Corelli's Mandolin ~ Louis de Bernieres ~ 9/01 ~ Book Club Online
jane
August 17, 2001 - 08:27 am




"Above all I feel that it is a portrayal of the helplessness of man in the hands of fate...or men as the playthings of the gods...a truly Greek theme."--- English38


"Ordinary and silly and earthy folks who step beyond their ordinary lives and deeds as life/ war challenges them. They prove to be greater and more noble than their ordinary lives would lead us to believe...

Every one of his characters has feet of clay, hang-ups, foibles, weaknesses and pettiness, and he still loves and accepts them and makes us do the same...." --- Meg R




For Your Consideration:







Interesting Links
Cast of Characters List|| Possible Themes to Watch|| Translations of Characters' Names||Universal Studios' Captain Corelli's Mandolin






Goats of Cephalonia
(click on image)
 





Your Discussion Leaders were: Lorrie & Ginny




 
 







"As I see it, every chapter is a story in itself, and such is the skill of deB that he carries the plot forward, events mesh and are paralleled, reflected in the eyes of different characters and protagonists, which produces a multi-faceted picture of increasing sharpness."-- -Traude



Lorrie
August 17, 2001 - 09:39 am
WELCOME, WELCOME, TO EVERYONE!


Even though the discussion here doesn't start formally until September 1, we want to open it up to get acquainted and to let everyone know we are here so that they can get their copy of this wonderful book!

If you would like to talk about the movie version of this book, there's an ongoing discussion at Books Into Movies

Come and join us while we talk about "Corelli's Mandolin!"

Lorrie

Ginny
August 17, 2001 - 10:21 am
YAY and here we are poised on the very day the movie opens to read this talked about book and we will commence on September 1 with the first 18 chapters as you can see in the heading, and we hope you're all planning to join in. I love personally, even if I don't go see the movie, and I might not, to be reading something that everybody is talking about.

And IF as Lorrie says above you happen TO see the movie AND read the book your comments are earnestly requested in our Books Into Movies section...(and I may, if I do go to see it, have to comment occasionally here as well on how they handled whatever to see if you would have agreed vis a vis the way YOU read the book).

Do you not think that heading is the prettiest thing you ever saw?

We begin September 1 with bells....er...mandolins on.

See you here, I hope,

ginny

Lorrie
August 18, 2001 - 12:20 pm
Here is a post from another discussion that I feel should be repeated here:

From Traude:

"Corelli's Mandolin was greeted with respect in this country and became a bestseller, but it was not nearly as clamorously acclaimed here as it was in Britain and elsewhere in Europe. It led to soul-searching in Germany, I know. Admittedly, it is a difficult, demanding book and requires patience. It is clearly not to everyone's taste.

A review in he NYT made me aware of the book, which was immediately available at the library. The book touches me because I was in Europe at the time in which the story takes place. I have the paperback and am on my third reading.

Yes, the beginning chapters could be considered tedious, but the author takes his time to introduce a multitude of characters and builds up to the enormity of the horror that is to come. There are several levels on which the book can be interpreted; the author's range is stunning."


Thank you, Traude, for a significant comment.

Lorrie

ALF
August 19, 2001 - 04:58 pm
I've seen the movie! ta da, I am in love! I read that same article that Truade referred to in our Friday "Movies" section. I was surprised when I read that it was so highly acclaimed in Europe. I kept thinking of that when I was watching the movie. It was delightful and I enjoyed it BUT the book is so much better. I went with three other ladies that had not read the book and I believe I got much more from the movie due to the fact that I had read the novel.

gailie R
August 21, 2001 - 07:21 pm
I just saw Corelli's Mandolin loved the movie. I don't think I will read the book ,however, a lot of fighting between the Germans and Italians. It will be interesting to hear what everyone else thought of the movie and how the book compares.

Ginny
August 22, 2001 - 08:17 am
Hi, gailie, so you and Andrea have seen the movie, and I'm next, I just finished the book and now I know where to cover my eyes in the moive, it will be VERY interesting to see what they made of this epic.

Of course everybody knows that the movie has had mixed reviews, but even when we are poles apart here in the Books we can get some of the best discussions going, as we discuss our differences in opinion and learn from the perspectives of others.

I can't wait to see the movie and look forward to reading what everybody's said on it in Books into Movies!

ginny

Lorrie
August 22, 2001 - 09:47 am
Hi, gailie!

I do urge you to change your mind and read the book---you will get so much more out of it than the movie. And just think how much fun it will be to compare your opinions of the book with some of our other readers here! Any way, welcome to our upcoming discussion!

Lorrie

ALF
August 22, 2001 - 12:42 pm
Oh Gailee- you will be missing a great book . Honestly, it's well worth the read, especially after seeing that movie. Please join us, you can borrow the book. I need someone here with me that has seen the movie and liked it.

gailie R
August 22, 2001 - 01:16 pm
Ok I will read the book. Parts of it just seems so violent. Well off to the library I go

Lorrie
August 22, 2001 - 02:31 pm
Good for you, Andy! How can anyone resist your persuasive charms?

Anyway, I'm glad you'll be among the readers, gailie! Just cover your eyes when you come to a violent part and then fast forward. Like my co-host here, that coward Ginny! Hahhaha

Lorrie

MegR
August 22, 2001 - 04:03 pm
Ginny, Lorrie, ALF, gailie,

Hi, All! I'm in! Saw postings for this one & movie discussion group & decided to forego the movie in lieu of reading the book. I'm visually-oriented & prefer to develop my own interps of characters & the book & didn't want a casting or film director's vision intruding on my own as I "discover" this text. Does that make any sense? Anyhow, will go rent video AFTER I've read entire book. Plus, film reviews that I saw were really very tempid. Lots of talk about inappropriate casting. Will have to wait & see to check that out.

Few years ago I read a very amusing novel called The Wars of Don Emmanuel's Nether Parts and was surprised to discover that the same writer did Corelli's Mandolin! Really liked Loouis de Bernieres then, & even moreso now! He kind of reminds me of Jorge Amada or Nikos Katzenzakis (sp?) in terms of style, humor & treatment of his characters.

Doesn't surprise me that someone in article above was surprised to discover that L.dB was a smash hit in Europe w/ this book. There are tons of non-USA, excellent, fiction writers that don't make it to the Oprah, New York Times Best Seller or other lists. If a "foreign" book doesn't make it to these publicizing list, chances are that general reading public won't get to know that writer. Sorta have to go looking for these folks on your own. ANywho, Am about 50 pages into Mandolin & loving it. Have started a Greek & Italian character list to keep everyone straight for myself & to keep tabs of relationships. Think this one's gonna be fun!!! See ya in Sept!

ALF
August 22, 2001 - 05:15 pm
Great Meg is going to join up with us too. What a great idea to make a list in order to keep track of everybody .

Ginny
August 23, 2001 - 06:30 am
YAY, MegR!!


Yayya yy yay~~

YAY?

I've had to make a vocabulary list as well, it's a rare day I have to look up a word, I have an entire back cover full of them in this book.

I also will be bringing something apparently none of the rest of you will to this discussion: The Books Grinch will raise his hoary head, stay tuned for some neat Point/ Counterpoint!

Grinch

Traude
August 23, 2001 - 09:05 am
As I said before, I will definitely be in.

Right now I am just so darn busy with preparing for the 25th anniversary celebration (Sep 9) of the organization whose local branch I cofounded. It has special meaning because last year we narrowly averted being disbanded--- members unwilling to assume leadership positions. But I consider the branch my baby and was not willing to fold up the tent. We ARE going forward - after a resounding vote of confidence. I assure you that I will be with you in the forthcoming discussion.

ALF
August 23, 2001 - 09:08 am
Traude: You've gotten me interesterd now. Which type of organizational group are you talking about?

Lorrie
August 23, 2001 - 11:19 am
MegR:

I think you're about the first poster who has even mentioned the author of this book, Louis de Bernieres. I must confess that I have not read anything else of his, and I was surprised to learn that he is a smash hit in Europe. It makes one wonder if American tastes in literature are actually that different than European readers, doesn't it?

Keeping a list of different nationality characters is a splendid idea!

Traude, there is lots of time, we are simply delighted that you will be joining us!

Lorrie

Traude
August 23, 2001 - 01:54 pm
ALF, since you asked- it is AAUW = American Association of Unversity Women.

Though I would like to (and should perhaps) explain why this is so important to me, I could not possibly use this forum to do so. After all, we are about (Captain) Corelli's Mandolin, not about me. But thank you for asking.

Lorrie, I had not heard of Louis de Bernieres (wish I could add the appropriate accent) until C.M. and have read nothing else by him since. Yet I continue to wonder about the author's background - beyond what has been available from the publisher.

Lorrie
August 23, 2001 - 05:31 pm
Traude, you are right, there is very little written about the author of this book, Louis de Bernieres. I mean outside of the usual publishers blurbs, and marketing releases.

However, apparently deBernieres was criticized for "playing fast and loose with history" and he evidently fought back, via the press. I found this link for an article describing the controversy in the Guardian. I think all of us might find it of interest.

Louis de Bernieres

Lorrie

MegR
August 23, 2001 - 08:19 pm
Lorrie,

Thanks for article on author. Can ya put it up in top info with source stuff that's there on Cephallonia? Know that you gals are whizzes with this kind of thing on the computer - unlike me, who can only type! Nice work on finding the article!

Meg

P.S. Ginny, what are you bringing? Are you Greek and do you know all of the Greek words??? I LOVE this book so far and can't wait to get started with the discussion. Characters are so incredibly real!!!!

betty gregory
August 24, 2001 - 01:33 am
Well, I know what it means when Ginny says she's bringing something "apparently no one else" is bringing, MegR. (Is this pronounced Meg R or Megger?) Subtle, hahahaha, clues are in her next sentence, MegR. I wouldn't be worried, except she's never, that I know of, provided a warning before. Uh oh.

betty

ALF
August 24, 2001 - 06:06 am
You're right Betty! When Ginny's feeling contrary, she comes loaded for bear. Wouldn't you just love to have her on your debate team? I love the idea that folks are bold and brave enough to raise a conflicting thought in B & L. We needn't always acquiesce and be in agreement with our fellow readers. (S)he is a courageous soul to be the dissenting voice . This will be fun. The more of the book I read however the less I like the movie. So much was ignored in the movie, (although, let's face it-- I went to see Nicky.)

Jonathan
August 24, 2001 - 07:26 am
I'm still a bit unsteady on my feet, after that tempest I endured with Ginny a year ago...so that gleam, or is it glitter, in the eye, which I see in her post isn't too reassuring. Ominous, too, that lately she's been seen spending a lot of time studying Captain Corelli's...horrors! that should be Captain Bligh's...log-book.

The difference this time, as far as I can see, is Lorrie's steady hand on the helm. So it shouldn't be necessary, surely, to Launch Ginny on a search for Timor...hahaha

Don't miss the movie. Withhold your critical judgement and enjoy it. The violence is minimal, the tenderness is sweet, and it makes being Italian look like fun.

Jonathan

Traude
August 24, 2001 - 07:40 am
It is definitely not heretical or contrary to hold a different opinion on any given book, and I have said so before. We should be able to freely voice our own thoughts and impressions, and not feel the least bit guilty or awkward when we don't share an expressed opinion, or the extravagant praises on the respective jacket blurb. In my humble opinion, the failure to like, or connect to, any book is a stimulus rather than an impediment to a profitable discussion.

Lorrie
August 24, 2001 - 07:59 am
Jonathan:

It's not my steady hand at the helm that makes the difference, it's because I'm bigger than Ginny! haha

For those of you who have not seen the movie, it is a treat just to look at those fantastic views of the island Cephalonia alone!

Has anyone here ever spent any time on any of those Ionian islands? They must be fabulous!

Lorrie

MegR
August 24, 2001 - 11:42 am
Betty G,

It's really Meg R. When I registered with SN, was typing too fast & forgot to add the space! Sometimes I do get ahead of myself, much to my dismay!!

I'm still very curious about what Ginny's gonna bring cause I found her to be a dynamite discussion leader for House of Sand & Fog & am very curious to see what new method of torture or inspiration that she'll share with us to "stretch our brains" with this text! Off to the belt sander! (Am refinishing dining room woodwork - yes, I know I am an idiot to undertake this! [laughing!!]) Meg

Lorrie
August 24, 2001 - 02:57 pm
What did you all think about the poem at the beginning of the book? "The Soldier" by Humbert Wolfe? I found it to be quite haunting, and not at all meaningless, as so many of Wolfe's contemporaries, crushed both physically and mentally by World War I, seem to find it.

Lorrie

Ginny
August 25, 2001 - 05:17 am
hahahaah ERRRR ummmm if we look in the heading, Midshipman Just Reduced in Rank Jonathan, we can see the mantle of leadership is going to switch back and forth so one must prepare for the worst, BATTEN DOWN the hatches!!

What a great group now assembling to read THE most talked about book in a long time, and of course, MegR (forever now in my mind as Megger)you are totally right, and you will have to treat our Jonathan with some regard, all that whipping around he did up in the Crows Nest where he was banished during our Ancient Mariner discussion has obviously made him rightly respectful? Or ...uh.....hahaha

(Psst: HE'S the one you have to watch!) haahahha

NO no, welcome all of you here, I'm bringing (not Greek, sorry MegR but I truly LOVE your excitement and enthusiasm over this book)....note how positively our Meg envisions happy treats, I just love people with positive attitudes.

Don't we have somebody who does speak Greek here? I sure hope so I have a million questions!

No, I'm bringing to this discussion a present worth more than gold: a dissenting opinion on the book which will add salt and the ability to speak one's mind (which we do in the Books) and hopefully at the end of the discussion I won't be the only one who learns something: we'll learn from each other.

I have the greatest respect for you all and am looking forward to this discussion with great anticipation and hope many more will join in!

Grinch

Ginny
August 25, 2001 - 05:24 am
The theme of the poem at the first of the book, to me, symbolizes what theme there is in the book, of the futility of war on both sides and reminds me strongly of The Blue and the Gray, a poem by Francis Miles Finch:




The Blue and the Gray


BY the flow of the inland river,
Whence the fleets of iron have fled,
Where the blades of the grave-grass quiver,
Asleep are the ranks of the dead:
Under the sod and the dew,
Waiting the judgment-day;
Under the one, the Blue,
Under the other, the Gray.



These in the robings of glory,
Those in the gloom of defeat,
All with the battle-blood gory,
In the dusk of eternity meet:
Under the sod and the dew,
Waiting the judgment-day;
Under the laurel, the Blue,
Under the willow, the Gray.



From the silence of sorrowful hours
The desolate mourners go,
Lovingly laden with flowers
Alike for the friend and the foe:
Under the sod and the dew,
Waiting the judgment-day;
Under the roses, the Blue,
Under the lilies, the Gray.


So with an equal splendor,
The morning sun-rays fall,
With a touch impartially tender,
On the blossoms blooming for all:
Under the sod and the dew,
Waiting the judgment-day;
Broidered with gold, the Blue,
Mellowed with gold, the Gray.



So, when the summer calleth,
On forest and field of grain,
With an equal murmur falleth
The cooling drop of the rain:
Under the sod and the dew,
Waiting the judgment-day;
Wet with the rain, the Blue,
Wet with the rain, the Gray.



Sadly, but not with upbraiding,
The generous deed was done,
In the storm of the years that are fading
No braver battle was won:
Under the sod and the dew,
Waiting the judgment-day;
Under the blossoms, the Blue
Under the garlands, the Gray.



No more shall the war cry sever,
Or the winding rivers be red;
They banish our anger forever When they laurel the graves of our dead!
Under the sod and the dew,
Waiting the judgment-day;
Love and tears for the Blue,
Tears and love for the Gray.



Francis Miles Finch


ginny

Lorrie
August 25, 2001 - 03:24 pm
Okay, Grinch, (Ginny) you have given us fair warning--We are ready for you!

Lorrie

Another memorable poem about the futility of war, thank you, Ginny

MegR
August 26, 2001 - 05:40 am
Lorrie,

I don't know Humbert Wolfe at all! I read his poem before I started the book and found it hauntingly poignant. What came to mind immediately after I read it was the main character (can't remember his name & can't find my book to check it) and his cronies in Remarque's All Quiet on the Western Front. Although that tale was set in WWI, war experiences are the same and universal. Wolfe's "ghosts" of the dead soldiers or the "ghosts"of the youths that they were and no longer are evokes a sense of sadness and loss. That's what it made me think of.

Meg

Lorrie
August 26, 2001 - 11:07 am
Megger: (Forgive me for the impertinence, but Ginny's rendition of your name is sort of contagious)

Yes, I don't think Humbert Wolfe was all that well known in British poetry circles, but I could very well be wrong. Some critics have wondered why deBerneres didn't quote the better-known Rupert Brooke, "If I should die, think only this of me,
that there's some corner of a foreign field
that is forever England".......
whose poem, also named "The Soldier" is famous, but when I read over Brooke's poem I can see that it applies only to Briish soldiers and that wouldn't apply here. The sentiment expressed reminds me of "All Quiet on the Western Front," also.

Lorrie

ALF
August 26, 2001 - 01:21 pm
I am anxiously awaiting the return home of one of my "Great Books" club readers. She is a retired librarian, very eloquent and GREEK. She won't be home until next week when I shall give her 10 minutes to unpack and get her in here to speak with us.

MegR
August 27, 2001 - 12:44 pm
Ginny, here's list so far. May have missed someone. (Italic business - I looked in dictionary for derivations & found these. Wish I could have found more for the Greeks. Anybody know Italian?. Sometimes, feel like I don't "get it" when I don't know a language & why folks are named what they are by author. You can fiddle w/ this anyway you want. Just tried to load & generically separate characters. - MEG

Character List, Chapters 1-18

Lorrie
August 27, 2001 - 02:16 pm
ALF:

Are you sure she will know you in your bright yellow car? You know, the one that looks like a huge egg yolk? Hahaha

Way to go, MegR!

Lorrie

ALF
August 27, 2001 - 04:19 pm
Nope! She will not recognize me in my "Tweetie Bird" but I shall persevere. What a bonus she would be to us (for us) if I can coax her in.

Lorrie
August 28, 2001 - 09:23 am
Hey, isn't that a neat line-up of characters? Thank you so much MegR, I know this will be helpful. I love the terse way you mentioned the last character: ADOLPH HITLER! Hahaha

Lorrie

Lorrie
August 28, 2001 - 04:07 pm
Hey, hey! Where is everybody? Have you all decided not to talk about this great book? Am I using the wrong deodorant again? Come out, come out, wherever you are! It's only a few days until we begin the discussion in earnest.

Lorrie

CMac
August 28, 2001 - 07:53 pm
Alf Tweety Bird.....I thought it was the rubber ducky......

Hi everyone. I just received orders to get here...from Andy of course.

I shall lurk for awhile as I have not seen the movie nor do I have the book.

Most of the fun comes from the postings...Keep up the good work.

MegR
August 29, 2001 - 03:39 pm
AAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!! What is going on here? Have some computer elves been tinkering around???? Pages look different. Tried to log in twice in this discussion (bookmarked this site for faster access). When I moved to top of page to "login", registration page popped up & then sent me to some general index of things that had nothing to do with Corelli's Mandolin! Took a few page flips to get back here!???!!! What's up???

To Ginny & Lorrie's magic elves who transferred character lists: Know this is petty, but can you get rid of all of that underlining stuff? It really looks tacky & please take my name off of that listing. This chore required no credits. Thanks, MegR

Lorrie
August 30, 2001 - 10:32 am
MegR: Hang in there, Sweetie! We are having a whole new make-over in how we present headings, all over the SeniorNet site, and there are glitches here and there. I have reported your requests and will be dealt with shortly. Have patience, folks, things will be back to normal soon.

Lorrie

Traude
August 30, 2001 - 04:55 pm
Isn't the new format and appearance GREAT ? Thanks to all the experts who made it possible.

To your question in # 33 : I speak Italian.

Lorrie
August 30, 2001 - 06:50 pm
Great, Traude! I'll be looking for you to translate some of those very Italianish expressions that our hero uses all through the book. I'm afraid the only Italian I know is "Buon giornio," and I'm not sure of the spelling on that!

Okay, Okay, we are now officially open as a new discussion of the book, "Corelli’s Mandolin.” Welcome everyone, those who have been posting already, and those who are just joining in.

To begin with, about the Captain’s mandolin. Why do you think deBernieres chose to make his romantic hero a musician? Why, of all the arts, is music considered a potential healer ofinternational folly and strife?

Lorrie

MegR
August 31, 2001 - 06:24 am
Traude Hi, again! Oh, great! Can you "translate" any of the Italian character names in re to etymology/roots/meaning? Thought of checking old Latin texts, but can't find anything while house is discombobulated!! (laughing) Any help w/ meanings of Italian names or Greek characters that I couldn't find - would be appreciated - just for general knowledge. Always feel at such a disadvantage when I read something by a foreign author - especially with names. Always feel that I'm missing something if I'm not familiar with that language, culture.

Lorrie As someone who has NOT SEEN the movie (and won't until I finish the book) and who has only read up to the end of assignment (chpt. 18) - as a reader, I DON'T KNOW YET that Corelli IS the "romantic hero" of this novel!!!! Only mention we've heard of him is a cryptic comment made by Carlo in passing that Corelli was someone who would become positive/pleasant??? memory. Have to get book to find exact quote. Am totally confused by your second question!!! Can think of no fictional or real-world/real-life example of music being able to do this!!!???????? A MegR Q - isn't it a bit early to be talking about Corelli or his mandolin when we, as readers, have yet to meet him or even know what part he plays in this story - let alone what that mandolin may or may not mean to him or even its role in the story???

Know what has fascinated me so far? Multiple questions, musings etc. about "one's place in history" and how "history" is perceived/written. Another is the repeated connections made w/ Homer, good old "wily Odysseus" (a character that I've always been enamoured by) and the futility of that old Trojan war (to reclaim that "hussy Helen" - such a waste of energy!)and the history of the island and current battles in the novel. Plus, LdB's writing is just so RICH!!!

Lorrie
August 31, 2001 - 09:24 am
MegR:

I'm so sorry the questions I asked don't meet with your approval. I lifted them right off the suggested list of questions in the "reader's guide" for this book! Hahaha So much for that list! I'll also try not to mention Corelli until we get to that part, okay?

Hwever, I would like to know what you all think about the village priest, Father Arsenios, and that unfortunate happening to him in the confessional that time. Also, what were your impressions of the ceremonies at the feast of St. Gerasimos?

Lorrie

ALF
August 31, 2001 - 05:35 pm
Lorrie: Poor ole Pater Arsenios, our patron saint of obesity, as described by our doctor, is pathetic, isn't he? Velisarios has humiliated him and he goes to lick his wounds, swigging wine and ponders how "it was the worst thing in the world to be a complete failure who had NO prospect of any other job." He does have that "acute sense of theatre" does he not? I can just picture him as he delights in the "gifts" offered as tokens of an apology. His inspiration isn't of the divine nature but of the nectars. He prays, is inspired, fills his gullet and his bladder with Kokkinelli (?) and promptly vomits and wets himself. In a stupor, he repeats this cycle. Oye! What a sweet guy he is- seeking alms and offerings for himself. May I ask at this point why the priest wasn't portrayed as such in the movie? Any thoughts on that anyone?

Megr

ALF
August 31, 2001 - 05:57 pm
OOps! Megr: Carlo takes up arms because of Plato, after the revelation in the Symposium that there are three sexes and he was of a Different sex. I love Carlo in this story as he finds his loves and his "family" amongst his fellow soldiers. I suffer with him as we learn of his eternal and infinite silence; this silence that forces him to feel that his gender choice (which he can not help) will be seen by others as a "perversion" and an abomination in the sight of God.

Traude
August 31, 2001 - 08:05 pm
Have been sitting here composing a long missive, posted it but was unable to look at and edit it. Signing on again, I find no trace of it. Mamma mia ! I wonder what happened !

Lorrie
August 31, 2001 - 09:46 pm
At this beginning of the book, the author has filled it with vivid characters, some of whom we will be reading about long after we get into the story more deeply.

I think it's at this point in the story that deBerneres shows his wit more than at any other. There were so many hilarious scenes that he painted: the woebegone parish priest, Father Arsenius, the ongoing arguments between the Communist (Kokolius) and the Royalist (Stamatis),the cannon that Velasarius shoots off periodically. Even the doctor's encounters with the hungry goat are always amusing.

Andy, I also was touched by the journal that the young homosexual Carlo, was keeping. His story is such a touching one, isn't it?

Do any of you understand the political implications that were mentioned in the author's portrayal of Mussolini and the Prime Minister of Athens? I must admit my recollection of Greek politics at that time is a little hazy. I do know that the government was still a monarchy, and the Italian government then was a Fascist one.

What is your impression of Mandras?

Lorrie

Fiery
September 1, 2001 - 07:27 am
Oh, this wonderful book ----it filled me with emotional highs and lows with some in between feelings. Saw the movie after the read and was extremely disappointed that Carlo's physique(which definitely plays a part in the story) was not developed to say nothing of the character of the man(look what was missed!!). Of course an entire book could be written about Carlo and his part in the novel. Mandras was played by a much too handsome chap. His description and demeanor in the book is totally overlooked in the casting. However, the saving grace of the film, in addition to the fabulous filming of the glorious Greek scenery (they actually filmed one of the very old olive trees that the book speaks of lovingly) was John Hurt's portrayal of the Doctor--SPLENDID. To me, John Hurt was the STAR of the film. Kudos to the Hollywoodites for not filling this pretty good movie with ridiculous sex scenes but tastefully portraying what L.dB. wrote. However, that sweetheart Nicholas Cage (whose beautiful dark blue eyes give me goosebumps) could never come up to the Corelli I came to love shamelessly while reading this glorious novel. Naturally, the ending of the novel was far superior to that of the movie (my opinion, of course) They had to Hollywood it up---to be expected. Sorry for all the goofy jumping around I have done in this missive but I loved reading all the comments and will probably never again pop in and give any opinions. It takes a lot of time to stay so involved with a bookclub online. I will enjoy just peeking in now and then to see what you all are saying. Oh, yes, must mention that I feel the priest was portrayed as a buffoon in the book ( I have come across that in more than one novel) and was almost nonexistant in the film. Anyway, there is no way I could match wits with any of you after reading the previous 48 postings You all are some very special people!! Right now I am off to begin BIRDSONG which was highly recommended by many friends. Have fun----all of you

Lorrie
September 1, 2001 - 08:08 am
Wow, Fiery, when you post, you don't monkey around!

You raise some very good issues in regard to the differences between the movie and the book, but there is one thing you say with which I don't agree----I personally don't feel that Father Arsenios was treated as a buffoon in the book. Pathetic, perhaps, and ludicrous at times, but certainly not a buffoon?

Lorrie

jeanlock
September 1, 2001 - 08:39 am
I'm going to try to keep up with you guys, but so far am only on about page 18. Because I'm just loving the way the man uses words. I've only read the chapter about the Dr., and Mussolini so far, but have found them very funny. I do think I'm going to have to haul out my dictionary--even for some of the English words. I have always considered that I have an extensive vocabulary, but this guy drops words I never heard of all over the place. Don't have too much trouble with the Italian phrases and words (Have picked up a good bit because of my deep and abiding love of Italian opera) but I am just enjoying the way the man writes. Haven't even begun to get to the 'story'.

jeanlock
September 1, 2001 - 08:41 am
And I thought the discussion was supposed to begin today.

So, I come in, and my gosh, you've jumped the gun. I may never catch up. Guess I'll turn off the TV and just read for three days.

And, BTW, I do like the new format. It took me a couple of days to catch on to the changes in how to do stuff, but it really looks nice.

Lorrie
September 1, 2001 - 08:55 am
JEANLOCK:

For that you can blame moi---for some peculiar reason I was jumping the gun all ove the place. I thought Friday was the 1st, and then I started talking all about characters that hadn't even been mentioned in the first eighteen chapters, confusing poor MegR no end, and then grabbing at two out-of-context questions to post! The whole beginning was a disaster, and I've been ducking Ginny ever since. Please forgive me, everyone! Sure hope we got over the only bumps in this road!

Take it slow and easy, Jean! There's no hurry here.

Speaking of the author's prose, I found his description of the island, as the good doctor wrote it, especially intriguing. Look on page 4 paragraph 4, that begins......"He sat down and wrote"......

Lorrie

MegR
September 1, 2001 - 09:43 am
Lorrie,

First, apologies if I offended you w/ #43. Thought I had a valid point. This is a discussion of the book and you & Ginny assigned chapters for 1st week's reading. Thought our discussion was to fit w/in those parameters - i.e. Chapters 1 to 18. Panic set in cause I hadn't a clue about what you asked for w/ first Q's!! If I goof up & mention something that happens after a week's reading assignment or am totally off-base with reading or interp of story "facts" - I surely do expect you or anyone else to call me on that!!!

I did find first and only mention of Corelli in these chapters. In my copy, it's on page 100 in Chapter 15 - Here in Cepahllonia I fill my dreams with reveries of Captain Antonio Corelli, a man who, full of mirth, his mind whirling with mandolins, could not be more different from the vanished and beloved Francisco, but whom I love as much. At this point in story, we don't know who this Corelli guy is - other than what Carlo has said here. Know what? At this point in story, I'm really interested in what's going to happen to Carlo, Doc I & Pelagia & Mandras - but I think Carlo the most, because he seems to be the most reflective. Think I really do agree w/ Fiery above about there being enough substance here w/ Carlo portions for a complete & separate novel!

ALF,

Think I missed something in #46? Don't get it - i.e your ref to Plato. Want to go back to recheck my #43, but am afraid I'll lose this post! Totally agree w/ you about Carlo & Father Arsenios. Think one thing that I really love about this book is de Bernieres' treatment of his characters. He so reminds me of Jorge Amado & Nikos Kazantzakis in this respect. Every one of his characters have feet of clay, hang-ups, foibles, weaknesses & pettinesses & he still loves & accepts them & makes us do the same. You said that Carlo felt that he was a "perversion" and an "abomination in the sight of God." He and practically all of the others (w/ exception of Mussolini) also feel that separateness, aloneness, that sense of not being good enough. Examples: <per>
  • Fr. Arsenios- feels like a failure as a priest, lacks respect of villagers, repeatedly succumbs to his "perversion"-food & wine, considers running away, leaving wife & starting new life & career.

  • Pelagia - feels ashamed & guilty for enjoying the sight of Mandras' naked bod so much when she sees him w/ dolphins, feels father will make her social outcast by refusing to give a dowry, feels loss of having a mother to teach her "womanly" stuff

  • Mandras - although attracted to Pelagia, feels that he is not her equal. Goes off to war like Odysseus & those other crazy old Greeks, for name & fame, to do great deeds - so that he'll be worthy of her.

  • Metaxas -(former dictator of Greece 1936-1940)& currently Prime Minister in Athens? thought of himself as "savior" of Greeks & thought . . .that there was a messianic mission which had been chosen for him to fulfill. of restoring his country to glory. He feels alone & abandoned by allies & leaders he admired & once modelled his career after. etc.</per>

    What I really like about the author is that he creates ordinary & silly & earthy folk who step beyond their ordinary lives & deeds when life/war challenges them. They prove to be greater/more noble than their ordinary lives would lead us to believe. Fr. Arsenios becomes the spiritual & inspirational leader of the village when war comes. He steps up! Metaxas, afraid of being seen as a small man, a failure & joke in history, steps up and refuses Mussolini's demand. "Doctor" Iannis steps up & becomes the/an unofficial leader of the village when war breaks out. Carlo steps up & becomes a man (an adult) via his war experiences.

    Also just love repeated connections & references to the Iliad & Odyssey to this island & its inhabitants. These attach an epic/heroic sense to these ordinary folk & their lives as they face these horrors of war.

    More later. Back to woodwork sanding! (Yuck!) Meg R
  • ALF
    September 1, 2001 - 10:54 am
    Fiery:  What a wonderful, insightful and delightful post you just made.  What ever do you mean there is no way that you can match wits with us.  Heck, Joan we're just a group of folks who share our love of reading and each one of us brings a different insight into these characters.  Oh please, please, please change your mind and stay with us for a while longer to discuss the handsome Corelli.  I, too, saw the movie and wanted to withhold my judgement on the characters until everyone had read the book.  I agree that John Hurt was ideally chosen for our Doc and N. Cage did a wonderful job portraying Corelli.  Our darling Carlo was barely existant in the flick and I was very disappointed in that.  The book describes his sense of betrayal wonderfully  when he and Francisco succeeded in their mission that their commander was certain they would be killed during.  I loved the part in the book as our author describes how he and his beloved are sent on a top secret training camp as instructors over 150 , non Italian speaking Muslim, Albanians.  The mission was to be performed in one week.  Carlo tries to understands the acts of lunacy of war.

    Lorrie: the humor is inescapable as we learn that Cephalonian water, as well as their wine, light and sailors are  the best!  What a proud heritage.  Velisarios exclaims in a rebutall to Velsaris:  "May you have female children and male sheep for saying ...."  That cracked me up!  How about this one?  "Aleko so unacdcostomed to human company that he was short of words even in his inner speech."   LOL

    ALF
    September 1, 2001 - 10:56 am
    Jean: Me too! I have a list of about 50 vocabulary words that I swear I have never heard nor seen in my life. (Puttees? I know now what they are but have never heard that word before, anywhere.)

    Jonathan
    September 1, 2001 - 01:40 pm
    And I was very disappointed at first, Lorrie. I was about to say, couldn't we start at the beginning, Not necessarily with Dr Iannis' miraculous 'feat of medical prestidigitation', but with his ambitious, herculean task of writing a New History of Cephalonia...the very thing our author is trying to do. He has difficulty shaking off the present. When he does the bigger-than-life Greek gods and mythic heroes take the stage.

    God himself appears, bringing with Him that Cephalonian 'light that seems unmediated either by the air or by the stratosphere. It is completely virgin, it produces overwhelming clarity of focus, it has heroic strength and brilliance. It exposes colors in their original prelapsarian(!) state, as though straight from the imagination of God in His youngest days, WHEN HE STILL BELIEVED THAT ALL WAS GOOD'. And the movie caught it! It's worth the price of admission.

    Very little has been good since then, which is the subject of the book really. Except for the good Captain Corelli, and his mandolin. Cephalonian history has been mostly an ordeal of visitations by marauding Crusaders, and other pirates and empire-builders, with the calamitous fate of the islanders being determined by megalomaniacs, one of whom is lampooned so effectively in the person of Mussolini.

    Except, too, for the good Seargent Carlo Piero Guercio, the biggest hero of them all, whose love for Corelli was just as great as Pelagio's. He seems almost impatient to die, after which the world will learn of his story...and it's an amazing one. Fittingly, looking ahead, he's given a hero's burial, when death comes, in Greek soil, at the chronologically and heroic odyssian level, among ancient sherds and modern votive offerings. Without taking note of Carlo's ideas about love, honor and courage, the reader will hardly be able to appreciate, later, Dr Iannis' magnificent funeral oration.

    But now on to Father Arsenios, God's venial, lecherous, prodigal son. And future prophet, awakening to the shock of his wretchedness, wallowing in a filth of his own making.

    We're off to a great start, aren't we? Really, Lorrie, it was a valiant attempt to get us to discuss music as an instrument of foreign policy and conflict resolution; but MegR had a quick reply for that. Honestly, I was stumped for an answer on that one.

    What a great New Look around here...Jonathan

    betty gregory
    September 1, 2001 - 06:18 pm
    If I could think of a loving, starting-gate pistol and deafness jibe, I'd offer it now, Lorrie. At any rate, turn in that pistol to Ginny right now. (Hey, this many readers at the gate is a wonderful problem to have!!)

    There are several groups of readers here....those who saw the movie and read the book, those who saw the movie and have just started the book (but are on the posted schedule) and those who are on the posted schedule and have not (on purpose) seen the movie. Need some really clear parameters here.

    That last, long post from Meg R, post 54, is terrific, listing the (self) inadequacies of all the major characters at the beginning of the book. Well, of course, I thought, but not until you pointed it out, Meg.

    betty

    Traude
    September 1, 2001 - 07:20 pm
    Hello Betty, Hi Meg,

    yes Lorrie, Betty raised a good question. Should comments on the movie still be posted in the Books into Movies folder ? It may not be entirely possible to leave everything pertaining to the film out of this, the book discussion. For example when a question comes up in the movie folder (your #80) which has validity here also. Please let us know how you want us to proceed.

    Meg, your #43 and 54 are great. Specifically re # 43, please elaborate on the question of Italian names (first names, I take it).

    Indeed, Corelli does not make his physical appearance in the book until chapter 24. Everything else is a very long prologue of sorts, but necessary.

    In an earlier post, Jonathan had mentioned the author's style . While and as we read, could we please pause once in a while to ponder the style, and the different voices in which the tale is told, admirably, all of them, of course, the author's own. I believe we also should not lose sight of the irony, the sarcasm, the bitterness.

    While I am not the nosy type, I really would like to know where the author's own loyalties lie, and how he came by them. He is too young (born in 1954) to have personal experience of WWII or anything that preceded it. His name is French, but we read in the sparse introductory write-up that "After four disastrous months in the British army, he left for a village in Colombia --- etc." What if anything could be inferred from those few words ?

    deB has created a vast tableau : the novel can be read on several levels, and while it IS difficult to penetrate initially, its richness unfolds rather spectacularly before the patient reader's eyes. Just consider the author's medical/pharmacological and musical knowledge, not to mention the historical data given (a bit subjectively on occasion), and THEN let's speculate what metaphorical meaning the author may have intended.

    I have said from the outset that this is an important book, one that has touched me because I lived in Europe in the time deB describes. However, I have never said that I LOVED the book -- that is something I don't do, certainly not at the beginning of a discussion, when everything is in flux and nothing has had a chance to "gel" yet.

    And while we consider the question of style, as we go on reading, could we also ponder what the author's theme might be ? The senselessness of war, perhaps ? Human weakness and quiet triumphs ? Survival in extreme conditions ? Extending a hand to a perceived enemy and finding grace ?

    Lorrie
    September 1, 2001 - 08:54 pm
    JONATHAN and MEGR:

    After getting off to a shaky start, I'm hopeful that we can go on with our impressions of this book and try to stay within the schedule at the same time.

    I've been thinking a lot of what the author wrote about how the doctor describes his island. On page 6, in the very last paragraph, he describes the "light" of Cephalonia in absolutely mesmerizing terms. This famous light, that is mentioned in other places.

    BETTY:

    You have such a knack for the right term! "Starting gate," perfect! And I think some of the people at the lineup would like to have seen the starting pistol pointing in my direction, hahaha. Anyway, I'm delighted that we have such a lively group so far, and hope that it grows even bigger as we get more into the book.

    TRAUDE: Yes, this discussion is to be about the book, period. We are going to be closing the movie discussion (on another page) but I'm afraid it's inevitable that some of our posters will be mentioning the movie. I will try to dissuade any extraneous comments about the movie as best I can, but please show a little patience if someone seems carried away on the subject. Traude, you raised a question that I have wondered about myself. In the brief searching i did about this author, I'm afraid any biographical notes are very scanty, and that makes one wonder just where his true feelings lie, doesn't it? Outside of his ability to bring to life some of the most vivid characters we've read about in a long time, does anyone really know anything about this man?

    Lorrie

    ALF
    September 2, 2001 - 06:30 am
    Lorrie: Your starting point and your question I felt were appropo. Corelli's Mandolin is the title and many times while reading this novel I kept thinking WHY did the author call it this? I have a tendency to do that especially if the Title isn't mentioned somehow earlier in the read.

    I apologize for talking about the movie and have been most careful NOT to dissuade anyone from seeing it. It is just so natural to use both the senses when discussing a novel. My eyes saw one thing (movies) and my heart and understanding (book) witnessed soething else. Anyway off we go: The Washington Post I believe summed it up best for me.
    Brims with all grand topics of literature-love & death, heroism & skull-duggery, humor & pathos, not to mention art and religion.

    Traude
    September 2, 2001 - 12:36 pm
    Lorrie, our discussion focuses rightfully on the book, of course. Please don't misunderstand me, I did not mean to extend the movie discussion ad infinitum .

    But what I am about to describe may be of some help, historically speaking, to those who have not seen the movie, and that's why I mention them here. The scenes in question are entirely the work of the script writer(s) and, as Ginny has rightly pointed out in the movie folder, are not found in the book.

    I am referring to the scenes on the square where the Italian occupier and the German lieutenant, representing the second occupying contingent (they were axis parnters, remember), were assembled on one side, and hesitant but curious female island villagers on the other. Those who saw he movie may remember that, before the dancing slowly got underway, the occupying soldiers stood at attention while a military march was played. The Greeks looked puzzled.

    That march was in fact, as I realized with a jolt, the 'second' Italian anthem, added to the original national anthem under the fascists; it became a ritual and the obligatory opener at each and every conceivable opportunity. The first words were "Giovinezza, giovinezza, primavera di bellezza" (youth, youth, springtime of beauty). As the moviegoers may recall, the hesitant fraternization efforts in the movie did not begin until AFTER the "Giovinezza" ritual had been performed !

    Thank you, Lorrie

    Ginny
    September 2, 2001 - 05:08 pm
    Well my goodness, welcome welcome all, how exciting!

    What a splendid group now assembled, to discuss this complicated book, Lorrie, Meg R, Traude, Andrea, Fiery, Jeanlock, Jonathan, Betty, I hope I have not left anybody out! Welcome!!

    What a wonderful revelation in your last post, Traude, thank you for that one!

    I'm late to the dance but ready, having read the book once and now for the second time, I see I missed a great deal the first time, I've learned a lot just from reading your posts!

    First off, I'm with Andrea and Jeanlock, it's a rare day I have to look up a word and that's all I've done in this book and I perversely enjoy that, for some reason, feel like I'm learning something.

    You all raise so many points, I want to get with Lorrie and get some in the heading if we can.

  • Mythological references/ history/ historical narrative:

    Why does the author choose to start the book by having the doctor writing a history of the island? Why mention the Odyssey and other mythological references? Does this mean something??

    Thank you, MegR, for that list of characters and explanation of the role Metaxis played, I, like Lorrie, have almost no knowledge of Greek history, much less modern, and like Traude, I wonder how much the author actually has? I did read his note at the end of the book, I am anxious to know, however, if this is how the Greeks really feel?



  • I was struck by Meg R's comment:


    Every one of his characters has feet of clay, hang-ups, foibles, weaknesses and pettiness, and he still loves and accepts them and makes us do the same....


    And then who wrote this one???


    Ordinary and silly and earthy folks who step beyong their ordinary lives and deeds as life/ war challenges them. They prove to be greater and more noble than their ordinary lives would lead us to believe.


    You know, "peasant books" are often tiresome as the author strives to at the same time let us IN to this happy involved seemingly simple life but oft uses such descriptions that he inevitably places a barrier between the folksy "characters" and the reader. I'm not sure whether in this book De Berniers has succeeded in making believers of us, yet. I'm going to hold off because as I reread this I keep picking up new things which sort of startle.

  • Traude mentions theme and style. It may be fun to watch the author and see what he does, how he develops it. One of the first things I noticed was VOICE?

    The chapters are strangely titled? For instance Chapter 2 "The Duce," (didn't you find that interesting? The Duce? Wasn't he called Il Duce? By even Americans?) Interesting, and yes I know the etymology?

    Is this book translated from another language, by any chance??

    In this chapter Mussolini himself speaks, in Chapter 3, Velisarios seems to be thinking, can you tell?

    In Chapter 4 : L'Omosessuale, Carlo is speaking.

    What effect do all these voices, all these narrators, have on the story line?

    More....

    ginny
  • Ginny
    September 2, 2001 - 05:08 pm
    Aresenios:

    Several of you have mentioned the priest Arsenios, some calling him a buffoon, some prodigal son, some a man who succumbs to his "perversion," food and wine, pathetic, ludicrous, patron saint of obesity, and there's quite a bit said about him in the book, I'd like to look at him a bit closer?

    Apparently normally a priest in Greece (I'm assuming this is the Greek Orthodox Church??) has many duties: "go out amongst the people, comforting the sick and the dying, arbitrating in disputes, disseminating the Word of God, advocating the reunion of Greece...."(page 36)

    He longs for sainthood or being another Homer, a writer of poetry (page 37), famous and respected.

    But how does the author represent him? And why? His sins are not only of gluttony and sloth, but greed: it's greed for more hoped for gifts that keeps him away from leaving the confessional, it's gluttony which keeps him eating and drinking, what is the author doing with the representation of what normally would be the most respected man in town?

    I think at this point I began to realize I needed to watch this author? He's presented a very flawed orator of God, of course we remember many other people like Matthew the tax collector that one would not have expected to be called, either?

    What good do we see in Father Arsenios and why has the author chosen this way this extreme way to characterize thus in this part of the book a man of God?

    ginny

    jeanlock
    September 2, 2001 - 05:30 pm
    I decided to look for a little background on Greece during WWII, etc., and when I had downloaded about 40 pp of text on the country during the war, I did a search on the island (In the book it is spelled Cephallonia, but it is also spelled differently, beginning with a K).

    Anyway, if you click on the following link, you will get three pages of beautiful color photos of "Captain Corelli's Island) showing the various sites where the Italians were.

    http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/6062/travelogues/corelli.html

    jeanlock
    September 2, 2001 - 05:40 pm
    Yes, I, too, wondered about whether the book is a translation. I have decided it's not. First because it doesn't say "translated by" as it would if book were in another language. Second, the note about the author in the beginning of the book says he spent four disastrous months in the British armn, then went to Columbia where he was a teacher and a cowboy, and finally returned to England. It appears as tho only his name is French, altho I'll check him out tomorrow.

    Right now I want to continue reading. I finally got to p 31, and I want to read some of the background stuff I just printed.

    Jonathan
    September 2, 2001 - 08:56 pm
    There seems to be a deplorable tendency in this group to reach for a dictionary. Instead of a final resort, it becomes a first resort. And that's a pity, in my opinion. Not only does it take a lot of fun out of reading, at best, but, at worst, it becomes a conversation stopper. I seldom use one myself, especially with such an artfully-written book as Corelli's Mandolin. Either the context suggests the meaning, or the word serves no useful purpose in the text.

    Furthermore, at times, LdeB employs language syntactically, as well as specifically, as single words, with plenty of nuancial scope, which he knows full well that each reader will understand a son gout. It's a good story-telling trick. Secondly, translating an Italian or Greek word gets a bit tricky when already one half expects to get only a foreign-language synonym for a bit of the author's scatological or ribald nonsense. And thirdly, sometimes the foreign phrase conveys its own lively sense even without translation.

    By way of illustration, consider the use of the word 'prelapsarian', in the passage (p7) accounting for the wonderful light on Cephalonia, and especially the 'colors in their original prelapsarian state'. I'm sure I've never seen the word before. I can't find it in my dictionary. But the thought provoked by the word is mind-boggling. Come to think of it, perhaps there was an English religious sect who thought of themselves as prelapsarians. Does anyone know? (Louis de Bernieres, aka Louis Smart, was British, if my memory serves me correctly, was a teacher for fifteen years, did post-graduate work in philosophy at Leeds or Manchester, took to writing novels to support his chain-smoking habit, and gave the British military favored treatment in his book.)

    As for p-----g, or whatever, in Italian or Greek, how much foreign-language linguistic shock can one take. haha

    On the other hand, as an example of enjoyment without translation, I have to think of that exclamatory, verbal outburst, which followed and matched the deafening roar and shower of debris of the exploding mine on the beach in chapter 43: 'Figlio di puttana di stronzo d'un cane d'un culo d'un porco d'un pezzo di merda!'

    And how about the 'AIRA!' from the excited Greeks, just before that?

    Maybe when the time comes, someone could translate all that for us. In the meantime I'm content to imagine what was said.

    Jonathan

    Jonathan
    September 2, 2001 - 09:28 pm
    jeanlock

    Meanings I can imagine. Facts, one can't have enough of...thanks for the good links.

    Jonathan

    Lorrie
    September 2, 2001 - 11:03 pm
    TRAUDE:

    This is why it's so helpful to have someone posting who actually knows many of the underlying meanings to different scenes in this book. I had no idea that the military march they played at that scene in the square was the second Italian national anthem. Traude, having lived in Europe at the time portrayed in this book, do you have any knowledge of how the Greeks actually felt about the invasion of the Italians, and then the Nazis? Our limited knowledge of what was going on in the world those days was centered mostly on Great Britain and the countries of France, Germany, Poland, and Russia, of course. Somehow the news from Greece seemed to get lost in the shuffle.

    JEANLOCK:

    Wonderful, wonderful photos! Thank you so much.

    And here's our Ginny, with her usual exuberance over the line-up of characters we've met so far. Yes, I also wondered about the sequence of all those monologues by seemingly unrelated persons to the story, but it's easier to see that the author is building up the focus on what will be happening in the not too distant future. It does help build suspense, I get a strange feeling of foreboding, don't you?

    I did want to mention that, in my opinion, de Bernieres did some of his most glorious writing in Chapter 12. His whole description of the festival of St. Gerosimos, and the "miracles" granted to the mad patients in the madhouse near the monastery, was masterfully done, the descriptive passages remarkable. On page 71 that whole first paragraph is a joy to read, with the numerous references to Cephalonia's past. Terrific!

    Incidentally, MegR, I am finding your cast of characters very helpful. I had to read back to chapter 12 to rediscover who Maria, the "Queen of America" was!

    Lorrie

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 3, 2001 - 07:07 am
    Just browsing here. Below you'll find a link to an article in an Englsh newspaper which says much the same thing about Louis de Bernieres that Jonathan did.

    Louis de Berniere

    Traude
    September 3, 2001 - 07:33 am
    What a wonderful discussion is in progress here ! Lorrie, I will try and explain some of the historical background, at least from my subjective view and experience. And I will get to your questions, Ginny. But since I am expecting out-of town friends, the chance to get back online may not present itself until evening.

    Jonathan, I agree with you wholeheartedly on the need to just plow on; and not look up each and every word right then and there. It is too distracting and time-consuming; one might get lost in the process. As for prelapsarian, the word is not in my trusted big Random House (1966) either. But the eminent Canadian novelist and playwright Robertson Davies was very fond of it. I encountered it first in Fifth Business, , the first volume of The Deptford Trilogy , and in susequent books by him. I made it my business to find out what it means, and it is quite simple : pre = before and lapsarian from lapse, something dating back to times immemorial. deB writes on pag 6 of the "colors in their original prelapsarian state", and that explains it. BTW, have you noticed that deB is fond of the word "pellucid" ?

    I had no idea that de Bernieres is a pseudonym. Thank you, Jonathan, for this valuable information.

    Oh my God I have to dash.

    Ginny
    September 3, 2001 - 11:52 am
    Jonathan, I do what I think everybody else does, I try to figure it out by the Latin roots, by the context, and then if I can't guess well enough to suit myself or think the meaning might enhance my understanding even better than my guess, then I look it up.

    That's OK.

    When I finished the book I had an entire page of words I had not known the meaning of initially written on the fly papers at the end of the book, and I looked those up, referred back to the page I saw them (which I had also noted) and thus tried to learn something, but my mind being what it has become, I doubt I did.

    I agree with you on the go with the flow and guess type of thing, it does add mystery and magic to the reading, and nobody should feel chained by not knowing every word, but there's nothing deplorable about looking up a word, either. Either one is fine, I think.

    Didn't bother, actually with prelapsarian? Figured it was a coined word? Figured he made it up, something about before time? Figured it came from Latin: rock, lapis, or fall, lapsus, (it's probably Greek) or maybe even, hahahaha another meaning for lapis: dull. ahahahah

    But ecce: It's anything but dull: consider:

    Now Jonathan amazingly suggests it might have been a movement? A British movement? How fascinating, and to think I skipped over that one entirely!

    This is fun!

    ginny

    jeanlock
    September 3, 2001 - 04:31 pm
    Jonathan--

    I used to be able to figure what words meant mostly because I studied and loved Latin in high school. And I could figure out their connotation from the way they were used. Now, however, if I need to know the meaning, I do often look it up. Because if I guess wrong, I get a wrong impression of the author's intent.

    Also, I have found the historical background information I've found to be very helpful in picturing the events in the book. One thing I found runs to about 40 pages, and includes interviews with a soldier who was involved in the invasion of Albania. Fascinating.

    Now, I guess I'll get back to the book itself; on page 35 now.I'll never catch up.

    jeanlock
    September 3, 2001 - 04:33 pm
    Ginny--

    Just about every time I decide to respond to a message I'm reading, I go ahead, write the message, post it, and in reviewing it, find that someone else has reached there before me. How comforting it is to know I'm not really an oddball, or if I am, I have company.

    Traude
    September 3, 2001 - 04:51 pm
    According to my trusted Random House dictionary, Cephalonia (one l) is the English spelling; the Greeks call this, the largest Ionian island, Kephallenia . And wouldn't we all like to be transported there right now by magic carpet or by nose-twichting a la Samantha Stevens ?

    Mal, thank you for linking us to further detailed info on deBernieres. So, Louis Smart wasn't really a pseudonym but part of his ancestral name ! Well, as we know, "the devil is in the details", and this is good to know. (Some questions remain.)



    Yes indeed, Ginny, lapse is derived from the Latin lapsus.

    To get back to the beginning : chapter 1 is straight narrative. Chapter 2 is a very cleverly imagined, sardonic half monologue, half dialogue between Mussolini and others, whose utterances are not heard but conveyed in il Duce's (the Duce's) continued rambling. "Duce" is derived from he Latin dux, ducis.

    Chapters 1 and 2 are important because they set the scene, point to the existing conflicts and presage the coming horror; every word counts. I find it rather surprising that the author throws out first and/or last names so casually, expecting the reader to know instantly who that person is and what role he/she plays. After 5 decades, how can he be so sure of that ???

    In historical novels it is always a bit difficult to distinguish between what can be considered as fact and what is the author's addition/embellishment. And, as we well know, even the facts can be subject to "spin", depending on which side is relating any given story or event. May I further identify some of the names which Meg has compiled into a list, and thank you for that, Meg !

    Mussolini had 5 children with the long-suffering Donna Rachele ("Donna" being a sign of distinction, not a name). The eldest daughter, Edda, wed Count Galeazzo Ciano, a dashing nobleman, who was Minister of Foreign Affairs for a time but unwilling to make Italy totally subservient to Germany. He was relieved of his post and made ambassador to the Vatican. In January of 1944 he was captured by the Germans and executed by Italian partisans.

    Clara Petacci (known as Claretta by the people) was the Duce's mistress. He had a coin minted with her profile (can't remember the denomination). In April of 1945 (when the game was up), Mussolini and Clara tried to escape to Switzerland but were captured not far from the frontier, near Lake Como, by Italian partisans, executed, and hung upside down. The shocking picture was printed in the newspapers, and I saw it.



    to be continued

    Lorrie
    September 3, 2001 - 08:57 pm
    Mal, thank you for that link. The article about "Louis Smart" was very enlightening. I was struck by what he said about media frenzy, and it explains a lot about why he is so guarded about his private life.

    "Consigned to the more recent past are days of being hounded as an emerging best-selling author when tabloid journalists, incensed at being refused an interview, tore at the fringes of his life and resolved to write features without him if that was what he wanted.

    The experience he said, was horrifying. “They went to the library to find out what I read and the deli to find out what I ate. They found my sister, my parents, an ex-girlfriend who told them to go away. In the end they came out with this idea I was some kind of hermit.”


    Lorrie

    Lorrie
    September 3, 2001 - 09:07 pm
    TRAUDE:

    Yes, I remember those pictures that were published all over the world of Mussolini and his mistress hanging upside down after being executed by Italian partisans, and we were also horrified.

    You are giving an excellent explanation of what the mood of the European nations was like during that time, and I am enjoying reading about the names that were so famous at one time.

    JEANLOCK:

    Keep reading at your own pace, Jean, we promise not to get so far ahead of you again. I still look at your photos now and then--very good!

    Lorrie

    Jonathan
    September 3, 2001 - 09:11 pm
    Chapter 12 is a splendid piece of writing. Can you imagine that? Among the many wonders and miracles to be met with on Cephalonia, not the least remarkable, surely the most poignant, must be the need 'to clean the mud from the golden brocade of his (St Gerasimos') slippers and resettle his emaciated and mummified limbs into a posture of peaceful repose'. Those poor, obliging nuns. And him dead these five hundred years, and out all night being saintly.

    Traude...you're truly amazing as a resource person; with a keen eye, and ear, for detail. What a memory! I hope you didn't mind my gratuitous remarks about dictionaries. I'm very proud of, and make good use of my large RH, same as yours. Just as proud of my weighty, two-volume Flügel-Schmidt-Tanger. Have you got one? I think it must be likely.

    Hi Mal...good to hear from you. You're just as amazing. Prelapsarian: before the Fall. Of course, you're right. All the world, except for Cephalonia, has to live with fallen colors. What a tragic consequence of Man's Fall! What a thought.

    For me, Chater 22 was the most striking, with Mandros taking on the proportions of a truly homeric, tragic, Greek hero, displaying all the roots which Dr Iannis could have wished for in a husband for his daughter. Talk about being sadder and wiser, at the end of a chapter.

    It's time to be off to Mt Aenos, to herd the goats with Alekos...Jonathan

    Ginny
    September 4, 2001 - 05:09 am
    One of the main difficulties I already see in my rereading of this book is the jumble of historical facts and stirring moving scenes?

    First we are continually reminded of Homer and the Odyssey by Dr. Iannis and his history. So that makes me think that perhaps there is a tie in?

    Perhaps there is a modern Odysseus here?

    Lorrie asked a while back what we thought of Mandras? I think maybe our Mandras is intended as a modern day Odysseus? The story lines are amazingly parallel? Same island, same plot, tho he's only engaged, not married, leaves Penelope (Pelagia) goes off to war...and ....and... comes back in somewhat of a disguise? What does Pelagia mean?

    That's as far as we've gotten, who was the old guy in the Odyssey? I have a feeling this is intended as a sweeping epic type thing.

    However I find the events impossibly vague, all these voices, all these narrators, it's a chorus as somebody said in the Books into Movies discussion (a Greek chorus) and it's baffling when you can't even tell half the time who is fighting who and why. The scenes are riveting, wonderfully written but who is fighting who and why?

    And just about the time I am ready to come in here and say will somebody please outline what's happening, behold, it's as if the author's editor said, hey, give us a break what's going on? And a new voice appears: The Italian Minister (do we ever learn his name?) explains to us what's happening since I myself did not have a clue.

    I found myself extrememly irritated at the author with this concluding sentence in Chapter 14: (Grazzi):


    "There, I have told you what happened. I hope you're satisfied."


    Er...uh....who is the "you" referred to there? Are we, the reader, suddenly having conversations with the characters?

    Or are we suddenly having conversations with the author? I took it to mean the latter and it's at this point that my irritation with the book began: if you can't explain it in the narrative any better than that, don't blame the reader.

    How did you all see that sentence?

    Confused in Pauline

    PS If we're comparing dictionaries, those of us with the old OEDs need to weigh in, tho mine is only the abridged one (10 volumes) it did not have prelapsarian either. (This is kind of like comparing RAM, isn't it? hhahaah)

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 4, 2001 - 09:18 am
    My daughter has been very ill for a very long time. She came in here this morning, discouraged because she still has not been told the date of the second surgical procedure she must have. I brought her into this discussion to read the wonderful Italian curse Jonathan posted from the book, so she could yell it when she's frustrated about her illness and the delay. Dorian said, "Oh, do you want to read it? I have it in my house."

    Anyway, she brought the book in to me. I haven't seen the movie, and know I won't see it, but may I ask permission to join this discussion at this late date without having seen the movie?

    P.S. Prelapsarian is defined in the American Heritage Dictionary I have in this computer.

    Mal

    Lorrie
    September 4, 2001 - 09:32 am
    MAL:

    Of course you have permission to join us, and it isn't necessary to have seen the movie! Everyone is welcome! In this discussion we are discussing the book alone on its merits, and so far we ar off to a rousing start!

    I believe I can speak for everyone when I say we are truly sorry to hear of your daughter's ilness, and wish her the very best.

    Lorrie

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 4, 2001 - 09:39 am
    Thank you, Lorrie. What you said brought tears to my eyes.

    Mal

    Ginny
    September 4, 2001 - 09:46 am
    Absolutely, welcome, Malryn, sorry to hear also about your daughter and we've just begun this discussion and if any other person is looking in, why, he must join in, too.

    We will have a glorious group here to kvech with!

    ginny

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 4, 2001 - 10:14 am
    From a review. I'll post the link later.





    Running throughout the novel is a Homeric theme. Cephalus, after whom the island was named, was a forebear of Odysseus (with some dispute over whether Odysseus's home was the nearby isle of Ithaca or Cephallonia). Certainly the wanderings of Mandras in his first flight from home resemble the voyages of Odysseus. He's even seduced by an old hag called Circe in a poetic narration that seems to be a little bit too literary to have come from such an illiterate man, but we can forgive Bernieres for writing too well. It is very possible that Mandras could have had such a literary education even if he cannot read: no doubt his dreams are inspired by half forgotten tales from Cephallonia's oral culture. Mandras even has a Penelope waiting for him in the form of Pelagia, and Mandras's boss in ELAS takes the pseudonym of 'Hector' from Homer. But Bernieres is never completely true to the fabled myths, for he has own torturous trail to weave. Father Arsenios is a joy to behold as he turns from being a drunk and the worst priest Cephallonia has ever had, into a prophet who startles the occupying forces by quoting the psalms at them. Even if you think you know your history, the events on Cephallonia will still come as a big shock to you too.

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 4, 2001 - 10:23 am
    The complete review.

    Corelli's Mandolin review

    MegR
    September 4, 2001 - 11:57 am
    Hi all & welcome to new arrivees! Ran away from home this weekend & from sanding dust of redoing my diningroom woodwork! Couldn't stand the mess anymore & went to visit out-of-town family for holiday & a favorite chocolatier too. Just finished reading all the posts that I missed & took notes. Need some time to sort out stuff, but will be back to respond.

    Lorrie,

    As I read thru postings, found a number of really good issues that folks raise. In #63, Ginny suggested listing some of these at the top of this page. Someone else did this in another discussion that I took part in, and I found this very helpful for me to focus on themes, questions etc. that everyone raised. Sometimes it's difficult to keep flipping back & forth through postings to recall what someone said. Could we do that again here? I've decided to play hooky from my woodwork stuff today & will go over my notes & see if I can come up with a list. Would that be helpful? Will post later today.

    Meg

    MegR
    September 4, 2001 - 12:12 pm
    Oops, sorry I forgot this one. Looked into my Mom's 1950ish version of Britannica & found and interesting entry on Metaxas. Forgot to take it to xerox & retype for us. Looked in their on-line site & came up w/ the following.

    www.britannica.com/search?query=Metaxas%2C%20Joannes&ct=

    If you click on "The Metaxas regime and WWII" you'll get info on him. Right below that is an entry for King George of Greece.

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 4, 2001 - 01:16 pm
    I have only just started to read this book and am struck by the humor and wit in the beginning. The description of the removal of an ancient pea from the ear of Stamatis is very funny, indeed. Dr. Iannis uses horrendously long medical words to describe what he's doing and has done to remove this aural offender, much in the same way that doctors try to snow their patients into submission and glorification of the skill of these Hippocratic masters today.

    Going on to the desciption of Cephallonia, there is still ironic humor. "Cephallonia is a factory that breeds babies
    for export." - - "This island betrays its own people in the mere act of existing." Apollo is described as "hyperbolically bisexual, and the only god to have a temple made for him by bees out of wax and feathers". About the prelapsarian light and color: "Strangers who land here are blinded for two days." -- "He went out into the yard and relieved himself into the patch of mint. He nitrogenated the herbs in strict rotation, and tomorrow it would be the turn of the oregano."

    With this as my introduction to this book, what do I expect? I'll tell you later after I read more.

    Mal

    Lorrie
    September 4, 2001 - 01:24 pm
    MEGR:

    Welcome back, and thanks for the neat suggestion. I will speak to our resident plumber and jack-0f-all-trades Miss Ginny to implement the changes in the heading, okay?

    Your reference to Metaxas, in the Brittancica thing, was very helpful. My memory of just what was going on in Greece at that particular time was hazy, and this cleared it up. Apparently Metaxas became the dictator during King George's reign, and when we read deBernieres Chapter 5, "The Man Who Said No," we begin to admire his resolute decision, despite all his agonizing over his daughter Lulu.

    MAL;

    Thank you for the link to that particular review. It's interesting to note that it was evidently Amazon's German link to the book. One of the readers' comment struck me---I had to agree with him, or her. He said "Apart from his irritating habit of putting six-syllable words into the mouths of peasants, Louis de Berniers has penned a masterpiece"........................

    Lorrie

    Ginny
    September 4, 2001 - 01:33 pm
    OK Lorrie and MegR, that's an excellent suggestion, we'll be getting stuff up in the heading in the next two days, and I'll go back thru the posts and extract stuff, so Lorrie will carry the conversational ball for a bit here while the jack of all trades master of none, hahhaha gets the stuff up.

    If you find something you thought should be included, please say so, should have it up and running in the next two days.

    ginny

    ALF
    September 4, 2001 - 01:36 pm
    Hello everyone ! I've been away from my 'puter for a few days due to the big Labor Day party (clam bake)that Bill and I throw each year. We've had a great deal of company and I've been busily preparing for the past week or so. Our company , as well as Bill, is now resting (PM naps) and I've snuck in to the computer to check this discussion. Mal: I am delighted to see you here. What you bring to a discussion always enhances my learning and if I don't understand something you always clarify it for me. It is of utmost importance that we get Dorien's health squared away . (Email to follow.)

    I know nothing of Greek wonders and you've piqued my interest with the Odysseus references. To me, this story is a song. I shall return when I can ask some questions.

    MegR
    September 4, 2001 - 03:29 pm
    Lorrie & Ginny

    Ok, I went over my notes on prior postings and have come up with a list of possible points. Feel free to edit/delete/add/reorder/"pretty" this up as you see fit, and then delete section I from this posting - if you want to use it.

    I. Possible Discussion Points to Be Examined More

    What are your impressions of:

    <per>•Mandras (Lorrie)

    •Doctor Iannis

    •Pelagio

    •Carlo

    •Patir Arsenios (treatment of him - Lorrie)(What is the author doing with [such]a representation of what normally would be the most respected man in the town?-Ginny)

    •the political implications of the author's portrayals of Mussolini and Metaxas (Italian fascist government/Greek monarch)(Lorrie - Chpts 2 & 5) and and their roles in Greek history (Ginny)

    •"History" as a theme -i.e - multiple versions of this part of WWII in Greece; individual characters' awareness or concern about their places in history; characters' perceptions/observations on how history is recorded

    •the implications of Dr. Iannis' "miraculous 'feat of medical prestidigitation'" with Stamatis as the opening action of this novel (Jonathan - Chpt.1)

    •Dr. Iannis' "ambitious, herculean task of writing The New History of Cephallonia . . . his difficulty shaking off the present . . .when he does - bigger-than-life Greek gods and mythic heroes take the stage" (Jonathan - Chpt. 1) - almost an innocent, Edenic setting - Carlo reiterates this later in Chpt. 24!(Meg)

    •the symbols of light which "God, Himself, (brings) with Him (to)Cephallonia that is 'completely virgin, produces clarity of focus, has heroic strength and brilliance, exposes colors in their original 'prelapsarian' state as though from the imagination of God in his youngest days.'" (Jonathan et al)

    •the author's loyalties in re to parties/nations/factions involved in the war in Greece (Traude)

    •de Bernieres' multiple injections of so many references to The Odyssey and other myths (Ginny)

    •". . . .'peasant books'are often tiresome as the author strives to - at the same time - let us IN to this happy involved seemingly simple life, but often uses such descriptions that he inevitably places a barrier between the folksy 'characters' and the reader." (Ginny)

    •possible themes, style and use of voice [author's & characters'] (Traude) and their effect on the storyline and the reader (Ginny)

    •the festival of St. Gerasimos and the ensuing activities: religious, social, presence of the nuns and "The Mad" (Lorrie & Meg)

    • What else?????</per>

    II. Request from First-Time Readers!

    Mea Culpa's - Ahead of Time! Know that I've become "The Nag" of this discussion, but I have to ask! Jonathan (Chpt.22info), Ginny (Chpt.22 info), Malryn (weeks 2 & 3 info) and someone else (can't find who) who gave away Carlo's fate & book's ending- PUHLEEZE! -- Don't give out upcoming info for those of us who are reading this for the first time!!!

    It's like going to amovie that you've eagerly anticipated seeing for some time, and when you finally get there, some Gabby-Gert behind you loudly tells her neighbor what's going to happen next and gives away the ending!. That immediate joy of discovery is stolen from the reader/viewer! Know that some of you have seen the movie and may be rereading this for the second or third thime. How 'bout a little consideration for us first-timers!!! We want to have the same enjoyment that you did when you first read this book!

    III. Thank You's!

    Mega Thanks to Traude, Lorrie, Ginny & all others who have supplied critical, geographic, historical and background info to help us appreciate the time & place settings of this text. You give us such rich gifts!

    IV. Re Character Lists

    Traude Here are the Italian names for "translation" or root meanings(?). Know it'll probably be impossible to convert some of these to English. Know also that this request/ need to know is one of my many quirks, but it'll hellp me. Thanks ahead of time!

    <per> •Farinacci - (grain brain??) •Soddu •Ciano •Curzio Malaparte ? (bad side/part?) •Grazzi •Jacomoni •Badoglio •Corelli •Carlo Piero Guercio - (Carl Peter ?) •DeVecchi •Prasca •Rivolta (?revoltin?) •Cavallero •Roalta •Gaetano Tavoni</per>

    Someone asked about Pelagia's name - the closest I could find was the Greek word pelagos which means "the sea".

    If anyone else knows the meaning of any of the Greeks on character list that I couldn't find, your help would be appreciated too!

    V. Recent & New "Comers"

    Fiery,Jeanlock, Malryn and any other new arrivals - stay with us, please!! All insights are valued! The more there are of us, the more perceptions we share, the richer our appreciation and understanding of this book becomes!

    Meg

    Ginny
    September 4, 2001 - 03:35 pm
    MegggggggR!! You modestly left out your own quotes we had already lifted, thank you SOO much, would have taken me forever, I will repair to the workroom where Pat W who created this heading will adapt!

    Many many many thanks!

    ginny

    Ginny
    September 4, 2001 - 03:45 pm
    Malryn, thank you for posting that review, I am reinforced in my theory (the reviewer went much further, had forgotten about that "Circe" like encounter, but I do, now that the subject of the Odyssey has been raised, also remember in the book a Scylla and Chrybdis reference that really seemed too much, but I digress). It sure makes this old farmer sitting here in pretty Pauline SC feel good to know she hasn't entirely lost her touch YET.

    ANYWAY, we can consider that idea and see if Mandras is an "Odysseus for the 21st Century," and we can see how the change in him is reflected in the change in our society over the centuries!!!

    YES!!!

    Great stuff here today, hello there Nurse Ratchett and welcome back!

    ginny

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 4, 2001 - 04:01 pm
    MegR, I'd love to take the credit, but I just began reading the book this afternoon and have only read a few pages of the first chapter up to now. Haven't seen the movie, either, as I said in a previous post. I haven't yet run into Carlo, nor do I have the vaguest idea what his fate is, much less the ending of the story. Let's be careful when we say, "J'accuse". Okay?

    Mal

    Hairy
    September 4, 2001 - 05:09 pm
    I haven't seen the movie either, but read the book in 1999 - one of my best reading years. I won't say much because my memory is hazy about the plot, etc., but I am enjoying the posts here. Something may bubble up from time to time, but I am here.

    I remember when reading this I would occasionally steal off to a little Greek restaurant with my book and have some coffee, order take-out and listen to the music while reading. Ooooh, talk about ambiance! I love Greek music and my greatest wish was to hear Corelli's mandolin music. I bought a CD of classical mandolin and played it at school occasionally, but it didn't have the right ring to it. I also got one of a history of mandolin music. That's a fun CD. I must have really enjoyed the book!

    Linda

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 4, 2001 - 05:22 pm
    I loved those Greek restaurants, too, Linda, but I think perhaps what you'd be hearing is a bouzouki or octave mandolin and not what Corelli as an Italian was playing. The book may prove me very, very wrong.

    Someone posted about the fact that Bernieres spoke of "the duce", rather than Il Duce. La, le, lo, il, gli all mean "the" in Italian, feminine singular, feminine plural, neuter, masculine singular, and another plural with gli, depending on the spelling of the noun. Pronounce that Ya-lee, only put it all very close together on your tongue like y'lee.

    If a British author wrote this book, which of course he did, why shouldn't he say "The Duce"? Wonder what the British pronunciation of duce was? In italiano, it is "doo-chay", as Ginny well knows.

    On to more of this fascinating book!

    Mal

    Hairy
    September 4, 2001 - 05:26 pm
    Oh, it was bouzoukia, Mal, but it set the tone. Oh, and the waiter was gorgeous so that didn't hurt any either! <g>

    Linda

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 4, 2001 - 05:48 pm
    When I was in my first Italian class in high school at the age of 15, my teacher, Signore Mosca, used to say, "Basta, basta."

    Now, to a New England white Anglo-Saxon Protestant kid who knew nothing about any language but English, except a year of Latin and a few months of French, that sounded pretty bad. The signore took me aside one time and told me what the word meant, and I felt better. It means "enough".

    My favorite word in Italian is "dolce" (dole-chay) which means sweet or soft. I can't tell you the number of operatic arias I've sung in Italian in my life, either forte or dolce.

    Mal

    MegR
    September 4, 2001 - 08:33 pm
    Mal, a thousand apologies! I scribble fast when I write notes. Obviously made a mistake about you "leaking" stuff! Thanks for the call on that.

    Ginny, At the end of Chapter 18, we have no clue about what has happened to Mandras or about why he has not written to Pelagia yet. Info on his war experiences, his journey or references to Odysseus do not appear until next week's reading - Chapter 22!!! Be nice - please - I'll promise Cummings'bribes if you do!!!!

    Lorrie
    September 4, 2001 - 10:23 pm
    LINDA:

    Hi, Hairy! ( I always giggle when I post your "handle!") I'm really glad to see your here, and even though it's been a while since you read the book, don't let that keep you from joining in. I have a feeling it will all come back to you.

    MEGR:

    What great suggestions for us to put up in that heading---Looks like you touched all bases there. And you are absolutely right about us jumping the gun here, as I found out at the very beginning of this discussion. So Everybody, please don't give away any part of the book that we haven't scheduled. For now, keep your comments focused on the first 18 chapters, Okay?

    JEANLOCK:

    Are you still with us? Don't let all these different voices throw you. I know you're still reading along, but we would still like to hear from you.

    MALRYN:

    It's interesting to see the derivation of certain words, isn't it? DeBernieres uses many foreign expressions in this book, but the emotions he is describing are so clear it's almost unnecessary to have the words translated. Also, some phrases are almost self-explanatory, aren't they? Like "basta!"-----to me that has a very satisfying ring.

    Okay, I now await the result of my esteemed colleague's magic fingers in our heading here!

    Lorrie

    MegR
    September 5, 2001 - 12:27 am
    Have been up reading & discovered something I missed before. Someone asked about de Bernieres'sympathies/allegiances in re to this novel.

    Just found his dedication for this book which may give us a clue. It says: "TO MY MOTHER AND FATHER who in different places and different ways fought against the Fascists and the Nazis, lost many of their closest friends, and were never thanked."

    Lorrie,

    Am having difficulties logging in. Have bookmarked this discussion site for quicker access. It comes up quickly, but when I log in, it takes me to the SN Welcome page. Then, I have to go to Books & Literature and pick Corelli again in order to get back to the discussion pages. This didn't happen with prior discussions. Am I doing something wrong, or is this just the new setup?

    Ginny
    September 5, 2001 - 04:07 am
    MegR, oh you're right, I'm so sorry, I got confused there for a moment in next week's rereading and mentioned the return of Mandras, SO sorry! That's what happens when you reread 25 chapters in a hurry!

    I do apologize, am usually better than that! Besides I don't want it to cost me Mr. Cumming's caramels!

    I'm not Lorrie (the Bridge Master) but will answer by saying that the new software may be causing some problems with login etc., I think they're working on it and we'll all hang tight till all the changes are complete.

    Pat Westerdale has been working on getting up some of the questions and themes into the headings, another new thing we are about to see in our new appearance is truncated headings, so there will be a lot of stuff in links, our days of long big headings are slowly going to be fazed out but we think we can creatively rise to this challenge and be better for it in the end.

    We'll have that heading up this morning and if anybody wants to raise new points they are certainly welcome.

    ginny

    Ginny
    September 5, 2001 - 05:34 am
    OK the new heading is up and in place, big thanks to Pat Westerdale and Lorrie for their help.

    The heading is a living thing and any person may add questions, themes or anything else they like.

    Thank you Traude for that possible etymological origin of Pelagia, that's intersting, I don't know why it makes me think of an albatross, strange sometimes how one's mind works.

    Jeanlock, I believe I agree this is not a translation for the reasons you mention, it does seem stilted in some parts tho I kind of like that seeming struggle the author has to communicate so brilliantly such a bare existance.

    Did you say you were going to the Library and what did you find? I may have missed that, for some reason I am not seeing new posts as I usually do, sorry if I have missed something that somebody said.

    OK in the heading are some thoughts for your consideration, and some good ones, too, do you have any thoughts on those or any other issue in the first 18 chapters?

    ginny

    Ginny
    September 5, 2001 - 05:44 am
    LINDA!!! I missed you in all the excitement of the new heading, Welcome In!!

    I don't know much about the mandolin or Greek music, the guy in the movie certainly could play tho. I love your enthusiasm.

    I have a Mobile Meals Route and the little guy who fixes the meals for us out in the country is Greek and I've been learning phrases from him for several years (he keeps saying that I don't need Greek, they all speak English there, they learn it in school) but his own English is not what you'd call...er...well, I love Iorgio and we have a great time together, so will lay on him Thursday some of these issues and see what he says.

    Let's see, his people live in....Sparta, I think.

    He and I are both going to Greece next year but not together. hahahahaa Or at the same time. ahahahaha

    What's a good question to ask him? About Metaxis? What Pelagia means? What else? It's possible he's seen the movie!

    Andrea, can you ask your Greek friend some of these questions even tho she does not have the book? Greek is Greek??

    ginny

    Lorrie
    September 5, 2001 - 07:37 am
    GINNY:

    Good Morning, you busy, busy, bee!! This heading will be just great with all the reference points, thanks to MegR, you, and Pat. I am soooo glad to have such capable people to help with all this technical stuff. I have the reputation of being the best spoiler in our site for ruining headings! hahaha Anyway, it looks great.

    Ginny, ask your Greek friend if it was true that most men gathered for breakfast at the taverna, as did the doctor and his friends, where women weren't allowed, supposedly. Just curious.

    I am still ruminating over that enigmatic Chapter 14. Apparently it was written by the Italian Minister in Athens, and who seems to be a good, decent man. His embarrassment over what happened at the Greek National Theatre's production of Madama Butterfly(page 92) was obvious, and it is my opinion that that final scene between him and Metaxas was truly poignant. "I had left him standing there in his flowery gown, a little man who was ridiculous in the eyes of most of the world, a little man, accursed with a notorious and intransigent daughter, unelected, who had just spoken to me with the voice of the entire people of Greece. It was Greece's finest hour and my country's most disgraceful. Metaxas had earned his place in history amongst liberators, caesars and kings, and I was left diminished and ashamed........" (p.97)

    Lorrie

    Lorrie
    September 5, 2001 - 08:18 am
    MEGR:

    About your problem logging on here---I have the same frustration, and I feel like growling at all this what i see as unnecessary clicking, but I am told this is part of the glitches in our new "face-lift."

    That is a real intriguing dedication that you posted, isn't it? It would be wonderful to know just what the author meant. The facts about this author are very few. I do realize he treasures his privacy ferociously, perhaps that's why there are not more interviews about his personal life.

    Lorrie

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 5, 2001 - 10:35 am
    I have now finished reading 12 chapters of this book. To me the chapters before chapter 12 are like a Greek chorus with members of the chorus giving background and establishing the characters. I grew somewhat impatient with this literary technique and wanted the play to begin. It remains to be seen whether beautifully written chapter 12 is the opening of the curtains after the prologue or not.

    I must agree with Ginny that Pelagia seems like a bit of a shrew.

    Velisarios has been compared with Herakles in the article, Myth and Modernity, as has Carlo.

    Carlo is a wonderful character, who found his proper place in the army among the men he loved and understood. To paraphrase: "It seemed as if someone wanted to start a little war."

    I've known several alcoholic priests in my life. Though they were recovering their sobriety when I knew them, it's highly possible that their behavior when drinking was similar to that of Father Arsenios when they were drunk. That, too, is a wonderful characterization by Bernieres. It does not disturb me at all that this character has been created by the author in the well-crafted way that it is.

    Happy-go-lucky Mandras is not right for Pelagia, it is clear. Pelagia wants to talk about war; he wants to talk about kisses. The realist and the romantic?

    The portrayal of Mussolini is great, as is that of Metaxas. They appear to be cut from the same cloth. Metaxas says to himself: "Metaxa, history will say that it was opportunism, that you could not succeed by democratic means." He also says, "But I have done my best. I have done everything to prepare for this war that I still work to avoid......Let history say that I was the man who did everything possible to save his native land. Everything ends in death." Two fascists, both called egomaniacs and megalomaniacs, both trying to save their native lands (and rule the world?).

    There are so many references to Greek mythology that to research them would mean I'd have no time to read the book. It reminds me of another discussion where the references were so carefully researched by us readers that we forgot all about the book which was the center of the discussion. It appears to me that Bernieres has his characters answer most of the questions which came to my mind thus far.

    Now to go on and see if this play has really begun.

    Mal

    ALF
    September 5, 2001 - 10:44 am
    Yes Mal, you are so right stating Mandras is not a suitable mate for Pelagia. Even her Papakis tells her "he isn't your equal, and he would expect to be better than his wife. He is a man, after all." He then suggests that her happiness would probably be with a foreigner. This is the point where he gives his daughter a gun to keep for necessity, "during the war."

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 5, 2001 - 12:20 pm
    Andrea, you were a chapter ahead of me in your post. When Pelagia tells her father, the doctor, that Mandras has asked her to marry him, he gives his daughter a gun, a phallic symbol, not one of fertility but one of death and destruction. Think about the symbolism here.

    If my hunch is correct about the literary devices Bernieres used writing this novel, Grazzi's statement, "There, I have told you what happened. I hope you're satisfied", is addressed by him in chapter 14 as a member of the chorus to the audience.

    On pages 121, 122 and 123 of the book I have, Dr. Iannis details the history of Cephallonia and the invasions and occupations by foreign forces which it had withstood. Italy occupied the island for 600 years. Interesting.

    In my estimation, Bernieres is a devilishly clever writer, who details ancient and modern history through the mouths and pens of his characters.

    The curtain on the proscenium arch is up, but the chorus has not left. So many memories I have of studying classical Greek plays when I took some theater courses in college.

    P.S. Puttees is not an unfamiliar word to me, since they are mentioned often in books about World War I. What a pain in the neck! The darned things get wet, freeze, the legs swell and feet suffer. Poor Carlo.

    Mal

    Nellie Vrolyk
    September 5, 2001 - 12:59 pm
    Hahahah! Now here I was wondering why no one mentioned me after I made such a lovely little post about reading the book and joining in with the discussion yesterday. But upon checking I find that said post does not exist. I guess it was lost when I couldn't get back into SN after clicking on Post My Message.

    So here I am again to say that I have the book and am reading and hope that I can join this discussion.

    One of the things that reminded me of the Odyssey was Pelagia undoing the bedspread she is crochetting. It seems to parallel Penelope's undoing of her weaving in the Odyssey.

    Ginny, Chapter 14, since the speaker is or was the Italian Ambassador to Greece, and the whole thing sounds like a report he is giving, I assume he is speaking to Il Duce (Mussolini) and that it ends abruptly because he (the ambassador) has finished his report.

    More thoughts later. Hopefully this time my post won't disappear into cyberspace never to be seen again.

    Lorrie
    September 5, 2001 - 01:51 pm
    NELLIE:

    Well, hi there! Yes, when I read the first part of your post I immediately thought, "Oh oh, how did I miss Nellie's post, of all things," and went scurrying back to see where you were, then felt immeasurable relief when I read the rest of your post. Well now you are here, showing your comments, and very welcome you are, too!

    Yes, I compared that too, the constant unraveling of the bedcover that Pelagia kept doing with Penelope's weaving. There are so many instances where the events written about in the book seem to paralell the Greek tragedies we all have read. Good comparison, Nellie!

    MAL:

    The "Greek Chorus" simile is so apt here, don't you think?

    However, in your Post #108 you said"Two fascists, both called egomaniacs and megalomaniacs, both trying to save their native lands (and rule the world?)."

    I found the character of Metaxas, as depicted in Chapter 14, pages 95-97, to be quite sympathetic. Especially that last paragraph on page 97 that I have mentioned before. Mussolini was hateful, yes, but I don't think I would paint Metaxas with the same brush.

    Lorrie

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 5, 2001 - 02:06 pm
    MegR, it is suggested by SeniorNet that we do not bookmark these sites since the URLs of the pages change almost daily. Rather, if you want quick access to this site, click "Subscribe" at the bottom of the messages on this page. When you click "Check subscriptions" you will be told if there are new messages on these pages.

    I don't subscribe to any folder or discussion, but rather go to the RoundTables and find the site I want to access. I don't mind the extra clicks!

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 5, 2001 - 02:12 pm
    Lorrie, I was partially basing what I posted about Metaxas on an article which you can see by clicking the link below. This is a translation, so please wait for the download.

    The Facist Regime of Ioannis Metaxas

    Lorrie
    September 5, 2001 - 03:27 pm
    Mal, that is an excellent article on the Metaxas regime! I want to print it out to refer to later. I have some errands to do, so will be back in a while.

    Lorrie

    MegR
    September 5, 2001 - 07:33 pm
    Traude,

    You asked me for a list of Italian names (way back when) for possible translations into English equivalents. I included those in a note to you within a longer post, and somehow they were transposed to a source category above!???? I facetiously supplied "root" meaning for some - but really don't know Italian or what they mean. The Greek names that I did find are in character list, but I don't have all of them by any stretch of the imagination. If you can "translate" any of these, would you let Master Elves Ginny & Lorrie know so they can add your info to the list? Thanks, Meg

    Traude
    September 5, 2001 - 07:53 pm
    My goodness, it is difficult to keep up with you all !

    Mal, it is good to have you with us here. Welcome Nellie. Indeed, Pelagia's unraveling of the bedspread-to-be is eerily reminiscent of Penelope's handiwork, done for different reasons. I doubt Pelagia is conscious of WHY she is doing it; but Penelope did her unraveling on purpose, to keep the suitors at bay.

    The homeric allusions are unmistakeable, but we ought to be prepared for perceptual shifts; deB applies his own twists to the legendary Greek figures.

    Mal, your musical heart will be delighted by Corelli's Mandolin feats ! This is not remotely anything like "O sole mio" or "Funicoli funicola".

    Lorrie, I quite agree with you. Metaxas was a well-intentioned man who loved Greece and was not out for his own interest, totally unlike the megalomaniacal Mussolini; Metaxas is ultimately a tragic figure.

    Not unlike Grazzi, the Italian Ambassador in Athens, who was duped, lied to, kept in the dark, and then forced to deliver that fatal ultimatum to Prime Minister Metaxas. The latter, to his infinite credit, turned it down; and thus began the Greco-Italian war and the Italian invasion. I hope to be permitted to say here what has already been pictorially shown in the links : that the effort failed miserably and rather quickly; the Italians were driven back into Albania.

    Chapter 14 represents, I think, a rueful soliloquy by Grazzi, not addressed to anyone in particular, but rather an attempt to reconstruct how it all happened, how he was forced by the vainglorious Duce to play the role of the villain, as laid out in the body of chapter 14. He had reassured his anxious Greek friends, in good faith and with a clear conscience, not knowing himself what treachery was planned in Rome--- until the evening of the late-night reception and party, when the telegraphic orders began arriving from Rome and he, the highest diplomatic representative of his country, Italy, went in person to the home of the dying Metaxas to hand-deliver the fatal ultimatum (quoted in he novel), which was, in practical terms, a declaration of war. It is hardly surprising that he felt "diminished and ashamed", ashamed for himself and his country, personally embarrassed, mentally and emotionally drained, in short - exhausted. And that's why and how the chapter ended. There was simply nothing left to say.



    As I see it, each and every chapter is a story in itself, and such is the skill of deB that he carries the plot forward, events mesh and are paralleled, reflected in the eyes of different characters and protagonists, which produces a multi-faceted picture of increasing sharpness. And it is all the creation of a single mind ! Imagine it !

    Meg, I will have to get back to your questions about Italian names and their translations, and I am in the process of doing so now. Patience, or pazienza, as they say in Italian.

    BTW Mal, I thought everybody knew what 'basta basta' means, what with all those Italians in this country !! Remember the North End of Boston ?

    Back later

    MegR
    September 5, 2001 - 08:09 pm
    The beginning of this novel keeps swimming in my brain & won't let go. Have been thinking about it & made some discoveries. It starts:

    Dr. Iannis had enjoyed a satisfactory day in which none of his patients had died or got any worse. . . .and had produced a miracle by a feat of medical prestidigitation. He chuckled to himself, for no doubt this miracle was already being touted as worthy of St. Gerasimos himself."

    From the opening lines, we know that Dr. I has a sense of humor, treats human and animal patients, and connects himself to the resident "miracle-maker".

    The ensuing scene with Stamatis and the pea extraction makes us chuckle, appreciate the doctor's treatment of his patient with dignity, understand that the doc is of above average intelligence. But, it kept bugging me - WHY did de Bernieres start with this event? Think answer comes from effects of this miracle cure. When the pea is extracted, Stamatis is no longer deaf in one ear & he and his wife rejoice. BUT, in chapter 7, Stamatis no longer wants to hear. He wants Dr. I to replace the "papilionaceous and exorbitant auditory impediment"! WHY?

    Stamatis wants to return to his previous state of blissful ignorance. He doesn't want to hear his wife, her opinions of him, her lists of his shortcomings. He wants to return to a state of not hearing, of not knowing, of ignorance/innocence. He doesn't like what he hears now in his "two-earred" world. Stamatis is like many of his other islanders who seem to prefer that simpler, more innocent life and doesn't want to acknowledge harsher realities.

    Examples:

    <per>•The Cephallonians don't want to hear/acknowledge the possibility of war in the first 7 or 8 chapters.

    •Both Mandras and Pelagia seem so exuberantly engrossed in the physical attributes of the other (which is quite natural for their ages) that they choose not to honestly communicate w/ each other. They don't talk with one another about their suitability as marriage partners, about their views of and expectations for marriage. Blissful ignorance overrides common sense (which is also understandable for first and young loves).

    •The islanders tune out and choose to not acknowledge rumors of possible approaching war by escaping into the celebratory excesses of St. Gerasimos' feast day.

    •Patir Arsenios numbs himself with wine, food, self-pity, and what-if dreams to avoid hearing/acknowledging what he has become & how his parishoners see him. Etc.</per>

    It seems as if this desire of Stamatis to not hear, not know, not admit, not accept mirrors that of his fellow islanders before the invasion. Will have to see if this avoidance issue is elsewhere. Does this make any sense?

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 5, 2001 - 08:18 pm
    Traude, when I was the only kid of English background learning the Italian language in a classroom filled with kids of Italian background, I thought and heard and learned phonetically while I memorized vocabulary.

    You live in Massachusetts, but you are not a native New Englander as I was, and you may never have heard the word "bastard" pronounced "bah-sta" with the R and D at the end of the word not audible.

    I was not allowed to know any kids of Italian origin when I was growing up. They lived on "the hill" and smelt like garlic. That was not acceptable in my family. For that reason, I never went to the "North End" of Boston.

    We natives of my part of northern Massachusetts never could say the letter R in my hometown. A's were long like Ah. Maybe we'll meet someday, and you'll hear the remnants of my New England accent. Basta!

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 5, 2001 - 08:31 pm
    Father Arsenios' behavior is typical alcoholic behavior. That behavior has nothing to do with self-pity, what-if dreams, or anything else except addiction, and Bernieres portrays that addiction very, very well.

    Mal

    MegR
    September 5, 2001 - 08:39 pm
    Must be all that sanding dust reaching my brain. Sander's too loud for music, so, I've been thinking about a few things - this festival is another. Lorrie's repeatedly asked about it in Chapter 12. Lots goes on there, but when I went back to recheck it, made two more discoveries.

    1. St. Gerasimos is so popular (or needed!?) in Cephallonia that he has TWO feast days during the year. [Does that mean that there are so many madmen on the island that St. G. has to work twice as often to cure them? (laughing)

    2. The date of his feast day is significant. "It was on the eighth day before Metaxas rejected the ultimatum of the Duce."

    This was preceded by almost two months of very unusual events - sort of like all those strange precursers before old Julius cried out, "Et tu, Brute!" These included:

    <per>•a lily of Our Lady of Demountsandata "erupts in blooms from its desiccated state"

    •"...a horde of non-venomous snakes, unknown to science, embellished with black crosses on their heads and skin like velvet... wriggled out of...nothingness...filled the streets, approached the silver icon of the Virgin, installed themselves on the bishop's throne...and disappeared"

    •in"ruined castle of Kastro" Roman ghosts "demand passwords of Normans and French"; British ghosts play dice w/ Turks, Catalans & Venetians; in Fiskardo, Guiscard's ghost roars on ramparts, braying for Greek blood and treasure

    •in Argostole, the sea pours inexplicably into sink-holes to the bowels of the earth and disappears.

    •a puzzled zoologist reports that some wild hares and goats have gold and silver teeth

    •St. Gerasimos rises from his coffin and roams at night •´Etc.</per>

    Then,the mood changes. The author gives the Cephallonians an incredibly perfect, idyllic day. It's almost as if Nature's in cahoots with them to provide an almost eden-like setting.

    What follows is the opportunity to blissfully experience a glorious and unusual escape from daily life. We see the anticipation and social exchanges of the islanders, the mystery & mysticism of St. G's story, service and cures, the Carnivale-like festival that reaches an excessive frenzy of drunkeness, exuberation, and uncontrolled energy. Seems like a last supper for the man about to be executed.

    MegR
    September 5, 2001 - 08:49 pm
    Yeah, Mal, so what's the point? So Arsenios does drink, AND he does express self-pity, AND he does play the what-if game with himself, AND he doesn't like who/what he's become, AND he tries to avoid acknowledging his own weaknesses. None of these characteristics demand an exclusion of the others. I must be in stupid-brain mode from lack of sleep & from inhaling too much sawdust, cause I don't get what you said above? Can ya explain a little more?

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 5, 2001 - 09:06 pm
    Meg, explaining addiction would demand more time and space than what is available here. Robby Iadeluca is more or less an authority on this, so if you're interested, please contact him. Since we're discussing a book that is not primarily about this problem, it's simpler if I accept what you say.

    Mal

    Traude
    September 5, 2001 - 09:07 pm
    Meg, yes, I too noticed that your list of names and suggested root translations of some of them appeared as mine under my name in a source category. I am sure Ginny and Lorrie are reading here and will do whatever magical techie elves do for clarification.

    On translating names : not all names are translatable, or traceable to a recognizable etymological root. And that applies to both first and last names. The last name "Rivolta" is fairly easy, but I have to go into Italian grammar to explain. The first name "Gaetano" has no English equivalent.

    Let me get to Curzio Malaparte, that may be of interest. First we need to know that the appellation of "idiotic snob with the ironic and twisted sense of humour" is Grazzi's in chapter 14. Malaparte was an Italian writer born in 1898. Curzio Malaparte was his pen name and is easy to translate. Curzio = Curt; Malaparte as you suggested. The writer contrasted his name with that of Napoleon; the latter was born in 1769 as Napoleone Buonaparte in Ajaccio on the island of Corsica. He later dropped the "e" of his first and the "u" of his last name and became Napoleon Bonaparte.

    I don't know whether Malaparte was a snob or not, or what sort of a man he was, other than that he effectively cast his lot alternately with the forces of fascism and democracy. He was an articulate writer. He wrote Kaputt (1944), which is an account of his experiences wih Hitler's army during the Russian campaign, and La Pelle (The Skin) in 1949 : It is a description of his activity as a liaison officer with the U.S. Fifth Army in post-war Naples with some quite horrendous scenes.

    More to come.

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 5, 2001 - 09:29 pm
    Traude: About Metaxas, as quoted from the article translated from the Spanish that I linked earlier.
    "Thus the Greek fascismo was born. Metaxas, declared admiring of Nazi Germany, created in just a short time a Greek version of the Third Reich. The Greek fascismo - rather we would say nacionalsocialismo, because the regime of Metaxas looked more like the Hitler Germany than to Italy mussoliniana-had the endorsement of ultranationalist groups like the anti-semite Ethniki Enosis. (EEE, Greek National Union), the Greek Nazi Party of George Merkouri or the Sidera Irini."

    Lorrie
    September 5, 2001 - 09:46 pm
    MAL:

    I do not deny that Metaxas was a Fascist, but I do believe that this author presented him in a much more sympathetic light than he did Il Duce, for example. It makes one wonder just what de Berieres political leanings would have been in those days, doesn't it? Apparently there was no love lost between Grazzi, the Italian Ambassador, and Mussolini's followers. He says, ( as de Bernieres writes):

    "Mussolini and Ciano humiliated me, and I will never forgive them for forcing me to rely on the propaganda of the Stefani Agency as my sole source of information. Information? It was all lies, and even the Greeks knew more about the impending invasion than I did." (page 92)

    MEGR:

    I liked the sort of impending doom miasma that surrounded the start of the saint's festival, I admit, like the sea pouring down the sink-holes, the blossoming lily, and the snakes crawling through the streets. It gives the whole thing an air of "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we shall die," doesn't it? So far in my reading at this point, I have two favorite chapters---12 and 14.

    TRAUD:

    I must confess I stand in awe of your prowess with the derivation of words, and in this case, will let you take the lead. I'm araid I'm woefully ignorant of languages, much to my regret.

    By the way, the changes in the heading that you and MegR were discussing I will take up with Mistress Lucky Fingers at her ealiest convenience.

    lORRIE

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 6, 2001 - 07:34 am
    There is mention that Dr. Iannis gave Pelagia a book of poetry by Constantine Cavafy. Because I was interested in what he thought his daughter should be reading, I did a search and came up with a few of the poems.

    Poems by Constantine Cavafy

    It is true that General Metaxas is drawn in a more sympathetic way than Mussolini is. Mussolini was a brute. Metaxas was not. It is also true that Metaxas is near his death and weak and vulnerable, as is Cephallonia weak and vulnerable. It is, however, hard for me to forgive the Nazi-leaning fascism of Metaxas, which was different from the fascism of Mussolini.

    Lorrie asked what political leanings Bernieres might have had in those days. I believe I read that some of Berniere's family had suffered at the hands of fascists, so one would assume that he very much disliked fascism.

    Like Ginny, I am often annoyed with the way this book is written. From what I have read thus far, I would say that Bernieres is an intelligent, talented and facile writer, but at times the beauty and strength of his writing is lost because of the cobwebby techniques he uses here.

    Berniere's writing has been compared to Dickens. The festival of St. Gerasimos is very Dickensian. It also reminds me of paintings by Pieter Brueghel the Younger.

    Wonder if Captain Corelli plays music by Arcangelo Corelli?

    Mal

    Lorrie
    September 6, 2001 - 07:41 am
    Who is Captain Corelli?

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 6, 2001 - 07:57 am
    That was funny, Lorrie! I did see on page 100 that Carlo is filling his dreams with reveries of Captain Antonio Corelli whose mind is full of "whirling mandolins". Maybe that's where I got the idea.

    Mal

    Traude
    September 6, 2001 - 08:19 am
    Well, Mal, you just have to read on to find out. Since assigned chapters are our modus operandi , it is incumbent upon us to follow it, nolens volens .

    Weeks ago I pointed out that this book requires patience, that it is clearly not to everyone's taste, and that some of the scatological references did not sit too well with me. But that does not deter from the intrinsic value of this book as a whole.

    I realize I haven't taken up some points raised by Jonathan. I am sorry. Without giving anything away, I agree with him that there is Rabalaisian humor in this book, and also satire and irony. Also I agree with him that we should go on reading without stopping at each word to puzzle over meaning. There is so much more to come ! Corelli does not appear until chapter 24, after all. This is just a very long preparation for his arrival.

    Pelagia was headstrong and wilful. She had unusual intelligence, was brought up by a single father in a way, one surmises, he would have brought up a son, and she certainly was temperamental.

    As for Mandras, I have no idea whether the author intended him to be modern day Odysseus. We might read the whole story and THEN decide.

    (An aside, Marilyn, I have lived in Massachusetts since 1974 and am quite familar with the Boston accent. Interesting to hear from you that there was a prejudice against Italians as you were growing up; akin perhaps to the infamous "No Irish Need Apply" ?? To them, Boston was not exactly a welcoming place. I still have trouble fully grasping the notion of, the reason for the continued existence, and the intense racial tension between the tight separate ethnic communities within the city of Boston. But I digress, this is not what are here to discuss.)

    Lorrie, please, I don't mean to usurp any leadership here. I just wanted to contribute what I know from personal experience, my limited and subjective perspective at the time and in retrospect to the best of my ability.

    And yes, Lorrie, only men were allowed in the coffeehouse. And the women abided by the unwritten rule without question -- I say, more power to Pelagia for ignoring the taboo to enter the men's inner sanctum in a moment of crisis. That took guts.

    More later.

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 6, 2001 - 08:27 am
    Traude, the accent in Haverhill, Massachusetts, which is right on the New Hampshire line, is not a Boston accent, believe me.

    When I was growing up, there were pockets of ethnic groups in my hometown. French and Italians lived on "the hill". Those of Armenian and Polish extraction lived somewhere else. Jews lived on Columbia Park. White Anglo-Saxon Protestants lived on the south side of this small city. African Americans, what few there were, lived on Ashland Street. There were a few Greek and Irish families. Rarely did one ethnic group mingle with another.

    Mal

    Lorrie
    September 6, 2001 - 08:30 am
    Yup. you're right, Mal, the very first mention we have of the romantic Captain is on page 100, and it's more of a brief aside than anything.

    All right, everyone, do you think we have covered the politics mentioned so far in the book? If anyone has any more to add, please do, by all means.

    I'm beginning to think there isn't enough said about that young man who swam with the dolphins, Mandras. Do more of you, like MegR, think that Mandras considers himself unworthy of Pelagia? And do you think he secretly resents the fact that the good doctor will not give his daughter a dowry?

    Jeanlock, are you still with us? Jonathon, where are you?

    Lorrie

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 6, 2001 - 08:38 am
    In post # 78, Jonathan said, "It's time to be off to Mt Aenos, to herd the goats with Alekos." Because of this, I have a funny feeling he might be hiking in the mountains, something he's very fond of doing.

    Mal

    Ginny
    September 6, 2001 - 10:17 am
    I have 18 new posts to read of yours which I will print out, am in a storm, and if something needs my doing will do when I return, 18 new posts, whee! I look forward to them!




    Ok I'm back from Mobile Meals and have talked to George, my Greek friend, and have a few things to report from him, he has not seen the movie but says apparently he needs to, all his customers keep asking him things about it, and if he can, he would be glad to help out.

    First off I wrote out Pelagia and he looked at it and said "Pel Ah Ghee a?" which is how anybody would say it at first glance.

    And I said in the movie it was pronounced Pel a Yee a and he said, oh, "ocean," and went into a long thing in half Greek half English about pelos or something and logos, anyway apparently whoever said it was sea was right on. Apparently.

    Next I wrote out Metaxis and he said it referred to alcohol and I said no it's a war hero or leader in WW II with Mussolini and he said oh his father knew those things, he did not, he had heard his father's stories. His father is still alive back in Sparta so it's possible we might get some sort of his input.

    He says it's Keff a lon EEEa and the accent is on the EEE a.

    Then I asked him about this custom of men going to the tavernas in the morning for breakfast and he said was once but is no more. Once men and women went separately, no more. This new generation? The women don't want the men going without them so they go too, it's over. But, he said, in church, is the same. Men on one side, women on the other (I didn't know that). So I found that interesting.

    I'm sure as we ask various Greek sources we will get various answers, depending on the person we ask? So I'm going to be bringing you what George thinks and if one of you finds a completely differing view, fine, we'll just have some great things brought to the table.

    For instance, if you asked an American (and I realize America is a huge country) but if you asked an American was it ever the custom here for men to go out to breakfast in a restaurant without their wives, I think the answer would depend on who you talked to.

    My own father in law, until he died, met daily in the small south Georgia town in which he lived, the men of the town for breakfast? There were no women present but I doubt they would be turned away, they just simply did not want to go. So when Lorrie asked that question it did not seem strange, at all, to me, that men would do that.

    It amazes me how many habits of cultures are similar.

    ginny

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 6, 2001 - 10:43 am
    "Metaxa is a special Greek spirit, invented by a silk trader named Spyros Metaxas." For more information, please click the link below.
    Metaxa

    Lorrie
    September 6, 2001 - 11:08 am
    Oh, Ginny, those are wonderful references! Looks like we have a real source there in your George, and when you next see him will you ask him if it is still the custom in Greece for the young girls to have dowries? That seemed to be a point of resentment, at least to me, with Mandras.

    This is turning out to be a great discussion! What wonderful sources we have, you with your "client" George, Traud with her foreign language references, Mal with her helpful related links, MegR with those probing questions, and now when Jonathan returns from Mt. Aenos, after wandering the mountain with Alekos and his goats, what tales he can tell!

    There's one little aside here I would like to mention. A great deal was written about that little pine marten that Lemoni found, and who they called Psepsina, described in such endearing terms by the author. When we lived in the "boonies" of northern Wisconsin, I saw these creatures occasionally, and to me they were simply "weasels." I found them repugnant and vicious, and certainly would never want one for a pet, but to each his own. Perhaps the pine martens on the island have a different personality than the ones in Wisconsin. Hahaha

    Lorrie

    Traude
    September 6, 2001 - 11:58 am
    Lorrie, yes, it would seem that for now, within the confines of the first group of chapters that are our assignment, the historical aspects and confusing politics of the time are covered. As the story proceeds, other questions might possibly arise.

    Corelli makes his actual appearance on the "stage" of the book in chapter 24.

    As for the question of the dowry, I think it bothered Mandras less than it did Pelagia, at least in the beginning, because it went so totally against the expected custom and she feared she would be derided by everyone.

    They were just kids, attracted to each other. I believe Mandras did not feel, at first, in the beginning of the courtship, that he was "inferior" to Pelagia - that realization came later. He liked what he was doing, fishing and frolicking with the dolphins, bringing Pelagia fish fresh from the ocean and generally clowning around.

    Her letters to him at the front (Chapter 16) are eloquent and reveal quite a few things.

    Re "puttees" : a puttee is a long strip of cloth, wrapped spirally around the leg from ankle to knee; puttees were once worn by soldiers, ostensibly as protection. On page 101, Carlo says that he hates them, has difficulty putting them on just so, and has never understood their purpose.

    jeanlock
    September 6, 2001 - 04:12 pm
    Before I read everyone else's posts, I'd like to make mine. Otherwise, it would be influenced by others' reactions.

    About the Ulysses references--I gather that this is the island that was Ulysses' home, thus the locals would be as aware of those events as my local Fredericksburgians are of Civil War events.

    As I have read many of the sections, I keep thinking of "Catch 22". This book shows the absurdity of war as Heller did in that book.

    Not having had a college education, I have never had the training or exposure to seeking out underlying ideas in a book. I'm pretty much a practical person, and figure that "what I see is what I get".

    I'm especially liking Pelagia's thoughts about marriage and what it would mean to her. I was particularly struck by her musings about marrying Mandras, and her carrying it on to the point where he dies and says she feels a strange feeling of relief.

    Lorrie
    September 6, 2001 - 07:45 pm
    JEANLOCK:

    "The absurdity of war," of course. The same feelings I had when I read that haunting poem by Wolfe "The Soldier," at the very beginning of this novel.

    Lorrie

    english38
    September 7, 2001 - 03:44 am
    This is a book which without doubt is one which I shall read over and over.....a classic which is 'readable', but which has so much meat,and works on so many planes.

    It is a love story, a composition on the futility of War, it is philosophical, an acutely observed record of human feeling, a retelling of Greek mythology,and it is a black comedy. It records accurately, popular European perceptions of the Greek and Italian leaderships; caricatures formed by propaganda.. and local humour.It is both a travelogue and historical record.

    Above all I feel that it is a portrayal of the helplessness of man in the hands of fate....or men as the playthings of the gods...a truly Greek theme.

    Ginny
    September 7, 2001 - 07:09 am
    English 38! Welcome welcome!! We are delighted to see you here and add you to our fabulous roster of voices, I think you are the 14th, not sure, what a joy it would be to have all l4 of us chime in on one day!

    Am totally behind here but was struck by what Jeanlock said on Pelagia's feelings about Mandras. She was almost relieved.

    Why?

    What changed her mind, the fact that he did not write back?

    Her father as does all fathers, does not think Mandras is good enough for her? That's not startling. He tells her that as a man Mandras would naturally want to feel superior to his wife? And that's not startling either, is it? Was it, to you?

    Is it true? Did it startle you to see it so boldly laid out? Or are we in this new millennium (I don't know whether to say 21st century or not) so used to "equal marriages," that we reject this idea?

    The issue of whether or not Mandras felt superior to Pelagia has been raised?

    What do you think? The Mandras we see here in these first 18 chapters, do you think he feels any superiority to Pelagia, is this the norm for his village, or life, he is, after all, a fisherman?

    These are good issues, good character issues and I have printed out all the posts you've made and will get the new points in the heading up shortly.




    Meanwhile I've got tons to bring to the table this morning, first up: an article from the British Magazine The Guardian, De Berniers and Greek History: the Cephalonians respond:
    Greek myth The book is a huge success, now there's to be a film. But in Cephalonia, where Captain Corelli's Mandolin is set, veterans feel their campaign against the Nazis has been defamed. None more so than the real Captain Corelli.


    CAUTION! This atricle does refer to events in the book and movie beyond Chapter 18~

    "We are at war with Louis de Bernières," the Cephalonians view De Bernieres and the movie

    More to come.....

    ginny

    Ginny
    September 7, 2001 - 07:21 am
    English 38, your email bounced, click on my name if you wish, and drop me a line, you may have made a small mistake in listing it, at any rate, you're very welcome here.

    ginny

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 7, 2001 - 07:41 am
    It's an interesting article, Ginny, which goes way off my screen and shows the html coding. Can't figure out how to word wrap it. My impression was that Bernieres treated the Italians, Greeks, Germans, British as people more than bringing out national characteristics. Extreme situations like war bring out extreme reactions with the personality and character of the people showing in how they behave.

    Since a dowry was traditional at that time, it seems as if both Pelagia and Mandras are afflicted with the "What will people think if there isn't one?" syndrome.

    The impression I received is that Dr. Iannis was telling his daughter that in Greece men loved their mothers and beat their wives. If Mandras has any feeling of superiority, it is perhaps only because he is male, don't you think? I think he has a feeling of inferiority because he's illiterate and Pelagia is not.

    I have now finished reading the entire book. Some parts of it are masterful and powerful writing. Some aren't. In the section we've read thus far, chapter 12 stands out as an excellent piece of writing, in my estimation. I don't want to talk about what's beyond chapter 18, but there was one chapter where I was thoroughly confused about who the narrators are. I'd love to watch the movie just to see how in the world the film-makers put it all together.

    Mal

    Leann Yngsdal
    September 7, 2001 - 08:42 am
    Hi: My name is Leann. I have the book now but I haven't started it yet. Could someone please let me know about how far in the book all of you are so far. Thank You, and I look forward to joining all of you. Happy reading! Leann

    jeanlock
    September 7, 2001 - 08:45 am
    My interpretation of Pelagia's "feeling almost relieved" as she mused about the course of her married life including the eventual death of Mandras is that she was feeling a little reluctant to take on marriage with all that it involves.

    Another thing finally hit me last night. I think we CAN safely liken Pelagia to Penelope in the Odyssey. Think of all the mentions of the bed cover she is making, and keeps ripping out for one reason or another. Also, the waistcoat she is making for Mandras.

    jeanlock
    September 7, 2001 - 09:00 am
    English38--

    Yes, yes--"the helplessness of man in the hands of fate."

    Ginny--

    Do you think the reason the Dr. disapproves of Mandras is because he has brought Pelagia up to think and question things instead of just concerning herself with just household things as the other women do. He sees Mandras as not being able to share that with her, and knows (as we all must if we have ever made the same mistake) that sooner or later it will not be enough. Thinking of the scene with Mandras and the porpoises, I see him as a "nature boy"--unsophisticated and un-intellectual.

    Malryn--

    I don't see Mandras as feeling superior to Pelagia at all. I doubt if it would occur to him. But, he does see her as just a woman in a society where the woman is always less than the man. Thinking of the scene with Mandras and the porpoises, I see him as a "nature boy"--unsophisticated and un-intellectual.

    I have read all the background material I printed out about the war and politics in October 1940. It is very interesting indeed. If anyone would like me to find that link again and post it, I'll be glad to do it. This is the piece that includes an interview with a man (Albanian, I think) who was actually in that fracas. Also, I'd like to see a map of the area showing where Greece and Cephalonia are with relation to Bulgaria and Albania. I have a general idea, but no specifics. Just never thought about it before.

    Lorrie
    September 7, 2001 - 09:04 am
    ENGLISH38:

    Now that was a superb post! It looks to me as though your perception of this book is many-fold. I like the different levels you named in which you see this story. Welcome to our group!

    LEANN::

    Welcome, welcome!

    Don't worry about being behind in your reading of this book, Leann. As you can see by the schedule in the heading above, we are just beginning with the first 18 chapters. Most of the discussion so far, as you can see if you scroll back to previous posts, has been about the early characters, some coparisons with Greek legends, some politics, and a lot of background material. We are delighted to see you here, just chime in any time--believe me when I say we are truly interested in what you have to say, and that goes to you, also, english38!

    Lorrie

    Lorrie
    September 7, 2001 - 09:19 am
    I am so pleased to see the new people who have been reaading the book and wish to discuss it! Hooray for you all!

    We are getting violent thunderstorms here off and on, so I shall be scurrying in and out of here as that wretched lightning crackles.

    Jeanlock, I agree with your perception of how the good doctor is educating Pelagia. Hers is not the usual run-of-the-mill education that most of the island youths receive, I imagine, and what a wonderful doctor she will make!

    Great article, Ginny!

    Lorrie

    patwest
    September 7, 2001 - 09:25 am
    It doesn't do that for me... Ginny asked me to look and it looks good to me in IE 5.5...

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 7, 2001 - 09:28 am
    Thanks, Pat. I'm using Netscape. Will now try to read the article with MSIE. Don't know why that didn't occur to me before! Would you suggest that I'm growing older every day, ha ha?

    Edit: I am now on MSIE and received a message when I clicked Ginny's link that the page cannot be found. I'll try to read the article on Netscape again.

    Mal

    patwest
    September 7, 2001 - 09:38 am
    It looks Ok in Netscape 4.7 ... I don't how it looks in Netscape 6.1 ... I'm afraid to try that one.

    It might have been a temporart glitch.

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 7, 2001 - 09:53 am
    Pat, I am now on Netscape 4.7, and this is the message I just received when I clicked the link to the article. "The requested URL /gallery/bookclubs/corelli/guardianview,html.txt was not found on this server." I'm not sure what's going on with this page right now.

    To change the subject and go back a bit. Dr. Iannis, a single parent, raised Pelagia as he would have raised a son, and what an advantage for her! Pelagia's father was well-educated, well-travelled and experienced as well as being a very wise man. I loved the logical, rational way in which the doctor talked to Pelagia. No yelling, no forcefulness, reason was what he used when he taught his daughter.

    Peligia was physically attracted to Mandras with good reason, it appears from the description of him, especially when he was swimming with the dolphins. Yet she was very aware of what marriage on Cephallonia required. Part of that requirement was that she be dominated by her husband, thus losing part of herself.

    Since she's a very bright, observant young woman, it seems to me that she knew this by watching and thinking about married couples. She also had her father to explain relationships, marriage, war, politics, medicine and numerous other things to her.

    Because there's been no real mention of the character and personality of Antonio Corelli in the chapters up to # 18, I can't talk about the difference between these two young men or how the doctor felt about Corelli. Incidentally, there is no mention that I can see of an impending death for Mandras in these early chapters.

    Mal

    Ginny
    September 7, 2001 - 10:00 am
    Leann, welcome, welcome!!


    We're delighted to have you, as our Lorrie has said our schedule of intense looking at the first 18 chapters occurs this week, and our proposed schedule for the remainder of the month is in the heading, along with the links and some good information on the book. I'm totally behind, both in reading and in the posts here, but have promised myself a great afternoon in the shade catching up on both.

    Meanwhile I do have something else to share, check this out, another island but not Greek: this is Isola Bella in Italy. I took this myself, and the only reason I put this here is that you can get some idea, some sense of how beautiful it must be to live on an island in the Mediterranean area.

    I'm going to put a smaller version in the heading:

    Isola Bella: an Italian Cephalonia

    ginny

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 7, 2001 - 12:04 pm
    I find this an interesting review with a somewhat different look at the book. What do you think of this Platonic love premise?
    dcdevine@yahoo.com from GLASGOW UK , 9 June, 2001

    This book seeks to investigate human nature, and mainly platonic forms of love: love for a place, a homeland, an ideal, a polictical ideal, for a daughter, for commonplace animals, for the enemy, homosexual love, love of fellow man, love for an object (a mandolin), love between fathers and daughters, adopted children, mothers and sons, love between enemies and between old men of differing beliefs in a Greek Cafe. Nothing lasts really - earthquakes and wars may come, what survives is like a tune passed on in the memory. All platonic, all unfulfilling, all unrequited - ungrabbable, fleeting and personal ... like music ... ephemeral, emotional, and then gone. For me THAT's what the novel's about - and why the author chose Corelli and the mandolin to be included in the title. This is what strings together all the facets, and if this is not realised, then this book will appear a disjointed and clumsy collection of styles and tales.

    For more of these reviews, please click the link below.


    Reviews of Corelli's Mandolin


    By the way, the composer Arcangelo Corelli has been called "The Orpheus of the Violin", as someone posted in these reviews. Wonder if that's why Bernieres named the captain "Corelli"?

    Mal

    Nellie Vrolyk
    September 7, 2001 - 02:11 pm
    I find that there is quite a bit of humour -or maybe I should say bathos? Since within the humour there is also a sense of sadness- in this book. The first chapter with its story of Stamatis and the pea in his ear and how it is finally extracted by Dr. Iannis after many years is humourous. As is Velasarios the strongman surprising Father Arsenios by suddenly lifting him up.

    At first I was not at all certain I liked this book. Each chapter seemed to be its own short story and even the ones that were supposed to tie together didn't seem to do so to me. There are many different and for the most part likable characters, but so far there is no one central character who ties everything together. (obviously I am now reading where there is the central character)

    Still I do think that there is a central character in the first 18 chapters. I just haven't been able to determine who or what it is. Is it War that is the central character? Or the island of Chepallonia? Perhaps it is Dr.Iannis? Or his daughter Pelagia?

    Just a few of my wandering thoughts

    babsNH
    September 7, 2001 - 03:52 pm
    Wow, I have just finished reading the last 84 messages, and I am overwhelmed. I found them more difficult to follow than the first 18 chapters of the book. At first I found the vocabulary a little offsetting, but I will wait until the 9th to tell you how I changed my mind. I personally think that Pelagia had underlying doubts about her union with Mandras, perhaps not conscious yet, but there are hints that she finds him just a bit immature. I look forward to reading that article posted a while back about the Cephalonnian feelings about the novel. Will return in the next section. I found the book became much more readable as I went along. I only saw the movie two weeks ago, and started the book after that, but as I was sort of incapacitated, I had lots of time to do it. Finished it last weekend. This is quite a discussion, it may take a lot longer than reading the book!

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 7, 2001 - 03:54 pm
    I'm going to stick my neck out, and it's probably too soon for me to say what I'm going to say. Regardless, I'll state that (in my estimation only), as a whole the book, Corelli's Mandolin, is not well-written. There are parts that stand out in my mind, some of which I may never forget, and there are more parts that dragged badly and made me say, "Ho hum." The first part of the book is much too slow-moving, in my opinion.

    I understand that Berniere's books about South America are somewhat surreal. I've been looking for anything that would allow me to forgive the many writing flaws I see in this work. Would surrealism cover that?

    The idea of a Greek chorus appeased my impatience a little; then the author dropped that method and went on to another, only to go back to the chorus again. This type of writing leaves the reader's mind all twis' up, as French Canadian relatives of mine who live in New England say.

    Like Homer in the Odyssey, Bernieres took on an enormous task, a cast of thousands, for example, and many, many plots, including a war. Hard to tell what the main plot is, really, since Captain Corelli really enters the book in chapter 24 and leaves it in chapter 61. This is 37 short chapters in a book that contains 73.

    The romance between Pelagia and Captain Corelli, which I'm not supposed to talk about this week, is minor, in my estimation. The problem is that the reader is led to think it will be much more than it is.

    Bernieres covers a war in which the Greeks, Albanians, the Italians, the Germans, the English and Americans are involved in a very brief period of time. He covers 58 years in 454 pages, for heaven's sake!

    In my opinion, Bernieres could have made a three volume book out of this one and would have done a better job than he did.

    Don't misunderstand, I liked this book. What Bernieres is writing about is important, but I think it's too bad this writer did not really carry out what he began.

    Today I looked at the Odyssey, which flows in a most wonderful way. I am having no trouble understanding what I read. The cast of characters is in the thousands in that, too, and the story is told in 24 books, not chapters.

    Mal

    Traude
    September 7, 2001 - 06:09 pm
    Ginny, that is a beautiful photo, and I see Lake Maggiore in the background on the right ! Did you take it when you were in Italy a short while ago ?

    The lake region near the Alps in the north of Italy, close to the Swiss border, has a special beauty. In addition to Lago Maggiore there are Lago d'Iseo; Lago di Como (near Como), and Lago di Garda, all within easy reach from Milan via he autostrade. (Lago = lake)



    Back to Corelli's Mandolin, Welcome to our new readers; it is good to have you here !

    Mal, you had asked earlier how the movie people "pulled" the story together. Well, they didn't, not really, for the film deals only with the captain's relatively brief stay on the island and the events at that time, in other words, covering just a few months' time.

    As for the Yahoo review from a Glasgow reader, which you reprinted, I am not sure I concur with the poster's opinion, lyrical as it sounds. Not all of the types of love the correspondent describes are necessarily platonic within the meaning of the term.

    MegR
    September 7, 2001 - 07:28 pm
    Hi All!

    Just caught up on posts. Haven't been on-line for a bit 'cause I wanted to finish a digusting chore. Have been doing the "Sanding's-Done Dance" of relief! Old ugly black stain that seeped into wood is all gone & am ready to apply new stain & finish to dining room woodwork tomorrow! YIPEEEEE!

    Welcome to Jeanlock, english38, Nellie V, Leann and babsNH! So glad you've joined us! A variety of personal insights and views enrich this discussion for all of us! Glad yours have and will help us!

    Pelagia - Marriage, Bedspread Unravelling & Dowry

    Traude mentioned in #117 that Pelagia's crochetting a bedspread for her hope chest and Penelope's weaving of a shroud for her father-in-law - and subsequent unravellings were done for different reasons. Traude suggested that she "doubt(s) Pelagia is conscious of WHY she is doing it." I agree with you on this one. Don't think Missy Pela is consciously aware of the reason, but think that something subconsciously is nagging at her about the suitability of this marriage for her. Jeanlock reinforced this when she discussed Pela's thoughts about marriage and what it would mean to her. Jeanlock said, "I was particularly struck by her musings about marrying Mandras...to the point where he dies and says she feels a strange sense of relief." Think Pelagia's totally caught up in the bloom & excitement of "first love" and there are too many stars in her eyes to really look at Mandras as a possible mate - instead of this gorgeous Apollonian figure who stirs her emotionally & physically. She IS a young & inexperienced girl! At this point in the story, she's choosing romance instead of reality, even though subconsciously she may have doubts or questions. We see the latter starting to somewhat surface thru her letters when Mandras fails to reply. Also agree with Traude's point that Pelagia seems more concerned about the dowry than Mandras. He seems to just be happy to be marrying the "cute chick" in town. (laughing) Think this dowry business is a social thing w/ Pela; she wants to fit in, to be like everyone else.

    The Odyssey Business

    Have to admit that I've always been enamored with good old "wily Odysseus" in both the Iliad and The Odyssey. He's fascinated me since high school. His nimble-minded ability to come up with a solution to tricky problems has usually benefitted others more than himself!

    <per>•He was the one who provided a solution to "how to pick a husband for Helen"; granted, he won Penelope as his wife as a result of this, BUT - his solution to make all suitors for Helen's hand promise to defend her marriage to Menelaus got him into a real pickle later!

    •He was the first one in literature (I think) to come up with the "insanity plea" to try to avoid going to war in Troy when Agamemnon, Menelaus' meglomaniac brother, demanded Odysseus's participation & armies to recover that hussy Helen when she ran off with her boytoy, Paris to Troy

    •He was the one who indirectly got the pouting Achilles & his Mirmidons to return to battle when the Trojans breached the Greek camp

    •He was the one who came up with the idea for the Trojan horse which ultimately lead to the destruction of Priam & Hector's city

    And what does the guy get in return? Short time with his wife, 10 years on shores of Troy in battle and 10 more years of roaming the Mediterranean enduring multiple harships! Then he gets home and finds his home invaded by guys who want his wife, his wealth & his power!

    Ginny asked earlier if Mandras could be considered a modern day Odysseus. Right now, I really don't think so at all! Mandras seems to lack the basic intelligence and wiliness that Odysseus possessed. Our fisherman seems to be a very simple kind of guy who seems to communicate better with dolphins than he does with people! Traude said earlier that "as for Mandras, I have no idea whether the author intended him to be a modern day Odysseus. We might read the whole story and then decide." Traude also noted that "the homeric allusions are unmistakeable, but we ought to be prepared for perceptual shifts; deB applies his own twists to the legendary Greek figures." This IS true! Look at the differences in the Pelagia & Penelope yarnwork!

    Have been wondering WHY deB has chosen to include so many references to Homer's tales. Think he's drawing a parallel here with two periods in Greek history when the nation worked as a unit. It seems that most of this country's history has been that of enduring conquest by multiple outsiders. During the Trojan war and the Italian "invasion" during WWII, the Greeks did unite and act as a single force to defeat their enemy of the time.

    Assorted Responses

    Traude, thanks for the anecdote on Curzio Malaparte! I thought he was a fictional character & didn't know that he really existed! The knowledge that you share with us is such a gift! Three gold stars for your forehead!!!

    Ginny, I really enjoyed your conversations with George and the info he provided! Hope he'll have more to share!

    Lorrie, Had no idea of what a pine martin was & was too lazy to look it up! (laughing) Just thought it was some cute little furry critter & I really liked her name - Psipsina. A WEASEL!! Yuck! Now I have to change my mental image of this animal. (chuckling)

    Nellie V You talked about the lack of a central character so far and asked it it was the island, Dr. I, or Pelagia. Know what's weird? Because of the multiple first person chapters of Carlo, I was beginning to suspect that it might be he - but like you, I'm not sure.

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 7, 2001 - 08:54 pm
    MegR, thanks for the Odyssey info. I read it and the Iliad in high school, too, and a few times later, but I haven't looked into the Odyssey for a long time until today. It looks different to eyes that have been around as long as mine have. Like a couple of months over 73 years, oh, lawdy!

    My high school stopped teaching Classical Greek the year before I entered, a big disappointment to me. I was only able to study Latin, French and Italian in high school and had to be satisfied with translations of Homer, unfortunately. I do love words and languages. I get on French, Italian, Spanish, Swedish, Russian and German sites all the time, and ran into a few Greek ones recently (which were Greek to me), but I have not found any in Latin.

    I agree that Mandras does not seem to be a latter day Odysseus.

    There is much reference later in the book to the various invasions and occupations of Greece over the centuries. Having Dr. Iannis write a history of Greece was one of the better techniques Bernieres used.

    Would it be safe to say that there is no central character in this book besides Cephallonia and Greece?

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 7, 2001 - 09:20 pm
    Fishing boats, Cephallonia today

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 7, 2001 - 09:25 pm
    Note the Captain Corelli sign.

    Cephallonia today

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 7, 2001 - 09:28 pm
    Assos

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 7, 2001 - 09:29 pm
    Goats at Cephallonia

    Lorrie
    September 8, 2001 - 07:18 am
    NELLIE:

    Hi, there, Nellie! Yes, I see what you mean by all those little vignettes, each entire unto itself, and wonder just where all this is leading. I believe it's a planned method of building us all up to the main story, which actually comes later. Like you, I thought at first the main characterization was Mandros, but now I'm not so sure.

    babsNH:

    If we should happen to take a little longer in this discussion, so be it! We refuse to be hurried along, so all of you who are still on the first chapters, never fear!

    MrgR:

    Thank you, thank you for that funny rendition of Odysseus'accomplishments. I'm still laughing: that "hussy" Helen, the "toyboy", yet. That note of humor was needed at this point.

    MAL:

    Of course you may state your own opinion of the book! One of the things we pride ourselves on here in the Books is that dissenting views of what we are discussing are always welcome, provided the posters do not get personal in their statements, and present them in a courteous manner.

    I think I see what you mean about the poor writing of this author. Actually, I don't even think he was that well received in this country---I know he was a huge success in Europe, but that's understandable. We Americans tend to prefer reading about wars in which we actually participated, as one of the reviewers wrote.

    I came across a "dissenting" critique of the book, which I will post later, because it dwells a lot on the events in future chapters, which right now we are trying to avoid.

    But, by all means, express your opinion. Whether anyone agrees with you is not the point.

    Lorrie

    jeanlock
    September 8, 2001 - 09:15 am
    Personally, I like the way it is written. Granted, it is not a simple straightforward tale such as a lot of the reading we do. I like the different 'voices' and the perspectives of the various characters.

    Then too, I doubt many of us has ever concerned ourselves with the point of view of the Italian army. Seeing that campaign from the standpoint of an Italian soldier who has been betrayed by his superiors over and over again provides another viewpoint from which to look at this aspect of WWII.

    Altho I haven't seen the movie, but just read many of the reviews from Britain and the US, I suspect the movie only concerned itself with a love affair between Pelagia and Corelli, and didn't bother overmuch with the surrounding stuff. I will probably rent the tape when it comes out, just to satisfy my curiosity which, as usual, is limitless.

    About a year or so ago I got the Odyssey on tape from the library and listened to it. I found it fascinating, and even went out and bought the book of the translation used. Then, always curious, I bought another translation and began to listen to the tape of that one, too. Unfortunately, I'm not in my car enough to tackle that. I do enjoy the references to the tale, but am reserving my thoughts on whether or not this book is supposed to be any parallel to the big O.

    RacerRuss
    September 8, 2001 - 10:35 am
    It is interesting to me that you are doing Coreli's Mandolin. Four years ago, no movie then, I recommeded it but was cut down. One person had read it half through and discarded it. The first half needs the last half. Aside from analyzing how or why it was written I thought the characters said something important about the human condition and about us as living, involved,human beings.

    A few of you knew me as RUSS, a lurker now.

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 8, 2001 - 11:06 am
    Welcome, Russ.

    You are right. The characters did say something very important about the human condition and much more.

    As I told a friend on the phone last night, I've decided I don't read the way many other people do. I am a writer and editor, and have been for a long, long time. Analyzing the way a work is written is as natural to me as analyzing a work of music. I'm a classically trained musician first, who, unfortunately, lost a good deal of the magic of music for many years because of the analysis and theorizing I was made to do. At this point in my life, I don't believe I'll stop writing, editing my own stuff and the works of others, and analyzing what I write and read, until they carry me out feet first, though. Just call me the maverick in this group.

    I was thinking the other day how hard a writer works to come up with exactly the right word in a sentence and how quickly people read, often missing that particular "right word" in their hurried search for content, the word for which the author spent so much time searching. Bernieres is a marvelous writer insofar as that is concerned.

    Even his "scatalogical" references belong where they do. I'm not very familiar with Rabelais, but Bernieres's wit surely falls into the category of what I think Rabelaisian is. Since many of the curses and off-color language are not in English, it's all too easy to glide over some most ironic and amusing stuff. People do talk that way, you know - even your next door neighbor.

    To me the language in this book is absolutely appropriate as are the descriptions of the island, which have left me with a longing to go to Greece and especially Cephallonia. Since that's impossible, maybe one of my relatives will loan me a few bucks so I can rent the movie and a VCR on which to watch it. My second-hand VCR flopped over and died, and I truly am missing it.

    P.S.. I can't wait until we get into the music Captain Corelli plays.

    Mal

    Ginny
    September 8, 2001 - 11:46 am
    Hello, Russ, and welcome!

    You bring our happy band of musicians here to 18!! And because of our large number of interested participants, I'm more than ever grateful that all of you are chatting with the others over the various points you raise, and that Lorrie is our Co Leader as there's no way on earth we could keep up with you!

    And that's the way it should be, in my opinion.




    Just touching on a few items you have all raised, but I wonder now if we can get some other issues or questions in the heading? Are there any topics in addition to the Themes page you think we should be watching?? Or questions on the book you might have?




    As Malryn said she is a writer, so we all are totally different in background, experiences and outlook. One of the very best outcomes in our book discussions of a book is the insights into human behavior and real learning that goes on and we hope to hear from every voice and perspective.




    OK, going way back, here are a few things that stuck out at me?

  • Malryn, you mentioned that you thought the "Greek Chorus effect" stopped with Chapter 12 and resumed later? What would you call Chapter 12 ff?

  • I have really enjoyed ALL of the thoughts on the ending of Chapter 14, liked Nellie's a lot, you are all very creative I would never have thought of half of them, please keep them in mind for the conclusion, we may be seeing a pattern here as some have suggested.

  • Traude said that De Bernieres "applies his own twists to the legendary Greek figures." I believe she is right and I believe it says something and I'd like for us to watch what it says.

    The Greeks as I think Jeanlock pointed out are very historically minded and are always comparing themselves to their ancient heroes, so what does De Bernieres portrayal mean? We will get more on this later on.

  • Traude said "As I see it, every chapter is a story in itself, and such is the skill of deB that he carries the plot forward, events mesh and are paralleled, reflected in the eyes of different characters and protagonists, which produces a multi-faceted picture of increasing sharpness."

    I like that.

  • Meg asks: Why did de Bernieres start with this (the doctor healing Stamatis) event?....could Stamatis be like many of his other islanders who seem to prefer that simpler, more innocent lifea nd doesn't want to acknowledge harsher realities?

    Good point, as she points out so far a lot of the characters don't prefer to look hard at what's going on.

  • Meg asks Is St. Gerasimos so popular (or needed) in Caphallonia that he has TWO feast days?

    Good question.

  • I'm wondering, what with all the mention of signs and wonders, if anybody knows or remembers similar happenings in the Odyssey? How about any reference to dolphin like gods?

    More...jump in anywhere??
  • jeanlock
    September 8, 2001 - 11:48 am
    Would it be cheating to comment on the Author's note at the end of the book? I always read such addenda first because I think it will help me understand the book.

    Ginny
    September 8, 2001 - 11:55 am
    Russ, what makes you think nobody wanted to read the book? In fact, I myself would never have read the book had we not decided to discuss it.

    What made any of us read it? What was the attraction?

    I had never heard of De Bernieres?




    Yes, Traude, I did take that shot while on my trip in June, we stayed in ValleMaggia for a week.

    Thank you, Mal for those neat photo links, we can put them in the heading as we go on! Thank you also for the link to the poetry of Constantine Cavafy.




    Malryn, there are several great Latin sites on the web, one of them a project of Artemis, one of our former participants here in the Books and a newly retired Latin teacher, let me go see if I can find her site and that of her student, it was fabulous, really one of the best.




  • English38 said "Above all I feel that it is a portrayal of the helplessness of man in the hands of fate...or men as the playthings of the dogs...a truly Greek theme."

    I like that too and she's so right and let's be watching the narrative as we read for this theme, too?

  • Lorrie, I will ask George about the dowry thing, does anybody have any questions for him, I will see him Thursday?




    Tomorrow we will begin looking at the issues in Chapters 19-37, are there any other issues you would like to address today in addition to those being added to the heading as we speak?

    Here's one for you and it's a trick question, actually, but does Dr. Iannis seem true, to you? Does he seem typical of those on Cephalonia? Is there any indication of why he has chosen medicine as a field? Is he believable?

    How does he compare to the other men of the island? Let's confine our thoughts, please to the facts in the first 18 Chapters.

    ginny
  • Ginny
    September 8, 2001 - 12:22 pm
    Jeanlock, since the author's note is entirely separate from the book I myself don't see how it could hurt, go ahead and comment on it?

    It might help with all the convoluted war scenes.




    The new heading questions and quotes are up, does the heading load particularly slowly or normally for you?

    ginny

    babsNH
    September 8, 2001 - 12:26 pm
    Malryn

    Thank you so much for those glorious pictures. The best part of the movie was the scenery, and I kept wishing for more. This is is part of the world that I have always dreamed of visiting, but that alas is not going to happen in this life. I grew up near the southern cities of NH which many Greek immigrants came to and worked in the fabric mills. In my very small town we had five very complete families who were first generation Gre

    ek-Americans that I went to school and became very friendly with. We just had our 50 HS Reunion and I was talking with my friend Helen, kidding her about winning the lottery and taking a trip to her Islands. We have been out of touch for a few years, so to my surprise, she told me that she had visited them. Now that I am reading this book, I must get together with her and ask her many questions. How I wish I had appreciated more the culture I was immersed in when I visited their homes as a child. They, however, were only too anxious to discard their customs and get on with being American kids!

    Lorrie, I am sorry if I sounded critical in my previous post, I was only trying to interject levity, but it came off bad. To the contrary, I enjoy every minute of reading your thoughts, and it helps me to look deeper than I might have otherwise.

    Russ, I agree that the two halves of the book must be judged as a whole. I did not see this until I was well into the second half.

    This process of analyzing a book by sections is new to me, (did one other so far) and I must learn to contain myself.

    ALF
    September 8, 2001 - 12:32 pm
    Babs: You needn't try to contain yourself. You just enjoy yourself as much as we do.

    Ginny
    September 8, 2001 - 12:32 pm
    BabsNH!

    I thought I saw a post from you yesterday??!!?? and added your name to our roster of our merry band but when I went back today I could not find it!

    Yes, please do ask your friend Helen who has visited the islands what they are like, we can all get up a list of questions for Helen, too, because George is from Sparta, I do not know if he has visited Cephalonia but I can certainly ask.

    What fun!

    Welcome from me, too!

    ginny

    Nellie Vrolyk
    September 8, 2001 - 01:59 pm
    Dr. Iannis: why did he choose being a doctor as a vocation when his true love is history? Perhaps the island needed a doctor and he was to only person who was smart enough to go to medical school. But I get this sense that he is an outsider; that he was not born on Cephallonia. Another question one might ask is: why did he choose Cephallonia to establish his medical practice?

    This is my own feeling/thinking only but I find that the author tends to ridicule his characters or make them look ridiculous.

    Ginny
    September 8, 2001 - 02:22 pm
    Oh interesting point, Nellie? What's an example of that ridicule? What leads you to think he was not born on Cephalonia?

    I'm going to put that as a question in the heading, as well, thank you, good points, all!

    ginny

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 8, 2001 - 02:24 pm
    I don't personally think Bernieres's intent was to ridicule his characters. If one stands apart from oneself, is objective and looks at the people and the environment in which one lives, it seems entirely possible that all of us are in a way ridiculous to a circumspect, objective viewer. Shakespeare was a master at this, as were other writers and thinkers before him.

    Bernieres's ability to do this in retrospect is notable, though I would think he has difficulty being objective about the present day. Things need to jell. This is not untypical of writers. It takes time to digest what you've studied, known and seen and relate it to the past.

    Much depends, however, on the rather hidden character and thinking of the particular writer, in this case, Louis de Bernieres aka Louis Smart. Is he truly wise about human beings? Is he a satirist? In a way, I think in both cases he is.

    However, from what I read, with exposure to only one of his books, I see an understanding of universal human nature on his part that should be commended. There seems to be a kind of formula of comprehension and understanding here which is based on history that is found in literature throughout the ages..

    Some writers are able to find a commonality in the behavior and reactions of human beings throughout history, regardless where the people they examine live or when the events occur. The most astute writers know how to express it in their books.

    Boiled down to seven words: There is nothing new under the sun.

    Mal

    RacerRuss
    September 8, 2001 - 02:36 pm
    It is of interest to me that you are doing Corelli's Mandolin. Four years ago I suggested this book but was cut down. One person had read the first half and discarded it as a waste of time. The first half needs the last half. I saw it not in terms of how or why it was written but felt the story itself had something to say concerning our human condition and touched on our own lives. I'm glad you are discussing it.

    RUSS

    MegR
    September 8, 2001 - 02:37 pm
    Know this is stupid, but - I'm a happy camper! I just finished applying stain to diningroom woodwork, plate rails, two china closets & fireplace mantle! Progress after months of stripping & sanding insidious black stain that soaked into the wood! Have china closet doors & little strips that hold glass in & stained glass window frame to do yet. Kicked over can of stain & decided that it was time to quit for the day! (laughing!) I know I'm an idiot for even starting this!!

    Jeanlock, I totally agree with you, as probably EVERYONE knows (laughing) I love this book so far. I too like the way it is written and the fact that it's "not a simple, straightforward tale." Its "different voices & perspectives" are also intriguing. For some reason this guy reminds me so much of S. American writers & strangely enough, Faulkner too. It's kind of exciting that we don't know where deB is going - that anticipation is kind of fun! Can't wait for "Part II." I still have 50 pages to read for tomorrow!!

    Racer Russ Welcome! You get a gold star for recommending this book, even though it was a while ago! As you can tell, I've very enthusiastic about it! Am looking forward to your upcoming input!

    Nellie V & Lorrie, In re to your last question above about Dr. Iannis: I agree with Nellie that Doc I seems to be an outsider - even though he gets along well with everyone and is obviously respected by his fellow islanders. BUT, I want to hold off on discussing him until after tomorrow cause we get more of his background in the upcoming chapters & that info will help with this discussion of him.

    Nellie, in that same post, you said that you felt that the "author tends to ridicule his characters or make them look ridiculous." Know what? That doesn't bother me; this characterization seems to make them seem more human to me. We all have our own quirks, strengths, character flaws, and it seems to me that deB is enveloping his folk with the same things. We laugh at them when they're being simple-minded (like Fr. A's air ride courtesy of Megalo, like Pelagia's panting and shivers when she sees Mandras in the buff w/ the dolphins, like when Doc I does his pea extraction). But - that "joshing" makes us appreciate these folks more when they have to face something serious, struggle and do something inspiring. Look how Patir Arsenios redeemed himself (in Pela's letters) as the spiritual guide & advisor to the villagers when war broke out. We see Pela beginning to be more reflective about her relationship with Mandras when he doesn't write. We see Doc's humanity, humor & kindness when he advises Stamatis on how to treat his wife more kindly when the old man asks for the pea to be reinstalled. DeB does poke fun at his people, but I suspect that he also loves & respects them too! Does this make ANY sense? What do you think?

    Lorrie
    September 8, 2001 - 02:57 pm
    RACER RUSS:

    Hi, and Welcome! You are so right about the two halves of the book. I'm curious, however, can you tell us why your proposal was shot down when you suggested this book four years ago?

    MAL: For some reason, I keep thinking that deBernieres wrote his real name, "louis Smart," with tongue in cheek. What do you think?

    babsNH:

    No, no, as to your post #173, I enjoyed your references to Greek mythology very much, in fact I thought that bit of drollery was brought in at a perfect time. Please reread my #165. I am so pleased with the way you people, all of you, are responding! If you do get in touch with your friend Helen (how appropriate!) please ask her if the island customs we read about are the same as what she saw when she visited there.

    GINNY:

    Howdy, Partner, and thank you for posting those great questions! Also, that picture of the Italan island is gorgeous!

    Lorrie

    Lorrie
    September 8, 2001 - 03:09 pm
    I hope you're not all jaded from reading about this controversial author, but I do want to show you another side of him that was seen in England.

    DeBERNIERES THE COMIC

    Lorrie

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 8, 2001 - 03:19 pm
    Lorrie:

    I think Louis de Bernieres is still Louis Smart, a very, very, very smart human being and writer if he'd get over writing for money to pay for the back debts he owes for all those cigarettes he chain-smoked, the Georgian house he just bought, etc., and just take off. I also think if he continues to write and gets over his surrealist attitudes and "magic" poses, he'll be one of the best writers in the 21st century. Hey, that's saying a lot!

    When a writer finally discovers that the only thing new in the world, really, is technology, he has the capability of taking off like that greyhound after the rabbit in the race. Trouble is that some writers become very disillusioned when they realize this fact of life and quit writing. I hope Louis de B. (Smart) doesn't. I don't quite trust the guy and his need to make money.

    It sounds as if I'm giving a writing lesson here, which, of course I am, but so many years of trying to figure out how to write and facing the boredom that comes with centuries of repetition in literature do tend to make one jaded. The wonderful part about writing is imagination, of which this author has plenty, if he'd buckle down and use it.

    He sure has talent. I don't know if he ever was in Cephallonia and knew goats, St. Gerasimos's antics and satyrs, but he certainly made me feel as if I was there. Maybe sometime he won't limit himself with the restriction of so many "facts" and find freedom in "fancy".

    In retrospect, this book becomes more appealing. I'm going to start re-reading it tonight.

    Mal

    jeanlock
    September 8, 2001 - 04:49 pm
    Ginny--

    Remember, early on, we learned that Dr. Iannis did not have formal medical education but just picked it up when he was working at a hospital. And Pelagia has picked it up from him in the same way. Of course he did purchase some books, but he does not seem to be an 'educated' man as we usually think of it. He's just very intelligent and introspective--making the most of what he has access to, and human, and humane.

    About the author note: It doesn't appear that the author had a very deep knowledge of CXephallonia. He says, "As far as Cephallonia is concerned I have had to make the most of what little information there is, and the island badly needs a Dr. Iannis or a Pelagia to give it a proper history. Much of what I have written consists of hearsay tempered with myth and hazy memory, which, of course, is what history is,."

    That does not sound to me as though he could have been writing with underlying meanings about the place.

    Lorrie
    September 8, 2001 - 05:04 pm
    JEANLOCK:

    Yes, it does, doesn't it? Now I missed that part about the good doctor. It explains a lot.

    All right, you lovely people, as per our schedule, for the next week I will be turning over the reins to our capable co-host, GINNY, whose love of books is so contagious! I would like to add here that i have a strong suspicion that our Ginny has some very definite opinions on the heroine of the book, Pelagia, which I am anxious to hear. I can almost hear her snorting at the starting gate here! Ginny, I mean, not Pelagia. Hahahha

    Lorrie

    Ginny
    September 9, 2001 - 06:48 am
    Good morning and welcome to the second section of our look at Correlli's Mandolin.

    This second section seems to continue the conceit of a mini Odyssey, but combines Greek heroic tales shamelessly, in, for instance, Mandras's adventures with Circe (Odysseus) his return in disguise only known by the faithful ? family weasel, Psipsina, but his apparent encounter with Cerberus (page 143: "On my left was a cliff that jutted outwards....and it seemed to me that there was a creature on it with three heads that intended to devour me..." confuses the legend with Herakles.

    At this point the reader has to stop, is forced to stop and ask what's going on?

    This mismash of Greek mythology is not an accident, not a whimsy or is it? Is it a whimsy? If so do you appreciate the joke?

    Adding to the confusion is the abrupt chapter title changes, such as in Chapter 24: A Most Ungracious Surrender. Once again we've changed speakers, this time it's Carlo again, but not as "L'Omossessuale" as he appeared a few chapters earlier (Chapter 19). Is this signifigant and what does it mean?

    I am too lazy to look back and examine all the Carlo narrated chapters, but this one took me aback as I did not know who was speaking for a moment or why his normal intro was changed.

    Perhaps we're to feel we've entered into the malestrom of war? Perhaps the author here is careless?

    What do you think? What points on what you read would you like to bring out here?

    ginny

    Ginny
    September 9, 2001 - 07:28 am
    Russ, your post has displayed two times, you may want to hit Outline above and find your first one and the responses to it? All of you may like to know that this software will repeat posts if you use the back button to edit?

    If a lot of people post at once you may not see all those posts, either, just a head's up to everybody if it seems your posts are not being answered?

    Hopefully they are.




    Jeanlock, you're making the point that since the author was not overly familiar with the history of Cephalonia then he is not slanting his characters or events one way or the other?

    I'm going to say what IF this was a fictional island instead of one with a history? If we read this book of fiction would we be justified in saying that an author may have portrayed people in such or such a way?

    To me, and one of the reasons I really like Penelope Fitzgerald, was that every word chosen is there for a reason? And so I watch what the author says, the opinion I get is my own but there's usually a reason?

    One of our jobs here is to pay attention to how the author is presenting material. The author here may not have underlying messages about the island of Cephalonia but the Greeks in general or the Germans in general or the Italians in general. Not sure I'm making any point at all but I do think the author thru this story which he made up is saying something, I'm just not sure what?

    And thank you for that close reading of Dr. Iannis's medical training I missed that on the first go round and was shocked? Later on I was shocked and I would not have been had I read as closely as you did!

    Great point!!




    Malyrn, a delight here for you from a couple of the about 5,850,000 Latin sites on the Internet, I could not find Artemis's site nor the one the high schooler did that was so fabulous, but there are plenty more:

  • The Granddaddy of them all, the Perseus Project of Tufts University

  • Resources for Classics Teachers

  • More links for Latin enthusiasts, including a defunct Teach Yourself Latin

  • a Directory of Latin Language sites

  • Latin Language and Literature

  • Latin Grammar Resources With a Sense of Humor

  • Wonderful page on the Arch of Titus

  • Wonderful page on the Forum in Rome

    Enjoy!

    ginny
  • Malryn (Mal)
    September 9, 2001 - 07:48 am
    It is said that Gabriel Garcia Marquez is a hero of Louis de Bernieres. It is also said that Marquez wrote about the thin line between reality and magic. In my opinion and that of some others, this is what Bernieres tries to do in Corelli's Mandolin. We see Mandras trying to return to Cephallonia after fighting in the war. That's reality. He meets the old crone who reminds the reader of Circe. That's magic. One sees this kind of thing throughout this book. In a way Bernieres's book reminds me of a book by John Fowles, The Magus, in which reality and magic were intertwined.

    I had no trouble identifying Carlo as the narrator in chapter 24, since early into the chapter he says, "I was still numb about the death of Francisco" and goes on to say, "....my love for Francisco had inspired me to great things, but I had forgotten the possibility that he would be killed. I had gone into the war a romantic, and had come out of it desolate, dismal and forlorn." I think the Carlo chapter here is not titled "L'ommossesuale" because in previous chapters Carlo was more or less talking to himself and open about his homosexuality. In chapter 24 and from then on, Carlo's homosexuality is kept hidden by him.

    I have read that Marquez stressed the interconnection among his characters and the interconnection among all people and that Bernieres tries to show the same thing. Do you think this is true?

    Dr. Iannis was a healer first and had reinforced this natural tendency by reading much about medicine and medical techniques. His role as historian came later and perhaps came about because of the healing work he did and the thoughts he had about the commonality of human beings, their ills, complaints and behavior throughout history.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 9, 2001 - 07:51 am
    Ginny, thanks for all the wonderful Latin links! What a treat!

    Edit: Ginny, what you said about Penelope Fitzgerald's choice of words which stimulated your opinion is exactly right
    Good writers choose their words carefully to lead to certain thoughts on the part of the reader and to develop a plot
    or plots which further lead to thoughts and opinions on the part of those who read the books. When a work is read
    hastily with attention focused only on content and without attention to the words in the sentences, a great deal of what
    the author intends to convey is lost.

    Mal

    Lorrie
    September 9, 2001 - 08:28 am
    Good Morning, Everyone!

    I just heard from Ginny that she has been having trouble getting on to SeniorNet, but assures me that this is only temporary, and will be with us as soon as she can.

    She asks if we think the author is girding up for descriptions of the desolation of war in these next chapters, and I believe that's true. God knows Carlos' description of Francisco's death (Chapter 19) was horrifying enough, and then there's the overall sadness and foreboding of all the villagers in Chapter 23 as they prepare for the invasion.

    Lorrie

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 9, 2001 - 11:25 am
    "Setting up a community and seeing what happens to it when the megalomaniacs get busy: that's my main preoccupation."

    When the declining Morning Star (a communist newspaper) panned Corelli's Mandolin for it portrayal of Greek communities, the authhor responded vigorously on the letter page: "How long are you people going to sit in the dark in an air-pocket, working each other off?"

    jeanlock
    September 9, 2001 - 12:54 pm
    Malryn--

    Are you quite sure the word was "working off". I read that review, too, and that's not what I thought I had read.

    The Magus--a perfect example of the kind of book I think this is. I'll never forget the first time I saw the movie. I just could not figure out what was going on. Bought the book, but that didn't clarify much for me then. And Fowles issued at least one later version of the book which differed from the first. Now I'll just have to get that again.Drat!

    I suppose I should add here that my combined Slovak English/Scottish heritage has not provided me with an instinctive understanding of subtlety. I'm just too literal. I've tried and tried, but I can't get past the fact that what I read is what I get. It's always helpful to have someone around like my best friend for many years who had a large helping of Irish whimsey.

    Hairy
    September 9, 2001 - 01:01 pm
    Thanks for the gorgeous pictures!!

    Mal, I am looking forward to your take on the music. I just wish I could HEAR it - especially one song in particular. Wish we could have some music automatically begin playing when we come here! Oooooh, is there a CD of the sound track from the movie?

    Linda

    jeanlock
    September 9, 2001 - 01:08 pm
    After reading the description of the mandolin, I'm wondering if there might be an artist/musician among us who could do a drawing of the mandolin as described in the book. It must have been beautiful.

    Also, while I think of it.

    What about the difference in Mandras's and Correlli's reactions to Pelagia's waistcoat which Mandras thought was poorly done because it the two parts of the front didn't match and which Corelli thought was beautiful and artistic BECAUSE the two sides didn't match?

    Lorrie
    September 9, 2001 - 01:48 pm
    MAL:

    Apparently there was quite a storm over in Greece when the book came out. Some say deBernieres depicted what actually happened in a terribly prejudiced way, and I understand some of the former guerrilas were very angry.

    LINDA:

    Somewhere in all the reading I was doing about Cephallonia, it seems to me there was some sound effects to the movie, I'll go look, but probably someone will beat me to it. Hah!

    JEANLOCK:

    I like reading your posts because you say exactly how I feel about interpreting passages in this book. I've always felt remiss that i couldn' find deeper meanings in some of our novels. Like you,"What I see is what I get!" Yet I don't really feel that I miss all that much of the meanings, do you?

    I wondered when someone was going to mention about that waistcoat!

    Lorrie

    Lorrie
    September 9, 2001 - 02:01 pm
    JEANLOCK:

    Amazon has a CD for sale with the musical score of the Corelli movie, but on their page they offer a way to sample all the songs from the movie and the book. Here's the link, scroll down to where you see all the titles of the songs with a little note alongside. Hope you have speakers on your puter. Enjoy!

    Soundtrack Samples

    Nellie Vrolyk
    September 9, 2001 - 02:02 pm
    Lorrie, thanks for the link to the piece on DeBernieres the Comic because it has made some thoughts or feelings I have about Corelli's Mandolin become more clear -still somewhat muddled, but much clearer. This book reads to me like the 'spiel' or 'monologue' of a standup comic. DeBernieres writes in such a way that things make me laugh even though in reality they are sad things. But I think that is the way of comedy: you laugh and then realize that the story the comic has just told is not laughable at all.

    Ginny, an example of the ridicule. To me the whole of chapter 2 makes the Duce -Mussolini-look ridiculous. I wonder how such a ridiculous person could have inspired fear in others and have had so many follow him and fight for him in a war? I think that this ridicule is of the kind that is done by all comics when presenting pieces on those who rule or are in power -I'm not sure I'm putting this right or making sense here.

    Second example is that of Father Arsenios peeing in an empty wine bottle. That scene made me laugh and at the same time I was thinking how ridiculous it made this man of God look, and then I thought how sad it was that Arsenios had to resort to such an act because he was too greedy for the gifts being left to come out of hiding from behind the altar screen.

    MegR, yes the characters in this story are all very human. Perhaps it is in the nature of human beings to do ridiculous things? And in the nature of the comic to point out those ridiculous things to us?

    Now away from all this ridicule and on to new things and thoughts. I like the way that the lies that Carlo is telling to Francesco's mother, so that she will not be hurt, are contrasted with the truth of what really happened. First lie: he died on a fine day. Truth: it was a rainy day when all kinds of horrors were revealed from under the snow. Second lie: expelled the enemy. Truth: enemy expelled them. And so on.

    Now must be away, but shall return.

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 9, 2001 - 02:53 pm
    Jean:

    Yes, the word is not "working". I had it in my head, but had copied it down and read my very, very bad handwriting wrong. Best I said "working", I think.

    Lorrie:

    Many Greeks were very upset with the book and the movie, especially the communists. I read that Berniere's editor suggested, and he agreed, to change the writing of parts of the book for the Greeks. Whole sections were cut out, so I read.

    Nellie:

    The caricature of Mussolini in the monologue in chapter 35 is very funny, indeed. I consider it a brilliant piece of writing because so much of it is true. As you know, that's what satiric farce is, an exaggeration of the truth. Bernieres has exaggerated the truth in several instances in this book, as well as exaggerating some of the characters. I still do not call it ridicule. As you probably read, it comes out later in the book that two of the characters wrote that piece of propaganda. Who? Can't remember right now. Remember, Bernieres has a Brtitish point of view about the war, especially so, since his father fought against the Italians. I'll have to find the site where I read about that.

    I am going to search out the music Captain Corelli played in this book on a midi site I know. When I find something interesting, I'll put the midi file on a web page and post the link here. Frankly, I don't much trust the choice of music by the film-makers that I've heard on clips of the movie and read about.

    Mal

    babsNH
    September 9, 2001 - 02:59 pm
    Malryn,

    I thought that I had read something about the Greek partisans(communists?) were angry with the book, perhaps that accounts for the difference in ending of the book vs. the movie. I won't give that away! Maybe Hollywood was trying to be politically correct, or was forced to in order to make the movie?

    Jeanlock,

    I already disliked Mandras a bit, but when he made the comment about the waistcoat, that killed any sympathy I had for him. I had already heard this in the movie but was hoping when I started the book to find something I liked about him. Didn't happen! Perhaps that is because it is just like something my perfectionist husband would have said! Don't laugh!

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 9, 2001 - 03:26 pm
    Bernieres wrote another chapter four years after the book was written. Is it in the edition you have?

    Corelli's Mandolin chapter

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 9, 2001 - 03:34 pm
    The link below takes you to a very fine site about Cephallonian culture.

    Kefalonian Culture

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 9, 2001 - 03:52 pm
    Below is a link to an article about Greek reaction to Corelli's Mandolin and description of Amos Pamploni, whose true story is remarkably like that of Captain Corelli.
    Pamploni

    MegR
    September 9, 2001 - 05:29 pm
    Updated Character List

    Ginny, I have additions to character list for this second part. Still have last 15 pages to read tonight & will post the list to you tomorrow - or late tonight.

    Dr.Iannis & Q's on Him Above

    Lorrie, Nellie & Jeanlock - Jean, you're absolutely right about Dr. I's title being an honorific. Can someone help me here cause I can't find reference to this in book - thought it was in Chpts 19 to 36. I seem to remember that he picked up his medical knowledge by memorizing the two volumes of The Complete and Concise Home Doctor. I seem to remember, but can't find passage to quote that he picked up some of his med experience while sailing (as a crew member)around the globe & serving as an on-board medic. His experiential background is much more sophisticated and broader than that of the other islanders. There's something else, but I can't remember it or find it. Remember when I read that part that I chuckled because this local g.p. and vet had no real qualifications to practice, but was the best that the villagers had. Maybe his travels & other experiences have also broadened his knowledge base, tolerance, acceptance of others and his empathy for them - and make him different from them?

    Odyssey References Okay, here I go again! (Laughing!)

    Ginny, you asked earlier about meaning of the dolphins that Mandras swims with. Little irony here with this one and the ones that come below (as Traude warned us earlier!)!!!

    Pelagia's name means "the sea." Acc. to my Zimmerman's Dictionary of Classical Mythology, the dolphin is the symbol of Poseidon, god of the sea, and is sacred to him. So here we have good ole, Mandras swimming and communicating in his own way with these fishes & he can't with the gal he loves who was named after the sea!!!!

    <per>•When Mandras comes home, Pela notices that he smells like Philoctetes Philoctetes was a cohort of Hercules & had been given the hero's bow & arrow. He was also one of the suitors for good old Helen. Like the others, he had to go to Troy to "rescue" her. Enroute, his foot was injured & smelled to high heaven, so his buds left him behind on the island of Lemos. Near the end of the war, Odysseus had Philo retrieved cause he was THE best Greek archer & they needed his skill. Philo is the one who shot that callow youth, Paris, Missy Helen's boy toy! So far the only things that Mandras seems to have in commmon w/ Philoctetes is that he smells to high heaven & he's as immature & pretty as Paris!??!

    •During his long trek home from fighting the Italians, we learn the following about Mandras' journey:

    •He was the only survivor of his unit, as was Odysseus. All of O's men died during the 10 year journey back to Ithaca.

    •Among the many dangers that Mandras encounter were:

    •The stone throwers. (O met the Laestrygonian giants who sank some of his ships by hurling boulders at them)

    •He dreams of "monsters with maws filled with teeth" and a whirlpool. (O had to sail between the twin perils of Scylla [6-headed monster that snatched & ate his men] & Charybdis [the whirlpool that sucked down ships]

    •Both men encountered a Circe, but they're so different! Mandras' Circe was an ugly old crone who kept pigs & wanted Mandras to stay with her after their "encounter". O's Circe was a beautiful enchantress who turned men into pigs and kept him prisoner for a year as she tried & failed to seduce him! (Maybe O's gal was responsible for starting the evolution of male chauvinists! Laughing!)

    •Mandras walked, hitch-hiked & finally got a ride on a boat back to Ithaca. O was given a ship by the king of the Phaeacians to sail back home to Ithaca.

    •Think Mandras also mentioned enduring the cold & winds of the mountains. O's ships were blown away from Ithaca when his crew opened the bag of winds that Aeolus had given him.

    •As Ginny noted, only "the funny cat,"Psipsina recognizes Mandras when he comes back home & then Pelagia realizes who he is & gets his mom. Only O's old dog recognized him in his disguise as a beggar when he returned to Ithaca. The poor old critter was so happy to see his master, he up and died. Only other person who recognized O in disguise was his old nanny who had bathed him as a child & recognized a scar on his leg.

    •When Mandras considers joining Hector & the ELAS, he said something about it being "demoralizing to wander like Odysseus from place to place." BUT, unlike O, Mandras had no clear goal in mind! O wanted desperately to get home to his beloved wife, Penelope, after 20 years. Mandras leaves home to go off to gain fame & name again & to preserve his image of Pelagia. He runs from the woman he claims to love because he can't deal with the real gal! He prefers his fantasy of her!!!!

    •This last one upsets me the most! In these two Trojan War stories, the character I most admired after Odysseus was Hector. He was one of the good guys! He tried to be a good son, husband, defender of his hometown and his simple-minded brother, Paris who was a whimp & too busy sniffin after Helen to fight! Hector was a fair fighter, a noble man and a Trojan hero who sacrificed ALL to defend Troy. Look at what deB gives us for his Hector - one of the worst excuses for a human being imaginable!!! It's to the point now that I dread reading Hector sections in this book!!!</per>

    Seems as if deB is implying that some WWII Greeks do not measure up to the glory of their historic heritage? What do you think??? Guess we'll have to keep reading to find out!

    Greek Partisans Angry with the Book

    Malryn mentioned this above. Managed to print out that article that Ginny listed above Books|Greek myth which addresses this issue. Found it rather disturbing & learned that Louis de Bernieres Smart (this is his full name - not a pseudonym!) refuted charges of communist objectors in that article. Know what's funny? The Sunday that I started reading this book, I watched a movie called Eleni on the tube. In it, John Malkovitch plays a New York Times reporter whose father emigrated to the U.S. before invasion started. Malkovitch's character obtained the post of Bureau Chief for the Times in Athens. He went there to find the man responsible for his mother's murder ordered by a partisan "judge". Atrocities performed by that branch of partisans in the film sound very much like what Hector's group has been doing.

    Racer Russ, I was surfing thru other SN pages last night & found another recommend that you made other than this one - Ahab's Wife! Enjoyed that one tremendously too & you've further gone up in my estimation!!!!

    Lorrie
    September 9, 2001 - 08:00 pm
    MALRYN:

    That's an extraordinary link to the author's rewritten chapter four years after publication. I had read that deBerieres had changed the ending somewhere along the way, but this is very interesting. Thank you, Mal!

    However, may we ask everyone to refrain from comment on this part until we come to the ending of the book? There will be a lot to be said then, and I would hate to interject it now while we're still only in the second week.

    MEGR:

    When I read Greek mythology in school, to be frank, I was bored to death. I only wish that you had been there---I really like your version so much better. Missy Helen's boy-toy, the same stench that Mandras and Philoctetes share---I love it! Seriously, though, if you hadn't pointed out the similarities I never would have caught them!

    Lorrie

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 9, 2001 - 08:02 pm
    I could not find the Polcha Variatas from the Mandolin Concerto by Benedetto Persichini, which is the first music the captain plays for Pelagia. Nor could I find any of the Mandolin Concerti by Hummel, one of which Correlli plays for the doctor and Pelagia. Remember his tapping out 45 measures of rest for the mandolin while an unheard orchestra plays, to the doctor's consternation?

    I didn't search Der Freischutz by Carl Maria von Weber, since that music is so familiar, but I did find some concerti grossi by Arcangelo Corelli, though, and put a midi on a web page for you to hear. This music is mentioned on page 202 of the book I have.

    This is the Fourth Movement of Corelli's Concerto Grosso in D Major. Corelli's dates were 1653-1713, and I'd guess this sound is what the sequencer thought the sound of the instruments of that day would be.

    Corelli Concerto Grosso

    MegR
    September 9, 2001 - 11:03 pm
    Ginny, Just finished last 15 pages. Here's additions to character list from second part. You can delete this post when you make the transfer. - Meg

    PS. Is this helpful? Should I continue doing this?

    Greeks

    <per>•Kyria Drosoula - Mandras' mother •Hector - meglomaniac & vicious leader of local ELAS •Aris - Hector's commander •Vlakhos - wrote letter to Hitler pronouncing Greece's right to national independence •Zervas - resistance fighter working w/ Tom Barnes

    British •Sir Thomas Maillard - former British governor of Greece, "unmitigated tyrant" •Charles de Basset - Swiss in British army who built bridge across bay of Argostoli •Brigadier Meyers - in charge of British forces in Greece •Josiah Tucher - philosopher; 1781 -"a daring and desperate Leader ...is terrible to the Peace of Society" •Lt-Col. Myers - in charge of local Brit forces •Tom Barnes - New Zealander under Myers command to fight Germans

    Italians

    •Captain Antonio Corelli - mandolin player & Italian officer in charge of troups during local "invasion"

    Germans

    •Col. Barge - commander of 996th German Regiment in Greece •Guther Weber - young German soldier befriended by Corelli</per>

    What did I do wrong this time? Characters were supposed to appear in a list down preceeded by a bullet - instead of scrambling together in one block???

    jeanlock
    September 10, 2001 - 09:34 am
    Mal--

    How thoughtful of you to locate that music. I look forward to listening to it later. You have put a lot of work into helping us understand the setting of the book. Thanks.

    Ginny
    September 10, 2001 - 11:55 am
    Thank you all for your wonderful contributions here to either our understanding of the characters, (BabsNH ...I have a perfectionist husband too) and Jeanlock) or the music and background ( Mal) or the mythological references (Meg R) and the cast of characters (Meg)(yes please keep em coming) and the humor and ridicule in the piece (Nellie), you've all brought great things forward.

    I, too, BabsNH, saw the movie but I'll hold off till the very last here in saying what I thought.




    Consider this one:

    Meg R has taken one section of the book and given us a look at the parallel tales of Greek mythology which are in the text. Whether or not we knew all the instances that are alluded to by the text, now that she has listed them we realize that De Bernieres not only knew Greek mythology but has ruthlessly applied it here in the story?

    We realize that there is more going on here than we thought. (And Meg left out Cerberus the three headed dog)...Mandras seems to be...he can't read or write but the Greeks had a long tradition of oral storytelling, supposedly the Odyssey was once recited, soooo.....

    What are we to make of this? What did YOU think of this if you did not recognize all the references to mythology right off the bat, I didn't, there are a lot of vague ones? And it has gone on continually throughout the book.

    What did you think was going on? Three headed creatures? Jaws with three sets of teeth? Delerium? Drug addiction? Madness?

    For instance, here I am, the Happy Reader, reading along nicely in a book, taking the facts as they arise:

  • Chapter 19: Wasn't this moving? I agree with Nellie this was very poignant and well done, telling the mother how her son died with honor when he did not.

  • Chapter 20: Mandras returns a mess.

  • Chapter 21: Pelagia nurses Mandras and finds a vocation.

  • Chapter 22: Mandras behind the veil.

    OK up to Chapter 22, we can see a pretty straightforward narrative, right? This happens, that happens, not too much to read into anything? There are references tho, but we can skip over them, smells like whatever, I went right over that one, paused on the old family weasel for a moment when it recognized him but rushed on.

    What happens in Chapter 22 to change that?

    Well lemme see, Mandras takes off thru the woods, he's cold and hungry, a mess. His body is faling apart. He encounters the waterfall and pool, ok, lots of them in the woods. ER...strange creatures with three rows of teeth? (142 bottom)...ok, he thinks maybe he's going mad and all, maybe he's delirious? OK . Works for me. He's hungry and delerious.

    OK.

    ON page 143 he encounters near the top "it seemed to me that there was a creature on it with three heads that intended to devour me."

    Oh?

    Ooookay, some more of that delerium, maybe? Strange with the three heads, tho, not too many creatures with three heads....very imaginative writing here? Very original? Reminds me of Cerberus, the only other three headed thing I had heard of until the Lucille Ball show with Fred, Lucy and Ethel as a three headed dragon in a play?



    He stops and encounters "Circe."

    OOOKAY. Hold it a minute.

    What is the reader supposed to think? Here De Bernieres has his character have more strange and odd adventures but he DELIBERATELY calls this woman Circe? It's as if he's calling our attention to the fact that he's running a parallel with ancient myths.

    Why?

    For what reason?

    What does it mean, if anything at all?

    You can't deny that all these references to mythological characters known for thousands of years is a coincidence, so it must mean something?

    Meg suggests the contrast in the real Hector and his namesake and the real Circe and her namesake means something: the decline of the Greeks and their society??

    I must say the modern versions of the story are definitely not up to the ancient ones.

    I think De Bernieres has a heck of a lot of nerve questioning why people would look hard at his writing.

    He left out a few mythological characters!

    Suppose instead of encountering Circe he had encountered a man with glasses, who went into a phone booth? And who came out dressed in blue tights? With a red plaque on chest and a big S on it? And this man was faster than a speeding bullet? And could leap tall buildings at a single bound? And seemed to call himself Superman?

    Why ever not? Why not have him round a corner and find a big badly put together guy with stitches and rods thru his neck looking for "Dr. Frank?"

    How about a little sailor guy who has a penchant for spinach?

    What are we to think? Mandras in delerium recalls the tales of his childhood and fantantizes that he encounters them? But they've changed? And he thinks he sees Pelagia too? Walking on water?

    Perhaps the author is saying that he's delerious and recalled the old myths with a twist. Perhaps the author is saying that his recollections (because we know Pelagia does not walk on water) are not symbolic of anything. He worships Pelagia but why is Circe old and ugly???

    What?? What??

    It's like encountering Superman to find he can leap and go fast but dissolves when the sun comes out.

    AGGGGGG!!!!!!!

    What do you think about any or all of this??
  • Ginny
    September 10, 2001 - 12:05 pm
    Here are some wonderful lines from the book, did any of them strike you particularly?



    "It's a shame," he had said, "that he was not actually wounded. It would have given him something concrete to concern himself with." (page 149)



    What is wrong with Mandras? What has caused his stupor? What has his return meant to him and to Pelagia?



    Father Arsenios knelt in his church, attemptinmg to find words to a prayer, preplexed by a novel sensation of having been let down by God. He had become so accustomed to the idea that he was condemned forever to be the one who let down God, that he found himself lost for a formula that was not full of reproaches, and even insults. (Page 146)


    Did you find this quote atartling? Insults in prayer? How does the conclusion of this episode mark a turning point in his life?

    Is this a turning point in the story?




    Meg, I can't seem to find the books either but think they were in the section about the trap door, can't find them.




    The section on the "tapping" concert on the mandolin on page 187 is a hoot, a real delight to read and enjoy.




    More tomorrow on Death the Perfectionist and Mandras.

    ginny

    jeanlock
    September 10, 2001 - 12:47 pm
    Just a few comments, and then I WILL TURN OFF THIS MACHINE, AND DO THE THINGS I STARTED TO DO THIS MORNING. I WILL, I WILL.

    But, first--as I was thinking about the book this morning, it seemed to me that it might be a mistake to take these characters literally. They seem more like composites of types and types of events. What started me thinking about this is the part on page 189 where Mandras has gone off to fight, but doesn't have the faintest idea of what to do.

    "He had joined up with one man, and then two others, and they had conceived neither plan nor purpose. ...." And the actions they take to hinder the Italians, cause such problems for the peasants that Mandras and his band leave the village (including the four peasants whose homes were burned in retaliation for the destruction of the bridge.)"

    I still find myself thinking a lot of Catch 22. Or maybe even Don Quixote.

    And now, I simply must tear myself away from this computer where I've spent the whole day and take care of some real chores.

    jane
    September 10, 2001 - 05:45 pm
    MegR: You want to use the tag <PRE> (not <per) to mean retain the format that follows. It's closed then with </PRE>

    MegR
    September 10, 2001 - 07:32 pm
    Jean De Neve, Thanks for your tip on setting up bulleted items & Welcome! I've written it down on my card of html tricks that other SN members have taught me! New Toys!! Yippee!

    Ginny, Ya stumped me on that Cerberus business. Knew this 3-headed dog guarded the entry to Hades, but for life of me couldn't figure out how that connected w/ O! Then I remembered that he had to go to underworld & saw the shades of his mother, that obnoxious Agamemnon, Achilles, Ajax & some others - so, of course, Odysseus ran into Cerberus!!!! And you complain about your memory!!!

    Mal, Above you characterize Mandras' mental condition as schizophrenic. Having a relative who is afflicted with this malady and has been for over 20 years, I know that this is NOT what Mandras suffers from by any stretch of the imagination!! He is suffering from an extreme physical breakdown and exhaustion; he's possibly depressed, possibly just pouting, possibly just "tuning out" until he's ready to deal with what's happened, BUT - he is not schizophrenic. There is is clear deliberateness to Mandras' activities when he "snaps out of it." A true schizophrenic has no control over actions/decisions without medications.

    Lots of good points raised above by latest posters and Q's above. Need some time to go back & reread them before I can comment anymore

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 10, 2001 - 07:57 pm
    You win.

    My very sick daughter, in whose house I rent a one room apartment, faces serious surgery day after
    tomorrow, so I'm outta here, folks. Thanks for giving me a chance to forget some problems for a while.

    Mal

    ALF
    September 11, 2001 - 03:48 am
    I see this whole story as a "unfolding" , if you will, of history. Dr. I is writing the history of Chephalonia and we are following the history of WW II. Each chapter is momentous and remarkable in its seperate entity as each event is chronicled by our cast of characters. It's an epic, a journal of each ones history as our author records the history of this horrible war thru the eyes of each individual personality. Each character is bombarded and engaged in a conflict of their own as the ravages of war are portrayed.

    Ginny
    September 11, 2001 - 04:38 am
    OH I like this, Andrea:



    It's an epic, a journal of each ones history as our author records the history of this horrible war thru the eyes of each individual personality.


    So you see another layer, perhaps of war? Would it be fair to call that another layer? I do like the way you put this and it falls in with english38's idea of man buffeted by the elements, too.




    Malryn, I am very sorry to hear of your daughter's impending surgery and wish her the best, thank you for letting us know. I believe you may be correct on the mythology as it pertains to Mandras but De Bernieres sprinkles it equally liberally throughout the book. I think maybe his just pouring it on in this section and deliberate labelling of it as if to point it out, is what made me irritated.




    We are all winners here and we're all excited about hearing all the different opinions. You all might want to look at the new Back When We Were Grownups discussion starting out, promising at the outset differing opinions, and people eagerly signing up to participate in same.

    We here in the Books pioneered cordial exchanges of differing opinions, it's what makes us great (one of the things, the other is all of you wonderful posters bringing in your different perspectives).


    Jeanlock, what an astute comment: "composites of types and types of events," I believe you may be on to something, I like that a lot: so you are saying that the characters may symbolize something greater than just the individual person? I had not thought of that!


    MegR: hahaha Actually I was thinking of Herakles? So the "memory" is not what it's reputed to be hahahaahha. But stay tuned for this one.....

    ginny

    Ginny
    September 11, 2001 - 04:47 am
    hahaha OK as you can see in the heading we have new thoughts and a new piece of cake (how slow does that heading load for you??) and I have a theory I would like for you to see?

    First off I think we can all agree this is a major book with lots and lots of things going on, lots of layers, you can take any one of the themes or layers and run a mile with it.

    The mind boggles over already being on Chapter 37? Short little chapters each one a different speaker?

    OK I'm not going to even look at the book here but just wing it.

    I was thinking of the characters, Pelagia for instance? Here she is waiting for her lover to return? He returns? and what happens? He's louse infested, he's a mess? What is her reaction? What does this say about her? What? What??

    But she nurses him and finds a new "vocation" in life? A turning point. Pelagia changes drastically here, it seems to me.

    So I started looking at the other characters? And behold, they're changing, too? They're changing when they come against all these events?

    Father Arsenios (see heading) is changing? Note?

    Mandras changes, big time? How has he changed? I can't really put my finger on it as regards Pelagia but it's a big change? He goes off to war to make a man of himself, meets Hector and learns a new way of being a man...victimizing others. Being the...what? Being the one who learns how to administer lashes to the poor old man, whose weeping daughter embraces him, and what was his crime?

    Mandras changes here.

    So that's Pelagia (I got up worrying over WHO was the protagonist in this thing and what's happening to them?), and Mandras and Father Arsenios?

    Anybody else? Has Doctor Iannis changed? Is anything going on here??

    ????

    Oh and somebody asked what that ELAM ELAS stuff meant, do any of you know?

    OH and BabsNH, could you ask your friend about the question in the heading? Does anybody else have a question either for BabsNH's friend Helen or George?

    ginny

    jeanlock
    September 11, 2001 - 06:43 am
    Ginny--

    Don't forget. Pelagia was already having doubts even before Mandras went off to war.

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 11, 2001 - 07:49 am
    My son, Chris, who lives on Staten Island, New York, was on a train headed for Durham, NC so he could be with his sister tonight and tomorrow for her surgery. We just learned that he got off the train at Washington and is heading back to New York. We are very worried about him. Since Staten Island is a ways from the city, we have to assume his wife and two year old daughter are all right. My grandaughter Megan who recently moved to New York is living and working just north of the city. We haven't heard from her yet. It is a terrible day.

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 11, 2001 - 09:15 am
    My daughter saw my son Chris's wife online. She and my granddaughter little Leah Paris are fine. Serena told Dorian Chris can't get out of Washington. We wish so much he had stayed on the train and come here to NC. Knowing Chris, he'll find a way to get home to his family somehow. No word yet from my granddaughter in New York, who lives closer to the city than I thought.

    Meg, are you near where that plane went down?

    Mal

    MegR
    September 11, 2001 - 11:14 am
    Ginny & Lorrie, Just checked in to get my head away from news for a brief bit. It's all too upsetting. Have family in DC, but they're okay. Lots of good Q's above. Will come back to respond a little later when brain is in gear again.

    Mal, no, that Bucks County plane went down about 80 miles east of here in a rural area of the state. Hope all goes well w/ your family members too.

    jeanlock
    September 11, 2001 - 12:21 pm
    MegR--

    What's the tallest bldg in Pittsburgh. When I used to visit Pittsburgh in the '40s, I think it was the University's Cathedral of Learning. Do you think that other plane was headed there?

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 11, 2001 - 03:50 pm
    The most ironic thing about what happened today is that we have been reading a book here by a man who details the horrors of war almost too well.

    My son Chris walked miles north from Washington when he left the train to Durham, NC until he finally got to a closed bus station in a very bad neighborhood and saw someone go in. Following that person, he was able to board a bus to Baltimore in his attempt to get back to Staten Island, New York and his family.

    Finally, this afternoon he called me and said he was in a truck stop hotel somewhere near Baltimore, and that's as far as he could get.

    With no public transportation at all from there, he managed to quell a desperate urge to take a car, anybody's car, and drive up to his wife and two year old daughter in New York. After he managed to get through to his wife by phone and find out she and little Leah Paris are all right, he calmed down some.

    Chris expects to be at that truck stop hotel outside Baltimore at least two days. This truck stop hotel is full of military personnel, he said.

    He told me the bus driver laughed when he asked how much the fare was from Washington to Baltimore and said before the railroad stations were closed, there was a charge of $68.00 to go anywhere in the country on Amtrak and other services.

    We reminisced about the memorable day when he pushed me 100 blocks in a wheelchair from the World Trade Center to SoHo to Greenwich Village, up to Fifth Avenue and beyond to 57th Street between 9th and 10th Avenues where he lived. It was a wonderful day I'll never forget. If you want a fantastic view of New York City, get someone to push you through those streets in a wheelchair.

    Chris said over and over, "What kind of world am I bringing my little girl up in?"

    My son told me that if he hadn't been on the train to NC this morning, so he could be with his sick sister when she has surgery tomorrow, he would have been in the World Trade Center, as he is almost every day for the business he is in.

    He was spared. I hope my daughter fares as well tomorrow in her surgery.

    Forgive me, it's been a day of terrible worry on top of too many days of worry, and what's happened to our country is devastating to me and all of us and a day of shame for the perpetrators.

    Mal

    jeanlock
    September 11, 2001 - 05:07 pm
    Oh Mal, that gives me chills. How slender a thread our lives hang on.

    Lorrie
    September 12, 2001 - 09:39 am
    We've all been subdued since the horrible events in New York City, and I know most of you are still fascinated by the incoming news coming in on your televisions, but I do not think we would be showing any disrespect if we were to continue on with our discussion here. If anything, perhaps this distraction could help to keep our minds off the tragic events. What say you, Ginny?

    Let's hear from all of you!

    Lorrie

    jeanlock
    September 12, 2001 - 11:49 am
    Just not up to it now, Lorrie. Just haven't had the appetite to read that book just now. Can't read anything, infact. It's taken me til now just to read 3/4 of this morning's paper.

    Traude
    September 12, 2001 - 12:52 pm
    Lorrie,

    though I like to keep abreast of questions and comments in this folder as best I can, I now find myself woefully behind, but I would like to take this (sorrowful) time to contribute some thoughts and comments.

    Ginny, when Mandras goes off the FIRST time, he takes up arms against the Italians, whose invasion was unsuccessful, at least until the Germans came to their aid, invading Greece from Bulgaria.

    And yes, I think a good look at a map of Eastern Europe would make things clearer, at least from the geographical point of view; precisely because this very area, which includes Turkey and the former Yugoslavia, has been contested, fought over in bloody wars for centuries, and remains a tinderbox to this day. Just think of present-day Macedonia. And check again chapter 18 where deB says in the voice of Dr. Iannis :

    Greece lies on both a geographical and cultural faultline that separates east from west; we are simultaneously a battleground and a site of cataclysmic earthquakes. ~~~~~~ The Balkans have always been the instruments of the foreign policy of the Great Powers, and have failed since ancient times to reach even a resemblance to advanced civilization because of the natural indolence, fractiousness and brutality of their peoples. It is true to say that Greece has fewer of the Balkan vices than other nations to the north and east, however, and it is also undoubtedly the case that, of all the Greeks, Cephalonians have the greatest reputations as wits and eggheads. ~~~~~ There are occasional deaths due to disputes over property, but we possess little of the bloodlust that is the characeristic defect of neighoring slavic peoples.



    deB. gives us a clear picture of Cephalonia's history : centuries of occupation by various invaders, among the most hated of whom were the Turks. In fact, the hatred between Greeks and Turks continues to this day; a poignant modern-day example is the uneasy truce concerning the possession of and dominion over the island of CYPRUS : half is occupied by Greece, half by Turkey, each insisting on being the historically "rightful" owner.

    And yes, deB tells that story in bits and pieces in a way we may not be used to. Of course antiquity is a HUGE part of it; after all, Greece is the cradle of civilization, and few would quibble with that. Why would the modern reader resent that ?

    Personally I think that it is impossible to read, digest and fully appreciate/judge this particular book within a few days . My personal preference is to withhold any kind of summation until the very end, and then allowing additional time for all my impressions to "gel". I believe that is reasonable and only fair when reading and discussing specific assigned segments in a group such as ours.

    Regarding an earlier comment re the islanders' trying to avoid thoughts of war : They DID respond to the Italians' invasion (that's when Mandras leaves for the first time); but who can blame anyone for being wary of repeated invasions and subjugation by outsiders who rape the countryside and then leave, only to have this process repeated over and over again ? Who can be blamed for wanting peace at last, serenity, and a normal life (however "normal" is defined), a better life for one's children ?

    As for Mandras, he is not the first idealist and patriot to return from whatever engagement scarred and disillusioned. When he left, he was "beautiful, luminous, and young; as exquisite as Apollo" (chapter 13). On his return he was but a shadow of his former self. Yes, Pelagia had become disappointed when he did not answer even one of her eloquent letters (which are another wonderful source of information on what was happening !), became convinced he didn't love her, allowed herself to consider the thought that he might never return ------ was then shocked beyond words when Mandras DID return, and appalled by his dreadful physical condition and even more so when he confessed to having carried her letters over his heart, but was unable to read them. The tragedy of this is palpable.

    And no, I don't think the comparison with the mythical legend applies : Penelope waited years on end for the return of Odysseus; Pelagia became distanced from Madras emotionally much sooner.

    It bears repeating that this is NOT a nonfiction book reporting historical facts; this is a historical NOVEL. The author's interpretation and reporting of 'facts' are subjective--in other words modulated by HIS opinion. That is, after all, what brought about the recent Greek protests over the author's representation of ELAS in the book. Well, we aren't there yet and perhaps this is all impenetrable for outsiders and proverbially "Greek" to us.

    Ginny, I have never questioned deB.'s knowledge of history, but wondered all along where his own loyalties lie; in other words, does he favor any side ? Which one ? The Greeks ? The Italians ? What clues does the author give, if any ? Did you spot remarks about the Americans ?

    As I have said from the outset, this novel can be read, and must be understood, on various levels (in layers, in tiers, if you will); and I would say that it must be read carefully, patiently, if we want to get to the core of things. Whether we "like" any of this is really not the point, or is it ?

    Translation of names to follow.

    Traude
    September 12, 2001 - 07:08 pm
    Here we go :



    il Duce = leader, from the Latin dux, ducis

    Clara Petacci, his mistress.

    Farinacci : farina = flour, farinacci are flour byproducts

    Gaetano and Galeazzo are first names for which there is no English equivalent

    Mario is the male form of Maria

    DeVecchi : vecchio adj.(m.) sing. = old; an old woman is vecchiA. The plural is vecchi (m.) and vecchie (f.), respectively. DeVecchi = a contraction of dei vecchi = of the old.

    Badoglio has no recognizable meaning or derivative, nor does Gericio

    Carlo Piero = Carl Peter

    Francisco is the Spanish form of Francis. The Italian Francis is FrancEsco. Frances is Francesca in Italian.

    Corelli is derived from core = heart.

    The Italian phrase in the Duce chapter "vogliamo la pace e non vogliamo la guerra" = 'we want peace not war'.

    Galeazzo Ciano, Conte di Cortellazzo, was Minister of Foreign Affairs and the husband of Mussolini's daughter Edda. He did not get along with the Duce, was removed from his position and "pushed off" to become ambassador to the Vatican. Count Ciano was executed in 1944.

    MegR
    September 12, 2001 - 07:59 pm
    Jeanlock, -- Guess in the '40's the University of Pittsburgh's Cathedral of Learning was the tallest edifice in the area. Since then, a number of skyscrapers in the downtown Point area (where 3 rivers meet) have been erected that surpass its height. These include the corporate headquarters of a number of businesses. They are the US Steel Building, the relatively new Mellon Bank building, the PPG (Pittsburgh Paints/Plate Glass) twin towers and a 4th one that I'm blanking on. It's strange - even back since college time in the 60's, I've been aware that the 'burgh could be a prime target - and our steel mills were running full blast back then. Since then, our number of corporate headquarters seem to have increased. This fact didn't hit me that this city could be in danger of being a target until my sister in AZ called about the hijacked plane that supposedly was aimed for Pittsburgh acc. to her local newscast! Fortunately, we didn't seem to be the target for the plane that went down east of here.

    Ginny, -- You've raised a lot of good Q's. Yes, I think all of the characters are changing or are being changed by the war that they face. Not sure if Patir Arsenios' speech is the "turning point" of the story or not. We still have half of the book to go yet & I think it may be too early to make that call - just as Traude said about interps of meanings of mythic references. (I took an initial reaction stab at that one, but have not finally made up my mind about myth stuff yet.) Want some more time to unscramble those and the various factions that seem to be colliding in Greece at that time. Think I'm getting myself confused about who's what in terms of political groups.

    Traude, -- Very nice analysis of Mandras above. There's something else niggling at the back of my brain about something you said about him that I want to sleep on. Also, much thanks for translations and additional info on Italian character names. They're a big help!

    Traude
    September 12, 2001 - 10:16 pm
    Sitting here with a heavy heart -- the continuing horror, the new revelations and eye witness reports of survivors are simply too distressing. For people in Massachusetts, the Boston "connection" in this tragedy is extremely disturbing : two planes departed from Logan Airport, a place I dread. So I turned to our book again ------



    and realized that I had omitted Rivolta's name from the list. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa ! The verb is 'rivolgere' and I was going to get into Italian grammar. Never mind. The noun means 'upheaval' - a most appropriate "nomen" for the despicable man described by deB, though I am unsure whether he is in fact a historic figure or a figment of the author's imagination.

    Another thought : it seems to me that Carlo's journal, if I may call it that, is revelatory in many ways and may well reflect the author's own opinions. Just look back at chapter 6 and reread the paragraph beginning with

    "I am not a cynic, but I do know that history is the propaganda of the victors ------ the ultimate truth is that history ought to consist only of the anecdotes of the lttle people who are caught up in it --"

    and chapter 10, "Atrocities are sometimes nothing less than the vengeance of the tormented."



    This is all arguable, of course, but well worth pondering.

    Ginny
    September 13, 2001 - 12:18 pm
    Due to the horrific and unbelievable events of the last two days, Lorrie and I have consulted and decided to postpone resumation of this discussion until Wednesday, September 19.

    I am glad to hear from so many of our Books family whose children and family were in harm's way but have miraculously somehow escaped and certainly our hearts go out to those whose family members did not.

    These events give this book an entire new meaning, to me.

    We hope you will join us here next Wednesday when we resume discussing Correlli's Mandolin.

    ginny

    jeanlock
    September 13, 2001 - 07:33 pm
    Ginny--

    I think that makes sense. I haven't been able to read anything except the paper since Tuesday.

    Mal--

    Did your son ever make it home from Baltimore?

    Ginny
    September 20, 2001 - 03:26 am
    Due to the extraordinary circumstances which began on September 11th, and the subject matter of this book, advised by the 20 participants in this discussion, all of whom, I hope, received an email, if you did not, please click on my name and write me, we have decided to suspend this discussion, but to leave it open for comments until October 1.

    We do have people finishing the book who might like to make some more comments and final statements.

    We thank you for your participation and commend to you our huge slate of great upcoming book club discussions, as well as a new OpEd discussion by Charlie Wendell, the first topic of which, I understand, is an article on this very subject: to continue or not to continue things at this time?

    We appreciate the great understanding and insights shown by all of our participants here, and invite you to post if you like to any topic on the book or your summary of thoughts.

    Thank you for participaing in our Books & Literature sections which are only growing stronger and more varied with each passing day, our success is due entirely to you.

    ginny and Lorrie

    Jonathan
    September 20, 2001 - 01:15 pm
    Dear Ginny

    Yes, I did receive the email. The decision you and Lorrie came to regarding the discussion of Corelli's Mandolin is a good one, in my opinion. The shock and the horror of September 11, and the remembrance of the dead and a grieving nation, leave me with little heart or stomach to discuss the book with any pleasure. I have no doubt others feel the same way.

    It is a remarkable book, and I looked forward to rejoining the discusssion after a couple of weeks of walking and travelling about in the northeastern USA...always a great pleasure for this Canadian. But this time it was just too painful, hearing the terrible news. Seeing the grim images. And listening to the solemn tolling of a church bell in a lovely Berkshire town. I felt myself one of you.

    God bless America

    MegR
    September 20, 2001 - 08:32 pm
    Just wanted to let you know that I understand why this discussion was terminated. Although like many others - I found myself unable to move away from the repeated horrible imagery and reality of last week, I was genuinely looking forward to the resumption of the discussion this past Wednesday as a temporary respite and escape from facing our tragedies 24/7 - and as a way to make a small attempt to retrieve normal life again. I have enjoyed this discussion and am disappointed that it's closed. I am going to go ahead & finish the book on my own. I'll miss not having the rest of you to talk with about it, but understand why others may not want to do so. Prayers for all of us, for those we've lost, for those who have lost - and after tonight's televised speech - for those who will be lost.

    Meg

    Traude
    September 21, 2001 - 03:23 pm
    It has always been extremely difficult for me to "let go" - generally speaking, and specifically to let go of anything that was not completed through some fault of mine . And no, I never liked anything 'half-baked'.

    The previous book discussions in which I participated here have been unhurried, thorough and, to judge from my previous experience, unique. Quite a few discussions were extended beyond the anticipated deadline -- simply because the exchanges were continuing, still lively, passionate and pertinent = vivid testimony that the participants had been engaged, touched, inspired, stimulated. We have ample reason to be humbly grateful that all of this is possible HERE.



    As for C.M., at first I tried to continue posting but, as long-buried memories of my experiences in WW II Europe resurfaced - triggered by the horrible events in New York and in suburban Virginia - I was unable to go on.

    I respect and support Ginny's and Lorrie's decision to SUSPEND the discussion of Corelli's Mandolin --and the use of the verb expresses my hope that at the proper time a resumption of the discussion is indeed possible.

    So much remains to be expressed and shared about Corelli's Mandolin in various respects; the historical and political aspects deserve more scrutiny (to wit, it was not just "a" war the author dealt with, as Mal suggested in one post); and then there is of course the last part of the novel (yes, dear people, there IS more about Corelli AFTER Chapter 61), and specifically its ending ---- to which readers have responded with a great deal of passion.

    Meg, oh good, you will finish the book. That's great. There may be yet another opportunity to get back to it. Perhaps when things are calmer. I am grateful for your candid input and insight. Our paths may cross again in this vast arena.

    A question Lorrie asked here BEFORE the terrible events of Sep 11 happened deserves pondering by all of us, whether we participated in the C.M. discussion or not : To paraphrase, Lorrie wondered why we knew little or nothing of the regional European wars/civil wars events described in Corelli's Mandolin, and whether we perhaps pay attention more or only to wars in which we ourselves participate. A most pertinent question in light of what has befallen us recently.

    MegR
    September 22, 2001 - 03:30 pm
    Oh, Traude,

    Your last paragraph above, made such an important statement. With all of the horrors, bravery, unfanthomable grief, patriotic fervor and increased kindnesses of the past week and a half, there seems to be one subject that the media and government officials seem to be ignoring. It's connected to the questions that you and Lorrie have raised. No one seems to be talking about WHY so many Mid-East countries loathe us or about WHAT this country has done in the past 50 or 60 years that has earned us that hatred. Look at all that we learned or recalled about Iran when we did The House of Sand & Fog. Our nation/government is not totally innocent; we're not really the "good sheriff" in the white hat fighting for the moral high ground. There are many stains & tears in that white hat that reflect this country's actions in the past. It astounds me to hear folks ask "Why did they do this to us?" when our government has, in the past, provided multiple actions, policies and programs in many parts of the world that have caused this abhorrence of the U.S. Yes, we all have been horrified beyond belief by the acts of terrorism that we have witnessed here at home, but should we really be so innocently surprised by them?

    Traude
    September 22, 2001 - 07:41 pm
    Meg,

    this has been an unusually busy but a joyful day, in fact a very FULL day emotionally : my son came by with the grandchildren (5 and 2). A treat that is dispensed infrequently, alas.

    Will think about your post and try to answer it.



    Thank you.

    Nellie Vrolyk
    September 23, 2001 - 12:51 pm
    I finished Corelli's Mandolin last night and inspite of all the horrors that happen to the characters, it is a book of hope; for life goes on inspite of what happens and somehow becomes good again.

    I didn't dislike this book, but neither can I say that I truly liked it.

    Traude
    September 24, 2001 - 07:46 pm
    Meg,

    it seems to me that Lorrie's rhetorical question was valid; we do indeed tend to pay more attention to the wars in which we fought. That is hardly surprising given our geographical location and the vastness of our country.

    By contrast, Europe has seen almost constant warfare for centuries, between nations and/or, as in Italy, between nation-states and ruling families, for religious and other reasons. Perhaps that's why WW I was called "the war to end all wars". Would that it had been !



    Perhaps you saw 60 Minutes on CBS last night; there were some opinions given on why we are hated in so many parts of the world.



    For me, Corelli's Mandolin is an interesting book from various points of view, as I have said before. It spoke to me, for I was there during the period described. I can understand that the book appears alien in a way to the American reader. Jonathan has defined it as a European book, and he is right. But how could it be otherwise ? The author is European and the historic events and wars he described took place on European soil. The Americans played no direct fighting role in the Balkans; in fact, they didn't enter WW II until Pearl Harbor. The war in Europe began with the German invasion of Poland on Sep 1, 1939.

    Nellie, I think it is possible to have a good discussion of a book even if one does not like it. Perhaps even a more exciting one. Liking helps, of that there is no doubt.

    Early on in the discussion of The House of Sand and Fog, readers took sides for and against the characters, none of whom turned out to be likable. But that may have enhanced the discussion, which was certainly lively.

    Traude
    September 24, 2001 - 08:10 pm
    It may be permissible, if not necessarily desirable, to talk about the period after Corelli's surreptious flight from the island. What about Mandras ? What do we think about the events, becoming ever more telescopically compressed ?

    To distingish between the various factions in the continuing civil wars among the Greeks is all but impossible; the edges between their political affiliations are somewhat blurred, the names a puzzlement.

    Does that make any difference ? What about the years of beginning normalcy ? Are they too summarily heaped one upon the other in the telling ? What about Pelagia's adopted daughter, her son and the family's growing prosperity ? And what about the ending ?

    Is it believable ? Realistic ? Are we glad or disappointed ? Would it have been better if Corelli had not returned ? Does the reader feel differently about him, see him differently ? Is the reader satisfied that all loose ends are effectively tied ?

    Ginny
    September 30, 2001 - 12:02 pm
    Due to the extraordinary circumstances which began on September 11th, and the subject matter of this book, advised by the 20 participants in this discussion, all of whom, I hope, received an email, if you did not, please click on my name and write me, we decided to suspend this discussion, but to leave it open for comments until October 1.

    We thank you for your participation and commend to you our huge slate of great upcoming book club discussions, as well as a new OpEd discussion by Charlie Wendell, called The Curious Mind, which is generating a great deal of attention.

    We appreciate the great understanding and insights shown by all of our participants here, and invite you to post today if you like to any topic on the book or your summary of thoughts, as the discussion will be archived tomorrow but is always open for further comments.

    Thank you for participaing in our Books & Literature sections which are only growing stronger and more varied with each passing day, our success is due entirely to you.

    ginny and Lorrie