Gilead ~ Marilynne Robinson ~ 1/05 ~ Book Club Onl Export

- The New York Times Book Review has just ranked Gilead one of the top five novels of 2004.

"Adulthood is a wonderful thing, and brief.
You must be sure to enjoy it while it lasts."

Gilead covers a time span of 100 years. The novel begins with a letter the Rev. John Ames writes on his 77th birthday to his young son. As he faces impending death from heart disease, Rev. Ames writes to record his family's history and his own inner life. There seems to be a message here for all of us as we race through our own adulthood.
"So serenely beautiful and written in a prose so gravely measured and thoughtful, that one feels touched with grace just to read it. There's nothing flashy, yet one regularly pauses to reread sentences, sometimes for their beauty, sometimes for their truth." --Michael Dirda

DATES	CHAPTER	PAGES
1/24- 1/31	Jack and John Ames Connect	pgs. 189 - end

For Consideration
January 24 - 31
"There are a thousand reasons to live this life, every one of them sufficient."
1. Do you see Jack Boughton as the Prodigal Son? What does he want from John Ames that he cannot get from his own father? Do you think he found what he was looking for?

2. Is John Ames the good son who never left his father's house, even when his father did? "One of the righteous for whom rejoicing in heaven will be comparatively restrained?" Is he too hard on himself?

3. Were you surprised that Ames' father and mother had moved from Gilead to live with Edward? Do you agree with his father, that John Ames wasted his life in Gilead? Why did he stay? Why is he afraid to leave

4. Is Jack at peace at last? Do you think that he will pull himself together and bring his wife and child to Iowa, the "shining star of radicalism"?

5. Well? Is there balm in Gilead? Do you find a message of hope for the sinner, for the world in these pages? Has John Ames found peace?

Related Links: About Marilynne Robinson // "There is a balm in Gilead"//
Thought-provoking Quotes, Insights and Impressions //

Read more about Gilead at the B&N Bookstore .

Joan P ~ Discussion Leaders ~ Maryal

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I do hope this moving, spiritual, thought-provoking novel makes quorum and we can discuss it together here. There is so much opportunity to share our very different thoughts.

Gilead looks like a real winner...The New York Times Book Review rates it as one of the top five novels of 2004. I just checked the Best Seller list - last week it was #16 in the Times ranking. I'll bet it will be in the top ten this week which means it will be considerable cheaper in book stores. Actually, it is much less expensive on line. Barnes and Noble has it for $16...Amazon a few dollars less. If you order two books (I ordered the February pick, Alice Munroe's Runaway) you get FREE shipping too. Don't forget to give yourself a present! You deserve it!

If you are thinking about joining us, please post here - we're counting noses this week to see if we there is interest in discussing this book. Both Maryal and I are looking forward to getting together with you in the coming year.

Please let me join with you in this discussion. Last week I checked out the book from our library on a 1-week loan (standard for new books). Only took me about 5 pages to realize that this wasn't a book to race through. It has to be slowly savored. I'm buying it for myself with the B&N Gift card I SHOULD get from my son for Christmas. If he changes his practices, I'll buying it for myself!

I will check our local library on Monday and see if they have the book. If they don't, they will order it for me. I like the comments I have read about the book and would like to join the discussion in January.

Judy

Gail and Stigler (may I call you Judy?) - welcome! I think we are going to have quite a lot to talk about with this one. You made an interesting comment, Gail...this isn't a book to be raced through.

Isn't it wonderful when a book like Gilead makes it to the best seller lists? Kind of renews faith in the reading public. How long do you think Dan Brown's books will dominate the lists?

We need a few more participants to make this official...tell your friends we are planning to start on January 2, okay?

While braving the freezing elements hee in upstate NY I will walk to town and buy this from the Borders store at the corner. There are no two finer discussion leaders than Joan and Maryal.

This book was very well reviewed in the Los Angeles Times last week and I joined this group in anticipation of reading it. HOWEVER, no library has it yet in my local area .. so I'm going to unsub and read it on my own at some later time. Have a good discussion!

Aw Suzz, that's too bad. I would imagine that the libraries that DO have the book also have a long waiting list after the rave reviews. I'm hoping you will decide to look in anyway...

Babi was one of the lucky ones to "latch on" to a copy at her library - said she was going to take "copious notes" for this discussion. I advised her to skip the notes and just underline. Bad on me! I forgot this was a library book she had been lucky enough to get her hands on when I said that. If you have started the book, I suggest you keep track of your favorite quotes from the book - there are so many notable ones! Also, see if you can figure out has you read - how Gilead has become so popular with the press and reviewers? It seems an unlikely candidate to be getting the attention it has generated. Have you ever read any of Marilynne Robinson's work - Homecoming?

Andy, so happy you will be joining us - will look forward to your pithy early morning, early bird observations. Right now, your job is to get back to Florida and make sure Maryal comes back north to brave the cold. It snowed here last night - high only to be 28 degrees today - and don't forget the blustery wind! You may have to bundle her up and drive her up yourself!

I count sufficient red noses to make this discussion official. We'll move it up to Coming Attractions for January today.

You need to assign me another job. Maryal will be back north long before I get to Florida. I will be in NY State until the 3rd of January. If she hasn't returned by then the Academy will be sending out a search party.

Joan, this is a book I want to read, but don't have yet -- it's in my shopping cart (there are worse vices), but I'm waiting to see what I get for Christmas.

Someone compared the author to Harper Lee and Margaret Mitchell, neither known for prolific writing, their single works lasting through the decades. Sure makes you wonder why Robinson waited over twenty years before writing her second novel.

The movie version of her Housekeeping came out in 1987, directed by Bill Forsyth (not William Forsythe), starring Christine Lahti. Don't know if there is a video or DVD (doubtful) of it. The links I tried sent me to Amazon's book. They don't have the film.

Housekeeping, the movie

Thanks Mal. Apparently not available at in VHS or DVD at that site.

PEDLN, the VHS of "Housekeeping" is available on Amazon. I enjoyed watching the trailer on the site I linked earlier. Now I want to read the book!

VHS Housekeeping

I finally broke down and ordered the book today, and I'm looking forward to reading with you in January!

Pamela

Pamela - wonderful! Welcome! Your nose is counted. We are assembling quite a congenial group here - I'm looking forward to quiet post-holidays with a good book and good friends, new and old.

The more I read about it, the more interesting Housekeeping sounds...I plan to check my library for a copy - maybe even squeeze it in before the discussion of Gilead - just to get into the spirit and style of Ms. Robinson's writing - and also to see how she has developed since.

Housekeeping, the movie based on the book, is on videocassette at my library.

The movie Housekeeping isn't the book, not at all. The movie does have some atmosphere but.... it isn't the book.

Marvelle

Thanks, Marvelle, I was about to make a special trip to town for it.

I was wondering how M.Robinson's lyrical writing style would transfer to a video, Marvelle. It seems that many of her similes and metaphors...or just plain simple sentences need to be read and reread to fully appreciate them. I would think you'd lose a lot by watching, rather than pausing to reflect. I still plan to read Housekeeping as we discuss Gilead if not before. Pat, I hope you make your way to town to pick up Gilead and join us? Or look for a library copy of Housekeeping...my library in Arlington has a wait list on it's four copies of Housekeeping - I didn't even ask about Gilead -

How is everyone handling the stress of the holidays? If you are doing well, will you please share your recipe?

Wishing you all the peace and joy of the season!

Stress! Stress- stress is for adults Joan. The kids just breeze right along with their little heads up in the clouds of yesterday's Christmas magic, awaiting Santa's arrival tomorrow night.

Stress goes along with the holidays, I think; there is so much t do, shop, bake, wrap, please, transport and teach your kids what the "true" meaning is. It's almost an oxymoron at this stage of the season.

Joan, The movie Housekeeping is excellent but you're right that Robinson's lyrical style doesn't translate easily into film. Better to read the book first, then see the movie. I think the moviemakers did as good a job of translation from print into film as is humanly possible. Not surprisingly, I think it was an independent film made in Canada and it didn't follow the cookie-cutter mold for success often used by Hollywood movie studios. Both movie and book hold surprises for what you think you're getting as viewer/reader turns into something else. Powerful.

I saw the movie first and was very startled but don't want to give away the story for those who intend to read or see Housekeeping. After seeing the movie I read the book and was blown away by its lyric quality and depth which even the best of movies couldn't capture.

Marvelle

I'll have my copy of Gilead read and be ready to speak up on Jan. 2. Glad to see you guys will be here, too. ..Babi

Ready to go!

Newvoyager

Andy, the stress is giving way to JOY (if not yet peace) as sons are arriving from all over and everyone is full of ...well, joy at seeing one another!

And look, Babi has found her way in - Welcome!

Marvelle, I'm going to try to squeeze in Homecoming early in the week. Thanks so much for holding your thoughts on it - just for me!

Our Newcomer, Newvoyager, is good to go too - just as soon as the holidays are wrapped and put away for next year. Well, almost. We actually continue the celebration into January here.

Happy days, everyone!

I have already begun to read this wonder-ful book. I will reread when the discussions begin. It does get into the psyche of the writer and suggests or intimates so many experiences that one can relate to, especially my own as a partner in a life-lived fully. Sometimes I find myself getting left at a memorable thought or place and forget the words are moving ahead of me. It takes some realpaying-attention-to. Looking forward to reading others views!

This note is just to let you know that dh and I are leaving today for a trip to Northern California to see our family and friends up there. We're not home until late in the evening on Jan. 3, so I'll be joining in the discussion on January 4.

'Til then.....

Gail

I read "Housekeeping" and saw the movie some time ago, but still remember its powerful effect on me. I will try to get a copy of "Gilead" in time to join the discussion.

Oh this is great! Horselover - and bmcinnis you are both so WELCOME! (Is there something I may call you other than your screen names?)

We are assembling quite a group for this discussion - I suspect that your views will bring us deeper appreciation of Marilynne Robinson's work...and of life as a "wonderfully strange creation."

Horselover, I just checked my standing on our library's five copies of Homecoming - and I am now 23 on the list. I guess Gilead has sparked renewed interest in the first book. I may have to break down and buy it...unless I move up awfully fast on that list!

Looking forward to this discussion on Jan. 2 - and Maryal's return from sunny Florida too.

what a story this is! I can't get too far into it as i keep going back and rereading some of the passages. It's very spiritual. I am happy that Maryal is co-leading with you Joan as I have some theology questions to pose.

and just in time! It's a long long way from the Florida Keys to Maryland, but my daughter has an iPod with BOOKS on it, so we listened and listened. We got one whole book listened to and half of John Grisham's The Last Juror.

And now back on message--I took Gilead with me and have read about three-quarters of it. Because the narrator is theoretically writing a long missile to his son, there are shorter and longer sections. I find some of the short ones worthy of meditation. The book is beautifully and clearly written and a true pleasure. It's especially fun for me because my father was a minister/professor and my father-in-law a Methodist clergyman.

It's so good to be back home on SeniorNet. I had no internet connection in the Keys. Wonderful weather, lots of sun and sand, so much that all my fingernails got smooth, all the cracks that develop in winter healed, my hair got bleached almost white. I love it there.

Maryal

I am reading the book with a notepad and pen at hand. I'm writing down wonderful sentences and phrases from the book that I especially enjoy. I have another page of words that I will look up. She writes very well. I will have to go back and find her first book and read it.

I look forward to the discussion of this book.

Judy

Maryal is back! Maryal is back! We worried so that you would decide not to come up from the Keys until spring. Yes, I agree - there is much here for meditation. I find myself repeatedly startled into thoughts of my own mortality. John Ames has such a positive attitude towards his demise. I catch myself attributing this to the fact that he is writing as a minister with a firm belief in an afterlife. But this is Marilynne Robinson writing! Who is this extraordinary woman? All I know is that she teaches writing at the University of Iowa. Does anyone know more about her? I find her mysterious - and fascinating. What is her background? Maryal, you bring first hand knowledge of the clergy. Wonderful! Andy does too if I'm not mistaken.

Judy, I started doing the same thing with the pen/notebook - and found I was spending more time writing than reading! I think it's a good idea not to tear through this book, don't you? Especially at the beginning. Let's just discuss the first 50 pages during the first week. Have you noticed there are no chapter numbers or titles? There is that line ------ that separates scenes or thoughts. I think of them as the chapter dividers. The ------ at the start of page 50 introduces the "present"- where the boy comes into Rev. Ames study with flowers, having just visited the cemetery. His mother is getting him used to visiting there. Let's stop there and save the present for next week.

Can't wait to get started on Sunday as we begin a bright new year!

Yeah - I say- for Maryal's safe return.
Maryal is the expert in theology, not I! I am not qualified as anything but a sinner when it comes to the good Book, I fear.

JOAN, I had to smile at myself. When you pointed out that this 'letter' was not written by an elderly clergyman, but by Marilynne Robinson, I was startled into an 'Oh. Yeah.' It also sent me checking to see what I could find out about the lady.

Not much, as it turns out. There is a 'biography', which I found in two places in the exact same wording. Obviously it's the 'official' bio. It traces her literary career but the only personal info. is the fact she was born in Idaho. As she becomes more prominent, which of course she will as Gilead gains more and more attention, I assume more information about her will be available.

Babi

"Marilynne Robinson started her life in the small community of Sandpoint, Idaho, on November 26, 1943. Robinson and her older brother were raised by their parents, Ellen Harris Summers and John J. Summers (Maguire 252). She grew up in the communities of Sagle, Sandpoint, and Coolin and several other small Northwestern towns, most of which lacked higher education opportunities. In 1962, she graduated from Coeur d'Alene High School. After high school, Robinson went on to further her education at Brown University where her brother was already a senior. She studied religion, as well as creative writing, and received her B.A. in 1966. After she graduated from the prestigious Brown University, Robinson went to teach for a year at the Univesite d Haute Bretagne in Rennes, France (Maguire 253). She then came back to the United States to complete her education at the University of Washington. In 1977, Robinson earned her doctorate with a well-received dissertation on Shakespeare's Henry VI.

"During graduate school, she married and had two children (Maguire 252). She has resided in many parts of the United States including twenty years in Massachusetts and various areas in the East (Robinson 165). Robinson is now living and teaching in Iowa City, Iowa (Schaub 231). Though she no longer lives in Idaho, she has never forgotten her childhood environment."

More of this

Marilynne Robinson bio

Refrain
There is a balm in Gilead
To make the wounded whole;
There is a balm in Gilead
To heal the sin sicksoul.

1. Sometimes I feel discouraged,
And think my work's in vain,
But then the Holy Spirit
Revives my soul again.
Refrain

2. Don't ever feel discouraged,
for Jesus is your friend,
and if you look for knowledge
he'll ne'er refuse to lend.
Refrain

3. If you can't preach like Peter,
If you can't pray like Paul,
Just tell the love of Jesus,
And say He died for all.
Refrain

As I mentioned earlier, I am presently on a week-long sweep of Northern California to celebrate the season with the kids up here. I have to sneak in time away from our hosts to read more of this book. Doing this causes me to read it in little increments, which actually is a benefit, I think.

What amazes me is that it is a woman who has generated all these thoughts that this old minister has. I don't think I've had that many thoughts and/or ruminations in my entire life yet -- and I'm almost "his" age!

My hosts thought it a little strange that I asked them one evening if they had a bible, and when having placed it in my hand (which I must admit was a little bit of a surprise to me), I'm sure they were equally surprised when I tootled off to the bedroom with it! I wonder what they thought I was doing.

I can't wait to get back home where my worn bible with a good concordance is on the shelf. So many things to look up. So many things to reflect on. And to be honest, I see a lot of myself in this book -- in odd ways and places.

Gail

Gail! I think that is why this book is such a hit. We all can see a little bit of ourselves in it. I've marked all over my book. The strangest think happened this morning when I was on the treadmill. I read when I walk on the treadmill and I was just finishing a book my daughter had sitting around entitled Shade written by Neil Jordan. I got to the last chapter where a eulogy was being given. This is the paragraph I read with astonishment as I quickly grabbed the book and looked at the cover to make certain I had the same book.

He walks to the lectern coughs and reads, in slow, deliberate cut-glass tones, the lines of a hymn, "There is a balm in Gilead' and manages to keep to himself his suspicion that in fact there is none. But there is is balm of kinds for him, if not in Gilead and it arrives midway thru his reading....

What the heck is going on I'm thinking? I just finished Gilead last night and here I am reading about it in a completely different text.

Don't you love it?

Marilynne Robinson Interview #1

Interview #2 On Writing Process, Housekeeping & More

Marvelle

In a NYT Book Review interview in May 13, 1984, Marilynne Robinson says of her literary influences:

"If to admire and to be influenced are more or less the same thing, I must be influenced most deeply by the 19th-century Americans--Dickenson, Melville, Thoreau, Whitman, Emerson and Poe. Nothing in literature appeals to me more than the rigor with which they fasten on problems of language, of consciousness--bending form to their purposes, ransacking ordinary speech and common experience, rummaging through the exotic and the recondite, setting Promethean doubts to hymn tunes, refining popular magazine tales into arabesques, pondering bean fields, celebrating the float and odor of hair, always, to borrow a phrase from Wallace Stevens, in the act of finding what will suffice. I think they must have believed everything can be apprehended truly when it is seen in the light of an esthetic understanding appropriate to itself, whence their passion for making novel orders of disparate things."

Marvelle

Thank you, Andy, for the words to the hymn. I couldn't even bring up the tune until I saw them. Now they'll probably run through my head until I go nuts.

And Marvelle, what an interesting interview. I already feel a tie to this fellow Presbyterian, now a Congregationalist. Weren't some of the Dante Club members Congregationalists?

"I think if you don't know the Bible, it's hard to know literature," says Robinson in this interview. Wow! Now there's a topic for discussion.

I didn't get this book for Christmas, so now it's on order. Supposedly due to arrive next week. I'm glad, Joan, that you only plan to read the first 50 pages the first week. In the meantime, I'm thoroughly enjoying and learning from everyone's comments.

Pedln, "Weren't some of the Dante Club members Congregationalists?" Yikes, that makes one think, doesn't it? But she does feel a connection to people of that period; and she's a preacher too.

Marvelle

I just got the book from the library so I may join in the discussion.

http://junior.apk.net/~bmames/ht0120_.htm

I have ordered this book. It has not arrived yet.

The Congregational Church in Haverhill, Massachusetts where I grew up is known as the "North Church." It is located across Main Street from the First Baptist Church, which has a large congregation. These are only three of the many churches in Haverhill.

The Universalist-Unitarian Chuch in which I grew up is a bit farther north at the intersection of Main Street and Kenoza Avenue. Ralph Waldo Emerson was one of the best-known Unitarian preachers, as you probably know. I have sung solos in all of these churches and listened to sermons preached from their pulpits many times.

It seems to be a tradition that the wealthy people at the top of Society in my hometown attend the Congregational Church. The Universalist-Unitarian Church has had its share, but not like the Congregationalists.

The Congregational Church was the church of the Puritans and John Calvin. Puritans believed in baptism and the Lord's Supper. Calvinism stresses the absolute authority of God, and believes that only an elect group who are predestined from the beginning of time can achieve salvation. Congregationalism is more lenient now.

There was a conflict between the Unitarians and the Congregationalists in Massachusetts in the 1700's. When I was growing up the Congregationalists looked down on Universalist-Unitarians, partially because the UU's were not accepted into the Protestant Council of Churches. The reason for that is because they do not believe in the divinity of Jesus or the existence of Hell.

Little did I know when I sang solos in those churches as a teenager that I would sing in the First Congregational "Edwards" Church in Northampton, Massachusetts where I went to college. The first service in that church was held June 18, 1661. A number of famous ministers served during the 17th and early 18th centuries, including the Rev. Solomon Stoddard, ordained in 1672, and his grandson, the Rev. Jonathan Edwards, who took the pulpit when his grandfather died.

Edwards was of a scientific bent and maintained that Newton's philosophy implies that the universe is a system in which everything follows necessarily from prior causes. Therefore, the choices of people who live in the universe as described by Newton must be predetermined from the beginning of time. Several of his contemporaries claimed that God would not allow some to be predestined to Hell.

The choir loft in which I sat in that Congregational Church in Northampton, Massachusetts looked down on the pulpit where Jonathan Edwards preached fire and brimstone. It gave me a strange feeling of history to be there.

Mal

Thanks, Malryn and Marvelle, for the information on Robinson. It's much more pertinent and useful than the 'biography' I found. The quote from Marilynne Robinson was so scholarly and erudite, I found myself glad she didn't write her book like that!

So, we begin tomorrow, right? I'm glad we're to have this opportunity to talk about the things we are finding in this book.

Babi

I think the sun and wind in the Keys knocked everything completely out of my mind. That must be the reason that after posting my cheerful "I'm back" message, I forgot to subscribe.

O, no! I thought to myself when I came to check SeniorNet this afternoon. I posted and everyone went away.

Seriously, first thing I thought was that I must have forgotten to subscribe since when I left for the Keys we had just switched over to the new server and I just assumed (and we all know where assuming leads us) that of course I would be subscribed to this new discussion.

I will try to get my wits into better shape by tomorrow. No promises though.

I'm certainly not an expert on theology though I was raised by a theologian--wish I had paid better attention or asked better questions.

I do teach a course on the Bible as Literature but that certainly doesn't make me an expert.

I think the reason that Marilynne Robinson's name isn't more familiar to many is that her only other novel, Housekeeping although highly praised and prize-winning, was published in the eighties. It's been a long wait for this second novel.

Maryal

That's what we are here. Rugged! I like the sound of that word. Deems, I couldn't for the life of me figure out how you and Susan could have listened to a book with an I-Pod. It really piqued my interst so I asked the expert. He's 16 and I received a crash course in the usage of the new IPods. Oh this technology is super, isn't it?

Pictures of upper Gilead

MarjV, welcome from one SNer to another. Malryn, I'll cross my fingers for the swift arrival of your copy of Gilead.

This is a perfect book for cozy winter days as one sips tea or mulled wine and savors the almost palpable taste of Robinson's words.

Marvelle

I got my copy of Gilead in the nick of time on New Year's Eve. I ordered it from my ever faithful Amazon around the 20th, but I think it got caught in the everyone-is-on-vacation-and-who-cares-when-you-get-your-package syndrome. The tracking number showed it was within 2 hours of my house on December 22nd, but it took until December 31st to get here! I bet it was laying all cold and lonely somewhere...

I read the first 50 pages tonight, and I'm not sure this is the book for me. I just finished The Five People You Meet in Heaven , and I didn't care much for it. Perhaps I'm reading this book too soon afterwards. I also have a dying brother-in-law and some recent health problems of my own, so perhaps the timing isn't good.

Right now it just seems a little too pat, too precious - oh, I don't think I know how to say what I mean. I'm betting that after I start reading all of your comments tomorrow though that I will have a better appreciation. I'm glad to be reading with you all,

Pamela

Scamper--Pamela--Do give the book a little longer. We'll all help each other to find that which intrigues us. I agree with Marvelle that the book needs to be savored, perhaps it's time to whip up a batch of mulled wine. Hmmmmm?

Andy--Ah yes, the wonders of technology. Susan has four books on her iPod and a number of music CDs and she still has used only 8 of her 40 kilobites of memory. Plus, once you finish the book, you can just erase it. With a hook up that plugs into what used to be the cigarette lighter and a car seat, the iPod tells us stories through the radio speakers in the car. Glad you had a handy 16 year old around to explain to you.

When I first saw the title of this book, I thought of the old hymn that Ginny typed for us above. "There is a balm in Gilead. . .to heal the sinsick soul." It's one of the oldies but goodies. Nice music too.

Maryal

Pamela--Forgot to tell you that I read The Five People..... in Borders one evening, probably much too fast, but I agree with you. I didn't think much of it either. This book doesn't remind me of it at all.

M

Don't you feel upbeat and optimistic when you hang up a new calendar? We began the year with a 75 degree day in the Washington area - took grandkids to playground in tee shirts - no coats! They were so excited. I take this as a sign that we are in for a highly unusual year.

Pamela, I had a similar conversation with my young DIL to-to-be (just announced engagement a few days ago) - she was having some difficulty getting into Gilead too. I can see where you have reservations about reading of death and dying at this time. Maryal is right, there is much more to the story than this particular man's impending death. It is about life really - a life well-lived. And as M. Robinson says, through John Ames - "There are many ways to lead a good life."

So much room to ruminate - I'm sure the participants in this discussion will lead you down unexpected paths not obvious at first glance. You can't race through Marilynne Robinson's prose just as you can't race through poetry. It requires more from you -

Please, please, feel free, everyone, to post whatever gets your attention WHEN you read it - don't wait, you might not remember later! Let's look at these first 50 pages as a free-for-all. Post quotes or observations when they occur. If you can answer any of the questions posed in the heading - or by other participants, we're counting on you to do that too.

Happy New Year Everyone! Let's get on with it!

I have just read through some of your pre-discussion comments and would like to thank you and recognize them before we go forward.

First, a big Welcome to you, MarjV! And thank you for bringing the music to the hymn, "There is a balm in Gilead" - (be sure to wait two second for the music to begin.) Are any of you familiar with this hymn? Have you sung it, Mal? How are the rest of you pronouncing "Giliad"??? I'm rhyming it with "Iliad" - with a hard G (as in girl) first?

Thank you, Mal for the photos of the hills of Gilead. "Rugged" - as Andy describes them. I have a question about Iowa - is it similarly hilly in places too? After driving through much of Iowa this summer, my memory comes up short - prairie flat with zillions of sunflowers. Where's Jane when we need her!

Thanks to both Mal and Marvelle for the interesting links to some of Marilynne Robinson's interviews. You certainly learn more about her in the interviews than in the "official" biography on the book jacket and elsewhere...

I too found it particularly interesting that M.R. is/was a Congregationalist preacher, Babi. That familiarity explains the John Ames characterization as a clergyman.

There was something in one of the interviews that made me pause...- I think it was you who quoted M. R., Marvelle
"Nothing in literature appeals to me more than the rigor with which they fasten on problems of language, of consciousness--bending form to their purposes, ransacking ordinary speech and common experience, rummaging through the exotic and the recondite, setting Promethean doubts to hymn tunes..."
Do you think this refers to the Gilead "hymn tune" we've been looking at?

Babi - you're comment - that you are glad MR didn't write her book like that - "so scholarly and erudite" - reminded me of something that the John Ames character said about his own writing. It makes me wonder if MR is writing about herself through this character...I'm looking forward to hearing how YOU all understood this quote
"I don't write the way I speak. I do try to write the way I think."

Lots of other questions about Congregationalists and Methodists, Calvinists and predestination...and how this relates to John Ames. But will save that for another day.

That's enough bytes from me for today - the floor is yours. Each of you has such a unique approach - you dazzle. I'll get out of your way!

"Is there no balm in Gilead? Is there no physician there? Why then is not the health of the daughter of my people recovered? Jeremiah 8:22"
"The word balm is derived from balsam, which originated from the Greek word (pronounced) balsamon, which was adopted to represent the Hebrew words baal shemen, meaning 'lord of oils.' (the term Baal is used in various ways in the Old Testament"

It's been suggested that the Balm of Gilead is made from Cistus (picture).
"These evergreens (from the Mediterranean region) are called Rockroses for their conspicuous single papery blooms, resembling wild rose blossoms. Though these last only a day, they arrive in such profusion, carpeting the ground beneath, that one can count on color for 2 or 3 months.

"Fast growing and appreciative of well drained sites, they tolerate drought, poor soil, ocean winds, salt spray and even desert heat. Cistus vary from low spreaders to tall, imposing bushes."

". . . the most desirable time to visit Dibbeen is in the late spring in the afternoon. Shrubs are still green, some flowers of Cistus are present. After the hot day, resin is obvious on the plants. Pine leaves, Cistus, and various native mints combine to give a sweet fragrance." (Dibeen is located in Jordan.)
When I think about the hymn, "There is a balm in Gilead", I think about my Grandmother Stubbs. It and "The Old Rugged Cross" were two of her favorite hymns. She had a hard life in rocky Maine as the wife of a strict potato farmer who lived by the Bible. She was the mother of 9 children and was always searching for something to ease her joy-starved soul. Gilead is a kind of forbidding place, an unlikely one to be the source of a soothing balm, it seems to me. Perhaps out of suffering there comes peace?

Robinson calls the book "Gilead", not the "Balm of Gilead". This suggests to me that perhaps that she could be leading us on a search through a rugged terrain to some sort of comfort.

Mal

Initial impressions of: Gilead ( named for a town) and written by Marillynne Robinson. 1/2/05

The author has created a novel set in a mythical small American farming town and ranging in time from the 1860s to the 1950s or 1960s. And within that local she has constructed a unique segment of society used to bound a mind-set centered around deep religious issues. Almost without exception all of the male characters are either preachers, will be a preacher or in one case is often thought to be a preacher. (Shades of Jonathan Edwards from New England, the “God-infatuated man”)

The format is a letter from an elderly father to his young son. This is much like the “Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin” but worlds away from the secular Franklin. It proceeds in a long series of vignettes that continually work to change our perspective to that of the narrator, Rev. John Ames. But near the end of his faith-based, placid life a moral dilemma is introduced. It involves the dealings of our narrator and a young man who’s questions and actions have shaken his world with thoughts that the preacher has difficulty handling. One of these is his own impending death. Jealously? Failure?

It is somewhat like reading the Bible, with a genealogy, a long series of interesting “stories”, and ending with a powerful one. This book ends with the retelling of the tale of the Prodical Son but describes the “son’s” entire life, his departure and return, his relationship with his surrogate father (Rev. Ames) and a final twist.

There is another version of the Prodical Son tale in his brother Edward’s relationship with John’s father. Can you also see the theme of Cain and Abel in the book?

I was impressed with the author’s ability to portray the inner thoughts, self doubts and struggles of an elderly “man of the cloth.” Incidently, I could not help thinking that his wife, like many preacher/minster’s wives, as truly a saint. And making the book more believable is the restraint but highly strained conflict between two preachers who just happen to be father and son. As Linus might say, “Good Grief!”

Thanks to all the contributors for their bio and general background material.

(More later about individual characters and actions).

What do you think?

newvoyager

PS I read it during a driving rainstorm outside while in a cozy armchair in my retirement “office.” I felt that I knew this man from somewhere. Happy New Year to all!

THANKS, MALRYN. I had just reached for my Bible and reviewing what I knew about the balm of Gilead, and lo!, you saved me all that trouble.

When I first realized this entire book was supposed to be a letter, I was definitely wary. A letter of nearly 250 pages?!! By now, however, I have relaxed and take it as it comes...with considerable pleasure.

The old man explains to his son that he is getting old; his son insists he is not. He tells his son that he might have a very different life from that of his father (and grandfather and great-grandfather), perhaps a much better one. I suppose he was letting the boy know it was all right if he decided not to become a minister also. I liked the incident described next: The boy placed a finger on his fathers lips and gave him a fierce look. "That look I never in my life saw on any other face besides your mother's. It's a look of fierce pride, very passionate and stern. I'm always a little surprised to find my eyebrows unsinged after one of those looks." In that one episode I feel I have met, and like, both mother and son.

Babi

I found it intriguing that Rev. Ames has all those sermons in the attic. He figured he had about 250 books worth, all carefully written out. He doesn't quite know what to do with them - they represent his life, and he's not sure how he's come out of that, either. He feels responsible for their disposition, but he is afraid to look at them. What if they all read badly to him now? He doesn't want to face that. On the other hand, there might be 'one or two' worth giving to his son. He just doesn't know and doesn't feel quite up to the challenge. Great symbolism.

This reminds me in some ways of families and their photo albums. Most people stuff photos in a box somewhere, and some manage to get them all filed away neatly in albums. If others are like me, the photos slow down as we age. It seems like all the Christmases look the same after the first 30 years! But what I've been made aware of recently is how little future generations will care about those photos. My niece through a series of family tragedies has the photos from several families, and in her life of work and kids they are just something she has to figure out where to put. So my nice row of leather photo albums are likely to be mainly a storage problem to future generations. Oh, I know there will be exceptions. But maybe the lesson here - and to Rev. Ames - is life is what you live at the moment, not what you preserve for the future.

Pamela

I wasn't sure about Rev. Ames and his wife. Did he have an early wife and child that were killed, and then marry again to the narrator's mother? Am I confused?

Yes, Scamper, this son's mother is the second wife, who came into his life much later after many years of loneliness. The first wife died and I'm not certain about an earlier child. (How soon we forget!!)

...Babi

THE BALM! The Reverend needs to soothe and revive his "sin-sick "soul; to relieve and heal his thoughts of yesteryear and he chooses to do so by writting this epistle for his son. What an apt title the author has chosen- Gilead, the rugged highland region of ancient Palestine, a virtual Promised Land. Gilead played a very prominent role in Biblical history. It gave us Judges, Kings and the great prophet Elijah. Jacob outwitted Laban and headed to Gilead and Moses was shown all the land (Gilead.)

I feel that the Rev. needs to be restored as anger and lonliness are such preveleant emotions in this novel. On pg 6 the Rev. says:

"A little too much anger, too often or at the wrong time, can destroy more than you would ever imagine."

That hits very close to home for me. I have a tendency to shoot off at the mouth when I'm angry and I try to be ever vigilant with my tongue as he warns. It grieved his father that angry words transpired between him and the grandfather, with never a chance of reconciliation. He believed that both men were full of anger and bitterness toward one another.
Edward and the father had angry words that could never be taken back. It appears as if this anger is a theme throughout the story.

I have written "stuff" all my life, and much of it is in a three-ring binder that sits on the shelf behind my computer. I have always figured that when I die, the kids will toss that binder out without a second thought, which makes me a bit sad.

So when I came to the part where the Rev. Ames speculates on the fate of all his sermons, I really felt I knew what he was saying. And I recalled the Rev. Abner Peet's lament in Spoon River Anthology that goes:

I had no objection at all/ To selling my household effects at auction/ On the village square./ It gave my beloved flock the chance/ To get something which had belonged to me/ For a memorial./ But that trunk which was struck off/ To Burchard, the grog-keeper!/ Did you know it contained the manuscripts/ Of a lifetime of sermons?/ And he burned them as waste paper./

The poor old Rev. has recently been diagnosed with "angina pectoris." He states that it has a theological sound to it- like misericordia.
Misericordia- or heart of mercy! Perfect for this story. It's a Latin word for compassion or mercy (oity). The word Misericord is also a noun that means a small projection in the underside of a hinged set of a church stall that gives support when the seat is lifted to a person standing in the stall. I wonder if the author meant us to see the story this way. It is also defined as a medieval dagger to inforce the coup de grace to a foe. HM-mmmm

I've known people who have lived for years and years with angina and had just as heavy a load in their heart as our Rev. holds.

So many wonderful comments. Joan--You have the pronunciation of Gilead the way I've always heard it.--hard G and the rest rhymes with Iliad. That's the way the hymn goes anyway. Mal's grandmother from Maine had "There is a Balm in Gilead" as one of her two favorite hymns; It's one of the old ones that I have always loved.

The Reverend John Ames is definitely a Congregationalist. He mentions Calvin more than once and his best friend Boughton is a Presbyterian minister. They have all sorts of discussions about theology apparently. What's amusing to me is that in terms of doctrine the Presbyterian Church (liberal branch) and the Congregational Church are identical. It is only in how the church is organized that they differ.

The Congregational Church, always very strong in the Northeast, is now the United Church of Christ because it merged with a small Protestant group, the Evangelical United Bethren I think, and they took a new name. The group that merged back in had originally been Congregational. Anyway, the name change reflects the merger which occurred roughly in the 1970s. The Methodist Church and another small branched-off group reunited at about the same time and, wisely I think, became the United Methodist Church.

Everything would have been less confusing if any other name than United Church of Christ had been chosen because there is already a "Church of Christ" which is very evangelical in nature (no instruments in church services because there is no Biblical basis for them) and the complete opposite of the Congregational Church. Anyway, the name change was made and there you have it.

Scamper--I was struck by those boxes and boxes of sermons too! My father (a Congregational minister) always hand wrote his sermons on half sheets of 8 1/2 X 11 paper. He wrote them in pencil in quite neat handwriting, both sides of the sheet. When he got to a certain number of pages--I think it was about seven--he knew that he had a sermon that would fit into 12 minutes. I don't think he ever preached a sermon longer than 12 minutes. The use of the same size paper kept him in his time limit.

Anyway, there were boxes and boxes of these sermons by the time he was ailing at 91. When he died I kept one box. It is currently down in my basement. I've never read the sermons. I just couldn't get rid of all of them. And he wasn't just a parish minister. Mostly he was a teacher at a theological seminary. Much of his "life's work" was reflected in those generations of students he taught.

When I got to that description (page 19) I knew that this was the novel that I should have written. I even got a little upset that it had never occurred to me to write this novel because I know its background so well. Ah well, one more lost opportunity.

My only other comment for this session is that I love the bookjacket. Clearly it is a door that has been painted or white washed. It is the kind of door that has a cross design among its panels (all the doors in my house have this kind of wooden door) BUT, and here's the really neat thing for me, it also reminds me of all those crossroads in the middle west that meet at absolute right angles, fields on both sides. When I think of the midwest I think flat and fields of corn or fields that will have corn (or other crops--wheat soy beans). When you approach on of these rural intersections, you can see from miles away whether or not there is another car on the other road. For me, It's an aerial view of an intersection and a door.

And then there's the one word title. So many small towns in this country have Biblical names. I think Robinson picked "Gilead" because of the hymn though, so I will be on the outlook for a potential balm as well as a "sinsick" soul.

Maryal

Balm in Gilead Jeremiah 8:22. Having read the Chapter, to me, it seems a fitting theme for the narrator’s own remembrances. Gilead was supposed to be where balm was in abundance and yet the verse asks the question: “Is there no balm in Gilead?” Is this a question Rev Ames asks of himself at this stage of his life? As a spiritual healer, should he not be aware and consoled that his whole life seems to have been one of being a balm to those he has served? At this point, I find myself asking, “For whom is this writing meant?” As a legacy for his son or perhaps a balm for himself as a kind of readying for death?

Deems, your church taxonomy is most interesting. I didn't know that the Evangelical United Church had evolved from the Congregational. Now you have me wondering where the Disciples of Christ (Christian Church) fits in this grouping, if indeed it does.

My copy has been shipped, so I'm told, In the meantime, I'm enjoying and learning much from everone's comments.

Scamper, I don't think your photo albums will go to waste. It's been my experience that they are brought out in times of crisis and in times of great joy -- when the family gathers before or after a funeral, or when a new member joins the family.

Deems, one would guess that your father's sermons were very popular, and that his congregation could beat the Baptists or the Methodists when dining out for Sunday dinner. We have a very popular, always crowded Sunday dinner restaurant here, and if the minister gets a little long winded, someone is bound to comment, "We're not going to beat the Baptists today."

Did you know that Jean Cauvin (John Calvin), lost a wife and baby in childbirth, then remained unmarried for decades like Ames?

Mal

What an opening day! Oh myohmyohmy! I love the way you are already sharing insights from the first fifty pages of the story. (I think Marilynne Robinson would love this too. Can anyone find a web site, email address or her publisher's email address?) A record of individual insights gained from this book - and the discussion, should be valuable and even inspirational -

"But maybe the lesson here - and to Rev. Ames - is life is what you live at the moment, not what you preserve for the future." Pamela
Do you all agree? (I'm thinking of the boxes of unmarked family photos in my attic - am determined to at least get them identified, even if I don't get them into neat leather albums like you did.) You are an inspiration. But what about books - or Gail's collection of "stuff" she has written? (Thanks for Abner Peet's regrets, Gail - how apropos!) Will anyone ever read the words that meant so much to another? I'm thinking of the box of your father's sermons too, Maryal - what will Susan do with them when you're - gone? I think Pamela is on to something - the writing is "balm" for the person writing - as John Ames says, writing is like praying to him. I had to smile at M. Robinson's dry humor here -

"It's humiliating to have written as much as Augustine and then have to find a way to dispose of it."

But what of letters? Personal letters directed to the next generation? My own mother died when I was seven and I am absolutely certain that a letter of consolation, reassurance and advice would have meant everything to me.

"Perhaps out of suffering there comes peace?" Mal

"Perhaps his long bout of loneliness and introspection has mellowed him." Andy. I think so too. He says something about solitude being "a balm for loneliness" I've been thinking hard about that. What do you think - an interesting thought, no?

"The balm of Gilead" - Babi, you have come to "like" both the mother and son. Isn't it funny how M.Robinson doesn't flesh out the female characters and yet we feel we know them? I enjoyed reading in one of the interviews provided here yesterday that every time she began to insert a female characterization into the story, she took her out, much like when she wrote Housekeeping she kept removing the males because they did not quite "fit".

The boy interests me - can he be the "balm"? My brother at 65 has fathered little Liam and their relationship is much like the relationship betweeen the father and this boy. To my brother, Liam is balm and the chance to redeem a life full of regrets. I pray that he will be with this boy more than the seven years the Reverend has had with his son.

Another list - Andy, you list ANGER as one of the themes of this book. Also mentioned here is the dictum - "Honor Thy Father (and Mother)" Shall we keep a list of possible themes that have begun to bud in the first 50 pages? What else would you include on this list?

Andy, I'm not sure I see our Reverend consumed with anger - although his grandfather and to some extent his father, are angry men. How do you see him? Oh, he has regrets. He has lived a lonely existence since the death of his first wife - and daughter. She died at birth, Babi - was baptized "Angeline" instead of Rebecca as planned, because he was away when his wife went into premature labor and died at childbirth. Do you suppose he was angry with himself because he was not with her at the time?

Maryal, I have spent some time smoothing the design of the graphic with my hand, trying to get in touch somehow with the artist's inspiration...a church door, I concluded. BUT I loved this:

"it also reminds me of all those crossroads in the middle west that meet at absolute right angles, fields on both sides. When I think of the midwest I think flat and fields of corn or fields that will have corn (or other crops--wheat soy beans). When you approach on of these rural intersections, you can see from miles away whether or not there is another car on the other road."

I am searching for Iowa in these pages and your observation on the cover fits in perfectly with M. Robinson's desire to get in touch with the "place".

Newvoyager- "within that local she has constructed a unique segment of society used to bound a mind-set centered around deep religious issues." Is this Iowa too - during the 1860's? There is are many references to Protestant denominations...people seem to be identified by their religious affiliation...the little Lutheran playmate, etc...

Newvoyager, yes, it IS "somewhat like reading the Bible," isn't it? and yet you feel that you have "met this man somewhere." Perhaps that is why this book has attracted such a large audience - it is the humanity of this man that one can relate to - and religion, formal organized religion doesn't have much to do with it at all - (or does it?)

Maryal, I'll save my questions about Calvinism and Predestination for tomorrow. Mal, that's something to think about, isn't it? I'd like to know more about John Calvin. Even though M. Robinson is a Congregationalist minister - she has characterized the Reverend Ames as a Methodist minister - am I right about that? He does does not seem to exhibit a belief in predestination ...Methodists were never associated with Calvinists, do I have that right? They are a direct branch of the Church of England and believed that good works were the way to salvation.

Have a great day, everyone. I cannot wait to hear more from you. You are amazing! Thank you for sharing your insights!

Pedln, The Disciples of Christ (Christian Church) evolved from a Presbyterian, Thomas Campbell, in the Middle East - PA, OH, who called themselves Campbellites.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/ch/ChristChDC.html

JOAN, thanks for reminding me of little Angeline/Rebecca. How could I have forgotten?! And thank you for sharing your brother and his small Liam with us.

I once attempted to trace the evolution of Protestant churches in this country, and found the splits, spin-offs, mergers, etc. impossible to keep straight. What a hodgepodge, and what a reflection on the contrariness of the opinionated! LOL

ALF, I also don't believe Rev. Ames has anger issues at this point, or he would not be able, IMO, to write as he does. Now, he is at a place where he sees beauty in the most common ordinary things, like two young men laughing together. The angers of the past, his own and his father/grandfathers, are now simply the occasion of regret and cautions.

BERN, you raised a thoughtful question: whether this 'letter' was really a legacy to the son, or a balm for the father. Surely, it could be both; in fact, how could it fail to be?

just passing through - to say that I missed Bern's post earlier - I agree, Babi - her post does give us something to consider.

His whole life seems to have been one of being a balm to those he has served? At this point, I find myself asking, “For whom is this writing meant?” As a legacy for his son or perhaps a balm for himself as a kind of readying for death?"

Rev. Ames spent his whole life in Gilead...grew up, married young to his childhood sweetheart... He regards the years spent as widower as a dark time, a period in which the balm for his loneliness was solitude. Yet all this time he ministered to the needs of others in Gilead. Bern, which was the balm then - his solitude, or the time spent serving others? Both? Would you be content having a man like this as your spiritual counselor? I think the letter is "balm" for himself insofar as he feels he is writing it for his son. Another example of this dual life he has been living - solitude/loneliness/ministry to others

Hmmm. If writing for John Ames is "like Prayer," then it seems to me that his writing is indeed balm for his disappointment that he won't in all likelihood live to see his nearly seven-year-old son grow up.

Did anyone else find the baptizing of the kittens just wonderful? I kept thinking of those warm little kitten brows and how Ames felt when he baptized them. His whole meditation on baptism is wonderful.

Also I looked up Ludwig Feuerbach and sure enough he was a real philosopher/theologian. He was German (1804-1872) who came to the conclusion that God was a human invention. Years ago, Ames' older brother, Edward gave him Feurbach's The Essence of Christianity, hoping to tame his religious fervor, or perhaps simply to temper the religious influence on him. Obviously Ames is an open-minded man. He read the book, kept his faith, and even commends it to his son. He is willing to entertain all manner of ideas. He keeps well away from becoming too involved in doctrine and controversey.

It's also interesting to me that Ames' wife is 41. He mentions that his own little dead daughter, had she lived, would now be 51. I also like how he keeps referring to this lost daughter as Rebecca, the name he and his wife had planned to give her, instead of Angelina, the name she was baptized with because no one was there to tell Boughton the intended name.

For many years, Ames imagined what Rebecca's reaction to his sermon would be if she walked into service some Sunday morning. Isn't it interesting that this tiny infant who died shortly after she was born has remained in his consciousness for so long.

Maryal

I loved the kitchen baptismal scene, too. It was full of emotion and yet funny, too. Especially when the young boy just 'happened' to ask what the situation might be if kittens were to be baptised, LOL.

Pamela

Methodism

"Methodist doctrines follow Anglican ideas on the vital role of scripture, the sacraments of infant baptism and the Lord's supper, and the trinity. Methodists follow the Arminian doctrine that salvation is open to everyone, and not just a predestined elect as Calvin asserted. Furthermore each person is not inherently sinful and is completely free to reject or follow this chance of salvation. Methodism also tends towards accepting the possibility of Christian perfectionism, that Christians can experience a second moment of spiritual assurance after their conversion which enables them to live a life of true holiness. In general there is more emphasis on how to live a truly Christian life by following a set method of discipline and prayer in a communal atmosphere than on theological doctrines. Because of this Methodists have a powerful impetus to undertake evangelical and social work."

Source:

Methodism

My great frustration is that the book I ordered has not arrived. Brunelleschi's Dome, which I ordered after I ordered Gilead has already come, and that discussion doesn't begin until the 15th.

I read "Misericordia" and I think music. There is a chorale in the Bach Magnificat, which is "Et Misericordia" (And Mercy). There is a Cantata Misericordia by Benjamin Britten. I can't remember if there's a Misericordia in the Requiems by Verdi and Mozart, but I think there is.

Joan said she was going to bring up Calvinism today. Marilynne Robinson has written a good deal about Calvinism, including essays about it in her book, The Death of Adam: Essays on Modern Thought. I've found articles about Calvinism on the web written by her. One, especially, I find significant. It is "Heresies and real presences" found on the Servetus International Society website.

Raised in the Presbyterian denomination, a Calvinist religion, Marilynne Robinson changed to the Congregational Church, which is said to be less stringently Calvinist than Presbyterianism, but Calvinist nevertheless.

Robinson acknowledges evolution, but she does not like the Richard Dawkins' type of Darwinism. She states this in an essay called "Darwinism" found in The Death of Adam. Essays on Modern Thought. A critic has said these essays are more like sermons than they are not. He also said that whether readers agree with her points-of-view or not, they are "better off for hearing them."

I'm anxious to see how much she follows her Calvinistic leanings in Gilead. Since I worked hard to overcome the guilt effects of a Puritanical New England upbringing by old-fashioned down Maine Calvin Methodists, which conflicted with what I was exposed to and learned in the Unitarian Church, I hope there isn't much.

( I wonder if Robinson's parents named her "Marilynne", or if she added the "ne" at the end of her name to distinguish herself from a crowd of ordinary Marilyns like me? )

Mal

Like Newoyager...I was impressed with the author’s ability to portray the inner thoughts, self doubts and struggles of an elderly “man of the cloth.” It was informative to learn that the author is herself "of the cloth" - but to portray the struggles of an elderly, dying man - or even one who spent most of his life alone. Where does this ability - this experiene come from?

Maryal, your comment that this is the book that you yourself might have written stays with me. You had similar experience the young John Ames had - growing up in a religion-centered environment. Did you feel as John Ames did - that you were never quite up to your father's expectations? That you were a disappointment to him? For the life of me, I can't figure out how the young John could feel this way. Except perhaps because his father was a man guided completely by his principles, whereas young John's view towards his religion was guided more by man's human struggles...he made exceptions where his father could not. Edward was truly a disappointment to dad - a lost soul. Yet John viewed this brother as a "good man".

M. Robinson seems to be a "cat woman" - in my world one is either a cat or a dog-lover, rarely both. And I can usually tell a lot about a person from their preference. Do you find that - or is it just me. I can understand the similarity between the "feel" of those little kitten heads to a small boy's hand and the clergyman's hand on the head of the wee baby he baptizes. Marilynne Robinson seems to have first-hand knowledge of this "feel"...

Pamela, you bring up something not mentioned too often - or often enough - M.R.'s humor. There are so many examples...some of it very dry. I'm so glad you brought that up. One scene I especially liked...when the grandfather and young John were offering grace before consuming the dryed out bunch of carrots - offering thanks for the "bounty" they were about to receive. hahaha - and they cracked up laughing about it. I don't think that the laughter would have been allowed had John been sharing the same "bounty" with his own father.

Maryal points out the age difference between the Reverend's second wife - his daughter would have been ten years older than his wife had she lived. Doing some quick, rough math, the Reverend has spent approximately 50 years alone between the death of first wife and the time he meets and marries the young 35-40 year old woman. I would love to explore those years...and how he managed his clerical duties - while preferring his solitude. I can't let go of the idea that solitude was the balm for his loneliness What does this MEAN to you? Does it make sense? Obviously it worked for 50 years for the Reverend Ames.

Okay, Mal, I'd love to spend some time getting into Calvinism - and Methodism today. Like Babi, I find it difficult to keep the beliefs - the evolution of the tenets of the different Protestant denominations straight. I think it is important that we understand NOT so much how they have evolved today, but where they were back in the post-Civil War days in order to understand the differences between John Ames grandfather's approach to religion and his father's.

Pat, I was interested in reading the link you provided - on the Disciples of Christ..."The merged “Disciples” and “Christians” developed strongly and rapidly after the Civil War, particularly in the central and western states" - That link puts us right in the midwest (Iowa) and in the time period too.

"Its (Disprimary thesis is that the Bible alone should form the basis for faith and conduct, each individual interpreting the Bible for himself or herself."

Can we start with this idea. How do (did) other protestant denominations differ from this basic belief?

Malryn, I just see your post - and it leads to a consideration of the differences between Methodism and Calvinism. I hope we can open this discussion today - it seems important in understanding John Ames and his struggle to honor both his father and grandfather.

Back late this afternoon. Can't wait!

Joan isn't fond of complicated questions this morning is she? Let's straighten out all the Protestant denominations in our spare time. O dear o deary me. YIKES.

That said:

Episcopal Church (Anglican)--origin--King Henry VIII and the divorce thing. After much wrangling with the Pope, Henry declares himself head of the Church in England (which becomes the state church). Two, or possibly three varieties of Episcopalians in this country--High church and low church and somewhere in between. High church Anglicans have lots of the ceremony of a Catholic service, Incense. They kneel on benches in the pews, etc.

Methodist Church--breaks off from the Anglican Church in the 18th century. Founder is John Wesley who saw that the church wasn't doing anything for the poor and disenfranchised. Brother Charles Wesley writes many many hymns, some of them still sung in many protestant services. Methodists are known for their singing. Go to a Methodist church and everyone will have a hymn book and be singing forth the hymns. Go to a Lutheran Church and some may be singing others not.

Later the Calvinists. Is this what you had in mind, Joan?

There's little doctrinal difference between Congregationalists, Presbyterians, and Methodists. Most of the differences have to do with the organization of the church. Methodists have bishops and a sort of Catholic structure. Congregationalists do not.

Maryal

Methodists: Slavery and the Civil War. 1844-1865

Methodists: Reconstruction, Prosperity and New Issues. 1866-1913

As I said before anger is a prevelant theme but I didn't mean that our Reverend was angry. He appears, to me, a very placid, composed and serene sort who is just trying to get his affairs in order. His father, his grandfather, his brother, his friend's son- they have all of the anger. When this poor laid-back soul sits down, he often falls asleep. He hasn't enough energy to make room for anger; nor does he have enough time. He is characterized as unruffled in most instances. He mentions that he loves the sound of his son's laughter and that the sound of his voice as well as the child's mother. His love is strong for this woman and he projects her as angelic, almost saintlike. I wonder if that's intentional?

I love this sentence; "There's a lot under the surface of life, everyone knows that. A lot of malice and dread and guilt, and so much lonliness, where you owuldn't expect to find it either."

The theme of anger and lonliness kept rearing its ugly head on every few pages. I apologise if you misunderstood me or if I misspoke.

I gave up waiting for my library to get my copy of the book, so I went out and bought it! It will take me a bit to catch up, but all these wonderful postings really hooked me, so I couldn't help myself.

haha- we snagged you. Welcome aboard.

Thanks for clarifying your statements on anger, ALF. I'm in total agreement with what you have written above. John Ames serenity pervades the book. But the humor is very much there, also, as someone pointed out. (Sorry, I don't do a good job of keeping track of who said what.)

These lines gave me pause: "..you can know a thing to death and be for all purposes completely ignorant of it." "A man can know his father, or his son, and there might still be nothing between them but loyalty and love and mutual incomprehension."

On thinking about it, I have to agree that is true. But isn't it strange? And I think it applies to other things as well. Perhaps all the things of which one has 'head knowledge', but no real understanding?

Babi

tomereader, so very happy that you gave up on the library...long waiting lists I've heard - for Marilynne Robinson's Homecoming too - written some 20 years ago! Welcome!

- You shouldn't have trouble catching up - we're starting slowly - just the first 50 pages this week. I hope you and Pedln get your copies soon, Mal. Can you track the order?

Geee, Maryal, I can't believe I asked some of those questions this morning! I can't believe I asked you if you were a disappointment to your father!!! hahahaha, I'm sorry. I'm so sorry! I guess I was wondering if it was difficult growing up ...no, I'm doing it again. I'll leave that one alone. Thank you for addressing the less personal question though. But now I'm left with more questions...will wait to hear what you have to say about the Calvinists. I can see Grandfather Ames in your description of the Methodists...

"Methodist Church--breaks off from the Anglican Church in the 18th century. Founder is John Wesley who saw that the church wasn't doing anything for the poor and disenfranchised"

This morning Mal provided a link to the post civil war period, which contained relevant material -

"John Wesley was an ardent opponent of slavery. Many of the leaders of early American Methodism shared his hatred for this form of human bondage. As the nineteenth century progressed, it became apparent that tensions were deepening in Methodism over the slavery question. ...Contention over slavery would ultimately split Methodism into separate northern and southern churches.

The Civil War dealt an especially harsh blow to The Methodist Episcopal Church, South. Its membership fell to two-thirds its pre-war strength

The African American membership of The Methodist Episcopal Church, South, had declined significantly during and after the war. In 1870 its General Conference voted to transfer all of its remaining African American constituency to a new church. The Colored Methodist Episcopal Church (now called The Christian Methodist Episcopal Church) was the product of this decision."

I'm looking forward to what you have to say about Calvinism because when you say, "There's little doctrinal difference between Congregationalists, Presbyterians, and Methodists" - I get lost. Weren't Congregationalists Calvinists? Wasn't Predestination a big part of Calvinism? Mal, I tried to read Marilynne Robinson's essay and sort of glazed over. Maybe in the morning when my eyes are fully open. There was one line in there that did jump out at me though...haha, I don't remember the context, but it caught my attention.
"Calvin encouraged fathers to present their infants to the congregation at baptism, perhaps again to reinforce the meaningfulness of paternity."
Andy, I'm going to go reread your post now and see how I misunderstoon you on the subject of John Ames' anger. Sorry about that.

“you can know a thing to death and be for all purposes completely ignorant of it."

This is a statement that, for me also, has provoked a great deal of thought. Having been involved in and out of the world of books all my life, an instructor of literature, I have always been interested in the meaning and nuances of certain words and “knowing” is one of them. The play of the two words “know” and being “ignorant” invites me to dig deeper then an intellectual apprehension of knowing into the wisdom that knowing is supposed to give us. It seems to me that Rev. Ames, through the writing of this letter to his son is bringing about a wisdom he, himself does not seem to realize as being part of his own spiritual development. I wonder what it would be like if the Reverend wrote another book of reflections upon his own writings. I enjoy this activity myself and am often surprised at what more I “know” about myself, I did not recognize before. Does anyone tried this? A book like this triggers thought and when there are others to provoke more, it is a real treat for me. Bern

1. Total Depravity

"...our nature is not only destitute of all good, but is so fertile in all evils that it cannot remain inactive. Those who have called it concupiscence have used an expression not improper, if it were only added, which is far from being conceded by most persons, that everything in man, the understanding and will, the soul and body, is polluted and engrossed by this concupiscence; or, to express it more briefly, that man is of himself nothing else but concupiscence." (Institutes by John Calvin, Vol. I, Bk. II, Chap. 1, Para. 8; Allen translation.)

2. Unconditional Election

" John 3:36: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

3. Limited Atonement

"Christ atoned as a substitute not for all and every man, but for His elect people alone."

4. Irresistible Grace

"Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

5. The perserverance of the saints

"I Corinthians 15:58. Remember it? After the apostle had spoken much of the resurrection of Christ and our resurrection in Him, Paul declares, "Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.."

The Protestant religions we have mentioned here contain different degrees of the Five Points Calvin set forth, so there are doctrinal differences among them. There was an early split group of Methodists, for example, that preached exactly what Calvin said. They called themselves "Calvin Methodists",

The above information was taken from a series of essays in a book called The Five Points of Calvainism

More can be found in Institues of the Christian Religion by John Calvin

BERN, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. I do understand that people can walk through life by familiar things and not even see them. At one time I lived near Niagara Falls. After the first awed glimpse, I really didn't think about what was there and what it meant. The same was true when I lived near Washington, DC or anywhere else I've lived. . . . Or when I've read books in the past. I wasn't motivated to dig deep, unless I was in a siatuation like college or the one here in Books and Lit.

I do know that there came a point in my life when I stopped trying to identify with or find myself in everything I read. I had become so involved with "contemplation of the navel" that I'd forgotten to seek answers and revelations outside myself.

Perhaps the Reverend Ames is doing what Calvin says in the beginning of Chapter 1 of his Institutes of Christian Religion:
"Without knowledge of self there is no knowledge of God. Without knowledge of God there is no knowledge of self."
This leads me to wonder about "What God?" As we have discovered in reading and discussing the Durants' Story of Civilization there can be many interpretations of the same God, depending on the religion.

Mal

One of my ancestors was a self-proclaimed, unordained preacher. His education came from the Bible and the strict Methodist church he attended. When the spirit struck him, he'd take his Bible, get on his horse and go wherever someone would put him up and give him a place to preach in rural Maine. He was not alone in this endeavor. There were many self-styled, itinerant preachers in New England, and I suspect in other parts of this country.

Mal

ALF, I was snagged just by the posts before the formal "discussion" began! I was there reading all the time, not sure if I wanted to get into the book, or the discussion.

Joan, I don't know how long the list was at the library, but was advised the other day that they had the book "on order" and none of the branches had their copies yet. I fear that all the SN folk had ordered so many copies that even the libraries couldn't get their share! Good for us!

Let me just say that this is not a book to be "read" - - it is to be "savored".

I was also intrigued by these lines from John Ames:

"...you can know a thing to death and be for all purposes completely ignorant of it." "A man can know his father, or his son, and there might still be nothing between them but loyalty and love and mutual incomprehension."

Haven't we all seen examples of this 'mutual incomprehension' between members of a family, however loving they might be? And it is true that one may have a 'head knowledge' of something yet not really understand or comprehend it. I can recall a pastor saying that we need to get our 'knowledge' of God from our head into our heart. He was saying much the same thing.

Babi

Joan--Not to worry. I wasn't ducking the personal questions at all. I was simply trying to sort out some Protestants while my brain was active. I can do the personal stuff any time. My father was never disappointed in me, the opposite in fact. It's a long story but

to try to shorten it. When my older sister was a few months old, my father went on a fellowship around the world. He was gone a whole year, visiting the Far East and India in addition to all over Europe. When he returned to Baltimore where my mother and sister were staying with his parents, he found a todler who could walk and talk and who didn't recognize him at all.

When I was born some nine and a half years later, he announced "This one is mine," and he carefully observed all the stages he had missed. I am told that he even changed me from time to time and gave me baths. When I was sick at night, it was always Dad who got up with me.

I loved school, especially when I got to high school and college and he never had to push me. I was a girl, so I'm sure that he never had my entering the ministry in mind. (In those days there were no women ministers that we knew.)

And, perhaps the most important part--all the time I was growing up my father was a professor and a dean of a seminary. He DID take churches on an interim basis while they were looking for new ministers, but that didn't affect me. We didn't live in a parsonage and when my friends asked me what my father did, I always said that he was a teacher. I kept the minister part well hidden so as not to be a preacher's kid.

When we moved from Chicago to Maine (ninth grade) I could no longer hide the fact that Dad was a minister, but it no longer mattered for some reason.

So, long answer to a short question--No heavy expectations, relatively happy childhood, no parsonages. BUT when Dad was Dean of Bangor Theological Seminary, I also got to observe students who were also parish ministers. There are many small churches in Maine where upper lever students could "intern" while they were still in seminary. So I got to see the life from inside too.

Whew!

I'm not surprised that libraries have long waiting lists. The book is relatively new, only available in hardcover, well-reviewed, and the product of an author who was much praised for Housekeeping. Glad to hear that tomereader and Mal have books coming.

Maryal

"...you can know a thing to death and be for all purposes completely ignorant of it." "A man can know his father, or his son, and there might still be nothing between them but loyalty and love and mutual incomprehension."

I love that quote too. To me it means that while you can study something and study it and think you know it, the kind of knowledge you have is HEAD/MIND knowledge and not necessarily HEART knowledge which would be an understanding on the level of feeling with, being comfortable with even in sorrowful times.

I think the quote is especially applicable to relationships between people, but it can apply also to any subject of study. Let's say I spend years studying friendship. I read about it. I interview people who are close friends. I use my powers of observation to record how friends behave to each other. Let's also assume that I am so wrapped up in my study that I don't have time to have a friend myself.

Then later, after maybe years of study, I discover a true friend. As that relationship develops, I understand something about being in a friendship that I never could have found on my own.

And now I will fold my hands and be good. As if I ever did that!

Maryal

Bern, I'm going to follow the letter very closely in the coming weeks to see if the Rev. Ames finds wisdom he does not realize he possesses. Or are you saying that it is the act of writing this letter that begets wisdom? I love the man - because he is so unassuming, because he does not seem to realize that he IS an exceptionally good man. I like your idea of rereading stuff you've written and recognizing strengths you weren't aware you possessed.

I hope you will all reread some of the comments you yourselves have posted as this discussion progresses. You may be surprised at your wisdom. There is a new link in the heading - a record of Thought-provoking Quotes, Insights, Impressions. We'll try to keep it complete. If anyone's comments have been overlooked, just holler.

Mal, have you received your book yet? Pedln writes that her order is slow in coming too. After reading your post, I was going to ask whether you think that the three Reverends Ames were Calvinist Methodists? I've heard them referred to as Methodists and then here as Congregationalists. Methodists were Calvinists? Congregationalists were Calvinists? The only one who "feels" like a Calvinist to me, is John Ames' father. But I'm new at this. We'll hear more about the differences between the father and grandfather in the coming chapters. Perhaps it has nothing to do with religous beliefs.

It is an interesting exercise I think, to try to determine whom "our" John Ames resembles more - his own father, who judges everything and everyone - based on his own principles, expecting all to follow - OR his grandfather, who acts on his beliefs, not expecting anyone to follow.

"A man can know his father, or his son, and there might still be nothing between them but loyalty and love and mutual incomprehension."

I agree with all of your comments on the meaning. It seems that the "mutual incomprehension" existed between the Reverend Ames and his father - AND between his father and his grandfather. I'm interested in how Rev. Ames viewed his grandfather. Babi, your pastor's words - "we need to get our 'knowledge' of God from our head into our heart"- seem to apply to John Ames' father.

Ah good, Maryal. I hadn't stepped on any unresolved disappointments between you and your father. To the contrary, you seem to have been a mutual admiration society. "As if you've ever been good" - Indeed! You're like Rev. Ames - oblivious to your "goodness"!

"You can know a thing to death and be for all purposes completely ignorant of it." "A man can know his father, or his son, and there might still be nothing between them but loyalty and love and mutual incomprehension" - - - - -

I'm treading on unfamiliar waters here and should be wise enough to not comment on something I've haven't read, but . . . . Is that so bad? To share loyalty and love and mutual incomprehension? I won't hold fast to this, but right now I don't think it's unfortunate to know someone only through what they are willing to share with you. I liked Deems' explanation -- about friendship, and thought she explained well the difference between really knowing (or understanding) and being ignorant. Substitute "war" for "friendship" and you would end up with many different kinds of knowing.

My book is in town. DHL had it this morning and I thought, good, it'll come today. Now it's at the post office, so we shall see.

Joan, this link is great, the idea of selecting out from the many words we submit those thoughts which will capture what is meanngful to each and all of us at the same time. (I design my own online courses and one of the challenges is to assist students to capture their ideas that are unique and thought provoking.) I like too that the facilitators and readers often address something specific someone has entered. For example, your words addressed to my entry made me think back over Rev Ames discovery of the worth of a sermon he never got the opportunity to share because, in his eyes, his congregation would not benefit from it. His son, now will have the opportunity to benefit from his father's "wisdom,"

Can we ever benefit from the "wisdom" that has been imparted to us by a parent? I find that when this does finally occur one has passed middle age.

Joan, you are more than welcome to call me 'Judy'. I am just now catching up with this discussion. I will go back and read all the posts. I checked this book out of the local library and had just started to read it when my Dad was taken to the hospital. I stayed with him at nights and took the book with me and read it while he was sleeping. He died Monday and the funeral is today, but reading this book during that time, was very helpful to me. I kept a notepad at my side and copied many of the sentences from the book. I will catch up with the posts tonight, (I hope.)

Judy

Oh my, Judy, I'm so sorry to hear about your father. Thoughts and prayers are with you.

Oh dear Judy. Deepest condolences. You will be in all of our thoughts and prayers today. It is some consolation to know that this book has helped you in some way during your father's last days. The book - and the discussion of it - has made us all so much more aware of our own mortality, that of our parents and the relationships we have had with them.

Take your time coming back to us, but know that you will be welcomed here with open arms.

I agree with you, Bern - reading over what you have written, and then reading the others' comments - so often leads to deeper knowledge and understanding.

For example - Pedln's comment - "Is that so bad? To share loyalty and love and mutual incomprehension?" made me reflect over my relationship with my own father - now deceased. Deep loyalty and respect were always there. The "mutual incomprehension" - or was it "incomprehension" on my part? The love I probably didn't realize I felt - until after he was gone. So much here to think about. Thanks, Pedln! I hope your book arrives soon - but you're doing great without it!

I'm sorry to hear of the loss of your father, STIGLER. I can readily see how having "Gilead" on hand at such a time would be a blessing.

Does anyone remember when John Ames described an expression on his wife's face of half-sadness and half-anger? Then he saw the same expression on the face of his son over a broken crayon he couldn't fix. Isn't he saying here that his wife's reaction to 'broken' things that she couldn't 'fix' sadness and anger. That could cover so many things in the life of a pastor's wife.

Which brings me to another quote: "When the Lord says you must 'become as one of these littles ones', I take him to mean you must be stripped of all the accretions of smugness and pretense and triviality"

Surely a pastor, and a pastor's wife, must run into a lot of that in their little flock. I fear 'religious' people are all too often guilty of smugness, and pretense, and triviality. By 'religious' I mean preoccupation with the forms and outward semblances of faith.

Babi

Judy,

I'm sorry about your father. We had a death in the family this week, too, my beloved brother-in-law. I know the loss of a father is very hard.

Pamela

Judy--How sad I was to read of the death of your father. I lost mine some fifteen years ago and I still miss him. It's comforting though how much of him remains with me.

All--I'll be back tomorrow. Classes start tomorrow and I am right out straight trying to organize my mind to begin Genesis (one course) and the Odyssey (the other two courses). It is such a relief not to have to get up at 5:30 that it will take some getting used to again. I never get up at 5:30 unless I'm teaching.

Joan--Methodists are not Calvinists. Congregationalists trace roots back to Calvin, but the belief in predestination has gone by the wayside. I never heard anything about it growing up in the Congregational Church.

Ames is a Congregational minister, I think. The Methodist church is down the road--they are the great singers. His friend Broughton is a Presbyterian minister. Presbyterians also were Calvinists in origin.

Maryal

I went back to the first post and read through them. I have learned so much about this book and will have to go back and re-read it.

I am printing off postings that I particularly like to read again too.

As many mentioned, I too, was impressed with what a good, gentle man Rev. Ames is and doesn't even realize it.

He worries what to do with the boxes of all his sermons. I think that he feels that his life and all he thought about were wrapped up in these sermons.

I loved the story of his travels with his father to find his grandfather's grave. And the relationship between his father and his grandfather was very interesting indeed.

In my notebook, I have written quotes from the book; but I also had another page of words that I wanted to look up.

Judy

Thanks for your patience, Maryal. I'm thinking that the town of Gilead, Ohio is a very, very small town. Why so many denominations if all believe in basically the same thing. They all know and enjoy one another's company. Sing the same hymns, attend the same barn raisings - even helped together to rebuild the Baptist church after a fire.

This was a time of pioneering and new folks were coming in from all over. John Ames grandfather came from Maine, if I'm remembering correctly. Could the answer to the question on the numerous denominations simply be that the preachers who settled came with a "trade" - and set up a church as any tradesman would set up his business?

Which leads to one of my favorite and telling statements John Ames writes about his "profession" - his trade...
"My father left me a trade, which happened to be a vocation."
I really liked that. He must have been depressed all those years - mourning his lost wife and family. But he still managed to carry out his clerical duties. How did he do it?

Babi, I'm thinking of the question you asked about a cleric's wife..."she couldn't 'fix' sadness and anger" - Would it have been comforting to see her husband "fixing" things that she was not in a position to do? John Ames second wife and his mother too seem to not be at all intimidated by their husband's "calling" - they are both strong, opinionated women in their own right.

Judy, it's good to have you back with us. We were just posting at the same time...we both seem to be looking closely at this good man, how good he just doesn't seem to recognize. I imagine his goodness was obvious in his carefully prepared sermons.

"When the Lord says you must 'become as one of these littles ones...'"
Babi, do you see John Ames "stripped of all accretions of smugness, pretense, triviality?" I do.

The journey to Kansas in search of his grandfather's grave appears to be the defining event of his childhood. I'll have to say that mine was the loss of my mother when I was 7. Does everyone have one event that made more of an impact than anything else? I've often wondered about that.

My book came yesterday and my only regret is that I can't sit down for a day and read straight through. As many of you have said, what a good man he is, and he doesn't even know it. I would call him a humble man. And what a storyteller he is.

So much of his writing (and I'm only up to page 30 something) cames across as little vignettes, painting a very descriptive picture. Some of you have mentioned hunting for the grandfather's grave, a stark picture indeed. I was enchanted with the baptism of the kittens. How childlike, and how seriously he took his father's work and beliefs, and how much they were a part of his childhood. It reminded me of the small daughter of a Lutheran minister. Her mother found her and a little friend in Daddy's study, which was supposed to be off limits. "I told Susie to kiss the statue of Martin Luther because at her house I have to kiss the Virgin Mary," she said.

I love the gentleness and humor Ames shows. Are you surprised this is written by a woman? I keep thinking the author is Ames.

JOAN, yes, I do believe John Ames is a man stripped of trivialities and smugness. And I believe his wife is immensely proud of him and honors him for the good man he is.

It wasn't that she couldn't 'fix' sadness and anger; she was angry and saddened by the things she couldn't fix. And one of the things she couldn't fix was that this man she loved was so much older than she, and she wouldn't have him with her very long.

Babi

pedln--Good to hear that your book has arrived. I'm hoping that Mal will soon have hers. Your description of the book as composed of little vignettes was perfect. I often read just a few pages while I was in Florida. Then let it sink in as I thought about it. Then a few more pages later. To me this is indeed a book to be savored. I loved the story about the Lutheran minister's daughter and the statue of Martin Luther. Turnabout is fair play!

Babi--Even though Mrs. Ames doesn't get much of a "speaking role" in the novel (at least so far), she does leave quite an impression. I liked your description of her. She does seem to love Mr. Ames and is no doubt sorry that he won't be with her always. She also seems to me to be an excellent mother to the little son.

First day of classes went reasonably well, but I have SIXTY-SEVEN names to learn. A popular name (boys) 18 years ago was JORDAN I have three of them. The second most popular name is MATTHEW and number three is ROBERT. The girls' names are also returning to old favorites: I have Sarah and Joan and Margaret and Kate. So good not to have all those Shelbies and Brandies. Apologies to any who might have family members with those names--ooops.

Maryal

"My father left me a trade, which happened to be a vocation."

I’m not sure what is meant by the first part of this quote but I am sure Rev Ames understood that his calling, this legacy was a vocation. As with what the word means, he recognized his work of service as a “calling,” a choice he made deliberately and freely and from God. Very often we associate a “vocation” with some exalted, dangerous, and uncertain “journey.” Rev. Ames certainly revealed his was uncertain, but what I find remarkable is his description of the living of his vocation as so ordinary, lonely, and often frustrating. I won’t reveal it but it is the conclusion of this work that the reader discovers what Ames’ “vocation” really is and means. This is especially comforting for me, a Catholic nun, who began her religious life with a very idealistic and unrealistic notion of what a vocation implies. Now that I am around the same age as the Reverend, I can look back at what I have written over the years and still now as a life quite ordinary, busy, and often uncertain with the same sense of peace and fulfillment Ames reveals about himself.

bmcinnis--I read the quote about Ames' father leaving him a trade as a reference to the old custom of the son following in his father's trade be it shopkeeping or plumbing. One learns a trade by being around it, being apprenticed perhaps.

A vocation, as you point out, is a calling. I think the double meaning here is that the father left him a "trade"--in his case being a minister, but that he found a vocation. Ames is a witty man and he is playing with words.

Joan--I think it was you who mentioned earlier how very real and male the narrator sounds. For me, the mark of a very high level writer is this ability to write in the voice of the opposite gender--or about the opposite gender--with such convincing portrayal that the reader believes that the author is almost genderless.

I'v e known a number of ministers, both friends and students of my father, and Ames' voice rings very true for me. He is a clergyman at the end of a long life.

Maryal

Pedln, yes, those quiet little vignettes and descriptions paint memorable pictures that linger until they gather together into one breathtaking landscape. Sometimes you wonder where M. Robinson is going with the different images and references, but you just know that in her capable hands, they are going to be part of a whole. I like the way Michael Dirda put it - "a combination of truth and beauty." So you just enjoy, "savor" each vignette and let the author take care of the rest.

I'm watching John Ames' wife - taking practical steps to prepare for the inevitable...getting the boy used to being in the cemetery, for example. Reading books she's never read so she can educate him the way his father would have, had he lived. I really can't comprehend this "romance", Babi. What was the attraction for this "vital" young woman as the Reverend described her, for this "retired" gentle man. All I come up with is his "goodness" - but that doesn't seem enough to motivate her to marry him - to start a family with him. (But I do have confidence that M. Robinson will make this clearer by the end.) Then after she has mothered the child, she becomes saddened at the reality of the situation? That she can't "fix" the age difference and she can't "fix" the inevitability of the boy growing up fatherless. Surely she must have known all this prior to the pregnancy?

Pedln, yes, isn't it easy to forget that it is not the Rev. John Ames speaking? It helped some to learn that M. Robinson is herself a Congregationalist minister...but as Maryal just said, the author really has "the ability to write in the voice of the opposite gender."

Thinking of this ability reminds me of Tom Wolfe's portrayal of Charlotte Simmons, Maryal. Has Susan read it yet? Does she think Wolfe succeeded in portraying a young college girl?

Back in a moment...just smelled the coffee.

Pedln, you pointed out how "seriously he (young John Ames) took his father's trade" - in baptizing the kittens. You mention M. Robinson's humor here - let's be sure to note examples as we move along, it's all part of the package, I think. How many children role-play at baptizing?

Maryal, I found it interesting that John's brother, Edward underwent the same "apprenticeship" - but with a different result. His papa was quite a formidable presence, wasn't he? He didn't seem to tolerate anyone who deviated in the least from his beliefs...including his elder son's. There must have been some scenes at the dinner table in that house as they grew.

Bern, I think the "apprenticeship" - viewing life as a clergyman as an "occupation" is what John Ames means in the first part of the quote...I was interested in your comments on the "vocation" part. I've always envied those who have experienced a "calling" - when it is clear and answered, I would imagine peace and fulfillment are inevitable.

BMCINNIS wrote: what I find remarkable is his description of the living of his vocation as so ordinary, lonely, and often frustrating

Surely this must be true of all sincere clergymen, don't you think? People seem somethimes to forget ministers are human and enjoy company and humor as much as the next person. Remember how the young men telling each other stories and laughing, and how they stopped when they saw the old minister approach? And Ames spoke of how people so often change the subject when a pastor approaches, as tho' they can only speak of pious things around a pastor. Yet they come to his office with "with a lot of malice and dread and guilt, and so much loneliness where you wouldn't expect to find it either."

I think people have to set their ministers apart to some degree. They have to believe he has some superior wisdom and knowledge, so they can come to him with their troubles, their guilt and lonelines. You can't come to someone for advice unless you can perceive them as better or wiser than you are. And then how often is that advice or wisdom received and acted upon?

Yes, I would expect a good deal of frustration and loneliness in the life of a minister. Surely they would need a strong 'calling' to this work to feel it worthwhile. Yet I know those who also find in their work times of great meaning, satisfaction and joy.

Babi

"...Thank God for them all, of course and for that strange interval, which was most of my life, when I read out of lonliness and when bad company was much better than no company. You can love a bad book for its haplessness or pomposity or gall, if you have that starveling appetite for things human, which I devoutly hope you never will have."

What I don't understand here is why does he not want his son to have an appetite for things human? I don't understand that sentence. I would think that he'd want just that very thing for his son.

What is the stopping point for our next reading? I noticed today is the last day for discussion of through p 50 and wanted to go ahead and start on the next section. Thanks!

A good question, Andy. Don't you think it's sad that he's writing this letter to a son he will not see grow up? It would be such a wrenching experience, I think. I understood the comment to mean that he hoped his son would not grow up as lonely as he had been - I think it is the "starving" appetite for things human - that would lead him to choose bad company over no company at all.

Babi, I would like to explore the loneliness of the ministry you bring up. Will be back in a little while - a bit of excitement around here today. Meet our very latest family member, born at 5:55 this morning. He is 7 lbs,10oz - but so little! Look at the size of him compared to my hand! A very healthy little guy, comfortable in his skin - in this new world in which he finds himself.
Jonah Bryant Pearson
Pamela, let's go up to page 115 this week if that's okay with everyone. I hope that your book has arrived, Mal. We'll stop at the scene where the Reverend decides he feels like doing a little walzing...even if it is bad for his heart.

Back this evening...

What a lovely baby Jonah Bryant Pearson is, JOAN. Congratulations!

I'm hoping my book is in the mailbox down at the end of the long, hilly driveway. My daughter is going to look for me in a little while.

Mal

Contratulations Joan, is this No. 4? Jonah Bryant -- what a lovely little guy!

Joan, I haven't read enough to determine if John Ames' father was formidable. He had a lot to put up with -- was almost one of the "sandwhich" generation -- with his children, and his own father, who certainly was not the easiest person to live with. But how devastating it must have been for him to find that his eldest child, this gem who walked on water, whose parents and congregation made sacrifices for, has repudiated every thing his father stood far. And to have to face his congregation with this.

When the next section for reading is posted could someone please note the beginning and ending "event." I have it uploaded on a Palm and it only indicates there are two sections in the book.I have alread read it an will be able to locate these points. Thanks Bern

Good morning, Bern - You are up bright and early! With a Palm, no less! First of all , we are dealing with no chapter numbers and now no page numbers! Add that to the author's tendancy to write in circles, returning now and again to fill in details of certain events and we are faced with trying to answer questions and comment on situations which aren't fully described in the "reading for the week." This of course would all be easier if we were discussing the book as a whole, but we are confining ourselves to sections - some of us have not finished the entire book for various reasons.

This week we will TRY to discuss the material up to the "walzing "vignette - in which Rev. Ames decides to do some dancing (where, when did he learn - from second wife? (I forget, does she have a name?) It is a humorous scene...

Really must run - plan to return this morning with thoughts on Rev. Ames'loneliness. Is this self-imposed? Why does he chose celibacy if the life is so stressful? Is he really mourning for Louisa? He says he looks forward to death to be reunited with her. In any case, his solitude has produced a singular minister, I think. I'm thinking of Christ, who also chose the single life - quite unusual for young men of his time.

ps. Bern, will try to indicate the divisions in the heading for the coming weeks - by events.
pps. Does anyone have the words for "The Old Rugged Cross"? And any information about its source?

Later!
Joan

I'm glad you asked that question, ALF; I was wanting the answer to that one myself, and I think JOAN's answer was a good one. If it was the 'starveling' need he didn't want for his son, that makes sense.

Congratulations, Grandma Joan. Joan-Jonah,----was he named after you?

Babi

Here you go, JOAN

The Old Rugged Cross was written in Albion, Michigan. Or Pokagon, Michigan. Or Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin. All three towns claim to be the birthplace of this hymn.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

On a hill far away stood an old rugged cross, 
The emblem of suffering and shame; 
And I love that old cross where the dearest and best 
For a world of lost sinners was slain. 

Refrain 

So I’ll cherish the old rugged cross, 
Till my trophies at last I lay down; 
I will cling to the old rugged cross, 
And exchange it some day for a crown. 

O that old rugged cross, so despised by the world, 
Has a wondrous attraction for me; 
For the dear Lamb of God left His glory above 
To bear it to dark Calvary. 

Refrain 

In that old rugged cross, stained with blood so divine, 
A wondrous beauty I see, 
For ’twas on that old cross Jesus suffered and died, 
To pardon and sanctify me. 

Refrain 

To the old rugged cross I will ever be true; 
Its shame and reproach gladly bear; 
Then He’ll call me some day to my home far away, 
Where His glory forever I’ll share. 

Refrain

Joan, Congratulations on little Jonah! He is a doll.

I think Rev. Ames loneliness is pointed out as someone previously posted about his hearing the men laughing at some joke and how they stopped laughing and talking as he got near to them. He felt the 'otherness' imposed by people who saw him as a 'preacher' and not as a person who would enjoy a good joke.

Judy

Andy--It's the loneliness that Ames hopes his son will never have to experience, the starving for humans that he had assuaged only in his reading. He wants his little son to have many people in his life and not to be both set apart as Babi pointed out (because he was a minister) and unmarried.

I think that Ames is only aware of those long dark years now that he has a wife and son and plenty of companionship, by the way. It seems that he amused himself pretty well with his visits to Boughton, his baseball games, his books. Sometimes we don't realize that we were lonely until that loneliness has been filled with human presence.

Joan!--What a lovely little Jonah. He is just beautiful. And he is a quite respectable weight. Small in comparison to adults, yup, but they all are, even the large ones. He does look very comfortable in his skin!

One thing I'm keeping in mind is that we have a first-person narrator here. He observes and draws conclusions, but sometimes individuals are wrong. For example, he assumes that his wife is taking his son to the cemetery to get him accustomed to the place so that when Ames dies, it won't be full of strangeness. I'm thinking that there might be other reasons that she goes there.

Ames makes it clear (page 55 for those of you with books) that he could have married again after his first wife died, "when I was still young." Members of his congregation introduced him to "every niece and sister-in-law in a hundred miles." But he is glad that he waited for his wife to walk in the door of his church. "Now that I look back, it seems to me that in all that deep darkness a miracle was preparing."

I just love that. How many of us could get through dark days more easily if we could know that a miracle was preparing at the end of them.

Maryal

I was just reading over the “Quotes and Insights” section and this one struck me” “"That look I never in my life saw on any other face besides your mother's. It's a look of fierce pride, very passionate and stern. I'm always a little surprised to find my eyebrows unsinged after one of those looks.” What does this seem to say about the relationship Ames has had with his second wife? I feel like I could write “volumes” from just these few words.

I wish he had written more about his relationship with his first wife... more than that they had grown up together and were married at a time he describes himself as being young and vigorous, and even idealistic. What would it have been like if these two had grown old together?

Bern (Early Bird)

I have heard that the Chinese symbol for peace is a woman under a roof. And the symbol for discord is two women under a roof. Well, on page 84 we see an example of two men whose lives involve preaching patience and forbearance finding it unbearable to continue to live under the same roof together. And this is a father and a son. They were studiously correct in their pronouncements, calling each-other “Reverend”. When the father leaves there is a note on the kitchen table ending with “The Lord bless you and keep you.” Why is that?

I attributed it to two highly different philosophies and methods of preaching the Gospel.

What do you think?

Newvoyager

Newvoyager, I am curious? Can you contrast briefly (if possible) the differences between these two seemingly incompatable "philosophies and methods of preaching the Gospel."

Bern

Thanks for all the compliments on new grandson, though they are undeserved, as I had nothing to do with it, except marvel at the promises of new life in such a tiny bundle. He fits in the palms of my hands like a basketball.

Newvoyager, an interesting idea - the Chinese symbol for discord - two women under one roof. Like Bern, I'd like to hear more about this. Not to trivialize the idea - but we have been missing our beloved Irish Terrier who died last March and thinking it's time to find another - maybe two to keep one another company. My high school pal raises them and she told me that if I'm looking for two, not to get two females. They might be fine as puppies, but after a year or so, there would be "discord".

"Two different philosophies", methods of preaching...New voyager, I think you've hit it right on the mark and would like to examine these differences today. I'm thinking the differences between these two Reverends are HUGE. I'm thinking that the different philosophies still "singe eyebrows" and spark debate today! I'm wondering if you see the issue as I do or if I'm overstating it.

Grandfather Reverend Ames: Slavery (or whatever other "evil" in the world) is an abomination that requires the ULTIMATE INTERVENTION. Slavery is a greater evil than war, which requires sacrifice of lives to overcome evil.

Father Reverend Ames - There is never a justification for War, bloodshed, sacrifice. Peaceful solutions preferable and if not effective, prayer.

With whose philosophy does our Reverend Ames agree? It seems there is no middle ground between father and grandfather. Has our Reverend found one?

And finally, I'm thinking of the ultimate sacrifice of life on the "Old Rugged Cross". Thanks for the words, Babi - they seem to be saying that bloodshed was required for the salvation of the evil world. When are sacrifice and bloodshed justified?

Just a few afterthoughts on a parallel I sense between John Ames - and the mortal Christ - and then the floor is ALL yours -

Judy, Bern, Pedln, Maryal (probably missing some here) - you have all been commenting on John Ames' "otherness" and his desire to be considered "human." This made me think of Christ, who was also a lonely man while on earth. Do you suppose HE would have enjoyed a joke? Do you find any signs of humor in Him - in the Bible - in His parables maybe? Would He have felt the need for human companionship among His Apostles? Would He have liked to feel sometimes like "one of the boys"? (Would He have liked me to refer to Him as "him" with a lower-case "h" once in a while?)

Do you remember this comment - "Your mother has always struck me as someone with whom the Lord would have chosen to spend some part of His mortal time." p.30 How so? Why does he say this? I see her as a sad, sometimes angry woman - yet one determined to make the best of her present circumstances. Do you see her this way?

Rev. John also sees his boy as "serious, without much occasion to giggle..." - does he sound like a chip off the old block?

This website give a brief and interesting review of the book http://www.powells.com/review/2005_01_10

In the back of my mind, I was thinking that the style of Gilead was somehow familiar. On the review, there is mention of Amie Dillard whose essays I have read many. Same reflective and urgent tone that keeps you wanting to delve deeper into multiple levels and personal experiences.

Joan, you have summarized so well the differences between the philosophies of these two men. I believe It is as relevant today as then and provides for me a greater understandig of what is the source of so much violence and misguided "solutions" today. It can affect nations and persons in a conflict that even our "religions" cannot seem to solve.

To respond to one or two questions Joan raised:

IMO, sacrifice must be voluntary to be acceptable. To offer a sacrifice of something or someone else can never be justified. The soldier who throws himself on a grenade to save his buddies makes a justifiable sacrifice, however heartbreaking it might be.

Bloodshed, I fear, will continue to be necessary for the simple reason that we cannot stand by and let ourselves or others be sacrificed to greed, lust for power, or any of the other reasons one people attempts to destroy another.

I do not see the boys mother as a sad and angry woman, tho' some things do make her sad and angry. John Ames describes her as proud and passionate. She loves John, is proud of him, and passionate in her defense of him. She will not permit even him to speak ill of his life or his work.

As to Jesus, he was a man and enjoyed the company of friends. He is mentioned as dining with friends and/or sinners on numerous occasions. I cannot imagine that he would be welcomed with pleasure if he was a humorless, solemn person. He had an unquestionable charisma, and charisma is not something I have ever found in a person who could not laugh and smile.

A quote from 'John Ames':There are pleasures to be found where you would never look for them. That's a bit of fatherly wisdom, but it's also the Lord's truth, and a thing I know from my own long experience."

Babi

Babi writes, "He had an unquestionable charisma, and charisma is not something I have ever found in a person who could not laugh and smile. "

I agree. There are so many scenes with Jesus at a wedding, Jesus having a meal, Jesus stopping to let the children approach him, Jesus telling Zachias to come down from that tree (where he had gone to get a better look at Jesus) because he will be dining with him. Jesus calling the fisherman. Jesus washing the feet of his disciples. Scripture does not mention it, but I think Jesus must have laughed a good deal and he certainly attracted people.

As for the Grandfather Ames--He reminds me of John Brown, the crusading anti-slavery fellow who took over the arsenal at Harper's Ferry. G'father Ames is also an eccentric, giving away everything that isn't nailed down. He even gives away the blankets from his bed when the family is going through hard times. He is a zealot.

It seems natural to me that his son, the father of "our" John Ames would rebel and be a completely different kind of minister. Having seen the devastastion of the war, he cannot accept it. He sees the loss of all the young men. His father sees the war as necessary.

As for the parting note that he leaves, ending as newvoyager reminds us with "“The Lord bless you and keep you,” this seems completely in tune with his being a minister. It is part of a benediction "May the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace." The benediction is from Scripture. I don't see any doctrine in it.

Joan--Jonah is NOT a basketball. Do not shoot freethrows with him. Honestly! If you decide to get two Irish terriers, get a male and a female--and have them both altered of course. Kemper and Ben get along swimmingly. Unless one of them has a bone and the other doesn't.

Maryal

Bmcinnis: In regard to the differences in philosophy and method of preaching the gospel between John’s grandfather and his father ...

Joan Pearson and Deems have already described one distinct difference between them, their respective feelings about the Civil War. And John also mentioned that his grandfather was in Kansas. This was better known as “bleeding Kansas”, a no-holds-barred killing zone where pro-slavery and anti-slavery forces battled before the start of the Civil War. As someone also mentioned John Brown was active here too.

Since John mentioned that his grandfather preached a sermon with a gun tucked into his belt I believe that he saw himself as an instrument of a vengeful god. And what a wonderful justification for gunning down the enemy. Incidently, I have met quite a few chaplains while in the service, good men all, but none carried any kind of weapon.

John’s father, in contrast, was a man of peace and a such espoused a merciful God. This factor had to influence how they each preached the gospel. One might justify his grandfather’s attitude by the fact that he had probably witnessed the killing of his own men by the enemy. And to his grandfather’s credit he did return to his church after the war to minister to the widows and orphans of the men he knew in service.

We will see the impact of this difference in the perception of God’s nature later in the relationship between John and Jack Boughton.

Newvoyger

Ah yes, I remember the gun-toting minister. He reminds me even more of John Brown now. Perhaps he is more in tune with the Old Testament (Hebrew Bible) than he is with the New? But even Jesus showed anger when he overturned the tables of the moneychangers in the temple.

Zealots can certainly be dangerous which is why I get worried whenever someone believes that she/he absolutely knows what the will of God is in any given situation. So much harm has been done in the name of God.

Maryal

Indeed there are real philosophical differences between these two men, but I recall the scene where Edward having returned from Europe and refused to say grace at dinner. The Father's words and behavior here seems similar to the regidity and inflexibility of the grandfather. This seemed to set up a real questioning from Rev Ames that resulted in his own attitude toward religious convictions and human compassion.

Bern

So many good thoughts, this morning! At this point I'm wondering about Marilynne Robinson's intended theme for this work. Her message. We've mentioned anger and its power to destroy, we've mentioned the honor of one's father, even when there is "mutual incomprehension." Do you sense a broader theme now?

Bern, are you saying in so many words, that war, all war, but specifically the Civil War, was "a misguided solution to the slavery issue? I like your comparison to Amie Dillard's essays which compel one to "delve deeper into multiple levels" - As we move forward linearly, we return to earlier vignettes and events to find more understanding of their import than when first mentioned. I don't know about you - but I keep rereading certain passages - today to look more closely at Reverend Father Ames to see if I've misunderstood him the first go-round.

Newvoyager - I like the way you have expanded the two Reverends' views from Bern's "differences in philosophy and method of preaching the gospel" to the "vengeful versus the merciful God" - and then Maryal's observation - the God of the Old Testament and the Merciful God of the New.

Yes, I see Grandfather Ames as the fire and brimstone. literal OT preacher - a "zealot" as Maryal describes him - a fanatic. I'm wondering if he is so appalled at slavery that he will go to any lengths to break those chains - OR if he wants to PUNISH those who have enslaved them? He did know John Brown - and certainly approved of his methods as we see here.

It's Reverend Father Ames that I can't quite put on the other side of the equation - though I do see "our" Reverend as mericiful, forgiving...Not quite sure what to think of Father Ames. That trip to Kansas to find his father's burial place was key. Not only does young John learn more about his father -

"What a sweet strength I felt in him - I have rarely felt joy like that, and assurance."

but it was on this trek to Kansas, ("bleeding" Kansas!) that he ...(and we) learn what it was that made the father question the grandfather's fervor - and change his views forever. Maryal, you see him rebelling having seen "the devastation of the war, the loss of all the young men"- yes, I see that too, but he has also seen the face of war - the young Union Soldier left to die by his father because of some misguided idea that he was supposed to let the John Browners get away...It made no sense to the boy. He regretted and repented for not doing "something" that night - for the rest of his life. It was enough to make him a "pacifist"- and sit with the Quakers - (Quakers in this small town too!) - but I'm not sure if it softened his heart enough to forgive the shortcomings of his fellow man - his own son, Edward, for example.

Edward is of great interest to me. When he recited the entire Psalm 133 - "Behold how good and pleasant it is for brethren to dwell in unity"- brother John realized that his brother knew (and accepted) as much as he, John, did. He concluded that Edward was a good man and John passed no judgement on him - as his father had. In the early chapters, can't remember the context, I remember John writing - "There are many ways to live a good life."

I'd say I'm seeing the human side of Christ in John. I like him. I'd like to have John as my spiritual advisor. He'd get further with me...I don't respond well to criticism, even when it's constructive sometimes.

Babi - I will agree with you..."charisma is not something I have ever found in a person who could not laugh and smile." Thank you for that...and all of the other instances where Jesus showed his humanity. I sense that John Ames craved more interaction with others...more comfortable dinners and chat about things not related to religion. Along comes the young woman...who senses he needs someone - a wife and tells so. He describes her as serious, a good listener...and unschooled but willing to learn. Do you understand what he meant when he said of her:
"It was the first time in my life I knew what it was to love another human being." Does this mean that he feels something for his second wife he did not feel for Louisa? And have I missed something - the second wife's name??? If she hasn't been given a name, why do you suppose hers is the only one without a name?

Off for the day...as always, I look forward to hearing your illuminating observations!
Joan

Bmcinnis, thanks for the post of the review. I was amused at the reviewer's descriing the grandfather as a kleptomaniac for the lord!

The narrator says he discovered what it means to love when he met his second wife, but he also says he loved his first wife and others. Does this mean he realized for the first time the awesomeness, or the responsibility, etc. to love someone? I'm not really sure what he meant.

Pamela

Joan~First of all you bring up the relationship between John Ames Sr. and his older son, Edward, who showed great promise as a child. Somewhere our narrator says that his parents thought they had a young Samuel on their hands so they bought Edward books and all the equipment he needed to further his education. He finally goes to Europe to study and ends up a non-believer.

Samuel was raised in the temple from the time he was weaned. Remember the story, Hannah was barren. She prayed and promised to give the child back to God if only she could have a son. She finally has Samuel and she takes him to Eli. (Every year she visits the boy and brings him a new coat.) It is when he is a boy with Eli that Samuel hears the voice of God calling to him (vocation). Samuel thinks that it is Eli calling for him in the middle of the night. But Eli tells him he has not called. This happens three times. Finally Samuel answers as Elit had instucted him and God tells him that Eli's family is very guilty and that he will destroy them. After Eli dies Samuel becomes his successor and it is Samuel who anoints Saul King. When Saul proves unsatisfactory, Samuel is instructed to anoint David king.

So, to be raising a "young Samuel" is to be given a very important job--raise the child part way and give him back to God. If you know the story of Samuel, then Edward's decision that not only will he not be a minister but he has come to be an unbeliever is clearly a terrible blow to John Ames' father.

Must go read the Odyssey and Genesis. Later.

Maryal

“ the influenza epidemic rescuing “foolish young men from the consequences of their own ignorance and courage, that the Lord was gathering them before they could go off and commit murder against their brothers… a sign to the rest of us that the desire for war would bring the consequences of war…when we decide to hammer our plowshares into swords…in contempt of the will and the grace of God.”

Form me, this was a powerful sermon Ames never got the chance to give. Would Ames have believed that this sermon would be received any better today? Could he have been referring to war as an alternative at any time for those who profess that, with Christ, all others are our brothers (and sisters?) With this in mind what would Ames have thought about the conflict in Iraq or anywhere where taking of lives is an intended or unintended consequence of unresolved beliefs?

I welcome your resposes. Bern

BERN, I feel John Ames was wise not to give that particuar sermon. However true it might be, there were so many people in great pain from having lost a beloved child, together with all the hopes and dreams they had for him. It may well be that going off to war would have changed them so drastically and traumatically that those hopes and dreams could never have transpired anyway, BUT, show me the parent who would not prefer a living hope to hopelessness. They would have been, I believe, terribly angry and hurt, by this sermon.

Babi

I must go back and reread that section about the sermon dealing with the flu epidemic. It surprised me when I first read about it that John Ames would have it in his heart to write such a sermon. It seemed incongruous with the gentle loving man we had been seeing all along, that he would see travesty in the world as a sign from God.

Oh how you forget! I have a three-month old in my care who is having a bad morning (his first)...inconsolable. Finally I had to put him in his swing - set the timer for five minutes. If he was still crying I planned to go back to walking/rocking him. He sleeps! So I have a few minutes (finally) to slip in here and see what's on your minds...

Pamela - perhaps that IS what Rev. Ames intended in the statement about learning what it is to love another human being - he is an adult now - has been a lonely man for most of his years and suddenly there is another who wishes to be his wife. He is more aware now of the responsibility of loving someone. As a young man, that is not usually the case. I'm puzzling over his feelings for Louisa. In his memories, she is a child with braids and sunbonnet, skipping rope. It's been such a long time and yet he says he's looking forward to being restored with Louisa and Rebecca in death.

I've mentioned my mother died when I was seven - ten years later my father remarried. When my father died, he was buried next to my mother...but had made provisions for a plot on his other side for my stepmother. She has made other arrangements since then...not even in the same state. Says that she wants to leave him in peace with his "true love". This sounds so sad to me - but she really feels this way. I wonder what John's second wife would say about this?

Rebecca seems to come up more frequently in the story than Louisa - yet he has no real memory of her. I was touched to read that he had returned to Gilead before she died - that he held her in his arms, blessed her, felt her pulse and warmth with his hand on her little head. Reminded me of the kitten baptism years before. Somewhere I remember reading that for years he would address his sermons to the congregation...imagining that Rebecca was among them, listening. Perhaps he was imagining teaching her the same lessons he is addressing to his son in this journal. I can't find that passage, but seem to remember he used to do this until the day his second wife (what's-her-name?) came into the church. From then on he addressed his sermons to her...

Pedln, that was a powerful, anti-war sermon - I don't think John Ames ever really intended to give it...knowing that his congregation was made up of widows and orphans of those who gave their lives for what they considered a just cause - as Babi says. Babi...that's a thought - having experienced war, these sons may not have ever fulfilled parents' dreams. Makes you fear for our young men and women coming back from Iraq. I think he really did believe in his gentle heart that God viewed war and every loss of life associated with it - a travesty. Writing the sermon must have been his way of venting?

Bern, I'm surprised that he let the sermon sit in the attic all those years. Surely there would be opportunities - more wars, more travesties as he saw them in the eyes of God - to preach peaceful resolution to conflict. Yes, I do see a strong parallel with the conflict in Iraq...when peaceful negotiations do not alleviate terrorism and oppression, there are those who see armed intervention as the only solution. There are those who feel interference is never justified. I fear that things will always be this way.

Maryal, I had missed the reference to Samuel - in the description of Edward. And thanks for the background on Samuel. It explains even more why Father Ames was devasted to "lose" his son - he was supposed to be his gift back to God. Did it help that he had a second son - and that one became the gift - a minister in God's service?

I'm curious - what was Eli guily of? Was it Eli calling Samuel in the night - pretending he was God?

More later...baby is calling. He sounds better than before he went to sleep!

Is this also a reference to good son, bad son? the prodigal son?

Joan--Eli didn't do anything wrong. It was his reprehensible sons who so angered God. The priesthood simply couldn't pass to them. Eli wasn't tricking Samuel. The text makes it clear that God is calling Samuel:

"Now the boy Samuel was serving Yahweh in the presence of Eli; in those days it was rare for Yahweh to speak: visions were uncommon. One day, it happened that Eli was lying down in his room. His eyes were beginning to grow dim; he could no longer see. The lamp of God had not yet gone out, and Samuel was lying in Yahweh's sanctuary, where the ark of God was, when Yahweh called, 'Samuel! Samuel!' He answered, 'Here I am,' and, running to Eli, he said, 'Here I am, as you called me.' Elis siad, 'I did not call. Go back and lie down.'"

After the third time he hears the call and goes to Eli, Eli tells him to answer, " Speak, Yahweh; for your servant is listening."

Eli's only fault is in not correcting his sons when they curse God. When Eli died, an old man, he had been judge of Israel for 40 years. Samuel follows him as judge.

I think Ames didn't preach the sermon, one that he had written in righteous indignation against the war because, as others have pointed out, he saw the pain of loss in his congregation. Even as a young man he knew better than to preach it. I think it shows us that even when he firmly believed that the war was wrong, the feelings of the bereaved took precedence. He doesn't allow his own strong belief to harm his congregation. In this he is not like his grandfather who came to the pulpit armed and who was firmly convinced that he was right and that the people had to listen to him.

Andy-- I'd say that John Ames (Jack) Boughton, John Ames' namesake, is the prodigal son in this book. He's the one who has brought so much worry to his father, and now in the pages under consideration for this week, he has returned home.

I do like the fact that Ames' little son (we don't have his name either, do we Joan?) has a good friend, Tobias, with whom he plays.

Maryal

John and Louisa had been childhood friends. Perhaps he remembers her best as a child. Her time as his wife was sadly short.

The years alone, and the way John Ames filled them, has made him who he is. His night and dawn walks; his description of the beauties around him that still have power to startle him.

"It is all still new to me. I have lived my life on the prairie and a line of oak trees can still astonish me."

"Each morning I am like Adam waking up Eden, amazed at the cleverness of my hands and at the brilliance pouring into my mind through my eyes---old hands, old eyes, old mind, a very diminished Adam altogether, and still it is just remarkable.

Babi

Maryal, thanks for explaining Eli's guilt. Samuel certainly had a clear call when sent to study with Eli. Edward was sent away to study too - but heard no call. What would have happened had Father Ames never sent him to Europe? I wonder if he had stayed in Gilead if he would have assumed his father's "trade" - if not a clear cut "vocation"?

Andy - I've been thinking of your question since yesterday - "Good son, Bad son? Prodigal son?"

We actually have two sons who have turned out to be great disappointments to their fathers - Edward Ames and John Ames Boughton. Both seem to have squandered their "inheritance" Both are sons of ministers - their inheritance being the faith as practiced by their fathers.

The Biblical Prodigal returned to enjoy his father's wealth. He was welcomed back into the bosom of the family with open arms, completely forgiven, Not so by his resentful sibling.

Now to your question...First Edward - He returns, yes - but only for a brief visit. On his return he immediately lets his father know that he has not returned to the fold by refusing to offer grace. How does his sibling react to his return? Edward leaves young John with the very books that led him "astray", hoping the boy's eyes would open to the world. That didn't happen, but the visit had a great effect on John - made him a very different sort of minister than his father. He realizes that his brother knows all that he knows - that he is a good man - and that "there are many ways to live a good life." Many ways to minister to a congregation too - not just by his father's strict principles.

Babi - you bring us more evidence that this John Ames is in tune with nature...with man's nature too. His solitude has taught him much. He understands "change" - do you remember when he looks at the stand of elms and immediately remembers back when they were first planted and Louisa jumped rope by the young seedlings? I think you are right - most of his memories of Louisa are as a young child...

Back in minute - baby stirring...

Maryal, you see Jack Ames Boughton as the Prodigal. We'll learn more about him next week I hope - he is a mystery, isn't he? To me he is the most complex character in the book - even more so than the Reverend Ames. Why is John Ames so uneasy when he sees Jack playing ball with his precious boy? Is it jealousy, sadness that he will not be around to watch his boy grow up? I had another thought.

John Ames Boughton is John Ames' namesake. In a way, can we look at him as John Ames' spiritual "son" - his returned Prodigal? Admittedly John Ames does not welcome such a "son" home with open arms, does he? Perhaps he's thinking of Edward's attempts to influence him in his own youth when he "returned" - and he is concerned that his young son - Maryal, I've been assuming that the boy is also named "John Ames", like his father, his grandfather, his great grandfather - that somehow the returned "son" will be a bad influence on his gullible young "sibling"?

Many more thoughts on the return of the prodigal...but will save them for another time. Do we all have someone that comes to mind when we think of a prodigal returning to the family fold? I do. I feel Marilynne Robinson is speaking right to me.

Joan--Yes, I'm also assuming that John Ames' son is John, but maybe he's something more biblically appropriate like, for example, ISAAC who is Abraham's and Sarah's son in their very old age. I think Sarah was 90 when she bore him.

I love the story of the Prodigal son because it gives people all sorts of hope for the return of wandering young people, both sons and daughters. I also like to think about the reaction of the older son who stayed at home, worked hard, took care of the property and never had a feast thrown for HIM. Of course the whole story is a parable and is supposed to show us how God rejoices when a sinner returns to the fold, but still. . . .seems a little unfair if you look at it from a human perspective. (God's perspective is always a little hard for me to grasp, wonder why.)

If seven year old son is named for his father, then Jack Boughton, who is also named for John Ames, shares the same name. Interesting.

"You and Tobias are hopping around in the sprinkler. The sprinkler is a magnificent invention because it exposes raindrops to sunshine. That does occur in nature, but it is rare. . . . .Well, but you two are dancing around in your iridescent little downpour, whooping and stomping as sane people ought to do when they encounter a thing so miraculous as water." (63)

I love that passage for two reasons--it reminds me of all the fun my own two had on hot summer days when I turned on the sprinkler for them. I used to sit outside in the yard in shorts and let the sprinkler hit my feet and legs and watch them making up games. I also love it because it shows me how very sensitive John Ames is to the wonders of this world. He certainly delights in the ordinary. Every morning he feels like Adam come fresh to the world--and old decrepit Adam he admits with that wonderful understated humor of his.

Maryal

I am still not having a lot of fun reading this book. I am throughly enjoying the impressive comments here, but it seems that this book is not my cup of tea for the moment. I wonder if it is my time of life versus that of others? I did just lose a family member, so maybe I don't like thinking about these things so much right now. I also struggle with some of the biblical parables and hotly debate with God many of the lessons of the first five books of the Bible. I never could understand why God didn't accept Cain's offering, etc. So maybe I'm just not ready for this story? I will continue to read it, but I find I can handle it only in small doses as if I were taking medicine, LOL.

Pamela

I love the Bible because it is full of questions, paradoxes, uncertainties which challenge us to search more deeply into the “mind” of God. The mention of the Prodical son and Cain are just two examples. My sense is that for obvious reasons, God does not speak directly to us but rather invites and provokes us to do just what we are doing now: experience the uneasiness of probing more deeply on a personal and global level. Reading Gilead is just like that for me: an opportunity to “see” into the depth and richness of the "mind" of God, not seeking dogmatic and “right” answers but in a continual search with what we have, a limited but wonder- full mind of our own. For me it seems that more than anything, John Ames is a man of Faith in the biblical sense of the Word. Do you agree?? Here we go again.... Bern

Isaac. That's an interesting thought. The fact that both the wife's and the boy's names have been avoided must be significant - everyone else has names - even the cats! The boy as Isaac, the boy as sacrificial lamb...the boy as Christ? I had noted somewhere how frightened of the newborn baby John Ames was - used to sing "Go to the Dark Gethsemene" as a lullaby, without even realizing what he was singing - until wife asked him to sing something else. This would cast John in the role of the older Joseph, the wife as young Mary. There is SO MUCH room for such associations in these pages, don't you think?

Maryal, I like the story of the Prodigal Son for the same reasons you do. There are many references to Baptism - and water...once washed in the waters of Baptism, the baby becomes a child of God. Even though he strays, he is marked and will return. "There are many ways to live a good life." I keep thinking of these words when I think of Edward. Edward in his brother's eyes isn't really "lost", is he?

Will that be true of John Ames Boughton? Baptized by John Ames himself? (It is interesting that the boy and Jack Boughton have the same name - and did you notice Jack calling Rev. Ames, "Papa"?)

Yes, it would tough as a good, obedient brother to see the fuss made over the returning Prodigal. I have the same problem with those latecomers to the vineyard - getting paid the same as those who have sweated through the entire day. I'm wondering why I see such unfairness here, when there is so much unfairness I take for granted in this world... Bern, this book beckons to us to probe our personal attitudes, doesn't it - just as the Bible does. We don't get easy answers and solutions - but we sure get thinking about things.

I'll admit that I'm not having "fun" much of the time - though will admit there are light moments that border on fun. Here's a question for you, Pamela. What did the reviewers of the New York Times see in this book that prompted them to name it one of the top five best novels of 2004? I'd be interested in what you all have to say about this, but you in particular, Scamper!

I'm having trouble knowing what to do with some of the metaphors here - even after rereading them. The significance of the charred piece of bread his father gave to John Ames when he was a boy - his hopes to give the "same memory" to his own son? What did you think of that? The other was the firefly metaphor...I can't wrap my mind around this one either. Fire is another element often repeated here. Fire and water -
"Man is born to trouble as sparks fly upward."
Off for the day, need to hear how you are doing with the book so far. Oh, and I see on my desk one more note - another parallel I meant to include earlier somewhere, but will tack it on here. Did you notice the great similarity between the ballplaying - Edward playing ball on his return home with his excited younger brother - and then John Ames Boughton playing the same game with young John/"Isaac"? I think that means something, but need to give it more thought.

Good Friday, everyone!

Scamper--I'm sorry that the book seems like medicine to you. I just love reading it. We're all different, no mistake about that. It might help you to know that when I'm "down," I prefer tragedy to comedy. The comedy has to be very good to make me laugh! A friend once told me that life could be seen as a comedy or a tragedy. I think I've always seen it as a comedy. Maybe that's why I don't mind talking about death?

I just reread that paragraph and it made NO sense at all. I have a rough idea of what I meant, but I think I'll just leave it alone and try again another day.

Joan--I think the charred piece of bread that John Ames' father gave him was a private communion. Even in the midst of great loss, he shares the "bread of life." And of course John Ames wants to pass on a similar memory to his son since it has meant so much to him, BUT I don't think that specific memories each of us has about childhood is really transmittable. Think of the book you loved when you were small that one of your children completely rejected. Some experiences just can't be duplicated, but each generation manages to find its own.

I'm still thinking about the tone of this book. I don't find it sad or depressing but rather, I'm searching for a word, meditative perhaps or contemplative. Ames doesn't seem to be sad as he writes although I think he is definitely jealous of Jack Boughton playing ball with his son. It must be hard for a seventy-seven year old father to watch a man still in his prime doing something physical with his son that he once could do and now finds difficult.

All in all, though, Ames is doing pretty well. He is still preaching (his best friend Boughton has long since retired) and despite the heart condition seems to feel physically pretty well. And in one way he is lucky. Many people in their seventies are quite lonely. Ames seems to have gotten the loneliness over with in those long years between his two (happy) marriages. And here he is in old age enjoying having a young family.

Maryal

This novel makes me pause, consider and ruminate. I love to put a book down and actually think about not only what the author is saying but how it makes me feel. It is very contemplative indeed, Joan- that's such an apt word.

When I read the story, followed up by Maryal's comments on the sprinkler, I cried. This entire novel is a sprinkling- a dash of this, a thought about that. The Reverend is literally purging himself with his thoughts, dedicating and introducing his son to his life. This is the rite of passage- a baptism for a young man.
The Rev says that he's always loved t baptise people, though he sometimes wished there were "more shimmer and splash involved." I love that picture- a diffused sunlight, glimmering and glowing- on one's soul. Love it!
I think that Edward's chosing the 133rd Psalm was an act of brotherly love for the Reverend. Brethren is akin to brother and Psalm 133 ends with "For there the Lord commanded the blessing-
Life forevermore.!"

This is not an atheist speaking. NKJ Version says "Two similes are used by David to describe the joy of brethren literally sitting together in unity; aromatic anointing perfume and refreshing mountain dew." I'm telling you we could take just this one passage and speak forever on that thought.

Joan,

Thanks for your comments. We are different - I don't mind thinking about death - how can you avoid it! - but I prefer comedy when I experience tragedy, LOL.

Here is what the NY Times says about Gilead. I think most of you see the book in a similar light as to that which made the Times bump it up to the top of the list. I can see the value, but I guess it is just not the right point in my life to fully appreciate it.

O bloom only every 20 years would make, you would think, for anxious or vainglorious flowerings. But Marilynne Robinson, whose last (and first) novel, ''Housekeeping,'' appeared in 1981, seems to have the kind of sensibility that is sanguine about intermittence. It is a mind as religious as it is literary -- perhaps more religious than literary -- in which silence is itself a quality, and in which the space around words may be full of noises. A remarkable, deeply unfashionable book of essays, ''The Death of Adam'' (1998), in which Robinson passionately defended John Calvin and American Puritanism, among other topics, suggested that, far from suffering writer's block, Robinson was exploring thinker's flow: she was moving at her own speed, returning repeatedly to theological questions and using the essay to hold certain goods that, for one reason or another, had not yet found domicile in fictional form.

But here is a second novel, and it is no surprise to find that it is religious, somewhat essayistic and fiercely calm. ''Gilead'' is a beautiful work -- demanding, grave and lucid -- and is, if anything, more out of time than Robinson's book of essays, suffused as it is with a Protestant bareness that sometimes recalls George Herbert (who is alluded to several times, along with John Donne) and sometimes the American religious spirit that produced Congregationalism and 19th-century Transcendentalism and those bareback religious riders Emerson, Thoreau and Melville.

''Gilead'' is set in 1956 in the small town of Gilead, Iowa, and is narrated by a 76-year-old pastor named John Ames, who has recently been told he has angina pectoris and believes he is facing imminent death. In this terminal spirit, he decides to write a long letter to his 7-year-old son, the fruit of a recent marriage to a much younger woman. This novel is that letter, set down in the easy, discontinuous form of a diary, mixing long and short entries, reminiscences, moral advice and so on. (Robinson was perhaps influenced by the similar forms of the two most famous books narrated by clergymen, Francis Kilvert's diary and Georges Bernanos's novel ''The Diary of a Country Priest.'')

Robinson, as if relishing the imposition, has instantly made things hard for herself: the diary form that reports on daily and habitual occurrences tends to be relatively static; it is difficult to whip the donkey of dailiness into big, bucking, dramatic scenes. Those who, like this reader, feel that novels -- especially novels about clergymen -- are best when secular, comic and social, may need a few pages to get over the lack of these elements. In fact, ''Gilead'' does have a gentle sort of comedy -- though there is nothing here to match the amusing portraits in ''Housekeeping'' -- but it is certainly a pious, even perhaps a devotional work, and its characters move in a very small society.

The great danger of the clergyman in fiction is that his doctrinal belief will leak into the root system of the novel and turn argument into piety, drama into sermon. This is one of the reasons that, in the English tradition, from Henry Fielding to Barbara Pym, the local vicar is usually safely contained as hypocritical, absurd or possibly a bit dimwitted. Robinson's pastor is that most difficult narrator from a novelist's point of view, a truly good and virtuous man, and occasionally you may wish he possessed a bit more malice, avarice or lust -- or just an intriguing unreliability.

John Ames has cherished baptizing infants: ''That feeling of a baby's brow against the palm of your hand -- how I have loved this life.'' He loves the landscape too: ''I have lived my life on the prairie and a line of oak trees can still astonish me.'' When he informs us that he has written more than 2,000 sermons, and that he has written almost all of them ''in the deepest hope and conviction,'' the reader surely protests: ''Never in boredom or fatigue or sheer diligence?'' and perhaps thinks longingly of Yorick, the parson in ''Tristram Shandy'' who, at the bottom of his eloquent funeral eulogy, is seen to have written an improper ''Bravo!'' to himself, so secularly pleased is he with his own eloquence.

Pamela

The Reverend tells his young son in his diary :

" I do not remember grief and lonliness so much as I do peace and comfort-- grief, but never without comfort; lonliness, but never without peace. Almost never."

I could use a dose of that myself! Imagine being in harmony and peace with oneself and those around you, at all times. I would relish the contentment of quietude. The Reverend took to walking about during the nights, going to his church and praying. I wonder how much beseeching and litany I would have to have before finding the peace that the Rev. is talking about. Bless him! Remember the note his grandfather wrote?
No good has come, no evil is ended.
That is your peace.
Without vision the people perish.
The Lord bless you and keep you.

ALF, I can say 'AMEN' to that. What wonderful things it says about the soul that has learned to find comfort in the midst of grief, and peace in the midst of loneliness.

Pam and Joan both touched on scriptural passages that gave me trouble also. I finally arrived at conclusions that at least eased my mind.

On the rejection of Cain's offering, my reaction was the same as your, Pam. But on studying those scriptures, I realized that Abel appears to have brought his best to offer God. Cain however, appears to have taken no pains whatsoever in bringing his offering, but simply picked up some 'fruits of the ground'. It seems to me it was not the offering itself that was evaluated, but the attitude and intention of the young men making the offering.

The late workers in the vineyard getting the same as those who worked hard all day rubbed me the wrong way, too. Joan. But then I realized this story is an analogy, and the 'pay' the workers received was salvation. Therefore, those who come to God late in life receive the same 'pay' as those who came early. Salvation is salvation; there is no 'more' or 'less' to it.

Speaking of John Ames Boughton, one of the (to me) drollest lines in the book was this sample of Ames dry humor:

"I don't know how one boy could have caused so much disappointment without ever giving anyone any grounnds for hope."

Babi

Meditative, contemplative...How does meditating differ from praying? You can think over things, contemplate, meditate without bringing God into the equation. It seems that M.Robinson's John Ames always measures his feelings by his religious principles. His meditation seems to be prayer. Maryal, to me, reading this book amounts to praying. As Andy says, there is lots of room to ruminate in these chapters - I find the rumination more than not leads to prayerful meditation.

The thing I like most about John Ames is his ability to listen - to other people and to his own heart. When he meditates, or contemplates problems, he prefers to sit in the church - in the dark. He listens to God in the silence. Is that the difference between the two concepts? Meditation is an attempt to figure out things for oneself - prayer is listening to God for a solution. Knowing how to pray is a priceless gift, I think. How do you teach others - your children, your grandchildren to pray? Do kids pray? Praying is so much more than asking God for mercy, health wealth, isn't it? How do you teach a child to patiently figure out a solution based on what God is saying to him? It seems that in this diary/letter, that is what John Ames is teaching his boy.

Pamela, thank you so much for the information from the New York Times. I liked a number of points he/she made - "Silence itself is a quality" in this book. It is in this silence that John Ames finds the answers he seeks. "Fiercely calm" - was another description in the article I liked. Do you agree with the reviewer, Pamela - that "novels about clergymen are best when secular, comic and social"...the article goes on to say that these elements are lacking here, though there is a sort of "gentle comedy." Do you, like the reviewer, wish that John Ames possessed "a bit more malice, avarice or lust"? Do you think M. Robinson had a reason for portraying him as such a truly good man?

Babi, I agree with you - the fairness of those two scriptural passages can be understood if looked at as an analolgy to Salvation. God doesn't view "fairness" as we are used to measuring it. I liked your example of dry humor - that one boy caused much disappointment to his father, didn't he? As Edward did - as so many boys - and girls do. There's another quote I enjoyed...after contempalating a line from many of his sermons which I love, by the way: "There is an absolute disjunction between our Father's love and our deserving."
John Ames observes the other side of the coin...is he thinking of his own father in this, that his father never fully accepted, loved his own children beyond their 'deserving'? -
"Still when I see this same disjunction between human parents and children, it always irritates me a little."
Bern, it's difficult to say where to stop this week - on your Palm as the author keeps circling back. We'll try to discuss up to the point where John Ames expresses his wish that he could baptize John Ames Boughton all over again...there was something wrong the first go-round! Does he really think that explains the way the boy turned out?

See you in the morning...

To me, meditating encompasses a concentration and deep thought about a particular thing. I can even meditate on nothing! I attempt to throw my mind into neutral, throwing myself into oblivion. To when meditate one reflects ; maybe even speculates.
When one prays, one sincerely beseeches or invokes their God/supreme Being for a puprpose. To pray is a more devout, passionate and heartfelt action than meditation. From the mouth of my 5 yr. old granddaughter, Hope, "if you listen very, very quietly you can hear Jesus talking to you."

I agree with all these comments on praying and meditating. I have, though, come a point where I have stopped pondering over a distinction among the many ways of bringing God into my life through "direct address." Joan alludes to this in a larger context through her comment:

"to me, reading this book amounts to praying."

Each morning when I enter my office at the college, I glance over a photo of my neice, her husband and 5 children. What happens after that is usually a flood of emotion and remembering. With prayer, the same thing happens throughout my day. Everyone, every activity often brings forth the same kind of "prayer" experience. The only thing I have to do is not to take the routine for granted. Bern

Andy! When your granddaughter "sits very, very quietly" - she's, well, she's praying! Was she taught this? She's only five and she knows something that will get her through the tough times in her life. What a precious gift! Do you think it is unusual? Do you think there are many children who learn to pray - like this? Is knowing to pray something you have to learn - or does it just happen?

Bern, it sounds as if prayer is routine, almost an involuntary response to nature and your surroundings. It has become part of who you are. I see Reverend Ames like that too. Maybe that's what makes the New York Times book critic consider him too good - Do you think M. Robinson anticipated this response - purposely portrayed him this way, Christ-like?

In the next section, Ames dwells on his own weaknesses. He seems to be attempting to let his son know that he is/was human. Robinson keeps reminding us that this letter/diary is intended for the son to read when he is older...

Trail of the Lonesome Pine - have you ever read it? I've always liked the idea of reading what someone else likes to understand them better. (I think we get to know Mrs. Ames a bit more, but she remains mysterious.) This isn't the first time M. Robinson brings this up - both Rev. Ames and Rev. Boughton have read Jack Boughton's books in an attempt to figure out his mysterious nature. - What do YOU enjoy reading these days?

Joan! When HI uestioned Hope as to where she heard that or how she knew that Jesus was speaking to her, she shhhhhh'ed me and said "Listen,Ma, and you can hear him."
Beats me. I hope that she carries that with her for the rest of her life.

JOAN, I can't agree with that reviewer who thought John Ames should display a bit more 'malice, avarice, or lust'. Those seem totally out of keeping with his character. He has, with all humility, admitted to flaws and weaknesses, and said he did not want to give his son the impression that he was a saint. The reviewer reminds me of a rather bitter bumper sticker I saw the other day: "I believe in dragons, good men and other fairy tales." That's disturbing and sad.

I also found it sad that John Ames felt so diminished when John Ames Boughton showed up on his porch. He not only felt smaller, he felt older, and realized more sharply his wife's comparative youth. I ached when he wrote to his son, How I wish you could have know me in my strength."

Babi

Good to be back! My internet connection is through work and I think the IT guys must have been working on the system Sunday (they try to pick times which are not so inconvenient for us) and I miss coming here when I can't connect. The good news is that it probably won't happen again for a few weeks unless, of course, they didn't get something fixed. I don't know how the IT folks keep everything from crashing as well as they do what with all the students and the email attachments. Glad it's not my job.

Bern--I loved what you said about falling into the habit of prayer and meditation. Who was it that said to labor is to pray? I know it's the founder of one of the Catholic religious orders. Something along the lines of Labore est orare. My Latin, never good, is worse now. Anyway, whenever I am doing something repetitive (such as swimming which I try to get in three times a week) I sometimes attempt to commune with God. That sounds a little strange to me, but what I do is somewhere between prayer and meditation.

Andy--What a wonderful story about your little granddaughter, and how well she is named. HOPE. I love to see some of the old names coming back. I was getting very tired of all the Staceys and Traceys and Brandies and Christies.

I don't think that John Ames is "too good." He freely admits that he has weaknesses. I think he's just a quiet and meditative man. But he doesn't like getting old and he doesn't want to miss out on his son's growing up and he worries that Jack Boughton might be someone to warn his wife about. And he can't always sleep at night. I've known men like Ames in my life and they are very real. Perhaps the reviewer meant that the problem with Ames is that of all good characters--it's way easier to make evil characters interesting and dynamic.

Off to the YMCA for a swim. We had a little tiny dusting of snow last night and it is cold now in Maryland. I will not complain. We've gotten off easy this winter especially compared to other winters I remember. It is only January though so perhaps big storms are still to come.

Maryal

Another quote about one of the benefits of growing older (sometimes):

"One of the pleasures of these days is that I notice them all, minute by minute, and this was a fine one."

I wish I could say the same, but unfortunately todays 'days' tend to fall into a pattern just as much as my earlier 'days'. (Does that make sense?) Perhaps I'm just not old enough yet.

Babi

The Reverend wishes to preach on Genesis 21: 14-24. Provisions will be made for a child if unattended this story tells us. God has heard is another word play on the name of Ishmael, "God hears." That requires some conversation doesn't it? "That is how life goes," the author writes. "We send our children into the wilderness. Some of them on the day they were born, it seems, for all the help we can give them. Some of them seem to be a kind of wilderness unto themselves."
So many children nowadays are wild, disorderly and undisciplined. I fear for them, I really do as they fight their way through life without any assistance. Some don't want any help, others are crying for encouragement and my heart goes out to these kids. We have to be believers! We must presume that a higher being will protect our young when we can not, (or will not) whether it be due to illness, lack of experience, negligence or death. These kids need protection. Thank you Lord for helping them. My dad used to say "God will take care of the drunks and the little children, don't fear."

Good morning! It is so ccccold this morning here in the nation's capital - 14 degrees! Son on the way to Meanma's with little baby, is late. I'll bet he waited till the car was toasty warm...

One of my sons was a competitive swimmer, used to swim umteen laps every day. I asked him once if it wasn't boring, what he thought about when he was going back and forth. He said he never started out thinking of anything in particular - he just listened as he swam...and thoughts came to him.
I think quiet is key to prayer, to listening to inner thoughts and voices. Kids today seem to have so much noise in their lives, starting from infancy - all those battery-operated toys with flashing lights and tinny music, the kiddy videos, the tv programming. Reverend Ames wakes up at night to listen to and to examine his inner thoughts. He seeks dark and quiet places. I would think under water is a great place to examine such inner thoughts, Maryal.
*************************
What IS keeping the Reverend awake these nights? Maryal, I think that's part of it - "he doesn't like getting old and he doesn't want to miss out on his son's growing up and he worries that Jack Boughton might be someone to warn his wife about." Don't you find the Rev. Ames a curious blend - as he alternates between recounting the pleasures of growing old and regrets of his lost youth? He does not seem to have many regrets though.

From Andy - "I do not remember grief and lonliness so much as I do peace and comfort-- grief, but never without comfort; lonliness, but never without peace. Almost never."

From Babi: "One of the pleasures of these days is that I notice them all, minute by minute, and this was a fine one."

It seems that most of Rev. Ames' night fears - and day fears, center around the fact that he will not be around to protect his family. This seems to be his only regret in life. "How I wish you could have known me in my strength."
I ached reading that too, Babi. Somewhere else in these pages he speaks of uniting with his son - or was it with Rebecca - in the afterlife. Says he sees himself, sees everyone as a young adult in heaven. An interesting concept. I NEVER ever think of myself in bodily shape or form in the next - but rather a recognizable spirit of some sort. My mother who died when I was 7, I'll recognize her and she will know me even though the last she saw of me I was a little girl. Have you ever given this any thought?

Andy, your post is so important this morning...

"We send our children into the wilderness. Some of them on the day they were born, it seems, for all the help we can give them."

I'm thinking that this is what troubles the Reverend. Not so much that he is leaving his boy "in the wilderness", but that he lacks the faith of Abraham, that his son will be under God's protection. If he has that faith, will it really be necessary for him to warn his wife and son about the dangers of Jack Boughton? (I'm still trying to figure out how Jack Boughton will be a threat to Ames' family when he is not there to protect them.)

The New York Times article Pamela brought us seems to find fault with the characterization of Rev. Ames as such a good man - too good a man, perhaps. Your suggestion that it is easier to make evil characters interesting and dynamic makes sense, Maryal. Is the reviewer saying that Marilynne Robinson has succeeded against the odds in making a good person interesting? Somehow I don't feel that this reviewer was on the committee which named Gilead among the top five novels of 2004. I wish I was a fly on the wall during that meeting to hear their reasons. It seems an unlikely choice for this particular group to have made, don't you think?

John Ames Boughton (JAB) is very troubling to John Ames. There is something in the young mans past, of course, but that does not entirely explain John's attitude toward him. Generally, he seems prepared to be understanding, to forgive and excuse. I'm sure he has his reasons for his misgivings re. JAB, but so far he has not made it clear what they are.

I think there is some jealousy there. The recognition that JAB is his wife's age, and seeing how much his son enjoys playing with the younger man...he is imagining himself supplanted by JAB. Added to this is a fear of the possible influence over his family, after he is gone, of a man of questionable character.

Re. JAB: "I hope there's some special providence in his turning up just when I have so many other things to deal with, because he is a considerable disruption when peace would have been especially appreciated."

Babi

As an avid reader and literature instructor, my sense about characterization has been that the reader can trace the character’s development, chronological, mental, Faith etc as the events unfold in some kind of discernable sense. What is challenging for me is to see that for Rev what I am experiencing is through Ames’ “mind’s eye” thoughts that are often chaotic, contradictory and not progressive-- much like the stream of consciousness approach of some writers.

I to try to explain and “interpret” the Rev’s “Faith Journey” and have found the experience confusing and sometimes uncomfortable. For me, this is what Faith is for Ames and myself also: Faith as a belief in God’s presence that is always fresh and unfolding as every experience presents itself. There is an aspect of certainty about possessing Faith but being faithful seems to be so much like what Rev Ames recounts as his journey of faith unfolds for us.

Sorry if this sounds a bit pretentious but my mind works that way. Bern

Charles Dickens said that a boy's story is the best that is ever told. Maybe our author feels the same as we learn of the Reverend's youth.

Does anyone worry aabout Jack Boughton? Rev. Ames treats him very coldly, and seems to have trouble forgiving him for any past misdeeds, including the fathering of a child. I don't want to get into that. But Jack has been trouble ever since he was a small boy. Why? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that this kid has been seeking attention from day one. He has parents and brothers and sisters who always stick up for him. So what happened?Would he have been any different if his name had been Theodore Dwight Weld Boughton, as originally planned?

This is a boy who thought God bought the groceries. What else has confused him? Did he grow up thinking he was Rev. Ames' real son or that his parents gave him to the Reverend?

Having lost one child, I think Rev. Ames was afraid to get to close this namesake that was not his. He says as much, "I have never been able to warm to him, never." What a tragedy for them both, but especially for Jack.

Andy, thanks for bringing up Charles Dickens here - look to the boyhood to understand the man. Let's! We have two men in need of understanding: both the Rev. Ames AND his namesake. John Ames Boughton. Pedln, those are some interesting questions and suggestions. Why does Jack crave attention - everybody loves him? And another question - WHY does everyone love him? He's such a sneak and capable of so much mischief. Surely others besides Rev. Ames must know this?

I'm remembering something Maryal pointed out earlier about the first-person narrator. Always subjective, often mistaken. The narrator is the Rev. Ames. Perhaps he sees things through the prism of his own conscience. Perhaps what he sees is not the real Jack Boughton?

I agree, Babi, Jack Ames' callous attitude towards the girl and his baby daughter is "troubling"- inexplicable, really. But doesn't the Reverend seem to blame himself for the way the boy turned out? Pedln asks if the problem goes back to the baptism. The boy's name is John Ames Boughton - does he believe his father gave him to the Reverend? Or for that matter, that he's the Reverend's son? He does call him "Papa" on several occasions.

I'm wondering why the Reverend was so put out when asked to baptize Boughton's boy. Did it have anything to do with the fact that Boughton had baptized Rebecca? It is clear (or at least it is clear to Ames) that because his heart was not in the spirit of the baptism, the grace associated with it was not imparted to the boy. It was a seemingly generous gesture on Boughton's part.

I have to confess something here - I haven't read the final chapters of the book yet - on purpose. Am enjoying following M. Robinson in her circular path as she crafts the story, filling in details missed the first time she tells it. Maybe some of these questions will be answered before the story ends? (Don't tell if you've finished, okay?)

Babi, I'm not sure why Rev. Ames has such misgivings about Jack Boughton's designs on his family once he's gone either. But worrying about this seems to be what is keeping him up nights. His last days should be spent peacefully tying up lose ends, making plans, writing to his young son, but instead he wrestles nightly with the tormenting vision of Jack taking advantage of his wife and child.

We really don't know too much about his wife, do we? Not even her name... We don't know where she came from, the cause of her sorrowful past, why the church ladies are stand-offish towards her - except that she is uneducated and her grammar is poor. She is younger than Jack...and Rev. Ames notes several times that she won't look at Jack, "not even once" - Taken all together, doesn't she sound like the young girl who was mother to Jack's child all those years ago?

Whatever the reason, we do know Rev. Ames fears leaving his son unprotected - in the wilderness, so to speak. He realizes this fear indicates a lack of faith - in the God of Abraham and Isaac. His faith is being tested. Will we all be tested one way or another before our time is up? I do believe we will - even the best of us. Maybe that's what the message is here. Maybe this is why M. Robinson has painted a man we all consider almost "too good." - Bern, I think that you've come up with something important in your attempt to understand Rev. Ames, to trace his character development. His Faith, his belief in God's presence has been the mainstay throughout his life - and yet it is being tested now at the end as he examines his own conscience, behaviour, attitude towards this one disturbing boy.

There is much in these pages on the young John Ames. Shall we look to the boy for the man he was to become - à la Dickens? What was he like as a boy? As a young man? Had Louisa - and Rebecca lived, would he be the same "good" man?

I'm still waiting for my library copy of Housekeeping - am determined to read it after having read Gilead. But I DID get the 1936 copy of Trail of the Lonesome Pine - am about 100 pages into it - hope to finish tonight. Will just say - it is an EYEOPENER. More about it tomorrow.
Joan

I must confess that I am as captivated by our group’s sharing as I am reading the book for the second time from the perspective of knowing how it ends.

In my early days as a student of literature, we were exposed to several theories of literary criticism for which I have some remembrance. As a student, we were students of the New Critics, whose theory was a clear and intense reading and interpretation of the text itself and all its implications. Now I am coming to enjoy this approach in which we all become collaborators in enriching the creative intent of the author herself. Through our responses, we are, in fact, creators of a “new” novel that could never be written down satisfactorily, except in our own minds eye. What a great way to approach literature! Bern

Bern- that is the most poignant, descriptive sentence regarding sharing of literature that I've ever read on SeniorNet. We are creators of a new novel, written in our own mind's eye. Oh I just love that.

I ordered this book nearly a month ago from one of Amazon's suppliers. It never arrived. Now I'm trying to get my money back.

Having read all the posts since before this discussion officially began, I am wondering exactly what there is about this book that makes some people think it is so special and good.

Mal

This is only my opinion but it is the essence, the core, that makes this such a good book. An example is: "The moon looks wonderful in this warm evening light, just as a candle flame looks beauutiful in the light of morning. Light within light. It seems like a metaphor for the human soul, the singular light within the great general light of existence. Or it seems like poetry within language. Perhaps wisdom within experience. Or marriage within friendship and love....."

It is that wonderful cadence that lends to imaginative pondering that makes you want to embrace this book.

Joan, you have certainly added a new wrinkle -- is Ames' wife the mother of Jack's child of years ago? Her speech reflects a lack of education "it don't matter," and Ames tells us more than once how she appeared so sad, and he thouht she'd had a hard life. Would she keep such a thing from her husband, or is it more likely he would not want his son to know. She seems to feel hesitant about joining others, as though she weren't good enough. And then there is Jack, calling Ames' son 'little brother.' His? or his daughter's?

Regarding Jack's baptism. I think he was happy enough to do it when first asked. It was the name change that understandably threw him for a loop. The was the father Boughton with tearings on his face, and Ames thinking, "this is NOT my child," when he had never felt that way before.

"When you encounter another person, when you have dealing with anyone at all, it is as if a question is being put to you. What is the Lord asking of me in this moment, in this situation?"

There have been so many moments in my life when I have thought that very thing-- There must be a reason that our paths have crossed. How will either of us benefit? Some call it divine intervention, some "fatalism." I think of it merely as an accommodation. Do we all leave a piece of ourselves behind and take a part of others away with us?

The Rev says "You are freed to act by your own light. You are freed at the same time of the impulse to hate or resent that person. He would probably laugh at the the thought that the lord sent him to you for your benefit (and his) but that is the perfection of the disguise, his own ignorance of it." He is speaking as if you met up with antagonism or insult but couldn't it be true of anyone we meet?

Another quote that brings up recognition in me:

"...a pity that was far too deep to have any particular object."

I have felt that; that all-encompassing, wrenching pity that can't really be explained by the incident that triggered it. It's as though you stepped to the edge of what you thought was a small gully and found a chasm at your feet.

Babi

a quote that speaks to me is....

"I know more than I know and must learn it from myself."

I have never been a deeply religious person; but since the death of my Dad, I feel his presence near me and am comforted.

The day of the funeral, I was thinking that I would never see him again and then realized that I would see him when I looked into my niece's eyes or my brother's or even in the mirror.

Judy

Judy, this quote: ""I know more than I know and must learn it from myself." has provoked a couple of questions for me also.

Could this statement be a good definition of Faith? Could "learning it from myself" confirm the presence of God reflected within ourselves too?

Mal, sorry you didn't ever get your hands on the book. I've never heard of Amazon falling down on the job like that! Maybe you can get it in from your library when the attention in it dies down. You ask a question much like the one we've been pondering - why did the New York Times Book Review name this unlikely candidate among the top five novels of 2004? From the individual quotes and comments you see to your question yesterday, (and read these comments and insights(), I'm going to guess that the reviewers at the Times had much the same reaction we are having. The book speaks to each reader in a very personal way. I think we are all learning something about ourselves. Not only that - but there is an affirmation - an understanding of what we consider to be our own greatest weaknesses. You come out of the experience thinking "I'm OK" and "God loves me" as I am. (Judy, what a beautiful post. I understand what you are saying.)

What I responding to is the positive, cumulative experience - and have concluded that this is a book to be treasured, read and reread.

Ames, in his last days is taking some liberties with the Commandments, isn't he? - Arranging, rearranging them in order of importance. I'm really interested in hearing what you think of this...

"Honor Thy Father and Mother - according to Ames, this is more important than "Thou Shalt not kill."
Somewhere in these pages, he concludes that it is easier for the parent to love the child - unconditionally. To a child it is more difficult to love, to honor a parent - because a parent is "mysterious", a "stranger" even.

"Thou shall not covet thy neighbor's wife/goods." Ames: Such covetise is 'inevitable'. (Have you ever seen this form of "covetousness" anywhere before?)
He seems to be admitting that he has coveted Boughton's happy home and family. Is it this covetise that prompted Boughton to "give" Jack to Ames, symbolically by asking him to christen the boy with his own name? Is it because Ames has coveted the family that he does not accept this gesture?
Ames seems to me to be a Beatitude Christian. Observing the Ten Commandments literally seems to be too rigid for him. What would his principled, doctrinarian father think of such thinking?

Bern, I'm still pondering something you said yesterday...

"Through our responses, we are, in fact, creators of a “new” novel that could never be written down satisfactorily, except in our own minds eye. What a great way to approach literature!"

Is what we are doing a good thing? Are we taking too many liberties with the author's story? By piecing together that which the author allows us to know - and reaching our own conclusions, it seems she intends for us to think about the possibilities. She seems to be encouraging us to "create" the novel she is writing. As long as we are quick to amend our preconceptions as soon as she reveals more, I think we are justified in this approach - she states somewhat defensively...

I had intended to post what I found in reading the book that Mrs. Ames loves, The Trail of the Lonesome Pine - and the book that Rev. Ames is relieved to read. But my baby houseguest is finicky today - and I'm not accomplishing anything at all on my To Do list. It will wait for tomorrow. Have any of you ever read this book?

I read this book about 50 years ago! So, I don't remember too much about it except that it was about a preacher in the Ozarks.

There is an old black and white movie based (loosely) on the book and it stars John Wayne. It is shown sometimes on the old movie channels.

Judy

I was interested in the Bible's attitude toward the meaning of "covet" in these last two commandments and I found this on the internet. Not sure if it fits in to Rev Ames' comments???

"Covetousness is a very grave sin; indeed, so heinous is it that the Scriptures class it among the very gravest and grossest crimes (Eph 5:3). In Col 3:5 it is "idolatry," while in 1Co 6:10 it is set forth as excluding a man from heaven. Its heinousness, doubtless, is accounted for by its being in a very real sense the root of so many other forms of sin, e.g. departure from the faith (1Ti 6:9,10); lying (2Ki 5:22-25); theft (Jos 7:21); domestic trouble (Pr 15:27); murder (Eze 22:12); indeed, it leads to "many foolish and hurtful lusts" (1Ti 6:9). Covetousness has always been a very serious menace to mankind, whether in the Old Testament or New Testament period. It was one of the first sins that broke out after Israel had entered into the promised land (Achan, Jos 7); and also in the early Christian church immediately after its founding (Ananias and Sapphira, Ac 5); hence, so many warnings against it. A careful reading of the Old Testament will reveal the fact that a very great part of the Jewish law--such as its enactments and regulations regarding duties toward the poor, toward servants; concerning gleaning, usury, pledges, gold and silver taken during war--was introduced and intended to counteract the spirit of covetousness

Dear Friends,
The second half of NewVoyager's thoughtful post #197 inadvertantly reveals the book's ending. If you haven't finished, don't read the post until you do. While there are important questions posed therein, some of us have not gone beyond this week's schedule found in the heading.

If you have finished the book, please don't address the questions raised in this post until next week, okay? Thanks so much!

The post will be moved up for discussion next week.

I would like to share with you an email I just received.

"Dear Cousins and Friends,
Just wanted you to know about our mother's happy news. She had her inauguration into heaven on January 20. Her prayers were answered.

Rejoice with us!"

Mrs. B was 101, the daughter of a minister (Missouri Synod Lutheran) and the mother-in-law of a minister (MSL) Her husband died in 1963. She was mentally alert, in a nursing home for several years, evacuated during Hurricane Charlie. She has been ready and has long prayed for this journey to her final home. I know I will be thinking about her as I read the final pages of Rev. Ames letter in Gilead.

What an interesting email and at 101 she must have had a full, happy life.

Thanks for sharing that.

Judy

Ah Pedln, to be so ready when my time comes. The dear lady lived a long happy life with time to amend and tie up all the loose ends. I imagine the Reverend Ames will be likewise prepared - if only he can make right the one thing preying on his conscience - his outstanding regret - his relationship, or lack of one with his namesake, John Ames Boughton.

Judy - you read Trail of the Lonesome Pine 50 years ago? The title sounds so familiar, and yet I don't ever remember reading it. Maybe it's the John Wayne film that rings a bell. Thanks for that. I intend to hunt down that movie. I LOVE the book! It's a lovely, snowy day here - perfect for reading. I've read nearly 300 pages of Lonesome Pine and hope to finish this afternoon.

The story is set in the Lonesome Cove of the Cumberland Gapin the Appalachias - a scantily populated outpost that time has forgotten - much like Gilead. And yes, there is a minister, just as you remembered. Listen to this description of the Red Fox -

"...this old man with his dual face, who preached the Word on Sundays and on other days was a walking arsenal; who dreamed dreams and had visions and slipped throuugh the hills in his mysterious moccasins on errands of mercy or chasing men from vanity, personal enmity or for fun and still appeared sane - he was a type that confounded. No wonder for these reasons and as a tribute to his infernal shrewdness he was known far and wide as the Red Fox of the Mountains."

Sounds like Marilynne Robinson had him in mind when she portrayed Grandfather John Ames, doesn't it? - The central character, probably acted by John Wayne - was named JACK Hale. He's considerably older than the young uneducated June Tolliver from the Gap - who falls unabashedly in love with him - announces to all that she will marry him some day - "follow him anywhar." Tonight we'll see if that happens - she is being wooed by a young man her own age at page 249. Stay tuned...

Good heavens, Bern, the Reverend Ames was certainly familiar with Biblical teaching on covetouseness - and yet he concludes that a.) he is guilty of this sin, and b.) that this sin is "inevitable". I'm going to go back and look at the context right now. Perhaps he is telling his son that sin, (all sin), is inevitable for weak mortals, but can be overcome and then forgiven. Is he trying to tell his son that he himself is human, as all men, and fails as they fall, repents and is forgiven? Or - how did you read his comments on the "inevitable" covetise? Is he saying outright that there are some sins that cannot be avoided by man? Is he justifying his covetise?

The term fascinates me. I've been trying to find its origin...I see Chaucer using it in a poem, Thomas More in the 16th century. But it sounds so - French, doesn't it? Here's the passage on "covetise" - page 134 -

"I believe the sin of covetise is that pang of resentment you may feel when even the people you love best have what you want and don't have. ...there is nothing that makes a person's fallenness more undeniable than covetise....I have never really succeeded in obeying that Commandment, Thou shalt not covet. I avoided the experience of disobeying by keeping to myself a good deal. I am sure I would have labored in my vocation more effectively if I had simply accepted covetise in myself as something inevitable, as Paul seems to do."

..."IF I had simply accepted covetise in myself as something inevitable."
Hmmm, it pays to go back and reread, doesn't it?

I have have been following the discussion of "Gilead" although I have not participated. I received my copy in the mail yesterday and will begin reading it tonight.

Those of you reading “Trail of the Lonesome Pine” may want to check out the websites below. My husband and I visited Big Stone Gap, VA last summer for a weekend and saw the outdoor drama “Trail of the Lonesome Pine” It is performed by local residents and is very well done. Big Stone Gap is in the extreme southwest part of Virginia and is a very interesting area. The Cumberland Gap is just a short drive away. It is well worth the trip.

http://www.trailofthelonesomepine.org.

http://www.bigstonegap.org

Big Stone Gap has a rich culture and heritage. The home of THE TRAIL OF THE LONESOME PINE, the official state outdoor drama of Virginia, The Harry Meador Coal Museum, the Southwest Virginia Museum, as well as many parks, historic sites, and other attractions.

Historic June Tolliver House and Craft Shop

June Tolliver House - The heroine of "The Trail of the Lonesome Pine" actually lived in this house while she attended school in "the Gap." See the historic 19th century furnishings of the parlor, June's bedroom, and the John Fox, Jr. Memorial room. Next door to the Trail of the Lonesome Pine Playhouse.

Joan, I had to reflect on what I wrote…

"Through our responses, we are, in fact, creators of a “new” novel that could never be written down satisfactorily, except in our own minds eye. What a great way to approach literature!" I and some critics too maintain that once a work reaches readers, it is no longer the “property” of the author, rather through reflection and dialogue it becomes a kind of collective “new” and continuing work. That is what makes literature endure. Some authors say they write only for themselves. I don’t believe that. “What we are doing” seems just right to me.

Joan, I think you had suggested the possibility of our reading “Runaway,” short stories by Alice Munro. I just completed this, the first story. Wow! From my perspective her writing is so muted, so restrained, so powerful, and in the context of maddening “ordinariness”, I found myself inadvertently holding my breath by the time the story ended.

IMO, that is what literature should do; leave the hands of the author and become the heart and soul of the reader. I will be looking forward to having you with us in Runaway, Bern.

And here I thought "Trail of the Lonesome Pine" was set in Kentucky. I sometimes confuse it in my thoughts with "The Little Shepherd of Kingdom Come", set in Kentucky during the Civil War. Kentucky has a 'Kingdom Come Park', which I imagine would be much like the 'Lonesome Pine Park'. They are both books our grandparents would have read.

Some nostalgic quotes from John Ames:

From when the young men were putting up an antenna on the roof: "The young men are terribly interested in these things. It makes them happy to do a kindness so perilous and exotic in nature. I remember, I remember."

And this one about the church ladies bringing food made me smile: "There was even a bean salad, which to me looked distinctly Presbyterian, so anxiety had overspilled its denominational vessel."

Babi

What a nice surprise this morning - Jayfay, Welcome! You have been "one of us" all along and bring us first handhand information on The Trail of the Lonesome Pine - right here in Virginia. - Babi, it is no wonder you thought the story was set in Kentucky it is so close to the border. Kentuckians wander across on many occasions in the story...

I am trying to contain my enthusiasm for this book - as it is NOT the one under discussion here. M.Robinson mentions it only in passing as the book that Mrs. Ames loves, the book that Rev. Ames reads and is comforted by - because the young girl chooses the older man in the end...

But oh there is so much here that adds to the enjoyment - and understanding of the story M.R. has written. Please bear with me, there is something that came to me after finishing Lonesome Pine last night - a direct parallel between the two stories, Gilead and Lonesome Pine. It ties into yesterday's discussion on covetise and how John Ames battled with this very serious transgression as Bern detailed for us. It's still in fragile thought process and I really, really want to share it with you.

ps. Jayfay, (thankyouthankyouthankyou! We're going this summer - Bruce is interested, will read the book.) - is the "Lonesome Pine" still standing out in Lonesome Cove do you know by any chance?

Right back,
Joan

Lonesome Cove and Gilead both share a strong sense of place - and of history. The authors of each draw on small details, flora and fauna, the topography of the land and the history of the previous inhabitants becomes an integral part of each story.

Lonesome Cove and the nearby Gap were once part of the coal/iron boom - All such enterprise fails by the end of the story. All of those who have flooded into the area move away, including the heroine and her own people. The only ones left are some of the oldsters and the one "lonely" man, Jack Hale. Why does he stay? What happens to his hopes for the future? You get the feeling that Marilynne Robinson asked the same question. (Jack feels guilty about what he has done in transforming the young June Tolliver into a lady - good enough to be his wife.)

Gilead - a small town, once the center of pioneer activity, abolition - religous fervor. Now the young have left the town behind, the churches are near empty - divisions persist. It is a nearly deserted town in the middle of nowhere, like Lonesome Cove and the Cumberland Gap.

But the similarities between the two are much stronger than this. We have read of the 50 lonely years John Ames has spent between the death of his first wife and his second marriage. The question has come up, again and again...what were the reasons John Ames led such a quiet, admittedly lonely life? If so lonely, why did he wait until he was near seventy years old to take a wife?

Here's what occured to me last night after rereading the passage in which John Ames considers the sin of covetise:

"I have never really succeeded in obeying that Commandment, Thou shalt not covet. I avoided the experience of disobeying by keeping to myself a good deal."

That's the reason John Ames stayed to himself and led the lonely life he did. He found himself wanting so bad what Boughton and others had - that he stayed to himself like that old LONESOME PINE out in Lonesome Cove - and time forgot him. What really hit me - this avoidance is EXACTLY what I do, what I'm doing right now as a matter of fact. I'm avoiding someone (or something) who makes me want what they have. It is much more extreme with John Ames. Did the "gift" of Jack Ames Boughton at his baptism strike the Reverend in his weakness, in his covetise? He wanted everything that Boughton had - the rosy wife, the eight beautiful children. He knew that Jack was not his child, the baby was something else that Boughton had that he did not.

Actually I can't fault this poor old "lonesome pine" - how else could he have avoided the terrible sin of covetousness - except to avoid all near occasions of sin? What do you think he could have, should have done differently?

Babi, I just love the quotes that you have noted...the "Presbyterian bean salad" is another example of how the citizens of Gilead are identified by their religious differences. I hope we get into this division before we conclude this discussion...

Andy, when I admitted that I was guilty of the same sin of covetousness as Rev. Ames last night...I felt the message had gone "out of the hands of the author" right into the heart and soul of this reader. The author has no idea where her story is leading me.

On further reflection, Bern, after our collective reflection and discussion here, M. Robinson's story does in fact become "a kind of collective new' and continuing work'" - doesn't it?

I'm so glad you are enjoying Runaway - there's a similar quality of "ordinariness" as you describe it - as we find here. You are all invited to join us in our discussion of Alice Munro's new collection of short stories...beginning Feb. 1 - Click here for more info - Runaway

Now, back to our story...

Babi, Big Stone Gap is in the heart of the Appalachian Mountains-Kentucky is just a short drive away. I will try to find “The Little Shepherd of Kingdom Come” – would love to read it.

Joan, As I recall the Pine is no longer standing. I believe a lady at the museum told us it came down during a storm. An interesting tidbit: We went early in the day to visit the museum and to purchase tickets. While we were waiting for the museum to open a little old lady, riding a bicycle, came by and headed to the entrance of the playhouse. My husband attempted to talk to her but she was not interested in conversation. She just said I work here and continued on her way. We found out later, from a lady at the museum, that she rides her bicycle down from one of the mountains to paint the set for the play - she also said that the lady is a very private person and they don’t know much about her. Most of the actors are locals-they really put their heart into it.

I didn’t know the story of The Trail of the Lonesome Pine before seeing the play and still have not read the book. That will be my next read.

I started “Gilead” today and am enjoying it-lot’s of thought provoking questions come to mind. It’s not a quick read. Senior Net discussions add so much.

Thanks to all

Jayfay, thanks for the info about 'Trail of . . . .. ' I have forwarded much of it to my daughter who lives in Charlottesville and likes to explore new places.

Re: covetise -- . I asked my brother to check his Oxford English Dictionary -- this is what he sent.

Covetise (per OED) seems to be a slightly stronger word than covet. OED: "Ardent, excessive or inordinate desire, lust."

It's listed as Obs. and Arch. (couldn't find it any other dictionary) Chaucer, c1386, said "...coueytise of eyen folwith the coueytise of the herte."

Couldn't have said it any better myself. There are about a dozen different spellings (or misspellings).

Thanks, Pedln - "Covetise (per OED) seems to be a slightly stronger word than covet." To me this just emphasizes the fact that the Rev. Ames has spent much of his life wrestling with a sin he considers to be quite serious - although we need to dig further to see what it is he fears Jack will do to his family, once he is gone. Does he fear that Jack "covets" his wife and son as much as he himself had coveted Rev. Boughton's family - including his son, Jack? He revealed something about this when he said -

"It is seldom that any wrong one suffers is not thoroughly foreshadowed by wrongs one has done."

*************************
Jayfay, it sounds to me that this old lady in black on her bike (was it a black dress?) - is a Tolliver. You must read Lonesome Pine - you walked the walk and met the people 0 heard the talk. You will recognize them in the book!

But now, I think you should go off to your own cozy corner and read Gilead - perhaps reread some of the earlier posts. BUT don't go any further than this, or the ending will be revealed to you before you read it for yourself. We really look forward to hearing from you again in a few days...

Have the rest of you finished the book? What did you think? We learn a lot, but there are some things that go unanswered too. Maybe we have to fill in the blanks, eh Bern? I wish Marilynne Robinson could hear us - or maybe not.

I loved turning from page 188 where John Ames confesses that he has never been able to warm up to the boy. By page 189 he has read over what he wrote and has to admit that what he wrote on the page was just not true. He says that Jack Boughton is indeed his "son" in the sense that he is his "other, more cherished self." What did you understand him to be saying about his feelings towards Jack?

I really must finish this book. I want to know the answers to a number of things. For one, will John Ames tell us more about his wife's history? I am caught by his words, speaking of his wife's courage and pride....."Because no one ever has that sort of courage who hasn't needed it."

There is so much meaning in that simple sentence. It makes me want to be better acquainted with Mrs. John Ames.

Babi

I cannot experience anything but Wonder at the simplicity of Rev Ames’ concluding words.. “ I’ll pray…..I’ll pray… I will pray… And finally I’ll pray and then….”

In the last analysis, isn’t that all we can do for our children??

I envisioned the son reading his, father’s testament over and over again, learning and experiencing each time what T S Eliot, my favorite poet wrote.. a son continuing throughout his own life to see his world “as if for the first time.”

Then I returned to the opening of the book and “caught” the first words, a kind of dialogue between the Rev and his son, “I told you last night….there are many ways to live a good life… And then a father slips into the first of his remembrances.

Now I will go back and read all the entries and enrich my understanding and experience of the the book even more. And, by the way, I'll pray too.

Babi, we do learn more about Mrs. Ames - her name for one. But we don't learn the terrible experience or background from which she came. We just have to accept that it was something bad, that Rev. Ames saw it on her face the first time she stepped into his Church to hear his sermon.

I was MOST interested in the fact that HE was the one who pursued her. That he fell in love with her before he knew anything about her - except for that expression on her face. He's like an infatuated teenager - sprucing up and planning his sermons with her in mind. This is not the way he portrayed the events leading up to her proposal of marriage to him - "you ought to marry me." It was ALL him! He has some very interesting things to say about LOVE - which to me sound as if he is mixing love with passion. He seems to be telling us (the boy) that they are the same. Do you agree with his assessment of love/passion? What will the boy think when he reads this at a future date, Bern? - "a son continuing throughout his own life to see his world 'as if for the first time.'"

This observation on Love made me sit up and take notice...

"Love is holy - like grace. The worthiness of its object is never really what matters." The worthiness of its object is never really what matters.

Hello my fellow Gileadites--

I greet you after far too many days of absence. Somehow, despite actually standing in line and getting a flu shot back in November, I got the dreaded flu. Not as bad as one flu I remember but pretty bad nonetheless. Four or five days of fever and nights full of fever dreams, dreams that cycle with no plot, very repetitive. Like nightmares without the plot. Very glad to be rid of those.

Tomorrow I will attempt to teach for the first time in, gee, I can't even remember how long. Keep your collective fingers crossed for me.

At the beginning of this flu, I had an accident--ran the Honda Accord all the way up on a divider strip going about fifty. Terrible metal on rock noises, but no other car was involved and I was unhurt. Very startled but unhurt. Anyway, the Honda is in the shop awaiting parts (all the damage was to the belly of the beast) and I have a rental car.

A red Jeep!

When I was a little girl, my mother used to say that she was going to get a jeep, a red jeep specifically, and we would travel all over the country and stop anywhere we saw something interesting. I knew this wouldn't happen. My mother didn't even have a license and we certainly didn't have the money for a second car.

So...............I'm really happy to be driving this foreign object. It is so comfortable for my back. Honda can take all the time it wants to find the necessary parts (six if I remember correctly).

Word has it that we are all the way up to the end of the novel. I do have some comments on what I thought was going to happen and then what did happen.

But I'll await the sign that it is OK to comment on the ending. I don't know how many have finished yet and I don't want to ruin anything.

I have read through all the comments I missed and I'm so impressed by our group reading ability.

I too was raised under "New Criticism," close (sometimes too close) reading of the text followed by all manner of points that could be drawn from the work. The method really worked best with poetry I think. I never did know quite what to do when dealing with a novel.

What we are undergoing here is one of the newer schools of critical observation--reader response criticism. This view argues that the text always appears slightly differently upon reading it, even if the same reader is taking the journey. We bring to the text our own experiences, both those from our lives and those drawn from reading other books.

I've missed this discussion. For days I couldn't even read--not because the eyes weren't up to it but because nothing made any sense. Can you imagine what teaching would have been like under those circumstances?

Whatever this thing it, it is virulent. My daughter caught it and both dogs have been sick. First Ben who wouldn't eat and kept throwing up. And now Kemper Elizabeth who, like me, has simply taken to her bed. She keeps shivering even though I have her covered with a blanket.

Maryal

Um-um, sounds like a nasty one, Deems. My sympathies to your daughter, Ben,,and the dogs.

Maybe you should make your next car a red Jeep. Maybe you will actually make that trip you and your mother only talked about. At the very least, you will have a car that's comfortable to your back.

I always thought those 'criticisms' were a bit presumptuous. By that I mean professors were finding obscure underlying 'meanings' and allusions that as often as not the author never intended. I enjoy a poem or book and let it speak to me as it will. Then I can come here and have my perceptions broadened by learnng how it 'spoke' to others.

Babi

I have been coming in each day and reading the comments; but haven't made too many of my own. Someone else seemed to have felt the same things I did and I hated to just put "ditto".

Anyway, I read this book the first of this month while I was sitting in the hospital as my Dad was dying. Reading of a father's letter to his son as HE was dying and seeing my own Dad was a very emotional experience. I'm so glad that this was the book that I was reading because it really spoke to me. It helped me to see so many things that a father feels.

I really liked Rev. Ames and I think that he was much too hard on himself. I think the things he felt for Jack was as much jealousy of the youth of the man and the fact that Jack would be around and see his son grow up. He said so many times that he would miss seeing his son as a young man and how he wished that his son had known the father when he was younger and more active.

At the end of the book, he seems to finally come to understand his own feelings toward Jack and to accept him as he is. I loved the scene of the rebaptism and how it seemed to touch both the older and the younger man.

I look forward to reading the comments of the others who have posted here.

Judy

Oh Maryal, I thought you had deserted for parts unknown. I was not aware that you had been in an accident with your car NOR that you had contacted the flu bug. Nurse Ratchett would have made a house call, however, I'm glad that I did not. Even poor Kemper Eliz. wasn't able to escape your contagion. Give my love to Susan and tell her "to eat chicken soup!!!" Please know -you are in my thoughts.

JUDY, my sympathies on the loss of your father. How nice that you had Gilead to read just at that time.

I think you are right about Rev. Ames. Truly good people do set higher standards for themselves than they do others. I think that is partly because they recognize that they don't know the other persons mind and heart, but they have no such excuse for themselves.

Babi

Maryal, welcome back! What a nightmare! When it rains, it pours. But it's behind you now - except the catching up! The rest of us who have had our flu shots are really nervous now! And even the dogs caught it? Not surprised, your dogs are more than pets - they're people! We are all looking forward to your insights into Gilead - as soon as you catch up with the rest of your life! (Yes, Yes, Yes, it is now okay to comment on the rest of the book - or anything else in the whole book!) The accident sounds horrendous, but it could have been worse. You weren't hurt. hahaha, can just see you now zipping around in the little red jeep!

Judy, Babi, I agree Reverend Ames is too hard on himself - but what he also makes clear during moments of his self-flagellation is that he is human. With human passions, weaknesses and failures. What seems to me to be important is that he is writing his way to FORGIVENESS in his diary. Judy, the fact that the book was solace to you at your father's bedside indicates he was at peace with himself at the end. What can be more important?

Babi, an interesting idea - the Rev. thought he should be above the failings of others, that he should know better because of his calling. I think the first thing one has to do on his/her faith journey is to recognize that he is no higher, better, nor more accountable than any one else. He is first of all, HUMAN!

Judy, you attribute the Reverend's fears regarding Jack's threat to the family he will leave behind - simply to "jealousy" of his youth - that he would be around to see his son grow up. It's poignant to learn that Jack most likely will not be around to watch his own son grow up. It's easy to draw mistaken conclusions about the motivation of others, isn't it? What's always lacking is - communication. It's not until the end of Ames' life that this finally does happen. My greatest fear was that the Rev. Ames and Jack would NEVER make their peace and was sorry that this couldn't have happened between Jack and his loving father too.

I'm interested in Jack as the Prodigal Son here...did he come home as the Prodigal...or with hopes that he would be received as the Prodigal? And was he?

Newvoyager wrote a post last week on this...I'm going to move it up here for your consideration today.

As I mentioned in my first post (# 56) I saw in GILEAD a retelling of the story of the Prodical Son. Jack Broughton had a reputation from childhood as a prankster, sometimes with an element of meanness. As a young man he leaves the home of his loving preacher-father after he fathers an illegitimate child, knowing that his father and sister would help look after it. The child comes to a pitiful end.

John is doubly fortunate in having Rev. John Ames as his spiritual father. When he returns to Gilead 20 years later he presses the Rev John for an explanation of the dogma of predestination. So much so that it becomes obvious that he hopes that this principal would explain (read “justify”) his meanness. The Rev. Ames skirts the issue several times, preferring to speak of salvation and forgiveness.

After some time at home be reveals to Rev. Ames that he has fathered another illegitimate child. But this time he is anxious to raise the child and marry it’s mother. Unfortunately for Jack his common-law wife’s father and her family convince her not to invite him back to resume the respectable life that he had planned. (And of course this father is also a preacher)

The story ends with Rev. Ames forgiving Jack for all of the mean actions in his life and accompanies him to the beginning of his second exodus from Gilead. Dramatically, he symbolically blesses Jack as he boards the bus, calling him a good man. This is what Jack has been longing to hear from someone all of his life, but especially Rev. John. And significantly, at this their final parting the Preacher calls himself “the good son” since he never left his father’s house. (Thus completing both sides of the Prodical Son parable.)

The sense that I was left with is that the author is saying that there is a hope of forgiveness that overcomes predestination.

What do you think?

Newvoyager

When I waws reading about Rev. Ames being jealous of Jack, I had an impression that he was afraid that Jack would come in and take his place after he died - perhaps even marry his widow. At that time, of course, I didn't know that Jack already had a wife - well, a common law wife at least - but then neither did Rev. Ames. Did anyone else get that feeling?

Pamela

Scamper/Pamela--I had the same idea going. I not only thought that John Ames feared that Jack might step into his place, husband to his wife, father to his son, BUT I also thought from fairly early on in the novel that Lila might very well be the poverty-sticken and uneducated mother of Jack's illegitimate child, the little girl who died at age three. Thus I thought that Mrs. Ames recognized Jack from the time he first appeared. There were a number of clues in the novel to suggest this: the unexplained sadness of Ames' wife, her obvious enjoyment of her conversations with Jack (as if they had known each other from the past), her standing up for him when he asked questions, her scolding of her husband when she thought he was being a little hard on Jack.

When we do finally discover Jack's present situation (and I think that is the least well done of the whole novel) we realize that he has learned something from having abandoned the mother of his first child. He wants to stay with this new family and raise his son. Unfortunately, there are laws in many states against miscegenation so she can only be his common law wife. This ending --not the book's ending, but the final outcome of Jack's story--seemed almost like cheating to me. Robinson had done such a wonderful job of developing Ames, and we understood at last that it was young Jack Boughton's devilish (and nearly cruel) behavior as a boy that had kept Ames from warming to him, I mean the kid removed a Greek New Testament and a photograph in addition to all sorts of other pranks.

Of course, in defense of the ending, we are brought full circle to the relationship between whites and blacks (this time in the late 1950s when the Civil Rights demonstrations were beginning in force) that we had looked at before from the point of view of the Ames grandfather. Still, I just didn't like it.

I wouldn't, by the way, have liked an ending that developed as I thought it might with the old relationship of Ames' wife and Jack being revealed.

What did the rest of you think?

I did love Ames going to see Jack off and truly blessing him this time, as well as his solution of returning to prayer for solace.

Maryal

Maryal, I'm glad you're feeling better. Not fair getting the flu after getting a flu shot. I hope the Honda recovers as well as you.

I'm leaving for the beach at 8 am tomorrow, we hope, and shouldn't be here, but can't leave without saying thanks to our discussion leaders as well as thanks to all of you who posted and aided in my understanding of this book.

Like Judy, I don't want to say ditto, and I find as I read your posts that I am continuously saying ditto. I'm glad Robinson didn't tell us everythng. I'm glad she didn't point out things that might be obvious, and I'm glad she left this reader feeling good about salvation and forgiveness.

A couple of memories surprised me. I'd forgotten the "manse" or the "parsonage" that so many ministers and their families lived in, and apparently Ames did also -- "Boughton owns his house" -- and had no housing after retirement. Perhaps that's why some preached until they died. Our minister in the 70's really lobbied for a housing allowance, said the seminaries were urging telling young ministers to fight for them. And the laws against inter-racial marriage. Even into our adulthood. It's hard to believe they existed so recently. We've come a long way.

I could not have read this book by myself. Thanks.

Well good, I'm glad we've gotten to the end of this book. I loved reading so many of the moving passages and pondering the Reverend's thoughts BUT I hated the way it ended. I don't quite know how I would have ended it myself but it's as if the author had written 2 stories in one. The prodigal son returns and then leaves again. The lonliness continues and the dread remains. Boughton's right, the one truism is"Jesus never had to get old!"
It cheered me at the end to read... "It has seemed to me sometimes as though the Lord breathes on this poor gray ember of Creation and it turns to radiance- for a moment or a year or a span of a life. It then sinks back into itself again and to look at it noone would know it had anything to do with fire or light."

Jealousy - Judy, what if the man showing interest in playing ball with young Ames was any other man but Jack Ames? Do you think the Reverend would have the same sleepless nights? The same fears? I got the feeling that the fact that it WAS Jack is what bothered him. Jack has tried to get his goat with the numerous rascallion (is there such a word?) tricks all his life. I think it is MORE than jealousy that makes him fear Jack. I think that he fears Jack will do harm to his young son and his wife- because that is the kind of thing Jack has done in the past. He left his own young daughter in peril until she died.

I think he did not understand Jack - and it was his own failured relationship with Jack that troubled his conscience. He blamed himself for having avoided Jack - not accepting Jack - since the baptism.

Judy, these words stick with me (do you believe them?):

"It is seldom that any wrong one suffers is not thoroughly foreshadowed by wrongs one has done."

He believes that he will be punished - even after death for his own wrongs - with the knowledge that Jack will harm his family. And he believes hs has in some way wronged young Jack Ames.

Maryal, I recognized Lila as the mother of Jack's illegimate child as well. I think Marilynne Robinson plotted it that way to stress the similarities of their stories. Jack now finds himself excluded from the family he loves - because of his "whiteness" - He must suffer for the wrong he has done to that first child and her mother; the white man must suffer for the wrong he has done to the black." I thought it was a magnificent conclusion. The door is left open though - Jack has repented. Does this count? Because of this, will he overcome all difficulties and bring the child and his mother home to Iowa, to Gilead? Is there balm in Gilead?

Another question we might ask - has Jack repented? Has he come back to Gilead as the Prodigal Son, asking his father's forgiveness? Obviously not. He thinks he'll kill his father if he tells him the truth. Jack seems painfully unable to be truthful, doesn't he? He carries much guilt. He seems to feel that he is beyond forgiveness. Should he have faced his father with the truth? Doesn't John Ames seem to believe that Boughton could have handled it?

Newvoyager brings up the Rev. John Ames as Jack's spiritual father. M. Robinson makes much of the Baptism, the spiritual gift of Rev. Boughton's own child to his childless friend. What was Rev. Boughton's first name by the way - does anyone remember? Was it Robert?

At the end, Ames recognizes Jack as his spiritual child. Does Jack make amends in any way - to his spiritual father. Is telling the truth his way of asking forgiveness? Asking his spiritual father if he can come home again to Gilead?

It was a moving scene - especially when Ames tells Jack he is a good son, husband, father. I got the feeling that as his "spiritual father" he was pardonning Jack for his past transgressions.

Thanks for reminding us Newvoyager - "... at this their final parting the Preacher calls himself “the good son” since he never left his father’s house." The Reverend is forgiving himself too, isn't he? Or at least, feeling himself forgiven as he forgives Jack.

Pedln , I feel the same way - I wouldn't have understood so much of the book without you all. Your posts shone a light into dark corners, references beyond my understanding. I liked it too, Pedln, that Marilynne Robinson did not belabor the obvious, nor did she tell all. This made it possible to believe Ames - to suffer along with him - there was much he himself did not know or understand. There was no omnicient narrator at work here. What Ames knew, we knew and that was all.

Andy, I'd like to talk about the things you hated in the ending.

"The prodigal son returns and then leaves again."
I think he had to leave, didn't he? He can't stay as long as he has the son and woman he wants to marry out there somewhere - . But he leaves with hope that he can return someday to live in Gilead with her. Will she be accepted in Gilead, do you think?
"The loneliness continues and the dread remains."
This is problematic for me too. Somehow, Jack doesn't reflect the joyful, hopeful penitent you'd expect after he has been restored and affirmed as a "good son, father, husband." I was left with the feeling that he is still a lost soul ...did the rest of you feel this way?

I too loved - and was "cheered by" the peace that Rev. Ames feels at the end, Andy - the radiance. I guess I had hoped to see Jack radiate some of this light.

I too felt the trouble Jack got in by taking as his common law wife a person of a different race was a little forced. What did it add to the story? Wouldn't the story have been just as effective if race had not entered into it? Jack would have struggled with being able to make a living and living up to his responsibilities even without the race card. It just seemed contrived to me.

Pamela

What is the Balm in Gilead?
Were the wounded made whole and their sin-sicked souls revived?
NO! It doesn't appear that way to me.
But -then again do we ever become fully reconciled before we die?
Are the wounded and anguished not made better (more whole) by their torment and mental trauma they have been forced to suffer?
I don't have the answers, just many questions.

What is the balm in Gilead?

Is Rev. Ames, himself, the balm in Gilead? Is he the answer to Jack's longing to redeem himself? Or is forgiving Jack the balm to Rev. Ames soul?

Judy

I just got my copy from the library the other day and I am almost half way through the book so will try and catch up to where you are currently by tomorrow night. I was the first person in our library service to get the book as its just been put into the system.

Carolyn

Pamela, I think the race issue is the important underpinning of the whole story, introduced from the start - John Ames' grandfather considered slavery an abomination and "preached his young men" into the war. Went to war himself. Felt that slavery was worse than murder. This theme is repeated - at one point Rev. Ames says that breaking the Commandment to honor father and mother is worse than murder. Honoring all men - and then FORGIVING those who dishonor go hand in hand in Gilead. I think the "race card" had to be played in the next generation and the irony we see in Della's black family not accepting Jack because he is white I thought was especially fitting. Now it is up to the black man to forgive the white man for past wrongs. Will that happen? Maybe that's the question we are left with.

When you sensed it was "contrived" are you referring to the whole issue of the evil of slavery or the fact that Jack fell in love with a black girl? We really weren't well prepared for that bit of news, were we?

Listen to the hymn again - an African American spiritual by the way - There is a balm in Gilead. -

There is a balm in Gilead
To make the wounded whole;
There is a balm in Gilead
To heal the sin-sick soul.

Sometimes I get discouraged,
And think my work's in vain;
But then the Holy Spirit
Revives my soul again.

Gosh, Judy, Andy - those are good questions! How did the rest of you see it? Was there "balm" "to heal the sin-sick soul"? Is Rev. Ames'forgiveness the balm for Jack's troubled soul? - did Jack go away heartened, or discouraged? Was forgiving Jack the balm for Rev. Ames' soul? What I got out of it was the recognition that every one has vulnerabilities, weaknesses and will fail themselves and wrong me sometimes...the "balm" for these "ailments" is forgiveness - mutual forgiveness I guess I'm trying to say. Much was made here of "existence". You make allowances, you forgive another simply because he exists - that alone makes him worthy of it.

Carolyn, I'm sure you will love the book! I suggest that you go back and read the posts as you progress - you should find many helpful comments and information from the participants in this discussion.

Joan,

I am just not seeing the race struggle as the primary message in this book, although as you point out there was some mention of it from generation to generation. I saw Jack's struggles with himself and his family to be enough without suddenly throwing in an extra reason - marrying out of his race - for him to struggle. It seems to me the story would be more powerful without it. Jack's struggles to be a man, to be responsible, and to be accepted are struggles within himself, and I am just not seeing the value added by having him start a relationship with a woman of a different race. To me it clouds Jack's issues with the race issue. Would Rev. Ames accept him, would Jack grow up and be compassionate and responsible, would he and his father bond? Now with the race issue he doesn't even approach his father, and he has even less chance to make it. I just didn't think it fit the story, but I've been wrong before!

Pamela

Joan so far I think its a lovely book. It gives insight into the mind of a father who maybe did not vocalise the feelings he held about fatherhood and the role of son during his lifetime. He did however show in deeds these feelings. As he writes for his son he begins to understand his own father. Its nice to read a book without profanities on every second page. I love reading but don't like reading some of the new best sellers because of the language.

If you think the new books are bad, Kiwi Lady, you must have given up movies entirely. I sometimes find myself watching movies aimed at children by preference! I think you have touched on one of the reasons I have found this book so comforting. ...Babi

Ruth and I got a Meg Ryan movie out the other night it was a thriller. It said sexy on the cover and thought we might only see some bare flesh and we could fast forward. It was so bad it should have been classed as porn. How could she have even acted in it? Must have been hard up. I could not tell you what we saw ten minutes into the film. We stopped the tape and did not watch any more. It should have been X rated.

Carolyn

Pamela, after reading your post and considering the fact that Jack has not made amends with his father - and apparently will not - because his father is dying, I gather that you aren't find the balm in Gilead.

After writing that last sentence, I find myself wondering just what Jack has done to his father? Doesn't it seem that most of his regretable actions were directed at Rev. Ames? Jack does want to tell his father about his son and the black woman he wants to marry - but is afraid it will kill him. I think he wants to let his father know that he has mended his ways and wants to do right by this woman and child - unlike the first child and his mother. Why is he afraid the knowledge will kill his father? Because she is black? Is there strong anti-racial feeling in Gilead? What did Jack mean when he referred to Iowa as the "shining star of radicalism"? Radical in what way?

I still think that "suddenly throwing in an extra reason - marrying out of his race - for him (Jack) to struggle with" was an important part of the story - Can the black man forgive the white man for the wrong he has done to his people? If Della's father can forgive by accepting Jack into the family, AND if Gilead will except his black family as neighbors, there is indeed balm to go round in Gilead. That's how I see it.

At any rate, the Reverend Ames is at peace after his final conversations with Jack - even though it is clear that Jack faces hard days. Didn't you love the imagery in the final scene?

Carolyn, Babi, I just have to add - if you are enjoying Gilead for the reasons you have stated, you will also find some good, contemporary writing in Alice Munro's Runaway ...a collection of long short stories that will stay with you for a long time. This collection was also on the New York Times Book Review's list of the ten best fiction writing in 2004. I guess I'm both surprised and heartened that the Times has seen past the sensational best sellers to select both of these books. We start the discussion on February 1.

I agree wtih those of you who see John Ames's forgiveness of Jack as the balm in Gilead. I doubt that Jack could bring his common law wife back to Gilead with him though, given the time period. One place they could go in the 1950s where they would be accepted would be New Orleans. But much of the country was dead against miscegenation as it was called. A mixed race couple could live any of a number of places (we had one in Bangor, Maine during that time period), but they would stand apart and not really find themselves a part of the community.

I don't see this so much as a retelling of the prodigal son as a story of a young man, prone to many acts of mischief when he was young, whose family always found a way to "forgive" him and cover up for him, doting on him as they did. I don't think Jack's own father ever truly faced what his son had done and thus would not be in a position to "forgive" him. But John Ames who has for years been a witness to Jack's misdeeds as well as being his "spiritual father" is the ideal person for Jack to confess to as well as to be forgiven by.

For me it's enough that Jack really wants to do right by his "wife" and little son. I think he will find a way to do this, difficult as it will be.

Maryal

Thanks for the recommendation, JOAN. I rarely read short stories, but these sound like something special. I'll check my library for them.

Babi

There were few families that would have accepted a 'mixed' marriage in this time period, and, yes, I think that Jack's father would have a very difficult time with it. He might have gotten beyond it, perhaps, but I doubt Jack could have been accepted in Gilead. There are still big problems with mixed marriages, partly because of prejudice and partly because you just know the couple is going to have a difficult problem with acceptance in the community.

I think I'm the only person reading along here that didn't love this book. It's all about where you are in your life, I think, and apparently I'm not where this book is! I'm going to give Alice Munroe a try, though!

Pamela

pedln - I received my book late and stopped reading the post until I caught up. I see from your Post 209 that your daughter lives in Charlottesville, VA - so do I. I hope she can visit Big Stone Gap.

And Joan,you live in Arlington, VA- several Virginians in this discussion. There is infant in my care also. I baby-sit my 3-month old grandson and 3 yr-old granddaughter. Is the 3-month old in your house your grandchild?

I finished Gilead yesterday and have re-read all of the posts. This is my first time to participate in a book discussion on SeniorNet and contributed very little. The book would not have been near as interesting without the input from everyone. This is a great book. I will put it aside for a while but want to read it again.

When Jack Boughton returned as the Prodical Son it was not his father’s forgiveness that he sought. Rather it was that of his spiritual father, Rev. Ames. And he did indeed receive that forgiveness as I described in Post #222.

Now for a last disturbing thought. Was I previously wrong in believing that the notion of forgiveness had displaced that of predestination in Jack’s soul? Or can we expect him to live a tormented life in the future, believing that he never could be forgiven? A chilling thought indeed.

Or does he leave as Cain? Only the author could clear up these questions. Or could you?

This was an interesting book. Is this ending like the one in the Hemingway novel, The Short Happy Life Of Francis Macumber ?

Newvoyager

It seems to me that Jack’s father and family continually forgave him for his misgivings as they occurred without his confession or asking for forgiveness or perhaps they turned a deaf ear. However, Jack may have felt a need to confess and just could not talk to his father. He was forgiven by Rev. John Ames and forgave him in return. I think he will at some point seek God’s forgiveness and find true peace. My hope is that he will eventually be accepted by both families and find happiness with the woman he loves and his child whether in Gilead or someplace else. I like happy endings .

I like happy endings, too. But I think in this book, as in real life, one gets there by stages. No fairy godmother waving a wand, but a step at a time. It seems to me we have seen the first breakthrough. The rest can come with time and effort.

Babi

Babi I agree it will take time and effort for Jack and for the two families as well. Prejudices are hard to overcome and family relations take time to heal and often never do.

The end of my post #246 was a smiley face but somehow turned out to be &#61514.

I could never write such a letter such as in "Gilead." But I am thinking what a special gift it would be to write a similar letter/journal to our children or grandchildren. My paternal grandmother died when I was seven and I have little remembrance of her. The others died before I was born. I thought as I read this how wonderful it would be to know more about them.

Newvoyager brings up "one last disturbing thought" regarding predestination and Jack Boughton's soul. Is he one of those destined to live in torment? We seem to agree that the Rev. John Ames has been soothed by the "balm" in forgiving Jack's sins, but what of Jack? What do the rest of you see in his future?

I want to believe that the blessing he received from his "spiritual father" - the affirmation that he is a good person, son, father will provide him the strength to live up to those words.

The whole question of PREDESTINATION still baffles me. I understand that Congregationalists no longer emphasize this concept - that some are marked for damnation from birth - but WHEN did this belief lose favor? What was preached from the pulpits in 19th century Iowa?

Newvoyager asks if Jack leaves Gilead as Cain and suggests that only the author could clear up these questions. My feeling is that Marilynne Robinson has spoken - through the words of John Ames when he quotes Augustine:

"The Lord loves each of us as an only child, and He will wipe the tears from all faces."

Babi, I always think the ending is a happy one when the protagonist finds joy - and peace...so I'll mark this one as a "happy" one. But I do agree with you, Jack has an uphill journey before his happy ending is realized. There is hope - his heart's in the right place. As Maryal says, "Jack really wants to do right by his "wife" and little son." That's half the battle. His heart is in the right place, and hopefully he will carry Rev. Ames words with him, remembering that "the Lord loves each of us as an only child."

Jayfay, when you wrote about Jack's father unquestioning forgiveness, I thought of the All-Forgiving Lord who will wipe every tear. I guess the problem is that Jack shows no remorse, sheds no tear, asks no forgiveness. Do you believe his father would have forgiven Jack if he went to him and told him of his wife and child? I like to think he would. Am going to hunt through the book to see if I can find Rev. Boughton's first name. I'd like to think it was Robert and that his grandson is named after him...

Pamela, you may be right - some of us may be in a place in our lives right now where we need some reassurance. I'd be real interested to know - FROM YOU - WHY you think the New York Times Book Review panel selected this book for 2004? What do you think THEY saw it it?

Jayfay, my little grandbaby is now four months old - I care for him Tuesdays through Fridays each week from now until April 1. I love him dearly, will probably go through some emotional stress when he leaves, but must mention that I had forgotten how much constant work babies can be!

It was our great pleasure to have you with us - you never forget your first book discussion! We hope to see you with Pamela in the discussion of Alice Munro's Runaway ,which starts tomorrow.

Yes, yes, yes, I thought the same thing - a letter or a journal would be an ideal gift to leave to our families. And when I read about Rev. Ames sorting through all those sermons from his attic, I thought of the boxes of unlabelled photographs in my own. I DID notice at the end that he has told his wife to throw away his sermons - "They mattered or they didn't and that's the end of it." But sermons aren't personal letters, or photographs - or are they?

jayfay--You and I are on the same page. I think one of the things that went "wrong" with Jack was that his siblings and parents continually forgave him or covered up for him or took over his responsibilities (the girl and her baby daughter). He seems to have been really understood only by John Ames who remembered all his meannesses and getting into trouble. Thus, John Ames, his spiritual father, is really more of a father, willing to admit that the boy is far from perfect than his real father is. Jack was indulged; John Ames's older brother Edward was also indulged and became a great disappointment to his family.

I think a little constant discipline would have helped young Jack a good deal.

As for predestination, I think Jack contemplates it at such length because after his shady past he must wonder if he is just one of those born to not be saved. (After all, if his own parents won't correct him, what self-worth does he have?) And then there's the incident of the young girl that he impregnates and deserts. That has to weigh heavily on his conscience.

Ever an optimist, I think he is on the right track now. I think he will find a way to care for his wife and little son. The past can always be redeemed. It can't be changed, but people can change.

Maryal

I think sermons are quite different from personal letters/photographs. Sermons are addressed to the entire church congregation/community. Although it would be difficult for a pastor not to share some personal events/experiences.

Personal letters are addressed to a particular person/family and perhaps include things that would not be shared with a larger group. I would treasure a letter from a grandparent that was written especially for me.

It made me sad to think of Rev. Ames sermons being burned-a lifetime of writing. I wonder how many pastors have written all of their sermons and have kept them. What will they do with them?

I read recently of a lady who had spent many years putting together a family album and commented that it would likely not be appreciated two generations from now. My husband has done lots of research on his family history and has boxes of information, the younger family members show no interest so far-perhaps they will when they are older.

(After all, if his own parents won't correct him, what self-worth does he have?) –

Maryal – I think you hit the nail on the head here. Constant discipline from his Dad would have made a big difference in Jack’s life. Eli’s sons apparently lacked discipline too.

To all that think that Jack feels that he has been forgiven... It is a real pleasure to read of such realistic optimism and Faith. Sometimes it it through doubt that we can find the truth. Sometimes.

Signing off.

Newvoyager

Just from my own observations there do seem to be some people who almost from birth reject God. I have seen this in my own extended family. It has upset me terribly.

If we see the good in others and we encourage them ( particularly children) I do think it does help them to aspire to be a good human being.

Carolyn

Pamela, you may be right - some of us may be in a place in our lives right now where we need some reassurance. I'd be real interested to know - FROM YOU - WHY you think the New York Times Book Review panel selected this book for 2004? What do you think THEY saw it it?

Joan, I don't really know what the criteria was for selecting the NY Times books, of course. I do think we are going through a time of greater introspection in this country right now after 911, Iraq, and so many world disasters. Could that be part of the appeal? The NY Times review mentions a "Protestant bareness". That is what I have trouble with - perhaps because I am not Protestant. The review goes on to say "Robinson's words have a spiritual force that's very rare in contemporary fiction." I don't disagree with that. I don't dislike the book or the author. It just didn't sing to me like it did to many of you.

Pamela

I do not hear sermons every Sunday, but if I had a grandfather or father who was a preacher, I would never ever throw his sermons out. I'd probably organize them and have them permanently bound even if I weren't interested in them at the time.

Every sermon was worked on for a message. How could you throw this out of your family? It was sad to me that no one had ever gone back and read them or shown any interest in them. Realistic, perhaps, but sad. I've found that few family members are that interested in their heritage until they are quite elderly themselves. My Dad wrote an autobiography, which I lightly edited and had printed at the neighborhood print shop while he was still living. I'm really glad I have it now that he's gone, but it doesn't mean the same to me as it did to him. Still, I just want to grab those sermons and never let go!

Pamela

I have heard some of the sermons of John Dunne or Donn as some people spell it. They are truly amazing. I wish I could find a copy of them ( they were published) although written a very long time ago they are truly inspirational.

Carolyn

Carolyn, I typed in 'the sermons of John Donne' and found that you can read the text of all of his sermons at this web site:

www.lib.byu.edu/donne

Under the box with 'search', click on 'browse the sermons' and they all come up.

Let me know if you are able to access the site.

The sermons do look interesting.

Judy

Well, that's an interesting thought! Storing boxes of sermons on the Internet would surely eliminate the boxes in the attic! But Gilead is set in the 1950's, so that wasn't really an option back then. Perhaps Rev. Ames is mistaken in assuming that his sermons wouldn't mean anything to his son. The boy will grow up without a father - his mother can tell him about what a good man he was, how he takes after his father... and of course he will have this journal to read - and reread. But to find his father - in his youth, the sermons would offer great insight.

When we were considering Gilead for discussion, we knew it wouldn't be an easy book to discuss. I guess when you read someone's personal diary, it is just that. The book spoke to each of us in a different way - depending on our own experience.

That "we" are going through "a time of greater introspection right now" may very well explain the interest in this book, Pamela. That we conclude we must "see the good in others and encourage them (particularly children)" is a powerful message to come away with, Carolyn. Newvoyager - "a hopeful ending". To come away with "realistic optimism and Faith" that forgiveness is to be had is a potent message during this time of greater introspection.

Thank each and every one of you for what you have brought to this table. Your willingness to share has made the message of this book come alive.

Let me add my thanks to Joan's. I have very much enjoyed the comments of different readers. It is so very true that part of what we get out of a book is what we bring to it, how we are feeling when we read it, past experiences and other reading experiences.

I have loved this book because I grew up in a minister's family and married a minister's son. I remember how hard my father used to work on his sermons and how very tired he would be Sunday evening. Because he taught, he couldn't always take it easy on Monday but sometimes he was lucky to get a schedule that didn't demand that he teach on Monday.

I mentioned before that when he died I took one box of his handwwritten sermons (they were always handwritten although he was an excellent typist) and that I still have it stored away. I have no idea which group I got. He preached for more than 60 years. But I think I will get that box out one of these days and see if I can tell, by topical references, when roughly they were preached.

I heard Dad preach a number of times, and several of his sermons were published. My very favorite was one that he preached that had Joan of Arc as a central figure. It was called "Full Courage Now, As Always." It was one of the sermons that was published so I have a copy.

By the way, I am not altogether sure that John Ames won't be around for a while. Yes, he is 76 (or is it 77?) and he has a heart condition, but he seems to be taking good care of himself and he certainly has not retired from life the way his friend Boughton has. Perhaps he will be around another ten or fifteen years, enough time for his little son to grow up.

Thank you, all.

Maryal