Death of Vishnu, The ~ Manil Suri ~ 8/06 ~ Read Ar Export

Welcome to
THE DEATH OF VISHNU
By Manil Suri

"Vishnu, the odd-job man in a Bombay apartment block, lies dying on the staircase landing. Around him the lives of the apartment dwellers unfold: the warring housewives on the first floor, lovesick teenagers on the second, and the widower, alone and quietly grieving on the top floor of the building. In a fevered state Vishnu looks back on his love affair with the seductive Padmini and wonders if he might actually be the god Vishnu, guardian of the entire universe. Blending incisive comedy with Hindu mythology and a dash of Bollywood sparkle. "The Death of Vishnu" is an intimate and compelling view of an unforgettable world."

Author's Note

"Although the persons and events depicted in this novel are fictional, the central character was inspired by a man named Vishnu who lived on the steps of the apartment building in which I grew up. He died in August 1994 on the same landing he had occupied for many years."

Discussion Schedule
First Week ---------- Chapters 1 - 4
Second Week ----- Chapters 5 - 7
Third Week --------- Chapters 8 - 12
Fourth Week ------- Chapters 13 - 16

Talking Points

The calculus of a soul's progress in the realms of Karma.

The life, the perplexing, obtrusive, wonderful life, in the midst of which Vishnu lies dying:

Any additional suggestions and questions from the many found in the two links:

Author's Web Page

Reading Guide from HarperCollins

Glossary (Submitted by Laura and Deems)

Introduction to Hindu Mythology (submitted by Laura)

To get to the first post of the actual discussion Click here

Discussion Leader: Jonathan

B&N Bookstore | Books Main Page | Book Discussion Guidelines | Suggest a Book for Discussion
We sometimes excerpt quotes from discussions to display on pages on SeniorNet's site or in print documents.
If you do NOT wish your words quoted, please contact Books.

At a loss for a summer read? Will you be, by the time August comes around? Do you enjoy telling others how you feel about a book? Or hearing what others think about it?

Why not allow Manil Suri to entertain you with his first novel, THE DEATH OF VISHNU. It will make you laugh. It will make you cry. Heaven forbid it should leave you angry and disgusted. That's right. This book can only be truly enjoyed with great feelings that run the gamut from pity to indignation. And that, as it turns out, is just a very short step.

Consider joining us. Bring a friend.

Oh I am so glad to see this discussion being planned, I have heard SO much about this book and I absolutely LOVE India, I'll be here with bells on, I'll get it while travelling the next week or so and be ready. I just bought a new book on India, this will be fabulous!

A perfect summer read, thank you Jonathan!

What an inspiring statement. I hope it's catching...

Ginny, how nice of you to reply to my book proposal in such an enthusiastic way. Depend on it. It's a wonderful read, an old-fashioned read, but as contemporary as only ancient India can be.

And do pick up Vishnu while you're travelling. He'll be a delightful companion.

Hi Jonathan, poor Vishnu. How long did it take before somebody removed this man from the staircase?? Anyway, this is what caught my attention. I feel deep sympathy for Vishnu. What are the people thinking as they walk pass Vishnu? Is he just in their way? Do they hurt for him?

Anyway, I would love to read about India in August. In August isn't the temperature pretty high in the summer? It is here in Tennessee.

It sounds like an interesting concept - a dying man telling his story. I'd like to join this discussion as well.

hi Hats

You are just going to love this book. And with your many questions you're going to make it very attractive for others. Besides making it very easy for me. I'm always at a loss for questions to ask. But I can tell you that you are going to get some surprising answers to the questions you ask about poor Vishnu.

welcome Scrawler

It always adds so much to a discussion to hear what a writer gets from other writers. I like to think that you will be impressed by Manil Suri's first novel. In my opinion it's an awesome, absorbing tale. Occasionally I allow myself some superlatives. Info on the back cover says that some of his shorter fiction has appeared in The New Yorker.

I read Rohinton Mistry's A FINE BALANCE years ago, and ever since I have been utterly fascinated by India. I'm in- if you'll have me.

Scootz, you would do us all a great honor if you graced our discussion with your participation. I've enjoyed your incisive comments in several discussions now, and would miss them very much in VISHNU if your were to stay away.

So Mistry's book made India fascinating for you? I guess it was Rudyard Kipling's KIM that got me hooked, as a young teenager.

Already I'm trying to guess what you might have to say about some of these characters.

G'morning, J. ~ Shall I give this a try? I'm know so little about India, except for Forester's books. This one sounds fascinating! !

Mippy, you most certainly should. And give us all the benefit of your reaction to this literary slice of Indian life.

Who can forget the Forester book! That was on the college reading course for me. But, oh, those tough questions one wrestled with on the exam. Apropos to that would be the answer I once heard my 13-year old g'daughter give her mother when she was asked specific questions about the book she was reading: I don't like being quizzed about something I'm reading for enjoyment.

I suspect she was still puzzling over what she was reading.

Yes, please give this book a try. And enjoy August along the way.

I'm new to the group and would like to join this discussion.

L.A.

Hi, Johnathan, how's this for a quick decision?
Taking the B&N gift card I'd been saving, I ran into town today and bought the book! It looks terrific!

Welcome, LanniSam! It's great to have a new reader join us. How did you hear about SeniorNet?

I hope you will enjoy this discussion. You might want to look around to see the other book discussions that are taking place before this one in August.

Welcome, LanniSam, to what promises to be a fine, summer discussion. You'll find this a very congenial group, as they all are in SeniorNet. Our procedure is very relaxed. If you have any questions, please post them. You'll find everyone very helpful.

Thanks, Marcie, for extending the warm welcome to LanniSam.

Mippy, may your 'quick decision' be rewarded with a memorable August. If ever a book could be judged by its cover this must be it. Every time I pick it up to read, I first take a few minutes to contemplate the heavenly scene on the jacket. Star-crossed lovers?

Looks like you're rounding up the "usual suspects", Jonathan. I'm looking forward to this- have had the book on my shelf for ages now.

Suspect all you like, Scootz, but you'll never guess what I have up my sleeve for this one. And I have no doubt you are going to be genuinely surprised by what has been lurking on your shelf all this time. Just make sure you get thru that 2000-pager you mentioned in the Book Nook. I'd need an age to get thru that one.

Just make sure you get thru that 2000-pager you mentioned in the Book Nook. I'd need an age to get thru that one.

Oh goodness, I'll be all summer reading LADIES, m'dear. TEACHER MAN and VISHNU are side dishes.

Hi everyone! I would like to join this discussion. I love Jhumpa Lahari's work and have read Queen of Dreams by Chitra Banerjee Divakaruni. It seems these books may have touched on some of the same themes and ideas as The Death of Vishnu will. I must confess, I hadn't heard of this book until I saw this discussion posted, but it sounds just right for me and my interest in books about other culture and countries.

Some of you may remember me from the Middlemarch discussion last fall, which is the only Seniornet discussion in which I have participated. I called myself a junior member since I haven't hit 40 yet, but I enjoy the stimulating conversation here.

See you all soon!

since I haven't hit 40 yet

Laura,

Must you keep mentioning this?? LOL Nice to have you here but ix-nay on the orty-fay!*

it's ok, Laura and I are friends.

LauraD must have been here before. She has been on my Book Bytes list for about a year.

JONATHAN, from the description in the header I realized that I read that book two years ago and will be joining you. What a great choice!

What an omnivourous reader you are, Scootz. What an incentive for writers. There can't be even one out there who isn't sure of at least one reader...

But 2000 pages! How many ladies are involved? Each with a role to play? How engrossing! The six or seven more going up and down the staircase in VISHNU could serve very nicely as a diversion.

Hi Laura. Yes, I remember reading your posts in MIDDLEMARCH, when I dropped in occasionally to follow the discussion. And very good they were too. Don't ever feel that 'not forty yet' might be a handicap aroung here. The rest of us will feel gratified if you keep us on our toes. What am I saying. This is a summer read and we're all lounging in our swing chairs in the arbour, or wherever.

Traude, how delightful to look forward to having you in the discussion. And you do agree that the book is a good choice! Do you know, did the author go on to complete the trilogy, of which VISHNU was to be the first volume? With, presumably, BRAHMA and SHIVA to follow.

But I musn't frighten away potenitial readers. This book is about middle-class India, except for the outcast on the staircase landing.

Jonathan asked:

But 2000 pages! How many ladies are involved? Each with a role to play? How engrossing!

Confession time. I misread the number of pages on that amazon page. It says 1184 which I read as 1841 and so rounded to "almost 2000 pages". Sorry about that. So, it's really only a mere 1200 pages give or take.

I am just past the first 100 pages- lots of ladies- 12 charter members of "the club" and then many others. I must say that I am reminded of MIDDLEMARCH a bit, except this is a town in Ohio just after the Civil War.

The ladies of the club love putting on "tableaux"- remember those from THE PROFESSOR'S HOUSE? At this point, they are all matching up and marrying after graduating from a women's college in town. Such a genteel age. I am becoming immersed in the characters already. So far, it's everything I hoped for.

Jonathan, is this a trilogy? I might see the other books at a sale and not recognize them. My library might have the others too. Did the author finish the other two books? Since I haven't started this one yet, I am just curious.

A good question, Hats. I've wondered about that myself, but I can't find anything more recent by Manil Suri than his DEATH OF VISHNU. I googled his website and found an interview in which he says the following: (MC being Michael Cunningham, I believe it was, and MS being Manil Suri)

'MC: Could you describe your process as a writer? Where did the inspiration for the novel come from? And how did you work on it.

MS: There actually was a person named Vishnu. The novel is set in Bombay. And it’s the story of this man who lives on a landing in an apartment building. When I was growing up Vishnu used to live on this landing below the floor that I grew up on. One year when I went back, I think it was 1995, Vishnu was very ill. And he actually died that year. I thought at that point: here’s the person who’s just died. I started writing a short story about a year later, and that was a story that I tried to end but I couldn’t end it. So it just kept progressing. I actually wrote the end right in the beginning and tried to finish it, first in one chapter, then in two, then it became a novel. So that’s how it grew, from that death.'

Isn't that spoken like a true author? Intended as a short story, and growing into a trilogy as the subject takes hold of him/her. I wonder how we will feel about it when we get to the end of DofV. Will he have us wanting more? I'm convinced we will have a wonderful time with this book. Thanks for posting. A good reminder to the world of the big happening here in August.

Thanks too, to Scootz, for the post several days ago. You seem to be bearing up very well, despite the heavy loss of 800 pages!...

Please accept my heartfelt sympathy. Thanks for the tipoff on another good India book. A FINE BALANCE. That's been on my shelf for several years. It took only a few pages to convince me that it must be a worthwhile read. It seems to me it should get a nomination in RATW.

That last sentence from the interview set a bell ringing. Of something unusual I had read recently. I've found the line:

'...while death is not a pleasant subject, it is not forbidden. Nor is it a fixed end. Death is an experience that can be shaped by the living.'

I thought, how applicable to what Suri tries to do in his book, without being in the least troublesome.

The quote is from THE POE SHADOW.

A FINE BALANCE. That's been on my shelf for several years. It took only a few pages to convince me that it must be a worthwhile read. It seems to me it should get a nomination in RATW.

Jonathan, I would adore an excuse to reread A FINE BALANCE.

Scootz and Jonathan, I would love to read A FINE BALANCE for the first time.

Jonathan, thank you for including an Manil Suri's interview.

Jonathan, that quote from "Poe's Shadow" is full of bountiful fruit. It is a quote worth memorizing. Thank you for sharing it.

"Death is an experience that can be shaped by the living."

I need to write the above words down. Matthew Pearl is so young. His words are so old with "wisdom."

I'm picking up vibes of enthusiasm in all your posts. How unfortunate that the discussion of VISHNU is still a month away.

But just like that, suddenly Bombay is in the news. The scene where the action in our book takes place. In bright red lettering, the words just jump off the page:

'Brash, messy and sexy, India's biggest city embodies the nation's ambition. How Bombay is shaping India's future - and the world's.'

That comes from the current TIME issue (July 3). An article of a dozen pages: INDIA AWAKENS. In addition to the cover, featuring an Indian beauty, who is just what I have already imagined Kavita the heroine of our book to look like! And a page headlined HOORAY FOR BOLLYWOOD. It wouldn't hurt to know a little about that.

So, I'm proposing this TIME feature story as the basis for pre-discussion posting. Some might find it a way to heighten the anticipation of reading and discussing Professor Suri's book, by pointing out this or that of interest in this 'timely' article. How's that for a cheap pun?

I believe the text comes online after a week or so. But you miss out on the pictures. And the fine map of India. There's Bombay. And there, on the other side of India is Calcutta, the place where the plagues all come from.

Jonathan, I'll try and pick up a copy of Time and get to back to you when/if I read the article.

Jonathan, thank you for telling us about the new Times issue.

Bollywood movies are long, usually, but a lot of fun. If I can afford to get this book I'll be joining the discussion.

Hi, JONATHAN.

Mal

Joanthan, I looked for the Time but the one out right now doesn't have anything Indian on the cover. (?) Sorry.

Hi, Mal!! Of course you can afford to get this book. And isn't it grand to think that you will be joining us on this literary junket. Do you know of any good Bollywood films that would be representative of the genre? And serve as an introduction for newcomers.

And what malevalent demon made you post that nonsensical link about skepticism in the Book Nook. That's not your style. I have to admit it was frightening to read about 'the organized mayhem of our dark potentialities.' And pitiful to read of what Robert McNamara has to live with.

How far are you from the flooding Susquehanna? Why didn't you join us in the Cather discussion? I remembered you when I read that she used to return to the Poconos for R&R, between books.

Hi, Scootz. Not to give up looking for that edition of Time. There are just too many surprising things about India, and Bombay, to miss it. For starters, what would attract you to that storied place? To find peace, mental tranquility, in a Rishakesh ashram in the Himalayas? Well, it turns out, India has far more than that to offer. And skepticism is unknown there.

JONATHAN, dear, I was in the Cather discussion until the cable company cut me off for non-payment of my bill. I had to eat that week, you see.

I think that's a superior article, Mister.

Can't remember a single title of Bollywood movies I've seen. The last one was great, had a wedding in it. In Bollywood movies the harmless plot goes along, and then thousands of extras and the stars belt out a 1940 type musical production number that has nothing to do with anything else. I love them, really. Ask at Blockbuster or wherever you go for movies, and rent one. You'll have yourself a really good time.

"Ah, sweet mystery of life!" Tap tap tap, cartwheel, someerwault, run down the street, climb a lamppost, kiss your partner and fling her over your head, so she lands in a split.

Like that!

Mal

That's it, Mal. The one you're talking about. The Bollywood movie mentioned in the TIME story. Monsoon Wedding. 'An ode to masti, the Punjabi intoxication with life.' Well, I think it may be the one you're thinking of. And I did manage to get a hold of an Indian film. Kama Sutra. I haven't looked at it yet.

You're right. You were in the Cather discussion. I remembered it after I logged off. I posted in a hurry. Thanks for taking the dig about the sceptic link with such grace. It was meant in good spirit, as you probably guessed

'Like that!'

What a fling! Lots of that in the PBS thing last night. Did you see it? And hour of the Dance Theater of Harlem in the East Room at the White House. The dancing. And the singing. Laura's favorite 'I'm just crazy...', with the President just beaming the whole while!

Monsoon Wedding is great.

Bend It Like Beckham has an Indian girl in it who wishes to play soccer, to her parent's dismay.

Jonathan, Harlem and the White House? What have I missed now???

I often see girls playing organized soccer in the park nearby. They are finally being given a chance. Wonderful. Too bad, if some still get opposition from their parents.

Thanks, Scootz, for the tip about Bend It Like Beckham. I've located it and Monsoon Wedding in our library system, and should be watching them in a day or two.

I can recommend another DVD, based on a book that influenced the author of The Death of Vishnu. The Sheltering Sky. Has anyone read it? About an American menage-a-trois travelling about in North Africa immediately after WWII. A most intriguing tale.

Hats, the East Room cultural evening made for easy watching and listening. Very talented dancers and singers. Just imagine a well-choreographed and well-sung Summertime from Porgy and Bess, and the same for the haunting, soothing There is a balm in Gilead.

It will be a busy weekend on both sides of the border between Canada and the USA. The First is Canada Day, and the Fourth is the neighbors'. Have a good one.

Take a few minutes to read or watch something about India, but save our book for August, when we'll all celebrate Holi together with the boy Vishnu. As he lays dying.

Uh, I've watched about 1 Bollywood or Pakistani or Afghan movie or soap a week for years and years, and I assure you there's more than one with a wedding in it. I saw Monsoon Wedding in the theater with my mom, though. We laughed until we were crying.

Mal, loved your synopsis, though. Right on target. In the past few years they've dispensed with any pretense of plot in a lot of them and just do the 40s-style musical numbers in tight clothes with Indian hip thrusts.

Kama Sutra? Well, we rent the g-rated ones Jonathan.

Kleo

Phooey or is it Pfui, I posted here this morning and it has completely disappeared, (or I posted in some strange area and it's no wonder nobody has answered me. haahhaa).

LAGAAN! The quintessential Bollywood movie of all time, I will be glad to sing the songs or play the parts or anything you'd like. Yes Bride and Prejudice also had a wedding in it, LAGAAN!!

The Time issue showing India is still in some supermarkets, I got it in the airport in Philadelphia when we were there and enjoyed reading about the rising economic status of the worlds largest democracy, very interesting! I am willing to bet it's online, too.

I was also reading about Vishnu, the real one, and finally understand one of the dances in the movie Lagaan with Radha and the Gopi, think of that.

We'll all learn a great deal in this one, I am so looking forward to it, thank you for offering it, Jonathan! That's the second time today I have said that, maybe this time it will stay? hahahaa

Kama Sutra? Have you had Ben & Jerry's Karamel Sutra? Supposedly all the movie stars nosh on it, it's to die for if you like caramel and chocolate. hahaha

Oh, Ginny ~
Karamel Sutra? You are unique!
I'm so glad you will be in this group; I'm sure everyone will enjoy your wit and humor!
she said, bucking for an A in Latin

Actually, my favorite Ben & Jerry is frozen yogurt, Cherry Garcia.
Just in case anyone wants to FAX some to me! Happy 4th of July to everyone!

Kleo! I was hoping you would drop in. I could have benefited from your knowledge of Indian films. Naturally I was surprised by the content of Kama Sutra. Not that I was disappointed, far from it, in fact I feel I now could show a better appreciation for some Hindu temple facades with their celebration of the rituals of life. There is also, the author tells us, a hidden calculus in his book. Perhaps you could help us find it. Please come back.

Ginny! Welcome, welcome! What an amazing feat. To get Kama into a frozen state. Is it a breakthrough? A desecration? Regardless, Ben & Jerry's, here I come. Perhaps they could cater to us during the discussion. Do they have any other sutra flavors?

Mippy, we'll make sure there's plenty of Cherry Garcia. But the Latin...you may want to drop that, after you've had a taste of Sanskrit. Happy 4th!

Hi Jonathan, I remember the Ghandi discussion. I did not take part. Now I regret missing the discussion. Of course, I can read over it in the Archives.

Jonathan, while reading 'The Death of Vishnu,' did Ghandi or his way of life enter your thoughts?

By the way, I haven't started reading 'The Death of Vishnu' yet. I am very anxious to read it. Is it too early to ask about how the people in India view death? In India is death welcomed? In America, death is not a topic easy to discuss. Some Americans find facing the fact of death difficult. Do the cultures differ in their way of looking at death?

I remember many conversations about Elizabeth Kubler Ross. She boldly talked about death and dying. I have always wanted to read her biography. My own struggles with the death of loved ones and my future death have kept me from reading her books. Perhaps, 'The Death of Vishnu' will give me a feeling of peace about what must come into my life.

Kublerross

I hope it is alright to give this website.

A hidden calculus? I think the author is a mathematician, but specializes in partial differential equations. Easier on the layman, intuitively, than calculus, in spite of being introduced as an upper division math course. I'll be glad to babble about calculus, though, or partial differential equations, or ordinary ones if anyone cares for them.

I'm going to try to read the book first before I decide on the discussion.

Kleo

I am sorry. I did not spell Gandhi's name correctly.

"It's about the life, and death, of one called Vishnu. A happy story in some ways, but then it takes place in Bombay, and not in Calcutta. Bombay is after all the home of Bollywood moviemaking, which is transforming India as quickly as Hollywood changed America."

Jonathan, this is your quote from the Book Nook about 'The Death of Vishnu.' I missed it earlier. Now, after reading your post, I fear my Elizabeth Kubler Ross clickable is not needed here nor a conversation about Gandhi.

I should have remained on track. So, I did find the Times article. It's on the web.

I did find the Times article. It's on the web.

It's nice to share.

I like to share. It is fun.

hats!

LOL, I meant it would be nice for you to share the article, since I've been looking for it. If you could even just tell me the title of the article, I may be able to find it myself.

Duuuh! Scootz, I'm sorry. Wait one minute.

Scootz, sorry I didn't pick up on the hint. Sometimes I'm pretty goofy.

I'm printing it out to read later on. Thanks, hats!!

Hats, is it any wonder that you are such an asset to every discussion in which you take part? Thanks for the link to the Bombay link. It serves very nicely as a little introduction to the locale of the book's action. What strikes me is the huge contrast between the new India and the old, old India of our out-dated perceptions. It makes me wonder if the author found it perturbing, and decided to write a book about it.

Thanks, too, for the Kubler-Ross link. I'm hoping this book will provoke all kinds of thoughtful reactions. And since death is part of the title, its perfectly in order to speculate about its meaning in the writer's artistic vision. And who's to say whether the Vishnu in he story could, as everyman's servant, not be imagined as a Gandhi? As for death, without anticipating anything, aren't we all aware that for many people death is something like a revolving door. But it's not what goes around that comes around. There's a transformation.

Kleo, I doubt very much that you will be able to read this book without wanting to say something about its content. It's very discussable. Is it okay for a mathematician to look for a little faith outside his equations?

Cathie, don't put it off. Read it now.

Ah, Jonathan, that's the beauty of math to some: it requires no faith at all.

Kleo

Ok I read the article about Bombay. I don't know there was much there I wasn't already aware of except maybe specific statistics on things. Interesting, though.

When does DEATH OF VISHNU take place?

When my f2f group read A FINE BALANCE, I talked about it so much that my husband asked an Indian associate at work about it. He highly recommended that we see the movie "City of Joy" with Patrick Swayze and said that it was very true to how India really was, and I imagine he would know. I was very, very lucky to find the video on a clearance table at Blockbuster because it's not easy to get. But everything talked about in A FINE BALANCE was in that movie to see. If you can find this film, do see it. the story isn't much, but seeing India as it is is. (feeling a bit like Bill Clinton there)

Correction- apparently not so hard to get. here it is for dirt cheap used at amazon. CITY OF JOY, btw, is also a book.

CITY OF JOY

Scootz, thank you for the link.

I haven't read the article yet. I will read it this evening.

Right on Kleo. So what is the mathematician (the author) looking for among the fabulous wonders of his Mother India? Is he missing something in his life? On the other hand, the Indian mind seems to have an aptitude for things mathematical, as the world is beginning to see.

The Death of Vishnu portrays a contemporary India, Scootz. At the same time it's hard to imagine it happening in the Bombay described in the TIME article. Perhaps not. Perhaps not much that's new, and that should be surprising. This is the new India. Take your investment capital when you go there, not your existential problems as so many did in the sixties. By and large, I guess, conquerors have always come for the riches of India.

I enjoyed watching Bend It Like Beckam. More so because I was waiting for the Italy/Germany game to begin yesterday. What a dazzling finish and avoiding one of those damn shootouts. But back to the DVD. Surely Jess's mother was right in feeling that her daughter would be better prepared for life knowing how to make chapatis and samosas than having it said about her that she has the balls to play soccer...

It won't be a secret for long that it's probably something like bad chapatis that are killing Vishnu.

And now to look for City of Joy. And the one Ginny recommended.

Let me draw your attention to the 'Author's Note.'

'Although the persons and events depicted in this novel are fictional, the central character was inspired by a man named Vishnu who lived on the steps of the apartment building in which I grew up. He died in August 1994 on the same landing he had occupied for many years.'

As one Afghan-American mother said about her athlete daughter, "She has sisters and a mother and grandmothers and aunties, why does she need to make samosas? And how many of them can play soccer?"

I don't know that you have to be missing something in particular to seek the spiritual. Most mathematicians I know have great respect for those seeking the spiritual in their lives. Math and ghosts go well together, imo. India is at the roots of mathematics.

Maybe he is seeking something, the author that is. Jonathan, I like the way you encourage great digressions in your discussions--the detectives were going to drive me batty in Red but I knew you would give them their say, not because they earned it (which they did), but because you honored everyone's experience. In my opinion you undersell yourself as a discussion leader. You're perfect for the culturally obscure, difficult literature of South Asia. Thanks for taking on the job.

Kleo

Jonathan, I would love to take this time to compliment you too. I know you are a wonderful Discussion Leader. You are very, very knowlegeable. You become a part of the people and the places in a book.

Your posts in "My Name is Red" are unforgettable. Your words very poetic, hypnotizing. Gently you led the readers through unknown streets to a new world. At times I felt jittery, frightened, lost in Turkey. You, never lost your cool bearing. You slowly, patiently continued along the way until I heard myself whispering, "This is good. This is delightful. This is an experience I might never have again." Like a tour guide who loves his job pointing out the sights and sounds and answering questions, you brought us happily and wanting more of Istanbul to the end of our journey. Kleo is right. You have a gift for awakening us to the "culturally obscure."

I am so anxious for you to lead another tour. Jonathan, I know Vishnu's death is in the best of hands. I think any death is one to handle with light humor and with caring love.

I hope this quotation by John Donne fits here. It is one of my favorite quotes.

I hope this quotes can fit here. I love this quotation.

"No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee." by John Donne

Kleo, thank you for giving us the chance to applaud Jonathan.

Hats ~
You have been writing about death, but IMHO, this book is about life.
Jonathan ~
My plaudits to you, as well. I hope its not anticipating too much to say the novel is about the trials and arguments and aspirations of the characters who live around and about the house where Vishnu lived. The death is not the only story.

I hope more readers will join us to discover this outstanding author.

Mippy, I will take your word for it. I haven't started the book yet. I have only read the synopsis of the book. I just find it amazing that a man lie dying on the staircase landing. I am sure it will end up about "life." Can we disconnect death from life? Death seems to teach the living so much. Also, so many believe in a life after death of some sort. So, I do not doubt your words.

Perhaps, I have said too much about "death." If I have said too much about death, I will try very hard with your help and the other posters and Jonathan to get back on track, the right track.

Usually, I wait and start the book with the group. Maybe that is a bad idea or a not so good idea. Maybe I should change and start the book beforehand. It doesn't hurt to change.

Mippy, by the way, if you read John Donne's quote closely, it is about life. It's about how the living should appreciate every single human being as worthy to society.

Also, so many believe in a life after death of some sort.

My husband was apparently reading that Time article in the sauna at the Y this past weekend. He was telling me that Hindus believe in reincarnation. For them, you are rewarded in the next life if you do good things in this life. Higher caste members are rewarded for previous lives, and vice versa for lower caste members, not rewarded for doing bad things. So, the higher caste members cannot be criticized since they are being rewarded. Once you are born into a caste, you can never get higher in this life.

Scootz, thanks. The views of the Hindus are very interesting. I remember, for years, hearing Shirley Maclaine talk about reincarnation.

Back to Hinduism, that's very interesting about Higher and lower caste and their places in the hereafter or in reincarnation. I wonder if reincarnation will come up in the novel.

Here is some info on Hinduism and reincarnation. I'm going to print it out to read later when I get a chance.

Hinduism/Reincarnation

Namaste.

Definition & Meaning of Namaste, pronounced Nam-a-stay

I honor the place in you
in which the entire Universe dwells,

I honor the place in you
which is of Love, of Truth, of Light and of Peace,

When you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
we are One.

-Namaste above by Spiritual Cinema

"Namaste is an Indian expression used as a greeting or upon parting, by putting
the palms of the hands together in prayer position. It means, 'I honor the
Spirit in you which is also in me.'

"This, of course, is also a way of saying, 'I recognize that we are all equal.' ”

-Namaste above by Deepak Chopra

Today at 8:30 a.m. I was seated outside in my wheelchair waiitng for a Shared Ride bus, equipped with a lift, that would take me from very chilly Mount Pocono to Stroudsburg and the Pain Management Center. There's long been a variety of pain for me, the most recent from a rotator cuff tear in my right shoulder. Each time I've gone for this treatment I've been treated by a different doctor -- the first Korean, the second's name is Khan like Kubla or Genghis, and today the doctor was Kulbin Walia, MD.

What a gentle, peaceful soul he is. (And those cortisone shots between the bones in the shoulder hurt!)

I could tell from his red turban that he is a Sikh (click the link), so immediately told him we are reading and discussing The Death of Visnu. Dr. Walia was very, very surprised. He asked me what interested me about India. I said, "Its ancient culture, art, music, mathematics, the people."

He talked a little about India, mourning the great poverty that exists, and the children who are affected.

I told him I like Bollywood films, and he told me about one -- perhaps it's been mentioned here already. It has won all kinds of awards and is named "Black". Click the link, watch the trailer, and then scroll down and read the synopsis. I'm going to try to buy it soon, and will post here about it after I see it.

After I met and talked with this very nice human being, I sat outside in the sun for 2 hours and 20 minutes waiting for the Shared Ride to come and transport me home. While I waited I watched people and thought about them and read some of Girl in Hyacinth Blue by Susan Vreeland. With the Indian mode of mind I was in and this book, the world was full of sound and color, from a milky white sky to honey-colored socks on a man to a crimson tee shirt on somebody else to glorious olive green soft velour on a woman passing by.

The bus came, took me back on top of my little mountain and dropped me at the supermarket pharmacy where I bought yet another prescription for medicine, picking up some potatoes and an onion to go with the little piece of swordfish I'm cooking for my dinner. I arrived home at my own speed (6 mph in the electric wheelchair) at 2:30 p.m,, still full of thoughts of life in India.

Mal

Mal, my emotions have been stirred over and over today. Thank you for the clip of "Black." I will look forward to seeing it. I read the synopsis also. The last lines moved me. What a lot to think about.

"Black is the cathartic tale of a deaf, mute and blind girl who saw what people with sight fail to see ¨¢ a vision of her God."

Thanks so much for pointing us toward the Time article on India. I just checked the magazine out of the library today and see that I have some interesting reading ahead of me.

One thought that I am going to keep in mind as I read this article and, subsequently, the book, comes from a book I recently read by Alvin Toffler, Revolutionary Wealth. In it, the author comments on the evolution of societies and countries. Until recent history, countries were agrarian and people provided for themselves mainly by themselves. Then, with the Industrial Revolution, companies provided goods and services for people to buy with money they earned performing a relatively specific, routinized, and mechanized tasks. Now, some countries are undergoing a new revolution, a knowledge revolution. People are knowledge workers who work with information and creativity rather than things and monotony.

How does this tie to India, you ask? Well, the author comments that in some countries, specifically India and China, the industrial revolution and the knowledge revolution are going on at the same time. This is different from much of the industrialized world, where the movement from agrarian to industrial to knowledge societies occurred sequentially. Consequently, China and India are countries of great contrast, depending on where you are physically in the country, or even within region.

I expect I will read a lot about contrast in the article…

A poet friend of mine wrote this poem about his doctor son's stay in India.

TRAIN FROM MUMBAI
by James Fowler

Migration Histories: INDIA

INDIA TODAY magazine on the Net

THE HINDU. India's national newspaper

CONSUMED BY HUNGER

Thanks to all of you for your posts. Together they hold out a lot of promise for the upcoming discussion.

Kleo, for suggesting that we might find mathematical certainty as well as myth in the Hindu pantheon of divinities.

Hats, for allowing herself to speculate about what's between the covers of this book. That cannot be off-topic. Quite the contrary.

Mippy, for her attempt to reign in Hat's imagination. Or finding the fine balance in the book between life and death?

Scootz, for solving the whole problem with the info in the article about reincarnation!

Laura, for being on the lookout for contrast. Doesn't that describe India in one word?

Mal, for her great selection of links. And for giving us the word namaste, with its meanings. A friendly gesture. I noticed it being made numerous times while watching Monsoon Wedding. So that's what it is called.

Thanks too for the other links. A fine poem by James Fowler. But I'll bet that now there's a lot of nail chewing in Bombay, as well as in New York. They have a market there too, with its ups and downs.

The paintings by Indian artists are charming. Including, of course, one of the Taj Mahal. Looking at it this time, all I could see in it was the math. And the fact that Shiva was the name of one of the artists. Like our own Vishnu, with a devout mother, of course.

On to the link to The Hindu, India's national newspaper. And what is almost the first headline I see? 'Pride at stake at Germany-Portugal match.'! It's already underway. I'm out of here. Hope I didn't forget anyone.

Bomb Blast Today in India

MarjV, I have been hearing about this terrible incident on the news.

For a little background on India, and Bombay, or Mumbai, I had just started reading Black Friday, by S. Hussain Zaidi, about the similar serial blasts in 1993, in Bombay. What bloody madness.

Jonathan, thank you for the title.

Pictures of India, including a view of a paanwalla

"dal = dhaal = dhal = dhall = daal Notes: Dal is the Indian term for peas, beans, or lentils that have been split and often skinned, but the name is sometimes used for all lentils, peas, or beans, or to cooked dishes made with them. Split lentils don't hold their shape well, so they're often cooked into soups or purées."

CLICK HERE for DAL

CLICK HERE for GHEE

RECIPES of INDIA

I kind of thought that Ghee was akin to the French roulex. Obviously, that is not the case.

"Garam Masala which literally means hot (Garam) spice (Masala) is not an spice in itself.
It is a spice blend used throughout India and the rest of the Indian Subcontinent."

GARAM MASALA

FOOD TOUR of INDIA

VISWANAGAR pictures

LORD VISHNU

The Lord Vishnu should go easier on the chalky powder.

INDIA TODAY

Massacre in Mumbai from OPEN DEMOCRACY

BOMBAY. A PHOTO ESSAY. Click photo to access the next

Trying Really Hard to Like India: a 5 part article in Slate

In India how significant is the color red? Does red carry more importance than other colors?

Baby name, Indian boy

Baby name, Indian girl

Potato samosa recipe, Indian vegetarian snack

The color RED, India, myths and significance

I am just popping by to say that I am looking forward to August 1. I'm reading the book now and hope to be finished by then as I have three books to read for September.

As I already mentioned, I love books set in India -this one is surprsisingly humorous, whilst being very sad as well.

OT-I might mention here, even though I know this isn't the place- I am in a very bad emotional state at the moment. After 30 years married, I discovered just last week that my husband was obviously libvining some sort of double life. I filed for divorce Friday. I am able to read about 20 pages a day right now and so hope to finish and be able to join the group. I feel that I have made a few friends here and, although this is no one's business but my own, one dear person did contact me to ask where I'd been so I felt I might feel comfy to tell you all what's happening with me. I just turned 56 last week as well.

I hope I can take part because every little bit of contact helps. Blessings to you all.

I prefer not to talk about this on the board any further, but anyone, at any tim, is welcome to email me.

I just discovered last night that my copy of DEATH OF VISHNU is signed my Manil Suri.

I was unsure about the religious breakdown in India, so here it is for anyone interested:

India — Religion: 80% Hindu, 14% Muslim, 2.4% Christian, 2% Sikh, 0.7% Buddhist, 0.5% Jains, 0.4% other

Hopefully, this is more or less up to date. If not, I'm sure someone will correct me.

I brought "The Death of Vishnu" with me to te Montreal Bash, but was so busy I didn't get any reading done.

I'll start it as soon as I get home. It looks to be very interesting as well as informative.

The Death of Vishnu is not really about death, nor is it about the god VISHNU (This is a link to an article about Vishnu). It is. as someone suggested, about people, all kinds of people, who believe various different things.

If you look up every reference in this book, you'd find yourself very knowledgeable about India. Like Jains, for example.

My first introduction to Jainism was when we were reading and discussing Our Oriental Heritage, by Will and Ariel Durant, in the Story of Civilization discussion. "Compassion for all life, human and non human, is central to Jainism. Human life is valued as a unique, rare opportunity to reach enlightenment, and to kill any person, no matter what crime he may have committed, is unimaginably abhorrent." Non-human life is also valued. Jains put cloths over their nose and mouth to keep from inhaling or swallowing insects, and to prevent bacteria they might be carrying from making their way to other organisms.

Which religion is it that has its believers place the dead on a high place so vultures can dispose of the bodies naturally? I first read about this in John Irving's A Son of the Circus. Has anyone here read that book?

The Death of Vishnu is not a book I'll soon forget. I must write to Dr. Walia, the Sikh from India whom I met at the Pain Management Clinic in East Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania, and tell him how much I've enjoyed reading it.

I can't wait for this discussion to begin.

Mal

Scootz, who knows if it is current, but it's a good feel for India's religions. Among others there are Jews and B'ahais in India. My sister and I a babysitter when we were children who is Indian Jewish woman who came to America and married a Brooklyn Jew, the son of Polish immigrants. She was a wonderful woman who kept strictly kosher, which made eating at her house an interesting experience.

Mal, is the author a Sikh? Or are you just sharing India? I'm glad you're so hyped. I got the book used a couple of days ago.

A friend of mine just got back from India visiting the city with all the Jain temples. It sounded fascinating.

Kleo

You're so right, Marilyn. It's amazing how much of Indian culture and myth, along with the everyday, Manil Suri manages to weave into his entertaining read. It would be easy to retrace the Bombay walks done be one of the book's characters by following the references.

I've been away for a while, so it's really gratifying to come back to this enthusiasm and anticipation for the upcoming discussion. Thanks to everyone who has stopped by with a post.

Andrea has dropped by to rave about Vishnu! You ain't seen nothing yet. Check out the brass versions. I really took to a Lakshmi I found in one of Mal's links, so now she decorates my computer.

Hats, your question about the use and meaning of red in the book made me smile. Me too. That's what Orhan Pamuk did to us with his RED book. I wonder if we'll get out of Bombay alive? Istanbul was a close call.

Pat, it must have been tough for you in Montreal, having to choose between Vishnu and the Bash. Between life and death.

Scootz! Our blythe spirit! How could you be so lucky to get an autographed book!

And all you others who are looking forward to the discussion. Who made it possible. Anyone prepared to say it's like no other book they've ever read? Well, that can wait.

I'll get to work on a schedule, and have it up in a few days. We may not need any. This was intended as a light, casual, summer read, with no pressure. Wouldn't it be surprising if it turned out to be life- and mind-altering?

Kleo, I've just seen your post. God, or any Hindu divinity, I'm pleased to know you're along for this one.

And talk about an eating experience. The new folks on the block had a few of us neighbors over for an Indian barbecue Saturday night. Among other delectable things I got to enjoy a samosa! Can you believe this. He was born in Bombay. I must get to know him better.

Marilyn, I believe it's the Jains who practice tree-top burial. There was something in the news about that just the other day. Something about the disappearing vultures. Some say Jains have the loveliest temples.

Malryn said: The Death of Vishnu is not really about death, nor is it about the god VISHNU (This is a link to an article about Vishnu). I haven't read much, but I have to disagree with both these concepts. It is about death and it is about Vishnu. directly or indirectly, it's about both.

BTW- there seems to be about three ladies here who all have very similar marilyn malryn and whatever names. Sorry if I can't keep you straight but it's way confusing.

Cathie

CATHIE S:

JONATHAN calls me by my real name, Marilyn. We've been friends for a long time. As you see from the line below my SeniorNet user name, which is Malryn, I am also known by family and other friends as Mal.

Those weren't concepts, CATHIE, they're opinions for anyone to grab onto and expand. Or throw in the garbage. Whatever. It's all right with me.

KLEO:

I don't know anything about Manil Suri's beliefs. You may have missed the message I posted after I met Dr. Walia the other week at the Pain Management Center. Dr. Walia is the Sikh who gave me a cortisone shot in the rotator cuff of my right shoulder, and told me about the award-winning film called "Black." I haven't been able to find the DVD yet; had hoped to watch it before this discussion began.

See you in August.

MAYBE.

Mal

Thanks Marcie and Jonathan for the welcome. To answer your question on how I found the group.... I just initiated a Google search for "on-line" book clubs and landed here. Seemed like a good fit.

Being a newbie, I'm not sure how this all works. I did purchase the book, I thought that sounded like a good start

and I'm ready to go.

Lea Ann

Lea Ann, it's good to hear from you. May your first encounter with this congenial group turn out to be just as you say, 'a good start'. My guess is that this summer read is going to be very relaxed and casual. The book reads effortlessly, but is nevertheless very provocative.

I live in Sikh country. I think California's Central Valley has the largest population of Hmong and the largest population of Sikhs outside of their native land. I think the first Sikh temple built in the US was somewhere nearby almost 100 years ago.

Kleo

I read a book a long while back about the Hmongs. It told about their difficulties in assimulating in the US especially the hardship of dealing with the medical world: different cultural beliefs, not enough translators. The book is really good. I will try and find the title.

The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down: A Hmong Child, Her American Doctors, and the Collision of Two Cultures by Anne Fadiman

Hmongs

I am not sure what the Hmongs have to do with THE DEATH OF VISHU.

They don't have anything to do with Vishnu that I know of, Hats. I mention them because it is interesting living in California's Central Valley with its unusual immigrant populations, the Sikhs who've been here for a hundred years, and the Hmong for 25.

Kleo

I have to admit that I knew nothing until now about the Laotians known as Hmongs. It certainly is strange to read about this strange clash between Western medical culture and the spiritual traditions of the Hmongs. Perhaps it's not so strange when one remembers that epilepsy has always been such puzzling thing. It could contribute to the discussion of VISHNU if it left one more open-minded to new ideas, with greater sympathy for the beliefs and traditions of strangers.

Thanks Jonathan. In reading some of the messages I see some folks have already read the book. Are we suppose to read the book before August, then discuss? Do we read certain chapters each week, then discuss?, or is it just an open forum?

L.A.

I haven't read the book yet. I have read a few chapters. I hope Jonathan will give us a chapter schedule.

I'm just finishing up "A Walk in the Woods" Bryson, I'll be ready to start on Vishnu

L.A.

L.A., the Bryson book left me feeling happy as well. Any account of walking the Appalachian Trail does that for me. In fact, all my life I've been saying to myself, next year the Appalachian.

But it's the second chapter that strikes terror in the bravest heart. What to do if you meet a bear in the woods! And just this week we've heard about the man and his dog encountering a black bear in Northern Ontario. Dog alerts man to bear following them. Dog, a pit bull, goes after bear. Bear sinks his teeth into dogs back. Man leaps on to bear's back wielding his hunting knife, and plunges it into bear's throat again and again. Bear dead. Dog recovering. Dog's best friend, man, has returned to bush to fetch his canoe.

Reading the book before discussion is optional. The best group, I feel, includes some who have read it all, and some who start reading when the discussion begins. And, of course, others who are all over the place. Keeps everybody on their toes. Impossible to say who gets the most out of the book.

For the sake of structure, it's helpful to divide the book into fairly equal, weekly segments, and permit everyone to range about in that segment. A schedule to that effect will be up in a day or two.

Hats, I do look forward to hearing how you will feel about this book. How did you feel about the scheduling of MY NAME IS RED? That was a tough one, given the unusual writing style. I was about to throw my hands up, when I realized that with 59 chapters, we would have to get through it at two a day. I'm going to propose it again in a year or two. I felt all along that the odd chapters weren't getting an even break.

I'm inclined to letting arithmetic do it for us again with THE DEATH OF VISHNU. It's simple. With 16 chapters, it would take two days for each to get us to our destination. Howzat?

Jonathan, that looks like a small word problem. Frightening. Are you saying in two days you expect us to read eight chapters per day? I can't read that fast. I am up to chapter four. Your wish is my command. I will read four more chapters tonight. I love the book. It's odd.

I interpret Jonathan's statement about the schedule to mean that we discuss Chapter One on days 1 and 2, Chapter Two on days 3 and 4, etc. Sounds good to me. I have completed the book, so I am agreeable with just about any schedule.

Laura, thank you for doing the math. My mind went blank.

Jonathan," I am so sorry. I added words to "each." Reading the sentence as "each of us." Now I feel totally better. It's a nice easy going pace. I can breathe.

Yes, Hats, odd, indeed. But what an interesting book.
I'm not sure if I like it, but I will participate, nevertheless.
I've read about half of the book, then I stopped, so that I don't have to re-read
the whole book for the discussion.

Jonathan ~ Which of the many links do you suggest we review during these days before we start?

Thanks Jonathan, Living in the West, I've really enjoyed the adventure, the history, the educational aspect of the AT, let alone his entertaining style of writing. I'm in awe of anyone who could hike even a portion of the trail.

I'll finish the last chapter tonight and then take a peek at Vishnu. I'm anxious to get started!

I'm glad to hear about the schedule. I've never been in a book club at all, I had no idea how it would work.

L.A.

That's a tough one, Mippy. Isn't it like planning a journey? Some like to know what they will be seeing. Others want to be surprised when they get there. Even if it means finding out, as Gertrude Stein did, that there is no there, there.

That could hardly be said about the little world of Vishnu. No doubt it would help to know something about Indian culture in its broadest sense. I'm counting on group members to fill in the blanks on folkways and the marvellous Indian heritage of civilizing thought and imagination. The author says the book was written in the spirit of the Bhagavad-Gita. That as we all know is one of those 'living truth' books that are so inspiring on all occasions along the way.

But the book is a simple tale, or many tales, Suri really piles them on, with enough of human interest in each to make the book a perfect summer read. Sixteen chapters, divided into eighty-six charming vignettes, some, little gems of prose poetry. Bring a lively imagination.

L.A. - how do these discussions work? After five years I still wonder about that myself. I do know that everyone enjoys having a new voice come along. One can get hooked on this happy way of sharing the delights of reading a book.

Thanks, Jonathan.
I suppose I didn't really expect an answer. I'm just going to wait for the 1st and see what happens.
Have a nice weekend!

Jonathan, I love your description of the book. It is fascinating how we learn so much about these families living in an apartment building. I also find it interesting how one man's life touched so many lives. It is also uniquely different to find myself chuckling while I read the book, knowing a man's life is dripping away on the staircase. My mind seems split between the sacred and the profane.

I am enjoying the book. This is a new author for me. It is fun to read something totally different from the mainstream novel.

I agree with you Mippy. I'm pretty Kinged, Koontzed and Patterson'd out right now.

I was thrilled to find this group and have a book suggested that I more than likely would not find on my own. BTW - I snuck in a couple of chapters last night - so far so good.

L.A.

Oops, Sorry, Hats, not Mippy (my last reply message)

No problem. I am just glad you are here. I hope you will remain for a long time. Seniornet is wonderful.

I've allowed myself to get such a lump in my throat. Then again, when the author gave a public reading to a Bombay audience, they were practically rolling in the aisles with laughter. Did they recognize themselves?

Funny? I thought that at first, but then it just got pathetic. I finished it this morning.

I'm happy to be done with it and ready to move onto to something more uplifting.

I am not finished yet. From the very beginning of the book I laughed. Due to Manil Suri's writing talent, I could never deny that Vishnu needed help desperately. So, in the pit of my stomach I had a feeling of emotional pain for this man. At the same time I felt amazement and wanted to know what had brought this culture, these people to the point of arguing over responsibility while Vishnu breathes his last. The book, for me, is bringing forth a mixture of emotions.

Please don't tell the ending. I am a slow reader.

Jonathan, that is really interesting about the Bombay audience "rolling in the aisles" with laughter. I think they did recognize themselves. Seeing ourselves truthfully portrayed, usually, is really funny.

It's like when comedians truthfully portray a politician, you can't hep but laugh.

I think the audience in India deserve great credit for the ability to laugh at themselves. I admit to being slightly uncomfortable with jokes about another race's cultural ideas. Are we more "stiff" in America, not yet comfortable with ourselves? Maybe this is just my personal problem.

"....Reading Manil Suri's ambrosial first novel, The Death of Vishnu, affords an aesthetic pleasure akin to the gustatory one of eating an Indian mango...eloquent, refined, and tasteful."

I like how the reviewer likens the novel to the taste of foods.

Please don't tell the ending. I am a slow reader.

I have never done anything even remotely like that before, and am not about to start now. I'd never give plot details away. Rest easy. Actually, I probably won't even be participating much at all.

Cathie, why not? Your posts are always extremely interesting.

hats-

For the same reason that I didn't participate in TEACHER MAN, I probably won't in this group very much. I didn't like the book at all, still less the characters. I don't like to post and complain day after day- I'd rather just not take part and let others who liked it enjoy it. It's just a personal thing with me- I hate it when others do it, and I won't do it myself. Disliking it a bit is one thing but I really hated it and the people in it. Nuff said. I'll read the posts and chime in at the end of the month.

The damage is done, Cathie. The best we can hope for now is a salvage operation. Or, at least to give the book a decent burial. Drop in often to help with the mopping up. The obsequies. You're right, the book gets downright pathetic in places.

Hats, we all love you for your insights. You're also right about the book. It forces one to take stock of ones sensibilities. It has a Jane Austen kind of style to it. We'll have to be careful to laugh in the right places. A time to laugh, and a time to cry...that's what the book is all about.

Thank you, Cathie, for being so candid with us. I think you're going to be the life of this discussion.

I've read quite a long way into the book but am leaving it at this point until the discussion catches up to me. I find it fascinating - some of it is hilarious and other parts tragic. I see that I have a lot to learn about the differing religous beliefs in India

Someone a while back suggested the movie "Black". I found it in our library. The first part was really lifted nearly whole from the Helen Keller story, but as the little girl grew up it became all its own thing - I really enjoyed it - especially the lead played by Bachchan, a super actor. Many thanks to whoever suggested it!!!

Cathie, I understand what you are saying. I will keep my fingers crossed for you to chime in. Remember those crumbs???

Yes hats, I remember the crumbs and I'll keep them in mind- thanks, you're very sweet!

Thanks for dropping by. How high have you gone on this Indian staircase? It sounds like the 'religious beliefs' level. We'll do our best to catch up with you, once we can tear ourselves away from the rich sights and sounds and smells of Vishnu's landing. Dear me. Perhaps it's only the crumbs we're getting down here.

Welcome to the discussion of Manil Suri's The Death of Vishnu. At long last. And the story begins with the little ritual that Mrs Asrani performs every morning. A cup of tea for Vishnu.

The author's flair for the dramatic is what struck me first about his tale. The way he quickly sets the scene for everything that follows. And the reader is placed in the position of the fly on the wall. At least one gets the feeling that one is getting the straight goods. One would expect nothing less from an author who is also a professor of mathematics. No doubt a lot of deducing, equating and formulating, and other such problem-solving processes went into plotting the human and divine interplay into which his characters are hurled.

So there's drama galore. Not to mention the wonderful irony that adds so much zest to the drama. What a cup of tea can do for a dying man! What Mrs Asrani trys so hard to prevent, arousing Vishnu with her moving about, is made inevitable by the heavenly cardamon and clove scented tea. With that Vishnu lives again. Mrs Asrani has just made it impossible for Vishnu to let go.

Strange. How she steals the first scene. What a well-defined character Suri sketches with a few short paragraphs. A man lies dying. For her, it is 'what a mess', and 'such a mess'!

What can one say to that?

I think Mrs. Asrani gave Vishnu tea because she felt she had to, not because she wanted to. She did not want to be accused of letting a man die on the steps of her building without any help/comfort from her or her family. That would look bad to the neighborhood.

I found this idea comically sad. There seems to be a lot of interest in and energy expended to keep up with the neighbors and not look bad as compared to the neighbors, much more so than in the U.S.

Mrs. Asrani is described as being "cocooned" in her sari. She is also standing above Vishnu. "Cocooned" and "above" can describe, maybe, Mrs. Asrani's character. She likes to feel superior and safe.

Mrs. Asrani does not want to come close to this living "mess." Vishnu has become like litter on her stairwell. To make matters worse Vishnu is losing control of his body functions. He has thrown up and soiled himself.

Already Manil Suri, through Mrs. Asrani's character makes me deal with important questions like control, security, responsibility.

What I want t know is: Who is Vishnu? Is he just an ordinary guy left to die on a landing in an apartment house in India? Or is he an incarnation of the great god Vishnu?

And these landings, what are they? In HInduism are there stairs to climb and landings where people can rest, on their way through samsara, until they finally reach Nirvana?

There are times when I wish I could shed my American, Judeo-Christian skin and soul so I'd be able to understand stuff like this.

Mal

How nice of you all to come in and get this discussion rolling. We're off to a good start when so many questions, impressions, and speculations are tossed into the ring.

Why was Mrs Asrani coming along with a cup of tea for Vishnu? As a matter of fact, she has been doing it every morning for the last eleven years. Vishnu must think it comes with the turf as handyman. (In his divine form, no doubt, he accepts this offering from Mrs. Asran as a sign of her devotion.) And after eleven years it has taken on a moral dimension for her. It's become a ritual. If she does not bring it, heaven knows what may befall her. She thinks 'repercussions' if she becomes neglectful. There's something 'propitious' in it for her. Does all this make her a spiritual being on her way up with the others, or just superstitious?

In the meantime, she is very cautious about the risk of infection. Both germs and smell are held at bay, by covering her nose with her sari. Goodness knows what this sick man may be spreading.

Stairs and landings, samsara and Nirvana. This is going to be a trip. Actually, I think it's great theater. Mrs Asrani, with her sari to her nose. Vishnu's nose catching the aroma of the 'offering'.

'The steam rises lazily from the surface of the tea. It is thick with the aroma of boiled milk, streaked with the perfume of cardamon and clove. It wisps and curls and rises and falls, tracing letters from some fleeting alphabet.'

'some fleeting alphabet'? how suggestive

And then come the memories of other teatimes in Vishnu's life. In the tin-and-cardboard hut, with his mother. With Padmini, in the brothel. And young Kavita Asrani bringing the tea when her mother was ill for a month. Kavita, 'passing the kettle from hand to hand so as to not burn her fingers.' It's been a good life for Vishnu.

But for all the world he lays dying, in a very theatrical pose, his body molded to the curve of the landing, the one hand reaching upward to a higher step. Unconscious, immortal longings? And Mrs Asrani has put the cup out of reach!

"A member of the Hindu trinity, the god Vishu is the sustainer of the universe, the center between Brahma, the creator, and Shiva, the destroyer."

I can see the dying Vishnu symbolic for the center of his universe between Mrs. Pathak and Asrani, Mr. and Mrs. Jalall and their son, Mr. Taneja, and Kavita. In turn I see each of the other characters symbolic of various classes of people. These characters represent not only people living in India, but throughout the world. After all doesn't everyone have the same emotions about life and death to some degree or another.

To me Mrs. Asrani represents the person who feels it is her duty to do the rituals of her daily life, but really doesn't enjoy doing her duty. She sees only what is on the surface rather than looking for a deeper meaning. She sees the dying Vishu as an impoverished alcoholic who just happens to be dying on "her" stairwell. She doesn't see what lays beneath the visible man.

Mal, I had your same questions in mind while reading. This morning I listened to the interview Jonathan placed in the heading. Michael Cunningham, the writer of The Hours is interviewing Manil Suri, the author of The Death of Vishnu.

From what I can understand the steps where Vishnu lie lead upward, each step is a way upward in the stages of Hinduism. Also, each person or persons is also involved in this changing and upward way out of the struggles of life and onto Nirvana or Enlightenment.

I think Vishnu will have a lot to do with the spiritual being, Vishnu. I am looking at the dedication, I guess you would call it, in the front of the book.

I am Vishnu striding among sun gods,
the radiant sun among lights...
I stand sustaining the entire world
with a fragment of my being." (From Krishna's discourse to ...The Bhagavad-Gita).

What is interesting also is this staircase has been Vishnu's home for eleven years. Vishnu is not a stranger to Mrs. Asrani. This time Vishnu is ill, near death. The duty, in so many words, has become unhealthily dangerous. Now between the cup and Mrs. Asrani's hand is a slip of paper for protection from disease.

Vishnu finds himself dragging upward to reach the tea. He can smell it, feel its warmth. Mrs. Asrani steps away without pushing the cup closer because now she doesn't have the scrap of paper for protection.

What we do as a ritual or duty can have many motives. I have done many things out of duty with a grumble under my breath. Because a duty is carried out daily, even for eleven years, does not make the person good doing the deed.

Not to be too hard on Mrs. Asrani most people have a fear of disease especially when bodily fluids are involved.

I don't understand Hinduism and other Eastern religions either. It is interesting learning and hearing about it all in Manil Suri's book. In the interview he mention writing Fiction in relationship with his work as a Professor of Mathematics. That really threw me for a loop. I hope Kleo and others who understand Mathematics will explain this interesting concept.

One of the "Talking Points" is "The calculus of a soul's progress in the realms of Karma." I surely would like to hear about this point, not that I will understand it. I can try.

Even though Mrs. Asrani's motives are not very good, she is still on a step that will lead upward in Hinduism. We can't cross her out and say she is lost to salvation in the way that some Western religions might put it.

The calculus of a soul's progress in the realms of Karma.

In English. One accrues good and bad, this is your Karma. Karma isn't about great deeds, calculus isn't about huge deeds, it's about finding the sum of the whole by looking at tiny, infinitesimally small bits, and bringing all those bits together to tell you what the whole is.

If you're going to calculate the progress of a human soul in the realm of Karma, don't start with the greatness of the deed a man or woman has done, but look at the infinitesimally small deeds the person has done throughout their life, then try to connect them, try to see their progress through the person's life, to find a true measure of his greatness.

The interesting thing is that intuitively one can look at a square, with a side 2" long and say the area is 2 square inches. If one uses calculus to find the area of the same square, breaking it down into tiny tiny bits of area (not really what one actually does in calculating, but that's a different story), then watching as the bits get tinier and tinier until they're almost zero in area, then adding all these infinitesimally small bits together one will get an area of 2 square inches.

But the human soul is not a square with sides of equal length, and all things one must calculate the area of are not so well defined. Calculus is used, in part, to find the area of irregular enclosed areas.

What could be more irregular than the human soul?

Don't look at man's greatest, biggest, most showy deeds to measure the worth of his soul or his Karma. Look at the small things in life that he does, the smallest things, the very very smallest things that are almost nothing, or as close to nothing as possible. This is how you will know the value of your fellow human being.

Kleo

Kleo, thank you. I like this concept of not looking at the most well known, the largest whole first. To begin with the tiny and work up seems like a very hopeful concept. In the West, I think, we look at the fame and fortune first forgetting a person's tiny start in the beginning.

But it's not just the tiny start, it's the tiny things throughout life. Calculus is wonderful, that you can use math that describes ALL of the whole (not just the start) of a life by looking at pieces so tiny they are as close to nothing as possible.

Karma isn't about a tiny start then moving on to great things. Karma is the sum of all the tiny things you do throughout your life. This is what makes you great, and gives you rewards in the next life, not the one great things you do, not what makes you a hero to other human beings, but all the little things you do throughout your life.

It's important to understand that ultimately calculus will give the value of the WHOLE through the sum of the infinitesimal bits, not the sum of the beginning.

Kleo

Kleo--So if a child opens a door for an older person, that would count? Also if I open a door for an older person. Or say "excuse me" if I bump someone? Or offer someone a tissue? Little acts. That ant I didn't step on going into the Y today?

Maryal, that's what I was trying to say. I didn't explain myself well. Kleo, is putting it very clearly.

"ALL of the whole (not just the start) of a life by looking at pieces so tiny they are as close to nothing as possible."Kleo

Doesn't this give our WHOLE life purpose?

Deems, yes. Especially the ant. Because can't you just see how close to nothing that is, but how such a little consideration by 6 billion people would add up to a much better world? Or lots more ants....

Hats, yes.

This is just my interpretation of Karma, made clear by this beautiful and simple quote from the book. Math describes the universe, not just the physical, but the universe of the soul, if one cares to apply it.

Kleo

So, what has Vishnu done with his time on earth? Perhaps we shall find out, if and as his memories keep coming back to him. He doesn't seem to be held in the highest esteem by the people whom he has been serving.

Has the author predisposed the reader in favor of Vishnu by giving him the name of one of the Hindi gods? Why would a mother give her child the name of a god? To make his life easier? To find favor herself with the god Vishnu? And what about the Gangas, both Tall and Short? Both named after the goddess Ganga, related to the Ganges, one presumes.

Hats, the suggested talking point about the calculus of a soul's progress was intended to get Kleo into the discussion. I'll be honest about it. And did she ever come through!!!

Thanks, Kleo. I'm even more certain now that there is a big picture here somewhere, that we should keep in mind. To keep us from getting lost in, or being overwhelmed by the endless details of these lives aroung Vishnu, as interesting as it all is.

But you others are all aware of it too, judging by your posts. I hope the author doesn't let us down. It seems to me that he may only be scripting a movie. It's all so easy to visualize.

I've just checked. It's hotter here in Toronto than it is in Mumbai. 102, compared to about 90. What's it like in the Poconos, Mal?

85 degrees Fahrenheit, JONATHAN. 90 earlier. That's hot for on top of this little mountain.

Mal

While Vishnu is on the staircase we learn about his past life. At an early age he had his first taste or big swallow of bhang. This is an Indian drink which causes intoxication. His father and the other men poured the drink down Vishnu's throat.

Then, Vishnu remembers being with Padmini, a prostitute, who forced him to have an intimate, sexual relationship. Both memories are in red. Why?

I get the impression from an early age Vishnu was steered to a life of doing whatever gives pleasure, no matter the consequences to others or himself.

Now he is an alcoholic, a man unable to handle a small job well. He doesn't deliver the milk on time. When he finally delivers it, the milk is curdled. He is also a con artist. Each family gives Vishnu money to go to his brother's for care. Vishnu takes the money and never goes. In the United States, we would call Vishnu a bum.

Vishnu has led a hard life. It seems his death is going to be difficult too. Strange, something keeps him holding on to the last.

At first I didn't like the Asranis or the Pathaks. After rethinking, I find their patience amazing. Mrs. Asrani continues to bring the tea even though blood, from TB, smears her sari. Each family argues about who will pay for the ambulance. Still, I bet they will get an ambulance for Vishnu. Each family gave money to Vishnu to visit his brother. There is some good character traits in these two families. The Pathaks and Asranis aren't all bad.

Mrs. Asrani shows some sympathy for Vishnu. She says, "the poor bechara." Bechara means poor fellow. She feels sorry for Vishnu. Mrs. Asrani still sees Vishnu as a person with worth.

I had to look at the glossary in the back of the book to find the meaning of "bechara."

Kleo, thank you for explaining that very hard mathematical concept.

Thank you, Kleo, for tying math/calculus and karma together. I never would have made the connection!

I liked the Asranis and the Pathnaks from the beginning of the book. Their actions and interactions are hilarious, in my opinion. I found myself chuckling, even when I felt like maybe I shouldn’t be. Here is a man dying on the steps and I am amused by the actions and inactions of his neighbors. Upon further reading and reflection, I concluded that the author is using humor to make reading about a very serious situation more enjoyable. Also, while laughing at the Asranis and the Pathnaks, I thought of people I knew who were like them, and, yes, even thought of ways my family and I are like them.

Several weeks ago, in relation to the Time article, I mentioned India as a country of contrasts. I think this book is a book of contrasts too. Maybe it could be called dark humor; the very serious death of a person taking place among the comically funny lives of the building dwellers. The contrasts between humor and seriousness, life and death, well off and poor (the whole caste system), action and inaction, etc.

Laura D, that helps. I didn't know what to call the type of literature where humor and tragedy are mixed together. "Dark humor" fits for me.

The Death of Vishnu has been said to fall in the category of "Magical Realism" (Click here to read an article) Like writing by Gabriel Garcia Marquez.Isabel Allende and some works like The Magus by John Fowles.

Mal

Mal, thank you. Good article. The first sentence makes me want to read on. This comedy and death does seem to fit Magical Realism.

"A literary mode rather than a distinguishable genre, magical realism aims to seize the paradox of the union of opposites."(Mal's link)

HATS, for some reason this book makes me think of Waiting for Godot by Samuel Beckett. To me there's a touch of the Theater of the Absurd in it, as life can be absurd. Obviously, I am not a Hindu. ; )

Mal

Mal, "absurd" is another good term for this book. It is so different from any book I have read lately. This difference, this uniqueness in the story is making me enjoy it. It is, to me, a story about human nature. Human nature is never pinned down like a butterfly. In the same way it is difficult for me to pin down the people who live in the building.

I think the story is a masterpiece.

Jonathan, why is Vishnu given the name of a God?

I can see that in the act of Mrs. Asrani giving tea to Vishnu it could be construed as a "tiny" piece of her whole being. Now based on that theory what would you say about Vishnu. What is his "tiny" piece of the whole? When we first see him on the staircase he is portrayed as an imperished alcoholic. But is this all we can say about the man?

Just as there are two sides to a coin so there are two sides to a deed - the giver and the taker. Mrs. Asrani gives tea to Vishnu so she would be considered the giver. And Vishnu receives the tea and so he may be considered the taker. But what does Mrs. Asrani get from Vishnu? What "tiny" piece of his whole is shown to the world?

"The cup lay steaming where she had it - but now Vishnu looked like he was stretching out across the landing to try and reach it, like a man dead in the desert, grasping for the drink that could have saved him."

Is the cup of tea symbolic of something more or is it what it is just a cup of tea?

Was it enough that Mrs. Asrani thought she did her duty? Would her deed have been greater had she moved the cup closer or had checked to see if Vishnu were alive or dead?

I suppose Indian mothers name their sons after gods in the same way that Catholic mothers will name their sons Jesus or Christopher.

Scrawler, about the name, I agree. From Vishnu's memories his mother had high hopes for him. That's why she named him Vishnu.

I do think Mrs. Asrani's deed would have been greater if she pushed the tea closer. The way I look at it there is no judgement on Mrs. Asrani. This is as far as she was able to go in her steps upward or forward in the stages of Hinduism at this time.

I don't know about the tea being symbolic. I think Vishnu's stretching forward is symbolic, again, of the steps or stages in Hinduism.

"One of the most fascinating things about the book to me is the use of the apartment as a sort of metaphor and as the dying Vishnu crawls from floor to floor his journey resembles the stations of the Hindu ascension"(From Michael Cunningham's interview with Manil Suri).

Thank you, Mal, for the link on magical realism. That definition seems to apply to The Death of Vishnu.

I would like to provide another dimension to the label of magical realism, one from an Indian author.

On a web site called The Bookcast, a site which offers daily audio interviews with authors, and which I discovered by listening to an interview of Matthew Pearl in preparation for The Poe Shadow next month, I listened to the interview of Siddharth Dhanvant Shanghvi, author of The Last Song of Dusk. He said the following (paraphrasing to the best of my ability):

One of the categories I get put into, particularly in the West, which I find quite politely dismissive, is when they call it [his book] magical realism. I am a little suspect of this category…It is a bit wide to dismiss realism of a certain country or a certain culture because you have that label for writers out of South America or India, but The Lovely Bones would not be given that label. So there is a certain amount of dismissiveness that this category or phrase has.

This is thought provoking to me because even though I am attempting to understand more about India and its culture by reading books on India, I realize that I will probably never be able to fully understand what is presented in the books. I have not lived in India and do not begin to understand the connection between real life and spiritual life that the Indian people have. It is trying to understand that connection that I find most challenging about this book.

He asked me to sit in for him. He seemed badly shaken by a disturbing email he received this morning, and said he needed to get out of town for a few days. I'm happy to do that for him, using the few notes to himself in his working folder. Such as, 'day 2 - end chap 1'.

I've read that far, and I must say it's all very entertaining. But it's hard to see where the author is going with all the petty details of these inconsequential lives. The dying man is the most amusing of them all, with his lusty, passionate dreams. For a homeless person Vishnu has done very well for himself. And now he dreams of going out with the gods!

I've been perusing the posts during the day. 'A little masterpiece.' Those were Jonathan's very words as he threw his toothbrush and a few things into his bag. One page of VISHNU is worth fifty pages of that other book, he kept muttering to himself. Let them splash about, he said to me, adding that the book could be compared to a swimming pool, with the early chapters being the shallow end.

A second note is the short, cryptic sentence: 'Death is an experience that can be shaped by the living.' Attributed to one Quentin Hobson Clark, whoever that is. And then the following, compare Suri's Vishnu, the Hindu dying in Bombay, to Philip Roth's Everyman, the Jew dying in New Jersey, and to Tolstoy's Ivan Ilych, the Christian dying, somewhere in Russia. Now that's piling a lot onto one's plate.

Dying as Vishnu, the 'keeper of the universe, keeper of the sun', seems to promise something very special, with the consort Lakshmi and the holy city Vaikuntha waiting for him. And the eagle Garuda to take them there! Onward and upward. I doubt if Vishnu understands, Laura.

Well, that does it. I was only going to discuss the math, but now that Jonathan has wrongfully had his feelings hurt, I'll be reading and discussing. It will take me a few days to catch up. I expect Jonathan back by then!

Laura, how nice of you to drop by.

Jonathan sees the beauty of the East, what makes him such a great discussion leader for these type of discussions. Life in the East is not the throw in the gauntlet, all the words of one person, type of life like in the West at times (you're all thinking, Kleo is saying that, sputter, sputter). It takes someone who can make a collage of the contributions of many to see the beauty in the East. Jonathan can do this, be a discussion leader who more facilitates every one else leading the same journey all at once. And, the difficult thing for some to understand, is that you don't all always wind up in the same place in spite of taking the journey together, but you're never alone, even when you arrive at your own unique space.

Very unique, Jonathan is, to be able to lead this journey we're all leading.

Kleo

"We learn from everything we do. All creatures can be our teachers. We also learn from everything that happens, good and bad. In fact sometimes our adversaries provide us with our most precious teachings.

Confucius once said, "If you meet a noble man, try to equal him. When you see an evil one, examine yourself thoroughly." ~ "Awakening to the Sacred" ~ Lama Surya Das

I can see the characters in "The Death of Vishnu" learning from everything they do. Mrs. Asarni by doing her duty has learned to care for another person other than herself whether she realizes it or not. As we continue to read I'm sure other characters will reveal themselves as learning from others as well.

I just hope JONATHAN is out climbing a mountain somewhere and stopping at the landings he knows so well.

Mal

Welcome emlyn It is so nice of you to help Johnathon and us out, Thanks, being as special as he is I knew he has very special friends. Thanks again.

Ginger

If I know Jonathan, he's probably somewhere enjoying himself, perhaps even laughing up his sleeve, like the author himself parading his characters on and off the stage for us. Jonathan's feelings for himself are usually minimal. It's the book that matters. His empathy for others runs deep, be they on the street or between the covers of a book. But his sense of humor can sometimes be perverse.

Doing the circuit here in books, I have become aware of the circumstances which may have led to Jonathan's hasty departure. There is no doubt in my mind that he wanted Cathie in the discussion, well aware that she finds herself in a very stressful situation. And now, after reading parts of chapter 2, I can see for myself that Cathie, along with everyone else, could have really worthwhile comments to make about the exquisitely drawn matrimonial relationships in the book. I don't doubt that Jonathan will be back with his take on life and death in Bombay.

'Are you listening?' Mrs Pathak has to ask her harried husband before she communicates her feelings to him. We may be in India, but it feels so close to home.

Hi, Folks.

Thank you, Emlyn, for your willingness to help out Jonathan for a day or two, we appreciate that, very much; however, our Books & Literature discussions are not led by friends nor participants, tho we appreciate the well meaning help, but by our own SeniorNet Books Discussion Leaders.

Since you say Jonathan is going to be unavoidably detained for a day or so, thank you so much for letting us know, I will take the discussion until he returns. I hope YOU will pull up a chair and join us, also!

It will take me a couple of hours to catch up to Chapter 4, but I am enjoying the informational posts up until now and as some of you know, I do have a life long love of India. I have taken one course at Oxford University on the Rise and Fall of the British Empire in India, taught by an Indian professor) and two courses taught by two consortiums of Indian professors in Indian history and culture at another university in the last two years, so, although I realize that I am NOT a suitable Avatar for Jonathan, amd even the short points to ponder in the heading are certainly way above my head, and I certainly cannot match the knowledge in this room, I will do my best until his return. With your help.

I can already see I am in trouble: The calculus of a soul's progress in the realms of Karma.

Wow. WOW, I don't even know what Karma is.

For myself I wonder what it says when a man lies dying on the steps and everybody else walks around him. Let me catch up to you and I’ll be right back.

I remind participants that “ad hominem” remarks are not permitted by SeniorNet’s Policies, but opinions about a BOOK are, so let’s hear your thoughts as Vishnu (what an odd name for a man, Vishnu is a God, with many Avatars including Buddha and Krishna. Do you think there is some symbolism here?)

The publisher Harper Collins, as noted in the heading, has published a Reader's Guide for this book.

It's excellent and contains the information that the author has a website, again in the heading, perhaps we could engage him in conversation, sometime, if you have any questions.

Meanwhile here are two more, are they covered in the first Four Chapters?

Discussion Questions

1. What was actually happening during Vishnu's out-of-body experience in the stairwell? Was this the dream of a dying man, informed by his experiences in life, or was it an authentic transition away from his body, in line with the Hindu concept of death? What evidence is there of either position?

2. As the only Muslim residents, the Jalal's are outsiders in the building, and are occasionally referred to with suspicion by the rest of the building and the neighborhood. They are also the most religiously fervent-demonstrated in Mrs. Jalal's piety and wish for her family to join her in religious observance, and in Mr. Jalal's enthusiastic conversion to a spiritual life. Is there a relationship between isolation and spirituality being drawn?

If those are not covered in the first four chapters, and the exciting calculus question is more to your liking, please address it, OR pose your own, did you not have any questions as you read this strange book? When is the last time YOU walked around a man dying on a staircase?

Be right back…..

Ginny, we have been discussing the calculus quote in depth and got a pretty good handle on it and its relation to Karma and life and the human soul--I think you'll enjoy looking at some of the past quotes, a real collage of input. Jonathan asked me to comment on the math allusions in the book, and I'm having a blast at it, as the author works in one of my favorite areas of math.

There was a recent incident in which a man was dying on Mount Everest and various climbing groups chose to summit instead of rendering him aid, including a man who is a double amputee (both lower legs), who said that his group was less capable of doing anything so they didn't bother. After this a man was reported to have died on Everest, yet it turns out he was aided by a group that was passing and was alive. The group who saved his life was led by a professional mountaineer (as claimed the other groups who left a man to die, but I beg to differ with their claiming themselves to be professionals) who said, when asked how his clients took it when they discussed stopping the expedition to save the man's life, there was nothing to discuss, we saw a man in need and we stopped and rendered aid. That's a professional. And a decent human being.

It's an interesting premise in a piece of fiction. It's rather hard to take, in my opinion, in real life.

Kleo

In the household of the Jalal's, I think there is a real relationship between isolation and spirituality. Mr. Jalal is not as secure in his Muslim worship as his wife, Mrs. Jalal. She finds herself doing so many of the spiritual disciplines alone or with her son.

Mr. Jalal seems to have a definite desire to be spiritual. The question is what way should he choose? He is afraid of missing the mark. This makes him go to the Hindu Temple, the Mosque and even the Catholic church. He studies the Koran. He also studies Chinese writings. His search for perfect spirituality excludes his wife, Mrs. Jalal. She feels alone, apart from him, not really knowing him anymore. It is odd to me that the words, spirituality and isolation, can fit together so closely.

Then, I know people like this very family. One spouse is very religious and the other is not. It leaves one part of the family on one side of a river and another part of the family on the other side, again, isolation and spirituality.

Scrawler, I love the quotes you posted earlier.

Thank you Kleo, I have now read the first four chapters and every post in this discussion and fine posts and points they are, too.

I am struck by several things in these first four chapters, and each of you actually is alluding to them in different ways.

I am interested in the question of spirituality, which Hats has addressed so splendidly. You have to ask who, in our own Western vision of spirituality, has treated Vishnu with compassion?

I think Jonathan mentioned how they all revolve around Vishnu, (isn't there a WHEEL in Indian religion?) and it’s interesting to me how each one of them seems to demonstrate a different type of charity.

But who of all of these people who come in contact with him, shows him the most true charity?? Is there a different concept of Charity in India (it's mentioned in chapter 4) than in Western societies?

Kleo in this calculus of Karma, does it not make any difference WHY a person does the small act?

The WHY here is quite striking.

If we made a list of WHY each character responds to Vishnu, what would be on it?

Mrs. Asrani does what she does grudgingly, in order to win her place in…what? “She had done her duty, in any case,” whether or not he was dead, whether or not he could reach the cup. (page 14).

That’s some compassion there, some duty.

How about Mr. Asrani and Mr. Pathak at the Irani Café, when they decide to split the ambulsnce price between them. What is their motivation?

What is Mrs. Pathak’s reaction to Vishnu’s dying on the steps?

I am only seeing in this fairly large group of people, two people who show compassion to the l dying man and one after his death (or IS he dead?)

Here are the questions which keep stopping me which I would like to know about, I'll add them to the heading also just in case somebody would like to try one, would love to hear what you are thinking on these:

The book opens with a startling scene, plunging the reader immediately into the middle of things (in medias res) with a dying man on the stairs and the reactions of each person TO him. Which of the people who come in contact to him care about him? Which one shows the most compassion?

The book’s narrators change constantly, leaping between those who view Vishnu on the steps, the Tall and Short Gangas, the Pathak’s, the Asrani’s, and in chapter 4, the Jalal’s, a Romeo and Juliet type of relationship between two of the children, Kavita and Salil, and Vishnu’s own thoughts.

How effective is this technique in bringing the reader into the action of the book?

Which character, in your opinion, is presented most favorably? Which character seems the most likeable? Why?

The question of Spirituality is taken up very subtly in the different couples revealed here, from the lonely and isolated Mrs. Jalal, who is “tired, so tired of being the one,” (page 69) and yet whose husband appears to have gone off the deep end spiritually, or would you agree. How would you compare the spirituality of all of the characters listed here? Does any character show true spirituality? What IS spirituality??

What is meant by the “out of body” experience that Vishnu seems to be undergoing? Do you believe the stories told of those who have had near death experiences? Have you read of any which include extreme sensitivity to sound? What is meant by hearing the ants screaming at the end of Chapter 4?

What is the meaning of this sentence and what does it reveal about the characters in the book? Who says it? “As if we can’t take care of our own.” (page 81).

What is:

bechara (27)
Holi (19)
The Hajrat Society (78)
the significance of bananas (70)
a “Ganga”
the meaning of the suffix “walla” on the end of words?
The significance of the color red
An Air India clock
the card game you think they are playing at the “kitty party?”
amavas (36)

I will say this, reading this, and seeing all the precautions taken to the point of leaving a cup of tea out of the reach of a dying man because the piece of paper has fallen by that you’d need to protect yourself (shades of Monk, is the author here pointing the finger at US? Let’s discuss what we would do in this circumstance? Honestly?) And people with handkerchiefs over their mouths, you have to pause and remark on Mother Teresa in the same city and how she fearlessly nursed the worst of the poor on the streets.

Have you noticed how many mothers in this story have high hopes/ names/ destinies in mind for their children? The book seems to be a series of constant contrasts in reality, or does every person make their own reality? What is the author saying here with this tale?

In what way is each character isolated from the others? What seems to have caused this?

I think I agree with LauraD (that’s a poem) (Welcome, welcome, Laura D)

that it’s going to be hard for a lot of us in the West to understand India here as portrayed, so many little things, even: most of us have never seen an Air India clock and Malryn has asked early what a “Landing” is in this story. It would appear that two other people have been eying it for themselves, and they actually live here and perform small services. Did it say that he had to PAY for this privilege?

The words “Air India Clock” and “Landing” doubtless mean something to somebody who has lived in Bombay while to us they are curiosities, we can try to imagine but we don’t have that electric jolt of recognition, either.

Yet the author is determined to immerse us in this story. There is no glossary in the back, no explanations (at least not in my book). Strange things are happening. The voices, the Point of View of the story keep shifting. The time keeps shifting, from the present to the past.

It seems to have taken him 51 pages to tell us it’s in Bombay, can any of you find a reference to the city before that? He’s thrown us right in here and we can sink or swim, I kind of like that.

It took me half a chapter to figure out what a kitty party is.

But he’s making some universal points, I think? Do you?

Can you isolate any universal concept which these characters have revealed so far in these four short chapters? Isolation, Hats said, loneliness, but Vishnu himself IS the most lonely? Isn’t he?

This is quite a lot to pack in such a whirling amorphous package in 4 chapters, isn’t it? Sort of delicious. I do think the author is making a point. I don’t know what it IS, tho? What do you think, so far?? There’s a LOT here, I think?

"Kleo in this calculus of Karma, does it not make any difference WHY a person does the small act?"

This strikes me as a stunningly obvious question, one that might have been cleared from the get-go, to allow people to see the contrast between the two worlds, Ginny. I have not read all of the other posts yet, and will still go back to them, also.

First of all, my only experience with Karma, as with Afghans and Indians, is from growing up and being around these cultures in America. Afghans are more like Indians than they are like Middle Easterners, except for religion. Easterners that I know (and let's just assume that I know very few of the billions available) don't measure the purity of motivation behind the act to rate its charitable quotient, with the exception that one should not be motivated by potential fame and reward in the present world. It seems to me to be a very Western concept that one must have pure motives and no hope for gain when doing an act of charity for it to be worthwhile. I have never studied, from a sociological point of view, any South Asian cultures. (I wonder why? I studied anthropology for years, Mayan, New Guinea, Southeast Asia.)

I don't think that doing an act purely for its karmatic value negates the karma accrued to the individual for doing the act. The purity of intentions is strictly Western, as far as I know.

Kleo

I'm sorry if the question seems stunningly obvious to you, Kleo, I did not see it discussed in the posts, but I could have missed something. I even did a search for karma in this discussion but can't seem to find that particular issue: that is why I asked.

Thank you for your input. I've got a new book on India, I think it takes it up, I'll look at it, also, and report back here. I do think it's an important point.

It's OK in our book discussions to ask any sort of question one likes: whether stunningly obvious or erudite, all questions are welcome here.

"Death, like life, is a process. It can even be said that we are all born dying. That we will die eventually is a certitude. When we deny the fact or keep it hidden in a dark, never-to-be-examined recess of our mind, we avoid thinking about life as much as death."~ "Awakening to the Sacred" ~ Lama Surya Das.

I like what the Lama Surya Das says about the fact that "we are all born dying." Perhaps this is why the author portrayed Vishnu dying on the staircase. Vishnu by dying is really being born again.

I believe in the West for the most part we are taught to deny the fact that death is really a part of life and I agree with the above statement that by keeping this hidden that we not only avoid thinking about death but also stop thinking about life.

In a sense all these characters by avoiding the dying Vishnu on the stairs are in reality avoiding thinking of death and in are also not thinking about how to life to the fullest.

Ginny, you are dazzling in your rescue mission. Stepping into the breech like this. Jonathan no doubt will express his gratituce when he returns.

Dazzling too, to wonder what it would be like to die at the top of the highest mountain in the world. What thoughts would come to the dying man up there? Would it be half as exciting as the display that Vishnu makes of dying, on his humble bed?

I'm hooked. What a fine easy summer read. What a readable book. What would have made Mrs Pathak's samosas come apart like that in the sizzling ghee in her kadai? Was it the mayonnaise? Thank heaven for the glossary of strange terms at the back of the book. Melas and moolis. Shrimatis and phuljadis. Can mantras and yantras be far behind?

Aren't they a pair? Mr. Pathak and Mr. Asrani. It doesn't seem likely that either one will turn out to be the hero of the book. Aren't they both the epitome of the domesticated husband? Both get their marching orders from their wives. First in the kitchen wars, and now in the difficult business of what to do about that sick man on the landing.

Both have made a break for a little freedom, to indulge themselves with a bit of self-expression. The one in the tearoom, and the other in the temple. The one scheming revenge on his tyrannizing wife, the other seeking to assuage the guilt that comes with superstition and married life. Mr Asrani's search for relief from sin takes him first to a Hindu temple, then to a Muslim mosque, and finally to a Christian church. That needn't seem strange at all, given the vast Hindu hierarchy of divinities. We get a small picturesque idea of that at the end of chapter one. I find it very attractive. This comprehensiveness. This accomadation to human diversity. That the object of worship can be tailored to suit the individual's needs. And having found the faith to believe in one God, why not believe in two, or three, a hundred, millions. To gratify ones religious needs. At no extra cost, but an infinite number of additional blessings. Perhaps Mr Asrani will lead the reader to spiritual realms unguessed at by the Western religious neophyte.

That dead man on Everest should be so lucky in finding an author such as is telling Vishnu's story.

I think we are predominantly seeing Vishnu's point of view. A servant knows about everything going on in a house: the arguments, love affairs, visitors, parties, etc. While living and bringing the milk Vishnu had a chance to know each family well. Vishnu does not remind me of an introvert. So, he would have gladly held a coversation with the husbands, wives, daughters and sons, anybody willing to talk. Vishnu would have known the strengths and weaknesses of each person in that building. He, in his strong days, was the sustainer of the building. "I stand sustaining the entire world."

His mother leaves him a legacy. "What would be the world without you?" Then, Vishnu paraphrases his mother's words. "There is only darkness without me."

I also think Vishnu's point of view is predominant because it is a way for the author to remember the "real" Vishnu he met while a child.

HiEmlyn, I am proud to meet Jonathan's friend. Thank you for being here.

HiGinny, I am glad you are here. You are quick on the response too, like a firelady ready to grab firehat, hose and boots. Thank you.

Then, while ill, while drawing his last breath, Vishnu still owns power with a "fragment" of himself. "I stand sustaing the entire world
with a fragment of my being."

So, Vishnu symbolizes the god, Vishnu. This is the part of the quote taken from The Bhagavad-Gita written in the front of the book.

Scrawler, your post is really great, I think.

I am reading the Perennial paperback version of the book, which does indeed have a glossary in the back, thank goodness! I will provide definitions for the terms Ginny listed if many people are without a glossary. Let me know.

emlyn -- I would like to send you an invitation to subscribe to SeniorNet Book Bytes, but Altavista.com says there is no such account.

Laura!! That would be wonderful, will you please put those definitions here? I don't know what I'm reading or talking about, thank you so much! Those Perennial Editions are so fine, aren't they?

Mine is the Harper Collins, also Perennial, but lacking the necessary glossary.

I was just thinking how effective the author's technique is here. He's thrown us into it full tilt, we become as children, trying to decipher the world we're in, we don't know what half the words mean or what's going on, so we have to use our imaginations and extraordinary senses, just like a child does. I sometimes wonder if a child's brain grows that much more than an adult's or if it's the sensory overload. At any rate, I really would like to know what some of those terms mean, thank you!

Thank you Emlyn, I was not surprised at the samosas coming apart, everything I cook comes apart. I was surprised that two woman share the same kitchen, that is always cause for War and that Mrs. Jalal does not seem to?

I don't have a Glossary, so I don't know actually other than reading what's put here what a samosa is, really. Sounds exotic but it IS hard to keep anything together in a frying pan. I was surprised she was clever enough to make it into something else, actually.

Interesting point you make on the "break for freedom" and on who will emerge as the hero of the book! Break for freedom, that's a concept I'd like to follow up with as I read it personally. Looks to me like (so far, anyway) the only person actually achieveing the Freedom is Vishnu.

Everest is a good comparison that Kleo made. Having read the Krakauer as she has and several others including the Boukreev, we find a strange attitude toward death on Everest, and we may be seeing one here, too. It was thought in the Western Misunderstanding of India until quite recently that should an Indian fall into the Ganges and be killed or swept away it was not remarked on, that people turned their heads away, due to their strange religious belielfs, etc. That is found not to be true, (how could it have been) and maybe this book will raise Western sensibilities, too. Maybe not. I would say, but won't, is our technologically assisted death in the West better?

I would say that, but won't. Touchy subject, death, yet the life of this book revolves around it.

I'm glad to see you here with us, Emlyn, please have your email corrected; this is a SeniorNet rule for continuing to post: a correct email address. I am expecting Jonathan back on Monday to take over the discussion as we in the Classics Project on SeniorNet are in the process of planning 14 very involved discussions which will begin September 1 and run the entire year, with many collaborators in the Latin and Greek classes and we only have three weeks left, and my candle is flickering out. I am enjoying the book, however, and will continiue to read it and chirp along, it may not be erudite, but it will be my own thoughts.

What interesting points, Hats!! I am thnking that we may be seeing them all through his eyes, too. Is he an introvert, an extrovert, how are we seeing HIM? What an excellent, excellent point! The Point of View of this is amazing and for some reason, difficult for me to pin down.

"I stand sustaining the entire world."

Yes, he does seem to be actually doing that, they all are revolving around him like a wheel, let me FIND that book on India, there IS a wheel where the outside dances around the inside. I think that's what's happening here, too.

We are looking at these other figures in the 3rd person, the narrator, would we say, is the Omniscient Third Person, he knows what's in their heads and why they do what they do, but nobody is referred to as "I" are they?

I have not read the Bhagavad-Gita nor the Mahabharata in years, and have forgotten what they teach nor do I remember what the Vedas teach, but I KNOW it's complicated. 3 million gods! I have GOT to find that book!

Two EXCLLENT points, Scrawler:

I like what the Lama Surya Das says about the fact that "we are all born dying." Perhaps this is why the author portrayed Vishnu dying on the staircase. Vishnu by dying is really being born again.

In a sense all these characters by avoiding the dying Vishnu on the stairs are in reality avoiding thinking of death and in are also not thinking about how to life to the fullest.

In your first quote, when you think about it, the reactions to Vishnu's dying by the various participants are pretty trivial by comparison, aren't they? Almost exaggerated in their pettiness. Hard to imagine somebody that lacking in compassion, but the Short Ganga has it? (SHORT sorry hahaah) of doing something her own self?

Easy to tell others what to do, huh? I am off to find the wheel, the karma and who it does and doea not pertain to, (I seem to remember in reading two of Gandhi's books that both he and Buddha spent an awful lot of time trying to control the mind before the physical actions of piety), but I need to find out.

And I'm not sure why a Muslim character is introduced here in the way it has been. It's a brave new world for us. Who is the speaker in this question in the heading? I could not figure it out. If the author is doing what I think he is, he's VERY clever here, here's the question, I guess they need numbering:

What is the meaning of this sentence and what does it reveal about the characters in the book? Who says it? “As if we can’t take care of our own.” (page 81).

Lemme find that wheel and that BOOK!

I live in a small apartment house. It's a place where practically everyone knows everyone else and everybody knows everybody's business. Or they think they do as they assemble a life and a background from the few facts they know and crumbs that are dropped. The Vishnu's Landing apartment house reminds me of this. The kitchen feud betwen Mrs. Pathak and Mrs. Asrani is like the laundry room feud here between Agmes amd Beverly. There are 3 washers and 2 dryers. One of the dryers is hotter and more efficient than the other, which you have to pay twice to get anything dry. If Beverly stands in front of the efficient one and folds her clothes, delaying Agnes who has removed her laundry from the washer, Agnes is fit to be tied. I met her in the lobby one time and didn't recognize her; her fury and need for revenge were so great.

I had the same experience with Chinese egg rolls that Mrs. Pathak had with her samosas. I figured that when I folded them I didn't glue them together well, so all the filling escaped. Is this a symbol of the dwelling place we're reading about or India or something? My brain is struggling with fatigue after a big day at the Pain Menagerie yesterday for a painful shoulder bursa cortisone shot -- and, ouch, do they hurt -- and a two hour wait for the rickety Shared Ride bus that always shakes me up, plus taking my life in my hands to cross busy Highway 611 after I left the bank where the driver kindly dropped me off, and traffic didn't stop for me and the wheelchair this time, I am less than a shade of what I was at 8:30 yesterday morning when I went out to get on a bus for an 11:30 appointment in the nearby next town.

Spirituality. I have trouble with this because in my long life I had known so few people who are truly spiritual. I know people who seem to have religion pumped into their veins by their hearts. They parrot off the tenets of their faith so faciley that they have to be spiritual, don't they? Not always.

I don't see a real, honest-to-goodness spiritual person in this book. Are Mr. Jalal's methods the way to spirituality? I don't think so. The more I read about his self-infliction of pain, the less spiritual and nuttier he seems. (To me.) And, no, I don't think Vishnu is spiritual, either.

The widower in the top apartment has to be the loneliest one there. Where can you go when you reach the top? Down? Who wants to do that? Does he represent Brahma?

I feel certain that the place to reach answers to some of the questions inspired by this book is the Bhagavad Gita.

As far as I know, "the Wheel of Life" (samsara) occurs in both Hinduism and Buddhism.

I posted a link awhile back about the color RED in India. I'll see if I can find it and post it again.

I see I have forgotten to mention that Ralph Waldo Emerson, Henry David Thoreau and other Transcendentalists admired and studied Hinduism. You'll find references to it in their writings.

Mal

Malryn, excellent points on the parallels in the feud between Beverly and Agnes and that of our principals here, one struggle over washing machines and dryers (and really nothing else makes me more angry either than a shared laundry, you really have to watch your step in them) and the other a shared kitchen in the book.

Loved this, too on the samosas falling apart: Is this a symbol of the dwelling place we're reading about or India or something?

Things fall apart, huh? I wonder if it IS! We've got everybody revolving around Vishnu at the moment on the landing, we've got a wheel in a wheel as Ezekiel saw, in that Vishnu himself does flashbacks to his own life, and we've got things being thrown off the revolving wheel into shatters. I like that! We can see what we think it might involve, or symbolize, certainly the "kitty party" fell apart.

I still can't figure out what card game they are playing but I don't know the card games of India. I doubt sincerely it's poker?

OOO love your second post, on spirituality, (do you think Vishnu is spritual?) and I'll add these to the heading, hold on:

The widower in the top apartment has to be the loneliest one there. Where can you go when you reach the top? Down? Who wants to do that? Does he represent Brahma?

Oh boy!

As far as I know, "the Wheel of Life" (samsara) occurs in both Hinduism and Buddhism.

SAMSARA? SAMOSA? wow, wow. Allusion?

wow?

Good news! There is a glossary on the author’s web page. Just use the link above and then click glossary. Most of the terms on your list are there, Ginny.

The only thing I could find on the Hajrat Society is that it is a group for social justice and empowerment. It may also go by The Hajrat Mohini Charitable Society or The Hazrat Mohini Charitable Society. It seems to be a governmental organization.

Someone provided a link earlier in the pre-discussion about the significance of the color red.

As for the Air India clock, Air India is an airline and I assumed that the clock was a promotional item given to people or purchased for a low price. It would hang on the wall and have the Air India logo on it.

I read a lot of books that are written from multiple points of view and/or with multiple narrators. I love them. They are sometimes a bit more difficult to follow, but I feel like I am getting a multidimensional view of the people, places, and events presented in the novel.

Thus far in the book, I cannot say whose point of view we are seeing predominantly. I am concentrating on the reliability of the different narrators/voices at this point. I am very biased in my opinion right now --- I find Vishnu to be the least reliable, mainly because I cannot determine if these episodes are solely his memories, or if they are illusions, or, mostly likely, if they are memories mixed with or embellished with illusions. Again, I feel at a disadvantage not knowing about the Indian spirituality.

I agree with Mal that “the place to reach answers to some of the questions inspired by this book is the Bhagavad Gita.” I know the author provided a link on his web site, in the A Note on Sources. I am going to see what I can determine from these sources.

I've just read an email sent last night, to J's mail drop, but addressed to me, adding insult to injury. This correspondent seems concerned about Jonathan's health, and then goes on to suggest that I might be a reincarnation of my very good friend. That's ridiculous. Things just don't happen that fast, even with the best and latest yoga techniques. It's true, I've known Jonathan for many years. I am sitting at his desk, (I'm digssitting), I am using his well-annotated and heavily marked text of VISHNU, so I can readily make out where his thinking was going on this one, so much so, that it might be thought that my thoughts are his thoughts. Of course I have no presumptuous intention of leading this discussion, but I would like to join in, if I may.

As an example of the marginalia in Jonathan's book are several jottings at the head of scene 2,3, meaning the third episode of Chapter 2. All 86 scenes in the book are thus numbered for easy referencing. There, in his very fine handwriting, are the little notes:

'the dying Vishnu brings everything to life', and

'always a burst of life when Vishnu takes the stage, when the camera is on him'

Now isn't that so true of the second half of Chapter 2. The reader is at once caught up in the excitement of Divali, when Kavita comes along with her sparklers. Then, in a moment, it's off to the mela, the fair, with Padmini, that exquisite creature with her silver-sandaled feet and sequin-studded dress, and her 'red red lipstick', asking for some candy floss. Off again, to the beach for seagulls and crabs! Vishnu can't possibly be dying. Not with all that pent-up energy conjuring up and recreating the past. He has too great a hold on life, to let go, to go anywhere. Renunciating the things of life, that tool of progress on the way to Nirvana is definitely not on Vishnu's mind. On the contrary. Some of those around him are not living at all. Who would have thought?

How very enlivening the book is, how very stimulating, with the scintillating phrases that catch moments of life on the wing, with even the 'shadows dancing everywhere' on the walls of the landing, as Kavita waves her phuljadis about. Aren't these two a pair of movie stars?

How much sweetness and sadness in the words:

'The years pass, and every Divali she graces the landing.'

Be it ever so humble....

Em

Ginny, when I spoke about "isolation" and "loneliness," I meant only the Jalal's. I didn't mean it as a universal standpoint. So, I would like, if possible, for my name to be removed from the header. Thank you.

I also like books written from multiple points of view. Faulkner does this. I suspect it is a lot of work for the author. It does create an entire world with "scintillating phrases that catch moments of life on the wing." Suri's world of scintillating phrases, not Faulkner's.

Ginny, I did not insult stunningly obvious questions in my post at all. Let's just assume something positive is meant, unless it is stated otherwise? I'm delighted by the stunningly obvious that I miss. It is one of my primary reasons for book clubs, to have others question what simply went by me.

Kleo

I assume Laura D is right about the Air India clock. Lots of South Asians have clocks or mirrors with airlines on them. They tend to be large and ornamental with mirrors and frames and gilded bas relief and then "Air India" or "Ariana Airlines" or "PIA" (Pakistan International Airlines) written on them. They're often associated with particular fanciful advertising campaigns. Air India's campaigns have a cartoon man with a mustache, suitably dressed as a Russian (the dolls) or Mexican (sombrero) or American (baseball hat). My cousin has an Ariana Airlines clock in her store, and I've seen them in homes. I will try to take a picture of one to post. I think most of you will get a kick out of them.

Kleo

I found this website helpful in sorting out the Hindu gods mentioned in the book. I cross referenced the glossary with the names listed on this site to determine which ones to study up on. I also liked the general comments on the fundamental beliefs of Hinduism.

Introduction to Hindu Mythology

Thanks Laura for a rather readable site.

Why is there a Muslim family in the apartment building? Well, Muslims are still fairly common post-partition in India with about 140 MILLION Muslims. Mumbai has a large and visible Muslim population, in addition to a smaller, but still large, Catholic population. Pure probabilities? With 5-6 families in an apartment building in Mumbai, it's likely one is Muslim. This doesn't really answer the question only the author can answer--a little variety? Maybe we'll learn more.

Hindu Indians know far more about Islam than Christian Americans know about Judaism, even those Christians who have grown up in areas with large Jewish populations.

Mumbai is a unique city. Their Hindi, as many of you get from watching Bollywood films, is a mishmash of Hindi, Marathi and English. Many Indians from Mumbai speak Urdu, also--I learned this from shopping in Afghan markets where Indians try to find an Afghan to help them who speaks Urdu. Urdu is mentioned in the book. Most Indians I have met from Mumbai are fluent in a number of languages. It sounds like the most amazing of cities. Like Rome and San Francisco and Seattle it is a city built on 7, although 7 islands, not hills. Something I just learned. Not islands today due to a feet of human engineering.

Kleo

I think they are playing teen pathi. It's a bit like poker, with 3 cards. It's a very old card game. You try to get a trio, a straight flush, a straight (beats a flush unlike poker), a flush, a pair or high card. There are some intricate complications, some big differences between it and poker. It is a challenging game. I used to play as a teenager, with Afghan, Iranian and Indian men--only in my family's homes, though. I don't have the competitive lust necessary as an adult.

A kitty party is a women's party. This book seems to imply that card-playing is necessary. This may be the case in India or in Mumbai, but I don't think so. Afghans have kitty parties, but Afghans are not prone to give distinct names to the various and frequent parties they have. I am known to Afghans as more likely to participate in a kitty party than in other types--I enjoy the company of the women and the dancing. The most recent one I went to was early July, ostensibly a birthday party for one young woman, but a kitty party because the hostess is a widow.

No, it seems a kitty party is something more formal in India, not just a group of women partying, but a regularly scheduled group of women partying (implied in the book, also).

Kitty Parties

Sorry if someone already posted this. Also a dictionary of Indian English from www.onelook.com, then a google search, led me to this article.

Kleo

What great thoughts!! Great background links!! I have printed out the Glossary, thank you Laura and Deems, and it prints beautifully to use right along with the text. I have removed your name Hats, sorry to have misunderstood.

Super posts and points, this is wonderful!! I DO want to read that Kitty Party site!!! Thank you Kleo, GREAT stuff here, I want to come back to everybody's points in the morning, but I have found some great stuff, and wanted to come tearing in here before I get knocked off the air by a storm.

I can’t find my newest book on India but I did find Stanley Wolpert’s India which was recommended in the last course I took as the main book to read on India, and what he says is surprising, see if this rings true with what you are finding in the Bhagavad Gita, those of you looking into it.

First off of Karma he says (this is the 1991 edition)

The “Laws” of Karma (Action) and Samsara (Reincarnation) first articulated about 2,500 years ago in Upanishadic dialogues, have remained axiomatic to Indic religiophilosophic thought and are widely accepted by modern Indian intellectuals, as well as most traditional Hindus. The idea of rebirth and redeath seems to have started as a form of extreme punishment for souls, whose deeds were deemed so vile that they could not properly be punished in a single lifetime. Once Samsara was accepted, however, it could obviously also be a reward for those of lowly initial status, who might be returned into higher human, possibly even most exalted Brahman status. The link between Karma and Samsara, once agreed upon, remained self-perpetuating... Every individual deed or action was viewed as a karmic input that would inevitably lead to an output in kind, good deeds ripening as good fruit, evil deeds as evil. The moral arithmetic was impersonal, and atheistic, for no god was required, nor could divinity really help change the balance once a deed had been done…The balance was always writtn in our own hand, sealed with our own lips, each payment falling due in our own blood. As you sow, so shall ye reap, not in high heaven, or dismal hell, but here on earth, next birth around. Impersonally, then, every punishment would suit each "crime," --each action, that is, each deed-- for Karma of every variety, good, bad, and indifferent, soon came to be viewed as undesirable.

Karma, after all, required expiation, which meant rebirth, somehow to be avoided. The goals of Jains and Buddhists and late of Hindus, was much the same Nirvana (or extinction) of being, or “release” (Moksha) from rebirth…

…

Perhaps the ultimate key to Indian tolerance is Karma, for if one truly believes in its ethical imperative, why complain of your own plight or envy another’s?...

….An Untouchable could rise to Brahmanic heights of goodness and glory but only by being a perfect Untouchable first! One must do one’s duty without complaint, without hesitation, or doubt, or grudging, with no silent or vocal contempt. ….

… At about the start of the Christian era, the Bhagavad Gita introduced two new options that have remained the most important techniques used by Hindus for achieving Moksha, in this or some future lifetime. The first of these methods is called Karma Yoga, (Action Discipline) and the second is Bhakti (Devotion).

The Gita is a dialogue, supposed to have taken place on the field of battle just before the armies of warring Aryan cousins launched their bloody eighteen days of mortal conflict, the Mahabharata’s finale. Krishna argues “Yield not to unmanliness. For action is better than inaction…Better one’s own duty , imperfectly performed, Than another’s duty well done.” The key is to act in so disciplined a manner that no Karma adheres to your Soul….”

Now everything can be done without fear of Karmic punishment. The secret is to apply one’s Yoga discipline to action, rather than restraint of action, to disengage one‘s motives while remaining totally engaged in life’s daily routine, to do any and all deeds with the same dispassionate selfless motivation. Kill, if need be, if duty requires it, but do so without hatred, malice or passion, and even a flood of blood will leave no stain on your soul.”

I think you can see how well Wolpert writes, and I am very glad to have found his book today. Some of you might want to look it up and read more of this chapter called Laws of Action and Reincarnation, in the section Religion and Philosophy. I think I’ll start in the beginning of this section and read the whole thing, just wanted to throw this on the fire!!

It’s a VERY complicated subject, apparently. I think I also see what has been bothering me about the characters in this book all along.

More tomorrow, just wanted to throw this down.

What would happen to us if we were to start peeling off the various layers of our persona? If we peeled off the clothing, the facial expressions, the goals, plans, ambitions, the socialized behavior, the roles we play, our feelings will have become frozen in place much like what the dying Vishnu is doing.

In a sense the other characters are peeling off their persona because indirectly they are thinking about him. We have already seen how Mrs. Asrani has felt sorry for Vishnu. Mr. Asrani and Mr. Pathak are also taking a layer off of their persona by agreeing to pay for the ambulance. All the others will adventually come to the same decision.

But what will they find at the end?

Laura D, your answer to the question about point of view gave me a lot to think about. How true. I too am not sure whether Vishnu's memories are true, illusions or what. It's possible that he is not a reliable source for a predominant point of view. Thank you for making me think harder.

Laura, thank you for that information on the The Hajrat Mohini Charitable Society, it’s a governmental agency? I wonder why then... I wonder why it did not occur to the other two women and why Mrs. Jalal was rebuffed and why she (so far) does not seem to use the kitchen.

Malryn I am sorry not to have read the link earlier on the color red, I am not able on this ISP to read links normally, unfortunately on this ISP, it takes so long for pages to load. Sorry to put you to the trouble of having to go back again.

But speaking of the festival of color and colors, our library has a marvelous book on some of the hundreds of wonderful festivals in India, and I do remember lots of photos of the color on everything, I’ll see in the next two weeks (we’re a bit out from the library) if I can get hold of it and scan some of the photos in here of Holi,

The changing Narrators is quite interesting, I am not having a problem telling when they change (which is different, in some books it’s quite hard). I am having somewhat of a problem telling if one event precipitates this change, that is if they are working off each other or there is a dialogue going on here between Vishnu who is mute and the others.

That’s also a good point Laura on the reliability of the different voices! I agree with Hats, thank you for bringing THAT up, we need to watch for that. I do like your statement that Vishnu is the least reliable at this point. Of course we’ve got all that out of body stuff and I also was confused over his relationship with. I know he’s going around with the prostitute Padmini, but what of Kativa. We know SHE is in love in a true Romeo Juliet thing, with the Muslim son.

Emlyn, great points on the Divali and sparklers, and the colors, I could not quite get that straight.

This was fascinating, too:

Renunciating the things of life, that tool of progress on the way to Nirvana is definitely not on Vishnu's mind. On the contrary. Some of those around him are not living at all. Who would have thought?

So you think Nirvana is not on his mind? What would you say IS? All I see is what you mentioned earlier, Freedom, which IS Nirvana, tell us what you see? Like Laura I am at a real disadvantage here in Indian mysticism!

Kleo thank you for the information on the PIA Clocks. I had assumed this was something in many homes, how OLD is Air India, does anybody know? I have a feeling that reference brings smiles of recognition to many readers, but of course most of us have never seen one.

Thank you Laura for the Introduction to Hindu Mythology, I’ll ask that that be in the heading, too. Very useful!!

Thank you, Kleo, for the Kitty Party link (let’s have one? Hahahaa Let’s have a virtual one, it might be fun. They look wonderful!) Teen pathi, huh? I love card games, and would like to try. Kind of reminds me of some of the cruise card games I have seen, but there were more than one kitty there, but there WAS a big one at the end, everybody enjoyed it.

We need a Virtual Kitty Party!!

Scrawler, what an interesting thought: In a sense the other characters are peeling off their persona because indirectly they are thinking about him. Peeling off because of him, huh?

I'm still looking for the WHEEL or CIRCLE but I can't find the book with the illustrations in it! more anon....

As these characters "peel off" their outer personnas, what is going to emerge?

Or like the card-playing ladies, going for the kitty, playing the puck on the thin ice of suspicion, find it - full of social pitfalls.

Or like I find it. I couldn't pass up an opportunity to spend a few days in the wilderness. Goodness, I wasn't off somewhere licking my wounds. I must have left my friend with the wrong impression when I rushed off. I was with a couple of old friends at their camp up in bush country. When I told them what I was leaving behind, they said, tell them you've come up to Simla, like the Rajians of old, to beat the heat.

Thanks for filling in for me, Em. What are good friends for, eh?

Thanks, Ginny, for the superb demonstration of how smoothly things work here in SN.

And now to get caught up with and in the book and the posts. Great posts. Talking about Bombay. Mal provided a link, way back when, to some Bombay scenes. Among them was an open-stall food market, where, very clearly shown, they had whole grains in bulk for sale. That explained it later when Vishnu goes off to have the tenants' grain milled, an interesting little detail of Indian life, which does give the book a certain authenticity. Years ago, an Indian acquaintance told me of the food-adulteration problem in India. Of course, there are also a variety of dietary observances in India.

This also brings to mind Hats' mention of Vishnu as sustainer of the world. Can't one just see the Preserver in the Server? I know he's not altogether trustworthy, but who of us is? We're inevitably letting someone down, and thus destroying our world.

It is a good question. What are the Jalals doing in this Hindu household? I'm wondering, will Mr. Pathak murder his wife some day? So many mentions of movies. And mytholigies. How does one go about choosing a god for devotion in Hinduism?

We're really off to a good start. It usually takes most of the first week to get a feel for where everyone is coming from. Surely there can't be another book that gives so many points of departure, as VISHNU does.

Oh, heck, Jonathan, we didn't like losing you, but at least I suspected you of being out there having fun. I threw a tizzy yesterday (not over anything anyone did) and ran off for Indian food. I asked for curry hot hot hot, and them made it so mild my mother was able to split the order with me. They gave me the mild papadons, too.

The book is giving me huge food cravings. Samosas are the Indian dumplings, deep-fried dough filled often with spiced potato mixtures, eaten dipped in chutneys. Afghans and Pakistanis make them also. Afghan ones are won ton wrappers filled with spiced potato mixtures, eaten dipped in spiced yogurt (I ask for yogurt for mine at Indian restaurants since I grew up eating samosas dipped in yogurt and hot mint chutney). The Indian ones have a heavier bready wrapping, not the small wrapping of the Afghan ones. I haven't eaten Pakistani food in ages, but they eat both kinds. Afghans also eat boloni which is a bit like the Indian samosas, but is bread dough folded in half, filled with spiced potato mixture and then deep fried. Boloni can also have gondona, or Afghan leeks instead of just potato mixture.

Indian cheese is very good. It's soft fresh cheese, like Mexican cheeses, with the texture of tofu.

You can buy frozen Indian samosa in the supermarket of many stores, including places like Safeway and Albertsons. I don't know if this is a function of living in a place with a large Indian population, so I would appreciate if readers in here who live without large Indian populations check out their own supermarkets and let me know.

Kleo

Hi Jonathan, I am glad you are back. I am happy to know you were having fun. I have noticed a few places in the first four chapters where films are mentioned. I remembered our talk in the beginning, way back, about Bollywood. Also, Manil Suri mentions the importance of films to the people in India while talking to Michael Cunningham in the interview.

Kleo, your post is wonderful about all the different foods. I fell in love with the Samosas, the only food I looked up in the glossary. I know those are just delicious. I bet that Indian cheese is delicious.

Mal,I am going to look back over your Bombay link. Thanks for finding it.

Welcome back, Jonathan!!

Talking about Indian food, I love naan, we had it at Oxford and I have loved it ever since, all kinds of it. It's a sort of bread, I love the sweet ones best.

It was quite interesting, we went to an Indian restraurant at Oxford and it was fun because the professor was Indian and knew just what to ask for and of course they treated her like royalty, brought out all sorts of wonderful dishes she asked for off the menu, it was magic. The last dinner I attended here in SC in an Indian restaurant with our then class was also magic, and so much fun.

AND I have found my book on India!!! So hopefully I can bring in more asap.

I'm going to watch a new movie I just got, it's Indian and is called Dill I think, starring Aamir Khan, I'll let you know on Monday what I've learned from it.

Happy Weekend, Everybody!

Naan is bread in India. Just like Americans have many kinds of bread, so does India.

Fahrad Akhtar's Dil Chahta Hai (Do Your Thing) is a pretty good bit of Bollywood. Aamir Khan is one of Indian's most beloved actors, although I thought he was a bit old for his role in this movie--not a detraction, though.

Kleo

Mr. Pathak remembers a movie he and his wife along with the Asranis enjoyed. The name of the movie is "Main Chup Rahoongi." I don't know if this is a real title of a movie.

Yes, this is a major old film by Indian director A. Bhimsingh starring the famous Indian actress Mina Kumari. It's plot has been redone a zillion times.

Kleo

I went to www.yahooindia.com. And did a search for Vishnu and found this review by an Indian author.

Review by Navtej Sarna of Vishnu

"In the nonetheistic Buddhism there is no God who rewards good and punishes evil. Thus there is no outside intervention. Instead Budhism depends upon a notion of universal law and responsibility. This is called "karma" or the law of cause and effect. We look to no other creator as a first cause or moving principle of the universe. The law of causality is explained like basic physics: For every action, there is a reaction.

An important thing for seekers to remember is always to approach the laws of karma with a sense of balance. Don't use karma like a weapon to blame yourself, fate, or anyone else for everything that goes wrong. It doesn't make sense to go so far in one direction that we are constantly overcome by feelings of guilt and shame; nor is it helpful to go overboard in the other direction and develop a nililistic approach as if nothing matters. As the Buddha said, stay balanced in all things.

Since karma is a fundamental causative law, it affects everything and everybody. Plants, animals, nations, groups, and the world itself are part of the interwoven karmic process." ~ "Awakening to the Sacred" ~ Lama Surya Das

So the way I see it, in the continuing arguments between the Pathak's and the Asrani's they are using their karma like a weapon to blame each other for their fate. Not only do they blame each other but they also blame the dying Vishnu as well. If we believe that every action must have a reaction, how long do you think these these people can continue this course of action without something happening to them. According to the teachings of Buddha life should be balanced in all things. What do you think the Pathak's and the Asrani's could do to put "balance" back into their lives?

I wish that I had the time to read this book as it sounds quite interesting. I will try to get it at my library. Now, I am back to "Undaunted Courage" which is another fascinating read.

How very interesting, Scrawler, your post about Buddhism. In a way this book can be taken to extraordinary depths. Or heights. At first these neighbors made an attempt to enjoy each others' company. But the friendship faltered over missing trivial amounts of ghee, and water in the common tank. I have neighbors across the street, who haven't given a hello to each other for 25 years. Nobody remembers why not.

Buddhism is an offspring of Hinduism, isn't it? Perhaps all world religions are. Ancient India may have been the cradle, or the crucible, where mankind's religious propensities were developed or accounted for. Were the first Buddhists 'appalled' by the 'idol worship' around them. To the extent that they opted for 'causality' at the root of all our fortunes or misfortunes? The Hebrews followd suit, but took it too another extreme - the moral order of Judaism. Islam seems to have taken the uncertain middle path.

Hinduism however is again the 'roots' that an ancient people is finding for itself. I suppose the book may be an exercise in that direction for the author himself. What he says about the Gita seems to be in the way of discovery. Gandhi had the same experience, and taught his people the beauties of their religion. I seem to remember something like that from the discussion of his Autobiography a year or so ago. Of course he also used it to establish a sense of national identity.

This book is certainly something for jaded senses. The tastes! The smells! Life in blossom! In some scenes at least. To pass too quickly over the love scenes is, I believe, to be in a state of elderly denial. But Vishnu may be making a retrograde spiritual move by trying to recapture his youth.

Marj, that's a relly delightful review of the book. I strongly urge everyone to read it. Here's the summation at the end:

'Suri writes with obvious affection about a Bombay perhaps already lost, evoking easily its moods and attitudes, its light and smells. One can almost feel the heavy evening sea breeze or taste the roasted peanuts sold in paper cones along the sea wall or see the Maharaja looking down from the Air India hoarding. It is a Bombay that rings true with its Irani cafe, cigarettewalla, paanwalla and radiowalla who listens, as most people there did in the sixties, to Radio Ceylon. Manil Suri's sharp eye for detail and natural ability to create a strong sense of place and time define his considerable talent, and one can look forward with a certain assuredness to its maturing in his promised books on the other two Gods of the Hindu trinity, Brahma and Shiva.'

I agree, so much of it seems to ring true. The detail can be confirmed, as we are finding out. Eg, the movies and the stars. The reviewer suggests that the author is being sardonic in places. Methinks he is much too playful for that. Can there be any doubt that he remembers Vishnu with a lot of affection?

We have a bit of Bombay right here in Toronto. A huge statue of King Edward VII on his horse. It now stands in a prominent position in Queens Park, which surrounds our provincial legislative building. Bombayers were tearing it down after Independence, but it was rescued. Calcuttians must have been more, whatever. Queen Victoria still presides over that city from her pedestal.

"In what way is each character isolated from the others? What seems to have caused this?"

Certainly living in an apartment building they are physically isolated from each other simply by closing the door. Mrs. Asrani closes the door after she delivers the tea to Vishnu thus separating her from the dying Vishnu. Even as she closed the door, she wondered if Vishnu was alive or dead, but by physcially closing the door she isolated herself not only physically, but also mentally from him.

"If she wants it, let her have it," Mr. Pathak suggested, without hope. He knew what was coming, this was going to be a big one. Possibly, he and Mr. Asrani would be required to serve as well." (p.21)

By their actions we can see that neither of these characters are really listening to each other and thus even though they are physically in the same room they are isolating themselves from each other; not only by their actions but with their thoughts as well.

"However, neither Mrs. Pathak nor Mrs. Asrani had been willing to tell Vishnu he could not return; they had nagged their husbands to do it. The plan hadn't worked: Vishnu had been reinstated, much to their chagrin." (p.21)

Here is yet another example of the unwillingness of the characters to express their thoughts. None of the characters were willing to tell what they really thought of Vishnu. This is another kind of isolation. The kind like it was mentioned in an earlier post, where people won't speak to each other for years and nobody knows why they aren't speaking. It would have been much better for everyone in the apartment complex to tell Vishnu the truth. Then they all could have sat down and come up with a mutual solution. But by letting the situation go on and on, it only festered into an impossible situation.

.I don't think the people in this book are any more isolated than any of us. Isolation can be a form of self-protection, especially in places where there are numerous, numerous noisy people or in a multiple dwelling situation such as the apartment house described here.

I don't agree with the reviewer in his assessment of this book. It felt to me, as I read it, that he was trying to show he's a better writer than Suri more than anything else.

I love the description of Mr. Pathak's visit to the tea shop with the Gluco biscuits, crumbs and all. Will he feed those crumbs to Vishnu along with the samosas that fell apart and Mrs. Pathak's stale chapatis? Give the dried up leftovers to a god? What kind of a symbol is that?

Mal

I am having trouble with our thoughts on who is isolated too. I don't see the Pathaks and Asranis as isolated. If anything they live too closely. They share a kitchen.

I see Vishnu as isolated. I feel the closer death approaches we become less a part of humanity and slip away to a world that involves our innermost thoughts. I see death as a separation from the world of humanity, a going inward, a time to deal with whatever we haven't had time to deal with in our busy lives. Maybe death is like looking at a movie.

I think of the Jalals as isolated because of the religious differences in the household. Mr. Jalal's need to find the perfect way to worship is separating him from his wife and children. I think he stops sleeping with Mrs. Jalal. Mrs. Jalal no longer knows the needs or desires of her husband.

I love reading all the background information people are providing!

I read chapter eleven of the Bhagavad Gita, because the author says in his Note on Sources, “The central revelation that forms the heart of The Death of Vishnu is of course the famous eleventh chapter.” I got nothing from it. Oh well..

Kleo, I will check on my next grocery shopping trip to see if our grocery store stocks frozen Indian samosa. I live on the south coast of Maine, one of the least ethnically diverse areas in the U.S.

Ginny, I was interested to see that you ate Indian food in Oxford, England. I lived there for 18 months during 1998-2000. The only Indian food I have ever eaten was in Oxford, at a restaurant in north Oxford, on Walton Street, I believe. Small world…

I was glad to read Lama Surya Das’ quote from Scrawler: “It doesn’t make sense to go so far in one direction that we are constantly overcome by feelings of guilt and shame; nor is it helpful to go overboard in the other direction and develop a nililistic approach as if nothing matters.” How I wish Mrs. Pathak and Mrs. Asrani could apply this to their feud! It seems to me that they both are so busy observing and counting the relatively smallest of things that they have lost sight of the big picture. Whatever supplies go missing will balance each other out…maybe if they could concentrate on each other as people instead of as inventories of supplies.

The talk of isolation makes me think of the kitty party. Mrs. Pathak seemed isolated from the group of women at the party. She was so worried about providing the right environment and the right food, and saying and doing the right thing, so as not to offend anyone, I wondered why she tortured herself. I know, status. But she still felt isolated from the group she was trying so hard to be a part of.

In the reading guide introduction, the statement is made that “Vishnu’s own life flashes before his eyes and takes him through the stages of life in the Hindu universe.”

In my continuing quest to understand the spiritual aspects of this book, I did some research on the stages of life in the Hindu universe.

I found two web sites.

This one is simple and easy to understand, but maybe a little too simple (plus it has an annoying pop up ad, so I pasted the info. below):

Simple Four Stages of Hindu Life

FOUR STAGES OF HINDU LIFE

Brahmacharya Ashrama This stage begins when a child enters school at an early age and continues until he or she has finished all schooling . The goal is to acquire knowedge, build character and learn to shoulder resonsibilities.

Grhastha Ashrama This stage begins at marriage. In this ashrama an individual pays three debts (service of God, serving sages and saints and to ancestors), and enjoys good and noble things in life in accordace with Artha-Kama-Moksha.

Vanaprastha Ashrama After the responsibilities of Grahastha ashrama are complete (when one’s children have reached adulthood) one enters this ashrama. This is known as ascetic or hermit stage of life. In this stage one gradually withdraws from active life and begins devoting more time to study of scriptures, contemplation and meditation.

Sannyasa Ashrama This ashrama is the final stage of life in which an individual mentally renounces all worldly ties, spends all of his or her time in meditation and contemplation and ponders over the mystries of life. In ancient times one wouldpart company with one’s family and become a mendicant

This one is more complex, but, with a willingness to read for additional information without feeling the need to understand every word, provides some interesting tidbits:

Detailed Four Stages of Hindu Life

I thought these stages would be helpful in understanding Vishnu’s journey he takes in his mind.

In addition, I think the book provides characters in each stage of Hindu life, so this information could help us to understand them better.

For everyone except Professor Suri. He's going scientific on us. We can see that in his curving staircase. And in Vishnu's backward look to his body on the landing. His life, Vishnu concludes, was a struggle for space. Generating, guarding, hoarding space. Perhaps none but the disembodied can fully understand. Or mathematicians. Space lends itself to mathematical conjecturing and theorizing. Give a mathematician a spatial problem and his instinct for solving things kicks in. We could have seen it coming, with the talk, a few pages earlier of

'Electrons being blown out of their orbits, atoms and molecules rearranged, heat being generated, etc.' p71

Be that as it may. Has Vishnu died? He seems to think so, after his fashion. He has ascended a few steps, and looks back. What a spectral scene on the landing. It freezes ones blood. Described in the little, last scene of Act 4. There is Mr Jalal, feeling for Vishnu's heartbeat, assuming him still alive. We can see in a moment, why Mrs Jalal has become so alarmed by her husband's strange behavior. He is obviously entranced, hovering over Vishnu's body.

No one else thinks he has died. Kavita is planning to leave him a hundred-rupee bill before eloping with Salim. Mrs Jalal allows herself to believe that Vishnu may not be 'all that sick', might even be tricked into recovery with a few rupees. Mrs Pathak is certain that Vishnu must be 'quite comfortable' under the new sheet she has provided him. Mrs Asrani, no doubt, knows only, or hopes, that she'll be serving him tea in the morning.

What an awakening it is for Vishnu, after the noisy conversation among the women has abated, and each has gone into their shell. A most astounding awareness of a wider space greets Vishnu's new being:

'...a universe of sound, never noticed before. Small sounds, tiny sounds - the footsteps of ants, the scurrying of beetles, the rustling of spiders, springing up from the ground. He hears the flight of a gnat across his face, he feels the rhythm of centipedes rippling the walls, he listens to the murmurs of cicadas rising from the trees outside. All the the insects in the world are calling to him, he can hear their cries from forests and fields, far away; they are calling his name, telling him their stories, asking him to track their progress as they crawl and creep and fly to their destinyations.'

Especially the ants. Mrs. Pathak's "Damn ants". Vishnu can hear the dying ants under Mrs. P's heel. 'The screams are so loud that Vishnu covers his ears. He thinks of children run over by cars, families crushed by buildings, people burnt alive. He covers his ears to keep the agony out, but the screams claw them apart and burrow into his brain.' p83

Vishnu has squished so many ants himself, by his own admission. Then again:

'There are other things alive on in the stairs as well. Tiny bugs flit in the evening light filtering in through the window. A mosquito hums next to his ear. He feels he is in a forest, and there is life hiding everywhere.' p82

Waiting for rebirth?

It's all too, too, too strange, as Mrs Bawa might say.

LauraD, thank you for the Four Stages of Hindu Life.

Reading about the ants and Vishnu reminded me of a fly. Emily Dickinson wrote about a person dying and the buzzing of a fly. I am not sure this part of the poem fits this discussion or any part. It's just what kept floating in my mind. I had to share it with my bookie friends.

I Heard A Fly Buzz When I Died
Emily Dickinson

I heard a fly buzz when I died;
The stillness round my form
Was like the stillness in the air
Between the heaves of storm.

Reading about Vishnu's death, is so different from my theories about death. Instead of moving away from life, Vishnu seems to be drawing closer to life. Through his journey into death Vishnu seems to assess his life. He wonders how many ants he has stepped on in his life. He worries about "children run over by cars, families crushed by buildings, people burnt alive..."

It is my impression that Vishnu while dying is reliving his life. He is changing his thought processes. He is becoming a different man while dying. Dying, then, is about living. Did someone already say these words in a post? What a fascinating book!

That's a good point, Hats, I've been wondering that, myself, I think I agree he's reliving his own life as he lies dying.

Marj, that’s interesting, thank you. I sort of agree with him (at least it gives me an excuse not to understand a word of the philsophy here hahahaa), but I’ve copied out Laura’s 4 stages and am trying to piece them in.

Jonathan, Dr. Suri? Wow, so he is, and in Maryland, too. Wouldn’t HE be a good guest at the SN National Conference, I’d love to get his viewpoint on some of this. Yes it’s very different and very confusing too.

Laura, you were in Oxford 18 months!?! Tell ALL!! What were you doing there? Walton Street? I can’t find my way out of my own driveway, all I can remember is we left Christ Church (Tom Tower) and walked in one direction and then that particular restaurant for some reason did not suit, was not open or did not suit, and we then set out into parts unknown in another direction and I swear walked 10 miles. I fell back with one of the older gentlemen who observed that we really should have taken a taxi. It was a long long LONG way! I am sure I could never find it again. I will look up Walton Street on the map.

I was quite taken with the Martyr’s Monument and Cranmer’s cross in the road there going toward Blackwell’s.

Despite the extensive reading list before the course I was quite taken aback with the tutor style of teaching, sort of confrontational; it was truly an EXPERIENCE just as they bill it, and contrary to expectation had as many Asians as it did Americans hahaaha in the student body.

Malryn and Hats, I think for me the “Isolation” is the “Isolation” one can feel in a crowd. You can be physically in the middle of a mob but emotionally and spritiulally alone.

I think that Suri here does a fanstastic job, one of the best I ever saw, actuallly, in showing Mr. Jalal through Chapter 7 (is that where we are?) in his quest TO belong. He starts out going to reform his new wife so he can share things with her, she’ll be just like him; that fails, and then he has one of the most poignant spiritual quests I ever saw.

Physically he’d like to be part of something, to experience something, to end his spiritual and emotional isolation: he enters a parade of self flagellation, but can’t even do that, the belt buckle, poor guy. So he keeps on trying, he longs TO (as I see it) end his Isolation, spiritually, and ends up next to Vishnu physically, trying to be part of this experience he seeks so desperately. Poor thing his quest is almost...almost funny. Is this intended as satire?

Now what the WALNUTS episode means I don’t know. He’s had a Third Eye (the dot on the forehead indicating a third eye which sees? I forget what it sees or symbolizes) but he’s got it now.

I must read Laura’s 4 stages again. I wonder if MarJ’s review is correct and his religious philosophies here are quite mixed?

"Famous eleventh chapter," huh?hahaha Well in for a penny in for a pound, let's all give it a go. We can't be any worse off philosophically than we are with the walnuts, huh?

Why walnuts one wonders, why not...betel nuts or something? Why, specifically walnuts?

Here are a couple of things that might be of interest from the Waterstone book on India

Here is an 18th century manuscript of the Bhagavad Gita. I have a feeling the translation is not going to help much either, hahaha. Here are “Arjuna and Krishna on the battlefield, the latter turning his head to deliver the famous sermon known as the Bhagavad Gita.”

And here is one circle, this is Shiva dancing in a halo of flames symbolizing his radiating energy:

And here a woman enters the Swaminarayana temple at Bhuj in Gujarat. The doors are painted with Vishnu’s ten avatars; above them is Krishna, with a lotus below his feet, flanked by cows, a monkey, and an angel.

Addenda: yesterday’s NY Times had a large article on the “Mumbay/ Bombay” renaming cities issue, it's interesting if you get a chance to veiw it.

Ginny, thank you for adding so much to the discussion. There is the wheel or circle you have been talking about too.

"Simplicity is beautiful; simplicity is spiritual; simplicity is a blessing. Simplicity is where we want to be. Less is definitely more.

In our own busy lives, we wish for simple elegance; we long for a return to purity, naturalness, and innocence. But as much as we may yearn for a way of life that reflects simplicity, we usually don't have that way." ~ "Awakening to the Sacred" ~ Lama Surya Das

Of all the characters only Vishnu has accomplished the "simplicity" of life. While all the other characters are running around doing what they "do" he is forced to stay in the moment right where he lays. It is this reason that he hears the ants scream under the feet of the other characters and it in his mind's eye that he sees other atrocities.

Because he is forced to remain in one place he accomplishes living a simplicity of life. It is interesting that in the end we probably all will be content to wait for death with only a sheet, a place to lay our heads, and a good cup of tea or in my case a good cup of coffee.

Perhaps, what we should be saying in time that we have is not "Do I have everything I need?" but instead wonder, "Do I really need everything I have?" After all what is the old saying: "you can't take it with you."

Interesting comments, Scrawler. This was Mother Theresa's most important ministry, to provide a place for the dying.

"Do I really need everything I have?"

Kleo

Can there be any doubt that the more one knows of the Indian cultural and religious heritage, the more one will enjoy a book like DofV? Four Stages is very useful in that respect. And the other links to reincarnation, the god Vishnu, the glorious pics of Indian life and icons.

Hats, Emily Dickinson's 'Fly Buzz' must have come naturally to mind after reading of Vishnu's awareness of insects after stepping away from his body. Something strange has happened to him, hasn't it? You say in post 233:

'He is becoming a different man while dying.'

I agree. It must be even more than that. It seems to me that these millions of insects are looking to him, appealing to him, as to the god Vishnu. They are crying to the god Vishnu. For Justice? The screams of dying children, I believe, are for the new Vishnu the cries of the millions of insects that have been stepped on, or suffered otherwise, as the result of the cruelty and thoughtlessness of a higher species. Vishnu now sees and hears things he never saw or heard before. So, might not all these insects be appealling to him, The Preserver Vishnu, for preservation, or even a boost up, as they migrate through their reincarnational stages? These may be prayers he is hearing.

Laura, your were in Oxford for 18 months? I missed a post. I'm sorry about that.

Ginny, we're only at the end of Chapter 4. You're on a tear. We want to make this last. hahaha...

Mr. Jalal comes close to stealing the show with the worries he's causing his wife, with showing off his questing spirit. His wrestling with his inner demons. His self-inflicted Gethsemenes, which are getting him nowhere. The walnuts lie in the future. For the moment it's only his subjective, spiritual dramatics that have the reader wondering about his sanity.

Vishnu has embarked on his ayana of ayanas (journey), much like that of his divine predecessor incarnation, Rama. Rama, too, awakened in a forest like Vishnu (what a treat after Bombay!) to begin a god's earthly manifestation.

But how about Mrs. Asrani? Is her 'mission', as she thinks of it, to find a suitable husband for her daughter Kavita, any less challenging than Mr. Jalal's search for enlightenment? What doesn't it take, to find a husband! Scouring the earth (newspaper ads in Toronto). Searching the heavens (drawing up horoscopes). Manil Suri is depicting a society in his novel. What can be more curious than taking a look at the rites of matchmaking?

And what about Kavita? Is she a healthy, normal 18-year old? Or a willful, spoilt teenager, only looking for a scene to play? And doesn't she know how to pick and play one.

Aren't they all looking for a scene to play? Isn't that the purpose of teenagers, Jonathan, to cause their parents untold angst and worries and concerns by playing a totally appropriate scene? Kavita's just being dutiful.

Egads!

Kleo

Jonathan and Scrawler, your posts are beyond thoughtful. I will read these two posts about Vishnu and simplicity again.

I go along with Kleo about teenage girls.

Since both leaders asked, I will pop in with this non-book message…

Our family lived in Oxford for 18 months because my husband was working for a British company.

We arrived a month before my oldest son turned three, my youngest soon was born there, and we left when he was 14 weeks old. We lived in a terraced home (townhouse) in a new estate of homes (subdivision, neighborhood) in Walton Manor, north Oxford. We had one car, a company car that my husband drove to work each day, so I walked most places, even while very pregnant. Needless to say, my life was not conducive to lots of site seeing, but I did have the opportunity to do most “tourist stuff,” as well as do a bit of traveling. However, the most interesting part of living abroad was living as people in Oxford do --- using the appliances, volunteering at the preschool, shopping, watching TV, etc. I can always go back and do the tourist stuff.

Ginny, my Oxford Blue Guide only lists three Indian restaurants, none of which are the one I went to, so who knows. I know Blackwells, but did my book shopping at Waterstone’s or on-line via Amazon (the UK was way behind the US in on-line retail merchants at the time). I don’t know Cranmer’s, nor was it listed in my book.

I am happy to chat about this more with any of you all. Just e-mail me.

Jonathan, sorry, I thought we were in week II, 5-7.

I did read Chapter 11 of the Bhagavad Gita (here's a puzzle, I no longer remember how to say Mahabharata (unless it's ma ha bar AT ah), but I did take a course in Indian Literature 40 years ago and THAT professor (but what does HE know) pronounced it as:

Bah gah va GEE ta. Really fast. That GEE stands out, and they call it the Gita, also. I like the way it sounds. At any rate, I can see the connection to this Vishnu text and the Mr. Jalal episodes (it's sort of a copy) , while not understanding one word, in the final scene in Chapter 7 so will wait till you all get there. I do have a burning question! hahahaa

Laura!! 18 months! Don't you love the washing machines? hahahaaa now they're coming over here. The longest I have stayed in the UK was 6 weeks in a house in Cornwall. We must have just missed each other in Oxford, I think we were there in 2002. I'll write you for the map of the restaurants I may remember the name? (like pigs will suddenly fly hahaha). We in SeniorNet's Books were getting up a trip to Oxford to participate in the Oxford Experience, courses at Christ Church, it ended out only one went (me) but two of us went to England before I left for the college, (that's our second Books Trip to England) and this fall two more from SN will attend a week long symposium at Oxford's Christ Church on Espionage, it looks wonderful. One of them is Fran Middleton, a SN Advisory Board Member now posting in the 20th Anniversary Reunion area.

I am an unrepentant tourist, (I have no choice, 6 weeks is the longest I can stay overseas, I am green with jealousy over your 18 months!!!) I like to go on my own or with friends without a tour and get lost hahahaa Everything is new to me! I've gone to Rome now for the past 12 years straight, I still get lost. Every time. Every single time.

I can't imagine anything more dreamy than 18 months among the spires!

Cranmer?? I'll write!!!

Quite a difference, isn't there, in Mother Teresa's ministrations to the dying and what happens to Vishnu here, quite striking actually.

Interesting point Scrawler on Vishnu having attained a simplicity of life. He has not always sought one, tho as we can see in this section, but he's forced to now, I guess, in dying. OR??

I see quite a difference in purpose in Mr. Jalal and the other characters and I agree he begins to steal the show. He can't lie physically next to his wife because he seeks the opposite of Isolation and she can't give it to him, it's quite interesting, I think.

Thank you Hats, appreciate that!

So in chapter 4 mrs. Jalal has resigned herself to a sort of Spiritual Isolation when she says, "She reconciled herself to practicing her faith alone, qand never being able to share this part of her existence with her family."

So there is an undertone here of irony, in that she seems the religious one, she is islolated because of it, but Mr. Jalal, in chapter 4, in his own seeking, isolates himself even more. I am beginning to wonder what statement the author is making about..religion.

"She was so tired, so tired of being the one. The eating, the fasting the aloneness, the silence."

These two people, married, are isolated, again in my own opinion, from each other ironically BY religion. Right? Wrong?

As chapter 4 ends Vishnu sees Mr. Jalal, "crouching next to his body, staring up through the darkness towards heaven."

It's interesting to me that Vishnu here is having an out of body experience, and to go along with that, his own reflections, have you noticed, are mere reporting without conclusion or... I can't seem to put a verbal term on what I'm seeing.

The ants scream. He wonders how many he has killed, but we're not seeing, or I am not yet, any personal reaction. He's not saying Oh yes I am now a ghost, I have achieved Nirvana, I feel good about this or bad about this, he's jsut recording. It's quite a nice technique, in that it makes the reader really "get" the strange out of body experience, he's floating and recording what he sees. All the rest of the characters are operating on emotions and personal needs. His seem removed, maybe it's me? I am not sure what this signifies.

I was at an Antiques Fair yesterday and found a RAMAYANA displayed. Not a first edition of course, but a recent retelling by Ramesh Menon. Hence the quote.

Don't we all pray for the same thing when it comes to the crunch: Give us this day our daily bread. But a mantra to fix tiredness would be neat. Then why do guys like Mr Jalal get so greedy with their notions of out-of-this-world notions of life experiences? What a contrast to Vishnu, who was always gratified with what he could hold in his arms. And here he is, having divinity conferred on him without really trying at all. Already recognized as a god by all the insect world. Don't you agree, Hats? All that buzzing and chirping and murmuring is just the insects singing their mantras, saying their prayers. I'm not sure of Suri's cicadas, however. Indian cicadas may murmur, but the ones I've heard in the DC area have driven me crazy with their ear-splitting screeching. Are they hurting that much.

Very interesting, Laura, to hear about your stay in Oxford. How did you come by your keen interest in India?

I have enjoyed reading Ginny and LauraD's experiences at Oxford. Thank you.

Ginny captures my feelings about the Jalal's. It's amazing. In a house so full of religious thoughts, rituals and books there is this isolation, no unity. Also, it seems Mr. Jalal's search leads him farther away from a peaceful path of spirituality. At least, in his shopping for the right religion or rituals, he discovers what is impossible for him to accept. Throwing a belt against his body doesn't work. The belt buckle hooks in his skin. Mr. Jalal realizes he doesn't like pain.

Finally, he looks at Vishnu. Mr. Jalal becomes totally involved, captivated by the death of Vishnu. He think Vishnu's death might lead him to some spiritual truth. He decides to lie down beside him for a whole night. Mr. Jalal touches Vishnu's curl of hair. He watches him breathe. He wonders what he is or isn't thinking. So far I find Mr. Jalal the most complex character of all, at least for now. I don't think all of the characters have been introduced.

What drives some people to seek spirituality more than other people? Is it fear of what might come after death?

By reading about Vishnu are we to become more accepting of death or are we to become more appreciative of life? I am not sure what lessons to take from Vishnu's, not very satisfying death? Not many of us want to die on a landing with our personal bodily functions losing control? The ants strolling around the body isn't a pretty sight either. Is Manil Suri wanting us to see the importance of allowing all people, no matter their lifestyles, the right to die with dignity?

I do realize that dying with dignity is harder in some countries than other countries.

Doesn't that have a Martin Luther King ring to it. But here it is Mr Jalal who feels that way. He feels he has reached a goal. Even more.

'Mr Jalal wanted to be pure. He wanted to rise, to be enlightened, to be introduced to the rapture of faith. He yearned for it more than anything else.' p87

It seems we are about to get a lesson in religious experience.

His Koran has prodded Mr Jalal with its promise:

'Happy are those who have purified themselves.'

Mr Jalal has come a considerable spiritual and intellectual odyssey by the time our story begins. He has read a great deal. He has thought much. There must have been a purpose when he chose to live with Hindus as neighbors. When he chose to practice their methods. The big experience for himself, with a hope, also, of bringing Hindu and Muslim together.

The conflict between Hindu and Muslim is always there. Mrs Asrani has also talked about the tension in the air, when she said:

'If we can't all live in harmony in this building, what hope is there for the nation?'

Mr Jalal wants to implement reforms tried by the Mugal Emperor Akbar centuries before. Mrs Asrani, the Hindu, might like that too, but first she wants to prevent her daughter from marrying that 'flying cockroach' Salim, the son of Mr Jalal, the Muslim.

To long for the rapture of faith! How does one come by that, after denying it for a lifetime. I'm curious to see how the man of science and logic, Professor Suri, handles this one.

I have wondered for a while about reincarnation. To have to die and be reborn over and over is a hard concept for me to comprehend. Just as Mr. Jalal's bashing himself up in the name of purification and faith is difficult for me, too. It reminds me of the dude Silas in The DaVinci Code whose mantra was "Pain is good." Like sez who? I found his antics hard to swallow, too.

Suri has made Jalal into a comic figure, in my opinion. That's okay. A lot of this book is farcical, as some Bollywood movies are farcical. In fact, i think the book would make a very good Bollywood film.

As far as Vishnu and simplicity are concerned, if you've ever been really, truly sick, when drawing each breath tires you out, and it's a real struggle to breathe another, there's no choice about it, life is simple because it has to be. That's all there is left -- simplicity.

Suri has done a good job describing Vishnu's out of body experience. I base this statement on the time I was hung with leather straps that went around my head and up to the ceiling where they were attached -- for medical reasons. I suppose I was around eleven years old at the time.

As I hung there with my feet and all the rest of me dangling in the air, waiting for a plaster cast that had been applied from the base of my neck to my hipbones to dry, I went away and sat on a corner of a tall white cabinet watching the poor girl who was going through all this. I felt very objective as I observed the girl, who wasn't part of me at all. It's an experience I'll never forget or ever want to repeat.

The cast I mention was sliced down the middle of the front after it dried, and was held together with four one inch wide metal "straps" about six inches long. I wore it night and day for a year. Mr. Jalal should have tried that to see what kind of spirituality and purification he'd receive.

Maybe what I'm saying is that life can hand you its own painful means for becoming pure without any kind of outside help from us.

Mal

Hats, you asked what were we supposed to get from the way the author wrote this novel in regards to death. Perhaps the following will help you to understand the concept better:

"We Buddhists are taught to preserve life, [and] to appreciate life...Yet thinking about death - reflecting on our mortality is a fundamental Buddhist spiritual practice. Not wishing for death, not hoping for death, not doing anything to hasten death, but "thinking" about death. In fact, the Buddha said that death was his guru; death was his greatest teacher.

Through the centuries, people often feel that religious doctrine frightens people by talking about things like hell, fire, and brimstone. I agree that it often seems unnecessarily scary, exaggerated, and even objectionable. And yet an awareness of death is often the propelling consideration for those on a spiritual path." ~ "Awakening to the Sacred" ! Lama Surya Das

If we take this information and apply it to the characters in the story, we can see where not only Vishnu is thinking about death, but also both of the Jahal's are thinking indirectly about death.

Mr. Jahal thinks he is on the "spiritual path," but is he really? He certainly does things to himself that to me would not only be scary, exaggerated and even objectionable. Mrs. Jahal is also on her own "spiritual path," and according to her it is a lonely path.

But isn't that true of most "spiritual paths" that one follows? To me each person should follow their own path and not try and seduce others into thinking theirs is the only way. To me the author is trying to get the readers not only to "think" about death, but also about life and finding the spiritual path that is right for each of us.

Jonathan asked about my keen interest in India…

I would say I have a keen interest in other countries, languages, and cultures, not just India.

I can remember learning some Spanish while watching Sesame Street and being upset that I couldn’t learn more. It wasn’t until high school that I could finally study a foreign language in school. I learned Spanish, went on a trip to Spain for two weeks during my junior year of high school, received a Spanish minor in college, took up Italian while in college, lived in England, traveled abroad, and now I am dabbling in French, with future travel abroad on my life’s agenda. My favorite genre is historical fiction and my favorite writer is Jhumpa Lahari. I relish books that take me to other places and submerge me in other times and cultures.

I have literally always been interested in this topic.

How about others? How did you all become interested in reading books from around the world (Maybe you discussed this already when you created the reading group)?

Great thoughts on spirituality, death, and life. I am not sure of the author’s exact intentions regarding life and death. I, myself, kept thinking about the theme of how people treat each other, whether in life or death.

I am confused by your statement, Jonathan, that “there must have been a purpose when [Mr. Jalal] chose to live with Hindus as neighbors.” I don’t recall anything in the book about him choosing to live in the building because Hindus were or weren’t there. Did I miss it? I don’t recall reading about which neighbors were in the building first, etc.

As for my opinion on Mr. Jalal and his self inflicted punishments, I have to agree with Mal. I was initially sympathetic to his quest, even though I found his feeble attempts at self punishment comical, unlike those of Silas in The DaVinci Code. I thought he was just creepy.

I have an idea about Mr. Jalal’s function in the novel, but must wait until next week when I can support my idea with some concrete examples from the book.

What drollery. While Mr. Jalal wonders what holy tremors are causing Vishnu's skin to feel hot, what profound, truth-revealing vision is causing Vishnu's forehead to furrow, his lips to tremble, his heavy breathing, Vishnu - all the while - lies basking in erotic memories of nights with Padmini, beside the Arabian Sea.

Very likely the lascivious scenes are intended by the author to serve a moral purpose, and will turn out to be an aspect of the illusory life that wise men deplore. Sure enough, the author brings in the Towers of Silence and the vultures, to serve as a momenti mori for the passionate Vishnu and his sweetheart Padmini.

Its almost with relief that we join the Asranis on their way to Mrs. Lalwani's, to meet Kavita's prospective husband, Pran. It's all straight Bollywood for Kavita, and she leaves Pran smitten with her beauty. And, by admitting it, Pran begins to turn Kavita's head, for real, or, at the very least, puts a nagging doubt there. Salim's chances may be fading.

Meanwhile, back in Mr. Jalal's stolen Fiat, or was it an Ambassador, Vishnu and Padmini stop at the halwai shop for some 'bhajia hot-hots'. Vishnu, his passion spent, asks about Padmini's mother. This seems to be a part of her life that Padmini does not wish to discuss, since she replies, 'her face tight',

'I haven't come here to relate my Ramayana to you.'

And so it happened, wanting to know more, that I bought the RAMAYANA at the Fair. It's looks good. The whole megillah. Una Iliade.

Laura, it seemed to me that Mr. Jalal had tried everything else, and wished to get closer to Hinduism. What better place than among them. Perhaps I'm anticipating on this one. Perhaps it's the ancestral voices. Many Indian Muslims must have Hindi forbears.

The research pays off --- I understand this scene!

Vishnu, the man dying on the landing, morphs into one of the incarnations of Vishnu, the god, and gives Mr. Jalal a message.

I want to go back to the various sites I posted and pull something more detailed together, hopefully later today or tomorrow morning. Maybe others want to pull some thoughts together and we can cross reference our ideas.

I am riding in the stolen car with Vishnu and Padmini. For the first time I see the face behind the man lying on the steps of the staircase. Vishnu is no different than other people. He dreams of a life with a wife, a child, a daily job and a "kerosene stove like his mother had." In other words, somewhere to live other than a staircase. So, Vishnu is a man, no different from others, his mind is filled with hopes and dreams.

At the end will I see a complete picture of Vishnu from life to death? I already know a little bit about his childhood. Now here is the man while with a prostitute wondering what if....

I remember reading "Pomegranate Soup" by Marsha Mehran. The Iranian restaurant filled with different vegetables and meats cooking just stretched the imagination. Now, in "The Death of Vishnu" I experience the same feeling. The descriptions of the foods and smells are delightfully exotic taking my mind and body to a foreign place.

"Everywhere were piles of fruits and vegetables, mounds of glossy black brinjals, pyramids of carefully stacked oranges, baskets of ripe red tomatoes, and most precious of all, crates filled with green and yellow mangoes..."

I have been to outdoor farmer markets. The fruits and vegetables just ooze with colors. It's impossible not to overspend. These places are so different from the cold, indoor supermarkets. I can't imagine what it is like to shop in the marketplaces of India or Turkey or Egypt or Africa or Greece. I bet the sensations are wonderful not to mention the wonderful tastiness of the produce.

Thanks for the challenge, Laura. The last scene of Chapter Seven, everybody. What does it mean? We have a few days to mull it over in our minds. My own thoughts have been blown in all directions by this book. I doubt if I'll ever get them back together again...

Hats, may each of us be able to say when the discussion is over, I've been to Bombay. I've been to India. You're right. Fruit markets are glorious places. I was attracted by a display of them the other day. A woman was selecting several for herself. I asked her for tips on choosing one, and so we talked about mangoes for a while. It caused strange vibrations for me, when she suddenly said, it's a fruit fit for the gods.

But Suri gives the reader a very good, graphic picture of a down to earth Bombay doesn't he. In all the small details.

"I am what you taste in water. I am what you see in air. I am the breath in every flower. I am the life in every creature. I am all living things. I am creation itself. Look at me and see in my body the whole universe."

"Fortunate are those who recognize my presence. Blessed are those who acknowledge me, worship me. Tell them down there to recognize me for who I am. I can wait only so long. Before it is too late, too late for all. For I have come to save and destroy the universe." (pp. 148-149)

"Vishnu [the god] has no particular material form but can be manifest in any form, whether animate or inanimate. According to Vishnava belief, He is the center of all forces, power, will, auspiciousness, goodness, beuty, grace, responsiveness, etc. In short, whatever we can think of we cannot think of -- all are Vishnu."

"...Vishnu can travel in three strides. The first stride is the Earth. The second stride is the visible sky. The third stride cannot be seen by men and is the heaven where the gods and the righteous dead live..."

So to me what Jalal saw was the god Vishnu in his many forms. "A huge mouth opened up and snapped at the air...Giant fangs snaked out to blow fire...demons take shape...demons bared their teeth...the heads had multiplied, and were now craning their long necks...A steady stream of gods and ghosts and demons were passing from mouth to open mouth, undaunted by skulls and mangled bodies dangling between the teeth..." (p. 148)

As to why Jalal saw this god. "...Lucky are those to whom I show myself, for it is not through penance or rituals that you will see me." (p.148)

You might say that Vishnu was trying to put the fear of god into him. I think Jalal saw this vision because the god Vishnu was trying to tell him that it was not through penance or rituals that he would achieve spirituality.

Wow! I need to catch up. Scrawler's post proves some interesting happenings are coming around the way. I need to lead the marketplace.

How do you explain Radiowalla's change in behavior? At first he proudly shares his radio music. Then, he changes. He listens to news programs, he turns the radio down in front of others. Is Radiowalla seeing his radio as some spiritual entity? I am beginning to believe the characters are on some spiritual quest.

One part of spirituality is having a routine. Perhaps, Radiowalla has made listening to his radio a time of becoming spiritual. This is why he doesn't want to share the radio with Vishnu, Tall and short Ganga anymore. The radio brings him closer to a set time with whoever on the radio is answering is spiritual needs.

Through Mrs. Jalal, I can also see the importance of a routined time for worship. In the marketplace she longingly remembers Mosque rituals.

"She missed having the masjid with the peacock-green tiles just around the corner, missed the summons from the prayer tower that marked each day into regular segments."

While dying, is Vishnu's search continuing? The search for the routine that spirituality offers? Is it possible to be spiritual without rituals?

Oddly, Radiowalla ends up in his own little world too. He is isolating himself from others. What do these people need to bring them together?

I like that statement by Scrawler that the laws of Karma must be in balance. It's a bit like my husbands belief that "moderation" in all things is healthy; to tip the scale one way or the other disparity will result. This balance islike a form of self-possession or stability, isn't it? I wish I could live in that manner, creating harmony. That would be a start to the childhood Brahmacharya Ashrama 1st step =The goal being to acquire knowedge, build character and learn to shoulder resonsibilities.
Who decides when this first stage ends, though?
When do we ever acquire enough knowledge? At what point is our character, our integrity, or our dispositions ever established to the point that we can move up the next step on the Hindu ladder? hmmm, this is interesting thinking. I would love to learn more about this.

Grhastha Ashrama- This stage begins at marriage. Is this the reason that so many of these young folks are encouraged to marry at such an early age? Do their parents wish for these children to experience this stage as soon as possible? I see the Kavitra and Phan are enduring the beginning of this stage. Must you go thru each stage in its entirety before you can reach the next stage?

There is a lot to said for the Vanaprastha Ashrama step. I think that at this point I am experiencing this stage of life. I feel myself withdrawing slowly from many things that I have often indulged myself in. Is this a normal stage for people our age? I read more scripture now, I contemplate more at this point and I will myself to study something unknown to me.

Sannyasa Ashrama- ah now -that is the step that I have most often seen people reaching toward. I believe that one's mind and soul must be at peace with their mere mortals existance here on earth before they can meet their final destiny. Hats said that thru his journey toward death Vishnu is assessing his life. Exactly- one cannot "move on" until they have attained that peace. The past must be encountered again; events must be re-examined, analyzed and an understanding of your choices in life must then be accepted before harmony can be reached.

I love this- each of these characters are attaining one stage or another here in this story.

Hats- you state: "Oddly, Radiowalla ends up in his own little world too. He is isolating himself from others. What do these people need to bring them together?"

It appears to me that their close proximity creates an aura of imposition. Everyone is imposing on one another in this story.
Each person seems burdened by the presumption of someone else. Radio man is put off because each person now expects to be entertained. He doesn't feel that he is speacial in this caste any longer. They seek his property and he becomes transparent over time.
Kavita is being dictated to by her mothers desire to marry her off. The mother has all but made a decree that she will marry Phan. The strain is on the dictates each character puts on the other.
The pitiful Mrs. Jalal while pondering why Ahmmed ever came to love her remembers that she was taken away from her world and in anger she now dictates to Ahmed; always presuming. Doesn't Vishnu himself infringe? He takes what he wants; a Fiat, Padmini, stolen money. He's presumptuous and arrogant.
I did get a kick out of Shayamu, the brother of Kavita. I guess he's till too young for his insolence to be taken seriously and he meets the slaps and smacks of the parental curse.

These characters are just like family memebers. They live on top of one another mind each other's business ad nauseum. so-- Hats, with that said I don't think anything will bring them together - they are already together, feeding off each other and coalescing their existence(s).
They are forever integrated and fused in their lives.

Mr Jalal's vision is certainly spectacular. When it comes, it just seems to mean he got lucky. One has to believe, however, that Vishnu was rewarding him for his perseverance. In the scene itself, I found it a great relief to see the old Vishnu sitting on the step beside Mr Jalal, looking very well, cracking walnuts, and addressing Mr Jalal as Ahmed, which seems overly familiar to Mr Jalal. It's given to few men or women to see the face of God. I was brought up believing no man can look on God and live. What Mr Jalal sees is terrifying

Hats, I'm still in the marketplace with you. I find it hard to leave. Mrs Jalal has had a difficult time, and now she is distraught over her husband's state of mind. The exorcism ritual at the Amira Ma shrine is almost as terrifying as Mr Jalal's vision. The broken thread ends in a horror of screams. Her husband, she believes, is cursed, and she may have been the cause with loving him too much. How sad when she talks of the empty rooms in peoples' hearts.

I'm still wondering myself, why the Radiowalla has withdrawn into himself. Is that what the transistor has done to him? He worked so hard, saving his rupees for what he had his heart set on. A simple soul, but still one wonders what his thoughts are.

Welcome Andrea. We need all the heads we can get on this strange tale.

Welcome back Alf.

Why would Vishnu, the god, decide to show himself through Vishnu, the man, on the staircase? Maybe it proves that spirituality is discovered in the most unlikely places and people.

Scrawler, I agree. Vishnu, the god, wants to get Ahmed Jalal to stop thinking his self inflictions are a way to the path of rightness. Mr. Jalal is disappointed the staircase, where Vishnu lives, is clean. That is very disturbing. Who did clean the staircase do we know? I can not remember.

'He's going to be fine' Kavita says, as, a little past midnight, she and her lover Salim come down the stairs. In her eyes 'there seemed to glow an aura of tranquility around Vishnu.'

The reader cannot be too surprised to hear that, having just seen Vishnu in the company of the gods. In the amazing last scene of Chapter Six. It's more than a scene. It's a canticle on how to sense the presence of gods. And now it comes to Vishnu in a bevy of scents. Aroma has always had the power to restore him to life. Remember the tea at the beginning of the story. Now it must be the heavily-perfumed Kavita on the stairs that stirs Vishnu into remembering the stories his mother told him:

'When the gods descend, Vishnu knows, it is by their scents that he will recognize them. Ganesh will smell of the fruits he loves. Varuna will smell of the sea. River breezes will herald the arrival of Saraswati. Indra will bring the rain. Krishna will smell of all that's sweet, of milk and gar and tulsi. Of sandalwood and kevda flowers, of saffron, of ghee, of honey.' p126

Vishnu goes into a rapture. A heavenly train of thought leads to the sudden realization that:

'Tonight is the night that Lakshmi will descend.'

And along comes Kavita, pauses, tucks a hundred-rupee note under Vishnu's coverlet, adds her dupatta to it for a little more warmth, and departs, murmuring, Take care of yourself.

She and Vishnu always were playmates. Both have a sense of drama. Vishnu, no doubt, is already preparing that big scene for Mr Jalal. While Kavita, without luggage, without a script, is madly feeling out her role in her several worlds.

Summer reading doesn't get any better than this. I believe 100 rupees is about $2.00.

The last scene of Chapter Seven is even more complex than I originally thought. I believe that Vishnu, the man, morphs into an incarnation of the god Vishnu when he appears to Mr. Jalal in his dream to give him a message, after giving Mr. Jalal a third eye, like the god Shiva, through which to view him.

Page 145, Mr. Jalal says, “Enlightenment. I’ve come for a sign.”

Page 146, “Vishnu’s fist swung up through the air and smashed the walnut into [Mr. Jalal’s] skull.”

Page 147, “Then Mr. Jalal realized that the walnut had opened up a hole in his forehead, a hole that was like a third eye.”

This is much like the story of the god Shiva, excerpted from this website (which I had not referenced prior to this message):

Shiva Third Eye

“Besides these symbols another very important physical characteristic of Shiva is his VERTICAL EYE – the third eye. In the Mahabharata, the great Hindu epic, the legend of how Shiva got the third eye is narrated this way. One day his beautiful consort Parvati, daughter of the King of Mountains, stealthily went behind Shiva and playfully placed her hands over his eyes. Suddenly darkness engulfed the whole world and all beings trembled in great fear as the lord of the universe had closed his eyes. Suddenly a massive tongue of flame leapt from the forehead of Shiva; a third eye had appeared there and this gave light to the world. In “SRI SHIVA TATTVA” this eye is described as: “the frontal eye, the eye of fire, it is the eye of higher perception.”

Page 147, “Vishnu’s body was metamorphosing. … Limbs kept emerging and Vishnu kept expanding, until he was touching the suns above and Mr. Jalal couldn’t tell where he started and where he ended.”

Here is a picture of Vishnu from the same website:

Picture of Vishnu

Page 148, “The god Vishnu says, “In every living cell of every living thing shall you find me. Lucky are those to whom I show myself, for it is not through penance or rituals that you will see me.”

Simply, Mr. Jalal should stop his physical self punishment.

Page 149, Vishnu says, “For I have come to save and destroy the universe.”

According to this website (which I have posted prior):

Kalki

The tenth incarnation of Vishnu, Kalki: “at then end of this age, Vishnu will appear again as the bringer of destruction.”

Wow! What is Mr. Jalal going to do with this vision, from Vishnu, the god, which implores him to stop his penance, recognize this god, and bring Vishnu’s message to the people of the world?

I read the part about the Air India clock and the definition. It is one of the ones with the cute little cartoon character (they say in the book what he is called) on it. Here's a link to his picture:

Well, I'm going to try to just post an ad from their site. I hope Air India won't mind.

Air India Dude

Kleo

"Renunciation means sacrificing or giving up something that seems important at that moment in favor of something that we know ultimately has more meaning. Each time we do this, we are making a spiritual choice - a decision to go with the bigger picture. Making these spiritual decisions or selfless choices is not always as unselfish as it appears.

It's true: A spiritual journey almost inevitably begins with a decision to renounce a certain way of life. But that decision is less about changing your enviornment or letting go of people and things than it is about transforming your inner being - learning the inner meaning of letting be in order to find wise nauralness and authentic simplicty." ~ Lama Suray Das

I think this is what Vishnu is trying to get across to Mr. Jahal. Mr. Jahal is trying to change his enviornment by his flogging of himself and he is letting go of his wife, but instead he should be learning his inner being.

When you were parents and you heard your child crying in the night wouldn't you go and give up your most needed sleep to give comfort to that child? When parents respond to their children's cries, they make these choices, in order to satisfy their greater and deeper needs. This is a good example of a spiritual choice.

Looks like you and I had much the same idea on Mr. Jalal’s vision, Scrawler (prior to post 269).

I don’t blame Radiowalla one bit for withdrawing with his radio. He was glad to share when people were thankful and appreciated his kindness. However, when his generosity was replaced with a feeling of expectation by his neighbors, he was put off. I like ALF’s idea of each person being burdened with the presumption of someone else.

Must you go through each stage of Hindu life in its entirety before going to the next stage? Good question. I referred to the detailed website of the Hindu life stages that I posted earlier in the discussion and found these comments:

“Vanaprasta [3rd stage] may be termed as the beginning of a person’s real ‘adult education.’”

Seems like you can learn throughout life.

“No one is encouraged to become a ‘Sannyasi’ [4th stage] unless one has gone through one’s natural impulses through the three previous Ashramas [stages].”

Looks like, at least in the last stage, you need to have completed the three prior stages first.

Hats asked, “Why would Vishnu, the god, decide to show himself through Vishnu, the man, on the staircase?” Why not? Vishnu the god states during Mr. Jalal’s vision, “In every living cell of every living thing shall you find me.” What better way to prove this than by showing himself through a man that people currently don’t want to be around.

As Jonathan reminded us, “When the gods descend, Vishnu knows, it is by their scents that he will recognize them” Yes, “a sweet fragrance, like that of incense, but with a perfume that smelled of no flower Mr. Jalal knew, began filling the air.” This sentence is from page 147, during Mr. Jalal’s vision of the god Vishnu.

Laura, I share your wonder. We've got several days to take a good look at the exhilarating vision that Vishnu permits him to see. You've got us off to a good start with your resourceful post. I got pleasurably lost in the Indian Divinities website. How, I keep asking myself, does one go about choosing a god in the Hindu Pantheon? I came close today, when I went back to the Antiques Fair. The first thing that caught my eye was a 12-inch, bronze Ganesh, the Elephant god. He seems to be the favorite of many Hindus. But I'm holding off for the present.

Kleo, great to have you look in. Interesting that Air India and Lufthansa have formed a partnership. Whose time are we getting?

Scrawler, your posts are always such fun to read. Keep 'em coming.

Why a walnut, particularly? To make the third eye? Is this some sort of symbolism I am missing? Is he lying in walnuts?

I am wondering why now Vishnu has become a god, if he has? I am wondering why since he (did he) not particularly seek after the spiritual life?

I did see Dil, Kleo, which is the name of the movie, in the credits and on the CD, just Dil, and I did not particularly see any anomaly in the age of Aamir Kahn but I did not like the movie, it's another Grease and he looked as fit for the part of a 21 year old as John Travolta did. It's sure no Lagaan, that's for sure.

Speaking of Lagaan, which was nominated for an Oscar for Best Foreign Language Film, if you'd like to hear something quite spectacular, go here: http://www.lagaan.com and then hit enter, I nearly had a heart attack ahhaaha

(Gives a bit of atmosphere here to the discussion). If you get a chance hit the top bar about downloads and you can (if you have a fast ISP) see the video or hear some of the songs in audio and see if you can hear chale chalo which is a great song, sort of means come along and help us all or something like that. Love it and you can see the videos of some of the dances, too. Sort of gives a nice flavor, or atmosphere, maybe.

I am confused over the walnuts and why Vishnu has morphed into a god, too. If he has. I like Laura's why not? Does this mean he's at the apex of his development then as a man? The final step? But he has not been particularly....spiritual in this life, has he? I need to read that page again, I think. What, my question is, or one of them, does this mean for Vishnu the MAN?

3. Sannyasa Ashrama: This is known as ascetic or hermit stage of life. In this stage one gradually withdraws from active life and begins devoting more time to study of scriptures, contemplation and meditation.

4. Sannyasa Ashrama: the final stage of life in which an individual mentally renounces all wordly ties, spends all of his or her time in meditation and contemplation and ponders over the mysteries of life. In ancient times one would part company with one's family and become a mendicant.

So I'm wondering how Vishnu the Man is at either this 3rd or 4th stage and where in the stages a god takes over and what this means? I can see the parallel to the god Vishnu revealing himself in the 11th Chapter of the Bhagavad Gita, what I can't understand is why now, why here, why Vishnu the Man, as the vehicle just because Jalal is a Seeker, what does this mean for Vishnu the Man, why walnuts and is this all in Jalal's mind? Or Vishnu's for that matter, he's not eating.

Ginny, those are very good questions you ask. Isn't this proving difficult. To decide what's real, and what's just a state of mind?

I think one thing we can be certain of is that Mr Jalal is ready to make a god of Vishnu. In fact, I'm convinced that it is Mr Jalal's curious state of mind that should have us asking questions about him. Is he worthy of the truth? For him it's all just an experiment about acquiring truth. Make that faith. He wants to find out what faith is all about. He's just playing the field, intellectually and spiritually. As a Muslim at that! Dabbling in infidelity. What is this journey upon which he has embarked? And what he divulges of himself, makes it dubious why Vishnu would treat him to such a fantastic vision.

Since we have several days to spend on Chapter Seven, why not approach that last scene with a thorough knowledge and apprciation of the drama leading up to it. Perhaps we will have a better idea of why Vishnu smashes the walnut on Mr Jalal's forehead. It comes from the bowl of walnuts, between Mr J and V, where the sit on the step above the landing. With Mr Jalal in his pajamas.

There is just too much humor in this chapter. Watch for it. Much in the way of smoke and mirrors. And did Ahmed marry Arifa for all the wrong reasons?

I get movies from the Indian store in Hindu and the titles are printed in the guides and on the boxes and at imdb in English, and they do vary. It's the same movie, Ginny, whichever title you have, and, it seems there is more than one. He looked too old for the role for me. Yes, it is like Grease, about as entertaining, too, unfortunately.

Why is Mr. Jalal so desperate for a god that he creates one? Don't Hindus have enough that even a monotheist could just pick one of theirs instead of instead of finding a new one? Or is he finding Vishnu, the Indian god, not the man dying in the stairwell?

Kleo

Why are some of us trying to put Mr. Jalal's hallucinatory visions on the dying Vishnu? On Page 138 Jalal has the kind of intellectual argument with himself about the dimensions of faith that one might expect the god Vishnu to have.

In truth, what sort of thoughts does the dying man have? Very human thoughts about females, as far as I can see, including the perfumed promise of the coming of Vishnu's bride, Lakshmi, the goddess of wealth and beauty.

Vishnu didn't seem to have many, if any, regrets about not living up to the promise of his name, a promise his mother used to brainwash him when he was very young. What do you make of the story of Jeev? As far as I can tell, this is Vishnu's vision of the future. What do you think?

Did you find the description of Vishnu's sheet, with its orange floral pattern and smell of excretion mixed with the astringent odor of phenol, amusing? I did.

What about those mirrors the kids used to fool Jalal?

Mal

I think parts of the story are very amusing. I do not think the word "brainwashing" describes a mother's good thoughts for her son's future.

Excuse me, HATS. You're the last person in the world I'd ever offend. But raising a child to think he's a god doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

Mal

Mal perhaps you are right. Maybe in India this way of thinking is not peculiar. I do see your point.

Oh, no way is this confined to India. Americans buy their children sports cars, designer jeans, $740 sneakers, teach them to be snots. I saw an episode of Oprah years ago about the trend of mothers MARRYING their 5-year-old sons in elaborate ceremonies.

I have a cousin who was a teacher, until a high school boy slapped her in the face, then tried to slap her with his other hand, she held her arm up to stop the blow, he struck her so hard that he sprained his wrist. ONE GUESS who had to leave the school because of this incident.

Americans buy their children lawyers to demand that EVERYONE else consider them gods.

Hats, Mal, it is possible she thought this would elevate him, though, or knew his father well enough that she doubted the gene pool or something. I don't yet know enough about her to know if her intentions were as idiotic as Americans who buy their children out of their wrongs.

Kleo

I think we have gone beyond the reason why Vishnu is named after a god. I feel Vishnu's mother was full of good intentions. She wanted her son to live up to the meanings behind the god, Vishnu's, name. Vishnu's mother wanted him to know he would have some worth to society. "What would the world be without you?" she says.

From the impression I get about the father, he wasn't the best father in the world. He is described as a man "drinking bhang since morning...They are all quite intoxicated..." There is no mention so far of anything he did good for Vishnu or Vishnu's mother.

"A huge mouth opened up and snapped at the air near Mr. Jahal's head. Giant fangs snaked out to blow fire at his face, and Mr. Jahal felt the the hairs in both his eyebrows become crisp.

Mr. Jalal saw demons take shape and break free from Vishnu's boundary. The demons bared their teeth at Mr. Jalal before being obscured by the vapors issuing from their nostrils.

The heads had multiplied, and were now craning their long necks to surround Mr. Jalal and stare at him from all directions. A steady stream of gods and ghosts and demons were passing from mouth to open mouth, undaunted by the skulls and mangled bodies dangling between the teeth. The air was so heavy with heat that Mr. Jalal felt the inside of his chest was on fire." (p. 148)

When I first read this passage about Jalal's vision, it reminded me of the image of hell that the Catholic priests described especially on Good Friday.

Naraka: "Most of the Hindu traditions believe in the existence of Naraka (which may be equated with the concept of Hell.) Lord Yama rules the Naraka with a band of emissaries called the Yama duta, who bring the soul of dead persons to the Nakaka, where they suffer pains and punishment for the sins committed on earth. Certain Hindu texts contain vivid descriptins of such sufferings. Chitragupta functions as the karmic accountant of all the actions of the human beings on earth, based on which dead persons are assigned the privilege of living in Swarga or consigned to Naraka to undergo pain and suffering to atone for their sins on the earth."

Swarga: "The concept of Swarga (heaven) is one of the concepts of Hindu mythology. Hinduism deems Swarga a temporary place to enjoy the fruits of ones action on earth, while Moksha is the supreme salvation a soul can aspire to. Swarga is inhabitated by the Devas (Gods)."

So as I understand it Vishnu the god through the man of the same name was trying to show Mr. Jahal a vision of hell in order for him to change his ways. Isn't that the reason why most priests and ministers preach to us about hell and heaven? Through this vision Vishnu hopes to get Mr. Jahal, who is after all Muslin, to change his view of life in order for him to enter the Swarga. And if he does not change he warns through his vision that he will than suffer and be punished for his actions on earth in Naraka.

It was interesting to note that Swarga is only a "temporary" place and I can't help wonder if "Naraka" is also temporary. Perhaps when a soul is punished enough for his actions on earth it is than returned and reincarnation begins or are only the sould residing in Swarga reincarnated?

I love all the posts here. I thought Malryn had an excellent question or if I understood it correctly, who says this is what's happening?

I am wondering whose eyes we are seeing this concluding event of Chapter 7 through: Vishnu's, Mr. Jalal's or maybe that Omniscient Narrator who has been talking to us since the beginning? It would make a big difference.

Ginny asked, “Why a walnut?” I had the same question, but I really didn’t think there was any significance. Ginny’s question made me wonder a little harder, so I did an internet search “walnut, Hindu mythology.” I think it does have significance; a connection between a walnut-like fruit of a tree produced by Shiva’s tears! Here is a link to the website I found and an excerpt from it (my italics for emphasis):

Rudraksha Beads

Rudraksha Beads - Hinduism's 'Miracle Bead'

Rudrakshas have been worn by Hindu Sadhus (holymen) and Gurus since the last 5000 years. Hindus believe that rudraksha beads will bless the wearer with with health, wealth, intelligence, luck, divinity, power, prosperity, happiness, spirituality and anything else you desire in life. It has the power and ability to bless the wearer/worshipper with almost everything he/she desires. It is truly a 'Miracle Bead'for most Hindus.

The English name for Rudraksha tree is `utrasum bead tree.' The trees are of medium height and the fruit on them is like a walnut, having a cover, with a Rudraksha inside. These tress are generally found in India, Nepal, Indonesia and some other countries of North Asia.

Story Behind Rudraksha

Rudraksha means `Tears of Lord Shiva' in Hindi. According to Hindu mythology, some time ago a Demon named Tripura Sur became very powerful and invincible. Lord Brahma, Vishnu and other Deities approached Lord Shiva and requested him to help them to conquer this Devil and destroy him.

Lord Shiva decided to use one of his most special fire weapon called `Aaghor' that had the energy to destroy everything. When Lord Shiva was using this forceful weapon to destroy the Demon, he could not open his eyes, and when he did, his eyes were watering, and a few drops fell on the earth.

Wherever Lord Shiva's tears fell, trees grew, and bore the fruit of Rudraksha.

Ah ha! I couldn't figure out how the demons coming from the god Vishnu in Mr. Jalal's vision fit in. Thanks, Scrawler. It makes perfect sense that Vishnu was giving Mr. Jalal a view of hell.

Because he's angry with Mr. Jalal. Stop to remember that Vishnu was in heaven himself. Kavita had done that with her fragrance. She passes, and Vishnus turns her into Lakshmi, his consort, in the godly scheme of things. Even after she's gone, Kavita leaves Vishnu dreaming:

'Oh, the scents she has left behind, the leaves and fruits and flowers. The beauty she has carried to earth, the pleasure it has brought.' p132

And who walks in to spoil this divine reverie for Vishnu? What a dramatic interruption in the words, and it's Vishnu asking himself:

'But wait. Who is this who emerges from the Jalal's door? Is this another god, who dares match your step with his own?' p133

It is Mr. Jalal. With his all to human and heavy foot. And just like that Vishnu's vision fades;

'The flowers so red and vivid seconds ago succumb, under his tread. Petals wither where they lie, their scent fades into the ground. Stamens are crushed under his feet, their pollen blows all around.'

Here comes Mr. Jalal, in his pyjamas, grasping the banister. Why? Because it's dark. There is no light. The tenants can't agree on how to share the bill for the power!

I think Mal said it. There's a lot of farce in this story. The fact that Mr. Jalal's vision comes straight out Chapter XI of the Bhagavad-Gita, makes me wonder why Suri is running for his life, like S. Rushie had to after coming out with his Satanic Verses.

Wanting to know more, I looked around and found the Gita, or at least Mahatma Gandhi's commentary on it. It seems to have come out of a sort of tabletalk the Mahatma did every morning for his disciples in his ashram. Here is Gandhi's intoduction to Chapter XI:

'This is regarded as an important chapter. The Gita is a poem with a profound meaning, and the eleventh chapter is the most poetic of all. If we wish to learn true bhakti (devotion, worship, love), we should know this chapter by heart. If we do so, we shall feel, when reciting it, that we are bathing in a sea of bhakti.'

I don't think Mr. Jalal is getting the right vision. Perhaps Vishnu was trying to spoil it for him. I thought the 'walnut' was just the old mystic chestnut, that one has to break the shell to get at the kernel. But Vishnu certainly bopped Mr Jalal with it.

Here's a link to a picture of a Hindu rosary, or set of Rudraksha beads:

Rudraksha Beads

The tree is Elaeocarpus Ganitrus. Thanks for the post on these beads and the link.

Thanks for clearing that up, Jonathan.

Kle

Kleo and LauraD thank you for the information and photo of the link. I am going to take time to reread the posts. The Hinduism is not easy for my understanding.

Ginny I am glad you asked about walnuts. I wanted to know about those walnuts too.

The vision of the demons or devils to Mr. Jalal seem angry that he is not Hindu rather than Muslim. Since Mr. Jalal is on this continuous religious search, is he too mentally involved with Vishnu's death? Is Mr. Jalal now thinking that Hinduism will become the ultimate path to peace, not Muslim?

I think Scrawler mentioned Hell and Brimstone. This is like a Hell and Brimstone vision. It's a vision or dream that will shake Mr. Jalal up for a time, I think.

Jonathan and Scrawler you are helping me quite a bit. Thank you.

Kleo, I could find no Indian food at all in our local grocery store. Our store is big and well stocked with a variety of foods of other ethnic origins. I even discovered a section of pantry goods/shelf items for Middle Eastern food today. However, I am not surprised by the lack of Indian food because no Indians live around here. Ironically, I saw an Indian couple in the grocery store this morning. I am sure they are here on vacation (I live in a resort town).

Before Jahal's vision, the author relates the story of the a yogi-spirit named Jeev: " Many, many centuries ago, during the days that the Pandavas and Kauravas were living the Mahabharata, Jeev had just risen from being an insect. Sometimes he would be born a bird, and a few times even a small animal.

It was during one of his lifetimes as a bird that Jeev found himself being carried to the Pandavas' house. They reached the hut, and Arjun called out, "Look, Mother, come and see what I have found."

His mother answered from inside, "Whatever it is, you must share with your brothers. Being a Rajput, Arjun was bound by his mother's words, words that once spoken could not be retracted.

At first, Jeev tried to live with this arrangement. But he was not happy. Eventually, Jeev could not hide his feelings. He started becoming ill-tempered the four days he was not with Arjun.

The day came when Arjun put Jeev in his cage and started out for the forest. They reached a clearing, and Arjun opened the door of the cage. Jeev hopped onto the finger Arjun offered, and felt himself buoyed through the air.

"Each creature has its own karma to follow, little sparrow," Arjun said, and kissed him lightly on the side of his head. "Today, it is time for you to find yours."(pp. 141-144)

I'm a little confused as to why the author included this story in the novel. I understand that each creature has its own karma to follow, but what has this got to do with the dying Vishnu. Is he remembering his mother and her stories? And what significance does this have?

This portion of the story becomes even stranger when you realize that Mr. Jahal has eased himself under the sheet and he is touching Vishnu. What does it all mean?

Is Kleo not feeling well???

I'm feeling better than well. I broke my toe a while ago and have just been able to start walking a few days ago--I'm trying to get the million things done I didn't get done during all that time. Thanks for asking, Hats.

Kleo

Hi Kleo

Sorry to hear about your toe. Take care. That's rough.

Scrawler, I'm as baffled as you are. I wish I could explain it for you. I should get so lucky a second time. I burst out laughing when I read Kleo's post,

'Thanks for clearing that up, Jonathan.'

But it doesn't stay cleared up. No sooner does one feel that one is beginning to understand this whole allegory, then another complicating matter is thrown at one. It makes one feel more sympathetic towards Mr Jalal, who has been searching for so many years. He's not only looking for personal spiritual gratification, but would also like to do something for humanity, to help Hindu and Muslim live at peace with one another. His hero is the free-thinking Muslim, the 16c Mogul Emperor of India, Akbar.

Pity poor Vishnu. What a state he is in. Dying, with a head full of stories told him by his mother. The story of the 'yogi-spirit named Jeev,' 'born nine hundred and ninety thousand times' is one more. What does it mean? In another version Arjun shares a newly-won wife with his four brothers, having received the same admonition from his mother. Share. Perhaps humanity was meant to share something, instead of that being the exclusive posession of only one. We've all seen how reluctant we are to share the Truth, or acknowledge that others also have some. I'm only speculating.

How Mr Jalal wishes to experience faith! Any faith, it seems, after his years of fruitless thinking and searching. Trying to be rational. And the vision he now sees - he's not convinced it's not a dream.

Isn't there something sad about the Jalal marriage? At the market, when Ahmed smiled at her. Whatever does he see in me, Arifa asks herself. I'm so plain. And now we learn from Ahmed himself, that he did see the plainness, but he was certain that he could make a sophisticated wife out of her. What an irony. I'll take the level-headed Arifa any day. What will ever become of Ahmed?

I find myself thinking the strangest things reading this book. Like comparing the relative merits of prayerful, worshipful, meditative positions. The Christian has his greatest rapport with God when he is on his knees. The Muslim kneeling on his prayer mat touches his forehead to the ground. And then there is the beautiful Lotus position of the yogi. We're all seeking the same thing aren't we? Did you all know, that the Hindu believes that taking a deep breath and reaching for the sky, reduces inhibitions? And so much of the religious life is a matter of losing ones inhibitions.

What do you say to that? Doesn't that make it seem easy? I wonder too about that dupatta, Lakshmi's dupatta, that ends up covering Mr Jalal's head. Perhaps it serving as a prayer shawl. That's another way to approach ones maker.

I pity Vishnu because he has been lying on the staircase for a very long time. It seems like everybody is going on with their lives, accept Mr. Jalal, and forgetting about this very sick, dying man. Why not call the ambulance people again? Maybe a call to that society of good, caring people.

It's so easy, I think, to become lost in the details of our personal lives forgetting what's happening in the lives of other people. No matter how big another person's problem is and how tiny our problem is, our problems, our desires become the main focus. Really, Vishnu is not getting the help he needs. If help were gotten in time, maybe his death would not happen.

At this point, I think Mr. Jalal's search for the right religious path has become a little bit selfish. Radiowalla is selfish too. He has taken the entertainment from the other people and keeping it all for himself. Even the guy who elopes steals the Rupees from under Vishnu's head. Everybody is taking and none of these people are giving.

A voice in my head is asking what exactly is spirituality? Is it rituals? Is it reading the Koran and other books? Or is spirituality our actions? How do we react to the needs of our fellowman? These people have compartamentalize themselves just like their human selves have become an apartment block. Vishnu is in need. Also, all of his neighbors are in need too.

I remember something about the bananas and one of the Gangas. I can't remember it. I need to find it.

I had to read Alf's post again. I disagree with Alf. I don't think these people are feeding off of one another. I think they are feeding off themselves. That's not a parasite. What is it? I don't know.

Ginny brought up isolation first, I think. I didn't quite understand what she was getting at. Now I am trying to remember because it makes sense to me.

Mal printed this quotation much earlier. I didn't know where it should go in my head along with the plot of the book. Now I see it as a perfect fit because it speaks of caring about your fellowman.

I honor the place in you
in which the entire Universe dwells,

I honor the place in you
which is of Love, of Truth, of Light and of Peace,

When you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
we are One.

-Namaste above by Spiritual Cinema

I would love to know Truade's thoughts about this book. Traude was here in the beginning.

This is part of Ginny's post. Her whole post on Mr. Jalal and isolation is good, I think.

"Malryn and Hats, I think for me the “Isolation” is the “Isolation” one can feel in a crowd. You can be physically in the middle of a mob but emotionally and spritiulally alone."

How true. All of these people are in a crowd and isolated, not reaching out to anyone else.

Mrs. Jalal buys very expensive bananas. She is sorry to have bought the bananas. Her son, Salim, is always out of the house, Ahmed is fasting most of the time. She thought of giving the bananas to Short Ganga. Mrs. Jalal decides the bananas are too expensive to be given to Short Ganga. So, Mrs. Jalal, not liking bananas, sits alone and chokes down the overripe fruit.

"The ripeness made her gag, but stoically, she chewed on the mushy flesh."

Again, no sharing, no giving, just a one on one experience. I am anxious to see how all of these people will end up. I bet Kleo can see a lot of high math in the lives of these people.

Jonathan, no, not my kicking toe, just my little toe. Such a thing to break. Moving, things all over the place.

Hats, this is a book written by a man who looks at little pieces of the whole to try to find solutions, partial differential equations. Books are more often ordinary differential equations, where there is one major variable and its derivatives with respect only to that variable.

Life is more complex, though, and I wonder, in a country like India, with such a long and complex and convoluted history, if one must try to answer questions such as what is life, what does it all mean, by looking at many variables and trying to find the whole solution through all those different variables (Hindus and Muslims and Christians and Jews, men and women, rich and poor, and landing and apartment and street, and marriages and pining for prostitutes). It's interesting because, many different problems (different countries with different people and different variables) might wind up with the same solutions. This book is written like the math the author works with.

Kleo

We must be twins, Kleo, I broke my second toe (the one next to the big toe) right before the Convention in Philadelphia June 20, it's still swollen larger than the big toe, doggone the time, sorry for the pain, I know that hurts.

Great discussion here. Laura you are a genius! WALNUTS indeed, well done, who KNEW? I am struggling offline determined to send Laura a photo of Cranmer's cross in the stones of the street, just determined, fighting with the lightning destroyed PC, trying to transfer it out, determined to send her this photo if it kills me!!

Hats, I love the way you get right to the heart of any issue, boring in, lots on those bananas, I have no idea what they signify, I do know some people only eat them when they're black, uggg, and why is the poor woman forcing herself TO eat them? I agree with Jonathan, this is very complex.

Like Scrawler I am confused over why that story of Jeev is in there because it does not mean anything to me particularly. I am still hung up on Malryn's whose vision is this (or what I perceived her to be asking) and now Hats may be putting the focus on it:

A voice in my head is asking what exactly is spirituality? Is it rituals? Is it reading the Koran and other books? Or is spirituality our actions? How do we react to the needs of our fellowman?

If somebody asked each of us what was going on here at the last of chapter 7 what would you say? Mr. Jalal wants to see this, needs to experience this, so he is? Vishnu is ascending? Vishnu is turned into a god? What?

I'm going to read it again. Not that that will help. hahahaa

Oh, good grief, I broke mine much later than that, and you've now dashed all hopes for fast recovery, Ginny. Seriously, what an annoying inconvenience. I broke my foot a few years ago and it healed much faster. It's just a toe!!!!! After a good dozen or so broken toes in a lifetime, I have, however, finally found the best tool for buddy-taping the little suckers: cheap 1/2" masking tape, much easier than any type of first aid tape, or even coban, easier to remove and replace, too.

Ginny, I also broke mine just before starting a new adventure, which I had to give up until it heals. Sorry to hear you had to do the Convention with a broken toe.

Kleo

Yes it nearly killed me actually, on my feet all day long, I do think that's what made it so bad. I would not take MY experience as normal, the last time I broke one on that same foot (horse stood on it) it healed much more quickly. I am beginning to wonder if I'm diabetic or something, but anyway, don't go by me!

It's much better!!

I was watching Born Into Brothels directed by photographer Zana Briski and Ross Kauffman about children of prostitutes in Kalcutta's Red Light District. It's a pretty typical film of its documentary genre, one man or woman, or two, out to save the world by making life better for one child against impossible odds.

It reminded me of something I keep forgetting to ask about Vishnu as I get swept up into the chaos of India's gods and Mr. Jamal's faith and the neighbor wives' fights over the kitchen and all the wallas. I'm not sure the story is about Vishnu and whether he will ever become a god as his mother wanted. I'm not even sure that's what his mother wanted. The problem is that the poor of the world, the really poor, are seldom seen as human or treated as humans by those who have so much more.

It reminds me of why Hats may have been stuck on the bananas as I was: not giving them away to someone who is hungry because they are expensive seems to be denying the basic humanity of a poor person. I cannot imagine much worse than always having emptiness in your stomach from not having enough to eat while knowing that you had no resources to produce more money for more food, except possibly knowing your children faced the same fate. To force yourself to gag on an overripe banana (I only eat mine green because I'm so repulsed by overripe bananas) to keep the food from the mouth of a poorer person seems an unthinkable way to treat another human being.

I don't know if Vishnu will ever become a god. I don't think it matters, while he struggles to be treated as a human being in life, when given so little to struggle with. The most touching moment in the book is when he imagines, briefly, as he sits on the beach, or is driving down there, living a normal life with Padmini, not a house or a garden, but a room, a single room, and a shared toilet, and a chance to be part of a family, HIS family.

Kleo

"The problem is that the poor of the world, the really poor, are seldom seen as human or treated as humans by those who have so much more."

This past week I learned that I have been approved for Medical Assistance, or Medicaid. I was pleased about this at first because the cost of the supplemental insurance I've been carrying is more than I can afford. Then I found out that not one of the doctors I have to go to will accept Medicaid. This is the USA, not a third world country like India.

FACT: India is a major grower and exporter of walnuts.

FACT: Thousands of people die, uncared for, on the streets of India from starvation, AIDS and other diseases. Surely, there are some luckier ones like Vishnu, who die on landings of apartment buildings.

HOLY COW! Who cleans up after the cows go by?

Mal

Mal, those are very interesting facts. Thank you.

I remember learning a little bit about the caste system in India. In our modern time is there still a caste system in, maybe, the rural villages of India? Would Vishnu represent the Untouchable one? If so, is there a caste system alive and well in the whole apartment building?

Hat's , I believe the caste system in India is dying. Constitutionally the once-Untouchables have been guaranteed rights that enable them to participate in the political life of the country. I seem to remember something about other disadvantaged groups who are benefitting from affirmative action policies.

I'm sure there are people who would disagree, and maintain that the caste system is alive and well, but only gone underground. Social stratification is inevitable in every society. But just imagine, the man of the Brahman class outraged when an Untouchable happens to step on the former's shadow. Village life, for all I know, may still have one water well for the high caste and another well for the low.

I can't remember when I've allowed myself to get so involved with others as I have with the characters in this book. Of course I hadn't read any fiction for forty years before getting involved in book discussions here in SN.

Back to the bananas. It wouldn't occur to Mrs Jalal to offer Vishnu a banana. Not when he is already choking on something else he has eaten. I get the impression that she bought them for her darling son Salim. But he has disappeared. Mr Jalal, of course, isn't eating. Short Ganga resents accepting them, after Mrs Jalal had ungraciously implied that Vishnu might only be faking his illness, like that other time. Wasn't there another option for Mrs J exercising a bit of charity with the bananas. Another poor, begging women on the street. Why not the radio man? Or that other guy, who is only known as The Man Who Sleeps On The First Landing? Where Vishnu started out, when he took up residence in the building.

So Mrs Jalal is left to choke on the overripe bananas herself.

I like the suggestion that Vishnu is one of the luckier one of all those poor who come to Bombay to improve themselves. I can't feel sorry for him. I have to consider Mr Jalal's curious experience. Curious is hardly the word for it. The last part of the vision, the Question and Answer thing between Man and God is every bit as impressive as Job's encounter with God in the Old Testament.

'Who are You?'

'Where do You come from?'

'What do you want from me.'

The answers Mr Jalal gets are equally ominous and portentous, as we shall see in the following chapters.

How dismaying and demoralizing it must seem to those who work so hard at finding God, to read:

'Lucky are those to whom I show myself for it is not through penance or rituals that you will see me.'

That could be faith-destroying.

"In Tibet it is said that only intrepid snow lions can go into the icy wilderness forest alone. Everyone else needs community. Here's why:

Spiritual friendships help us maintain spiritual priorities.

Turning toward the spirit and living a more spiritual life requires diligence, mindfulness, and care in everything we do. With every moment, every breath, every word, and every act, we have choices to make, these choices determine our quality of life and our karmic destiny. Spiritual friends remind us of what's important. They help us increase in virtue and loving and keep us on track.

My personal feeling is that whenever I connect and truly commune with others, I connect and commune with that which is greater than any of us. This is simply spiritual logic." ~ Lama Surya Das

This is just a guess on my part, but could the author have included the story about Jeev because he was trying to show us the meaning of spiritual friendship? Or to my way of thinking the act of sharing an experience. "Spiritual friends remind us of what's important." Just as sharing the bird with his brothers reminded Arjun of what his mother was trying to tell was important to him. The very act of "sharing" is important to sustain an individual on the right path.

I can also see this as spiritual sharing. Mrs. Jahal feels she is alone, but she doesn't share the bananas with anyone. Wouldn't she have felt better if she had shared with someone?

The more I think about it this whole novel is about sharing what one has and that way those who do so can continue on their journey to find spirituality. None of the characters except for Vishnu are willing to share anything out of the kindness of their hearts. It is only the sense of duty that makes them feel kind towards Vishnu. While Vishnu shares with the other characters freely and thus he continues on with his journey.

Jonathan thank you for answering my question.

The story of Jeev did confuse me. Because Jeev wanted to love only Arjun. This is why Arjun had to let Jeev go. Jeev did not want to interact with other members of the family. Arjun had no choice but to let Jeev fly away. His love became flawed. Jeev began to attack the brothers and sisters. Jeev did not want to share his love with others.

I feel Arjun has a good heart. He wants to share Jeev with his family. Jeev won't allow himself to be shared. Giving, I suppose, involves two. When falling in love, two people are involved. It is impossible to hold on to it and share with one. Love must multiply. Jeev did not allow love to scatter like thrown seed throughout the family.

... is alive and well for the millions and millions of Dalits (current preferred term for those outside of the Brahman castes) in India.

Laws in the United States did not change much for over a hundred years for freed slaves and their descendants in the Deep South (and other places in the USA). India has a few thousand more years of history to change and hundreds of millions of more people to change it in. Cultural change can't be legislated, most of all it takes time. Dalits are still the ones cleaning sewers the old fashioned-way, by sending themselves or their children down in them, they're still denied places in schools, hospitals, civil employment.

Who cleans up after the cows? Cow patties are dang valuable fuel in India. Whoever wants to cook dinner is my guess, at least for rural areas. I assume Dalits clean up after the cows in the cities. The thought had not occurred to me, Hats.

Kleo

Kleo thank you for the very interesting information. Change does not come quickly.

Dalits

This is part of the article.

"Although based on religious principles practiced for some 1,500 years, the system persists today for economic as much as religious reasons.

Because they are considered impure from birth, Untouchables perform jobs that are traditionally considered "unclean" or exceedingly menial, and for very little pay. One million Dalits work as manual scavengers, cleaning latrines and sewers by hand and clearing away dead animals. Millions more are agricultural workers trapped in an inescapable cycle of extreme poverty, illiteracy, and oppression."

Hats, I think you answered it better than I did. The possible meaning of the Jeev story.

And Scrawler, too, has an interesting interpretation. It certainly is about sharing. And sharing, or the lack of it, does play a part in the lives of these people. But what has Vishnu ever shared? The man on the landing. Hasn't he even been known to cheat the Asranis, the Pathaks, and the Jalals? But they have allowed him to get away with it for many years. They all, in their own way, seem to care about and are concerned about him. As long as it doesn't cost money. He lives on crumbs, but they have allowed him to have a home on the landing. He's shown a lot of cleverness in running errands for everyone. He seems to have something going with the cigarettewalla, perhaps it's a comission thing, for bringing in the business.

Here's a question. Is the caste system, or was the system, practised by both Hindu and Muslim? I believe the Muslims made many converts among the lower castes, offerting them an opportunity of equality. As must have, the Christian missionaries. And the upper castes refused to serve the British in any capacity, during the Empire days.

Has anyone counted the landings in this building, and their occupants? Vishnu is the star among those who live on the landings. But what about these others?

Giving visions, if he likes you.

Blessed Mr. Jalal,

'...and then he was overcome with a sense of oneness, all touch and feeling subsiding, all thought and emotion fading, the intensity of the vision engulfing him in all its splendor, and once fully encapsulated, an unexpected peace descending, a quiet, a solitude, a meditative calm, and then, finally, sleep, pure and silent, unusually deep...' (end of Chapter Seven)

The next thing we hear about him is when Short Ganga, doing her milk run in the morning, finds him snoring!

Shall we go on to the next group of chapters? From here on it's much more down to earth.

I don't know, Jonathan. I know very little about Muslims in India, other than most of them participate in the dowry culture of India. When one of my cousins got married (Afghan, therefore a brideprice culture, not dowry) the groom's family asked our family to limit guests to 350, or pay for the extra guests. Her father was not pleased with this, and said, with contempt, "What do they think we are, Indians?"

Caste societies are, however, strictly against the teachings of Islam. On the other hand, there ain't a soul in the world who doesn't know that Saudi Arab royals, supposed Muslims, are treated a whole lot different than poor Arabs.

It says in Wikipedia that there is a caste system of two castes among Indian Muslims. However, the Wikipedia article is wrong in a number of things about the Indian caste system in general. According to the paragraph I read the upper caste are considered to be the foreign born and the lower caste the converts from Hinduism. This is pretty standard fair in religions, that the converts and the newer are lesser somehow, and Muslim Arabs can see themselves as the owners of the home of Islam. However, this attitude is strictly forbidden by the religion.

Muslims, in general, are quite a part of the culture they live in.

Kleo

Does anyone know anything about the ritual of tying a knot in thread and seeing if it breaks? Mrs. Jalal, with her sister, performs this ritual on pages 124-5.

And speaking of the caste system, on the first page of Chapter Eight, page 150, I was intrigued by Short Ganga’s statement that “she wished he [Man Who Slept on the Lowest Step] was improper with her in some other, more tangible way, so she could approach the cigarettewalla about giving him a beating.” There is a hierarchy for everything!

No doubt the study of the caste system would take much time and effort. Do you think it is missing in the novel? There are rich and poor, but what else distinguishes the characters one from the other, socially?

Kleo, could you explain further the implications of the displeasure of the bride's father. Indian weddings, I've heard, can be lavish affairs, always bigger and better sort of thing.

Laura, that was such a harrowing experience for Mrs Jalal at the shrine, with the knot tying. Poor woman. Her husband is giving her such worries. And that makes Mrs Pathak's comment to the awakended Mr Jalal such an ironic understatement, after Mr Pathak has said to the sleepy, dazed Mr Jalal:

'Come, Mr Jalal, you've had a difficult night. Perhaps you should go upstairs.'

'Yes,' Mrs Pathak added, 'Mrs Jalal must be worrying.'

What a momentous night it has been on Vishnu's Landing.

Mr Jalal has looked into Heaven and Hell. Vishnu, too, has had a vision, when Kavita passed, leaving him in a cloud of glory. Such exhilaration, which the reader has shared, cannot be sustained realistically, so the author brings us down to earth with the lowlier ambitions of men who are well satisfied to catch sight of a girl's legs.

It's morning, and with Short Ganga's arrival with her milk bottles, we go from the sublime to the ridiculous, from "a steady stream of gods and ghosts and demons," to saris worn in the Maharashtrian style to prevent men from peeking.

Climbing the stairs is onerous and perilous for Short Ganga. Not only are the eight bottles of milk heavy, there is also the nuisance of the lecher on the first landing, and the the threat of the deranged man on the the third. And now the puzzle of TWO men on the middle landing, one incognito under coverlet and dupatta.

And we get to hear about Mr Taneja, who lives on the third floor, about whom we hear that he is living a tragedy after losing his wife many years ago.

All in all, the book has changed back into a light summer read, after the spiritual maelstrom that Mr Jalal was sucking us into. Thank heavens.

Laura, I think the point of the knot was to leave the thread at the shrine. If the knot broke, the thread would be blown away. The ritual, it seemed to me, was leaving the thread, not tying the knot, but leaving the thread required that it be knotted to stay.

However, knots do have significance in some cultures. Still, how could she get the thread to stay without knotting it?

John, the displeasure was that the groom's family (Afghans) could not pay for a proper wedding.

Indian and Afghan weddings are huge and lavish affairs involving hundreds and hundreds of guests, tons of food, dancing for hours, video taping, photographs. I put on one, once, a small one, in three weeks. A formal wedding for 300, immediate families only from both sides, plus the groom's family was from out of town and very small.

Afghan culture requires that the groom pay a bride price to the bride's family, buy her trousseau, and pay for the entire wedding. In general the groom's family must, in America and probably in Afghanistan, save up their entire lives or take out huge loans. I suspect that in India the bride's family must pay for the wedding, and the bride's family must provide a dowry for the couple getting married. The displeasure was simple, the groom's family was not prepared to properly marry a young woman from a large family, which would require being able to pay for a wedding that included all of her family members (probably 350~). The groom's family asked the bride's family to limit how many guests they invited or to contribute money towards the wedding. It's fairly unheard of either way for a traditional Afghan family. Apparently it is the norm in Indian Muslim weddings to make the bride's family pay for the wedding, hence the displeasure at being treated as an Indian rather than an Afghan.

Afghan weddings are much like the Indian wedding depicted in the movie Monsoon Wedding, except the bride appears in both a traditional green wedding gown for the Islamic ceremony, then an American white wedding gown (yes, the groom's family pays for both). One is described in The Kite Runner.

Kleo

The Sacred Thread

"Mangoes. So FULL, so sweet, so scented, the oranges and yellows of sunlight. So this is the food gods get offered, Vishnu thinks. Ah, mangoes."

Mangoes

I could not understand why Manil Suri spent so much time describing the love scene between Padmini and Vishnu and the presence of the mango. Now I think the love scene is not where I should focus my mind. I feel the mango, the rich fruit, is where I should focus my attention. The mango is a symbol of the fullness of life, all the beauty of life. The mango is what makes a person from India forget time and think only of what is lovely lasts forever. Therefore, the fruit is worthy to be offered as an offering.

Does the mango symbolize the sweet times in Vishnu's life? Does the mango symbolize a time of innocence, his rite of passage into manhood?

I feel all the foods have great meaning in India. Is that right?

"As we begin to be mindful, living in the "now" and directing our attention to the smallest fraction of the present instant, something extraordinary takes place. We begin to relinquish our fascination with both the past and the future. We stop living in fantasies, fears, and anticipation of the future, and we learn to let go of time-consuming preoccupations with what was or what might have been. As we learn to let go, we see that our energy is returned to us. All that wonderful energy that was being expended and leaked out in fantasy, bitterness, and regret is, once again ours! We are returned to our natural state of pure nowness." "Awaken the Buddha Within" ~ Lama Surya Das

"Poor Mr. Taneja. The man never seemed to leave his flat - he depended on her not only for milk, but for the food she delivered to him every afternoon. The paanwalla had told her the sad story about Mrs. Taneja's death, many years ago...After his wife's death, Mr. Taneja had gradually become a recluse, and the people in the building now regarded him as something of a mystery figure."

Perhaps Mr. Taneja is an extreme case of someone who still leaves in the past and for whom the idea of living in the present is as foreign as living in the future. The thought of living without someone you love can be extremely difficult for many people. But if somehow Mr. Taneja could find a way to see the "now" as a place that he could live in and stop living in his fantasies the sooner he could get back some of the energy that he had. It does take a lot of excess energy to live like a recluse.

I think we will see Mr. Taneja take the steps needed to move forward in his life. Perhaps, his story is about time and love. It's impossible to step over time. A person can only move with the flow of time. Flowing with time will allow him to move outside of his grief.

Food is major in all human cultures, but some folks seem to enjoy it more than others, Indians being one of the cultures most possessed of a fine enjoyment of eating, IMO. Afghan, also, life revolves around eating, the Middle East, too.

One of my favorite foods for snacks is hot Indian papadons with mango chutney. Every time I read the book I crave this. The Indian restaurant in my 'hood has changed owners, and the new ones don't do "hot." I will have to buy and fry my own papadons.

Kleo

The words of Lama Surya Das do have some appeal. Mystics tell us that the now-moment is supreme. What has been, and what is yet to be are poor substitutes for the joy of the moment, whatever it is. But just like that it is gone, and we are left again looking backwards, looking forwards. If only the now-moment would last forever.

Mal, the Sacred Thread link was too much for my computer. It crashed. As Mrs Jalal would say, it's very inauspicious.

I'm the newbie here and just want to say that I am reading the book, Job and travel situations haven't allowed me to post. I'm just starting chapter 6 and find the book extremely interesting and a very good read, I'm pleasantly surprised.

I feel like the simpleton of the group, but do want to say that I find the story and the writing approach very captivating. I'm also learning alot through the book and through the posts about a culture I was not very knowledgable.

I find all of your thoughts about symbolism very interesting, but can't put a finger on any agreements I may have along that line.

I found the out of body "ant" encounter to be so vivid - I gained much respect for the author for his ability to take me there.

Thanks for letting me be a part of the group - I'm really enjoying reading your posts and the book.

L.A.

There you are, L.A. Nice to hear from you. And you're coming back just as the book takes a turn into unbelievable regions. Many others must be away travelling and holidaying. After all it is August. The weather here in Southern Ontario is turning our summer into a dream. Hard to stay indoors. The fruits are ripening, and we have a bowl of fruit on the table that looks absolutely divine. Peaches and plums, pears and apricots, and nectarines, all grown locally.

But no mangoes. All the more exotic, trying to imagine them. Granted, the scene gets somewhat lascivious in the book, but it's part of the author's artistic vision, so we have to accept it. The mango seems to serve some transitional stage for Vishnu in his metamorphosis from human to divine.

I have found a splendid traveller's guide to India, in the DK EYEWITNESS Travel Guides series. It has an interesting paragraph on the fruit which so delights both Padmini and Vishnu:

'The mango (aam) is considered the king of tropical fruits and is the best-loved fruit of the country. The Mughal emperor Babur called it the "finest fruit of Hindostan". The popular paisley motif is derived from the shape of the mango fruit, and mango leaves, considered auspicious, are used as buntings at festive occasions. Of the hundreds of varieties grown all over the subcontinent, few are as aromatic and juicy as the mangoes of Jaunpur. The langra is arguably the best among the varieties grown here. It is fleshy, juicy and sweet, and possessed of a distinct tangy flavour. It sells at a premium countrywide and is widely exported to the Middle East and Europe. The dussehri from Lucknow, and the chausa from the Rampur region, are also popular varieties. The raw chausa is considered ideal for spicy chutneys and pickles, without which no meal is complete.' p199

You may want to keep that in mind, Kleo, when you ask for the mango chutney.

The above mentioned India guide is beautifully illustrated. Stunning photographs. Many of the Bombay landmarks mentioned in the book are here. To mention only the Haji Ali mosque on the water, and the beautiful Mahalaxmi Temple opposite, the scene of Mr Jalal's spiritual travels. Perhaps someone could find them for us on the internet. I googled streetmap Bombay, but was informed it is under construction. I hope it's not the same contractors that Mr Taneja had to deal with and whom he found so ineffctive.

"If I had my life over again I should form the habit of nightly composing myself to thoughts of death. I would practice, as it were, the remembrance of death. There is no other practice which so intensifies life. Death, when it approaches, ought not to take one by surprise. It should be part of the full expectancy of life. Without an ever-present sense of death life is insipid. You might as well live on the whites of eggs." ~ Muriel Spark

"We're all going to die one day. But who among us really believes it? It's such an obvious fact; why do we pretend it's never going to happen to us? Buddha called death and impermanence the most important teaching. He said, "Just as the elephant's footprint is the biggest footprint on the jungle floor, death is the greatest teacher...Yama Raja - the Lord of Death - is my teacher. Death drove me to see the deathless, to seek liberation from the bonds of birth and death." ~ Lama Surya Das

Mr. Jahal is he seeking life or death in his search for spiritual awareness? By seeking out Vishnu as he lay dying is Mr. Jahal also seeking death. Wouldn't he be better off "thinking" about his own death rather than searching for something thatis only the figments of his imagination. Mr. Taneja should have been prepared for his wife's death, but it would seem that in the end he was not.

I understand how difficult it is to prepare for the death of a loved one, but I also believe that in preparation we allow ourselves to examine what needs to be done at the time when death should occur. Acceptance of death is an individual experience, but it is also a universal one.

Mr Jalal has trouble believing his luck. He has received his sign. He has found his god. Vishnu is God, and Mr Jalal is well on the way to being his prophet.

His wife is aghast at the blasphemy of her husband.

Vishnu, too, may be feeling lucky that Mr Jalal came along. To make true what a mother's heart had wished, or known at his birth, and had named her child accordingly. The tenth, and last, incarnation of the god Vishnu.

The audacity of the author. To set his hand to writing about the making of a god. Strange that he should choose Mr Jalal, a muslim, to recognize the new divinity.

Mr Jalal, until now the intellectual, certainly wrestles with himself before taking on the role of prophet. Before following in the footsteps of Buddha, Jesus, and Muhammad. Having seen the vision, the doubts begin. He has always looked to logic and reason for explanation. Suddenly experience replaces explantion. Belief and faith were always beyond the intelligent man's comprehension. Now, having seen the light, reason becomes the enemy to conquer.

What a curious figure he cuts in the 5th part of Chapter 8, as he tries to put himself back together again.

Vishnu, in the 3rd scene, same chapter, is just as curiously beginning to feel himself into his new, divine role. This is all so unbelievable. And yet, Professor Suri seems to be on to something here. By sheer chance, I've just come across the following statement in the book, SINAI, by Heinz Skrobucha, Oxford U P, 1966:

'The god Allah, who in pre-Islamic times held a pre-eminent position in certain regions of Arabia, and subsequently by the agency of Mohammad was exalted to become the only god, is thought by some modern investigators to have been originally a moon-god, who in Mecca bore the name Hubal, and whose shrine, the Ka'aba with its black stone, was the object of an annual pilgrimage.' p4

God needs man to spread the word. I admit to surprise at where this book is taking us, I'm beginning to feel uncomfortable.

Jonathan said, “No doubt the study of the caste system would take much time and effort. Do you think it is missing in the novel?”

I feel like I have seen a small, but accurately depicted smidgen of the caste system in his novel. I don’t think it was under or over emphasized, but just provided a backdrop within which the characters lived.

Thanks, Kleo and Mal, for the information on the thread. There is so much to learn from this novel!

Interesting thoughts on Mr. Taneja living in the now and Mr. Jalal looking for death, Scrawler, neither of which had occurred to me. At this point, I feel sorry for Mr. Taneja, but I am not sure he feels sorry for himself. Talk about isolation!

Mangoes – yum! And I love the DK books! So do my kids.

Here is some info. on the temple. What in the world is in the foreground of this picture?!?

Mahalaxmi Temple

Here is some info. on the mosque. That a picturesque setting!

Haji Ali Mosque

I would like to suggest that the function of Mr. Jalal in this novel is as a foil.

Here are a few examples of what I mean:

He wants to be physically close to Vishnu when no one else does.

He tried to physically harm himself as a form of penance while the other characters seem to only be concerned with having no harm come to themselves or to their families.

He is interested in the spiritual, while the other characters, by and large, are most concerned with the minutia of day to day life.

He is not afraid to be different, while the other characters are constantly concerned about what other people think of them and their families.

Any thoughts?

Laura, are you talking about the marketplace? See the man carrying a bag of something out of it? Or what? Oh, I see, IN/OUT signs, too. The man and woman on the right are leaving down the stairs. Hmmm, maybe it is covered entranceway because it is under construction? Curious.

Thanks for the links.

I consider Jamal as a foil, Jonathan, but the problem is he IS different from the rest of them. He's a Muslim. So rather than a foil, he comes off as, hmmmm, well, I can't get out of thinking of him as a foil now. Although, generally a foil shows OTHERS' good qualities, instead this foil shows their bad qualities.

Still, Mr. Jamal is a bit of a clown. He can't obey the religion he is given. He seeks spirituality outside of himself, while criticizing it in others. He ignores his family.

Kleo

Yes, lots of thoughts, Laura, after that good post of yours (335), whether we should look at Mr Jalal as a foil.

And after yours too, Scrawler, regarding the death of Sheetal, whether, presumambly, Mr Taneja's coping with his wife's death is more constructive for seeing life in the right light, than the strange, uncertain death on the landing.

My first reaction to the 'foil' suggestion was like Kleo's. Mr Jalal is different. But of course, after his zeal in searching for the truth, the rest all look lacklustre in a religious sense. The rest are satisfied to go along with the everyday and the rituals.

Those four specifics about Mr Jalal's behaviour do spell out how serious he is in his searchings. What I found most interesting about him is the hunt for certainty which his intellectual efforts have not satisfied. Talk about a dichotomy. He scorns the unquestioning faith of others, beginning with his wife, whom he wanted to remake in his own image. He was looking for companionship of course. Having gotten nowhere in his efforts to enlighten his wife, he decides to try it her way. And makes a mess of it, in her opinion. To find faith. It's what the author does with that, that impresses me. Grappling with all his rational 'demons', to win through to faith, the author makes such an interesting drama out of it.

Being a Muslim makes it a very interesting question, whether he is more inquiring than the Hindu. The book is about the mind and soul of India as much as anything, I think. The Hindu comes by his faith naturally, as a given, and it's all-inclusive. More willing to absorb the new than to reject the old.

Why the tearful, sentimental story of the Tanejas? Did the author think that the reader might be feeling cheated? After being promised a death in the title, we find ourselves half way through the book with the dying man showing us the way to life. That makes Sheetal's death so heartbreaking. Does that make Vishnu a foil?

Thanks for the links to the Temple and the Mosque, Laura. Do the rest of you enjoy going to the other guy's holy places?

He still bothers me, though. He may be serious, but he's also seriously misguided. He's the one who's supposed to be the rationed intellectual.

I like my own holy place the best, Catholic churches. I've spent a lot of time in mosques, so I find them comfortable and familiar. I've only been to synagogue a few times, no impression either negative or positive, except that women may be separate, but not removed from the congregation as in mosques = positive. I've been to a Protestant church only a few times. They seem plain to me. Military chapels are like Protestant churches. When I was in the military the first thing I did at a new base was find the nearest outside Catholic community so I didn't have to attend mass in a plain chapel.

Kleo

Mal thank you for your thread too.

LauraD thank you very much for the interesting links.

I see Mr. Jahal as a fanatic. According to the dictionary: a fanatic is a person marked or motivated by an extreme, unreasoning enthusiasm, as for a cause.

Fanatical comes from the Latin word: fanaticu, inspired by orgiastic rites, pertaining to a temple, from fanum which means temple.

It also means one who holds extreme views like a zealot. And also means one who is zealously devoted to a religion.

Under fanatic I found this quote: "If you pick a truth and follow it blindly, it becomes a falsehood, and you a fanatic." ~ Unknown.

I think Mr. Jahal shows some extreme views in his search for a religion. His views may not be of one particular religion but the way he goes about finding his "religion" makes him, I think a zealot and a fanatic.

I see Mr. Jahal's religious attitude strange too. I believe he is a seeker. Being a Muslim is not filling his inner longings. The Muslim religion is not bringing him peace. Mr. Jahal is continuing to search. Will any religion satisfy him? Is it possible Mr. Jahal is stuck in the process of the search rather than the discovery?

Basically, I feel all religions are identical in some way. There are disciplines to follow, a supernatural being to worship, there is a special house of worship and there are certain Holy books to read and there is a principle teacher. Possibly, Mr. Jahal is fatiqued and bored with the common ways of worship. He is finding religious fervor only in the cream or sweet toppings of religion, not the normal, daily religious duties.

Mr. Jahal likes the flagellations, sleeping on hard surfaces and whatever is oddly different in the God, Vishnu. I feel Mr. Jahal will grow tired of Hinduism too. How frustrating to always search and never find. I see Mr. Jahal in a circle that is going around and around, like a carousel. Mr. Jahal can not remove himself from this moving circle without help.

Yes, great analogy. He's on a carousel, trying to get off the ride, but he thinks he has to grab a brass ring to get off.

And, good point, I don't think he'll be happy with anything. I've known people like him, always seeking the exotic, the different, no matter what it is. Never happy.

Kleo

Kleo I like the way you have written thoughts about Mr. Jahal. I believe he is looking for the "exotic." I feel sorry for his family. Someone made a post about being isolated in a crowd. It might have been Ginny's post. Mrs. Jahal feels the pain of isolation although she is married. She is all alone. Her husband, Mr. Jahal, might as well live in another part of the world. He shares nothing with her.

Family is important to Mrs. Jahal. This is probably why she does not divorce him. I do not know how Muslims feel about a woman trying to divorce her husband. If Mr. Jahal continued attending Mosque, I bet the spiritual leader would have felt very concerned about Mr. Jahal's trying out Hinduism and other religions.

I hate to think of Mr. Jahal in such a negative light. Perhaps, religion is at fault and not Mr. Jahal. He wants to learn the right path. He is looking for a guiding light. There are so many religions. Mr. Jahal becomes lost in confusion. His naiveté leads him into the arms of Vishnu, another religious god. Where will he go next?

Great posts and points! Are we in Chapter 8 then? What a mess and how hilarious and pitiful at the same time, Mr. Jalal has a sign!! A sign!! But how do the (note the figures whom he assigns himself with), Buddha, avatars, how DID they convert the masses? This is absolutely hilarious. I can't decide if the poor shmuck is intended as broad farce or as Everyman Seeking the Light. He's had "a sign!"

Now is he a foil as Laura D has suggested? That's really interesting and I must admit never occurred to me, great job there! I am unsure on my foils! Hahaha Foiled by foils:

Characters can be discussed in a number of ways
The protagonist is the main character, who is not necessarily a hero or a heroine. The antagonist is the opponent; the antagonist may be society, nature, a person, or an aspect of the protagonist. The antihero, a recent type, lacks or seems to lack heroic traits.

A persona is a fictional character. Sometimes the term means the mask or alter-ego of the author; it is often used for first person works and lyric poems, to distinguish the writer of the work from the character in the work.

Characters may be classified as round (three-dimensional, fully developed) or as flat (having only a few traits or only enough traits to fulfill their function in the work); as developing (dynamic) characters or as static characters.

A foil is a secondary character who contrasts with a major character; in Hamlet, Laertes and Fortinbras, whose fathers have been killed, are foils for Hamlet.

See I all along have been struggling with WHO the protagonist is and whose eyes we see this through. I still don't know if Vishnu himself IS a god, or has become one or is becoming one but I do know that without Mr. Jalal nobody else would know. Nobody.

So Mr Jalal is, in essence, the....er....imperfect messenger of the ...it's hilarious, it really is. At the same time you feel guilty laughing because the author MAY in fact be ridiculing all religion. Mr Jalal worries how to carry this gigantic burden, how to best explain it, his initial efforts fall on rocky ground, it's just....priceless.

And you can see in this also how the author then implicates in a million ways, religious beliefs in a million other people of all religions over the ages who have had "signs," or those souls who have had visits from outer space, spacemen and saucers, mystics. The author makes that point himself, bringing in Mr. Jalal's wondering how Buddha, etc., have handled it. He imagines himself in saffron robes speaking to the multitudes ...he thinks himself an avatar: "I am Vishnu, he says to himself. He his eager to learn the new ways and powers." (page 158 paperback).

He's a hoot.

And he's already converted one person anyway, Vishnu himself, who, it appears is not dead, and whose mother encouraged him to think of his namesake and morph into different avatars imaginatively at the slightest moment.

So in that one instance Mr. Jalal has already performed his first conversion, but he's unaware of it.

There appears to be one problem, tho. Mr Jalal's religion apparently forbids this sort of....discipleship. We forget he's not a Hindu.

"There are no more prophets. It's written in the Koran." (page 168).

And the answer "We all discover our own god. I've just begun to define mine. Think of the people I can lead to Vishmu. Think of all the people who might find their god in him."

There is no God but God," Mrs. Jalal screamed. (page 169).

So here we have a very mixed up religious prophet, sort of inventing his own religion as he goes, convinced he's the next....whoever. It's really something.

Is Mr. Jalal a foil, that's an excellent question, I am beginning to wonder (having just rediscovered the term foil ) if Vishnu is a foil for the others, himself, and if all of the characters are a .......what IS the proper term here, vehicle? For the author's sardonic wit. Or maybe his skewering of religion in general. Is this satire? What is it we're reading here?

JALAL is a great exaggeration, in my opinion. The comedy is so slapstick that it seems as if Suri wrote it for American audiences. In the town where I grew up people, in the class of the couple who raised me, immediately thought about Half-Naked Snake Charmers wearing Turbans and a Cobra in a Basket, or "nutty" Whirling Dervishes or equally "whacky" Mahatma Gandhi, when India was mentioned. This fits right in with Mr. Jalal's antics as he seeks by physical and intellectual means what he thinks is the spiritual method to ally two very different religions.

As far as the "lascivious" mango love scene goes, don't I remember that India is the home of the Kama Sutra? That the outside walls of some buildings and temples in India are decorated with bas relief portrayals and statues of the sex act in all of its variations? We haven't talked much about the sensual, sexual side of the characters in this book. Click the link below for illustration of this.

Genitalia Worship

The Chandela temples of Khajuraho in central India built in the tenth century A.D. contain stunningly explicit sexual sculptures

SCULPTURE of VISHNU

Ginny thank you for giving such a helpful post. Mal thank you for the links. There are very erotic scenes in the "Death of Vishnu." Why?

'I see Mr. Jahal as a fanatic.' Scrawler

'I see Mr. Jahal in a circle that is going around and around, like a carousel.' Hats

'I don't think he'll be happy with anything. I've known people like him, always seeking the exotic, the different, no matter what it is. Never happy.' Kleo

'I hate to think of Mr. Jahal in such a negative light. Perhaps, religion is at fault and not Mr. Jahal. He wants to learn the right path. He is looking for a guiding light. There are so many religions. Mr. Jahal becomes lost in confusion. His naiveté leads him into the arms of Vishnu, another religious god. Where will he go next?' Hats

'This is absolutely hilarious. I can't decide if the poor shmuck is intended as broad farce or as Everyman Seeking the Light. He's had "a sign!" ' Ginny

'JALAL is a great exaggeration, in my opinion. The comedy is so slapstick...' Mal

You're all so right. And so wrong. And I would like to show solidarity with you by also insisting that Mr Jalal has gone nuts. But hold on. This is where the plot gets very complicated. Accepting the fact that Mr Jalal is now the prophet, the author reverts to reality and shows there is no honor for a prophet in his own country. And they knew him not.

He may have turned fanatical, but his motivation has always been so honorable. His role models have been the great spiritual leaders. And most of all the Muslim Akbar, the emperor who wished so sincerely to bring Hindu and Muslim together. So if there is a lot of satire as regards religious leaders in the book, there is also a deep concern about India's social problems.

Good question, Hats. Why the erotic scenes?

That's worth thinking about. Off the top of my head. The erotic is also worshipped in India. But just as the rest of the world wonders, why the proccupation with sex in America. Of course it's during the erotic that we feel most alive. It's just illusory, of course, but we try awfully hard to make it the real. People faced with death, still think of the erotic. Strange isn't it?

Yes, it is strange Jonathan. I can not see how death and erotica mix together especially in our last moments of life. I can see males having these thoughts during death, not women.

Isn't it there is no honor for a prophet SAVE in his own country?

Ginny, no. Here's the passage from Matthew:

Matthew 13:57 (New King James Version) New King James Version (NKJV) Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.

So they were offended at Him. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own country and in his own house.”

Here is another definition of foil, taken from How to Read the Bible as Literature by Leland Ryken (just happen to be reading this book for another on-line class):

“A foil is literally something that ‘sets off’ or heightens what is most important in a story. It is usually a contrast, though it can also consist of a parallel that reinforces something else. The commonest type of foil is a character who accentuates the protagonist, but sometimes an event or thread of action can serve as a foil to the main plot.”

You know, while I don’t disagree with what any of you have said, I think I have more sympathy for Mr. Jalal. Yes, I thought his prior methods of trying to be religious were odd. His claim that he had a vision is viewed as odd by many people, but I actually think the vision is much more normal and will lead him where he needs to go, assuming he can figure out a way of using the vision.

Could the author be saying that religion is most important, but people in the neighborhood are too busy, preoccupied, focusing on small details instead of the big picture, to notice? Just like people are trying to be too busy to notice that Vishnu is dying…

P.S. Erotica on Indian buildings --- who knew?!?!

I didn't know.

Is the vision of Vishnu as a god just Mr. Jahal's conscience being overworked?

Thanks, Deems, I had it backwards.

Oh I have sympahy for Mr. Jalal, don't get me wrong I think as I said he may be Everyman, tho and I think the author is making a point here.

Yes whole sects of Indian religion have the sexual act as part of their beliefs, actually.

But Mr. Jalal is not a prophet of his own religion, so he's making his up, I reallly think there's a message here, he can't be a prophet to his own people so he needs to be one to another.

In other words, what I am trying to say is I don't see any benefit OF religion so far in any character, all of those who are religious are:

isolated

ignored despised

off the wall

I'm not seeing anything which would make me want to BE religious, but maybe Mr. Jalal has not worked his magic yet?

I find it interesting that Mr. Jahal is not listening to the clear voice of reason in his head. He chooses to ignore "reason" and follow what is fantastical.

"Mr. Jahal recognized his old friend, Reason. Revived and hungry to reclaim its rightful place...Already, he could feel it nipping here and there tentatively, testing the durability of what he had witnessed."

I think these people are bored too. Just surviving, making a daily living, is not enough. All of these people are looking for the green Wizard of Oz, something so different, it will lift them out of the world of have nots and into a world of rarity.

I can't really understand this concept. "Didn't the Hindus hold that reality was just an illusion? That everything was MAYA as they called it--all existence a temporary delusion..." I would think this idea of, Maya, would make unhappy people feel contented. What is happening to me is not reality, it is only an illusion. Then, Mr. Jahal and Vishnu are not experiencing reality???? They are really experiencing the "unreal." In the Hindu faith is there no reality?

"Gandhi once said, "Those who say that religion has nothing to do with politics do not understand religion." Increasing as Buddhists we are attempting to extend our sense of social and moral responsibility to include others, particularly those who are suffering from various injustices and deprivations. We are also searching for ways to express our deep concern for the natural world." ~ Lama Surya Das

One of the reasons I think Manil Suri portrayed Mr. Jahal as he did was to show him as a "farce" in the eyes of the audience. One of the messages that I think this novel is trying to tell us is that we have to be aware of our "social and moral responsibility". The author hammers this home in the portrayal of Mr. Jahal. He takes his character almost to the edge and than dangles him for our reading pleasure. But doesn't this "farce" make us more aware of the social and moral responsibility that surround us in a way that if he simply portrayed Mr. Jahal as a normal every day routine individual. Authors sometimes exaggerate their characters thoughts and actions to drive home a particular point.

It's full of smoke and mirrors, just as JONATHAN said, and it's impossible to find the truth, in this opus, anyway. This is not a true picture of India, even symbolically. I'm sure that if Suri read these posts he'd be satisfied in knowing he had stimulated so many to a state of confusion. In the quiet of his room, he'd have the last laugh, I'm sure.

Mal

Mal Isn't that the Maya, no reality only illusion? In my mind I connect living in a world of no reality, only illusion, with the movies the characters constantly remember, taking parts of the movies and relating the movie scenes to their lives. May be this is a group of people who can not face reality? Are all of the characters living in a dream world?

Vishnu, lying on the staircase, is too much reality for any of these people to face. So, nobody attends his needs. If you don't help him, he is not really there. If you make him a god, he is not there either because a god would not lie on a stairstep in unsanitary conditions.

Vishnu, almost dead, is out of reality too. Vishnu sees himself as a god. He literally believes what his mother said to him all those years ago. Mal, may be she did brainwash him.

I don't know, HATS. It seems like a long time ago that I read some of the Vedas when we were discussing Our Oriental Heritage in the Story of Civilization discussion. I'd have to go back and read them again to remember what I thought I learned then. I'm five years older now than I was then, for goodness sake!

There's so much in this book that is physical that it's hard to remember that Vishnu's journey takes place in his mind, as does Jalal's quest for perfect peace in religion. So, what's left of reality? Kavita's dupatta?

It's no wonder to me that Suri mentions movies as much as he does. If this reality illusion factor is truth, then life is nothing more than one frame after another of a flickering film.

Vishnu proclaims himself a god after he hears Jalal make the announcement. Jalal is wrong, so is Vishnu, though the intellectual exercises he went through to reach the terrace and a butter-eating blue kid he named Krishna, make the reader think Jalal was right.

In other words, I don't think the apartment Vishnu is the god Vishnu, or ever was. The last sentence of the book is the clincher for me.

Mal

Given the comments of Ginny, Hats and Scrawler, I think I will revise my thought to be: Could the author be saying that moral conscious/responsibility is more important, but people in the neighborhood are too busy, preoccupied, focusing on small details instead of the big picture, to notice? We’ll see what the end of the book brings…

Just to clarify, I have never thought that the man Vishnu was the god Vishnu. Mr. Jalal has a vision or dream of the man Vishnu as the god Vishnu and then Vishnu has a vision or a dream of himself as the last incarnation of the god Vishnu. That’s my interpretation anyway.

Mal and Hats, I agree that the further we get into the book, the more and more I find it to be what I think a silly Bollywood movie would be like (though I can’t be sure since I haven’t seen one).

"Family is important to Mrs. Jahal. This is probably why she does not divorce him. I do not know how Muslims feel about a woman trying to divorce her husband."

Divorce is usually cultural for Muslim women and most Muslim cultures, that I know of, don't allow women to divorce. In Afghanistan women don't divorce men, only men divorce women (not 100%, but close enough to make it the rule for women). In American, Afghan women can and do divorce when necessary.

"I hate to think of Mr. Jahal in such a negative light. Perhaps, religion is at fault and not Mr. Jahal. He wants to learn the right path. He is looking for a guiding light."

I don't think of him in a negative light so much as an uninteresting light. He's been given so much, a devoted wife, an intelligent son, who's really crossing the lines, and he thinks he has nothing. He worships Vishnu on the stairs, who really has nothing, and still doesn't appreciate what he has. I'm disappointed in him, I guess, in the same way my best friend's father was disappointed in us when he caught us smoking in her bedroom when we were 15. So many people have so little, why can't Mr. Jalal appreciate what he has?

Ginny, Muslims can indeed take the self-flaggelation option, should they so desire. It's more commonly done among Shia than Suni, but I believe their are options for it in the latter, also.

Laura, I'll go 100% with that definition of foil and Mr. Jalal.

Ginny, good point that all the religious folks feel "isolated, ignored, despised or off the wall."

It's a little shocking how poorly the religious Mrs. Jalal is viewed especially when she offers something precious to Vishnu and the Hindu ladies, the simple right to die with a little dignity, maybe a little more comfort for free. How greedy the Hindu women are to keep this from Vishnu just so they can not lose face by failing to have something the same to offer him.

All of these people are looking for the green Wizard of Oz, something so different, it will lift them out of the world of have nots and into a world of rarity. Hats

Yes, and don't we all want to be special? But, like artistic abilities, a great voice, the body to dance, a keen intellect, some humans are way out on the tails of the bell curve in this desire, right alongside Mr. Jalal.

"There's so much in this book that is physical that it's hard to remember that Vishnu's journey takes place in his mind, as does Jalal's quest for perfect peace in religion. So, what's left of reality? Kavita's dupatta?" Jonathan

Oh, I keep forgetting that.

Please, please, please CAN WE NOT HINT AT THE ENDING? For those of us who have not read it? Please?

Kleo

I wish I had asked that. But it's Mal's question. And it's a good one. Where in all this can we find any truth? No one will deny that the dupatta is crucial to the plot. But what a source of error and contention.

Just too many good points in the last dozen posts. And all so valid. I wish I had the time to reply to all of them. But I've spent most of the last 24 hours at my wife's bedside in EMERGENCY. She's fine, I want to assure you. For the second time in six months I've had to rush her to the hospital, after falling to the floor unconscious. She comes out of it after an hour or two, and is then her usual healthy self. The doctors are puzzled. This time they are keeping her hooked up to all kinds of monitoring devices, heartbeats, brainwaves, blood pressure, oxygen counts, and on and on. And there she sits, as talkative as ever. Even treated me to a very macho satisfaction. Her heartbeat went to 83 from 76, when I kissed her a temporary farewell an hour ago. She was working away at her computer, preparing historical documents for publication, when she fell off her chair. Out like a light. After 24 hours of monitoring, nothing. We'll keep going for another 24, says the doctor, then we may just have to consider it a fainting spell. How can I stay focused on Vishnu with this on my mind? I wonder if it was something she read.

{{{Jonathan!!}}} Good grief!! What on earth could it be? Fainting? Low blood sugar? TIA? Low blood pressure? Good grief! I hope they find this out, what an awful worry for you both! Here's hoping she will be running marathons on Monday!

I can well imagine it's hard to keep your mind on things, jeepers. So she's still in the hospital for tests? That's the best place for her so they can find out what is wrong, the same thing happened to one of our Books folks not a couple of days ago, scary!!

You take it easy. Should we move on to chapter 9 do you think?

Kleo, the self flaggellation issue was not me, I don't think? If it was, I was having some sort of out of body experience, myself. I mentioned the sex I think. I'm really behind you all here but will move ahead to Chapter 9 this evening.

"What is meant by "reality"? It would seem to be something very erratic, very undependable - now to be found in a dusty road, now in a scrap of newspaper in the street, now in a daffodil in the sun. It lights up a group in a room and stamps some casual saying. It overwhelms one walking home beneath the stars and makes the silent world more real than the world of speech - and then there it is again in an omnibus in the uproar of Picadilly. Sometimes, too, it seems to dwell in shapes too far away for us to discern what their nature is. But whatever is touches, it fixes and makes permanent. That is what remains over when the skin of the day has been cast into the hedge; that is what is left of past time and of our loves and hates." ~ Virginia Woolf, "A Room of One's Own"

I think from what I understand from the above passage, Virginia Woolf is saying that it is harder to live in "reality" and seek truth than it is to live within our fantasies. And I also think that this is what Manil Suri is trying to accomplish. All of his characters are living in their own fantasy world because to them it is a lot easier to live in them than to face the "real" world with "real" problems.

Why else would any of these characters let a dying man stay on the staircase while they go on about their individual lives.

Jonathan I am so sorry to hear about your wife. Giving all of your care and thoughts to her is most important at this time. It is very worrisome when doctors can not come up with answers until a later time. Thoughts are with you.

I'm going to attack Chapter 9 today but before I do I woke up realizing what is wrong with this picture?

Mr. Jalal (note how we are calling him that? He does have a first name but we're not ever referring to him familiarly ourselves?? To US, despite our knowing his inmost desires, he's always Mr. Jalal.

Interesting and I don't think it's a mistake, it's interesting which characters the author DOES call by their first names, actually, isn't it?

But I got up thinking, hey! THIS disciple is a strange one. His visions, his thoughts on spreading the word, are of himself, standing in saffron robes, calling the masses, being the center of attention HIMSELF, he's to BECOME like the other atavars. This is not religion, is it?

??

Everyman? Is he Everyman, not able to handle the "light?" I am sure I wouldn't be, and that's why he's such a fun character, to me, go and do likewise? He's more obsessed with his own aura. I AM glad to finally get the prophet stuff set. For years I said in his own country and somebody corrected me, and so for the remainder of years I have said the opposite, tho it made no sense, never quite understood why the prophet would be accepted by others and not his own but it sort of made sense after a while, so it's good, that's one thing this discussion has done, I've got it straight (or do I?) (for a week or so) now. Are you that way? If somebody corrects me, I remember the correction but doggone if I can remember what it was about. Ahahaha

So a prophet is respected in his own area, but not outside it. Well Mr. Jalal, then, is proof positive of the opposite, he's not respected in his own area at all. I think this is hilarious, I agree with Malryn, over the top, a topsy turvey religious experience, but I also think it's aimed at ALL of us. Especially in a country with 330 million (I looked that one up again) gods and minor devils, you're going to have people all over the wall in belief.

And I think Laura's definition is right on, of foil: “A foil is literally something that ‘sets off’ or heightens what is most important in a story. It is usually a contrast, though it can also consist of a parallel that reinforces something else. The commonest type of foil is a character who accentuates the protagonist, but sometimes an event or thread of action can serve as a foil to the main plot.”

So in this Mr. Jalal's new vision accentuates the protagonist (who is Vishnu, right? Or is the protagonist Mr. Jalal??!!??) Can you have two? It would SEEM to me that the book so far revolves around Visnhu? Agree? Disagree?

Scrawler, interesting on Virginia Woolf's idea of reality. I don't understand Maya either, Hats. Good point on Reason, but is the author here making his own point that faith and visions mean you put aside your old friend Reason?

You can make points in a lot of different ways, right? Smoke and mirrors? Gammon and spinach? I have not read past Chapter 8, I'll do that now.

I did want to say tho that i do remember milk delivered to the door in bottles with the foil tops on them, nice little seque here that short Ganga (note she seems to dislike that name) does about how they might suspect her of selling the good product and bringing the inferior, the nerve (she has not done that today)hahaha There is a LOT a LOT of irony in this thing or something. Or something.

But I remember that milk, do any of you? Cream all over the top, you had to gouge it off. I have no idea, by our current standards of sanitation, how it kept from spoiling. I also remember (you'll not believe this one) the milkman came in a horse and wagon (this was in Philadelphia in the '40's) and the horse did the stops automatically, knew where to stop along the route, interesting to watch. Even the most technologically advanced automobile today can't do that! I also remember when blocks of ice were hauled up to second and third storey windows for the ...."ice box" to keep food refrigerated. (Oh turn off the bubble machine!) haahaa

HATS!!! Hats Hats! Hats was there too, in Philly I just remembered, ok straighten me out, I know the ice is a valid memory because I once got chased from the ice house back to my own by a gang of boys, I made it to the neighbors, but do you remember the HORSE and wagon for the milk or do you remember a truck and DO you remember the lamp lighters for the street lights (which I was afraid to mention lest you all think I am 150 years old) or have I seen too many Sherlock Holmes movies? Straighten me out on these two and we'll go by you, I seem to be doing a romanticized version of The Old Days (to go with my romanticized Prophet and his own land!)

Ginny -

A prophet is not without honor save in his own country

Words spoken by Jesus to the people of Nazareth, the town where he grew up. They refused to believe in his teaching because they considered him one of themselves and therefore without authority to preach to them.

http://www.answers.com/topic/a-prophet-is-not-without-honor-save-in-his-own-country

The expression is now used of anyone whose talents and accomplishments are highly regarded by everyone except those at home.

THERE'S the "save!" Now see, Deems and Marge, that's the one I used to struggle with NOT without (2 negatives ) save (except).

No wonder I don't know what it means!

MarjV, stand over here by me. It is our mission to tilt Ginny in the right direction. I'm going to try an example. One more time--the idea is that a great person is respected everywhere but in his/her home town. You've given us the example of Jesus, who when he went to Nazareth, was not able to perform as many miracles. The people there, or many of them, were familiar with him--ahh, that's just Jesus, son of Joseph, the carpenter.

Ginny--I went to school with Bill Cohen, later long-time senator from Maine and then Sec. of State under Clinton. He's pretty well known now, throughout the world, but in the Bangor area, those of us who know him as "Billy," are somewhat accustomed to being in his presence and no one comes undone when he shows up for high school reunions.

The idea here is--that man/woman/ person/prophet can't be the real thing because I know him/her and have for a long time.

However, people who aren't from the same place see all manner of sparkles around the heads of famous people.

Think of you and Wally Lamb. If, upon seeing him at the D.C. book fair, you had recognized an old high school classmate, I'll bet you wouldn't have been struck dumb.

Maryal

Oh like that does not totally confuse me.

Just tell me flat out: is the prophet respected in his own country or not (not that I will remember it five minutes).

hahaha on Wally Lamb, he sure did us right for all that incoherence (thanks to Andrea) huh?

The prophet is NOT respected in his own country.

OK~ So it's Billy and Joseph's son, he is NOT respected in his own country then that fits Mr. Jalal who seems not respected anywhere at least so far.

Except by some of our readers, all those negatives really clog me up!

(Isn't that what I said originally?)

I yield the field! hahahaa

"A prophet is not without honor save in his own country" implies that he is with honor in his own country. So, if Mr. Jalal is "not respected anywhere at least so far," he's not a prophet.

Kleo

Well! What a telling point, Kleo, because according to the Koran, he's not a prophet anyway?!?

Ginny I have romanticized our "old Philadelphia" too. I do remember glass bottles of milk being delivered by a truck, I think.

Milk wagon???? I don't know what you call it.

But no horse! I seem to remember that horse, but I think I have seen too many movies, it was a TRUCK, Anderson! hahahaa If you leave me alone I'll have us riding to school in a chuck wagon!

I think it was a truck! Oh boy! We can have a horse instead of a truck if we want to. It's our "Old Philadelphia."

"Anyone interested in Tibetan Buddhism quickly discovers the importance of Padma Sambhava in Tiebetan history. Revered by the Tibetan people as being fully enlightened, Padma Sambhava is often referred to as Guru Rinpoche (Precious Guru) or the Second Buddha. It was sometime around A.D. 763 when Padma Sambhave founded the first Buddhist monastery in Tibet at Samye, yet his life and work had a direct impact on the West. That's because Padma Sambhava is credited with imparting and preserving many of the core teachings that first attracted Westerners to Tibetan Buddhism. Practical as well as visionary, Padma Sambhava foresaw that there would be an attempt by an early Tibetan ruler to suppress Buddhism. He therefore instructed his disciples to conceal sacred writings and ritual implements in the many rocks and caves in the mountains and countryside of Tibet. Tradition holds that there were more than a hundred such texts, known as terma, the Tibetan word for treasure." ~ Lama Surya Das

I think the clue we have as to the definition of a prophet is that he/she is not only a person who sees visions, but takes those visions and uses them in a practical way. Certainly, saving the sacet writings and ritual implements would be something that a profhet would do.

Now, by the same token what does Jahal do? We can say that he sees visions, yes, but what does he do with them? Does he make his life or any other life better because he can see these visions?

Ingrid is back home again, and all that remains of the misadventure is the lump on her head. Calmed down again, I wonder if I should ask her if the knock on her head opened things up for her in a visionary sense.

What is it that spoils it for Mr Jalal? Should he have taken a lesson from Padma Sambhava? Why are his prophetic endeavours so ineffective? Why won't they believe him? Of course his wife is horrified. He's turning into an infidel. That implicates her! She could be expected to throw the first stone. As has been pointed out, the Koran forbids it. Mohammed's account is the final truth.

The book will have been worth it, if we come away with an understanding of the role of the prophet. Not to mention an insight into the nature of religion.

I thought we were humming along, and had arrived at an understanding of prophets and honor, until Kleo came up with that new twist. No respect. No prophet.

Perhaps Mr Jalal is in too much of a hurry. The best he can come up with, is to say that his vision was something like what they all see everyday on the calendars hanging on the cigarettewalla's shop wall. Asking everyone to see some divinity in that man on the landing is asking too much. Vishnu! As was mentioned early on, some people might think of him as a bum. Not quite like Bill Cohen in Bangor, but every bit as much a member of the apartment block community in Bombay. He is liked by everyone after a fashion. Does anyone need to fell guilty about not 'helping' him? That's been raised in a number of posts. Moral duty, and such.

I feel we get into deep waters in the following chapters. Nine and beyond. Suri has many irons in the fire, despite the seemingly superficial treatment of his subject. Talk about prophets and gods and avatars. And Vishnu finds himself in the middle of it all.

One of the Gangas chooses to make a scientific experiment. She notices whatever she carries up the stairs becomes heavier. For example, her tiffin box becomes heavier the further up the staircase she carries it. Ganga is very serious about her experiment. I can not think what significance this experiment might have in order to understand the death of Vishnu or the lives of the other apartment dwellers. Ganga does notice the weight of the styrofoam remains the same. She decides to "ignore" the styrofoam.

Jonathan I am glad your wife is home and doing better.

Great news, Jonathan, I am so glad she's back home and I hope they have a clue to where this will not happen again.

hahaha Hats, Short Ganga almost got me there for a minute, she had me believing it hahahaaha I figured the pull of gravity, right, should be heavier the farther away from the earth you get, except in outer space, right? Doesn't Suri teach something on the order of physics or mathematics, or? Let's invite him to the SN Conference in DC and ask him directly? hhhahahaaa

But if you have a scale and you weigh yourself on the 10th floor surely to goodness you don't weigh more than you do on the first floor? hahahaa

I don't know what the point is there, either, but it fits, it's incomprehensible, just like Chapter 9. Mangoes a soft fruit not edible until extremely ripe and then lasting only a day or so, sex, is he ...here's something from my Waterstone book on India, check THIS out!

According to the book:

One of the most popular images of Kali depicts here bestriding the sleeping , or "corpse" form of the god Shiva. Tantric images represent her in the act of sexual intercourse, squatting upon Shiva's prostrate body. Such images are symbols of the union of Shiva and Shakti, the male and female principles of godhead.

Then there's Tantric beliefs but before that talking about time and relativity there's the notion of Time and the wheel:

Concepts of Time:

this is a chariot wheel of the sun god Surya, from the temple of Komarak in Orissa.

The transcendence of time is the aim of every Indian spiritual tradition. Time is frequently presented as the enemy, as an eternal wheel that binds the soul to a mortal existence of ignorance and suffering. "Release" from times' fateful wheel is termed moksha and an advanced ascetics may be called kala-atita ("he who has transcended time.")...Time in Hindu mythology is conceived of as a wheel turning through vast cycles of creation and destruction known as kalpa Classical Hindu texts understand each kalpa to be a life in the creator god Brahma. He is said to live for 100 Brahmic years which are equivalent to 311, 040,000,000,000 human years. ,,,,,

And so on, very very complicated. The sexual act is part of the Tantric ritual, but it's a very complicated subject, itself.

I am not seeing our Vishnu as an ascetic. He is, actually, the definition of venal, trying to look up women's skirts and spending all his time thinking of the sexual act, and sensuality. HOWEVER, could he be a Tantric or is Suri as Malryn suggested making fun of everything OR has Suri hopelessly mixed up his religions, or done it deliberately?

Do you see our own Vishnu here as any sort of holy man or ascetic?

What's Mr. Jalal (who at least in this chapter does think he needs to convert his own family first, but hey, he started out that way, right? He wanted to convert her when he met her) going to actually DO in the way of converting people, what's he going to convert them TO?

Does Chapter 9 make any sense at all to ANYBODY? hahahaa

Ginny complicated is right! Do you think Hinduism is the most complicated religion in the world? I certainly can't understand it.

No!! I do not see our man, Vishnu, as a Holy man. This is what confuses me. Why would Mr. Jahal see Vishnu as a god? Of all people why Vishnu the guy who even resorted to stealing a car????

In Chapter nine I think Mr. Taneja makes sense. I can understand his grief. Still, his grief has lightened over the years but Mr. Taneja doesn't change. He's in a static mode, frozen, I think.

Why would M. Suri make Ganga say something like that? I got taken in forgetting my Science. The higher we go in space the lighter we become. So what does this mean? The sentence is even written in italics.

Ginny thank you for all your Hindu illustrations. The wheel catches my interest. Do we, as Westerners, think of time as an enemy? How do we view time? If I understand correctly, in Hinduism time is thought of as an enemy.

This is a quote from one of the articles you printed for us.

"The transcendence of time is the aim of every Indian spiritual tradition. Time is frequently presented as the enemy, as an eternal wheel that binds the soul to a mortal existence of ignorance and suffering."

"Living in the now is a natural practice, because the present moment is the natural state. We're always in the now, even if we don't totally know it. If we are remembering the past, where does that take place except in the now through present awareness? If we are thinking about the future, we are doing our planning and thinking now. We are always in the present no matter how scattered and distracted we may be.

Returning to the now and maintaining that awareness is like coming home to ourselves. Of course, just as we've never been anyone else, we've never been anywhere else. But we lose touch, and we forget. Yet, it's always now. Now or never. This is our sane sanctuary in TIME called right now. It's where we really are no matter what stories we are telling ourselves. That's why it's such a relief to simply rest in the present, just as we are. Opening up to the miracle of the present moment is a gift we give ourselves." ~ Lama Surya Das

"Time" is defined as: period during which something exists or continues or can be accomplished. So if we accept what is said in the above paragraphs "time" is really in the here and now. We remember what has passed and we look forward to the future, but ultimately we live in the here and now.

Now what about the characters in this book. Are they living the here and now? Physically, perhaps you can say that they are, but their minds are else where. They have all forgotten and lost touch with what is real. There are those who think only of the past and others that look forward to the future. But few if any are really in their minds in the here and now.

On Tuesday, in two days time, we will be into the fourth week of the schedule, concluding the discussion with the last four chapters. Until then, anything in the first 12 chapters is on the table, waiting for someone's comment. So, where are we? It gets so confusing. The narrative style presents the reader with so many points of view. So much going back and forth in time and space. With every new scene the reader has to change gears, to follow the contours of the road. And so much happening at the same time.

Where, for that matter, are we in the lives of the characters? It's the characters that drive the plot, it seems. Where's Kavita at? Whatever happened to her? What does she want?

Mr Jalal? We've tried to figure him out. He started out well. Mrs Jalal wonders:

'Her poor Ahmed, how hard he had tried, how hard he still tried, to transcend himself. She had never seen a person with such aspirations, such ideals.' p214

Mr Jalal was an intelligent man looking for answers. Then it was off to search for a mission. Along the way he wrestles with reason, then faith, and then with doubt. While all the time being caught up in the historical forces at work in India.

Vishnu? Delightful. He doesn't look up skirts. That's the other man on the lower landing. He doesn't steal cars. He only borrows them. Mostly, now, he's treating the reader to a picturesque trip through religious mythology. Trying to live it, in fact. But, is he, or isn't he a god?

' "I am Kalka," he says, brandishing his stick', remembering a childhood experience. A minute later, on the next page,

' "I am Kalka, the white horse of Vishnu", he says, now back in the present.

Vinod Taneja? Where is he at any given moment, reliving 25 years of memories. And as he relives them, so does Sheetal, his wife, as she appears, disappears, and reappears. How very sad.

Where in Bombay, for that matter, is the apartment block where all of this is happening. We could work it out, given the many coordinates. In the course of the book the reader gets to many well-known places in the city. There's much more. What a romp through Indian life and culture.

I hope you are all fixing clearly in your minds, such things as pedas and laddoos. Ghunghats and gulab jamuns. What an exotic place, this India.

Scrawler, I like your posts about reality (#365) and about time (#390). They tie in very nicely with the idea of being caught up in everyday details instead of living in a morally conscious way.

I consider Vishnu to be the protagonist of the book. Funny to think about him this way though because he is physically inactive.

Why won’t people believe Mr. Jalal? I wouldn’t. Poor guy. Mr. Jalal is no more a prophet than any of us. He is a regular guy who has had something extraordinary happen to him. He doesn’t know what to do with the information. Would you pay attention to a street corner preacher? Or would you pay attention to a neighbor’s words and actions over a period of time? Mr. Jalal has a sense of urgency, so he is acting the preacher on the corner who people ridicule rather than like a methodical person affecting change over a period of time (I hope this makes sense).

Hmmm, is Professor Suri making a joke about relativity and gravity? Certainly weightier matters get weightier the higher up humans go, a prophet must have heavy burdens indeed. Short Ganga, though? Her physical burdens are relatively more heavy to her the higher up she goes, but those things that are not burdens, the styrofoam she craves, don't weigh more.

Is it Vishnu who tries to look up women's skirts? I thought it was someone on another landing, a person who remains without a story because they have not resorted to dying.

Laura, your comment makes perfect sense. I see this in movies all of the time, horror films, where something is revealed and instead of the revealee releasing the information in a methodical and understandable manner, they go to the street-corner and rant and preach. Who listens to street-corner prophets? No one. And they suffer the consequences, Freddie's axe, Samara slithering out of the TV, the deadly infection, the mag 10 earthquake.

Kleo

Kleo said, "Is it Vishnu who tries to look up women's skirts? I thought it was someone on another landing, a person who remains without a story because they have not resorted to dying."

I laughed out loud at this, Kleo! Oh no! Maybe the book is beginning to affect me!

Ok now I'm up to Chapter 12, now that I know where we are and of course I could not stop at 12, I had to roar on, skimming to find out what happened to the Jalals, one thing's for sure: the laughing has stopped and I'm not sure I don't feel some anger here at the author for what he's done, he's made several of the characters, which seem to revolve around Vishnu as a wheel, likeable and poignant, Everyman, and now he's causing Everyman harm, which, unless there is a very good reason, irritates me no end.

I feel betrayed or something.

What a lot of stories we have circulating here, in our wheel. I am now used to his pattern and if I were not so angry at him I would try to outline if there is a reason why he skips to WHO he skips to (I do see structure in this, do you) and so I assume there is a reason, but I'm too angry at Suri to want to find it.

Does there always have to be a POINT to a book? In other words will we, in the last chapters of this book see a reason, will we have a coda or a denouement or something? Is there a point to this? Can the characters in a book just exist for no reason and do whatever they'd like? The action has built up and up to...is this the climax? I hope not because I'm not seeing a lot of reason in it. I don't think he has developed his sub themes enough to warrant what's happening now in this section, the other characters as Scrawler mentioned, where are they? They are cardboard and one dimensional, so I am not seeing why all of a sudden the cigarettewalla takes on such prominence or why he all of a sudden feels such ....I'm not seeing this, at all.

This is a mess. I felt quite angry, sympathizing with Mrs. Jalal's attempts to protect her husband, that's piteous. I feel quite angry at Dr. Suri this morning.

OR is it a case of a poem not meaning but BEING? If that's the case, can a book, like the play Our Town (which I always hated but am coming to see the value of) just show Random Acts of Whatever? And that be IT?

Laura said "would you believe Mr. Jalal? I wouldn't." me either and it's pitifully clear in this section they don't either. I dislike this section (can you tell?)

What is Suri saying here? Why is he saying it? What is he saying about religion and visionaries and life? The Title of the book is the Death of Vishnu and it seems to me what's actuallly dying here is idealism of whatever sort. Quite irritated at Dr. Suri here. "Resort to dying" is right on: the fact that he's MADE the character of Mr. Jalal and Mrs. Jalal poignant and thus caught our (my) sympathy is beside the point: HE has created this mess and this reader feels there better be a good reason! snort hahahaa

'it seems to me what's actuallly dying here is idealism of whatever sort. Quite irritated at Dr. Suri here. "Resort to dying" is right on...'

Wonderful post, Ginny. And the same for Laura's and Kleo's before that, which I read last night, which had me laughing. This book can shake one up. But I'm sure the author doesn't want us to lose sight of our ideals. It's only the illusions he wants us to shed.

Suri does have a wicked sense of humor. But it's a wise and kindly humor that reaches the secret places of our hearts and minds.

What to make of all the illustrative stories that he uses to give us a picture of his India. And the endearing characters he remembers growing up in Bombay. Vishnu is taken from real life (hahaha) he acknowledges. And no one else? Surely Short Ganga must have been around as well. This curious creature who just knows that the mango left for Vishnu has been impregnated with spirits and curses. And now it turns out this superstitious girl is also a budding Einstein with her reflections on her own experience. Einstein, too, admitted that his theories were intuitional.

Is Mr Jalal any brighter than Short Ganga. He hardly knows or understands the message he has for the world. And yet he is so confident that he says to his wife:

'I'm the only one who knows about Vishnu. I can tell them about him. Think of how rewarding it is. To set someone's mind free.' p230

But of course it's too late. The mob at the door is out for blood. So, it's only Mr Jalal's poor sense of timing that is out. Or is it a matter of being lost in the immediate experience, once he gets away from his books, which have always propped him up in the past.

His wife supplies the perspective to appreciate the inevitable violence approaching their apartment door:

'Who knew what these Hindus were capable of? She remembered all those nights in Songri during Partition, cowering under the bed with (her sister) Nafeesa as Hindu gangs roamed the street outside. Just yesterday there had been a news item in the paper about an entire Muslim village in Bihar being massacred. Perhaps she should call the police.' p201

Of course, Mr Jalal, too, is concerned about the communal violence, the tinder-box situation in the Hindu/Muslim ethnic problem. Hence his mission. But events have passed him by. It's too late.

"The most beautiful emotion we can experience is the mystical. It is the power of all true art and science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty, which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their most primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling, is in the center of true religiousness. In this sense, and in this sense only, I belong to the rank of devoutly religious men." ~ Albert Einstein.

"In this postmodern era, people don't just want a belief or understanding divinity. They want some kind of special spiritual event. They want the payoff of an enlightment or mystical experience. They want to be able to touch, feel, weigh, and know for themselves.

This need to reinforce one's belief with tangible firsthand evidence is quite undersandable. People the world over love to hear and tell stories of mysterious, unexplained phenomena." ~ Lama Surya Das

I believe Manil Suri has created just such a tale in "The Death of Vishnu." Suri puts several characters through there paces as if they were really in a motion picture. Others see mystic visions. And still others see only the past and as the case in real life the younger characters are looking forward to the future.

At first we might see the humor in this tale. It has everything in it but the kitchen sink, but if I'm not mistaken I think that's in it too with the two waring couples over the shared kitchen.

But as the story progresses it goes beyond the slap stick humor and goes into the mysterious. Such as the visions that are seen both by Jahal and Vishnu. But now as we get closer to the end and we have become attached to these characters and we feel for them, we begin to be concerned for them. We are now seeing and feeling the cause and affect that the author wants us to feel.

We see what affect, for example, Jahal has on all the other characters and we become angry. What started out as a farce has became more like a mystical experience. Like Einstein suggests we are having through the eyes of Jahal and Vishnu a religious experience and perhaps we are angry because we not only care for the characters and don't want anything to happen to them, but we also are not sure of the religious experience that is portrayed.

Scrawler, a wonderful post.

Just the perfect thing going into the last chapters of the book. What a great testimonial from Albert Einstein regarding the Great Mystery. And your quotes from the writings of Lama Surya Das have provided great commentary on the miraculous, mystical, and mundane things that have taken place before our very eyes, in such a dramatic way.

But it's not over. With Chapter 13 we're brought back down to earth with a dismal thud. Someone does really die. Someone really is left behind to deal with it.

Vinod Taneja, living alone on the top floor has received very little attention from us. Has his life been, or is it too uninteresting to talk about? Because he doesn't have the charisma of Vishnu, Mr Jalal, or Short Ganga? I musn't forget Kavita. Nor Mrs Jalal. All of them, such personalities!

Wouldn't he, in fact, be a better candidate for EVERYMAN status than his more colorful neighbor?

The last week. How does the drama play out for you in the last chapters? Disappointed? Puzzled? Enlightened? Has the author succeeded at what he set out to do?

My Norwegian forest cat,Bibby Baby Booby Baben Butterball Freeman and I went to bed last night at 7:30, We woke up at 2, much to Bibb's disgust . She's my constant compantion and bedfellow, and tries to keep me in line. Pain wakes me, just as it sends me to bed. The pain medicine supply is dwindling, so SeniorNet and my books are what distract me and keep me from tearing my hair and thinking murderous thoughts right now, especially through the night.

Last July, before this discussion began I said in Post #103, "The Death of Vishnu is not really about death, nor is it about the god VISHNU. It is. as someone suggested, about people, all kinds of people, who believe various different things." Today, after putting some serious throut into this book I'll amend this to say that The Death of Vishnu is about India, the whole of India, as Manil Suri sees it.

It has become clear to me that the hopelessness of reincanation, living lives over and over, with no memory of the previous ones, and no possible way to see if you're doing the right thing to advance to another level or stop this terrible process, and a Caste System where you were, and some still are, locked into one level of society with no hope of ever advancing to another one, is the true India and the India Suri is trying to portray.

I have said that Jalal is exaggerated by this author. I believe now that all of the characters are exaggerated, even "normal" Taneja, who tries to immortalize his wife in the Guinness Book of World Records for memorizing the dialogue of a movie, even as she's dying and after she's dead, because it is her last wish

It has also occurred to me in these midnight musings that all of us, regardless of our station, go through a kind of reincarnation every time we wake up in the morning. No matter what we do in our lives, we all end up the same way, not able to take our glory, possessions, ignominy, whatever, with us when we inevitably die. In this country anyway, the illusion is great that we can make our cake, eat it, and take it with us, too. I wonder if there's any conscious recognition that we can't, on that morning when we don't wake up to another day's incarnation?

Mal

"Reincarnation, literally "to be made flesh again", as a doctrine or mystical belief, holds the notion that some essential part of a living being can survive death in some form, with its integrity partly or wholly retained, to be reborn in a new body. This part is often referred to as the Spirit or Soul, the 'Higher or True Self,' 'Divine Spark', 'I' or the 'Ego' (not to be confused with the ego as defined in psychology).

Belief in reincarnation is an ancient phenomenon; in various guises humans have believed in a future life since the ancient Egyptians, perhaps earlier, and ancient graves containing both people and possessions may testify to beliefs that a person would have need for their treasured possessions once again despite physical death.

Hinduism: The idea that the soul (of any living being - including animals, humans and plants) reincarnates is intricately linked to karma. Karma (literally: action) is the sum of one's actions, and the force that determines one's next reincarnation.

The cycle of death and rebirth, governed by karma is referred to as samsara. In some schools of Hinduism, the idea that stilling one's karmas (actions) and becoming at one, harmonious, with all would free one, ultimately, from reincarnation, became a central tenet. For Hinduism this state both exist and does not exist so that it may be likened to a dream-state, unreal in every sense. Thus from both perspectives, reincarnation cannot be likened to the re-appears of the spirit or person within a physical body which inhabits an objective physical world rather, the perception of the world alone exists as a manifestation around the conscious being, and this maintained as an act of mind only. To be trapped in Samasara then is to be held by ignorance of the true nature of being, in a self-created world of error. As such, this is really nothing other than a dream.

Many paths are offered toward this state of liberation or "heaven" and most are generally initiated by proposing this life to be "real". This of course means hat past-lives are also to be seen as real. However, significant progression on any such path soon causes the initial, every-day concept of "reality" to wither away. As unity with the god-head is approached, the essence of being is recalled with the result that the previously perceived "reality" vanishes as unity is achieved."

So how does reincarnation relate to the character Vinod:

"The month she died, Vinod felt his love for his wife had become so strong that a part, maybe all, of him would die with her. He wondered if he would want to live after Sheetal. What if he decided not to? How would he kill himself? He started appropriating some of the sleeping pills the doctor had prescribed for Sheetal...

...He felt he had already experience whatever there was to be experienced between a husband and a wife, that he had shared a part of himself with another person in a way too profound to be duplicated. There was a reason fate had brought him to this spot. It would be up to fate now to lead him somewhere else..." (p.235)

Perhaps, we have not talked about Vinod as much as the other characters is because of all of them, he is the one most of us can closely relate to. Some of us have lost loved ones and not only is it difficult to talk about it; there are times when we don't want to talk about it.

In the eastern religions death is discussed or at least thought about as being an essential part of life. As the above definition suggests reincarnation is part of the Hindu religion. But if Vinod believes in reincarnation he certainly has a strange way of showing it. He wonders if he would want to live after his wife's death. If he believes in reincarnation, why would he want to kill himself? Surely this action would not lead him on the path toward the state of liberation or heaven.

Once again I think the author exaggerates what the character does to show what not to do when we are placed in similar situations. Death is to be thought of as a part of life. Unfortantely, at least here in the west it is easier said than done.

Mal, that's a very thoughtful post, with the conclusions that you have come to regarding the book. It struck me, also, early on, how the author has managed to convey so much of India in the lives of a dozen or so characters.

There was a time when I would have agreed with you about seeing India defined in that image of 'the hopelessness of reincarnation'. That it left the believer prone to inaction rather than action. That it impeded a country's progress. If making, eating, and even taking the cake with you into another world seems the height of illusory dreaming, isn't it still preferable to having no conception of a cake at all? Not to mention a sense of futility.

Might not a belief in reincarnation have broader implications than just a personal destiny. Might it not contain the moral imperative to keep in mind each and every form of life around one. Leaving one with a greater respect for life generally. Consider the problem Vishnu has with ants. Once he killed them whenever they got in his way. As a god he lacks the power to destroy them. He wonders why, now thinking humanly. Has he forgotten that moment when he first started feeling divine, when suddenly the world around him was full of the screams of injured insects. Now, mounting the stairs, a man/god, he's working at cross purposes. We saw it again in Chapter 11, when god and avatar are at odds with each other. Can Suri be suggesting that God sometimes shakes his head over what his prophets and avatars do with their sense of mission. Exaggerating their role? Is he suggesting that we should not follow our wannabe leaders blindly?

The exaggerations and caricatures in the book do beg a lot of questions.

Dr. Walia, the Sikh from Bhopal who treated me at the Pain Management Center in Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania, certainly has hopeless feelings about the poverty in India.

Mal

The book struck me all along as being about India, ordinary people in India. These folks aren't rich, lower class I would say. Which is pretty good in India. The poverty in India must be overwhelming. I don't know how one gets something that depressing, that serious, that troublesome across.

One of India's more famous citizens is the Nobel Laureate, Amartya Sen, who studies the economics of poverty--it does not give a pretty picture.

Kleo

Well of course we've not been talking about Vinod, he's a character introduced late, who seems sort of out of the picture, it's confusing to find so much about him 3/4s of the way thru the book. It's hard to know where he fits in.

Vinod's life doesn't spark the attention like Mr. Jahal either. From the very beginning Mr. Jahal need to experience different religions drew my attention to him. Then, when he was drawn like a magnet to Vishnu, I couldn't think about suffering Vinod. Rapidly, Mr. Jahal's life began to take on all the drama.

Which character in the book is most important to the author? I suppose Vishnu because of the title. I don't know if the author sticks with his goal. I am beginning to lose sight of Vishnu.

Maybe I was wrong to focus so hard on Mr. Jahal. I just found him the most interesting character. Then, his being attacked by all the neighbors.

I think the idea of death is lost somewhere in the telling of the story. I think the story is about people and how they worship. Religious differences is still a huge problem in society. Religion is not binding people but separating people. Maybe the book is about the slow death of people who don't come to respect religious differences.

Why does Vinod Taneja's name mean "happiness?" I haven't finished the book yet.

Isn't there some irony there? His mother gave him a name meaning happiness. Who has lived with more sadness and sorrow than Vinod? Did Vishnu's mother choose wisely for her son? Be careful what you ask for, as the old saying has it.

There is a lot of poverty in India. There is a lot of wealth. Vinod is among the wealthy. He retired comfortably at 45. His story is a study of the sadness of one who has been affected by the death of someone near and dear. Even the most casual reader must feel some compassion for Vinod. The death of his wife Sheetal is so touchingly told, that one must become aware of something missing in the death of Vishnu. Does any reader really give a damn whether he lives or dies? But with Sheetal...well, who can't feel along with Vinod?

'When he was first told the seriousness of Sheetal's illness, Vinod was devastated.'

Thereafter, and soon, he sees his future crumbling. He feels resentment growing under the sorrow. He feels he has been unfairly treated by fate. His mind wanders, thinking of might-have-beens. He considers suicide. And it is only his wife's parting words about waiting for 'his turn', that stops him.

'He wondered if this was what had been ordained for him...if the stars had sealed the corridor to life for him?

He surrenders his 'existence to...self-indulgent rumination. Even considers a move to New York City.

By now I'm wondering if he will eventually find his way to the meaningful life that he misses. Why did the author add Vinod's story to Vishnu's? Maybe for spiritual relief, just as comic relief mitigates the tragedy in serious plays about life. I say 'relief', to mean something we can understand. Who can make sense of what we have seen so far?

Strangely enough, with Vinod, we have left religion behind. No talk of karma and reincarnation here. Just the human exerience that everyone can relate to.

Jonathan I have grabbed on to your last three sentences. Vinod does bring some relief from what is, at times, difficult to understand in this book. He is just an ordinary man dealing with what we must all face one day or have faced already. Maybe this is the whole meaning of his life or the one role Vinod plays in the book. Is Vinod a mirror of empathy and understanding?

Also, after reading your very moving post, I have to EAT my earlier words. These are my words."I think the idea of death is lost somewhere in the telling of the story." Vinod's grief keeps the theme going in one long thread. No way is death lost in the telling of the story. Vinod's grief is overwhelming. Although I meet Sheetal only through Vinod's eyes, I know her. Sheetal becomes visible because of Vinod's true love. Vinod's story is about the death of love and the pain left behind. If no tears fall for Vishnu, tears must flow for Vinod.

Vinod's state of mourning is more painful, to me, than the death of Vishnu. Does that make sense? Mr. Jahal's search for purpose in his life through looking at different religions also is painful for me. Again, I find Mr. Jahal's pain in life more wrenching than Vishnu's death.

Is Vishnu's death equal to the death of Sheetal?

"It is challenging to alter your perspective on the world to such a degree that you recognize all beings as having needs equal to your own. It becomes even more daunting when we try to put that belief into action by being consistently, impartially less selfish. We can learn to cherish and venerate each individual life and life-form by reflecting on how we are equal, all like God's children - children of truth. All beings - insects and snakes, fish and fowl, as well as humans - have the right to live and pursue happiness; none of us is the rightful arbiter of another's fate. Life is a gift." ~ Lama Surya Das

So wouldn't it be true that death is also equal. That the death of Vishnu is equal to the death of Sheetal? Yet their deaths are portrayed by the author as being different or are they?

Of course, any human being's death is important. All mankind serves a purpose.

No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind...John Donne

All mankind is equal. I am talking about from the way we are made to feel about the characters by the author's way of presenting the characters.

Why did Manil Suri decide to title the book "The Death of Vishnu?" I am beginning to think it is because Vishnu's death is the catalyst for so many other events that take place in that apartment building.

I understand everyone feeling sympathy for Vinod --- I certainly did. However, by the end of the book, I felt comfortable with the life he had chosen for himself.

“As time went by, Vinod found his anger spent. He felt a tranquility he could not remember having experienced before. He wondered about returning to the Swamiji, but was embarrassed to do so, in light of the abrupt way he had walked off almost three yeas ago. He suspected, though, that he might have attained what the Swamiji had challenged him about, so he did not think it crucial to return.” (page 262)

He is at peace. What other characters in the book can we say that about?

Also, recall that Vinod lives on the top floor of the apartment building. The author says in an interview on his website that “this apartment building --- each floor represents a different stage in life.”

Therefore, Vinod is in Sannyasa Ashrama, the fourth stage of Hindu life. From a web site posted earlier, we learned that “this is the final stage of life in which an individual mentally renounces all worldly ties, spends all of his or her time in meditation and contemplation and ponders over the mysteries of life.”

Consequently, I don’t leave the book feeling sympathy for Vinod, but felling happy that he has been able to achieve peace within himself.

P.S. I re-read this last section of the book and, once again, thought the book to be so clever! Looking forward to sharing a few more thoughts on the ending!

Laura, that's an excellent thought to choose as a P.S. I've found myself thinking that along the way.

It seems to me also that the book would get the approval of Dr. Johnson, the 18c man of letters, the moralist as well as a great critic of literature. The best piece of writing, he said, should be both entertaining and instructive.

The book was intended to entertain. IMO. If the reader has taken everything too seriously, he's told at the end that it has all been filmed as it happened. We've been on the movieset the whole time. But who could have missed all the humor along the way, light, droll, wry, and even black.

At the same time Suri has served up a lot of instruction in countless, subtle ways. The Indian atmosphere seems genuine. The gentle satire seems well chosen. It's a fairly good introduction to the culture and beliefs of Hinduism. The Hindi tales are carefully chosen so as to be worked into the plot. He has given the reader some insight into many issues, ranging from domestic relations to community prejudices and superstions, to the roots of political strife.

Can one take it seriously when Vishnu is overcome by feelings of guilt and shame, as he passes Mr Taneja's door? How touching. p 242. Hardly have we heard that, when we hear about Mr Jalal's eagerness to do penance, to suffer martyrdom! p 248. For the cause. After suffering along with Vinod, we can't help being surprised to hear the Swamiji tell him he should get over his anger!

Hats, I'm always delighted when I see John Donne quoted. Of course, the death of anyone affects us all. And who brooded about death more than Donne? Just as famous as the 'no man is an island' quote, is something like his 'Death, be not proud' sonnet. He preached great sermons. Very intelligent. The king loved them. Mr. Jalal could have studied them with great profit. But I don't think Donne ever tried preaching to a mob armed with lathis. That took courage.

Jonathan you are right."But I don't think Donne ever tried preaching to a mob armed with lathis." I am going to finish the book this morning. I feel like something dreadful is going to happen. I left Mr. Jahal hanging by a thread on the balcony.

Jonathan, I completely agree with your overall thoughts on the book in paragraphs three and four of your post #413. It’s the ”review” I would have written.

As mentioned earlier, I, at times, felt like I was reading a silly Bollywood movie. I kept wondering why an author as talented as Suri would let this happen --- why allow the reader to feel this way? As I read the first paragraph on page 276, the light bulb in my head went on and I laughed! Clever!

I also like how the book comes full circle, so to speak.

On page 290, the inspector, speaking to Mrs. Pathak, asks, “This Vishnu person --- is he the one lying dead on your steps?” “Dead” … “He was alive yesterday…Mrs. Asrani ventured.

And the bickering between the ladies starts again on page 291, just like the bickering at the opening of the book. I laughed again.

But then the more serious question, which we have raised in this forum, came to mind --- Did Vishnu’s death matter to these people? Did Vishnu’s life matter to these people? And then, extrapolating this idea out further --- How does any life affect the other lives around it?

Life really does go on, it seems…

That is the fix Mr Jalal has finally got himself into, with all his searching for the truth. Hanging in mid-air. Telling himself he is at 'the moment of truth.' His next leap of faith is to hurl himself up to reach the out-of-sight grill of Mr Taneja's balcony! It must be there. p264

Compare that to the comfortable mood Mr Taneja finds himself in. He sits on his balcony above Mr Jalal, basking in his meditation. The ashram visits have paid off. He hears the sea.

'Then he would close his eyes...he would wait for the calmness of the sound to descend. Soon the cells in his brain would begin to light up or switch off, to form the familiar pattern, and he would transcend the limitations of the finite, of the physical and the perishable, as he lost himself in the vibrations, as he lost himself in the vibrations, as he lost himself in the harmony and the eternal resonance of the beautiful sound OM.' p263

That certainly sounds preferable to hanging in space like Mr Jalal. But I don't entirely trust Professor Suri. Three times he uses the word 'lost' to describe Mr Taneja's condition. Well, at least he's comfortable.

The Swamaji has such soothing words.

'And there will come a day, when all attachment is relinquished, when there is no memory of desire, of hunger, of pain, and then, only then, will he know what true freedom is.' p257

But first one must sate oneself. First one must 'drink from the pool of selfish gratification until one is sure one will be thirsty no more. Until one realizes that the body and all its desires is just maya.' p257

Now it becomes clear why the author had Vishnu revelling in the pleasures of the flesh. Meant to be an object lesson for the rest of us. But we should remember that he too, on the way up, was beginning to tire of the excessive voluptuousness. He wonders 'why have the pleasures of Padmini's body faded to such a subdued fragrance in his memory?...He has lost his desire...A warm indifference spreads through him to the cravings of his body. He is not sated, no, yet he can partake no more.' p212

Ah, his mother's words:

'The sun will go down and the seas will die as Vishnu closes his eyes.'

'Sleep will engulf my Vishnu, as time comes to an end.'

For eons will he sleep on Ananta, regaining all his strength. Only opening his eyes when it is time to begin the cycle again.' p275

What a eulogy the author has written for that errand runner he remembers from his own childhood.

Whatever happened to Kavita? Have we passed that part where she dreams about escaping to Kula or Simla or Darjeeling, almost anywhere as long as it's away from Bombay? When she is disillusioned in the 'phut-phut' scene, when she gets the facts of life from the mother of three little children.

What a movie. Which scenes did you enjoy most?

1

"Vinod would watch the other followers rapt in the Swamiji's message. He himself was content just to be there, to be someone faceless in the crowd, surrounded by the tranquillity of the ashram. Swamijji's words floated in and out of his attention. He had heard this message so many times before - the maya, the illusion that was the medium of all existence, like an endless movie in which all their lives were embedded; the journey the soul was supposed to embark on, to break free of the constraints of maya, rising through gratification, through selflessness, to the final goal which all creatures lived and died again and again for.

And there will come a day, when all attachment is relinquished, when there is no memory of desire, of hunger, of pain, and then, only then, will he know what true freedom is." (p.257)

"Knowing truth is Buddha; expressing truth is Dharma; embodying truth and living truly is Sangha. In Buddhism, there is a rather unique word that translates as "suchness." It means vital, living truth itself, here and now, right before our very eyes - the "isness" of things exactly as they are. Arrive at that place that is free of craving, a totally open luminous expanse where nothing is wanting, and there you will experience the meaning of the Dozogchen teaching that says, "Leave everything as it is and rest your weary mind." The Buddha once said, "There is nirvanic peace in things left just as they are." That is the innermost secret refuge. If you can reach this place within yourself, then you don't have to do or undo anything. That's the ultimate refuge, the ultimate practice of letting go-the art of allowing things to be as they are. That is coming home in a spiritual sense." ~ Lama Surya Das

I think I can safely say that of all the characters the one who has reached his ultimate refuge is Vinod. He has finally found his nirvanic peace. But what of the other characters?

Is hanging by a thread like Mr. Jahal is doing finding anything? Or is it symbolic of not knowing in which direction to go in order to find his refuge and really leaving it up to gravity to make his decision for him?

Vishnu has also made it to the top of the stairs and so should be on his way to finding his ultimate refuge and yet he hesitates. Why?

Then there are the quarreling neighbors. They remind me of an old radio program I used to listen to called the Bickersons.

And what of the youngsters in this novel. They seem to be living in a make believe world without a clue of what they truly are looking for. What do you suppose will be their ultimate refuge? It seems to me that the movies themselves represent the characters' desire for false beauty instead of the inner beauty that the ultimate refuge would bring them.

Scrawler I am enjoying all of your posts. However, I only used Mr. Jahal "hanging by a thread" to show that is where I had left Mr. Jahal while doing my reading the past night or so. Now I have finished the book.

I am still thinking about Jonathan's last question. "What a movie. Which scenes did you enjoy most?"

Laura D I love the word you chose to describe the book and/or the ending of the book "clever." I truly enjoyed the book. It is totally different from anything I have read lately. I think Manil Suri used the talent of a filmmaker interweaved with the normal talents of a good writer to write this book. I am happy to have read it. There is a lot I am left to ponder for a long while. I do not see the characters as shallow.

Well, I do want to answer the question. I am coming back later. I need to think and get my thoughts together.

That is a most fascinating question. It seems to me that the moment of doubt has come for him, as he is about to pass through that final door. All the lively scenes we've been treated to have always had as a backdrop the great mystery of death, despite the claim that nothing dies. In fact, sometimes it seems that Hinduism, including Buddhism, is all about denying nothing. Like it doesn't exist.

Vishnu is described in the last scene of Chapter 14 as climbing the stairs with rising expectations. We see his mind full of the assembly of gods waiting for him just behind the door to the terrace, or rooftop. He already hears them cheering him on.

'Is that Shiva taking off his crown and polishing it on his sleeve? Brahma placing it on Vishnu's head and slapping him on the back?' p271

'And that tune he hears above the clapping and the dancing - could that be Krishna, playing his solitary flute somewhere?' p272

Add to that the prospect of seeing his beloved Lakshmi, his eternal consort: 'His everlasting love, his eternal other half, who gives him sustenance, without whom he is not complete.' p272

What glory awaits Vishnu! So why the hesitation? Suddenly the thought 'that stops him in midstep'

'What if he is dying...What if he is climbing not to immortality, but to nothingness?'

Despite our beliefs, the questions remains. For everyone. Christ, dying, groaned: My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?'

But everything does turn out happily for Vishnu, as we see. He does get to play with Krishna, as his mother promised him.

What a strange book. It's almost like the Naked City, remember that one, "there are a million stories in the naked city."

I finished it this morning at the crack of dawn and I must admit I find myself puzzled about a lot of things.

Vinod is a seeker too, just like Mr. Jalal, is his more pure? Less self centered? Just as isolated. Somewhat a stretch to have Mr. Jalal expect him to save him.

What took them so long to break thru the door? Even Mr. Jalal wonders.

Did Mr. Jalal actually beat his wife or were things as he told us in his mind?

I think Hats asked way back there, what is reality or maybe Scrawler did. I am wondering if any of this is real.

Was the only thing real the "cricket match" which was not watched?

If this were the Oscars, they'd give (what IS that with watching the movie about his life?) the Oscar to the actor whose part showed the most growth. Who is that, do you think?

And then we have the after thought of Kavita, thing is a mess.

But when you read a book on India or see a movie you are struck by the multiplicity of the people, each one diverse and rich, and maybe that's all he's saying: here's India, some are spiritual, some not, it's just the Our Town of India.

I really did not get any more meaning out of it than that?

Ginny, yes, it was Scrawler who posted about "reality." I didn't mention it.

"Who can doubt that an awareness of death is the greatest teacher for learning to live? For most of us, there is no greater fear than the fear of death. It's difficult to believe that an easy acceptance of the possibility of death can help put joy in the life you are living, but it can - and will. The Sufis say, "Die before you die, and you shall never die." What they mean is ego death. If you are able to let go of ego then you will not be afraid because you will no longer feel incomplete; you will not cling to the material world and conditioned existence, or samsara." ~ Lama Surya Das

There was a lot that I got out of this book when I compared it to what I've learned from Buddhism. But the most important thing that I've gotten from this book was to "think" about death. To think about death as being part of life. Here in this novel we have Vishnu literally dying on the stairway of an apartment building with all the other characters going up and down the stairs. How could they not think of "death"? Or for that matter since the reader is a part of this story, how can we not think about death.

I realize that in the Western culture "death" is not something we think about or even discuss. Most people shy away from discussing it the same way we tend not to discuss politics or religion. But if we only thought about death in terms in which it was not so frightening than perhaps we would be free to live our lives more fully. As autumn is just around the corner, we are also thoughtful that winter is also close at hand, but we also are aware that next comes spring and once more before we know it summer will be here once again. To me thinking about death is one theme that Manil Suri has attempted to bring to the forefront in his novel.

As autumn is just around the corner, we are also thoughtful that winter is also close at hand, but we also are aware that next comes spring and once more before we know it summer will be here once again. To me thinking about death is one theme that Manil Suri has attempted to bring to the forefront in his novel.

That's beautiful, Scrawler!

Thanks Hats!

It did seem like a long time for him. But then hanging by your fingernails from a balcony three floors up, might make a few seconds seem like an eternity.

Even so Mr Jalal takes the time to pass his life in review.

'Had he been inadequate as a husband and a father? Had he failed his son Salim? He supposed he could always lay the blame on his own relations with his father. That would be the traditional Freudian theory, wouldn't it...?' p267

This I find very interesting. Two pages later he is still thinking Freud. He tries to remember his reading of Freud's Interpretation of Dreams. Mr Jalal, of course, is still trying to make sense of his experience on the landing beside Vishnu. Was it a dream? So he is calling on Freud for an explanation in two very serious matters.

What do you say to that, Scrawler? You had such a good post in the McCourt discussion, commenting on McCourt's wish for a Freudian explanation in his own life. What a story he could tell, if only he had all of Freud's insights to help him. I don't know if Freud ever tried understanding the Irish. And I doubt if anyone with a Muslim or Hindu tradition could be helped by him. It seems a good talking point.

I'll be sorry to see the curtain come down on this discussion.

If Karma determines all, why do so many things happen by luck? It was luck that got Mr Jalal the vision. We got that straight from Vishnu in his divine form. In little Jeev's lives we get:

'It was bad luck, really, that brought Jeev tumbling down.' p250

This is when he went from being a brahman in one life, to being a monkey in the next! This could be considered heretical.

And when the low-caste sweeper is whipped for smiling on one above her:

'...here was where luck stepped in - who should be looking down that very instant, and hear the jamadarni's cry, but the king of heaven, Indra himself.' 'Of course, Indra didn't intervene - the king of heaven can hardly be expected to waste his time on such trivialities.' p251

This needed saying. I hope they're reading this book up in heaven!

It's not over even when it's over.

It's been a wonderful weekend in Bombay with all of you. It really was only a Saturday and Sunday when all this took place wasn't it?

And then the morning comes when there are no new posts. Well, it had to end. It was a lot of fun. Thank you all. I'm off to the seashore.

Thank you Jonathan, a Zen like Weekend in Bombay, complete with the ending of a life, all we needed was a baby to begin a new one but maybe we have another beginning anyway, as per the last line, a Super Summer Soufflé!

Many thanks, don't get WET!

Jonathan I would like to say thank you too. I enjoyed the book and the discussion. I gained much new knowledge about India. I will look forward to the next discussion with you as Discussion Leader.

I also would like to thank Ginny, Mal, Laura D, and all the other posters who brought along helpful links. Kleo thank you for breaking down Calculus, putting it in layman terms. Scrawler without a doubt your quotations made the book come more alive with meaning.

Thanks to all.

"Conditioned existence often means living a life of superficial habits and compulsions. To some extent, that's how most of us live. Controlled by our psychological patterns (our internal conditioning), we are hostages to unconscious drives, needs, and impulses. We stay in jobs we hate; we repetitively choose relationships that are hurtful. We don't know how to break change patterns that are misguided; we don't know how to find better, more creatively satisfying ways of being. That's unconscious behavior and that's conditioned existence.

Whether your unconscious behavior finds its source in something that occurred in your childhood, as Freud thought, or in something that happened lifetimes ago, as a Buddhist belief in rebirth suggests, the end result is the same. What you are doing isn't working. Dissatisfied is dissatisfied. Unconscious is unconscious. Is there really a distinction between psychological or spiritual distress? Psychology and Buddhism are two different traditions with a shared truth: As long as you stay unconscious, asleep at the switch of your own life, true happiness will prove elusive." ~ Lama Surya Das

"...There had been a distance he had felt from the start, removal from the day-to-day upbringing of his son. Why couldn't he have involved himself more? Learnt the names of Salim's friends, gone to a cricket and soccer games, sat with him when he did his homework, not let all the years go by? Why had he allowed aloofness to become the hallmark of their interaction? He supposed he could always lay the blame on his own relationship with his father. That would be the traditional Freudian theory, wouldn't it - a bit crude in this day and age, but surely still valid. There must have been so many other theories proposed over the years - but was there anything really startlingly new, anything that wasn't just a refinement of the original idea? Mr. Jahal resolved to try and keep better abreast of things."

"Mr. Jahal hung from the balcony and took stock of his parenting years." I'm not sure this was the best place or situation to make this decision which makes this more of a farce than one of a serious tone. But needless to say he did take stock of himself and resolved to do better. Whatever the reason Jahal had decided to make a change in his life. He became determined to stop living a life of superficial habits and compulsions and become a better parent. Do you suppose if he wasn't hanging from the balcony that this thought would have occurred to him? Is this what it takes for him to make such a change?

The sign of a good author. We have to remember that Jalal and all the others are puppets who only come to life when they are manipulated by their puppeteer, That puppeteer puts them in strange and often ludivrous, Keystone Kop situations; then figures out what to do then.

I can't let this discussion go by without mentioning Manil Suri's fine writing. He's a master of many styles. This is a superb first novel.

Nor can I leave here without mentioning one of my favorite scenes in the book. Remember when the children had an air war with empty oil cans and made a Kavita out of full Basmati rice cans?

And Sheetal and Vinod's wedding night?

It's quite a book, folks, and you know what? I don't think I'm through with it yet.

Thank you, JONATHAN, GINNY, and all who participated here.

Mal

I agree Mal. "This is a superb first novel." You are a talented published author. I can't take your words lightly. There are so many wonderful scenes and thoughts throughout the book. This is Mr. Jalal thoughts.

"Mr. Jalal was fascinated by Vishnu's current state. He felt there was something holy, something exalted, about being so close to death...He had tried many times to recapture the memory of that experience, to feel again what it meant to be able to look over the edge."

I have visited family members in the hospital, seen friends in nursing homes and left in awe of their dignity. They were already in a place or state of mind not experienced by me. Like Mr. Jalal, I was "looking over the edge." I didn't want to disturb their unconscious thoughts. I didn't want to make their journey my journey. I just knew their journey was admirably unique.

It is, I guess, like being in the presence of holiness. When a baby is born and I go and visit the baby and mother for the first time, I always find myself tiptoeing, taking gentler steps. Being in their presence is almost sacred, a time of exaltation.

The same happens when visiting the sick or terminally ill. I must walk quietly, pick up a hand with care. This is another time to look "over the edge," not causing any worldly disturbance.

Recently, I heard or read these words in this discussion, another discussion, on Seniornet, not on Seniornet, somewhere. The words are written by Shakespeare. The words are well known to many people. This book by Manil Suri seems to fit the quotation very well. Is this one of the themes Manil Suri wanted to leave us with?

All the world's a stage

Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.

Isn't it interesting??? Manil Suri left us with Vishnu in his "second childishness." I bet Manil Suri could repeat Shakespeare line and verse.

Jonathan you are missed. You always offer many words not to be forgotten in a discussion. I am sorry it took me so long to gather my thoughts. Don't worry. I didn't put Vishnu out of my mind. I do hope you are enjoying the beach, wiggle one toe in the water for me.

"This bardo refers to the process of dying itself. In Tibet, dying is seen as a process of purification, for we are returning to the clear light, to our intrinsic natural state of ground luminosity - dissolving in it. At the moment of death, this clear light of reality dawns for everyone. This is your own radiant nature, sometimes known as Rigpa - enlightened wakefulness." Lama Surya Das

I think this is the state in which many people see their loved ones when they are at the hospital or in this case we see Vishnu as he lies dying on the staircase. But the question I have is that although we see Vishnu physically dying and spiritually dying are there others who are in a state of "spiritual death"?

I have to agree with Mal in regards to Suri's writing. He balances his beautiful prose and spiritual insight with poignantly flawed characters as if they were spices in a stew pot. It is only at the end that we see how only a few irruptions of human weakness can bring the stew not only to a boil, but to overflowing.

Believe it or not, I am all talked out about this book!

I had a lot of fun reading and discussing it with you all. I learned something from each of you. Thanks for making this a great discussion.

Yes
You have come upon the fabled lands where myths
Go when they die.

~James Fenton,
"The Pitt Rivers Museum"

This book left me hanging just like Mr. Jahal was hanging off the balcony. I find myself wondering what happened to Salim and whether Mrs. Jahal will be alright. We really didn't talk much about Katvita but I do wonder whether or not she will get married like her mother wants her to do or whether she'll marry somebody she wants to marry.

"I was born here, but I had all three of them once I moved to Jhansi. One after another, phut-phut. You'll see." The girl giggled.

"Maybe we can sit together on the train - my husband doesn't like me to travel by myself."

Just then, Salim came back from the ticket station. "You look so motherly with them," he said, seeing Kavita with the baby in her lap and the boy clinging to her side.

First auntyhood, now motherhood. This was too much to bear for one night. "Here, you hold them," she said, thrusting the children at Salim." (pp.284-285)

I suspect that "reality" has finally burst Kavita's bubble. Did she see herself like this woman and her two children in a year or two?

Scrawler, I think Kavita thought just what you suggested; she saw herself as the women with the children and, that, along with what she perceived as Salim's cheapness, burst her bubble. There is mention that Kavita will not marry either boy. It is one line in the second to last chapter, I believe (book is in basement and I am on the second floor).

I think it took a lot of bravery for Kavita to decide what she wanted in life at that split second on the train. It seemed better for her to jump off the train and go back home without any long lasting mistakes being made.

One thing I don't remember we discussed was the Hindu wedding. "The Hindu wedding ceremonies are traditionally conducted in Sanskrit, the language in which most holy Hindu ceremonies are conducted. They have many rituals that have evolved since traditional times and differ in many ways from the modern western wedding ceremony and also among the regions and caste. The Hindus attach a lot of importance to weddings and the ceremonies are very colourful and extend for several days. By the Hindu Marriage Act of 1955 passed by the Union Parliament of India, for all legal purposes, all Hindus of any caste, creed or sect, Sikh, Buddhists and Jains are considered as Hindus for the sake of the Hindu marriage Act - and hence intermarry. By the Special Marriage Act, 1954, a Hindu can marry with a non-Hindu employing any ceremony provided certain legal conditions are fulfilled.

The pre-wedding ceremonies include engagement (involving vagdana or oral agreement and lagna-patra written declaration), and arrival of the marriage party at the brides residence, often in the form of a marriage procession. The post-marriage ceremonies involve welcoming the bride to her new home.

An important thing to note is that despite the fact that the modern Hinduism is based on the puja form of the worship of devas as enshrined in the Puranas, a Hindu marriage ceremony is essentially a Vedic yajna (a fire-sacrifice), in which the Aryan deities are invoked in the archaic Indo-Aryan style. The primary witness of a Hindu marriage is the fire-deity (or the Sacred Fire) Agni, and by law and by tradition, no Hindu marriage is deemed complete unless in the presence of the Sacred Fire, seven encirclements have been made around it by the bride and the groom together."