Read this..actually, read all of his books..recently finished "The First Eagle"..look forward to ll/l5..Juanita

Juanita, Welcome, welcome!! So glad to see you here! Looking forward to the 15th, too.

Ginny

Welcome Juanita!! I can't make the big red letters but my welcome to you is the same as Ginny's. Please do come back on the 15th I would love to hear all you have say about the book. See you then. Bunny

Good Morning,

I know that Sunday is a very difficult day to start a discussion, Sunday is a busy day for most of you, a day for family and friends. As a matter of fact November is a very busy holiday month. But Mr Hillerman has written an Edgar winning book and I want to know what you all think of it.

So maybe we could start this discussion not so much if you liked the book or not but rather did you think Mr. Hillerman used the southwest almost as a leading character?

Do you think a feeling of inferiority played a large role in the story?

What was your opinion of the F.B.I on the Indian reservation?

I hope to see many of you here on Monday and have a happy Sunday!

Bunny

Oh she is so smart!!!! I just love that Bunny. Tho I am partial she my MOM, heheheheh! Btw I think Hillerman uses the southwest and outdoors so his characters can relate to their belifs in nature/religion and plays a great part in establishing their autenticity..Okay okay I'm not a senior but had to be 1st to post in her disscussion..I'm just a bad boy,,,,heheheheh kisses MOM...

This is terrific, welcome to you, too, rwvamp! You don't have to be a senior to post here, a lot of young people have, including my own son! What a super surprise for your mom!!

Well, that was quite a read, and so much to discuss. In answer to the first question, I'd say that the, maybe not the southwest as a whole, but certainly that part of the area where the book takes place did tend to really dominate the book, and it was a pleasant domination. Almost a presence.

The author is actually very skillful in revealing details of the background secnery, making them almost NOT in the background, and in instructing us on the strange (to me) and historic elements of its surroundings. I'm not sure that I can imagine the hero in a different locale, think maybe his skills would not be as honed in the city, perhaps, but his tracking and mental processes were fascinating, I thought.

His descriptions of his physical surroundings were not intrusive, but just added atmosphere, but I've got lots of questions, too.

A modern Indian (will use that term in place of Native American) in a modern world using old techniques: really effective, I thought.

This is the first Hillerman I've read, and it was an eye opener!

Ginny

Joe leaphorn's quest for , what did he call it? I would say, seeking to find the logic of the intersection of the victim and the murderer, is a puzzle I delight in following. Hillerman's clues are crypticly explicit, but rereading this story for the fifth or sixth time has not robbed it of its enjoyment for me. I am ready to move to the Four Corners. (I can too build a proper hogan.)

I heard somewhere, was it here?, that Mr. Hillerman is seriously ill. I pray that he is recovering.

Well, well, surprise looks whos here!!! What a rascal you are son, but I thank you for your support,you made my day. Mark you really made a good point with religion/nature but don't you think they are synoymous with the Navajos? I invite you back at anytime you wish, you do have good insight, no doubt learned at your mother's knee.

Ginny your so right about not the whole southwest. I should have made it more clear, I'm talking of the "Big Res" and the parts surrounding it. This land is huge and parts of it look forbidding, other parts inspiring. On page 86 chaper twelve Leaphorn talks about the startling beauty and how he takes time to examine it. I loved your line that the land became a presence.

Oh Jackie I'm so sorry you had to read the book again but happy to know it held up for you. Joe Leaphorn beleaves only in the logic of things no accidental sequence of events for him. Remember the wonderful map with the color pins?

When you build your hogan Jackie let me know I'll visit in a heartbeat. After reading this book I started my collection of kachinas, so Mr Hillermans books can get costly.

Have a good evening and love, Bunny

Marilyn Alberts

Hi everyone, this is my first time in an Internet discussion group and I am looking forward to reading all the comments. This is also my first Hillerman book and although not riveted from beginning to end like the bookjacket states I am finding the Indian folklore very interesting. About the landscape being a presence or character in the book it seems Hillerman introduces this character quite a lot especially in his descriptions of light and shadow and how it relates to Leaphorn. Could this be a metaphor for good and evil in nature and how it surrounds the human characters in the book? Bye for now

Marilyn: What an interesting idea. I had not thought of it that way. I have visited California deserts, and I know slightly the strength of the sun. To me it was both a qualitative and a quantitative difference. But the evil is certainly almost a presence, isn't it? Thank you for opening my eyes to it.

Marilyn, Welcome!!Welcome~! Wow, and what a beginning! We're so glad you're here, you've given us another neat thing to think about, please look around and plan to stay a long time!! That was great, I agree, Jackie!

We're getting really hot here in the Books! Yay!!

Ginny

Well,well I can see you haven't learned not to invite a vampire into your house yet MOM. (Ginny too) But since you have I will stay awhile. Since dark and light, good and evil has come up again I would remind all how most Native Americans relate their attachment to nature is through storytelling. Kachina's and sand paintings, ceromony and superstition are all used to bind themselves to nature. The main part of their belief system is one of being at peace with nature.. This theme has been used for many years in the writings of tragedies, something is always askew with nature as the mystery begins.(remember Hamlet) Hillerman taps this idea in a large scale bringing the modern era of police work and one of tribal customs/ritual into a direct conflict. Usually clues are discovered by intuition, more than by police work. The largeness of the open southwest, I feel is used to make the reader seem more lost and urges him to see how to relate to nature; and nature will set the wrong right. Leaphorn always turns to his roots before he discovers a truth(clue), or uses his teachings to find his center.

To touch on another topic the (cops) F.B.I....This insight comes from reading more than one Hillerman novel. He seems to let each group lead themselves thru each others turf. In other books the police seem to help Leaphorn and partner survive outside the confines of the reservation. So Hillerman resists the chance to turn them into keystone cops but lets his detective do the leading through the customs and culture of his way of investigation.

Time to go...moons out hehehehehe.

rwvanp: I thought this statement was fabulous: " The largeness of the open southwest, I feel is used to make the reader seem more lost and urges him to see how to relate to nature; and nature will set the wrong right. Leaphorn always turns to his roots before he discovers a truth(clue), or uses his teachings to find his center. "

This book has really been an eyeopener for me in a lot of ways. We sponsor a Zia Pueblo child, and this book explains SO MUCH of the things I didn't understand.

I agree about the forces of nature being paramount in the thinking of the Indian, and just the part about the spirits surrounding a visitor gives one pause. They explain in this program, the Futures for Children, that if you DO go to visit, you must sit in your car outside and wait, but they just say it's good manners, and don't indicate WHY. I do like a book that I can learn from, and the almost pantheistic nature of the Indian's existence is very compelling. Even today.

I did notice a bit of hostility toward the "whiteman," and, in fact, was surprised to see it in print in this PC world.

Ginny

Morning to all, my you have all been so busy I feel way behind. Welcome to you Marilyn,please stay a while.

I looked up the word hostile. Meaning---pertaining to an enemy. I would have just said bad feelings to someone. Now why I the world would the Indians feel hostile to us? Didn't we give them land? Sure we did, no water on it but what the heck they can haul in water for miles and miles. Didn't we give them schools? Sure we did, but we forbid them to use their own language,and it was almost lost. Then we needed the language in world war two. It was the only code the Germans couldn't break. Then we decided to study their culture and go into their cemeteries and dig up the bones of their ancestors. But thats alright its all in the name of history! Dig up my grandmother and I'd raise all sorts of hell. Even in the name of history. So what right do the Indians have to be hostile to the white man, my I just can't imagine. Are things better today? Of course some. They are making money on gas lines, some have found oil on their land, and don't forget the ever present casinos that can bring in a million a day.

The Indian people have the most lovely art work. Look at a Gorman or a Rabbit and see the spirit in them and we sure didn't give them that. So lets take a look at the enemy and maybe it is us. Mr. Hillerman does not write about Indian folklore he writes about the culture of the Indian people. I asked the question, does a feeling of inferiority run through the book? Well why wouldn't it? Wow sounds like I'm on a soapbox. Well maybe I am.

Love to all, Bunny

Bunny: Actually, I think I was trying to answer the question about the feeling of "inferiority" in the heading? Perhaps I didn't do that well, I was and am surprised at the term "whiteman" which would not be acceptable in a book of Black Fiction? Would it??

There's no question that Indian rights were abused, it's a sorry blight on American history. I expect I didn't look closely enough at Question #2, sorry. Perhaps you were referring to the different tribes's relationships to each other??

Ginny

O.K. Ginny I'll try. Do you remember when Leaphorn was in collage and had a Zuni roommate and Leaphorn said he had a feeling of inferiorty to him. Then when we meet George he has the same feeling and wants to be a Zuni. Then next its Susanne who lives with the hippies. Then theres poor Ted Isaacs, well maybe he was inferioor. So I felt there was almost a theme running in the book, of people hurting people because of this feeling of inferiority. I wanted to know what others thought, and did they think this was so.

"Whiteman" in a black book? I see it all the time. I also see the word "Honky" meaning Whites. Just a deeper slang word.

Please if I haven't made myself clear feel free to change whatever you wish. Bunny

Nope, you're right, it did run all thru the book, and since you've pointed it out, I do remember it. That's what a person gets for reading it in one day. Still, I did enjoy it, now what would cause that inferiority feeling?

There was a letter that came with the explanation packet for our child we've been sponsoring, and it went on quite a bit about the difference in the different tribes, and how some felt that this particular tribe (the Zias) might have coll...I can't spell, collaborated with the enemy, in some far away time in history, and so were not looked upon with as much favor as possibly another Pueblo Tribe. And I remember thinking, but that was ages ago?? But apparently it's still going on, the feelings of looking down on some whole people for something somebody did hundreds of years ago.

I also noticed a sort of hard reference to Apaches, too. Do you know of any tribal rivalries or something which would cause this feeling of....I don't know, that's a pretty good question, makes you think about what causes feelings of inferiority in the first place.

Ginny

No. 1
No. 2
No. 3
No. 4


Bunny, I'm confused, as all I can seem to find are Hopi Kachinas? And I can't find anything like that killer one??

Do you like any of these??

Ginny

Check this one out, each one of those enlarges on its original site?

lpahola1b.jpg

They're all in the thousands, three thousand, five thousand, etc.

Ginny

Marilyn

Bunny, what you said about the characters and a running thread of inferiority really rings true. I hadn't thought how continuous, also there is the relationship of the FBI agent O'Malley which becomes clear in chapter 17 what he thinks of Leaphorn. The smirks, the witholding of information and saying he won't bother filing charges against the person involved with the syringe. Maybe that predjudice isn't necessarily against the Indians but just an FBI thing. It is obvious that O'Malley doesn't trust Leaphorns judgement and vice versa as shown by Leaphorn at the end of the book and his own witholding of the solution to the murders. Seems that both sides have a way with finding solutions, logical vs. intuitive. I do have a question maybe someone has a comment on it. I didn't realize that this book was written in 1973. But during the crime scene investigation I said to myself this must have been pre-o.j simpson case because Leaphorn arrives on the murder scenes disregarding the gathering of evidence. Possible that back in 73 forensics didn't use nail scrapings and any other hi-tech methods there are now. The crime scene on the 2nd murder site never seemed to be investigated? Leaphorn arrives in the middle of the night taking evidence? Also did Leaphorn report to anyone he seemed to have a lot of time on his hands to follow his own leads.

Wow! Nixon was still President in '73. Good point, Marilyn. Inferiority/superiority feelings would be one way of describing the alienation between the various factions. Aloof, solitary Navajo dismisses ant-hill Zuni town. Feebs sneer at Tribal Police. Wasp druggies regard "others' as too dumb to live. And so on. Predators and prey.

Hi, how are you doing this morning? One time I was talking to some people about this book and a lady said to me oh your talking about that stoic cop on a reservation. I so didn't want you to see Joe that way and you haven't. You to are wonderful you saw him as a person. I'll tell you a secret I'm I love with Joe and I wanted so for you like him too.

Marilyn about the forensics, your right on. I thought about this and got out my book again. On page 58 after Leaphorn finds Shorty he is mad at himself for sitting in his truck while a murder is taking place. He goes on to say "The wind,snow,dust and darkness make the eyes and ears useless, he might as well be on another planet. Then he takes Cecil on a two hour drive to a safe place. Now we know he has a radio in his truck so I'm sure he called all the information in. On page 68 O'Malley says "if there's any physical evidence which leads anywhere we'll find it." This leads me to beleave that they were all stepping one each others toes to get evidence. I feel that Hillerman just didn't go there in his story. I know in later books he is into more forensic than in this one. How many of the Hillerman books have you read? Did you find he got a little more modern as he went along?

Oh Jackie I just loved what you have to say about the predator and prey. Its sort of the ying and yang of life. Do you think Leaphorn changed as he went along in his books? Do you think he became more modern?

Love Bunny

Oh Ginny how wonderful to see the kachinas they are lovely.. The Hopi are the masters at making the kachina. Yes they are indeed pricey. I have a collection of the Navajo, its more in my price range. The Navajo kachina is very nice they have fur and feathers on them. When I started my collection I met a Shaman who told me that a kachina is a spirit essence of everything in the real world. Can you tell me where the Zias live? How old is your child and have you been to visit?

Bunny, so there are Navajo Kachinas, wonder how many other tribes have them??? Have you seen this one Shalako?? With the black crow feathers? Will try to find a Navaho kachina.

Jordan is in the third grade, the entire class was held back last year, which I don't particularly think is a good situation. I have not been out, the entire family is gorgeous, prettiest children you ever saw, he's a sweetheart.

But, everybody, what CAUSES an inferiority complex? Isn't inferiority something in a person? If you look down on me, that doesn't mean I'm going to think I'm less of a person unless.....? What's the deciding factor??

When Jordan was in the first grade and I was trying to encourage him to read and sending him books, his mom wrote me that English was not a good subject for him? But that he could learn English any time and he needed to learn the Zia ways (they're near Albuquerque I believe) first! Was quite firm about it. So I did not know that English there is a second language. Also on his birthday, they call it Cruz Day as his second name is Cruz, people come from all around? And they dance and dance, and visit the house and eat, and apparently he's the center of attention, not in school. The dancing is so important, and this book helped me understand why.

Yes, I think the character of Leaphorn is quite compelling. How do you visualize him? I've not formed a clear picture of him in my mind.

Ginny

Hi Ginny, The kachina your looking for is Salamobia of the mole kiva. This is most always a mask worn by a dancer. The mole kiva comes from underground. You have an almost impossible task in front of you. If you are really on the hunt, you could find the Little Fire God, or Shulawitsi. You can find a Shalako who was the leader of the ceremonial we have been reading about. Go to www.Navajo.com and you will see a lot that we are talking about.

Now for the other questions. Let me think this out so I can make my words clear. I am sure an inferiory complex is a caused thing and it has to do with a belief system. No baby comes into the world feeling inferiory. It is learned from parents, teachers and kids in school. It grows as a fungus and causes much pain. Now see I'm not clear. I'll take a time out.

I'll be back to talk about Joe also but remember I am many books ahead of you. Bunny P.S. Ginny want to know about fetishes? I could drive you nuts?

Fetish: This site has a lot of neat and inexpensive stuff! Here's something about the artist:

A noted sculptor from Tesuque Pueblo, Mark combines various natural materials in his work. He uses limestone, marble, and alabaster, often decorating his pieces with parrot and turkey feathers. Mark's work can be seen on permanent display at the Wheelwright Museum in Santa Fe, the Institute of American Indian Art in Santa Fe, and the Smithsonian Museum in Washington DC.

One year for Christmas Jordan's mother sent my husband and me hand painted mugs? Each has their distinctive art on it and our names? Here is a bowl from a Zia artist and you can see some of the symbols that are on our mugs. I have a feeling that what's on our mugs means something, now.

Native Pots

And here's something about the artist:

Elizabeth Medina is a talented potter from the Zia Pueblo. For many years now, her work has been in great demand. All of her pots are still created in the traditional methods used by the Zia Pueblo. They are hand coiled, painted with natural pigments, and then ground fired. Her work is on permanent display at the Albuquerque Airport and the Santa Fe Museum of Indian Art. She has won numerous awards at the various shows including the prestigious Indian Market in Santa Fe. Her husband Marcellus, the son of Rafael Medina, is also a well known potter. Every once in while, Elizabeth and Marcellus collaborate on a piece. It is a pleasure showcasing their work.

Back to the book, however! Since the story is told thru Leaphorn's point of view, I'm getting the impression that he doesn't think much of archaeologists? Neither Reynolds, the supposedly kindly head of the expedition, nor Isaacs come off very well. In fact, Leaphorn himself says that they need somebody to "help them," on page 173, and "a world full of losers--"and if Suzanne can get to them in time, she can help them, "Which is what keeps her from being a loser, too."

Stephen King, in his treatise on horror, which I just started for the Horror discussion, makes the point that readers want a writer to write ....I need to look up the exact quote, but about the same thing over and over, or even the same BOOK over and over....in Hillerman's books, is the evil presence always represented by outsiders to the Navajos?

I understand that many of the Indian legends and customs are not written down, so Hillerman is really doing quite a service in his books, and they're very enjoyable. This is the first one I've read.

Marlyn: Those are very astute comments on the investigaton. I think I just assumed that somebody ELSE was covering the crime scene? Of course, as you say, this was pre OJ. It's amazing how that one trial has affected us all, even those of us with nothing at all to do with law enforcement. Just yesterday, in either U.S. News or Newsweek I read that the sterling OJ, now embroiled in another custody battle for the children, stated that he sometimes berates Nicole for not being there to help with the raising of the children. Truly, he must be a madman. I understand she comes to him in his dreams: the stuff of Poe. The FBI, with which I have had no personal dealings, must really be obnoxious in person, as it seems every book we read, including the latest Nelson DeMille, treats them with contempt. Sort of surprising, to me, but I have no first hand, and don't want any, knowledge.

Ginny

I have just started this book--I have read several of his other books and do enjoy them. I like the setting he uses, etc. etc.

Ginny, those illustrations are beautiful--I LOVE that bowl!!

Morning, Gee Ginny if no one wants to talk about the book they should at least come in and see the art work. Its just wonderful. In Sunset mag. for the month of November there is a spread of Monument Valley, this is on Navajo land. Loved the fetish they are believed to have magical powers. I have about four of them and I'm not rich yet, so maybe they don't work.

Hi May, welcome, come and join us. What do you think of Mr. Hillermans writings? Can you help us with the answers to the questions this book has brought up?

Bunny

May!! Now, this IS nice, we've got Marilyn with her first online discussion, and May who was with us when we started up our first online discusssion, so it's really a great group for Bunny, and I have a feeling there are more coming!~

Yes, isn't the bowl pretty, I'm thinking that the figure is a roadrunner and it's good luck, and my mug has stairs on it or blocks in front and in back of the roadrunner. It's actually too nice to drink out of, ought to be on a shelf to be admired somewhere.

Today in the Post Office, have you seen the new stanps of Indian Dancers? One has hoops: could that be a Hopi?? Anyway, with my new consciousness I rounded around on the New Post Mistress and said, What tribes of Indians are those?

Need I say I got a startled look? I fear the new Postmistress is already wondering WHY she took this job! Anyway, she said she didn't know. I bet there is some info somewhere, the stamps are very pretty.

Bunny: I haven't seen a Sunset magazine in years! We used to have an Uncle in Arizona and he always sent us Arizona Highways? is that the right title? Boy what photos!! I tried to find Sunset on the web and got something very strange!~

I've actually been IN the area, but it was before we sponsored Jordan, went to Phoenix and Tuscon and Flagstaff and the Grand Canyon and New Mexico and over to CA, in fact we got there right after a rain and the desert was blooming. This is surely some country!!

Ginny

I haven'read the book yet but will read it. I am learning about Native American Indian art. We have quite a collection of it at the Birmingham Museum of Art where I am training as a docent. I will be doing tours on this next year along with the other art in the museum. We have a wonderful program for children from Kindergarten up called "On the Moccasin Path". The kids love it!! I like observing these tours as I am learning so much about Native American Indian Art.

By the way we have had a discussion on what to call them. The head of our education department has been communticating with different peoples ( I almost said tribes and we are forbidden by the curator of the collection to call them tribes)by email, to find out what they prefer to be called. Interestingly enough it is not Native American. If they are called this they want Indians added. So we have decided to call them Native American Indians.

Well this is a digresson but I am interested that we happened to be reading this book just at the time that I am doing so much study on Native American Indian Art.

Oh we do have Kachinas in our collection along with beautiful moccasins, blankets, etc. Oh yes lots of bowls too.

Joan

Ginny the winner of the laugh of the week. Or maybe the best of puns. Very good Ginny.

Isn't life serendipity? Ginny goes to the post office and finds Indian stamps. I find Sunset with a spread. Then I go to pick up my grandson at day care and find out Fort Carson is going to host a Pow Wow. Then Joan tells about "On the Moccasin Path", oh Joan what a wonderful job you have. Yep life is good!

I have had more fun watching Ginny get into the Indian way. I did the very same thing. Thats why I loved this book so much, It opened new doors for me and made the world grow bigger. I really believe thats what books should do, help you grow no matter what age.

Love, Bunny

I am following along with this discussion interestedly, contributing nothing I'm afraid because it's been several years since I read the book. Having read all the Joe Chee-Jim Leaphorn books, they tend to run together in what passes for my brain! Just picked up Hillerman's latest at the library... have any of you read it yet? First Eagle, I believe it's called. [It's in the living room and I'm too lazy to go check!]

Marilyn

I am enjoying the discussion and see that people are writing in everyday. Hope I can keep up. Speaking of Indian connections I live in Hopkinsville, KY. Just moved here and we have a yearly trail of tears gathering. I agree that books expand one's vision of the world and it seems when you are involved with a book those ideas seem to collide with your world or at least are magnified. Now from one of the new members I have learned that Leaphorn is a reocurring character? I am disappointed a little with Hillerman's sketch of Leaphorn he remains such a mystery. Do all his books read this way? Leaphorn doesn't have much history. Who is he? The other characters also. Would we learn more about him from other books? Signing off for now. Maybe Jeryn could answer or anyone else that knows. Marilyn

I am very interested in the Native American culture also. There is so little available on the Wisconsin Indians. Toward the end of my teaching career, a state mandate was put into place that the Wisconsin INdian be studied in several grades. The grade I was teaching was one of the grades. We had to scrounge for materials, but I am glad I was part of the whole thing. They had a beautiful religion (which was staken from the chldren at the boarding schools). Language, customs, etc. etc. were squashed--I could ge on a soapbox about this, THat`s all I will say for now.

Marilyn, tell us more about the Trail of Tears gathering. I would be very interested--

I havent read the book yet , but i love indian folklore. We all know what our forebears did to them. Yes,it was called progress and all over the world peoples progressed! Actually it should have been called greed and intolerance and indifference. The people with money just seem to find a way to get more and dont care who they roll over to get it. I guess there were many reasons why they were treated as they were,and it was probably inevitable. well im getting worked up so ill sign off for now have to read the book!

JOE Leaphorn and JIM Chee [Now I got it right!] are recurring characters throughout Hillerman's mysteries about the Southwest. I think Leaphorn has been trying to retire, maybe did retire, in one of the more recent mysteries and Chee is perhaps becoming the main police representative. Chee is intelligent and well-intentioned but not so deep as Leaphorn who keeps a low profile but always ends up outsmarting his superiors at the conclusion! Both, of course, are Navajo Indians. Through most of the books, Leaphorn supervises Chee. Well, Hillerman fans, does that sum it up adequately? Don't want to give too much away... <BG>

Good Morning Marilyn, Oh yes Mr Hillerman brings Leaphorn into the world and you learn more and more of him. We also meet another character named Chee who is even more Indian than Leaphorn. I choose this book because it was the first in the Leaphorn stories and we had to start somewhere! I must say that this book is a stepping stone to better and better books. Please try another and see what you think.

May if you read my post I got on a soapbox too. Sometimes it feels good to just vent. What grade did you teach? With the computor you can go to all the Native American sights and do a lot of learning. I'm sorry I don't know more about the culture of the Native American of the east. A good time for me to learn. Maybe you could give me a title of a book to read?

Hi Rich, get busy with the book Pal. Its not long only 166 pages, you can knock it off in a night or so. Then come back and tell us what you think! We need a good Irish opinion. My grandson as rewarded me with a cold and temp of 102 so I'm going back to bed, feel sorry for myself, take two pills, and read.

Bunny

Hello everyone: I'm enjoying the comments about Indian lore and culture,although I am not a big fan of Hillerman .I could never decide if he was trying to write mystery (primarily) or history (primarily).Somehow I felt that he invaded the realm of Carlos Castenada,with much of his "spiritual" references.I am an ardent admirerer of Northwest Indian Art and Culture and have devoted a considerable amount of time both exploring that region and delving into the myths and legends of the Native People.

Regarding the earlier posts about "inferiority complex",I would suggest that the term is archaic and has now been replaced by the buzzword "low self esteem".It's my opinion,that inferiority/low self esteem,is the result of not having any confidence in your own abilty to make decisions. I think I have digressed too much from the discussion at hand regarding the book.

Marilyn

Hi Ed, good to hear your comments. Would like to hear more about why you are not a big fan of the Hillerman books.

Bunny, now you take care of yourself! 102 fever is nothing to fool around with, good grief!! I hope you are better today!

Also did you see Eileen wrote you about the four words in the Halloween discussion?? I think she is right!

Since there's a lot of interest in Indian affairs here, I wonder if we ought not to get up a group for a discussion and read of something on Indian history??? For instance, if you've not read Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee, we could start with one of the chapters and then move to one of the new books: say, the Indian's new book on Custer and what really happened? I know our Harold is a docent at a frontier site and he's very up on Indian happenings too. What do you think??

Ginny

Hi Ginny, Thanks for the caring! I had a flu shot but this was baby germs and any grandmother can tell what they are, LETHAL, cause they are so pure. Baby germs ahhhhhhhhh! Yes I saw Eileen's answer to the four words. What a smart lady! I think shes right. I"m ready to give her the a halo for the smart angel of the week. A table discussion for Native Americans? Would that be on going or a one time thing?

Hello Ed, So nice to see you here and joining in. I have a few questions I wish you'd help me with. I have been thinking very hard on your statement about Hillerman impinging on Castenada. I think Castenada writes of the Mexico Indians, the Yaqui Indians, he deals in sorcery, peyote, and the devil weed. Hillerman deals with the Navajo nation and the insights to that culture. I know you can't mean a mystery can't have a historical background, Gee even Sherlock took us to Utah and the Mormans. I know you don't mean only one writer can write about the Southwest in mystery form cause then we wouldn't have James Doss, Jake Page, or Aimee Thurlo. So now I know what you don't mean please help me know what you do mean. My poor old head is spinning!

Bunny

Hello:To Bunny: I was trying to either compare and/or contrast the use of the spirit world in the writings of both Hillerman & Castenada.Does the spirit world enter their writings through the use of peyote or some other "sacred mushroom",and how does the literary spirit world impinge on either our reality or the author"s reality? Is the Navajo culture and beliefs necessary for the solution of the mystery or the solving of the crime?This could be an interesting discussion about reality and perception and perhaps we could continue this exploration in the Book Nook Chat Room at some mutually agreeable time..all are invited.

To Marilyn:I just couldn't seem to get very interested in Hillerman's books,although I'm sure that he has done more to bring Navajo culture to more people than any non-fiction book on the subject.

Bunny, thanks for the halo! I'm sure I've read a Hillerman book, maybe even this one but I recently, ruthlessly, cleaned out my paperbacks - must have tossed it. All the comments about the book bring back a tantalizing familiarity with the story - but not enough remembered to make a comment! I've also seen a movie on TV that seemed to follow a similar story - the old memory ain't what it used to be.

Eileen Megan

Greetings all. Just had to jump in here as the drug culture of the 60's and 70's gets a shot in the arm. References to Carlos Castenada, and his romance with the Native Americans was more of a search for a mystical answer to the worlds evils, if not those in his own soul. His writing parallel those in the same time frame; Baba Ram Das and of course Dr.Timothy Leary. Their use of drugs was not to be part of a culture or heritage, but one of cultural decay. We all remember tune in, turn on, drop out. The writings in Hillerman's mysteries are surely meant to exposure you to a culture based on gods, and spirits (Kachinas) portrayed by men, any use of natural herbs and medicines are to enhance there ability to cross a veil(they believe as real) and be more god like, not to achive personal power or to decieve the youth the Kachinas are meant to counsel. I would also remind you the drug theme is that of a 70's cultish commune on the resevation land and is not looked at with approval by any means. I also think the idea of a stake out at the Zuni ceremonies for a drug drop, just shows how the F.B.I. is portrayed as another represive arm of the govenment and how they disturb the nature of life for the Native American. Even the church has murals of the the story acted out, and are a major insight to Leaphorn. Can you imagine such murals in your local church???

Now to the real thing I wanted to bring up, is this a scarey book or what??? Mystery or horror novel if you are a Native American i'm sure you didnt sleep well if you read this. Kachinas you only see if you are meant to die. A ritual beheading, stalked in a rugged country that is even more hostile than your attacker. Leaphorn drugged and gives his gun to a runaway with instructions to kill.. I wonder if anyone has thought could you be driven to run, survive (kill a deer), and lose your life over what are considered by most to be silly superstitions, and remeber these characters are not adults they are youth just coming of age.. I find this truly horrifying and think most of us take for granted what is being shown by this first book, man, boy, nature, and the soul all in total conflict. And the guy in the middle, Leaphorn and even he can't really resolve it but just follow along as nature has its way with all.

Yes and i'm well again too, damn mutant baby germs, not even vamp's are safe....

I finally finished the book last night and probably don't have any insights that haven't already been highlighted but never let that stop me in the past.

I found the constrast between the Navajo and the Zuñi Indians very interesting, especially the beliefs about after-life. It also appears from the story that the two tribes, while totally separate, live close together and get along fairly well. The Navajo are described as loners while the Zuñi live in communities. I wondered how Leaphorn, a Navajo, had all of the knowledge about the myths and legends of the Zuñi.

I certainly did not solve the mystery until I read the resolution at the end of the book. I am still wondering why the George Bowlegs Father was killed? While the concept of the Zuñi dealing with anyone violating their religion, such as the killer did, is understandable, I felt it was very unrealistic that they could deal with the killer in the manner they did immediately following the killing of George Bowlegs.

With all of the jurisdictional problems as expressed in this book, working in law enforcement in that area must really be hard.

This was the first one of Tony Hillerman's books that I have read, that I recall, but feel that I would read more in the future as he is an interesting author.

Larry

Ya-Ta-Hey, Everybody!! Larry!! So good to see you in here, and hi rvamp!

I remember when we crossed the....jeepers, I want to say Navaho Reservation? ON the way to the Grand Canyon, that you enter their jusisdiction, and leave behind all else? And one of the signs posted said no cameras? I didn't have a clue why and worried vaguely the entire time if they were going to come GET me as I sure did have a camera, and I actually took a picture, but not there, of a bread making oven on another site. Had not seen anything like it.

There does seem to be a lot of rivalry between tribes, and I have no doubt it's true, as Hillerman seems to get lots of awards from the Indian community.

I got a little confused on the kachina thing. In one place he says that their "attitude toward humans is friendly, fatherly. They bring blessings. They appear as rain clouds." (p. 145). So I guess it's just the appearance of the special ones, like on page 57, that "they're invisible. But you can see them if you're about to die."

Lots of cultures have this angel of death sightings? I seem to remember howling winds are supposed to fortell a death and the thing about a bird hitting the window and dying is supposed to do the same? Are there any others you may have heard of?

Ginny

Good Morning to all, Its so wonderful to see you here Larry. I'm so glad to know you are willing to try another Hillerman book. You have to trust me that they get better. Good question Larry, why did Shorty Bowlegs have to die? Another question did you feel the tension when Joe and Susanne were hiding in the rocks? I don't think we ever find out what happens to Ted Isaac, do we?

Ya-ta-hey back at you. I think that a kachina can hold good and evil. Just like the Clown kachina is a teacher of what pride can do to people. The coyote a sly and tricky kachina. So that would make me believe that each kachina has its own lesson to teach. Great point on the angel of death thing. That was really cool Ginny, I have heard about birds and some sounds that call you to the great beyond.

I want to wish all of you the happest of Thanksgivings, may you all have love,and joy.

Bunny .

On Nov 22nd in message #40 Giny wrote the following"

Since there's a lot of interest in Indian affairs here, I wonder if we ought not to get up a group for a discussion and read of something on Indian history??? For instance, if you've not read Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee, we could start with one of the chapters and then move to one of the new books: say, the Indian's new book on Custer and what really happened? I know our Harold is a docent at a frontier site and he's very up on Indian happenings too. What do you think??

Ginny is rignt, "there is a lot of interest in Indian affairs," not only here but everywhere. At the Institute of Texan Cultures where I do volunteer work as a Docent, the Indian exhibit is by far the most popular of all the 30+ ethnic exhibits. I certainly encourge and support Ginny's suggestion for a book discussion on the subject. I think it would receive support from many in the history section.

Also I think the idea of several (hopefully short) books on different phases of Indian history would be appropriate. An early phase candidate is the 120 page Journal of Cabeza de Vaca, the Spanish Conquistidor who was ship wrecked on the Texas coast in 1526. It was 10 years before he and 3 other survivors made their way down the Texas Coast, up the Rio Grand accross Texas, into New Mexico and Mexico finally in 1536 rescued by a Spanish party hunting Indian slaves in Northwest Mexico. His short writing is almost entirely devoted to material on the many simple gathering cultures with whom the party interfaced. Several inexpensive paperback translations are available. It describes cultures very different from the 18 & 19th century sterotype. At least Cabeza de Vaca was successful in saving his Indian escort from enslavement by the rescuers.

If this discussion germinates, I will participate. (I am cross posting this message on the "History" board and perhaps further discussion and comment on the suggested Indian history discussion would be more appropriate there.)

Regards to the participants in this "Dance Hall of the Dead" discussion. After reading the previous posts, it seems an interesting and provocative book for discussion.

Harold

Bunny, At the end of the book when Leaphorn broke the relic when he was with Ted Isaac it appeared that the secret of the deception would remain and that Ted Isaac would be able to gain fame from the dig. Raises an interesting ethical question in my mind.

Larry

"I Heard the Owl Call My Name" by Margaret Craven was an excellent book that came out maybe 10 years ago. In it a young Catholic vicar is sent to a Pacific Northwest Indian village and comes to know and understand them; he hears the owl and it is a sign that he will die.

My understanding many years ago was that the kachinas were private, not for 'outsiders', so I wonder if the ones sold commercially now are considered by the Indians as just representational but not containing the true 'spirit'.

I am enjoying reading all your comments and perceptions.

I think Harold's suggestion is a great one, have never HEARD of the book he's talking about, and I think the whole idea is a winner. Let's also have a show of hands on the Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee which we could read a chapter or two of together (book is too big for a club, I fear) after we do the one Harold mentioned??

Ginny

Loma, I thought I HEARD THE OWL CALL MY NAME was just such a beautiful book. I am going to read it again.

A discussion on the early Indians sounds good.

Harold, I haven`t heard of the book you referred to, but it sounds very worthwhile.

Ginny, I have had a hard time getting into BURY MY HEART.... but a discssion here will certainly help.



Happy Thanksgiving to all the SeniorNetters!!

O.K. so let me get this thing right! We are to read this book. Is it called "Journal of Cabeza de Vaca"? Then we go to the history table to talk about it? Have I got it right? So are you saying this will be an on going thing?

Oh Larry you are so right about ethical! You know I never liked Ted from the begining. Do you think the Indian beliefs brought an end to this tale? Ed was asking about that. Oh yes does Joe ever tell? Sort of a tiger and the lady thing huh?

Bunny

I ended the book feeling that Hillerman wanted to leave several issues unresolved and sort of mystic and I felt that he succeeded.

Larry

It looks like a History selection to me, and an Indian Studies forum for sure, an ongoing thing!! Just SEE, Bunny, what you did??

Great, May, let's go for it!! And tomorrow is a very propitious time to remember the American Indian and to be chatting about starting a serious study of Indian Literature! YAY!!

And.....

YA TA HEY!! Have a Very Happy Thanksgiving! ---Ginny

Gee Larry I felt the same as you. The next book kinda helps you to understand Joe more and why he does what he does. I just know this one book opened up so much for me. By the looks of it maybe to others too. Thanks Larry.

Bunny

Happy Thanksgiving to All: I'm enjoying the comments and I think that an Indian Studies forum would be great (As suggested by Ginny).As I've said before ,I have a great interest in the Northwest Native Americans,In fact,right now there is a controversy going on in Neah Bay, Washington regarding the local tribe who wants to have a whale hunt (as their ancestors did-using harpoons) and the resistance of some environmentalists,who are protesting the killing of a whale.Also,the Canadian High Court has ruled in favor of the Gitkisan Tribe who have laid claim to much of British Columbia (including Vancouver)..this has caused much friction in B.C.( Ishould mention that I am an honorary member of the tribe having given them some financial support in their struggle).Personally,I am intrigued by the legends and myths of the N.W. tribes,especially the legend of the Raven and the Salmon Woman.>>>NYC BOOKIES ALERT>>> The Musuem of Natural History on the Upper West Side in NYC has a fabulous collection of Indian artifacts and history..well worth a visit if you can squeeze it in.ALSO>The Museum Of the American Indian (part of the Smithsonian)in lower Manhattan.PLUS..two great museums in the Northwest,The museum in Victoria B.C. and the Museum of the University of British Columbia (UBC) in Vancouver, B.C.....Bunny,you created a monster (just joking).

Happy Thanksgiving Ed, Yes your right I did!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry this is so late. For my Thanksgiving card to everyone click on Happy Thanksgiving.

Joan

Ed: thanks for that,I hope you can come, too, to NYC!! I didn't know about all those Indian exhibits! The last time I was in those muesums, they had really jazzed the museums up, wonderful exhibits!!

Joan, thanks so much for that pretty card and those pretty grandchildren!! I know they are proud of their Grandmama, as the French would say, for being so smart!

Yes, I think our Bunny has multiplied our Books folders!!

Do we have anyone who would like to lead the Indian Discussion? In January, I'd think?? Maybe January 15?? Give us time to get the book.And figure out how to get a Chapter of Bury My Heart. I didn't know Little Big Man was based on the book, the book is HUGE and is of many many different tales, but let's do a selected reading, if we can find it....

Ginny

Ginny: Little Big Man was not based on the book, but on the incident of Wounded Knee massacre. Sorry I was not clearer. As to why the murder of George Bowlegs, the killer was at the hogan, trying to find the artifact, and George got in his way. I think this crime was Hillerman's way to make points about the killer's obession, the tightness of the family bond (even when the parent is disfunctional) and the stoicism and resiliance of the young Navajo boy.

I am confused about Navajo" kachinas". In another Hillerman book the point is made that the Navajo depictions of their gods are done in colored sand pictures, and that the colored sand is always dispersed at the end of the ritual. There is a deep division between Navajo and Zuni, with the Navajo position being sort of like the proscription of "idols" in the Ten Commandments. Was I wrong about this?

Ginny ..ref post #60...i havent the time to look up past messages...what book are u referring to for jan15? please note it again thanks Rich

Jackie, I came away from this book believing that the kachina was a Zuni belief and not a Navajo one. It appeared that the Navajo attended the annual event where the kachina masks were used but primarily as guests. I haven't researched this and may well be wrong.

Larry

Rich: here is the book, and am very excited to reveal that LJ has told me that Harold will lead that discussion, and Harold is a docent at a frontier site, this will be a wonderful chance for us all to really have a great experience:

"The Account: Alvar Nunez Cabeza de Vaca's Relacion," An Annotated Translation by Martin A. Favata and Jose B. Fernandez, ISBN 1-55885-060-0,

I have written our B&N site to ask why they don't carry it in our Bookstore.

Ginny

Ahhh!!!!!! What happened? I posted twice yesterday and its not there! Did something go wrong? Well I guess I'll have to do it again.

Bunny

Well as I was saying! In the Southwest there are many Indian cultures, there are the Navajo, Hopi, Zuni,Tiwa, Laguna and they are known as the Pueblo People. They all hold the kachina as a spirit essence of everything in the real world. This is not a new innovation the Spanish wrote of the "hideous images" in 1500. The driving force was the need for water. The rain ritual was elaborated, and joined to a planting ritual. Neighbors added further to compound the ceremonies. Of course it becomes more complex but this is just a brief outline. They all make the kachina, but the Zuni and the Hopi are best known with the Navajo coming in a close third. Maybe by now the Navajo is second to the Hopi.

Bunny

Bunny: There was a crash, and everybody, me included lost all. I've taken the strange precaution if I ever do a long and involved post with lots of authors to copy it and save it, on Clipmate, as you never know when you'll need it again.

Now our little boy is from the Zia Pueblo, it's interesting to read that, Bunny. I did not know that the Navajos were considered Pueblos! Will learn a great deal from our upcoming Indian discussion, so glad to have it here!!

Ginny

Ginny in the early years they wern't. Today they are lumped in with the others. I think in the beginning they were farmers and hunters and traders. I know they traded with the California Indians. There was a trail going down to the sea.

I have a calendar of the major Hopi ceremonies. Is there someway I can show it? I could type it all out, but lazy!

Bunny

Bunny - If you can scan the calendar and email it to one of us who has a home page we can create a link so everyone can see it.

Mail it to me by snail mail, Bunny , and I'll scan it for you.

Ginny

Thanks Ginny an email is on its way. Its nice to be a twin!

May I tell you of a very dear book? Its "Folktales of the Native American" by Dee Brown. The author of "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee" It is so sweet I think most would just love it.

Bunny

Well, there's good news and bad news, which would you like first??

The bad news is that our Bunny sent me a delightful calendar of Indian festivals but my new idiotproof scanner just made an idiot out of me, and my state of the art scanner's card is not attached, and to make a long story short, I can't put it up here. It's a nice circle design with lots of OCR and I think that's the problem: it's beyond the scope of my little scanner.

If you drop me a line, when I get back from the NYC Trip I'll mail you a copy of it, have those all ready.

The good news is that our Bunny sent her photo and I've put it up in the heading, and SHE is just gorgeous!!! And looks the perfect advertisement for our folder!!

Now, Bunny, is that your curing house?? We have one somewhat like it, it was originally for either smoking or storing, but it's now a chicken house.

Where was that taken, do tell??

Ginny

Gee Ginny sorry it wouldn't scan for you. I know it wasn't you and your no idiot. Well maybe just a little near sighted. Last Aug. the family went on a day trip to a place called Tin Cup in the high country and I found this old cabin and was playing in it when the Vamp said," mom come to the door", there he was with his camera and you know the rest. We have lots of old mining towns and ghost towns that are just to much fun. Have a very wonderful time in the big apple, gee I sure wish I were making the trip, ah well some other time. Oh Ginny the book, the House at the Edge of the Forest, where did you say I can get it? I am now the proud owner of The Account.

Bunny

Bunny, how neat. My oldest son and I rode up once on a trip to the Grand Canyon and Arizona and NM etc, to a ghost town way up in the mountains, and it was like an old comedy: one lane roads, cars coming the other way, stones falling off down the mountain to the right!!

Wow, never again, and there were so many tourists that it had sprung gift shops.

Congratulations on your ACCOUNT!! I fear the book is not there! It's The Inn at the Edge of the World by Alice Thomas Ellis, I think, anyway, it's British.

A Common Reader Bookstore carries it.

Ginny

dAHH, Ginny where do I find a Common Readers Bookstore???

Bunny

Bunny, I am so glad you asked that!! I had forgotten where I saw that neat bookstack, and there it is!!

A Common Reader This is not their main page, but I love the bookstack!! Tell them you want their catalogue, it's to die for.

Ginny

My dear Ginny, DONE! Bunny

It's the 15th and no new messages does thismean this bookis all done i missed this one but i read "the Fallen Man" by hillerman and it falls in the same catagoryas dancehall but leaphorn is further along in life as is jim Cree good book when do we start the "Account" and how will we attack it. iver already started

Rich, I guess we're to start the Counterfeit Christmas tomorrow, but you can post your thoughts here any time. I think you made an interesting point about the aging of Leaphorn, and I hope to read more Hillerman books as I did enjoy this one, and learned something, too.

If you would like to make more comments on Hillerman, please do, will keep this folder open for any more thoughts!

Ginny

Rich: The Account of Cabeza de Vaca's journey from ship wreck to Mexico is in the History discussion, and that begins next year. Have you read Hillerman's newest book? It is out in hard cover, but I don't buy them until the paperbacks come out.

OOPS!! Sorry, Rich, a little strung out from meeting so many neato Books people at our Gathering. Thanks, Jackie!

The Counterfeit Christmas discussion is now open, hope you'll look in if you were able to find the book!

Counterfeit Christmas

Ginny

Welcome back, Ginny. We can hardly wait for a report on the fabulous weekend in NY. Please, rest a while first. We want you at full power. From what I've heard, this was no "lost weekend", but one full of treasure and discovery.

Dear Rich, Look down to the history and click in, it's super. I've been there and gone to the places he talks about. Its great fun and guess what! You can shop! Oh Oh! As you know, Being sick you would think I would get to read. Oh no not with this stuff,I told you baby germ were the evil of man. So have you started the book? I don't think we start this table till the last of Jan. Till then read, read, read. Hi Ginny glad to see your home safe and I'm just sure it was wonderful. When do we get to hear all about the Travels of Ginny? Soon I hope. Love Bunny

Hey, Guys, how nice of you all to ask, soon, soon. Meanwhile, in the Book Groups Trip to NYC we're posting a photo a day and then retiring them to the Book Groups Trip Album right under it so do go and you can see photos of all who went.

Once you get used to the pace of NYC, it's hard to stop? Kind of like getting all revved up for the big race and then sort of running in place for a week afterwards! hahahahahaha

So many to thank!

Ginny