Welcome everyone. Our next book is, as you can see, Crazy for You. The current Fly Away Home discussion is still going strong. It would be good to get your copy lined up now for the new book. I am aiming for February 15th for us to start this discussion.

I have received my copy of the book. I haven't started reading yet.

I've read some of Crazy For You and I'm recommending it a lot so far. I find it hard to put down even though it's very different in style and feel from Fly Away Home.

Harriet

HARRIET: I am glad to see you here. I am delighted that you are enjoying Crazy for You. I find that I am able to easily put it down. Maybe I haven't gotten into it far enough yet. Time will tell.

This morning I finished the book. I found that after I got about 2/3rds of the way I had a hard time putting it down. This story seems more possible in real life to me than the last one we read.

The book has a really zany quality and a lot of meaning in the title. I finished it also and got hooked fairly early into the story.

Harriet

Hi, Marjorie, I think this book is more like real life than our last one. I'm just into chapter 2, but I think that I have met a "Barbara" before. And I didn't like her. Quinn seems to like Barbara so far, but I wonder if she would if Barbara seemed to be after her man. I wouldn't trust a "Barbara" any further than I could see her. I wonder if this is the author's hint of things to come.

Wynona

I've just thought how wonderful to read a book and refer to one I have just read and to have the people I'm "talking to" know what I'm talking about. In this book we have a lot of people to get to know like we did in the Dakota books and we have destiny instead of fate and Bill the Cad instead of Chad the Cad, but when I say these things, you all know what I mean. A Common Ground!!! How wonderful!!!

Isn't it Ben who said that Tibbett is like a soap opera? I believe that our author intends to write the story that way. I'm to the point in the story where Nick and Quinn have rescued Katie and the police are arriving. And Darla in black lace is home intending to make the most of the evening with Max. That is the point where I quit reading last night.

This seems to be a book where we are going to "know" some of the characters. I know a BP as well as a Barbara--people out of our own experiences.

Wynona

WYNONA: I agree with you when you say how wonderful to read a book and refer to one I have just read and to have the people I'm "talking to" know what I'm talking about. You reminded me that I just received a copy of Dakota Home yesterday and I need to read that one soon.

Please "check in" and let us know who is here to discuss this book.

So far WYNONA, HARRIET, and I are the only ones who have posted. Is anyone lurking out there? How are you doing obtaining your copy of the book?

Happy Valentine's Day all.

Marjorie

and I have a question for you. I visited Half.com today and they have a lot of Crusie's Crazy for You, some for less than $1.00. I know you've purchased books there before. What is the procedure for shipping costs? I have read how to register, but haven't done that yet and I understand that the people who are selling have ratings. Are you satisfied with this service? I'm a little reluctant to give my credit card number, although the Policy says that the seller will never see it. Let me know what you think. Also did it take long for the books to be delivered? Thanks, Sue

SUE: I have purchased about 20 books from half.com. Mostly things have gone well. I believe you can request Priority mail if you wish that would speed things. Regular book rate can take up to 2 weeks to reach you. When a seller confirms the sale they have 24 hours to ship the book. There is a fixed rate for shipping. Book rate for a paperback is $1.75. A hardback book is over $2. I don't know the rates for Priority because I haven't had things shipped that way. I had a terrible time trying to get one book. I ordered Dakota Home and the first time the order was confirmed and then the seller cancelled; the next time the book never arrived (I think it was all of $2.35 including shipping); and finally the third time was a charm and the book was received. Half.com is "looking into" the one I didn't receive. I will buy from them again.

Anyone who wants to get the next book early we will be discussing High Tide by Jude Devereaux.

I got the book from inter library loan yesterday and hope to start it tonight.

Northern Joan

Thank you NORTHERN JOAN for letting us know you have the book. I hope you enjoy it.

I am going to check out getting the book. Please forgive me for not getting it by now.

Ginger

In part this book seems like that "I've been there, done that," or "been there, seen that." I can't say that I have ever met a stalker before, but Bill's actions sure give part of the meaning to our title "Crazy for You." He definitely lives up to the slogan of "Know where you want to go and go there." He certainly changes from the perfect man we think he is at the first of the story. Maybe a better description would be disintegrates.

Happy reading!!

Wynona

I was also fascinated by Bill's metamorphosis. I never related much to what makes a stalker function, but this book gives an absorbing picture of Bill's style of thinking as it gradually moves over the line from normal to abnormal. The thing is, it's so hard for the people around him to evaluate the moment when the final slide into the "crazy for you" abnormal psychology happens.

I've always felt that the difference between sanity and insanity can sometimes be a "persistence" or an "excess" of an otherwise normal reaction until, quite suddenly, you notice that a person is functioning in a bizarre context. When we think of someone as sane, we can forgive a lot before we "wake up" and take a good, clear look at what's happening. Quinn had been living with Bill awhile and accepted all his peculiarities passively until his behavior with Katie threw his strange personality into a new focus.

Even though Crazy For You has a zany, madcap feel, it sure is handling a few serious issues.

Harriet

I could not buy this book but did get HIGH TIDE and An Hour Before Day Light by Jimmy Carter. so will wait for HIGH TIDE and enjoy your post's on this one.

Ginger

GINGER: I am glad you will be lurking even though you don't have a book. Apparently SUE did that last time.

HARRIET: You put your finger right on the crux of the matter: ...the difference between sanity and insanity can sometimes be a "persistence" or an "excess" of an otherwise normal reaction until, quite suddenly, you notice that a person is functioning in a bizarre context. I can understand why Quinn let Bill think she always agreed with him. It saved a lot of arguments.

WYNONA: I was sooo frustrated with Bill. At the beginning of the book I wanted to just dismiss him because Quinn was leaving him and Nick seemed to be the one she wanted. It was hard to believe he would persist.

NORTHERN JOAN: Have you started the book yet?

Marjorie

Went down to my used book store this morning and got my copy of Crazy For You. I think I bought it from myself, its one I turned in quite a while ago.

Am going to sit down shortly and start it.

BTW I finished Luanne Rice's new book called Follow The Stars Home. Now thats a GOOD BOOK. I would give it a 9.

JUDY: I laughed that you think maybe you purchased your own book. I think I have given books away and later purchased the same book without knowing it. Is Luanne Rice a mystery writer?

I have started the book but that is about all. I keep falling asleep when I go to read. I have read two chapters. No comment so far.

N. Joan

Thanks for checking in NORTHERN JOAN.

I see a lot of things to talk about in "Crazy For You" and it's hard to decide on my immediate focus.

Anyone who has a reason to relate to a long term, take-it-all-for-granted, faintly stale but loving marriage, like Darla and Max's might have a few observations to pass on. Or comments on how such couples respond to adversity.

What about women like Quinn who have reached "a certain age" without marrying? Yesterday I couldn't help but overhear two young women at the table next to me in a local pancake house. One of them was saying to the other, "And if I haven't married by the time I'm thirty-five, I'll...." I tried pretty hard to eavesdrop on the rest, but the girl's voice lowered. Too bad!

In view of our book discussion, I would have loved to hear the rest of her comment. I couldn't help but think how differently society regards a woman on her own nowadays, as opposed to when I was in my twenties. Today women of all ages can choose a lifestyle to live happily, with or without a man.

Katie the dog made me think of a story about my niece's pet. Many years ago she found a small stray Mexican chiuaua (sp?). She and her husband placed an ad in the local newspaper to locate the owner, and when nobody claimed Rosita, as they named the dog, my niece and hubby danced together with joy because they could adopt her.

Like Katie, Rosita trembled whenever strangers appeared, and had a small hairless body. But that dog wore a collar decorated with fake jewels and made a glittering entrance wherever she was taken. As I read about Katie, I kept thinking about Rosita and the people I know who love their pets.

Also, I was interested in everyone's opinion on the two unlovable characters, Bill and Barbara. In one section of the book the author writes a conversation between Quinn and Barbara that reveals the inner workings of Barbara's man-stealing mind. Very interesting!

Ditto, a dialogue by Nick exploring the difference between what he means when he feels Quinn "belongs" to him, as opposed to what Bill means on the same subject.

And what about Nick, who has a few intimacy averse problems himself?

This is getting to be uncontrolled stream of consciousness and running too long. More later.

Hi Judy: I remember you mentioning "Follow The Stars Home" during the "Fly Away" discussion and I looked it up in the SN Barnes & Noble page back then. I read a sample from the book on the computer and thought it was wonderful. You just reminded me again that I want to read it. So many nice books to explore!

Harriet

HARRIET: You certainly did bring up a lot of things. I did not have any pets after about age 10 until 10 years ago when I got a cat. I was told I had a dog for a while when I was a small child. My mother never liked the dog and I hardly can remember him/her myself now. I was very indignant in Quinn's behalf over Bill's attitude.

I would like to know from JUDY and NORTHERN JOAN how much we can say about the story without spoiling it for them because they are not finished reading yet I don't think.

You asked, HARRIET, about our opinion of Bill and Barbara. I think I was married to a pretty tame version of Bill for 27 years. I went along with what I was told and never felt heard. I wonder why I stayed as long as I did. Why did Quinn stay with Bill? I never answered the question for myself successfully. Was it safety or security? The safety and security of knowing what to expect. Does that make sense to anyone. I am not sure I am making sense to myself.

Marjorie

I think you make a lot of sense, Marjorie. My experience is that the lines can easily blur when I try to figure out the day-to-day dynamics of my relationships. A person who is accepting and flexible may just tend to "ride out" problems and hope for a better day tomorrow.

Maybe that's what Quinn hoped for with Bill until he got so mean about Katie.

Harriet

I have read through about page 120.

I think the biggest jerk so far is Quinn's father!

I think some of you have the right idea about who Quinn stayed with Bill as long as she did. At first they think it must be what they want and then being somewhat easy going don't mind being told what to do all the time. But, suddenly you wake up and realize...hey, this isn't it for me. The dog triggered it. I don't really like the way she explains to everyone that he gave her dog away. She should be a bit more realistic about it.

So far, I am a bit inclined to think the book is a bit simplistic. Something about the way is is written....maybe at about a 7th grade level that bothers me. We shall see if I change my mind.

I don't care much for Darla....do you?

Northern Joan

I would have agreed with you perfectly about Quinn's father when I was at your point of reading the book, Northern Joan. I can't get more specific because, as Marjorie pointed out, I don't want to spoil things for in-progress readers. Besides, if I spouted a theory, it might not be someone else's cup of tea.

I guess if I had to generalize, I see this book as being written in layers. Peel away the surface layer and I thought there was a new look underneath. There's a madcap, simplistic element to the writing that is kind of comedic, but as the book went on I thought the characters began to pick up more depth.

Wynona wrote that this book is about people we may "know", and I agree. The thing is, I felt I knew them so much better when I turned the last page because I felt the author managed to encapsulate a lot of their "style of thinking" and some sort of analysis of what made them tick into different dialogues in the book

Of course, do we have to like someone just because we understand how they think? Ah, that's another question entirely. Where is the point at which someone continues to be irritating or despicable to us even though we understand how desperate and needy they may be?

I sure have never been able to figure all that out.

Harriet

Harriet.....thanks for the insight. Also, don't be afraid to spout your theory or opinions.....no law says we all have to agree. Part of discussing is seeing how others see the same situation. Makes you realize we are all different....and isn't that great?

Northern Joan

Hi, I love to read"romances" And I am into this one. Please check me out-I was a teacher-retired about 10 years ago-but I can't imagine a community allowing of all visible people-a coach-just living with someone.I can certainly understand why Bill liked beige-not that I'm sympathizing with his character-but after a day with kids, parents and BP principals-beige would seem good I think. I was a little disappointed that Quinn didn't make more of Katie-like walk her(when would she have time, right?) but it seems to me it was more just having the dog than really enjoying her(well, I spoil my pets) Also, as I'm getting into the book, in some ways it seems to me that the characters have watched too much MTV television.All this about"I've got to have it now" in some ways doesn't seem too romantic to me-maybe I'm showing my age.

Marjorie, I am enjoying all the posts.

Judy, It is so good to see you here. I have missed you. Email me and let me know how your family is doing.

Thanks all, for your posting. Ginger

Welcome IMAN. Delighted to have you join us. Thanks for giving us your insight into why Bill might like to have beige to come home to after a day at school. I was never a teacher and wouldn't have thought of that at all.

NORTHERN JOAN: I had forgotten about Quinn's father until you mentioned him. I agree with you. I was most unhappy with his attitude toward things. I am rereading the book and will have to pay attention to his character. He certainly wanted his own comfort and didn't worry about anyone else. A little like Bill? Bill wanted things his way. The difference is that Bill wanted other people to respond to him and Quinn's father didn't seem to care about other people. At least that is what I am thinking right now, I will check that out.

It is good to come here and see so much discussion going on.

Marjorie

Iman.....I think that today a community wouldn't say much about a teacher living with a significant other. Back in my early days of teaching, I am sure we would have lost our jobs if such a thing occurred. Today, anything goes. I live in a small town and don't think it would be a problem today.

I taught for over 30 years and never felt the need for beige when I got home.....just coffee and an hour of blank mind.

Northern Joan

Hi Marjorie Hi Northern Joan, Harriett and everyone else. No Marjorie Follow the Stars Home is not a mystery it would be a good book for romance in the future. It was written by the same author that wrote Cloud Nine which was a great book.

I was right I bought the book back again. I don't think as I rememeber that I really enjoyed this book as some others I have read. I would probably give it a 5. It was enjoyable but not memorable if you get my idea.

I am going to browse through and try to refresh my memory, of course I would have to do that if it was 5 days ago. hehe

I do remember that I could not stand the fact that Quinn let that guy boss her around like she didn't have a original thought of her own much less a brain. He would have been on the end of my foot and out the door way sooner than she did.

I am in the middle of a search for my birth mother and find little time to lurk like I usually do.

Hi, I'm starting to like Quinn a little better as I'm reading.I thought she was pretty shallow at first-can you imagine finding out your mother is gay and saying"Oh well, I'm glad she's happy"I think Joe is the beat down by life kind of man.I wonder if he and Quinn's mom had taken up shuffle board or something,things might have worked out.I mean, when people stop communicating,life can be deadly I think.I like Darla and Max but I think they've come to that brick wall that happens to relationships often and that has to be surmounted to go on. Not an easy one but I feel they really love each other.I also think Darla is funny- that black lace outfit really made me laugh-I've tried a few things like that with similar outcome.When you're not the black lace type I think it must look funny. And then there's the principal-sorry to say I have known a few like him.I think it's a testimony to the staff of many schools that they survivie when someone like that is at the helm with their own selfish agenda. I feel the author presents a good characterization of the break down of Bill. His growing lack of any sense of reality and his fixation on Quinn are pathetic and dangerous.What will he do next? I think it's interesting the way the author has wound the plots of the stories of different characters lives in the book.

I'm planning to start it this evening. Knowing me, I'll probably be finished tomorrow. Where is the discussion right now, chapter wise? I'll try to keep my comments to that part of the book.

Iman, your comments about teachers and now the principal have really whetted my interest in this book. I'm a retired teacher, too, and I've had some doozies for principals! Sue

Hi NORTHERN JOAN, JUDY, IMAN, and SUE.

SUE: We are not discussing this book the same way we did the last one. The format is freer (if that is a word). I am not sure where everyone is in their reading. I think that there has been no problem at all talking specifics about the first 100 pages or so. Several of us have finished the book but not all of us. Mostly we have been discussing peoples character rather than specific events.

JUDY: I will put Follow the Stars Home on my list of books to be voted on in a couple of months.

IMAN: I was disappointed with Quinn in the early chapters too. My disappointment had more to do with how she treated Bill and her father than her response to her mother, however.

Marjorie

Me too! I retired from teaching about two years ago. I've worked for one or two principals who were real works of art in my 40 years on the job also.

I was watching the TV show 60 Minutes last Sunday. Andy Rooney was expounding on teachers in his end-of-the-hour soliloquy. He explained his brainstorm of an idea.

Since retirement is a waste of time...according to Andy Rooney... the thing to do is fire all of the bad teachers and then get older retired people from all walks of life to teach in the classrooms and give kids the benefit of their wisdom.

Now all of us former teachers just know there are classrooms full of youngsters waiting, hushed and reverent, eager to sit at the feet of an elderly novice teacher and drink in knowledge. They wouldn't dream of fooling around or creating any disruptive behavior, right? No hangups or quirky behavior from any of those kids!

Moreover schools are TEEMING with principals who don't have ANY bureaucratic peculiarities, and are LONGING to hire unlicensed oldsters and give them complete autonomy on what they teach and how they teach and when they teach.

Normally, teachers need first class bladder control because we don't want to leave a class of children alone while visiting the rest room. But we all know that any principal will understand PERFECTLY if these oldtimers ever have a bladder problem that forces them to leave the youngsters unattended during longer periods of continuous teaching. Why would that present any problem? Of course, during these unattended moments, every child will wait reverently and quietly for the return of their teacher.

We all ought to feel fortunate that we spent our lives in such an EASY field of work! I'm grateful to Andy Rooney for his ideas.

And mind you, I truly DID enjoy teaching.

Harriet

That really made me smile about teaching and teachers. I see my malapropisms grow-lesbian, please instead of gay for ladies.I have to tell you the other day I was explaining to friends that my doctor had given me a pill that seemed to work for my arthritis and I told them it was viagra(instead of vioxx) so they now call me the 'comeback kid' I finished the book last nite-I was wondering if any of you thought it unusual that the author uses darkness as her character(Quinn) describes sexual ecstasy-I'm more prone to associate blasts of light,fireworks or bells.

I so enjoy all the insights everyone presents.

HARRIET: I was never a teacher. However, having been a student, I got a good chuckle from your post.

IMAN: I missed the reference to darkness you mentioned. I will have to watch for it when I get to that part of the book again. Then I will respond.

Marjorie

Iman: Your viagra story made me laugh.

Sounds like you have something pretty good going for you. If I were you I'd just let Quinn have her darkness and I'd go with the lights, fireworks and bells myself. Seems very okay to me!

Harriet

I didn't get the reference to Quinn and darkness either. I'm definitely going to have to read again.

That BP I did not like and it makes teaching more difficult to have to work under those circumstances. I think Robert went a little far though with all the things he did against Quinn. Some of the principals I had were all for athletics, but I don't think any of them were so personally vindictive. Everything was personal with BP for his own glory.

Wynona

that scene at the theater where Nick and Quinn really get it on. I stayed up late last night and finished the book, but I'm limiting my comments right now. I need to check my subscriptions and get dressed to go to Garden Club. I'll catch you later, girls (no offense, please, I know that's not politically correct, but I think of most of my female friends this way). Sue

I think it was you, Wynona, who said that the people in the book behaved like they were part of a soap opera. I think so too. I feel each one is almost a caricature and I thought each one had a dual purpose. The author develops them in such a way that we see them first, as they perceive themselves, and next as they really are.

Bill is the most obvious example. He feels he's a nice guy, out to protect Quinn for her own good and help her define the things she really should want. Of course he's really bonkers...over the hill...a stalker out of control. The author explains his thinking so clearly that it gives me the shivers. I understand Bill, but I don't much like him.

Barbara, the man killer, comes into closer focus in chapter 10. Everyone who knows her wonders which home she'll break up next. But how does she perceive herself?

It turns out the poor girl needs a little help maintaining her house in good repair, so she vamps the attractive handymen in town. But the lady definitely has her ethics. She carefully explains to her big, strong helpers that she would NEVER date a married man. Is it HER fault that the guys in question then leave their wives in order to get it on with her?

I felt that Robert, the boy principal, is drawn with the broadest and least sympathetic strokes of all. He is so completely vile and immoral and wants to keep his administrative position at all costs.

If the author told me to sit tight while she investigated the abnormal psychology of a stalker, the anxieties of a homebreaker, and the methodologies of a power hungry job climber, I don't know as how I'd cooperate. But Crusie wrapped it all in a zany, romantic package that kept me turning the pages.

I'm also interested in Quinn's mother and father and the obtuse, stoic Max, but this is running much too long.

One last point. The photo on the book jacket of my copy of this book shows Crusie as a pretty, redheaded woman of about Quinn's age. She presently teaches at a college level. I wonder if she writes about principals from prior experience.

Harriet

I think that our author knows more about principals than most of us ever would want to know--including those of us that were teachers.

Read about Jennifer Cruise and her books and a lot of other information about her at:

http://www.sff.net/people/JenniferCrusie/index.htp

This is the author's website. The first part tells all about her books, but if you go far enough down the page you get her biography and many other interesting facts. She is an extremely well-educated woman.

Wynona

interesting website. That is a very quirky, brilliant woman. And there really IS a Katie along with more animal family. I clicked on the invitation to see Ms. Crusie's pets.

Thanks for looking it up for us all. Isn't this fun?

Harriet

I found a place where it seemed the darkness was in Nick's eyes when he struggled with himself whehter or not to kiss her on the couch at her new place. I believe that it then said when they did kiss the darkness was gone.

HARRIET: I like the way you described the caricatures in the book. I hadn't thought that they might each have a dual purpose. I think you explained your theory well. I was just rereading the section where you get an idea of who Barbara thinks she is. I found it very interesting. I am sure I have a better understanding of what can happen to create a stalker too.

WYNONA: Thank you for the information about the author's website. I put a clickable in the heading so it won't get lost in the posts.

Hi SUE. Looking forward to your comments when you get time.

Marjorie

Hi, It's snowing like crazy at our place this afternoon but I want to click on that web site for our author-that's great-I will also look up-since I seem to remember several references to the darkness with Quinn but I'll try to find it. I thought the author's description of Bill's character was the best-his complete breakdown but it did seem strange to me that Bill had no other male friends other than the nerdy principal.In my school experience,coaches were usually among the popular guys on the staff or at least in town and always had buddies hanging out with them. When I really started turning the pages fast was when Bill had Quinn cornered in the school after everyone had gone home from the play practice.

Hi IMAN. I'm with you. I was really caught up in the story at the same point you were. I couldn't put it down until there was a resolution. You raise an interesting point about Bill not having any male friends. If he had, one of them might have noticed what was happening to him.

IMAN: The first time I commented on the darkness you mentioned in your post, I was apparently referring to a much earlier scene with Nick and Quinn. I just found the one I think you mentioned and it does seem strange to me. The only thing I can think of is that the darkness somehow represents her mind going blank. She is spending so much time second guessing what is going on and from time to time she stops thinking. I believe that is the darkness. I don't like that word either.

I 've been having fun tracking the course of Quinn and Nick's romance.

In an earlier post, I termed Nick as commitment-shy because he is afraid to get involved with a woman he likes as much as he lusts after her. Quinn, who is the first of the pair to understand that she does lust/like him, confronts him in the middle of chapter 9. Nick answers her. "I don't get involved," he told her. "I don't do responsibility." So, Quinn "blows him off".

By the end of chapter 9, two weeks have passed and both miss each other a lot. "...suddenly he just wasn't there. Quinn...was hurt, and finally just lonely, missing the huge part of her life that he'd occupied."

At the beginning of chapter 11 the two have an epic sexual encounter in which Quinn tries, unsuccessfully, to remember how much sex interferes with the much-valued friendship between Nick and herself. She fights sliding into the dark forgetfulness that his lovemaking produces because she knows Nick wants her as a friend, and not as a lover. And Nick really does back away after the erotic marathon.

Nick muses on their peculiar relationship in chapter 12. "He loved Quinn like a sister....love over here, sex over there. No mixing. So...he'd just keep loving Quinn....and find somebody else to f--k."

In chapter 14, the two have a sexual encounter in the school theater. Kinky, yes? This time Quinn is nearly overcome by the darkness that his touch produces. Yet, she knows her emotional survival depends on NOT losing herself in Nick's lovemaking. That charming cad, Nick, later tells her in chapter 15: ...after you blew me off for all those weeks, I TOOK YOU BACK."

Hi to all of you.

Harriet

HARRIET: Ah yes, Nick is a "charming cad." Bill is not charming and worse than a cad. What would you call him? And the principal? Yuk city!

Isn't it amazing what one word can do to our perceptions of a story!!! The word darkness had not even entered my brain as important. It's great that there are serveral of us "looking" at the story. Darkness does a lot to describe our Quinn.

I had thought of Quinn only as bright because of the red couch that her mother had and because of the "silky underwear...all in the weirdest colors like the electric blue and hot pink and metallic gold, and in patterns like plaid and polka dots and leopard and zebra..." (p. 52) Quinn had called all of this "her secret life." (p.218)

Bill was hard to detect as a problem--even by the people who knew him. He was so secretive with what he was doing to Quinn. He hid in his outward mental state well for a long time. He thought he was going to make everything all right. On his meetings he did his best to make sure that he wasn't seen. Even when three people lived in Quinn's house, Bill could still enter without being caught. The story covers just about three months and at the beginning of the story he was thought of as perfect as a woman's man and a championship coach. "All of Tibbett adored Bill." Although all of Quin's friends loved her and listened to her, they rather expected her to go back to Bill. None of the students (Amd students seem to know everything first!!!) seemed to catch on until Jason caught the coach with Quinn at play practice. Corey, who followed Jason's lead about everything, didn't follow him this time. I don't think that Corey could believe that Bill wasn't "perfect." And I don't think it was until page 296 that Frank believed Bill could be that much of a problem. Our author sure let us as her readers know what kind of a person that Bill was, but the characters of the story were kept carefully in the dark.

Wynona

Gee, Marjorie. You brought up the question that bothered me about Nick and Bill. I did spend some time trying to figure out what kind of "cad" each one is.

What's the difference between Nick and Bill in chapter 14? Nick surprises Quinn in the theater when he suddenly appears, forcibly holds her wrists, and makes love to her. Quinn's reaction? "Keep going....don't stop!" Later, in chapter 15, Nick tells Quinn that he knew she "belonged to him" and he was using his love-making to assert his "ownership" of her. He was "taking her back." after her period of coolness to him.

What about Bill? He accosts Quinn in the parking lot after her passionate episode in the theater with Nick. Like Nick, he forcibly holds her wrists. He pushes her into the brick wall because he too wants her to know that he's "in control...in charge," and she belongs to him. Quinn's reaction? This is ridiculous, Bill. You're hurting me. Let me go."

The difference? Reciprocation and acceptance from Quinn toward Nick, but not toward Bill. Nick summarizes the whole business in chapter 15. He tells Quinn, "I think Bill's a jerk, ....but I understand him. He thinks you belong to him. Every guy thinks that about the woman he loves.

What a bonanza! Nick is finally conceding that he loves Quinn at the same time that he expresses the male primal urge for ownership.

So, what makes Bill a stalker? If any of you are inclined, I'd sure appreciate some input from the rest of you here. Where is the line between the pains of unrequited love and stalking? (Boy, I'm talking a lot about "lines" in this discussion!) Is it when Bill hurts Katie? Or boobytraps Quinn's house? Is it in his singleminded inability to see any point of view but his own? Could he have actually killed Quinn eventually?

I guess I'm trying to pin down the line between sanity and insanity again because it's such an elusive, scary issue. Any opinions?

Harriet

Wynona, we must have been writing our posts almost simultaneously because I saw what you wrote after I had finished writing my last post.

Thank you! You took the path that I was most fascinated by, and you talked about the "line" between sanity and insanity and the deceptiveness of outward appearances.

I loved your post! More? Anyone else?

Harriet

Hi, I really enjoyed the web site for our author but to be truthful I was surprised at her academic background.I think her story smacks just a little of tabloidism(is that a word?) fun to read but not a literary gem I didn't think.I think in this story Bill is her best character portrayal(not the best character) but I felt we watched him go completely over the edge and I think he might have done harm if he hadn't been stopped.When he put the piece of yarn in his pocket after he had been in the house by himself, I thought-oh my-get the doctor. Also I still don't understand why Quinn talks about going into the darkness-maybe it's oblivion(she wants to forget what her life is really like?)At times I wondered if she thought what she was doing was wrong-that can't be it.I guess it's because darkness has a kind of fear context to me.I just had another thought-do you think if Quinn had been a little more forceful in the beginning-like really staging a kind of battle scene-it might have helped Bill? I love reading your posts.

Quinn starts out as the ultimate "good girl". All her life she has repressed her feelings and "gone along to get along". She begins to have problems with Bill because she is becoming aware of her own needs, which she seems to have denied since childhood. Judy, I think she's spent lots of time being a doormat for her family and in her relationships with men. Sometimes, it just takes a little push to get a doormat to start acting and thinking for herself. Katy seems to be that final nudge.

When we first meet Bill, we realize he is a control freak. His relationship with Quinn is all about power: his will over hers. However, his dislike of the dog doesn't seem unreasonable at first, it's just the way he deals with Katy right away. Then as time goes on, Bill becomes less able to deal with reality. He looses his grip because he has lost his power and control. He can't even coach the team to victory although he has been a terrific coach up to this point. And remember, Quinn is not the only person he tries to control. How about Jason and the BP?

Nick is afraid of committment, but he is also deluding himself. I think he has loved Quinn since he was attracted to her years before, but was afraid to act on it because of his disastrous marriage to Zoe. His cover is his long platonic friendship with Quinn. (And she seems to have been attracted for a long time too, but was also in denial).

I can't totally dislike Barbara although her behavior is pretty disgusting. She is another character who is afraid of committment and breaks up marriages inadvertantly in her own mind. She rationalizes her need for help as a reason to see these men, but she soon tires of the relationship and moves on to greener pastures. I don't think we should let the men off the hook either as it takes two to tango.

Even Lois, who was pretty obsessed with the "bank slut" comes around by the end of the book. She realizes she is better off single and seems to be coming to accept herself as not married.

Darla reminds me of myself and lots of my friends when we were in our 30s. Back then the prevailing notion was that you were over the hill (I don't even feel OTH now that I'm 64!)when you hit 30. She loves Max, but just wants some excitement in her life. His problem at first is that he doesn't have a clue. He seems to want her to tell him what she wants. I don't think she really knows, but he comes around in a big way at the end.

The Joe/Meggy/Edie triangle struck me as a lack of communication skills between each of the trio. After Meggy and Edie got together, Edie felt stifled about her lack of privacy. I think Joe turned to TV sports because Meggy, sweet as she was, also tended to be a controlling person. I'm not saying Joe was right, I'd have kicked his sorry behind out long before she did, but don't most of us know couples who have just stayed together out of habit or the children's sake. Their problems are minor, like Meggy and Joe's, but they don't ever acknowledge them and talk about them. They prefer to avoid the status quo.

Iman, maybe Quinn didn't stay upset very long about Meggy being gay because she was focusing on her own problems. Quinn's relationship with Edie both as a surrogate aunt and a colleague probably had a lot to do with her acceptance of the relationship so quickly. I thought it was ironic at the end to learn that Joe had known about the relationship for years, but he evidently liked his life as it was and didn't rock the boat.

I was shocked at the BP's behavior, but also Quinn's when she went in and confronted him. I've had a couple of confrontations with principals, but I thought some of her remarks went a little far, although he deserved them. His character was pretty much a caricature, I think, and was exaggerated. Real principals can be and are jerks, but they usually keep it under control.

Pretty nice high school, though, with a full-time art teacher and lots of after school activities for students. Tibbett must have had lots of money for school programs!

Well, I didn't mean to write you a novel with my impressions. I'm sorry I didn't get the book right away so that I could discuss it with you as everyone else was. I really did enjoy the book, although parts of it were predictable. Sue

Sue and Iman and everyone: While I was still working I had gotten out of the habit of reading. I was always so darn tired in the evenings, I just kept falling asleep on the sofa with my book in my lap. After I retired I tried to read more, but I found I wasn't thinking much about what I read.

Since I found Senior Net book discussions I've been trying to analyze things a bit more. I find that even a less-than-memorable book is fun because it is shared with a few dear cyberfriends like you all. I now have a a REASON to try to keep my brain active while I read because I know I'm eventually going to respond to things you all say, and write down my ideas..

I think this book is not great, but it IS so much fun, thanks to being able to share the experience of reading it with all of you. I'm so glad to read all your posts and enjoy them so much.

Sue, I love your insights about Meggy and Joe and ALL the characters you mentioned. They add so much to my pleasure in the book. I hope things are going well with your husband. It's so nice that you were able to find the time to write.

Harriet

P.S. I've worked for a principal or two in the past where I had fantasies about telling him off. But like you, I never did chew my boss out in real life to the extent that Quinn did. I think you made a shrewd comment about the reality of the confrontation scene between Quinn and Robert, the BP.

IMAN: Your comment about that book that it is "fun to read but not a literary gem" about sums up my response. I was a little disappointed after Fly Away Home. However, with all the comments that have been made here, I have found a lot more to think about with this book than I would have expected.

SUE: Your comments are most welcome -- being long and late does not matter in the least.

WYNONA: When I was reading that you thought of Quinn as bright, I had an image of a very vivacious person. Maybe that is who Quinn wants to be but doesn't express. When she tries to change who she is, it becomes difficult to find just the right balance.

HARRIET: I wonder if Nick is really the right person for Quinn. I have much more sympathy for her than I do for Nick.

Marjorie

Marjorie. I hadn't thought much about Nick being right for Quinn. Some of his macho remarks are not what I'd like a sensitive, handsome lover to make to me, but I do think that he cares for her. I especially like the way he responds quickly when she needs help with Katy. Any guy that likes animals is Okay in my book! Sue

Wow, Marjorie! Nick cares for Quinn a lot, but you made me think...is there a little bit of the controller in his personality? Maybe in a milder form? Some of his protective acts, like covering her bank loan, were done without any mutual consultation.

Sure hope the two of them turn out to be happy.

Harriet

SUE: I do agree that Nick cares for Quinn. I just threw out my statement to see if brought a response. Nick did do some very good things for Quinn -- he also told her she was his and that doesn't sit well with me.

HARRIET: We each have to make our own assumption about what will happen later with Nick and Quinn. Does anyone want to venture a guess as to what will happen next?

Marjorie

about what happens next, but I wanted to comment on Harriet's post about overhearing the two women's discussion about hoping to be married by age 35.

Our 40 year old son, never married, but living with his girlfriend for 4 years, finally popped the question at Christmas with his gift of a diamond. She is 37. We have been vacationing at the beach with her parents for the last 4 years. Both sets of parents have hoped for a wedding, but never thought we'd get one. These young people are business partners as well as romantic ones. We all thought that they would just go to the courthouse and get married after they became engaged. Well, they are planning a formal wedding in June much to our surprise.

I was considered to be approaching spinsterhood when we married. I was 21! I didn't hold a job before marrying, nor travel with girl friends, or anything really exciting except go to school. So I always told our 3 sons to wait until they were at least 26 to marry. I thought they should do some of the things I'd missed. Well, the oldest married at 23, but this middle one is 40 and unmarried yet and the youngest married at 32. I guess they took my advice to heart, but I was really getting worried, especially about the 40 y.o.!

I think women (and men) today have lots more opportunities for careers and other activities before marriage. I just don't think it's a worry to them if they don't marry right out of college as most of my friends did. So many wait a while to have children, too. This generation just has different goals than we had back in the late 50s. Sue

Hi, I'm really learning to read more critically I think after reading all these great posts. Sue, I agree with you about any man who likes dogs has to be a good person.When Nick started reciting some lines from poetry and such, I thought he would be a good match up with Quinn. I did wonder how she thought she would have things to do outside of bed with an auto mechanic(does that sound politically incorrect?)

IMAN: Yes it does but who cares? I sure don't. I think it is reasonable to look at what peoples interests are. The only thing here is that Nick and Quinn have known each other for 20 years already and spent that time talking together. They must have found something to talk about. If they were newly introduced, it might have been more difficult for them to find a common ground. I do think it helps to marry your friend. I doubt that Bill was ever Quinn's friend.

SUE: Thanks for sharing about your boys' marriages.

If everybody is using the same edition--I forgot that there might be more than one edition of our book--chapter 3, page 53. Nick spent four years in the service and then went to college for a degree in business with a minor in English poetry. He was able to use that poetry with other girls to help him forget Zoe and Quinn, and by the time he came home Quinn was already teaching art and involved with someone. And then Nick and Max had enough money to buy the drive-in for $120,000. Not too bad for a couple of mechanics.

I like Nick for Quinn. At least he hadn't interferred when he wasn't wanted and he was always there when she needed him. He had played brother so long, it took him a while to realize that he could be lover and husband. (If that is what those two meant by commitment.)

Wynona

WYNONA: I did read that about Nick. I was responding to the general question IMAN raised about a teacher and an automechanic. Our author didn't leave too many loose ends. We just don't really know what will happen in the future. Bill went to jail but will he stay there or get the help he needs in a mental institution. Is he a lost cause or is there hope for him?

a happy ending, because I do like those so much. Reality can sometimes be a bit chancy and romances offer a pleasant diversion..

Here are a few off-the-wall projections.

Quinn and Nick marry. Their half interest in the drive-in becomes a big source of cash. They have several kids and add a few more dogs and cats to the menage.

They gift Joe and Meggy with a 50 inch digital TV with enhanced sports channels. Joe is ecstatic living with his giant TV and his "exciting" wife. Meggy and Edie thrive.

Barbara meets a Roto-Rooter man with a know-it-all temperament. He handles household repairs and she manages the money. They joyously spend their weekends screwing and bolting and repairing. She NEVER lets him help a neighbor.

Darla and Max also prosper between their half interest in the drive in, the auto shop and the beauty parlor. They buy an RV with window shades. Darla stocks it with black lace nighties and they keep it parked in the drive-in where they enjoy frequent movies.

Robert leaves the field of education because he feel underappreciated. He becomes a sportscaster and frequently shouts, "C'mon big guy!" at his favorite players while reporting a game..

Bill decides all women are no good and leaves town. He joins the marines, becomes a drill sergeant and lives happily ever after.

Harriet

I sure agree with your views Sue. Who knew back in the 40's and 50's how much was out there for women to do. I just assumed you got married and had kids because thats what everybody did. If I had known what I know now I could have avoided a lot of unnessary stuff.

I agree about if the man likes animals he can't be all bad. I always was told whatch how the man treats his Mother if your trying him on for husband material. hehe

ideas for a sequel. However, I think I'd have Bill join the Marines, realize that he really likes to control men, violates the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy, gets a discharge, moves in with Robert who continues as the sportscaster and Bill is the househusband in their sterile, beige apartment. He becomes a gourmet cook and he and Robert entertain at parties given by professional athletes.

Judy and Iman, it sounds like we're on the same wavelength regarding animals. I've always had a dog and sometimes more than one. When our sons were growing up, we had gerbils, mice, guinea pigs, snakes, and lizards in addition to dogs. All 3 boys are animal lovers and have a varied assortment of pets today. Loving animals is not at the top of my list for matrimony material, but it is important to me. Sue

Laughing out loud, Sue. Really cute.

Harriet

I am just delighted with your endings HARRIET and SUE. What fun!

Hi JUDY. Glad to see your post. I wonder what my life would have been like if I had thought there was an option other than marriage and children.

Marjorie, Judy, Joan, Everyone:

So many of you wrote about the way everybody assumed we would marry in adulthood. I did make that assumption, but I also assumed, encouraged by my family, that I would go on to higher education and also hold a job...certainly before marriage....and perhaps afterward too.

Was I lucky in being encouraged in this way? Was that a common experience, or were some of us led to feel that marriage was the only expectation for a woman to achieve?

I had a friend who followed many of the same personal courses as I did via career and marriage. We once had a conversation in which she confided that her parents had discouraged her about going to college or working at all because they felt it "was not necessary" for a woman.

She felt it was a proud personal achievement that she succeeded in finishing college and going to work. She felt it was unfair, on the other hand, that her parents had encouraged her brothers very strongly towards college and various career choices, but not her.

I worked side by side all through my teaching experiences with other women who taught, but also married and had children. I guess I took it for granted that it was OK to marry and work. I must admit though, that it never occurred to me that I could also remain single, by choice, if I wished.

Was mine the normal experience, or was it my friend who had to CONVINCE her family about the desirability of higher education and a career choice for women the norm? And I myself hardly considered all the variety of career choices that must have existed, even then.

Harriet

my family about the desirability of a college education, I just had to find the money for it myself. They were proud of me for going, although it was difficult, but they also wanted me to get married when I graduated.

I graduated from high school in 1955 and college in 1958. The two most popular choices of careers for women in the south at the time were of course teaching and nursing. I knew one woman who was in law school and lots who were majoring in Liberal Arts or Music, but they weren't looking to have careers in those fields. Oh, and 2 more friends were majoring in Drama and were looking to careers. One actually made a living from acting.

I majored in Elementary Education and fortunately, I really loved my jobs when I was working. I taught the first year I was married, started having children and stayed home except for a little subbing until the youngest was in third grade. After that I taught 26 years. My husband was a Navy pilot and was deployed most of the time. Both of us felt the boys needed me at home then and the other factor was the terribly low pay teachers were getting then. It wouldn't have paid a sitter, transportation, and clothing costs.

I'm proud that women today have greater choices and are making strides toward equality in the job market, but they are not there yet. Sue

My parents paid for my college education. I even got some excellent private school during my high school years. I got married in my senior year of college and then graduated. I graduated with a B.B.A. (bachelor of business administration). My major in the early 1950's was secretarial science! I worked as a secretary early in my marriage and stopped working when the children were born. Today they may well have the same course at the University of Michigan but I bet that now it is titled administration or something and not secretarial.

When my children were in high school, I went to the local community college to learn computer programming because I wanted to prove to my husband that I wouldn't like it. I was tired of him telling me what to do. He said that programming was a "good field for women." Well, I took more than one course and was a computer programmer for 9 years. What more can I say? Toward the end of that career, I left my husband after 29 years and 2 children. My children are both professionals.

Marjorie

My parents were both first generation immigrants, and I was the youngest of three children. I was the first in our family to go to college. Both of my parents always talked casually about "when you go on to college" and "what you might want to study in college" so I always figured I'd get there, but no one ever talked about HOW I'd wind up in college.

One day, in my senior year of high school, I was called out of one of my classes by a guidance counselor. She said she had been going through my records and wanted to know why, despite my high grade point average, I was not interested in college.

I was stunned. Turns out I had missed all the deadlines for pre-admission tests and college applications because neither I nor anyone else in my family knew about them. The counselor, bless her, helped me to apply for Brooklyn College, one of the fine New York City colleges that maintained, at that time, courses of study free to those with a high enough grade point average.

I graduated with a degree in elementary education in l958. My friend who had encountered family resistence to higher education also went to Brooklyn College. We both felt that the course of our lives would have been different if New York City had not maintained that free tuition policy.

I married in 1961. My husband was also a teacher. When our son was born I took a leave of absence for four years. Then we bought a house and I went back to work full time as we really needed the two incomes.

I chose teaching probably because it was, by far, the most accepted career choice for women then. Fortunately I really enjoyed it. Nowadays there seem to be many other career choices available for women. The world is a wider place than it was in the 1950's.

Harriet

I went to college because my parents expected me to do so. (I was an only child.) They expected me to go to college just like they expected me to complete high school. I graduated from college and could have gone into teaching at that time, but I had married when I was a junior and was expecting my first child. I had two boys, got them in school and I went back to school and started teaching in 1961. I taught school for thirty-five years in the same school and loved every minute of it. I continued going to school all the years I was teaching and started computer classes because computers were to be put in my class room and I had to be almost as smart as my students.

Wynona

Hi, It's really been great reading all of your teaching experiences.My mom was one of the first women to graduate from the U of P(University of Pennsylvania) and so when I was born, whamp, another Penn student and Latin teacher. I did really love my years at college, had a wonderful time, butI don't think I really set about the serious business of learning until I got into graduate school.And then I just kept on going to school-trying to catch up,I guess. I loved teaching very much in the beginning but I took early retirement since my last 5 years teaching were a kind of living hell for me.I went to work then as a secretary in Park & Recreation of a local municipality for about 10 years and loved every minute of it-especially the comraderie of the staff( I think teaching is a lonely profession where you work really by yourself although of course in a classroom)I really had a very protected, kind of smothering growing up at home and so when I gained a feeling of my own independence and freedom, I could never give that up to be committed to another person. In otherwords, I stayed blessedly single but have friends,both sexes,and my little parakeets to keep my company.

My parents separated, then divorced when I was 6. My sisters and I lived with our paternal grandmother. She did not have a college education, just some "normal school" classes, but did teach school for several years until she met my grandfather, who unfortunately was killed in an accident when my father was 6 months old and his older brother was 4 years old. She took the children to her parent's home and went to work as a clerk, then a bookkeeper, then the assistant post master at our local post office. She was still working when she took us in and continued at the P.O. until she retired. Her sister-in-law, my grandfather's sister, was a teacher who taught until she was 72. She then got a job with the WVA Democratic party until she was in her late 80s. At that time she got a telephone answering service in her home and took calls for doctors up until her middles 90s. These two women showed great determination and persistence in their lives and it was a great lesson for us. Sue

Did you all read about Jennifer Crusie's mother? Her autobiography is included in the site of the author. It is very interesting, but I don't think it could be more interesting than what I have been reading for the last several posts.

Wynona

I am very much enjoying getting to know all of you. For some reason that I don't understand, it feels easier to me to type about my feelings than it would be to talk about them in person. I feel very warmly toward all of you.

Harriet

I'm back from a jaunt to the Twin Cities to see my new granddaughter Rachel Louise (1 week today). She is a cutie and I had fun playing with her sister Sarah too.

Now for the book. I finished it this weekend. Overall, I didn't care too much for the book. I thought it was rather crude .... too much sex and immature behavior by most of the characters. I did not have a real liking for Quinn either although I felt she was being mistreated by Bill. I agree with many of you that Nick wasn't much better.

Someone mentioned earlier to wait for an opinion about Quinn's father and I agree....he wasn't so bad after all. Maybe one of the more sensible ones in the story!

Barbara didn't really bother me either.....she didn't get those married men all by herself....they had to be willing!

I taught for over 30 years and had a few principals I could have done without, but none so obnoxious as BP. He wouldn't get away with that kind of stuff in todays world.

I liked Harriet's assessment of the characters. Good insight.

Northern Joan

Welcome back NORTHERN JOAN.

Hi to HARRIET, SUE, WYNONA, and IMAN. This is a great group of people with good sharing. I am enjoying every post.

This place as been very quiet for the last couple of days. Is there anything more anyone wants to say about Crazy for You?

There is a discussion ready for our next selection:

High Tide by Jude Devereaux

I have indicated that the discussion will start March 10. That should give people time to get the book. I found it very intriging.

When you go to the new discussion, do not forget to subscribe.

Marjorie

Hi, Marjorie, what do you mean"Don't forget to subscribe"-? I'm glad we're going to be starting a new book.Thanks.

IMAN: This is an answer to your questions about my suggestion about subscribing to the new discussion. Subscribing does NOT cost anything and it does NOT mean another registration. All it does is signal the SeniorNet system which discussions you are most interested in.

As I am going through various discussions on SeniorNet I use the Subscription feather of the software. I believe in whatever introductory letter you received at the time you registered there would have been a discussion of Subscriptions and how to use them.

You will notice that just below the banners at the bottom of the page there are two buttons one says "Check Subscription" and the next one says "Subscribe" or "Cancel Subscription" depending on which is appropriate. Since I have "Subscribed" to this discussion, and several others, I just click on "Check Subscription" to see posts that I haven't seen before in discussions I have "subscribed" to.

There can be a problem with this system and from time to time people have noticed that is doesn't work quite right. I find that any problems are easily resolved and it saves me from having to remember all the places I want to visit.

Marjorie

Hi, thanks Marjorie. I ordered the new book. I just learned there's a server called "google" on the internet. I'm not sure I can keep up with all this.But it is fun.

IMAN: I use google for searches. If I am looking for information on something in particular, I can usually find something by using google. You are right, there is a lot to keep up with on the computer. The computer will eat up as much of your time and you allow. We will be happy to have you join us in High Tide. A very different book from this one.