Harry Potter: Sorcerer's Stone ~ JK Rowling ~ 1/00 Export

Start the Century by reading...
one of the #1, #2, and #3 NEW YORK TIMES Best Sellers in 2000!

Everyone, Welcome to Our Hogwarts!
This winter season we are giving ourselves and our grandchildren / child-friend the gift of an
'Inter-Generation Book Discussion'.
Take your seat in our Great Hall below and post your thoughts on, the Hottest Best Seller in bookstores today!

Let's hear about your favorite part, idea, or favorite line from Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone

There is the magical world of Harry Potter but, we believe in Harry because he is a real boy, with human frailties....the power lies in the truths revealed about the real world.

"The truth. It is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution." (page 298)
Describe how you see truth as a beautiful and terrible thing.

We start discussing Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets on
Friday, February 11, - Join Us!

If you are a reader under the age of 13, Please start your post:

with your AGE...and if you read the book, or if someone read the book to you.

Seniors, if your young-reader, is not available, please post their remarks for us to enjoy.
Good fun aside, this is our discussion page, therefore, we will also look forward to
many special posts with mature thoughtfulness about Harry Potter's adventures.

Pottersville
About the Author, Reviews
|| Interview-JK Rowling ||Sorcery isn't just for kids (Salon) || About Author-JK Rowling ||

Special Interests Links
||A Fabulous Owl Mask to Print, Cut Out and Wear when Reading HP ||
|| Onyx Dimensions (complete witchcraft) || Owls || Harry's Snowy Owl || Snowy Owls ||
||Owl Prowl: research for & by students || Harry Potter email postcards ||
|| Mr. Fickle's Fabulous Fudge Wins Grand Prize in Harry Potter Magical Candy Contest ||

|| Encyclopaedia Potterica || Meaning of Character Names || Hogwarts ||
|| Diagon Alley || Nicolas Flamel & the Holy Grail || Nicolas Flamel's Testment ||

Pull up a Chair and Browse the Links - Post a Thought
We're on winter break till Feb.11, when we start ...Chamber of Secrets
Your Discussion Leader is
Barbara St. Aubrey

7% of your purchase price will be donated to SeniorNet!

This is one read that is just tickling my insides. I can't wait to tell my Grandboys that their Grandmother is not only going to read the book they have been most excited about but that we are actually going to discuss it on 'The Computer' AND I want them to look over my shoulder as we post together their thoughts about Harry Potter.

I'm not sure if I'm more excited about the read or hearing them tell me, in all their excitment and seriousness, their reaction to the story.

My son has 3 boy Harry Potter fans; Chris age 10 and Cooper and Cody, the twins age 9. My daughter has two boys fans, Ty just turned 9 and Cade age 5.

We can all be off to Hogwarts, the school for wizardry and witchcraft this holiday season and during the quiet of post-holiday, January.

Can not wait to read what all the shouting has been about, Can You!

Come on for the ride and vote which book we shall read!

Hi Barbara: I'll vote for this one as I bought it recently at a school book fair when I was at school to read aloud to several of my old classes of kids.

My 10 year old grandson has all 3 books. His Mom says he has read them. I will try to get his opinion by e-mail. He is not always willing to discuss books with Granny. Our other grandsons are only 2 1/2 and 1 and too young yet for Harry Potter.

I finished on the way to the beach for Thanksgiving. I thought it was very appealing. While we were down at the beach, my 34 year old son, father of the 2 babies, also read and enjoyed it. He has always like that Dungeons and Dragons stuff as well as Science Fiction. Sue

HeHeHe we are off and running - this is going to be so much fun.

OK 1 for Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone.

I read HP and the Sorcerer's Stone too--last fall before I gave it to my grandson for his birthday. Thought it was pret-ty cute! Grandson was pretty busy all fall with the flag football [his team won the championship!] and I understand he is still reading this book. Soooooooo I will vote for the first one.

I am basically a non-fiction reader but I have a hunch I'm going to join you here. Although I realize that Harry Potter is not a "Fairy Tale," I often use fairy tales as analogies in working with my patients and love so-called children's stories that are actually much deeper and at the same time fun. I'll be lurking.

Robby

2 for the Sorcerer's Stone and one lurker! Come on Robby take a peek at the clickable reveiws made very short for a quick run down of each book. The second clickable under each book will do that. And than VOTE and Join us...pleeeeaaaassssee????

Okay Barbara, you have peaked my interest, I will go the library tonight and find a Harry Potter- since I am sans grandchildren i guess it would be important for me to read Harry so I can discuss him with my "grand"newphews- though I doubt I will get the book and get it read by the 26th. 'YiLi'

OK - I peeked and I vote for the Sorcerer's Stone.

Robby

Yilil Lin Hahahaheheeh ah ah oh oh hehehe This is so great...I can hardly believe...this is teriffic ahhhhhhhh . That is a scream worthy of grand nephews, Kennedy and Heathrow all combined. The future is here! Shhhh

3 for the Sorcerer's Stone! This first book in the series is now in paper back for only $6. ($5.99) Stocking stuffers, hear ye, stocking stuffers.

Great Robby so glad your going to really join us...I think from the little feed back others have shared, there is more to this as there is in most children's stories. The story is built around a view of death and dying. A boy that goes to wizard school in reaction to his parants death...that should be great stuff for your practice, don't you think!

Robby, can you put the arm on Ella...she is interested but sounds like she thinks she needs a 'grand' sitting on her knee posting in order to join us...With this book I think we could stop any child in the street and get their reaction, we could become the start of community inter-generation talk-ins!

Barbara:

You're going to have to control me to prevent my not only constantly analyzing Harry but everyone else here in the group.

Robby

My book, The Sorcerer's Stone, was shipped yesterday from B&N... cost 2.99 and shipping was .95 since I was ordering other books.

Pat, Well your all ready - my word that is less expensive then the average magazine and some newspapers.

At this point now that Pat has her book Voting may be redundant! Heheh.

I agree it does seem logical to start with the first book, so that we can become aquainted with the characters and situation that allows these tales to grow. I understand from Moms that have read all three books, that book three could stand on it's own and is more thrilling as Harry is older and into more serious adventures. Some of the Moms have ordered book four from London. It is not available yet in the States and the British version is a little different. Some place I've read that when all is published there will be seven books to the series.

well i hope we're voting SS, because last night i picked it up at the library, my friend who works there was amazed when i came in for this book, and there was great bustle about the library to find it on the shelf. i checked it out to a lot of nods and smiles- so methinks there is a Potter cult in the neighborhood that i have inadvertently joined. so i'm up to page 54 and must admit i set aside Tom Wolfe after dinner wanting to know if harry would....oops. i for one will look forward to all the analysis promised.

Do we even wait and give voting a nod or just declare Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone our read??? Sue, from Spring Creek has already read it and encouraged her grown son to read it while they were on vacation; Jeryn read it and gave it to her grand; Pat bought it at a steal of a price, Yili Lin successfully borrowed it from the library; I bought the paperback copy the other night for $5.99; ROBBY that leaves you - have you bought your copy also?

Although the banner may bring other readers to our discussion, it’s difficult to imagine we would have 6 more participants all voting for one of the other books before Friday. I think we may just have a consensus. Let the buying, borrowing, reading, of "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" Begin!

By Friday, I'll have a 'reading - discussing' schedule in the heading and to encourage some discussion, there will be a few focus questions that will change every few days or so.

Oh absolutely!!!! I am so glad the kids are reading something decent! I got stuck on Harry Potter a while ago and it is wonderful!!!

I am so grateful for these books they have made my grandchildren want to read. I find nothing cultic about them. They are all about right and wrong

Barbara:

No, I haven't bought my copy yet but I will very soon and will catch up with you.

Robby

Helen Klingenberg how great to know you are joining us...sounds like you have been reading about the intrepid Harry. I think with all the SeniorNet "owls' flying, we may just start this discussion earlier then originally planned.

Helen have you been reading the Harry Potter tales for your own enjoyment or have you been reading them to a youngster? Really anxious to hear your input.

MerrimackB Don't you think the cult reaction is limited...in fact seems to be limited to one area of the country from all I can tell. Amazing how so much can be read into a story by some folks. You are so right, not only are the youngsters reading but, from all the reviews, it sounds like this is pretty darn good stuff they are reading...what do you think? MerrimackB will you be joining us? Are there any neighbor children or family members that have shared with you their impressions of Harry Potter?

Robert run, don't walk and get your copy of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone...I do believe we are going to start this a little early. Looks like reading your analysis will be a positive addition Robby.

Has anyone actually ever seen an owl? Do they really fly in flocks? Do they live and fly around large cities? Must confess, except for in a zoo, I have never seen a real live owl in the wild. All I can think of when I read about an owl is, Merlin in his tatters and long beard with a brown blinking owl on his shoulder.

We have a horned owl in the barn out on the farm and they are very solitary creatures... And do sound whoosh as they fly... This one has a wingspan of about 3 feet.

Pat do they sleep during the day or just part of the day. Whoosh, wow! And a three foot wingspan! Pat does the owl make noise at night enought to wake you? What feather colors is a horned owl, Pat? And also, have you ever seen any baby owls?

Hi everyone. I am so glad we are going to be or are reading the first book because it's the one I have. Besides I like to begin at the beginning. I look forward to this discussion. Hope some kids will participate, or at least that their responses will be quoted.

Mary

Teriffic maryal_0...so glad you will be joining us. Yes, I too hope we have several young readers give us their percpective on this story. After all, they are the ones that started this phenomena...3 Harry Potter books on the Top of the Best Sellers list.

Give me another day or so and then with questions in the heading it may not be so difficult starting a conversation with a young reader, finding out what they think about this story. We seem to have had some kind of 'bump in the night' or rather afternoon, on Wednesday Dec. 15. If you posted and you find your post is missing, you are not alone. Just re-post, we really like to hear from y'all!

Hi Barbara: I've just come back to SN, having been away for a few days. I don't know if I'll be able to get my hands on the book by Friday....can I jump in any time? It sounds like it will be great fun!

Gail

Owls ... Yes, they sleep most of the day... we've only seen them at dusk or later.. This one is quite dark colored not like the white-faced barn owl. We had a couple of barn owls until the big horned owl came along. We've never seen any babies and don't know if we have a he or she.

Link to Great Horned Owl

You can always tell the male owl because he is the wiser one.

OK - OK - I'm leaving!

Robby

ahahahah hehehe leave it to you Robby...must remember to keep my pant legs rolled up with you joining us...hehehe.

Yes, Gail G Pop in when you have your book. We had folks chomping on their bit having purchased and already reading therefore, the best thing to do was start earlier. In fact this will give us a chance to visit with younger readers who are all out of school as of this Friday.

The discussion will start Sunday December 19

Great photo Pat I don't know how comfortable I would be if that great imposing owl went whoosh around my head at night. He is formidable looking!

Throughout history and across many cultures, Owls have held people in fascination and awe. Few other creatures have so many different and contradictory beliefs about them. Owls have been both feared and venerated, despised and admired, considered wise and foolish, and associated with witchcraft and medicine, the weather, birth and death. Speculation about Owls began in earliest folklore, too long ago to date, but passed down by word of mouth over generations.

In early Indian folklore, Owls represents wisdom and helpfulness, and have powers of prophecy. This theme recurs in Aesop's fables and in Greek myths and beliefs. By the Middle Ages in Europe, the Owl had become the associate of witches and the inhabitant of dark, lonely and profane places, a foolish but feared spectre. An Owl's appearance at night, when people are helpless and blind, linked them with the unknown, its eerie call filled people with foreboding and apprehension: a death was imminent or some evil was at hand. During the eighteenth century the zoological aspects of Owls were detailed through close observation, reducing the mystery surrounding these birds. With superstitions dying out in the twentieth century - in the West at least - the Owl has returned to its position as a symbol of wisdom.

Folklore surrounding the Barn Owl is better recorded than for most other Owls. In English literature the Barn Owl had a sinister reputation probably because it was a bird of darkness, and darkness was always associated with death. During the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, the poets Robert Blair and William Wordsworth used the Barn Owl as their favourite "bird of doom." During that same period many people believed that the screech or call of an Owl flying past the window of a sick person meant imminent death.

The Barn Owl has also been used to predict the weather by people in England. A screeching Owl meant cold weather or a storm was coming. If heard during foul weather a change in the weather was at hand.

Another traditional English belief was that if you walked around an Owl in a tree, it would turn and turn its head to watch you until it wrung its own neck.

Among early English folk cures, alcoholism was treated with Owl egg. The imbiber was prescribed raw eggs and a child given this treatment was thought to gain lifetime protection against drunkenness. Owls' eggs, cooked until they turned into ashes, were also used as a potion to improve eyesight.

Odo of Cheriton, a Kentish preacher the 12th Century has this explanation of why the Owl is nocturnal: The Owl had stolen the rose, which was a prize awarded for beauty, and the other birds punished it by allowing it to come out only at night. In parts of northern England it is good luck to see an Owl.

We live on a farm and have had several barn owls nest in our barn (naturally!). We also hear a barred owl hooting around dusk almost every night down in the woods near our creek. Barn owls are large birds, about 18", but barred owls are larger, 20", and usually live in wooded swampy areas. We can hear him/her say "Who cooks for me?" very plainly if we go out on the front porch or lawn.

I'm hoping my step-grandson will answer my e-mail about Harry Potter. He has all three books, but I'm not sure he has read them. He plays video games a little much for this Granny's liking! He has to go to California to visit his father on the 23rd through the first, so I may have to post his comments later. Sue

Barbara you share the most amazing information, thank you. There is a wonderful book out there (still in print?) I Heard the Owl Call My Name. I remember that my mother read that book and then got a "thing" for owls. This was rather neat because it gave my children a clear sense of what to get grandma for present giving occasions- there were potholder owls, crayon owl pictures, owl candles , napkin holders, and even I could find a miniature ceramic now and then. When my mother visited my sister and they took a jaunt to Mexico she found some treasured owls- all sitting on windowsashes throughout her house. Before she died my mother had this yard sale that really. disrupted the family- she apparently heard the owl call her name and disentangled herself from just about everything (now I understand the gesture), but she did give a handful of owls to my children, now gorwn men and these few owls sit prominently in our dining area. I also had the most wonderful owl designed and engraved on my parents tombstone serving as a totem to guide them through all the passages of eternity.

While I was doing my grad studies my daughter, Cheryl, made a hanging rug for me which was primarily the image of an owl. I was 55 years old at the time and it represented an Older Wiser Learner.

Robby

I think owl get wiser just hanging around in here! Well, Robby! You COULD have mentioned that you bloomed late too! 55! Makes me feel like a spring chicken getting my degree at age 34!

Barbara, you have a great discussion going here already! I will enjoy it immensely--I can just tell!

The imagery of flocks of owls swooping past office building windows is just magical. Now that we know how solitary the owl and the night habits of the owl this imagery is really starting us off into the realms of the mystic. I'm goose bumpy already!

Yili Lin I don't know what is more beautiful, the idea of it or the sentence. I also had the most wonderful owl designed and engraved on my parents tombstone serving as a totem to guide them through all the passages of eternity.

Robby daughters can do the most wonderful and meaningful things to encourage us in our lives can't they.

Jeryn I'm also excited, I think we're all going to get into this one. Looking forward to your imput. How popular this story is, I bet Ron will find some Harry Potter games. If he does would you link them Jeryn, please?

I really have to post this and say that I listened to owls all last night and thought of you all, we have no end of owls; apparently they are different kinds by the soft different whootie whoos, it's very interesting but the dogs don't think so. Sometimes I think the owls hoot just to irritate the dogs! hahahahah

For what it's worth,

Ginny

Is anyone going to "start" reading the book....and if so, at what rate? A chapter a day?? This will be a first for my grandson and I.. joining a discussion list, that is. We are excited about starting. Is it preferable to have finished reading the book to take part in the discussions? grammacece

Welcome Grammacece So glad you found us. Ok you asked the million dollar question Grammacece.

Typically we put a schedule in the heading and most participants either read along with the schedule or read ahead but only post their thoughts on those chapters scheduled for the week. Some share their personal memories that the chapter brings forth, others a beautifully written line, some see the symbolism and do some research to share how the symbol illuminates the story. If there is an unusual phrase, item mentioned, concept, usually someone questions it and the researchers are off and returning with links to pictures or what ever they find. Typically there are various ideas of what the story means and we like to see that the ideas are backed up with references used in the story.

OK, THAT IS USUAL...this time we have several issues not encountered before.

1. We are encourageing young readers to share their thoughts. Hopefully there will be enough young readers that they may post remarks or questions to each other.
2. We have several Grands, Parants,(who may end up posting) and Young Readers, all who have read all three books
3. We have several Grands not living near their grandchildren and hope to email or phone them and get their feedback to post and share with us.
4. We have some that have just bought or borrowed the book and were so facinated they are heavy into reading, with no stopping them.
5. And then we have a few that have not read the book yet and either alone or like yourself, reading it to a youngster, they will be reading the book chapter by chapter over the Christmas holidays.

Grammacece...I think what we will do is rather then relying heavily on a reading discussion schedule, my plan is to have some questions to help focus the posts and then I expect that this discussion will take on a life of it's own.

As you read, share how it went, what y'all got out of it, what confused or if you have questions. Either post for your Grandchild or have him post his own thoughts with your help. Others will be sharing from their perspective, chat among the other posters about their remarks or for that matter question further their remarks if that is appropriate. Together we will all get so much more out of this as well as, make some new friends.

As additional information is researched, that adds to the story, those links will be in the heading. If you find a great link...post it. If you need help making the link into a clickable..ask and I'll help as well as quide your learning how it is done.

Remember, we are not necessarily gearing this discussion to a child or adult level. We will be kind to each other, talk among ourselves and at times talk on a level, age appropriate.

This is Great! My Collage Station Grands may post early. Busy Sunday with Church and Cristmas at Church planned party, group gift wrapping etc. I plan on visiting tomorrow, Saturday. We will log on then and hopfully there will be more posts from them later in the week after I've posted with my Grands in South Carolina. That way they may all talk together about this book. My South Carolina Grands have only completed book one where as my Collage Station Grands have completed all three books and have brought the books to school where they are being read by their teachers to the class.

My curiosity has peaked! I don't have a grandson, but am tempted to corner our little neighbor next door and read with him...he's only five though - is that too young?

Welcome to all the wonderful new Grammas to our Books! I know you will have a terrific experience and invite you continue to hang out with us in our other book discussions after Harry...

OK - I bought my "Sorcerer's Stone" and am ready. I bought the hardback for $15 from Charlotte who runs the bookstore in Warrenton. I could have bought the paperback for less in one of the large chain stores but in the small town where I live we all know each other and do business with each other. Charlotte and I met around eight years ago when we were both taking aerobics classes two mornings a week. It took place in an area where ballet lessons were also given and you should have seen me struggling to get my foot up on to the bar that ballet dancers hold! I was only 71 then and a bit more flexible; I wouldn't even consider it now. But I will consider discussing Harry Potter with you - so I'm ready!

Robby

Welcome, Grammacece, to SeniorNet!

It sure looks as if this is going to be a wonderful discussion on this book, doesn't it? Barbara is sure tweaking our interest!

I've sent you an informational letter that will help you as you further explore these wonderful RoundTables. Enjoy this discussion and I look forward to seeing your posts in other discussions as well.

Pat

Rah, Rah, Rah
Sis cum Bah
Robby bought it, Robby bought it
He's no Muggle!

JoanThanks for peeking in. Oh yes, do join us if only for a post or two. Your neighbor's little one will be enchanted and with the end of every chapter he will want you to go on..."What happens next, Auntie Joan?" My daughter's Cade, only turned 5 last April and they read Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone last spring. It was Cade's first "chapter" book.

And Pat how great for you to continue adding your welcome. We have several new posters to seniornet in this discussion. Welcome Everyone, Young Reader and Mature Reader alike!

Folks Pat, one of our many Canadians, is the one we all turn for help getting our headings set up. She is the worlds wonder at finding just the right colors that match the illustrations on the cover of the books. Pat is at this everyday while caring for her husband who is very ill and Pat, herself, recently had a health scare.Sincere Thanks Pat!

Oh, Barbara, you have me blushing!

HAHAHA! Just love what I do. Thanks so much for your comments, Barbara.

Pat

I just couldn't resist!

I bought all three books at BarnesandNoble.com and received one yesterday, and expect the other two today....

I am planning on giving them to the girls, after I read them first!!!!The Chamber Secrets came first so I am reading it now.....

I really love it...

Thanks for getting me interested in this series.

dapph

Well, I'm cheating, aren't I? It's 1:45 p.m. EST, the day before we're supposed to begin reading Harry Potter and I'm already into it. What did you expect? And I'm chuckling - or as Ginny (wherever she is) might say - "chortling." I'm not sure why I'm chuckling - I guess I'm really giggling because it is not really a book of humor (humorous book). And when a 79 year old man who lives alone with his outdoor dog and indoor long-haired cat sits alone on his living room rocking chair and giggles - well, there's something very odd going on here!

Robby

I'm reading and giggling also. And I have decided I am definitely not a Muggle, thank heaven. You can tell a lot about Mr. and Mrs. Dursley from their name. Say it outloud; read a few pages outloud even if there's only yourself to read to. Just a few pages until you can hear the voice inside your head.

Mary

I think this is wonderful! All you "luckies" that have a grandchild, or little friend to share this book with are gonna really enjoy this. And I am going to be looking over your shoulder.

I must tell you...I rushed out and bought this book about 6 weeks ago, I couldn't stand not owning it. Three best sellers, on an adult best seller list? It had to be something remarkable.

I studied Children's Literature, and researched a lot of children's books, (and yes, wrote a couple myself), so I had to find out what was drawing all the youngsters to read, especially the boys. So this is a busy time, with a lot going on, but I assure you, I will be looking in to see what the youngsters have to say, and yes...the oldsters, too....haha

Carry on....!

Sun

When I was about 8 or 9, I began to be interested in magic (along with a million other things - I hated to go to sleep at night for fear I might miss something). Anyway, that's another subject. At the age of 12 I really became serious and took out books on magic, bought magic kits, created my own tricks, built a table with a hole in it (for making things disappear), built and painted a wand, and actually put on magic shows for other kids. You can see how serious I was about that subject and perhaps you now have a hint as to what intrigues me about Harry Potter.

The little boy in me never grew up, thank God!

Robby

I am 10 years old and my mother read this book to me. My favorite part is when Harry killed Lord Voldemort.

This is an exciting story. I like hearing how Harry can do magic. Sometimes I wish I could do magic. I would like to be able to fly on a broom. If I could do magic special charms like in the second book it would save me from the getting into trouble.

I liked the part when Harry flies on the broom because the author explains it so well. I could see Harry flying.

Duke:

I'm so glad you're with us and reading the book and I hope you continue to be with us. But I have a favor to ask. Please don't tell us what happens later in the story as some of us haven't gotten there yet and we want to be surprised. OK??!!

Robby

This book discussion, I mean. I posted a message several days ago but don't see it, so perhaps it was lost in the "glitch" Seniornet had.

My grandaughter (just turned 12) and I have been having a reading date every Tuesday evening to read Harry. We have finished the third book, and she can't wait for the new one to come out in the spring.

We take turns reading, and she warns me every week I had better not peek at the next chapter without her! My grandson, just turned 7, just wasn't interested in Harry when we tried to get him to sit with us. Since I'll have him here for spring break, I plan to try again.

The books are enchanting, and to those who object to them, what could be more grim than Grimm? Children always have a fascination with wizards and spells - I know I did when I was a youngster (and still do).

Nikki hopes that when they make a film (and they are planning one in 2002, I hear) they will cast the boy from Sixth Sense, Haley Joel Osment, as Harry and the little girl from the Pepsi commercials as Hermione. (I heard J.K. Rowling say some children think her name is Hermi-One!)

I do no have a young person to read to right now. After I started reading I was thinking whew I'm glad. I tried to practice reading out loud and realized my out loud voice is slow and gets out of breath. I was thinking any child would be as impatient as I to get to the next part. I twas thinking it will take me forever to read this book out loud. So all you grandparents and parents give a hint, what do you do to sustain your child's interest in the book?

i'm not sure what we are supposed to be up to so i don't want to jump ahead on robby- i finished the book last night, interesting evening it was, i finished harry and then had the opportunity to see the movie life is beautiful. i thought that perhaps the "magic" of harry created a dimension that led me to the movie, for those of you who also completed the book, i think you know what i mean and see the connection. also it would be an interesting exercise for some to re-read the last chapter and then see life is beautiful. i'd like to hear your thoughts.

BARBARA, can you give us some of your super guidance on the discussion we seem to be a mixed group hear and i don't think anyone wants to encroach on the enjoyment of the read.

thanks

Welcome, Twinkle, to SeniorNet!

It's so good to see that you found this wonderful book discussion! I can just tell it's going to be one of the best!

I've sent you an informational letter, Twinkle, that will help you as you further explore these wonderful vast RoundTables. I hope to see you posting in many of the other discussions.

Talk to you soon,

Pat

Oh my we do have a group posting here today...Welcome Twinkle as I understand it Twinkle the youngsters get so caught up in what will happen next they have difficulty letting the book go for another nights chapter.

Yili Lin I think we will just jump in on this one. There are many at different stages of reading and althought nice to wait, little ones especially, are not experienced giving a chapter by chapter or piece meal impressions. In fact with young readers, I find I must read between the lines to get the gest of what they are saying is important.

I'm going to be spending the next hour or two getting the heading to have some focus with questions. I do not think we adults are at the stage where we are summing up, there are lots of messages/symbols/what the story means; here to discuss.

Robby I'm so glad you are enjoying this book and chortling in you reading chair. Robby, I think because this book is including so many that have read it and children that are so couragous if they do venture into this room of adults, that some may post references to various parts of the book. Hopefully the various posts will just make your reading so much richer, having the benefit of other thoughts. NEWS FLASH...I have only completed 40 pages and so I am with you in not knowing for sure what is refered to by others who have read the book!

Yes Charlotte your post was lost when everything went bump in the night (afternoon) the other day. Thank you so much for coming back and posting. I understand the Brits are posting in their chat rooms that they hope the movie is NOT Americanized. Our books are a tad different then those published in Britian. If I can find it again, there is a great site with the covers of these books from all the various nations; Denmark, Japan, Germany, Italy, Spain, Netherlands, etc. etc. All very different.

Maryl-O a giggler huh! Is it hitting all kinds of happy buttons for you? Interesting when you think of the children's stories that have owls. Merlin and Winnie the Pooh and of course the clock in the Nutcracker; what other stories have owls - and then the hero being marked...I can only think of the horse Flicker. Some heros have special abilities but marked? What was that story about a prince with a hidden birthmark found when he was an adult. He was raised a peasant for his safty I think and when the birth mark was discovered he takes his rightful place as future king.

Sunknow hehe is that 'Sunk now' or 'Sun know' So glad your peeking in and please give us some feedback. If you prefer not reading the books there are some great links above that will give you the flavor of what is going on. Glad you see the fun in all of this.

DukeNukem Thanks for posting your thoughts. Sounds like your mom has also read the other Harry Potter books to you. If you could fly on a broom where would you like to go? Do you ever dream in your sleep that you are flying?

If i could fly anywhere I would go to Hawaii and I have never dreamed I was flying. P.S. Tell everyone that Harry doesn't really kill Voldemort, you have to read and see what really happens...

Last night I talked to my 10 year old grandson, Andy, on the telephone. His teacher read Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone to his class. He say the book is "cool" and he especially liked Harry's skill at Quidditch.

Most of what Andy told me was a summary of the plot, so I will postpone telling you more until we are at the points he mentioned. I don't want to ruin anyone's enjoyment by giving too much away. Sue

I have had a real problem "reading" these past few years, so I keep buying books and stashing them for the day to come when I can do it again... (it is a concentration problem)...

What I like about The Harry Potter books, is that you can read a chapter at a sitting, and there is a begining and and ending to the story in that chapter...

That enables me to concentrate better, and come back to the next one when I am ready.

dapph

OH Dapph how wonderful for you that a children's book would help you with the very basic problem you've been experiencing. It is almost as if these books were published just for you to have the help you needed!

Sue I think that is 'the' word I hear over again as the young readers comment on these books...COOL! there is acres between each letter of the word and it is our game I've desided to figure out where their hearts are and what is touchstoning them.

I learned with my own, 'why' cannot be answered by anyone under the age of 17 and even oldsters have problems with 'why'. Or even "what does Cool mean" gets me no where. So I use, 'If you could' and 'what do you think is really...' or 'how would that be' or 'did you ever...' it is so much fun getting to the bottom of what is really important in their hearts.

I really thought one of the grandboys said something profound...he was explaining that he believed you are either born with wizardry inside or you are born a Muggle and it mattered not. As he said, "you are what you are!" Hmmmm I'm still pondering that one.

Hawaii wow DukeNukem! Then would you use your broom as a magical surf board? What do you think Voldemort looks like? I found this explaining Voldemort's name.

Lord Voldemort: Voldemort is derived from the little-known evil wizard named Voldermortist. In another language, Voldermortist means "Lord of Evil" or in the simple form of Voldemort means "Dark Lord".

The legend is that Voldermortist once tried to destroy Merlin before the time of King Arthur, by bewitching good people, and simply bribing those who already were evil. Legend has it that Merlin destroyed Voldermortist by;
using a simple paralyzing charm (or should we say full body bind?);
fed him to the many headed beast of the lake (sounds like our Fluffy), the Lady of the Lake's pet;
freed the bewitched people, and destroyed the evil men.
That was maybe twelve, thirteen years before Arthur (Isn't that about how long it was from Voldemort's destruction until Harry started Hogwarts?).

New flash: Ms. Rowling says she made the name up!

Gosh, people, you have to say - "you know who", can't name names!

I just came back from a piano concert, which actually was a recital, only the kids were so good, that some of them are competing in state competitions and some play in the symphony. My grand daughter was playing, and I was really surprised how accomplished those kids were. They ranged from 6-16 and they were discussing composers and which ones they liked best. But when it was over. they were talking about Harry Potter.

since I was a preteen. We had an adult cousin who was an amateur magician. When we were in elementary school, we thought he was wonderful. But when my sisters and I became about 12 or 13, we became very uncomfortable with the lengthy hugs he gave us when coming to our house or leaving it. When we complained to our grandparents, they just shrugged it off. However, we girls never let ourselves get alone with him. We were very uneasy and stuck together for protection. We were also told we were rude when we rebuffed his hugs. Since that time, I have cared very little for magic shows. Now I can see why I didn't care for it for so many years. I am enjoying Harry and his magical adventures. I think Quirrel's quote above about power might be pertinent to my feelings about that long ago time. Sue

I think about He Who Must Not Be Named (Hitler) who did great things - terrible, yes, but great.

Robby

Yes Robby, Hitler came easily to my mind as well, and then I thought of how many tyrannical despots history has witnessed.

Then my mind wondered to the difficulty. If we are a microcom of the universe; is our greatness tinged with good and bad. How do we weld our power that is at war within as well as, affecting others, making our choices centered from an inner Voldermort rather then our Harry attributes of bravery, truthfulness, loyalty, Love. Have we even identifies our own inner Voldermort. Makes me, especially in this season of sharing love, want to really strengthen my arsenal of Harry attributes knowing that my Voldermort is lying there ready to start an inner or outer altercation at any time.

Yes, I do believe children's books plant the seeds that enable us to further our understandings, our feelings and develop our values as we mature. Reading children's books gives us an opportunity to relook, not only at these simple fun loving stories but, allows us to reconstruct our personal geo that brought us to today.

Ouch Sue, glad you had a soul mate in your sister during your claudication. I didn't. So many woman have a Voldermort in their lives that is made more difficult to deal with because the issues are often complicated and we are not seen as adventurous or brave when we are trying to outwit the Voldrmort. You and your sister really understand true loyality and a shared love for one another as well as, experienceing unsung bravery in the face of beloved authority figures. Huh and there is the rub...all authority figure Muggles aren't as easy to catagorize and dislike as Uncle Vernon, Aunt Patunia and Dudley! Hmmm my grandson's philosophy "You are what your are" is becoming more profound by the minute!

My 11-year-old grandson has had Sorcerer's Stone since last Christmas, but never got through it on his own. (He has read at least a dozen Star Wars potboilers in the meantime ... sigh.) He and I have been reading it aloud together in the evenings the last week or so, and having a good time.

The other day we took him, his 7-year-old sister, and their little cousins (ages 2-1/2 and 4 months) to have a group picture taken. My grandson does NOT like to have his picture taken; in fact, one reason we did this was to have some pictures of him to send around to the family, because in his school picture he has his eyes half shut and a sullen expression. This time, he seemed to think he would look dorky if his teeth showed, so he kept giving us this closed-mouth grimace that looked REALLY funny. His mom and the photographer kept saying, "Say Cheese! Say Gorgonzola!" without effect. Finally I said, "Just think about the booger-flavored beans." He cracked up and the photographer got a really good shot.

You just have to understand the 11-year-old sense of humor!

My ten year old grandson tries to be so "cool" all the time. (And Barbara, I really don't know what he means by cool). I think I'll try Katie's booger-beans trick. Maybe that'll crack Andy up, too! Sue

Your questions for us to ponder, Barbara, immediately made me think of Shakespeare's Coriolanus. I remember trying to explain to people that I believed Coriolanus was truly heroic. The key to my defnition of heroic was not that someone acted brave in terms of another's view of right or wrong, but simply had the courage to act on what he/she believes in. So to many Coriolanus was an anti-hero, yet I could see that he held to his beliefs. that I believe is an important message even for children. No we do not want children to grow up amoral, but i would like to believe that we first want children to derive a sense of self and a sense of courage, with that morality will follow. I think you also hit on a good observation as did the author- that Voldemort and Harry are in a way one and the same, they simply made different choices along the journey.

I also like your question for discussion because I think it might get one of those aha moments where people realize that judging another or putting individual values into the collective is not always the best way for mankind to advance. We all have a bit of Voldemort within and we all have a bit of Harry, the great challenge is to balance our shadow side witih the light and look back and say, hmm overall not a bad journey.

YEs, Power. Historical definitions of power had no room for women's power, I like in this book that Hermione is powerful- and her power is accepting the potential of her mind.

Barbara, sounds like your grandson is a Philospher, perhaps he will eventually find Schoenhopper (sp?) who said What you wish to be you are.

SpringCreek Sue Of course you didn't like magic after those hugs that didn't feel right. I'm so glad you and your sister watched over each other. I don't much like magic myself although I don't mind reading about it. Whenever I see a magician on TV (rarely) I try to figure out how the trick is done which causes me to lose track of the next six things that happen. Performing as a magician certainly IS about control I'd say. I know a LOT about controlling people.

Mary

Katie I love it and yet euuueh "booger-flavored beans"

Ok Sue for us ahuh mature people (remember neat and back further 'the cat's meow') well my American Heritage Dictionaryamong various definitions says;

Cool v 7.SlangExcellent, first-rate.n Composure. To calm down; relax 8.Informal. Entire; full: He lost a cool million.

From that I take it our Grands are saying, Harry and you-know-who- hehe - is excellent, first-rate and acts with composure while risking his entire self in this adventure! What do y'all think? Does that about capture what Cool means?

Wow Yili Lin Coriolanus. I wish Joan P. was in this discussion because she is really up on her Shakespeare. I like what you have said about acting bravely not only in terms of another's view of right or wrong, but simply had the courage to act on what he/she believes in. So to many Coriolanus was an anti-hero, yet I could see that he held to his beliefs.

Courage to act independently wow...with drugs and early sex rampant that is a message...the courage to act from a deeper belief in yourself rather then the immediate feel good impluse...Looks like the need to immediatly feel good regardless the harm to ourselves or others may be all our Voldemort.

Twinkle YES, and an adventure story featuring a boy that allows the girl to be powerful, now that is new isn't it. Finally, woman powerful out front and not hiding in the wings or as a featured fantasy like Nancy Drew, who we really knew we could not grow up and be a Nancy Drew. You said it so well Twinkle, accepting the potential of her mind

Mary I never thought of magic as "control" - you're right - I wonder - is that why we see magicians "controlling" beautiful young woman on stage? Is magic in the limelight a commodity of a patriorachel system where as, woman magicians are witches that cook the healing herbs- hmmmm.

My favorite part of Harry Potter is the Quidditch games. I think they are cool because there's flying and sports combined. I think it's cool that Harry isn't afraid to say Voldemort's name.

Slider, If you were Harry could you be couragous and say "You-know-who's" NAME?

I'm so glad you shared what you liked about Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. Would you tell us how old you are please and did you read the book or did someone read it to you?

slider---I think it's really cool how Harry isn't afraid to say Voldemort's name too. I haven't gotten to a Quidditch match yet, so I will have to wait to comment on the game.

Mary

Robby were your ears burning tonight? I was thinking of your comment when Charlie Rose flashed archieved interviews during which he asked, who was the most influential figure during the twentieth century. Amazing how many respected figures said Hitler. Some coupled HItler and Stalin. I think it was Berger who said it best when he explained that Hitler was the prototype for all the others, Hitler used the mass media, as no one had earlier, that has become refined and still in use today, he started a mentality of hate that is alive and well in many parts of Europe today, especially Eastern Europe, changed the face of Europe and North Africa as boundries and nations were altered.

The waves of Hitler's discontent are still with us!

What I thought was most interesting, there seemed to be less consensus as to who were the most influential positive figures of the twentieth century. As quickly as one was suggested the next interviewee would speak about how that person was great BUT...

Martin Luther King Jr. and Ghandi seemed to receive more nods then most others mentioned. Meryl Streip made a compelling case for (now here I can't remember her name, I think Stantton) the woman that started Birth Control. This allowed woman not only some control giving her an opportunity to enter the world of influence, power and politics; this change promoted the shake up of organized religions as well as, traditional patriorachel society, on and on.

Barbara:

I believe you were referring to Margaret Sanger.

Yes, we often confuse good and evil with strong and weak. "Harry Potter" helps us to realize that one can be evil and simultaneously powerful and influential. Do you suppose one can be positive and weak simultaneously? This book causes us to think deeply about such things.

Robby

Barbara:

Let's get the facts right. Margaret Sanger led the fight for birth control.

Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B.Anthony led the fight for women's suffrage.

Stanton had many children and was a good writer. She stayed home and wrote the speeches which Anthony who was unmarried and was free to travel, delivered.

In a repressive time for women, they were a team, working closely together to reap many of the rewards we women enjoy today. However, women did not get the vote till the 1920's, years after their deaths.

I read all the posts here and am considering Harry Potter.

Charlotte

I like how this book doesn't leave you hanging at the end of the chapters. That way you don't have to read the next chapter right away and you can get to sleep!

There are a couple of people you can't be sure about. Like Hermione Granger, Miss Read-All-The-Textbooks, or Ron, who thinks almost everything is funny or strange. I'm not sure if they are crazy or just normal, but I don't think they're bad guys.

I think Mr. Snape is Voldemort in disguise. I'm sure of this because when Harry first saw him, he saw a green light and had pain in his head where his scar is. I'm not afraid to say Voldemort's name!

That's all I have to say.

Parker

P.S. from Grandma: We just finished Chapter 10 of "Sorcerer's Stone."

I have been a Science Fiction and Fantasy reader for many years. Harry is an excellent example of a wonderfully realized world. I have read the first book and put it away for my four year old granddaughter. We will read it somewhat later to her. I am going to get the next two. I delighted in the first and know I will each one. Harry is an interesting character with great bravery and honesty.. Qualities that you hope everyone can have.

I am so delighted to be back at the computer (still up here in NY). I have just completed two of the Harry Potter books, finished by my 33 yr. old daughter and 11 yr. old grandson last week. what an absolute joyful time I had discussing these with them. Like Slider, I loved the way each of the chapters ended and made my notes so that when I return home, without the books for reference, I will be able to discuss the chapters reasonably.

The best part that I liked was the selection of the students under the Sorting Cap and their names as they were chosen. Gryffindor vs. Slytherin. Doesn't Syltherin sound creepy, crawly? LIke a serpent slithering around, sneakily. I shall return.

I'm delighted to see how involved people are in Harry and the discussion. thanks, barbara. i think a very insightful observation about the role of birth control in women's empowerment. i think hermione as a character might manifest that empowerment. happy new year folk.

In my boyhood when I wasn't trying too hard to solve a problem, my father would tell me "put on your thinking cap." He told me this constantly - the decades passed without my ever hearing the term again. Suddenly - 70 years later I find that there really is a Thinking Cap!!

Robby

I am 9 years old and my mother read Harry Potter to me. Harry Potter books are my favorite because he is magical.

Voldemort is a bad great wizard. Harry wasn't killed by Voldemort's powerful attack because his mom loved him so much he wasn't killed.

There is good and evil and there is power in both.

I liked it when they went through the mazes and traps to get the Sorcerer's Stone. The mazes and traps guard the Sorcerer's Stone and Hormione and Ron sacrifice themselves to get the Sorcerer's Stone.

I agree with Slider that it was pretty cool that Harry had the courage to say you-know-who's name.

DukeNukem I agree with you that flying is awsome. I would fly to Japan and check out all the Pok'emon stuff.

Yili Lin the author is a woman!

Parker you're right he may be Voldemort in disguise, I do not know that yet and we are in the second book.

I also thought the symbolism of the hat deciding who went to what "house" was clever. It made me think that people often show a lot about themselves and don't really know it. I thought the hat was the outside world evaluating the individual and making determinations about the person.

and it was as much fun as The Sorceror's Stone. The sorting hat plays an important role in this second book, too.

Alf, I agree with your assessment of Salazar Slytherin's "house". It does sound creepy, crawly and has that obnoxious brat, Draco Malfoy. Who would want to be a Slytherin when they could be a Gryffindor or a Hufflepuff? Slytherin plays an important part in the Chamber of Secrets, too.

I have cut and pasted all the kid's posts and e-mailed them to my son to share with my Grandson when he comes home from California. I think it's interesting that all the posts mention liking Quidditch. Flying on a broomstick sounds exciting and fun, I think. Sue

Yes Robby and Charlotte it was Margaret Sanger that Meryl Streep spoke about as being the most postive influence in the twentieth century.

Robby when I read your post to my grandson here in South Carolina he, with no flap and off the cuff, said, of course you can be weak and positive at the same time, we are all a combination of weak and powerful and we have the choice to be positive or not. Out of the mouths of...

Charlotte hope you do consider Harry Potter You always bring so much to every discussion.

Welcome Parker Jaques! So wonderful that you and your Grandmother have joined us. You are reading further in the book then I have read so far. Hormione and Ron do not seem like bad guys do they, but that Snape fellow hmmmm. Have you and your Grandmother downloaded the Owl mask yet? Don't you think the mask is pretty wonderful? I was so low on color ink I dared not print it out but I did print it out in Black and even in Black it is a good looking mask. My 5 year old grandson is coloring it and then we are going to cut some of the eye area to make a flap and see if he can actually wear the mask that way.

Stephanie Hochuli It won't be long now and your Grand will enjoy the Harry Potter books you are saving for her. Cade the 5 year old enjoyed hearing the stories as much as his older precocious brother. There is something wonderful about fantasy isn't there - the Narnia tales and of course the Hobbet...what fantasy tales are your favorites?

Alf can't wait to read your posts sharing your conversations after your reads and the three generation discussions. This discussion group is not following the usual order of timing based on reading certain agreed upon chapters, so jump right in with what ever, when ever.

Yili Lin I'm so glad you are enjoying the level of discussion about Harry Potter's adventures. You also seem to be pleased that the females in this story are given powers. Wishing you a Happy New Year and a wish for the future to be your chance at expressing your power.

Robby you almost sound like the famous seasonal letter "Yes Virgina..." only you're saying Yes Dad, now I believe, there really is a Thinking Cap. How many years does it take us to believe our parents huh Robby? Hehe

Welcome Giltch! Sounds like you believe a mother's love is pretty powerful...and Hormione and Ron sacrifice themselves so they must be showing their ultimate love for Harry. Wow Giltch, you really tuned into the examples of the power of Love

Japan and Pok'emon stuff...you are onto the hot new interests of the day. Did you ever look on a map or globe and find where Japan is located? Both you and DukeNukem seem to have an interest in visiting Islands.

And do you think that because the book was written by a woman that is why there are powerful woman/girls in the Harry Potter stories? I know I was taken by surprise when the cat turned professor was a woman.

Twinkle I have not yet read about these hats to fully appreciate your comment but I will be thinking of what you are infering when I do get to the "hat" part. Glad to see you are getting more out of this book then just the fun of the other world.

Oh Sue do you think he will post us a line or two after he reads all the posts...amazing how many children flying alone this holiday season. There were more children passangers on the flight from Nashville to Greenville then adults. It was a small plane and we bounced through the sky so that I couldn't leave my seat and visit with them. Several had books with them and they looked to be in an age range from about 9 to about 14. I would have loved to find out if they read the Harry Potter books and what they thought.

Early on, there is a reference to 'Bon Fire Night'- does anyone know if that is a traditional British celebration. Don't they have bon fires for Guy Hawks day? I wonder if that was a symbol we have overlooked that would add to the read.

I forgot so many things I planned on bringing this time, such the rush with so much happening in my business, at any rate I'm kicking myself because I forgot to bring my book on traditional symbolism. I may just scoot over to B&N here in Greenville and see if they have a copy. I feel just devistated - I forgot the Christmas earings, all laid out but forgot to pack, that my grandson gave me and I have worn every year and I left my make-up on the counter as well as, special purchased duck and pheasant sausage links that we were going to have on Christmas morning. Boy do I wish I had a broomstick tonight that I could fly back home, pick up my forgotten items and fly back. Of course it is so cold I think the broom would be on overload if I wore enough to stay warm.

I don't know if there are such things as asphodel or bezoar but there are such things as monkshood and wolfsbane and wormswood and dried nettles and snake fangs and horned slugs. Anyone here who also participates in the group that discusses Alternative Medicine? Does such "magic" actually exist?

Robby

Does such "magic" actually exist? Of course, Robbie... Didn't you just read it in the book, we're reading.

Robby according to Encyclopaedia Potterica linked above:

bezoar - a stone taken from the stomach of a goat which will save one from most poisons

The American Heritage dictionary says,

asphodel n Any of several plants of the Mediterranean region having white or yellow flowers.

Found out that Bonfire was first written down before 1415 in Middle English and spelled Bonnefire: bon, bone + fir, fire.

OK found it...In the UK, 5 Nov is bonfire night when neighborhoods and schools have public bonfires and fireworks to celebrate an unsuccessful attempt to burn down the houses of Parliament in the 1600's.

Please to remember the Fifth of November,
Gunpowder Treason and Plot.
We know no reason why gunpowder treason
Should ever be forgot.

The dog Fluffy which guards the trapdoor at Hogwarts School resembles Cerberus, the three-headed dog which guards the underworld of Greek mythology.

THE TWELVE LABORS (ATHLOI)

The Greek word for the labors is athloi, i.e., contests for a prize, which for Heracles was immortality. The first six of the labors were undertaken in the Peloponnese, and the other six elsewhere. Associated with them are incidental or subsequent exploits, known as parerga, "incidental deeds" (parergon in the singular).

12. Cerberus. The final labor was to go to the Underworld and bring back the three-headed hound of Hades, CERBERUS [ser'ber-us] or KERBEROS. Heracles himself said (in the Odyssey) that this was the hardest labor. He brought Cerberus back to Eurystheus and then returned him to Hades.

Cerberus (SUR-buh-rus)

Hades' guard dog, a relative of both the Chimaera and the Hydra. Cerberus was carried up from Hades by Heracles in one his Labors. This was achieved only after a protracted battle in which the hero was mauled by the hound's fangs and menaced by snakes growing from his back and tail. In contrast, Cerberus abandoned his watchdog task and lay down meekly to the strains of Orpheus's lyre when that minstrel journeyed to the Underworld in search of his dead wife Eurydice. The poison used in Medea's attempt to murder Theseus was made from Cerberus's drool.

Someone who is British is more qualified to speak about this than I but I believe there is (or used to be) a test given to students in England when they were eleven years old to help determine if they were going to continue on an academic track or move over to a vocational track. People would talk about taking "the elevens." Harry Potter had just turned eleven when he became eligible for Hogswart. A coincidence?

Robby

I suspect the bonfires in the Harry Potter stories probably derive more from Celtic pagan tradition than from Guy Fawkes. Bonfires figure prominently in the pagan festivals of Beltane (May Day) and Samhain (Halloween). I have a niece who is a practicing pagan, so I have some good sources of information. She was married this year on Beltane (May 1), which celebrates the marriage of the God and Goddess, and is considered an auspicious time for "handfasting," or mortal marriage.

Katie you tickled my pique about Celtic religions and gods and goddesses.

Since this was in a sensitive site I copied it:

Witches, Wiccans and Pagans celebrate with festivals that reflect the natural cycles of nature sometimes called The Wheel of the Year. Here is a description of some of these celebrations of Life.

The Eight Holidays of Witchcraft The holidays of Witches occur on what we refer to as the Wheel of the Year. This terminology illustrates the innate belief that earth religions hold that time is circular, not linear. Through the holidays of the year we celebrate the cycle of life, death, and rebirth, apparent in nature as well as human life. Consequently, through the celebration of the Wheel of the Year we are linked to the ever changing cycle of life, death, and rebirth. It is through the celebration and connection of these holidays we are allowed to experience and thus understand the eternal process.

The Standard Holidays of the Wheel of the Year are:

WINTER SOLSTICE/YULE: (On or about December 22) Yule is the time of greatest darkness and the longest night of the year. The Winter Solstice had been associated with the birth of a "Divine King" long before the rise of Christianity. Since the Sun is considered to represent the Male Divinity in many Pagan Traditions, this time is celebrated as the "return of the Sun God" where He is reborn of the Goddess.

IMBOLC: (February 2) The earliest whisperings of Springtide are heard now as the Goddess nurtures Her Young Son. As a time of the year associated with beginning growth, Imbolc is an initiatory period for many. Here we plant the "seeds" of our hopes and dreams for the coming summer months.

SPRING EQUINOX/OSTARA: (on or about March 21) The first true day of Springtide. The days and nights are now equal in length as the Young God continues to mature and grow. We begin to see shoots of new growth and swelling buds on the trees. Energy is building as the days become warmer with promise.

BELTAINE: (April 30-May 1) The Land represented by the Goddess is now ripe and fertile and the Young God expresses His Love for Her. This is a time of joyous reveling as the first flowers of Summer are gathered in Their Honor.

SUMMER SOLSTICE/MIDSUMMER: (on or about June 21) The days of the first harvesting of herbs as the Earth now begins to share her bounty. This time of the longest days is celebrated as a fire festival. The season between the planting and the harvest, June is also the "traditional" month for handfastings and weddings.

LUGHNASADH: (August 1) The First Harvest. Plants are 'setting their seed" already for the next year as the cycle of Nature continues. The Sun (Son) still burns brightly, but already the passing of the days begins to herald the coming of Autumn. The young animals are now almost full grown and our plans-planted with high expectations in the spring- are beginning to come to fruition.

AUTUMN EQUINOX/MABON: (on or about September 21) The Second or Continuing Harvest. Now, as at Ostara, the days and nights are equal once again. gardens are in full bloom and heavy with nature's bounty. There is a slight nip in the air already and preparations begin to prepare for the long cold months which are to come.

SAMHAIN: (October 31-Nov 1) The Last Harvest. The Earth nods a sad farewell to the God. We know that He will once again be reborn of the Goddess and the cycle will continue. This is the time of reflection, the time to honor the Ancients who have gone on before us and the time of 'Seeing"(divination). As we contemplate the Wheel of the Year, we come to recognize our own part in the eternal cycle of Life.

And then I found this wonderful site Druidism Guide with graphics and all.

Barbara how was your flight? My mom needs help entering info on me and my brothers. We are about 2/3ds of the way through Prisoner of Azakaban. It's really getting good.

Today on the Diane Rehm show on Public Radio I heard an interview (probably a repeat) of J.K. Rowling, author of Harry Potter. It was intriguing!

Robby

Dukenukem Great flight on the plane but alas, the broom stick just did not work out for me and I really could have used a special return to pick-up all the things I forgot. This was a first for me, to forget to pack things all laid out...now I have been known to forget and leave things after I have visited someone. Oh my, 2/3ds of the way through Prisoner of Azakaban...I'm still reading the Sorcerer's stone.

Did you see the large and bright full moon the last few evenings for the Winter Soltice? Last night's moon seemed especially large.

Robby fill us in a little on the interview would you. You said it was interesting and I wonder what was so interesting about her.

The author told Diane Rehm that she had no idea that the book(s) would be so popular. She was 30 years old when she started writing. She is a single parent with a daughter and had a full-time job. She wrote the story on her off time and wrote it mainly for fun, hoping she might earn about 2,000 Pounds, enough to cover her expenses. Now she is 34, finds herself making trips to promote the book and when she enters the bookstores, she is received by loud cheers by children.

For the longest while her daughter (who I believe is 7 now) had no idea about Harry Potter. All she knew since her earlier days was that her mother was a writer. She was asked, considering the fact that she is a woman, why the hero of the story was a boy rather than a girl. All she knew was that it just turned out that way and much later when the thought came to her, she realized that Harriet just wasn't the same as Harry. She says that she is Hermione in many ways.

Although she has enough money now not to worry financially, she continues the same daily life she always had.

Robby

What interesting information you have volunteered to us! As a single mother, for many years, I understand how therapeutic this must have been for our author; drifting away from reality, into a wonderful world of magic where we are allowed to choose, fight back, defend, and most importantly -- play. Thank you.

Thanks, Barb, for your interest in the generational aspects of this book. It seems that I am onto something here with these discussions with the kids! When questioning my 8 yr, old grandson (who alternated reading chapters with his 32 yr. old mom), an 11 yr. old grandson and my 33 yr. old daughter,as to what their favorite chapter was, I believe I have found out more about them than I had bargained for. I pondered their answers for some time and believe their choices reflect their personalities. I will expound on this at a later date. (When I return to sunny Fla, next week and I can think alone, without interrruption.)

Did anyone else see Snape as the old cartoon character, Snidely Whiplash? Remember him? He tied penelope Pittstop to the railroad tracks? I think she was rescued by Dudley DoRight. THAT is the way I see Snape; pointed, beaky nose, bleak, sinister- snide.

The children on this site are doing a wonderful job of expressing their likes and dislikes. We all are so blessed to be able to cross the generations- barrier in this manner. Remember when we used to take turns reading aloud as children with our folks?

Robby Great! Thanks for giving us the synopsis of J.K. Rowling rise to fame AND HER DAUGHTER, sounds like she was early put in the position of thinking through her place as a woman.

ALF Wow! Sounds like you really had an opportunity to get inside the skins of your children and grands. What a wonderful Christmas present for y'all.

I don't remeber the cartoon but I have seen Snidely in many a meladrama in these small towns that have resurrected an old theater and are producing old vaudville stories. The books seem to be filled with exaggerated personalitiies aren't they.

And yes, I couldn't agree with you more, the young readers are adding so much to this discussion as we learn not only how they share their enjoyment of a story by what they say and of course, what they are enjoying about the Harry Potter stories. What to me is missing in this magical but printed word called 'Internet' is, hearing these youngsters with their dramatic or deep tones as they share certain sentences.

Hehe guess what was my Christmas present from my daughter...all three Harry Potter books in hardback! What a hoot, how much fun! I will have a great January winter reading them all. It is like learning the teenage language most of us had to learn to understand our older teen grands and now we will be on the 'in' by being able to use Harry Potter expressions when talking with the younger set.

My only wish is that it would be cold as it was in Kentucky when I read so much to my children during January and February. We usually have only Northers that last 2 to 4 days and then it is back up into the high 60s or low 70s. Not exactly hibernating with books and soup kind of weather.

Any weather is hibernating weather when it comes to enjoying a great book. My family all laugh at me because I'm still a soup maker, even in the 80-90 degree heat at home. I can't wait to get back and get warm. Wish I could take everyone with me and as we all know that is the greatest drawback to living so far away from our kids and grand kids.

How true, how true!!! Just to listen to and witness the exagerated expressions of these kids when they relate their likes and dislikes re. the chapters and the characters.

Did anyone know that Robby has been sending his owl to Ginny?

And it seems to drive her nuts!

Robby

One thing I like about "Harry Potter" is the mixture of magic and real life. For example: there are times in the story when an author could have the character just wave a wand and whatever he wanted came true. But that doesn't happen. The characters keep coming up against obstacles of one sort or another and are stumped at times.

Remember when as children we were asked what we wanted if we had three wishes and someone always said "I would wish that I could have as many wishes as I wanted." That took all the joy out of the three wishes and such an approach would have killed this book. Instead, we are constantly wondering how the next obstacles would be overcome.

Robby

Well Robby here is our answer:

gec - 02:59pm Dec 27, 1999 PST (#447 of 448) UK time zone +5 EST
11+
Post war until the mid 70's at least,children in their last year of primary school (5-11 years of age) took the 11 plus exam, to decide what sort of 'secondary' school they would attend. This was written tests mainly of the "IQ test" type to decide whether you would be offered a place in "Grammar", or "Technical" schools. Between them these selective schools took about 25% of children the rest went to "Secondry Modern" schools , whose pupils varied from the 'just failed selection' to the unteachable. Until the mid 60's compulsory education was upto the age of 15 but the more academic children would stay on until 16 to take their 'O' level GCE's (General Certificate of Education), the less academically able left with nothing or some 'propriety' exam certificate. In the mid 60's the minimum school leaving age was raised to 16 for every one and a certificate for those unable to reach GCE standards was introduced, the CSE (certificate of Secondary Education) but academically brighter pupils carried on taking GCE's. Un the late 70's a new certificate was introduced again this was, and still is, the GCSE (General Certificate of Secondary Education) which has many more bands in it such that all pupils can achieve certificates at one grade or other, though what a G grade in maths is worth is anybody's guess.

Also in the 60's & 70's comprehensive, non selective schools became the vogue, though many areas retained Grammar Schools which remained selective in that you would apply for your child to take their in house exams. In those areas that retained Grammar schools about 15% of the academically brighter children were syphoned off from the comprehensive system. Mick Jagger of the Rolling Stones was a pupil at our local Grammar School.

If you wanted to go on to University you would need good grades at GCE and then do two years of 'A' level GCE's (Advanced Level). These are academically very intense and you only take two to four subjects. These are still current today but my daughter will be in the last group to take them in there present form.

This has all been with reference to "free" state schooling. Private schools (confusingly named public schools) continue to exist but have their own entry rules, they also have scholarships that allow a few gifted but less affluent children to attend.

Barbara:

Thank you. So perhaps with all this in mind, Hogswart decided that this was the key year for Harry to be eligible.

Robby

A group of Owls is called a Parliament

Origins of the Word "Owl"

The word owl originated in early European languages. In old Norse, an Owl was known as "ugla", and in old German, it was "uwila". Both of these words may have been created as sounds that described the unique call of an Owl.

In Old English (about 600 A.D. to about 1000 A.D.), owl was "ule", a world similar to the original Dutch word.

In Middle English (about 1000 A.D. to the 1400s), the word became "owle", later shortened to the form we use today. Various early written records have variations on this spelling, including "uwile", "oule", "owell", "hoole", and "howyell". Other ancient cultures also had words for "owl" that described the Owl's hooting call - In India, Owls were once known as "oo-loo" and in Hebrew, "o-ah".

I found this absolutly wonderful site about owls written by and for young readers. The sound is wonderful with graphics from individuals and classes all over the nation that have posted their findings. This is one of the best sites I have ever found bar none.

Recommended For Students: Grades 1-3

Every participating class researched an owl in their environment. Students wrote reports, poems and stories, drew pictures about owls. Activities involved integrated learning and supports state learning standards. The class URL or e-mail address is posted on the page. Owl Prowl Owl Prowl /pictures, poems and stories about Owls written by students

And here we go with the loveliest photo of a Snowy Owl Snowy Owl

Wasn't that a picture of Harry's owl?

Robby

Robby I love it...you are really into the magic of being a kid again...YES, I even changed the title in the heading link to Harry's Snowy Owl!

Actually this type of fantasy with a parallel world has been used many times.. The Gor series certainly took advantage of it. There is also a two book series about a professor and friend who somehow get transferred to several types of mythology.. The Icelandic one is perhaps the strongest, but all of the different worlds are fun. Philip Jose Farmer did a lot with this sort of thing in the Riverboat stuff. My personal Fantasy favorite is of course Anne McCaffrey. Her worlds are quite complete in themselves and always enchanting. Harry Potter has elements of heroism and makes him a key player in the game as well as a leader in the school. I loved the thinking cap symbolism.

"Lighthouse", an excellent computer game for those interested in such things, features a parallel world.

I love The Sorcerer's Stone. Am more than halfway through and have had to squeeze it in to other required reading. I like especially how Hermione learns to bend the rules just a little to save Harry and Ron. The kids seem very realistic for all the magic.

Mary

Maryal:

I mentioned in an earlier posting how the author stated in a radio interview that she saw herself in Hermione.

Robby

Robby---Thanks for reminding me. I was glad to see a female character moving to the front of the story because when I was a girl, I always paid attention to the girl characters. The boys too, of course. <G>

Mary

to see girls in prominent roles in stories that both boys and girls are reading today? When I was young, the only female role model in literature that I really admired was Jo in Little Women. I didn't care for Nancy Drew. I can't really remember why now. Sue

Sue---It sure is refreshing. Don't tell me you missed the Heidi books and Anne of Green Gables? My daughter especially loved the Anne (with an e) books.

Mary

I did read the Heidi books and I identified with her somewhat--my mother left us, 3 little girls, with my father's mother when I was 6. I felt sort of like an orphan for a while--and of course, Heidi lived with Grandfather most of the time, I think. However she was such a sweet little girl. I don't think I measured up! Sue

Stephanie, Jeryn, Robby, Mary, Sue hehe looks like you were a parliament of owls sharing messages last evening!

Oh yes, I loved Heidi and was in seventh heaven at about age 13 when for Christmas I recieved a copy of Heidi Grows Up. I thought for sure I would be a teacher until my godmother, who taught in a school for the Dear and Dumb, that is what it was called back then, well my godmother took me with her to her school a few times and than I spent a lot of time in the convent helping the nuns after school hours and I soon learned teaching was not at all like Heidi's experience.

Stephanie, I love the expression 'parallel worlds'...I've always thought of it as an interior and exterior life experience. For me the fantasy worlds of most books are always discribing my inner or interior life. The place where courage, loyalty, love, truth eminates.

I'm loving this book and the posts are all helping me recapture that magic and belief in my interior dialogue that I've lost in recent years as life tossed me around for awhile.

If nothing else I could see Harry Potter becoming a children's classic for just the reason, it is the first book that I can think of where the story is about a boy and yet as you've all been remarking girl power is a natural part of the dynamics. How easily, and without aggression or patronization this acceptance of male/female relationship is part of the story.

My head is spinning with the 'naming' concept. A few years ago it was pointed out how few 'things', places etc. are named by woman and there has traditionally been the concept that woman more easily explore an interior life. Hmmm have we been feeling excluded from, or actually fearful, identifying our connection with the world and therefore, it has been easier for woman to feel comfortable with an active interior life that we could control. Is that why romance novels or for that matter most novels apppeal to our imagination and fantasy world. Just musing here...

A candy that tastes like vomit. That's the kind of remark in a story that makes an adult say AA-UU-GG-H but kids love that sort of remark!

Robby

Robby--How true. Kids love to talk about vomit and farts and buggers. And some people never grow out of it. Just last week I accompanied a friend to the doctor and there in the waiting room was a children's picture book called The Book of Farts.

I am almost finished with The Sorcerer's Stone.

I think Naming is one of the most important things that we humans do. And it is always good to have a name for something because it puts that thing in the realm of that which can be discussed. Even in the case of a bad diagnosis, such as melanoma, it is better to have the name than to wonder and worry about what is wrong with you and have no answers and perhaps begin to worry that you are losing your mind.

Mary

The concept of naming reminds me of some aboriginal tribes... They do not want people to know their true names... Claims it gives their enemies power over them to know.. I would guess that naming things is a most powerful magic..

Dumbledore's admonishment to "always use the proper name for things. Fear of a name increases fear of the thing itself" seems particularly wise to me. I am thinking of the time my doctor told me that the lump in my breast was definitely cancer. Before I named it to myself, it was something dreadful to fear. Once I acknowledged the lump as cancer, I was able to look ahead to treatment and recovery. After I named my fear I faced my problem with a positive attitude. I am a three year BC survivor who spoke of the cancer to all who wished to hear and perhaps alleviated someone else's fears.

I have observed declining health in a family member who refused to name her fear. She became more and more withdrawn, losing weight, having nightmares, and facing each day negatively. Her fear was the present and future without her longtime husband. She has not really accepted his death (her fear) to this day, three years later. I often think if she could say to herself that it was his time, perhaps she could live the remainder of her life in a happier, more positive way.

To the students and wizards at Hogwarts, "You-know-who" is terribly frightening. They give him the power to terrify them. If they could be more like Harry and call him Voldemort, perhaps they would realize that although he is a powerful wizard, it is their fear that makes him all powerful. They should heed FDR's famous statement, "All we have to fear is fear itself". (I am probably misquoting, but this is how I remember it. Sue

Sue:

That all makes very good sense!

Robby

If Harry is the hero of the story, think of his description - small and skinny for his age, thin face, knobbly knees, round glasses, scar on his forehead. How's that for the description of a hero!! Who would play him in the movie version?

Robby

Yes, Robby that seems to be the topic of discussion among young readers. From excerpts I've read the British were most anxious the movie NOT be Americanized and now the movie is planned to be made in Britian. I also understand there is a contest submitting children for the part of Harry.

I get the impression that Rawlings was making Harry a character that is so ordinary and self-effacing that everyone could identify with him and see themselves as someone capable of braver, loyalty etc.

Sue What a powerful post! Did page 100 hit you when Harry says:

"I'm not trying to be brave or anything, saying the name," said Harry, "I just never knew you shouldn't. See what I mean? I've got loads to learn...I bet,"

Sounds so much like a song in South Pacific something about, you have to be taught to hate. Now I can see we really are taught to fear. Sometimes I think this is taught by honoring the opposite, than we fear if we no longer have what was honored; like good health and socially acceptable experiences or for that matter security with little risk, a comfortable lifestyle on and on.

I am so glad that the Brits will be making the movie version. I think part of the charm of the book is that Harry is sort of dorkish or geekish. He is a perfect size for the Quidditch team catcher though, sort of like the coxswain on a rowing team. Since all kids think they are deficient in some way and envy their friends their talents, I think that Harry is a perfect representative.

Mary

Uncle Vernon said to Aunt Petunia: "These people's minds work in strange ways. They're not like you and me."

Aside from their ability to perform magic, I was wondering just how different they are from Muggles. They seem to have happiness, sadness, jealousy, hate, pain, etc. etc. And just what have they learned at Hogswart in addition to magic, if anything?

Robby

Barbara's Daughter and Katie were talking about bonfires in previous posts (around #90). I am presently reading Dick Francis's Second Wind. On page 4 and later pages, the hero who is a physicist who is employed as a weather forecaster tells of having the duty on the eve of Guy Fawkes Day and often has to forecast rain, which disappoints all the little boys and the big boys (their fathers) who like to make big bonfires. What a coincidence!

Question; Did you ever have to stand up to a friend?

Yes I have.

Questions; How did it make you feel?

It was stand up or get run over so we stand up, as to how it feels it feels like self preservation. You or me.

I can't remember the details, but in looking back it was a petty problem. It involved my hurt feelings because of something my friend had done. It took me quite a while to screw up my courage and tell her about it, but I did finally. I felt better and we are still friends. Many years after the incident my friend admitted to me that I was right and that it never should have happened. I wish she could have acknowledged that at the start. A third person was involved and this complicated the situation.

Your statement about self preservation hits the nail on the head. Sue

Ginger So glad to see you in this discussion.

Standing up to a friend is a hard one and for me, believing I have a right to my picture of how the friendship should be as well as, believing I have no right to judge someone...that they are doing the best they can. The hardest task for me was standing up to, of all people, my daughter. When I finally found the courage, I learned my view of what I thought was painful treatment was just that, my view. I shared how that incident made me feel and than was quiet so that my daughter could explain her behavior. Well it became a conversation in which she shared her view, so totally different than I imagined and the whole incident was clearified. As a result of the discussion we became so much closer and had a real understanding of each other, where as before the discussion, we were limping along with a steriotypical correct mother daughter relationship.

That was a big one and a first for me. Usually when my feelings are hurt by friends, I rationalize, they were having a bad day or a personal problem and if it was behavior I could not accept in my life I would gradully walk away from the friendship. I'm realizing as I'm writing this, I really do not do a good job of letting people know what my boundries are or what I picture as acceptable behavior. Hmmmm I guess I've been working all this time on a premise that everyone shares a knowledge and belief in certain behavior and if the behavior is not matching the acceptable, then there must be a temporary problem.

Than I think of these young people today that have horrendous choices to make about which friends they will continue to make pals.

Sue you also hit the nail on the head when you owned how much courage it takes to stand up to a friend. I guess the fear of loss is buried in that need for courage.

Hmmm another light bulb went off...no wonder they say it takes courage to be old, we are, sometimes daily, losing some capacity or other. I also wonder if young people, now, having to make so many choices about who they will befriend and who will remain their friends that their feelings of courage are secondary and people, like things, have become all part of this throw-away society. I know when I asked my grandson about this question, he was so non-pulsed about taking care of himself and really believing that his values were best that I backed off thinking him audacious.

Robby I haven't finished the book to have an opinion about what Harry has learned other than magic. My reaction so far is, that he really is an ordinary boy that uses his fantasy to get through ordinary and extra ordinary circumtances. As an orphan of course you 'need' to feel special and going off to school is scary. I think we all go into our imaginations and fantasize as we tackle something scary. Some of us fantasize awfulness and others sweetness and as others, as Harry, an adventure that makes us feel more powerful. I remember as a child having more fantasies about being powerful. This book is reminding me to do more of that because I'm still plagued with facing scary experiences.

One thing that has stuck a chord is how many great one liner quotes are in this book...it reminds me of the numourous one liners that young readers liked to use, especially as quotes of the day at camp, from the Little Prince

I must confess to being struck by the recent post about communication. I find myself withdrawing from friends, who have disappointed me in their behavior and never ever telling them why. I guess I just assume they will know what I would consider totally unacceptable or intrusive.. What a mistake.. I have become estranged over the past few years from a much loved cousin, who I had always thought of as a sister and I discovered to my dismay, that I was just another cousin to her.. This hurt beyond belief and I have just totally withdrawn from any contact.. Easy actually since we live a very great distance apart and do not see one another for years at a time.. Still I always felt the closeness and never knew it was not shared.. Misconceptions.. How they hurt.

Stephanie:

I know some people who do not have any cousins at all.

Robby

like Dudley Dursley. I think I'd rather be on the outs with a good, likable cousin for a while than have a cousin like Dudley. He is not a good example of a Muggle! Sue

I think that Harry learned to make very good friends while he was away at Hogwarts. He spent a lot of time with Ron and he tried to be very nice to the other kids. He did a lot of homework spending a lot of time with Hormoine.

Hormoine had so much to say and went on and on that if it were me I would walk away. She told Harry too much. I have a friend that does that some times. I don't walk away but I want to.

Are you going to have a discussion about the other books? My mother has not read all the books to me yet. Max in my class read the English book not the American book. Max said he was not too happy with the English book because the words were not spelled right, the American way and that made it harder to read.

Giltch----I thought it was interesting that your friend didn't like the British spelling of words. One of the things we learn from reading is things like that! And remember, it was their language way before it was ours.

Which part did Hermione go "on and on" in that annoyed you the most?

Mary

I've finished The Sorceror's Stone and The Chamber of Secrets. Now I'm reading Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban. I can't decide which is my favorite. They are all exciting with lots of adventure.

I like it when Harry talks to Ron and Hermione. One of the ways I learn more about the characters is by listening (reading) to their conversations with others. Sue

Hormione went on and on about what she was studying. Every thing else she shares is very interesting. When she shares about her homework she sounds like a Miss little Know-it-all.

I'm in the middle of the second book and have not gotten my chance of desiding which is my favorite.

Thank you for responding to me so I can understand what your saying. I am not 50 you know and I thought you might think that I was.

You guys are way ahead of us. We are still on Sorcerer's Stone.

Robby

Giltch--- I know what you mean about Hermione. I have some friends who are like her. And she does sometimes act like Little Miss Know-it-all, but she and Harry and Ron seem to pool their talents so that all benefit. Are many of your friends reading the Harry Potter books? What grade are you in?

Mary

I've returned from the cold Northeast and have finished two of these delightful books. My 11 yr. old grandson hasn't yet finished #3; so I have to wait.

Quite an adventurous, lovable, young lad, we find in Harry. An orphan-child whose greatest desire is to "have a place" in life. I wanted to adopt him after the 1st chapter, which is what the author intended, I am sure. "Gray Tuesday, our story starts." Nasty old Muggles, his relations on # 4 Privet Drive. Privet? As in privy, perhaps? A latrine. Appropriatly named. I don't have the books in my possesion, as they are making the rounds still in NY State,& I have taken very few notes to refer to. However--- I appreciated how the author ended each chapter ; urging us on, accompanying Harry on to his next adventure; becoming more acquainted!! 1st- "To Harry Potter-- the Boy who lived." We moved on to (2nd) "nobody liked to disagree with Dudleys gang." I loved that sentence-- it was frightening, leaving me hanging there, worrying about Harry being abused by this Motley crew. Are there really such bullies out there, today kids?

My favorite character is the affable Hagrid. A big, giant of a man whose heart is as large as his frame. I loved reading his scolding tirade, berating the Uncle for neglecting to tell Harry about his heritage. "Budge up ye great lump," he tells Dudley. Then, POOF-- he magically hexes Uncle with a pigs tail. How much fun it would have been to accompany him to vault #713. Is that # significant at all or just a # that our author chose?

(8th) "And did Hagrid know something about Snape that he didn't want to tell Harry." 10th- Hagrid looked furious with himself. I loved this guy. The Keeper of the Keys & Grounds at Hogwarts. Whew!! What a handle. "gulping gargoyles."

My 8 year old grandson loved it when the 12 ft. Mountain troll was knocked out. He and the 11 yr. old gleefully related how the mysterious cloak was found on Harrys pillow (15) "Just in Case." They giggled and laughed, considering how much fun it would be to become invisible in their comings and goings. (Oh boy!That's scary, in itself.) We were all in agreement as to the wondrous viewing of Harrys parents, smiling and waving with love on their faces. It surprised me how much the children loved this idea. they thought it was "cool" to be able to see what your heart most desired. My 32 yr. old daughter, when questioned as to her favorite part, described the "enjoyment of platform 9 3/4." The Leaky Cauldron. She relished the idea that only an ELITE group of chosen ones were able to see the area and thus, only those chosen were allowed entrance.

My 33 yr. old daughter, giggled throughout all 3 books and took it personally that Ms. Rowling hasn't yet completed #4, for her reading pleasure. She says she misses Harry. The human chess game won thumbs up for us!! What a wonderland of imagination. I LOVED IT!!! It depicted strength, bravery, loyalty, logic, understanding, and skill. It was coupled with sacrifices, immeasurable love and power.... The most amusing part was the professor who left his body one day and taught as an apparition. What was his name, again? Peeves, peeved me! This airborn menace who lived to wreck havoc and distress. I shall not monopolize further, but I've noticed the more I think of what I liked in this book, the more I remember just how enjoyable it was.

Ya'll sound like you are disgusted with her babblings. It's not easy being the brightest star. For many people, such as she-- their intelligence is ALL that they have. I liked her, let her "shoot from the Lip!"

We all draw on the strenghts and forte' of our friends, n'est pas?

The more we examine the characters in the book, the easier it is to find someone in our lives who has that particular personality. The author does a wonderful job in combining "magic" with the "normal" world.

Has anyone here decided what he/she would like to see in the mirror as "what his heart most desires?"

Robby

All my friends have finished the 3rd book but I am the one who got them started on the first book by getting my mom to come and read it to us in class. They hadn't heard of Harry Potter before she read it. I am in the third grade at a Montessori school. My mom read it us when I was in second grade.

And school starts tomorrow and I will be very busy so this is my last post (maybe).

Start reading the next book and maybe my grandmother will have another discussion!!! So far I think the second book is really good.

I think Hermione seems excessively studious and conscientious because both her parents are Muggles. She has a need to prove herself and her self-esteem is raised by knowledge and her self-education. I can identify with that. I've "been there, done that". I think she and Harry are special pals because he can identify with her since he had one Muggle parent, even though his Muggle Mom was an exceptional wizard. J. K. Rowling uses Hermione, I think, to explain points that might be confusing to us Muggles. I'm sorry Giltch thinks she goes on too much about her homework. She really is a big help to Harry and Ron when they need information that they haven't had access to. Sue

Oh dear my dear grandson--what a joy to watch him think and type exactly how he wants his post to look and what he wants to say. (hehe I'm not 50 you know) I'm glad he had the opportunity to share what he really thinks but...I think he had a harder time separating the characters in the story with the personalities of kids from his school and those he plays with and was only seeing Hormoine's characteristics as similar to a schoolmate that he likes but at times doesn't like his attitude. (Giltch) is bright and has been taught that he is no more special for being bright then another child who can run quickly. That everyone has something special about himself or herself if you just look. Therefore, to him it is embarrassing to act important. Of course he has no clue that at times he sounds that way just because all this rather mature stuff is coming out of his mouth. He is in a class of only 6 children and they are all off the charts with their national testing scores. OK, OK, I am being a proud Grandma...

I understand these kids figured out something special about the chapter on the mirror. Look again at the chapter title and see if you can figure it out.

Alf sounds like you really had a great Christmas visit and fun talking about Harry Potter. Sounds like you really enjoyed the books. Please, no talk of monopolizing. Your posts are wonderful, engaging and full of excitment. Must agree with you the book is a great escape and yet so much is written 'between the lines.'

Some of the 'in' description reminds me of the old radio series when we used to send away for things like decoding rings. Your synopsis is wonderful. I love your daughter's reactions. Oh and your discription of the boys reaction to "Just in Case." hehe yes, and to see the grands getting the joke. They are wonderful aren't they? I guess you'll be sending owls to each other now that you’re back where the sun shines and the temp feels friendly.

I got the biggest kick out of the description of the various professors. It sounded no different then my own assessment of teacher’s years ago. And yes, Hagrid! I would love to have a Hagrid in my life. My brother in many ways was a Hagrid...huge man, as kind as they come to us, his sisters, my mother while she was still with us and my children, not terribly bright, more often then not he wasn't on the right side of the law but loyal to his friends, although couldn't keep a wife, some of his marriages were made very difficult by the families, and yet he was still loyal a caring to his ex wives.

Robby Oh yes, I agree but I am also seeing the magical world characters like a dream where they have bits and pieces of Harry's reality along with his desire of the way he wished his reality could be. How many times have we dreamed we were absolutely fabulous at some skill and without the hard work of training we could dazzle the powers that be and be chosen as top player of this or that sport or, top of the class or, top musician or, what ever we secretly would like to be tops at.

I need to put a little more thought into my erised mirror wish and than I'll share.

Sue You struck a note with me in that I had buried myself in books and learning, to escape into my head as a child. But for me I wanted to hide and hoped no one noticed me. I was always shocked that other thought I was capable or bright. I've often thought those that must let you know what they know, are trying to impress so that they may might feel more important than they have been given permission to feel.

To me I see Hormoine trying hard not only to play by the rules but wants to influence others to play by the rules. I think that is where kids have a problem. They want a 'secret buddy gang together' feeling and if they are attempting something in face of rules, they want everyone they consider their friend to go along without another child sounding like an authority figure, pointing out that they are breaking rules.

I've learned over the years, the very characteristic that drives us up the wall in another is often the very characteristic within ourselves that we do not like or, we try to hide or, we don't see. (shhh Hormoine and Giltch have a lot in common)

Yes, I noticed the mirror name also---the name is the game in this case. The mirror reflects whatever the looker D E S I R E (s).

Mary

Mary got it, Mary got it, YES! How about erised stra ehur oyt ube cafru oyt on wohsi ...I show not your face but your hearts desire

These quotes are just wonderful:

...to the well-orgainized mind, death is but the next great adventure.
...the Stone was really not such a wonderful thing. As much money and life as you could want!: The two things most human beings would choose above all—the trouble is, humans do have a knack of choosing precisely those things that are worst for them."
not being truly alive, he cannot be killed...he shows just as little mercy to his followers as his enemies.: ...you may only have delayed his return to power, it will merely take someone else who is prepared to fight what seems a losing battle next time...
...only one who wanted to find the Stone—find it, but not use it—would be able to get it, otherwise they'd just see themselves making gold or drinking Elixir of Life.

And then to follow all this philosophy with a vomit-flavored Bertie Bott's Every Flavor Bean and an Ear Wax bean...oh how JK Rowling knows children!

His mother's love rather then the role of Hormoine seems to me to show the power of woman in this story. Harry is three days unconscious, allagorical to the 3 days before Jesus rises and although, both his father and mother die to save him, in this story it is the woman's love that leaves it's own mark rather then the death of a male figure in the name of love. Rowling equalizes the love of both a father figure and a female/mother figure toward the child/future generations.

Rowling not only knows children, she has learned "life" in just the short 34 years she has been on this planet.

Robby

The name game...JK Rowling, I'd love to know if you create these names from your own special imagination! I see many have attempted to translate the meaning of the names, though they all seem to convey the characters' essence without any special effort on the part of the reader...

Nonetheless, there is much meaning embedded within the names - we French will note:

Voldemorte = (vol - theft/flight) - (de of) - morte ) = death/theft) , or death flight, death theft.
Draco Malfoy = (mal - evil/bad - (foy, foi - faith) = Dragon of Bad faith.

Mary, did you develop your new by-line, "Name it - Tame it" after reading Harry Potter?
Plus tard!
Hibou

hibou---No, I got it from Walker Percy, American novelist, died 1990. He believed that naming gives one power and that to have a name for something brings it into the realm of that which can be talked about.

But it turns out that the byline fits with Harry Potter very well! Just my psychic side showing, I guess.

Mary

gryff@warts.com?????

Mary in additon to speaking about naming as giving power was it Walker Percy who brought to our attention the issue that woman had named so little?

hibou Thanks for finding us and welcome to our discussion. Unfortunetly we have no direct connection with J.K.Rowling, we only admire her work and are sharing our thoughts as we read her book. I wonder if JKR has a knowledge of French that guided her in naming these characters...

hibou are you from Canada? Have your read the books in English or French?

Barbara--I don't think that can be attributed to Percy. I've worked on him quite a bit and don't recognize it. Of course women often do the most important naming of all---the naming of a child. Not always true, granted, but in my experience women have kept lists and checked with their husbands to find a mutually liked name.

mary

Thanks Mary. Hadn't ever read anything by Walker Percy and now I am anxious to look him up.

Found this in the Hogwarts History Timeline what a riot. I wonder if Honeydukes was any relation to DukeNukem hahehe?

The Invention of Acid Pops by Alia Merlin

The invention of Acid Pops occurred in 1787, when little-known eccentric Barnabas Longbottom was in his office at a hairpin factory. He was looking for his bag of lollipops, his unicorn horn flavoring and trying to brew some acid at the same time. When he found these things, he had forgotten why he needed them. Assuming they were a part of the potion he was brewing he threw them in. Remembering to late that they weren't, Barnabas only had time to run for cover when the cauldren exploded. While he was poking through the remains of his office, he discovered the lollipops intact. Sucking on one, it burnt right through his tounge. As soon as he recovered, he set about marketing the lollies. They were an instant success and several tounge docters hailed it as "the invention of the millenium!" The first store to market them was Honeydukes.

The Story of Honeydukes by Emilee

Amanda Honeydukes was always imagining new candies. She thought about candy a lot, and spent a lot of time eating Bertie Botts Every Flavor Beans. At home, she experimented in the kitchen and made wonderful creations, like sugar spun quills. She sold them in her Gryffindor dorm before classes and they sold like hot cakes. Soon the name 'Amanda Honeydukes' was known around the school.

Amanda graduated in 1640 and went to Hogsmeade, where she started to build a store. Across it a sign read: HONEYDUKES- COMING SOON She set to work making the delicious candies she had imagined- like Chocoballs, filled with clotted cream and fruit-flavored filling. Honeydukes opened in 1645 and it was soon a favorite shop among all.

Today, Honeydukes still sells Chocoballs and sugar spun quills from the recipes Amanda wrote.

Perhaps I misssed it, but no one commented on the relevant meaning of the word Hibou.

Wow...some of this stuff is based on history!

...Legends of alchemy and the Philosopher's Stone have influenced European history and thought for centuries. Doctors, magicians, rulers and scientists tried to find the secret throughout the Medieval and Middle Ages, and the resultant alchemical research is recognised as an important predecessor of modern chemistry and medicine. Numerous famous people were involved with alchemy. The Dominican teacher of Thomas Aquinas, Saint Albertus Magnus (1193-1280), canonised in 1931, recorded alchemical formulae. The Spaniard, Raymond Lully (1235-1315), noted as a scientist, Christian missionary and the founder of western orientalism, was reputed to have produced gold for Edward I. Geoffrey Chaucer (1340-1400), the Father of the English Language, mentioned alchemy, and his French contemporary, Nicolas Flamel (1330-1417), was believed to have discovered the secret in Spain while on a pilgrimage to Santiago de Compastela. He later became a phenomenally wealthy Parisian property owner and public benefactor. Nicolas Flamel & the Holy Grail and Nicolas Flamel's Testment
Testament of Nicholas Flamel. London: Printed by J. and E. Hodson... and sold only by the Editor. 1806. [In French and English on facing pages.]
This text is probably a late invention but it is nevertheless interesting for that. I cannot locate a manuscript of the 'Testament', though it was mentioned in Borel's bibliography of alchemy. It was probably written in France in the late 18th century, during the revival of interest in Flamel. It protests too much its authenticity, and gives an unlikely story about how it survived from Flamel's time. Perhaps if the editor (or writer) had just not mentioned anything about its origins they might have better persuaded us about its authenticity. In spite of this it is a clear statement of the alchemical process.

1. I Nicholas Flamel, a scrivener of Paris, in the year 1414, in the reign of our gracious Prince Charles the VIth, whom God preserve; and after the death of my faithful partner Perenelle, am seized with a desire and a delight, in remembrance of her, and in your behalf, dear nephew, to write out the whole magistery of the secret of the Powder of Projection, or the Philosophical Tincture, which God hath willed to impart to his very insignificant servant, and which I have found out, as thou also wilt find out in working as I shall declare unto you.

New General catalog of Old Books and Authors gives Nicolas Flamel (m:c1330 - 1418)

Rowling is evidently scholarly in many areas. Most young folks (and we elders who don't have you to keep us up to date) will miss all that.

Robby

As usual, your informative postings put an intellectual spin on this book. Thank you for taking the time to share with us.

I enjoyed the phrases posted, as well as: 142 staircases, some led somewhere different on Friday. I loved the people in the pictures who "visited" each other. Have we mentioned prof. Sprout, who studied herbology ?

Prof Flit(wick) who had golden bubbles blossoming from his wand. Madame Pince the librarian, as in Pinz-nose glasses? what a wonderful take on these names.

Since my heart's desire involves my children, I probably should refrain from looking into the mirror. It's really not cricket to use a device to manipulate other's lives, but oh how I wish my #2 son and his longtime live-in girlfriend would marry and have a child. I don't think I'll be getting that wish.

After thinking about this question for a few days, I reread the chapter on the Mirror Erised. Dumbledore gave Harry some great advice which I would do well to heed: "It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live, remember that".

Now I'd like to say that the discussion is getting over my head a little. J. K. Rowling and some of you other readers are much more scholarly than I. It's hard to keep up, sometimes. Sue

The mirror, as I understand it, only told you what your heart's desire was - did not say you were going to get it. Sometimes we dwell so much on mundane things (I really want eggs for breakfast) that we do not truly know our "heart's" desire.

Robby

I can Not believe that I totally MISSED the importance of this when I first read it. Pondering Robbies question over the past few days I began to really delve into it. What a great question, Robbie- kind of thrown out there, yet urging contemplation of what is important to each of us. After much soul searching, I discovered that I am not unlike our orphan-child. IF-- I could evoke what is my hearts desire, reflected in the Mirror Erised, would be all of those I have loved and have gone before me. Perhaps, they would be waving and smiling at me, like Harrys parents. Or perhaps they would be shaking a finger at me, scolding me for a small infraction against my fellow man. So banal, it seems. Yet-- such a precious apparition. It also caused me to ponder the importance of enjoying things in my life at a slower pace; relishing each moment as we celebrate a new day.

Very thought provoking , Robbie. I try not to indulge tto often, in the yesteryears. Perhaps, though, I need to reflect without the mirror.

I am so thankful that I don't have access to the mirror Erised. I know exactly my heart's desire, and I don't think I could stay in the present if I saw him whom I love.

Mary

Sometimes when my patients get caught up in what is "important" to them, I ask them to imagine what they would like to have written on their tombstone. Would it be "He became the head of the department" or "He earned a million dollars" or "He had a Ph.D?" I see choosing one's own tombstone as similar to expressing one's own heart's desire. I have thought about this for a couple of years and will now share with you what I would like to have truthfully written:--

HE LOVED AND WAS LOVED.

I have not reached the point where this is true. I realize as I look back over my life that I did not properly express my love many times when I should have nor was I the kind of person to be loved - maybe respected or admired - but not loved. I guess this is what I would see if I looked into the Mirror of Erised but as to attaining it, maybe the answer is somewhere else in Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone.

Robby

Looking in the mirror or catching the stone and wishing reminds me of wanting 'wealth' by winning the lottery.

I like the tombstone story as a way to identify what is really important.

Just got back home, most unpack and get caught up, bye for now.

Charlie and I have a game we play... usually during commercials on TV.. And we ask what would you do differently when you were (Put in an age) ... And I think most of the time, we discuss what we might have done better as parents... So it is rather like looking in the Mirror Erised.

what wonderful insight into your own psyche. My favored epitaph would be a quote, quipped from the naughty Dorothy Parker:

EXCUSE MY DUST

I read it over 30 yrs. ago and have found nothing to surpass it yet.

PAT: I could never do that. I learned many yrs ago that I couldn't continue to beat up on myself, wishing I had done things differently as a parent. (A tubal ligation has crossed my mind MANY times, tho.

I'm joking.

It's a fun time for us... for we end up laughing at some of the strange predicaments we got into... Like the time we were at Yellowstone and our new car would only go in reverse.

information about Books 4 through 7 from the new Harry Potter Newsletter.Future of Harry Potter.

BOOK 4

- The book is going to be released in the United States and UK on July 8, 2000. - The title of book four is said to be, Harry Potter and the Doomspell Tournament. - In an online interview with J.K. Rowling (Barnes & Noble), J . K. said that romance with begin in the fourth book - but all with the wrong people! - J.K. also stated that some people may die in book three. Many people are suspecting that George Weasley, Crabbe, or Goyle will die. - The Dursley's start having a tougher life in book four. Some people think Dudley dies, while other people think the Dursley's are becoming poor. - Check back soon for more news!

BOOK 5

- In this book, Harry will be already fifteen years old. - I've also heard that Hermoine will become a prefect and that Professor Lupin will return, but these are rumors at the moment.

BOOK 6

- In this book, Harry will be already sixteen years old. - The theory is that this will be Ron's worst year for some reason?!

BOOK 7

- This will have Harry 17 years old. Harry will be in his final year at Hogwarts . - Hermoine is said to become Head Girl - of course! - I've heard that the last word of the book will be "scar."

The winner of all this is millionaire Rowling but she deserves it. She worked hard for it, never expected it, and says she continues to live an "ordinary" life as a single mother.

Robby

I am very excited about the future publications and hope that the Dursleys somehow find themselves locked in a cupboard.

How many of you would drink the potion? That "elixir of life" to give yourself immortality? Be honest, now !!!

PAT: yellowstone, in reverse????

What a great image that conjures up. We toured Yellowstone in Drive and it took us days. I can't imagine being stuck in reverse... We woiuld still be enjoying the geisers and mud flats.

I am getting a bit confused here (may it is just me). The only Harry Potter I have read is the first (Sorcerer's Stone). Are others commenting here on the second or third books?

ALF - as for the "elixir of life," we are talking about that subject in Seniors View the Future if you care to join us.

Robby

Alf I wonder if the idea of sleeping in a cupboard is similar to Cinderalla and other fairy tale characters...in order to describe the devistation they feel and the loneliness after lossing a close loved one, they feel as if they are living in a darkened cupboard and in that scenerio nothing the Aunt and Uncle could do would make a small boy feel OK. Then of course we are reading all the time how hard it really is for youngsters to grow up together in the same household when they are not brother and sister. Remarriage is usually the basis for the dificulty but, as much as we think orphaned children are swept up and loved by relitives I bet it isn't that easy. Living in a fantasy world would be an excellant way wouldn't it to escape to a world that fits and where you can escape the pain of loss.

With all of that I just wonder how much the Dursley's are supposed to represent the pain of Harry's loss and anger at someone since we know anger is part of loss.

Robby you've got me in a real twist here about personalizing my look in a mirror. The idea of the "elixir of life" for an extended life never caught my imagination although, since my children were so much older having children I do miss the idea that I won't see my greats. I think my porblem is, there are things I would like to accomplish in life and things I would love to experience with my children and grands that take dollars. Therefore, I'm confused now about, "what is good" for me, if seeing myself with the dollars to accomplish these dreams is the 'good' thing. And are these dreams keeping me from enjoying today? This is turning into some heavy duty soul searching which is perfect for the beginning of a year when I usually start to outline what I'm going to try to accomplish during the year.

Pat you just have to fill us in on going in reverse at Yellowstone. That sounds like too good a story.

Whoops time I have a 10: o'clock appointment and it is already 10 to

What particular area of our discussion has confused you?? Sometimes we all have a tendency to apply word association in excess , thusly causing our thoughts to wander, I suppose. Let us know. Pull us back to where we should be.

Barb: I am in total agreement re. personalization in the mirror. See my post #160. Robbies question has made us all a bit more reflective. I believe that is a good thing.

You said that "living in a fantasy world we escape the pain and loss, etc." It always strikes me that THAT is exactly what I do when I over indulge in my reading.

I am currently confused about what my confusion was (how's that for confabulation?) but I'll let you know the next time I am confused - that is, if I am not too confused to do so.

Robby

Not "confabulation"... more like constiburtion.

I do want to live a lot longer and maintain my mentality at least at its present state, but I don't think I'd want to linger indefinitely. It is an intriguing idea, though.

Barbara, your metaphor of the dark cupboard as representing loss and grief seems right on the mark to me. Now you need to come up with one to describe the Dursleys. They seem so greedy and sanctimonious as well as "afraid of what others might think". I thought Rowling had a great idea when she had Harry place a pig's tail on Dudley. hehe. I could just imagine a great, greedy, selfish bully pig! I was sorry the subsequent surgery was successful.

Robby, I have read all 3 books, but I'm trying to confine my comments to the Sorceror's Stone. I may be confused sometimes and bring in something from one of the others. Sorry!

Alf, you make an excellent point about finding an escape in reading. I do it all the time. I did it when a child, also. When my now 40 something niece was a teenager, she was an avid reader, too. She had to bear the burden of being constantly reminded that she "always has her nose in a book, just like Aunt Sue".

Pat and Robby, now I must go search for my dictionary: confabulation and constiburtion? Or do I need to find Pat and Robby's New Guide to Spelling, Slang, and Synonyms? Sue

Hahahahaha "Or do I need to find Pat and Robby's New Guide to Spelling, Slang, and Synonyms?" Sue, I love it!

OK Sue you got me going...took out my copy of An Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Traditional Sumbols by JC Cooper and found some interesting things that put together amount to some deeper illustration of Harry's pain and loss and spiritual place.

Remember Hagrid finally meets Harry where the Dursley's hid themselves and Harry in the cabin on an Island during a storm.

Well here goes;

House A world center; the sheltering aspect of the Great Mother; an enclosing symbol; protection. The decent into darkness before rebirth and regeneration. The house, hut, lodge, tepee of religions is the Cosmic Center.

Storm The creative power, the bringer of fertilizing rain.

Sea/Ocean The primordial waters; chaos; endless motion; it is the source of all life, containing all potentials; The sum of all possibliities, the unfathomable; The sea of life which must be crossed.

Pig/swine is a fertility symbol, hence prosperity, but also gluttony, greed, lust, anger and unbridled passion.

Broom/brushWisdom, insight; brushing away worries and difficulties; purification.

Mirror Truth; self-realization; wisdom; mind; the soul, the 'mirror of the universe'; the reflection of the supernatural and devine intelligence; the clear shining surface of divine truth; supreme intelligence; the reflection is the manifest and temporal world, also man's knowledge of himself; the way of ascent for the soul.

Centaur Man's lower nature, the animal nature combined with his higher nature of human virtue and judgement; the conflict between these opposites, the savage and the benign aspects of nature.

Cauldron Nurishment; abundance; fertiltiy;' the feminine receptive and nourishing principle. The Magic cauldron is fecundity and the feminine power of transfermation; life and death; renewal and rebirth. It can be equated with the Grail.

Wand Power; conductor of supernatural force; It is associated symbolically with the mace, sceptre, trident and crozier; the Celtic magic wand was hazel, the Gaelic 'white wand' of magic power was of yew.

Giant the brute forces of nature; primordial power and forces; the elemental; night; winter. The giant can be beneficent of maleic, a defender or an enemy.

flying/flight Transcendence; the release of the spirit from the limitations of matter; the release of the spirit of the dead; passage from our ontological plane to another. The ability of sages to fly or 'travel the wind' symbolizes spiritual release and omnipresence.

Room The individual, with windows to the outside world and doors of passage to other realms. A totally enclosed room depicts virginity; it is also used in rites of initiation.

Halls/passage The change from one plane to another, from this world to the next of the transcendent world. The symbolism of the ability to transcend time and space, day and night; is impossible for the profane material body so can only be achieved at a spiritual level and in the 'timeless moment', also by means of ways not available to the phusical senses. The phusical is transcended of mind and spirit. Rites of Passage are often based on an initial spearation, followed by transition to a final state of unity.

Island Ambivalent as a place of isolation and loneliness but also a place of safety and refuge from the sea of chaos.

Frankly, Robbie, you are going to ruin the image of your profession. That was remarkably witty, laughable and amusing. How unlike the PhD's I've known. In my thoughts, confusion mostly reigns, so I think nothing of it when someone else "looses it." Hang in there, my friend.

SUE: Hm-m-m- the Dursleys. Robbie could probably take that one much further than the rest of us. What were they? Narrow, cruel, mean-spirited, narcisstic, Muggles. (Muggy- depitcting close,stuffy, sultry) hm-mmm What do you think? Could this be the origin of Rowlings "MUGGLES?" Barb?

Immortality, were it possible, is not for me. Imagine what it would be like to live on and on while those you loved died and then finding new ones to love and having them die. Immortality would be a curse for me. My Dad lived to be 91 and buried folks far younger than he was. (He was a minister, not an axe murderer.) He kept making younger friends, but it was hard on him every time a friend died.

Mary

The MUGGY MUGGLES hmm I think you're on to something there...Muggles. (Muggy- depitcting close,stuffy, sultry) hm-mmm

How about the concept that, those of us that have not crossed the sea of chaos and taken the initiation or 'right of passage' to viewing oursleves in the mirror of our disires; which according to Dubledore "gives us neither knowledge of truth" and; haven't faced our fears nor, with courage and the protection of a love in our very skin, overcome hatred, greed and the ambition of evil as well as, not name our fears, not engage our couage and cool logic to get past the giant game of life, nor make the sacrifice to seek - go on a quest, then you are a MUGGLE.

Who remembers that old expression: "Many a mickle makes a muggle."

Robby

Robby what is a "Mickle"?

Robby---I missed that one. Now you need to explain it to us!

Oh my God - I guess I am aged and older than all the rest of you! An old time expression said: "Many a mickle makes a muckle" meaning a little bit and a little bit at a time ends up making a lot. I just threw in "muggle" to be more apropos but if no one knew the original expression, then I'll just have to go off in a corner and slowly rot away.

Robby

Oh Lordy do not rot away pleeeeease...aside you know Robby different parts of this country had different association with words and rather then your age it may just be where you grew up! For me it was 'every egg makes a nest' or 'watch the pennies, the dollars will take care of themsleves'.

Maybe you've had just a sip of a certain elixer? Your expression sounds a little like "there's many a slip, twixt the cup and the lip". Not in meaning, but in sounds. Sue

Please? Am I the only one who knows this? Is Ginny around? Someone who has a library in which to check?

Robby

Robby, just send Ginny an owl and use your green ink on parchment paper and hopefully she will send us back her owl.

I am beginning to think that no one gives a hoot.

Robby

Sorry - just never herd of a MIKLE

Hoot, hoot, hoot, Robby. That's two hoots for good measure. We all give a real big Hooooooooot for our only mature male reading Harry with us. Love ya! Sue

Relax, Robby! LOL I'm still lurking here and taking pity on you... I've heard that expression but admittedly not for a loooooong time. LOLsomemore!

While I'm here, gotta say, Barbara, this is just a super discussion. One of these days, maybe, I'll get something besides "I like it" out of my grandson! The man of few words when it comes to reading, I'm afraid. For now, I am just the
"Happy Lurker" haahahhhha heh heh

OK - you forced me to go downstairs to my dictionary.

Mickle - British - great, large, much.

Thank you, Jeryn. Many of you youngsters are like, you know, not hep.

Robby

Jeryn so glad you popped in..and so you have heard of a MICKLE Ohhhah What ever does it mean? Then I still remember going around and around with Jim about sack. I sack groceries - he sacks people but I sill do not know what to do with MICKLE.

aha so a my trash today was MICKLE size and although I try, someone has complained my heading is a MICKLE and the cold my friend has is a MICKLE of a cold. Am I ok with all these references?

Hehe and Jeryn's grand doesn't give her a MICKLE of his opinion or information about HP

Barbara:

You're beginning to talk like a Muggle.

Robby

Hahahaaaha OK enough!

Robby---Thanks for explaining. Sort of like it takes a lot of rain drops to fill up the ocean, huh? I love those old time expressions. I also love to mix them: Too many cooks shouldn't throw stones. People who live in glass houses spoil the broth. A stitch in time gathers no moss. Hehehehe. OK, I'll stop.

Mary

We're a bit off the theme but have you ever noticed that these various proverbs contradict each other? Look before you leap and strike the iron while it's hot. Think it through and he who hesitates is lost. Age brings wisdom and there's no fool like an old fool. Etc. Etc.

Robby

Robby---Yes, I have. There's got to be an old adage to support any decision you decide to take. Some of them are even true. A stitch in time can save any number of future stitches. Wish I could convince myself that I like to sew.

Mary

Boy -oh-boy!!! Talk about word association. Alls I said was "Muggle". You go gang!!! You are all so clever and ingenious. I can't tell you how much I enjoy ALL of these posts.

My mothers favorite was "Idle hands are the devils' workshop.

It is a sin to waste a pin..

Help me. Or scroll right through me - but above all, please forgive me for what I am about to do - commit the major SN sin of SPAMMING...and a long spam at that.

It is out of desperation that I will paste this post in Alice in Wonderland, Harry Potter, and Absalom, Absalom! (will stop at "Good" War, although I see strong links between Sutpen, Voldemort and the Holocaust-maker of World War II...)

For days I have been attempting to post for each of these discussions, but they are of a piece in so many ways, that I feel paralyzed, unable to separate the three to write at all.

I will take advantage of your good hearts to spill out my thoughts in these pages, hoping that your objectivity will help me through this.

"It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live."

I watch very closely all children who have been traumatized at a young age, fictional children as well, to see how they "struggle to live", and not dwell on the dreams of "what might have been"...

The child in me tends to hide behind a veneer of normalcy - in a struggle to live, hiding from reality. The children in all three stories, Harry Potter, Charles Etienne Bon and Alice, have been communicating to my inner child in a profound way. This is highly personal, soul-baring...raw and unedited..so please, scroll right through to the next topic is if is more than you care to listen to...I can understand that...and I won't even know if you do that!

...I'll begin with Alice, who was seven at the time her story is told - because up until that age, I had a normal childhood - I think! I don't really remember anything much before seven, when my mother died. My memories before that resemble Harry's - vague fleeting memories of color and sounds, but no faces, or voices....not a single memory of his mother's face!

My mother was reading Alice in Wonderland to me before she died. I do remember that because I continued to read it alone, trying to make some sense out of it. I no longer thought it amusing, though I once did. Now it was simply baffling, and I thought I was missing the obvious meanings that everyone else grasped easily. Now, as I read it with you folks, I understand all the reasons that no child really understands this story. Children just delight in the story...and what strange things children find amusing...violent things! Throwing that awful pig/baby around like a sack of potatoes...these stories remind me of the cartoons we all loved as kids...violent, canon blasts, rifle shots, pummeling...yet never even a band-aid on the victim in the next frame!!! Clearly not real! Just a story...

So, I read of Alice, suddenly transported from some place safe and warm - to a mean place where everyone was angry, in a hurry, totally unconcerned about her physical or emotional needs. Completely lost in Wonderland, in the Dursely's in Surrey, Sutpen's 100...and lost in that strange boarding school...

A child needs a parent ...or a strong parental substitute at least. Alice, Harry, Charles and I were alone. We fell, we flew, we lost touch with reality to some extent...and then created our own idea of reality from our rabbit-holes, cupboards, and attics....why did Judith Sutpen send for Charles Bon's delicate, octoroon son at his mother's death, only to keep him in the spartan attic, totally alone with his grief?

"Clytie or Judith, found hidden beneath his mattress the shard of broken mirror: and who to know what hours of amazed and tearless grief he might have spent before it, examining himself...with quiet and incredulous incomprehension."
"What are you? Who are you?"

And then there's Alice and the Looking Glass wondering, "If I was on the other side of the glass, wouldn't the orange still be in my right hand?"
In a mirror all asymmetrical objects go the other way...Alice is told that "to say what she means is not the same as meaning what she says"....

Does Harry's MIRROR OF ERISED read the same from the other side? If his reality could be reversed, would he still be "aching for the smiling, waving beckoning" desires, his heart's desire??? ...I don't know the answer to that. Is it right here in front of me and I don't see it?

"He stared hungrily at them with a powerful kind of ache inside him, half joy, half terrible sadness...

My heart's desire, to see to remember my mother's face...would I be satisfied, or worse off. Probably still the same powerful ache of loss! Yes?

Would Charles Etienne Bon have been better off knowing of the curse on himself and his family, the reasons why he was hidden away from the world. Was this the reason Judith kept him hidden...out of love for his father and concern for his child, or out of fear? What do you think?

"It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live."

My child struggles with these children, struggles through Wonderland, knowing the loss, the ache will never really go away, but avoiding that mirror at all costs, not dwelling on dreams of what might have been.......

Thanks for listening...just for being there. I do feel better and free to get on with all three discussions now.

Joan----Bravo and congratulations for being brave. If literature does not touch us in profound ways, what is there to separate it from pleasure reading? I would put all three books you refer to in the category of literature though I have serious and deeply personal objections to Alice in Wonderland. (See post on Absalom, Absalom!)

Mary

Joan:

Good to see you here. Barbara is leading a terrific discussion group and, as you have surmised, we are having some serious reactions, not just thinking of "Harry" lightly as a child's book.

I don't know if I ever shared this with you, Joan, or on SN (I believe I did somewhere) but my mother died when I was nine years old. I was an only child and while my father lived for many more years, my mother was the strength in the family. That strength lives in me and makes me what I am today. A couple of years ago I decided to write about my childhood (up to age 21) and ended up with 160 double spaced pages. The first 70 pages were my life up to my mother's death. I remember vividly her face, her mannerisms, and the way life was with her. I also remember the names of each grade teacher and numerous events during that period. My memory is keen.

In the term "dwell on dreams" I believe the key word is dwell. I continue to live a full 24 hours each day but I don't repress my memories and sometimes allow them to encompass me. If I hear the song "Believe Me if All Those Endearing Young Charms" (her favorite song) play, I cry. If I smell roses (there were scads of them at her funeral) I think of her immediately. But if I fight to obtain something I believe in, I also think of her because I am her. She is in me.

I would guess, Joan, that while you find it difficult to "see" her face, that you feel her strongly, sometimes without realizing it and that is good. That is my guess.

Books like "Harry" and "Alice" and many fairy tales are therapeutic. May I suggest that we just let them "have their way with us" without analyzing too much?

Robby

Robbie: What wonderful, simple, healthy advice you have given. Therapeutic, yes! For me, also.. These readings have done more for my repression, denials and contradictions that I have allowed to consume me, than any other remedial action I've tried. What a panacea for many of us. We have been blessed.

My heart goes out to all of you who have loved and lost. Believe, though, each of them is still with you.

JOAN: More parallells, such as this, I found in Morantes', History :A Novel, that we've been discussing. Useppe, a bastard-child, exists in a terrible world, during the Holocast; yet somehow-- spiritually he manages to cope.

Alice- has always frightened me and I refused to even read it to my kids. Once was enough, for me and I don't believe I "got it" the 1st time thru. I was not, however, going to subject myself to it again.

and check out what Mary wrote about Alice. I think you may agree with her.

Robby, thanks for sharing about your Mother. I lost my mother, too, at age 6, but not through death. She left us with our Father's mother. It has taken me a long time to come to terms with this, but I think reading has helped. My mother died when I was 26, but I had never seen or talked with her again. I, too, can remember all my teachers. I know that I used many of them as mother substitutes. I enjoy remembering tidbits of my mother, too. My sisters were younger than I and really don't remember anything. Sue

Dearest Joan, I posted in Alice but now after the other posts feel that others have experienced the pain of loss and maybe something they say will penetrate for all of us.

My childhood was not filled with the actual death of a parant. My loses are mostly filled with expereinces of terror. My father was a criminal and among many terror filled experiences one, in retaliation, my mother was taken from us for a week and when she returned she was something of a zombie. And yes, it is amazing how so often the collective reading for a month dwells an a similar theme.

For me, what I have learned about myself is, I will do anything, including blame myself, hurt myself, stay in depression, not live to my potential and during times of acute stress become that silent terror stricken child hiding in my head as if I was still hiding, pushed under the bed by my grandmother, so that I do not know where I am at times getting lost or, remember who I spoke with, rather then own that I had no control over what happened and I could do nothing to stop what happened and I must just accept the walk through the pain and wail. That feeling - such the victem is devistating and I want to believe I can be more like Harry Potter creating in my fantasy as well as my real life, a hero like action. Alice living a chaotic like dream world is hitting so many of my buttons and when she 'kicks back' I feel better. But trying to make sense of other's behavior is my nemesis especially in light of having trusted a man, the father of my children, to not only love our (have a hard time saying our) children but to share in my desire to provide a better life for them then we experienced. To have learned that he was incesting my daughter all the time she was growing up had plummeted me back into a world of Alice that I have been clawing out ever since with again the same reaction to not wanting to own the pain and realization that there was nothing I could do to help her. (Part of that descease is the secret manipulation) This was my experience as a child and I thought I had chosen someone, because of a similar religious faith as well as education, that was safe and honorable.

You and the mirror are correct. As long as I won't walk through the pain and accept that what is, is, I know I am not living my fullest and keep wanting to fix something that, as hard as it is to accept, cannot be made new again. I cannot turn back the clock and even if I could, I cannot change someone elses experience or another's behavior.

Oh I know all the words but it is really hard to accept the pain and feel right, adventurous, good about living my own full life. There is this guilt that I should have been able to change life's happenings and since I didn't somehow I am not worthy. The belief I must do more than average, that tension and stress are my constent companions. What is particularly hard is, not recongnizing a protective love from someone that is no longer with me that is in my skin as Harry Potter used to complete his initiation with courage and bravery. Yes, my grandmother did what she could and my mother, bless her, lived in terror and went off into knew, knew, knaw, knaw land for the rest of her life as we continued to live with experience after experience so that Harry in the cupboard matches my feeling of isolation but not the safty of a dark quiet place except I created that safty I created in my head.

Joan, I only share to let you know I understand some of your anxiety and maybe we could all pray for each other. I know we cannot fix each other, in fact no one can fix another, and all I can do is share my life's experience and in addition ask for prayers. All this after years of heavy duty therapy as well as, attending 12 step meetings. I guess some of us take a long time to accept life and our experience in life.

Dumbledore says, the mirror does not show knowledge nor truth and death is the next great adventure. I am beginning to think that death is not refering to the body, heart and brain ceasing to function but the death of wanting the past to be different and our experience as well as, the experience of our precious loved ones to be different. No one likes pain and the concept of living with a painful scar feels unacceptable.

Amazing how many among us are carrying a burden of pain. Some of you do it so well. That is the secret I would love to learn. Ha maybe that is what I desire.

HMmmm something just hit aside from above post. The stone will transform any metal into pure gold. Isn't there a fairy tale about a king who loved his daughter so and had the opportunity to wish; his wish was that everything he touched turned to gold, so that when he touched the glorious flowers in his garden, his precious daughter and finally the very food he ate it all turned to gold.

Hmm maybe I am stamping my foot, being angry but showing it as sadness, depression and unworthiness that my daughter didn't have this 'golden' life I wished for her and that was supposed to make up for my childhood that I considered a raw deal, that I belived, and was going to show everyone, it could be different. In order to match my wish she would have had to be a preserved gold statue that I would polish to see that it did not tarnish. As Dumbledore says, ...as much money and life as you could want! The two things most human beings would choose above all - the trouble is, humans do have a knack for choosing precisely those things that are worst for them."

Barbara That king was Midas. Thanks for writing what you did. What happened to your daughter was not your fault as I'm sure you know. A person who manipulates is very very good at deceiving others, and there is no way you could have known unless your daughter said something. I am so sorry that this happened. It makes me very very angry whenever I hear a story like yours because I do not understand adults who molest children and I want to kill them all. I am not a violent person, but this issue really pushes all the buttons I have.

I was married--for 29 years---to an alcoholic and he was very good at fooling me. Every time that he started drinking again, I never knew about it, and every time I found out I felt like a fool for not knowing. But he was good at hiding things, and I was (too?) trusting. Anyway I finally came to understand that he did not drink because of anything I did or did not do and that there was nothing I could do to fix him much as I would have liked to. My children had a hard childhood too because of the drunkenness. My daughter is just now beginning to trust men.

Mary

Oh my God!! What horrible, bone-chilling stories you have all shared with us. It makes me feel so melancholy and I grieve for all of you. I will pray for your peace of mind and your recoveries. It sounds as if you are ahead of the game with your perceptions and awareness of these unforturnate events, in your lives. Don't you think that that is the 1st step to healing? May God bless you & grant you PEACE!!!!

I'm with you Maryal. I understand depression, suicide, even homicide. I can not understand abuse of a child. Allow me to stand with you and against the abusers on this point. DEATH to the 67&&&**(^^&**(! Fondly Andrea

Like Andrea, I pray for you. I think you all have learned to live in spite of, and in harmony with your childhood.

I have met two of you, and can say you were both such interesting, wonderful people. Caring, loving, sharing your fellowship with us in Chicago..

Thanks for sharing your experiences here.

hi back online after a wonderful respite but hey help- where do i find all the posts about harry that should be here since i left back in december, hmm maybe i need to go back to top and hit more or something.

anyway not sure about the thread i bumped into here but thought i'd comment- about the notion of king midas and wanting golden lives for our children i think my thoughts my best be expressed by Kahil Gibran in his recitation On Children it begins, our children are not our own... hmm if i were better on the internet i'd go find it and copy post it. anyway i think that one of the hardest lessons we must learn as humans is that we are ALL separate and distinct human beings who will experience our individual lives through our own perceptions and no other person can create another's reality. i think this lesson is especially hard when we have to apply it to people we love and i think hardest for mother's in particular to apply to their children. i had an experience this holiday that clearly reminded me that one of my children is a distinct human being who is experiencing (and so he must) his life on his terms. the Gibran piece says it with more sensitivity than i am here for some reason when i was in high school i had reprinted it and used to carry it in my wallet, i'd like to think that gesture helped me in later life.

Now to find Harry- oh yeah when are we reading the next potter?

Andrea---Thanks. I'm fine now. The distress is over. I am fortunate that it did not happen in childhood, I know. Harry is a hero to me though because he gets along very well despite having those awful Muggle relatives and that loathsome cousin.

And I do like Ron with his big family of successful brothers. And Hermione who becomes adventuresome herself. Hermione is a Muggle too--or from a Muggle family, isn't she? Just goes to show that there are all kinds of Muggles.

Mary

feel like i have fallen way behind here and will need to e-mail someone on technical advice to manage the posting.

but i wanted to comment again on who i think is barbara's grandson she talks about way back about weak and powerful etc. this young person sure has important insights on the nature of the manifest world, methinks he is making real (and succinct) the historical sutras.

but back to flying, yes i am one who does NOT like to fly in planes but believed i could brave a broomstick- i think because the success of the flight was solely in the hands of harry. though i might like to hitch a ride with duke. i'm also reflecting on a mother's love and its power but i am thinking as we go through life we get opportunities to meet all kinds of love and some love really is protective. i know about love that encourages you to do things when you think you can't, love that lends you a few bucks with no strings, love that sometimes has the courage to suggest you might need to change direction or rethink an action. the challenge here is for people to remain open to the possibility of that love and let it come from wherever it must. i can't wait for the young people to get chances to find those experiences, i bet they have at little league games when they strike out and their best friend is still their best friend or when someone is not a good player but is encouraged to keep trying and then wayyyyooo they hit that ball.

also can't wait for them to look back and see how different people gave them protective love and they did not know it at the time.

also want to comment again on hermione i wonder does she really sound like a "know it all" or does she simply know it all and over the years those young women who are smart are often ridiculed. what i like about this book is the partnership that develops where hermione can use her brain and harry can be good at doing things but it really does not work out until they learn to be a team and herm's smarts and harry's skills are teamed up and everyone wins. hope some of the young people will see that and not just boys looking at smart girls, i know that sometimes girls can be just as unkind to smart girls as the boys can. oh ps "cool" is simply defined as The Fonz

Welcome back Yili Lin Yes, we have had many posts since before Christmas, some for fun and some rather serious. I do believe it was Giltch that brought up his distaste for Hormonie's ways. It is interesting how we have all taken that to be a comment on woman and as you learned from further posts, Giltch is my grandson who was posting with my help; he was refering to her characteristics as similar to one of his friends in his school who is a boy.

I bring it up because it is perfect how we hear something, run it through our own filter that hits our buttons and then react. I'm beginning to see that is the way I read as well. Now in a conversation I can see that further clarification is valuable and a few questions, not challanging but supportive of the concept, getting the spaces filled out like,"who do you know that does that" etc. BUT in reading I just don't know. I guess that is why I find it so valuable to hear other's reactions to books.

It is so true, to hear and believe the sages, like Kahil Gibran, is so much easier then really owning and practicing the wisdom learned with our children.

Mary, Sue, Andrea, Pat and Robby thanks for sharing your stories and your concerns for our experiences. Harry Potter has brought another dimension to love and friendship.

If a Broom is symbolic of insight; brushing away worries and difficulties; purification and flying is symbolic of Transcendence; the release of the spirit from the limitations of matter; The ability of sages to fly or 'travel the wind' symbolizes spiritual release and omnipresence. Then it looks like through cyber-space we have all traveled on our brooms gaining additional insight and as Mary has been saying "naming is taming" so that we have again named our experiences therefore tamed the negative impact on ourselves.

I love this opportunity we have to share and the kindness of everyone in return. Over and over I'm finding these book discussions to be like a mirror that, as the book on symbols says, a mirror is Truth; self-realization; wisdom; mind; the soul, the 'mirror of the universe'; the reflection of the supernatural and devine intelligence; the clear shining surface of divine truth; supreme intelligence; the reflection is the manifest and temporal world, also man's knowledge of himself; the way of ascent for the soul.

The more I read and research this book the more I realize that J.K. Rowling has really put together a masterpiece. Interesting that children instinctivly notice superior story telling.

When you think of it, this is not to far off from the many stories of Authur and the Midieval Knights and Seekers. The difference, this is written so that a child living in the late 20th and early 21st century can identify. Is Harmonie really that much different then Guenevere, who could outwit many and than how about Hagrid as Frier Tuck and of course our Harry the orphan, called on to seek the stone has many characteristics of Arthur. Is Ron our Sir Lanselat that would lay down his life for Arthur?

And then in any story to light up the hero we must have the villains and in Harry's real life the Dursley's along with their Dudley get the plumb role. Selfish, mean-spirited and greedy were mentioned as characteristics. Me thinks in todays world there are many a selfish and greedy person that gets away with it only because they have not coupled it with acting mean-spirited. It's those charmers that are so hard to really see who and what they are.

hmm i want to say that i agree that it is "easier" to accept the teachings of a sage- like Gibran- than practicing what is proposed. Yes belief and practice is a great leap forward. But I want to be sure that I did not communicate in any way that I was suggesting that people SHOULD practice nor was I suggesting that his writing be held as a benchmark for any parent's skills. I just wanted to share that it is a wonderful reading- like some poems are wonderful readings and provide us with insight and sometimes comfort or open our eyes to a new possibility.

This is what I like best about Harry Potter, each character represents an archetypical sage, they open our eyes to new possibilities, show us ways that can be- i think perhaps that's what magic is, the science of the can be.

and yes i did not read into giltch's comments a gender stereotype, just in this book hermione is a "girl", i also hold to the same hope that children will un-nerd the "nerd" and whether girl or boy see that some people are hmm is the term book smart, others are dexterous, others very creative, others athletic. The point i had hoped to make and what i like that the author did was show how these individual gifts need to work together team work often maximizes everyone's potential.

Yes, Barbara you do seem to have the most wonderful grandchildren, and I think the time and attention you seem to take with them is a role model for even Dr. Ruth!

Good Heavens...such accolades...but they, my grandboys are such fun and my delight...with out beating further on this Hormonie issue I was suggesting how easy it is for woman to see the stereotypical and some children have not been taught to think that way. Although, where it comes from amazes me when my 5 year old lables symphonic music as "girls music" - he, that takes and loves his violin lessons!

And yes, I sure do agree that is the beauty of what JKR has accomplished. All the skills of the characters work together and even sacrifice for each other to make it work. Having read the Mars and Venus book and learning how naturally competitive men are and then the wonderful new books on boy development ascribing that healthy boys must explore and live out that competitivness, it is nice to see a story where the competitivness is not a boy against girl issue or that the girls are not minimized to assessories in the story.

Have you seen any new ways for yourself as a result of reading HP? I know I have taken upon myself the concept of riding a broom rather then pulling and climbing as I attend my tasks. It has been such the struggle and I looked at as a struggle to fit in a daily walk. By switching my thinking to, this is something I do well and want to do it more often, to looking forward to walking daily is such a great feeling.

Oh goody, Barbara! That means we'll be seeing you over in the Walking... folder more often! Walking really IS a favor you do for yourself, a treat AND a treatment that makes you feel BETTER, both physically and mentally.

And so does reading a Harry Potter book!

First of all, allow me to relate what a ponderful post that was. Such insight - the broom IS symbolic of insight; your remarks about the release of the spirit, symbolized thru flying. Thank you for your wonderful expressions. Can someone give me the site for the walkers please? I had it yesterday but kon't know how I got it. Thanks. Andrea

wow i like that thought provoker, what new ways for me from reading Harry. Well i have not yet figured out the new way but I am most focused on the scene of the "hat" and of course the mirror. I think i had not been thinking of myself and a new way, i read harry just as a friend's mother was struggling with her passage to her next life. her mom passed just about in synch with the last chapter. i was so caught up in hoping my friend would read the book just to get to the last chapter, to help her see a new way of looking at "death" that i completely got absorbed in that rather than some self reflection.

so tomorrow is a day off (yes i'm working today too, saturday) and i think i'll put the hat on myself and see where i send myself and i wonder if i can entice some people i know to wear the hat as well. in fact i think i'll try to make a "hat" wow there's a purpose for my aborted quilting project I can take the made squares and stuff them and make a magic hat. cool thanks barbara

I like dropping into this section it is so active. I do not want to interrupt if I have missed a lot of posts. I finished reading Harry and I am not sure I want to begin another in the series just yet. Oh no- the book is wonderful- I think I just want to savor this first book I am not ready to know what happens in the next adventure. I wonder if I fear the kids will grow up. So for discussion sake I'd like some other people thoughts but for practical sake can I have a hint- did anyone read the next book- do the kids grow up or become teens or less magical and more mature? Thank you.

I don't want to move into the next book yet either. I haven't fully absorbed this one. I was wondering, for example, why Hogswart was for "Witchcraft AND Wizardry." Is one for males and the others for females? Is there a difference in the techniques and/or results?

Robby

Witchcraft AND Wizardry... I don't think that there was a division of males and females.. Hermoine and Harry were all in the same classes. So they were studying and learning the same things... and there were girls on the Quiddich teams

So why not just Witchcraft or just Wizardry?

Robby

Witchcraft is a whole system made up of witches (female) and warlocks (male). There are also good and bad witches.

Wizards are practitioners of Sorcery which in most cases is barely distinguishable from witchcraft.

Here I am trying to be clear and getting nowhere. Think I'll give it up for the time being.

Maryal

"Warlock" is not the apropiate name for men who are into Witchcraft. Men are called "Witches"

Traditional Witchcraft Facts

The above is a neat site for information about Witchcraft.

I copied the following from there.

1.6) Are male Witches called warlocks?

In an attempt to ostracize those who followed the old religions from the realms of popular society, the Church categorized Witches as warlocks. The word "warlock" translates as the Scottish Gaelic term for a liar, oathbreaker, back-stabber, or someone generally not to be trusted.

Many people use this as a term for a male Witch in contemporary society, but any Witch referred to as such will be greatly insulted by the term. Those who use the term "warlock" should not be trusted for information because they are either ignorant of the term and are most likely not knowledgeable about the Craft anyways, or they are most likely teenagers involved with pseudo-satanism who think that name sounds cool.

If someone betrayed a coven, the members might mark them as a warlock by taking a blade and slashing them across the forehead so that everyone who met the person would recognize them as such and would know not to trust that person. Interestingly enough, this same technique of marking was used by the Church to designate someone who was a Witch and was done to render their magick impotent.

Therefore, does the term "male witch" imply that if the word male is not used, then the witch is automatically a female?

Robby

I went back and corrected that already, sir.........

8>)

And I make the best brew in town!

dapph

dapphne---It's "warlock" in Harry Potter.

Mary

Harry Potter....

Some truth, and some fantasy!

I am enjoying Harry, and his friends, and their adventures..

At Christmas, I bought the whole set for my daughter to read to her children, but I am reading them first!!

dapph

ALF, Click here to get to the Walking discussion, if you're still stymied. Why don't you click the "subscribe" button at bottom of page while you're there then you can go to it just be clicking the "Check Subscription" button at any other discussion. You can do that for any and all discussions you want to visit regularly.

Still enjoying my lurk here, Barbara! I just loved the way JKR described the brooms, as if they were racy and cool little numbers!

The order of the day, last fall, was that the right to purchase the Harry Potter books for my great grand daughter, 6 year old Emily, was to be reserved to me. That taken care of (and whomsoever in my family would Dare disobey!?!), I bought all 3 and proceeded to read them. Mailed off #1 to Emily in time for that 6th birthday on October 17th and read and mailed off the other 2 for her Christmas. Loved them. Really loved them. Author writes without flaws. Printer prints without editing errors. To these old proof-reading eyes, that in itself is a Joy. But the tale(s) are extremely well plotted out and move swiftly. Actually, I believe it is all one tale; a tale of Harry's 7 years at boarding school. My very favorite parts are the Quiddich games. What a great game! Won't That be fun for Hollywood to make! These are Not purely children's books. They are adult books disguised as children's books. Children will read and adore them, then read them to their children in turn and discover whole new perspectives regarding them. Easy Prediction: will still be popular and considered classics when 2100 rolls around.

I agree with MaryPage that these are "adult books disguised as children's books." Almost every page contains wisdom of some sort and I would guess that we still have lots to discuss and learn from Sorcerer's Stone before we move on to the next.

Robby

I'm glad someone took the time to correct the warlock/witches. I too thought that warlock was the word for male witch until I sent a weekend in Salem Massachusetts and not only read up on the craft but was corrected and enlightened by resident witches in town.

I see where the owls are paid four or five knuts for delivering the mail but I never found out just what they did with the money.

Robby

OK the Parliment met again...I love it now that I learned a group of owls are called a Parliment.

Welcome MaryPage All three! Wow! Have you chatted with your grands and great grand about the book? An old proof-reading huh, boy do I wish you were my neighbor. I have the hardest time seeing my errors and of course to make matters worse I'm a terrible speller.

MaryPage there is so much synbolism packed into this first book it is hard to imagine that there is that much wisdom to write 6 more of these stories. You are so right, the explanation of the game reminded me of reading the submarine chase in Red October and I thought that was fascinating. The idea that a seeker stays out of the frey like a scientist or philosopher needing to be out of the tumble of everyday commerse.

Robby I just wonder what the adult version of this book is like or how it is different. There is an adult version available in Britian and I agree there is so much more that we have not yet plumbed the depths of in Sorcerer's Stone have we.

Jeryn Thank you for being ever so kind and including the clickable to the walking page. Hehe the broom discriptions - yes! Are you particular about the kind of car you drive? That was something I couldn't help noticed and it took awhile but it made sense. Back East, or I should say the large cities back east, folks seem to be caught up into what label clothing they wear where as here, it is the type and manufacture of the car you drive and folks have no clue as to clothes designers. Even the Cub Scouts in their annual Pinewood Derby give out awards for the 'coolest' looking car. Hehe what does your broom look like Jeryn? Mine must be a handmade corn broom I think with a subtle silver band holding the straw to the handle and let's see, Yes, a deep violety purple handle with coral colored stars spaced along that when I hop on look like they are sending off a shower of sparkles like a lighted sparkler. Oh dear wait - doesn't the broom choose you?

Dapphne our 'in-house' witch guru. Ok Dapph how does alchemy and spells fit together? Did one come from the other? And Dapph what site on the internet do you like best that gives us the real low down on witchcraft?

Mary and you also seem to be an aficionado of witchcraft of at least an informed amateur. With the discussion on quatum physics that Timeline has encouraged, I'm beginning to beleive we are all really capable of sourcery and the power of the medieval church has replaced our powers with the fear of displeasing God. That old apple of knowledge thing. I had a book sometime back filled with all kinds of spells but I found them too funny rather then this stirring the cauldren type wording, deep toned reverence. I wonder how much prayer and spells have in common? What do you think could prayer and spells be one and the same?

Pat no special treatment for girls or boys in that school as you have pointed out. I get the impression there is the average Joe that sees all the words as interchangable and then those that really know and are trying to educate us to the differences. Did your children ever dress up as a wizard for halloween or try their hand at magic?

Twinkle I'm with you and Robby - there is just so much more to this book then I think any of us ever expected. I think we all expected to have a fun time over the holidays with this light weight but fun book and it has given us a ride instead. Do you have a favorite part or are there some insights that are making you think?

Yili Lin a patchwork magic hat huh....well if nothing else I bet it keeps you inside yourself, changing the world by changing what you can control. Isn't it just madening when you can see what would help someone and desire they see how easily they could be helped but they do not see it for beans?

After rereading that the mirror of Erised gives us neither truth nor knowledge and that what we desire may not be the best for us reminds me of another quote that I've shared in another discussion some time back but it sure fits here.

We surround ourselves with
the reflections of our identities.
All we are about is survival
and gratification.
We are preening inside our
self built mirrored casket.

Hmmmm!

The difference between a stalagmite and a stalactite is that stalagmite has an "m" in it. Lots of wisdom there!

Robby

Robby are you refering to might over tight as the ending of the words would be said although not spelled??

Well, that's what Hagrid said. I bow to his wisdom.

Robby

Well I must go reread and find it mussin I...

Barbara, you asked:

Dapphne our 'in-house' witch guru. Ok Dapph how does alchemy and spells fit together? Did one come from the other? And Dapph what site on the internet do you like best that gives us the real low down on witchcraft?

That is a very good question, Barbara, one of which I can't begin to answere.....

To me, understanding Alchemy is like trying to understand Einsteins Theroy of Relativity..... Way beyond this persons ability to comprehend.

The following website has more information then most would want to know about traditional witchcraft...

Onyx Dimensions

dapph

Oh Dapph what a great site. Everything and then some is there. You could get lost for hours in the site. Thanks ever and I'm putting up top.

Look what I found in the site. (I'd click directly to it but then you would loose the wonders of all the other pages) But this is a little of Harry Potter's exerience with his spirit bringing his mother and father to his aid and the broom flights. Now I know some have a problem with pagan beliefs and yet we know, much of our holiday celebrating is based on the pagan celebrations of a pre-christian church. None of us are trying to debase the sanctity of anyone's belief, only adding some information that was the basic communication and adoration to the 'great power' or 'spirit' that Civilization and the Christian Church has been adapting and changing these old traditions into a new culture of Christ-based religion.

So here goes...

Hedgewitch is a path within a tradition that is somewhat shamanic in nature. There are many different titles that those who follow this inner tradition are called: Hedge-Rider, Hedgewitch, Night Travellers, Myrk-Riders, Gandreidh, Badbh (name of a Goddess as well as a title), and Walkers on the Wind. These are the ones who engage in spirit flight, and journey into the Other World. It is this inner path which utilizes such things as flying salves and potions in order to gain access to the Other World. However, there are certain pre-requisites which must be met before one can learn this particular path.

A Hedgewitch is able to go into the Other World, and call back the souls of those who are about to die. They can, in this capacity, be very powerful healers. They are also able to speak with those who have passed beyond.

The hedge signified the boundary of the village. The fence or hedge represents the boudary which exists between this world and the spiritual realm. Not all cultures had hedges, some had stone wall, or earthen works. This term is adopted as a way to commonly identify these path.

Not all Witches follow this specific path.

In regards to the hedge path, the most important aspect is that of spirit-flight. In the twelfth century, a reference is made to a myrk-rida in the C.E. Law of Vastgotaland: "Woman, I saw you riding on a fence switch with loose hair and belt, in the troll skin, at the time when day and night are equal."

This excerpt refers to a Hedgewitch. She is wearing a troll skin, or mask, as a part of a ritual so that the inhabitants of the Other World will recognize her. The liminality of her position between the two worlds is further enhance by the timing of the ritual which is held on an equinox during which day and night are equal.

The Portugeuse witch, the Bruxsa, ventures out during the night as a large sinister nightbird. In Germany, the nightjar is called the hexe, and is thought of in local folklore as being a shape-shifted witch who has gone out to suck the milk from the goats at night.

Often, these Hedgewitches were seen as riding upon a broom or riding-pole and flying through the air. In Old German, one of the words for a male witch was Gabelreiterinnen and meant pitchfork-rider.

The broomstick, or riding-pole, represented the phallus of the Horned God. The tops of these riding-poles often ended in two forked tines which represented the horns of the Horned God. Later these riding poles developed into the more common wand.

To achieve the sensation of flying, poisonous compounds known as flying ointments were used. These ointments contained strong akaloids such as aconite, belladonna, and hemlock. The result of such ointments produced physiological effects such as mental confusion, impaired mobility, irregular heartbeat, dizziness, and shortness of breath.

The purpose of achieving this spirit-flight ranged from speaking to the ancestors, to healing those who were near death and "calling them back."

It is believed that on the Cross Quarter-Days (commonly known as: Samhain, Imbolc, Beltaine, and Lughnasdah), the ancestral spirits travelled on invisible lines that linked togther burial places, graveyards, and mounds. Each culture had its own name for these lines:

Celtic faery-roads
Dutch death-roads
English church-ways
English coffin-paths
English corpse-roads
German geisterweige
Holland dood wegan
Saxon daeda-waeg

During these times the bounderies between the two worlds are thought to be lessened, and so communication is easier. At Samhuinne, however, the boundaries between the two worlds are believed to be at their thinnest point, making interaction betwen them much easier.

Wow after all this wonderful education, I feel a bit trite wanting to make some light hearted observations.

However, in the arena of sorcery and everyone having that ability- I agree. Recent research in the area of alternative healing identifies a "Cosmic Soup" and there is a suggestion that everyone has the ability to access that energy field. One area where this research has been directed is in understanding savants. IN addition it is theorized that highly creative people and "philosophers" in particular have either intuitively accessed this energy field or are so focused- the the point of not communicating with the wider world- into the energy field. It is theorized that when people are accessing the cosmic soup (or collective consciousness if you will) they often meet up with a "partner" and that often at an energy level your idea is really the advancement of partnership of another person's idea- who you never even met.

I agree as we can all in our own lives think of these super ideas we thought were only ours and look at the history of the world and see how similar ideologies, inventions, etc. manifested in different parts of the world with no concrete evidence of communication of these ideas.

So in my mind sorcery fits into the notion of collective consciousness and energy that is available to all of us. A sorcerer does not perform magic he simply accesses the magic that is already there.

Alchemy on the other hand- from a pure rational scientific perspective- as I understand it deals soley with the material world, taking one element and making observable interventions to change that element into another. Hmm I could liken that to a surgeon is using alchemy wherein a healer is using sorcery.

No about that wand phallus thing......hmm never knew what i was twirling around before this

PS oh love that piece on hedges and boundaries to the spirit world, i'm wonder what that says for those of us who do not have fences, hedges, rocks or other boundaries on their land- are we expanding our horizons reaching out from the mundane to the spiritual or are we the eternally confused walking the tightrope of the visible material world and some other place.

As Harry moves uncomfortably toward Platform nine and three-quarters, he said: "I don't know how to -- " and is told: "All you have to do is walk straight at the barrier...Don't stop and don't be scared...that's very important. Best do it at a bit of a run if you're nervous."

Is that telling us anything about approaching some sort of barrier in life?

Robby

Yili lin Hmmm I wonder if you didn't just give us the scientific explination for the 100th Monkey Theory...I'm thinking that folks like Seth have successfully taped into the Cosmic Soup or energy field. And the concept of walking the tight rope reminds me of how many of us have to really learn and put in place our boundries, that without boundries we become, as the catch word of the day is, co-dependent.

Robby Wow not just a barrrier but I'm thinking the way we could handle perceived fear or dread, which I guess are barriers aren't they. It reminds me of being a child and going off the diving board for the first time or for that matter not being sure of an answer in school and quickly rattling something off hoping, if you talked fast enough it would either turn out to be correct or the incorrect part wouldn't be noticed.

I'm also stuck by this broom thing again. Harry rode it so well and enjoyed riding his broom so that he gets chosen to participate as the seeker in Quidditch. This is like a gift since it is pointed out he is a natural - a gift from his higher power? - and only by using his gift does he build on his talant so that he has the opportunity to experience catching the Snitch. Also, his using his gift and accomplishing something important was not made easy. Dark forces put up a barrier.

This reminds me of what I often forget and get down on myself because things aren't easy, therefore, I must not be any good and that is, there is supposed to be an opposite for every action and when we try to change something about ourselves there is always this difficulty or negative barrier that we either get past or we give up. Seems like Harry had his metal tested playing Quidditch.

...he had half a mind to ask Wood to call time-out - and then he realized that his broom was completely out of his control. He couldn't turn it. He couldn't direct it at all...Harry's broom had given a wild jerk and Harry swung off it. He was now dangling from it, holding on with only one hand...

It is Hormione who goes into action, trying to locate the source of the jinxing and in her mad dash to stop Snape she accidently knocked into the real culpret, Professor Quirrell. With one hand Harry stays with his gift, his talent of riding a broom.

This also reminds me of how often I try to accomplish something and out of left field something happens that brings me more then if I just sat and worried. Also, it took both Harry and Hormoine to achieve the success of Harry catching the Snitch.

The "adult" versions of the Harry Potter books are simply the exact same books with totally different covers, the idea being that adults will not be embarrassed to be seen reading them. I was not so embarrassed, so I bought the children's versions. No comments yet from my grands and great grand. Robby, shame on you! I gather you are not a fully initiated Virginian as yet! Stalagmites rise up from the FLOOR of a cave. The water drips down from the StalagTITES and forms StalagMITES. Both are made up of minerals from the dripping waters and take eons to make. Have you been over to Luray? Yes, approaching the barriers without fear is meant to be absorbed and applied to everything in life. Rather like our Virginia horses and riders not panicking at their fences.

I am not sure I'd run headlong into those barriers, but I do agree with all this action and not just sitting back letting a barrier defeat us. However sometimes a barrier is there not just to block us but to direct us along a different path. I'm thinking of those rats in mazes who often get the pellet by changing direction rather than attempting to crash through or gnaw a barrier.

MaryPage:

Yes, I have been to the Luray Caverns which are only 3/4 hour from my home more than once and know all about the difference between MITES and TITES. But I was quoting that great wise resident of Hogswart - Hagrid. Who would dare to contradict him?

Robby

Who in the world would have ever believed that as we were enjoying Harry Potter stories we would be discussing phallus symbols, the here-after and the barriers to the "spiritual " world? What a diverse group, here.

Barbara and the 100th monkey theory is? One of the down sides to getting book at the library is as the discussion ensues I don't have a copy here to review or underline favorite passages. Barbara can you pick out a couple things from that last chapter to keep us going- I found that whole chapter amazing. Thanks.

Hey where are the young folk- all back to school?

It is just amazing how often we are reading several books with SeniorNet that have some overlapping themes. I am going to simply copy and paste my post from the discussion on Timeline as we plumbed the various interpretations and understanding, if there is one, of Quantum Physics.

As I understand it, it is the '100th monkey' story...you know where there is this monkey on an Island (true story) that started to peel a nut or banana or something was peeled to eat, that monkeys had not, up until then, evolved to that degree of capability. Well the monkey teaches this technique to first one and then another and after 100 monkeys know how to do this new skill automatically, with no communication or travel, monkeys all over the world know and start using this skill.

It is like with a new idea that the saying goes something about 'it's time has come' because unrelated the same idea crops up all over the world at about the same time without the people sharing this idea with one another. It is why so many inventions were hard to pin down as to who invented them because, folks were working on these ideas independently of one another and, prior to transatlantic communictions, yet, they came up with a similar idea but individually conceived in various forms. Like the first steam engine and the first camara etc. There are several that claim first and one of the versions took off where as, the others didn't but, the ideas for their invention seems to happen at the same time in peoples collective brains.

This is all documented and can be proven and the simplest, I know way, of understanding one slant on quantum physics. I'm not a physics major but have heard of this theory for years especially in relationship to reading and hearing philosophy duscussions. I've always heard it refered to though as the 100th monkey.

Well Pokeman may have taken the world by storm through advertizing BUT, HARRY POOTERISM is doing it with class. Just had the magazine Tradition Home delivered with this months cover banner directing readers to Classic Comfort and Style six designers at Home AND the page is headed Objects of Desire with each designer choosing a favorite possession and pictured inside a mirror frame! And, we are a group interested in the Classic I would say?

MaryPage Thanks for clearing us up on this difference that isn't a difference at all and only a cover difference for HP. Hehe a brown covered HP. Just goes to show though that this book is every bit as meaningful as we have desided in the discussion.

Twinkle yes a barrier can be looked at both ways can't it. Reading I didn't get much of an idea what Harry's altrnative plan would be as his broomed was jinxed. This story seems to be straight on with solutions thought of and carried out but reacting to a barrier can provide us with a puzzlelment, do we go for it and use our gifts or talants or, see it as a sign that we should use our thinking and alter the plan...

Robby I still haven't gone back and read that part yet...I will!

Alf Oh my yes, we are an interesting group here with loads of wonderment. Don't you just love it?

Yili Lin 100th monkey above...and yes, this last chapter is filled with pearls or should I say the wisdom of a Sorcerer's Stone. It is hard to choose what thread to explore. I'll try to get a few questions going but please... feel free to ask your own or share what has hit you as ponderable. And I think you are correct, the children are back to school with their homework and sports and music or dance lessons and of course their friends that all seem to be content acknowledging Harry Potter is 'cool'.

I am convinced after reading the whole book that Harry would have had an alternate plan had that broom kept on its intended path. What I like about Harry's characterization is that he would have come up with the plan not relied on someone of greater power (friend or foe) to direct or redirect him. Has anyone else noted that. When you think about with all that wizardry available and protectors who felt a responsibility to Harry through his lineage, Harry developed more or less on his own. Too bad the young one's are back to homework, etc. I would like to know if any of them saw Harry that way too.

why does my computer say no more messages? does that mean there are no new postings or that we have given up on this discussin and should not write any more messages- the option for outline is also not appearing and the little boxes are gone???????

That is the "new look" YiLi... those buttons still work the same as before but now appear at both top and bottom of postings. Our sysops and servers are trying to improve our life! "No more messages" just means that's all for now.

Don't try to come to SN tomorrow morning--they are going to be doing some big move of the whole shebang. [I don't understand it but it's BIG and important]

Thanks for the tip Jeryn. And steering Yili Lin into understanding.

Twinkle Your right and I hadn't noticed but he is quite independent isn't he. I wonder if that is more of his status as a "Seeker"...he circles the perimeter when playing Quidditch, finds the mirror by himself, even goes to the station on his way to school by himself. Wonder if it is symbolic that we all travel the road of seeking our own courage, truth, bravery, our own magic, alone.

Could use a Madam Pomfrey - been down with flu like symtems all day And I had my flu shot!!! A cauldren in my bedroom would have been great to warm me, finally the chills have stopped but haven't been able to hold anything down yet!

Found this yesterday in Dapphne's recommended site. I was so impressed and amazed at how balanced and glorious it sounded. Certainly not what I expected...

What is the ethical standard for Witchcraft?

Witchcraft teaches that you should follow your heart and take responsibility for your actions. There is no good or evil. There is only the intent that one has when commiting an action. For example, a tornado, which causes a lot of destruction, is not good or evil..... It just is.

Emphasis is thus placed on the intent of the action. This concept can be seen within a quote from a magical tradition that says, "The whole of the action is the sum of its consequence." Energy is not constant. In terms of returned energy, this means that the energy can have many things happen to it along the way including: deflection, absorbtion, transformation, etc.

We do not follow a Rede, or any Law except that which is written within our own hearts. We take responsibility for our actions.

If I am reading this correctly it is suggesting that, the intent of an action is not always the consequence since energy is subject to things like deflection, absorbtion, transformation. I think I get it but I'm not sure. Example; If I give something in good faith the consequence could not be a feeling of good faith if the good faith is deflected??? Therefore, I have no control over the outcome of my actions??? If I've got it than it would sure explain the relationship between Snape and Harry's father.

I'm going to bed...I'm not only not thinking clearly but I'm still feeling rotten. Night Y'all.

The defeat of the dark wizard Grindelwald (a German name) was in 1945, the same year that the Nazis were defeated. Why would Rowling have chosen that year?

No one ever shared any thoughts as to what the owls were doing with the money they were paid for carrying messages.

Robby

Robby, I made the assumption that it paid for their keep. My memory of the book now includes all 3, but do you remember the owl store? Or was that not book 1? I heard JKR say that Harry Potter just SPRANG into her mind whole. True, she has had to write like mad and it has taken time. But she KNEW all about him from the first moment. I also heard her state (I believe this was on the Diane Rehm show on Public Radio ) that she has already written the last chapter of Book # 7. She sounded rather annoyed (well, just slightly annoyed and perplexed) that kids do not like and relate to Hermione as much as to the two boys. Well, I relate strongly to Hermione. She is much, much like me, except she proves in book 3 that she has much, much more energy than I have ever been blessed with. And I had a lot once upon my time!

MaryPage:

I have only read Book 1 so I can't react to some of the things you said.

Robby

Hermione might be getting interpreted in the same way as "lucy" in the Peanuts family. Lucy like Hermione serves a particular role in the family and I am surprised the author does not see that. Sorry did not want that to sound arrogant. Hermione expresses a lot of hidden feelings and perceptions about "girls" and women to me and it might be natural for young boys to dislike and men to feel threatened by her. I think the author is making a good statement with Harry and the other boys accepting Hermione at least in book one, but I think the author will eventually appreciate that she is making a social statement.

I can sympathize with Snape on this point. I don't feel that he should hate Harry's Dad for saving him, however, I can see how that could have made him extremely uncomfortable. When we were not married long, the Navy sent us to Brunswick, Maine. The only available rental was a one room "apartment" over a shop on the main street. We had a 15 month old child, a dog, and I was pregnant to boot. We were forced to borrow $1000 from Bob's Dad to make a down payment on a house. We both felt terrible about the debt. I, because I didn't much like his Dad anyway, and he, because he hated owing anyone anything. That first winter in order to pay him back quickly, I went without much needed boots and a heavy coat. We managed to repay him within the year. What a relief! He had not really wanted to lend it to us in the first place, so all felt much better when the debt was repaid. After that we never bought anything unless we had the cash to pay for it. So I guess we learned a valuable lesson. Snape has a lesson coming to him in Book 3, Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban. Sue

I am very confused !! Which Harry Potter book are we talking about?

Robby

I have just begun to read book 1..the Sorcerer's Stone. I am really enjoying the adventure so far. I am at page 95.

Just a thought on the barrier. Harry cannot go back to the people who raised him, he knows that. He is at a rainways station, a cross-roads of sorts. He is advised to take a run at it, by a kindly mother. He seems to trust her advise. He closes his eyes, his cart is out of control and son-of-a-gun he makes it.

Is this not like life. The past is young childhood. He can't go back even if he wanted to. He must prepare to leave childhood and begin to become. He had no idea how to get there but he knows he must try. His future is through the barrier. Once he makes up his mind to go forward he surprises himself, by indeed beginning. He is on his way to a place of knowledge and self-knowledge. The most important thing he has learned already...he is special. Now, he has to learn to believe it.

This is a wonderful book so far, filled with magic, special words, an unhappy childhood, confusion and hope.

Idris:

I agree with you. It is exactly like life.

Robby

People sometimes think stories of magic and make-believe are not real. They are just as real as any story of everyday life, except it is more fun. I just bet a lot of young boys are reading this book and have never read anything this long before. It is difficult to get some young men to read long books.

)

I am talking about The Sorceror's Stone. I found the question about Snape and debt (not financial in his case) in the heading. I only mentioned Snape in connection with The Prisoner of Azkaban because there is a related incident concerning Snape and Harry's Dad in that book. I'm sorry if I did not make that clear. Sue

I'm at page 130 now and Harry sure gave the hat some trouble didn't he. Hmmmmm he had that bad dream which suggested he should be in Slytherrin instead of Gryffindor. Is that because evil alone becomes stronger and feeds on itself? Would Harry's presence there mix powerful good with the evil and there would then be a better chance of defeating it? I shall keep reading and find out.

)

Sue, I, too, was fascinated with the Snape thing. One thing that reassured me tremendously was Dumbledore (? do not have the books here; is That the name of the Headmaster?) The Head seems to have complete confidence in Snape. I think Snape hates Harry because Harry's Dad spared his life. As I read it, he did not "save" his life as a hero would, but "spared" it, as in intervening and allowing him to live. This puts patronization in the picture, insufferable to Proud Snape. Snape feels overwhelming resentment, but I do not believe he will, in the long run, allow permanent harm to Harry. He just wants to make him miserable. What think you?

I am reading this story as a folk/fairytale...is anyone else? My notes are following this theme. I'm wondering how each of us are reading the book. As they say a book reads you..you don't read a book.

In any event, i'm now at page 180 and loving every minute of my read.

)

I am reading Hermoine to represent his inner feelings of rules or laws, order, cautiousness, worry, his internal (female) self. The other side of male personality of chivilry and honour.

When Harry and Hermoine become friends it is the acceptance of this part of his inner self.

I'm at page 214 now.

)

I really like that notion of reading hermione as the feminine side of harry.

back to barbara's control post- yeah! you got it. no one can control and outcome whether it is an energy sent to another person or an energy sent to control a situation or event. this is being recognized in those discussions on scientific research where people are pondering the hypothesis that the act of doing research (including observation) alters the nature of the thing observed. There is an interesting book out there titled Control Theory, I forget the author but it is not a text or tome and i am sure can be found in library or bookstore.

i've been thinking about one of the discussion prompters, "bad things happen to good people"- so after reading a volatile and courageous post by barbara over in history: a novel (i've just begun to read) i thought i would make an assertion here- nope- bad things don't happen to good people. there are no BAD things and to be consistent there are no GOOD people. there are simply things situations and events that occur and they happen along the karmic path of people. perhaps this is a bit of what barbara was discovering in the notion of energy is out there and it gets moulded, deflected and moved about. so a question might be hmm why did i, a person happen to bump into a particular energy. well a couple theories are out there- buddhism speaks to cause and effect and some sects of buddhism take the causes into other lifetimes. i think the theory holds in the discussion of harry potter because we have addressed and seem to accept the notion of magic. magic crosses the time/space continuum that is a characteristic of true magic. perhaps like the previous post when we read harry as a fairy tale we are not threatened by magic (cause/effect, things happen to people-unqualified) but when we think of the notion as an operational philosophy in our own lives we get a little antsy.

I, for one, do not accept magic as being real. I see magic as being what we wish we could do, achieve, receive. Magic as portrayed in our fiction is created from our innermost dreams and fantasies. These things are part of what we human beings are made of. We all dream and wish and fantasize. How lovely that Harry exists in a world where some of these things are real for a portion of the peoples inhabiting that world. We can Fly along with him! I do not see Hermione as part of Harry. She is herself: a perfectionist, totally female, a bit of a priss, but improving over time as she learns to go along with the boys and contribute as a member of the group. I was a lot like Hermione as a child.

Magic, is simply love and imagination. To believe in something and to seek it. To seek the good or evil. To know the difference between the two. The stairs and doors are about this very thing. The seeking of the right path to the door...or knowledge taught in school.

Fantasy tales are usually about becoming...or coming into young adulthood. It comes under the heading, of knowing before you understand.

Just my opinion, i could well be wrong.

Fantasy is just reality dressed in other clothes. I don't see Hermione as part of Harry either. I think she is her own wonderful self. Same with Ron.

Maryal

I'm at page 255. The Detention - They are seeking an injured Unicorn. The blood is everywhere, it is silvery. In folk/fae the unicorn represents chastity/purity/good health/strength...in some tales. In others it represents the sensitivity to the souls of humans. In other words, Redeemer/Christ figure/Healer.

Ronan the centaur says - "Always the innocent are the first victums." He and Bane both say "Mars is bright tonight." Mars represents the goddess of war.

Dragons by the way in folk/fae represent sexual desire, which is usually why the Knights fight and slay the dragon. This may fit in here because Hagrid sends the young dragon off with his Teddy Bear.

Boy, this is a good story.

)

What a treat - Everyone's thoughts are so wonderful I'm savouring them.

Welcome Idris O'Neill Your thoughts are like a fresh breeze. Yes, Yes, Love the analagy of Hormoine and Harry and the idea of running into the unkown like leaving childhood behind is brillant.

Sue I realized how much I have share your feelings about someone doing a favor that is a biggy like borrowing money. I think MaryPage your on to what the problem is. Somehow, whether intended or not, those in debt to another see it as patronizing and feel small or subservient or something I can't exactly discribe, beholden maybe does it. I'm beginning to see this now from both sides.

As the borrower or reciever of a favor to accept that it does make another feel good and to continue the relationship without feeling beholden. Part of that of course is that we often sense that the other wants us to either praise of become beholden. Ahh dilemma

And the other side - how to help best - sometimes I think I've helped without really trying to empower the person by sitting down with them and giving them the benefit of my qestioning and thoughts as to alternatives to their neediness. And in the case of money, I did loan to family and did not get it all back nor in the time frame I thought. I have always kicked myself that I did not keep a diary and treat the situation more business like but now I wonder if I would not have been better off co-sponsoring a loan at a credit union or something of that sort which would have kept the situation less personal and really more empowering for them.

MaryPage Hehehe Yes, a real Ludy comment on magic. And Santa Clause is not a real man that lives in the North Pole is he. Mary please, I couldn't pas up the tease but I think what you are saying has to do with another perception of magic. That it is all tricks and people playacting. Twinkle's notion of Hormoine as a Lucy like character is just teriffic. The difference to me is that Hormoine lets Harry kick the football.

YiLi LIn Yes, oh yes - the understanding that energy can be deflected, transposed etc. clears up so much for me. Another insight came this holiday season reading Aesops Fables to my Grands. One of the stories, and how old are these Fables!!, have frogs speaking as they watch two large animals, I think bulls, fighting in a nearby field. The wise frog tells the little ones in so many words that when large bulls fight the looser is kicked out and ambles over to the pond to rehabilitate crushing all the frogs in his path. The moral being that when the powerful fight they crush the innocent. Much like the unicorn speaking about the innocent. I saw that as not only in the obvious large context of war but also, within ourselves when we fight within ourselves about large issues of self control we crush our innocence.

This notion of deflecting pain seems so simple and yet, It's hard not only to deflect current happenings from feeling painful but, deflecting the feelings within of pain based on only the memory of things that happened. In light of so many tales basic to the concept of right and wrong or good and evil it is hard to look with the eyes of it just is. I'm sure that has something to do with childhood promises made that "if you are good and do the right thing nothing bad will happen to you." I think the story of frogs and bulls better prepares us for life, although with the brains and education of the young today they may even get the concept of time/space and deflected energy.

And I really like the comment made by of Idris; Fantasy tales are usually about becoming. I know as old as I get I am always amazed at how much becoming is still part of my life and trying to understand what is and what was. Hmm another thought - in order to better allow others to understand even Jesus uses parables. Therefore, I am seeing parables, fantasy, myths, fables, poems and ballads are our way of knowing in order to understand Wow, after Rawlings - Tolkein and Philemot here I come!

Robby I finally re-read about the stelegmites and I'm not sure I am getting your reference. It was such a simple statement about stelegmites having the "m" as they plumet down past the underground lake and caverns. I looked up sections of both stelegmites and stelectites thinking the stele part would be something like star bright but no, that is Stella - all I get is that the 'tite drips and 'mite collects on the floor building from the drips. What is it you are seeing in this Robby?

Wow Idris - keep them coming, yes! I love it now that you pointed it out that Higrid sends the dragon off with his teddy bear.

maryal_0 I think what is being referred to here is not that Hormoine is anything less then her own person but in most lit. we have the Janus concept symbolically happening between characters and it is usually between the main male and female character although, sometimes it is between two strong characters with opposite personalities of the same sex.

Although it takes all three to pull off the adventures I'm not seeing Ron as the opposite of Harry more the loving supporter with similar characteristics. What do you think?

I am seeing two readings as they find the dead unicorn. I shall continue on the fae/folk path as i do not wish to get into religion here.

Harry, Malfoy and Fang find the dead unicorn. Harrry states he "had never seen anything so beautiful and sad." A slithering creature drinks the dead Unicorn's blood. I see evil incarnate in the one who slithers...ie symbol of evil. The evil attacks Harry and he is hurt terribly by heat or pain in his scar delivered by the slithering one. The scar is on his forehead..seat of knowledge.

Firenza asks Harry why he thinks the Unicorn is killed. To drink the Unicorn's blood (see what i mean about staying out of religion here?) The Unicorn's blood gives a half-life. It sustains this half-life until the elixer is drunk. The strength returns.

It appears Snape, who represents evil forces wants the stone for Voldemort. Now, i wish i had a better memory but as i recall there was a creature called Volvic in ancient myth. He steals the sun from the sky and keeps it in his cauldron at night. Did the author get the first part of the name from this myth? Mort as i take it is death. So, i'm seeing Voldemort as he who steals the light for himself bringing death to others. Hmmmmmmm kinda not feeling comfortable with that one.

)

Anywhooooo, Harry is in bed and his Invisibility cloak is there.."Just in case." I have a feeling Harry has friends in high good places and that his life will be at risk from the powers of darkness or evil..soon.

What position Harry has in all of this, other than to overcome evil...i don't know yet. Have to keep reading and find out.

)

Barbara:

Please don't read anything into my comment about stalagmites and stalactites. Some one here (I forget whom now) was wondering the difference between the two and I just quoted the bottom of Page 74.

Robby

I don't feel that Hermione (or Ron, either) represents a part of Harry. I think that each is a separate and distinct character. The best kind of friends that Harry might have. Each of his friends complements an aspect of his own character. Ron, especially, seems like the kind of friend that you would like your siblings to be. I suspect that by the time we get to Book #7, we will find some romantic competition between Harry and Ron, however, and the friendship might become strained. Sue

Well, i have finished the book and feel very satisfied with it's conclusion. A very good ending.

Hi Sue, you may well be right, it is just how i read the book. People are complicated they need many parts to make up the whole. We are talking about a young fellow who is a Seeker. He is learning about himself. The story would not work too well if his self were not divided into characters to prove their worth. It works as separate characters or as different parts of Harry.

As for the statement "no good and evil, there is only power and those too weak to seek it...This is from a dark spirit, Harry represents light. In my way of thinking there is good and evil and there is only how we use power. We can use it for good or evil. We can also in the Land of Real be rather gray and seek neither good nor evil, just get along or never be called upon to choose in any large way.

Wow, Idris all in what one day or maybe two. Great posts, I enjoyed your thoughts. I liked the thought you started of the dark taking the light, that is giving me some new pictures and a pause to ponder.

Sue your really enjoyed these characters that Rawlings has created didn't you? I still remember characters from books, mostly that I read as a child, and use the characters to not only bring back great memories of their adventures but recognize their charactistics in people I've met along the way. Characters like Ahab, Christan Fletcher, Fritz and Ernest from Swiss Family Robinson, Dick Hawkins of of course Heidi and my all time favorites, Mary Poppins, Hawkeye and his Indian companion was it Noon...something, Oh I forget his name. Does anyone remember?

There are so many ways to read a story. Some of us enjoying the characters or the beauty of a line of writing and some of us like the symbolism created by the suggested allegory to events and characters. Or, using characteristics of the characters behavior, specific objects, or things to represent or symbolize ideas, moods or emotions.

A husband and wife are seperate individuals with distinct characteristics and interests and yet together, they may complement each other by having skills or interests valuable to the unit but not shared by both. Reading that complementry behavior as one unit can then further the symbolism that makes a story more meaningful to some readers. The characters symbolicly become mirror twins, one being enriched by the other's skills or characteristics. This does not take away from either character, they are still their distinct selves. Just another level of meaning that can be observed as we enjoy our literature.

Robby at least by researching I'll never forget which is collecting and which is dripping.

Idris I can find information for Volvic mineral water and caves as well as, tourist attractions in that part of France and various bike shops in France but no myths, although, I have heard the story as you shared.

found Vitriol; a term for water-soluble sulfates of heavy metals e.g. copper, iron, zinc;

In the symbology of alchemy; a symbolic name for the combinations of above and below, as in the Latin "Visita inferiora terrae, rectificando invenies occultum lapidem"- "Seek out the lower reaches of the earth, and when you have completed this task you will discover the hidden stone" i.e. the philosopher's stone: The sentence is ment allegorically, referring to a process through which people are purified, and that which is "down below" is led to ascend into the spiritual realm.
The Greeks have Nyx in a black, star-studded robe as the goddess of night that lives in a cave far off in the west until the time comes for her to emerge from it and crosses the sky on her chariot pulled by black horses.: The Romans called her Nox
The moon is the the black night Nox and with her brother Erebos she conceieved Ether and Hermera/day. When Hemera withdraws into her nocurnal abode, Nox or Nyx begins her voyage across the face of the earth.: In Persia the struggle between lIght and darkness is between Ormudz and Ahriman and in ancient Egyhpt the sun is Akhenaton.
Now this may fit Harry - the Mason is a seeker of light; light bestowed upon the candidate; in a ritual the temple is illuminated and the lights, greater and lesser, are of great importance...the Freemasons revere the East and explain the East as the most sacred point in the temple of mysteries.
I'm not familiar with the Norse myths and have not looked into that possiblity. Come to think of it the story almost sounds Indian doesn't it? It would have to be someplace that saw the Sun as friendly and capable of being captured and put in a basket rather then the Indians of the South where the Sun is a warrior or a vengeful god that needs appeasing.
The widley accepted meaning of Voldemort listed in the above link is:: There is a little known evil wizard named Voldermortist In a certain tongue, Voldermortist means "Lord of Evil" or in the simple form of Voldemort means "Dark Lord". The legend is that Voldermortist once tried to destroy Merlin before the time of King Arthur, by bewitching good people, and simply bribing those who already were evil. Legend has it that Merlin destroyed Voldermortist by using a simple paralyzing charm (full body bind?), and fed him to the many headed beast of the lake, the Lady of the Lake's pet, freed the bewitched people, and destroyed the evil men. That was perhaps twelve, thirteen years before Arthur.

At the time that Dumbledore asked everyone to sing the school song, he asked everyone to pick his own tune which they did and everyone finished the song at different times, the Wesley twins being the last to finish as they were singing to a very slow funeral march.

Interesting !!

Robby

Have a bright and shiny everyone!

)

Barb, i have written a short story for Christmas using Ahriman as the destroyer and whitherer. He was a Persian character. I used him as a Grinch type character who was shrinking the fae.

I have used the characters Dagda, Volvic, Belemus and Belisema also in another story. I cannot remember where i found the characters but i know i didn't make them up myself. They were just a take off point for the story i wanted to tell. Do these names seem familiar Barbara? I should keep better notes on my puter.

)

Robby, i noticed that too. I also liked the idea that everyone sang their own tune.

I also noticed that when the prizes were given out for points at the end it was very reminicent of The Wizard of Oz. Each child won points for the very things that must become integrated into self to grow into a mature adult.

The stone falling into Harry's pocked rather answers the question about power. The stone represents power and it comes to him because he will not use it...he just wanted the stone to keep it from evil forces.

Listen folks i have a wild imagination...i'm probably all wet here.

Wasn't this a great story?

Yes, The stone should go to Harry... Because he didn't intend to use it...

Have a bright and shiny everyone!

) I use the encyclopedia mythica..

Robby, i noticed that too. I also liked the idea that everyone sang their own tune. Have you an idea why the twins sang a slow funeral march. I don't understand that one at all. Is it foreshadowing?

I also noticed that when the prizes were given out for points at the end it was very reminicent of The Wizard of Oz. Each child won points for the very things that must become integrated into self to grow into a mature adult.

The stone falling into Harry's pocked rather answers the question about power. The stone represents power and it comes to him because he will not use it...he just wanted the stone to keep it from evil forces.

Listen folks i have a wild imagination...i'm probably all wet here.

Wasn't this a great story?

Okay, puff, puff, puff Just came back from my Encyclopedia Mythica. I could have sworn (sorry) that i found all of these characters from Irish Celtic mythology. I have found Dagda and Belisema. Belisema and Belems are referred to as the shining ones. This is what i found for Dagda.

The Irish-Celtic god of the earth and treaties, and ruler over life and death. Dagda, or The Dagda, ("the good god") is one of the most prominent gods and the leader of the Tuatha Dé Danann. He is a master of magic, a fearsome warrior and a skilled artisan. Dagda is a son of the goddess Danu, and father of the goddess Brigid and the god Aengus mac Oc. The Morrigan is his wife, with whom he mates on New Years Day

The Dagda is portrayed as possessing both super- human strength and appetite. His attributes are a cauldron with an inexhaustible supply of food, a magical harp with which he summons the seasons, and an enormous club, with one end of which he could kill nine men, but with the other restore them to life. He also possessed two marvellous swine---one always roasting, the other always growing---and ever-laden fruit trees.

One of his epithets is Ollathir, which means "All-father". He is identified with the Welsh Gwydion and the Gallic Sucellos.

Related information Other names Daghda Dagde Dagodevas Cian

Other Printable copy

Nowhere did i find Volvic. Where did i find him? I write folk/fae so i usually stick to celtic...but not always. Okay this is getting way to boring for readers. Can't wait to read you later. Bye!

)

Idris:

I don't think anyone can be "all wet" in receiving interpretations from stories. Each of us is entitled to read into them what we wish.

Robby

Thanks Robby, i think you are right.

) I have also noticed that some books can be read every few years and one finds new things. In otherwords..we grow and see different things in the same work. This has happened to me so many times, that an old book becomes a friend and i wonder what it will tell me about myself at this read.

)

Idris, I do not believe Snape represents evil, nor do I believe he is a follower of Voldemont. He is just blind with humiliation and taking it out on Harry. He does have a Lot of nasty inclinations. But I trust the Headmaster's faith in him. Sue, I do not believe we will see Ron and Harry fighting over Hermione in the 7th book. Granted, this is just a hunch. But I think Harry is finally going to notice Ron's little sister, Ginnie isn't it?, who is so crazy about him. And Hermione is either meant for Ron OR, Hermione or Ron, one will be the one who dies. JKR has already let it out of the bag that a major character will die soon. That was where I noticed she felt miffed about the children's reactions: they all wanted it, (according to JKR) to be Hermione, please, and Not Ron or Harry. Well, obviously it cannot be Harry!

I am betting it will not be one of the three. What was the name of the smaller boy who got into the same house? A sort of scaredy-cat, weakling of a wee chap? He grows with the books. I'm betting on him to be a Big Time Hero along the way; perhaps being the one to lose his life saving others.

Mary Page, having now finished the book, i agree with you Snape is not evil. The fellow i expected the least was overtaken by the evil.

) I love stories that do that!

)

If all of the friends represent a part of Harry that has to be integrated then Neville who represents in my mind his more frightened self will be the one to die. (i really have no idea but it fits my theory)

)

Just a quickie - I've got clients today - this is like when I was a kid and always wanted a book - "and then what happens" - I'm just facinated with the association to myths of the past that authors have stored in their memeory that unconciously play in their stories and where many readers may be bored with research I thrieve and love it. Ah as always we all sing our own tune and end up where we will! To quote a pun on Rawlings.

That is he, Idris! That is the one I think will end up a big hero. But is he not his grandmother's only heir? Or am I thinking of someone else? If Neville is to be the hero who loses his life, I hope the grandmother goes first. Well, whatever is to be is already done. The last chapter of the 7th book has been written. But to share another thing about the books: don't you love the fact that she integrates every myth, fantasy, tradition and all of the vocabulary ever associated with magic? I love the DETAIL she goes into with this. The candies are lovely; but I will stick with (no pun intended) our own 47 flavors of jelly beans, thank you very much!

MaryPage maybe the candies are like life. Everything is a surprise as nothing is what it seems at first glance. We are through the looking glass but it applies to life.

She certainly is very aware of all sorts of myths and traditions as touchstones and mixes them well. One could take off in many directions and feel content.

She is not afraid to deal with great danger and death either. That takes courage in a children's story. It can be done so badly. I certainly wouldn't want to try it.

I have been fascinated as well with the fact that she says Harry sprang full blown into her head. I have only had one small experience like that in my life, but, because I did have it, I know exactly what she is talking about. At one time, I had a political propaganda brochure pop full blown into my head, illustrations and all! I could not WAIT to drop everything and go to my dining room table and write it all down and do an outline of the 4 pages involved. Then I went to an aquaintance who could draw and got the illustrations I wanted. Then I got the approval of the mock up from the Party Treasurer. Went to a printer and got the job done. It was a HUGE success and our County Party was asked permission from other Counties to copy it! Now that is what is known as Inspiration. I have imagined ever since that this is what happens to those endowed with gifts to create art, music and literature. It has never, ever happened to me again; but I can keep wishing! Do you suppose Neville is a wimp because of Neville Chamberlin? But JKR is too young to remember him. Well, she is a University graduate. She probably learned about him in studying WWII.

I have an inspiration to a write a tale and can't wait to put it on paper. Sometimes it happens a few times a week and sometimes my character i use to tell my tales seems rather distant from me and i can't find her to write. This is i suppose inspiration on a very small scale...nothing like what you did so successfully.

If indeed she was thinking of WW11 then it is possible. I have no idea what led her to write this story. It may have been simmering for years and she didn't know it. It was sort of bubbling somewhere in the back of her mind. Maybe she just needed to tell these stories to deal with ghosts.

Did she ever say why she wrote the story with a male hero or seeker? I tend to use females. One way or the other it doesn't really matter, i just wondered.

What an odd use for owls too. Owls are usually, knowledge or wisdom. Owls were often faerygodmothers in disguise too. Anyone know?

Besides being a relatively popular name in England (not here), there's something very wimpy sounding about the name whether it reminds us of Chamberlain or not. It's sounds aristocratic, sharp-chinned and inflexible also. (I think)

Idris, yours is inspiration on a very large scale and it keeps on working for you. You have a great gift. Mine happened when I was 32 (I am 70 now), out of the blue, and has not happened since. I was not, at the time, even Thinking of doing a brochure or Planning to do one or Seeing the need for one. I had not been Asked to do one nor ever contemplated or desired to do one. That is what amazes me. At the time, I was totally immersed in politics and held a lot of posts, which put me in a position to carry out the project once it did pop into my head. It was as though someone put a letter into a letter slot just above my right ear, I swear! I would love to have that Muse come back, albeit in a different form. My political days are way behind me! I am not saying JKR was writing about WWII. Just wondering if the wimpy Neville was named Neville because Chamberlain (I stand corrected on the spelling) Was such a Wimp! Maybe you are correct, Maryal, and the name itself is wimpish and not the connection.

Names are odd in the British Isles...i should know.

)

MaryPage whatever makes inspiration happen, be it something that happens in our dreams, doodling, whateve,r our Author certainly has written something wonderful. I'm sure if it happened to you once, MaryPage it can happen again. It just might take a different form. I wonder sometimes if we really are ready to fulfill our dreams and let inspiration take flight.

JKR, took quill in hand and started to write. What if she had just decided it was a silly idea and hadn't listen to her muse? She had to do something to fulfill the dream. Now we have a wonderful book.

I hope she makes certain children know this about the book...children must know dream or inspiration can be a wonderful thing. All children must know they are special and imagination is their very special gift. I wonder how many children will write a book themselves, after they read this one? Many i hope.

)

I am completely lost. I don't remember anything about a grandmother. On what page was that explained?

Robby

I'm sorry Robby, i was talking about owls. They were given a most unusual job in this book. I was saying that usually in folk/fae Faerygodmothers disguised themselves as owls. This bit does not fit my way of looking at the book.

Do you think the owls were just carrier pigeon type birds? Do they mean something else?

I see the owls as helping, through the means of communication, to keep the group cemented together.

I'm still wondering what they do with the money they are paid.

Robby

Do owls eat knuts...i mean nuts?

)

Neville Longbottom receives an owl with a Remembrall from his Grandmother who also has powers. I haven't found the place yet which tells that she is a witch or wizard, but it's in there somewhere.

I don't think Neville is a wimp, exactly. He's rather clumsy and bumbling and makes mistakes due to this. Draco Malfoy and his hoodlum friends make his life miserable whenever they see the opportunity. Malfoy is a typical bully, preying on the weak. I'd like to grab him up and shake him! No, not really, I'm not a violent person, but I sure would like to give him a Big Timeout! Sue

It was Neville's grandmother I was referring to previously, but I could not remember whether she was in Book One or not. It is well fixed in my head that she is of great importance in Neville's life, however. I do quite like Neville. Yes, and I do despise Malfoy.

Hahahaaaha I laughed so hard a Big Timeout

Now the Indians of the Northwest believe owls represent the inner self or as a Christian would say a soul. This is going way out there - but how about - communications being a transfer from our inner souls (our owl) to another through the written word!!!

That opening, word picturing flocks of owls - pure fantasy...as we learned owls are solitary and are night creatures - but I could see it on screen, almost like a Bat Man movie - Gothic City and a flock of large Owls flying in formation, focused on their journey etc. etc.

My old Dictionary from the 1940 says; Knut same as Canute

Ca nute(-noöt') 994?-1035, Danish King; King also of England from 1017: also spelled Cnut, Knut.

Then looked in my book on Anglo-Saxon England and King Knut is mentioned in the Late Saxon period in relationship to a ivory bone belt fitting in the Jellinge style (interlacing serpants) Scandinavian art with an example of a circlular piece called a Ringericke found in St Paul's CHurchyard near a grave-slab 61 cm wide, dateable to around the time of the death of King Cnut, 1035. This Rigerike (picture shows a small round object about the size of a large coin) was originally richly painted and depicted a dynamic combat scene in which two lions try to pull down a beast. Temdrils are everywhere, and the whole composition is bursting with energy.

Then in my Travlers Guide to Historic Britian says;...It should not be thought that the religious revival of the tenth and eleventh centuries was confined to monasteries. This was a period of extensive church building, encouraged by King Cnut as well as, by the maonarchs of the House of Wessex.

Hehe Robby maybe the owl's fees are financing the church building program in a parrallel dimension.

Oh yes, looked at a book on the Kennedy auction and Mrs. Kennedy had a painting of a Snowy Owl hanging over her bed in the White House that later accompanied her, hanging in her bedroom in her 5th Avenue home.

I have finally finished the book and am now reading all of your posts concerning your various interpretations, research into myths, magic, etc. I'm not sure which I found more interesting, the book or all of your comments. I must admit to feeling rather unimaginative because the story did not evoke in me any of the thoughts and feelings expressed here. I read this book as I read any work of fiction, to follow the story, try to understand the characters and love them or hate them, or relate to them in other ways, based on how the author has presented them. I really dont try to interpret or analyze what the author may be saying, I just accept the story for what it is and enjoy it, or not, according to how it affects me. I don't (can't) interpret what the author had in mind. This may be rather simplistic but I think what the author generally has in mind is to tell a good story, create some interesting characters and stimulate the reader's mind and emotions.

The purpose and content of a book may be to entertain, enlighten, stimulate, educate or affect the reader in other ways. I read Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone as a story about an ordinary boy doing ordinary and familiar things in very unordinary circumstances. I have not had the opportunity to hear or read what Ms. Rawlings had in mind when she wrote the book and we may be attributing to her motives and ideas she had not intended. There were indeed some obvious symbolisms, particularly the mirror of Erised and what it represented, and of course, the stone itself and why it was given to Harry. But it was all there and somehow putting our own "spin" on it tends to diminish the impact of the story.

Having said all that, I want to add that none of it was meant to be critical of the discussion. I have not been involved in any of these SN book discussions before and I may be missing the whole point. Am I?

Hello Gail, this is my first time joining in one of these session too. My children gave me three of these books for Christmas because i enjoy writing folk/fae. We are talking about an excellent writer but even i draw on illusions of the genre, when i write. In a word or image there is a built up history. We are hardly aware of these when we write. JKR would be doing this too, i think. Maybe she isn't though Gail, i have no idea.

I found a site about the illusions in the use of owls in celtic myth last night and did not save it to my hard drive..

( I shall try to find it again today.

Oh to be able to write the way JKR does. <great heavy sigh>

D.H. Lawrence on what the author "intended":

"Never trust the teller; trust the tale."

Once a work of art is finished, it is out there in the world and many people see things in it that surprise the author. Who knows what kind of subconscious wells the author, painter, sculptor draws on when in the act of creation?

Maryal

wow miss a day or two...

so at risk of setting us back a bit i'd like to add a comment to the previous threads on magic and propose that we did not come up with a discussion working definition of magic, my reading of the posts suggests that we interchanged fantasy and magic and wonder if we agree that they are synonymous (I don't- i think they express different ideas or at least different twists on the same idea).

barbara thanks for that thing on the frogs from Aesop hmm sure explains some workplace behavior i have noticed over the years.

as a yet unpublished author but struggling writer in a way i agree with the post that suggests a writer often is most concerned with telling a good story. one of my challenges has been walking the tightrope of what is called "literary" writing and mass market writing. my characters reflect the everyday world doing everyday things but often have a literary bend to why they behave in the way they do and of course do not have mass market endings to their stories.

think authors are delighted for the most part when people dissect their work, in a way its part of their job because we often use literature to explain the nature of the world and its people. symbols have historically told intricate tales and justified the nature of things includindg the sunrise- i think this all gives and added dimension to how we interpret the world.

What i try to do through my character the Wee One, is turn the ordinary into the extraordinary. She is the one who carries the magic, which i see as love and imagination. I only write short stories and i have been e-published. I have only been writing for a year, so i have much to learn. That is why i am here and why i read the book. I prefer children's lit to adult reading now because of my need to know and learn.

Children's stories have the same themes as adult lit...

Welcome Gail so glad you found us - you sure kicked off thought waves about writing and reading with several who have been posting in this Harry Potter discussion.

There are so many ways to enjoy a story aren't there? I remember being so annoyed years ago because I had the opportunity to see Camolot on Broadway and was sharing the magic and wonderous beauty of the story and setting with my sister-in-law hoping for a chat capturing the reverie of the whole experience - Well - she - was into amauture dramatics - well the whole play got pulled apart and the lighting that helped this scene or that actor and the delivery, how the music was too intrusive here or there, on and on. She absolutly loved it but was seeing it out of very different eyes and at the time I felt shattered.

Since then I've learned folks bring their own experience into every situation and without knowing everyone's history, it is always an adventure as to how people will react to any event or story.

Maryal Oh yes - Once a work of art is finished, it is out there in the world and many people see things in it that surprise the author. Who knows what kind of subconscious wells the author, painter, sculptor draws on when in the act of creation? In fact just last week I was so excited that I thought I had come up with a NEW thought and then reading the posts in Where River Turns To Sky Gregg Kleiner, the author says the same thing in his way - that is that reading is a creative act because we bring our own values and history to a story combining both to make it our own.

Idris I've loved your expression folk/fae - if writing a story is anything like writing a letter I can see then what you are saying about an authors really not writing into their storyline what we readers react and pull out. I guess there is the philosopher in many of us that doesn't quit when we read. Oh Idris if you can't find the site about owls did you read it? Do you remember enough to give us a synopsis? Every year I think I am really going to read all the Greek myths and then it was going to be all the Celtic and Greek myths and every year goes by without my having completed the task. One of these "eyes bigger than..."

YiLi Lin For you there is a distinction between fantasy and magic and wonder...hmmm...would you share your understanding of the distinction please... Yes, I was shocked at the amount of wisdom in Aesops Fables. I thought instead of paying fo years of therapy I'd have been better off just buying a copy of Aesops Fables for $12.95. So much of what I struggle with was all there.

Knowing those Literary symbols sure does add to a read doesn't it but I wonder now if Gail is reminding me that for some it just takes the magic, the emotions, the feelings evoked by the story, away.

Bare with us if you can Gail - we each relate to this book in a different way and even the children related differently. We wanted so much to hear flow from their minds and hearts reactions to characters and happenings in the story and yet, many came up with their one word synopsis - "Cool" - said with all the wonder and excitment in their eyes and faces. I think for those that witnessed that look, it was worth all the words we have written in our posts.

Idris you too - I just love Childrens Lit. There is a sense of adventure in a children's story that I thrive on and I guess no matter how sad or filled with pathos a story may be, somehow there is a feeling of satisfaction and more often a smile on my face when I have completed the tale. Typically it is easier for me to feel like I am transported into the story, if not as a character than as an onlooker. Hope you join us in Classic Children's Literature Revisited Some great posts especially from Katie Jacque and Ellen, oh so many, it is hard to remember everyone. Out of that discussion we deside what Children's book we will be reading and discussing next. Currently we are doing the new publication of Annotated Alice This discussion, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, came about because it is a best seller and none of the discussion leaders of adult fiction wanted it although, several posts indicated folks wanted to read it - voila, we are doing it! And it has been a blast - I've enjoyed every post - been awhile since I really enjoyed a book while getting more aha's then I ever dreamed.

Barbara, i did find this one again. Why don't i learn to save to one of my research folders instead of just doing copy? Huh? Huh? Huh?

) I shall keep looking for the rest and post should i find it again.

Owls in English Folklore

Folklore surrounding the Barn Owl is better recorded than for most other Owls. In English literature the Barn Owl had a sinister reputation probably because it was a bird of darkness, and darkness was always associated with death. During the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, the poets Robert Blair and William Wordsworth used the Barn Owl as their favourite "bird of doom." During that same period many people believed that the screech or call of an Owl flying past the window of a sick person meant imminent death.

Whow - imminent death...

Dumbledore's answer to Harry's question about why he was not killed along with his parents is interesting. He says, "When you are older - when you are ready, you will know."

It is also stated that Voldemort cannot stand "love."

This is also interesting but we already knew it...Gold By the ancient alchemists, gold represented the sun, and silver the moon. In heraldry, gold is expressed by dots. All he touches turns to gold. It is said of Midas that whatever he touched turned to gold.

The other thing i noticed is the use of three's throughout the book. I like three's..very magical.

)

Three Pythagoras calls three the perfect number, expressive of “beginning, middle, and end,” wherefore he makes it a symbol of Deity. The world was supposed to be under the rule of three gods, viz. Jupiter (heaven), Neptune (sea), and Pluto (Hades). Jove is represented with three-forked lightning, Neptune with a trident, and Pluto with a three-headed dog. The Fates are three, the Furies three, the Graces three, the Harpies three, the Sibylline books three; the fountain from which Hylas drew water was presided over by three nymphs, and the Muses were three times three; the pythoness sat on a tripod. Man is three-fold (body, soul, and spirit); the world is three-fold (earth, sea, and air); the enemies of man are three-fold (the world, the flesh, and the devil); the Christian graces are three-fold (Faith, Hope, and Charity); the kingdoms of Nature are threefold (mineral, vegetable, and animal); the cardinal colours are three in number (red, yellow, and blue), etc. (See Nine , which is three times three.)

Even the Bible consists of the Old Testament, the New Testament, and the Apocrypha. Our laws have to pass the Commons,-Lords, and Crown.

I'm still hunting for the rest...

(

hit the nail on the head as far as I am concerned. Hmm, "Never trust the teller, trust the tale". I think this is what Gail meant in her post and what I have been trying to say in all of mine. I enjoy the reading, connect with the characters, admire the plot, BUT, I have frequently been confused with the analysis of literary terms, connections with myth, etc. I am a fairly literal thinking person and sometimes I just haven't understood a lot of the discussion. One thing I do like about this discussion, though, is the opportunity for interaction. It does make me think about it. Sue.

We certainly are having a good time together, in any event.

)

Just have to get in on your THREE - pulled out my Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Traditional Symbols by JC Cooper - some things she adds to three are:

THREE Multiplicity; creative power; growth; forward movement overcoming duality; synthesis.

'Three is the first number to which the word "all" has been appropriated and the Traid is the number of the whole, inasmuch as it contains a beginning, a middle and an end'(Aristotle)

Past, present, future; the three phases of the moon.

Three is the 'heavenly' number, representing the soul, as four is the body; together the two equal seven and from the sacred hebdomad; while 3X4 is twelve, representing the signs of the Zodiac and the months of the year.

Three carries the authority of accumulated effect...three times carries certainty and power - Thrice Greatest Hermes; Thrice Noble Lord, Thrice Hqppy Isles.

Folklore has three wishes, three tries, three princes or princesses, witches, weird sisters, fairies (often two good and one bad), three feats, the third time is the charm.

Three cheers signifies fulfilment.

Innumerable trinities of gods and powers, lunar dieties, and threefold goddesses are prominent in Greek, Celtic and Teutonic religions often different aspects or potencies of one diety. Bridgit is threefold. Three gifts of the magi, three days on the cross, the denials by Peter, three days after death of Christ till appearance. Three Gorgons as Medusa, Chimera has a three-part body. In Qabalism three represents understanding and the trinity of male, female and uniting intelligence. Hinu Trinity; Brahma, Siva, Vishnu the powers of creation, preservation and destruction.

Triangle, trident, fleur-de-lis, trefoil, trisula, triple thunderbolt, trigrams.

Lunar animals are often three-legged and in France there are three rabbits or people in the moon. In Chinese the moon toad, or bird, is three-legged. The Slav moon god is triple headed, in Carthage the Great Goddess as lunar is represented by three aniconic pillars.

Scandinavian and Teutonic; Fate as the three Norns; Mani, Nyi, Nithi who donote the full, new and waning moon. The moon is Fate and Holda the lunar goddess in triune with her two daughters. the hare in the moon has three legs. Thor is sometimes depicted with three heads and the triskele is the symbol of Odin. Three is good fortune "Aller guten Dinge sind drei"

Alchemy the ternary; sulphur, quicksilver, salt, represents spirit, soul and body.

Japan the Theree treasures are; the Mirror, Sword and Jewel- Truth, Courage, Compassion.

We hear you Sue...jump in and share with us from your perspective what was your favorite part of the story and what part of the story could your picture in your head? Did anything hit you in the story that would make you think differently about what you are capable of?

SpringCreek: You have read me correctly and said it much better than I. And to the chidren who reacted with "cool", that says it all!

Hehe this is so much fun - Yes Gail they are saying it in a twenty-first century sound bite aren't they - Were you able to share the story with a grand or a neighbor child? How did they react? Isn't if fun to have read a book that you can talk about with the youngsters now? You also Gail, what was your favorite part of the story?

I loved that opening with the owls desending on the city and I could just feel the cold wind as they plunged down the passage ways to get Harry's fortune with Griphook stearing or not. Having slid the great slides in the Salt mines in Switzerland the ride reminded me of that plunge, through the dark, past salt lakes and ancient holes going back to the middle ages, squeezing smaller each year with the weight of the mountain.

Since I've read all three of the books, I have some details mixed up. I'll skim over The Sorceror's Stone and try to choose a chapter that I liked better than others. However, that will be difficult as the whole book kept my attention and I ripped through it rapidly. I'll have to confess that I have read at least 25 books since we started this. Sometimes I can't remember the names of the books or the authors I read. I average about 6 books a week. Sue

Sue---You ARE a reader. Wow. Glad you liked the Lawrence quote. I do too, and I agree with him. I also am a literalist, more or less. I get lost in symbolism talk sometimes. I stick with the primary level of meaning until I understand it and only then look for other things.

Idris---I am very curious. If you don't mind, how do you pronounce your first name? Is the first I long?

Maryal

One pronounces it eye dris, it is a Welsh boys name...but i am a female. My mother was Welsh.

Idris---I was hoping that was the pronunciation because that is what I have been thinking. It is a lovely name.

Oh my Sue you do read - how do you keep them all straight! Do you read that many every month or just now that the holidays are over and it is winter - also, is it cold where you live and therefore the snuggly thing to do - stay in and read?

Golly I am jealous - just being able to read all the books I would like would be heaven - what's the catch Sue - no one can be that lucky.

Do you keep a journal on what you read - do you get the books from the library - i feel like a kid in awe and asking a 100 questions.

SPIELBERG TO DIRECT HP MOVIE! It has finally been announced that Steven Spielberg will direct the Harry Potter movie! The film is to be based on the first book and is expected to be in theaters in Summer 2001!

I'm glad Spielberg will direct. Fingers crossed that he will use an all-British cast. Spielberg has exactly the right kind of mind (the child is still there lurking) to do Harry Potter and do it right.

Maryal

Saw an interview with George Lukas last night on our MetroArts station, the interview was done by Bill Moyers so I think it might be shown on other PBS stations throughout the country. Well i'd like to have been able to tape this so i could replay is salient comments and post summaries for this discussion.

This is an interesting, knowledgeable and discerning individual. His viewpoints on mythology and developmental psychology and their role in imagination and creating written and visual works sure would contribute to this discussion. i've never seen star wars but intend to find a video soon. he made reference to heroes and choices one makes along the path to heroism. he also pinpointed an age in america (different from other countries) as the choosing time between 18 and 24. in other times and places the age was much younger, if not this age for harry perhaps in his next book. so now with these insights i'm seeing harry as being early on exposed to the early understanding that one can choose how one will live and this book is for his rumination. guess now i do want to read the next.

so i'll be following harry with a neitzchean bent- but working backwards rather than asking ourselves as adults how did i get to be who i am- i'll watch harry choose to be who he will be.

barb- yeah not to belabor that IF you are good THEN you will... aside from being the forerunner of the "computer model if,then statement" was just another (is) for one to control another. When the child digests and accepts the if,then as true he probably is responding to some archetypical energy that tries to control the personal universe.

What think you all of the voices being heard across this country calling the Harry Potter books satanic?

Let me, while posing the question, assure you I think it is Balderdash and simply a searchlight beam being focused on a point to use to stir up a fervor and keep certain groups cohesive which otherwise might fall apart; especially now that January 1, 2000 has come and gone without a second coming or the end of times. Whenever groups do not have a strong plan for keeping together: such as working to feed the hungry children of the world, etc.; then these groups have to Divide peoples by first fear and then hatred. In this instance: Fear Harry Potter first, leading to Ban the Books, leading to Burn the Books, leading to Hate those who buy, sell, own and read the books!

saw this Satanic publicity after they had purchased the 3 books for my grandson. She asked my opinion. I agree with you. It's much ado about nothing. However, it does disturb me that there are people who go around looking for ways to censor children's reading. I encouraged our sons to read anything and everything. If their reading material was questionable, we discussed it. I don't think youngsters should be introduced and encouraged to read pornography and excessive violence, but when our kids did stumble onto something like that, we talked to them about how we feel about it. I'm afraid there are groups, however, who are trying to foist their way of life on us, not only children. I'm speaking particularly of those who have political litmus tests and those politicians who pander to these groups. Sue

MaryPage----I've heard all about the Satanic nature of these books. I think it is silly and said almost always by people who have not read the books. They probably also haven't read Mary Poppins or anything else with magic in it.

Maryal

My own procedure in dealing with these Satanic and similar types of attacks is to ignore them and go about doing what I choose to do. Reacting to them is exactly what they want us to do. Gives them greater publicity.

Robby

I would sort of like to read the next Harry Potter, just to see how things go for dear Harry and his friends--and can this author hold to the standard she has set in the first book. Is the second of the series out in paperback yet, does anyone know?

I concur with the opinions already stated here about this satanic ap-cray with which certain elements are trying to rouse a little rabble! May they stew in their own overabundant juices!!

Wow YiLi Lin - YES!yeah not to belabor that IF you are good THEN you will... aside from being the forerunner of the "computer model if,then statement" was just another (is) for one to control another. When the child digests and accepts the if,then as true he probably is responding to some archetypical energy that tries to control the personal universe. Yes - that is it isn't it! It is a control tactic - how clear now.

Ok now that the light bulb that YiLi Lin had turned on is at normal power, don't you think it is too easy to condem what you do not understand or imagine you know because you were taught by those you respect to fear and not research the information for yourself? I too remember all the put downs, mininizing by making it into a joke or, actually comdemming witchcraft as satanic. We know now that most of the woman burned during the witch trials were labled witches. After reading in those sites available on the internet about witchcraft, it appears to be a harmless religion based on some of the fears and thinking of the middle ages. Just as I was shocked to learn that Buddhism is considered a pagan religion I can see now how the Christian Church had a good propaganda campaigne against anything they could not control. Too bad because the Christian phylosophy is so great that it does itself a dishonor reducing itself to such practices of having it's members cry Satan at the very religion their ancesestors practiced.

As for Harry Potter - well more children's stories then not seem to me to use magic as a way for the child to become empowered. How about a pumpkin into a carrage and mouse into horses or sleeping for a hundred years and then a prince wakes you with a kiss -!

I have not read this book but have read every post.

I think about the Easter bunny, Santa Claus that most Christians observe and the Christmas tree etc. Just had to post about this.

Someone a few posts back asked if I had any favorite parts in "Harry Potter"; aside from the Owl postal delivery service, there were two comments that I found very significant: Page 298, Dumbledore to Harry..."Call him Voldemort - always use the proper name for things. Fear of a name (or the unfamiliar or unknown..my note) increases fear of the thing itself." Can we relate this to calling homosexuals "queer", "fag", etc., or racial epithets. Is this what Dumbledore is saying?

More: "The truth - it is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution". What message was that for Harry - or for all children?

I hate to sound grouchy but I am getting very impatient havng to continually scroll down all the information about all the HP books before getting to the posts. Am I alone in this?

Gail, sorry you don't like the long headings, are they slow loading or you just don't care to scroll? The headings are the expression of the leaders of each discussion, they are unique to SeniorNet and sort of an offering, if you will, to the readers here. If you find that something is struggling to load you can always play a game with the "stop" button and if you hit it just right, it will bring you immediately to the next post.

De gustibus Some of us love the informative headings, some don't. Please don't let it keep you from enjoying the discussion itself!

Ginny

to keep it going- fear what you can't control, especially people so now methinks this is the role of fantasy- fantasy helps us not feel like jerks because we are afraid and it justifies the fact that we can't control certain things- so we create the phantasmagorical. some fantasy is fun- shops floating through the universe, talking cats, etc. other fantasies unpeal our fears like an onion and the old shame thing erupts so we call it satanic. satan is the embodiment of our fear of lack of control. so alas, "the devil made me do it" (appplause Flip Wilson).....

Ah yes, understanding that Shame means that 'we are wrong' not that 'we have done something wrong'.

My thoughts are whirling and I'm seeing Harry as a real little boy that felt shame, that something was wrong with him, as if he was in control of his parents death and therefore, imagined this awful 'Cinderella in the Cinders' life as his due, sleeping in a cupboard under the stairwell with a family of Muggles. A typical way a young boy could describe how he feels inside. Vaguely I am remembering my Enlish Lit. class that discussed the setting is really describing the theme of the story. An interior (under the stairwell) dark closet would be symbolic of an interior life or the life of feelings wouldn't it.

Then he imagines a character filled with heart but little mental gymnastics and the heart filled character helps him open to a world of becoming. He first chutles deep within along with the help of his heart, Hagrid, to accept some riches bequeathed him by his parants and with that, purchases his suit of belonging as well as, his personal means of communication. His first challange is as Idris pointed out, to leave behind his childhood and go for the train. There he makes friends, finds that he is good at something, learns of his hearts desire and bravely with his friends, seeks the legacy of love left to him by his parants, along the way he sacrifices, faces fear, trusts and brushes against wisdom and understanding.

That journey, to really find and own the legacy of love seems to me to be all our life's journey; adventure; path; the light we are, according to St. Augustine, pulled towards.

YiLi LIn I love your expression "fun-shops floating through the universe"

I love the way these fantasy tales justify our purpose in life and for me, always comes, some greater understanding of my choices while on 'the way'.

Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Clause and Ginger you are so right on - along with the Easter Bunny, Paul Bunyon, Johnny Appleseed. In this area of the country the Easter Bunny fantasy helped some children through some very scary times. There is a small German town west of Austin called Fredricksburg. When the German settlers were first in the area one year at Easter time the Comanchie had camped all over the surrounding hills and their campfires were visible to the freightened settlers. They calmed the children by telling them it was the Easter Bunny needing so many fires to color all the eggs required to be delivered on Easter Sunday.

Fascinating story, Barbara. I love bits like that. Remember FDR and his: "The Only Thing We Have To Fear Is Fear Itself!" ? The whole history of mankind is full of innocent men, women and children being cast out, tortured, or slain because others feared that about them which was foreign to their understanding. And, yes, it seems to me, too, that Dumbledore was trying to keep Harry from forming this very habit when he admonished him to Name the enemy and Face who and what he really is. We should look directly at what we fear and figure out Why we fear it or them and discard the boogie men, keeping only the real. Difference is not a reason to fear.

Barbara---Yes, I'd say that the bedroom under the stairs is psychologically relevant. And remember what stairs are for. Harry is living under the stairs and the rest of the family is walking over him, literally.

Maryal

Hmmmm...this gives the story another layer of meaning doesn't it...we could just go on and on seeing the symbolism.

Please, I believe I had e-mailed everyone that has participated in this discussion...if you did not get your owl posty just email me...I need some feedback -

if we want to continue reading the remaining books or not If we choose to read about how much time are you thinking we should take should we schedule one book at a time.: or not

If we choose to read about how much time are you thinking we should take
should we schedule one book at a time.
If we choose to read about how much time are you thinking we should take should we schedule one book at a time.: should we schedule one book at a time.

I have 5 responses so far and do they run the gammut from keeping this alive till all seven books are published and we have read/discussed them - to - it's been fun but enough is enough and one hehehe who doesn't remember ever posting with us.

But I will e-mail you my opinion. I'm willing to keep on going for at least the second in the series. Sue

I am injoying lurking over here, would love to lurk thru the next book!

dapph

dapphne---If you don't want to post, perhaps you could convince Brandy to do so. <G>

but she would "out me", Maryal......

Is that what I want. right now??????

Dapphne----I say GO for it!

i'd like to read another, but not until mid or late february- 1) i think we're still exploring some stuff here that we might want to bring to closure then take our thoughts to the next book and 2) there are a couple other neat books on the net that i'd like to get finished. but count me in- what is the next book?

I'm not quite ready to read the second book but I intend to and when we do, it would be helpful, in my opinion, if we stick to just one Harry Potter book at a time.

Robby

Robby, I think when you do read the next books you will see that they are really all one book. I, for one, find myself thinking of all three books as one. It is rather like a biography of one person coming out in 7 installments. It is very difficult to speak of Just One Book of, say, a 6 volume set on the life of Winston Churchill. We Could so do; but I find it confining.

OK FOLKS - HERE IS THE SKINNY - looks like there are several who want to go on with the series, or at least through the next book. And yes, the books may be a complete tale broken in sections called books but, we can only read one book at a time. Several of you have read all three books and I am sure that colors your musing and posting

we forgive you

in light of such the connection between the books, we will simply continue in this discussion page - change the title and the focus questions.

It also appears that folks want a breather before we start the next book. So let's pick-up discussing the next book in 3 weeks on Friday February 11. That gives those of us that haven't read the book an opportunity to get started so that we are at least into ...the Chamber of Secrets by a chapter or two by February 11.

Until then, I will leave only one focus question in the heading in case someone new comes to the site. That way they have an idea what we are all about also, will leave the current book title Sorcerer's Stone until the week of February 11.

Please, continue to post but I expect we will be less vocal for the next few weeks and I am also planning a break. I will not be responding to each and every poster every day until the week of February 11. Pull up a chair in our Great Hall during our break as Harry and Ron and Hormoine hung out during their Holiday break at Hogwarts and please welcome any passerby - make them feel comfortable imiagining they are chatting from one of our cushy overstuffed chairs.

This adventure has been grand and I have learned so much along with what to me is the best part of reading and discussing a book and that is to either change, broaden or justify my thoughts, opinions and values - thanks y'all!

Just had to add this Associated Press Top Headline: "Jordan Takes Charge of Wizards". !!!

Gail:

Shouldn't the Wizards have been placed under "Magic" Johnson?

Robby

Maybe Michael Johnson should try a term at Hogswart... He'll need it to turn The Wizards around..

would like to thank barbara for leading a wonderful discussion. i am grateful for the amount of time you put into this discussion page, the links, the jump start quetions and of course your continued gracious support reinforcing our posts and creating a warm place to cozy up on these cold winter days. so i'll be heading off to the library for the next book see ya in february.

Yes Barbara! My thanks and compliments to you for the most interesting and varied CHANGING header I've yet seen around here! And I'm one of those stuffy short header people! Haha! Look forward to more of Harry soon!

I missed a lot of posts and it would take me until Feb. 11 to catch up so I am going to get the Chamber of Secrets and try to be ready for the next discsussion. I echo the kudo's, thank you Barbara. Will you be our discussion leader for the next book?

Barbara, i have book two and shall begin reading next week. Thank you for your leadership in this thread.

)

February 11th should give me enough time to buy the book and start reading but, once again, I give my preference as sticking to one book at a time otherwise I don't understand the comments and/or questions of those who have read more books.

Robby

Mucho Gratsia, your comments are so apprieciated especially since, as you know, we are volunteers here.

And yes, one book at a time although, since we have read ...Sorcerer's Stone if there are comments that refer to both these books I think we will be fine don't you think Robby?

I understand that the volunteers that manage the entire system on SeniorNet are at work trying to make our discussion pages as user friendly as possible.

I've had occassion to bring up Harry Potter during some adult luncheons and amazing how often the men sorta laugh and then say their wives are reading it to their children. They, like a comedian taking a second take, react with an accepting look when I share how 'deep' the stories really are.

I do have the three books as I too received them as Christmas Gifts from my Grands but like YiLI Lin I need to catch up with the other reads here on SeniorNet and this spell of cold (not like y'all are experiencing north and east) is letting me do just that.

Well Bramwell has started so I'm off for my PBS Sunday night fix.

Barbara:

I agree with you that referring to a previous book would be OK and perhaps even helpful as we examine the second one.

Robby

On my way with Book #2. Kinda wish Harry didn't grow up so fast.

Barbara:

You have done such a marvelous job with all the various interesting links at the heading above that a student could actually use them to do research on the book or on owls or on wizardry. And I mean that seriously!

Robby

LONDON (Reuters) - A literary dogfight broke out over Britain's prestigious Whitbread book prize Wednesday when it emerged that Nobel laureate Seamus Heaney came close to being beaten by the tale of a schoolboy wizard.

The Whitbread judges broke with precedent by letting it be known that J.K. (Joanne) Rowling's "Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban" finished just one vote behind Heaney's much acclaimed translation of the Anglo-Saxon epic "Beowulf."

The Whitbread had already been accused of "dumbing down" by the organizers of its rival -- the Booker prize -- when Jerry Hall, the Texan model and former partner of Rolling Stones singer Mick Jagger, was appointed to the panel of judges.

That suspicion was reinforced in the minds of critics when it became apparent that the latest Harry Potter -- a children's book -- came close to scooping the 23,000 pound ($38,000) prize.

One judge, author Anthony Holden, said it would have been a "national humiliation" if Potter had won.

His threat to resign if that happened was denounced as "pompous" by another judge, thriller writer Robert Harris.

"If Harry Potter had won, it would have shown Britain and the world that we are a Ruritanian theme park country," Holden told reporters

London's Evening Standard newspaper commented: "Rowling is a brilliant writer of children's works but only readers who refuse to grow up demand that Harry Potter should be treated as a masterpiece for adults too,"

It rejected suggestions from Rowling's backers that only "literary snobbery" had robbed the author of the prize.

POPULARITY VERSUS POSTERITY

Critic Philip Hensher noted that special editions of the Potter books, which have sold more than 27 million copies round the world, had been printed to allow adults to read them on the train to work without embarrassment.

But he was also adamant that Rowling and her Potter character should not win the Whitbread.

"The world of these books is thin and unsatisfactory, their imagery is derivative, their characterization automatic and their structure deeply flawed," he said.

Sara Odedina of Bloomsbury, the company which publishes the three Potter books, said Hensher was being "churlish and pompous."

"By criticizing them he is criticizing the five million people who bought the books in Britain," she said.

The series is also popular in the United States, with the three books topping the New York Times best seller list.

"Harry Potter" won the 10,000 pounds ($16,460) children's book award. It was allowed into the main competition after the rules were changed to permit the entry of children's books.

In finally choosing Heaney's translation of a work from the first millennium, the judges acknowledged they faced difficulties, especially as it was the fourth year in a row that a volume of poetry had won.

"There was some argument whether a translation was a genuine collection of poems," said Eric Anderson, rector of Oxford University's Lincoln College and chairman of the judges.

But he concluded that "it was retrieving for the public a buried treasure."

Irishman Heaney, 60 years old and a previous Whitbread winner, said he would not have translated Beowulf if he could not have brought something of "his own voice" to the work.

I find this article most interesting. How about you? Sue

Sue:

As for that remark that "only people who refuse to grow up treat Harry Potter as a masterpiece for adults" --- that includes me!! There is a little boy inside of me and I will fight tooth and nail anyone who tries to take him away from me.

Robby

I ask myself which book will make the greatest impression on the most people. Harry Potter i think. Here we have a series of books that may well be classics and read 100 years from now. I think the negative speaker is a stuff shirt! Imagination is the essence of childhood. Harry Potter has it.

Just my opinion.

)

Thanks for responding. I thought most of us would probably agree that J. K. Rowling is a gifted writer who has included lots of truths in this Harry Potter series. Sue

There are many children's book which are classics. They have the same subject matter as adult books. The child may not know what he or she is learning but one day he will know. He is prepared in a way for what is to come.

Who could think of not reading Beatrix Potter's Books, Tuck Everlasting, The Velveteen Rabbit, Charlotte's Web, L.M. Montrogery's Anne of Green Gables series and on and on. These books don't talk down to children the writers were gifted. They are the things of life.

The Harry Potter series is still banned in the schools in our area. And it now brings a punishment of ISS (in-school suspension) if the book is brought to school. It is so sad to see such censorship. But they are allowed to read The Witch and The Wardrobe... which really is not that much different.

Pat:

On what grounds is the Harry Potter series banned?

Robby

Pat, are you Really Serious? If so, hasn't there been a huge outcry? Book banning here in America?! When I was young, Boston banned books and everyone who wrote one hoped they got "Banned in Boston" so they would become an instant bestseller! But banned in Illinois? Is it supposed to be the content, or just banned to keep them paying attention to their classes? Barbara, I have finally traveled through all of your web links here and find this magic you have made for us as wonderful as the books! Have you, yourself, noted the link that shows the covers of all of the books published? It shows the covers of the Adult editions, which you had wondered about earlier. Also the French, German, Dutch, etc.

Well, Congratulations on a fabulous job here and my sincere thanks and appreciation.

The books are full of witchcraft, so they say.. and I think that the banning of the books has made the kids more anxious to read them... The Parents don't like the censorship, but have found that the principal takes her revenge on the children of the parents who object.

It's a no win situation...

Pat:

Isn't the principal responsible to the Board of Education which, in turn, is responsible to the voters? You mean the people have no voice?

Robby

Amazing! How in the world did someone so granite-brained achieve the position of Principal of a school? The sort of person who takes on that type of responsibility Should be a flexible, non-judgmental type who can quickly and resolutely determine what is important and what is ridiculous.

I believe the Aslin series (is that how you spell it) is Christian in its allusions. Please correct me if i'm wrong, folks.

Here we have a Harry Potter series of books which seems to speak to something in us we have lost. Now, it is being banned. Makes you wonder doesn't it? The truth is being banned is good for just about anything in art. Gets people to notice it who would never think of it otherwise.

How do i get my stories banned?

)

Here's hoping you Can get your books banned! I don't know Where: but banned into the headlines!

Is it Just me, or is there a paradox here? I do not believe Any of this is Real. It is Make Believe. Make Believe is beautiful and precious and lovely, fun escapism. There is Nothing harmful in escaping, temporarily, into a world of fantasy. But if you BAN it; then are you not admitting that you Believe in it? If you Ban Magic or Witchcraft or Whatever; then are you not saying that it EXISTS?

C.S. Lewis, who wrote about Aslan in The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe and the 6 lovely Narnia books that followed (hmmm! Rowlings is writing 7 as well!), was a converted Catholic and something of a mystic. He wrote an allegory of the death and rising of Jesus to make it easier for children to absorb and accept.

Are we not supposed to teach our children to fear that which is Real and to Know what is Real and what is Not?

For instance: don't try to walk across an interstate because you will get squshed, squished, squashed and be dead forever. Now That is Real!

But ghosties and goblins and things that go bump in the night? I bent over backwards to teach my children these were Not real! How about you?

I was very careful about helping my children to understand the difference between Real and Imaginary. When they watched TV i was in the same room. The kitchen and family room were all of a piece.

They lost their grandfather very early in their lives and i used my own faerytale version of Tuck Everlasting to tell them about death. I did not tell them what it was about...they understood. It made it easier for them to come to terms with his death. Children are a lot smarter than most people think they are.

I would tell them what was real and what was not. Puppets helped to teach this. TV news at that time was very violent...they knew that was real and we stopped watching the 6 o'clock news. They really didn't watch much TV in any event.

I'm sure other parents have done a much better job of this than i did but to understand reality and fantasy is fairly easy teach if you want to. It just takes a little time and patience. I never found it to be a big problem.

I agree with you Mary Page.

)

Sounds to me as though you did a great job with your children, Idris. And put a lot more thought into it than many of us do.

So, bottom line here. If you don't believe in witchcraft and magic, and magicians, and food appearing on plates, and goblets refilling themselves, and playing a game while flying through the air on brooms is Real, then why ban it?

I have no idea, MaryPage. As you say to ban it is to suggest this world of imagination has real creatures in it. Most confusing. Then again i am one who believe in self-censorship. There are some legal things that disturb me, but i would never have it banned.

Look what I started... Sorry ... Granite head principal... perfect ...

Yes, she is responsible to Superintendent and Board of ED.. But they are also of that mind.. We even went thru a period of Library cleansing. Seems a shame, but how will these children learn to find good literature? Will they always have to ask the church, or someone else what they should read. You have to read a little trash along the way, or you won't know what is good.

I also tried to impress upon my children what was real and what was imaginary. Our oldest, when about 6, could not watch the Lassie show. He became very upset when Lassie had problems. He loved our dog so and he felt like Lassie was real. He understood that animated shows were imaginary.

MaryPage, Illinois is not the only state where censorship of children's reading is happening. There has been a big uproar in South Carolina also, because to some groups there Harry Potter contains "Satanic ideas". These are probably the same groups who keep the Confederate battle flag flying because of "tradition". The censorship is not in every school in Illinois. My grandson's teacher in Edwardsville has been reading the series to his class.

If you have not been involved in public education recently, you may not know that many times parents' groups try to ban books from school libraries. Most kids love Judy Blume's books about adolescent angst, and some schools have been pressured to remove them.

And yes, Robbie, the public has the right to vote the school board out in most communities. However, the most vocal and active seem to be those who would censor books and condemn teachers. Go figure! Sue

The only book my daughter read at age 12 her teacher phoned me about was "Go ask Alice." I told her i was reading the book with her and we were discussing it. I also asked my daughter not to take it to school again.

The only book i have heard of being banned locally was "The Bible as Literature" It was on our English 101, list. Somehow the older students didn't like it being taught as literature. As this is the basis for so much of the English Classics i found its banning terrible.

The Prof was not teaching religion for goodness sakes.

isn't the world amazing- guess we "colonists" need to consider another revolution of sorts- in the spirit of alice, huck and the like perhaps we could consider a SeniorNet award for the Potter books- i mean this seriously, and present it with appropriate rationale to the author along with a strong press release. any takers?

I'm over here in Canada, Yi Li Lin and the books are not banned here. I have heard nothing but wonderful things about her books and that includes the two newspapers we get delivered.

She is given full credit for getting young boys to read longer books too.

Pat...

I am curious..Do the kids discuss Harry Potter books, even though they aren't allowed in the school??????

Did that old broad eliminate King Arthur also????

I have some brew that you can introduce her to, that should lighten her up a bit!!

dapph

Oh my this is absolutly ludicrous isn't it? Talk about knocking down the highest sunflower -

First Sue shares with us that

The Whitbread judges broke with precedent by letting it be known that J.K. (Joanne) Rowling's "Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban" finished just one vote behind Heaney's much acclaimed translation of the Anglo-Saxon epic "Beowulf."

The Whitbread had already been accused of "dumbing down" by the organizers of its rival -- the Booker prize -- when Jerry Hall, the Texan model and former partner of Rolling Stones singer Mick Jagger, was appointed to the panel of judges.

That suspicion was reinforced in the minds of critics when it became apparent that the latest Harry Potter -- a children's book -- came close to scooping the 23,000 pound ($38,000) prize.

One judge, author Anthony Holden, said it would have been a "national humiliation" if Potter had won.

His threat to resign if that happened was denounced as "pompous" by another judge, thriller writer Robert Harris.

"If Harry Potter had won, it would have shown Britain and the world that we are a Ruritanian theme park country," Holden told reporters

Then Pat shares with us that the principle of a school in Illinios thinks the book is so influential that it will scar children's brain since some of the magic Harry experiences sounds too much like the wrong kind of worship. So for one country Harry Potter books are an embarrassment with a Texan dumbing down the intelligence quota in Britian and in another country it is so infulential it will what - make witches and satanic worshipers out of our children leading them to all kinds of monstrous deeds. Hehe this is were the Supreme Court's ruling on keeping religion out of school could be used in a way not intended but - hay.

I love it when MaryPage says;

But if you BAN it; then are you not admitting that you Believe in it? If you Ban Magic or Witchcraft or Whatever; then are you not saying that it EXISTS?

The Parliament of Owls has been wonderful delivering the chats about this and that book that also allude to Sorcerery at the least but, is filled with magic. Problem I just wonder at the education level of these school administrators. Our site linked above explains that even Saint Augustine was into Alchemy looking for the Sorcerer's Stone! Pat that would make a great letter to the editor wouldn't it. Hit the link above - Nicolas Flamel & the Holy Grail - and there is tons about our early Christian Fathers looking for the Sorcerer's Stone in one form or another. Hehe even Beowulf Beowulf all 43 chapters||Beowulf a Lit. Classic speaks to Sorcery!

where the haunts of these Hell-Runes* be.
Such heaping of horrors the hater of men,
Hell-Runes means the Sorcerer's from Hell -

Why are these folks so fearful - what a rue ha - well, as y'all are saying, if this is urging the young reader to the books then she is doing her job.

What still amazes me is, how many preachers are still preaching not to read anything but the Bible! We look at miss-used and miss-placed power in government but oh, who is going to take on the un-educated Christian that 'needs to control' and of course assuring others aren't educated sure corals those they seek to control. Looks like this principle has learned the lesson of control and I wonder where she learned it?

Of course I must say their voices have long echoes because it was only by really reading the link that Dapph recommended that I had a real look at this altnertive method of adoration to God. Still echoed, after all these years, was the negative aspect of even seriously saying the word, Witchcraft.

Maybe what we need is an adult cover as the Brits have. MaryPage I remember coming across that Link and now can't find it - if you have it would you put it up please? As I recall there were two links and one was more complete than the other.

Yili Lin Great idea about something from SeniorNet. Let me first bounce it off those that have been around longer and appear to represent SeniorNet. I know we have sponcors that would be affected - ah the glory of being independent and free still alludes.

Robby I think we are the people! My impression of the last 20 or 25 years though is we only have a voice if we can make a lot of noise or have a lot of money that we can give to an elected offical. We seem to be less inclusive as a Democracy and more inclusive as a Republic with representation by those with the gold! Do we bombard the newspaper in Pat's hometown with letters to the editor? We could!

Idris I can hear it now - hehe - LETTER TO THE EDITOR: We here in Canada do not ban children's books that include wizardry, magic, giants and goblins since that would wipe clean the shelves of most Children's Libraries in the land!

If this wasn't so sad it would be funny - I just wonder if with all the shouting the children will end up shouting louder and the sales will continue to top the charts.

Barbara i sure hope so.....may every child find a little magic to light their world. May we never grow so old in spirit that the child within does not come out to play once in awhile.

)

Pat W --I wish I could say that I am shocked that the Potter books have been banned at the local school, but I'm not. And when you added that the Board of Education was "of like mind," all my warning bells went off. I hope I won't ruffle too many feathers if I note that Christian fundamentalists (some not all) are determined to censor and ban any book that they believe is a threat to their religion.

MaryPage got it exactly right when she said that such banning shows an implicit fear that the books are teaching something that is real and a threat. I have been a participant in a chatroom for a while now where from time to time Harry Potter comes up. A number of people in the room have commented that they won't let their children read these books because of "Satanic material." I have asked several if they have read the books, or even a part of one of the books, and the response has always been along the lines of "Of course not. I won't read such trash."

I am concerned that we are talking not just about one school district in Illinois but about many such school districts where a majority of people are in favor of banning books.

There used to be a program on the radio every Saturday morning, "Let's Pretend." Fairy tales and other stories were acted out, and I loved it. I never once thought that any of the stories were real. Children are indeed, as someone pointed out, much smarter than we give them credit for.

Banning books only makes them more intriguing. I wonder how many kids in Altona have the Harry Potter books hidden under their beds?

Maryal

Barbara i sure hope so.....may every child find a little magic to light their world. May we never grow so old in spirit that the child within does not come out to play once in awhile.

)

Yes Idris and what really touches my heart as I read the Sorcerer's Stone was how much that magic really said somthing to me about courage and working together as a team and 'LOVE' the magic we all seek.

Love is the greatest magic afterall.....Just as my Missing Teddy Bear said in his story. Love of people, nature, animals and the world of imagination.

maryal_0 we have been posting Idris and I all at the same time - I think our hearts hurt today and our outrage is in place of our tears that adults could be so frankly, abusive to children in their short sighted uneducated controlling power!

Barbara St. Aubrey--You know that I am with you. I teach English and I get all upset when this kind of censorship rears its ugly head. And of all books to pick on, the magical Harry Potter series! How very very sad and misguided.

Maryal

Barbara: Go up above and click on Diagon Alley and when the site comes up, scroll down to the bottom and Take The Tour! Keep on with the tour through many, many wonderful sites and you will come, eventually, to the many book covers!

GOOD idea, Yi Li Lin!

No, Sue, I have Not been involved in Public Education recently. My grandchildren are grown and my oldest great grand is just in kindergarten. But I have had to muse on why this is going on and why the young people are not up in arms, and I would like to try this thought out on you all: We lived during WWII and we were appalled at the Nazis having begun their Reign Of Terror with public Book Burnings! We all remember the newsreels and newspaper and LIFE magazine photos of those horrible hours and we have a Great Fear of living in a Nation that permits banning of books, authors, ideas, etc. Our younger generations do not share these memories with us. They do not feel the icy cold fear clutch their hearts.

Idris: I do not agree with you (for a change!) about the Bible banning in a literature class. Unless the whole class agrees, then I believe the study of ANY religious book: the Bible, the Koran, the works of Confucious or Tao or Buddha, the Mahayana, etc. should be kept out of a study of literature and only taken up in a study of comparative religions or something of that nature. Me, I adore studying all religions in detail and have read the Bible all the way through twice in my life; but it IS the core of 2 major religions Not shared by many, many peoples.

Maryal O: Oh, Yes! I often think of Let's Pretend! Ten thirty every Saturday morning on the radio! Sybil Wolf always played the witch! Any witch or wicked queen or whatever! I can still hear that lilting tune, what was it? Something Gardens? An English tune, it came on at the very beginning and the very end, so you knew, long sigh, that the story was over! And you do not ruffle MY feelings with your remarks about the Christians; I am in total agreement with you.

MaryPage the book "The Bible As Literature" had been on the curriculum at Brock University for 20 years. It is no longer taught as part of the first year University English 101 course. The course dealt mainly with illusions in english lit. It made me appreciate things in Milton etc. to a far greater extent. However, i get your point. It was given but one short week and two seminars as i recall.

Not a big deal, Idris, and I DO adore you!

I am more than a little bit unhappy with the way Seniors View of the Future is going and am feeling so sorry for Robby (who will strongly resent my feeling sorry for him) because his special forum is getting so messy. And I don't know what can be DONE about it! I Do so like Nice, polite, happy conversations with SeniorNetters.

I'm trying to ignore it.

( I don't feel sorry for Robby, he can take it. I feel sorry for us.....we really enjoy the thread and it is getting very hard to post anything without a wall of criticism. I think they want the thread gone. You know like some want Harry Potter gone. I'm scrolling past some posts now.

Nothing like contraversy to get a pot boiling and Robby's discussion is filled with folks that not only like a pot boiling but they are often down right rude expressing their beliefs. Life is just too short and I don't usually learn much from street language.

Not to add fuel to fire but had to add my two cents to the thought of teaching using essentially religious books. Unfortunately I think with all our sensitivity to personal religious freedom we are taking most books written for a specific church so seriously that we have forgotten they were the means of making clear conversation for a thousand years or more. In the name of seperation between religion and State we could even ban the stories of the Greek and Roman gods and allow our reading of literature to become a real jumble of words without a map to understanding.

I understand religious freedom and truly I am not trying to step on anyones toes but, having grown up Catholic, a church that discouraged reading the Bible in that we were not supposed to be educated enough to understand it without knowing Greek and I forgot what other language therefore, I had no clue what bible version of Absalom was all about.

The history of western civilization included being governed by the Catholic Church for hundreds of years. Not only did they hold the power but the money and therefore, much of enduring art is depicting figures and stories from the Bible. When the church broke up after the Refermation there was still authors and artists using the Bible as a reference to explain mans soul to 'Everyman' through literature and the visual arts.

With the smattering of Buddhism and Taoism that I now know, it is so much richer reading and getting more from a book written by an Eastern author.

All in all I am trying to say that written material is more then a handbook for the organization that is exploring its spirituality, it is also a reference for allegory.

I know I sound like those that spout it isn't the gun that kills...but I really think it isn't the holy books that influence a child to believe in an alternate church different than their parants, it is the emphasis or way the reading is taught so children know that some people believe this and other's believe that and today we are studying a Bible story that is refered to in such and such piece of literature.

We are supposed to have a system of public education not parochial education. I would think public means to prepare a student to better understand a wide variety of books and various beliefs active in our own country as well as abroad. With all that I guess I am saying the Bible is an important part of western culture as is The Red Sea Scrolls, the Arthur legends and as is the writings of the Punic Wars etc.

It was always included in English 101 at Brock University for those very reasons Barbara. It was also required reading for the Study of Art students. It was only 3 people who stopped it from being included.

Most of the kids here are 18 and over so i sure didn't think it would hurt them in terms of their religious upbringing. However, the Prof lost the battle.

There is an interesting thread now in the Absalom, Absalom discussion concerning censorship. See posts #386-390 for a description and comment on the use of the "N" word in Huck Finn. Some of the comments might apply to the censorship of Harry Potter. Sue

Good Heavens we really have gone backwards haven't we - I guess we grandparants have a lot of work to do and for sure my habit of including a book as a gift for nearly every gift giving occasion will continue and now I will make sure we have time to read some of the book and compare what we are reading to other literature.

Interesting Sue I haven't yet read the Absalom thread but I did see some of last nights Huck special and one of my peeks included a black man reading from Huck saying that to him the great value was in Huck being called 'Trash' and Huck having a lesson in respect for Jim.

Sounds like it is the words of the Law versus the intent of the Law that folks are reacting to. HIstory has changed our language in many ways -

Barbara, I agree with everything you have said about religious influences in our civilization and particularly the writings. I see no harm in religious books in literature courses Except in cases where the course is a Requirement to graduate and the student feels their own religion prohibits their reading from other religious tracts. period. In short, I think Everyone should read, and would be better for reading, Everything out there they can cram in in one lifetime! They just should not be required to do so over objections of their faith, whatever it might be. Personally, there are no such prohibitions in My Life. I think the language was Aramaic.

Idris---I don't suppose it will make you feel any better, but I am currently teaching a course in The Bible and Literature at a college. I never interfere with students' personal beliefs or lack of belief. We stay on the stories, reading much of the Old Testament (or Hebrew Bible) and some of the New Testament. Sorry the prof lost the battle.

maryal

Requirement - wow - the more you think about the implication of that word and then the opposite of not having any Requirements - do you think that would mean anarchy? So many requiring Requirments when it comes to the heart and mind of children and the problem is I can see loving reason on both sides. Religion is a strong factor in children's lives and a loving family attending church seems to be one of the strongest links to morality.

I would think though by the time a child is collage age their strong moral upbinging would allow them to become exposed to other influences but then that is me and I guess really anyone can read on their own what the will so Ok Mary yep I would have to agree with you. I must say Requirment is almost like a toreador's red cape to censorship isn't it?

Ok Ed brought this attention of all the discssion leaders and suggests a diologue and Charles found the clickable that I've copied - Safire's "Besotted with Potter"

Not only let's have your thoughts but, if possible, would you refer to the part of the book that says what you are supporting??

Oh dear - Yes, obviously my rankles are clanking, so I just retracted what I had posted and will try to stay neutral until y'all have had your say.

English is a requirement for graduation at most Canadian Universities. There are usually two courses offered. One at Brock is English 101 and it is a survey course. The other is English as a second language for foreign students or those who could not pass an english course. English 101 is very heavy in terms of reading.

However the students were advised the first week would be spent on the Old Testament and they could abscent themselves should they feel uncomfortable. There was even a special pamphlet to explain why the Old Testament was to be studied. Certainly it was made clear that the book was not to be on the first semester exam.

I felt very badly, the Prof didn't he just shook his head. He had been put through so much by those three mature students. Oh well their loss it was a great help to me personally to have studied it.

Having clicked all i can say is......Now, i've been put in my place.

)

William Safire is one of those New York Op Ed writers who must show his contempt for us mere mortals in disdaining our reading matter. Never mind that many of us are as well versed in the classics as he. Well, as my grandmother used to say, "To each his own, said the old lady as she kissed the cow". Sue

I'll have to remember that one.

)

Great, Sue and Idris, y'all dismissed Safire easily and with the side look glance his elitest opinion deserved! Seems to me he must have missed a lot while reading or is just not connected with todays issues of working as a team, thinking that what we desire will make us happy or recognizing our parant's love within our own character just to name a few themes we have discussed.

Safire is easy to dismiss, and has always needed to be. Yet, every viewpoint important and necessary, and I thank you for the opportunity to read that one.

PEOPLE 12/31/99 has interesting article and picture on page 87. "all but 4 of 49" 5th graders @ N.Y. City's Hunter College Elementary have read all 3 books at publication of this article. I presume 49 out of 49 have by now. About the books being banned, Rowling is quoted thus: "Children totally recognize this as an imaginary world, and I think it's a very moral world." I think so, too. She also says that the last word in the last paragraph of the last chapter in the 7th and last book is, unless she rewrites, "scar."

When I first heard Rowlings on TV state that 1 of the main characters will die, I immediately assumed which. Now I have taken the Harry Potter Tour offered above and am feeling confirmed in my guess.

Idris, I am now feeling sorry for that Professor as well. The plan for that course sounds More than fair, just, reasonable and considerate. The 3 sound like pushy zealots for a cause, rather than curious persons out to Learn.

It caused much trouble MaryPage. As a mature student myself they wanted me to join them in their protest march to the President of the university's office. I said no and explained my reasons. They were more than upset with me. I felt they were wrong for all of the reasons mentioned above plus the fact that most of the students knew little if anything about the bible as literature or otherwise. For this reason, i felt they needed the opportunity to attend the classes and seminars over the week to at least get an idea of what some of the works were about. That year it was included, but it is no longer. (heavy sigh)

Dang, my scanner and printer are at war! I had to intercede and of course, the printer won! I have in front of me an interview with Ms. Rowling while she was in DC. I think it would be of interest. I searched for it on-line without success. Suffer through my typing! And 'purple' prose! I find the very last line quite curious...

HARRY POTTER AUTHOR: 'I BELIEVE IN GOD, NOT MAGIC'

"I believe in God, not magic, said JK Rowling, author of.........
During a US book tour stop in Washington, Rowling discussed the nature of evil, censorship and faith, among other things.
The 3 HP books, about a young wizard's adventures have caused a sensation in the publishing world....
Some parents have wondered whether the setting of the books and their dealing with witchcraft makes for wholesome reading.
'I personally think they are moral books,' said Rowling. 'I absolutely agree that you have the right to determine what your child reads, but I don't think that anyone has the right to determine what other people's children read.'
In discussing the evil Voldemort, Rowling said,' (other than those) who are mentally ill and not responsible for their actions, evil will be the result of very poor choices and possibly insufficient bravery to take the right path. And that's what I'm attempting to show with my villain. Here is someone who had choices - he had a great deal of natural talent which he's abusing, he's totally self-serving, but he could have gone a different way.'
'That is supposed to be contrasted quite strongly with Harry, who has come from an equally difficult start in life, but who consistently tries to make the right choices. Sometimes he fails'
Rowling has drawn criticism for characterizing Harry with human failings, but, she says, he is a human child. 'I want to show that (he's human); I want him to sometimes make mistakes...But he is generally acting with the best of intentions.'

'So far, none of her bad characters has decided to reform, but Rowling hints that in future books there will be themes of redemption. 'You will see redemption and you will see the other side as well, people struggling to the right thing who do not.
Some of the main characters are based on real people. Harry's friend Hermione Granger is modeled after the author herself, while Ron Weasley, Harry's best friend, is based on Rowling's best friend and her daughter's godfather, Sean Harris, described by Rowling as a 'committed Catholic.'
R. is planning to write a total of seven books - one for each year that Harry is at wizards' school. She is committed to have the entire series remain appropriate for age 9 and up.
'Harry will grow older, and I hope grow older plausibly. I do have a problem with treating a 16 yr. old character as though he were pre-pubescent.'
Describing future books in the series, R. said, 'the books will become darker, in the sense that you feel more palpable menace from Lord Voldemort.' But, she said, 'I'm not about to write something that is doom and gloom from beginning to end; that would depress me.'
In describing her personal beliefs, Rowling said, 'I believe in God, not magic. I don't think children will be seriously disappointed to hear that I don't believe in magic. I do have doubts, that just goes along with being me. Sometimes faith is trusting that faith will return.'

So glad you did not scrub your bathrooms! Wonderful of you to take the trouble to serve us that piece. Interesting to hear others report that groups who are fighting to ban these books are peopled with persons who admit they have not read them first, and further admit they have No Intentions of reading them! I might as well decide the dazzling sunshine outside means I can put on my bikini and sally forth! Well, I do not own a bikini (never have) and there is a below zero wind chill. But my point is: sunshine is to warm as Wizard is to Ban The Book!

Poor writer that i am, i write fae tales. I know fae do not exist except in the world i have made through my stories. A place of love and beauty. I began the tales because i was ill and needed to explore this part of me. Now, they make other people happy too. I see no harm in it as long as i/we realize they are imaginary.

I do have a neighbour with three young girls. She will not let them go to my webpage because she believes "fae" are things of the devil. No, she has not read my tales.

That fairy tales became tools of the devil and satan, both of whom are also figments of our imaginations? How did the one myth come to hold sway over the other? Especially when goose stepping around the globe, pointing fingers and shouting "WORK OF THE DEVIL!" makes for so much unhappiness and lovely tales of lands of make believe enchant endless generations of children.

Do you remember, wasn't it Robert Louis Stevenson's book of poems, a poem about The Land of Counterpane? A little boy was sick in bed and he had an imaginary world going on on top of his bedspread, to keep him happy and occupied while feeling quite dreadful and being confined. When I was little, I can remember being quite, quite sick and confined to bed several times and playing just such games; even with cracks in the ceiling! I always identified with that poem.

I have been to Children's Publishers site were they state no sugary sweet stories and nothing that does not exist in reality. So, this is what is required by many such book and magazine publishers.

Quite frankly i don't care what they want or don't want. Children still need stories of beauty of nature, acceptance of self and love of others. Three cheers for JKR.

Hip! Hip! Hurrah!

And a 21 gun salute for Idris O'Neill!

I really appreciate the time you've taken to retype and post this article, Joan. There were many good points which of course won't reach those close-minded individuals who refuse to read and see what all the fuss is about.

This passage impressed me the most:

'I personally think they are moral books,' said Rowling. 'I absolutely agree that you have the right to determine what your child reads, but I don't think that anyone has the right to determine what other people's children read.'

Isn't this the crux of the censorship matter? We do have the right to protect our own children from things we believe to be harmful. In my case, it was excessive, gratuitous violence, especially toward women, children, and animals. I do wish that those types of television programs would be aired at a later hour, but I understand that people can choose to turn the television off. I did.

However, reading is a different matter entirely. For the most part it is done individually. The plot, theme, meaning, characterization the reader perceives depends on the experience he/she brings to the reading. Imagination plays a huge part in the enjoyment of the reader. To ban a book because it is offensive to a few means deprivation for many. Sue

I totally agree with you Sue.

)

We always have the option of saying, no thank you.

No time today - can't pull up a chair, just sticking my nose in to say Hay and also share this site emailed to me by Pat where Rowlings did receive an award in Children's Lit. - Carnegie Medal

Thanks Joan for sharing and Typing all that out - grand of you!

Thanks too, Joan for that Interview with Rowling... The posts here are very interesting... I find I agree with most of what is said about children and reading... How will they learn to chose what literature is best?

Learning to make good choices and that includes literature as well as all other parts of their lives.. is what education is about.

To tell you the truth when my children were tiny i read them good books. I put my voice on tape reading their favourite books. We made time for books. Once they reached school...both of them were reading and i don't remember teaching them how to do it.

My son suddenly didn't want to read anymore...except junk. Mad books and magazines. I said nothing...he was at least still reading. He found the Usula K. LeGuin series of books and began to be a great reader again. My children are now well educated and have know more about literature than i will ever know.

The point is they will finally read good books and you won't have to ask them to ...they will just love them.

I did not have books when i was a child nor was i read to. Maybe that is why i felt so strongly that i wanted them to learn not only to read but love reading and what it would teach them.

Pat W----I agree. And mind control is a very bad educational idea. Not pedagogically sound. Plus, in the long run, it doesn't work.

Maryal

Somehow I have a hard time discussing books. I love to read, actually just about ANYTHING! Most of the time I will read a book just once, very seldom more then once. Some trashy books, if they are well written, can keep me reading until the early morning hours.

But discussing books? Not really. I understand them the way I understand it, and I don't think that I need another 's point of view. Not with every book, of course, but most.

I read a few comments on the HP book that just finished. Mostly, I don't try to analyze - who could be meant by what? I just enjoy them. But that is not everybody's take on things.

Well, if a book can paint a picture for me, I am happy. It's not TV where there is only one view - their's. With books I make my own pictures, - maybe that is the reason I don't want discussions about it. It may ruin my picture.

Helen----Sort of like when a movie is made of a book you have read?

Pretty much. But I can see why that happens. When one is writing for a lot of people and there are only 2 hours available, much will have to go by the wayside. It is almost always a disapointment.

Poetry is much more dependent on language. Much fewer words will have to paint the picture. And carry the thought as well as the emotion. Very enjoyable at times.

Poetry in translations suffers miserably.

Can we save and create a link to the interview and use it during the next discussion? Also I hope this is not posting twice as I hit some button on my computer but I also wonder did anyone take that idea of creating a SeniorNet award for Harry Potter seriously? In fact, that idea might be nice for all the authors whose work we discuss on Books and LIterature.

Twinkle, I took it seriously, but was uncertain how to respond. I was afraid of getting volunteered, and, frankly, I have too much on my plate right now! But I think an award is a marvelous idea. Having read ALL THREE books and panting for the next, I am a serious fan.

Well Twinklewhat can I say - it appears that in order to have any presentation from SeniorNet we would have to have a consensus or agreement to our admiration for an author's work. Well, is seems that here among our SeniorNet Readers we have some that agree with old Billy Safire...!

What we could do is those of us that are reading and enjoying and seeing as Katie Jacques posted:

Katie Jaques 1/30 Well, I don't think ol' Bill gets Harry Potter. Which is probably not surprising, since he doesn't seem to get Oz either. The Wizard is NOT about "heartlessness, mindlessness and cowardice." It's about the opposites of all three. The whole point is that each character thinks he lacks, and yearns to receive, the very attribute that he already possesses most abundantly. That's why the fake Wizard (who instantly perceives the truth about them) satisfies their requests so easily. He gives them permission to believe in themselves.

Whether Harry Potter will stand the test of time remains to be seen. I'd be more inclined to compare it with Tolkien than with Baum or Carroll. Obviously Harry Potter is less complex than Tolkien, but it does create an internally consistent, imaginary world, peoples it with interesting characters, and ultimately deals with the conflict between good and evil.

We could, as a group in the Harry Potter reading discussion of SeniorNet Books & Literature, agree on some wording and mail something or each of us, as individuals, could write and mention how we are reading and getting so much out of the books etc...There is both the USA and the UK publishers that we could mail to be passed along to Ms. Rowlings.

If you have any suggestions along these lines let's hear them and if we go forward and we want to agree on some verbage we could put it together or for that matter we could all write something individually - mail it to me and then I would Fed Ex a package of our notes to her in care of the publishers.