Good Earth ~ Pearl Buck ~ 4/00 ~ Book Club Online
Ginny
March 15, 2000 - 01:56 pm
CarolinColorado
March 16, 2000 - 05:48 am
Thanks for the e-mail message from Pat. Good to see you Ginny. I read this book years ago & Pearl Buck was an inspiring person. Looking forward to this discussion. Carol
Ginny
March 16, 2000 - 03:23 pm
Great, Carol!! So glad to see you here, I'm really looking forward to this one, a GREAT book. We will enjoy our new perspectives on it.
Ginny
Maril
March 18, 2000 - 09:49 pm
This was required reading for high school, I know I read it, but I am having a senior moment and can't remember anything (grin). I sent for it, should have it done before April 1st. Looking forward to our discussion. My books come on tape!
Maril
Ginny
March 19, 2000 - 10:33 am
Maril!! How super to see you here, you are more than welcome!~ I also am looking forward to rereading it with my "new" eyes, everything seems to have a different perspective~ Will it hold up or not?
It's just like reading it for the first time.
So glad you're planning to join us!
Ginny
ALF
March 19, 2000 - 11:04 am
WOW, Ginny, you're assembling quite a group here for the read. I wish my book would come so I could get a hop, skip and jump on it. I've never read it.
I was also in hopes that I could rent the movie (released in 1937) starring Paul Muni . The producer of this was inspired by the stage play and intended to make a great epic ( probably like GWTW.) MGM sponsored an expedition to China and brought back 18 tons of props and dismantled Chinese shacks, as well as two million feet of footage for the film's background. More than 500 acres of land was converted in the San Fernando Valley into a mock Chinese province, complete with indigenous Chinese foliage that required special irrigation . The Chinese govt. aslo sent a general to supervise the production and make certain cultural accuracy was maintained.
The budget was $ 2,816,000, the most expensive since Ben Hur (1926.)
Ginny
March 19, 2000 - 01:35 pm
Wow and double wow, Andrea~~ WHAT a pleasure you have in store for you, I hope you like it.
And THANK YOU for that fascinating background on the movie! I've never seen the movie and am not sure.... let's DO TRY to see it when we finish and see if it lives up to our own personal images of what the book represented to us! I will watch the cable stations and see if it is scheduled, sounds like a big production.
I think this is going to be so fun. We have several different types of perspectives possible here: the first time reader, the reader (like me) who read it and remembers its greatness, who doesn't remember much of the plot, and is half afraid to visit it again, and the reader of WAITING who can compare it with Ha Jin's prose and perspective.
And the book is simplicity itself. It's simple and unique, like Animal Farm, but is not, as far as I am aware, an allegory. As a great fan of (but unable to confine myself to) spare prose, I hope to just bathe in its glory. (It's that good, if you haven't read it). After all, how many books win a Pulitzer and are part of a Nobel trilogy?
Ginny
Barbara St. Aubrey
March 19, 2000 - 02:01 pm
Darn it - y'all did it again - here I was trying to limit my joining book groups to two or three and another good one that I can't pass up. The graphic on top is just too much, especially with the quoted song. So subtle and the colors are just so wonderful. Clear, calm, all enduring, not the riotous colors of aggression as the book jacket, to me, depicts. Although as I remember bits of this story they are caught in a time of exploiding change.
Gosh Alf I had no idea that was China's contribution - and what is amazing those funds diverted to China during the 30s may have saved them from some of the Japanesse autrocities and maybe even have halted the take over by Mao. Because frankly, for all that money and persuit of excellance I do not remember the movie being that important to the top remembered movies of the era. I value art and will look forward to finding the movie, and I will marvel at the scenery now but at the expense of so many lives is hard.
SarahT
March 19, 2000 - 05:09 pm
Here is an excellent preface to a book on Pearl Buck, which explains her history and upbringing, why she fell out of favor, and why (according to the author) she deserves recognition as one of America's great authors.
http://dept.english.upenn.edu/Projects/Buck/preface.html
Barbara St. Aubrey
March 19, 2000 - 07:11 pm
Sarah not only a wonderful article but also, a wonderful site - I got lost for over an hour - this is one time when I would love to read both books at the same time - Need to find out if it is available at my local or if I must order of the net.
CarolinColorado
March 20, 2000 - 07:20 am
Hi - I am anxious to get this book. Maril, you mentioned this being required reading in your high school - I read this in high school, also. It is apparently still required reading according to a student I spoke with this week. I don't recall the movie. Carol
Ginny
March 20, 2000 - 10:26 am
Sarah, thank you eternally for that site of all sites, it's marvelous marvelous information, going up in the heading right now along with some quotes!
Ginny
ALF
March 20, 2000 - 11:37 am
GINNY: and others who have read this before--- does this story take place during the Boxer Rebellion? Is there a great deal of factual, historical information thruout this story?
Ginny
March 20, 2000 - 04:15 pm
Alf, that's a great question, I'm having trouble finding a definitive answer, maybe somebody else here can do better!
I have found that the book was published in 1931 and so an anaylsis of the age of Wang Lung would seem to indicate that the time period of the book took place between 1890 and 1927. Wang Lung lived in the southern city around the time of the Boxers. That would pinpoint the date around 1900. Also in the last chapter the author speaks of the revolution as having taken place, so the conclusion of the dates 1890-1927 is about as accurate as critics think they can get.
I found this fascinating, tho, from Sarah's site:
"Unlike almost every other American of her
generation, Pearl Buck grew up knowing China as
her actual, day-to-day world, while America was
the place of conjecture and simplified images.
Furthermore, almost uniquely among white
American writers, she spent the first half of her
life as a minority person, an experience that had
much to do with her lifelong passion for
interracial understanding.
Since she lived for so many years in China, and
spoke and read Chinese, Buck had a unique
vantage point as a witness to the making of the
modern Chinese nation. She was caught up in the
Boxer Uprising of 1900, the 1911 Revolution, and
the civil wars of the 1920s and 1930s. She knew
personally some of the men and women who
participated in the "science and democracy"
movement and the May Fourth movement. She
took part in the debates over Confucianism, and
was a sympathetic observer of the Chinese
struggle to emancipate women.
Similarly, Buck's American years, from the
mid-1930s to her death in 1973, can only be
illuminated by reference to a further list of
cultural subjects: the history of American
attitudes toward China; the controversy over
imperialism and the debate over immigration; the
problematic status of popular culture; the
American civil rights and women's rights
movements; the witch-hunts of the McCarthy
period.
. At one time or another in the course
of her eighty years, Buck's friends and
adversaries included Sinclair Lewis, Margaret
Mead, James T. Farrell, Chiang Kai-shek and
Mme. Chiang, Theodore Dreiser, Margaret
Sanger, Edgar Snow and Helen Foster Snow, Lin
Yutang, Eleanor Roosevelt, Winston Churchill,
Alaine Locke, Will Rogers, Charles Lindbergh, Hu
Shih, Rose Kennedy, John Kennedy, Oscar
Hammerstein, II, Indira Gandhi, James Yen,
Owen Lattimore, Henry Luce, Christopher
Isherwood, and Jawaharlal Nehru, among many
others.
James Michener, who served on the original
Welcome House board of directors, recently
recalled his long association with Pearl Buck:
"She was a spokesman on all sorts of issues:
freedom of the press, freedom of religion, the
adoptability of disadvantaged children, the
future of China, especially the battle for
women's rights, for education. If you followed in
her trail, as I did, you were put in touch with
almost every major movement in the United
States -- intellectual, social, and political."7
Chinese scholars and students
are exhibiting a renewed interest in Pearl Buck.
When we came back from Anhwei province to
Nanking, for example, we spent several evenings
with Liu Haiping, the distinguished dean of the
School of Foreign Studies at the University of
Nanjing. During one dinner, Liu argued
provocatively that Buck is the only American
writer whose work is, in part at least, a product
of Chinese culture. As such, she provides an
almost unique case study in the complexity of
cultural identity.
Beyond that, many young Chinese regard Buck's
novels as a valuable historical record -- a
"treasure trove," in Liu Haiping's phrase -- of
China's rural life in the early twentieth
century.8 I have recently received a letter from
a group of scholars in Chengdu, in Szechuen
(Sichuan) province, which confirms Liu's opinion.
These men and women, a group called De Heng
Fan, are translating Buck's novels into Chinese.
"Through [these books]," they write, "we
understand the Chinese farmers' hardship,
struggle and happiness before the establishment
of the People's Republic of China."
Wasn't she a worthy and fascinating person who dwarfs most of the rest of the world? I'm so glad we are choosing to read this book and that the Chinese themselves look to it for understanding of what the real China was like before the revolution? Don't remember if it contains historical events or not, that's why I'm glad we're rereading it.
I've always been foggy on THE LAST EMPEROR and the BOXER REBELLION. Have always been fascinated by the Boxers!!! They were so called because they believed and scared everybody else into believing that they were so tough they could deflect bullets with their bare fists!
Thus, "Boxers." But the old Empress, was she the one with the opium?? And is she the one who dies at the beginning of THE LAST EMPEROR?
Much confusion, but as I know our Book Discussions, all will be revealed by our participants and we'll really know more than we ever dreamed.
Ginny
ALF
March 20, 2000 - 06:10 pm
Ginny, I've found some links while researching, but haven't a CLUE how to make it accesible for the rest of you.
andrea
jane
March 20, 2000 - 06:14 pm
ALF: Try just pasting them in a posting...and try leaving a space in front of the http part. That may turn it into a clickable/hot link.
If not, someone will be along who can fix it and make it a link for you. So...please post your sites.
šjane›
Ed Zivitz
March 21, 2000 - 10:47 am
For another cinematic view of 1926 China ,the film, The Sand Pebbles, with Steve McQueen & Richard Attenborough, is a fine film,although it runs over 3 hours and deals with gun-boat diplomacy.
I live close to Bucks County,where Pearl Buck had her farm & as I recall (this was many years ago)there was a huge scandal involving her foundation ( I think she was already deceased)and the mis-use of funds by the then foundation director ( cannot recall his name).
FYI: Currently,there is a huge adoption market for Chinese babies,especially girls, by American couples. The cost is enormous & entails lots of travel and paperwork in China.
Barbara St. Aubrey
March 21, 2000 - 09:27 pm
Well I did it! While picking up my copy of The Good Earth I found Peter Conn's Pearl S. Buck A cultural Biography Does it ever give more understanding to The Good Earth and also Pearl, as she prefered being called, wrote another book about that last Empress called Imperial Woman. Evidently, born into one of the lowly ranks she moved to the Forbidden City at age seventeen as one of hundreds of concubines and with her beauty and manipulation ascended into the position of Second Consort. She was most beloved by the peasants and townspeople who saw her "in heroic dimensions" so much that villages in the inlands, for decades after her death, thought she was still alive and were frightened when they heard she was dead. They would cry asking "Who will care for us now?" Yes, I bought the book also.
Ginny
March 22, 2000 - 02:16 am
Ed!! I forgot you live right there, practically, are any of her children still running her Foundation? It would be super to be able to talk to them!
Barbara, I just read Conn's Introduction to the paperback I've got, isn't HE marvelous? Wonder if he's still at U Penn? I thnk I will write and see if he's there and if he'd cast any light here on our discussion!
I didn't realize that Imperial Woman was ABOUT the old Empress. From what I read last night, the last Emperess was a Manchu. Conn said that the "Last Emperor, " Pu Yi, a four year old, abdicated in favor of a republic.
But I seem to remember the movie The Last Emperor saying that he sort of had a wasted life and then was sent to Japan when the Japanese took over China?
Am once again, as always, confused.
But it's rich and fascinating, isn't it? Am still not sure about the answer to Andrea's question as to how much historical background there will be in the book, I want to keep watching for clues.
NOT to mention the book is so totally well written, a good read to settle down with.
Wang Ginny
Barbara St. Aubrey
March 22, 2000 - 11:28 am
My word look at this site - it appears to be a Bibliography of every known english published book on every concievable area of Chinese culture, lit, history, science--you name it. Put together by Benjamin A. Elman Professor of Chinese History, UCLA, 1986 to present. Visiting Mellon Professor, School of Historical Studies, Institute for Advanced Study, Princeton, N.J., 1999-2001
Fields of interest: late imperial and modern Chinese intellectual and cultural history, 1000-1930; history of education in
China, 1600-1900; history of science in imperial and modern China.
Bibligraphy of Chinese Studies This is a delightful site in that it is not only a timetable of all the Chinese Dynasties
but has an accompanying dictionary that after you click on a Chinese symbol, it shows the english translation for all those mysterious marks.
Chines Dynasties with Dictionary
OK if in the little box you hit animate it takes you to a page that shows you how to draw the word symbol.
And finally do you want a Chinese name? There are several versions that will come up but for me I love this version Song Baorui which means Song; Treasure, jewel, precious,rare; Sharp.
If you click on the name after it is created there is sound version!
Find your Chinese Name Oh yes, I even learned my English name Barbara means - BO which goes together to mean: Bamboo fence; La with a streight line over the a, which combined means: hand, standing up - as in playing the violin
Ella Gibbons
March 23, 2000 - 07:43 am
Will have to come back to all of this when I have more time, but I do have the book and will be in on the discussion come April. As most of you did, I read this book years and years ago and many more of Buck's books afterward. I loved it and it is time to revisit at least one of them.
China is very much in the news - recently the Most Favored Nation status. I do agree America knows very little about Asians - one of reasons given I think for the failure to win the war in Vietnam.
This was brought home to me on a trip I just took; my husband and I were visiting the National Atomic Museum in New Mexico and behind us were a group of young Asians speaking a foreign tongue. We could not tell if they were Japanese or Chinese - can someone here enlighten me as to how one can? I would love to know how their history books teach WWII and if we are hated by Japan for the atomic bomb on Hiroshima.
At an Elderhostel in Bucks County some years ago, Pearl's adopted daughter spoke to our group about her mother - wish I had taped it as it was very enlightening and she answered many questions from the group - she rarely speaks to groups so we felt privileged; however, I vaguely remember being somewhat dismayed at some of her remarks about her mother. She did say that the children in the home (you will recall that Pearl adopted - what? 14 other children from around the world) rarely saw Pearl and were raised by servants for the most part. Of course, that is understandable as Pearl was very busy writing and working at all her social endeavors - she had to continue writing constantly to pay the bills for all these children!
Am looking forward to the discussion Ginny and Alf!
Ginny
March 23, 2000 - 03:29 pm
Have we had a crash?? I've lost a post here, but BARBARA, what a marvelous site!! Thank you so much up in the heading it goes, love the Chinese characters thing!
Oh Ella, it was you, I'm so glad you'll be joining us, I have missed you!!! I remembered somebody had heard her daughter speak!! I really would like to get some experts either on her or China in this discussion and will work toward that tomorrow.
I've had a request to take the book in sections, does anybody have an objection to that approach?
Ginny
Ginny
March 23, 2000 - 04:27 pm
Barbara, WHAT fun I've had with my name in Chinese!!! And the translation! NOT going to tell you all what my name means, but they have me pegged! hahahahahaa Kinda spooky!
I was born in the Year of the Horse.
Here are my symbols: Surname first
"an." second name (Given Name)
Wanand last name (Given Name)
rui THAT was so fun!
An Wan Rui
Ella Gibbons
March 24, 2000 - 01:29 pm
I was born in the Year of the Dragon - watch out for me!!! But I have a lovely name - Kong Eling - and I don't need any remarks about being related to King Kong either!
Thanks, Barb, for that site. Now to read all the others!
We had a little Chinese woman visit our office when I was working at OSU and I gave her a hug as she had the confused and somewhat frightened look on her face that said "What am I doing here or I can't understand a word anyone is saying." I knew just how she felt - well, the next day she returned to my offie with her son and a camera. She wanted a picture of me hugging her to show her family back home - she was just so sweet! I met two young Chinese students who were working on a Ph.D. in Mathematics, and their wives (China would not let them come to the U.S.A. to study unless accompanied by their wives for fear of the young men marrying and staying here). Shall I put the picture online?
Ginny - sections are fine with me. I've started reading the book - the words - humble, obedient, quiet, resentful, envious - come to mind. What comes to your mind?
YiLi Lin
March 24, 2000 - 03:01 pm
aahh the hug thing- heheheh.
talk about life full circle, when i was a child (whew long time ago) i used to get a special privilege to take books out of the adult section of the library- probably because my sister worked there- anyway i took out the good earth and when it came time to return it i could not find that book anywhere- and i had not even read the book. in those days paying for a lost book in our family was equivalent to a weeks food- never mind the family disgrace as we NEVER lost a library book especially if our sister worked in teh library.
anyway i vowed that if i found the book i would definitely read it- o vow to the universe that you probably won't believe has haunted me over the years because i never did take that book out again and read it- TIL NOW. so thanks again folk- you've helped me gain back soem good karma in this lifetime and next.......
but the synchronicity of it all amazes me- that now after all these years i am in fact reading the book and got it from the same library.
CarolinColorado
March 24, 2000 - 04:09 pm
Our library had "Pearl Buck, A Cultural Biography" and the main book is checked out. I see a picture of her with Eleanor Roosevelt and another picture of her receiving the Nobel prize. There are 53 books by her in this system. I am going to begin reading the biography soon. Enjoying all the tidbits in this folder already. Carol
patwest
March 24, 2000 - 06:08 pm
Here's a link to my
hugger
picture. The little nun lives in a Buddhist Nunnery.. which we wandered
into by mistake... She is 10 years younger than Ella and me.
CharlieW
March 24, 2000 - 08:13 pm
Great story, YiLi
YiLi Lin
March 25, 2000 - 08:41 am
my edition of the good earth has photo insets including one of pearl buck in her senior years- what grace- what elegance...and a darn good posture.
ALF
March 25, 2000 - 10:38 am
To my fellow readers: A good day on this good earth to you all.
GINY: An Wan Rui- come on tell us what it means (so I don't have to research it myself.) I am Ting Ang Ning: born in the year of the Sheep. I love it!! Upright (not up- tight), bold , proud, full of serenity and peace. Thank you Lord, I need that this week.
YiLi: What a wonderful story you've related. I stole a book as a young girl from our library and it laid very heavily on my heart for years afterwards. I have since been absolved.
Pat: You can hug me ANYTIME.
ELLA: The year of the dragon! Our winged reptile.
I have had a horrendous week with the death of a dear friend, a nursing assignment for another friend and bad news re. yet, another friends grandson - diagnosis Cancer. Yet, I am blessed. My order from B & N has arrived. The Good Earth, Presidential Powers and Fannie Flaggs Welcome to the World Baby girl. the light is there.
Jim Olson
March 25, 2000 - 11:01 am
One of the things that Pearl Buck did that alienated her from
mainstream America during World War II was to write some short pieces
about Japanese people that countered the strong anti-Japanese
stereotypes that flooded the press at that time.
One that I recall from some research I did on High school text books
of the era was a short story about a Japanese fishing village
that was subject to annihilation by earthquakes and the village
attitude toward that threat.
It appeared only once in one school anthology- and I can't recall the
name or find any trace of it, but I remeber it quite vividly.
Ella Gibbons
March 25, 2000 - 06:20 pm
Good Evening to all!
Pat - You can't just put that picture on there without telling the whole story! Where were you? That's a nun? Could you speak her language? I'll put my Hugger Picture on soon and set the scene for China - hugging is a universal thing isn't it - one doesn't need to speak for that; and I think it's more of a "female" thing, don't you?
YiLi - It's been years since I thought of the "adult section" of the Library and wonder if it's true today that children cannot take out books there. Anyone know? Love that word "sychronicity" - did I spell it right? (can't see it down here in the post) - that's a $100 word!!!!
Alf: - You have sad news - am so sorry. But books can be a salvation; they have been for me many times. What a good crowd we have in this discussion.
Jim - Thanks for that information as I was wondering why she fell out of favor - is that the only reason? I've just never heard anything about this at all. Are you going to join the crowd and read with us?
Ella Gibbons
March 25, 2000 - 06:56 pm
This is the sweet Chinese lady who was visiting her son at an American University - I was having a "bad-hair-day" so disregard the other part of the picture.
my hugger picture
patwest
March 25, 2000 - 07:36 pm
Ella: ...... about the Hugger picture: We were in Lhasa, Tibet studying at Tibet University.. On a free afternoon we visited the Jokhang Temple. There were hundreds of pilgrims there, many traveling as far as 100 miles on foot. The Bokhor Plaza - a very busy market place was directly in front of the Temple and we wandered down one of the many side streets where my partner was looking for people pictures. We wandered into this Nunnery where we were treated to tea and cookies and shown around, visiting classrooms where young boys were learning to be monks. In addition to their religious training they were also learning English.
Jim Olson
March 26, 2000 - 05:10 am
Ella,
I think there are many reasons she fell out of favor with many groups
and perhaps some reasons she is being given another look by various groups including the literary establishment.
I am interested in exploring the general area of her life and times, the forces that shaped that era.
She was one of Joe McCarhty's targets for being too liberal- yet she was anti-communistic and out of favor with that group as well.
I would really like to explore her realtionship with Eleanor Roosevelt and anything related to that as I can see many similarities in their view of life.
Elaenor like Pearl was also concerned about her husbands actions in
interning Japanese Americans and sought to interpose to soften that action, but then that is another stroy- but part of the whole era.
I am more interested in that more general view than I am in discussing
"The Good Earth" and its literary merits or lack of same.
I would like to participate, but only on that more general level,
Ginny
March 26, 2000 - 06:03 am
Jim, I hope you will do just that, I think it would be marvelous to have all this vital and necessary information, the parallel readings, I think it would add to much to the experience, and I hope you will bring here what you found.
YiLi Lin: What a beautiful and moving story. I think that's an onen for this discussion, and I now know the discussion of this book will proceed on many meaningful levels.
You might have known, tho, that with this company assembled we would have the very best experience, we cannot ever deny the wealth of background we bring here, it's what makes us different as a book group and what makes us strong.
I love the "Hugger" pictures, Ella and Pat, they are marvelous.
Carol, your parallel reading will be invaluable!
I, too, bought the paperback with the photos because of the photos as I have several copies of the book already in different editions, but wanted a lighter, more portable one to carry about with me, and they ARE marvelous and will scan some in here, many are from her own albums. I do want to get that noble photo of her in the heading to go with all our research and think I will start with the barber one since that opens the book.
Those of you who wish, please pursue whichever angle appeals most to you in this, please write Dr. Conn if you like and invite him in here or ask if we might ask him some questions. Please write the Pearl Buck Foundation if you like and see if they would be willing to discuss her or her works. It might help if you indicated here you were willing to try and for which expert or person.
Let's try to make this one the very best since the author is obviously a person of great accomplishment.
Ginny
Ginny
March 26, 2000 - 06:11 am
Andrea, our thoughts go out to you in your horrible set of circimstances and we're pulling for you and grateful for your presence whenever you appear. Don't push yourself, we're here for you if you need us, tho!
Love
Ginny
Jim Olson
March 26, 2000 - 01:32 pm
Ginny,
I guess I for one would not prefer to deal with the experts as sources
but to muck around on my own looking at whatever more or less primary sources I can find that impinge on her life and times and attitudes toward her and her works at the time they were popular.
I will share anything I find.
ALF
March 26, 2000 - 02:05 pm
GINNY et. AL: My love and appreciation for your kind words. Things(please God) are beginning to settle down and I will be returning home tomorrow. I started my book and it has been a God send to me this week. 9 1/2 hrs. arguing in an emergency room took its toll on my book to say nothing of my patience. Sometimes it is GOOD to have the expertise in dealing with physicians and sometimes it is NOT. Thank the good Lord, this turned out for the better and the radiologist has called me twice since. Anyway-- Pearl Buck is in tow and I can't wait to sit at my own 'puter that is a bit easier to navigate on. Bless you one and all. I am getting excited to start.
Andrea
YiLi Lin
March 26, 2000 - 04:07 pm
would like to learn more about pearl buck and eleanor roosevelt too. spent today at the buddhist monastery- friends came with me to help celebrate my birthday weekend, the weather was wonderful and i thought it a very supportive gesture for people to accept and experience something considered "different". came home and read another chapter of good earth and have decided this is one of those books that i don't want to see the film version. i like the pictures in my own mind.
Ginny
March 26, 2000 - 07:38 pm
Happy Happy Birthday, YiLi Lin!!!
Ginny
GingerWright
March 26, 2000 - 08:43 pm
Happy Birthday YiLi Lin
Ginger
Barbara St. Aubrey
March 26, 2000 - 11:56 pm
As we meet the Ying Yang orb of day
lucky we chance the thoughts of Laotze.
The light of great wisdom is really at play
When our evening of childhood now covered in gray
Peaks friendship and wishes in words so cliché.
Set to music, the tune we delight and convey
Our smiles and Best wishes for a Happy Birthday.
Flourish and trumpets Yili Lin in plié,
but firstly we urge, please dance the merrengue.
patwest
March 27, 2000 - 04:04 am
Happy Birthday.... YiLi Lin ...
YiLi Lin
March 27, 2000 - 09:01 am
Wow- thank you all and Barbara such amazing poetry.
So is it April 1st yet!!!!!!
betty gregory
March 28, 2000 - 12:11 am
Both book and biography are on the way, so I hope to begin reading soon. In the meantime, I'm curious about something. Two of you have talked about hugs and someone else wondered if hugging had a "universal" quality. I do know that there are marked differences among cultures in the realm of personal space. If memory serves, Anglo and Mexican-American people have similar relaxed zones of personal body space---such as standing in line at a movie theater. African-Americans, on the other hand, have a much more defined and larger area needed around one's body for comfort. (Which, when I learned this, answered a years-long question I had about a friend who tolerated my hugs, but just.) My memory is sketchier on required body space for people of Asian descent. I vaguely remember that it is not as relaxed as Anglo-Americans.
betty gregory
March 28, 2000 - 12:33 am
On personal body space---people from England, in comparison to Anglo-Americans, have a very pronounced area of personal space needed for comfort. I wonder if this decreases as economic level decreases. It would be easier to fling my arms around Eliza Doolittle than some duke or baroness.
ALF
March 28, 2000 - 07:36 am
Personally, I have always believed it is an environmental thing- an issue that must be taught at an early age. One needs to feel secure, enveloped, cacooned -in a sense. I have long believed many people need to coached, enlightened and taught how to hug and that hugging is acceptable. I am not so naive to believe that everyone accepts hugs and affection, but I sure do try my best to "show them the way."
ALF
March 28, 2000 - 07:47 am
I am already half way thru this book and have made numerous notes. I can't wait to begin? Rereading the introduction we're told that well into the 1960's , this novel played a great role in shaping western attitudes toward China. Do you think that was Ms. Bucks intent to show, subtely, the power of a Chinese woman? She wanted to emulate the Dowager Empress Cixi (Tz'u-hsi), who progressed from concubine, to imperial authority and on to being regent authority.
CarolinColorado
March 28, 2000 - 02:39 pm
I read the notes about having personal space and can tell you that from studies - Scandinavians need more personal space than any other culture. I can attest to that fact. Waling through the Chinatown section in San Francisco in March, I could see that the Chinese (in that area) had a great tolerance for touching & pushing against strangers - they joustled with each other in choosing vegetables and herbs. The stores were just so crammed with people one could not even enter. But - having grown up & visiting another Chinatown in a smaller city quite often, I don't remember the absolute crush of humanity; perhaps it is a sign of just the overpopulation of the San Francisco area and the Chinese really don't want to live in the condensed way of life.
I will get to our book soon. Was surprised to learn that Pearl did not really like the last name of Buck - and that she was certainly not as religious as her parents. The parents lost three children/babies in China. Typhoid for one. What a horrible existence for her mother. Her father just went on with his daily preaching. Carol
CharlieW
March 28, 2000 - 02:52 pm
Hmmmmm, Carol. Reminds me of The Poisonwood Bible
Barbara St. Aubrey
March 28, 2000 - 10:12 pm
USA or China I think the way of life during that time in history was hard on all mothers. My grandmother birthed 12 babies of which only 3 lived into adulthood. Various illnesses including typhoid took some of the babies. One 2 year old fell out of the chair he was tied to (no highchairs) out the window to his death and another, an underweight baby, was wrapped in cotton batting and kept warm on the back of the wood burning stove, as was the way, and the baby sufficated. All this in the early part of the 20th century!
Pearl sure does allude to her father, as all the Christian missionaries, as somewhat fanatic or obessed with their own views about who was God and where God was and how God ought to be worshiped with little study or understanding of the Chinese ancient beliefs.
Carol didn't you love the story of the Chinese woman putting the leaflet, with the picture of Jesus on the cross, to good use as only they could understand what the leaflet was all about.
CarolinColorado
March 29, 2000 - 05:23 am
Charlie: I don't know the book you mentioned. It gives me the shivers to see poison and bible in the title. Evil and goodness. Also, I am trying to find my slip of paper with instructions on typing italics.
Barbara: It sounds as though you have a "book" in your background story. You are right about the high mortality rate of children. I have a habit of searching old cemetaries and in the little mountain towns there are some sad family histories.
YiLi Lin
March 29, 2000 - 09:03 am
?????Barbara
I recall the first time I entered the room and gave a brief but definite hug with a typical americanized "airkiss" in greeting to a husband and wife of high standing in the chinese-asian community. between them passed that look of both shock and then the usual grin that says, we really like this woman (me) but boy she certainly does not know the rules- then they looked around to the others and spoke in chinese something that made everyone else relax.
although i knew something was up i had translated my viewpoint which said in effect- this is me and with me comes a lot of things- hugs on greeting, talking back to "men" when i disagree, walking side by side etc. over the years the me has had an interesting impact on our friendship.
now when walking in the street the same woman will sometimes hold on to my arm and get a look and posture of almost defiant freedom as we walk and shop in the community.
the best is recently that couple's youngest son finally got here from china and upon great introduction i was asked to "hug" him - the hug now awarded a special status among us.
now my other friend has zero tolerance for anay eating or drinking (even from a water bottle) in the street.
ALF
March 29, 2000 - 12:24 pm
YiLiLin: What a warm stroy. You were asked to HUG him. by embracing them-- you have shown them the way. Good, affectionate you..
Ella Gibbons
March 29, 2000 - 02:09 pm
Yili Lin: Loved this - over the years the me has had an interesting impact on our friendship
You should try "MYSELF" and "I" and see what happens!
Barbara, what stories! Mercy! Before vaccinations burst upon the scene, many young children died of all the childhood diseases. I well remember what a relief when whole families lined up to get the polio vaccine. I'm sure many of you remember that!
betty gregory
March 29, 2000 - 11:56 pm
YiLiLin----please tell more to help me understand. Did you breach some cultural personal space by hugging? Your American greeting produced some shock but ultimately was acceptable because.....?? I know the subject of acculturation is a complex one and differs even among Asian and Asian-American families. Please tell me what you know of Chinese people in China on the issue of hugging.
Ginny
March 30, 2000 - 03:06 am
YiLi Lin, you know what? I would, too, like to hear more about you. In our early days here in the Books we would use this "down time" before a book to "tell a little bit about ourselves," and we stopped that and here we are discussing China and Chinese books with obviously somebody who knows a great deal!!!!!
How dumb we all are!!!!!
Like for instance, the name of our protagonist in THE GOOD EARTH, Wang Lung. Now, Wang is his family name, right? So that would be like saying Anderson Ginny? So everytime we see that we are actually seeing "Anderson Ginny got up and brushed her teeth?"
So the family there is so important? Sort of the house of Wang?
And what would his friends call him? Lung?
I hope this does not embarrass you, but you are such an ASSET in so many ways, I hate not to take advantage of this golden opportunity?
But certainly if you would rather not we can understand.
And that goes for anybody here, we are a meeting of the minds but we are also as we have found out in our face to face meetings real people who can visit and call and meet? And so we do care about each other here, there's a LOT going on here in our book discussions!
I know, for instance, that Pat Westerdale has been to China, anybody else?
I really would like to understand, also, that idea about not eating on the street???
Ginny
YiLi Lin
March 30, 2000 - 10:59 am
am not able to tell you about hugging throughout china- but in the case i explained yes that first hug was a MAJOR breach not so much personal space but protocol- everything from touch, to levels of formality and hierarchy. in truth i should have put my eyes down and bowed to the man (not just man but esteemed and of high rank in the community) and cordially taken the cue of how his wife wished to greet me and respond as a mirror image. (interesting to some of you- the man's wife is always ALWAYS referred to as Mrs. ..., never with her given name- and she self identifies only as Mrs....)
now this is not a woman's lib thing- it is part of who she is- FIRST WIFE so to speak, always and ever MRs...., her standing in teh community, her role, and before culture shock in america- her revised self identity.
as china opens to the west and more and more commerce takes place you often find chinese more tolerant and using western ways in business dealings and superficial social events. many chinese and chinese-americans of one to two generations though still adhere to customs- most customs are family traditions- and since chinese society developed around clans, you will find many families- members now running in the hundreds of thousands- who follow the same customs. we as outsiders see this as an all encompassing "chinese culture" .
americans remain outsiders- the best experience in my mind woudl be a visit to china to visit or be accompanied by chinese friends, in fact a visit to your local chinatown with a chinese friend (i mean friend not someone you just acquaint for the occasion) would open up an amazing new opportunity.
A good companion read is China Men i think the author is maxine hong kingston.
so how do i get away with it? a story way too long to tell but perhaps in pieces-
betty gregory
March 30, 2000 - 05:42 pm
Thank you, YiLiLin, what you wrote fits in well with the first few chapters of the biography. So, custom, protocol and hierarchy within the extended family, the clan, is key. I didn't assume you knew personnally about practices within China; from your posts, I can't tell where you grew up, maybe here, maybe France.
Ella Gibbons
March 31, 2000 - 07:13 am
Thanks YiliLin - do tell us more, you can tell it in pieces. We would all love to hear your story and learn more about Chinese culture as it used to be and as it is today. As seniors we have lived through many changes in our country and the world. We remember Chairman Mao and the Tienenman (sp?) Square revolt and many other events - and President Nixon's visit to China (those events are not in order); but we were having chaos in America at the same time.
We would love to hear more from you.
betty gregory
March 31, 2000 - 09:23 am
I need to be more specific. When you know one characteristic about a person, it's easy to forget that each person is complex and has more characteristics than that one. In multi-cultural studies, you learn that this happens frequently to minority groups. Example---asking a Black person, "What do Black people think about this?" The answer is usually, "I don't know," meaning that he doesn't know what all those different people think. A few years ago, someone gave my phone number to a woman and handed me a piece a paper with her number----so pleased that she had hooked us up----why? Because we both used canes and had a difficult time getting around. "But what interests do we have in common? Politics? Music? Books?" Didn't know.
Knowing someone's name doesn't tell us background, interests, history. Someone with an Asian-looking name could have been born in Detroit, her parents born in Atlanta, grandparents in Portland. Even knowing Pearl Buck's name doesn't tell us where she grew up.
YiLi Lin
March 31, 2000 - 10:38 am
excellent point betty-
and in reading about other cultures or posting cross cultural experiences i think it is important to see the individual character (and experience) as well as the cultural environment. Wang Lung, Lin Kong (Waiting) etc. are individual characters who have personal experiences within (or outside of) a cultural box. Whether Chinese- Chinese-American or American we all have lives shaped by history(histories) our personal history and the collective history.
When I speak of "things Chinese" I speak from the personal, I can recount personal histories and experiences of individuals, some of these histories are rooted in a collective experience and some are utilitarian actions- things that make life work for the individual. But in literature as well as sociology and history we often get glimpses of the collective through the acts of individuals and as we all know, some people are more influenced by societal expectations than others- so the reverse, groups who develop personal histories within the culture.
So I've been reading up a storm here and you will see me post perhaps a number of "knee kickers" as the characters behave in particular ways-
It's tomorrow, It's tomorrow.....yeah
Ginny
April 1, 2000 - 02:31 am
Welcome to the Opening Day of our discussion of The Good Earth!
I don't know about you, but I was totally blown away by this book. We have had a reqest to take the discussion (read as far as you want on your own) of it slow so that some people might catch up, and so I would like to begin just this first week with a few thoughts on the first 75 pages, an enjoyable morning's read, in which Wang Lung takes a wife, prospers, starts a family and declines. I believe the entire themes and issues in the book are pretty much encompassed in these few pages.
I am personally overcome with all the issues raised, the themes swirling around, I know you all will have lots of things to say, and it's hard, isn't it, even to CHOOSE where to begin, there are so many aspects covered in the first few pages: the place of religion/ religious beliefs, the status of women, the earth itself, moral issues, the writing style, the characterization: there is SO much vying for the number one spot.
I think until we find out where YOU want to start I would like to address the third point of interest in the heading, and that is the
timlessness of the book?
I got up with a start today thinking that of all the books of that time, this one seems fresh as a new day? Sinclair Lewis is dated by the very usage (I love Sinclair Lewis) of the vernacular. "Swell," for instance, is a phrase not used much any more. Sometimes when you read a book you have to overcome the writing and vocabulary.
Did you find yourself coming up short ONCE in the book? Saying oh this thing was written a long time ago, this is not germaine today?
Despite the fact that we are "living" vicariously in a place and culture I personally have never visited, I felt I understood the characters and what drove them. In fact, when O-Lan who was mostly silent finally did speak at length it was to express her determination to appear before the Old Mistress dressed to the hilt with her first born son! No longer a slave, no longer beholden, a triumph?
Have you felt that way, ever? I have. I think that's a universal feeling, maybe a basic one, I don't know, I certainly have never been a slave.
I planned the same type of return for years, sort of bemusedly, not with the single minded intensity that O-Lan did (I believe she must have been awfully mistreated to wake fending off imaginary blows, don't you think?) but when my "day" came I found to my amusement that the hotel/resort in question had turned into an Ashram so my dreams of triumphant sweeping into the lobby, I guess, are just that, pipe dreams.
Another element begins to creep into the theme of the book, too, and that is that Wang Lung, I think, is, (and here I'm not agreeing with his relatives and neighbors: what a LOT in this book!!!), expanding for the wrong reasons: he was shamed by the gatekeeper and wishes to aquire some of the Big House's land. Sometimes it seems that the rigors of poverty seem to put a brand on the soul, and no matter where else the person might go and how prosperous he might be, his memory of these events never leaves him and colors every waking moment. That's how I see Wang Lung, and O-Lan is not far behind, having seen people eat corncobs, so she saves them prudently.
I'm saying that I see revenge coloring a lot of Wang Lung's early motivations, and land aquisitions. I wonder if, though, and I just thought of this, that's the reason for EVERY land aquisition? I bet Barbara can fill us in on this subject!
Maybe this book has even more revelance than I thought!
What issues seem most prominent to you?
(Are you surprised at the power of this book?)
Ginny
ALF
April 1, 2000 - 09:14 am
Good morning everyone. In between my "honey-hugs" I will attempt to log on and follow. I am tickled pink that we are fortunate enough to have YiLiLin with us. I believe she will lend a great deal of prospective to our discussion.
It was Wang Lung's marriage day!!! The beginning of our novel and Wang's beginning!!! We feel Wang's excitement as he awakens (dawn of a new day) and focuses on his new beginning. His curtains , PUSHED aside, the tattered paper torn aside, he feels the "good omen" -- the fields will receive rain soon for fruition.. He feels that "Heaven had chosen him this day to wish him well." He is so full of hope and great expectation knowing that soon he and the old man will rest. The woman is coming to the house & his responsibilities will be lessened. He muses on the grandSONS to come . Freshly bathed, donned in his feast robe, he proceeds to get his "shave" and marketing done as he reflects on the mounting sun, the "budding" heads of the crops and The Good Earth.
At this point I started taking note of the references used by our author to make her point re. the title and I continued with this throughout the entire read. Wang IS the earth, he is of the earth- it is his mantra, his entire BEING. We feel his self importance UNTIL he ventures out, away from his farm land. From this point on we witness his destruction as his inferiority peaks through. He feels himself subordinate, lower in rank, after all, he thinks, he is only a simple farmer! This pretty much sets the tone of the novel here to me. Even the iron studded, black CLOSED gate with the lions standing guard intimidate him & he retreats. Feeling exonerated of his inferiority when he was called "teacher" he once again proceeds to the keeper of the gate. Ohhhh! How creepy does he sound- with three long black hairs hanging from the mole on his left cheek? I felt sorry for Wang as he apologizes and fumbles along.
Ginny is so right! Which issue do we talk about first? The earth representing ALL that Wang is? His anger? I felt his anger was the cause of many on his self-inflicted difficulties, throughout the book. Money? FEAR!!! These characters are riddled with fear and apprehension. I would like to discuss these few themes as we proceed.
I reread the pages of our opium smoking mistress. Yililin's explanation of being the "MRS" clarified a great deal.
Ella Gibbons
April 1, 2000 - 09:27 am
Great questions, Ginny. - you've given us much to think about and discuss.
Oh, I agree - this book holds as much appeal for me as it did when I first read it many years ago. It's a book one can have great affection for and understand, as it deals with universal passions, such as the love of the earth, ambition, greed, love of children, and on and on. The marvelous characterizations are timeless and as you have said it could have been written last month and feel as modern today as it did in 1931.
Even though the book deals with a country and its people that are not too familiar to most of us, we have compassion and understanding for the characters that people the book, due to the portrayal of their reactions to birth, death, suffering, etc.
PB expanded this book from an article she had written entitled he Revolutionist for an Asian magazine and intended to title the book "Wang Lung" - fortunately it was changed somewhere along the way . You asked about the various themes in the book and certainly the one in the first few pages is the earth itself :
The earth lay rich and dark and fell apart lightly under the points of their hoes
turning this earth of theirs over and over in the sun
in the fields the wheat seed sprouted and pushed spears of delicate green above the wet brown earth
It is a good thing to buy land. It is better certainly than putting money into a mud wall
the land was his! …..a long square of heavy black clay
I understand this love of the earth. I cannot wait until the weather gets warm enough to get down on my knees ( I regret that these days I must use a pad to kneel on, the bones have hardened and are quick to ache) and get my hands in the dirt - the good-smelling, rich, lovely dirt - and the first plantings are such a delight. I have already made my first pilgrimaage "back to the earth" and planted early flowers. Wonderful feeling.
Ginny, this certainly is one of the many, many themes of the book - the earth itself. But you think Wang Lung bought the land for revenge? For what? In what way had he been wronged by those that lived in the House of Hwant? Perhaps I'm not reading too critically - it seemed to me that it was for a number of reasons - ambition, perhaps to show off a bit, envy of the wealthy. But you'll have to explain the revenge to me.
One question: this custom of sprinkling the tea leaves on top of the water, when it would seem to me that pouring boiling water over the leaves would give a much better and longer lasting taste. Any ideas?
YiLi Lin
April 1, 2000 - 10:26 am
literature by its nature is timeless and i believe that good works are good because they recreate timeless and universal themes. so i do not see this work as dated.
the most outstanding feature for me and it did crop up in the first 75 pages is the excellent portrayal of the examined and unexamined life- out glimpse is not only through innner dialogue but in early actions.
to a buddhist the earth represents stability- at that is (or is not
) in a lifetime on planet earth is dependent on earth including its gravitational pull though not expressed as stuff. and i can understand a Wang Lung desiring to possess this earth for no other reason that own it- own it early on to simply be a part of it. O-Lan early on to me represents a force that understands no one owns any thing.
am not sure i saw in o-lans nature the return to the House of Hwang for revenge or one upmanship- in a way her visit is to be expected, good experience or bad it was her place to return to and like in some of our families the child, sister, brother returns (sadly often for the last time) to pay a filial duty and then move on. O-Lan announced the fact of her self to Hwang, shed it and moved on. The scene of hiding the child and calling it ugly out loud is very REAL and i have observed that kind of practice recently- in some families the practice of "tricking the gods" is used for material possessions as well. this comes i believe from the confuscian traditions passed down to modern families.
Barbara St. Aubrey
April 2, 2000 - 01:52 am
Well I have much to read to catch up - had a week of Real Estate-- you would have thought it was a fire sale. Funny over the years I've noticed it is the men that want the large lots, they would prefer at least 5 acres but that puts them out and away from the conveniences of town, which tickles them pink but puts a long dour face on the woman. Often the woman's eyes turn pleading toward me to help explain. Whew then the stepping carfully begins as I try to expain each to the other by using their words repeating again so the other one will hear.
Seldom do the woman care about the yard as long as it is large enough for a swing set. They are looking at the rooms and if there is a window in Kitchen and baths and how near or far their bedroom is from the childrens. Even couples without children or singles-- the woman look at the kitchen first and than the living room for ambiance and than the master bath for space and luxuary and than closets and finally the other rooms. They could care less about looking at the furnace or Hot water heater which is the first things the men want to examine followed by the garage and the walking or gazing over the yard from the patio.
Now woman that are buying land are usually into horses rather than cattle and they sure do pick up the dirt to see if will squeeze or grain.
Ginny
April 2, 2000 - 07:41 am
Barbara, how interesting!! Great thoughts, Everybody!! I'm in a lighning storm and have to get off, and want to throw out these two thoughts in a big hurry:
IS there a difference in this book between the male and female perspective and whose is the stronger and whose is right in the end?
Barbara seems to see a difference in today's men/ women thing. I know it was true in my case, the Real Estate Agent had said, "some grapes" on the property, what does that mean to you? We had about three or four vines in our own little plot where we lived at the time, SOME grapes to me meant three or four, but my husband knew what was there and who worked it and what it brought in and had gone to see it. I only saw the kitchen and the great room and laughed at the difference in it and where we lived at the time and the drive up. I didn't KNOW there were 6 acres of Concord grapes!!!!!!!! Not for months!!!!!
Let me ask you this one: if you did NOT know this book had won the Pulitzer and was part of the reason for the Nobel Prize. If you did NOT know this, would you feel any differently about it? Do you find yourself approaching it with respect, nay, awe and trembling in case you MISS something that somebody has documented in the last 60 years, some important THING that will show us all to be not as UP as we should be? Are YOU, in fact, approaching it timidly or fearfully?
Ginny
ALF
April 2, 2000 - 08:47 am
Ginny: Excellent question. You are correct . I DO personally approach this Nobel winner read in awe. As you've pointed out it is timeless and that encourages reverence in itself. I am not sure-- NO I know-- that i never would have even considered this novel had it not been for this discussion. After some research I ask myslef WHY have I not read MORE timeless classics in my short life.
As far as a difference in the male and female perspective WHAT in this life does NOT have that slant?
I disagree with you YiLi. I see Olans return to the old mistress as an exhibition of betterment.
Malryn (Mal)
April 2, 2000 - 10:19 am
Hi, everybody. I'll be joining you as soon as the book as dear friend is sending to me comes.
I read The Good Earth when I was a kid. I see no reason why one should approach the work of a Nobel Prize winner in any different sort of way from the way he or she would read anything else. Saul Bellow is one of my favorite writers, and the book that finally decided the committee to award him the Nobel Prize is one of his lesser works, in my opinion.
I had dinner with a Nobel Prize winning physicist once at a small dinner party. He was just another guy, (if very fliratious), who knew a lot about physics!
Mal
patwest
April 2, 2000 - 11:12 am
Yes, I look at this book differently than another.. I just hope you all will make me aware of what I might miss...
betty gregory
April 2, 2000 - 11:52 am
I love how I started this reading. I read Peter Conn's biography of Pearl Buck up to 1932 events so I would "know" her up to the 1931 publishing date of Good Earth. Then, accidently, I caught the epic movie (can't remember exact name---saw it ten minutes after it started) The Last Emporer?, crowned at 3 years old, the unfolding of political and military events from his birth to his death. The movie gave me images to match the biographer's words. THEN I started the book. I feel like I can "see" her places and people.
I had a different experience knowing ahead of time how her work was received. Knowing that so many critics found her work unworthy of a Nobel prize---a "commercial" author, a "young people's" author, not much complexity in her writing style. THAT'S what I've had to beat back as I started to read. And, yes, I find the writing style wanting....not in the same category with great writers. However, however, I am absolutely taken in, transported, engaged in the content, the simple truth of the story. How rare it is to care this deeply for a character almost from page one. And yes, oh yes, this story is at once our story. Now, how in the world did she do that. These completely foreign customs do not get in our way of connecting to this family. I could be reading about the dust bowl in Oklahoma or the migrant farm workers in California. Oh, hell, I just moved from tiny village to 3rd largest city in the country and (are we there in the story yet?), she struck chords in me about the small town vs. large town transition. I don't care anymore that the language could be 7th grade level. Her story reaches far beyond that.
YiLi Lin
April 2, 2000 - 12:09 pm
reading the work of a nobel prize winner does not change my impressions of the work or the new world opened to me as a result of the work. sounds corny but i value our discussion here more than the fact that the author won a prize for it.
CharlieW
April 2, 2000 - 03:43 pm
Just started the book today, so still catching up, but wanted to jump in to say two or three things quickly:
(1) On reading this as
Nobel Prize Winner - I approach it (never having read it) not with awe but with curiosity. My impression as to why she won a Nobel and Pulitzer is that she was in a unique position to offer up a realistic perspective of China and its people and she did it in an impressively
large body of work.
(2) I was immediately struck by this from the second page: "The kitchen was made of earthen bricks as the house was, great squares of earth dug from their own fields, and thatched with straw from their own wheat." What an organic picture of the dwelling evolving up out of the very earth on which it sits.
(3)Intimations of social change: Not only is the momentous change about to take place in the life of Wang Lung, but there appear to be other changes taking place: "The new fashion is to take off the braid." I believe this was a very substantial change in Chinese society at that time. "He saw wiith an instant's disappointment that her feet were not bound." - Also an indication that change was (if you'll pardon-the-expression) afoot.
CharlieW
April 2, 2000 - 05:08 pm
IN THE NEWS
Red Star Over China by Edgar Snow has been in print ever since it was published shortly afetr Mao told his story to Snow in 1936. The first "Westerner" to interview Mao. His wife (whose book
My China Years: A Memoir) (out-of-print)is referenced in the bibliography of the WSP Edition, was recently detained by Chinese authorities as she tried to meet with a dissident elderly woman professor who has been agitating the government since her son was killed at Tianamen.
CharlieW
April 2, 2000 - 05:41 pm
And then again in Chapter 2: "So would also their house, some time, return into earth, their bodies also.". What could be more universal amd timeless than the connection she is intent on making between the life of man and what she means to call the (good)earth?
betty gregory
April 2, 2000 - 06:01 pm
Couldn't help wondering if Margaret Mitchell was moved by 1931's The Good Earth before writing/completing Gone with the Wind of 1936. The value of land as everything, connected with who you are, what you have left if all else is lost, etc.
betty gregory
April 2, 2000 - 06:12 pm
On ginny's question regarding status of women. I keep having to remind myself that this was published in 1931. Pearl Buck may have been one of the first writers to drive home the point (relentlessly) of secret strength of women, the unacknowledged "woman behind the man."
Barbara St. Aubrey
April 2, 2000 - 08:55 pm
Chinese civilization has been considered one of the least favorable toward women, yet their problems are common from
culture to culture. A number of Chinese women were able to articulate their plight in poems that became classics.
Fu Hsüan: Woman (3rd C.)
Here the theme of distance is used to emphasize the emotional isolation that is women's lot.- How sad it is to be a woman!
Nothing on earth is held so cheap.
Boys stand leaning at the door
Like Gods fallen out of Heaven.
Their hearts brave the Four Oceans,
The wind and dust of a thousand miles.
No one is glad when a girl is born:
By her the family sets no store.
Then she grows up, she hides in her room
Afraid to look a man in the face.
No one cries when she leaves her home--
Sudden as clouds when the rain stops.
She bows her head and composes her face,
Her teeth are pressed on her red lips:
She bows and kneels countless times.
She must humble herself even to the servants.
His love is distant as the stars in Heaven,
Yet the sunflower bends toward the sun.
Their hearts more sundered than water and fire--
A hundred evils are heaped upon her.
Her face will follow the years' changes:
Her lord will find new pleasures.
They that were once like substance and shadow
Are now as far as Hu from Ch'in.
Yet Hu and Ch'in shall sooner meet
Than they whose parting is like Ts'an and Ch'en.
Barbara St. Aubrey
April 2, 2000 - 09:34 pm
Seventeen centuries later we have the 1969 Chinese immigrant from Malaysia who studied at Brandeis, Shirley Geok-Lin Lim, writing--
"It has to do with my growing up in a traditional Chinese society--I was a girl in a family if eight boys, so I was very precious to my father, which was rare, because in Traditional Chinese societies, as you may know, girls are not valued. I grew up knowing that I was one of the fortunate who were wanted and loved...China in a country with over a billion people. Its environment has been degraded completely by overpopulation. One of the horrible consequesces of this one-child policy is female infanticide...When I read this I was so outraged, so angry, that I wrote this poem. And to control my anger, I wrote it in the strictest form I could think of--a pantoun, which features a great deal of repetition. The pantoun has often been used for comic purposes because of the repetition and the structure. But I realized I could use the form to control my anger...disciplined focus; you can't allow things to spill over. You have to be very focused, like a laser that produces a powerful intensity...
First let me just tell you that one of the favorite methods of killing these little baby girls is to turn their faces over in soot. Soot is readily available in peasant homes, and you don't have to reuse it. You can throw it out with the infant."
Pantown for Chinese Woman- "At present, the phenomena of butchering, drowning
and leaving to die female infants have been very serious."
(The People's Daily, Peking, March 3rd 1983)
They say a child with two mouths in no good.
In the slippery wet, a hollow space,
Smooth, gumming, echoing wide for food.
No wonder my man is not here at his place.
In the slippery wet, a hollow space,
A slit narrowly sheathed within its hood.
No wonder my man is not here at his place:
He is digging for the dragon jar of soot.
That slit narrowly sheathed within its hood!
His mother, squatting, caughs by the fire's blaze
While he digs for the dragon jar of soot.
We have saved for a hundred days.
His mother, squatting, caughs by the fire's blaze.
The child kicks against me mewing like a flute.
We have saved ashes for a hundred days.
Knowing, if the time came, that we would.
The child kicks against me crying like a flute
Through its two weak mouths. His mother prays
Knowing when the time comes that we would,
For broken clay is never set in glaze.
Through her two weak mouths his mother prays.
She will not pluck the rooster nor serve its blood,
For broken clay is never set in glaze:
Women are made of river sand and wood.
She will not pluck the rooster nor serve its blood.
My husband frowns, pretending in his haste
Women are made of river sand and wood.
Milk soaks the bedding. I cannot bear the waste.
My husband frowns, pretending in his haste.
Oh clean the girl, dress her in ashy soot!
Milk soaks our bedding, I cannot bear the waste.
they say a child with two mouths is not good.
You may have contained the anger, but not the sadness.
I hope it's clear that the anger is not against men. The mother-in-law herself participates in the deed. The anger is at an age-old structure that refuses to change. I hope the poem is one more fist beating down that wall.
The line
The child kicks against me mewing like a flute. was my undoing-- it was then that a real baby, my remembering the soft and rythmic breathing of an infant, was going to be put to death by her parents. Because she is a girl or not, the baby was real not an it, a real kicking infant.
Barbara St. Aubrey
April 2, 2000 - 10:02 pm
The symbolic meaning of a rooster in East Asia is it guards the bridge leading to the abode of the gods. The tenth sign of the Chinese zodiac, he is not eaten. The redish rooster protects against fire; the white drives off demons. The rooster is considered no only brave but also kind-hearted, calling the hens to share the feed, and reliable with his wake-up summons. In Chines homonymic symbolism, the rooster with his crowing stands for merit and fame. Civil servants were given a rooster with a large comb. A rooster with chicks symbolized a father's providing for his children, or, more narrowly, his sons.
In the classic theory, menstrual blood is one of the two components along with sperm from which new life comes about. Yet it is considered 'impure' by many peoples and charged with negative power, so the mestruating women are often separated from the community. "Pure blood," was the symbol of unfaltering vitality. Ancient Chinese legends tell of painted dragons who actually took off in flight when ther eyes were painted in with blood.
The dragon, in the orient, is a beneficent, celestial power; wisdom; strength; hidden knowledge; the power of the life-giving waters; it is the emblem of the Emperor as Son of Heaven and, following him, the wise and noble man. The divine spirit of change; the divine power of change and transformation; the rhythms of Nature; the law of becoming; the sun; light and life; the Heavens; sovereignty: the masculine yang power.
In the poem neither woman is menstrating, one because of age, the other having 100 days ago birthed a child therefore, they are included with the man in a community of three, preparing the infant's death. The rooster's blood would be "Pure Blood" and therefore symbolic of the child no longer filled with 'unfaltering vitality.'
For Chinese three represents Sanctity; the auspicious number, the first odd, yang number; three gives rise to all numbers as, one gave rise to two and two gave rise to three; the great Triad of Heaven-Man-Earth.
And four, counting the infant, is the number of the Earth, symbolized by the square. There are four streams of immortality. Four is an even, yin mumber. The four celestial gurardians of Li, with the pagoda; Ma, with the sward; Cho, with two swards; Wen, with a spiked club; There are four spiritually endowed, or Sacred, creatures; the Dragon, Phoenix, Ky-lin or Unicorn, and Tortoise - the
Four Cardinal Points
Ella Gibbons
April 3, 2000 - 08:25 am
Barbara, how very sad. I knew of the one-child plan in China but didn't knew they were killing the females - supposedly if you have a second child it is not given the opportunity of free education. The government is trying to find ways of curtailing the overpopulation, but this is a very sad way to proceed.
I wanted to comment on your difference in the male and female view of buying a house - very true!
However, I see little comparison with that aspect of the male/female view to Wang Lung and O-lan. Their wants and needs are so basic, so earthy; for example when the family is starving and their only hope of eating anything is of killing their ox, Wang Lung cannot do it - he sees the ox as their only hope of the future; whereas O-lan, ever the practical one with a mother's heart, does not hesitate to slit the ox's throat and feed her children.
Again, in another instance, the silent O-lan does not object to her child stealing food exclamining the child's belly must be filled somehow; whereas the father punishes the child.
The roles of male/female in this book are of another culture - one we do not understand in the western world. Pearl Buck lived in the North of China after her marriage and felt such anger about the plight of the peasants and the abuse and oppression they suffered. Having no knowledge of this culture, we can make no comparisons to the male/female role in our country.
O-lan speaks little, yet when she does I can understand her attitudes - that of a mother is universal, as is so much in this book.
CarolinColorado
April 3, 2000 - 12:39 pm
I'm at page 52. At the same time, the news on television is giving us Alerts on the latest in the Gonzolez boy's status. I can only wonder if the relatives in Miami would be as adamant about keeping a female child. Well, that has nothing to do with the book.
It is interesting to me that O-lan has such great survival skills. She adapts so quickly to becoming a wife in a lower social caste and has a wonderful work ethic. At least my family background upholds a person's work ethic in the highest regard and I would notice that part of her lifestyle. Her quiet ways are part of a learning process in coping with so many changes and suddenly living with two men in the household. Perhaps she had to be silent in her previous life to keep from being beaten and will be changing as the story transpires. Carol
betty gregory
April 3, 2000 - 01:46 pm
I depend on you, Barbara, to keep us up on the symbols and layered meanings, especially for this culture...maybe even with a thought to the period of time. Also a question...since we know that language use/customs did change drastically across geographic miles (separate clans? political groups?), I wonder if importance of symbols changed as well. City dwellers paying less attention to gods/symbols for weather, for example.
Buck's inclusion of the importance of the color red is so rich, vivid...50 red eggs for the first son, etc.
The poems are so powerful, Barbara, I struggle with what to say. Each time I get back to this subject, I have to fight off a sinking feeling of depression. The killing (and mutilating) of girls is not just a one-country problem. And not a problem of the past. I don't want to go look up the statistics. Couldn't we just leave that whole (current) problem to the side and somehow focus on Buck's story and the specific horror of the time....and (I'm reaching) maybe readers' reactions at the time. That doesn't make a lot of sense, what I just wrote, so maybe we can monitor ourselves to keep from pulling the energy of the discussion in that direction for too long. This is a similar category for me, Barbara, as the "why violence" in general is for you. (...duh...maybe it's the same category.) It confounds me, depresses me, makes me feel powerless and pounded down.
Ella, I think we do know enough about our country's history of treatment of women and are far enough in the learning stage of discovering other countries' treatment of women to make comparisons. In my calculations so far, no countries are off the hook. We all look pretty bad. (My brain drives me crazy sometimes. I get to thinking about the cost of unused wisdom or backlashes or the extreme (political) "religious" right and how little time we give to speaking up against it. Every once and a while, I'm so disheartened with my own culture because we work so hard at "knowing" then let things slide again. Isn't that worse in some ways than being "innocent" and uninformed?) That any of this should be a struggle is what really puzzles me.
Anyway, Ella, on a more positive note, I think of our claiming to know what's going on with women (and men) of other places/cultures as a supportive thing to do. There are a few countries around the world now whose women are just beginning to be/feel heard. And I feel good about listening and being outraged on their behalf. The learning process is ongoing, though, so I'd agree with you that we don't know enough.
Pearl Buck---you know, she is very generous in her descriptions of Wang Lung, even if for a while, the reader knows more about his tender feelings than O-lan does. I also like how she includes a range of character traits in people outside of the central characters. She did not replace the U.S. old stereotypes with one-dimentional flat characters (still stereotypes). The first readers were given a new range of what "Chinese" meant.
betty gregory
April 3, 2000 - 02:08 pm
Carol....interesting point on the Cuban boy. I'll bet you're right.
CharlieW
April 3, 2000 - 05:27 pm
Carol:
"It is interesting to me that O-lan has such great survival skills. She adapts so quickly to becoming a wife in a lower social caste and has a wonderful work ethic."
It is fascinating to see O-Lan take to her new life - and to see Wang Lung's rather astounded reactions to her abilities. Pearl Buck's gentle subtext here is a lesson.
CharlieW
April 3, 2000 - 06:56 pm
Say - this sounded familiar:
"Then on the second day of the New Year, when it is the day for women to visit each other, the men having eaten and drunk well the day before…" I guess the day after New Year's is the same all over...
After their triumphant visit to the House of Hwang, they talk about the possibility of buying some of the Hwang land that may be for sale. There appear to be reasons NOT to buy that particular piece of land but it seems that Wang Lung (and perhaps to a lesser extent, his wife) want,
desire,
that piece of land - land from "the great House of Hwang." A bit of foreboding here on the part of the reader? A little too much desire for that particular piece of land? Very un-Buddha like? Danger ahead?
Ella Gibbons
April 3, 2000 - 08:13 pm
Charlie - I perked up at the description of that piece of land belonging to the House of Hwang - wasn't it "rich black CLAY?" Now around here we have nothing but clay soil and have to enrich it with other material to make it more porous, the darn stuff is as hard as rock.
Betty - hadn't thought of this "Pearl Buck---you know, she is very generous in her descriptions of Wang Lung, even if for a while,
the reader knows more about his tender feelings than O-lan does."
True, we do. Don't you feel some countries have made great strides or are attempting to in the matter of elevating women to equal status or at least bringing them out of the "slave" world that PB writes about. I believe it was on 60 minutes that we saw an interview with the new and young King and Queen of Jordan, did anyone else see that? She is quite beautiful, educated and outspoken. I don't see how she gets away with dressing as she does in that country, however. And her MIL before her was the same.
Malryn (Mal)
April 3, 2000 - 08:25 pm
I wonder what Pearl Buck would think about this?
www.redskirt.com, launched in December, is a Chinese language online community for women in China, Taiwan, Hong Kong and the U.S. To access the site, click the link above. For more of the article about this site from Wired News, click the link below.
Wired News: Community for Chinese Women.
I'll soon be receiving my copy of The Good Earth; then I'll be able to comment on the book.
Mal
Barbara St. Aubrey
April 4, 2000 - 12:11 am
Oh my how many of my buttons are being pushed with this read-- I remember reading this at about age 14 or 15 and as a child of the
depression decided that I could achieve success in my role as a homemaker by modeling myself after O-lan. I also, remember the
difficulty of handling prosperity beyond my families. That was a decision I made that no matter how successful my children ever
became I would applaud their success and stay independent of their abundance. Here my daughter is sending me an airline ticket to visit
for her, Gary's and Cade's birthday as well as have an early mother's day and I feel awkward. There is a book that I need to reread--
something 'How do I love you without giving up me.'
I must say I felt a tug of bad Karma when Wang wouldn't visit others during the winter months because his abundance was more
comfortable than those he visited. And yes, that is a lesson learned that you can never really one-up someone that you feel less than
by trying to play their game as Wang tried to feel as good as, showing up the Old Master when he used his small amount of hard earned
silver to buy the first piece of land.
Wow I can id with O-lan and the fact that Wang was surprised at her capabilities is so right on. I remember as a young woman always
being shocked when I was put in my place or ignored by who was ever in power and soon learned that even my husband expected
certain behavior. Trying to explain he was never aware of the power he welded because to him he was just being a regular guy. I soon
learned to play the game and 'look good' and gradually developed and interior self. Of course the magazines were filled with how boring
we were as housewives and what we 'should' do to make ourselves more appealing and interesting to our husbands so it was easy to
assume it was all my responsibility to please. When there is so much surrounding you that says your not good enough as the culture in
the 50s and 60s did, you're shamed. I have since learned that shamed people often promise too much and try to become perfectionists.
Tra la, our O-lan!
I've read ahead to page 83...sorry but that seemed the more natural stopping point. To be so desperate that killing your own at birth
seems the right thing...I wonder how many killed their new birthed in the concentration camps...we don't hear...the heart splitting,
wrenching pain in the human psyche...Tearing the bond between mother and child is....much less having to put to death your own......
Having attended groups where with twisted rags you beat a pillow or the floor as you would someone you feel rage toward I learned, I
do not have the strength or energy to act out rage. I am not as strong as my imagination allowed me to fantasize raging. The pain uses
up so much of my strength and energy I cannot even be angry. It is like it has nothing to do with the perpetrator and no amount of rage
or fury touches them or changes them or makes me feel better. The pain doesn't go away and so you just get on with life.
The most beautiful passage to me is on page 30:
...this earth which formed their home and fed their bodies and made their gods. The earth lay rich and dark, and fell apart lightly under the points of their hoes. Sometimes they turned up a bit of brick, a splinter of wood. It was nothing. Some time, in some age, bodies of men and women had been buried there, houses had stood there, had fallen, and gone back into the earth. So would also their house, some time, return into the earth, their bodies also. Each had his turn at this earth. They worked on, moving together--together--producing the fruit of this earth--speechless in their movement together.
The rich and philosophical history of man/woman in one paragraph!
Betty more symbol understanding--
Red symbolizes for the Chinese: the sun; the phoenix; fire; Summer; the south; joy; happiness; the luckiest of all colours. For the Buddhist: Activity; creativity; life.
Barbara St. Aubrey
April 4, 2000 - 12:39 am
Hmmm just had to share, I realized how delighted my daughter must feel being able to send me that airline ticket and I can be happy for her. I remember how grateful I felt when I was first able to buy my mother a vacuum and then a washing mashine. There is a difference between independance and pride.
betty gregory
April 4, 2000 - 12:50 am
Charlie...you wrote "very unBudda-like." Don't know much about Buddist thinking. Explain, please.
Ella, yes, of course I agree that many countries are making progress where women are concerned. Great progress? Where women are paid fairly for their work and are free from physical danger? No, not really. All you have to do is check our own country's emergency room statistics or college campuses that continue to need programs to walk female students to their dorms or cars after dark.
I seem to cycle in and out of optimism...a year or two rejoicing, then a fall back to reality. One way I work back to the optimism is to find things close to home that remind me of good changes----one brother who is involved daily and happily with the care of a grandchild (whose children saw little of him between business trips out of the country). Also, my youngest brother, who I now get to see weekly, doesn't just "help" with his 3 children 4 years old and younger; he is busy with every aspect of their care, as is his wife. The first brother's wife who had worked at home all those years and who struggled terribly with social shyness----boy, has she claimed some new territory. Last I heard, she's taking out of state road trips with her new buddies from WORK. My favorite phone call of all time from this newly retired brother is his story of the tiny grandchild who told him over the phone about being held down on the ground by 3 female first graders---and of the teacher laughing it off and making fun of his crying. Then of my brother's in-person visit to the teacher to ask if she would have let 3 little boys hold down a girl until she cried. And asked if she had a problem with boys crying. A good response from the teacher, so a letter to the school board was averted. A few years before, I'm not sure my brother would have responded in this way. Things are changing.
Charlotte J. Snitzer
April 4, 2000 - 04:13 am
Hi YiLi:
I loved your story about the library and not ever having read the book till now. But the same library! Wow.
I didn't want to read Buck now, having read it so long ago. There are so many great, new Chinese-American writers like Maxine Hong Kingston, Gish Jen, Amy Tan, etc.
But husband Milt picked up The Good Earth at the library yesterday.
I'm one-third through the book and it's still great. After all she was the first woman to win a Pulitzer or was it a Nobel. I'm not sure.
But why did it take so long for the second woman to win one--Toni Morrison in 1993? (I'm still fooling with the color. Hope it comes up this time.)
Charlotte
Charlotte J. Snitzer
April 4, 2000 - 04:20 am
Someone, please tell me what I did wrong.
Charlotte
Barbara St. Aubrey
April 4, 2000 - 07:47 am
Charlotte I think the font change needs to be directly in front of the first word you want changed rather then seperate in the title and also as I understand it ther needs to be Quote marks on each side of the color you choose - font color="blue"
Malryn (Mal)
April 4, 2000 - 08:15 am
Charlotte:
left caretFONT COLOR="#0000A0">left caretFONT SIZE="3">left caretB>YiLiLinleftcaret/FONT>
CharlieW
April 4, 2000 - 09:36 am
Charlotte: I'm not so sure you can "do color" in the title box, but I could be wrong.
Betty: Only meant Wang Lung's DESIRE was very un-Buddah like.
Deems
April 4, 2000 - 10:24 am
Charlotte---I tried to do font color in the title box and couldn't.
Maryal
Ginny
April 4, 2000 - 11:05 am
Charlotte: Barbara, Malryn, Charlie and Maryal are correct, just do your font color thing in the post itself, apparently the title won't take it.
Well now!! My goodness, what can you do when you find yourself 68 posts behind (we have been VERY busy reorganizing the
Books and I hope you will see the results soon and enjoy same) and you read ONE and you realize it's a gem, just a jewel, and you read the next, and it's a jewel, too, and you realize you are actually looking at an entire necklace of jewels, any ONE of which you would enjoy talking on for a week?
There's nothing I can do but to say it MUST be a pretty darn good book to produce all these reactions. So far I don't see anybody saying it doesn't move them or that they can't relate to it. So far a couple of people don't approach it with foreboding and some do, some think Wang Lung was motivated by anger and revenge and some don't, and we've had great research and personal thoughts.
I do think the EARTH is one of the main themes, should we list them in the heading, perhaps we should. The status of women is another. Mark how many times the old father acts in such a way BECAUSE she is a woman? When O Lan fixes wonderful food, when she's first brought into the home, no use to get her "spoiled" by saying too many nice things. How about this one, "Secretely he was pleased that his son had invited guests, but he felt it would not do to give out anything but complaints before his new daughter-in- law lest she be set from the first in ways of extravagance."
Do you know anybody like that today? I do. Do you know anybody who is not lavish with praise for that reason?
How do you feel about Wang Lung? Does Buck succeed in making you root for him? After all, he's not exactly giving his wife life on a bed of roses, is he? How about if YOU were married to Wang Lung (or Charlie, hahahaha in your case, how about if your sister was married to Wang Lung)??? How would you feel about him then? Yet we do, or at least I do think he's an OK guy and root for him, why?
Because he works so hard?
Did this book make YOU get up and do something? I must admit that this one line "His uncle's wife had nothing active in her body except her tongue." (page 60). That one thing got me UP from the computer and out in the yard! hahahahaaa Some things never change, HAH?
I felt that O-Lan's passionate speech about how and in what way she would go back in that house revealed her desire to show herself prosperous despite the circumstances in which she had been raised. Note that upon returning from her audience, what did she notice? What's the first thing she finally says when he asks her , "Well?" "I believe, if one should ask me, tht they are feeling a pinch this year in that house...Tha Ancient Mistress wore the same coat this year as last. I have never seen that happen before...I saw not one slave with a new coat like mine."
O-Lan describes a family life then completely different from her own and Wang Lung declares, "We will buy the land!" "'I will buy it!' he cried in a lordly voice. I will buy it from the great House of Hwang!'"
"' It is too far away,' she said in consternation. 'We could have to walk half the morning to reach it.' 'I will buy it,' he repeated peevishly ...."
"He said 'Hwang's land' as casually as he might have said 'Ching's land'--Ching, who was his farmer neighbor. He would be more than equal to these people in the foolish, great, wasteful house....And his wife, who had been a slave in the kitchens of that proud family, she would be wife to a man who owned a piece of the land that for generations had made the House of Hwang great."
And O'Lan says, "Last year this time I was slave in that house." "And they walked on, silent with the fullness of this thought."
That's pretty easy to understand. He was shamed by the gatekeeper and she was a slave. So even if the land is half a day's walk and would be thus impossible to tend and keep, they buy it because of what it symbolizes to them.
What DOES it symbolize?
Were you struck by the religious observances? The old father each year makes the robes for the statues of the gods, and they don't neglect the ceremonies. But nobody goes and decorates Wang Lung's mother's grave, do they? Where is the ancestor worship we hear about?? Or did I miss something there?
I loved the speaking out loud about the child's "ugliness and pox" to ward off the "evil spirits." Gives you a very good impression of their actual religious beliefs?
Would you say then that religion was very important, important not so important or replaced with supersition when the chips were down.
What does Wang Lung look to for help in trouble?
I think that's enough from me today, let's hear from YOU??
Ginny
YiLi Lin
April 4, 2000 - 12:40 pm
Barbara- thank you for the ps post about giving your mother a wasig machine - recognizing your own pride and then transferring the understanding to how your daughter might feel.
i'm wondering though why in earlier posts people did not consider this motivation for O'Lan- her returning to the House of Hwang out of duty mixed with a feeling of pride in her marriage, child, clothing etc. i still don't see O'Lan as a character manifesting feelings of revenge. She is very basic - almost feral- knows how to survive, how to help her family survive and uses appropriate skills for each task- and it seems like pride is the only "feeling" she allows herself, she is not overly sad, not joyous etc.
see the earth in these early pages as becoming a character- those splinters etc. analogous to the splinters within an individual life- the history analogous to an individual human history. the earth in this work to me is more than "a place" or "a thing". i think the earth has played a significan role in the historical development of Wang Lung, and perhaps explains his sudden need to OWN earth.
Charlotte J. Snitzer
April 4, 2000 - 03:23 pm
Thanks for your help on color. I think Maryal is right. I cannot post color in the title box. I used color once or twice before in the body of the post, but I still feel a little shaky about it.
Charlotte
CharlieW
April 4, 2000 - 04:56 pm
YiLiLin: "i still don't see O'Lan as a character manifesting feelings of revenge." No, me either. Now Wang Lung's experience with the gatekeeper reminded me somewhat of the experinece of the young Thomas Sutpen in Absalom!Absalom! at The Big House. So he (and I've only read 5 CHapters) may have some motives along this line - at least there is the possibility of that fir the author to exploit. And YiLiLin your choice of the word feral was perfect. How can her husband develop anything but the deepest respect for her. It's almost as if, given this freedom, she means to make the most of it - nothing will stop her.
Ginny asks what did the ability to purchase Hwang land symbolize. Well, a validation that their hard work is paying off. Status? Acceptance? But I still sense a danger here. That they DESIRE (Wang Lung more than his wife) this land for the WRONG reasons.
betty gregory
April 4, 2000 - 10:11 pm
Even though I respect the passionate positions taken on font color in the headings, I have to disagree. Use of color that early in the post has a symbolic hint of arrogance and is unsettling to the eye. Safer to wait for a more subtle introduction....say, 2nd or 3rd sentence, possibly later.
Use of bold font is acceptable anywhere in the post but caution must be exercized. Too frequent use of bold emphasis is a far greater infraction than color in the heading. (Unless you're Ella and yelling....and I notice she yells in bold red....what a sad case.)
Bold AND color in the heading, you ask? Painful memories. Someone tried that once, then we never heard from her again. Very upsetting.
--------------------------------------
Charlie, you goose, I wasn't questioning if the behavior or DESIRE was un-buddah like. I meant I was ignorant of what it means to be buddah anything. Budda? Buddah? See, I can't even spell it. Basic, elementary facts, please. Is it something to do with receiving life, this moment, as is...feeling grateful for the fullness of life as presented to us, blah, blah, blah?
betty gregory
April 4, 2000 - 11:30 pm
This yearning to do well has struck a chord with us. Whatever we call it...Wang Lung and O lan's need for achievement, need for acknowlegement, revenge or no revenge, a yearning to belong to something and have that something belong to them. To have roots, maybe. To be as good as the House of Hwang. Thinking back through my life to the periods of dogged pursuit of one goal or another, I know I felt a little or a lot of these things. Life changes us, though. I'm a little amazed (ashamed?) now of some of my motivation for some of those goals. I'm thinking of a house I built once and what it meant to me for people to say, "On your own?"
Oh, mercy. I just thought of a time in the early '80's as a new manager when I would purposefully take a later flight than I had to on a Friday evening to fly back home from a business trip. I would walk onto that airplane, briefcase visible, knowing that people would see me as a "business woman," not just a person traveling for pleasure. That makes no sense at all to me right now, but I must have needed it then. (Now I'd be concocting ways to leave early and change into jeans before the flight. Is this wisdom, advancing age, altered values, drastic change of peer group, all of the above? What?)
Barbara St. Aubrey
April 5, 2000 - 12:55 am
OK I've been at it again. Those two gods in their red paper capes puzzled me. They do not match anything I know of that fits the Buddhist Gods. Than it occured to me that an Earth God would be from the beginning of a culture. Buddhism only arrived in China around 550BC and Confusianism in about 225BC where as Taoism or as some spell it Daoism was the philosophy since 2500BC.
This link explains briefly all the
'religions'/philosophies of China Did not find as much there as I had hoped although, I did find a
'Land God' or 'Earth God' but no partner. The early myths provided a real possibility especially learning from Ken and Shu who are from Tiwain (I'm helping them buy a house that they close on next week) that there is a festival in the fall to the
Moon God that is on the
same day as the birthday of the Earth God. The explanation of these two Gods sound very close the the myth of the sister and brother,
Fu Xi and Nü Wa.
After the spontaneous generation of Hun Dun (Hundun), the primal blob, and its transformation through Pon Ghu (Pan Gu) into heaven and earth, Shewah (Nü Wa) is born into paradise, having hatched from the primal egg. She marries her twin brother, Fuh He (Fu Xi), is seduced by the river god, Huh Boa (He Bo), has an affair with the sky god, Hoh Yih (Hou Yi), and then creates human beings before finally vanquishing the water demon, Gongong (Gong Gong), and repairing the devastated world for her human descendants.
Fu Xi and Nü Wa
The fragments of myth that describe the sibling rulers Fu Xi and Nü Wa are relatively abundant, as are pictorial representations of their intertwined half-dragon, half-human forms. The derivation of their names is unclear but in the case of Fu Xi seems to point to the "hunter" or the "cook."
The sister's name is the character for "woman," plus a second unique character containing the "woman" classifier in its ideographic make-up. If the "worm" classifier is substituted for this "woman" then the common word for "snail" results. Perhaps this is suggestive of the physical appearance of Nü Wa. The fact that the ideograph of her name is so predominantly feminine has prompted some scholars to speculate that remnants of her myth are evidence of an ancient matriarchal culture.
Although Fu Xi is normally considered the first of the legendary rulers (reigned 2852-2737 BCE), some registers indicate that Nü Wa came before him. Nü Wa is credited with establishing the rites of marriage and inventing the reed pipe, while her brother is the inventor of nets and baskets, hunting and cooking, the zither, and sometimes fire. While the sister is best known for creating human beings, her brother is most famous for the discovery of the bagua, or eight trigrams, of the Book of Changes The Book of Changes is commonly refered to as the I Ching and the 64 hexigrams is said to have first been divined from the turtle shell)
Hundun
One of the most intriguing myths relates the story of the sad demise of Hundun. The Daoist philosopher Zhuangzi (370-301 BCE) records the earliest reference to this mythical being.
Zhuangzi uses this tale as a parable to illustrate the benefit of ridding the body of desires. The statement of a Daoist master could just as easily be applied to this passage: "I demonstrated to him how it was before first emerging from our Ancestor." Early commentators described Hundun as the primal Oneness which first divided into heaven, earth and the ten-thousand things. An even more terse account appears in chapter 42 of the Laozi: "Dao begat the one; one begat two; two begat three; three begat the ten-thousand things."
What is perhaps most intriguing is the fact that the world was not perceived as beginning in chaos. Hundun did not impose order upon the preexistent confusion and thus bring law into being. Hundun, or the Dao, was the pre-cosmic order.
In the state of Hundun heaven
and earth were like an egg. Pan
Gu was born in the midst. After
eighteen-thousand years, the
heavens split from the
firmament as yang cleared and
yin became turbid. In its midst
Pan Gu in one day completed nine
transformations.
Pan Gu Pan Gu was the firstborn. When
about to die, he underwent
transformation. Breath became
the wind and clouds. Voice was
thunder. The left eye was the
sun, right eye the moon. The four
limbs and body became the four
directions and the mountain
peaks. Blood was river and
stream. Tendons were the
mountain paths and roads, while
flesh and muscle were the arable
lands.
Mane and beard became the
stars, while fur was grass and
trees. Teeth and bones were
precious ores. Sperm was pearl
and marrow jade; sweat became
the quenching rains. The vermin
crawling on its body, influenced
by the vapors, changed into the
black-haired masses.
Barbara St. Aubrey
April 5, 2000 - 12:58 am
Long ago in the ancient Center dragons gazed at the moonless night and perceived the patterns there as veins in precious jade. Then they looked down from Heaven's Mount and perceived the patterns there as grains in polished wood. They drew the map of the Yellow River to record their cryptic visions.
Those who fathomed the secrets of this lore could find the path of least obstruction and journey back and forth in time. The wise men consulted its bamboo pages,
just as their ancestors had divined by turtle shell. In the beginning the dragons were submerged but desired to reach the light above. So they swam to the surface, crawled up onto the shore, setting out to explore the land. They reveled in the sun, but at the end of day their supple skin was scorched. So they leapt up into the air, heading back for those dark depths from whence they came. Look at the dragons! Flying in the sky! But they did not reach their ancient lair; they fell and sank
into the mire. Drawn up from the bowels of earth by the light of day the dragons first
inhabited the three great realms of the fish, the mammal and the bird.
In the beginning there was the sack tied up to hold in all the world. Then came the earth, first straight, then square. Next came the dragons whose cryptic map recorded the hidden lines. Soon frost was underfoot and winter was near at hand. The old dragons battled in the wilds; their blood was sable and amber. Two-legged humans inherited the earth, donning their garments of gold. The yellow sack had held the entire world immobile, but now just clothed the myriad bags of mortal blood and bone.
After there are Heaven and Earth, then are born the myriad things.
After the myriad things, then there are the sexes.
After male and female, then there are husband and wife.
After marriage, then there are father and son.The Ninth Wing
This ancient myth maybe the source of the continued belief in the value of sons.
Barbara St. Aubrey
April 5, 2000 - 01:46 am
The Chinese, an agricultural people, planted and harvested by the moon. For this reasons, the Chinese give special attention to the moon in times of worship. During the Tang dynasty (A.D. 618-906) the
15th day of the eighth lunar month was made an official holiday-Moon Festival. The Chinese people have a legend or a fairy tale for everything, and the moon is no exception.
According to folk legend, this day is also the birthday of the
Earth god (T'u-ti Kung).This festival signals that the year's hard work in the fields will soon come to an end, with only the harvest left to attend to. People use this opportunity to express their gratitude to heaven
(represented by the moon) and
earth (symbolized by the earth god) for the blessings they have enjoyed over the past year.
The Chinese believe in
praying to the Moon God for protection, family unity, and good fortune. The
round "moon cakes" eaten on this festival are
symbolic of family unity and closeness. Pomelos are also eaten on this day. The Chinese word for "pomelo" or "grapefruit" is yu, which is homophonous with the word for "protection," yu, expressing the hope that the moon god give them protection. Moon gazing is another essential part of this festival. On this day, the moon is at its roundest and brightest. This is also a time for lovers to tryst and pray for togetherness, symbolized by the roundness of the moon. Unlike most other Chinese festivals, the Mid-Autumn Festival is a low-key holiday, characterized by peace and elegance.
N Wa is credited with establishing the rites of marriage and inventing the reed pipe and the Moon God is responsible for protection, family unity, and good fortune. Sounds similar to me.
Fu Xi is the inventor of nets and baskets, hunting and cooking, the zither, and sometimes fire. This link takes you to a statue of the
Land God or Earth God If you click on the name of the statue God it will give you the discription of the God.
The Land God is explained:
In traditional China, every village had a
shrine to the local Earth God. It was this God who was in charge of administering the affairs of a particular village. In traditional times, village concerns were primarily
agricultural or weather-related. This God was not all-powerful, but was a modest Heavenly bureaucrat to whom individual villagers could turn in times of need, famine, drought, etc.
This
God is often called "Grandpa," which reflects his close relationship to the common people. He typically wears a black hat and
a red robe, which signify his position as a bureaucrat. His birthday is commonly celebrated on the 2nd day of the 2nd lunar month.
The fact that the Grandfather makes the red capes maybe then, this is Wang's Earth God. And I can't help but wonder if the other is a sister God, possibly the Moon God or maybe N Wa, which would help me see the power in O-lan. She may have been a slave but in marriage she is the feral woman that Yili Lin so aptly describes but with a grace and strength that is almost god like. And the concept of being a part of the earth that again Yili Lin brought to our attention, could Wang and O-lan be prototypes of the Gods housed in the field?
Plus the myth of N Wa shows a very busy lady with lots of power!!!
CharlieW
April 5, 2000 - 04:41 am
Betty - Goose you say? Painful memories, indeed. I can still remember when I was about ten and my Uncle had me repeat over and over (while bowing).....
O-WAH
TA-GU
SI-AM
The back of my neck still gets warm...
Charlotte J. Snitzer
April 5, 2000 - 05:07 am
Please translate O-Wah, etc.
I love your linking the feelings of rejection to Absalom, Absalom. Isn't it exciting when we can make such discoveries. It's really what literature is all about. Down through literary history, it's been creating stories from ideas which were generated in previous ones.
Charlotte
ALF
April 5, 2000 - 07:35 am
Oh dear fellow readers! I am still freezing in NYS and with the "honey-hugs" I've asked for I have r/c the kids intestinal flu bug.. All 7 kids and 4 adults have been passing it back and forth since my arrival and at last I have succumbed to the virus. Tadaaa!
To further my misery, I posted 2 days ago and just realized that it is in cyber heaven (I guess) Unless it was so irrelevant someone else deleted it. Charlie--- was it you? I loved your word "organic". It was always wet and cool in the tunnel of the gate under the thick wall of earth and brick; cool even upon a summers's day so that the melon vendors spread their fruits upon the stones, melons split open to drink in the moist coolness. Yes, organic. You can taste it.
Rereading the first chapter I have a question that one of you may be able to answer. Why was Wang adamant about cutting off his braid without his father's approval ? Is that a symbol of virility, family pride, what?
BARBARA: As usual you have added such dimension with your research.
I didn't realize the infant faces were turned into their " good earth" in murder.
Perhaps it's my flu riddled brain but WHO wrote "You may have contained the anger, but not the sadness?" That is exactly the symbolic picture I get of Wang, throughout the read. This anger & inferiority cause Wangs descent. He becomes incensed at the impudence of the beggar and next the gatemen. Wang Lung , in spite of anger at what had just happened and horror at this loud announcing of his coming, could do nothing but follow. The gateman smelled his fear (another repeated theme.) I felt so sad for him. He thought of the hundred courts he had come through and of his figure absurd under its burden.
How sensual this mariage sounded as Olan joined her husband in the fields, moving in perfect rhythm, falling into a union, she took the pain from his labor. Is that not love?? At this point she tells him she is with child. After this birth poor Wang becomes fearful --feeling It did not do in this life to be too fortunate. I loved that paragraph "The air and the earth were filled with malignant spirits who could not endure the happiness of mortals, esp. of such as are poor!" What a powerful sentence.
The piece of land which Wang Lung now owned was a thing which greatly changed his life, tells Ms. Buck. She even describes this.
spring came with blustering winds and torn clouds of rain and for Wang the half-idle days of winter were plunged ito long days of desperate labor over his land. The change has come. After he becomes goaded with anger at the uncle, he is seized with sadness and groans aloud, as he watches the evil omen (crows) fly near.
ALF
April 5, 2000 - 07:48 am
You can feel the fear in this barren "good earth", can't you? She describes the bitter wind, the empty sky, the marching of the hot sun. The moon in its time shone like a lesser sun for clearness.
With no land to plough, and no crops left to eat, their dried good earth forces them to slay and eat their ox. Wang Lung has an isnstant of extreme fear, until he feels "I have the land still, and it is mine."
Strong beginning, yes?
IF I keep my head out of the porcelain for a couple of hours, I should be home tomorrow night and will rejoin the discussion on Friday AM. Carry on group.
betty gregory
April 5, 2000 - 09:23 am
Thank you, thank you, Barbara. Ever thought of creating a website that (for a small fee) teaches people how to do research? I love looking for answers/information, as you must, but many people feel intimidated at the thought of "research," and especially "on the internet." Newbies could compete on short-term treasure hunts that you've designed, then share in a discussion format what worked or didn't.
Charlie, I didn't know! I didn't know about that mean 'ole uncle and the bowing. "You goose" is what I say when my cat is so awful and so cute at the same time that I end up laughing. That's happened a lot lately with this 8 month old "teenager" kitty I've had for 2 months. The day he discovered he could go through the window blinds instead of under them, I was hoarse from yelling. The worst/best moment came when he was completely stuck, hanging by his stomach on the long back door blinds. I was laughing so hard at his antics...the entertainment surpassing the frustration.
CharlieW
April 5, 2000 - 09:34 am
<betty> - i have "always" loved your cat stories - you should write some</betty>
Charlie
Barbara St. Aubrey
April 5, 2000 - 10:41 am
Thanks Betty...just all part of my 'little girl' letting loose. I was the one with so many questions that in the fourth grade the whole class moaned... and to my grateful support the nun not only patiently went through the math process again but, announced to the class that if it weren't for my questions many in the class would have failed.
I still go through life, especially when I am reading, with this insatiable curiousity and if one set of words in Yahoo doesn't bring up enough possiblities another will. Believe it or not of the 300 or 400 sites found that anywhere near match my inquary I browse them all. The discription of what they contain clues me as to if I should open it and often what I open has other links. It is an endless procession of information that as I read, just brings up more and more questions till I can satisfy and uncover what I think is the source or lodestone. I guess those nuns again made an impact on me when they said that it wasn't what I memorized in school that counted it was learning how and having the ability to find answers.
Alf with your adding-- "Wang Lung has an instant of extreme fear, until he feels "I have the land still, and it is mine." coupled with Yili Lin's observation that 'we are the earth', I am really seeing Wang as the Good Earth. The land is at times gentle and forgiving and other times severe and 'waiting' for nurishing rains. I wonder if our Lin in Ha Jin's Waiting originally went off to enlist during a time of crop failure as Wang seems to be going south waiting for the earth to be replinished. The south where he pours out his vitatity waiting.
Charles wow yes, the greats all have a theme that is reflected in each other. Perfect...Absalom
YiLi Lin
April 5, 2000 - 12:30 pm
A brief course in buddhism- there are three major vehicles that are used for the teaching of buddhism as a philosophy- hinayana, mahayan and vijayana (sp?) unfortunately some people describe hinayana as a "lesser vehicle" which in an american interpretation suggests inferior. but it is know that one cannot progress to a greater vehicle if one has not learned on a ?lesser. The hinayana emphasizes the Four Noble Truths and mahayan the life of a bodhisattva- a bodhisattva delays his/her nirvana and continues on the path of enlightenment with a sincere desire to show others "the way". The vijayana is the most esoteric and can be likened dto the path followed by monks, ascetics, etc. Chinese buddhism is predominantly mahayana. Each vehicle is "practiced" by some within a sect. (not necessarily sectism unless the practitioners are sort of on the wrong path). A common "sect" is Lotus- this means that these pilgrims are engaged in seeking enlightenment through the lotus sutra.
IN terms of Charlie's reference to desire and unbuddhist like- one goal of a buddhist journey is to understand intellectually, spiritually and practice emptiness. empitness reflects upon the NOT of the material world (phenomenon). also a basic belief within the Four Noble Truths is that desire often leads to suffering- one suffers when one cannot have what one wants (desires) or when you get it because phenomenon is transitory sooner or later you lose it and thus suffer. - the endless cycle. this aspect of buddhism is played out in the Good Earth- even early on the reference to homes built of the earth that wear away or are washed away then one must let go of possessions (the famine) and one who is enlightened understands its all part of a cycle.
True buddhism does not really worship a god- the various buddhas you read about Kuan Yin, Amitahabha etc. though they have mythological lineages like the greek stories or bible stories- are simply manifestations of buddhist qualities- so Kuan Yin the goddes of compassion when called upon is really a call to our own innate compassion. Mahayan buddism believes that every sentient being has the capacity to be a buddha.
It is hard to explain because american language paints a very concrete picture that does not truly explain the "emptiness" or the NOT. and in the past 10 years westerners have embraced buddhism and some embraced it with a need for an "organized religion" and have fallen victim to some monks and buddhist leaders who have created cult-like miniorganizations.
barbara's wonderful work explores the mythological history of china (in the same way greece and rome have mythological or oral histories) and most of the gods and the rituals evolved from indigenous practices (like the Celts) and infusion of confuscism into the folklore of the times.
Malryn (Mal)
April 5, 2000 - 12:55 pm
Thank you, Yili Lin, for posting what you did. It has been on my mind, since I knew I'd join this discussion, that most of us as Westerners do not understand Eastern points of view or philosophies at all well, and that even what we research on the web or in literature is not enough to educate us in such a brief period of time about what those philosophies and beliefs are and how they came into being.
It has also occurred to me that although Pearl Buck lived many years in China, she still was a product of Western thought. After all, she was the daughter of Christian missionaries, and that fact is important. Her attitude, though admirable in the respect that she worked hard for the rights of Eastern and Western women and what we call minorities still very much reflected Western thought and ideas. The aspect of "nothingness" and "not" is foreign to most Western minds, as YiLi has pointed out so well.
Since it is impossible for me to spend years studying Buddhism and Chinese history in order to understand more fully, I suspect that I will continue to read this book as literature rather than try to analyze background I cannot as a Westerner understand without years of study and living in the East. For some reason, I think Pearl Buck would appreciate that fact.
Mal
Ella Gibbons
April 5, 2000 - 07:06 pm
What an interesting conversation, thank you all; however, I agree with Mal that we cannot hope to learn much about Buddhism in this short time. I doubt that PB had any intention of going into the depths of Chinese culture or religion - the book seems to me to be written simply and has a slow pace and quietness about it. A person from any culture can appreciate the universality of the themes presented here which makes this book unique.
Yili Lin - This emptying of the mind so that we want NOT - we desire NOT! Are you speaking only of material possessions? It would be hard for me to conceive of not wanting love or companionship, friendship.
Perhaps something we need to keep in mind about the awards this book received is that it was published during the depression in this country and throughout the world; the discussion of the famine, the anxieties, suffering and the loss of the Good Earth, if you will, was familiar to the readers and perhaps they were touched by the theme that "only the earth remains."
I respond to the character of O-lan, her pride in her son and wanting to show him off to the inhabitants of the House of Hwang; it is a small thing, but such a big thing! Can't all mothers everywhere relate to that? There is nothing so big as the pride a mother feels at the birth of her first child - I did, didn't you?
Ginny asks so many questions! Mercy! I'll go back and read her post again or have we answered them all?
CharlieW
April 5, 2000 - 07:35 pm
Ella you say that "the book seems to me to be written simply and has a slow pace and quietness about it." Yes. I think the prose sometimes takes on almost a biblical lilt:
"And again the harvests were good and Wang Lung gathered silver from the selling of his produce and again he hid it in the wall"
Not only in the cadence but in the parable like nature of its intent. I wonder if, being a child of missionaries, she learned to read (and think) in a biblical voice.
Also, Ella, good point about placing this in the context of the times. I think you're right that this accounted for its universal popularity.
Jean Seagull
April 6, 2000 - 08:07 am
Yes, Charlie, I too have noticed the Bible-like rhythm and power of PB's prose. We could be reading the stories of Job or Soddom & Gomorrah.
Wonder if anyone has heard that Ha Jin, the author of WAITING, has won the 2000 Pen/Faulkner Award for fiction which includes a $15,000 prize. It will be awarded in mid-May. Since he teaches here at Emory this was in the Atlanta Constitution a couple days ago.
Ginny
April 6, 2000 - 01:47 pm
Once again wonderful posts and insights, research and opinions, I love
them all.
I thought this statement from YiLi Lin summarized for me the theme of all the trilogy of books which won Buck the Nobel Prize: "and
one who is enlightened understands its all part of a cycle."
The CYCLE that IS Mother China is one cycle that Buck relentlessly pursues in the sequels to this book, thru war, famine, new governments, old ways, new ways, China herself remains and so does the land. That'a very powerful image, and one which has stayed with me all these years every time I see something on China on the news, I have felt I "understood" her from these books. I wonder if that, in fact is so?
The reason I wanted to stop on page 75 was the Scarlett like statement (who was it who likened this to GONE WITH THE WIND?)
"They cannot take the land from me. The labor of my body and the fruit of the fields I have put into that which cannot be taken away. If I had the silver, they would have taken it. If I had bought with the silver to store it, they would have taken it all. I have the land still, and it is mine."
But is it?
Whose point of view do you think this story is told from? Certainly the House of Huang lost their land. Suppose your family were starving and somebody came along who was richer and offered you money for your land? What would it make you if you didn't take it?
I wonder if we ever own land at all, we think we do but I wonder. The more you try to preserve it the more it seems it slips away. Maybe you only have it while you live.
Betty I loved that thought, can see you on the airplane and who has not done something like that? We all have. I'm still thinking the reasons he wanted the Huang land were wrong and I'm really enjoying the opposite opinions.
How germane is this story today? We just passed the much heralded Turn of the Century. Or, depending on whose side you took, the New Millennium. In our enlightened age, what happened? People stockpiled food for their families and then what did they do? The sale of firearms skyrocketed off the charts. What for? Were they planning to shoot game? With pistols?
IS the scene here of the mob breaking in upon the house so far fetched? Here in our prosperous America in the year 2000?
What do you think of the uncle's behavior? "Lung's uncle shivered about the streets like a lean dog and whistpered from his famished lips, "There is one who has food--there is one whose children are fat, still."
Now I think here we are looking at more than the grasshopper and the ant. If Wang Lung's uncle had done that to YOU, what would you think of him?
"From that day his uncle turned against him like a dog that has been kicked, and he whispered about the village in this house and that."
You know jealousy must be one of the most evil and powerful emotions ever known to man. Envy, anger, malice, Jealousy is not one of the "seven deadly sins, " is it, or is it? Yet look at the harm it does, not only in a simple peasant village but in our own lives. Will Uncle answer for this? If he were YOUR relative would he answer?
Most critics divide the book into two parts, Chapters 1-14, and the rest of the book. Might we try for the next 70 or so pages, for next week, completing Chapters 1-14 and then complete the rest?
What do you think?
As far as the style, it would be astounding if the child of Missionaries raised in China did not have Bibical cadences, wouldn't it?
Ginny
Ella Gibbons
April 6, 2000 - 02:13 pm
Do we ever own the land, Ginny asks.
Yili Lin answered that question very well in her post:
also a basic belief within the Four Noble Truths is that desire often leads to suffering- one suffers when one cannot have what one wants (desires) or when you get it because phenomenon is transitory sooner or later you lose it and thus suffer. - the endless cycle
No, we can just desire it and suffer it, own/lose. True of anything isn't it, down to the very body we think we own.
betty gregory
April 6, 2000 - 03:27 pm
Speaking of land and if we ever "own" it, in Karen Blixen's (pen name Isak Dinesen) true story, Out of Africa, she wrestles with many issues of ownership. Ownership of her farmland in Kenya, of her native servants and field workers, and even related rights between two people who love each other. Remember, her lover Denis Finchhaten(?) believed we own nothing while we are on this earth, and made fun of her sentences that began, "My land, my people..." The part of the movie that still makes me cry is at the end when they each confess to the other that, on this subject of ownership, each may have been wrong. She left Kenya in 1931. This set of stories about Africa was published in 1937. Obviously, our world has changed since then; I wonder if we have exchanged (dreaming of) ownership of land for (dreaming of) size of house and paycheck.
Ginny
April 7, 2000 - 06:12 am
Also the Elspeth Huxley books (that's another author still alive, I believe, we would enjoy reading) about her family's attempts to colonize Africa are wonderful lessons in who REALLY owns land. Her Flame Trees of Thika which was made into a PBS series starts out a marvelous series of books which are treasures.
I can't get this out of my mind, it's really haunting me and I wonder if you all feel the same way??
Just answer this one:
Could YOU if called upon, by whatever quirk of fate, here in 2000, could YOU make shoes? Could YOU live off the land? Does this book about a peasant a long time ago make YOU feel a little inadequate? Could YOU in fact, LIVE off a "Victory Garden" type of thing?
Could I? That's the question I keep asking myself?
Could I?
Ginny
PS: I just asked my husband that and he paused 1/2 second and said, "Yeah."
Could I, tho? Could YOU? And if we can't, where does that leave US??
Barbara St. Aubrey
April 7, 2000 - 08:47 am
Having hiked in Mexico where folks still live from crop to crop with no utilities and the running water being the nearby river, no doctors and limited schooling, no books, TV or radio but an intimate knowledge of the land and all the wild grasses, bushes and trees. Where children can explore the countryside for miles around, safely but, if the crop fails may be dead by next year. The stoic look on their faces is appropriate but their sense of place is amazing as is their sense of a god and of course all the superstitions that go with a culture still living as in the late eighteenth century or early ninteenth century, with products that come their way from the twentieth that they use to make the most outlandish but usefull things. Old tires become shoes or rather (my spelling is bad much less spanish but here goes) Herrachies.
I think we could all do it but modern technology has given us a longer less risky life.
ALF
April 7, 2000 - 08:58 am
Ginny: When forced into a survival situation one must adjust.
Making the shoes would have been easy-- A basic survival technique. These people were basicly poor farmers , illiterate and uneducated in everything but their skills at farming the lands. They understood survival. You ask "could you do it?" You betcha! If my family was destined for starvation, disease adn famine--- you bet I'd be able to conjure up some manner to save them. We all would- year 2000 or 1300, it matters not.
patwest
April 7, 2000 - 09:20 am
Survival? Of course... anyone who grew up during the depression, knowz about survival.. Shoes? they are only needed in cold weather... And I learned in China... if it's green and growing in the ground, you can pick it, wash it, and steam it for lunch.
betty gregory
April 7, 2000 - 10:37 am
Could we do it? My mother is still doing it----her life of frugality and buying things on sale and "making do" goes on, even though the requirement to do it is gone. She drives me crazy and I also love her for it, too.
YiLi Lin
April 7, 2000 - 01:36 pm
yes, yes universal themes-
there is a conceptual difference between desire and aspiration- and i think that is where the issue of friendship, etc. come in. if one desires a friend or a material thing one wishes to OWN that thing for his or her own ejnoyment, betterment, etc. if one aspires to attain friendship then one understands the mutual benefit of that interaction- no one owns another. ?
so for me the question is does Wang Lung desire to own more land or is there an aspiration to attain a shared or shareable benefit from the land- producing more crops, providing more employment, etc. even in these capitalistic times there is no one saying that it is bad to be wealthy- it is more why is one attaining wealth and how does that wealth contribute or diminish the greater good.
Charlotte J. Snitzer
April 7, 2000 - 02:28 pm
Certainly you are right. Wang Lung wanted to attain more land so he could produce more crops, and gain more respect from others. I do not think he cared about providing employment or helping others than himself.
I have finished the book and here is what I think of it, without revealing any part of the story.
THE GOOD EARTH by Pearl Buck
I did not want to reread this book which I read and loved as a teenager. I remember Louise Rainer as
O-Lan and Paul Muni as Wang Lung in the wonderful movie and the plague of the locusts. And at that
time I didn’t even question why they did not use Chinese actors. Nor did I question the plight of O-Lan.
I read it as a wonderful novel and a memorable movie and probably attributed the characterization and
events to the fact that that was the way things were in China. But it is a paradigm which shows from where civilization has come and how relationships between men and women have changed and how they still have to change.
Wang Lung was basically a good man , but he could not rise above what was accepted and usual in his society. He knew no other way to better his condition than to acquire more land, which would bring him more physical comfort and respect. Nor could he look at women in any other role than being put upon this earth to serve as workers and comforters of men.
Wang Lung was basically a good, man but he could not rise above what was usual and accepted in his
society. He knew no other way to better his condition than to acquire more land, which would bring him
physical comfort and respect . Nor could he look at women in any other role as being put on this earth to
serve as workers and comforters of men.
Looking back on the book now, I see it as a great classic novel. Pearl Buck was way ahead of her time in
realizing the two important needs for changing civilization. They are: EDUCATION
which could lead to ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, which could then lead to more humane, fulfilling
relationships between the sexes..
To follow up on this book, read what could have happened to Wang-Lung’s sons in America in China
Men by Maxine Hong Kingston. Their role in building the trans-continental railroad which united the
East and West is an eye opener.
Charlotte
P.S. I guess I still have to work on adding color
Charlotte J. Snitzer
April 7, 2000 - 02:49 pm
Today, though Muni and Rainer were great in their roles, they would be sure to use Chinese actors instead.
Charlotte J. Snitzer
April 7, 2000 - 03:01 pm
It's 6:00 P.M. EDT. No doubt a time of heavy PC use. They would not allow me back on to delete the repeated paragraph.
Charlotte
GingerWright
April 7, 2000 - 09:22 pm
Victory Garden We did it before and we can do it again,and we will do it again. My rotertiller will come out of the garage but with some one younger to do the tilling, Not when I had to do it by hand, and I did.
I have enjoy all here, Thank you
Lurker, Ginger
Barbara St. Aubrey
April 7, 2000 - 11:37 pm
Aha Charlote tip - if the post isn't what I hoped and it won't let me make changes I copy it and then delete it and than start over by posting and removing or changing the offending part - the thing is though you have to do this before there are other posts especially if they are referring to yours since by deleting your post and starting over your post is in a different location or rather it has a different number.
Yes you have said it Wang doesn't see other ways to relate to his world...he is frozen to his traditional values. But then if Wang is a symnbol of the 'good earth' earth doesn't change does it.
Great photos Ginny - where ever are you finding them?
Charlotte J. Snitzer
April 8, 2000 - 05:45 am
Thanks for the tip Barb, but I hate to do all that retyping. I think I will not post in a heavy use time like 6:00 P.M. in future, or when on the kids are on after being released from school.
Charlotte
ALF
April 8, 2000 - 06:56 am
I do not wish to belabour this point but: I believe Wangs obsession with the acquision of land was totally self-serving.
His anger and inferiority could only be assuaged with wealth (money and land, in his eyes.) "There was such anger is
him now as he often could not express." His anger escalated to his hatred of the uncle and his family.
"the weakness of surrender in him melted into an anger such as he had never known in his life before." His
uncle and friends wanted to take his land from him. You can feel his anger and inferior status he experiences as the
derision of the uncle and friends is projected when they stood awaiting his anger to dissipate. The only way to
compensate for this subordinate status that he feels is for him to acquire wealth thru the Good Earth." The Good Earth
is his trophy in life.
The difference in the status of men and women thruout this novel is absolute! Yet, each character is true to his or her own self. Chinese, Maltese, American, French, it matters not. We are what we are and poor Wang WAS of the earth.
O-lan was a mother and wife. They all performed to the best of their capabilities, believing WHAT they did was
necessary. (infanticide, theft of jewels)
Education and Economic Development: Charolette,do you really believe that those things would have lead Wang to
better understanding of O-lan? I don't believe he gave a Whit about being more humane towards O-lan. He did not
argue of berate her ONLY because of his feelings of self-remorse. Education would not have sufficed, I fear.
Economic delvpl. would not have either, do you think? The further he prospered, the lazier he got. He had men to
work and develop his fields which just allowed him the fredom to further his enjoyment at the tea house.
OWN: Oh yes! He wanted to be the holder of the good earth. The master and possessor; the proprietor.
Ginny
April 8, 2000 - 07:00 am
The photos are from the paperback book with the same cover as in our heading, I thought not everybody would have them and so that's why we are putting them up there and Nellie V is making our own HTML page forever with them on it as we go.
I've been having nightmares about this thing. OK, just say today it all ends. Everything stops. The supermarkets close. There is no more electricity. Your freezer and your microwave do not work. Your food which you have spoils. YOu live in the city, what on earth are you going to do? YOu have a back yard, how many months of the year can you plant? You live in the country, what will you do?
Remember how Mao sent his high executives out into the countryside to spend time on the farm so as not to ever lose that touch? Does anybody happen to have that part of his THOUGHTS handy?
OK, I keep thinking, my husband saves the seed from the previous year, so we have seed. There are a lot of us in America, the seed stores would soon run out. We do have a horse. He does not fancy self a plow horse, but he would learn I guess. We do have an old turn plow. My husband is a hunter. We do have game. We could smoke the game; we did have a smokehouse but converted it into the chicken house, it could be chinked again and used again, hey...I know...but food is food.
WE have one chicken.There we would fall behind.
The thing is hanuting me.
When you talk about basic elemental stuff you forget where you live? What is your cat going to eat? Your dog? How important is it for you to feel you CAN survive? How realistic is it where YOU live?
This is the basis for almost all of the so called "Armageddon" novels, the Mad Max movies (Hey what are YOU going to do when the world ends???)
I think it's a different outlook on the world, those who feel they can and could survive, a completely different outlook.
How far would YOU go? Can't get the baby in the ashes out of my mind, BARBARA!!!!!!
Today we move on to the next section but we may have lost me back in the land of....CAN I do this?
What are your thoughts on the issues raised in this next part?
O-Ginny
Ginny
April 8, 2000 - 07:02 am
Andrea, we were posting together I totally agree, and I love everybody's opposing viewpoints. I'm anxious to see if I change my mind or anybody else changes theirs.
Charlotte: Buck herself completed the family saga in her next two books, and they are addictive reading for anybody who wants to see what might have happened!
Ginny
CharlieW
April 8, 2000 - 07:21 am
Like in the novel, Ginny - those of us in the frozen North might have to head South (at least as far as Pauline - sounds like you're pretty well prepared!!)
Notice how everyone's always inviting themselves to Ginny's???
ALF
April 8, 2000 - 07:35 am
Does this mean we will have to slay the old plow horse, if need be? The loyal, old, beloved plow horse!
SarahT
April 8, 2000 - 09:38 am
This is really a fascinating discussion. Can't get the book at the library - yet - but I just wanted to thank you all for some fascinating reading.
As a complete city slicker I wonder if I could survive just by working the land. I've travelled into some pretty primitive conditions, and even stayed awhile, but forever? Hard to say. . .
Great discussion.
Barbara St. Aubrey
April 8, 2000 - 09:39 am
I think the overwhelming nightmare of possibly being dependent on the land, for most of us Ginny, is that we have known something else and we have lost the skills and mindset of living off the land, crop to crop.
In the 20s during the dust bowl those from OK. moved in droves to Calif. and so moving to another location is what those dependent on the land have always done. Voila! we have migrants from Mexico.
That I learned, whenever families need cash or money, the man and young woman went off to work usually in the big cities of Mexico until they learned that they could make more money faster by going to the US. Some still go to Northern Mexico and work the orchards and Strawberry fields, all located on flat land just before the desert land of real Northern Mexico takes over the land. It is that desert land that the migrants must get through and often walk it. That is what takes so much out of them so that they look a rag tag when they finally get to the border. And of course we all can guess what happens to the young woman who do stay in Mexico to earn cash. They seldom return to their homes either.
To our situation - very seldom is there such a crisis that everything reverts to the basic componants of the earth. There was a time when diseases spread over a population and then havoc reigned. But even there the last pestilence that affected our population in great numbers was the Influenza of 1976 where the US experienced 17,000 deaths but that did not affect our national economy as did the various cases of dysentary most soldiers faced during the wars of the ninteenth century. Now in 1962 Mao's plan devistated the earth in China and they say the population was reduced by a third but there are no official numbers.
All in all I think we can wrap our thoughts around many possible experiences but being reduced to living off the land I think is so low on the list and if it really is a worry or curiosity-- spring is here and a perfect time to plant with the idea of trying it. After all Tasha Tudor lives in her New Hampshire farm with no electricty. She lives off the land with her animals as those did in the late eighteenth century and early ninteenth century. I believe one of her sons lives down the road now but with a few modern conveniences. What about a letter to her or her son and find out how it is done?
betty gregory
April 8, 2000 - 10:59 am
Why was it the "good" earth if Wang Lung needed possession of it to feel whole and why was it the "good" earth if it failed him?
I wonder how many sermons Pearl Buck heard as a child about the evil of material things, about how one could acquire many possessions but lose one's soul.
ALF
April 8, 2000 - 11:03 am
"Good" Betty, is like "beauty"--- it remains in the eye of the beholder. The earth didn't fail im. The gods failed him, his luck failed him, his resources failed him. HE was the good earth.
Ginny
April 8, 2000 - 01:25 pm
Fabulous question, Betty!! In the heading for further debate, love that take on it, Andrea.
I think Betty is on to something there, what do the rest of you think about that one?
You can all come any time, Charlie! hahahaahha It's funny but my best friend said the same thing around New Year's Eve, she said we'll just come up there and stay with you all if it all falls apart, hahahaha.
NOBODY is going to eat that old horse, he's NOT a plow horse, the very idea would earn you a kick, I'll let one of you harness him up!
hahahahahaa
Ginny
YiLi Lin
April 8, 2000 - 01:49 pm
good is one of those relative truths- while earth is an absolute. in relative perception one thing is good in relation to something else and perhaps bad in relationship to another- or in the case of this novel time seemed to create the relative value- there was a time for famine, a time for flood and a time for abundance from the earth.
funny how we humans have to "value" something as basic as the cycles of nature- and it is as if nature and this land and its locusts were trying to create balance - earth would give and take controlling population prosperity etc.
it is an interesting observation how much western technology including agricultural technology has pitted itself against nature and our continued abundance- the kind that makes barbara realize that land survival might be at the bottom of a concern list- has created a number of societal and biological ills. the disparity between rich and poor, inadequate nutrition because in effect there is no real food anymore- global competition, dominance games in the marketplace. i think that pearl buck was prophesizing, hoping we woudl see through literature a coming cycle whether in china politics or global.
just like the example of the mexicans who come to the us looking for more- if at some point some ONE would stop and accept his/her role in the scheme of things we could almost create a movement- one that might add a new dimension to this milennium. like gas prices- so just don't buy the vehicle getting 8-11 mi per gallon, how many people really need a toyota 4-runner or of all things a Mercedes SUV, walk to the local market, get the kids on bicycles instead of carpooling them, insist on equitable public transportation into the inner city and out to the suburbs, etc.
why am in on the soapbox today because i am experiencing a karmic event- can you believe it!!!! I finished reading the good earth last night and again what is it more than 40 years later- the book was due back to the library and I CANT FIND IT- same darn book as last time.
Ginny
April 8, 2000 - 02:01 pm
A Cycle! YiLi Lin, a CYCLE!! It's an omen, a GOOD omen!
Ginny
Charlotte J. Snitzer
April 8, 2000 - 09:37 pm
Hi All:
I'm not saying that these changes could ever occurred in Wang Lung's time. I am just saying that these things are for today, to show how far civilization has come and has yet to come. We need to share our expertise with the undeveloped countries of the world.
YILI: Ha Ha Ha. I can't believe you lost the book again.
Charlotte
CarolinColorado
April 9, 2000 - 06:06 am
I just want to say "Thank You" for choosing this rich book! It must be over 40 years since I have read this particular book of Bucks. Yi Li - good luck in finding your copy. I am impressed that the family has the gumption to leave the land and try to work to just survive. Still, W L doesn't know who really owns the land. We are only borrowers and hopefully good stewards.
Ginny: Thank you for passing along the information on Theresa Bloomingdale. So sorry for her family. She was too young! Carol
Deems
April 9, 2000 - 09:14 am
A fine morning to all---I'm just lurking here. Read The Good Earth a few years back and am enjoying reading the posts.
I did have a thought though. Given Pearl Buck's religious background, I think she may have chosen her title with Ecclesiastes in mind:
"Sheer futility, Qoheleth says. Sheer futility: everything is futile! What profit can we show for all our toil, toiling under the sun? A generation goes, a generation comes, yet the earth stands firm for ever. The sun rises, the sun sets; then to its place it speeds and there it rises." (Ecclesiastes 1:2-5, NJT)
Or in the more familiar KJV:
"Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity. What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun? One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever. The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down and hasteth to his place where he arose."
(Ec 1:2-5,KJV)
~Maryal
Malryn (Mal)
April 9, 2000 - 11:08 am
Despite the fact that it was suggested by someone, not a discussion leader or host, that I delete a message I posted the other night, I have decided to come in and say some of what I said in that deleted post.
I am a writer, and as such I may approach a book in a different way from some. This "apologia" is only to explain that approach.
Pearl Buck was primarily a writer trying to communicate with words. As such, she knew that if she did not capture her audience in the first few paragraphs of a book, she would lose that audience. Writers must give clues at the very beginning of a book about what the plot of the book is and how it might end in order to hold a reader. This is what Pearl Buck did in The Good Earth:
Buck starts the first chapter with the sentence, "It was Wang Lung's marriage day." Not long after that she says, "The fields needed rain for fruition. There would be no rain this day, but within a few days, if this wind continued, there would be water. It was good. Yesterday he had said to his father that if this brazen, glittering sunshine continued, the wheat could not fill in the ear. Now it was as if Heaven had chosen this day to wish him well. The Earth would bear fruit."
In the original post, I suggested that we look for what is in common between marriage and the earth and consider the symbolism of the union of a man and a woman and the fruition of the earth. (It might be well here to note the similarity to the Bible, which others have pointed out. "In the beginning, God created Heaven and the Earth." This is an afterthought which was not in my first, deleted post.)
Since I find nothing offensive or insulting here, I have decided to post this idea again. It seems extremely important to me, as does the knowledge that Pearl Buck, despite her acts of philanthropy and efforts for Eastern and Western women and various minorities, was first and foremost a writer. As such, she used the same writing devices that all good writers use. It might be well to think about what she said at the very start of this book, something many of us, myself included, have a tendency to slide over and ignore.
Mal
ALF
April 9, 2000 - 11:35 am
MAL: I have no recollection of reading that particular post that you were asked to delete. However, it sounds much akin to my post # 64. I agree 100% with your comments from the beginning page of PB book. This author is setting us up on the first page with her synopsis of Wangs marriage day.
Actually, I think we should discuss your point. What IS the correlation between marriage and the earth? Can we consider the symbolism of man and woman's "union" the fruition of the good earth? Even in the end we all are returned, are we not, to the good earth?
I do not find your correlations confrontational but rather significant.
Malryn (Mal)
April 9, 2000 - 11:41 am
Thanks, Andrea, but before you do anything else, please knock me on the knuckles with your ruler for saying "As such" three times in one post! Thanks, teach'! Maybe someday I'll learn how to write!
Mal
ALF
April 9, 2000 - 11:46 am
Mal: You are always the writer, always the teacher and always an interesting theorist.
YiLi Lin
April 9, 2000 - 12:24 pm
Yeah Mal thanks for reminding us all that an important aspect of the reading is the writing.
Judy Laird
April 9, 2000 - 01:50 pm
O.K. Ginny I got it. Just got back from the book store.
Charlotte J. Snitzer
April 9, 2000 - 01:58 pm
Mal:
Right on!! I'm with your comment all the way.
Charlotte
Ginny
April 9, 2000 - 02:20 pm
Way to go, Judy, you will really like this book, it's totally worth the read.
Maryal, that's so good, I totally missed that connection of course, and we've talked of cycles continually!!! Way to go! Great point!
Malryn (boy those names are close, aren't they?) I see nothing deletable in your post and certainly nobody asks people to delete posts here, I saw no mention of a problem post anywhere, you are free to post what you like.
I think you are on to something with your man/ woman thing as I saw a quote from Buck herself to that regard somewhere in one of those sites, maybe I can go find it.
I'm not sure, however, that the same emphasis was on to capture the reader in the first few paragraphs in 1931 is now, was it? Most of the books written then take forever to get to the point. She was different in that, perhaps.
I think, and I think Betty commented earlier on this, that her writing is quite unique. As I recall, Betty, did you not think too much of the particular style? I may have misunderstood that one? Did you think it was done for a purpose, I find it very profound, it reminds me of Animal Farm for some reason but I don't know why.
I myself, as we can see, tend to go on and on and on I do so apreciate brevity.
How do you all see the Wang family now? Still sympathetic?
Is there a clash here between morality and custom and is there ever a time when the two CAN be opposites?
Were there other options than infanticide?
Ginny
Ginny
April 9, 2000 - 02:33 pm
This is a great quote, I put it up in the heading:
"Good is one of those relative truths- while earth is an
absolute"---YiLi Lin
That may be the crux of the entire book's premise because I see this section heavy on morality and the perception of necessity and "good." And in 2000 it's our perceptions that matter, is it not? Our TV, what is it they call our spin doctors and our "takes" on things and the "party line?" And so when we come up against this absolute, this earth and the sheer FORCE of it. The rains, the sun, the drought, then it's one thing we can't explain away or rationalize or throw our own...what IS that word, over?
Dust to dust. When we're through spinning the truth (what IS that saying) the earth will still be there. So then are we sort of leaning toward saying that Buck seeems to be saying that....WHAT?
Ginny
Larry Hanna
April 9, 2000 - 02:48 pm
I did not get the sense that Wang Lung ever blamed the land for the problems that befell the area where he lived and caused the starvation and tragic events they experienced. While the drought, and even the later floods, were disaster, they were not unexpected events and the people expected them every five to seven years. The fact that these events described in the book were extremely long lasting and devastating still did not cause Wang Lung to blame the land.
I don't recall ever reading a book that so effectively described total devastation and despair. The character so far that I am most impressed with is not Wang Lung but rather O-lan. Without her it would appear he would not have amounted to very much and yet he doesn't seem to appreciate what her contribution has been.
This books certainly stresses the role of our culture in the way things are. The status, or lack thereof, of women with girl children being referred to as slaves and fools seems very telling and something so foreign to the culture we know in this day and age.
Interesting parallel in the story to todays society when we see the attitute of the uncle and his family expecting the handouts and todays welfare class. In the city to the south we saw the exhibition of the concern for the poor with the feeding stations just as we see the willingness of today's society to be charitable.
This is a most enjoyable book and one I had never read before.
Larry
Barbara St. Aubrey
April 9, 2000 - 03:06 pm
Oh my yes Mal, your thought makes perfect sense to me...in fact in my mind the gods are made of earth and are prayed to for the blessings of abundance, Wang is of the earth and with O-lan produces abundance physically, emotionaly, and with their hands they are creating abundance in field and home, in their community. Marriage seems only to be a legal binding of man and woman toward the creation of abundance as the silver is the means toward the legal binding that gives them the opportunity to create abundance from the earth. Come to think of it silver was used by Wang to precure his bride. Hmmm didn't see the connection before that a wife and the land require silver that represents Wang's sweet in the fields.
They both share their moral judgement as how others are not adding to the abundance, either the family of the Uncle or the House of Hwang.
The scene outside the wall reminds me of the story of all immigrants. The many Asians that come to Austin, often to go to UT, and because of no history in the States are not accepted in the nice apartment complexes. They live huddled in a not so good area of town. Many have some English but are not aware of the finer points and have bought cat food to eat. I have shown condos on the market that some Asian students are leasing. Often there is a rolled up sleeping and sitting blanket for each person living in the unit, one change of clothes and towel in the bathroom, chop sticks and bowl, a steamer and a huge barrel of rice in the middle of the floor--period, that is it.
The Mexican workers are also huddled together in old houses that at least have floors as compared to their homes in Mexico. But again, they work the hardest jobs for very low pay, living without their family, with no way to contact them, hiding their earnings in whatever nook and cranny works and then hiding it on their person when they go back to their villages just before Christmas, hoping they aren't robbed on the way. You can always tell a new wetback carpenter or brick layer or bus boy by the dazed look in their eyes, the tell tale sign they are overwhelmed and do not understand what is going on, trying to hold on to a little dignity. We don't have the migrant field workers here although, those with families winter over here and to the south of Austin.
I wonder if that is why so many people have a problem accepting the workers from Mexico. They are not immigrants with plans to stay but are more like Wang and his family, needing a way to exhist and hopefully accumulate enough money to pay for a village school teacher, a plow, some concrete to make a floor in their thatched adobe house, or buy the materials to build a cictern outside their home, or for that matter more land that is enough to support a few heads of cattle which in Mexico takes as much acerage per head as a horse does here.
The loss of dignity that becomes the lot of Wang and O-Lan with city rules, the way, the law, rather than, the natural law of sun, wind and rain ruling them and their fields. This loss is really a symbol of the loss of dignity we experience, though seldom speak about, when we work for someone else. Rather than being the stewart and dependent on our own skills, energy and property, creating abundance with our own plan, and direction we become dependent on someone elses desires and rules.
Seems to me this is a time in history when many families, all over the world, were leaving the rural countryside for the cities where there were jobs and educational opportunities for their children. I guess that sacrifice was needed so that enough wealth could be accumulated in a nation and than the tax coffers became large enough tø build rural schools, roads and hospitals providing benefits for all.
GingerWright
April 9, 2000 - 07:52 pm
Barbra Well put. I enjoy this discussion when I can get here. To all of you I thank you.
Ginger
betty gregory
April 9, 2000 - 11:17 pm
Such thoughtful observations, Barbara, on various groups of immigrants in the Austin area. Houston has grown even more international since I was here last with countries all over the world represented.
Two weeks ago, after my new apartment building suffered an all night water leak, all carpet pads were removed and fans blew air underneath soaked carpets for 2 days. Then the 3 men from the carpet company came to reinstall the carpet throughout the apartment. None of the 3 could speak any English at all. Not a word. Occasionally the maintenance mgr. would come in and out and act as a go-between, translating my near-frantic messages to them about (1) my good desk that was outside in the misting rain, (2)their refusal to pay attention to or participate in a sort of hand-signal communication with me, etc., etc. Finally, about 2 hours into the installation, close to noon, in a mostly selfish attempt to get them to "talk" to me, I started a pot of coffee, a skillet of bacon, made a line of my good plates next to jars of mayonaise, peanut butter, jelly, pickles, stacks of cheese, smoked turkey, sliced tomatoes, lettuce, cantelope, bananas, cans of diet coke, tomato juice, apple juice. That cleared out my frig, pretty much. The maintenance mgr. came in and I said "Lunch. Right now." Anyway, talk about the iron curtain coming down. I had no idea how quickly or effectively this would work. Three people who finally made eye contact came to lunch. And "listened" to my hand gestures. Furniture was transfered. Someone spent a long time rubbing down the desk. Much, much later, as they were leaving, I got to see someone's wife and baby pictures---as the other two made fun of him. It was a good ending to 3-4 really bad days for me. I've resolved to think of this day when I'm so filled with rage about something that I'm paralyzed. Which, I'm not proud to say, happens too often.
Speaking of communication and the comic mishaps even among those who speak the "same" language....Mal, I only wanted you to delete your one-line apology to me, as I deleted my one-line snooty recap and analysis of your first post. You deleted both your posts, which was never my intention. So, I'm really glad to see the rewrite on your thoughts of Buck's relationship between marriage and the earth. Makes me think of all sorts of things that pair the two. Reproduction and other things, as you said, and seasons, fertile or non-fertile soil, seeds that bear fruit that bear seeds that bear fruit and so on, feeding or nurturing and what happens when that is absent, the serendipity of outside forces. Renewal.
I always do want to hear from a writer's perspective what I might be missing. Even though I don't usually look for the author's overall picture in the first chapter of a book, I do have the habit of going back to read the first pages when I'm about mid-way through a book. I'm still enough of a novice at judging or discussing books, so maybe I'm not ready until midway through to "see" the signs at the first.
Ginny, exactly, the clash between custom and morality. I spent years in classroom discussions trying to find ways to defend ethnic customs, even if they didn't quite fit our current U.S. "morality." Multiple gods, various harmless-enough perceptions of children, marriage, religion. Where I changed my mind and therefore, my outlook, came with learning about mutilation of young girls' genitals. Now I find it easier to draw the line.
One thing we haven't discussed. There are views today of the limited earth, not the will always be here...limitless earth of 1931. Buck's view of humans being one with and of the earth is different than the current caretaker role that environmentalists propose. Of course, a good deal of damage has taken place since 1931.
Malryn (Mal)
April 10, 2000 - 05:05 am
What strikes me as I read further into this book is that it is an allegory. At this point it seems to me that Pearl Buck is preaching a sermon here, not about Wang Lung and O-Lan and their struggle to survive, but about a facet of mankind which has existed practically since time began. Buck's sermon in The Good Earth is about the "Haves" and the "Have Nots".
There are constant references to the earth. The earth represents stability and wealth in the form of food. Humans are equated to the earth. "The woman and the child were as brown as the soil and they sat there like figures made of earth."
Facing starvation, Wang Lung and his family flee south to the city. It is there he is handed papers which show Jesus on the cross. Ignorant of everything outside what he has learned in his culture, Wang Lung fears these pictures, but he remembers that O-Lan needs paper for the soles of the shoes she makes and repairs, so he takes them to her.
He is given another paper which shows the stab wounds of a man who looks much like himself. A teacher says to him and others, "The dead man is yourselves, and the murderous one who stabs you when you are dead and do not know it are the rich and the capitalists, who would stab you even after you are dead."
Wang Lung listens to this; then finds courage enough to ask, "Sir, is there any way whereby the rich who oppress us can make it rain so that I can work on the land?"
The teacher scoffs at Wang, and replies, "If the rich would share with us what they have, rain or not would matter none, because we would all have money and food."
Wang Lang is not satisfied with this answer. He concludes to himself that "Yes, but there is the land. Money and food are eaten and gone, and if there is not sun and rain in proportion, there is famine again." I think the scenes described above are very significant. I believe they spell out the lesson Pearl Buck is teaching in this book.
What is universal here is that the same conditions which Buck describes exist today, even in this rich country. Her lesson is not new, nor has the problem been solved. For that reason, I urge you to click the link below and click the box which says, "Donate free food" on the Hunger Site page which will come on your screen. Every time you click that box, about 2 cups of food is donated by sponsors to starving people all over the world. If you bookmark the site, you can donate free food every day if you like.
The Hunger Site
Mal
CarolinColorado
April 10, 2000 - 08:01 am
Mal: We found out about the Hunger Site months ago & now it is a daily routine. Thanks for putting it on a clickable.
Do you believe Buck is poking fun at the way some of the missionaries handed out pictures of Jesus and expecting people to suddenly "know" the story and convert? Maybe poking fun isn't the correct verbage but do any of you think that she believed the story of Christianity was an embarrassemnt to her in the way it was presented? Carol
Barbara St. Aubrey
April 10, 2000 - 09:25 am
Mal be and do please-- a repeat never hurt the soul- none of this apologizing for your posts please. As long as we are all respectful, we all have our openions and passions! Seniornet B&L has always been a place to post both. We may not all agree but that is how we are learning from each other and repeating a link is great for someone that hadn't seen it earlier.
I know hunger is a horrible scourge in this day and age and affects all of us that eat regularly as a wave of guilt as well as feelings of generosity to help so simply those in need. But my concern reading this story has awakened for me the hunger of our spirit rather then the body.
Betty brought up the current land use. I'm wondering if the real culpret isn't land use versus enviornmental issues so much as, the large Corperations that now own and farm these very large tracks of land with these monster mashines. It reminds me of how at first Wang thought earning so much money by pulling a rickshaw was beyond what he could earn from his fields-- earned so quickly and yet because of costs his money did not give him the abundant life he had experienced when his fields produced.
I think for, as they used to say the 'quick Buck' and certainly to save time, we end up selling our souls. Simple example; some of the frozen dinners are really good and I must confess I got into the habit, cooking for one, of using them frequantly. I am now irritated with cooking so that I must recapture the 'Joy' of cooking and also, the sodium is so high in the frozen dinners my ankles are consistently swollen and of course I am not eating enough vegtables since the frozen dinner stints on vegtables in favor of starch and gravey that I am convinced has sugar in it.
How many of us actually buy good shoes and use an old fashioned shoe maker to repair, resole and reheal our shoes. It wasn't too many years ago I sewed most of the clothes etc. we used. Yes, cloth has become so expensive now that it hardly pays but the pride of creating and producing is now also gone. All small examples of the promise of ease, less time, less thinking and energy has taken more from me than I realized when I made those choices.
My life is more about earning by pleasing others and using that earned money to buy my basics from others. Each year my basics seem to increase. Communication alone has quadrupled. Now I seldom write the notes that were lovely to recieve but instead it is email and the net-- which is one fee...than the phone bill is three times what it was just a few years ago...there is my long distance carrier adding to my expense and now in a seperate bill... and of course the cell and pager which in today's world, in my business, you are considered an archaic if you do not lease, because it is soooo important to carry out business instantly...and than the fax mashine is an addition expected in addition to an overnight currior service.
The one benefit is, there are more people employed over the course of putting a transaction together but we seem to be further removed from the direct contact of just a few years ago. The hustle and comparison of the cost of the means, seems to be as important as the simple curtesy of communication that took some thoughtful language and a practiced hand in writting. This all reminds me of Pearl S. Buck's people of the South needing to go heither and yon by a quickly moving richshaw rather then the definite walk with time to stop on the way home and pray to the gods.
The joy some of us feel when our Christmas is all hand made is a feeling we seldom have the remaining months of the year and the concept that time is our friend is also lost. The collage bound seldom study to deepen their understnding of themselves and life but to obtain a better paying job where they sell their soul, their skills and education to the highest bider.
Yes this is making me re-evaluate how I use my time becuase I can see now some of my time is used to patch this empty hole of this feeling of being needy that developes when I am not the stewart of my skills, time and energy but that I sell myself to others. In this economy I may not be in a position to stop selling myself but I sure can re-think and change what I am doing with my time.
Hmmmm I wonder if all that self-confidence of being a stewart over your self is the basis for the confidence and 'can do' mentality of the "Greatest Generation", when homemakers canned most of the winter meals that they or their neighbor grew and sewed the clothes, mended not only the shoes but the sox and entertainment is what you created without turning a knob.
Ginny
April 10, 2000 - 11:12 am
Was rushing past when I saw our Larry's fine post, so glad to see him again. That's a great point he made, too, as have you all.
Will be back but wanted to comment on Carol's post that I, too, have been struck by Pearl Buck's presentation in all her books and writings of the lack of effectiveness of the Missionaries. I get the same feeling, exactly.
I remember reading years ago about how she felt about, of all things, hymn singing, and it wasn't positive. Perhaps we need to look a little more into that aspect of this very complex person whose life was certainly affected by her very ineffective Missionary father.
Shades of the Poisonwood Bible, here, folks?
Back later!
Ginny
Ed Zivitz
April 10, 2000 - 11:17 am
In case anyone is interested:
On Monday, May 22,2000 at 6:30 PM at the Philadelphia Art Alliance,there will be a lecture by Robert Griffeths on Pearl S. Buck
as part of their Great Women Writers series.
Admission is free ( but you need a ticket)..If anyone is interested, please e-mail me & I will forward the particulars.
betty gregory
April 10, 2000 - 11:19 am
Hi, Barb. You touched all my buttons regarding the items that bring us "convenience" through technology. To some extent, I even regret my siblings and my convincing my parents to hurry up and get email. That put an end to my mother's several handwritten letters a month to each of 5 children. I've kept all her letters in storage boxes through the years, feeling comforted to know that I had them. I was also a much better letter writer (by hand) than I am now with email. Handwritten letters, for me, are in the same category as books. The physical holding of a book cannot be replaced with fleeting computer images. The generic type on a screen has none of the personal shapes and choices of paper and familiar handwriting. I don't think my son or his future children will yearn for the slower, more personal handwritten letter, though. It won't be part of his experiences.
Too many choices. Too much technology---that's what I think of, Barbara. (Although there's no such thing as too much technology in medical research, for example.) But consumer products. Just walk down the cereal isle in the grocery store. Ridiculous. Too many choices trigger a really unhealthy reaction in me---trying to get something "just right." 2nd cousin to perfectionism. Therefore, making decisions can be put off or agonized over for too long. I just bought a vacuum cleaner and had to research them all over the internet---I don't have to spell out the good and bad sides of that.
Mal, my reaction to Wang Lung's being handed a paper representing a foreign culture's religious symbols was a sharp, outloud laugh at Pearl Buck's thinly veiled criticism of the Christian missionaries. Details in her biography tell of her disdain for similar practices. I think she shows great respect for the common-ness of the simplest people, those closest to the earth. Your words about "preaching a sermon," however, sure rang true for me---something about cadence (as Charlie mentioned) and repetition of characters' behavior. And repetition of points she wants driven home---very sermon-like.
YiLi Lin
April 10, 2000 - 11:35 am
glad you see it too, barbara. got a call from a professional this weekend, we chatted about needed vacation time. he said that he could not consider time off because he had cluttered up his life with too many nonessentials to do. TADA- but he really didn't get it, didn't see that after identifying that these things were not essential and were cluttering his life that the next step was to just stop and make room for the essentials.
might be very naive here but i still think that a collective refusal to continue to buy into controlling societal expectations could alter the course of our social development. and as you know, social norms become cultural norms and that creates the moral order. things keep up it will be IMMORAL to not speak on a cell phone while driving- and who knows perhaps you'll face a vehicular manslaughter charge if you DON'T kill someone at least once a month while driving and talking on the phone (hehehehehe).
in a way Wang Lung's ignorance of the social/political changes around him might encourage us to reflect on the difference between not taking action because you don't know there is a need for it, vs. not taking action as an ACTION. What I liked about my perception of O-Lan is that she was a woman who did and did not as a result of her own choice- she did not whine about a choiceless society or rage at the gods, she simply acknowledged the "absolute" (famine, flood, Lotus)and created a relative reality that met her and her family's survival needs.
betty gregory
April 10, 2000 - 01:03 pm
I'll have to blame (praise?) these B&L folks for making me curious to know an author. Lots of that going on here and I've caught the bug, finally. But I know you're right, Mal, the book has to stand alone in it's effectiveness.
Between you and Barbara, I've had bells going off all afternoon. I, too, know the problems of serious illness in childhood and of poverty, but where your father was absent, mine, unfortunately, was not. Those issues go on and on...for me. Thanks for reminding us that we come to the reading from who we are and what we have experienced in life. I'm always knocked over by the power of someone's history....and so moved by what you wrote.
Ginny
April 10, 2000 - 02:30 pm
All we are about here in the Books and Literature is our own opinions? And each of us is entitled to them, no matter what they are or what our backgrounds may be.
We are entitled to how we feel, each of us, and it's thru these discussions that we learn so much about each other that is truly important and makes us all feel closer.
I treasure our experiences here. There are NO right or wrong answers or opinions. If you don't agree with me, why then, you don't agree with me. We will agree to disagree.
That's what makes our discussions here so interesting.
I hope I can go back to Larry's post soon, he made a point I really want to take up! hahahah
This is SUCH a hot discussion! It's hard to get anything answered.
Ginny
Barbara St. Aubrey
April 10, 2000 - 07:59 pm
This concept of being part of earth, time and a stewart of our own dreams and skills that so many of us have lost as we became dependent on the promises made for ease, more time as well as, new and therefore, better and faster has really caught me by the tail.
Many aspects of the book I do not feel I can do anything about like, woman are still running behind and in may places in this world are horribly surpressed. That female infanticide is still alive and well along with the murder of so many woman for acting in ways men do not like. Just in our own country hundreds of murders each year in each state by abusive husbands and boyfriends never mind that 2 out of every 10 girls are sexually abused. That isn't even touching the hunger that is often the result of politics coupled with natural disaister effecting still so many. It is so easy to be overwhelmed by it all. The need for power at the expense of others seems to be a theme and is different than those living with the forces that be, attempting self-empowerment by becoming a benefit to others.
I think of the posts; Betty's feast breaking down barriers, Yili Lin trying to enlighten a fellow prof to follow his heart and not his head, Ed generously offering tickets, Mal providing us with the 'Hunger' site and Carol already helping the hungry for several months, on and on the little acts that are the pebbles thrown in the pool of human support for self-empowerment. I still unfortunatly have this childlike concept that change for good could happen in one fell swoop rather than in small consistant everyday actions.
Reading this book is for me almost like reading a prayer. The story makes me feel so reverent. Well if y'all will suffer me I was at it again - this theme of loss and hopefully we regain before we're unable, I tried to express and little by little I am learning to express myself in a poetic form. So here is my working attempt.
-
It's easy, it's fun said Scheherazade.
We'll needn't pick apples nor golden rod,
Our fingers and eye will hunt as Nimrod.
The hucksters they call, skilled as Hesiod
With promise of silver and cinnabar.
Running our rickshaw as an isobar
We weave his dream and play his charade
The cold wind grieves loss as did Abelard.
Gorging our wants we wear a brassard
Marking the blossoms of our boneyard.
While butterflys linger over his Asgard,
Will we dance our song in the waiting vineyard?
Hungry with autumn, goblins line a scorecard.
Sparce are the stars, fireflies disregard.
Dew beads in moonlight, blow a vanguard
To old ghosts complaining, in promenade.
The jewels of Hwang hiding in our timberyard
Quietly waiting, loom weaving Jacquard
Caught between warp and woof calling-- Regard,
The rivers and lakes are tumbling roughshod.
Sweet on your brow, sow drifts to Archernar,
Drop diamonds in corners with songs of Aisha.
Harvest your glory, offer ribbons peau de soie,
With prayer whispered softly to the great Amen-Ra.
Charlotte J. Snitzer
April 11, 2000 - 04:26 am
You are right on. I hate cell phones and SUV's too.
Charlotte
ALF
April 11, 2000 - 04:53 am
Barbara< : what an ideal poem for these thoughts-
I don't know why I didn't realize it WAS reverence I was feeling during
this read. I found myself at many points, just sitting, closing my
eyes and feeling sad- thoughtful, almost.
ED: I wish that I were closer to Pa. so I could go
to this art alliance discussion on Ms. Buck. Anybody here going
to be able to make it?
Mal and Betty and CAROL: Don't you feel that their
religion was "the good earth?" That was what they
were devoted to and worshiped. Their land was sacred to them &
they took a spiritual delight in it. Such imagery. < What else could PB possibly have named this novel?
BARBARA says: But my concern reading this story has
awakened for me the hunger of our spirit rather then the body. This
is great stuff ladies!!! Do you think he sold his soul, Barb?
what a provocative statement you've made about "feeling needy when you
not the stewart of your skills, time and energy." I understand that
completly.
GINGER: We miss your input. Are you still lurking?
YiLi: You have written-- " What I liked about my perception
of O-Lan is that she was a woman who did and did not as a result of her
own choice- she did not whine about a choiceless society or rage at the
gods, she simply acknowledged the "absolute" (famine, flood, Lotus)and
created a relative reality that met her and her family's survival needs."
Recently Derpok Chopar (?sp) said that one needs to ignore the negative
influences around them. <b>By ignoring them, they become unimportant,
lessened in severity. They lose power and energy and will become
insignificant.< Do you believe that was what o-lan was attempting?
CarolinColorado
April 11, 2000 - 07:56 am
ALF: Regarding your question on the good earth itself being the religion - the religion to me seems to come from the ownership of the land. Wang Lung feeds, protects and tills his own land with pleasure - a higher sense of pleasure for him than his family or the shallow playmate he brings home. The land itself brings back a sense of what is right to him after a costly waste of time and energy during his mid-life crisis. This is what strikes me this particular morning at 9:00 A.M. I may feel different in twenty minutes or after I read what someone else has to write in regards to your question.
Have a great day! Carol
YiLi Lin
April 11, 2000 - 08:29 am
Power is awarded- so if one does not award it, the "other" doesn't have it-
so in response to the query about supporting Choprak's notion- i am not sure power or events are really positive or negative- but i certainly agree that how one chooses to perceive an event awards that event with significance or not. i don't intend to sound like these are easy tasks- in the same way i don't think O-Lan had an easy life or found it easier to live the life she created- but unlike Barbara i truly believe that it is the small gestures that enhance one's journey. I put great effort (especially on those sorta bad days) to be grateful for a smile, someone not pushing ahead on a line, the kids dropping in for a visit - even when they track muddy shoes on the newly washed floor. Yes sometimes this takes work.
I don't wait for externals, including someone else's promises to direct my life or the perceptions I have of the events I encounter. It is my belief that even though we gain some psychological benefit from outer directing our lives- the i can't syndrome- i can't go to x because i have no money, i can't have a nice car because my job is x etc.- these scripts suggest No Blame (using a phrase from the I Ching) but in the long run i believe we wind up living someone else's definition of our life and certainly cut ourselves off from opportunities for joy. somehow we intellectualize that we can't take it with us but don't live that way.
That is a strong trait I see in O-Lan, she truly lives each moment of her life, sati- an absolute awareness of the present. Wang Lung when you think about it, keeps thinking of the future- what he could have if...if....if.... and then suddenly he's an old man and still iffing.
ALF
April 11, 2000 - 10:26 am
Carol: good point. Is it the earth itself or the ownership of it? I don't know. I have the feeling that the earth itself beckons
him. He says "If I had the gold and the silver and the jewels, I would buy land with it, good land, and I would
bring forth harvests from the land!" He is proud.
He worked like a dog on his earth; tilling, planting, cultivating, reaping. I had the sense that he WAS of the land-- he
wanted to become the earth rather than the earth overcome him. His reverence and piety was for the earth, the dirt,
the soil. Even tho his downfall was greed and laziness, he still worshipped his god-- the earth.
YiLi: You are correct! Choprack was saying that ones thoughts are positive or negative. Not so much events as
feelings.
Malryn (Mal)
April 11, 2000 - 11:03 am
No, Andrea, I don't think the earth was a religion to Wang Lung. Some years ago I had a good friend in New York, a poorly educated man much older than I was. He was a fine craftsman, one of the best I'd ever seen, and made things I admired. He taught me much, not just about craftsmanship. When I asked where he learned to spin and weave and garden as he did, he laughed. He then told me he had grown up to the age of 19 as a peasant in the Slovak part of what became Czechoslovakia. At that age he left and came to the United States.
His parents had managed to save enough money they earned farming for the rich man of the valley in Slovakia where they lived to buy a piece of land on which they built a two room cottage from lumber they cut from trees on the land and grew what they ate. They had chickens and wild game for meat as well as sheep whose wool they used to weave their coats and clothes they wore. Winter socks were knitted with wool they spun. In the summer they didn't wear any. Flax was grown to weave lighter weight clothing. Shoes they made by hand with whatever they had, including fabric they wove. Boards cut from felled trees were used to make furniture.
This friend of mine told me that the land was the most important thing they had because without it they had nothing, no security at all and could not survive. To the day he died, he had a great respect for the earth that was his and clung to it. Even before he moved upstate to the country, when he worked in a factory doing maintenance and living in a factory row house he owned in Yonkers, this man grew the most beautiful roses and the best vegetables in the small amount of land he owned that I have ever seen and cherished that land. I think Wang Lung was the same. I think all people who exist this way have the same strong feeling for the earth.
It is beyond the comprehension of most of us because we've never had to live as these people do. Perhaps it is easier for us to think of using capital, if one is lucky enough to have any, to the point where there is no money left at all when we think about how these people felt about losing the only real capital they had. Peal Buck brings up silver, gold and jewels, but it is the earth that has the real value and meaning.
By the way, I have not changed my opinion that this book is an allegory.
Mal
betty gregory
April 11, 2000 - 11:08 am
YiLi Lin, you wrote of Wang Lung's focus on the future, "what he could have, if, if, if..." This calls to mind characters in Waiting, with whole lives spent waiting for changes that would transform them. I really like and agree with ideas you express so well, such as power relinquished to external expectations from family, friends, the culture at large. A word I use sometimes in place of power is "energy." (Power covers the idea better but "energy" fits how I think of it.) How easily we give away our energy, our spiritual and physical energy, in this never ending effort to measure-up to those external demands of what "should" be---demands we've taken in so well that we often can't tell if they are still "out there" or inside us. And here's what floors me...you'd think that thinking about these things intellectually would have helped me not give away power/energy, that I'd be on guard and never do it. Yeah, right.
Carol, ownership of the land, you wrote, was the religion, not the land. Makes me think of the root of all evil---not money, but the love of money. "Shallow playmate he brought home." Is this O-Lan? Pow! I don't know if this is a greater put-down to Wang Lung or O-Lan. Even given the Chinese culture in the pre-revolutionary times, you really don't like her? Or you don't like Wang Lung's use of her? Or both? I can guess 20 reasons, but I'd rather hear what you think.
GingerWright
April 11, 2000 - 11:46 am
ALF, I am justing getting caught up in here.
The land is very important to all nations as our food comes from it. My people all farmers, lumberjacks etc. all aprieciated the land, the weather and were very thankfull for a good crop, so we have (thanksgiving day) in this nation.
I have recently been told that if you have lots of land in England you are thought to be very rich. WE will understand all of our thoughts on how we use our land in the very near future as we are abusing it so much in so many ways. Ginger
betty gregory
April 11, 2000 - 11:55 am
Mal, we were posting at the same time. The story of your friend goes right to the heart of what we're reading. I agree with you that living that connection to the land is not something most (any?) of us have experienced. So, our understanding is at a distance. Your story did call to mind how I'm mourning the dense stand of old Spruce I left behind in Oregon December 8th. That thick forest around the pitiful cottage/cabin I lived in saw me through 5 years. I'll tell more about those trees some time. Been in and out of depression since leaving there so my perspective on bottom line causes is a bit screwy. I do think the trees miss me.
ALF
April 11, 2000 - 01:01 pm
Mal: what a great tale about your slavik friend. Wang and his family were forced into eating the earth, mixed with water & made into gruel. They called it "goddess of mercy earth." I likened it to communion.
Didn't you love O-lans calmness which "carried more strenth than all of Wang's anger?" such simplicity in these characters, YET each are profound in their own ways.
Malryn (Mal)
April 11, 2000 - 01:45 pm
Betty I'm sure your spruce trees do miss you.
There's too much mention of Wang Lung's and O-Lan's gods to signify any religious worship of the earth, in my estimation, Andrea. Eating gruel made from soil is a desperate act and not a holy one. I think the only real thought they had was filling their bellies.
My friend was a devout Catholic, or whatever his particular semi-literate interpretation of what Catholic was. I can remember his going out a hill on his acres one time when there was a drought, and the little town of Patterson, New York, where he then lived, declared a restriction on watering lawns and gardens. He raised his arms to the sky and said, "Why are you doing this to me and my gardens, God, when I was at the Church and took Communion last week?"
Mal
CharlieW
April 11, 2000 - 03:00 pm
Really, Mal? That's exactly like Wang Lung in Ch 9: "There was such anger in him now as he often could not express. At times it seized him like a frenzy so that he rushed out upon his barren threshing floor and shook his arms at the foolish sky that shone above him, eternally blue and clear and cold and cloudless."
"Oh, you are too wicked, you Old Man in Heaven!" he would cry recklessly.
Malryn (Mal)
April 11, 2000 - 04:10 pm
Thank you, Charlie. I saw that, and I guess it's a fairly universal cry. My friend, John Grech, moved to Florida from Patterson, New York about a year after I did. I found a lot for his new doublewide mobile home which I chose for him and had set up in the Sea Ranch mobile home development on Anastasia Island, off the coast of St. Augustine near where I lived, before he came down. John was 79 then, and I helped him and took care of him the last few years of his life until he died because I was grateful for help he gave me when my marriage ended. Up until the week before he died at 85, he was out sitting in a chair trying to tend his garden as often as I could get him out there, though he was very weak and getting him out was a struggle for both of us. A man who was never educated, he lived by instinct and emotion and loved his land. My daughter and I still have some wall plaques he made from tree bark, fungi and flowers he dried.
All of John's story that I've posted here is true, and my kids and I miss him very much. My daughter, who has read these posts agrees.
Mal
CharlieW
April 11, 2000 - 04:19 pm
Another thought remembered from The Poisonwood Bible - Andrea, mentioned the "goddess of mercy earth" which reminded me of a starch tuber sort of food from the Kingsolver book that was similar - a food that had very little nutrition but somehow sustained life - it's name meant something similar as I recall (to goddess of mercy earth).
Ella Gibbons
April 11, 2000 - 06:57 pm
Malryn, my brother-in-law loved the land that he was born on, the 100 acres that sufficed for his family when he was young and I can see him still looking out the window longingly at the land that was his, but it would no longer support he and my sister and their children. He had to go to work in town to survive and he farmed 40 acres of it on weekends and leased the rest. It paid the taxes only; but how he longed to spend each day out there, it was in his blood, his genes; it had been in his family for 3 generations. And to keep the 100 acres intact he had to buy his sisters and brother's share from them after the death of his parents.
What do all of you think of Wang Lung punishing his son for stealing in the city; but when the revolution came he stole from the rich man himself? As did O-lan.
Malryn (Mal)
April 11, 2000 - 08:21 pm
Wang Lung was trying to teach his son right from wrong. As I recall the rich man gave Wang Lung the gold because he was afraid Wang Lung would kill him. In an uprising like a revolution, the downtrodden take what they believe was stolen from them and feel very justified in what they do because of persecution by the rich upon the poor. I think we should remain aware that O-Lan was a slave and badly treated. That fact explains a lot of her behavior.
Mal
ALF
April 12, 2000 - 01:02 pm
We, in the US, are much accustomed to freedom. What did you think when the crowd forced the great gates open and PB wrote " he knew that at the gates of all rich men there pressed this howling multitude of men and women who had been starved and imprisoned and now were for the moment free to do as they would."
It was like mass hysteria, a rampant fire, out of control.
Ella Gibbons
April 12, 2000 - 02:00 pm
What is the justification for looting? Being poor? A revolution? If that is true, what can we say when a riot breaks out in L.A, for example, and the poor and downtrodden break into stores and do the looting?
Malryn (Mal)
April 12, 2000 - 02:57 pm
The message is the same, though the situation is different. In an organized political upheaval such as a revolution, there is a kind of majority rule which was not the case in Los Angeles. What about the American Revolution? In my opinion, that's a very good example of what Pearl Buck was trying to get across in this part of the book. I feel sure that those who revolted against taxation without representation and other unfair practices of the British over the colories here in North America felt very justified in whatever they did.
Mal
Barbara St. Aubrey
April 12, 2000 - 03:15 pm
Ella this is how I see it - a revolution whether it be in China or the streets of Los Angeles according to the dictionary is simply a sudden political owerthrow or seizure of power brought about from within a given system or Activities directed toward bringing about basic changes in the socioeconomic structue, as of a minority or cultural segment of the population.
OK with that definition we can add that few revolutions are successfu without an army or masses of people greater than those in power forcing the confrantation. Right or wrong, havic and mob misconduct is usally part of the confrantation. Emotionally we can see how those revolting had been taken advantage and their behavior is part of the revolutionary process. Unfortunatly, the Los Angeles revolution, as most revolutions in this country, do not have enough power to win in order to change things and therefore, the behavior of those attempting to make change are treated by the victorious as criminal.
Realizing our nation wrought havic and destroyed property during the Revolutionary War - throwing tea in a harbor to firing-on and killing British soldiers, we seldom read stories of individual's criminal behavior during the Revolutionary War. Since we were the victors, any novel that includes such stories we go forward reading without a pause, thinking hurrah for the character because we won a just war. Also the war took place across the ocean from the property of the "oppressors" so that their streets, shops and homes were safe.
Now on to the raison d'être for the anger and mob rage I think has as much to do with having been powerless, knowing that they were not even listened to, much less heard and here they are having to express themselves in this violent way. That they have to and are easily swayed into action by an emotional ride, a wave of mob violence just to demand a fair shake.
CarolinColorado
April 12, 2000 - 03:38 pm
Betty: Sorry! I read ahead & was commenting on another character.
You asked what I thought of O-lan. I respect her work ethic and committment to her marriage and family. I thought it showed great fortitude to teach the children to beg; it is another example of her survival skills that she had a flexible attitude when it came to the well being of her family. Carol
CharlieW
April 12, 2000 - 07:16 pm
PB plants the seeds for ‘upheaval’, revolution, and forces of change –in Chapter 13. The opulence of he rich – as ever – is built upon the foundations of poverty. The same old story dealt with by one political/social system or another. This fact is either brutally embraced as the way of the world or models of behavior are built in an attempt to negate its truth. And so it’s Spring
Spring seethed in the village of huts. The earth is coming to life. New growth, new leaves.
The lengthening warm days and the sunshine and the sudden rains filled everyone with longings and discontents Time of new possibilities after the
silence of winter. Time to speak up. Time to
stand up. Time for the fiddle-head fern to emerge. Time to stick your neck out.
With the coming of spring talk began to surge up out of their hearts and to make itself heard on their lips. Time for the crowds to gather. Time to compare notes. Time to talk of
other possibilities. But WL hangs back – apart. He is
not truly one of them. He is of the land. They but the
scum that cling
to the walls of a rich man’s house. The lumpen. There are the foreign influences. To Wang Lung both this talk of
religion AND revolution are the opiates of the people. It’s the land that is the one nourisher, the one constant.
Money and food are eaten and gone but the land….
The spring brings rising discontent to these city dwellers living just the other side of the wall, the great divide, the thin line between riches and subsistence, their resentment is as a river swollen by the winter snows. Their savage desire. WL desires nothing but his land under his feet again. Their hammer and sickle. His plow and scythe.
Barbara St. Aubrey
April 13, 2000 - 03:04 am
Charlie - great summery of chapter 13! I guess I own too librial a philosophy to see their discontent as resentment unless, it is honest resentment. My thoughts continue to retrace the step by step unfolding of Wang's experience as a rickshaw driver. Argue about price as he may his price is still goverened by what the buyer will pay and what is within reason based on the traditional fees. He liked recieving the silver coins for the one journey but didn't beleive he deserved the coins therefore, labled the American ignorant as did O-Lan if silver was put in a begging bowl.
More basic, not only do they share a poverty mentality but, I feel the imbalance of the trade or transaction. Wang uses his physical exertion to earn the rent on his business (the rental of the rickshaw) and the ability to replenish his energy (eat, sleep and be protected from the elements) as well as, help supply his families sustenance. The rider is paying for a quicker and eaiser trip to the rider's place of business, worship or evening house of play where they can increase their wealth and well-being. Without the availability of the richshaw ride a rider would be using more of their energy walking to obtain their goals and have less time and energy toward creating their business or well-being. Therefore, the rickshaw ride is a benefit to the rider's success and rather than demeaning the rickshaw drivers they should be elevated as a small partner in the rider's success. A twenty minute partner yes, but a valuable asset. Then it is simply up to the rickshaw driver to have as many partners as he has energy. But I get the impression that the rickshaw driver's landlord is charging more than a fair share for rental that should cover loss, repair, storage and profit. The economics here is imbalanced.
Another imbalance is I think basis to the story. Not only is the House of Hwang a center of village wealth but he was called Lord. This hierarchical structure seemed to encourage exploitation of everyone down the line till the only barter left for the poor was their girl babies and woman in general. There was only indifference in caring for the land by the 'Lord' rather than plowing some of the profit back into the community by building irrigation, wells, and other community aids to support the farmers.
The hierarchy seeped to the bottom of the social structure when Wang's father did not contribute and expected to be cared for because he had successfully farmed, been through this upheaval twice in his life time and had produced a son and ultimatly grandsons. Wang had to cooperate with his uncle's jealousy and greed because of a heirarchial respect for age.
There is no partnership only exploitation. Of course this is easy for me to observe having lived all my life in a democracy where the words of Paine and Jefferson are part of my education. But, I also see this ancient traditional view still rearing its ugly head when, as Jim pointed out during our reading of Canterbury Tails, we still consider the poor criminals and some still think of the poor as bad, just as there is a hierarchy as to color and gender alive and well. It is very understandable to me to see how Communism was embraced by the poor where ther was a promise of equality. Democracy carries with it Capitolism and would have done little to break down the ancient traditional system of hierarchy.
The phrase that caught my attention in chapter 14 is "...of how they might idle a bit, and even how they might gamble a little, a penny or two, since their days were alike all evil and filled with want and a man must play somethimes, though desperate."
I took that sentence and developed this thought...'Filled with want and desperation, play is seductive.' I think that concept of a wanting or desperate person taking their time and resources to play is what gets under the skin of those who build success on their successes. It is OK for a successful, even a mildly successful person to play but most are not comfortable with the poor, especially a desperatly poor person, playing. Hmmm and then we can wonder how we are guilty of creating a sub-human attitude toward other especially, as I realize I have a sense of guilt about myself playing if I have not measured up to my idea of having achieved a successful day.
ALF
April 13, 2000 - 03:32 am
The anger continues to thrive throughout their desperation. Is because of their desperation? " There was talk among the young men, angry, growling talk. The scattered anger of their youth became settled into a fierce despair...."
Why has Wang chosen the "poor little fool" as the only thing he cherishes in his life, other than his earth? He truly loves this child in all of her innocence, ignorance and simplicity.
Barbara St. Aubrey
April 13, 2000 - 03:45 am
Hmm Alf I hear and see your quote and yet I can't help think dispair is not something that is felt without cause. As I understand despair it is a combination of pain and dread that brings about a paralysis verses learning from a situation, learning how to change what starts out as resentment. Resentment or indignation is a combination of anger and shame. Shame being a feeling on having no value promted by expecting certain behavior from others and yourself. And finally the anger is simply outside resentment, a feeling of deep disappointment and hurt as opposed to, inside anger which is than guilt. Guilt being a painful regret plus anger, which is a choice of feelings over feeling helpless. Often people express anger with rage where as anger is really a cover for deep hurt.
I read of the resentment towards those with wealth where as Wang doesn't sound like he is filled with resentment only the pain of longing for his earth, the land and the dread that he will not attain his dream, his life. Therefore I think his anger is more inward and may be why he does not see the benefit of becomeing a revolutionist.
Do you think the 'poor little fool' is a symbol of pain and dread. Her paralysis to speak and his inability to make change for himself or his 'poor little fool' would be the symbol of his despair??
Ginny
April 13, 2000 - 04:32 am
I had gotten a little behind here and so it was with real contentment I picked the book back up and resumed the adventures of Wang Lung, it reminds me a lot of Dickens serialized and the breaks are just right, I think.
I was immediately struck by the power and force of the writing. We are outside the city walls. What's within? Nobody knows. Where is everybody going? To the food kitchens. We're going too.
Half the time I feel like I'm reading about the Holocaust and the rest of the time I feel like I'm actually experiencing history in the making! That "noise like the cracking of heaven" on the city gate!!! This is marvelous writing, just marvelous!!
We're swept right up IN the narrative, did YOU feel that way? We're THERE. I feel that I have been there and that I can understand what's happening.
Brilliant touch with how the Missionary's tracts must appear to the uninititated. THAT must come from some other knowledge or tale told Buck, I think.
Wang Lung may be illiterate, but he has a strong ability to survive: he listens to people around him and tries to learn.
They get on a "firewagon" and go 100 miles south in a day!
The perspective in this section is marvelous and the tigerish "howls" of the crowd are truly frightening.
I got the feeling I was THERE, a "You Are There" kind of thing. I think Buck's ability to take us there, whether or not she culled that from her own memories of the same (and it sure does sound authentic, does it not?) is outstanding.
Wang Lung, for all his illiteracy, dirt, and poverty, shines in this section too. A man who chews up beans for his child and then feels "fed." A man who reprimands his sons for thievery. A man who does not stoop to loot.
So why then does he take the gold? And are we surprised?
Does this indicate something important here?
More on the structure of the sentences, it's blowing me AWAY!!
Ginny
Malryn (Mal)
April 13, 2000 - 05:18 am
Illiteracy and ignorance do not connote lack of intelligence. Wang Lung is depicted by Pearl Buck as a very intelligent man. That's proven out as the book goes along. Some of his choices may not have been wise, and he was certainly influenced by his background and various ideas of status, which included the acquisition of more and more land and eventually moving at least part of his family into the Great House in town. I have nearly finished this book, but am not sure how far comments should go, so will wait to post about the plot itself and how Buck makes it evolve.
I believe I mentioned that the rhythm of The Good Earth is iambic tetrameter, the usual rhythm in which English speaking people and users of some Romantic languages speak. It is a sing-song kind of meter that would easily create a sense of the sound of some Chinese dialects to a Western reader.
Wang Lung took the gold so he could regain his land.
Mal
Ginny
April 13, 2000 - 05:20 am
That picture of the Manchu women up there, sort of says it all to me. How would you feel if you were starving and had to sell YOUR children just to eat and then saw that passing by?
Obviously they didn't ALWAYS keep behind locked walls.
The presence of the "Gate of Peace" just stunned me. I think what this section reminds me of most is A Tale of Two Cities. This might be A Tale of Three Cities. Has anybody been able to identify THE city this is? We know the province and we know it's in the South.
What city might this be and what uprising, does anybody know?
Apparently the Chinese themselves study this book to learn more about how it really WAS? Were there so little accounts left that they turn to this one?
Inquiring Mind Back tomorrow with the sentence structure which just, again, blew me away.
Ginny
April 13, 2000 - 05:23 am
Mal , we know why he took the gold, the question is, is this a shift in morals for him, his own standards which are very different from those around him?
Great point on his own intelligence despite lack of opportunity to be more educated, etc. This is the point of jokes, etc, even in our own country and not a bit of resentment, too. Great point.
It may indeed be tetrameter, but the sentence structure and placement of the qualifying words are not Western to me, and are, I think, unique. But more from me at least, tomorrow.
Ginny
Malryn (Mal)
April 13, 2000 - 05:31 am
Wang Lung's greatest compulsion was to be on the earth of his land. Since the gold was offered to him, I can see every reason why he took it and think there was no shift whatsoever in his primary motivation, which was land, nor do I truly see a change in his morality. He was, after all, human, and very compelled by his need to be cultivating, nurturing and acquiring land.
To my mind, Pearl Buck wrote The Good Earth in the mode of a parable, similar to the way English translations of the Bible were done. She often starts sentences with the conjunctions "and", "but", or "so". Parts of it reminded me of passages in the Bible which begin, "And so it came to pass...." At least, this is my impression of the style of writing she used.
By the way, from the beginning I could see this book sung as an opera. Has anyone else?
An edit:
I admit that my analysis of Wang Lung is at least partially based on my Slovak friend, the man who retained the effects his peasant background all of his life. John Grech was often accused of being stupid because he spoke with an accent, and his manner of speaking was unusual. "It were my instinct," he would say. "When my wife were in life." Etc. John Grech was far from stupid, and knowing him was one of the best educations I ever had in learning that even if people cannot read or read well, if they are not familiar with many things that others are, they can have a remarkable degree of intelligence which is shown in numerous different ways.
Mal
ALF
April 13, 2000 - 07:07 pm
Barbara: Why does
despair have to be felt without cause? Despair is an utter lack
of hope . Something that causes great grief or sorrow.
sometimes we are not even sure ourselves why we despair. Correct?
Yes, I do believe that "poor little fool" personifies his misery, his dread
and his pain. You said it perfectly. Do you think the 'poor little fool'
is a symbol of pain and dread. Her paralysis to speak and his inability
to make change for himself or his 'poor little fool' would be the symbol
of his despair?? Excellent point, Barb.
Mal: Wang,
unlike your friend John , Wang did not WANT to be educated . His
only knowledge or skills were "of" the land and he was contented to remain
uneducated.
Barbara St. Aubrey
April 14, 2000 - 01:40 am
ah so Alf -
I am trying to see this entire story as an the allegory that Mel you are suggesting...some hints here please...now I do see what you are saying as if written like the Bible or even a great opera. Yes, that is perfect but I think you are suggesting the whole story is an allegory to life or some part of life and I am struggling to see that. Now certain sentances and paragraphs hit me and my thoughts, concepts along with lots of wondering and questions go wheeez but the whole story...imh? Just into chapter 19 and Wang is feeling his oats having acheived his great goal and now embarking on a 'pampering himself' adventure.
The symbolism for the pearl: in China it is either the 'night-shining pearl', the moon, which the dragon of light swallows OR as a roll of thunder from which the flame of lightning emerges; the pearl being belched forth by the dragon of the sky. The white pearl is the treasure difficult to obtain; the spirit; enlightenment; wisdom; the pearl of great price. The yin, feminine principle; immortatlity; potentiality; good augury; genius in obscurity.
For O-Lan I like that last symbol...genius in obscurity!
The number two symbolizes for the Chinese; Yin, feminine, terrestreal, inauspicious.
In Chinese the Lake is the Tu, the collective waters, receptive wisdom, absorption, the humid and passive. The land is flooded and Wang's fields become lakes that he and his workers cross on rafts.
Where as the River symbolizes the flux of life. The Rivers of Paradise bring spiritual power and nourishment. The Rivers of Paradise flowing into the four cardinal directions, have their source in the spring, fountain or well at the foot of the Tree of Life, or from the rock beneath it, or the center of Paradise. They symbolize the creative power flowing from its unmanifest source into the manifest world to the extreme limit of the sea, that is from the highest ot lowest plane. The river of life must be traced back to its source to attain enlightenment.
ALF
April 14, 2000 - 04:48 am
Excellant Barb: thank you , thank you, thank you. That has been simmering in the back of my thoughts and I could NOT articulate it. Great job!! You remain our pearl (our gem.)
Malryn (Mal)
April 14, 2000 - 06:39 am
It suddenly occurred to me that my landlord's wife is Chinese. I've never met Stephen Mumford's wife, but may call her to find out if she has read this The Good Earth and get her opinion from a Chinese point of view. Both she and Mr. Mumford, (who was on 60 Minutes a few months ago), are advocates of Quinaprine, a natural, non-surgical method made from quinine that causes female sterilization. It is used today in many parts of China and other countries to keep the birth rate low. Mr. Mumford travels to China very often, as does his wife.
I wrote to Andrea to tell her my friend, John, never wanted an education. He thought any learning should be accomplished by hands-on experience. He remained only partially literate until he died and never read a book in his life.
Barbara, though I read The Good Earth when I was a kid, I had forgotten that Pearl Buck veers away from her original premise, the premise that caused me to say the book is an allegory. I have finished reading it now, and I feel less that way. What has come across now that I've finished the book is the strong feeling of ancestry and heritage that is in it.
I do feel that The Good Earth could only have been written by a Westerner from a Western point of view, despite Pearl Buck's obvious understanding of Chinese culture and peasants. In the back of the book I have, there are several reviews.
One from the Spectator, written in 1931, says, "It is a familiar story;" (something I inferred earlier) "there is no startlng psychological observation, though it is complete and whole."
The Nation's review, also in 1931, states, "...Mrs. Buck is undoubtedly one of the best Occidental writers to treat of Chinese life, but The Good Earth lacks the imaginative intensity, the lyrical quality, which someone who had actually farmed the Chinese soil might have been able to give it." I agree with these statements.
There is no question that The Good Earth is a giant book, a masterpiece. What makes it unique is the fact that it deals with and is about Chinese peasants. The plot itself is fairly commonplace, in my opinion, though the issues Buck covers are universal.
Mal
Barbara St. Aubrey
April 14, 2000 - 10:51 am
Hehehe just read a reminder on some site about the wise use of credit...credit should only be used, the article states, for things that appreciate in value; not for things that are consummed and than the article gives examples of the wise use of credit that includes Real Estate. The connection to Wang and his land was immediate, during the bit about the city folk using there extra income toward good foods etc. and Wang thought that was a waste...Land, the earth.
And than further, this is realy where the giggle came for me, Wang puts his whole heart and soul into the earth, even sleeping (at the office) with a goal to successfully manage the abundance so that he is not wiped out during another time of starvation...laudable goal but he seems so obsessed wouldn't that be, in todays world, called being a work-aholic??!! And after all the focused drive I guess he expects O-Lan to have the same concept of place, success, as if she had a stake in the stewartship, where in reality she just gives to Wang everything she is and asks only to keep two tiny pearls. Sounds like a lot of woman I knew who gave their all thinking they are working toward a shared dream and goal. When they achieve the goal the husband feels it is his success, probably because it was his dream they acted on together, and then he wants a toy wife to advertize and surround himself with symbols of his success. Donald Trump??!!
ALF
April 14, 2000 - 02:54 pm
Socialism is a system of soc. organization in which the producers possess both political power , production and distribution needs.
Imperialism? communism? capitalism? goods are produced for profit? privitization?
Does the young teacher establish the political opinion of Buck? Poor Wang was blaming the heavens, not the rich for his misfortune.
Malryn (Mal)
April 14, 2000 - 04:24 pm
The scene from which I quoted in a previous post where the teacher talks about Capitalism as the reason for the poverty of the peasant was written by Pearl Buck for two reasons, in my opinion. The first was to show how Wang Lung became enlightened about things he didn't know.
"And to the discontent of the spring there was now added the new discontent which the young man and others like him spread abroad in the spirits of the dwellers in the huts, the sense of unjust possession by others of those things they had not." (I mentioned this when I talked about revolution.)
This is the first foreshadowing of the downfall of the rich owner of the Great House in the town, the subsequent giving of gold to Wang Lung, and his future as the successor of the house, the land, and the wealth. All of this eventually pulled Wang away from the land, the only real value he ever knew, and caused him to have the same problems and unease as his predecessor.
These literary devices which Buck used lead up to the end chapters of the book where Wang Lung constantly searches for peace, the peace he knew when his greatest and only goal was to own and cultivate land, but as a rich man he can no longer find.
Pearl Buck is preaching a rather predictable, simple, and not new sermon that revolves around what true values are throughout the book. It is clear at the end of the book that all Wang Lung worked for and believed will be destroyed by his sons. What I have just described above is part of Pearl Buck's sermon about the corruption of values wealth can often bring.
Mal
betty gregory
April 14, 2000 - 06:56 pm
Such an interesting discussion, Mal, Barb, Andrea. I'm still puzzling over Ginny's question about the "shift" in Wang, the moment he took the coins. Mal isn't troubled with it because the coins mean access to what's most important to him, the land. I understand that but wonder if, given what's to come, that first moment is a shift away from the lessons he had been teaching his sons. Or, as Mal might agree, this moment was inevitable, just a continuation of the path he was on.
Malryn (Mal)
April 14, 2000 - 08:14 pm
A writer writes in steps; steps up to a climax and steps down to the end of the book. Because of this, yes, Wang's acceptance of the gold coins was inevitable. Pearl Buck had built the character of Wang Lung through a series of circumstances. The drought and his fleeing his land to survive was the step or device she used to prepare the reader for his acceptance of the gold which was unexpectedly offered to him and a surprise to the reader. When Wang Lung had suffered enough in the city, Buck knew that to keep him there would only prolong the suffering and perhaps lose the reader at the same time. It was time for her to get him and his family out of the city and back to the land, her original premise or theme.
I once said in a different discussion that writing a novel is like writing the sonata form in music. The sonata form generally has three themes: A, B and C, a development of those themes in a different key, then a recapitulation to the A, B and C themes in the original key until the end. In the development, the themes are woven in and out through various harmonic and contrapuntal changes before the recapitulation of the first themes and the original key. The sonata form can often have a coda, (a short musical phrase of only a few measures), at the end which finishes the movement. In my mind, the coda of The Good Earth is the introduction of Pear Blossom at the time Wang Lung is an old man.
When Buck has Wang Lung take the coins, she has begun the development of the book. It is in the development that the climax comes. Throughout this development, there are various changes made in all of the principal characters of the book and addition of new characters; new themes and different keys, so to speak.
I hope this makes sense. I am first a musician, and I relate the way literature is written very much to the way music is composed.
Mal
CharlieW
April 14, 2000 - 09:33 pm
<off topic>Mal: You should read Vikram Seth's An Equal Music, among other things, an inspired piece of writing on making music together</off topic>.
Joan Liimatta
April 15, 2000 - 07:03 am
I just want to pop in and say how much I am enjoying the discussion here. I decided last week that I would like to reread The Good Earth and look at your discussion. I am not finished with the book, but am certainly learning a lot by reading all of your points and views. If I catch up to you, I may throw a thought or two your way, but nothing as profound as I read here. I'm impressed.
Northern Joan
Barbara St. Aubrey
April 15, 2000 - 09:17 am
Mal thanks for that - it gives a percpective from a writters point of view of what we studied as Conflict in LIterature. What you are saying sounds like in order for the conflict to be obvious a shift needs to take place in either story or characters so we can see the crisis. It almost sounds like, build them up to tear them down so that a crisis of spirit is forced.
I guess his crossing the lake that submerged his fields would be another clue, since we know a lake is symbolic of receptive wisdom and collected waters. Your post prompted me to look further into waters and learned, to the Chinese, water is symbolic of purity, symbolically pictured as the black turtle being the color of premordial chaos and also, is the strength of weakness, the power of persistence wearing down even the hardest rock. Crossing the waters is frequesntly used as a symbol of passing through the world of illusion to attain enlightenment.
So it sounds like Wang did not attain elightenment with all his dispair and harsh life. Maybe that was why the statements of others being foolish for giving silver in a begging bowl or as payment for a richshaw ride. There was an acceptance of 'awfulness' where as, prosperity is something new to learn from.
Malryn (Mal)
April 15, 2000 - 09:42 am
Barbara, I wonder how much of what you've posted about Chinese culture and symbolism a peasant like Wang Lung would know. Pearl Buck would know what you've researched, since she was a student of culture and literature both in China and the United States. If she was true to her characters, though, she would not symbolize more than the characters themselves knew, would she?
I never heard of Conflict in Literature until your post today. I was not an English major, and I have never read a book about writing. Anything I post here is based on hypotheses and theories of my own that I've proven to myself, based on experience and observation. I claim to be no authority about much of anything, frankly, but my life experience has been wide, wider perhaps than that of most women I know, only through the zigzags and twists and turns of circumstance that have come my way.
When reading The Good Earth, I tried not to over-analyze, but to accept what the author wrote more or less at face value. I do ask myself how I would respond to the situation which is described. Since Buck's characters are people and not just Chinese, their behavior and reactions are not unfamiliar, really. The biggest difference I see between them and us as people is that they are peasants, something none of us has been.
Oh, yes. About the fool. When I first read of her condition, the thought that immediately came into my mind was Pearl Buck's daughter.
Mal
betty gregory
April 15, 2000 - 10:20 am
Barbara, You wrote "build them up to tear them down so that a crisis of spirit is forced." A critic speaking of Sue Miller's several novels says she does something similar, that readers know the very good people they're getting to know will face something that may be their undoing.
I feel mixed, Mal, about whether Chinese peasants would know anything about cultural symbols. Maybe not in the intellectual way we read/speak of them, but I feel strongly that each of us is of our culture in a thousand little ways of which we're not even aware. Because Chinese culture is thousands of years old, even older than written words to describe it, my bias is that Wang is a product of all that came before him even if he only could articulate a fraction of it.
Malryn (Mal)
April 15, 2000 - 01:44 pm
Betty, I agree with what you said and did not say Wang Lung was not aware, perhaps more instinctively than not, of cultural symbols that had been part of his heritage for thousands of years. That is why in an earlier post I said I was struck with the ancestry and heritage that was coming across in the book.
My point was that I try not to over-analyze a relatively simple book that has a relatively simple plot. I maintain that The Good Earth seems profound because it is about a culture we do not know. It is Pearl Buck's easy and readable description of that culture and some of its people that makes the book great. I read this same assessment in a review of the book just the other day.
Peasants are supersitious to a great degree. Remember the locusts before the drought and the famine? Their appearance was called a bad omen. Does this belief in omens relate to cultural symbols?
About the book's reflecting the politics of Pearl Buck: If she had wanted this book to be a statement of her politics and her ideas about equal rights, she never would have made Wang Lung a rich man, would she? In my opinion, she did it to prove the point of her sermon that wealth can often corrupt values. I don't equate that with politics, though the goal to amass wealth could certainly be part of a culture.
It also could be a very personal compulsion caused by having been treated badly by the rich and the feeling that one was walked on, the result of which is a great sense of inferiority.
Mal
Ginny
April 15, 2000 - 02:22 pm
Northern Joan! Welcome, we are so glad you are here, you will not regret reading this masterpiece.
I'd like to say first a word about the schedule and then a couple of things about my impressions of the usage of language here in this book.
Most criticisms of the book divide the book into three parts, we have used four, but that's OK too. The last five chapters are set off by themselves, and I'd sort of like to ask that this week we dwell on pages 141-309 (the end of Chapter 29) which I hope to get up in the heading soon, and then take the last five chapters Easter Week, April 24- May 1.
The first time I read this book I was blown away by the strange, to me, use of language. As I don't know Chinese, I have no way of knowing whether the use of the word "Well," as in "Well, and..." to start sentences is common there or was common in Pearl Buck's time, but I find it charming. I would really like to know what other translation it might have. In addition the phrase "and to spare," as in "when we have enough and to spare?" (page 186), is marvelously addictive. I remember the first time I read this I went around a long time repeating those phrases.
These strange cadences, to me, add to the feeling of being immersed right in the culture itself. Sometimes they are repeated several times on a page for greater emphasis: (page 153:)"
Well, but I cannot..."speak...."
"Well, and why not?"
"Well, and the Old Mistress is...."
The constant use of the interjection "well, " as well as some other transitional conjunctions such as "and," and "but," (which, interestingly, denote opposite meanings: a really delicious twist in the sentence structure) causes a jerk in the readers eye, a change in the metre of the line, and a reminder to the reader that something different and wonderful is occuring. I don't think we should take Buck's literary abilities here too lightly, the use of these phrases so well is just marvelous.
Well, and I find it a very powerful technique and unique to Pearl Buck, at least I have not seen it anywhere else, did those of you who read WAITING notice it there?
We did say we would compare the two, let's not forget to do it!!
There we had also a simplicity of language but it's different, to me. This has a rhythm which IS as somebody has noted, almost poetic and sometimes Bibical sounding.
O-Lan for instance is the very model of Proverbs 31:10 ff:
"Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far abovr rubies.
The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall hve no need of spoil.
She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands...she bringeth her food from afar..
She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.
...with the fruit of her hands she plantesh a vineyard.
She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.
She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.
She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff...
She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet.
She maketh herself coverings of tapestery; her clothing is silk and purple..."
So it's no wonder that we consider O-Lan to be a pearl above price and thus what happens to her and her own jewels and pearls seems doubly sad.
Up until the point that Wang Lung took the gold he had not sullied
himself by accepting anything other than what he had earned? Other than when he hid in fear from the soldiers conscipting people off the street he personally had taken nothing he had not worked for.
But when he entered the House of Hwang, although he did not participate in the looting, held himself aloof from that, he still succumbed to taking the gold.
Now if I were a superstitious person as Wang Lung certainly is, I believe I would begin to worry a bit here? What can we say causes the downfall of Wang Lung?
Did it begin here and is it solely due to the gold? Without the gold what would his life have been?
The question of feet, O-Lan's and Lotus's, seem a very sharp contrast too.
Do you realize what they DID to those feet to make them so small? Note that Lotus' little shoes are no longer than Wang Lung's finger! This crippling of the foot and the resultant tottering and helplessness which Buck even SAYS outright in our new section paints a picture of the woman as helpless flower (which apparently has lived in more than one culture: witness the opening of car doors for women in America? And not only America, Hyacinth Bucket would not GET into a car that Richard did not open the door to).
Why did the Chinese, who in many ways, even in their peasant culture, tower above other cultures (for instance, they don't abandon
their elderly to die along side the road, they feed them FIRST?) choose to physically cripple women?
Barb, you will LOVE the flood pictures, I loved your water information, stay tuned!
Ginny
ALF
April 15, 2000 - 03:03 pm
Miss Ginny. What a terrific synopsis and eloquent post. I think the schedule you've decided on is Just the "ticket." Have a wonderful weekend everyone. I am off to cook for our company and won't be back until after church in AM. God bless you all.
Malryn (Mal)
April 15, 2000 - 03:44 pm
Foot binding.
"The practice of foot binding began in the Sung dynasty (960-976 BC), reportedly to
imitate an imperial concubine who was required to dance with her feet bound. By
the 12th century, the practice was widespread and more severe — girls’ feet were
bound so tightly and early in life that they were unable to dance and had difficulty
walking.
"By the time a girl turned three years old, all her toes but the first were broken, and
her feet were bound tightly with cloth strips to keep her feet from growing larger
than 10 cm, about 3.9 inches. The practice would cause the soles of feet to bend in
extreme concavity.
" 'Foot binding ceased in the 20th century with the end of imperial dynasties and
increasing influence of western fashion, according to the UCSF study. 'As the
practice waned, some girls’ feet were released after initial binding, leaving less
severe deformities,' Cummings says. 'However, the deformities of foot binding
linger on as a common cause of disability in elderly Chinese women.' "
Barbara St. Aubrey
April 15, 2000 - 03:48 pm
Somehow I do think Wang would be aware of many symbols - I have now worked with over 25 Chinese families helping them buy their homes as well as, being included in the Austin Indonessian Chinese community and they all unless over 60 call home to their parents or older sibling in Taiwan or Hong Kong or Jakarta not only out of respect but to check the auspiciousness of the day any large purchase or other celebration is arranged.
When writting an offer we are often delayed becuase of that all important call in a time zone different by 14 hours, During the call most important is to double check that no rule have been broken as to the placement of the house, where it is located in relationship to the four cardinal points, although that is not how it is referred, where the stair are located, where the back door is in relationship to the front door, where the kitchen appliences are located in relationship to each other and the entry to the room, if the house is near a hill and where is the hill in relationship to the house, what address is the house and to be sure the number 4 is not in the address - on and on - each of those and many other rules carry with them a symbolic meaning for their future success living on the property. Many even refer to a daily almunac, if you would, before anything is desided. Those educated in the US always announce their embarrassment at pleasing their culture and family but continue to act as those who were not educated in the States.
My impression is symbolism is important and choices of decoration, foods and gifts appear filled with meaning shared and known by those from a Chinese heritage. If you look at the I Ching which is so basic to the Chinese culture you'll find most of the symbols in the Good Earth like water and lake and river and sun, family, well, increase, decrease, difficulty revolution,
waiting, beauty, nourishment, wealth on and on 64 times 6 times to the power of 64 different meanings.
Example: "The taming power of the small" (which reminds me of Lotus)
- The wind drives across heaven:
The image of the taming power of the small.
Thus the superior man
Refines the outward aspect of his nature. - the expination - the wind can indeed drive the clouds together in the sky; yet, being nothing but air, without solid body, it does not produce great or lasting effects. So also an individual, in times when he can produce no great effect in the outer world, can do nothing except refine the expression of his nature in small ways.
This is followed by a small distinction with the change of the 6 lines. The information is cryptic and written with mostly symbols of nature that are then discribed and discribed further to make sense to the western mind by the translater.
Remember this is information passed down since 8000 B.C. finally written about 600 BC
Malryn (Mal)
April 15, 2000 - 04:22 pm
"...Wang Lung's story is rich in detail and characterization, and the first half is told with a verve and simplicity that permits us to enter with understanding into the alien mental life of this simple, fundamentally good-hearted Chinese farmer. In the latter half there is a change of literary style, the second manner being obviously influenced by the English Bible. The matter becomes more dramatic, and at the same time more familiar. Mrs. Buck's conception of Wang Lung does not waver, but she leaves the impression that she could do no more with him as a simple figure of pastoral life, and had been driven into romance in order to extend the interest."
(From a review in the London Times Literary Supplement, 1931)
I personally thought the book was very strong in the beginning, of a majestic character, but as the book went on, the situations became more common. They were situations could have happened in the United States with American characters. I felt at the end of the book that Pearl Buck was forcing to keep it going. The coda I mentioned earlier, (the introduction of Pear Blossom), was totally unnecessary, in my opinion.
I am in no way trying to belittle the book or its author, who I think might be a powerful writer in other books I haven't read, but I will now commit lese majeste and say I did not like The Good Earth very much, whether or not it won the Pulitzer Prize.
It's been an interesting discussion, and thank you all for stimulating much thought.
Mal
Ginny
April 15, 2000 - 04:49 pm
Hold on there, now, Mal, don't run off, it's not over!! We've got a bit to go yet and some opposing critics' opinions to share, including the critic who said that she obviously had no knowledge of the Chinese language, either.
Thanks also for the information on the foot binding: it's amazing how little you can actually FIND about it: for instance the toe breaking there, I didn't know that. I had read they actually bend the foot underneath itself!
I did just notice that under one of the photos in the book that the editors identify the time period of the book: before the Manchu dynasty was swept away by revolution in 1911-1912. There are some interesting comments on the revolution too and why it paved the way for Communism to take over, but coming up!!!
We've just about decided to write a SeniorNet review for each book we read in the hopes that the readers of Amazon and B&N might want to join us so if you are interested in helping with it, just drop me or Andrea a line!
Ginny
Malryn (Mal)
April 15, 2000 - 05:14 pm
There's a lot about foot binding on the Web. I first heard of it not long after I had polio, a long time ago. Under the circumstances, it made me cry. I neglected to say that the quote I posted about foot binding came from the Museum of the City of San Francisco.
http://www.sfmuseum.org/chin/foot.html
Though I've read similar reviews of The Good Earth by Chinese reviewers to what I posted tonight, I'm not going to mention them now. I have two electronic magazines to get on the Web in the next two weeks, and a paying job building web pages is coming up in the very near future, so I'm going to be extremely busy.
I'll drop by from time to time just to see what's going on.
Mal
CharlieW
April 15, 2000 - 08:43 pm
I’m puzzled by the Question 1 in the heading: “What, in your opinion, is the real cause of Wang Lung's downfall?” I assume that this doesn’t refer to Wang Lung’s reversal of fortune in the first section of the book which was of course caused by the vicissitudes of the weather that all farmers face and resulted in crop failures and famine – for his family as well as for the entire region. What happens to Wang Lung and his family in this next part – and during the course of the rest of the book – I wouldn’t consider a “downfall.” I read this as the slow but inevitable change from an agrarian society to a more industrialized, or at least mercantile-based one. It’s a paean, in a way, to the passing of an era. Wang Lung loses his direct connection to the land – a connection for which he remains nostalgic. A connection for which he perhaps has a real need, an almost physical need. But he prospers where others do not. Sure, we all see how Wang Lung changes, how his family evolves, how they come to resemble more and more the House of Hwang. There is disappointment to be sure – not the least of which is disappointment in his family - and the failure of a “peace” to emerge. But aren’t these just new problems, problems of a different nature that arise due to the family’s changed circumstances. But are we to accept that one would prefer the cyclical expectation of drought or flood and the famine to follow to the disharmonies inherent in Wang Lung’s family life as they carve out new roles for themselves in this emerging society? So I guess I’m saying that I missed the downfall part (aside from his firs leave taking of the land to go South and his return. From the point where he returns, though…I guess I need to ask: What is the downfall? Because, right now I’m arguing that there isn’t one.
I must say too, that I find this a simple (down to earth) book in style and intent. This was not a book written with layers of symbolism in mind – oh the occasional flock of black crows might be seen overhead, but really nothing much more deep than that. A flood is but a weather cycle causing crop failures – it demands a change from wheat to rice perhaps, but nothing more. Now the individual reader may search out layers of meaning through the spectacles of symbolism and that’s a personal preference. But in the context of this book, I think that’s choosing the fancy, delicate dishes, rather than the garlic laden wheaten bread which is the cuisine du jour.
But I digress. Did I miss the downfall? Damn – I hate it when I do that! If I did – please get me back on track.
betty gregory
April 15, 2000 - 09:54 pm
I just love it, hate it, love it, hate it when this happens. But I'm finally learning to squelch my unholy compulsion for everyone to be happily singing the same tune. Remember the first time, Ginny? I was overwrought(?) and beside myself that Ginny hated ("detested", I think she said) the characters I loved. Our polite disagreements here are a far cry from those dramatic territories staked out.
I find myself in an unusual place---sort of casually in the middle. Now when have you ever seen me there. (Remnants of low grade depression, I suspect, when you have to make an effort to give a sh*t.) However, I find Buck's story to be simple but compelling. Not great writing, but writing of a place and time that moves me more than great writing of something less compelling. I always see less symbolism than Barbara does, but that has changed a little over time, mostly because of Barbara's efforts. I am particularly interested in symbolism and culture of Chinese heritage, which enhances my reading of the Good Earth, even if I don't know and can't know how much, if any, of this informed Buck's writing. A bias that strongly governs my perspective on books and everything else is my belief in the insidious effect of environment/culture.
"Downfall"? I think that will be answered when we address Mal's idea of Buck's sermon and what that might be. Let me go out on a limb here and guess that there will be divergent answers from this discussion group.
Barbara St. Aubrey
April 15, 2000 - 11:15 pm
Wow I am feeling behind now - sounds like most of you have completed the read - And yes I think our responses to the story would be different don't you - I read someplace that reading is a creative act - that we combine with the author our life experiences to create something bigger than the story as first written - in fact wasn't it Gregg Kleiner that I am paraphrasing? Gregg Kleiner author of 'Where River Turns to Sky"...and for me Pearl S. Buck has left much room to enlarge on her story. I almost feel as though the story is written with double spaces between sentences so that we can write our own side by side story. I wonder if in 1931 the aspects of the story were a cliche that Mal speaks about. It seems a simple story and yet to me it speaking volumns...what can I say?
I also like the clear and simple writting style. I haven't finished yet but, I am suspecting that with this shift that y'all have noted that Wang's new adventures as a man of wealth will be more personally insightful where as up to mid story it has been a mantra to the earth.
And yes, y'all are right, I seem to see symbols in much. It is a way I've discovered so much depth to a story and for me, our life is a symbol. It may have been my childhood; reared in Catholic Schools where we sang the Latin Mass every morning frought with symbolism as well as, reading books like Ivanhoe and Tristran Isolde in class with our additional text discribing the symbolism as part of the classroom excercise. For me the symbolic nature of things is almost like poetry and captured my breathe as a young child. I've been been facinated ever since. My reading experince has shown that authors instinctivly choose objects, colors, numbers signs of nature that are so in keeping with the story they are telling, in fact I think we all act on our cultural instinct to express ourselves.
Tip - one of the best movies to watch with an open book of symbolim at your side is "Ladyhawke."I doubt the author nor the director researched to see what a black steed symbolized - they probably just thought the knight errant or knight wronged as you would, would be best portrayed on a black steed, assuming we would see this as a man of strength and mystery. Well as it turns out, a horse symbolizes the solar and lunar which is the bases of the curse, night and day. In additon, the horse symolizes virility, a messenger of the gods, sun, courage, generosity and during the Renaissance it became lust. The black horse symolizes chaos and further among the many Christian symbols for black is; humiliation, despair, spiritual darkness. All attributes that portray and deepen the understanding of the knight turned wolf each night.
Barbara St. Aubrey
April 16, 2000 - 12:26 am
Ginny I think part of the difference as to how we may beseach God rather than be annoyed or scold is, our taught relationship with God. Most of the Asian religions are more philosophy then a heirarchy of prelates, prelates that keep God in an elevated position. Where as the Buddhist or Taoist see God and I quote "Gods are visions of the eternal attributes: the servants, not the masters of man...Cooperating in the bliss of Man."
The idea of Wang experiencing bliss can confound unless we see ourselves on a journey of learning and that if we want a certain comfort then we are being needy, feeling self-pity for not experiencing what we want. We are then dependent on what we want or the way things should be, which allows us to throw ourselves away. In other words we are no longer balanced, centered and we are easly lead to playing "King of the Heap," driven to achieve and maintain the upper hand or seek confirmation and support for our views, or belief in how things should be.
When we do not gain the upper hand or receive what believe we need or should experience, we become negative which leads to putting up a shield while asking, "why" or stricking out. A shield protects but creates problems by carrying with it guilt, resentment, despair.
I remember some years back in my own despair - hurt, angry and raging at God. It made no sense to me how this figure of good could allow children to experience what I percieved as acts of inhumanity. Children, before they have the ability to care for themselves, protect themselves, while they are still dependent on adults for their physical, spiritual and mental growth. While attending ACOA meetings and walking the steps that includes believing in a greater power than I, I struggled - then I started to reflect what was a greater power. At first I thought an 18 wheeler, then a volcano exploiding and then it hit me the greatest power I could imagine was an atom bomb. Not having the knowledge of physics I visited my sons childhood friend, who has earned his doctorate in physics. I asked him in laymans terms how this thing worked. And the whole thing fell into place for me. Again, I have no study of physics therefore someone else may be able to say this better, but this is what I got out of it.
Energy releases power. Various minerals, in fact all things, have different masses of bound nutrons which when released, release various rates of energy. Uranium simply needs less energy to split apart releasing power to either duplicate or if the 'shake rattle and roll' is great enough the duplicating and splitting will cause the power to be released of an atom explosion.
Symbols again but what I got out of that which has been my saving grace is that we are bound by our current thinking, religious and philosophical views untill something happens to make us either grow or the something is great enough, we split, causing an explosion in our lives. I also saw that in order for God, a god that I could visualize as a 'power greater than I' is to be released, it took the multiple experience or pain or sharing, of a group, that like math, the group number 'to the power of' that number, which multiplies beyond the power of the size of the group and then what is said, with the group focused from their truth, is the power or voice of God in a room.
I no longer see God as the good, the just, or rather my concept of good or just, but simply a power source that I can plug into, much as an electric cord plugs into a socket. This God power is not an authority providing or handing out good and bad. God just is, that I can plug into, use the power to center myself and realize, what I want may not be what I need. I learn what I need from my experiences, often in uncomfortable ways.
Ginny
April 16, 2000 - 01:57 am
Fabulous, several different viewpoints! Is there or is there not a downfall? Whose perspective is the story told in? What constitutes "success" to Wang Lung? Is he happy and content?
So this is a success story? Charlie says there IS no downfall, that's provocative as per usual!
I guess we will have to wait till the last 5 chapters and decide for ourselves.
I actually love it that we CAN have differing opinions, and why should we NOT?
I don't remember you being overwrought, Betty!!! But either way your opinions are fine with me, that's why we're here.
Barb, I really enjoyed your post about selling houses and the need to consult the "auguries." What's wrong with the number 4 in the address? I'm frantically thinking of all the addresses I've had to see if any have that number and what the result was!! Is it something like buildings which skip the number 13 in the elevators?
Got up thinking about O-Lan's death. How do we feel about this woman and her death? Do we feel that Wang Lung, thru his devotion to her on her deathbed (was that normal for the times?) "made up" to her for his behavior? That her tears were avenged??
Note how even tho he agonizes over her murmurings about being ugly to the point that she had to stay out of the rooms when serving as a child, and feels he has come to know her best in this house or her death, that he STILL cannot bring himself to think of her as attractive or desirable, tho why he should at this point I have no idea. Yet the burden of his guilt spurs him always on.
This is also an interesting section and a poignant one. Buck seems to be able to capture in a few words the universal deathbed scene. Guilt pays a big part in Wang Lung's behavior here, and his desire to "make up" to her for what he has done with his obsession with Lotus, but does he succeed?
Would it be enough for YOU?
As an aside, how CAN he hope to expect his sons to want to work the land, he's not exactly provided them with positive experiences there and took them out of the land into the city and the school life. Everybody moves away from pain towards pleasure, why would he think that his children might be different?
How ya going to keep 'em down on the farm, after they've seen Paree?
Mal's article on foot binding is very interesting. I note that it says the practice ceased in 1911? Don't you find that thrilling? That's the VERY time our story is set in, the Revolution! Out with the Manchus and their decadent ways and in with...???
I read an article yesterday mentioning the "wasp waists" of our own country brought about by the incessant tightening of "stays," to the point that the waist could be encircled by a man's hands. This practice (no wonder the Southern Belle fainted so easily) caused great harm and displacement to the internal organs. (Did you see that fashion designer today who wears a corset? His waist is 18"!!!)
One of the purposes of the Nobel Prize for Literature is to "reward those who are trying to promote peace and understanding among mankind."
Would you say that Buck succeeds here in making you feel you understand the mind of a Chinese peasant in 1911?
Ginny
CharlieW
April 16, 2000 - 05:24 am
My address is Poor Farm Road and the striking symbolism of it hits me every April 15th.
Not a success story...Wang Lung becomes afflicted as with a low grade fever. There are constant nagging little irritants that trouble his daily life. But there is less concern with daily survival. So his focus changes. Life may not have turned out the way he'd want it, he may have some regrets, but he's not considered a failure in general and after returning from the south he's never again to reach those depths. I mean they may have moved his cheese or something (sorry!)but he seems to have dealt with the primal struggle of his time and region - putting food on the table - very well. We (and he) have to deal with THIS basic material fact first, before we can address concerns of a spiritual or moral nature.
Ginny
April 16, 2000 - 06:44 am
What a fabulous point of view, Charlie!! Do the rest of you echo it? What counts as success anyway, that was great!!!
AND I just read a commentary which points out a weakness, an error in this section of the book so I need to see (I'm not at the point yet) if I would have noticed it!!!
How about YOU did you notice an error in this section of the book?
Putting up new photos now!
Ginny
Ginny
April 16, 2000 - 06:54 am
And I also changed the questions above to reflect that perhaps we don't all think there was a downfall.
Ginny
betty gregory
April 16, 2000 - 07:42 am
The number 4. In Japan, so the network news reported, the number 4 is avoided because the pronunciation is very close to the word for "death." The Japanese do not speak publically about death, so when the Prime Minister of Japan was near death, the news reporters on television had difficulty filling up air time talking about his situation....without talking about the possibility of his death. They did special after special sizing up his replacement.
Symbolism. In psychology, 2/3 of the theories of ideology and treatment have to do with looking for clues of behavior that have hidden meaning. You do this and it means that. You think of this and it is related to that. Symbolism. One thing stands for another. That has so little appeal for me, so little utility in getting to the source of a problem. This approach is descended from theories that have never been tested by rigorous scientific study, and when compared to more direct approaches in outcome studies, do not fare well. You can imagine my distaste for Freudian stuff. In this area and others, I want the facts, the numbers, the bottom line, the scientific studies. I want something tested, then retested. I roll my eyes at new age stuff, astrology. In what might seem a contradiction, I warm immediately to things eastern. Meditation, visualization, mind releasing body stress, biofeedback, etc. Body and mind are not separate in my view, but together seem holistically biological to me----deep breathing (biological) releasing physical and emotional stress. Anyway, just thought I'd throw in where my reaction to symbolism comes from. Culture (environment), on the other hand, is direct experience of life (parents, friends, geography, law, cultural expectations) that joins with biology to create a unique individual. (So my thinking goes.)
So, from my perspective, an author brings her cultural background with her into the writing, not in the multilayered way of symbolism, but in a more direct way. Virginia Woolf suffered over the restrictions of women and addressed that in some of her work. Pearl Buck grew disillusioned with the intrusive approach of U.S. missionaries, so she added that absurd moment to Good Earth.
Spiritual, not religious, things are of new interest to me....shaking the extraneous, time-wasting parts away from a clearer, more direct way of living. By the way, one reason I am never irked by your obvious hard work to share symbolic information, Barbara, is.....this gets complicated....In Austin, San Francisco, Portland, people that I warmed to instantly were feminists, gay people, rebels of various sorts, enlightened heterosexual men and, of course, what goes with the territory?---new age stuff, off-the-wall new thinkers, the weirdest therapy people. My supervisor at UC Berkeley joined with 3 other women in an outside private practice---I liked all of them but 2 of them believed that past childhood trauma could be instantly wiped off the brain slate with a new eye muscle excercise. Oh, please. I did get teased a lot at Berkeley for saying, "Show me the study." At some good natured fights in staff meetings, someone would call out, "Just show her the study," In the scheme of things, maybe I am the odd ball.
On the other hand (I've waited several paragraphs to say this), sometimes a black horse is just a black horse.
CharlieW
April 16, 2000 - 08:37 am
For some novels I feel the need to plug into its era, study the manual so to speak. I need to understand the inventor (author) and his life and times. I need to know what came before, what came after. All this before I'm ready to flip the switch and shine the feeble light of my understanding on what the author was after.
Well and then. On the other hand, sometimes its only necessary to stick ny finger right in the wall socket to kind of catch the drift.
Ginny
April 16, 2000 - 09:01 am
So which is the better author, Churl, the one you have to research or the one you understand instantly?
Carm
ALF
April 16, 2000 - 09:01 am
BETTY- You said: "The
black horse symolizes chaos and further among the many Christian symbols
for black is; humiliation, despair, spiritual darkness. Maybe the black
horse is JUST the black horse. I personally had not thought of all
of these symbols during my reading. Perhaps it is my ignorance OR
perhaps it is just because of what YOU say-- Maybe the black horse is just
that. Your posts are exceptional in their understanding
of human nature and I personally believe that human nature
was Wang's downfall - his black horse; he is merely a MAN
(not sexist, hold on) - a being , fallible, fatuous,arduous and merely
HUMAN! He is full of angst, indignation and irritation.
He lacks self control & direction. As the story progresses he
becomes lazier and more self-indulgent. As Charles so humorously said
" somebody moved his cheese." He lost focus - no longer
centered, he met his Waterloo.
I believe you are correct in assuming that the
author brought in her own baggage.
Whether or not it was due to religious
persuasion (missionary interference) OR misunderstanding of the westerners
towards the occidental, it matters not. In writing the Good
Earth, PB was victorious in her depictions and references to these
influences.
(I need to deep breath , yoga stretch, meditate,
visualize, etc) just to keep up with you, Betty.
I understand your enjoyment of the folks that
you warm to- the new agers, etc. I feel it's because they bring a
different dimension to OUR thinking. Thought Provoking! You
listen, you learn, and weidh their words BUT your credo is "show
me the study." You have the mind of a scientist, obviously, and like
all good scientists, enjoy the banter.
Charles;we will NOT discuss the IRS. It
makes me angry and very
blue today.
Ginny:
Come on TELL US!!! What weakness? An error? Tell
us, tell us please.
CharlieW
April 16, 2000 - 09:42 am
Ah, the better author, Ginny? You mean which do I prefer. This is only one aspect, and by no means the deciding factor. I thought, for instance, The Magic Mountain was inspired and brilliant and took me all kinds of places mentally and on the web in search of....But there's also the pleasure of going along for the ride, getting into the flow of language, or letting the Big Idea speak for itself. Sometimes with your finger in the socket there's a jolt of profound understanding and sometimes there's a little tingling sensation. (By the way - I apologize - it seems I'm in one of my oblique and purposefully obtuse moods and I know this can be irritating - so just skip on by and no hard feelings, ok?)
CharlieW
April 16, 2000 - 09:52 am
Good points, Alf. Maybe he could have stayed on the land, not moved to the walled town, kept his focus, and not become so alienated from his sense of self. Course, maybe he would have been buried alongside Ching a lot sooner too.
betty gregory
April 16, 2000 - 11:08 am
AlfAndrea, your compassionate view of Wang appeals to me and fills in some blanks---I'm so behind in the reading, it's embarrassing (I got ahead and am now a little behind--Barbara's not alone). In my head, I was still off down the road thinking I'd run into his "big flaw," which is rarely how I view anyone, even those with big flaws.
If you catch me in here again today, tell me to go read.
Barbara St. Aubrey
April 16, 2000 - 12:28 pm
Oh shoot I guess I am not as pragmatic as most of you...I love reading the obscurly written stories of the east, now that more and more are translated and available and for me to read.
And dearest Alf if a black horse is just a black horse I would burst into tears of disappointment. Ah so we all bring to a story our own experiences etc.
Betty I love it 'where is the study?' Reminds me of the difference in buyer looking at a vacant lot. Some want all the dimensions and restrictions, first off before we even drive out and look, where as others, like to look at different hours of the day at their 'field of dreams' and then hire an architect to design a house, with all the dreams they have stored in their heads, regardless if it falls off too sharply for most or there is a PUC easment along the side.
Oh and Charles, pun intended some are more conserned with the wiring in the house, since this is such the center of the computer industry, then they are concerned about the room layout or material for the roof.
And yes, Betty is so correct, the number four is the same configuration as the word death. And a house cannot be at the end of a cul-de-sac nor at the tip of a cross street where a street comes up to meet it. The house is then situated for the bad luck from the streets to enter, just as the back door cannot be in dirrect line with the front door since the luck would go out the house without circling the house and a straight non curved stairwell in the middle of the breaks the marriage or curved or not if located in line with the front door, any bad luck coming in would go up the stairs.
And I should not even be here today...you have guessed it... I haven't finished my income tax and I have an appointment with Mert at 7:30 in the morning to get it all completed. ohhahhoh!
CharlieW
April 16, 2000 - 12:49 pm
Q. When an idea enters the (Western) popular culture, can Madison Ave. be far behind?
A. Nope. I just saw a commercial by the phone company for what they're calling "phone-shui".
ALF
April 16, 2000 - 01:09 pm
Charles: eeny, meeny, miney, mow. "
Wang, dismayed in his heart
but upon the surface of his face and voice courteous." Maybe
he, too, could have found the peace that Ching found, HAD he stayed on
his good earth.
Ching grew old and withered and lean a a reed, but there
was the strength of an old and faithful dog in him yet--- It takes
on a different dimension after reading the book today, Who Moved the Cheese?
It was so appropos that you remarked on it.
Betty: Thank you , but it is NOT a compassionate view that I
have of Wang, merely an observation. The angrier HE gets the
angrier I get at him. I hate self-destruction. As I
read on, I could almost feel the countdown to his destruction- 10-9-8-7-6-5-4----
He stayed more and more in the house and he could never have his
fill of wonder at this, that here in these courts where the great family
of Hwang once lived now he lived with his wife and sons - & their wives.
Pride was the fall of the angels wasn't it?
Barb: This information on the buyers "beware" of symbols floors
me. What an engaging concept. I can just picture a highly educated
man and wife, stalling negotioations with the realtor because of their
need to consult their Chinese families, before the final decision is made.
Puts a whole diffent slant on aggressive real estate. J
CharlieW
April 16, 2000 - 07:47 pm
After the coming of Lotus and Cuckoo to the House of Wang, discord follows. One of the more interesting things that occurred was the reaction of Wang Lung's father:
And so the old man woke from his aged and fitful sleepimg with a sort of cunning hatred against Lotus. He would go to the doorway of her court and shout suddenly into the air,
"Harlot!"
Or he would draw aside the curtain into her court and then spit furiously upon the tiles. And he would hurl small stones and throw them with his feeble arm into the little pool to scare the fish, and in the mean ways of a mischievous child he expressed his anger.
I mention this because it put me in mind of the reactions on Ran Su's wife in Waiting, every time she saw Manna or Lin.
Passing them, the skinny little woman spat to the ground and said out loud, "Self-delivery."...
From then on, whenever the little woman saw Manna she would call her "Self-delivery" or shout, "Poked by a man!"
Ginny
April 18, 2000 - 04:03 am
CHARLIE!! That's the first connection we've made between the two books, and I had totally forgotten that one, great!
I thought that was a bit strange, myself, that attitude, so we can see that Lotus was not a happy camper chez Wang, despite her having all the best things.
I don't know who to feel sorrier for here, O-Lan or Lotus. What is Buck saying? Is she saying that THE most virtuous and devout woman who ever lived is still nothing in the eyes of a man? In the end?
Somehow the pleasures of riches are not getting a very good angle here.
Nothing shuts down a discussion faster than the realization that some critic has seen something that perhaps we did not. The only reason I mentioned the "discrepancy" in this part is my desire that we not fail to turn over every stone we can!
But I'm not sure they're right, because in MY own haste to get this read before my trip Monday, I felt confused over this same issue and sort of "duh," and just thought, well, it's your regular "duh," so just get on with it?
But here's what Monarch says: do you agrree and did you notice this or are you that far yet?
"One great weakness in the novel is the author's sense of time...For example, the youngest daugher is not quite ten when she is betrothed. Then, apparently, many years pass during which much happens. Nevertheless, she is not quite thirteen when she is attacked by the uncle's son. Than, again, many years apparently pass during which much more happens. But, when the youngest son--this girl's twin, and therefore the same age-appears before the father, he is stil a young boy."
This same commentary addresses the THREE MAIN TURNING POINTS in Wang Lung's Live.
I wonder if we could give our own notions of what they are? One of them surprised me?
THEIR opinions are no better than ours, what would WE say are the
Turning Points in his life?
Let's write our own commentary, I'd back YOUR minds any day!
Ginny
Malryn (Mal)
April 18, 2000 - 08:49 am
Hi, everybody. Just thought I'd drop by and say hello.
Where was Pearl Buck's editor? It's an editor's job to catch errors like that which writers make.
Mal
betty gregory
April 18, 2000 - 09:48 am
Ah, Ginny, you multi-linguist, you....chez Wang.
Ya know, book reviewers in the '30's were....men. This is still pretty close in time to the era when female writers would take male pen names to get a fair shake. Don't know if this is pertinent here, but is something to keep in mind.
ALF
April 18, 2000 - 05:38 pm
Is there a one of us that has not grieved as Wang did?
"There
in that land of mine is buried the first good half of my life and more."
And suddenly he wept a little and dried his eyes with the back of
his hand, as a child does.
I am confused. How do the Chinese bury their dead? Does
anyone know? Is YiliLin still here with us? Is there really
a hierarchy of ascent with the coffins? a particular arrangement based
on the status of the deceased in the family?
Malryn (Mal)
April 18, 2000 - 07:04 pm
Andrea, according to plans being made in the North Carolina discussion in Geographic Communities, YiLiLin and dragonfly were supposed to meet with some others at Manteo for a mini-bash last Saturday. Unfortunately, I could not go. I could be confused about this, but I think that if YiLiLin is in NC she is not online.
I searched Confucian burial rituals, but could not find the answer to your question.
Mal
Barbara St. Aubrey
April 19, 2000 - 12:23 am
Well, as Ginny noted, Pearl uses the word often - well, I just completed the read and I must sort it all through. One observation, it seems Wang's life is
in 3. First, he hungers for his land and it becoming abundant; than he learns to be a successful steward of the land and becomes wealthy with as many
problems that he is almost as overwhelmed as when he had to go south to keep his family alive, especially the fear of keeping his wealth. But also
during this period of his life he wants to enjoy life's beauty. Where his passion was for his earth, it is now in this delicate woman called Lotus and
finally he wants the peace and contentment of an old man and yet, wants to be fair and loving to his sons and those that are helpless that are dependent
on him for protection.
He has 3 woman that reflect these different passages in his life. He has 3 sons that each characterize a piece of his character. The older wanting the
prestige that Wang continued to seek until he smites his shame as a poor farmer and finally lives as the Lord of Hwang. The middle son who is thrifty
and connivingly capable of making money as Wang connivingly adjusted his fields during the time of the locusts and connivingly subdued his greedy Uncle and with thrift accumulated his gold and silver, hiding it in the earth and even greedily takes the pearls from O-Lan; and finally the youngest,
although having much of O-Lan's ways is still the fierce fighter that was Wang during his entire life. Wang fought for the earth and what he thought was correct where as his son wants to fight for a revolution which we assume he sees as correct, but I got the impression he was as enraged about his station in life that prevented him from having what his father took, that like Wang he is filled with this need to equal if not better the one he was made to feel less than. I could almost see the future, the third son marching on the "House of Wang" with his red army and taking over the quarters.
It is interesting in that I remember when I was first learning about some of the Chinese Indonesian woman I've helped and befriended, when I asked
about their families they very matter of fact said they had no idea. That after their marriage, their husband's parents became the woman's parents. Except for only one or two of the woman they only heard from their parents every few years. Now the one woman, no, that was not her story. As a young girl, she and her mother hid in the jungle from the Japanese during WWII and ate what was wild etc. there was an embarrassed talk of being protected
from rape. Also, her husband's parents were killed during the war and so their situation did not match the other families.
ALF
April 19, 2000 - 04:45 am
Barbara:
I think you're right with the 3 dimensional ananlysis.- all leading
to the inevitable..
Mal: Thanks
for your search on the entombment question. Another question
I had in an earlier post was not addressed by anyone, either. In
the first chapters when Wang went for his shave, he became agitated when
the barber good-naturedly threatened to cut off his "tail". Is that
symbolic in Chinese families? He fearfully squealed that he would
have to check with his father before he could allow that. I didn't
understand if that was an insult or merely playful teasing on the part
of the barber.
Ginny
April 19, 2000 - 05:13 pm
Barbara, this is brilliant: "He has 3 sons
that each characterize a piece of his character. " Oh WOW, yes.
But none of them have his love of the land. What does that mean, I wonder?
Now note that here we and the entire village seem to think Wang has "made it?" But do his riches bring happiness? This whole thing is a cycle, like YiLi Lin said.
I'm looking forward to her return and to find out if she FOUND the book!!!
But people are now speaking of him as the House of Wang, and he likes that. And by the end of Chaptrer 30 he encounters the gateman's old wife again (he has never forgotten his experience there, never), and she's nothing now, he has triumphed, but has he?
"It seemed none was wholly at peace or comfortable." They've taken over the huge old House of Hwang and cleaned it up and still the only thing he finds comfort in is his grandson and he makes a cradle like his father did. Wang the Rich Man has arrived.
And the birth of his grandson reminds him of his good wife and he grieves that he took the pearls, and he should. This is powerful stuff and totally universal. How often a person in grief finds something he might have done differently? He sat next to the body of Ching all night and it gave him comfort, compare that with our modern funeral homes and the....well, what do YOU think of the "visitation" rites now?
Is Wang changing? On page 295 he turns up HIS nose at the poor, and he despises them?
I also thought it was interesting that he buried his despised uncle below his father but above where he might be. So even in death this male dominated society keeps on, note we do not know the names of his sons, just eldest son, second son, etc.
Again, on page 315 the young man is able to convince his father because he knows "his father cared mightily for what people said of him..." Is that a change?
I'm wondering if we are seeing a change here in Wang Lung. Doesn't this remind you a heck of a lot of ANIMAL FARM? Where the pigs put on clothes and became the dominators themselves? It might be interesting to read it quickly again...
And in the end the cycle continues in both books, I can't wait to read the last five chapters and SEE whether or not I think Wang Lung has triumphed or has fallen!
Ginny
Barbara St. Aubrey
April 19, 2000 - 09:41 pm
Ginny my impression is there is not triumph nor fall. It is man with a passion for the earth who sees all things originating from the earth and in the end, returns to his earth surrounded by the coffin made of strong wood grown from the earth. The strong wood of his coffin that will last longer then his body, is like Wang himself, his experiences strengthened him till he is stronger and his influence will last beyond his grave affecting another generation or more.
We may feel uncomfortable with his choice of woman as 'recreation' but when you think of it, most successfull folks want to display their success in their choice of play. This was not an educated man who would turn to the arts and he does not adapt the vise of liquor or opium. In this time and place where does a man find celebration, experience pleasure or express his passions other than in his work and the tea houses, which appear from the story to be, a houses of woman? Amazing though, when compared to our world today, he takes on the complete resposiblity for the welfare of all those he adds to his life, from old friend Ching to a young servant who goes to the cousin in place of Pear Blossem. Here, today, many men have problems caring for discarded wives where as even in Europe wives are not discarded and are cared for while the man has his additional amours and resulting families.
Politics seems to be a different system based on a hierarchy of age and financial importance. The only time the farmers in the area do band together to finance the building of the dike the one chosen to carry out the task, absconded the funds for his own benefit.
The cycle of life or wheel of life is hinted as we listen to Wangs thoughts as a grandfather playing with his young grandchildren as he remembered his father playing with his young children.
The seeds of revolution I think are hinted at when Wang, of the older way, the way of control and power, affects others because of age and wealth, takes for himself what his son has affection. "Now the sons of Wang lung could not speak against their father's wife, nor could their wives speak if they did not, nor could the youngest son, but he stood there staring at her, his hands clenched on his bosom and his brows drawn down over his eyes, straight and black." This is the look we know from earlier passages is the youngest's way of speaking with his face rather than with words. "Thus he stood and at last he said in a low and surcharged voice, "Now I will go for a soldier--I will go for a soldier--" But he did not look at the girl, only at his father, and Wang Lung, who had not been afraid at all of his eldest son and his second son, was suddely afraid of this one,...Suddenly he turned and looked at the girl once...Then the yound man tore his eyes from her..." Wang's father never took from him, but he, Wang, takes for himself Pear Blossom who the youngest son feels drawn and wants.
Wang rose within the system to finally sit on the dias and proclaim his slave in marriage but his youngest son does not have the same respect for the system and sees that power can be had by aggression as the soldiers took. There is no place for him to compete with his brothers since they have that competition locked between the two of them without room for a third. That leaves the youngest free of that competition and in order to win he must override both of them. Therefore, a larger more powerful aggression, like the cloud of locusts that desended on the area and as the soldiers like a hord of locusts desended, the clouds of Mao are gathering with the youngest son having a significant role.
What is the Shakespeare story of the king that divides his land between three daughters and their husbands and it ends in war? I've seen that play done where the King, rather than going mad justs wants the easy and peace of not taking on the responsiblity as a king and as a result leaves his legacy to be fought over by his children. This is like Wang wanting his peace and not truly controlling the differeces between his sons. Except for giving the servant in marriage Wang really remains more as a retired stewart to the land than does he ever take on the authority of his position leaving the sons to quibble without the 'authority of position' but seeing to their understanding of the families 'responsibility of position.'
It appears what Pearl S. Buck did was take huge world situations and show them in simple forms in the context of this Chinese family. During the early 1930s a political hierarchy based on Royalty was prevelant world wide, as was the concept of woman being nothing more then, maybe beloved, essentially barter, sex objects, that provided births as lineage to families. There had been world wide depression that only now are we learning had little to do with the stock market crash and much to do with world commerse, weather change and the unfair settlements in the aftermath of WW I.
I think this is shown when we realize Wang was more Imperial than the Old Lord. Wang owned just about all the land in the area where as when Wang was a young man starting out, he was not a tenent farmer. The Old Lord may have owned the most desirable land but he left the other farmers alone, laissez-faire - where as Wang divided the land to tenant farmers who paid him not only half their produce but other concession as well. All seeds of un-fairness and unrest that sparked Mao's revolution.
betty gregory
April 21, 2000 - 08:07 am
Ginny, Barbara, such interesting observations in the last few posts. Especially interesting the reflections on the 3 sons. The posts all along have been more interesting for me than the book.
So, here's the thing. I cannot make myself finish this blasted book. I don't so much feel critical of the book (as in how "boring" it is or page after page of women in "property" roles). It's more a feeling of letting myself down, of the usual work ethic---finish the book no matter what---being momentarily lost. I'm letting this discussion down, too. But, there it is.
I'm still immensely curious about Buck's purpose, her message. Is she saying the system is sick, that any individual caught up in this system, no matter his humble/righteous beginnings, is doomed? And, therefore, is she saying that revolution is inevitable, necessary? That all roads lead to revolution? Is her purpose to say this (or something else) from the point of view of people of China? Does the book present her case or her perception of their case? Or can there be a difference?
My questions can be put off until after the last pages are discussed.
Barbara St. Aubrey
April 21, 2000 - 11:59 pm
Oh dear having finished I just blundered on giving my impression irrespectful of any plan for this discussion - oh well - I think Pearl S. Buck touched on her message so delicatly that it was hard to unmask with such a simple but powerful story. Yes, today we would consider the story melodramatic but I am thinking back to stories like "God's Little Acre" and "The Grapes of Wrathe" written in a similar earthy, simple yet powerful style.
The earth is spoken to so often and in an almost measured cadence throughout that it is almost like a prayer, a mantra, a litany. It was only after I completed the read that I saw the story of this family as a mirror of the devision of power at the time. Or rather a reflection of the social economics of the world within the life experience of Wang and his family group.
Of course most any writter that can weave a story centered in Asia brings the exotic like walking through the main door of an important older established department store where the variety of perfume scents make the whole shopping experience seem speacial.
I really can see Yili Lin's point of setting aside good and bad rather,looking at what the characters took from their various experiences. How these experiences strengthened or althered their values and priorities. I also think, what was different for us reading this story is, we know what happened next where as those reading it back in the 30s did not have history to help them make more of the seeds of discontent being sown and alluded to in this story.
This is an amazing time in history and the discussion 'The Greatest Generation" made me so aware that a nation in painful depression can react in so many different ways. In the US we had a president instilling courage and speaking to fear as being the great culpret. In Germany there was Hitlar reminding everyone of and blaming their age old scape goat, the Jews and also speaking of National pride in their historic might and power. It appears in China the people were starting to revolt against the old ways of power which historically was in the hands of the few and those few being powerful because of wealth and age and often a lineage to the Imperial dynasty.
Ginny
April 22, 2000 - 05:59 am
These last two posts might be a good jumping off place for our last week's discussion of the final five chapters, what IS your overall impression of the message of this book and/ or the book itself?
I need to make one final change in the photos above, but that photo of theose men bowing to each other and the canopied carrier over that "bridge" make me in awe that we can even begin to understand the mind of people so far removed to us in culture and habit?
And yet I feel that I do understand him and that all men seem to have the same thoughts and feelings and emotions about a lot of things. I think that was her ultimate message.
Every man is the same no matter where he finds himself. I think that's true.
As far as the questions in the header, I think the turning points in Wang Lung's life were his taking a bride, his taking the money , his taking the House of Hwang, and his moving from the land.
I see three of those as negative and one as positive. As to "how can you say that, he's RICH, people come to him, he started his own bank, he lends money, he's RICH!!!!"
What profit a man if he gain the whole world....
I think he's lost more than he gained. I guess it's better thancstarving like Ching and I guess in this world you have the choice to provide and succeed materially or not. And certainly there's no happiness in poverty, certainly his experience at the gate seared him forever, but money in his case certainly did not bring happiness.
I also think the loss of O-Lan meant a great deal to her children since she was the one apparently who kept in touch with them. I guess if you all live in one room your father can pay you more attention than if you live in a big house, that was another fault of his.
Certainly nothing we read there is at odds with our own Capitalistic society, is it?
Just as true today as it was in 1931, even to the raising of the tenant's rent (Donald Trump) to evict them.
Betty, is the simplicity of the style what turns you off of the book?
ginny
ALF
April 22, 2000 - 09:42 am
Betty: You are right in relating how much more you enjoy the postings than the actual read. Haven't we done the same thing that PB has done though? We've hashed over the pros and cons of "man", his desires and needs & have ultimately come to the conclusion that we are ALL the same. Isn't that what she is telling us ? All of the efforts and the struggles eventually lead to the same destination-- no matter how we get there or whom we hurt along the way. Maybe I see this as too spiritual but I have the sensation of finality as each of our characters returns to the earth- as in dust to dust and ashes to ashes. It is our final destination, globally.
Barb: The earth being Wang's God, his mantra, I mentioned early in our reading discussion. That thought became stronger with each chapter.
Ginny: Good question> Does anyone feel that this novel was written too simply?
Dansker
April 22, 2000 - 10:45 am
Key changes in Wang Lung's life might be separated into categories. There were natural changes out of his control, such as drought, flooding, locusts etc.. Broad social changes were seen in war which seemed to be coupled with revolution and, at times robber barons (e.g.his uncle and the red band). More localized change occured within the city and ultimately within his family. The education of his sons would be an example of that.
If we were to look at anyone's life, we might see the same categories of changes mentioned above. The great earthquake of 1906 in San Francisco, the 1930's "dust bowl" drought that sent farming families on a mass migration west, World War 2 that spurred interatial cooperation (e.g. black migration from the south to west coast shipyards)and women replacing men in factories (e.g. "Rosie the riveter"). In addition, there is the education level that has produced a technological (first)world that frees many men and women from backbreaking labor.
The book starts out with the first major change in Lung's life, his marriage. The dual dias scenes, as has been pointed out, round out the cycle of the better part of his life. His accepting marriage to O-lan was the start of his good fortune. In his mind his place on the dias in the final dias marriage scene was a halmark of his success.
As for natural change, the drought certainly qualifies. Without it he would not have seen a different city world where the virtues of working the land were absent, he would not have fallen into the gold which enabled him to buy more good land on his return to the farm and he would not have had a close up view of panicky change with the back gate fleeing of the rich.
In the family sense the return of the criminally connected uncle changed the fabric of his family, along with a pervasive flood that found him with idle time to explore the rich man's tea houses and their ephemeral pleasures. Enter Lotus and the attendant problems.
Regarding education, the change here is antithetical to what we adhere to in our modern world. His sons' education separates them from the land, raises them in society to a place where they can look down upon the very source of their affluence. Not one son takes up his father's role as a farmer. The eldest is snobish and spends lavishly. The second son is miserly and grasping. His youngest becomes a revolutionary soldier, an enemy to people like his father.
Robert Frost's phrase from "The Road Not Taken" comes to mind fittingly, concerning the connection of changes in Lung's life. "Way leads onto way" says the poet.
As for liking the novel, I enjoyed it far more than I had anticipated. There seems much that is universal in our lives on this planet. Also, I have lurked and learned from all the excellent comments that have been posted. Thanks, all.
Ginny
April 22, 2000 - 01:00 pm
Dansker, WHERE have you been? I have missed you!!
Yes, great points about turning points in his life, some natural and beyond his control and some under his own control.
That's true, too about the pursuit of education leading to their having left the land and scorning those who stay.
I just finished the book and I will just say I have chills. He's come full cycle now, even moves back out to his old house and sits in the sun. I'm doing to disagree with my earlier premise of loss, or am I?
In the very last sentence of the book is a warning and a lesson to those of us who think we can control the future.
So does he or does he not succeed?
Maybe this is pushing all my buttons, I'm telling you this line "When he woke in the dawn he went out and with his trembling hands he reached and plucked a bit of budding willow and a spray of peach bloom and held them all day in his hand" had me tearing up. Have you ever seen something like that?
It's about loss and longing and aging (and the old gent was only 65!! when he feels age creeping up on him). It's about the cycles of life, he has BECOME his old father but with a difference, see the last line, and is he happy at the end?
I don't know, but this book, more than any other book we've read here in the last 3 1/2 years has spoken to me more personally than I thought possible.
I see all sorts of new things in it now, about sons and land and our parents, all sorts of things. This was an extremely wise woman whatever her political leanings , wise in the way of men and women and wise in the way of life.
I think she's saying you can't control anything to your own choosing no matter how rich and materially successful you are. Certainly Wang lost that battle anyway and we may all lose it.
Ginny
betty gregory
April 22, 2000 - 02:47 pm
I did not dislike the book, and I found a certain elegance in its simplicity---"cadence" is just the right word, Barb, for some of Buck's emphasis of the "earth." It didn't hold my attention.....maybe the same old problem of trying to deliberately slow down the reading for a discussion schedule (have tried it both ways) or, it's just me and has nothing to do with this book. Although, I did pick up Neil Simon's Rewrites and zoomed through, thoroughly engaged. Ok, maybe it was the so-familiar no-surprises story. Or maybe I have a saturation limit on stories of women whose lives are so little valued, i.e., girls for sale, bound feet, dead babies. It's not just that, because there are newer ways to tell these stories. Toni Morrison's Beloved, for example. You don't even know the language until she gives it to you. Maybe that's a poor example.
Never mind. Just talk around me.
ALF
April 22, 2000 - 02:55 pm
Betty I love that! "You don't know the language until she gives it to you."
Ginny
April 22, 2000 - 03:42 pm
Betty!! Talk around you? Never. Isn't it interesting how this book seems to stress different things to different people? You centered on the women being devalued, which there certainly is a lot of. I zeroed in on the land thing, the sons, maybe because I've been trying to do the same thing Wang was (minus the devaluing of women) myself. And again, the elderly, the....I don't know, but it's true, her voice is true.
I think it's a pretty good book which manages to speak to everybody, but I did enjoy it so much.
Sorry about the staggered schedule, we pretty much have to go on who volunteers to lead the book and how they want to take it. Charlie will do Presidential Powers in May and Sarah T will do Daughter of Fortune and JULY IS UP FOR GRABS!!
So don't hesitate to jump in, Anybody, anytime.
Any other thoughts on the end of the book? Did it surprise you? What did you expect?
Ginny
Ginny
April 22, 2000 - 03:46 pm
And wasn't it Barbara, who mentioned Lear and his three daughters? Reminds me a little of Smiley's A Thousand Acres of Land, too , which of course, was derivitative of Lear itself.
Ginny
betty gregory
April 22, 2000 - 05:14 pm
One thing I thoroughly enjoy, Ginny, is how you write of what a book means to you, how connected you are to the writing, and of the transforming effect. That's just what books do to me. And don't you think different books mean something to us at different times----maybe phases, maybe just moods. But I really do appreciate your unselfconscious telling of a book's effect.
ALF
April 24, 2000 - 09:01 am
"If you sell the land, it is the end."
Suprisingly, I thouroughly enjoyed this book. I loved the passion of Wang for his land, the sentimentality and the sincerity of Ms Buck.
Joan Liimatta
April 24, 2000 - 10:25 am
Well, I finished the book. I enjoyed it but still sit here wondering what I thought of Wang Lung. He had a gentle caring side to him, but seldom let it show. The land was all important to him, but in the end he didn't have the close connection to it as he could hire help and later rent out land to others. He does make a reconnection near the end of his life and I think that was good. It struck me how he disliked some of the traits in his sons that he himself exhibited. He seemed to sometimes realize what O lan had done for him, but seemed to have no respect for her. This bothered me a lot. It seemed to me that he felt he had bettered himself and no longer needed to put up with someone of her status.
It struck me strange how he referred to the Poor Fool, but still had a concern for her. I realize all the more just how little value girls carry in such a culture.
As someone else pointed out, the discussion in here has been almost more fascinating than the book.
Northern Joan
ALF
April 24, 2000 - 01:45 pm
Joan: do you think that he saw himself in the "little fool?" I couln't help but get the feeling that PB used "the little fool" to portray Wang's desperation, ignorance and vulnerabilities.
Barbara St. Aubrey
April 24, 2000 - 02:08 pm
Oh Alf how absolutly perfect - I do not know that Wang conciously saw himself in the fool but for the understanding of the story it works. He certainly couldn't bare to part with that most vulnerable side of himself could he and he wanted Pear Blossem to care for that vulnerablility or the fool after Wang's body dies.
ALF
April 24, 2000 - 02:12 pm
No, Barb, I don't believe that it was on a conscious level. I believe he truly loved the child for all of the wonderment and joy she seemed to find in their harsh lives..
Joan Liimatta
April 24, 2000 - 03:59 pm
Alf, I think you are right. Remember early on she struck a sympathetic chord with him and he did take care of her....after a fashion .... but then no one else would have even done that. It is so hard to give him credit as it seems so cruel to call her the Little Fool.
You can tell I was never an English major ....never learned to find all those meanings in the writing. It has been most enlightening listening to you people.
Just the math major,
Northern Joan
ALF
April 25, 2000 - 09:12 am
Joan: don't you dare deride yourself that way. I have been in many discussions with you and admire the wisdom in your posts.
I am not an english major either and I know that is apparent. I type like I speak, flitting from thought to thought- much too quickly.
My husband says the opposite, he says I speak like I type....like morse code.
CharlieW
April 25, 2000 - 09:14 am
Hmmmm. I THINK like I type. Hunt and peck for thoughts...
Barbara St. Aubrey
April 25, 2000 - 11:01 am
Wow a lot of us are not English Majors and I too follow the thread of my questions that various words and scenes bring to my attention. Just this enormous curiosity - I was the kid with all the questions that drove parents and teachers crazy.
betty gregory
April 25, 2000 - 11:50 am
I guarantee you I look up more words for spelling than any other human alive. Coming to the point has never been my strength, speaking or typing. Staying ON the topic is challenging. Children were not allowed to speak freely when I was a child...which is bound to be connected to my going on and on....
ALF
April 26, 2000 - 06:25 am
BETTY: I wonder IF that is true? I was raised that way also. "Children should be seen and not heard." I honestly accepted that credo while raising my own children and my 33 yr. old daughter hates that expression to this day. I chatter away all of the time, whether to myself or someone else and so does she! I wonder if that is proof in the "pudding" to what you've said.
Hey Charlie: Hunt and peck huh? In pursuit of words? What an image. Are you getting ready for Presidential Powers discussion? Come on everybody and join Charlie. This is one scary, well written, unphanthomable book. (sp) I am half way thru it and love it.
Betty: Curiosity breeds conversation and interaction. You go girl!
ALF
April 28, 2000 - 08:22 am
My final thoughts:
We have been richly linked throughout this novel with China- an oriental culture. In general I felt a universalality, a familiarity, if you will, with the characterizations. It is a human story and could have transpired anywhere. I sensed nothing uncommon in its intensity or depth. Wang is merely a man of wants, needs, desires and aspirations. The ultimate reason we differ from other species is our ability to chose. I sensed the overriding subject here was the choices each character opted for and Ms. Buck applied her skills in dipicting these fundamental choices.
Any other final thoughts here, folks?
CharlieW
April 28, 2000 - 09:11 am
A minority opinion: This novel moved me not at all. A real shoulder-shrugger for me.
Heresy: I think this was, historically, written on the right subject at the right time - hence it's place in literary history.
Joan Liimatta
April 28, 2000 - 09:47 am
Isn't if funny how differently we see things? I did not see it as a novel of choices.....more apt to be lack of choices. Marriage was arranged, even careers to a point, women had no choices period. Yes, Wang Lung made some choices but as I see it he made all the choices. And yes, things might have turned out differently if he had made different choices.
Northern Joan
Malryn (Mal)
April 28, 2000 - 10:00 am
I said before that I did not like The Good Earth very much, and I must agree with Charlie. "This novel moved me not at all."
Mal
Deems
April 28, 2000 - 10:18 am
A final thought---I wonder why Pearl Buck did not choose to have a female protagonist. Granted, women had no rights, but wouldn't it be interesting if she had attempted to take us inside the mind of a woman? Not my favorite novel--read a while back though. Way back.
Maryal
ALF
April 28, 2000 - 11:57 am
The marriage was the ONLY thing that was not of choice. The choice to stay on The Good Earth, OR leave, choice as to acceptance of his wife, his choice to take a lover, bed a slave, buy the grand house, allow his uncle and family to live within. He was innundated with choices throughout. This is akin to life. His wife made her choices as to how she accepted and lived with her dilemmas. Her choices were "silent" ones.
Charlie and Mal: The profound "simplicity" of the novel is what makes it so enjoyable. I'm sorry you didn't like it. I hate to read a book I don't like. Isn't this strange. You both liked "Waiting" and I found it disagreeable. That is why reading is so subjective- just like music.
Malryn (Mal)
April 28, 2000 - 01:27 pm
I did not read "Waiting", Andrea.
There are all kinds of technical reasons why I didn't like The Good Earth, among them the fact that Pearl Buck strayed from her original premise in the beginning of the book and turned it into a kind of romance novel that did not have much to do with her original point of view. This can happen to a writer, and as I read somewhere, there was just so far Buck could go with the good or not so good earth.
As Charlie suggested, the book came along at the right time and served a very good purpose for that time, as well as providing the author with income and prize money to support her 14 adopted kids and the causes she espoused.
Like some others, I found the messages in this discussion, especially the extensive research Barbara did, were often more interesting and intriguing than the book itself.
Mal
Joan Liimatta
April 28, 2000 - 02:16 pm
As I said, I feel Wang Lung was the only one with choices. I don't think O'lan had any choice in the matter of accepting him. She was bound by tradition to be the wife and work for him. What choice did she have? And what would she have done if she didn't want to remain his wife? Even Lotus, who perhaps has some choice in whether to come to live with him or not, didn't have any great choices in her life. Women were truly treated as property.
I feel that one thing the book did, was give us a great deal of insight into life in China at that time. Insight into the thinking and behavior of the men and women. Also, a little insight into customs and religion.
Northern Joan
ALF
April 29, 2000 - 07:06 am
On behalf of Ginny and myself, I want to thank all of you who have joined in on this discussion -which was my first endeavor as a co-leader. The insight and information that each one of you individually bring to these discussions always amaze me. As a collective group you "gel", making the verbal exchange so significant. I was a bit leary at first accepting this job as co-leader but each of you has made it a pleasure. Thank you.
Andrea
betty gregory
April 29, 2000 - 07:24 am
I didn't realize this was your first, Alf. Good discussion, huh?!!....even if I didn't enjoy the book as much as I wanted. A few years back, I might even have wondered, what's wrong that I can't get into this book...so it feels like a learning process to discover with others why something didn't appeal.
Malryn (Mal)
April 29, 2000 - 08:38 am
Good job, Andrea! A pat on the back, Ginny, for another successful book discussion!
Mal
Jim Olson
April 29, 2000 - 09:26 am
I am including here a report on an Elderhostel Program that
might interest some of you:
Historic Yellow Springs Elderhostel March 2-7 2000
ruthandeli@spiderruth.com
Yellow Springs, near Chester Springs and Exton Pa, had been a
favorite health spa dating from pre-Revolutionary times. After
the Revolutionary War it continued to be used as a spa, and in
later years as a school and home for children orphaned during
the
Civil War, and still later, as a movie studio, and art school. It
was also the site of the first army hospital during the
Revolutionary war. Today it serves as a cultural center, library,
and the old Inn serves elegant meals.
During the course of the Elderhostel we were introduced to the
history of the area, as well as a demonstration of the medical
practices current during the Revolutionary War, the architectural
styles of the farm homes in the area, and the lives of Pearl
Buck, and James Michener, who had been area residents. All of
the
lecturers were excellent, and very knowledgeable with regard to
their subject. We even had Pearl Bucks adopted daughter speak
to
us. There was an especially good mix of lectures and field trips.
We visited Yellow Springs, of course, but also Longwood
Gardens,
the Brandywine Museum, the Michener Museum, and the home
of Pearl
Buck.
The accommodations were superb, in a Best Western
Convention
Center complete with an indoor swimming pool, which we made
use
of. The food was very good by Elderhostel standards, but I would
only rate it as satisfactory for such a fine hotel. Most of our
meals were taken at the hotel. We had one outstanding dinner at
the Yellow Springs Inn. This was followed by excellent
entertainment. As our last lecture on Friday morning we were
also
entertained by an accomplished professional magician. Most
noteworthy, however, was the friendliness and helpfulness of the
coordinator and the Elderhostel hosts. I would recommend this
Elderhostel, and any others offered by the Yellow Springs
Historic Complex.
YiLi Lin
April 29, 2000 - 04:04 pm
Well looks like I got discharged from the hospital in time to say thank you and what's next. Did want to make a comment though- as I tried to catch up I thought the thread followed by Barbara and Alf during my absence about characterization and the novel as... very intersting and too bad i missed putting in my two cents.
Thanks again.
betty gregory
April 29, 2000 - 04:14 pm
You were in the hospital?? Did we know? Did I read past it one day? Wish I'd known. I often thought of you as we discussed this book---after we took you to task for information at the beginning. Did you FIND your book again? Has this book reached a status of bad omen or bad luck----hospital, etc.? (said with a grin) It has such an interesting history in your life. Any final thoughts (or not so final)?
Barbara St. Aubrey
April 29, 2000 - 04:19 pm
Wow Alf - I didn't realize this was a first attempt on your part - Bravo and thanks for responding to our wondering thoughts.
Hmmm like or not...yes I would have to say I liked the read. Any book that has me asking questions I value. The story line was simple and a word I've used earlier melodramatic...and it smarts to read of the placement of woman in society which is the stabbing pain I am sure any group feels that has been denyed; opportunity, making life choices and treated with unequal respect to another group in the society. I think the big aha for me that I knew but I forget is, it matters not what your circustances are in life you are never problem free.
Never completed the Pearl S. Buck Biography but have purchased a few of her other books that I am reading and enjoying.
Oh my Jim "a spa, and in later years as a school and home for children orphaned during the Civil War, and still later, as a movie studio, and art school. It was also the site of the first army hospital during the Revolutionary war. Today it serves as a cultural center, library, and the old Inn serves elegant meals." not only does it sound facinating I had not thought and yes there would be orphans after the Civil War...and here there was actually a place used for their care.
Hospital Yili Lin???
Malryn (Mal)
April 29, 2000 - 05:22 pm
YiLi, I thought you were in Manteo not too long ago having lunch with Ben Newt and his wife. Hope you're okay.
Mal
ALF
April 29, 2000 - 07:15 pm
Our leader, Ginny, is in Rome for the week. I will be on Captiva Island, starting tomorrow, until Friday. I will not have access to a computer and will more than likely tremor from the withdrawal.
I will leave the post open for any further thoughts or comments you have. I shall return on friday.
Ella Gibbons
April 29, 2000 - 08:57 pm
Hello Andrea or Bye Andrea! A very good discussion even though I didn't stick with it too long; however, I finished the book and have posted my thoughts earlier, so I will leave it at that! Thanks for all the effort you put into the discussion - a really good job!
Northern Joan: We were at that same Elderhostel a few years ago and loved it! Did you get the lovely candelit dinner at the old historic Tavern with Jenny Lind (very good impersonation wasn't she?) singing? Delightful and what a wonderful thing those people in that vicinity have done. You probably know that a developer wanted to buy the land those 7 historic buildings or remains of buildings were on and the people around there formed a Trust to keep it all intact and do the Elderhosteling to inform people of the importance of our national heritage.
Joan Liimatta
April 29, 2000 - 10:15 pm
Oops, Ella, I was not at the elderhostel but thought it sounded like a good one to put on my list. Jim Olson posted the remarks from someone's comments in the elderhostel folder....or Newsletter.
Northern Joan
YiLi Lin
April 30, 2000 - 09:43 am
Yep I was in Manteo, just goes to show you how every moment presents new events. And no Betty you probably did not miss a note- al happened so fast.
So now I must try to get the upcoming reads especially the Allende book. Thanks again for a wonderful discussion.
ALF
May 3, 2000 - 06:59 am
Thank you, everyone, once again, for your participation and enlightening conversation. Ginny and I have appreciated your comments and I look forward to moving on to "the next " assignment. I will leave this open for a few more days, then speak to one of the SN staff regarding the procedure to "archive" it.
dorisann
August 10, 2002 - 03:34 pm
I read the book many years ago and was mesmerized by it. I did not want it to end. I remember being happy when the baby was dressed in red at the beginning. I remember being sad when she had to surrender her pearls for another woman at the end. Women did not have a happy time of it in that era. I felt glad to be in America.
patwest
August 10, 2002 - 06:41 pm
Hello, dorisann... I think it great that you have found our archives.
And I hope that you will also take a look atour current discussions in our Book Main Menu.
Books & Literature Main Menu
GingerWright
August 10, 2002 - 08:34 pm
Welcome dorisann We are always glad to have readers here. Please check out where Pat W has posted to look and enjoy.
Welcome
Ginger