---Don Quixote ~ Cervantes ~ Prediscussion Export

Don Quixote, the story of a middle-aged man who has read so many romances of knightly courage, he decides to try it himself - alone. Above all, this is the story of a man at odds with his world.

Is the Don truly mad?

Is this comedy?

How does Cervantes view his "hero?"

Can a man shape his world?
Or does his world shape him?

Be not daunted, brave hearts, you will not be alone. Join the madness beginning Saturday, April 15! Courage!

Discussion Leaders: JoanP ~ Maryal(Deems)

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I'm reading a Christmas book in small delicious doses. - Jane Smiley's 13 Ways of Looking at the Novel. This author was suffering from writers' block, so she set out on a project - reading 100 novels in a year, to see how authors did it. I was interested in her candidates for the greatest - you don't have to agree with her, I just think the list is of interest to us following our recent nominations/discussion-

- Don Quixote (Cervantes)
- Middlemarch (Eliot)
- Anna Karenina (Tolstoy)
- Our Mutual Friend (Twain)
- Moby-Dick (Melville)
- The Past Recaptured (Proust)

Ms. Smiley also said something that interested me very much about how she chose the 100 novels to read:

1. Books she had read before and forgot.

2. Books she always meant to read

3. Books she had never wanted to read, but knew they were important.

So. How about you? What is your reason for reading Don Quixote at this time in your life? I think I'm somewhere between two and three. (I fear I'm Quixote)

Ahhhh, well I for one am very happy that we are about to read--in April--Don Quixote and not Remembrance of Things Past. I'm planning to not live long enough to read that one. Heh.

Anyhoo, I'm looking forward to our adventure into this novel, the very first novel as it turns out.

Interesting tib-bit: Cervantes and Shakespeare were exact contemporaries. They both died on April 23, 1616. However, lucky for us, we won't have to deal with late sixteenth, early seventeenth century Spanish which must have been quite different from the Spanish spoken today.

I've only read long exerpts from Don Quixote in the past. This will be my first time reading the entire work. It's really quite a romp at times. You won't think once of Middlemarch.

So off we go from often rainy England to sunny Spain!

Maryal

"Remembrance of Things Past" was one of those books I always thought I should read. I finally read the first volume ("Swann's Way" -- there are a zillion volumes) in a modern translation (I don't remember the translator, but he rendered the title "In Search of Lost Time).

That was enough for me. But I would recommend the first BOOK of the first Volume (about the first hundred pages) very highly. It describes his childhood in the country, and there are some passages (mostly description or thoughts) that are incredible -- well worth the price of admission. In the second book, he moves to Paris, to show how boring and stupid salon life is. He succeeds so well, I was completely bored and stupefied!

JOAN, like ALF and DEEMS, I couldn't be happier about the choice. It was long in coming.
I read the book in German ages ago but never in English, so this will be a great adventure. First I'll check the library to see which translation(s) are there and what they look like (for most legible print), then order my own copy.

Hola, Maryal and JoanP and everyone! I'm so excited we're reading the Don. I'm definitely a #2 on your list. When I retired a couple of years ago, I started reading all of these classics I had never had a chance to read. But, I never made it to this one. I often love books that I hear others have hated, though - like Moby Dick. So, even though some weren't interested in this one, I'm thinking positively.

Is that true that this is considered the first novel? I had no idea. That is very cool. How could anyone not want to try that? And to hear Cervantes and Shakespeare died on the same day!!?? Reminds me of Adams and Jefferson dying on the same 4th of July!

Marni

I'm very happy too! Thanks for taking on this giant job. It will be a memorable reading experience for me - I'm so looking forward to the reading and the chatter.

For me Q is one I've read before (maybe in the late 1950s) so have more than half forgotten - know it is important and want to read it again.

I've started to re-read it several times, usually spurred on when a film comes out or is re-run (remember Peter O'Toole's Man of LaMancha and there was one with Robin Williams) I get to read a few episodes then start browsing frantically before putting the book aside AGAIN for one reason or another. Thinking about that right now as I type this I'd say time or lack of it was always a major factor - so maybe now is the right time for me though as always, time is a scarce commodity.

Anyway I'm poised and ready to go! Have we settled on a preferred translation yet?

As for Proust - I think I made it through 3 and into the 4th volume though that took several attempts so I know the first volume pretty well. I got that far by listening to the audio book while following the text. I mean to try again provided of course that I do live that long.

I bought the book last year (a new translation) and started with New York Times group but they discuss books after reading them rather during the reading. Hope to finish the book with this group.

The cover on my translation is the same as the above picture. Don't have the book handy so don't remember who was the translator.

Gosh, I've been waiting and wondering where all the knights-errant would be assembling.

Never read any Proust and from all I hear, I doubt I will. I'm a bit anxious about DON. I am willing to give it a try, but my expectations are not so good. Perhaps I will be pleasantly surprised - I'm trying to have an open mind.

I would definitely agree with Smiley about MIDDLEMARCH. It was my favorite book for '06. Just loved it. Right up my alley.

Joan, do you have the whole list to post? I wondering if it's anywhere online? Don't type the whole thing, but I am a list person. Whether I agree or not isn't the popint, I just find it interesting to see what someone else thought was great.

I have chosen to join the group in reading "Don Quixote" because it is about an adventure. In an adventure I expect to meet, maybe, eccentric individuals. I am also expecting strange events or dangerous situations to occur. I also hope Don Quixote is not a well travelled individual. So, I hope he will make some laughable mistakes. In that last instance, I am thinking of myself. If I had to travel across the sea for the first time, I would make some memorable booboos. Trying to get a passport, order a foreign dish, knowing the right gestures would turn me inside out in moments.

So, I might have something in common with Don Quixote.

Oh, maybe Don Quixote will have romantic adventures too.

Last, but not least, I will like to learn about Spain, something other than bulls and matadors.

If I had to fit myself in number one, two or three. I would have to fit myself in number three.

Books she had never wanted to read, but knew they were important.

Well, my copy of Don Q is on its way to me, and I'm eager to start. I think there will not only be adventure and strange events, but also humor. I'm looking forward to it.

BTW- apparently, I'm not the only one who was attracted to the nice red cover.

I also like the paper this book is printed on. Maybe it's just me, but that counts- especially when I have to be spending months with it.

A correction...Jane didn't read all those books in one year, but three. She lost her writing voice after 9/11 and spent the next three years reading, rather than writing. For our listkeeper, Scootz - Jane Smiley's list of 100 Novels - 3 year reading list

Maryal, off to not so sunny London tonght...maybe I can change planes for sunny Spain? That is really an interesting tidbit - Shakespeare and Cervantes died the same date! Amazing.

JoanK- "The Past Recaptured" (Proust) - I don't think I've ever seen "Remembrance of Things Past" translated like that, have you?

Traude, I hope you will report here on the readability of the translations you see on the library shelf. Your enthusiasm is welcomed.

_ Marni, that's an interesting question - "Is that true that this is considered the first novel? When you get your copy of the novel, you'll see that it is divided into two volumes. Cervantes wrote volume I when he was nearly 50. As I understand it, there were no novels as we know them at this time - as we understand them - in which the hero undergoes significant change in his mental state. Volume I is a string of adventures - much like Canterbury Tales, I gather. They are entertaining, we come to know the Don and his pal Sancho, but they undergo no change. So. Volume I is NOT considered a modern novel.

Cervantes worked on Volume II for the next 10 years. It is Volume II that gives the work the distinction of being called the first modern novel..."the novel all future novels answer to." Milan Kndera

Soooo, that means in order to see why this is considered the FIRST MODERN NOVEL, you MUST stick it out to Volume II this time, Gum! hahaha, no I promise, we'll have fun with the escapades in Vol. I - just as we did in Canterbury Tales!

Hats - "Eccentric individuals" - oh yes, Hats. But perhaps none as eccentric as our Don! I'm looking forward to getting into the psyche of the medieval knight - and especially into the mind of the author - what makes him laugh- and cry.

Scootz,

I care about the paper too. I don't like really thin paper, do you?

Scootz, the one with the red cover that you see in the heading is Edith Grossman's. How do you find the print - and the paper? And the readability of the text. A big plus I noticed about this edition is that it comes with an Introduction by Harold Bloom. I don't think he would have become involved with a translation he found lacking in fluidity.

I have Raffel's 1999 edition - the print is small, but not too small for me - I'm on drug store reading glasses - up to 3.00 magnification. I'm fine with the Raffel, it is quite easy to read - what I like about it is that it is the Norton Critical Edition with a number of essays included. I've had trouble before with the Norton's print size and thin pages. This edition is not that tissue paper, but a good weight. That is something for a book of this length.

Joan- Firstly, I keep meaning to comment on that lovely picture of you and your hub at the Book Nook. You two make a handsome couple!

I have printed out the Smiley list to persue at my leisure. As I scrolled down, I see ATONEMENT ( only an all time favorite of my life) and know I may like this list!

Re the Grossman edition:

I find the print just fine, and love the paper texture- it has that torn edge thing goin' on, if you know what I mean. I can't comment too much on text readability. I am going to try and stick more with the group this time and not get too far ahead in my reading. I find that makes me lose interest, in some respects.

Yes, the nod from Harold Bloom impressed me, too.

Hats- no, I don't like that tissue paper type stuff. Too easily torn for my money, and I don't like the feel. I was just saying to someone else today that I like to go to the bookstore and actually handle the book before I buy it. Anyone else fussy like that? I like to see how it's printed, etc before I lay down my cash.

What is your reason for reading Don Quixote at this time in your life?

I'd have to say "none of the above" for those reasons. It's not something that I've desired reading at any point. I didn't vote for it. I know it's an important book, but that's not why I'm joining.

Truthfully, I admire the way the book groups are conducted here, and how focused they are. I don't find that quality in many online groups. So, I started with MIDDLEMARCH, and never did complete it with the group (though I did on my own) and have wanted to come back and try again. So...that's probably more than you wanted to know, but that's my real reason.

That's an interesting list (I like lists, too). I counted up for myself, and got the following tally:

I've read: 23

Started but not finished: 15

Want to read but haven't gotten around to: 9

Don't want to read, or never heard of: 51

Pat-

Glad to hear you say you had over half that you never heard of. Me, too!

Read-25

Have never even heard of for Pete's sakes- 34 (this would be higher if I added those I have no desire to read)

Haven't read, but want to- only 4

and discovered that there were at least thirty I have not read.

Have you all noticed that for some writers, she has more than one book? In several cases, I've read the author but not the particular book she has on the list. I've read a lot of Updike, for example, but not Bech, a Book.

I got up to thirty before I lost count (near the end of the list).

There are several books that I've never heard of and at least one that I'm betting that nobody has ever heard of.

That one is The Saga of the People of Laxadal. I have heard of the author though. Heh.

Good to see such an enthusiastic group gathering here.

I think I'll check out the book with the red cover. I like red. Easy to find in piles of other books.

~Maryal

We're out the door.... taking Don with me. I suggest you read the Prologue - tis only a few pages and you get the feel for the translator's rhythm and use of the language.

Jane Smiley has a section on each of the 100 books she read. Will share what she has to say about the more obscure titles when I get home next week.

Later!

ps. Maryal, the Raffel has a red cover too.

Bon Voyage, JOAN P!

The Raffel I checked out had a grey cover with a drawing of Don Q and Sancho Panza in the background. They must have changed the cover. But the publisher was Norton so we are talking about the same translation.

I sat down at Border's cafe this afternoon on my way home from school and looked at both the Raffel and Grossman translations (there was also one by a 19th c. writer but I left it on the shelf). I compared the beginning of Chaper 61 in Volume II in both editions. Very interesting.

Certainly no big difference in meaning. I liked some sentences better in one and some in the other. Keep in mind that I was only judging the sentences in English and not comparing them to late 16th century Spanish which, even if I'd had a copy, I can't read. So, they came out about even. What I really wanted to do was take sentences from one and import them into the other.

Yup, I actually wanted to borrow from both and make my own text--no translation work and the sentences I liked best--to produce a "new" and wonderful dual translation.

This, of course, would be both unethical and illegal.

So, I ended up buying the red cover with helmet one (Grossman) simply because I liked the paper better and there were fewer words on each page. Truly, that is the reason.

~Maryal

MARYAL: does that mean the Grossman has bigger print? this is an issue fr me since my eyes get tired really quickly with small print.

Joan K--I think the print might be just a little tiny bigger. Not much, but I found Grossman easier to read. That might be the size of the print, but I attributed it to fewer words on the page.

I should have paid more attention.

Thanks, Deems. I ordered the Grossman from Amazon. They said it will come the 29th or 30th.

Interesting that the character has to change to be considered a modern novel. DQ must have been based on earlier stories of knights errand like Gawain (?) but did they change?

Okay, sign me up. I don't know if I want to read this now or not. I have been reading up on Spanish history over the past two years, slowly but steadily. It's a unique country, with a powerful literary tradition. However, I have a major fund-raiser at the end of the month, which will kill me, timewise. But I'm going to try. Plus, frankly, I like the cover of the red book. Can I pick a translation based on that, the cover? Why not?

I'm glad that so many people liked Middlemarch as much as I do. It's simply a book I've loved and enjoyed all of my life. Of all the books that were nominated, in the end, I think Don Quixote will be the best fit in my current schedule.

Let's set a moderate pace, though, if possible, JoanP and Maryal? I'm enjoying My Name Is Red but feel like I'm in a race reading it. I think it needs a bit slower going, and my impression is that Cervantes is the same, a more leisurely book.

Too bad for all those poor teachers who make something so extraordinary, the translation of literature, a chore that one despises.

I don't know how much Spanish has changed in the last 500 years, anyone know? Traude?

Kleo

And we’re off and running (or galloping.) Traude- Talk about daunting- you read this in German? Holy-smokes I’ll be pleased to get thru this in English, but like Marni- I’m thinking positively knowing we can not be steered wrong (no pun intended) by our fearless leaders Joan and Maryal.
Maybe we should just “can” Cervantes and read Maryal’s rendidtion. Ahahah ”Yup, I actually wanted to borrow from both and make my own text--no translation work and the sentences I liked best--to produce a "new" and wonderful dual translation.”
Will we be choosing our own character Joan, as we did in Canterbury Tales, during our long trip? It’s kind of frightening to know that during our trek armor and a “hard hat” will be necessary.
I must go right now and check which translation is on the library edition that I have. Do we figure this one for over the summer Joan? Perhaps I might need to purchase the book if that is the case.

Joan's in England (and France too I think) for a week, so I'll answer any questions I can.

We'll take plenty of time, going slowly. I think Joan was estimating somewhere around four months. It's a long book. I think maybe My Name is Red could have used two months instead of one given that folks have other projects going and sometimes drop out if they drop behind.

I speak only of myself here. I was enjoying the discussion of Red and then Spring Break came and I got way behind and then Spring Break was over and I had a lot of other reading to do. So I'll finish it this summer.

Anyhoo, fear not, we will take out time and explore this many dimensioned book at our leisure.

As for picking characters, Andy, there aren't very many at the beginning, not many who stay in the story that is. Maybe we'll pick a few to identify with later. Initially there are really only two major ones, the Don and Sancho Panza.

Maryal

Joan said: I suggest you read the Prologue - tis only a few pages and you get the feel for the translator's rhythm and use of the language.

Does this mean we can discuss the prologue, or is all discussion off till the 15th? What is ok to talk about till then?

Scootz--I have no idea what Joan meant when she suggested we read the Prologue (that would be Cervantes' prologue and not the Introduction by Bloom or the translator depending on what translation you have.

It's fine by me if we talk about the Prologue. In the red book (Grossman translation) the Prologue runs from 5-9.

How about the rest of you? Want to discuss it?

Maryal

I'm up for looking at the prologue, though I know there are some gals who don't have the book yet. I'll wait and see what the consensus is. I want to read up a bit on Cervantes as well, in the meantime.

Reading about Cervantes, I see he is known as the "cripple of Lepanto" . This is the same battle told about at the back of the MY NAME IS RED book, (for those who are reading it this month),between the Ottomans and the Christians. I thought that was interesting and coincidental since I'd never heard of Lepanto before.

The list of 100 novels was interesting. I did a count, too (not sure it's very accurate, I kept finding new ones. But here it is:

Read all of: 37 

Read a substantial part of but didn’t finish: 6 

Read different work by same author: 9 

Wanted to read: 4 

Never heard of author: 28

This tells me some things about myself. When I want to read a book, I usually take a stab at it. I usually finish, but most of those on the list are reasonably modern book that are relatively short and easy reading. The ones I didn't finish were "Tales of Gengii", "Don Quixote", "Remembrance of Things Past", "Tristran Shanty", "Candide", "Main Street". Most of these are long books.

Like JoanK I didn't finish the Gengi (tried hard) or Remembrance of Things Past (6? Vols) either - have never tried Main Street. For the record I've -

Read all of 52 (predominantly from the early novels)

Read a substantial part but not finished 8

Read the author but not that title 12

Wanted to read of feel I should 8

Never heard of title or author 16 (mainly the later novels)

I like the 18th, 19th and early 20th century works so have covered a lot of ground in that area. Didn't do so well in the later writers from about No. 80 onwards but have read some

I'm interested in literary history generally (albeit in a haphazard and lazy kind of way) and think Smiley's list is very carefully chosen, especially in relation to her stated intention to better understand the nature of the novel because most of her list focusses on novels which have made a major contribution to the novel either by way of being a 'first' or being excellent of a kind. The whole concept and development of the novel is intriguing and for me is an endless source for study and enjoyment. So I'll have to get Smiley's book!

It's interesting that she chose my favourite Austen, 'Persuasion' to represent Jane - I guess she'd read all the others.

I think Christina Stead is the lone Australian - a good choice though we have lots more to offer - some are as long or longer than Q or MM.

It's Saturday here - a glorious autumn afternoon and I should be in the garden!

Never having read much fiction until I retired and found this group, I have to admit I've only read nine of the books on Jane Smiley's list -- plus have seen the film version of a few others. Am glad to see one of my favorites on the list -- P. G. Wodehouse! Have a copy of his biography.

Sorry, cannot locate the famous list y'all are talking about! Hint?

MIPPY: a link t it was posted in message 13. Here is the link again:

JANE SMILEY'S LIST OF 100 NOVELS

I found a compter place in London...not hard to do. They are every 50 feet or so. This one is fairly inexpensive and not too crowded for a Saturday. Now if I can master this keyboard.

Kleo - glad to have you with us. Yes, we'll take our time! As long as we need. Yes, a good reason to choose a translation - an attractive cover!

The reason I mentioned reading the Prologue was to sample the translator's language. Please let's not discuss the prologue here - we'll move to a new page on April 15 and I think it only fair to wait until all who are going to join us are in on such a discussion. OKAY?

Now, back to the sightseeing - Bruce will kill me if I spend more than 30 minutes in here. He'd die if he saw where I am...a dark basement area with many of the folks in corners smoking hookah pipes. Is that how you spell it?

Outa here!

Joan

Gumtree, I'd love to hear your comments on some Australian authors--I'm deplorably ignorant on the subject. I tried Patrick White a few years ago, but in the book I started he did a superb job of getting inside the heads of some characters who were so mean-spirited, unloving, and manipulative that after a while I couldn't stand living in their heads any more, and had to stop. It certainly was good writing, though.

Maybe I'll try Christina Stead.

JoanP, but think what a liberal atmosphere you are being exposed to there in the smoky basement.

Have fun -- take pictures and have someone take a picture of you and Bruce.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I would love to see that internet cafe in London where Joan wrote us the above message.

I found an internet cafe in Bar Harbor, Maine with some sinister sorts sitting around in a very dark area, but no hookahs. Must get to London soon.

And we won't discuss the prologue until we get to the new page. I assume it's OK to get some background on our author though.

Cervantes, when he was only 24, served in the Spanish navy that fought in the Battle of Lepanto (1571). He was wounded multiple times and his left hand was so damaged that he never had use of it again. It was this huge naval battle that was responsible for keeping the Ottoman Empire from proceeding any further into Europe.

from the online Catholic Encyclopedia: "Occupied by the Turks in 1498, Lepanto is chiefly celebrated for the victory which the combined papal, Spanish, Venetian, and Genoese fleets, under Don John of Austria, gained over the Turkish fleet on 7 Oct., 1571. The latter had 208 galleys and 66 small ships; the Christian fleet about the same number."

Cervantes was proud of participating in this battle for the rest of his life.

~Maryal

A nitpick.

Earlier, we discussed the fact that Don Quixote is considered the first novel, because it is the first work of (prose) fiction where the protagonist's character changes. That got me curious about whether some of the "novels" on Jane Smiley's list should be considered novels by that definition. The "Tale of Genji" certainly predates the Don: it's author, Murasaki Shikibu, lived around 1000 AD. I didn't get far enough into it to find out if Genji's character changes, but I suspect it doesn't.

Can you think of others that don't meet that requirement? What do you think of that definition of a novel? Is it widely used? Does it meet our sense of what a novel is?

While I'm nitpicking:

When I thought we might be reading Don Quixote, I tried to explain to my SIL what a "picaresque" novel was. I thought I knew, and that "Don Quixote" was always given as an example. Silly me! According to the Wikipedia, Don is NOT a picaresque novel. And apparently there are dissertations and professional papers written trying to define the term. I won't bore you with them: here, for better or worse, is Wikipedia (remember. it's written by readers).

PICARESQUE

Anyway, whether picaresque or not, there were a series of novels written that in some sense are "like" Don - a character (anti-hero?)traveling through a society meeting incidents or adventure that reveal the society (satirically?) and his character (and it's changes?). I have a mental picture in my mind of the "flavor" of such a novel that I got from somewhere and that may be completely off base (Tom Jones, Pickwick Papers etc.)

If the definition of "novel" is this thorny, maybe we'd better skip it.

Joan K--I think that Don Quixote is considered the first modern novel because it is not just a series of episodes, but rather characters change and develop. The development chiefly takes place in Volume II, published in 1615, ten years after Volume I.

The stories that precede DQ are romances such as those about the Grail by Chretien DeTroyes (12th century) and some 13th century romances (they were very popular) by anonymous. Also these romances were chiefly poetry and not prose.

The picaresque novel in English is the only one I am familiar with. Tom Jones which is literally a series of episodes one after another that are loosely connected, but with Tom remaining essentially the same, is the one I know best.

Elements of the picaresque can also be found in Huckleberry Finn, where Huck and Tom have all sorts of adventures on their way down the Mississippi. Ditto for Kerouac's On the Road as recently as the 1950s.

I've read all of The Tale of Genji, and no, she doesn't change. No one changes in that very long prose work. And it is very episodic. And lonnggg.

~Maryal

A relief to know we aren't starting yet. I haven't ordered the book yet!

A Spanish teacher, a colleague of my son, has asked me to check a list of terms she has prepared in foreign languages for foreign exchange students. She wants to make signs. She found the information on the net and e-mailed me the list (from her PC to my Mac).

The words with diacritical marks are mangled but correctible. But the transscription of the Russian words is completely off. There is no downloadable Cyrillic alphabet available on the net (only the sounds they represent) so that I have to print the letters by hand in finished form to avoid errors by others in copying the strange-looking, alien symbols.

ALF, "daunting", not really. I read DQ in German because German is my native tongue. In our all-girls school we had Latin and French first and English when we turned 16.

JOAN K. Yes, there were profound changes in all living European languages over the centuries, particularly after the advent of the industrial age and the countless inventions made since. A spoken language is fluid, continuously absorbs new concepts and words to match - (many of them surely beyond the comprehension of our own grandparents, were they to peek in).

Pat H : Patrick White is not for everyone - Nobel Laureate though he be.There is no question that his prose is superb and sometimes profound but I have heard grown men and women praise his work whilst simultaneously groaning audibly at the very mention of his name.

Your comment on his 'mean spirited and unloving' characters could be applied to several of his novels. I wonder were you reading 'The Eye of the Storm'? White was a pessimist by nature I think and took a tragic view of life but through his unappealing and less than ideal characters he shows us our dark side, our strength to endure and ultimately our tragedy. Great stuff - perhaps something of an acquired taste but worth the effort.

For me his best was 'The Vivesector' dealing with the artist in an uncongenial and unsupportive environment. Also 'Voss' is interesting as he fictionalises the explorer Ludwig Leichhardt's great but fatal exploration of inland Australia.

Christina Stead is quite different. She is not always seen as being Australian. She was born in Sydney but lived most of her life abroad and very little of her work has an Aust. setting or content. 'The Man Who Loved Children' (on Smiley's list) and 'For Love Alone' are her best and reflect something of her life as an artist living abroad.

I'm pretty sure it was "Eye of the Storm" I started, but can't find the book to check. I started "Voss" too, and liked it much better, but got interrupted and never went back to it. I thought his portrayal of Laura was particularly good--an unusual feat for a male writer.

What's with the font size=7? I can't read the messages, and did a search to find what was said about Patrick White but couldn't find it, and again, couldn't read the messages because of the huge font.

On the Picaresque novels, a friend just loaned me Grimmelshausen's Simplicissimus. A bit funny that I'm reading literature and books about Spanish history, this is a Spanish novel form, and it turns out I'm reading a German one. Just a bit off the going trend, it seems.

Kleo

Kleo--Sorry about the font size. I think I'm the sinner. I put "love" in large font and blue in my message above.

Do you have a Mac?

I won't use that large a font again. I just really wanted to stress how much I would love to see the internet cafe where Joan was, in London.

~maryal

I have a Mac and didn't have any trouble with the font, even though I was looking at messages during the times others were having problems. I'd love to see that cafe, too.

Pat H--Interesting. Thanks for telling me.

It's fine on Firefox too. I almost never use IE or Netscape any more unless I am checking something.

I'm using Firefox, too. Maybe that's the relevant point.

Pat H--It is the relevant factor! I just opened IE and looked at my message----HUGE print like Kleo said. The Love was in blue and all the words after it went to black, but the size remained the same.

Astonishing. Hoo NEW?

Apologies all around to those of you who had huge type because of me. Won't change size any more.

Maryal

I'm glad someone else saw it on IE--it made my eyes swim.

You simply have to remember to CLOSE the tag, Maryal, that means when you use ‹FONT SIZE=7› be sure to put ‹/FONT› AFTER the word you want in bigger font, so that it closes or tells the browser when to stop using that bigger font.

I ‹FONT SIZE=7›LOVE ‹/FONT›to add a little emphasis here and there.

Becomes, when you see it on the board:

I LOVE to add a little emphasis here and there.

Maryal, many other bulletin boards on the Internet automatically close any font or certain other tags that users post so it doesn't run over into other posts. SeniorNet doesn't do this, so you may not have realized the importance of closing tags. Still, whether other boards cut you slack, it's a good idea to use tags in pairs.

Also, as folks pointed out, your own browser may show you something than others see. Internet Explorer has a tendency to make things a bit difficult for its users at times.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I'm a bit font shy now about posting my own example.

Kleo

MARYAL, my Mac registered the large letters, but I attributed them (correctly, it turns out) to your joy about JOAN's post. Absolutely no problem. Her post was exuberant and made me want to pack up and leave ...

KLEO, "Simplicissimus", published in 1668, is in large part autobiographical: Hans Jakob von Grimmelshausen (*1622)lived in the turbulent period of the Thirty Years' War (1618-1648), an era of protracted violence and bloodshed, when marauding soldiers of various persuasions and stripes criss-crossed Europe from North to South and East to West several times over.

I attended a meeting this afternoon; the refreshments offered afterwards were tea and Madelaines.
It made me think of the recent posts about Marcel Proust, who had sealed himself off in a padded room in his large apartment, languidly nibbling at Madelaines while working night and day for years to complete the volumes that make up À la recherche du temps perdu. (They are actually a bit bland.)

I was interested to see Deems' post about Cervantes' participation in the naval Battle of Lepanto (1571). That certainly must have had a great impact on the rest of his life.

Last year or so I read a wonderful historical novel about the Ottoman naval attack and siege of Malta in 1565, a precursor to the Battle of Lepanto in which some of the same warriors participated. Malta at the time was the home of the Hospitallers, Knights of the Order of St. John, who also fought in the Battle of Lepanto.

For anyone interested in a thrilling and graphic historical novel of European vs Ottoman naval battles and warfare of this time period, the novel is Ironfire : An Epic Novel of Love and War by David Ball.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385338066/102-5960736-0248911?v=glance&n=283155

Marni

JoanP,

I missed your earlier message. You wrote about laughter as well as tears. That part of your message really peaked my interest, especially the "tears." I, like some other people wrote in a discussion, can identify quicker with tragedy than comedy.

Deems,

It is very interesting to learn about the author's life. This book is soooo huge. For a few days now I have begun to feel a bit seasick just looking at the outside of the book, Don Quixote. I am just taking it a day at a time.

Marni,

Thank you for the title of the book and the clickable. We are visiting the "Ottoman Empire" while reading "My Name is Red."

Apology to all posters, if I miss messages, I am not ignoring the posts. I just have trouble seeing lately. I might need to make my font size larger. I missed JoanP's whole message. I might have missed other messages in this discussion or other discussions.

KleoP - Post 37 will explain how Patrick White came up. PatH asked for my comments on Australian authors. She mentioned White & Stead so I responded about them.

Rest easy folks - the large font was just that for me - large - but easy to read.

William Starkie translation has a short biography of Cervantes. It seems that early in life he was sentenced to have his right hand cut off for allegedly'fiddling the books' but escaped that punishment and was imprisoned instead but then lost the use of his left hand in battle - I'd say that was 'stranger than fiction' wouldn't you?

Ooops! Sorry folks I got my wires crossed on that last post. Cervantes was sentenced to having his right hand cut off and ten years imprisonment for fighting a duel within the precincts of the royal palace (forbidden to do so) - he then fled from Madrid, joined the army in Rome and so to Lepanto and the injury to his left hand.(the imprisonment for alleged malfeasance comes later). It's a much more romantic story (the duel part)and in keeping with knights errant and their deeds of derring do. Still I do find the threatened loss of one hand and then the actual damage to the other really weird.

Hats - Like you, I always identify more readily with the tragic elements than with the comic. They touch us deeper somehow. But having said that there's really nothing to beat a good deep belly laugh!

Gumtree,

Yep, laughing is good medicine. "A good belly laugh" softens up the hurting spaces in our lives.

Thanks, Traude. It does explain this all in the introduction to the edition I have. I find the book quite enjoyable without the politics. It's rather different from what I'm used to, but the style not the time. It does make me want to learn more about the times, like My Name Is Red, and also makes me realize how big the history of the world is.

Thanks, gumtree, I found the post, and it's readable now that it's not on the huge font page. It depends upon your browser, it seems, whether or not the font was readable. For some of us, it was not. Still, issue resolved.

Kleo

TRAUDE: I assume you mean that the Madelaines were bland, not Proust's volumes?

Yes, I was very excited when the café near my work started to carry Madelaines. They were good, but not THAT exciting. But of course Proust's point is that certain foods bring back strong memories of childhood. Since I'd never had them before, Madelaines couldn't do that for me. For me, I guess it's home made lemonade (not the awful commercial stuff).

My Don came today. I like it already, having read only one paragraph!! And the pages are rough-cut. I love that. Am I the only one who likes to run my thumb over the edge of the pages while I read? And that cut has a very nice feel.

I'm torn whether to read the critical introduction. Usually I find it works better to read it after I read the book. But since you-all are probably going to read it, I don't want to be the only one who doesn't realize that X is really a symbol for Y, even though Dr. Pettyfog insists that it's a symbol for Z.

I've been delinquent for a few days and have just caught up. What's with Pearson? What in the world is a hookah pipe? Is Pearson smoking that "funny stuff?"
Now THAT would be funny!

I went to our little library here in the neighborhood to check out Cervantes and the only thing they have is Volume I of the Harvard Classics. I feel like I am handling a "masterpiece." It has a copyright date of 1909, manufactured in the U.S. and designed, printed and bound at the Collier Press, in NY. It is an old, treasured volume, translated by Thomas Shelton with introductions and notes. It even has a picture of Don Quixote being commanded to kneel - p. 37. It is yellow with age but then so am I- so what the hey?
Do all of the volumes have sonnets in them? There are sonnets written by knights-errant, ladies, squires and horses, in praise of Don Quixote, his dame, his squire and steed. (I quote.)

Joan K and Andy--holA!

Andy--those sonnets were written by Cervantes and yes, they should be in all editions.

You have an early translation there. If it doesn't appeal, check out either Grossman or Raffel, the former pub. in 2002 and the latter in, I think, 1995.

JoanK--I like those ruffled page edges myself.

Maryal

I went to the library to look for the Don, too. Probably not such a good idea because we're going to spend so much time on it. Their only volume was an old one - huge - with tiny tiny print. I passed on that. I can't believe I don't own it. We have so many classics that either we bought on our own or inherited from relatives. But no Don. I'm going to buy it. I better get a move on.

Thanks for your concern, Pat - I made it safely out of the computer "cafe." I guess I should have found another and let you that. As I was leaving, I noticed that all the "users" in that dimly lit place were young males. They sat quietly, never stirred (except for the two who came over to use computer #1 and #5 (I was using #3 - out of about a dozen computers - not being used by anyone) - but they didn't say or do anything. I don't think they knew what to make of me. I felt like a parent, or grandparent, who had come to check on what they were doing down there.

What's in a hookah pipe anyway? There were four or five groups of guys, sitting quietly around smoking the pipes...several were nodding. Is it hashish? Can there be non-narcotic hookah pipes?

Bruce couldn't get over how quickly I came out of there. I restrained myself from explaining what it was like down there.

The highlights of the trip? - well, there were a number of them. Mozart's Requiem by candelight at St. Martin of the Field, the day trip to Bath - (Bahth - poor unhappy Jane Austin!)), the Classical Extravaganza (needs to be explained to be appreciated, but will spare you the details) and a superb production of "A Man for All Seasons," starring Martin Shaw. He played Adam Dalgleish in recent BBC productions of PD JAMES' "Death and Holy Orders" and another the title of which escapes me. We've rented the movie to watch tonight as the play was so good.

What was interesting about the play, the "man" was Sir Thomas More...of the 16th century. There were a number of references to SPAIN and the Inquisition. I think it will be important for us to know that Cervantes lived and wrote in Spain during this unsettling time for authors - Though I read somewhere that he remained steadfastly Catholic - and cautious in his writing.

Those ragged edges sound delightful - you won't find that in Raffel. "Ragged" doesn't sound quite right - what's the word I'm looking for?

A question for anyone who had the Grossman (red cover) translation in hand - do you see the name of the artist who designed the knight on the red cover you see in the heading here?

A hookah is a bong, or water-pipe, generally used to smoke sweetened, and now popularly fruit-flavored (this latter learned on Wikipedia, good grief), tobacco. I assure you they were not smoking narcotics in a café. In the 70s when an Egyptian friend purchased a bong at a head shop he was startled to find it was used to smoke marijuana. I don't know enough about hashish to say whether it is smoked in water pipes or not, but I thought not.

Anyway, hookahs are for smoking sweetened tobacco, not narcotics. They're popular in Africa and parts of the Middle East and Asia. Now they've moved West.

Kleo

Oh for heaven sakes! Thanks, Kleo! I could have stayed down there and cleaned out my email inbox! It did smell funny - sweet.

I woted for the Don, so it would be a shame not to participate, at least a little. The beginning was troublesome, because I couldn't locate my copy in my extensive and messy home library, but this morning I found it.

The translation is by Tobias Smollett, believe me or not, and first published in 1755, if I am not mistaken. It has an excellent introduction by Carlos Fuentes, whom I love much. Next, it has the life of Cervantes by the same T. Smollett, and ended by a reading group guide.

I have too much material to confuse me: a whole book on the novel by Nabokov, an essay by Thomas Mann (I see Traude smiling). I also seen mentioned Salvador de Madariaga's "Don Quixote: An Introduction to Psychology", something I really would like to read, and also something by Giovanni Papini, but he is not my cup of tea.

I have no idea how I am going to deal with that material. So many books, so little time... and also not enough patience.

Hegeso—wow! a translation by Smollett! That’s only 1/3 of the way from writing to our reading. It could be much more understanding of the mindset of the time, or less intelligible to us because it’s so remote. I hope you’ll share with us.

I got my copy—I picked Raffel. I also got it in Spanish. I am not so foolish as to think I would read 800 pages in Spanish, but I thought that by reading selected passages in the original, I would be able to get the flavor of it, and my first look suggests that the Spanish is not too difficult to make this possible. No one is allowed to laugh at me if I fail. JoanK and I compared Grossman and Raffel, and I thought Grossman was better , but it was a small sample, and Deems said that she sometimes preferred one, sometimes the other.

Oh Hegeso...so many books, don't get overwhelmed with the riches at your fingertips. I'm afraid you will burn out. Please don't overdo. We'll be reading DQ very slowly, so that you will be free to pick it up and read for short periods in between other activities and book projects.

Thrilled that you have the Smollett translation - the more we have the merrier I think! And Pat with the original Spanish in front of you, this will be a rich discussion, I'm sure!

Bluebird, so happy you will be joining us - will saddle up an old steed for you. During the week of April 15 to April 22, we'll be discussing Cervantes' Prologue to the book (which I am told he wrote following the publication of Volume I in response to questions and comment from his readers) and the first SIX chapters. (Chapters are very short, several pages each.) If you start know, why don't you jot down notes of favorite parts or questions that you want to save for the discussion?

Joan P Lucky girl to see 'Man for all Seasons' - I seem to remember a film of it with Christopher Plummer - anyway the play is one of my favourites - plenty to think about in that. Robert Bolt is better known for his screenplays - he worked with David Lean on several films - Lawrence of Arabia and Dr. Zhivago - there were others too.

We watched Martin Shaw's recent series 'Judge John Deed' - he was excellent and has certainly matured as an actor since the Bodie? and Doyle series in the 70s

Next week we go to see a local production of'To Kill a Mockingbird' so I'll just have to be content with that for the moment.

I think The Don discussion will be an exciting experience !

I am rereading Abraham by Bruce Feiler. Ella and Harold were the discussion leaders of this book. I am also rereading the posts in the archives here at Seniornet.

Lo and behold, in one of the chapters I see the name Don Quixote. I would like to share the quote.

"In stories of heroic youth, the hero sets out to perform feats of bravery to win the hand of his beloved. The hero of a midlife quest has a different challenge. His is a darker, more inward-looking adventure that borders on madness as it reaches for the sublime. Think of Don Quixtoe, Oedipus." (Abraham by Bruce Feiler)

And JoanP and Deems have the word "mad" in the heading too.

Thanks for sharing that, Hats. We know that Cervantes was nearing fifty when he wrote Volume I. I'm fairly certain that his Don is the same age. So, yes, both author and hero are on a midlife quest - more determined but perhaps less hopeful than a younger hero would be.

Hegeso--If you give up on Smollet, don't give up on the Don! Surely your local library could help you with a more recent translation.

Smollet was an 18th century writer, a novelist himself, author of Peregrin Pickle and Roderick Random (neither of which I've read although I have sampled a little). I don't like the 18th century, generally speaking. Exceptions: Samuel Johnson and his biographer, Boswell, and a couple of others whose names escape me at the moment.

Hats--Loved the quote about Oedipus and Don Q. We're all going to see his name popping up all over the place. I keep running into "quixotic" myself. It blinks in multi-colors whenever I read it these days.

Maryal

JOANP: how lucky to hear Mozart's requiem done by St. Martin of the Field. I just watched "Amadeus" (for about the fifth time -- but I'm always amazed at how good it is) where St. Martin of the Field plays a small part of the Requiem (after a fictional scene where Mozart is shown composing it), and they are magnificent, much better than my old recording. I'll have to see if they have it on CD.

In the fictional story in the film, composing it is what kills him. It was part of that incredible burst of creativity that he had just before he died.

Everyone's playing Mozart this year, but I can't have too much of him.

Naturally I couldn't find Don Quixote in English at my library, but they had Don Quichotte in French and I started reading it yesterday. What a delightful book this is. I'll see you after Easter on the 19th after my company leaves. Looking forward to a delightful discussion with delightful people.

Eloise, delighted that you will be joining us - and reading in French! I am so looking forward to this superb group assembling here. Bien venue!

JoanK, imagine the Requiem in the old St. Martin-in-the-Bields church, in darkness except for the candelight - and the chandeliers in the front for the musicians. It was so very heaven. We had dinner before that in the crypt below - probably the best bargain in London and delicious too.

Right now I'm searching for a good searchable on-line translation of Don Quixote - it really helps to have that at one's fingertips when discussing a long book - as some of us learned from Middlemarch.

No luck yet with the searchable online DQ - in English. But am coming across so many interesting tidbits.

Falkner read Don Quixote once a year?

Did you know that every time you say, “Every dog has his day” or “Mum’s the word,” you are quoting Don Quixote? It was Cervantes in Don Quixote in the 17th century who first observed that “birds of a feather flock together,” that a “closed mouth catches no flies” and that “honesty’s the best policy.”

If you find a good searchable translation- please let us know here. I have found several translations, but they are not searchable. I found this one, but find the ads annoying. Will do in a pinch though. When you want to find something fast in a huge book, you really NEED the searchable feature. DON QUIXOTE ~ ELECTRONIC TEXT ~ SEARCHABLE
Need to get off now and get ready for two little grandsons to spend the afternoon...human windmills!

Deems, I am not going to give up the Don, no way Jose! And I won't give up the Smollett translation. I love it very much. It is true that the language is old (I won't say obsolete unless I would say Shakespeare's language is obsolete), but the language of Cervantes is also old. It is also true that it is twisted, but so is the Don's mind. The translation perfectly fits the atmosphere of the book, and I am happy to have it.

Joan K, I also love "Amadeus", and as to Mozart, I simply adore him. There was a lot of truth in the movie, for instance M.'s dirty language. He suffered from Tourette's syndrome. The final scene is, of course, imaginary. We don't know what Mozart's disease was, it is even possible that he was continually given small doses of poison, but it is sure that Salieri was not the culprit. One of Mozart's last amorous adventures, if not the very last, was with a woman with the name Magdalene (I forgot the last name), whose jealous husband might have a hand in it, with some assistance in the Mozart household, of course. After M.'s death, he also tried to kill Magdalene, stabbed her, and cut her face.

The Requiem is a great mystery for me; his student, Suessmayer, finished it, and when he got out of material, he used parts already written by Mozart, without changing them. But what about one of the most beautiful parts, the Lachrymosa, which M. had to give up after just a couple of measures?

hegeso: I'm so glad to hear you say that about your version of the book, the Smollett translation. I just bought the same one. I'm looking forward to beginning!

I am happy with my French translation too Hegeso, it feels more true to the original language of the 17th century than the the one in the link Joan P gave us above. I wonder how I would fare with the Smollett translation if it's anything like Shakespeare which I find difficult to grasp.

Oh my goodness, you would not be happy at all with the Raffel translation either, Eloise. We'll talk more about that when we get started, but Raffel seems to have taken much liberty with the translation in an attempt to modernize it.

I still haven't found a really good searchable text, but I think if you were to use the one posted yesterday, you might have luck finding something you are searching for in your own text. Will keep searching for another.

Hegeso, I didn't know the Magdalene story! Mozart's wife had encouraged him to take on the Requiem commission. He had not done a Requiem before this. He had told his wife on several occasions that he felt he was writing it for his own impending Requiem mass. It is my understanding that he had completed the Lachrymosa before his death, but others sense a change after the opening measures. I'm not that sophisticated to pick up any difference.

I'm not sure whether the deathbed scene described later is true - that he was singing the Lachrymosa with family members and friends and broke into tears unable to go on after the first few measures. It is a very beautiful, isn't it? - uplifting, not sorrowful or oppressive as you might expect.

About the translation of DON QUIXOTE

My version by Aline Shulman was done in 1997, but it is not what I would call a modern version in the same sense of the word as the Raffel one, but it is done with extreme finesse and it does not feel like a translation, it feels like an original text.

I wanted to know exactly how Hidalgo was translated and apparently it is a word that does not translate easily without losing some of its meaning. It is proper to Spanish.

Eloise, I found this site that proports to translate Spanish to English. Plan to include it in the new heading for the discussion. Give it a test drive clicking the "H" and you don't get much more than you have found. "Lesser nobility" seem to be the key words.
Don Quixote Dictionary..Spanish-English//
The book is divided into two volumes - in some translations the volumes have titles. Mine (Raffel) just says "Volume One". I read that when the novel was first published in 1605, Cervantes had given it the title - "El ingenioso hidalgo Don Quixote de la Mancha"...Is this where you see the title, "Hildago"? I took it as a humorous way of poking fun at Don, who was under the illusion that he was of the nobility. I did find this - thought you might be interested:

The prototypical hidalgo is Don Quixote, who is sometimes known as "The Hidalgo":
"An hidalgo or fidalgo was a member of the lower Spanish nobility. Hidalgos were exempt from paying taxes, but did not necessarily own real property.

Since the 7th century, the words fijodalgo and fidalgo were used in Spain, especially Castile, to refer to low-ranking landed gentry. Both were corruptions of the term "fijo de algo" (son of something). In the middle ages pronunciation changed to hijodalgo and hidalgo.

To qualify as an hidalgo solariego ("ancestral hidalgo"), one had to prove that all four of one's grandparents were hidalgos. One could also receive the title as a reward for meritorious acts, or by joining a fraternity. Of all those who held the title, hidalgos solariegos were regarded as the most noble, and treated with the most respect."

Marnie, I hope we will compare notes about the Smollett translation. Just to mention it, I don't like modernization of anything.

Eloise, the Smollett translation wouldn't give you any difficulties. The language is not Shakespearean.

Joan P., I don't think that Konstanze had to encourage Mozart to take on the commission of the Requiem. Yes, he felt that he was writing the Requiem for himself, and I read his letter about it, I don't remember to whom. I am too lazy to find it in my library, so I will tell you in my own words: "I see in my mind the stranger clad in black, urging me to finish the Requiem. I know that I have to write it for myself, and I am sad, because life was so sad, and in spite of it so beautiful."

He never found out that the mysterious stranger was not a messenger from beyond, but a certain count Walsegg, an amateur composer, who didn't disclose his identity because he wanted to have the piece performed as his own.

I know it is too early to discuss the Don, but I cannot restrain myself. Was he mad? This is a question we will discuss later, but I would like to add that IMHO it was not the books that deprived him of his normal mind. To read them was his choice, and he certainly had some deep-lying reason to select exactly those; our choices are not accidental. I can't avoid an association with Mme Bovary, who started to read and sing romances already in the cloister, and this choice was also her own. MMe. B. and the Don shaped their lives to imitate the pattern, the MMe. with more tragic consequences. I am asking myself whether there are any other similar characters in literature; in real life I have met quite a few who attempted to alter their lives to suit their wishes and illusions.

No, No!!! Don't start yet! I'm just beginning the book! I don't want to be left out! hahaha

I don’t care for the Raffel translation-reads more like a pop novel than a classic of literature. Is there a translation that is more literary and could use the Raffel for notes and intro?

Boookworm, so happy you found your way here. WELCOME! I'll agree with you (somewhat) on the Raffel translation, but it surely is a great reference. The more translations we have going at the same time, the better. This should be a whole lot of fun.

It seems that a goodly number of our merry band has settled on Edith Grossman's New Translation, though we have heard from another group happy with Smollet. There is a 2004 reprint of Smollett's translation available at Barnes and Noble.

Hegeso, I'm going to agree with Marni on this one - let's hold off on discussion of the book itself until we have all assembled - on the 15th. However, talk about Cervantes (and Mozart

) is just fine.

On the 15th we will begin discussion of the Prologue and the first six chapters. We recommend not going any further than that alone. You never know who you will meet along the road, especially at night. Safety in numbers!

Well, I just met Cervantes last night! I started the Smollett version which begins with an Intro, a very brief bio of Cervantes, and a timeline of events. I was nearly knocked off my chair when I read about Cervantes.

Someone had mentioned in an earlier posting that Cervantes had fought in the Battle of Lepanto in 1571 and had been wounded and lost the use of [left] hand permanently. Well, he fought on after recovering somewhat. Then he headed home. He was captured by Barbary pirates and enslaved for five years in Algeria!! He couldn't afford the ransom they demanded. They kept him a slave for five whole years before, somehow, he came up with some money, and was freed.

I can hardly imagine what a terrible ordeal that must have been for him. This man really had some incredible ordeals in his life. I read in one book about slaves of Barbary Coast countries that some spent their lives underground digging tunnels for water to flow to the gardens of the rich. Whatever they did, it cannot have been pleasant.

Another thing about Cervantes - his father was thrown into prison for debt when Cervantes was a boy. The family's possessions were confiscated. Cervantes himself, after he had been freed by Algeria, had married and was shortly thereafter thrown into prison for three months for fraud which he had not committed.

It's a wonder to me that he could write a comedy.

I'm one of the ones with Grossman's translation. I like modern translations myself especially since it seems that when Cervantes wrote the book he used a very lively Spanish. Of course, it would now seem dated to us, but at the time his language was sharp and witty.

Which leaves me wondering if I were a native speaker of French and read Shakespeare translated into French if I would appreciate him. Of course, I would be French and eager to read Shakespeare although (for some reason or other I had learned very little English) I didn't want to attempt him in English (having been scared away by previous attempts).

I think I would want a lively translation.

JoanP --how about you? Do you know anything about translations of Shakespeare? Same time period as Cervantes, that's why I'm using him as an example.

So far so good with the Smollett translation. It's pretty lively and amusing. The language is not bothering me at all. The only thing is that there are a jillion footnotes to explain words selected or to explain about the person or place mentioned. The footnotes are almost overdone. Some of the them I have decided to simply skip. I'll probably skip more and more as I get used to the flow.

Marni, the footnotes should come in handy once we get started and the questions come up in discussion. I've noted that you have them. Raffel gives very, very few.

Maryal, an interesting question! I've never tried reading S. from any other other language. I will guess that the idioms, the play on words - would have to be heavily footnoted as Marni is finding with the Smollett. Let's ask Eloise who that works for her when she reads Shakespeare in French. Of course, she is also fluent in English , so this might not be a fair question to put to her.

Perhaps you will find this site interesting:
Chronology of translations of Shakespeare's works into other languages

Look at the last entry - Complete works were translated into French as late as 1995!

Thanks, Joan. What an interesting list. I'm going to have to look it over again when I have more time.

My eyes did fall on a seventeenth century production of King Lear, described as a comedy. Goodness, that is one funny play!

I am totally ignorant of Shakespeare unfortunately in either language. I can't find an French excerpt of a play in Google.

In DQ the 4 English translations of a few sentences from the beginning described something as simple as food all differently, so I am sure translators have taken liberties while trying to keep true to the spirit of the story. The literature literally sings in my French version, Aline Schulman translated some poetry with rhymes, I don't know how she did it. I wish I had the Smollet translation to compare it with mine.

Just dropping in, as I'm unsure of having time to participate this spring.

Have you posted this link, previously? It has biographical material, as well as other links.
This link, which has a lot of material, was at the bottom of the "translation" link given above,
and is called the Cervantes Project:

Cervantes

The second item to mention is I was friends with the ex-wife of Burton Raffel during the 70's, when her office was next to my husband's at the Wharton School, at U. of PA.
Since it's her "ex" she had nothing good to say about him or his work, and it was surprising to see his name pop up as a not-favored translator, as posted (#89 & 90).

It's a small world isn't it? You knew Raffel's wife!!! Please don't misunderstand...some of us are quite happy with the Raffel translation. Some of us are uncomfortable with his "lively" modern translation. Thanks for posting the link, Mippy. It's probably me, but I cannot find the searchable translation IN ENGLISH as the home page indicates it has. I see a searchable Spanish translation however.

Mippy, we're counting on you to "drop in" whenever you can. You add much when you do come in. We're going to be moving as slow as molasses so as to allow other projects as we go though these 900 pages.

Off to Charleston in the morning - Bruce has a softball tournament. Sometimes they go to great places. I'm told the hotel has a business room with computers that I might use. We'll see. Otherwise, I need to start researching a new lap top - with wireless a feature.

Be good! Be patient. The 15th will be here before you know it!

I got acquainted with Shakespeare in translation, and would you believe me, in Hungarian. The greatest Hungarian poets of the 195h century translated his plays, and when later I was lucky to read the originals, I was surprised by the excellence, the poetry, and the exactness of the translations. The most surprising thing was that the one who translated Hamlet, Lear, Midsummer Night's Dream, etc. etc., was in jail after the 1848 revolution, and taught himself English in his prison cell. Absolutely unbelievable! New translations came out in the 20th century, but I didn't read them. I adored Shakespeare even when I still couldn't read English.

hegeso--It is astonishing what being in prison will do for concentrating the mind, is it not? I'd like to think that if I'm ever incarcerated, I'd do something productive with the time. But I'll bet I wouldn't. Glad that you enjoyed Shakespeare in translation before you became fluent in English.

Mippy--Interesting story about your friendship with the ex-wife of Raffel! I guess ex-wives are not likely to have the best things to say about the subsequent work of their former partners. And who knows, he may not be a very nice man.

However, my daughter taught me to separate the creator from the work. She is a painter with an MFA and one day I was going on and on about how much I liked Monet's work. Yes, she said, but he was an awful man. Said she liked his work too even though she knew so much about him. And then there are all those paintings of weeping women by Picasso. Guess who made them cry? And then painted them.

So--the work is one thing, in this case the translation, and the person quite another.

Eloise--Good to hear that your French translation of Don Quixote sings. I've read that the original Spanish sang too, and when I was looking at translations, that's what I was looking for, one that moved right along with a certain lightness of touch.

Translation always involves choices and changes to the original, no matter how good the translator. This is especially true in the case of poetry.

I hope Bruce's softball team won. Last year, I think they were in Florida. This year it's Charleston. These are good venues indeed, and I hope Joan P is taking a tour around Charleston in one of those lovely horse and buggy things. It's a lovely old city and the right time of year to be there.

~Maryal

Another example of creativity in prison is Olivier Messiaen's "Quartet for the End of Time", written in a German prison camp in 1940, and first performed there in Jan., 1941. The choice of instruments (violin, cello, clarinet, and piano) was dictated by who his fellow prisoners were (he was piano). Messiaen is a specialized taste, but if you like him, this is among his best. Not really relevant to Don Q, but we're sort of just chatting until the 15th.

Here is Picasso's take on the Don: http://www.art.com/asp/sp-asp/_/pd--10016007/Don_Quixote.htm#

Pat and I found something interesting today. We were comparing Don Quixote's. I bought the Grossman translation: Pat Raffel and the Spanish.

In both the Spanish edition and my Grossman, there are pages of poetry between the Prologue and Chapter !. These are completely missing from Raffel. What do we want to do about this?

I make a case for skipping them. If Raffel found them expendable, I'm ready to agree.I had read the poetry before we discovered this and found it very heavy going, much more so than Chapter 1, without much reward. They are pretend poems by the authors that Cervantes is satirizing praising DQ as a knight. Most are written in a conceit of the day where the last syllable of each line is missing, and the reader has to guess what is meant -- a process I found tedious.

I mention this now since some of us are starting to read already. I hope no one is getting bogged down in these poems.

The poems are not included in the Smollett version.

Something that IS included in my paperback copy are truly wonderful illustrations - many are engravings - by Gustave Dore. There are so many of them - every few pages. Do you all have these?

Here's an example of a Gustave Dore illustration in Don Quixote:

http://www.lemur.com/dore-quixote.html

This is my version of DON QUICHOTTE DE LA MANCHE translated by Aline Schulman and I wonder who's drawing it is on the cover. I thought it was from Picasso, but seeing link 102, I guess not.

marni-

Wow! those illustrations are fabulous. I don't have any in my edition. I am going to look for this edition though and thumb through to see all the sketches.

I've just read the poems and the first five chapters. My book has the poems, obviously. if some people don't have them, seems it might make sense to skip them- they're not crucial, imho. I am finding the book much more readable than I expected.

Marni, wouldn't that Dore illustration be a wonderful introduction and writing prompt for students? Years ago they used to read D. Q. in our eighth grade gifted program. I never experienced teaching it and haven't heard any postiive reports about how it was received, but I would love to see what kids would write as an interpretation of that picture!

I set that picture of DQ in his library as my new background. I love to look at all the details in prints such as this. Thanks for sharing it.

Also, this site has many of the chapters in English, along wwwith those original illustrations.

http://www.spanisharts.com/books/quijote/thequijote1.htm

Greetings from sunny and warm Charleston! Maryal, don't know if I'll get to the horse and carriage this trip. Will surely try. Yesterday took the boat out to Fort Sumpter. Was greatly humbled by my lack of knowledge of the history of the place. Bruce, the history buff was appalled. It was quite moving. Not that he was appalled, but the siege and how the South held on to the fort throughout the war under cannonball fire, no provisions...

Then we had a scrumptious seafood dinner in the Isle of Palms - the One Eyed Parrot it was called. Highly recommended.

The "boys" were up and out to practice for an 8:30 am game! I'm here in the hotel in the business room with access to the computer. (I'll go to the 11:30 game.) A chance to catch up on your messages - so that I won't be overwhelmed when I get home - before the discussion even begins!!!

Hegeso - you leave me speechless! We all look forward to having you in the discussion!

Pat, no! Poems that threaten to bog us down!!! Oh let's just vow right here and now to SKIP over anything that bogs us down. We can't afford to lose a single one of you and if you feel "bogged" at any time, skip it, but report here as Pat has done - is that agreed? 900 pages later, I'm hoping our band comes out intact! Mippy, that includes you!

ps. I will do some research on those poems when I get home, hoping to find why they are included in some editions and not others.

Pat Westerdale has helped me put together a revolving cube of artwork on the Quixote theme - many taken from bookcovers of some of the editions we are reading. When you see them, see if you can identify the one Eloise speaks of...will be right back!

Here's the revolving cube that we plan to display in the new discussion header for next week. Can't say that I'm crazy about the colored version of Dore's etchings. It was taken from the cover of one of the translations. Hopefully we can get it "decolered" before next week. Dore did etchings and never colored them. Also plan to insert a different Dore etching each week. He did a whole series of these for many of the chapters of this book!

I have the poems and vote for skipping them with the proviso that we all understand that Cervantes wrote them all himself and did so in order to poke fun at all those other authors who had real people write pithy epigrams and poems to put in the front of the book. Sort of like advertising with praise from others.

Come to think of it, our publishers do the same sort of thing today with quotes and squibs from other famous authors and reviewers suggesting to the reader what a superb book they are about to buy (the publisher hopes).

When we get there, I'll type in Grossman's translation of the poem ostensibly written by Roscinante, Don Q's horse. It will give everyone an idea of the range of these poems.

Joan P--I suggest you encourage Bruce to remain on that team since it takes you on fun little trips to cool places. I'm currently teaching The Killer Angels (novel about Gettysburg) and would love to have been with you on the boat to see Fort Sumpter.

Maryal

More pictures: http://cfac.byu.edu/moa/Exhibits/don_quixote.php

Sorry. Only the second picture is new here.

It's good to see you here, HEGESO, dear musician friend. (Yes, I did smile at your recent mention of Thomas Mann here.) Your knowledgeable contributions are needed and much appreciated.

For now I'm working with two very different translations, library copies both. One is by P.A. Motteux (1904), the other by Samuel Putnam (first published in 1949 by Viking).
The former has lots of now obsolete capitalization of nouns, which gives this translation the flavor of the era but can be a bit irritating, I found. There are footnotes but they are not excessive in either number or length. Putnam has no footnotes.

I have not decided which translation I'll order but, sight unseen, I'm leaning toward Grossman. Meanwhile I am going to hang on to the library copies and see what transpires, regarding the relative merits of the different translations and particpants' personal preferences, once the discussion begins.

I read Shakespeare at school in German. When I later read some of the works in the original English, I realized that the translations had been well executed (for example, the famous, immortal line in Hamlet, "To be or not to be, that is the question" = "Sein oder Nichtsein, das ist die Frage".)

Well, what an afternoon I've had - browsing through our University Library collection of Don material - I saw several versions dating from 1891 including the 1909 Shelton translation which Alf mentioned a week or so ago which is in good condition and reads well.

Two editions really grabbed me - one was based on the Peter Motteux edition Part One only, 1946 Abbeville Press NY illustrated by Salvadore Dali. There are a dozen or so full colour plates depicting various episodes and though the colours are somewhat subdued and sombre the paintings really are brilliant. The book also contains a number of pen and ink sketches. It held me for ages so it was great to come here tonight and find all these links to images from other artists as well. Thanks everyone.

The other edition was very plain by comparison but in other respects just as interesting. Again it was a Motteux "translated by several hands and published by Mr Motteux" and goes on "from Spanish ed. by Mr. Ozell (with) explanatory notes from Jervas, Oudin, Sobrino Pineda, Gregario, and the Royal Academy Dictionary of Madrid"

It came in 4 vols Calf bound, brown with cream spine, gold lettering published in Glasgow printed by Robert and Andrew Foulis in MDCCLXXI (1771).

Needless to say this version was housed in the Scholars Rare Book Collection but they got it out for me. The pages are very yellowed and stained and brittle to the touch. From the flyleaf inscriptions this copy had had three owners before being donated to the Library. What I take to be the second inscription is dated Jan'ry 12th 1818 and signed 'from his grandmother'

These vols were interesting from an Australian history point of view because they were published the year after Captain Cook discovered Australia in 1770 - or 17 years before the First Fleet arrived at Botany Bay 1788 - or 55 years before the western third of the continent was claimed by the British. This edition had been passed on from generation to generation and was treasured enough to have been given precious space in a sea chest for the long voyage to Australia by sailing ship. Then sometime after 1913 when the University here was founded it was given to the library. And they let me handle it with my bare hands!

Mr. Motteux - was Pierre Antoine Motteux 1663-1718 Huguenot refugee, editor and translator, playwright etc. He was murdered at 'a house of ill fame' in London, 'under circumstances which have never come to light. The manner of his death was no criterion of his life which appears to have been sober and decent' (Answers.com)

Well, not as though I didn't already have enough books on my shelf, but I ordered a copy of Gustave Dore''s prints to accompany DQ.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/BookSearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&isbn=0486243001&itm=10

It will be a fabulous visual accompaniment, I think. I looked at the B&N edition which has the Dore' prints but the quality of them is poor. I hope the book I ordered doesn't have them that poor or I am going to be peeved.

Hola!
Count me in! Reading this pre-discussion did it, and I ordered the Grossman edition! See you in Espania!

Welcome to you, Mippy. Glad we talked you into it. I also like Grossman--good translation.

And Scootz ordering the Dore prints.

I have a biography of Cervantes at school. MUST remember to pick it up. I was there all day but busy at a conference--whew, what a day.

Isn't it interesting how many people have been involved in translating Cervantes.

Reminds me of Dante. Many many have tried their hands at Dante, in prose as well as poetry.

Maryal

Here is a page with Hogarth's illustrations to the Don.

http://quixote.mse.jhu.edu/Hogarth.html

Here is one of Dali's Dons.

http://www.picassomio.com/art/6205/en

P.S. You can enlarge those pictures by clicking on them.

http://www.artbrokerage.com/art/dali/dali_1152.htm

One more Dali Don Quixote

Thanks to all for giving us the artwork. It's fascinating to see how each artist has responded to the Don with totally different impressions.

Hegeso: Thanks for putting up some of the Dali Dons - Didn't manage to get round to that myself. I don't think the last one you posted appears in the edition I viewed at the library unless I just overlooked it. The ink drawings are superb - the Don is usually very thin and elongated but Dali gets the figure perfectly proportioned - he surely knew his anatomy

Thanks for the links to the wonderful illustrations.

I think when Joan comes back, you will see that she will choose some excellent illustrations to accompany our discussion.

I'm still convention-lagged. All day yesterday and then I stayed for the business meeting--and almost volunteered to serve on a committee. I need to be restricted. I shouldn't be allowed to go to conferences. Always get way overtired. Just can't stop.

Maryal

The best thing about the Dali Dons, to me, is that when you first see one, you instantly know the artist and the subject, even completely out of context if you have not read Cervantes. This happened to me with one of them and it was quite a thrill--although since it appears I've read Don Quixote before, maybe I saw it after reading the book....

When my son was young, maybe 9 or so, we were at a friend's discussing artists, when she mentioned one of Salvador Dali's famous paintings by title only. I said to my son, "Oh that's by the artist you like, the one who does the runny clocks," to which my son replied, "Oh, you mean Salvador Dali?" He didn't quite roll his eyes.

My son is fun at art museums. I went to see Chagall at SFMOMA with him and got one of their audio tours for my listening. At about the second or third stop I was more interested in the painting beside the one on the tour, so my son discussed it and Chagall in relation to other artists of the era. He knew more and in-depth, without training or art education, than the audio tour. He developed quite a following on his "tour."

I think his favorite painters are the Catalan and the Spaniard.

Kleo

Here is one more. It doesn't say by whom, but I think it is by George Cruikshank. http://store3.yimg.com/I/ganivet_1677_195541

hegeso--I'm guessing Cruikshank along with you. He was one of Dickens' primary illustrators.

Now that it is much cheaper for publishers to use illustrations, I say we bring them back. It's always such a delight (for me) to run into a visual representation, even when I don't agree at all on it being what I think something should look like.

Maryal

I love that illustration that you think is by Cruikshank!

These illustrations are fabulous. I get all excited by book illustrations. My husband's sister, grandfather, and great-grandfather are/were book illustrators. It's interesting to listen to my sister-in-law talk about how she reads and interprets a book that she is going to illustrate. She has to visualize the story and she uses her personal experience to create the drawings.

I'm excited just reading this book. To think, the only book published in more languages was the Bible. That is just amazing to me. I can't believe I didn't read the Don before.

marnie--Isn't it amazing to realize that you haven't read Don Quixote? I've taught parts of it but never read all of it.

I think parts of Don Q have become so imbedded in our cultures that it is very hard not to have heard of him or to recognize the name Sancho Panza or to recall the incident with the windmills. He's sort of like Freud whom not all that many have read but many recognize his major ideas.

Maryal

Ooooops! My reading glasses just came apart. I hope to have new ones by the time we start on the Don, or just a couple of days later. I can read without them, but it makes my eyes very tired. I am suffering from withdrawal syndrome. Please, feel sorry for me.

hegeso--I'll feel sorry about the reading glasses because I have been nearsighted all my life. Last summer I had cataract surgery and with the implanted lens, I now have 20/20 in my left eye and 20/30 or 40 in the right eye (have forgotten).

I wear reading glasses but they are the kind available at every drug store and most book stores in this area. I have maybe fifteen pairs now because I'm always leaving a pair somewhere.

Funny thing is that most of them wind up in the same room of the house. I try to leave some upstairs in the bedroom and a pair in the living room and so forth, but I have a bad habit of wearing them as I move around (the little half glasses kind).

Anyway, I'm sorry.

Maryal

Hegeso: I totally feel sorry for you!! I've been wearing glasses since I was 2 years old. It's horrible when they break! Taping the pieces together just doesn't work very well, especially when you have a strong prescription like I have. One side will flop a bit, and the intense focusing gives me a headache. Thank goodness for LensCrafters where now I can get a new pair of glasses in an hour!

Poor baby! I can't imagine how I will cope when I "graduate" from drug store reading glasses to the real thing. Like Maryal, I have a dozen pair, in various locations all over the house, some with broken straps, but usable in a pinch. And yes, Maryal, isn't it amazing how they all gravitate to one place?

We had a long weekend - storms hit the Charleston area on Saturday, washing out the softball games - so they had to be played into Sunday. The "boys" did terribly - I hate to say it, but they are not in shape to play for four days running, 3 games a day. They were soooo stiff. And Bruce plays right field (lots of running) and then "courtesy runner" for his teammates when their team is at bat.

They came in in third place - (Bruce made the all tournament all star team - brought home a big medallion. I can't get him to take it off - hahaha, I'm only kidding.)

Thank you for sharing the artwork! It seems our Don has inspired artists for quite a long time. We will surely make use of it in the coming weeks.

Just a few days to go! Your restraint is admirable!

It's not so bad being totally nearsighted, as I am. You don't lose your glasses, because you never take them off. At night you have learned not to forget where you placed them, because you know you won't even be able to see them if they are more than 2 feet away.

Joan I am restraining myself especially since you put that windmill up and I was going to say something, but I will have to wait until after Easter when my company leaves now. I stopped reading DQ not to get too far ahead of the others.

I am fortunate that my cataract surgery was successful and I was only a month with drug store glasses for the computer, now though I don't need glasses except for the computer and reading. I felt sort of naked without them for a while though, but now I love it especially for driving.

I have three pair of reading glasses- I only need them if I'm wearing my contacs which correct near- sightedness. Ok, so finally, after being so frustrated because I never ever had a pair in the room when I needed them, I bought those clips,with a string to go around your neck. So- now I have three pair, one with a string, which is also always in the wrong room instead of around my neck. The road to hell and all that....

I've worn my reading glasses around my neck on a string for years. The only problem is that sometimes the clips tangle in my hair. And I'm here in sunny Southern California (It's supposed to rain for the next three days. Everyone is off running errands so I get a few minutes on the computer.

I have disciplined myself if I do take them off to only put them in one of three designated places, so finding them is easy. But I seldom need to take the string off. But if I leave them hanging while I eat I always the soup food on them.

Everyone remembers the windmill. I wonder why? There is something very picturesque about windmills. In Rembrandt's Eyes we found that Rembrandt's father was a windmill owner. When the town was attacked, some of the windmills were dismantled and reassembled on top of the city walls.

I wear reading glasses too. I always lose my glasses. I can't do a thing until my glasses are found.

I love the look of windmills. I just don't know why windmills are used. Do the windmills turn to dry up water on the ground? I am guessing.

I think part of the reason we remember the windmills is in the language. Have you ever read or heard of a person "tilting at windmills"?

Hats--I think Windmills provide power.

There's a whole string of modern windmills in either Virginia or Maryland (Maryland I think) that I see when returning from trips. They are along the crest of a hill and there must be twelve or so of them, maybe more.

Perhaps Joan P of Joan K or Pat H has seen the ones I'm talking about and can be more specific.

Anyway I know the ones I'm trying not very successfully to describe are for providing power.

Apparently windmills were going to be set along some part of Cape Cod, but the natives grew virulent and blocked, at least temporarily, their installation.

~Maryal, who is exhausted after my daughter's opening last Friday night and then an all-day conference on Saturday. Something happened Sunday as well; I no longer remember what.

Poor Maryal. Put your feet up and relax (what did your daughter open?)

Windmills convert the energy of the wind to make power. The new ones (I've seen on TV, not in real life) I suppose turn that energy into electricity. Rembrandt's father's windmill was indeed a mill. The wind turned the blades, which were attached to a machine that somehow turned and ground grain into flour. Farmers would bring him their grain, and pay him for this service.

In this country, we had similar mills, but instead of using the wind to turn a wheel. we used a stream. There would be a wheel partly submerged in the stream, the force of the stream's water would turn it which would turn something inside and grind the grain. I don't remember the details of how it works but there are (or were a few years ago) still some mills that work this way as tourist attractions.

I thought I might follow along with this Discussion, but I'm all confused about the titles of the books in my Library. They have "The First Part of the Life and Achievements of the Renowned Don Quixote De La Mancha", "The Ingenious Gentleman Don Quixote De La Mancha", "The Adventures of Don Quixote De La Mancha", and just plain "The Adventures of Don Quixote". I see some are listed as different years(1950 to 53) and different publishers--Dent and Harmonsworth. They'd have to be the same book wouldn't they? All have Cervantes as the author, after all, but is one copy better than the other?

I see there's also a video called "Nureyev's Don Quixote", that would be interesting.

Welcome,Jan, it's good to hear that you will be joining us. Since we are starting with Part I and it will be a while until we get to Part II, I'd say you could simply compare the translations and see which one you like the best.

People are using a number of translations, including Eloise who has one translated into French. I think that's right; if not, please correct me.

I'm using Grossman's recent (2003) translation; I think Joan P is using Raffel. I know that Scootz is using Smollet's 18th century translation. I also know there are others but the brain is worn out tonight.

Anyway, it's good to have you with us, no matter what translation you choose.

Maryal

I know that Scootz is using Smollet's 18th century translation.

OOPS! Nope, deems, I'm using the "red" one pictured above.

Grossman, is it? I may have confused you by saying I looked at the Smollett one at B&N- at least I think the B&N edition is by Smollett. It really is a bit confusing.

Windmills on Cape Cod ... aaarrrrgh ....
We spend our summers on the Cape, and I could tell you more about that argument than you want to hear ...
Talk about tilting ...
Even the Audubon Society of MA has waffled on this!
They were planned to be placed out in the water, visible from land.
It's an impossible quest, worthy of the Don!

We learn what the phrase "tilting at windmills" means from reading the book. It originates with Don Quixote and is explained in the text.

I drive by a few thousand windmills everyday, at the Altamont Wind Farm, whatever its proper name is.

Kleo

So these titles I listed all sound like the same book, just different translations? They're in storage at the Library so I'll have to ask them to fish one out for me.

I had a "minty" moment with the Don. One of my first Primary schools was a little one teacher place, with about a dozen pupils. The poor harassed man was trying to prepare a couple of them for the Scholarship exam(now defunct). If you were a quick reader you were handed books from several higher Grades and left to get on with it by yourself. One book had the Don's windmill story in it, and much later in my education I said the name aloud for the first time. It was gently pointed out to me that it was Kee-otey, not Kwixote.

"Its moments like these, you need Minties"

Windmills here in Queensland are for pumping water, and quite tall.I guess cattle and sheep stations in America have the same ones.

Jan, Don Quixote, Don Quichotte, Don Quijote. I guess translators thought the Spanish would be impossible to translate. Quichotte is pronounced 'keeshott' in French. I was wondering how the English pronounced the 'x' replacing the 'j', if they pronounce it like in Spanish 'kee ote. Kwixote? That is a tongue twister though.

Jan! A great big WELCOME!!
I'm certain we can rouse another old steed for you. So happy you can join us. We promise to move slowly - a nice leisurely pace so as not to overwhelm crowded schedules - or old steeds.
It sounds as if you have a choice in translations...the translator is key to those titles that you mention. As Maryal says, find one you find to your liking...also the size of the print and the weight of the pages have influenced the choice by some of our participants.

Interesting that you mention the Nureyev movie - another example of how the story of Quixote has captured the artistic imagination. Have you ever seen a production of "The Man of La Mancha"? Here's a link to Rudolph Nureyev and the Don Quixote ballet...and the film you mention- interesting to note that "his lavish film ballet ultimately required the facilities of a gigantic Australian airplane hangar to produce." Did you know that?
Nureyev - Don Quixote Again, welcome! We look forward to your company.

Eloise, I've been pronouncing it like the Spanish...'kee ote. How about the rest of you?

I've been pronouncing the "j" like a strong "h", which I think is right for Spanish, and putting the accent on the second syllable:

kee HO tay

Confession time- I don't know when it was exactly, but I wasn't a teenager when I finally connected "Don Quixote" with what I thought was "Donkey Hoady"! I am not kidding here.

Scootz---oops, sorry. Wasn't you, eh? Someone has the Smollet translation. I think. Suddenly I feel unsure of everything.

That's OK. The semester is almost over.

Maybe if gas reaches $4 or more a gallon this summer, people in the U.S. are going to have to rethink windmills. Even on Cape Cod. Beautiful place, I know. But the windmills I see out in the country are not at all ugly. It's certainly not like putting a nuclear plant in the neighborhood.

Off to (yet another) meeting, the last in a series of three which started on Monday. gasp.

Maryal

Donkey Hoady!!! Love it! Pat, I'm not sure now whether I hear "ho" or not. kee 0te kee hote. I don't think I hear the "h" when I say it.

I thought the windmills provided the motiion that pumped water...for irrigation, or something. Couldn't explain how that would work though. We have a lot to learn, don't we?

In Europe, windmills were primarily used to pump water, such as in Holland where dykes were built, but sea water would nevertheless seep into the fields, or polders. The Dutch figured out how to assemble lines of windmills to dry out the fields.

The second use, to grind grain, may still be seen today, in recreated sites, on Cape Cod and, I'm sure, elsewhere. On Cape Cod, our local historical society has a restored windmill where docents explain how corn was ground into corn meal.

An alternative use was in sea salt collection, where the vats of dried salt in saltworks had to be ground into fine particles, prior to packaging and shipping. Small windmills were used. There was a saltworks right on our street, long gone, but I've seen photographs which show how it worked.

A Wikipedia link on windmills is: here

Thanks for the windmill link, Mippy. I loved the pictures! I remember the windmills all over when I used to visit my grandparents in Ohio farm country.

This discussion of mills reminded me of my home town. Here are several pictures of "Ye Olde Town Mill" in New London, CT, where I grew up. This was one of the sites we used to visit on class trips in elementary school. It's a water-driven mill. It's still there today, situated now (unfortunately) under the New London/Groton Bridge.

http://www.rootsweb.com/~ctnewlon/OldeTownMill.htm

Thank you Marni and Mippy for the links. Marni, the mill is very picturesque in your hometown. Mippy, I could see the Spanish windmills of La Mancha.

Welcome back, JOAN P.
After only a day or two without checking here I found myself with twenty-eight (28) posts, but am now again totally "with it".

It was HEGESO who has, and is reading, the SMOLLETT translation. Here's hoping the new reading glasses will be available soonest, HEGESO. I also use reading glasses and have several on hand around the house for every eventuality.

We are in for a great reading adventure here, for discoveries large and small, and I am so happy the book was chosen at long last.

Thanks, Traude, for reminding me who had Smollet. I knew someone did but got it wrong when I said Scootz.

Anyhoo, any translation is welcome here.

Maryal

I've got the Smollet translation, too.

Ahh, yes, marni has Smollet too. Thanks, marni.

Oh why did I come in here and read all your posts. I hate Don Quixote. I know I should not say that here but I was required to read the book when I studied Spanish in college. I remember absolutely no Spanish and have no desire to remember any. I do remember the book though and I hated it then and I don't want to put myself through it again. However I find myself wondering why I hated it so much. Oh I am not going to get involved in this discussion cause I am not going to read that book ever again.

I know you folks are going to have alot of fun discussing this book. I already see from your enthusiasm that it is going to be a wonderful discussion. It is really wonderful to see such enthusiastic participants in a disucssion! I know it will be a great discussion!

I need to go back to bed for awhile. I have a UTI which is much better but is still making me quite weak and sick. I will be looking in on the discussion to see what fun you are all having.

Enjoy!

Joan Grimes

Joan, yes, back to bed...and then come in here on Saturday when you are feeling better - just for fun! The college Joan reading Don Q. as a requirement is a different gal from the more mature Joan today. Cervantes was 50 when he wrote this book - probably had a very different vantage point than when he was 20!

WOW - like Traude I go missing for a couple of days and then what a lot of posts to catch up 38!!

Thanks for the links - they're just great. Here windmills are for pumping ground water, usually on farming land to water stock. These days we also have the wind farms which are wind driven propellors for generating electricity- environmentally friendly insofar as not using fossil fuels but very ugly on the landscape.

As for Nureyev's Don - His co-director, Sir Robert Helpmann was an Aussie icon in the arts so I guess it would have been pretty easy for him to procure the use of an aircraft hangar (at a cost of course) The hangar was at Essendon which at one time was THE aerodrome serving Melbourne.

The film 'Man of la Mancha' was terrific. The Dali depiction of the Don reminds me of the look Peter O'Toole achieved in the part.

And Hello to Jan - great to meet another Aussie on SN -