Dupin Tales, The ~ Edgar Allen Poe ~ 9/06 Export

Welcome to Poe territory! We are anticipating quite a discussion of Matthew Pearl's newly released The Poe Shadow in September. From the reviews it seems that Matthew has captured the Poe style in his fictional detective, Quentin Clark. If you haven't heard this already, Matthew plans to participate in the discussion.

We plan to read three of Poe's mysteries here at the same time we read and discuss Matthew's book. Our own mystery man, Bill H. will host this discussion in the fall.

The three stories are short ones. Did you know Poe never wrote a novel - although he claims that he wrote a novel in two parts? If this is so, it hasn't ever been found.

The three mysteries we will discuss here are:

"The Murders in the Rue Morgue,"

"The Mystery of Marie Roget"

"The Purloined Letter."

Matthew Pearl has also edited a collection of these three stories, entitled, Mysteries of the Rue Morgue: Dupin Tales.

If you have other collections of these three stories, or plan to check out a library copy, that's fine. We'll be sharing information from the lengthy introduction and other materials Matthew has included in the new edition.

Oh, and the stories are all available on-line if you don't have all of them - Poe mysteries online.

To plan this discussion of Poe's stories, we'll need a quorum to proceed. We would love to have you join us! Please post here if you are interested.br>
If you haven't checked out the discussion of Matthew Pearl's The Poe Shadow, please click this link and get in on the excitement!

I'm in!

Cathie

Et moi!

Joan, What is the meaning of "Dupin"?

I am here. I don't have my book yet.

hahaha, Hats! You don't NEED the book until September! Good to know that you will be joining this discussion. You too Jackie (Mrs. Sherlock) and Cathy!

"Dupin" is the name of Poe's fictional amateur detective. Conan Doyle has admitted that his Sherlock Holmes character was directly inspired by C. August Dupin.

Maybe you are asking the meaning of the French word, "dupin." I believe it is just the name, though there is the verb, "duper" - to dupe, deceive. Let's watch and see if this describes the detective.

Thanks Joan, Figured it was a French name. I have printed out the one story I was lacking- Marie Roget. Just fyi- it's 25 printed pages.

I'm already excited about this and it's only June. I need to get a life. LOL

I'm ready to play.

Kleo

I would like to join. It has been so long since I read Poe that I will have to read these stories again. I look forward to Mr. Pearl's book.

GSPoppy! Welcome! Oh, and please go on upstairs and sign on for the discussion of Matthew Pearl's The Poe Shadow (click this link). We're keeping a list so we can inform you of any developments between now and September.

Kleo, keep that bench warm until the fall. This is going to be a fun game! I'm looking for a good Poe biography. Any ideas?

Golly, Scootz, I'm sorry you had to print out so many pages! (Send me the bill!

) At least you have it now and are ready to play.

Sign me up!

Marni

Oh, I would love to read a good Poe biography. I wouldn't know which one to pick. I bet a lot of books have been written about him. I am to be here.

Joan,

Are you only just half way through DQ? Yoiks!

I blieve the Dupin mysteries are in sequence so I need to listen to Rue Morgue before reading this printed one. It's tempting me though lying there, drawing me to it!

No problem on the print out- but since you offered, the bill's in the mail!

JK. I'm certainly not about to read it off a monitor !

I'm intrigued that your font color matches the header. I notice that because it's the sort of thing I'd do. (Don't tell anyone but I match my bookmarks to the book I'm reading. Shhhh, mum's the word!)

Oh, that's a cute idea! I miss do that with my bookmarks.

Count me in. I am reading a detective story just now that uses Poe and his lady admirers ( Mostly poets) as its theme. When I remember to bring it up to the main computer will give you the name and author. Since it takes place in a college, she also mentions a lot of books written about Poe, so will extract them as well.

I'm in, though I don't know how active I'll be.

SCOOTZ: I love your Yogi berra sayings!

I have confirmed that my "Complete Works of Edgar Allen Poe" does contain the 'Rue Morgue' stories, and I will plan to join you.

(Well, I picked up a "Complete..." something or other once, and it wasn't really everything the author had written. So my checking wasn't really quite as dumb as it sounds!)

Babi

Babi, you are ahead of the game. Should I say you are ahead of the murders???

Good, welcome Marni, Stephanie, JoanK - we'll take you, any way we can get you! Bill will be happy with the group assembling here!

But who can resist reading POE and discussing him???I have a great books collection and must see if I have one of Poe. He must be there.

In any case I will join yuo come September ...anna

Welcome, Annafair! I'd be interested to know whether Poe's Dupin mysteries are included in your collection. Even if not, you will probably find them in your library, or inexpensively at Barnes & Noble or Amazon...

Joan, I can't find words enough to express my thanks and gratitude for pinch hitting for me while I was busy elsewhere.

However, from the fine group you have already assembled, it seems as though my absence was well rewarded. Perhaps I should remain The Mystery Man. Well, I see a lot of my old friends have gathered around to unravel these mysteries.

I would also like to extend my own welcome to:

Cathie, MrsSherlock, Hats, KleoP, Golden State Poppy, Marni, Stephanie, JoanK, Babi, Anna. Good Lord I hope I haven't missed any names or I'll really be trouble.

I see we not only have an exceptional assemblage, but also a practiced gathering of participants who have joined the discussion. I'm sure they are going to more than help Detective Dupin solving the crimes.

Joan Pearson, allow me once again to express my thanks and gratitude for helping me.

Bill H

Some folks have expressed the desire to read a Poe biography. well I found a few for your consideration.

The first link also contains some of his works that you can read on line.

http://www.online-literature.com/poe/

http://www.poemuseum.org/poes_life/index.html

http://bau2.uibk.ac.at/sg/poe/Bio.html

They all contain clickables you can use for more information.

I like all three.

Bill H

As Joan Pearson posted over in "The Poe Shadow," this is not to be regarded as "pre-discussion." Just a sign up sheet. I did post the Poe bio links for your reading pleasure.

To pre discuss a detective mystery would spoil the reading of the novella for others.

I wish you all a happy and safe Fourth of July.

Bill H

I will be participating too.

Just a note---I tried to buy a copy of the book shown in the discussion header at my local Barnes and Noble, but it was not in stock. Not a problem for me as I generally order books on-line anyway, but it may mean some extra lead time in procuring your book for this discussion.

Until September...

LauraD,

Thank you for signing up. We have some great folks signed on.

I bought a copy of Poe's complete tales at Borders Book store.

Bill H

I just ordered a book of Poe's complete works from used books at Amazon. It hasn't arrived yet, but I am sure will soon, since I have always had good luck ordering used books from them.

Laura, the new edition of the Dupin Mysteries described in the heading was edited by Matthew Pearl, the author of The Poe Shadow. Since this collection was just released in late May, each book store only ordered a few copies, not realizing perhaps that The Poe Shadow would generate renewed interest in Poe's stories.

For those who are reading the stories in other collections, I can make sure to post Matthew's comments from his introduction to the Rue Morgue Mysteries.

Thanks for the bio links, Bill. I'm having fun reading them!

I subscribe to the Poe Forum on Matthew Pearl's website. Someone suggested these titles - will check them out at my library and let you know if any provide any more insight than the links Bill has provided here

"Ihave read a few biogragraphies, and there are two that I enjoyed. They are:

Israfel : The Life and Times of Edgar Allan Poe by Hervey Allen

Edgar A Poe : Mournful and Never-ending Remembrance by Kenneth Silverman

This is a really good one as well:

Edgar Allan Poe : A Critical Biography by Arthur Hobson Quinn and Shawn Rosenheim

All of these are still in print and available at a reasonable cost on Amazon.com

Folks, the discussion schedule has been posted in the heading for Poe's three Detective Dupin mysteries.

As you can see, I have separated each of the novellas into two halves. This, hopefully, may prevent the readers from posting too far ahead and spoiling the solving of the mysteries for those who may be planning their reading agenda and posting their thoughts according to the discussion schedule.

In my Borders Bookstore Classic edition of Poe's "The Murders in the Rue Morgue," The first half ends with this first sentence in the last paragraph.

"The 'Gazette,'" he replied, "has not entered, I fear, into the unusual horror of the thing. "

The second half begins with this sentence.

"I stared at the speaker in mute astonishment."

Even though you may have an addition different from mine, I hope the "road marks" I have posted will be sufficient to guide you in following the discussion schedule.

I will also post "road marks" for the two remaining Detective Dupin mysteries. However, I'm a little reluctant to post them now because I don't wish to confuse any of the readers.

Bill H

Pat, thank you for doing such a fine job in posting the schedule.

Bill H

Count me in I'd love to discuss these stories with you all.

Scrawler, happy you are joining in

Bill H

I'm in, if I didn't mention it before now.

MrsSherlock, glad you are with us.

Bill H

I opened my copy of The Murders of the Rue Morgue this morning. I've got the new trilogy edited by Matthew Pearl. He's written a fine introduction which I'll quote here from time to time. Matthew Pearl has spent the last threeyears researching the author and analyzing his detective novels. I think he might shine a light on Poe and these stories.

C. Auguste Dupin is Poe's detective in the three Murders of the Rue Morgue trilogy. According to Matthew's introduction to these three stories, Dupin was a strange character for Poe's readers to understand...no detective prototypes to which to compare him. Poe's Dupin was the original Sherlock Holmes and the detectives that followed. "Incompetent police, locked rooms where murders occur, an eccentric genius investigator...a naive narrator." These were Poe's inventions.

Poe's readers frequently compared Dupin's investigations to those of a criminal lawyer. A young lawyer! Matthew Pearl quotes from The Pennsylvania Inquirer that "some experienced criminal lawyer must have established the chain of evidence."

Poe's first story featuring Dupin was written when Poe was 32. His contemporaries often blurred Poe and his Dupin character - especially his analytical mind when solving problems.
I hope you're not put off with Poe's description of the analytical approach to problem solving. It doesn't last long, and it IS important to understanding C. Auguste Dupin.

Glad you posted this. It is a reminder to me to reread the first part of "Murders in the Rue Morgue". I ordered the complete works of Poe from a second-hand dealer through Amazon.com. The book promptly fell apart, but it won't be a problem to read the parts I want. It may inspire me to read some of Poe's other works as well. I loved them when I was young.

Joan Pearson

So happy you received the book and will join the discussion.

Your posts are always add another dimension to any discussion.

Bill H

I found all three of the stories online at www.online-literature.com. I downloaded 'The Murders in the Ruse Morgue' (15 pages). I can mark that up without guilt.

Juanita Millican

Juanita, good for you.

By the way, To help those of you who are reading The Murders in the Rue Morgue on line. This will serve as a road guide for the discussion schedule found in the heading.

The first half ends with the first sentence in the last paragraph.

"The 'Gazette,'" he replied, "has not entered, I fear, into the unusual horror of the thing. "

The second half of this story begins with this sentence.

"I stared at the speaker in mute astonishment."

Bill H

Let me clarify the above message.

The last paragraph in the first half of the story begins with

"The 'Gazette,'" he replied, "has not entered, I fear, into the unusual horror of the thing. "

Bill H

Having read "Murders in the Rue Morgue" before, I'm simply scanning and skipping this time around. Ready when you are, BILL.

Babi

Babi, you're not going to reread? I just did a summer class rereading a couple of books, and it was a lot of fun. I reread Poe's various short stories as often as possible.

Kleo

Watch for the opening September 1st. Bill will be here to welcome you.

Hello, and welcome to Edgar Allan Poe's The Murders in the Rue Morgue discussion.

I did lead a discussion of this same novella a few years ago and it had a very fine turnout. I see some of those same folks joined in again for a repeat performance. Thank you for that.

I must caution you not to try and follow this discussion from any of the movies you may have seen. I tried locating some of the movie adaptations and most of the viewers were disappointed that the movie script did not follow Poe's novella. I viewed some of them myself and I couldn't believe the departure from Poe's tale.

The first time I read the story, I found the ending to be quite a surprise. For those of you who are reading The Murders in the Rue Morgue for the first time, I'm sure the ending will be something unexpected. For that reason, and for the consideration of first time readers, I'm sure all of us would appreciate the participants adhering to the schedule in the heading.

So let's have some fun discussing Poe's tale of The Murders in the Rue Morgue.

Thank you for joining the discussion.

Bill H

This story seems like an older version of the CSI TV shows. There is a long list of clues from physical evidence and witness testimony. Evidently Dupin will take these clues and use them to solve the case. He didn't have access to modern tools like DNA analysis, fingerprint databases and such. So he will need to rely on rational and logical analysis of those clues. Of course Poe has provided the proper clues so that Dupin has what he needs and everything will make sense in the end. Not so with reallife crimes where you get what you get.

Anterlady, thank you for the first post in the discussion. I'll be making a follow up post on the early days of crime deduction compared modern day techniques.

Bill H

"The readership of this literature [detective and crime stories] cuts across definition by class or income group. Politicians and statesmen in particular have found it easy to relax (the compliment is a dubious one) while reading crime literature. Abraham Lincoln admired Poe's work in 1860 and Joseph Stalin enjoyed it as well. Woodrow Wilson is said to have 'discovered' the books of J. S. Fletcher, the Yorkshire detective story writer. Lord Rosebery was proud to posses a first edition of "the Memoirs of Sherlock Holmes" and John F. Kennedy is supposed to have preferred Ian Fleming to any other writer and Freud liked the books of Dorothy L. Sayers." ~ "Bloody Murder"

So as you can see we are in the company of some very interesting readers.

I admire highly Monsieur C. Auguste Dupin's ability to observe silently. Perhaps, this is one of Monsieur Dupin's talents Abraham Lincoln and the other well known men admired. Surely, it must take a quiet, patient, watchful eye to discover what lies behind the crime.

Oh yes, Hats, quiet observation is essential. He says:"to observe attentively is to remember distinctly." Also, knowing WHAT to watch for. Right now, he seems to be saying, WATCH everything.

I was interested in the discussion in the early pages of the story - thought they were slow going and had to reread several times, but I think they are essential to understand Dupin's method. He seemed to be saying it's not enough to observe, to remember, but a skillful analyst has to go beyond what he sees. He has to make inferences - but that valid inference depends on the observation.

He compares the chess player to the draughts player. (What are draughts? checkers maybe?) One can play draughts by the book, but for chess you need something else...intuition I think he said. You need to think outside the box, beyond the rules that describe the moves of each piece. I admire those who think outside the box. This should be fun!

Scrawler, an interesting question - "Who reads crime stories?" Maybe those who like to do puzzles? Do you do SUDOKU? Crosswords, QuoteAcrostics? Solve riddles?

Oh my! I certainly like to do puzzles --sudoku most recently but many others also. And I love forensics and codes and treasure hunts and I don't know what all. So I guess this type of story is great for me. I read not only to find out what happens but also to see if I can figure it out before the author gives us the answer.

Better than chess, tho', JOAN, was Whist. Dupin thought Whist a better exercise for developting 'ratiocination' than chess. Isn't Whist a card game similar to Bridge? I play Bridge, and I can see what he means. One needs to play close attention to what is played, what is discarded, and by whom. Does your opponent hesitate over a choice of cards? Is he/she known to bluff? It is not only the facts of the cards played that matters, but also your observations and instincts re. the other players.

On the famous scene in "Murders in the Rue Morgue", where Dupin follows his companions line of thought, it occurred to me that other explanations were equally possible. It is well that there were clues along the way, in words and actions, to 'confirm' Dupin's assumptions. Otherwise, I would have been thinking.."Not necessarily!" And of course, Msr. Dupin must be correct if Poe is to establish his hero's unique genius.

Babi

Joanp your right "draughts" are also known as American checkers though there seems to be a lot of modern changes to the game. It is one of the oldest games know according to a google search.

I have been reading mysteries all summer and they have been the modern ones with alot of fornesic science in them. So I got a Faye Kellerman book about a serial murder in 1920's Munich. There I see much of what I remember of Dupin and his methods of deduction being used by the "Chief Inspector". I must go get a copy of the Dupin Tales to reread..I have been searching for something interesting to do now that I am feeling better. Faith

People who do crossword puzzles etc .. well I do all things mentioned ..and mysteries have always been the books I relaxed with ..they took me away from my own problems and immersed me in the story....and they still do that ..will read today and see what others are SEEING and reading ..anna

I copied the on line version onto a CD just checked where the second part we are to read begins ..now all I need to do is read the first part ..later today. Ernesto kept my computer OFF as it bombarded us with thunderstorm and torrential rain. I am on higher ground so there was no problem but had a LOT of broken tree branches in my yard which thanks to a kind neighbor are at the curb for pickup..There is still a lot of smaller branches I need to take to the curb and I havent even checked the back yard...Will return later.. just wanted to let everyone know you can burn all of this on a CD and it was really easy ..if I CAN FIGURE IT OUT ANYONE CAN..anna

Can you believe I found myself laughing while reading the first part of this story?!?

I laughed every time a witness claimed to know what language was spoken during the crime --- Spanish, Italian, German --- yet at the end of their testimony, it was always noted that the witness had never even heard that particular language which he/she claimed to have heard spoken during the crime!

Laura, yes I can believe you find yourself laughing as you read this story. Poe was keen on the foibles of human nature and exploited his knowledge in his fiction. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable, not a subject of 19th century detective novels, by any means. There is an interesting book on the topic by a University of Washington researcher, Elizabeth Loftus, called Eyewitness Testimony.

From Barnes and Noble:

"In Eyewitness Testimony, Elizabeth Loftus makes the psychological case against the eyewitness. Beginning with the basics of eyewitness fallibility, such as poor viewing conditions, brief exposure, and stress, Loftus moves to more subtle factors, such as expectations, biases, and personal stereotypes, all of which can intervene to create erroneous reports. Loftus also shows that eyewitness memory is chronically inaccurate in surprising ways. An ingenious series of experiments reveals that memory can be radically altered by the way an eyewitness is questioned after the fact. New memories can be implanted and old ones unconsciously altered under interrogation.

I laughed in this part, also, how each person is so sure it's a specific language they don't know. However, I would say Europeans have more sophisticated ears for languages than Americans.

Kleo

"The mental features discoursed of as the analytical, are, in themselves, but little susceptible of analysis. We appreciate them only in their effects. We know of them, among other things, that they are always to their possessor, when inordinately possessed, a source of the liveliest enjoyment. As the strong man exults in his physical ability, delighting in such exercises as call his muscles into action, so glories the analyst in that moral activity which disentangles. He derives pleasure from even the most trivial occupations bringing his talent into play. He is fond of enigmas, of conundrums, hieroglyphics; exhibiting in his solutions of each a degree of acumen which appears to the ordinary apprehension praeternatural. His results, brought about by the very soul and essence of method, have, in truth, the whole air of intuition."

After I read the opening paragraph of the story, I felt this was all right for fiction and the private eyes, thereof. Fictional detectives could form conclusions from their analysis and solve the mystery.

However, before modern day forensic tests and techniques were used to help establish guilt or innocence, I couldn't help but feel that many innocent persons were convicted of a crime they didn't commit by law enforcement agencies using these same analytical procedures. But even with today's modern crime detection tools, we still read and hear about individuals spending many years in prison for a crime they did not commit t.

But I do enjoy reading these crime solving features employed by Dupin and Holmes.

If you care to read the story on line, use the link below.

The Murders in the Rue Morgue

Bill H

"You need to think outside the box, beyond the rules that describe the moves of each piece."

Oh yes, Joan, in chess, you need to think outside the box.

Bill H

"The idea that detective fiction could not be written until organized detective forces existed is logically persuasive but not literally true, for the first detective stories were written by Edgar Allan Poe before a Detective Office had been established at Scotland Yard, and a time when few American cities had any kind of police system.

It is a tribute to Poe's inventive genius that his stories had so little to do with actual police operations. He had read Vidocq, and it is right to say that if the "Memories" had never been published Poe would not have created his amateur detective, but one should immediately add that Poe owed to Vidocq only the inspiration that set light to his imagination.

Almost every later variation of plot in the detective story can be found in the five short stories he wrote which, with a little stretching here and there, can be said to fit within the limits of the form. He is the undisputed father of the detective story, although he would have been disconcerted by many of his children and grandchildren." ~ "Bloody Murder"

"Eugene Francois Vidocq was a French criminal who later became the first director of Surete Nationale and one of the first modern private investigators.

Vidocq suggested the formation of a plainclothes unit Brigade de Surete (Brigade of Security) that later became Surete Nationale. He had up to 12 detectives, many of them ex-criminals like himself, working for him. In 1817 he had a hand in 811 arrests, including 15 assassins and 38 fences. His annual income was 5,000 francs but he also worked as a private investigator for a fee.

The first books he intended to publish were his memoirs. In 1828-29 Vidocq had procured services of L.F. L'Heritier de l'Ain to ghostwrite his memoirs. However, many historians consider that L'Heriter took lots of liberties with the facts.

Vidocq is credited with having introduced record-keeping, criminology and ballistics to criminal investigation. He made the first plaster casts of shoe impressions. He created indelible ink and unalterable bond paper with his printing company. His form of anthropometics is still partially used by French police. He also is credited for philanthropic pursuits - he claimed he never informed on anyone who had stolen for real need.

Vidocq was Emile Gaboriau's inspiration for his detective Monsieur Lecoq one of the first scientific and methodical detectives."

Now I can see why Poe placed his stories in Paris. I always wondered why they were not placed here in America, but I can see that since Poe gained his inspiration from Vidocq that it was only fitting that Paris be the location of his stories.

It is interesting that Poe got his inspiration from a book written where the facts where "stretched." Certainly the analytical part of Vidocq's methods can be seen in Poe's detective stories.

But at the same time we can also see Poe's ability for suspense and terror intertwined with the "modern" methods of police work.

"He compares the chess player to the draughts player. (What are draughts? checkers maybe?) One can play draughts by the book, but for chess you need something else...intuition I think he said. You need to think outside the box, beyond the rules that describe the moves of each piece. I admire those who think outside the box. This should be fun!" Joan

Poe said the opposite. Chess is the purely analytical game, while checkers is a game of strategy where winning goes strictly to the player of "greater acumen." Checkers requires out of the box thinking. Of course there is strategy in playing chess, also, but at a certain level, it's all about your ability to analyze many complex moves and all the possibilities, not about your brilliant out-thinking of the other player, but about your out-moving and out-analyzing the possible moves. This is a major debate, though, whether chess requires anything outside of analytical skills. This is why computers challenge humans to chess games--the question of the ages Poe raises.

"In [chess], where the pieces have different and bizarre motions, with various and variable values, that which is only complex is mistaken (a not unusual error) for that which is profound." Poe

He continues to talk about a reduced game of checkers of "four kings .... It is obvious that victory can be decided (the players being at all equal) only by some recherché movement, the result of some strong exertion of the intellect."

Games like checkers and go can be much more difficult than chess. And I have to agree with Poe after watching my sister womp a grandmaster in chess with only a year of playing under her belt. She simply has a brilliantly analytical mind.

Kleo

Anna, thank you of the heads up about copying to a CD. Sorry to hear about the trouble Ernesto caused you.

Scrawler and Kleo, thank you for those remarkable posts.

And, Kleo, I do believe an analytical mind is of great value in all walks of life. We can apply the analytical mind to the field of medicine and all it entails, from pharmaceutical research to the general practitioner and the success it brings.

Bill H

Yes, Bill, most disciplines require multiple types of thinking skills. I'm not sure what you were addressing this remark to, though.

Kleo

Oh dear, the exact opposite, Kleo! To have a retentive memory and proceed by the book makes you a good chessplayer, but it takes a truly analytical mind to play draughts? It's good that we are all here to "ratiocinate" together! At least I guessed that draughts were checkers, Fae. (I am so happy to hear you are feeling better!) I'll stick to whist in the future to develop ratiocinative skills. (

no, just kidding...I've never played - cannot brag about my great analytical skills, though I do have a vivid imagination and a fairly good memory.)

I am getting a kick out of Dupin's arrogance, I guess you'd call it. Or is it confidence in his own abilities? He is likened to a criminal lawyer in this story. I wonder where Poe picked up his knowledge of the law. Am interested to learn whether the character Dupin was modelled after anyone in particular.

I assume the narrator is Poe himself? Do you? They seem an unlikely pair, walking nightly, arm and arm through the streets of Paris. Dupin seems so detached, and yet they have turned into "buddies". They share a love of books, they are both alone in Monmartre. (Matthew Pearl says there is no evidence that Poe ever visited Paris.)

Is this the first story to which Poe attaches the ratiocinate approach? Those who are well read in Poe might remember this in other stories. Is this term original with Poe?

Encarta says it's a 17th century word, Joan. I don't think the narrator is necessarily Poe himself.

Chess is an interesting game, Joan. And this issue that Poe raises still plagues humans, is it merely keen analytical skills that makes a good chess player? If this is true, then one should be able to design a computer program to beat any chess player in the world, eh? The first definitive loss by a prepared grandmaster to a machine was Kasparov in his second Deep Blue series. It made quite a splash in the news, although not as deep a splash as his win the prior year. There have been more recent matches, with better computers coming out clear winners, although there are some questions about fairness and the preparedness level of the grandmasters compared to Kasparov. There are some ways, also, to beat a computer or force a draw or so programmers and players theorize endlessly in discussions about the topic--it was shown that one recent major middlegame loss to a computer could have been a draw, and an extremely clever one at that.

I had to look up Kasparov's name in Wikipedia--shame I couldn't remember. I did remember the computer's name, Deep Blue, but it didn't list it at oneword. Go to Wikipedia computer chess for some more on what I've mentioned.

Chess is an interesting game, but it is a game that requires a specific and very finite type of thinking skill. I was very surprised that my sister could not just beat but thoroughly trounce a ranked grandmaster after playing for just a year, maybe less, and never having played someone of that level. She was rather sure of herself, too, arrogant you might say. Her evaluation of the situation was accurate though.

As to Dupin's arrogance. If one has moderate skills and is confident of them, one is a realist. If one has superior skills and is confident of them, one is arrogant. Society does not, except in rare cases, allow mental acumen of a high degree. Great athletes are worshipped, great businessmen earn tons of money (although great businesswomen go to jail), but great intellects are relegated to the societal fringes, for if they dare make themselves known they are arrogant, condescending, putting on airs, superior, and everything wrong there could be in a human being.

Dupin was smart to know his place was in the night.

Kleo

I believe some people in this discussion and the Poe shadow discussion have said that they haven't read or re-read the material before the discussion. I feel that whenever I re-read a book or story I see different things in it. Reflections of differences in me and my experiences? I haven't read much Poe (except for these) for a long long time so it's hard to come up with generalities. Another problem I have is that I read so fast that I may read past the assignment and end up talking about things we shouldn't have read yet. Anybody else have that problem? With such short stories, maybe we should read the whole thing instead of just half at a time.Or maybe not!!

On reading the newspaper reports, I became convinced of at least one thing. The voice overheard by the witnesses was not speaking French, Spanish, Italian or German! Which led me to wonder what, exactly, they were hearing, and whether it was a 'language' at all.

SCRAWLER, I was fascinated by your info. on the Surete. I had no idea that the original group were mostly ex-criminals, and led by an ex-criminal. Now I wonder what daring soul in the French government thought of this idea, and was powerful enough to put it in effect.

Antlerlady, I am one of those who is not re-reading, word for word, "The Murders in the Rue Morgue" because I have already re-read it recently for another discussion. I think it is still sufficiently fresh that a surface refresher suffices. I will be reading the other two stories in the series. Think of it as offering the posters a chance to 'catch me out' on my postings.

Babi

I am one who re-read the story, too. I had read it when I was a teen and hadn't remembered the beginning as so dry. It took me awhile to get through Poe's lead-in to the story.

I enjoyed Poe's use of whist in the lead-in explaining what turns out to be Dupin's method. Players not only had to play by the rules of the game, but had to use observation techniques, logical reasoning, and informed guessing to win. I was wondering if Whist were the precursor to Bridge. It seems very similar.

Here are the Rules of Whist: http://www.pagat.com/whist/whist.html

Marni

I thought the relationship between the narrator and the young Dupin was extremely odd. They lived together in darkness, alone, in an old mansion, with all light kept out so they were in a state of perpetual darkness. They did nearly everything together, didn't have visitors, conversed together, read together, went out on the town together, etc. (At last they got out - at night, of course.)

Poe described a crime that was so extremely horrifying and macabre. That's Poe for you! And then he has Dupin explain how he THINKS (doesn't know for sure until proven right) he has solved the mystery using careful observation and deductive reasoning (ratiocination). What an interesting contrast. Vivid violent horror versus cool reasoning. What an introduction to the detective story.

Poe also adds the element of the police who can't solve the murder (an important and typical element in today's detective story) - not exactly bumbling stumbling police, but certainly not in Dupin's league. And they don't seem particularly happy to discover that Dupin was able to resolve a mystery that they could not.

What is the mistake made by some policeman? So many cases go unsolved for years. At other times, the innocent serve time in prison for the guilty person's crime. I think Dupin is speaking here.

"It is not our part, as reasoners, to reject it on account of apparent 'impossibilities.' It is only left for us to prove that these apparent "impossibilities' are, in reality, not such."

In a criminal case the mind must remain open believing not that there is nothing new under the sun, but believing that there is something new under the sun. There is not a place for giving up. Every crime is solvable.

I keep feeling I read this at one time but wonder if it made an impression on me..Poe is SO WORDY I cant help but believe when and if I read it years ago I just didnt hurry through or ignore most of the introduction...Once we reached the story of the crime then I would have paid attention. Except for the fact that I have always loved the dictionary oen would almost need one to understand what Poe is saying.

Now the story has been in the paper, a number of people have been interviewed and their statements taken and in the paper and yet two days later or more the two gentlemen are at the scene of the crime and the bodies are still there? That astonished me...

The convoluted thinking exhibited by the two gentlemen is certainly part of the detective stories of today..The police have done all the right things but as we say they are not thinking out of box another thing with today's detective stories .. Now I am poised to read the rest but will refrain from doing so...dont want to get ahead of the discussion.

anna

Anna, I agree with you Poe is very wordy. I think he is love with his own writing.

The following quote is from the inside jacket cover of my book.

"Asked in 1894 if Edgar Allan Poe had influenced his work, Arthur Conan Doyle, creator of Sherlock Holmes, replied, "Oh, immensely! His detective is the best detective in fiction. . . . Dupin is unrivalled."

Could Poe's Detective Dupin novellas have motivatated others authors such as Rex Stout's Nero Wolfe and his right hand man Archie Goodwin.?

Bill H

Dupin also reminded me of the later Hercule Poirot.

And even later came "hard-boiled" detectives like Sam Spade, Philip Marlowe, Easy Rawlins, and Patrick Kenzie.

Anna: I'm glad you mentioned that about the bodies still there 2 days later. That was so weird. I don't think that really would have happened - especially because the 2 women had money there to pay for their burial.

I think it was weird too how Dupin and his friend were able to walk right in the room and look at the bodies. Talk about bumbling police! Didn't even secure the murder site, let alone the bodies!!! How did he get in, I forget!

Will we learn the name of the friend...did I miss that too?

Scrawler...very helpful information about Eugene Francois Vidocq - "French criminal who later became the first director of Surete Nationale and one of the first modern private investigators."

I'd wondered where Poe acquired his knowledge of criminal law. Did you mean to say that Vidocq was a French Criminal? Wow...that alone would be good experience for a private investigator!

"The Murders in the Rue Morgue", which appeared in 1841 was the first of those hundreds of locked-room mysteries that propose the puzzle of a dead body found in a room which seems effectively sealed. Sometimes the problem in such stories concerns the murder method (how was X stabbed, shot, poisoned, when nobody could have entered the room and there is no trace of a weapon or the poison?), and sometimes the means of entry or exit.

One common form of solution is that in which the murder was committed before the door was locked or after it had been re-opened, another depends upon some mechanical device like a murder weapon which will operate at a particular time, and another still is related to some possible means of entry which is not apparent." ~ "Bloody Murder"

So let us examine this locked room mystery keeping in mind that which has been suggested in the above paragraphs.

"Sometimes the problem in such stories concerns the murder method (how was X stabbed, shot, poisoned, when nobody could have entered the room and there is no trace of a weapon or the poison?)" "Of Madame L'Espanaye no traces were here seen;but an unusual quantity of soot being observed in the fire-place, a search was made in the chimney, and (horrible to relate!) the corpse of the daughter, head-downward, was dragged therefrom; it having been thus forced up the narrow aperture for a considerable distance. The body was quite warm. Upon examining it, many exoriations were perceived, no doubt occasioned by the violence with which it had been thrust up and disengaged. Upon the face were many severe scratches, and upon the throat, dark bruises, and deep indentations of finger nails, as if the deceased had been throttled to death."

Without giving anything away, who did you think could have done this horrible crime? When I first read this book at first I thought it might have been some escaped madman from some mental institution. But even a madman would have to have tremendous strength in order to shove the young woman into the chimney. And the strange thing about it was that the corpse was head-downward. I felt at the time that the way the corpse was found was significant, but I couldn't put my finger on why. If the murderer was a madman, why and how could he have done such a crime. Why not just leave the corpse in the room? Why exert this tremendous energy in order to hid the body? The room itself was in disarray. Shoving the body up a chimney seemed to me to be overkill.

"Upon the face were many severe scratches, and, upon the throat, dark bruises, and deep indentations of finger nails, as if the deceased had been throttled to death." From this we can presume that the deceased was choked and beaten. Where's Grisson when you need him? It would seem at this point that our murderer is not only mad, but in some kind of uncontrollable rage.

Anyone have any idea based on the above clues so far who could have done such a crime?

hahaha, Scrawler, you are asking us to ratiocinate! The only idea that I had was the younger woman saw the bad guy coming up the stairs and tried to hide in the chimney, pushing her feet up first...then the murderer found her and dragged her down by the throat and his fingernails made terrible marks on her. I'll be the first to admit I'm not good at ratiocination,

How did he escape? Hat's quoted something yesterday that we have to consider at this point -

"It is not our part, as reasoners, to reject it on account of apparent 'impossibilities.' It is only left for us to prove that these apparent "impossibilities' are, in reality, not such."

So we need to look at everything the police looked at and dismissed as impossible and consider them as possibilities. I don't think we have enough clues yet to do that, do you?

I am just rereading this story after many years. Poe is wordier than I remembered, although that style of writing was common in those days. These two men living together in darkness and only going out at night is indeed strange.

I have just finished reading the newspaper accounts where they apparently posted the interviews with everyone associated with the dead mother and daughter. It seems to make much of the fact that everyone who heard the two voices quarreling, thought the deeper voice spoke French, but the second shrill voice was thought to be speaking:

Muset - Spanish

Duval - Italian

Bird - German

Garcia - English

Montani - Russian

Dupin knew the Prefect of Police which is why they obtained permission to enter the crime scene. The newspaper article, mentioned as an afterthought that Adolphe Le Bon, bank clerk, was arrested and imprisoned, although with no explanation.

Poppy - thanks, I did forget that he knew the Prefect...but still wonder why he let him have the run of the place with the bodies still lying there. I also forget Dupin's line of work...? It seems he does nothing but hang out with the narrator.

Poe's description of Monsieur C. August Dupin. "This young gentleman was of an excellent, indeed of an illustrious family, but, by a variety of untoward events, had been reduced to such poverty that the energy of his character succumbed beneath it, and he ceased to bestir himself in the world, or to care for the retrieval of his fortunes."

Scrawler asked, "Anyone have any idea based on the above clues so far who could have done such a crime?"

I have no idea! I am terrible at solving mysteries!

NO IDEA but then I never had a clue when I read any Sherlock Holmes mystery either ..There have always been two kinds of mysteries to me .those that gave you all the clues so you could guess and those that revealed the clues ( never given) at the end.IN those the detective had clues but never revealed them until it was time to reveal all.There were times when I thought WELL IF I HAD KNOWN THAT I WOULD HAVE GUESSED THE MURDERER !!

Now I am anxious to find out who dun it
anna

I just like reading the stories. I agree with the person who wrote earlier that splitting a Poe short story in half is just about impossible.

Kleo

Why didn't anyone hear the screams of the women?

"The apartment was in the wildest disorder - the furniture broken and thrown about in all directions. There was only one bedstead; and from this the bed had been removed, and thrown into the middle of the floor. On a chair lay a razor, besmeared with blood. On the hearth were two or three long and thick tresses of gray human hair, also dabbled with blood, and seeming to have been pulled out by the roots. Upon the floor were found four Napoleons, and ear-ring of topaz, three large silver spoons, three smaller of metal d' Alger, and two bags, containing nearly four thousand francs in gold. The drawers of a bureau, which stood in one corner, were open, and had been apparently, rifled, although many articles still remained in them. A small iron safe was discovered under the bed (not under the bedstead). It was open, with the key still in the door. It had no contents beyond a few old letters, and other papers of little consequence. Of Madame L'Espanaya no traces were here seen..."

So what do we have here. We have broken furniture, but not just broken they were thrown about. So this tells me whoever did this had to be in some kind of a rage. We have a bloody razor, but the daughter although she had scratches and was beaten was not apparently cut with razor. So that must mean that the bloody razor was used on Madame L'Espanaye. But where's the body? And more importantly why would the murderer leave behind the weapon? The description of the gray hair being pulled out by the roots also indicated someone in a rage. Who would do such a thing?

Now we come to a possible motive. Could this have been a robbery gone bad? I don't think so. Not with the jewelry, silver spoons, and four thousand francs in gold. One curious thing was that whoever did this deed went through the drawers of a bureau and rifled the contents. Why? What person would do such a thing? Poe [at least in my copy] emphasized the word "bureau". Why? Perhaps to draw attention to the word.

Also a small iron safe was discovered under the bed (not under the bedstead). Again I ask why? Poe also emphasized the word "bed". For what purpose? Could these be clues to the murderer?

Hats, they did hear the screams, that's what drew them to the house, the women screaming.

Scrawler, well, why not rifle the contents of a drawer if you're turning the whole room inside out?

Kleo

"

"It was a freak of fancy in my friend (for what else shall I call it?) to be enamored of the Night for her own sake; and into this bizarrerie, as into all his others, I quietly fell; giving myself up to his wild whims with a perfect abandon. The sable divinity would not herself dwell with us always; but we could counterfeit her presence. At the first dawn of the morning we closed all the messy shutters of our old building; lighting a couple of tapers which, strongly perfumed, threw out only the ghastliest and feeblest of rays. By the aid of these we then busied our souls in dreams—reading, writing, or conversing, until warned by the clock of the advent of the true Darkness. Then we sallied forth into the streets arm in arm...."

I, too, was struck by the circumstances described in this writing. I felt these two men were suffering from a form of depression. Otherwise, why else would two men of presumable moral excellence live in such an unethical manner? What normal happiness could be found in this type of living? Perhaps this was a reflection of Poe's own mental state that he found this acceptable.

Again, why would it by acceptable, even in that decade, for two men to sally forth ARM IN ARM.

Today, we all know what kind of thinking this would provoke in others as they watched two men walk arm in arm.

Bill H

Bill, the paragraph that you quoted would indicate that they didn't sleep at all. At dawn, they closed the shutters and spent the day reading, writing or conversing. Then at dark they sallied forth.

Since the motives for the murders doesn't seem to be money... at least gold was left lying around, perhaps the motive is to inherit the property, or revenge by a jilted lover.

I chuckled when I read that they "sallied forth." I'm reading Don Quixote now and Sancho and Don Quixote "sally forth" in my edition.

Maybe there isn't a motive or motives for the murder. It might have been a senseless killing. A man just insane with rage. Is a senseless murder harder to investigate and prove whodunit than a case where the motives are clear?

Marni I am glad Don Q is here in spirit. Don Q will keep the nightmares away.

Kleo I need to read the story again. It's a bit spooky. I lost my book. I will find it tomorrow.

"The shrieks were continued until the gate was forced - and then suddenly ceased. They seemed to be screams of some person (or persons) in great agony - were loud and drawn out, not short and quick."

I don't believe these are the screams of the mother and daughter. Two victims being murdered, one shoved down a chimney and one's throat cut, couldn't stop screaming at exactly the same time. That's impossible. These had to be the screams of other people. Maybe these were the screams of witnesses inside the rooms.

Also, I agree with Scrawler. Why would the murderer leave behind the evidence. He does nothing to hide his crime. The murderer has left the place as if he wanted to be discovered.

Bill, I, too, was caught up in that paragraph you quoted. To me, it was the language. Poe writes prose as if it were poetry. Each word is polished, the images created are poetical, it has a cadence arousing in this reader the same semi-hypnotissm that poetry does.

Golden State Poppy, I got the same impression concerning their lack of sleep. Also, from the feeble light the candles gave, I'm astonished they could accomplish any measurable amount of writing. .

MrsSherlock, In the paragraph I posted, Poe aptly described, for me, the personality of Dupin and his companion. When I read the other Dupin tales, I'll retain the portrayal of these two men I received Poe's writing in that paragraph.

Bill H

"Retracing our steps, we came again to the front of the dwelling, and, having shown our credentials, were admitted by the agents in charge. We went upstairs—into the chamber where the body Mademoiselle L'Espanaye had been found, and where both the deceased still lay. The disorders of the room had, as usual, been suffered to exist. I saw nothing beyond what had been stated in the "Gazette des Tribunaux." Dupin scrutinized everything—not excepting the bodies of the victims. We then went into the other rooms, and into yard; a gendarme accompanying us throughout. The examination occupied us until dark, when we took our departure."

Anna, expressed astonishment the two bodies were allowed to lie so long at the scene of the crime. I, too, was amazed by this. When I read the last sentence in the above quoted paragraph (The examination occupied us until dark, when we took our departure.) How long did the authorities intend to leave the deceased lying there, and for what purpose? I would imagine the crime scene would be getting a bit ripe by now (smile).

Was it ever explained why such a disrespect was shown to the deceased?

Bill H

For me, Poe intentionally, or not, described the acceptable squalor and unsanitary conditions existing in that decade by allowing the bodies of the victims to lie for so long a time.

Bill H

I guess I must seem strange to because I write through most of the night. To me its the best time to write and I also keep my house dark with the shutters and drapes drawn. Than again I'm a bit of a recluse. As I grow older I find that I don't need as much sleep. I tend to take cat naps from time to time.

More clues: To me the genius of Poe was in how he set up a scene. Poe not only gives us dead bodies, but he gives two dead bodies of women; one with her throat cut and her hair torn from her scalp and the other stuffed up a chimney with her head downward. Most unusual wouldn't you say.

Then there is the matter of the murder weapon. The bloody razor is in plain sight laying on a chair. First off why didn't the murderer take it with him? And if it was used in the crime why wasn't it found next to the old woman's body?

But perhaps the most important clue of all was the interviewers descriptions of the voices they heard. Isidoe Muset, gendarme states "the shrill voice was a foreigner". Could not be sure whether it was the voice of a man or a woman. Could not make out what was said, but believed the language to be SPANISH."

Henri Durval said the shrill voice, was that of an ITALIAN. Was certain it was not French. Could not distinguish the words, but was convinced by the intonation that the speaker was an Italian.

Odenheimer was sure the shrill voice was that of a man - of a FRENCHMAN.

William Bird, was sure the shrill voice was very loud - louder than the gruff one. Is sure that it was not the voice of an Englishman. Appeared to be that of a GERMAN. Might have been a woman's voice. Does not understand German.

Alfonzo Garcio was sure the shrill voice was that of an ENGLISHMAN. Does not understand the English language, but judges by the intonation.

Alberto Montani could not make out the shrill voice. Thinks it the voice of a RUSSIAN. Never conversed with a native of Russia.

I think that at this point Poe is having a little fun with us. He was showing us by any doubt that we mustn't believe everything we hear. He is showing us that even though all these witnesses were at the scene, none of them really could identify the "shrill" voice. In fact there really isn't a clew that the voice was even HUMAN!

So what do we know. We know who the dead bodies are and we have a possible murder weapon in the razor blade. What we don't know is how the murderer entered the room or how he/she exited.

Scrawler, this quote written by Virginia Woolf makes me think of you.

"It is only by putting it into words that I make it whole...."

I envy your ability to have a talent for writing.

I first read this story so long ago I no longer remember what I first thought about the murderer. What seems clear to me now may not have been so clear the first time around. One thing is certain, tho'; it would have required superhuman strength to cram a body feet first up a chimney. Which leads one to consider, like Scrawler's comment on the shrill voice, that the killer wasn't human.

Babi

One thing we've learned about modern humans is that under the influence of certain drugs and under the needs of some situations humans can display superhuman strength.

People under the influence of PCP can hardly be subdued by a policeman, or a group of them. All of the time you read stories about a man lifting a car off of an accident victim. I met a woman who was in the paper ages ago for lifting a full-sized pickup truck off of someone. She tried to lift the truck another time and found she could not budge it an inch. She had assumed she had lifted the truck because of the physics of the situation. Nope, pure adrenaline.

Shackleton and two men climbed an unscalable mountain range after weeks of travel on a small boat in the fierce open waters of the Drake Passage AFTER sledging sailing to the island AFTER sledging across the ice to get to the sea. If someone had made up their journey, no one would have believed that they did all that, much less scaled the mountains after all that.

A man died a couple of years ago who had received the highest dosage of radiation ever recorded (Hiroshima or Nagasaki). No doctor has a clue how he survived a dosage that should have killed him in the first day or two.

If humans have learned nothing over the years, it's that humans are capable of the superhuman.

Kleo

Madmen are also capable of strength that appears superhuman, simply because they have no inner restraints. A normal person will instinctively 'pull' their punches because they don't to do excessive harm. I wonder if a person in terror of their life might also be possessed of extraordinary strength, as the inhibition about harming the other person would be erased. They would want to do maximum damage in order to escape the threat to their own lives.

It's not the superhuman strength alone, but that in combination with all the other puzzling elements suggests the possibility of non-human actions.

Babi

Babi, good point about mad men.

What exactly points to non-human actions to you? By non-human do you mean animal or monster or natural disaster or ghost? Murdering two women without eating them up seems to point to human action more than non-human, imo. Murder without motive seems purely the realm of the human being, no other.

Kleo

And why stuff one of the women up a chimney upside down? Not only did the murderer have to have great strength, but perhaps he had to have some reason for cramming her up there. So grotesque.

Nearly cutting off the head of the other victim with a razor had to take great strength also. And again, why do it? What possessed the murderer to slice the neck of the victim so viciously that the head nearly came off?

It seems like there is great rage appearing in these murders.

A person in his right mind wouldn't leave all the evidence lying around to be discovered by the police. This is a person or persons needing to be locked up immediately.

And I am up late which is common for me .I read the rest of the story..Now I also did some research and found a place that explains the story in English that doesnt take as much effort as reading Poe. and also deciphers the French quote at the end ... I refer you to http://www.bookrags.com/notes/poe/PART17.htm back later anna

Anna, thank you for the link. I find reading Poe requires a considerable amount of effort.

With all the phrases within most of his sentences, I lose the train of thought.

Bill H

As Anna, pointed out, today we start the second half of our story.

"The wild disorder of the room; the corpse thrust, with the head downward, up the chimney; the frightful mutilation of the body of the old lady….."

The extreme mayhem that took place in the room caused me to imagine a person or persons insanely outraged with afflicting as much damage as possible to satisfy some long held resentment strong enough to justify this powerful retaliation.

Bill H

For those who are reading the novella on line, the second half of the story begins with,

"The Gazette, he replied, has not entered, I fear, into the unusual horror of the thing."

Bill H

I wonder why he was arrested "although nothing appeared to incriminate him..." He was only the clerk who delivered the bags of money to the two ladies.Dupin seemed to become really interested in the case because LeBon had once "rendered him a service." Do you think that was the only reason for Dupin's interest?

For people who have finished the story. How did Dupin get to be such an expert on the appearance of Orangutan hair and their handprints? How did he know that the orangtan was still running loose so that the owner would respond to the newspaper ad? Where was he all the time of the investigation so that he wasn't seen until later? And last, is the story true to the actual behavior of wild orangutans Are they so violent? I've only seen the ones in the zoo and in trained animal acts.

One more thing. In modern times do you think the sailor would have been considered so innocent or would he have been accused of something like endangerment or taken to civil court?

And yet another thing. Can someone translate the French line at the end?

Good point, Hats. Evidence points to a madman, someone needing to be locked up immediately.

Ms. Crankypants, if you notice the posts before yours, someone included a link to the French translation.

Kleo

The sailor who owned the orangutans in today's court system would have been held responsible for the attack and of course he should be..I am sure you cant bring an exotic animal into a country without some sort of license. care, etc...And in today's society people who allow a pet of any kind run loose and who injures other people are held liable. Here in Virginia we just had a father and mother who had two pet pit bulls that attacked and killed their 2 year old son ( they were very neglectful as they never heard his screams . allowed the dogs in the house knowing they were vicious) and are now in jail for child abuse and manslaughter I forget how long they will be there . but I hope it will send a message to others who own a vicious animal..

I have a dog that would welcome an ax murderer in as long as he played with the dog..He thinks anyone who comes here is HIS GUEST ..

I think Dupin was rather pompous and why didnt he take his theory to the police as soon as had made his observations? The Prefect allowed him access to the crime scene and had a right to expect Dupin would reveal any thing he uncovered And did I miss why the Prefect allowed him this privelge..? Had he solved crimes before? had a reputation for solving mysteries? I think nowadays he would been held rather responsible if he didnt take his Knowledge and thoughts to the police.....

Does remind me of Sherlock Holmes tho ...anna

Thank you Hats for your thoughts.

"Poe invented the first detective of fiction, the Chevalier C. Auguste Dupin, and established the convention by which the brilliant intelligence of the detective is made to shine more brightly through the comparative obtuseness of his friend who tells the story. For nearly a century this was to be a fixed pattern for most detective stories.

The friend might be exceptionally thick-headed like Dr. Watson, Poirot's companion Captain Hastings, or Philo Vance's District Attorney, John F. - X Markham, he might be a more or less neutral receiver of the detective's bright ideas like Ellery Queen's father the Inspector, or Thorndyke's friend Jervis, he might even be allowed his share of natural shrewdness like Hanaud's urbane dillettante, Mr. Ricardo, but he had to be there as a RECORDER. At least that is one's first impression, although like all categorical statements this one has its exceptions. But still, the Dupin pattern of the omniscient amateur detective and his clumsy coadjutor was the one that nine out of ten writers were to follow.

Poe made Dupin in his own image, or rather in the image of what he desired to be. He was 'of an excellent - indeed of an illustrious family', partly because Poe detested the levelling idea of democracy, and partly as compensation for his own upbringing in the case of an unsymathetic foster father. He was poor, but like a romantic hero (and unlike Poe) regarded this very little, managing 'by means of rigorous economy, to produce the necessaries of life, without troubling himself about its superfuities'. He believed, as Poe did, in the supreme importance of the intellect, yet a strain of wild romantic feeling led him to close the shutters of the apartment in which he lived at dawn, and to go out into the streets only when 'warmed by the clock of the advent of true Darkness'.

Like Sherlock Holmes later on (and Canon Doyle fully acknowledged his debt), Dupin is able to interpret the thoughts of his companion by the way in which he reacts to exterior events like being pushed aside by a fruiterer carrying a basket on his head. He solves the problems presented to him by pure analytic deduction. Aristocratic, arrogant and apparently omniscient, Dupin is what Poe often wished he could have been himself, an emotionless reasoning machine." ~ Bloody Murder

I have to wonder would Dupin's character or for that matter any of the other amateur detectives been that great without their side-kicks. An admiring companion goes along way to lifting not only an ego, but a source in which to display one's omniscient conjecture and analytic deduction.

I can believe that Poe desired to be the image of Dupin. I'm sure after reading Poe's biography that he very much wanted to be apart of some "illustrious family". I thought his foster father was more than unsympathetic. But like most fathers at this time period he probably didn't understand Poe's artistic genius.

One thing that struck me as interesting was the fact that: "Poe detested the levelling idea of democracy." In our own time we think of democracy as a good ideal, but in the 1800s democracy was in its infancy and not everyone was free to indulge in democracy. Democracy was really for the rich and famous. The poor, even the romantic poor, were no more better off under democracy than they were under King George. It would take decades of hard work and perserverence in order to make democracy what it is today.

Re "why didnt he take his theory to the police as soon as had made his observations?"

I think Dupin said himself that his ideas were not yet proven. They were only his deductions. He was waiting for definitive proof before he presented his case to the officials. If the sailor arrived as a result of the newspaper ad, Dupin might have his proof.

I would certainly agree that Poe saw himself as Dupin and not the narrator. It appears to me that he liked the idea of emotionless using of the mind. I think his knowledge of orangutans is quite limited, and do not think they would act in this way, unless ill, and even then would not be so violent or so smart.

KLEO, I don't really buy ghosts or monsters as culprits here. And if it were an animal, then it would not be murder, would it? And as to motive, an animals motives for killing would be very different from those of humans, and 'eating' would be only one of them. An animal will strike out in fear or pain, even one that is ordinarily docile and friendly.

In any case, we are now into the second half of the story, and Antlerlady has already introduced the orangutan. So that question is now settled.

ANNAFAIR, of course Dupin should have taken his information to the Prefect, but then our fictional investigators never do, do they? It would spoil the story if they did not follow it out to the end. Of course, in the real world, withholding information would get them in very serious trouble. One has to let a few things slide, in the world of fiction.

Babi

Yes, Babi, if an animal did it it would not be murder, and animals do have motives other than eating, such as fear. There are problems with this one, too, just as with eating.

Kleo

"Dupin is what Poe often wished he could have been himself, an emotionless reasoning machine. A reasoning machine would not be interested in motives and psychology of people, but only in making correct deductions about their actions. It should be repeated that Poe himself did not regard these stories very seriously.

"These tales of ratiocination owe most of their popularity to being something in a new key," he wrote to a correspondent in 1846. "I do not mean to say that they are not ingenious - but people think them more ingenious than they are - an account of their method and air of method."

The stories were exercises in analysis on matters that caught the interest of his brilliant mind, and he was right in mentioning their "air" of method, for all of the Dupin stories reveal under examination mistakes that are damaging to them as pieces of rational deduction." ~ "Blood Murder"

So we can safely assume that Poe was more interested in plot. It was the ingenious of a new idea that people liked about Poe's detective stories. They were neither interested in the motives behind the action or the characterization of his characters.

Earlier I mentioned that Poe wanted to be like Dupin in that he too wanted to be of an illustrious family and be a romantic hero. And I think this was what the readers of the time wanted to get from reading Poe's stories.

Many of Poe's short stories follow the plan that maintains tight focus on the end, with scarcely any exposition at all and perhaps just two characters. The story flies like an arrow and hits the target at maximum speed.

"he was right in mentioning their "air" of method, for all of the Dupin stories reveal under examination mistakes that are damaging to them as pieces of rational deduction."

Precisely! Thank you, Scrawler. That does not, of course, impair our enjoyment of the stories, so long as we are willing to 'go along' with the hero's brilliance.

Babi

Scrawler, thanks for all the information on Poe. Normally, I don’t feel the need to know much about the author to appreciate his or her work. I think these tales are an exception.

Antlerlady poses a lot of good questions, among them, “How did he know that the orangtan was still running loose so that the owner would respond to the newspaper ad?”

One thing that struck me was how readily Dupin admitted what he did not know or was not sure of. Just after the text of the newspaper ad in the story, he states, “I do not know it. I am not sure of it.”

Dupin is like a scientist testing a hypothesis. He comes up with a theory and then tries to prove it true. I found the process of ratiocination fascinating. That is what “made” the tale for me.

"The stories were exercises in analysis on matter that caught the interest of his brilliant mind, and he was right in mentioning their "air" of method, for all of the Dupin stories reveal under examination mistakes that are damaging to them as pieces of rational deduction.

The most notable, and least known, of these are the criticisms made by Laura Riding of "The Murders in the Rue Morgue". They concern they way in which the ape got in and out of the window fastened by a secret spring undiscovered by the police. As she points out, this is in itself a most unlikely arrangement - why should such a mechanism be fitted in a fourth story room of an old shabby house? In relation to the window, one cannot do better than quote Miss Riding:

The ape reached the window from the lightning-rod which was five and a half feet away, by a shutter three and a half feet broad which could shut like a door to cover the whole window and was not lying flat against the wall. He grasped the ' trellis-work' on the upper part of the shutter and swung himself into the room, landing unobserved directly on the head of the bed. [The head of the bed partly obstructed the window.] This is impossible.

Poe at one point suggests that it was a double-sashed window: he speaks of the ' lower sash.' But he does not say, whether only the lower sash moved, or both sashes, or whether the two sashes were really one single piece. If only the lower sash moved, then the ape, grasping the shutter and kicking himself backward [front ways is impossible] into the room would have been obstructed by the upper half of the window from landing directly on the head of the bed, which was pressed close against the window. If only the lower half moved, then it was only the lower half that was open. If however, the upper sash moved too, the ape, on climbing out and shutting the window behind him, as he is said to have done, could not have fastened this upper sash by the secret 'catch'...The window would have remained open.

I have never seen any answer made to the detailed criticism by writers about the detective story, who seem to be unaware of it. Poe made corrections in later versions of the story. He increased the length of the broken nail in the window frame, and reduced the distance been house and shutter, but the changes do not dispose of the criticism." ~ Bloody Murder

The criticism in no way detracts from the enjoyment of the tale. In fact it would have never occurred to me that there was any problem with how the ape entered or exited, and to be frank the description of the criticism is a bit over my head. However, having said that I do think the criticism does give one to ponder the circumstances of how the actual murder was committed. I know for me the first time I ever read this book I was so taken back that the murderer was "an ape" that how he got in and out kind of flew by without any real thought on the matter.

Perhaps a good question to ask is: Does such detailed criticism weigh too hard on Poe? It does, in the sense that almost any ' tale of ratiocination' would wilt if subjected to similar examination.

Egads. "If only the lower sash moved, then the ape, grasping the shutter and kicking himself backward [front ways is impossible] into the room would have been obstructed by the upper half of the window from landing directly on the head of the bed, which was pressed close against the window."

Why on earth would the upper half of the window have obstructed the ape? Is the window so small that it obstructs the ape? I'll have to go look.

Is the only reason it is impossible, because the upper half of the window is in the way if the lower half is open? And why is it impossible? I simply don't see it, and I think that people gather these depths of externalities on stories (fiction) that just boggles the mind. Why doesn't she just write her own internally consistent story? Or if she doesn't like Poe, don't read him? I don't buy the conclusion of Murders in the Rue Morgue at all, and it's not one of my favorite Poe's. However, it's just a STORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kleo

The criticism of the window reminds me of the questions Quentin had about the shadow cast by the raven in The Poe Shadow. I had never thought about it when I read and enjoyed the poem just as I didn't worry about whether or not the ape could really have gotten in the window as described.

I saw several gaps in Poe/Dupin's reasoning: how did he know the ape had not been recovered by the owner, how did he know it was an Orang utan (sp?) just because he had read about one, and not another species? The window problem would depend on how big the window was, which we do not know.

But the flaw that bothered me was: how did he know, out of all the impossible things that he eliminated, that the widow must be possible? It doesn't seem any less impossible, at first, than those he eliminated with a few words.

But, in spite of my criticisms of his logic, Poe has grasped all the elements that make detective stories (to me, at least) endlessly fascinating: the logical puzzle element, the attraction of being in a world where problems are solvable by logical reasoning and where, even though tragic things happen justice always triumphs, the technical detail (many mystery story readers like to learn about technique), and the chance to learn something on a new subject (in this case apes). I often say that everything I know, I know from reading Detective Stories. And, in spite of endless years of formal schooling, it's almost true.

Later writers have added other elements: character development, relationships, humor, a sense of the tragic. These enrich the stories a lot, but often threaten to take it over and drown out the basic elements that Poe uses.

You can see Dupin uses a lot of guesswork in his method. Then he crosses his fingers!

Bob and I may go to see the new movie "Hollywoodland" tomorrow night. Adrien Brody plays a detective out to solve the mystery of the death of George Reeves, TV's Superman in the 1950's.

Poe neatly sidestepped the moral issue by mustering an orang-utang as the killer...subsequent detective story writers have followed Poe afar by dehumanizing their human killers. To arouse sympathy for the criminal would wrest reader interest away from the focal character of the detective. In this and The Purloined Letter Poe established whatever bases the genre has for claiming literary stature. (from A Handbook of American Literature by Martin S. Day) ellen c

IT IS JUST A STORY

I am sure when I read this the first time I never spent a minute wondering the whys and hows of the story It was just a story ..it gave me a few minutes of pleasure and I went on, In fact several times when we have discussed a book here on line I have opted out after a few posts. I didnt want to pick it apart line by line ..I loved it , enjoyed it and was ready to go on to read another. Reading has always given me the greatest pleasure of my life.

I still the love the impossibility of fairy tales , the clever ways in detective stories ( which were my favorite for years and still take up a lot of my time) I have to confess though I dont enjoy the detailed paragraphs describing the most horrid crimes in todays books Those I either have to skip those passages as I do the lurid sex scenes in other books. There are some things I still think should be left to the imagination. But I do love to re read a story from my past and see how it recall it now..( not very well) and then read the comments ..makes my day..thanks all, anna

"... Devise your method and then tell your story, which inevitably will make the mystery seem rather better than it has to be, because all locked rooms are variants of a small number of simple devices, most of which are ways of making such rooms, unlocked all along.

... Have your 'murder' prove only an accident, if an extraordinarily unlikely one (This is essentially is the secret of Poe's "Murders in the Rue Morgue").

... That the blueprint detective story at its most basic is not a story. It is a static puzzle. Someone has been murdered in mysterious circumstances: how has it come about? But this basic situation, in order to be made into something which people will have pleasure in reading, has to be seen in almost the exactly opposite light, as the gradual making clear of things. In other words, as a story. So what has to happen, ideally, is that your detective must learn piece by piece things which will eventually make the answer to the fundamental puzzle clear. But this cannot be a simple step-by-step process. The whole point of this sort of book is that the solution when it comes should be startling and unexpected." ~ "Writing Crime Fiction"

Do you see "Murders in the Rue Morgue" as a "static puzzle"? When you think about it, all we really want to find out is how the murder happened. We are not particularly interested in the victims or even the murderer. It is the puzzle of the locked room that intrigues us.

Now what about the fact that when it came down to it, it was really an accident that the ape did the crime. Couldn't we say that about most murders? Of course we could argue that some murders are premedated, but when it comes down to it everything has to fall into place to make it happen.

In the end I personally read detective stories for the 'puzzle' element in them than anything else. The more modern detective stories annoy me when they deal so much with the relationships of the characters etc. Get on with it I want to scream and solve the puzzle!

I apologize for being somewhat inattentive in the discussion but the arthritis in my knee and back has been very painful and I have limited my sitting time at the computer. However, I must admit that all of your posts have been great. Perhaps my limited time in this discussion has brought out the best in all of you.

Tomorrow, the 10th, of September will end the discussion of The Murders in the Rue Morgue. However, Poe's novella of "The Mystery of Marie Roget" will begin on the 1st of October. I do hope all of you will bring your comments once again to this mystery discussion.

But please continue to post your interpretation of this mystery again tomorrow.

Bill H

Interesting! I read mysteries for the unfolding of the characters and their relationships, rather than the "locked room". I am reading one now by Michael Connelly, "Chasing the Dime". The main character just stumbles into a mystery, when a new phone number had a former owner which intrudes into his life. He is a Silicon Valley executive, and typical scientist....no social skills. I find him no more sympathetic than I did Poe's Dupin or the narrator. I guess I have to find something interesting about the mystery solver to care what happens.

The question about how Dupin knew it was the orang-utang doesn't bother me. Apes of any species were not roaming around Paris. If there was a zoo at the time containing an orang-utang or any other ape, they weren't running loose. If they were, that would have been news, too. Ergo, the only large wild animal running loose in Paris was the missing orang-utang.

Joan's point that we really don't know the size of the windows in such buildings, or for that matter the age and size of the orang-utang, makes it impossible to say for sure that the beast could not have gotten in that way.

I, too, am willing to allow a certain amount of leeway for a story. But I do want the story to proceed in a reasonably logical, and possible, line. I don't want the author to insert obvious errors and expect me to admire his hero's cleverness.

Babi

Just wanted to tell you how much I enjoyed this discussion and will add the next on my CD to read ..it worked very well and only took up 89KB I am not sure how much the CD holds but I think I will have room for the other stories and then some.

I hope by Oct 1 you are feeling better and this wont be such an effort for you.. Believe me it is appreciated...I think I mentioned how much I enjoy mystery stories ..that is not the same as detective stories sometimes This was a mystery ...a puzzlement ,.that makes a difference even if there are what I can say some little annoying lack of knowledge known only to the person who solves the mystery in any case I look forward to Oct.. take care .always ,anna

Today concludes our discussion of Poe's "The Murders in the Rue Morgue." I appreciate the many fine post made by all of you. The gave me a greater knowledge and understanding of Poe's novella that I overlooked the first time I read the story many years ago.

Thank you once again for your interesting and enlightening contributions.

I hope to see all of you again October 1st., when Poe's discussion of "The Mystery of Marie Roget" will begin.

Bill H

Thanks, Bill. Hope you feel better.

Marni

Oh, good. I have really run out of anything further to say on the first story, and wondered what we would do for the next two weeks. See you back here Oct. 1, and I hope you are feeling fine by then, BILL.

bABI

As a long-time fan of Poe, I have quite a collection of his work but am unable to find the Marie Roget story - would it be possible to put this online. I am really enjoying this discussion and hope you are feeling better Bill

Ellen, UVA always comes through! Hope you enjoy this story - a little different slant on C. Auguste Dupin's abilities, but ratiocination is put to use!Mystery of Marie Rogêt

Hope you feel better very soon, Bill!

Aaarrghhhhh! It's time, me hearties, to sign up for the discussion of The Mutiny on Board H.M.S. Bounty! This book is Captain Bligh's own written account of what happened on the mutinous voyage and afterward when he and some of his crew were set adrift in shark-infested waters.

The discussion begins officially on November 1. There's plenty of grog, salt pork, and duff aboard ship waiting for you, so sign up here:

patwest, "---Mutiny on Board H.M.S. Bounty, The ~ William Bligh ~ Proposed for Nov. 1st" #, 11 Sep 2006 2:26 pm

Marni

The other orangatang in fiction that committed murder was in a Du Massapaunt story. It was about a biologist who lived with the apes in a certain "place" where orangatanges are, and he brought one little female orphan to raise. Many years later he sends to Paris for a wife and after she is there a day or so the biologist goes on a field trip and the femme orangetang tears the wife into little pieces. I wish I knew who wrote this "animal crime"first...Du Massapaunt or Poe. faith

Faith--You made me wonder who first used an unusual orangutan in a story. Maupassant (1850-1893) was born a year after Poe (1809-1849) died. So the monkey credit goes to Poe.

I wonder if there was some kind of connection to Darwin.

Maryal

Maryal, hate to be too picky, but Orangs are apes, not monkeys.

Kleo

Thanks, Kleo, but apes will do just fine for the Darwin question, in fact better.

I was just pointing out that it's the ape question that goes to Poe, not the monkey question, as Orangutans are apes, not monkeys. I'm not sure what the Darwin question is, but I expect he was interested in both apes and monkey, although probably more interested in apes, considering his later writings.

Mid-19th century Westerners were fascinated by the apes, and interested in monkeys, but never to the degree apes hypnotized the popular imagination.

Kleo

Did anyone see the Tarzan movie with Christopher Lambert in the 80's - Greystoke something? It had wonderful sad scenes of the captured apes in a 19th century London zoo. They were doing experiments on them and Tarzan tried to save them. The scene had me blubbering.

Greystoke: The Legend of Tarzan, Lord of the Apes directed by Hugh Hudson, starring Christopher Lambert as Tarzan, the Lord of the Apes? I saw it, but don't remember that scene, as it was quite some time ago. Yes, the conditions in zoos of the day were such to drive an orangutan to escape and kill people. I can't look at the Great Apes, or the gibbons, at zoos, where folks stare at them. Still, they're simply murdered elsewhere.

Kleo

It really is sad to see them in zoos. I used to love zoos. But now I feel sad when I see the animals stuck. Some zoos are better than others where the animals have room to roam. But most don't really have much room.

What's the difference between a gorilla and an orangutan? Is one just larger than the other one? Is one more vicious? Does an orangutan have the strength to do what the one did in the story to those two women?

I have seen orangutans in the zoo. The orangutans have a beautiful fox red fur coat.

Here's a photo of an orangutan:

http://www.pbase.com/gpc/image/52784592

Pictures of baby orangutans:

http://www.orangutantours.com/orangutanpicture.htm

Here's Koko, the gorilla. Just click on any picture to enlarge:

http://www.koko.org/kidsclub/pictures/koko.html

Here's a teeny gorilla baby:

http://www.pbase.com/sheila/image/18896406

Just poking my head in your discussion, if that's okay... I think it's very insightful to bring up Darwin... Poe was writing before Darwin's theories, but it's very likely Poe was using the orangutan as a racial stand-in -- the enslaved dark creature, abused and driven to violence; of course, Poe's sympathy for the orangutan was limited, as was his sympathy for blacks in America. Later, though the Murders in the Rue Morgue was folded into the cultural exploration of Darwinism -- indeed there was a Bela Lugosi film version of Murders in 1932 that is very directly trying to work out the connections between humans and apes, to the point of a very disturbing plotline: a mad scientist is trying to mate apes with beautiful women (yes, it is very different from Poe's stories!)... of course, the resistance to evolution had threads of racial fears, as well, because it not only connected humankind more firmly to animals, but also to each other... see the Lugosi film if you can find it, and note the similarities to King Kong -- particularly the climactic chase of the orangutan (or ape, I can't remember what they use) over the rooftops as he carries the beautiful woman... and of course, we can then step right over to King Kong, a year later in 1933, where Fay Wray's character is named Ann *Darrow* (think Clarance Darrow in the Scopes trial) ... King Kong, the fear of our unknown roots, and of the violence it can cause particularly to females, can be traced right back to Poe's Murders in the Rue Morgue

The 1932 Robert Florey version of Murders in the Rue Morgue features Charles Gemora in a gorilla suit. He is remembered for this because he later had a heart attack on the set for a similar movie in the 50s (similar meaning also based on the Poe short story in some remote way) while dressed in a gorilla suit--not fatal.

The 1932 Murders in the Rue Morgue is well appreciated by movie buffs, and is surely available via NetFlix and Blockbuster, because it is one of Bela Lugosi's best films--in spite of the somewhat shameful script. Watching him in this film is a real treat, although most people living today will have at least a slight retch response at much of the script, dialogue, plot and innuendo.

In addition to Bela Lugosi acting in the movie, the film is famous for its German noirish cinematography by Karl Freund, possibly most well known for other movies, such as the stunning Fritz Lang 1927 Metropolis with Günther Rittau and Walter Ruttmann, one of the greatest artistic losses of the 20th century, as much of the film has been misplaced, the silent Carl Boese and Paul Wegener German Golem movie, and with Arthure Edeson, Lewis Milestone's All Quiet on the Western Front, also the 1931 Dracula, and later moving on to TV and I Love Lucy.

In include all this information because I adore Karl Freund's cinematography! And am rather fond of Bela Lugosi on screen.

I had never thought of the connection between Fay Wray's Ann Darrow in Tod Browning's 1933 King Kong and attorney Clarence Darrow, still in the 30s the talk of the town for losing the Scopes Monkey Trial (although Scopes' conviction was later overturned by a higher court on an unrelated technicality).

As I had to post my orangutan comment on Book Views when this board closed, here it is:

Orangutans and Gorillas are about as different as can be, although some scientists argue otherwise--and can't be thoroughly dismissed. Most taxonomists seem to think that orangutans branched off and started going their own way long before gorillas headed their own way.

Branching off, means they left the main line of heritage. This is like leaving home when you are 5-years-old and growing up less versed in your own immediate family's culture than would be the case if you lived at home until you are 18.

Orangutans were adopted out as infants, gorillas as 5-year-old and chimpanzees left the house that eventually wound up as humans when they were about 15. These are just guesses, as I don't really know the exact ages or relationships between ages, except that orangutans are ancient divergers.

Kleo

Hello, Matthew, welcome to this discussion. Are you still in Poland? I hope they are treating you well. I know some authors enjoy book tours and others have to grit their teeth to make it through. Hoping that you are one of those who likes tours.

Maryal

Hi Maryal, I'm back from Poland, and they treated me quite well, thank you... I enjoy being on the road, but am always ready to be back home, too. It's a shame, speaking of the road, that Poe didn't get to travel more -- that he never actually got to Paris to research his Dupin stories. His observations would have been priceless...

Found on the web. A painting of an Orangutan

Found on the web. A painting of an Ape

Bill H

From my files, these are some of my assorted notes on Poe's possible sources for Murders in the Rue Morgue, or other connections to reality, quoting various people, including first Poe himself

- Sources:

o Poe, Marginalia VIII, Graham’s, Nov 1846: “I was not a little surprised, in turning over these pages, to come upon the admirable, thrice admirable story called "Gringalet et Coupe en Dew," which is related by PiqueVinaigre to his companions in La Force. Rarely have I read any thing of which the exquisite skill so delighted me. For my soul I could not suggest a fault in it--except, perhaps, that the intention of telling a very pathetic story is a little too transparent. //But I say that I was surprised in coming upon this story-- and I was so, because one of its points has been suggested to M. Sue by a tale of my own. Coupe en Dew has an ape remarkable for its size, strength, ferocity, and propensity to imitation. Wishing to commit a murder so cunningly that discovery would be impossible, the master of this animal teaches it to imitate the functions of a barber, and incites it to cut the throat of a child, under the idea that, when the murder is discovered, it will be considered the uninstigated deed of the ape. //On first seeing this, I felt apprehensive that some of my friends would accuse me of plagiarising from it my "Murders in the Rue Morgue." But I soon called to mind that this latter was first published in "Graham's Magazine" for April, 1841. Some years ago, "The Paris Charivari" copied my story with complimentary comments; objecting, however, to the Rue Morgue on the ground that no such street (to the Charivari's knowledge) existed in Paris. I do not wish, of course, to look upon M. Sue's adaptation of my property in any other light than that of a compliment. The similarity may have been entirely accidental”

§ (Belden) points out source of Poe’s Rue Morgue as Eugene Sue’s Mysteries of Paris, which Poe wrote about in 1846 Graham’s Magazine: “Coupe-en-Deux has an ape remarkable for its size, strength, ferocity, and propensity to imitation. Wishing to commit a murder so cunningly that its discovery would be impossible, the master of this animal teaches it to imitate the functions of a barber, and incites it to cut the throat of a child, under the idea that, when the murder is discovered, it will be considered the uninstigated deed of the ape”

§ Belden suggests that both Poe & Sue got story from anecdote which appeared in print somewhere between 1780 & 1820 called The Monkey Thur’d Barber, which may have derived from Sir Oran Haut-Ton of Peacock’s Melincourt

o Walsh argues Poe’s source for “Rue Morgue” probably Shrewsbury Chronicle, July 1834, report of an orangutan trained to climb buildings & rob apartments, being surprised & routed from a bedroom by a woman, reported by W. Waller in Notes & Queries, May 17, 1894

o in Vidocq’s Memoirs, Vidocq attacked by monkeys; also, there is an “ourang-outang” associate with “broken and shrill sounds”

o In London Poe sent to boarding school kept by Misses Dubourg, “Pauline Dubourg” name used as laundress, witness in Rue Morgue

o Enclosure: Engel: asserts that Murders follows outline of an 1838 story from Dublin University Magazine in which a murder occurs in an inaccessible room & is solved only when perpetrators try to repeat crime somewhere else

o Cuvier, mentioned by Dupin in story, describes Orangutan’s mimicry, large size, distinctive voice; Cuvier’s brother Frederick in “Description of an Ourang Outang” writes of an infant orangutan who copies its owner, a French naval officer, in many actions including breaking into a room from a “closet adjoining” (language used in story & Cuvier); Mitchell argues again Pollin’s claim that Poe did not use Cuvier by showing “hoarse” and “harsh” not incompatible; also shows variety of hair color for oragnutan’s do not conflict with Cuvier

o Poe may have seen an orangutan on exhibit in Philly in 1839

o Several 19th century periodical sources as contrary descriptions of orangutan’s pulling hair & becoming violent when attacked

o 1834 “Annual Register” entry includes “a ribbed-faced baboon” trained to commit robberies, in one case attacking a woman & then escaping through a window

o Moore argues Sir Walter Scott’s Count Robert of Paris & its use of an ourang-outang, Sylvan, as major figure “strikingly” like Poe’s orang-outang, includes escape from captivity, use of window to get in & out, terror of master’s whip

o In Poe’s story orangutan is sold to Jardin des Plantes, where in reality in 1836 a “resident orangutan” was “talk of Paris”

o General: (Mitchell) “overall, the correspondences between the imitative, murderous orangutan in Poe’s story and those in natural history and observational accounts support the idea that Poe’s image derived in no small part from information about actual apes”

o Background for “Rue Morgue”: (Silverman) “crime was much in the air, as its prevention became a pressing urban need. Following the establishment of the world’s first professional police force in London, twelve years before Poe’s story, American cities increased the number and pay of policemen and fostered scientific police work. The new and sensational ‘penny newspapers’ printed records of criminal trials and reported bloody suicides and murders. Writing a story much concerned with newspapers, Poe picked up many hints from such articles – and from the several items in past and current American periodicals concerning razor-wielding apes”

o Name sources: Silverman notes “Dubourg” “L’Espyanye” as containing Poe’s initials & almost Allan; Chantilly, cobbler turned actor, as echoing “Dan Dilly”, a name mockingly given to David Poe

o From an anecdote, letter from mr. john de Galliford, of chattanouga Tenn to NY Commerical advertiser: “I am drawn to you by your defense of Edgar A. Poe. I love him, though I met him but once. It was in September, 1845. I was sitting on a pile watching our bark that was moored to the pile. A quiet, neatly-dressed gentleman came up to me and asked me numberless questions in regard to our seafaring life. He was so lovable in his conversation that I never forgot him, and I prize the memory of those few hours of his sweet talk with me and hold it sacred to his memory. He could not have been a drinking man, for his looks did not show it. On my telling that I was a runaway boy from Kentucky, he took some scraps of paper from his pocket and took notes, saying that he could make a nice story of what I had told him. I took him aboard the bark and showed him a pet monkey I had brought from Natal. He ate a piece of biscuit and drank some cold coffee, and said he would come again and see me and get acquainted with my captain. This was years ago, and I am an old man, seventy-three years old, but I can remember, word for word, all that passed”

Fascinating!! It seems that both murder and apes were in the air. (and monkeys, too. If we have trouble remembering the difference, Poe may have too).

Listen up!

Bill will be here soon for The Mystery of Marie Roget which will open Oct.1.

Hello, and welcome to the discussion of The Mystery of Marie Roget. This is the second of the Dupin tales.

The discussion schedule is …

October 1 - 7 ~ The First Half

October 8 - 14 ~ The Second Half

I divided the discussion of the novella in order to maintain a particular sequence or method. Hopefully this will serve to prevent us from swinging back and forth through the story and avoid confusion.

Bill H

In my book, the first paragraph of the novella begins with the following sentence.

There are few persons, even among the calmest thinkers, who have not occasionally been startled...

The first paragraph in the second half of my book begins with this sentence

"A theory based on the qualities of an object, will prevent its being unfolded according to its objects;...

I hope this will serve as a guide.

Bill H

If you wish to read the story on line, please visit this website.

The Mystery of Marie Roget

Bill H

The following is a copy of the query letter that Poe sent to George Roberts of Notion Magazine:

George Roberts Notion Magazine Boston, Mass. June 4, 1842

My Dear Sir. It is just possible that you may have seen a tale of mine entitled 'The Murders in the Rue Morgue'and published, originally, in 'Grahams Magazine' for April, 1841. Its theme was the exercise of ingenunity in the detection of a murderer. I have just completed a similar article, which I shall entitle 'The Mystery of Marie Roget - a Sequel to the Murders in the Rue Morgue.'

The story is based upon the assassination of Mary Cecilia Rogers, which created so vast an excitement, some months ago, in New York. I have, however, handled my design in a manner altogether novel in literature. I have imagined a series of nearly exact coincidences occurring in Paris. A young grisette, one Marie Roget, had been murdered under pretence of showing how Dupin (the hero of The Rue Morgue) unravelled the mystery of Marie's assassination. I, in reality, enter into a very long and rigorous analysis of the New York tragedy. No point is omitted. I examine, each by each, the opinions and arguments of the press upon the subject, and show that this subject has been, hiterto, unapproached. In fact, I believe not only that I have demonstrated the fallacy of the general idea - that the girl was the victim of a gang of ruffians - but have indicated the assassin in a manner which will give renewed impetus to investigation.

My main object, nevertheless, as you will readily understand, is an analysis of the true principles which should direct inquiry in similar cases. From the nature of the subject. I feel convinced that the article will excite attention, and it has occurred to me that you would be willing to purchase it for the forthcoming Mammoth Notion. It will make 25 pages of Graham's Magazine; and, at the usual price, would be worth to me $100. For resons, however, which I need not specifiy, I am desirous of having this tale printed in Boston, and, if you like it, I will say $50. Will you please write me upon this point? - by return mail, if possible.

Yours very, truly, Edgar A. Poe

~ "Fatal Fasciantion"

I thought this letter very interesting. It is always nice to know that even famous writers such as Poe went through the same process of seeking out publishers just as writers today do. But to me one of the telling points of the letter was that Poe was willing to accept almost half of what he thought the 'article' was worth.

I have gotten about half-way thru' the 'Marie Roget' story, and will take care to go no further this week.

I find the whole idea of analyzing an actual case thru' a fictional version of it to be fascinating. And I hope to find out if the fictional conclusion did stir further investigation into the death of Mary Cecilia Rogers.

My first strong impression is that the subject of dissolution of drowned bodies was covered with more thoroughness than I really cared for. Yet in those days, it must have been so unusual an approach, and so shocking a subject, as to really grab the attention of readers. From Dupin's science to CSI...we've come a long way in the use of science against crime.

Babi

I was eager to read this tale in particular just because it was based on true events. I am also interested in what may or may not have happened with the real American case as a result of this tale.

Isn't it interesting how Poe is so very analytical and detailed in these stories and yet so very passionate and creative and, sometimes, horrifying? It's almost like two opposite ends of a spectrum or two different personalities.

If I understand correctly, if a person doesn't weigh much, the body will float to the top of the water. I wonder how many murderers know the science of water, the ability of gravity to sink a body or make a body surface. With my faulty reasoning, I had been thinking of water as the best place to get rid of a body.

Marni, like you I am amazed at the amount of detail Edgar Poe included in his stories. In those days how did he do his research? He certainly seemed to do a lot of thinking before putting pen to paper.

"The narrative is based upon the murder of Mary Cecilia Rogers, a young woman known popularly as "The Beautiful Cigar Girl," who disappeared on October 4, 1838 in New York. Only a few days later the newspapers announced her return. It was said she had eloped with a naval officer.

Three years later, on July 25, 1841, again she disappeared. Her body was found floating in the Hudson River three days later. The details surrounding the case suggested she was murdered. The death of this beautiful and well-known girl received national attention for weeks.

Months later, the inquest still ongoing, her fiance was found dead, an act of suicide. By his side a remorseful note and an empty bottle of poison were found.

Writing about this as a sequel to "The Murders in the Rue Morgue", Poet tried to solve the aforementioned enigma by creating a murder mystery. He situated the narrative in Paris using the details of the original tragedy.

Although there was intense media interest and immortalization of a sort by Poe, the crime remains one of the most puzzling unsolved murders of New York City." ~ Wikipedia

"New York, with its rapidly evolving urban culture and expanding population, was the scene of a number of well-known murder cases in the 19th century. The murder of the beautiful prostitute Ellen Jewett was widely reported in the developing penny press in the 1830s; the mysterious death of the "beautiful cigar girl" Mary Rogers a few years later caused an even greater public furor, and attracted the attention of Edgar Allan Poe, whose story "The Mystery of Marie Roget" was based on the case. Mary's death, like that of dressmaker Alice A Bowlsby is one of a number of "murders" that were most probably abortions gone awry.

Most noteworthy, perhaps, is how closely many of these events mirror contemporary issues concerning women, sexuality, and murder." ~ Brown University Library

Could the murder of Marie Roget also been an abortion gone awry? I found it interesting that the concerns of women in regards to adultery, abortion and contraception, domestic abuse, and illegitimacy haven't changed that much over the decades. But it is stories like Poe has written which have brought these facts to the forefront and thus bringing attention to such concerns.

BaBi, yes, I agree with your impression of the drowned bodies was being covered with a little bit too much thoroughness. I did learn a lot about drowning. But we can't forget that Poe is also a writer of horror stories. I suppose he just couldn't resist tweaking us a bit.

Laura, I did want to follow up on the real American case. I suppose I can find data about it somewhere on the Internet. .

Marnie,and Hats, Poe is so diversified in his writing. He authored poems, horror stories, and, of course, the Dupin tales. He has been acknowledged as literary genius. I can see why he has been labeled thus.

Bill H

I read the whole story a couple of weeks ago. I just was not impressed. I kept thinking Poe had cranked out a 'potboiler.'

To do it justice, I am going to go through it again in the next few days and see if I can't develop a better attitude about this story.

Juanita Millican

Scrawler

"Could the murder of Marie Roget also been an abortion gone awry?"

I was thinking the same way.

Bill H

Juanita

"and see if I can't develop a better attitude about this story."

I know what you mean. I'm hoping this discussion will bring out the best in this story.

Bill H

Why would Marie Roget get an abortion? If she was pregnant. that is. Obviously, her naval officer wasn't the father; she hadn't seen him in three years. Meanwhile, she has a fiance and is to be married. If necessary, they can be married sooner than originally planned. There would be no reason to endanger her life by having an abortion.

It did occur to me that Marie's disappearance three years ago might have been for the purpose of having a baby, fathered by her lover, and then quietly returning home. On the return of her Naval Lieutenant from duty, she may have met him in the expectation that he would now marry her. Pure speculation, of course.

Babi

With Murder in the Rue Morgue I am now ready to read this story.In factI have started it and just popped in to see when I should stop IfI read the whole thing at once it is too easy to get ahead of the discussion One observation I will make like the Rue Morgue story one has to be grateful to a life long love of the dictionary. since Poe seems to be determined to use as many words as possible ..I find myself wanting to skip over the so many words and get to the heart of the story .>am I alone in this ? anna back to the story CUL

Poe certainly has it in for the Navy! A sailor brought the orangutan to Paris in "Rue Morgue" and now we may have a naval officer villain! Maybe it's because Poe was in the Army - that old Army/Navy rivalry. Hahaha. Or maybe he had trouble with sailors in Baltimore or somewhere?

Automatically, this second time, the mother felt fear about Marie Roget's disappearance. Why did she become anxious so quickly? Did the mother know whom Marie Roget was seeing?

How do we know it's a man who murdered Marie Roget? Is it possible the murderer is a jealous ex-lover? Women, when angry, can become strong. The crime seems very brutal. Doesn't that mean the murderer was definitely someone known by Marie Roget? Maybe Marie Roget had been stalked all along and never told anybody. Maybe she did voice fears to her mother.

Scrawler, thank you so much for the factual information surrounding the real case --- still unsolved but with abortion suspected. Hmmm…Abortion would have not crossed my mind, but does make sense. Abortion was illegal, and with the rudimentary medical practices of the time, probably very risky and often deadly. Then the practitioner would have the body disposed of.

I see your point, Babi, questioning why Marie would need an abortion. Do we know explicitly from the story that she had not been dating while her sailor boyfriend way away?

Yes, Poe did write a wide variety of pieces. For example, The Gold Bug is a completely different type story, set in the south. It is a mystery, but more of a treasure hunt. I loved it. It is my favorite Poe story (so far, anyway).

That abortion premise is interesting. I didn't think about the illegality and the fear of a doctor who might have made a murderous mistake.

Babi, like you, I do wonder why Marie Roget would have an abortion. I have this feeling of wanting to deal with the abortion issue although it might not fit the puzzle.

In this day and age, we concern ourselves with the character of the person murdered, especially women, does it matter that Marie Roget was a cigarette girl? I have never thought it fair to spend more time destroying a victim's character than getting on with solving the case.

Thank you Scrawler for the abortion theory.

I find it interesting that the parasol, gloves, and other clothing are left untouched in the area of the crime. The trampled grass proves there was a struggle. I am puzzled about the clothing. Even a monogrammed handkerchief with Marie Roget's name on it is left in the area untouched.

Mary Rogers was described as the "beautiful cigar girl." So in the course of her job she would have met a lot of men. Anyone of these men could have taken advantage of her and so the abortion theory does hold up to my way of thinking.

In the story Poe made Marie Roget a perfume sales lady. She too would have been exposed to many men. Perhaps the Naval officer is nothing more than a "red herring."

"The innovation here is that the story is told through newspaper cuttings which, although attributed to French papers, are similar to those in the New York press. The cuttings are interspersed with the comments and conclusions of Dupin, who relies for his evidence wholly upon this sometimes contradictory press information, so that this story is the first piece of 'armchair detection', the precursor of all those tales in which the detective solves a crime simply by analysis of and deduction from the material with which he is presented." ~ Bloody Murder

Does it seem logical that Dupin could have solved the crime simply through deduction from some 'contradictory press information'? If the press information was in error, how could Dupin solve such a crime? Or was Dupin's logical mind such that he could see through such mistakes? I found this to be one of the must interesting aspects of this story.

"After spending just one year at the University of Virginia, Poe had accumulated gambling debts and enlisted in the U.S. Army using the name Edgar A. Perry. Two years later he secured a discharge from the army and went to Baltimore, where he lived with his aunt. Poe went to the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, but was dismissed in 1831 for deliberate neglect of duty." ~ Answers.com

It would seem to me that Poe had no use for authority figures and so making the Naval officer a villain would point in that direction.

Poe did seem to be quite the young rebel, didn't he?

Anna, No, you are not alone with your thinking of Poe's wordiness. I think he can be a bit too redundant at times. For me it gets a bit weariesome hearing the many characters repeat the same thing. I I'm sure all he had to say was "This point was brought out by X-numbers of others.

Bill H

In his introduction of The Murders of Marie Roget, Poe writes the following:

by Edgar Allan Poe

There are ideal series of events which run parallel with the real ones. They rarely coincide. Men and circumstances generally modify the ideal train of events, so that it seems imperfect, and its consequences are equally imperfect. Thus with the Reformation; instead of Protestantism came Lutheranism. Novalis. Moralische Ansichten

Well, he lost me here. I must admit I don't understand this. I do understand what he meant with the Reformation; instead of Protestantism came Lutheranism, etc. However, it is the first two sentences I don't get. If an ideal series of event run parallel with real ones, what does he mean "They rarely coincide?"

Bill H

"The anticipations of the shopkeeper were realized, and his rooms soon became notorious through the charms of the sprightly grisette. She had been in his employ about a year, when her admirers were thrown into confusion by her sudden disappearance from the shop."

From the opening paragraphs of the story, I got the idea that Marie played a little too "fast and lose." Perhaps one of her several admirers got a little too carried away by her charms.

I'm I alone in my thinking?

This is why, like some others, I thought of the abortion theory.

Bill H

"Persons of interest" might have been Monsieur le Blanc,one or more of his customers among "the desperate adventurers infesting that neighborhood", the suitor St. Eustache, M. Beauvais, the "young man of dark complexion", and of course the "blackguards from the city", and the ever-popular "gang of miscreants". Anybody else?

BILL, perhaps Poe's idea of the 'ideal series of events' is on the order of 'in a perfect world...". In a perfect world such and such would happen, but in the real world, it rarely, if ever, happens that way.

Marie Roget did have a fiance'. I suppose she could also have been playing 'fast and loose', as Bill puts it. On the whole, tho', if she was pregnant, wouldn't the fiance' be the most likely father?

The personal items left on the bank of the river intrigued me also. If the murderer(s) did not wish her found, why indicate so clearly she was probably in the river? Those readily identifiable personal items appear to me deliberately planted, and I have to wonder why.

Babi

is this story online - I have not yet found it ellen c

You are right there It would seem they were planted and expected to be found Ellen I will check and see just where I found it and I copied it to a CD and am reading it from that You could also copy it to a disk I did'nt want to print it out since I already throw away so much and it uses my ink...

BILL where does the first part end Last time you gave us a line I dont know where to stop...and I dont want to get ahead of the discussion and know the answer before everyone else does since it colors my comments

PS I wonder if writers were paid BY THE WORD ? then ...that would explain all of them using more words than necessary to say something...anna

"The Mystery of Marie Roget" takes its flavour from the fact that it followed so closely an actual murder case. 'I have handled my design in a manner altogether novel in literature,' Poe wrote on 4 June 1842. 'I believe not only that I have demostrated the fallacy of the general idea - that the girl was the victim of a gang of ruffians - but have indicated the assassin in a manner which will give renewed impetus to investigators.'

Three years after the story's appearance he claimed in a footnote that 'the confessions of two persons...confirmed, in full, not only the general conclusion, but absolutely all the chief hypothetical details by which that conclusion was attained'.

With one of two exceptions critics have taken this statement as being correct, and have said that Poe 'solved' the mystery. In fact he cheated by changing the newspaper stories when he needed to do so, and the case remained unsolved, with the balance of probability being that Mary Rogers died accidentally following an abortion." ~ "Bloody Murder"

Did Poe cheat or did he simply change the facts of the real case so that his own story would hold together better? Poe was writing a murder mystery, so there had to be a murderer to go with the murder. But in the real story no such conclusions could be made and the possible reason that Mary Rogers was accidently killed after a botched abortion doesn't fit into Poe's theory. So what facts did Poe change in order to stay within the confines of his story? One confession came from Marie's fiance, but who the other confession from?

Ellen, Her is a link to the online reading of The Mystery of Marie Roget.

http://tanaya.net/Books/mystery/

Bill H

Anna, the last first line of the last paragraph in the first half of my book reads as:

In respect to the insinuations leveled at Beauvis, you will be you will be willing to dismiss them in a breath.

The first line in the first paragraph in my book reads as:

"A theory based on the qualities of an object, will prevent its being unfolded according to its objects;…

Bill H

BaBi, that sounds like a reasonable explanation. Too bad we don't have a perfect world.

Bill H

I, too, find Poe’s writing to be wordy, especially in this story. In general, I find literature from the 19th century to be wordy. I think people were more wordy in their speech then. Also, people had less reading material, less entertainment available to them overall, and were willing to spend time on a story like this.

Oh, Laura, I agree. And I can't help but think that it was a positive that folks spent time formulating thoughts and expressing themselves - both in speech and on paper, rather than the passive absorption of information from the media - tv, especially.

In our discussion of Matthew Pearl's book, The Poe Shadow, we spoke of the Murder of Marie Roget story and the author referred us to some chapters which are not included in his book. He refers to them as his "Secret Chapters."

Through Poe's last night before he died he kept repeating the name "Reynolds." There are a number of theories as to the identity of this mysterious "Reynolds. In the course of his research, Matthew discovered that Poe knew John Anderson, the tobacconist for whom Mary Rodgers, [Marie Roget] had worked as a cigar girl. And it is recorded there was a man named "Reynolds" who was an acquaintance of John Anderson.

Since I'll be away next week when you reach the denouement of this story, I'll leave Matthew Pearl's Secret Chapters on the Marie Roget story for you to ratiocinate AFTER you have read Poe's story in its entirety. - "Secret Chapters 3" - (The Reynolds Question)

"Poe was a master of story structure. Here is his advice to a writer: "Nothing is more clear than that every plot worth the name must be elaborated to its denouement before anything be attempted with the pen. It is only with the denouement constantly in view that we can give a plot its indepensable air of consequence or causation, by making the incidents, and especially the tone at all points tend to the development of the intention." ~ "Mystery Writer's Handbook"

Take away the verbosity of Poe's time [something we have all been talking about] and what do you have? His advise to the writer is simple and clear: Plan your story before you write it.

There are some authors such as Stephen King who never really know how their novels will end when they start their novels. But when Poe wrote he planned his stories from beginning to end. We can see that every detail was thought about before as Poe says "anything is attempted with the pen".

One aspect that I have always admired of Poe was his use of tone and mood to allow our own emotions to carry us forward. I personally prefer his horror stories over some of his other stories where he uses the emotion of terror at its best. I think what draws us to stories such as "Mystery of Marie Roget" is that the story is more about the inventiveness of Poe than anything else.

Joan, thank you for the link . I have printed out both the notes from The Murders in the Rue Morgue and The Reynolds Question, and have placed them inside my edition of these stories. They are a welcome component for the novella's. I hope he will post notes on The Purloined Letter as well. Thanks again.

Bill H

"The mystery story began with Edgar Allan Poe and his "Murders in the Rue Morgue," followed by "The Mystery of Marie Roget." Here, for the first time, we have a tale not just of crime, but of a detective solving that crime. That is the essence of the mystery story. There is a crime and an effort is made to solve the crime. That effort - detection - is what the mystery story is all about.

Poe not only introduced detection into fiction, he introduced the memorable detective - C. Auguste Dupin, who solves the murders in the Rue Morgue and the mystery of Marie Roget, not only amazes us by his deductive ability, he presents us with a unique life-style, living by night, sleeping by day, existing almost totally out of sight of the sun."~ "How to Write Mysteries"

To me the character not only reflects the portrait of a "great" detective, but his unique life-style reflected what Poe thought about "crime" and those who not only committed crimes but also solved it. They were both considered the "under-belly" of society. Living in the shadows of reality. In Poe's skillful hands the mystery story became more than just a mystery, it became a way of life and he raised the detective to a higher level. At last there was someone like a great detective with skills to take on the criminals at their own game.

Speaking of Dupin's character, I hardly knew what to make of this little vignette. I was divided between amusement, envy at his being able to get away with it, and irritation at his behavior. Here is Dupin, as the Prefect explains his own views:

"Dupin, sitting steadily in his accustomed arm-chair, was the embodiment of respectful attention. He wore spectacles, during the whole interview; and an ocasional glance beneath their green glasses sufficed to convince me that he slept not the less soundly, because silently, throughout the seven or eight leaden-footed hours.....".

The gall of the man! And haven't there been occasions when I wish I could have done the same and gotten away with it. Oh, yeah!

Babi

Tomorrow, October, 8th, begins the second half of our discussion. The novella in its entirety can be discussed and we can express our views on the complete story.

Bill H

This is a description of Mary Rogers: "On the afternoon of July 28, 1841, a group of men were strolling along the Hudson River's New Jersey shore line near an area of Hoboken called Sybil's Cave -- a popular woodsy area and that was close enough to New York City to make a convenient but brief respite from the daily rigors of the metropolis.

Looking out across the river one of the men spotted what appeared to be clothing floating in the water. Racing to a nearby dock, the men grabbed a boat and rowed quickly to the bobbing objects. What they found was the body of a young woman. They made several attempts to fish out the body, but eventually they tied a rope under the dead woman's chin and rowed toward shore." ~ "Crime library"

Even though New York was a rapidly evolving urban culture do you think this crime against a woman was unusual for its time or was it a result of an expanding population and a product of the times much like some crimes are a result of today's society?

p>The first paragraph in the second half of my book begins with this sentence

"A theory based on the qualities of an object, will prevent its being unfolded according to its objects;...

I hope this will serve as a guide.

Bill H

Poe readily admits that this story was based on the murder of Mary Rogers. I found this at B&N and thought I would pass it along.

From the Publisher

"In the summer of 1841, Mary Rogers, a young woman known popularly as "The Beautiful Cigar Girl," disappeared without a trace from her New York City boarding house. Three days later, her body, badly bruised and waterlogged, was found floating in the shallow waters of the Hudson River just a few feet from the Jersey shore. A long celebrated unsolved mystery, this case became the subject of endless commentary and speculation in the new penny press and the popular novel, and received its most famous exposition in Edgar Allan Poe's pioneering detective story "The Mystery of Marie Roget..."

I don't wish to distract you from our story but if you wish to read a bit more of this please use the link below

The Mysterious Death of Mary Rogers

scroll down for the rest of "From the Publisher."

Bill H

i've posted this just for seniornet! in case it's at all helpful... this is a pdf file, and at p. ix you can read my introduction which includes background information and analysis on all three dupin tales (i'll probably take this link down at some point)

http://matthewpearl.com/assets/final.draft.murders.pdf

Matthew, how nice of you to take the time. Since I was in the "The Poe Shadow" discussion, naturally I had to include this series as well. I noticed that Dupin in the 'Marie Roget' story makes the same point about surrounding events that Duponte makes in "The Poe Shadow";ie, that the collateral or circumstantial events are more relevant than one might think.

The statement: The history of human knowledge has so uninterruptedly shown that to collateral, or incidental, or accidental events we are indebted for the most numerous and most valuable discoveries...". Indeed! Think of penicillin and DNA, for starters.

And I see that newspapers were much the same then and now. "We should bear in mind that, in general, it is the object of our newspapers rather to create a sensation - to make a point - than to further the cause of truth." Too true. So, where does one go to learn the truth?

Babi

Dupin puts forth the following thought he imagined Marie may be thinking before she left.

"—it would not be my policy to bid St. Eustache call; for, calling, he will be sure to ascertain that I have played him false—a fact of which I might keep him for ever in ignorance, by leaving home without notifying him of my intention, by returning before dark, and by then stating that I had been to visit my aunt in the Rue des Dromes. But, as it is my design never to return—or not for some weeks—or not until certain concealments are effected—the gaining of time is the only point about which I need give myself any concern...."

So, this gives acceptance of the belief some of us held that Marie may have been with child.

If Dupin's theory of Marie's thoughts ring true, what a mental conflict this poor girl suffered as too keeping the baby or not.

The underlining is mine. However, this is an exact quote from the story and mistakes in spelling are not mine.

Bill H

Matthew, thank you for the link, however, I'm having trouble opening it. Perhaps it is my computer.

Bill H

"The fact that the murder of Mary Rogers is still remembered today has much to do with Edgar Allan Poe. Poe biographer Jeffrey Meyers notes that in the second of his mystery stories involving the detective Chevalier C. Auguste Dupin, Poe neatly transported Mary and the surrounding characters from New York City to Paris and presented Dupin's solution to the crime in "The Mystery of Marie Roget" via three magazine installments. Dupin/Poe believed the murder to have been a naval officer of dark complexion who had previously attempted to elope with Mary/Marie (thus explaining her first disappearance in 1838) and who killed her the second time she ran off with him. Loss's deathbed confession came to light before the last installment had been published, but Poe managed to hint at a bungled abortion in the final episode, and later added footnotes that further brought his fictional story into line with the known facts of Mary's case." ~ "Crimelibrary"

"A year before his death Poe, who had said in the story that "it was at once evident that murder had been committed", admitted this in a letter: 'The "naval officer" who committed the murder (rather the accidental death arising from an attempt at abortion) confessed it...but, for the sake of relatives. I must not speak further.' The naval officer existed, although we have only Poe's word for his confession: but the point really is that the story was based upon the idea that Mary Rogers had been murdered, and if she died accidently the logic of the argument is destroyed." ~ "Bloody Murders"

So what do you think did the "naval officer" commit the murder? I think we would have to go to motive. What motive would the naval officer have for killing Marie?

If we assume that Marie indeed was going to elope with the naval officer, why than did she become engaged? Or was she already engaged to another man when she met the "naval officer." I would imagine that any man who found out that the woman he supposedly loved was with child from another man would be apt to be so enraged as to commit murder. But if she was pregnant, who was the father?

Matthew Pearl, thank you for the link.

I did revisit 'Marie Roget'. I still think lacks the appeal of the other two Dupin tales. I notice it is more than twice as long as them. I can't help thinking it would have been more enjoyable if less than half as long.

I think Poe not only gave us the detective story, but provided the pattern for several classic plots. 'Murders in the Rue Morgue' is the locked room story. Marie Roget is the news story done up as fiction, as we see regularly in the 'Law and Order' television series. Since we have yet to discuss 'The Purloined Letter,' I will not mention what type I think it is.

Juanita Millican

"Raymond Paul states that Mary's fiance Daniel Payne had, according to the young man's brother, plunged into a deep grief after his sweetheart's death. The already alcoholic corkcutter drank even more heavily and his brother even feared that Daniel was slowly going insane.

In the weeks following Mary's death, Payne had endured the initial suspicion in her death and had to undergo the trauma of identifying her remains in a second inquest. It was also reported that Payne had been visited by Mary's ghost.

On the morning of October 7, 1841, Payne left his New York City lodgings and proceeded to drink excessively at various bars in his neighborhood, stopping briefly in a store to purchase a small bottle of the poison laudanum.

He caught an afternoon ferry for Hoboken, and his first stop in New Jersey was Loss's tavern. There he drank brandy. Sitting next to the thicket where his lost love's clothing was found, he took out a piece of paper and wrote: "To the World here I am on misspent life." Putting the note into his pocket, he then quickly consumed the poison and staggered off.

The laudanum took some time to work painfully through Payne's system. He finally stumbled back to the place where Mary's body had been brought ashore. He lay down on a bench there and died.

His suicide brought the Mary Rogers tale back to the headlines, although his crytic note would not be seen as an admission of guilt -- his iron-tight alibi and numerous witnesses for the infamous Sunday remained above questioning -- and he was generally viewed as a love-struck romantic who could not bear life without his Mary." ~ Crimelibrary.

But what if Mary Rogers like Marie Roguet wasn't killed on the Sunday that her fiance had an alibi. What if the note he wrote was not the note of a love-sick fiance but the admission of guilt for Mary/Marie's death?

Poe brought forth in his story that the killer might possibly be the fiance. He already knew in his mind that to his way of thinking that the killer was the naval officer, but he used the fiance as a "red herring" to throw us off the tracks.

Juanita, a very good deduction on your part linking the stories with the "locked room type," and the news story done up as fiction. I believe Poe could have written more stories along this line with today's missing women. In particular, I'm thinking of the woman that went missing while on a high school vacation last year. Was it in Aruba? I'm not sure if that was the country.

From USA TODAY

"Ever since Chandra Levy's disappearance in Washington, D.C., in 2001, network morning shows have fixated on cases of missing women.
Levy, Elizabeth Smart, Laci Peterson, Dru Sjodin, Carly Brucia — the names are familiar to any morning-TV viewer. The cases of Levy, Peterson and Brucia ended tragically when their bodies were found. Sjodin is still missing. Smart was found alive nine months after her kidnapping in 2002"

Bill H

I found Dupin's speculations about what Marie Roget might have been thinking when she left home, to be the weakest part of his exposition. She could have been thinking anything in the world! He is assuming his theory is correct, and working back from there to sheer what if's. A sort of, 'if I am correct, her request to her fiance to come fetch her could be explained by such and such reasoning'. "If" and "could be" are not exactly scientific deduction.

Babi

I found myself very dissatisfied with this particular Poe tale. I just didn’t believe the conclusions drawn by Dupin in this story. While plausible, I found the explanation of the circumstances surrounding the death of Marie did not conclusively lead to the solution of the crime that Dupin proposed. I was surprised by my feelings about this story because it was the one of the three Dupin tales that I most looked forward to reading because it was based on a true story. I just didn’t buy it --- too many unanswered questions, as evident by the number of questions several of you are posing.

"Raymond Paul presented in the early 1970s his theory that Daniel Payne did indeed murder Mary, but not on the Sunday she disappeared (for which Payne had a solid alibi), but on the following Tuesday. Paul argues that Mary did go to Loss's for an abortion on that Sunday and survived it, then stayed to recuperate for a couple of days at the inn. While Mary's family and friends searched for her the next day, Payne couldn't admit to where she really was so he stalled for time and pretended to look for her, knowing that he was to meet Mary on Tuesday and bring her home. Paul points out that Payne's own statements show him that she was breaking her engagement to him, and Payne strangled her in a fit of anger, dumped her in the river and later retrieved some of Mary's clothes (including the second pair of gloves) and planted them in the thicket near Loss's inn to add credence to the "gang" theory. Paul's main evidence consists of the fact that when Mary's body was taken ashore on Wednesday afternoon the body was, according to the coroner's report, in a state of rigor mortis that clearly indicated to Paul that she had not been murdered on Sunday -- because rigor mortis passes within 24 hours of death and, Paul contends, the Hudson's waters in July would not have been cold enough to slow down the rigor mortis process. Paul thus concludes that the stiffness of her body proves that she was killed no earlier than Tuesday, when Payne was known to have been in the area." ~ Crimelibrary

So did Poe take anything from this theory for his own tale? Poe indicated that it was the "naval officer" who committed the murder (rather than the accidental death arising from an attempt at abortion) confessed it..., but, for the sake of relatives, must not speak further." But whose relatives was Poe speaking of Marie's? the naval officer? or were they the fiancée's relatives?

How much do we really know about the naval officer other than he was going to elope with Marie?

On the other hand the fiancée was very distraught at the death of Marie and indeed was very much in love with her. If he had paid for Marie's abortion [which cost between 10 and 100 dollars in the 1840s] and than she broke off her engagement to him than it is possible that in a fit of anger he killed her. To me of all the characters it was the fiancee that had the motive to do the crime. Who else would have a possible motive?

SCRAWLER, thanks for giving us Raymomd Paul's theory. It sounds quite reasonable to me. Like LAURA, I'm having trouble with this Dupin story. It's too contrived, for one. And it is difficult to hold the readers interest when almost the entire 'story' consists of Dupin explaining his reasoning at great length. (Yawn)

Babi

An abortionist performing an illegal operation would certainly have a motive for dumping a body in the river if the patient died from the operation. I remember talking to a sister about this when we first read this tale and we both thought that in that time it was so dangerous that "Marie" could have died from the abortion. There was no autopsy or forensic science at that time to cast light on this subject. Faith

"Interest waned in the Mary Roger's murder after Payne's suicide until October 1842, when apparently by accident, innkeeper Frederica Loss was shot by one of her sons. For more than two weeks she lay on her deathbed, sometimes incoherent and sometimes shouting that the ghost of a young woman floated near her bed (Mary's ghost was also rumored to have visited former employer John Anderson in his final years). In her last moments according to various newspapers, Loss confessed that Mary Rogers and a young "dark and tall" doctor arrived at her inn on that fatal Sunday and an abortion was performed, from which Mary died of complications. Her body was "taken at night by the son of Loss and sunk in the river where it would be found. Mary's clothes were first...sunk in a pond on the land of a neighbor; but it was afterwards thought that they were not safe there, and they were accordingly taken and scattered through the woods as they were found."

"Some questioned the genuiness of this alleged deathbed declaration, as it contradicted some of the known facts of the case particularly the thumb and finger marks the coroner had found around Mary's neck and the same coroner's assertion that Mary had "been a person of chastity" but the story would become the generally accepted one, partly because of a famous tale by Edgar Allen Poe." ~ Crimelibrary

What I've been wondering is why Poe never used the "ghosts" that appeared to various persons as part of his story. "Ghosts" were very much the "IN" thing in the nineteen century thanks in part to Dickens tale and the tales of not only Poe but also Hawthorne. So if they were so popular why didn't Poe use them? Perhaps, it was because his story revolved around Dupin and his deduction reasoning. I don't seriously think that a man like Dupin would undoubtly be "IN" to ghosts and so it didn't fit with his image. But I think it would have certainly added to the story.

I also wondered why Poe didn't make the "doctor" his villain. After all he was "dark and tall" the same description given to the naval officer. But than in the nineteenth century doctors even when they performed abortions where regarded as part of high society and their reputations were not to be trifled with. I would have hoped that Poe by portraying doctors who performed abortions as villainous could have guided his women readers away from having abortions.

I'm not sure where I read it but I remember that the majority of readers that Poe wrote for were women readers who were of high society and so had the time to read such magazines as "Lady's Companion" and "Godley's" where many of Poe's stories and poems first appeared as serials.

Scrawler the finger print type bruises on the body could have been from an assistants attempt to keep Mary from screaming while the abortion was performed. I have had children and I know that the screams really annoy the attending doctors and nurses so in my case with my first one they just knocked me out with gas (sixty years ago).So it would not amaze me if some one squeezed her neck as she covered her mouth to silence screams. Faith

I find myself agreeing with LauraD and BaBi. The conclusion of the story did not satisfy me. I'm still rereading the story to find conclusive confirmation to the theory Dupin puts forth.

Bill H

I was really looking forward to reading this story but found it very confusing and disappointing and far too much theorising.

"Historian Amy Gilman Srebnick states that Mary's death came at a perfect time for the new "penny press" newspapers, which were brought by both the city's upper classes and common people. The story's lurid details sold countless papers, and Srebnick says that the editors eagerly reported (or imaginatively invented) clues and suspects. The various newspapers competed to cover a story that they had largely created -- theorizing about the case, accusing various men with committing the deed, whipping the public into a panic, and calling for more action by police and other government officials.

Almost immediately after Mary's body was found, various newspapers cast suspicion on Daniel Payne -- and wondered about the veracity of the official statements he had given to police about his alleged visit with his brother and his appearance at restaurants and bars on the day Mary vanished. Payne quickly brought in sworn affidavits from witnesses of his whereabouts to the office of "The New York Times" and "Evening Star", who then pronounced that the documents proved that Payne "stands exonerated from even a shadow of suspicion." ~ Crimelibrary

The foremost question that this brings to mind is what is the responsibility of the editors of these newspapers? Is it to sell newspapers or to present the facts of the case as they are and not embellish on them or create them? And now since we understand that the newspaper articles might indeed have false accounts, how than can Dupin who based his conclusion on said articles be correct in his assumptions? This may be one reason that the story itself doesn't ring true.

If the facts are under suspicion than the results can not be correct.

Your discussion reflects the broad consensus about the second Dupin tale being the most difficult to appreciate -- though many mystery writers choose it as their favorite of the three. Don't worry, The Purloined Letter, is much more reader friendly! Still, Poe's choice to try to solve an unsolved case in fiction was an important one. Here are my thoughts as stated in my preface to the Modern Library edition: ----------------------------------------------------

For the second tale, “The Mystery of Marie Roget,” Poe daringly chooses a subject for Dupin to examine for which justice was unattainable, or at best a long shot: a real-life murder that was (and still is) unsolved. The case would have been known to all of Poe’s readers in 1842: the summer before, the body of Mary Rogers, a twenty-year old “cigar-girl” whose beauty brought loyal customers to John Anderson’s New York City tobacco store, was found floating in the Hudson River. The crime presented a natural match for Poe’s Dupin series, where each story revolves around victimized females and the accompanying attempts to restore order (this stands in contrast to Poe tales such as “The Fall of the House of Usher” or “Berenice,” where the loss of the female signals full and final disintegration).

Poe transplants the details of the Mary Rogers case to Dupin’s Paris, gallicizing the victim’s name as “Marie Roget” and adjusting other characters and locales. Poe was not the first or last writer to move a sensational contemporary event to a different period or locale to provide distance or freshness in the retelling. Poe had done so a few years earlier in his unfinished play Politian, reimagining a notorious Kentucky love triangle as an ancient Roman tragedy.

But “The Mystery of Marie Roget” chooses a radical and very peculiar narrative strategy: self-awareness. “I have handled the design in a very singular and entirely novel manner,” Poe wrote to Baltimore magazine editor Joseph Snodgrass. “I imagine a series of nearly exact coincidences occurring in Paris.” The narrator of the story, to be more precise, speaks of the Mary Rogers murder as a separate event from that of Marie Roget, is aware of both, and in fact implies that the fictional atrocity occurred first. The existence of the two distinct branches of events, the distinct murder victims Rogers and Roget, and the use of near-verbatim excerpts from New York newspapers presented as articles about events in Paris, stirs questions about coincidence, probability and the boundary between fiction and history. The narrator bridges the parallel worlds through a running subnarrative on the actual Mary Rogers case.

Poe worked as an editor for magazines for most of his career, including the period between 1841 and 1844 when he wrote the three Dupin tales. In his novel The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym, Poe had playfully represented two distinct but overlapping levels of narrative authority – the narrator as the writer, and “Poe” as the editor, who sometimes meddles with the writer and reader. “Mr. Poe,” the editor from Pym, also makes his presence known in “Marie Roget” as a separate entity from the narrator. Indeed, the narrator and his editor seem to disagree about the very nature of the story. While the narrator strongly denies that Dupin’s analysis of Marie Roget’s murder could be extended to resolve the corresponding series of events related to Mary Rogers, the story’s footnotes (presumably from “Poe” the editor) suggest the opposite, that “all argument founded upon the fiction is applicable to the truth,” and that “the investigation of the truth was the object” of the fiction. We are even told that new facts that had come to light in the Mary Rogers case have confirmed “not only the general conclusion” of “The Mystery of Marie Roget,” “but absolutely all the chief hypothetical details by which that conclusion was attained.” Poe himself maintained the position. “I really believe,” he wrote to Snodgrass, “not only that I have demonstrated the falsity of the idea that the girl was the victim of a gang, but have indicated the assassin” (Poe’s emphasis).

Poe’s contention about cracking the Mary Rogers case was misleading, and in fact Poe cleverly revised “Marie Roget” over time to keep up with developing facts in the real case. This hasn’t stopped generations of Poe readers from believing Poe – and Dupin. In the story, Dupin settles on a sailor as a culprit. One London critic in Poe’s day, after discussing “The Mystery of Marie Roget,” leaps to the real case by noting that “to us at least the only mystery in the matter now is, – why was not the ‘dark sailor’ apprehended?” Dupin has outdone himself this time, finding a real-life murderer. Or has he? Is he part of our world, someone we might meet in the street as Alexandre Dumas imagined, or is he entirely detached from our reality? Dupin’s presence falls somewhere between steady and shifty.

-------------

In 1891, forty-two years after Poe’s death, came the Dupin trilogy’s strangest cameo in the court system. John Anderson was the owner of the New York cigar shop that employed Mary Rogers, and the basis for the character of perfumery-proprietor Monsieur Le Blanc in “Marie Rogers.” When Anderson died, his will was contested in the New York courts by one of his children. At one point in the trial, a startling suggestion was raised: it was said that at the time of the Mary Rogers case, the wealthy Anderson actually paid Edgar Allan Poe $5,000 to write “The Mystery of Marie Roget” as a means of diverting attention away from Anderson, who was then a suspect in the beautiful girl’s murder. (Compare this supposed $5,000 to the actual $56 Poe was paid for the publication rights to “The Murders in the Rue Morgue”!) The idea conjures up an opposite to the Dupin some readers imagined proved the guilt of the real murderer of Mary Rogers, this one a shadowy and duplicitous double agent who is in fact covering up the crime. To be sure, the Anderson character in “The Mystery of Marie Roget” does come off conspicuously unscathed. Even the French name Poe chose, Le Blanc, is as angelic as the Poe-like character “Le Bon” who is exonerated in “Rue Morgue.” Had Dupin’s analysis been bought off? We cannot help but think of the “liberal proposition” offered by the Prefect in “Marie Roget,” which Dupin “accepted at once.” The idea of that payment to Dupin echoing a real-life bribe to Poe seems on its face far-fetched (though less so than one writer’s later suggestion that Poe himself was the “swarthy” gentleman who murdered Mary Rogers).

Still, there is some credible indication that Poe was acquainted with and even socialized with the tobacconist. A journalist recorded an account from witnesses of a dinner that occurred around the year 1844 where Anderson hosted Poe along with writer William Ross Wallace in New York:

“It appears that Poe and Wallace got into a discussion about the Mary Rogers case, and almost came to blows while at the table, Poe seizing a carving-knife to defend himself… It was not till several years later when, happening to meet Wallace, I asked him if he remembered the incident, and he said that he did very distinctly… What made it worse was that there was a too apparent inclination of the part of the shopkeeper [Anderson] to get himself and his business advertised by the Mary Rogers affair, and Poe resented this in the true Southern style.”

Unfortunately, we do not have enough information to know exactly what Poe and Wallace might have been arguing about or to judge the credibility of the hearsay reporting. To whatever extent we believe these accounts, we observe Poe personally impassioned (even defensively so) over the Mary Rogers case and John Anderson attempting to manipulate the publicity of the murder for his own benefit... these are unique glimpses of C. Auguste Dupin’s fictional exploits sliding across real and literary boundaries and challenging both.

A fascinating piece of information, MATTHEW. Whatever Anderson's motives, whether that of a guilty man or merely an opportunistic one, he comes across as a decidedly unpleasant fellow.

Babi

"William Cullen Bryant's "New York Evening Post" went further and named a certain James Finnegan, "a rowdy of confirmed rascality," as part of the gang involved in the murder and said that he was seen wearing "a ring which is said to have been...one belonging to Mary Rogers." Nothing came of the Finnegan story, and the ring detail was probably invented, but the "Post" undoubtedly sold a few more papers.

Taking a different approach, Benjamin H. Day's "Evening Tattler" questioned whether Mary was dead at all. Day questioned Crommelin's ability identification of the body as Mary's considering its decomposed state, and also stated that a body thrown into the Hudson on a Sunday would not have risen by the following Wednesday, but would have taken "six to ten days for sufficient decomposition to take place to bring them to the top of the water," a scientific "fact" that was later proved inaccurate.

The newspapers reported on possible leads, the arrests and subsequent releases of suspects, and other aspects of the Mary Rogers case for several weeks, although by mid-August, with no new concrete information to report, the story began to fade.

It would be revived almost immediately, however, by the dubious "discovery" of the site of Mary Rogers' murder." ~ Crime library

It would seem that there were just as many variations on what happened than there were newspaper accounts. But in the end the real real reason for keeping the story alive was not to solve the murder, but rather to sell newspapers.

What than was so special about Poe's story that we still read the tale today. To me it wasn't the fact that he told his tale using a real crime as part of the format, but it was that he took a character and raised him above anything that had been seen before. In the 1800s detectives and even police were considered not far from the criminals they were trying to chase.

The fact is that in some American towns during the early 1800s there were not any police at all. Scotland Yard was still years away from being established and the police in France were ex-criminals themselves. So to me the ingenious of Poe was that he took a detective and gave him certain attributes that people would admire and look up to. The real reason for the success of this story was not in the telling of the tale as such but in the "newness" of the creation of the great detective.

Whatever we may think of Dupin as a character we have to look at him the way those in the early 1800s would have seen him. Was Dupin's deductive reasoning faulty? Certainly compared to some of our own detectives of today he probably doesn't live up to his expectations, but still for the times you have to appreciate what he did and even how he did it. And of course one has to reason that without Dupin would we ever of had Sherlock Homes.

Tomorrow, October, 14th, will end the discussion of The Mystery of Marie Roget.

I'm a bit disappointed with the story. I expected a better and more complete ending than what the author presented.

"Asked in 1894 if Edgar Allan Poe had influenced his work, Arthur Conan Doyle, creator of Sherlock Holmes, replied, 'Oh, immensely! His detective is the best detective in fiction…Dupin is unrivalled."

Well, Poe may have influenced Conan Doyle but I can't accept that Dupin is unrivalled. IMHO the Sherlock Holmes mysteries greatly exceeded the Dupin tales.

Bill H

I'm with you on that one, Bill! And Doyle's stories were much more exciting. Still, we must give Poe credit for originating the entire genre.

Babi

BaBi, that's true!

Bill H

Scrawler, thanks so much for bringing us the excerpts you did. I enjoyed reading them more than I did the story!

Today ends our discussion of the Mystery of Marie Roget. This gives you one more chance to tell us your opinion of this Poe story. If you were a book critic, would you give it a thumbs up or down?

Scrawler, I join LauraD in thanking you for the many fine posts you gave us. I'm sure those posts required considerable thought on your part.

And I thank all of you for the many fine posts you presented here. They made this a fine discussion. When I read The Purloined Letter, I'll keep thinking of your critiques of The Mystery of Marie Roget.

Till we meet again the first of November for Poe's third Dupin tale "The Purloined Letter," I'll say goodbye.

Bill H

"In Irving Wallace's "The Fabulous Originals," the author suggests three possible killers: Crommelin, who Wallace believes was the father of the baby whose abortion caused her death; Mrs. Rogers, who possibly offered up Mary as a prostitute at the boarding house and had arranged for an abortion that accidently turned fatal; and, without any evidence to back it up, Wallace names Poe himself as a possible candidate referring to the possibility that Poe knew Mary from Anderson's tobacco store and Anderson's later claim that Poe had discussed Mary's murder with him while the writer was researching the story." ~ Crime library

That last comment sends chills up my spine. I'm a researcher myself and I do write alot of "murder" mysteries, but I can't imagine anyone thinking I was a murder just because I was researching a story. No doubt, especially in today's market, there might be a few "true crime" stories that have been written by the murderers themselves, but I can't imagine Poe as being a murderer to others especially to women.

Poe was brought up by his mother, who died of consumption (tuberculosis) a year after his father abandoned his family when Poe was three years old. He was devastated when in 1829 Poe's foster mother died, Frances Allan left him with his foster father who later disowned him. Finally, he was again devastated when his wife, Virginia Eliza Clemm broke a blood vessel while singing and playing the piano. She only partially recovered and Poe began to drink more heavily under the stress of Virginia's illness. So I think Poe showed more self-destructiveness than he would toward others. If he showed any signs of destructiveness toward anyone else than it would probably have been men.

I think too that I would discount the theory that Mrs. Rogers had offered Mary as a prostitute at the boarding house. If she was a prostitute why than would she have been working as a "cigar girl."

The only theory to my way of thinking that might have some legitimate thought to it was the possible connection to Crommelin. But we have only Wallace's belief that he was the father of Mary's baby.

Thank you one and all for a delightful discussion and I'll see you November 1. I'm looking forward to discussing "The Purloined Letter."

Just in from ten days in Utah - breathtaking! Have you ever been to Bryce Canyon, Zion, Cedar Breaks? If you ever have an opportunity, do go. I thought that once you saw the Grand Canyon, you'd seen it all. There is nothing to compare to Bryce Canyon!

I just want to say how much I've appreciated the thoughtful posts on the Marie Rogêt Murder. (Why oh why did Poe insert that circumflex over the ê in Rogêt? This former French teacher is baffled!) Like you, I was less than satisfied with Dupin's ratiocination on this one. A sailor?

Matthew, you have presented a different image of Poe - with the suggestion that he took $5000 from the real-life New York tobacconist, John Anderson (M.Le Blanc) to write this tale - to shift suspicion away from John Anderson - and onto a sailor! (IF you haven't read the details of this - do read Matthew's stunning post #219)!!!

Do you believe Poe would have done such a thing?
Were you surprised to hear from Matthew that Marie Roget is preferred by mystery writers? It was full of so many holes, I thought - but I never claimed to be an ace rationcinator.

I have to say that I preferred Purloined Letter of the three. Will look forward to that discussion in November.

Edgar Allan Poe and I welcome you to his novella "The Purloined Letter." This will be the last of the three Detective Dupin stories we will discuss. And perhaps it would be fitting to compare it to the previous Dupin tales. I kind of liked it best of all. But that is just my humble opinion.

As in the heading, The schedule for the novella is:

November 1-5 for the first half of the discussion. And November 6- 10 for the last half of the discussion.

This should give us enough time to discuss the story as well as anything else you would care to say about Edgar Allan Poe.

In my edition of the book, the story is only sixteen pages in length. So I give the following as guide lines.

The following two sentences are in the last paragraph of the first part of my book.

When he had gone, my friend entered into some explanations. "The Parisian police," he said, " are exceedingly able in their way. They are persevering. ingenious, cunning, and thoroughly versed in the knowledge which their duties seem chiefly to demand."

In my book, the last half of the novella begins with the following sentence.

"Yes, said Dupin. "The measures adopted were not only the best of their kind, but carried out to absolute perfection. Had the letter been deposited within the range of their search, these fellows would, beyond a question, found it."

I hope this helps to serve as a guide.

If you wish to read the story on line, click on the link below.

The Purloined letterBill H

"I ( John Surratt) and Edwin Booth were irritably discussing the pros and cons of Edgar Allan's Poe's fictional detective C. Auguste Dupin. I have nothing but praise for Poe's work in poetry and the macabre prose for which he is so highly regarded, but his so called tales of ratiocination leave a great deal to be desired. Dupin displayed some skill and insight in "The Purloined Letter," true enough, but on the whole he was a showy pretender to the mantle of true detective.

I found Poe a terribly somber and spectral fellow, not unlike some of the characters from those stories of his. John begged Poe to recite something for us and the poet obliged, selecting 'The Raven' which was then quite new. We were all dumbfounded at the performance, so brilliant was the poem.

I read somewhere that Poe was sometimes compared in physical appearance to your brother John (Wilkes Booth), and in the power of his poetry reading to your own dramatic skills." ~ "The Surrogate Assassin"

John Surratt and John Wilkes Booth and Edwin Booth were all contemporaries of Edgar Allan Poe. But it is nice to know, at least in John's case, that he felt very similar to Dupin's character as some us do today. As I've researched the 1800s and have read many books and poems that today we call classics, I can understand the thrill it must have been to read them for the first time or in the case of the 'The Raven' hearing it for the first time in Poe's on voice.

Hi, Scrawler. Thank you for that post.

"Dupin displayed some skill and insight in "The Purloined Letter," true enough, but on the whole he was a showy pretender to the mantle of true detective."

I'm inclined to agree with that quote. It is said that Conan Doyle was inspired by the Dupin tales to write the many Sherlock Holmes stories. However, in my opinion, the deduction displayed in the Sherlock Holmes stories were vastly superior.

Upon reading the first few lines of The Purloined letter, I thought immediately of Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes' "The Adventure of the Naval Treaty." I must read a bit further to see if this inspired the famous Conan Doyle to write his "Naval Treaty" tale..

Bill H

As well as the links in the heading you may find this link useful also.

THE WORK OF EDGAR ALAN POE

Bill H

I think it was not the 'ratiocination' in which Poe fell so much short of Doyle, as the sheer pleasure of the stories. Sherlock Holmes was active, involved, exciting. Dupin sat in his chair and propounded his rationale and conclusions at great length. It does become tiresome. I liked the "Purloined Letter" much better than the Marie Roget story. I suspect one reason is that it was much shorter!

Not only does he sit, but Dupin prefers to 'reflect' in the dark. He fells he can "examine it to better purpose in the dark". I realize it does cut down on visual distractions, but most people simply shut their eyes when they want to concentrate on their thoughts. Sitting in the dark is, I think, a purely 'Poe'ish hallmark.

Babi

"Not only does he sit, but Dupin prefers to 'reflect' in the dark"

BaBi, when Poe wrote this, I feel, on a subliminal, he was expressing his own psychological make up. I suppose what I'm trying to say is I feel Poe was a depressive. He constantly had Dupin and his friend either sitting in a dark house or he was reflecting in the dark. Poe seemed to revel in darkness.

I also liked The Purloined Letter better than Marie Roget. I found The Mystery of Marie Roget to be too long and drawn out.

Bill H

"A Latin epigraph from Seneca begins this story about a stolen letter, "Nil sapientiae odiosus acumine nimio," meaning "No wisdom is more hated than far ingenuity," no doubt referring to the analytical abilities of C. Auguste Dupin, who stars in this tale along with the same unnamed narrator from "The Murders in the Rue Morgue."~ BookRags

Note: Lucius Annaeus Seneca (often known simply as Seneca, or Seneca the Younger (ca. 4 BC-AD 65) was a Roman philosopher, statesman, dramatist, and in one work humorist, of the Silver Age of Latin literature.

Seneca's brand of Stoic philosophy emphasized practical steps by which the reader might confront life's problems. In particular, he considered it important to confront the fact of one's own mortality. The discussion of how to approach death dominates many of his letters. ~ Wikipedia

Is it any wonder that Poe used Seneca's quote to open this story. I have to believe that Poe was attracted to Seneca's philosophy concerning death. Many of Poe's stories are concerned with either death.

I have read several of Poe's short stories (especially the scary ones ones on Halloween - thus scaring myself over and over again). But I wish I knew more Latin and French since Poe starts many of his stories with a quotation in either Latin and French.

But why did Poe pick this particular quote to use. Was he telling us in a sartorial way that he too did not appreciate the abilities of C. Auguste Dupin? I think BaBi you hit on something when he said that the detective was always portrayed "in the dark" and it is from this darkness that he suddenly comes up with "a plan."

I think Poe is saying that even if is true that Dupin solves the crime, he really hasn't earned the glories because he in reality did nothing physical to obtain them. In essence I think Poe is making a satire of the aristocrats that appear to sit in the dark "expect" the lower classes to do all the work while they with their superior "minds" accept all the privileges and glories. Perhaps this is the meaning behind Seneca's epigraph - "No wisdom is more hated than far ingenuity."

SCRAWLER, your comparison of the characters of Seneca and Poe was very thoughtful. Poe would indeed have been attracted to Seneca's bent toward thoughts of death. As to the quotation, I am still puzzled as to what Seneca meant by "far ingenuity". Does he perhaps mean people who offer superior commentary from a safe distance? It's the only answer I've come up with so far that would explain a 'hated wisdom'.

I'm hoping there will be scholars among us who can translate all three of the quotes in this story.

Babi

I too prefer this story to the others,,it is brief and really not too involved...and I find Dupin rather smug. In fact he annoys me ..and Babi your comment regarding Doyle and Sherlock Holmes was most apt ..I loved the character and enjoyed them in fact I will get a copy from the library and read one again . As far as Dupin I am glad this is the last one,. I have no recollection of reading any of the three stories with Dupin but then they did not excite me this time around so I am sure if read when I was younger I did not retain any memory of them. The explanations by Dupin are overblown and at a younger age my vocabulary would have been limited and I think I would have found they deadly dull Now I think I have managed to explain my feelings in a similar manner LOL anna

I agree that perhaps Seneca was referring to people who offer superior commentary from a safe distance, but I'm not a Latin scholar so I can't really say for sure.

"...he [G--the Perfect of Police] confidently assures Dupin that everything that can be done has been done, but he still hasn't gotten anywhere. It is not a murder or assassination, but merely an important letter has been stolen from a female "royal personage," presumably the Queen, and she is now being blackmailed lest the letter will fall into her enemies' hands." ~ BookRags

I was curious about whom the "royal personage" referred to, so embarked on a wild goose chase to find out who was the King & Queen of France at the time Poe wrote this story. It was thrilling to say the least in that I'd forgotten about all the revolutions going on in France during this time period. I assumed that the "royal personage" referred to the French Queen since the story took place in France.

At any rate Louis-Philippe of France reigned from 9 August 1830 to 24 February 1848 when he was disposed by Napoleon III. Louis-Philippe's wife was Marie Amalia of Bourbon-Sicilies. In 1842 Maria Amalia was roughly 60 years old. When I think of blackmail I tend to think about a sexual scandal, but I hardly think this was the case here.

However, the Wikipedia did say: "...Neither then nor at any other time did she take any active share in politics; but she was not without indirect influence on affairs, because of her strong royalist and legitimist traditions the court was prevented from including her in the suspicion with which her husband's liberal views were regarded. Her attention was absorbed by the care and education of her numerous family (10 children), even after the revolution of 1830 had made her queen of the French."

So we might assume that this "purloined letter" might have been in regards to a political affair which would have endangered the Queen's reputation. In the 1800s the reputation of anyone, but especially a royal personage was considered sacred. It may have not been considered murder or assassination in the physical sense, but it could have destroyed her reputation none the less and this might have been worse.

You've done some nice research for us, SCRAWLER. The impression gained from the story seems to indicate a younger woman, easily confused. And it is her 'honor' that is threatened. Rather than the 60-year old Queen, perhaps the woman is intended to be one of the younger members of the royal family, or the young wife of one. Then, of course, we are reading fiction, and the woman in question may be entirely fictional.

I find the Prefects hilarity hard to understand, when Dupin suggests that the mystery is too plain, too simple, and that is why Prefect G____ is baffled. The man is practically falling off his chair laughing.

Dupin is not that funny, and the Prefect, recalling his handling of the Rue Morgue murder case, is not that stupid. The whole passage strikes me as contrived and artificial. If this is Poe's attempt to inject a little humor into the story, I fear that humor is definitely not his metier.

Babi

thank you Bill for directive - I am enjoying this story much better there are times when I cannot find a letter or paper and I turn my place upside down and cannot find it. Then a day or two later I go back to exactly the same places and what do you know - there it is under my nose all the time - I wonder if Poe had a similar experience!

I do like mystery stories. The puzzle. The line of reasoning that leads to the answer. I first read this Poe novella as a freshman in a special literature class we had. I remember my friend and I read it and before we were half thru we knew the answer to the riddle, where the letter had to be. And we didnt laugh like tje Prefect. I wont say more now as it is only half over. I do not like Dupin stories and never did. I do like some of Poe's other works however as far as the early mystery genera goes I prefer Sherlock Homes stories. Faith

Scrawler, thank you for that post. I'm sure a great amount time went into that research.

I found amusing the recounting of the Prefect of police as he describes the search that was made,i.g. the taking apart of rungs of chairs, the measuring of book covers, etc

Even more astounding, this search was done at night (I think that's what was said.) over an extended period of time without the occupant even being aware of it.

Ellen, I know exactly what you mean when you say "turning the place upside down to find a misplaced something. other. However, I don't think I ever went to the great lengths the Prefect did in making a search. I never took apart my dining room table. apart. p>Faithr, I also was anxious to learn how Dupin recovered the letter. When I read the account of him handing the letter to the Prefect, I had to read on to discover how he accomplished this.

And Faithr, I, too, think of the Sherlock Holmes as the "legend." I like the other works of Poe much better than the Dupin series.

Bill H

If Poe wrote his Dupin series in this day and age, which of the three do you folks believe would meet with the most success?

Bill H

Yes, I thought at first that the "royal personage" might have been a younger woman as well. Many of Poe's stories, although fiction, hinted at what was going on in the world at the time that the story was written. Than again the "royal personage" might just have been a fictional character.

As far as humor was concerned, some of Poe's best stories were humorous. But the humor of the times was satire, and this doesn't come off well in today's world.

For example one of his humor stories is called "Diddling." "Diddling - or the abstract idea conveyed by the verb to diddle- is sufficiently well understood. yet the fact, the deed, the thing, diddling, is somewhat difficult to define. We may get, however, at a tolerably distinct conception of the matter in hand, by defining - not the thing, diddling, in itself -but man, an animal that diddles. Had Plato but hit upon this, he would have spared the affront of the picked chicken."

This kind of humor may not appeal to today's audience, but in Poe's time it was very popular and Poe had a way with words. However, I think his best stories are his horror stories.

Psychoanalysis: "Auguste goes into an elaborate psychoanalysis of how the Perfect does not understand what kind of person Minister D-- is, for he chose to search in places that were deeply hidden, which is where the Prefect would have personally hidden the letter. However Dupin empathized with D--, declaring that he is a smarter man than the "fool" that Perfect G-- had labeled him to be because he is also a poet. Dupin later adds that being an observant person takes practice, but he Prefect is like an object of small mass in science; objects of less mass move faster, quicker, but there is little substance to them. However, objects of larger mass are more contemplative and cautious, slower to get moving right away; of course, the allegory he creates here is that he has a larger mass, i.e. more intelligence, and therefore proceeds more slowly rather than blindly and haphazardly rushing into situations like the Prefect and his police force." ~ Bookrags.

G-- in this story is only looking for the physical evidence while Auguste tries to understand what kind of person Minister D-- is. I found it interesting that Auguste states that Minister D-- is a poet. Could Poe be pointing a finger at himself and thus saying that he, because he was a poet, is also someone with intelligence.

Dupin points out that G-- would have hidden the letter in some deeply hidden spot whereas Minister D-- because he is an observant person hids it in plain sight.

I don't partically like the fact that Dupin compares G-- to "an object of small mass", but the police were not as well accepted as being very intelligent in Poe's world. They were oftened thought of as running around "blindly and haphazardly" rushing into situations. After all many on the police force were ex-criminals themselves and therefore not to be trusted.

I was surprised to note that the Prefect expected a very great reward if he could produce the missing letter. I'm accustomed to the idea that the police cannot accept rewards for doing what their job requires them to do. I was not aware that a police official in those times could do so. The superior officers, that is, of course. If one of the Prefects men had turned up the letter, I wonder if the Prefect would have shared any part of the reward with the search team or the finder.

Babi

The police seemed to really get carried away in their search for the letter -- taking the furniture apart, etc. What do modern-day police do? I see them on the news fairly often carrying out bags of evidence -- and usually the computer or hard drive. Of course they're usually not looking for a particular item like the letter. They want evidence that a crime was committed -- blood, fingerprints, weapons etc. -- and who committed it. DO they take the furniture apart? Or do they just look for any bit of evidence that the criminal overlooked or thought was hidden?

To the best of my knowledge, police investigators at a crime scene are not looking for something hidden, but for anything the 'perp' may have left behind that will identify him/her. Since that could be something as small as a hair, a thread, or a skin cell, they are very thorough in their search. There would be no reason to disassemble furniture, tho. Thank goodness!

Babi

"Considering the Perfect to be of small intellect because he failed to empathize and actually understand Minister D-- as an intelligent individual himself, he responds to the narrator's statement that he had always thought that the Minister was a mathematician, not a poet, "You are mistaken; I know him well, he is both. As poet and mathematician." He adds that if he had just been a mathematician, then the Prefect would have easily outsmarted him. The narrator replies that he always thought that mathematicians were brilliant thinkers who possess great analytical abilities. Dupin replies that general public opinion is stupid, for mathematicians do not have good analytical abilities because they are too dependent upon formulas and facts that are accepted as being automatically given. Often, one who is solely a mathematician cannot explain why a formula is the way it is, for their numbers and equations are accepted as the end all and be all of the universe, although these beliefs are victim to the same public opinion that he had just warned agaisnt. He confidently states that "Mathematical axioms are not axioms of general truth. What is true of relation -- of form and quanity -- is often greatly false in regard to morals, for example...But the mathematician argues from his "finite truths," through habit, as if they were of an absolutely general applicability -- as the world indeed imagines them to be." (Poe p.257)

Thus, Dupan advocates forgoing an individual free-thinking intellect that is founded upon careful observations and practice, rather than upon common opinions or widely accepted beliefs." RagBooks

I have to admit that Dupan might be right in his thinking. Who would you rather have working for you in finding out who or why someone murdered a loved one of yours. Someone who was a free-thinker and founded his/her conclusions on careful observations or someone who had already formed an opinion from accepted beliefs. Unfortantely, I'm not sure that I would have said it the same way as Dupan did. Dupan has a way of rubbing people the wrong way - "general public opinion is stupid" - indeed!

What do you think does Minister D-- have both the qualities of a poet and a mathematician and do these qualities have anything to do with the reason he hid the letter in plain sight? Do we really have enough information about Minister D-- to form an educated opinion of him?

Tomorrow will begin the start of the second half of our discussion. For me, this was the most interesting part, especially Detective Dupin's explanation of how he reasoned the location of the document.

Bill H

Dupin/Poe is always very free with his opinions, and expects them to be accepted since he is, in the public opinion, a genius. But then, the public is stupid, is it not? The mathematician now, works with formulas and basic givens. From there, tho', the brilliant mathematician builds, and builds, and builds, formulating new theories based on observations, which he then proves or disproves thru' hard math.

And how does the mind of the poet work? Is there any answer that fits all poets? Most use metre in composing their works. Use of rhyming formulas is common. But the thought behind the poem depends on their view of the world about them, doesn't it? Forgive me, but I begin to suspect that our Dupin, while capable of acute observation and logical deduction, is something of an ass.

Then there is the bright boy who could discern the character of others by assuming their facial expressions, and considering how it made him feel. There is an early hint here of the idea that body language conveys much about what people are thinking. I doubt very much, however, that assuming their facial expressions is going to tell you whether they are good, or wise, wicked.

Babi

BaBi, I couldn't agree more with you in that Dupin is portrayed as, you so rightly put it, "an ass". But why do you think Poe portrayed such a man as Dupin in this way? What was Poe trying to tell us about a man of Dupin's class?

"During the 1800s phrenology was very popular. Phrenology is a theory which claims to be able to determine character, personality traits, and criminality on the basis of the shape of the head (reading "bumps"). Developed by Germany physician Franz Joseph Gall around 1800, and very popular in the 19th century, it is now discredited as a pseudo science. Phrenology has however received credit as a protoscience for having contributed to medical science the ideas that the brain is the organ of the mind and that certain brain areas have localized specific functions." ~ Wikipedia

So it isn't to far of a stretch for Dupin to basis his conclusions on facial expressions. Poe developed the "phrenology" theory in several of his short stories.

"Of all of Poe's stories of ratiocination (or detective stories), "The Purloined Letter" is considered his finest. This is partially due to the fact that there are no Gothic elements, such as the gruesome descriptions of dead bodies, as there was in the other two stories. But more important, this is the story that employs most effectively the principle of ratiocination; this story illustrates the concept of the intuitive intellect at work as it solves a problem logically. Finally, more than with most of his stories, this one is told with utmost economy.

The idea that the reader is a participant in the investigation of a crime and thus should be given all the information on which the detective bases his conclusions is quite modern. In "The Purloined Letter," the reader has little chance to participate, first because little information about Minister D--'s character is given in the first half of the story, and second, because there is no indication of any activity by Dupin until the second half. Poe's purpose was not to invite reader participation, but rather to emphasize rationality, stressing logical thinking as the means of solving problems. Consequently, Dupin's exposition of his thought processes are the most important part of the story. Without this highlighting of the logical investigation and solution of a problem, the detective story may never have developed; it would certainly be very different if it had. However, with this method and approach established, it became logical, and rather easy, to evolve the idea of the reader as a participant." ~ Cliffsnotes

I think more than anything it is the lack of reader's participation that bother's most people about Poe's detective stories. We are used to being a part of the story. But Poe when he wrote his detective stories was more interested in describing the process by which a detective or in this case Dupin goes about coming to a logical solution of the problem than anything else. Keeping in mind that writer's of the 1800s tended to exaggerate the characters to the point of annoyance and to satirize there works it isn't any wonder our dislike for Dupin as a person, but you have to agree that he does have merit as far as his logical thinking goes for the time frame that the story takes place.

If, as an unknown author, Poe wrote his three Detective Dupin stories in this day and age, do you believe a publisher would be willing to publish them in book form?

Bill H

Bill H to answer that ..No ...unless he agreed to change his vocabulary so that the modern editor would know how to edit it. hahah faith

Would you believe the word 'ratiocination' appeared as an answer in a crossword puzzle I did the other day? I'd never even heard the word until we began reading "The Poe Shadow". It was a collection of older puzzles, so maybe that explains it.

You are quite right, Scrawler, that Poe's main objective was to develop and explain rationality and logic, ..and of course, observation and deduction. To Bill's question, I have to say I doubt most editors would be willing to risk a startlingly new approach, by an unknown author. On the other hand, an editor might love to get his hands on something new and different for his readers. (Nothing like knowing ones own mind, eh?)

Babi

To answer your question Bill, I doubt the way Poe writes would interest today's publishers. We are a very different audience than the audience of the 1800s. [Writers of this time period tended to write long and rambling paragraphs with little or no punctuation. At least in most cases Poe's stories were brief.] However, I do think Poe's idea of the detective story with its ideas about determining the psycology of the criinal and the methods that he used to learn about human beings, their behaviors, and their motivations would appeal to today's audience.

"The Purloined Letter" reveal the story's era. The political system in France, Dupin's comments about poetry, mathematics, and the sciences in particular. Nevertheless, the story still reads well, and the details are overshadowed by the sweep of the puzzle and the story. Even if the story were not still interesting reading, "The Purloined Letter" would be of prime historical importance for it establishes the method of psycological deduction, the solution of the most obvious place, and the assumption that the case that seems simplest may be the most difficult to solve. Whether one is interested in good reading or reading or has a historical interest in detective fiction, "The Purloined Letter" provides both." ~ CliffNotes

By and by it's really nice to be out of flood waters for at least the time being. I just had a little water problem in my bedroom and I feel like I'm living out of a container in that my place is filled with plastic containers - something about two objects being in the same place at the same time - I'm living now with ONE closet instead of two! But its nice to be back and have my computer on line - [they apparently were flooded out as well.] Talk about rambling - I've been reading way to much 1800s literature!

We live in a different world. Some people don't read at all if they can avoid it. They watch TV. Even then they need constant stimulation and won't tolerate being bored. They don't write letters. They read and write email and text messages. Even those make liberal use of abbreviations and use a much simpler grammar and vocabulary than in the Poe stories. But we still see that some people seem to have a craving (however hidden) for problem-solving (see TV shows like Lost and the CSIs.) Shows like Millionaire, Jeopardy, Wheel of Fortune etc.are popular. Our attention span sometimes is so short that we PREFER the puzzles with one quick answer (trivia) rather than the Poe-type stories that can keep us involved for a longer period of time and really flex our brain muscles. People who DO read sometimes like mystery stories like the DaVinci code but it seems like even a long story has to be broken up into many steps to keep us interested and has to have a lot of drama. Would we be interested in a treasure-hunt story with no bad guys following behind and making life dangerous? Oh that sounds something like the Dupin stories. So back to the question. Probably no.

Another thought provoking quote from Dupin:

"Bryant, in his very learned 'Mythology'.....says that 'although the Pagan fables are not believed, yet we forget ourselves continually, and make inferences from them as existing realities'."

Well, we do speak of 'Promethean fire', for example, and the 'Junoesque' body. The more literary, instead of being between a rock and a hard place, are between Scylla and Charybdis. Yet this does not imply that we are stupid, and believe fables, as Dupin suggests. These classic references provide useful comparisons and colorful images. The ancient writers, and the ancient beliefs, quite well understood human nature. Parallels drawn today are perfectly legitimate and valid, IMO.

Babi

Anterlady, you right today's audience gets bored easily & have a short attention span. Today's audience sometimes prefer the reality shows because they don't have to get involved with the characters in shows where the story line is extended from one week to the other. Now a days we tend to see things in "byte" size pieces. Unless you're like me who isn't happy unless my book has at least 1,000 or so words. I like to get really involve with the characters and want to know all the tiny details which is in possible in TV shows today. I must confess that as I grow older I prefer to write E-mails etc to long letters because my handwriting has gotten so bad that I can't even read it.

BaBi, I found it interesting in most 19th century stories that there were many references to ancient texts about mythology as well as quotes in French or Latin. I suppose back than the people who could afford books had a background in such things. I sometimes wish I could translate the French or Latin. I had four years of Latin, but unfortunately we spent most of our time translating the works of Caesar.

Police methods vs. Dupin's thinking:

"The police launch a series of scientific and precise, but misguided, investigations by using logical methods that are based solely on past experience and established systems of thought. Their investigative methods reflect the types of rational thought prevalent in the mid-nineenth century. In the end, the police are unsuccessful in finding the letter because the thief has hidden it in the most unexpected place - right under their noses." ~ "eNotes"

So what were the methods used by the police?

Forensic and police sciences: "Modern forensic and police sciences in major cities throughout our country cover all areas dealing with the commission of a crime through their lab, forensic, and behavioral sciences departments. The deductive process of Sherlock Homes days is long gone. It has been replaced by highly skilled technicians and criminalists, many of whom are civilians working for law-enforcement agencies.

Police sciences includes a number of sections, such as toxicology, identification, serology [deals with identification and subsequent grouping of blood and other body fluids such as seamen and saliva in major crimes, primarily homicide and sexual assault], blood-alcohol testing, narcotics, physical evidence, firearms, questioned documents, polygraph, behavorial sciences, and photographic sciences." ~ "Crime Reference Book"

The answer to my question is probably that the police had little technical skills at the time of Poe's story. They were after all for the most part ex-criminals themselves & relied on their past criminal experiences and police conquests to foster an idea of the solution to the crime. But in this case Minister D was not the average criminal on the street, he to my way of thinking might have been called today a "white-collar" criminal.

I doubt that the only evidence that the police were able to use in the solution was purely physical such as hair and fiber evidence and shoe prints as well as physical matches. In this case they did not have the ability of analyzing the written document or a typewriter and computer analysis comparison. Even fingerprinting comparison was new to the field and was not trusted by some police departments as was polygraph sources. These later devices would become more prominent in the later part of the 19th century, but they were unavailable during the time Poe wrote his story.

Tomorrow, November 10th, will bring a close to the discussion of The Purloined Letter. So there is one more day for posting your thoughts about these stories.

I apologize for not being more attentive in the Detective Dupin series but my back problems limit my sitting time at the computer and that can chip away at one's enthusiasm

Bill H

"The Romantic movement was one which began in Germany, moved through all of Europe and Russia, and, almost simultaneously, changed the entire course of American literature. Among England's great Romantic writers are William Wordsworth, Samuel Taylor Coleridge, John Keats, Lord Byron, Percy Shelly, and Sir Walter Scott. Romantic writers in America who were contemporaries of Poe include Hawthorne (whose works Poe reviewed and admired), Herman Melville, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Henry David Thoreau, and Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, whom Poe did not like and to whom he was rather insulting in a review.

Poe's brand of Romanticism was akin to his contemporaries but most of his works often bordered on what was later called the gothic genre.

The intellectual and didactic was for sermons and treatises, whereas the emotions were the sole province of art; after all, Poe reasoned, man felt and sensed things before he thought about them. Even Poe's most intellectual characters, such as M. Dupin ("The Purloined Letter,") rely more on intuition than on rationality. As one examines M. Dupin one notes that he solves his crimes by intutitively placing himself in the mind of the criminal. Throughout Poe's works, his characters are usually dominated by their emotions. This concept explains much of the seemingly erratic behavior of the characters in all of the stories. Throughout Poe's fiction, much of the behavior of his characters must be viewed and can be explained best in terms of the Romanic period in which he wrote." ~ CliffNotes

"Poe reasoned, man felt and sensed things before he thought about them." Do you agree that this discription fits Dupin's character. According to the dictionary, emotion is defined as: "intense feeling." Do you think Dupin has such an intense feeling?

I think everyone has "emotion" but I think it is the degree of emotion that is different in each of us. Some people can show emotion almost to the point that they become almost hysterical, while others show very little emotion, but that doesn't mean they don't have any. I think Dupin let his emotions come forward through his statements about the police and their policies and when he talked about science and other subjects.

I do agree that man/woman have to feel "something" before they can think "something" and thus act on "something."

Bill, I hope you feel better soon. I too have back problems and when I'm on the computer I tend to forget until I go to get up out of the chair and than oh my what a "feeling"! I feel like man/woman should crawl around on all fours - at least for awhile.

"Bill, I hope you feel better soon. I too have back problems and when I'm on the computer I tend to forget until I go to get up out of the chair and than oh my what a "feeling"! I feel like man/woman should crawl around on all fours - at least for awhile."

Scrawler I know exactly what you mean. However, I don't think my knees could take it.

Bill H

Today will close our discussion of The Purloined Letter.

"Between 1841 and 1844, Edgar Allan Poe invented the genre of detective fiction with three mesmerizing stories of a young French eccentric named C. Auguste Dupin. Introducing to literature the concept of applying reason to solving crime, these tales brought Poe his widest audience."

I'm sure we all thank Edgar Allan Poe for being the motivating force that brought about the many legendary and famous fictional detectives whose stories we have enjoyed reading and analyzing. Thank you Mr. Poe for C. Augste Dupin.

I do thank all of you who participated in the three Dupin Tales: The Murder in the Rue Morgue, The Mystery of Marie Roget, and the Purloined Letter. Your posts and analysis of the novellas were interesting to read and cast a new light on the reading of Poe's Dupin stories.

Once again, Thank you for participating.

Bill H

Thank you for sticking with us, BILL, in spite of your back problems. I also do better if I remember to get up and move about frequently, but like Scrawler, I often forget until my back forcibly reminds me!

And thank you, SCRAWLER. You've added so much to the enjoyment of this discussion.

Babi

"Setting and Time:

Poe's reader will not find a story which is set in some recognizable place in the present time. Even Poe's detective fiction is set in France rather than in America, thus giving it a Romantic distance from the reader.

Characterization:

For a Romantic like Poe, the emphasis of literature ought to be on the final "effect" and the "emotion" produced thereby. The greatness of "The Pit and the Pendulum" is not in knowing the name of the narrator but in sensing his fears and his terrors.

Subject Matter:

The Romantic writer is often both praised and condemned for emphasizing the strange, the bizarre, the unusual, and the unexpected in his or her writing, and it is out of the Romantic tradition that we get such figures as the monster in "Frankenstein" and "Count Dracula." The Romantic felt that the common or the ordinary had no place in the realm of art. Poe eschewed or despised literature that dealt with mundane subjects. Such things could be seen every day. The purpose of art, for Poe, was to choose subjects which could affect the reader in a manner which he would not encounter in everyday life. Thus, the subject matter of many of his tales dealt with living corpses, with frightening experiences, with horrors which startled the reader, and with situations which even we have never imagined before.

In conclusion, what might sometimes seem puzzling in a story by Poe, such as an unexpected ending or an unexpected event, is not puzzling if we remember that what he created was a result of his writing during the Romantic tradition. While his tales can be read as "stories," they take on further significance as superb examples of the Romantic tradion." ~ CliffNotes

Setting and Time:

So how can we apply the above to our story "The Purloined Letter"? Poe's detective stories did take place in another land other than America which led to the Romantic flavor. If we think like 19th century readers, very few had the opportunity to travel more than a few miles from their homes. Even the very rich didn't travel as much as perhaps their contemporaries do today. How many of us would have endured a long and dangerous sea voyage to explore other lands. But through Poe's stories they were transported to other lands and strange places. When Poe wrote his stories many of them were serialized in magazines like "Ladies Home Companion" and "Godey's Lady's Book"[Godey's Lady's Book -the most popular nineteenth-century women's magazine had a circulation of 150,000].

Characterization:

Whatever we may think today of the Dupin's character in the 19th century he was a new and interesting character - the way he lived & worked. We are used to the detectives of today that we see on "Law & Order" or find in our mystery novels. But in Poe's day there had never been a "detective" as such in stories especially one who had such "strange" ideas. Poe's detective tales might not keep us up at night but you have to admit that they give us another way of looking at something. He emphasized the way to catch a criminal was to go inside the criminal's mind. Something totally unheard of in the 19th century. But perhaps the most important idea we get from this story is that we should be more observant of the world around us. What's the old saying - if you lose something - look where you last had it? Well, its true in solving a mystery - sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees!

Subject Matter:

"The Purloined Letter" is a puzzle story at its best. How many of you expected the story to end the way it did the first time you read it? But when you look at it as a Romantic tradition we can see the same example that we get from such novels as "Frankenstein" and "Count Dracula." As you peeled away the layers much like an onion what was revealed to you for definitely strange and exciting - and imagine what a 19th century audience must have felt!

Thanks for a great discussion - it was a small group - but it was as if we were all sitting around next to a cozy fire reading Poe's story just as a group of people might have done back in the 19th century.

PS. If you really want to be terrified read Poe's short story - "Bernice" - talk about a strange & bizzare ending!

Scrawler, like BaBi, I do thank you for those great collection of posts. I'm sure they they took a significant amount of time and research on your part.

You did add much to this discussion.

Thank all of you who participated.

Bill H