Adelante!

Thank you.

plato-dialogues.org/tools/greece.htm

http://www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/knossos/knossos.html

What a great book to reread! I think I first read it in the early 60s.

http://www.god-goddess.com/greek-gods-poseidon.html

http://www.greekmythology.com/

http://www.templeapollo.com/index.html

http://www.homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Delphi.html

" ...The sea was calm; as one looked down, it drowned the eye like a second zenith, but bluer stll; bluer than lapis, or sapphire, or whatever flower is bluest; and then again, in the dark clear shadows round the deep roots of the rocks, green and grape-purple, like the ring-dove's sheen. ..."

Read it aloud and capture the sensuous richness of the sound! =======================

Incidentally, If any of you should experience a problem with posting e.g. or anything else of a technical nature, please let me know and I will ask for help from one of our competent techies.

Just that has happened to one of our dear friends from the "Mythology " folder who had counted on being here but suddenly can't register. I am confident that she will receive prompt help.

========================

The suggested reading schedule will appear in my next post.

In my earlier post, there was a (cartoon-like) link to the Theseus myth:

mythweb

Bullfinch, a more serious link, covers the Theseus myth, plus a great deal more!

Bullfinch Mythology

BTW, Troizen is Renault's own alternative spelling for Troezen , a tow with a tangled mythological history.

Minos was the powerful King of Crete. Poseidon had given him a beautiful bull so that Minos should sacrifice it for him. But Minos could not bear to slay it and kept the beautiful bull for himself instead.

To punish him, Poseidon made Pasiphaë, Minos' wife, fall madly in love with the bull. Their offspring was a monster, half bull, half human, called the Minotaur. Minos did not have him killed after birth but a place of confinement was built for him by the architect and inventor Daedalus = the Labyrinth, famous throughout the ancient world.

Years before Theseus arrived in Athens, a terrible misfortune happened there. While Androgeous, King Minos' only son, was visiting the King of Athens, the latter, King Aigeus, sent his guest on an expedition of great peril -- to kill a dangerous bull. But the bull killed Androgeus.

Minos swiftly invaded the country, captured Athens amd threatened to raze the city, unless every nine years the people would send him a tribute of seven maidens and seven youths. Once in Crete, they were given to the Minotaur to devour.

When we discussed "Mythology", we dwelled on the hated figure of Medea, and specifically on the role she had played earlier in her life in the Argonauts' search for the Golden Fleece. She became Jason's companion and had two sons with him. Yet, despite everything she had done for him, he pushed her aside and turned his attention to another woman.

Medea, a sorceress, made a dress for the new bride, and when the bride put it on, the dress burst into flames, suffocating her. To further punish Jason, Medea killed their two sons and then escaped heavenward on a chariot drawn by dragons.

Medea's murder of her own children gave us pause and we wondered about present-day Medeas.

Forgive me if I am redundant; I merely wanted to refer to the historical antecedents in case they were needed.

More later.

Regarding moira: the Greeks saw their moira personified by THE FATES, Moirae in Greek, Parcae in Latin, who, the Greek historian Hesiod says, "give to men at birth evil and good to have. There were three, Clotho, the Spinner, who spun the thread of life; Lachesis, the Disposer of Lots, who assigned to each man his destiny; Atropos, she who could not be turned, who carried 'the abhorrèd shears' and cut the thread at death."
(from Edith Hamilton's Mythology , pg. 49).

What a brilliant evocation, what vivid images of scenery, the exterior and interior design of the palaces in Eleusis and in Athens, the battle gear of the men, their weapons, the combat scenes, and the victorious return with "the wagons of the spoil, the women and the herded cattle." ! (pg. 113).

if we were to accept ourselves as we are and be content, wouldn't we voluntarily stay within boundaries of our own making?

Why not aim higher, go farther, reach for the impossible dream?

More comments on SCRAWLER's question, anyone?

Good night.

People began to wonder about their creation, birth and death, the elementary forces of nature, sun, moon, the stars, storms, floods. The necessity of water, the power of fire.

Some men- usually men rather than women- overcame disaster more quickly, more cleverly than others. There were followers and leaders early on in the continuous battle for survival, and for land to grow crops for food.

The Greeks created and believed in a large number of deities to whom they prayed for their every physical need. DEMETER was the Goddess of the Corn, for example. You recall that, while she searched the earth for her daughter Persephone, she neglected her duties, and the land fell barren ----(an early "explantion" for the change of seasons?).

It is Renault's singular achievement to have brought to life for the contemporary reader in the form of a novel events which MAY have taken place but which cannot be proven to have happened, or in quite that way.

With expansion came territorial conflicts, the desire, then the need to conquer, or be subjugated in turn. There were early heroes, some superheroes, whose deeds were superhuman, all transmitted in oral tradition, before writing and expression in art.

Twelve hundred years separate the first writers through whom the myths have come down to us from the last . Greek and Roman mythology is quite generally supposed to show us the way the human race thought and felt untold ages ago. The real interest in the myths is that they lead us back to a time when the world was young and people had a connection with the earth, with trees and seas and flowers and hills ...

The Greeks felt they knew just what the divine inhabitants of Olympus did there, what they ate and drank and where they had their banquets. They were to be feared because they were powerful and could be dangerous when angry. Temples were built to them and sacrifices offered by priestesses. The Greeks created their gods in their own image, i.e. fully human in every respect.

Renault has built on the myth of Theseus and enlivened it, and I believe she intended her books to be read as a re-enactment, a fantastic adventure.

In that spirit let us continue reading and accompany Theseus and the youths on their voyage to Crete and see what awaits them there, how they are received, where they are housed, whom and what they find there. Let us be silent observers and virtual participants.

Thank you, SCRAWLER, for sharing your personal experiences with us. Your contributions are always pertinent as well as interesting. It is very late again and I will have to continue this post in the morning.

One God, to many scholars, is an integral part of the development of human society, as explained in the outstanding book Guns, Germs, and Steel by J. Diamond.

The multiple gods of the Greeks, however, were not strictly polytheism, because Zeus was the most powerful, as well exemplified in the Iliad. Although Athena and Hera fought over the Trojan war heros, they never were able to go against the wishes of Zeus.

As human society developed from clans (extended families) to kingdoms or entities led by princes, religions appeared in many forms. In some cases it was an established state religion, as in Egypt; in the case of Jews in the region of modern Israel, it was a state where the judges were the high rabbis (High Priests), and the king would never go against their wishes; these were the times of King David or King Solomon, not modern Palestine, or Israel.

Thus Theseus is answering the demands of the gods just as a modern soldier prays with an army chaplain before turning toward the front lines and advancing into battle.

Marne: May I disagree with your comment above?
I don't think the women were foreseeing the future in some of your examples. I think the author was endowing the characters with that ability to further the story-line. The Iliad is very-long, outstanding fiction, not unlike the long novels of Dickens. It is not history.
So when Achilles mother forecasts his death, so that he himself speaks of his certain death in battle, it is a wonderful plot devise, it is not a fact of history.

On another subject, has everyone noted how often in the myths the outstanding children are the sons of gods: Perseus, son of Danae, for example; also, Theseus in the legend, not in this novel. Modern women who will not name the father of their children can't get away with this, can they? Do some wish that they could?

Marni: I know that you consider King Must Die as fiction, but I was trying to emphasize that the Iliad is actually fiction, not history. That is true although archeologists have found ancient Troy.
Most of the places Theseus visits are real places, also.
But the Renault version of the bull dancers is so very vivid that we could easily imagine those events taking place, events which are all the creation of a most gifted novelist!

Stigler: That was a timely reminder that the family line is through the mother in American Indians. This is comparable to time of the the Greeks about which we are reading, where the mother could claim anyone as the father, even one of the gods. In Hamilton's myths, there is no question that King Aegeus is his father, not anyone else, after the special sword is shown to the king. The only role Theseus' mother had was to tell her
son when he was old enough to lift the stone. Her role was not to name the true father.

P.S. This afternoon I attended a luncheon of the Women's Guild of my church. One of the women asked me what I was currently reading. Of course I mentioned "our" book. She delightedly exclaimed, "Oh my, I have read all of Renault's books when I was in high school!"

Omens
-- Omens and oracles were of paramount importance for the Greeks. Temples were built to individual gods, Apollo for example, the most famouns in Delphi. Priestesses in trance would convey a message to the suppliants who came from all over the known world.
But don't modern people still hold superstitions?

-- Intrigues and treachery
The evil plans hatched by the Queen of Eleusis and Xanthos; the complicity of Medea. It was she who convinced Ageus that Kerkyron of Eleusis was out to take his place on the throne, it was her idea to poison him.

-- From reading between Theseus' lines the reader can well imagine that the relationship between father and son cannot have been all smooth and easy, and how could it have been otherwise in their circumstances? Surely there was affection, though.

-- As young as he is, Theseus displays a great deal of wisdom and diplomacy and goes about doing things in Eleusis (later) as he sees fit without asking for approval before or after. First though he brings the Eleusinians to Athens, a thousand strong, and they fight the Pallantids alongside the Athenians and share the spoils, slaves and women included.

-- We might keep in mind Medea's prophesy for Theseus (pg. 130) ...

-- The size of the kingdom is doubled after the war. But when Theseus mentions the possibility of a loose alliance, a sharing of common interests, with the neighboring "men of good blood", the idea falls on deaf ears.

Twice we are told in this chapter that Aegeus was "tight-fisted", but Renault does not give us proof, nor an antecedent.

She also changes the legend of Medea to suit the purposes of this novel, which, of course is her prerogative.

I wonder about the terms "barons" and especially "gentleman" - the latter sounds too British and IMHO more than a little incongruent for Greek heroes.

Please comment at your leisure.

to be continued

The signing took place on April 8, 1904, and the centenary in 2004 was greeted in France with the words "Voilà cent ans qu'on s'entend", freely translated as "There we are, one hundred years of understanding each other ".

We have had two world wars since.
Then came the Cold War- now ended, with the U.S. the only remaining superpower, and currently we are involved in a War against Terror, and our men and women are in Afghanistan and Iraq.

There are countries in the world where the pull of the clans still predominates.

Can two idealogies coexist without leading to war or discontent?

As for "discontent", if the discontent of individuals is meant, that, I fear, matters very little in the scheme of things.

My answer to the question has to be: No, not from my experience.

P.S. I'd like to add that, as you probably now, Europe has created a World Court, located in Brussels, Belgium, where war criminals, like Serbian Milosevic, are currently being prosecuted.
The United States has refused to become a member of that Court.

We have to DO good so that it BE in the world, even though the world is increasingly hostile.

Cranes

The group was formed many years ago as one of several interest groups of our local branch of the American Association of University Women (AAUW), an organization to which I have belonged since the nineteen sixties. (I cofounded the local branch in 1974.)

MARNI, yes, Band of Brothers is a most fitting term. The team was unusual, indeed extraordinary, because they had pledged themselves to each other. Everyone was essential, and indispensable. Many were the occasions, Theseus says, when one came to the rescue of another in the ring at a crucial time. Each Crane was every bit as brave as Theseus; they trusted one another and kept the confidences, which Theseus began to share with them, strictly to themselves:
e.g. the small but growing arsenal of spears and javelins Theseus secretly hoarded, they were stored in the girls' quarters. That bolstered their hopes not only for survival but for escape.

Renault gives the legend a different twist making the Minotaur human: monstrous, but human, and names him Asterion. In the old Greek myth the Minotaur has no name and is half man half bull, the offspring of Poseidon (in the guise of a bull) and King Minos' wife, Ariadne's mother.

But Renault's description, narrated in Theseus' voice, is always dazzling, for example the description of the endless passageways of the Labyrinth, an enormous place built in tiers without walls, open to the sea and to the skies; the layout of the shrine to the goddess; and the banquets of the elite.

At one of them, summoned by Asterion, Theseus performs a ballad accompanying himself on the lyre. He does so well that the guests are highly pleased, but Asterion had intended to humiliate Theseus, not anticipating that Theseus could perform in the vein of a bard, since in Crete the role of entertaining guests fell to servants.

Yes, GOSSETT, you are absolutely right about Hector's last words. His wife, Andromache, is to me one of the most tragic figures in mythology. Forgive me for saying so, but I always liked Hector better than Achilles, who rather petulantly wasted much time before finally coming around. Just my humble opinion.

More later on Theseus' encounter with Ariadne.

Axe to kill the minotaur

The reference also gives the Greek language origin, which is always interesting, and a picture
of an axe archeologists found on Crete.

Renault leaves us wondering. But it looks like one more king, or male leader of some sort, who must die.

We always hear about the Romans throwing the Christians to the lions, but the Greeks seem to have loved killing off their own leaders even more. I guess I cannot begin to figure out how a cult of man-killing evolved.
Actually, in France and England, during the years the religion of the Druids was dominant, human sacrifice was a normal religious ritual.
Can anyone elaborate about what was going on in these religions? I know they said the gods "demanded" sacrifice, but it's hard to understand.

As I prepare for an overview of the book, your thoughts and impressions will be welcome and appreciated. Thank you.

Do we really believe that this same unpolished, socially inexperieced, indeed oftn insecure young man wrote those extravagantly beautiful, often limpid, descriptions?

Renault favored first-person narration. But therein lied a danger, I submit:
We see all the characters in this novel through Theseus' eyes, in his perception.
Can we really rely on him?
How can he possibly describe what another character felt?

As I've said already, the terms "gentleman", "baron", and "gentlemanly behavior" struck me as incongruent, coming from Theseus' voice.
The great strength of the book is in the writing, I believe. Rereading shows many, many ancillary tidbits, perhaps at first overlooked, and small epiphanies.

More tomorrow, on our last scheduled day.

SCRAWLER, I detect a note of disappointment in the last sentence of # 204.
The "more" you had expected from this book might possibly be found in the sequel, but there is no guarantee.
Sometimes we feel frustrated with the ending of a book, or dissatisfied with the plot, or all of it. Not every reader will feel the same way about any given book. But the joint venture is worth it, in most cases, I believe.

We have come to the end of our journey. I have thoroughly enjoyed the pleasure of your company on the way, your feedback and insights. I hope to see you in another discussion in B&L.

My gratitude to each and everyone of you,
Traude