Hello, Everybody!

Are any of you fine readers interested in discussing this book along with us? Please post a message to that effect so that we can see if we can get up a quorum. The discussion will begin October 1, so you will all have time to get your copy. Incidentally, it is also available in paperback.

Please post here and let us know your intentions.

Lorrie

Hi, Lorrie:

If I can somehow get this book, I'd love to join this discussion.

Mal

Lorrie, I just got your email and I'm so glad you will discuss "Empire Falls." I just finished it about a week ago and really enjoyed it. It should make for a good discussion -- about small town life, those who leave, those who stay, who has power, you name it. It took me a little while to get into it, but after that I couldn't put it down.

Of course, you know what's happening in October and I plan to be there -- before, during, and after. Actually, visiting son and family in Bethesda before the Book Get-together and my Charlottesville daughter afterwards. But, they have computers and I'll try connecting, as I usually do. Yes, I do plan to participate in this discussion.

Hi, Malryn! I sort of thought you might be along here. I know you spent quite a bit of time in the Northeast section of our country, and if I understand right, Maine was included in that. And much of the action in this book takes place in a small town in Maine. So that should be right up your alley, so to speak?

I'm sure you will have a copy by the time we begin in October.

Pedln:

Even though you will be up there in that Disneyland on the Potomac, I hope you can find time somehow to come in and chat with us, at least. Besides, you won't be gone the whole month, will you? I would really like to see you here!.

Well, that makes three of us, one more and we can call it a real quorum! Anyone else out there?

Lorrie

I'm in!

Oh, Sarah, that is great!! So far, so good. I have to admit that I am still waiting for my back-ordered copy of this book, and it still hasn't arrived, drat it! That's why there is no reading schedule posted up above. I also found a couple of really intriguing links i will want to put in there.

This looks like a really good read, and I have a feeling we can have a good time with this one. Anyone else?

Lorrie

Hi, Lorrie, I'm going to check my local library and see if they have Empire Falls and get my name on the list for it. Looking forward to joining you all.

Hey, Meg! and Jane! WONDERFUL!! This is going to be just fine, I know.

Lorrie

Count me in! I've already splurged on the book (pb) because Straight Man is one of my favoritest books ever--what a hoot (I enjoyed it much more than Chabon's Wonder Boys with similar tale). I too will be at Book Fest, but not leaving till the 8th and back the 12th.

Welcome, MmeW! I'm going to have to read Straight Man, I've seen such glowing reports about that book! Maybe afte Empire Falls. Anyway, I'm so glad to see you here!

Lorrie

MmeW - I too loved Straight Man, as well as Nobody's Fool. Russo is one of our greats, I believe.

Guess where I'll be in October - Maine!! Good timing, eh?

Mal - I've never been to Maine and am really excited about this trip! I'll wave as I drive your sister's way!

Yes, Sarah, you will have to give us your impressions of the state when you get there. I've never been to Maine, but I have formed a sort of picture of Maine residents from reading lots of Stephen King's books; he has used that setting in many of his novels. I am probably wrong, but i envision Maine as a beautiful, vacation-type sort of place, with wonderful coast lines and gorgeous forests. I imagine it is also horrible in winter, something like my own Minnesota here. I picture the inhabitants as crutsty, grizzled seniors, all of whom talk with a broad Yankee accent, and a lot of Aayups! Hahaha

Lorrrie

This is interesting. Russo was asked, in an author appearance, how he thought the people of Maine would receive his book.

Q: How do you imagine Mainers, and other New Englanders, will respond to the novel?

A: No clue. I thought academics would hate my last novel, Straight Man, but for the most part they've embraced it. When I read from the novel on book tour, professors showed up wearing those fake nose/glasses I have Lucky Hank wearing when he threatens to kill a duck a day. In general, I think people like having their experience of life validated; they like to think they count and they're glad you've noticed them, even if you get things wrong. In Empire Falls, I didn't want to ““do Maine”” in the sense of using a lot of down-east dialect or local color. Even when I was writing about upstate New York, I was always more interested in locating people by class and work than by region; it's the latter that makes you a ““regional”” writer, I suspect.

I hope people in Maine like the book; in the past, I've sold very well in New England. But my greater hope is that the book will ring true everywhere.

Lorrie

It appears that a great deal of the novel is set in a restaurant in the mythical city of Empire Falls, and that got me to thinking of past American grills and those familiar diners that one would see everywhere. Some of them are quite historical, and some of them are still just as popular with people as they were forty or fifty years ago.

I have made a link in the heading above to a site that I think you will find quite interesting. Since we do have plenty of time to chat a bit before we begin our book.

Lorrie

I spent five weeks in Maine about 15 years ago. In the plane I sat next to some kind of state official who said by per capita income Maine was the poorest in the nation. I didn't have a chance to observe that because the people I visited were every year summer residents--lots of money. But I did notice that the workers (gas stations, grocery stores, etc) never hustled, and men didn't come right away to fix things unless it was an emergency, and yes they did have the accents, and the beauty was pevasive and breathtaking--I could not take a bad photograph.

How well you describe it, Elizabeth!

Lorrie

Thank you Lorrie; my spelling alas sucks.

Oh, Elizabeth, I wouldn't say that. You spell sucks okay. Hahaha

Lorrie

I was looking over some of the pictures of diners in that link up above in the heading, and I keep remembering the words of my father, who travelled the highways a great deal:

"When you want dinner, find a candlelight and wine place, and take your time, but when you want an excellent breakfast, go to a diner, then hit the road fast!"

Some of those pictures brought back real memories.

I am enjoying the book right now and hope to be ready for the discussion-- on time, for a change!

Oh, Jo, that's great! I am also reading the first section of the book, and I am finding it enthralling. I like Russo's wit.

On reading over his enterview that I linked up in the heading, I read where Russo tells the interviewer that many of the local Maine residents have a resentment towards people from out-of-state, particularly Massachussets. even to the extent of calling them "Massholes" or something like. I have an idea that this is a theme that is touched upon in the book.

I can well understand the attitude, when my husband and I bought some property up in northern Wisconsin in resort country, we were resented and ridiculed by the local people at first, and it took a good long time for them to become even passably friendly. I always thought it was a case of biting the hand that feeds you because so many of these locals depended on outsiders for summer income. Inconsistent, I thought.

Lorrie

Hi! I'm new here and would love to join in on your discussion. I have just started reading "Empire Falls" and I hope to be prepared for the discussion.

WELL GR8FUL!! WELCOME, WELCOME!

So glad you have the book, and we'll be looking forward to seeing your comments on October 1. I like the way you shortened your screen name!

Lorrie

Are you from Maine, by any chance?

Lorrie, No, I'm not from Maine. I live in Lincoln, Nebraksa. Thank you for the welcome!

Gr8ful: Well, no matter where you are from, you are always welcome here. I am looking forward to our enjoyment of discussing this book, so far i like what I've been reading. It won't be long now!

Lorrie

p.s. I have a niece and her family living in Lincoln. They are connected with the University there in some way, and her mother always said she believed Lincoln was an ideal place to raise a family.

Welcome gr8ful!

Welcome, Gr8ful!

I love Russo's wry sense of humor: "...it was the particular curse of the Whiting men that their wives remained loyal to them out of spite." "In his experience people were seldom happier for having learned what they were missing."

I don't mean to start early, but this is from the Prologue, and every time I get a "ha" I keep wanting to share.

MmeW: Isn't he great? There are many passages in this first section in which I found myself laughing out loud.

Lorrie

Not only chuckles, but many insightful observations! The kind that make me think "That's right! I wish I had said it or thought about it that way!" (I'll find an example!)
Welcome, gr8ful!

Hi, Everyone! The Library gal called last night and my copy of EF is finally in. I'll pick it up today and start a reading marathon to catch up for Tuesday morning.

It looks as if there's going to be a great group here, Lorrie, for your discussion.

WELCOME, WELCOME, JANE!

This is great-----looks like we will be having a very satisfying discussion. Won't be long now.

Lorrie

I have put in a few questions to get us started in the heading, so look them over and answer as you see fit, and at your convenience, beginning Tuesday.

Lorrie

I have been thinking about some of the secondary characters that we have met so far, and I must say, the one above all who seems to stick in my mind, is Miles' father, a really exasperating man who can make you feel a gamut of emotions, disgust, disappointment, some awe of his chutzpah, and a sneaking little feeling of amusement at some of his outspoken comments.

There are many such colorful people passing through these pages, poor Father Tom who shouts obscenities about Miles' mother, Walt Comeau who is about to marry Miles' ex-wife, Jimmy Minty, the town cop, and many others.

Do you think Russo's description of the town fits the picture you had in your mind? I wonder what Miles' mother meant by "small towns accomodate just about everyone?"

Lorrie

Lorrie: I, too, think it's a typical small town...where any industry was owned and controlled by one family. It was true where I grew up...with steel mills where NE has the textile mills. Subsitute a word here and there...steel for textile...Reeves for Whiting and it's the same story.

I guess small towns do accommodate just about everyone. Those same people exist in large cities, of course, but I don't know how they're "accommodated" there. Here, in this small town in which I live, there are several of the "fringe"...ie, people who obviously have some difficulties with conventional rules of society...in dress, appearance, behavior. Everyone knows who they are and a mention of the name brings a nod of the head from others. I suspect in a large city "Kevin and Princess" (as she's known around town) would be in a homeless shelter.

I dislike Max Roby more and more as I read.

I agree about the italics, Mal...very hard on the eyes, indeed.

I am very literally just to the end of part I, and I find myself wanting in my left-brained way to create a chronology so that I can connect the dots. I wonder if Charlie Mayne (Charlemagne?) isn’t CB Whiting. If so, is David his son or Max’s (though Miles says that he Miles is more like his mother and David more like Max). Or is Miles his son?

We know that Grace had a lot of contact with the Whiting family, worked for them, helped raise their daughter, and Grace was full of grace, unlike Francine.

Max, quite frankly, reminds me of any number of cantankerous old men, from Archie Bunker to Redd Foxx to my husband’s grandfather, who used to beckon the kids to come closer to him and then hit them with his cane. (They learned fast.)

The description of Jimmy Minty as a boy, constantly envious of others and comparing what he has to others, is so telling. What a shifty, mean-spirited man. So what is the conspiracy between him and Francine? And why does she want Miles to run for mayor? To keep him in town? And why does she want to keep him in town? Is she trying to help him for Grace’s sake or is she trying to get even with Grace by "preventing" him from leaving? Another puzzling factor: her seeming lack of concern for the Empire Grill. She wants it merely to survive, but not become a successful, money-making concern. Miles leaves every State of the Empire meeting feeling that he has "yet again failed some secret test."

Perhaps it has a double sense: Charlemagne was an Emperor.

And Francine seems to be aware of this vacation on MI, asking Miles why he thinks he always goes back there. She acknowledges that the fact that his friends have a house there is true, but demurs, quoting the last line of The Great Gatsby about being "borne back ceaselessly into the past."

The Whiting portraits "all reminded Miles of someone, though he couldn’t imagine who." Can it be David?

Interesting comments on Charlie and the morning sickness. I, too, assume Grace is pregnant while she and Miles are on vacation with Charlie who "happens" to appear there. I, too, wondered if this baby was Max's or perhaps Charlie's???

Oh, wonderful, you are all asking the right questions. I have had the same vague thoughts about parentage, and I must confess the episode of the summer vacation with Miles (as a boy) and Grace, and the sudden appearance of the mysterious Charley Mayne. Intriguing, isn't it? I do so hope nobody decides to explain it all long before we go on further reading.

Yes, Mal, I love these characters! They're so real! And I have a feeling that there will be a lot more about Tick than we have read so far. Well, I admit it---I'm hooked!

Jane, I noticed that too, about the morning sickness. So you see, great minds run in the same channels. Hahaha

MMwe: Great grasp of what has been written so far.

Lorrie

Empire Falls is Empire Grill is Miles Roby, all-accepting, if not always all-embracing. The environment and central character mirror each other in a way that addresses the “small town” question. What else can a small town do but make the best of what’s there, and what else can its residents do but accept and support each other? Doesn’t Miles, who puts up virtually no struggle against Janice’s leaving him and even allows Walt to sit in his diner and harass him, seem to be the perfect, patient resident of the town?
Empire Falls is on the skids, the shirt factory and textile mill long gone. The people live in hope of better days, nobody more than crazy Janice, who thinks the answer to her stagnant existence is a toned body and hot sex. The patient plodding of Miles works against her restlessness. She thinks the Silver Fox is her ticket to excitement and gratification. Poor woman!
I loved the characters in this one, Max (!) included, but Miles, who was too patient and long-suffering, is, nevertheless, my favorite.

Jo:

"A toned body and hot sex!" Hahaha! That surely is an apt discussion of Janine, who seems to be having faint little second thoughts, in my estimation.

Aren't these characters wonderful? I can see we are all forming likes and dislikes, and from the little I've read so far, I sort of like David, Miles' brother. He seems a little less "put upon" than his brother.

There was a character in "Shipping News", a decent man but something of a loser who reminds me a bit of Miles, but you can't help but be behind him and wish him well.

Lorrie

What do you all make of this Walt? Is he the adult version of the playground bully who needs to somehow show "everyone" how much superior he is to someone else...ie, Miles, who is viewed as the "loser/wimp/wuss"???

Jane, I see what you mean about Walt? On page 27, paragraph 4, (paperback version)) Miles wonders about the Silver Fox's (another Freudian slip?) penchant for often forcing him to make change for large bills. Do you see something psychological there? I do think he is terribly jealous of Miles, but why?

Lorrie

Lorrie...I sense that too...and the same with Jimmy Minty, the cop. I haven't come to grips yet with why they are jealous of the mild-mannered Miles and feel the need to try to be superior? I hope that becomes clear by the end.

Mal..."Oh my God, Oh my God" Candace breaks me up too...talk about a sterotypical "Valley Girl"/Airhead. I sort of had the feeling Candace talks to Tick because Tick had Zach Minty at one point and Candace is intrigued and that for Tick it's someone to talk to. She sounds as if the breakup with Zach has meant she has 0 friends.

I've been doing some reading about this book (Oh, really?) and I wonder if anyone has read any other of Russo's books? I read "Nobody's Fool" and then saw the movie with Paul Newman, who was wonderful in it. Now I learn that HBO has bought all rights to this novel and will be making the movie soon, with Paul Newman, again, only this time he will be playing Max, Miles' father. They didn't say who would be playing the role of Miles, probably don't know yet, but i do think the choice of Newman for Max is great. He will be wonderul, I know.

Lorrie

We get such a wonderful portrait of Miles through others’ eyes: Janine sees him as "The World’s Most Transparent Man"; Charlene as "the kind of man who can never conceal his disapproval"; Tick says, "It’s not like you don’t have any [secrets]…It’s just that everybody figures them out."

Francine sees him as "a case study in repression"; the men at the lunch counter as "unhappy in general." Bea says "Miles was about the nicest, saddest man in all of Empire Falls," but "the sort of man you could love without losing your self-respect."

"In Max’s view, Grace had raised their son to be morally fastidious just to spite him." "Miles was careful and thoughtful, like their mother." (Miles’ thoughts, I think)

I like Miles and don’t see him as a wimp, perhaps just resigned to his fate. (I love Jo’s description of him as the perfect patient man.) Although he seems to see himself and his motives clearly, I think David is the most clear-sighted of all, at least where Miles is concerned.

Jimmy Minty seems more like "the adult version of the playground bully" than Walt. I think Walt is kind of pathetic, actually. He seems very insecure to me, hence his need to "prove himself superior" (though he can’t). People just ignore him or insult him to his face and his perplexity at card games is hoot. He tries so desperately to win Tick over, to no avail. I think he’s a stupid man who may suspect that he isn’t so smart. Or, even worse, he is a stupid man who is totally oblivious to that fact.

Tick seems to be an observer mainly, with 0 friends, and she is merely observing Candace, who is her window into the "Bone World." I don’t think they have anything in common except that Zach has put Candace up to pushing for a reconciliation between him and Tick. I don’t think Tick likes Zach at all, which is a good thing, since he sounds like a chip off the old block (Jimmy).

I've been lurking -- no book -- it had to go back to the library after I finished it this summer and will probably not be available again until 2004. Your posts are wonderful, and I find myself saying "Oh yeah, that's right."

MmeW -- I agree with you about David -- he is clear-sighted. So is Bea, the ex-mother-in-law. Pragmatists, both of them. Would the Empire Grill survive without David's ideas?

And what about those high school folks. I do NOT like that art teacher, but the principal sounds like a good guy. (He reminds me of my granddaughter's principal, who just last week took her and a friend to visit another friend in the hospital.) I can't remember his name, but he cares about the kids -- letting Tick and that strange boy have the cafeteria to themselves, sidestepping school procedures.

That Jimmy Minty has a bad case of low self-esteem -- always has had. The wrong kind of guy to be a cop.

I'll be lurking, but am leaving town tomorrow. It's hard to remember what has taken place and where you are in the book -- so many flash backs.

The whole chapter concerning Tick and the art class I found disturbing. The description of the art teacher was so dead on: Mrs. Rodrigue not wanting to confront students, liking the Green Table that does nothing but is passive, afraid of the Blue Table where things are happening (not all good).

I hope we get an explanation for why Tick has such a violent reaction to the blood and why it begins with such pain in her left arm. I actually thought the Exacto-Knife had accidentally cut her, especially with Candace apologizing so profusely.

I was struck by the elemnt of fear in the book, not expecting it in a little Maine town.

Tick’s stomach is "twisted into knots" by school and "dread is her more or less constant companion." I had expected Tick to be a blithe breath of fresh air, and here she is anorexic and even more tormented than her elders.

Miles is "terrified of heights"; he is fearful, even imagines, that something terrible might happen to Tick; he was "terrified that the team might lose because of him" as a boy; he wakes up "frightened" from his dream on MV; he experiences "anger mingled with fear" outside the donut shop.

Tick sees fleeting looks of panic on Janice’s face from time to time.

Miles notices that his mother is afraid on the ferry to MV and spots fear in her eyes as they arrive at Summer House.

Weird happening: On the way home from the bar, Horace witnesses something that utterly shakes him to the core and stays with him "as if he himself and not that sad, alarming boy had been the guilty party." What did he see? Does it involve John Voss, the boy from art class?

Mal, I can't help but agree with your last sentence in #57. Do any of you other readers get the feeling you'd like to yell at Miles to "stand up and DO something?"

MmeW:

Perceptive of you to see the "fear" nuances here. I hadn't noticed but I see what you mean. In fact, we must admit that there is a total feeling of suspense here, so many unanswered questions, so many things to read between the lines. I am really anxious to see what the real relationship is between Miles and Mrs. Whiting, and I am so grateful to you all for not giving anything away just yet.

Lorrie

It's sad to see Miles gazing out at this ruined kingdom from his Empire Grill, seeing nothing but the opportunity of his youth turned into an albatross of his daily and future life. To me he seems pulled in different directions. Pulled between his exasperating father Max and his daughter Tick, between his dead mother's dreams for him and the obligations he feels he owes to the town's rich mtriarch.

Lorrie

MmeW, I have finished the book, and you will find out what Horace saw on the way home from the bar much later. I had forgotten about this passage until you mentioned it!
I think Miles suffers fools, maybe not gladly, in the person of Walt Comeau. I don't think he takes him seriously, any more than Horace does during those card games. But even after finishing the book, I still don't understand, completely, why Miles was so compliant, so accepting of his role, especially where Francine Whiting is concerned.

Yes, indeed—thanks for not giving things away. Most of my questions are just rhetorical ones because a scene has piqued my interest and I sense it is foreshadowing and I don’t want to forget it (especially since my reading and discussion will be interrupted by the Book Festival).

As for Miles, I think some people are just less driven than others. He wanted to come back to Empire Falls; his mother’s illness seemed almost an excuse. So far, I haven’t seen any inkling of ambition or even much dissatisfaction. (He doesn’t seem to have much sex drive either.) So maybe he’s just that kind of guy. Plus, inertia is a powerful force.

Maybe because he is "morally scrupulous," he finds it easier to trust Mrs. Whiting, but being the suspicious, mistrusting person that I am, I can’t help but doubt her motives. I wonder what the test is that he feels he fails each "State of the Grill" meeting. Does he really feel he owes her something? (David shoots that down, but Miles seems to ignore him.)

I was going to question Mal’s "manipulation by others," but then I realized that he is indeed manipulated by Janine and Walt about the house, and Mrs. W. about the grill. And, so I am beginning to agree with you that Miles needs some backbone. He truly seems to avoid confrontation.

Mal, I wonder if the egg is the unhatched John Voss? I think he is devekopmentally arrested, and worse, as you will see. With different nurturing, perhaps his primary image would have turned out to be something else.
I think that was an important promise, connecting neatly with the fact that he becomes a Francine "puppet" in adulthood. (Are you the one who characterized her as the town puppeteer?) It's ironic that loyalty and love for his mother results in his accepting (I almost said choosing) a life that is the opposite of what she wanted for him.

Wow!

This is the kind of discussion I like to participate in. Your interpretations of the various characters are right on the button, IMHO, and I especially like Jo's opinion of John Voss being the egg,

MmeW:

I still can't understand why Miles feels so "morally obligated" to that machiavellian old lady. After all, it seems to me he's worked his butt off for many years already for her. David seems to see her in a more pragmatic light, as somebody here mentioned.

Mal, in your estimation do you think all the scofflaw about "Down-East" accents is exaggerated? Sometimes when I watch a movie featuring (fictional) Maine lobstermen speaking, for instance, their speech seems too laden with broad A's and "cahr" and "yonda's" Sometimes it seems a little much.

Speaking of Francine's belligerent cat (which we will learn more about in next week's schedule by the way) on Page 132 (paperback) what do you all make of the significance of the stone cat on top of the monument on C.B. Whiting's grave? Incidentally, I thought chapter two on that page was hilarious. A bit bawdy, but funny!!

Lorrie

Lorrie, I think one of the reasons that Miles feels morally obligated to FRW is that he knows she supplied the money for his books at college, though David insists that their mother would have paid FRW back. Also, Grace worked for FRW (he mentioned taking care of the little girl). When this happened, I'm not sure... Maybe after the factory she worked in was closed.

You mean the cat on CW's monument that Horace thought was a stone cat? Kinda spooky, like Timmy is a witch's familiar. (What is this spell FRW has cast on Miles?)

Jo, I too was thinking about the sexuality of Tick's and John's dream representations, though in a slightly different way. J

One sunny happy morning I was having brunch in a crowded small-town cafe in Maine. The conversation all about was animated and overall sounded like sheep baa-ing. Not baa baa as in rah rah, but baa baa as in a in attic, or in accent or ask. Baaaaaaaaaaaaa baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. It sounded really strange to one whose New Jersey accent is particularly pure (Hackensack).

Mal, I’ve read The Beans of Egypt, Maine and it was much grimmer than I thought it would be! My only experience has been in Ellsworth: I have a friend who returned to run her mother’s motel (after living abroad, marrying a Brit, living in LV), and some of her tales seemed quite "provincial" to me. She ran into old high school acquaintances, much like Miles in the DMV…and what do you say? However, Ellsworth’s population is only 2000, and because as the "gateway to Acadia National Park," its economy is dependent on tourism (her dad runs a gift shop in Bah Habah, it really doesn’t resemble EF. There are lots of donut shops and discount stores, etc., even with just 2,000 people.

However, as a normal deracinated American from the Chicagoland area (now in LV; folks retired to Texas, brother lives in Albuquerque, son in the Bay area), I can see the attraction to return to your roots.

Mal, I thought Ellsworth was bigger than 2000, but that was all I could find on the web. It certainly has some good websites, but I couldn't find pop. on them. Stephen King lives in Bangor, I think, but they did film Pet Cemetary in Ellsworth. I can imagine that inland Maine is a lot different since the population would be much more stable (no influx of tourists) and possibly more incestuous, something which I think affects EF.

Elizabeth N.;

I'm curious. What sort of speech do people from Hackensack have? Here in Minnesota we don't say "Ayup", but we do say "You betcha" a lot.

Lorrie

Mal:

Loved your story about Henry Hawkins and his non-washed plate. Haha You also mention "That scene at C.B.Whiting's grave is funny. Yes, what would Max's reaction have been if he knew the cat was alive?"

Had he known, I think Max would have aimed differently.

Lorrie

Yes, you betcha he would've!
I think the cat is Francine-witch's familiar, like Graymalkin in Macbeth: "I come,Graymalkin!" says one of the three witches. I think Miles is driven to expiate Grace's guilt where Francine is concerned without being fully conscious of the feeling. Francine is witchy where the fate of Empire Falls and Miles are concerned, but she does teach him to drive better than the instructor did. Don't know if you've all read that part yet!

Mal, Did all of this happen in the part we're discussing?

She was married to a man who preferred lolling around in the sun in Mexico to running the family business in frigid Maine, a business he left her to manage with its success or failure her responsibiity. This husband of hers was also unfaithful to her, a fact she well knew. Her only child had been hit by a car and was a cripple. Who wouldn't be mad?

Boy, I missed all of it! I'd better start the book over again. RATS!

Yes, Mal, I did indeed read that, but I thought that referred to his young and single years before he was summoned home to take over the family business. Boy, I've sure misread everything if that refers to his married life with Francine.

Jane, all we have seen so far about CB in Mexico is his youthful sojourn there as an artist, and one sentence on p. 129. When Horace is talking to Max in the bar and Max recalls CB killing himself 23 years ago in March, they are surprised that he remembers and he thinks, "the weird part was that Whiting had taken the time and trouble to come all the way back to Empire Falls when he could have just shot himself in Mexico, where he was living at the time." I think the reason the reference stuck in my mind is that I was so surprised to discover that he had gone back to Mexico.

And so far, we can only guess that Charlie Mayne is CB.

I think there is some reference to CB and FRW's daughter (Cindy?) not living (or ever coming back to) EF, but I don't remember where it was. And reference to Grace's having cared for FRW's daughter. But that's the extent as far as we have gone.

That's primarily why I don't go further in the book than the schedule. It's hard to remember how much is known when. Also, I think it's good to read some and then contemplate what you have read. I enjoy posing my rhetorical questions—why did this happen, what does that mean, etc. as a means to making me pay attention to hints dropped.

We all have different ways of reading our books. Some of us start a book, gulp it down, devour it in a few days, and then go back and re-read it slowly again, some of us plod along chapter by chapter, savoring it as we go along. I know how difficult it is to stay within a designated schedule when you're a "fast reader," but for the sake of those very "plodders," we ask you all not to give away anything that isn't within the designated schedule.

I personally am a "plodder" mainly because in recent years I cannot usually finish more than two or three chapters of a book before falling asleep, so I do enjoy talking about each chapter and each character we meet as we go along.

Thank you, Jane, for bringing this to our attention!

Lorrie

Mal, your post informed us that Bast, the Egyptian cat goddess, was "one of Ra's avenging deities who punish the sinful and the enemies of Egypt. This is of course in keeping with her totem animal, the cat...."
It seems that Francine's cat is a vengeful presence, however we label her (him? Timmy?) I think it's a female witha male name, not sure. I wonder if there's a connection between the concepts of "totem" and "familiar"?

MmeW and Lorrie and the others who are just reading like I am with the discussion schedule in mind, what's your opinion so far? (1) great story? (2)soap opera? (3)basis for a honkytonk bad "country song"...[ you can hum along ;0)] "The Silver Fox stole my gal while I flipped burgers in the rich lady's greasy spoon..."

Can you tell that so far both (2) and (3) are ahead of (1) in my mind?

Ah, well...on to Part II for next week. Maybe Miles will find a backbone...

I love Richard Russo's writing, and I see intricacies of plot (I hope) that are intriguing (but then I love a mystery). (As you know, Mal, I was unable to finish Angle, but because of strictly personal reasons, not because I didn't like the book, so I can't really compare. I intend to finish it one day and read the archived discussion.)

It seems to me that the Pulitzers vary a lot in literary quality (List of Winners) partially because of weak competition (some years there were no winners) and perhaps this is one of the lighter-weight ones. (Advise and Consent, which I loved in my youth, by the way, I think is kind of a potboiler as I recall.) However, EF was up against The Corrections, which in my opinion was a much more brilliant literary work. I wonder if Russo got it, as sometimes happens, for his canon. (It's hard to judge not having finished the book yet.)

I notice Michael Chabon won last year for Kavalier and Clay, which I haven't read yet. But his Wonder Boys resembled Russo's Straight Man, at least in subject matter (academic with mid-life crisis) and I preferred SM, though WB was probably more strongly plotted. Russo's humor just gives me a kick. So I vote for (1), not (2) or (ha 3).

Oh, Jane, I cracked up when I read your post! Now you've got me humming a country tune and tapping my foot, as I type in (2) and (3) as answers to your question. Hahaha

MmweW: I, too, love Russo's writing. I think the way he fleshes out his characters is truly wonderful, and even though some people can't relate to his description of small-town life, I feel right at home with his writing about Empire Falls.

Lorrie

It seems there's an unwritten, unspoken rule regarding the Pulitzer Prize for Fiction: Make the judges laugh and you pretty well ruin your chances.

But in the case of "Empire Falls," the judges on the committee obviously take their comedy as seriously as does Russo.Apparently this is the first comic novel to win the coveted prize since "A Confederacy of Dunces" back in 1981. (What about "Kavalier and Clay?")

Some people see a comparison here to some of Stephen King's books. Read this comment:

Empire Falls

Lorrie

Thanks, MmeW, for the list. And that was a good article, Lorrie. I liked the line,"Empire Falls is a place that feels lived in." The writer believes that Russo's book succeds because he identifiies with his own material, especially the setting. Setting and characters work for me, too. I believe Miles. I don't think he is a Casper Milquetoast personality; rather, I think he is responding to complex forces in his life that he has not been able to overcome. True, he seems very compliant where Janine and Walt ant Francine are concerned, but the way life has panned out for him, I think he believes that he has to stay and satisfy the needs of others, including Francine Whiting and his mother (who really didn't want himt stay in EF, but who did feel and convey a certain obligation to the Whitings), and Tuck. Also, if I were married to Janine, I would welcome a situation that kept me at a distance from her! Maybe MIles accepts her marriage to Walt becuse he hasn't really been comfortable with her chronic discontenment.

Before we move on to Part 2, I wanted to say something about the whole segment of young Miles' vacation with his mother, on Martha's Vineyard, when he first met Charlie Mayne. Besides the inevitable conjecture and wondering about who this man actually was, I was struck by the very emotional chord of this whole bit. I personally thought it was very poignant and bittersweet. Although there was much to be read between the lines here, one couldn't help but wish Miles' mother could find just a bit of happiness. Was anyone else touched by this scenario?

Tomorrow we move on to the next part, and I have a few more questions I would like to place in the heading. In the meantime, how do you feel about the book so far, aside from Jane's witty assesment? Still think it's soap opera, Jane? Country western tragedy? I sort of like all these characters, I'm getting to know them.

Lorrie

Just a little aside here, to say CONGRATULATIONS, MMEw, for your winning entry in the Birthday Bash page! GOOD FOR YOU!

Birthday Bash

Lorrie

Thanks, guys. I'll miss you next week, but I'll be back next Monday! I found the MV part quite poignant, and I loved Charlie as seen through Miles's eyes. The guy who could make things happen.

I, too, was surprised at Russo's descriptions of the kids making fun of Cindy. I went to school with kids who were handicapped...my cousin had braces on both legs and walked with crutches because of "infantile paralysis" and I never saw anyone ...kids or adults...make fun of anyone. Yes, perhaps a small child made a comment or asked a question, but it was quickly explained.

I'm amazed at how Miles is in love with Charlene but married Janine and Cindy is in love with Miles and Grace is married to Max but apparently quite taken with Charlie Mayne (how they know each other not yet know).

Max seems to be in love with Max. Obnoxious is too nice a word.

The one character who really bothers me is Zach. He seems to me to be a real control freak and his behavior [what appears to me to be a need to control others] frightens me.

I meant "comic" in the sense of some of Russo's character, Mal. You must admit, that obnoxious as he may be, Max is funny. Tick's "Omigod, Omigod" girl friene is also funny, I think. But yes, he's very serious about the way the story is unfolding. I like the way Russo intersperses these flash-backs with the present--in my mind he's creating a real sense of suspense.

I know first-hand how cruel kids can be. I was always a plump, rotund kid, not obese, but "pleasingly plump." One Valentine's day in grade school I received a huge, gaily decorated valentine which I opened in class, and which the message was: "Happy Valentine's Day, you big fat pig!" Needless to say, I cried all the way home. I can still remember that day.

It looks like we will be rattling around in here by ourselves for a few days. Ah, well, I have a lot of reading to catch up on!

Lorrie

Mal,you say "All the love for someone else besides the one you're supposed to love tells me that these people are pretty darned unhappy with what they have."

Pretty good insight there. It does look as though none of them were perfectly matched, doesn't it? You talk about Zack being a control freak, I feel that his father Jimmy Mintner is much more menacing. I have this strange premonition that we will be hearing more about this ugly-natured little man in the future.

I like Russo's writing---on page 161(paperback) the last chapter, the one with the description of Mrs. Whiting, was some of the finest writing I've seen in a while.

Lorrie

Lorrie,

as you know, I've a hard time "letting go" of a specific book after an involvement that lasts for weeks. I need time to let everything "gel", as I call it. That was true for THE HUMAN STAIN, MATING, and BLINDNESS, to name just three, long before I became a DL.

Of course we can't (and shouldn't) hang on indefinitely ! So I have ordered EF from BN, and I'll be "in" as soon as I can.

Traude! It's good to see your name here. Yes, I am well aware of the difficulties you had in your last discussion with "Angle of Repose," but at least if you get into this book the tempo is quite different. We're having what I believe is an ideal discussion, a quiet, reflective commentary on the novel and its fascinating characters.

By all means get the book--there is still plenty of time. we will all be delighted to hear from you.

Lorrie

Yes, indeedy, this Chapter 9 tells us a lot. In fact, the whole narrative seems to tighten up a bit as we go on, from what some, like Jane, think was a sort of "soap opera" beginning. There's a lot about the "Cat from Hell", for one thing, and another is we get an introduction to Cindy, who is apparently an important player. I like the way Russo shows us Francine Whiting. I dont' think I'm jumping ahead when I say that we see more of her intuitiveness when she decides to give Miles driving lessons.

One guy there you love to hate---------------Coach Brown!

Lorrie

Boy, I agree with keeping an eye on Jimmy Minty, too, but Zach really bothers me. There's that comment about something he did to Tick "last spring" when he was angry. I suspect some sort of physical thing...striking, pushing, hitting, whatever...it was just sort of put in there in one sentence and then Tick went on. I'll have to try and find it. It made me think she fears him...and with good reason. She knows she can talk honestly to him when he's "manic"...but how about in his other "moods"...makes me uneasy...very uneasy about his "moods" and his ...well...almost stalking of Tick. Is he just "upset" she's not gaga over him like everyone else?

That Francine is an interesting woman...giving driving lessons to a kid like Miles. Wonder what her ulterior motive is. I don't think it's just a "gracious heart." Maybe I'm too suspicious of all of them. ;0)

Jane, I can see where I am going to have to go back on some of these chapters and reread them. I'm afraid I'm missing something important, and I can see how ominous Zack's treatment of Tick could be. I'll look, too.

Lorrie

In my hardback from the Library...pg. 187...very top...rest of paragraph that began on pg. 186. She says he'll start belittling her, making fun of the things she cares about, flirt with other girls to make her jealous, "treat her like shit" .."and even that isn't the worse"...."Tick doesn't even like to think about the worse, though last spring before they broke up Zack promised nothing like that would ever happen again."

Ah, yeah...that Zack is a real piece of BAD NEWS, as I read Tick's retelling of their "relationship."

I found it, Jane, thank you. Yes, that definitely does sound sinister. One thing this author is doing--he is bringing alive all the agonies and heartbreaks of teenager life. I do like Tick, I think she is mature for her age, and there is a potentially wonderful relationship between her and her father.

Lorrie

Those interviews that Miles has with Mrs. Whiting puzzle me. I don't profess to be psychologically intuitive, but it seems to me there's always a sort of undercurrent whenever Mrs Whiting talks to Miles. A kind of double meaning? It's puzzling. I'm sure there's much more to this relationship as we go further on. Does anyone else feel this?

Lorrie

Yes, Lorrie..I "feel" it too...but I don't know what it is.

Maybe it's just good old Miles the Doormat that she can order about and he obeys like a sheep.

Mal: As you've spent your life in music, I spent my adult life with teenagers. I've seen teenage boys who behaved and acted like Zach, and the way they turned out as adults is not pleasant. A number of them are regularly in the paper as they are in and out of jail for assault and battery, domestic abuse, interfering with official acts, etc. Based on that 36 years, I think Zach's not someone I'd want anyone I cared about to be involved with in any way, shape or form. Maybe he'll turn out to be the Model Citizen and perhaps go into the clergy, but based on his behavior and what Tick says, unless there's some life-changing event, I'd have to bet not. ;0)

I, too, think John Voss has apparently been so emotionally neglected/abandoned that he may well suffer with some form of mental illness. He reminds me of someone who's been so beaten down he has no feeling/no spirit left. Indeed, what a sad child he is. It's emotionally painful to even read about him, I think.

About the Voss character:

I don't feel anything really sinister about this boy, only pity. Apparently Tick sees something in him--she seems to take him under her wing, like getting him the job as busboy. He's the typical "victim," ripe for harrassment from his fellow students and jerks like Zack, and by the way, what was that that Voss was eating for lunch? ................."shoveling the oily, stringy substance into his mouth, causing Tick to wonder what it would be like to kiss a boy after he'd eaten something so disgusting"......

Tuna salad?

Lorrie

Lorrie...I, too, didn't know what John is eating...oily brings to mind sardines, but I really don't have any idea.

Gee, catfood? I've never had a cat, have no idea what canned catfood looks like.

Mal...great discription of Janine. She sounds like a gal with the "seven year itch" or a mid-life crisis or something. She does indeed sound more immature than her teenage daughter. And yet, I think, in her moments of looking at things realistically, she realizes that the "Silver Fox" is not exactly a 100% perfect hunk. I think she sees more than a few "flaws" there, but I suppose in Empire Falls at her age there aren't a lot of male "options" ?

Yep, that Janine is something else. I assume that before their separation the whole family of Miles, Janine and Tick were fairly regular churchgoers, the result of the constant urging of Grace.

but now Janine has replaced Catholicism with aerobics and latched on to an insufferable hearty health-club owner. I don't feel that there is much of a relationship between Janine and her daughter. Not like Miles and Tick. How true, Jane, the pickin's are poor indeed, in Empire Falls for a single woman.

Your last paragraph in Post #115 says what I've been feeling all along, Mal. I think we're being built up for a whammy climax, well that's all right. I'm ready!

Lorrie

I want to say here that I am really grateful to you both for hanging in here and holding down the fort with me.. We seem to be in a ship full of survivors, it looks like most of our EF readers are in Washington. Perhps some of them will join us when they return, but thank you much in the meantime. In a way, it's like a cozy coffee klaatch with three neighbors sitting gossiping over a cup of coffee.

Lorrie

I'm still here, Lorrie! Just having problems getting down to the business of discussion!
MAL, What does Francine expect of Miles? If he’s been a “good boy long enough,” why is she trying to bribe him to marry Cindy – wouldn't that be good boy behavior? Maybe Francine thinks that love is an illusion, that financial security, wealth, even, would be so much better for Miles than he realizes. (I think that's her temperament.) We know that Grace wanted him to go to the prom with Cindy, but we also know that she wanted him to move away from Empire Falls and make a new and better life for himself. Maybe Grace never intended the relationship to continue in any serious way beyond the teenage years.
I do believe that Miles took his mother and her wishes very seriously. I think he is confused about what she really thought would be best for him. As a child on Martha’s Vineyard with her and Charlie Mayne he intuited her need for that bit of happiness, and that’s why he never objected and never said anything to Max.
Francine and Cindy -- a sad situation! There's a place where Russo says how nice it would be for Cindy to be able to make it down to the gazebo, the spot with the best view and the place where Francine conducts her interviews with Miles, but because no appropriate walkway or ramp has ever been installed, she cannot go there on her crutches. He depicts her as looking longingly in that direction as she hangs onto the doorknob. Francine is a real iceberg, isn't she?

JO! I'm so glad you're still around!

Yes, I've been wondering all along about the way Francine seems to regard her daughter. I don't detect much warmth there, do you? and when she warned Miles that Cindy had overstated her recovery, she seemed almost glad to shake her head. Strange.

Another person in the story, a small part, really, was the detestable Coach Brown. For some reason I took an instant dislike to that man! He is not only obtuse, but it seems to me he has a real mean streak of cruelty.

Lorrie

No, Mal, she isn't! She's a very smart lady who seems to know how to make the most of life situations, and she likes Miles enough to wish he could catch on to her philosophy. The difference between them includes compassion: Miles has it, she doesn't. Maybe there are other traits, too, but I think that's the one that keeps him hesitating on the brink of life-changing choices. He can't marry someone he doesn't care for. He thought marriage to Janine would work, that they cared for each other enough, even though he was probably eluding an alliance with Cindy. A union with her now wouldn't be compatible with his character.
I also laughed a lot in the Mr. Brown episode, sharing the princial's estimate of his behavior and his enjoyment of his discomfort. Brown's another one of Russo's sharp characteriztions, this time of the self-absorbed jock who drifted into education becuse that was the only way he could continue to be inolved with his life's passion after high school. He cares about the way the kids reflect on him, not about what they need.

Jo:

"He cares about the way the kids reflect on him, not about what they need.".............. That sums up Coach Brown neaty. Good observation.

Yes, Mal, I thought the driving lesson was hilarious, also, besides giving us another insight into Francine's philosophies.

Did anyone pay much attention to the confrontation between Miles and his brother, from page 123 (paperback) to 125? Miles started out by questioning David about his marijuana involvement, and the whole scene becomes one of argument between the brothers as to the potential fate of the Empire Grill. It's a very dramatic scene, and it also gives us a little more understanding of how Charlene feels about Miles.

Lorrie

How quiet we all are! I've been watching C-span, showing the Washington Book festival, trying to catch a glimpse, maybe, of comrades there. So far no results, but there are some very good talks by noted authors with a call-in question period after.

Lorrie

I'm sorry you haven't been feeling that great, Mal. Sure hope you're better today.

I've been thinking a lot about the attention Russo gave to the two priests in this book. The whole subject of Catholicism, for that matter, as it applies here. How would you characterize the impact of religion on Miles and Grace? Does attending church genuinely comfort them, or is it a convenient way of hiding from the problems in their lives and the decisions they have made?

What does Father Mark offer Miles that he cannot get from his other relationships? Is Miles drawn to him only because he is a priest?

Russo depict both priests as flawed men, Father Mark with his sexual longings, and Father Tom with dementia?

I wonder what sort of penance the younger Father Tom gave Grace? I have a feeling that the now demented priest was once a rigid moralist. Also, the very thought of Father Tom's speaking to others about what he had heard in the confessional shocked me, probably from my early days as a then practicing Catholic.

Lorrie

Hi, all! Funny, but in my paperback, the scene between Miles and David that you speak of is around 115! There must be more than one paperback available.
Rereadoing this part has heightened my feelings abouyt Miles' reluctance to take any action that might meet with Mrs. W's. disapproval. WHY??? As David points out, he has so much more to gain and more of an opportunity to give Tick a better life if he acts in his own interests NOW. So why all the hesitancy? Something deep inside makes him feel that he can't or shouldn't, and I don't know if it's just his temperament or if he is carrying Grace's guilt over the affair with Charlie Mayne, or if he thinks his mother didn't really earn the money she was able to send to him. Fat chance, I say. Mrs. W. would never have remained involved in a contract that didn't pay off for her! If nothing else, Grace undoubtedly provided the mothering for Cindy that Francine just could not.
About the priests, I agree that they are real human beings, as flawed and problem-ridden as the rest of us. I think Miles and Mark are really friends, and that Fr. Tom is as nutty as anyone else can become who is suffering from that disease. Russo shows his symptoms as exaggerations of his formerly rigid, moralistic personality: now he reacts wildly and profanely to the notion that someone is truly a sinner, in his estimation. I love the combination with Max!
One of the things I like about this book is the way Russo weaves vignettes into the action -- little short stories, like Fr. Mark's and Fr. Tom's with Max, and the student driving business with Miles and the coach and the principal. Some of them are strong enough to stand on their own as stories.
Early religious orientation never leaves you. Even if you decide that it's illogical, or that you don't need it any more, there's a void if and when you abandon it. It was impossible for Grace, and Miles shows the influence in his own hesitancy about asserting himself if it means inconvenience for someone else, especially Francine Whiting.

Jo, you are absolutly right. That scene between Miles and David shows up on pages 115-121 in my paperback. I don't know what I was thinking about then. So sorry.

It's been a little hard for me to concentrate. For several days now I've had the most painful earaches, (of all things) and have lost what little hearing I did have. So last night I couldn't stand it any more and asked one of my neighbors to take me to the Emergency Ward, and sure enough it's an infection in the inner ear, just like we all used to get when we were children! So with ear drops and anti-biotics it should be cleared up in about ten days, but it does make you wonder doesn't it, Mal? What next? On top of all this stuff involving the constant use of oxygen, etc,. etc. And so on.

Lorrie

But to get back to the book................ This is a real pleasure to read. I am enjoying the suspense of knowing that eventually there will be a huge climax, with the answers to all our mysteries, has to be!

Lorrie

One of the interesting things about this novel:

It closely and relentlessly (but not heartlessly) explores some of the many, many ways there are to fail as a child, a parent, and a human being, by following the generations of Robys and Whitings, and their intertwined histories, in Empire Falls.

On page 246, do you think there is something intuitive in Miles' thoughts as he and Cindy (years earlier) were waiting for her mother to pick them up and he saw the black Lincoln idling at the curb.........."but then a strange thought crossed his mind: what the Lincoln reminded him of was Death's coach in Emily Dickinson's poem?"

Lorrie

Lorrie, sorry about your earache! I remember ear pain as about the worst I've ever experienced. I hope it's over now!
Maybe the image of death stopping for the speaker in Dickinson's poem relates to Miles' own destiny: he feels even at this young age that he is being chosen -- not getting a chance to choose. He wouln't have chosen to be Cindy's companion and tutor without prompting and pressure from his mother, but he doesn't resist very much, either. He feels fate sweeping him up, and he doesn't know how to resist.

Thank you, All!

On Tuesday we move on to Part Three of the book, but I wanted to mention about the italicized passages at the ending of part one, there's a great deal of information there. Not only of the humorous driving lesson scene, but the sadness that Miles felt as a boy while he watched his mother's attention turn more and more to the Whiting household and he realizes that his mother had found another family to replace his.

There is more about Cindy here, too, and on page 140 Miles' mother keeps saying,"I can't bear it, Miles. I can't stand to see the way that child has been ostracized, the way her heart has been broken each and every day. We have a duty, Miles, you see that? We have a moral duty!" He knows that when his mother is saying, "we" she is actually saying "you."

Lorrie

Does it bother anybody else that in the passage Lorrie has cited above, Momma Grace is as manipulative of Miles as Francine Whiting later is? No, it was not "we" who had a duty to Cindy. It was Grace, perhaps, who felt this "duty" for whatever reason, but poor Miles who apparently never developed a "backbone"/"intestinal fortitude"/"gumption"/whatever the word is. Perhaps he sees his mother becoming so emotionally involved with the Whitings that he's afraid to lose her and so does whatever she wants? Guess I'd better get reading into Part III.

Welcome back Jane!

You know, on rereading that passage, i think you're right. Grace is as every bit as manipulative as Francine, although in a different way. Her attitude has such a bearing on Miles' future decisions.

Mal, what an unhappy childhood you must have had! Children can be so cruel.

I was intrigued by your term "psychic twin." it's so apt, though, judging from the almost obsessive manner in which Grace tends to Cindy. Because they were born so close together in time?

I've been rereading some bits about Max and Father Tom. I'm getting an uneasy feeling about those two.

Lorrie

As you can see, I have placed some new questions in the heading just above, please feel free to comment on them as you will.

As we move on here, I can see that there is a a great deal of good stuff ahead. I enjoyed reading about the Homecoming football game very much. In all the years that I spent in small towns I never escaped the fact that the biggest social event, not just athletic, mind you, was the Friday night football game, during the season. the whole town turns out for these events, and they can be very exciting.

At that football game, we see Jimmy Minty's true nature, as he applauds and cheers his son Zack for the brutal attack Zack made on one of the other team's players. That day, you can see that Miles is playing a dangerous game when he subtly mocks Jimmy, and you feel that this is no time to be making an enemy of Jimmy Mintner. The man will have a ton of unleashed resentments, all directed toward Miles.

Lorrie

Yup. "Surrealistic" is a good word. That whole scene is bizarre, I see what you mean, Mal. I did laugh at the shocking news (to Janine, anyway) that her future husband and great sex idol, is SIXTY YEARS OLD!!

On page 260, Russo made a statement, (a conclusion by Miles) that I found quite striking. It goes like this: "One of the odd things about middle age was the the strange decisions a man discovers he's made by not really making them, like allowing friends to drift away through simple neglect."

Lorrie

I’m desperately trying to catch up after DC, so have a few comments about past posts.

Whether or not this is a comic novel, the driving lesson reduced me to hysterics for some reason. It must have touched a nerve because it took me 15 minutes to read two pages I was laughing so hard. Although much of the humor was visual, the coach’s arm stuck in the seat and Otto leaning over the front to brake with his hands, I don’t think I have ever laughed so hard in a movie. I sympathize with Miles, too. My birthday is in November so I was as much as a year younger than the other kids in the class and had less driving experience so for years was hesitant at the wheel. Too bad he didn’t apply Mrs. Whiting’s advice about pushing the accelerator to the rest of his life.

I love Francine’s opinion that "teenagers belonged in institutions for the criminally insane." My husband used to say they should be locked up when they hit 13 and released at 20; however, he was a wonderful teacher.

And then Coach Brown, Mrs. Rodrigue, Mr. Boniface, "the cutthroat savagery of high school romance," Cindy’s tormentors. Russo sure knows his high schools. And I love Miles’ point about manners: "The ones who were most polite always seemed fundamentally untrustworthy."

Miles notes that "the second thing [Tick] said often contradicted the first. Things were going okay. Except they weren’t." Somehow I was expecting Tick and Miles to be closer when we first saw him looking down the street for her.

Lorrie,, you praised the description of Francine, and there I find Russo’s touches of whimsy that I like so much.

Whereas some people’s attitude suggested that perhaps they knew something you didn’t, Mrs. Whiting’s implied that she knew everything you didn’t.

She was elegantly dressed, especially for the backyard.

…her wrists alive with jewelry, not scar tissue…

And so forth.

Jane, I too find Zach ominous, very scary, obviously an abuser. I just can’t understand Tick’s resuming relations with him when she has had the guts to call it quits. I should think loneliness would be preferable. However, I’m not a teenager. (could you guess?) Did you notice that Miles remembered that Zach had applied for a part-time job last spring? But John Voss got it—will that make Zach even meaner toward John?

Mal, good description of Janine. She reminds me of so many mothers in Las Vegas who are trying to look younger than their daughters. You wonder what kind of direction, if any, the kids get at home.

John Voss: I was thinking cat food, too. But I can’t help but wonder what horrific thing Horace witnessed the boy doing when he was walking home from the bar. (That’s what Horace knows about the boy that we don’t.)

Interesting, too, is the relationship between David and Charlene, as Miles notes their "verbal shorthand." And during the David/Miles confrontation how Miles’ resentment rises up as he detects David’s "ingrained irresponsibility" resurfacing. Quite judgmental, I think.

With regard to the big climax (which I am licking my chops over), that’s why I think this discussion is so valuable, for we are able together to spot so many clues.

Sorry this is about last week, but I had to stick my two cents'worth in!

HOORAY! HOORAY! MMEw IS BACK, AND WITH A VENGEANCE!

It's so good to see you posting again, MmeW, and I liked your output on how you see these fascinating characters. I've noticed something here, it's odd how some of us view the characters in different ways, some we can't abide, and others seem to hit a sympathetic note. I think that is one of the most distinguishing styles of this wonderful author---his characters are never "cardboard cutouts" or predictable actors in a play, but very, very real. He can also write comic and even tragic scenes almost side by side without upsetting his literary flow of words. I like his style very much, and now I can see why he won the prize.

Another thing, Russo seems to have a grasp of the agonies of teenage life, I think I read somewhere that his own daughter helped him a lot in this respect, While writing the book, he and his daughter would discuss her activities at school almost daily, and he says he gained a wonderfu insight into the teenage mind from that.

We are all poised to get the answers to a lot of perplexing questions, and it must be agonizing for those of you who have read the complete book not to comment on what's ahead! We all appreciate your efforts not to give anything away.

Lorrie

Thanks for the welcome back, Lorrie. I loved that quote you cited above: "One of the odd things about middle age was the the strange decisions a man discovers he's made by not really making them..." Inertia is a powerful force.

There are two other things about part two that struck my fancy. Miles thinking how terrible it is to be a teenager, concludes: "That, very simply, was what adulthood must be all about—acquiring the skill to bury things more deeply."

Miles asks David if he thinks Max has a conscience, and David says, "'Sure he does....' Then, after a thoughtful beat: 'No slave to it, though, is he?'"

Thus ends Chapter 12, and I thought it was such an effective way to underscore what a slave Miles is to his.

Mal, that last line you quoted is one of my favorites from the book! It says so much about life as we live it, and so vividly! Our impossible desires "...as eternal as polished marble." Perfect!
MmeW, maybe Tick resumes a tentative relationship with Zack in the hope that he will leave John alone. It's so important to Zack to be affirmed by admiration and acceptance that it may even outweigh the necessity for having someone to pick on, and I think Tick knows that!

Lorrie, I think the marriages of Emprire Falls that we know about make Francine look like an oracle (question #9). Her own marriage to C. B. Whiting came about because he wanted to appease, at least partially, his father, who wanted him to resume a high-profile life in keeping with family achievement. Francine is the type for that life. Miles married Janine to escape the possibility of having to marry Cindy (Grace's idea, maybe), and Janine marries Walt to escape boredom with Miles and to feel like a sex kitten at forty. (What a blow to find out he's sixty!!! I laughed, too!) And the outfit on the chilly day at the football game is as inappropriate as the situation she's got herself into!
I can't remember why Grace married Max. Are we told?

Jo...Those are questions I hope we get answers to...why Grace married Max and why Miles married Janine.

Jo:

Wasn't there a brief page not too far back where Grace tells Miles, "Your father wasn't always this way?" I remember seeing it and I am going back to see if I can find it.

Yes, all those dysfunctional marriages! It's enough to give Ann Lander pause, isn't it?

Lorrie

At the end of Chapter 18, I've been following Miles on that fateful Sunday. First, he accidentally discovers an old picture of the office staff from the old Empire Shirt Factory, including a young and beautiful Grace Roby. Then he discovers the picture of C.B. Whiting is none other than his mother's lover, Charley Mayne.

Russo keeps the suspense building as he describes Miles' reaction as "the feeling of a faint distant rumbling, as of a freight train drawing near." and he mentions that same premonition several times later on. The one thing in particular that I noticed was that after the shock of realizing that Francine was never really his friend, on the contrary, Miles seemed to have gained some backbone and gumption. Hence the visit to Janine's mother's bar, to talk about making the place into a bar/restaurant as David wants him to.

All right, let's hear it from you all. When Max, (in a flashback) gleefully tells Miles that Grace is pregnant, do you think that Max suspects that the baby isn't his? In this episode, Max and Miles actually seem to be hitting it off.

And oh, Father Tom, and Max! Those two old reprobates have taken off for the Florida Keys, after stealing the Collection cash and the parish car. Will we hear more about them later?

Lorrie

I've been thinking about what Mal said about the reason who married who and that it doesn't matter. I agree now that I think about that. They do have to live with their choices, although it does indicate to me what I see as poor judgment in the choices or in handling whatever it was that developed in the marriage. But, that's their problem. I wonder about the "oh so 'good' Grace"...urging Miles to date/whatever with Cindy, etc. and all that "doing what's right"...where does that come from? HER guilty conscience over her fling/whatever with CB/Charlie...so now her son must be morally right, etc?

Did I miss the part about why Miles didn't graduate from college?

I hope Tick can escape them all and build a life for herself somewhere else.

Some of us wondered about the odd relationship between Francine and her daughter Cindy. The description Russo gives us on page 351 (paperback) is truly heartrending:

" Grace was glad not to have to share her thoughts about one of the sadder human relationships she had ever encountered. It was as if mother and daughter had somehow managed to disappoint each other so thoroughly that neither one was at all vested in the other anymore. They were like ghosts, each inhabiting different dimensions of the same physical space, so different that Grace half expected to see one pass through the other when their paths crossed."

Wonderful writing, isn't it?

Lorrie

Do you think Cindy was simply being obstinate by refusing to do any physical therapy after her surgery? Or was it heartsickness over missing her father whom she had expected to return from Mexico?

Mrs. Whiting's cold and unsympathetic explanation of why she had not allowed this, actually disturbed the surgeon who had suggested it, and I thought Russo's quip, "as he listened to her dispassionate profiles of her husband and daughter, he found it difficult not to arive at a moral judgment, though not one he was inclined to share with her, at least not until his services has been paid in full." Very amusing.

Lorrie

I kept getting the feeling that Walt and Bea had had some kind of relationship in the past from the way they ignored each other. "The Silver Fox didn’t have anything against her that Janine knew of, but he did seem to have trouble remembering Bea’s existence." But perhaps that’s because he and Bea are exactly the same age, which he goes to such lengths to hide.

Is David CB’s or not? We know Grace was pregnant before MV, and Miles has said David is like Max (though I don’t think he is). If David is CB’s, maybe that’s why Francine has taken Miles under her wing and ignored David.

I think the "happiness is carcinogenic" line is the whole key to Miles, almost as though he has made an unconscious decision to avoid happiness at all cost. It more or less explains his apathy or passivity.

I loved the description of Francine and Cindy’s stubbornness: FRW breaks every project down into doable parts and accomplishes everything she sets out to do, whereas Cindy views the enormity of the task before her and gives up before she starts. I think Cindy’s refusal to do physical therapy was maybe equal parts obstinacy and longing for her father.

My question: who ran over Cindy and dragged her down the street? We have a detailed accounting of Max hitting the cat (ugh! that description gave me the willies), but will we never know exactly what happened to Cindy?

And how sad that Cindy has been deprived of her dad and denied love from Francine (because of similarity to Dad?). Grace was more like a mother to her; was it easier for Grace to love her in view of her similarity to CB?

I haven’t paid much attention to dreams, but the recent references make me want to go back and look. Miles dreamt about Tick’s death (I suppose that’s what he meant when he said she appeared to be asleep under the bleachers but wasn’t). I’m not sure I really understand this line: "Like her father, Cindy was subject to vivid dreams, which she invariably surrendered without a fight." Any ideas?

Then there were Jimmy Minty’s nightmares in the wrong frat house. What a horrible scene that was! I agree with what someone said about the richness of the characters. I felt real sympathy when Jimmy explained the difference between him and Miles, about sensing the frat boys knew they belonged and he didn’t (like his father and Walter Cronkite), about how he felt real joy to be returning to EF, and his appeal to the folks in EF: "They like it that they’re more like me than they are like you. They look at me and they see the town they grew up in." And poor Miles can’t help confirming Jimmy’s outsider/insider suspicions.

Then Jimmy goes too far and says that that’s why he’ll be the next chief of police. Well, we know who has promised him that. It appears Francine wants her two minions in the key positions of chief of police and mayor.

It really came as no surprise that James is on her payroll since their tête-à-tête in the DMV, but it does make me wonder why she is having Jimmy spy on Miles.

Miles's delayed reaction in recognizing CB in the picture, coupled with on-coming train premonitions, was much more dramatic than instant recognition. I wondered why the delay until I reread "Had she gotten there a few seconds sooner, she'd have seen him put the tip of his index finger over the lower half of C.B. Whiting's bearded face...." because in the MV section (pb 159), Charlie Mayne's "face was smooth."

And then we realize that Grace, the only person not looking at the camera, must have been looking at CB.

However, Russo makes a mistake here by saying the picture was taken in 1966, a year before the factory closed. It was more like a year before MV, where Miles was 9 (1967?). Miles was 15 when the factory, which had been sold 3 years earlier, closed, according to chapter 22, which would make it 1973. In fact, I am seeing some definite chronology problems, which I'll explore more later after I think them through (I've been taking time reference notes, suspecting that time would be important here).

MmeW: I wish I'd kept a time line, as you've done. I've become confused about what happened when, and I look forward to seeing what you've wisely kept notes on.

I'm also now very curious about why Miles didn't go back and finish the last semester of college. Would that have been the mid-late 1970s?

Yes, I suspect ol' all brawn-no brains Walt doesn't want Janine to realize he's as old as her mother!

Mal, my point exactly. Miles had to cover up the beard, which Charlie Mayne had shaved off before MV, with his finger to recognize him. I cited the same quote you did, as you'll note.

Jane, errands first. Then I'm going to tackle all the time references. I think they've mostly been pretty consistent, though I think Russo may have needed a left-brained editor.

CB was banished the town immediately after the MV incident, so I doubt he'd have had time to grow a beard and get a picture taken. Besides, MV took place in 1967 and the picture in 1966. One of the signs of an extra-marital affair is changing your appearance (for the better), dressing better, new hairdos, etc.

For me time was very important in trying to piece together the pieces of the puzzle. A large part of the suspense of the novel was the back and forth, non-chronological sequence, as we discover little by little all the elements of this story. The ability to do that accurately is the duty of the author and a great skill, I think. Faulkner's Sound and Fury strikes me as a good example. I read somewhere that he had charts posted all over his room. If it's boring to you, just skip my posts.

Wow! Wonderful posts here, even though opinions differ. That's what these discussions are all about, aren't they? a way to discuss a book sanely and calmly, offering a differing opinion whenever it suits us.

I must confess I was confused also by the time frame, I kept going back to see if there was any more description of Whiting around the time of the MV vacation. I'm so glad you kept notes, MmeW, and I'll be interested to see what other little lapses Russo may have made.

MmeW, (May I call you Susan?) your grasp of all these different personalities is wonderful, and I agree with you on so many conjectures: Is David CB's son? What happened with the automobile accident that crippled Cindy? And yes, Jane, I too wonder just when it was that Miles came home after dropping out of college, There isn't a lot of that here.

Janine's mother Bea and the Silver Fox? Why do i find that so funny?

Mal: Yes, the economic impact of a plant like that closing is not unimportant at all. It's a tragic event for a small town like that, just as the foreclosures of family farms affect the small towns around them. It certainly affected the future of Grace Roby.

Lorrie

Actually, this shouldn’t be very tedious (though it sure was working on it), but it helped clear things in my mind.

The year is 2000 because Walt was born in 1940 and he’s 60. This is key, I think, because it’s hard to place everything in its proper order without a base year; Russo is very fond of xxx years ago. (# in parens are pb page numbers).

Miles is 42 (118), Janine is 41 (108), Tick is 15 (sophomore), Cindy is 42 (born on same day as Miles—154), Jimmy is 42 (same class as Miles, as are Doris Rodrigue and Otto Meyer), Charlene is 45 (43, 69), Walt is 60, Bea is 60 (194), Max is 70 (130), Francine is 70-something (35) (although if she is 29 in 1947, then she is 82 now) .

1937 CB returns to Empire Falls in his late 20’s (after a decade of traveling after college I would say at least 30)
1947 CB builds mansion; marries Francine (10 years younger 29-30?)
1958 Miles born
1959 Bea starts tending bar (194); Father Tom comes to rectory
1963 Cindy has accident as little girl (165) hit by green Pontiac (this date approx)
1966 Empire Falls shirt factory picture
1967 Martha’s Vineyard interlude (Miles 9, Grace 30); CB leaves town for 10 years; Hornus Whiting takes over the factory
1968 David born
1969 Max starts working in the Keys (129)
1970 Miles enrolls in Catholic school (91); Horace becomes reporter on the EG (123); Francine sells factories (342)
1973 Factories close; Miles’s sophomore year (342); Miles starts work at EGrill
1974 Grace goes to work for Francine (343)
1974-5 Miles’s junior year; Max runs over cat—yuk (231)
1977 CB returns to commit suicide (128)
1980 Janine & Miles marry (112); Miles takes over Egrill*; Cindy attempts suicide (160); Grace is ill (starting when we don’t know)
1997 Max runs over mayor’s dog; loses license (125); David has accident (31)
1998 Walt threatens to take Miles’s wife
1999 January, 2000 Miles & Janine split (67)
2000 September, 2000 Current happenings

"nearly 20 years ago" (35), "20 years ago" (118, 63), but Miles was 21 when he came back (103), which would have been 21 years ago.

I only found two major flaws besides Francine’s age: (1) During the MV interlude (1967), Miles says that sometimes Max disappeared for months in the Keys, but Max said he started working in the Keys in 1969. (2) "Twenty years ago, he’d asked Cindy to the prom." (175) They would have both been 22, a bit long in the tooth for a high school prom.

Yes, call me Susan. Somehow I think David is CB's son: Miles sees something familiar in the Whiting portraits and, as you say, Grace and CB obviously knew each other prior to MV and were planning to run off to Puerto Vallarta (149). Obviously Francine had other plans, including her "pregnant wife" story. CB never returned, but Francine, who was supposedly joining him, was there for Grace to apologize to a week or so later. I can't wait to see if Timmy and David meet and if Timmy is nice to him since he is OK with family.

I found more dreams in my perusals: CB dreams of conversations and realizes that he has been conversing with his youthful self; Tick dreams of the snake, Miles dreams of his father on MV.

I also found evidence of more abuse: Jimmy's father used to beat his wife and Jimmy verbally abuses his own (93, 287). I guess with Zach, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. I do admire the way Russo manages to dangle all these loose threads so that we can tie them up.

There is no doubt that the machinations of corporations often end up devasting whole communities (I heard recently that chocolate companies in Michigan are moving to Canada because the sugar is cheaper there). We certainly see evidence of that here. It makes you wonder how the citizens of EF are making it. It seems most of the Grill clients are from Fairhaven. (Don't you love the contrast in names? Fairhaven, with their 10-year winning football team, and Empire Falls, crash!)

I assume Cindy's suicide attempt had something to do with Miles's marriage. Could her other one have to do with the prom?

WOW!!!! Susan, that is wonderful. How you ever find the patience and dogged determination to do all that checking back on the choronological background, I don't know, but I must say I am glad you did. I had thought that perhaps Russo was just a bit foggy sometimes as to exact times in his story, but I overlooked this after getting caught up in the story. Like you said, leaving so many loose threads for the reader to tie together.

Your referrals to the page numbers helps a lot. Thank you, thank you!

Lorrie

Wow, MmeW, you really worked hard on that chronology! It is interesting for a number of reasons, not least among them being that C.B. must have been between 55 and 60 during the Martha's Vineyard triste with Grace??? Maybe Russo didn't think a reader would bother to figure out the time details! Surely Miles and Cindy were only 18 at the time of the prom! (They did go, didn't they? It's been a while since I read this!!!)
The fact that Max runs over animals is a red herring -- I do remember that, at least!
I think Francine has Jimmy spying on Miles because she wants to know if he's up to some thing she wouldn't approve of -- like improving his lot in life! She seems to have built-in radar where he's concerned. For a while I thought that she really cared about his personal development, but now I think she cares only about the possibility of his escaping her control.

Good point, Jo, about CB's age in MV. I didn't even notice it, I was so busy looking at the trees. However, I think anyone, especially anyone kind, would be preferable to Max. And we did get Miles's graphic description of Charlie's "concave" body.

Word kept throwing years in automatically and I didn't know how to stop it. (There's such a thing as too much progress.) There shouldn't be any 1998, and 1999 should go with Walt's saying he should steal Janine.

For some reason I am fixated on chronology: I found a missing day in The Sun Also Rises and convinced my husband to write his masters thesis on Durrell's mess-ups in The Alexandria Quartet. But I couldn't read The Sound and the Fury without Cliff's Notes providing a "map." I might have gone 'round the bend trying to figure that one out!

It must be 40 years since I read The Sound and the Fury. Can't remember much! Would this be a good choice for discussion, MmeW?

Thanks, Susan..the chronology is all printed out so I can look at it more closely later.

Yes, I think factory closings/family farm corporation failures were/are certainly not unique to New England. Here in the midwest we've had large packing plants close and present workers left without employment and retirees denied their pensions, etc. We've had family farms (including Century Farms...in the same family for over 100 yrs) declare bankruptcy and be sold off, etc. Amana/Maytag, well known names in America, have laid off thousands, so the problem is country-wide and everyone seems to know someone personally who's been affected. The effect on the economy of the area is obvious to all.

There’s no doubt that religion played a major role in the book. Is it a coincidence that we have Timmy, the evil familiar, and the church is St. Cat’s?

Also interesting that 1959 is the year of the idyllic view of EF in the DMV, and then Father Tom arrives in 1960.

There’s no doubt that Father Tom was a less than positive influence, and his cruelty to Grace in making her apologize is evidence of his narrow-minded, vindictive nature. He obviously did not hold himself to the same standards as his parishioners, violating the confidentiality of the confessional at least twice, blabbing eagerly about Grace’s and Janine’s confessions of marital infidelity. He’s an almost too perfect example of what’s wrong with religion.

I see the church building itself representing Miles and his inability to seek anything but the middle road, as Francine claimed. Just as Max can clamber about unhampered by fear or guilt (due to lack of religion in his life), Miles is hamstrung by "all that catechism…, so many of these lessons administered by the now senile priest…." (173) The paint is the protective coating like the one Miles has covered himself with over the years. How telling that Miles is attracted to the rectory, that forbidden (by Father Tom) fruit.

Despite the constant reminders that Miles’s sense of morality was drummed in by his mother and, by extension, the church, I think it’s quite possible to have such feelings of moral imperative in conflict with one’s interests without the influence of the church. Tick’s attitude toward John Voss (wanting to befriend him, yet not wanting to be ostracized) is very similar to Miles’s ambivalence about helping Cindy, yet church is not Tick's thing.

I find the role of religion difficult to say anything new about because Russo spells it out so clearly for us, even to the point of being a little insulting to the reader. I was having an "aha" moment when Miles was scraping paint (going higher and higher). But then, just in case we didn’t get it, Russo says, "What he had been peeling back with his scraper…was not so much paint as years, all of his boyish misperceptions." Duh.

(Mal's question was if I liked the novel, but it disappeared.) Actually, Mal, I love it, but then I am a Russo fan. I see so many human foibles painted in such a kindly way (unfortunately, I tend to be like Miles). Plus, I'm a sucker for humor and I find that on every page. Add a little mystery and I'm hooked.

I seem to remember that you didn't like it much in comparison to Angle, but I think it's sort of the apples/oranges thing. (In a college paper, I once "proved," according to the prof's criteria, that Kidnapped was superior to Tom Jones--huh?)

I found a bio that says he lives in Camden. Good detective work, Mal!

Jo:

Not too long ago there was a discussion of the book "Absolom! Absolom!" and I understand that at that time there was quite a bit of comment about the author, William Faulkner. It may be a trifle soon to do another book by him right now, but that's an excellent suggestion. I always thought "Sound and Fury" should have been picked, anyway.

Lorrie

Sounds like a wonderful place, Mal! And good lobster is my favorite food!
MmeW, is Miles unable to finish the steeple because it represents a vision of responsibility that no longer supports him? Is he dizzy because he really feels alone up there, and everywhere else, not supported by the faith he had been taught to depend upon? That's what the "boyish misperceptions" he has been scraping away suggests to me -- the part you thought was too obvious that I missed the first time! Thanks for pointing it out (double -duh!!!) I was able to figure out by myself (!) that Max was unperturbed by the height just as he is unperturbed by any sense of responsibility. Maybe Tick demonstrates natural goodness and compassion, unprompted by shovelsful of guilt handed out by a Father Tom. I think it was in the Brothers Karamazov discussion that we discussed wether or not there was guilt and responsibility if there was no God. I said yes.

Mal, you mentioned that Francine had so much wisdom. It seems to me that Francine knows a lot, especially about the workings of the human mind, but I don’t think I’d call it wisdom. (Don’t ask me to explain that.)

Jo, I had always thought the steeple represented Miles’s ‘fear of flying,’ always seeking the safe middle ground—dizzy at the thought of doing something different, leaving the safe harbor of the Empire Grill.

What you said about Tick and compassion is what I think I was trying to say, that maybe Miles is just a nice guy, religion or no religion, but lacks the spine to stand by his convictions, since nice guys are often not aggressive or pushy. Russo tells us that his mother pushed him to be nice to Cindy, but I don’t think that was antithetic to his personality, and that he would probably have been nice to her anyway. I guess it’s the old nature vs. nurture argument, and I tend to think that you are pretty much born with your personality. I think religion can warp you, but most of Miles’s memories of religion are comforting, safe memories— early mass, being an altar boy, Catholic school, which was such a relief from public school and the bullies. The protective coatings of paint, the misconceptions, involve primarily his mother and Francine, resulting in his not taking responsibility for his own life. But once his eyes are opened, will he change?

Oddly enough, I awoke this morning (because my cat stepped on the "alarm on" button on my clock radio) to two interesting segments on NPR, one on Cardinal Law refusing to allow new chapters of a lay group Voice of the Faithful to meet in church halls in the Archdiocese of Boston, and the second, an interview on NPR with Steven Pinker, who has recently written a book The Blank Slate, on the very subject of nature vs. nurture (on the side of nature).

The second link leads to a description of Pinker’s book. The NPR interview won’t be available till 10:00 am PDT.

I’m being haunted by EF (and my cat—do you think there’s a significance?).

Mal, I’m with you on guilt. And, yes, the RC church is good at instilling guilt, but in a way, it is also good at expiating it because all you have to do is confess and do penance, right? Not all the hellfire and brimstone you get in some protestant churches.

I really don’t mean to imply that Miles and Tick are "good," but they at least recognize what is right and what they should do, even if they lack the backbone to do it, and that’s why they feel guilty. In the cases of Cindy and John, both Miles and Tick seem to worry about others making fun of them if they show compassion. Or maybe the fact that they think they should be kind, rather than it springing spontaneously from within is indicative of Mom/church influences demanding more of them than they can give.

I think an even better example is Jimmy Minty. His pop's influences have really affected his life and attitudes.

And poor David, who has been given no other goal in life than to look after his brother.

There is one thing, among many, that I admire about Russo's writing. I like the way he uses secondary characters to fill out his main characters. Like the quiet conversation between Miles and Otto Meyer, the contact in the bar between Max and Horace, where Max is playing desperately for another beer, and the way Bea Majeski seem s to offer the only hope Miles may have of getting rid of Francine's yoke. Each minor character seems to lead right into the major ones, it's very good writing.

There's something I would like to ask of you all. When Miles discovers who Charley Mayne really was, do you think he would have felt differently if Grace were still alive and able answer any questions he might have?

Lorrie

I have been quite restrained, I must say, up until now, about peering ahead to new chapters to see what's going on, but I have to tell you that I simply must finish reading this book now. Since we are coming so close to the final chapters, I cannot bear not to know what the answers are to all these nagging questions. I promise not to give away anything---everybody has been so good about that.

Lorrie

I think the discovery is so shattering to Miles because suddenly Francine's interest in him is explained, or at least put into question, and if Grace were alive, that ambiguous relationship wouldn't have existed. Of course, there is also the realization of the humiliation that his mother went through. If his mother were alive, she probably wouldn't have answered any questions anyway judging by the way she answered them when she was alive.

Yes, Susan, When it comes to Miles and his mother's confiding in him for any reason at all, much less talk of her lover, Grace was hardly the chatterbox, was she?

After sharing her sojourn with Charley Mayne on Marthaa's Vineyard, and agonizing with her on that humiliating walk across the bridge that Father Tom sent her on, in penance, there was still very little ever said by Grace to her son, even later on. And Max was hardly any better.

Lorrie

Lorrie, do you get the impression that Max wasn't the type to give a hoot? If he had been of a different disposition, the whole episode would not have occurred ...probably. And if Grace were more assertive, she wouldn't have stayed with him OR taken that walk across the bridge! Parents' personalities and behaviors are the first instructive experinces for a child; Miles would have had more fireworks to observe, and he would have picked up on reality in an entirely different way, if Grace had behaved differently.
The biggest conundrum in the whole story is "Charlie Mayne."

Great post, Jo.

It does seem, to me, as if Max was mostly gone and so not much of an influence on Miles, and yet David seems so different, and he, I guess, was raised in the same atmosphere. Why did Miles have no "backbone" but David appears to...yet raised by a largly single parent, for all intents and purposes???

Actually David and Miles seem so different from each other that I have problems remembering they are brothers.

Very interresting! Have we decided whether or not David is Max's kid? If so, I guess he's more like Max, except more responsible. If not, maybe he has Grandma Francine's backbone!!!

I am still thinking that David is CB's son (but, Jo, he would have had none of Francine's blood, she was CB's wife, not mother). Miles's comment about a certain "weakness about the mouth" of the Whiting portraits leads me to believe that they themselves were a little weak, including CB and David. David's "misspent youth" reminds me just a bit of CBs Mexico sojourn. Just because David sees things more clearly (partially because he was not involved in the seminal episode) and has stopped drinking does not necessarily mean he is a strong person.

And Miles's reflections seem to indicate what happened to CB:

Had Grace been shocked to learn...that the man who'd exhibited such amazing powers on Martha's Vineyard had none at home? Or did she conclude that he simply hadn't found the courage to confront his wife? Had it occurred to her that Mrs. Whiting would have enlisted the aid of her father-in-law—old Hornus—and threatened her husband with the loss of his inheritance?...Was it Charlie's wife or his father who somehow managed to convince him that a solemn oath sworn in private to a desperate woman from the wrong side of the river counted for less than one sworn before family in public?

I'm inclined to believe that CB did scrape up the courage to try to break loose, but based on his rapid disappearance, Francine and Hornus settled his hash.

Sorry!!! I'm blushing... for a minute Francine seemed like more of a mother-manager to C.B. than a wife! I really know better, but I slipped up! She's such a BOSS! I agree that "strength" or "weakness" is not as important as the variety of experiences that Miles and David had. If anybody seems weak, it's C.B., but then we don't really know what the family put him through when he ran off again and left Grace in the lurch. The ending is very important in this regard, and I'm eager to read all of your reactions when we get there!

I really must tell you all how proud I am of the way you all have grasped the fundamentals of each of these characters, and the way you have all discussed your likes and dislikes of these same characters are making this a very enjoyable discussion. Whenever a group of posters can come into a page and chat among themselves as you are all doing here, that is a sign of a successful book discussion!

Before we move on to Part 4, I wanted to remind you of a particularly terse conversation between Francine and Grace, on a subject that each of them thought about constantly yet never mentioned. That dialogue between the two women has to be one of the most cryptic in the book.

Page 352-353. (Paperback)

Lorrie

What makes me think David is Charley Mayne's son, is the stress Russo puts on Grace's pregnancy all the while she and Miles were at Martha's Vineyard. I could be wrong, of course!

As you can see above, I have grouped this last section Part 4 and the Epilogue together. It struck me that so much in the Epilogue was relevant to part 4, that we could discuss the book as a whole in the last few days of this month. There are so many ends to tie together that we need all of the remaining days to comment.

Lorrie

Lorrie...I'm so glad you've changed the schedule...and we can discuss it all, really, beginning tomorrow. I, too, had to read ahead and this last part is really interesting, I think. I can hardly wait to see what everybody has to say tomorrow.

Lorrie, Empire Falls comes at an important time in the USA as we see what is going on Right now. Thanks for being the dicussion Leader here.

Ginger

Could it be that Francine's "fondness" is linked to her feeling of having control over the person she is fond of?

Tuesday Morning:

I am shattered!! Never in a thousand years, despite all the headlines these past couple years, did I dream of anything like this happening. The scene in the art class has left me shaken, I will post more on this later.

Thank Heaven we were all so close-mouthed. It would have been a tragedy if anyone had spilled the beans on this development. Later.

Lorrie

Like you, Lorrie, I had a very visceral reaction to the art class mayhem. From the minute I saw the head bobbing in the parking lot, I heard the rumbling of the on-coming train, as did Tick, her left arm growing numb. I’m not sure, though, that Russo’s previous frequent references to the Exacto blade had any real purpose other than to heavy-handedly foreshadow violence. Or maybe that was a red herring, like Max’s running over animals, since it played very little part in what happened that day.

And how fitting that Otto should be the one to save Tick since we had just seen his down-to-earth morality in the prom discussion. "Miles tried to think if anyone else his own age had ever suggested doing the right thing because it was the right thing."

John Voss is the, to me, stereotypical "abused/harrassed/tormented by all the school bullies" kid who finally, literally, "fires" back. Unfortunately, he chose to shoot/kill two people who tried to help him. Otto Meyer, Jr., as principal, did not do enough.

In this day and age, if he lived in Iowa, he would have been required by law to do more. [In Iowa teachers, among others, are "mandatory reporters" and he would have had to report the obvious neglect/possible abuse of this kid to the authorities. I see nothing to indicate that he/John's teachers did that. Maybe that's not required elsewhere? ]

Has anyone found any indication why Tick gets the numb/painful left arm whenever there's danger/violence around? I thought this was something that'd happened with Zack, the "awful" thing that wouldn't happen again, but now I think maybe she was referring to the "game" Zach played with the gun?

I think Voss is almost too perfect a candidate to go postal: a loner, ostracized, bullied, abused and abandoned by his parents, virtually autistic, immune to normal fear for self (gun game).

What exactly happened at the Voss house when Zach went there? I’m thinking that Zach’s limp (406, 412), resulting in his mysterious infection, began there because he was scurrying and trotting back then (380). Was there a dog inside? Did it bite him? Did he kill it with the baseball bat he found? Why, exactly, was it "so fucking great"?

However, like you, Mal, this violent intrusion on Miles’s story bothers me a bit. Everything comes to a head, with 4 characters (Miles, Jimmy, Walt and Zach) hospitalized, then this, a convenient way to get Miles and Tick out of town for the duration. And the seriousness and drama of it all make Miles’s concerns look mighty puny, which is a disappointment after we have invested so much time and effort in the labyrinthine puzzle.

Susan: I think Zach's leg was infected when he tripped over that dog's stake out in the yard and cut his leg open. It was when he was breaking into the house or leaving quickly.

I don't know what he saw; I suspect it was what he didn't see--a Grandmother-- that started him on those taunts to John.

Thanks, Jane. I missed that line about blood seeping through his jeans. Even if grandma wasn't there, I still don't quite see why Zach was so triumphant, but maybe I am being obtuse. I think I need to reread the whole section.

Susan:

Yes, exactly! red herrings all over the place, from the run-over animals to the X-acto knife, to the Cyber boy friend of Tish's. They're all over the place, arent't they?

Jane:

Aren't you a little hard on Otto? He's such an admirable character I sort of hate to see anyone criticize him, especially after the noble death that Russo gives him. And it's funny about that numb feeling Tick feels in her arm. Here in our Senior building that same feeling would cause us to call 911 and get treated for possible stroke, hahahaha! I also wonder what Zack saw in that house that night, or didn't see, as you suggest.

Susan:

I'm wondering, too, if I missed something. Why did Zack come back, even though bleeding, so strangely elated about something?

Mal: Did your sister mention in what other books Russo may have used this ploy?

Lorrie

I have to agree with Jane that in September, 2000 (Columbine was, after all, in 1999) someone as obviously dysfunctional as John Voss should have been reported/investigated by any number of people, especially Horace, who actually witnessed something that "rattled him to the core," that stayed with him "every step" of the three-mile walk into town. What that was, we can only guess, but if it was that bad, someone in authority should have heard about it.

Lorrie: Yes, I am harsh on Otto, and I think Otto, in retrospect, would have been harsh on Otto, AFTER COLUMBINE and some of the other things we've had happen. Here in Iowa, we had yearly mandatory meetings about reporting neglect/abuse/harrassment(sp?), etc until it's been so drilled into me that it immediately popped into my mind when Otto went out to the house..."report it, Otto, report it!" There was ample evidence on the surface of the neglect of John. Social Services/whatever the agency is in Maine that would have handled that would have known of the abuse as a child, etc.

Otto means well, he is sincerely trying to help John, I think, but he didn't go far enough as we've sadly learned.

In this transcript of an on-line chat, Russo said, "I was nearly finished with the novel (or an early draft) when the shootings at Columbine took place, though I'd been mulling Paduka over in my mind for some time. The larger issue of the novel, I quickly came to discover, was cruelty. Why do we find it so satisfying? Why is it so hard for even decent people to avoid. The climax is, alas, only one aspect of the [l]arger mystery I was hoping to understand.

Mal: Otto Meyer also knew of the intense harrassment, of the obvious neglect in the way the child dressed/personal hygiene/etc. That is enough, in this day and age, for it to HAVE to be reported. After seeing that house, he knew that this child needed outside help.

Here we have CHINA...Child in Need of Assistance.

Surely other states have that same sort of protection. Otto and the teachers knew those rules...or should have,

Mal, it seems to me that a common trait of many serial killers is animal abuse in their youth.

Yes, Mal, I agree. Someone posted that Russo said he spoke with his daughter to get the high school stuff for the novel. I think he should have done further research and somehow could have incorporated those requirements into the novel. He could still have had the same outcome. I wouldn't been so dissatisfied then with his "research" for the novel, but this is apparently another "error/flaw" as are the problems with some of the dates, Susan mentioned earlier.

Speaking of errors, he says Honus dies in his late seventies and CB is 59 when he is called back from Mexico (476-7), but Honus would have been 89 by then since he was 30 years older than CB (5). And why was CB called back? For the funeral? Certainly not to run the long-sold comany.

Did anyone else notice the ultimate irony when C. B. Whiting returned home unannounced, bought a gun, and prepared to shoot his wife, when he suddenly came upon Cindy struggling to get in and out of the patio doors? (Page 481,pb) Cindy, the last person to see his homecoming and the only one who was glad to see him, Cindy, the child he had run over with his car and crippled for life, and Cindy, whom he was ready to abandon to an uncaring mother when he would run off with Grace.

I found this passage to be unutterably sad.

Lorrie

On the same note, all along I have been thinking that Francine shipped CB off, but just above your quote, Lorrie,

Only later,[after he had told Grace about Cindy and she had "redeemed" him] when they made plans to flee their lives and begin another together, and when she realized he meant for it to be just the three of them...and had thought to leave his daughter behind or, worse, neglected to think of her at all, did he manage to ruin everything.

He tried to cover, but "In that moment she'd seen him as a man prepared to abandon a child."

Speaking of vengeance, what a truly horrible revenge Francine had on Grace (whom she was fond of, yeah, right). I am haunted by this passage:

"You never should have come back here, old buddy," Jimmy Minty said when he got in the car…. "I’ll never forget how she screamed at you." … Go away, Miles. You’re killing me. Can’t you understand that? Your being here is killing me. Killing me.

How horrible to die, helplessly watching the thing you worked for your whole life undone.

Oh, Susan, how true! That was a truly despairing picture,, one that doesn't leave easily. But Mal, i did have to laugh at your post, because that was exactly the way I felt about Francine's demise, especially after what she tried to do to Bea' plans for renovating her tavern. What a witch! That scene with a yowling cat on the dead woman's chest is unforgettable!

Lorrie

I know we all like to reflect on "what might have been," and "What if," but think back on how you all feel about living in a small town. Look at Question 13 up above and tell me what you think would have happened if some of the characters had managed to leave Empire Falls?

Lorrie

Well done, Mal, except I'm not sure about Las Vegas. All I see here are two dogs that are irritated because they haven't been on walks for days because their stupid owner is hunched over the computer posting on a stupid book club. No drug lords and no casinos, though our mayor does endorse Tanqueray gin!

Miles would have lived with Mom and CB.

And our poor Candace was one of the victims, I think, so Cindy would run the elegant Empire Falls B&B with her gentleman friend from Augusta.

Well!! What vivid imaginations! You both have come up with some wonderful "what if's," and I salute you!

Were you surprised to learn that it was Cindy's own father who struck her with the car and crippled her? I had thought all along that it involved Jimmy Minty, somehow, but it seems the green Pontiac was another red herring!

That's another thing. All along I'd been putting a halo on Charley, and sympathizing with the poor fellow who had such rotten misfortune to be married to a real witch, and viewing him with a sort of romantic fantasy. Whereas he was actually a weak, wishy-washy person who ran over his own daughter and couldn't face up to it, and even planned to run away with another woman and desert that same daughter. No way could I like that Charley again.

All those years, while Grace suffered remorse and penance like working for his wife, he was ensconced happily in his own home in Mexico with another woman and her son, a made-to-order family while Grace was losing hers.

Lorrie

Lorrie...I agree about ol' CB...what a pathetic piece of humanity he is! He married Francine, he fathered Cindy, he ran over Cindy, he had a "fling/affair/whatever" with an employee...and I wonder how many others???...he goes off to Mexico to write poetry and live with yet another 'Sweetie' and a son. I assume he fathered that son, but maybe I missed his being a step-son.

Who was supplying the $$$? Francine? To keep him out of her hair...and let her run things? That arrangement would have suited them both, I think.

Why did CB come back to kill Francine after all those years?

The epilogue said he was "summoned back" after Honus died, why we have no idea since the factories were long sold, summoned back for the second time, this time by someone he "loathed," the woman he had promised to love, honor and obey ... till death they do part." So he decides that, OK, death.

The little boy was "his son in all but name," so I presume he's a stepson, though that could mean simply that they weren't married.

The summoning to me is a bit far-fetched—why would Francine want him back? Grace is still alive and working there. It just doesn't make sense to me, a weak link in the well-woven plot.

Susan: It doesn't make sense to me either-- unless Francine had some bizarre idea to make him another of her "marionette" collection, as I've come to think of so many of the characters. But, that's just wild speculation on my part of the "what might have been" that is not part of the novel, as written.

I can't understand, either, why Francine would have "summoned" Charley home after all those years, and why did he decide just then to shoot himself rather than Francine? I know he saw Cindy at the patio door trying to get in or out, but it's murky to me just what he was thinking about then. Answers, anyone?

Lorrie

Another neat touch: When C,B. Whiting, disgusted with the dead moose and other debris at the riverside, had his engineers dynamite there and change the course of the river, he was warned that it might affect future rates of flow in coming years. It's ironic that even though he didn't actually shoot his wife Francine, Whiting was still responsible for her death, because of the horrendous amount of rain that swelled the river that year that Miles and Tick were still at Martha's Vineyard.

Lorrie

I still read it that Hornus died ("his weight finally brought the entire piece down upon him, crushing what little of his life remained.").

He was "summoned back from the life he'd made for himself in Mexico,...simply being informed that he was no longer permitted to be happy." Doesn't explain it to me.

I'm as perplexed as Susan.

Francine had been running whatever there was to run for at least 10 years. Why was CB now "summoned" back? Ok, his Dad died, he comes home for 3 days for the funeral..and he's back to Mexico on the next plane. He went to Mexico in 1967; the factories closed in 1973 and this is now 1977.

If CB was 40 in 1947 when he married Francine...then he's 70 in 1977; I question that his father, who must have been at least 20 years older than CB, at least, and probably more, probably wasn't actively managing anything...not with someone as strong as Francine around! The "summoned" back just doesn't make sense to me. Why would somebody who hasn't cared a fig for the "estate" or the "factories" or whatever come back as long as Francine or ??? keeps the $$$ flowing into the bank account that allows CB his life of leisure in Mexico.

I don't have the faintest idea, Mal, nor do I particularly care. I don't get too excited about these "awards" or "prizes." I'll be nice and just say that it would have not gotten my vote---unless the other nominees were worse.

I've reread the Epilogue, as Mal suggested. It doesn't tell me anything that explains CB's return. All it tells me is that CB was as poor a judge in his choice of a wife as his father and grandfather before him.

Does anyone else feel a slight disappointment at the ending of this book? Someone (Mal?) said it read like Russo was hurrying the end between jolts of writing screenplays, and I tend to agree. We are not the only one who feel this, also, as Steve Mueske, a book critic for Pop-Matters, states:

"Through it all, Miles seems to stand in the center of a whirling storm of events large and small, preposterous and sad, funny and serious. It shapes his character the way smoke fills out a beam of light.

Having said this, the book is nearly ruined near the end when a despicable teen-age character shows up at school with a gun and shoots a number of classmates. Not that this event is beyond the interest of literature, but that such a horrific event is treated as a mere subplot and is nowhere near as interesting as the themes already developed. It is overkill, it is out of place, and it is at this point that the text starts to veer between past and present tense and Russo loses control of the narrative. He does grab hold of the story again, however, and manages to pull out an ending that is strong and satisfying, despite his past history for weak endings."

Lorrie

I agree with you and Mal, Lorrie, on the rush to finish the thing. I sure don't agree with that critic that the ending was "strong and satisfying, despite his past history for weak endings." I didn't find it so, anyway.

I was disappointed, too, Lorrie, especially after he had rather masterfully managed all those dangling threads. The end seemed rushed to me and somewhat thrown together, like he knew where he was going and went there as fast as he could. I read somewhere that Russo rewrites a lot in the beginning, but as the novel proceeds, he does less and less rewriting, and I think it shows. On the other hand, maybe all our dissection just sucks the life out of it and we are equally tired of it at the end.

The shooting seemed sensationalistic to me, but Russo said in an interview:

I was nearly finished with the novel (or an early draft) when the shootings at Columbine took place, though I'd been mulling Paduka over in my mind for some time. The larger issue of the novel, I quickly came to discover, was cruelty. Why do we find it so satisfying? Why is it so hard for even decent people to avoid. The climax is, alas, only one aspect of the [l]arger mystery I was hoping to understand.

It’s interesting that cruelty seems to be a theme of the novel.

Mal, frankly, I think The Corrections was much more brilliant than EF, though Franzen’s flights of fancy did disconcert me a bit.

Now that we are winding down to our last few days here, I would like to ask you each these questions:

What adjectives would you use to describe Empire Falls?
How does Russo make the story of a dying town (with more than its share of losers) entertaining and engaging?
Did you find most, if not all, of the characters sympathetic in some way?
Did any of these characters appeal to you more than the others? Which ones, and why?

Lorrie

Hey, Hey, where is everybody? Don't leave just yet, we have to have a little closure here! How about a response to my last post? And we do want to have you sum up what you did and did not like about the book!

Lorrie

My view:

What adjectives would you use to describe Empire Falls?

Typical of today's small town America

How does Russo make the story of a dying town (with more than its share of losers) entertaining and engaging?

I think he uses some humor to describe people/situations that anyone who's ever lived in a small town can identify with.

Did you find most, if not all, of the characters sympathetic in some way?

I didn't find Zach Minty,Jimmy Minty, or Max sympathetic.

Did any of these characters appeal to you more than the others? Which ones, and why? I liked Tick, David, Charlene. They seemed to have some backbone and common sense. I felt sorry for Cindy and how she's been treated by parents who knew better(or should have) but were too egocentric.

Lorrie, I think in my eagerness to find out what happened, I really skimmed over the last part, and I also got sidetracked by Remains of the Day. I’m so glad you have insisted on some kind of closure because it seems crazy to invest so much time and thought into a work and not finish it up.

After rereading the last part, I do have a real sense of satisfaction about the novel and its ending. I think I was giving the shooting chapter an undue importance. Yes, it was one of the threads, but not the main one.

I, for one, think Miles does develop backbone on recognizing CB in the picture, and though it is not very effective, it was difficult to be effective against Francine since she held all the trumps. But he did begin the plan for the new restaurant, he did fight Jimmy Minty and he did confront Francine when the permit people descended on Bea’s bar. Had the shooting not happened or Francine not died, I’m not sure how it all could have been resolved.

I also liked his confrontation with Charlie Mayne on MV, though how Charlie could have blamed him for his own failure to run off with Grace, I don’t know, especially in view of the Epilogue. But he sees that he has been a boy, letting one mother after another dictate his life, and is now ready to become a man.

Adjective to describe Empire Falls: decaying

I think Russo’s humor, both situational and verbal, make EF a delight.

Oddly enough, I managed some sympathy for almost all the characters except for Zach and Francine, both of whom are just too mean, Father Tom, who is mean and senile, and Walt, who is a jerk.

My favorites were Miles, Father Mark, Otto—the "good" guys (I am a wuss), and David, Bea and Charlene—the clear-sighted ones.

In a way, Empire Falls is a fable about hubris. In destroying Empire Falls physically (CB) and economically (Francine), they destroy themselves. Granted that retribution doesn’t usually happen in real life; I mean, Ken Lay can still count his billions.

So many of you mentioned your dislike of the somehat “choppy” ending of the book, and apparently you are not alone.
Drew Cherry, a reviewer for the Willamette Week, says this:
.........”Russo’s habit of rambling exposition and the odd, unenlightened flashback leads one to wonder if Empire Falls might be an epic novel without an epic subject. Even more disorienting is that after 400 pages of wagon-train pacing, carefully flowering nuances of human intereaction and some truly tender scenes, Russo lands a shocking and egregious climax for which the reader is given little preparation, and even less explanation.......”

And from STEPH’S BOOK REVIEWS:
..........................”Be prepared for Falls’ abrupt and scary turn toward the darker side of human failure, which jars the reader abruptly after the fun and frolicsome first half of the novel. It’s nice to see that Russo is finally permitting his characters to take things seriously, althouth the results are a litttle jerky and oddly paced this time around............”

Lorrie

Thanks for those reviews, Lorrie. It's always nice to see that someone else sees things and I/we do!

How true, Jane!

Well, we may not have been many, but I must say this has been for me one of the better discussions that I have participated in. It's been wonderful joining in, with everyone giving her opinion without strife, and at times it was almost like sitting around the kitchen table having a "coffee klautch" like we used to do.

Susan, you are indeed an asset to any discussion, and I am so glad to see you participating in "Remains" now. We all hope to see a lot of you.

Mal, I don't know how we could have gotten through without your pithy and insightful remarks. Well done, and I do hope your health improves.

JO, you have a real feeling for characterization--I enjoyed your take on most of these colorful characters, in fact, I think I liked your interpretation of that b...Francine more than any other.

And Jane, dear Jane. You are a really valuable poster to have in any discussion. You give an honest opinion, come what may, and you have the great virtue of tenacity, staying until the end.

I can say without fibbing that i do hope to participate in another discussion with you all. Enjoy "Remains" and don't forget about "Hannah's Daughters" which is scheduled soon! Love ya all!

Lorrie

Lorrie, Jane, Mal, Jo, it has been a real pleasure to share Russo with you. And, kudos to you Lorrie—your direction has been impeccable! On to Remains.

Finally read all the posts!!! It's very late ... I'll come back tomorrow, in hopes that someone is still around! Thanks to all, and to Lorrie especially for a well-managed discussion!

Here I am, all by myself, I guess. “Better late than never” is a lie!

Charlie Mayne/ C.B. is weak; he knows that when he kills himself. He knows how he blew his relationship with Grace, but then would Grace have taken Miles away from his father, or left without him, anymore than she wanted to leave without Cindy? And how would they have done that, anyway? Even though Francine is cold in her treatment of the girl, I doubt she would have abetted their escape by giving Cindy to him. Everybody bears responsibility for the predicament, and everybody suffers, but not as much as Grace. (Well, maybe not Francine, the realist!)


What did you think about the “ghostly” conversation between Miles and Charlie on pages 470 –471? Like so much of this book, I thought it was beautifully written and intended to imply that we have little or no control over many events. Charlie says it’s Miles’ fault that his mother didn’t go away with him, and there is probably some truth in that, although we know – or think we know—how Grace felt about his not including Cindy in the plan. The author seems to give weight to ghost-Charlie’s statement (really an evolution of what was going on in Miles’ mind as he revisited the scene of the fateful contact and parting) in showing Miles as a recovering adult after that episode. He is ready to return with Tick to Empire Falls, and take up with whatever life he has there, which may even include Janine (yuk!) again. I think we are to assume she is reformed, having learned something about life and herself after dealing with goofy Walt.

I know that most of you find the shooting episode appalling, and maybe it seemed kind of off the subject, but there is something to the inevitability of cruelty that Russo talks about. It was well written, wasn’t it? And as I am a retired teacher (30 years in an urban high school), I have to say I have know many troubled children who really didn’t get the treatment they needed or didn’t respond to efforts made for them. By the time John Voss shows up in the story, so much damage has been done to him that any available resources probably wouldn’t have been enough to repair the damage. He needed therapy, and most of all, love and care in a stable environment, and there didn’t seem to be anything available that either Horace or Otto knew about. It’s scary, but it isn’t unlikely that they were right! He was Tick’s initiation into a reality she will have to cope with and still keep her capacity for love and her sanity in tact. She seems to love ol’ Max, a situation that amazes and amuses Miles, I think. Miles seems to be at once disgusted and amused with his father. I can believe that, too! The humor, the sadness, the horror, the love, -- all exist simultaneously, an endless paradox.


I found my copy of Remains of the Day. Hope to read you all in that discussion! Thanks again!

Wonderful, JO! What a great summingup! I wish that some of our other posters in other discussions would absorb as much of the story as you all did with this novel. It appears to me that everyone was really wrapped up in the story, and I will remember it for a long time. I am looking forward to the movie, although I won't be surprised if it's a disappointment. I do like Paul Newman, though.

Again, my deepest thanks and affection to you all. You're the greatest!

Lorrie

A few months ago Empire Falls was pick of the month for our fiction/lit discussion group at the bookstore where I work. Some of what I took away from our discussion follows:

1. Charlie Mayne was a sort of genius. After all he hopped aboard the family business even though his heart was not in it. Yet the business continued to thrive under his stewardship. However he should have stuck with his heart's desire-painting, and he should have stayed in Mexico. By giving in to his father's wishes and then Francine's, he did himself wrong as well as the townspeople that had learned to depend on the family's business. In other words, by not being true to himself, Charlie created a mess.

2. Francine and Miles were a pair. If only they could have learned from each other. How was it that Francine was able to pull herself up from the bowels of poverty to the top of the heap? By being focused, knowing what she wanted, going for it, and getting it at all costs. How was it that Miles remained mediocre throughout the story? By giving up what he wanted for himself and denying the cost. He wanted to be a teacher but stayed with the business he fell into as a teenager. He ended up dedicating his life to meeting other people's needs--the perfect enabler. Francine and Miles could have conducted their busines with each other without their extended sit-down conversations. Why did they talk? Because they understood each other like nobody else did.

3. The rise and fall of Empire Falls was due to the fact that the townspeople depended on one family to do for them what they should have done for themselves, i.e., be innovative in bringing business into the town. Empire Falls (like so many towns) needs more people like David. David not only survived failure but went on to be productive. It was David's ideas that brought prosperity to the restaurant and made it a happening place.

Refreshing take, showdog.

Showdog: I wish you'd joined us in the discussion. I'd have loved to hear how your group considered CB to be a "genius" and when he did anything for the Family Business.

Please join us in some of our other discussions here.

Yes, Showdog.

we would have been very pleased to see you in this discussion, but please join in some of the many other ones we have going.

Lorrie