I'm so glad we're going to read this one, Sarah. Allende is a truly gifted writer. My book's on the way. Putting off reading it will be hard.

So I put my reserve in at the library and I am looking forward to joining you all in this discussion. I remember reading House of the Spirits.

I must confess I'm already reading this book (I'll happily reread it for our June discussion). It is a wonderful book - easy to read, but deep, lyrical, with great characters and great descriptions of Chile before 1850 (haven't reached the part about California yet although it's just around the corner). I truly hope many of you will join us on June 1.

Oh dear! This invitation is so tempting, ladies. I saw her on a talk show and she was discussing her book. It piqued my interest, but I am into Pres. Powers, Canterbury and the Orchid Thief. I must hustle to get them finished and then --per chance I will be able to visit with you.. OOps also Apple of my Eye. Ah June 1st, I can do that!

Andrea, It will be worth adding. Allende is quite the storyteller and her prose affects me in ways I find hard to explain. Or maybe you already have read her and know this.

Hmmm this does sound good-- I was beginning to dispair with some of our reading here lately but this may be my saving grace-- need to go get this book me thinks.

Thanks Sarah love all the clickables - they really make a book so much more meaningful for me...

I have Daughter of Fortune on the "reserve" list. I am only the 4th one. So I am in hopes that everybody reads in a hurry. Barbara, whatever do you mean? You have contributed SO much to Canterbury Tales, I thought you were enjoying yourself.

Well I WAS 119 on the reserve list of 142 so I must be motivated if I actually purchased this book today and it was 25 bucks- so I'll have a lot invested in this discussion

Alf I have mixed feelings about Chaucer, in some ways Canterbury is bringing me too close to issues that make me slightly crazy. I've been contributing some the the Brokaw book but I feel like an interloper having been born in '33 and the other books have just not grabbed me. I was going to, at the last minute, get the President thing and read it over the weekend but would you belive there is not a copy to be had in all of Austin, I was not going to send off for it.. and so this sounds really so good to me, a book that sounds like you can get your teeth into it and Sarah is a great discussion leader.

Barbara: Ever so eloquent, ever so wordly! Just imagine that,though, 600 years, Barb!! Chaucer can still elicit that kind of reaction from you. Isn't that enough to make you "hang in there" and bleed with the rest of us? I am impressed if he can still "make you crazy."

Hey!! Hey, you two over there, what are you doing? Andrea's talking to Barb trying to get her to go spend time over in the Chaucer discussion! Quick, YiLi Lin, stand in front of the exit---I loved your post, by the way----this book better measure up to your investment, or else!

Well, me, too, in several ways. That's more than I've spent for a book in a while, too. And, like Barb, I'm so ready for a good book and a good discussion. The G-Generation has worn me to a frazzle and inspired visits to other forums on the internet. One that Charlie mentioned before (last fall? and wasn't it Charlie?), Salon.com, I finally spent some time checking out. Wow. What a broad selection of interesting subjects, books and otherwise. Very different from SeniorNet---with pluses and minuses. More sophisticated in some ways but less sophisticated organization. My first impression, anyway. What I am certain about is that I have to be more deliberate in selecting books/discussions to suit me. Allende is definitely an author I like and the story line sounds wonderful. Holding off beginning to read has been so hard!

YILiLn - I'm sorry you had to spend so much for the book. You must have got it at an undiscounted bookstore. It is now available (available is a relative term) in a paper edition through QPB. I ordered it about three weeks ago, but still have not received it.

AAGGGH if it were in paper and not on the 30% discount list at Border's. but read Chapter 1 last night- and believe this is one of the better 25 dollar investments i've made (except of course for 25 lotto tickets!). So far it is one of the books that I want to savor and limit myself to one chapter at a time. Can't wait for the games to begin.

.......and my book arrived today - I love books with maps. Things are falling into place.

Okay Sarah- nominate me the poster woman for this discussion- this book is sooooooooo good and will generate -I am sure- a super discussion. Glad I purchased my own volume, its filled with underlines and pencil notations.

Sarah, I think, is away on vacation, but will be back for Jun 1. I just started this today. I am reminded already of the talk we had about earliest memories in Joan Pearson's Portrait of the Artist discussion. Some people have them and some don't - as Allende seems to indicate - it's a cultivated talent. How far back can you remember?

Great question, I don't think this is the earliest but I have two clear and distinct early childhood memories, one I was sitting in a high chair at the kitchen table with other family member's present and I recall picking up a bowl in my hands and finishing PEA SOUP, the kind mother's made in those days- i clearly recall disliking pea soup and having this letdown feeling how no one understood the gesture of drinking this bowl of horrid green stuff. A second early memory I have is taking a pencil and drawing a child's version of a jar of bosco on the crib i was "caged" in. Years later when the crib was taken out for a "baby's" extended visit I saw the drawing and convinced my mother to not wash it off. Hmm are these the stuff of great novels?

I distinctly remember being under a table of some sort, crawling...looking at my father leaving and my mother saying goodbye...going to work I think. That's it. Just a snap shot - but I often wonder what else of this scene I have forgotten. By itself it is meaningless. But it has stayed with me and has no apparrent meaning in and of itself. What forgotten event came before - or what happened just after?

Not the stuff of great novels? Who knows. This reminds me of the rabbinical method of probing the layers of meaning in the bible which I have read about in preparation for reading another book. Anita Diamant uses it to write The Red Tent. The stories in the Bible are snapshots - the gulf in between these pictures is where Diamant writes her story of Dinah.

The imagination is a wonderful thing and it often takes little to set it stirring. I have an old snapshot that I picked up years ago at a flea market that shows some kind of colonial scene (i imagine). It's a formal picture of about a dozen people lined up on a stone outside staircase in some tropical (again, i imagine) climate. I always think Panama. Ten gentlemen with facial hair of the Victorian era. I see a bag like a Doctor's kit. There are two Chinese men right out of The Good Earth in those skull type caps - laborers or servants of some sort. Two dogs, one little pug type dog in the lap of one of the men and another only slightly larger dog at the bottom of the stairs. The dogs and the Chinese men stare straight into the camera - the Chinese with looks that can only be, pardon me, described as "inscrutable.". Most, but not all of the other men stare off as if directed by the photographer in other directions. The building stuccoed and the one visible side of the rather steep staircase stained with what could be mold or algae. All of the men are hatless (except the Chinese) although a number of them hold hats in their laps or by their sides. There are at least three potted plants along the left side of the staircase - as if more vegetation were needed amongst the lush, what would be greenery, if this were not a sepia toned picture. I often think of the myriad stories this picture could be "forced" to tell. Of what event this picture was meant to celebrate.

My earliest memory is an unsolved mystery---with a pinch of Twilight Zone thrown in. Does anyone remember about 10-15 years ago when that baby girl fell down a backyard pipe (baby Jessica?) and was rescued a day and a half later? West Texas, I think, with news media giving updates every hour, as I remember. Well, that's similar to my earliest memory---crawling toward, then looking down this hole, watching my bottle fall in, then my reaching and falling in---then crying and crying. When I told my mother about this memory some 20 years ago, she had to think a while and then said that, in fact, this had happened to another baby when I was very, very little---or so she thought. She thought I might have heard others talking of it. She said the nation was transfixed, that everyone listened to radio updates and that the baby was not rescued in time. Some time after I talked to my mother about it, I did some research and found out (Twilight Zone music, please) that the baby stuck in the well died the year before I was born.

A more benign early memory is of a favorite book when I was 2. A very happy story of children with a huge red and blue beach ball.

Charlie, I love how you described every last detail of that old picture. Old houses have a similar affect on me. I can get lost in the details, imagining lives there 100, 200 years ago. Sounds on wooden floors, the great space of high ceilings, intricate details in moldings and banisters, fireplaces, wallpaper.

Betty - I know what you mean. When I was in my photography phase, I loved to find old buildings, old houses, old mills - fascinating. Once I drove all the way up some 'blue highway' up into Vermont, up the Piscataqua mountain i believe and the road seemed to end and there was an old really dilapidated house - dilapidated as only houses and barns can be in Vermont and there were the remains of an old upright piano up on the second floor. I could hear that baby singing to me...

Great story, by the way Betty. Those things make you wonder...

Betty, I DO remember that little girl (Jessica) falling into the pipe and the long, agnonizing wait for her rescue. And even longer ago the other little girl who also fell into an open well or something and I know it was long ago because we followed it on the radio. I thought I'd never forget a single detail of that episode but, alas, I don't even remember the name now. That must have been in the late 40's or early 50's. How strange your "recollection" of that event must seem to you.

When I was in my "blue highway" phase, I dragged my 9 year old son through the Arkansas mountains on all the back roads, determined to eat only at diners, stopping at every roadside quilt and crafts table in front yards and spending the night in "quaint" river cabins without telephones. Finding the oldest houses was our all-day entertainment. The destination was Missouri's Osark mountains. He's late 20's now and declares that was his favorite trip with me. We did find the best pear cobbler at the shabbiest mountain diner and a wonderful quilt that is still a treasure.

Diners and roadside-card table-tag sales: Sometimes I wonder if that's all the research one needs to write a novel. THere's a million stories there. In my early Boston years after college I used to sit at a 24-hour Hayes-Bickford's on Huntington Avenue just listening. It was like a stream of consciousness audio tape of Joyce a la Beckett.

Your image of a pre-this lifetime experience is not uncommon. What is unique is your holding on to the memory into adulthood. It is said that infants clearly remember past experiences of themselves and others- saw that piece on Shirley McClaine last night and am thinking I might want to read one of her books.

I'm into Part Two of this book. She can flat out write. This book is so accessible...a terriffic storyteller.

Agree, agree, Charlie. I meant to get into the book slowly and take my time. No can do. I remember now how musical her prose is. Why do the long, long names that are never shortened make me think of music?

How sensual her writing, even beyond the lovingly rendered sexual scenes.

Ok, I'll wait to say more.

Had the good fortune to spend 5 hours at the vehicle's dealer service center yesterday and spent most of it reading so I'm going to start the second part over the weekend. So glad I purchased this book and can make notes in the margins.

This is one of the most delicious books I have read in a long long time! I love the way Ms. Allende peaks our curiosity using events to discribe scenes that are only fully explained later.

I too had a wait YiLi Lin only it was for 2.5 hours and it was for the police to show up - ugh - One of the condos that I've listed with an out-of-state seller was broken into and damaged. Looked like little kids writing on the walls, a few doors damaged and the kitchen counters marked with it looked like a penknife. Before insurance companies pay off they need a police report and moi had the priviledge of waiting for the really nice young officer to show up, look and write up his report. Of course this is one of the lower priced listings. The lower the price always, the more work that we are not compensated for... at least I had a good read while waiting.

Walking with books on head-- and as many a girl still said in the 50s she went to collage for her MRS.

The books upon the head and the metal rod strapped to Eliza's backbone reminded me of Wailliam Faulkners biography wherein it was claimed that he was forced to wear some sort of back brace to imrpove on his posture. I guess I should count myself lucky that, other than the occassional "sit up straight" I was allowed to slouch as need be! Molding the body and the mind...

Hmm I remember having to walk with a broomstick horizontal across my shoulder blades- i do it voluntarily know and then, my son - the personal trainer- suggests i do the RIGHT thing and strengthen my muscles by working out- but pshaw......

Can't wait for some male viewpoint on this novel- especially some of the observations on marriage and techniques for "getting a man". During our stresstime I walk around with books under my nose and just finished Ellen Foster by Kaye Gibbons and even got the video from the library, for once I understand why the video was a TAD different from the novel.

YiLi, Between books written with Allende's depth, I fall back into not knowing what's missing. While reading "good" books by other men and women, I'm sometimes aware of what is wrong (assumptions, myths, isms) but I altogether lose knowing what could be included but is not. Then I read someone like Toni Morrison or Allende and I see again.

I'm not talking about her skill as a writer---I like her stories but I don't know enough to judge her in relation to other writers. I'm talking about her knowledge of the world of women and, in that context, her knowledge of the world of men. Then I find myself wondering about all the choices as a writer she has to make---she still has to write a marketable book. It must be a balancing act. I wonder if it is anything like my experience of book discussions. If I were to write about everything I notice in the reading, I'd separate myself right out of the discussion, although finding a middle ground between never speaking up and noticing everything is exhausting.

Betty interesting how we all read books differently-- for me it isn't so much what I notice as it is a button that is hit and an aha about my own life that I see differently or with more depth and then of course for me in nearly every story is a bounty of symbolism that I glory in. Now this story has me glued-- the devise she uses to speak about what we do not know fully and then later in the book explain the events with great detail is like following a ball of string to the prize. Who ever translated this did a supurb job of making the sentences sing as though it was originally written in English. I think we are agreeing this book is a treat to read!

Oh, sure, Barbara, I have the aha's, too, and the "buttons" pushed. I especially like it when an author gives me words---I've known the thing but haven't had words for it.

One of the characters inDaughter of Fortune, Tao Ch'ien is Chinese. How odd that we follow the reading of The Good Earth with this book. There are some interesting parallels between the two books when Allende is recounting the early years of Tao Ch'ien in Hong Kong.

Then there's all the talk about bound feet ("golden lilies")- The Good Earth...Memoirs of a Geisha. There's a new book out, I believe called Bound.

I have a question about bound feet. Maybe you can help me remember if within anything we've read there was a reference to bound feet and a kind of dancing. Something somewhere made me instantly think of ballet and the sight of a ballet dancer on her toes with her feet being vertical extensions (not horizontal as regular walking feet) and with the lengths of ballet shoe ribbon wound around and around her legs. Could modern day ballet possibly be connected to the ancient Chinese custom of bound feet? Or if what the two have in common is a form of dance, wonder if these two things are each related to a third something. Does anyone remember a reference?

I vaguely remember something like that, Betty - not in one of the books we've read but in some outside reference brought up by a reader, maybe?

A short lesson on the practice form Syracuse University: Foot Binding

Thank you Charlie. That site provided an education in itself.

Charlie, that WAS interesting. I had no idea of the pain involved. The things people will do in the name of vanity - although in this case it was apparently imposed, not a voluntary thing.

What a great discussion - and it's not even June 1. I, like Yili and Betty and Barbara and Charlie, loved this book. I actually finished it a month ago - couldn't stop myself. I am looking forward to reading it again.

I think, contrary to one of your posts, that Allende wrote the book in English. She has lived in the San Francisco Bay Area for several years now, and I frequently hear her speak in English. Her story of the Calif. Gold Rush was spot on a great analogy to the current "gold rush" in the dot-com/Silicon Valley world.

Can't wait for June 1!

(Happy to be back - was away for a one week vacation and then a two week trianing course in Reno, Nevada. No, I was NOT learning to be a blackjack dealer!!)

Sarah

Quickie divorces????????

Hi, Sarah, welcome back. On the front flap of the bookcover, Margaret Sayers Peden is listed as the translator. I have a vague recollection of hearing Allende distinguish between what she writes in Spanish and what she writes in English---something about the stories flowing easier in Spanish or something. Wish I could remember more.

Has anyone finished the last page and flipped immediately to read the first page again? I just did and had the nicest surprise! It flows as if the first page is meant to go chronologically after the last page. As if the story of memory that begins at the beginning is happening just after the current events at the end.

Just as Barbara has commented, it was so interesting to watch Allende's choices of foretelling plot, but just enough to keep you reading for the details.

Rereading a book just after finishing it has always seemed impossible, like hard work. Not with this one, though, which I've already begun again with pleasure---reading slowly for what I might have missed and just for the pleasure of the words.

I'm just loooovvvving this book!!! Nearly finished so I'm looking forward to this circle of connection Betty. There seems to be as much about Tao Chi'en as Eliza and so I need to see what the connection is. Some how I bet they represent the Ying Yang of life. Brillant is the perfect word for this book!

Betty - didn't even catch the reference to the translator. Very interesting! And you've given me more reason to revel in the thought of rereading this wonderful book.

As I read, I was struck with the many parallels to today's world. I'm going to keep that in mind as I reread.

Hi Charlie and Barbara - great to hear from you.

I am only half way through this book and enjoying it immensely. I will not be back until I finish it up. Carry on. Have a safe weekends, all of you partyers.

HI, I'm Jo. Just got the book (borrowed!) and have 40+ pages under my belt. I hope to join your discussion! Be back soon!

Welcome JO. So happy to have you with us. We'll start the "official" discussion on June 1. In the meantime, read on!

Looking forward to our discussion when we get to the chapters on Tao, the telling of his apprenticeship and how it evolved is amazingly in synch with the personal histories of traditional healers i have known. in this book allende could just have easily created an indigenous traditional healer from the chilean culture, i find her reaching out to china evocative.

YiLi, I wonder if Allende has had good experiences with Chinese medicine in the San Francisco area where she lives---thus the choice to document some of the history.

oohh betty bet you're right. somehow i think of allende living in another century....

On the questions of Allende's writing language - from one of the links at the top of the page:
Q. Do you write in Spanish?

A. I can only write fiction in Spanish, because it is for me a very organic process that I can only do in my language. Fortunately I have excellent translators all over the world.

Q. Do you work closely with your translator? I notice that Margaret Sayers Peden has translated several of your books into English.

A. I don't work closely with her. She does a splendid job. I do not dream of correcting her! In other languages, however, I don't even know who translates my work. The publishers take care of that.

Tomorrow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(darn and i'll be out of town til saturday i bet there will be a hundred posts by then).

I was to start this book a couple of weeks back & hoped i could join you in discussions, but alas, i got hooked on another good book.Oh well i guess that is the fun of reading,the book is one of EDWARD RUTHERFURD 'SARUM',it's been around for quiet awhile, great story all the same.This weekend i'm starting Allende's book.Also trying to get hold of Mapp& Lucia.Happy reading.Estell.

Sarah where do we begin? This book is so full start us out pleeeeaase!

Well, it's 10:30 at night June 1st and I thought I'd come in and find a string of messages to respond to. Did we meet in another room and I didn't get the memo? Maybe we're waiting 'til Saturday for YiLi.

Ok, so I'll start. I think the whole book is a study of love, of racial hatred, of restrictions of women's lives in mid 1800s. There is also a wealth of external/internal material, e.g., Rose's external Victorian rules and her internal, secret baudy stories written to pay for Eliza's trousseau. The book is also a study of San Francisco's origins which go a long way in explaining present day San Francisco.

But back to Eliza's early life. Her development, thank goodness, is not just at the hands of Rose, not just the straight spine piano lessons or instructions on how to grant or withold favors to get from a husband what you need. Her (internal?) development with Mama Fresia is earthy, warm, filled with food, animals, loose clothing, freedom of movement (which she will experiment with further, later), adventures to forbidden places, like the town gathering, and most of all, I think, the physical warmth of Mama Fresia's arms.

To some extent, this is a comparison from Allende of British and South American culture, maybe even of raising children, but surely of raising girls.

The first few chapters are also a study of the differences among Jeremy, Rose and John. John, the adventurer, Jeremy the tight British, unfeeling stick-in-the-mud, Rose the dutiful daughter, sister who goes along with her British family's banishment and who is outwardly leading an unfulfilled life. Her only real "life" is her secret writing. She lets herself love Eliza, but only so far. The irony, of course, is that this half love allows Eliza the time away with Mama Fresia.

There is a romantic balance, of a sort, that is explained later in the book (for those not yet through reading) about Eliza's Chilean and British childhood development.

Allende is wonderful in her descriptions of first romantic, sexual love. I think Eliza is about 16 when she falls in love because she's 16-17 when she boards the ship. I wish I could pinpoint the difference between Allende's descriptions of sexual love and American authors' writing. She writes as if there has not been the taboo to overcome, as if the words are free and beautiful. Not shameful. Anyway, she also does such a good job showing how consuming first love can be. I'm not to that part in my rereading, so maybe I can think on this again as I read it.

Any luck in contacting and asking Allende to join us, Charlie?

Hi, Barbara, you were posting as I was writing.

Saarraaaah.....

Hmmm. I just thought of something else. A connection of Rose and Eliza-------women's lives are lived in secret.

Hi, Betty. You know, you're right. Women's lives were (are still to some extent?) lived in secret.

Thank you for your post.

Oh, you're welcome.

Where is everybody?

I don't know.

Oh thanks for the start-- yes the sex scenes were so opened and with no feeling you were reading behind a brown covered book. So many cultures mingled here. I never quite understood Jeremy-- he seemed to only be discribed and came across as a characture victorian male where as John had some fullness not only as a character but in my understanding him as a breathing living part of the story. Jeremy seems part of the scenery, without many speaking lines as it were if this were a stage production.

Rose's brief affair colors her entie life doesn't it?

Hehe Betty-- I love it! I too expected many posts-- waiting for June 1 as I did Santa as a child!

Allende writes these differences in her charaters and the various cultures without judgement-- here it is folks the warp and woof of one's lifetime experiance!

Hey, Barb. Help me find other words for Ying and Yang----the words you posted a few days ago. I don't like those words (as I don't like the word "opposite" as in opposite sex), but I, too, see the double or multiple sides of everything in this book. My words external/internal are ok but not exactly what I'm looking for.

hmmm I guess I see ying yang as needing to be in balance where as opposites seem at odds with each other-- let me think there must be a better word that speaks to differences as a blend and not homoginized.

counterpart?? complement?? Diversity, distinction, distinguishing??

Here's where my thoughts are:

social vs. personal (what's socially acceptable for Rose vs. her personal needs)

intellectual vs. emotional

instrumental vs. connective (from literature on gender socialization with intrumental (for men) meaning taking action and connective (for women) meaning making emotional human connections)

thought-- Allende is really saying something about the blending of the American culture-- Just as Eliza would be wanting as a character with just Rose's upbringing without the blend of the earthy warmth of Mama Fresia, so too we need to really glory in the specialness each culture has filled in the coloring of our national character,

hmmm yes, but, do you think woman still need to bury our emotional needs to satisfy society? In the time frame of the story yes, but why, except for historical accuracy, would that dichotomy be the issue of a book today do you think?? Aha-- dawning-- how about the concept of, fracturing parts of ourselves and we only share those parts we think are socially acceptable?

I can see Jeremy as a intrumental part of the story but almost like a conjunction because he sure didn't connect with me! And he really didn't come full circle as the story continued as John did. I guess it was Jeremy's need for social acceptance that continued the social mores where by both Rose and Eliza leave home as a result of having an affair.

I had the impression that Rose hid her "true" self from the world due to her disenchantment of being deceived by the great tenor, more than from societal reasons.  This affair shaped her destiny, it twisted her life.  Even though she continued to remember the most minute detail for years to come, she rebuilt her life on appearances, not truths.  I'm sure it lessened the pain for her broken heart.   OR --  Could it have been atonement?  She knew love forever recalling  her lovers "conquest" of her youth  and virginity,   stimulating  her enthusiasm.

Poor, silent,  melancholy Jeremy.  He is so full of dejection and fear.  He fears ridicule most of all.  The man is quite without passion. Isn't he?   He even liquidated his fathers press and bookshop.  He accepted the directorship of the British Export and Import company and the "secret" of Rose's indiscretion remained intact, as they moved to the other side of the world. How would you like a brother like him?  Talk about "flip sides" of a coin.  The dolt is incapable of love or passion.

Wonderful thoughts, Barbara and Alf. I love your notion of the authentic blending of cultures, Barbara. Eliza had it (as part of her development) but Rose did not. And about Rose's fractured selves, letting the parts show that were socially acceptable, yes, that makes perfect sense. I wonder if her erotic stories were a continuation of, maybe a sublimation of her failed affair?

Alf, when you spoke of Rose building her life on appearances, not truth, it made me think of Eliza's (is everyone through reading???) unusual attire later---her false appearance. For Eliza, though, it was purposeful, connected to a mission, served her immediate needs well. It allowed her access.

Please forgive me for coming in late.

Thank you Barbara, Betty and ALF for getting things started. Betty, I cracked up when I saw you talking to yourself.

I found this book captivating from the very start. For example, why was Eliza given different versions of how she ended up on the doorstep?

In one version, she was a rich, privileged child left bathed in luxury and clothed in fur. In the other, she was a poor ragamuffin.

Why did they care? Was it their English, aristocratic heritage? Their inability to accept a "brown" baby into the family without bending Eliza's story?

The family's shame about Eliza struck me from the start. It colored her future, I think - causing her to run away, after a poor boy from the street, into the squalor and danger that was the "Gold country" in 1849.

Interesting, Betty, that you had such a negative reaction to Rose. Somehow, I found her to be a very strong woman - one who loved irrationally, and ultimately learned to adjust to a life alone. She truly loved Eliza, I felt.

Whereas Mama Fresia seemed, to me, intent on making Eliza feel inferior, on emphasizing how she did not fit in that family. I found myself disliking Mama intensely - she always seemed to shoot Eliza down, to remind her she was nothing.

What did you think of Rose and Mama Fresia. Were they the two mothers of Eliza - one, the refined English mother, and the other the stern, chastising, earthy Chilean mother?

I don't get the feel of a failed affair so much as, Jeremy, the paragon of honorable victorian society, confronting them and dragging Rose away from the judgemental eyes of London. Rose submits to his control with no option in her powerless position and moves her true feeling and values underground or rather secreted within, allowing her true self only to be leaked out to Eliza and in her books.

I'm still working on the Janus of Eliza and Tao-- any ideas?

Here are excerpts that tell the two stories of Eliza's arrival on the doorstep of her English family, and show the different ways Rose and Mama Fresia treat Eliza.

"You have English blood, like us," Miss Rose assured Eliza when she was old enough to understand. "Only someone from the British colony would have thought to leave you in a basket on the doorstep of the British Import and Export Company, Limited. I am sure they knew how good-hearted my brother Jeremy is, and felt sure he would take you in. In those days I was longing to have a child, and you fell into my arms, sent by God to be brought up in the solid principles of the Protestant faith and the English language."

"You, English? Don't get any ideas, child. You have Indian hair, like mine," Mama Fresia rebutted behind her patrona's back.

But Eliza's birth was a forbidden subject in that house, and the child grew accustomed to the mystery. It, along with other delicate matters, was never mentioned between Rose and Jeremy Sommers, but it was aired in whispers in the kitchen with Mama Fresia, who never wavered in her description of the soap crate, while Miss Rose's version was, with the years, embroidered into a fairy tale. According to her, the basket they had found at the office door was woven of the finest wicker and lined in batiste; Eliza's nightgown was worked with French knots and the sheets edged with Brussels lace, and topping everything was a mink coverlet, an extravagance never seen in Chile. Over time, other details were added: six gold coins tied up in a silk handkerchief and a note in English explaining that the baby, though illegitimate, was of good stock-although Eliza never set eyes on any of that. The mink, the coins, and the note conveniently disappeared, erasing any trace of her birth. Closer to Eliza's memories was Mama Fresia's explanation: when she opened the door one morning at the end of summer, she had found a naked baby girl in a crate.

"No mink coverlet, no gold coins. I was there and I remember very well. You were shivering and bundled up in a man's sweater. They hadn't even put a diaper on you, and you were covered with your own caca. Your nose was running and you were red as a boiled lobster, with a head full of fuzz like corn silk. That's how it was. Don't get any ideas," she repeated stoutly. "You weren't born to be a princess and if your hair had been as black as it is now, Miss Rose and her brother would have tossed the crate in the trash."

Sarah so glad you are here-- I really missed you-- we posted at the same time. hmmm interesting you did not like earthy voodoish Mama Fresia, she actually made me laugh. She reminded me of some of the 'old wives tales' that surrounded me as a child-- I always dreamt of having a relative that could teach me as Rose and wished silently for the financial impossiblity of going to an acadamy for girls run by some French nuns not very far from where I lived. The school was one of these Ivy covered brick buildings on acres of green, where girls learned to speak french, piano, etc etc, a la our Rose.

Sarah the two stories of Eliza's arrival is just one more example of the pairing devise ued by Allende isn't it? This book seems to be riddled with two sides of a coin and one side a secret or shadowed in unacceptability.

Having come from a family of secrets I bumped right along feeling more at home in the subterfuge than I cared to own and I am sure some went right passed me since for me it would be as normal as brushing my teeth.

hmmmm I'm realizing all I wanted was to project Honor. I was going to make up for all the dishonor in my family-- hmmm all I would have then is like Jeremy a stff neck obligation to carry a banner of honor. I thought I had gotten past that sense of my worth but now, I wonder because the opposite is 'true confession' which is really the other side of the same coin-- Some how I think I need a journy too meet my Tao!

Yes, Barbara - so much of this book is about the two sides of every coin.

Eliza - the pampered English child/the Indian covered in "caca" left on a doorstep. The poor Chinese boy/the English/Indian girl of privilege.

Rose - the refined English lady/with a "sordid" past. By the way, did you think it was Jeremy who ended Rose's relationship with the tenor? I saw it as a failure all on its own.

The Gold Rush - a chance to make oneself rich/an era of great danger and dashed hopes.

Yes, I need to reread I guess but, I got the impression they were 'in love' or at least 'in heat' although, there seems to have been love but then, is one capable of love without honesty?? I don't remember Rose having a clue he weas married till Jeremy pops in at there secluded hideaway. She was happy as a clam and was swifted away with fond memories that she kept her whole life through.

Wow another eye opener for me -- Rose having lived through Eliza and in conspiracy with Jeremy hiding her affair continues her obsession with Eliza. Where as Eliza, after meeting Tao, (her Tao or way) finally replaces the object of her obsesive search and realizes who she is.

Interesting how Allenda uses clothes to help identify character and social values as well as, individual's values.

Further thoughts on your wonderful observation of Mama Fresia's put-down of Eliza-- I think it is fear, envy and not feeling 'good' enough. I notice a lot of put-downs and even dumbing-down thru glorifying crude culture seems to be the rebalious acts of those that feel they will never measure-up or be accepted as equal and so they try to shame you or society into accepting their place or values as the best.

So many good comments that I don't know where to begin! Sorry not to have been here and ready on 6/1, but I haven't finished the book yet. Betty or Barbara -- can't remeber who used the terms "instrumental" and "communicative' as distinguishing two ways of dealing with people to accomplish things together. Neat distinction! I never saw the two terms used that way!
I am well enough along to comment on various things, including the affair of Rose with the tenor, which was remarkable! She seems to be a "flip side" herself, having the capacity for wild, unbridled sexuality at the age of sixteen (or 17?), and a kind of acceptance which to some of us seems to be rather twisted, almost stoic. But I saw something else in her reaction to the revelation and the end of that affair. The episode seems to have nourished her, and to have given her a very individual sense of direction. She seems more than content with the aftermath to me -- almost happy with the memory of that extensive erotic experience, almost as if she doesn't expect there will ever be anything better (note the rejected suitors!) Her plans for Eliza, even her understanding of how consuming this kind of love is, reflect her memories of her own dalliance. She wants her to have the life of a socially accepted woman by the standards she has been given in her own upbringing in British culture, but she peeps at Eliza with a primitive appreciation of what will probably destroy those plans.
I gasped when the book business was sold and they went off to Chile. Imagine a gifted woman with a deep interest in the business letting a Jeremy do that to her now! It should have been her heritage!

Maybe backing up but a lot of posts to read-

back to barbara and betty- YIN and YANG are words used to describe elements of our being- yin the negative, feminine, dark, liquid, hollow organs the yang, positive, masculine, light, fire, solid organs. When one uses the term yin or yang in describing a state of being one is describing the amount of balance or imbalance of a set of characteristics. So too I think betty in your questions about personal and social, physical and emotional (note I am saying and and not vs.). Your descriptives to me also speak to elements that have a degree of balance (remember balance in this sense does not have to be 50:50- in a particular setting 80:20 might be a good balance) but anyway the point I'm responding to is each factor is a part of a whole, even a human whole, we are ....%social and .....%personal in any given situation.

I have problems with the word blend popping up including blending cultures, hmmm do cultures ever really blend- when you blend ingredients you often make something new, and depending on what you do to those ingredients- mash, bake, freeze etc. effects the ability of the original ingredients to return to the original state- thus those that cannot return unscathed- are they in fact manifesting a loss of culture?

alf- Rose- did she really bury her true life or simply create an observed life?

I think most of us (yep here's where men and women have a distinct commonality) create observed lives and part of our wholeness is balancing the inner and outer life.

I'd like to go all the way back to page three "the things we forget may as well never have happened..." hmm gives pause to those who have justified their present lives by believing there is all kinds of sublimated events churling in the unconscious.

YiLi: Yes, I do believe that Rose buried her true "self" as she created a life of noblesse, becoming the aristocatic , genteel Rose. She was masterful at the helm of Jeremy's imperial rule. (paying for her little faux pas.)

Barb: Absolutely!! They were in love! I remember reading early on that as our tenor dallied with Roses's youth and her chastity, he unwittenly fell hopelessly in love with her. I think that it quite surprised him too. They indulged in one another as they had never done with anyone else before. Their passion was accentuated by this mutual love. She didn't know he was married, nor did she ever ask.

I felt mama Frescia was a vital piece of Eliza's childhood. She was a peasant woman with secrets of her own, no last name & without any family of her own nearby. She educated Eliza in the way she would have educated her own daughter; teaching her "kitchen skills" and survival as a piasana, a peon laboring with menial chores. They were skills that she reverted back to many times , assimilating them as she struggled for her own survival. She learned to be the chamealeon, the renegrade -thanks to mamas tuteladge. Mama/Rose = yin and yang. The "flip side" accomplishing duplicity, double dealing, and most importantly -guile. Mama provided the warmth, love and affection that Aunt Rose could not give. Her job was to raise this child as a English aristocrat with feminine wiles, not molly-coddle her. Hours were spent teaching her the fine arts of piano , reading, reciting, walking erect. Mamas job was to envelope this child with tenderness. (those intangibles that make us smarter and stronger.) I felt she was truly adored by mama and grieved for her when Eliazas decision to leave for California was final. What was mamma to do? SPLIT!!!

Loss of culture is a consern not addressed in this country til recent years. My belief is that like in Who Moved My Cheese with change there is loss-- that a change in place brings with it a different geography which, just that alone, would alter the traditions of a culture much less the exposure to many other cultures.

Yep I agree, something new-- Often the change brings about events that start new creation myths that seep into the soul of those living together while they still retain many of their cultural distinctions. To me, when a move takes place, it is like mixing a batch of cookie dough with chocolate chips from the cocoa of Mexico and sugar from Louisiana cane and flour from the wheat of Iowa and salt from Nevada etc. each ingredient adding to the mix but retaining it's own properties and yet a certain blending takes place as the flour takes on some of the flavor and color of the chocolate chips and the sugar permeates chocolate and flour etc.

I think Allende is saying the Gold Rush was the creation myth instrumental in the marked California relaxed attitude, glorification of youth, love of the great out-doors, woman, socially 'allowed,' having, taking more self empowerment to the workplace, contributing to more independent behavior with strong personalities and the myth was the frame for the continued Mexican Anglo problem in that State. Regardless the culture of your birth this California culture is the backdrop that alters individual values among all emmigrants to the State.

Interesting choice of words Alf, 'SPLIT'-- seems Mama Frescia physically split amd 'mother' Rose emotionally split.

Oh excellent, Barb! She certainly did.

Sarah, I don't know what I wrote that sounded to you that I didn't like Rose. That made me stop and wonder if I did or not. I was thinking more about all the stark variety of resources for Eliza's development---and being glad that she had both "pillars," as she called Rose and Mama Fresia. I was glad that Rose had her phases of forgetting all about Eliza for days---when she would write for days then be flooded with guilt and hurry off to find Eliza. "Half love" that I wrote probably doesn't do justice to what Rose felt for Eliza. I think she truly loved her, as evidenced by her pain after Eliza's disappearance---but some of Rose's awakening at the very end of the book speaks to the dormant or unawakened state of connection (love?) at the first of the book.

For sure, Eliza would not have been better off with just Rose or just Mama Fresia as full time "mother." Given Eliza's period of growing up after she leaves Chile, though, I do admit I'm biased in favor of Mama's Fresia's influence. Rose, as with her own life, was concerned with the society-sanctioned presentation of Eliza. It is how she looked while she played the piano that was important (steel rod), not a deep passion for music. Allende writes that Rose played with and dressed her like a doll to take out to show off.

When Eliza was with Mama Fresia, there seemed to be time for her to just be. Time for Eliza to explore, wander about in discovery, no constant orchestration of dress or activity. She also learned about real work and being useful. She found out how satisfying the fundamental work of cooking food could be. I'm really struggling for words here. I think of Mama Fresia as living life and Rose as busy orchestrating life. (something like that) Also, even though Rose may have represented an extreme version (1850s England), I suspect her reliance on what is socially sanctioned is not terribly different from our reliance on what is socially acceptable today.

So, Rose feels familiar to me. As I'll bet Allende knew she would.

Wonderful distinctions between the two "mothers," Betty! I agree that Eliza was loved by both, and both contributed to her care and development.

I was thinking about the two versions of Eliza's "box left on the doorstep." (I can see now that Sarah is going to make us work at this.) Rose kept adding to the story, imagining more glorious origins with each telling---who knows if this embellishment was just for those she told. Maybe it was for herself, as well. Mama Fresia accepted what her eyes saw and in a similar way, accepted Eliza.

It does occur to me, in a lighter sense, that each was "claiming" Eliza with the box story. In my imagination, I can hear Mama Fresia listening to each new embellishment and mumbling to herself that a plain old box is good enough for her.

There is something in the story about Rose and Mama Fresia (much later in the book) that struck me as profoundly sad----that Rose never asked Mama Fresia her last name. All those years that she lived and worked there---no one asked her.

Learning that Rose was the only one who knew who fathered Baby Eliza from the getgo, do you think her fantasy box was a 'cover' or, her mind creating a different reality that she, Rose, needed in order for the Baby to appear worthy of their heritage?

OOOH, don't tell, yet! I'm not that far!

OK JO -- it is hard though, not to speak about this book as all in one as it seems a connected circle with the ending bringing you back to the beginning. This book is written just like an onion being peeled with so much discovery and secrets being unfolded with each peel.

OK, go for it! I'll read faster, or enjoy the discussion even if it does get ahead of me!

What part have you read? There is so much to discuss we can focus on the parts you have read!

Oops, sorry, I read this book several months ago, when it first came out and I thoroughly enjoyed it. It was a wonderful insight into Chile in the mid 1850's and also California in the very early days of settlement. I enjoy books that mix history with fiction. I would love to read more. In fact do you know of any other books written by this author Isabelle Allende. Giovanna

Giovanna:  Check out the clickables at the top of this page for Allende's web site and review of her books.

Rose, herself didn't even realize how much she loved Eliza until Eliza was gone.  Allende called it "an arbirary and chaotic affection."  I loved reading that &  pondered the arbitrary= as in random whimsical, inconsistent.  Rose was caught up in her own shallowness, quite forgetting E.     She died inside after E's departure, sunk into boredom and gave up her sewing, entertaining and her frivolous spirit.  The loss of Eliza opened up the scars in Roses heart, especially the  loss of her tenor.  She rued the fact that she had withheld Elizas true identity from her.  Like the majority of us she was certain that "if she had it to do over again......."
She longed for love and affection, even considering bonding with Jeremy.  Another beautiful sentence by Allende describes her anguish. "Rose kept up appearances out of discipline, with the sensation that nothing BUT her corset held her together and if she removed it she would break apart."  Very powerful sentence.

Thanks Alf for reminding us of the beauty in the sentances-- this is a book I will not be selling to Half Price Books. I really want to read it again to enjoy the craftsmenship rather then just for the story.

Me too, Barb. This one goes to my daughters for their enjoyment.

This book is a virtual library of opportunities lost to women. Here's a critical one for Rose---

About her father's business: "....he decided to give rein to his true vocation, and ended by opening a shop for antiquarian books and others he published himself. In the back of the bookstore he set up a small press....and in an upstairs room of the same shop his trade in rare books grew....Of his three children, only Rose shared his interests....Her father lamented that Rose was the one who loved books and not Jeremy or John, who could have inherited his business. At his death, the male heirs liquidated the press and bookshop."

I have not yet finished the book- but so far I am delighted to interpret that Allende did not create her women as Victims. This to me makes it a super book. Victims after all need oppressors and when there are none around often create them. So far I don't see any of the male characters as true oppressors. In fact these are women I see as charting their own courses- good choices and bad but courageous enough to accept the consequences of their choices.

I like when we finish the overview and get to dissecting the vignettes and dialogue. Will try to catch up over the weekend.

(Oh yeah and Allende did her homework, her herbs and remedies are pretty much on target for Eliza's treatments)

I just finished the voyage to California. The section about Tao Chi'en's life before he was shanghaied was fascinating. It certainly seems, YiLi, that Allende did her homework to the max! She makes the reader believe she knows what life was like in China, and gives us some insight into the effect of the Opium Wars and the presence of the British.
Tao C. was separated from his family, seemed to lose everything, but brought a talent and skills that protected him from foundering completely in the streets of Canton, and later after he was kidnapped. His strength and compassion endears him to the reader. He was created for love, and when his loved one is taken from him, he seems to translate that energy into taking care of Eliza. The vision he has of Lin reinforces the connection.

What did you all think of Tao and his love for bound feet? I found myself wincing at the thought of them.

How interesting, ALF - my impression of Rose was so different from the passage you quote that I realize I must have simply decided at the outset that I liked her and her relationship to Eliza, and simply blocked out anything that disagreed with that impression.

Have any of you ever seen the movie "Gaby, A True Story" about expatriates living in Mexico with a daughter with cerebral palsy? Liv Ullman plays Gaby's mother, and a wonderful Latina actress plays Gaby's nanny. I couldn't help thinking of the Liv Ullman character as Rose (maybe that's why I liked Rose - how can you NOT like Liv Ullman?) and nanny as Mama Fresia. They were both wonderful, and both contributed a great deal to Gaby's life. I think this movie really distorted my reading of the book.

Betty - I guess I overstated your reaction to Rose. I was just so surprised that anyone didn't care for her that it really made me think!

Giovanna - I have read and loved all of Allende's books. I especially loved The Infinite Plan and Paula. The latter was a non-fiction book about the death of Allende's daughter. It was written so beautifully, that in some ways it felt like a novel - but it was made all the more sad when you reminded yourself it was true. She also wrote House of the Spirits and Eva Luna - I think while she was still in Chile. They were written more in the magical realism style, which some don't like (although I enjoy it)

YiLi - tell us more about the herbs and remedies. Allende is a really strong woman, and women always factor very strongly into her books. Every single one of them has had at least one exceptionally strong female character. You're right - the woman as Victim story in novels can become awfully depressing.

Barbara - was it you that said that you could end the book, begin it again, and have the story WORK as if you weren't starting over? You remind us of the beauty of Allende's writing - that's what's always drawn me to her. Her early books are exceptionally poetic. What's great is that she has also become a much better story teller, at least in my mind. Great writing AND a great story - heaven!

What do you all think about the parallels between the California Gold Rush of 1849 and the current dot-com rush in Silicon Valley. I felt Allende making the comparison very strongly in the book - after all, she lives here in the San Francisco Bay Area. I thought the book was in many ways a cautionary tale about what can go wrong in gold rush times.

Interesting comparison Sarah - Gold Rush and Silicone Valley - I think the one made the area ripe for the success of the other with that success dependent on an, emphasis on youth, enterprenurship and an enthusiasm for success which includes inventivness.

Barbara - yes, I think all of those parallels work. There's also the mixed bag presented by any boom time - some benefit, but many don't. The environmental effects of Gold mining are still seen in California today - lakes that are lined with tailings dot the landscape. The down side of the dot-com boom is also apparent - housing shortages, more income gaps, more traffic, an emphasis on youth. All very similar to Gold rush time, I think.

 Sarah:  I liked Rose very much, too.   Allendes description paint such a
pathetic picture of a woman with a broken spirit, as well as a broken
heart.

Yili:  In a way, I felt that  everyone in this novel was a "victim."  A
victim must sacrifice and suffer through the  injustices they've been
dealt.  Each character in this novel fit that bill. Their strengths came
from being   victimized as they in turn learned to deceive and defraud
others.

TAO:  "the Way-"direction," sense," and "harmony" - his anxious expression in his obliquely "set eyes" Allende describes him.   He was victimized right from the beginning by having the misfortune of being born the 4th son, in a family of healers.  I loved him from the start when he was sold into 10 yrs of servitude, named Tao Chi'en and given the destiny to ease pain and achieve wisdom .  He is told that "the wise man is always joyful," as he is sent out at age 14 to attend prostitutes who "death rode on their shoulders."  Another great and powerful statement.
 

YiLi, you said you're still reading. I wonder if we could revisit this subject of "victim" after you've read of the buying and selling of Chinese women and their various outcomes. But I think I know what you mean. There is something so direct, unaffected, unapologetic in how Allende presents her main characters, that I think I'd agree that in one sense of victim-ness, they don't qualify. It's hard to make a case for or against "victim," in a way, because the word seems worn out, used up. There's a political smell to the word that I find offensive, as if we've lost the original meaning. Allende does a clear, straight forward recounting of the roadblocks, forces, restrictions that made lives smaller, stunted, damaged....of those who managed to stay alive. I think it's only Rose and Jeremy's brother John who Allende allows to speak of the offenses. There are several statements from John (I'll go see if I marked them), always with an ironic tone, e.g., that, sure the British were clearing land for settlement in Chile, after they'd killed off the native owners. What a fascinating choice from Allende, an Anglo man, for an enlightened character.

Betty: Yes, you are correct. The word is highly overused but none-the-less it qualifies. The point I was making is "being a victim" one finds their own way as they fight through hardship. What is important is the cards they play with the hand they've been dealt. No different from any of us, it's attitudinal.

Every character seems to have made choices that reduce the "victimness." Rose is victimized by her lover's deceit, but she chooses to remain single and devote her energies to raising Eliza, ironically, in a way that will help her to avoid romantic disappointment and fit comforably into the upper-class culture in Chile. (Sadly ironic the way she weeps and confesses to Joquain's impoverished mother about the destruction of her own youth!) Eliza is victimized by Joquain; she chooses to run away. Her escape turns into an odyssey that shapes her life and the way she thinks about it. Toward the end, she says to Tao Chi'en,"Imagine. All this long, dreadful journey in vain."
He replies, "Nothing is in vain. You don't go anywhere in life, Eliza, you just keep walking."
He was certainly a victim for many years, but now he not only accepts his situation he is in, he embraces it and makes it count for something, for himself and others. I guess I'm trying to say that people may be victims, but they are also not victims when they act productively. Tao's comment to Eliza suggests that we are on a path we didn't choose, or living out our inescapable destiny.
Joquain, his mother, the Singsong Girls -- all more truly victims than the protagonists.

Yea Betty thanks again for bailing me out. I was about to post to Alf that I truly disagreed with him. What I wanted to be clear about though was that I was disagreeing with his view of victim as I read it- not to say any one's is correct- I just disagreed. I am coming I guess from the weary place where the word victim is tossed about and used by many as a label for themselves, especially when the are seeking pity (which is not compassion). Joan Borysenko talks about victims a lot ..."unable to handle difficult situations by the honest and straightforward expression of needs and feelings the victim hopes for salvation by engaging the pity of the oppressor". With that in mind I was just so glad- as a woman in particular- that I had not yet read Eliza or Rose hoping for salvation and certainly not salvation in the hands of any other.

The discussion now just brings me back to those philosophical ruminantions on Subject and Object. I really like the observation of being a victim and not being a victim - being and not being- aha the buddhist emptiness.

oh to keep thinking the quote continues, "Victims need aggressors to oppress them. WE can then feel rage at our ill treatment which is how we compensate for helplessness and fear, experiencing a temporary sense of power in the adrenaline rush...

Oh and Jo yes I fully agree that each character making choices reduces "vctimness".

Like TaoI'm the fourth child- and female no less! Thus cannot have the luxury of adopting the persona of the victim- I'd probably wind up a domesticated goldfish next time around More of a challenge to make my way, neither oppressing nor making choices that allow me to be oppressed.Aha that is what I see in these characters, they are making choices to limit victimness- Tao left China, Eliza left Chile etc.

YiLi - you make a very good point about expatriates making choices to improve their lives by leaving their home countries. I once heard someone say that there's something very special about the U.S. because everyone here (or their ancestors) except Native people came from somewhere else.

All of these characters are expatriates - presumably, Allende can relate to them because she too is such a person. Tao left China, went to Chile, and ended up in California. Rose and her brothers were English. Eliza too went to California.

Doesn't that mean they were very strong people - they chose to leave bad situations and search out better lives in other places?

Jo - I also thought about your comment about Joaquin. You mention that "Eliza chooses to run away. Her escape turns into an odyssey that shapes her life and the way she thinks about it." I was confused by Eliza's continual pursuit of Joaquin. She seemed to realize in the midst of it that she was pursuing something that didn't exist - and that never had existed. The relationship she had with Joaquin was pretty superficial. And yet she persisted in "looking for" him. Why could she not simply accept that she had a right to be in California even if she was not looking for him? And why couldn't she accept Tao into her life? She had inklings that he was right for her - but always, she pushed these feelings away.

I also was fascinated by how Joaquin became an almost mythical figure among the 49ers of the Gold rush.

Sarah, your question on why Eliza continues to look for Joaquin, why it takes so long for her to let go of the pursuit----she was 16 or 17 years old when she left Chile. I assume that this idealized pursuit of a first love had something to do with her youth and inexperience. The author lets her grow up slowly (4 years, was it?) which felt long to me, too, but not when I remembered her age.

Betty - did you feel (as I did) that Eliza realized pretty quickly after she arrived in San Francisco that Joaquin really wasn't the ideal she'd initially believed him to be. Can't find the quote, but she reflected on their relationship back in Chile, and realized it wasn't as perfect as she wanted to think.

There was something else operating here - she was hanging on to a dream that she knew didn't exist. Again, we have a parallel to the Gold Rush - it too was overhyped, overglamourized.

Somehow, with Joaquin, I felt Eliza needed an excuse to continue her journey in California. She knew that if she found him, things would not work out. She used her quest for him as a cover for her own desire to have an adventure, to leave the stifling, traditional life she lived in Chile.

Am I wrong?

To change gears just a bit (!), I wondered about your thoughts on the prevalence of both prostitution and racism in Gold Rush-era California.

The prostitutes satisfied a need, clearly, but there were also atrocities as a result of the sexually charged, desperate atmosphere of the Gold Rush. Recall this excerpt from the book:

"Feemont put his talent for morbid journalism to the test with the tragic death of Josefa, a beautiful Mexican girl who worked in a dance hall. He arrived in the town of Downieville on the Fourth of July and found himself in the midst of a celebration promoted by a candidate for senator and irrigated with a river of alcohol. A drunken miner had forced his way into Josefa's room and she had fought him off, plunging her dagger deep into his heart. By the time Jacob Freemont arrived, the body was lying on a table, covered with an American flag, and a crowd of two thousand fanatics ignited by racial hatred was demanding the gallows for Josefa. Impassive, her white blouse stained with blood, smoking a cigarette as if the yelling had nothing to do with her, the woman was scanning the faces of the men with abysmal scorn, aware of the incendiary mixture of aggression and sexual desire she aroused in them. A doctor tried to take her part, explaining that she had acted in self-defense and that if they executed her they would also kill the baby in her womb, but the mob silenced him by threatening to hang him, too. Three terrified doctors were marched over to examine Josefa and all three declared that she was not pregnant, in view of which the impromptu tribunal condemned her in a matter of minutes. "Shooting these greasers is not the way to go," said one member of the jury. "We have to give them a fair trial and hang them in the full majesty of the law." Freemont had never had occasion to witness a lynching before, but this one he described in emotional sentences: how, about four in the afternoon, they had started to lead Josefa to the bridge where the ritual of execution had been prepared but she had haughtily shaken them off and walked to the gallows on her own. The beautiful woman climbed the steps without any help, bound her skirts around her ankles, placed the rope around her neck, arranged her black tresses, and bid them farewell with a courageous "Adios, senñores" that left the journalist uncertain and the others ashamed. "Josefa did not die because she was guilty, but because she was Mexican. This is the first time a woman has been lynched in California. What a waste, when there are so few!" Freemont wrote in his article."

---------

I suspect this is a true story. Here we have the convergence of the 49ers' desperate "need" for women, the racism toward Mexicans ("greasers"), and violence.

The devolution into prostitution is a far cry from women's initial role during the Gold Rush. From one of the links above:

"During the early days of the Gold Rush, women enjoyed unprecedented freedoms, writes Allende. "They worked in jobs forbidden to them elsewhere; they prospected for gold, worked as cowgirls, drove mules, tracked outlaws for bounty, managed gambling halls, restaurants, laundries, and hotels."

Can you think of parallels to later periods in our history? There was something of this during WWII, when women held roles in factories ("Rosie the Riveter") but lost them once the men came home. While becoming 1950s era housewives is not the same as becoming prostitutes, there's a certain parallel!

-------

From another Allende interview:

IA: Yes, this is a historical novel, but it is the Gold Rush seen by the eyes of the immigrants of color and also from the eyes of a woman. There were moments in the Gold Rush when there were 20 men for 1 woman -- more in some places. They were all young men -- the air was loaded with testosterone -- and there were practically no women. Some prostitutes came, but I didn't want to tell it from the perspective of a prostitute; it's just too sad. So I chose this girl who ends up dressing as a man in order to survive during the Gold Rush. I did not come up with that idea, because at the beginning I didn't know how she would move in this territory that California was then. But when I did the research I realized that there were several women who dressed like men and lived a whole life as men. Sometimes everybody knew that they were women, but they were treated as men, and other times they found out when they were women when they were dressing the body for the funeral. So it was very common then. Well, not very common, but it was done

One more thing (it's Saturday and I finally have some time to think!)

About the cover, I found this tidbit interesting, and thought you might too:

What do you know about the photograph on the front cover of DAUGHTER OF FORTUNE? IA: She's a young woman who serves coffee in a coffee shop next to my house. I had the character in mind when I met her, and I realized that she looked like my character. So I asked her to pose for a photograph with the clothes and in the style of 1850. And that's the jacket of the book. She's not Latin, actually. Her father is Polish, and her mother is Japanese. We rented the clothes and the jewelery from a museum.

So the cover beauty isn't Chilen nor Mexican - they say if you go back 5 generations we are all related! Seeing the strikingly good looking woman, so easily taken for Latin, the saying rings true.

All the shared thoughts on Victim or Victimology and I'm thinking this sentence from another book I'm reading may say more directly, in its poetic form, what we are getting at.

The person who is always expecting consolation from without is like a swaying reed or a boat on a stormy sea.

It seems as if in some uncanny way the surrounding world, the cosmic maya, senses this and loves to play with us-- without malace to be sure, yet with a touch of mockery. To catch onto this trickery is a mark of sanctity.

None of our characters expected consolation from without except Jacob Todd/Freemont. He played into the bet that brought him to Chile and even his press releases in California were to win the appriectiation of readers. I'm thinking that the title, "Daughter of Fortune" is saying, Eliza is a daughter enjoying the luck or fortune of growing up surrounded by adults that influenced her by passing on to her the heritage of not being a swaying reed.

This may better enable us to use the word victim when we speak of the sing song girls. Their situation was desperate. Although they are not developed characters, they do not appear to be 'expecting' consolation. Our Tao and Lin were not 'expecting' consolation for their situation either. In fact most of the protagonists were victimized which was the crisis that propelled them into their lifestyles chosen without 'expecting' consolation.

To me this is addressing the concept of inner strength and because of that strength they bend like bamboo in a storm but do not wave foolishly with every wisp of wind following the other reeds with every whisper of suggestion from without. It is the expecting or needyness for consolation after swaying on the sea if other's opinion that I believe earmarks the helpless victim.

Eliza , in her clouds of dreams  declared her love by handing Joquain a glass of lemonade and a note, as "her blood turned to froth."  Don't you just love that description?  Alls she wanted was to sacrifice herself, suffer to prove her selflessness, to die for him.  This is obsession.  Remember that?  I sure do.

I liked the trusted and highly regarded  Captain John as he returned from exotic, far away places, telling his tales and exhibiting new treasures or tatooes.  As disruptive as he was to Rose's  household, he contributed sporadically to the family. ( Usually it was contraband or negotiable currency.) Welcomed by everyone at the dock he always brought little Eliza  "jewels" for her dowry chest.
He understood Elizas pain.  He said "First love is like small pox; it leaves scars."   How happy he must have been viewing Eliza as she was nurtured and matured into a young lady.  How great his pain when she disappeared.

I'm less concerned with how an oppressed woman or person of color behaves as I am that they are believed. I grow weary of the popular trend of finding fault with them. Will we ever stop pointing at women and blaming!

aha barbra- consolation from without!!!!!! as life moves forward and we get wiser we learn more and more to refocus from the withouts to the withins. nice to have literature like this to evoke a language for us to describe the journey.

i've been co=reading another Kate Gibbons and Giesha while reading Allende- only yesterday did i read the back cover on the author blurb for geisha- its a man!!!!!!!!!! sorry i missed that discussion you all had.

Betty. Did I miss something?

Alf, probably not. I catch myself joining in the need for those who were oppressed to heal, move on, hurry up, get on with it. Then I have a moment of clarity and remember how difficult it is to move away from an oppressed state in the first place and that healing has a very personal time schedule.

And of course I agree with Barbara's references to external forces.

Yili Lin that discussion is archieved and if you have time you can bring it up and read all the posts.

Yes I like the without and within concept of facing life rather then victimology.

I think Betty the current social definition of victim is so wrapped up in clichie that belief is lost. I have recently desided that there is no seeking justice only lots of dollars and time spent trying to hamstring the offender by quibbling with legalities that prevent change in the offenders behavior.

This is all coming from a recent experience where a condo, I'm helping an out-of-state owner ready for market, was broken into and vandalized. The owner is spending mucho $$$ and when financial help was sought for the structure that was found damaged when the bathroom tile was pulled off, the property manager, in the name of 'control,' copied the key out of the lockbox (a huge offence that takes a hearing to repremand at the cost of the owner flying here for the hearing) giving the copy to his workmen who destroyed the hired contracters work in order to satisfy the property manager's need to assure the entire job was completed as he had viewed the partial job. This manager is trying to be the dam holding up insurance aid from the Home Owner's Association insurance policy and finally, in order to lodge a complaint, the insurance company required a police report. The police not understanding the job of a property manager in a condo complex of individual owners as compared to the property manager of a rental complex desides there is no crime and does not come out.

So the owner is paying for it all out of his pocket with no assurance that the property manager will complete the other tasks promised or that he will keep unauthorized folks out of privatly owned property since we need the lockbox with key for other agents to show the remodled unit.

I know completly off the subject but sheesh - a simple change of behavior to respect the private property of others is not protected by justice today as, individuals became property not to be respected or protected by justice during the time in history that Allande wrote about.

Betty's comment just prompted me to share that justice is a euphoric ideal reserved for those with power and money. Waiting or wanting justice is expecting consolation. Wanting to be believed is expecting consolation. What is is and compassion is not served by wanting but by doing what you can with what you've got.

Justice in a court and probably other places is difficult to find, I agree. Compassion (consolation?) can still be found in those who love us, cannot be found in those who don't possess it, and cannot be our only resource---cannot take the place of strength from within. I think that's what I'm trying to say.

My point of reference is standing at the side of a victim (in the old fashioned primary definition) and looking outward. My weariness comes from all those books, etc., that stand away from a victim looking in, judging.

I'm not sure I follow where the victim point comes in. I didn't see any of the characters in this book as victims. Indeed, Allende saw the book as about freedom - kind of the opposite state from victimhood.

Who was the victim?

Sarah I think Rose, Eliza, Tao, Lin, Sing Song girls are all victimized and I think the discussion is comparing, their ability to go forward accepting their situation, creating as much Freedom as they can for themselves with the victim mentality very active today.

Several times in the story we know Rose is obliging societies expectation of her behavior, through Jeremy, by leaving Britian and making a life in Chile that does not nearly compare to the sophistication or cultural opportunities of London. Because of her status as a woman she does not even have the opportunity to carry on her father's work and must hide her talant as a published author.

Eliza although, as it has been pointed out obsessed with Joaquin, in order to preserve her and her families reputation leaves Chile after she learns she is pregnant out of marriage.

Toa must leave never to see again his beloved family, because of poverty, at too young an age. And Lin, in the name of societies idea of beauty, has a limited life with bound feet that keeps her from exercising her body-- on and on. All victims of circumstances, they lead their life from within rather then bemoaming or raging their situation and freezing in their victim status as we often see today.

Along with that though is the realization that today many do not believe or understand well enough, nor desire to understand many victim's situation so that compassion would be the appropriate response.

I think the book must show oppression or victims in order to show securing freedom. How would freedom be noted in a book if the opposite is not made a reality. And then Allande seems to even give us a formula of how to create personal freedom as we follow the behavior of her characters.

Well said Barbara.

another truism- personal freedom- perhaps the only kind there really is. i don't mean to get us off track here but these last posts bring to mind that absolutely amazing movie Life is Beautiful. We outsiders might see that family as victimized, yet the family's view seemed to be one of using the struggle for amazing growth. Though not with them in this present life what an amazing spiritual journey for that mother and son to have shared time with such a remarkable man. In a way I see that sense of what life is as imprinted in this novel, Allende seems to be an author who is reminding us that life is beautiful, providing we CHOOSE to perceive it so and then live a beautiful life.

Sarah, I did say that "Eliza chooses to run away. Her escape turns into an odyssey that shapes her life and the way she thinks about it." Then you said, "I was confused by Eliza's continual pursuit of Joaquin. She seemed to realize in the midst of it that she was pursuing something that didn't exist - and that never had existed. The relationship she had with Joaquin was pretty superficial. And yet she persisted in "looking for" him. Why could she not simply accept that she had a right to be in California even if she was not looking for him? And why couldn't she accept Tao into her life? She had inklings that he was right for her - but always, she pushed these feelings away.

"I also was fascinated by how Joaquin became an almost mythical figure among the 49ers of the Gold rush."

Sarah, I think Joaquin becomes the catalyst for Eliza's discovery of her own strength. Even though she starts the journey out of youthful obsession and desperation over the socially unacceptable pregnancy, she discovers how wide the world is, how fascinating, how problem and injustice-ridden, and best of all, how possible for her to do good and powerful tings! Part of this discovery is the result of her growing closeness to Tao, which I believe Allende wants us to see as a future romance. (There's a place where she is quoting them as an older couple, and Eliza is teasing him about his original aversion to big feet on a woman). She becomes physically close to him when they are sleeping together in the literal sense, during her life as a boy, and she notices that he has a clean smell, like the sea, (freedom, life?) and she repeats this several times in the story, notably toward the end, before they go to view the "head" of the culprit. She frequently associates Joaquin with the room with armoires, a rather confined image, no? He does indeed become the mythical figure, representing much of the cultural clash and the violence associated with the Gold Rush, and Tao becomes Eliza's real life.

Barbara, I loved this: "I'm thinking that the title, 'Daughter of Fortune' is saying, Eliza is a daughter enjoying the luck or fortune of growing up surrounded by adults that influenced her by passing on to her the heritage of not being a swaying reed."
I guess I thought that Allende meant "destiny," but even if she didn't mean the heritage you speak of, I love it anyway!

Ok, Barbara, Betty and Yili, now I follow you. I got lost in there. You're right that in order to become free, you must first have been imprisoned.

I agree that each of our characters escaped a prior situation in order to make an attempt at a better life. Allende, as an immigrant, identifies strongly with the immigrant experience, and the notion of reinventing oneself in a new country.

Are there other issues in the book that interest you? The notion of women disguising themselves as men in order to pass in Gold Rush society? The parallels of Gold Rush time to today's stock market frenzy? The prevalence of prostitution during the Gold Rush and women's inability after the initial rush to find roles for themselves other than in prostitution and related activity? The racial divide among the gold miners - a problem that continues in our people today in many ways? The cultural issues surrounding bound feet, herbal remedies?

Jo - great point about Tao's smell and its link with freedom. One of the things I read several times in the Allende interviews is that she left the ending deliberately vague - we don't know how Eliza and Tao's relationship evolves.

Allende has a friend who's an herbalist and specialist in Chinese medicine, and she based Tao on him.

Jo - I hadn't thought about the armoire image Eliza associated with Joaquin and how confining that was. Didn't you find you could smell how that room - the site of Eliza and Joaquin's first sexual encounter - must have smelled? Musty but sunny.

Barbara - I was going to ask about the title. In the interviews of Allende I've read, I've never seen her talk about it. Your interpretation - that Eliza was the daughter of a number of adults who shaped her and caused her to be an independent woman - was great. Any others? I took the word "fortune" literally to refer to the gold rush, but that doesn't explain the daughter part.

One other thing that I keep wanting to ask but forgetting - what did you all think Allende meant by having Eliza spend her journey to California in the hold of the ship, hungry, bleeding, near death? Was it her journey literally and figuratively to freedom? Her deliverance from a terrible destiny in Chile?

How about her own rebirth? A figurative "delivery," as you have indicated, Sarah!

Yes, I like that a rebirth.

Looks like it took a lot of courage for a woman to entire the gold fields and she either had to disguise herself as a man or be surrounded with other woman and the only way to do that was to become a prostitute. Even the men couldn't protect themsleves much less protect a woman. The scraping for wealth was like gorilla warfare.

I’m late to the party – and you know what that’s like. I’ll be a-talkin’ about ground already covered. Just let me stand in the corner and mumble to myself for awhile until I can catch up and get current, ok? You need not pay any attention to me – no offense to be taken.

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In a very early post, betty mentioned, among other things that DOF was a study of love. I agree that this is a major theme here. The contrast between the “young” love of Eliza for Joaquin and for her “mature” love for Tao Chi’en is expansive. But aren’t they both “real” for those times in our lives? I felt wholeness in the love that grew in Eliza for Tao Chi’en, unlike the very incomplete love that she had for Joaquin. The difference between the love based primarily on physical desire and newness and the love of shared experience and deep knowledge.

Betty also mentioned the “secret bawdy stories” written by Rose. A wonderful touch by Allende, I thought - but much more than that, too. Even more interesting is that Allende herself has written some erotica. Anne Rice writes erotica under another name, of course. These two come to mind immediately. There is somewhat of a tradition of women writing erotica, isn’t there? – and I found it very interesting that Allende would take up this aspect of her (what I consider) co-heroine, Rose Sommers. Says a lot about what outlets were open to her for self-expression.

Betty also commented on the raising of Eliza by both Rose and Mama Fresia – “thank goodness” she was raised not by Rose alone. I agree – but I also place great value on the contribution of Rose. The lessons learned from both stood her in good stead, I think. Barbara seemed to agree – commenting on the “blending” of cultures and the gift that Eliza received by her dual upbringing.

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I liked Alf’s reading of Rose, also: that she “rebuilt her life on appearances, not truths.” But Jo Meander put into words very nicely, the feeling I had that Rose was a very strong woman, noble somehow, clear-eyed and purposeful.

Will stop for now – half way home…

And YiLi Lin talking about the creation of “an observed life.” – where “part of our wholeness is balancing the inner and outer life.” Just so well said, and a (and I don’t use this term lightly) brilliant insight. Again, Rose’s appeal for me can be said to be the wholeness of her being that comes through to me. Likewise, Eliza’s struggle to find that right balance takes most of the novel (to be sure, Rose’s struggle took place prior to…). She lived her observed life exclusively as a “man.” It was awhile before she was able to shed her comfort in that disguise and find her true balance – in many ways this is a novel of that self-discovery as well as about the “aspects” of love.

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I’m missing out on this whole California as metaphor thing. My understanding won’t allow me to stretch that far.

Sarah - You asked about Eliza’s journey to California in the hold of the ship. Harrowing to be sure, what with her near death and the miscarriage. But the preparation as she entered the hold of the ship was a masterstroke of writing (one of many): She discarded all her English clothing (straw bonnet, kidskin boots, dress, petticoats, and last but not metaphorically least, her corset – which Tao helps her out of).

“As the articles of a young English lady's clothing piled up on the floor one by one, she was losing contact with known reality and irreversibly entering the strange illusion that would be her life in the months to come. She had the clear sensation of beginning a new story in which she was both protagonist and narrator”

Both Protagonist and Narrator…. It’s at this point more than any other that this truly becomes her story.

Wow Charlie great stuff-- I am still trying to dope out that this is titled as the 'Daughter" of fortune meaing I take it that the story is centered on the daughters or young woman and yet there seems to be almost as much written to explain Tao as a child and then as an adult and emmigrent to Calif. as there is written about Eliza and Rose. The amount written to fill him out makes him one of the Protagonists in my way of thinking. Certainly more so then either Jeremy who really is never completly filled out nor John. So what does Tao stand for I keep asking myself. Is there a triangel I am not seeing between Eliza, Rose and Tao. I need to re-read and think on this. Any ideas anyone??

One connection I can see is that Tao Chi'en uses herbs as Mama Fresia also uses ancient healing methods and herbs. Tao would then be close to the earthy side of Eliza rather then the European cultural side of Eliza learned from Miss Rose.

And As Charlie pointed out, Tao was there to assist her in shedding her European costume symbolic of a narrow binding life experience (narrowed by a binding girdle.) And yet in order to be free, she had to disguise herself for many years to learn about the other side of her nature. The self-sufficient side of herself that freed her to be able to nurture others. At the end she dresses but, without the girdle. Is this maybe saying, as Miss Rose was her mother, athough not her biological mother -- Tao is her father and not her biological father. There is love but not the act of sex, warmth and familiarity but not sex, a wonderment about sex with Tao but could that all be like a girl/child's attachment to her father, as a daughter imagines marriage with her father and little boys imagine marriage with their mother??

Isn't this wonderful, what we're doing with these books. My thoughts on Allende's book are evolving as I read your thoughts and assimilate them into my own.

Going back to the discussion of "victim" for just one thought---my attention was on overall context, not on whether main characters qualified for "victim" or not. Throughout my first reading of the book, I was continually amazed with the matter-of-fact-ness with which Allende documented all the constraints of the time---the pressures, laws, social expectations, even threat to life. This is the world into which she places her characters. Unlike other authors whose fictions are set in romantisized versions of history, Allende carefully constructs the 1850's world as it was, a place with little freedom for immigrants and women and native populations.

Remarkably, Allende shows in the character of Jeremy that social constraints included Anglo men, as well. His flight to Chile reflected that. I wonder about his rigid presentation (even stiffens when he shakes hands, Allende writes). This helps me see him as someone bound (rigidly) to what was expected of men in 1850s England, then Chile---but as brother to the more alive John, this stiffness may indicate a price, not a cause. I don't know. Recognizing these pressures on Anglo men does not dilute the harsher limitations for women, but supports how all pervasive the prescribed behavior. John goes to sea, a place where men are free from the polluted air on land.

Charlie and Barbara - you got me thinking about Eliza and the title. Given that Eliza lived as a man for so much of the book, and that other women also lived as men in Gold Rush era California, the choice of title "Daughter" was odd. And you're right, Barbara, that Tao doesn't fit if the book is about daughters - unless, as you pointed out, Eliza operates as a daughter figure vis-a-vis Tao.

YiLi - you've mentioned your familiarity with herbs and herbal remedies. Given that both Mama Fresia and Tao used them, I'd be interested in your perspective on things.

Betty - we've pretty much ignored John, and I appreciate your mention of him. He and Jeremy were so completely different. Jeremy was a much freer spirit, whereas John was a very rigid, unfeeling fellow. Almost two sides of a coin (there we are back to that metaphor).

Barbara:  I agree with you, Tao is very much a protagonist in this story.  He appears as a "bridge" to me throughout the novel. He is that span, connection, that link, so to speak between hither and yon.  This man who wasn't  even named for 11 years is the balance in the story.  He balances and bridges!!   His keen ability to  concentrate and his curiosity for learning furthers this mission. Trained in aggresive, traditional medicine, he , none-the-less collects plants to stabilize ill- health.  He bridges the gap betweeen life and death for Eliza . He bridges a friendship with Hobbs.  The subtle art of balance and harmony is reached.   When he awakens aboard the Liberty, with comrades from 4 corners of the earth, friendship is bred, even though it is due to isolation.

Tao passes positive energy, like love -- warm and luminous, Allende says.

I wonder if I'll ever figure out what I think of Rose. I don't think I see her as "whole," though, Charlie, at least through most of the book---because of what she is able to do at the end of the book. So, maybe I see her as capable of moving toward wholeness, unlike how I see Jeremy.

I do like, of course, how she's able to meet the world on her own terms in some things---such as her refusal to marry anyone after arriving in Chile and, as Allende writes, later in California. She did not want the further loss of freedom in an 1850's marriage.

Here's is a reference I found from that time. In 1854, Barbara Leigh Smith Bodichon published a pamphlet, "Married Women and the Law." (U.S. law) Here is an excerpt---

"A man and wife are one person in law; the wife loses all her rights as a single woman, and her existence is entirely absorbed in that of her husband. He is civilly responsible for her acts; she lives under his protection or cover, and her condition is called coverture.

A woman's body belongs to her husband; she is in his custody, and he can enforce his right by a writ of habeas corpus.

What was her personal property before marriage, such as money in hand, money at the bank, jewels, household goods, clothes, etc., becomes absolutely her husband's, and he may assign or dispose of them at his pleasure whether he and his wife live together or not.

A wife's chattels real (i.e., estates) becomes her husband's.

Neither the Courts of Common law nor Equity have any direct power to oblige a man to support his wife....

The legal custody of children belongs to the father. During the life-time of a sane father, the mother has no rights over her children, except a limited power over infants, and the father may take them from her and dispose of them as he thinks fit.

A married woman cannot sue or be sued for contracts--nor can she enter into contracts except as the agent of her husband; that is to say, her word alone is not binding in law....

A wife cannot bring actions unless the husband's name is joined.

A husband and wife cannot be found guilty of conspiracy, as that offence cannot be committed unless there are two persons."

Betty with so many legal and social outward constrants it is even more wonderful isn't it to see the adventourous, curious, comptetent, skilled personalities imerge in both Rose and Eliza. Each in their own way live their life from within. They each express themselves, Rose with her musical evenings and secret writing while Eliza with her travels, commune with nature, exploring medicine, earning a living as an entertainer. They are each a force and only Rose becomes temporarily a spent force after she losses contact with Elisa.

The guilt Rose must have felt, especially knowing societies mores caused her to move to Chile and the same issue is affecting her Elisa. She could do nothing to protect Elisa or change the social constrants that affected both woman.

I remember from an Opra show, based on recently divorced woman still frozen in their pain, one of the woman said something to the affect Waiting for the pain to leave in order to feel better and make a life...you will never make a life becuase the pain never leaves. This book has been a great example of woman making a life regardless of their pain.

Daughter of fortune- hmm perhaps defining fortune as something of great value- thus daughter of great value?

one thing to consider in the administration of herbs by Tao as a traditional chinese medicine master is the use of remedies to alleviate the causes of the outward manifestations (symptoms) of imbalance. most traditional formulas also treat the "spirit" along with the organ and the qi. so in many ways - not just herbs- i would venture that Tao clearly saw his role as ministering to Eliza's spirit. If Allende is introducing us to Tao as a concrete example of a cultural practice, then I offer that some of our western interpretations and freudian analogies are misplaced. The TCM (even today) has a particular role in the life of his/her patients as well as a particular role in the village or local social structure of expatriated Chinese.

That evokes and interesting line of thought to me- ruminating on Tao not as a support character to Eliza, but looking at him- who is is- how is is choosing to live his life in this arena of expatriates.

Wow -- ministering to her spirit - wow, now I need to re-look at the story with that concept. I like the thought that the spirit has value to be addressed by Allande.

Daughter of fortune. One old fashioned saying regards going out to "seek your fortune" in the world, so that "fortune" here has a broader meaning, more than money. Also, isn't there a long used concept of "man of fortune"----a powerful force. ("woman" of fortune--too young, "girl" of fortune, no; therefore, "daughter"?)

Rose and Mama Fresia tussled with descriptions of Eliza's box on the doorstep. They were at odds over her real fortune. The title may relate more to her found, spiritual fortune.

Barbara, you wrote: "The guilt Rose must have felt, especially knowing societies mores caused her to move to Chile and the same issue is affecting her Eliza. She could do nothing to protect Eliza or change the social constraints that affected both women."

This is where all my unanswered questions about Rose are. See, I'm not as certain as you are that Rose was leading a life of such awareness. I see her as just living, staying busy with her musical evenings. And, remember, she accepted the cultural approach of offering/withholding favors to get from men what is needed (she used illness and blindness) and was teaching this approach to Eliza. Allende repeats this belief of Rose's so often that I began marking it.

I have to say, though, that I appreciate Rose more than I first did. At first, I just felt sorry for her because she had been yanked out of her country to prevent family shame and in Chile was working so hard to maintain a certain level of society's approval. Like a character in a play.

This discussion reminds me of the different perspectives of Clarissa Dalloway in V. Woolf's Mrs. Dalloway----some of us viewing her life as fulfilled and some of us thinking Woolf presented a woman who settled for less, unable to break free. Guess which perspective was mine.

betty - The “matter-of-fact-ness” of which you spoke certainly is one of the things I liked about this novel – this “matter-of-fact-ness” with which Allende lays out the “constraints of the time” – but also this same “matter-of-fact-ness” with which Rose and Eliza go about living their lives under these constraints. These are women to admire.

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Sarah - Jacob Todd/Fremont is an interesting character too, who reinvents himself a coupe of times from missionary-cum-bible salesman to journalist of the Gold Rush to Chronicler of the Myth of Murieta/Andieta (“California needed its myths and legends...”).

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Alf – Great post on Tao as “the bridge”, the balancer. I think you understand him very well. But let’s not forget what Eliza taught Tao – especially about women: “Lin and you [Eliza] have taught me a lot about women.” Not the least of which was the concept of friendship between man and woman. This, to me, was one of the marvelous acknowledgements of this book. Although partly a cultural realization, Eliza had made him realize that “he had never thought that friendship with a woman was possible, to say nothing of one from a different culture.”

By the way – having read Steinbeck’s East of Eden recently – the Tao character is very reminiscent of Lee in that novel. Both in fact, made a break with their expected roles when they cut their queue. Tao even adopted Western dress: “In America, you have to dress like the Americans…He was possibly the only Chinese man in the city who looked the way he did.” And what did you all make of Tao’s epiphany in Singsong Girls (“The investigations of that day changed the course of Tao Chi’en’s destiny.”)?

Charlie - you talk about the friendship between Tao and Eliza. Did you find it believable? I felt that Allende was putting a bit of a 21st century, San Francisco multicultural spin on their relationship. While each character on his/her own was eminently believable, I found it hard to imagine - especially in view of the stark divisions between men and women, and people of different races/ethnicities - that these two characters actually would have had such a relationship in 1849.

YiLi and ALF - nice discussion of Tao as creating balance - in his presence as a gentle man, his use of herbal remedies, his mediating force in the life of Eliza. What do you make of the fact that in the initial part of the book, he was not so "balanced." He preferred women's bound feet, fantasized wildly about them, saw them as a prerequisite to a good match. Somehow that casts him in a far more sinister light.

Betty - I'm happy to see you've come around about Rose! I agree with you, though, that she was NOT leading a life of awareness. While I thought she truly loved Eliza, she was not truly aware of the constraints in her own life, of how ridiculous and rigid her life was.

P.S. Allende's last book was called Aprodite. As Charlie mentioned, it indeed consisted of erotica, and stories about food I believe. After Allende's daughter died suddenly, Allende went into a deep depression. The only thing that cheered her up was writing - and the only things she felt she could write about were sex and food!!

Hmmm. This is her first novel since her daughter died. I wonder if the "daughter" in the title here is not coincidental.

I had not thought of that Sarah and I think you're probably right. Even today i suppose - that's more an ideal than a common reality.

I do think the change in Tao that you allude to (and there WAS one) was brought about by the influence of Eliza, though.

Tao and Eliza. It's possible that their first relationship of doctor and patient in the extended struggle to keep Eliza alive aboard the ship gave them a foundation of closeness they would not have had otherwise. Also, this odd pairing produced deep friendship only after a long--2 years? 3 years?---more practically based togetherness. Eliza's practical need to keep passing as a young boy also held them together. Anyway, I'm just romantic enough to have forgiven Allende any doubts about them.

One of the fascinating things about Eliza is how she developed her talent for making herself invisible, in order to blend in and not call attention to herself. When she first started her affair with Joaquin she was able to get away and meet him, despite Rose's and Mama Fresia's suspicions. "At times she gave the impression of being in several places at once…her presence was subtle, nearly imperceptible, and when she went away no one realized it until hours later." Like a ghost, Rose said of her. Quiet like a rabbit, Mama Fresia said. She had "an astonishing skill for clouding reality." She used this skill growing up in Chile as she discovered love, and again in California as a survival technique. She used it to claim her freedom from the constraints of the world. There were others like her, too. Charley: "The longer she watched him, the surer Eliza was that, like her, this was a woman dressed as a man." Allende plays a lot with this role switching to interesting effect. As she drifted around California she met up with a group of itinerant actors and, passing for a man, she played the part of a woman: "I didn't know whether I was a woman dressed as a man, a man dressed as a woman, or an aberration of nature." Then there was Joe Bonecrusher, "a corpulent Dutch woman" who believed that "she had been born a man in a woman's body." It was around this time that we hear of Eliza's rousing and passionate triumphal cry of self-discovery:

"She fell in love with freedom. In the Sommers' home she had lived shut up within four walls, in a stagnant atmosphere where time moved in circles and where she could barely glimpse the horizon through distorted window panes. She had grown up clad in the impenetrable armor of good manners and conventions, trained from girlhood to please and serve, bound by corset, routines, social norms, and fear. Fear had been her companion: fear of God and his unpredictable justice, of authority, or her adoptive parents, of illness and evil tongues, of anything unknown and different; fear of leaving the protection of her home and facing the dangers outside; fear of her own fragility as a woman, of dishonor and truth."

"She felt she was flying free, like a condor" she writes to Tao, that "she had lost her fear of fear." This is a powerful passage of awakening and growth and strength. One of my favorite passages in the book.

Not sure how Tao's fantasy about bound feet suggests him a sinister character. He is simply enjoying what was a cultural definition of beauty. To not evoke gender issues that use an example of other female body alterations from other cultures- let me attempt an analogy to the american male- is it sinister for a woman to fantasize about penises, tattoos, large muscles, tall, blond, long hair (who is that guy on the can't believe its not butter commercials?) and now with young people pierced tongues, ears, noses, shaved heads- these or other cultural definitions of masculine beauty? And like the women of other cultures, often american men undergo physical pain, surgery, implants, explants, etc. to achieve the look.

Also, YiLi, Tao's disgust with large feet made Eliza's and Tao's eventual close friendship more believable---they had many cultural differences to contend with at first. We would never have believed an instant chemistry.

YiLi - given that Tao himself later realized that his obsession with bound feet was wrong, I don't think it's the same thing as being attracted by someone who's tall. He saw how crippling the bound feet were for women, and that women were not given much choice in the matter of whether or not to bind. It's like saying that female genital circumcision is ok because it's culturally bound. I don't think that compares to the voluntary acts of self beautification that we engage in in present day society. While "sinister" may not be the proper word, it seems Tao himself became enlightened over time.

Time and place make for lots change in values don't you think?

Found this link on foot binding - with drawings that aren't graphic. Kind of fascinating. It also makes YiLi Lin's point that foot binding can be compared to today's practices of making oneself beautiful.

http://ericir.syr.edu/Projects/CHCP/foot.html

I was not suggesting that bound feet was okay- I was attempting to move past a modern and external cultural view of an individual's character, suggesting that we take a universal view. What is interesting is the studies over time that have suggested that what we might consider aberrations in a culture up to and including torture the participants in that culture not only accept, but often seek as attaining a "mark" of belonging. I had wanted to also point out that men in various cultures, including our own, also engage in self "torture" if not by direct choice, by choosing to want to attain the mark of the culture. I had hoped by using a male reference we would not get caught up in the very valuable current issues of female gender "tortures".

To me it is easy to see these cultural marks when we look at indigenous cultures, including the various fasting, body scarring, etc. in the native american indian tribes. However, we often overlook those same kinds of practices in our modern american culture. I think the question of choice and choosing that arises here is reflective of most of the discussion we've had in our readings with settings in other cultures- is the choice truly a choice and made from an individual initiative and an individual world view or is choice made in a limited capacity based on cultural norm? Its been ages since I've sat in on a social anthropology class so I have no clue if that age old question has been answered.

I think that though is what informs the Allende book and makes for such challenging discussion- are her characters truly making individual choices or are they culturally bound and in the case of the gold rush are they event bound?

YiLi, that's exactly how I see Allende's book---an accurate portrayal of the cultural restraints and how different characters lived within them. My bias is that we are culturally bound in knowable and even insidious, unknowable ways. The question of Allende's characters making individual choices---I see those with more cultural freedom being able to make more individual choices but we see that even Jeremy was influenced by what was "proper." John less so. Rose's world was very small and the strength to move beyond it came late in the story.

Where Allende shines is in the conundrum of Eliza's choices. Even though we write about Eliza dressing as a boy as if it was fun and so wild and creative, I'm trying to imagine the reality of giving up her language and her identity. Yes, she was able to travel in this disguise---free from confining clothes, free from detection----but Allende makes the unmistakable point that women were not permitted in this world, except to service the sexual needs of men. This was a man's world she wrote about---in England, Chile and California.

An accurate portrayal of the cultural restraints?

Betty, I found this quote about another historical novel that, in my view, sums up Allende's approach here:

"Regardless whether they intend to, novelists use period settings not only to shed fresh light on the dim and musty past, but also to illuminate the hypocrisies and shortcomings - and even the glories - of their own eras.

. . .

[M]any of the period novels published in the past 18 months take a decidedly modern approach to times past, chronicling the lives of the disenfranchised - syphilitics, prostitutes, unwed mothers and the like - in a rather femininst (and often anachronistic) manner."

I think this is precisely what Allende has done in this novel. I see so many parallels to modern day San Francisco. The more I think about and discuss this book, the more I find portions of it hard to believe for the reasons set forth in the quotation.

Some read and take the Bible very literatly-- just as we can take this story as a discription of history, dropping some characters in and try to work a tale forgetting that we are reading with our 21st century sensabilities. Much like viewers and participants disappointed in the families attempt to recreate daily life in 1900 while feeling joy (they aren't) in the 1900 PBS series. (I understand the flaw of the series depicting the socio-economic in the 1900 is, they would typically have servents, which has been pointed out in another seniornet discussion.) I guess I do not see that it is that important for characters or history or place to be believable in a Novel as long as the symbols work.

As I understand a novel, it is a novel because it does take a licence with reality. I understood that a novel is not an accurate discription of time and place nor behavior but, symbolicly a novel can help us discover what we value, open our eyes and hearts to what is right as we compare the situation characters face or charactistics of these characters to our culture today.

A novel opens our imagination, enriches us with well written lines, humor, truth and expands our knowledge. The novel is an art form, as a great painting is not a photograph. A good or great painting stirs a strong emotional reaction, not only because of artistic technique but the subject matter is held in our collective memory or, the symbol painted is a symbol we can react to in a new way, and so too a novel would stir in our hearts a strong emotional reaction so that we feel something. The elements of a novel, together or singularly, and the symbolisms uncovered in the novel plant within us a desire to live our own lives fully, wisely and well.

To me this story is a verbial artform. The beauty of language is a joy to read. The story for me shows that when you have not uncovered your own freedom, regardless that freedom is constricted by societies mores, your own lack of education or needing to please than, as the song goes, "I owe my soul to the company store."

I can also see, through this story, that developing some skills enables you, when the chips are down, to have something to sell other than your body. For men they only have to sell their bone weary intense labor and for women sex. Jeremy's character helps me see that trying to live by what ever societies mores are at the time, leads to a colorless, although safe, life and all the clothing symbolism used by Allande supported that thought.

In earlier posts someone pointed out the symbol of the Gold Rush as compared to the rush for gold today in a different setting. Out of that I can see a frenzy of any kind changes the dynamics of a place. Also, there are winners and loser as a result of the rush that serves to open wealth to a new group.

That in the backrooms of most professions there is abuse waiting for us to assist, as Tao found his singsong girls to minister.

That we often find something else when we act, truly committed to something we desire, or when we commit to helping another attain their desire as Tao helps Eliza.

That communing with nature is a great way to unlock the feelings of freedom that we may have buried. Supporting funding for green places, public parks and spending time and money on my own garden is not just esthetically valuable but is a valuable tool to uncovering our sense of freedom.

On and on this book is loaded!

Betety love your bias of cultural boundaries! I agree with Barbara, novels are fiction- even "historical fiction". One takes a look to see if there are modern characters in a sense visiting the past, present or future or is there a sense of characters from their own time- but perhaps that is part of the "insiduous boundary" the unknowable since we nor the modern author has lived in those times.

What I like about fiction is its ability to ask questions- an element more important to me than the novel or the reader's ability to answer them.

Once while I was reading, my mind wandered to the possibility of Allende wishing we could know what a woman's eyes would have seen in 1850s California if she had had access to the off-limits places. So much "history" has been written by men. Recently published letters and diaries from women on the Oregon trail tell a different story from traditional records.

Sarah, I wonder if you are thinking Allende overstated the cultural context. As I read, I thought she probably left things out, not wanting to overwhelm the story. Her other novels based in Chile have followed that country's wretched history in the same unapologetic style. You may have a point, though, on the story line.

The Lehrer News Hour has brought to our attention that for many woman they are no better than the singsong girls of 1850. According to a Mrs. Robinson the numbers of sex slaves, mostly Chinese girls beat into submission upon their arrival after leaving China or Africa are in the multiple thousands, with a million being suggested, today, in the year 2000!

Barbara - it constantly amazes me how people are shocked about what happened in the past - only to realize that it's still happening today. We seem to learn little from history, don't you agree?

Betty, YiLi, Barbara - while I agree that no author can put herself back in time and truly think as one would have then, the modern voice can intrude and distract. While I didn't feel Allende had this problem consistently, there were times when I could hear a year 2000 San Francisco perspective creeping in. Since I live that same life here in SF, it was distracting. It took me out of the story and reminded me of where we are now - in the midst of another gold rush (Silicon Valley/NASDAQ) with all its attendant problems.

While it was interesting to be reminded of the parallels - very interesting - her choice of words could have been more subtle. I can't find where she used the term "multicultural," but she did use it and it just didn't fit with 1849 California.

This is a small point - it in no way ruined the book for me. Indeed, the parallels between then and now are fascinating. I do believe a good story is timeless and relevant to present day.

What other parallels do you see between the gold rush story and year 2000 America?

I agree Sarah...lots of parallels...maybe that is why it was so easy to relate to this story and why we found so much gold within it.

What about the lorrie-load of dead Asians that arrived in Dover, England last week? What was going on there? The news stories I heard indicate that there wsas indeed traffic in casual for-sale or for-rent sex partners being fed by this import system, which in this case resulted in a horrible disaster. Why did it take the "shock" (?) of a tragedy like this to bring it to light?
I loved this book. It will live in my memeory for a variety of reasons, including the way Rose sublimated her love-energy in trying to channel Eliza's life in the paths she believed were most fruitful. As it happens, Eliza makes other discoveries for herself; Allende seems to be saying she is a woman ahead of her time in her headstrong drive toward a different future. Joaquin was the catalyst, not the destiny. I think Tao Chi'en is her dstiny, Tao who made his own unwilling and life-changing voyage. They both make discoveries through observation and experience that bring them into the 20th century in very positive ways.

JO: You're right! He was her destiny. Allende described it: " he granted her the courage of a warrior." Allende says "she felt the man in her own blood, with ancient & fierce certainty." She had never understood Miss Rose reference to the soul, the immutable part of her being, until then.

I just have a couple of comments that I would like to make before passing my book on for someone else's enjoyment.

The gold "fever" brought all of these nationalities together.  They became one, in a sense.   All of the races joined together and flowed together, looking for gold. (Will we ever accomplish that again? ); Allende says "They lost their souls."  There was a lot of talk about the gold but none about the sacrifices that had to be made to get it!  the Americans, without patience didn't work as a team & were defeated by their greed and their lack of discipline.  Hmm- not much different now, is it?  Allende says, "the only ideology was greed not a code of honor anymore."  It was a paradise of freedom, though for many, even Eliza.

The Mexicans/Chileans knew mining, but squandered their earnings.  The Russians wasted theri time by drinking and fighting.
The Chinese were frugal, abstaining from drink .  Laboring hard they were an armor of good manners. All in all we continue today in just this manner, don't we? What is different? Greed? Coveting? NO!

The argonauts turned the world upside down, moving mountains and pulverizing rock.  This idyllic land that was untouched since the beginning of time was turned into a lunar nightmare.  The stopped me dead in my tracks and reread that numerous times.  It was such a profound sentence.
I am passing my book on as I run to the library for another of Ms. Allendes stories, this one was my first, but not my last.

Perhaps souls can be found by finding each other and melding the strengths and insights each group has to bring to the mix.

Jo says "Joaquin was the catalyst, not the destiny. I think Tao Chi'en is her destiny." Beautifully put. I especially agree about Joaquin - without him, she wouldn't have gone to California and become her own person. That said, it makes me uncomfortable to think that she went through all of that hardship for a destiny completely entwined with another person. Maybe her destiny was to triumph on her own, to become a strong woman in her own right, to get in touch with both her feminine and masculine sides, to live on her own. Tao was simply the companion who accompanied her on her journey.

ALF: "The argonauts turned the world upside down, moving mountains and pulverizing rock.  This idyllic land that was untouched since the beginning of time was turned into a lunar nightmare." So beautiful, and SO TRUE. You travel around California and see places that are still unchanged, and then see the devastation of those places that are ruined forever - and 1849 was the start of it all. It's hard to believe that we've so altered the landscape in a mere 150 years.

ALF, I loved House of the Spirits, Paula and the Infinite Plan, if you're looking for more Allende.

Sarah, I love your description of Eliza's "in her own right" destiny. In my view, a definite strength of the book is that Allende didn't use a traditional happily-ever-after ending, or as Carolyn Heilbrun writes, the story ends when the woman gets married. It is very unusual for the woman's future to be still unknown---how refreshing.

SARAH.T, thankyou for the Email.,At last i finished reading 'Daughter of Fortune', an amazing story.

BETTY GREGORY, yes i agree with you about the 'ending it leaves one plenty to ponder over,I like that, I love to keep a good story going on in my mind.

I'm about to start reading 'Cinnamon Gardens'by'Shyam Selvadurai.[Novel about Colonial Ceylon]Same author wrote 'FunnyBoy'.

regards Estell.

Another beautiful statement by ALF: "The gold 'fever' brought all of these nationalities together.  They became one, in a sense.   All of the races joined together and flowed together, looking for gold. (Will we ever accomplish that again?)

I was reminded of the power of races joining together in a book I just started, When We Were Orphans by the great Kazuo Ishiguro (Remains of the Day, The Unconsoled). His character, living in Shanghai in 1930, says:

"Well, it's true, out here, you're growing up with a lot of different sorts around you. Chinese, French, Germans, Americans, what have you. . . . But that's no bad thing . . . I think it would be no bad thing if boys like you all grew up with a bit of everything. We might all treat each other a good deal better then. Be less of these wars for one thing. . . . It'll be because people have changed. They'll be like you, Puffin. More a mixture. So why not become a mongrel? It's healthy."

LOVE that sentiment.

Well as much as I resisted reading this I would have missed a great book. I usually don't like joining a band wagon and this being an Oprah book I had mixed feeling about us here on seniornet discussing it. Thanks for taking this on Sarah the discussion was great with so much insight that reading this alone I would have missed. This is one of those books that I won't be selling at Half Price Book Store anytine soon.

Yes, thank you Sarah, for this discussion! Cinammon Gardens ... ummmm, doesn't that sound good?
Loved Remains of the Day,; couldn't get through The Unconsoled. When We Were Orphans sounds intriguing.

You've been a great group, and I truly think we've delved deeper than any other discussion of this book I found.

If you like Philip Roth, join me and Ginny in September to discuss his latest novel, The Human Stain.

Thanks once again for all your great insights.

Much love,

Sarah

Thank you, Sarah--wonderful discussion. Wonder if Allende is working on her next.