name of the Drug - great to know - I guess we are saying since Adrian asks where is Justin’s man Luigi, he knows the island and Therefore he and Beth must be from the Island or have property there and heard Justin was there from the other locals.

Now to, how the pharmaceutical companies get away with what they do does not surprise me, nor the secretiveness. I keep forgetting that what happened during W.W.II and how everyone of us in the US directly contributed to the concentrations camps is not knowledge that folks like to remember of that not everyone read about it when it was all exposed.

There was a gentleman living in the mid-Atlantic states that was interviewed years ago, back in the 1950s, who wrote the whole sorry exposé in a published book. This older gentleman was interviewed by Hugh Downs on a "Home" show that aired 10: or 11: weekday mornings. Later the author was interviewed on the Dave Garaway (spell) Show. Several years after all this press the author not only disappeared but there was some talk of his suspicious demise.

If y'all remember during the W.W.II years there were only two aspirins - Was it ASP or was it APC, something with initials and for many years the aspirin was sold in small paper packets of grain that you mixed in water. And than there was Bayer.

Well Germany had the first conglomerates and there were five major corporations in this conglomerate. I remember the one since our pencils were all stamped made by Farbin. Another was of course Bayer. I do not remember the name any longer but there was a German rubber company...I just do not remember any longer the names of the other companies. Well on to our story.

In the 1930s Bayer established it's first factory outside Germany in Rensselaer New York. The other corporations, Hitler had them convert to producing materials for the success of his war. Since a war then was fought with tires and gas, one of these companies had developed a synthetic rubber. These companies had their factoried located just outside the gates of most of the concentration camps, and they used this forced salve labor. All were pressed into war time production except the factory in Rensselaer where the profits from the sale of Bayer aspirin in the U.S. funded most of Hitler's war machinery.

And so the thesis of this book was that, we in the States, every time we used an aspirin for our wartime headaches we were supporting not only Germanys war materials production but we were supporting the concentration camps.

I will get on the net and see if I can find anything about all this but I doubt it. Since it was an exposé before its time - in that the press was not jumping up and down to uncover all the bits and pieces of shocking news as they do now and the government was still very good at and very able at silencing what they did not want known.

I remember always listening to Dave Garaway, in that I didn't always agree with him but he sure got my head working. He was a force and a maverick before it was a popular characteristic of reporters

When Le Carré mentions Bayer in the book, the connection to W.W.II Hitler's Germany was immediate for me. I wonder how much of the pharmaceutical industry is owned by Germany today. There is one to look up - what corporations own the majority of the stock in what holding company that the pharmaceutical houses are connected.

As I recall years ago in order to study medicine you had to learn German rather than Latin or French. I am remembering back when French was still considered the international language of commerce, German was necessary for the reading of medicine and Latin was the language required to study law, while English had little cachet..

I understood it to be TB... a multiresistant form (I think, guessing, comes from people with HIV/AIDS).

I kind of think "they" are all in it together. Tessa was telling him by saying "Trust noone".

Thanks, Francy. I, too, think Tessa was convinced that the High Commission and those who worked there were "involved"...if simply by refusing to look into or turning a blind eye to whatever the Three B's were doing.

šjane›

OK here it is and WOW! -

Bayers (cleaned up) History

Timeline
1933: The Imperial Chemical Industries in England discover Polyethylene.
1933: Du Pont begins production of Rayon tire cord fabrics.
1940: First tire from synthetic rubber produced in US (doesn't say when it was first produced in Germany.
1945: After World War II, the US broke Germany's enormous I.G. Farben into; BASF, Bayer, and Hoechst.

Well here we go - in today's world it doesn't look like the skeletons in the closets can be hid. Bayer AG earns a place in history, and it's not exactly all roses.

Bayer spin off of I.G. Farben - who made the camps of Auschwitz run so efficiently, and developed delicate cures for aging. Victims seek revenge. Hmmm most of the links are dead!

Here is a site that spells it all out Farben was Hitler and Hitler was Farben. (Senator Homer T. Bone to Senate Committee on Military Affairs, June 4, 1943.) German Army (Wehrmacht) Dependence on I.G. Farben Production

And another short report - I.G. Farben's Pact With the Devil
"Krauch was already taking steps to insure an adequate labor supply for the construction of the I.G. Auschwitz plants. He had arranged for Goering to write Himmler on February 18, 1941, asking that `the largest possible number of skilled and unskilled construction workers...be made available from the adjoining concentration camp for the construction of the Buna plant.' Between 8000 and 12,000 construction and assembly workers were needed.

Goering requested Himmler to inform him and Krauch `as soon as possible about the orders which you will issue in this matter.' Acting on this request, Himmler ordered the S.S. inspector of concentration camps and the S.S. economic and administrative main office `to get in touch immediately with the construction manager of the Buna works and to aid the...project by means of the concentration camp prisoners in every possible way.' After Himmler issued this decree, Krauch wrote to Ambros, `These orders are so far-reaching that I request you to apply them to the widest extent as soon as possible.'"

Holy smokes - now we have a better understanding of how easy it is for powerheads to operate - The GW Bush Gang -- Lilley, IG Farben Seventy years ago a similar configuration of oil, pharmaceutical, chemical, military supply and eugenics interests were organized by Wall Street into IG Farben/Standard Oil- Hitler's industrial powerhouse.

camps/auschwitz/air-photo-citations
"On January 14 the United States Air Force flew its twelfth photographic reconnaisance flight over Monowitz. Once more, all of Auschwitz and all of Birkenau were included. Studying the photographs today, the continuing dismantling of the gas chambers and crematoria is evident...."

Farben To Create Slave Labor Fund IG Farben, the German chemical company that made poison gas for Nazi death camps, will set up a compensation fund for Nazi-era slave laborers within weeks, an official in charge of liquidating the once-great firm... the world's largest chemical company, IG Farben was broken up in 1952 by the Allies, who ordered the company into liquidation. It remains largely as a trust to settle claims and lawsuits from the Nazi era. Dozens are still pending in German courts.

Another article collaberating the story A leading lawmaker from Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder's Social Democrats, Dieter Wiefelspuetz, called IG Farben's decision "almost an affront" and said not enough money was being put forward. "The entire proceedings is really embarrassing," he told Handelsblatt newspaper. "It's really regrettable if a company thinks it can get away in this manner."

Bayer predecessor financed torture in concentration camps

There is more and more and more but this was too good to omit -

INDUSTRIAL CO-OPERATION
The co-operation between industry and the camps was so close that a group of industrialists would meet with Himmler on the second Wednesday of every month to discuss co-operative ventures with the SS. This group was known as the "Circle of Friends". Auschwitz itself was financed and owned by I.G. Farben, which also constructed another concentration camp with camp slave labour near Auschwitz, called Auschwitz III (also known as Manowitz).

Sadly, the real horror of this company's involvement is that justice was never attained against those responsible for the war crimes of I.G. Farben. Dr. Walter Durrfeld, an engineer and chief of construction at the Auschwitz plant between 1941-44, for example, denied knowing personally of any abuse of slave labour. His denials were contradicted by eye witness testimony at Nuremberg.

Krupp was one of the largest industrial combines in Germany and a recipient of slave labour from Auschwitz during the war. Nine of its board of directors were convicted at Nuremberg of war crimes.

Hoechst: The toxic brewmasters
In 1883, the company made its first move beyond dyes when one of its chemists discovered Antipyrin, an early analgesic. This led to work on the anesthetic novocaine and on salvarsan, the first effective medication for syphilis.

The first synthesis of adrenalin developed in 1906 and the isolation of insulin in 1923, by which time the firm had been renamed Hoechst.

The dye industry in Germany (and other countries) commonly engaged in anti-competitive practices, with the major corporations joining cartels early in the twentieth century.

In 1904, Hoechst joined the Dreiverband cartel; BASF and Bayer were part of another grouping called Dreibund. The cartels carved up the market among themselves and undermined the growth of the dye industry in countries like the United States. During World War I, the German dye companies altered their formulas to produce mustard gas and explosives.

In 1916, the two dye cartels joined forces to create the Interessengemeinschaft der deutschen Teerfarbenfabriken . Known later as the Little IG, this combine exerted total control over the dye industry and soon acquired extensive coal mining operations to carry out a plan initiated by BASF to create liquid fuel through hydrogenation of coal.

In the 1920s, dye industry leaders, led by Carl Duisberg of Bayer and Carl Bosch of BASF, successfully pushed for the merger of the dye makers into a single company. In 1925, the companies merged into the Interessengemeinschahft Farbenindustrie AG or IG Farben (Interest Community of the Dye Industry, Inc.)

This huge corporation, which soon included related industries such as explosives and fibers, was the biggest enterprise in all of Europe and the fourth largest in the world, behind General Motors, U. S. Steel and Standard Oil of New Jersey.

In 1926, IG Farben entered into a non-competition arrangement with Jersey Standard for oil and chemicals while agreeing to cooperate on the development of synthetic rubber ( Jersey Standard later came under fire from the U.S. federal government because of evidence that the Germany company was impeding its progress).

Although Carl Bosch, the head of IG Farben Æs managing board, opposed the anti- Semitism of the Nazis, the company gave financial support to Hitler and (without Bosch, who resigned in 1935) became indispensable to the German military effort during World War II. ...Several years later, in 1952, the company was divided into several independent firms, including BASF, Bayer and Hoechst. (IG Farben survived as a shell company and remains one today.)

Wheeee the connections are great - Lara is the Russian equivalant for Larissa which is not only a moon for neptune, a female Greek name but also the name of the city where the father of medicine died.Larissa

Yes, Barbara, and the giant compay Bayer, is at it again! Or should I say still? Please read this:

"UK: Bayer in Illegal Drug Trial Scandal"

KEYCODE BAYER #27

KEYCODE BAYER is published by the German group BAYERwatch which has been monitoring the BAYER Corporation for more than 20 years.

Lorrie

A VERY HAPPY EASTER AND PASSOVER SEASON TO ALL OF OUR READERS HERE!

LORRIE

Well between what you found going on at Pfizer Inc. Lorrie and then finding again all that about Bayer it has been a day of my trying to tie things in a package. Unfortunatly the more I looked the more I found and it seems to be a huge industry that I cannot get my hands around it. There is no telling who really owns who - but I am now wondering if any of them have their hands clean.

Ok found the basics of the main Drug companies and there are three starting with the letter B that are international in scope that I wonder if they couldn't be the real 3 bees.

Abbott Laboratories is engaged in the discovery, development, manufacture and sale of a broad line of health care products and services, including diagnostic, pharmaceutical and hospital products. Miles White, 44 Chairman and Chief Exec. Officers

American Home Products is engaged in the discovery, development, manufacture, distribution and sale of a diversified line of products in the areas of Pharmaceuticals and Consumer Health Care and Agricultural products.

Amgen, Inc. is a global biotechnology company that discovers, develops, manufactures and markets human therapeutics based on advances in cellular and molecular biology.

AstraZeneca PLC is an international biosciences company engaged in the R&D, manufacture and marketing of ethical pharmaceuticals, agricultural and specialty chemicals products, and the supply of healthcare services.

Aventis is dedicated to improving life through the discovery and development of innovative products in the fields of prescription drugs, vaccines, therapeutic proteins, crop production and protection, animal health and nutrition. With global corporate headquarters in Strasbourg, France, Aventis was launched in December 1999 through the merger of Hoechst AG of Germany and Rhone-Poulenc S.A of France.

Axcan Pharma Inc. is a North American pharmaceutical company within the field of gastroenterology. The Company's products are marketed in Canada through its subsidiary Scandipharm Inc. Axcan is also a 50% owner of Althin Biopharm Inc., which supplies equipment and hemodialysis products for patients suffering from renal failure. In addition, Axcan holds a 50% interest in Bonne Sante z.o.o. and CZET Pharma, two companies that distribute pharmaceutical products in Poland.

Bayer AG is a diversified, international chemical and pharmaceutical company. BAYZ offers products and services in areas ranging from health care and agriculture to plastics, specialty chemicals and imaging technologies. Hoechst and Bayer, the largest and third largest companies in world pharmaceutical sales respectively (in 1984 and before mega-mergers of the 90's), descended from Germany's I.G. Farben company, Farben ranks with the Standard Oil Trust as one of the two greatest cartels in world history.

Boehringer Ingelheim privatly held group of companies is one of the world's 20 leading pharmaceutical corporations with headquartered in Ingelheim, Germany. They have a global business present in more than 60 countries on every inhabited continent on Earth, manufacturing and marketing human pharmaceuticals (prescription medicines, consumer health care products) and products for industrial customers (like chemicals and biopharmaceuticals) and animal health.

Bristol-Myers Squibb Company,through its divisions and subsidiaries, is a producer and distributor of consumer medicines, pharmaceuticals, nutritionals, medical devices and beauty care products. 1887 William McLaren Bristol and John Ripley Myers decided to sink $5,000 into a failing drug manufacturing firm called the Clinton Pharmaceutical Company, located in Clinton, New York. The company was officially incorporated on December 13, 1887, with William Bristol as president and John Myers as vice president. In 1943 the acquisition of Cheplin Laboratories -- a Syracuse, New York manufacturer of acidophilus milk. Acquired Clairol, a company founded by the husband-and-wife team of Lawrence M. Gelb and Joan Clair. other Acquisitions followed, including those of Drackett, Mead Johnson, Zimmer and Westwood. In 1989 Bristol-Myers merged with Squibb. The merger created what was then the world’s second-largest pharmaceutical enterprise. In 1994 Bristol-Myers Squibb acquired Matrix Essentials. In 1999, Bristol-Myers Squibb announced SECURE THE FUTURE™, a $100 million commitment for HIV/AIDS research and community outreach programs focusing on women and children in five southern African countries: South Africa, Botswana, Namibia, Lesotho and Swaziland.

Eli Lilly & Co. grew from a tiny laboratory in Indianapolis in 1876, to one of the world's largest pharmaceutical companies, discovers, develops, manufactures, and sells pharmaceutical products. The Company manufactures and distributes its products through owned or leased facilities in the United States, Puerto Rico, and 28 other countries. Its products are sold in approximately 160 countries. Lilly made an uncharacteristic, but ultimately profitable, move in 1971when it bought cosmetic manufacturer Elizabeth Arden. Sixteen years later, Lilly sold Arden was sold to Faberge in 1987. Eli Lilly launched Humulin in 1982, making it the first company to market a genetically engineered product. In 1985, the controversial antidepressant drug Prozac was marketed in Belgium, and in 1988 it was introduced in the United States. In 1989, a joint agri-chemical venture between Elanco Products Co. and Dow Chemical created DowElanco . In 1997, Lilly sold its 40 percent share in the company to Dow

Endo Pharmaceuticals Holdings Inc.is engaged in the research, development, sales and marketing of branded and generic prescription pharmaceuticals used for the treatment and management of pain. The Company was formed in July 2000 following a merger between Algos Pharmaceutical Corporation and Endo Pharmaceuticals Holdings Inc. (OLD). Algos is a leader in developing proprietary pain management products. Algos' products currently in development include opioid analgesics (MorphiDex, HydrocoDex and OxycoDex) for moderate-to-severe pain, a non-opioid analgesic (NeuroDex) for neuropathic pain, long-lasting local anesthetics (LidoDex IED) for post-operative pain, an intranasal anesthetic for migraine and products for the treatment of opiate and nicotine addiction. Endo (OLD) is a specialty pharmaceutical company with market leadership in pain management.

GlaxoSmithKline an international pharmaceutical company engaged in the creation and discovery, development, manufacture and marketing of prescription and non-prescription medicines, has 24 research and development sites in seven countries and 108 manufacturing sites in 41 countries. GlaxoSmithKline was formed on December 27, 2000 by the completion of the merger of Glaxo Wellcome and SmithKline Beecham.

Johnson & Johnson manufactures and sells a broad range of products in the health care field in many countries of the world. The worldwide business is divided into three segments: Consumer, Pharmaceutical and Professional. The Consumer segment's products are personal care and hygienic products, including nonprescription drugs, adult skin and hair care products, baby care products, oral care products, first aid products and sanitary protection products. The Pharmaceutical segment's worldwide franchises are in the antifungal, anti-infective, cardiovascular, contraceptive, dermatology, gastrointestinal, hematology, immunology, neurology, oncology, pain management and psychotropic fields. The Professional segment includes suture and mechanical wound closure products, surgical equipment and devices, wound management and infection prevention products, interventional and diagnostic cardiology products, diagnostic equipment and supplies, joint replacements and disposable contact lenses.

Merck & Co., Inc. is a pharmaceutical company that discovers, develops, produces and markets human/animal health products and services. Merck Pharmaceutical and Merck-Medco. Merck Pharmaceutical products consist of therapeutic agents, sold by prescription, for the treatment of human disorders.

Novartis AG is a world leader in life sciences with operations in healthcare, agribusiness and new and future medicines; CIBA Vision, which offers a broad range of soft and rigid gas-permeable lenses; Novartis Generics, which provides off-patent products. Novartis Agribusiness, comprised of Crop Protection, which discovers, develops, manufactures, and markets fungicides, herbicides, insecticides and seed treatment products; Seeds, which develops, produces, and markets seeds and plants; Animal Health, which offers products that maintain and improve the health and well being of pets and food-producing animals; self-medication healthcare (OTC) products; health and functional food products (nutritionally enhanced foods and beverages); medical nutrition products..

Pfizer Inc. is one of the world's largest pharmaceutical and consumer healthcare companies. The Brooklyn plant is where it all began more than 150 years ago and is now the main headquarters. The current Company was formed in June 2000, following the pooling of interests merger between Pfizer and Warner-Lambert Company.

Pharmacia Corporation is engaged in the research, development, manufacture and sale of pharmaceuticals and other related health care products and agricultural products.

Schering-Plough Corp.is engaged in the discovery, development, manufacturing and marketing of pharmaceutical and health care products worldwide, including prescription drugs, animal health, over-the-counter, foot care and sun care products.

Wasatch Pharmaceuticals has developed proprietary technology for the treatment of various skin disorders and operates two prototype treatment clinics in Utah. The initial clinical research that produced the Skin Care technology started with a small study group of ten acne patients treated by Douglas Grossnickle, MD, in 1983 in Portland, Oregon.

CollaGenex Pharmaceuticals is pharmaceutical company focused on providing innovative medical therapies for the treatment of periodontitis and other pathologies characterized by the progessive degradation of the body's connective tissues. David Pfeiffer, 37 VP of Marketing

Biotechnology & Drugs companies

I found their spin on their success - - their history of performance for the growth in their stock - - the presidents and vice presidents names to see if any matched other companies, - - the addresses and holdings of these companies - - what they are known for and what their original discovery in medicine was - - but, after all that I learned you just have to read tons and tons to read between the lines to see what company has what percent of ownership in what other company. Which by the way the German Holding company Boehringer Ingelheim, has 60% ownership in Opel Car Manufactoring.

Eli Lilly seemed the most humane of the bunch and yet they had the most law suites filed against them. I wonder if you have to be a world wide ruthless company in order to survive or else you get picked off being tied to the laws of one nation.

Wow and there is a firm that tracks what Bayer is doing and has been tracking them for 20 years! Amazing! Lorrie this has been an eye opener of huge proportions. I had no idea they were using third world nations as human labratories. Isn't that what they did in the camps during W.W.II.

Yes, Barbara, and the whole despicable process so enraged and sickened LeCarre, as he said in an interview, that he felt he had to write a book about it. Of course, he fictionalized the story, gave the drug a made-up name, and constructed many of his characters from imagination, but the underlying theme is the same.

But let's get away from all the data and concentrate more on how Justin will complete his melancholy journey. Underneath it all, I sense a feeling of pathos, and his imaginary conversations with his dead wife really affected me. Do any of you reading this part now get a feeling, as I did, of a sort of impending doom?

Were you surprised that the two interrogators turned out to be allies? I wasn't, because I had felt all along that the author was painting them in a not so hateful light.

Has anyone else noticed, with increasing frequency, the way LeCarre puts in that one sentence, after describing how carefully Justin watches to see if he's being followed? The sentence that says "In a civilized country you never can tell."

Lorrie

They are using BABIES in 3rd world countries, according to our newsmagazine exposes here.

They have a group of babies they give the experimental drugs to, and a group they do not.

If the drug is toxic, the babies receiving it will die more horribly than the others.

If the drug works, the babies given it will survive and the ones not given it will die.

The parents are not told which babies are getting which drugs.

As we learn of all these outrageous happenings I'm reminded that we are like a bunch of Justins. I wonder if that is the message of Justin's love for Tessa - He appears to have loved her deeply, as the word being overused today, besotted by her but, in her independence he was not as besotted by her work. Only now, in her death, has he realized how much more of his wife there was and how much greater his love could have been had he had a fuller picture of his wife that included her work. Supporting independence is great but, supporting someone in their chosen independent work is part of sharing a life. I think many women did that automatically asking, with real interest, what the men were experiencing on their jobs.

I wonder is that saying to all of us, in order to truly love our fellow man we need to understand what is going on. That to have equal rights is not enough, to have compassion for those on the other side of town or the other side of the world is not enough. We must be aware of the influences that are adding or subtracting from the quailty of life among those we profess to love or for those we have compassion.

Seems like a tall order and yet, by understanding the influences on a society we would have a more realistic concept of the possiblities for peace and mutual relations.

We are not all able to finance those in trouble or travel to third world countries to serve but, I am aware, that as much as I am all over this city because of my work, I always shop near my home, not only for convenience but because I am more comfortable shopping among people similar to me. A few times a year at least, I could make the effort to shop in an area of town where I am not as familiar with the lifestyle. Then I could watch how the shoppers interact, and what kinds of foods are chosen, and the quality of the food that is available. In other words, begin to have more than a passing knowledge of how people live in other parts of town. It isn't much but it is a step forward to more understanding.

Wow allthat since my last post. Only comment I'd like to add is that war in its many guises is historically a commercial effort- people might start war over those social absurdities like territory, religion, nationalism, etc. but its bottom line become $$$. Interesting when one juxtaposes the German Farben in WWII to Standard Oil in the Viet Nam war.

We need also to remember that mavericks like Tessa abound, even in US- the Ellen Brockoviches and other whistle blowers and there is a long history of environmental whistle blowers who have unexplained disappearances and deaths. What is more interesting is how much of the US economy is structured around these affronts- how many pensions are supporting seniors with investments in pharma and other suspect companies (including tobacc) could you imagine how broke everyone would be if in fact we did clean up drugs- think backwards, the $ spent in the neighborhood by the streeet seller, to the cars and luxury items, vacations, real estate bought and sold at each level- not to mention the salaries paid to the law enforcement people, counselors, rehab center and of course the pharma companies who produce antagonists to the drugs!!!!!! Commerce

I think I wanted more from the characters engaged in the 'inquisition'- I am not sure what- but something more, perhaps taking a stand early in the book- could they have had privileged information that could have saved Tessa- are they wimping out and disappearing into the woodwork or will they take up a cause- what do they know about Justin's future?

YiLi Lin:Yes, it would have been nice to see more of the two interrogators and how they participated in Justin's search, wouldn't it? I think LeCarre used them as a tool to to impart some useful information to us readers about some of his characters that it would have been awkward to do without them. Still, all in all, I would like to have seen them play a more significant part later on.

You mentioned Erin Brokovitch. Wasn't there also another woman who died mysteriously, and about whom a movie was made, I think it was called "Silkwood?" Another unexplained death of a whistle-blower?

Jane: It's puzzling---all through what I've read so far I've seen very little mention of Aids, and we all know what a big issue that is in most every African country these days. LeCarre has chosen to emphasize TB more than Aids, why, I don't know, perhaps to stay within the story line.

On page 150 Justin almost tells his questioners about why the native woman Wanza was in the hospital, but it's sort of murky. Tuberculosis and the s0-called wonder drug DYproxa are mentioned briefly throughout the book. On page 226, and 227 in the news item, and in her statement to the police, Ghita gave what to me were confusing answers on page 246.

But all in all, specific mention of any particular disease is not all that common in the book. The drug, yes, the disease no.

Lorrie

Thanks to everyone for the info on the "disease" in question. I wonder if that's a novelist's way, too, of keeping his book "current." By not mentioning a specific disease, it can be whatever disease is the current/in the news one for the reader? If it's spelled out, and a subsequent cure is found for that, then the plot of the book may fall apart for some readers???

šjane›

I wonder if we are looking for a certain disease because of what we hear on the news...Maybe, could it be, this books real focus is on the intrigue that goes on among international companies in order to maintain and secure their power and the particular disease as well as the medicine is secondary. As much as this book points to all this intrigue and strong arm tactics, I think this may be only the tip of the iceberg - something says to me there is much more here and Le Carré could only write about so much without facing law suite.

I guess I am thinking that if Lorrie found the information that says Bayer has had overseers for 20 years than I wonder, what other overseers are out there or should be out there and because the issues didn't make the news we do not know about them.

This story to me has several themes - One, the pharmaceutical industry. Two, the way power is administered when international issues and large dollars are at stake. How the power controls those whom unknowingly support the power. Three, the relationships between people. Between Justin and Tessa and then, Justin and Tessa versus others, on and on; there are many groupings. Four, how a man relates loyalty to his job, his nation, society as a whole. Five, how a man under seige handles grief. Six, the expoitation of Africa.

I am trying to understand the psyche of Africa - we hear of all these atrocities and yet Africa seems to be engaged in dehumanizing itself. Front page yesterday in the Irish Times, (by the way the only newspaper that seemed to feature the story) was this article of a ship being intercepted that contained 250 African children sold as slaves. The parents sell the children for between 18£ and 24£ and they are sold between 180£ and 240£. Some International group was going to try and place the children in their homeland, with parents if possible, and educated them.

I guess my thought is, before western nations took over Africa in the eighteenth century, they were selling themselves as slaves. And now in the late twentieth and twenty-first century, when the western nation's influence is less they are still selling themselves as slaves - most of the black leaders seemed to have maintained their historical power expressed in greed and corruption - male dominance is all over Africa, which is an attude supporting the spread of AIDS - I wonder could TV finally be an answer that would get the messages out day in and day out that may change the culture. This means each village having access to electricity and that will change the landscape of Africa. The social/political system now does not empower the majority. Until the majority are aware of how they are being exploited they will continue to exploit themselves as well as, be exploited by others.

All fine and dandy the crusade like care given by a Tessa but, change never came to any group that was dependent on care from others. Only when victims achieve their own autonomy with the ability to make the changes that support their welfare, do we finally no longer see the exploitation of a people.

I have no memory of what book this quote came from but it has done me well the last 15 years.

“Those who would convince me to abandon responsibility are, without exception, intending to take advantage of me.
Abandoned responsibility is giving up power over my own life. I’ve opened myself up to being cheated and betrayed. Those who offer to "relieve" me of responsibility do not have my best interests at heart, even though they may act, or pretend to act, out of a sense of compassion.”

Jane: Excellent point-- what if a subsequent cure had been found during the course of LeCarres novel? I thought long and hard when reading this novel why AIDS, per se, was not addressed in length. It disturbed me, quite frankly but you have assuaged my discomfort with the above reason. There is also the fact that the AIDS issue evokes strong, opinionated declarations and that was not what LeCarres intentions was, IMHO. The issue is the rape of a third world country, faith and loyalty to ones own station and tenets and the disclosure of the atrocities committed all in the name of power and money. It matters not which disease he is discussing. It exists with any disease!!

Confronting the Legacy of the African Slave Trade an excerpt from this 12 month journey through Africa by Henry Louis Gates a Professor of History at Harvard. I remember seeing the series on PBS. What I remember as being so startleing was the immediate reaction of disbelief by Professor Gates and his painful coming to terms with what he had learned.

The final session included a wrap-up from his heart, in which Professor Gates made the observations that until Africa stopped exploiting its own they would not heal and be the force expressing the people of this great continent.

I guess what I see is that the rape of Africa also includes incestual rape. Therefore, to address the pain and ravagment, of this part of the world, includes self-empowerment, much education, a change in cultural beliefs and an awareness that the power over Africa is not only from the International Coorperations and western greed but also, African greed that helps to keep the people in bondage.

Just as with any victim of rape or incest, the perpatrator is not going to hand the victim back their autonomy, empowerment or self-esteem. A victim must do it for themselves. As the American Revolution freed us from the greed and control of the crown, it was possible because of an educated society. So too I think Africa cannot be free of its perpatrators until the greater majority of the people are educated.

I guess I am seeing Tessa as an accident waiting to happen. So much of her work was in secret. Anyone in an isolated position is vulnerable to the rath and power of those that feel threatened. I learned the hard way in order to be an instrument for change you need a group. Anything, a group or thought entrenched, be it mis-used power, or culture, or "this is the way we always have done it" kind of thinking, digs in and fights tooth and nail any change suggested and certainly will fight an exposé that points to wrong doing or their victimization of people.

I learned this not only in a family drama but having been selected to attend a training event in New York and bring back new training for leaders to our Girl Scout Council years ago was a searing experience, until several other adults were nationally trained in this new thinking.

Interesting there was a show on this evening on DiscoveryHealth- I do not think it was new, anyway about Bayer I did not see the beginning which seemed to be veryfocused on the 'discovery' of aspirin, but as the show moved on and there was an examination of the players, there was very matter of fact inclusion of the role various originators played in the war effort. the end was focused on the man who avows he was the true discoverer of aspirin and believes he was excluded from recognition because he was a jew.

I wonder how much of these kinds of issues LeCarre has embedded in this novel- not pharma and war etc. as much as ethnic and racial issues. I wonder beyond economics, how much British sensibility is not responsive to the Tessa's, Bluhms, Lorbeers etc. because individually or wholistically represent outcasts.

Barbara, I wonder if in a way Africa is the quintessential outcast or is it a continent that is heroically hanging on to the prmitive. I wonder how much male dominance there is simply the staging of gender roles found in most social species- roles that evolved for survival not necessarily power. However, in these modern times, the Africas are imbued with western social value expectations, hence male dominance is power, colonialization is victimization and selling children (a practice found in most cultures throughout history- and a practice that often maintained cultures(and history))is atrocity rather than commerce.

another way of looking at it is westernization or imbuing western values on a nonwestern culture is dominance for power whereas within the culture itself hierarchical practices are traditions to maintain the culture.

in some primitive societies, especially nordic and celtic, women held these positions, the castrated and sacrificed men for social and cultural survival. whether a male child or female child, the sacrifice was part of the belief system, the belief system was (is) the culture. we westerners perhaps do not believe that the blood of a child makes rain- but does that make it not so?

what goes on in LeCarre's Africa though is an invasion- the participants in the trials are not making choices- even if it is to die for a belief- therein to me lies the dominance.

Don't you love the way that Justin sets up his alias as a journalist, Peter Paul Atkinson? He tells Ham that Peter has his absolute confidence and wishes Peter to have power of attorney over his affairs. As we progress we find that Tessa rides alongside Justin, more and more, sometimes joking together, sometimes in quiet solitude. When she slips away from him the pain and grief overtake him "like a cancer he had known all the time was there." He sounds as if he is becoming unhinged or perhaps he is too hinged to Tessa all of a sudden.

LeCarre has written "message" books before. A prime example is "The Little Drummer Girl," a story telling both sides of the Israeli-Arab (particularly the Palestinian) conflict. This new book is a scathing look at how money and politics are so heavily represented in medical health care delivery--never mind which country or what disease--especially in third world countries. LeCarre choses to tell us about the situation in Kenya (and tuberculosis is very real in Africa, even Russia) with a fictional "story."

I've read, and own, every book the man has written. I just love the way he strings sentences together. His main characters come alive for me. In this book, you rather get the idea that Justin thought he had a lot more time than he does to live and create a life with Tessa. Justin is a gardener at heart, he only works at the British Embassy for a living. And he is constant in his love for Tessa, even though he has not had nearly enough time (being English, reserved) to let her really know that. So, digging and sifting he prepares the ground for planting the seeds of discovery, so that Tessa's death will not be just another bit of gossip.

Love all you guys. Do you have as much trouble as I do reading the print on this message board? I wish it was in heavy black like the headings are.

Howzat When asked by an interviewer, LeCarre said that, in this book, he wanted to "prod at the face of capitalism once the shroud of anti-capitlism has been pulled away." He also said that he wanted to write about "our neglect of the wretched of the earth, how promises we made to ourselves during the Cold War, and promises we made to our bought friends, weren't fulfilled." And so he has.

ALF:Yes, and as Justin continues on with his crusade, some of the conversations he holds with his dead wife are vividly poignant, aren't they?

Were any of you surprised to learn that Arnold was gay? I wasn't because there were hints dropped here and there, and of course Tessa's remarks about "double jeopardy" cinches it. (Page 271)

I think it's remarkable that Justin finally succumbs to jealousy--ironically not of an alleged affair between Tessa and Arnold, but jealous because they had kept even that secret from him. "They had deliberately excluded him from their precious circle of two, leaving him to peer after them like a distraught voyeur, never knowing that there was nothing to see and never would be" (page 273) Great writing!

It must have been extremely difficult to be gay in those highly sensitized areas Of Africa like Kenya, where whole sections of of Kenyan society are forced to live in a state of deceit, and in terror of blackmail and arrest. Hear the "comforting" words of President Daniel Arap Moi:"Words like lesbianism and homosexuality do not exist in African languages."

No wonder so many, like Arnold, are forced to stay tightly in the closet.

Lorrie

I never saw where it said he was gay... but I had that feeling!!! As I said, Tessa liked to shock people.

I had a friend who talked with her dead husband... and was angry with him... so I kind of understand Justin talking to her.

howzat: most enjoyable post!

Which browser do you use to view the message boards? Have you checked to see if you can make your settings in black and perhaps bold? I choose to make the font a bit larger than the default here and that makes my reading of the various posts easier.

In my Internet Explorer I can go to Tools/Internet Options/at the bottom is a "button" for colors and one for "fonts" and two others.

If I click on colors, I can make the TEXT be any color I wish...and override whatever color is used here by various posters, etc. I can also set the font I see used..I like Comic Sans MS...and then on my tool bar I can increase the size of that font.

You may wish to see if those kinds of changes would make your reading easier here.

šjane›

I recall one of the village women,I thought it was, who was visited for information by Justin or ????, saying something to the effect that the "affair" or "relationship" would never have happened. That's when it dawned on me that Bluhm was gay.

I wonder if Tessa excluded Justin, or did he simply not ever show any interest in her "causes" so she doesn't "bother" him with talking about something he's not interested in?

I don't think that I, who've never been to Africa, can understand the culture/tribal customs, the thinking, etc. of that continent. I don't understand, for example, the selling of one's children as has just happened and apparently is fairly common. I've heard of the superstitions/"ideas" that concern where these diseases come from...and what the "cures" are thought to be, and I just can't understand all of that.

šjane›

Jane: There you are! I had a feeling that you would come to Howzat's assistance here!

Another thing difficult for me to understand about African culture is that apparently some tribes still practice female circumcision, which I find appalling.

FrancyLou: Did your friend ever mention that her dead husband argued with her? Mine did, for months after he was buried.

I had no inclination that Arnold was not heterosexual until page 269, when Justin discovers a note from Arnold's lover. It was then on looking back, that Justin remembered so many little clues that might have told him more.

Lorrie

I wonder if most Africans are in the same position as Tessa on page 235 - "The British are helpless...The moment she went to the Kenyan police...Her pursuit of the great crime would be stopped in its tracks." Not a climate conducive to making change for sure.

Also, I sorta remember a 20/20 or some TV magazine going into the issue of a Black Man gay in this country was not as acceptable as even the mixed acceptance of a White Man gay in this country. I never dreamed that the AIDS epidemic in Africa was furthered by gay men. In fact all that I've heard it is as Jane said, "the superstitions/"ideas" that concern where these diseases come from...and what the "cures" are thought to be,..." Behavior that supports a male dominated culture that includes a mans right to mate with other women, regardless of marriage.

The message to Tessa on page 233 at first was just something in a book until you really read it as something one of our own loved ones would receive and than the feeling is so violent of being violated.

Barbara, your comments about the male/female cultural problems and the selling-into-slavery cultural problems in Africa were right on.

Have you all been hearing about the ship full of little black girls the U.N. is trying to track down on the high seas? Authorities thought they had found it, but no little girls on board; and they are wondering if it was the wrong ship or if the children had been thrown overboard!

This is today! They had been sold for reselling as SLAVES! BY THEIR PARENTS!

I find it noteworthy that Tessa has aninteresting life with a circle of colleagues and others outside her marriage. This seems to set her apart from the other wives who have lives totally within the marriages and the marriages seem to abide by "corporate rules" of conduct.

"Oh, oh, oh," said Howzat. "Jane has opened a new (seeing) world." Howzat was so grateful, big tears got all over.

Howzat...so delighted you've found the place to customize your computer to your needs! That makes the use of these "machines" so much more effective and easier to use, I think.

I have to go back to the note from Bluhm's lover...I missed that entirely.

I thought that Aids was spread in Africa by heterosexual contact which seems to be more common..ie, multiple partners than I'm use to in rural Iowa, and that the "cures"-- like an infected man sleeping with a virgin (which, according to the TV programs I've seen on the topic or the newsreports is often a female in the 10-13 age range)--of course only tends to spread the disease further and further.

I've read posts by a Swiss-Austrian gal here at SN that tell of life in Nigeria where she lives. Her son, visiting from their home in Austria, is robbed while in a cab. She says the police are often involved, and that many "fines" are assessed and paid to the police around the holidays for the police often go unpaid for months and it's their only way of getting "paid." It's, therefore, hard for me to compare the cultural habits of these countries with what I'm familiar with, and I want to be cautious in the conclusions I draw.

I don't know what Gloria's or Elena's academic backgrounds are, but I suspect they were not in law or science or other academic fields. I think both consider their "careers" to be helping their husbands climb the diplomatic ladder of success.

Back to reading the pages Lorrie refers to.

šjane›

Howzat: I'm still laughing at your post of thanks to our Jane, who is always so helpful with the dreaded technical stuff! You put it so well!

YiLi Lin: There's a vast difference between the life goals of women like Gloria and Elena, say, than those of Tessa and her friends. The former seem to concentrate solely on helping their husbands get ahead, sublimating themselves into their spouses' careers, while Tessa and her friends. Tessa was an active lawyer, and even the other two women we shall meet later were committed to a cause.

Barbara: Yes, the news of that slave ship was horrendous, and it appears to have shocked the world, but like Jane has commented, it's difficult for any of us who have lived such an entirely different lifestyle to understand some of the stark realities of another culture. It made me remember a wonderful movie I saw once long ago about an Inuit (Eskimo) man who killed a visiting missionary, simply because the missionary had politely refused to sleep with the Eskimo man's wife. It was the custom of the natives to offer guests their wives for a night, and to refuse was a deadly insult to the household. Strange, indeed!

Lorrie

YiLi Lin: After reading of that particularly brutal beating that was given to Justin, I kept rereading his thoughts as he lay there battered. Then I remembered your wonderful post way back at #145, where you stated, in part: "Our behavior is who we are, and who we are makes choices about responding to the outer world. Tessa made a choice and so did Justin."

The segment on page 330 about Justin's self-discovery made an impression on me. I think it affects how he continues on with his crusade.

"He lay still again and a terrible pleasure began to wake in him, spreading in a glow of victorious glow of self-knowledge. They did this to me but I have remained who I am. I am tempered. I am able. Inside myself there's an untouched man. If they come back now, and did everything to me again, they would never reach the untouched man. I've passed the exam I've been shirking all my life. I'm a graduate of pain." As you said, I believe this is how Justin is.

Lorrie

Howzat: I recently learned that when viewing your screen and you wish the print to be larger, you hold down the Control button (CTRL) on the bottom left and hit the parenthesis button at the same time. Each time the } is hit the print enlarges. Cool!!

Lorrie: That segment that you just quoted from is one of my favorite passages from this novel. Justin remains from this point on-- intact. "I'm a graduate of pain." He's reached his Nirvana.

Jane: Youre right on the AIDS transmission in Africa. It is the multiple sexual partners that are allowd that has aided the spread of this devestating disease.

Yes, that was such a wonderful quote to remember - whenever "bad things happen to good people" it is so valuable to remember that it doesn't change who we are - and to be a graduate from pain is a statement that really had me thinking. There is all kinds of pain, both physical and emotional. I'm thinking there are huge numbers of people that hold their graduation certificate from the school of pain. So many that it seems to be a universal experience that writers can tap to further their story.

This maybe re-visiting a subject but, in case you did not see the 6 week documentary that Louis Gates filmed, that was aired on PBS last year, it was filmed as Professor Gates further learned of Africa's history. He arrived in Africa to film his 12 month journey which was not his first visit to Africa. As he said in the documentary, he arrived with a pre-conceived concept of the African and White Man's place in the history of the continent. To his shock, that you could see in his face and remarks, his struggle with the information, the shame of some Africans about the Black Slavers that were active long before the White Man carted off enslaved human cargo.

He found a place in East Africa coast where the Africans, men and women, for hundreds of years were brought and stripped to be whipped. If they didn't buckle during the whipping they were sent as a slave to a Moslem nation. If they did buckle they were whipped to death. The Moslems were more highly regarded than Europeans as slave owners because, when the slave was no longer of use they were granted their freedom and could travel back to their homeland. The Moslems were willing to marry the black slave. Marriage or not, there was often children born of this union between the slave and the Moslem owner. When the child served their useful time they were also given their freedom to return to Africa.

In this African community, to this day, more prestige is given to someone that considers themselves as little as 5% Moslem. The area, and in particular a church built several hundred years ago, where the whippings took place, still carry an aura that can be felt of the brutality, pain and humiliation of these captured slaves. The people, in this all black church, pray at all the services for the cleansing and healing of this place.

In another area of Africa, Louis Gates met the, late middle aged, granddaughter of a slaver. Her shame is so great that she cannot talk about her ancestor and particularly her grandfather without tears in her eyes as she has the memory of the brutality and the knowledge that their family's great wealth is built on the commerce of humans that were later traded to slavers on the west coast and shipped to Europe and the Americas.

Louis Gates' shock was that he always thought slavery was a white man's degradation and miss-use of power over Black Africa. This information and additional incidents in the series made him aware that it is and had been, since before the first slave was ever shipped by a white man, an outrageous practice in human misery that is the shame of Africa. This shame is not just his interpretation as a highly educated American but he witnessed the shame among Africans.

Now I must add that poverty does terrible things to people. In Mexico today many a family, especially in the hills, cannot feed their children. Many families handle this by taking the child when they turn 14, most often the young girls, to a bus that stop miles from the village, with a one way ticket to mostly Mexico City, but to a large urban center where the only way for the child to take care of themselves without education and at such a young age, is to become a prostitute.

In Brazil, in Rio, they just dessert their children in the streets. Because the Police don't want begging they shoot them on site. I was told this by the Brazilian people we visited. Because I was shocked I talked to someone back here (US) and they said there was a program on 60 min. about that.

They also told me that if we went down the Amazon river, people would try to hand their babies to us, because they could not take care of them. I was ill so we did not make it to the Amazon, or even close. (Or we would have brought one home someway, lol.)

We saw children of all ages begging everywhere we went. Unless the Military was on every corner with a rifle. The Brazilians that we were visiting told us not to give them anything because instead of the parents working they dressed their children in rags (made them dirty) and sent them out to beg. The children can make more begging than the parents working.

Stories like those leave me burdened with misery. Irregardless of what country it is, misery and human degredation live on. I hate what we do to one another.

http://www.healthcentral.com/news/newsfulltext.cfm?ID=51479&src=n1

South African lawyers head back to court this week to press their case that the world's most powerful drug firms are immorally keeping poor countries from cheap drugs they need to combat AIDS.

ALF:
I FEEL THE SAME, AND STORIES LIKE THE BRAZILIANS AND NOW THE "SLAVE SHIP," IF THERE IS ONE, ONLY ADD TO THE FEELING OF HELPLESSNESS.

FrancyLou:
I'm glad you found that news article--I was going to post it, also. I'm convinced that much of these changes coming about in the African countries are the result of the public outcry and general condemnation after Lecarre's book was published. His is not the only protest of what the pharmaceutical giants have been doing, but for the immediate time frame, is the loudest.

Lorrie

It looks like the only answer is public outcry. Last night saw the Charlie Rose show where he interviews the CEO for General Electric. GE is now the largest Corperation in the world and owns 100s of companies manufactoring very diverse products or offering services from banking to insurance. The man said he wished he had aquired a Drug company when he had the chance and further said, there is no way that can be accomplished now since their wealth is so great that no one (corperation) could afford to buy a drug company out.

No it works the other way around. THEY have been doing the buying of favors, including the present administration, I'm sure.

Francy Lou: "AIDS activists accuse the drug firms of putting profits ahead of lives and have mounted a picket and hunger strike outside the Johannesburg offices of firms including GlaxoSmithKline Plc and Bristol-Myers Squibb . " Does this not fit neatly into our puzzle ??

In the book, when we wonder what drives Justin so relentlessly on his quest, I think LeCarre tells us, in his inimitable way, on page 306.

"He traveled with no bulky papers, no canvas suitcases, laptops, or attachments................Freed of his burden, he moved with a symbolic lightness. Sharper lines defined his features. A stronger light burned behind his eyes. And Justin felt this of himself: he was gratified that Tessa's mission was henceforth his own."

************************************************************** I must confess that it is from this point on, especially after that horrific beating that Justin endures, that the plot of this story becomes murky to me. I know we will be hearing more about the two women Kovacs, and Emerich, but does anyone reading this have a clear idea of what part they play here?

Incidentally, in the scene with Justin and Birgit, and the baby Carl, I found Birgit to be quite endearing, a "small and springy woman with pink cheeks, blonde hair and the stance of a cheerful pugilist." Great description.

Francy Lou and Alf: Yes, much of what LeCarre writes is about how the giant "pharmas" (as LeCarre calls them, have bought out whole governments, and one of the worst, of course, is the corrupt government of Daniel Moi, in Kenya. Our own country is not blameless, either, as you said, Alf.

Lorrie

I've got to tell you this as it is bugging me. I know a group of young nurses who were planning a trip to China before the business last week. Their wish is to go into a culture totally different from our own. When China was nixed they decided they wanted to go on a safari and are now talking about a trip to KENYA. Everytime I read another article I want to call theri mothers. They do what I did for many years, they travel around the country and take 13 week stints whereever they are needed the most. Imagine Kenya! Do you suppose those girls will be safe? I'm certain Moi has fooled the public into believing that Kenya is safe, industrialized and non corrupt for travelers.

Andy, this is absolutely the last place those young girls should be going to! Like you said, you can't believe anything that comes out of a government approved PR spiel from Nairobi! Check out the State Department warnings from here: Kenya Travel

Here is only part of what they say:

"SAFETY AND SECURITY: Kenya became a multi-party democracy in late 1991, and its political institutions are still developing. From time to time, political or ethnic tensions boil over in outbreaks of civil disorder or political violence. Student demonstrations in Nairobi have become increasingly common. Ongoing electricity outages and water rationing may elicit further demonstrations.

In the lead-up to the next national election in 2002, political meetings, demonstrations, and strikes are likely. These are often spontaneous, unpredictable, and sometimes violent. They are normally localized, but they could affect tourists. Travelers should follow the printed and electronic media to keep abreast of where and when any political rallies and demonstrations are likely to occur, and of the potential for confrontation. U.S. citizens should avoid large public gatherings, political rallies and street demonstrations and maintain security awareness at all times.

The area near Kenya's border with Somalia has been the site of a number of incidents of violent criminal activity, including kidnappings. In a late 1998 attack by armed bandits at a resort in the Lamu district near the border with Somalia, U.S. citizens were identified as specific targets, although none were present. There are some indications of ties between Muslim extremist groups, including the Usama Bin Laden organization, and the roving groups of Somali gunmen. Recent information about possible targeting of Americans for kidnapping or assassination in this same area has heightened the U.S. Embassy's concern. In March 1999, a U.S. citizen was killed, reportedly by a Somali national, on the Somali side of the border area.

The sparsely populated northern half of Kenya is an area where there are recurrent, localized incidents of violent cattle rustling, counter-raids, ethnic conflict, tribal or clan rivalry, and armed banditry. Over the last several years, incidents have occurred in the Keiro Valley, Northern Rift Valley sections of Laikipia and Nakuru districts, and other areas north of Mount Kenya. A number of incidents have also occurred near the game parks or lodges north of Mwingi, Meru, and Isiolo frequented by tourists. The precise areas tend to shift with time. For these reasons, U.S. citizens who plan to visit Kenya are urged to take basic security precautions to maximize their safety. Travel to Northern Kenya should be undertaken with at least two vehicles to ensure a backup in the case of a breakdown or other emergency.

Villagers in rural areas are very suspicious of all strangers. There have been several incidents of violence against Kenyan and foreign adults in rural areas who are suspected of child stealing. U.S. visitors to rural areas should be aware that close contact with children, including taking their pictures or giving them candy, can be viewed with deep alarm, and may provoke panic and violence. Adoptive parents traveling with their adoptive child should exercise particular caution, and they are urged to carry complete copies of their adoption paperwork with them at all times................"

I would think twice before wanting to visit this country right now!

Lorrie

I, too, have a friend scheduled to go on an Elderhostel trip to China this month. She asked me if she should cancel and go to Africa instead and I said No Way! Happy to relate she has decided to stick with China.

I am truly puzzled by this 'shock' of finding out that African leaders and parents sold their friends and families long before the white man arrived on the scene. I don't remember where I first learned this, but I have known this forever-I think I learned it in school. This knowledge does not change the shame that ANYONE involved (for whatever reason) should bear. Not much has changed-using poor Africans as 'test cases' is not far removed from the shame of slavery, is it?

Yes, well, now that I am reading bigger, I am reading better. Everywhere. When I discovered this "trick" of Jane's made my reading bigger and better on e-mail and everything else, I just hooped and hollared something awful. Made a real spectacle of myself.

I know the end of the book, so it is not fair that I should say who plays what importance in the plot. But LeCarre always writes in a convulted way, plots within plots.

Tonight's news told about the drug companies dropping their suit against African nations wanting to buy generic drugs to fight AIDS. Seems these drugs (for one person) can be bought for $500 per year as opposed to $10,000 per year from the drug companies that have a monopoly now. Question: Where will the average African, with AIDS, get $500? Question: Why can't we take advantage of the same price break to treat AIDS here in the United States? Most of the cost, here, is borne by Medicare.

Will someone tell me what I'm supposed to put in the space for "Title" when I post a message?

The title space is for what ever you wish howzat.

Today, in the NY Times is the article about the withdrawal of the pharmaceutical industry's lawsuit (since 1997) against S.Africa, that we have been following. Nelson Mandela was listed as the first plaintiff ans since then interest has soared. The pharmas have blocked access to cheaper drugs for AIDS. "Inside South Africa, the end of the lawsuit puts the burden squarely on the strangely inert government to make progress on getting AIDS medicine to the suffering. The drug companies' case concerned only brand-name drugs. It was not blocking South Africa from importing cheap generic versions of AIDS drugs — which can be legal under world trade rules. But South Africa has so far declined. Until last year, this was in part because of trade pressures from Washington and European governments at the behest of the pharmaceutical industry. Those pressures have, mercifully, ended. "

One in 4 So Africans has the AIDS virus & that government is capable of helping. Yet, they've remained passive and even refused to import the low priced drugs offered. they claim it would "balloon" the nations health budget but the flip side of that of course is the factr that the costs are increased if patients are not treated early on in their disease. S. Africa may need assistance from the wealthier nations, but first they must make a greater commitment for their own .

Lorrie: I was flabergasted by that URL you've provided. I forwarded it immediately to the one girls aunt. She will make certain that they review the article and reconsider. It scares me to death. This one gal has the idea that she can change the world anyway and I see nothing but trouble if she should express her views. Thank you.

I learned a great deal as Birgit relates the tale to Justin (pg 318 on) Lara was told by Birgit about the "mystical" authentic history of Dypraxa paper that was received. They believed it was sent by Markus Lorbeer. We learn Lorbeer while in Russia for 6 yrs. was the agent for "certain Western Pharmas", lobbying Russian health officials, selling them Westen drugs. He claims in his confession validation of Dypraxa was thru flattery and bribery. The modern pharmaceutical industry is only 65 yrs. old. It has good men and women, it has achieved human and social miracles but its collective conscience is not developed." Wow! What a statement that is!!!

Wilan: In our circle of peers, we haven't been as much outraged by what's going on in the Third World countries, as we have by the climbing costs of prescription drugs for seniors. Whenever a protest is made by anyone about the escalating cost of medicines, we get the response: "But the pharmaceutical companies have to pay for all the Research and Development!" To me this is an outright falsehood, much of that cost is absorbed by the U.S. government.

howzat: I have this mental picture of you stamping your feet, whooping and hollering, and pointing to your computer screen where you cand read everything in nice big letters!!

In response to that Times article, one of the columnists for Salon has written a timely comment on the South African news:

DRUG COMPANY RIPOFF This is what she says towards the end: "It's now abundantly clear that the decision to allow drug companies to inundate consumers with ads for prescription drugs was a serious mistake. It should be reversed, but that's easier said than done. The industry has covered its legislative flank by making extremely generous contributions to elected officials on both sides of the aisle -- more than $18.6 million during the last campaign alone.

But the industry's surrender in South Africa shows that public pressure and grass-roots protests really work. So let's build on this victory and rid our airwaves of the plague of prescription drug ads."

Let's keep up the pressure!

Lorrie

This was published after Rezulin was taken off the market and a number of deaths were reported due to the drug's side effects:

Dr. Richard C. Eastman

The U.S. government's top diabetes researcher helped guide a $150-million federal study involving the diabetes pill Rezulin while serving as a paid consultant for the drug's manufacturer, Warner-Lambert Co. The tie raises questions of whether his outside consulting was in conflict with his official duties.

Age: 52
Government position: Director of the division of diabetes, endocrinology and metabolic diseases at the National Institutes of Health
Government salary: $122,000 annually
Government role: Oversaw selection of Rezulin for the government's study of whether adult-onset diabetes can be prevented
Company position: Consultant to Warner-Lambert and faculty member of the "Rezulin National Speakers Bureau," which urged doctors to use Rezulin
Company income: Thousands of dollars
Company role: Praised Rezulin in a Warner-Lambert press release, prepared research, gave lectures and helped with drug promotion

Researched by JANET LUNDBLAD / Los Angeles Times Sources: National Institutes of Health, Warner-Lambert Co., U.S. and European patent records, Photo: www.ndei.org/newslet2b.htm

Lorrie

ALF- are those nurses tourists or are they providing a service through their travels- if a service it is possible africa needs them.

I returned my book to the library awhile ago, so I am not sure what chapter I am referring to- so if i've jumped ahead, please excuse--but I was rather intrigued by the wipeout of Tessa's computer, when Guido could not restore it because a 'satellite' found them so to speak through the transmission and was programmed to erase the hard drive. gives one pause and in fact makes me rather comfortable being a 'senior' but hoping i will be vigilant in having my children ?grandchildren? question and be outspoken about the role of technology and individual freedom. it is possible the concept of individual freedom will become archaic, perhaps die with our generation. young people will think these kind of activities are "normal".

think we need to be very proactive to preserve what many of us have devoted lifetimes to develop- public radio and television, public protest, grass roots activism- it is so easy for us to look to other cultures and other governments and say that can't happen here, i hope what we all learned here from the novel, links etc. we will actively take to the public forum. i have already contacted my pension investment people and asked them to provide me with infor about where my "pre tax contribution" is directed- and yes, that is scary to take a stand about these issues

Yili Lin:

Yes, it was disturbing, wasn't it? To think that, with the aid of modern technology, we can be monitored and traced with such unerring accuracy, like the stalkers in the book who followed Justin!

That message that LeCarre sends us, alone, should alert us all into becoming more vigilant about protecting our freedoms. Well said, Yili Lin!

********************************************************************

Siince we are now going into the final phases of the book, all restrictions are off, and we can discuss any part of the novel that we wish. For those of you who have already read the book, I wanted to ask this: What was your perception of the character of Lobeer? Did you think he was sincere in his newly found religion?

I thought the confrontation between Justin and Sandy in Chapter 21 was quite dramatic. Woodrow's callousness was never more evident than when he said, "Drugs have to be used on somebody, haven't they? I mean, who do you choose, for Christ's sake? Harvard Business School? I mean. Jesus. Foreign Office isn't in the business of passing judgment on the safety of nonindigenous drugs, is it? We're not paid to be bleeding hearts. We're not killing people who wouldn't otherwise die. I mean, Christ, look at the death rate in this place. Not that anybody's counting."

Ugh!

Lorrie

I think lots of people who get caught up in events are sincere in their remorse - though often with hindsight- it is often not until after .... that one sees the damage or coercion or compromise. but also with remorse sometimes comes distancing- perhaps a psychological mechanism for one's survival.

Yilin: No these nurses are not visiting Kenya to lend their professional assistance. They are a group of young RN's who want to see the world and visit a different type of culture, so they decided a safari would be applicable here and chose Kenya. Just like that. I have made certain that the information that Lorrie provided us with was forwarded to them. It scares me witless.

Lorrie: I see Lorbeer as a fanatic, an over zealous profiteer. He can know excuse his deplorable actions all in the name of "guilt." (pg.388) "It is totally scientific position. If God exists, he (Lorbeer) will be gratefu. If not, it is irrelevant." ,

What ever became of Kioko after his "trumped up" arrest for mugging a white tourist was he ever mentioned again?

Which way could it have gone after J. is told by Donahue, "There's a contract out of you as soon as you set foot in Africa and here you are in Africa with both feet, Every renegade mercenary and gang boss in the business dreams of getting you in his sight. Half a million to make you dead, a million to make it look like suicde" . Did anybody have any doubt as to the way this would end after that?

Sure did not like it! (contract out on Justin)
Discusting that Sandy is sooo cold
Lorbeer seems to be trying to be a better person (I agree with hedging his bets, on beliveing in God all of a sudden). At least he is making an effort to make right his wrong.

seeing the world- how wonderful- heard well sort of background did not pay full attention, today on public radio an interview with a women imprisoned in morocco for 21 years- what struck me was the matter of fact tone she used to talk about his experience and the hunger- literal hunger without food for this entire period.

wonder if lecarre was also letting us know that nonwestern cultures and in the case of africa- a whole continent- is ripe for the picking, because the technology nations have their stranglehold on the earth's resources. with so many people on this planet farming, fishing etc. have become technological events. when people are "hungry" whether for food or other aspects of survival, theywelcome the gestures from oppressors- believing that a) the item offered will alleviate the hunger or b) life can't be much worse than it is now so ...

Justin at last meets up with Lorbeer who explains the World Food Program to him and he wonders if Lorbeer weeps four times a day. "Women are the only hope of Africa Lorbeer insists. The men can't be trusted and only the women do God's work there. " Is that the same story that Tessa bought into? I thought that women were of NO coonsideration at all in Africa. Where did i get that?

I thought he, Lorbeer, was saying "Women will change the world for the better" "Men will destroy it".....

Alf- i think lots of modern literature looks to women to "save'- i wonder if that is a function of the history in literature where women had no place or if it simply means that the men have not done such a super job and in 'stories' we are looking for happy endings so the only gender left is women.

for lecarre, though, lorbeer and others are not Africans, so though many african cultures do not provide opportunity for women to give voice to life, the european interlopers would make this cultural faux pas.

however, i must admit i thought that most of the male characters in this book (probably all i'm trying to be polite

) were a bunch of male ..........!

perhaps because i often see dominance as masculine, but then i must remember my work life and the role women play in the dominant/submission game.

This is great! Everyone is responding so nicely, and I'm so proud of you all who have finished the book early on for keeping quiet about the ending.

Still, I am at a loss. On page 470 Lorbeer is confessing to Justin about what Tessa and Arnold had taped, previously. When Justin asked him what they had said they were going to do with their information, Lorbeer told him they planned to give it to the one man in Kenya they trusted. Richard Leakey.

My question is: where in the book is there any more mention of Leakey? Was that where they were headed when Tessa was killed? What happened to the two tapes? I wonder just what Leakey's involvement is, if any. I realize he's one of the real characters in the novel, and LeCarre has to tread softly there, but I feel as though something's missing.

Okay, back to these last chapters to try to find something more on Leakey.

Alf, I couldn't find any more mention of the poor child Kioko, either.

Lorrie

Kioko was falsely accused of a crime and sentenced to 20 years in prison. The goons destroying the evidence of anyone who died while taking the drug (I can't remember the name of it) were very thorough. All paperwork, witnesses, in one case a whole village, were "disappeared." When Kioko went into the prison, he was as lost as if he were dead. What happened to everybody else starts on page 472.

From the comments, I am hearing a group of people who care about human rights, the environment, and fair play. This book must have weighed heavy on your minds. Never expect LeCarre to make you feel good.

What shall we read next? A travel story like Jeffery Tayler's journey across Siberia by hitching rides, "Siberian Dawn"? Or a memoir by Larry Woiwode (pronounced Why Would E) "What I Think I Did?"

I moved my computer and I've got the phone line strung across the room, so I have to be careful not to trip over it til the phone man comes to put me in a new jack. Wish I was handy. Take care.

Phewww I went into my e-mail for the first time since I'm here at my daughters (arrived Thursday) there were 5729 e-mails. Some finance company telling me about refinancing my home at a low interest rate sent over 5700 e-mails -- I am furious - called and of course at 1:00 in the morning there is no one there, but their mashine got an earful. You just know they are not going to own their responsiblity. I can hear it already "the machine was stuck."

It has taken me over 2 hours to delete them. Thank goodness I retrieved them here because, on my home system I could only do one at a time where here my daughter's, her setup allowed me to do a page of 20 at a time. This is worse than junk mail - at least that I could dispose of quickly with a toss into the garbage.

Ok the story has me whirling and realizing how great the power is out there of many a large corperation. They may be a huge group of individuals that provide work for millions but there seems to be a mind set within the systems and if there is no integrity in the mind set of a few the whole corperation seems to be affected.

The book was a winner till the end - for me it fell flat. Lorbeer may have hidden himself in the jungle to try and 'do good' but, it seemed to me he was in too deep to be just left off the hook. Yet there wasn't a clear connection between him and the killers either. Justin being killed was another trite ending I thought. OK the character did what he had to do and he had no other purpose but it seemed a whimpy way to end the book. I couldn't figure out what happened to Sandy and Gloria nor - oh I don't have my book with me to be more accurate - what was her name the one that was part Indian and a friend to Tessa. I think, if I read it correctly, Le Carré was inferring that the English Govenment was behind some of the power plays that had Tessa Killed.

Le Carré seemed to bring in a few other themes that ended dead in their tracks. No more was said about the homosexual bit in Africa and very little about AIDS and who was it that beat Justin up in Germany, what happened to the young woman and child in Germany and the woman in Canada. There seemed to be lots said and lots of connections toward the end but, it all seemed anti-climactic to me like a tire that didn't go flat with a shout but one that sort of fizzled losing its air slowly.

I couldn't figure out if the tribal chiefs were simply taking advantage of the local situation by skimming off the top of the air drops or if they also had a part in the big picture that seemed to involve, governments, drug companies, especially the 3Bs, and all kinds of police plus the secret group that began with the initial K something. The bad guys all still seemed too sinister in their hazy identification where as, those that were identified seemed small potatoes and no longer much of a threat.

I thought it was interesting the way Kenny was stripped of his power. that was the only character that I thought was fully explained what and how - what did him in and how it was accomplished.

I've always been curious to know what corperations own what companies and how they influence polititions and now I feel bent on really learning how the world society works. The little research I did do proved to me it isn't that easy to learn the connections and who owns what. I just wish I knew what dog watch groups are out there - how many - who do they watch - what information they have that is available to the public.

I'm still convinced that all victims only achieve relief, achieve equity by going after it themselves. In order for a revolution to take place, not necessarily a reveolutionary war but a revolution to the system, I believe large segments of the population need to be aware and educated. In order for schools to be set up and for the education to sink into the behavior within the villages could take decades - I think communication is the answer and that kind of communication I think can best take place through TV which, if that were to be possible it certainly would change the face of Africa. All of Africa would have to have wire strung throughout the continent.

As the human race advances there seems to be available more equality or rather, equity would probably be a more realistic view. The more primitive the people the more they can be manipulated by power from without as well as among their own. Choosing to believe and act from some of their folk ways, sometimes colorful practices, they are shooting themselves in the foot, handling contemporary issues with these traditional practices. Unfortunatly when one part of the culture changes there seems to be other valuable parts of the culture that also change. But without change a whole continent is doomed to extinction. Already there is a missing generation with many of the children doomed to death before the age of 20. And so in one way or another the culture is being lost. Now the lose is not benefiting anyone. A loss that is because of change seems to me at least offers something for the exchange of the loss.

I thought the ending was that the Bad Guys won...and won...and won and all the good guys lost and lost and lost. As someone said above Chapter 25 spells it all out.

I also am at a loss about Leakey ...I don't see any connection to Tessa and her cause...unless she hoped to convince him to speak out and thought he was famous enough to be listened to by the outside world and too famous to just "disappear" in an accident that nobody bothered to follow up on.

šjane›

Concise, precise and direct thoughts there, Barb. I thank you and I quitte agree about these sub-plots bieng interjected, i.e. Russian planes, oil industry, the old ralways protected by wild horsemen, Muslims vs. Christians, etc. Are these the new attacks that will be encountered after this Dypraxa nightmare simmers down?

The forces of darkness surround the entire last section of this novel. Lorbeer and his "extended family" remain indignant and claim no responsibility as he was "only obeying order as he tells J., I was commanded by the great god Profit!!"

Lorrie: Justin sees Lorbeer as a man terrified by what he resolutely forbids himself to see. (pg. 469) Marcus Lorbeer is burning at the stake and he finally realizes just who Peter is. Yes, Leaky was mentioned at the beginning of the novel. What amazes me is WHY he wasn't developed further in the plot line. He is a real person. Wasn't he under the arm of Moi, early on in Moi's regime? Tessa and Bluhme were on their way to see him at the time of their death.

Chapter 24 ens with these words. And finally the stars, close enough to touch. Hello!! Is that a proper sentence for a reknown writer such a LeCarre. The point, I understand, the wording leaves me a bit incredulous. Ole Justin is closer to the stars thatn he knows at this point.

Jane has made a good point. Do you think that they were just using Leakey as a cover to facilitate their snooping around?

LOSERS! Ah yes, all losers from Coleridge, Pellegrin, Sir KK, down to the cops ,poor little Ghita and finally Justin who "peers into the pale mist and sees Arnold and Tessa in their jeep."

I'm not sure KK is a loser...he gets his Lordship...and his title. He doesn't seem to suffer, unless it's monetarily...though he may have lots squirreled away..and Pellegrin is a winner, I think. A bad guy who gets a managerial job with big bucks, I'm sure, for his past "cooperation." As I see it:

Sandy gets THE JOB at the High Commission...against all past practices...Coleridge is gotten rid of and smeared in the process so his career is over; Sir Pellegrin is "rewarded" with a senior managerial post with Karen Vita Hudson (which I think is the real 3Bs), good ol Kenny Curtiss gets to be a Lord, Rob's and Lesley's careers are over as is Frank Gridley's. Ghita's career is also over.

howzat: Ha ha ha, before you go tripping over that telephone line and hurt yourself, I want to remind you that the next scheduled book for our Book Club Online is The Blind Assasin by Margaret Atwood which will begin May 1. If you don't care for that selection, be sure and check out the Coming Attractions on our main page. BOOKS AND LITERATURE

I know you're a LeCarre fan. Is this one of his better books, in your opinion?

Lorrie

I was very disappointed in the end. Very flat. Lots of loose ends.

If you are fond of an ending that turns out to be like fairy-tale endings, this book is not for you. I can see some of you were terribly disappointed, it looked as though once again evil triumphs over good! Do you think this is why LeCarre wrote it this way? To show the futility of making even the smallest waves against these giant corporations and corrupt governments?

I don't think so. I think he wanted everyone to become so indignant that there would be a wave of revulsion over what's happening, and if that is so then he has won his point. If nothing else, this book has alerted the sensibilities of many, and from what I have been reading, quite a few organizations have taken up the gauntlet.

****************************************************************** Just when you think you've really had it with the saintly Tessa and the sometimes pallid Justin, it's refreshing to come across a passage like the meeting between the sickly British Intelligence agent Donahue and the unspeakable Kenny K. Kurtis says: "I buy lunch for the boys who vote your money. I give them binges on my f-----ing boat. Girls. Caviar. Bubbly. They get offices from me election time. Cars, cash, secretaries with good tits. I do business with companies that make ten times the money your shop spends in a year. If I told them what I know about your lot, you'd be history. So f--- you, Donahue!

Isn't this deliciously disgusting? A bit vehement, perhaps, but a welcome change, nonetheless.

Lorrie

ALF:I liked your interpretation of that raunchy character Lorbeer. I think you read that character pretty well, and do you have a feeling that he also turned Justin in after their meeting? How else would the muderers know where Justin was going?

Jane: I feel as you do that the bad guys certainly don't appear to be "losers" in the sense of materialistic rewards. And I wonder if LeCarre chose to minimize Leakey's involvement because just about at the time of the writing, Richard Leakey had some problems with the Kenya government. (More on that later)

Lorrie

Richard Leakey was supposedly a champion for democratic government, and I think this news reports tells it:

THE NATION (Kenya)Jan.04, 2001
Time for Democracy
In the last ten years Richard Leakey's concern for his country and its people has led him to champion democratic politics and open government in Kenya. He founded the reformist political party 'Safina' in 1995 and worked to form an effective opposition alliance. His trenchant views - he said in an interview in 1996 that he felt frustrated "that a country with tremendous resources is still being so badly governed - there is no real democracy in Kenya and at the end of the century it is time there was" - brought him into conflict with the government of Daniel arap Moi (successor to President Kenyatta).

However, this principled stand did not stop his return to frontline public affairs with his re-appointment to the KWS in 1998 and recognition of his great integrity and courage in his appointment as the Head of Public Service in July 1999. This appointment, which may seem strange at first to northern European eyes, means Leakey's reformist view is being recognised at the heart of government.

What makes Richard Leakey's recent life all the more extraordinary is that in 1993, he lost both his legs in a plane crash. Undaunted by this horrifying accident, he has continued to work tirelessly for the two goals which drive him on - the improvement of the human condition as well as a greater understanding and awareness of the natural world upon which that improvement depends.

However, Leakey resigned his post early in this year, and the department he headed was disbanded. There is still an apparent conflict with the government of Daniel Moi.

Lorrie

Hi My computer is in the hospital (hope it isn't with the 3 bees) I am using an old antiquated computered resurrected from "things to get rid of box" Buuuut I just had to get in on this discussion. This the first LeCarre book I've read but not the last one. Took me 3 weeks to get it from the library so I've been doing some fast reading. I listened to the audio tape but that leaves you hanging, although the author does an excellent job with the various characters. You sure do get entwined with The complexity of the story. I guess I am disappointed in the way it turned out although I wasn't expecting a happy ending as there were warnings all through the book that this was not going to be a good overcomes evil sort of finish. It just seemed like all of a sudden Lecarre had to get the story overwith and rushed the ending a wee bit. Or is that typical of his books. It is a book that makes you think and my mind is tired. Hopefully it will recover shortly as I am now tackling the " Tailor of Panama"......Hi Andy, I made it...Aren't you proud of me. We agreed it would be deep thinking.....Now if I can get this posted from this contraption I am using. Has a habit of freezing up on me. Wish me luck. I think the 3 bees are after me.....

Hey, CMac: It's good to hear from you, and I think you were not alone when you say you didn't lke the ending of the book. Yes, most of us were pretty sure nothing good would come of all Justin's searching, but it did seem disappointing.

Personally, I was quite touched by Justin's last travels. By that time I had found the "stuffy" Justin to be quite endearing, and his obvious devotion to his dead wife was really very touching. I must admit that I shed a tear or two at the very ending, but the romantic thought of Justin and Tessa meeting again was nice, if you believe in that sort of thing.

I, too, am going to get Tailor of Panama for two reasons: 1. I like all LeCarre's books, like you do, and 2. they made a movie out of it which is supposed to be quite good.

I've been asking most of LeCarre's fans: Do you think this book was one of his better ones?

Hope your sick computer gets out of hospital soon!

Lorrie

Honestly, no, I liked his George Smiley spy novels better. I kept looking for that sort of intrigue/espionage, and I didn't find it in CG.

š jane›

This was my first LeCarre book and I am afraid that it fell flat for me, too. I had said in one of my posts that evil DOES exist, good guys do get 'it' in the end and powerful people with money can do almost anything-this book seems to bear me out. I guess I don't like that at all-I was so disappointed in the ending. I am still looking for the hero to come riding in at the last minute! I KNOW that he/she does not, but I am still hoping! I intend to try more of John LeCarre-his characters are marvelous.

Could it be that this is perphaps the beginning?

Kenya Readies Aids Drugs Law

Monday, April 23, 2001

Kenya has drafted a bill to legalise the import of cheap generic HIV/Aids drugs, the government says.

Health Minister Professor Sam Ongeri said brand-name drugs protected by "unrealistic" laws are "unaffordable".

He said the law would not violate patent-protection provisions of the World Trade Organisation, of which Kenya is a member.

Professor Ongeri's announcement comes only days after a group of pharmaceutical companies dropped a lawsuit to prevent South Africa from importing generic Aids drugs.

Thirty-nine drugs companies that were contesting the South African law unconditionally dropped their case on Wednesday.

Hundreds of deaths daily:

Professor Ongeri said that 700 Kenyans died of Aids each day, and that 2.2 million people in the country were infected with HIV, the virus that causes Aids.
He said up to 50% of hospital beds in the country are occupied by Aids patients.

The drugs companies had taken the South African Government to court in an attempt to block legislation which gives it powers to import or manufacture cheap versions of brand-name drugs.

The World Health Organisation and the International Aids Society, which represents specialist Aids doctors and researchers, welcomed the legal settlement.

BBC News Online

Here in Minnesota, people were outraged over the death of a Minnesota man, a Catholic priest and a missionary in Kenya. Senator Paul Wellstone was asked to look into this matter----devotees of Father Kaiser in Kenya are positive that he was murdered. Please click on to this factual story, then read my next post.

Death of an American Priest

John LeCarre mentions this priest in the very last chapter where he makes his remarks, but I believe he was fairly guarded in his opinion.

Lorrie

"60 Minutes" is doing a piece on Father Kaiser which will air possibly April 29th. We won't know for sure until 3 or 4 days before the air date.

The FBI reported April 18 that Fr. John's death was "consistent with a suicide". All who knew and loved John know this is a mistake. He warned us that his enemies would try to make his death look like a suicide. As for his "manic depression" being the cause - the family knows the details and circumstances surrounding the two episodes the FBI is referring to. To use his reaction to extreme circumstances against him is a travesty. He was a passionate man, period.

"I appeal to the American people not to let the State Department or particularly the FBI be hoodwinked by Moi.".................... Paul Muite, a prominent attorney and opposition member of parliament, who said Kaiser told him in late July about death threats.

Saturday, March 24, 2001

Doubts over Fr Kaiser's report By KEVIN J. KELLEY, NEW YORK

A Federal Bureau of Investigation report to be released soon will probably draw no firm conclusions on the cause of Fr John Kaiser's death last August, reports a newspaper published in the priest's home state.
Citing unnamed US officials, The Minneapolis Star Tribune reports that even after sophisticated forensics tests are completed in the next few weeks, the FBI is unlikely to conclude that Fr Kaiser was murdered. "Nor is it likely to name any suspects," says the story appearing in the Star Tribune's March 18 edition.
The bureau may simply pass on its findings to Kenyan authorities without recommending any particular course of action, the newspaper suggests.
American investigators are said to have painstakingly reconstructed the final hours of Fr Kaiser's life. But that careful chronicling, along with information gathered in the course of more than 100 interviews in Kenya, has produced no breakthroughs, say officials interviewed by The Star Tribune.
One such source is quoted as saying that the FBI has found no evidence pointing to any specific suspects, "let alone a murder conspiracy on the part of the Kenyan government."
The FBI's report will also not suggest that Fr Kaiser committed suicide, The Star Tribune says. The findings of the autopsy conducted by Kenya's chief Government pathologist, Dr A. O. Kirasi Olumbe, suggest that the fatal gunshot wound to the priest's head could not have been self-inflicted. "And the FBI," says a law enforcement source quoted in the story, "have a lot of confidence in the person that did the autopsy. FBI agents thought it was quite good. It was thorough." At the same time, other factors may cause the FBI to refrain from explicitly ruling out suicide.
Fr Kaiser's erratic behaviour in the hours prior to his death has led to speculation that he may have been suffering psychological distress. The priest's sister, Carolita Mahoney, told The Star Tribune that Fr Kaiser had been diagnosed as manic-depressive during a visit to his home state of Minnesota in the 1980s. She says he was prescribed lithium, a powerful mood-stabilising drug. But Fr Kaiser "didn't seem to need it much in Africa," Ms Mahoney told The Star Tribune in regard to the lithium. In any event, she believes that her brother was murdered. Fr Kaiser's agitated state during his last hours "did not signal a man about to kill himself," said Ms Mahoney, "but rather a man who knew he was about to be killed.

The truth about Fr Kaiser's death may remain elusive, a US government official suggested to The Star Tribune. "It's a situation where we just may never know how this guy came to be deceased."

Copyright Nation Newspapers Limited

Wow this story hit on so many real buried truths doesn't it - where I didn't expect a happy ever after ending, to me, killing off JUSTIN supplies just that - it is over with no where to go - One idea I would rather have seen is he escape to his Island where surrounded by family friends he continues to battle the forces of evil.

True, Barbara, it would be nice to think about Justin sitting out his remaining years on their island, surrounded by friends, as you said, fighting the forces that were his wife's downfall! But then there wouldn't be the suspenseful plot, would there?

Like most of our readers here, I had a strange feeling of disapppointment when I read the ending. LeCarre's explanation of what happened to all the villains in the piece was discouraging and a real let down. If only only one of them had gotten fired, or publicly condemned, or shamed into retiring, or kicked out of the Government, or even gently chided! Not rewarded!

Lorrie

I really agree ! Justin could have gone on fighting... did not mean we had to go on with him. It did tie up all the ends but killing him.. but why does it have to be the end. Why can not someone keep fighting!

Lorrie, Jane, and all the other disappointed guys and gals, no I don't think this was one of LeCarre's best efforts. TCG was sort of a replay of "Our Game," about the Russian government's war with the Checheins. LeCarre pillories, more often than not, the British government, espically MI5, MI6, the Foreign Office, and most British Embassy personnel. He has hardly any trust of governments. He is especially good at showing the pettiness of the people who work for government, in their never ending scramble to rise as high up the work ladder as they can.

Oh me. I must confess that when the Berlin Wall came down, the first thought I had was, what will John LeCarre and Len Deighton do now? I'm not as ashamed about that as I should be. LeCarre, in a speech at Johns Hopkins, told about how "one day Smiley and all his cohorts just up and left my brain, not to return, so far." About every two years I reread all the Smiley books, sometimes front to back, where Smiley and Connie get older and fatter, sometimes the other way where they get younger and skinnier. Sort of like "The Three Bears" for grownups. Len Deighton wrote 9 books about Bernard Sampson.

When I read something that takes me to the place being written about and puts me alongside the people so I am totally inside the story being told, it's too delicious. Sadly, this is not a common experience. "The Constant Gardener" was not a great book, but if it gets a dialog going about prescription drug companies, then that's a good thing.

howzat: You and I like the same kind of espionage/thrillers...and have read the same ones. I haven't found any recently that grabbed me like the Smiley and Sampson ones did....or early Ludlum. His last Prometheus ??? was far better, I thought, than all those Borne things he pumped out.

Thanks for the info on LeCarre's lecture. Maybe Smiley is too old to come back now...and Fiona as well.

šjane›

Now that we are coming to the end of this discussion, it would be nice if everybody would give his or her comments---particularly I want to ask you all: Do you think LeCarre's book will have any effect at all on what was transpiring in the Third World countries at the time that he wrote this novel? In other words, do you think it will make a difference, or will things just go on as they always have? Let's hear from you all!

Lorrie

Jane, and Howzat: Weren't those books by Len Deighton about Bernard Sampson, whose wife was a Communist? Do you remember the names?

Lorrie

Lorrie...Len Deighton's Bernard Sampson series...yes, with the wife named Fiona...whose "beliefs/ideology" were always under examination...which side was she on, etc.

This from an unofficial Len Deighton website:
http://www-staff.mcs.uts.edu.au/~tomlin/LD/

The first of the Bernard Samson series; this first trilogy was made into a TV series.
Berlin Game 1984.
Mexico Set 1985.
London Match 1986.

-----
Spy Hook 1988.
Spy Line 1989.
Spy Sinker 1990

----------
Faith 1994
Hope 1995
Charity 1996

šjane›

Hmmm, do I think CG will make a difference? Probably not, but it may make people start to ask some questions and to do some deeper digging and to pay more attention to the lawsuit kind of thing that was filed in South Africa. Maybe eventually, it will....as Silent Spring did.

šjane›

cmac, you imp: what a delight you are. 3 Bees has your 'puter ? Perhaps it will medicate with something otr than that dreaded Dypraxa LeCarre dreamed up. We are always happy to hear from you.

Lorrie: Are you trying to tempt me with another book of LeCarres? Reading FatherKaiser's story is like reviewing the CG.

Wilan: I am sorry that you din't like the ending. It was perfect for Justin though wasn't it? How else could he have gone on? Not only how-- but where? Certainly not the island, it would have been unbearable without his Tessa. He sought her and he found her. End of story. I just couldn't see him returning to his prior academia.

Will CG make a difference? No! Not any significant difference. The impact is thru education. Let us all educate the ill informed about the Pharmas and the atrocities inflicted on the people in these third wolrd countries.

I agree Education is the key.

Yes, Jane, I remember now how enthralled I was at that TV special that ran on PBS, with all Len Deighton's characters. I like his books almost as much as LeCarre's. We're not the only ones who think this author is great. Read this:

Le Carre, like most of the great masters of British fiction, is acutely aware of class and its importance in forming human character and behavior. Most American writers don't understand class and are embarrassed by it, and so either don't deal with it, or deal with it in simplistic good-buy/bad guy terms--usually with the upper class characters being the bad guys. Le Carre, like Trollope, Dickens, and Jane Austen, has an enormously sensitive feel for the depth of class distinction and its power to form character and behavior. Smiley is a gentleman; Jerry Westerby is not. That doesn't mean that either of them is good or bad, but it is extremely important..........................Jack Cobb, from his book, “Understanding John LeCarre” ....................................................................

No, ALF, but I suspect that eventually there will be a book written about this murdered priest, Father Kaiser. I do know that here in Minnesota many people are concerned about the "investigation" of his death. Dealing with the corrupt government of Daniel Moi doesn't help, either.

There is supposed to be a segment about Father Kaiser on 60 minutes this coming Sunday evening. (April 29) Do turn on and watch it--it should be very enlightening.

Lorrie

In 1997, John LeCarre carried on a vituperative feud with another writer, Saloman Rushdie, author of "Satanic Verses," via letter-writing in the pages of The Guardian. The London Times has posted a story about this feud that I found hilarious. Read about it:

BITTER FEUD BETWEEN LECARRE AND RUSHDIE

I think the only way books like LeCarre's will make a difference is if the we, the readers, make new choices and speak out in an empowering way-

Perhaps what we learn is how under the guise of safety and concern, governments and power abusers take advantage of our needs and turn them for profit and various inhumanities.

I have posted before that I am concerned that this is an underlying motive to engendering "fear" about natural healing substances- herbs and tonics our grandmothers raised us on- there is big $$$ in natural products (the storebought kind) so these same pharma's are 1) buying up the smaller reputable companies and 2) paying for smear campaigns- they purchase state votes under the notion of regulation- after what the tobacco industry did to tobacco products though I think we all learned who needs the regulation! And one can only wonder what these companies will add to natural products and who they will test the additives on?

Oh, Yili Lin, how depressing! And now the "natural" products, too?

Frankly, all these reports coming to life since we started reading this book, and the innumerable items of interest in this subject published so far, have left me feeling very disillusioned. Then reading the end of this book, how LeCarre depicted what happened to all the evildoers in his story (all those plushy "rewards!") made it all seem so fruitless.

I wonder if a handful of outraged letters from a small group of concerned book-lovers will do anything at all? I can't see where we can find anything or anyone strong enough to fight these giant corporations. Even dedicated doctors who sincerely care about what happens to the health of millions of people can be bought, as we have discovered. I can't see any changes in the future.

Lorrie

Hi,Computer cured. Not influenced by Three Bees. I tried a letter on old computer and it lookis as if it never arrived or it may come next month as it is so slow. Sick one back from intensive care and still recovering........ You guys did a great job but is this book fiction, I thought it was..... Don't know if it will have any influeance on the pharmaceutical jungle as these people probably never read novels...but maybe a letter written by and from SeniorNet might have some effect or is it affect...what do you think Lorrie and Andy...(it's the IMP in me) Not sure I'm crazy about LeCarre but I shall give him one more chance as I am reading The Tailor of Panama...I also like Ludlam better as a spy writer. Enjoyed. Keep up the good work. And Andy I shall be in "Constant Touch" with you via EMail now that computer has recovered fully....

Feeling like lighting one candle in so much darkness is overwhelming I agree - to match power with power, no, I agree even seniornet does not have that kind of clout - as a group of seniors we did not seem to have enough knowledge or organization to even affect the future of Medicare or the prescription drug benefit that was promised during pre-election. And so rather than becoming discouraged I wonder if we are better off picking our targets - and no we are not going to leave this discussion I am sure as a committed committee against the pharmaceutical industry.

BUT we can watch with new eyes because of reading this book. Some ideas - we could letter write where it may do some good - how about to the TV stations and networks that advertise the drugs - they live on our being satisfied - let them and the producers of shows that champion Bayer products or the benefits of specific medications realize we are unhappy with their choice of sponsor - appeal to their sense of humanity allowing them to know, where we would like to enjoy their program, we choose not to purchase the products advertised and if the show continues to show these advertisements we will not watch the program - an e-mail campaign to announce this letter would do no harm either - and how about the newspapers and magazines - they also feature adds from drug companies.

A flow of letters to our congressmen and woman would also have a dent of an affect. At this point I think a dent maybe all we could celebrate. I am so reminded of that book out in the late 40s about lighting one candle.

I also think where few of us are able or capable of making real change for the families and children suffering in this world. But we certainly can affect one child who may be the one to grow up and benefit the world by bringing a new scientific cure or economic system or means to educated the many living in these desperate circumstances.

This could be a neighbor child that we would do something with regularly and therefore have in time a dialogue about what matters, to helping children in a nearby school read or starting a pen pal weekly writing program with a child that at first the letters exchanged may only be about their interests but gradually, the influence would be there.

I've never contributed the small monthly sum often asked to sponsor a child but now I will find out more about this - I think I remember it is $35 a month - some of us could even get a couple of friends to share the monthly expense. None of this directly affects the drug industry but it does affect the education of those that we could do something about.

Unfortunately, we all would wish that life was easier and it wasn't a constant fight for human dignity. But it appears that is a fantasy that is fed by those that have the money, power and therefore the ability to keep secret the forces that would harm us.

Alf-I was not happy with the ending, but I knew this was the only way it could go. It really seems so hopeless, sometimes. I have a son with AIDS. They sent him home to die four years ago and two days later the drug that is extending and seems (so far) to be saving his life came on to the market. Reading this 'fictional' story left me with very mixed emotions. I am sure that is the main reason that I did not like the ending. I don't like to think that his life was saved by the testing and experimenting on so many helpless people. I know this was on tuberculosis (?) but I am positive that it is being done with AID drugs. The realization that this is how THEY do it was startling to say the least. I like to think that I am realistic and pragmatic, until reality sucker punches me! No, I do not think things will really change-They will just find another way to prey on the helpless! I truly wish it were not so and have very personal, mixed up emotions about these facts!

Barbara:
That was a very thoughtful post. I'm inclined to agree about what you said about "picking our targets." We are all avid magazine and newspaper readers, aren't we? And aren't we all sometimes almost glued to our TV sets? Well, writint to those producers and editors certainly wouldn't hurt, and who knows, might even get them to think twice about accepting such blatant new medicines ads.
********************************************************************** Wilan:

It couldn't have been easy for you to share that information with us about your son. Let's all give thanks that he is well, no matter what the circumstances of how he remains well today. Yes, in the book they mention TB, but in real life LeCarre himself admitted he actually had meant Aids. I can well understand your mixed emotions in this particular story. Thank you so much for your post.

Lorrie

I think now would be a good time to tell all you lovely people who have joined us in talking about this book how much I enjoyed being a participant and sharing these thoughts with you. Your posts have all been truly thoughtful, quietly pertinent, and right to the point. I know my partner ALF, who is right now cavorting around with her grandchildren, will say the same.

I've only done one previous stint as a Discussion Leader, so it was a learning experience for me, too. Actually, this is a lot of fun, especially if I can work with somebody like ALF! To CMac, (with her busted computer and all)Wilan, Barbara, FrancyLou, Yili LIn, Ginny, PatW.,howzat, Camw, and one of our most faithful and contemplative posters, Jane DeNeve, I want to offer my most sincere thanks!! You're all the greatest!

Lorrie

I would very strongly suggest reading the next selection of the BookClub Online. It's called "Blind Assassin," by Margaret Atwood, and it's a book I'm sure you will all enjoy. That discussion begins May 1, but click on the new heading and let them know you are coming!

BLIND ASSASSIN

DON'T FORGET TO TUNE IN SIXTY MINUTES ON SUNDAY EVENING AND PERHAPS SEE WHAT REALLY HAPPENED TO FATHER KAISER!!

Thought you all might be interested. Francy

GLOBAL TB REPORT FINDS INCREASING DRUG RESISTANCE

http://www.healthcentral.com/news/newsfulltext.cfm?ID=51951&src=n1

Tuberculosis (TB) that is resistant to antibiotic drugs continues to be a serious problem worldwide, according to the World Health Organization's (WHO) latest report.

Great discussion, Lorrie and Alf. THANKS to you both for leading it and to everybody who participated. It's great to share thoughts and find others' thoughts that help me to consider points of views or items I'd never have considered on my own.

šjane›

Lorrie if this was a first than you must be a natural - this was a great discussion and a great choice of book. Just giving this book to someone is going to pass on the outrage isn't it. I think I will include this URL with my copy.

Lorrie, as we say here in Texas, "you did real good." The is the very first book discussion I have ever been in on, real or cyberspace. I started with Dick and Jane in school and never looked back. As my son Steven said when he was 12, "Mom! Mom! If you can read you can cook anything"! He had discovered the instructions on the back of a cake mix box. I was thrilled. Heretofore he had read 2 books, "The Little Black Puppy" and "Zebulon Pike" which he was quick to mention if his brothers teased him about not being literate.

Which brings us to how to educate people who have no running water, no sewers, no phones, no electricity, and for the most part cannot read. You're looking at one on one here, as when they go to a clinic because they are sick and the people there do what they can to tell them about safe sex. Touchy subject what with the cultural bias.

I've enjoyed all you folks. I look forward to "seeing" you again. Love, Howzat.

thank you all for your very kind words. On reading more about what's happening with these big "pharma" companies, I found this timely link to a news spot recently. Read it!

AIDS DRUGS ADS

lORRIE

Wilan: My sympathies go out to you and to your family. It is just so difficult living daily with this devastating disease of AIDS. Au contraire-- there were many young men who were given these triple drugs/quad drugs for many years and we didn't know for sure if the cure was not as bad as the disease. When they first started to attack the virus, NOONE knew what havoc they would bring and many young men were used in an investigational study.

Lorrie truly deserves all of the credit for this wonderful discussion. When I was first asked to colead this discussion , by Lorrie, I was hesitant because of my background and because of my loss of two loved ones to AIDS. I was afraid on one hand I might tend to get too technical and afraid on the other that I would be too emotional.. You have all contributed to a wonderful discussion and made this a most enjoyable experience as well as a cathartic one for me in the process. As usual, everyone comes in with their own ideas, words and emotions , exposing their innermost thoughts which leads to an integrated, harmonious group of wonderful readers. Thank you all. Especially my cohort, Lorrie.

Howzat: What a delight you've been on your first read with our discussion group. I look forward to sharing many more stories with you. Barb, Yilin , Francylou, Pat, your contributions are always so valuable and I am always happy to see your names in a discussion. My friend and mentor Jane
, you lend such warmth. Cmac , you lil imp, welcome aboard.

It was an enjoyable read but a superior discussion by you all. Thank you again.

A N D Y