Disgrace ~ J. M. Coetzee ~ 9/03 ~ Fiction
jane
July 26, 2003 - 12:00 pm






Book Description
Disgrace--set in post--apartheid Cape Town and on a remote farm in the Eastern Cape--is deft, lean, quiet, and brutal.(From the Publishers)

A heartbreaking novel about a man and his daughter, Disgrace is a portrait of the new South Africa that is ultimately about grace and love.......N.Y.Times Book Review

Middle-aged professor David Lurie shuffles numbly through the shifting landscape of postapartheid South Africa. After he gets fired for sleeping with one of his students--and refusing to express remorse--Lurie finds shelter with his grown daughter and is exposed to a social reality that threatens more than his own sense of security. .... Library Journal

Winner of the Booker Prize, Coetzee's eighth novel employs spare, compelling prose to explore subtly the stuttering steps one man takes in a new world. ...LJ 12/99

"J.M. Coetzee's new novel "Disgrace," which last week won the South Afrian writer his second Booker Prize is an absolute page-turner. It is also profound, rich and remarkable ... is destined to be a classic." New York Post, November, 7 1999

“A subtly brilliant commentary on the nature and balance of power in his homeland... by a writer at the top of his form.” ...Time


Interesting links:

Biography of Coetzee

Review by John Mullan , senior lecturer in English at University College, London

Great photos of South Africa


READING SCHEDULE
  • Sept.   1 - Chapters   1 -   6
  • Sept.   8 - Chapters   7 - 12
  • Sept. 15 - Chapters 13 - 18
  • Sept. 22 - Chapters 19 - end








Discussion Leaders:
Lorrie & Traude


B&N Bookstore | Books Main Page | Suggest a Book/Discussion


Lorrie
July 26, 2003 - 03:21 pm
Hi, there! Are any of you readers interested in discussing this fine book, by prize-winning author J.M. Coetzee? This is set in South Africa in the post-apartheid era, and is about attempting to cope with a physical and emotional fallout, where the protagonist reevaluates himself as a father, a man and a human being. A short, well-written, powerful book.

We are trying to get up a quorum for this discussion, Traude and I. If you feel you would like to join us, please post your intent here. Scheduled to begin September 1.

Available now in paperback.

Lorrie

Hats
July 26, 2003 - 05:08 pm
Hi Lorrie and Traude. I would like to join in the discussion with you and Traude. I think this book would be very interesting.

Lorrie
July 26, 2003 - 07:24 pm
Good for you, Hats! We will be looking forward to seeing your name in the discussion, if it is a go.

Lorrie

kiwi lady
July 26, 2003 - 10:12 pm
I would like to join this discussion - we have plenty of copies at the Library - I am going to read it now and then order it again later for the discussion.

Carolyn

Lorrie
July 27, 2003 - 08:38 am
Carolyn, that's wonderful! I am always so glad to see you join in our discussions. One more name and we will have our quorum!!!

Lorrie

Traude S
July 27, 2003 - 12:18 pm
HATS and CAROLYN,



welcome aboard! How wonderful that you will be with us!

D. is an intriguing, enlightening (*) book which will not disappoint you, I confidently predict. I know whereof I speak : The book was discussed last year in our live local afternoon book group, but time was simply too short. It did not help that a second (!) book was also on the agenda for that same meeting!...



(*) 'enlightening' because in this country we are familiar only, it seems, with the large events, the big names, like Nelson Mandela and his white adversaries. Now DISGRACE gives us the personal story, the reaction of an ordinary man through political upheaval and social unrest, how he is affected and what he does, half-dazed.

annafair
July 29, 2003 - 02:39 pm
Sorry I wanted to say and the baby makes three but felt perhaps that was TOO much...it sounds interesting and I will check out the library and B&N ..I prefer my own book...so I dont have to worry about being late....it sounds like a good book with lots to discuss...back later..anna

Lorrie
July 29, 2003 - 03:45 pm
And that makes a quorum!! Wonderful, AnnaFair! Now Traude and I can get some more additions to the heading, and look up some more research aboout this prolific writer.

Please keep posting here, we will be exchanging information from time to time before September 1, and we are still looking for new names to come and join us!

Lorrie

Lorrie
July 30, 2003 - 09:40 am
We have Hats, Carolyn, AnnaFair dommitted so far, and Dolphina, are you still with us? Looking good, y'all!

Lorrie

annafair
July 30, 2003 - 09:50 am
I am not sure when it will arrive since B&N emailed me there was a problem ...but hopefully in time to discuss....anna

Hats
July 30, 2003 - 11:22 am
Lorrie,

I am going to start reading the links. The header looks very interesting. Like Anna, I ordered my book. It will come soon, I hope.

Lorrie
July 30, 2003 - 11:50 am
Well, just to let you know that you are not alone, I, too have this book on order. Before this, I was peeking into a neighbor's friend's copy, but only to get a feel for the book.

Let's all hope that our books arrive with some time to spare, wouldn't it be awful if we started a discussion without the book? Talk about egg on faces!

Lorrie

annafair
July 30, 2003 - 12:35 pm
If you ordered from B&N I can see what the problem is...everyone is ordering a book that is not in stock...now if you both ordered from them and remove your request I WOULD MOST LIKELY GET MINE LOL sorry I have an absurd sense of humor...Lorrie we could call it THE BOOK DISCUSSION WHO NEVER WAS!!!!!!!!! anna

kiwi lady
July 30, 2003 - 12:48 pm
Gosh what a good group we have here! Hats I think you and I will really like the book and it will make a very good discussion for all of us! I am sure there are some others who will join us too.

Carolyn

Hats
July 30, 2003 - 02:00 pm
Hi Carolyn, I am sure we will enjoy and learn a lot from this discussion. I am on pins and needles. I did not order from Barnes and Noble. I feel sure my book will arrive on time. I am not worried. I will be here no matter what, come rain or come shine. I think that's a song.

Lorrie
July 30, 2003 - 02:19 pm
AnnaFair: I didn't order from B&N either, so that's two less you have to worry about. Hahahaha

I think my partner Traud has already read the book, if I'm not mistaken. We will have to wait and see the format before we can work out a reading schedule.

Yes, i agree, this looks like a really congenial bunch. I'm so glad because sometimes a discussion can get somewhat stilted and formal.

While we're waiting for our books, let's talk a little bit about the post-apartheid South Africa that this author is writing about. I've been trying to find some material relating to the huge "forgiveness" program they had there not too long ago, but so far I haven't seen much. Will get back to you later on this.

Lorrie

Lorrie
July 30, 2003 - 02:43 pm
I found this really interesting article written by an African woman regarding the different aspects of the Truth/Reconciliation Commission:

Pumla Gobodo-Madikizela served on the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa. She is currently the Jean and Joseph Sullivan Peace Fellow at the Bunting Institute at Radclifffe College

ESSAY

Hats
July 30, 2003 - 02:47 pm
My knowledge about post apartheid South Africa is slim. I do remember Nelson Mandela's release from prison. After Mr. Mandela's release, I wanted to think that apartheid problems would be solved quickly. Foolish thought. After the Civil Rights Movement, problems were not solved quickly in the United States. After Ghandi's movement, problems were not solved quickly either. All change comes gradually and slowly.

Lorrie, thank you for THE ESSAY.

Lorrie
July 30, 2003 - 03:10 pm
Yes, Hats, and even now the Reconciliation part of that Commission is still uneven, according to many people. These changes do not come easily, or quickly.

Lorrie

annafair
July 30, 2003 - 05:53 pm
B&N just notified me my book will be MAILED on Sept 2 ...I just hope it will arrive in time for me to understand the posts and be able to share mine....Where do you order your books? Perhaps I should use the same place.....I am looking forward to this discussion. We have such a great group that will be sharing...and that makes it special...anna

Traude S
July 30, 2003 - 06:25 pm
WELCOME All!

Yes, I have read the book and am re-reading it now for the discussion. Coetzee has written other books with South Africa as focus, but Disgrace is the first narration about post-apartheid conditions.

On July 27 the NYT carried an interesting article by Lydia Polgreen, which I clipped, titled "For Mixed-Race South Africans, Equity is Elusive". The article is important IMHO; perhaps one of our wonderful techies could put in a link here. In essence the article states that in the ten yars after Nelson Mandela became the country's first black president, little has changed, and that people in all racial groups have felt the shocks and pangs of South Africa's slow and painful progress from authoritarian, racist rule to multicultural democracy.

It would be helpful to our understanding IMHO if we could take a brief look at the history of the country to see how all of this developed and how much suffering was involved.

kiwi lady
July 30, 2003 - 06:58 pm
The sad thing about majority rule was that people deserted South Africa and after taking all the best out of it for many years left and took their money. My daughter Vanessa spent 3mths in Africa and some time in South Africa. She was appalled by the poverty. I think unemployment is really bad. Its going to take time for S Africa to educate the black population to become business people etc. The black population had a very inferior education to that of the whites. We have many South Africans living in Auckland. It is sad to say that even the nicest of them still are very prejudiced about Black South Africans. There is a lot of hatred still.

Vanessa says that the people want to work and they do things like make coat hangers and sell them at the traffic lights. She believed there is no welfare system as such. It saddened her on her visit although the beauty of the country delighted her. My cousin was briefly married to a wealthy South African girl and could not adapt to the lifestyle. They lived in a wing of the parents house and my cousin was always in trouble with his FIL because he fraternised with the servants. For instance he was bawled out one day for taking off his shirt and helping the gardener out. I guess there is much for both communities to get used to. I do admire Nelson Mandela very much and I think if I was him I would be consumed with hatred not trying to be a vehicle of reconciliation. I think some of the crime is retaliation for the inhuman way the blacks were treated for generations. I give you an example. A workmate of mine went to SA to stay with her son and DIL. Her DILs car broke down - a black youth was passing on the footpath and her DIL called out. "Boy come here and push this car" My friend was horrified and it upset her very much. The boy pushed the car and did not even get a thank you. The help was demanded.

Carolyn

Hats
July 31, 2003 - 12:21 am
I have been reading about Post Apartheid South Africa on the internet. On one site, there is very good information and reviews from and about a book written by ASHWIN DESAI. The title of the book is WE ARE THE POORS.The website is www.monthlyreview.org/we are the poors.htm.

Here is the quote.

"When Nelson Mandela was elected president of South Africa in 1994, freedom-loving people around the world hailed a victory over racial domination. The end of apartheid did not change the basic conditions of the oppressed majority, however. Material inequality has deepened and new forms of solidarity and resistance have emerged in communities that have forged new and dynamic political identities."

This quote, I think, is in agreement with Traude's article which states that "equality is elusive."

Carolyn, reading about your daughter's personal trip to South Africa is very interesting and informative. I have never been out of America. It seems she witnessed the desperate poverty too. Then, there is the beauty of the country.

Lorrie, what impresses me in your article is the fact that the victims find it easy to forgive while the perpetrators find it harder to overcome their hatred. Isn't that ironic? I am going to reread The Essay and post it in Favorites.

Traude, I hope we do get a chance to learn about the history of South Africa.

Carolyn, I also think the quote agrees with your daughter's personal experience in South Africa. She witnessed the horrible poverty.

Lorrie
July 31, 2003 - 08:42 am
These are all very interesting posts, especially that one about your daughter, Carolyn. I am hoping that it will give us an insight into what sort of country it was that the protagonist of our story lived in, and whether it has any bearing at all on the plot.

It's good to see the enthusiasm here.

Lorrie

dolphina
July 31, 2003 - 12:13 pm
guess what .. I had this out from the library and cant remember if i read it or not.. get too many books and dont have the best memory

at times..

so.. cant discuss it.. till i look at it again.. later..

know it did appeal to me greatly

Dolphina.. tks for the invite tho ill be back

is there a forum for self-help books here

jane
July 31, 2003 - 05:12 pm
Dolphina: We tried such a discussion on self-help books in Oct. 2001. There was very little interest in it and it's now in the Archives where you're certainly welcome to read the posts and books that were discussed.

Ginny "How-To/ Self Help/ Interest Books ~ 10/01" 10/10/01 2:07pm

Lorrie
July 31, 2003 - 07:30 pm
Hi, Dolphina! Maybe on sept. 1 you will have remembered whether you have read this book. Either way you are welcome to come and join us.

Lorrie

Anna, don't worry about your book coming later. Remember this is a month-long discussion, there will be plenty of time for you to catch up.

dolphina
August 1, 2003 - 04:14 am
have to tell you ill be away shortly so it wont work but when i have time ill be back here to look over the site more..ok

ps.. thats too bad.. i guess in Alternative Meds.. have many wonderful self help books

ie. Dr. Bernie Siegels books and others.. must see if there is a site for mediation tapes too I also like books on nature.. people who maybe go looking for animals and live outdoors with them but love a good mystery.. too so many books.

wonder if Stephen King is well read at this site.. what a mind he has ... wow.

have a good day there..

dolphy.. im usually away at weekend it is our long one up here now.

kiwi lady
August 1, 2003 - 10:59 am
Guys I have speed read this book and its brutal! I am not sure if I can stick with it as a discussion. I will try! It is full of very painful issues.

Hats
August 1, 2003 - 11:23 am
I received my book yesterday. I have not looked inside yet. I had a feeling the story would be chilling and memorable.

annafair
August 1, 2003 - 02:55 pm
I havent read the book and hope it arrives in time ..over the years I have found books based on truth are often brutal..For me I cant read too many in a row because often truth cuts deep and wont let us forget. I think I have a fantasy that life was simpler and nicer when I was young. Today with instant news we know how cruel humans can be...and it disturbs me to know it has always been this way.

Still it will never change unless we are willing to read and discuss so the truth is never forgotten ...that has always been the way I feel so I am ready to read the book and discuss the things inside.

anna

Lorrie
August 1, 2003 - 03:48 pm
Well, Anna, I will never cease to be surprised at how wrong we can all be in our assesments sometimes of other people, right? For instance, you would be the last one I would think who would not let a book's contents deter you from reading it, because somehow I picture you as a more timid person than myself, for instance. Thank you for being so brave about it.

Carolyn, I have learned in the past that even brutality in books is all a matter of how it is described, and I have faith in the style of Coetzee's writing that it won't be too offensive. The fact that this author won the prestigious Booker prize for this book cannot be ignored. Brutality, for that matter, can even be found in the Bible.

Please stay with us, if you can. But we do thank you for the heads up, and if anyone feels like leaving this reading circle, I will understand completely.

Still with us, Hats?

Lorrie

Hats
August 1, 2003 - 05:31 pm
Lorrie, I am still here. Anna made a wise statement. I will remember it while reading the book. I have not begun to read yet.

kiwi lady
August 1, 2003 - 09:00 pm
The book contains - abuse of power, rape, and animal euthanasia. It is a hard lot of issues.

annafair
August 2, 2003 - 07:46 am
Sounds like a TV newcast......there are days when I wish I lived somewhere without TV, magazines, newspapers etc. As a young person I pictured the world as a place where mostly goodness occured and rape, murder, persecution because of color, sex or race were anomalies were the exception not the rule.

A poet friend of mine once wrote a poem about the power of one....we all can be that one. When enough ones know the truth about something then we can demand change. Maybe the first time change wont come but eventually it will and I have lived long enough to see that is true. The sad thing is there is always some new cruelty to uncover...which is why ones are so important. We can be those ones. anna

MalrynF
August 2, 2003 - 08:29 am

LORRIE and TRAUDE, I have ordered this book, and will be joining the discussion in September.

Mal

Traude S
August 2, 2003 - 10:05 am
CAROLYN, ANNAFAIR, HATS- LORRIE of course L

I have given much thought to your recent posts and thank you for them.

ANNAFAIR, I don't think I've had the pleasure of meeting you in a discussion, but I know of your presence in other folders. CAROLYN and HATS are old discussion friends, "old" having nothing to do with age <g>.

This may be a good time to talk about what we are about in our discussions.



The discussion leaders, all volunteers, prepare meticulously, lovingly, and ahead of time for the respective discussions, aided by dedicated techies for setting up the header.



The respective book becomes their baby, the discussion their labor of love. Some DLs prefer a long pre-discussion; some opt for a shorter one, some announce the date and start right then and there. In each and every case the DLs' investment in dedication and time is considerable, requires daily input and continues for a whole month. From my own personal experience I can say that it is a huge responsibility not to be taken on lightly, and most certainly NOT as easy as it may look.

CAROLYN,

Murder, violence - domestic and otherwise -, abductions, kidnapping, carjacking, harassment of every kind, and God knows what else perverted minds will come up with next : Those are the realities we live with, unfortunately, so is it any wonder they are reflected in recent literature? ------- to wit, among others,

The Lovely Bones by Alice Sebold (rape), The Little Friend (murder of a minor, never solved), The Kiss by Katherine Harrison (incest). And what about the abominable practice of "putting down" perfectly healthy Greyhounds when they are no longer profitable racers?

I am half way through re-reading Disgrace with a new awareness. IMHO the book itself is not "brutal", it is brutally honest beginning with chapter One, but otherwise rather restrained.

Thank you for not giving up before we even started!

Hats
August 2, 2003 - 11:57 am
I have begun to read the book, Disgrace. Poetry is mentioned in the midst of all the ugliness.Lord Byron and William Wordsworth are mentioned.I am glad Anna is here so we will not miss the beautiful poetry. I think The Prelude by William Wordsworth is mentioned.

All of this makes me think and rethink that life is never one thing or the other. At one moment we experience beauty. At other times we experience the ugliness of life. Our life experiences switch back and forth.

I have only read two chapters. Already, I find the book hard to put down.

kiwi lady
August 2, 2003 - 12:37 pm
I guess that I am feeling it- as I perceive the world as such a very violent place at the moment. I have never lived in a time where there is so much conflict and ugliness all at once. I suppose I feel like I need some escapism at the moment!

Lorrie
August 2, 2003 - 12:54 pm
Traude, a very thoughtful post, indeed.

Hats, trust you to find just the right note of wonderment, asking to compare our switching life's experiences-----beauty on one side, ugliness on the other.

Carolyn: These particular days it is understandable how discouraged and disillusioned we all can become; all one has to do is pick up a newspaper. But life is not meant to be a series of unhappy experiences, God Forbid! One of the things i found that makes each day more bearable is the sense of solidarity and shared awareness of these discussion groups. This one, for instance, will be especially pleasurable because this group has such diverse ways of looking at things. Interesting, indeed, and it will be more so to hear each one of your reactions.

Lorrie

Hats
August 2, 2003 - 01:15 pm
Kiwi, after reading the second link in the heading, there is a reason, other than beauty's sake, why Coetzee used poetry in this book. The professor does seem to manipulate it for his own motivations and reasons.

Hats
August 2, 2003 - 01:17 pm
I think it's called looking for the "silver lining."

kiwi lady
August 2, 2003 - 05:27 pm
Hats there is a lot more to think about as I mull over the plot in my mind and will speak about it when we begin discussing the book for real. Eventually there has actually in a way become a form of redemption for the main character but he has to suffer his pain too on the way. Thats all I will say for now kids!

Lorrie
August 2, 2003 - 10:29 pm
Good news! I just received an email from another one of our readers, "Horselover" who will probably with us when we begin this discussion. I think some of you will remember her fondly from other discussions. That makes a wonderful group now!

Lorrie

Traude S
August 3, 2003 - 08:51 am
HELLO and WELCOME, Horselover! It will be great to have you with us!

Just wanted to say that I finished me second reading of the book last night and came away with a slightly different view, but this is not the time to explain why, yet!

Lorrie
August 4, 2003 - 09:00 pm
Hi, Everybody! Please take a look at our new heading up above, and you might note also that we have now moved from the "proposed" category over to the coming discussions on the listings on this page.

The schedule above is tentative. We will stick with it until we find that it is no longer feasible, or too confining. I will have a group of questions, also, that we will post up there later.

My copy finally arrived, and I've been just skimming over a few parts, and it looks like a very good story! I sort of like to read as we go along, I have found that knowing what's ahead spoils the suspense, in a way. Yet some people prefer to read the book through once, and then go back and reread it along with the posters in a more leisurely manner. To each his own.

Before we begin, and while we are in this pre-discussion phase, I think it would be a good idea to talk about the political climate in South Africa at the time setting of this book, and I am going to ask one of our posters from New Zealand, Carolyn, if she can tell us any impressions her daughter got while in SA. Carolyn, what was your daughter's feeling about the general attitude of the African people now?

Lorrie

kiwi lady
August 4, 2003 - 10:18 pm
Vanessa felt there was still a very long way to go in reconciliation. The Black community for the most part still live in abject poverty. She felt that if the Govt did not get the economy going in full swing people would get tired of waiting for something to happen. The sad part is that many whites have deserted South Africa and this has meant lots of loss of jobs and a lot of money taken out of the community. There is a lot of vicious crime but there must be so much anger and frustration locked up there and some people must want to take revenge. I am not condoning this action but I do understand it to a certain degree. The white SA Vanessa found are still very condescending to the Blacks and still treat them like children. (Colonial Paternalism). Vanessa also went to Kenya and felt there was still the colonial attitude there. She got up to help the maid clear table and do the dishes and was told in no uncertain terms to sit down. The arrogance that my forebears had when they were building their Empire! ( I am of English descent on both sides of my family - my father came here after the war and I am a fifth generation NZer on my mothers side. )

Hats
August 5, 2003 - 05:54 am
The heading looks very, very interesting and inviting. There is so much to study before the discussion begins. Kiwi, thanks for giving your daughter's personal experiences in South Africa. I am familiar with Blacks being treated as children by the white population. This is one of the repercussions of American Slavery. I am also distantly aware of the fact that the same attitude is displayed towards Blacks in SA. What I am not familiar with is the term Colonial Paternalism. I will learn so much in this discussion. I am anxious to tour the map in the heading too. Anyway, on the days I am not posting, I will be quietly taking in all of this wonderful new knowledge. Thanks again, Kiwi, thank you Lorrie and Traude for all of your hard work which has already begun.

Lorrie
August 5, 2003 - 09:36 am
Carolyn, thank you so much for your daughter's impression of the present-day situation in South Africa. I have a feeling that this will be an important factor in our discussion.

I also meant to ask our co-leader here, Traude, if she can find some relevant links for us dealing with the subject of English poets, namely Byron, about whom our protagonist in this story was so enamored. I am sure her knowledge of this particular man exceeds mine, to say the least. What say you, Traude, can you fill us in on this man's poetry, so that perhaps we can understand the character's fascination?

Hats, isn't "colonial paternalism" a sort of "Father Knows Best" thing?

Lorrie

kiwi lady
August 5, 2003 - 03:05 pm
Yes Lorrie

Ruth and I had an interesting discussion last night about the non achievement of many Maori in today's society. Her father was a teacher and sat calmly down one day and told her the Maori children in his class would never amount to anything and Ruth said because of his attitude they never would. This is a common attitude of assuming that indigenous peoples or brown or black people have an inferior intelligence - of course this is hogwash. This attitude I think created the paternalist attitude taken by the British authorities in the outposts of the British Empire. I can only speak for the British Empire I know nothing about other colonial powers and attitudes. I think the Boers in South Africa embraced this philosophy even more so. Ruth was telling me also last night about a pilot scheme in one of the Decile 1 schools. Schools are rated on a scale of 1-9 . 9 means the children come from a wealthy background and 1 is from very poor socio economic background. In this Decile 1 school kids were constantly told they could do anything and they could attain anything. The school ran on this philosophy - the results were miraculous. Even though the resources were poor in the school the childrens abilities began to soar. This is food for thought. A bit like Sports Psychology.

Carolyn

Lorrie
August 5, 2003 - 04:01 pm
Carolyn: Your post filled me first, with exasperation at the insufferable attitude of some of the teachers, like the one you mentioned, who was so sure that the Maori children in his class would never amount to anything, then secondly, with admiration that someone had the intelligence to realize how important self-esteem and motivation are to the students in the Decile 1 school. Talk about optimistic pumping up! And it works!

A very interesting post, thank you Carolyn.

Lorrie

Lorrie
August 5, 2003 - 08:45 pm
Two days ago I butted into the geographical page of Africa on our SeniorNet index, and invited any or all of the participants there to come and join us, since some of them are right from South Africa. One of the respondents posted back that although she will not have time to read the book she would be happy to look in here from time to time and perhaps make a comment, before we get into the actual plot of the book.

Malryn (Mal)
August 5, 2003 - 09:48 pm
I will not be participating in this discussion. I'm sure it will be a stimulating one.

Mal

Lorrie
August 6, 2003 - 12:47 pm
Mal, i am sorry to read that you are not going to join us. Yes, it should be stimulating.

There was a provocative piece written by Walter Williams in the Capitalism Magazine in 2001 about South Africa after apartheid. This is the summary: "Summary: Loads of Americans, from civil-rights organizations and college students to politicians, were involved in the anti-apartheid movement. One wonders how much they care about what happens in South Africa after apartheid. I've always argued that getting rid of apartheid wasn't nearly as important as deciding what was going to replace it. There are things worse than apartheid."

Some statements there worth looking into.

Lorrie

Hats
August 6, 2003 - 12:56 pm
Hi Lorrie,

The above statement makes me think of the removal of slavery. It was very important to rid the U.S. of slavery. It was also important to know what would happen during Reconstruction.

The same situation exists with Iraq. Saddam Hussein is gone from power. What happens to the people after the downfall of their government?

There are many steps, I think, to the removal of oppressive governments and their laws.

Lorrie
August 6, 2003 - 01:12 pm
hats, you are absolutely right! It's not often the a great deal of planning is gone into as far as rebuilding, rehabilitating, and sometimes re-brainwashing for these countries who have suffered a dramaic change of government. A very good example of the right way to do it could be with the way the United States insituted the Marshall Plan after WW11. There has been much praise for this system.

Lorrie

Lorrie
August 6, 2003 - 01:31 pm
Wow! I just discovered some more good reading on South Africa, this one right from the mouths of participants in that changing country.

CHILDREN OF APARTHEID

In one of the links on this site is a segment under "Various Interviews" there is a marvelous speech made my Nelson Mandela on his first day in court many years ago, titled "I AM PREPARED TO DIE." A fascinating read!

Lorrie

kiwi lady
August 6, 2003 - 03:52 pm
Personally Lorrie there is not too much that to me was worse than apartheid and the deaths that occurred in police custody. At least now any problems can be blamed fair and square on politicians that the people have elected! The African people are learning to use their hard won majority rule- for instance the fight at the moment to get appropriate treatment for those who are HIV postive. Many New Zealanders fought for the abolition of apartheid and showed support for the people of SA by violent demonstrations during a Rugby Tour by the Springboks. Think it was 1985. NZer fought Nzer and people went to jail and people were injured. It was a time not forgotten. The nation was divided right along the middle. Those who were rugby fanatics and those who thought we should not be fraternising with a white South African Rugby team thus upholding apartheid. The pain of those days still lingers with those who were involved as it was father against son and the differences became very bitter. I saw a documentary about the demonstrations recently and it was very very violent.

Carolyn

Hats
August 6, 2003 - 11:46 pm
This is why all parts of the pie are important. Apartheid was a horrible system, much like a sore. With a sore, you have to remove the gangrene or whatever, and then, move on to bandage and cleanse the sore.

In the same way, there are so many steps to rid the world of a poison such as Apartheid. That's why it's better if these horrid systems never come into existence. Once the evil exists, it's very hard to remove.

I think of Apartheid as a box. People were put into this tiny box called Apartheid to live out their lives. Other people went on with their lives outside of the box, free to enjoy every possible freedom: education, work and careers, entertainment, etc.

The people in the box never had a chance to enjoy these freedoms. They were locked in the box, told when to get in and out of the box. They were told how far to step from the box. No one wants to live in a box. You can only smother in a box. Before people will smother, they will fight to free themselves. The choice of how to fight is up to them.

kiwi lady
August 7, 2003 - 12:03 am
I just remembered it was 1981 we had the big demonstrations. I believe from what I am told the South African blacks remember we demonstrated for them and there is goodwill toward NZ. The organisation who coordinated the demonstrations was HART. Halt all racist tours. I do believe the isolation SA found themselves in did help to bring about majority rule.

Carolyn

Hats
August 7, 2003 - 12:04 am
This is why all parts of the pie are important. Apartheid was a horrible system, much like a sore. For example, you have to remove the gangrene or whatever, and then, move on to bandage and cleanse the sore. In the same way, there are so many steps to rid the world of a poison. That's why it's better if these horrid systems never come into existence.

I think of Apartheid as a box. People were put into this tiny box to live out their lives. Other people went on with their lives outside of the box, free to enjoy every possible freedom: education, work and careers, entertainment, etc.

The people in the box never had a chance to enjoy these freedom. They were locked in the box, told when to get in and out of the box. They were told how far to step from the box. No one wants to live in a box. You can only smother in a box. Before people will smother, they will fight to free themselves. The choice of how to fight is up to them.

Lorrie
August 7, 2003 - 08:38 am
Carolyn, I do believe I remember reading about those outbursts. We should also remember that such demonstrations against discrimination were not as frequent then as now, and I feel that the empathy that New Zealand felt for the long-suffering blacks under apartheid probably, at that time, was not shared by too many other countries.

Lorrie

Lorrie
August 7, 2003 - 11:16 am
In our story, the professor has an attachment to the writings of Lord Byron, and plans to do some work in this regard. Our co-leader here, Traude, has found some excellent links referring to this poet's private life, particlarly the romance with an Italian beauty.

Well done, Traude! Here are the links:

ABOUT LORD BYRON

NEUROTIC POETS Love this title!

PICTURE OF THE LOVELY TERESA

Hats
August 7, 2003 - 11:57 am
Thank you Lorrie and Traude for the links.

Traude S
August 7, 2003 - 12:54 pm
Hello all! Good to see you, thank you.

The political isolation of South Africa to which KiwiLady referred had unforeseen, life-changing consequences for many innocent unknown individuals. Some became famous (or infamous), though ...

You may remember that South Africa was barred from participation in the 1984 Summer Olympics because of its rigid apartheid stance. But one young talented South African runner DID participate : she ran for Great Britain. She was encouraged by her father, contracted by the Daily Mail and issued a British passport. She became an immediate running sensation = she ran barefoot and she was as fast as defending world champion, American Mary Decker.

In the 3,000 meter final, in Los Angeles on August 10, 1984, Mary Decker and Zola Budd collided on the fifth lap, twice. The first time both were able to keep their balance. The second time, a few strides later, Mary Decker hit Zola's right bare heel with her spike and fell.

Budd continued and was jeered. She finished seventh. She was disqualified, then reinstated, but the damage was done. She was the villain, never able to shake the Decker controversy or the political protests. She returned to South Africa in 1988, married Mike Pieterse in 1989 and lives on her parents' farm with her motherm, husband and three children. She still runs 10-15 miles a day, apparently no longer barefoot.

Mary Decker too has since married and has children. Neither is likely to forget the nightmare of that day.

My beloved adopted greyhound was named Zola for Zola Budd - at my DIL's suggestion; she too is a dedicated runner who still runs the arduous Boston Marathon every year after two children and foot surgery.

annafair
August 8, 2003 - 03:02 pm
Was just notified by Amazon that my order can't be filled..any ideas where I can get a copy? anna ((

kiwi lady
August 8, 2003 - 04:29 pm
Vanessa and I were again talking about this book which incidentally she is going to read after this discussion - she can't join in as she has four papers this semester her last year - she joins PWC in Auckland in December. She said when she was in Britain recently that the young South Africans she met are becoming keen to go back to SA even though their parents have left as they are so homesick for Africa. They are prepared to become part of the New SA and isn't that encouraging?

Carolyn

Traude S
August 8, 2003 - 06:24 pm
ANNA :

Barnes & Noble lists the book as available for $11.70, I just saw it. Or, have you checked your local library ?

This is a slim book, a scant 220 pages, the narrative is stark and straightforward without stylistic "embroideries" or lyrical passages one might want to write down. But the issues! The issues are deeply human and universal.



CAROLYN, yes indeed, it is encouraging that young South Africans want to go back and help build a united country. Thank you and your daughter VANESSA for contributing her personal impressions and experiences for this discussion; that gives us a very personal, first-hand angle, which is always welcome.

GingerWright
August 8, 2003 - 07:45 pm
This was a bear to get and hope you are just one click away from getting the book.

Disgrace

Traude S
August 8, 2003 - 08:06 pm
GINGEE, how great to see you here! And thanks for establishing the link for Anna. I admire your skill!

Are you getting excited about the trip to Calgary? I would so have liked to come up too to meet you, Gladys, Nellie and so many others. You may be sure I will be thinking of you.

With gratitude.

Lorrie
August 8, 2003 - 08:52 pm
I was very elated to read what Carolyn wrote concerning the wishes of the young South Africans to return to their homeland, even under this entirely different regime. Yes, it is encouaging! Look to our youth, right?

Anna Fair, keep trying at Barnes & Nobel and if that doesn't work perhaps we can get you a copy from a used dealer. Hang in there!

Ginger: Hi, there! Thanks for the link!

Lorrie

GingerWright
August 8, 2003 - 10:14 pm
Trying to help people has been and still is just the way I live my life, I don't know why except I do love people to a fault I am told. I could not be able to be of help if someone had Not helped me "taught me" right here on S/N. So many have tried to teach me so much and I do obseve and when things are posted I try them and they work Yea for me and those that I am able to help.

Oh my am I getting excited about Calgary, You bet I am but have not packed yet so must hurry. Smile. As stated I love people those that I have met and those that I am about to meet, Nellie is one I have never met in person.

Our Queen of S/N Gladys is so Special even in her 80ies she can and does lead our conga lines so well. I met her in Tx. the first time and we have been to every one since then. At the NY/PA gathering she was Queen and our Own Robby was king Oh what a time we had. I try to make our S/N International gathering and our Bookies gathering, DC is coming up this Oct. and I plan to be there oh yes. S/N has the bestest people in the whole wide world me thinks, thats the Irish in me.

Traude You and Lorrie are welcome to the link.

I learn alot from each and every poster in these discussion as you All post so elegant. Thanks to Each and every one of you for sharing. When I have the book I post a little but am not much of a talker. Now who is that LOL???? I have emailed Margaret Walbreck from So. Africa but she can not join us at this time.

OK I have taken up to much of your time so Please back to Book Disgrace as I want to learn from You.

Traude call me Gingee if you wish as I like that, Call me Whatever just call me when it is time to eat. Ginger

GingerWright
August 8, 2003 - 10:52 pm
Here is where you can look at and decide if you can come to the DC National Book Clubs run by Lorra Bush that S/N is part of.

There will be Authors there to listen to but we are Not sure who will be there at this time. This some thing to think about.

Enough is Enough, I will shut up now.

Hats
August 8, 2003 - 11:34 pm
Hi Ginger!!

annafair
August 8, 2003 - 11:44 pm
You are all so kind to help me try and locate a book...that is what I love about this place...the kindness, the generosity of spirit...those that dont know of this place are missing a LOT...I am sure to get a book soon.

Ginger no wonder we got along so well We are both Irish ..I was a Hannigan before I married and I used to kid my husband that HE SHOULD HAVE TAKEN MY NAME ....hugs all around...anna

anneofavonlea
August 9, 2003 - 12:32 am
going to be here, but have just had a lovely read of the discussion.

Afraid Australia had a white Australia policy for many years, and many Australians still promote strongly the ideal, that our aboriginals are slower than whites, unreliable in the workplace and generally unable to succeed without white paternalism.

I always felt that at least South Africa was honest, whereas we promote equality,theoretically, but practically.... dont deliver.

Your Zola Budd reminder bought tears to my eyes Traude, and was a typical example of how someone can be branded out of hand.

Somehow I am always buoyed though, by the generosity of spirit showed in these discussions. Congratulations.

kiwi lady
August 9, 2003 - 02:04 am
Yes and I would like to say I have been spoiled by having books sent to me by generous Bookies in these discussions when I could either not obtain them or afford them here! Each book has the name of the donor in it and the date of the discussion so I am getting a shelf of memories in my bookcase. Books here are twice the price at least because of the exchange rate and we can't often get the second hand copies you are able to access so easily. Everyone in books is so helpful and generous.

Carolyn

Traude S
August 9, 2003 - 07:15 pm
Let me belatedly WARMLY WELCOME ANNEO to our group. I have seen your posts in another forum, but don't remember (sorry) by what name you'd like to be called. I hope I am not too far off!

Glad to have you with us in this predicussion phase.

jeber
August 10, 2003 - 11:51 am
This will be a most interesting discussion I am sure. Have not come across the book as yet. Comments regarding pre& post apartheid are always interesting, especially from those who have never set foot in S Africa! I am English but have lived in this country for many years.

Lorrie
August 10, 2003 - 01:32 pm
jeber, WELCOME, WELCOME!

Do try to get a copy of this book and come and join us on September 1! You are exactly the type of reader we would like to see posting; I believe that, as a transplanted Brit, your comments would be fascinating to read. Please join us, I assure you we will all definitely try to be on our best Yankee behaviour. You can even buy used copies of this book at Amazon or Barnes & Nobel. You are most welcome, and I'm sure my co-host feels the same.

Lorrie

Traude S
August 10, 2003 - 07:23 pm
WELCOME, jeber! We look forward to your input when this discussion begins officially on Sep 1.



This pre-dicussion phase is our chance to welcome reader friends, old and new, and to 'rally the troups', as it were. It is not always easy to discuss from afar a book of fiction that hinges on contemporary political events still unfolding on another continent. In order to keep as balanced a view as possible (to the extent it is), we will need and be grateful for personal experiences, such as VANESSAS's in NZ (see previous posts).

kiwi lady
August 10, 2003 - 11:05 pm
My DIL Karen is British/South African and lived in SA both pre and post apartheid , my daughter Vanessa went out with a South African boy for five years and has also been to South Africa and other parts of the continent. I think I can give some of their impressions - Incidentally Gareth's impressions of his homeland are different from Vanessa's looking at it from a New Zealanders point of view and that of an outsiders. Karen my DIL admits she treated her Nanny abominably and the Nanny would never complain to her parents for fear of losing her job. Probably knowing Karens parents they would have believed the Nanny but she never did tell on Karen. I think Vanessas comments were fair - there is still huge unemployment - there is still huge poverty and there is a lot of violent crime. The middle class still like to have maids. Gareths family both in SA and Kenya had maids - they came in each day for all day. We only have weekly cleaners here only the super rich may have perhaps a housekeeper but then not many have that even. Vanessa is not the only one who has told me the above facts - there are a lot of South African immigrants in my area -in fact there is a family in my street who must have been Afrikaans speakers as their English is not too good. The children always come to me to sponsor them for school fundraising projects. They are about 6yrs and 9yrs old respectively and they have not been here very long. Also my cousin Ross was married to the daughter of a Joberg Industrialist and he could not come to terms with apartheid - he left SA and then his marriage after five years. It was an amicable separation. Differences in personal philosophies were too great. Just thought I would clear up the point raised by our SA poster that comments were being made with no experience of the country.

Carolyn

jeber
August 11, 2003 - 11:01 am
Thank you for the welcome. I was not insinuating that any particular person was speaking with no experience of SA conditions, but that it is a situation which has often come to light. I was fortunate enough to have been brought up in England with maids in our house, and my brother and I were taught to treat everyone with respect, and so my two children were brought up in the same manner here in SA. Their nanny was a good friend to them, and she and my daughter even corresponded when Carolyn (my daughter) went off to boarding school. I personally have not come across anyone who would treat their servant rudely. but undoubtedly there are people who do. My daughter is married and she now lives in England, and would not return to SA except for a visit, she finds there is much more freedom and safety in England. I no longer keep a maid or even a household helper, as we go away fairly frequently and feel it is safer not to have others in the house. Crime does seem to be escalating even here in the small town where we live. Indeed there is great poverty, but having travelled in the Far East, there is great poverty to be seen among the wealth there, as there is to been seen in Kenya too. SA is certainly not alone in the poverty situation. Indeed many folk left the country not wanting to live with the apartheid situation, Australia and New Zealand being very popular destinations, however there doesn't seem to have been a flooding back of these people now that there is democracy and a black government!

Lorrie
August 11, 2003 - 12:00 pm
jeber, and Carolyn:

I'm afraid that I am one of the people who knows little of what's happening in Africa first hand, but I wanted to ask you both: In some of the reading I've done about SA and Zimbabwe, it seems to me that the new government made it especially hard for the farmers in the areas who owned large properties. Is it true that some of the Africans are demanding these lands be given back to them outright? This doesn't seem right to me. Don't they need these farms that have been in the same hands for years run by people who know how?

Lorrie

kiwi lady
August 11, 2003 - 12:44 pm
Actually most of the people who have emigrated here have come here post apartheid. This is a shame I think.

South Africans fit into Australia and New Zealand very well as we share a lot of cultural similarities one of which is the love of sport especially rugby and netball. We have Irene Van Dyke living here and playing netball for our national team. Irene is very well loved by the kids she teaches and the fans. Participation in sport is also one of the similarities we have. The love of the outdoors is another.

Carolyn

annafair
August 11, 2003 - 02:06 pm
I picked up a book at the library today and can extend my time via the phone so I am anxious to start reading to prepare for the discussion....All of the comments are really worthwhile. Even if you have some knowledge of SA and the things that happened there it is good to delve into as much as possible. So I am nearing being ready...anna

Lorrie
August 11, 2003 - 04:51 pm
Anna Fair, I am so glad you managed to get a copy! I always look forward to seeing your name in a discussion, and both Traude and I are so pleased with the interest shown already. I only hope that when we do start discussing the book that it won't seem anticlimatic. anyway, it's good to know you'll be here.

Lorrie

kiwi lady
August 11, 2003 - 05:33 pm
No we have not touched the book yet - just a bit of background which will make the discussion even more meaningful. Don't fret!

Carolyn

Traude S
August 11, 2003 - 06:29 pm
Hello all!

Your responses are most gratifying. The present "introductory", pre-discussion phase is a customary way in Books and Literature of preparing us for scheduled book discussions. It is, I believe, particularly helpful in the present case where we, the readers, are "looking in to" , as it were, an environment of which we have little personal knowledge or conception beyond what we learned from the media over time. I believe that this 'preparedness' will be rewarding when we start the actual discussion.

What is described in DISGRACE could happen anywhere, and probably did -- many, many times over. But in this case the events take on a special connotation and poignancy, unfolding as they do in the new South Africa.

May I encourage you to check the links which LORRIE generously provided (sadly, I lack that ability) and, while you are reading, please glance at the author's face (see the biography) once in a while.

Happy reading!

jeber
August 12, 2003 - 10:54 am
Lorrie, Zimbabwe & S.Africa are two entirely separate countries, with very different govenments. The taking over of farms is happening in Zimbabwe under the government of Robert Mugabe. It would seem that the situation generally is very dire there, and yes, farms have been taken over in a very despotic manner.

kiwi lady
August 12, 2003 - 06:50 pm
Zimbabwe was very prosperous and harmonious Prior Mugabe. I knew black Zimbabweans before Mugabes rule - my Great Uncles who were bridge builders emigrated to Zimbabwe in the beginning of last century from Scotland. Mugabe began reasonably well and one cannot help but say that power in his case corrupted. Its a shame to see a country ruined by a despotic ruler. He deserves to be deposed! My PC techie is Zimbabwean and his mother is still living in Harare she does not want to leave regardless - she knows no other home.

Lorrie
August 12, 2003 - 07:09 pm
You see, this is what makes these posts so interesting, hearing from the people who seem to know a bit about these different countries. Before it was named Zimbabwe, wasn't that country known as Rhodesia? After Cecil Rhodes?

I do believe these comments are really pertinent---all one has to do is pick up today's newspaper. Africa is a daily topic.

Lorrie

Traude S
August 12, 2003 - 08:11 pm
When we came to this country in 1954, I brought along (among more practical necessities) a footlocker filled with books I simply could not live without. Among them was my old school atlas with my name written in my childish hand. For some reason I can't name, the African continent has always fascinated me and I read as much as I could about it.

Yes, Zimbabwe is now the name for the former Rhodesia. Ian Smith was Prime Minister in the turbulent period before the UDI (= Unilateral Declaration of Independence) in 1965. He was often seen on TV here, I recall. Robert Mugabe, the black ruler still at the helm and clearly a despot, issued the highly controversial land redistribution policy in 2000 - ignoring international disapproval. How can the world turn a blind eye when killing and torture are well known?

Also there are unfortunate similarities to egregious autocratic rulers who made their appearance in other post-colonial African nations, and their excesses are well known: the people are starving, conditions have worsened rather than improved.

What is the legacy of the colonial powers?

What examples were set, if any?

Does a regime change automatically benefit everyone? What does it take to eradicate - or at least ameliorate - poverty?

kiwi lady
August 12, 2003 - 08:27 pm
Of course a regime change can alter things. Problem is too many of the African rulers have been lining their own pockets and those of their families. Notice they are all men in power!

Lorrie
August 16, 2003 - 08:04 am
I have been reading some more on the life of this famous author.

Apparently Mr. Coetzee is somewhat hard to pin down to declare his political leanings. This is what one biographer writes," Early criticism of Coetzee’’s novels by both liberal and marxist critics in South Africa did not understand the radical self-reflexivity of his writing, and took him to task for failing to represent accurately the historical conditions of oppression under apartheid. Coetzee has consistently refused to comment on the meaning of his novels, or to declare overtly his political affiliations. He has said that he is alienated by all political language, by ‘‘language that lays down the law, that is not provisional, that does not as one of its habitual motions glance back sceptically at its premises’’.

Raised in an English-speaking home in spite of his Afrikaans surname, the protagonist of Boyhood identifies himself as English; yet he also speaks fluent Afrikaans. He thus belongs to two language communities; yet he is--in both--an outsider."


An enigmatic birthright: half English and half Afrikaaner.

I do believe that we will be able to tell just where his inclinations lie as soon as we get into his book.

Lorrie

Traude S
August 17, 2003 - 01:42 pm
Hello!

It won't be long now before we begin our discussion in earnest.

The death of Idi Amin, murderous dictator of Uganda, is a good reason to reflect on the fate of the African states after the colonial powers departed, leavig the field wide open for military dictators like the late Idi Amin. One of them is still very much there: Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe, the former Rhodesia, who is going right along with his extreme policy of expropriating white settlers despite international disapproval.

The international powers (those who take a look at this continent at all) can do no mre than "disppaprove", but "dispproval" has no teeth. The people of the respective country are no better off: Now they are exploited by their own who live in ostentatious luxury behind high walls, ignoring the ever-present menace of famine.

South Africa is different, or so the world thought, there was inherent strength, good native leadership (Mandela) and great hope. But has the lot of the people really changed in the last decade?

Of cours, and thankfully, we are not called upon to comment on the situation, past or present, even as we are aware that "Disgrace" plays out with this historic background.

horselover
August 18, 2003 - 05:57 pm
I started reading "Disgrace" today while waiting in the eye doctor's waiting room. It's interesting to read all the background comments. I wonder if the "regime change" we are creating in Iraq will result in the same sort of chaos and corruption that has happened in Africa.

kiwi lady
August 18, 2003 - 06:15 pm
South Africa is a different matter. The regime change came from within. Yes influenced by the worlds disapproval of apartheid to some extent but its a democratic nation. Prior to the new regime there was not fair representation. It was a Govt in which the majority of representatives belonged to a minority of the population. South Africa has its problems but its different from the other African nations. It was a peaceful changeover from within. There was not an invasion to change the regime. I have high hopes for SA! It won't happen overnight but I feel it will happen that it will improve economically and thus other problems will be solved. SA is one of the most stable regimes in Africa If not the most stable.

Carolyn

Lorrie
August 21, 2003 - 01:50 pm
I was curious as to what kind of literature was coming out of the post-partheid South Africa, and I enjoyed this quote I found:

"It was easier to write about the past… because the past created ready-made stories. There was a very clear line of demarcation between good and evil, you see? Black was good; white was bad. Your conflict was there. There were no gray areas…. We no longer have that. In this new situation, black is not necessarily good. There are many black culprits; there are many good white people. We have become normal. It’s very painful to become normal."

Zakes Mda (quoted in Swarns)

And here is a very informative reference point for upcoming and established black writers, it's quite interesting:

POST-COLONIAL BLACK WRITERS

Scroll down to the link, "New Black Literature in South Africa."

Lorrie

Traude S
August 21, 2003 - 07:19 pm
LORRIE, thank you for the excellent background information. I have only read parts of it so far, but I believe it will be valuable in our forthcoming discussion.

We may have to determine at some time if, and to what extent, "Disgrace" is representative of post-apartheid literature.

Hats
August 22, 2003 - 07:08 am
Hi Lorrie and Traude, thank you for the clickable. I am going to study it further this afternoon. I did run across a foreign word, for me, while reading. On page 24 "Her accent is glaringly Kaaps;" Can anyone explain the term KAAPS?

Lorrie
August 22, 2003 - 07:58 am
Hats, in the Afrikaans/English dictionary the answer given is:

Result of search for "Kaaps":

1. Kaaps
=Cape

Appartently he was referring to the area from which the speaker came?

Lorrie

Traude S
August 22, 2003 - 08:20 am
LORRIE and HATS, may I add, Afrikaans was the speech of the 17th century settlers from Holland and is still very Dutch.

Hats
August 22, 2003 - 08:24 am
Thanks, Lorrie and Traude. I wondered about "Afrikaans" too. Now, I have an answer or answers to both questions.

jeber
August 24, 2003 - 08:40 am
Have got the book at last! Tried 3 bookshops in Johannesburg last week, not one had it, however my local library has borrowed it for me from a library in a nearby town. I just want to say when the discussion starts, if there are any South African -isms which need clarification, maybe I can help there. Jean

jeber
August 24, 2003 - 08:55 am
Regarding the "glaringly kaaps" accent: Indeed this does refer to an accent of the Cape, but it is an accent peculiar to the so-called Cape Coloured folk, and the particular areas in the Cape from which they come. The Cape Coloureds are not the black people, but are a different group altogether. Afrikaans apparently is more like Flemish rather than Dutch, although as you say its roots are from Dutch. Afrikaans is more guttural. Jean

Hats
August 24, 2003 - 10:20 am
Thanks, Jean. Your answers are very helpful.

kiwi lady
August 24, 2003 - 11:33 am
I borrow a lot of talking books and in them the narrators either have NZers talking in an Australian or South African accent. It makes me smile -the three accents are so different but outsiders must see them as similar! I think the accent of a South African non Afrikaans speaker does show the Afrikaans influence in the intonation of lots of words. I can't hear my own accent normally but it really stands out on tape! Its very nasal!

Lorrie
August 24, 2003 - 09:42 pm
Jeber! This is wonderful! Here we have a poster who is actually "in the picture" so to speak, being right there at the place where the story is set. Your offer to assist in understanding things we read about the area is greatly appreciated. As is your informed help there, Carolyn. I do feel that this will be a truly interesting discussion. I must say I like the people who so far have shown an interest.

I have finished reading the first few chapters of the book, just to get a feel of it when we do begin the discussion, and I notice that there are many references in different languages througout the book, and this is where your expertise will be so helpful. Also I am counting on my co-host, Traude, who is an accomplished linguist, I believe, to help us translate some of the more European phrases.

Lorrie

Traude S
August 25, 2003 - 08:11 am
JEAN, it will be wonderful having you with us. Like LORRIE, I look forward to the discussion.

Lorrie
August 25, 2003 - 10:09 am
Did you all notice the great banner announcing this discussion down below on this page? Perhaps some more people on SeniorNet will see it and come join us!

Lorrie

Traude S
August 25, 2003 - 12:42 pm
A wonderful banner for our discussion, isn't it ?

horselover
August 25, 2003 - 06:03 pm
Traude, What banner is this??? All I see at the bottom of the page is a link to MONTANA--Whaaa?

Traude S
August 25, 2003 - 07:38 pm
HORSELOVER, Hello :

You are right. MONTANA is the banner now.

Banners change frequently. Their purpose is to alert the participants of all arenas in seniornet.org of the many and varied features being offered that merit attention; they are up generally for one day.

The "Disgrace" banner was in the Montana spot this morning when LORRIE posted # 111. It was still there when I posted about 2 hours later but has since been replaced. It was a replica of our header here, and those who have checked here have seen it since it was created.

This is an opportune moment to thank the talented banner makers and techies whose work is much appreciated.

Hats
August 28, 2003 - 05:36 am
On PBS.Org, there is a great deal of information about South Africa, including a photo essay and an announcement of a tv program about South Africa ten years after Apartheid. In some areas, the PBS program will be shown tonight. Look for the heading "Wide Angle."

Lorrie
August 28, 2003 - 07:50 am
Okay, hats, that is something I am glad to hear about. I will be watching for thaat program here. Thanks for the alert.

Lorrie

kiwi lady
August 28, 2003 - 10:59 am
I can get BBC world here in NZ on radio and they have a weekly spot on African news and this way we can be well informed about what is going on in SA. They do lots of interviews in the program too.

Carolyn

Lorrie
August 29, 2003 - 07:33 am
Okay, we're getting mighty close here. I hope everyone has read the first six chapters. All rarin' to go? See you here on Monday.

Lorrie

kiwi lady
August 29, 2003 - 11:19 am
It will be Tuesday for me! (time difference)

Carolyn

jeber
August 29, 2003 - 11:52 am
I have just been to the PBS site mentioned by Hats, am not sure exactly where it emanates from, but presume it is American. I read the wide-angle piece about S.Africa. Lots of things currently taking place are not mentioned. Some of the "facts" are debatable | would think. But that would probably not be appropriate in this discussion. Looking forward to the discussion re:"Disgrace"

Jean

Lorrie
August 30, 2003 - 09:51 pm
Jean, how right you are, about the "debatibility" (sp?) of some of the "facts" you saw on that presentation. As we go into the novel, I am hoping to hear more from you on your feelings, particularly in light of what occurs later in the book.

I feel that both you and Caroline have a front-row seat, so to speak, and it will be intersting to hear from you both. Are you in England now, Jean?

Okay, Caroline, we know you're ahead of us! hahahaha

Lorrie

kiwi lady
August 31, 2003 - 06:43 am
Interesting saw an interview with Father Michael Apsley on TV this morning who says that apartheid is gone but its going to take a very long time to change centuries of thought. He said much of the SA Community is in denial about what went on in the apartheid years. He runs a program to bring the white and black communities together. Some of the white people who attend his programs have never touched a black person - to shake hands etc. The black people learn to trust and get to know the white persons in the program. He goes to Dutch Reform churches to speak on his program and get people to join in. At the end of the program everyone writes a list of how they were hurt by apartheid whether they be black or white and they read it out and symbolically burn the list. This is to symbolise a new beginning. I found it very moving and the participants did seem to get a lot out of it. As I said I do have great hopes for SA but things never happen overnight. I do admire those who have stayed and are helping to build the new South Africa.

Only a couple of days now before we begin in earnest!

Carolyn

Traude S
August 31, 2003 - 08:05 am
Would it be possible to provide a link to the information on South Africa that HATS has found? Unfortunately I did not know where to look for it but would definitely like to read it.

JEAN, if certain pertinent information given on the net on present-day SA, where you live, differs materially from the perceptions, and if that has a bearing on the book, we would certainly want to know about the actual facts, and I assume LORRIE would agree.

Also, the two PBS stations in the Boston area have been holding a fundraising effort for most of the month of August (coming close to the saturation point, allow me to add). Regular broadcasting was preempted for that time, and the program on SA HATS mentioned was not shown.

Back soon

Hats
August 31, 2003 - 11:21 am
Traude, I think the homepage for PBS changes from day to day. On one particular day, I did find the information about SA on their homepage. Today, it is not there. The program is called WIDE ANGLE. I think there will be a different country offered from week to week or month to month. I am not sure.

I am not computer literate. If it is not in plain view, I do not know how to find it. If I come across it again, I will post it here. The website is PBS.ORG.

I am looking forward to the discussion of the book. After this discussion, I will know a lot more about SA than I do not know now. My knowledge is very limited.

Lorrie
August 31, 2003 - 09:47 pm
Good Morning, everyone, and a Happy Labor Day to you all! It’s a shame to drag you all away from the pleasant family outings you all must be enjoying, along with the hot dogs and potato salad, or is it just another Monday to some of you? Either way, let’s talk about “Disgrace!”

At the very beginning of this book, 1t begins by telling us that "For a man his age, fifty-two, divorced, he has, to his mind, solved the problem of sex rather well."

Does that tell you anything about this professor? Does this first part of the novel help you to form an opinion of this man, even an indefinite one?

Lorrie

Hats
September 1, 2003 - 06:20 am
Professor Lurie seems very physical. He can not see beyond the world of sensuality. He uses sex to fulfill a deeper hunger within himself. With each sexual act, the hunger remains within him because he does not think of others. He uses his knowledge of literature to further his views about his feelings. He uses his knowledge of literature to "rape" young women who are his students. Throughout the first six chapters, I did not feel sorry for the man.

Lorrie, the quote you give makes me feel that Professor Lurie is self satisfied and self centered.

Traude S
September 1, 2003 - 09:31 am
LORRIE and HATS, Everyone, Hello.

I agree, HATS. The very first sentence introduces the reader to a man who sees sex as a "problem" but believes he has solved it rather well and achieved "moderate bliss" without marital entanglement and obligations.

He is middle-aged and rues the fact that his once "commanding", "practiced" look at a woman no longer summons her instantly to his side. But he still likes pretty faces and recklessly seduces a 20-year old student of his, narrowly skirting rape.

There is no question that he abused his position of power. His excuses that this was a "different" experience and he was a "servant of Eros" carry no water with the Tribunal of his peers. David Lurie is defiant, self-righteous, evasive, uses sophistry - and ultimately resigns.

What exactly made him so reluctant to publicly admit he was wrong ? Was it his unwillingness to face his personal demons (which would continue to haunt him) ?

Was it arrogance ? The narrator is preoccupied entirely with himself; no thought is given to the harm he inflicted on this young woman, who was rumored to have taken (sleeping?) pills.

Is redemption possible ? Whence will it come ? Looking forward to seeing you posts.

jeber
September 1, 2003 - 10:52 am
First of all, yes I live in South Africa, and am a permanent resident, though I try to visit what I still regard as my homeland, England, once a year for five or six weeks, as my daughter and her family live there. My husband is an English-speaking S.African, but is quite widely travelled. I agree, with what has been said, about the character of David Lurie, a Jewish name though he does not appear to be of that faith. He is certainly a self-centred character at this early stage of the book. The impression too is that he is disillusioned with the transformation , (he calls it rationalization) of the university. There is currently this sort of transformation going on, both in schools as well at tertiary education level. In case anyone is curious, I did a conversion based on today's exchange rate of the amount paid to Soroya for her services! R400 is about $54.50. R400 is quite a lot of money, and multiplied by 4 0r 5, is quite a substantial amount per month,I have no idea what $54.50 is worth in buying power!. I thought Melanie's behaviour rather strange, after all she is not a teenager,was she overawed at being noticed by her lecturer? however I am in no way condoning the behavior of David L. I was interested in your post Carolyn, regarding a Fr.Michael Apsley, I have not come across that name, where in SA does he function?

Jean

horselover
September 1, 2003 - 11:13 am
Here is a link where you can search for all sorts of info on South Africa: http://www.southafrica.com/

I agree with those who said that David Lurie is self-centered, but I think his main problem at the beginning of the book is that he is BORED with himself, his life, and his job. Years ago, an actor named George Sanders committed suicide and left behind a note saying he did it because he was bored. This is obviously a state that can lead people to take desperate measures.

Lorrie
September 1, 2003 - 12:12 pm
Hats, your insightful estimate of Professor Lurie is really good. I agree that he is self-centered, even selfish. Like you, in these first six chapters, there is little to make us like this man.

Jean, I am interested in your remark about "transformation" of the schools in SA. Can you tell us a little bit more about this process, and how it affects education now compared to what it was like before? I was also amused by your breakdown of SA currency---would that mean that Saroya was terribly overpaid, do you suppose?

Traude, you ask the biggest question that i fine puzzling in this part of the book. Why did this man offer no defense against the charges brought before him, even when he was given an out by a colleague? I find that puzzling, he had so much to lose.

And Horselover, I didn't know that about George Saunders. I remember so many of the roles he played, especially the one of the theatre critic in "All About Eve."

We're off to a fine start here!

Lorrie

kiwi lady
September 1, 2003 - 12:17 pm
I have no idea where Fr Apsley is based I think he is an Anglican Priest he seems to now travel all over Africa to other countries too especially to those countries where there has been genocide to promote his forgiveness and healing seminars. He lost his arms in a land mine explosion I think. I missed the first few minutes of the doco so I did not hear exactly how he lost his arms. I think he may have been banned from SA during the last of the apartheid years as he talks about coming back after majority rule.

I did not have any sympathy for our main character at all in the opening chapters of this book. I felt he was self absorbed and definately an abuser of power. He did not seem to have a healthy view of women as a whole. One of those men I love to hate! LOL

Carolyn

horselover
September 1, 2003 - 02:54 pm
Lorrie, George Sanders is not the same person as George Saunders. Saunders is an author who, I think, is still living. Sanders was an actor who died in 1972. "On April 23, 1972, George Sanders checked into a hotel near Barcelona. He was in poor health, lonely, bewildered, without a home: a woman he had taken up with in his last years had convinced him to sell his beloved house in Majorca. Two days later, his body was discovered next to five empty tubes of Nembutal. A note read, "Dear World. I am leaving because I am bored. I feel I have lived long enough. I am leaving you with your worries in this sweet cesspool. Good luck."

It's not surprising that someone who is as self-absorbed as Lurie would be bored. He sees himself as boring, even eventually disgusting, to the women upon whom he has come to depend for sexual satisfaction. His creed: "Call no man happy until he is dead."

Soraya does not receive the R400 that Lurie pays. Half goes to Discreet Escorts. And since she is a kind of independent contractor, she does not get anything when she does not or cannot work, so her total compensation is probably not so great.

Traude S
September 1, 2003 - 07:06 pm
HORSELOVER, the reference to George Sanders is clever and appropriate. The actor personified cynicism - who could forget his performances in REBECCA or in THE PICTURE OF DORIAN GRAY and others !

David Lurie is bored; deep down he is dissatisfied. But he is, perhaps understandably, at loose ends also for other reasons:

He had been professor of modern languages. After the change in the SA government, or the "Great Rationalization", Classics and Modern Languages were done away with, and Lurie is relegated to adjunct professor of communications. Like all "rationalized personnel", he is allowed to offer one special-field course a year, irrespective of enrollment. In the year this story takes place, he is offering a course in the Romantic poets (page 3).

It is easy to see why he is bored, cynical even. He grew up in a house full of women, the narrator tells us; we can surmise that he was pampered, adored and catered to. His two marriages failed, and he is possessive (of Soraya) and jealous (of her husband). He is equally unwilling to let go of Melanie, as we see, and at some point convinces himself that she is the ideal he always sought and he is therefore perfectly justified in ardently pursuing her.

Yet, independently of a person's temperament, isn't it possible, perhaps even likely, that the convulsions of the long struggle against apartheid and the final change of government did leave a mark on every thinking individual in South Africa ? Could this be a contributing factor in David Lurie's malaise ? Perhaps JEAN (JEBER) can help us out here.

kiwi lady
September 1, 2003 - 07:48 pm
The change in focus in Universities round the world is not unique to SA. Classics have gone by the wayside here too and few students take the courses. I think theological colleges still have a classics course. Its very much a 21st century syllabus with Business studies being the no 1 choice. Even the University which specialised in humanities reduced its courses and brought in lots of business orientated degrees. Guess its a sign of the times!

Lorrie
September 1, 2003 - 10:08 pm
Yes, Caroline, but still,it does make me feel a bit wistful.

Does anyone else have mixed feelings about the "rape?" I feel as though the author here has made this definitely ambiguous, and although Lurie's actions were despicable, the girl's behaviour was puzzling, I thought.

Under the old regime, David,a middle-aged, divorced scholar of Romantic poetry, would have undoubtedly been a pathetic figure---In this particular era, he is merely ludicrous. Really, I find very little to like in this character.

Lorrie

Hats
September 1, 2003 - 10:29 pm
Hi Lorrie and Traude and All,

Lorrie, sorry. We were typing at the same time.

Professor Lurie certainly does not respect women. I hate the fact that he relates the majority of women to Madame Bovary. He sees women as people born in need of affairs in order to experience happiness or "bliss." Professor Lurie sees women as totally shallow. This, along with almost everything about him, makes me angry.

No wonder he is bored. He disrespects human life. He doesn't respect his students. He doesn't respect women, not even the women who raised him. He's an undeveloped or underdeveloped fifty two year old man who talks off the top of his head about castration and death. While he sees every other person as shallow, and so, in need of him to come into their life, he is the shallow one.

Thank goodness all professors are not like him.

kiwi lady
September 1, 2003 - 10:37 pm
From what I have heard there are still some Professors of David's ilk about in the world! However we hope they are in the minority. They are predatory men who rely on their position of authority and the fact they give the grades to prey on female students.

Carolyn

Hats
September 1, 2003 - 10:50 pm
Carolyn, yes. Those men and women are out there. I hear about some of them on the news.

Lorrie, I think Melanie's behavior seems puzzling because she is being "harrassed" and / or "raped" by a guy who is so very much older than her peers. He also is an authority figure. Whey they have sex, Melanie seemed very passive, almost numb. I think being in such a situation would make a young girl react in that way. Like Carolyn said, "they give the grades to prey on female students."

horselover
September 2, 2003 - 10:25 am
David Lurie's reaction to the charges and the inquiry seem to be a form of professional suicide. He refuses to accept any help in dealing with the charges, even when he is told his guilty plea could result in his dismissal and loss of pension and benefits. It's hard to tell what is motivating him at this point, but you have to give him some credit for not wanting to blame Melanie in any way for what happened. He rejects any suggestion that he seek clemency by calling her a liar.

I think he sees this "affair" as his last hurrah. He says he doesn't think he will have another chance. He wants to remember this experience the way he sees it, as consensual sex. If he admits that his position of power played a part in her submission, he would have to see himself as his ex-wife sees him--an unattractive older man whom Melanie would have found distastful in bed.

jeber
September 2, 2003 - 10:51 am
I just converted the rand to Dollar amount for interest sake, because I really have no idea what the "going rate " for such services might be!! With regard to the educational changes, I am not an expert, nor do I have children at school, my own children went to private schools because we wanted them to have an education based more on the principles of an English schooling, and there was no restriction (apart from financial) upon who attended these independant schools. There were government schools which taught in the English language medium, for English speakers, and separate schools for Afrikaans speakers, as there still are of course. There has been speculation that standards have been lowered since integration and I do know that there are more curriculum changes in the pipeline, for instance the abolishing of the matriculation exams. There is also talk of combining the Technicons and Universities into one entity, but this has met with considerable reistance. I think that the new system which is gradually being phased in is called "outcomes based", I will try to find out more about this if it is of interest. I found "Disgrace" depressing and despondant all the way through, with characters all portrayed almost as "no hopers" The literary style too seemed rather strange, seeming to be narrated by a third party looking on. Did anyone else have that impression?

Jean

kiwi lady
September 2, 2003 - 12:33 pm
Jean what is being done in the educational field in SA is being done here.

There are no outside examinations except University Bursary Exams. This is the pre requisite for University Entrance. Many of the Technical Tertiary Institutions now have more courses and are registered as Universities for instance Unitech which is our local one here. Its the University of Technology. What SA is doing is actually very 21st century. I myself feel this way is a mistake but who am I to say this as I am not an educationalist.

Carolyn

Lorrie
September 2, 2003 - 03:43 pm
Even with all his faults, I believe Lurie is honest enough to sense the exploitation he is using. In one of their sexual encounters, he has an uncomfortable sensation that he has forced himself upon his student: "She does not resist. All she does is avert herself; ave her lips, avert her eyes"....... Page 25. And on the same page, "Not rape, not quite that, but undesired nevertheless, undesired to the core. As though she had decided to go slack, die within herself for the duration, like a rabbit when the jaws of the fox close on its neck. So that everything done to her might be done, as it were, far away."

Magnificent writing!

Lorrie

By the way, did Melanie turn him in, or was it her boy friend?

horselover
September 2, 2003 - 05:34 pm
Lorrie, He, and we, don't know yet who turned him in. It could have been Melanie or her boyfriend, as you suggest. Or it could have been the irate father.

Why do you suppose Lurie has such an antagonistic relationship with the one woman on the inquiry panel?

Traude S
September 2, 2003 - 06:49 pm
When I read this book for the first time two years ago with our live local discussion group, I felt repulsion for the narrator. I have since reread the book-- and several chapters more than once (always detecting a new nuance), and I have come to realize that at least David Lurie is honest and brutally frank about himself. That doesn't make him any less repulsive, and I still find his actions reckless and distasteful.

What happens on that first evening is a verbal seduction. "He is mildly smitten. It is no great matter: barely a term passes when he does not fall for one or other of his charges. Cape Town : a city prodigal of beauty; of beauties."

The professor plies Melanie with wine, conversation, music, and then dinner, but Melanie turns down his impudent offer that she spend the night (pp.10/11). Is it possible that she, the student, is flattered by his attention ?

As I said, I believe that the sexual encounters skirted but did not constitute actual rape. Melanie is passive, she does not protest, fight or resist. She does not cry out "no no", she endures.Is she frightened ? Her only self-defense : she stays away from classes, does not take the make-over test, then resigns from the course. The professor's world collapses.

The reader isn't told who reported David; the boyfriend and the roommate must have had something to do with it, and the parents were probably notified after Melanie's decision to quit the course. Did the college call the parents ? Or could we possibly infer from the reference to Melanie's having taken pills that she tried to kill herself? Was it at that point that the parents were contacted ? Or was the course of events as conjctured by the narrator on pp. 38-40. ?

All this is only the beginning of David Lurie's downfall. Coetzee has written before about a man broken down to nothing before he finds a measure of redemption: that was in 1983 in Life and Times of Michael K" for which he was awarded his first Booker Prize. To be awarded this coveted honor twice is indeed a rarity. But Professor Lurie has farther to fall than Michael K, an unsophisticated Cape Town gardener.

David Lurie does not have a high opinion of himself (we've come to call it "low self-esteem"); he thinks of himself as a cockroach one might discover to one's horror in the sink. That reminded me of Franz Kafka's The Metamorphosis in which the protagonist is so self-loathing and totally, miserably at odds with his domineering father (the book is heavily autobiographical) that he literally turns into a cockroach, no longer worthy of being human.

There are more references to animals in the follwing chapters of Disgrace, you will note.

Disgrace is a slim book, its language spare and without embellishments. Every sentence counts. It has been suggested that the book is an allegory of South Africa. That may well be true. Radical changes are hardly ever painless. We'll have a chance to consider that point at the end of our reading.

Lastly, there were surely other practical consequences of the "Great Rationalization" in SA in 1991 than just the change of Cape Town University College to the Cape Technical University and its new rules.

What are your thoughts on the rehearsal, the play itself, and Melanie's role in it ?

HORSELOVER, saw your post as I was editing mine. Will reread the chapter again.

ANNAFAIR, welcome !

annafair
September 2, 2003 - 07:01 pm
Today was the first time I have had a chance to read the book ...I think David has a low opinion of himself...and I dont think this a new thing for him. He seems to recognize his needs well and in that respect I find him not only selfish but "A SNAKE" back later I need to see how far I did read. One doesnt get lost in a lot of descriptions so the reading went smoothly....anna

kiwi lady
September 2, 2003 - 08:13 pm
Rereading the chapters leading up to the seduction of Melanie it is clear that David has a perverted view of the relationship between men and women. He says he loves women having been brought up in an all female extended family household. He does not love women I believe he is a manipulator. He learnt to manipulate the women in his household at an early age I believe to get his own way. He has not matured and continues on this path as a middle aged man. He was probably the centre of attention as a child in the all women household. He is emotionally immature.

Traude S
September 2, 2003 - 08:40 pm
Very true, CAROLYN.

However, I believe there is more to the story, a deeper meaning :

If we consider David Lurie's weaknesses, his contempt of others, his belief that he can take what he wants without reprisal (in his case women he fancies), his stubborn insistence that there is no need for him to change, and his refusal to accept counseling,

would it be too far-fetched to regard these traits as symptomatic of the malaise (too mild a term, I know) of South Africa during and after apartheid ? And could we then read the story as an allegory ?



Of course we are just at the beginning, in the investigative phase as it were; we've yet to see what happens to David Lurie and whether there is (at least the hope of) redemption. May I add, finally, that we should not be misled by the dispassionate tone in which the story is told. The underlying feelings, the shame, they are there, just under the surface.

kiwi lady
September 2, 2003 - 10:05 pm
Yes Traude I believe it could be an allegory but we do not know if the author meant it to be an allegory. The doco I saw the other day says that many White South Africans still live in denial about the effect Apartheid had on the black community I think this is true to an extent when I listened to apologists for the system I have met out here.

For instance - "We treated our boys well. We fed them gravy beef for dinner" I was horrified when a woman I was working with 20 yrs ago spoke about her ex employees in this fashion. To me it was as if she was speaking about feeding a pet not a human being.

Now we are hearing about discrimination within sports teams by white team members against black team members. There has been reports on the news in the last couple of days. That is very sad - I thought that was a thing of the past.

I guess no society is perfect but a good start is having legislation which prevents overt racial discrimination.

I have reread the first six chapters and I believe that David was in denial about the effect his seduction had on Melanie. To me her reaction to him at first was like a victims reaction to a paedofile when first they were abused.

Lorrie
September 2, 2003 - 10:38 pm
don't know, Horselover. It's hard to understand why Lurie didn't try to go along with the committee when they were questioning him, and on page 49 he seems to really become enraged at the nameless young woman "in a business suit" who asks him if he had ever consulted anyone, like a priest, or a counsellor. there was something about this particular womsn who set him off.

AnnaFair makes a good distinction. She says, in Post #145 One doesnt get lost in a lot of descriptions so the reading went smoothly....anna

You're all doing just great! These are wonderful, thoughtful posts, full of character analyses.

Lorrie

kiwi lady
September 2, 2003 - 10:41 pm
A business suit - a woman exuding confidence- maybe in a position of power- David feeling threatened - the tables are turned and he is not in control!

Carolyn

Lorrie
September 2, 2003 - 10:48 pm
Right on, Caroline! I can hear the clapping of all the 'Libbers behind you! Hahahaha

Lorrie

Hats
September 3, 2003 - 05:32 am
Carolyn, I have not read the other messages. I read yours and you wrote so well what I do not know how to write. I truly believe that Melanie was raped. David Lurie deserves not a bit of sympathy from me. He took advantage of a young woman, his student. He remains without pity or sympathy from me.

Rape is rape no matter how the young woman reacts. I think her passivity was in reaction to him. She felt repulsed. She did not know how to find her way out of the situation. He stepped out of his place. It was not the first time. He had done it many times in the past. We do not send young daughters to school to be raped by their professors.

Traude S
September 3, 2003 - 12:12 pm
Catching up with your great posts.

HATS, there is no question that the professor acted abominably -- he himself knew and admitted it. Which is not the same as saying he regretted it, because he wasn't the least bit contrite !

Even so, let's follow him as he seeks refuge with his daughter, and let's see, CAROLYN, whether there is indeed a larger message in this book (I think there is).

Of course we don't have to "like" a character in any book; I have often said that we don't even have to like a BOOK to have a productive discussion. DISGRACE is a case in point.

As for Melanie, is the issue really that clear-cut ? What possessed this young woman to appear on David's doorstep (all dressed in black) asking for temporary asylum ? What prompted that ? A fight with the nameless boyfriend ? Ambivalence ? Why ?

There are no excuses, there is no sympathy for David Lurie. He has already been chastised, shunned, lost his job; he is debased, but that's by no means the end of his humiliations.

Did you look at the play Melanie's theatre group was rehearsing ? It showed the effort of coming to grips with new realities : the gay hair dresser, the new reality of equality between black and white and "coloureds" in everyday life, a life that had been totally segregated seemingly forever under apartheid. Now, can't we interpret that play as representative of the young people's awareness of the new reality in the country and give them some credit ? Hope is always with the young, and we have touched on this in our pre-discussion exchanges.

More later.

kiwi lady
September 3, 2003 - 12:24 pm
Yes hope is with the young. It was the young who gave of their lives to end apartheid (in their droves). High school kids - jailed and beaten. What courage! I don't see many of our high school kids here demonstrating on any issue. Think they have too much and are too self indulgent! The only time I saw our high school kids come out was in support of their teachers request for pay increases. I suppose that is something. Don't know what it is like in your countries but here there is little interest by most young people in politics. They don't seem to become politically aware until they marry and have kids which today is in the thirty something age group. Late thirties mostly. I suppose too its because they don't become householders until they are much older than we were. As I said previously the young SAfricans Vanessa met in London were talking about going home and becoming part of the new SA. Vanessa said Africa is so beautiful and so beguiling that if she had to leave NZ and go elsewhere Africa would be No 1 on her list.

Hats
September 3, 2003 - 01:12 pm
Traude, Putting on the play is a way for the young people to deal with South Africa's problems. It might not be a perfect or earth shattering way of coming to grips with Apartheid, but it is a beginning. At least, they know a problem exists. They also know that action must be taken. Melanie reminds me of the new South Africa while Professor Lurie reminds me of the old South Africa.

Professor Lurie slips into the seats of the auditorium and hides in the darkness. He is afraid to confront the past, present or future because he is afraid to face his own aging process.

Lurie calls himself a letcher. Yet, again, he excuses such behavior. "all of them were once upon a time children of God, with straight limbs and clear eyes. Can they be blamed for clinging to the last to their place at the sweet banquet of the senses? Lurie wants to, allegorically, cling to the old way, the old SA.

I do believe that Mr. Coetzee uses the rape to give a broader picture, an allegory of an underlying problem.

All of the posters give me a clearer idea of what SA is like, whether in the past or the present.

horselover
September 3, 2003 - 05:11 pm
Traude, I also wondered why Melanie showed up at Lurie's apartment. This made her appear less of a victim.

I think David Lurie is frightened of the life he sees before him as he ages. He says, "Ageing is not a graceful business." He thinks "perhaps it is the right of the young to be protected from the sight of their elders in the throes of passion." He judges all women by their attractiveness, yet he senses that he is becoming very unattractive to women. He likes only young women, but knows that they no longer find him desireable. He tries to mask his fears with a veneer of self-confidence in front of the committee. He says, "I have no fear of the committee." But in reality, he wonders who will take care of him as he ages.

Something about about him, in these early chapters reminds me of the pedophile in "Lolita." I hope we will see some growth in Lurie and some realization that it is possible to age gracefully.

Traude S
September 3, 2003 - 07:47 pm
HORSELOVER, oh my, "Lolita" ! Now there is one controversial book !! It became embroiled in censorial struggles right after its publication in the mid-fifties. The story is unsavory IMHO and, I believe, Vladimir Nabokov intended it to be shocking. But Humbert Humbert was a child molester, ultimately a murderer, and the personification of evil.

David Lurie is a weak fallible man, slave to his instincts and passions, greedily takes what he wants, selfishly inflicts pain without showing remorse, but he is not evil incarnate, nor have I seen DISGRACE described as "controversial" when I did research for this book.

And yes, David Lurie judges women entirely by their looks (not that that doesn't happen now! <g>), their mind doesn't seem to interest him.

HATS, I'll formulate my thoughts regarding the play (it willresurface later in the book) and write more tomorrow.

JEBER (Jean), DISGRACE is narrated in the present tense through David Lurie's consciousness, though not in the first person. The effect is, I believe, one of both immediacy and, curiously, of deliberate detachment.

Lorrie
September 3, 2003 - 10:13 pm
Caroline, it does seem as though our youth could be a little less self-centered and less interested in fleeting pleasues, doesn't it? It is rare to see young people in this country actually demonstrating for a Cause, or even showing protest over some of our country's ultimatums.

It appears that Melanie enjoyed doing the play, and from what I could tell she seems to get very little enjoyment from most things. The way Cooetze describes her, she seems sort of lackluster, but that is strictly my opinion.

Horselover, you seem to be able to touch right on certain inequities, that we all may be wondering, like WHY did Melanie present herself at Luries doorstep? Were we ever told, exactly?

Traude, you know, I believe there must be something wrong with my sense of humor. When I first saw the movie "Lolita" I laughed very hard at most of it, especially the intricate maneuvers James Mason was making to get connected to the young girl, but I don't think it was intended to be funny, so it must be me.

Anyway, this book is moving slowly now, but we are certainly getting a clear definition of this man's character, which seems to most of us to be repugnant, so let's hope, as someone (Hats?) says that further reading will bring us a little more enlightment.

Hats, I liked the way you describe Lurie's slipping into the darkened theatre. "He is afraid to confront the past, present or future because he is afraid to face his own aging process....." Very good.

Lorrie

Lorrie
September 4, 2003 - 10:28 am
Traude, I like what you said about Coetzee's style: "DISGRACE is narrated in the present tense through David Lurie's consciousness, though not in the first person. The effect is, I believe, one of both immediacy and, curiously, of deliberate detachment." Well said!

Did anyone note any significance to the cessation of Lurie's visits to Saroya? On page 6 it tells of a chance sighting he has of Saroya out on a shopping trip with her two sons. She noted that he had seen her and from then on their relationship was not the same. I wonder why her interest in him waned when she learned he had seen part of her "other life." In a way, this led up to his ultimate stalking of the young student.

Lorrie

jeber
September 4, 2003 - 10:50 am
I thought that Saroya probably kept her "business life" quite separate from her personal life. It did say in the book that she had never mentioned anything about her personal life to David. Possibly she was unmarried, and not fitted for a well-paying occupation and so prostitution was a way of keeping herself and her children well cared for. Once David had seen her with her children she was most likely aware that her other life may be revealed, and so wanted nothing more to do with him. As for the racism in sport, yes it has reared its ugly head, however nothing has been proven against anyone. The story was apparently leaked to the press and blown out of all proportion, and of course people love to latch on to such a thing. I have not heard any news today, but up until yesterday neither of the men concerned had spoken out publicly. Only two men are involved, and surely adults are entitled to have a say about whom one shares a room, but of course the race card is brought into it to stir up trouble. I might add that there is resentment about the quota system in national sports teams, where places are given without due regard to merit, to suit the quota. I know this is off topic, but I wonder if the fact that twenty two white men are involved in a treason trial for plotting to overthrow the government is common knowledge in the rest of the world? The wheel has turned full circle!! Also some very high people in the cabinet are under suspicion of corruption. There are many South African young people who go to the UK to earn money, because the rate of exchange of the Ł against the R is so good. However the job situation here is quite difficult, and there is job reservation in reverse, it is called affirmative action. One can be "too male & too pale!!"

Jean

horselover
September 4, 2003 - 11:14 am
Lorrie, I don't think there is anything wrong with your sense of humor. You are right on target--Humbert Humbert was intended to be regarded as somewhat of a comic figure, even though the consequenses of his actions are evil.

Traude, I did not mean to totally equate Lurie with Humbert. Melanie, of course, is not underage. Except for the teacher- student relationship, she would have been capable of consent. But Lurie's attitude toward his desires and his right to follow them, and satisfy them, regardless of consequenses is similar.

Hats
September 4, 2003 - 12:37 pm
I think Soraya hated the way she made a living. She, in no way, wanted that part of her life to touch her children. After Lurie sees Soraya with her children, there is a difference in their relationship. Both Soraya and Lurie feel as if the children are in the room watching them.

"The two little boys become presences between them, playing quiet as shadows in a corner of the room where their mother and the strange man couple."

kiwi lady
September 4, 2003 - 12:40 pm
Hats you are right. Soraya was humanised and no longer seemed purely a sexual object. She was a mother.

Traude S
September 4, 2003 - 12:48 pm
JEBER, thank you for this interesting bit of information. I had not read anything about a plot against the South African government by 22 white men. They are on trial right now for treason, you say? What would the punishment be if they are found guilty ?

This is not off the subject, JEAN: Beginning with chapter 7 on Sep 8, our book shows the effects of some post-apartheid policies on the people of South Africa and the new realities, devastating though some are, where broad questions of conscience and culpability are refracted through the prism of personality and individual choice of the protagonists, most especially David and his daughter Lucy.

It was Soraya who ended the "arrangement". They had been meeting weekly for a year, he had begun giving her presents and talked about himself, a little. His weeks were structured. One Saturday morning he sees her slim figure in the crowd with two boys who can only be her sons (pg. 6), follows her at a distance, sees them entering an eatery. He walks by the restaurant a second time, the three are sitting at a table by the window and, for an instant, Soraya's eyes meet his.

Neither mentions the incident, Soraya keeps the appointments at first, but he feels a growing coolness as she transforms herself into "just another woman" and him into "just another client (pg. 7) Four weeks later she tells him that she is going to take a break because her mother is ill. When he asks her when she'll be back, she is evasive. When he doesn't hear from her, he contacts the agency and is told that Soraya has left (pg. . He has two other (unsatisfactory) "episodes" then pays a detective agency to track Soraya down. He calls her at her home; she denies knowing him, tells her he is harassing her in her own home and demands that he never ever call her again (pg. 10). His weeks are now "featureless", he spends more time in the library and, walking home on a Friday evening, he happens upon Melanie Isaacs who had caught his eyes in class. An "entanglement" ensues, too brief really to be called an affair.

The play David watches unnoticed in the auditorium is called "Sunset at the Globe Salon", a comedy of the new South Africa set in a hairdressing salon in Hillbrow, Johannesburg. On stage a flamboyantly gay hairdresser, two clients, one black, one white. There is patter among the three, jokes, insults. "Cartharsis seems to be the presiding principle : all the coarse old prejudices brought into the light of day and washed away in gales of laughter." Enters Melanie, her accent is "glaringly Kaaps" - to apply for the advertised job. She is clumsy. And that is the irony! Whites had never done menial work before. (page 23)



She is not in school when a test is taken, she stays away all week- his calls remain unanswered. At midnight on Sunday she appears on his doorstep. "Can I sleep here tonight ?", she whispers. "Of course, of course", he says. "No, no tea, nothing, I just need to crash." He wonders : "Does she know what she is up to, at this moment?" ... "What game is she playing?" That is a legitimate question for the reader too - Alas, we are not told.

Traude S
September 4, 2003 - 04:57 pm
Lorrie, a quick footnote on "Lolita".

I read only the book, never saw the movie, so I have no idea whether or how Stanley Kubrick's film might have differed from the novel. There may well have been comical elements in the book too, but what I remember best is the shock of reading this tale of an older man with a predilection for prepubescent girls whom he calls "nymphets", and the precocious 12-year old Dolores whose mother he marries so that he can be close to his Lolita...

A second movie was made in England in the late eighties with Jeremy Irons as H. Humbert. American film distributors refused (!) to participate in its release- hmmm. It was eventually shown on cable in this country, I believe. If so, I misssed it.

Next time I'm going to the library, I'll check to see whether they have a video of either film. But I have no wish to read the book again, as psychologically interesting as that might be.

horselover
September 5, 2003 - 09:39 am
I think there are parallels between what happened in the U.S. after the slaves were freed, and what is happening in South Africa. In the U.S., there was a great deal of violence in the immediate aftermath. The slaveholders tried to hold onto their old way of life by subjugating blacks in a new way (a form of apartheid called Jim Crow). Gradually, these laws were declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. Now, there is a residue of guilt about the wrongs of the past and a desire to make up for them by affirmative action.

In South Africa, I think the white landholders are still trying to keep their way of life, while the blacks want the land redistributed more fairly. They are still at the stage where violence is seen as a way to achieve justice.

jeber
September 5, 2003 - 10:45 am
Traude, here is an example of how different interpretations may be put on scene, and I speak about the play set in the hairdressing salon. When I read that incident, I never for a moment thought that Melanie was portraying a white girl, especially as her accent is described as being glaringly Kaapse. This is an accent that would be associated with a coloured person in this country; it is quite distinctive and unmistakable and also peculiar to the Cape Coloured people. I think in an earlier post( I am onot on line every day) it was queried as to who had laid the charge against David.L Although Melanie signed the complaint,the query was as to who leaked the news to the outside. Strangley enough the current rugby racist incident which Kiwi Lady brought to our attention is somewhat similar in action and reaction to the Melanie complaint. On page 53 "Ideally we would all have preferred to resolve this case out of the glare of the media. But this has not been possible." Exactly the same has happened in this case. Incidentally the man concerned has been cleared of the charge of racism against him, but an enquiry is still to be held to get to the bottom of the whole thing. With regard to the land redistribution question, there is no violence in S.Africa over this , I wonder if Horselover is thinking of Zimbabwe where there has indeed been much violence?. There have been a lot of farm murders here, but a recent study of these has come to the conclusion that they are the result of criminal activity, and are not politically motivated.

Jean

jeber
September 5, 2003 - 11:54 am
Traude, One can only surmise what the sentence for the treason trialists will be, life I expect, but the trial is expected to take a very long time. The men are being held in a high security prison, and when they come to court they are in chains although wearing ordinary clothes. That is how they have been seen on TV.

Jean

Traude S
September 5, 2003 - 02:57 pm
JEBER, I am, we are indebted to you for participating in this discussion and for reporting about things from the locus operandi <g> as we are only peering in, trying to understand. But to what extent can we ever fully understand an experience we haven't had ?

Sorry, we've just had one of those occasional, annoying second-long power outages, I'm coming back from resetting all those blinking lights ...

As I begin anew, let me ask whether we should refer to you as JEAN or JEBER when we acknowledge your posts ?

It was inevitable that we touch on the languages (official and tribal) spoken in SA. I checked with Google but did was not entirely successful in my research. Regrettably, several important URLs in Dutch, one of the languages I speak and understand, were not accessible.

From what I have been able to find, Kaaps is an accent who speaks it where.

Irrespective of the details, I believe that the young people in Disgrace who put on this play, a comedy ?!, about the new SA, are on the right track, however idealistic and amateurish their approach may seem. After a cataclysm of such magnitude, any new (attempted) beginning must be welcomed --and this is precisely what Coetzee does in this book.

There is a wealth of allusions (lierary and others) in this deceptively "simple"slim book, which we might miss. So, leisurely reading is recommended.

Some pieces of conversation casually tossed out in the story should be given a second look : We know of David Lurie's immense knowledge of the Romantic poets, that's his domain, after all. So when he talks to Melanie about the >U>Byron scandal , does she (do we?) realize that the professor is referring to Byron's incestuous relationship with his half-sister ?

Foreign words are there too, like "Schadenfreude" = a German noun that has no translation, as even the eminent language maven of the NYY, William Safire, admitted. It is a noun and means noticing and taking pleasure in amothers' misfortune.

Lorrie
September 5, 2003 - 03:47 pm
Traude, you mention several variations of language that I have been thinking about, also. I am so glad we are fortunate enough to have your expertise in the language fields here.

Jean, I am truly surprised to read that Melanie is actually a white girl. I don't know why I was surprised, but I have noticed that Coetzee is very careful not to mention the skin color so far in any of the black characters, and (forgive me for jumping ahead s bit) this continues on into the next few chapters. We know Saroya is black,(or Asian) with "honey-brown skin, unmarked by the sun," but frankly, I couldn't tell Melanie's ethnic background by the way she is described. And the same for her father. I do think it is admirable for Coetzee to emphasize that the skin color is so inconsequential, but it is interesting.

In other novels about South Africa that I have read, there is often mention of "coloreds" and "Asians" and I gathered that there is a distinction. During apartheid wasn't there a definite social strata concerning the various skin colors and backgrounds? Can you explain this a bit?

Lorrie

horselover
September 5, 2003 - 06:21 pm
Lorrie, You mentioned that Coetzee is careful not to mention the skin color so far of any of the black characters, and that this continues on into the next chapters. I noticed this, too, but (forgive me also) he does describe a party where David Lurie and his daughter are the only white faces.

I have become very absorbed in this story. There will be so nuch to discuss in the next section, but I will say no more about that until Monday.

You also mentioned the social strata concerning the various skin colors. This is true in South American countries as well, and in the U.S. The lighter the skin and the more European the features, the higher the social standing. This is probably the result of centuries of subjugation and indocrination, and the fact that the Western industrialized nations are currently more powerful, and are dominated by Caucasions.

Traude S
September 5, 2003 - 07:33 pm
LORRIE, HORSELOVER:

News about SA is not Subject Number One in our media. This is what I gleaned from the article in the NYT of Jul 23, 03 :



Caught in the middle between blacks and whites in SA are those of mixed race. They were known under apartheid as "coloreds", lived as second-class citizens and were derided as progeny of forbidden racial mixing. They are descendants of European colonists; Malay and Indonesian slaves; Khoi and San bushmen, and other African tribes, and include Asians - proof that the races have mingled on the tip of Africa for more than 300 years.

How much has changed, if anything ? What are we missing ? An update from JEAN would be very helpful.

I have been brooding over a question which I intended to ask at the end of the discussion. Since we are going to get into the heart of the story come Monday, I'd like to ask it now, for all of us to ponder as we continue reading.



Can political change eliminate human misery ?

kiwi lady
September 5, 2003 - 07:48 pm
No Traude,

You can legislate but its the hearts of men that have to change to alleviate human misery.

Carolyn

Hats
September 5, 2003 - 11:52 pm
Traude, I don't think political change can alleviate human misery immediately. First of all, political change comes about after people have suffered oppression and dehumanization for many, many years.

This lack of acceptance destroys self worth. People tend to wonder are they truly accepted or are they accepted because the law "says" their accepted. So, for awhile, political legislation is only a bandage over an emotional scar. The political laws might be in place, but the emotional Turmoil of living through racial hatred remains for years to come.

kiwi lady
September 6, 2003 - 06:59 am
I have to comment further on my previous post about changes of heart against changes in legislation.

I have just seen a news item on BBC world. The item was speaking about shootings of white farmers in SA. These farmers appear to be Boers. Then the reporters went on to farms and showed workers housed in appalling conditions. Soweto is an exclusive suburb in comparison. They interviewed a worker who said beatings were common and said he had been beaten for making a mistake. The reporter went to the Farmers house and he admitted to the BBC he had beaten the worker and it was "the way they treated the workers" he saw nothing wrong with this. The reporter pointed out it was abuse but the farmer again said he saw nothing wrong with this. The attitudes of these Boer farmers obviously have never changed since the days of apartheid. While these attitudes continue there will be a backlash. There is no other work other than farm work in these areas for blacks. Personally I was appalled at this news item.

Carolyn

horselover
September 6, 2003 - 10:09 am
Jeber, You said that the farm murders in South Africa are considered ordinary criminal activity, and are not politically motivated. I think where you have a political system which encourages such "criminal activity" and police who fail to investigate these incidents properly and bring the criminals to justice, then it would seem that there is a political connection to the rise in these incidents. When lynching was common in the Southern U.S., it was not simply criminal activity, but was condoned in the same way by the political establishment.

I agree with Kiwi Lady that there is probably a long history of abuse that motivates these crimes in SA, but if the rule of law does not prevail, the country cannot move forward. In answer to Traude's question, slow political and legal change can alleviate, if not eliminate, human misery. In the U.S., the slow march of change through legislation and court decisions has changed the lives of minorities.

Lorrie
September 6, 2003 - 05:22 pm
We will now, on Monday, go on to the next six chapters of the book. Just in case there are some lurkers here who had planned to join in with this discussion, I did want to warn you that these next pages are very intense, perhaps even brutal, and perhaps you might wish to take note of that.

Before we go on, there was something I wanted to ask. What was your impression of the confrontation the professor and Melanie's boy friend had in Lurie's class, when they were discussing Lucifer's fallen angels? (page 32) Despite Lurie's stated contempt for the "range of ignorance" of his students, I had the feeling that this boy friend could be much more erudite than perhaps the professor gives him credit for.

I am really enjoying this discussion. We may not be many, but the quality of the comments made here is admirable. Some of your expressions are noteworthy, too, like Hats' "He has a perverted view of the relationship between men and women....."

Lorrie

Traude S
September 6, 2003 - 07:19 pm
Lorrie,

Indeed we are headed for rougher seas in the story, as if we didn't know there is no idyl. But please take heart: this is not gory ŕ la Stephen King, just heart-breaking.

As for racial prejudice, its pervasiveness and lamentable " longevity" , let me tell you about a regional incident.



Last Tuesday afternoon= the first day of school in the greater Boston area, a black kindergartner who was in an after-school program run by the Wellesley (* see footnote) Community Children's Center, at Wellesley HS, was mistakenly placed on a Metco city bus and let out in Dorchester (** see footote). An alert mother waiting for her son at that bus stop noticed the lone boy. Her immediate understanding of the situation and reactions led to the happy outcome.

(* footnote) Wellesley is a wealthy, predominantly white suburb of Boston. (** footnote) Dorchester is part of the city of Boston where the black population has greatly increased since the seventies.

This incident has raised the question of racial bias, fueled by the revelation that this was not the first time a minority student from the suburbs was wrongly ushered onto a Metco bus headed for the city. Several inquiries are pending.

Boston went through a wrenching, devastating period of desegregation in the seventies. There was turmoil, violence and deep, lasting resentment. I stared at the TV screen then, uncomprehending, thinking of George Wallace in Alabama. With an incident like this all these many years later, how can we fail to reflect on that past and take stock?

About a year ago Harvard University commissioned a study about the effects of desegration in Boston. The report was delivered at a conference a weekend ago, the finding was disappoining : "white flight" out of the city, the remaining whites are in private schools, black and hispanic students are the majority in the public schools.

I submit this to you simply for your information.

jeber
September 7, 2003 - 10:54 am
Again I do not have too much time online, so will try to encapsulate a few things. I don't mind whether I am Jeber or Jean, Jean being my real name and Jeber my log-in. Regarding race groups in SA. There are basically, blacks, whites, coloureds and Indians, and those are considered polite descriptions of each group. There have been various names for the different racial groups over the years, whites used to be referred to as Europeans and blacks as Bantu and so on. We all have to carry identity documents, and whereas ones racial group was encrypted into one's ID number this is no longer the case. In newspaper reports, race is not allowed to be mentioned, but usually the name gives an indication especially where black people are concerned. SA is no Utopia, but what country in the world is? Not all whites are ill-mannered despotic & cruel bigots, and not all blacks are good and kind. Most people wish to be left alone and to live in peace. There is a saying here, and it seems to be true that the criminals roam the streets whereas the law-abiding citizens of all races live behind, bars, walls, and electric fences. The days of Boers & Brits are long gone, white South Africans, are just that, South Africans, there are Afrikaans speaking SA's and English speaking SA's. (I refer there to white S.Africans,but all people born in this country are South Africans,) English & Afrikaans are compulsory subjects in the schools, and South Africans are bilingual, for this is a bilingual country, in fact it is now and I guess always has been, multi-lingual. One cannot function in the business arena with only one language, and in any sort of public service bilingualism is vital. SA now has, since 1994 eleven official languages instead of just two. and most black people are in fact tri-lingual at least. The language in the area in which I live is mainly Afrikaans,and the local language of the black folk is Setstwana, the domestic workers speak Afrikaans mostly. The only so -called British South Aficans are those people born in Britain and who carry two passports, British and South African. This is permitted, the only proviso being that one leaves and re-enters SA with the SA passport. I have friends who have both. I do not because I have never taken SA citizenship. and one does not automatically acquire it on marriage to a S. African. I do have an ID document which states I am a non SA citizen. I am classified as a permanent resident and my passport has a stamp in it to that effect. I am not allowed to vote in elections. Soweto is a town in itself and is not considered a suburb and has some very wealthy areas, and is certainly not all slums. Afrikaans people do not refer to themselves as Boers, and it would be rather rude to do so. It is just a word meaning a farmer these days, and I guess the majority of farmers are Afikaans. In KwaZulu Natal many of the farmers are English speakers and as IsiZulu is the language there many of them speak Zulu, in fact as I understand it many farmers do speak the vernacular applicable to the area in which they live. In SA when a person is asked are you English or Afrikaans? The question really means what language is your home language, and not what is your Nationality! Hope this has cleared up a few points and is not too long!

Traude S
September 7, 2003 - 01:11 pm
JEAN, many thanks for this pertinent information which should help dispel some erroneous conceptions we have here about SA, fed by and reliant on TV as we are from morning to night. There's more to say but I'll off my soapbox.

Regarding my post about the black kindergartner : There is increasing outrage. Was this an honest mistake? Deliberate? This child, you see, LIVES in predominantly white Wellesley .. What irony! How saad!

kiwi lady
September 7, 2003 - 05:37 pm
Its an overt racist assumption that the kindergartner was black and therefore he must come from a poor black neighbourhood!

Auckland is not immune from ghetto type housing. However today its more a choice who stays there or who leaves. As the people in this predominantly Pacific Island suburb immerse themselves in their cultures there is now an attitude of pride and the Weekend markets are visited by people of all races as there are bargains to be had and atmosphere to be soaked up. There is pride emerging about their suburb and there are artists, singers, writers and sports people who have come from this community. Perhaps now there is the same sort of pride emerging from Soweto. I know there are some famous black SAfricans who have elected to stay in Soweto. I do believe those societies who have elected to preserve and foster their own languages and culture thrive and grow and produce leaders. They also foster self esteem and pride in their young people.

Traude S
September 7, 2003 - 06:36 pm
CAROLYN: The successful integration of immigrants in NZ is gratifying, and I say "more power to you". I wonder though: Is it easier for the races to "blend" in emigration ? I could imagine that the shift of power and the radical, unparalleled changes within SA may have been more wrenching than the absorption of immigrants into another nation. But I may be wrong.

kiwi lady
September 7, 2003 - 08:09 pm
Traude all is not perfect here. We have a lot of resentment about an influx of mainland chinese immigrants - out of proportion to other races. The main problem we have is with the culture of corruption they bring with them. To them corruption is a way of life but it has not been tolerated here. We have to date been a relatively corruption free society confirmed by an IMF report done a couple of years ago. We have Asian Crime here and kidnappings which are aimed at their own community on the rise. Prior to this we had few kidnappings. My stepfather interrupted a kidnapping attempt on one of our main roads recently. Asians attempting to kidnap a young Asian Male who was obviously wealthy. The would be kidnappers fled - thank goodness guns are not easy to get here!

Our racism is open however and does not usually involve physical attack. We are more inclined to state our feelings on talkback radio -or write to the newspaper. I think our govts have done all they can to ensure equality its now up to us on a one to one basis to overcome prejudice. I think all things being equal we do live pretty much in harmony with one another on a one to one basis. I live in a multicultural suburb and I love it. The street I live in is like a mini United Nations. I met some new immigrants from India the other week at a tree planting in our street. They spoke good English and were very friendly. We have Maori, Filipino, Samoan, Nui Island, Chinese, and Europeans in our street. The extended family who look out for me are Maori - four of the same family live in this street plus their adopted Auntie ( who never had any children). I feel very safe here and resist all attempts by my sons to move me. They want to build me a brand new home with an attached self contained rental unit. I have told them I will not move! I have the studio to let here where I am. There is something to be said for having neighbours who watch out for my safety. I could move and find the neighbours keep themselves to themselves as often happens and I would find myself very lonely and insecure.

Carolyn

Lorrie
September 7, 2003 - 08:25 pm
Jean, thank you for a very illuminating post about the South Africa that most of us do not know and have not been able to visualize from the media. I was surprised to read that Soweta, for instance, is more than a dingy ghetto, as we are led to believe, or so I assume.

Carolyn, I have learned more about New Zealand since you joined us here at SeniorNet than I ever even thought about before. It's wonderful to read about your countries right "from the horse's mouth", both of you. I'm still waiting to see the movie "Whale Riders" that you praised and that looks so interesting.

Another movie I found very fascinating was one called "Once Were Warriors," and it seemed to stress on the way some of the Maori people have modernized their lives to an extent that may of the old ways had been forgotten. A wonderful movie.

Lorrie

Lorrie
September 7, 2003 - 08:51 pm
We now leave Capetown ( in a real hurry, too, at least Lurie didn't waste any time getting away) and head into the country near a town called Salem, in the Eastern Cape.

There is something about this daughter that I liked immediately. She seems a very stalwart, hard-working woman, a former "Hippie", it would seem, and it is obvious that David Lurie adores her.

The professor and his daughter have never had an easy relationship, despite his fierce love for her. He is conservative, solitary, she is lesbian, somewhat leftist, and also solitary, living alone on a small farm in a dangerous area among blacks and armed Afrikaners.

There is a hint of danger to come when her father, after learning that Lucy's lover had left, asked her If she wasn't nervous. (page 60) and she replied that she wasn't fearful because of all the dogs that she kept for people in her kennels.

What did you think about Petrus? And Lucy's friend, Bev Shaw?

Lorrie

kiwi lady
September 7, 2003 - 10:23 pm
Now the daughter is a woman after my own heart (apart from her sexual orientation). She is very down to earth and caring. I felt she was trying to really come to grips with living in the new South Africa. As a dog lover myself, her friend Bev appealed to me too. As for Petrus - I will have to think on about him!

Carolyn

Hats
September 8, 2003 - 04:44 am
I like Lucy too. Lorrie, she does make me think of the "Hippie" generation. Lucy is creative and at peace with herself. She is described as a "solid country woman." I think she must be a very friendly person.

Carolyn, I have to agree with you about Petrus. I am hoping that he was not involved with the horrible gang crime that happened at the farm. I hope he is there at the farm with the intention of protecting and being kind to Lucy. He does need an alibi. He seemed to disappear at the perfect time.

What does Petrus' name mean? Maybe the meaning of his name would give us some idea about his character.

jeber
September 8, 2003 - 11:06 am
From here on, David does show a different and better side to his nature. Did I miss the mention of "armed Afrikaners" Lorrie? I see you mention that Lucy lives in a dangerous area "among blacks and armed Afrikaners": do you have the impression that the latter may be a danger to Lucy ? Lucy does say she bought a rifle from a neigbour, but gives no details as to who the neighbour is. The farmers and smallholders in the area would most certainly come to help in an emergency if they were aware of it, and they would not be a danger to Lucy rather the reverse , they would be inclined to be protective. Most people on farms and smallholdings have to be armed in these times. When Lucy speaks of a neighbour, that neigbour may be very many miles away certainly not right next door, and I would imagine that such a neighbour would advise Lucy to have a gun for protection. Petrus though is another matter altogether, even he admits times are dangerous. Is he to be trusted one wonders at this stage in the book, I think not, but that is just my opinion of course. Petrus is just a common name and does not have any particular meaning.

Jean

Hats
September 8, 2003 - 11:22 am
When I first read the name Petrus, I thought of the place in the Middle East called Petra. I think Petra means "rock." I can understand if the Middle Eastern name Petra is not a derivation of Petrus.

horselover
September 8, 2003 - 06:08 pm
When David Lurie arrives at his daughter's farm, it seems like a happy, peaceful place to live. Lucy takes him on a tour and shows him the kennels where the dogs are excited to see her. She tells him about the flowers and vegetables that she sells at the local market. She tells him about Petrus whom she describes as "quite a fellow." Lucy and her father appear to get along well, and she does not hold his recent troubles against him. The biggest problem seems to be getting accustomed to the dogs barking during the night. Life could not be more simple. Because of this, I found myself totally shocked by the horrible attack, and the way it completely shatters the life Lucy has created for herself. Maybe it was all an illusion she had created. Her trust in Petrus and his gratitude for her help may be misplaced. Still Lucy says she will "go on as before," a strange and probably impossible notion. When she says, "How can a doctor take care of all eventualities," it casts an ominous shadow over the future.

Traude S
September 8, 2003 - 06:44 pm
Thank you for your posts, sorry to join you late.

HATS, your question about the name Petrus is worth considering. Actually, Petrus is the German word for Peter = St. Peter, the Rock; Petra is indeed the female word ending. Children are still given Biblical names, but is Coetzee's choice of that name deliberate and meant in an ironic sense ? because the Petrus in "Disgrace" is certainly no rock.

The sense of isolation and sheer loneliness on the smallholding is palpable, and so is the feeling of danger. The white farmers who are staying put feel the danger and live in fear of usurpers; that's why they are armed. But how long can they hold out ? Under the circumstances Lucy's life without human companionship seems almost impossible to fathom.

Regarding that Saturday afternoon "in SA a time consecrated to men and their pleasures". (pg. 75)

Lucy is reading in bed, in the front room David watches soccer on TV; the commentary alternates between Sotho and Xhosa, neither of which he understands, and he nods off. When he wakes up, Petrus is beside him on the sofa with a bottle of beer in hand and has turned up the volume.

How did that strike you ? Is the handwriting on the wall ?

Lucy has her bare feet firmly planted on the soil, but what is in her heart ? What motivates her ? Love of the country ? The need to put one foot in front of the other ? Idealism ? Fatalism ?

We discover that she is not one to bear her soul, but father and daughter do have some good talks, some verbal sparring, David "lectures"-- and somehow Lucy emerges as the wiser of the two.

Back tomorrow.

Lorrie
September 8, 2003 - 06:48 pm
Jean, you didn't miss anything, the expression "dangerous place among backs and armed Afrikaners" was entirely my own. I kept thinking of poor Lucy, before David comes, living there with apparently resentful blacks on one hand (more about that later) and the well-armed Ettinger neighbor on the other. I couldn't help but feel the situation seemed very hazardous. We meet Ettlinger in the 12th chapter, and yes, he was very helpful to David and his daughter after that brutal attack.

Like Horselover, I was appalled to come upon the tale of the assault, both with what happened to Lucy, and the painful way that the attackers dealt with Lurie. The words leading up to this had been so gentle, descriptive of the serene country life that Lurie was now experiencing, and then WHAM! we are plunged right into this horrendous scene. When they were walking the dogs back, I actually felt a shiver of apprehension when the the three strangers appeared, and with short, terse, sentences, the author drew a scene of intense suspense. I can see now how the tenor of this book will change, I think we will see a complete metamorphis in the professor. More later.

Lorrie

Traude S
September 8, 2003 - 07:00 pm
HORSELOVER, saw your posted as I edited mine. Thank you for your input.

You have referred to the second disgrace in the book, the horrible attack that could have killed David.

Was Petrus conveniently absent on purpose ? Did he know what was going to happen ? What does that say about him and his intentions regarding Lucy's farm ?

Will join you in the afternoon; I have to drive to a meeting and must leave the house early to avoid commuter traffic.

Traude S
September 8, 2003 - 07:29 pm
Hello LORRIE, you and I posted at the same time.

There are quite a few surprises in this short book, and the writing is masterly IMHO.

There was no instant "new dawn" of equality, harmony and prosperity for everyone after apartheid. The characters in this book, ten years after the reorganization, are still living with the uncertainties of daily life in a culture remade, often violently, from the bottom up, where nothing is the same.

Hats
September 8, 2003 - 08:06 pm
Traude, I agree with you. I think Petrus, so far, is "certainly no rock." Maybe Coetzee did mean his name in an "ironic" sense.

When I read about Lucy on the farm, I immediately felt a sense of fear. Her thoughts are idealistic, and the place seems utopian. "a family of ducks coasts serenely, past the beehives, and through the garden: flowerbeds and winter vegetables - cauliflowers, potatoes, beetroot, chard, onions....Rains for the past two years have been good, the water table has risen."

With all of this serene beauty around Lucy, I could not rid myself of a sense of fear or dread, of something going wrong. I felt she might be in a dangerous situation. Lorrie, I felt your same feelings. "When they were walking the dogs back, I actually felt a shiver of apprehension when the three strangers appeared...."

I had no idea that Lucy would live through such a brutal situation. The second rape seems, if possible, far more brutal than the first. In the first rape, Melanie seemed to deal with mixed feelings about Lurie.

This rape is fast, quick and just plain out there. There is nothing to wonder about. Lucy is brutally raped, her property is raped and her dad is hurt too. Lucy DEFINITELY did not deserve the rape by those unknown men.

As a matter of fact, the scene is so brutal that I read through it quickly. Now, I will have the stomach to read it again.

Hats
September 8, 2003 - 09:18 pm
The farmhouse scene remains too brutal for words. For me a second reading is just as difficult as a first reading

Lorrie
September 9, 2003 - 08:19 am
In the past few years, our understanding of what rape really is has grown much. Contrary to previous thinking, the act of rape is not for sexual gratification, indeed, the perpetrator usually actually hates women, it is about POWER, among other things. There is a much deeper motivation here as to what happened to Lucy and her father, and it would appear to be about "pay-back" or "You did it to me, now I can do it to you". I know we will find out more about these underlying motivations later.

As a woman, I can sympathize with Lucy's withdrawal, but it does seem a pity that she can't bring herself to accept the compassion that her father is offering.

This whole segment is fraught with emotion, and I believe Coetzee handles it very well in his sparse prose, without becoming maudlin.

Lorrie

Hats
September 9, 2003 - 08:50 am
I think Lurie, remains basically, an unchanged man. I think this is why Lucy can not reveal her deepest feelings about the rape to him.

jeber
September 9, 2003 - 10:24 am
I too found Lucy's reactions extraordinary, accepting the circumstances as she does seems almost unbelievable. I do think that David is showing compassion towards his daughter and this compassion is underlined further on in the book. This sort of danger is ever present for a woman on her own in the circumstances in which Lucy is living. I don't think that there is any hidden meaning in the name given to Petrus, it is a very common name for such people, I may be wrong, but being on the spot so to speak it just seemed to me to be a very ordinary and probable name. Yes I agree and felt the same about the impending menace when the three were encountered on the walk.

Jean

Traude S
September 9, 2003 - 12:40 pm
LORRIE, I fully agree with your post.

The act of the rape (by all three men) is made infinitely worse because Lucy is lesbian - something Petrus, for example, is bound to have known. We cannot know to the end of the book what made Lucy decide not to make a full report to the police. Would it have helped ? Changed anthing ? And if she had, might that not have deepened her violation (in the true sense of the word) and her sense of shame ? Ettinger and Bev Shaw support Lucy, as does David of course, but isn't there a conspiracy of silence, a complete denial of what REALLY happened?

Yes, HATS, the reader is devastated by the brutal description.

horselover
September 9, 2003 - 04:39 pm
I don't think David Lurie joins in the conspiracy of silence. He wants to tell the police about the rape. He also wants to confront Petrus.

I have been in situations where I refrained from confronting or complaining to neighbors about minor problems for the sake of keeping the peace, but Lucy's attitude about Petrus's unexplained disappearance at the time of the attack is beyond understanding. Her father doesn't understand it, and neither do I.

Traude S
September 9, 2003 - 05:57 pm
HORSELOVER, you are right, of course. I didn't mean to imply that David was part of "the conspiracy of silence", for clearly he was not : he was for telling the truth and a full, unvarnished report, but Lucy implored, in fact instructed , him to hold his peace, and he did.

kiwi lady
September 9, 2003 - 10:26 pm
I think Lucy did not want the police informed because she did not want to cause further violence. Maybe some sort of vigilante action by the white farmers in the neighbourhood. The more I think about this book the more I think the person who said the story is an allegory may be right. The story of the new SA struggling with its past and struggling to make a better more harmonious future. Is Lucy sacrificing herself for peace in her world?

Carolyn

Lorrie
September 10, 2003 - 06:40 am
Many years ago, my room-mate in college was gang-raped one night coming home from a campus activity. She was devastated, of course, and I did the best I could to comfort her, which was difficult, short of holding her hand and accompanying her to the police station after we left the emergency ward.

In those days there was not the rape-conciousness of the victim as there is now. There was no counselor at the hospital, no police were standing by to take a report, and when we did go to the station, their chauvinistic attitude was shocking. To a man they all implied that she had "asked" for it, there were no female officers assigned to take the report, and my roommaate was forced to relate all the horrifying details of the crime to a roomful of men who were obviously tittilated by what she described. It was ghastly, to say the least, and the effect on my roomie was almost as bad as the rape itself. Things are much different, now, of course.

They never did catch the perpetrators (they were from outside the campus, apparently) but I wonder how much of an effort was made.

If Lucy had any such misgivings about how a report of what happened to her would be received, I can well understand her reticence.

Lorrie

Carolyn, this is the second mention we have had of an allegory. In what way do you see the book as "allegorical?"

Traude S
September 10, 2003 - 08:42 am
Lorrie, it was I who said that the book has been described as allegorical, as representative of the country itself. I'm rushing out for a test and will further elaborate in the afternoon.

jeber
September 10, 2003 - 10:27 am
Hats, I don't think Melanie was raped , I think in the book it was described as "not quite rape", she did acquiesce, and later on did approach Lurie, asking him to allow her to spend some time at his house---would she have done that if she had actually suffered a rape? There is no comparison whatsoever with what happened to Lucy, she was raped under horrific circumstances by three probably none too clean men, resulting in preganancy and probable HIV infection. Rape is a very common occurence sad to say, from infants to old women, but the victims are treated more humanely now. Incidentally I heard on the radio this morning that there are 5.3 million people infected with HIV in this country, and that is those that are known about.

Jean

kiwi lady
September 10, 2003 - 10:48 am
Lorrie I explained the allegory in my last post - The last full paragraph.

Carolyn

Hats
September 10, 2003 - 11:15 am
Jean, please read post# 195. This post might give a clear idea of my feelings about Lucy and Melanie.

horselover
September 10, 2003 - 05:16 pm
If the book is an allegory representing the country itself, then perhaps these violent rapists have chosen Lucy, who desperately wants peace, as the receptacle for the seed of a future in which the races will live in peaceful harmony at last.

Melanie may be the perfect example of why those with power or authority over someone are generally forbidden from seeking a sexual relationship with them. It is difficult to tell, under such conditions, whether there is real consent. Just as a hostage may feel compelled to cooperate, and may seem to do so voluntarily, a student may feel she has no choice. If someone can take away your job, or your chance for a degree, there is implicit coercion.

Traude S
September 10, 2003 - 06:59 pm



Friends, today I had one of those appointments one dutifully and meticulously prepares for and waits forever to begin and, mercifully, end in due course. Well, I was supremely prepared for the wait with a pad and pen at the ready. Actually, I've come up with an epiphany or two ...

See you in he morning.

Lorrie
September 11, 2003 - 09:12 am
"The novel has larger allegorical implications, like all Coetzee's writing, in its overturning of the old master-servant relations, and the triumphant, if ambivalent, assertion of postcolonial power. It also reminds us that we do not yet have a new South Africa; rather, we have a confused agenda of simultaneous endings and inaugurations. Disgrace's exploration of that confusion is profound."

David Attwell is a professor of English at the University of Natal in South Africa, currently on exchange at the University of Texas at Austin.

Lorrie

kiwi lady
September 11, 2003 - 09:29 am
Yes Lorrie my feelings about this book exactly! I think both sides are struggling in this new democracy. Lucy represents those in the community who will sacrifice anything to make the new SA work. They are desperate to make it work and also they have faced the demons of the past, accept them , take responsibility for them and want very much to move on as an integrated society.

Carolyn

Lorrie
September 11, 2003 - 01:53 pm
It's interesting, isn't it, the two different responses that two different generations fashion to this dreadful occurence? Lucy may be the more radical of the two, but I begin to see the way in which she will change her father's vision.

I was tremendously impressed by the way this author, describing Lurie's frustration and sense of powerlessnes, boldly presents Lurie's racist fears. Standing on the toilet seat, peering out the bathroom window, he can hear them talking, most probably discussing his fate: (page 95)

"he speaks Italian, he speaks French, but French and Italian will not save him here in darkest Africa. He is helpless, an Aunt Sally, a figure from a cartoon, a missionary in cassock and topi waiting with clasped hands and upcast eyes while the savages jaw away in their own lingo preparatory to plunging him into their boiling cauldron."

Lorrie

Lorrie
September 11, 2003 - 02:01 pm
Jean, or Carolyn:

Have you any idea of what is meant by Coetzee's reference in that last passage to "Aunt Sally"?

Lorrie

kiwi lady
September 11, 2003 - 02:44 pm
I am not sure about that reference. The Salvation army is known as the Sallies. I think Aunt Sally was also the coconut shy figure. The coconut was on a stand sometimes dressed with hat etc like a lady. It sat there while punters aimed balls at it. It could not deflect the balls. It was a powerless object. Maybe that Aunt Sally is the one referred to. This is something that is not much seen nowdays maybe still at village church fetes?

Traude S
September 11, 2003 - 03:05 pm
LORRIE,

According to a fascinating source on the net I just happened upon, "An Aunt Sally", a British slang expression, (pg. 95) is " an easy target for criticism ."

This source lists other literary and historical references, terms and quotations in DISGRACE. Let me try to locate it again. Back later.

Traude S
September 11, 2003 - 03:38 pm
First of all, LORRIE, thank you for your # 211 and reference to Prof. David Atwell, currently on exchange at the U. of Texas, and for quoting his remarks. That is one reference I did not find.

As for the "Aunt Sally", please go to


http://www.quinion.com/words/qa/qa-aun1.htm.


More to come.

Traude S
September 11, 2003 - 03:51 pm
An unexpected (unlooked-for) find is a South Africa Administrative Map which shows not only the vastness of the country but the "subdivisions" as it were, and the bordering countries. If you are interested, please go to
http://www-users.york.ac.uk/~ad15/SApolitics.htm



More later

Hats
September 11, 2003 - 04:31 pm
Lorrie and Traude, thank you for the helpful links.

Traude S
September 11, 2003 - 05:58 pm
HATS, Everyone !

With gratitude I'll sign off now, hoping to be in the proper frame of mind tomorrow.

Remember, you are all precious to me.

Lorrie
September 11, 2003 - 06:44 pm
Traude:

your #218 Post with the map of South Africa is quite helpful, especially with the Contents link below it, which, when I clicked it, brought me to a very interesting essay on the strides that the present government has made nationally with gender equalization, altough less so in the rural areas.

However, I read something there that I found to be relevant to our discussion, and wanted to share it with you:(From the same essay on the gender gap)

"South Africa is reported to have the highest occurrence of rape and the most brutal sexual violence in the world, with violent gang rape on the increase, especially in areas dominated by gangs and organized crime networks. Coupled with the fact that South Africa has one of the fastest growing rates of HIV infection in the world, these violent sexual assaults on women and children constitute a national crisis. Social analysts are striving to explain the dramatic escalation of violence against women and children."

What happened to Lucy is not that rare an occurence?

Lorrie

kiwi lady
September 11, 2003 - 07:57 pm
I read somewhere that many men on the African continent believe if they have sex with a virgin they will not catch HIV however many of these men are probably already carrying the virus. Whether this has something to do with the sexual assaults I do not know.

Lorrie
September 12, 2003 - 01:02 pm
I am still bewildered by Lucy's response to what happened to her. The rape causes her to seek refuge in a damaged silence, which her father finds difficult to understand, and then in fatalism. She doesn't want to press charges, and refuses to move away from the area, partly because that will seem like a defeat, and partly because she begins to see the rape as the necessary price for her continued occupation of the land. The attack is a kind of historical reparation, or so she seems to think. Do you agree?

Lorrie

Hats
September 12, 2003 - 02:30 pm
Maybe Lucy remains because she has given so much to the land. Her friends, Bev and Ettinger, are in this place too. It's pretty hard to pull up roots and start over again no matter what the circumstances. I think she has given her heart and soul to that place. I think Lucy has made peace with the fact that to live on this land will not be easy. I wonder if she feels that she is doing penance for her father's past deeds. Does she just have a pioneer's spirit? Nothing worth gaining is gained without struggle and pain.

Maybe she does not make a report to the police because she fears the men and boy will return in revenge.

Traude S
September 12, 2003 - 03:02 pm
LORRIE, CAROLYN, HATS, Everyone!

Lucy's decision not to report the (gang) rape is baffling - and incomprehensible, to David, and to the reader. But there are hints - Father and daughter talk about the property and its boundaries, the rains, the water table, "a frontier farmer of the new breed", thinks the father. "In the old days, cattle and maize. Today, dogs and daffodils. The more things change the more they remain the same. History repeating itself, though in a more modest vein. Perhaps history has learned a lesson." (pg. 62)



Later David says, "... is this what you want in life"?, waving a hand toward the garden, toward the house with sunlight glinting from its roof. "It will do", replies Lucy quietly. (pg. 70)

David reports on market day in the same spare, dispassionate voice : There are three African women selling milk, butter and soup bones; an old Afrikaner couple, Tante Miems and Oom Koos, have potatoes and onions to sell, like Lucy; her potatoes are washed. Koos and Miems's are stll speckled with earth.

In the course of the morning Lucy takes in almost 500 rand. There is plenty of trade also in the milk and meat stall; the Afrikaner couple, seated side by side, wooden and unsmiling, does less well.

David is introduced to Bev Shaw and her husband, and cares for neither, nor for their home; his physical description of Bev borders on the cruel. He has no interest in animal welfare; his remarks about animal welfare people are cutting, bitter and opinionated (pg. 73). There is a telling exchange beween David and Lucy on pg. 74, "... You do not approve of friends like Bev and Bill Shaw because they are not going to lead me to a higher life ..."

David does go to the clinic; Chapter Ten is a devastating 'prelude' to worse and personal degradation in Chapter Eleven, about which more later.

Earlier I suffered through a very long session with a very eager salesman of replacement windows who tried (in vein) every trick in the book to get me to sign on the dotted line, Today !! He looked dejected when he finally left, and I felt almost sorry for him.

horselover
September 12, 2003 - 05:59 pm
Someone published a book recently which advances the thesis that when an elite minority in a country benefits disproportionately from globalization, and monopolizes most of the country's wealth and resources while the indiginous majority suffers, this creates an explosive situation. Very often, rape and murder, as well as robbery, are the chosen means of revenge. SA would seem to fit this profile.

Traude S
September 12, 2003 - 06:58 pm
HORSELOVER, yes that profile seems to fit SA.

CAROLYN, it seems I too have heard the myth about congress with virgins before. It is well known that AIDS has raced through SA like wildfire and the Prime Minister (or the President?) refused not only to admit to the facts but help as well. That has since changed, I read.

Off the subject : Today's (Friday's) Boston Globe carried a news item about King Mswati of Swaziland who married his 12th wife yesterday, less than a week after he picked bride No.11 from thousands of young Swazi maidens. Mswati's 12th bride was identified as 18-year old Nomonde Fihla, who was crowned the first princess in the Miss Swaziland 2003 pageant last month. In an interview at the time, she told a magazine she did not believe in polygamy.

Lucy and David react differently to the attack: she becomes purposeful, he is filled with emotion. When he tries to reach out to her, she does not reciprocate. In the morning she tells David she is going back to the farm, and when he protests that it's not safe and not a good idea, she answers with determination : "It was never safe, and it's not an idea, good or bad. I'm not going back for the sake of an idea. I'm just going back". Not her father's little girl, not any longer, he thinks.

Traude S
September 12, 2003 - 07:20 pm
Incidentally, I looked up "dagga" (pg. 60); it is equivalent to Marihuana. The commune members grew it at the time "between stands of mealies". What are mealies, I wonder ?

I also checked "donga" (pg. 98); it means ravine.

We have not even begun considering David's forte, the Romantic Poets, particularly his preoccupation with Byron. But I checked the literary reference on pg. 16 "From fairest creature we desire increase/ That thereby beauty's rose might never die" = it is Sonnet 1 of Shakespeare's Love Sonnets.
http://www.albionmich.com/inspiration/fromfairestcreatures.html

kiwi lady
September 12, 2003 - 09:13 pm
His attitude to women is at odds with his love of Byron don't you think?

Carolyn

Lorrie
September 12, 2003 - 09:55 pm
Much as we have learned to dislike Lurie, after reading of how badly he was burned, and the injuries he suffered we cannot but feel a twinge of pity for him.

When the author describes his weakness in the tub when he tries to get out, (page 103) and the necessity of calling Bev Shaw's husband to help him I felt a lot of sympathy.

Horselover, in your post #226 you said," Someone published a book recently which advances the thesis that when an elite minority in a country benefits disproportionately from globalization, and monopolizes most of the country's wealth and resources while the indiginous majority suffers, this creates an explosive situation. Very often, rape and murder, as well as robbery, are the chosen means of revenge. SA would seem to fit this profile."

There are those who would say that that thesis actually applies to our federal government now.

Lorrie

Hats
September 12, 2003 - 10:17 pm
When David Lurie repeats any bit of literature, I feel uncomfortable. I also feel that Lucy feels uncomfortable talking to him about the rape because she knows his past feelings towards women. It is hard for her to understand or to accept any of his new values. Lucy more than likely remembers her father's earlier words.

"Recantation, self criticism, public apology. I'm old-fashioned, I would prefer simply to be put against a wall and shot. Have done with it."

"Nothing to be proud of: a prejudice that has settled in his mind, settled down. His mind has become a refuge for old thoughts, idle, indigent, with nowhere else to go. He ought to chase them out, sweep the premises clean. But he does not care to do so, or does not care enough."

I know Lucy's father clearly loves her, and I feel she believes in that love, but his old ideas are still ringing in Lucy's head. Now, that he is changing, growing, it is like talking to a totally different person. I think Lucy is waging an inner battle. This battle is about the new and old side of her father. In her silence, she is readjusting her thinking.

jeber
September 13, 2003 - 05:56 am
I have just caught up with the messages from the past few days. Mealies are corn-on-the cob, maize. One sees hawkers roasting them over fires and selling them: but of course maize is a staple diet in sub-Saharan Africa. Fields are called "lands" here and the mealie lands are extensive in this Province (North West) and also in the Free State.

Jean

jeber
September 13, 2003 - 06:09 am
Apropos rape in SA: my post #206 does mention this and also the high rate of HIV infection which prevails.

Jean

jeber
September 13, 2003 - 08:08 am
P.S. Another website which may be of interest is to be found at www.southafrica.net. The first link on the page is "about South Africa" and it has amongst its information demographic details . I see the time on this post is given as 8.08am whereas it is 5.05pm here!

Jean

horselover
September 13, 2003 - 05:59 pm
Traude, Your story about King Mswati of Swaziland reminded me of "Anna and the King of Siam (that scene where all the wives gather together to be taught English).

Yes, Lorrie, that thesis could apply to our federal government. But in the U.S., the government does try to minimize the gap between rich and poor so as to avert the sort of violence we are talking about. Still, we have had the Watts riots, and the riots that followed the Rodney King incident. The author seems to think the thesis applies more to developing countries where democracy is relatively new, and the institutions which support democracy (the courts, property rights, etc.) are weak.

Kiwi Lady, You said Lurie's attitude to women is at odds with his love of Byron. I don't see why. Byron's attitude was pretty much the same -- love 'em and leave 'em, preferably after they are no longer young.

kiwi lady
September 13, 2003 - 10:06 pm
What I meant Horselover was the content of Byron's work. David never appeared to me to be a romantic. I know Byron was a rake.

Lorrie
September 13, 2003 - 10:30 pm
&#65279;Do you think Coetzee wants us to see Lucy's rape as a punishment for Lurie's undesired sexual encounter with Melanie? Do you feel that this an instance of the sins of the father being visited upon the child?

Lorrie

I think there will be more about Lurie s fascination with Lord Byron a little later on in the book, along with the author's tale of how the Professor composes an opera.

Traude S
September 14, 2003 - 08:25 am
LORRIE, your question about the sins of the fathers being visited upon the sons (or daughters) is certainly a valid consideration, one which we'll have to ponder till the end of this somber story. It begins with a portentous indignity that leaves the reader breathless and outraged - yet there is more unspeakable horror to come.

JEAN, thank you for your posts # 233 and 234. I have reread your # 206 also. Your links and your presence here are important to us, precisely because we do not want to make unwarranted assumptions from afar and come to the wrong conclusions, which would be presumptuous.

My hardcover book jacket is totally white, while our header is taken, I believe, from the paperback cover. It shows a probably indigenous animal. Would you, or anyone else, be kind enough to identify it ?

On the Byron "connection". I have come to think of David Lurie as a romantic at heart, a modern man who for reasons never spelled out in the book is frustrated, dissatisfied on a personally level, and incapable of sustaining a permanent relationship. His chosen field are the romantic poets, who are his refuge in a literal sense; his obsession is with Byron. Both were rakes, both had led dissipated lives - Byron's excesses are historic knwoledge, and Lurie has admitted his casual, indiscriminate promiscuity.

I believe the parallelism Lurie (or Coetzee) sees is based on the fact that Lurie sees Melanie as a kind of eleventh-hour salvation, and so does Byron in Teresa. There's the image of a triangle : three wild geese returning every year to Lucy's dam (Chapter Eleven), and he thinks : Three. That would be a solution of sorts. He and Lucy and Melanie. Or he and Melanie and Soraya.

Teresa, seventeen, is Byron's last love, "the real thing" we would call it, she is married to a man more than twice her age = a triangle. There will be more of this later, as LORRIE said.

Lorrie
September 14, 2003 - 10:03 am
Tomorrow we go on to Chapter 13, and follow Lurie and his daughter through the tortuous process of picking up the pieces. It's interesting to see the slow process of the change in Lurie: (page 107)
"The events of yesterday have shocked him to the depths. The trembling, the weakness, are only the first and more superficial signs of that shock. He has a sense that inside him a vital organ has been bruised, abused, perhaps even to his heart. For the first time he has a taste of what it will be like to be an old man, tired to the bone, without hopes, without desires, indifferent to the future."

In all of this book, in my own estimation, the most poignant scene is the one on page 110, where Lurie must dig the hole and bury the corpses of the six dogs the three men had slaughtered. He notices that one of the dogs was still baring his bloody teeth. Coetzee writes, " Contemptible, yet exhilarting, probably, in a country where dogs are bred to snarl at the mere smell of a black man." A very revealing footnote.

Lorrie

Lorrie
September 14, 2003 - 10:06 am
Forgive me for posting this referral to Chapter 13 a few hours early. If anyone else were to do this I would order ten lashes with a wet noodle, so why should I be an exception?

Lorrie

horselover
September 14, 2003 - 10:28 am
Traude, My paperback cover, like the hardcover, is completely white. The animal on the header cover is probably a wild dog of some sort, amybe a dingo.

Lurie's description of what it will be like to be an old man, "tired to the bone, without hopes, without desires, indifferent to the future" scares me as well as him. I hope this is not what it would be like. I have seen people in their eighties hiking, mountain climbing, doing all sorts of things they have always wanted to do. A woman in my Bridge Club, who is eighty-nine, is as smart as a whip and can remember every card that is played. I think Lurie's depression about his vision of advancing age is based in part on his having devoted so much of his life to the pursuit of sex--something which will by nature diminish as he ages.

Traude S
September 14, 2003 - 11:11 am
HORSELOVER, indeed. Diminishing capabilities ('capabilities', is that the word?). But they are a major concern for Lurie about the aging process. But Lord have mercy, he is only 52 !! What does he have to complain aboutat age 52 ?

I think Lurie is self-conscious, perhaps (profoundly) insecure. To wit, on that cold Saturday morning David when David and Lucy set off for market day, he wondered whether she noticed his nose was dripping ...

Within the context of this book we, thankfully, need only to consider David, where the complexity is obvious, and we don't need to look for generalizations.

Hats
September 15, 2003 - 12:48 am
Not only is Lurie confused about aging, he is confused about almost everything: how to adjust to country life, friendships, not to mention the way in which Lucy is changing. It seems like Lurie is living Lucy's life as well as his own life, at least, until she is able to heal.

jeber
September 15, 2003 - 11:00 am
Lorrie, you are the only one to mention the dogs,the slaugter of them showed to me the callous,sadistic nature of the individuals. I think the primary aim of the three was actaually robbery, and the other evils were just that---evils.. David does show great concern for his daughter, yet she seems to have very little compassion for him, his burns though superficial would have been very painful nevertheless. Like you Traude, I thought, gosh, despair of that magnitude at 52!! David's personal life has been a disaster, two failed marriages and various sexual encounters, and then his emergence from his tight little world of academia, an emergence which was forced upon him. The beginnings of despair,seem to have started when his field of expertise was done away with when rationisation of the University curriculum came about. Now he is faced with life "outside", and finds it difficult to come to terms with the fact that Bill Shaw regards him as a friend. His world has been so different from the people with whom he is now coming in contact My book is a hard cover version, and the dust jacket is the coloured one as depicted on this site. The dog just looks like mongrel of some kind--- wild dogs are regarded as an endangered species here and are in game reserves. Dingoes are not found in Africa-- I believe they are peculiar to Australia. On a lighter note, it is generally felt that white owned dogs bark at blacks, and vice versa!!

kiwi lady
September 15, 2003 - 11:29 am
Lucy is not lacking in compassion I believe but she is in shock. The crime against her and the inward rage, humiliation etc lacks any hope of closure as the perpetrators will never be punished. I know it is her choice but feel she is a sacrificial lamb in her attempt to keep the peace in the world she lives in.

Carolyn

Lorrie
September 15, 2003 - 07:04 pm
On page 116 we have another one of those infuriating non-English sequiturs that Coetzee is so good at sprinkling through his narrative. ” baas en Klaas” I assume it means something relating to master and servant, as he mentions “Just like the good old days.” (Which is meant in sarcasm in this case, I’m sure. Jean?

I am really suspicious of this character Petrus. There is something very underhanded about the way he responds to Lurie’s announcement, and I have a strong feeling that he is definitely after Lucy’s piece of land. We can tell he’s extremely ambitious, and I think he is picturing himself as a future big land-owner just like the people for whom he once worked.

In Chapter Fifteen, the incident of the two sheep meant to be slaughtered struck me as peculiarly funny. In Lurie’s new awakening of compassion for animals, he is outraged that Petus leaves them tethered on a bare patch of ground, and moves them up near the dam where they can graze. Petrus moves them back.

In discussing Petrus, Lurie tells Lucy: “I’m not sure I like the way he does things—bringing the slaughter-beasts home to acquaint them with the people who are going to eat them.” A new bond is coming into existence between him and the two sheep, another indication of how this man is changing.

Lorrie

Traude S
September 16, 2003 - 08:26 am
CAROLYN - sacrificial lamb, indeed. But she takes on the role voluntarily !

LORRIE, indeed many of Lurie's thoughts and descriptions are expressed in bitter, sarcastic, cynical terms. As for the non-English quotes I'll be glad to translate them where I find them.

On pg. 116, "Baas" means boss, and "Klaas" is class. JEAN, please correct me if I am wrong.

This is clearly a cynical reference to the olden days when the boss gave the orders and the help carried them out: but pp. 116-118 show the role reversal on market day.

True, Petrus (still) does the work, but it is HE who makes the decisions, he sets up, he knows the prices, he takes the money and makes change, while David sits by, idle, inactive, clearly rendered superfluous - even obsolete.

Still, David knows precisely what Petrus is after (and what the reader is beginning to suspect) : first Lucy's land, then Ettinger's, who would be a harder nut to crack than Lucy, even though his only son has fled and he is alone. Neither Lucy nor Ettinger have a place in Petrus's vision of the future. That is the harsh reality.



The reader may be (?) pepared to accept that Petrus's absence on the day of the attack was conspicuous, but less willing to ask the next logical (unthinkable) question : Did Petrus mastermind the attack in order to fast-forward the inevitable process and, if so, what other devious means might he have up his sleeve to further the plan ?

jeber
September 16, 2003 - 10:52 am
Just a very quick note, yes the baas & Klaas does refer to the master -servant relationship but Klaas is actually a name,(note the capital K)often of a servant , and it is used there because it rhymes with baas, nothing to do with class. Yes Petrus is altogether a nasty piece of work, and of a type not to be trusted I think. I wonder if Petrus did mastermind the attack? I still think the primary aim was robbery though, this, I am afraid to say is a fairly common occurence in these times, and in fact Lucy and her father were fortunate not to have been killed, maybe a warning of things to come? Maybe "go now while you still can"

Jean

horselover
September 16, 2003 - 11:46 am
Traude, I think David Lurie is worried about the loss of his most important capability--his ability to attract and have sex with women. He does not really enjoy his sexual encounters with Bev Shaw. He regards her as someone he is forced to settle for, and fears that this will be his lot from now on.

Lucy puts up with whatever she must in order to stay in her home. She says to David, "I am not the person you know. I am a dead person and I do not know yet what will bring me back to life. All I know is that I cannot go away." It turns out later on that a "development" from the rape is what eventually brings Lucy back to life and allows her to regain her health and go on with her life.

Petrus probably cannot be entirely blamed for his attitude to the white people who have trodden over the rights of the indigenous black people for as long as they were able to.

Hats
September 16, 2003 - 12:45 pm
Hi Lorrie and Traude,

Horselover, I too feel that Lurie "settled" for Bev Shaw. His thoughts about Bev Smith, to me, are insulting to all older women. I am glad Bev Shaw can not read his thoughts.

At the same time, Lurie is definitely a man who is changing for the better. He seems more compassionate and more introspective. He tries to understand the actions of Petrus as well as Lucy's actions.

During his time at the university, he seemed like a very cold person, uncaring about anyone but himself. Now, he is totally different, proving to me that there is hope for all of us to change for the better. Our past actions can not or should not be held against us.

kiwi lady
September 16, 2003 - 01:21 pm
Lurie may have changed in some ways but he still has not changed in his basic nature where he uses women to satisfy his urges without having any emotional regard for them. He does not respect women.

Carolyn

Hats
September 16, 2003 - 01:29 pm
I think Lurie is trying to change. Change does not happen overnight. It takes introspection. I mean looking for a long time at each part of ourselves. Lurie is far from the ideal man for any woman, but he is different from the man we first met. I think Lucy sees some change in him towards women. This is why, I think, she seems to open up a little bit more as she talks with him. He is trying to see and understand his shortcomings. In that process, he is trying to understand what Lucy needs now.

Traude S
September 16, 2003 - 08:25 pm
Of course ! It is a mongrel dog that is shown ! Thank you for pointing this out!

HATS, yes, Lurie is changing; the events and the environment are changing him. I am not sure he deliberately sets out to change, but the reader sees that underneath his intense preoccupation with self, his egocentrism, there beats a heart, there IS a conscience.

We saw a glimpse earlier when, before the attack, David climbs into the dog cage with Katy, the mourning, abandoned bulldog, and falls asleep on the cement floor. Lucy wakes him with "Making friends?". It is Katy alone who survives the merciless dog killing during the attack... Is there a special (symbolic?) meaning in this ?

Now David bonds with one particular doomed dog in Bev's kennel at the clinic, and the affection is mutual. Isn't that an indication of hope under even the very worst of circumstances ?

As for the intimacy with Bev, I am under the impression that she initiated it, and he took what was offered, though without much pleasure. Will have to reread, again.

Lorrie
September 16, 2003 - 08:33 pm
When David and Lucy see one of the asssailants at Petrus’ party, they are shocked and leave the place, which has developed an unpleasant atmosphere.

This is the part I simply don’t understand about Lucy. When her father starts to call the police she stops him, and tells him: “Don’t shout at me, David. This is my life. I am the one who has to live here. What happened to me is my business, mine alone, not yours, and if there is one right that I have it is the right not to be put on trial like this, not to have to justify myself—not to you, not to anyone else.” I will probably feel a little more accepting of Lucy's point of view later, but right now I am bewildered by her reaction.

And Lurie!! Just when I thought he was becoming less of a chauvanist, and someone a little bit more likeable, the Professor, in all his aging insecurity, has an affair with his daughter's best friend, Bev. Honestly!

Traude S
September 16, 2003 - 08:50 pm
LORRIE, we posted within minutes of each other.

Yes, Lucy's position is unreasonable (to say the least), or so it seems to the reader. I'll have to go back and read he chapter, once again.

As for the relationship with Bev, I don't think that it qualifies as an "affair", not in Lurie's eyes either. It was Bev who initiated it and prepared for it. Who knows what either of them felt -- will get back to that aspect.

Lorrie
September 17, 2003 - 10:42 am
In a New Yorker issue on November 19, 1999, I was fascinated to read a really vivid review of this book:

""Disgrace" is not a hard or obscure book---it is, among other things, compulsively readable---but what it may well be is an authentically spiritual document, a lament for the soul of a disgraced century. This author rarely pauses for comic relief or for making nice to a character, and the waking nightmare of his novels offers little to those who long for heartening assurances. But "Disgrace" has the schematic power of a fable without the"Listen, children" preachiness.................."

Lorrie

Traude S
September 17, 2003 - 04:57 pm
Thank you, LORRIE, for the passage from The New Yorker review.

I'd like to add a link to a review by Sarah Lyall published in the NYT on Oct 26, 1999 :


www.nytimes.com/library/books/102699coetzee-booker.html


- not merely because of its contents, and the opinion expressed by Gerald Kaufman, a member of Parliament and the chairman of the judges' panel, nor the interesting short list of authors who were NOT chosen that year, but primarily because it features the author's picture.



I have hinted before at this foible , this predilection of mine to carefully scrutinize an author's face for clues on a given book.

These are my thoughts : the hardcover jacket of DISGRACE shows a thin, white-haired, unsmiling, ascetic-looking Coetzee. But the picture (by Reuters) in the NYT article shows him as an obviously younger, handsome man with full dark wavy hair, wearing the hint of a smile and looking for all the world like David Lurie in his heyday.

horselover
September 17, 2003 - 05:53 pm
Lurie's feelings toward Lucy are different from his attitude toward other women. He very much feels his love and obligation as a father. He says to Bev, "Lucy says I can't go on being a father forever. I can't imagine, in this life, not being Lucy's father."

In New Brighton (where he has gone with Lucy to reclaim his stolen car), he looks at Lucy and thinks: My daughter, my dearest daughter. Whom it has fallen to me to guide. Who one of these days will have to guide me.

Lurie feels keenly that Lucy is his only true family. But although Lucy loves him as a father, she also regards him as a man whose sexual appetites are not so different from the rapists. "You are a man," she says, "you ought to know." And Lurie wonders, "Does one speak to one's father like that? Are she and he on the same side?"

Traude S
September 17, 2003 - 06:10 pm
Chapter Twelve.

Ettinger says, "...I never go anywhere without my Beretta ... The best is you save yourself, because the police are not going to save you, not any more, you can be sure." pg. 100

On pg. 101, two sisters ( chuchotantes) are whispering within David's earshot in the hospital waiting room. The French verb for whisper is 'chuchoter"; chuchotant is the present participle functioning as noun here, with the requisite addition of the endings for the fem. gender and the plural.

Pg. 102 : "...there are men who do not readily make friends, whose attitude toward friendships between men is corroded with scepticism ..."

Ah, BUT aren't there also women who don't make friends all that easily and trustingly -except perhaps in their teens ? Any thoughts on this assertion in the book ?

Pg. 103 : What are we to make of David's vision ? Is it possible to conceive of a 'soul' leaving the body in extreme despair to plea for outside, reachable help ?

Chapter Thirteen, pg 107.

After returning to the farm, David has "for the first time a taste of what it will be like to be an old man, tired to the bone, without hopes, without desires, indifferent to the future ... interest in the world draining drop by drop..." And when he is bled dry, "he will be like a fly-casing in a spiderweb ..." in other words, a non-entity, just like a loathsome cockroach one might discover in the sink at night (see the earlier text during the Soraya period).

Pg. 110 "... in a country where dogs are bred to snarl at the mere smell of a black man ..." How does the reader react to this brutal reality ? One might bring up pit bulls enjoying increasing popularity in this country. Why and for what purpose (if any) are they bred and by whom? They are known to have inflicted grave injuries, and killed.

Pg. 112 gives a clue (unconvincing to the reader) on how Lucy feels " ... what happened to me is a purely private matter. In another time, in another place it might be held to be a public matter. But in this place, at this time, it is not. It is my business, mine alone." (emphasis mine)

Lucy is inactive, even apathetic on their return, and it falls to David to water the garden and keep a semblance of routine. Then Petrus returns ...

Hats
September 17, 2003 - 10:46 pm
Lorrie, I like the quote you have given. To me, Disgrace does come across as a "spiritual document." I also find Disgrace "compulsively readable." I would love to read another book by Mr. Coetzee. I plan to read another one in the future.

Traude, when my daily or personal experiences are too intense, I dream about those situations. In the dreams, someone in the family or a friend might call out to me for help. I relate these dreams to worry. My thoughts lie dormant in my subconscious and come up to breathe, so to speak, in my dreams.

In David's case, he hears Lucy crying out for his help. In real life, she is not calling for his help. She does not want his help. What he wishes would happen in real circumstances takes place only in his dream. I think we can have these type of dreams too.

David also sees Lucy in a bright light and looking well. Really, Lucy is not looking well at all because she is fighting with the memories of the brutal rape. As far as the bright light, I have heard of people having out of body experiences or near death experiences and seeing a bright light.

kiwi lady
September 17, 2003 - 10:54 pm
As I was reading back a bit today, one thing that got up my nose was when Lucy is asking David to justify himself about his sexual relationship (if you can call it that) with Melanie, he thinks that he would like to say "I was a servant of Eros" and then again a bit further down "it was a god who acted through me". As he is speaking to Lucy he is saying that a man cannot control his sexual urges and uses the analogy of a dog he once knew and his sexual urges. He does not say these thoughts about Eros out loud but was saying it in his head! What chauvanistic sentiments! I still don't like this man much.

Carolyn

Lorrie
September 17, 2003 - 10:55 pm
Hats, the dreams you speak of----an example is the night at Bev's house, right after the attack, when David wakes from a dream certain that his daughter had called him for help, which she actually hadn't.

Oh, Traude, I really liked that picture of Coetzee! He looks so jaunty, so self-assured, and in my estimation, exactly how i would have pictured David Lurie! Thank you for that link.

Lorrie

Hats
September 17, 2003 - 11:06 pm
Lorrie and Traude, I have the paperback book. So, I can not see the younger photo. I would love to see the younger photograph.

Lorrie
September 17, 2003 - 11:53 pm
Hattie, the picture was not on the paperback that i have, either. It was in an article about the Booker Prize in a link that Traude gave us. I have sent you an email explaining this.

Are we all a bunch of night-owls here? I suppose Carolyn and Jean are in an earlier time zone.

Oh, Carolyn, I love your forthright manner! I couldn't agree more about Lurie, and it seems as though, according to those smug answers he gave his daughter, the changes in him haven't been all that great.

Lorrie

kiwi lady
September 18, 2003 - 12:18 am
Lorrie its 7.15pm on Thursday at I type this. I am often however up in the wee small hours when its your morning over there- of course in your case you are in the day before us!

Carolyn

horselover
September 18, 2003 - 02:32 pm
Some of you seem not to have changed your very negative opinion of David Lurie as the story progresses. I, however, feel a lot more sympathy for him than I did earlier in the book. His fears about aging, "of what it will be like to be an old man, tired to the bone, without hopes, without desires, indifferent to the future ... interest in the world draining drop by drop...," are shared to some extent, at some times, by all of us. He tends to focus on the loss of his physical attractiveness, but that does not diminish the reality of his fears.

He has tried to change since coming to stay with Lucy. He has tried to fit in with her life on the farm, helping with the flower stall, and working at the animal clinic. He has tried to restrain his instincts regarding the rape in deference to Lucy's wishes in the matter. And he has tried to deal with his own injuries from the attack with minimal complaint. As a father, he thinks he is doing the best for Lucy by suggesting she leave the farm and go to Holland to stay with relatives for a while. "I know you would like to stay, he says, "but shouldn't you at least consider the other route? Can't the two of us talk about it rationally?"

The fact that, after their sexual relationship is over, he continues a genuine friendship with Bev Shaw shows he has changed and grown.

Traude S
September 18, 2003 - 09:17 pm
HORSELOVER, I agree with your assessment of Lurie.

Whether he consciously sets out to change or not, he has no choice but to adapt to the circumstances; he does what must be done, the watering, the daily routines, even the cooking. He describes all of this matter-of-factly and without self-pity. The physical labor numbs him to the emotional burden he carries because of Lucy's withdrawal and unwillingness to discuss the attack.

David takes it upon himself to confront the newly returned Petrus with questions to which he receives few answers. The power dynamic has clearly changed.

In parentheses a note on "Kaffraria" (pg. 122) : It is the former name for a region in the Transkei in East SA. It was founded in 1848 as the dependency of British Kaffraria and added to Cape Colony in 1865. The Transkei in turn is a former black "homeland" and nominal republic. Much of the territory of that former homeland is hilly or mountaineous, there is little good farmland. Roughly two thirds of the Transkei's income was provided by the SA government, and all trade was conducted through South Africa. Most of the area's inhabitants speak a Xhosa language.



I'll write more tomorrow. But before I go, some questions :

Why do you think is David so preoccupied with the lot of the two slaughter-sheep and their being tethered on a barren patch rather than in an area where they could graze ?

How can Petrus possibly presume to guarantee that Lucy will be "safe" espcially since one attacker is back ?

What game (pg. 137) IS Petrus playing ?

horselover
September 19, 2003 - 10:05 am
Traude, I think you have put your finger on a key point when you said, "The power dynamic has clearly changed." At the beginning when Lurie first arrives at the farm, Petrus is clearly a handyman and farm worker who is living there with his family in Lucy's employ. But now that the land he is living on belongs to him, and Lucy requires his protection, Petrus has the upper hand. He cares less and less about appeasing his former masters, and his attitude becomes more and more arrogant. Lucy is welcome to stay, under his protection and as part of his family, if she wishes. If not, Petrus will eventually take over the farm anyway. His advice to Lucy is to get past the attack and move on.

Lorrie
September 19, 2003 - 10:59 am
Horselover, your defense of Lurie is quite understandable. If for no other reason, the compassion that this man shows to helpless animals is definitely a plus in his favor, and I do admire him for that.

I also agree with your analysis of Petrus. However, there are some things about this man that are difficult to like. On page 130, for instance, at his party, Petrus sounds off his preference for male children over female. His remarks about how expensive women are, for instance, I found repugnant.

This is so typical of the way Coetzee writes---he doesn't try to "nice up" his characters, or make them less obnoxious than they are. It's a sort of "this is what they are, warts and all, take them or leave them." It's very honest.

Lorrie

kiwi lady
September 19, 2003 - 01:31 pm
Is not Petrus showing us a reversal of the beginning of the old SA. The Settlers came in - made friends at first with the indigenous people and then took their land off them. The same attitude - you can live here under our conditions and our paternal protection or leave. There is a lot more to this book than just taking the plot literally.

Carolyn

Traude S
September 19, 2003 - 03:01 pm
LORRIE, thank you for getting back to HATS with information on how to access my last link; which turned out to be unclickable. A blow to my self-confidence - and just when I thought I had mastered the technique ! Ha-Ha !

In view of my technical inefficacy, I may well need further standby support ("Hilfestellung" in German).

This is as good a chance as any to put in a word of defense for our author, J.M. Coetzee. I do not believe he is a deliberate show-of or elitist in using foreign terms and phrases. That is actually quite common, albeit not here. Sometimes a term is best expressed in the original word, in whatever language. Just take "Schadenfreude" as an example. (I've referred to it before.) It is one of those confounding composite German nouns made up of two separate nouns (or more, if desired, resulting in tape-worm-like constructions);

(1) Schaden, n. m. = damage, injury, harm, etc. etc., and (2) Freude fem. n. = joy, pleasure, glee.

Even William Safire, the NYT columnist and intrepid language maven of the NYT Sunday magazine, uses "Schadenfreude" as is, simply because there IS no one-word translation, only the concept : = the secret, snickering pleasure at seeing someone fail at a certain goal-- competitive or not, i.e. rejoicing in another's misfortune; a most despicable thought.

Sorry to have overlooked two words in the text (perhaps more ?) which I had promised to translate; both used in connection with Ettinger. One is an adjective "ländliche"= rural, rustic, yet encompassing ever so much more, i.e. a special stubborn, unalterable frame of mind.

The other one is "verwurzelt" or "eingewurzelt" - I can't find the page now, but the core of the word is "Wurzel" = root (BTW, German nouns are capitalized). The meaning of verbs is determined by the respective prefix (= HUGELY important!).

Whatever the prefix, the word means firmly rooted with heart and soul , inseparable from a piece of land.



I have total empathy with Ettinger on the basis of my own experience. But I do not wear my heart on my sleeve, nor do I believe that the details of my life could be of even the slightest interest to the anonymous internet world out there.

Will share the researched material as soon as I can.

horselover
September 19, 2003 - 04:57 pm
Lorrie, You are right. The fact that Petrus has become more powerful does not make him more likeable. He is, however, loyal to his extended family. When Lurie accuses him of lying, Petrus replies, "You come to look after your child. I also look after my child." And when Lurie questions whether the boy is his child, Petrus declares, "Yes. He is a child. He is my family, my people." Some of what we don't like about Petrus is part of the culture he grew up with.

Kiwi Lady, I agree that what Petrus is doing now is the reverse of what the whites did to the indigenous people when they first arrived in SA. It is also the reverse of what the Europeans did to the American Indians when they first arrived in the "New World."

kiwi lady
September 19, 2003 - 05:42 pm
Its the reverse of what the British did to our indigenous people and the Aborigines of Australia! We however have had a lot of intermarriage here and did not have a system of apartheid. Brooke and Grace my two grandaughters have Maori Heritage. My SILS father hid his heritage and never spoke of it outside the family. His mother lived in the country and I don't think she ever came to Auckland. I don't think he had much to do with her. He was an executive of an American Company and was based in Hong Kong for many years. My SILs mother who was divorced from his father did have contact with his Maori grandmother so SIL had holidays with her when he was small. She died before he grew up unfortunately. Ironically now my grandaughter has chosen to join the Maori Culture group at her school. She loves it and its amazing how much she has learnt. My SIL and daughter are now tracing the iwi (tribe). It would have been easy if his grandmother was still alive. Its good to know your roots.

Carolyn

Lorrie
September 19, 2003 - 08:41 pm
Carolyn, what a fascinating tale you have to tell! It's almost like one of the better novels that we discuss here on SeniorNet! I like your matter-of-fact attitude, and somehow I found it heartening to read that your grandaughter has now become involved with the Maori Culture group at her school. Interesting post.

Lorrie

Hats
September 20, 2003 - 06:44 am
I think Petrus is innocent until proven guilty. Is their true evidence of his guilt? I think he might look guilty due to his association with the men who raped Lucy and who burnt and stole from Lurie.

I have not read past chapter eighteen.

Lorrie
September 20, 2003 - 07:57 am
Oh, yes, Hats!

I think you will think a bit differently when you continue reading past chapter 18. This next part of the book is quite illuminating.

On Monday we go on to Chapter 19 and the final part of the novel In this part there is a great deal about Lurie's attempt to write an opera about Byron and his love, Teresa. Right here I want to state that I certainly won't be able to post anything to comment on this particular phase, I must confess this whole section left me completely bewildered. In this I bow to my partner Traude, who is probably much more learned about Lord Byron's history than I. However, there are important changes with the Lucy situation that i can comment on.

Lorrie

Traude S
September 20, 2003 - 02:57 pm
HATS, Petrus hasn't been accused of anything. The reader is drawing conclusions, perhaps wrongly, and certainly prematurely at this point, since we are reading this book in installments :

These are a man's, a father's, recollections of the disgrace that changed his life, from which he then sought distance, perhaps a modicum of emotional recovery, on his daughter's remote farm in East SA. There was no recovery - only more turmoil.

He witnesses the attack and his daughter's disgrace; the degradation strikes him that much harder. At this point in the book there is no solution.

I believe we must read between the lines, beyond the casual tone, to realize that the narrator is in agony (or in hell fire, as some might say). But let's give him credit for telling it "like it is": he does not spare himself, makes no excuses; in sum, he is honest.

He is relieved that press reports of the attack on the farm give Lucy's last name a spelling different from his own, so that there is no further stain put on his. He is concerned enough to track down his former second wife, Lucy's stepmother, to let her know about the attack in cautious terms, lest she be upset by press accounts.

This is not an intrinsically BAD man despite his profligacy, which none of us here could or would want to overlook, much less condone. He is not hopeless - but the situation in which he finds himself might well be just : hopeless <P/>.

More soon.

Traude S
September 20, 2003 - 06:39 pm
It is amazing to me just how many literary, historical and geographic references are in this short book. Yesterday I found myself involved in checking Benin Mask and <Thoth on pg.121.

I tried to post some URLs earlier, they were not clickable, and I tried again. There is a wealth of information about Benin Masks.

That led me to check Benin, the country itself, which, like other African states, had a very long history; Benin was in fact a kingdom.

As far as Benin masks are concerned, they were made of bronze, brass, ivory, and wood, and not necessarily only in Benin, but also in Ghana and in Nigeria.

Here are some URLs regarding Benin masks, and if they turn out NOT to be clickable, perhaps LORRIE will come to my rescue. Here goes :


http://www.eze1.com/mask02.htm

http://www.kmtspace.com/benin.htm

http://www.arm.arc.co.uk/britishBenin.html

http://www.madebyearth.com/benin_mask.htm


In the first URL, that is eze ONE, NOT a small L. I have tried very hard to get all the dots etc. in place, but a technie I'll never be. Please bear with me.

Back soon.

GingerWright
September 20, 2003 - 06:49 pm
Your clickables worked for me. You are doing "Great".

Traude S
September 20, 2003 - 07:30 pm
GINGEE, thank you, thank you! You have no idea how good that makes me feel ! I have long believed that I am technically quite beyond hope!

Dear Readers, I do realize that Benin is in West Africa, Africa is an enormous continent. But - thorough as I am - I wanted to follow Coetzee to see what he was talking about. So I offer the following URLs on Benin, one gives a quick overview of Benin, one gives a detailed history, and one is smashing : it has drums in the background. Benin is famous apparently not only for the masks but for the drums ! Here I go, trying my best


http://www.sas.upenn.edu/African_Studies/Country_Specific/Benin.htm

http://www.revdrjohnson.com/ancient.htm

http://www.artofwestafrica.com

Traude S
September 20, 2003 - 07:34 pm
I see the first one does not work. Will try again.

Traude S
September 20, 2003 - 08:04 pm
Sorry, I was unable to make one of the URLs clickable. It is the shortest one and gives an excellent overview and has links for further information. The source is the University of Pennsylvania African Studies Center.


http://www.sas.upenn.edu/African_Studies/Country_Specific/Benin.html

Back tomorrow

Lorrie
September 20, 2003 - 09:29 pm
Traude, all your links work for me, with the exception of the one you mentioned in the second group. Wonderful pictures!

For the benefit of those of us who can't remember the source, can you give us the page number where the author makes reference to this subject?

Lorrie

Traude S
September 21, 2003 - 10:10 am
Happy Sunday !

LORRIE, the link that had not worked in my post # 280 DID work in post # 282. Vast relief !

The references to a Benin mask and Thoth are in the third full paragraph on pg. 121 : "The demons do not pass him by. He has nightmares of his own in which he wallows in a bed of blood, or, panting, shouting soundlessly, runs from the man with the face like a hawk, like a Benin mask, like Thoth. One night, half sleepwalking, half demented, he strips his own bed even turns the mattress over, looking for stains.'

Thoth was to the Egyptians the god of wisdom, learning and magic, the inventor of numbers and letters, the scribe of all the gods. He was represented as a man with the head of either an ibis or a baboon. The ibis is related to the heron and stork and has a long thin downwardly-curved bill.

Next : The Byron connection.

Traude S
September 21, 2003 - 10:41 am
To understand David Lurie's special affinity for Byron we need to take a fresh look at the famous poet, especially his personal life.

The net abounds with information on Byron, which would take days to even partially digest and follow up on. I will list several links below to complement your own knowledge.

However, I do not think that, within the context of this book, we are called upon- nor have the time- to analyze his enormous body of work in any detail : For it seems to me that David Lurie is drawing a personal comparison between aspects of HIS life and Byron's - especially Byron's last relationship with Teresa.

more later

jeber
September 21, 2003 - 10:54 am
Have not been on-line since last Thursday, am enjoying reading all the comments. Regarding the masks mentioned, we see a lot of them here in the markets, from all parts of Africa. The area in which Lucy lives is now a Province called Eastern Cape. Incidentally, Mandela is a Khosa & hails from that region.

Interestingly enough I read a book a month or two ago, called "Rabbit Proof Fence", and at the beginning of this month a friend returned from two and a half months in the US, where he goes every year to visit his daughters, and this time he visited a native American Reservation.

Petrus is an untrustworthy individual it seems, and yes it does appear there is a role reversal of the "baas & Klaas" situation. May I suggest another link which may be of interest regarding a review of this book. http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/generalfiction/0,6121,96805,00.html#top

Jean

kiwi lady
September 21, 2003 - 11:28 am
Jean - I would love to visit an Indian Reservation. I would also love to see some of their ceremonial dances. Also I would like to see their traditional craft work. I love indigenous music, I must say that I really love the music coming out of Soweto in recent years. Its just amazing. In my opinion also there is nothing to touch a good Pacific Island church choir.

Just as a note aside I was listening to the BBC reviewing the Booker list for this year and there is another South African author who is a hot favorite. There seems to be a renaissance in South African literature in this new South Africa. I am sorry I did not take notes and can't remember the title of the novel mentioned or the author.

Disgrace is at the first reading brutal and ugly. However as one reads it for the second time and reflects on the content of the novel the reader begins to have a feeling more of hope than despair and I think this is what the author was trying to convey.

Carolyn

Traude S
September 21, 2003 - 12:10 pm
JEAN, I am grateful for your post and the link to this extraordnary review of "our" book ... "quietly deceptive" !!! I made a copy to study it further (that's how my bulging files originated !).

CAROLYN, short of visiting an Indian reservation, Tony Hillerman's books for one are a close thing. He lives in Albuquerque, New Mexico; his books focus on the Navajo tribe, and he has been honored by them for his writing. The books are "framed" as mysteries (of which I am not a fan, generally speaking), but they convey ever so much more.

Hillerman's distinctive voice was not quite as "resonant" (or so it seemed to me) in his last book, The Sinister Pig ; he seemed tired, somehow. He is in his seventies and suffers from injuries sustained in WW II; hehas a reason to be tired. But I wish with all my heart that he'll give us at lest one more story - perhaps closure, if that's his wont.

Back to the URLs :





http://www.englishhistory.net/byron.html

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Parc/9893/byron2.html

http://www.englishhistory.net/byron/images.html

Traude S
September 21, 2003 - 12:24 pm
Dear Friends, I see the links work. In the last one, please scroll down at your leisure; Teresa's picture is far down.

I'm working on deciphering Lurie's presumed "association" with Byron, but I have as yet reached no conclusion. The very idea of even attempting to explain strikes me as presumptuous.

This is not an easy book to read or discuss, easy to dismiss. There is no plot, and what there is of "action" is expressed through the narrator's internalized account. It's easy to imagine what a cynic would say -- how do you feel personally, and what do you think is the task (or the duty) of the reader in this particular case ?

jeber
September 21, 2003 - 12:56 pm
There is another J.M.Coetzee book for consideration on this year's Booker Prize list, it is called Elizabeth Costello, is this the one you were thinking of Carolyn? Yes some of the African music is appealing and certainly has rhythmn---- the Soweto String Quartet is excellent, have you heard any of their music? Kwaito though does not appeal to me, nor does "rap", but is the latter African/American in origin? On the whole Africans , like the Welsh have lovely voices, there is a wonderful choral festival being televised as I write,--- I have got the video on to record.

Going back a bit to the misspelling of Luries name when the attack was featured in the local newspaper, it was spelled as "Loerie": a loerie is a bird, and its very distinctive call is said to be a warning to other animals when predators are around. I wonder if Coetzee intended that to be of any significance?

Jean

kiwi lady
September 21, 2003 - 02:51 pm
Yes Jean - The Soweto string quartet is incredible and also I heard the Soweto Childrens choir. AMAZING! I too am no rap fan! I don't think we could say that was indigenous music really. SA rythmn and the harmony of the voices - just makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up! It speaks to something inside me as does our Maori music. I love your new national anthem also. I also love the original African American Gospel music - no music just the voices.

Carolyn

Lorrie
September 22, 2003 - 07:26 am
Jean,

that was a great review from the link that you posted! Do I understand correctly that Coetzee will now be nominated for a THIRD Booker prize? I understand this particular prize is quite prestigious over there.

To get back to the book:

Were you all surprised to learn of Lucy's pregnancy? I was. I had thought perhaps of HIV-Positive, probably because it's so prevalent in Africa, but this was a completely new twist. My first thought was, I wonder how this must affect the way Lucy feels about her attackers? Will she seek revenge, at last? But no, that was not to be.

Lorrie

Hats
September 22, 2003 - 08:57 am
Lorrie, I was surprised by the pregnancy. After reading about the pregnancy, I began to feel that this story is more about Lucy than Professor Lurie. For some reason, I care more about what happens to her than I do her father. Lucy's decision to stay in SA remains in my mind. I can not say that I understand the reasons for her choices. Like her father, I think she should have packed up and left long ago.

I do know that running away will not solve her problems, especially now that she is pregnant. I can not see her life becoming less complicated. Then, I realize the problems in SA are very complex and not ones that can be solved in a month or a year.

Lorrie
September 22, 2003 - 09:08 am
Yes, Hats, I know what you mean. The problems that now beset Lucy are so complex. In fact, this whole book is not a simple story. I keep thinking of how Lucy's final decision to remain with Petrus will affect her sexual life-style? Will her homosexuality have to be repressed? How would he feel about that, having taken her "under his protection?"

It weems to me that one of the biggest sacrifices that Lucy must make, if that is her intent, is to relinquish so many freedoms that she so enjoyed up until now. I am still bewildered by her decision.

Lorrie

jeber
September 22, 2003 - 10:56 am
Indeed Lorrie, Coetzee it appears is considered a favourite for this years Booker prize, and if he wins it will be his third. Why is Lucy's pregnancy a surprise? It seemed to me to be a very probable outcome after her attack, she is very likely HIV positive as well. Her attitude is incomprehensible to me, especially as she does have somewhere else to go to. Why not to Holland as her father suggested. What did surprise me was David Lurie's visit to the Isaacs home in George-------- very strange. Re : the choir festival which I recorded last night, I looked/listened to it this mornong. Magnificent the massed choirs numbered hundreds---literally, and the repertoire varied between operatic and traditional African. One tenor sang an aria , whilst dressed in traditional costume of leopard skins! I wish I could share it with all of you. Yes the national anthem is lovely, can't spell its name though, and there is a spirit of generosity in that the old SA anthem is always sung as well. Watching and listening to such magnificence made me think that maybe SA is not so bad after all!

Jean

kiwi lady
September 22, 2003 - 11:27 am
Here I go again. Symbolism. The pregnancy is a another symbol I think of hope. Out of violence comes a new life. The blending of two races. There is always a chance that Lucy will not be HIV positive. I have read of women whose husbands have had a recent HIV diagnosis not being infected themselves. There is a slim chance that Lucy will escape this other horror. I admire Lucy too. I think she has a great respect for life of all sorts. It shows in how she treats all those about her and also the animals which are her responsibility.

Jean - Vanessa loved SA. She said if there was anywhere else in the world she would live other than NZ it would be SA. She said it is magical and very beautiful.

Carolyn

horselover
September 22, 2003 - 05:30 pm
I can see why Lucy would make this choice for herself, but what about doing what is best for the child??? Is this kind of family life with it's tensions and constant threat of violence what she wants for her child? Is this the kind of father figure a child should have?

What does it mean that Lurie, at last, decides to "give up" the injured dog who he has trained to love him, and that he has grown to love? Is this another way of saying that for all of us in the end, it is "ashes to ashes, dust to dust?" That in the end, we will all have to face losing the ones we love. It is a very sad ending.

Lorrie
September 22, 2003 - 06:54 pm
Yes, Horselover, that's the word. Sad. I finished reading this book and was left with an empty, bleak feeling. This man is an accomplished writer, gifted in every way, and I admire his prowess very much, but I still can't say that the book left me feeling very good. I know, I know, it wasn't supposed to, but I can't help it, that's the way I feel. Nothing can change my mind about the protagonist, this man is a lecher in the worst way. He even was stimulated sexually when he met the younger sister of Melanie at their house.

Lorrie

Traude S
September 22, 2003 - 07:35 pm
JEAN, thank you for letting us know about Coetzee's new book, Elizabeth Costello . BN has it listed for publication in October. The publisher's information is there, but so far only two reviews, by Library Journal and Kirkus Reviews, respectively. The publisher says the author lives in Australia .





Lucy is determined to stay, even though the youngest attacker is back and firmly ensconced in Petrus's household. How could any woman living by herself, and pregnant to boot, possibly feel safe under such circumstances ? And what about the child, as HORSELOVER asked ? How realistic is it to expect protection by being assimilated in Petrus's family, possibly as third wife or concubine ?

Both father and daughter realize that Petrus wants the land, and Lucy is prepared to sign it over to him, as long as she can keep the house and decide who can enter it : Personal sacrifice and reparation on a personal level. A deal, an alliance. A beginning from scratch. But no happy end.

Mentioned in the South African review linked by JEAN are two tracks, and the connection does exist.

I still believe this personal story parallels as if in a microcosm the story of SA as a whole : the new order, the reversal of power, the proportionate sharing of it, the redistribution of land; all involving pain, suffering, uncertainty, violence, even anarchy, and death.

David has the last word in the book, and I'll get to that tomorrow. And there are other important literary references to decode. Till then.

Lorrie
September 23, 2003 - 11:59 am
Do any of you feel, as I do, that Lucy begins to see the rape as a necessary price for her continued occupation of the land, that the attack is a kind of historical reparation? As David tells her, “It was history speaking through them....a history of wrong. Think of it that way if it helps. It may have seemed personal, but it wasn’t. It came down from the ancestors.”

Some critics have said that few writers in English equal this South African’s hard intelligence. Few are as philosophical, or as familiar with the languages of post-colonial theory. And they also say that few writers are as bleak, as painfully, repetitively honest. How true!

It’s strange to see, but after Coetzee’s gripping examination of the two different responses that two different generations fashion to this horrific event, the novel ends with Lurie much more thoughtful and penitent than he began. It is only toward the very end of this book that I can see any changes in Lurie.

kiwi lady
September 23, 2003 - 12:32 pm
Lorrie - yes I do feel exactly as you do. All through the book on my second reading this thought came to me time and time again.

Carolyn

horselover
September 23, 2003 - 02:33 pm
Lorrie, Yes, Lucy does see the rape as a necessary price for her continued occupation of the land, and the attack is a kind of historical reparation? But I think this just underlines the distorted thinking on her part. It does not explain why she is so set on remaining on this land, especially in view of the fact that the land would no longer belong to her and she would only be living in the house while Petrus allowed her to.

Traude S
September 23, 2003 - 03:26 pm
What remains puzzling is Lurie's detour on his way back to Cape Town through the town of George to "drop in" on the Isaacs family (Chapter Nineteen). If the narrator had any such plan or when he conceived it, he does not tell the reader. There is something vaguely disturbing, even grotesque, about the visit and the conversations, especially the one with Melanie's father at school (pg. 166). What is it that he wants ? Forgiveness ? Or simply to explain, as self-justification, that everything began "without premeditation ...as an adventure, one of those sudden little adventures that men of a certain kind have, that I have, that keep me going. " (pg. 166)

His "re-entry" into Cape Town after an absence of not quite three months is not a happy return; in fact, there IS no return to his old life. Finding his house ransacked, he muses

"No ordinary burglary. A raiding party moving in, cleaning out the site, retreating laden with bags, boxes, suitcases. Booty; war reparations; another incident in the great campaign of redistribution. Who is at this moment wearing his shoes ? ..."

"There is something unfinished in the business with Melanie." (pg. 190). But there can be no new beginning. He is summarily chased out of the theatre by the hissing boyfriend, whose name is Ryan we now find out. "Didn't you learn your lesson," Ryan asks (pg 194).

More later.

Traude S
September 23, 2003 - 06:30 pm
HORSELOVER et alii : I agree with all of you regarding the character of the narrator. However I see no need to LIKE him, or indeed ANY character in any book (though, admittedly, 'liking' helps).

Are the other characters in the book "likable" ? Are they supposed to be likable ? Is that the only criterion for the reader ? It seems to me that this book is, among oher things, a psychological study of a father and daughter and their respective disgrace, set against the background of a new SA, similarly and profoundly affected by its reorganization after centuries of colonialism and strict segregation.

Allow me to say : I see Lucy as an almost one-dimensional character, a new earth mother, more idealist than realist, and I understand neither her reaction after the attack nor her decision. Even so I have the strong feeling the author meant to convey a message.

Tracing the author's many literary, historical, geograpical and linguistic references became a challenge and almost an end in itself for me. Coetzee is clearly at home e.g. with Dante's Inferno, see the mention of the souls (called "shades") of those condemned to Hell for all eternity, and (on pg. 83) of Lethe, the river of forgetfulness in Hell.

On pg. 146, "The dogs are brought to the clinic because they are unwanted : because we are too menny ." That is a direct quote from Jude the Obscure by Thomas Hardy



Yesterday I read somewhere that, despite continuing strife, SA is considered a paradise by many other Africans. Untold numbers of people from Zimbabwe, for example, both men and women, regulardly and illegally into SA in desperate search of work. Those captured in SA are returned to the border, either by truck or by train. The transport by train takes hours longer because the train with the captured illegal immigrants on board must let more "important" trains pass first. On such occasions some people jump out of the train and disappear into the countryside. Many have been deported several times over; all interviewed for the article vowed to try and try again.

Hats
September 23, 2003 - 10:00 pm
Traude, I found Lurie's visit back to the theatre "disturbing" too. At this point, I lost faith in Lurie again. My feelings for Lurie throughout the book were either negative or positive. At the farm, I felt extremely hopeful that he was changing. Then, when he would return to the city, leave Lucy, he seemed like a different person.

I felt like the ending of the book was positive. I have hope that Lucy's life, there on the farm, will work out. She is a strong woman with good values.

Lorrie
September 24, 2003 - 04:20 pm
Looking back in retrospect, it's simple to see the book, as a whole, is not a hard or obscure book, but may well be an authentically spiritual document, a "lament for the soul of a disgraced century," as one critic writes.

I did wonder about the use of the present tense, but i feel that that was enough to shape the structure and form of the book as a whole.

David Lurie is hardly the hero of his own life, or anyone else's. But on re-reading the end of the book, I begin to feel a sense that he has finally found an unlikely home, and some measure of love, with the animals.

Lorrie

horselover
September 24, 2003 - 05:02 pm
Lorrie, If Lurie has finally found some measure of love with the animals, why does he decide to kill the dog he has come to love, and who he has trained to love him?

I think part of the reason he decides to visit Melanie's father is because of how he feels about the attack on Lucy. At last, he realizes the effect his irresponsible acts can have on the father of a child who undergoes such treatment.

Traude S
September 24, 2003 - 06:09 pm
LORRIE and HORSELOVER,

I too was baffled and preoccupied that (and why) Lurie would "surrender" the dog, prematurely as it were. Finally it occurred to me that this was the only solution. Whether executed this week, next week, or the week after that ... the outcome, the final solution (the "Endlösung" in Nazi times), was inevitable.



In a larger sense, I believe this was also David's personal acceptance of the new realities, his giving up the old concepts and prejudices to "go with the flow" of the new. In the final analysis there IS hope expressed in this book, as LORRIE and HATS have said. I am grateful for your insights, which truly have made me see things with greater clarity.

We are not quite done yet, though; I'd like to identify a few more references for the sake of good order, and also get back to the Byron connection (briefly).

kiwi lady
September 24, 2003 - 07:09 pm
If the author is living in Australia he is one of the many who after taking the best out of SA in the good times has jumped ship when the going got tough.

Traude S
September 24, 2003 - 07:54 pm
CAROLYN, I was just repeating what I read in the BN write-up. It's just one sentence; it's there to be looked up. Interestingly, the main character of the new book, Esther Costello, is a noted (fictional) Australian .

But just think, bolstered by the eternally inflated cushion of his royalties, the author could live anywhere on the globe. Could his choice and preference for Australia be taken as a "sign" of some kind ? And not necessarily a bad sign either. Could this mean he is through with SA and the "adjustment" of his hero in DISGRACE ?

Though born in SA he was away for studies and work in England and in the U.S. for years. He may be a restless soul, like David Lurie in DISGRACE, trying to recapture youth -- which should be a bit difficult at age 60 (or is it 63 - have to look it up).

kiwi lady
September 24, 2003 - 08:20 pm
Traude - We have so many SAfricans here you would not believe it. Until the hand over of power to majority rule there were very very few. I admire people like Jean and Margret who have stayed on and helped to support the economy. The North Shore which is almost exclusively white is chockablock with ex pat South Africans. We do have quite a few colored SAfricans here where I live (Indians and so on) but many of them came here before majority rule. There is a white SAfrican family who live just round the corner from me. They have very stilted English. Now I have to be honest and say a lot of Nzers have gone to Australia because they did not like the Waitangi Tribunal findings. That is the tribunal which rules on compensation to Maori for past land grabs etc.In fact some people say Maori are getting too big for their boots. They liked it while Maori were kept down but don't like them speaking out and certainly don't like them being listened to. I think the colonial attitude is still alive and well in some areas here.

jeber
September 25, 2003 - 10:53 am
Again have been away for a while, catching up this evening. Traude I see you mentioned the visit to the Isaacs in their home, I did pass a comment about that a while back, but no one else seemed to take it up, and I wondered why not as it did seem very odd.

As for David, we have seen two sides of his character, his life for an educated and erudite man has descended to a shambles on all sides, (?the future of SA) and the book , for me anyway finished on a sad and disheartening note. Again I say that Lucy's attitude is to me quite incomprehsible!. Maybe she felt that she had nothing to leave the farm to go to, although her father offered other options. As for being under Petrus' protection, extreemly doubtful! Altogether I found the whole tone of the book depressing in the extreme.

Carolyn, I don't understand your comment about J.M.C taking the best out of SA and then leaving. He would hardly be personally affected by the changes, and doubt too that he was exploitative of anyone, if indeed he does now live in Australia. Thank you for the credit which you give me undeservedly for being here, I only came to SA as an adult on holiday, and having married a S.African am still here. There is more to life than great scenery and good weather, though my quality of life has been good, it is certainly no better than if I had remained in England.

It appears that JMC now lives in Adelaide.

Jean

Traude S
September 25, 2003 - 12:05 pm
CAROLYN, your background information and viewpoint are always helpful, and I thank you.

From what you say it would appear that there was a white exodus from SA. However, I never saw any reference to THAT fact in our media (believe me, I try to be informed!); we heard the jubilation over the demise of an authoritarian, repressive, outdated system and hailed the advent of democracy, from afar. But only those who were actually THERE at the time can know the full story first-hand, its ramifications and consequences. Until you mentioned that SA newcomers came to NZ, evidently in significant numbers, I for one had absolutely no idea. Are we "hazy on facts"?

To give proper attribution: this term is mentioned in an article we are currently analyzing in the "WOMEN IN LITERATURE" folder.



JEAN, thank you for posting just when you did. Yes, I noticed your post about David Lurie's side trip to George, and I've followed up since. CAROLYN's revelations are news to me. They lead me to ask at least one disturbing question : Why are we "hazy on facts" ? I won't venture any further because the "Patriot Act" that looms over us all has me very seriously concerned

I agree, JEAN, the book is essentially cheerless, it begins with a jolt, and things only get worse. David is somehow more real to me, though antipathetic in the extreme, than Lucy who seems to have been molded for a "role" ; but did the character HAVE to be a lesbian for the author to get the point across?

As for the author's motivation to leave SA - only he knows what it was. I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. His was a life of teaching and writing; he was not part of the ruling hierarchy and did not carry the burden of misdeeds. Whatever his reasons for leaving, they are his business. That he chose Australia is, I most scerely believe, a compliment, a tribute. Just MHO,

Jan
September 25, 2003 - 02:39 pm
Hi, I've been reading here and just wanted to make a comment. A lot of South Africans have moved here, and the reasons they have given in our paper have been the similarity between the two countries, especially in looks. The countryside in Central Queensland, is very like South Africa.If you look at an Atlas, the Tropic of Capricorn runs right through my town, Rockhampton and the south of Africa. I've always said that if you took the exotic animals out of photos, you could just as easily be looking at Queensland.

Inearly every interview I've read the migrants gave their children as the reason for leaving. Wanting a better life for your children is one of the most compelling reasons for leaving your country. Having decided to leave they need to move to a country where they can work, and farming here is familiar ground. Same country, same crops.

Earlier in the week, I listened to an Australian Foreign Correspondent doing an interview from Johannesburg. She spoke of a panic button, beside the kitchen sink and one beside her bed. Armed guards at the Gym, and the ordeal of plucking up the courage at the end of a day at work, to dash from the ABC building to her car.

Jan

horselover
September 25, 2003 - 05:35 pm
Traude, I wish you would not refer to Bev and Lurie's work at the clinic as "the final solution." This expression has such evil connotations. And I still do not see why Lurie could not have adopted the dog and taken care of it until it died a natural death. He is planning to live nearby in town and spend his days at the clinic, even sleeping there most of the time. He expects to stay here and be a grandfather to Lucy's child. Why not take responsibility for once for a living being you have caused to love you?

kiwi lady
September 25, 2003 - 07:40 pm
Jean - My DIL found England much changed. She was so homesick after being here for 9 yrs my son sold up and took her home. It only took her one year to realise there was a better life for children here. They stayed another year and came back. My son was earning very big money there but he said it did not compensate for what he had left behind. They like living in a country with a small population and an outdoor lifestyle. My son has restarted their business and they move into their big brand new home tomorrow. (My son designs and builds homes) DIL does the interior design. SAfricans do fit in well here as the culture is much the same including love of the same sporting codes. There is a lot to be said for being able to enjoy the outdoors all year. Even if its raining here in the winter we are never housebound. You can put on your coat and the Wellies and go for a brisk walk. We often went for bush walks with the kids when it rained Once we did a 12 mile hike in winter and rain round a track on the West Coast of Auckland. Great views of the Manukau Harbour. The kids really enjoyed it. We had a sausage sizzle under an overhang of rock at lunchtime.

I feel the same about the dog. Why did Lurie need to destroy it? He could have kept it. I found this part of the book difficult to read also. As I said before its quite a brutal book. The first time I read it I kept thinking. "I can't bear to turn another page" It deeply affected my emotions.

Carolyn

Lorrie
September 25, 2003 - 08:49 pm
Yes, I see what you mean about the last dog. In a way, it was like a final theatrical gesture, almost a gimmick the the author uses to make his point. No, I see no point in that dog's death, either.

Lorrie

I like these sidebar comments about SA and Australia. Conjecture from outsiders is never as authentic as someone who is actually a part of the scene we're discussing. I find it extremely interesting to read your points of view. You have been very welcome participants in this discussion.

Traude S
September 25, 2003 - 08:59 pm
HORSELOVER, I am sorry, but Lurie himself refers to "Lösung" (n.), an infamous term, and to "lösen" (v.) = a deliberate allusion by the author, I feel. One would have wished for a kinder ending. Certain passages of the book were painful to read; those referring to the dogs almost unbearable for me.

One year ago I lost my loyal Greyhound. I adopted her in 1991 from a rescue kennel here in Massachusetts; she had just been brought in from a racetrack in Connecticut.

The plight of the Greyhounds is shocking and heartbreaking. If they are not "money makers" on the track, they are casually 'discarded'. The "industry" is vague about the number of perfectly healthy dogs that are "put down" every year. I laud and praise the rescuers and will always be grateful to them.

I named her Zola, for SA barefoot runner Zola Budd. She was an incomparable, unforgettable companion. Late last summer she was visibly ailing; the vet found nothing. The malaise continued and, in despair, I went to a different veterinarian whose thorough examination included an X-ray and ultrasound. She was found to be bleeding internally from a large tumor on her spleen. There was no hope. I still miss her.

Traude S
September 25, 2003 - 09:07 pm
LORRIE, just saw your post. Yes, I agree. We are fortunate to have with us JEAN from SA, CAROLYN from NZ and now JAN from Australia. Ours is a true communion of the spirit. I salute each and everyone of you and thank you.

kiwi lady
September 25, 2003 - 10:26 pm
Traude - you too give much to our discussions. I always enjoy your thoughtful comments. Yes I know how much you miss your Zola. It was a terrible loss for you.

jeber
September 26, 2003 - 10:55 am
Yes, the reason most of the younger folk emigrate is because they fear for the future of their children in SA. Carolyn, I have to tell you my husband's two nieces and their families, now live in New Zealand, they left SA a few years ago. The eldest sister of the family along with her husband was killed in a car smash, leaving two very young children, the next sister & her husband adopted the two orphans, and as soon as the adoption was legal, they along with the youngest sister all left for NZ. I have a nephew and his family who now live in Brisbane, none of them has thoughts of returning to SA for more than a visit. One does indeed hear frequently "it is alright for us" i.e retired folk, but what about our children /grandchildren, and that is why people have emigrated in droves. There is currently a campaign to get young people to come back to SA, but figures released this week give the statistic that 32% of the working age population is unemployed,--- not a happy picture. I have mentioned before that my daughter lives in England now. I visit most years, and relatives and people whom I knew still live in very comfortable circumstances, mostly in the country. Canada has also proved a very popular place for S.Africans to relocate.

A bit off topic again, but nevertheless some more SA "background".

Jean

Lorrie
September 26, 2003 - 11:55 am
Not off-topic, really, Jean. Rather some more interesting background to our subject.

Now that we are getting colser to our closing, I wanted to comment on the "Byron thing" There were a few pertinent questions suggested in the study guide, and I would like to ask one of them here:

Why is Lurie so drawn to Byron? How does Byron's situation in Italy resemble Lurie's own?
What ironies do you see in the fact that Lurie composes the music for his opera on a banjo and that he considers including a part for a dog?


I must admit that part about the banjo and the dog baffled me. I'm afraid I'm a little too dense here to read any esoteric messages in this segment.

These next few days we will be discussing questions like this, and I would like to hear your overall opinion of the book, the author, the "plot".

Lorrie

Traude S
September 26, 2003 - 04:54 pm
Thank you for your last post, LORRIE, and the intruiging questions.

Before trying to answer them, let me say a few words about Byron, as promised. He was the most handsome, bravest, wittiest - as well as the most dissolute, reckless and flamboyant of the English Romantic Poets.

He was born in 1788 with a club foot. He and his abandoned mother lived in genteel poverty in Aberdeen, Scotland. At age 6, he unexpectedly became next in line to a title - his inheritance consisting largely of ruins and debts.

His forebears set a bad example : His grand-uncle, from whom he inherited the title, was called the "Wicked Lord" for killing a neighbor and presiding over orgies. His father, "Mad Jack" Byron, seduced rich heiresses, squandered their money, fled his debtors, and finally joined his equally loose-living sister in France, where they became lovers, and where he died when his son was 3 years old.



Young Lord Byron attended Harrow and Cambridge and, when he was not rushing off to London to participate in every kind of amusement available there, he started scribbling verses, which had an encouraging critical reception.

Like many young noblemen of the time, he wanted to go abroad. But the traditional pilgrimage through France and Italy was a bit hazardous in the midst of the Napoleonic Wars, so Byron chose an off-the-beaten-track journey through Portugal, Spain, Greece and Turkey. It inspired Child Harold's Pilgrimage , a long travel poem, and it made him famous.

Perhaps success spoiled Lord Byron : Titled women threw themselves at him; most persistent was Lady Caroline Lamb. When their brief affair was over, she took to stalking Byron everywhere in London = a huge embarrassment, but only the beginning of the scandals.



While growing up, Byron had seen little of his older half-sister Augusta, who, later, turned out to be neglected by her husband. Brother and sister began first an epistolary exchange, then physical consolations. Byron's friends were appalled and urged him to 'reform'. A brief marriage to an intelligent young heiress lasted barely a year. Byron left England in 1816, never to return.

to be continued

horselover
September 26, 2003 - 05:54 pm
Oh Traude, I'm so sorry about your dog, Zola. Greyhounds are such wonderful, beautiful, friendly animals. My town has many adopted greyhounds, and we all love to meet them walking down Main Street. Anyone who adopts and saves one of these special animals is a hero in my book!

Here is the web site for anyone who is interested: http://www.adopt-a-greyhound.org/

jeber
September 27, 2003 - 03:31 am
Do you think the banjo, because there was no other instrument readily available at the time, and there may not be any other significance---or is that suggestion too simplistic? The dog apparently likes the sound of the banjo, and as he says, " in a work that will never be performed, all things are permitted", so indeed why not a part for a dog! Earlier on there was a marked preference for the works of Wordsworth, but Wordsworth's lifestyle was not as intriguing or as decadent ( is that too strong a word?) as Byron's and therefore a work based on Byron's lifestyle would be of more interest generally.

I do have Byron's complete works as well as Wordsworth's, but no biographical notes are contained in either.

Incidentally, greyhound racing is not allowed in S Africa, horseracing yes, but dog racing no.

Jean

Traude S
September 27, 2003 - 10:04 am
After a long session here, ready to post the message, AOL cut me off. One of life's little, no MAJOR, annoyances ... Now let me reconstruct as best I can. And don't mind any typos, please.

HORSELOVER, thank you, thank you, from my heart. A few years ago we had a loud public outcry over Greyhound racing in our state; the treatment of the dogs when NOT racing; the casual tossing (!) over the fence of those hurt in a race, and - as I recall - the TV broadcasts of the races.

Emotions ran high; there was a furious media ad campaign, people talked about it in the supermarket --- for heaven's sake !! My own vet, the one who later found "nothing wrong" with my Zola, was non-committal. Hah~! I have since found out why, but that is not relevant in this context. The pro-Greyhound side lost by a very slim margin. The races continue to be aired -- chalk one up to the power of money.



JEAN, I'll start my answer again with the next post, so that at least this introduction will get through.

Traude S
September 27, 2003 - 10:54 am
Byron, continued.

Though an incredible wealth of information on Byron is available, my aim is to focus in on his last love affair, which so preoccupied Coetzee. But that is impossible without some kind of a summary. So please bear with me.

Byron's years in Europe were productive. Together with Percy Shelley and Leigh Hunt he formed the "Pisan Circle" of English literary exiles. That's when he wrote the second half of Child Harold, Manfred, Cain, The Prisoner of Chillon and other works, most of them wildly successful.

His personal life continued to be "busy", to put it gently. He was good friends with Percy Shelley and Mary Godwin- later Shelley's wife, and part of the ménage included Clare Clairmont, Mary's stepsister. She and Byron had a daughter together, Allegra. Allegra is featured in our book and we have to return to her later.

It was in Venice, where Byron lived riotously (and not only at the famous annual Carnevale) that he first met Teresa Guiccioli née Gamba, 19, newly married to thrice-as-old Count Guiccioli, whose third marriage this was. It was in January of 1818. Just imagine the electricity, the potential of this encounter !

I will continue but feel safer posting this now; I don't want to start again ...

Traude S
September 27, 2003 - 11:06 am
Byron, continued,

It is easy to see the mutual attraction : here is the famous good-looking, dimpled poet, who has literally "seen it all", and there is a young uninitiated woman. Their union apparently transcended the purely sexual aspect and seems to have provided a kind of new, unexpected hope for Byron, personally and in other aspects.

The affair caused yet another scandal, especially because the lovers often lived under the same roof (!!) with the cuckolded husband. However, the Guiccione and Gamba families were prominent, which may well have been the reason why the Pope entered the "dispute" and issued a "dispensation" under which Teresa and Byron were allowed to live with Teresa's father in Ravenna. Another triangle ~!!

I don't want to risk another abrupt cutoff from AOl and mail this now. But I'll be back.

horselover
September 27, 2003 - 02:43 pm
It is in the contrast between his august conceptions of man, and his contemptuous opinions of men, that much of the almost incomprehensible charm, and power, and enchantment, of his poetry consists. -John Wilson

Born in 1788, Byron is the most famous and controversial of his contemporaries. He was always a study in contrasts, a melancholy satirist, an aristocratic champion of the common man, handsome and adored but obsessed with a small personal deformity. He fled England to escape scandal and a failed marriage and died of fever in 1824. His natural gift for poetry was the only consistency in his troubled life. Yet even during his own lifetime, his personal life overshadowed his work. Sounds a little like Lurie, doesn't it?

Traude S
September 27, 2003 - 06:38 pm
Hastening in late.

Lurie's idea about "playing with the idea of a work on Byron" is first mentioned on pg. 4 of our book. Right at that time he is "bogged down in tedium, tired of prose" and wants to write music, a chamber opera, "something on the last years of Byron ...something for the stage", he tells Lucy. He'll "borrow the music for the most part", he says, without compunction.

But his artistic vision changes : Back in his ransacked house after 3 months with Lucy, he 'scales down' his original concept of "lush orchestration" ŕ la Strauss (Richard, presumably), leaning toward a "meagre" accompaniment - violin, cello, oboe, possibly bassoon. Even the sound of the piano is too "full". Then he retrieves the toy banjo he had once given to Lucy from the attic, and that will be the "voice" of the story. But Lurie (Coetzee) is still fascinated with threesomes : while he works away in the ruined house, subsisting on coffee and cereal, he lives with Teresa and Byron.

Then there are further changes in viewpoint : In "Byron in Italy" Lurie first thought of capturing Byron and Teresa at the height of passion. But by the time he returns (further demoralized) to Lucy's and the Eastern Cape, he has a different angle on his story : With Byron long gone, "walking among the shades", it becomes the futile lament of a "dumpy little widow keeping house for her aging father". The parallel with Lurie's own dwindling prospects is quite plain, I think, and the role of the loving deformed dog heartbreaking.

I'd better post this now lest I lose it all again.

Traude S
September 27, 2003 - 07:17 pm
The reader does not know why Lurie (Coetzee?) felt such extraordinary affinity for Byron, and idle speculation is of no use, I think. Yet, I ask, is there REALLY a valid comparison between Lurie, the 52-year old libidinous professor preoccupied with age, filled with anxiety about his diminishing sexual prowess, and the legendary Byron ?

True, Byron was reinvigorated (saved??) by Teresa, his last love ... even so, he did not stay put but went off to Greece where he died.

For his part, Lurie could not dismiss (nor forget) Melanie as easily as the other casual partners in his regular sexual encounters. He made her into an ideal, "salvation personified".

With due respect it seems to me that all things were NOT equal, circumstances were vastly different, and whatever connection, real or implied, is tenuous IMHO.

To Allegra tomorrow.

Lorrie
September 27, 2003 - 07:33 pm
Traude, that is atremendously in depth post! Wonderful. And yours, too, Horselover!

Traude asks "Yet, is there really a comparison between Lurie, the 52-year old libidinous professor preoccupied with age, filled with anxiety about his diminishing sexual prowess, and the legendary Byron ?" and I say yes, in Lurie's own mind.

I do thank you for the informative report of Byron--So much more than what is usually found in dry encyclopediae.

Lorrie

kiwi lady
September 27, 2003 - 08:54 pm
Yes Lorrie that is about the only conclusion one could come to. Traude thank you for the background on Byron. I was never really into Byron.

Hats
September 27, 2003 - 10:09 pm
Traude and Horselover, thank you for the background information about Byron.

Lorrie and Carolyn, I think Lurie did see his life as similar to the life of Byron. This explains his fascination with Byron.

Lorrie
September 28, 2003 - 09:56 am
At the end, Coetzee writes, as Lurie: "With luck, she will last a long time, long behind him. When he is dead, she will, with luck, still be here doing her ordinary tasks among the flowerbeds. And from within her will have issued another existence, that with luck will be just as solid, just as long-lasting. So it will go on, a line of existences in which his share, his gift, will grow inexorably less and less, till it may as well be forgotten."

This seems a very appropriate note on which to bring our discussion to a close. I want to tell you all how much I have enjoyed talking about this book. It's been a good discussion, don't you think? All your posts have been right to the point, and we have often talked TO each other, rather than AT one another. I thank you all so very much for your participation. Jean, and Caroline, don't let the distances keep either of you from returning to other discussions, and Horselover, I will look for you in other places.

You might all want to check out the exciting new project we are developing here on SeniorNet. Combining a PBS documentary along with a discussion by us on the same subject. Read all about it, and then join us on Sept. 30.

HORATIO'S DRIVE

Lorrie

Traude S
September 28, 2003 - 10:37 am
We are coming to the end of our time together. For me it is often difficult to find the coda, which is true in this case.

Let me please say a few words about Carla Allegra, the love child of Lord Byron and Claire Clairmont, Mary Shelley's stepsister. The child is a haunting semi-presence in our book.

Allegra was shuttled between acquaintances and friends; at one point Claire deposited her on Byron's doorstep. The child ended up in a convent (also described as a convent school), where she died of a fever at age 5.

Thank you, HORSELOVER, for the link with the picture of Byron. For additional family pictures, please check
http://www.englishhistory.net/byron/images.html

and for Teresa :

http://www.englishhistory.net/byron/images/teresa.jpg

and about Allegra, if you wish to check :


http://www.xs4all.nl/~androom/biography/p004287.htm

Traude S
September 28, 2003 - 10:52 am
Just checked the previous post and am glad the links are working.

Our joint literary journey has ended. This deceptively simple short novel (220 pp) has generated a very satisfying, in-depth exchange. My gratitude goes to my co-host, LORRIE, and to all of you who have participated, posted, and/or were otherwise silently present in our midst.

Lover of books, all, we are bound to meet in B&L again ! With warm regards,

Traude

Lorrie
September 28, 2003 - 09:32 pm
Traude, thank you very much for that information about Allegra, of whom I am sorry to say I had known little. Your link certainly helped there.

Also, I would be very remiss not to mention what a gratifying experience it has been working with you, Traude. You have been an excellent co-host and i can only hope that we can repeat it, sometime. Thank you for making this discussion even more interesting.

Lorrie

jeber
September 29, 2003 - 10:52 am
Thanks for all the painstaking research on Lord Byron Traude. I thought I'd look to see if he wrote any lines or sonnets to Theresa however although he wrote to numerous women , she was not amongst them! The only reference was that the Prophecy of Dante was dedicated to the Countess of Guiccioli. Ravenna.June 21st 1819. I have enjoyed the "company" of all in this discussion, the various views and opinions have been stimulating. Unfortunately books here are very expensive, there has been a call at least for VAT to be excluded, but so far no luck. Hopefully I shall be able to participate again at some time.

Incidentally, have recently finished the Memoirs of the Duchess of Winsor aka Mrs. Simpson, quite a character.

Jean

kiwi lady
September 29, 2003 - 01:35 pm
Yes Traude and Lorrie I have enjoyed your input very much. You make me feel quite dumb sometimes! This has been a worthwhile experience however painful it was to look at the issues presented in this book.

Jean I too find it off putting with having the prices we have here on books. The Sixpence House is $50.00 about twice the price as the USA and I guess its even worse for you as the rand is much lower than our dollar. I don't have a lot of disposable income either so a book is a treat. Recently my son gave me $100 and I ordered my first books from B&N for some years - it was so thrilling to do this. Do you have any good second hand book stores near you? We have a couple of good ones, the second hand prices are the same as the USA new prices but still half the price of a new one here. Now and again I find one for a discussion. I got Julius Caesar and Lesson in Dying second hand here. I can just phone them too as their inventory is on their PC files and they can tell me straight away if they have the book I want.

I can't wait for November to start Ghandi! We learn so much from the non fiction discussions. I am really into biographies at the moment and loving every minute of it. I have Hillarys book on one side and its a mine of information. She is one very clever lady. I had to laugh as there are a whole lot of dear old souls who have ordered the book from the library thinking its going to be all about the Lewinsky affair and there is only a small proportion of the book devoted to this. Its a book you have to read slowly and carefully as its so full of information. Ruth ( my tenant and chum since childhood) has just finished the Clinton Years by Sydney Blumenthal and she could not put it down. She read all night and all day. Its a huge book and she said its the best book she has read for many a year - so thats something as Ruth is a very discerning reader. I have so many books lined up to read! Its mindboggling.

Thanks again to everyone for a very thoughtful discussion.

Carolyn

Malryn (Mal)
October 2, 2003 - 07:00 am
J. M. Coatzee wins the Nobel Prize for literature

Lorrie
October 2, 2003 - 07:51 am
Thanks, Mal. I will also post this in other discussions. Can we pick them, or not!!!

Lorrie

Traude S
October 2, 2003 - 08:28 am
MAL, many thanks for posting this information.

The Nobel Prize for Coetzee ! Mamma mia ! What an honor! I could not be more delighted, and I hope all of our dear friends who joined LORRIE and me in our discussion of DISGRACE will be pleased by the news.

At the end of a discussion I sometimes find it hard to "let go"; that was true here. I had a similar reaction after the discussion of The Human Stain by Philip Roth (which has since been made into a movie) and Mating by Norman Rush (both archived).

With us during our discussion of DISGRACE was a South African reader who gave us her personal insights about life in contemporary South Africa. She also mentioned that Coetzee's latest book, Elizabeth Costello, was a possible contender for yet another Booker Prize.

But to even be awarded the Booker Prize for one specific work twice, as happened to Coetzee, is a rarity. Coetzee is now at the pinnacle of his literary career because the Nobel Prize recognizes the entire body of a writer's work.

Many thanks, MAL.

Marjorie
October 2, 2003 - 07:47 pm
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