---Don Quixote ~ Cervantes ~ Volume II ~ 7/06
patwest
June 26, 2006 - 11:17 am
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Don Quixote is the saga of a man at odds with the reality of his world as he pursues his impossible dream.
Cervantes has chosen this laughable madman as his unlikely "hero" to expose the foibles of his time and to send a cautionary message down through the ages from the Renaissance to us. But just what is this message? |
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CHAPTERS |
DATES |
Chapter 68-70 |
Sept. 12 - 14
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Chapters 71-72 |
Sept. 15 - 16 |
Chapters 73-74 |
Sept. 17 - 18 |
For Your Consideration
Vol. II: Chapters 73 - 74 Sept. 17 - 18
Chapter 73~ - "the omens Don Quixote encountered, as he came home to his own village, along with ohter events that adorn and validate this great history"
1. Why was Cervantes intent on ridding the world of the stories of chivalry? Do you think this was his sole reason for writing his novel? Is that why Don Quixote had to fail in his knightly quest? Did you think Cervantes succeeded in his goal?
2. How did the Church view these tales of knight-errantry? Were they dangerous or merely frivolous? Do you see Sancho's role as defender of the faith when he instructs his master that good Christians don't pay attention to such foolishness as omens, superstition, magicians, the stuff of knight errantry?
3. Does Cervantes indicate his interest in a return to the classics and pastoral ideals of the Golden Age? Had he not been ill, do you think we would have read more of the knight and his "cure" among the sheep?
Chapter 74~ - "how Don Quixote fell sick, and the will he made, and his death"
1. "...life reached its end just when he least thought it might happen." Had he not died first, do you think the Quixotic Shepherd would have been "cured" of his knight errantry after a year in the countryside?
2. Do you agree with his friends and doctor that Don Quixote died of sadness and a broken heart?
How did he come to die a happy, peaceful death?
3. Do you agree with Sancho that Don Quixote was loved by everyone who knew him? What was Sancho's role in this story?
4. Was Cervantes clairvoyant when he penned Sanson's words that Don Quixote will live on for centuries? Why do you think the delusional knight has captured the imagination through the ages?
5. Will you share the pearls of wisdom or lessons learned that you will take home in your saddlebag from this adventure?
Related Links: DON QUIXOTE ELECTRONIC TEXT SEARCHABLE // Bio of Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra//Interview with Translator, Edith Grossman// Rules of Chivalry and Courtly Love // Road Map - Follow the Don //Posting urls from other websites// Spanish Accent Marks//Dore's illustrations by Chapter// Cervantes - Illustrations & Photos // Rojas illustrations//
Discussion Leaders: JoanP ~ Maryal(Deems)
Link to Discussion of Volume I
Readers' Guide Questions for Volume I, Chapters 1 - 52
Readers' Guide Questions for Volume II, Chapters 1 - 72
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Joan Pearson
June 30, 2006 - 05:25 pm
How good is your memory? Can you remember all the way back to April when we started out, determined to take advantage of the group effort, the sisterhood - and finish a book that most of us had never read, or had never finished - or read so long ago, couldn't remember?
Let's rededicate ourselves to this project, even though some never made it back home with the Don after the second adventure to end Volume I.
Let's try this. No matter where you find yourself on the trail, read the last chapter of Volume I - chapter 52 - This is where Cervantes broke for a ten year hiatus before publishing the third adventure in Volume II.
And then let's read the dedication and the Prologue to Volume II to get an idea why Cervantes picked up the pen again to write the breakthrough novel that was to become known as the "first modern" novel.
Do you think you can do that? Skip whatever chapters you haven't finished yet and move right up to Chapter 52. Someday, if you find the time, you can go back and fill in the missing chapters. You do want to finish, don't you?
We'll be looking for you back at the house as Don Quixote...and Sancho set out once more on the quest of the impossible. (Don't miss Sancho's dialogue with Dona Panza. Is that how you refer to a married woman? Dona?) We won't go forward with the first chapters until July 5. That should give you time to get used to your mule again.
JoanK
June 30, 2006 - 07:40 pm
Well, my old mule stumbled in here. Give me awhile to catch my breath and I'm with you again.
1amparo
June 30, 2006 - 08:28 pm
No, JoanP, Teresa Panza would not have the "doña" for she is neither wealthy nor schoolar; she would be "señora ( "señá" in her neighbours' lingo) Teresa".
Amparo
Mippy
July 1, 2006 - 03:51 am
Good morning,
Just checking in, as we hitch up our mules; holiday weekend activities will take a bit of time in the coming 4 days. How nice to be back in the house, in the casa of DQ!
hats
July 1, 2006 - 03:58 am
JoanP I am here. My brain and my mule are going in two different directions too. The word "memory" makes us feel a bit afraid. I think you asked a question about chapter 49 too.
Chapter 49
"Which recounts the clever conversation that Sancho Panza had with his master Don Quixote."
This is the Grossman translation.
Joan Pearson
July 1, 2006 - 06:11 am
Glad to see you here to welcome Don Q and Sancho home to La Mancha, JoanK, Mippy, Hats, Amparo! We'll keep the Volume I trail open for a few more days for the road weary mules to find the way here....
In the meantime, let's look for clues in Chapter 52 as to what we can expect in the next adventure. For one thing, we know that Cervantes plans to give the Don a rest and then send him out again. "...they, [Don Q's niece and housekeeper] were worried sick that their unlce and master, as soon as he felt a bit better, would be up to his old tricks - and what they were worrying about was in fact what happened.
Up to his "old tricks" again? Are you expecting more of the same antics and episodes in Volume II?
hats
July 1, 2006 - 06:15 am
Yes, I am expecting the Don to pick up his knight errantry deeds all over again.
Joan Pearson
July 1, 2006 - 06:24 am
Thanks, Amparo...Seña Juana, (Teresa?) may someday become "Doña" if things work out for Sancho in the next adventure? Seña Panza isn't at all thrilled about the "bigger more important things" her husband has brought home with him this time. What can be more important than shoes for the children?
There's an interesting comment about her last name in Chapter 52, did you notice this?"...Juana Panza (which was Sancho's wife's name, although she wasn't related to him: it was just the custom in La Mancha for a wife to be known by her husband's name.")
I'm wondering why Cervantes included this remark. Does it give the impression that this is a custom unique to La Mancha at this time, but not elsewhere?
Thank you, Hats. I'm glad you checked the quote at the start of chapter 49, but not happy that Grossman gives "Panza" instead of "Pancho" - I had thought that Cervantes made the slip. Guess it was Raffel who needed the editor. It can't hurt to ask you, Amparo - how is Sancho Panza's name given in the Spanish in the first quote of Volume I, chapter 49? I'm looking for "Pancho" as the translator of my edition wrote it.
I'm peering down the trail for the rest of our cohort. Let's wait for them and enjoy the weekend on the veranda at Don Quixote's casa.
Hats expects more of the same in Volume II. I don't know why but I'm looking for a bit more depth and character development. I guess I'm looking for the episodes to flow into one another. hahaha, maybe I'm looking for the "classical unities."
gumtree
July 1, 2006 - 09:39 am
And here I am too just about up to date and ready to move on. I've attempted DQ a few times over the years but have never made it even this far before so I'm determined now to finish come what may. I can't say I've enjoyed the book so far but now I'm looking forward to the oft vaunted second volume and hope all will be revealed.
It is a very confusing book to read and it seems to me that Cervantes has written several different tales and then inserted his story of Don Q and Sancho to link them together.
gumtree
July 1, 2006 - 09:42 am
I don't really follow the game but was sorry to hear about Argentina and Spain both losing their matches.
1amparo
July 1, 2006 - 10:37 am
Just looked at the original dated 1605, it has Sancho Panza, so it looks like there was small typing error perhaps in your edition JoanP?
However, Cervantes must had been as bad at names as I am for he gave Sancho's wife several names, until he settled for "Teresa Panza", as you all will find out
Amparo
Mippy
July 1, 2006 - 02:25 pm
What are [our] expectations for Volume II?
On the dusty road again, no doubt, to experience more wondrous dreams.
Having never read DQ before, I actually have no idea what will happen.
However, Cervantes has amazing fortitude, and I expect another amazing novel-like book, with fantastic experiences for the Don and Sancho! Don't you?
hegeso
July 1, 2006 - 03:54 pm
Thank you, Joan P. for the excellent advice. I will pick up from chapter 52 and go to the second book, with the decision that when the book is finished, I will make up for my loss.
JoanK
July 1, 2006 - 07:40 pm
AMPARO, GUMTREE,: don't abandon our poor DQ. But if you like poetry, we are reading an Australian poet, Henry Lawson, throughout July. C'mon over mates.
HENRY LAWSON'S POETRY
1amparo
July 1, 2006 - 08:18 pm
Thanks mate. Henry Lawson IS Australia!! Very beautiful poesies and very truthful the way he wrote the life of the pioneers. I don't think there would be any home in Oz that does not, at the very least, have one of his books
Amparo
Traude S
July 1, 2006 - 09:08 pm
Joan P and JOAN K, trying to meet the WREX deadline kept me from posting here. But I am fully caught up, and that includes the new assignment. Will share thoughts tomorrow on the last chapters of Part I, as promised.
hats
July 2, 2006 - 02:45 am
Traude, I can't wait to read your thoughts.
Joan Pearson
July 2, 2006 - 08:20 am
Good Sunday morning, amigos!
Today we have sun and humidity in the DC area - and yet we are heading down to the mall for the annual Folk Festival sponsored by the Smithsonian. This is always great fun - certain areas of the US and beyond its borders are featured each year. This year it's Cananda...and New Orleans. Live music, food, art, crafts and industry from these areas...
Mouth is watering for the New Orleans cooking!
Before heading downtown, I wanted to stop in here and tell you how good it is to know you will be continuing along the dusty trail, It wouldn't have been the same without you. And to hear that you are taking advantage of this rest at Don Q's casa to be ready for Volume II.
Mippy and Hats expect more fantastic tales - much the same as in Volume I? Gum is expecting more revelation - and hoping for less confusion.
I'm hoping that we've examined much of what was going on in Spain as Volume I was being written...the Inquisition, the Spanish armada, the acquisition of land in the New World and overspending to finance such expeditions. We haven't touched on the advances resulting elsewhere in Europe - how much has the thinking of the Renaissance scholars, writers, artists influenced Spain? How successful has the Church been in her attempts to fend off humanism?
Mippy speaks of another "novel-like" volume - I'm going to go further and GUESS that the upcoming volume will actually BE a novel. Mippy also speaks of Cervantes' fortitude. I am looking at the publication date of Volume II...and Cervantes death date. I'm not sure about "fortitude"!
Back in a flash! I have a question for you.
Joan Pearson
July 2, 2006 - 08:27 am
Here's my idea. How about WE start a list of what we can learn about Cervantes and about Volume II from reading the Dedication and the Prologue? We can keep a list in the header? Just one thought at a time. Me first.
1. Cervantes is angry, more than he is letting on, at whomever has published a "fake" Don Quixote. This anger motivates him to pick up his pen and return to the knight's story after ten years.
Your turn...anything at all from the "Dedication" and the "Prologue" - I put those two titles in quotes because neither seem to me to be what one would expect in a dedication or a prologue.
Off to the festival in the sweltering heat. Must be crazy.
Please enjoy your day - more sensibly!
Mippy
July 2, 2006 - 09:04 am
Regarding the Dedication:
Is it a pseudo dedication? Was he addressing a real patron?
I don't think so. Who knows whether he even wanted a patron?
Is he making fun of authors who have patrons?
Even though it's way off the time line, I keep thinking of Amadeus, in which Wolfie (Mozart) refuses to do what he ought to do to placate the Emperor and his other patrons. Wolfie wants to be a cut-up, damn the consequences. Isn't there a streak of this personality in Cervantes?
Deems
July 2, 2006 - 10:01 am
Good Sunday morning from hot and steamy Bethesda. I admire JoanP for going to the folk festival. Especially in this weather. It is always hot on the mall in D.C. when temps will be in the nineties. And then you add all the People! Joan, my hat's off to you!
I'm going to the pool to swim instead of eating yummy food on the mall.
By the way, folks, I forgot to subscribe to our new discussion here. SO, reminder to subscribe, if you use subscriptions. I was wondering where everyone was.
TEN YEARS between Parts 1 and 2 of Don Quixote. That's a long time. I'm guessing that Cervantes never planned to continue the story, having wrapped it up in Part I.
But the publication of a spurious Don Quixote egged him into action. After all, these were HIS characters, and here was a usurper attempting to tell their stories (and apparently not doing a very good job of it). He's got to reclaim what is his, after all.
Also, it's helpful to remember how very popular DQ was with the reading public. There must have been much talk about wanting to hear more of the adventures.
But, backtracking, and to pick up a thread I left dangling, there's another piece of evidence to add about Cervantes making and end to Part I. In addition to discussions of those novels about chivalry which occur at both the beginning of the book and at the end (thus forming a circle), there's also the two main attacks, one from the beginning on the windmills. And the one from the end on the march of penitents carrying a statue of the Virgin Mary.
Just as Windmills became Giants, so now the statue of Mary becomes a damsel in distress, who in DQ's eyes is surely being taken against her will. He must to the rescue!
Another circle is enscribed. And so the story comes to rest. Sancho Panza (Hats has already given Grossman's translation and Amparo has affirmed it from the first edition) is home again with his wife, telling her that though he has brought her nothing, his adventures have been worth everything to him.
Did everyone notice Grossman's footnote (oops, sorry, that should be those of you who are reading this translation) that the second salley has only lasted seventeen days! Though it may seem in the reading that DQ and Sancho have been on the road for far longer than that, they have been absent from home only a little over two weeks.
~Maryal
JoanK
July 2, 2006 - 11:16 am
From the dedication: we learn that he really needed the money his patron gave him, and, being Cervantes, found a funny way to remind that patron. According to Raffel, the patron is real. Many artists' only income was that that the patron gave them. I get a sense that this one is something of a taskmaster -- C is delivering this huge volume and already saying the next is coming, it's coming. Given the ten year gap, he may have stretched his patron's patience to the breaking point. (just as I'm stretching a lot of inferences from very little information.
Interesting that almost three centuries later, the pirating of his book was still going on. PATH and I think that the 1898 copy she found among our father's books was pirated -- both the book and Dore's illustrations.
Traude S
July 2, 2006 - 12:09 pm
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear, I was just finishing a long post and AOL cut me off. Grrrrrrrrr
Now to recapture it as best I can.
IMHO the last chapters of Part One, especially 47 to 49, are of great importance especially since we have wondered about the seemingly precipitous ending of the novel, complete with eulogies, and Cervantes' reason for adding the goatherd episode so close to the end of the story.
There is some question as to whether Eugenio was really a goatherd because the canon, a careful observer, "with remarkable curiosity, noted the manner in which he had told (his story), for he was far from resembling a rustic goatherd as he was close to seeming an intelligent
courtier." Chapter 52, pg. 438, Grossman translation. Be that as it may, we'll never know.
Indeed, Cervantes was angry that a pseudonymous author had the temerity to produce a fake sequel to Don Quixote and, what's more injurious, insulted Cervantes and his honor viciously in the prologue.
It is entirely possible IMHO that this could have been an irresistible reason and the prime motivation for Cervantes to write his own sequel so many years later. And so he did, dedicating it to Don Pedro Fernández Ruiz de Castro, his patron. Don Pedro (1576-1622) was the seventh count of Lemos
and the viceroy of Naples from 1610 to 1616. He was patron for several writers, including Cervantes. (Grossman's footnote on pg. 453, Grossman translation).
Artists needed and had patrons at that time, among them were Michelangelo and Leonardo da Vinci.
History never learned the identity of the author of the fake sequel, but Cervantes may have had his suspicions, and he certainly had every reason to be deeply offended.
Here is my point regarding the significance of chapters 47-49. They express, I believe, with singular eloquence Cervantes' creed about the art of writing; they are given voice by the canon.
Not only does the canon present a well-thought out view that <Y>opposes Don Quixote's belief (elaborated over and over again) in the complete truth of all heroics described in chivalric romances, but - and that is far more important IMHO - he, the canon, presents a long list of the attributes a writer should have and the many fields in which he should be conversant.
In my long earlier post I had quoted passages but there is something to be said for brevity, and besides participants use different translations.
A word about Spanish plays might be in order. For Spain it was El siglo de oro the Goldan Age. The best known playwrights of the era were Lope de Vega and Calderón de la Barca. Cervantes too wrote plays, short pieces (Las novelas ejemplares e.g.) and poetry, but his fame rests primarily on DQ.
BTW, did your translation also have the word "gymnosophists" in chapter 47? I wonder what Spanish word was used, is it "gimnosofistos" per chance?
To continue my theory: If we were to regard the extensive exposition of the art of writing as summation, "final words", a credo , might it not be at least hypothetically possible that Cervantes HAD considered DQ finished and wrote Part Two merely because of the provocation of the pseudonomyous author and wanted to set "the record straight"?
That too we'll never know but I wanted to present it here because the discourses make Cervantes' immense knowledge unmistakeably clear for all time. Viewed in this light, the inclusion of the goatherd episode seems gratuitous to me.
I'll quickly post this now before AOL ejects me again.
Deems
July 2, 2006 - 01:04 pm
Traude--I remember being cut off from AOL many years ago. So frustrating. Would it be possible for you to write your post on a word processor and then copy and paste it here?
Then, even if AOL did cut you off, you would have the other copy of your post and could post it again (or for the first time if you were cut off).
I agree with your interesting comments about the end of Part I. I don't think that Cervantes intended to write Part II. I think he was tired of hearing about the spurious Don Quixote and decided to right a few wrongs. If this was indeed his motive, I expect to see some activity in that direction in Part II.
Maryal
hats
July 2, 2006 - 02:23 pm
I think Cervantes is a very astute man. Not displaying his anger might possibly make Cervantes an hero to his reading public. Cervantes comes across as a forgiving gentleman. Next, Cervantes takes precautions by making sure Don Quixote dies and Sancho dies. The ending of Part I is like walking through a graveyard. Gravestone after gravestone tells about the death of the characters in Don Quixote.
There is no way another author will steal Cervantes manuscript. He is a locksmith with a manuscript.
Deems
July 2, 2006 - 02:36 pm
Hats--Yes, all those epitaphs for Don Quixote and his horse and Sancho--a lot like walking through a graveyard, isn't it?
And you remind me that this is one more way that the end of Part I circles back to the beginning. Remember all those opening poems from other knights, real and imaginary? And even one about Rocinante.
joan roberts
July 2, 2006 - 02:47 pm
Hi! I am so happy to be able to start off fresh at Part 2 – I had fallen far behind with little hope of catching up to the rest of you due to my eye problems, but things have improved. I have sworn a solemn oath to myself to go back and read the 27 chapters I’m missing after we finish the second part.
Re: the Age of Chivalry - I read a review of the new book “Agincourt” by Juliet Barker. I quote the review in the NYT:
At Agincourt the French greatly outnumbered the English when it came to knights in armor, but those same numbers proved to be their undoing. The code of chivalry demanded that nobles fight where they were most likely to win fame. Official heralds from both sides stood at strategic vantage points to observe the battle and set down for posterity the deeds of men at arms. The French battle plan had to be abandoned as the leading French noblemen, many named after the knights of Arthurian legend, all took their place in the vanguard.” - where they were cut down by English archers. The use of the bow was considered a lower class pursuit by the French
This makes me want to go back and re-read Henry V or see the movie again!
1amparo
July 2, 2006 - 07:09 pm
The fake "Las Aventuras del Ingenioso Hidalgo Don Quixote de la Mancha" = "Adventures of the Knight Don Quixote de la Mancha" was first to appear in Tarragona (Barcelona province), published in 1614 by Felipe Roberto Publisher, and it is attributed to Alonso Fernandez de
Avellanada, under instigation by Lope de Vega, to hinder Cervantes. Avellanada's cruel and petty remark about Cervantes "More tongue than hands", is attributed to Lope de Vega.(Or at least influenced by him).
That publication prompted Cervantes to speed up his 2nd volume. To any Spaniard the name of "Avellanada" springs to mind: fake DQ!!
But I am sure you know all this.
Amparo
Traude S
July 2, 2006 - 08:02 pm
DEEMS, thank you for commiserating re my being cut off by AOL. Actually I tried exactly what you suggsted (type text in WP and paste it) with my submission for WREX. I failed. At the end I had to retype the entire text directly into the WREX submissions folder, twice!. It took me hours . Oh my. Undaunted, I'll try again.
AMPARO and JOAN ROBERTS, your input is much appreciated. Thank you both.
JOAN P, I'm sure you had a good time at the festival and hope the traffic was manageable.
Regarding the question about the dedication: I would assume that the dedication in letter form was a(n expected) matter of courtesy. The title page carries the dedication with the name and all titles of the patron.
The reader has a good idea that a change of heart on the part of the Don can hardly be expected, and is probably anxious to find out what the Don's plans are and whether they will be successfully executed.
Regarding the prologue: I don't know whether a prologue to a novel requires a specific form. DEEMS may know the answer.
Joan Pearson
July 2, 2006 - 08:16 pm
Sooo glad you found your way in here, JoanR and Maryal!
. The pool!!! Why didn't I think of that? It would have been a lot cooler than downtown DC...though I would have missed the New Orleans' fish platter, collard greens, rice and beans. I think we're going back tomorrow to the Alberta, Canada arts and crafts...venison and bison burgers...
Gum, it seems every team I routed for has gone down in defeat. Maybe I'm a jinx. Right now I'm thinking it will be a Germany/France match-up ... and I'm going for France this time. Does that mean Germany will win the cup?
I'm working from your posts to get a list of everything we can glean from the dedication and prologue. I'll put it in the heading right tonight - I hope! First some comments...and of course some questions.
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Amparo! Thank you so much for that important information. Alonso Fernandez de Avellanada was the culprit! I really wasn't sure whether the fake Don Quixote was Cervantes' fiction. So it was published in 1614! Cervantes died in 1616. He really must have put his spurs into this horse to get the real story to the publisher.
Another thing we learn from the dedication...Cervantes was ill as he wrote Volume II; twice he mentions this in the Dedication - "in addition to being ill, I'm terribly short of cash.
Mippy, I find I'm questioning a lot in the dedication and prologue, as you are. What is fact, what is fiction. I think the Emperor of China's invitation is pure fiction. Not as sure about his patron. I have a footnote in the Raffel translation giving the full name of the Count if Lemos - Don Pedro Fernandez Ruiz de Castro y Osorio (1576-1622) Cervantes patron for the last three years of his life. [1613-1616] JoanK - at least he didn't keep his patron waiting for 10 years! Do you think that the Count may have been a fan of the first volume and that when the fake Quixote appeared, he was so incensed that he contacted Cervantes, offering to sponsor the second volume?
Cervantes says the Count is "in Naples." Traudee, thank YOU for the additional information about the Count of Lemos - he was the Viceroy to Naples! That clears up that mystery about why he was in Italy. (what's a viceroy?)
Cervantes also mentioned in the Prologue another who kept him afloat financially - Cardinal Don Bernardo de Sandoval y Royas, of Toledo. I thought that was interesting. Do you suppose that Cervantes will continue to make light of the Church fathers in this volume with the Cardinal as a sponsor? Does anyone know anything about the Spanish Inquisition at this time? Have tensions eased in the ten years since the last volume?
Lots more juicy posts here...begging comment in the morning. Right now, I'll put the list in the heading. Hats, I want to talk with you about how forgiving Cervantes was towards the author of the fake Quixote before putting that fine attribute in the heading!
Pillow calls...
1amparo
July 2, 2006 - 10:06 pm
It was still applicable, minus the burning etc., during Franco's era. The Bible has only been off the prohibited list since Franco's death in 1975. Spain is now fully democratic country and everything goes!
Cervantes NEVER forgave Avellanada.
Amparo
hats
July 3, 2006 - 02:35 am
Amparo, Cervantes certainly didn't forgive Avellanada. I agree with you. I don't blame Cervantes either. I would have felt the same way. I would have felt steaming anger.
I do feel that Cervantes was very shrewd. Cervantes might have covered up his underlying feelings hoping that the public, his readers, would believe he had forgiven his betrayer. I think it was a master strategy. Probably, not filling his Dedication and Prologue with biting hatred, made people feel empathy and sorrow for him, especially women. I bet the women just cried their eyes out for the man, Cervantes, who had been wronged and yet, he refused to fight back. The men too would have slapped Cervantes on the back and called him a gentleman. I think Cervantes played psychological or emotional warfare.
To me, Cervantes used a knightly strategy, forgiveness. He apears to forgive the unforgivable. I think Cervantes was as mad as a wet hen. Would it have profited him anything to play dirty by spatting words back and forth? Who can hate a person who refuses to wrestle in the dirt with a man who has stolen his prize? No one. Who can despise an angry man? Everybody.
"...the truth is I will not give you that pleasure, for although offenses awaken rage in the most humble hearts, in mine this rule must find its exception. You would like me to call him an ass, a fool, an insolent dolt, but the thought has not even entered my mind: let his sin be his punishment, let him eat it with his bread, and let that be an end to it."
In other words, Avellanada's conscience would do far more harm than Cervante's nasty words or Cervantes sword or fist.
I see Don Quixote in Cervantes. Don Quixote, Cervante's character, played at being a hero, wished to be a hero. In the end, Cervante's plays out his character's life in his "real" life by using the tool of forgiveness like any knight errant.
I am left with two questions:
1. Was Don Quixote really mad or insane?
2. Did Cervantes really have a heart of forgiveness or did he pretend to forgive in order to win all and take all?
hats
July 3, 2006 - 02:39 am
Joan, may I have some of the collard greens, rice and beans please? Where is the barbecue? I am glad you had a good time.
Deems, I had forgotten all about those sonnets in the beginning of Don Q. Thanks for the reminder. Now I want to read those sonnets. I am going back. I might have a better understanding.
Traude, I always wait anxiously for your insights. Thank you again. I hate to lose a message. It makes me get in a bad mood for a little while(grumble, grumble).
Joan Roberts Thank you for the review of the new book “Agincourt” by Juliet Barker.
hats
July 3, 2006 - 03:07 am
My attribute for Cervantes is shrewd. In all that gobbley goop I wrote, my words might not come across(tear, tear).
judywolfs
July 3, 2006 - 06:45 am
Thank you for waiting on the veranda for the rest of us. I’ll certainly be ready to start out on July 5th. I admit it, I’m with Hats re my expectations for Volume II – I anticipate more of the same type antics. I’ll be very glad if my anticipation is off base.
Deems, I didn’t notice the footnote about the 17 days, but way back I did notice that the trip must have covered a very short distance, what with Pancho running back to leave a message for the Don’s “lady” and how it didn’t seem too difficult for the priest to catch up with them. How funny that it takes us longer to read about the adventures than it originally took to experience them!
I recently read an interview with Rawlings (author of Harry Potter books) in which there was speculation about whether she would or would not kill off the characters – to lock them in as her own - when she ends the 7th and final book.
Have a happy 4th of July, everyone - I'll be back on Wednesday.
~JudyS
Joan Pearson
July 3, 2006 - 10:48 am
I'm getting antsy to get back on the trail to see what Cervantes has planned for us - especially with so many familiar faces! It's good to see you gathering here again! Judy, you are anticipating more of the same type antics? What do the rest of you think we can expect?
From what Amparo tells us about the Inquisition and censorship, we are a long way from 1975. I think we can expect more attacks on censorship then, but I don't see Don Quixote drawing his sword to attack priests...now that the Cardinal is sponsoring Cervantes.
I'll guess the answer lies in Cervantes' motives for writing VOlume II. Maryal - Maryal - "I don't think that Cervantes intended to write Part II." That's quite interesting. When do you think he wrote Chapter 52 - the last chapter of Volume I which contained the epitaphs in the graveyard, the eulogies, etc? Do you think he added that chapter 10 years later, after Avellanada's Quixote stories were published? It's very possible, when you consider that he wrote the Prologue to Chapter I ten years later to be included in the entire novel, Volume I and II when it was published.
Several of you have noted Cervantes' rage at the "spurious" Don Quixote. Maryal expects Cervantes to send the knight out in Volume II to "right a few wrongs"...I agree, his fury may be his motive in this volume and we can "expect to see some activity in that direction in Part I."
While Traudee has noted that "a change of heart on the part of the Don can hardly be expected"...but I think that revenge for personal injury is something we haven't witnessed in Don Quixote in Volume I - although we have seen his wicked temper, haven't we? I think revenge would add a new dimension in Volume II.
I also suspect that the other Quixote stories were modelled after the episodes in Cervantes' tales in Volume I - and Cervantes will accept the challenge to prove he is capable of more and write something more than a string of loosely connected episodes which the imitator imitated. Judy, I hope I'm right about this and haven't got your hopes up by saying this.
Joan Pearson
July 3, 2006 - 11:11 am
Hats, I'm still thinking about your question - > "Did Cervantes really have a heart of forgiveness or did he pretend to forgive?"
I'll agree with you when you say Cervantes was shrewd. But forgiving?
"I see Don Quixote in Cervantes. Don Quixote... wished to be a hero. In the end, Cervantes' plays out his character's life in his "real" life by using the tool of forgiveness like any knight errant.
Maybe we will see this in Don Quixote in Volume II, maybe not. I'm not sure we see Cervantes forgiving Avellanada. But I think he avoided doing that in a shrewd way by writing in the Prologue that comes down to us through the ages that it hadn't occurred to him to call the man "an ass, a fool, an insolent dolt"...as others have urged him to do...but Hats, he just has! If he'd really forgiven him, would he even mention what others think of him? Shrewd, but don't really see forgiveness. Did others see the generous knightly forgiveness here?
JoanR, somehow I think your comment about the code of chivalry demanding nobles to fight where most likely to win fame was at work in Cervantes prologue. He knew how to "win fame."
Hats, we'll all be interested in answering your first question...is Don Q. a madman in Volume II. If you are reading Chapters I and II yet, you'll see that Cervantes wastes no time getting right to the matter of lunacy.
In the meantime, I'm waiting for some kind soul to come along and explain the point of the two dog stories in the Prologue! Doglovers? Mippy? Maryal? Catlovers? Anyone?
hats
July 3, 2006 - 11:22 am
JoanP I do not think that Cervantes forgave Avellanada. Cervantes, I think, was shrewd in that he hid his anger.
I can become befuddled. I am only a reader with a small understanding. I bow in politeness to your summary of the Dedication and the Prologue. I appreciate you taking the time just to comment on my puzzling ideas. You are a very polite discussion leader.
Joan Pearson
July 3, 2006 - 12:15 pm
Oh Hats, my perception is just one of the many. I tend to get overly involved in how I see things. Because you see forgiveness, doesn't mean that I am right in seeing Cervantes shrewdly holding Avellanada up for ridicule. You are not befuddled. I am often so.
Maybe we are both saying the same thing? Cervantes was angry, did not forgive and forget, but was shrewd in the way he addressed this blackguard in his Prologue by announcing that he would not criticize him in public? I guess it comes down to whether he really meant it when he said he did not intend to address the the despicable act in his prologue as others had urged him to do.
hats
July 3, 2006 - 01:38 pm
JoanP,you have the gift of writing. In just a few words you have written what I wanted to write.
JoanP's quote below
"Maybe we are both saying the same thing? Cervantes was angry, did not forgive and forget, but was shrewd in the way he addressed this blackguard in his Prologue by announcing that he would not criticize him in public?"
I never meant to imply that Cervantes forgave the scoundrel. I wanted to write about Cervantes ability to shroud his anger. This is why I called Cervantes shrewd. When you write that I felt Cervantes' "forgave" Avellanada, you hurt me because I never felt Cervantes forgave him. Cervantes was eloquent, cautious and shrewd in writing about his anger toward the "blackguard."
In this way, I felt he played the part of a knight errant. He acted like a gentleman by shrewdly writing his words. If not read carefully, it might seem like an act of forgiveness but it is not forgiveness.
I get carried away too. When you love books, authors and characters it tends to happen. I know just how you feel. For me, it's not always easy to get my meaning across. I edit, edit again and think again and again. In my mind all of the DL's here are highly qualified people with great insight into literature. I feel the same way about the posts of each poster. I do not take your words lightly. So, JoanP I fully understand your thoughts after more than one reading. I do not, in one iota, disagree with you. I just think my reply was puzzling.
Are we holding up the mules on this dusty trail?
Deems
July 3, 2006 - 01:59 pm
Well I'm confused. Joan P, you wrote:
Maryal - "I don't think that Cervantes intended to write Part II." That's quite interesting. When do you think he wrote Chapter 52 - the last chapter of Volume I which contained the epitaphs in the graveyard, the eulogies, etc? Do you think he added that chapter 10 years later, after Avellanada's Quixote stories were published? It's very possible, when you consider that he wrote the Prologue to Chapter I ten years later to be included in the entire novel, Volume I and II when it was published. Do you mean that you think that Chap 52 of Part I was written 14 years later when the spurious DQ was published????
If it were, then there would have had to be another ending on Part I. It doesn't matter that Cervantes wrote a new introduction when he added Part II. Introductions are the last thing written.
Having scrupulously read all of Grossman's footnotes and noticing, when I turn back to Chap 52 of Part I, that there is no footnote indicating that this chapter was changed, added, altered, or whatever, I'd have to say, No, it wasn't written later. If it had been, Grossman would have had a footnote. No doubt in my mind. (Notice how rigid I have become
.)
But, oh boy, you are right about Cervantes saying what he won't say and then saying it by saying what he won't say. I think that move has a name in rhetoric, but I have no idea what it is.
I also like, in the Prologue to the Reader, his defense of his attack on Lope de Vega (who along with Calderon de la Barca was a great playwright of the time) in the first part of DQ. Grossman here points out that Lope de Vega, despite being a priest, led a dissolute private life--shades of some of those clergymen in Canterbury Tales!
Also in the prologue, I like this part:
I think you will say that I am showing great restraint and am keeping well within the bounds of modesty, knowing that one must not add afflictions to the afflicted, and the affliction of this gentleman [Avellaneda--the author of the spurious DQ] is undoubterdly very great, for he does not dare to appear openly in the light of day but hides his name and conceals his birthplace, as if he had committed some terrible act of treason against the crown. Again Cervantes attacks the writer of the spurious DQ indirectly, saying that he must have terrible afflictions if he won't admit either his name or his birthplace.
You know, I wonder if Lope de Vega wrote this spurious Part II? It would be a clever way to get back at Cervantes for his attack. However, I'm pretty sure if it had been someone as famous as this playwright, scholars would already have figured it out.
Still, it's fun to think about.
~Maryal
Deems
July 3, 2006 - 02:14 pm
I've been looking up Lope de Vega and think I've caught Grossman in an error. She says that he was a priest. The Encyclopedia says that he was studying with the Jesuits for the priesthood but that he "soon left the Alcalá on the heels of a married woman."
Later in life, after a tumultuous time with and actress, "Vega abducted Isabel de Urbina (the “Belisa” of many of his poems), the beautiful 16-year-old sister of Philip II's earl marshal. They were forced to marry, and the new husband immediately departed with the Spanish Armada against England. "
What times! Imagine being an important playwright, living a life of scandal and also fighting in the Armada!
Deems
July 3, 2006 - 02:19 pm
Lope de Vega continued to have a tumultuous life. Many many lovers, lawsuits, etc.
Then,
"In 1609 he entered the first of several religious orders. From this time on he wrote almost exclusively religious works, though he also continued his theatrical work, which was financially indispensable. In 1614 he entered the priesthood, but his continued service as secretary and panderer to his patron, the duke of Sessa, hindered him from obtaining the ecclesiastical benefits he sought. The duke, fearful of losing Vega's services, succeeded in having one of the poet's former lovers, the actress Lucia de Salcedo, seduce Vega. The duke thus permanently recovered his secretary. Vega thereafter became involved in new and scandalous romantic relationships."
Synopsis: He seduced many women, married a couple, seduced more women, became a priest, was himself seduced and in off hours wrote a number of good plays.
Deems
July 3, 2006 - 02:21 pm
Here's the end of the Encyclopedia Brittanica's article on Lope de Vega:
"His closing years were full of gloom. His last lover, Marta de Nevares, who shared his life from 1619 until her death in 1632, lost first her sight and then her sanity in the 1620s. The death at sea of his son Lope Félix del Carpio y Luján and the abduction and abandonment of his youngest daughter, Antonia Clara, both in 1634, were blows that rent his soul. His own death in Madrid in August 1635 evoked national mourning.
Mippy
July 3, 2006 - 02:38 pm
Lope de Vega sounds like the prototype for Casanova, doesn't he? But why national mourning?
Sorry, this dog-lover has no inside woof on what the prologue means.
No insight on anything here: too much housework, now that guests are leaving, too much sun
(hurray for a lazy afternoon), and not enough time spent re-reading DQ ... maybe tonight ...
What cute twirly stars in the header!
Have a Terrific 4th of July !
JoanK
July 3, 2006 - 04:28 pm
JOANP: on French and English nobles: Barbara Tuchman has a lot to say about this in her history of 16th century France "A Distant Mirror". I don't remember whether it was Agincourt or another battle where the French nobles insisted on being in the front line, with the archers behind them. The French archers couldn't shoot -- they would have hit there own men. But the enemy put their archers on the flanks and mowed down the French.
In another battle, the French were fighting in a narrow valley. So many nobles insisted on being in the Front line, that they were squeezed in by the sides and literally couldn't move.
The Turks quickly caught on to this nonsense. They would send the ragtag elements of their army first, and the nobles would expend all their energy on them. Then would come the prime fighting men.
JoanK
July 3, 2006 - 04:34 pm
Tuchman blames some of this on jousting! The knights thought warfare should be just like their games.
I wonder if I'm the only one here who has actually seen jousting live? Believe it or not, it is the state sport of Maryland. Every year, there is a Renaissance festival, and one of the attractions is a jousting match. It's a real blast. It has the ambiance of one of those wrestling matches you see on TV, with the participants throwing insults at each other, and describing in gory detail what they are going to do to each other. The actual charging is almost an anti-climax.
1amparo
July 3, 2006 - 06:49 pm
Happy 4th of July!!
Amparo
Joan Pearson
July 4, 2006 - 07:48 am
Why thank you, Amparo! That means a lot coming from you! I hope everyone finds a way to celebrate and remember our freedoms...unfurl your flag, watch some fireworks - on tv if you can't get out...eat some apple pie (blueberries and strawberries if you are dieting, ) wear something red/white/blue...and feel the spirit that unifies us all!
Hats - I've reread your posts about Cervantes' feigned act of forgiveness to the "blackguard" who kidnapped his Don Quixote character. It is very clear - you said repeatedly that Cervantes didn't forgive him..."He acted like a gentleman by shrewdly writing his words. If not read carefully, it might seem like an act of forgiveness but it is not forgiveness."
JoanK, I never attended the Maryland Renaissance Festival but have heard of it. Had a friend years ago who used to go and participate in Morris dancing at the festival. When you wrote of "the participants throwing insults at each other, and describing in gory detail what they are going to do to each other" it brought home to me just how these stories of the knights-errant were just that - stories, with lots of embellishment.
JoanR wrote of the knights' limited participation in the big battles, with their own "official heralds" reporting - and embellishing their noble deeds. So here again in the Prologue, we have Cervantes proclaiming in so many words what he intends to do with knave who usurped his character. As Hats said, he speaks in the loft style of a knight-errant.
Here's my question du jour - Were any of the stories of knights-errant and chivalry which our Don was fond of reading factual? Based on real characters and actual accomplishments? Or were they all fictionalized, embellished accounts?
********************************************
Maryal - you don't think it was possible that Cervantes tacked on those eulogies and epitaphs to Chapter 52 when he began to write part II? I'm not saying that he wrote all of Chapter 52 later...but the eulogies seemed to be tacked on to the END of the chapter after Don Quixote has been brought home.
I got a kick out of the author asking us "to take all this exactly as seriously as sensible people always take tales of chivalry..." How could any sensible person take them seriously - either the eulogies OR the tales of chivalry? Is that what Cervantes is saying here?
Joan Pearson
July 4, 2006 - 08:00 am
Have you read the first two chapters yet? I really can't wait to get started tomorrow! Without going into detail I have to say that Cervantes wastes no time getting into the issue of madness. He did say something in the prologue about the subject too, but his point was lost on me.
The madman took great delight on dropping a load of marble on dogs' heads to watch them run away howling in pain. One day a dog owner beat up the madman for doing this to his whippet, repeating "Whippet, whippet" with each whiplash. Now the madman learned his lesson, but about a month later, he was up to his old tricks again and took up an even heavier load. BUT every dog he approached became a "whippet" in his mind and he never again dropped a load of marble on any dog.
Now what is Cervantes saying about this madman? Is the madman Don Quixote, who went looking for foes to make a name for himself? Has he been severely beaten down? He's resting at home for a month, but now he is up to his old tricks, heading out to seek more adventure? Has he learned anything from the previous experiences?
I'm just guessing. Maybe Cervantes is making reference to something else...to the author of the false Quixote stories? Do you think this is something to keep in mind as we begin Volume II? Will we see a Don Quixote who approaches his enemies with restraint, after learning lessons from earlier episodes? What does the "whippet" story say to you???
Deems
July 4, 2006 - 08:13 am
Morning all and Happy 4th. Thank you, Amparo, for the greeting. It's good to get a greeting from Australia!
Joan P--Maybe the reason those tacked on epitaphs seem so odd to you is that Raffel didn't include the sonnets at the beginning. There are ten of them, all written by Cervantes although attributed to others, some purported to be written by Amadis of Gaul, for example. Omitting them leaves out some of the balance of the beginning and the end of Part I.
Those sonnets are our way in and the epitaphs our way out, in other words.
Amparo, we need you to check out those early editions of yours and tell us if the epitaphs are in the original.
Plans for the day: I'm going to read Chaps 1 and 2 of DQ, then swim, then go see "The Devil Wears Prada," then watch fireworks. That all sounds festive to me.
ALF
July 4, 2006 - 10:45 am
Have I completely dropped my reins here?
I am reading the electronic text and I do not see Chapter 52, of part I.
Joan Pearson
July 4, 2006 - 12:11 pm
Mercy! Look who's here! Kill the fatted calf! Andy, take a load off your feet mule and come sit on the veranda? Some lemonade? We need to hear all about your adventures in the hills. We've missed you!
Sure enough, there is no Chapter 52 in the searchable on-line text in the heading. I found this one in Project Gutenburg. Hopefully it is just what you are looking for:
Chapter 52 - electronic text
Thankful that you have arrived off that dusty trail in time for the fireworks!
hegeso
July 4, 2006 - 12:27 pm
I have the Smollett translation. At the beginning of Book II, there is a Preface, followed by an Approbation, an Ordinary Licence, and a further Approbation. The last three parts are the insurance against the accusation of being anti-Church and religion.
I started by abandoning the reading of the Preface; I just wanted to have fun and read the story, but, influenced by the posters here, decided to take the Preface more seriously.
There was a 10-year hiatus between Book I and Book II, which must have been anything but quiet. While reading the Preface, I felt as if seeing one half of a duel, only the movements of one of the participants. However, this enabled me to see also the unseen movements of the partner, who had besmearched him by saying that he had acquired his wound in a tavern brawl, and endangered him by his accusation of inveighing against a priest who, moreover, was connected to the Holy Inquisition. That was very dangerous. That was the reason that C. had to enclose the two Approbations and the Licence. There is more here than meets the eye. It could have turned into real danger.
C. did well to play the role of a generous man; however, he couldn't completely hide his feelings, and the two dog epizodes give a hint of his real feelings about the 'mad' Avellanos.
I might be totally wrong, but this is what I see, and am anxiously waiting for your answers.
Joan Pearson
July 4, 2006 - 04:42 pm
Hello there, Hegeso! I've had computer shut down for the last couple of hours. A ferocious line of storms ripped through the area, upending hundred year old oak trees, taking down power lines. Things are settled now. We lost no trees, no power. A number of houses with trees lying into the roofs seem to be unoccupied. I'm thinking that the owners are either on vacation or on the way home from a long weekend at the beach. Poor folks.
So happy that you took the time to read the material in the preface. I see nothing like that in the Raffel translation! You're right...it sounds more serious than one angry author writing about another's transgressions.
I'm wondering if "the priest connected to the Inquisition" wasn't the infamous Lope de Vega Maryal wrote about yesterday. Nevertheless, he was a priest of the Church and Cervantes was smart enough not to get him riled up. Will add this to the list in the heading of things to watch for in Volume II. Caution not to offend the Church will continue to be imporant, even with the Cardinal in Cervantes corner! Would like to learn more about the tavern brawl.
So, you think the shaggy dog stories were related to the fake Don Quixote business? I'd love to hear how others understood them. Who does the madman carrying the marble blocks represent?
I'm so looking forward to tomorrow - to see if a mellower Cervantes hasn't created mellower Don Quixote. Or - will an angrier Cervantes come up with an edgier knight? What do you think? Hope to see you here!
hegeso
July 4, 2006 - 05:45 pm
The priest mentioned there was an active official of the Inquisition. I don't think it could have been Lope de Vega, but what do I know?
I think that the second shaggy dog story is also about the author who stole the Don. But if I had been in the shoes of C., I wouldn't have added the two stories, but he might have been incapable of swallowing the offense (well, it is easy for me to feel that way)
boookworm
July 4, 2006 - 06:06 pm
Have been following a little behind you with my two squires, Dickens (springer spaniel) and Sartre (cat), have enjoyed your insightful posts and not sure we could contribute anything more. As we don’t have a compass kept straying from the path a times, through Flaubert, Dickens and a very long detour through Trollope. Read Don Q in college and loved--and after the first few books felt the same now. Agree with the posts that pointed out Cervantes was using comedy to subtly criticize the powers that were and most people probably only caught the comedy; even today people that speak too bluntly against the government run into problems and unfortunately no one has the genius to do it as delicately as Cervantes. I sympathize with the Don, also being someone crazed by reading too much.
JoanK
July 4, 2006 - 06:16 pm
WELCOME, BOOKWORM! And welcome to your faithful squires! With those names, they should be better at it than Sancho. Do Dickens and Sartre get along? (That's a question I never thought I'd ask!)
What do you want us to call you?
1amparo
July 4, 2006 - 07:24 pm
...Was under the sponsorship and services of The Inquisitor General, Don Jeronimo Manrique.
Love de Vega, while as priest had two wifes and many lovers... at times keeping two homes for them! and many children from most of them. Talk about church hypocrisy!!!
It was Lope de Vega whom spread rumors that Cervantes could be "homosexual". So far there are no basis for this.
Deems. At the end of chapter 52 Cervantes had sonets and epitaphs: "HOC SCRIPSERUNT", "IN LAUDEM DULCINEAE DEL TOBOSO", plus four more. Is that what you mean?
Amparo
ALF
July 4, 2006 - 08:05 pm
Thanks for the Gutenburg translation of chapter LII, part I. I am up to date at long last and will ride out with you all tomorrow.
boookworm
July 4, 2006 - 08:10 pm
Dickens and Sartre get along very well; Dickens is more into gardening and ball and Sartre likes reading best. My name is Sheila
Deems
July 4, 2006 - 08:23 pm
Welcome, boookworm!! We are happy to have you join us for our big adventure into Part II.
I have gone ahead and read the first two chapters and part of Chapter 3, and I promise delights ahead for all.
Despite the ten year gap in publication, there's no time gap for DQ and Sancho. We pick them up shortly after we left them with DQ back home and the barber and priest come to visit.
Amparo--Yes, that's exactly what I was asking. Thank you so much. Joan P--Epitaphs in the original. Rafel maybe should have translated all those opening poems.
We went to Frederick, Maryland for fireworks and wound up right in town with the KAbooMs echoing off all the old buildings. Took the Jack Russells for their ride in the country. Girl one, Kemper Elizabeth, does NOT like fireworks!
ANDY!! Good to see you, girl. Hope you've had a fine time visiting and that Bill is feeling better.
Maryal
Joan Pearson
July 5, 2006 - 03:46 am
What a GOOD GOOD morning!
We are so very happy to welcome you back, Andy - for as long as you can stay! Don't worry, We'll be here when you get back home.
- And look, it's boookworm! Folks, boookworm isn't new! She started out with us all those months ago - Sheila, as I recall, you weren't happy with the Raffel translation. Which one are you reading now? I'll bet you went back to the library and got lost in the stacks! Flaubert? Trollope (did you enjoy Trollope?) You are indeed a bookworm! Let me join the others in welcoming you back!
Amparo, thank you for answering Hegeso's excellent question. From what Maryal told us about Lope de Vega, it was difficult to imagine him as an Inquisition official - but you've cleared that one up nicely.
The curtain opens, a month after Don Quixote was returned home in the oxcart. I DO notice subtle changes already in these first two chapters. Can't decide if the knight's experiences on the earlier expeditions have brought about the change, or whether the ten year hiatus has changed Cervantes' treatment of his character?
I'm looking forward to hearing whether you sensed anything different about him or if this is just my over active imagination at work! I love the image of the knight sitting in bed in his little green bedjacket ...and red Toledo cap, though I don't know what a "toledo cap" is. I imagine a stocking cap. Maybe he seems more approachable and vulnerable in his sick bed.
Your turn...I'm off to baby sit two little active boys this morning and will eagerly tune in to hear what you all have to say when I get back!
marni0308
July 5, 2006 - 07:16 am
Hi, folks! Hope you all had a good holiday. I've been off the trail for the long weekend. We went to Vermont and various family picnics, etc. I've got some catching up to do.
My book seems to be a bit different from yours. I don't have a Dedication in mine at all. (I just read the Dedication in the online version.)
I do have an Approval section just after Chpt 52. There are 3 Approvals of the 2nd Part of Don Quixote, one writen by the Licentiate Marques Torres, one by Dr. Cutierre De Cetina, and one by Joseph De Valdivielso, all written in 1615. It seems these men examined the book to see if it contained anything "prejudicial to religion or morals."
Torres could find "nothing unworthy of a zealous Christian, or deviating from that respect which is justly due to good example and moral virtue." De Cetina found it "fraught with much lawful amusement, blended with moral philosophy." Valdivielso found "much honest recreation, and agreeable amusement" and found the author "mingled fiction with truth, delight with instruction, and morals with pleasantry; disguising the hook of reproof, with the bait of sprightly entertainment, and fulfilling the sequel of his well-executed scheme, to depreciate and expel the books of chivalry, from the mischievous contagion of which he hath purged these kingdoms, with admirable diligence and dexterity."
I thought at first that it was really Cervantes who wrote these Approvals. But there is a footnote that says "Approval from an ecclesiastical censor was required in 1615, when part II of Don Quixote was published (it was not needed in 1605 for part I)."
marni0308
July 5, 2006 - 07:19 am
Re: "What does the "whippet" story say to you???"
My edition says "spaniels" in this Preface instead of "whippets."
hats
July 5, 2006 - 08:57 am
Hi JoanP, and Maryal, Marni and All
JoanP, I can't wait to hear about the "subtle" differences you have detected in Don Q. At first it seems like he is totally in touch with reality. Then, when the problem in Turkey is brought up, his mind seems to retrogress. He wants to solve the problem with knight errants. At this point, he seems mad. This is the line.
"Is it by any chance surprising for a single knight errant to vanquish an army of two hundred thousand men..."
I don't know how to explain his behavior. I do love his green vest and red hat. What does that hat look like?
hats
July 5, 2006 - 09:09 am
I think the Don is more cautious in showing his "real" attitude. In the second chapter the Don asks Sancho what are people saying about his behavior. Before, on his first journey, I don't think he had sense enough to worry about what people thought about his daring deeds.
In the first chapter all the names of knights and giants are confusing for me. I can't tell who are real or who are fictional characters from his books of chivalry. I do know Goliath is "real" to Christians.
ALF
July 5, 2006 - 12:29 pm
Is it a cap manufactured in Toledo, Spain?
Good night! I have forgotten how to do this and am not at home to give the web site the correct way.
check it out
hats
July 5, 2006 - 01:37 pm
Spain toledo Alf, I hope it works. Where is the hat???
ALF
July 5, 2006 - 04:45 pm
hahaha thanks Hat. I can't tell you how many times I tried to do that link and messed it up. I became frustrated with my lapse of memory and lo and behold after finding that Toledo could be the manufacturing city I became all excited to post the link. DUH, as the kids say. Let me work on this.
ALF
July 5, 2006 - 05:01 pm
No can do Hats. I'm with the rest of you. What does the cap look like? It matters not as the Don has flipped his cookie once again. The curate and the barber tested his sanity and he went off on a tangent, knowing better than the King or his advisors. He's got the answer but doesn't choose to tell it to them at that time as he could lose out on the "rewards for his trouble."
He pictures the glory and the defeat of two hundred thousand men. What has happened here though? He says that if God will have regard for his people, and will provide some one, who, if not so valiant as the knights-errant of yore, at least will not be inferior to them in spirit; but God knows what I mean and I say no more." I'm glad God does, because I'm lost on that thought.
Before he did nothing but say. The old boy has backed off some. Is he questioning the prowress of the knights-errant at this point?
boookworm
July 5, 2006 - 05:34 pm
I went with the Smollett translation--like the older style better. The Way We Live Now was the first Trollope had read and did it with the Barnes and Noble on-line reading group-do quite a few of their classics. In town here, Chico, CA, there is a group of about 500 seniors that has a peer led classes sponsored by the local university; one class is a book group and last year I talked them into doing Madame Bovary, but couldn’t get them to do Red and Black next year. My house contains enough books for a library, but unfortunately not at all organized. Sheila
hegeso
July 5, 2006 - 05:35 pm
Thank you, Amparo. You are right. I shouldn't open my mouth before opening a book. Lope de Vega was really an official in the Inquisition, and what is more, one of the accused was found guilty, owing to the good services of L. de V. and was burned.
This was the first time in my life that I looked up his biography. It wasn't a pleasant reading.
Joan Pearson
July 5, 2006 - 06:52 pm
Rain, rain, go away! It seems we're always complaining these days...draught or downpours! We're waterlogged here in VA tonight - how about you? Some of the storms have been ferocious and I've had to shut down and unplug this computer, so afraid of lightening frying the motherboard! This will be quick and dirty before the next line of storms hits -
Sheila - Did you enjoy your first encounter with Trollope? I've never read him and see so many that have been influenced by him. Would you recommend reading him with a group? So you too have Smollett - like Hegeso. (Hegeso - wasn't Lope de Vega something else? To think that he was an official of the Inquisition, censoring others is mind boggling!)
Marni - your edition (Smollett?) sounds like Hegeso's too ...with the three Approvals. Isn't it odd, this variety of preliminary material? Here's my own take on the differences. Cervantes died before the whole book, the two volumes were published as one. When it was put together, all peripheral materials, letters, notes, "approvals" were put together in one place. Some editions published some of the peripherals, some different ones...not wanting to lose anything connected with Cervantes' work. What do you think?
Marni, I was interested to hear that the book was examined by the official censors before it was published - and nothing offensive was detected! Oh, wasn't Cervantes too clever and shrewd!
Joan Pearson
July 5, 2006 - 06:54 pm
Hats - that's it! I noticed too that the Don seems interested in what others think of him. He wasn't like that before, was he? He seemed off in his own world and ready to fly off the handle if someone questioned his knighthood. Now he wants to hear what others think of him - and even when Sancho tells him people think he is insane, he seems to take it with equanimity. All great men are persecuted by their detractors...Julius Caesar, for example!
Does the knight seem better to you? Cured of his delusions? Hats brings up the business of his belief that knights errant will solve the king's problem of the approaching Turks. Andy when reading your post, I get the feeling that Don Q. is commenting that the spirit, the purpose and dedication of the knights of old seems to be missing. The king needs to know that his leaders are lacking spirit and drive. How mad is this? Couldn't a good military leader stave off the armada or devise a plan? Is renewed purpose called for here to energize the Spanish army?
Is Cervantes in his own way, commenting on the soldiers and their leaders - compared to those who fought the Turks when he was young?
Joan Pearson
July 5, 2006 - 07:04 pm
Spaniels! Not "Whippets"? Two different breeds! Raffel has "whippets"...how about Grossman? Let's ask Amparo what she sees in Spanish! This is amazing to me!
How many of the names of knights - and giants do you recognize? Hats recognizes Goliath = the biblical giant. Does Cervantes question whether there was such a giant as described in the Bible?
Andy, I loved the tour of Toledo, but alas, no "toledo caps" to be seen. I checked through an online collection of Dore's illustrations, hoping he had captured the cap...but saw nothing. I did Google it and came up only with this "toledo cap"(but rejected it outright because it doesn't look like anything our Don would be wearing in bed) -
Let's put this in
Amparo's pile to check. Maybe the Spanish words will provide another explanation of such a cap?
I'm relieved our Don is resting comfortably...and eating! Road food is always so unhealthy! No, I didn't say "road kill" but that stuff isn't healthy either!
1amparo
July 5, 2006 - 11:23 pm
LOL. Neither "spaniels" nor "whippets". Cervantes wrote: ...
"¿a mi pedenco? (=hound) ¿No viste, cruel, que era pedenco mi perro? =
"...to my
hound? Did you not see, cruel, that is was my hound dog?
(From there on all dogs, regardles of bread, were "hounds" to the madman).
I don't think that in Cervantes time "peak caps" (???) were fashionable. I cannot find any illustration of DQ on his bed.
What about Pinocchio's grandfather? I remember a cartoon of him on his night shirt, cap on and candle holder in hand... or was it Nutcracker...????
Toledo; for many years home to "El Greco".
Amparo
hats
July 6, 2006 - 01:02 am
JoanP, I can't find the hounds or whippets in my book. Is this in the Dedication or Prologue? Maybe there is another Grossman in the crowd. I think the Don feels in the past there were better men or men made of better stock alive to fight off the Turks. The Don feels he can fill the shoes of the present unworthy men. The Don is really, it seems, on God's mission now. To me, The Don is now strengthened in a purpose for his quest.
Amparo, I am a little bit familiar with El Greco. In his paintings, I think, the people or figures had elongated bodies. His paintings are wonderful. I didn't know El Greco lived in Toledo.
I am just guessing now. Did El Greco paint "The Yellow Christ?" Anything yellow makes me think of Van Goph. This time I think El Greco painted The Christ in yellow. Maybe I am wrong. I am depending on some past memory.
That cap looks like a Civil War cap. It doesn't remind me of the Don's style. I would rather go along with Pinocchio's grandfather's hat. I am imagining it's the type of hat that would add pizzazz to that green vest.
I am going to look for "whippets" or "hounds." Amparo, you already answered the question, didn't you?
hats
July 6, 2006 - 01:49 am
Sorry, I made a booboo. My curiosity got the best of me. "The Yellow Christ" is painted by Gauguin.
JoanP and Amparo, The Grossman translation is "hound." Well, Amparo wrote that already.
Mippy
July 6, 2006 - 03:31 am
JoanP ~
you wrote:
Trollope ... Would you recommend reading him with a group?
I know this is off-subject from DQ, but I must respond with a big Yes! I've suggested some of his novels here in Greats, as the British say, Great Books, in USA. This summer I re-read the 5 or 6 novels called the
Parliamentary novels, and many others are also wonderful. Trollope is a fantastic author.
Here we have also been having days of storms, which keep me and my hound from our daily walks. I haven't posted much, but am enjoying everyone's words. More anon ...
Deems
July 6, 2006 - 08:31 am
Go to the fourth image down to see Don Q. in bed.
In bed Hats--The "hound" in question is in the prologue, p. 456 in Grossman. I didn't notice it either. Grossman just uses DOG which is maybe a little more generic than hound, but not much.
Bad day here. Problems with back. Must get to pool and off computer.
Maryal
JoanK
July 6, 2006 - 11:28 am
Yes, El Greco is from Toledo -- here is his "View from Toledo". Click on the thumbnail picture to see a larger one, and better colors.
VIEW FROM TOLEDO I've been lucky enough to see the original painting, as well as a number of other El Greco's. I don't think any print could capture the magic of his paintings: this one in particular..
JoanK
July 6, 2006 - 11:30 am
For the first two years on Seniornet, I had to keep a cheatsheet by my computer telling me how to post links. Now, after doing many hundreds, I don't always have to look at it!
Joan Pearson
July 6, 2006 - 12:27 pm
Mippy, I'd love to do Trollope here in the Great Books. We came close during the last selection with his Barchester Towers. We'll see. There's been so much written about his work lately...films too.
Sheila - have you read Barchester Towers?
I came across this earlier today when searching for Orbaneja's rooster painint... and thought of you and Flaubert:
"The role of Cervantes’s Don Quixote in the overall literary development of Gustave Flaubert is one of the most important, and least studied, examples of influence and imitation in the history of the novel...
The presence of the Quixote in Flaubert’s imagination can be traced back to his childhood. When he was a young boy, his favorite pastime was to have Don Quixotte read to him aloud, in an abridged French edition edited by Florian. Once he had learned how to read for himself, he collected other editions of the novel, and the impact of these readings is made evident in a letter he wrote in 1832, when he was only ten years old, to his friend Ernest Chevalier:
'I know I had told you before that I wanted to be a playwright, but on second thought, I’ve decided against it . . . I have decided instead to become a novelist and I’ve already got some ideas for my first books. I’ll write about Cardenio, about Dorotea, and one about Ill-Advised Curiosity. (1)
For the first time, he began to plan every line meticulously and to lay out a blueprint for each part of his new project with enormous care. His new approach to writing reminds us of the example of the painter Orbaneja in Don Quixote—an example that must have been quite important to Cervantes as it is included not once but twice in the book. Orbaneja is a sloppy artist, and when he sets out to paint, he lets himself be guided by inspiration alone. Thus, when he paints a portrait of a rooster, the painting looks nothing at all like a rooster. In fact, it is an unrecognizable figure, to such an extent that the artist has to hang a sign on the picture saying “rooster,” or nobody would have any idea of what it’s supposed to be. Flaubert & Don Quixote
Joan Pearson
July 6, 2006 - 12:43 pm
Thank you for "Toledo",
JoanK! How are you enjoying the sun that's drying up all the rain? Crazy weather, huh? The weekend should be nice from what I hear. Don't miss the rain, don't miss the humidity either!
By the way, the formula for copying urls from other websites is included in the heading here under "Related Links" in case anyone wants to try it.>Toledo...the toledo cap!
Maryal, that's what I'm talking about! Thank you! (Good luck with the hydrotherapy!)
I wasn't looking for "pizazz,
Hats...just something comfy to wear in bed while recuperating. Our Don seems to be recovering nicely, n'est-ce pas? Amazing what a little chicken soup and poached pigeon will do!
Does it appear to you that Cervantes is saying that mental instability is caused by poor or insufficient nutrition? The concept is suggested again in Chapter 2 in the asylum. Is this an old idea, or do you think there is something to it?
I was surprised when Don Q. picked up on the parallel to his own mental state and the university student who was an inmate at the asylum. He seems sharp enough! Did the chaplain have a legitimate reason for changing his mind and leaving the canon law student in the asylum?
hats
July 6, 2006 - 01:52 pm
Ahhh, the Don looks like he could use the rest. You are right, JoanP. The word is "comfy," not a time for a hat with pizzazz. The Don does seem to be resting peacefully and "recovering nicely.
JoanK, that painting is beautiful. I could really see it with the closer and wider view.
ALF
July 6, 2006 - 05:21 pm
Thanks everyone. Honestly, it's right at my finger tips at home and being away I was determined to try to get it. I didn't know that it was above in one of the links. Thanks Joan.
Off to the camp again in about 10 minutes for 5 days. No TVs, no tele, nothing but games, kids and a VCR for movies. I shall return Tuesday AM. Ladies, please keep the Don in bed until I return. I fear for him (and you.)
1amparo
July 6, 2006 - 06:08 pm
They really are lovely to see! Maryal that is just a gorgeous set of prints! I like DQ with his patched eye in bed. Doesn't he look like a kid who knows yucky medicine is coming his way?
JoanK, I have been few times to Toledo. I have walked from the Alcazar at the very top of the hill on the right, past through the Jewish old area to the left of the Alcazar and Cathedral and down across the river. It is a beautiful medieval town; narrow little streets and picturesque square. El Greco old home, not far from the Alcazar, is now a museum, very small and dark.
I could spend hours looking at some of the old doors in the gardens of the Cathedral, where once upon a time the workers and their families used to live in the community of the Cathedral: Jobs passed down from father to son...
But that was many years ago; when Toledo used to be the Capital City of Spain. Still a very charming old town.
Amparo
marni0308
July 6, 2006 - 08:41 pm
Maryal: Thanks for the wonderful prints!
JoanK: I love that El Greco painting, too, and have seen it in NYC. It's at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. What a great museum that is. The National Gallery of Art in Washington D.C. has a wonderful El Greco collection:
http://www.nga.gov/cgi-bin/psearch?Request=S&imageset=1&Person=13100 Hats: He does make strange elongated bodies, but so interesting. And the darkness and skies in his paintings. So fabulous.
Traude S
July 6, 2006 - 08:42 pm
The links are wonderful and greatly appreciated. DQ is alive in all the representations made of h im through the centuries.
People did wear a woolen cap in bed because bedrooms were often unheated at that time, and even a few centuries thereafter.
It was a bad day here as well, not only because of my arthritic back but also because I miss my car. It developed a problem a week ago. The garage was closed from Friday to Tuesday, busy yesterday. I took the car in early this morning and was given a ride home. I stayed off the phone, off the computer (am on dial-up) and waited for news. In vain.
At 2 p.m. I called. The cause of the problem had not yet been determined and the car had to stay overnight. Gritting teeth ...
As HATS said, Grossman refers to "hound".
I find it interesting, even a bit baffling, that certain structural parts of Parts One and Two, e.g. the Prologues, are handled with a surprising degree of independence, and differently (some excluded, some included, some having different nmes/designations, and that includes minor details interpreed differently) in the versions we are using.
Even the spelling of names varies, I've noticed.
That is true for the name of the Moorish author whose name Grossman gives as Cide (the equivalent of señor) Hamete (=the Arabic name Hamid) Benengeli. His name was mentioned in Chapter IX of Part I, pg. 67, Grossman translation.
When DQ first decides to become a knight errant, he is fifty and considered old. Ten years have passed. Cervantes is in poor health when he begins Part II. So it is to be expected that DQ also shows a certain weariness after all this time. But there is no question that he will sally forth one last time (or there would be no Part II).
Incidentally, I believe we have to watch Sansón Carrasco. Grossman describes him as showing "signs of a mischievous nature and a fondness for tricks and jokes." His profuse greeting of DQ sounds overdone and suspiciously insincere. Could this young man have an ulterior motive, per chance?
More tomorrow.
marni0308
July 6, 2006 - 08:59 pm
I enjoyed the Don's quote in Chpt. 1 when he says to the curate: "...out with your scruple, than; for scruples of conscience are very uncomfortable companions."
I got a kick out of the scene when Sancho visits the Don in Chpt. 2, after fighting his way past the niece and the housekeeper. This is one of the funnier chapters in the book. The housekeeper calls Sancho "that swag-bellied lurcher, thou bag of mischief and bundle of malice" and Sancho calls her "Housekeeper of Satan." The niece calls Sancho "thou potbellied greedy glutton." Cervantes writes "The curate and barber were highly entertained with this dialogue..." So was I!
I loved the bedchamber conversation between the Don and Sancho. The Don quotes from the Latin: "When the head aches, all the members are affected." He compares himself to the head and Sancho, as his servant, is part of him and so they share in their sufferings. Sancho says, "That may be; but when I, as a member, was tossed in a blanket, my head sat peaceably on the other side of the wall, and beheld me vaulting in the air, without feeling the least uneasiness; and since the members are obliged to ache with the head, I think it is but just, that the head should ache with the members."
The Don tells Sancho he was more afflicted in mind than Sancho was in body as a result of the blanket tossing. Then he changes the subject.
The subject of the blanket tossing keeps coming up. It was such a hilarious scene when it happened even though it was a traumatic situation for poor Sancho who keeps remembering it. But I think that whenever it is brought up, Cervantes adds to the humor.
marni0308
July 6, 2006 - 09:07 pm
Traude: I'm glad you brought up the author Cide Hamete Benengeli. There was another funny part in Chpt. 2 when Sancho refers to Cide as "Cide Hamete Bean-and-Jelly."
My footnote says "One of Sancho's mispronunciations of Cide Hamete Benengeli, which reflects his customary inclusion of food."
I'm seeing more now of Sancho's appearance with a big belly and his enjoyment of food. Dore's paintings of Sancho certainly show this appearance.
hats
July 7, 2006 - 01:33 am
JoanP, you asked about the Don's mental health and how the housekeeper, niece and others are caring for him. I think he is being given a lot of tender loving care: good food, bedrest, conversation.
Amparo, I wish you had some photos of the doors of the cathedrals. I am sure each one is unique and beautiful.
Truade, thank you for reminding me the Don is no longer age fifty. I had forgotten ten years have passed. He is older now. Surely, his behavior will change in some way. The Don is so lovable, I think. His intentions are not to hurt anybody. He just wants the world to be a better place. That is his quest, I think.
Maryal and Marni thank you for the links. I love El Greco's paintings. I am going to put the link in favorites.
I have a Dore. I am always pages behind in it. I don't remember to look at it along with the book. I really love the Dore. I will never get rid of it. That way I can go back and revisit places with The Don again.
Alf, See you Tuesday.
1amparo
July 7, 2006 - 03:08 am
10 years passed??? From Cervantes writing the end of volume I till he finished volume II, yes! However, the second volume continues the story
ONE MONTH from when DQ and Sancho returned home at the end of volume I, therefore DQ is only few weeks older not more.
Amparo
1amparo
July 7, 2006 - 04:28 am
DQ in bedroom plus family & friends DQ sitting up in bed, around him servant, priest, niece & barber.
hats
July 7, 2006 - 04:35 am
Amparo, thank you for keeping me lined up with the weeks and years. I can get lost. I love Don Q in the bedroom. I think he is enjoying the friendly attention.
Joan Pearson
July 7, 2006 - 05:09 am
Have fun, Andy - my kind of vacation! It might be difficult to keep DonQ in bed, he seems remarkably improved. I did notice that he is not gung-ho about resuming his knightly duties, however. He doesn't even bring it up until the priest does. Amparo - you found Dore's illustration! Oh my, that's a wonderful depiction of the bedside conversation - and there's that Toledo cap!
The priest, the barber and the Don spoke for a long time at his bedside just like this, reconstructing the affairs of state. Never once did Don Q. bring up the matter of knight-errantry. You had to wonder if he hadn't sufficiently recovered to have forgotten all about it - until the priest tricked him into revealing his plan to go to the king. He doesn't seem to have an inclination to go roaming aimlessly looking for adventure again - as he did before.
It's Sancho who seems to have recovered sufficiently and is eager to get back out there and earn that island! Have you detected a change in Sancho? Quicker to speak his mind? Less boot-scraping?
Marni, do you see Sancho mispronounce Cide Hamete Benengeli's name as "Berenjena" Raffel's footnote "berenjena=eggplant." I'm seeing Sancho's frequent mispronunciations as an emphasis on the fact that he has no education...does't know his grammar, but love the way he doesn't kowtow to those who do. Speaks right up and makes his point. I liked this line in chapter 3, which seems to describe our Sancho very aptly - "The wisest characer in a play is a fool, because he who pretends to be a simpleton must never be one."
Is he a fool for believing that an island is in his future? Or is he wiser than he is letting on? (Those hundred gold pieces were nothing to be disregarded at this time, were they? Off course Juana/Theresa Panza won't complain if he sallies forth again.)
Marni, Sancho learns his lesson from the Don's "sermon" on the head and the limbs being part of one body...and will use it in the future. The blanket tossing is a nagging painful memory for him. At first, it didn't seem to be as painful, certainly not as bloody as some of the other squirmishes he was involved in. But maybe the memory was a psychological wound - everyone laughing at him. Personal pride seems to be an important issue here for all the characters. Just like today. For all of us. Cervantes keeps prodding him at this point. I LOVED it when he defined his role as squire for the upcoming adventure. He's even stipulating the terms of their "contract" now.
Joan Pearson
July 7, 2006 - 05:19 am
Traudee, car trouble is very bad...but staying off line waiting for a call that never comes is really torture! I'm glad you were able to get in last night. You bring up Cervantes'depiction of this "college graduate" - Samson Carrasco. I got such a kick out of this character's depiction...as you note, "signs of a mischievous nature and a fondness for tricks and jokes. Did you notice Cervantes refer to his "well-turned phrases"- did you sense that Cervantes was describing himself?
You suspected Samson as having ulterior motives? hmmm He is certainly the bearer of some rather shocking news, isn't he? Much has gone on in the intervening month! He tells our Don the entire account of the previous expedition has already been printed! He seems to be joking (deceiving) him when he says that more than 12,000 copies had already been printed...translated all over the world in as many different languages. Didn't you smile at that? What would Cervantes do if he could see how this has come true?
Thanks, Amparo, for reminding us that ten years have passed since Cervantes penned volume I... Hats-although Don Q has only been off the trail in his bed for a month, I detect an older, wiser, more cautious man too. It's easy to confuse the Don and the author, isn't it? Cervantes' aging has affected his characterization of the Don, I think. As you pointed out earlier, he ís also more interested in how others regard his knightly accomplishments...just as Cervantes seems to be interested in how his readers reacted to his Volume I.
What did you think of the way he's addressed the criticism and uses Volume II to address some of it? Shall we look more closely at how Don Q. responds to what Cide Hamete Benengeli's has written? We already know that he doesn't trust him...his being a Moor and all. It appears that Benengeli will continue to pen Volume II - convenient to point out to censors that the Moor is lying as Moors do whenever the need arises...
Deems
July 7, 2006 - 07:58 am
Good morning, ALL. It’s off to the pool and some walking for me since my back is still in less than good shape, but first. . . .
marni, your translation is good. Here’s Grossman for the opening exchange between the housekeeper and Sancho:
The housekeeper says to Sancho, “I hope you choke on those damned insulas, Sancho, you wretch, and what are insulas? Something to eat, you greedy glutton.” Sancho calls the woman, “Housekeeper from hell.”
Thanks for that illustration of Don Q in bed surrounded by his “friends,” Amparo. The good gentleman looks tall even in bed and seems to be wearing the same style cap.
And yes, Amparo, only a short time has passed since DQ was brought home. Thank heaven, he hasn’t been confined with that niece and housekeeper and the barber and the priest for years and years. Cervantes picks the story up where he left off, and Joan P, you are right too, Cervantes must have changed in the intervening time and that change would be reflected in his characters. I detect a more serious Quixote in these first chapters.
Plus, Don Quixote was a huge hit. Not everything Quixote says about fame is untrue.
Grossman has a footnote in Chapter 3 (475):
“Part I had been printed three times in Madrid (twice in 1605, once in 1608), twice in Lisbon (1605), twice in Valencia (1605), twice in Brussels (1607, 1611), and once in Milan (1610) when Cervantes probably wrote these lines. It did not appear in Barcelona until 1617 (when the first and second parts were printed together for the first time) or in Antwerp until 1673 (it is assumed that Cervantes wrote Antwerp instead of Brussels). All of these editions are in Spanish; the first translation of the book (into English, by Thomas Shelton) appeared in London in 1612.”
That 1612 edition in English is the one Shakespeare may have known of. Shakespeare died in 1616.
One other part of this footnote strikes me—“when Cervantes probably wrote these lines” following the printing in Milan in 1610. This information must come from Cervantine scholars who have attempted to determine exactly when Cervantes began to write Part II. If true, there would be a five or six year gap in his life between the parts.
Cervantes knows something he didn’t know when he published Part I. Part II will definitely be read and will be published in many places. He must have felt some pride, don’t you think?
Maryal
JoanK
July 7, 2006 - 12:17 pm
JOANP: "It's easy to confuse the Don and the author, isn't it? Cervantes' aging has affected his characterization of the Don, I think".
It seems to me I definitely detect a difference in Part II, not so much in just DQ and Sancho, but in the whole tone of the writing. I think you've hit the nail on the head, JoanP, Cervantes is more mature and so is his writing. I find it (so far) much funnier. For the first time, I'm reading ahead and looking forward to it.
I've been trying to put my finger on what the difference is, but haven't been able to do so.
A head Slap -- did I call the painting "View from Toledo" instead of "View of Toledo"? For some reason I'm always making that mistake.
Phyll
July 7, 2006 - 01:04 pm
Perhaps I am being too cynical but it seems to me that Don Q. is about as crazy as a fox. And very selective in his so-called insanity, too. He only seems to bring out the insanity act when it most serves his purpose. I think the long ride back home in the cage sobered him considerably and now that he has spent some time recuperating in his comfortable bed he is a little reluctant to "sally" forth on another adventure but he is forced to because his reputation has grown so wide spread and he must live up to that. He is hoist by his own petard, so to speak.
Sancho is the wiser of the two but he is still being lured by the promise of the riches that Don Q. keeps dangling in front of him. Every time Sancho begins to question the wisdom of this whole thing the Don plays his trump card and dangles the carrot in front of him and Sancho is once again drawn into the game. He tries to make sure that everyone understands that he is not a fighter but is only there to take care of his Master's needs. For that he expects his due reward but I think he is beginning to have doubts that when, and if, he is finally given this illusive island he will really be up to the job of governing it, after all.
Joan Pearson
July 7, 2006 - 03:15 pm
He must have felt some pride, don’t you think? Oh yes, I do, Maryal. That's probably why he was able to reply to his critics that every book, no matter how bad, has some good in it. He knows his readers loved the first volume and found much good in it. Confound the critics...who never wrote anything in their lives! Do you believe that a good literary critic has to be a writer first? Does it seem that Cervantes believes this is so?
I know what you mean, JoanK...I can't put my finger on what is different here either. Perhaps it is the dialogue. Don Q. doesn't seem to be "posturing"...Sancho speaks his mind. THe story seems to have a life of its own...we're not being told what and why, we are part of it? I'm not saying what I mean. Maybe we need to get a bit further into it. But in these opening chapters, Cervantes seems more comfortable with his story, not working so hard to make his points and explain himself.
Phyll! - you won't believe this, but I was thinking of you just before I came on! Am finishing my second Irish clan sweater...sewing up the seams (hate that part - must learn to do it all in one piece as you do!)...and remembering how much help I needed from you and Bubble doing the first one!
I felt the same way you do - about Sancho and the island being dangled in front of him as a carrot. But now into chapters three and four, I'm starting to see a different Sancho.
First of all, we discover that he brought home real "booty" from the previous adventure. How much would 100 gold pieces be worth to a peasant back then? I'm guessing a small fortune. I'd be willing to bet that Juana/Teresa Panza would much rather another haul like this over an island any day. Also, I'm not seeing Don Q. in such a hurry to go out again...it seems to be Sancho who is urging him on, doesn't it? And the nerve! Where does he get the nerve to stipulate that Don will do all the bloody fighting, risking life and limb and Sancho will become governor of an island for keeping his clothes nice and neat?
Good to see you back in the saddle, Phyll, knitting needles and all!
Here are two questions for you, Amparo...Cidi, Sidi= Sir - but how is it spelled in Spanish? We're wondering why different translations provide these two spellings. How would YOU spell it?
Then there's the instance of the university student referring to "My Lady Dona Dulcinea del Toboso." Sancho corrects him - "I've never heard My Lady Dulcinea called dona, only Lady Dulcinea... What are the two Spanish words and is there a difference in meaning? (The university graduate doesn't see any...)
Deems
July 7, 2006 - 06:49 pm
A brand new character, the newly graduated bachelor, Sanson Carrasco, recently arrived from Salamanca where he took his degree, is introduced.
Goodness, Sanson does go on and on about the response to the book that describes the adventures of DQ and Sancho!
DQ can hardly believe that such a book exists (since it takes time to write a book) and "The blood of the enemies he had slain was not yet dry on the blade of his sword." That's wonderful! And true. There hasn't been time for a book to have been written and published since he has been resting at home only a month or less than that if Sancho still has welts as we will see.
DQ explains the book to himself as the result of enchantment (that is such a handy excuse, isn't it?)
And yet, it appears there IS a history of his adventures.
After Sanson begins to recount what is in the book, DQ starts asking what about HIM? Which of his adventures are most praised?
Sanson says the author left nothing out, even the "capering" of Sancho in the blanket (and the blanket incident does get funnier every time it is mentioned, doesn't it?)
And Joan P, looks like you are acute in your observation that Sancho seems to have "risen" in status since he now notes "it is one thing to write as a poet and another to write as a historian: the poet can recount or sing about things not as they were, but as they should have been, and the historian must write about them not as they should nave been, but as they were, without adding or subtracting anything from the truth."
That's a pretty good observation, I think. And it belongs to Sancho. The topic being discussed is the many beatings which DQ suffered and DQ's observation that some of them might have been left out.
Sancho says that although he would like to forget the beatings he took, "the welts won't let me, because they're still fresh on my ribs," and we have another indication that it hasn't been long that he's been home.
Here's my favorite part of the chapter. DQ tells Sancho:
"Be quiet, Sancho," said Don Quixote, "and do not interrupt the bachelor, whom I implore to continue telling me what is said about me in this history."
C'mon, Sancho, enough about the blanket and your ribs, let's hear more about ME. Let's talk about ME and my adventures which happened to ME.
That's just wonderful!
Maryal
1amparo
July 7, 2006 - 07:25 pm
JoanK. Cide. Remember the
C = th? Only those who cannot pronounce "c" will write "s".
"Doña" is a titled only rich or scholars have. Sancho
knows Dulcinea is neither hence...
Here are prints by Doré on
ALL DQ adventures, scroll down and click on whichever link for illustration you wish to see once page's up:
DQ by Doré - volumes I & II Amparo
Traude S
July 7, 2006 - 08:42 pm
Cervantes, DQ and Sancho are inextricably linked, I believe; members of one body, created by one mind.
We are all aware of a subtle change in tone, a more somber feeling, perhaps a hint of sadness (or worse) to come. Sancho has changed and will utter thoughts that astonish those around him. It's a surprise for the reader too.
AMPARO, as always thank you for providing the definitive Spanish word(s). We are fortunate to have your help.
JOAN P, Grossman has footnotes about the currency at the time of Cervantes, and the value of the respective denominations -- let me try find them.
kidsal
July 7, 2006 - 11:38 pm
I believe Sancho's feelings were hurt by DQ's not helping him when he was being tossed in the blanket. He seems to believe he was entitled to the money because of the beatings.
1amparo
July 8, 2006 - 12:09 am
I am determined to change names: my post 104 was meant for JoanP. I have since long ago learnt to accept my inefficiencies. My apologies to both.
I had a friend who told me was changing his birth certificate to read "Miguel" (as I would call him at times) instead of his true one "Manuel".... it is mortifying!
Amparo
Joan Pearson
July 8, 2006 - 09:36 am
Hope you are enjoying your Saturday! Bruce is away for a softball tournament, so I get to do my own thing all weekend! I have more time to spend with you...and our Don.
Amparo, thank you so much for: the most complete collection of Dore's illustrations I've seen on the Internet. I've added this treasure - (the link) to our heading - under "Related Links" - do you all see it? Fun to go back and forth and check on Dore as we move through the chapters.
Cidi - let's assume we are all pronouncing the "c" correctly (who's to know if we're not? ) and use Cidi when referring to Sir Berengeli.
Dona - If only the rich and scholars use this title and Sancho knows it, why doesn't he question Don Quixote's title. Does he think of him as a scholar?
JoanK, JoanP, JoanR - please don't be concerned about mixing your Joans here! Even Cervantes is doing it...with Juana and Teresa!
If Manuel changed name to "Miguel"- you'd probably start calling him "Manuel!"
If we forgive the Joans, you forgive my occasional "Pancho" for Sancho Panza - and Maryal's "Sanson" - (unless that's how Grossman has it?)
Deems
July 8, 2006 - 10:20 am
Yes, that's Grossman's version SANSON with an accent over the O. I assume that's how it is in Spanish. The name in English is Samson.
Good thing you'll be here, Joan P (or K or G or. . . .) because the summer plays have begun at Shepherdstown. Tickets for Saturdays for the remainder of the month. I'll provide a brief review later. These plays are all brand new American plays by young (mostly) playwrights. Very exciting and growing every year.
I went back and reread Grossman's translator's preface. It means more now that we have finished Part I.
Here's a brief quote. I think she has accomplished her mission to make Cervantes come alive:
"And his writing is a marvel: it gives off sparks and flows like honey. Cervantes's style is so artful it seems absolutely natural and inevitable; his irony is sweet-natured, his sensibility sophisticated, compassionate, and humorous. If my translation works at all, the reader should keep turning the pages, smiling a good deal, periodically bursting into laughter, and impatiently waiting for the next synonym. . ."
Grossman also says, "I believe that my primary obligation as a literary translator is to recreate for the reader in English the experience of the reader in Spanish. . . .When Cervantes wrote Don Quixote, his language was not archaic or quaint. He wrote in a crackling, up-to-date Spanish that was an intrinsic part of his time (this is instantly apparent when he has Don Quixote, in transports of knightly madness, speak in the old-fashioned idion of the novels of chivalry), a modern language that both reflected and helped to shape the way people experienced the world."
Grossman's translation reflects Don Quixote's regression into old-fashioned language whenever he describes the exploits of prior knights, real and fictional.
I really admire this translation. I wish I were bilingual so I could compare it to the original.
Joan Pearson
July 8, 2006 - 10:35 am
Thanks for that, Maryal - makes me want to read Grossman and Raffel side by side. (Can't learn Spanish fast enough. Glad I asked about "Sanson"...I have not excuse for "Pancho" - except that Raffel did slip once in chapter 48.) and yes, I'd like to hear more about the plays. I've heard about them, but never gone. Are you planning to go?
Was Cervantes a "poet" or an "historian"? You've provided Sancho's definition of each. I asked if your translations used the term "poet" because it seems that Sancho is looking at the account that went into print as "a history" according to the definition he provides. An historian "must write about things not as they should have been, but as they were, without adding and subtracting anything from the truth.".
Can the term, "poet" also include fiction writers? I KNOW that Don Quixote is NOT an historical account, despite its title. But this novel is considered to be the "first modern novel." I want to know why. I guess that means, I want to know more about the fiction before Don Quixote.
We know there were popular books of knight errantry being printed at the time. They seem to have been a cross between history and fiction - embellished fiction, perhaps?
Traudee detects a "somber tone, almost sadness in this Volume. I'm not seeing that yet, Traudee - BUT I do see confusion and some genuine regret that the beatings and defeats were included in the printed version Samson is telling them about. Don Q. is disappointed, probably embarrassed and wishes that these were omitted.
Remember when he told Sancho that he wanted to see Samson to hear more about the book? He said he was expecting that a book of knight errantry would be "magnificent"..."lofty", as were all of the books of knight errantry he had read before. This book is certainly not what he expected.
He seems at a loss as to what he should do next. How can he impress Dulcinea with such a report in which he looks, well, he looks ridiculous? I found it sad when he had to ask this young graduate student what he should do. Samson suggests that he go off to Zaragossa to a jousting tournament. Does this sound like the annual Maryland Renaissance Festival you were describing earlier, JoanK? A jousting exhibition? Or do you think real jousting took place in Zaragossa? I suppose Samson suggested this because he thought that if our knight could defeat some of the other knightly contestants, this could be included in the next book.
I also thought it was sad that our Don had to ask the university student how to write a goodbye letter to Dulcinea. Traudee, I guess I'm seeing a more vulnerable Quixote here after all.
Sancho tells him that this was an historical account and so nothing should be left out. Kidsal - about the blanket tossing we keep hearing about...Sancho's feelings were hurt, his pride. The memory of it still pains him - more so than any other beating he has endured. This is the only one he talks about, isn't it? Sancho has feelings - and pride. Not just nobles and the high-born. Cervantes seems to be saying quite a bit in this one example alone.
ps. I noticed something else in Chapter III - maybe you did too? Remember when we were questioning Cervantes' readership? Did you notice that Samson reported that young boys, grown men, and old men enjoyed the book. It was so clear to them they didn't need footnotes. What did you think when you read that?
Deems
July 8, 2006 - 10:50 am
Joan P--I'm not the one who mentioned jousting at the Renaissance Festival (though I did attend one year, saw no jousting), but I have visited a jousting tournament over in Southern Maryland, years and years ago. Men on horses with blunted lance thingies aiming at targets. Very interesting, but mostly I gawked at the beautiful HORSES.
I thought the distinction between poet and historian was interesting because at the time, there really wasn't a name for a person who wrote fictional prose. Poets had long celebrated the great deeds of heroes (think Homer) and a lot of those chivalric romances which so turned Quixote's head were also written in poetry. (Think of Tennyson all those years later writing Idyls of the King, all about King Arthur and company.)
The writer of the book in question, the moor, Cide Hamete Benengeli, was an historian because he was writing the "true" adventures of Don Quixote.
There wasn't a word yet, I don't think, to describe Cervantes. He was a writer, but not a poet, or in this case a playwright.
But he did write any number of plays. He was just unfortunate to be in competition with the two great Spanish playwrights, Lope de Vega and Calderon de la Barca.
I think he learned how to create scenes--and they seem so real to me as I read them--from writing plays.
But there weren't any writers at the time who were called "novelists" I don't think. Cervantes invented the novel as we now think of it.
Time to get ready for the trip to W. Virginia.
Maryal
Mippy
July 8, 2006 - 02:40 pm
Interesting aside about
Renaissance Festivals:
I've been to them in 3 or 4 states, and Maryland's was the best by far. The actors knew their characters' backgrounds, and we had some good conversations, just walking around talking to the actors.
That didn't happen at all in either Wisconsin or Florida (cannot remember the fourth.)
My husband told one young lady he was the Duke of Cambridge (as we lived on Cambridge Place, then) and she said, ohhh, a real Duke?
Regarding jousting, which we saw in FL ~
It must have been horrendous to approach an opponent looking through a slit in a visor. Aaaarrrgghh.
It makes you understand why DQ liked the barber's basin, without a visor.
Maryal ~ Enjoy the plays and do tell us all about them!
1amparo
July 8, 2006 - 06:56 pm
In Spanish orthography words ending "---ón, ---ún" this last vocal will have an accent; hence Sansón. If I am lazy or in a hurry I tend to "eat" the accents!
JoanP Thank you for your graciousness. Your:
If only the rich and scholars use this title and Sancho knows it, why doesn't he question Don Quixote's title. Does he think of him as a scholar? But of course! DQ could read and write, therefore on those times, and to illiterate Sancho, he was a scholar, whether DQ ever attended university I don't remember Cervantes letting us know.
Cheers.
Amparo
hats
July 9, 2006 - 02:10 am
Hi Amparo, I am glad you are here. It's like having a part of Spain with us on the journey. I am really enjoying the trip with Don Q and Sancho.
I have been reading back over the posts. I don't want to miss any important information that will add to my understanding of the book.
JoanP, I don't have the answer to your question. I would love to know the answer. I also would like to know about the "fiction before Don Quixote."
JoanP's question in quotes.
Can the term, "poet" also include fiction writers? I KNOW that Don Quixote is NOT an historical account, despite its title. But this novel is considered to be the "first modern novel." I want to know why. I guess that means, I want to know more about the fiction before Don Quixote.
hats
July 9, 2006 - 02:17 am
Maryal, thank you. Your answer is exciting and very interesting. I am a bit slow in taking all of this information in and holding it. It's like learning Literary History.
Maryal's Post in quotes.
"I thought the distinction between poet and historian was interesting because at the time, there really wasn't a name for a person who wrote fictional prose. Poets had long celebrated the great deeds of heroes (think Homer) and a lot of those chivalric romances which so turned Quixote's head were also written in poetry. (Think of Tennyson all those years later writing Idyls of the King, all about King Arthur and company.) "
hats
July 9, 2006 - 02:39 am
Don Q continues to remake events to his own liking. At first, Don Q calls the Moor, Cide, a lying trickster like all Moors. After Don Q learns the history is filled with his impressive deeds, he calls the Moor a "wise" Moor. That part made me laugh.
On a serious note, I am afraid to post because the second volume is, I find, more confusing than the first volume because of the appearance of a writer named Cide Hamete Berenjena. I feel a bit embarrassed about getting confused. I did feel relief to see JoanP's first question for chapter iii.
Is this way of writing some type of closure for what Cervantes suffered from the thievery of his manuscript in "real" life? Is Cervantes using Cide to assuage his anger? Some say writing can heal our emotions.
I have a feeling that the second volume isn't just to entertain the reader. I think it is going to be a journal to heal Cervantes' inner demons. Like Traude, I do feel an underlying sadness or maybe seriousness. It's like in this part the Don and Sancho are trying t get everything straightened out. It's like they have come home and are trying to put the memories of their journey in order. It is a time for assessing and reassessing. Taking to the road again, is not as important as the first time. Why redo what has already been done? I am beginning to wonder if they will go back on the road.
1amparo
July 9, 2006 - 04:17 am
Your:
"I am beginning to wonder if they will go back on the road". Stay tuned and keep reading, you will not regret it, mate. The best is yet to come!
Amparo
hats
July 9, 2006 - 04:59 am
Amparo, I can't wait, mate.
Joan Pearson
July 9, 2006 - 11:40 am
Super Sunday, everyone! The rest of the world seems to be tuned in to the World Cup match between France and Italy. Are you? This will be quick...Italy just scored. It is now 1-1.
Hats, don't be embarrassed about getting confused about Cide Hamete Berenjena. Back in Volume I, Cervantes created this character to narrate the story. It seemed a smart move to make him a Moor - "the lying Moor" could be blamed for anything uncomplimentary Cervantes wrote about the crown or the church. Cervantes was able to hide behind this fictionalized character he had created, escaping condemnation by the Inquisition fathers.
I thought Don Q.'s reaction to some of the criticism was quite funny - and can hear Cervantes voice blaming mistakes on "printing errors." Did you see that?
"After Don Q learns the history is filled with his impressive deeds, he calls the Moor a "wise" Moor." I missed that, Hats! It is funny.
That's a good question - is Cervantes using Cidi Benengeli to assuage his anger following the theft of his own book?
Mippy, does it sound as if Samson is suggesting the dynamic duo go to Zaragossa to participate in contests of skill...reenactments of jousing of old? Oh my, can't you just see our poor old knight wearing the barber's basin as he confronts an opponent looking through a slit in a visor? I'm afraid everyone will be laughing at this poor old knight!
Maryal, when you mentioned Cervantes' plays and the drama of his time, my thoughts went immediately to Shapespeare. We've got tickets to his "Love's Labour's Lost" this month. It seems that Shakespeare's plays were based either on monarchs of his time (Henrys/Richards or from borrowed old tales - many of them Italian. His plots were not his own, were not based on his own imagination or experience. He built on them. I'm imagining that this was the case in Spanish theatre at the time too.
Joan Pearson
July 9, 2006 - 11:43 am
Hats - "Taking to the road again, is not as important as the first time. Why redo what has already been done?" I think that Sancho did quite well his first time out. Even another pocketfull of gold coins would be worth going out again. IOur Don doesn't seem quite so eager though!
Chapter 5 let's us in on a domestic conversation between Sancho and his wife. Can anyone figure out why Teresa Panza is complaining again about having to take her husband's name in marriage? It's as if this is a new requirement.
Teresa Panza seems to be okay with Sancho's return to the trail if he brings home more coins, but wants nothing to do with the governorship of an island. Why not? Why is she so concerned at the possiblility that Sancho might marry her daughter off to a nobleman.
boookworm
July 9, 2006 - 06:18 pm
Joan--thanks for the very interesting article on Flaubert and Don Quixote. Madame Bovary, like Don Q, has been crazed by reading too many romance novels which makes her find life as the wife of a country doctor unbearably boring and she fatally searches to find the romance found in books for her own life. Today no one goes insane from reading books, but many are brain dead from TV.
The Way We Live Now was the first Trollope that I have read despite doing most of my reading in 19th century European novels. Trollope would be fun for the group to read--it is much faster going than Don. Read TWWLN in 3 weeks while reading several other books at the same time. One thing liked in the Trollope was that it didn’t have the totally pure characters, but they are all shades of gray as in real life. However, Cervantes is a much more important author.
marni0308
July 9, 2006 - 08:02 pm
The conversations between Sancho and the Don certainly are different in Part II. It seems that Sancho has become more educated and more of an intellectual. I think we're hearing much more from him, too.
I seem to have missed anything regarding a letter the Don has asked Sanson to write to say goodby to Dulcinea. I also missed that they're going to a jousting contest. How did I miss these things, I wonder???
I watched the soccer match today. Pretty exciting stuff! That's the first final World Cup I've ever watched. I'm hooked. Too bad about what happened with the French team captain towards the end.
hats
July 10, 2006 - 12:35 am
Marni, I think Sancho is definitely different too. Sancho says his motives are totally pure. He wants to serve Don Q in a better way. Sancho also says that insulas aren't important to him. If he receives a governorship, fine. Then, God has blessed him. If he doesn't receive a governorship, that's alright too. I don't know if I believe Sancho's lofty words about not receiving an insula. I believe deep, deep down in his heart Sancho really wants a governorship.
Sancho is talking a lot, more than Don Q. Are his words believable? Will he stick to his guns when push comes to shove? Maybe Cervantes is using words that don't fit Sancho's character so that the reader will keep his eye on him as well as Don Q. In the first volume, I think, my eyes and ears stayed opened and glued on Don Q. This time I see a two partner deal. I've got to watch both these guys closely.
Amparo, you are right again. Sancho claims the next journey will top the last. Sancho says the translator will have more than enough deeds to translate. I don't know what to expect this time. I can't wait for the Don and Sancho to hop back on their mounts and get going.
"My master and I will give him such an abundance of adventures and so many different deeds that he'll be able to write not just a second part, but a hundred more parts."
Bookworm, somehow I missed the Madame Bovary post made by Joan. I will have to go back and look for it.
hats
July 10, 2006 - 01:06 am
In chapters iv and v I seem to see two different Sancho. At one time, Sancho says one thing. At another time, he says something totally different. Sancho's words are driving me crazy. Who really is Sancho???
Mippy
July 10, 2006 - 05:44 am
Hats ~ I don't think Sancho knows who he is, himself.
He is driven by his wife's demands, and by the urging of DQ to go back out on adventures. What a conflict for our poor Sancho!
Joan Pearson
July 10, 2006 - 05:59 am
Good Monday morning! I love Mondays...the week is just beginning and I always have such high hopes for accomplishing this impossibly long to-do list. But it's Monday, it's early and so far, no interruptions!
Sheila - Trollope is really tempting - I'm already thinking ahead to the next Great Books read - and Don Quixote hasn't even gotten out of bed to mount Rocinante and hit the trail again.
I am more than excited about what I've just read in Chapter VI where Don Quixote is explaining the four sorts that make up every family tree to his niece. I'll try to sit on it for a bit to see how you reacted to that. In which group is Don Quixote? Where do you fit in this family tree?
Marni, I'm going to look for Sanson's suggestion that they go to Zaragossa for the jousting competition and also the poem he helps Don write for Dulcinea...(who, if you remember, can't read!)
Will be back in a few minutes...I do need to read the Sports pages too - to find out why the French captain threw away that game! What could the Italian have said to him to cause the head-butting? He had to know he'd be ejected! It seemed to me that he threw the game! The final game of the World Cup! The whole scene seemed like something out of Don Quixote!
Joan Pearson
July 10, 2006 - 06:37 am
Two pages into Chapter IV right after Sancho advises his master "that he get back on the road to right wrongs the way good knights errant are supposed to do," they hear Rocinante neighing - Don Quixote thinks this is a good omen and made up his mind to leave home in no more than three or four days. He turns to the college graduate and asks his advice as to where they should begin their new expedition. It is then that Carrasco tells him of the tournament in the city of Zaragosa in Aragon. Don agrees that is where they will go.
Before they leave, he asks Sanson for help with the poem to Dulcinea since he's a college graduate. This is on the last page of Chapter 4, Marni. Hope this helps.
One of the funniest chapters, I think, is Chapter 5 - the dialog between Sancho and Teresa Panza. I agree, Marni, Sancho does sound more of an intellectual! Do you hear the way he talks down to his wife, correcting her grammar usage - calling her "idiot, Ignoramus"... I think we learn a lot about how a woman's place at this time. But Teresa sure stands up to him, doesn't she?
Mippy, do you think Teresa wants Sancho to go back for the island - or for more gold pieces? I don't see the fire in Don Quixote's belly to go back out there for more adventures like before. Maybe I'm missing something. He certainly doesn't want to go back to the aimless search for adventure as he did the last time. The jousting tournament at Zaragosa seems to fill the bill - if he is successful, he will gain a reputation. He'll look good in future publications and Word will get back to Dulcinea. Maybe even to the king...
Joan Pearson
July 10, 2006 - 06:41 am
Hats, I agree, Sancho is talking a lot...and he wants that governorship more than anything.
I like your suggestion that Cervantes is using words that don't fit Sancho's character to draw attention to what he is saying...so we keep an eye on him. Hopefully we will learn more in future chapters.
It seems to me that Cervantes is trying to level the playing. Sancho will take care of all practical matters - all Don Q. has to do is fight the battles. It's almost as if Cervantes is giving Sancho the brains and Don Q. the brawn. Isn't this odd - and an interesting reversal?
Are you getting notes from the "translator" saying that Sancho couldn't possibly be making these "apocryphal" statements? At first I thought the comment was coming from Raffel, but the second time I read another, I realized that this is Cervantes speaking...through his fictional translator. So, at least we know that Cervantes is aware of this situation. Does he want us to understand why? Or just accept it?
1amparo
July 10, 2006 - 07:57 am
Pardiez!! Sancho calling Teresa "ignoramus"? LOL. Sancho's tongue would had got more twists than a "twister"... No. Cervantes had not given our dear Sancho that much 'finesse' not even the "translator". Sancho calls Teresa, in a nice, intimate way,: "mentecata e ignorante" = foolish and ignorant.
Sorry.
Amparo
Deems
July 10, 2006 - 11:05 am
The play, "Mr. Marmalade," was extremely interesting. Comedy with dark undertones, played all the way through with no intermissions. It's about a four-year old, Lucy, and her imaginary friends. An actor in her twenties played Lucy and one of the assumptions of the play is that Lucy understands more about adult life than she possibly could. Impossible to describe. Wish you had all seen it with me. The actor who played Lucy was onstage the entire time.
Hook to Don Quixote: Between the scenes of the play, words were projected on a marquee on the stage telling audience what was coming up sort of like the chapter descriptions in Don Quixote. ONe of them--and I wasn't the only one to laugh, thank heaven--was a description of the scene followed by, "probably the most important scene in the play." Several lines of text were projected onto this little marquee thing, one at a time. Sort of like movie subtitles, but only at the beginning of a scene and above the stage rather than below it.
I must go get Don Quixote (which is in the car because I took the Jeep in for service) so that later I can make some references to the book. I also want to see what Grossman has Sancho call his wife.
Maryal
Joan Pearson
July 10, 2006 - 04:18 pm
hahaha, Amparo! You see Sancho sweet-talking Teresa in a "nice comfortable way when he calls her "foolish" and ignorant! Who would you say wins the argument about whether or not little Mari will marry up or a boy from the neighborhood just like the Panzas? She allows that "women are born with this responsibility: we have to obey our husbands, even if they are stupid fools."
But then did you notice what Teresa did? The tears? She wept so hard that " it was as if she could already see her Sanchica dead and buried." Tears work every time! Sancho comforts her...he tells her he'd have to make her a countess ...but would put it off as long as he could. Lots can happen with Mari and the local boy in the meantime, right?
Joan Pearson
July 10, 2006 - 04:38 pm
Maryal - what an amazing coincidence!!!"Between the scenes of the play, words were projected on a marquee on the stage telling audience what was coming up sort of like the chapter descriptions in Don Quixote. One of them--and I wasn't the only one to laugh, thank heaven--was a description of the scene followed by, "probably the most important scene in the play."
That's exactly what Cervantes writes in the beginning of Chapter 6I Had you read Chapter VI before you saw that?
Do you know what? I believe Cervantes about this - I think. Remember when we came upon the quote about reaching for the impossible?"In seeking the Impossible, one is denied that which is possible. - "He who hunts the impossible may in perfect justice find himself denied that which is possible."
I thought at the time that this was quite a valuable lesson. Maybe the most important in the book! When you strive for that which is impossible, you overlook that which is possible, right within your grasp.
But now this! Don Quixote defends his quest to his niece and housekeeper, describing the four sorts that make up every family tree - Some begin humbly, but grow and stretch until they reach nobility;
Others have magnificent beginnings, stay that way, and continue as they began.
Still others who start magnificently, like a pyramid end in a point, destroying their beginnings until it all turns into nothing.
Some, the majority, neither start well, nor make any progress, come to a nameless end.
What choice does Don Quixote have but to strive for the impossible? Sancho? What choice do any of us have but to stretch and grow? Do you think this is the most important chapter in the book?
marni0308
July 10, 2006 - 09:43 pm
JoanP: Thanks for the info. That does. help.
I don't think that stretching and growing are necessarily the same thing as striving for the impossible. Some things may be exceedingly challenging without being totally impossible. Stretching and growing can result in great satisfaction whereas the inability of reaching the impossible might result in great frustration. However, who is to say that something is impossible? Sometimes the impossible becomes possible.
I sound like Sancho now.
hats
July 11, 2006 - 02:18 am
I love this word "quixoticies."
"Let's have more quixoticies: let Don Quixote go charging and Sancho Panza keep talking...."
hats
July 11, 2006 - 02:30 am
JoanP, I don't want to miss anything. I bet there are many nuggets of gold in chapter vi. I haven't finished reading it yet. I find the family tree information very interesting. I am almost persuaded Don Q is a scholar of some kind.
The niece is really outspoken. She calls the Don old, ailing and a poor man. I thought the Don would become very angry. He just calmly takes it in and begins to tell his philosophies. These words of the niece made me laugh.
"He knows everything, he understands everything, and I'd wager that if he wanted to be a mason, he'd know how to build a house as well as a cage."
The niece is really bold. I think she is fed up with the Don's shenanigans.
Mippy
July 11, 2006 - 03:48 am
He who hunts the impossible ~
Isn't this the essential heart of DQ?
I hear the song
To Dream the Impossible Dream from the musical each time someone posts the word impossible.
I'll be back later, to talk about the assertive neice and the recent chapters.
G'morning, Hats, who is posting even earlier than I.
hats
July 11, 2006 - 04:29 am
Good morning, Mippy! I have been humming the song. When I can't remember a word to the song, I replace it.
Mippy
July 11, 2006 - 05:40 am
JoanP asked: Do you agree with the introductory phrase to this chapter - that this is perhaps the "most important" chapter in the whole history?
Tricky question, eh? Not having read the entire Vol. II, I could not say what chapter is most important.
However, since Cervantes wrote the header, he's pointing out that this chapter has great weight.
DQ indicated he knows his quest has irrational aspects. But he must go on
seeking the impossible ... perhaps in order to keep living.
Which poet (Dylan Thomas?) wrote: do not go gently into the night ... rage on ...
Here's a lesson for those of us who are retired ... do not go gently ... do not
hesitate to read difficult classics, for example!
Joan Pearson
July 11, 2006 - 05:50 am
Good morning, EARLY BIRDS! Did you leave any worms for me? I need to walk the dog, slept in a bit later than usual this morning, but will hurry back to talk more about Chapter VI. Let's not move on to Chapter 7 as scheduled and linger a bit on this chapter, which is after all, to quote Cervantes, the most important chapter in the book. Marni, Mippy, Hats..you give us much to think about. Back later to address them after the dog and I discuss them.
Hats, I totally missed "quixoticies" and will thumb back through the pages to find it. (How do you pronounce it?) Thank you! In the meantime, this is for you - all together now...
"The Impossible Dream"
from MAN OF LA MANCHA (1972)
music by Mitch Leigh and lyrics by Joe Darion
"The Impossible Dream" (a .MP3 file courtesy MGM).
To dream the impossible dream
To fight the unbeatable foe
To bear with unbearable sorrow
To run where the brave dare not go
To right the unrightable wrong
To love pure and chaste from afar
To try when your arms are too weary
To reach the unreachable star
This is my quest
To follow that star
No matter how hopeless
No matter how far
To fight for the right
Without question or pause
To be willing to march into Hell
For a heavenly cause
And I know if I'll only be true
To this glorious quest
That my heart will lie peaceful and calm
When I'm laid to my rest
And the world will be better for this
That one man, scorned and covered with scars
Still strove with his last ounce of courage
To reach the unreachable star
hats
July 11, 2006 - 05:53 am
JoanP, what a nice gift to us this morning.
That word is about one or two pages into the fourth chapter.
Mippy
July 11, 2006 - 06:36 am
Thank you, JoanP!
Deems
July 11, 2006 - 07:22 am
Hats--I noticed "quixoticies" too and enjoyed it! You may not find the same word in your translation, Joan P.
Here's the context from Chapter 4. Sanson is speaking, "There is some doubt there will be a second part; but certain people who are more jovial than saturnine say: 'Let's have more quixoticies: let Don Quixote go charging and Sancho Panza keep talking and whatever else happens, that will make us happy'."
As for "The Impossible Dream," perhaps other lines--which Joan P has quoted above--are also pertinent. "To bear with unbearable sorrow," for example, or "To try when your arms are too weary." If you look at the lyrics closely, there's sorrow mixed with following an impossible dream. Let's not romanticize the song too much.
Concerning the play I saw and Joan P's question. Joan, I saw the play first and read Chap. VI next. But the lines of text that appeared throughout the play to introduce scenes reminded me of Don Quixote. When I hit the actual line in the novel, I laughed again.
As for whether or not Chap VI is the "most important in this whole history"--which would include Parts I and II, I think I'll wait and see. I don't find the information about the families and whether or not they succeed and what their origins are, especially important though they are clearly important to the Don. You start low and end up high. You start high and stay there. You start high and fall. You start and end about in the same place.
There really aren't any other alternatives, are there?
At the time most people would have been of the peasant class. They stayed more or less where they were. Sancho's wife, Teresa, sensibly understands that there are acceptable husbands for her daughter that she already knows, that her daughter was not raised to be a countess. That's very practical, I think.
Sort of like you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
If we're thinking in general terms, I'm of the opinion that most of us start out and end up in about the same place. Of course there are inspiring stories of immigrants rising to high social position. That doctor in New York, for example, who just yesterday apparently blew up his very expensive town house a couple of blocks away from Central Park in New York. He and his wife were immigrants. He became a successful doctor and with his family bought the now non-existent townhouse.
One section toward the end of the knight's dissertation on lineage struck me as having contemporary echoes:
"[T]he person who possesses wealth is not made happy by having it but by spending it, and not spending it haphazardly but in knowing how to spend it well."
I started thinking about Bill and Melinda Gates and Bono and now Warren Buffett. They have all found a good way of spending wealth.
Maryal
hats
July 11, 2006 - 07:32 am
Maryal, I am not seeing the most important lesson to take with me either. I feel like I've missed something. I' am afraid to move to chapter vii until I find the vital piece of information.
I like your quotation. "Sort of like you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear."
I also think of "You can take the person out of the country, but you can't take the country out of the person."
Sancho's wife is very practical. I thought she would want her daughter to move or marry "up." I liked it when she worried about the daughter making some bad mistake in a noble household.
Deems
July 11, 2006 - 07:48 am
Hats--O no, what are we to do if we can't find why Chap 6 is so important, in fact the MOST important?
I say we just carry on and tell ourselves that maybe we will understand better later. (No matter what I do, I can't get the "Mr. Bill" emoticon to come out larger. Drat.)
hats
July 11, 2006 - 07:57 am
It does look very tiny, like he's melting or disappearing. Why is he called Mr. Bill?
Mippy
July 11, 2006 - 08:04 am
Maryal ~ I bet to disagree. Only in America (a famous book)
In my case, if I'd stayed at the station in life where my father wished me to stay, I'd be a housewife with no college education. It may be hard for you, Maryal, to believe, but in the 1950s he had no interest in spending (he would have said wasting) money on a college education for me.
Needless to say, I didn't pay any attention, went to college on a scholarship, as far away from home as possible, and later got my advanced degree.
If I'd been a daughter of Sancho, I'd be a peasant milking the cows or sheep at age 65. Unless DQ came along and changed my life.
Thus, IMHO, readers must not assume life in the 1600s is entirely different from in the 1950s.
Joan Pearson
July 11, 2006 - 08:59 am
Thanks, Hats, Maryal - I located the passage where "quixoticies" occurred in your translations...and can see where I missed it in Raffel who translates: - "Let's have more about Don Quixote! Let him keep rushing around and Sancho Panza go on jabbering..."
I am excited if Cervantes used the term, quixoticies or any noun like it, rather than Don Quixote's name as Raffel translates it. If it is a noun familiar to Cervantes, maybe this would explain why he named his central character "Quixote." Let's wait for Amparo to look at the original Spanish before getting all excited about this. (Well, I'm excited, anyway. )
Deems
July 11, 2006 - 09:08 am
Congratulations, Mippy, on going beyond what your father intended for you. Good for you getting a scholarship and getting out of Dodge. I grew up in the fifties too and I remember how it was. My sister, nine years older, and smart as a whip, wound up (despite college and working on an M.A.) in the traditional role for women at that time. She never was really happy in the role. I've always wondered how her life might have been different if she'd been the younger sister.
I didn't express my idea very well. I was thinking more of the general run of things, not that children do not exceed parents' expectations or earn more money, but that on average, most people stay more or less where they began with many exceptions to the rule.
Maybe better to withdraw the generalization since usually I avoid generalizations.
Your idea of thinking of the early 1600s is a good one. Do you think that young Mari Panza aspires to marry a duke? Unfortunately, we don't have her point of view--at least not yet. Both parents are deciding what is best for her. We've already read about young people choosing for themselves and how upset fathers could get, haven't we? Looks like the young folks had to be real scrappers to get away from that authority.
Of course I'm assuming that Sancho is hoping in vain for an insula and for a position which would allow his daughter to marry into the aristocracy.
P.S. The fifties were an awful time for a girl. I was so relieved when I discovered beat poets and Ferlinghetti.
Deems
July 11, 2006 - 09:15 am
Amparo--We need you again on the "quixoticies" issue.
I'm hoping that Cervantes did use that noun. If he did, he must have coined it, I think.
HatsThe little blue emoticon is named "Mr. Bill" after the clay character on Saturday Night Live (back in the 70s). He was always running into trouble and getting smooshed or something. At that point, the narrator would say O, NOooooo, Mr. Bill!!! It was an animated piece sort of making fun of children's cartoons.
Joan Pearson
July 11, 2006 - 09:33 am
Marni, (Sancho)~
Ok, I get your point. Stretching and growing are not the same thing as reaching for the impossible. When you say "stretching and growing" can result in great satisfaction, I agree with that too. The trick is to know whether a goal is "possible" to attain, and to have an inner understanding whether anything short of that goal would be satisfying and acceptable.
I'm thinking of Don Quixote's "impossible dream" - no, I should say I'm trying to figure out just exactly what IS Don Quixote's dream? Is to do good, right wrongs? If that's the goal, he will surely find some success, as well as experience some failures. I don't think of that as an impossible goal, do you?
But if it is to win the hand of the young and fair Dulcinea, well now, I'm not so sure that's possible. "Who is to say something is impossible? Sometimes the impossible is possible." Would Sancho agree that winning Dulcinea is a possible dream?
Oh yeah, Mippy - a poorly worded question, I agree. Let's try again. Do you see why Don Quixote might consider this the most important chapter in his novel? Maryal - I'm taken aback at your acceptance that we end up where we start out. I somehow find that depressing. You see no alternative? Does Cervantes see it that way? Maybe those of us who get excited about the possibilities are hopeless optimisists! Hats, do you believe that one has a choice to reach for more than one is dealt?
Are we breaking down into two camps? The dreaming Quixotes and the practical Teresa Panzas? Where is Cervantes on this?
Do you know what I like best about Don Quixote following his dream...no matter how impossible it is? His niece points out that he's OLD, FEEBLE and also that POOR MEN can't be knights. An impossible situation. That got to me too, Hats. Poor men can't do much about their situation. Even if they are not old and failing.
Mippy - yes, yes, Dylan Thomas - DO Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night - how fitting! "Rage, rage against the dying of the light." Isn't that what our Don is doing? Don't you think our knight will die happier for having tried than if he listened to his niece and stayed in bed under his red Toledo cap?
Deems
July 11, 2006 - 09:39 am
Wet blanket Me, huh? I'm not a pessimist and probably also not an optimist though I remain fairly cheerful most of the time. I think--no confirmation on this--that I would be classified as a realist.
Whatever that is.
And I'm certainly not saying there is no hope. Hope for what, by the way?
I'll provide a subject. World peace. Possible? Impossible? Unlikely?
Mippy
July 11, 2006 - 09:45 am
Thanks for posting the poem by Dylan Thomas, JoanP !
I'm a cock-eyed optimist. I do hope and pray for peace.
marni0308
July 11, 2006 - 10:56 am
And the world will be better for this
That one man, scorned and covered with scars
Still strove with his last ounce of courage
To reach the unreachable star
Whoever wrote the lyrics sure knew our Don. I suppose striving for the impossible creates glory for the seeker whether the goal is reached or not. Seeking glory seems important for many men. Is glory-seeking a manly attribute? Do women seek glory?
Mippy
July 11, 2006 - 01:08 pm
Marni ~ you wrote: do women ever seek glory?
Have you ever met a young woman lawyer?
I know one who may be aspiring to be a judge. Is that glory?
In edit: How about women fighter pilots and astronauts?
1amparo
July 11, 2006 - 04:19 pm
Deems: 'Let's have more quixoticies: let Don Quixote go charging and Sancho Panza keep talking and whatever else happens, that will make us happy'.
It is a very good translation of what Cervantes wrote, here it is:
"Vengan más quijotadas: embista don Quijote y hable Sancho Panza, y sea lo que fuere; que con eso nos contentamos." JoanP, thanks for lyrics of "Man from La Manch" I have printed it.
Chapter VI have DQ describing himself: no matter what; must always do good. And that is what most Spaniards (regardless of gender) if ever see anyone in distress "The Quixote" in them will attempt to help. Few times, while in Spain, I have played the helpless damsel to some male bureaucrat, or traffic policeman and I had almost seen them change into DQ: Rocinante at full gallop, lance at the ready...
and I got my way! Nasty bitch I am. LOL
Amparo
Deems
July 11, 2006 - 04:24 pm
I am so happy, having become convinced on the basis of not very much evidence, just a sort of sixth sense, that Grossman is a very good translator.
Thank you, Amparo!!
Traude S
July 11, 2006 - 07:17 pm
Only a brief note now after a long busy day offline and out of town.
As for the quest by whatever name, isn't it realism/practicality versus idealism (as in head-in-the-clouds) ?
But must we declare unequivocally for either one OR the other? We already know that dreamers and true idealists are in a distinct minority in this world, don't we?
Yes, DEEMS, Grossman is an excellent translator. I leafed through the Putnam translation first, and there is no comparison, also because the Putnam translation is abridged .
Harold Bloom says in his Introduction to the Grossman translation :
"Grossman might be called the Glenn Gould of translators, because she, too, articulates every note. Reading her amazing mode of finding equivalents in English for Cervantes's darkening vision is an entrance into further understanding of why this great book contains within itself all the novels that have followed in its sublime wake."
We must also remember, as AMAPRO's quotation shows, that the Spanish name is Quijote, with a 'j', and that English translators changed it to an 'x' because that comes closest to the Spanish sound.
(Not that it matters, but our German translation had the original spelling, Don Qui<Ujote>.)
The nature of the footnotes is proof of Grossman's meticulous research into details of all sorts, including Cervantes's "oversights", as she gently calls them.
There are footnotes about the Spanish coins used in the sixteen hundreds, and I'll mention them briefly tomorrow. Becaue I did promise.
1amparo
July 11, 2006 - 11:27 pm
Traude, don't blame English translators for given the "X" to Quixote. Cervantes wrote in old Spanish and at that time QUIXOTE was correct. However, through the years and normal evolution, as all languages are constantly changing, the X was replaced by the J, hence the correct modern Spanish is Quijote while the old is Quixote. Of this the English are innocent!
I cannot copy and paste from Cervantes original, I shall try to send a photo to JoanP.
Cheers.
Amparo
hats
July 12, 2006 - 12:13 am
Amparo, I am very happy to know that Don Q's spirit is alive and well. Don Q is all of the Good Samaritans coming to the rescue of those in need. That's great!
Deems and Traude, I feel great knowing you would encourage the use of the Grossman translation. That's the one I'am using. I trust it because both of you like it.
Joan Pearson
July 12, 2006 - 07:21 am
Good morning, Impossible Dreamers...and Realists too!
Maryal, I was about to point out that Teresa Panza was also a realist - before I caught myself identifying as a realist a woman who is weeping because she dreads the day her Sancho will become governor of an island and marry off their poor daughter to a count! Stop your crying, woman! Get real! It's not going to happen!
Traudee makes a point - "But must we declare unequivocally for either one OR the other? We already know that dreamers and true idealists are in a distinct minority in this world..." Yes, but isn't that Cervantes point? The minority will be seen as eccentric, will be laughed at and even persecuted by the majority. But those who reach will be better for having done so? Amparo sees him in Chapter 6 as feeling compelled to do good, to to what he sees as the right thing, no matter what.
Amparo - the helpless damsel works in Spain - how about tears with the traffic policeman? It's worked for me on a number of occasions!
Still the question persists...what is Cervantes quest? Is it to do good, to right wrongs or is it to achieve glory - to impress Dulcinea and gain her love and admiration? WE haven't heard any more about going to the king and offering his service as a knight errant to fight the approaching Turks...Has he forgotten, or does he still plan on doing that?
Marni - is it a guy thing? Or do women seek glory as well? Surely Teresa doesn't want any part of glory, even reflected glory. Mippy - do you think that is why female astronauts want to go into space? To make a mark in history? Is that why a woman would seek the presidency - to make history as the first?
Joan Pearson
July 12, 2006 - 07:41 am
Traudee, I'm looking forward to learning the value of those 100 gold pieces from Grossman's footnote. I am guessing it is quite a bit. Money earns respect - doesn't it? Just like today. Sancho and Teresa Panza, the nouveaux riche!>br>
"Quixoticies" - thank youAmparo! "quijotadas"- there it is - a Spanish word! I was so excited to see that! Now the question - was this a Spanish word BEFORE Cervantes named his character? Did Cervantes name Don Quixote knowing this word? Or did he coin the word, "quijotadas" to describe his hero's antics?
Another bit of important information today from Amparo -
the troublesome spelling of QUIXOTE/QUIJOTE...the original Spanish spelling=QUIXOTE; the modern=QUIJOTE!
Thank you so much,
Amparo for sending the photos of the ORIGINAL Covers and Pages - I love to look at these!
This is the front cover of Volume I (notice the "x" in Quixote)
QuiXote, Part II COVER
Don QuiXte Part I, Chapter I
Joan Pearson
July 12, 2006 - 08:08 am
- After reading Chapter VI, can you tell whether Cervantes believes that social mobility is possible - that a man should even try to move himself, his family up the social ladder, or is this unrealistic? I'm thinking that the early 17th century is quite a distance in time from the time that old barriers were broken. And yet...folks here seem to be dreaming of it. Even Sancho might become a governor of an island, his daughter a countess. Is social mobility the "IMPOSSIBLE DREAM"?
Hold on to your hat, Hats! It looks like the trip is on - nothing to do but iron out the terms of the contract - Sancho wants his salary in writing. For the life of me, I can't understand why Sanson would volunteer to come along as Don Q's squire! Why would he do that? What's more amazing...Don Q. turned him down!
Look forward to hearing from you!
hats
July 12, 2006 - 08:10 am
JoanP and Amparo, thank you for showing the original covers. This is so exciting.
Joan Pearson
July 12, 2006 - 09:33 am
Hats, I think so too. I was curious so I blew up the illustration in the center of the cover and found this...hope you can read the Latin words surrounding it -"Post tenebras spero lucem"
I'll attempt a translation here - "After the darkness, I hope for light." An interesting comment...and I think we all share this hope!
So, why did the healthy young intelligent university graduate volunteer to be Don Quixote's squire? He's supposed to be in on some sort of a plot with the priest and the barber to keep him off the road, but Sanson seems to be doing anything but that. Ask the niece and the housekeeper, they'll tell you!
Deems
July 12, 2006 - 05:57 pm
Those are lovely reproductions, Joan. I have looked at them several times. Interesting that the X became J in modern Spanish. I wonder if there is still an X. Amparo, is there still an X?
Sorry for my absence today. When I was home in the late afternoon, storms kept moving through and to ensure the health of my laptop, I unplugged it. I forgot to take off the DSL cable though I meant to. A fellow at a restaurant a few nights ago said that his friend's computer had been fried in a recent storm because of the DSL cable. Apparently it was disconnected from electricity. Sooooo I'm trying to remember to unplug both the power and the cable, but I haven't managed it yet.
I think one of the reasons that DQ corrects Sancho and that Sancho later corrects Teresa is for the comic effect. So much of comedy involves word play and Sancho can be making a very good point but getting a word or two wrong. This is enjoyable for the audience as well as giving DQ something to do other than observe the wisdom of Sancho's remark.
One of the things that has struck me in Grossman's translation is how often she manages to get these puns to work in another language. That task would seem hard. I know from experience and the experiences of others that the last thing one learns how to do in another language is tell a joke or understand one. You have to know the insides of language to be funny.
In chapter 8, I thought the discussion of fame, especially the fame one finds in being written about (as has happened to our pair) was very interesting.
DQ tells of a young courtesan who was left out of a poet's satire because the poet was not sure she was a courtesan and her displeasure at being omitted as well as her urging the poet to write more and include her and her pleasure when he did so even though the poet said "the most vicious thing about her" she was happy. I thought about how negative attention is better to children than no attention at all!
Finally it seems that Sancho has become far braver as he argues with Don Quixote. In Part I, he never would have dared to tell DQ that in his opinion it might be better for them both to "begin to be saints" rather than pursue knight errantry. He even wins a concession from Quixote who says, "All of that is true, but we cannot all be friars, and God brings His children to heaven by many paths: chivalry is a religion, and there are sainted knights in Glory."
Meanwhile at the end of Chap 8, the city of Toboso is in view and Sancho who has claimed to have visited the lady Dulcinea with Quixote's letter is in a state of agitation.
marni0308
July 12, 2006 - 08:59 pm
What fabulous images! Thanks, Amparo!
Re: "Sancho wants his salary in writing." Wasn't that a funny and moving scene - Sancho laying down some rules for the Don if he were to continue as squire. And then the Don makes Sancho "blubber" when he immediately turns to Sanson to take Sancho's place, acting highly insulted at Sancho's requests. Sancho is really such a sweety. He and the Don really are wonderful buddies. They both can be such children, though.
1amparo
July 13, 2006 - 03:09 am
Yes the letter "X" is still in use these days.
I forgot to mention that those pictures of Cervantes's books are courtesy of Real Academia Española (RAE) / Biblioteca Nacional. I love the footnote at the end of both covers:
"Con Privillegio, en Madrid Por Juan de la Cuesta. Vendese en casa de Francisco de Robles, librero del Rey nto(=nuestro) señor".
= Published by Juan de la Cuesta. For sale in Francisco de Robles house (library), bookseller - librarian of the King our sire.
The King being Felipe III
Amparo
Joan Pearson
July 13, 2006 - 06:01 am
Amparo Our Don's book is being sold by the KING's own Librarian! - from his own home! Invaluable information! Thank you so much. This tells us that Cervantes is "in like Flynn" - that he has two most influential backers, King Felipe III and the Cardinal mentioned in the Prologue to Volume II. It would seem that as long as he exercises some caution that Cervantes is safe from the Inquisitors - more so than when he wrote the first volume of the history.
I've been thinking of the words on the cover..."After the darkness, I hope for the light." Lovely words, I'm wondering who wrote them. Don't they sound as if Cervantes could have written them? If so, perhaps he will "see the light" before he comes to the end of his journey?
hats
July 13, 2006 - 06:07 am
JoanP and Amparo, thank you for all the interesting information. JoanP, I am glad you brought up the Inquisition. Was it brave of Cervantes to bring up the "sanbenito?" Is it possible he might have gotten in trouble for bringing up such items?
Grossman's Footnote,
"The stigmatizing hood and robe that those accused by the Inquisition were obliged to wear."
hats
July 13, 2006 - 06:09 am
Amparo, have you ever seen a sanbenito in a Spanish museum? A sanbenito seems very frightening.
Joan Pearson
July 13, 2006 - 06:51 am
Good morning, Hats! You read with an eagle's eye! Please will you tell where you read of the "sanbenito?"
Sanbenito - from A Defense of the Inquisitions
I don't think the sanbenito was a form of torture, but rather an article of clothing one wore to signify that he had been tried by the Inquisition and was a penitent...and that he would be closely watched for future violations. Sort of like being on parole. That must have been frightening!
Joan Pearson
July 13, 2006 - 06:58 am
Hats, don't you think that Cervantes writes as if he is quite comfortable in his skin? He doesn't write as if he is under too much scrutiny or restriction - I don't think.
Maryal - it's interesting to me how Cervantes uses humor to treat sensitive issues in a way his audience is amused, yet gets the message at the same time. No one likes to be corrected when he knows that his listener understood full well what he was saying. Instead of getting a response, the listener seems to delight in making grammatical corrections. It's an avoidance technique,isn't it? And hurtful. The knight seems to want to keep the squire in his place. Sancho has learned the technique and uses it to keep Teresa in hers, maintaining his role as master in his own home.
Marni - "He and the Don really are wonderful buddies." Oh, I think so too. Why else would Don Q. have turned down Sanson's offer to act as his squire - for nothing? No salary, no promise of an island? Why would anyone turn down such an offer? - unless he wanted his "buddy" to come along with him! Our "tin man" has a heart!
And did you notice Sancho shifting the blame for the salary request on Teresa? "Women don't go to school, but if you don't take their advice, then you're the fool." Do you think Sancho had any sort of education? He can't read, can he? What's this about women not going to school?
When Sanson volunteered to go in his place, Sancho changes his position to "I'm going to be the master in my own home, no matter what anyone says."
I find this jockeying for power quite interesting. It's telling me that women really did exercise more power at this time than one would have imagined.
I'm wondering at Sanson's role here. He is referred to as their "delphic oracle." I'm not sure he wants to keep them from future adventures as he has told the priest, the barber, the housekeeper, the niece. I suspect him, but not sure why...
hats
July 13, 2006 - 06:59 am
JoanP, thank you for the picture. "Sanbenito" is in Chapter VI of Volume II. In the Grossman translation, it is on page 493. The niece is speaking.
"Your grace should remember that everything you say about knights errant is invention and lies, and each of their histories, if it isn't burned, deserves to wear a sanbenito or some other sign that it has been recognized as the infamous ruination of virtuous customs."
It's on the same page where alchemy is being discussed. A "touchstone" is mentioned on the same page.
Then, there is the footnote.
"The stigmatizing hood and robe that those accused by the Inquisition were obliged to wear.
hats
July 13, 2006 - 07:01 am
JoanP, I agree. I get the impression that Cervantes is not living in fear.
Deems
July 13, 2006 - 07:19 am
Amparo--Thank you as the original provider of the front matter and title page. I wonder about that Latin inscription as well. I do like it. After the darkness, I hope for light. This world, this life is commonly referred to as a "vale of tears" because of the suffering in it, but I wonder if that was a famous inscription of the publisher or someone in particular. Must do some detective work. It sure sounds like a quote or a motto for me. Something carved on a tombstone?
Joan P--I guess you're right about having one's language corrected being hurtful, but in this book it seems comedy and I think would be funnier still in the original Spanish. To those who, like my father, loved puns, that is. What an acute observation you make about language correction being used to keep one in one's place though! I wouldn't have thought of that.
Hats--Glad you spoke up about the "sanbenito" garb because then Joan goes and gets an illustration as well as an article I plan to read later since I haven't often read a defense of the Inquisition! It is good to know that some people apparently escapted torture and were simply asked to do public penance by wearing that outfit.
Reminds me of the scarlet letter except that poor Hester had to wear that throughout her life. And the MINISTER gets away with it until the very end. Grrrrrrrrrrrr.
Maryal
hats
July 13, 2006 - 07:22 am
Maryal, I know! Grrrrrrrrrrrr is right about Hester.
Mippy
July 13, 2006 - 09:17 am
I'm wondering at Sanson's role here, you wrote, JoanP.
Ah, the punishment of reading ahead ... wait and see ...
Ditto on the Grrrrrrrrr over Hester ... what hypocrites people are!
marni0308
July 13, 2006 - 11:21 am
Actually, the minister (Dimmesdale?) didn't get away with it in The Scarlet Letter til the end. Didn't we find out at the end that he had carved the letter A on his chest and he had been going around like that suffering in terrible pain punishing himself for a long time? Sounds like he actually in the long run had it worse than Hester.
Sorry, I had to "budge" in. (My son used to say "budge in" instead of "but in" so my husband and I say that to this day!)
hats
July 13, 2006 - 11:23 am
I always felt very sorry for Hester. She dealt with so much public pain for so long while the minister said not a word. He hid behind the cloak of religion, I think.
What happened to Don Q??
marni0308
July 13, 2006 - 11:25 am
Dimmesdale was a coward.
hats
July 13, 2006 - 11:26 am
Exactly! Maybe he was a bit dim too.
marni0308
July 13, 2006 - 11:30 am
Yup! I think that's exactly why Hawthorne gave him that name. I guess he was sort of like Dickens - giving characters names that went with their personalities. Does Cervantes do that?
hats
July 13, 2006 - 11:33 am
Good question! I think JoanP asked that question. When we were talking about quixocities, which came first, The Don's name or that word?
My wording looks jumbled.
Deems
July 13, 2006 - 12:23 pm
OK, it's my fault for mentioning The Scarlet Letter! I don't care how much D. suffered inwardly. He was a real jerk, and yes, Hats, I think hiding behind religion. Hypocrite.
Back to the Don. I still think that Cervantes coined the word, quixoticies, but we need to hear that from Amparo. If you aren't an expert in early 17th c. Spanish, Amparo, we will excuse you.
And we don't know yet what tricks Carrasco has up his sleeve so that question is unanswerable at present.
Traude S
July 13, 2006 - 03:20 pm
HATS, Cervantes had nothing to fear; nonetheless it was prudent to exercise caution in writing (or in art. Francisco de Goya a century later did the same thing.)
Thank you for the picture of the sanbenito - a sleeveless garment similar to a scapular made of sackcloth that condemned heretics had to wear for all the world to see. It was yellow with red crosses for the penitent and black with flames and devils to mark the impenitent.
Yes, Señor Carrasco has an ulterior motive, as we will soon see.
Back after the evening news.
1amparo
July 13, 2006 - 06:35 pm
I don't know about "quixoticies"; I know about "quijotadas and I gave the answer on post 155.It is a Cervante's word and it has come to mean to do crazy things, or that what Quijote would do.
Gosh! "sanbenito!" I haven't heard that word for donkeys years, mates; in Spain, my mother and all mothers who had a mischievous child: When I was little and we children were misbehaving, the culprit's mother would said: "is my sanbenito". LOL
About "post tenebras spero lucem" what about Job 17,12??? It was/is the logo for "Juan de la Cuesta" printing.
Amparo
Deems
July 13, 2006 - 06:45 pm
Amparo--Joan P's question was whether Cervantes coined the word "quijotadas" (Grossman translates as quixoticies) and you have answered the question. Yes, he did, Joan!
I loved your story about mothers calling their naughty children sanbenitos. We need a word like that in English, one that sounds so good and really means naughty.
OK, folks, I'm off to bed to read. I'm currently reading, in addition to Don Quixote, of course, a graphic novel called Epileptic. A colleague of mine taught it last year and I'm thinking of doing it. So far I am really enjoying it. It's by the brother of an epileptic growing up in France in the 1970s. All sorts of other things in it too, like a lot of wars, remembered by various grandparents.
Maryal
Traude S
July 13, 2006 - 06:49 pm
Different coins are mentioned in the text and identified in footnotes.
coronado = coin of little value worth about one sixth of a maravedí
maravedí = coin introduced by the Moors, precise value difficult to assess since value changed over time
eight reales = roughly equivalent to thirty-four maravedís
cuarillo = one fourth of a real
cuarto = four maravedís
In chapter XLI, ten thousand doblas = gold coin worth approximatelty six silver reales.
Unfortunately I did not find a foot-noted definition of the escudo though I checked three times (with a magnifying class because the footnotes are tiny).
It is safe to assume, though, that one hundred gold coins of any denomination held great value for the beholder in any other currency, too, then and now.
According to information on the web, gold escudos were valued at sixteen times that of silver reales issues.
The silver escudo was minted from 1866 and eventually replaced by the peseta.
Thanks to Samson Carrasco, the Don has a better-looking helmet now!
Adelante! = Onward!
Traude S
July 13, 2006 - 07:11 pm
The question about dreams reminded me of a wonderful asphorism by Baroness Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach, a 19th century Austrian author, which says
Don't call yourself poor because your dreams did not come true. Really poor are only those who never dreamed at all
hats
July 14, 2006 - 01:41 am
Amparo, thank you. I am trying to hear the mothers call their "sanbenitos." I can't speak Spanish. So, I am messing up the beautiful Spanish language.
Traude, I will have to write down that quotation. Each reading of it gives me more to think over. Thank you.
That's the word "cautious." Thank you, Traude.
Maryal, I have written the title "Epileptic" on my library list. Thanks for mentioning it.
hats
July 14, 2006 - 01:51 am
Cervantes reminds me of a man with a great sense of humor. Don Quixote is truly good for a sad heart. I just have to laugh. Why did Faulkner read it every year? Did he read it to lift his spirits or for the wisdom in it?
Amparo, do you laugh everytime you read it?
1amparo
July 14, 2006 - 03:06 am
You bet,
Hats. Everytime I read DQ without fail. With Sancho it is his language and proverbs, I don't know how your translators manage with all the plethora of proverbs, they being just about the only thing Sancho get correct in pronouncing. With DQ it is his seriousness... Cervantes describes so well every tiny detail and innuendo. I think my favourite adventure is the one still to come; the lion. I will not say anymore. Needless to say I am laughing just to remember it.
There is one very famous anecdote involving the king Philip III (by the way, King Philip did write a nice two pages authorizing the printing of DQ. At the end he Signed, "I, the King".
Anyhow, it is said that once the king went to some public official function and sitting on a balcony, not far from the king and his people, was a young man laughing himself silly. The King looked at the young fellow and said to one of his ministers or whatever: "that young man is either mad or reading Don Quijote". The King's aid went to investigate and came back to report that indeed the young man was reading DQ!
Oh, yes. Before I forget. In Spanish it is called
sambenito with "m", which was also a sign put up outside the church with names of people and their corresponding sambenito... few scales depending on the offence.
sambenito scales Amparo PS. You all are making me remember some very happy times in my childhood. I am very grateful to you all.
Joan Pearson
July 14, 2006 - 06:13 am
Good morning, Dreamers! " Really poor are only those who never dreamed at all." (Thanks, Traudee!)
Such wonderful information here - We're grateful to YOU, Amparo, and to all of you who are making this period really come alive! I hope you all click the link to the "Sambenito scales Amparo just posted. I loved the anecdote about the king guessing why that young man was laughing. It tells that Cervantes was in very little danger of ever going before the Inquisition officials and having to wear one of these garments. Do you imagine you'd see the sambenitos in the little villages like Toboso?
Post tenebras spero lucem. - Amparo, I looked up Job, 17,12 - 12 These men turn night into day;
in the face of darkness they say, 'Light is near.'
Hmmmm...these men seem to know that light is near. THe author of the sentence sees to express hope that it will come. I don't have any better idea however. I was thinking yesterday how aptly it describes the period in history...the transition between the darkness of the medieval times and the light on the horizon as the Renaissance sends out its rays like the rising sun...
Traudee, thank you for giving us the footnote on money - haven't done the math, but gather that 100 gold pieces were quite as valuable as they would be today!
Aren't the pages of the novel coming to life 400 years later? Amparo asks, "I don't know how your translators manage with all the plethora of proverbs" - you know, I was wondering about the translators and how much improvising they used to bring them to us. I was absolutely floored at how many very familiar proverbs I was seeing - especially here in Chapter 9. Were they really and truly that old? Then, I started to wonder about the translators. How many did you recognize? Let's conduct an experiment - and test one proverb in particular? Amparo, will you please check chapter 9 and see if you see this expression in the Spanish - (can it really be that old?):
"Let's not throw away the baby with the bathwater."
Chapter 9 is quite hilarious. And beautifully written too. Our "buddies" are entering Toboso at midnight. Everyone is asleep, and yet the knight takes the deep silence, the inhabitants "snoring like logs"(???), the cacophony of sleeping animal sounds as a bad omen. And this is just the first paragraph!
Did you believe they'd ever make it to Toboso? I love the way Cervantes stretches out the actual face to face with Dulcinea. Excitement builds while the town sleeps. Tantalizing...and don't you just KNOW that something is going to interfere with their meeting!
marni0308
July 14, 2006 - 08:39 am
Amparo: The sambenito information is chilling - "Those to be relaxed" meaning those to be burned at the stake. Horrible. I don't think I'd be relaxing much while I burned. Maybe later.....But, then again, the church probably believed those burned would go to Hell.
Deems
July 14, 2006 - 08:41 am
Joan P--I scanned through Chap. 9 twice and couldn't find anything about babies and bathwater. Give me a little context, please, and I'll try to find Grossman's translation.
Maybe Hats can find a baby; I can't.
Amparo--good to hear that you are experiencing some pleasant childhood memories. That link you provided about the stages of sambenitos and some of the links I read from there sent chills through me and gratitude that I was not born during the period of the Inquisition.
I surely would have had to endure the procession and would have been lucky to only have myself condemned, plus my descendents for three generations, to wearing the garb.
I can't get over the use of the language. To be "relaxed" was to be burned at the stake. That experience would, I guess, ultimately relax the body, but WOW. Apparently if you were a good condemned person, you would be garroted before your body was burned.
Sentences were known to the Inquisition but those under their authority only learned of their sentence during the Auto de fe (accent over the E). It was a huge public spectacle, held in the town square.
This is one of the definitions of the Auto de fe:
“Public and solemn reading of the summary of the procesos of the Santo Ofício, and of the sentences pronounced by the Inquisitors, in the presence of the defendants or effigies which represent them, with the participation of all proper authorities, particularly the Judge, to whom are presented all the people and statues condemned to relaxation, so that sentences of death and fire may be pronounced, according to the laws of the State against heretics, and carried out; for that purpose having been prepared the quemadero, the wood and equipment necessary for garroting, with previous warning by the Inquisitors.”
Juan A. Llorente, in Palácios, El Auto de Fé de 1680.
Shiver.
Never would have lived to see my 30s in those days; nosiree.
Deems
July 14, 2006 - 08:42 am
Hi marni--We were posting at the same time and used about the same language to describe our reactions to the information on the link from Amparo.
would you have escaped being "relaxed"?
marni0308
July 14, 2006 - 09:03 am
I think I would have escaped. I'm a total chicken. I would have been very good and very careful.
Joan Pearson
July 14, 2006 - 09:27 am
Besides which, Marni, you are very funny - the king would have loved and protected you! The Spanish Inquisition, as I understood it, was more into prosecuting those whose actions were treasonous, treacherous threats to the state.
I'm worried now that you don't see the baby in the bath water passage, which would then indicate that Raffel has taken greater liberties that I would have thought! Here's the passage...about one page into Chapter 9 - right after DQ mistakes the gothic church for Dulcinea's castle. (I searched for a picture of this church in Toboso. As I understand it, the church, which has undergone much renovation and extention, is still standing there, but I cannot find a photo of it anywhere.)
After Sancho convinces his master that it is the custom in Toboso to build castles on dead end streets and tells him that he'll go hunt for it though he'd rather be eaten by dogs..."Speak respectfully, Sancho, when you speak of my lady's property," said Don Quixote. "Let's not spoil the party; let's not throw out the baby with the bath water."
Can't wait to hear how Grossman translated this. Can't wait to hear how you see it in Spanish, Amparo!
Deems
July 14, 2006 - 10:21 am
Here's her translation of the same passage:
"Speak with respect, Sancho, of the things that pertain to my lady," said Don Quixote, "and let us be patient: we shall not give up."
Now it's up to Amparo to translate the Spanish for us.
Deems
July 14, 2006 - 10:29 am
Question 2 for Chap. 9 above may also come from a translation that is less than clear. Here's what Grossman has:
Don Quixote: "Simply because I say I have not seen or spoken to the lady of my soul, it does not mean that you must also say you have not spoken to her or seen her, when just the opposite is true, as you well know."
Just above Sancho has said that he has not seen Dulcinea and DQ responds, "That cannot be. At least you told me that you saw her sifting wheat, when you brought me her answer to the letter I sent with you."
"Don't depend on that, Senor," responded Sancho, "because I want you to know that I only heard about seeing her and bringing you her answer, and I have as much idea who the lady Culcinea is as I have chances to punch the sky."
And then the part that is in question 2 for Chapter 9.
Have I confused everyone enough?
Maryal
hats
July 14, 2006 - 10:53 am
JoanP, I don't see a baby either. I might have missed that part.
Deems
July 14, 2006 - 10:57 am
No, Hats, you didn't miss it--there's no baby. There's also no "party." I suspect that Raffel's translation is broader. I think Grossman sticks pretty close to the Spanish.
hats
July 14, 2006 - 10:58 am
Maryal, that's good to hear about Grossman.
Joan Pearson
July 14, 2006 - 11:47 am
Amparo asks..."I don't know how your translators manage with all the plethora of proverbs, they being just about the only thing Sancho get correct in pronouncing." So far, I see both translations missing the mark if there was a proverb in that line. I'd be very disappointed in Raffel if she just stuck in the baby on her own. Here's Shelton...the searchable translation in the heading, same passage -
"Speak respectfully of what belongs to my lady, Sancho," said Don
Quixote; "let us keep the feast in peace, and not throw the rope after
the bucket."
I have to say that Grossman's, "let us be patient: we shall not give up" leaves me cold
IF the Spanish includes a proverb here.
We'll have to be patient ourselves, and wait for Amparo to locate the passage.
Let's conduct another experiment...Chapter 9, first paragraph ~ the inhabitants of Toboso, asleep, "
snoring like logs" (That's Raffel, what do Grossman and Smollett have to say?
hats
July 14, 2006 - 11:51 am
JoanP, here is Grossman.
.....sleeping like logs, as the saying goes." No difference, right?
hats
July 14, 2006 - 11:54 am
JoanP, I did have a question. In chapter viii, the word "discalced" is used. Here is the line.
"it happened so recently, it's fair to say that--they canonized or beatified two discalced friars, and the iron chains they used to bind and torture their bodies are now thought to bring great good luck..."
What do all these words mean? "beatified and discalced friars."
hats
July 14, 2006 - 12:00 pm
I think this footnote in Grossman is interesting.
This is the sentence.
"We have come to the church, Sancho."
Footnote:
"This statement is one of the best known in the novel, for it has been interpreted as meaning that Don Quixote and Sancho have "run into" the church in the sense of coming into dangerous conflict with the institution. The sentence is sometimes cited using another verb to underscore the meaning: topar (the verb used by Sancho just a few lines down) rather than dar. According to Martin de Riquer, this...."
hats
July 14, 2006 - 12:04 pm
I like some of the proverbs. I don't know what their interpretation would read like in Spanish. Here are two proverbs I like.
Chapter IX
"...enclosed a thousand wise statements within the circle of a few brief words..."
Chapter X
"because truth may be stretched thin and not break, and it always floats on the surface of the lie, like oil on water."
hats
July 14, 2006 - 12:06 pm
In Chapter X I worry about Sancho, he is talking to himself. That's alright, I guess. The problem is Sancho is also answering himself.
hats
July 14, 2006 - 12:16 pm
Marni, I agree about relaxing and burning. I don't understand why the two words are used together. Using "relax" with "burn" makes it all seem more sadistic.
ALF
July 14, 2006 - 01:09 pm
Today, I am here- present and accounted for. I am so tired of pleading reason for my absence and I do apologise to our fine mentors, Joan and Maryal. All that I can say is the cabin in the Adirondacks has no TV, no telephone and no computer. It has taught me that my next purchase should definetly be a lap top.
I have read all of the posts that I've missed this week and will now read the text. (I guess that is backwards.) Our fearless leader believes that Chapter 6 is the one of most importance, so I have to read everything before I am able to agree or disagree to that fact. I have really enjoyed the comments about the Impossible Dream. That song has long held a soft spot in my heart. Honest- I speak the truth. I used to be very "close"to an Italian gentleman that sang that song on a daily basis. He was, what shall I say? (He was connected with many Italian cohorts, if you get my drift.)
Any hoo, he loved this song and it used to drive me crazy when I heard his sad baritone voice, singing this is my quest, to follow that star
no matter how hopeless
no matter how far.
< I listened and wondered doesn't he know that he HAD a choice? HA! That was a joke, there was no choice for him.
He had already chosen his life's path, many years before but when I heard him singing the Impossible Dream, it saddened me. His arms were always weary and truly he believed
To this glorious quest
That my heart will lie peaceful and calm
When I'm laid to my rest.
So-ooo with that said while HE was seeking the impossible, he denied himself the possible-- ME!
ALF
July 14, 2006 - 01:11 pm
Now back to the Don's quest.
Deems
July 14, 2006 - 01:25 pm
There you are, Andy! Welcome back from the cabin. I do hope you had indoor plumbing. I can do without the rest of it, but I do have certain demands.
What a wonderful story of your very own Italian gentleman. I'll bet he's sorry to this day to have lost YOU. And if he isn't, he would be if he knew how well you turned out. Ah, romance!
Laptops are great, but you also need an internet connection. Don't forget that.
Maryal
ALF
July 14, 2006 - 01:45 pm
- internet connection. Oh my yes-- the gentleman knows. Indeed, he knows.
I love this when his niece argues with him and tells him he is delusional to make himself vigorous when he is indeed old, strong when he is sickly and able to put straight what is crooked when he, himself is bent by age . How true. How true. He persists in confounding me when he says "I can tell you somewhat about birth that would astonish you; but not to mix up things human and divine, I will refrain." WHAT is that all about?
He gives examples of all of the four confusing lineages he believes to exist. Is Cervantes stepping here where no man , at that time, dared to go? Which category would the Don place himself?
He believes that he maintains virtue, but--- he is not affable, well bred or courteous. He's not gentle-mannered. He IS however haughty and arrogant and censorious. Charitable? Well- what has he to give but his confounded dreams? and because he was born under the planet Mars he: "must travel in spite of all the world,
and it will be labour in vain for you to urge me to resist what heaven
wills, fate ordains, reason requires, and, above all, my own
inclination favours; for knowing as I do the countless toils that
are the accompaniments of knight-errantry, I know, too, the infinite
blessings that are attained by it; I know that the path of virtue is
very narrow, and the road of vice broad and spacious; I know their
ends and goals are different, for the broad and easy road of vice ends
in death, and the narrow and toilsome one of virtue in life, and not
transitory life, but in that which has no end;" he argues with the niece.
I'm sorry Hats, I don't see where the Don has changed too much. The guy is still a trifle whacky and I do whacky well.
Mippy
July 14, 2006 - 01:49 pm
Well, now that we've established Grossman doesn't like to throw out babies with bathwater,
I'd like to jump to the part about Sancho selecting the peasant girls riding donkeys, instead of admitting he cannot find Dulcinea.
Is the humor too broad? ... damsels are all shining gold, all strand of pearls, etc.
Is DQ that gullible? Are we supposed to admire Sancho for fooling DQ ?
It's too pathetic. I've lost the feeling of this being funny, what am I missing?
hats
July 14, 2006 - 01:50 pm
Alf, I think both Don Q and Sancho are wacky. I can top you in wackiness, I bet!
Deems
July 14, 2006 - 02:02 pm
Mippy--That's exactly the passage I was about to jump to because I love the idea in chap 10 that Sancho can make Don Q. believe that three peasant girls are lovely damsels!
To provide a bridge from the previous topic of translation and whether or not there is a proverb in the original (babies, ropes after buckets, etc.) I typed out two passages, one from Raffel, one from Grossman so we could detect differences.
Apologies to those reading other translators such as the online one.
Maybe I'd better make a new post to make sure that it all fits in.
Back in a moment.
Deems
July 14, 2006 - 02:05 pm
Passage from Chap 10. First Raffel:
“If that’s how it is,” said Don Quijote, “you must be bringing good tidings.”
“So good,” replied Sancho, “that all your grace has to do is spur Rocinante and ride out in the open and you’ll see your Lady Dulcinea del Toboso, who’s coming, with two other damsels, expressly to see your grace.”
“Mother of God: What are you saying Sancho, my friend?” said Don Quijote. “Now, don’t play tricks on me—don’t try to relieve my very real sadnesses with false happinesses.”
“What good would it do me to trick your grace,” replied Sancho, “especially when it won’t take you long to find out if I’m telling the truth or not? Go on, my lord, spur your horse and come, and you’ll see the princess, our mistress, all dressed up and hung with jewels—or, in other words, like the princess she is. She and her damsels are a glowing golden ember, all clusters of pearls—all diamonds, all rubies, all folds of brocade worked to ten layers deep; their hair hangs loose down their shoulders, like so many sunbeams playing in the wind; and, most impressively of all, they’re riding on three spotted palsies—the best ones you’ve ever seen.”
You mean palfreys, Sancho.”
“What’s the difference?” replied Sancho. “Palsies, palfreys: whatever they’re riding, they’re the most elegant ladies you could ask for, especially the Princess Dulcinea, my lady, who’s absolutely overwhelming.”
And here’s the same passage by Grossman:
“That means,” replied Don Quixote, “that you bring good news.”
“So good,’ responded Sancho, “that all your grace has to do is spur Rocinante and ride into the open and you’ll see the lady Dulcinea of Toboso, who is coming to see your grace with two of her damsels.”
“Holy God! What are you saying, Sancho, my friend!” said Don Quixote. “Do not deceive me, or try to lighten my true sorrows with false joys.”
“What good would it do me to deceive your grace,” responded Sancho, “especially since you’re so close to discovering that what I say is true? Use your spurs, Senor, and come with me, and you’ll see the princess riding toward us, our mistress, all dressed and adorned, like the person she is. She and her damsels are all shining gold, all strands of pearls, all diamonds, all rubies, all brocade cloth ten levels high, their hair, hanging loose down their backs, is like rays of the sun dancing in the wind; but of all, they’re riding three piebald pilfers, the prettiest sight you’ll ever see.”
“You mean palfreys, Sancho.”
“There’s not much difference,” responded Sancho, “between pilfers and palfreys, but no matter what they’re riding, they’re the best-looking ladies anybody could want to see, especially my lady the Princess Dulcinea, who dazzles the senses.”
hats
July 14, 2006 - 02:05 pm
That is so funny about the peasant girls. Those girls weren't attractive either, maybe homely. Don Q isn't that crazy.
ALF
July 14, 2006 - 02:07 pm
He's breaking out! cries the housekeeper.
"What part of his body has burst, "asks Samson, the bachelor of Salamanca, who then tells her to run home and cook his breakfast before a miracle can be performed. Now how can you not roll in glee with that part of the story, ladies? This is funny stuff, especially with Sancho's new found vocabulary (his pearls of wisdom) that the Don continues to correct. Poor ole Sancho just wants to have fixed wages, nothing worong with that, is there?
I'm sure Teresa had insisted on the promotion even though the Don doesn't wish to disturb the ancient usage of knight errantry and threatens poor Sancho with finding another squire, to accompany him, who is "less thick-headed and talkative.". hahahaaa --- funny stuff.
hats
July 14, 2006 - 02:09 pm
I know!! That part cracked me up. I am laughing all over again.
Deems
July 14, 2006 - 02:10 pm
Sorry about the double spacing. I wish I could figure out how to make paragraphs indent properly on SeniorNet. Then I wouldn't have to have all those spaces.
Anyhoo, both translators convey the same information, but they take different paths.
What a good job Sancho does in describing how beautiful these three (not beautiful) peasant girls are. What exaggeration! Both translators point out that three layers of brocade were the maximum and that Sancho exaggerates here. Sancho is using Don Quixote's own imagination and misconception against him and finally he wins. Don Quixote believes that the enchanter who is after him denies him the true vision of Dulcinea and lets him see only peasant girls on mules.
I love Chapter 10.
Traude S
July 14, 2006 - 03:31 pm
Welcome back, ANDY!
We've come to an important point:
DQ actually DOES see these young women for what they are, and they are nothing remotely like a lady, or the lady he fancies and has created, Dulcinea. For once he perceives reality! Is this a turning point? Are the scales falling off his eyes? At least briefly?
Deems
July 14, 2006 - 03:47 pm
Traude, maybe the scales are falling from his eyes, but it could be that Don Quixote can only see what he imagines rather than what others imagine for him.
Those evil enchanters sure are useful, though, aren't they?
What excuse could Sancho offer without them?
Joan Pearson
July 14, 2006 - 04:54 pm
Buckets of boiling bathwater!!! What's going on in here! You're all having a party while I'm out...who is minding that baby???
Andy...your impossible dream tugs my own heart. -
"So HE was seeking the impossible, he denied himself the possible-- ME!" Golly, I'm wondering if we all don't have an impossible dream story to tell. I do, but it's more one of denying the dream and settling for the possible. Don't you think that's more difficult to live with?
I loved it too when the niece told him that he was too old, too sickly to follow his dream. She told him that he was also too poor to be a knight errant. Andy, I think that is what Don Quixote was talking about when he said he could tell astonishing things about birth that would astonish.
This was Cervantes introduction to comment on the "four confusing lineages" as you put it. I did sense that Cervantes was stepping into territory where not many had gone before him. Cervantes was all about equality - for all, and railed against the obstacles of gender, lack of education and social rank.
What I like best is that he entertains , doesn't pontificate...makes his points with such humor folks hardly knew they are being laughed at. And while you laugh at Sancho, you have to admit, that he is pretty darn smart, a quick learner and can hold his own with the best of them. I'm wondering if he hasn't become a tad too smart in Chapter X when he figures out how to turn the Don's madness against him.
Joan Pearson
July 14, 2006 - 05:11 pm
Maryal, thank you for giving us a sample of a passage from each translation - as Sancho would say, "pilfers and palfreys not much difference..." It's those proverbs I'm looking for! You'll admit there is a difference there!
To indent a paragraph, simply use this little formula - don't forget to use the closing tag or it will stay indented:
<BLOCKQUOTE>...TEXT....</BLOCKQUOTE>
Amparo, we are giving you some Spanish homework tonight...to check those proverbs - we really want to know what Cervantes DID say. I kind of liked the Shelton translation..."Let's not throw away the rope with the bucket." Will you share, just a few of the proverbs from Spanish? Your input is invaluable - how many gold pieces do we owe you?
Do you suppose that Raffel added to the cacophony of the sleeping animals by translating to read - "snoring logs"? Yes, it's almost the same thing, Hats,"sleeping like a log" Does the snoring have something to do with "sawing wood"? I really wish I were able to read this in Spanish!
Oh and I loved the line you quote, Hats - "the truth, floating on the surface of the lie, like oil on water." Lots of oil and water in Chapter X!
Joan Pearson
July 14, 2006 - 06:14 pm
Hats, am thumbing back to Chapter IX to find the context Grossman's footnote relates to here..."We have come to the church*, Sancho."
Footnote: "This statement is one of the best known in the novel, for it has been interpreted as meaning that Don Quixote and Sancho have "run into" the church in the sense of coming into dangerous conflict with the institution.
I'm glad you provided the footnote. I remember thinking when I read it that it was a pointed comment. Raffel has it - "We've hit upon the Church, Sancho." Remember the contest? He thought he was looking at the royal palace, and it was really the church? Can it mean that the Church was the real power behind the King?
*************************************** the decalced friars
"They canonized or beatified two discalced friars." What do all these words mean? "beatified and discalced friars."
Hats - beatification is the first step towards canonizing a saint. A "discalced friar" friar is a barefoot friar, a mendicant who worked for the poor. Here's a link on the
Order of Discalced Friars Apparently King Phillip had issued an edict against this order expanding in Spain in 1575... St, Teresa of Avila is one of the more prominent of these mendicants and St. John of the cross. It seems there was conflict between the "calced and the discalced" those with shoes, those not
There was probably more to it than shoes. Anyway, the upshot was that the two who became saints, were canonized, prevailed and they were allowed to continue as Carmelites. I'm not certain if those are the two Sancho refers to, but it sounds as if they are, since they were canonized. Sancho's point...it is easier for a barefooted beggar, wearing a hairshirt, or self-flaggelating with chains to earn fame than a knight errant. Hope this helps.
Deems
July 14, 2006 - 06:59 pm
OK, here we go with the great experiment to see if I can get and indented paragraph. But I didn't type long enough to see if it really works. This should make a long enough line.
And then another one.
Which is what you need when you have two people, like say DQ and Sancho talking back and forth.
Joan P! I need something else. This indents the whole block of text. I want to indent only the beginning of a paragraph? And then have the remainder of the text come out to the margin?
ALF
July 14, 2006 - 07:40 pm
JOAN- you said:
"Golly, I'm wondering if we all don't have an impossible dream story to tell. I do, but it's more one of denying the dream and settling for the possible. Don't you think that's more difficult to live with?"
I don't know if it would be worse denying yourself something and settling for the "possible" or not. My dear Italian friend had his choice to live " in the familia" or NOT. He chose to stay. I am NOT (at this stage of my existence) happy denying myself anything. I have a waistline that will prove it this year.
1amparo
July 14, 2006 - 08:30 pm
"We have come to the church*, Sancho." It is very close to what Cervantes wrote:"Con la Iglesia hemos dado, Sancho"
"With the church we have clash, Sancho"
And the proverb: "...no arrojemos la soga tras el caldero" = "Let's not throw away the rope with the cauldron , but bucket will do.
No people snoring on chapter ix:"sus vecinos dormian y reposaban a pierna tendida"
"its people were sleep and resting like logs"
Proverbs in chapter x?; it is chock-a-block with them!
Amparo
Joan Pearson
July 14, 2006 - 08:35 pm
Amparo...change the spelling from BLOKEQUOTE to BLOCKQUOTE and you'll do just fine. I'm on my way to bed and look forward to reading your post in the morning! To sleep perchance to dream?
1amparo
July 14, 2006 - 08:37 pm
does not work for me Joan.
1amparo
July 14, 2006 - 10:20 pm
after the indentation does not go back to margin, where it should. Mind you I am watching Placido Domingo in an old production of Tosca... between acts... I write.
Might try again later.
Amparo
1amparo
July 14, 2006 - 11:19 pm
Proverbs:
"que buen corazón quebranta mala aventura"
"donde no hay tocinos, no hay estacas"
"donde no piensan salta la liebre."
I don't know any of these in English, but I shall have a go:
"a good heart breaks a bad deed"
"where there is no bacon, there is no stake"
"where no one thinks of jumps the hare."
More proverbs in the chapter but these should be enough for me. And lets see if indents work.
Amparo
hats
July 15, 2006 - 12:04 am
JoanP, thank you. That is very interesting about discalced Friars. Thank you for researching the information and finding a link. I suppose the shoeless friar might relate to the poor better than the one wearing shoes. Without shoes that friar might seem more humble, more sacrificing than the one with shoes.
Amparo, thank you for sharing your translation. I like the word "clash."
Amparo's translation or book,
"Con la Iglesia hemos dado, Sancho"
"With the church we have clash, Sancho"
1amparo
July 15, 2006 - 12:51 am
Yes Hats, very clever and subtle way to tell the world Cervantes is at loggerheads with the church!
hats
July 15, 2006 - 01:31 am
Amparo, If only I could speak Spanish.....
Joan Pearson
July 15, 2006 - 06:41 am
Good morning! Let's hear it for the Impossible Dream! The waistline! Do we need to count calories in, calories out - rather than sheep as we dream, Andy?
Maryal, I'm sorry the Blockquote code didn't work for you. As far as I know there isn't a simple code to indent the first line in a paragraph. You can create a style sheet at the top of each document to indent every paragraph, but I don't think it is anything you want to do each time you post.
You might try this coding to create spaces where you want to indent. You use these symbols without any <..> brackets at all. Here's what you do...
Type the following letters/symbols all together. I can't do it here or it will show up as a space - not show up at all.
It's important that you type them all together, no spaces between them. Each time you put in this code, there will be one space. You'll want to copy and paste them about five times to indent the paragraph. Do you have a place you store html code - so you can copy and paste it quickly? I've inserted five sets of symbols at the start of this paragraph to give you an idea how it shows Should show a five space indent. Here are the symbols:
& n b s p ;
******************************************************************
Amparo! You've mastered the BLOCKQUOTE, I see. Isn't it neat - and easy? Amparo, thank you so much for the Spanish translation of the proverbs...(I'm with you Hats, I want to learn Spanish - and go to Spain too!)
Let's not throw about the rope with the bucket. Well, at least I see where Raffel got the bucket of water. I picture a well, a rope and a pail...letting go of the rope, you've lose the bucket. Now where did Raffel get the baby out of that?
Raffel also has the log "snoring" - the Spanish has them simply resting. Raffel seems to include an extra leap in her imagination.
Will go now and read the posts about Chapter X and check the additional proverbs you've translated from this chapter...the good heart breaks a bad deed; where there is no bacon; there is no stake, where no one thinks, the hare jumps....
Thank you SO much for your time Amparo! Hopefully we didn't keep you from Placido too long!
Back shortly - coffee break!
Mippy
July 15, 2006 - 06:51 am
Off subject on opera:
Gosh, Amparo, I would have loved to see Placido in Tosca!
We have lots of his audio CDs, but its hard to find good DVDs.
Everyone ~
Do keep on with all the proverbs, they are all quite interesting. Especially to compare with the Spanish.
I'm curious to see others' opinions on role reversal (question above), as I cannot decide where Cervantes is going, making Sancho so much smarter than he used to be; Vol. 1 was only a few weeks earlier.
Joan Pearson
July 15, 2006 - 07:11 am
Mippy, I'm concerned about the role reversal here too. What's worse I'm beginning to question Sancho's feelings for his master. Are we supposed to believe that the two are "buddies"?
Hats worries in Chapter X that Sancho is talking to himself. It's the answer he comes up with that I'm uncomfortable with...and I'm not sure why. Is it because it is out of character for Sancho to be so calculating as to conclude that he will use Don Q's madness to delude him into thinking that the country gal is Dulcinea. I guess he is certain that Don Q is mad, huh? You have to wonder why he is out there with him? Does he think he might happen upon another bag of gold?
The other thing...he seems almost cruel, breaking his master's heart with the embellished picture he paints of Dulcinea. I never thought of Sancho as cruel.
Another reason he might be on the trail with his "mad" master is that he loves him and wants to see him happy. But how can this make him happy? Look how dejected his master is, knowing that Sancho can see his beautiful Dulcinea and all he sees is the country girl with the garlic breath! Mippy asks if we're supposed to be admiring Sancho for fooling his master? I'm with you, Mippy - it's too sad to be funny. The situation of the deeply disappointed knight is "pathetic," I'll agree.
The writing is humorous, the scene Hats describes of the three unattractive peasant girls defending themselves from Don Quixote's advances is very funny. They've seen it all these girls, they know when men are giving them the business. Hats, do you see hope here for Don Q.? He is not so far gone that he cannot smell garlic! Wasn't there a time that his imagination could explain away ANYTHING?
Traudee asks - "Is this a turning point? Are the scales falling off his eyes?" Do you think he is coming to grips with reality? It seems they both are - but Sancho is using it to manipulate his master. I'm mad at Sancho.
I'm going to check Raffel on the proverbs Amparo translated last night...Mippy, which translation are you reading?
Joan Pearson
July 15, 2006 - 07:31 am
Amparo's translation from the Spanish-
Proverbs:
"que buen corazón quebranta mala aventura" - "a good heart breaks a bad deed"
"donde no hay tocinos, no hay estacas"
- "where there is no bacon, there is no stake"
"donde no piensan salta la liebre."
- "where no one thinks of jumps the hare."
I'll copy Raffel's paragraph which contains same three proverbs -
"A good heart wins out over bad luck, and when there's no pig, there's no fence, and they also say that just when you don't expect it, you find a hare jumping out."
I have to say that Raffel does a good job of capturing the Spanish meaning, don't you? In the context of the whole paragraph I'm left with the feeling that Sancho did not premeditate his deception. He started out in the morning trying to figure out what to do about finding Dulcinea and the "hare jumped out" unexpectedly in the form of the ugly peasant girl.
I'm thinking that Sancho lives by these proverbs he's heard, just as Don Q. lives by the tales of knight-errantry that he's read.
Deems
July 15, 2006 - 08:04 am
Good morning, all. Today is play day in West Virginia again. Tonight the play is in the studio theater. These plays are often the best ones, and I like theater in the horseshoe. People are seated to the left, right, and center of the stage, usually. One play I remember we were surrounding the two actors. That was a very good play, "Coyote on a Fence."
Sounds like a proverb from Don Quixote, doesn't it?
Joan P, I'm with you. I think Sancho has gotten himself into somewhat of a fix having invented a trip to see Dulcinea in Part I (when he gave her the words of DQ's letter which he had memorized) and having told Quixote that she was sifting wheat etc, etc, he now cannot make DQ believe that it was just something he heard.
He does try to get out from under that original lie, but it doesn't work. DQ tells him that just because HE (DQ) has never seen Dulcinea, Sancho doesn't have to pretend that he didn't see her.
So he has that intriguing conversation with himself and comes upon the idea (that leaping hare) of providing the peasant girls for his master. He has every reason to think it will work, given DQ's propensity for seeing what he wants to. And he does a magnificent job feeding DQ's imagination, telling him what to see.
It doesn't work; fortunately, he can chalk the whole disappointment up to those enchanters who are enemies of Quixote. I don't see the action so much as cruel as Sancho's participation in the make-believe world they inhabit. Sancho temporarily takes the role of DQ and provides the "adventure."
See you all tomorrow. Much to do around here before we take off for the hills of W Va. "Country roads, take me home, to the place I belong--West Virginia Mountain Moma, take me home, country roads."
Deems
July 15, 2006 - 08:06 am
Coolllll it works! The secret code. Without the pointed brackets.
thanks, Joan, but it would be tiresome to have to do that to indent every time the speaker changes. We need more sophisticated software around here.
Traude S
July 15, 2006 - 09:36 am
Not to know how to indent has long been a vexing problem for me, technically inept as I am. I'm delighted there is a way and now I'm going to try it.
Will get to JOAN's intriguing questions as soon as possible.
Traude S
July 15, 2006 - 09:46 am
Not quite Eureka, but getting closer ...
It really would be cause for jubilation for me if I could get this to work, especially for my submissions to WREX, even though not all writers there indent. (Could it be because they don't know how?)
After all, indented paragraphs are not out of fashion in books!
Mippy
July 15, 2006 - 09:52 am
My copy is the Grossman.
ALF
July 15, 2006 - 11:34 am
Did Cervantes write Part II in the same manner that he composed Part I? Wasn't it a serial story, week by week? I love the way he recaps Chapter X after the Don (with a heart no bigger than a hazel nut) orders Sancho to do his bidding. I can honestly say the Don is smitten Has anyone here ever known a man who thinks like the Don regarding his beloved? He wants to know how she readjusts herself on her cushion, how she hides in the "recesses of her heart." hmmm- I never have, but wouldn't that be exciting?
HUH? I thought Sancho had flipped his batter? However, thank you Joan for the proper translation to:"a stout heart breaks bad luck and where there are no
fletches there are no pegs?" The real translation is pigs. In the electronic text it says PEGS. I was a tad confused.
Joan Pearson
July 16, 2006 - 06:03 am
"Sancho temporarily takes the role of DQ and provides the "adventure." Maryal, do you think Sancho's new role is "temporary"? Our knight seems to be in a period of disequilibrium. Less conviction in his goals and fantasies. Andy reminds us that Sancho sees him with such little heart - no bigger than the size of a hazel nut. And now, he is even in worse shape than when they entered Toboso.
I've been thinking about Don Quixote and how he came to identify Aldonza as his Dulcinea in the very beginning. He tells Sancho he has never seen her, but has heard tell of her remarkable beauty and wisdom. Now WE know that's not the case. The province is not broadcasting any such thing. So how does our aging Don choose her as his Dulcinea? Didn't the story go that he had in fact SEEN her before, but never expressed his feelings for her? When in his right mind, wouldn't he KNOW what she looked like? Wouldn't he KNOW that the peasant girl Sancho points out is NOT Aldonza?
Andy, no one was ever that attentive to my every move or mood either. Don't feel bad, I don't think any lover was ever as keenly interested in every move of his loved one - this is just make-believe from the old tales of chivalry Don Q. loved to read!
So...today we see them off to Zaragoza, but first I must ask - did you see Sancho as they left town... "our cunning Sancho - had a hard time stifling his laughter, hearing what nonsense his deftly deceived master was babbling." Have a heart, Sancho!
Joan Pearson
July 16, 2006 - 06:05 am
Andy, no, I never heard that these episodes were published in serial form. It would surprise me if they were - though they seem to be separate episodes that would lend themselves to serialization. There will be more adventures before the tournament at Zaragosa. It will be interesting to see how they compare to the earlier ones - a month ago. Mippy, both characters, especially our Don do seem to have gone through a remarkable change since we last saw them. Let's watch Don Quixote to see how he deals with new foes - and if his transformation was only "temporary." Maybe his spirits will pick up when he gets back out on the road away from the harsh reality of Toboso.
They no sooner get out of town when the first "adventure" presents itself....
The cart of travelling actors...described by Raffel as "the Parliament of Death." A strange assortment of costumes - Death - (with a human face) - a demon, an angel, the emperor, the knight. I'm not sure how they fit into the play they were performing, but can imagine the impact they had on our travelling knight and squire! What did the "Parliament of Death" cast sound like to you?
Deems
July 16, 2006 - 08:33 am
Andy--Don Quixote was published as a book; there were no serial publications. I don't know when serialization became the way to go. Certainly by the 19th century with Dickens, Thackeray, Eliot, it was the common practice. But first you have to have magazines which weren't available at the time.
So, we have a complete book published in 1605, then a Part 2 which wasn't written by Cervantes, then, apparently in reaction to the theft of his characters (and some bad writing) Cervantes finally gets together the legitimate Part 2 and publishes it in 1615.
I think magazines get their start in the 18th century. Will have to do some research on this topic.
Play last night was only OK, nothing edgy despite being in the studio theater (the black box) where often the plays are experimental. This one, Jazzland, was very predictable and although the acting was good, I was disappointed. But dinner was good, Shepherdstown is always fun, and the drive there is beautiful, especially the road between Frederick, Maryland and Harpers Ferry, W VA. Lovely lovely country with mountains and farm land.
Joan P--I don't know if Sancho has changed for good, but he is developing into more of a rounded character. Don Quixote seems to have forgotten about inventing Dulcinea based on a peasant girl. This indicates to me that Dulcinea, the creature of his fabrication, has become more real to him than the real world that surrounds him.
Don Quixote also seems to be more gloomy than ever. He now thinks of himself as the target of those enchanters he always speaks of--it's as if he has grown into the name Sancho gave him in Part I--the Knight of the Sorrowful Countenance--or whatever we're calling it in the various translations.
Amparo--Thank you for being here and answering all our language related questions. I can't imagine this discussion without you.
Hats--Can't imagine you're not being here either.
Mippy--And you
Marni--and you
Phyll---WHERE are you, girl?
Who am I missing?
Ahhhhhh, Joan K and Pat H----where are you guys????
And Traude, missing her too.
Who else, Joan P?
ALF
July 16, 2006 - 08:34 am
ALF
July 16, 2006 - 09:07 am
What is a "noddie?"
Well we find another proverb here: .."and leaving Time to take his own course; for he is the best physician for these and greater ailments."
In translation- Time heals all wounds.
WHAT? The delusional Don, greeting the traveling acting company has accepted the fact that he must avoid illusions? Why has he changed?
Who's on first begins again cracking me up witnessing the toppling of DonQ and Rocinante and the flight of Sancho's ass's tail ( Dapple.) The dancing devil, spiriting away with Sanchos ass. What a hilarious picture that is to behold.
To whom is Cervantes directing his insult to with "take my advice and never meddle with actors, for they are a favoured class?" Was it Shakespeare? Speaking of The Bard, I am going to a 2 hour presentation by a Shakepearian scholar who actually becomes The Bard. That evening (Tuesday) <The Tempest will be performed in the park and I'm going to take the girls.
Back to Don Q.
Phyll
July 16, 2006 - 09:12 am
Help me! Help me! I've fallen and I can't get up!
I hate this book! I hate these people! Don Quixote irritates me and Sancho is turning cruel! I don't like any of these people! What shall I do? I am trying so hard to read this book and get the same enjoyment from it that the rest of you seem to be getting but I am having such a hard time. Tell me what to do!
More and more often I find myself leading my donkey over to the shade of the lemon trees and just whiling away the hours by the roadside while all of my friends ride on without me.
Maybe I need more wine, more Dulcinea melon, and more Manchego cheese.
Deems
July 16, 2006 - 09:28 am
There's Phyll!!
O dear, o dear, Phyll. What translation are you reading? Which people don't you like? Have you made it up to Part II? Part II is what makes Don Quixote what it is. Part II is different. It's written later, has more depth, more character development and all sorts of good things. We haven't even gotten to the Lion episode yet (Amparo's favorite so it must be good).
Yes, you definitely are in need of watering and feeding. Melon, wine, cheese, whatever you need.
Phyll
July 16, 2006 - 10:01 am
I was reading the Starkie translation that I checked out of the library but I was also listening to the Grossman trans. on CD (also from the library). I liked the Grossman much better but missed all her footnotes on the CD.
I just get so irritated with the characters and their irrational actions and re-actions. I liked Sancho at the beginning but he is changing, I think, and I am finding him less likable. I AM liking Roscinante and Dabble (Sancho's donkey) more. Why can't we be like the animals?
I have just finished Chap. 12 and liked the proverbs contained in that. I thought about you and your "not so great" play when I read where Cervantes wrote that when the actors removed their costumes they were all the same. In the end, isn't that true of all us? The grave is a great leveler.
hats
July 16, 2006 - 12:06 pm
HiPhyll, I am glad you are back. It's great having you on the trail.
Maryal, I have just started on chapter xi. I can't wait to see what's going to happen. JoanP, I am at this moment going to look at the questions in this heading.
What troubles or adventures can Don Q and Sancho get into next? I can hear Amparo laughing.
Phyll
July 16, 2006 - 12:13 pm
I think you have a better understanding, and appreciation, of Don Q. than I and perhaps some of it will rub off on me. I hope you don't mind if I tag along behind.
hats
July 16, 2006 - 12:17 pm
Phyll, you must hang onto Amparo's tail. Amparo is from Spain. She is helping all of us. I hope Amparo's tail doesn't fall off. There are a lot of us behind her trusting her donkey to carry us across in one piece.
Phyll
July 16, 2006 - 12:33 pm
I would not be so familiar as that! She would not take kindly to my aproaching her tail!
But I DO hang on to Amparo's words for her knowlege is so helpful.
And if she is awake in Australia she would correct me and tell me that Sancho's donkey is named Dapple, NOT Dabble!
hats
July 16, 2006 - 12:38 pm
Phyll, thank you for reminding me that Amparo. is now in Australia. Hold on!!
Joan Pearson
July 16, 2006 - 12:48 pm
Oh, I agree, Hats! - we've all got our tails pinned on Amparo's donkey...to help us through the differing translations of the proverbs AND to share her life-long enthusiasm for this novel!
Phyll, we know of your determination to finish the trail...didn't know you were lounging under the lemon trees in Chapter XII waiting for us.
I'm going to agree with you - I don't LOVE these characters either. Sancho has been sounding less like any buddy I'd ever hope to have - more into the money. Mercenary. He is funny though, as he makes his point with the jumbled up irrelevant proverbs. Cervantes seems to be telling us that even the uneducated have brains.
Do you like Don Q? At this point, I'm feeling sorry for the poor man. I do admire the way he's handling his advancing years, not giving in to those who tell him his time is up and it's time to sit out on the porch in his rocking chair. He is determined to follow that dream. So I guess I admire him and feel sorry for him at the same time. Who knows, maybe these are the early stages of "liking" him.
I DO LIKE Cervantes. More than anything I am enjoying watching him, and learning about the difficult time in which he lived - and how he handled himself with humor. I LIKE ANYONE who can approach hard times like this with a smile. Things aren't "problems" for him - they are "challenges." And he seems to relish the challenges!
Phyll - I didn't know Sancho's donkey's name was "Dabble"! Thank you. Wait...Andy - is his name, Dabble or Dapple? Dapple/Dabble and Roscinante seem to be getting on better than Sancho and his master. Why can't we be like the animals? We would all be happier without the deception, wouldn't we? Let's get their names right if we are going to transfer our allegiance to the animals! OK, I just now see you refer to "Dapple" - but "Dabble" would have been an appropriate name too.
OK...Chapter XI and this strange assortment of actors. How does your translation do with Las Cortes de la Muertes? Raffel calls it "The Parliament of Death." When I heard the name I immediately thought of the Inquisition panel of judges and judged
Joan Pearson
July 16, 2006 - 01:14 pm
Andy, Cervantes has plenty to say about actors and playwrights in the upcoming chapters. I'm not sure what he means when he says ACTORS ARE A FAVOURED CLASS these days. Does it mean that the king, who is a drama enthusiast has a special place in his heart for the actors - and will protect them? Or does it mean that actors are given too much leeway in the way they interpret and act the lines that Cervantes has written? I'm not sure.
"What are noddies?" Andy asks Here's the context....
" But one thing,
senor, troubles me more than all the rest, and that is thinking what
is to be done when your worship conquers some giant, or some other
knight, and orders him to go and present himself before the beauty
of the lady Dulcinea. Where is this poor giant, or this poor wretch of
a vanquished knight, to find her? I think I can see them wandering all
over El Toboso, looking like noddies, and asking for my lady Dulcinea."
Raffel plays this one safe - and doesn't refer with a noun at all. Another homework job for Amparo!
Here's Raffel - "...I can almost see them wandering up and down, all over Toboso, looking for Lady Dulcinea..." No noddies, but the point is made - if Sancho and DOn Quixote had such difficulty finding Dulcinea in Toboso, how will the conquered knights and giants ever find her?
Don Q. thinks that maybe the enchantment won't keep them from finding her...and proposes and experiment. The next conquered knights will have to report back to him after they go to Toboso and tell them what they found there. NOW, THAT SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD IDEA, DOESN'T IT?
It does seem like Don Q. has learned a lesson on appearances after the experience with Dulcinea in Toboso. Not so quick to believe what he sees. He did manage to turn the cartload of actors into an adventure, didn't he? Even after he learned who they really were.
Joan Pearson
July 16, 2006 - 01:22 pm
Just for fun I googled "noddies" - If JoanK were here today, she'd probably have told us right off that noddies are BIRDS, relatives of TERNS. Sometimes described as "unmindful" birds -
Off for the rest of the day.
Phyll, make the lemonade, okay? We'll catch up with you in 12 tomorrow - and bring the cheese.
hats
July 16, 2006 - 01:31 pm
JoanP, thanks for a photo of the Noddie.
Joan Pearson
July 16, 2006 - 01:36 pm
Cute, aren't they, Hats? He looks a bit like a mourning dove in the picture. I think they are shore birds though. The point of the knights and conquered giants running around Toboso looking for Dulcinea to report Don Q.'s valor, like mindless noddies is well taken, I think. Better have them return to Don Q. and tell them whether they had trouble finding her.
hats
July 16, 2006 - 02:20 pm
JoanP, the noddies are cute.
Deems
July 16, 2006 - 04:26 pm
Those noddies are indeed darling, but I think it must have been a noun for idiot since Grossman does have a noun there:
It seems to me I can see them wandering around Toboso like idiots, looking for my lady Dulcinea, and even if they find her in the middle of the street, they won't recognize her any more than they'd know my father.
Now for a try at the OED.
Nope. My connection to work is down (it usually is on Sunday) so I'll have to check the OED tomorrow. Will make a sticky note so I remember.
I will also read Chaps 11 and 12 tonight to catch up with Phyll. So glad you have a tail to hold onto, Phyll, and you too Hats, and me too since I prefer to hang on to the tail of a native speaker like Amparo whenever I can. Amparo, should you check in tonight, we need to know what the original Spanish is in the section Joan and I have both cited from our two translations. It's toward the beginning of Chap 11.
As for the Actors comment, all I can think of is all those plays Cervantes wrote. He must have been well acquainted with actors. Perhaps some of them had taken it in their heads to do damage to one of his plays by giving some interpretation he did not approve of.
Shakespeare attacked some overactors in Hamlet and well as giving instructions for how he would like to have a speech delivered.
Sounds like an In joke to me.
Maryal
Deems
July 16, 2006 - 04:28 pm
OK, can't get to the OED, but there is a definition for noddy
here.
ALF
July 16, 2006 - 06:10 pm
Yes thank you the OED is on tonight. A stupid person, a jerk, a dolt. That works for me. I've never heard the word before. As far as Sanchos ass, I thought it was Dapple, did I say Dabble? I'll go back and check.
JoanK
July 16, 2006 - 09:14 pm
I've somehow gotten way behind -- especially in the posts. I've skipped some to try to catch up.
Yes, the noddy is a bird -- a sea bird. I didn't know it was called "stupid"
The bird with the really "stupid" name is (a relative of the noddy, I think, I think) the BOOBY, named by the Spanish after "bobo" stupid. Why? read this and see:
BLUE FOOTED BOOBY My grandson at age two used to love to look at bird books with me. When we got to the boobies, he would shout "booby, booby" and laugh and laugh. My daughter thought I was teaching him rude words, until I showed her the book.
boookworm
July 16, 2006 - 09:49 pm
The Smollet also <they would no more know her than they would know my father.>
I think Sancho is just using common sense to try to make life easier for the Don as will as himself--fewer futile jousts.
marni0308
July 16, 2006 - 10:21 pm
My edition has Sancho's donkey named Dapple. A footnote said Cervantes never named the donkey but that Smollett gave him the name Dapple to make it easier to refer to him.
Noddies and boobies. Funny names.
Speaking of birds, I just have to say this. Several days ago I heard a funny screeching sound outside my back door. It sounded like the sound a woodpecker made up in a tree nearby this spring - really really loud - so loud he'd wake us up early in the morning. Well, I looked out my back door and there was a Northern Flicker on the slate eating ants. Just a youngster. He's been back every day since eating ants that make ant hills around the edge of the slate walk. I'm thrilled. He's not afraid of me because he's so interested in the ants.
JoanK
July 17, 2006 - 12:37 am
MARNI: how interesting. I'd heard they ate ants, but never seen it.
1amparo
July 17, 2006 - 04:05 am
Pardiez!, pardiez!, pardiez! Dapple??? Dabble??? Every Tom, Dick and Jerry knows that Sancho’s donkey was old and his hair was grey: and
that became his name:
“RUCIO” = grey, pepper and salt, ashes (but not Cinderella!), silver…
From RAE: rucio, cia.
(Del lat. roscĭdus, de ros, rocío)
adj. Dicho de una bestia: De color pardo claro, = it is said of an animal: of light grey colour.
Me thinks someone has been reading “fake” DQ and/or the translator of that particular book has tried to change old “rucio’s” name and for it ought to be given to
Inquisitor General forthwith! (On second thoughts…. I am for ever changing people’s name…) LOL.
“
I think I can see them wandering all over El Toboso, looking like noddies, and asking for my lady Dulcinea." Cervantes wrote: ”Paréceme que los veo andar por el Toboso hechos unos
bausanes = fools, idiots,
buscando a mi señora Dulcinea.”
Amparo
1amparo
July 17, 2006 - 05:45 am
"buscando = looking- for / searching a mi señora Dulcinea.”
some of you have:
"asking"(??) for my lady Dulcinea.
Joan Pearson
July 17, 2006 - 06:22 am
What a GOOD morning!
Mention birdies - and the birders won't be too far behind! JoanK it is SOOOO good to see you here this morning! Oh, yes, please do jump on your mule and ride along with us until you catch up in the text. We've missed you!
It is amazing to me how the translations differ! How the translators take it upon themselves to add or embellish - with the explanation that they are writing in the "spirit" of what Cervantes intended to convey amazes me. To add the name of Sancho's mule - especially when the whole business of naming mules was discussed in Volume I (it just wasn't done) is puzzling...(thanks for Smollett's footnote, Marni. It helps us to understand what a translator is thinking when adding to the text in front of him when he adds "noddies" to give a visual image of the knights running around Toboso looking for Dulcinea...)
Aren't you thankful that we have Amparo in our midst to keep us true to Cervantes text? And Maryal's OED to help us understand where the translators are coming from? (noddies!) I LOVE the fact that we are reading different translations - and that you are asking these questions about what you are reading - this is adding a whole new dimension to our discussion! (and the noddies brought JoanK back to us! Super!)
Let's remember the point of the whole thing - Sheila cites this from Smollett -
"It seems to me I can see them wandering around Toboso like idiots, looking for my lady Dulcinea, and even if they find her in the middle of the street, they won't recognize her any more than they'd know my father."
If Don Q. sends the conqurered knights and giants back to Toboso to report to Dulcinea and they run around like a bunch of noddies//boobies/idiots looking for her, how does he know whether or not they were successful in finding her? This leads to the newrequirement - the conquered will be ordered to return to Don Q after they go to Toboso and let him know how they did. This might be important - or else why bring it up?
Joan Pearson
July 17, 2006 - 06:46 am
Sheila - Sancho was successul in avoiding the hail of rocks from the actors party, wasn't he? I'm looking forward to future confrontations to see whether Sancho is able to play the role of peacekeeper as well as he did here. So far, Sancho is two for two in getting them out of sticky situations and allowing the knight to go forward unscathed. He's using LOGIC that Don Q can understand to dissuade him from attacking those who have not been dubbed knights. And Sancho, "good Christian Sancho, " does not seek vengence, leaving such matters for heaven to decide....
So the next day, they move on to Zaragoza and the next adventure. I don't know what to make of this Knight of the Mirrors, do you? And there's mirror squire for Sancho too! Cervantes takes advantage of this scene to interject many of his own opinions on the theater - and play acting. In the last scene we saw Don Q. hesitate to read too much into the frightening cart of actors. He did not believe what he saw before him. How stunning to meet another knight errant on the trail...with a squire, (not as outspoken as Sancho.) Are these their alter egos? Are they mirror images? Do they reflect our knight and squire so that they may see themselves? Isn't this how Cervantes sees drama?
Deems
July 17, 2006 - 07:14 am
Following up on what
Joan P posted (welcome back,
Joan K! by the way. Good to see you)--Mirrors reflect. These particular mirrors reflect Don Q and Sancho.
Since Don Q is acting in a play of his own devising, and since there are NO knights in armor in 1600, and haven't been any for several hundred years, this "Knight of the Mirrors" has to be someone who is "onto" Don Quixote and knows where to find him.
There's only one possible candidate (if you except the barber and the priest who would not want to play into DQ's madness).
* * * * *
Amparo--Thank you for the Spanish translation. The word is IDIOT for which the translator Andy is reading substitutes NODDIES which meant Idiots at the time (in English)--my guess is that the origin of the slang word could be the bird, but I'm curious enough to look it up now that I think I can connect to work.
* * * * * *
noddy (first definition in OED)
[Origin uncertain. Perh. < NOD v. + -Y6, or perh. (in sense 1) shortened < NODDYPOLL n. Cf. later NOD n.2
In sense 2a perh. with allusion to the nodding behaviour of the birds during courtship.]
1. A fool, a simpleton. Cf. NOD n.2 Now rare.
1534 J. HEYWOOD Play of Loue sig. Ciii, Why where the deuyll is this horeson nody. 1550 J. BALE Apol. 30b, O beastly nody wythoute brayne. 1580 T. LUPTON Sivqila 14 Mighte not he bee counted a verye noddy, that woulde pay suche a fine for a Farme? 1621 R. BURTON Anat. Melancholy I. II. IV. iv. 197 He made soft fellowes starke noddies, and such as were foolish. 1648 T. GAGE Eng.-Amer. 101 In his carriage and experience in the World a simple noddy. 1682 N. O. tr. N. Boileau-Despréaux Lutrin III. 94 And there they sneaking stand like baffled Noddies. 1705 E. HICKERINGILL Priest-craft II. iii. 36 The cringing old Noddies and Cathedral-Men, that adore unlighted Candles at the Altar. 1794 J. WOLCOT Sun & Peacock in Wks. (1812) III. 265 To credit such a tale I'm not the noddy. 1839 DICKENS Nicholas Nickleby vii. 63 To think that I should be such a noddy!
There are more example quotes but I broke it off when I got to Dickens since we all remember him.
Maryal
Traude S
July 17, 2006 - 07:47 am
It is highly surprising that in chapter XI Don Quixote actually recognizes the traveling players for what they are. Could we assume he was "shocked into (temporary) sanity?"
Sancho reminds him that a true knight cannot challenge sham knights, and the DQ agrees to search for more substantial and honorable adventures.
What is Cervantes trying to tell us here? What are we to make of the fact that the Don, he who spontaneously created fantastic sights and adventures out of the most commonplace sights (windmills and giants), now realizes that the costumed actors are unworthy opponents and refrains from fighting them?
Is the strange appearance of another knight and his squire just happenstance? We can speculate but won't be able to judge the importance of the mirrors until we get to chapter XV.
The varying names indicate that some translators did take some liberties trying to coin the best possible English equivalent. Grossman labored meticulously over the text, that is obvious. I did not see "noddy" in her version (or I would have circled it) and could not understand the question at first.
True, the differing terms give us several perspectives. However, as a translator myself I believe the reader can also be led astray and become confused by such variety in relatively minor deails.
Joan Pearson
July 17, 2006 - 10:02 am
Traudee, I'm not a translator as you are, but cannot imagine myself taking such liberties - for example, naming donkeys, adding noddies, and who knows what else! Oh, and let's not forget the baby in the bathwater! I guess they must have thought these were what Cervantes had in mind - can you imagine what Cervantes would think of these "improvements on his work?
I agree, we are seeing a new Don Quixote in this volume, Traudee - first his imagination failed him in the meeting with Dulcinea. He who had been able to see giants in windmills, was not able to see beauty in the peasant girl. That's a change.
Next he comes across Death with a human face, an emperor, a knight, demons...he's not imagining what he sees as a knightly adventure. But wait...he did perceive that the cart of actors were enemies after all, forgetting the clown was an actor. The mule was definitely worth fighting over. I guess the point is that the Don is no longer deluded by appearances. But he still sees himself as the knight who must right wrongs and injustice. Here's where the new and improved - wiser Sancho steps in and diverts him from confrontation. Is this going to be the pattern for future episodes?...
Raffel seems to be going back and forth with the new knight's name - does your translator? Sometimes Don Q calls him the the Knight of the Woods, sometimes the Knight of the Mirrors. Do you think these names represent the way Don Quixote regards him? First he steps out of the wood, hence the name. "Mirror" implies that this knight is reflecting our Don...so is this why Don Q. changes the name? Does it seem to you that Don Quixote considers that these two may be impersonators or anything other than what they appear to be?
You and Maryal sound as if you think the pair are impersonators, Remember how the priest and the barber set out to impersonate the damsel in distress back in Volume I. If the Mirror knight and his squire are actually the priest and the barber, they must be in very good costumes.
hats
July 17, 2006 - 10:12 am
The squire, seems totally different from Sancho. Sancho, now, is so outspoken. He almost seems impolite. He interrupts his knight errant, Don Q, etc. The new squire seems more aware of his master's status or rank.
Also, to me, the Knight in the Wood seems far sadder than Don Quixote. Maybe I need to read further.
boookworm
July 17, 2006 - 11:09 am
Smollet also goes from Knight of the Wood to Knight Of the Mirror.
In Chapter XI when Don Q discovers that the Parliament of Death is just actors he says; “By the faith of a knight-errant!, when I first descried the wagon, I thought myself on the eve of some great adventure; and now I affirm, that a man ought to examine things with more senses than one, before he can be assured of the truth.” Both the Don and Sancho seem to be coming into more understanding.
hats
July 17, 2006 - 11:41 am
I like the discussion between the Don and Sancho about the benefit of plays and playwrights. It does seem that Cervantes had a love for the world of acting, I think. Don Q tells Sancho
"I want you, Sancho, to think well and to have a good opinion of plays, and to be equally well-disposed toward those who perform them and those who write them..."
I wonder if this is why Don Q doesn't attack the stage players.
"Go with God, my good people, and have your festival.....ever since I was a boy I have enjoyed the theater, and in my youth I was a great lover of plays."
In the past, Don Q would have misread the circumstances and took matters in his own hands. Then, the other people would find themselves in an unexpected, maybe violent situation with Sancho and the Don.
There is no fiery exchange this time. Is it possible that Cervantes could not allow his Don to get into a battle with stage actors? Therefore, we are left with the Don and Sancho in some way respecting this passing parade of actors.
hats
July 17, 2006 - 11:52 am
Well, it does turn into an incident. Sancho seems to put the controls on everything.
judywolfs
July 17, 2006 - 12:11 pm
Hats at #206 you asked about discalced and beatified. Discalced means wearing sandles or going barefoot - usually used in connection with friars or other orders of holy men, and beatified pertains to one of the steps in becoming declared an "official" saint of the Roman Catholic church.
I like volume II SOOOOO much better than II liked volume I. Sorry I haven't been very active here for a while, I've too busy to be able to get to the computer - but spent a wonderful 2 days this past weekend reading on the porch, and I'm not only all caught up, but rather ahead of our schedule. Sancho is still my favorite guy in the book.
~JudyS
hats
July 17, 2006 - 12:15 pm
Judy, thank you. JoanP, also gave a lot of information about the discalced friars.
ALF
July 17, 2006 - 12:21 pm
Traude- I asked the same question about Don's not accepting illusions any longer, in my post # 252.
judywolfs
July 17, 2006 - 12:58 pm
One of the questions in the heading asks "Do you agree with Don Quixote, that Sancho sounds more elegant and learned when he mouths those proverbs and sayings, no matter how irrelevant they are to the matter at hand?"
No, of course not. When Sancho mouths those sayings he usually gets them wrong and sounds like one of our cute little noddies. (: So I think the Don prefers Sancho to quote odds and ends of proverbs and well known sayings because DQ is familiar with those proverbs, and it gives him an opportunity to correct Sancho yet again, and feel superior to him. Don Quixote is such an unrealistic egotist.
Sorry about jumping in with those explanations of beatified and barefoot, I wrote that before I got caught up on all the posts, so I didn't see that the question had already been answered.
An aside - Alf, where in the Adirondacks were you? I've got a log cabin in the foothills, where we spend a great deal of time. Oh - and a little suggestion, it's very very unlikely that you can use a laptop in that area - usually even a cell phone won't work up there.
`JudyS
Mippy
July 17, 2006 - 01:28 pm
The Knight of the Woods is, IMHO, the first sympathetic character we've met in a while.
He actually believes DQ is a knight, doesn't he?
I sure didn't like those mean thespians. Imagine beating up Sancho's donkey! The nerve!
Suddenly, Sancho seems to be full of quick thinking, doesn't he? What made him change?
I hope someone else chimes in about #2 above, death taking away our "costumes" which I don't understand.
Deems
July 17, 2006 - 01:47 pm
Judy, thank you for your very positive experience with Part II. I also find it much more satisfying and less episodic (even though it is episodic) and the characters are certainly less buffoonish.
Don Quixote does understand, at least initially, that the actors are actors when it is explained to him
even though one of the actors is in costume as a knight. It's only when the fool starts to bedevil DQ and when he runs off with Sancho's donkey, all the time mocking the way DQ and Rocinante fell, that DQ decides he might need to take revenge. It is only at this point that Sancho steps in with his newly-found reasoning ability:
"It would be crazy to attempt this adventure: your grace should consider, Senor, that for pebbles and stones, there's no defensive weapon in the world except to squeeze into a bronze bell and hide there; you should also consider that there is more rashness than courage in a single man attacking an army that has Death in it, and emperors fighting in person, and the help of good and bad angels."
The story is changing. In Part I, our knight errant would never have left a troupe of actors in costume alone. He would have invented a whole story to go with them.
But instead, that which is an imitation of life (playacting) is accepted as just that and Quixote tells Sancho that in his youth he was a great playgoer.
The whole incident reminded me of the part of
Hamlet where Hamlet happens upon the troupe of actors that has just come to town (they are the ones he will have perform a play before the king and queen).
Since Shakespeare and Cervantes were contemporaries although they never knew each other and lived in different countries, I was astonished that they had such similar reactions to wandering players. I didn't realize before that this travelling from town to town activity was carried out in Spain as well as England. Now I'm thinking that it must have occured in France as well.
Maryal
Mippy
July 17, 2006 - 02:03 pm
Here's a link about your remark,
Maryal, regarding French theater:
Theater in France
hats
July 17, 2006 - 02:09 pm
Maryal and Mippy, thank you.
Deems
July 17, 2006 - 02:10 pm
Thank you, Mippy. I guess they did have troupes in France as well. I'm too steaped (steeped?) in English and American Lit, probably. When I look across cultures in a time period, I'm always surprised.
You find the Knight of the Woods a sympathetic character, eh? What draws you to him most? His longing for his lady?
I see danger in his claims that his lady is the fairest in the land! Especially the part where he claims to have had all the knights of LaMancha report to her to declare her most beautiful.
Don't you think it's more than passing strange that Don Quixote would come upon another knight errant in a time when there aren't any? Except for Don Quixote, that is.
JoanK
July 17, 2006 - 04:22 pm
I was just thinking "What happened to the student, and his plan to stop DQ", when the knight of the mirrors came along. Do you smell the distinct odor of fish?
JoanK
July 17, 2006 - 04:26 pm
Cervantes does sound like Shakespeare, doesn't he, when he sees us as playing roles through life that disappear at death. Didn't someone say Pirandello wrote about him? I'm beginning to see why.
1amparo
July 17, 2006 - 07:15 pm
"Discalced means wearing sandals or going barefoot -"
Sandals do have soles, one's feet are therefore protected from pebbles etc. Descalzas f., descalzados m., means no shoes at all; barefeet and hence a form of penitence just like the hairshirt (?) used to be.
Amparo
1amparo
July 18, 2006 - 03:59 am
Why did I write "descalzados"???
Joan Pearson
July 18, 2006 - 04:23 am
Good morning, Amparo, our resident guardian angel/tooth fairy! It's nice going to bed with questions under the pillow, knowing you will be by to consider them as we sleep!
I'd love to know more about the play the troupe of actors were performing - am fascinated by the cast of characters, the knight and the emperor. Raffel includes a footnote saying that it may have been a play by Lope de Vega - a play by the same name, "Las Cortes de la Muerte." Interesting that Cervantes would refer to a play by his rival, Lope. His readers would have been familliar with this play and known its meaning here. Can you help find something about this play?
In a way I'm glad that Cervantes was not more successful than Lope de Vega - he may have continued writing drama and not turned to his fiction writing and the "first modern novel" would have been ...?
descalzados? I understood what you meant, but not why you wrote what you did. Only you can answer that!
What time is it in Australia, by the way?
Joan Pearson
July 18, 2006 - 05:07 am
Judy, delighted to find you here on the trail - and well ahead of us, no less! I too am feeling more comfortable in Volume II.
I love the way the chapters connect to one another, build on one another. Maybe that's the difference between the two volumes? Sheila - notes that in Chapter XI, rather than throw himself into a new adventure, Don Q. stops to reflect on the reality of the situation - "a man ought to examine things with more senses than one, before he can be assured of the truth."
In the following episode, he meets the mirror knight and squire. Do they look into the mirror "with more senses than one" for the truth?
Maryal - "Mirrors reflect. These particular mirrors reflect Don Q and Sancho."
An interesting choice, mirrors, isn't it? Cervantes has chosen the mirror image to portray this pair and yet the pairs are not EXACTLY mirror images of one another, are they, Hats? As you noted, Sancho is more outspoken. almost seems impolite. interrupts his knight errant, whereas new squire seems more aware of his master's status or rank - and the Mirror Knight seems almost sadder than Don Quixote.
Judy, I'm glad you brought up the mishmash of Sancho's proverbs. He seems to know what he means - seems to live by these proverbs - so does the mirror squire, doesn't he? They live life through proverbs the way Don Quixote sees the reality of life through the old stories of knight errantry. (By the way, I was delighted at Sancho's comparing life to a chess game...when they game is over, all the pieces go back into the same bag, all jumbled together. I think this is when Don Q. commented that he was becoming less the fool, more like a wise man.)
But do we look in the mirror and see things as they really are - or rather as we hope others see us? What has Cervantes been saying here about his love for the theatre? He writes, "Nothing so clearly presents us to ourselves the way we really are as do plays and players." He wants us to consider theater as a mirror, imitating life - Does the author hold up a mirror to his readers so they see themselves as they are? I'm confused. Do Sancho and the Don see themselves as they are in the Mirrors - or as they should be? The old question - does art imitate life, or life imitate art...
Joan Pearson
July 18, 2006 - 05:25 am
Mippy - Cervantes wrote that in this life, one actor plays the villain, another a liar...a wise fool, foolish lover and then the play is over, and they all take off their costumes - they are all just actors, every bit as good as the others....when life is over, death takes away the costumes by which we tell one from one another, in the grave everyone is equal." "when the the concept of death as the great equalizer.
I look at Cervantes as a champion of equal rights, just as his DON Q. dedicated his life righting injustice. I'm not sure, but I sense that he, Cervantes is saying that he believes this is true in the afterlife, BUT here on earth, not the way we commemorate the dead, the manner in which we honor and bury the dead, the way posterity records our lives, preserves our accomplishment...
JoanK, I have to keep reminding myself that Cervantes was probably not aware of Shakespeare, while Shakespeare may have been familiar with Cervantes' work. (Please, someone, remind me how I know this? I did make a note, but neglected to note the source.) I think the resemblance between these two writers probably reflects the similarities of life and thought in England and Spain at the time.
Mippy finds something to like in the character of the Knight of the Mirrors. But does the mirror reflect truth? Shall we move on to the next three chapters today and learn more about him and finally, what he looks like when he removes his costume?
Deems
July 18, 2006 - 05:55 am
What a good question,
Joan P--does art imitate life, or the other way round? Good arguments can certainly be made for either as well as for both. Certainly the classical idea, revived in the renaissance, was that art was an imitation of life. Both Shakespeare and Cervantes see plays as the truest representation of life during their time.
I'll bet that today both would be writing for the theater or for movies, maybe both.
Shakespeare makes a more extended parallel between acting and life in
As You Like It:
All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages. At first, the infant,
Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.
Then the whining schoolboy, with his satchel
And shining morning face, creeping like snail
Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,
Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
Made to his mistress' eyebrow. Then a soldier,
Full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard, (leopard)
Jealous in honour, sudden and quick in quarrel,
Seeking the bubble reputation
Even in the canon's mouth. And then the justice,
In fair round belly with good capon lined, (rooster)
With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,
Full of wise saws and modern instances; (proverbs)
And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts
Into the lean and slippered pantaloon
With spectacles on nose and pouch on side;
His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide
For his shrunk shank, and his big manly voice,
Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.
(As You Like It, 2. 7. 139-167)
The lover here reminds me of all those melancholy knights wandering in the woods and composing sonnets to their ladies, not to mention all the shepherds doing likewise that we have already encountered in
Don Quixote Maryal
ALF
July 18, 2006 - 05:58 am
I'm attending Shakespeare today and will check in later. Tomorrow we are off to the big "montreal Bash." Ergo- I will be missing for 5 days once again.
Deems
July 18, 2006 - 06:00 am
ANDY--Have a great time--at both events!
hats
July 18, 2006 - 06:02 am
Does this poem fit our knight in the wood? This poem came to mind.
John Keats
hats
July 18, 2006 - 06:03 am
Alf, have fun!! Hurry back!
hats
July 18, 2006 - 06:19 am
Maryal, thank you for the excerpt from Shakespeare's play. I love it! I especially enjoyed reading about the "seven ages."
Deems
July 18, 2006 - 06:51 am
Hats---Thank you for Keats' poem. It is certainly another description of these mournful knights. Keats was very interested in Medieval Times.
hats
July 18, 2006 - 06:56 am
Maryal, I didn't know he had an interest in Medieval times. Thank you for sharing.
judywolfs
July 18, 2006 - 10:21 am
how the various chapters in Volume II connect and build upon one another. Segue into each other. It’s so much more understandable and much smoother than Volume I was. Looking back on my struggle with Volume I, I’m almost picturing it as one of those jumpy, jerky, black and white silent films that never seem to make sense to me.
When the Knight of the Mirrors appeared, my first thought was “Oh no, here we go again,it’s a figment of DQs imagination or lunacy.” When it became clear that Sancho saw them also, I thought perhaps two of those actors came back to play a trick on Quixote and Sancho.
Here’s one thing I liked in chapter 14: Sancho so staunchly refused to fight against the other squire that he found himself saying, in effect, “if you try to make me fight you, I’ll beat you up.” But it worked! He got away with it, and the other squire agreed they wouldn’t need to fight in the morning. Not even whack each other for a only half hour with sacks full of rocks. What a concept.
~JudyS
ALF
July 18, 2006 - 01:09 pm
Well, we just came from the library where we witnessed the "real" Wm. Shakespeare. I asked him if he had worked at the Folgers and he denied that he had been there often. He smiled and said that he thought he would go back and reintroduce himself as he was dressed today; with his pantaloon, spectacles on his noseand all of the pipes and whistles. I assured him that if he dared that, they may answer him with a "yeah, sure, you're William Shakespeare."
Thank you Maryal for you review of As You Like It 2.7.139-167 because that is what this actor recited throughout his performance. He told of Will as an infant, a schoolboy, the lover, the soldier (which he never was), etc. until the last scene of all the mere oblivion proven holding a skeletal head in his hands, sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything. Different but impressive.
Tonight is The Tempest if the fair weather holds out.
Deems
July 18, 2006 - 02:22 pm
ANDY--Well, what do you know, you got to watch an actor using that very speech from As You Like It!!
And on the same day it was posted.
Who said there wasn't such a thing as psychic ability?
ALF
July 18, 2006 - 06:28 pm
- they will continue with this performance starting Tuesday next week thru Saturday. Staci ana I acted it out for the kids today by the pool and they were "tickled" with our rendition. I, of course was Prospero and Alonso, she Miranda and Ariel. We took turns with the others and the kids thought we had "lost it."
How much fun that was to have Mr. Shakespeare spout off from As We Like It and question the audience. Even the kids wiggled in their seats to get called on. Of course, being the brilliant scholar that I am, I answered whole-heartedly. ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaa (thanks to Maryal.)
Traude S
July 18, 2006 - 07:10 pm
ANDY, the Shakespeare immersion must be a very special enjoyment, thank you for sharing the experience here.
DEEMS, I've lived through too many telepathic experiences to discount psychic phenomena. But please let me add quickly that I am not planning a "detour".
JOAN P, Samson Carrasco had hatched the plan to follow DQ and Sancho on their sally with the knowledge of the priest and the barber, and enlisted Sancho's neighbor Tomé as squire. Samson intended to beat the knight at his own game and knew the Don's vulnerability where Dulcinea's unsurpassed beauty was concerned. The outcome was not what he had expected.
The victorious DQ recognizes the Bachelor Carrasco and Sancho's neighbor, but he believes, wrongly, that wizards and magic have transferred their personalities on the valiant Knight of the Wood and his squire.
These two are mirror images of DQ and Sancho, but their reflection is reversed:
Samson, the challenger, is play-acting and a sane man who, in a fit of passion, becomes dangerous, perhaps temporarily mad. Bruised and bitterly resentful, he vows to pursue personal revenge against DQ. His squire leaves him. But we haven't seen the last of Samson, it seems.
May we perhaps assume then that Cervantes meant DQ, the unreconstructed madman, to be the winner = a noble visionary who inspires a faithful follower?
1amparo
July 18, 2006 - 08:22 pm
Sorry
JoanP, I cannot find anything in English. I can get the entire play in Spanish if anyone is interested. Here is photo of Lope de Vega and his signature:
Lope de Vega “Las cortes de la muerte,” meaning the courts of death, is a morality play that involves actors portraying such roles as Death, Sin, Envy, Madness, Love, Man and the Devil.
Death convenes a court to determine the fate of Man. Each character talks about the nature of what they are and how they will try to drag Man down to keep him from God. In the end, Christ casts off the evil members of the court and Man repents.
The play is featured in the plot of “Don Quixote.” Lope de Vega was being very nasty against Cervantes’ failure as a playwright. Cervantes saw better to behave more noble and gentlemanly, hence acknowledge Lope as the famous and successful playwright he was, by including one of Lope’s works in his book II of DQ.
Shakespeare did know about Cervantes by the English translation (John Ormsby) of the first volume of DQ. Whether Cervantes never had the opportunity to know about Shakespeare for lack of translations during Cervantes lifetime.
Amparo Wednesday 19 July. 1.30 p.m.
Joan Pearson
July 19, 2006 - 04:20 am
Good morning!
Look what our angel has brought to us as we were dreaming! Thank you so much for inserting Aussie time in your post, Amparo - will you continue to do that if you can think of it? I often find myself wondering and so inept converting the time change myself.
SO! Lope de Vega was twitting Cervantes' failure as a playwright when he wrote Las Cortes de la Muerte! The character in the play who was dressed as the knight was our own Don Quixote!!! Now that assortment of characters makes so much more sense! Thank you, thank you, thank you! This was "a morality play that involves actors portraying such roles as Death, Sin, Envy, MADNESS, Love, Man and the Devil. Of course our knight represents madness in the play! Lope wrote this play AFTER reading the first published volume and then Cervantes included the reference to Lope's play in his second volume. I'm loving this!
Joan Pearson
July 19, 2006 - 04:25 am
Hats - thank you for sharing Keats' "Las Belle Dame sans Merci" (I'm puzzling over "las" - why isn't it "la"? Anyone? Traudee?) - the death-pale knight has a dream in which he sees his ladies' other lovers (kings, princes, warriors) ..and sees the reality of his own situation and this causes his despondency. Death has stripped away all except the fact that they are all the same - rejected lovers!
Hats - "The lover here [in Keats poem] reminds me of all those melancholy knights wandering in the woods...Shakespeare wrote similar tales of rejected swain - am reading his "Love's Labor's Lost" written during this same period and was struck with the similar views, Cervantes' and Shakespeare's, on the ladies of the time. Will share more on that later.
Andy, reading your posts, I cannot help but think that these "kids" - though they thought you both had "lost it" - will never, ever forget their mom and grandmom acting out Shakespeare for them.
Maryal - thank you for bringing us the Seven Ages and the "costumes" we all wear, have worn, will wear - (I shouldn't say this, but I caught myself looking forward to the 6th ages when my"youthful hose" will be "a world too wide" for my "shrunk shank." But then I thought maybe I should just enjoy the fact that none of my duds are a world too wide...the time will come when my "well saved" clothes will fit again.
I can't help but notice that Shakespeare limits his observations on "actors" to this life, whereas Cervantes looks ahead to the afterlife when all will shed their costumes. Death, the great equalizer...
Coffee break and then back to our Don, who is still wearing his knightly costume...
1amparo
July 19, 2006 - 04:25 am
yes, it should be "la" as it is singular.
wed. 19/vii/06 8.55 pm
hats
July 19, 2006 - 04:26 am
JoanP,I think it's "La" because it's feminine and singular.
hats
July 19, 2006 - 04:27 am
Hi Amparo!
1amparo
July 19, 2006 - 04:28 am
LOL
HI, mate!
Joan Pearson
July 19, 2006 - 04:29 am
But what was Keats thinking when he wrote "las"? Shouldn't his editor picked up on that? - Good morning, Hats...Amparo!
hats
July 19, 2006 - 04:33 am
Good morning, JoanP!
1amparo
July 19, 2006 - 04:41 am
You girls are up early.
I am almost ready to go to bed. Busy day tomorrow.
Joan Pearson
July 19, 2006 - 05:00 am
Sweet dreams, Amparo! I'm sure we'll come up with more homework for you when others wake up. Rest up, mate!
Hi, Hats - I'm looking forward to hearing your reaction to this little episode with the Mirror Knight and his squire. When did you first realize that they were impersonators?
Like Judy, my first thought was that Cervantes was using the mirror knight and squire to tell us more about the inner Don Q. and Sancho...even if it was another figment of Don Q's imagination and lunacy," as Judy put it. Actually, I thought that Cervantes did succeed in revealing more about our dynamic duo, even though it turned out that it was all a trick to get Don Quixote to come home.
From the conversations between the knight-squire pair, Sancho reveals his real reasons for travelling with Don Quixote...Sancho really doesn't want to fight the other squire. Judy observes the very funny scene in which they worked out an agreement that left these two unscathed. Funny, funny scene.
It didn't take long for the Mirror Knight to start pressing Don Q's buttons. What was the touchiest moment...when Don heard tell that Casildea of Vandalia was the fairest in the land, OR when he heard the Mirror Knight brag that he had defeated Don Quixote?
Were you impressed with Don Q, the way he controlled his temper, yet again? This is INDEED a new Don Q. "Gently, gently, sir knight, listen, understand please, " he says in response..and the two, not in a fit of rage, but very reasonably decide the duel is the only way to solve their differences.
At what point did you suspect the Mirror Knight was Sanson Carrasco? And how was the plot supposed to work?
As Traudee points out, the outcome was unexpected. How could the decrepit old knight, obviously delusional defeat the 24 year old university graduate in a "duel"? Traudee, would you please expand on this..."May we perhaps assume then that Cervantes meant DQ, the unreconstructed madman, to be the winner = a noble visionary who inspires a faithful follower?"
Looking forward to hearing more from you. I'm developing new respect for Don Q. and the reasonable way he is handling himself in his madness!
hats
July 19, 2006 - 05:26 am
JoanP, I have been naive. I had no idea the knight of mirrors or the squire were impersonators. I think all my thoughts were on the ugly nose.
I think The Don is bothered the most by Sanson Carrasco's statement about Casildea's beauty being fairer than the beauty of Dulcinea. To The Don that anyone would even think that their lady is fairer than Dulcinea is more upsetting than any impersonation. I think a sane person would find the masquerade more upsetting.
Deems
July 19, 2006 - 08:07 am
Morning, my compadres!! That's the word Grossman uses to translate what Sancho and Tome call each other. They are friends and neighbors from back home.
Anyhoo, COMPADRE brought back my "horsey days" and drawing horses and watching westerns and naming the horses I drew. And the six or seven words of Spanish I knew as a result of these activities. I knew "Chico" and "desperado" and "compadre" and "via con deos" and a handful of others that are not coming at the moment. I was happy to see the word again.
Thinking about another way Part 2 is different from Part I: After Carrasco is defeated by Don Quixote (completely by accident as usually happens), we discover that his pride is hurt. Once he was in this in order to help the priest and the barber get DQ back home, but now he feels true motivation. He wants to act in the future because of something that has happened to him.
Before we've had all sorts of lovers separated and reunited and lots of talk about love, the presence or absence of it, but nothing I can remember where a character acted--or resolved to act--in a certain way because of feelings, other than love, which wasn't really described except in the formulaic way that courtly love proscribed.
Don Quixote's "motivation" in Part 1 is really a desire to BE something that he has read about in books, a knight errant. He has gotten this idea from fiction and he decides that he can just go out and create a knight, so he names himself, he names his horse (since in those novels of chivalry horses and swords had names) and he eventually gets a squire who seems to agree to accompany him because of the promise of a reward, an insula to govern, or golden coins. And so it goes in Part 1. DQ sees windmills that are "giants", attacks sheep that are warring armies, gets frightened by those milling wheels, encounters a number of characters at the inn which he sees as a "castle."
Part 1 is formulaic. But here at the end of Chapter XV, we see a character having a real emotion. Sanson Carrasco wants REVENGE. This is character development. Carrasco is no longer just a peg in the plot of the priest and the barber. Now he has gotten caught up in the "adventure" himself.
And we can be sure that we will encounter him again. That's a pattern that is firmly established in Part 1.
Sorry to have gone on so long. Hi Amparo and Hats and Mippy and Traude and Joan K and Phyll and Judy S and Joan P and marni and I know I've left people out. Sorry but it's time to finish washing the bathroom floor.
Yes, it should be La Belle Dame. . . . the problem with the internet--one of the problems is that scanning machines sometimes do not scan accurately. Somehow an S appeared where it shouldn't have. I never even saw it, read right over it, because I am familiar with the poem. Sharp eyes, there, fearless leader!
Maryal
Traude S
July 19, 2006 - 09:19 am
JOAN P, I'll elaborate on my 'construct'.
Carrasco - like the priest and the barber - wanted to "cure" the Don of his madness. We saw how Carrasco gained the Don's confidence with obsequious flattery and encouraging talk about chivalry. He knew of DQ's admiration for and absolute devotion of Dulcinea. In the guise of "Knight of the Wood" he secretly follows him with his squire, brings about an encounter and provokes DQ with an untruth, hence the fight.
But the fake knight's horse could not move while DQ
"who thought his enemy was already bearing down on him, swiftly dug his spurs into Rocinante's skinny flanks and goaded him so mercilessly that, the history tells us, this was the only time he was known to have galloped ..." (pg. 545, Grossman) and thereupon DQ "charged the Knight of the Mirrors with so much force that almost without intending to he knocked him to the ground ..." (pg. 546, Grossman)
I submit that Cervantes changed the name of "Knight of the Wood" deliberately to "Knight of the Mirrors" to underline his treachery. Samson is the reflection of the Don in reverse; he becomes the bad guy. Bruised and battered from the fall, his resentment and his resolve to seek personal revenge on the Don is further proof that Cervantes deemed him an unworthy opponent of the Don. Samson's squire has no interest in following him and goes home.
Cervantes, I submit, shows with this sequence of events that the Don's intentions were genuine and honorable, even though he is still blind to reality. Inspired by his vision, Sancho remains his faithful follower.
JOAN K, Cervantes was ahead of his time, I believe, in his exploration of reality versus fantasy and illusion, sanity and madness -- centuries before Freud and Jung.
As HEGESO reminded us, the Italian playwright Pirandello explored sanity vs. insanity, reality and fantasy, in his play about the medieval Roman Emporor Henry IV. During a costume party a man costumed as that emperor, loses his mind after a fall from a horse and fancies himself the emperor. Everybody plays along for years. After a reenactment of the fateful event, the man regains his sanity, i.e. recovers his memory but cannot act on the truth. He's forced to continue playing the role forever thereafter.
It remains to us to find out how Cervantes solved DQ problem.
Part II is more serious in tone than Part I, but by the time Cervantes wrote it, he had lived through ten probably tmultuous years.
Traude S
July 19, 2006 - 09:25 am
DEEMS, as I checked on my post, which took me a long time to compose and, as usual to type directly in to the folder, I saw yours and echo your remarks. Thank you for expressing everything so clearly.
judywolfs
July 19, 2006 - 01:04 pm
sort of knight errant would claim he won a duel or a joust or whatever they called it, by simply bashing into another knight who was just trying to get his tired old horse moving again. It seems that isn't much of a noble victory. But it was quite nice of DQ to help Sancho get up in the cork tree to safety before he started his noble battle.
~JudyS
Mippy
July 19, 2006 - 02:45 pm
These chapters were confusing, but I've finally caught up; we see the Knight of the Woods is Sansom in disguise, prompted by the priest and the barber.
But it looks like DQ is quite sane, beating up the so-called Knight of the Woods who wanted to fight
him. Am I on the right track? Did our DQ finally win a battle in reality?
One of the best parts is Sancho recognizing his neighbor, as the Squire of the Woods.
Deems
July 19, 2006 - 02:54 pm
Mippy--Indeed, Don Quixote finally won a battle, although in a comic way. Apparently the Knight of the Mirrors' horse is as feeble as DQ's and stops to rest. DQ, thinking that his opponent is still challenging him, attacks (my translation indicates that this is the only time Rocinante actually managed a gallop) and knocks Carrasco to the ground. The wind is knocked out of him, but just like everyone else, he is not dead. Instead his ribs hurt.
I liked the fake nose that Tome wears so that Sancho won't recognize him. Such a wonderful description of a nose that hung "two fingers width below his mouth." If you measure this distance on yourself, you will see that this is a really loonnnnnngg nose!
Joan Pearson
July 19, 2006 - 06:51 pm
Oh, Hats, that's makes two naive noddies, then! I too thought all along that this was Cervantes talking about how the theatre mirrored life - using the Mirror Knight and his squire to demonstrate. I didn't notice until the long ugly nose appeared on Tome. Then the idea of "disguise" finally dawned on me. Was it in fact an eggplant?
Don Quixote seems so much saner, but there are a few hot buttons that can always set him into knightly motion. Is it possible to be perfectly sane in most things and then irrational and delusional in certain isolated areas?
Maryal, pride is a strong motivator (the strongest?)...one of those hot buttons that can cause a sane man...even an educated man (especially an educated man?) to act in an irrational manner. Both Don Quixote and Sanson are motivated to action when their pride gets hurt. Scarey, huh? Sanson vows to get revenge on DQ in the future because his pride has been hurt!
Thank you for establishing that we are seeing character development for the first time in this story! Do you think perhaps this is the first time a character has been developed in fiction?
Traudee - I am following your "construct" - Sanson steps into the plot as the mysterious Knight of the Wood...and becomes the imperfect reflection of our Don Q. in his attempt to Mirror him. An inaccurate, "unworthy" reflection.
I love this, Traudee - "the Don's intentions were genuine and honorable, even though he is still blind to reality. inspired by his vision." I think the "genuine and honorable" aspects of his nature will prevail over those less honorable through each of the coming episodes. I see no more beatings and defeat in my crystal ball.
Mippy, yes, I feel that you are on the right track -
DQ is quite sane, most of the time - and did finally win a battle - The first of many? Though Judy - reminds us just how silly and ignoble was Don Q's victory over Sanson. Nevertheless, a victory is a victory. He won, Sanson lost...someone go tell this to Dulcinea.
JoanK - yes, I agree that Cervantes is ahead of his time. What's more, he seems to be more aware of the present than his "compadres" - aware of the changes outside of Spain as the Renaissance blossoms in Europe. How do you think Cervantes will handle the DQ problem? if you had to guess? I'm frightened for him. I don't see how we can expect a happy ending for him. When I think of the classic definition of a comedy with its happy ending, I can't see that happening. What is the alternative?
Traude S
July 19, 2006 - 07:46 pm
MIPPY, it wasn't even a real battle! The knigts faced each other; the fake knight's horse didn't move; the Don thought the "enemy" already had the upper hand, spurred Rocinante on to a first-time-ever gallop, charged the knight, making him fall off his horse, bruised, battered, angry.
Sancho watches the scene from the safety of a cork tree - possibly the only comical moment. What happened is recounted in the quoted paragraph in my earlier post.
The Don is still blinded, stil "mad". He persists in believing that, in order to torment HIM (again), enchanters have magically put Carrasco's head on the Knight of the Mirror. Nothing can convince him otherwise. He still considers the fake knight a valiant, worthy opponent and is as proud as a peacock.
Sancho knows exactly who is who, but he keeps silent - no doubt for fear that his own lie, i.e. the entire contrived tall tale about visiting the imaginary Dulcinea might come out.
Besides, from his experience with the Don he knows that there is no rationalizing with a fool.
marni0308
July 19, 2006 - 09:50 pm
I've finally caught up. I thought the story of the Knight of the Mirrors was the funniest episode yet of our Don and Sancho. I just loved the whole thing and thought it was a riot - not just the part where Sancho watched from the cork tree.
I thought Cervantes referred to the new knight as the Knight of the Mirrors because he had moon-shaped mirrors sewn all over his cassock, which appeared to be made out of gold. It sounded like mid-eastern or Indian cloth to me. That's what I envisioned. I guess I didn't think beyond the obvious.
I suspected the Knight of the Mirrors was Sanson because it was suggested to us that we would be seing him shortly. I thought at first he would be with the group of actors, but he was not. However, as soon as another knight showed up, and especially, when he made the remark that his love was the most beautiful woman etc etc., I knew it had to be Sanson deliberately trying to get a rise out of the Don. Sanson had promised the barber and the priest (and the niece?) that he would help to keep the Don at home, so I figured this had something to do with getting him home. But, I did not suspect the battle!
We actually see Sancho's evening with the other squire first before we listen in on the Don and Sanson. You could see that Tome was trying to get Sancho to go home. When Sancho started coughing, I figured he was trying to get the other squire to offer something to drink. Sancho certainly loves wine. And sure enough, the Tome had a regular feast and full bottle which they rapidly finished off. I got a kick out of Sancho's family history and that he inherited a natural ability to detect excellent wine. You could see that something was up because of the feast that the squire carried with him.
I thought it was funny the way Sanson described the Don's physical appearance to Don Quixote - "a tall, skinny, long-legged, gaunt-jawed, stalking figure, etc." But, of course, it was Sanson's taunting of how he had defeated Don Quixote that really got the Don's hackles up. He had been unusually patient (for the Don) before this, even regarding words that Dulcinea was not the most beautiful. The Don challenges the Knight of the Mirrors to a duel, who sets the combat conditions - that the winner must "comply with the will of the victor, and do everything that he shall desire." Ah ha! This would be how Sanson would get the Don home. I figured the other knight would be the victor - as usual. But, it's too early in the book for the Don to go home.
Before the joust, the other squire tried to get Sancho to fight, too. I laughed at how Sancho tried to sidestep the fight. He's very good at avoiding fighting! And the bit about fighting with linen bags. Too funny! Sancho thought that was ok until he found out they would be filled with stones. However, the squire did get Sancho's hackles up until, with the approach of dawn, Sancho saw the squire's eggplant nose! It did sound like a real eggplant. Can you just picture it!! (But my edition says a bit later it is a pasteboard nose covered with varnish.)
I think Cervantes' description of the joust is a triumph of literature. What a wonderful scene. Sancho escaping "the nose" up in the tree, the Knight of the Mirrors assuming Don Quixote was taking his ground, the conditions of both knights' horses, Rocinante's first gallop, Sanson's entanglement in his horse and confusion with his lance, the joust, Sanson falling and breaking some ribs, his "discomfiture." Finally, victory for the Don!
The Don recognizes Sanson, but thinks it is an enchantment. He nearly kills him except Tome reveals himself to Sancho and begs him to keep the Don from killing Sanson, which he does. Sancho does not believe in the enchantment, thank goodness.
We know we are going to see more of Sanson in the future. It won't be good. How interesting that Sanson should meditate on "schemes of revenge." He is supposed to be Don Quixote's friend. Is he transforming into an evil character?
marni0308
July 19, 2006 - 09:59 pm
Amparo: I had a taste of Australia today. My husband and I went to a butterfly conservatory in Massachusetts. Besides butterflies, there were some very beautiful Gouldian finches. A sign said they were from Australia and they are nearly extinct and can no longer be exported from Australia. There were also some bearded dragons and a veiled chameleon which I think were also from Australia. It was fascinating and fun. We had a great time!
hats
July 20, 2006 - 02:37 am
I have enjoyed Part I as much as Part II. There is a different tone or feel to Part II. In Part II I think the Don is weighing his actions carefully. So I think the long rest at home was good for the Don. I do worry that without more rest at home the Don might begin to lose his healthy progress. If he doesn't find Dulcinea and disenchant her, will this make him become completely insane? Dulcinea seems to be what drives him.
I wonder if the same words used by Tome Cecial to Sanson don't also fit Don Q and Sancho.
"It's easy enough to think up and begin an enterprise, but most of the time it's hard to end it."
Then again, maybe being on the road, seeking adventures, is what Don Q needs in order to live out all his days or until he is a very old man. Maybe going home and remaining would lead to sickness and death.
In our time we learn keeping our minds and bodies active will help us live longer. But what if we our feeding our minds with dreams? How does that apply?
1amparo
July 20, 2006 - 03:44 am
Yes Marni, the poor things have less and less habitat and unless drastic action is taken they will all disappear.
Amparo
Joan Pearson
July 20, 2006 - 04:20 am
Good morning, Amparo!
- "the poor things have less and less habitat and unless drastic action is taken they will all disappear." Like the Gouldian finches, the knights have disappeared too. I guess we should have thought about that when we met up with another knight on the trail, Hats. We got caught by that old enchanter - Cervantes, who has us so conditioned at this point that we allow him to take us wherever he wishes.
Traudee - does Sancho know "EXACTLY who is who"? I see him wanting so much to believe his master/buddy that he slips in and out of reality. Of course that's his neighbor, he knows so much about him. But Don Q. is convincing (somewhat convincing, a little teeny bit convincing?) that the evil enchanter is SO good at what he does, he has transformed him. Just as Don Q. is still under the spell that the peasant girl was his Dulcinea...though the smell of garlic still lingers.
Does everyone else feel at this point that Sancho is completely convinced that the whole thing is madness? Is he continuing on the trail because he loves his friend and wants to protect him - from himself? The next episode dwells on Don Quixote's madness. Let's see if Sancho becomes a believer again at the end.
Marni - of course, you picked up on all the clues that should have alerted us to the fact that these were imposters. When I read of the huge rabbit pie and the full winebags the other squire was carrying, I just thought that this was not a real squire, but an ideal squire - a device that Cervantes was holding up to show us that literature, drama - fiction could indeed inspire readers to reach beyond - well, to show that life could imitate art.
You were watching for Sanson all along. From here on, I will be on the lookout too. Suspicious that each new character is an impersonator!
Yes, Marni, I think that pride has transformed Sanson and made him "evil."
Hats - a great line -
"It's easy enough to think up and begin an enterprise, but most of the time it's hard to end it."
How do you think the story will end? Even if the knight does not win Dulcinea (we know that's not going to happen) will the road have been better than the inn, the striving better than the destination, the end? That's what I'm hoping for the Don - that he is satisfied that he has accomplished much because he remained honorable. A feeling of accomplishment, that's what I'm hoping for.
Marni, I didn't even remember that "Cervantes referred to the new knight as the Knight of the Mirrors because he had moon-shaped mirrors sewn all over his cassock" - just jumped immediately to what the mirrors could mean. Now in the next episode we meet a man in a green coat...should green mean anything as I thought the mirrors did, or is he just a man wearing green? And should we be suspicious of him?
This is a great new episode...LIONS!
hats
July 20, 2006 - 04:31 am
Good morning JoanP,
I definitely think Sancho is a tat off the wall or out of reality. For whatever reason, he believes the "mad" thoughts slipping from the Don's mouth from time to time. Sancho is not in his right mind. I just can't figure out whether Sancho lost his mind along the journey or whether it was already lost when he chose to take the journey in the first place.
marni0308
July 20, 2006 - 08:43 am
I think Sancho understands very well that Don Quixote is off-balance. He says, "...my master...is more of a madman than a knight." But Sancho made a very sweet remark to the other squire Tome when he said that Don Quixote, "...knows not what it is to harm man, woman or child, or to harbour the least malice, but seeks to do good unto all mankind....indeed for that very simplicity, I love him with all my heart, and cannot find the strength to leave him, notwithstanding all the mad pranks he is guilty of."
I think it is clear that Sancho understands finally that there is no enchantment involved in the story of the Knight of the Mirrours and his squire. But he holds back on attempting to explain this to his master because of the lie he had told earlier about the 3 women. Sancho doesn't want to "betray himself," to be found out. "...the transformation of Dulcinea was the effect of his own enchantments."
We are starting to see something new in Sancho. Sancho is beginning to use the Don's madness to his advantage. He got the Don to believe the 3 women were Dulcinea and her ladies. And in chpt 17, he lies about the curds that he left in the Don's hat. (Funny scene!) He blames the curds in the hat on the devil. I wonder what else Sancho will blame on enchanters in the future?
Deems
July 20, 2006 - 08:50 am
What wonderful posts! I agree with those of you (Joan P, maybe marni, and Hats) who find Sancho only partially deluded. He seems to see clearly enough much of the time and then, as Joan P puts it, he falls under Don Quixote's storytelling spell again. Maybe Sancho is a bit gullible?
Hats, I think you've found the sentence that most appeals to me so far in the whole book, including Part I:
"It's easy enough to think up and begin an enterprise, but most of the time it's hard to end it."
When I read it, I went back over events and thought how true it was. Then I thought of Cervantes himself, now embarked in Part II of a story he maybe never intended to write a second part to.
Think of Cervantes the WRITER. He has to find a way to end this second part. He is a sick man; he must know he won't live forever and he certainly must know that there won't be a Part III. But how to end this story? How to end it? What to do, what to do.
I thought of a movie I recently watched, "Cache," which won the director's award at Cannes last year. A French film, intriguing I thought. Loved the extra material with an interview with the director, Michael Haneke, in which he discussed how one step in the wrong direction leads to another and to another--he was making the point that the film was a morality tale. It seems Cervantes was making exactly the same point, only broader. Cervantes remark applies to both good startings out and poorly chosen ones, to every project undertaken in life.
Think of a child, the birth of a child. For the most part the conception of a child is pleasure-filled; the birth of a child is usually accompanied by pain.
Think of a writing project--I read in a biography of Cervantes that originally Don Quixote was a long short story. Somehow it grew.
The sentence certainly applies to Cervantes himself, who started this whole story of Don Quixote.
JoanP--I don't know if this is the first example of character development in prose fiction. It's certainly early.
marni--I thought the whole episode with the Knight of the Woods/Mirrors was funny too. So glad that someone else did.
That was a wonderful summary you provided.
Deems
July 20, 2006 - 08:52 am
marni--We were posting at the same time. And you point out that Sancho too is changing. I also see him as changing; he is not only more clever but he seems to really care about Don Quixote as you indicate.
marni0308
July 20, 2006 - 09:21 am
Hi, Maryal! Yes, I certainly think Sancho is extremely gullible! But he has a certain common sense much of the time, more so in Part II, I think. Eventually, he will figure things out, it seems - like with "the nose." He was frightened at first, probably thought it was some evil ogre, but when he saw the nose come off of his neighbor Tome, he believed it was Tome.
It seems to be harder to get the Don to believe what's real and not real.
I love the way Sancho is finally getting all this about the Don and taking advantage of the Don's madness, even though he loves the Don very much. It's just going to lead to more amusing scenes for us!
judywolfs
July 20, 2006 - 01:51 pm
! An eggplant, JoanPearson? You thought the fake nose really was an eggplant? Oh my, how hilarious!!!
I think yes, it is possible to appear sane at times while still holding strongly to a particular delusion or two. These days a persistent delusion, even if one appears to be sane in other respects, would be diagnosed as a serious thinking disorder, a mental illness, a chemical imbalance.
I don’t think Sancho is at all nuts, or deluded. Instead he’s kind of acting like a crafty teenager might; he’s just trying to get along comfortably and doing his own thing in the face of his parents’ “unreasonable” expectations such as finishing his homework and being home in time for supper. So, like the teenager he just makes up his own versions of “the dog ate my homework” or “I got home two hours late for supper because my girlfriend’s watch broke.” Like the teenager taking advantage of his parents’ confusion, tiredness or their tendency to give him another chance, Sancho takes advantage of the Don’s mental state to get out of trouble or avoid doing things expected of him that he doesn’t feel like doing.
Hats, what a lovely, important thought about keeping our minds and bodies active to help us live longer, along with feeding our minds with dreams.
The man in the green coat has me mystified. I’ll have to read those parts over again.
hats
July 20, 2006 - 01:59 pm
Judy, at least, the clothing is fancier. The green coat is mighty fancy. Then, the knight in the wood wears the "...coat....made of finest gold, and on it were scattered many small moons of gleaming mirrors..." Mighty fancy dudes or rags, as they say for slang.
hats
July 20, 2006 - 02:14 pm
I liked the argument between Don Diego de Miranda Don Quixote about poetry. Don Diego does not want his son to be a poet. Don Quixote takes the side of the son. Don Quixote says "although poetry is less useful than pleasurable, it is not one of those that dishonors the one who knows it....And so the man who uses and treats poetry in the requisite ways that I have mentioned will be famous, and his name esteemed, in all the civilized nations of the world."
Don Quixote's argument about poetry is interesting. To Don Q true poets are born and not made. I do feel the same way. I think true poets come into the world as poets. I have tried writing poetry. I can only play with it like a baby with a pretty rattle. When I read beautiful poetry, I believe the person was born with a special poetic gift. I think Anna the DL in the Poetry Nook is one of those people with that very special gift.
hats
July 20, 2006 - 02:24 pm
Don Q also says "you should allow your son to walk the path to which his star calls him..."
Don Q just seems full of such wonderful knowledge for a parent. I feel proud of Don Q. I am trying to remember some of his advice.
The Don's words change the mind of the man in the green coat. I feel he will try to have a better understanding of what his son wants to do with his life.
I love this line too spoken by Don Q.
"Children, Senor, are the very apple of their parents' eyes, and whether they are good or bad, they are loved as we love the souls that give us life...."
I am really falling in love with the Don. His madness is almost turning to wisdom.
hats
July 20, 2006 - 02:29 pm
I am not sure whether poets are born or not. This is different from my first answer. I really don't know. That's a hard question. It deserves a lot of thought, at least, for me.
JoanK
July 20, 2006 - 04:41 pm
I'm still back at the last adventure, crowing because I guessed the plot at once. Although I assumed the student would have sent someone else to be the knight, so he wouldn't be recognized (have you noticed that the student was able to find and recognize Don and Sancho in the dark, but the Don was completely unable to recognize him in the dark, even after talking to him).
I figured that DQ would have to win the joust (since there are 300 pages left), and had no idea how Cervantes was going to pull it off. Very clever and funny. Very mean of the student to take revenge.
But as JoanP said, there always seem to be more than one level here. Even after all the fun, what is Cervantes saying about reality with this knight of the mirrors?
1amparo
July 20, 2006 - 07:06 pm
To me, those few words are of the most exquisite poetry. Some of you may remember I did mention these words long ago in volume i; did you all, or some of you, find them profound and beautiful? Just for those words only I love Cervantes!
The lion: I can see it turning its rump on DQ; not even appetizing as a toothpick! While everyone else is running for his life or climbing up trees. And DQ saying: ?Leoncitos a mi? ?A mi leoncitos y a tales horas? LOL. Maybe it is my silly sense of humour....
Amparo
marni0308
July 20, 2006 - 08:33 pm
That lion episode was a riot!
I'm not finding anything odd about "The Man in the Green Coat." He just seems like a very pleasant, good, wealthy traveler that the Don and Sancho bump into on the road. The man invites them to his home after they have a chat. The man is unhappy that his son wants a life devoted to poetry. Sounds like many a parent unhappy with their children's career paths. He sees the Don as 2-sided - his mad side and his normal side - and he wants his son to feel out the Don. I don't see anything suspicious about the man - at least not yet.
hats
July 21, 2006 - 01:23 am
Amparo, I think that line is "exquisite poetry" too. I am really falling in love with Cervantes. I would love to read a whole book about Cervantes one day. I definitely think "Don Quixote" is a keeper. I want to reread it. When the discussion began, little did I realize such a statement would come out of my mouth.
Maryal, I have fallen in love with the Mr. Bill sign. Until you used it I didn't know how to use it.
I hope to one day reread Don Quixote. Throughout Volume I, I kept my mind on the adventures and the life of Cervantes. In Volume II, I have begun to look at the moral lessons or life lessons written by Cervantes. Did he write as many truths in Volume I? Maybe I am just waking up.
Now I see Cervantes not only as a man with humor. I also see Cervantes as a very wise man. I think throughout the life of Don Quixote and his squire and the friends and enemies along the road, Cervantes is writing a way for us to meet and not meet our goals, the positive and negative ways of making our dreams or goals come true.
For example, the man driving along with the lions tells Don Q
"knights errant ought to undertake adventures that promise some hope of success, not those that are completely devoid of hope, for the valor that crosses over into temerity has more to do with madness than courage..."
Marni, I wonder if Mr. Green coat is such a good guy? Maybe the enchanters will lift the enchantment and he won't appear as such a moralistic fellow next time, if we meet him again. He's almost too nice to be true: He doesn't gossip, he goes to Mass everyday and he is hospitable. He's almost too good to be true.
Everytime I think of his green coat I think of Mr. Greenjeans on Captain Kangaroo. Anyway, I laughed at Sancho. He thinks if this guy is so good, he can do miracles. Sancho grabs "the gentleman's right stirrup, and with a devout heart, and almost in tears, he kissed his feet over and over again."
Then, Sancho tops it off by saying,
"I think your grace is the first saint with short stirrups that I've ever seen in my life."
Like
JoanP, I do wonder if there is some meaning to the color "green." Is his coat green because he is as passive as grass? Just a peace loving man? I wonder.
Amparo, I don't think any book has made me laugh so many times. Reading alone doesn't matter, I still break out laughing. I think Marni and I would wake up the dead with our laughter if we were reading Don Q together.
I only wish Amparo and all of us lived in the same time zone.
Mippy
July 21, 2006 - 04:00 am
Adios to my friends, amigas (correct spelling?) ~
While you all continue on the dusty trail with DQ, we are leaving today for Lennox MA, to attend three concerts of the Boston symphony
orchestra at Tanglewood, and returning late Sunday night.
1amparo
July 21, 2006 - 05:56 am
...enjoy the BSO!
Hats, I am glad you like Cervantes. I am sure you would enjoy his biography.
Cheers.
Amparo
Joan Pearson
July 21, 2006 - 06:27 am
Oh yes, Mippy - enjoy the Tanglewood concerts - we'll be looking for you back on the trail on Monday.
I was away from my desk yesterday - a quick trip to New Jersey shore which included a lobster dinner at Klein's on the Shark River inlet. Heaven! Came home late last night and was bowled over by your wonderful posts! Stunning! You dazzle! Just a few quick comments before catching up with you all and that Man in Green. I'm not sure what to make of him.
Maryal - wonderful insights when pondering Cervantes line - "It's easy enough to think up and begin an enterprise, but most of the time it's hard to end it." You write that Cervantes is speaking of himself here, but Isn't it true - for all of us?,
,br>
Hats - a great observation - "Cervantes is writing a way for us to meet and not meet our goals, the positive and negative ways of making our dreams or goals come true." I think he is striking so many true notes - (and so are you)!
Maryal, You mention that Cervantes was ill when he wrote this - do you think the continued references to Don Quixote's pale-as-death" complexion is telling us that Don Quixote is ill too? Or is he still recovering from his escapades from the first volume? Cervantes died of whatever ailed him before Volume II was published. I'm worrying now that his Don Quixote may be physically sick as well as mentally unbalanced - might even be dying.
Don Quixote's sanity is the subject of much discussion in these chapters.
Judy, thinks Don Q. would be diagnosed as having a serious disorder today...even if sane most of the time, the particular delusion would be enough to have him certified as mad. Don Diego sees him as sane - leaning towards mad. It is his particular delusion that is now up for consideration. It is Don Q's belief that knight errantry is the only way to right the wrongs he sees in this world. I don't even see winning Dulcinea as playing a great part in his quest anymore, do you? That brush with reality, with the garlic breath seems to have made her a secondary priority.
Marni, you see having a harder and harder time believing what's real and not real. Do you mean compared to the first volume? I don't see this...not completely. Look at his first reaction to the cart of actors. Did he jump right into combat with them - did he challenge the actor dressed as a knight? It was't until he saw the donkey abuse that he got into it...went out to right the wrong. And when he got into it with the Knight of the Mirrors...he remained calm at his comment about his lady being fairer than Dulcinea ...but when he heard the lie that he had defeated one Don Quixote he accepted the challenge. Even when he discovered the true identity of the Mirror Knight...he remained calm. I see his weakness only in matters of knight errantry. Other than that, he seems to me to have much improved over the knight we met in Volume I.
How mad is it to set the goal of righting wrongs and battling injustice? In any age. Think about it. One can spend one's time pursuing worse goals, don't you think? Do you think he's mad?
Joan Pearson
July 21, 2006 - 06:52 am
Sancho - Hats is trying to figure out if he's lost his grasp on reality on the trail, or if he had already lost it when he chose to start the journey. Yes, he thought he might earn some money, Don Q. was a man of some means in the town, but just one look at him should have been enough to alert him that Don Q. wasn't all there. Keep in mind that Sancho knew nothing of those stories of chivalry and knight errantry. Don Q. was spouting gibberish to him...and still he decided to go along. Why? Is it because he wants to believe in him? Don't we all want a hero, someone to believe in. What an honor to be chosen by someone we want to believe in. Even if that someone is flawed. Did Sancho choose not to see the flaws?
Marni quotes Sancho - "...my master...is more of a madman than a knight." But continues by saying that "he seeks to do good unto all mankind." Marni, Sancho seems to instinctively see beneath the costume of the rusty armor and understand the true mission of a knight errant...and he doesn't find that mad at all.
"Sancho is beginning to use the Don's madness to his advantage." I'm not sure I completely agree with this, Marni, although I understand what you mean. I like what Judy
wrote - "Sancho takes advantage of the Don’s mental state to get out of trouble or avoid doing things expected of him that he doesn’t feel like doing." I think that he is clever, but I also see him more than willing to go on with the knight in his quest to do good. Is he still hoping for that island for himself?
Joan Pearson
July 21, 2006 - 07:22 am
Hello, JoanK - I did notice that you were the first to see through Sanson's disguise, even in the dark! Oh and so glad that your funny meter is registering Cervantes humor. I started smiling while reading the first paragraph of Chapter 16 when Sancho bought the cottage cheese and hid it in the helmet. I thought of you - wondered if you were smiling too...
You are an alert detective - I have to ask if you were at all suspicious of the appearance of the MAN in GREEN in the woods? Just as you ask, "what is Cervantes saying about reality with this knight of the mirrors?" - I'm wondering what he is saying about virtue among the learned with this Green MAN?
"Mighty fancy duds," for the trail, as Hats notes. Marni, you see nothing odd about him, just a nice gentleman on the trail who happens to be wearing green? He is referred to as the MAN IN GREEN, or the Man in the Green Overcoat so many times. Is this just because Don Q. doesn't know his name? I'll have to check to see if he is called Man in Green after he is identified as Don Diego. Marni, don't you think it a bit odd that Don Q. dubs him the KNIGHT of the Green Overcoat? Do you feel he dubs him and then will leave him...without including an episode of madness? I feel we will hear more about him..
Hats, I find him a bit too good to be true too. I'll tell you what I don't like about him...his own description of his virtues - he goes to mass every day, he gives generously to the poor...he is also a self-congratulatory braggart in my book. He lacks an important quality in a "saint" - modesty. I guess just because he rubs me the wrong way, doesn't mean that he isn't a trustworthy character. It's just that Cervantes has portrayed an unlikeable character, and has gullible Sancho taken in, fawning over him.
You ask an interesting question, Hats - why green, why not red, blue?
"Is his coat green because he is as passive as grass? Just a peace loving man?" I wonder. dunno Hats. Cervantes is pretty good at filling in the spaces, hopefully he will explain that in upcoming chapters.
I confess to be on the lookout for the vengeful Sanson all along the trail now. I was half expecting to learn that Mr. Greenjeans' "wicked" son was going to turn out to be Sanson...
Joan Pearson
July 21, 2006 - 08:19 am
Amparo - "The Pen Is the Tongue of the Soul" - yes I agree, Don Quixote/Cervantes is magnificent on the subject of poetry in this chapter...there is so much here! Cervantes bares his soul with his pen while talking to us through his Don Q.
Hats...I was going to agree with you and Don Q. - that persons are born with the gift of writing poetry. Like artists...a talent, some are born with it, some are not. Will be interested to hear why you are second guessing your first comment. Do you think expression through poetry or art can be taught - learned?
"you should allow your son to walk the path to which his star calls him..."Oh so true."
Why is this such a difficult concept for this learned man?
So much wisdom in these pages, as we are coming to realize. When that lionkeeper says,"knights errant ought to undertake adventures that promise some hope of success, not those that are completely devoid of hope, for the valor that crosses over into temerity has more to do with madness than courage..." - he could be talking about any human enterprise, couldn't he? Like writing poetry, for instance.
I'd be interested in hearing about what you thought of Don Diego's extensive library...no books on knight errantry (remember he thinks these books are all lies - does he feel this way about all fiction, I wonder?) There were the Greek and Roman classics, some devotional books, but more of the secular - though not from Spain. Were they imported? I've been watching for some indications of the Renaissance influence in Spain. Up to this point, saw none, figuring that the Inquisition was doing a super job of keeping Spain ignorant of the new freedoms. I'd be so happy if you would take a closer look at Don Diego's book shelf - three or four pages into Chapter XVI and tell what you see in this learned gentleman's collection. I may be reading too much into the paragraph!
Hats - I agree, we'd probably find so much more with each reading of the whole novel.
Isn't it amazing that we are just discovering Don Q. now, at this time in our lives? I never would have done this without you all. Have been putting it off for years. And to have Amparo with us is a blessing beyond words. We need a poet to fully express our gratitude!
ps, I can't believe all this typing and no mention of the hilarious episode...the lions! But it's your turn now, I've taken up enough of your time and space here.
Deems
July 21, 2006 - 10:32 am
I'll take the lion episode because it made me laugh, just like Amparo, who I think said it was her favorite of all the adventures. Correct me if I've remembered the wrong person.
I got to thinking--after the laughing calmed down what with the lion showing his backside to our gallant knight--about lions.
Don Quixote decides that he must challenge these lions (that the "enchanters") have sent his way even though the man accompanying them tells him that 1) they are being sent to the King and 2) they are very hungry, so hungry in fact that he wants to get the mules out of the way so the lions won't devour them when DQ insists that he opens the door to one of the cages.
Here's Grossman's rendering of what this huge lion does when the door to the cage is opened wide:
The first thing the lion did was to turn around in the cage where he had been lying and unsheathe his claws and stretch his entire body; then he opened his mouth, and yawned very slowly, and extended a tongue almost two spans long, and cleaned the dust from his eyes and washed his face; when this was finished, he put his head out of the cage and looked all around with eyes like coals, a sight and a vision that could frighten temerity itself. Only Don Quixote looked at him attentively, wanting him to leap from the wagon and come within reach of his hands, for he intended to tear him to pieces.
These are the extremes to which Don Quixote's unprecedented madness took him. But the magnanimous lion, more courteous than arrogant, took no notice of either childishness or bravado, and after looking in both directions, as has been said, he turned his back, and showed his hindquarters to Don Qixote, and with great placidity and calm went back inside his cage.
What a wonderful non-confrontation. The lion has himself a bath, just like any cat, looks around, and then curls up to go back to sleep, after "mooning" our knight.
Here's the part where I started to think about lions. Lions on the savannah, lions who live in prides, lions who are lazy much of the time. . . . . . And then it came to me. This was a MALE lion. Female lions do most of the hunting and killing for the pride, not males. Males lie around in the sunshine and wait for dinner to be served.
Then I started wondering if Cervantes did this on purpose because he knew about lions or whether he did it because it wouldn't be in Don Quixote's nature to challenge a FEMALE of any species.
Amparo--I see why you love this adventure!!
And a for Hats!
judywolfs
July 21, 2006 - 02:05 pm
Marni, I don’t exactly see anything suspicious about the man in the green coat either, which is EXACTLY what makes me suspicious of him! I would say Don Quioxite’s main delusion is that he is truly and in fact a knight errant. It reminds me of various people wandering the streets in our larger cities who claim to be angels, or best friends of the president, or CIA agents.
Anyway, about DQ’s stated knightly goals of righting wrongs, battling injustice, etc; His intentions are good, his actions are ridiculous. For the most part, I would say he talks a good fight. Which is pointed out once again after his wonderfully celebrated defeat of the lions.
~JudyS
Deems
July 21, 2006 - 05:11 pm
I see the man in the green coat and his hospitality as Part II's payback for the unpleasant hospitality that Don Quixote endured in that awful inn in Part I. Every time he stayed there he got into trouble. It felt so good to have him royally entertained even though the family couldn't figure out whether he was mad or sane. They took good care of him.
But now he is well fed and entertained. There's even the son, was he Don Lorenzo??--who is a poet and who mightily pleases Don Quixote.
I wasn't suspicious of the Knight of the Green Coat. I thought he was there to provide another conversation with Don Quixote about poetry. Oh, and also, the discussion about writing in the vernacular, the language of the country where the writer lived. Still, in the early 17th century, the classical languages, especially Latin, were reserved for serious matters. The discussion about poetry and the vernacular is in Chapter XVI.
Did everyone notice that the Knight of the Mirrors' squire, Tome Cecil was a very close neighbor of Sancho. His house "shares a wall with mine," Sancho tells Quixote. No wonder Tome had to wear that fantastical nose!
Hope you had a good time at the concerts, Mippy, when you return.
Tomorrow is Play #3, but I'll try to get on in the morning.
1amparo
July 21, 2006 - 06:22 pm
JoanP, your post 355:
"Cervantes died of whatever ailed him before Volume II was published."
According to the experts Cervantes died of diabetes.
Amparo
JoanK
July 21, 2006 - 07:20 pm
MARNI: Tanglewood sounds wonderful. I only got there once, but what an experience!
I've just ordered a movie called "Guitterra: a Musical Journey through Spain". which is supposed to trace the musical history of guitar music in Spain. Amparo, do you know this movie? I know you like guitar music.
I'm trying to remember the music in DQ -- there are many incidents when someone is playing, but I didn't notice if guitars were used.
I've fallen behind again. I'll comment on greencoat after I've read it.
marni0308
July 21, 2006 - 08:36 pm
Hi, JoanK! I think it's Mippy who is going to Tanglewood. Joan, I was thinking about you, too, when I saw the Gouldian finches at the butterfly conservatory. Have you ever seen any? You know a lot about birds. We also saw funny birds with barely any tails - button quail. And we saw baby button quail right after they had hatched. Teeny! And so cute!
Have a wonderful time, Mippy! I hope you have good weather. Tanglewood is a place I have wanted to go to for many many years for a concert and I have just never gone. One of these days.....We've driven through the area - Lenox, MA, and it is very beautiful. It's in the Berkshire Mountains.
I still haven't seen anything suspicious about the Man in the Green Coat and I've read quite a few chapters now past the one where the Don met him on the road. I think Cervantes (or his translators) name characters after clothes they are wearing or after something particular in their appearance. I just think he was wearing a green coat. I found Cervantes' description of the man interesting and very detailed. I'd like to see a painting of the man and his fancy duds. You could tell by his clothes that he was wealthy - everything matched, even his green shoes. (boots?) He obviously cared about his appearance. When the man told the Don about himself, I didn't get the feeling about him that he was bragging at all. I thought he and his wife seemed extremely pleasant and cordial.
marni0308
July 21, 2006 - 08:38 pm
Hi, Hats! Yes, we'd have a blast laughing together talking about episodes of Don Quixote!
JoanK
July 21, 2006 - 09:15 pm
MARNI, MIPPY: I did it again! Sorry.
No, I've never seen Gouldian finches. They aren't native to the US. From the link below, they are mainly cage birds, who are rare and endangered in the wild. I didn't catch their native habitat -- from the bright colors I'd guess in a jungle.
<a=href"http://www.efinch.com/species/gould.htm">GOULDIAN FINCHES
They are beautiful birds. Our native finches are less spectacular, but still beautiful.
1amparo
July 21, 2006 - 10:04 pm
What about that!? Makes me feel better to know I am not the only one getting names wrong; -yours and JoanP. Now, don't put any ideas into me 'cos next time I know I will get Mippy's and Marni's wrongly too.
Sorry girls!
Gouldian Finches are natives of northern Australia and when we used to live in North Queensland some would come to our trees: very pretty fellows!
GOULDIAN FINCHES Your link, JoanK. Hope you don't mind me copying it as your link would not come up.
Amparo 2.45 pm. Saturday
hats
July 22, 2006 - 01:52 am
JoanK and Amparo, the Gouldian Finch is gorgeous! I have made him my wallpaper. I have never seen one. Those colors are just so bright and pretty.
Joan Pearson
July 22, 2006 - 04:52 am
Goodness, look at all these posts since I logged out last night! Where to begin?
Wouldn't it be wonderful if you could all come to Virginia in October for SeniorNet's big birthday celebration? We'd have so much to talk about - to laugh about. Amparo is making the trip from Australia. Will you consider it? (This is not to say that we can't have a grand time together here. )
The finch is breathtaking - I was expecting something exotic before clicking the link, but those colors are unbelievable! To have actually seen one must have been unforgettable! Thank you for the link!
Music in Don Quixote - JoanK, I remember much unaccompanied singing in volume II, but very shortly, in Chapter XX, there is a big wedding scene in which "a thousand musical instruments" - Dore has captured a scene which should interest you.
Musical instruments in Don Quixote
JoanK, yes do, read the chapters on the Knight of the Green Overcoat and let us know what you think? We seem to be divided in our esteem for the gentleman. (I can't stand him, don't distrust him...just don't like him.
Marni, you don't find him too pleased with himself? I guess I don't like anyone who introduces himself by listing his virtues.) We'll see more of him in Chapter XVIII today. Those of you reading Grossman's translation - does Grossman refer to Don Diego's house as
a castle in the opening line of chapter XVIII? If so, this is deliberate on Cervantes part. Does Don Diego represent Spain's nobility?
Coffee's ready...
hats
July 22, 2006 - 05:13 am
Good morningJoanP, Grossman uses the word "house" to describe Don Diego's living quarters. I bet it's quite a fancy house more like a castle. Don Diego is wealthy. It seems the translator doesn't want to spend too much time on these sort of detail. "because they did not accord with the principal purpose of the history, whose strength lies more in its truth than in cold digressions."
I am glad the Don and Sancho enjoyed such a quiet and hospitable meal at the knight of the Green Coat's home. After all the other trouble at inns like Maryal described, Don Q and Sancho deserve this kind treatment. This is my favorite line.
"....the marvelous silence that reigned throughout the hourse, which seemed like a Carthusian monastery."
The Carthusian monastery seems familiar. Did it appear earlier in Don Q?
JoanP, thank you for the Dore link.
Joan Pearson
July 22, 2006 - 05:19 am
Good morning, Hats! Thank you for Grossman's "castle"...our Don cleans up well in Don Diego's castle, doesn't he? (Will check on the monastery now.) I think this respite will do them both well. Don Quiote needs to get his color back. (Amparo tells us that Cervantes died from his diabetes. Does anyone know if this affects one's coloring?) I'm wondering whether Don Q. is ill too.
Lions -
Maryal - it's not clear whether Cervantes knew about the male/female lions' habits - but you don't really suspect that Don Q. was putting on a false show of bravery in facing a male lion he knew would not attack? Didn't he tell the lion keeper to open both cages? However, the lion keeper may have had the knowledge you describe, knew the male lion would not attack - maybe that's the reason he opened his cage first. This would explain the hungry male lion's indifference to our knight.
Don't you wonder what inspired this episode? First I thought of Richard the Lion-Hearted, but I just noticed the reference to the fable of Pyramus and Thisbe in the Chapter XVIII - which includes lions! Here's a link to the fable.
Sancho and Don Diego had different opinions of Don Quixote's bravery and daring -
Don Diego - "One minute a sane man, next a lunatic because what Don Quiote said was harmonious, elegant and well-phrased, while his actions were insane, rash and idiotic..."
Sancho - "Don Q. would rather have said of himself..."the knight is reckless and excessively bold, than the knight is timid and a coward."
"His intentions are good, his actions are ridiculous. For the most part, I would say he talks a good fight." You said it, Judy - Do you judge people by what they say or what they do? Read on, more on this subject in Chapter XVIII!
Joan Pearson
July 22, 2006 - 05:31 am
You've a great memory, Hats! Back in Volume I, Chapter XIII - " "It seems to
me, Senor Knight-errant, that your worship has made choice of one of
the most austere professions in the world, and I imagine even that
of the Carthusian monks is not so austere."
I must say here, that I LOVED the poetry in Chapter XVIII. It seems to me that lurking beneath the whole story of Don Quixote is a story of lost love, of rejection. Do you sense that? The rejection seems to come from class distinction. Yet, I don't see anything of that in Cervantes' biography. I wonder if he has treated the same subject in any of this in his other works...
hats
July 22, 2006 - 05:34 am
JoanP, I love the poetry too. Thank you for the quotation about the Carthusian monastery. I felt sure my memory had gone off again.
Deems
July 22, 2006 - 06:40 am
Come on, everyone, somebody PAINTED that bird!
What a beautiful Gouldian Finch
to look upon first thing this morning! It looks like the Master Painter had been doing parrots for a while and then this little finch came along and the paint pots were already open to these splendid colors so . . . .
A real treat for this greyish cast-over day (soon no doubt to become brighter and even more humid) in Maryland.
JoanP, Hats has already answered about the castle. The opening sentence of Chap XVIII is "Don Quixote found Don Diego de Miranda's house to be spacious in the rustic manner. . . ."
However, note well, at the end of the chapter, as our knight is leaving, the last sentence:
"The compliments and courtesies were repeaated, and with the kind permission of the lady of the castle, Don Quixote and Sancho, mounted on Rocinante and the donkey, took their leave."
As for the poetry in this chapter, I too find it charming and much better (even in translation) than those tiresome sonnets in Part I. I enjoyed reading it.
Joan P, I wasn't thinking that Don Quixote was choosing the less dangerous lion. You're right; he wanted both doors open. My comment was restricted to Cervantes. I wondered if HE knew about lions and their fierceness.
One more thought on the lions. I enjoyed the little side reference to Don Manuel de Leon who retrieved a glove from a lion's cage at the request of a lady and then slapped her for needlessly endangering the life of a knight (Grossman's footnote, p 563). I've heard that story before somewhere and like it every time I see a reference to it. What on earth was this lady thinking to make such a request. Good for don Manuel for slappping her!
Also Don Quixote announced that from now on he wanted his sobriquet to be the Knight of the Lions instead of the Knight of the Sorrowful Face. We will have to see if this happens in future adventures.
Maryal
1amparo
July 22, 2006 - 08:30 am
I have been to several "photos safaris" in Kenya's Massai Mara, Zambia and South Africa. Yes, females in the savannah do the hunting then step back till all the males have had their feed. However it is a well known fact that lions (males included) in captivity will attack (not necessarily hunt) any strangers mad enough to get close to them.
Wouldn't it be lovely! if we could all get together and have a good laugh. Came on girls!
Sunday 1 am. Why am I writing at this time?, because I have been out with friends and we had watched the old movie "Three Little Words" in a very little theatre: just like in old times! And so to bed.
Amparo
Joan Pearson
July 23, 2006 - 05:40 am
OK, I will take care of the wine...don't want any broken bottles in transit. Please do, all consider coming to the birthday party at the end of October? The weather is never better than October in the DC area, and this is a great opportunity to meet many of the far-flung SeniorNetters all in one spot at the same time - as well as one another!
We're scheduled to move on to the next adventure today, but there's so much in Chapter 18 and so many of you are off on weekend jaunts, let's put that off and spend the day rereading it, okay? Chapter 19 dwells on this fable of Pyramus and Thisbi - it seems we MUST read it to be as familiar with it as Cervantes was as he wrote this. He refers to it THREE times! (I think we need go no further to find the inspiration for the lions than this fable.)
Amparo, what amazing experiences - those "photo shoots" - I'm still smiling at Cervantes' hungry lion, turning his rump to our Don rather than attacking him. No matter how hungry he was, the sight of this sallow, bloodless looking creature in rusting armor did not look like anything that would slake his appetite! It's a good thing the lion keeper convinced him not to tempt fate a second time. Prodding him would probably have set him off.
Joan K - "The lions killed the Christians, but the lions became extinct and Christianity survived. There has to be a moral in that somewhere." I agree. How does it apply here? I'm walking around thinking about this since I read your post yesterday.
Maryal - you found the two poems charming? Will you give some specifics? I found Don Lorenzo's response so moving - but my first thought was that he was too young to have penned these lines. Unless he was going through the pangs of young love, lost young love. Still, he couldn't know - what we all here know. To me these are the thoughts of an oldster - to me, the regrets sound like Cervantes speaking.
What was your favorite line(s) in this poem - in the one that Don Lorenzo wrote for the competition? Mine was - "...the sky of yesterday is gone like yesterday's song."
Remember yesterday? - when the sky was the limit? When all things were possible?
Have a super Sunday, everyone - off for the day. Look forward to hearing from you. Again, read the fable because it will replay again in chapter 19, okay?
Deems
July 23, 2006 - 09:11 am
Thanks, Joan P. I had forgotten the myth of Pyramus and Thisbe, remembering only that they were young lovers who died young. I've always had a tendency to mix up myths.
Everyone please take note that the guilty/not guilty animal is a lioness. The female of the species is more deadly than the male.
The one part I remembered clearly from the myth was that wall they used to communicate through.
Have a good Sunday, everyone. I am exhausted after dinner out, learning a new game, and the play. The game I learned was the one with piles of markers in holes on a wooden board where you pick up a pile and drop the markers one by one in the following holes. It's a simple game (daughter says African in origin) but I lost every time.
JoanK
July 23, 2006 - 05:42 pm
DEEMS: you and me. I always lose every time!! I made the mistake of marrying a chess player, and when he tried to teach me, I realized I'll never be able to see the board the way he did.
Hmm: a moral? The knight conquered the lion, but knights became extinct and lions (presumably another species) didn't?
Finally caught up. The man in the green coat seems suspicuous only because he's introduced with a fanfare and then becomes a nothing character. Either we'll see him later, or he's only a means to get off Sancho's joke (short stirrups?) and lead to a forum on poetry.
Iris Murdoch wrote a book about a man in a green coat who turned out to be a takeoff on Gawain and the Green knight. The only way I can trace a parallel is through greencoat's speech on how good he is. Let's wait and see if he turns up again.
I'll post a link to Gowain later. Have to get ready to watch Miss Marple in a blizzard (turned up air conditioning and hot cocoa).
Deems
July 23, 2006 - 08:02 pm
Joan K--Laughed at your turning up the A/C and making cocoa. I just watched the Miss Marple you are referring to. It did make one a little colder---the blizzard--even without turning up the A/C.
Daughter is exceptionally good at games. Now there's another one I will refuse to play with her. I'm pretty good at Bridge--or used to be, haven't played in years. I might not be good any more at all.
OK, we are caught up except for Mippy who is probably still listening to music. And tomorrow we move on to new chapters. I'll have to get up early and read them.
marni0308
July 23, 2006 - 08:46 pm
I'm just catching up on this weekend's posts. We were off yesterday antiquing in the Berkshires around Great Barrington, MA. On our way home we watched part of a competition of sheep dog trials. That was so fun! It was just like in the movie Babe (about the pig). Sheep dogs competed by shepherding 3 sheep down a long field and between 3 sets of gates within a certain amount of time. Competitors came from all over the US and Canada.
Joan Pearson
July 24, 2006 - 04:21 am
Good morning, welcome home weekend vacationers - from blizzards, plays, concerts, sheep dog competition and antiquing! (Did you bring home anything, Marni? I usually have more fun looking than buying...)
JoanK - Your mention of Sir Gawain and the Green knight reminded me of the discussion we had years ago here in the Great Books - I searched the Archives and found it - I'm convinced that Cervantes was familiar with this story - this is from the heading of our 1999 discussion of
Sir Gawain and the Green Knight
(ca.1375-1400):"This poem is both a tragic romance with the sad moral that perfection is beyond our grasp and an unromantic comedy with the happy point that if a man aims high enough he can come as near perfection as this world allows."
What do you think? As you say though, Cervantes' Knight in the Green Coat is a "nothing character- a means to the forum on poetry," which led to the lions, the fable of Pyramus and Thisbe...and right into the next episode, the wedding between Quiteria, the beautiful farmer's daughter and Comacho the Rich. Oh and of course, the unhappy poor boy, Basilio, who has grown up loving her. Quiteria and Basilio= Thisbe and Pyramus. Here's the Fable of Pyramus and Thisbe if you haven't had the chance to look over it yet. Because Cervantes mentions the fable three times, it must have been in his mind. As Maryal remembered, the pair of the fable end up tragically dead - I think that we need to discuss the next three chapters as a whole or the ending will be spoiled for you.
So. If you are just catching up on Green Man and Don Lorenzo's poetry, we'd love to hear your comments. IF you haven't read Chapters 19, 20 and 21, it would be good idea to do that first before getting into a discussion of these three chapters. We'll wait...not going anywhere.
Happy Monday! Just love Mondays! Brand new week - lots of time to accomplish so much!
judywolfs
July 24, 2006 - 07:01 am
Now there's a first for me - somebody saying they love Mondays!
I didn't find the wedding chapters very enjoyable; it might have been because I was reading in bits and pieces in between chores and other obligations, so I got through those chapters a bit haphazardly. The exaggerated, detailed descriptions of the heroric amount of food prepared for the wedding was interesting, reminded me of some viking gods and goddesses myths and their feasts at Valhalla.
I didn't like that wedding play about Love versus "Interest."
~JudyS
marni0308
July 24, 2006 - 08:01 am
I particularly enjoyed the part about Sancho's hunt for food (of course!) at the wedding and the giant portion he was given. Imagine all the memories he had of that feast!
JoanP: We didn't buy any antiques at all. Just looked and enjoyed. I was tempted a few times but common sense won out, thank goodness. We did enjoy ourselves very much, though, despite the weather.
Joan Pearson
July 24, 2006 - 09:42 am
Judy, I thought that was a strange little skit between "Love" and "Interest" - is that what your translation calls it? Raffel says "Love and Money." I think I read that Comacho had something to do with the selection...but then I remember reading that the village priest chose it. Either way, I thought it odd to include it at the wedding. Everyone seemed to know that Basilio would make an appearance. Why this skit then? Comacho's money rules over Basilio's love?
Marni...I liked the description of the food and the clothing - we get a glimpse into the late 16th, early 17th customs. Sancho is drooling at the prospects of what the wedding feast will be, judging from the appetizer! Read on - to see how he fares...
You're lucky Bob likes to antique - Bruce will only "shop" - under protest - if we are heading out to "buy" something. Not a looker!
Which reminds me...at the start of Chapter 19, our duo meets the students who are returning from a shopping expedition themselves. I loved that...
Phyll did you perk up at the "two new pair of homemade wool socks they bought?" Have you ever knitted argyles? I like to think of knitting going on back then? Would like to look into the history of knitting one of these days and see how far back it goes...probably Noah's wife knitted up some socks when they sheared the sheep who travelled on the ark...
Mippy
July 24, 2006 - 11:20 am
We returned late last night from Tanglewood, a Mozart weekend by the Boston Symphony Orchestra! Absolutely wonderful!
Friday was the last piano Concerto, #27, and the Jupiter Symphony. Sat. was the fabulous opera,
Don Giovanni in concert format. Sunday was the Post Horn Concertante, plus the controversial Requiem which Mozart did not live to finish. What a privilege to hear!
Don Giovanni and his servant Leporello are such a close parallel in interaction as well as love/hate emotions to our DQ and Sancho! I'm sure Mozart's librettist, de Ponzi, was well acquainted with the work of Cervantes. The comedy is wonderful in the opera when performed well, and there is even a funny food scene, too; Leporello is sneaking part of his master's dinner, and he sings with his mouth (pretending to be) full of food, so the words are slurred.
This was a fabulous performance, staged as well as directed by the incomparable James Levine. Except for the tragic ending of the opera, appropriate since Giovanni's behavior was not knightly, the two sets of men have so much in common.
Now I have to get back to our book and catch up. I love the way he brings in the Pyramis and Thesbe fable!
Deems
July 24, 2006 - 03:24 pm
I'm one of those who have to catch up!! I had an eye doctor appointment today which took longer than I thought it would plus shopping and cleaning. Doesn't sound like much, but no time to read the three chapters. So I'll get to it soonest and be back with something to say.
In the meantime, while shopping I actually found some MANCHEGO cheese--expensive item, isn't it? I got the smallest piece they had and it was more than $7!! But I was so excited to see it that I threw caution to the winds and brought it home.
Thank you to all who told me that it wasn't strong--it's not. And it's also not hard. I had a small chunk of it and found it quite good. Kept thinking that I should be having a little wine with it, not to mention some company. I felt so adventurous because as anyone who knows me can testify, I am very unadventurous about food. I try new things only when absolutely convinced that I might like them. I prefer to have a little taste of someone else's food before I order it. Very adventurous in some arenas, just not food.
Now, what was that wine I was supposed to enjoy with the cheese??
Welcome back, Mippy and Marni--your weekends sound like fun.
Maryal
Joan Pearson
July 24, 2006 - 03:38 pm
OKay, pour the wine, any red will do, nibble the cheese and read these three short chapters on the wedding. Ask self what is Don Quixote's role in all this? Shouldn't take long. Just don't eat all $7.00 worth of the cheese in one sitting!
Deems
July 24, 2006 - 06:07 pm
And don't worry, Joan P, I didn't eat anywhere near all of it. Remember what I said about being cautious about new foods.
OK, the chapters read, I have a couple of observations to make. One of them is a little off the main subject, but I can't resist.
Chap 19 seems to have two items of consideration: should parents choose their children’s spouses and whether or not a handbook on fencing can teach you how to be excellent with a sword. Surprisingly, Corchuelo is gracious in defeat and even happy “that I fell off my high horse, and that experience has shown me a truth I refused to acknowledge.”
Here's the off-the-point bit--Chap 20’s opening is so conventional that it would have been extremely funny for Cervantes’ readers. I don’t know how many poets had already written of rosy dawn and Phoenix and his chariot, but there would have been hundreds. Cervantes certainly does it all to a fare-thee-well:
“No sooner had fair-complexioned dawn allowed bright Phoebus, with the ardor of his burning rays, to dry the liquid pearls of her golden tresses. . . .”
This conventional praise of the dawn occurs also in Chap 14, about two pages in:
By this time a thousand different kinds of brightly colored birds began to warble in the trees, and with their varied and joyous songs they seemed to welcome and greet the new dawn, who, through the doors and balconies of the Orient, was revealing the beauty of her face and shaking from her hair an infinite number of liquid pearls whose gentle liquor bathed the plants. . .”
As for the performance before the wedding, it’s pretty clear that it is an acting out of the contest between Basilio and Camacho for the hand of the fair Quiteria. I was pretty sure that Basilio wasn’t mortally wounded. It was surprising to find Don Quixote supporting Basilio especially after what he said about parents having the right to marry their children to whomever seemed best to them and the world going pretty quickly to hell in a handbasket if children could just pick whomever they wanted.
Maryal
marni0308
July 24, 2006 - 08:55 pm
Maryal: I was sure, also, that Basilio wasn't mortally wounded. At first, when he told Quiteria at the wedding that she couldn't marry anyone as long as he was alive, I was thinking he was going to kill himself. And then I thought Hmmmmmm....He's up to something. Which he was. The thing that surprised me the most was that everyone allowed him to get away with his ruse. I figured the jilted prospective bridegroom would kill him. But it was "all's well that ends well" with everyone living happily ever after.
marni0308
July 24, 2006 - 08:56 pm
I think that Amparo mentioned Manzanilla as a Spanish wine.??
Joan Pearson
July 25, 2006 - 06:17 am
Good morning and welcome home, Mippy! What a time you've had at Tanglewood! Thanks for sharing it with us. You got me thinking that from here on out, we are going to be seeing Cervantes influence on art, music and literature at every turn. Is it because his writing has prodded the imagination that so stimulates the arts?
Now where's Phyll...probably way ahead of us under the shade of those lemon trees. Perhaps she's made some lemonade for those of us who are afraid to imbibe in the Manzanilla wine while maneuvering those slow mules in the hot sun. Phyll, after reading of the homemade socks those two students purchased at the market, I just had to look up the history of knitting - found some facts relevant to our discussion - "Knitted socks discovered in Egyptian tombs have been dated between the 3rd and 6th centuries AD. In the medieval Europe hand knitting was an important industry and had developed into an advanced craft by 16th century." History of Knitting
************************************
"Currently it is believed that knitting was first invented by Arabian nomads who carried the craft into Egypt. From there the craft was carried through North Africa and into Spain where it was picked up by traveling members of the Catholic church and spread rapidly throughout Europe."Knitting history
I've read your posts from yesterday and have to admit I'm completely confused at this point . I'm seeing two sides to every argument he puts forth. Am not certain whether this indicates Cervantes'inner conflict or whether I'm missing the point in his message - (which is more likely the case.
Coffee break, back in five...
Joan Pearson
July 25, 2006 - 06:45 am
Maryal, thank you for calling our attention to Cervantes' rather "homeric" writing style as he introduces these chapters. I remember smiling at it too. Do you think it will continue past this episode? Somehow it works here - under the influence of the ancient fable.
Marni - you are just too smart, always a jump ahead of Cervantes! Did you read the fable before you suspected Basilio's scheme? I am quite certain that Cervantes' readers were familiar with the fable of Pyramus and Thisbe because of his frequent references to it - without explanation. The wedding guests would be quite convinced a tragic ending will be played out. In the fable, Thisbe is so distraught at the sight of her dead Pyramus that she takes her own life - they end up together for eternity in a shared grave.
Mippy, I liked the way Cervantes used the myth too - did you notice lions suspected of killing Thisbe? Lions are blamed for their ferocity which never quite fulfills expectations, have you noticed?
Don't you think it was because the assembled were expecting a tragedy, that it was with relief that they accepted the ruse, Marni? And the bridegroom we are told "had been so affected by Quiteria's spurning him that, in an instant he wiped her out of his mind." No love lost here! hahahaha!
So here are the points of my confusion -
Does Cervantes believe that birds of a feather should flock together, as Sancho says?
Or does he, Cervantes, believe that love should prevail, no matter what one's social standing?
Does he believe a maiden should have a say in selecting her future husband?
Has Don Quixote undergone a role change in these chapters? He seems a thoughtful - and wise judge - Remember the two students in the beginning. Didn't he conclude that skill (education) always wins over strength? Is that a strange idea for Cervantes who seems to pooh pooh the students throughout the book? Am I missing a point here?
He also defends true love and the marriage between the poor peasant boy and the rich farmer's daughter, but then like Maryal, I too was "surprised to find Don Quixote supporting Basilio especially after what he said about parents having the right to marry their children to whomever seemed best to them and the world going pretty quickly to hell in a handbasket if children could just pick whomever they wanted."
I'd love to know what you think at this point...where does Cervantes stand on these issues? Is he bucking the beliefs and practices of his time - is he way ahead of his time? OR is he struggling to reconcile his own beliefs with the conventional wisdom? Do you know what I think? He's had a rough experience with an unattainable lady in his personal life!
Phyll
July 25, 2006 - 07:47 am
From Joan P: "Phyll did you perk up at the "two new pair of homemade wool socks they bought?" Have you ever knitted argyles? I like to think of knitting going on back then? Would like to look into the history of knitting one of these days and see how far back it goes...probably Noah's wife knitted up some socks when they sheared the sheep who travelled on the ark..." As a matter of fact, I have looked up the origin of knitting and it is unclear of just when or where it actually started. Some claim it started BC in the Middle East and North Africa (and they speak of the discovery of knitted socks in Egyptian tombs that you referenced) and others claim that it is an offspring of an ancient craft known as Naelbinding that used only one needle, short lengths of yarn, and made a kind of cloth from knots. Apparently the first
written records of knitting came in about the 14th cent. And the first knitted items were SOCKS! So our friends were following the popular trend when they purchased socks at the market. Interestingly enough to those of us who knit...it was quite awhile before the purl stitch was invented so everything was knitted in the round and then cut open! That's a scary thought!
One of my very favorite poems is by a Chilean poet, Pablo Neruda, who wrote this wonderful poem. I think of it every time I pull on a pair of hand knitted socks.
Ode to My Socks
by Pablo Neruda (translated by Robert Bly)
Mara Mori brought me
a pair of socks
which she knitted herself
with her sheepherder's hands,
two socks as soft as rabbits.
I slipped my feet into them
as if they were two cases
knitted with threads of twilight and goatskin,
Violent socks,
my feet were two fish made of wool,
two long sharks
sea blue, shot through
by one golden thread,
two immense blackbirds,
two cannons,
my feet were honored in this way
by these heavenly socks.
They were so handsome for the first time
my feet seemed to me unacceptable
like two decrepit firemen,
firemen unworthy of that woven fire,
of those glowing socks.
Nevertheless, I resisted the sharp temptation
to save them somewhere as schoolboys
keep fireflies,
as learned men collect
sacred texts,
I resisted the mad impulse to put them
in a golden cage and each day give them
birdseed and pieces of pink melon.
Like explorers in the jungle
who hand over the very rare green deer
to the spit and eat it with remorse,
I stretched out my feet and pulled on
the magnificent socks and then my shoes.
The moral of my ode is this:
beauty is twice beauty
and what is good is doubly good
when it is a matter of two socks
made of wool in winter.
judywolfs
July 25, 2006 - 08:01 am
What a cozy, nice poem, Phyll! Even though it's 80 degrees out and muggy, it makes me want to wear a thick soft pair of hand knitted socks, which I've never even seen in my life.
I can’t for the life of me figure out the answer to one of the above questions about chapter XXI: Could somebody explain the humor about DQ's wedding speech re: "Did you catch the wry humor in his line, "two people joined by God may not be sundered?"
I don't see any humor in that. Help!
~JudyS
Deems
July 25, 2006 - 08:22 am
Thank you for Neruda's poem, Phyll--I love it too. I taught it once to my freshmen who kept waiting for me to find deeper and deeper meanings in it (as I guess their high school teachers had). They kept asking, after I looked at the language and the love and friendship in the poem, what this poem was really about. And I said--socks that came as a gift from a friend. Good socks, warm socks, etc. At first they couldn't believe that a poem could be about socks.
Joan P--You are a hopeless romantic. Furthermore, you seem to think that we can, from what he wrote, figure out where Cervantes stood on the issue of who gets to choose marriage partners. And that he had some sort of tragic love experience himself. Maybe so, maybe not.
You might as well ask what side Shakespeare was on. Pick a play with opposing viewpoints. Can you tell which side Shakespeare was on?????
For me, the greatness of Cervantes lies especially in his presenting several sides to an argument. I have no idea where he stood on this particular one. Although I have read that his own marriage was not happy. He spent very little time with his wife.
Maryal
Mippy
July 25, 2006 - 11:00 am
Maryal ~ Excellent point about Shakespeare!
I may be absent some of the time this week, as family including 2 grandchildren under 5, are arriving from CA momentarily. As well as my other 2 kids coming in from out of town. Full house, full heart!
Deems
July 25, 2006 - 12:04 pm
Mippy--Have a wonderful time with your full house! Sounds like you are really looking forward to it.
hats
July 25, 2006 - 12:32 pm
Mippy, enjoy!
Joan Pearson
July 25, 2006 - 01:41 pm
Mippy - enjoy the little ones while you can. They don't stay little like this for long. High energy! You will need at least a day to recover when they go home!!
Phyll, I've printed out Neruda's poem...you made my day!!!
Maryal - Oh, I never felt the angst behind Shakespeare's words in the love/rejection department. This is not anything that I can prove, it's just something I sense. Oh, that's what "romantics" do, isn't it? I guess it's not the first time I've done this, is it? I was the one who empathized with the mother of the man-eating Grendel when we did Beowulf, remember? It's good to have you all to keep me grounded when I go off. (But I still sense personal involvement, rejection in Cervantes.)
Funny you mention Shakespeare...I just finished reading Act IV of his Love's Labor's Lost - (I never read the fifth Act of his plays before attending a play) - we're leaving shortly for Michael Kahn's production at the Shakespeare Theater in town. Have you had the chance to see this play? It plays until Sunday, I think.
A rather silly play, in my estimation. Dare I say that about anything the great one has penned? Well, there's not much to the plot, and there's lots of talking heads - each page laced with so many play on words that you spend most of your time reading the notes...the "translation." I'm looking forward to see the stage presentation and how they handle it!
What DID interest me about this play - it was written in the 1590's...and it deals with the subject of women. The introduction tells that "women were either to be be feared and avoided as seductresses who tempt young men away from heroic endeavor, or are instead to be worshiped as goddesses who are men's sole guide to wisdom." This is the premise that men of this period are said to have accepted in England, but the reality proves otherwise in this play.
"What God has joined, let no man put asunder." Judy...maybe humor is too big and broad a word to describe this wry remark. As if the marriage was performed without deceit and dishonesty. I suppose Quiteria DID promise to take Basilio as her husband as long as they both should live, but she thought he was bleeding to death! She thought she was granting him his dying wish.
Grounds for annulment, once she saw that this was not the case? Hadn't you been wondering whether or not she really loved the shepherd boy? We never did hear that - until the very end of the story. She could have chosen to stay with Comacho, but he's lost interest! In fact, he's so happy to put it all behind him, he's willing to foot the bill for the elaborate wedding feast to go on without him. Did he stick around for it? I forget.
Deems
July 25, 2006 - 05:10 pm
JoanP--Have a good time at the play. I leave Shakespeare's comedies alone for the most part. Just don't like them. Too many people who disguise themselves--or change sex--and too many couples to keep track of. I think his very most best language is in the history plays and the tragedies. So you get a pass from me for not being entirely enthusiastic about the comedies. But I do want to hear your review.
I DO remember you and Grendel's mother! It's OK to be a romantic. And maybe Cervantes did have some sort of rejection from youth to deal with. However, you have to admit that writers are able to transform all sorts of experience, as well as the experience of others, closely observed into memorable fiction.
Phyll
July 25, 2006 - 05:33 pm
I wondered exactly that, Joan! That Quiteria wasn't all that excited about marrying Basilio, after all. When they pressed her for her decision she hesitated a long time.
"but she, harder than marble and more unmoved than any statue,
seemed unable or unwilling to utter a word, nor would she have given
any reply had not the priest bade her decide quickly what she meant to do,"
I wonder if at the final moment she realized that if Basilio didn't die she was giving up the wealth and comfortable life that she could have with Comacho for something a lot less. No more big parties or beautiful dresses for the wife of a shepherd boy. Maybe she was having second thoughts and that is why she hesitated so long?
JoanK
July 25, 2006 - 06:30 pm
Oh, MARNI, how lucky you are. I love the Piano Concerto No. 27 -- it's one of my favorites. I've wanted to buy a CD of it for some time but, as usual, am paralyzed wondering which recording to get. Who played the piano at your concert? Were they good? (Meanwhile, I'm consoling myself by playing No. 26, which I do own, while I type).
I can't afford to buy too many CDs and I hesitate forever before choosing one, and then stew endlessly about whether another recording would have been better. I don't know why -- I'm not that way about books.
JoanK
July 25, 2006 - 06:41 pm
I loved the elaborate headings describing dawn. Homer must have been turning over in his grave.
It reminds me of one of my sillier mistakes, when I was learning Hebrew. I decided to read books in Hebrew to increase my vocabulary. For some incomprehensible reason, I picked up a copy of "Joseph Andrews" by Fielding, the author who wrote Tom Jones. Since I had never read it in English, I didn't know that he was making fun of flowery style, and opened each chapter with elaborate descriptions like those of Cervantes. The translator, to maintain the style, translated them into flowery archaic Hebrew.
It was much too hard for me but I slogged along. looking up almost very word. But when I proudly trotted out my hardwon new vocabulary to my Israeli friends, they practically rolled on the floor with laughter. It was as if, instead of saying "look at the sun" I said "descry yonder wondrous golden orb of the heavens".
I threw the book away.
marni0308
July 25, 2006 - 09:11 pm
Joan: I'm not going to a concert, but I wish I were!!! I don't remember who is going. Whoever it is, enjoy! I love to collect music. I must admit I've downloaded much of my music collection and now have a good selection on my iPod. I found a $4.95 set of portable iPod speakers that work really well - powerful - so now I can play it out on the deck. We listened to the 1812 Overture out there to celebrate the 4th of July.
I just read something interesting in our local paper. A traveling Shakespearean troupe will be performing A Midsummer Night's Dream in one of our town parks the first Sat. in August at 5:00 p.m. It's a bring your own picnic and chairs type of thing. I've never seen Shakespeare performed that way before. Should be interesting.
I thought Quiteria hesitated before marrying Basilio, too. But imagine facing the situation - marrying a man who was expected to die any moment while at your wedding ceremony to another man. Who wouldn't hesitate?! On the other hand, she did not seem at all happy when she walked in for the marriage ceremony to Comacho. She did not appear to be the happy bride. I got the feeling from that that she loved Basilio and was not being allowed to marry the man of her dreams. Well, she certainly has a lot to think about now!
hats
July 26, 2006 - 12:35 am
At first, I didn't think Quiteria seemed like a happy bride either. I think she truly loved Basilio and not Camacho. Without force, she gave her love to Basilio twice.
"The bride showed no signs of regretting the trick; rather, when she heard someone say that the wedding, because it had been deceitful,...she confirmed it again;..."
I find Camacho's attitude odd. If he really loved Quiteria deeply, how could he so quickly accept her rejection? "...in an instant he erased her from his memory..."
Sancho does break the tension at the wedding. Sancho almost seems, to me, like a clever diplomat. I want to say referee. Many times he calms sticky situations. I had to laugh at this statement.
"For someone who's so badly wounded," said Sancho Panza, "this young man certainly talks a lot; they should make him stop his courting and pay attention to his soul, which in my opinion is more on his tongue than between his teeth."
JoanP and Deems, thank you for the link to Pyramus and Thisbe. I have never seen a play of Shakespeare's acted out on stage. My sister did have his plays on records years ago. The plays were on thirty-threes.
hats
July 26, 2006 - 12:44 am
Sancho Panza loves good food too. At times, while writing this book, did Cervantes laugh under his breath at the actions of some characters?
By the way, Pyramus and Thisbe is such a sad love story. I felt like crying. I think Quiteria and Basilio shared their love through a wall as young people. My memory is that short. Maybe I am wrong. Did I make that thought up?
All of you know more about Shakespeare than I do. I did think of Romeo and Juliet while reading Pyramus and Thisbe. All of you have made me want to get easy translations and read all of Shakespeare's plays. Maybe we could have a Shakespeare corner for beginners. Well, this is another lifetime goal.
judywolfs
July 26, 2006 - 07:49 am
Like Deems, I also don’t particularly take to Shakespeare's comedies with all the disguises and characters and plot twists to keep track of. Maybe that’s why I’m not too fond of the comedy portions in Don Quixote. A bit too blatant for my taste maybe.
Quiteria’s hesitation in going over to the mortally wounded Basilio seemed to me due to the shock at seeing the love of her life about to die. And after it was shown that his death scene was a trick, of course she had no regrets about marrying him; because they had chosen each other from childhood, hadn’t they? The only reason she was marrying Camacho was to obey her parents. And Camacho more or less assumed that even if he had married Quiteria, she would still always love Basilio. What kind of blissful marriage would that have been under those circumstances?
~JudyS
Joan Pearson
July 26, 2006 - 09:17 am
Good morning...yes!!! It's still morning! A lot going on here today. I do want to share some of the highlights of last evening's performance. IT WAS DELIGHTFUL! Not at all what I expected.
First, let me say I was in a very good mood to start out with. A great table in a little restaurant next door to the theatre - specializing in Spanish tapas. I have to ask this, Amparo - are tapas popular in Spain? We must plan on one evening at Jaleo when you come in October. They change the menu frequently - last night featured an apple/manchego cheese salad. At first I was disappointed because it looked like strips of Julienne apples...but it turned out to be strips of apple AND strips of julienned Manchego cheese. So that was fun to discover. You've all got to come in October - if just for the cheese!!!
I sound like Sancho, dwelling on the feast. Now for the surprising rendition of Shakespeare's "Love's Labor's Lost." You might be aware that this is a big year, internationally for Shakespeare. Not sure why this year - but Shakespeare plays are being featured all over the world and there will be a huge showing, (I don't think it's a competition, can't see how it would be a fair competition) of all the plays in the canon - in August. The Shakespeare Theater will be sending its cast to perform this performance of Love's Labor's Lost that I saw last night. I don't know what the Brits will think of it, but the audience last night loved it. So did I.
Judy....I've figured out why I don't enjoy Shakespeare's comedies as much as the histories and tragedies - my sense of humor doesn't match up with the Elizabethan love for word play and slapstick. It's the dependance on the play on words that is the biggest problem...just can't keep up - and so depend on the action - which is the slapstick. I usually read - and read closely each comedy before attending a performance. This does help, but still, there is so much of it.
Love's Labor's Lost is light on plot, light on action and extremely heavy on word play. I couldn't imagine how the audience (sold out performance, many standees too) was going to sit through nearly three hours of this. If they edited down the dialogue (horrors, but they do do this these days) there wasn't enough action left to fill the time. I don't know what I expected, but was very curious. Here's what they did with it...and as I say, I don't know what the Brits will think of it when the production travels to England.
They set the scene in an ashram in India (instead of in Navarre as Shakespeare had it) in the sixties...in the 1960's - in the age of Aquarius. The set, the costumes...and oh yes, the rock ballads! The King of Navarre was a mystic, the three young nobles who came to study with him were three rock stars.
You are astonished! You would be horrified? You like conventional Shakespeare, staged as he would have it. Well, me too. But as I say, I saw all sorts of problems with the production before I went into the theatre and come out happy and satisfied. It was magical! Nothing cut...the dialogue true and clear...much of it delivered to music - electric guitars, tambourines. Most importantly, Shakespeare's message came through loud and clear - the three young rock stars came to a new understanding of the meaning of love and committment.
Hats, this would have been a shocking, but perhaps a really good introduction to Shakespeare. A great example of how his work is as true today as it was back in his time...and in Cervantes'time too.
Now back to Cervantes on Love - Phyll...I don't see Quiteria committed to her love for Basilio - to the extent that she would be willing to give up everything to marry him. Marrying a shepherd boy will be quite a comedown for her. Forget about Comacho's money, but Daddy provided for her nicely too. She'll have plenty of sheep though, plenty of wool. Can she knit? Can she purl?
This reminds me of the sweater you helped me with several months back. Remember how I slaved over it, trying to follow those directions from Ireland - written in Greek? Well, they might as well have been in Greek, but you and Bubble cheered me on. Well, I want you to know that I finished the second one...with no trouble at all. This one is for #1 son...his birthday is in December.
hats
July 26, 2006 - 09:20 am
JoanP, the sweater is beautiful. All of those lovely stitches. Just beautiful.
Joan Pearson
July 26, 2006 - 09:52 am
Well, thank you, Hats - and Phyll too. She'll tell you how I almost gave up on the first one. The interesting thing about the Irish fisherman sweaters...each family had its own pattern. When a fisherman died, and many did, the way they identified him was to check the pattern on his sweater to notify his family. I got this pattern in Ireland - it is my Irish grandmother's family pattern. My goal is to make one for each of my sons. So I have two more sweaters to go. My daughter in law suggested I knit them for the five grandchildren too - but they are so little, they'd outgrow them before I finished knitting them!
What did you learn about Don Quixote from this episode? Hasn't he really changed? Sancho seems to have gained respect for him - respect for his mind, his wisdom. You could say the same about Quixote's regard for Sancho too, couldn't you? There isn't the talk about the Don's madness as we saw earlier. It will be interesting to see if this holds true in the upcoming chapters.
It will be interesting too, to see whether Cervantes' writing style will continue to flourish too. JoanK - I'm still smiling at your efforts to translate "Joseph Andrews"! Poor thing! Did you ever read it in English after that? Again, maybe Cervantes was just trying to match the nature of the underpinnings of Quiteria and Basilio's story - the old fable of Pyramus and Thisbe with his flourishes. We'll have to watch for that.
So. We see a saner Don Quixote, a defender of true love...who believes that every girl should marry the man of her dreams. Or does he? I'm not sure.
Marni - you think Quiteria is happy now - well, at least happier for the time being. Hats sees her "giving her love to Basilio twice." Judy sees her hesitate at first - and then express belief when the decision was made for her. Phyll sees much more hesitation...is she weighing her options? (Can you remember the night before your own wedding? Were you absolutely sure you were taking the right step? hahaha, you don't have to answer that!)
What is Cervantes saying with this triangle? There's a bit more of the post wedding celebration in the next chapter. Among other things he does repeat in Chapter 22 - "marriage between two lovers is the best of all possible endings."
Don Quixote has some other interesting comments on marriage too...notice that he begins by saying that he gives out marital advice as a man who has never married, as a man who has no intention of marrying. Huh? Doesn't he want to marry Dulcinea? Has he given up on that? I'm interested to hear what you think of this...and about the other advice he gives to Basilio's two young cousins.
judywolfs
July 26, 2006 - 11:50 am
Joan, you wondered if DQ has given up on marrying Dulcinea. I somehow thought that courtly love meant a chaste knight adoring his lady from afar, never even considering the idea of marriage. It never occurred to me that our Don would think of marrying Dulcinea. Oh boy, am I way off base on that?
~JudyS
Deems
July 26, 2006 - 12:22 pm
Judy--I don't think Don Quixote intends to marry Dulcinea, for a couple of reasons. 1) I don't think he's as far gone as he seems to be when it comes to believing in the reality of Dulcinea the most beautiful woman in the world. She exists in his mind. 2) He certainly isn't thinking of marrying the peasant girl that he based Dulcinea on. 3) The whole courtly love thing which I agree with you would forbid his marrying her.
There was that place back in Part 1 when Sancho (I think) reminds DQ about how he will marry Dulcinea as a part of the plan to get him home, but I didn't take it seriously.
Joan P--OK, you have to tell me what Spanish tapas is/are. This is the second time you have mentioned tapas and I finally had some at a restaurant in W.VA., thinking of you all the time, but it was an horsdeuvre, not a main course. Chopped up olives and garlic and things served with bread. The olives were Greek. You have to educate me on tapas since this Saturday is the last Saturday I'll be going to W.VA to see a play and I might at last order the real thing. I caught up on the manchego cheese and I'm still behind. Alas.
Good to hear that the play was interesting. Since I remember the 60s well, including the age of Aquarius, I might enjoy it. Anyway, happy to hear you had a good time.
Where is Amparo? She has been checking in every night and it seems she has been absent for two. Of course she is allowed to go on vacation or something, but she needs to get a note, doesn't she?
Hats--I think that Basilio and Quintaria lived right next door to each other with a wall that was shared between the two houses (must have been a common building style in Cervantes' day since Sancho and Tome had the same situation). Whether or not they passed notes, I can't remember. But it's clear that Cervantes wants us to think of Pyramus and Thisbe. This time the lovers get a happy ending.
I thought that Quintaria was in on the scheme or that she at least knew that Basilio would do something to claim her. Nothing in the text; I just thought she knew.
Joan P--That is a PERFECTly beautiful sweater!! Having knitted a few sweaters in my day and having even made things with a FEW cables, I am IMPRESSED. It looks like it belongs in a shop in Ireland. Yes, the children are too little. They grow too fast. Besides I eat at an Irish restaurant on the way to Gettysburg where they sell little cable sweaters for kids. If you factored in your time, I think you might want to buy just one that would fit your g'daughter and then get handed down to the boys. Anyway, congratulations on the work. It is lovely.
Phyll Hi, forgot to say hello to you and your post is on another page and I'm late.
Maryal
hats
July 26, 2006 - 03:20 pm
I hope Amparo is well. I miss her. In the last chapters, I really became involved with the art of fencing. I bet that's a pretty dangerous sport.
Joan Pearson
July 26, 2006 - 03:49 pm
Wait? No cubs? Don't you remember the little cubs? Were they lions? Yes, I think they were. Lions are playing quite a role in this story. Let me find the passage, Judy - it was somewhere at the end of Volume I as our Don was being carted off in captivity - here it is - in Chapter 46 - "Don Quixote was comforted by the prophecy...that he was to be united in holy, lawful wedlock with his beloved Dulcinea del Toboso, from whose happy womb there would come cubs - that is, his sons - who would lead to La Mancha's eternal glory, and believing this devoutly and contentedly, he sighed deeply..."
As they practiced it then, fencing was dangerous, Hats. A duel to the death with bare blades. My brother in law fenced in college and now as a "Senior" he does it for fun - and fitness. There's something on the tip for protection - and no blade. I'll have to ask him exactly what they do now. I also think there is something electronic that records "hits". But you're right, fencing then was more than a sport...and was dangerous!
Maryal, yes tapas are hors d'oeuvres, not main courses. Each party orders two or more tapas and then you pass them around and share. Jaleo serves a little dish of mixed olives, pickles, onions, hot peppers to start...gratis. Plus baskets of bread...bottomless baskets of bread to mop up the different sauces that come with the tapas. Last night we had the apple/manchego cheese salad, an bowl of gambas (shrimp) in yummy garlic sauce...great for mopping with the bread, the garlic mashed potatoes with braised oxtail and what else...oh, the catalan flatbread - among other things, it comes with anchovies, a tomato sauce and grated manchego cheese. Though it is about 8 inches long, enough for two to split, I just have to have a whole one for myself next time!
I'm sure Amparo will be along soon. I'm looking forward to hearing about Spanish tapas...in Spain.
Read on, Maryal - to see if Quiteria was/was not involved in the deceit. To me, it makes a big difference if they were both scheming. That would be quite an act if she was pretending to be stunned, if she was pretending to take her time before giving her final answer.>>>
hats
July 26, 2006 - 04:30 pm
JoanP, that's very interesting about your brother fencing. I am glad there is a tip on the blade. I bet he is very fit. I would rather see two men fence than see men box. I hate boxing, too bloody.
I had one more question. In our second part, chapter xviii, the word "gloss" and "glossing" is used with verses. What does that mean?
"...I'll recite my gloss, for which I dont expect any prize at all; I've written it only to exercise my wits."
"...nobody ought to tire of glossing verses, and the reason, he said, was that the gloss never could approach the text..."
I almost remember the cubs. I want to reread it. I just can't find it in my chapter. I am going to look for it again. It's hard for my memory to rewind.
marni0308
July 26, 2006 - 05:35 pm
I was totally agreeing with judywolfs' idea about a chaste relationship between the Don and Dulcinea - no marriage - until I saw JoanP's quote above. I totally forgot that. But I definitely see the Don as a bachelor dreaming dreams of a beautiful love that exists only in his imagination.
I listened to Judy Collins sing "Barbara Allen" on my way home today and the lovely old Scottish ballad reminded me of Pyramus and Thisbe and the love stories in Don Quixote. Here are the words:
"In Scarlet town where I was born
There was a fair maid dwelling
And every youth cried well away
For her name was Barbara Allen
Twas in the merry month of May
The green buds were a swelling
Sweet William on his deathbed lay
For the love of Barbara Allen
He sent a servant unto her
To the place she was dwelling
Saying you must come to his deathbed now
If your name be Barbara Allen
Slowly slowly she got up
Slowly slowly she came nigh him
And the only words to him she said
Young man I think you're dying
As she was walking oer the fields
She heard the death bell knelling
And every stroke it seemed to say
Hardhearted Barbara Allen
Oh mother mother make my bed
Make it long and make it narrow
Sweet William died for me today
I'll die for him tomorrow
They buried her in the old churchyard
They buried him in the choir
And from his grave grew a red red rose
From her grave a green briar
They grew and grew to the steeple top
Till they could grow no higher
And there they twined in a true love's knot
Red rose around green briar"
JoanP: The sweater is very beautiful. It looks so difficult!
1amparo
July 26, 2006 - 08:55 pm
Thanks you for all your concern everyone. I do keep quiet unless there is a "lost in translation" or I am asked to help. and also I have been busy.
Tapas is/are indeed small bites of food taken before a meal and must be accompanied by some nice wine, though young, cool, people are now drinking beer with tapas (water will do too).
Tapas -history & recepies Be back soon,
Cheers.
Amparo
1amparo
July 26, 2006 - 10:35 pm
RECIPES sounds better than "recepies"... me thinks!
Yes, JoanP, that jumper is beautiful!!! It does not say 'males only' hence females could wear it just as well; I would certainly "pinch" it!
Amparo
hats
July 27, 2006 - 01:40 am
Hi Amparo, glad you are back and with a good site too.
Marni, I enjoyed the poem very much. It is so beautiful. Thank you for sharing it.
hats
July 27, 2006 - 02:52 am
I don't think love is more important than money to Don Q. I believe Don Q knows that for love to survive peaceably, the couple must have money to sustain their needs. Basilio needs to start making a good income to make his wife, Quiteria, a happy wife.
JoanK
July 27, 2006 - 04:20 am
Maryal: there is a branch of Jaleo in Bethesda: the restaurant where JoanP had tapas. I've never been there, but PatH eats there all the time: she can tell you where it is.
I would love to eat tapas with you all in October, but it's difficult for me and PatH to get to Virginia. Do you think we could meet in Bethesda?
Phyll
July 27, 2006 - 06:54 am
Maryal, You remind me of the White Rabbit in Alice. "I'm late! I'm late! No time to say Hello! Goodbye! I'm late! I'm late! I'm late!"
JoanP, You and I are Romantics with edges of Cynicism, I think. Perhaps Quiteria was in shock to see Basilio mortally wounded and that caused her hesitation but somehow I can't help but think that somewhere in the back of her mind the thought dwelled that should he live, she would spend the rest of her life as a sheepherder's wife! That probably would make any spoiled and privileged young girl hesitate, I think. How far is romantic love supposed to stretch?
(
Joan, the sweater is just perfect! I'm amazed that you whipped it up so quickly, particularly with everything else you seem to be involved in. Great job! I'm glad it went much more smoothly for you this time. I chuckled over the Irish instructions written in Greek.)
As far as Don Q. marryig Dulcinea....How could he?! She is the Unreachable Star! The Quest! The Dream! To actually do something so practical as to marry her is unthinkable! He would no longer have a purpose in life to strive after.
Joan Pearson
July 27, 2006 - 08:30 am
Amparo - thank you so much for the link to the history of Tapas - I see they've been around since Medieval times! They are consumed with wine. Sancho and Don Quixote were probably munching on them when visiting inns, do you suppose?
- Do Spaniards drink Sangria with their tapas as we do here? Tapas have become quite the rage in the States...take the place of dinner when you order a number of them.
JoanK - there is also a branch of Jaleo in Arlington in Virginia - but it's in Crystal City out by the airport - two Metro train lines from the hotel - and a good hike from the Metro stop. Since we are hoping a good number will join us for Tapas and a number of out-of-towners will be staying in DC, we are thinking of the main Jaleo restaurant four blocks from the hotel in DC where some are planning to stay - Amparo, included. I'm sure that will be easier than trying to get to the Virginia restaurant by Metro. Is that better, Joan? Changing lines on different levels underground can be daunting for out-of-towners. But you and Pat will try to get to the Conference Hotel in Virginia on Saturday, right?
Marni, Phyll, Hats, we're hoping you are considering coming in October. Traudee, Andy, Hegeso, JoanR, Jan (who else?)? I know some others here are planning to come...Mippy, Maryal, JoanK...This is a big one...a once-every-ten-year gathering!
Joan Pearson
July 27, 2006 - 08:33 am
An interesting question about the meaning of "gloss", Hats. It seems to have a number of different meanings, depending on the period in history. In Medievel times, it meant a translation, usually from the Latin. But I sense that in Don Quixote, in the examples you cite, "gloss" means an interpretation of verse. I guess that's a translation, isn't it?
Did you ever find those lion cubs? The very last page of Chapter 46 in Volume I?
Granted Don Q. was in a weakened state at the time, he was being carted home for rust. Phyll, sadly it seems that Don Q. agrees with you, (not as much of a romantic as we thought at first?) He doesn't believe he will win his Dulcinea when he says he has no plan to marry, but offers his advice anyway.
Hats - For someone who believes in love, does, he believe it is better to choose a wife who has a good reputation, rather than one who is beautiful to fall in love with? Aren't most of the women in this tale beautiful? Who chooses the not so lovely? Can one be both virtuous AND lovely. He's saying nothing about love here as he dispenses his less-than-romantic advice...
Marni, amazing "Barbara Allen" and the sad fable of Thisbe and Pyramus. I'll exchange song lyrics with you today...Have you ever heard Jimmy Soul sing this? - it is so funny, but maybe you have to hear it to laugh...If You Wanna Be Happy
If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife
So for my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you
If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife
So for my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you.
So. Are we seeing a more serious, down-to-earth Don Quixote now? Do you like him? Or did you like the madcap, sky-is-the-limit romantic? Well keep reading.
I want to hear whether you believe the episode in Montesinos' Cave is a all a dream, or is Don Quixote making it all up? Does he believe it himself? Amparo - is there such a place as Montesinos' Cave - or the rivers?
hats
July 27, 2006 - 08:55 am
JoanP, thank you for the information on "gloss." That word really threw me for a loop. Now I have found the "cubs." I think we discussed the translation. Grossman calls the "cubs" "pups."
"...he was being promised a union in holy and sanctified matrimony with his beloved Dulcinea.....whose happy womb would give birth to pups, which is to say his sons..."
I know all of you will have a wonderful time in October. I mentioned the fun to my husband. He nodded his head and said maybe in a low voice. You know men. They have to think longer than women.
hats
July 27, 2006 - 09:00 am
I also wonder whether there is a real Cave by that name. I thought it interesting that the ancient carried a "rosary." I remember you, JoanP, giving us a lot of information about the rosary earlier in the story. I am going back to try and find the information. This rosary seems really different, maybe more ornate.
"the smaller beads larger than medium-sized walnuts, and the larger ones the size of medium-sized ostrich eggs...." Aren't those awfully large beads?
Joan Pearson
July 27, 2006 - 09:22 am
Yes, yes Hats! That's what I noticed too! It's ridiculously large for a rosary. I think this has to be a dream! Why is he even wearing a rosary? Is he a cleric, a friar? Franciscans wear oversized rosaries...not this big however! A very interesting story here. Why would Durandarte ask Montesinos to cut out his heart (his broken heart?) to take to Lady Belerma? I'm thinking this tale/ballad must have been well-known to Cervantes' readers? And how does it fit our story? I hope it isn't a sign of things to come...
hats
July 27, 2006 - 09:27 am
This is so much fun.
Deems
July 27, 2006 - 12:24 pm
I for one love the dream--it has to be a dream--that Don Quixote has on the ledge during his descent into the Cave of Montesinos. I love the descriptions and the enchantment. I love the cutting out the heart of the knight Durandarte, preserving it (or at least drying it up with salt so it won't smell and be offensive) and taking it to his love, the incredibly beautiful (and as it turns out also enchanted) lady Belerma. It doesn't get any more romantic than that, folks.
And Merlin, most famous of all enchanters, he of King Arthur fame, Merlin his very own self is the Enchanter.
And best of all, DQ even sees those three peasant girls the ones Sancho made up in the enchanted place. And Dulcinea sends him greetings through one of the girls-----and asks for a loan!!!!
There DQ spends what he knows is three days while those above ground measure it to be a little over an hour. Enchantment affects time as well as appearance.
Amparo--Good to know that you are there and thank you for the link.
Hats--This is fun, isn't it? Cubs and pups and what have you notwithstanding, our knight is only mad north-by-northwest. When he is "himself," he knows he is not married and won't be.
Joan K--Thank you. My very own tapas restaurant right here in Bethesda. I'll look it up. I should have figured we'd have one; there are too many restaurants in Bethesda!
Phyll--We agree about marriage and DQ. As you point out, the unattainable must remain unattainable. Of course he can't marry Dulcinea, especially since she does not exist. We know that he wouldn't want to marry the bucksome peasant girl upon whom he built his imaginary lady. White Rabbit indeed! Humpppf!
Maryal
Mippy
July 27, 2006 - 12:42 pm
Just have a minute here, but there are several restaurants around in towns in New England which bill themselves as "tapas" restaurants.
There they serve all "small dishes" which means your whole meal is lots of little dishes, including meat and fish dishes.
My husband and I tried one and did not like it at all. He went home hungry although we spent more than usual.
This is of course nothing to do with
real tapas.
I'm behind in reading, of course.
hats
July 27, 2006 - 02:04 pm
The daughters of the lady in waiting cried and cried. Merlin turned their tears to lakes or rivers. Some other people became rivers. Deems, it is like a romantic fairy tale. Of course, I would have died seeing Durandarte's heart cut out. Oh my goodness!! Is salt really useful to destroy bad odors? I know salt is a preservative.
Then, Don Q goes through a time warp. Sancho says Don Q has only been in this transparent cave for an hour or so while Don Q translates the time as days.
I could not believe Dulcinea the Pretender had the nerve to ask for a loan. The nerve!!
This is all too good. I have cooked my meal. Now I am preparing for a visit of my grandbaby over the weekend. I am going to bed with Don Q under my pillow.
If I have read correctly, Durandarte moans and groans and speaks from the sepulcher. Maybe this is a Gothic fairy tale. It is spookily romantic.
hats
July 27, 2006 - 02:07 pm
Well, I need to read the schedule. Am I behind or on time? I don't know now. I bet Amparo is having fun knowing we are enjoying Don Quixote.
judywolfs
July 27, 2006 - 05:17 pm
Hats, one of my nephews won awards for fencing when he was in college - and he told me that fencing isn’t any more dangerous than any other sport - that the fencing teams are well trained not to make stupid mistakes and get hurt. My two sons said that same thing about their sports - karate and football - but I worried anyway. And I agree about boxing, senseless violence.
My gosh, Joan - what an eye opener! I completely missed that passage about the Don getting married! What an eye opener. I was totally under the impression that the knights would choose absolutely unattainable ladies, so they could go around swooning and pining after them. Or maybe Don Quixote forgot for a moment to be quite as courtly as he should be.
A tapas restaurant sound like my cup of tea exactly, Ampero. I would love all those interesting little dishes and appetizers and bread with sauces. I think I’d be inclined to sip wine with them instead of beer or water.
Hey Marni - those lyrics to Barbara Allen brought back some sweet memories of listening to Joan Baez sing it when I was a teenager. Her lyrics were slightly different, but what a clear, beautiful, strong voice.
The whole cave episode drove me crazy! How completely weird. At least DQ caught a glimpse of Lady Guinevere, if I remember correctly. The very notion of the loan to Lady Dulcinea is just too looney tunes.
~JudyS
1amparo
July 27, 2006 - 07:10 pm
Spain’s terrain is chock-a-block from plains of la Mancha to caves and mountains. And yes, there is one cave called Montesinos near Ossa de Montiel. Here is a short cut to it:
Cueva de Montesinos Tapas: All Spanish bars have a long counter full with tapas which their kitchen keep on replenishing as they go down. All patrons have to do is go to the counter and pick and choose. The bread is crusty and nice.
Sangria is drank in summer. The typical sangria is made with red wine, and either lemonade or soda water and fresh diced fruit such as peaches, bananas, apples, pears, grapes apricots; anything goes! Served very chilled.
"Jaleo Topas and Bar": (Bethesda Location) 7271 Woodmont Ave. Bethesda, Md ;20814 301-913-0003 The only tapas I will
NOT eat away from Valencia is “paella” as it is our very own Valencian dish as I am very fussy about it.
Cubs and not pups. As it is symbolic of DQ strong, brave, fearless; like a lion, therefore his offspring would be: CUBS!!
Hats, I am very glad you all seem to like Cervantes’s DQ. In its original Spanish and knowing the meaning of Sancho’s lingo the book is, so far, without equal. The world testifies to that.
Amparo
hats
July 28, 2006 - 01:39 am
Amparo, the world does agree with what you write. I have been rereading the reviews in the front and back of my book.
This review is in the back of Grossman's translation of Don Quixote. It is written by CARLOS FUENTES.
"Don Quixote is the first modern novel, perhaps the most eternal novel ever written and certainly the fountainhead of European and American fiction: here we have Gogol and Dostoevsky, Dickens and Nabokov, Borges and Bellow, Sterne and Diderot in their genetic nakedness, once more taking to the road with the gentleman and the squire, believing the world is what we read and discovering that the world reads us."
I can't imagine what it is like to read Don Quixote in Spanish. I bet it just adds to the beauty and wonder of the book.
Judy, I see fencing as a graceful dance like ballet.
Joan Pearson
July 28, 2006 - 06:57 am
Good morning, Dreamers!
I've been thinking of our knight's DREAM in the Cave... thinking of dreams too. Do you ever have dreams that are so real, that when you wake up you have a hard time believing that it was all just a dream? Do you wake up in an emotional state...tears, the works, as if what you just "experienced" was real? Do you dream in technicolor? Are there lots of quirky details that you can later figure out what daytime event caused them to resurface in your dream?
All of this seems to have happened to our poor Don.
I don't think it means he is "mad" - except that he really can't distinguish between the dream and reality. Plus we need to keep in mind that the DEVIL was a very real presence at this time...capable of casting spells, "enchantments." It wasn't difficult to ascribe what he "saw" in the cave to the Devil's work.
Maryal, Judy, Hats - I wasn't ready for the loan to Dulcinea either!!! Cervantes got our attention with that "undreamlike" part. Don't you expect he will build on this in future chapters?
The inspiration for the story of Durandarte and Belerma was a well-known ballad at the time. Of course our Don Quixote would have been interested in it - must have drawn parallels between Belerma and his Dulcinea. I was so curious to learn the relationship between Durandarte and Belerma - were they lovers, or had she scorned his attention? I thought you might be interested in reading the ballad for yourself.
DURANDARTE AND BELERMA
Sad and fearful is the story
Of the Roncevalles fight;
On those fatal plains of glory
Perished many a gallant Knight.
There fell Durandarte; Never
Verse a nobler Chieftain named:
He, before his lips for ever
Closed in silence thus exclaimed.
'Oh! Belerma! Oh! my dear-one!
For my pain and pleasure born!
Seven long years I served thee, fair-one,
Seven long years my fee was scorn:
'And when now thy heart replying
To my wishes, burns like mine,
Cruel Fate my bliss denying
Bids me every hope resign.
'Ah! Though young I fall, believe me,
Death would never claim a sigh;
'Tis to lose thee, 'tis to leave thee,
Makes me think it hard to die!
'Oh! my Cousin Montesinos,
By that friendship firm and dear
Which from Youth has lived between us,
Now my last petition hear!
'When my Soul these limbs forsaking
Eager seeks a purer air,
From my breast the cold heart taking,
Give it to Belerma's care.
Say, I of my lands Possessor
Named her with my dying breath:
Say, my lips I op'd to bless her,
Ere they closed for aye in death:
'Twice a week too how sincerely
I adored her, Cousin, say;
Twice a week for one who dearly
Loved her, Cousin, bid her pray.
'Montesinos, now the hour
Marked by fate is near at hand:
Lo! my arm has lost its power!
Lo! I drop my trusty brand!
'Eyes, which forth beheld me going,
Homewards ne'er shall see me hie!
Cousin, stop those tears o'er-flowing,
Let me on thy bosom die!
'Thy kind hand my eyelids closing,
Yet one favour I implore:
Pray Thou for my Soul's reposing,
When my heart shall throb no more;
'So shall Jesus, still attending
Gracious to a Christian's vow,
Pleased accept my Ghost ascending,
And a seat in heaven allow.'
Thus spoke gallant Durandarte;
Soon his brave heart broke in twain.
Greatly joyed the Moorish party,
That the gallant Knight was slain.
Bitter weeping Montesinos
Took from him his helm and glaive;
Bitter weeping Montesinos
Dug his gallant Cousin's grave.
To perform his promise made, He
Cut the heart from out the breast,
That Belerma, wretched Lady!
Might receive the last bequest.
Sad was Montesinos' heart, He
Felt distress his bosom rend.
'Oh! my Cousin Durandarte,
Woe is me to view thy end!
'Sweet in manners, fair in favour,
Mild in temper, fierce in fight,
Warrior, nobler, gentler, braver,
Never shall behold the light!
'Cousin, Lo! my tears bedew thee!
How shall I thy loss survive!
Durandarte, He who slew thee,
Wherefore left He me alive!'
hats
July 28, 2006 - 07:25 am
Oh yes! JoanP, thank you.
Joan Pearson
July 28, 2006 - 07:38 am
Hats, you enjoy the grandbaby! I'm going to see my two little guys this afternoon too. One will be napping - so I'll be able to give undivided attention to one of them, the older one (who craves undivided attention!)
I think you are right on schedule, Hats...we'll spend the next four days at the inn...the inn is like a theatre, isn't it? The next four chapters deal with a PROPHETIC MONKEY. You'll get a kick out of this, I'm sure. (You can catch up with us in the next four days, Mippy. If not, just jump in now to chapter 24.)
Before we move on, I've got a question for you all - two questions, actually. They may be related: -
"apocryphal - In the introductory lines to Chapters 22 Raffel translates the events in the cave as "distinctly apocryphal." Does your translator use this word? If so, what does it mean to you? Does it mean "fictitious" or does it mean "implausible"? Amparo, will you check the Spanish for us, please? And thank you for looking up "cubs/pups" - for once Raffel was more accurate in describing these baby lions! Jaleo does serve paella, but we won't make you eat it! hahaha...
Basilio's cousin who is travelling with our Don Q. is described as a Humanist scholar. I am curious to know how you understand this? I looked up the term -
and found this:The Renaissance of the 15th to 16th centuries has often been regarded as marking a radical change in patterns of thought - from religion to secularism, communalism to individualism, and superstition to science. In particular, many historians have seen this a time when medieval scholasticism gave way to humanism.
Scholastic philosophy was written by and for the clergy who dominated European universities.
The humanists studied the writings of ancient Rome - especially of Cicero and of Tacitus - as great models of eloquence...
Yet Renaissance readers of classical texts soon began to notice how corrupted these had become over the centuries, through repeated errors of copying. Scholars became interested in finding the various copies of different texts and collating different versions.
Interest spread to writings of classical Greece. Aristotle's works were known only from Latin translation - only in the fifteenth century did scholars begin to study the original Greek.
Plato, too, aroused increasing interest. Humanism - 17th century
My question then, once we get the meaning of "apocryphal" - Can you connect the apocryphal story of what happened in Montesinos Cave with what the Humanists were discovering in their approach to Church teachings - or am I thinking about this way too hard? I'm just sensing a connection here between APOCRYPHAL and HUMANISM. I'm thinking of the Biblical "Apocrypha" this morning. - What do YOU think this young Humanist scholar is studying?
Chapter 24 opens with our pseudo author, Sidi Benengeli suggesting there was a deathbed confession in which Don Quixote made up the whole story because it matched others he had read in his books. I don't believe that for one minute, do you?
Deems
July 28, 2006 - 08:30 am
Thank you, Joan P for the ballad. We seem to have the same facts in the poem as in Cervantes' novel so he was sticking close.
Did she love him in return or did she scorn him?
Yes and yes. If you go to the 3rd and 4th stanza, you see the change. For seven years Belerma scorned him, then in the 4th stanza her heart burns with love just as his did. It's too late though because right away he gets killed in battle.
The famous story about hearts and death in real life, at least the one I know, is of what happened to Percy Bysshe Shelley's heart after he died.
Shelley was living in Italy at the time with his wife, Mary Shelley (Frankenstein). He was sailing with two others in a 24 foot boat when a sudden summer storm came up. All three men were lost, their bodies washed ashore ten days later.
Shelley was cremated on the beach. Trelawny, a friend, snatched the unconsumed heart and gave it to Hunt, another friend. There was a quarrel over the heart, and Hunt finally gave it to Mary Shelley. It was discovered, after her death, wrapped in silk between the pages of her husband's long poem Adonais.
Grisly as this story may seem today, we need to remember that before the invention of photography, the living frequently took parts of the body (usually hair) as a memento to remember their loved one.
Shelley died at 29, one month short of his 30th birthday, in 1822.
Maryal
Deems
July 28, 2006 - 08:36 am
Yikes, I just get my head straight with the ballad and the memory of Shelley's heart and the keeping of hearts as mementos and Joan P is here with more questions.
I can do apocryphal in a trice--as a general adjective, it means of doubtful authenticity-- and by extension, fictitious.
But HUMANISM--goodness, that one will take some more words. And I'll leave it for another.
hats
July 28, 2006 - 12:50 pm
Maryal, the story about Shelley's death took my breath away for a moment. Wow! I don't know what to say accept thank you for sharing that moment of love. I won't forget it.
Now I must find "Adonais" and read it.
1amparo
July 28, 2006 - 06:02 pm
Yes JoanP, Cervantes wrote:
"...hace que se tenga esta aventura por apócrifa."
Which in Spanish means: of doubtful authenticity-- and fictitious.
Full marks Deems!!!!
Amparo
10.35 am. Saturday 29 July.
Deems
July 28, 2006 - 06:25 pm
Thanks,
Amparo, first time today I have gotten "full marks" which sounds like a very good grade. Say A+
Hats--I've been trying to figure out how to make those gold stars that you saw in another discussion. I can't find the right part of SeniorNet (which to me has an incredibly difficult organizational scheme when one wanders away from the familiar). I've looked at the "emoticons" page and the star isn't there.
Deems
July 28, 2006 - 08:39 pm
Gold asterisks, made large--
< font size=6 >< font color=gold > * * * * * < /font size > < /font color >
should do it, Hats, except that you have to leave out the spaces in the instructions between the pointed brackets.
* * * * *
1amparo
July 28, 2006 - 09:13 pm
* * * * *
1amparo
July 29, 2006 - 02:51 am
From JoanP post: What do YOU think this young Humanist scholar is studying?
Phylanthropy and sociology???
hats
July 29, 2006 - 06:13 am
*****
hats
July 29, 2006 - 06:15 am
Maryal, I did it after cooking pancakes. My Elijah had fallen back to sleep, one free moment. Thank you.
Joan Pearson
July 29, 2006 - 06:59 am
Good morning and thank you, Amparo! So the young Humanist student was studying Phylantrophy...I assume that's the same as Philanthropy? And Sociology. Are these unusual subjects for study at this time?
I was pleased to see the word that Cervantes used to describe the dream sequence - "apócrifa." He didn't characterize the dream as "fictitious" - the EXTREME of the meaning of the word as Maryal pointed out. To me, "fictitious" means a story that someone made up - knowingly. The person creating the story knows he/she is giving a fictitious account. Did Grossman use the word "aprocryphal"? The books of the Aprocrypha - are they considered "fiction" or rather books that cannot be authenticated? Are there books of the Bible that are "aprocryphal" in nature? The parting of the Red Sea as an example. Can that be authenticated? You wouldn't call it "fictitious" or would you?
In the start of Chapter 24 the translator of the pseudo author, Sidi Berengeli's account tells us that this author has noted in the margins of the dream sequence that he cannot believe that Don Quixote was lying because he was someone who would not tell a lie if you killed him.
He concludes by saying that if this adventure seems apocryphal it is up to us, the readers to make up our own minds.
He acknowledges the allegations that our knight admitted on his deathbed that he made the whole thing up because it matched the stories he had read.
Sancho is beside himself because he knows that Don Quixote believes what he is saying he saw. Does Sancho believe that the evil enchanters have put these things in his mind? Whatever he does believe, it is clear that Don Quixote is still delusional. We can still expect more irrational behavior when knight errantry comes up. I thought he was making such progress in this volume!
So, off to the inn...will he think it's a castle?
I was recently reading an account of Cervantes' life and was interested to read again about the time he spent collecting taxes along these same trails - travelling on a mule, stopping at inns such as these he describes.
Notice that the party had first planned to spend the night at a hermitage but were promised a wondrous story if they met up with that young soldier at the nearby inn. No doubt our Don will contribute to the story when he gets there!
Hats - I KNOW little Elijah will enjoy those pancakes! Give him an extra one from me...and a little hug too.
Deems
July 29, 2006 - 08:03 am
JoanP, I think that the use of "apocryphal" here--as well as its use in that chapter which focuses on the conversation between Sancho and his wife--helps Cervantes to distance himself even more from the material therein contained. It's one more step back from any problems that the text might get him into.
In this case, we have Cervantes claiming to have found another writer's work which has been translated (so it has already passed through two hands) and with material that may have been added by an unknown author at one time or another (this material could be considered apocryphal because it is of unknown authorship and thus does not conform to the limits which seem to have been set by the original author).
The benefit of using the word "apocryphal" to describe the events that Don Quixote says happened in the Cave of Montesino is that it leaves it to the reader to decide whether or not the fantastic material there is really part of the original text of Don Quixote or not. If not, then the reader can chalk it up to an anonymous author who added it.
As for the Apocrypha that is attached to the Bible, it consists of books that were considered to be of doubtful provinence and not as useful for doctrine as the others. The books in question were all books of the Old Testament. Jerome was the early translator who decided to label them Apocrypha: Useful for teaching and thus retained. Protestants later put them in a special section in the middle of the Old and New Testaments and eventually, in many denominations, ceased to publish them. This is a complicated issue, but in the case of the Bible, the word doesn't mean fictitious, but rather of doubtful authorship, not the same thing as "fictitious." But our ordinary adjective apocryphal includes the meaning of "fictitious."
It is important to keep in mind that ALL of Don Quixote is fiction despite the frequent assertion on the part of Cide Hamete--or "our" author who claims to have found the original--that it is the True Adventures of DQ. It's all a fiction; Cervantes knows that it is a fiction, and his use of the word "apocryphal" provides another layer of comedy.
Have I muddied things up or helped?
Maryal
Joan Pearson
July 29, 2006 - 08:08 am
* * * * *
It's difficult for me to remember this is fiction! I'm living it. I feel like Sancho much of the time. Worried and concerned about my friend's mind, both relieved and surprised to see that he doesn't see the inn as a castle!
Joan Pearson
July 29, 2006 - 09:34 pm
Settin' here, waitin' for you and the puppet show to begin...
Do you imagine these puppets will be the hand-held type or marionettes?
1amparo
July 30, 2006 - 12:00 am
JoanP. I think this is what I had in mind with
Philanthropy and Sociology.
"Philanthropy is an ancient word dating back to the Greeks. To the ancient Greeks, philanthropy was an essential ingredient of community life; political participation and contributions to the community were considered to be the highest forms of "the good." Ancient Sociology Amparo
Joan Pearson
July 30, 2006 - 08:30 am
Thank you very much, Amparo! I'm so curious to know what was happening in Spain at this time - especially the Church and Cervantes relationship with the Church during the turbulent times. I've a strong hunch that one of the reasons his novel caused such an uproar was due to his departure from what folks were used to reading, and what was approved by the Church.
Humanism -
developed in Italy and then to the north.
By the time humanism had taken root in the north, the Reformation had begun to gain momentum. As a result, northern humanism is generally identified with Christian humanism, a movement that attempted to apply the scholarly techniques of humanism to the study of religious documents. Christian humanists studied the Bible directly, ignoring medieval interpretations. As their knowledge of languages increased, the humanists also read the biblical texts in the original Greek and Hebrew. Their work in translating and analyzing original sources often uncovered discrepancies among these sources, which led to questions about the Catholic Church’s practices and encouraged efforts for reform.
Renaissance/Humanism
From Cervantes' Bio in the heading we learn two things-
He received some early formal education, in the school of the Spanish humanist, Juan Lopez de Hoyos, who was teaching in Madrid in the 1560s.
In 1569 Cervantes traveled to Italy to serve in the household of an Italian nobleman, and joined the Spanish army a year later.
Cervantes seems to have been walking a fine line during the Inquisition, but in the long run, it seems that his studies in Philanthropy and and application of what he learned of ANCIENT Sociology won him friends in his own community, the Church included. NO matter what one says about his mental state, his Don Quixote was a GOOD man and wanted to do good for others. Do you believe it was really fame he was after?
Joan Pearson
July 30, 2006 - 08:48 am
Even though our knight did not mistake the inn for a castle this time, I think we are in for some fun with the prophesying monkey (who only sees the past and present!) and the puppet show. The puppeteer is a piece of work, isn't he? Clearly a scam artist. - will we learn what's behind that big green swatch of fabric covering his eye and half his face?
Here's some info on this type of traveling puppet show at the time...
Brief History of Puppetry
marni0308
July 30, 2006 - 06:44 pm
JoanP: Thanks for the poem "DURANDARTE AND BELERMA." That was great!
Maryal: Thanks for the info about Shelley. I had heard about the shipwreck but hadn't heard until this very week about the heart. It was a Jeopardy question this week! What a coincidence! And what a strange story! Gosh, he was so young to die.
I've been trying to stay cool and de-humidified this weekend. It is so hot and humid! Ick. I went to the library so I could give my air conditioners a break and I found the book The Widow of the South. I spent all weekend reading it. However, I did not neglect Don Quixote. I've been keeping up with my reading - and still laughing!
Have you noticed all of the green in the book? So many things are colored green. Lots of clothing is green. I wonder if green was a popular color for clothing then or if Cervantes just liked it or does it mean something?
Marni
hats
July 31, 2006 - 12:45 am
Hi Amparo!
Hi Marni, I will stay on the look out for "green." What does it mean? I didn't really notice it until meeting the man in green. I should have been marking the color in my book.
JoanP and Maryal, I am sorry not to have been here. I am getting back on the trail today.
I feel very sad to read the translator's kind mention of the coming death of Don Q. I really care about Don Q. That made me put his age in the back of my mind. I know that the subject or the real event must happen in the story because as time passes the Don is aging.
It is as if the translator knows the future event will not come easy for any of the readers. I feel he is trying to make the coming sad events easier for our hearts and minds to swallow (hats sobbing). That's why, I think, the translator writes "It is considered true that at the time of Don Quixote's passing and death...."Don Q is different now.
hats
July 31, 2006 - 01:08 am
Amparo, Do you have any idea how old Don Q is now?
I think Don Q's mind is on growing older and death. When he meets the man on the road headed for the inn, Don Q says a few words about death.
"you must put out of your mind the adversities that may befall you, for the worst of them is death, and if it is a good death, then dying is the best thing that can happen to you..."
I never thought of separating death into two categories: a good death, a bad death.
hats
July 31, 2006 - 02:03 am
Amparo, are there many puppet shows given in Spain these days?
JoanP, thank you for the Puppetry link. I can't wait to read it. I have always loved puppets. I think of Pinnochio, Punch and Judy. Remember Edgar Bergman and Charlie McCarthy, the puppet?
Don Q had to be out of his mind to hurt anything as helpless and harmless as puppets.
The poor puppet show ended in disaster. I think Don Q is sane one moment and insane the next moment. He becomes too involved with the lovers running from the Moors. When Don Q destroys all the puppets, it's hard to take. Master Pedro is such a kind guy. He does not punch Don Q in the nose. He just wants money to repair or buy new puppets. Putting on puppet shows is the way he makes his living.
Marni, thank you for alerting me to green. I think green means peace. The wealthy hospitable man wore green. Now Master Pedro's patch over his eye and part of his face is green. This must mean these guys are trustworthy and kind, not villains.
hats
July 31, 2006 - 02:11 am
JoanP, I love the puppet link. An "extension of oneself" is something I never thought about as far as puppets. I think a puppet would give a feeling of comfort and security like taking a teddy bear to bed. I would think playing with puppets would make a child feel less awkward.
Until now I have never thought of what a puppet could give psychologically. I have only thought of puppets as toys.
1amparo
July 31, 2006 - 03:28 am
Cervantes told us that DQ was 50 years old in the very first page of volume 1. Let us say that the Don has been travelling... what... one year? So, he is quite young for our times, but on his times...? your guess is as good as mine, Somehow I seem to had read somewhere that on those times; 50 was "old".
I remember seeing puppet shows when I was a child, not in the city though. I would be very surprised if they are still showing puppet shows during "feria" (fairs?) times. Kids now are more interested in computer games, I think.
Amparo
hats
July 31, 2006 - 04:41 am
Amparo, that's true. The youngest children know about computer games. I would like to turn back the clock.
Joan Pearson
July 31, 2006 - 05:50 am
Good morning, Dreamers~
hahaha, did you notice Maestro Pedro's monkey tell Don Q. and Sancho that he'd be able to tell them "next Friday" whether the visions in Montesinos' Cave were real or not? What did you make of the monkey - or Maestro Pedro? Hats, you seem to like him. Don Q. is concerned that he is a dark figure- that he has entered into a "pact with the Devil" because devil's cannot see into the future. Devils and Evil Enchanters seem to be a very real presence in Don Quixote's world, don't they?
I felt right off that the green patch must be some sort of disguise as it covered most of Maestro Pedro's face. I guess I'm looking for Sanson's return at every turn.
I too LOVE the colors - the greens, golds, reds. purples. (Will watch and see if MORE green appears in future pages. Marni) And I love to read what the people eat, the kind of fish they catch, the sort of trees they see ... This is the !6/17th century and these details make Don Quixote's world a more familiar place with every mention.
We'll all keep an eye on Cervantes to see if he prefers the green.
The monkey's role so far seems to have been to cast a shadow over the puppeteer. To me he is a scam artist with the monkey schtik. Won't say more about him until you've read chapter 27 and learn his true identity - (but no, he isn't Sanson! )
Hats - if the puppet is looked on as "an extension of oneself" and the puppeteer is looked on as someone untrustworthy - someone who has entered a pact with the devil...then don't you begin to question the puppets and the role they are playing? Did the puppeteer put on this particular production, knowing in advance the effect it would have on the unstable knight in his audience?
Thanks, Amparo - now will you calculate Cervantes' age for us too? Hats, I remember that Cervantes died before this novel was published, so his death is also imminent. That makes me sad. I wonder if he was aware that his end was near?
Lots to catch up on...read chapter 27! Then let's talk some more about the puppeteer! I really don't want to be a spoiler. I hope I didn't give anything away this morning.
Joan Pearson
July 31, 2006 - 06:08 am
Couldn't resist sharing the Dore illustration of the devastated puppet theater -
Mippy
July 31, 2006 - 07:25 am
Maestro Pedro's monkey is sure a creepy character. I really don't like either of them, so far.
I'll try to read the next section about the puppets later today
as I'm still catching up from having a full house. Family is great, but exhausting!
hats
July 31, 2006 - 07:25 am
I don't want to give a spoiler either. Oh my goodness! As Joan Rivers says, "Let's talk!!!" I can't believe it!
marni0308
July 31, 2006 - 08:02 am
I don't think of Master Pedro as a kind man. I think he's a con man scamming people of their money with his monkey who whispers in his ear. There are always people who fall for that sort of thing - even today.
The puppets to me are marionettes. My sister used to make them. I would not have the patience to operate one marionette, forget about multiple. So Master Pedro (heh, heh) must have a certain talent for this, at any rate. And he certainly excels at entertaining the people in towns he visits.
I read it - chpt 27! Master Pedro certainly pulled the right string in his performance before the Don (yuk, yuk)!
Have you noticed in Part II how easily the Don parts with his money? In Part I he didn't even have any money to part with.
hats
July 31, 2006 - 08:04 am
Marni, yes, I did notice the money. It surprised me when the Don didn't argue about the price to pay Pedro. He and Sancho just pulled the money out and paid it.
marni0308
July 31, 2006 - 08:07 am
Hi, Hats! Yes, the Don has been paying off people lately whenever he causes a ruckus and gets someone angry or wrecks something.
I guess he and Sancho did haggle a little when determining how much to pay the puppet master. Sounds like they reached a bargain agreeable to all.
marni0308
July 31, 2006 - 08:12 am
Hats: I've been thinking about what you said about the Don thinking about death. I wonder if some of that just goes along with being a knight-errant - always exposing one's self to danger to be chivalric. I suppose it would be a goal for a knight to want to die a valient heroic death.
But maybe the Don is thinking about death because he's old. As someone said earlier, maybe that's why Cervantes is writing about death - because he's thinking about it since he is old and sick.
Deems
July 31, 2006 - 08:31 am
I can't comment yet on the action because I have to finish reading Chaps XXVI and XXVII, but am here to make a humble confession.
So far as I know, there are no traumatic events involved, but all my life I have found clowns and puppets creepy in the extreme. Clowns are the worst. I have never seen a clown in my life who made me even think about smiling. I don't like their costumes; I don't like their big bulbous noses, I don't like their makeup.
When I was a kid "Howdy Doody" was still on. We didn't have a TV but my friend Beth did and every day at her house we watched "Howdy Doody." I think it was on at 4:00 pm in Chicago. We were probably a little old for it, but we watched it faithfully. There wasn't much for kids on TV at the time. Claribell was the resident clown on the show. He was mute, but he had a big horn that he honked instead of speaking. Didn;t like himl.
Then there are puppets. The only ones I've ever liked are sock puppets which don't really look at all like the living beings they represent. I don't like marionettes and I don't like eleborate puppets that are put over hands. The only puppets I've ever enjoyed (which puts puppets one step above clowns) are the Muppets. Now those were good puppets, not scarey, wonderful animals and "people" like Bert and Ernie. Those I liked. Oh, and also Sharie someone and her lamb puppet.
But puppets in a puppet theater--un uh. No way. Creepy, creepy, creepy, but not as creepy as CLOWNS.
OK, having released all my angst, I will return to DQ, finish Chaps XXVI and XXVII, and return later in the day. After the dentist appointment.
Maryal
hats
July 31, 2006 - 08:33 am
Marni, that's what I am thinking too. The Don has reached another stage in life. He knows his life will change due to an illness, weakness and/or death. I am trying to pay more attention to the words from Don Q.
If and when something happens to Don Q, how will Sancho's life change? They have shared so many good times and bad times to gether.
marni0308
July 31, 2006 - 08:43 am
Maryal: Maybe you've seen too many horror movies!!
There are so many creepy clowns in movies - and puppets, too. Did you ever read Stephen King's book IT? CREEPY.
I used to watch Howdy Doody everyday, too. Where I lived, it was on Channel 8 at 5:00 p.m., I think. I loved it, but the marionettes were pretty weird looking. Remember Mr. Bluster? Then there were Buffalo Bob, Princess Summer Fall Winter Spring, and there was a chief somebody. My husband told me he was once in the Peanut Gallery.
The sock lamb puppet was Lambchop, I think. That was a cute show. I was sad when Sheri died - of cancer, I think I read.
One of my best friends used to be a clown. She and her mother - just local events like annual parades. They were both very heavy. My friend sadly told me she liked to dress up like a clown to hide her body and pretend she was something else.
Deems
July 31, 2006 - 08:47 am
marni--YES! Lambchop. That's it. All I could think of was that it was a lamb. But no on the horror movies. I like good horror movies. I enjoy being scared. Clowns and puppets never scared me, they just made me feel queasy. There are a lot of sinister clowns, aren't there? This indicates that others might find them creepy too.
marni0308
July 31, 2006 - 08:50 am
Hats: I agree. The Don has definitely toned down. He's much more patient and understanding, it seems. But, then again, he has his moments when someone pulls the right string - like at the puppet show.
He and Sancho are really into the concept of enchantment now in Part II. It seems to be taking up much of this part of the book. Enchantment is the new buzz word! But, I'm so glad the Don has chosen enchantment to blame things on rather than something more wicked and evil - like witchcraft, for example. Enchantment is a more knight-errant sort of thing. Witchcraft is too serious and evil - it might make the Inquisition take a closer look at Cervantes' novel.
marni0308
July 31, 2006 - 08:56 am
Maryal: There aren't too many horror movies that I enjoy, I must admit. They creep me out. There are a few, though, that I wouldn't have missed - like Alien and Jaws. My husband loves horror movies and always wants to drag me off to see one. He and my son just saw The Lady of the Lake (I think that was the name.) I stayed home and watched Vanity Fair again. Now my husband wants to go see The Descent. It looks way too gory for me. No thanks!
You've got me thinking about the Muppets. My son watched a lot of Sesame Street when he was a little boy. We watched together. What a good children's program. I loved the Muppets. Dan had a little Ernie doll and a Bert doll. Jim Henson was such a genius. What a shame about him and the flu.
Deems
July 31, 2006 - 09:28 am
marni--If the movie is "Lady in the Water," it's very tame and I think you would have enjoyed it. Has humor in it too. Nowhere near "Alien" which may have been the best horror film I've seen.
Deems
July 31, 2006 - 01:55 pm
I haven't gotten through XXVII yet, but have finished through XXVI, the downfall of the puppets!!!!
I have to type out just one paragraph because I found myself cheering our knight on (see above remarks on puppet hatred):
And speaking and taking action, he unsheathed his sword, leaped next to the stage, and with swift and never before seen fury began to rain down blows on the crowd of Moorish puppets, knocking down some, beheading others, ruining this one, destroying that one, and among many other blows, he delivered so powerful a downstroke that if Master Pedro had not stooped, crouched down, and hunched over, he would have cut off his head more easily than if it had been so much marzipan.
That's all one sentence! Really keeps the action going. I am wondering, amparo, if that is all one sentence in Spanish.
I also loved the response of the others in the audience. This is the same sort of formula that Cervantes has used before to sum up the responses to one action or another of DQ, and for me, they get funnier every time.
The audience of spectators was in a tumult, the monkey ran out the window and onto the roof, the cousin was fearful, the page was frightened, and even Sancho Panza was terrified, because, as he swore when the storm was over, he had never seen his master in so wild a fury.
Anyway, folks, Don Quixote is now my hero for destroying all those puppets. He even gallantly pays for them as he blames the enchantment he is under for turning what is real into something else that he sees.
Our knight is no longer simply raining blows down on priests in a procession. Now his fury is taken out on things that cannot feel pain.
Now, if there are only some C L O W N S out there. Turn him loose on the C L O W N S !!
judywolfs
July 31, 2006 - 01:55 pm
What a clear, concise explanation of aprocrypha from Deems! I thought that those books of the Bible were referred to as aprocrypha because they were originally written in Greek, which is why they were of doubtful authorship. The official Roman Catholic bible doesn’t include them. Cervantes wouldn’t have wanted to anger the Church so I think when he called the cave adventure aprocryphial, he certainly meant it in the bible-ish (is there such a word) way, rather than as “fictitious.”
Oh my heavens I don’t like clowns or puppets either. Yes indeed they are very creepy and I’d like to add, so are tamed monkeys (except for Curious George). Does anybody remember Kukla, Fran and Ollie? (A kids TV puppet show right around the time of Howdy Doody). And do you remember a movie called “The Love of Seven Dolls” in which the puppeteer shows his feelings only through his puppets.
At first I didn't blame DQ quite so much for attacking the puppets, simply because they ARE puppets. But wait! He thought they were real when he attacked them, so I guess I must go ahead and blame it on his berserk way of thinking.
By way Marni, I think the chief on Howdy Doody was named Thundercloud.
~JudyS
Deems
July 31, 2006 - 01:56 pm
Bash those C L O W N S , Don Quixote !!!
Deems
July 31, 2006 - 01:58 pm
Hi, Judy, who also doesn't like clowns. Join me and a whole lot of others. When I see clowns invited to birthday parties, I want to grab the parents and tell them to rethink the whole plan!
judywolfs
July 31, 2006 - 02:01 pm
Paying for the puppets caused a little bit of an argument when Don Quixote thought the princess puppet he destroyed couldn't possibly be her, since she would have safely flown off to wherever she was heading all because he attacked the wicked other puppets that were after her. He must still believe the puppets are (or were) real, even though he's seeing them up close as fabric and pasteboard.
~JudyS
Joan Pearson
July 31, 2006 - 02:11 pm
Oh, Judy, that's right! He still believed the princess was real and got away. ! But what does it mean that he was so willing to pay for the damage? Does he realize now that he made a mistake - No, he believes that the Enchanter changed their appearances. The Enchanter is the same as the Devil, no?
That was a very funny scene - the totting up of the bill. Yes, Marni, Don Q. is quite generous with his money - he must have come well prepared this trip!
You know, I had been thinking DQ's mental health was improving, but after this I don't think he'll EVER get past the knight-errantry delusion!
CAN'T WAIT for you to read Chapter 27. It changes the whole dynamic of this particular puppet show. Yes! Don Q. thought the story was REAL, which explains why he got into it. I BELIEVE that the puppeteer knew all about the Don's weakness, which is why he staged this particular story. But how would he know? Maybe his monkey told him? No, really please read chapter 27 and come right back! You are in for a shock!
I LOVED Kukla, Fran and Dear Old Ollie. What was not to like? Gosh by gee and gosh by golly, Kukla Fran... I can still hear that tune!
The only puppets I remember disliking were Punch and Judy. I remember seeing a show at the Smithsonian...I think. I was horrified at the violence. Worse than any cartoon I'd ever seen.
The reason I looked for the Dore illustration was to check and see whether these puppets were marionettes. ALthough I don't see any strings in the illustration, I imagine that the puppetters arms would have been slashed by Don Q's sword if they were hand puppets!
From the link to the history of puppetry - In The Middle Ages the Christian Church used puppets to spread church doctrine.
Monks and priests were the puppeteers.
The Nativity, the story of the birth of Jesus, was a favorite play.
Generally, marionettes, small jointed figures operated with strings, were used to enact the story. The name Marionette , meaning "Little Mary" may have come from the figure of The Virgin Mary, Mother of Jesus, in the telling of the Nativity story. It may also have come from the word marotte
meaning fool's scepter.
In the fourteenth or fifteenth century puppeteers began to explore themes other than religious ones. A comedic influence began to emerge. The Church decided puppets were no longer suitable for their teaching. However, puppet theater found a new home in the streets and fairs of the working class. By the sixteenth century, puppet theaters existed all over Europe. Marionette operas were popular.
Please do read Chapter 27! - I am bursting and can't wait for you to catch up!!!
marni0308
July 31, 2006 - 02:54 pm
Yes, JudyS, it was Chief Thundercloud! I never would have remembered.
Maryal: I love your observation about "the response of the others in the audience." The formula. That's exactly what it is - and Cervantes does it a lot - there's definitely more of the formula to come.
You know, the Don sort of bashes a clown when he bashes Sancho every once in awhile. Sancho doesn't have on the white face and red nose, but he certainly is a clown now and then.
Did anyone ever see the stuffed monkey toy that clangs two cymbals together when it's wound up? Now, that's a monkey that is creepy. I think it's been used in horror movies, too, in some sort of evil context - probably some sort of Chucky movie or something.
Oh, drats, Maryal! My husband said I would have liked Lady in the Water, too. (I think I said Lady in the Lake before.) Well, I missed it. I agree, Alien was the scariest best horror movie of all time. I wouldn't have missed that one for the world!
1amparo
July 31, 2006 - 06:32 pm
Those are the "official" dates of Cervantes life. However, his actual date of birth is not known as on those times, in Spain, it was not recorded the actual day of birth;
9th October is the date he was baptized and because his name was "Miguel" and San Miguel's day is 30 September, hence it is a guess. Babies were baptized usually within days of birth.
Also when he died: (four days after having finished his volume ii of Don Quixote), the actual date is 22 April, but again on those times it was recorded the day one was buried, hence 23rd April, 1616.
So. Cervantes was 68½ years old when he died.
Deems: amparo, if this is all one sentence in Spanish?
And speaking and taking action, he unsheathed his sword, leaped next to the stage, and with swift and never before seen fury began to rain down blows on the crowd of Moorish puppets, knocking down some, beheading others, ruining this one, destroying that one, and among many other blows, he delivered so powerful a downstroke that if Master Pedro had not stooped, crouched down, and hunched over, he would have cut off his head more easily than if it had been so much marzipan.
This is what Cervantes wrote:
"
Y diciendo y haciendo, desenvainó la espada, y de un brinco se puso junto al retablo, y con acelerada y nunca vista furia comenzó a llover cuchilladas sobre la titerera morisma, derribando a unos descabezando a otros, estropeando a éste, destrozando aquél, y, ntre otros muchos, tiró un altibajo tal, que si maese Pedro no se abaja, se encoge y agazapa, le cercenara la cabeza con más facilidad que si fuera hecha de masa de mazapán." Few words on that sentence, young people now a days will not have a clue at their meaning.
Amparo
hats
August 1, 2006 - 03:43 am
Maryal, I love clowns and puppets. Remember Claribel on Howdy Doody? Your feelings about clowns and puppets have made me fall out laughing.
JoanP chapter twenty-seven completely shocked me especially because I fell for Master Pedro's green disguise. I thought anyone working a puppet show would have to be totally nice and true. I fell for him hook, line and sinker. Really, Master Pedro is one of the galley slaves! People certainly come back to haunt us in this tale. Gines de Pasamonte is the guy who stole Sancho's donkey.
From now on I am keeping my eyes open knowing any character may make a reappearance in the Don's life.
Gines de Pasamonte is a fugitive from the law! He is an all out criminal.
Amparo, do the colors, like green, have any special or symbolic meaning in Don Quixote? Should we keep our eyes open for colors? That green really threw me off. Well, I guess Gines was pretending to be a peace loving man by wearing green. Now I really don't trust that other guy who wore green, Mr. Hospitality. I am keeping my eye on him. I think JoanP is right to distrust him.
hats
August 1, 2006 - 03:54 am
Since this is the First Modern Novel, probably, Cervantes did not have many writing helps. Today, there are many books about writing: how to write a novel, how to write a poem, how to write a play, how to create characters and on and on.
Without these aids how in the world did Cervantes hold all these characters and mini plots in his head? Did he write an outline? Are there any of his original manuscripts left, Amparo ? If these have already been shown or discussed, excuse me. I can't keep all of these wonderful facts in my head.
hats
August 1, 2006 - 05:20 am
Maryal, if you have a true phobia of clowns and puppets, excuse me for taking your post lightly. Phobias are real. What makes me happy might truly make someone else feel sick. I try to respect the phobias of others. It's like the do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
I have heard it said clowns are the saddest people in the world. Maybe you and others can feel their sorrow.
1amparo
August 1, 2006 - 05:32 am
I don't know about colours and why green is more predominant.
In regards to his manuscripts and documents, yes most of them (100's & 100"s) are kept in the archives of Biblioteca Nacional - Real Academia Española and all over Spain; towns and cities he lived in. For instance the curch where he was baptized in Alcala de Henare has that record.
Some of the documents were lost during the Spanish civil war, others had been lost, retrieved and lost again. BN and RAE are confident and hopeful more documents will come up with the searches but it will take years.
Cervantes after he returned to Spain from being in captivity, did ask more than once for an "insula" (Sancho was luckier!) in the Indies/America.The king's secretary was Lope de Vega's friend, thus the king never saw Cervantes petitions; instead he was given the tax collection in South Spain. Not only was this a very badly paid part-time job: it landed him in jail!
Amparo
Tuesday 1st August. 10pm and I am off to bed.
Deems
August 1, 2006 - 07:00 am
Hats, not to worry. My dislike of C L O W N S
is not a phobia. I don't think I have any phobias, or none I have discovered as yet. But I don't like them. Because of similar dislike of puppets, I was suspicious of Master Pedro from the beginning. And also the monkey thing which was clearly a trick. A soothsaying monkey who can't tell anything about the future? Something wrong there.
Amparo, thank you for the sentence in Spanish, it's all one sentence there too. Will ask my daughter to translate as best she can, but I can make out a little of it. Also thank you for the information about manuscripts, existent and missing. I hope the lost ones will be found.
Maryal
Deems
August 1, 2006 - 07:02 am
And,
HERE for those of you who don't have a donkey in the back yard is the sound of a donkey braying, if it works.
hats
August 1, 2006 - 07:09 am
Oh, I loved the part about the braying contest. Thank Maryal.
Phyll
August 1, 2006 - 08:17 am
I think it is something about that fixed artificial expression that put me off. It didn't matter if it was a happy or sad one. It just NEVER changed! That always bothered me. And it seemed the puppet always had the cutting, hurtful punch line. It was as though the human couldn't get away with saying something so disparaging and cruel but since it was just a puppet, well, that was ok.
On the other hand, the Muppets were different. Gentle and kind and helped children to express and live through their fears and uncertainties.
So, "Slay On!, Don Q.! Kill those nasty marionettes! Kill them all!"
(Enjoyed the donkey's bray-----as long as he isn't doing it at 3 o'clock in the morning!)
Joan Pearson
August 1, 2006 - 08:28 am
Good morning! Maryal, the donkey brayers...of course! We can't forget the impending war which brings us to the inn in the first place! Our Don cannot resist a story, and this one promises to be a good one as the brayer is travelling with arms, ready for conflict. Who knows, our knight just might fight by his side to defend his honor! I'm sure we haven't heard the last of him!
Amparo, thank you for the age calculation. Both the Don and his creator are of a certain age, the author however is ill. We don't know about Don yet, though he has that awful pallor that suggests all is not well.
Phyll, I've begun a green sweater this morning...100 percent wool in this heat! We are supposed to reach 101 here today in the DC area. Knitters are not always rational...I'm thinking of you, this morning, and the question about all the green we are seeing in Don Quixote!
Green - I've spent the morning researching those awful pdf files that you can't copy. I will try to sum up what I found without too much documentation simply because I can't go back and type out the sentence from each source. I'll tell you what I remember from what I read. You might be able to find more information on this.
Green was in fact a popular color at the time among the wealthy, not the poor. It was especially favored by travellers and hunters. Color was symbolic and much was read into the colors one wore. The Inquisition often made mistakes in judging a person by the color he was wearing. If one had come by certain garments which were Moorish in appearance, style or color, he usually got rid of them as quickly as possible.
So, it wouldn't have been unsual to meet the Man in the Green Coat on the road. One source said that Cervantes did not often describe attire in these volumes, but when he did, all action would halt and attention would be focussed on the garments- and on the wearer. There are said to be eighteen different colors mentioned in Don Q...most often green, tawny and gold.
Cervantes, being Cervantes often wrote of paradox when describing costume. Sort of like - "all that glitters is not gold." So some scholars see Cervantes dressing in green those who may not be what they seem. Much is made of Don Diego de Miranda and his green coat. Scholars see him as a man who is not what he protests to be. They point out that just as we never did get a chance to see the interior of his house, only the exterior, we really never did get to know the man himself. The scholars imply that Don Diego didn't see himself either. The green coat was a symbol of "self-deceit."
I wonder if we will meet Don Diego again and learn more. So Hats - keep your eyes open for green in the future. Especially eye-patches that cover most of one's face!
Coffee! Hot coffee!
Deems
August 1, 2006 - 08:35 am
Morning, Joan, and it is HOT here, isn't it. I just took the cans to the street for recycling and felt like I had done a morning's work. The newspapers and cardboard still have to go, but I'm taking this in stages. The green sweater will also be one of those incredibly complicated Irish ones, no? Thank heaven your air conditioner is fixed or we would have to lock you up.
As for Green and its popularity among the upper classes, I wonder how practical it would have been to wear in the woods. We must ask Amparo if the woods are thick enough that one really ought to wear another color so as not to be shot by passing hunters. It sounds like a very bad choice for travelling in woodsy areas to me, but I'm from Maine (and Chicago) where it was a routine matter to see a deer strapped to the front of a vehicle during hunting season. Had to get used to that, I did, city girl that I was.
But dead deer not as bad as C L O W N S
Joan Pearson
August 1, 2006 - 08:46 am
Maryal, I agree, tawny would have been a better choice. I guess green is better to wear in the woods than a little red riding hood though.
Hats - I had been watching out for Sanson...and was totally shocked as you were to learn Maestro Pedro was Gines de Pasamonte - I can't remember exactly what his criminal act was, can you? Gosh that was a long time ago. I'm thinking that he was a Moor. I'm thinking that he was furious with Don Quixote or at least turned on him once he was free. Will have to go back and reread that! Awful memory!
So someone informed him who the guest of honor would be...probably the innkeeper? And he knew in advance that Don Quixote was not quite right and would react the way he did to this particular story? Did he know he'd be so well compensated? I mean, what was the point? Simply to get even with Don Quixote for the past?
Since he made his way back into the story in such an unexpected way, who else might we expect to meet again??? I'll bet on Don Diego in the Green Coat...but would love to meet up with Marcela, the Golden Age girl and see how she likes living alone. Who would you like to meet before the story ends?
I'm not exactly understanding the point of the donkey brayer war, are you? Except perhaps to give Don Quixote a chance to preach the four (five?) times that war is justified. I found that extremely interesting. Did you notice the crowd seemed to be calming down as he spoke? But did they hear what he was saying? From the way they reacted to Sancho's braying, Don Quixote's words seemed to go in one ear and out the other...
hats
August 1, 2006 - 08:53 am
JoanP, I thought the four justifications for war very interesting. I am thinking the peasant girl might show up again. I would like for Basilio and his wife to show up again.
Deems
August 1, 2006 - 09:02 am
JoanP-I got the impression from several comparisons Quixote or Sancho made that the braying was directed at politicians. For example, in chap XXVII, Sancho says,
"It well might be that the councilmen who brayed in time became the mayors of their villages, and so can be called by both titles, especially since it doesn't matter to the truth of the history if the brayers were mayors or councilmen, since they really did bray, and a mayor's as good as a councilman for braying."
We live in the midst of many braying politicians so perhaps I am merely reacting to the environment.
judywolfs
August 1, 2006 - 11:50 am
I was SHOCKED and disappointed by Don Quixote running off when Sancho was attacked by the people from the braying village! How cowardly and unfaithful. Of course, he has all kinds of excuses about that one - but I can't accept his behavior in this case. He was afraid so he abandoned his faithful squire to be beaten by the unruly mob.
~JudyS
Deems
August 1, 2006 - 11:55 am
Judy--I felt the same way. But I guess we have to remember that it is only when Don Quixote is in a fighting mood that he fights. When he sees danger, real danger, that is, he flees. But I'm with you on the disappointment.
Joan Pearson
August 1, 2006 - 12:38 pm
Judy, DQ attempts an explanation at the start of Chapter 28. I didn't understand the fine points his argument...he wasn't fleeing??? Obviously he feels justified. He says, "he who retreats isn't running." I just don't follow his reasoning.
There was another line in the opening that puzzled me too - "When a brave man takes to his heels, look for deceit." What on earth does this mean?
Sidi Benengeli tells us to read carefully in the opening line preceding the chapter - does he mean we should read between the lines? I've read the first paragraphs to this chapter three times and still don't get it. I'm counting on you all!
Deems
August 1, 2006 - 01:09 pm
I'm with you, Joan P. I've read the beginning of Chap XXVIII and I don't buy the argument. It sounds like semantics, word play, to me. Sancho thinks DQ ran away. DQ claims that he withdrew to wait for "a better moment." This argument continues to go on. {Can't resist the contemporary example: Will the U.S. withdraw its troops from Iraq or will the U.S. cut and run? See the difference language makes?}
It reminds me of sentences from the Viet Nam era like "We had to destroy the village in order to save it."
So much can be done with language, some of it despicable indeed.
I've only read the beginning of XXVIII though. Perhaps DQ will win me over in the end. I'm still grateful to him for destroying the puppets.
hats
August 1, 2006 - 01:19 pm
Maryal, I'm still disappointed that Don Q harmed the puppets. If Don Q had been in his right mind, he never would have done such a thing.
Deems
August 1, 2006 - 01:35 pm
Hats, your support of the puppets is admirable. Just goes to show you that we all react differently to puppets. Do you like C L O W N S
?
hats
August 1, 2006 - 01:39 pm
Yes, I love clowns too.
Deems
August 1, 2006 - 01:40 pm
Hats,
judywolfs
August 1, 2006 - 01:56 pm
Deems, every time I see your "C L O W N S" I laugh out loud. Somehow it seems to be so sinister and looming but deceptively cheerful.
About DQ - I remember an elemenetary school rhyme: He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day." Maybe that's what he meant by withdraw. But I still don't buy it.
~ JudyS
Mippy
August 1, 2006 - 02:20 pm
Finally catching up to find Maestro Pedro is Gines de Pasamonte.
I was also glad when DQ destroyed the puppets, and not even sure why.
I supposed it was because M. Pedro was clearly a con man.
The puppets were, in some cases, paper cut-outs, as we find when they discuss how much
DQ must pay for replacements.
That whole episode was a little too weird for me, so I'm looking forward to reading on ... on the dusty trail.
hats
August 1, 2006 - 02:27 pm
In chapter xxviii, Sancho cries. There have been many times where unkind words are said by Sancho to Don Q and Don Q to Sancho. Is this the first time Sancho cried?
Even with Sancho's tears, his words are funny.
"Senor, I confess that for me to be a complete jackass, all that's missing is my tail; if your grace wants to put one on me, I'll consider it well-placed...."
Deems
August 1, 2006 - 02:54 pm
Welcome back, Mippy, and congratulations on catching up. Soon we have to chug on to --yikes--two more chapters and discuss whether running away is a strategic measure or cowardice.
The problem really isn't with the running away, is it? It's with the fact that DQ deserts his faithful squire. I understand why Sancho is so angry.
JoanK
August 1, 2006 - 08:00 pm
I'm behind, about to watch the puppet show. I loved the braying village! When I lived abroad, I was woken up every morning by donkeys braying. One would start, and another join in. It took city-bred me a long time to figure out what it was -- I thought someone sure has a rusty gate.
Living near DC, it seems that every time a politician (of either party) brays, we have to hear about it endlessly!! It will help to remember braying contests -- I'll have to go practice.
marni0308
August 1, 2006 - 09:53 pm
Isn't that just too much about the people fighting each other over braying. I love Maryal's quote about the politicians. This chapter was too funny.
Of course, Sancho has to speak up - er - bray up - so that everyone turns on him. His mouth is always getting him in trouble. And poor old Don Quixote shows his true colors by running away leaving his faithful squire in the lurch??!!
Maryal: Here are 2 sites just for you!
http://www.ags.uci.edu/~dcoble/clowns/clowns.html http://www.scaryornot.com/ Oops, sorry!!
Mippy
August 2, 2006 - 05:35 am
Since 3 or 4 people have posted about being behind, may we trot along the trail more slowly for one more day?
Joan Pearson
August 2, 2006 - 05:41 am
Sure, Mippy We can put off the boat adventure until tomorrow if you'd like to spend another day on the braying in Chapter XXVIII today... Especially if you and JoanK promise to read closely as Sidi Benengeli suggests to see what it is he expects us to find here. The rest of us are sitting here on the trail scratching our heads this morning! You've come along just in time!
We are left with one angry knight and one angry squire at this point. Maryal understands Sancho's anger at being left behind to fight the angry brayers. Does anyone sympathize with Don Q's anger? Marni sees the whole incident the result of Sancho's opening his mouth again - (this time to bray.) Didn't DQ feel that Sancho had caused the attack? Did he feel perhaps that such a battle with the brayers was not justified under any of the four circumstances where war the solution? That this was Sancho's war?
I loved the irony tucked in at the end...there wasn't a battle with the other villagers after all. (What if we declared a war, but no one showed up?)...
So...does Don Q. mean it when he offers to pay Sancho and send him on his way - or is he using psychology, knowing that Sancho really doesn't want to go?
I would understand if Sancho went home. I think he means it this time...but then as Hats pointed out, he actually cries for forgiveness! Is it because he just can't let go of the impossible dream after all?
marni0308
August 2, 2006 - 10:07 am
Sancho's pretty interesting the way he is pulled in 2 directions regarding the Don. On the one hand, Sancho wants to go home because he thinks the Don is loony and Sancho is tired of getting hurt like being tossed in the blanket etc; he doesn't think he's going to get anything out of the knight errantry business. On the other hand, he loves the Don, is enjoying his adventures and being away from home, and thinks he will gain some sort of monetary reward or an island that he will govern.
Poor Sancho. What would a psychologist say about him? He even said a couple of chapters earlier that he just couldn't bring himself to leave the Don because he loved him. His own vacillation seems to frustrate Sancho to no end. The poor guy certainly is manipulated by the Don, who makes Sancho feel guilty and cry (actually "blubber"). The two of them certainly make a team, all in all.
Marni
judywolfs
August 2, 2006 - 11:44 am
character in the book. I don't like to see him mistreated, and I must admit that I'm kind of angry at Don Quixote for the way he's disrespecting Sancho and more or less mocking him, after abandoning him. Every time Sancho gets up the nerve to be outspoken and rebellious towards DQ, my heart does a secret little happy dance. And I think those little happy dances are becoming mre and more frequent.
~JudyS
Deems
August 2, 2006 - 12:24 pm
marni--Thank you for the links to the ghastly clowns. All clowns look ghastly to me, especially the o-so-jolly ones with the big red smiles painted over half their faces. ICK.
I've just been rereading the conversation between Sancho and DQ in Chap. XXVIII and this time through, I noticed something I think significant.
After Sancho goes on at some length pointing out to DQ that his journey has not been easy,his sleep uncomfortable, and the provisions few, DQ responds by urging Sancho to "say everything that comes to your mind and your mouth; in exchange for your not having any pains, I shall consider the irritation your impertinence causes me as pleasure," and then adds that if Sancho really wants to go home, DQ will pay him what he owes him.
Speaking has always eased pains that I have had, and here we see that DQ feels that Sancho's pain from the beating is being eased as he complains about all his discomforts.
So true in my experience though I know others who don't feel so relieved after they talk. Maybe it has something to do with the difference between extroverts and introverts, but I always feel better once I have spoken aloud whatever is bothering me.
Maryal
Deems
August 2, 2006 - 12:25 pm
Judy--I feel protective of Sancho too although he seems to be standing up for himself pretty well these days.
Mippy
August 2, 2006 - 12:44 pm
Yes, lets hear cheers for Sancho standing up for himself,
being a "mensch" (see or don't see, as you wish, the discussion of this word in Book Nook)
marni0308
August 2, 2006 - 01:44 pm
Hip, hip, hooray!!
1amparo
August 2, 2006 - 11:32 pm
This link has drawings of the house where Cervantes was born in Alcala de Henares and photos of his home in Valladolid: his bed and writing desk. More interesting pictures in following pages if you click on "siguiente". To see enlarge pic click on it.
Cide Hamete, Aldonza, Sancho, et cetera, they are all here.
Cervantes Photos Amparo
hats
August 3, 2006 - 12:43 am
Amparo, thank you. I have bookmarked the page.
Joan Pearson
August 3, 2006 - 05:37 am
Good morning, Amparo! Thank you so much for the photo ablum! Priceless! Will store it in the heading for future reference! One thing though - my poor, poor Spanish language skills - Which illustration is Cidi Hamete?
The last picture on the last page has a startling illustration of a blindfolded knight falling off Rocinante. I think this is an apt description of our Don Quixote. When you are blindfolded you can't see the reality of what is in front of you and must rely on other senses - OR on your imagination.
There seems to be quite a cheering section for Sancho among us - I take it as a cheer for the realist over the dreamer? For one who sees things as they are, (MOST OF THE TIME ) and isn't afraid to stand up and say what he thinks and feels.
So, my question for all of you who champion Sancho - do you think he should have gone home as he said he would? Were you cheering him on in his resolve? Were you disappointed in him when he began to "blubber" and beg for forgiveness and plead to go on with his "master"? Marni, you put it very well - but I'm afraid I don't see the love and concern for Don Q as I once did. His frustration seems to be overcoming those earlier feelings as Don Quixote seems to show no concern for him. He's all too willing to pay him off and let him go as he wishes.
To tell the truth, I was more surprised at Don Q.'s cavalier attitude regarding Sancho's leaving than about the way he left him to fend off the brayers, Judy. Sancho begs to continue, but it is clear in the next episode of the enchanted boat that he is rethinking his decision. I expect that we will see him wavering back and forth - to the end, to the bitter end, I'm afraid. Sancho seems to burst with pride when Don Quixote is at his best and lucid, and then despair to the point of leaving when the Don shows his madness. I'm convinced now that he will return to this mad state whenever knight errantry becomes the issue. I think this is the nature of his illness...incurable.
Maryal, you point out that Sancho is an extravert...That IS important. The Introverted Knight and the Extraverted Squire. A formula for continued friction between the two, no? Several times, I've seen Sancho expressing feelings that Don Q. cannot. I think an introvert NEEDS someone like Sancho in his life. He just can't admit that. Maybe that's why Don Q. tells Sancho that he can go if that's what he wants to do. He really doesn't mean it, but doesn't know how to say otherwise.
So, we're on the road again. It doesn't take much to get into the next episode, does it. Not a castle this time, or a richly attired nobleman...just a little abandonned fishing boat can become an enchanted boat taking them to the next adventure.
hats
August 3, 2006 - 05:41 am
Good morning JoanP, I feel that Sancho and Don Q need one another. With either one gone, the personality of the other one would melt away. So, I do not side with either in general. I just take each quarrel as it comes along. No, I do not want Sancho to go home. Don Q needs him. I believe Don Q is aware of his own need of Sancho. Perhaps, this is why they can always make up and go on.
I have lost my place. Are we talking about the enchanted boat?
Joan Pearson
August 3, 2006 - 05:56 am
Good morning, Hats - yes the boat! We've been idling under the elms, the beech and the poplar trees. (I love to read Cervantes place descriptions from so long ago!)
"...elm trees, beech trees and all others like them always seem to have feet, but no hands." What did Cervantes mean by this?
I feel there was some sort of parallel between the trees with feet and Don Q's fleeing but can't make it work. Do trees have feet - or roots?
Hopefully the extra day allowed others to catch up with us...
We're on the banks of the Ebro River this morning. I was curious that the sight of the river stirred "amorous" feelings in Don Q's breast. I'm wondering what "amorous" means here...how do other translations handle this word? Amparo, can you tell us the Spanish word?
Sancho is immediately frustrated when he has to tie up his mule and Rocinante and get in the boat. Can either swim? Only Sancho seems aware of the foolhardiness of this!
hats
August 3, 2006 - 06:01 am
"...elm trees, beech trees and all others like them always seem to have feet, but no hands." What did Cervantes mean by this I feel there was some sort of parallel between the trees with feet
JoanP, those lines puzzled me too. I remember spending time rereading those lines about trees having feet. I know there are old trees I have seen with the trunk, I guess it's the trunk, growing out and long like roots above ground.
Mippy
August 3, 2006 - 07:03 am
Let's get on the boat... having caught up ... but why is it an enchanted boat? It's just an ordinary boat that DQ steals, and the
mills on the island are like windmills, redux.
Well, DQ is having hallucinations again, isn't he?
I was surprised that the boat adventure led to a nice reception by the duke and his beautiful lady. These noble hosts appear to believe in DQ's adventures and also to enjoy Sancho's word-play and stumbling.
I don't quite see the significance, do you?
judywolfs
August 3, 2006 - 09:28 am
The whole boat episode seemed strangely pointless to me. DQ steals a fisherman's boat, drifts out to the mill, tries to attack the millers, capsizes the boat which is completly destroyed in the millrace, is rescued from drowning by the millers and after paying the fisherman for the boat admits that this adventure was meant for a different knight to carry out. During the whole episode, Sancho makes every effort to bring DQ back to some semblance of reality, but nothing works. I think Don Quixote has become totally engulfed in his madness; and he wouldn't have it any other way.
~JudyS
Deems
August 3, 2006 - 09:38 am
Good afternoon, mes compadres. I think the "mes" is wrong, but I'm trying. Amparo can help perhaps. {Edit--daughter says should be "mis"}
Thank you, Amparo for that treasure of portraits and interiors. I really enjoyed Cervantes' desk, which is on the first page. Look at those quill pens! It is almost time (next weekend) for the Washington DC SuperShow--fountain pens--which is the largest in the world. There will be people from many different countries there in addition to lots and lots of pens. I've done only a little writing with a quill pen. It is difficult for anyone used to modern pens.
JoanP--If you go to page 2, you will find an artist's conception of Cide Hamete. He has a turban on. At bottom of first page, click on "Siguiente." On next page, go down to "Varia." Go three rows down and four portraits over--and THERE he is, Cide Hamete his ownself.
There are more and more riches on this link. Keep clicking on "Siguiente" at the bottom of the page. There are even postage stamps here, absolutely wonderful ones of Don Quixote and Sancho. I have to find out where to get those.
This is a real T R E A S U R E
Thank you, again, Amparo
Maryal
Deems
August 3, 2006 - 10:26 am
Judy, while it's true that there's not much in the story of the boat and the watermills, I think in order to see something in this chapter, you have to look at the language, especially the language of Don Quixote. He continually uses elaborate words while simultaneously telling Sancho that he can't possibly understand, having never learned Latin. The humor is all in the way DQ addresses the "reality" which Sancho sees.
For example, Don Quixote says,
"If I had an astrolabe here and could calculate the height of the pole, I could tell you how far we have traveled, although either I know very little, or we have already passed, or will soon pass, the equinoctial line that divides and separates the opposite poles at an equal distance from each."
When Sancho asks how far they have come, DQ responds,
"A good distance because of the three hundred and sixty degrees of water and earth that the globe contains, according to the computations of Ptolemy, the greatest cosmographer known to man, we shall have traveled half that distance when we reach the line I have mentioned."
Sancho's reply scrambles the name Ptolemy to "a toll with a meow or something like that."
Humor is never funny when it is explained, but I continue undeterred.
The next funny bit is when DQ tells Sancho that lice die as soon as a ship crosses the equator, that not one louse can be found on all the ship. Then he instructs Sancho to examine his body to discover the truth of this statement (Grossman's footnote indicates that the demise of lice was believed by sailors at the time).
Here comes the funny bit. Sancho does as instructed, puts his hand behind his left knee and says, "Either the test is false, or we haven't gone as far as your grace says, not by many leagues."
To DQ's question as to whether he has "come across something," Sancho responds, "More like somethings," and he then washes his entire hand in the water.
Earlier, in response to all DQ's stories of how far they have come and about how no louse can live if they have crossed the equator Sancho says,
"I don't believe any of that but even so, I'll do what your grace tells me to, though I don't know why we need to make these tests, since I can see with my own eyes that we haven't gone five varas from the shore, and we haven't moved two varas from the animals because there's Rocinante and the donkey exactly where we left them, and looking carefully, which is what I'm doing now, I swear that we're not even moving or traveling as fast as an ant."
The whole episode reminds me of two children playing on a sofa, imagining that it is a ship, with one describing how far they have come and the other refusing to join in the play and insisting that they are still as close to the chair as they were when they set off.
Maryal
judywolfs
August 3, 2006 - 10:52 am
Maybe those examples, Maryal, point out that Don Quixote is absolutely wallowing in his madness, he deliberately chooses to ignore facts and prefers to be crazy rather than face reality.
~ JudyS
Deems
August 3, 2006 - 10:59 am
Judy--yep, that too, but I think more is being said here. Maybe something about how people can deliberately use language--especially language which is scientific, learned, technical, reserved for those who know the jargon--to cover up the reality that others see.
That would possibly be a point being made by Cervantes, of course, not Don Quixote.
Deems
August 3, 2006 - 11:40 am
I keep going back to the LINK provided by Amparo and discovering new things. If you go there, look at the right-hand column. Go down to "Imagenes" then to "Filmografia." If you click on "Filmografia," you will find a list of MOVIES made about Don Quixote. The most recent one I noticed was "El Caballero Don Quijote," released in 2002. I'm going to see if Netflix has it. There are some still shots from the movie if you click on it.
I LOVE the internet!
If you look at the stamps page (under "Galeria") you can make all the little stamps big by clicking on them. There is a wonderful one--I think it's wonderful--of Sancho and his donkey with title of "companero mio." The picture is Sancho embracing his donkey.
This is really SUCH fun for really hot weather here in Washington DC, USA.
JoanP--could you put one of these stamps here in the discussion so that everyone can see it? I have a fast connection. Don't know how many people have telephone modems or how fast this site loads.
hats
August 3, 2006 - 12:53 pm
Maryal, I think that link given by Amparo is a treasure" too. I feel so sorry for Don Q. He's having one of those mind attacks again. He thinks the millers, with their floury faces, are monsters. Really, the millers save his life and Sancho's too.
Joan Pearson
August 3, 2006 - 01:59 pm
There's something about the calm river that makes Don Quixote reflective. I can relate to that. We're told he thinks back to what he saw in Montesinos' Cave. It's as if he's daydreaming. It is in this frame of mind, thinking that he is indeed the knight of the cave dream - that he happens to see that little seemingly abandoned boat.
"It was just an ordinary boat..." Mippy- to you and to Sancho it was just an just an ordinary boat but What if it were a magic carpet lying there in the sun? The same thing to Don Q..the boat is the means to the next knightly adventure..Sancho, God bless him, tries to warn him and is subjected to the barrage of insults. He's a coward, a traitor...Did he have a choice but to tie up his donkey and get in the boat? Well, did he?
I put Amparo's link into the header for future reference ...is this the one of Sancho hugging his beloved donkey that you mean, Maryal?It has to be!
Joan Pearson
August 3, 2006 - 02:05 pm
So why did Sancho get in that boat? Can he even swim? We're told that Don Q. can swim like a duck. How did he think he could save his master if he got in the boat. Do I remember correctly - wasn't there the sound of waterfalls too? It's a good thing that they spotted the castle/flour mill when they did or it could have been worse. I can't wait to see some of these scenes in film when we are through reading the book. But you know, I don't think they can improve on what I'm seeing on that little stage in my imagination!
Oh, yes there were funny lines, Maryal - I LOVED the lice test! What I really enjoyed was the crazy way that the test WORKED! The lice on Sancho's thigh proved that they hadn't reached the equator!
So what was the point of the whole boat episode, Judy asks? I just now see something I missed in the first reading. After both Don Q and Sancho have been saved by the formidable mill workers - or was it the fishermen who saved them? - DonQ concludes that the mill workers are monsters, as Hats points out - but so are the fishermen! There are now two evil magicians at work in the world. "The whole world is nothing but tricks and schemes.
The whole world is against him - and he's the only sane one? Judy, I'm going to keep in mind what you just said today - "he deliberately chooses to ignore facts and prefers to be crazy rather than face reality." Hmmm...if you perceived the rest of the world is just tricks and schemes to get you, wouldn't you prefer to ignore these tricksters? Isn't this one just a way of coping?
Mippy, you came from behind and then went ahead on the trail leaving us in a cloud of your dust!. We'll meet up with the nobles in the morning - but you are right, this boat episode makes more sense when considered along with Chapter 30. Hope everyone has read this for tomorrow?
Mippy
August 3, 2006 - 02:32 pm
Sorry I went too fast ... these mules are hard to control
marni0308
August 3, 2006 - 03:11 pm
Those pictures are so fabulous, Amparo! Thanks!
I love Sancho's dialogue as he tries to get the Don not to take the boat trip and as they float down the river. It cracked me up when he said the following, as Maryal pointed out: "...we haven't moved two varas from the animals because there's Rocinante and the donkey exactly where we left them, and looking carefully, which is what I'm doing now, I swear that we're not even moving or traveling as fast as an ant."
I loved how Sancho didn't want to leave the animals behind. He was so worried about them. He's always worried about his mule and wants to be sure it's well cared for and well fed. Maybe because the mule was kidnapped earlier in the book - although that kidnapping episode was kind of confusing.
I can't really picture the mill in the river. Is it just sitting out in the middle of the river? How can that be?
Joan Pearson
August 3, 2006 - 03:15 pm
Marni, off to dinner, but just noticed your question about the mill in the river. I wondered about it too. This is how Dore pictured it - what do you think? Later!
Deems
August 3, 2006 - 05:11 pm
Thank you, JoanP--I love that stamp with Sancho hugging his DONKEY. C'mon people, let's get the animal straight. It is a donkey.
Mules are something else, a cross between a horse and a donkey and incapable of reproducing. Donkeys are little and sweet. Mules come in a variety of sizes, many as large as a horse--and reputedly stubborn.
1amparo
August 3, 2006 - 07:00 pm
…and comadrear = gossiping.
MI: m&f s. MIS: m&f pl.
Deems your post 530 is spot on:
* * * * JoanP, Cervantes wrote: “
...don Quixote, sepultado en los pensamientos de sus amores...” = DQ buried in his amorous thoughts… I was going to send the picture of Sancho embracing his Rucio, but you got it. Good! I take it you have “met” Cide Hamete by now.
Also on the second page of the pictures link, between “ilustraciones” and “varia” there are 4 links of more pictures; I love the colour ones of
Gonzalez Rojas (2nd link) and the one when Sancho leaves for his "insula" and DQ gives him his blessing with the lady of the castle sitting down and the lord standing, (illutration 13). Here is the link:
Rojas illustrations And of course, all of these are courtesy of Cervantes virtual / RAE/ LN.
Amparo
Deems
August 3, 2006 - 07:15 pm
Amparo--hello!! We are never here at the same time.
I love the Rojas illustrations too. Isn't #10 an illustration of Sancho showing Don Quixote that he has found some lice?
That whole episode really made me laugh.
It is 10:15 pm here on the East Coast of USA. What time is it in Australia? My guess is that it's morning.
Maryal
1amparo
August 3, 2006 - 07:32 pm
Yes, it is a vey funny chater 29.
The caption on illustration 10 says of Rocinante and Rucio wanting to jump into the river to follow DQ & Sancho, just a bit before the nits?
12 midday here now and friday the 4th.
cheers.
JoanK
August 3, 2006 - 07:43 pm
My mule is hard to control, too. I've gone from being behind in reading and up with the posts to being ahead in the reading and behind in the posts (sigh).
Unfortunately, I get impatient when I'm behind. Unfortunately, AMPARO's link takes forever to load with my slow browser. I waited through two or three games of solitaire, and when I saw it was nowhere near finished, gave up.
JoanK
August 3, 2006 - 07:52 pm
"I think in order to see something in this chapter, you have to look at the language, especially the language of Don Quixote"
I think there are little (gold) nuggets of sarcasm that we are reading over. A few Chapters ago, we had a delicious parody of scholarly research in the scholar's books (the first man to blow his nose, etc.) and here we have a wonderful parody of scholarly observation. Having lived most of my life around scientists, I laughed and laughed at DQ's elaborate measurement schemes, ignoring what his eyes tell him -- then finally coming up with a ridiculous scheme that works by accident.
Measuring ones position at sea accurately was probably one of the scientific problems that seemed most urgent at that time of exploration. I'm sure Cervantes must have heard some scientific discussion of it, which he brilliantly echoes. In this (and the scholar above) do we see the self educated man making fun of formal learning?
Deems
August 3, 2006 - 08:05 pm
Amparo--You are a half day ahead and already in tomorrow. In one hour it will be Aug. 4 here.
Joan K--Yes, I agree. There is so much going on in the language. Sort of like Shakespeare. Seems to me that like Shakespeare, Cervantes was in love with language.
Maryal
marni0308
August 3, 2006 - 09:23 pm
Uh, oh, I'm one of the culprits who has been calling "Doppler" a mule instead of a donkey.
Are donkeys really sweet? I watched the film "Like Water for Chocolate" on TV last night and saw a man riding a donkey. The donkey was small. Actually, the man was so large and the donkey so small that it looked unfair, like the man was too heavy for the poor donkey. Donkeys must be strong.
1amparo
August 3, 2006 - 09:53 pm
Sancho donkey's name was "RUCIO" whomever called it something else did not translate well. It is like naming a tabby cat just that: "tabby" and some else comes and calls "tabby" "ginger or tiger"
hats
August 4, 2006 - 01:33 am
Amparo, that is so interesting. I am going back to reread Maryal's post #530. I love the cute painting JoanP posted.
Joan Pearson
August 4, 2006 - 06:21 am
Good morning, Hats! It looks like we''re the first here this morning. The painting of Sancho and his "donkey" is from a Spanish postage stamp - (mea culpa, I called him a mule too! Poor "Rucio"- thanks Amparo - will call him by his Spanish name rather than Dapple or Dabbler...)
The image on the postage stamp reminded me that Cervantes' image is also on the Spanish euro - thought you might be interested, especially if you go to Spain you might want to pick up a few of these as souvenirs, along with the postage stamps -
Yes, yes, yes,
JoanK, I agree, we are chuckling over Cervantes humor and often missing his "little (gold) nuggets of sarcasm"! Thank you for shining a light on it. I remember thinking that back when we sort of glossed over the young Humanist scholar's - (wasn't he Basilio's cousin?) - explanation of the "important" information he was studying and writing about ...which was definitely a parody of the Humanists . With so much raucous humor going on in each chapter, it is easy to miss this. I'm sure that his readers at the time picked right up on these allusions, aren't you? Thank you so much for shining a much needed spotlight on them - we need you here! (I was also delighted to hear you "laughing and laughing" right off the meter!)
Yesterday we were talking about Don Quixote's view of his world...full of tricks and schemes at every turn - I think that Cervantes was conveying a picture of the world in which he was living when he wrote this.
Shall we catch up with
Mippy this morning? She's already met the nobles on the path ahead.
How delicious! We are meeting characters who have read and enjoyed the Cidi Hamete Benengeli's first volume and are fans of the "knightly hero"! How funny! Can you recall anyone else using this device in previous works? I wonder if this is Cervantes' own invention. I marvel at it!
Mippy
August 4, 2006 - 06:45 am
Amparo, amica mea ~ Thanks so much for the links. I love seeing the attire of the duke and
duchess, as illustrated. Note how she rides side-saddle, as a lady must. That must have been a challenge.
I recall Shakespeare refers to his other plays in his late plays, but how to find the reference. Doesn't he mention Falstaff in the later history plays? or isn't that the same as Cervantes. Playwrites can get away with mentioning all sorts of extraneous things; we usually don't expect a novelist to make fun of the printer of his earlier novel, for omitting passages, do we?
My apologies to my donkey for calling it a mule. Didn't mean to make an a*s ... of the animal ...
Joan Pearson
August 4, 2006 - 07:32 am
Mippy, is Shakespeare's character of Falstaff the same thing? It's one thing to create a character and then use him again in another play as Shakespeare did...but to introduce new fictional characters claiming to have met another fictional character in another work of fiction ...is it the same thing?
It seems that Shakespeare brought back his knight at the insistance of the Queen and had fourteen days to put it together. "Very shortly after the completion of Henry IV, Part II, Shakespeare wrote The Merry Wives of Windsor (1599), featuring the errant knight in the starring role. What prompted Shakespeare to resurrect Falstaff so soon? Two independent sources confirm that Shakespeare revived Falstaff at the insistence of Queen Elizabeth I, who had been delighted by Falstaff's presence in the Henry IV plays. John Dennis, a literary critic who adapted The Merry Wives of Windsor in 1702, asserted, “I know very well that it hath pleased one of the greatest queens that ever was in the world ... This comedy was written at her command, and by her direction, and she was so eager to see it acted that she commanded it to be finished in fourteen days; and was afterwards, as tradition tells us, very well pleased at the representation." Moreover, Nicholas Rowe, in his Life of Shakespeare (1709), reports that the Queen "was so well pleased with that admirable character of Falstaff in the two parts of Henry IV that she commanded him to continue it for one play more, and to show him in love."
There is evidence in the play itself to corroborate the story documented by Rowe and Dennis. Unlike any of his other dramas, Shakespeare deals exclusively with English society in The Merry Wives, localizing the play at Windsor, and making overt complementary references to Windsor Castle. And Falstaff is the romantic lead, determined to woo the wives of Ford and Page, two gentlemen of Windsor. Falstaff
Amparo is bringing us wonderful illustrations!!!
Did you notice that the lovely huntress is wearing green? Remember hunters and travelers wore green back then, but remember too that Cervantes often used green to illustrate self-deceit. Do you see any reason to believe that these nobles are anything but what they appear to be? I suppose that they are deceiving Don Q. by acting as if he is a noble knight, when they are really laughing at him...
Deems
August 4, 2006 - 08:53 am
Morning all. Grossman translates the Spanish word simply as "donkey" which is I guess what Amparo is saying.
Thank you,
JoanP for the stamp and now for the illustration of the lady in green. I have never gotten over my childhood love of illustrations. Used to stare at some of them for hours. We didn't have Gameboy and all the rest of the hand-held games back then. Heh.
I believe that Cervantes is the first ever to have a character meeting other characters who have read about him in a book. Shakespeare did a number of in-jokes which involved his players. A troop of actors played many parts and so, for example, in
Hamlet, the actor who plays Polonius claims to have played Julius Caesar once. He declares that he was stabbed to death in the Forum. In Shakespeare's day plays didn't run for long periods of time. Instead they were played in much the same way that repertory is now. Actors would have different parts in different plays and have to keep all the lines straight.
But that's not what Cervantes is doing here. He is having a fictional character meet people in Part II of his history who are familiar with Part I.
Somewhere a chapter or two ago, Sancho is calculating just what Don Quixote owes him for his wages. He exaggerates how long they have been together--twenty years. Don Quixote corrects him and says all their adventures have been no more than two months. Thus, there hasn't even been time for a book to have been written and published never mind having been read. It's yet another impossibility.
The stamp Joan P put up is available, along with many other stamps, in the link Amparo provided
Here If you click on "seguiente" at the bottom of the page, and keep doing that, there are some five or six pages here. There are also all sorts of links to follow in the right-hand column. It is a wonderful link and the folks at cervantesvirtual.com are to be praised.
Maryal
judywolfs
August 4, 2006 - 10:23 am
When you said that because DQ and Sancho had been on the road for only 2 months "there hasn't even been time for a book to have been written and published never mind having been read. It's yet another impossibility." I'm not quite sure what you mean - there was a 10 year break between volume 1 and volume 2, wasn't there? During that break, the "fake" DQ book was written. So it seems that of course there would have been time for the Duke and Lady to read all about Quixote and Sancho.
~JudyS
marni0308
August 4, 2006 - 10:48 am
I'm glad we're getting to the part where the duke and duchess herald Don Quixote and his valiant squire Sancho. They and their household go to such extremes of pretense with our gallant heros for their own humor. It's really quite awful.
I'll try to remember the name Rucio. It's not written in my edition and my memory is like mush.
I think that is so neat that Cervantes is on the Spanish euro.
Deems
August 4, 2006 - 11:45 am
Judy--Right, ten years between the publication of the two parts of Don Quixote. True of real time. Plenty of time for many people to have read Part I.
But, from the beginning of Part I when Carrasco comes to talk with DQ, we are given the time he has been recovering from his second salley and it's been a couple of weeks. That is a couple of weeks since he was in that cage on his way home.
Cervantes keeps the action of the novel in fictional time and picks up the action where he left off.
But really ten years have passed.
So there are two time frames--fictional and real. What Cervantes does that so surprises me is he mixes them. In fictional time, which he has been keeping consistent, people could not have read about DQ.
I think I've just made things murkier.
Alas!
judywolfs
August 4, 2006 - 12:04 pm
That doesn't make it murkier, but it gives me something to ponder. Did Cervantes invent the first scifi time warp inside of the first novel? hmmmmm...
At first I thought it was quite harmless that the duke and lady were mocking Don Quixote and Sancho, but it seem to become more cruel as it continues.
~JudyS
judywolfs
August 4, 2006 - 12:09 pm
"Cervantes often used green to illustrate self-deceit." That seems like a very important concept. Did I miss that before? How did we find that out?
~JudyS
Deems
August 4, 2006 - 12:25 pm
Judy--You just said it better than I could:
"Did Cervantes invent the first scifi time warp inside of the first novel? hmmmmm..." (Judy)
Yes, indeedy. That's exactly what I was trying to say. Not being much of a sci-fi reader myself I couldn't think of the language, but that's it. Yes.
Joan Pearson
August 4, 2006 - 02:49 pm
It seems so long ago, Judy, but green was discussed on August first when we were talking about the green silk patch covering the puppeteers face. I googled the colors in Don Quixote and fount -
"Green was a popular color at the time among the wealthy, not the poor. It was especially favored by travellers and hunters. Color was symbolic and much was read into the colors one wore. The Inquisition often made mistakes in judging a person by the color he was wearing. If one had come by certain garments which were Moorish in appearance, style or color, he usually got rid of them as quickly as possible.
So, it wouldn't have been unsual to meet the Man in the Green Coat on the road. One source said that Cervantes did not often describe attire in these volumes, but when he did, all action would halt and attention would be focussed on the garments- and on the wearer. There are said to be eighteen different colors mentioned in Don Q...most often green, tawny and gold.
Cervantes, being Cervantes often wrote of paradox when describing costume. Sort of like - "all that glitters is not gold." Some scholars see Cervantes dressing in green those who may not be what they seem. Much is made of Don Diego de Miranda and his green coat. Scholars see him as a man who is not what he protests to be. They point out that just as we never did get a chance to see the interior of his house, only the exterior, we really never did get to know the man himself. The scholars imply that Don Diego didn't see himself either. The green coat was a symbol of "self-deceit."
I think the operative word here is "SOME" as in "SOME scholars see Cervantes dressing in green those who may not be what they seem." The green patch is a good example of this. Scholars have made a less kindly assessment of the Man in the Green Coat than our group here. I'm betting we will see more of him in the remaining chapters.
The lady in the green dress appears right after the puppeteer with the green patch. If the scholars who say that Cervantes only described costume for a purpose, then maybe the mention of the beautiful lady's dress is not simply describing a huntress' costume.
1amparo
August 4, 2006 - 08:58 pm
Very good arguments presented here. However, the ten years between the two volumes have nothing to do with the continuation of the stories: Dan Brown could very well write “The Da Vinci Code 2” in 20 years time and make the story to continue from the last, as next day for instance.
On those times, and until quite recently, many good books were in fact written as serial stories. What about if Cervantes would had, hypothetically, written and meant the stories of DQ as serials. Would not, then, people (duchess and duke included) had had the time to read let us say; last week’s serial/adventure of chapter/s---???, and await for the next episode/adventure to come?
As I said, it is just a thought.
Amparo
Sat. 5th August. 13.25
hats
August 5, 2006 - 09:11 am
I can not understand why the Duchess just loves every word that falls from Sancho's mouth. She really thinks his witty remarks means he is wise.
Joan Pearson
August 5, 2006 - 09:34 am
Good morning, mis comadres!
Amparo, I'd like to think of these episodes as serials. If only Cervantes hadn't been so specific with the number of days between each one. This volume's episodes seem to flow better into one another, don't they? The fact that the Duke and Duchess read the first volume during the the one month period Don Q. was resting up at home is a bit disarming when you think about it.
I was so taken with the appearance of these fictional characters who had read the book that I didn't even consider the time span. In fact the whole thing now has a fairy-tale feeling that it is difficult to think of such realistic details, isn't it? Maybe Cervantes didn't consider this publishing problem
either!
Hats, I hesitate to say this, but I'm finding the proverbs more understandable, they seem to fit in better than before. Is it me? What does this say about my mental state when I begin to admire the fool?
Here's an example - when the Duchess warns Sancho that Lady Dulcinea would not like to hear him praising the beauty of another woman, Sancho comes up with this proverb, that made sense to me - "Nature is like a potter making clay bowls, and he who makes a handsome bowl can also make two of them, or three, or one hundred..."
When it comes to green< and the Duchess's dress, the color can mean two things - simply that she is a huntress and this is the color commonly worn by hunters...OR that the wearer of the green is deceiving somehow. We already know that the Duchess is both of these...that she and the Duke are pretending to be overcome with awe and respect for their guests.
Hats, do you think she's pretending to enjoy Sancho's wise remarks? He certainly seems more animated and interesting than Don Q. right now.
Did you notice that Don Q. was given green garments to wear to the dinner table? A jaunty little green cap too. Here's another example of someone who is really not what he proports to be. He's not a true knight...and yet he is now feeling that maybe, just maybe he is - from the royal treatment he is being given. Does this mean that there have been times that he's had doubts?
hats
August 5, 2006 - 09:40 am
JoanP, I do feel the Duchess is pasting the flattery on rather thickly. Her words lack sincerity. Really, at this point, Sancho is giving me a headache. I think he is talking too much. I thought Sancho a bit nervy to ask or tell the duenna to go out and take care of his mount. As the tv commercial says about children at times, I think Sancho needs a munchie.
Mippy
August 5, 2006 - 01:39 pm
To go back to whether the episodes could have been separate publications, I'm sure someone pointed out weeks ago that the readership would not have had magazines to read. Dickens, for example, was so much later that by then, the reading public had ready access to serial publications in magazines. Isn't that correct?
As far as the Duchess and Duke, their continuing to make fun of DQ begins to be annoying. I'm sure glad all of you are keeping me going on my donkey through these episodes, or I might fall out of line, and be tempted to skip ahead. Yes, indeed, they did place DQ at the head table, but they were laughing at him all the while.
Poor DQ.
Joan Pearson
August 5, 2006 - 04:41 pm
- Hats, methinks this has all gone to Sancho's head. Notice that he joins the foursome in conversation on the way back to the castle. With such an audience, he talks even more than he usually does!
I have a bookmark somewhere with a quote from one of Shakespeare's plays - actually I gave it to Bruce a while back. "Men of few words are the best men"
The Duchess seems to be commenting on Shakespeare's observation when she says "you really can't be amusing and be a man of very few words."
I'm not sure about Sancho and his professed feelings for his "friend," At the beginning of this chapter, following the episode with the flour mill workers, he is ready to sneak off without even saying goodbye. Do you notice that? So much for his concern about Don Q's safety. It is only the meeting with the Duke and Duchess and the invitation to come to the castle that he changes his mind as his prospects look up.
If not for the money, and the promise of governing an island, would he stick it out with Don Q. to protect him?
Mippy, I can't tell who is more exasperated at the charade, you or the priest! hahaha - except the priest has good reason because he isn't in on the fun and thinks the Duke and Duchess are serious in their admiration for the Don!
Deems
August 5, 2006 - 06:57 pm
Ola mis comadres, apologies for being so late today. Something has gone a little off in my left hip and I spent time exercising it at the mall. I think it's from the breast stroke I've been doing at the pool. I gave up the breast stroke (my favorite) for a while because of hip problems, but tried it again several times this week. Bad idea. The hip hurts when I first get up and start walking and then usually I can get it to click in and walk but it goes out again next time.
Anyway, I'm sorry, and I promise to catch up on the two chapters I haven't read yet.
Mippy--That was me that pointed out that serialization didn't come around for another couple hundred years although amparo's idea is certainly a practical explanation.
I think though that all this time distortion on the part of Cervantes is absolutely intentional because as Joan P says, he goes to such trouble to have DQ give us the precise time--and more than once. Cervantes is playing with time, giving us an impossibility and saying Deal with It--anything can happen in fiction.
Of course it couldn't, not at the time--Cervantes is the forerunner of so much experimentation that will follow, some of it not until the 20th century. He anticipates what will come. He was way ahead of his time, a genuine creative genius. Always remarkable people.
Remember the part back in the beginning of Part II when DQ is awaiting the visit of the bachelor Carrasco and "could not persuade himself that such a history existed, for the blood of the enemies he had slain was not yet dry on the blade of his sword and his chivalric exploits were already in print" (beginning of Chap 3) as well as Sancho's statement that although he would like to forget the beatings he has gotten, "the welts won't let me, because they're still fresh on my ribs." (also in Chap 3)
Somewhere else, in Chap 1, I think, we are told that the priest and barber have left DQ alone for "almost a month" so that he could heal from his delusions.
Maryal
hats
August 6, 2006 - 01:02 am
Maryal, be very careful. I am thinking about you. You can trust the class not to be disorderly. The hip comes first.
JoanP, I think we must keep our eye on Sancho. I think his mouth is going to lead to the next MISadventure.
Joan Pearson
August 6, 2006 - 05:28 am
Good morning, mis comadres -
We're off to an early start today - hope you are enjoying improved weather conditions heat-wise as we are here in the DC area! What a summer! Maryal, isn't it interesting the way the body is wired? There's something about the breast stroke that annoys the hip! I'm thinking that you don't want to annoy the hip, so you must eschew the breast stroke in the future. I think Andy is home (at last) and she'll be along to caution you in more professional terminology!
I agree, Maryal - when Cervantes gives us precise times...and precise colors he is doing that for a reason and we should be noting these details. When he puts that green cap on Don Q., he is emphasizing the fact that Don Q. is something other than what he seems. That he is NOT really a knight? We all knew that, didn't we? I think the question here is - Does Don Q. know that he is not a knight, but rather that he is trying to be one, by acting like one.
He's so afraid that Sancho will act like a fool - "Can't you understand, you miserable wretch, that if they take you for a vulgar peasant, or a laughable fool, they're going to take me for a fraud, a make-believe knight?"
But of course that is exactly what's happening isn't it, Hats? Sancho continued to mouth off, entertaining the assembled with his story of the nobleman insisting the farmer take the seat of honor, just after the duke had gone through the same motion of insisting that Don Q. sit at the head of the dinner table. Don Q. is furious, feeling that those who have treated him with such respect will now think him a fraud. Does he feel in his heart that he's a fraud?
I think the most telling line in the whole chapter was when the ladies in waiting draped the red cape over him in the courtyard at his arrival, sprinkling him with perfumed water ..."this was the FIRST TIME he was ever fully convinced that he was a real rather than somehow an imaginary knight-errant."
It is curious that the priest and Sancho are the only two who tell things as they are - Sancho, that his master is crazy, the priest that Sancho is either a fool or a liar. Chapter 32 might be the most revealing chapter in the book so far. Don Quixote calmly, though furious, addresses the priest's accusations and his order to go home. Then the Duke and the Duchess pepper him with questions to which he gives thoughtful answers.
I'd be interested to hear if you learned anything new that you didn't know before from Don Q's frank explanations in Chapter 32... Have a super Sunday, all!
Deems
August 6, 2006 - 10:16 am
just lots of walking. Hip is somewhat improved after yesterday's long mall walk. The good thing about malls is that they are air conditioned and flat. The bad thing is that they have all manner of stores to lure people in.
It's been a while since I've been to Brookstone where they have all manner of electronic devices and chairs with built-in massagers. Couldn't try out the chairs since they were continuously occupied, but I found a little speaker for my iPod and some "complete ecosystems" which are little glass containers with a small piece of organic green something, water, two tiny fish (looked like guppies) and a tiny shrimp or two. Apparently the whole thing is ecologically balanced. No need to feed anything and the water never gets dirty.
My daughter, always the realist, said something to the effect of "But they'll die, won't they?" She began feeling sorry for the microscopically small fish whose whole life would be lived in this ecosystem.
**************** Digression complete ******************
I have finished the chapters. Today will confine myself to events in Chap 31 to give everyone a chance to have their own responses to Chap 32.
Joan P has already remarked on Don Quixote's recognition of himself as a true knight errant because of the hospitality offered by the Duke and Duchess. Here's Grossman's translation of that sentence:
"And all, or most of them, sprinkled flagons of perfumed water on Don Quixote and on the duke and duchess, all of which astounded Don Quixote, and this was the first day he really knew and believed he was a true knight errant and not a fantastic one, for he saw himself treated in the same manner in which, he had read, knights were treated in past ages."
I also very much admire the passage describing Sancho's interaction with the "reverend duenna" and the instructions he gives her for tending to his donkey. She is, naturally enough, highly offended and tells him "You won't get anything but a fig from me." Grossman's footnote describes the contemptuous gesture "made by placing the thumb between the forefinger and middle finger or under the upper front teeth."
Shakepeare makes a number of references to this gesture (the fig) which continues in modern Europe. It is roughly the equivalent of our middle finger being held up, back of the hand toward the person to be insulted. Sancho turns it back on the duenna saying he'll accept as long as it's nice and ripe, using the other meaning of fig, and perhaps incorporating the obscene side of the fig as well.
Also there's the matter of the "somber ecclesiastic" who lives with the Duke and Duchess. He of course, like DQ's priest at home, does not approve of the Duke reading about DQ and his adventures.
It is interesting how close to the line Cervantes walks here, pointing out clearly that ecclesiatics who have been locked up in schools for most of their days know little about life. He also insults him by suggesting that like a woman, a cleric has only his tongue to use as a weapon. (I continually remind myself of the Inquisition and the risks Cervantes took--and what an advantage it was to have his hero be a madman.)
The funniest bit for me in Chap 31 is Sancho's extended story about the nobleman who invites a farmer to dinner and who will sit at the head of the table. I love the digressions, the suggestion that he will never get to the point of the story and then the wonderful ending. The nobleman, in disgust, orders the farmer to sit down and then announces that wherever he (the nobleman) sits will automatically be the head of the table.
Happy Sunday from me too. I am off to walk and walk and walk.
Maryal
hats
August 6, 2006 - 11:25 am
Maryal, your daughter's thoughts are my thoughts.
"My daughter, always the realist, said something to the effect of "But they'll die, won't they?" She began feeling sorry for the microscopically small fish whose whole life would be lived in this ecosystem."
Mippy
August 6, 2006 - 02:46 pm
Thanks for the reminder to keep on the trail, but I have had lots of company and cannot switch gears to post. But I did read the chapters. See you tomorrow, after I digest the dinner with the duke and duchess!
hats
August 7, 2006 - 01:50 am
JoanP, there is a lot going on in chapter xxxii. I have been thinking about your earlier question. That's a hard question. I am still thinking.
The washing of the beard struck me as funny. Then, I became angry at the "trickster maidens." I don't like the fact that they are making a simpleton of Don Q. Really, Don Q is so gentle. He just wants to make the world a safe haven for everybody. His motives are pure whether he is mad or not. Why can't people hear him as he tells about his quest? Do our actions speak louder than our words?
Really, I don't care for of these people, the Duchess, the Duke or the servants. Why did the Duke promise Sancho a governorship? Are these people just having a time of entertainment at the expense of Sancho and Don Q?
Mippy
August 7, 2006 - 07:07 am
Hats ~
I agree with you, and dislike the way they are making fun of both DQ and poor Sancho.
The only point on which I'm not exactly in agreement is whether or not DQ is gentle. He seems to beat up his opponents, or try to, in certain episodes more than in others.
In this chapter, it's hard for me even to enjoy the humor, as the duke/duchess hosts are quite mean to him.
Apparently DQ has never seen the so-called real Dulcinea, and Sancho has only seen a peasant girl who he designated as Dulcinea, when his failure to find her was about to trip him up with his master.
Do remind me, amigas, is there even a real Dulcinea at all?
Joan Pearson
August 7, 2006 - 07:28 am
Good morning, Hats - and Mippy, happy to see you back on the trail with us. Traudee writes that she has gone ahead, but is having some trouble posting. Hopefully the technical glitches will be straightened out before long. I feel concerned when any of you gets lost or falls off the trail, there being so many evil enchanters on the road!
Traudee sent along these thoughts, which I'll post for her this morning -
" Our poor Don seems farther away from reality than ever. He was downcast a few chapters ago but the blatantly false flattery of the Duke and Duchess reinforces everything he believed and has asserted all along.
The Duke and Duchess tell him they read the first volume, so they know how in chapter I DQ decided to become a knight errant, then thought up an appropriate name, and thereafter created a lady, Dulcinea, in whose service he would perform great deeds. They already know the answers to their detailed questions. They have huge fun at his expense and use him like a court jester. Their (and the staff's) treatment of the Don and his squire borders on cruelty.
It seems to me that the Duke and Duchess are just two more people who try to disabuse the Don of his notions on knight errantry - beginning with his friends at home, the barber and the priest, and countless others. Except that they feign to believe him and treat him with highest honors. It is an incredible charade.
.
Oh, I feel the same way the rest of you do. I squirm reading of the flattery - knowing that they know the truth of what happened in the episodes in Volume I. They know because they read what Sidi Hamete Benengeli had written. (and we've already been informed that he's a liar, all Moors liars, remember? How accurate is Benengeli's account of what really happened?) Poor Don Q. knows there is this published version - but he's only heard from Sanson Carasco that it is a flattering story of his deeds. He has no one in his life who will tell him the truth - except Sancho and he doesn't believe Sancho. Nor does he believe the priest, who tells him he's a lunatic.
It's sad to see Don Q. so earnestly try to answer the questions the Duke and Duchess put to him. He seems to be searching his soul for the answers and all the while they are "laughing up their sleeves (green) at him!
judywolfs
August 7, 2006 - 07:34 am
Joan (Pearson) I’m so glad you posted (?again) the analysis of the green clothing. I somehow missed that information earlier this month. I became fascinated with the questions about the significance of green, and I’ve been very, very interested to hear our group’s ideas and findings. Strangely, I have zero recollection of that part, so before I trot my dear weary little burro backwards to take another look at those posts, I just wanted to say thanks.
I think the Duke and Dutchess are truly thrilled to have real-life celebrity comedians visiting them in person! The book they read was apparently looked upon as the most rollicking, hilarious, funny thing ever written, so they expect their mock respect for DQ, and elaborate preparations to carry off their charade will be even funnier than the book, and they’ll become the envy of everybody in the neighborhood. I think they’re putting on something akin to what was known as “street theater” back in the Hippie days.
~JudyS
hats
August 7, 2006 - 07:35 am
I am glad to see Traude's post. I agree with Traude's whole post. These are words from her post.
"Their (and the staff's) treatment of the Don and his squire borders on cruelty."
The chapter made me feel very uncomfortable.
Joan Pearson
August 7, 2006 - 07:49 am
Hello, Judy! Good to see you and your mule donkey on the trail. Yes, the Duke and Duchess do seem to be hosting live entertainment for their dinner guests - at this obviously unstable man's expense. I'm uncomfortable too, Hats - even the beard washing scene was tainted - they were all having a gay time watching him try to accommodate himself to his host's "custom". The whole staff of servants are in on the joke and having a rollicking good time making him a buffoon.
I was really interested in Don Q's answers to some of the questions the Duke and Duchess put to him. Mippy, it appears that Don Q. was not being truthful when he answered the question about ever having met Dulcinea. I wonder why??? This from the opening Chapter in Volume I - "... he had thought of some one to call his
Lady! There was, so the story goes, in a village near his own a very
good-looking farm-girl with whom he had been at one time in love,
though, so far as is known, she never knew it nor gave a thought to
the matter. Her name was Aldonza Lorenzo, and upon her he thought
fit to confer the title of Lady of his Thoughts; and after some search
for a name which should not be out of harmony with her own, and should
suggest and indicate that of a princess and great lady, he decided
upon calling her Dulcinea del Toboso -she being of El Toboso- a name,
to his mind, musical, uncommon, and significant, like all those he had
already bestowed upon himself and the things belonging to him."
judywolfs
August 7, 2006 - 10:11 am
Maybe I’m a little hard hearted, but I just can’t seem to summon up any sympathy for the microscopic fish in the ecosystem.
I'm with you, Mippy and Hats, I can't stand that phony dutchess. Despite his delusions, Don Quixote is quite smart. Despite being naive, Sancho is far from dumb. So Why don't they KNOW they're being mocked?
~JudyS
marni0308
August 7, 2006 - 10:38 am
I've been gone for the weekend, but have not gotten lost along the trail. We took advantage of the change in weather - YAY!!!! Sat. afternoon we took a picnic dinner to a town park and watched an outdoor performance of "A Midsummer Night's Dream." It certainly fit right in with Don Quixote! I had completely forgotten that the "play within the play" - the one that Bottom and his group of tradesmen performed before the Duke - was "Pyramus and Thisbe"!
Then yesterday we put the top of our Jeep Wrangler down and went for a 3-hour joy-ride up into the Berkshires in southwestern Mass. Today it's getting hot and humid again. Bummer. But back to the Don....
Judy: You are so right about the Duke and Duchess' "elaborate preparations" to amuse themselves and friends by making bigger fools of Sancho and the Don. It seems they have spared no expense to have a good time. Plans must certainly have been made in advance because so many members involved in their charades had to memorize parts to play. It does seem very cruel, but it does strike me as something the very rich and bored might do to find amusement.
Marni
Joan Pearson
August 7, 2006 - 05:00 pm
Marni - thank you! I had forgotten all about the play within a play in Midsummer Night's Dream! Wasn't one of the characters in the play actually named "Wall"? Remember now the wall through which Pyramus and Thisbe whispered to one another. Shakespeare turned this tragedy into a comic skit in Midsummer Night! You must have perked right up at that. Don't you LOVE it when this happens, when you start noticing such Interconnections. Both Cervantes and Shakespeare, writing at the same time incorporating this old fable into their works...both making it into something other than it was.
Judy, I think Don Quixote still trusts what Sanson Carasco told him...that the first volume, the one the Duke and Duchess read, is full of his accomplishments as a knight errant. So, he is ready to believe that these "readers" have the same impression of him. Their behavior with the lavish reception suggests that they didn't read anything too denigrating about him.
But Sancho...knows, doesn't he? Remember when his turn came for the beard washing "seerimonies"? He said something like - "it looks like they're having fun rather then taking care of their guests." I think he gets it! But he will sit at the table, eat, drink and enjoy himself at the hosts' expense...
Deems
August 7, 2006 - 05:17 pm
Well it seems the rest of us are not enjoying ourselves as much as the Duke and Duchess. It seems we do not like humor when it is cruel. I thought the hardest thing to take was the attempt to shave Sancho with serving men doing the work instead of the wenches complete with dirty water, dirty cloths, and much mocking. At least Sancho escaped.
And the Duke, so as not to alert DQ to the fact that beard washing isn't really the custom of his country, did have his own beard sudsed up and washed. This would be one reason that DQ doesn't catch on that he is the butt of the jokes.
As for that cleric, he is described at the kind of ecclesiastic who has spent his formative years being groomed and that all the pleasure he takes in life is telling those who have so much more than he does how morally corrupt they are. He has already tried to get the Duke to stop reading the book about DQ, with no success.
Joan P, don't you think that Cervantes was clever to hide behind Cide Hamete as well as the translator--and even beyond them behind the strange madness of DQ and all the humor? Had he written a serious criticism of self-righteous clergy, do you think he would have escaped the Inquisition?
It's just astonishing how one can hide behind madness and comedy. Remember King Lear and his "all-licensed" fool? Only the fool could speak truth to Lear without fearing for his life. And the fool spoke in riddles while telling Lear the mistakes he was making.
Perhaps DQ and Sancho fall for all this mockery because they have been well entertained at the house of the man with the green jacket?
One thing this chapter gives Cervantes is the opportunity to remind the reader that DQ has never actually seen Dulcinea as well as allowing him to retell the story of the enchantment Dulcinea is under.
And one last thing, DQ shows how much he cares for Sancho:
On the other hand, I want your lordship and ladyship to understand that Sancho Panza is one of the most amusing squires who ever served a knight errant; at times his simpleness is so clever that deciding if he is simple or clever is a cause of no small pleasure; his slyness condemns him for a rogue, and his thoughtlessness confirms him as a simpleton; he dobuts everything, and he believes everything; when I think that he is about to plunge headlong into foolishness, he comes out with perceptions that raise him to the skies. In short, I would not trade him for any other squire even if I were given a city to do so.
Deems
August 7, 2006 - 05:19 pm
Joan P--Good observation. I had forgotten how the bachelor told DQ that the book was full of his accomplishments as a knight. That's another piece of evidence for why he misses the mockery.
marni0308
August 7, 2006 - 09:31 pm
JoanP: Yes, there is a character "Wall" in "A Midsummer Night's Dream" in the play within a play "Pyramus and Thisbe." It was hysterical! The Duke and Duchess made fun of the tradesmen as they performed the play like the Duke and Duchess made fun of Sancho and the Don in Don Quixote.
The version we watched was very different from anything I've ever seen. It was outside, performed in daylight, and the actors carried scrolls with their lines to read from. They had a promptor who explained in the beginning that this was how actors had really performed in the time of Shakespeare. They had so many plays to act in that there was no way they'd be able to memorize all of their lines. So they had scrolls with their own words and the promptor would read aloud their lines if they didn't say a line on time or lost their place. The promptor was kind of like one of the actors. Very interesting. I was startled at first - it was like going to a play where they didn't know the play. But you quickly got used to it and it was really fun.
hats
August 8, 2006 - 07:05 am
In chapter xxxii Sancho says he loves Don Q very much. I believe Sancho does love Don Q.
Mippy
August 8, 2006 - 07:47 am
I just noticed the question above: will the Duke grant Sancho an insula.
Ha, ha, right, sure! Having never read DQ before, I'm merely guessing that this Duke is full of hot air and will never grant Sancho anything at all!
I love your discussion of Midsummer Night's Dream, Marni and others!
It's a hard play to do well, and that version sounds so whimsical!
The play-within-a-play, used in more than one play, is one the neatest tricks up the (green)sleeve of Wm. S.
Joan Pearson
August 8, 2006 - 07:53 am
Good morning, mis comadres! Good to see you back on the trail.
I love these two chapters, 32 and 33, because we are finally hearing directly from Don Quixote and Sancho about things we've only been able to infer from their actions. We've had a lot of interpreting to do. I imagine the Inquisition officials had to do this too. Cervantes can be obtuse when he wants to be. Yes, Maryal - he really was clever hiding behind Cidi Hamete (a Moor) when he criticized the clergy. Had he not, I don't think he would have escaped censure, even with his friend, the Archbishop in his corner!
I'm not sure about this, though, Maryal - One thing this chapter gives Cervantes is the opportunity to remind the reader that DQ has never actually seen Dulcinea." He did tell us in the opening chapter that he used to be in love with "the very beautiful" Aldonza Lorenzo (Dulcinea) many years before - but that she didn't know he existed.
Marni - there have been times I've had a negative reaction to tinkering with Shakespeare's settings.. this modernization seems very popular right now. But the production you saw sounds wonderful. Using the scrolls of script as they did in Shakespeare's time - valid and wonderful. I think that Shakespeare himself was using the same witty creativity when he had the actor play the part of a wall too! Creativity and humor, what a combination! I think that's what we are getting here in Cervantes' work!
Maryal brings us a passage in which we learn what Don Quixote really feels about his squire. Remember wondering whether he would have paid off Sancho to go home if Sancho would have taken the money? He seemed not to care - a fig. (more on the "fig" coming up)...
Now we know for sure that he would not trade him for another squire, though sometimes he is prone to foolishness.
I've been on the fence about Sancho - especially when he would talk about sneaking off without saying goodbye. It seemed the only reason he was sticking around was the promise of the island.
Hats, I think you've always believed in Sancho's love for Don Q. Read on - in Chapter 33, the duchess has a heart to heart with Sancho, and suggests that perhaps he is not fit to govern an island. You'll be surprised, I think, at his response to her comment.
Amparo - a Spanish translation request, please? In chapter 33, Sancho tells the Duchess that all the stuff that he made Don Quixote believe about Dulcinea is not truer than
"the cow jumping over the moon."
I'm interested to know if this is the exact Spanish translation or if the translator (Burton Raffel) is not taking liberties again. How old is that cow jumping over the moon...of Hey Diddle Diddle, I wonder.
Talk to you later. I'm really loving this!
Mippy - Just now spotted your post. I am really puzzled over this Duke and his Duchess dressed in greenery. Obviously they have money or they wouldn't be able to afford the castle, staff and amusements. How much $$$? Do they have islands at their disposal? WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE! I think it's a trick and am willing to sit back and watch Cervantes spin his way out of this somehow.
Mippy
August 8, 2006 - 09:08 am
In case anyone is interested (Amparo already posted!) there is a Q & A session going on today (Tuesday) on the October SeniorNet conference. In the header, Click on Discussions, then 20th Anniversary Conference.
hats
August 8, 2006 - 09:12 am
Mippy thank you.
Deems
August 8, 2006 - 11:54 am
Joan P--I think you're referring to this?
"I can dare to make him believe anything, even if it makes no sense, like that reply to his letter, or something that happened six or eight days ago that isn't in the history yet, I mean the enchanntment of Senora Dona Dulcinea, because I've made him think she's enchanted, and that's as true as a fairy tale."
That's the closest I can find to the "the cow jumping over the moon." Is that it?
Chap 33 shows us how very popular a character Sancho has become. First we had that chapter (possibly apocryphal according to the author) with Sancho and his wife in conversation. Now Sancho gets another chapter all to himself.
Remember the bachelor telling Sancho that he is "the second person in the history, and there are some who would rather hear you talk than the cleverest person in it, though there are also some who say you were much too credulous when you believed that the governorship of the insula. . .could be true."
That pretty much sums up my take on Sancho. On the one hand, at least in Part II, he is very clever; on the other hand he still has some sort of belief that he might get an insula to govern. But who among us is consistent? I know I'm not.
Maryal
Deems
August 8, 2006 - 11:58 am
I do hope Joan will go into some detail about figs. Have any of you ever noticed what the inside of a ripe fig looks like? A colleague of mine brought me one from his garden a year or so ago and pointed out why the fig especially was chosen for the obscene gesture.
Joan Pearson
August 8, 2006 - 12:43 pm
Oh, dear, the cow jumping over the moon - is this Burton Raffel again? Poor Amparo - you'll NEVER find the reference if you look for cow and moon. I was so thrilled when I saw it in the Raffel translation - to think that this familiar childhood image was THAT OLD!
Yes, yes, - the obscene gesture. I must find that before commenting. Oh my, do you really think it is Raffel again. Let me find it! (From the description it sounded like the gesture made by one of the Chief Justices reecently!)
Joan Pearson
August 8, 2006 - 01:38 pm
I checked the fig reference...Chapter 31 when Sancho is having it out with one of the ladies in waiting she says to him..."keep your stupid jokes where they belong and where they'll gladly pay for you performing them, because all you're going to get from me is a fig."
Raffel's footnote - "To give someone a fig in modern English, is to five someone the finger."
I googled the expression and got this..
"In Great Britian, to give someone "the fig" consisted "in thrusting the thumb between two of the closed fingers or into the mouth" and was considered a contemptious gesture."
It doesn't sound as if this lady in waiting got the memo to flatter Sancho.
Deems
August 8, 2006 - 02:15 pm
Joan P,
I think Sancho missed that memo. The obscene gesture of thumb between fingers is pretty much parallel to our third finger one, but there's another dimension to the fact that it's call the "fig."
Traude S
August 8, 2006 - 03:16 pm
In these chapters Cervantes reports what the super rich did for entertainment in the 16th century. The Duke and Duchess (at whose ages we can only guess) are eminently able to afford the immense amounts of money it must have cost to produce the "trickery" (very much a euphemism) visited on DQ and Sancho.
Cervantes again juxtaposes illusion and reality, just as he did in the confrontations between DQ and Sansón Carrasco and the puppeteer, for example.
The infinite details of the scenery so lovingly described, the garments of the participants down to the rare, hence costly materials used to make them, and the imagination of the master planner, Cervanters himself, are mind-boggling. But there are also clear elements of malice aforethought in the planning, as we will soon see.
Why did the duke laugh when the priest was infuriated by the Don's talks?
It must have been his sense of humor. What other explanation is there?
But how strange, how very sad to derive such enormous pleasure (even gratification) just from making fun of people, humiliating them, openly correcting their speech (as the duchess does with Sancho), and undermining their dignity in the presence of others !
DEEMS is correct. The meaning of "fig" is much more explicit than the "finger". In Italian the word is il fico, masculine, for both the fruit and the tree. To use the (non-existent) feminine (as some men will naughtily do) is a definite no-no. The reference is to the vagina.
Deems
August 8, 2006 - 03:53 pm
Welcome back, Traude!! Good to see you again. We have missed you. Also, you provide the other essential fact about the "fig."
Here's an experiment anyone with a ripe fig can perform. Take a knife slice the fruit in half and you will discover colors that distinctly resemble the vagina. As Traude has just written.
Traude S
August 8, 2006 - 06:45 pm
MARYAL, I did not mean to keep you "hanging" but have read along faithfully. Yet I'm recovering much too slowly from injuries sustained in a car accident on Jul 20. My sprained wrist is still uncooperative and painful.
In Italy figs are a staple way into late fall. They are bright green outside and deep red inside; not too sweet, simply delicious.
I tasted the best by far many years ago in Naples. Two friends and I had come down to Naples for the weekend, hoping to take the boat to the island of Capri (accent on the first syllable). We were playing hookie from our studies and had not factored in the possibility of adverse weather.
It was November, the sea was stormy, and the boat could not return from the island for an entire week. We nearly ran out of money. Our main meal of the day consisted of figs, goat cheese and one hundred grams of bread, the daily ration (it was war). Sweet memories.
Deems
August 8, 2006 - 07:02 pm
Traude--I do hope that your wrist feels better very soon. I'm sure that typing isn't good for it. My wrists are OK, but the knees are another matter. Big advantage though is that knees are not used on the computer. Or at least not by me.
Maryal
marni0308
August 8, 2006 - 07:44 pm
Traude: I hope you feel better.
This fig business is putting me in hysterics. I totally missed this when I read that section. Then again, I've never seen a fresh fig. I've only seen dried ones. Now I know what I've missed! Where would one even find a fresh fig?
marni0308
August 8, 2006 - 07:47 pm
Now my husband is really interested in looking at a fresh fig.
1amparo
August 8, 2006 - 08:01 pm
Heavens! What a “lost in translation” will do. OK. In Spanish, as it was intended, higa means in accordance to RAE:
1) “dije de azabache o coral para librarse del mal de ojo.”
2) “burla o desprecio.” = In English: 1) charm/ trinket /jem of jet or coral to fend off the evil eye. 2) mockery or scorn, comtempt.
I call figs the fruit of the Gods, they are my favourite fruit. Mediterranean’s love figs. Late last year when I was in South Spain, outside the police station in Torremolinos there was this fig-tree with what it must have been the very last of the season’s figs. I was with friends and I said to them: “I go to jail but those 3 figs are mine”. And I picked and share them with one of my friends. Delicious!!
Chapter 33: "the cow jumping over the moon." / “that's as true as a fairy tale."
This is what Sancho says:
… “una cosa tan fuera de todo termino” = “such thing so out of proportion”.
Chapter 33 has Sancho speaking nothing but proverbs; one after the other, and all making sense and relevant to what he is saying!
Mippy will the Duke grant Sancho an insula.
Ha, ha, right, sure! Having never read DQ before, I'm merely guessing that this Duke is full of hot air and will never grant Sancho anything at all! You’ll be surprised! Keep on reading; you are very soon to find out.
Amparo
1amparo
August 8, 2006 - 08:46 pm
That, not so silly Sancho, really meant #1 for with this; Sancho very ingenious and subtle, calls the old Doña Rodriguez a witch!
But. Oh boy! Have I learnt about English innuendo!
Deems
August 8, 2006 - 09:07 pm
marni--Well, as for fig trees, my colleague has one in his back yard in
Annapolis. I think they require warmish weather. Tell your husband that if he looks hard enough, he will find one.
marni0308
August 8, 2006 - 09:34 pm
I'll tell him.
JoanK
August 9, 2006 - 04:33 am
When I was a child we had a fig plant in our yard. Unfortunately, it was a male. Our neighbors, who had a female, got all the figs. It made my mother furious: she thought the neighbors should have shared with us, since without our plant, there would have been no fruit. But they never did. So I don't know if I've ever had a fresh fig!
hats
August 9, 2006 - 06:19 am
My dad loved Fig Newtons with milk. Yuck! I hated that almost soft middle in the cookie, the mashed up fig.
I keep reading hoping Don Q and Sancho will leave the Duchess and Duke's estate.
Joan Pearson
August 9, 2006 - 07:24 am
Good morning, mis comadres!
Amparo - we've kept you searching for figs and cows jumping over the moon - and find that our translators (is it just Raffel?) have been creative again, inserting the little misleading parallels that do not exist in Cervantes' work. You'll have to admit they lead to interesting side discussions - but you must see just how important it is that you are here to guide us!!! Is the Spanish edition you are reading the original Spanish that Cervantes wrote? I guess I'm trying to ask you if Cervantes' Spanish is the same as modern Spanish. Thank you SO much for spending your time with us! -
I was most disappointed at the "cat and the fiddle" thinking that the source may have been Cervantes, at least a little ditty sung during his time. A google search revealed something interesting. It was a ditty sung at this time, but NOT in Spain. Shakespeare included "High or Hey Diddle Diddle" in several of his plays (one was Taming of the Shrew) and the verse itself concerned Elizabeth and her affair with Robert Dudley -
"It is likely that this poem is a satire of a scandal during the time of Queen Elizabeth I. The cat is Elizabeth I and the dog is Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester, whom she once referred to as her 'lap dog'. Hey Diddle Diddle
I wonder if Cervantes ever heard of this?
Will be right back...happy to see you on the trail this morning,
Traudee!
marni0308
August 9, 2006 - 07:50 am
JoanP: I don't get it. How does the rhyme have to do with Dudley if he were the queen's lap dog. There's no dog in the rhyme. Hmmmm.
Thinking about the affair between Elizabeth and Dudley always makes me chuckle when I think of the excavation of his castle - they found condoms in what would have been a lavatory.
Joan Pearson
August 9, 2006 - 07:53 am
Hats, I wish they'd leave too - but it seems the Duchess and her Duke have another plot up their green sleeves before they are through with Don Q. and his squire. I don't think it is mere entertainment either. I worry for our friends.
I didn't think that Sancho was being a faithful squire as he laughed with the duchess and her ladies telling them his master was out of his mind, a real lunatic. Was he trying to impress them when he bragged about how he had tricked his master into believing that the ugly peasant girl was his Dulcinea under a spell?
But I must say I smiled to hear Sancho say that he would be just fine without the island when the Duchess tried to get him to admit that he might not be suited to governing if he is such an idiot to follow Don Quixote....
He's soooo gullible! The Duchess is able to persuade him that he really didn't enchant the peasant girl...but that she was really Dulcinea and he, Sancho was under a spell when he saw her as a peasant girl! At least he needn't feel guilty about that anymore!
Traudee yes, I think the Duke laughed at the priest's anger because the priest wan't in on the hoax and thought the assembled were really believing Don Quixote and that Sancho had really been granted an island. It seems that the rich did not take the clergy seriously at this time, doesn't it? The Duke is enjoying his priest's anger as much as he's enjoying Don Quixote's naiveté. The idle rich seem to be the object of Cervantes scorn.
Shall we move forward to Chapter 34 to learn more of the "malice aforethought" Traudee suggests? I see more than amusement to fill a summer afternoon here. There has to be another reason for the elaborate planning. Am dying to find out.
I think we need to add figs to our menu of wine, manchego cheese and what else? Traudee, your picnic on the Isle of Capri sounds heavenly. What a memory you will always have with you! JoanK, as our fig expert, I have to ask you - are all figs female? Where do male fig trees come from?
hats
August 9, 2006 - 07:55 am
I have a sketch in the Dore. I am ashamed to admit the sketch doesn't fit any of the stories in the book that I can remember(1, 49). I need help identifying this Dore sketch. Please.
Aren't the Duchess and Duke just fooling Sancho about the gift of an insula? I didn't like it when Sancho sat down and gabbed about Don Q's wayward mind either.
Deems
August 9, 2006 - 08:00 am
Hey diddle diddle
The cat and the fiddle,
The cow jumped over the moon;
The little dog laughed
To see such sport,
And the dish ran away with the spoon.
marni--check out line 4. See doggie? Laughed about the condoms. Weren't they made of some animal product (sheepskin?) at the time??
More later. Have to go walk and get all sweaty. Actually the weather around here has turned nice--or better than it was.
Maryal
marni0308
August 9, 2006 - 08:07 am
Oh, sheesh, like the cow jumped over the moon, I jumped over that line.
Yup, sheepskin or lambskin condoms with pink ribbons for the lady to tie.
hats
August 9, 2006 - 08:08 am
I jumped over it too. I'm lost.
Joan Pearson
August 9, 2006 - 08:09 am
Hats, I don't have the book of Dore's illustrations...I wish I did. Marni does, I think. If you click the link to Dore's illustrations in the heading you will see that they are organized by the chapters...scroll down to volume II chapter 32 and you will see this one - it only has a question mark next to it - indicating the editor of the illustrations didn't know either. Is this the one you are looking at?
Joan Pearson
August 9, 2006 - 08:21 am
Marnie, you found the dog...the Queen's lap dog - he didn't run away with the spoon...here's more
It was probably during her childhood that Queen Elizabeth I enjoyed teasing her ministers. Some claimed that it was similar to the way a cat plays with mice. The Queen enjoyed dancing to fiddle music.
Moon and Lap-Dog were nicknames for two of her advisors.
Spoon was the nickname of a lady in waiting. Spoon was also a taster who sampled the Queen's food before she ate.
Dish was the nickname of the count who brought the Queen's food to her.
Dish and Spoon eloped. Yes, the Dish did run away with the Spoon. Dish and Spoon
Hats, I don't think they have the isle to give to Sancho, either, but right now we are in Cervantes' hands...we need to keep reading for answers. Don't know who they are or why they are going through such an elaborate scheme just to amuse themselves.
Deems
August 9, 2006 - 08:32 am
Hats--Don't worry. I'm a little lost myself. Raffel used the cow jumping over the moon line from Hey Diddle Diddle, in the place where Grossman used "fairytale" and Amparo tells us that neither is a literal translation.
soooooo--We're all playing with the nursury rhyme that goes back to the time of Shakespeare (same time as Cervantes, wrong country) and discussing condoms with PINK RIBBONS. WHY do those pink ribbons make me laugh so hard?????
And now we have to worry about Q. Elizabeth's strange nicknames for her courtiers.
But it does make that nursery rhyme more intelligible. Thanks, Joan P.
1amparo
August 9, 2006 - 08:34 am
In Summer is the time for figs, from late July to October; August & September the most plentiful months. There are many types but only two colours: green and black. I prefer the latter and not the little round ones, the ones shaped a bit like a small pear, soft to the touch with the peel crackin a little bit...
I think California should have them now, or anywhere that has hot weather. In spain they are very cheap and plentiful - all kinds.
Here in Australia they are the most expensive of all fruits and in southen summer months of late December till nearly March.
.
JoanP. Yes, Cervantes wrote "higa" (not higo) in the original.
Almost 1 am Thursday 10th. I am off to bed.
Amparo
Deems
August 9, 2006 - 08:36 am
Amparo--Come back!!! Traude said something about if the feminine of figo is used, it is a terrible insult. TRUE????
1amparo
August 9, 2006 - 08:48 am
But it is in the Catalan and Valencian language. and the word, wait for it: FIGA! gosh I feel embarrassed now.
marni0308
August 9, 2006 - 09:18 am
Hats: I'm getting lost, too. Who was the cow, JoanP? And why did it jump over the moon? What a riot!
I saw something on the History Channel about the Black Death (bubonic plague) the other night. They said the nursery rhyme "Ring-around-the-Rosie" was about deaths from the plague. They said that in the plague in the Dark Ages (when it first hit Europe), 20 million people died in just 2 years.
Ring around the rosy
A pocketful of posies
"Ashes, Ashes"
We all fall down!
I found this on the web:
"The words to the Ring around the rosy children's ring game have their origin in English history . The historical period dates back to the Great Plague of London in 1665 (bubonic plague) or even before when the first outbreak of the Plague hit England in the 1300's. The symptoms of the plague included a rosy red rash in the shape of a ring on the skin (Ring around the rosy). Pockets and pouches were filled with sweet smelling herbs (or posies) which were carried due to the belief that the disease was transmitted by bad smells. The term "Ashes Ashes" refers to the cremation of the dead bodies! The death rate was over 60% and the plague was only halted by the Great Fire of London in 1666 which killed the rats which carried the disease which was transmitting via water sources. "
http://www.rhymes.org.uk/ring_around_the_rosy.htm
Deems
August 9, 2006 - 09:38 am
Thank you, Amparo, for coming to the rescue again. Sorry to make you blush. I guess Cervantes wasn't being quite as naughty as he might have been--or perhaps the distinction between O and A didn't matter in his day. At any rate, Sancho's words are pretty insulting as are those of the duenna.
marni--If you go to Joan's link there's a note on the bottom that indicates no one has figured out the COW yet. The cow bothers me too. No doubt some cutesy nickname Q Eliz. had for yet another of her retinue. Yes, the Ring around the Rosy thing apparently does refer to plague deaths. I used to know what the references to posies and other things in it were but they have slipped away. Thanks for reminding me.
The plague was still visiting London in Shakespeare's day so it wasn't just the middle ages but also the Renaissance. Theaters were closed for a year or so early in Shakespeare's career and scholars think that during that period he may have written some of the long poems.
Maryal
Traude S
August 9, 2006 - 10:56 am
From the rendition of the translators it is obvious that an obscenity was uttered by Sancho. AMPARO has confirmed that the feminine of the word in question (fig) is in the Spanish text. So Cervantes must have meant it in exactly the sense the Italians use the word (men among themselves). As I said, both the tree and the fruit are masculine.
"FicA" does not even exist.
Traude S
August 9, 2006 - 11:21 am
It may have been a status symbol to have on one's large estate a private chapel and a resident priest, who also served as dinner companion and adviser. We need only think of the French kings, especially Louis XIV, le roi soleil = the Sun King.
Cervantes is describing Spanish society in the 16th century, no doubt from his own experience. We know he traveled widely through the country on official business. At the end of Volume One he summarized eloquently and at great length the requisite attributes of a poet and a poet's breadth and width of knowledge. He himself is a splendid exmple.
But it is breadth, width from the philosophical to the mundane, rather than psychological depth. Freud and Jung were yet to be born. Cervantes shows and tells and beguiles with minute details, but he leaves reasoning to the reader.
Still and all, he depicts universal human traits, positive and negative, that we can observe each and every day all these centuries later:
greed; the power of money and of the sword; cowardice vs. valor; genuine praise vs. defamation; extreme selfishness vs. good works, and so on, and how people react in extreme situations not of their own making.
Let's be patient and see how this plays out. It is too soon to discount the governorship ...
Many thanks you for your kind personal thoughts.
hats
August 9, 2006 - 11:30 am
This is an illustration of about three or four headless guys(1,49). I haven't been looking at Dore. Since I had caught up in my reading, I started looking through it. I saw the illustration. I didn't know where it came from in the plot. Marni, do you see it? It's not that important. I should have been keeping up with the Dore and Cervantes' book.
This sketch, I believe, is just an exaggeration of what Don Q might have read about in his romances. So, no one should worry. I have it.
Mippy
August 9, 2006 - 02:49 pm
Traude ~
Do get well soon!
1amparo
August 9, 2006 - 06:02 pm
In Spanish, and Cervantes wrote in Spanish for the Spanish people, the word "higa" does not have the meaning of the rude word. As I had explained it means something quite different. In Spanish the fruit fig is called "higo" masculine. The tree's name in Spanish is "higuera" (feminine). IN ITALIAN, "FIG" IS "FICO"
The meaning and name of the Spanish word for the one being discussed here is (here comes another 4 letter word!) "coño", it is in the Spanish dictionary as a rude word, its equivalent in English would be f--k.
(I am using Spanish 4 letter words which never before in my life I have pronounced or written.)
Everyone is free to interpret the word "higa" as they please but it will have nothing to do with what Cervantes wrote. The Spanish Royal Academy (RAE) does not even consider many of the translations of El Quijote because of their our of context translation.
Doña Rodriguez and Sancho insult each other left right and centre.
Cheers.
Amparo
1amparo
August 9, 2006 - 06:38 pm
what I mean by its equivalent is in rudeness not the meaning of the word "coño" with f--k. and if I write coño, I should really fully type the other too!
Traude S
August 9, 2006 - 07:20 pm
AMPARO, thank you. For what it is worth, I have already mentioned the Italian word for "fig" and its gender in my post # 595, and again in # 622. I admit I read right over the word in the text without another thought.
And no, fica (if naughtily, indelicately used by men) does not mean the f-word but rather the one I indicated in my earlier post.
Thanks to you we now know the meaning of the Spanish word too.
1amparo
August 9, 2006 - 07:52 pm
I know Italian, I know "fica" does not exist in its dictionary, certainly not as fig.
JoanK
August 9, 2006 - 07:59 pm
Figs: the real ones, not the word. A fig expert I'm certainly not but my mother told me that some fig plants are male and some female. If this is true, then of course course the male plant pollinates the female plant which bears the fruit. The figs (fruit) contain seeds, some of which must be male, and some female. Or maybe one fig contains male seeds and another female. Who knows? Gender of nouns in a language doesn't always reflect reality.
I'll ask my daughter in California if she gets fresh figs. If so, I'll have to visit her in fig season!
I guess no one thinks the cow in the nursery rhyme is QE? That was my thought. But I guess no one would be that disrespectful.
1amparo
August 9, 2006 - 08:14 pm
The fig season in america is NOW, summer.
Phyll
August 10, 2006 - 07:04 am
North Carolina fig trees begin bearing in mid-July. I am not a lover of fresh figs but many people here think they are wonderful. If left on the tree too long, on under the tree when they fall, they ferment and they are a big MESS!
We even have a town in the Carolina mountains that is named FIG! But then, NC has many towns with strange names.....TOAST...STEM....WHY NOT....etc.
Deems
August 10, 2006 - 07:44 am
So........I have time to catch up on the reading. In addition, I thought I'd figure out how to post photos on SeniorNet. I saw PatW's instructions somewhere yesterday and forgot to copy them down. Drat.
Kemper Elizabeth taking cover during T'storm. Hey, what do you know, it worked. Back to
Don Quixote.
Maryal
hats
August 10, 2006 - 07:53 am
Kemper Elizabeth is cute and smart!
Joan Pearson
August 10, 2006 - 07:56 am
Good morning, mis comadres,
I came in earlier but as I was posting I overheard the disheartening breaking news of the planned terrorist attacks out of Heathrow to Dulles, New York, Miami and LA. What times we live in!
I left the computer for more details, then was off for an early dental appointment and now to baby sit little grandsons. Will be back this afternoon. I think I'm calmed down enough to get back on the trail.
Sancho seems to be the one to watch in these chapters. Though he claims he could live without governing an island, he really does believe he is getting that island. His insulting remarks to the lady in waiting - (whether or not he gave her the "fig") is an indication that he feels he is more than a squire and is entitled to the respect due a governor.
Did you notice how Sancho grabbed the green finery to wear on the hunt - Don Quixote refused his.
Do you see Sancho changing and Don Quixote unchanged - or do you see changes in the knight too - a big head from all the flattery he's receiving?
I thought it was particularly ironic when the "cure" to remove Dulcinea's enchantment fell on the squire[s back- literally! How funny. He is Don Quixote's squire still, though he doesn't feel like one - he's a governor now. He must do as his master directs him...and Don Quixote fully expects him to do so. So does the Duke.
These people are diabolical!
marni0308
August 10, 2006 - 08:57 am
I read in a footnote that duenas were commonly made fun of in comedies of Cervantes' time.
marni0308
August 10, 2006 - 08:58 am
Cute doggie, Maryal!
Deems
August 10, 2006 - 09:23 am
Hats, marni--Thank you for noticing KE's exceptional beauty. She is very aware of it! And she is very smart. Also afraid of thunder storms.
Marni--Interesting about the duenna being a stock comic figure. That makes sense. Cervantes wrote a lot of plays and would be familiar with stock characters, as would his audience.
marni0308
August 10, 2006 - 09:39 am
Maryal: Excuse me. I should have said "beautiful doggie," not "cute doggie"!
This reminds me of my mom. Every time I visit she tells me how beautiful her dog is. Sasha is certainly the best doggie, but beauty is truly in the eye of the beholder. Sasha is a most unusual looking dog being part lab and part Airedale Terrier. Very interesting whiskers.
marni0308
August 10, 2006 - 09:40 am
However, Maryal, your doggie is definitely of exceptional beauty!
marni0308
August 10, 2006 - 09:43 am
Joan Pearson
August 10, 2006 - 10:03 am
Exactly what is a dueña? Is this simply another name for "lady in waiting"? Is she actually a "lady"? She'd be higher on the social ladder than our squire, wouldn't she? Come to think of it, where were most squires on the ladder? Sancho is an exception. isn't he?
I was thinking just now about the Duke and the Duchess and their wicked sense of humor. It was Traudee who first referred to their malice. I didn't really see that until I read of their plan to force Sancho to undergo physical torture to free Dulcinea. 3000 lashes drawing blood is physical punishment. I'm wondering what these two are supposed to represent?
ps. Thanks for the photos, you'all. Quick Maryal, think of how the cute pups fit into this discussion! The photo patrol may catch you! The guidelines allow ~only photos relating to the book discussion to appear in a post.
judywolfs
August 10, 2006 - 10:30 am
Do the Duke and Duchess know that Sancho was the one who invented Dulcinia's "enchantment" into an ugly peasant? Maybe by his assigned 3,000 lashes is supposed to somehow make up for that deceit, like a penance given out by the church or something?
~JudyS
judywolfs
August 10, 2006 - 11:15 am
Exactly what is a dueña? Of course that would be best answered by Ampero, but I have this persistent notion that Alice on "The Brady Bunch" was a dueña.
~JudyS
marni0308
August 10, 2006 - 01:05 pm
I thought a duena (where's that symbol?) was like a maiden's guardian. A fair young maid couldn't just go walking about by herself. Too shocking. She needed a lady to keep her company and make sure there's was no hanky panky with a handsome lad.
I'll have to look it up.
Gad, I had forgotten about the 3000 lashes - I'm getting too far ahead. That was terrible! And not just to save Dulcinea for which the Don had to plead with Sancho to go through with the torture. The Duke was going to take away his promise of the insula if Sancho didn't complete the 3000 lashes. However, Sancho could lash himself and he could do it over a period of time, not all at once.
Can you just picture the Duke, Duchess, and their conniving vicious friends laughing hysterically as they thought this stuff up!!??
Mippy
August 10, 2006 - 01:41 pm
JoanP ~
Thanks for your note about the very disturbing events in London. I've been trying to read more of
DQ, but instead, I keep checking the on-line news; it's too hard to concentrate.
I just find I'm unable to escape into Cervantes' world today.
I really hate the part about Sancho and the 3000 lashes. This is not funny. Sancho is too naive to be humorous.
Joan Pearson
August 10, 2006 - 02:23 pm
Mippy, I've been listening to the streaming news reports and there's not a single thing I've heard to make me feel any better - EXCEPT there've been no reports of plane explosions since the plot was announced this morning. When I heard that MOST of the perpetrators had been arrested...I was afraid that there were others out there.
Meanwhile, back in Quixoteland, this charade has stopped being funny to me. These are not just idle rich amusing themselves on a lazy afternoon - these are sadistic people. What can be motivating them? (Judy, the Inquisition officials passed through my mind too.)
They've driven a wedge between Don Q and his squire too, have you noticed? Don Q. is twisting his squire's arm to undergo this torment and as Marni says, the Duke is holding the promised island over his head. Sancho has no choice, has he? He is clever though. He agrees to self-inflict the lashes, on his own time at his own speed. (How do you beat your own back?) I think he's got something up his sleeve with this promise.
I did think it was funny when Dulcinea (this can't be THE Dulcinea) lifted her veil and revealed her beautiful face - Don Q. felt his heart stuck in his throat - seven or eight inches from his lips. Not knowing how Sancho was going to answer her he was uncertain whether it would leap out of his throat or sink into the pit of his stomach. Graphic! He believes this is his Lady!
Traude S
August 10, 2006 - 02:49 pm
It is particularly annoying how relentlessly the duke and duchess (especially the duchess, it seems) are making fun of Sancho, who is of humble birth and cannot read or write.
Why have they conceived this elaborate plan of the three thousand three hundred lashes he is to administer to himself, and even draw blood? Do they want to test his loyalty to the Don ?
When Sancho origially winces in horror, the Don threatens him with twice the number of lashes, i.e. six thousand six hundred! Then Sancho tries to negotiate a "rationed" number.
But just the same he BELIEVES all the people in the parade of carts are enchanters, just like DQ, and he is frightened.
Who one of the impersonators is will shortly be revealed.
A Dueña (or Duenna) is, I believe, an older woman who served as a chaperone to a younger maiden on social occasions; AMPARO will probaby let us know.
MARYAL, Kemper Elizabeth is a wonderful dog. It's easy to tell from the eyes. You are lucky. I'll never forget Zola, my faithful adopted Greyhound, who gave me years of pleasure and companionship. I miss her every day.
Must watch the evening news now.
1amparo
August 10, 2006 - 06:16 pm
Companion, Lady-in-waiting, chaperon, dame. To be a dueña in a noble house to the lady of the house was and is a great honour even in modern times.
Heathrow and the consequences. I can almost cry: on a long flight of 23 hours my skin and eyes get very dry with the air-condition and I need Nivea cream and eye drops... I would have to ask flight "costumer service" (I like this new title!), to give me one of those first class packs... What about books to read and pens to write, comb to keep hair tidy? Not even a small handbag allowed!
Amparo
Joan Pearson
August 10, 2006 - 06:25 pm
"not even a purse" - Maybe the strictures will not be as severe flying out of Australia? Must you go through Heathrow, Amparo? No comb? I'll have a care package waiting for you at this end. I think you are allowed to carry a book from Heathrow, aren't you?
Thank you for describing "dueña. Would such a lady in a noble's house in Quixote's time come from a high-born family? Would she be a "lady" - higher on the social scale than a squire?
It occurs to me that the Duke and Duchess are more than hosts at this entertainment - they are participants as well. Remember how the duchess wanted to face down the wild boar? What was that about? It sounds to me as if she wants to have a chapter or two in the second volume...and hey, she got that!!!
Deems
August 10, 2006 - 06:38 pm
OOOOoooops. Apologies all round for the photo of the pup. Lessee. Connection to Don Quixote. Wasn't he going to have pups or maybe it was cubs with Dulcinea--or at least made to think of it--back in Part I? My error if it was cubs. As in LION. I think of all animal young as pups, and thus I posted the photo of a t'storm waiting Kemper. Yes, that's it, the confusion of an old person. Won't do it any more.
Traude--she is a wonderful dog, so intelligent, aware of so many words.
As for the Duke and Duchess and their elaborate practical joke on DQ and Sancho, it seems to be mostly a trick to get Sancho to disenchant the lady Dulcinea, doesn't it?
I can think of several reasons why we have this scene (other than a sort of taking down of the upper class by revealing their self-serving and unkind behavior.) The scene stars Sancho and gives him a chance to sound off, for example, about the oddness of the treatment and the lack of kindness. And to crack some two dozen proverbs in his own defense as well as attacking DQ for not asking him nicely instead of threatening to tie him naked to a tree and administer the lashes himself.
Sancho is pretty eloquent in his defense as well as clever enough to get the "penance" adjusted to his specifications. He is under no time constraint to administer the lashes; the lashes do not need to draw blood, need not even BE lashes but may be no more than "the flick of an animal's tail brushing away flies," and he need not even keep count of them--Merlin has to be responsible for the count!
Back in high school, one of the favorite sayings (never liked it myself) said mockingly when admitting to guilt was "OK, go ahead and give me fifty lashes with a wet noodle," or words to that effect.
That's about what Sancho is accepting here.
Earlier today I was thinking about the liberties those who served the Duke and Duchess took with Sancho and the attempt to wash his beard with dirty water and also the duenna and her Attitude. Those who serve the high and mighty come to think of themselves as nobility whereas in reality they themselves do not become noble; it's just the attitudes they develop as they put on airs.
I agree with the description of a duenna as a companion, the one who accompanies a young Spanish lady everywhere and makes it impossible for her to be in the company of men alone.
I also thought of the Nurse (great role) in Romeo and Juliet.
Maryal (who mixes up cubs and pups)
1amparo
August 10, 2006 - 06:40 pm
No JoanP, I am not going via Heathrow: it is because of the consequences of yesterday all airports now have adopted same security measures. Would these measures be lifted in the near future? Very much doubted!
I gave my daughter a pretty beach bag from Spain, it is plastic, transparent, too big for just a passport, tissues (out of the box) et cetera but unless I can get something smaller, it will have to do.
Thanks for your offer of a pack: not allowed to carry it, hence me asking flight personnel as all my toilet gear will be inside my luggage. will see.
Yes, on those times a dueña would be of noble birth also perhaps spinster or widowed if older, if young presented at Court.
Cheers.
hats
August 11, 2006 - 04:53 am
I hope all of these strange happenings at the Duchess and Duke's estate will shock Don Q back into his right mind, out of the world of madness. That's a big wish.
Joan Pearson
August 11, 2006 - 07:02 am
Gee, these flight attendants will have to carry quite a pharmacy on board, won't they? You're right though, soon most airlines from whatever destination into the US will have to adopt severe measures to assure safety. I heard a report that the bombs had been planned for sometime in the coming weeks...
Hats, I hope the same thing, but it looks as if the Duke and Duchess have not quite finished with the charade just yet. The introduction of the heavily veiled Countess, Lady Dolorida- a dueña of all dueñas is part of the plot too as she comes looking for Don Q. specifically.
Quite a grand entrance - Dore captured Cervantes words, but they weren't really necessary as Cervantes painted such an exacting picture...(Maryal, maybe she is carrying a little pup under those robes) Why is Sancho disturbed at her arrival? Another lady looking for knightly aid might mean his services as a squire will be required?
Mippy
August 11, 2006 - 07:29 am
This is a big disconnect for me, trying to comment on DQ at the same time as thinking about airplanes in danger, and our dear Amparo having all that inconvenience; maybe by October the rules will be less rigorous, and even now, one may take all her cosmetics and medicines in luggage checked in, just not on board. So perhaps a care package on arrival is less of an issue than how to cope with dry eyes on board.
{{{{{Amparo}}}}} Big Hugs! Please do try not to worry!
I cannot figure out why Sancho is worried. I'm as lost as Sancho at the moment, even though I read this yesterday.
1amparo
August 11, 2006 - 06:40 pm
Yes, it is while on board that my concern is. I have come out with the idea of sloshing some tissues with moisturizer cream and keep them in a small plastic bag, the eye drops I can't think of anything... yet. Alas!, at this stage Qantas says "no books on board/cabin", they also say the new rules are here to stay.
In regards to bombs, well it would not be the first time I have been on a plane with a bomb scare. My philosophy is; I cannot escape my fate, therefore not much point in worrying: que será, será.
Now. who do we think this new "lady Dolorida" is?, (just changing subject)
Did you all laugh at visualasing Sancho hanging up-side-down, screaming his lungs out. I do, time and time again.
Roll-on October.
Amparo
Deems
August 11, 2006 - 08:23 pm
Amparo--I think the idea of moisturizer on tissues in a plastic bag an excellent one. I can't think of what to do about eye drops either unless you can get a prescription for a lubricant. Apparently prescriptions are allowed when they have the name of the person whose name is on the ticket. At least that's what they're telling us here.
I wish they would ban cell phones (which I hate) and all electronic devices. Looks like the people arrested in London were planning to use some sort of electronic device as a detonator. It seems to me that all we do is reAct to the last scheme instead of thinking a little ahead. End of rant.
Maybe airlines are going to have to get with it and pack more water--not to mention maybe some food--in order to make people comfortable on long distance flights.
Tomorrow is the Washington D.C. SuperShow (fountain pens) which I attend every year, so I will be absent.
Maryal
1amparo
August 11, 2006 - 10:49 pm
Enjoy you day at the fountain-pens show. Did you know they have been ban as an item on hand luggage?, unless they have the ink cartridge removed? Wow!
I have been to our International airport to ask questions; yes, I can take a book. Hurray! They also said as you; take a letter from the optometrist. It looks like it is not going to be so bad after all. I shall keep fingers crossed I don't sit next to a stinky smelly person for I will not have anything with me to spray on. But I think I am being negative
and paranoid.
Amparo PS. I did not tell security about my idea of tissues & moisturizer in case they put me in their no, no, book!
hats
August 12, 2006 - 01:14 am
Amparo I hope you have a fun and safe trip. I think you have all your ducks in a row.
hats
August 12, 2006 - 01:40 am
I just don't like this duchess. When Sancho says he wacked himself with his hands, she says that's not good enough. The duchess feels Sancho, if he really wanted to disenchant Dulcinea, would have used a cat-o-nine-tail or a whip with metal points. I have given up hope that Don Q and Sancho will get away from these people. I know they will leave this estate. I just wonder how?????? I think someone will have to come to their rescue.
Mippy
August 12, 2006 - 06:13 am
Sancho is just a faux governor. Does our author want the readers to believe Sancho has become a gentleman?
I don't think so. It's his way of making fun of landlords, governors, and all other officials. Right?
Deems
August 12, 2006 - 07:46 am
Brief note to all--I'm off to the PenShow. Gosh, Amparo--I'm glad I'm driving. Having to pack pen in checked in luggage!! With ink removed. Poor pen.
I'll check in tonight, overstimulated no doubt.
Maryal
Joan Pearson
August 12, 2006 - 08:09 am
Good morning, mis comadres!
Have fun, Maryal! I hope you find a treasure - although we know for you the road is better than the inn!
I'm glad we have Don Quixote to occupy our thoughts...although I agree it's difficult Mippy. Right now, it is a good distraction. I love your attitude, Amparo!
Who is playing Lady Dolorida? When the exquisitely beautiful Dulcinea lifted her veil to reveal her face, Don Q nearly swooned. Wasn't it a hoot to learn that "she" was the duke's page boy?! And that Merlin was his steward? It was this steward who wrote all the lines and directed the whole show. SO I'm guessing that the heavily veiled Lady Dolorida is also a member of the duke and duchess's staff. How about the duchess's lady-in-waiting - Doña Rodriguez? Sancho is worried enough when this new dueña arrives on the scene (why??) - but to discover that Doña Rodriguez is returning the figgy insult would be delicious. I can see Cervantes doing this, can you?
Amparo, Sancho hanging upside down reminds me of something I read back when we were discussing the puppet show. The stringed marionettes make appearances throughout the story. Sancho hanging upside down is an example. Remember Don Q. hanging at the inn window with the string Maritornes tied to his finger? There are many images of marionettes hanging by their strings. One article I read calls Cervantes the master puppeteer who is pulling all the strings to tell his story.
Mippy, that's what I see too - Cervantes making fun of landlords, governors, and all other officials when Sancho so ill-suited to become a governor is given the office. Also I see him criticizing the idle rich. And somehow in these chapters, I see him criticizing the church and the Inquisition through his puppets. Of course the puppets' voices come from the mouth of Cidi Hamete. (another puppet) But it's hard to hang a puppet, isn't it?
Hats ~ "I have given up hope that Don Q and Sancho will get away from these people. I know they will leave this estate." Mmm, Hats, I worry too - we have a limited number of chapters left...WILL they reach the tournament at Zaragosa? Where is Sanson? I worry that he will get involved here? He is the one who has vowed to get even with Don Quixote. I can't think of anyone else who wants to hurt the knight. (I don't count the evil enchanters ) Let's hope the story doesn't end at this dreadful place!
Traude S
August 12, 2006 - 08:55 am
It is impossible to predict what turn events will take. We need to remember, though, thar it was Don Q himself who first dangled the plum of a governorship before Sancho's greedy eyes. The duke and duchess merely picked up the idea and promise fulfillment.
What is so hard to understand is their motivation. Why do they trifle with both DQ and Sancho? Why do people derive such perverse pleasure from humililiating their fellow men/women? And why are bystanders amused ? (Of course there is Mr. Springer in our own time ...)
La Señora Rodriguez is a member of the duchess's staff, I believe. Sancho may be (only) a poor peasant, but he may well end up having the last laugh.
AMPARO, of course the new rules are upsetting across he board for all air travelers, but you are not traveling any time soon. Things will work out by the time you depart; they usually do. At least that is my credo.
MARYAL, I still stubbornly use my fountain pens with ink rather than cartridges. I used to buy several bottles of ink during my regular trips to Europe for a fraction of what they cost here. But I haven't been there since before 9/11 and no plans of going there any time soon.
hats
August 12, 2006 - 11:48 am
I can't believe Sancho really thinks of himself as a governor. I think he is just as mad as Don Q. I am probably repeating myself. He signs his letter to Teresa with "Your husband the governor." He also sends Teresa a green hunting tunic.
The estate of the duchess and the duke is like a carnival. Now all these people come in wrapped in black. The Countess Trifaldi is fasting, I think, until she sees Don Q. I can't wait to see what in the world will happen next.
Am I behind? Am I riding along with Mippy and the others? Am I lost? Somehow I feel my mount is riding too slowly. I better ride faster.
Sancho can't read and write. Who wrote the letter to Teresa?
Joan Pearson
August 12, 2006 - 03:13 pm
Thanks for the reminder, Traudee - it WAS Don Q. who has been dangling the governorship in front of Sancho. It is this crowd you have added the lashings to his prospects. I just hate the way they are all laughing at his letter to Teresa. They can't believe that he is so gullible as to believe that a low peasant as himself deserves such a post.
Hats - I wonder who wrote that letter for him? I get mad at the duke and duchess for laughing at Sancho, but I find myself laughing too when I think of what Teresa must have thought when she read it. Wait, she can't read, can she? She's not supposed to tell anyone about the letter, but she can't read it. I bet she goes to the priest with it. And I bet he comes to find Don Q and bring him home again.
Will she be happy to hear that her husband is off to govern an island? Maybe he'll send for her if things go well. She'll have a coach to ride around in. Somehow I don't think she'll be impressed. She'll believe as you do that he's gone mad. Is he mad or just trusting and gullible?
She won't be happy with the news - not even a suitcase of gold coins to pay the mounting bills at home. I guess the daughter will be happy with the new green skirt and blouse. I'm worried that she will attract some village low-life in her fine clothes.
Whenever you get lost and wonder where we are, use the heading as the north star, okay? I'm not sure where everyone else is at this point. I know several have moved ahead. Some are catching up, some are hopelessly behind. But you, Hats are "spot on" as Amparo would say. Where is everyone else?
Tomorrow we will find out why this dueña is in mourning, what she wants from the duke - or from Don Q....and maybe even who she is!
1amparo
August 12, 2006 - 06:00 pm
LOL. I think you have got
doña Rodriguez calling you all the names under the sun as she did with Sancho; you have called her
señora and insult to a noble born lady and a literate one
. If not "literate" in the modern sense of the word, definitely a "dueña" would know how to read and write. Señora is a courtesy title given to all married women. We know Teresa can neither read nor write, none the less she has the title of 'señora' or as in her part of the country, in her neighbours' lingo, 'señá' Teresa.
This protocol is still in force today: we have the second in line to the Spanish trone, a baby not yet one year old, and she is adressed even by the media as "doña Leonor". The pronouns "don" and "doña" are not written with capital "D" unless it is after a full stop.
Cheers mate.
Amparo
Deems
August 12, 2006 - 06:01 pm
The pen show was wonderful, though exhausting. It's held at the Sheraton near Tyson's Corners in Virginia. There's a long hallway in the lobby leading to the two large rooms with tables on both sides and pen sellers. Inside the first large room are many more pensellers, both new pens and old, stores and private individuals who collect and sell pens. Every manner of fountain pen (and some ballpoints and rollerballs--this is the 21st century after all) that you can imagine: Esterbrooks, Mont Blancs, Pelikans, Watermans, Parkers, Viscontis, on and on. Second even larger room is the same. And it was crowded.
I ended up getting two pen nibs ground down into stubs (a sort of smooth italic) and buying two others, both Pelikans, with speciality nibs. One is flexible and italic, the other a broader italic. The two pens were from John Mottishaw who comes every year from California. He specializes in grinding nibs and his pens are a joy to write with.
Traude--I also use bottled ink in my pens, much more economical than cartridges and lasts longer too. There are many lovely colors now, more coming out every year.
Anyway, to return to Don Quixote, here we go again with more of the Duke and Duchess's "fun." Now we have a procession of twelve duennas, followed by the Dolorous Duenna who has a boon to ask from our knight. I noted that said person had a rough and hoarse voice and decided that it must be a man, but don't know for sure yet since I haven't read ahead.
I suspected that "Dulcinea" might be a beautiful young boy. Again I thought of Shakespeare and his plays, the parts all filled by men and boys. Hard as it is for modern audiences to imagine Juliet as played by a male, or Hamlet's Ophelia, or Lear's lovely Desdemona, they all were.
All you have to do to imagine it really is to think of some of those lovely twelve year old boys you've seen before they enter adolescence. My own son was absolutely beautiful from about 8-12. I never had a brother and thus was amazed at how lovely he was. Of course, time went by and he became full-grown. He's still good looking but how far he has fallen from that angelic height!
So it's not amazing to me at all that a page could play the part of a beautiful lady. Even the voice would be in the right register.
I loved Sancho's letter to his wife (dictated we are told without being told who wrote it for him--perhaps I missed it?) Here's my favorite part:
I'll see how things are there and let you know whether or not you should come to be with me. The gray is fine and sends you his best; I don't plan to leave him even if they make me a Grand Turk.
I'm not sure why I'm so enchanted with Sancho's love for his donkey. Perhaps it has something to do with wanting a horse the whole time I was growing up.
~Maryal, who will probably go to the Pen Show tomorrow too.
Deems
August 12, 2006 - 06:02 pm
Hi Amparo. We were posting at the same time.
1amparo
August 12, 2006 - 06:14 pm
I can see you had a lovely day at the show.
I remember all those pens we used to fill with ink from a bottle. And sometimes my brothers would make me one from a feather!
Few years ago I lost my Mont Blanc... I still miss it, but they are so expensive and my brain so useless I will lose it again, so no replacement!
Cheers mate.
hats
August 13, 2006 - 01:26 am
Amparo you are priceless. I will always remember Don Quixote and Amparo our Spanish translator long the way.
Deems I am glad you enjoyed the pen show.
hats
August 13, 2006 - 06:07 am
I think our Dolorous One is a male too. His voice is not "delicate" like a lady. Then, the pretender says "May it please your highnesses, you should not show so much courtesy to this your serving man, I mean to say serving woman...."
This part I had to laugh over. It is really silly.
"Panza," said Sancho before anyone else could respond, "is here, and Don Quixotissimo as well, and so, most dolorous duennissima, you can say whatever you wishissima, for we're all ready and most prepared to be your most servantish servantissimos."
Joan Pearson
August 13, 2006 - 09:04 am
Good morning, glories! My wish for you is as glorious a Sunday as we are having today in the DC area! Atypical for the usually hot, muggy dog days of August, but will NOT complain!
Last evening Bruce rented a movie - "Orlando" based on a Virginia Wolffe novel. It begins in the year 1603 in Queen Elizabeth's court. Such elaborate, lavish amusements to enterain the court! Pageants...were they called "masques"? It all reminded me of what we are seeing here in the duke and duchess's "court"! I'm guessing that this was not unusual excess for the nobles of the time.
Geeee, how did I miss all the clues indicating that the dueña (all of them?) might be a man! Many apologies to doña Rodriguez (Amparo, throughout the translation, Burton Raffel refers to her as Doña Rodriguez ! Should I write to him?) - my apologies for suspecting the deep--voiced dueña might be this feminissa servantissa! Cervantes left enough clues - I missed them all! Maryal got the deep voice, Hats, "the serving man, I mean to say serving woman" - and today's chapter makes it as plain as the beard on your face! So, now, who is playing the role of the countess? I have NO idea! Perhaps another of the Duke's staff?
Another question - don't you think the 12 dueñas travelling with her - is an excessive number? Why so many? Why 12?
I must admit the all the talk of the lady's skirt and the meaning of the name went right over my head. Do you think it was important? Anyone with an explanation - or at least a footnote explaining it?
hats
August 13, 2006 - 10:54 am
I never would suspected "bearded ladies." What a sight to look at, I can't imagine. I think this is the biggest misadventure of all. I don't see how Don Q can help these dozen bearded ladies. One thing is for sure these ladies need a disenchantment or a knight errant quickly. JoanP I don't why a dozen. I bet there is a reason.
Traude S
August 13, 2006 - 12:08 pm
JOAN P and HATS, could the number twelve be an allusion to Christ's twelve disciples?
Now here's a question for AMPARO: what is la dueña called in Spanish?
Raffel, we know from JOAN P, calls her (him?) "La dolorida". Grossman refers only to the "Dolorous Duenna" or "the Dolorous One". That my be an early hint as to the gender of the character ...
The black dress would indicate mourning. But who or what is being mourned?
hats
August 13, 2006 - 12:29 pm
Traude what a thought!!! It sounds good to me. I wonder what JoanP thinks? What are these twelve mourning?
Joan Pearson
August 13, 2006 - 03:33 pm
I find this utterly fascinating...delving into the mind and motivation of a man who lived over 400 years ago! There are a number of things the number twelve might refer to. I'll tell you those I can think of and see what you think.
Traudee, there have been many parallels between Christ and Don Quixote - someone said this - unfortunately I made a note of it and neglected to write the author's name - "In his ideals and desire for a better world, Don Quixote mirrors Christ and criticizes a world that lacks a genuine spiritual center."
I will keep in mind the twelve disciples, though don't yet see them followers of our knight. But what if he manages to perform a miracle and remove the bushy beards? I'll bet the twelve would become believers! I think we need to read the rest of this episode to find the answer.
We see them walking in a processional, which looks very much like a religious group. I see that there is a Convento de las Dueñas in Salamanca, Spain. Remember this place? Cervantes is said to have had some schooling here. There is a Cervantes House in this town. It is mentioned frequently in Don Quixote - as a center of learning. Didn't Sanson Carrasco go to school here? If Cervantes went to school here, he may have seen the nuns on such a processional as he describes here.
Convento de las Dueñas - Las Dueñas Convent
The courtyard is one of the jewels of the Spanish Renaissance.
The convent was founded in 1419, although the church, in the Gothic style, dates from the 16th century.
I agree with you,
Hats, I think there has to be a reason for giving the specific number - especially since rereading this chapter I see another mention of "12" -
"As soon as the band of dueñas was fully in sight, the duke, the duchess, and Don Quixote stood up, as well as all who were watching the slow-moving procession. The twelve dueñas halted and formed a lane, along which the Distressed One advanced, Trifaldin still holding her hand. On seeing this the duke, the duchess, and Don Quixote went some twelve paces forward to meet her."
I looked up symbolism associated with the number twelve - and found this:
The number 12 is strongly associated with the heavens—the 12 months, the 12 signs of the zodiac, and the 12 stations of the Moon and of the Sun. The ancients recognized 12 main northern stars and 12 main southern stars. There are 24 = 2 ´ 12 hours in the day, of which 12 are daytime and the other 12 nighttime. The number 12 is the product of the sacred and the secular (3 ´ 4); it is the sum of the numbers of life and good fortune (5 + 7). It thus incorporates many distinct virtues. In Christianity it is the number of Christ's disciples, and it occurs many other times in the Bible—for example, the Twelve Tribes of Israel..." Symbolism of Numbers
What do YOU think? Shall we wait for the rest of the episode, keeping all these possibilities in mind?
Joan Pearson
August 13, 2006 - 03:36 pm
Traudee asks an interesting question. Why are all the dueñas weeping and in mourning? Are they guilty of the same sin as their sister, the Countess Trifaldi? How guilty did you think she was? Did she deserve such harsh punishment?
Deems
August 13, 2006 - 04:54 pm
to see if there is a special significance to the number of attendant duennas. All I can think of is that it is an absurd number of duennas and a bit more than overkill. Also twelve is an important number in measurement--12 inches to the foot, etc. Perhaps there are so many duennas to indicate how very high up this Dolorous Duenna is.
Don't we need the Spanish from Amparo? To see how Cervantes referred to this sad woman?
There is certainly a lot of BLACK around what with all those mourning garments. Also a lot of beards.
Maryal
1amparo
August 13, 2006 - 11:15 pm
Hats, thank you mate! it is the first time anyone has called me “priceless” . It almost went up to my head!
Dueña Dolorida. / Condesa “Trifaldi” (countess Three-skirts), or simply “la Dolorida” or “la Trifaldi”. These are names by which this character is referred to/as.
Traude: "The black dress would indicate mourning. But who or what is being mourned?" La Trifaldi and the twelve dueñas seem to be wearing black on account of their queen “Maguncia’s” death.
Salamanca University is the oldest university in Spain (1218) and for many years was the best. There are now many universities all over Spain, even La Mancha has one.
When I correct anything, I am not having a go at anyone: just pointing facts as from the original DQ.
Amparo
Joan Pearson
August 14, 2006 - 06:28 am
Good morning, Questers!
Amparo, you are indeed a priceless treasure. We cannot say that enough, even though it makes you blush - and may even go to your head! Your constant guidance through our English translations serves as our north star illuminating what Cervantes actually wrote.
I'm in the dark as to why the author spent so much time describing the Countess's name (as if such a person actually did exist) - Her real name should have been "la condesa Lobona". It is written that the name translated from "lobo" which meant either "she-wolf" or "priest's cassock." He goes on to explain that in those days it was the custom for the lord of a manor to take the name of the things most abundant on his estate. The countess's father had many foxes, so her name would then have been "la condesa Zorruna." But, Cervantes explains, this would have meant "vixen" or worse, "prostitute" - so she dropped it - and changed to Trifaldi. whew!
Was any of this discussion relevant to our story? Why is it even here?
Hats refers to this episode as "the greatest misadventure of all." It certainly is a complicated plot. And there are so many unanswered questions. Perhaps some of the illusions were familiar to Cervantes' readers? All we can do is try to unravel as much as we can - but the bottom line is that we know that the whole thing is a charade created to make our knight and his squire/governor look ridiculous to the assembled nobility.
Some answered/unanswered questions to consider today:
Why twelve bearded dueñas? Why did Don Q take twelve steps towards them? Why twelve?
Why are they in black? They are mourning. Why are they mourning - the queen's death.
Why are they bearded ladies? They've been cursed by Malambruno, the queen's cousin.
Why did he curse the thirteen dueñas? This is unanswered. We know only why he cursed the Countess.
Why did he curse the countess? He holds her responsible for his cousin's death.
Does she herself feel responsible? Where does she affix the blame?
Why and how did he curse the queen's daughter and her "husband"? Is there any significance to the bronze monkey and the ghastly crocodile?
Mippy
August 14, 2006 - 07:10 am
We seem to be stalled a bit in this long, confusing tale, aren't we?
Was Queen Dona Maguncia wearing black because she was the widow of King Archipiela?
Then, were all the dueñas wearing black because the queen was wearing mourning?
Any light someone else could throw on this would help me!
1amparo
August 14, 2006 - 07:51 am
This chap, don “Clavijo” ( a Casanova / don Juan) gets countess Trifaldi to get him into the bedchamber of princess “Antonomasia”. Clavijo gives the princess “a swelling belly” (Cervantes wrote “hinchazón de vientre”), therefore this nobody don Clavijo manages to marry the princess; (shotgun wedding I think it is called). The princess mother, queen doña “Maguncia” (magician/witch?), is sooo upset that her daughter has had to married this lower class chap that three days after the wedding she, the queen, dies.
As the ones responsible for the princess big-belly was/is countess Trifaldi (& co.) for failing in her/their care of the princess: hence the queen’s cousin “Malambruno” = big-bad-man, (another magician?, me thinks so) puts the spell to all dueñas as punishment. That’s why they are wearing black and cry such…. I think.
Amparo
Joan Pearson
August 14, 2006 - 08:05 am
Mippy, yes, the ladies were wearing black because they were in mourning -
BUT why were they cursed with the beards? Maybe Cervantes is presenting these questions in this chapter only to answer them in the next? We can keep such questions in mind, while we ponder what he HAS told us in this one. (My fear is that we will never learn the answers.)
Why has the countess been cursed? Is she responsible for the queen's death?
Amparo can you see how the punishment, the beard, is associated with her crime? Did you notice the Countess's explanation of WHY she let the scoundrel into the princess's bedchamber?
Why have the princess and her husband been cursed as monkey and a crocodile figurines. I found an old fable about a monkey and a crocodile, but can't see how it fits here?
Monkey and Crocodile
JoanK
August 14, 2006 - 09:19 am
Clearly, lady Dolorida is holding a dog (a Jack Russel Terrier) under those voluminous robes to console her. It's lucky we had a picture of one earlier, so we can imagine it!!
judywolfs
August 14, 2006 - 10:01 am
Mippy observed that "We seem to be stalled a bit in this long, confusing tale, aren't we?" I admit that I got so frustrated and confused that it bored me, so I just quickly skimmed over it and moved on. I don't like those intricate stories within stories. And I can never keep the characters straight.
~JudyS
Deems
August 14, 2006 - 10:34 am
Why thank you, Joan K, for being so observant. Of course the JR Terrier fits into the story! A dear companion in times of woe.
I'm caught up in what the Dolorous One says more than I am in the bearded companions, probably because I see them as men dressed up as women. The beards would indicate that DQ and Sancho can't see the reality of the situation, preferring to believe in the enchantment story.
But in the Dolorous Duenna's story, we find the old debate about poetry and philosophy or the serious contemplation of life.
The Dolorous One explains that she was not only bribed with trinkets by Don Clavijo but that the key to her being seduced by him into allowing him access to the Princess was the songs he sang.
"The song seemed like pearls to me, and his voice like honey, and after that, I mean from that time on, seeing the harm that came to me because of these and other verses like them, I have believed that from virtuous and harmonious republics poets must be banished, as Plato advised, at least the lascivious ones, because they write verses that are not like those of the Marquis of Mantua, which entertain children and women and make them weep, but are sharp, like tender thorns that pierce your soul and, like bolts of lightning, wound you there without tearing your clothes."
She then gives us lines from another verse composed by Don Clavijo.
Plato banned poets from his ideal Republic, arguing that poets stirred up the emotions and dealt with things that were not real. (The only poet Plato would have known much about was Homer if you discount those Greek tragedians.)
Aristotle admired poets because he saw that poetry could not only stir up emotion but also provide Catharsis, or the release of those powerful emotions vicariously.
During the Renaissance when the writings of the ancients, especially Plato and Aristotle, were being rediscovered and argued over, one of the key issues dealt with what we would call creative writing, whether or not there was any place for it.
Here the Dolorous One argues that had it not been for those lovely songs that Don Clavijo sang at night, she never would have allowed him access to the Princess, not one night but many nights until the Princess has a "certain swelling of the belly."
The really incredible part of the story for me was the death of the Queen three days after the young couple are married!! If you don't think there's something fishy by this point, notice that even Sancho does.
Sancho points out that "the princess's recklessness wasn't so great that [her mother] had to die over it," and that furthermore, Don Clavijo was a knight (however impoverished he may have been) and that such a marriage would not be impossible.
If the beards weren't enough, if the untimely death of the queen was not enough, We know that we are way over the top in the land of fairytales when the "giant Malambruno, Maguncia's first cousin, who was both cruel and an enchanter," appears above Maguncia's grave seated on a wooden horse. And turns the young couple into a bronze monkey and a metal crocodile!!!!
Giants again! Enchanters again! All we need is a dwarf to complete the cast.
The end of this chapter is funny to me as all the twelve duennas expose their faces and beards of many colors are revealed.
Remember when ethnic jokes were all the rage? How many Polacks does it take to screw in a light bulb? for example. Supply the ethnic group of your choice.
This is one long Bearded Duenna Joke!!
Traude S
August 14, 2006 - 07:03 pm
Grossman's translation of chapter 38 contains several footnotes; none, alas, sheds light on the questions raised here.
She is incredibly thorough in the most minute details of literature and geography; she customarily cites the sources of poems quoted, short and long, including those reportedly uttered by Don Clavijo in chapter 38.
In one of the footnotes in chapter 38 (on pg. 707) we read that Maguncia (as in Queen Doña Maguncia) is the Spanish name of the German city of Mainz, and that (Princess) " Antonomasia is a rhetorical figure in which a title is used instead of a name", a detail that is interesting but not particularly helpful.
The Countess Trifaldi rhapsodizes so much about Don Clavijo and his clever words that one quite believes she was smitten with him herself.
Of course she was guilty of having made access to the 14-year old princess possible, and she freely admits it. And the seduction of the young girl is another variation on the same theme narrated already in Part I.
The giant Malambruno is another enchanter; his materialization as an actual combatant of DQ therefore highly questionable, if not totally unlikely, and the curse has no validity. There is no question that the countess and the twelve bearded duennas are fakes, and we can only speculate that the duke and duchess have "invented" her.
I believe that all the brouhaha is designed to frighten and intimidate DQ and Sancho, and to wear down especially the already frail Don. Sancho, on the other hand, is made of stronger stuff, physically and mentally, and will need some further "pummeling".
marni0308
August 14, 2006 - 09:36 pm
I've caught up on all the weekend posts - so many! I spent the weekend enjoying the gorgeous weather - yay! finally! - and doing yard chores and going for joy-rides with the jeep top down. But, I paid for it today when I got stung on my hand while I was trimming my hedge. Now I'm feeling sorry for myself. I hate bee and wasp stings! My hand is all swollen up, but I can still type comments. So here goes....
Re "BUT why were they cursed with the beards?"
I thought the donas were given beards just to explain away why the men playing the parts of the donas had beards. I think beards were the style at that time, so the men probably all had beards. I bet the group got a big chuckle when they created the story of the donas, the princess, the giant, the horse, etc. Just imagine them sitting around throwing out ideas in a big brain-storming session coming up with ways to tease Sancho and DQ and to entertain the nobles.
Re a post about Sancho whipping himself to fulfill his lash requirement - this reminded me of the TV program about the Black Death I watched recently.....It mentioned a flagellant movement that developed after the plague spread across Europe. It was a huge movement that eventually defied the Church and was banned by the Church. That reminded me of the flagellants we saw earlier in Don Quixote. Here's info about the flagellants:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagellant
Joan Pearson
August 15, 2006 - 06:18 am
Good morning, weary Questers!
hahaha, Judy, I thought of you when reading Don Q's assessment of the situation - the opening line to Chapter 41 - "the arrival of the magic horse, and the end of this long, drawn out adventure"
Does it sound to you as if our author has tired of the adventure too? I did notice that the whole confrontation with Malambruno was - mercifully brief! Do you think we have heard the last of the bearded dueñas?
:)Smiling too at JoanK's remark - there's more besides the little Jack Russell beneath the "countess's" robes - Men dressed as women - I muddled through a long dissertation on "gender-bending" throughout the novel - it was so deep, or I was so tired that I came up for air with nothing in my net. You probably do remember the priest and the barber dressing as women. I'll try to find the article again. There is a bit more to it than the fact that men were acting the parts, Marni. I'll try to find it.
Maryal - yes, yes, the dueña blamed her lapse in judgment on the poetry she'd been reading. An excellent post, Thank you! Should anything that stirs the emotions be banned then? Along with the tales of chivalry our knight has been reading? Burn them all!
So the countess must be punished for allowing the scoundrel into the fourteen year old's bedchamber. She was caused the ruin, the disfigurement of this little girl, it is only right that the dueña herself be disfigured.
Traudee observes that the countess herself was smitten by Don Clavijo. She is paying for it now, isn't she? A heavy beard on a woman? A fate worse than...pregnancy!
I'm still thinking of what you said about "the brouhaha is designed to frighten and intimidate DQ and Sancho, and to wear down especially the already frail Don." Was that the motivation of the duke and duchess? OR was it a test of courage? Or simply amusement as Marni describes it. Whatever the motivation, our knight certainly passed the test, didn't he?
Joan Pearson
August 15, 2006 - 06:28 am
Before we begin (and end) the flight aboard the pegged wooden horse, (whose name escapes me at the moment) - I don't want to forget to note how much I enjoyed "hearing" Cervantes in the opening paragraph of Chapter 40 - "Oh most justly famous author!...May each and all of you [Don Quixote, Sancho, Dulcinea] live down the infinite ages, for the pleasure and entertainment of those who shall live after you."
I just wish there was some way to "talk back" to him, don't you?
Marni, thanks for the link. It was interesting to read the the Church banned flaggelation at this time - the Inquisition prosecuted those practiced it, yet Merlin has proscribed it as the cure to lift the curse from Dulcinea. That reminds me - the duo cannot leave the duke and duchess just yet - Sancho hasn't completed the lashings! (Has he even begun them?) Do you get the feeling that the Duke and Duchess have time for yet another amusement?
Mippy
August 15, 2006 - 07:21 am
That wooden horse was not my favorite chapter.
Did Cervantes readers really find it funny to read about DQ and Sancho being that naive?
Is it me? I'm just not laughing.
Is Sancho really like a child, thinking they were flying?
JoanK
August 15, 2006 - 07:23 am
I particularly enjoyed Sancho in this sequence. His mixture of sense and nonsense is delightful.
Joan Pearson
August 15, 2006 - 07:24 am
Mippy, did Sancho believe they were flying? I can see that Don Q did - but Sancho was questioned the voices, he was"peeking" too - He made up that story about seeing those colored goats...knowing that no one could argue it with him. I think this was my favorite part of this episode. I'm not so sure Sancho believes they were flying.
JoanK - love your smile!
Mippy, maybe it takes a certain sense of humor to laugh at the ridiculous. (Maybe it's more than that - maybe it's watching someone take the ridiculous seriously?) Do clowns make you laugh? Is Maryal laughing at this episode?
marni0308
August 15, 2006 - 09:14 am
JoanK: I particularly loved Sancho in this sequence, too! For me, Sancho is the star character in DQ.
I think Sancho questioned whether they were flying, too. His reaction to the flying was like his reaction in the boat when he could see their animals on the shore after they were supposed to have have gone many miles on the river.
I wonder how long it took the Duke's staff to build the horse. This was something that made me think that this charade had been planned way in advance of DQ's arrival.
Deems
August 15, 2006 - 06:29 pm
I'm trying to think of something insightful to say about these two chapters, but nothing is coming to me. I do like to follow Sancho's responses and actions. He tries to get himself excused from this adventure and he makes a good point when he says that in the stories of famous knights, the squires never even get a mention.
He also tells us how comfortable an animal his grey is and all about his silken saddle. He really doesn't want to get on that wooden horse.
The elaborate means to which the Duke and Duchess go to create the sense of flight from the bellows to the small torches they light so DQ and Sancho will think they are flying nearer to the sun are creative, I suppose.
But I don't like the Duke and Duchess. They may have gotten enough entertainment out of their cruelty to last a lifetime, but I think they've had enough fun.
I did learn that the Pleiades were known as the seven goats. But only from Grossman's footnote.
Joan P--One of the stamps has DQ and Pancho on the wooden horse.
Perhaps the earth will open and they will be swallowed by it?
Maryal
Mippy
August 16, 2006 - 05:32 am
Maryal ~ How nice to read your post, as I've also found it difficult to say anything constructive about these chapters.
In this 21st century full of angst, it's hard to place oneself on a wooden horse with DQ. I'll keep trying, but
escapism at this level is not easy, this week. Comments?
Joan Pearson
August 16, 2006 - 06:15 am
Good morning weary horsewomen!
Like Sancho, many of us have been uncomfortable with wooden horses and would prefer to return to our old mules donkeys and the dusty trail.
It's funny that much is made of the "flight" - yet NOTHING really happened, did it? And it was Soooo short! There wasn't much time or room for "escapism"- I'll agree with you on that, Mippy. Even with blindfolds off, watching the delighted faces of the duke and duchess...
I'm wondering if Cervantes' readers were as lukewarm with the wooden horse episode as we seem to be? I won't put her on the spot, but would love to know Amparo's thoughts on the whole drawn out affair. Did you notice that Cervantes used these words at the start of chapter 41. Amparo, does Raffel's translation come close to the Spanish?
"The arrival of the magic horse, and the end of this long, drawn-out adventure."
Do you think Cervantes was feelin' it too?
Let's spend ONE MORE DAY on this episode - maybe try to understand what Cervantes did accomplish with it. Did you find anything to like here? Did you learn anything? -
Maryal - Raffel tells that the Pleiades were known as the seven goats too. I am guessing that Cervantes' readers knew that. For me, this answers our earlier question about Cervantes' use of the number "twelve" - it was in the celestial, astrological sense, I think.
-
Marni,
JoanK,
Maryal - I think that this was Sancho's chapter too. We sure learn a lot about him. His character has developed, hasn't it? He isn't intimidated by anyone is he? Notice how he speaks to the Duke himself. The only thing that reins him in is this promise of that island. Cervantes gets in his digs when the duke suggests that high office can only be achieved with bribes. Sancho understands this sort of argument.
What I will take from this chapter - Don Q's comment to Sancho when urging him to get in some of those lashings before they set off on the horse...and Sancho wants to wait till they return.
"To have a job started, is to have it half finished."
Isn't that the truth? I thought of this wise piece of information TWICE yesterday when I found myself putting off getting to work on formidable projects.
- Another thing I appreciated this week -
Marni's informative link to Flagellation in which we learned that Sancho's lashings were banned by the church at this time - and that the Inquisition prosecuted this sort of thing!
Have a good day...and cheer up,
Mippy - tomorrow the horse will be sawdust!
hats
August 16, 2006 - 07:06 am
I liked the wooden horse. I just can't pronounce his name. I have begun to think that the duchess and duke aren't as mean as I thought. Planting the lance with the words that Don Q had completed his adventure made Don Q feel good, like he had accomplished his quest.
It's incredible how the Don and Sancho think they have gone through wind and fire. Sancho thinks he's been close to the Pleaides and describes the colors.
What's going to happen next?
Marni thank you for the flagellation link. I am going to reread it.
Deems
August 16, 2006 - 10:58 am
Joan P--Grossman has, at the front of Chap 41, "Regarding the arrival of Clavileno, and the conclusion of this lengthy adventure."
"Lengthy" is kinder than "long drawn out," and I wonder which is closer. Surely Cervantes was poking a little fun at himself for such a long telling of the stay with the Duke.
Hats--You are a breath of fresh air. It makes me feel happy that someone appreciates the adventure with the wooden horse.
Thought of one more thing to say about this section:
In the beginning of chap 41, after the Dolorous One has once again urged DQ to undertake the adventure since their beards are growing rapidly, DQ responds "That I shall do, Senora Countess Trifaldi, very willlingly and even more joyfully, not troubling to find a cushion or put on spurs in order not to delay, so great is the desire I have to see you, Senora, and all these duennas, smooth-faced and clean."
The very next paragraph contains Sancho's response, "That I shall not do," said Sancho, "by no means, not willingly or any other way; and if this shaving can't be done unless I climb onto those hindquarters, then my master can find another squire to accompany him. . ." and goes on until it is about five times the length of DQ's response.
What I love here is Cervantes' use of parallelism which I always enjoy, especially when opposite points are made in the same grammatical structure. Not sure why I like it so much, but I do.
Maryal
hats
August 16, 2006 - 11:03 am
Maryal Well, shall I let my enthusiasm show??? I loved the wooden horse. I could just see Don Q and Sancho riding through the air. I am glad you loved this adventure too. I have fallen in love with Cervantes. I wish he were alive. We could go to one of his book signings.
Deems
August 16, 2006 - 11:05 am
Related to the discussion, not a puppy this time folks.
Deems
August 16, 2006 - 11:07 am
It's probably too large, but I don't yet know the rules on what numbers to read to figure out if it is within SeniorNet's guidelines.
We need to get some of these stamps, Hats.
hats
August 16, 2006 - 11:10 am
Maryal I love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is the perfect wooden horse. Just as I pictured it in my mind. Look at Sancho's hat! This is just too good!
1amparo
August 16, 2006 - 06:13 pm
"The arrival of the magic horse, and the end of this long, drawn-out adventure."
This is what Cervantes wrote as in his manuscript: "De la venida de Clavileño, con el fin desta dilatada aventura" = "Of the arrival of Clavileño, with the end of this extended adventure".
As you can see (those of you who can read Spanish), Cervantes does not mention "magic horse". And he must had realized that the story was far too long. And to me a little bit boring too.
Cheers.
Amparo
Joan Pearson
August 16, 2006 - 08:17 pm
Actually, the time spent on the horse was so brief - I'm wondering if we are feeling it is "lengthy" OR "drawn out" or "extended" or "far too long" (thank you for bringing us the Spanish, mi comadre - dilatada aventura - because we want them to leave this "castle" and get on with the story. They have been stalled with the Man in the Green Overcoat and his Duchess for some time now.
Hats, I'll bet you love carousels and ferris wheels too, don't you? There was nothing violent, no malevolence...no enchanters in this adventure. It was instead invigorating...playful when you consider the goats and Sancho's fib.
Maryal, the parallelism you speak of keeps us on our toes, doesn't it? Sancho really did want to see the dueñas' faces all cleaned up - but did not want to get on that horse and leave terra firma. It seems he did believe that the horse was magical and that they were going up up and away. But when they were supposed to be aloft, he seemed skeptical. No longer afraid, he became playful.
Wasn't it interesting to get a glimpse into the beauty secrets of the early 17th century? "...some of us have tried using sticking plasters and all kinds of gummy patches, and when we yank them off they leave us as smooth as the bottom of a grindstone...
...women go from house to house, taking off hair, plucking eyebrows and assisting women with other cosmetics..."
I love it when Cervantes lets us in on such details...he seems to have first-hand knowledge of a lady's boudoir!
marni0308
August 16, 2006 - 09:40 pm
Maryal: The STAMP! Wow! Cool! I was hoping we could see it!
I thought the horse episode was very funny. And it was cool seeing the lengths that the duke and duchess went to with the horse and all the special effects. Sancho, as usual, cracked me up. Imagine him and the Don allowing themselves to be blindfolded. I laughed when suddenly Sancho pulled up his blindfold to say something. It must have startled the Duke and Duchess and their gang. They were almost caught in the act. I kept hoping Sancho would do it again and see how they were being duped, but he didn't.
JoanP: I thought the detail was interesting, too. Interesting to see that the ladies plucked their eyebrows.
1amparo
August 16, 2006 - 10:48 pm
Very apt and cleverly named: clavi(=nails)leño(=log/firewood). Don't you think?
Amparo
hats
August 17, 2006 - 01:15 am
JoanP I love carousels, not the ferris wheel. The ferris wheel goes too high. If the fw stops and you are in the top seat, it swings. That drives me completely nuts!
Is that the meaning of the horse's name in Spanish? It is fitting. Amparo how would you say that in English?
1amparo
August 17, 2006 - 03:02 am
I take it you mean "cla-vi-le-ño?
cla, as in class, vi, as in vision, le, as in lesson, ño, as in...nyo? This last one is hard as English does not have the sound for Ñ ñ.
Cheers
Amparo
hats
August 17, 2006 - 04:35 am
Amparo thanks!
Joan Pearson
August 17, 2006 - 05:14 am
Good morning, Hats, Amparo - (it's odd to say good morning to someone who is getting ready for bed!)
Hats - I have a thing for carousels too. Actually, we would have been fine on Clavileño - I think of him as a carousel horse - never lifted up to the heavens as a ferris wheel would.
Maryal, if you find out where to find those stamps, pick up one for me too. I think I'm going to remember the name of the wooden horse from now on after seeing it on the stamp and learning the meaning - and pronunciation thanks to Amparo!
I wonder what the duke/duchess will do with Clavileño now that the amusement is over. Do you think they have a big storage shed somewhere?
So just like that the episode is over and Sancho is readying to leave for his island. When will he perform those lashings? Don Q. must stay in the castle and wait for his squire to fulfill this "punishment" before he can satisfy Merlin's curse. He's in limbo, isn't he? I love these chapters in which he doles out advice to Sancho on how to be a good governor. Does he seem at all resentful about the whole state of affairs?
More of the duke/duchess's handiwork. If they are trying to separate the master and squire, they are succeeding, aren't they?
ps - the stamp has been resized. To post a picture/illustration - in a book discussion, you need to right click on the stamp and then look in "properties" - if it is over 500 pixels in either dimension, it needs to be resized before you can post it.
Mippy
August 17, 2006 - 05:54 am
You ask: Are there any lefties out there? Yes, ego sum (I am).
Left-handedness has been called sinister or bad or evil for centuries.
But we lefties don't mind! We know we are the best!
hats
August 17, 2006 - 06:02 am
Mippy one of my son's is a leftie.
1amparo
August 17, 2006 - 06:15 am
I think these ones belong to a private collection. They were illustrated by
Antonio Mingote Barrachina, member of the Real Academia Española.
If you click on to "next" at top of the page, you will be able to see more of these stamps. "Correos y Telegrafos" is Spanish National Post Office.
Stamps by Mingote; Post Office Amparo Thursday 17 August. 10:45 pm. Am off to bed
hats
August 17, 2006 - 06:34 am
Oh, they are soooo cute! I don't think it's possible to enlarge the stamps, is it?
JoanK
August 17, 2006 - 08:48 am
MIPPY: I'm another lefty! We know we're the best it right!
I have my mouse set up for the left hand (the keys are reversed). It drives anyone else who tries to use my computer nuts. Sweet revenge for all the scissors, right handed desks in school, etc., etc.
The stamps are great! I'd forgotten all the birds in the cave.
Deems
August 17, 2006 - 08:59 am
Joan P--I took this down to 25% of original. Problem with photobucket is it doesn't allow sizing except for 75, 50, 25%. I don't know how to get the original, which was just over 500 pixels one direction down to just under.
Deems
August 17, 2006 - 09:00 am
Here's 50% but I think it's still too big. 25% is definitely too small.
Never mind, it didn't work. Sigh.
Joan Pearson
August 17, 2006 - 09:10 am
Maryal, if you would right click your mouse on the stamp and then click "properties" you can see that both stamps are well under the 500 pixel dimension limit. You did just fine! Stop sighing!!!
My son is a lefty too. What's funny - in our family, my mother's brother, my uncle George was a lefty, the fourth child in the family. Among my brothers and sisters, my brother Don, fourth in the birth order, was the only left hander. Among my four sons, the fourth, Will, is the only left hander. They all have artistic talent.
So, what did you lefties think of being lumped together with the illiterate? With the low-born. Poor Sancho...he couldn't READ or WRITE. How does Don Q. know if he's left-handed? My son WRITES and EATS with his left hand, but plays sports - throws, bats, etc. with his RIGHT hand.
I really enjoyed Don Q's advice for Sancho. Where on earth did he get all of this knowledge and wisdom? From his books of chivalry?
Deems
August 17, 2006 - 10:42 am
JoanP--Yes, I can see that it is little. What I wanted to do was make it about the size that you resized the other image to and I can't figure out how to do that given the limited options at Photobucket. Sigh.
My son is also left-handed. There used to be a test for handedness that you performed with child in high chair. If child seemed to be left or right handed (from observation), you placed a desired object all the way to the opposite side of the tray. My son reached for the toy truck all the way across his body with his left hand to retrieve it. Daughter and I are ambidextrous. I use whichever hand is closest, especially when cooking or working on a project.
Poor Sancho. DQ is now lecturing our currently favorite character.
marni0308
August 17, 2006 - 01:54 pm
Amparo: Those stamps are FABULOUS!!!
Wow, a lot of lefties in or related to our small group. I heard just last night on the news that only 10% of the world's population are lefties. My son is a lefty, also. I'm not sure where he gets it. None of my family or Bob's family (our generation) are lefties that I'm aware of. But, Dan and all of his cousins on Bob's side are lefties.
Now that I think about it, I wonder if my brother is left-handed. He's ambidextrous. Maybe he was left-handed and forced to use his right hand, which happened a lot with my generation.
My son took guitar lessons when he was in high school. We bought him a left-handed guitar and that's how he learned. Now he's mad that he didn't learn right-handed because whenever he visits someone who has a guitar and Dan feels like playing a bit, he can't because they're always right-handed guitars.
Isn't that weird that they have to make separate things for lefties? Like scissors. Dan could never use regular scissors. We had to buy him left-handed scissors.
marni0308
August 17, 2006 - 02:00 pm
Well, I can't brag about being a rare lefty. But HAH! I have a rare blood type. I found out when we practiced testing our blood types in college Zoology class. I'm type AB (positive). Only 3% of the world's population is AB. We're called the "universal receiver" because we can receive any blood type - as opposed to type O which is the "universal donor." I thought that was pretty cool.
hats
August 18, 2006 - 02:51 am
JoanP I loved Don Q's fatherly speech to Sancho too. For some reason, his sage advice almost made me cry. I think the whole speech is full of meaning and practical for everyday life. I am glad Don Q told Sancho to remain humble. I think Sancho can forget about being humble in a New York minute, really quickly. Don Q says "Take pride in the humbleness of your lineage, and do not disdain to say that you come from peasants..."
I also liked Don Q's advice about virtue. "Virtue in and of itself has a value that blood does not." Everything Don Q said to Sancho is worth trying to remember in any century by any human being.
While reading Don Q's speech, I had this aching feeling that there journey together is coming to a close end. That might mean my emotions are out of control.
Don Q doesn't seem jealous or envious that Sancho is going to have a governorship before he becomes emperor of some land. Maybe Don Q knows all of the offerings of the Duke and Duchess are not true. Maybe Don Q is becoming too tired with age to care much about becoming an emperor. Maybe the Don's dream quest or goals will change before the end of the book.
hats
August 18, 2006 - 03:03 am
Don Q mentions Sancho and garlic again. I know Sancho loves to eat. I guess he loves garlic too. Don Q has mentioned more than once Sancho, garlic, and onions. "Do not eat garlic or onions lest their smell reveal your peasant origins."
Then, Don Q mentions not wearing long nails. Amparo did men in Spain during that century wear very long nails? "Trim your nails and not allow them to grow, as some men do whose ignorance has led them to believe that long nails beautify their hands..."
Don Q's speech is getting pretty long. My tears have dried up. I am ready for him to end his fatherly advice and go for a new adventure. Long lectures finally become boring no matter how wise the words.
Mippy
August 18, 2006 - 05:39 am
Doesn't DQ sound like Polonius, here?
Never a borrower nor a lender be ... never eat garlic ...
1amparo
August 18, 2006 - 06:12 am
No, I don't have an idea about nails and if they were supposed to be short or long, I would imagine the former to keep them clean??
Here are some illustrations.
Cervantes women. by Rojas
Joan Pearson
August 18, 2006 - 06:13 am
Good morning - and belated birthday wishes (yesterday) to our TWINS ~
Let's celebrate!
Today is a special and a busy day at our house too - 4th son, Will, (the lefty) celebrates his birthday - on our our wedding anniversary! Happy birthday, Leos!
Is PatH a lefty, too, JoanK? (we can justify the posting of the photo as both pictured are members of our posse, (we are looking for you, PatH!) and at least one of them is left-handed - as our Sancho might be.
Hats, it sounds to me like Don Quixote is commenting on all of Sancho's shortcomings - garlic breath, long dirty nails,
left-handedness) - all the things a parent might be concerned about when sending a child out into the world.
I remember the night before first son went off to college. I noticed he was holding his dessert spoon - in his fist, like a baby would grasp a spoon. David, I said, like this - and tried to show him how to hold his spoon correctly. Of course, he was insulted and got up and left the table. When you have four boys, and the first learns to hold his own spoon (in any fashion), you move on to the next. Poor D. - I never noticed how he was holding his spoon until the night before he went away.
Mippy - you're right of course, a lot of Don Q's advice is very sage. He would make an excellent ruler if he followed it. (So would Cervantes!)
Sancho is as weary as you are,
Hats hahaha, sure, write this all down and he'll have someone read it to him if he gets a chance!
I keep forgetting that Sancho isn't going anywhere to govern - that this is just more of the duke and duchess's amusement - or is it?
Marni - they make scissors now that can be used by both righties and lefties. But guitars for lefties??? My lefty son plays both guitar and mandolin. I've never heard him talk about a special guitar for lefties! Maybe he'd play better if he had one?
hats
August 18, 2006 - 06:38 am
JoanP have a happy day with the family.
I must have read that part wrong. I had the idea that Don Q was talking about very long nails worn by men as a style trend.
Amparo those pictures are beautiful.
hats
August 18, 2006 - 06:54 am
"trim your nails and not allow them to grow, as some men do whose ignorance has led them to believe that long nails beautify their hands, as if those superfluous growths that they refuse to cut were nails, when they are actually the claws of a lizard-eating kestrel..."
It seems that some men felt that long nails beautified their hands. This is why I wondered whether this was a fashion trend for men, maybe rich men, in Spain during that century.
Mippy
August 18, 2006 - 07:04 am
PatH and JoanK ~
Happy Happy Birthday ! !
and Happy Birthday to Will, your lefty son, JoanP!
Advise to families of lefties from an ol' lefty:
Don't give left-handers special tools! I'm so glad I learned to knit, play guitar, and "mouse" with my right hand! Now my right hand is just as strong as my left, and I can use others' computers easily.
Joan Pearson
August 18, 2006 - 07:05 am
Thanks, Hats, Mippy!! Mippy, when my Will broke his wrist, he learned to bat and play tennis with the other hand - and became a switch hitter for ever after that...
Hats - it sure sounds as if there were some who indulged in such excesses - I think it would have to have been the nobility, don't you? Can you see the duke's nails from where you are sitting?
Did you note the conflicting advice Don Q. gives to Sancho? After advising his NEVER to forget that he is a peasant, to be proud of his ancestry, he dwells on the necessity of getting rid of all the appearances of his low and humble origins so no one will know - implying the low birth is a deficiency in governance!
Thank you so much for the illustrations, Amparo - and for this one you emailed me this morning - is it a stamp? We'll recognize our Clavileño long after this discussion is over -
hats
August 18, 2006 - 07:07 am
Oh, that's soooooo cute!!
Traude S
August 18, 2006 - 07:21 am
AMPARO, thank you for the wonderful link to the mujeres de Cervantes y de Don Quijote.
Of special interest, I believe, is the picture that identifies the country lass Aldonza Lorenza, whom Alonzo Quixano may have known slightly (or admired from afar) before he reinvented himself as Don Quijote, as Dulcinea - though in parentheses.
DQ dispenses lengthy fatherly advice to Sancho, as he would to a son. Sometimes his extended orations are a bit ponderous, especially when we might want him to come to the point faster.
JOAN P, ah, but it can be hazardous to predict what Cervantes has in store for Sancho and for the readers. Let's not be hasty!!
The only lefty in my family was a cousin. She and my aunt visited one summer when she was five, and I a year younger. I still remember the constant slapping of the offending hand, the relentless admonitions at table and the tears, and I was relieved when they left.
Happy Birthday to JOAN K and PAT H.
hats
August 18, 2006 - 07:28 am
Happy Birthday to JoanK and Pat H!!
1amparo
August 18, 2006 - 07:32 am
HAPPY BELATE BIRTHDAY GIRLS. And WILL too, HAPPY BIRTHDAY! JoanP. This last illustration of our heroes and Clavileño is a draw, about 10inches long and it is part, along several other photos and illustrations, of a children's book of Don Quijote (Editorial Sedmay)
LOL Traude,I think you KNOW a lot!
Amparo
Traude S
August 18, 2006 - 07:37 am
True, JOAN P, but DQ has made contradictory remarks before.
And he has also put Sancho "in his place" before in patronizing terms in the presence of the duke and duchess, for example. It's the class difference again - between knight and squire, the high-born and the low-born, etc. etc. ad infinitum.
marni0308
August 18, 2006 - 02:35 pm
Oh, another great stamp! And wonderful pictures of the ladies!
HAPPY BIRTHDAY, JOAN AND PAT!!
I just read over the end of chapter 42. Sancho did peek some more! I had forgotten! But then he told a tale about how he had seen the seven nannies (Pleiedes) and he saw a glimpse of the earth below "which seemed no bigger than a grain of mustard, and the men that walked upon it almost as little as hazel nuts; so you may guess how high we must have soared by that time."
The Don whispered in his ear a bit later, "Heark ye, Sancho; since you would have us believe what you say, touching the things you saw in heaven, I desire the like credit from you, with regard to those things I saw in the Cave of Montesinos. That's all."
Doesn't this sound like both Sancho and the Don know full well that each of them are making it all up?
Marni
marni0308
August 18, 2006 - 02:57 pm
I looked this up and found a couple of things about long fingernails on men, but I couldn't find anything about them on Spanish men:
"In some Asian cultures men may also grow long fingernails, or only the nail on the little finger, to show that they do not do much manual labor, but instead work in an office setting. However, this practice is gradually becoming unpopular and unrefined because a long fingernail on the little finger is associated with nose picking.
Some guitar players, notably classical and fingerstyle players, will purposely grow long nails on the hand they use to pluck the strings. Their longer nails serve as small, easily-maneuverable guitar picks. Care thereof becomes a daily ritual and a mark of pride. Though this attention may seem effeminate, it is a mark of the dedication that accompanies the serious musician.....
...In some West European cultures (mainly Portugal) youth grow their little finger and thumb fingernails long, both men and female alike."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nail_(anatomy) "Calusa [South American] males and females sharpened their long fingernails and toenails to points and used them as weapons."
http://www.sun-herald.com/2000/hist1.htm 16th Century Chinese practice: "....priests, literatae, wealthy merchants and nobles in Japan often boasted long fingernails on at least one pinkie, i.e., some finger. (1 ) The practice is originally Mandarin-Chinese. (2) Since the Japanese adopted/adapted many Chinese practices. Rada and Cruz, respectively, on 16th century China:
The men often let the fingernails of one of their hands grow very long, and are very proud thereof, as we saw by many of them whose fingernails were as long as their fingers. (trans. Boxer:B:SCSC)
There are some Chinas who wear very long finger-nails, from half a span to a span long, which they keep very clean; and these finger-nails do serve them instead of the chop-sticks for to eat withal. (ibid)
The Portuguese editor for the Cruz reprint writes that the nails were coated with silver (baínhas de prata). He also notes that no other documentation on eating with nails has been found. No documentation, perhaps, but the idea got around. Here is Bulwer a century later:
In China some of them weare Nailes of half a quarter and a quarter long, which they keep very cleane; and these Nailes do serve them instead of Forkes to eate withall; the use of silver Forkes which our Gallants so much used of late was no doubt an imitation of this. (B:A)
Bulwer writes tongue-in-cheeke, but chopsticks – called just “sticks” by the Portuguese and Spaniards – were often Englished as forks. Dyer Ball, mercifully drops the chopstick idea, and gives a late-19th century explanation:
Long finger-nails are not considered a sign of dirtiness, but of respectability, and of being above manual labour, which, if necessary, would of course prevent them from attaining such length as an inch and a half, two inches, or even three, though it is seldom one sees them all of equal length on all the fingers. It is well that such is the case, as two or three on one or both hands give such a claw-like appearance to the fingers as to make them sufficiently repulsive; fortunately hand-shaking is not in vogue in China, as it would be extremely unpleasant to feel the long talons gripping one’s hand."
http://www.paraverse.org/topsysample.htm
hats
August 18, 2006 - 02:57 pm
Marni thanks. You always do good research. Well, I never knew any of those facts, really interesting.
Deems
August 18, 2006 - 05:22 pm
Happy Birthday, Joan K and Pat H !!!!!
Happy Anniversary, Joan P and Bruce, and Happy Birthday to Will.
All this talk of long fingernails reminds me of the American Eccentric, Airplane guru and Hollywood mogul, Howard Hughes. He became a recluse the last, what, decade, I think, of his life. No photos and no real news of him. When he finally surfaced again he looked skeletal (he had always been tall and thin) and had enormously long, even grotesque fingernails.
I'd think that the information about those who did not have to do manual labor being able to grow their nails and longer nails thus being a sign of class in the early seventeenth century is right on target. Also, given the eating habits of the time, I'll bet that long fingernails were useful for picking teeth after eating.
DQ does get a little ponderous at times, doesn't he? I thought of Polonius's advice to his son too, Mippy. But I read recently in the biography I have that Cervantes was genuinely fond of peasants, finding them more real than their "betters."
Hats, you do bring up the most interesting topics, like long fingernails, for instance!
I'll be spending much of tomorrow writing a syllabus for this new semester which starts on Monday. Yipe! Monday. I will keep up with DQ, but the first couple weeks of classes is generally pretty tough. Have to learn all those names and try to get them thinking in productive directions. First semester is harder than second because they have been exhausted and trained to death during Plebe Summer.
May this current weather hold. It is hot during the days, but the humidity is tolerable.
Maryal
marni0308
August 18, 2006 - 08:06 pm
Mippy: The Don did remind me of Polonius. And his speech really did go on and on (snore.)
He did say a couple of things to Sancho that caught my eye....
"Thou, who in comparison to me, art doubtless, an ignorant dunce, without rising early, or sitting up late, or, indeed, exerting the least industry; more or less without any effort, than that of being breathed upon by knight-errantry, seest thyself created governor of an island, as if it was a gift from above. All this I observe, O Sancho, that thou mayest not attribute thy success to thy own deserts; but, give thanks to heaven for having disposed matters so beneficently in thy behalf...."
[If I were Sancho, I'd be saying to myself, "Gee, thanks a lot!"]
"If you send for your wife, and, indeed, those who are concerned in governing, ought not to be long without their helpmates, take pains in teaching, improving, and civilizing her: for, all that a sagacious governor can acquire, is very often lost and squandered by a foolish, rustic wife." [I keep seeing indications that Cervantes does not admire many women.]
1amparo
August 18, 2006 - 10:38 pm
I have been searching for the source of the drawings of Antonio Albarran, the last picture of "Clavileño" is by him. And finally fund it.
Not small deed as my server has reduced the speed on my broadband due to me been past my 1000MB. So until Monday when my cycle starts again my speed for downloads is as dial-up...never mind!
Now, going back to those drawings: They are in an illustrated book for children of Don Quijote. The ISBN 8430598677. Published by Susaeta in 2001, 193 pages. Illustrations by A. Albarran & A. Perera. Amazon has a collective one for $29 dollars. Not bad compared to a well known book store in Spain, their price 50 Euros plus another E50 more for postage!
I have asked Spanish Post Office about the stamps. Shall let you know if and when they answer. When the stamps were printed I think their price was 3 Euros for a sheet (12 assorted) of them.
Cheers all.
Amparo
kidsal
August 19, 2006 - 12:55 am
I Googled "Spanish postage stamps Don Quixote" and a number of sites came up that sell such stamps. Also DQ stamps from other countries.
hats
August 19, 2006 - 02:02 am
Maryal Happy Back to School Days to You! I knew these days were coming for you to return to school. I enjoyed this summer with you and Don Quixote. I know you will check on us.
Kidsal and Amparo That's good information about the cute stamps.
Joan Pearson
August 19, 2006 - 07:30 am
THANKS, all! - we did have a wonderful day yesterday...although it got quite hectic for a while and we both collapsed earlier than planned. We did celebrate the day before though, knowing that sharing with Will's birthday would fill the day yesterday.
Maryal, we will certainly miss you...but know you are too much a part of this endeavor to stay away for too long. You're hooked! I'll bet you come in here for comic relief when the syllabus writing gets too cumbersome. What will you be teaching this semester? Can you say?
kidsal - Thank you for checking - I agree that a Quixote stamp would be a wonderful memento of this discussion. Amparo - Let's say the post office answers - how difficult would it be for you to get them from Spain to Australia. If you could get them to the US in October, we could reimburse you and distribute them once they are in the country. I've got fingers crossed that this will work out!
Speaking of fingers and all this talk about fingernails I notice I need a manicure. Marni - good research on long nails on men. "In some West European cultures (mainly Portugal) youth grow their little finger and thumb fingernails long." Portugal is close enough. Youth aren't yet into manual labor to support families. And in some Asian cultures men grew nails long to show they didn't do manual labor. Guitar players have leisure time to strum - I agree that this is what Cervantes was getting at...the nails of the idle rich. So Don Q. is advising Sancho to keep his nails trimmed - not to let governance change him, perhaps. Can you see that happening?
It's interesting listening to the author's thoughts behind the words he puts into the mouths of his characters. Maryal, I can see what your biographer wrote - "that Cervantes was genuinely fond of peasants, finding them more real than their "betters."
But what do you think of Marni's comment - that Cervantes does not admire many women? Don Q. seems to be telling Sancho that he'd be better off without Teresa - next time marry a high-born lady - or at least a beautiful one! This seems to be a recurring theme, doesn't it? The question is - does Cervantes believe his portrayals, or is he criticizing the ideals found in the books of chivalry popular at this time?
Coffee break - there's a lot to think about this morning. You were busy yesterday!
Joan Pearson
August 19, 2006 - 07:59 am
On Don Q's truthfulness:
Marni it does sound as if Don Q and Sancho are agreeing to believe one another's wild visions. I do believe that Sancho has made up his tales of playing with the colored goats - BUT do you really think that Don Q has created his vision? I think I see him unsure as to whether it was all a dream, since it was so preposterous. Maybe it means that he's giving Sancho the benefit of the doubt. Sancho's story is as unbelievable as Don Q's vision in Montesinos cave!
On Governing an Island:
Do you sense any resentment that Sancho, who is so unsuited for governing has received his reward BEFORE the worthier Don Quixote, who has so much knowledge of what makes a good governor? Marni has quoted a passage in which Don Q. lets out his frustration that heaven has seen fit to give him this position without Sancho deserving or earning it. He hasn't even administered those lashes!
After a go-round with Sancho on his four proverbs, Don Q. expresses great concern that he'll turn the whole island topsy turvey...and that this will reflect badly on himself. He wonders if he shouldn't prevent this from happening by telling the duke the truth - that inside the fat grubby little person, there's only a bag stuffed with proverbs and perversity. Sounds like resentment to me.
Sancho seems ready to give up if Don Q. doesn't see him worthy...he'd rather go to Heaven as just plain Sancho than go to Hell as governor. What's not to like about him? To be fair, Don Q. tells him that he's a good man by nature and because of that he's worthy to be the governor of a thousand islands. (I hear Cervantes here, commenting on those who are in power now as not "naturally good men.") That's a vote of confidence in Sancho and his mishmash of proverbs, don't you think?
Traudee, I'll try to take your advice - I tend to get into the story when I make my predictions. Maybe "predictions" is too strong a word. How about "hunches"? Remember I have never read this nor have I gone ahead. I believed that the Countess was Doña Rodrigues and look who she turns out to be! I believed that Teresa will take Sancho's letter to the priest (because she can't read) and that he and the barber will make an appearance - now that they know where to find Don Q. and his squire. I expect too that Sanson Carrasco will make a return - and suspect him behind every face that is veiled or shrouded in any way...But I will keep these suspicions to myself in the future - well, I'll try!
OH yes, Traudee - it is those wonderful contradictory remarks that I have begun to anticipate...Cervantes is the master! There are several coming up in these next two chapters!
Let's read on and see how Sancho does as "governor." I have to keep reminding myself that this whole governorship is just another charade concocted by the duke and duchess for their amusement. I find the next chapter wonderfully amusing. Can't wait to hear what you think!
JoanK
August 19, 2006 - 09:08 am
HAPPY ANNIVERSARY, JOAN AND BRUCE! AND HAPPY BIRTHDAY, WILL!
"Doesn't this sound like both Sancho and the Don know full well that each of them are making it all up?"
I'm not so sure. Here again is the confusion between fantasy and reality that is so intriguing in Cervantes. I believe that both of them, have convinced themselves that they really saw these things.
I think I enjoyed the adventure of the horse the most of all the "adventures" we have read. Yes, it was mean of the Count and Countess. But it gives us a chance to see DonQ and Sancho at their best.
I love the fact that Sancho makes men bigger than the world. He sticks to it, even when his mistake is pointed out. Is this more of C's sarcasm?
hats
August 19, 2006 - 09:20 am
Happy Anniversary JoanK and Bruce!!! Excuse me if I have already written my joyful thoughts for you JoanP. Sometimes I can't remember and I miss doing something special. I know you did have a double day of joy yesterday. How wonderful!
Mippy
August 19, 2006 - 02:46 pm
Ahhhh, at last, Sancho is a governor.
But it is not an insula, which means island.
It's another one of the Duke's pranks. Poor Sancho ... or not?
marni0308
August 19, 2006 - 03:17 pm
It really made me laugh when Sancho and the Don "returned" from their horse ride and found the duke and duchess lying down seemingly in a faint or trance. What rascals! And Cervantes told us that they had enough amusement from the episodes with Sancho and the Don to laugh about for the rest of their lives. I guess so!!
I didn't think as I went along that Sancho was going to get his insula. And then I saw the stamp with Sancho looking like he was performing duties like a governor. So, I thought AHAH! It has to be another of the duke's little amusements. I must hurry up and read the next 2 chapters.....I'll be back.
Deems
August 19, 2006 - 03:20 pm
Mippy--Well, it kinda depends on how well Sancho governs, doesn't it?
I, for one, if a resident of a village, would rather have Sancho govern me than DQ! Sancho has so much common sense that even though he can't read, he will do well, I think, governing. DQ might conscript the whole village and encourage them to go off as knights errant!
On all those proverbs that Sancho is so full of that he is in danger of bursting--DQ fruitlessly tries to get Sancho to give them up, but all he gets is more of the same.
By the way, did anyone notice that those maxims that DQ delivers to Sancho, the ones that remind us of Polonius, are pretty close to proverbs themselves. They are short wise sayings. Grossman has a footnote on Cato in Chap XLII. DQ says., "Now, with your heart disposed to believe what I have told you, pay heed, my son, to your Cato."
Here's Grossman's footnote: "The author of a book of aphorisms, Disticha Catonis, which was so popular a text in schools that primers were called "Catos."
Because Polonius was also so fond of Cato's maxims, I think we can assume that this text was popular in English grammar schools as well.
Why do I feel as if Ginny is leaning over my shoulder?
Maryal
1amparo
August 19, 2006 - 06:08 pm
HAPPY ANNIVERSARY TO THE LUCKY COUPLE!. May you enjoy many more together.
JoanP it would be my pleasure to bring stamps to US if I can get them. It is in fact my point on trying to get them: to share a bit of Spain with you all.
Mippy, in Spanish INSULA does not mean island; it means a small place or village, more like a hamlet.
Amparo
Traude S
August 19, 2006 - 06:41 pm
JOAN P,
I agree that the Don did voice nquite a bit of resentment when he learned how quickly Sancho was to leave for his governorship (chapter 42), with the permission of the duke
" ... he took Sancho by the hand and went with him to his room, intending to advise him on how he was to behave as governor.
When they had entered his bedchamber, Don Quixote closed the door behind him and almost forced Sancho to sit down beside him, and in a tranquil voice he said :
I give infinite thanks to heaven, Sancho, my friend, that before and prior to my having found good luck, Fortune has come out to welcome and recxeive you. I, who had set aside a portion of my success as payment for your services, find myself at the very beginning of my advancement, and you, before it is time and contrary to the law of reasonable discourse, find yourself rewarded with all your desires. Others bribe, importune, solicit, are early risers, plead, persist, and do not achieve what they long for, and another comes along and without knowing how or why finds himself with the office and position that many others strove for; and here the saying certainly applies and is appropriate: aspirations are ruled by good and bad fortune. You, who in my opinion are undoubtedly a dolt, and who, without rising early or staying up late or making any effort whatsoever, with nothing more than the breath of knight errantry that has touched you, without further ado find yourself governor of an ínsula as if it were of no consequence." (etc.) Grosman, pp. 729-30. Emphasis mine.
In chapter 44 the reader learns that, after the last dinner, the duke and duchess
"were astonished once more at the madnes and intelligence of Don Quixote; and so, going forward with their deceptions, that afternoon they sent Sancho with a large retinue to the village that for him would be an ínsula." Grossman, p.738. Emphasis mine.
It is quite true that, as much as the Don complains about Sancho's quoting proverb after proverb, he himself comes pretty close (Grossman pg. 734) when he says "... Be moderate in your sleeping, for the man who does not get up with the sun does not possess the day ... remember that diligence is the mother of good fortune ..." etc.
The duke's steward who had so effectively impersonated the Countess Trifaldi stands ready to accompany Sancho, who notices the facial resemblance and mentions it to the Don. But the Don discounts the idea they they are one and the same.
The reader has to be concerned as to what Sancho may face when he is going to be watched every minute by the clever steward. I feel like cheering for Sancho!
Sancho did lie about the goats; the wooden horse never left the ground, but DQ tells Sancho in private that he is willing to believe him if Sancho in turn believes the visions DQ recounted when he came out of the Cave of Montesinos - a quid pro quo, in other words.
And isn't it in fact quite possible that the Don in his madness/exalted frame of mind might well have imagined what he said he experienced in the cave?
Traude S
August 19, 2006 - 06:58 pm
AMPARO - a Don Quixote stamp would be the crowning glory of this memorable discussion!
Cheers are in order!
1amparo
August 19, 2006 - 09:01 pm
On this occasion "cheers" could be somewhat premature: first I must get the stamps!
Cheers mate.
Amparo
hats
August 20, 2006 - 02:28 am
I think the Don and Sancho should remain together until the adventure ends or until death departs the two. They have gone through so much together. The Don does admit his loneliness for Sancho to the Duchess.
One of Sancho's good points is that he does have an eye for deception. He know the steward's voice, recognizing it as the one used by the Countess T. Without Sancho, the Don is a little bit naive, not worldly wise. Without the Don, I think the insula will become chaotic. The people of the kingdom only called to have a grand time at the banquets and listen to mixed up proverbs. So, Sancho needs the Don for his practical and wise advice which he is capable of giving as long as there is no talk of knight errantry. Knight errantry leads the Don to lose his sanity. He still is thinking about Dulcinea too.
I am also worried because the Don is wearing green stockings. He wishes for some green thread or silk to mend his stockings. I am going back and reread the posts on green.
Then, read the next chapter.
hats
August 20, 2006 - 02:42 am
I have read the long poem in Chapter forty-four. There is one word I would like to know about.
And then the most lustrous pearls,
each one as big as a gallnut.
I love pearls. So I would like to know about the gallnut. What is a gallnut? What does it look like? etc.
I think Sancho is doing very well giving advice to the people on his insula. I am surprised. I do feel uneasy about what will go wrong. There are a thousand people on this insula. That's a big kingdom.
Joan Pearson
August 20, 2006 - 05:37 am
Good morning! Possess the day! Is this the same as "seize the day"?>
"Be moderate in your sleeping, for the man who does not get up with the sun does not possess the day"
I'm loving these proverbs, aren't you? And so happy that more of you are catching up to us on the trail as we are on the downward slope of the mountain now. Do you notice when you pick up your book to read how the weight of the book is in your left hand!
Thank you for your good wishes, JoanK, Amparo,Hats - They mean a lot. The roses he gave me are still very fresh - some of them haven't even opened yet, so we continue the celebration!
It is interesting to note the growing number who enjoyed the adventure aboard Clavileño as you catch up with us. It seems to be an important one as it emphasized the differences between the knight and his squire - and on a larger scale, as JoanK writes - "the confusion between fantasy and reality"
It is intriguing to me the way Don Q. faces his struggle with the fantasy and reality. Traudee, I never once believed that Don Q was lying about his vision in the cave, though I do suspect that Sancho made up the whole thing about what he saw while aboard Clavileño - because he understood the reality of the situation - that they hadn't left the ground! Yes, I agree this is another example of Don Q's madness - like the windmills he was sure he saw as giants.
Another example of the way Don Q. is able to explain away reality - when Sancho remembers the duke's stewards voice, and his face - as the Countess Trifaldi. I marvelled at Don Quixote's response after he considers this - "Yes, Dolorida's face and this steward's face are one and the same, but that does not mean the steward actually IS Dolorida, since that would imply a colossal contradiction."
Two quick comments - Amparo, you get the "cheers" for TRYING to acquire the stamps, even if they are no longer available! We love you for thinking of such a thing - they wouldn't be hard to pack and get through security, would they!
Hats - I quickly checked the Raffel translation on the pearls - (more on that silly song later) - and he chooses to translate the Spanish word for the pearls as big as "walnuts" - we need Amparo's translation to see what Cervantes wrote. "Walnuts" make sense to me...
Mippy
August 20, 2006 - 06:49 am
Carpe diem, seize the day, indeed!
Ah, yes, Sancho the wise, Sancho the just, Sancho the fool ...
At last, a governor, or at least a mayor. Cervantes has been leading up to this moment for hundreds of pages.
Why am I not LOL? Sorry, it's poignant but not laughingly funny to me.
Joan Pearson
August 20, 2006 - 08:45 am
Good morning, Mippy! I think you aren't laughing out loud because there isn't anything risible...yet! Sancho is not really a governor, but he thinks he is. He wants to do a good job and is trying to remember everything Don Q has told him. I thought that the first ruling he made was funny, in that it all worked out - according to the parable. Both the farmer and the tailor learned their lesson, according to the proverb - neither a borrower or a lender be. Good work, Sancho.
I'm not so sure that the defiled woman was dealt justice though. I wasn't laughing, but the townspeople thought it was a wise decision. What did you think?
Maryal - would you prefer to be governed by a person with down home common sense to an educated man? (I can't think of a good example - Harry Truman perhaps?)
The steward has orders from the duke to send daily reports of how Sancho is doing as governor. Don't you wonder who is the true governor, or mayor of this "insula"? He better be aware that the townspeople might actually prefer Sancho's justice system. I think I remember reading here that SOME of the townspeople know it is a joke - but not all. What does that mean?
hats
August 20, 2006 - 08:59 am
I liked the judgment where the money was found in the cane.
Joan Pearson
August 20, 2006 - 09:22 am
I did too, Hats. I just reread the story of the woman who took money to lie with the pig farmer, who later claimed he had defiled her against her will. I watched Sancho's form of justice - he awarded the woman a huge amount of silver ducats. When she left, Sancho sent the farmer after her to bring it back. She fought so hard, the farmer couldn't get it from her. Hmmm...if he couldn't get the ducats, how did he get her most prized possession - without her consent?!
Do you still think Sancho's form of justice will create chaos? Will he diligently follow all of Don Q's advice? Will he even remember it? I wonder how long his idea of justice will please the people.
Really, Hats, I think the knight and the squire will be reunited before long. How long can Don Q. hang out at the castle without getting restless? Why is he there? Is he waiting for Sancho to administer the 3000 lashes? He'll get impatient, just you watch! In the meantime he's got the maidens throwing themselves at him -
I think this duchess is quite immoral. For a laugh, she'd like to see Don Q. succumb to the advances of her lady...maybe even all four of them! Did you laugh, Mippy, at Don Q...who praises the queen's morality after she has made him such an offer?
Oh yes, the green stockings! Don Q has been given quite a fancy wardrobe to wear about the castle. These are rich silk stockings - and they have quite a run in them. Sancho left behind some old field boots he plans to wear so no one can see the run. But the run reminded him of the virtues of charity, humility...poverty.
I thought it was interesting that the paragraph of comment on these Christian virtues came from the mouth of Sidi Benengeli. I find that when I read narrative comment in these pages, I assume that it is Cervantes speaking - UNLESS the name of Benengeli the Moor is invoked. Then I sit up and take notice of what he is saying...
Deems
August 20, 2006 - 09:38 am
Harry Truman???? O yes, JoanP, definitely yes. I wish his clone could be our next president. We need Harry these days. I don't mind some education mixed in, but we don't have that choice in Don Quixote.
My only choice was DQ or Sancho, and if I lived in a small village, I would prefer to have Sancho as mayor. True, he is illiterate, but he has learned a lot by listening, and he is intelligent, just not educated.
Still working on the syllabus.
M
Traude S
August 20, 2006 - 10:15 am
Yes, DQ felt lonely for Sancho and, according to Grossman, "if i had been possible for him to revoke the squire's mandate and take the governorship away from him, his master would have done so." Hmmmm
Adding to his misery is the torn silk stocking. If Sancho had still been there, he might have been able to find the right-color thread for the repair. But at least he left behind the boots that would hide the damage. Men are vein too!
The duchess seems determined "to get" the Don any way she can. She offers him four young maiden as chamber assistants, he declines and undresses by candlelight. Next he is serenaded by the supposedly love-struck (and apparently no less determined) Altisidora, but remains strong in his devotion to Dulcinea.
As for Sancho's decision in the case of the defiled woman, I think it made sense. He noticed how fiercely she held on to the money, hiding it on her person when she left. Sancho reconsidered his decision and sent the pig herder after her to bring her back.
He ordered her to hand the money back because, if she had defended her honor with the same tenacity and courage as she did the purse full of ducados, not even the strength of Hercules could have forced her.
Sancho had this warning for the pig herder, "Good man, go with God to your home with your money, and from now on, if you don't want to lose it, try to hold off your desire to lie with anybody."
Overall Sancho has done well thus far, the people were stunned, some thought he was the second Dolomon, even his minder, the steward, was impressed. How long before Sancho becomes too popular?
Traude S
August 20, 2006 - 03:43 pm
HATS, Google identifies "gallnut" (rather clumsily - IMHO) as
"A swelling (sic) that forms on the bark of an oak tree after it has been stung (sic) by an insect laying its eggs."
A second definition identifies the insects specifically as wasps .
Also called nutgall .
1amparo
August 20, 2006 - 05:23 pm
Cervantes wrote in his original: "...perlas, cada cual como una
agalla = gallnut.
IN Spanish. Tener agallas:
Dícese del que es muy valiente y fuerte ante la adversidad. = It is said of one who is brave and strong in adversity
Also means, in a vulgar rude way; to have balls. There, I have said it and I don't even blush anymore!
Tengo (=I have) agallas!!
(take it as you will) LOL.
Amparo
hats
August 21, 2006 - 02:10 am
Traude thank you! That is so interesting too. You learn something new everyday.
Amparao thank you too.
1amparo
August 21, 2006 - 03:12 am
I just received email from Correos, Spain. They advise that they no longer have any stamps of don Quijote by Mingote. Those stamps were published in 1998. I am sorry.
Amparo
Joan Pearson
August 21, 2006 - 05:27 am
Oh, Amparo, please don't feel badly! We all appreciate the thought and the effort! That's what counts here! More than the stamps, we value your friendship and guidance. Please, don't give the stamps another thought!
Now about those agallas...thanks Hats for raising the question in the first place. Once again, Raffel falls flat with his "walnuts" translation, doesn't he? What was he thinking? Thanks for the definition of a gallnut, Traude - and to you, Amparo for letting us know what Cervantes intended to say - and what his readers would understand.
I'm thinking this is rather an odd love song for the maiden to be singing to woo our Don Q. - She'd like to give him pearls as large and round as gallnuts? Don't you wonder how far Altisidora would go if Don Q. were to weaken and lose his resolve? How far has the duchess ordered her to go in this temptation? Would she pay Altisidora to compromise him?
(I'd like to think the lady would play a trick on him - similar to what Maritornes did when he stuck his finger in the opening in the "castle" wall - remember? When he was standing beneath the window on Rocinante's back?)
Between this attempt to compromise Don Quixote's chastity and the woman who took money to lie with the farmer and then lied about it, Cervantes isn't painting a very nice picture of the women of the time? They seem worse than weak and vulnerable maidens who cannot resist powerful men. They are scheming - I wonder what the duchess would pay Altisidora to seduce Don Q.?
I love the way Cervantes has alternated the castle and the insula scenes. We seem to be getting minute-by-minute reports - just as the duke and duchess are receiving from their spies.
Traudee, I'll agree, both Sancho and the Don seem to be doing quite well for the time being. But something has to give, don't you think? How long will Sancho be happy as governor? Has he forgotten all about Don Q.? How long can Don Q. hang about the castle, waiting for the enchantment to be lifted from Dulcinea and resist the maidens? I can't see Sancho pausing in his heady experience as governor to administer the necessary lashes, can you?
Traude S
August 21, 2006 - 08:55 am
It boggles the mind to realize to what length the duke and duchess are prepared to go in humiliating, even physically harming DQ and Sancho.
The governorship was based on deceit and certainly not intended to be permanent, even though the people in the village learned to appreciate Sancho during his brief tenure and compared him favorably to previous governors.
When I mentioned earlier that "all was well so far", or words to that effect, it was to point out that Sancho did quite well, and the feared chaotic conditions did not materialize.
JOAN P, to the modern reader at least, the duke and duchess are both totally unsympathetic characters; the duchess deserves to be called "immoral". It is she who thinks of ever new ways to torment the Don, and the help (Altisidora e.g.) is only too willing. And the duke takes great pleasure in hearing the detailed accounts.
Is it too far-fetched to see all these cabals, and those to come, as a struggle between good and evil?
P.S. Cervantes' own view of women comes into play in the novel, of course. It may have been ambiguous, perhaps one-sided, typical for that era.
He seems to have been preoccupied with beautiful, young girls (no more than teenagers, really, in our time) who were seduced, often by rich young men, and then abandoned. That is the dilemma of Doña Rodriguez' daughter now.
That Doña Rodriguez turns to DQ for help comes as a total surprise to the duke and duchess because it was not scripted by them. Of course they'll grab the reins on this one, too.
marni0308
August 21, 2006 - 09:20 am
Well, I just finished chpt 45 and I should say, Sancho certainly did do well. What a natural! He really was like a Solomon the Wise. I loved the cases he had to judge! That case about the woman would said she was ravaged and Sancho had her "ravager" give her his money purse and then try to take it away be force. Sancho proved she would have overpowered her attacker easily with her ferocity. I loved it!
Now I have to hurry my valiant steed onward and catch up.
judywolfs
August 21, 2006 - 01:35 pm
I got so far ahead in the reading that I was afraid to post a spoiler, so I took a little break from the discussion. Anyway, now to comment on posts from a few days ago:
When Sancho said his glimpse (from the “flying” wooden horse) of the earth below looked like a grain of mustard, with hazel nut size men - well, maybe he wasn’t actually lying, maybe he looked down and actually saw a real grain of mustard and some hazel nuts lying on the ground.
Fingernails:
I saw a photo long ago in (I think) the guinness book of records of a long-ago Chinese man with fingernails that were so long they actually curled and twisted around like ropes. It looked quite revolting to me. More recently I was told that people who snort cocaine sometimes used to keep one fingernail long enough to hold the coke to their nose. Again, revolting.
Left handed people: My father told me of getting whacked across the knuckles with a ruler when he was in elementary school; because he had started to use the “wrong” hand for writing.
~JudyS
Mippy
August 21, 2006 - 02:22 pm
You ask about the
little bells/cat joke?
It is more malevolence on the part of the Duke and Duchess!
Is there no end to their mean pranks?
How can our beloved DQ stay there? He does nothing but
heave a deep sigh, and then ... lay down on his bed ...
The narrative says the duke/duchess were saddened, but I think not.
Not having read ahead, I expect they're taking a moment to think of more
mischief.
Traude S
August 21, 2006 - 08:53 pm
Chapter 46,
1. DQ must have looked resplendent in all that finery: "the scarlet cloak, on his head a cap of green velvet adorned with silver trimmings..." "... his swordbelt with his good sharp blade" and "a large rosary that he always carried with him" must have made for an interesting combination.
Cervantes apparently paid a great deal of attention to the attire of men and women and had a very vivid sense of colors.
2. The duke and duchess are definitely getting more malevolent and intrusive. We haven't seen the last of the tricks. And the duchess is definitely more "creative" (and vindictive) than the duke. Tormenting DQ has become a public spectacle in the ducal compound.
3. DQ has the right idea when he says to Altisidora's friend,
"Señora, your grace should have a lute placed in my room tonight, and I shall do my best to console the suffering maiden, for at the very beginning of love, rapid disillusionments are usually considered remedies."
In other words, he means to DIScourage her.
Chapter 47.
1. Sancho is kept on a very meager diet by the doctor (whose name is a wordplay that does not come through in English, like many others) and rebelling mightily against the doctor's orders. After the duke's letter is read, Sancho really has reason to be concerned and says, "... for now give me a piece of bread and about four pounds of grapes, because they really can't be poisoned".
Elsewhere he says that he'd love to have bread and an onion.
3. No, Sancho has not forgotten the Don and his precepts, as we will soon see.
Now I have a question for AMPARO that I meant to ask for some time.
In Grossman's translation, all the unmarried, even the extremely young women are addressed as "Señora". The daughter of
Duenna Rodriguez is only one example.
Is that really proper ?
Aren't unmarried Spanish women of any age addressed as "Señorita" ?
(In Italy, an unmarried female is addressed as "Signorina"; upon marriage as "Signora".)
What are these 14 to 16-year olds called in the Spanish text, I wonder?
Would love to hear what you can tell us.
Many thanks in advance.
marni0308
August 21, 2006 - 10:06 pm
Judy: I saw a photo of a Chinese man with hideous long fingernails that curled around and around. They really were horrible. Here's a photo of the last empress dowager with long nails. Scroll down to the 2nd picture. Gad, imagine what you could NOT do with long long fingernails and bound feet:
http://www.bcc.cuny.edu/other/wach/topic5/topic5.htm I had a footnote in my edition of Don Quixote in chpt 42 or so that explained that long fingernails were the fashion in Spain at that time.
1amparo
August 21, 2006 - 10:11 pm
G'day Traude.
On those times "señora" was a title of respect equivalent to lady or ma'am. "Señorita" was not used then, it was either doncella (young girl) or "mi señora" (my lady), regardless of age. DQ calls Rodriguez's daughter "mala doncella" = bad girl, "bad" in the sense that she had let herself being used: under the usual false promises of marriage and love for ever after.
And how times change; today a "señorita" might meant to be an elder and married female!
Amparo
marni0308
August 21, 2006 - 10:16 pm
The cat/bells scene was just awful! But what a total riot! (Literally.) And the one cat who latched onto the Don's nose with teeth and nails! Poor Don Quixote. He had to stay in bed for 8 days.
It does seem the Duke and Duchess were truly sorry that things had gone so far and that the Don had been hurt.
Good for Sancho for telling off the physician who kept having Sancho's food taken away. Sancho stood up for himself. I think he really is very impressive as a Governor. He shows common sense and strength of character. Where did this person come from?
Re the farmer who comes for his help in arranging a marriage between his son and his lady love....He wanted Sancho to give him money to arrange the marriage. Hah! That would be the last thing Sancho would do. Sancho told the farmer off in no uncertain terms.
Deems
August 22, 2006 - 04:32 am
And I am behind on the reading. It was all I could do yesterday to read the inclass work from classes so we could discuss it today. In two weeks I'll be more in the rhythm, but at present I fight my body just to get up at 5:30.
But I'm keeping up with the comments. I found Traude's question and Amparo's answer about "senora" especially interesting as well as Marni's link to the photo of the extremely long fingernails. Imagine having those nails, rolling over in bed at night and stabbing yourself!
Maryal
Joan Pearson
August 22, 2006 - 06:04 am
Good morning, Maryal - our thoughts are with you this morning. Do you still get the old thrill when school bells ring in the fall? (I know a 5:30 am call is not thrilling!)
I'm missing Hats! A natural early riser who never needs an alarm clock. Calling Hats....
Thanks for clarifying señora/senorita, Amparo - it is reassuring to know that you are here with the answers to such questions!
ON MORALS - Traude asks - "Is it too far-fetched to see all these cabals, and those to come, as a struggle between good and evil?" When calling the duchess' behavior "immoral," is Cervantes attacking the morals of the nobility? Those with titles? Those who own land, wealth and treat those they rule as less than human?
ON WOMEN - Does Cervantes' low opinion of women include beautiful women? Does he equate beauty with virtue? (haven't met Doña Rodriguez' daughter yet, Traudee - is she beautiful?)
Marni - If Sancho is able to see through claims of ravishment...
do you suppose Cervantes is cynically observing that women who claim to have been taken against their will, even the beautiful ones, are not being truthful? IF Don Q. were to take advantage of Altisidora, (no, I don't believe he will) - would she charge him with rape?
***************************
AT THE DUCAL PALACEMippy - I'm still trying to figure out the purpose of sending the sack of angry cats on Don Q. I understand the bells would get his attention, but why go through all that?
Marni believes them when they claim they did not expect the cats to slash the Don's face - I'm not sure I do.
Marni, What other reason would they have had with this prank? What was the point? If not to hurt him, what?
Traudee, I read somewhere that Cervantes did not use color often - EXCEPT to make a point. He seems to be making many points in recent chapters, doesn't he? Is it unusual to find Don Quixote wearing finery now - after he has resisted so mightily in previous chapters?
Did you notice that Don Q. requested a lute, and was given a guitar instead? Was there a reason for this? Couldn't they find a lute? What's a lute? Is this another of Raffel's liberal translations?
Judy - happy to hear from you - and that you are AHEAD of us, not behind! How far ahead are you? You are commended for not being a spoiler!
I gather that left handedness and a lack of education went hand in hand in Cervantes time. If one went to school, he was "whacked" if he tried to write with his left hand. An uneducated lefty would be easy to spot.
Yikes - I've always hated long fingernails on men. I guess that's because of my peasant roots! Long nails indicate leisure and vanity to me. Don Q. advised Sancho to keep his nails trimmed. Do you think he will! Actually, I don't think he'll be at the governor's mansion long enough for them to grow!
AT THE GOVERNOR'S MANSION -
Traudee - Sancho's hungry enough to eat on onion! Didn't Don Q. warn against garlic and onions?
Marni - Good question - where does this strong, confident Sancho come from? Banish all the nobles, banish the bad doctors! Who else?
Banish arranged marriages too, while he's at it! Do you hear Cervantes voice speaking through the peasant?
hats
August 22, 2006 - 06:07 am
Good morning JoanP and All!
I am here. I have almost caught up in my reading. Don Q is beside my keyboard. I am going to get on my mount this afternoon and ride faster than ever!
Deems
August 22, 2006 - 06:28 am
Joan P--O yes, the classroom itself is always exciting. Our air conditioning is set higher than usual (your tax dollars being saved?) and I actually started sweating in class today because of over-active presentation of grammar. It was FUN. They were having fun too. Now, if I can summon just enough energy for 3rd period, I will be OK.
Fall, school, new school supplies, ah yes. How am I going to find the energy to retire?
Deems
August 22, 2006 - 06:30 am
Hats--Please take it easy. Not sure the ambulance corps is available to pick you up on that racing mount. Donkeys prefer a leisurely pace.
hats
August 22, 2006 - 06:38 am
JoanP and Maryal I just finished chapter forty-seven with ease. My donkey is watered and well loved too. I just have to say this is the most lovable "Great Book." I had a wonderful summer with Don Q and all the rest of the riding donkey posters.
Now I have to read the posts. I sure had a lot of fun catching up with chapter forty six and forty seven. I am a little upset with the Duchess and Duke for letting loose all those cats with bells on their tails. Poor Don Q, it's a wonder his face isn't completely scratched with his nose gone! I didn't like that trick at all!
hats
August 22, 2006 - 06:51 am
When Teresa Panza receives her letter and bundle from Sancho, how will she act? Does she miss him?
JoanP you mentioned a guitar instead of a lute. Is the "vihuela" the guitar?
In his song Don Q says Dulcinea is painted on his "tabula rasa." What is that? Is it his heart?
Did Don Q recognize the cats as cats or as just strange "evil enchanters?" Don Q calls the cats "base wizards and evil enchanters." Is he able to recognize and name correctly what attacks him? What does the world look like from Don Q's eyes?
Marni thank you for the link. Yucky fingernails I think.
hats
August 22, 2006 - 06:58 am
Truade I did think Don Q must have looked pretty handsome in his colorful outfit. On the other hand, I had to laugh about Sancho's laced bib.
The olla podrida, Spanish stew, sounds delicious with ham, chickpeas and chicken and vegetables. Amparo have you ever tasted a Spanish stew made with these ingredients? I think it sounds yummy. I feel like doing some Spanish cooking.
What is a "tirteafuera?" The physician wants to do one from the hall.
Maybe I should ride a little faster. Then, I won't get left behind again. It's pretty lonely in the back.
JoanK
August 22, 2006 - 09:35 am
HATS: I'm here at the back with you -- in fact, I'm behind you. I can just see your donkey disappearing over the hill.
Mippy
August 22, 2006 - 11:04 am
Hurray! I'm laughing again,
LOL over
Sancho, the hungry governor and the bogus doctor!
It reminds me of all the "forbidden" foods these days?
Don't you know (hope I'm not stepping on toes) anyone who must have organic food? Even organic ketchup, for goodness sake.
I'm thinking of someone in my family, and if she should read this, she'll be
But of course the bogus
dietician was just making Sancho unhappy on purpose,
as it must be one more stunt ordered by the duke and duchess.
hats
August 22, 2006 - 11:47 am
Hi JoanK and Mippy I laughed about Sancho and the food too. You know how much he likes to feed his tummy. There is this do gooder physician keeping poor Sancho from all that good food. Sancho begs for just a piece of bread and some grapes.
I liked reading about the Basques. The secretary is a Basque. The Basques, according to the footnote, are very loyal secretaries. Did we read about Basques in Vol.I? I am not sure. Is that true about the Basques making loyal secretaries?
This statement made by the butler shocked me a little. It seems like a bold statement against the church.
".....that your grace shouldn't eat anything that is on this table because it was prepared by nuns, and as the saying goes, behind the cross lurks the devil."
I am not a Catholic. Still, I wouldn't speak against the nuns!
What about Sancho's fit, rage, tantrum????? I knew something strange would happen on that insula.
hats
August 22, 2006 - 11:50 am
JoanK Maybe we should keep riding. I see chapter forty eight and forty nine up on the charts. We have been in back dipping and playing in the river. Not good. It's time to get serious. We better hop our mounts and head for the hills.
marni0308
August 22, 2006 - 05:27 pm
Re: "Marni, What other reason would they have had with this prank [cats]? What was the point? If not to hurt him, what?"
JoanP: I just figured the Duke and Duchess meant the bells and yowling cats were meant to be a great noise to drown out the Don as he sang his sweet song. They seemed genuinely sorry that the cats turned into something more serious and actually hurt the Don. I really don't think they want to hurt him. I think they want some amusements and are not even considering the cruelty they are inflicting. I hope they get theirs!
The scene with Sancho and the doctor at the dinner table really was hysterical. The table was covered with delectable selections and each one that Sancho reached for, the doctor stuck out his....wand? (some sort of stick). And he'd say it was bad for the Governor's health.
However, I thought the doctor was one of the Duke's men. I figured he had been put up to this on purpose - another joke to amuse the court. What do you think?
The Duke is definitely involved with more rascally business. Like the note for Sancho to beware. It's from the Duke. You know it has to be part of a mean joke - like let's get Sancho nervous about being killed.
marni0308
August 22, 2006 - 05:28 pm
Oh, hurry, Hats and JoanK! I just read the bedroom scene with the Don and Duena. I can't wait to see your reaction. It is TOO FUNNY!!!!
1amparo
August 22, 2006 - 10:37 pm
If your copy mentions "vihuela" instead of guitar, your copy is the one that gets the
* , for that's exactly what Cervantes wrote.
That very healthy and yummy dish that Sancho and La Mancha call "olla podrida" (I honestly don't know why the call it "podrida" = rotten in that part of Spain, actually, it may not be called that anymore). All over Spain still very much in the menu; Madrid calls it "cocido", others "puchero", and there is small variation of ingredients from area to area. It is very easy to do, every household in Spain will have it at least once a week... My late (Irish) son-in-law used to love it and he would have repeats; seconds and thirds. I did it last month, first time since he died and my daughter said: Robert's favourite...
Spanish Cocido recipe When I do this dish I don't put the morcilla or chorizo as I cannot get them here. Garbanzos = chick peas.
Enjoy!
Amparo
hats
August 23, 2006 - 12:51 am
MarniNow you have me all excited. I won't go to bed until reading it.
Amparo thank you for answering the questions. Yes, ""vihuela" is in the Grossman translation. I am so glad you included the recipe. I looked at the recipe link. I can just imagine the taste of that stew. No wonder your late son-in-law loved it.
hats
August 23, 2006 - 01:31 am
After Don Q and the duenna feel safe in the company of one another, the duenna sits down to talk. I love needlework. So, my eyes light up when needlework is mentioned in a book. In the conversation the duenna brings up "hemstitch or needlepoint." In Don Q's song, chapter xlvi, the Don sings about "fine sewing and needlework."
I bet the needlework done in Spain is lovely. In the movies I have seen Mantillas. I hope that's the right word. Aren't they made of lace? Amparo can you tell us about Spanish needlework of any kind?
I loved the remark made by Cide Hamete in "an aside." Now that made me laugh. Witnessing that scene between the duenna and Don Q would have been something to see.
hats
August 23, 2006 - 02:18 am
I don't know the story of Aeneas and Dido. "...and reckless Aeneas enjoyed the beautiful and compassionate Dido."
I would like to know more about the "nymph of the golden Tajo weaving cloth of gold and silk..." Is this a fairy tale or folk tale or something just made up from whole cloth?
Mippy
August 23, 2006 - 05:58 am
Hats ~ The story of Aeneas and Dido is part of the very long classic in Latin, The Aeneid by Virgil, written in the 1st century.
I doubt I can find a link to narrow in on that single part.
A very quick version:
Dido is the queen of Carthage, in Africa, (now Libya.) Aeneas is on a long, torturous journey from Troy to what will later be Rome. On his way, he stops, falls in love with Queen Dido, but then ... surprise ... Jupiter tells him he has to leave and get to Italy post haste, so he departs, and Dido kills herself. This is an opera, as well.
Big apologies to Traude all others who are fans of Virgil, for the major oversimplification.
hats
August 23, 2006 - 06:01 am
Mippy thank you! I didn't know anything about the story.
Joan Pearson
August 23, 2006 - 06:57 am
Good morning, Hats - and Mippy, our early birds! I see you've put the coffee on for the rest of us! Thank you - nice to sip and read the posts! AM keeping my eye on the trail this morning for JoanK - expecting her to arrive any minute with a big smile on her face. The story is becoming quite funny - (Even though Don Q ended up getting hurt) -
I'll take your word for it, Marni - the duchess didn't mean the prank to go as badly as it did. I agree with you that she and the Duke don't ever seem to consider the cruelty they are inflicting to the Don - OR TO THOSE POOR CATS cramming them in that sack scratching and clawing to get out!
Don Quixote called for a LUTE according to Raffel's translation. It's repeated several times and then the Duchess delivers a "guitar" I guess a lute is a guitar, so it doesn't matter - I just thought it was curious that the two different words were used, lute and guitar. Amparo, where there two different spanish words used in this passage - for guitar (viheula) - and lute?
Hats - Raffel didn't translate the term, "tabula rasa" - but it means blank slate. Don Q was saying that Dulcinea there wasn't ever anyone else in his heart but her.
Don Q. imagines the flying cats were evil spirits or the enchanters that plague him. we don't have to wait long for him to find out exactly what they were!
Joan Pearson
August 23, 2006 - 07:35 am
Sancho's story is hilarious! .Hats I have a footnote translating the doctor's name - Dr. Pedro Recio de Mal Agüero: "recio"= "harsh"; "agüero"= "sign" or "omen".
He comes from Tirteafuera: tirte afuera, which Raffel translates as "get the hell out." Surely he's been given this name by the duke/duchess as part of the charade.
Mippy - I can hear you cheering from here - when Sancho stares him down when he learns he can eat nothing that has been prepared for him and instead is given a plate of dried crackers - he throws him out! Literally. Now let's eat! But wait - the letter from the Duke telling him not to eat anything set before him - an assassination plot! How can he ignore that?
Marni - isn't this a carefully orchestrated plot to make Sancho unhappy enough to give up the governorship? Why have they decided to pull him out after such a short time? Is it because he no longer amuses them? Is it because he is doing such a great job governing that they are getting nervous the people will prefer his style of governing over theirs? They know he won't be happy with an empty belly.
Hats, I keep seeing that saying about "the devil lurking behind the cross." I looked it up and see that it is attributed to Cervantes! No, it isn't nice to say about the nuns when Sancho is warned not to eat the bread they baked. This seems to be another example of Cervantes criticism levelled against religious orders. They must have been quite corrupt at the time.
Immediately after "dinner" he is interrupted by the farmer who painted the stunning portrait of his future daughter in law. I wondered why he would need money to convince her father to let his son marry her. But then we see that the farmer's son is not anymore physically desirable than she is.
Why did Sancho get so incensed at the farmers request for dowry money? Was there another reason, besides his empty stomach that made him turn on the "peasant"? Is Sancho forgetting his own "peasant" roots?
Amparo - maybe Sancho's favorite stew he called "olla podrida" because he liked the old ingredients that had a chance to steep for a few days...you know, one of those dishes that taste better the next day when reheated. Hats - if you try the Spanish Cocido recipe, please let us know how it turns out!
About the Basque or Biscayan secretary - I have to believe that this was said sarcastically...weren't they classified as "liars" in earlier chapters? But Sancho here decides he can trust the Basque...
Joan Pearson
August 23, 2006 - 08:02 am
I love the images of Don Q. trying to keep the ladies from coming between himself and his ladies. When the strange apparition of appears in his bedchamber, he begins to cross himself furiously. Remember previously he carried a rosary at his waist?
We are told that Doña Rodriguez is as frightened as he is when she comes to his door. Can we believe her story - or has she been sent as part of a charade by her lady, the duchess? Poor Don. He is almost pleading with her to leave him be. He isn't made of marble, he tells her. It's midnight, they are isolated...just like Aeneas and Dido. Thanks for the thumbnail, Mippy - exactly what we needed here to understand the Don's fears.
Marni, I agree, the image of the two of them, holding hands, moving slowly from the door to Don Quixote's bed - too funny! I'm going to check to see if Dore thought so too - No, but he does include an illustration of the dueña sitting at his bedside. <No needlework pictured, Hats. I missed that - where did you see it. I usually notice that sort of thing too.
We have to remember that there are spies watching all of this. I'm thinking that Doña Rodriguez is not part of her lady's plot ...what do you think at this point?
1amparo
August 23, 2006 - 06:29 pm
Hello all.
Yes,
Hats, females my age and older would know how to do those chores of making lace and and all those things. We all (females) had to do them at school and some of us, me included did and do hate them.
Mippy, I think you have your countries confused; Carthage was and is (yes the Roman and even Hannibal ruins are still there) in what is now TUNISIA. I know, I have been there. I even have a glorious picture, my favourite, of me and one of the Roman columns as a hat! (Ginny put up that pic on the Latin page sometime last year)
Ancient Carthage Legend of queen Dido/Alyssa JoanP, lute, guitar and vihuela are three similar but different instruments. Cervantes wrote that dQ asked for a "laud" and was given a "vihuela".
CUL.
marni0308
August 23, 2006 - 10:01 pm
JoanP: My edition has a Dore illustration of the Don and the Duenna in his bedroom, but it's different. The Don is standing up on the bed covering himself by holding a blanket or cloak in front of him as he seems to be backing away from the Duenna who has approached him. The Duenna is holding her hands up to her face as though she is shocked. I love the picture!
I got such a chuckle about the "dance" that the Don and the Duenna performed, each worried that the other might take sexual advantage.
However, then things got serious. When the Duenna was beaten and the Don pinched, oh, no! That was shocking. I think the Duenna spilled the beans.
Speaking of beans....
Amparo, thanks for the delicious sounding recipe. It says it is the easy recipe. It doesn't sound very easy to me, but it sounds delicious.
hats
August 24, 2006 - 01:12 am
JoanP one time "hemstitch or needlepoint" is mentioned in chapter xlviii. The duenna is talking about herself to the Don. The needlework comes after she says "I am a native of Asturias de Oviedo..." Then, about six lines into the paragraph the duenna says,
"...and to avoid greater misfortunes, my parents arranged for me to do needlework in the service of a noblewoman; I want your grace to know that no one has ever outdone me in the hemstitch or needlepoint."
I think she's bragging a little bit. She must have done some awfully pretty needlework. I guess she's trying to make the Don see her finer qualities.
Then, in chapter xlvi, the second stanza or paragraph of the Don's song. He sings
Fine sewing and needlework,
constant devotion to labor,
can be the cure, the antidote,
to the poison of love's disease.
hats
August 24, 2006 - 01:19 am
Amparo thank you for both of those links. Those are really helpful.
Marni I am glad you were only gone for one day. I love your points in this discussion and of course, in "Undaunted Courage." We get to see each other in both places.
I agree with Marni the recipe might get very involved. I am going to chance it. It does sound delicious. I bet most Spanish recipes are yummy.
Joan Pearson
August 24, 2006 - 04:27 am
Oh yes, now I recall the dueña's needlework, her profession. Thanks, Hats...
Doña Rodriguez is an interesting character. At first I thought she was part of the duchess' plot to compromise Don Q's virtue, just as she sent Altisidora. But that would have been proposterous. She is not a voluptuous young beauty. And yet, the Don appears to be struggling with his desires in her presence anyway ... ~
Marni, I hadn't seen that Dore illustration. That was such a funny scene- both of them so frightened of their situation.
If she was not sent to him by the duchess, why is she there? I thought the whole staff was in on the plot, but she seems to think that Don Q. can help her.
Don't the stories in this chapter seem to echo those told in volume I. Sidi Hamete did observe that those secondary tales would not appear in this volume because folks skimmed through them in the first- since they were not related to Don Q. Do you think Cervantes heard criticism about those lengthy tales in the intervening years and so left them off in this volume?
Nearly all of Sancho's cases...and now the story of Doña Rodriguez' daughter seem to echo those earlier tales...it's fun paging back to identify remember them. Remember Dorothea's sad story? Is this the first time we see a mother intervening on behalf of her daughter?
The dueña lets it slip that the duchess might be ill. Is this the first time we hear of this? The reference to the man-made ulcers on her legs indicate bloodletting.
Doctors and medicine come under fire in this chapter. Ask Sancho. He's turning into more than a governor sitting on his throne hearing cases...a hands on activist as he patrols the streets looking for wrongs to right. Hmmm...this reminds me of a certain knight errant.
We have an early flight this morning - granddaughter's fifth birthday! Will try to get in to see you all this evening.
marni0308
August 24, 2006 - 09:15 am
Thank you, Hats!
You're going to try out the recipe!! I wish we all could have a taste!!
Regarding the duchess's cuts, my edition has a footnote about them. "These cuts, called issues, were thought to release the evil humors, or fluids, considered to be the cause of illnesses."
I wonder what's wrong with the duchess?
marni0308
August 24, 2006 - 09:20 am
I read something in the paper this morning. It's in the ongoing series written by Jill _____?, journalist for the Christian Monitor who was captured by Sunni terrorists in Baghdad and held for ransom, then let go after months. She's been writing about her experience. She wrote today that one of her guards, who was a man of about 26, had just been married to a 13-year old girl in a marriage arranged by the parents. So this stuff still goes on today.
Traude S
August 24, 2006 - 11:46 am
MARNI, marriages between teenage girls and (often much) older men is still commonplace in Islamic countries. A few weeks ago the NYT Sunday magazine had a picture article, i.e. pictures and captions, of such couples. One of the girls was 11 or 12 and taken out of school to marry. In many instances there already is an older wife (or more than one), as we have read in recent books about Afghanistan. They all contribute to the household in whatever form they can.
HATS, "tabula rasa" in Latin means a tablet (or lap desk, plank or the like) scraped clean; figuratively a "clean slate", unaffected by preconceived notions; and by exension a new beginning, where desired or needed. In the Don's case we know that in his whole world there is room only for Dulcinea.
And his devotion is touching.
JOAN P, I hope I have not given away things too soon; it was not my intention. But all things considered, it is possible to guess that Doña Rodriguez is definitely not one of the duke's and duchess's pranksters and not in on any plot.
The nightly visit is comic - the Don has good reason to be fearful, after the "clawing" incident, and Doña Rodriguez in turn is stunned by the apparition wrapped in the bed sheet. Both are concerned for their modesty, and when the Don goes back to bed, after they determine who is who, he pulls the covers up to his chin, and she sits away from the bed in a chair.
But I don't think there was time for any sexual tension (as we would call it) to develop because the Don soon became all involved in the Doña's story.
When the intruders burst into the bed chamber and first beat Doña R. with a slipper (hint, hint), the Don stays in bed, no doubt rigid with fear of what was to happen. Then he too is pinched by the intruders - for good measure.
We don't know at this point what ails the duchess, but JOAN's guess of bloodletting makes sense. It was used for several centuries after as a "cure" for several unexplainable ailments.
As for Greek and Roman mythology, I recommend as an invaluable reference "Mythology" by Edith Hamilton, which we discussed here a few years back. The index is marvelous, the chapters are brief and comprehensive. Wonderful, easy explanations.
Cervantes uses alternating chapters to map the course of DQ's and Sancho's day-to-day activities. But I see no direct interference at this point.
The night patrol shows Sancho's fine, honorable intentions and speaks well for him and his sincerity. All his decisions as governor are good ones, including the mild send-off of the glib young man who had a way with words but was essentially not a trouble maker. In one instance Sancho is mindful of the Don's exhortation to show mercy.
Nor did Sancho fall for the petitioner who demanded money and whose outrageous tale was literally the last straw.
Dr. Pedro may have had a momentary feeling of regret for hbis part in Sancho's deception and treatment. And yes, I think all those who make up Sancho's entourage are in the duke's service. Sancho has no one in whom he could confide, and in view of these non-enviable circumstances his conduct and behavior are admirable, IMHO.
Thinking of MARYAL wishing her well during this first week with the plebes.
hats
August 24, 2006 - 01:23 pm
Marni No, I am not trying out the recipe. I could imagine the taste without making it. I agreed with you about the recipe.
judywolfs
August 24, 2006 - 01:48 pm
Joan I also thought the night visit by Dona Rodriguez was part of the plot contrived by the duchess. Until the attack, of course. Sancho is sure a surprise as governor!
~JudyS
JoanK
August 24, 2006 - 05:37 pm
Caught up (for the minute)! Yes, the (non)-love scene between DQ and DR is funny, but also kind of touching -- these two seniors holding hands and fumbling toward the bed, both scared to death.
I thought at first that this was part of the Duke and Duchess's plot: if DQ won't fall to a young woman, perhaps someone more mature. But clearly not.
The negative picture of duennas is sad. Societies who leave women helpless without a man have to deal with the problem of what to do with women who either fail to get a husband or who are left widows. Often in our reading, we have seen such women, if upper class, left in the situation of "hangers on" in a rich household, with more status than a servant, but not much. (Remember Middlemarch). And often they are seen as figures of fun or dislike.
Traude S
August 24, 2006 - 07:10 pm
JOAN K, you said it perfectly, Duenna Rodriguez and DQ are touching.
The dubious station of unmarried women was also desscribed very well by Balzac, for example in Cousin Bette - but she, Cousin Bette, fought back and engineered the ruination of the family that had taken her for granted!
What a welcome contrast between the scheming, hypocritical duchess and the sincere warmth of Sancho's wife, or the honesty of Duenna Rodriguez, for that matter. Are subtle changes taking place?
marni0308
August 24, 2006 - 08:48 pm
JoanK and Traude: You're right! It was touching. I think the picture in my book of the Don standing on the bed trying to hide himself made it particularly funny. I'm going back to take a 2nd look at the sweetness of it all. Wouldn't it be wonderful if the Don had a real woman he could love? I've been wondering if he's a virgin. He's so very innocent.
Traude: You mentioned "the sincere warmth of Sancho's wife." She was sincere. I thought she was amusing, too. She got so excited about the presents and Sancho's letter and so did her daughter. Remember earlier how she was not at all interested in being a governor's wife and didn't want her daughter raised in that type of atmosphere. Maybe a change here is not so subtle.
hats
August 25, 2006 - 01:41 am
Traude thank you for more information about the "tabula rasa." I am determined to read your discussion about the Edith Hamilton book and the book itself. I am sadly lacking in Mythological knowledge. There are so many classics, poetry and plays where Mythology is mentioned. I am sorry to have missed that discussion.
I am catching up on my reading and on the reading of the posts too. I will come back soon. When will the Don and Sancho ever come back together again? Well, it's just as much fun having the two apart as together. I remember thinking the whole novel would fall apart if they weren't walking hand in hand together towards every adventure.
hats
August 25, 2006 - 02:31 am
I have enjoyed all the posts. I almost cried happy tears reading about Teresa and Sanchica getting the news about Sancho's governorship. Teresa feels so proud of her strand of corals. It's a very happy day in the village and an unbelievable day.
The page describes the Duchess by comparing her to the "ladies of Aragon" who are "highborn" and the "Castilian ladies" who are "punctilious and haughty. Were these two groups of Spanish ladies, in those times, described correctly? It's interesting.
I did feel sorry for the young girl dressed as a boy. She has not been out of her home for ten years. Is she exaggerating or telling the truth? Sancho, in this case, I think, judges as a protective father??? He sends her back home. The father, Diego de la Llana, does seem overly protective. In this case I didn't exactly agree with Sancho's judgment for the young lady. I think Sancho should have a talk with the father. Sancho's judgment surprised and disappointed me in this case.
"I don't know what streets or squares or temples....When I heard that people had bullfights and cane fights and put on plays..."
I am anxious to see if the butler will gain her hand in marriage. She is from a wealthy family. Is it possible the butler could marry her just because he works for the Duke?
Joan Pearson
August 25, 2006 - 07:07 am
Good morning, mis comadres!
Writing this morning from sunny Memphis - sunny and hot! 96 degrees expected today. We went right through security in ten minutes yesterday leaving DC - followed all the restrictions to the letter - packing toothpaste, all the toiletries, Bruce's shaving cream, deodorant - lipstick, etc...packed it all in the checked luggage. Well, guess what? Somewhere between DC, Cincinnati and Memphis, our little check-on bag spent the night without us. Only had my purse with me - it would have been an interesting day - well, at least a shopping spree to replace all the toiletries and a change of clothes - had Delta not delivered the suitcase at 1:30 this morning!
I am so happy to see this morning that you are all moving down the trail...without me. I did read ahead before leaving home - so you wouldn't leave me in your dust!
It did seem that the entire staff at the ducal palace were in on the joke, didn't it? How on earth did the duchess' lady in waiting, her dueña, not know that Don Q was not really a knight? OR does she know it, but sense that he is a good man, dedicated to helping maidens and widows in distress and for this reason decides to ask for his help. Why hasn't she gone to the duke or duchess for assistance? Maybe she has and they can't be bothered?
Isn't it interesting to see Sancho turn into a knight errant of sorts, a pro-active governor, patrolling the streets, righting wrongs? (And he isn't a governor of this "insula" any more than Don Q is a knight!)
Much discussion on the meaning of the term "insula" in this chapter. Do we need to rethink earlier conclusions that an "insula" can be any isolated spot - not necessarily a body of land surrounded by water?
Grandchildren - all five of them (under age 5) are down here this week...sons are waiting for "meanma" to come wear them down. What do you do with little ones in this heat? I'd better pack up my best bag of tricks!
Enjoy the ride, mis comadres...we are nearing the end of the trail and I find it bittersweet.
By the way, in case you didn't know this, we are having dual Poe discussions beginning in September - one on Poe's own Rue Morgue mystery stories and the other, Matthew Pearl's The Poe Shadow - which deals with the mystery surrounding Poe's early death. (The author plans to join us in this discussion as his time allows!)
The reason I mention this here - Poe himself married his 13 year old cousin when he was 26!
Mippy
August 25, 2006 - 07:24 am
JoanP ~ G'morning. It sounds like your plane trip wasn't as bad as might be.
I'm glad I don't have to fly on my trip to D.C.; we're driving.
What is an insula? Technically it is an island. Sancho doesn't exactly know that, but all those many people who are in on the joke know he is the "governor" of a small town, not of an island. Sancho may not even care what he's ruling. He appears to be rising to the occasion is a remarkable way, doesn't he?
Did Cervantes decide to change Sancho's abilities and intelligence at this late date?
Was the change from being a servant to a "master" the cause of Sancho's new abilities?
I can't figure out where this is going, except that Sancho's position doesn't look permanent.
hats
August 25, 2006 - 07:40 am
Mippy I agree. This governorship is not permanent for Sancho. How will it all end????
JoanP enjoy the grandchildren and family. Have fun!
marni0308
August 25, 2006 - 12:30 pm
Hats: I was surprised, too, about Sancho's ruling by just sending the girl back home to her father who kept her a prisoner. I suppose we could say well, what else could Sancho do with the girl? She'd have to go home. But you'd think Sancho would have sent her father some instruction to ease up a bit. Maybe it all had something to do with Sancho's opinion of women's role. I don't know.
marni0308
August 25, 2006 - 12:32 pm
JoanP: That's a drag when your luggage doesn't come with you. I'm going to be nervous the next time I fly and can't take certain things with me as carry-on. My brother and his wife "lost" their luggage on a trip to Arizona. Their luggage didn't catch up with them for a week. I would have a hard time traveling like that.
Mippy
August 25, 2006 - 02:27 pm
This is off subject, but some business travelers are sending
a few things to themselves, FEDEX or UPS, to their destination.
Most hotels have tooth paste, etc, so makeup is the worst problem.
Ginny
August 25, 2006 - 05:10 pm
An insula was also a Roman apartment building or block of 6-8 apartment complexes as you can see in this photo from cuny High Rise Romans
I don't know if this fits in your story or not, but we're talking a lot of people.
Traude S
August 25, 2006 - 06:40 pm
Regarding the young girl and her brother who wanted to see the "world" outside the house, Sancho found the only solution possible, I believe.
If he had gone in as "the law", the father would have punished the daughter severely(or worse), and the son as well. That is quite conceivable even in today's world, thinking of battered women and abused children.
But this was in seventeenth century Spain and is understable under the conditions of the time, even though we moderns are aghast.
Chapter 50. Teresa is an honest, guileless, above all trusting woman. I think it is outrageous that letters addressed to Sancho and Teresa are freely read aloud at court, without either of them present, to the delight of those present. (The Don voices some qualm, though.)
Having just read and discussed with the local book group "March" by Geraldine Brooks, about the (mostly absent) father in Alcott's Little Women, his (imagined) life and slavery in the south, I see some uncomfortable comparisons.
Sancho may not have believed in the permanence of is position when he said, in conversation with the steward in chapter XLV,
"... if my governhorship lasts a few days, I'll weed out these Dons ..." (pg.748, Grossman).
Also, Sancho may not have known that an ínsula is land surrounded by water, but he did know that it was to be his (domain) to govern, as stated in chapter XLIV, "... that afternoon they sent Sancho with a large retinue to the village that for him would be an ínsula."
The page who brought Teresa the corals and missive was, incidentally, the same young man who had successfully impersonated Dulcinea in the tumult of Chapter XL1.
1amparo
August 25, 2006 - 06:41 pm
That's what Cervantes had in mind more or less when he wrote the Quijote.
And here it is from the
Real Academia Española, for those of you who can read Spanish:
"ínsula.
(Del lat. insŭla).
1. f. Lugar pequeño o gobierno de poca entidad, a semejanza del encomendado a Sancho en el Quijote."
Sancho would had known that in his village where he lived, his neighbourhood was called, on those times, an insula.
Traude, "
But this was in seventeenth century Spain and is understable under the conditions of the time even if we moderns are aghast". Bulls eye mate! You are spot on!
Amparo
marni0308
August 25, 2006 - 07:20 pm
I read somewhere - maybe in one of my book's footnotes - that an insula was a town with a wall around it.
hats
August 26, 2006 - 01:10 am
Ginny thank you! That is very interesting about the "insula."
Marni and Amparo thank you too.
hats
August 26, 2006 - 01:58 am
Traude yes, I remember the page pretending to be Dulcinea. It is difficult to take him seriously as just a kind messenger. Anyway, because of the tricks done by the Duke and the Duchess I feel paranoid. Sancho talks about many tubings for syringes on the insula.
"Id like to send your grace something, but I don't know what to send, except some very curious tubing for syringes that they make on this insula to be used with bladders."
Maybe the syringe tubings are used as some sort of aid for bladders. Still, I feel uneasy after hearing about spies, assassination plots and such. By the way, I don't trust Dr. Pedro Recio either. I wouldn't want him to work on my bladder. Why is there so much tubing lying around the place????
Mippy
August 26, 2006 - 03:39 am
Ginny ~ why is it no surprise you are reading here? But the high-rise,
walk-up of ancient Rome
was unlikely to be built in Cervantes' rural countryside, as far as I know.
A village surrounded by a wall is more likely.
However, having read ahead a bit, it
is mentioned later (cannot find the page, of course) by one of the characters that an insula is usually surrounded by water. So that Sancho was not really ruling an insula, after all, but a village.
Off subject ~ we are just getting ready to leave for Tanglewood (Lennox, MA) to hear two concerts by the BSO.
I'll be back to join all of you on the insula on Monday morning!
Joan Pearson
August 26, 2006 - 07:10 am
Good morning, mis comadres! This will be brief - and must get back to son's home immediately, before boarding the plane for home! Mippy - next time I think we'll drive!
Yesterday we were struck with a double whammy which have us reeling and making different plans for the future...but that is another discussion!
Hey there, Ginny! Insert a Latin word and we can count on your turning up. Sancho's "island" included 1000 inhabitants, and as Amparo pointed out, those of Cervantes time would understand that definition - an "insula" would not necessarily have been a body of land surrounded by water.
But these chapters leave the impression that Sancho had been promised an "insula" - surrounded by water - First in Chapter L when the priest and Sanson Carrasco hear about the insula..."...confused, quite unable to understand what all this about Sancho's governorship might mean, and especially the governorship of an island, since all or at least most of Spanish islands were to be found in His Majesty's Mediterranean Sea..."
...and then again in Chapter 51:
"Sancho spent the afternoon working out laws for the better government of what he still thought was an island.
So, what did you think of those laws our Sancho left behind...still observed there on Barataria Island? Would you say that this character has grown in the course of the novel? How about Don Q?
I do see the end of the trail, don't you? I just don't want it to end! Manaña!
Traude S
August 26, 2006 - 02:20 pm
JOAN P, worried by your last post, I hope you had, or are having, a smooth return. We are anxiously waiting for you.
1amparo
August 26, 2006 - 05:54 pm
You got me worried. Should I embark on my trip on a rowing boat and skates, forget planes and their hassles and lost luggage?
Amparo
hats
August 27, 2006 - 02:46 am
Different plans for the future??? I misread what
JoanP meant. I thought she was going on another trip with the grandchildren. My reading comprehension is sleeping.
1amparo
August 27, 2006 - 07:05 am
I've just watched a British programme on TV
"Julius Caesar's Greatest Battle" on Caesar's battles with the Gauls; the winning battle. and for the first time I have heard the word "insula". Caesar's men had built a wall around the trapped Gauls up on a plateau in their fortress.
The commentator's words:
"with this circle wall, Caesar had trapped the Gauls in their insula"
I almost jumped out of my seat!
Deems
August 27, 2006 - 08:40 am
Good morning, friends. I apologize for my absence. The first couple of weeks of class are always like this--meetings galore, learning student names, fixing schedules for advisees (only two need changes at the moment) and figuring out where to move things on a syllabus that failed to take account of when the plays actually were. The whole plebe class is going to see Ibsen's An Enemy of the People at the Shakespeare Theater and I forgot to put in time for them to read the play first.
Anyway, much confusion and as a result I haven't read Don Quixote. I'll try to remedy that situation tomorrow. No hope for today since I have two class preps to do and a memory finger/stick to buy.
However, about the insula--I think we have finally pinned down the broader meaning of the term in Cervantes' day. Of course, an insula could be an island, but it could also be a city or a town since in those days both would be surrounded by a Wall. Amparo, you have provided the best example of the term being used in this sense.
Apparently, any geographical area, be it island or protected town, that was set off from the wide open spaces was an insula. The translators who substituted "island" for this term have caused confusion indeed.
I will catch up, folks, I promise.
And I hope that Joan P will be safely home today.
~Maryal
Joan Pearson
August 27, 2006 - 10:01 am
Good morning, Maryal! Oh dear, it isn't morning any longer - I'm still on Memphis time! Good to see you, happy to hear you might have some time to catch up with us on the trail. We'll keep looking over our shoulders for you!
Thanks for your concern, mis compadres! Amparo - I'm sorry to have sounded such an alarm regarding the airlines. It is comforting to know that measures...extreme measures are being taken to ensure our safety, don't you agree? What happened to our poor little check-on bag could have happened at any time. We flew from DC (less than 10 minutes to get through security) - to Cincinnati, where we changed planes to Memphis. It seems that the bag was not put on the Memphis-bound plane until a few hours later.
What code Orange did was ensure that toiletries and change of clothes were not with us for 12 hours after we landed. They DID deliver the bag in time though. If you can cram at least a change of clothes into your carry-on - and your toothbrush, you won't have to be concerned. Your checked bag will catch up with you if it gets left behind.
So, no, don't worry. Just keep in mind what might happen and be prepared. (And be assured that when you get here, I can pick you up and tale you shopping for whatever you need.)
Does the element of real danger seem to have dissipated? Don Q. seems less delusional than he has in the past, don't you agree?
He seems to be preparing to go on the tournament in Zaragoza, even without a squire, it seems. Has he forgotten about lifting Dulcinea's spell and Sancho's required lashings?
Meanwhile, Teresa is out of her mind with the prospects of being a governor's wife! (Maybe the only one more excited is Sanchica, who cannot control herself ) Traudee, what are the odds this same young page/Dulcinea will become Sanchita's husband? I know you don't approve of my pro-active participation in the story - just couldn't resist asking you!
Joan Pearson
August 27, 2006 - 10:19 am
Did you notice Cervantes' introductory words to Chapter 52? "in which is narrated the adventure of the second doleful or anguished dueña, otherwise known as Doña Rodriguez"
Are the stories of the two dueñas very different? IF Doña Rodriguez is in fact one of the few not included in the plot, does she have good reason to believe that the knight aided Countess Trifaldi and so might help her? Remember her young charge and the scoundrel who got her pregnant? (How was that resolved? I've forgotten, honestly! Oh, I know that she was a he, the Duke's steward - and the whole story was bogus - but what does Doña Rodriguez believe happened to the young girl with Don Q's help?)
Traude S
August 27, 2006 - 06:51 pm
JOAN, I'm so glad you are back home again safely. If I were to fly anywhere now, it would be from Providence, RI, which is approximately the same distance from here as Logan. I never liked Logan.
I'm truly dismayed that you think I "disapprove (!) of your proactive participation in the story". Please tell me what I said tha made you think that. I am genuinely sorry that you have that impression.
The two doleful dueñas tell similar stories - both deal with a young maiden betrayed by lovers who refuse to make good on their promise to marry them. One dueña is a fake, but Doña Rodriguez is real all right.
She is convinced that DQ can and will help her daughter, that's why she comes to see him in secret late at night.
First she details her own story, then tells the Don that her daughter was promised marriage by "the son of a very rich farmer who lives in a village not very far from here, which belongs to my lord the duke ... he deceived my daughter, and now he refuses to keep his word; even though my lord the duke knows about it, because I myself have complained to him not once, but many times, ..."
That is the cause of her despair, and DQ is her last resort.
Poor DQ, he's battered, clawed, pinched, confused. He just wants to get away, and who could blame him? I don't think he really means to leave Sancho behind; they need each other and both know it.
Teresa is excited. Nothing like this has ever happened in her hard-scrabble life, so naturally she is eager to join her husband, and in style!
Re your direct question: on the basis of what we have read about this long interlude at the ducal palace and on Sancho's ínsula it is impossible to predict whether there will be a marriage, how long Sancho's governorship will last, etc. It is safe to assume only that the lord and master, the duke and his wife, will be the deciding authority.
Joan Pearson
August 28, 2006 - 07:09 am
Good morning, Traudee! We're expecting our weekend travelers back today, but you have brought up two issues that we can address in the meantime.
First, please don't be at all dismayed about about anything you said - or I said! You pointed out once, (just once), that I make hasty guesses about what will happen in the future - based on very little. I know I do that, and have tried to keep such "predictions" to myself. If you remember, I thought the Countess Trifaldi was Doña Rodriguez...and "she" was actually a man, played by the Duke's steward!
I think it's funny now that both the fake dueña and Doña Rodriguez had the same problem with their daughters - as you pointed out. Are you sensing that the peripheral stories we read in Volume I are now part of the real drama in Volume II? Cervantes seems to have ceased writing these stories that have nothing to do with the plot and has substituted similar characters with similar problems who interact with Don Q.
In both the dueña daughter problems, the young maidens do not seem to be at fault. The rich boys have made promises, the girls have no choice but to give in to all they request. I did notice though that Doña Rodriguez' daughter was ashamed of her behavior. That's something.
OK, Traudee...here is my "educated guess" about what will happen to Sancho. We know now that Sancho yearns for his old life as a squire. After the enemy invasion, he quietly decides to leave the governorship - much to the regret of the people. But he wants his old "freedoms" back.
You believe the Duke and Duchess will be the deciding authority. I think that both Don Q. and Sancho have wearied of this authority and are more than ready to move on. Do you think the Duke and Duchess staged the invasion to force Sancho out? But why would they suddenly declare "victory" and try to get him to share the spoils of war?
From the beginning, Sancho has been motivated to act as squire with the promise of his own insula. Now what will he do? That I cannot predict.
Don Q. is certainly readying to move on to Zaragoza - even without freeing Dulcinea. But first he must do battle to right the wrong to Doña Rodriguez' daughter. That shouldn't take too long! Will Sancho and Don Q. ride off to Zaragoza together as knight and squire...or will Teresa appear on the scene to liven things up and prolong their departure?
Stay tuned!
marni0308
August 28, 2006 - 08:53 am
I have a very sad picture of Sancho by Dore in my edition. It is a closeup of him holding onto his donkey around the neck. Sancho is crying profusely with tears pouring out of his eyes and down his cheek. I had been wondering what happened. I finally got to that chapter and read it.
Sancho, as we know, does not like to fight. The duke and duchess created a battle scene for the governor as another one of their amusements. I wonder what they anticipated.
Sancho was awakened and forced to the battle scene where all was confusion, noise, and people running about. He was forced into some sort of armament garb made of what seem to be a shield in front and in back. He fell down because his armor was clumsy and heavy and he was trampled and pummeled. He was really hurt. That was enough for him. He decided his governing days were over and he wanted his old life back. He went to his donkey, put his arms around him, and cried. I wish you all could see the picture of Sancho and donkey. It's so sad. Sancho had been starved and tested in many ways. Through it all he proved himself wiser than we ever could have imagined.
It seems those involved in the charade were sorry (again) it had gone so far. Sancho would be missed as governor.
hats
August 28, 2006 - 09:14 am
I felt very badly with Sancho wearing that rediculous armor. The whole situation is sad. Marni thanks for mentioning the Dore. I have a copy. I never remember to keep it close to my book.
Mippy
August 28, 2006 - 09:17 am
Poor Sancho, knocked over and unable to rise ... like a turtle on its back (which of course can get up again.)
I was happy Sancho got on his gray and left the governorship. Too much abuse!
It was not really destined to last from the beginning, was it?
JoanP ~ Glad you are home ok. Did you mention bad tidings?
Traude S
August 28, 2006 - 11:18 am
JOAN P, yes, right on. It is freedom for Sancho.
MARNI, HATS, MIPPY, very well put. I don't have access to Dore or any other illustrations and am most grateful that we can view some of them right here.
And MARNI, aren't there also tears of joy and relief? I'd like to think that's what they were, at least in part, here in Sancho's case.
We can only marvel at the transformation of this "simple" man whose common sense wisdom astonished even one of the main intrigants, the steward, and ultimately the bored, jaded duke and duchess. Their power was far-reaching. Let's be prepared.
Joan Pearson
August 29, 2006 - 06:04 am
Well, it does seem that Sancho will be in reduced circumstances when poor Teresa arrives at the palace. Will she have received word that her Sancho has renounced his governorship while on the trail? Methinks she is in for a surprise!
Hats, I've searched in vain through our collection of Dore illustrations in the heading for the one of Sancho weeping with his little donkey that Marni describes. I think the whole fake invasion was cruel - even though the duke and duchess may not have intended it to be. Did they want to reveal Sancho as incompetent, unable to defend the people for whom he was responsible? Or did they want to test his integrity by offering him a share in the spoils of war?
Mippy - how long has Sancho governed his "insula" - a week? Did you think he'd want to remain as governor after being mortified - trapped like a turtle on his back? (How does a turtle manage to flip back over?) Remember how he couldn't stop talking about the blanket tossing in Volume I? He never got over that - the embarrassment of it. Of course he can't stay on as governor after losing face in front of his people. I wasn't really surprised to see him put a different spin on it when he got back to the castle and bragged he defeated the invaders with his strong sword arm!
Whatever the point, I agree, he proved himself wiser than any of us could have expected. His conclusion that "birds of a feather" should flock together (did Cervantes coin this proverb?) is still a bit puzzling to me. What did Cervantes mean by this? How did you take it? On one level, Sancho seems to be saying that there are those cut out to lead, those to follow. Some are more fit to govern than others. He's admitting that he is not a leader.
Yet we see the people of the "insula" responding to the leadership of one of their own flock - happy with their governor and his just ruling. If given a vote, they'd choose Sancho! Is it too early for Cervantes to be talking about democracy???
Oh dear, Traudee is hinting that the duke and duchess have not finished with their amusements...just when I thought Sancho was heading back to a reunion with his old master and they'd be on their way to that tournament at Zaragoza...
But we have the showdown over Doña Rodriguez' daughter's honor before they can get out of the clutches of the D and D!
ps....Mippy, the "tidings" weren't necessarily bad - just a bit shocking. Still somewhat premature to speak of them right now. Thanks for all of your good wishes that everything turns out well.
hats
August 29, 2006 - 06:59 am
Oh, I love that Sancho and Don Q are about to meet again. I am sad it's under such uncomfortable and dangerous circumstances. Sancho is down in that hole. Don Q is on his way to his next adventure. I hope both guys will remain together for the rest of the book. Getting Sancho out of that hole might prove to be an unexpected adventure.
hats
August 29, 2006 - 07:07 am
This is soooo funny! The Don thinks Sancho is in purgatory. This is the line that made me laugh.
"I've never died in all the days of my life."
It's just the way Sancho words the sentence. That's what is laughable.
marni0308
August 29, 2006 - 08:44 am
Re "2. What do we learn from Sancho's former neighbor about the expulsion of the Moors from Spain ?"
In this section, Cervantes seems very sympathetic towards the plight of the Moriscos, Moors who had become Christians, if I recall correctly. Earlier, they were supposed to have been able to remain in Spain as long as they converted to Christianity. Now it seems they were booted out anyway. It sounds like the Moriscos were given warning in advance that they would be expelled and then the actual act occurred in 1609 and again later, I think I read in a footnote.
Sancho's neighbor heeded the signs of what would happen in the future and got his family out safely, having time to accumulate and safeguard some wealth beforehand. I think I read that his wife's brother brought her and his daughter to Barbary (somewhere on the Barbary Coast of northern Africa.) They had converted and had been truly Christians. (The husband had converted, but wasn't quite as solidly a Christian, it seems.) Now, the wife and daughter must be muslims because of where they are living.
Sancho's neighbor expresses how Spain was his home. It was difficult trying to look at other countries as his homeland. But in Spain, he must put on a disguise and hope that his old friends like Sancho don't turn him in. It's pretty sad. He wants to bring his family back. He's heading towards where he has a cache of money or jewels and wants Sancho to help him get it, offering Sancho a reward for helping him. Sancho is not interested.
I suppose Sancho has had enough dangerous adventure for the time being. But he probably also doesn't want to get involved in something criminal and get in trouble with church and state. I think Sancho's had enough excitement for awhile. However, when he departs from his old neighbor, he and his donkey promptly fall into the dungeon and can't get out.
Joan Pearson
August 29, 2006 - 02:52 pm
In these chapters I see Cervantes touching on TWO big issues of the day - but he couches them in humor and in such a way that is difficult to fathom his own attitudes and beliefs. Also, these are very brief references to the expulsion of the Moors from Spain and the selling of Indulgences. I'm guessing that he was able to get away with a lot by using his own Cervantean formula. But what is he getting away with?
Marni - I thought the whole passage on Ricote's exile was revealing. He tells Sancho that he is baffled that his wife and daughter went to Algeria rather than to France, where they could have lived as Christians. You think they must now be Muslims now, because of where they are living, but Ricote goes on to say that very few Moorish women, or even none at all, ever fall in love with Old Christians. He's quite sure the young heir who followed her didn't win his daughter because she "cared a lot more about being Christian than about being loved." This reminds me of the Moorish maiden Zoraida...do you remember her?
The other telling remark Ricote made about the king's decree - which he refers to as "courageous" - divinely inspired even. "The penalty of perpetual exile fell upon us for good cause..." Can you believe a Moor would ever say such a thing? What do you think is going on in Cervantes mind?
Did you notice R. ended up in Germany, the land of the free?
Hats - that is a very funny line. What are your thoughts about purgatory? Don Q tells Sancho that if he is in Purgatory the Catholic Church has ways and means to draw him out of this torment...and that he will intervene with her [Church] on his behalf..."urge her as hard as my limited wealth will permit..." Do you know what he is talking about here? Is there a connection to Germany, Traudee?
There are so many levels to this story, I can see where you can get something out of it each time you read it!
hats
August 30, 2006 - 01:19 am
JoanP I did find Don Q's mention of "Purgatory" very interesting. I think Don Q meant that he could depend on the Catholic church to have enough money to spend in order to get Sancho out of "Purgatory." From the little I have understood about Purgatory. Purgatory is the middle of the road. You are not in heaven or hell. Your friends and loved ones must pay money for your removal from this place called "Purgatory." I feel that Cervantes is making a statement, maybe, about the riches of the church.
The mention of the pilgrims Sancho meets is interesting too. It seems, by the footnote, a person could not always take for granted that men asking for alms were really pilgrims. In the footnote "Martin de Riquer indicates that hoodlums and thieves frequently dressed as pilgrims." In this case one of the pilgrims is Sancho's neighbor and friend, Ricote the Morisco. Ricote is pretending to be a German pilgrim in order to keep safe from the Christian edict written against the people continuing to practice Islam in secret.
hats
August 30, 2006 - 01:36 am
It also seems speaking bilingual in this time is helpful. Ricote slips easily from one language to another language. One minute Ricote speaks the Moorish language, the next moment he speaks "pure" Castilian.
Ricote tells Sancho about his fears. Ricote trusts that these proclamations from the majesties are "not mere threats." Ricote's story is very sad. I almost cried reading about his love for Spain. In no way did he want to find himself exiled in Africa.
"No matter where we are we weep for Spain, for, after all, we were born here and it is our native country..."
Ricote's words remind me of a psalm. We would sing it in church. I hope the words to the Psalm will not offend anybody. The words are similar to what Ricote is telling to Sancho, his love of Spain, etc. In a way Ricote's life is one of captivity like the Jewish people while living away from Jerusalem. At one time I knew the words by heart. We sang the song so often. I am sure these words are familiar to many of you.
Sorrow
hats
August 30, 2006 - 01:46 am
It is interesting why the pilgrims are carrying the staffs. I thought of the staffs as religious symbols of their beliefs. Their staffs are like their wallets. "They travel through most of the country, and they leave every town well-fed....at the end of the trip they have more than a hundred escudos left over, which they change into gold coins and hide in the hollows of their staffs..."
marni0308
August 30, 2006 - 07:54 am
Hats: I have a great old Jimmy Cliff reggae album "The Harder They Come" with the song "Rivers of Babylon" on it. The lyrics are similar to the psalm in your post. They must come from it. Here are the lyrics:
"By the rivers of Babylon,
Where he sat down,
And there he wept
When he remembered Zion.
Oh, the wicked carried us away in captivity,
Required from us a song,
How can we sing King Alpha's song
Inna strange land?
So, let the words of our mouth
And the meditations of our heart
Be acceptable in Thy sight.
Oh, verai!"
You can listen to a bit of the song here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00005LZWR/026-4076389-6678049?v=glance&n=229816
hats
August 30, 2006 - 08:05 am
I love it. Marni thank you! It has a Calypso beat, not at all like the one we sang in church. Thank you for the link.
Joan Pearson
August 30, 2006 - 08:17 am
Good morning, Hats, Marni -
Such thoughtful posts this morning. We learn a lot in the exchange between Sancho and his former neigher - Ricote. Ricote doesn't seem to know whether he's a Moor or a Christian. It helps that he is "bi-religious" as well as bi-lingual. As you noted, he doesn't want to return to Africa - because these Spanish-Moors get a hostile reception when they return there. His heart remains in Spain. If he has to profess Christianity to stay there, he'll do that. But now that's not good enough either. The king wants them all out. The words to SORROW - "How can we sing a song of the LORD
on alien soil?" sum up his feelings perfectly. Thank you for bringing these words to us.
Does Cervantes seem sympathetic to the Moors? I thought I detected a note of sarcasm as he has Ricote praising this decision. Amparo, can you tell us whether the Moors have been integrated into Spanish culture? When did this happen?
I like how Sancho and Ricote are able to speak openly with one another - with such trust. Didn't you smile when Ricote hears Sancho's story of governing the island - he tells him to snap out of it - who would give away an island. Oh, and he also points out - "You find islands out in the ocean, NOT on dry land."
I think there might be a reason Ricote keeps referring to Germany where he is enjoying religious freedom - but not sure exactly which religion Ricote has chosen to practice.
Marni - the calypso beat sounds so upbeat! I don't know what I expected - something more melancholy. But what a great way to start the morning - Thanks! Hats, do you remember a slower, sadder hymn?
hats
August 30, 2006 - 08:39 am
JoanP, yes, the song I remember is slow and sad. You could just feel the longing for home in the words.
Joan Pearson
August 30, 2006 - 08:43 am
I've been thinking about Don Quixote's remark concerning his sworn oath to help both the living - AND the dead. He says he will work to get Sancho out of purgatory as far as his means will allow. It could be that he is merely observing the practice of the Church at the time - that he would be able to get Sancho out of purgatory by acquiring indulgences through good works and donations to the Church. OR was he criticizing the excessive Church sale of indulgences during this time that promised to buy the soul in purgatory his way to heaven?
Hats> , do you feel Cervantes is criticizing his Church's sale of Indulgences? I really can't tell. Knowing Cervantes, I think he may well be
Remember this is what triggered the schism - Martin Luther protested this sale of indulgences. IN Germany - land of freedome where Ricote now lives. Is it all tied together somehow? You might be interested to read more of the medieval Church postion on Indulgences and Purgatorio.///
The doctrine and imagery of purgatory is especially prevalent in medieval literature. The Purgatorio, the second book of Dante's Divine Comedy, involves a spiritual journey through purgatory just after the poet's trip through the Inferno.
Luther
Purgatory/Indulgences
Purgatory/the Catholic Church
The medieval and Catholic doctrine of purgatory stated that Christian souls who had accepted rites of baptism and been accepted into the body of the faithful church, but who died unexpectedly with unconfessed sins or minor venial faults, would not be sent to hell, but would rather spend an indeterminate period in a spiritual place of temporal punishment. In this spiritual place, popularly called purgatory, such souls would suffer for awhile as an act of penance. This would purify them so they could enter heaven. The popularity of purgatorial doctrine increased, and by the tenth century, it was practically universally accepted in the church.
Need to go to the dentist...will edit this down further when I return...be happy it's me and not you! I want to find the part about the sale of indulgences to which Luther objected.
Mippy
August 30, 2006 - 09:19 am
The Moors' conquest in Spain and Portugal was gradual, but in 711 there was a major move into Europe.
Some links about this are
Portugal
Spain
(Neither links are .edu; we might search further to verify.)
Joan Pearson
August 30, 2006 - 10:04 am
Thanks, Mippy. I'm gathering that the Moors came to Spain (as conquerers?) in the early 700's, had great influence on the culture of the country, were expelled in the 16th century...not to return. Had they already assimilated into Spanish culture?
Here's another link to Muslim Spain to give you the idea of the extent of the Moorish influence on Spain.
1amparo
August 30, 2006 - 06:19 pm
JoanP, your link “Muslin Spain” is very good and gives a more or less accurate fact of events during the Moors seven hundred years of partial ruling in Spain.
But, and it is a big “but”, invaders are just that no matter what. According to history, Christians, Muslins and Jews were integrated and lived in relative harmony with each other, until the “Catholic King and Queen” Isabel and Fernando, married and joined forces to reclaim all parts of Spain where the Moors were and kill many, all in the name of the Church and Christianity. Once the Christians won the battles it was a case of change religion or leave Spain: some converted true or false, others left. Isabel and Fernando preferred the latter as that meant all the wealth the moors might had had in Spain were confiscated. Imagine the riches for Spain! However, hate of the Moors and Jews was such, that not happy with them being thrown out, they had most of those beautiful buildings the moors had, were either destroyed of converted to churches etc.
I can almost feel the pain on those who left their beloved “El Andalus”. I have friends in Cordoba and all over Andalucia. When I go visiting they take me to new dug up ruins, some of them so beautiful it takes your breath away.
As a child and in times of Franco, I remember seeing Franco’s guards consisted mainly of Moors; they looked very impressive: dressed up in their Moorish gear… but to us kids they looked ferocious and scary. Perhaps because at school (read church too) we had been told of the many atrocities and what savages the moors were.
Today in Spain, I think there are more “Moors” than Spanish!; most of them illegal immigrants than come, everyday, from across Africa. Some of them die before they reach the safety of Spanish coast.
hats
August 31, 2006 - 01:04 am
JoanP, Amparo, Mippy and All, the links are very, very interesting. Reading about indulgences, Purgatory, Martin Luther, Portugal, Spain and so much about the Moors just adds to my reasons for having enjoyed this discussion. Thank you.
JoanP, I hope your visit to the dentist went off without a hitch.
Did Maryal peek in? I don't want to miss her.
Traude and JoanK, I hope you are well.
I hope Alf is alright. Alf!!!!!!!!!!!! I hope husband Bill is improving.
Deems
August 31, 2006 - 05:11 am
Good morning, Hats and Amparo and everyone else. I am finally caught up! I’ve been keeping up with the messages all along. You all notice such interesting things! I laughed when Sancho said that he hadn't died all the days of his life just like Hats.
As usual, Cervantes reminds me of Shakespeare. When Shakespeare created Falstaff, he became so popular a character that Queen Elizabeth her own self asked Shakespeare to write a play showing Falstaff in love. And he did—The Merry Wives of Windsor. I think the same thing happened to Cervantes after he created Sancho. In the intervening ten years between Parts 1 and 2 of Don Quixote, many readers must have remarked on how much they like Sancho. So in Part 2 we get at least half the space devoted to Sancho.
And what’s not to like? Sancho, having just taken possession of his Insula, and being addressed as “Don” says that he is no Don, but plain Sancho Panza just like his father and his grandfather. He makes wonderful judgments! I especially liked his call on the woman who claimed to have been taken advantage of. If she had guarded her chastity as well as she guarded the money purse, she would have escaped. Clever clever Sancho.
There was earlier discussion on what Grossman translates as “Behind the cross lurks the devil.” The reference is to the bread the nuns have baked. I think this is another way of saying that the devil is often an attractive presence—a “fair-seeming” foul thing. If the devil didn’t appear to be a beautiful creature, how could he fool so many? It can be read as an attack against the church, but I see a broader meaning here. The devil appears when he is least expected and dressed in fine clothes.
The account of Governor Sancho patrolling his insula amused me, especially when he and the guard came across the girl dressed in her brother’s clothes. Again, I thought of Shakespeare who many times has girls disguised as boys. At that time women had so little freedom. The poor girl, daughter of Pedro Perez Mazorca, wants so much to “see the world” or at least a little of her own village! She has been secluded for ten years, ever since the death of her mother.
I also noticed that although the bachelor Carrasco had no trouble deceiving DQ, Sancho’s wife, Teresa, doesn’t trust him (one must look for places where women are admired!) She finds an altar boy who knows how to read and dictates her letters to the duchess and her husband to him. Smart woman.
And didn’t the letters of DQ to Sancho and Sancho to DQ sound just like the two men? Don Quixote’s is full of advice on how to be a good governor and Sancho’s full of exasperation about not being fed enough.
Joan P—Turtles can right themselves when turned over on their backs by hyper-extending their heads and using them as levers. I’ve watched them do it.
More later on the discussion of purgatory, indulgences, and Moors. Thank you Amparo for your additional information.
Maryal
Joan Pearson
August 31, 2006 - 07:18 am
Good morning, mis comadres! Welcome back to the trail, Maryal! You've been missed.
Amparo- "Today in Spain, I think there are more “Moors” than Spanish!; most of them illegal immigrants that come, everyday, from across Africa." I find that extremely interesting after reading of Ricote's doleful tale as he wanders Europe for a home, sneaking back to Spain to visit the "shrines" of happier times before the expulsion.
Hats, I think the little comments, observations Cervantes slips into his story give us quite a picture of the culture in which he is writing. Can't you just see the Inquisition officials scrutinizing his words, satisfying themselves that he has merely written a commentary on knight-errantry of old, and not any criticism of the Church or the King? You have to wonder how they missed some of this stuff.
“Behind the cross lurks the devil.” Thanks for commenting on this, Maryal - the expression is attributed to Cervantes and this isn't the first time he uses it. The holy nuns aren't be trusted - (they might have poisoned the bread?) - because the representatives of the church can't be trusted - just because they are standing with a cross in their hands. In the broader sense...it can mean things don't always appear as they may seem - or "all that glitters is not gold." Isn't this expression attributed to Cervantes too?
Joan Pearson
August 31, 2006 - 07:32 am
I agree with you, Maryal - we all like Sancho. I think Sancho's readers can relate more to him than to the up-tight, disciplined knight who isn't finding any enjoyment in life. I know I do. I feel sorry for the life Don Q. is leading - but Sancho lives it to the full! I feel sorry for characters like Ricote's daughter who "cares more about being Christian than being loved." We see a number of these characters going through life like this. I think Cervantes is saying something about them by painting such agreeable folks like Sancho in contrast.
Do you think that Sancho might have enjoyed governing the island more if he had been eating well? Wasn't that the main complaint he had? He did seem to be doing a wonderful job! He says he learned he was not cut out to govern at the expense of losing sleep and food."No matter how much it hurts, food makes it feel better."
Can't we all identify with Sancho on this?
I'm not so sure Teresa will be happy with his decision to chuck the governorship when she arrives. Maryal, Teresa knows from Sancho not to trust the college graduate. The altar boy was a wise choice to convey her thoughts to her husband.
It's interesting that the Duke and Duchess come to Sancho's rescue from "purgatory"with robes and cables - more interesting that they hadn't heard from the islanders that Sancho had left. Why do you think they didn't report his absence? Were they afraid their old "governors" would return.
Interesting too that Sancho claims victory over the island's invaders because of his powerful sword arm. Is this out of character for the scrupulously honest governor? I had a thought that just MAYBE Sancho understood that the battle was rigged and is putting it to the duke and duchess, just as he fibbed about the little goats when he knew the wooden horse hadn't left the ground. What do you think?
It seems the two can get back on the trail once the matter of defending Doña Rodriguez's daughter is accomplished. Is the duke's footman, Tosilos programmed to win the contest? Why I keep asking myself?
hats
September 1, 2006 - 12:52 am
JoanP I just remembered seeing Charlemagne's name mentioned. Didn't Charlemagne convert to Christianity? Anyway, Sancho in chapter lv mentions the palaces of Galiana. Then, there is a footnote. This is interesting, I think. Anything mentioned by Cervantes is important, worthy of notice.
"A legenday Moorish princess whose father, Gadalfe, built gorgeous palaces for her in Toledo, on the banks of the Tajo. She later converted and became the first wife of Charlemagne....."
If some information has already been posted about Charlemagne. Please tell me.
Maryal thank you for your post on Shakespeare's play.
hats
September 1, 2006 - 01:14 am
Here is another idea hatched by the Duke for his pleasure. The Don and Tosilos are going to fight. To make sure the footman doesn't hurt the Don, the "iron tips" are taken from the lances. The Don is to be defeated any way accept his body must remain unharmed. Tosilos ends up declaring his love for the daughter of Dona Rodriguez. "...When he looked at his enemy, Dona Rodrigues's daughter, she seemed the most beautiful woman he had ever seen in his entire life."
Mippy
September 1, 2006 - 05:50 am
Altisidora's stolen garters are mentioned above, in your questions.
What's that about? I read and re-read the chapter but cannot see what significance this has.
I suppose just mentioning garters was a joke in that century, is that it?
Joan Pearson
September 1, 2006 - 09:09 am
SPAIN'S GOLDEN AGE
After the expulsion of the Moors and the Jews, Spain entered its Golden Age. It created a huge empire, and along with Portugal, became one of the most powerful nations in Europe. Unfortunately for Spain and Portugal, both countries declined soon afterwards due to a change in their population make-up, as detailed in the previous chapter.
Nonetheless, the liberation of Spain from Moorish rule saved Western Europe from complete Arabic domination, and as a result the Visigothic warriors who undertook this 700 year war, will always be remembered for their great feat of arms.
The Third Great Race War.
Joan Pearson
September 1, 2006 - 09:12 am
Good morning, mis comadres! Yes, look, it's still morning! Am running late today, but cannot forget our Don!
Hats, I don't recall mention of Charlemagne here, but you might be interested in the following two articles...the first tells of Charles Martel's defeat of the Moors. - The Third Great Race War.
The second tells of Charlemagne's agenda when crowned emperor. Charlemagne was Charles Martel's grandson - I found this very interesting in light of the footnote you've shared with us -
When Charlemagne took the throne in 771, he immediately implemented two policies. The first policy was one of expansion. Charlemagne's goal was to unite all Germanic people into one kingdom. The second policy was religious in that Charlemagne wanted to convert all of the Frankish kingdom, and those lands he conquered, to Christianity. As a result, Charlemagne's reign was marked by almost continual warfare.Charlemagne
I'm still puzzling over why the Duke wanted Tosilos to overcome Don Quixote so that no one would be responsible for the duchess' lady-in-waiting's daughter. No one would marry her if Don Quixote wasn't successful. Why would he defend the young man who is away in Flanders and make his footman fight (to win) in his stead??? What kind of people are they? Is the young man of the upper class? To marry the girl would be beneath him?
I liked the characterization of Love, cupid as a little boy whose arrow was true - aimed it right at Tosilos! And the Duke was furious!!!
Mippy - did you notice the Duke himself is ready to take on Don Quixote in combat - over Altisidora's honor! Her stolen kerchiefs (did Sancho take them?) are one thing but...stolen garters? What a violation! Doesn't that imply he's been messing around under her skirts to remove her garters? The duchess is shocked at the song, at Altisidora's lack of modesty...does it seem that this is part of the duchess'plot - or has the little boy, Love, shot his arrow right in the heart Altisidora? Do you see evidence that she is joking - or is she serious?
judywolfs
September 1, 2006 - 09:22 am
I was struck by part of Theresa's letter to Sancho when she mentioned that 3 peasant girls had been kidnapped from the town, but she would not name them. I began anxiously reading along, searching for some hint that one of them was the "enchanted" Dulcinia, who would pop into the story somehow. So far, I'm disappointed that there's still no glimpse of her.
To me, this trail seems to be getting steeper, rockier and more difficult to follow the closer we come to the end.
~JudyS
Nike
September 1, 2006 - 01:51 pm
Hi all. Looks like this discussion is nearing the end, but I am going to listen in anyway if that's ok. Reason is I am planning on starting up a Great Books group later on this fall on Don Quixote and am trying to pick up interesting lines of discussion. Hugh
Joan Pearson
September 1, 2006 - 06:09 pm
Hello there, Hugh! ~ Yes, of course we would love to have you escort our muletrain donkeytrain on the final push to Zaragoza. As Judy writes, the trail is becoming more difficult to maneuver as we come into the final stretch. Have you ever read the first part up to this point?
How often will your group meet? Will your discussion be an on line-discussion?
Judy - I never connected those three kidnapped girls Teresa wrote about - to the possibility they might be the three our duo met in Toboso! Did Sancho ever get a good look at them? Do you think maybe he didn't know them from his neighborhood... but Teresa did? Now that's one more thing we need to see resolved before the story ends.
What of Dulcinea and the enchantment? It seems that Don Q. has forgotten all about the lashings Sancho was to have administered to himself. It doesn't even come up as they take leave of the duke and duchess. What of the Duchess's illness? We don't have many pages left to tie up all these loose ends. Will Sanson Carrasco ever make an appearance? I'm wondering what will happen when the young man who ruined Doña R's daughter comes back from Flanders to find her married to the Duke's footman. That duke!!! What a terrible man. I'd like to see him exposed by the story's end too!
I'm still trying to figure out if Altisidora has really fallen for Don Q - or if she's just carrying the charade a bit further because she's enjoying making fun of the knight...
Traude S
September 1, 2006 - 06:45 pm
When Doña Rodriguez turns to DQ, it is out of despair. What she tells him makes it very clear that the duke was quite aware of her daughter's plight but that he had ignored her entreaties.
When this "open secret" is revealed, the duke has no choice but to "take charge" at long last, and he arranges for the combat between DQ and the "rich farmer's son". But that young man has already high-tailed it out of there and gone to Flanders, so that a substitute has to be found. That is Tosilos, a footman of the duke, who has to be coached first for the "job".
That's the reason for the five-day waiting period before the encounter can happen, and time stands still for the eager Don, who is anxious to get into battle and cooling his heels. The preparations are elaborate; the terms clearly set; Tosilos is told what to do and instructed not to kill DQ under any circumstances; the event never experienced before brings onlookers from far and wide.
The outcome is not at all what the duke had planned, nor what DQ had hoped. Everyone, except DQ who blames enchanters- again, can see that Tosilos is the wrong person, but Doña Rodriguez and her daughter are happy enough, as long as there will be a wedding.
The duke agrees to a wait for fifteen days to see whether the Tosilos's countenance will change back to that of the wrong-doer. Yet the duke is clearly upset with his footman, and we haven't heard the last of this yet...
If the duke and duchess are representative of Spanish nobility at Cervantes' time, it is not a favorable picture. The reader wonders more and more who the real heroes are in this story. It is interesting also, isn't it, that DQ cannot simply up and leave but must formally ask the duke's permission.
As for Sancho, he probably only boasted about his powerful arm. How could he have used it, encased as he was in the armor, how could he have held or even wielded a sword? They trampled all over him and finally had to stand him up!
Sancho had taken as much as anyone could be expected to take, and these socalled enemies were the last straw. His departure came as a surprise to everyone, and his principal minder, the steward, was apparently not at that moment. It was his duty to inform the duke, and he did so --- but later. Meanwhile Sancho got away- bravo!
But he was delayed on his journey by the meal and talk. Night fell too soon and Sancho stumbled into a large pit, which should have been covered long before, and the duke knew all about. Luckily DQ was near and finally realized that it was Sancho in the flesh who needed to be rescued, not a soul lost in and calling from purgatory.
Cervantes may have intended purgatory and the pit as a symbol for death and rebirth, not quite what the cave of Montesinos was for DQ, but in some ways akin to it for Sancho. At least from that moment on there can be no doubt where Sancho's loyalty lies - with DQ.
Altisidora's allegedly missing night caps and garters were her invention, a last-ditch effort to compromise DQ. Even the duchess was scandalized, she knew nothing about this and took it seriously.
Is it remotely possible, I wonder, that Altisidora, this scheming sixteen-year old, WAS infatuated with DQ, the older man, ? If not, she must have had a depraved mind - and she may yet reappear ... . Mercy.
More about the Moors tomorrow.
Joan Pearson
September 2, 2006 - 07:56 am
Good morning, Traudee! You bring up several important things for us to think about this morning...~ Who ARE the real heroes of the story? You are right, the Spanish nobility is not presented favorably - nor the clergy. Cervantes does seem to enjoy the down home wisdom of the peasants - but then his knight is constantly putting down his squire for meddling where he doesn't belong. Maybe that's the point? We did see the super job Sancho did as governor - to the delight of those he ruled. Isn't it very early in history to think that Cervantes is a champion of democracy - of the people, for the people, by the people?
~ Don Q. had to ask permission to leave? Why was that? Was it because he was indebted to the duke for putting him up all for such a long period? Once on the open road he complains to Sancho about the chains of indebtedness to those who have shown him kindnesses - as fetters to the free spirit.
~ You ask if it is remotely possible that Altisidora is infatuated with DQ. And I smiled when you wrote, "mercy" - because Don Q. tells Sancho that he felt little compassion for her, but rather embarrassment.
Will we hear from the duke again? And Altisidora? Will Cervantes tie all these loose ends together to answer our questions on the way to Zaragoza?
Joan Pearson
September 2, 2006 - 08:21 am
I was most interested in the carved images of those warrior saints the farmers were transporting. Amparo - can you tell us about Don San Diego Matamoros who fought the Moors? Is he the patron saint of Spain today as in Cervantes time?
Cervantes sees him as living by the same faith he follows, but fighting in God's name. He compares fighting the Moors to the battles he's been fighting. Is there irony in the words that used to describe the saint...""his sword bloody, trampling down Moors and riding over their severed heads"..." Don Quixote on observing this image calls San Diego Matamoros as one of the bravest knights in God's holy army. And later in the same episode, he describes him as "visibly present on the battlefield, humbling, trampling, destroying and murdering..." I'm wondering if I'm reading sarcasm or criticism here where there isn't any? <brt>
Is there an English equivalent of San Diego? How about the city in California - San Diego? Is it named after San Diego Matamoros?
However Don Q viewed these images, it seems that he intends to join God's army once he has liberated Dulcinea, doesn't it? Are we seeing development in his character?
Joan Pearson
September 2, 2006 - 08:37 am
Folks! The trip to the tournie in Zaragoza is OFF!!!
Cancel all reservations NOW!
Deems
September 2, 2006 - 09:48 am
And I was so counting on that tournament!! The flags blowing in the wind, the knights in armor, the lists, the beautiful ladies leaning to see their favorites, the long lances, the sun shining in a clear blue sky!
How can I possibly give up Zarrgoza!
I have caught up--but must read the two new chapters so I know what Joan P is talking about.
Maryal
hats
September 2, 2006 - 11:16 am
Me too!
I did read about the carved wooden images for an altarpiece. I wish those were real images. I would have enjoyed seeing the beauty of each figure.
Going to catch up. I have just started chapter lviii. I misread the schedule and slowed down instead of speeding up.
hats
September 2, 2006 - 11:59 am
Don Q sure knows a lot about Mythology. Is Mythology interwoven in many of the tales of Chivalry?
I think the Don is beginning to philosophize about death. He talks to Sancho about death for awhile during their relaxing picnic. Then, surprisingly, the Don sees an inn. He doesn't call the inn a castle. He calls the inn by its correct name, inn. Is Don Q beginning to regain his senses???
Mippy
September 2, 2006 - 12:47 pm
What Trip? Who cancelled? Help!
Is this somewhere in these chapters?
Hats ~ That's right! DQ knows an inn is an inn! Sanity regained?
Traude S
September 2, 2006 - 05:41 pm
In the middle of a post there was one of those annoying fraction-of-a-second-long outages that set everything to blinking and turn off the computer, too. Now to reconstruct.
We are concerned about DQ: he is talking about death with Sancho and actually recognizes an inn for what it is! Are we to rejoice or be apprehensive now?
DQ has been discouraged and melancholy before after setbacks, but now it may be deeper - how much more humiliation will be heaped on him? Or how much can be bear?
Regarding the earlier questions concerning integration of Muslims/Moors in Spain. This is whence they came, according to history.
Mohanmed (also Muhammad or similar spellings) died in 632 without a male heir. Under his (male) successors, the Caliphs, a rapid expansion of Islam began with the aid of the sword. At the beginning of the 8th century the Islamic faith had been propagated to the borders of India in the east and the Atlantic coast of North Africa in the west.
From there an officer named Tariq ibn Ziyad and 7,000 soldiers set out across the narrow strait in 711toward the Iberian peninsula and landed on the rock that was named after him and is known as Gibraltar. That was the first foothold on the European continent but by no means the last. Successful forays were made into Sicily, even southern Italy, and (from Al Andalus) into France, specifically Bordeaux. One significant battle was fought at Tours and Poitiers in France.
In Spain, the south, specifically the Andalus, was the Islamic center and Córdoba its capital. The initial "cohabitation" in Toledo and other conquered parts of Spain did not last. Eventually the Catholic Church reacted with rigor and vigor; a "reconquista" = reconquest began; prejudices and suspicions against the "infidels" were fostered, especially under the reign of Ferdinand and Isabella; and led to the persecution, and ultimately the expulsion, of Jews and Muslims from Toledo and, later on, from all of Spain. Forced conversions to the Christian faith were another "measure".
Sancho's neighbor, Ricote, is aware that he's in danger. Theoretically, Sancho could tell the authorities that Ricote has come back -- no wonder Ricote is careful about what he says, lauding the king's edict, just in case !
An excellent literary treatment of this transitory period in Spain is found in a novel by the German-Jewish emigré novelist Leon Feuchtwanger (1884-1958), titled "The Jewess of Toledo". It describes the historic, probably at least in part factual, love of Castilian King Alfonso VIII for the Jewish Rachel.
In sum, there was no integration, but there were cultural exchanges and influences over the centuries, in architecture for example, as AMPARO has mentioned, and in other fields as well, and they were lasting. After all, we are using Arabic numerals.
1amparo
September 2, 2006 - 08:42 pm
”Amparo - can you tell us about Don San Diego Matamoros who fought the Moors? Is he the patron saint of Spain today as in Cervantes time?” Here is the little I know:
San Santiago (St. James) is the Patron Saint of Spain. It is said that his remains are buried in the cathedral of “Santiago de Compostela” in Galicia, North west corner of Spain.
El Camino de Santiago is a well known pilgrimage walk across the top end of Spanish Peninsula. Santiago was beheaded by king Herod and his body taken to were it was found buried in Compostela, so the legend tells us.
As to “matamoros”…., well, that was a name given to anyone who, at the times of the Moors, killed a few, therefore Santiago was well and truly dead by then, (I think!)
Even now all over Spain on the saint name’s day of festivity (every city, town and village has a saint or virgin to commemorate; Valencia, my city, has the Virgin of the Forsaken [hence my name] and St Joseph). So, in Valencia on the festivity of the Virgin of the Forsaken, 2nd Sunday in May, the virgin statue/image is taken in procession through the city. I don’t know when Santiago has his day, but as he is the Patron of all Spain; it is a BIG festivity up in Compostela.
I have been few times in Santiago de Compostela, been down the crypt to see his remains, (no miracles for me, I must be bad and worthless
).
Amparo
Joan Pearson
September 3, 2006 - 10:58 am
A sunny Sunday here! The rain has stopped...no Ernesto damage here to report. The rain was much needed, so will not complain!
Traudee wonders whether we should rejoice or be apprensive at all the new develpments in these chapters. I'm a worrywart - so I see all sorts of clouds on the horizon. But I think I see some character development not present at the end of Volume I. That is good news.
The history of the time is much in evidence in these chapters, don't you think? - the distrust and dangers resulting from the expulsion of the angry - and saddened Moors.
Traudee mentions Ricote's sense that he is in danger when Sancho recognizes him. Is that the reason he offers to share his buried treasure with Sancho? A bribe so Sancho will not blow his cover? We know how Sancho loves money - almost as much as food. But he DIDN'T accept Rocote's offer. Is this a change in Sancho? Thanks for adding more to our knowledge of the Moors and their impact on Spain, Traudee.
When the pair meet the farmers carrying the plaques, Don Q. seems really moved at the images of the warrior saints who have dedicated their effort to the protection of the Church. He even says that when he succeeds in freeing Dulcinea, he'll change his ways and fight for the church. More development?
Amparo - I had thought that St. James, the Apostle and San Diego Matamoros were two different saints. Thank you for setting us straight about that. Same person, resurrected on banners and plaques in the battle with the Moors. You write - "Valencia, my city, has the Virgin of the Forsaken [hence my name] Will you expand on this? Is your name "Amparo"? I thought that meant "protector"?
Hats, I wanted to see what the carved images for the alterpiece looked like too..I did a search for the banner or placque and could only find the following - "It took 8 hundred years for the Visigothic Spaniards to rid themselves of their Muslim overlords through a military reconquest process known as "La Reconquista". The old patron saint James the Apostle gained a peculiar character during this period of time as the militant symbol of a return to Christianity. He was often called "Santiago Matamoros" or San Diego Matamoros" which means "St James the Moor-killer". He was depicted on the war banners as a man on horseback with a sword in one hand a cross in the other riding over a fallen Moor. And yet, albeit in a secondary position, the Virgin Mary maintained her religious position of importance in the Reconquista." St James the Moor-killer
Joan Pearson
September 3, 2006 - 11:19 am
These last chapters were like a roller coaster ride weren't they?
- With ups and downs!
We passed through the episode with the farmers and the carvings without incident - no misunderstandings leading to battle with the farmers - not even close! Sancho thinks this is a good omen. DQ warns him not to assume anything - Mother Nature does not prepare us for the bad times ahead.
And sure enough - something happens with the "shepherdesses" and their green nets. (You did notice they were green?) Don Q. didn't see them. He got snared, just as the birds who thought they were flying free. Why did Sancho's added comments inflame him so? Why would he do something so...stupid as to put himself in the path of the wild bulls?
Was he testing his powers as a knight?
Hats, I see Don Q. giving thoughts to death too as he comes to grips with reality, And as you say - when he calls the inn a castle you get the feeling that he is really regaining his senses. And yet each time he does, he seems to have a relapse.
I was approaching Zaragoza with a feeling of anticipation - and dread. I was happy to cancel my reservation. Thought something was going to happen there to end the story. Or at least this would be the last episode in the novel. I felt a bit relieved that Don Q. would not have to face the other jousters with his old suit of armor...or has the duke provided him a new outfit? At any rate, I was happy that he would not be further humiliated at this tournament of tournaments!
Traude S
September 3, 2006 - 06:33 pm
When DQ and Sancho are finally on their own again, the images of the saints obviously brought comfort to the Don, and he recites with pleasure all he knows about their lives.
Saint Martin was one of the most popular saints when I grew up in Europe. His Roman name was Martinus, and Martin Luther was named for him. He is the one who cut his coat with a sword and gave half to a beggar. He ceased forthwith to be a Roman soldier, devoted his life to Christ, and became archbishop of Tours in France.
Sancho marvels again at such knowledge and believes there is nothing DQ does not know. Then he changes the subject to Altisidora. He confesses that he, Sancho, would not have been as steadfast as the Don, and the Don admits it was not easy. DQ has no explanation why Altisidora's eye fell on him, he knows he is not handsome, but dismisses everything by saying that it was all the doing of Amor (Cupid) and his arrow aimed at her.
Is it possible that there may be a darker meaning to the adventure involving the netted birds? The color green is definitely a hint. We read that the young maidens are richly dressed as sheperdesses, and that is true for the similarly attired adults who come to join them.
But I wonder about the real purpose, the feasting, the tents, why the netting of the birds? More amusement for the idle rich? Whatever happens to the birds?
The Don is ready to believe that these beautifully dressed people are founding a new Arcadia.
But I remember that up into the 20th century song birds were routinely netted on the island of Capri (they are culinary delicacies; the authorities turned a blind eye), until the practice on Capri became illegal, at long last. There are references in The Book of San Michele by Axel Munthe, one of the most fascinating books I ever read.
Could something like this have happened in Cervantes' Spain?
For Don Quixote to stand in the middle of the road and loudly issue a challenge to all and sundry is foolhardy in the extreme, IMHO. His blind belief in the rightousness of his calling is astounding, though touching. He sees only armed men, not the large number of cattle that rush past and trample everyone and everything in the process.
DQ is shaken and humiliated, refusing to eat, but Sancho prevails and they make their way to the inn. Perhaps it is some small progress that DQ realizes that it IS an inn, not a castle. kitchen. The accommodations must have been poor, given the thin walls and lack of even basic foodstuffs.
Yes, I think that DQ changed his mind about Zaragoza the moment he overheard the men talking in the next room about the fake volume II and DQ's alleged plans.
JOAN, I too am a worrywart and afraid for the Don. Let's keep close tabs on him!
1amparo
September 3, 2006 - 07:06 pm
Interesting link on Santiago. However there is one very prominent "lost in translation":
Early in the Middle ages a southern Visigoth king named Roderic (the ancestor of the name Rodriguez)
Nothing of the sort! The three very famous Visigoth kings were: Ataulfo, Recadero and
RODRIGO. Rodrigo is a first name very much in use even today, as it is the surname of
Rodriguez! Why can't historians get things right?!
Good old Santiago; resurrected to fight the Moors!
My name: The virgin full name is
Maria de los Desamparados = Mary of the Forsaken and my full name is therefore a mouht full: the Spaniards love to shorten long words (thank God for that) so we are called
Amparo (the verb is "amparar" 1st person singular: yo AMPARO = which means I help /aid/soccour, the helpless, forsaken, in need etc).
Amparo PS. I am running late for a meeting. CUL
marni0308
September 3, 2006 - 10:33 pm
Something just struck me. I was reading the part about St. James (Santiageo or San Diego) being the patron saint of Spain. I never knew this before. And I thought about the name Santiago....Sant iago. The iago must be the James part. I thought of Iago in Shakespeare's Othello. He's one of the darkest villains in all of Shakespeare. Do you suppose Shakespeare deliberately named his villain Iago because it was the name of Spain's patron saint? England and Spain would have been at war at that point and Shakespeare tried to please Queen Elizabeth with his plays.
Marni
hats
September 4, 2006 - 04:00 am
Will Sancho ever flog his body???? He won't allow Don Q to do the flogging. I think Don Q is losing patience with Sancho's promises to flog himself. The Don wants Dulcinea disenchanted and fast!!
Are there really men, bandits, hanging in the trees? Now that spooky! Oh no! the bandits are living men! This is another adventure or misadventure.
hats
September 4, 2006 - 05:50 am
JoanP that in interesting information about St. James the Moor Killer along with the painting.
I have been reading about the talking head. This is another trick played on the Don and Sancho.
Joan Pearson
September 4, 2006 - 07:49 am
Good Monday morning, mis comadres!
Marni - that is quite an interesting thought on Shakespeare's Iago! San Diego, Spain's Moor-killer - Santiago - Iago, plotting against the Moor, Othello. Wow! Amparo - are you familiar with the name "Iago" - other than Shakespeare's character?. Shakespeare's Iago
Thank you so much for Sharing your name with us. Maria de los Desamparados rolls right off the tongue. Were you ever called "Maria" by family or friends? Or were there just too many Maria's?
Traudee - thanks for more information on St. Martin. It's important isn't it? "He ceased forthwith to be a Roman soldier, devoted his life to Christ," Isn't this what Don Q. tells Sancho - that he will cease his knight-errantry and fight for Christ and the Church, once he removes the spell over Dulcinea. This seems to be weighting heavily on him. After all, it's his fault that Merlin put the spell on her - to punish him.
I thought DQ had forgotten all about the spell and the lashings, Hats. Was it a dream he had - another dream that he was in Montesinos. Cave (purgatory) that causes him to wake up and gp right to Sancho demanding that he start flogging himself at that very moment. What did you think...when Sancho replied, "I am my own lord, now?" Don Q seems completely helpless now.
Hats, the bandits' corpses hanging from trees was not an uncommon site at the time, I gather - That's simply what was done with bandits! Maybe the number of bandits in the tree was unusual. Maybe Barcelona has a crime problem!
I think that being surrounded by the live bandits was really frightened our pair. Sancho is worried about the 200 gold pieces (which they never found) - I was surprised to see that Sancho still had Altisidora's kerchiefs. Do you suppose he got them from her? Given them? Stole them?
I thought the relationship, the admiration and understanding between Rocque Guinart and our Don Quixote was one of the more touching in the book.
Traudee - I don't know why I still have this feeling of forboding...does anyone know that the Don and Sancho have decided to go to Barcelona, besides Rocque and his friends? do you think the picnicing nobles were another of the duke and duchess' schemes? I never thought about that, though I worry that the folks at the inn who told of the fake volume II had a motive. And now they know that the Don and Sancho are not going to Zaragoza after all. Will they report this to enemies of Don Q? Hmmm...who would you say his enemies are? Surely not the duke?
marni0308
September 4, 2006 - 05:40 pm
JoanP: I did just read - in Chapter 58 or 59, I believe - where Don Quixote does ask Sancho to finish flogging himself so Dulcinea can be disenchanted. Sancho again puts the Don off. I'll check back to see where it is and what Sancho says.
1amparo
September 4, 2006 - 06:06 pm
You are taking your donkeys
"Por los cerros de Ubeda", as Sancho would say. = you are miles out!
I have seen and heard Domingo sing the opera Othello "the Moor", I know Iago's part; the nasty one, but hey!, for Spanish no Iago:
San-ti-ago. We don't break syllables as English do. And no, I do not know of any other "Iago".
I used to have the complete works of Shakespeare, I think my daughter took it to read it years ago....
When I was a child I was called
Amparin, in fact some of my friends and relations still do.
, Yes, it was an estrange name for the British and they would call me Maria. As all females born in Spain during Franco's time had to have "Maria", in Spain it does not count unles of course one's name is only that, nothing else. I refuse to answer to "Maria".
Amparo PS. Me thinks queen Elizabeth I would had been very glad to get rid of the Catholics, not the Moors.
hats
September 5, 2006 - 01:24 am
Whoops! Excuse me. Now I am ahead of schedule. Sorry. I should have backed up instead of going forward. Since September seemed to come so quickly, my timing is totally off. I noticed my mistake after reading the questions in the header.
Mippy
September 5, 2006 - 06:04 am
Hats ~
I am a bit behind, but not out of sight, following the rest of you, which makes up for
you being ahead.
Lots of company over the long weekend made it impossible to read DQ.
I think I just got to the resumption of Sancho's lashings ... which seem to me to be unfair and wrong.
Is DQ still so mad that he does want Sancho to continue the lashings?
hats
September 5, 2006 - 06:08 am
Mippy, I missed you. I thought you might have gone out of town. I am you had fun with your company.
Traude S
September 5, 2006 - 07:59 am
There is reason to worry about DQ whose trust in what he sees is child-like.
But DQ has not forgotten the lashes, in fact his longing for the disenchantment of Dulcinea becomes more urgent and more anxious. During a sleepless night he decides he himself would administer the lashing of the sleeping Sancho - just to speed things up. As he begins to undo the string of sancho's belt, Sancho wakes up.
We would have to determine what word the various translators use for "string' and, more important, what the original Spanish word is.
Sancho is indignant, not without reason. "Who is touching me?", he asks, concerned about his privacy and physical modesty. He fiercely resists despite the Don's feeble explanations. He overpowers the frail Don, sits on top of him and extracts a vow from the Don that he will not forcefully bring about the lashing, which, Sancho says, he will do himself when the time is right.
The master has lost out to his squire.
Part Two does not contain the lengthy, separate novels found in Part One. But Cervantes must report just one more tale abut another maiden who was promised marriage. Never mind that Claudia has only heard that her lover, Don Vicence, will marry another, she is a hot-head and sets out after him and his party and shoots him point blank.
Then she has second thoughts and goes in search of Roque, the bandit leader.
Grossman tells us in a footnote that Roque is a historic figure of the age, he fought constantly in factional wars and was known to the clergy and nobility - and most of all to the common folk. In the end he turned his life around.
Roque was respected and feared by his men, Cervantes tells us. If his handling of the Claudia incident is any indication, his justice was fair. He divided the spoils evenly among the men. He spent his nights alone, they knew not where, as befits a wanted man. He reminds me of Robin Hood just a litle bit.
DQ, Sancho, Roque and his men part cordially outside Barcelona.
Roque had sent word ahead of the Don's and Sancho's arrival to one of his friends in the city, assuring him that they would make for great "amusement". The Don decides they will enter the city at daybreak - and that is what happens.
But is this welcome really genuine or is there deception?
judywolfs
September 5, 2006 - 08:01 am
I finished the book over the long weekend. And don't want to say too much about it until eveybody catches up. Whew - I am very weary. AND I'm kind of secretly proud of myself - I so often wanted to abandon the trail! Thanks to all of you who kept me going, I never would have attempted this book without this Sr. Net discussion group.
~JudyS
Joan Pearson
September 5, 2006 - 08:04 am
Buenos dias, mis comadres!
Our mornings are precious times together...as their numbers dwindle. Our quiet knight seems to be aware the trail is coming to an end too, doesn't he? His talk of death, his squire who no longer fits the role...his plans to prevail triumphantly in the tournament in Dulcinea's name, abruptly cancelled. He dreams again of the vision of her under the spell as an ugly, crude peasant girl. He wakes, feeling helpless. Helplessness leads to anger and he ORDERS Sancho to fulfill his promise to whip himself. Mippy - you find this unfair, but DQ really believes that Dulcinea's fate depends on Sancho's flagellation - and Sancho did promise he'd do it. I don't think Sancho believes the three peasant girls of the dream were enchanted. I think he knows that Dulcinea was not one of them.
Not only doesn't he believe it, but he no longer recognizes Don Q. as his master! "I am my own Lord, he tells his former master!
Poor Don Q...no wonder he sounds so depressed! He no longer has a dream, impossible as it was. Did you notice Rocque ignore his offer to go off and defend Claudia's honor? Rocque will take care of it, leaving Don Q. with his band of bandits.
One case after another, we have seen a wooed maiden who has been promised marriage and then abandoned. I can't help but wonder about this. What did you make of it? Was it such a common occurance at the time? Did a girl or her family have the right to go after the suitor to avenge her loss of honor? Was he so blameworthy that DEATH was the obvious punishment? Had her Vicente married another, would Claudia's actions have been justified in the eyes of society? How could Don Q. have helped her, had Rocque let him go? How did Rocque handle the situation? I really liked Rocque! The name too! Sounds strong.
Amparin , (never Maria)...we will rein our donkeys back from the "Iago" connection, but you must admit it would work here. Good thought anyway, Marni!
Hats - I'll move up your thoughts on the enchanted head tomorrow. Today we're looking forward to your thoughts about Rocque. As tough as he is, he is a teddy bear, I think! Why is he an outlaw? They will hang him if he's caught!
ps Judy...stick with us, please! Happy that you made it! Pat yourself on the back! (But not so hard as to make whip marks!<
hats
September 5, 2006 - 08:38 am
Congratulations Judywolfs!
marni0308
September 5, 2006 - 01:33 pm
Yay, Judy! I hope we all make it!
I'm behind again. I have to catch up. When I read here that the Don decided to lash Sancho with his belt and was undoing Sancho's belt while he slept and then Sancho caught the Don at it, I just roared with laughter! Can you imagine Sancho's thoughts!!?? Too funny!!
Marni
hats
September 5, 2006 - 01:37 pm
judywolfs
September 5, 2006 - 01:44 pm
Poor Sancho. Everyone else is so insane regarding the illogical and crazy idea that his self-inflicted whipping will cure the enchanted Dulcinia of being an ugly peasant. Is it possible that people could be so naieve?
JudyS
hats
September 5, 2006 - 02:05 pm
I just hope the lashes never happen. I don't blame Sancho for protecting his own skin.
Deems
September 5, 2006 - 02:42 pm
Congratulations Judy! It's amazing what having company can do to make a long journey happier, isn't it? When I look at all the pages behind, I almost don't believe that I've made this journey too--and for the first time.
Hats--I don't think there's time enough for Sancho to give himself all those lashes, is there? And he cleverly said that they had to be voluntary.
When Sancho declares that he is his own master, I sense that the time he spent as governor, despite the fact that it was all a cooked-up scheme of the duke and duchess, has done him good. He seems to have gained a new confidence from his short time as governor. With no experience, he made good decisions and was much admired. So now he tells his "master" that he is his own man. Good for him.
I'm still a little behind, but I'll make it to the end. I'm also reading The Poe Shadow with JoanP and somehow I will squish it all in along with the reading for class and some required TV watching (the premier of "House" tonight, love that show).
Maryal
judywolfs
September 5, 2006 - 05:32 pm
You're right, It really IS more fun when friends are with you on the journey! I think Sancho has always been his own master, he was (and is) a faithful squire, a faithful husband and father and a faithful friend. But he's his own master - and has been since the beginning of the book.
~JudyS
marni0308
September 5, 2006 - 09:04 pm
I had to watch House tonight, too. Ah, he did it again. He's so brilliant - but dangerous.
Mippy
September 6, 2006 - 07:17 am
Off subject ~ Yes, House is quite a guy. Cannot stop watching it, although lots of the plots are bogus.
JoanP and Maryal ~
Any plans to zoom through the rest of DQ a bit faster? How much longer to the end? With Latin starting next week, I'll be torn between activities more than usual, but I'll try to comment.
Yes, the sun rising out of the sea is exciting, but everything was new and exciting to Sancho, wasn't it? That's part of the reason we like him so much!
The imps at the gate are hard to fathom. I guess there have been too many people beating up DQ and Sancho to take these pranks seriously.
Joan Pearson
September 6, 2006 - 08:51 am
Good morning, mis comadres!
Judy - good, you are still with us - poised to make the triumphant entry to the finish line with our weary, but proud band of finishers! I'm not sure that "everybody is so insane regarding the illogical and crazy idea that his self-inflicted whipping will cure the enchanted Dulcinia" - only the Don who is delusional we'll all agree. I don't think Sancho believes it either, Hats! That would explain why he's in no hurry to whip himself! THAT WOULD BE CRAZY!
I thought Merlin specified that Sancho had to whip himself, but Don Q is so desperate after dreaming of Dulcinea in the cave again - he decides he'll have to do it himself. Marni...if he uses Sancho's own belt, that ought to satisfy Merlin, don't you think? Hats - but it wouldn't be voluntary would it?
Do you remember the first time you saw the sun come up from the sea - at the horizon? Really a moving experience! Mippy, I agree, we like Sancho because in many ways he is emotional and childlike! We see things from his eyes! He's more excited about the sun and the sea than the adulation for the knight from the crowds on the beach.
Everyone recognizes them! How? Surely not from Rocque's letter? Have all of these people read about Don Quixote and Sancho - one version or another? (who was Tordesillas? Author of yet another fake version of Volume II?) Of course Don thinks they are cheering his exploits, but they are really looking forward to signs of his amusing madness!
Sancho may be childlike in some ways, but as Judy points out...he's a man. His own man. I think we'll see in the episode of the talking head today that Sancho was indeed impressed with the time he spent as governor - nurtures the desire for another opportunity, perhpas? As Maryal points out - this is where he gained the confidence to stand up to Don Quixote. No longer master and squire, they proceed as equals into the events of Barcelona.
Hats - I'm going to move your comments on the talking head to today's discussion...right now...
ps Mippy - with everyone behind us in our dust, (but Judy), I can't see us "zooming ahead" while playing catch up. If we stay on the present pace, (a chapter a day) we should reach the end of the trail by September 17 - 18 or thereabouts.
hats
September 5, 2006 - 01:22 am
The talking head really does fool Don Q. "Don Quixote meditated at length on the response of the enchanted head, never realizing the deception, and always concluding with the promise, which he regarded as certain, of Dulcinea's disenchantment."
I like it when Cerevantes includes Cide Hamete Benegeli, the translator's thoughts. Cide H. Benegeli goes in great detail explaining what makes the talking head. I thought the explanation very interesting.
"Cide H. Benegeli wished to explain the matter immediately in order to curb the astonishment of those who might think some magical and extraordinary mystery was contained in the head...."
Joan Pearson
September 6, 2006 - 09:15 am
Hats - wasn't it funny how Don Antonio kept the head such a secret and then quickly revealed the trickery behind it?
You point out something important - "Cide H. Benegeli wished to explain the matter immediately in order to curb the astonishment of those who might think some magical and extraordinary mystery was contained in the head...." The explanation for revealing the truth - fear of the Inquisition's wrath!
Didn't Don Antonio have the thing built long before Don Quixote arrived in Barcelona? Maybe he knew the event would be chronicled and got cold feet that the Inquisition officials would get wind of the magic hidden in his house. What really amused me - Don Q. continues to dwell on what the head had told him - even after the mechanics of how it worked had been explained to the assembled!
I think we are seeing in these chapters that Don Q. is as deluded as he ever was - regarding knight errantry and his role as a knight. But what does Sancho believe?
JoanK
September 6, 2006 - 10:23 am
A MUSICAL HISTORY OF SPAIN
AMPARO: the movie "Guettero (sp?) a history of guitar music in Spain came and I plan to watch it tonight. Do you know this movie? You are the one who introduced me to the guitar music of Rodrigo.
I'm very far behind. Some extensive dental work has left me so full of painkillers that I can hardly think. When you all see me in October, I'll either have new teeth, or no teeth at all.
But I'll stumble through the rest of the book with you.
marni0308
September 6, 2006 - 12:52 pm
Oh, JoanK: I'm with you on the extensive dental work! I had to have a gum transplant today! I never thought I'd see this day. Apparently, if I didn't have it done, my teeth would fall out. Aaagghhh!
I'm sitting here taking pain killers with an ice pack on my mouth. BUT, I can still read and type.
-------------------------------------
A question - or rather an answer - related to Cervantes was on Jeopardy last night. I knew it ONLY because I'm reading Don Quixote. HAH!
marni0308
September 6, 2006 - 12:53 pm
I have an interesting footnote in my edition about Roque Guinart. "Perot Rocaguinarda, known as Roque Guinart, was a notorious Catalan bandit with the reputation of a Robin Hood figure; he was pardoned in 1611 and sentenced to serve ten years as an infantry captain in Naples; considering that Cervantes began writing this part in 1614, this is a very contemporary reference."
I'm going to see if there is anything about him on the web.
Marni
marni0308
September 6, 2006 - 12:59 pm
"A famous robber, whose true name was Pédro Rocha Guinarda, leader of los Nicerros, which, with the los Cadelles, levied heavy contributions on all the mountain districts of Catalo’nia in the seventeenth century. He was a Spanish Rob Roy, and was executed in 1616. (Pellicer.)"
http://www.bartleby.com/81/14493.html Here's something:
Click here
judywolfs
September 6, 2006 - 01:08 pm
Joan, you're absolutely right - DQ is really the only one who actually believes Sancho's whipping himself will cure the enchantment. I guess I got so impatient with that crazy thought I wanted to whip every character in the story (except Sancho, of course)!
Does it seem to some of you that Don Quixote is helplessly incurable, that he can never come to his senses?
~JudyS
JoanK
September 6, 2006 - 06:26 pm
WOW! that history of Spanish guitar music is incredible!! Where is Amparo: I wished I had her with me to explain what I was seeing. It is classical guitar (with a brief section on flamenco). I haven't finished it -- in two hours, it only got from the first piece published for guitar (in the 1540s) to about 1850. The music is played with a background of incredible Spanish scenery, art, architecture, artifacts, and people. It would drive GINNY crazy -- they always tell you what piece is being played, and when they read Garcia Lorca's poetry, but rarely what you are looking at (exceptions -- Goya's paintings, and the views of the Alhambra accompanied by "Memories of the Alhambra" by Tallenca (sp.), so far my favorite of the composers I've heard).
AMPARO: (WHERE ARE YOU?) they show three types of scenery: flat, flat dusty plains, high mountains, and rolling, rocky slopes. Are any of these typical of the terrain where DQ is traveling? So far, very few trees, but our friends always seem to be able to find one.
Traude S
September 6, 2006 - 06:34 pm
MARNI, the translations all seem to have a footnote concerning the bandit Roque.
Here's what Grossman says on pg. 852:
"Perot Roca Guinarda was a historical figure whom Cervantes had already praised in his dramatic interlude La cueva de Salamanca. Born in 1582, he fought constantly in factional wars, and although his adversaries favored the nobility, he received support from members of the aristocracy and the Church hierarchy, including Don Antonio Moreno, who plays a part in Don Quixote's adventures in Barcelona. Roca Guinarda was known for his chivalric nature, and like other Catalan bandits, or bandoleros , he eventually abandoned his former life of crime and fought for the Spanish crown in Italy and Flanders. In 1611 he was granted a pardon and left for Naples as a captain in the Spanish army. The date of his death is unknown.
As Martín de Riquer indicates, the topic of the Catalan bandit became a romantic theme in the literature of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, as exemplified by these passages in Don Quixote."
(Martín de Riquer, born in 1914, was a noted 20th-century historian, expert especially in all matters regarding Cervantes, his work, historic dates, specific terms, authentication of nomenclature etc. etc. Grossman refers to him countless times in her footnotes.)
We know that DQ Part One was widely read and popular. But the clamor and heavy (promotional) "drumbeat" preceding DQ's and Sancho's arrival in Barcelonawas clearly arranged by Roque and further orchestrated by Don Antonio, who had power, influence, and money.
The technical details of the "talking head" as Cervantes describes them are positively ingenious. But DQ and Sancho did not know any of these details, for when the session with the head was over, we read
"With this the question and answers came to an end, but not the amazement felt by everyone except the two friends of Don Antonio who were privy to the secret. Cide Hamete Benengeli wished to explain the matter immediately ... etc." (emphasis mine)
And Chapter 63 begins :
"Don Quixote meditated at length on the response of the enchanted (!!!) head, never realizing the deception, and always concluding with the promise, which he regarded as certain, of Dulcinea's disenchantment. ..."
According to footnote 9 on pg. 874, Chapter 63, of the Grossman translation, Avellaneda called himself "a native of the town of Tordesillas." Apparently there was no Barcelona edition of the "false Quixote" in the seventeenth century; the second printing appeared in Madrid in 1732.
There's a lot more in Chapter 63, including another beautiful young maiden and more than one rescue, and we already know some of the characters!
marni0308
September 6, 2006 - 08:46 pm
2. Did Sancho's experience among the galley slaves remind you of the earlier blanket-tossing episode?
It certainly did! It was exactly the same thing! Sancho was tossed from one galley slave to the next, on and on, and he was totally pummelled all the while. The galley slaves - even the slaves! - apparently were in on the "joke" that Don Antonio set up. Sancho ended up in a heap, totally humiliated like he had been after the blanket tossing which had bothered him very much for a very long time afterward.
How did Don Quixote add further to his embarrassment aboard the galley?
The Don decided that this was now a good time for Sancho to be whipped to stop Dulcinea's enchantment. The Don figured that Sancho was so sore from the galley tossing that a couple of thousand stripes with a whip wouldn't bother him much.
marni0308
September 6, 2006 - 08:53 pm
3. Why did the Governor of Barcelona spare the life of the young captain of the Algerian pirate ship that fired on the Spanish ship killing two soldiers?
The young attractive captain turned out to be the morisco Ricote's beautiful (of course) Christian daughter (Sancho's ex-neighbor) who had been taken to Algiers by her uncles who didn't believe she was really a Christian. Her father had planned to bring her back and take her to Germany with her mother where the family could live without torment from the Spanish Inquisition. The girl was in the process of escaping from Algiers to go back to Spain, but 2 Turks aboard had foiled the plan. The Turks were actually the ones who had killed the 2 Spanish sailors on the Don's galley. The Governor of Barcelona believed the girl's story and it ended up that no one was hanged.
1amparo
September 7, 2006 - 12:37 am
“Tordesillas” cradle of the Castillian Kings, Queens and language, also a surname (needless to say from Castilla). Tordesillas goes back to VI BC. Here is a link to it. I think it will open in English, if not you can select from the selection of languages on top then select "History + History Events" from top left and drop down menu.
Tordesillas - History JoanK. Rodrigo is my favourite composer of Spanish music (he was from Valencia and only died few years ago; he was blind.) But I don’t know the movie "Guettero”, nor have I heard of it. Can you show a link? Or is it a CD?
Cheers all.
Amparo
hats
September 7, 2006 - 02:18 am
JoanP thank you for moving over my posts.
Amparo and Marni and All thank you for the links too.
I am hoping we will all meet up on the end of the trail. Cerevantes would have felt proud of us.
I can't believe the young man is a Christian girl. I hope the Captain will kindly pardon her. A young lady being hung would leave a nasty taste, I bet, in Don Q's mouth. I don't want to read about a girl's hanging. I have to read the rest of the story.
hats
September 7, 2006 - 02:42 am
Now there are two cross dressers. The girl is dressed as a boy. The girl decides to protect the boy from danger by having him dress as a girl. "...because among those barbarous Turks a handsome boy or youth is more highly esteemed than a woman, no matter how beautiful she may be."
The girl is Ricote's daughter. I can't believe it. The pilgrim without a safe haven until he arrives in Germany is Ricote. Sancho knows Ricote. They shared stories near the end or at the end of Sancho's governorship. What a reunion!
What beautiful and loving words!
"O Ana Felix, my unfortunate daughter! I am your father, Ricote, who came back to find you because I cannot live without you, for you are my soul."
There is so much happening in this one chapter. No one is going to be hanged either. What good news! These were dangerous times to live in. I can't imagine trying to hide my religious faith, going from one country to another country to live in safety like Ricote. Plus, so many other dangers.
Joan Pearson
September 7, 2006 - 12:54 pm
IF I have to read of another beautiful girl...or guy, I think I'll, well I won't say it in polite company. But really now! Is Cervantes describing these maidens in superlatives in imitation of the old books of knight-errantry? One more beautiful than the next. If they are ALL so gorgeous, it seems beauty would be the norm, hardly worth mentioning. And now we read of Ricote's daughter...beautiful of course...AND her boyfriend, so beautiful he could pass for man OR woman! In fact, he's so pretty even when the king knows "she" is a guy - he wants to keep him in his harem to present"her" to the Sultan! I couldn't believe it either when Ricote showed his face. I think the only reason he'd do that would be concern for his daughter. Otherwise he'd be afraid to show his face in Spain, don't you think?
What on earth did Cervantes mean to say here? When the narrator said Don Gregario was in great trouble because "these barbarous Turks much prefer a handsome boy, or young man, to the most beautiful woman alive." Gulp. This from the mouth of Cidi Hamete! Is it an insulting remark? What does it mean to you?
What is the whole point of dwelling on beauty, or physical appearance? I can see it comes down to Don Quixote dedicating his life to defend an ideal. The ideal just happens to be Dulcinea's beauty. Everyone will have to be judged by her standard. Judy - Yes, his case seems to be"incurable". I don't see him ever coming to his senses. I guess that's why I'm happy when he meets someone who can accept him for himself...not to make fun of him - like Rocque Guinart.
Marni, I thought of Robin Hood too when I read about Rocque Guinart. (this is how Raffel spells the name "Rocque") He's so lovable...and he treats Don Q. with such respect, overlooking his little eccentricities. He seems to be the only person Don Q. has opened up to in the novel. And it went both ways. I was so touched when Rocque expressed a wish to change and Don Q. told him he'd teach him how to be a knight-errant. Really sad to read that he was executed...in 1616! Curiously this was the same year our Don Quixote died.
I can't put my finger on it, but from all you have posted here about him, I sense some of Cervantes in Rocque.
Joan Pearson
September 7, 2006 - 01:21 pm
Thanks to both of you for the information on Tordesillas, Traudee and Amparin - I misread the reference to The Second Volume of That Ingenious Gentleman, Don Quixote de La Mancha, witten by someone FROM Tordesillas. Thanks for straightening me out. Thought there was more than on fake volume out there!.
Speaking of Rodrigo did you notice the article in Sunday's Washington Post on Valencia, JoanK? I hope I saved it for Amparo when she gets here, but just in case, I found it on line...this is for you, Amparo...how accurate do you find it?
Valencia
Marni, I'm worried about Sancho and his new-found self-esteem! He's totally humiliated just when he was basking in the reflected glory of Don Quixote. And to make matters even worse, the Don tells him to take off his shirt like the galley slaves and take some of those confounded lashings! What do you see in Sancho's future? There IS a lot packed into these chapters...we're in for more as we make our way home...
ps I hope that extensive dental work is behind everyone...until 6 months from now!
Marni, I've never heard of such a thing, but consider the alternative and just be happy there are such things as painkillers!
pps. What was the Jeopardy question, I just have to ask!
marni0308
September 7, 2006 - 03:00 pm
JoanP: I can't remember the question - it had something to do with a scene from or a quote from Don Quixote and they had to guess who the author was.
Yes, those painkillers are great.
I don't think I'd be smiling right now without them!
Joan: I don't think I quite agree re "I'm happy when he meets someone who can accept him for himself...not to make fun of him - like Rocque Guinart....he treats Don Q. with such respect, overlooking his little eccentricities."
I think Roque was a gentlemanly bandit and very pleasant to the Don and to Sancho. But he had some of the duke and duchess in him also. At the end of chapter 60, Roque writes a letter to a friend in Barcelona, where the Don and Sancho are heading. Roque lets his friend know about Don Quixote and tells him that the knight-errant will appear on the beach of Barcelona, armed and mounted on his horse, and with Sancho on his donkey. "He, therefore, desired his correspondent to communicate this intelligence to his friends the Niarros,
that they might have some fun with Don Quixote, and wished his enemies the Cadellis be deprived of this
diversion. But the latter was a vain desire, because
the mixture of madness and reason in the knight, and the pleasantries of his squire, were such as could not fail to yield entertainment to the whole world in general..."
Roque was setting up the Don and Sancho to be entertainment for others. Could we expect them to be humiliated again? There might be be more enchantment or maybe some disguises....And, of course, there was - the enchanted head and then the galley and sea voyage.
JoanK
September 7, 2006 - 05:02 pm
AMPARO: DVD: Can you play American DVDs in Australia? I'd heard there are regional differences.
Because it's DVD, it has film of great Spanish art work, Cathedrals, towns, people, and countryside. It's like a great tour, accompanied by beautiful music. I'm still looking for a link.
Traude S
September 7, 2006 - 06:14 pm
True MARNI. Roque is not completely sincere with DQ. He sends one of his men, carefully disguised so as not to look like the bandit he is, to a friend in Barcelona with detailed information when DQ and the squire will arrive in the city.
Everything is pre-arranged by Roque, and more humiliations are sure to follow.
Sancho's being tossed by the rowers from one end of the galley to the other is like the unfortunate blanket-tossing episode. That has left a painful memory, and Sancho complains about it from time to time.
The Don is like a man possessed in his fixation to get Sancho's whipping over with; his obtuseness is almost beyond belief.
1amparo
September 7, 2006 - 06:47 pm
Thank you JoanP! Yes, very accurate article on Valencia. I can tell you it was written last year in October, when Zubin Mehta(my favourite conductor) played for the first time in the newly Inaugurated “Palau de les Arts” = Palace of Arts. I missed the concert because I was in Naples getting a picture of Caecilus in Napoli Museum for Latin class.
But I was on that beautiful building, the new Palau, the day, and few hours before, Queen Sofia opened it. About its architect, Calatrava, would you believe it that more than once I pushed him and his twin sister (deceased) on their pusher? Used to be friends of his older brother (Pepin =Joseph) and sister (another Amparin!)
And from here in Australia I was able to get free concert tickets for a concert on Rodrigo’s Concierto de Aranjuez. I sent an email to the City Council telling them I was coming with friends who never been to Valencia before. I was lucky enough they did reserved tickets for me as they are on first come first served basis and must be in person… and when we went to collect tickets the Palau was alive with security, very nice and pleasant all of them. When I asked them why, they pointed to a car: The queen’s car! All it had as number plate is the royal crown.
Anyhow, going back to the city: I was born about four hundred yards from the Cathedral, I can walk the old city blindfolded. The Pope was in Valencia few weeks ago, I watched live videos of him when he was outside the Cathedral and Basilica; I could almost see my old building! Had to laugh at the paella with rabbit: it is the typical original one; chicken, rabbit and in some cases snails included! Yummy!!
JoanK, I have heard about DVD from America not being able to be played here in OZ. I can play in my laptop all kinds of videos, even the SeniorNet “Short GoodNews Broadcast Video”.
Cheers.
Amparo
JoanK
September 7, 2006 - 07:10 pm
AMPARO: and you told me about that concert and I got a CD of Concerto de Arenjuez -- I'm playing it now while I type.
The DVD hasn't come to Valencia yet, I think. It doesn't always tell you where it is. I'll let you know -- I still have a hundred years to go. Did any composers live there?
1amparo
September 7, 2006 - 07:49 pm
In Spain, Valencians have a name for being artistic and artisans and as such Valencia has many clever people. Composers next to Rodrigo... Serrano, Iturbi (him and his daughter and sister,[both Amparo] also composed music, Iturbi lived for many years and died in Los angeles), Padilla composer of the very famous song "Valencia". These are some of the ones that come to mind, there are many more that I cannot remember their names.
Cheers mate.
Amparo
marni0308
September 7, 2006 - 09:15 pm
2. Was the appearance of the Knight of the White Moon with his challenge to Don Quixote completely unexpected? Did you think it was a joke? What made you think he didn't intend to harm Don Quixote?
Aaahhh...the bachelor Sanson Carrasco finally showed up. I was waiting and waiting. I knew he would arrive eventually. He was determined to get his revenge upon Don Quixote. However, I was led to believe he would be more wicked and vengeful than he actually turned out to be.
To get the Don to duel Carrasco sticks out the carrot of a lady more beautiful than Dulcinea - the one thing sure to get the Don into a fight. He wants the Don to admit that Carrasco's lady is more beautiful. If the Don loses, he must give up knight-errantry for one year and live at home in peace and tranquility. If the Knight of the White Moon loses, he will give up his arms and horse to the Don, transfer to him his "fame of achievements," and give up his life if the Don wants that.
I loved that the viceroy asked Don Antonio if this was another one of his jokes upon Don Quixote. Don Antonion is "perplexed" and isn't quite sure what to do. It was decided that the duel would go on.
Don Quixote lost to Carrasco. He and Rocinante both fell down. Carrasco had deliberately lifted up his lance so as not to hurt the Don. Afterward, he insisted the Don meet the terms of the duel - to go home and stop knight-errantry for a year - to which the Don agreed because it was a matter of honor.
3. Were you surprised when the Knight of the White Moon's identity was revealed? Does his concern for Don Quixote's sanity and cure seem genuine?
It was no surprise that he showed up, but he was gentler than I expected. It turned out that he actually was a friend after all. He was actually interested in the Don's welfare and in getting him back home. I don't see any nastiness or vengefulness in Carrasco's behavior. He was doing what he had promised the Don's niece - to get her uncle to go home and to cut out the chivalry stuff from the books so he might be cured of his madness.
4. Do you think Don Quixote will abide by the terms of the challenge and refrain from knight-errantry? Do you think he's mentally strong enough to wait for a year?
Absolutely, I think he'll follow the terms agreed upon. However, it's a terrible terrible blow to him and to Sancho. "For six whole days did Don Quixote lie a-bed, malingering, melancholy, mauled, and meager, revolving in his imagination, and meditating incessantly on the unfortunate incident of his defeat." He is disconsolate.
Mippy
September 8, 2006 - 07:13 am
Stopping in to note you covered those questions very well, Marni, while all I can think to add are questions.
Does getting DQ home satisfy his life-long goals?
Or it the niece taking charge of his life, wanting to tuck him safely in bed, without books?
Somehow, it makes me think of present day families, tucking their elders into nursing homes, or is that too harsh?
marni0308
September 8, 2006 - 08:52 am
Mippy: It does sound like tucking today's elders away. And isn't the Don only about 50 years old? I suppose that was rather old back then.?
I can understand where the Don's niece is coming from, though. It seems she feels responsible for her uncle, who is acting nutty for sure. She is living in his home, so it seems a reciprocal arrangement - he takes care of her; she takes care of him. We didn't hear much about it.
The niece doesn't seem to be a reader from what I can see and she surely isn't into books of chivalry. Earlier on I didn't see that she cared much about him. But at other points in the book, I think we see that she does care for him and wants him home and out of danger. She probably loves him - it seems that many people in their town do. He's a really nice guy. Maybe she's embarrassed about him, too. His actions would reflect on the family.
Don Quixote, on the other hand, must be feeling his age, probably wants to assert his independence, wants some love in his life, and seems to want to make a difference in the world before he dies. He has chosen the world of chivalry and knighthood, a world of some fantasy and some reality, a world of excitement and romance with some danger thrown in, where he meets new people, is out of the house, has a buddy to talk to, is his own man and a hero besides. No wonder he has become "Don Quixote de la Mancha."
I have feelings like the niece about my parents who are in their mid-80's and not doing well taking care of themselves. My dad is constantly in and out of hospitals, nursing homes, and home, having heart attacks, pneumonia, you name it. He is blind and can't walk and can't take care of himself. He expects my mother to take care of him. My mom is starting to forget many things, gets very confused easily, is starting to have car accidents, can't take care of anything financial, and won't throw anything away. What a pair! And there they are - won't move out of their home into assistant living.
They have meals on wheels, in-home VNA service, cleaning services, a weekly in-home bookkeeper, and plenty of insurance. Plus they have 5 children who help them, me included. But it's very difficult. Actually, it makes me cry just writing this. What a dilemma for me and for Don Quixote's niece!
Deems
September 8, 2006 - 09:18 am
Mippy and Marni, how wonderfully you present the dilemma that families face. What to do with the elderly? I think that Don Q's reason for living is to be a knight errant. Yes, he is in the latter part of his life, but maybe, as Mippy suggests, he wants to make a difference. If his sole aim is taken from him by a year's forced retreat, it's unlikely that he can return, isn't it?
I thought the description of Don Q in the printer's shop was fascinating. It makes you understand how new printing was and how important. The same sort of revolution that we are all in the midst of now with the computer.
How miraculous, if you think about it, it is that Matthew Pearl can visit with his readers online, whether he is at home or, as is the case this week, in Poland. No special arrangements have to be made. All he needs is internet access and Pop! there he is.
I think in the future people will look back to this time and wonder what it must have been like before the internet, how on earth people ever managed to exchange ideas. How did we all live before there were cell phones?
Do you all realize how close to the end we are? Just about time to get Don Q home and see what happens then.
Wasn't it interesting how short the duel between Don Q and the Knight of the White Moon was? Almost as if Cervantes, knowing what he planned to do next, just couldn't bring himself to describe it in much detail. Even the injuries afterward are played down compared to what has been the case in the past.
Sancho, as always, tries to buck up his friend. I think it's his cheerfulness that I like the most. Wonder if he learned that from his proverbs?
The tossing of Sancho between the oarsmen in the galleys was surely meant to echo the earlier blanket tossing, but even here, Cervantes seems to me to cut the description short, the better to preserve a little of Sancho's dignity.
Maryal
Joan Pearson
September 8, 2006 - 09:40 am
Good morning afternoon, mis comadres! Today is getting away from me...and aren't things starting to move QUICKLY for Don Q?
One day he's volunteering to go for Don Gregorio, all puffed up from the adulation he's receiving for his knightly prowess, and just like that, he's on his way home.
In the first volume, I had trouble deciding why Don Q. was writing this book. To entertain, make a living from his writing? Or to put forth his views on the impossible times he was living in - the Inquistion, the social constrictions...etc.
It seems in Volume II that we are becoming painfully aware of how hard things were in Spain at this time...for the Moors who must leave their homeland and in many cases, families and for the Christians too. Is it me, or do Don Quixote's struggles to defend Dulcinea's beauty seem rather petty when you consider what others were going through? Is Dulcinea important at all in the story? Is she essential to Don Quixote's call to fight for justice, to right wrongs?
And yet it is to defend her beauty that Don Q. does battle with the Knight of the White Moon! That is the only reason he agrees to the terms the White Moon Knight proposes. Why would any sane knight make such a challenge? I thought for sure that the whole thing was a set-up to make Don Q. look ridiculous.
Like you, Marni, I've been watching for the appearance of Sanson Carrasco, but NEVER for a minute thought that he was the White Knight!!! Especially watching him go out of his way not to hurt Don Q! I am still watching for some way Sanson will get his revenge from his earlier embarrassment!
Do you believe that this is how the novel will end, Don Q making his way home to live out the year with his niece? How can this help him, cure him? As you point out, Marni - he's not an old man...and he hasn't been mortally wounded - just bruised a bit. What will he do for a year? Oh, and remember, his books are GONE, burned!
Mippy - I can't really believe that the book will end like this - because DON Q hasn't really accomplished his goals, has he? I have to ask you this - what do you see as his goals?
I'm still reeling from the quick turn in the state of affairs. To tell the truth, I thought at the end there would be a big showdown - quite possibly with Sanson Carrasco, and that the result would be Don Q's death - BUT that he would feel he'd accomplished something!
marni0308
September 8, 2006 - 09:41 am
Maybe Cervantes has realized that a little goes a long way. He's probably learned something about writing in the ongoing 10 years between Volume 1 and Vol. 2.
It really is amazing how just one little thing can totally change a civilization. (Maybe not so little.) The wheel, the arch, cement, steel, printing, computers, PCs, internet, cell phones.
I was just thinking about it yesterday. I was driving around in my '73 convertible beetle which just had a tune-up, having fun on a beautiful day. I stopped at Dunkin Donuts for a vanilla bean coolatta (fabulous) and was paying in the drive-in line when my car went dead. Totally dead. Gone. Couldn't get my car started - not even a sound.
How embarrassing! There was a huge line behind me beeping. Two people pushed me in my car out of the way. I whipped out my handy dandy cellphone and called AAA. They were there to help in 10 minutes. It was fabulous in a bad situation.
Now I just have to get my car fixed up and figure out how to sell it.
Joan Pearson
September 8, 2006 - 09:43 am
Maryal, Marni we were posting together...I too was moved by Don Q's attempts to cheer Sancho - someday, he'll be a count, right? Do you think either of them believe what they are saying to cheer the other?
I'm amazed that this man wrote a novel over 400 years ago, and yet he is so accessible to us. Humans have changed as rapidly as has technology! I have to add - I've loved being able to communicate with you all - it as made a huge difference in understanding so many of the references that might have gone unnoticed!
marni0308
September 8, 2006 - 09:47 am
Maybe Cervantes was speeding things up at the end because he wasn't well. Didn't we read that he died before Vol. 2 was even published? Also, didn't another person write a version of Don Quixote's sagas and get Cervantes really mad? He probably wants his own version out fast to compete and to set the record straight.
Joan Pearson
September 8, 2006 - 09:48 am
Marni...why sell her? That would be like Don Q. selling Rocinathe for a new improved model!
marni0308
September 8, 2006 - 09:50 am
The bug is driving me and Bob crazy. It takes up room in the garage and stalls easily. I don't trust the car. It's too bad because it's really fun and so CUTE.
judywolfs
September 8, 2006 - 01:29 pm
Who was it that mentioned how quickly things are happening in these chapters? I agree, it seems that suddenly Cervantes wants to wrap up the whole thing and end the book, it's not a particularly graceful thing to do after such a long journey together. Suddenly, Dulcinia doesn't seem to matter a single iota either, except as the vehicle to force DQ to defend her beauty one last time. I guess these last few chapters aren't my favorite ones.
~JudyS
marni0308
September 8, 2006 - 07:20 pm
I didn't think Dulcinea stopped mattering to the knight. She had always been like a symbol to him of the knight's lady to whom he could dedicate his chivalric deeds and the one he could champion. It had always been platonic. He had never seen her except when he thought he saw the enchanted Dulcinea. I don't think he really wanted to see her. She was more of a fantasy to him that he could dream about, sigh over. She was his romance - much better than a real person who would have faults and flaws. It was Dulcinea whose beauty he fought to defend in the duel with the Knight of the White Moon, his last chivalric deed before he had to lay down his arms and go home.
1amparo
September 8, 2006 - 07:35 pm
You are all quite right; Cervantes did know he was dying, in fact he died 3 days after the book was finished!
This has been a very rewarding discussion for me; I have seen points in DQ I had never did notice before. As JoanP so perfectly has it:
"it as made a huge difference in understanding so many of the references that might have gone unnoticed!"
During this discussion of Cervantes book, thanks to you all, I have been transported in my own little "Rucio" to happy times long past.
You all deserve a prize for your perseverance on getting to the end of Don Quixote de la Mancha. I hope you have enjoyed the book as much as I have enjoyed being with you.
I look forward to next month and meet with some of you. Thank you
JOANP you have been fabulous!!
Hugs to all.
Amparo
Traude S
September 8, 2006 - 08:00 pm
So many interesting questions are being raised, about DQ's goals, for example. And there are so many more ... I believe we have grown in understanding of the human condition.
We know that Cervantes was not well at this point in his life. Similarly DQ is defeated by he knight of the White Moon, drained of his energy, has lost his reason for being, self-esteem, and his will to live.
Don Antonio uncovered the identity of the knight but DQ and Sancho were mercifully unaware of it.
At the beginning of the story we meet a gentleman "somewhere in La Mancha" in a place not named, who is a member of the rural gentry and leads an ordinary life, circumscribed by the routines of activities and the food eaten on specific days. Perhaps he was in reduced circumstances : beef was served more frequently than lamb (which was more expensive).
He lives with his niece and a servant, and keeps company with the priest and the barber. He has read voraciously for years, from sunrise to sunset, from dusk to dawn, and has become entranced by novels of chivalric lore. His family name is variously given as Quixada, or Quexada, even Quexana.
One fine day he decides to become a knight himself, repeat the splendid adventures about which he has read, and redress all the ills of the world. Although those around him think he has lost his mind, he proceeds with the preparations undaunted.
In chapter 1 of Part One, we are also told that "in a nearby village there was a very attractive peasant girl with whom he had once been in love, although she, apparently, never knew or noticed. Her name was Aldonza Lorenzo. And he thought it a good idea to call her the lady of his thoughts." Searching for an appropriate name, he decided to call her Dulcinea de Toboso, a name which to him represented everything that was sweet, musical, beautiful and full of significance.
We must realize that DQ created Dulcinea, perhaps based on Aldonza, but she never existed in the flesh as an independent person.
To DQ - and to the readers - she became absolutely real. In defense of her unsurpassed beauty and honor he went out in search of adventures. Dulcinea became his guiding star but she lived only in his mind and fantasies. As his own life ebbs away, it is only natural that his thoughts of Dulcinea fade from his mind.
In a few chapters we'll see how the story ends.
marni0308
September 8, 2006 - 08:07 pm
I just finished the book. I'm so excited! I can't believe it! For years I had said to myself that I'd have to read Don Quixote, and I never did til now. Huzzah!!
hats
September 9, 2006 - 02:28 am
Marni,CONGRATULATIONS!! I just finished chapter lxviii. I am Slowpoke, the turtle. I once had two turtles as a little girl. One was named Slowpoke. I can't remember the name of the other one.
Without the help of:
1.JoanP
2.Maryal
3.Amparo
4.Traude
5.Alf
6.Marni
7.Mippy
8.JoanK and PatH
9.Judywolfs
10.and all the other mounts, not forgotten
I would not have made it this far. I will never forget this wonderful summer of adventure with Sancho and Don Quixote.
Joan Pearson
September 9, 2006 - 08:10 am
Good morning, mis comadres!
Though our mornings together dwindle, we still have a way to go, as we escort our deflated knight and his stunned companion back to his village. Marni has gone on ahead! Triumphant trumpet noise! Cymbals!!! Please stick to the trail with us, Marni...we need your brain to understand the developments which are coming fast and furious right now.
Please believe me - Like Hats, I haven't read ahead, and have don't know how this will play out. Do your best not to reveal but please stick with us until next week, okay? We still need you!
I'm still full of a zillion questions about this White Moon Knight who has managed to stop our knight in his tracks. Can you imagine how else Cervantes would have ended his story, had he not the character of Simon Carrasco in his inventory of characters to pull out?
Amparin - I didn't realize Cervantes died three days after he finished the book! Can't you just imagine the effort that went into writing these last chapters? Perhaps that's the reason he didn't go into an explanation of the name he gave to Simon - Knight of the White Moon! Did you have any thoughts about this name?
I googled it and came up only with the information that "White Moon" is the name the Chinese gave to the November moon. (We call it the Beaver Moon)
What of the crescent moon - the symbol of Islam?
"The crescent moon and star is an internationally-recognized symbol of the faith of Islam.
The crescent moon and star symbol actually pre-dates Islam by several thousand years. Information on the origins of the symbol are difficult to ascertain, but most sources agree that these ancient celestial symbols were in use by the peoples of Central Asia and Siberia in their worship of sun, moon, and sky gods.
The city of Byzantium (later known as Constantinople and Istanbul) adopted the crescent moon symbol. According to some reports, they chose it in honor of the goddess Diana. Others indicate that it dates back to a battle in which the Romans defeated the Goths on the first day of a lunar month."
Crescent Moon - Islam
Does any of this help? Do you see any connection between Sanson Carrasco and the crescent moon of Islam? What do we know of Sanson Carrasco - and why would Cervantes give him this name? I'm still wondering why Sanson is going out of his way to topple the knight? Surely he is harmless? What is in it for Sanson?
Thinking in more basic terms, what is the moon? It's whiteness? Isn't it simply the reflection of the glorious light of the SUN? Is that Sanson's motive? Reflected glory - to be known as the man who brought down the great Don Quixote in future publications of the story of Don Quixote and his Sancho? If this is his purpose, I'd say he's accomplished it! Maybe he didn't want to hurt the knight as that would tarnish his image. He didn't mean to kill him...but maybe that's what he did!
OR Do you believe that Sanson came to bring the knight homefor humane reasons...out of love for the knight and concern for his well-being?
"Don Antonio uncovered the identity of the knight but DQ and Sancho were mercifully unaware of it." Oh
Traudee - I do hope this is the case! I didn't realize this - will go back and reread the battle scene once again.
Traude S
September 9, 2006 - 10:34 am
JOAN P, I agree, "white moon" is symbolic in some way. Could it be just the moon and the fact that it rises as night approaches, and isn't darkness also symbolic of death?
I have discovered so much in my re-reading with your help and insights and realized how many details I had forgotten (if indeed I ever fully appreciated them) from the first reading a lifetime ago, when I was a teen and knew little of the world.
As impatient as some of us, including me, may have been with the Don and his eternal "blind spot", I know that I will be softer on him ultimately, and possibly even on Sansón.
Mippy
September 9, 2006 - 01:56 pm
Ah, ha, I've
finished the book ... but will not reveal anything ...
This has been an amazing summer with DQ and Sancho and
all of you!
With Latin 104 starting this week, I'll be a bit distracted but will try to drop in.
1amparo
September 9, 2006 - 06:52 pm
Good on you mate
, and my
also.
Amparo.
hats
September 9, 2006 - 11:49 pm
Mippy,Congratulations!! Good luck in Latin 104. I didn't know you could graduate to different levels in Latin. I bet you are awfully smart.
hats
September 10, 2006 - 12:51 am
Ginny, If you happen by and see this, that Printer Friendly option is really helpful. I used it to reread some posts. Wow! It's easier not to miss a post using that Printer Friendly option.
JoanP, I am on my mount again. It is interesting information about the Crescent Moon and the Star being Islamic symbols. I might have seen these symbols in another discussion. The symbols look very familiar. Maybe I had a chance to see the symbols in MY NAME IS RED. I can't remember.
Joan Pearson
September 10, 2006 - 11:23 am
Another comadre makes it over the finish line! Congratulations, MIPPY! You should feel very proud of your accomplishment. Give yourself a pat or two on your back. (Not lashings, though!)
Did you note in these chapters that Don Q has not forgotten his Dulcinea and her enchantment? Did you notice that despite the fact they are out of commission for a year, he is still after Sancho to administer those lashings? This is a strong indication that Don Q. is as delusional as he was at the start of Volume I!!!
Not only that, Sancho agrees to do it! Did I read that right? What does that say about Sancho?
Traudee - I reread and you are so right! Don Q. has no idea that Sanson Carrasco was the White Moon Knight!!! He believes that someone challenged Dulcinea's beauty and that he went down, defending her. Does he blame his arms, his horse? He still has no idea of the reality of the situation. Why so down? He can go home for a year and restore his spirit, his arms...maybe get another horse. What do you think? Does he sound as if he intends to go home and forget all about knight-errantry?
Hats - unless we meet Simon Carrasco again in the next few chapters and are given reason to believe that Simon represented the Turk, Islam as the Knight of the White Moon, I don't think that there is enough reason for us to assume this is what Cervantes meant here. However, there is enough evidence to indicate that Cervantes is much consumed with his role in fighting the Turks for the Church...and now seems to be questioning how the Church is treating the Moors who have ruled Spain for such a long time! Wasn't it interesting the way he lavished praise on his sponsor the Cardinal...and the King - for their wise decisions to expell all Moors from Spain?
Maybe we will never learn Cervantes' intention when naming the Knight of the White Moon, Traudee. Your suggestion that the white moon rises when darkness/death approaches might have been on his mind. Also the idea that the moon reflects the light of the Sun suggests to me that Simon wanted to share the reflected glory of Don Quixote in the next printing of the History of Don Quixote...and wanted to come across as the one who liberated him from his madness and brought him home. I still have little regard for Simon - and his motives. And yet, he comes down through the ages as the man who brought down Don Quixote.
Deems
September 10, 2006 - 12:19 pm
I'm almost through myself. I've been trying to get to the end in between the reading I must do for classes--two by Poe, would you believe?--plus swimming and other assorted outdoor things.
But I'm only up to LXX.
As for the Knight of the White Moon, I never would have thought about the implications. Thank you, Joan, for thinking about what the name might mean. I do think that Carrasco has good motives in wanting to bring Don Quixote home. He sees that DQ is an elderly man and knows his niece wants him home. And it is dangerous on the road. However, he's not quite well enough developed for me to make any clear calls.
Sancho, on the other hand, comes into his own over the course of Part 2. DQ remains delusional in the one area of knight errantry while he is educated in many other areas and not at all mad.
The duke and the duchess are truly horrible people to me. They would go on with DQ and Sancho forever if they could. Couldn't they find something else to amuse themselves?
Maryal
marni0308
September 10, 2006 - 02:16 pm
I wonder if Sanson Carrasco felt so obliged to bring the Don home because he, Sanson, had promised the Don's niece that he would do so. Maybe a promise to Sanson was as sacred to him as it was to Don Quixote and Sanson was determined to fulfill his promise.
Regarding Sanson as the Knight of the White Moon.....It is interesting to think about the flag of Islam but I usually think of the moon on it as a "crescent" moon.
Wasn't the moon important earlier in the pastoral story of Marcela in Part I? I'm just checking back. Her mother had a sun on one side of her face and a moon on the other. Marcela went around dressed like a shepardess and spurned the young men who fell in love with her like Diana, or something?
I was looking around on the internet to see if I could find anything out about it. I read that Don Quixote arrived at the beach in Barcelona on the
summer solstice. Aren't solstices associated with the sun and the moon? Could there be a relationship here?
I also read something about the Knights Templar. I wonder if Cervantes read anything about the Knights Templar. One story about them is that they worshipped an idol called Baphomet. Here is one description of Baphomet. (Note the white moon.)
"The goat on the frontispiece carries the sign of the pentagram on the forehead, with one point at the top, a symbol of light, his two hands forming the sign of hermetecism, the one pointing up to the
white moon of the Qabbalistic Chesed, the other pointing down to the black one of Geburah. This sign expresses the perfect harmony of mercy with justice. His one arm is female, the other male like the ones of the androgyne of Khunrath, the attributes of which we had to unite with those of our goat because he is one and the same symbol. The flame of intelligence shining between his horns is the magic light of the universal balance, the image of the soul elevated above matter, as the flame, whilst being tied to matter, shines above it. The ugly beast's head expresses the horror of the sinner, whose materially acting, solely responsible part has to bear the punishment exclusively; because the soul is insensitive according to its nature and can only suffer when it materializes. The rod standing instead of genitals symbolizes eternal life, the body covered with scales the water, the semi-circle above it the atmosphere, the feathers following above the volatile. Humanity is represented by the two breasts and the androgyne arms of this sphinx of the occult sciences."
http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefsbaphomet2.htm Qabbala or Kabbalah - Isn't that the religion that Madonna practices?
Here's an article that has something to do with symbolism in Don Quixote and which mentions the white moon. It's beyond me, though:
http://www.h-net.org/~cervantes/csa/articf94/colahan.htm
gumtree
September 11, 2006 - 12:28 am
Sadly, I was forced to set DQ aside just after the end of the first half but I have no intention of abandoning the quest and will finish it - come what may!
I have been browsing the posts here and there and found many comments which are so insightful and informative that they are a joy to read So even though I'm not up with the reading I have gained a great deal just by lurking.
Thank you to one and all for your company, for sharing your knowledge and for your unfailing good humour.
Special thanks to Joan P - I really appreciated the 'wake up' calls even though i was unable to respond.
I hope I have better luck for the next 'Great Books' selection.
As Amparo says : Cheers
hats
September 11, 2006 - 05:18 am
Marni, thank you for the links. I think Don Q's song is so sad especially the last line. "I go on living and constantly die."
I think it's amazing all of this time, all though his goal doesn't exist, Don Q remains persistent in thinking of this one goal in his life, always remaining loyal to Dulcinea and never allowing any person to say harmful words about her character.
Hi Gumtree!
hats
September 11, 2006 - 06:58 am
Will wonders never cease???? I finished Don Quixote.
Deems
September 11, 2006 - 07:56 am
Congratulations, Hats!--Joan P--What with all these folks finishing, shouldn't we be issuing completion certificates? This is a long one, really two novels in length. Maybe two certificates of completion?
Maryal
Joan Pearson
September 11, 2006 - 10:05 am
Hello there, mis comadres!
Gum, we really appreciate your coming to greet the victorious at the finish line! I have no doubt you will pick up Volume II one of these days. Remember that the discussion will be easily accessible through the Readers' Guides, or directly in the Archives. It is packed with such wonderful information - and we will be with you in spirit!
Congratulations, Hats!!! Please promise you will stick it through to the end, like Marni has done. I really do appreciate the thought that went into researching the Knight of the White Moon. Underneath all the questions about that is understanding what motivates Sanson Carrasco - why DID he have to interfere in someone else's life. Don Q. was at the top of his game in Barcelona. It was nothing but cruelty to knock him from his horse and send him home a deflated knight. Surely Sanson knew this was his whole life! What would he do at home?
Marni...reading your research carefully I'm seeing now a tie-in with the White Moon and the shepherdess, Marcela...and Diana. I think - as you do - that the crescent moon of Islam is not what Cervantes had in mind when naming the White Moon Knight.
Sure enough, the very next scene is on the field where the knight was trampled by the wild bulls - the same field where the duke and duchess had staged the scene with the nobles playing the part of shepherds and shepherdesses. Marni the last page you supplied was wonderful - though over my head too. This struck me - " Don Quixote compares them (the shepherdesses ) to Diana, goddess of the moon and ruler of the night."
Hmmm...does Sanson represent the night? And Don Q. the sun? Still the unanswered question!
Don Q. wants to spend the year living the pastoral life of a shepherd. Just like Marcela. I haven't read ahead, honestly. I've said all along I'd like to meet Marcela again. Maybe, just maybe she will reappear. Why does Don Q wish to live here? Does it beat going home to that empty room without books?
No certificates until my donkey gets in...they are buried in his saddlebag, quite wrinkled, tired and dried up - but then, so are we!
judywolfs
September 11, 2006 - 10:52 am
I happened across this quote a couple days ago, and it immediately daught my attention:
"Evil enchanters change rural country inns into towering castles,
forlorn young lovers into princesses and princes, the exquisite Dulcinia into a coarse farm hand – only this knight knows of such deceptions! Of course, there are no enchanters today. Are there?
We pride ourselves as being psychologically and technologically sophisticated; enchanters have been banished to movies and novels. They do not inhabit our day-to-day world. There are no Merlin’s to change the meaning of things. Is Cervantes suggesting, with this seemingly quaint delusion, something that we might do well to think about?
Do we not have our own advertising, journalistic or political Merlins, our own television mystifiers? Should we not be cautious, and perhaps a little suspicious, as we look at and interpret our world? Cervantes, I believe, was too good a writer to bring in “evil-enchanters” merely as a cover-all for his knight’s actions."
- Gargiulo, G.J. (2005) "Remembering a Forgotten Hero" in The East Hampton Star (May 19, Section
.
http://www.geraldjgargiulo.com/downloads/RememberingForgottenHero.pdf ~JudyS
marni0308
September 11, 2006 - 01:33 pm
Congratulations, Hats!
Poor Don Quixote in chapter 68. We see the trouble he has sleeping. He sleeps in fits and starts, waking often and comparing himself to Sancho, whose sleep "always lasted from night till morning; a sure sign of few worries, and an excellent constitution." The Don wakes Sancho up and says he is amazed at the "insensitivity of thy disposition."
I had to laugh. The Don says, "Observe the serenity of the sky, and the solitude of the place, which invite us to make an intermission in our repose. I conjure thee, by thy life, to rise and go aside to some proper place, where with good will and grateful inclination, thou mayest conveniently inflict upon thyself three or four hundred lashes, on account of Dulcinea's enchantment....we will pass the remainder of the night in harmony..."
Yeah, sure. You can imagine Sancho's response. The Don is not going to let Sancho off without fulfilling his scourging. Is Sancho ever going to complete his whippings?
Joan Pearson
September 11, 2006 - 05:53 pm
Are you finding these final chapters somewhat amusing despite the ominous clouds on the horizon? Don Q. isn't sending signals that he's through with the impossible fight. He's still after Sancho to administer those lashings - and then what? Then Dulcinea is once more beautiful...and his?
I am laughing at Cervantes...have you been noticing his introductions to these chapters? This one at the start of chapter 68 really tickled me - and I'm not sure why.
"which deals with what any reader of these pages will see for himself, and anyone who has read this to him will hear"
Marni - I wasn't sure when the reasons for the Don's sleeplessness. On the one hand he seems to be saying that God is punishing him for his sins. (I think he said that after the 60 pigs ran over him.) A guilty conscience is keeping him awake? What were his sins? Then - as you point out, he's blaming Sancho for sleeping soundly - for "the insensitivity" of his disposition. I'm with Sancho. Sleep is essential. I guess á clear conscience helps too.
Judy, thank you for bringing the quote. The author asks... "Should we not be cautious, and perhaps a little suspicious, as we look at and interpret our world?"
I think that would be an important lesson to be learned from this work...one of many! Before we close the shop, it might be fun to state what we have learned, what bit of wisdom we will take from this discussion as we go forward on our own individual trails?
But not yet. Tomorrow, Chapters 68, 69! I feel like a muledriver again...and mine is the only slow nag here!
marni0308
September 11, 2006 - 09:39 pm
These last chapters are definitely amusing, to say the least. 60 pigs running over the Don. HONESTLY!!! What next??? And the chapter titles are a riot!
But, it's definitely the lashings business that is becoming more and more hysterical!
hats
September 12, 2006 - 12:52 am
Marni, the lashings are "hysterical. I think it took a genius, Cerevantes, to handle Sancho's physical punishment in such a unique way.
No wonder
Amparo and others have read the book more than once. I would love to reread it in this lifetime. JoanP, now I can understand why William Faulkner read this book more than once.
Maryal, I disliked the tricks of the Duke and Duchess too. I am not sure what Cerevantes wanted us to take from that estate. All I can see is idle hands are a devil's workshop. One of my family's favorite sayings.
JoanP, I feel the same way. There are bits of wisdom scattered throughout the book all the way to the end. One of the pieces of wisdom I remember is the Don's attitude. He always desired to be a friend and helper to those less fortunate. Sorrowfully, his hands on approach, due to his state of mind, sometimes caused more problems than remedies. Still, I will always remember his good intentions.
When Don Quixote describes St. James the Moorkiller and then, St. Paul, I think the description fits Don Quixote's ideal in life.
"....a knight errant in life, and a steadfast saint in death, a tireless worker in the vineyard of the Lord, a teacher of people whose school was heaven and whose professor and master was Jesus Christ Himself."
I also see the theme of friendship throughout the book. Don Quixote and Sancho stuck together through thick and thin. They were different in status, still, some commonality led the two to remain together. They laughed together, ate together and argued their opinions together. These two men define friendship.
I also could see the theme of Church History. Don Quixote met people who suffered religious persecution for the sake of their beliefs. These people had the fortitude to wander from place to place in order to practice "freedom of religion."
hats
September 12, 2006 - 05:29 am
Probably, the saint part of the deifinition doesn't fit Don Q. The Don would say he fought with arms rather than with words.
Joan Pearson
September 12, 2006 - 06:24 am
Good morning, dear ones!
I'm really treasuring these last days together. You have been the best comadres - it would have been so difficult, maybe impossible to go through the Don's troubles - without YOU! Beautifully put, Hats! Forget Dulcinea - under it all, our knight wanted to right the wrongs he was seeing all around him - even when it seemed impossible that a single voice could make a difference. Even when he knew his opponents were bigger, more powerful, better equipped, better educated, he never hesitated to give his all. Do you see Cervantes doing the same thing?
Sometimes it has been difficult to appreciate the difficult circumstances of Cervantes's world - some of the references have been obscure. He's had to make sure that his writing does not offend his critics, he's got to be sure that his work not only speaks to the trials of the people, but entertains them at the same time! Right to the very end, when he feels his journey is over, that he has failed in his efforts, he continues to entertain us! To make us smile. As he wrote these chapters, Cervantes must have been feeling his life slipping away. His conscience bothers him because of unfinished business...promises he hasn't kept.
To understand Cervantes' message, we have only his knight for the answer? What would you say is weighing on his mind right now? He cannot sleep, even though he is exhausted. He wakes Sancho and begs him to administer the lashings to free Dulcinea from the enchantment. I'm trying to understand what was on Cervantes' mind, that he would occupy his last days with this. What does Dulcinea's enchantment mean to Cervantes?
I've given up trying to understand what motivates the Duke and Duchess. It has to be more than idle entertainment at this point. What possible enjoyment could they derive from this last scene? If not enjoyment, then what? Cervantes is trying to tell us so much more. Once again, it is Sancho - who is called upon to undergo torture to atone for sins he did not commit. For the sins of the world? (And Cervantes makes us smile once again at the pain of being tortured by the touch of the dueñas' vinegary hands!
Hats...maybe the "saint part" does apply? I'm wondering about the meaning of the "black" Inquisition conducted in hell?
Mippy
September 12, 2006 - 06:40 am
Sorry, everyone, I'm running out of lol.
These final chapters just don't make me laugh. Sancho's lashings are just not amusing.
What lessons do we learn from DQ and Cervantes? Great question, JoanP!
I take it you'd like to postpone our answers until later in the week, si, sinora?
Keep riding along, amigas! The end of the adventure is near!
Pat H
September 12, 2006 - 08:42 am
I feel bad about having dropped out of the don Quijote discussion, and feel I owe everybody an apology and explanation. The first thing that happened was that a friend of mine of 40 years was hospitalized for some months with serious complications following heart surgery.
I was her only resource in this area, and did all the necessary stuff of visiting her, bringing her clothes, buying her a computer, etc., which got more time-consuming as things progressed. She finally lost her battle in late July. When the dust settled, I went to see my daughters, (1 in Boston, 1 in Pasadena).
My daughter in Boston and her husband had invited me to come with them to Paris in September. A lot of my spare time since has been taken up with resurrecting my French, which means turning off my Spanish. (My SIL, a cognitive psychologist, says that at my level of expertise thinking about one language interferes with another, and I find he is right.)
So I got behind, and every time I thought I might rejoin, something else came up. I kept thinking I could manage to rejoin, but I never quite made it. I am leaving today, and will be back the 25th, by which time you will probably be done.
I regret this lost opportunity: the discussion was magnificent, and I won’t get another chance like this. Amparo, I particularly appreciate your input. I hope to meet you in October at the meeting here. My Spanish is rusting because of the French, so it will be even more pitiful than usual, but you will understand. Thanks to everyone for such a good time.
Pat H
September 12, 2006 - 08:45 am
Here is a painting I sawat the Museum of Fine arts in Boston that seems to stepped right out of don Q. It's magnificent--I sat and stared at it for a long time.
http://www.abcgallery.com/E/elgreco/elgreco37.html
Phyll
September 12, 2006 - 01:21 pm
I loved the company but I just didn't like this book and it got worse as it went along. I couldn't find any of the humor in it that the rest of you seemed to find. I hated the cruelty that was through out all of it and the trivializing of women. I know that was the climate of the times but from My time and My viewpoint it just wasn't something that I could swallow.
I loved the play "Man of La Mancha" because it seemed to point to the nobility of a man who followed his dream through all odds, but in the book I found Don Q. to be disappointingly self-indulgent, crazy only when it was to his benefit, and just plain stupid in being constantly duped by nearly everyone he met.
I liked Sancho, at times, and not at other times. He had a down-to-earth practicality that appealed to me and yet I couldn't seem to forget that underneath it was greed that kept him so faithful to the Don. If he hadn't been promised so much would he have stayed so long with this delusional old man?
I enjoyed the opinions and insights of all of you though often I couldn't understand or agree with them. Still, I liked reading your thoughts. And I discovered Manchego cheese! So it was not a total loss!
Thank you, JoanP and Maryal, for guiding us along this rocky trail. I apologize for not keeping up with you all the time but I appreciate the effort you made to keep us all plodding along.
Traude S
September 12, 2006 - 06:49 pm
PAT H, have a wonderful time in Paris! Good to hear from you.
We cannot always follow up or keep up; life intrudes. There's our national mourning over 9/11. There's unexpected sadness, here for instance the death of a friend, the wake, the funeral. We carry on as best we can.
JOAN P, yes, I believe there is more symbolic meaning in the "white moon" than evident at first glance. The same is true about the "New Arcadia". But to even begin to explore all the historical, literary, philosophical, theological and veiled political references and allusions, we'd have to spend many more months.
That reminds me: One book group in Boston is committed exclusively to reading Joyce's Ulysses . Members have been at work for decades and, according to a recent article in the Boston Globe, there's speculation that they'll still be at it in 2010.
Chapter 66. DQ's defeat by the Knight of the Whie Moon has totally demoralized him. He feels that he failed his mission, he failed Dulcinea. His sleeplessness shows the depth of his despair.
Sancho, on the other hand, has always been the more practical of the two men. He is fiercely loyal to DQ so that, even though he himself thinks the Don is mad, he firmly rejects Tosilos' descruption of DQ as a "lunatic".
The former footman, Tosilos, is still in the service of the duke, we learn in that chapter, now as a courier on his way to the viceroy with a packet of letters from the duke.
DQ refuses to recognize him for who he is, but Sancho obviously believes him. We also learn in that chapter that Tosilos was flogged one hundred times for disobeying the duke's orders to fight DQ. There was no happy end for Doña Rodriguez or her daughter, either. She has
returned to Castilla, and the daughter was sent to a convent. Why isn't that a surprise to the reader?
Chapter 67. DQ's plan to become a shepherd is not quite a fully-fashioned plan. His friends, the barber, priest and the bachelor Carrasco listen to his idea of conviviality and merry-making in the meadows with renewed concern, fearing a new madness. The niece and the servant also question the practicaliy of living outdoors in summer and winter, exposed to inclement weather.
It is possible to assume, however, I submit to you, that DQ needed some idea, some plan to cling to, because he found the prospect of idleness for one whole year unbearable.
Re question 2 about chapter 67, I believe that DQ's asking about Altisidora indicates that he is at heart a sensitive man, who fears his harshly-worded rejection of her might have hurt her.
Chapter 68. The long arm of the duke reaches the homeward-traveling DQ and Sancho. Under armed guard and in total silence they are marched back in the opposite direction to the ducal palace.
Chapter 69. There, in the courtyard, stands the catafalque with the dead Altisidora. And there is also a stage; crowned VIPs on it; the duke and duchess and their retinue -- a clear indication, if one were needed, that this is not reality but once again stage-play. More deception, of the cruel variety. Again the duke and duchess display their power and might. If their intent was to strike fear in the hearts of DQ and Sancho, they succeeded. What a heartles pair!
marni0308
September 12, 2006 - 08:26 pm
Re: "His friends, the barber, priest and the bachelor Carrasco listen to his idea of conviviality and merry-making in the meadows with renewed concern, fearing a new madness."
I don't think I totally agree. I think they get into the whole meadows romp thing.
I'm wondering about all the shepherd and pastoral stuff. There's been a ton of it throughout the book. People getting dressed up like shepherds and shepherdesses and romping around in the mountains. Now the Don wants to do this also. And he's not alone. The bachelor Sanson gets all excited about it, too. He even writes poems about it and shares them with the Don.
So. What is Cervantes saying here? Is he being cynical regarding the illegality of chivalric literature and comparing it to pastoral literature which seems to be highly popular and acceptable? What is the difference between these types of literature? Why is one acceptable and the other outlawed? Does the govt. and church believe that chivalric literature leads to duels and death?
I've felt through the whole book that Cervantes was making a farce out of the fact that chivalric literature was against the law. The Don was made a ridiculous figure for acting out the role of the knight. But now his friends think it's neat that he's going to act out the role of the shepherd. Huh?
JoanK
September 13, 2006 - 02:25 am
Hi, friends. I've finally almost caught up, and hope to make the rest of the journey with you. And I'm looking forward to meeting many of you in Arlington, in October.
Yes, the whole tone of the book changes when the Knight of the White Moon defeats DQ. You can see it is the beginning of the end. It seems to me, that as DQ fades Sancho gets stronger. He jumps in and decides the business of the race, and DQ defers to him. It's hard to imagine this happening at the beginning.
I can't sleep, so will read on as fast as I can tonight. Oops -- the night is over. Oh, well.
Joan Pearson
September 13, 2006 - 08:10 am
Mis comadres!
It is heartwarming to see you gather here at the finish line - including those of you who left the trail. You were always in our thoughts - we kept turning back and scanning the horizon for you - but trees were always in the way - Cidi Hamete neglected to tell what kind of trees they were...
Pat H - what a friend you were to your friend! We should all be as fortunate! Of course we missed you, but realize when you get behind, it's difficult to catch up with the pack. We are really looking forward to seeing both you and Joan here in Arlington in October!
Thanks for the link to El Greco - from that site, I also enjoyed seeing his Portrait of a Cardinal - done in 1601. I remember seeing it in New York many years ago - it was the eyeglasses that ca my attention. Do you think Cervantes liked El Greco?
{{{Phyll}}} - you tried to catch us several times, we know you did! I remember talking with you about the knitted socks the students had purchased at the fair - and thanking you for your help with knitting my son's birthday sweater. (I'm going to thank you again by telling you that it won not only the blue ribbon for knitwork, but the overall "Champion" ribbon - a humongous purple thing at the Arlington County fair a few weeks ago. I plan to give it to my son along with his sweater for Christmas.)
Phyll you clearly stated your problems with this novel - and we will address each of them today. Thank you so much for taking the time to do this for us!
We look forward to your input in the next Great Books discussion. (Promise you'll choose something a bit shorter this time? Does anyone remember when we started this discussion?) We're here, waiting for recommendations any time you get an idea. Great Books Upcoming
What do you say, Comadres? Both of these gals deserve a share of the cheese for sharing with us at the finish line, don't you agree? Wasn't it great hearing from them?
judywolfs
September 13, 2006 - 08:46 am
These 3 chapters certainly changed my opinion of the bachelor Carrasco. He now appears to be a caring friend of Don Quixote, wanting nothing more than for the Don to go home and become cured of his madness.
The Duke and Duchess are shown to be unrelenting, cruel and vicious. After capturing the Don and dragging him back to the castle, blaming Don Quixote for Altisidora's fake death, sentencing Sancho to being slapped and pinched and threatening to kill him if he doesn't cooperate, followed by Altisidora's resurrection and finally her outlandish verbal attack on DQ, the Duke and Duchess casually stroll in for a little chat with Sancho and the Don, where a good time is had by all. How peculiar. DQ even joins them for a meal before leaving. This is just too far over the top. I simply don't understand the point or the meaning or the humor or the intention.
~JudyS
Joan Pearson
September 13, 2006 - 08:58 am
JoanK - still huffing and puffing to the finish line. I get the feeling that you are about where I am. Good! I enjoy the company, though the finishers have been great about lending support and much needed input!
You might have noticed that I just squeezed Chapter 70 into this discussion today and revised the schedule by a day. I began to read this chapter yesterday and Cervantes himself revealed the importance of this chapter -
"which follows chapter sixty-nine, and deals with matters that, for the understanding of the whole history, must be clearly understood"
Sooo, I thought rather than puzzle over the duke and duchess' reasons for the charade - and the meaning of the Inquisition-like trial Sancho had to undergo, it would make more sense to turn to Chapter 70 for answers - as Cervantes directs us to do. It's got to be an important chapter if Cervantes tells it must be understoon to understand whole history!
One of the questions Phyll raises is Cervantes' "trivialization of woman" - " Yes, I agree, it WAS "the climate of the times" - but was this Cervantes' attitude? We hear Don Quixote tell Sancho in this chapter that "the force of amourous disdain is clearly immense." Do you wonder if this was what motivated Cervantes to write the book? But Sancho says "all this stuff about people dying for love makes him laugh." He sounds like Shakespeare in "As you Like it," doesn't he? "Men have died from time to time...but not for love."
We are supposed to be dismissing Don Quixote as mad, and admiring Sancho's wisdom.
So which of the two is exprssing Cervantes' own attitude? Did you see him trivializing all women in his portrayals?
Judy - there are some telling lines in Chapter 70 - attributed to Cidi Hamete, (Sidi Hamid) - so I take it they are Cervantes' opinions: "Between farce and reality, there is very little difference."
"Those who concocted the joke were quite as crazy as those who were obliged to experience it."
Like you ...and Mippy, I'm finding the comedy no longer slapstick...but "farcical"- which is too close to grim reality to make me laugh. I do find the farce reveals the reality that prompts the Inquisition scene in the duke's courtyard.
WE are all seeing the Duke and Duchess are cruel...Cidi Hamete tells us that the reason behind the farce is "amusement" and yet at the same time we're told there is little difference between farce and reality. You have to ask - what is the reality of the duke and duchess' world that makes them take such delight in the shame and suffering of others?
marni0308
September 13, 2006 - 09:03 am
Another thing we see in the last few chapters of the novel is Cervantes' repeated blasts at the fake publication of a 2nd volume of Don Quixote. He can't let it go. The business must have bothered Cervantes terribly at the end of his life.
Deems
September 13, 2006 - 09:06 am
Traude wrote something that made me think. She mentions Sancho not wanting DQ to be called a lunatic.
Since the roots of lunatic go way back into French (and Latin before it) as the name for a person who was insane and went through moods like the phases of the MOON (luna), I wondered if that may not have been Cervantes' reason for naming Carrasco, the knight of the White Moon.
It is Carrasco who defeats DQ, yes, but to an extent it is also his "madness," the part of him that believes that he can be a medieval knight in the early 17th century, just like those knights (many of them fictional) in his beloved books.
Besides, DQ must be getting tired.
I think the whole book balances between Reality and Illusion (Imagination, fantasy, unreality).
When DQ's profession of knighthood is removed by his obligation to uphold his word and go home for a year, he contemplates another escapist possibility. He will leave the "real" world for the pastoral world (a fantasy too) and scamper through the fields with Sancho and his friends. Yes, marni, I think Cervantes is playing with the other wildly popular tradition of his time, the pastoral.
Back to grading.
Maryal
Joan Pearson
September 13, 2006 - 09:10 am
Marni, Traudee, maybe we need to go back and reread the section in Volume I - the discussion of Marcela's decision to leave the real world and spend her life in the freedom of the pastoral life of the Golden Age. Didn't she decide to withdraw from her world when the reality of it just got to be too much for her? I was hoping we'd catch up with her before the trail's end.
Deems
September 13, 2006 - 09:13 am
Joan P--Yes, Marcella and that Golden Age business. The whole point of the "golden age" though is that there never was such a time.
It's like trying to get back to the Garden of Eden. (Joni Mitchell song is playing in my head).
Phyll
September 13, 2006 - 09:14 am
You deserved it!!! I'm proud of you! As I know your son is, too.
judywolfs
September 13, 2006 - 10:49 am
Oh yes, Mippy – the constant harping on the “other” unauthorized DQ publication – Didn't Altisadora report that when she was dead she saw devils at the gates of hell playing tennis, using that evil book as the tennis ball.
When Cide Hamete points out that the duke and duchess are crazy, it doesn’t ring true, it seemed somehow to be an insincere statement, or some kind of deliberately lame excuse for their behavior.
Can somebody point out where that part about Sancho not wamted anyone to call the Don a lunatic is? I’m very interested in rereading that part in connection with his defeat by the Knight of the White Moon.
Deems – The image you evoked in my head when you described DQ’s intention to “scamper through the fields with Sancho and his friends” was hilarious
~JudyS
JoanK
September 13, 2006 - 06:06 pm
HURRAH!! I've finished the book! (If I'd read your post first, JOANP, I'd have hung back with you for awhile. Sorry.)
I think we finishers should get T-shirts -- like those ones I RODE ON THE NEWEST MONSTER ROLL-A-COASTER. It feels a little bit the same. as JOANP said "I think the whole book balances between Reality and Illusion (Imagination, fantasy, unreality)". That's the most intriguing part of the book to me, but I think, looking back, it makes me feel a little motion-sick. Up to philosophy, down to farce, in the middle with double meanings. WHEW!
If we get T-shirts, I can't even imagine what our fearless leaders should get. Do you guys realize the sheer amount of work, not to mention their usual brilliant thought, that MARYAL and JOANP have done: without the luxury that we have to lag when busy, or distracted or wanting a day off? In case you hadn't noticed, THEY'RE AMAZING!
But that comes later. One more hill to climb together.
Traude S
September 13, 2006 - 07:22 pm
JUDYWOLFS, the encounter between DQ, Sancho and the footman Tosilos is recounted at the end of chapter LXVI, 66.
After reading your # 975 I reread that chapter once more and found that Grossman's translation does NOT contain the word "lunatic".
I was answering JOAN P'S question # 3 re chapter 66: "Why does Sancho disagree with Tosilos when he calls his master a lunatic?"
In the Grossman translation of the book, the crucial word comes up in the third paragraph from the bottom of chapter 66 in a conversation between Sancho and Tosilos, and it is NOT "lunatic" but madman .
Even so, I think it matters little and my answer is the same. Though Sancho realizes perfectly well that DQ is blind to a fault where knight errantry is concerned, he does not accept (or suffer gladly) a characterization of his master as "lunatic" or "madman" from an outsider.
In fact he is miffed and refuses to fill in the gossipy-hungry Tosilos on any of the adventures that happened since the "dynamic duo" left the ducal palace for the first time).
Since JOAN P raised the question, I would assume that Raffel used the word "lunatic".
JOAN P, I very much look forward to the summing up.
Checking the net I found that periodic additions have been made to the earliest officially sanctioned GB list, and that is clearly how it should be; there can be no cap.
But if a foreign language classic were chosen again, it might be expedient to use the same English translation.
marni0308
September 13, 2006 - 08:10 pm
Yay, JoanK!
judywolfs
September 14, 2006 - 10:28 am
Thanks Traude about the "lunatic" explanation, no wonder I missed it, I was reading the Grossman translation. Congratulations to all who crossed the finish line, and to those who can at last see it in the distance. I think it's quite an accomplishment!
~JudyS
marni0308
September 14, 2006 - 11:40 am
I like Joan's idea about the T-shirts! That would be fun.
hats
September 14, 2006 - 11:44 am
I like
JoanK's idea too.
Joan Pearson
September 14, 2006 - 11:47 am
I've been babysitting two little guys since 7:30 this morning...and missed Joan K sneaking over the finish line without me! Yes, yes, quite an accomplishment! Not sure about the tee shirt, Joan. How about a bumper sticker - like "I survived Catholic schools." Have you seen that one?
The Catholic Church comes under fire countless times in Cervantes novel...but he remained steadfast in his faith until the end. I found that interesting. I think he continued to believe in God...and the teachings of the Church - but not many of the practices of the day - like selling indulgences for example. We're told in Chapter 70 that there is a very fine line between farce and reality. I take it there was a fine line between farce and truth at the performances staged as the castle.
Altisidora's death...the hellish trial with the Minos and Rhadamantus from the hell of antiquity - the costumes of the accused (the black conical hats - white in the real Inquisition scenes) were all a mockery of the Inquisition. The idea that Sancho was sentenced to being "touched" by dueñas in order to make up for the sin of Don Quixote ties right in to the selling of indulgences to liberate the souls from Purgatory. Cervantes got his licks in against the
Church, and got away with it!!!
So was that his sin? Leading on the amourous maiden? Failing to liberate Dulcinea? What is it that nags his conscience, keeps him up at night? He has unfinished business before he can quit the world and face his Maker with a clear conscience.
I'm talking to you all as if you don't know the ending! Is there any one here, besides me, who hasn't read the last two chapters?
Traudee - I'll agree with you on one issue, and disagree on another...is that fair?
I'll agree with Traudee, Judy that there is little difference between "lunatic" and "madman." You missed the term because Raffel translates to "lunatic" and I thought it fitting in light of the references to the moon. I was touched by the exchange between Tosilos and Sancho - when Sancho tells Tosilos that he's told Tosilos often enough that his master is mad - but what's the use, especially now, when he's "finished off" because the Knight of the White Moon defeated him. I take that as Sancho admitting there is no future for them - the end is near.
Traudee - I feel that reading various translations makes for a richer discussion. Think of the many times that differences came up and Amparo came in to let us know that BOTH were off the mark in direct translation of Cervantes' words! I don't think I'd ever recommend everyone read the exact same translation for this reason.
Speaking of Amparo...where is our guardian angel? When spreading the thanks, I think we owe much to our Amparo!
Off to read chapters 71 and 72 - see you all in the morning! Days left, just days, can you believe we've been meeting like this since April 1?!!!
marni0308
September 14, 2006 - 11:51 am
What an accomplishment ! Hurry up, JoanP! We have to give ourselves a cheer! YAY!!!
hats
September 14, 2006 - 11:58 am
I have been thinking about Amparo It's not an accomplishment without her.
hats
September 14, 2006 - 12:17 pm
JoanP and Maryal, when JoanP mentioned Cerevantes' love of the church, I began to think over and read over the different ways Don Q. describes his love for Dulcinea. From what I can understand, in his imaginings of Dulcinea, Don Q described her as pure, a virgin.
"In the course of their supper, Don Juan asked Don Quixote if he had news of Senora Dulcinea of Toboso: if she had married, or given birth, or was pregnant, or if she was still a virgin....To which he responded: "Dulcinea is a virgin, and...."
Is it possible that Cerevantes wanted the reader to think of the Virgin Mary, in some way, when thinking of Dulcinea? Or was Dulcinea just a pure, untouched damsel from the Chivalric romances?
hats
September 14, 2006 - 12:21 pm
Sorry, wrong message in wrong place.
judywolfs
September 14, 2006 - 12:53 pm
I think it's a richer discussion too, using different translations. But I wouldn't want to try it again without Ampero!
I guess DQs only sin was being defeated as a knight. I got almost sidetracked towards the end by the several times the length of sleeves was mentioned – and explained that it was the fashion to have shorter sleeves to make the hands look longer. Has this got something to do with “the long arm of the law” (or of the church)? It couldn’t possibly be just be a fashion observation, could it?
Hats, I had the idea early on that Dulcinia was being treated like a saint of the church, what with her knight actually praying to her and everything.
~JudyS
hats
September 14, 2006 - 01:08 pm
Judywolfs I hope Amparo is not sick.
judywolfs
September 14, 2006 - 01:40 pm
I hope nobody from this wonderful, long journey is sick. And, Hats, I don't think it's time to worry. Ampero posted here only a week ago. Many times more than a week goes by between posts of mine.
~JudyS
hats
September 14, 2006 - 01:58 pm
Judy, that's true.
1amparo
September 14, 2006 - 07:33 pm
I am well, thank you all for your concern. “Guardian Angels” (
) once their good deed has been done they retreat. Wishful thinking for me. Alas I am anything but. I had done just, as good old DQ would had done: came to the defense of Cervantes when some translators got Cervantes’ meaning “lost in translation”.
Amparo
marni0308
September 14, 2006 - 10:02 pm
I just watched a TV show about how the ancient Romans designed apartment houses (Latin assignment.) Guess what a Roman apartment house was called? An insula!
1amparo
September 15, 2006 - 02:38 am
Joan Pearson
September 15, 2006 - 06:22 am
Good morning, mis Comadres! I can see you from here - waiting impatiently at the end of the trail for my tired old mule donkey to join his compadres. Do old donkeys go to pasture as horses do?
Amparo - there you are! Never far - you have been with us throughout! How can we adequately thank you!!!
We are coming down to crunch time - time to face the big questions that we have been chewing over at our leisure along the trail. Shall we make a list of those questions we'd like considered during our remaining days together?
I'm smiling at the constant "insula" references, Marni! I hear you, Amparo! "Hear! Hear!" Is there a reason for this? Instigated by Cervantes himself? Did he mean to make us consider an island as insulated, surrounded by water - (which is specifically mentioned in the novel) as opposed to the "insula" as an isolated spot, even in the middle of a city?
"No man is an island." I'm thinking there may be a relationship between Don Quixote and the island mentality - and this may have been his undoing!
I've got to take poor pooch for a walk - will be back later this morning to consider some of the questions you brought up yesterday, but in the meantime, will you consider some of the questions in the heading - por favor? ~ There's are some basic question there - like * What specifically motivated Don Quixote set out on his mission in the first place? What do you see as Cervantes motivation to write this novel?
Do you agree with Sancho that Don Quixote has won his battle with himself?
Later!
marni0308
September 15, 2006 - 11:04 am
Do you agree with Sancho that Don Quixote has won his battle with himself?
I get the feeling that he just gave up. He lost his spirit. He told family and friends he was no longer Don Quixote de la Mancha, no longer the chivalric knight who would sally forth on his quests valiantly with his faithful squire. And he just faded away.
1amparo
September 15, 2006 - 07:19 pm
I think Cervantes meaning of “insula” has been vindicated by now. Enough said!
I have got Washington’s weather on my home web-page, watching it like a hawk I am, for anything below mid 70’s it is “freezing” to me… One month left!
Amparo
Traude S
September 15, 2006 - 07:55 pm
MARNI, exactly. DQ was worn out in body and soul, had no enegery left. The imitation of the shepherds and shepherdesses in the meadow was, I believe, a deep longing. He had barely gotten home before he fell ill, and what happened then is in the very last chapter.
We might take another look at the bachelor Carrasco and what his ultimate goal may have been.
JoanK
September 15, 2006 - 08:05 pm
It helps me to know that Cervantes died shortly after DQ was finished. I'm stretching, here, but I think it was Cervantes who wore out. Perhaps he had originally meant to carry the shepherd plot further. But he seems to have said "That's all I can do" and let DQ go.
I'm really putting my own experiences into this. My father was in the process of writing a book when he got cancer. He finished the book, and did some editing, but at one point he said to me "That's all I can do, I can't do any more". He died within weeks. I truly believe that finishing that book kept him alive for at least another year. And then he just let go. (The publishers finished the editing, and published the book).
hats
September 16, 2006 - 12:56 am
At least, Don Q lived out his impossible dream. At some point during the journey as a knight errant Don Q matured realizing there was more to life than what was written in the books read by him. I am contented knowing Don Q died at home: he had time to make his will, he had the chance to see how many people loved him and would miss him.
"The scribe happened to be present, and he said he had never read in any book of chivalry of a knight errant dying in his bed in so tranquil and Christian a manner as Don Quixote, who, surrounded by the sympathy and tears of those present...he died."
Without his adventures may be Don Q's life would have been shortened earlier. When we first met him, he needed a strong goal or purpose in his life. He made a choice and bravely set out to achieve his dream. At least for awhile he had a gung ho spirit.
Plus, Don Q went to sleep with another dream on his lips, "becoming a shepherd for the year and spending his time in the solitude of the countryside."
Perhaps, his dream came true. May be the hereafter is like a pastoral setting.
Joan Pearson
September 16, 2006 - 09:02 am
Good morning, mis comadres!
Amparo - enough said about Don Quixote? Do you conclude that "no man is an island" - that a man cannot exist in a secluded corner of the world - within himself - and still succeed in righting the wrongs and injustices of the world?
Sancho tells Tosilos that Don Quixote may have been defeated in the battlefield, but he has won the battle with himself.
Marni sees him putting away his armor, his shield, proclaiming he is no longer a knight. She sees him as "giving up." What was the battle within himself that Sancho sees him winning? Traudee sees him worn out, depleted of all energy...is that why he died or is that why he put away his armor?
I'm wondering what Sancho meant - what Cervantes meant - when he spoke of the battle within? JoanK - you see Cervantes worn out as well. That brings us back to his reason for writing this novel. Was he waging a battle? Did he win the battle within do you think?
Hats - "at least Don Q. lived out his impossible dream." Maybe that is the success story here. He saw injustice, he tried singlehandedly to overcome, battle after battle, wherever he saw a need. He had no ulterior motive, but just felt the need to do something, anything to make a difference.
Yes, Hats - he failed to survive out in the modern world. They laughed at his efforts! Perhaps Christianity, the Church is failing the modern world too. Don Quixote's world of knight errantry was full of evil magicians, beautiful maidens in distress, victorious knights breakin spells. He's finding this just doesn't happen in the modern world.
Why does Don Q. wish he had lived in the Golden Age - he expresses this wish when he considers the tapestries depicting Helen of Troy - It seems the book market had been flooded exclusively with the books of knight = errantry. Elsewhere in Europe, folks are reading of the Golden Age - an important development during the Renaissance. Surely Cervantes is aware of this.
It's not really surprising that Don Quixote wished a return to the Golden Age...the period that pre-dated the knights-errant - that pre=dated even the need for knights errant. Then women were strong - like Marcela. She ran off to emulate the goddesses. I can see DQ believing the pastoral life might be just the place to start again - to prepare himself to go back out into the Iron Age...the age of chivalry is dead!
But has he given up his desire to make the world a better place? Had he not become ill, would he have carried out his plan? He has already spent considerable money on sheep! (Not books!) Think of all that Manchego cheese he and his friends could have produced!
Do you think DQ died of an illness or did he die of a broken heart? Does anyone remember how Cervantes died?
I'm off to read the final two chapters - from your posts, I know our knight has died...but I want to pay very close attention to his final moments! It is so exciting to read your conclusions now!
Mippy
September 16, 2006 - 09:22 am
Just stopping in to say I've enjoyed all these recent posts.
Re: our speculation on why DQ died. Could it just be old age, and not a psychological explanation?
Recall that Cervantes was pretty early to be thinking of our modern psychological explanations for depression.
Maybe DQ was just worn out, and maybe Cervantes did feel death closing in.
I can't decide ... can you?
Deems
September 16, 2006 - 09:41 am
I join the others at the finish line having accomplished the final chapter last night. I knew how the story came out, that DQ returned to his home and found his housekeeper and niece waiting in addition to the priest and Carrasco. But I had forgotten how, at the very end, those who had tried to "cure" him to get him home, like the bachelor, tried to encourage him to hold on so that they could all go be shepherds together. When he is sane and knows that he is Alsonso the Good, they want him back as Don Quixote.
As for the idea of living out the Pastoral Romance, the housekeeper realisticallly says, "And there in the countryside will your grace be able to endure the heat of summer, the night air of winter, the howling of the wolves? No, certainly not; this is work for strong, hard men who've been brought up to the life almost from the time they're in swaddling clothes. No matter how bad it is, it's better to be a knight errant than a shepherd."
She continues with advice to Sancho to stay home and "tend to your estate, go to confession often, favor the poor, and let it be on my soul if that does you any harm."
At that point Don Quixote says, "Be quiet, my dears, for I know what I must do. Take me to my bed, because I think I am not well, and you can be certain that regardless of whether I am a knight errant or a shepherd on the verge of wandering, I shall always provide for you, as my actions will prove."
That sentence, at the end of LXXIII, sets up Don Quixote's will-making and his death. I find it unbearably sad, probably because of the "my dears" and the promise.
But all things must come to an end, good things as well as bad things. This reading together of a very long book I have never read in its entirety has been wonderful. Thank you all so much.
A special bouquet for Amparo who has been so invaluable on the Spanish and who loves this book.
~Maryal
1amparo
September 16, 2006 - 04:57 pm
"Amparo - enough said about Don Quixote? Do you conclude that "no man is an island" - that a man cannot exist in a secluded corner of the world - within himself - and still succeed in righting the wrongs and injustices of the world?"
That would indeed be "THE IMPOSSIBLE DREAM"
Amparo
PS. for those who do not remember Cervantes died of diabetes
Joan Pearson
September 17, 2006 - 11:03 am
Dear, dear comadres!
I think I've put off reading the last two chapters until now, not so much because I sensed the last days for the brave knight, but because I realized how accustomed I have become to sharing thoughts with you! Six months is a long time ...and I've enjoyed every day of it! Thank you, all! (little tears forming in the corners of my eyes as I write this - honest!)
We still some unanswered questions - your input will help shed light. Who said that you never really finish reading Don Quixote - you find new insights with every reading. Maybe it was Faulkner who used to read the novel once a year.
I can't help but think had Cervantes lived, we would still have more chapters to read - Do you think he was planning for our Don to find the cure among the sheep?
I agree with JoanK - "maybe Cervantes himself saw death closing in and knew he had to end with Don Q's death." By ending with Don Q's death he would be certain that there would be no further false adventures for Don Q. and Sancho.
So what caused Don Q.'s death?
Mippy asks - "Could it just be old age, and not a psychological explanation?" I dunno, he didn't seem to see it coming - "...life reached its end just when he least thought it might happen." It certainly could have been a medical condition related to his old age -
- internal damage from all those falls from his horse! or diabetes, even. (Thanks Amparo, I had forgotten that Cervantes died of diabetes complications!)
Maryal - Congratulations on crossing the finish line! And thank you for posting the lines from the scene in which Don Q. takes to his bed. I hadn't realized that he had told his niece and housekeeper to take him to his bed - that he knew what he must do, ...immediately following his conversation with his friends about planning for the coming year. Do you think he knew when he was speaking with them that he would not make it?
There was so much in this last chapter! Wasn't Cervantes clairvoyant when he wrote that Don Quixote would live through the ages? How did he know that! What is it about this novel that makes it timeless?
What did you think of Sancho's comment that everyone who ever met Don Quixote loved him? Was Sancho expressing his own feelings for his former master? Do you agree with him?
Joan Pearson
September 17, 2006 - 11:08 am
Before you leave for another trail, Will you share the pearls of wisdom or lessons learned that you will take home in your saddlebag from this adventure? Mine is bulging! Don't you feel such great pride and accomplishment? I do, but recognize that I wouldn't make made it without you! Don't you wonder how many of our generation have accomplished this? We carry the flame!
Your participation has made this such a rich experience, I will really miss our meetings around the campfire. I expect to wander around feeling lost for the next few days. Just want to be sure to
Thank you, mis comadres!
hats
September 17, 2006 - 11:51 am
I also have enjoyed the journey. Thank you to JoanP, Maryal, and Amparo and all of the other wonderful posters.
JoanK
September 17, 2006 - 11:59 am
This has been a wonderful experience, and I will sorely miss it. My little donkey is crying, and asking me if I'm never going to mount him again.
But I will meet you all again in future discussions. Including our wonderful leaders DEEMS and JOANP. I can't thank you two enough for your great leadership on the trail.
I hope those of us who are going to Arlington will be able to meet, and share some monchego cheese.
1amparo
September 17, 2006 - 05:56 pm
Congratulations to all of you!!
You have accomplished something not every Spaniard has done: to finish read Don Quijote. You have my admiration and of those who have helped me to help you, mainly;
Real Academia Española, Biblioteca Nacional, Ministerio de Cultura and Post Office officers.
See you soon.
Amparo
marni0308
September 17, 2006 - 09:19 pm
Although I felt sad about Don Quixote's death, I felt he was surrounded at the end by love. When the Don came home and said to his niece and housekeeper that he was not well, "....the good souls, for so they were without doubt, carried the knight to bed, where they presented him with food, and cherished him with all possible care."
"...Don Quixote had no particular privilege from heaven, exempting him from the common fate, the end and period of his existence arrived, when he least expected its approach; and either in consequence of the melancholy produced by his defeat, or by the particular dispensations of heaven, he was seized with a fever, which detained him in bed for the space of six days, during which he was often visited by his friends, the curate, bachelor and barber; and his good squire Sancho Panza never stirred from his bed-side."
His friends and family comforted him and wept over him until the end. He did not seem to feel any pain. He completed his final arrangements and received all the sacraments. The Don accepted that books of chivalry were an abomination. He slept more and more, then had a series of fainting spells, and finally he passed away quietly.
---------------------------
Thank you, everyone, for making this adventure so enjoyable. Thank you so very much, JoanP and Maryal, for all of your hard work helping us to glean so much more from this great work of literature.
Marni
Mippy
September 18, 2006 - 07:01 am
Thanks to our fearless DLs, JoanP and Maryal, for leading us on this long and very worthwhile journey.
Another special thanks to Amparo, amica mea! See you next month!
Now when we see references to DQ in the newspapers, we'll know if the reporter did his homework,
or if he only read as far as the windmills or didn't read it at all!
I love long books, but DQ has been a stretch! Only with the help of this caring and erudite group
could I have finish the whole book!
judywolfs
September 18, 2006 - 08:03 am
There's very much I still don't "get" about this book. I still have a lot to think about concerning it. I honestly didn't appreciate a lot of the humor, finding it too crass or maybe too blatent for my taste. And I'm sure so much of the less blatent humor went over my head, particularly the word play, which may have been rendered somewhat meaningless by translation. Also, I'll be happy if I never again read a story about the cruely of a beautiful woman's scorn driving a man insane before killing him. I'm sure that sometimes I missed the value of certain passages or the depth of ideas due to struggling with the sheer volume of the book.
But put those comments aside for a bit -
I learned a lot during this discussion, particularly about church history, Spain's culture, the way of life during Cervantes's time, and (most important of all) how fun, interesting, challenging and wonderfully worthwile these Senior Net book discussions are! Happy trails to all, and thanks for letting me tag along!
~JudyS
Joan Pearson
September 18, 2006 - 08:47 am
Mis Comadres -
This is the saddest parting in memory. We've really been through something together, haven't we? Really, thank YOU all for everything you've brought to our table! I'm not just talking about the Manchego cheese, the wine, the Dulcinea watermelon either! You know how rich this discussion has been - it's because of all your deep thinking and research that we were able to stay with it day after day! We couldn't have done this alone - and we didn't!
So have another glass of Manzanilla and some more tissues as we gather for the wake for our beloved knight. (Though I'm not certain that "everyone who met our Don Quixote loved him," as Sancho stated. I think you had to spend time with him, as we did.) As Marni says, he had a peaceful death, surrounded by loving family and friends. He died with a clear conscience, having renounced the abominable books, asking for and receiving absolution. The only one missing at his bedside was Dulcinea. But I think her memory has gone with the books of chivalry. He has a new Lady now.
Judy - if you learned a lot, and had fun - what more could you ask on such an adventure? I'm sure Sancho felt the same way. There are scholars who spend their whole lives trying to "get" much about the book - don't feel you were alone. Maybe that was the key to our "success" - we were never alone on the trail - not once, never once since April 1! Now that's quite an accomplishment!
Traude S
September 18, 2006 - 03:33 pm
JOAN P, DEEMS and everyone, I'm always saddened when I have to part from a book and the group that gathered to discuss it. That's true especially here, where we have been together every day for six months.
Some questions about DQ, the man and the book, have not been answered; some are, in fact, unanswerable, as scores of historians have discovered over the centuries. Some tentative conclusions can be gleaned from Cervantes' summing up at the end of chapter 74,
"For me alone was Don Quixote born, and I for him; he knew how to act; and I to write ...",
but this is the end of the road for us; now we are left with powerful impressions and memories.
Used as we are to 21st century conveniences like planes, fast trains, instant communication (instant anything), and luxury on demand (if we can afford it), we marvel at the quaintness and utter simplicity of people and "things" centuries ago.
But from what we have seen in Cervantes' masterwork, human nature, human behavior, human traits were very much the same, then as now: love, jealousy, hate; cowardice, bravery, valor,
compassion, trickery and deceit.
Nothing really changes, just the circumstances, it has been said.
Now I'd like to put in a good word for translators, because I am one and know what the work requires - namely, first, perfect
knowledge of the language of the original text, AND of the language into which the foreign text is to be translated. A general understanding of the subject matter/topis of the original work is another prerequisite.
Second, the translator needs to be faithful to the letter, as long as total fidelity to the text is practicable. That is not an easy task - especially in a work of the density of DQ, which is brimming over with colloquialisms, unique folklore, literary references, and linguistic word plays that suffer in translation.
We were fortunate to have AMPARO with us. She was reading the Spanish text as we labored over differet interpretations. She deserves a huge GRACIAS.
Many thanks to JOAN P, DEEMS, and all who posted here. The sorrow of parting is alleviated only by the certain knwledge that we'll meet here again - soon.
Vale.
1amparo
September 18, 2006 - 05:47 pm
"the translator needs to be faithful to the letter, as long as total fidelity to the text is practicable."
Before two attacks of meningitis in the last 20 years I used to be translator for the government: the quote above is music to my ears.
Thanks mate! Gracias amiga!
Amparo
Joan Pearson
September 19, 2006 - 04:35 am
There she is! Wonderfully put, Traudee! Like you, I'm still lingering over unanswered questions, wishing we had more time to ponder them - after 6 months! Chapter 74 is a trove of "tentative conclusions" - as you put it, but clearly we need to get back to our own family and friends after having been away this long!
Do you get the impression that Cervantes was writing fast and furiously at the end, summing up what he knew were questions still unanswered? I think I will be rereading chapter 74 several times before making a place for Don Quixote on my book shelf. I will surely miss sharing with mis comadres though. Don't you feel we've been away together for a long, long time? I'm unable to say "Vale" as I watch your backs disappearing on the trail.
Amparin - one more request? How does one say "au revoir" in Spanish? It's not quite as final as good-bye...gratias amiga!
JoanK
September 19, 2006 - 03:35 pm
PATH just called me from Paris. She's having a great time, but really misses being here at the end. She has been working hard boning up her French for the Paris trip, and is afraid all of her Spanish has flown out of her head. She wanted me to say "au revoir" to all of you -- see some of you in October.
Who amoung us DQs will be there in Arlington?
JoanK
September 19, 2006 - 03:49 pm
If Cervantes purpose was really to debunk the tales of chivalry once and for all, he perhaps achieved the opposite. The lesson most seem to take from DQ is that his notion of chivalry was much better than the reality that existed around him.
There is something about the medieval period that seems to endlessly capture the imagination, as the current popularity of "Harry Potter", Star Wars, Tokien, and endless Sci Fi stories which, while purporting to show the future, are actually medieval (pardon me, historians, if I'm using that term wrongly).
1amparo
September 19, 2006 - 05:42 pm
au revoir: HASTA SIEMPRE! (the exact translation might not make sense to some but it is said when good-bye is too hard to contemplate.)
To JoanP and others I shall see in few weeks: Hasta pronto! = see you soon.
XOXO To all.
Amparo
hats
September 20, 2006 - 05:52 am
JoanP, you talked about seeing so much in chapter 74. Is it too late to discuss more of the chapter? I do hate to let Don Quixote go too. It is hard to express my feelings because I have enjoyed the whole six months so much. I have been teary eyed also. I have my book close by. Don Quixote and Sancho Panza seem so "real." These characters are not easily forgotten.
Joan Pearson
September 20, 2006 - 08:46 am
HASTA SIEMPRE! Perfect! Gratias, Amparin! So much more bearable than Cervantes' final "Vale." He knew his own end was coming, didn't he? Does Don Quixote appear to be at peace, or is he struggling to get his message across? He expresses concern that he will be remembered as a madman. (Was he?)
And "hasta pronto" to those coming to Arlington next month. We'll need to examine our schedules to learn which day (s) each will be in town and get some firm plans made. For those unable to make the trip, we promise virtual sharing...photos and messages. You are all such dear comadres!
We promise to keep the doors open here until all have been heard, Hats - am truly sorry if that is prolonging the sadness of farewell.
"If Cervantes purpose was really to debunk the tales of chivalry once and for all, he perhaps achieved the opposite." JoanK- First of all, do you believe that Cervantes had other reasons for writing Don Quixote? He tells us that this was his only reason - so do you think he failed? A two-part question...
If Cervantes felt he failed and he died shortly before the completed novel was published, his might have been an unhappy death - and yet he appears to have been at peace, as was Don Quixote - this is from the prologue of his last work, Persiles and Sigismundo, published posthumously - "my life's race is slowing at the rate of my pulse and by this Sunday at the latest it will complete its course and with it my life." (Cervantes actually died not on that Sunday, but on Saturday, April 23, 1616.)
..."Goodbye, humor; goodbye, wit; goodbye merry friends, for I am dying and hope to see you soon, happy in the life to come."
We should all go out as pleased with our life's accomplishments! We can look into the final chapter of Don Quixote to see how the knight drifted from the deep sadness and depression that was consuming him, to his peaceful end - within the space of a long nap. (Have you noticed that whenever things get to be too much for the Don, he takes a nap?) What happened during those six hours that accounted for the change in him?
JoanK
September 20, 2006 - 11:44 am
PATH and I will be in the Arlington Hilton Thursday and Friday, lea