Kite Runner ~ Khaled Hosseini ~ 4/05 ~ Read Aroun Export

Read Around The World - Stop I: Afghanistan!

Kite Runner :

From the final days of Afghanistan’s monarchy to the atrocities of the present, The Kite Runner is the unforgettable, heartbreaking story of the unlikely friendship between a wealthy boy and the son of his father’s servant. - from the Publisher

FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION

What themes ~ Father-son, self-discovery, tradition, loyalty, etc.—recur throughout the book? How does the author use these themes? Do they work?

In what way are the characters a metaphor to Afghan history? How is Sohrab another homeless Hazara orphan with no choices, no place to go, offering a weary, quiet surrender, yearning for his old life a metaphor to Afghanistan?

What is a pakol and who is the "Lion of Panjsher?" Why does the author include his name in the story?

How does the arrangement of the book contribute to themes or symbols? How did the author's use of Flashbacks affect your ability to see the author's theme? Why do you think the author chose to write the book from Amir's point of view? What other character's point of view would you have liked to know?

Both his father and his mother are a guide towards Amir's spiritual quest. Why did the author wait till chapter twenty to tell Amir and the reader about his mother?

Pomegranate is mentioned four times in the Koran. Amir carved on a Pomegranate tree, "Amir and Hassan. The Sultans of Kabul." What is a Sultan? What is the author suggesting by choosing to include in the story the expression of being Sultans particularly carved on the Pomegranate tree? What did Hassan mean when he wrote in his letter "The Pomegranate tree hadn't borne fruit in years."

The setting in this story is important to the author. How does the author present a world view that engages those who are not intimate with the culture of Afghanistan? Was it successful?

What is the great strength — or the most noticeable weakness — of the book?

In these chapters, there are many scenes with Blood, from Rahim's cough to Amir's broken body. Absolving one's sins through the blood of another is not found in the Koran which only demands a sacrifice of one's personal willingness to submit one's ego and individual will to Allah. What is the blood in each scene really alluding?

While in the hospital, Amir has a dream about his father wrestling a bear: "They role over a patch of grass, man and beast...they fall to the ground with a loud thud and Baba is sitting on the bear's chest, his fingers digging in its snout. He looks up at me, and I see. He's me. I am wrestling the bear." Why is this dream so important at this point in the story? What does this dream finally help Amir realize?

Discussion Schedule:

April 1-7: Chapters 1-9, pages 1-109 (pb)
April 8-14: Chapters 10-16, pages 110-213
April 15-21: Chapters 17-23, pages 214-310
April 22-27: Chapters 24-25: pages 311-end

Discussion Leader: Barbara St. Aubrey
CLICK HERE for the post that BEGINS THE DISCUSSION of KITE RUNNER

URLs for Further Reading [supplied by our readers]

B&N Bookstore | Books Main Page | Suggest a Book for Discussion
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Well a bright good morning to all of you here, in our first new book club in SeniorNet's Books & Literature!

Our Read Around the World is just getting off the ground and your participation is eagerly solicited.

Our initial selection will be The Kite Runner by Khaled Hosseini, and is about the country of Afghanistan, and a whole lot more.

We will begin on April 1, and you need not have read the entire book to participate, we will divide the book into 4ths and discuss the first 4th in the first week. Sort of a group giant brain collective reading experience.

Kite Runner is a book that everybody is talking about, and we are very pleased to be able to offer it here in SeniorNet's Books, and to hear our first voice from around the world, this time originating in Afghanistan, a country about which I know nothing.

Do join us and post here if you intend to participate, as always we require a quorum in order to schedule a reading.

I am very excited about this book club and welcome you all! Does anybody know how to say Welcome or hello in Afghanistani?

Welcome!! Please join us, do sign in and let's see if we can get up a quorum!

I have checked with my library and am on the list for Kite Runner but its a long list. Is is available in PBK yet?? I do want to be part of this discussion but will be gone April 6 thru 10. So, sign me up!

YAY, Ann! Yes, it's available in paperback, compact disk, audio and hardcover: Kite Runner. Just put this in the heading, it's a 2004 paperback, should not be too hard to find.

See you all tomorrow, when I hope to find a CROWD here, I'm very interested to begin this book!

Hi, Ginny, count me in.

I will be here Ginny.

Looking forward to reading this book.

Joan Grimes

Ah. HERE you are.

OK, I'm throwing my hat in the ring (or would if I could find the dang thing -- the hat, not the ring).

Could someone explain this "quorum" thing to me? How many participants constitute a "quorum" in these parts? Five? Ten? Fifty-five?

I'm going tomorrow to Barnes & Noble. I hope they have the book and that it's not too expensive. This should be fun.

Karmie

Well I have my e-mail from Borders with my 25% Off discount coupon so it appears a foray up to Borders is on my to do list.

Kites - oh the nightmares I had for years as a kid over kites - we lived near a good size hill and we kids all made our kites from newspaper on sticks we saved year after year from the first kite that was ever bought in the family. Because of the hill we ran up the hill and the kite was immediately elevated and so our big deal was getting it high enough quickly so the strings did not tangle with another kite - a ball of string was about 400 feet and our Dads would be the ones who spent their lunch pennies and brought home in their pockets another ball of string for us - one year I had 5 balls of string so that the kite was so high you could hardly see it.

This was a time when the roads where we lived were being tarred by the WPA and somehow I had these nightmares where I woke up, sat straight up, wide eyed, sweating because of dreaming about hundreds of tarred newspapers flying all mish mash as flying free newspaper can look - all coming up the hill out of the sky at me - Black, oily in various shapes that loose crumply read newspaper take on - worse than a flock of crows - it still gives me a jolt thinking of those dreams.

We have this grand kite flying contest every year at the big Zilker park - kites from all over the world - funny thing - I never go...!

Just following the kite string to get here, nice and early ...

So please count me in.

(I read the book last year, but will not give away anything in advance!)

Salaam! You say hello in Dari, the main Afghan dialect of Farsi (there are others), the same way you do in the Middle East, with the greeting, "Salaam." When Afghan Tajiks answer the phone, they say "Bally. Salaam." Which is "Yes. Hello."

Tajiks are the Dari-speaking peoples of Afghanistan and Tajikistan and some in Iran, also. They're not Arabs. Afghanistan is in South Asia, not the Middle East (although some dictionaries and encyclopedia will argue this, if you know Middle Easterners and South Asians, you see that the Afghans are culturally more akin to the latter in many ways). Persian is not Arabic. The people of Afghanistan are properly called Afghans, although this is changing with the frequent improper use of 'Afghanis.' Afghanis are the monetary unit of Afghanistan. The majority ethnic group in Afghanistan is the Pashtuns, then the Tajiks, then various other groups. The two main languages are Dari and Pashto, a dialect of Urdu, which is a dialect of Hindi. Most Afghans are Moslem, almost 100%. My family are suni--I think this is the majority. There are some other groups. My family who lived in Afghanistan long ago always knew Jews who lived in Kabul. There are also descendents of the Mongols who live in Afghanistan. The Taliban were Pashtuns.

Oh, I've been wanting to read this for a while. I have family who have immigrated to America from Afghanistan, and I've grown up around Afghans all of my adult life, since I was about 12.

Afghans culturally are somewhat unique in that they spend almost every moment of their life with other people, living, working, eating, sleeping with other Afghans. It is very difficult for Americans to gather a foot in this culture. When Americans marry Afghans, as happened in my family, it can be very difficult to adjust. However, in my family's case, we seemed to have worked it out quite well, because the Afghan's are accepting of our weirdness in spending time alone, and we have adjusted to their never spending time alone. Also, because my family is Russian American from Siberia and Mongols, we eat similar foods.

I never thought of the Afghans as unique, though, until just the past few years when they came into the news because of the world situations. When you live around something all your life, you sometimes don't even see it.

Afghan food is quite good, and one of their best dishes that Americans love is shish-kabob. They also commonly eat a dish called palaal, which is spiced rice cooked brown, with chicken or lamb or duck, and raisons and carrots. The bread is naan, like that served in Pakistan, but Afghans eat whole-wheat and a variety of naans, although usually plain white. They eat rice with every meal. Dessert is tea and sugared almonds, dates stuffed with walnuts, and fruit, or Afghan cookie bread. Afghans love melon. Afghan melon is grown in the Central Valley of California these days for the huge population that lives in California. It is very bland and crispy. I'm used to eating it, but it won't appeal to many Westerners. Afghans eat watermelon as dessert with most meals.

I know a lot about Afghans, but I don't know anything from studying Afghan culture, just from what I have experienced in my own family. However, I have hundreds of Afghans at hand to ask if anyone has any burning questions. I don't know many Pashtuns, though, mostly Tajiks.

Kleo

Kleo - great post. What interesting tidbits. Thanks for the info.

Kathy

Welcome, Joan, Kevin, Karmie, Barbara, Mippy, Kathy, and Kleo! We are delighted to see you here as we now have a quorum (minimum number of participants we need, Kevin, in order to proceed). We don't like to commit without a minimum number and that number has to be 2 others than the Discussion Leader but is really up to the person leading the group. Now that we're a definite go, people CAN begin safely buying (for those who like to buy their books) or getting them from the library, etc.

This book in yesterday's New York Times was the #1 bestseller in paperback. I hope to pick it up today.

Kleo, Salaam! I just saw Bombay Dreams again and one of the songs is Salaam, Bombay! Do they say that in Mumbai too, in India? And OH, naan? I absolutely love naan, again an Indian bread, too, surely? So what's the connection between those two cultures?

I took a course at Oxford on the Decline and Fall of the British Empire in India and one of the students, a young graduate student (who was taking the course out of interest, not for credit), whose name was Anjali, with whom I still correspond, told us her father's father was in charge of the trains when East Pakistan was created and about the absolute horror that her father remembered which resulted. It was really something to have the eye witness accounts from THAT one voice and that perspective, and his perspective WAS quite different from what appeared to be the majority in that vast country. That's what I like about hearing all voices, you get a better picture, from the eyes of others.

What fascinating facts, I agree, Kathy, and it will really be nice to have some people of Afghanistan descent to ASK, welcome to the discussion and thank you for that fascinating information and background!

One thing we might want to consider as we go as different themes arise, is we will also want to see what aspects or elements in the text may be of universal experience, and how that experience differs from the way we see it, and the perspective of an Afghan (is the plural Afghani?) This is going to be wonderful! Many thanks! Real voices.

Barbara and the tar, bless your heart on the dreams. I loved those old tar roads, The tar bubbled up when it was hot. And you could make all sorts of little figures and things with it, I loved fooling around with tar (remember Br'er Rabbit and the tar baby?) (Just happened to realize I am probably scarred for life health wise because of fooling with it,) but did love it, I can see it now. The roads don't seem to bubble like they used to: I went out last summer to find some bubbling tar: nada.

So this discussion is off to a wonderful start!! Thank you all, and we can, if you so desire to address questions to some Afghans themselves, thanks to the courtesy of Kleo, now living in the US? And I can't think of how this could have started better!

Come one, come all, this one WILL be One for the Books!

from Alibris for $6.49+shp. It will be here by March 18th. I found new copies on several sites for $8.50+shp. Hmmmm! Looking forward to reading this title. As some of you know, in the Religion folder(no longer around) we have discussed many books about the Middle East but never a fiction title. This will be fun!!

Welcome, Ann, we are delighted to have you, too, and as you so wisely point out, this IS fiction, we will treat it like any other book of fiction and have all of this rich background, because I am sure we'll have a million questions, what a super experience awaits us!

Welcome, All!

Have wanted to read the book so am glad it has been selected. As I understand kite flying was banned by the Taliban.

Naan just means 'bread' in many languages. Indian bread is a bit like Afghan bread, although it tends to be lighter. I greet Indians in my neighborhood with, "Salaam," but I don't really know if this is Hindi or Urdu (the language of Pakistan) or anything, although they do respond, "Salaam." The connection between Indian culture and Afghan culture is that the people live in the same region and have the same general cultural heritage and many share a religion (they're mostly white folk who speak Aryan languages, many are Muslims, in other words).

Afghan and Indian languages are Aryan, or the Indo-Iranian subgroup of Indo-European languages. Sanskrit, Hindi, and Urdu being grouped together as Indo-Aryan and Dari and Pashto of Afghanistan being Iranian languages of the Indo-Iranian subgroup of the Indo-European languages.

One Afghan, two Afghans is for people. One Afghan, one American, two Afghans, two Americans, 100,000 Afghan Americans. One afghani, two afghanis, three afghanis if you are counting money in English in Afghanistan. Afghani is singular, like dollar, afghanis plural like dollars.

Just about everything but child rape and stupidity was banned by the Taliban. Fun is dangerous to totalitarian evil, especially such an exhilarating and liberating activity as flying a kite.

A couple of years ago I took two of my little Afghan cousins, about 6 and 8 at the time, birdwatching. It was a crisp and windy, grey day on the Bay, with lots of birds and salt wind and that stink of shallow water. The girls walked about with the wind thwapping their hair in their faces, holding their binoculars backwards looking at the ground while birds swooped by their heads, screaming with delight of everything. This too, was banned by the Taliban: the joy of being a child, a bird, a kite. How lucky they are to be born in America.

Afghans have an unparalleled joy for life--the Soviets tried to capture this, the Taliban tried to stomp it out.

Kleo

I'm here. I got my book yesterday, and I couldn't put it down -- I'm halfway through already. It is very readable and interesting.

I'm so glad Kleo is here, to share her reactions. We have to remember we could read a dozen different books about America, and get a dozen completely different pictures of what the United States is like, all true!! I'm sure the same is true for Aphganistan.

Now to get the book. I hear it's in paperback which is fortunate for me anyway. I came here from Joan's post in the Durant discussion which is currently interesting background for this discussion as well as visa versa.

wonderful posts so far. . . thank you Kleo for your input. . . Claire

JoanK said:

"We have to remember we could read a dozen different books about America, and get a dozen completely different pictures of what the United States is like, all true!! I'm sure the same is true for Aphganistan."

Yes, as I pointed out in my first post:

"I know a lot about Afghans, but I don't know anything from studying Afghan culture, just from what I have experienced in my own family. "

Also, I only know Afghan Tajiks--and Afghanistan is a culturally diverse country, with many different groups of people. I have never been to Afghanistan, although I have been invited to go this summer. My experience with Afghanistan is strictly American.

However, one interesting thing about the hospitality culture of the Middle East and South Asia is that a person who is familiar with any of the cultures will be a comfortable guest in any of the others. I know when I've tutored Slavs or East Asians, I've had to adjust anew to each different culture, Russians are not much like Poles in many ways, nor are Czechs like either of the first two. So many details with Koreans versus Japanese versus Chinese! But after growing up around Afghans when I first started tutoring Arabs and going to Arab homes, I was perfectly at ease in the surroundings, and interacting with the various family members. In fact, my first students gave me glowing references and told future students that I had tutored lots of Arabs before, thinking because I was so comfortable at their house, that I had been to many Arab homes (not true, only one, but it sure felt Afghan kicking my shoes off and hanging out in the kitchen with the women cooking).

Of course, there are also many drastic differences. When I went to see the movie Monsoon Wedding with my Mother we were rolling with laughter--it was very much like Afghan-American culture, and all the women smoked in the bathroom, then sprayed scent afterwards which drives my Mother insane! However, in most of India a dowry is paid by the bride's family to the groom's family. Afghanistan is a bride-price country--the groom's family pays for almost every aspect of the wedding, and generally gives money on top of that to the bride's family. Afghans could not imagine paying money to the groom's family. And I suspect Indians feel the other way.

I think it goes without saying that people are alike in many ways, and people are different in many ways.

But it is terrific fun to read and share a book that is about something one knows intimately, like I love reading the murder mysteries that take place in Berkeley. It would be nice to get an Afghan in here, also.

Kleo

It certainly will be a pleasure to join this discussion as it purports to be a lively and fast-moving one.

And, KLEO, it is interesting to read your comments about your family experiences. It appears we have had similar experiences, although my heritage is French/Irish/Persian. The Persian component is from Tehran and the Azerbaijan region of Iran with relatives in Afghanistan and India. Whereas you are familiar mostly with Tajiks, I'm more attuned to the Pashtun culture. As a former resident of the metropolitan Washington DC area for many years, I was able to enjoy the Persian/Afghan community there, as well as in my birth city of Los Angeles and another California site, San Francisco, for many years. I hope you'll be able to travel to Afghanistan. If so, you'll be absolutely overcome with hospitality (as you already well know). I traveled in the area some years ago and my son (a Special Forces Army Chaplain) returned from a five month tour last November. In an earlier posting in China in the mid-80's, I briefly visited Mongolia, but didn't spend enough time there to really get to know many Mongols or their culture.

GINNY - many thanks for heading up what will obviosuly be a very interesting discussion. I was sorry to hear that the Religious Books discussion has been abandoned, but this one should certainly bring pleasure to all the posters.

Mahlia

Thank you oleo for your insight into Afghanistan. I just love learning about cultures that I know nothing about and look at the similarities and/or differences to my American way of life. I'm particularly interested in what kind of life the women have.

I just got my book today at Barnes & Noble. It was on a bargain table just as I walked in the door. What a coincidence! By the way it was only $11 and change.

I haven't started reading yet as I'm in the middle of another book and hate to read more than one at a time. LOL I'll really be confused then. Do we have an "official" start time?

Karmie

I'm sorry about the spelling of your name. I had it right until I decided to spellcheck. Bad move.

Karmie

It's "Spell Czech!" This is the "International" thread, remember?

Anyway, I hate to be the clueless new guy all the time with my questions but bear with me for a while and I'll become the clueless old guy (uh... old as in "participating," not old as in -smobile).

My pregunta is: does this thread become the actual April Fool discussion of KITE RUNNER on 4/01, or will a new one be created on that auspicious day?

Dropped by B&N last night to pick up Kite Runner. They didn't have any - all their copies had been put on hold! So I ordered it online.

LOL @ Kevin. Tres amusant.

I am not sure how Ginny is going to handle it - if we start fresh or pick up here with the heading twicked - probably according to how many pre start day posts we rack up -

But a suggestion for what it is worth - seems to me we have two aspects to this discussion - not only the book as a piece of Literature but also, the wonders that some have already shared, about the culture, foods etc. What about having a second site that is linked to the book discussion where all the history, culture, dress, food, religon, links to photos etc. etc. that we will bang into while reading, be placed in that second discusssion, The anthology of anotations if you would...

And then keep the book discussion just that - a discussion of the how the place/setting furthers the plot, the characters and their growth or lack of - the point of view used to tell the story - the theme - the style, tone, motive the author is exploring that his choice of social and cultural context was best suited to tell his story.

BARBARA - good point, since I understand that there is a time limit on the book discussion. As we have found in The Story of Civilization (which has been exploring ISLAM in the historical context through the work of the authors Will and Ariel Durant) there is an enormous capacity for learning and sharing perceptions by Westerners unfamilair with the topic, which often creates diversions of thought not necessarily focused only on the authors' work. Therefore, having a secondary discussion which offers an opportunity to expand and delve further into the culture portrayed in Kite Runner would be helpful, as well as not limiting the learning experience of posters interested in continuing on the topic of Afghanistan, its people and cultures.

Salaam, Mahlia.

Are you saying the Iranians you know from Tehran are Pashtuns, not Persians? That's interesting. I only know a few Afghan Pashtuns, and some Pakistani ones, but didn't even know there was a significant Pashtun population in Tehran. Is there a large Pashtun population in Washington DC? My family live in the Bay Area, Los Angeles, Colorado, and greater Washington DC metropolitan area, in addition to Afghanistan and Pakistan, of course.

Barbara--I suspect it is hard to separate the two, after all, if the book is about the people of Afghanistan as this one is, then how do you discuss the book without discussing the culture? Or while separating the two? However, when the book is about the culture, I don't think one can separate the literature from its subject in such a manner.

In this case, also, when the book is in part used to introduce a foreign culture, as this one written in English about Afghans in American and Afghanistan, by an Afghan, understanding the culture is central to reading and discussing the book--that is, I believe, part of what the author is doing.

Still, I prefer to be on topic for a literary discussion. I don't think it is unreasonable to limit the discussion when it opens to the book. Afghan culture is huge and we won't get to all of it even if we only discuss what is represented in the book.

I think, as Mahlia points out, that it is easy to diverge from the book, when discussing something that one is not familiar with. I vote for just staying on topic, though, rather than two boards, as the other will wind up with literary stuff and this with unrelated cultural tidbits, and it may be hard to keep up, much less keep it straight.

Comments?

Kleo

PS Karma--I knew you spell-checked when I saw the 'oleo.'

Not as bad as my mistake. By the time I finish the book, I hope I'll know how to spell Afghanistan. (But I don't count on it. I often misspell my own name).

hmmm I hear you - what prompted the suggestion is when we read Five Quarters of the Orange food and recipes ran through the entire story - we had a separate linked discussion where conversation did not take place but, we all posted French recipes and other Kitchen tid bits including links to restaurants, art work etc. Since we had a gal who kept a French Kitchen in Canada reading with us she had good recipes to share -

I am also thinking of the many famous books published that an annotated version can be purchased - recently we did A Christmas Carol again the book has footnotes in the annotated version but we don't have footnotes in these discussion and there will be much culture, photos, religious practices etc. that will strengthen our understanding of the book that those reading will want to share. I just thought it could all be posted as a second discussion BUT not as a discussion page for conversation -

It is simply we call these pages or folders or sites or whatever - "discussions" - I also agree it would take away from the read to have a second conversation but, it is also a pain in the neck to try and follow a thread of thinking about the book and story itself and then have, granted valuable, but several posts about the people and culture of Afghanistan which seem like 'by the way did you know' posts.

Typically I love learning about the times, history and culture of the setting in a book - I love to research and share my links - but, if a book is Fiction Literature and not a Bio or a History, and if the book is holding its own so that it wins international recognition, there is a theme that can be recognized regardless how much you do or not know about the culture and society of the setting - Sometimes even I like to read for the theme as it relates to me rather than to evaluate the theme as a piece of history or current affairs, or that in order to understand the theme I must know about the many aspects of the society used by the author as the setting.

These threads beget threads more than people begat people in the Old Testament.

I started posting in a Café, then suddenly was posting in a "Round the World in 80 Days" thread for would-be international contemporary reading, and now I find myself in a Running Kite pre-thread that may or may not become the discussion of the FIRST BOOK itself (that may be yet another thread).

Not sure if I'm leaving people behind when I no longer post in the old haunts, or if this is a progression, of if old threads will soon be retired or "grandfathered," as it were, or if I'm in Kansas anymore (in Little League, I always used to get picked off first base while daydreaming of stealing second).

So although I agree with Barbara that it would be distracting to have posters enter encyclopedia-like research on countries as we tour the world, I also think sister (or brother) threads -- Castors for our Polluxes -- would be yet another thread to distract (ahem) the easily distractable (ahem) among us.

As Kleo says, perhaps it's better to count on posters to just bring in asides (on culture, food, movies, potpourri for $500 Alex, etc.) only when it's appropriate to events in the book.

The book's the thing, as Shakespeare didn't say. It is central to all we write and should be. That makes the book like all of us dues-paying solipsists, in a way.

Joan K, I was so heartened to read your remarks that it's such a good book you were already half way thru! It's been a long time since I read a really GOOD book (the Iliad, in fact) and so I am really looking forward to this, I got my copy yesterday.

Thank you, Kleo, all so interesting, especially the marriage part!

Welcome Claire (winsum) we are very glad to see you here.

Welcome Malhia (Persian), we are glad to see you here as well and look forward to your comments, you are now living not far from me, I understand?

Kevin, hahaha spell Czech, hahaah how DO you come up with these things!?!

What is a pregunta?

I'm glad you are asking questions. I am not sure yet what we'll do about a new discussion for Kite Runner. Sometimes when the Pre Discussion (that's this one) gets huge then people are somewhat daunted by having to begin discussing a book on post 500, and we do start anew. But if we do, there will be a link, it should not be hard to find. The downside, of course, is THIS discussion would then be deleted and all that interesting information will go with it.

I did like what Barbara did with her separate recipes in her discussion and we may find we'd like to do that here as well, not sure yet, let's play it as it comes for a bit, if we need to capture all the interesting stuff in one place, we can do that, too. I have loved all the suggestions here so far.

ON April 1, regardless of where, we'll have our schedule up, I looked thru the book just for the sake of division last night and I think our first week we will DISCUSS pages 1-109, the first 9 chapters. Of course you may have read the entire book 100 times over, but we'll ask you to keep to those parameters for the first week and not spoil it for the others?

I am impressed with all the themes I see listed as taking place in this book: the fragile relationships between fathers and sons, friendships, loyalty, family, culture, character studies, solid plot, deceptively simple prose, looks like a super book to me. It's been compared to Waiting by Ha Jin and Mahfouz's trilogy both of which (at least Palace Walk of the trilogy) we've read here, so I'm quite excited about reading Kite Runner. I have a feeling we will learn a great deal, and we won't lack things to say.

On April First when you come in here you'll find in the heading some topics for discussion, that hopefully will inspire you. If you have topics you also want to discuss or questions of your own, you'll certainly find them put in the heading as well!

As this is a conversation, I would appreciate each person talking to the others, I am very excited about this!

Welcome Jackie, sold out, huh? There were only 3 copies at the B&N I went to yesterday, well it IS on the NYTimes Best seller list, #1 in fact on the paperback list.

"Dues-paying solipsists, in a way." hahha we could talk about THAT for a month, no? Love it.

The amazing thing I am finding is the number of SeniorNet Members who actually do have ties to this region. It's like anything else, you start to read something and you're suddenly struck by all the coincidences. For instance, I see in dividing up the book, that Peshawar is mentioned, at least once. This past Saturday I was talking to a SeniorNet Member on the phone about his travels when he revealed he had been born in Peshawar and lived there until the age of 8! Another SeniorNet Member's son is currently serving in Afghanistan. If these two Members would like to join us, we'd love to have them, it's amazing what reading a book in a global community of readers will do! If this were taking place in MY living room, we'd not have any of this background and reader contacts!

Joan talks about spelling Afghanistan, I will confess I had no earthly idea where it is~ except for some vague understanding. WE need, for this discussion, a map which shows its location on the larger globe maps and then a zoom in location. This map, which I am not sure we have permission to use, I will write, it's not clear on the site, shows

the countries of India (yellow) Pakistan (formerly called East Pakistan or is it still?) in the orange and Afghanistan in the blue.

This is an excellent map which in the original, enlarges, when clicked upon to show the regions close up. If any of you can get maps (I have a very slow ISP and no time to go surfing anywhere, it takes 5 minutes this morning to raise very page) we can use, (that is they give permission to use) (would have to be an educational site) then please bring a link to them here and we can see about using them. For now I'm going to put this pretty thing in the heading till I can hear back further.

We need a good global map too we can stick pins in as we go Reading Around the World on April 1!~!

So! We’re launched and ready and eagerly accepting new members! If you are reading this and would like to read a really good book and join in, please do. We're really going to enjoy this one! Everyone is welcome!

Count me in on this fascinating discussion. I'll be out of town for half of April -- to the beach again, ha ha, but will login wirelessly. I've been wanting to read this book for a long time and a friend has finished reading it and has offered her copy.

Kleo and Mahlia, it's great to have such wonderful background info from you.

Here is a link to the National Geographic map of Afghanistan. I was interested in the Ethnic Groups (see window on left). When my son was in Afghanistan for 5 months, I ordered the large maps of the country and pinned them to the wall. Then I "tracked" him throughuot the country, as he stayed in touch by email. I've always found the National Geographic maps to be easy to use and superior in their detail.

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/landincrisis/ethnic.html

The second link is to the map of Afghanistan which I use. I find it invaluable.

http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/exchange-glance/Y01Y5961967Y0589459/058-1317631-0710850

KLEO - the Pashtuns whom I knew in Afghanistan were residents of that country, NOT of Iran. I've known Pashtuns in the USA - primarily in the Washington DC area, Colorado and California - who were university students of mine, colleagues (in DC) or individuals who were referred to me by mutual acquaintances. I've known several Afghan women in the USA by virtue of being a colleague of their American husbands and/or through volunteer efforts in support of Afghan women in Afghanistan. And I fondly remember that one of my first language teachers at the Middle East Institute was from Kabul, which meant that my Persian friends and family laughed at my Afghan accent!

We are not scheduled to begin reading the book for three weeks, but here we are, ready to go. Now might be a good time to look for background information, before we start.

I've been in many fiction discussions, and I don't think it will be too much of a problem having both factual information about Afghanistan and literary discussion at once. Some of us will be more interested in one, and some in the other. That's fine. The book does a good job of integrating both, and I think we can too.

The book starts in the city of Kabul in the 1970s. Here is a web site about the city.

KABUL

I've made a special folder in my favorites for this discussion. I've put in all these links so that I can reference them as we go along.

I also like the idea of having some off-side discussions here as we go along, but keeping it in context so we don't go wandering too far off.

Joan K,

Thanks for that link. I really enjoyed reading about Kabul and poem was lovely.

Joan Grimes

Pakistan is the former West Pakistan, not East Pakistan in the partitioning of the Indian subcontinent. East Pakistan was Bangladesh, EAST of India. West Pakistan was what is now called Pakistan, WEST of India.

Kleo

Yes, Mahlia, Iranians recognize my Afghan Persian instantly and usually ask if I married an Afghan or something. So, you speak Dari, but you've known mostly Pashtuns? Do you speak Pashto also? Any Arabic? I wish I had studied Middle Eastern languages. I am learning to read and write Dari now, though. I speak at about a 4-year-old level.

The Tajik/Pashtun thing is one area where it is obvious my only knowledge of Afghans is from family. I hang out with Tajiks, shop with Tajiks, party with Tajiks, eat Tajik food, go to Tajik weddings. And, since Afghan families are huge, and I know tons of Afghans who are all Tajiks, I guess I just assumed that the majority of Afghans in the US were Tajiks. Now, I realize I have no idea how many Tajiks, versus Pashtuns there are in the United States. I actually know more Hazara than Pashtuns. I do have one cousin who married a Pashtun--he loves to get me into political discussions. Mahlia, any idea of what the break-down is with the major ethnic groups and immigration to the United States? I looked around, but could find nothing that listed it by percentage Tajik, percentage Pashtun.

I really can't repeat enough that I know almost nothing about Afghans except from personal experience.

Kleo

KleoP: All I know about Afghanistan I learned reading Michener's Caravan, when the US invaded. You're miles and miles ahead of me, and I'm grateful for what light you can shed.

Barbara wrote, in part:

"...but, if a book is Fiction Literature and not a Bio or a History, and if the book is holding its own so that it wins international recognition, there is a theme that can be recognized regardless how much you do or not know about the culture and society of the setting."

I have not begun the book yet, but I'm betting culture is a major theme in any piece of literature about Afghans in two worlds. Many Afghans in America assimilate quite well, living in America outside their front door, and in Afghanistan behind it.

Nonetheless, I do like to focus on the book itself, as I have found the books I discuss on the Internet and the people I discuss them with have so much interesting that a broader focus is not necessary, but often distracting from the work..

Kleo

The beauty of having such a discussion here on the internet is that side issues can be explored as LINKS the way it's done on the Durants discussion. It needn't interrupt the flow at all . . . . I wonder if j Amazon is sold out. . . . Claire

Welcome, Pedln, we are very glad to see you here, BEACH again!?! Same house? hahaha We will be watching for your sandy remarks! hahaha

Thank you Kleo, for that correction on East and West Pakistan, the minute I saw the words East and West I should have given up, am somewhat directionally challenged. To put it mildly. hahahaa

Thank you Mahlia for those nice National Geographic Maps, they are very fine as links, but copyright protected, so we can't display them. Now on the Ethinc Groups one, I am not sure what ethnic groups are being portrayed, can you elaborate? They are beautiful maps, and quite colorful. That's quite touching with you and the map so you could follow along while your son was there, love that.

Karmie, I am interested in your folder idea? If you are already collecting links, would you mind being the OFFICIAL link collector for this discussion and emailing them to Patwest, email to be provided, with the titles as they appear, so we can get them up on an HTML adjunct page here in the heading? I would surely appreciate it. Often times in one of our wonderful book discussions here in SeniorNet Books, we have hundreds of links, and it's a full time job to keep track of them, while not wanting to miss any, would you mind, since you are copying them anyway, being our official help here in that? I would very much appreciate it.

Thank you Claire, Kleo, Kevin, Joan, and All, for your thoughts on which way the discussion should be structured, we'll play it by ear for a while and see how we think collectively it should go.

Thank you Joan K for that fascinating link to Kabul, aren't the mountains pretty? I was reading some review the other day on this book, which was talking about this "little known" country and since it's on the news just about every other day, it's hardly little known, or IS it? I actually know absolutely nothing about it, (and don't mind in the least saying so, nobody knows everything), except something about the Soviets and rebels. I did not know where it was accurately. I look forward to really expanding my mind here.

I am betting that if we sent out a survey and asked most people what they DO know about Afghanistan, it might be surprising and I think that's OK! So if YOU, Gentle Reader, are reading this and thinking, hmmmm Afghanistan, huh? Good book, huh? NYTimes #1 paperback bestseller, huh? Well, JOIN US!

I think we should, actually, do just that, send out a survey on Afghanistan, might get us more readers, will see about that this morning. Once everybody wakes up, that is. hahahaa

Everyone is welcome here, apparently it's a HECK of a book, on top of everything else.

But in Joan's link I do see the Khyber Pass, and certainly again we have HEARD of this.

Apparently the book is set in a particular period of history and here again we will learn much and I agree with Joan K this is a good time to get some of the background, before the discsussion. As you read you are naturally curious about this culture and country.

What FUN!! Welcome, All!!

My grandmother made many afghans in her day yet she wassn't one nor did she ever have a relationship with one. Blanket statement, I know, but it always leads to warm thoughts and it ain't pretty outside with 50 mph gusts, temps in the teens, ice underfoot, and a yet another dumping of snow last night.

Never mind Khyber, I wish Winter would pass.

HAHAHAHAAaaaaaaaaaaaaa how DO you come UP with that stuff? There must be some way we can put this arcane talent to good use. I have one too, I have a strange talent for repeating song lyrics, I can sing any song I ever heard and some of them are now lost, were sung to me by my grandmother, old mountain songs, that's the only talent I have. hahahaa

I could no more have written that post you just wrote than spoken Urdu, but I sure am enjoying reading them. (Now, would you like to hear a chorus of The Sinking of the Titanic?)

I only know the ones that I remember from my Grandmother's selections which aren't usable today due to some Little Black Sambo leanings.

I have been notified that my book is no longer available on Alibris so went to Amazon and ordered a new copy from the New/Used list for $8.50+shp. Its has already been shipped.

Due to 14 degree temps this morning and another dusting--dusting?????-- of snow, I am trying to get some inside work done and avoid leaving the house for awhile. Yes, Kevin, to H___ with the Kyber, bring on the Spring! This has been a long winter with the flu season not starting until late January. My whole family here and in Indy are down for the count, some on their third bout with this ugly stuff!!

Links are so nice! This one on Kabul is a delight!

For posters unfamilair with Afghanistan, here's some info, compliments of GOOGLE: Country NAME: Afghanistan Location: Southern Asia, north and west of Pakistan, east of Iran Climate: arid to semiarid; cold winters and hot summers Natural Hazards: damaging earthquakes occur in Hindu Kush mountains; flooding; droughts Population: 28,513,677 Nationality: Afghan Ethnic Groups: Pashtun 42%, Tajik 27%, Hazara 9%, Uzbek 9%, Aimak 4%, Turkmen 3%, Baloch 2%, other 4% Religions: Sunni Muslim 80%, Shi'a Muslim 19%, other 1% Languages: Pashtu (official) 35%, Afghan Persian (Dari) 50%, Turkic languages (primarily Uzbek and Turkmen) 11%, 30 minor languages (primarily Balochi and Pashai) 4%, much bilingualism Capital: Kabul Currency: afghani (AFA)

In preparation for the April 1st discussion, Michener's CARAVANS is an excellent histrocial book about Afghanistan; great resources on its culture and ethnic groups. The historical component is excellent and well researched (from Micheners first-hand experiences). Much of the topography remains the same today.

KLEO - I have been away from Washington DC too long to have stats easily at hand about Afghan ethnic populations in the USA. Sorry! Perhaps a quick GOOGLE search would bring up some information.

Afghanistan has two official languages, Pashtu and Dari. This may have changed under the Taliban (Pashtun speakers), but it would have gone back under President Karzi.

Yea, Mahlia, I tried googling the information. There were too many hits that were not the information I wanted. I think that finding demographics on the Internet takes some work. I may try INS.

Kleo

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/afghanistan.html
-- all kinds of Afghanistan Maps from the huge collection at the Perry-Castañeda at UT

including this political map done in 2002 --
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/afghanistan_pol_2002.jpg --

as a opposed to this one done in 1992 --
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/afghanistan_pol_93.jpg --

And how about this Russian version of the political map --
http://w3.vitebsk.by/afgan/history/map2.html

OOOhhh a good relief map in color --
http://fermi.jhuapl.edu/maps/afghanistan/

Oh oh oh oh This is great - a map AND some great photos of PEOPLE in Afghanistan - keep scrolling on this site to see all the photos -- teriffic site --
http://users.powernet.co.uk/mkmarina/afghanistan/afghanistan.html

Another good one that is interactive and with a mash of a button you can see many seperations within the country. I have it set up so when you click you can see in colors the lands of the various ethnic groups or tribes - oh and by the way the various ethnic groups are named and color coded on the bottom of the map --
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/landincrisis/ethnic.html

This is a great one from BBC because with a click there is a short bio about each ethnic group --
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/world/2001/war_on_terror/key_maps/ethnic_groups.stm

here is an example:
Pashtun: Estimated to be in excess of 45% of the population, the Pashtuns have been the most dominant ethnic group in Afghanistan. They speak varying dialects of Pashto/Pukhtu and are principally concentrated in the southern provinces of Afghanistan but also prevalent in Kabul and some communities live scattered in other parts of the country due to resettlement policies at the turn of the century. Pashtuns are divided along tribal lines. The mass departure of people during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was 85% Pashtun. This dramatically changed the ratio of ethnic groups.

OK here we go - the Los Angeles something or other has this PDF file with a map of the Poppy fields accompaning a good article about Afghanistan and included on the page is a circular graphs showing the percentage of some of the major ethnic groups - just a chuck full page. --
http://a1022.g.akamai.net/f/1022/6000/5m/www.latimes.com/media/acrobat/2001-09/668759.pdf

Great links, BARBARA! Leave it to the Texans, although the UK are pretty good, too. A Russian friend (former military officer) sent me a couple of maps of the North country to pass along to my son before his deployment and they were so detailed it was amazing. Two members of the Karzai family in Washington spent some time talking with us about the culture (especially the gender issues) and their effort was much appreciated.

The Guardian has an interesting interactive map of Kabul - when you click on the name of the city a street map comes up with the major buildings noted - when you click on those squares representing the major buildings the name of the building is noted included is the palace --
http://www.guardian.co.uk/flash/0,5860,567568,00.html

Oohh another good one from the Guardian - an interactive map that with a click shows you what percentage of muslims live in various nations of the world. --
http://www.guardian.co.uk/flash/0,5860,567574,00.html

Leave it to the Guardian - another interactive site that gives a simple understanding of Ramadan --
http://www.guardian.co.uk/flash/0,5860,584091,00.html

Oh you must take a peek at this one - Kabul from space BUT is shows every house and pool and and and - you can make this large so you see the backyards or see the whole in a smaller version. --
http://www.spaceimaging.com/gallery/enduring_freedom/kabul_9-7-00.jpg

This is a nice one from the Washington Post to see the climate - where the desert is - the valleys by name - not as detailed a relief map but all the better since there is a bit more information --
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/graphics/attack/zone_6.html

Ho ho and a diddly die - this is not only a comprehesive page of photos and more photos and more photos - as well as a link to online music from the area -- BUT the most wonderful -- there is a photo of a group of men and women in their ethnic dress with whom you can have an ONLINE CHAT --
http://www.afghana.com/Photographs/Photos.htm

In the site above are The Luke Powell Photographs -
http://www.lukepowell.com/afghanistan/A1.HTM captured images of Afghanistan before their lives were in upheaval - Afghanistan back in the mid 70s - just beautiful.

Compare them to the photos in the link "Assistance Afghanistan Site
http://www.pcpafg.org/photos/ - Collection of pictorials by NGOs" and all you can do is stop and cry...

Here is another Luke Powell site - before the madness right up to today --
http://www.lukepowell.com/

Love when cold and homeless --
http://www.worldvision.org/worldvision/imagelib.nsf/main/gik1.jpg/$file/gik1.jpg

What wonderful links. I forwarded some to my face to face book group (I had a hard time choosing). Among them, the history of the ethnic groups which is incredibly relevant.

I bookmarked the source and will print out my own private copy as needed. I may only want to look. . . . thankyou . . . . Claire

I've been remembering the movies about Afghanistan which I've stumbled across while channel surfing. One, called The Beast, is about a lone Russian tank which is being stalked by Afghan fighters. You can almost taste the grit of the sand. Another is called Osama, and is about a youmg girl seeking work. I've not seen more than a few minutes, at the end, but I'm looking for a re-showing. The last i do not remember the title; it is about a family traveling across a vast plain. It is cold, they have only one horse, three adults and an infant. Somber, gloomy, but very compelling. The vast country side, especially at the slow walk the tiring horse can manage, is numbing.

a boy before the Talaban take over or the Russian war or the US army war. http://avalon.unomaha.edu/afghan/afghanistan/A10.HTM

A boy now. http://avalon.unomaha.edu/afghan/afghanistan/Taliban/as40.jpg

Ann Alden and Barbara, thank you both for the links to the Afghanistan maps.

Yes thank you all for that tremendous outpouring of links, all appear so valuable and interesting.

May I make one request of those of you posting links? Will you please use the formula for displaying a link in the short form? The longer links make the entire discussion scroll, I'll be glad to email you the form if you like and that will help a lot. I have used it below for the Photo Retrospective and you can see how it works. Thank you so much.

Since my ISP is very slow, currently galloping along at 28.8 this morning (and no nothing else is available out here) and it takes me several minutes to even load a page on SeniorNet, I am not able to browse all of them, unfortunately, so loved the maps, Ann, and I see they MAY be used without further writing or permission, put up by the University of Texas (at Austin, Barbara!!) and we will put them to good use, many thanks!

So because I could not choose but one other url yesterday, I chose the photo journal to spend some time on The Luke Powell Photographs for now, because of that spectacular lead photo. . I note that Barbara says that this IS the Afghanistan of the '70's, and it is, in fact, simply spectacular and once you've finished viewing the photos and reading the descriptions, you, in fact, it would seem, have a very fine sort of pictorial introduction to the time and the environment that this book took place in.

I must say that Photo 15 blew me away, what a surreal and beautiful country. Photo 17, the rocks in the distance, look like a moon landing but it's photo 22 that I simply can't get over, I recommend this photo essay, also lots of buildings and people, but I see all of the links are well worth our pre discussion time. Thank you!

Have any of you talked online with any of the Afghans on that online chat site? If you do, bring us their thoughts or invite them in here!

Lol, Barbara, I love the picture of all the Afghans linked to the chat room. These are holiday clothes, except, of course, for the woman wearing the pants. This picture looks like every Afghan apartment living room I've ever been in in Fremont California.

It's hard for me to imagine Afghans on-line chatting, although I know some who claim to. It's just seems so unAfghan! Anyone who chats there be sure to report!

This is a good picture of the Afghan carpets, from a website that someone posted:

http://mysite.mweb.co.za/residents/ekawasa/JohnPattenGraphics/Iconic/Ipages/Icon56.htm

All Afghans I know in America have these red carpets in their living rooms, bedrooms, outside, everywhere--although many have other Persian carpets, also. When I order pizza, the delivery guy will ask if Afghans live here, or if I'm married to an Afghan because I also use one on my front step, as Afghans do--usually a torn runner, in this red with black and cream and gold.

Since the fall of the Taliban my Afghan family goes back and forth, not just out of Afghanistan. They take all their trappings of America, including video cameras, back with them on their visits. I watched one video last year, during Ramadan, of an uncle visiting his home village in the North. The road all the way from Kabul has been bombed extensively, what were once houses and stores, are now crumbs. He slaughtered two lambs to take fresh meat to his village. One of the boys who gathered meat for his family, smelled the lamb and could not resist taking a bite raw to fill his scrawny, hungry body--he was too young to have eaten much meat in his lifetime. When a group of women in burqas came up, everyone waiting and reaching for their meat stood aside until these women had been given some. Most of the videos I watch are of weddings. Except that the rooms have shorter ceilings I can't tell if the weddings are in America or Afghanistan.

It's a tough world. It always has been for Afghans. The country is very harsh, and this is a unifying factor.

Kleo

Thank you Kleo, as the discussion is now scrolling again, might I ask if you would mind using the formula for display of URLS that does not cause that?

I will mail it to you later in the day, and hope that you will not mind using it, thank you.

aha- the only reason I did not use the formula Ginny was because someone said they were collecting the links and since it is not possible to go into each other's posts any longer to get the URL I thought I would supply it.

Also I am using someone elses suggestion for getting all this coffee klutch by the way did you know or see this about Afghanistan out of the way now before the discussion of the book starts on April 1...toodles for now, busy day...

Great, Barb, thank you, and just a note to those of you who would like to SAVE the urls? All you have to do is RIGHT CLICK on them and it will say Copy Shortcut, select that, and paste it wherever you'd like it and it pastes in the long form?

Since we have our new software here, something new has happened, and that is that when people paste just the long url in the original in their posts, then the discussions scroll. I'm sure they will fix this, but at the moment it's hard on some of the participants to have to keep scrolling to the right, (you see them complaining about it all over SeniorNet), just to read everybody's sentences, even those who have not posted a link, it affects all of us.

Let me see if I can make it display the code here and I will put it in the heading, until this glitch is fixed with the new software: simply type this exactly as written:

<a href="http://www.whatever"> Title of link here </a>

Let's see if that works!

And here's how it will display: A HIstory of Afghanistan from the University of Kansas

Ginny, you want people to use HTML mark-up to post short titles to the URLs? Not a problem. However, if people are complaining about it all over SeniorNet it might be useful to put the information in the display area of the page, or include a link to somewhere that explains it so everyone gets the information at once, instead of e-mailing individuals. Unless, of course, I am the only person on SeniorNet who doesn't know that it causes scrolling! I do know how to do HTML mark-up in these posts, though.

Webmonkey Links How-To!

Kleo

Thank you Kleo, just the little formula will be fine. I am going to have to ask Pat W to insert our little forumula into the heading here as there seems to be a problem with the heading coding. I want to be sure I myself have not caused it, and I may well have, they are very delicate things.

Not everybody posts URLS in every discussion, I think those who do are soon aware of this issue, thanks.

Funny thing. I was trying to get up some publicity for this discussion? And I had setteled on a poll to ask people what they knew about Afghanistan? That's when I learned I TRULY know nothing about it. There's a free encyclopedia called Wikipedia which has a lot of stuff in it about Afghanistan, including the countries that border it, but it's almost impossible for me to make UP a quiz, it's got such a convoluted history.

If YOU were going to make up a short What do YOU Know About Afghanistan Quiz, what would you put as Questions (and Answers?) I had ONE really good one, which country of these does NOT border Afghanistan? I liked that one:

China

Iran

India

Pakistan

Uzbekistan

I like that one! The history of the country is quite convoluted, it's hard to think up something TO ask, what would YOU ask? I may be able to do a short poll or Questionaire yet?

I would ask things like -- how many ethnic groups are in Afghanistan - Is one language spoken in Afghanistan - what kind of government did Afghanistan have before the Russian Invasion and before the Talaban rule. What ancient civilization were located where Afghanistan is on the map. What great war lord came to Afghanistan in the thirteenth century. Why do the people of Afghanistan have close ties with Pakistan. What is the ancient name of Afghanistan. Are the families who weave persian carpets in Afghanistan still living a nomad lifestyle.

Cronological History of Afghanistan

Great explanation of the Tribes of Afghanistan

Who are the carpet weavers

Threads of Culture - the life and times of an Afghan carpet - a PDF

The Ersari Turkmen weaving project

Carpet Weaving in Khorazan Province with photos

An online news page recommended by Mercy Corps The Many Faces of Afghanistan curriculum guide - Islamicity

Online Afghan magazine that includes poetry and short stories [in English] Lemar - Aftaab

Kabul Museum

the Dari and Pashto alphabet

The Footsteps of Alexander the Great with Michael Wood PBS

Silk Road Encounters Education Kit

Fabulous this site has oodles of recommended children's books about Afghanistan The Many Faces of Afghanistan appendix 1

Other questions: What famous European is remembered in the name of a city in Afghanistan? (Alexander, Kanhadar) What two countries are separated by the Khyber Pass? (Pakistan & Afghanistan)

Death by linking... I think it appeared in one of Afghanistan Christie's books, didn't it? Miss Marple and the Papal Kabul, if memory serves.

Well, heck, I don't know most of these. I do know the geography of Afghanistan, though.

Do you mean by "[what] ancient civilization were located where Afghanistan is on the map," which ones have expanded into Afghanistan, or was Afghanistan at some time another civilization? The first I know, unless you're asking the second.

I do know the thirteenth century warlord one, because it was the first time two strange and remote lines of my ancestors and/or family crossed, the second being in Berkeley, California.

As to close ties with Pakistan? Well, about half of my Afghan family still in Afghanistan actually live in Pakistan. But Tajiks don't, otherwise, have particularly close ties with Pakistan.

I know a bit about the carpet weavers, because of an interesting aside. The carpets are dyed in Lahore, Pakistan, which is world famous for the Shalimar Gardens.

I know a bit about Alexander, and the Silk Road, but not due to knowing it about Afghanistan. The PBS series on Alexander is great because the show's host crosses into Pakistan on the route that many refugees who went by bus took. All of my cousins who were teens when they came to Pakistan loved watching a video-tape of this. They said it was dirty, and dangerous, and it stank, but it was a grand adventure--and what fun to watch the TV host repeat it for a job, not for his life and freedom. Most refugees, though, come on foot into Pakistan or Iran or other countries, and into some of the internal refugee camps.

I know the Dari alphabet! I never thought of the Pashto alphabet, though. It's nice to know it's just Arabic letters, also, though. So, this means, either I can read both Dari and Pashto, or neither?

I can't really think of any questions about Afghanistan. Oh, I know one, name one other pass besides Kyber, that heads into Pakistan! And, heck if I won't have to look it up.

Kleo

PS Ginny, the page I posted does have just the formula. But it also explains it. The formula is simply the HTML mark-up. Your heading looks fine on my computer, but mine doesn't scroll.

I am a bit surprised about how little I know about Afghanistan. I guess I know more about Russia. This is probably because there is so much available about Russia, and I have watched a lot of movies--lazy way to history. I did see a movie a few years ago at one of the film festivals (I do SF and Mill Valley) that made a lot of references to Central Asia, and I followed it, while my companion was lost and confused. Also, I saw an hysterical film about the partitioning of Turkey (amongst other countries) at the same festival and got a lot of the in-jokes.

I feel like I should know a lot more. I'm reading a book on Lyshenkoism (Soviet pseudo-science) right now and recognize almost all the historical characters listed in the book. If I read an equivalent book about Afghans I would be at a loss (besides the fact that Afghans share few names with many people) to recognize anyone. In fact, I read Najib Mahfouz's Palace Walk trilogy and recognized more of the figures in that than I would in an Afghan history. Shame on me!

Kleo

April 1 is a Friday. I think I would like to start off with a bang, so to speak, by having a virtual Afghan dinner party. Wouldn't it be fun if we all went to an Afghan restaurant to start us off?

Afghan restaurant? I've never seen a-one. Closest, maybe, might be Bangor. Probably it would be better to spread afghans on our living room floors and feast on homemade Afghan cuisine (culled from culinary sites on the Internet). Just don't spill anything. Cleaning afghans is hellacious at best.

And say (Jackie, et al), are people still subscribed to the Round-the-World thread where it all began? This nice lady named BaBi volunteered to be my friend (running total as of this moment: 1) because I was being outvoted about 143 to 2 in a "Name That Book Group" contest. Oh. And Barbara was a Saint, too. Only she wouldn't go on record as being my "friend" (sounds like my wife, who says she can never be careful enough).

Yes, I've been reading about it all. You didn't seem to be convinced that the proposition was all that was wrong. Let's get really way out. We have tout le monde to choose from (drat those prepositions!)

Well not enough frequent flyer miles to catch up with y'all but this Philly Afghanistan restaurant has a lot going for it Kabul in Philly

Now from this site we could have an Persian dinner for four delivered for $75 - wonder if that includes the cost of air delivery - but still $75 even divided by 4 and by the time you add the tip that is $23 each - hmmm not exactly my price range for take-out.Afghan Cuisine Shopping

Now this site has recipes - interesting most of them are considered both Jewish and Afghan recipes - are there that many Jewish Afghanis I wonder?? Talk about bridging the great divide...!

For a feast we cannot beat Margarita, who includes not only the recipes but the menu for a "Dastarkhan" which is a celebration

The Two Sisters really offers us all that Martha offers in her 'good thing' magazine - recipes and fashion and the social behavior that is hijab - wonderful graphics - you can spend time here finding your April 1 Afghan meal that it looks like we either have to prepare ourselves or hijack a family member or maybe someone who owes us - hmmm well, someone must cook Friday night dinner...

Kevin this journalist is a better commentator than someone who makes holy or unholy alliances...

-- As we say here in Texas, "ya did gooood" with Babi...!

Afghans would never spread an afghan or other furry yarn cloth on the floor and then eat on it. Go to the fabric store and buy 10 feet of vinyl, or more depending upon the size of your family, and spead that on the floor, then put the serving dishes in the middles and sit around it to eat. Put a persian rug down before you spread the vinyl roll and it will be real Afghan. When it gets time to clean up, get down on your hands and knees, forgoing the mops and brooms and sponges, and clean with your hands all the food spilled on the cloth or the rug around the edges. Then clean up in the kitchen and clean the kitchen floor on your hands and knees, using a dish cloth instead of a mop when it comes time to mop. That will be eating Afghan style.

Jews lived in Kabul. I think most all of them left under the Taliban.

Marinade any lamb you have any way you want and grill it and call it kabob. Afghan salad is very simple, chope a couple of onions, or slice see-through thin, then add about two bunches of salantro, a couple of tomatoes cubes, salt and squeeze lemon on it--Afghan salad.

Kleo

ooohhh like that salad but the acid would be murder for me - do you have another suggestion or so - our "in-house" commentator with "Good tips of the day." hehehe did you ever know you would be a Martha Stewart on SeniorNet for a rag tag group of readers tackling a story set in Afghanistan...

For dessert drink black or green tea, and pass around a crystal bowl with sugar cubes in it. Take a sugar cube and eat it, then finish your tea. You may also stuff madjool dates with walnuts, buy candied almonds (not Jordan almonds), eat pistachios, or baklava, and dried fruit. Pineapple-upside down cake is a potluck favorite.

Most of the food that was listed on the Jewish and Afghan dishes was Afghan dishes. There were a few I didn't recognize, but it was a pretty good assortment of what Afghans eat. Bowlonhee, though, are made with Afghan leeks, not French leeks. Afghan leeks look more like green onions, but taste different. Gosh feel is breakfast food. I've never had it for dessert. Aush is soup. The poloni looks like a meat dish, not a dairy dish, that is served with most Afghan meals. There are no main dishes without meat, except for breakfast, which is eggs, deep fried in oil with tomatoes and halapinos. Afghan eat tons of spicey eggplant that is covered with yoghurt. Many Afghan dishes are covered with yoghurt--and they generally make their own, or they buy fresh runny yoghurt from the store, liquid. They drink a yoghurt drink, also. Afghan food is tremendously hot. They serve dried pepper seeds on the side. Dahl is eaten with fresh lime squeezed in your bowl, and sometimes yoghurt drizzled on top. Afghans eat lots of pickled vegetables. They tend to eat only two meals, breakfast and dinner. These, of course, are my American Afghans.

This is something I know about Afghan culture, at last: the food!

Kleo

Kleo are halapenos anything like Jalapenos - if so, no wonder the boys from Fort Hood had no problem carrying out their duty there. Between whatever that game is played on horseback with the stuffed pig being grabbed by whoever can make the grab followed by some rice with jalapenos all they needed was a beer to wash it all down, which I bet in a Muslim nation was not easy to come by. Do Afghan people drink any beer at all?

I read years ago the people in this part of the world figured out how to store the yeast needed to make beer - they did it by kneading it into grain making bread in the process.

A Filipina friend who is married to a Kurdish Iranian told me that you can nicely tenderize meat by simply marinating meat, such as chuck, in chopped onions. When it kebabed, the onion taste is not pronounced, it is very tasty.

Many of the Afghan recipes are similar to Persian ones and both are wonderfully spiced and very tasty.

Regarding the Jews of Afghanistan, most of the Pashtuns whom I have known speak historically of Jews being among their ancestors. And, in fact, comments about their lineage from the ancient "Lost Tribe" of Biblical lore were often included in discussions. In appearance, many Pashtun have very striking semitic characteristics. It should not be surprising that Jews were resident in Afghanistan (and its border countries), since caravan traders were often Jews (or included Jewish brokers) who traveled extensively throughout the Middle East, Central and South Asia enroute to China and its Northern and Southern borders. Here I am thinking particularly of the great Sasoon family (and its many branches). In Michener's CARAVAN, he writes movingly of the Jews of Afghanistan.

I really cannot write English, think Dari, and go from Dari to Spanish to English. Halapenos are Jalapenos.

The Afghans also eat the hotter peppers. One time, one of my aunties cooked some peppers in oil for breakfast. All of the older women eat the hottest food in the world. Raugoul wanted something really really hot. She was in the kitchen cooking breakfast, I was upstairs with one of the little girls when our eyes started tearing--shooting tears! We quickly ran out of the house, Raugoul with us, after pulling the pot off the stove. In the back yard she looked at us and said, "It might be too hot even for me."

Afghans also eat mixed green salads with Ranch dressing in America. However, every evening meal is served with this green salad that I described, the calantro, tomatoes, onions, salted and lemon..

Most Afghan dishes are quite hot. They contain peppers, and Afghans love to spice everything, as I said, with dried pepper seeds, in addition to cooking with peppers.

I've only known Afghan men, and only a couple, to drink beer. They do it in secret, as all the ones I know are Muslims. I've never seen an Afghan drink alcohol. I don't mind having grown up around non-drinkers.

The Afghans also tenderize meat by marinading it in the refrigerator (or not, but you don't want to know that) overnight in onions. They also use garlic. Or you can tenderize lamb overnight for kabobs by putting lamb cubes (about 2" or 5cm on a side) in a dish with a quart of runny yogurt and a jar of chopped garlic. This is one thing I can do that impresses Afghans in the kitchen, I can chop garlic like you wouldn't believe. When I do it, I use fresh garlic.

I don't know much about Lost Tribe Jews and their presence in Pashtun lineages--only what Mahlia just told me. However, most of my family who lived as adults in Afghanistan have known Jews. Jews have lived in Afghanistan for ages. As have Mongols, and their descendents, and many others. It is an interesting country because it is so mixed--it may have never had peace, but it has been livable and supported itself. I do want to read Caravan, now.

Tajiks, are generic white people with brown skin--they don't look particularly Semitic. Many Americans think that Afghans with brown eyes look Hispanic. Blue or green eyes are common. Blonde hair is not unknown.

When I am visiting someone who is not direct family, I usually hang out in the kitchen with the women. I tend to just get underfoot, as I said, I only do garlic. All the women cook and cut and clean and serve and do everything together in one unit. It's pretty impressive. I love the atmosphere, also. Americans, and other Westerners tend to be put-off by some of what I find the best aspects of Afghan culture. I'm sure arranged marriages will come up and send people screaming! while we are reading the book. This will be interesting.

Kleo

I worked with a Muslim Persian/Indian woman for many years who was married to a Pashtun in an arranged marriage. By the time I met her, she had been married about 20 years and told me that it was a great joy to have married her husband first, then learned to love him, as he also came to know and love her. When they were together, it was wonderful to see the way they treated each other - very caring and kind. I have visited in their home many times and the interaction with each other at home was the same.

KLEO - when I read your comments about your Mongol family members, I remember being taught how to ride on small but stury horses during a very brief visit to Mongolia many years ago. I've always been extremely grateful that I initially learned to ride as a young person under the careful (and thorough) training of a wonderful Sioux native in Montana.That early training kept me from being totally humiliated years later! I certainly was nowhere near as skillful as my hosts, but I didn't fall off the horses either!

What was that book so popular last year about a guy who comes to America and ends up staying with an old lady renting out one of her bedrooms - the old lady has a daughter and something about him putting the key back on a hook - then he goes back and marries the woman his family arranged for him -

They come to America where he resumes his teaching job, I think at some University back east, and the story describes how they live politely but on pins and needles till all of a sudden because of the way she reacts and discusses with him, the women who was his landlady when he was a student.

I think maybe he and his new wife go together to the ladys funeral - I am not remembering the details - but because of that incindent and how she reacted with a shared understanding and humor he says that is when he fell in love with her - I think he may have been telling the story to his son or something.

Forgot the name of the book but it was all the rage being read last year and I had the opportunity to listen as the author read the entire book on NPR. I was driving that part of the trip where I drive through Mississippi, Alabama and Georgia on my way to my daughters.

Thank you all for all the questions and suggestions, I have learned something just reading them, and for all the background material, foods, and clever initiating ideas, we're really getting quite the head start here for our April 1 book discussion!

(Kleo, FYI, the heading and all of the posts will revert to their former positions...that is, not scrolling... when enough posts have passed by each time, it's the meantime that's the problem, thank you for that link to the HTML).

How about the author? Has anybody found out anything about him? (I thought since we're using this pre discussion time to learn about Afghanistan itself and the culture, foods, etc., we might also want to see what we can find in the way of background information on him?)

There appears to be quite a change in Afghanistan in the last 30 years. A new article in the March 14 issue of Time concerns (as does the cover) How to End Poverty. It states that 8 million people each year die because they are too poor to stay alive. Afghanistan is mentioned as a source of heroin that poor addicts in Peshawar, Pakistan are shown begging money for.

It's quite a searing article, and makes some startling statements, like these:

A few centuries ago, vast divides in wealth and poverty around the world did not exist. Just about everybody was poor, with the exception of a very small minority or ruler and large landowners. Life was as difficult in much of Europe as it was in India or China. Your great-great-grandparents were, with very few exceptions, poor and living on a farm. The onset of the Industrial Revolution, supported by a rise in agricultural production, unleashed an explosive period of modem economic growth. Both population and per-capita income came unstuck, rising at rates never before imagined. The global population rose more than six fold in just two centuries, while the word's average per-capita income rose even faster, increasing around nine fold between 1820 and 2000. In today's rich countries, the economic growth was even more astounding. The US per-capita income increased almost 25 fold during this period. In beholding that success, many people embrace faulty social theories of those differences. When a society is economically dominant, it is easy for its members to assume that such dominance reflects a deeper superiority—whether religious, racial, genetic, ethnic, cultural or institutional —rather than an accident of timing or geography….

Countries ranging from Bolivia to Malawi to Afghanistan face challenges almost unknown in the rich world, challenges that are at first harrowing to contemplate, but on second thought encouraging in the sense that they also lend themselves to practical solutions.

And it goes on quite interestingly, the author is the director of the UN Millennium Project, "which has the goal of helping to cut the world's extreme poverty in half by 2015." It gives sort of a walk a mile in the shoes of others point of view.

This is not a political proselytizing discussion, those are found under Politics on SeniorNet, but it's interesting to just note these things in the greater picture, because apparently it's NOT all beautiful scenery and happy people doing nice things. I am sure this article on global poverty is on the internet, just look under Time and Poverty. And the problems of financial aid to these countries is also addressed, quoting former Secretary of the Treasury Paul O'Neill, "We've spent trillions of dollars on these problems and we have damn near nothing to show for it."

The article is full of solutions, and may be worth discussing in our political folders, but for me, and the reason I bring it HERE, is that it has opened a desire to find out why this particular country, Afghanistan, seems to not be the idyllic place photographed in our photo retrospective shown earlier, of 30 years ago, which IS the time period of this book. I think I would like to read more about the history of the country, so I can see what happened, as a backdrop for our book.

There is a wonderful movie on India out if any of you have seen it called Lagaan. It's fiction of course, I want to say Bollywood, almost (lots of music) but it's quite good in explaining dramatically some of the history and tensions of British Colonial rule AND the Maharajas. (If you get the DVD it's really a hoot, there are scenes which were cut from the movie and which don't have subtitles so if you don't speak Hindi, or whatever language it is, you have no earthly idea what they are about. There is an Equal Opportunity going on, tho, the English speakers in the film ALSO have English subtitles under their speeches) hahaha The article in this week's Time Magazine also talks about some of the startling areas which are well governed and yet show lack of progress when given aid compared to some of the more corrupt nations, it's quite interesting, and it will certainly cause me to find out more about the history of this country, which to me is so little known it's just a name in the news.

This "pre discussion" time is ideal for learning a lot about the culture, history, and customs of Afghanistan before we start the actual book discussion on April 1. I like the way it's working out so far.

Let's, each of us who are reading this, take ONE small aspect of Afghanistan, just on our own for our own use, and find out ONE thing about it that we did not know before this discussion began, and in that way we can, armed with the rich submissions here, begin our discussion of the book on April 1, with one tiny bit more knowledge than we started.

I hope that more people will join us!! Everyone is welcome, we begin discussing the book on April 1 !!

http://www.khaledhosseini.com/

"Khaled Hosseini was born in Kabul, Afghanistan in 1965. He is the oldest of five children. and his mother was a teacher of Farsi and History at a large girls high school in Kabul. In 1976, Khaled’s family was relocated to Paris, France, where his father was assigned a diplomatic post in the Afghan embassy. The assignment would return the Hosseini family in 1980, but by then Afghanistan had already witnessed a bloody communist coup and the Soviet invasion. Khaled’s family, instead, asked for and was granted political asylum in the U.S. He moved to San Jose, CA, with his family in 1980. He attended Santa Clara University and graduated from UC San Diego School of Medicine. He has been in practice as an internist since 1996. He is married, has two children (a boy and a girl, Haris and Farah). The Kite Runner is his first novel."

Well for heavens sake - than this guy is an American isn't he - an Afghan immigrant - even educated here where as some of the writers who have emigrated to the US at least were not educated here.

I can see how he would not have gone back for even a visit while the Talaban was in power but I wonder if he went back at all for a visit before he wrote the book...ah so much for our decision to only include writers from another nation whose work was translated into English.

BARBARA: in the author's web site under "writing" he explained that he went back after he had written the book:

"Then, in March 2003, with the novel proofread and in production, I found myself tracing my protagonist’s footsteps, sitting in the window seat of an Ariana Airlines Boeing 727 headed toward Kabul. Like Amir, I had been gone a long time, almost 27 years, in fact; I was an 11-year-old, thin-framed seventh- grader when I left Afghanistan. I was going back now as a 38-year-old physician residing in Northern California, a writer, a husband and father of two. I gazed out the window, waiting for the plane to break through the clouds, waiting for Kabul to appear below me. When it did, a few lines from “The Kite Runner” came to me, and Amir’s thoughts suddenly became my own: The kinship I felt suddenly for the old land É it surprised me. É I thought I had forgotten about this land. But I hadn’t. Maybe Afghanistan hadn’t forgotten me either. The old adage in writing is you write about what you’ve experienced. I was going to experience what I had already written about".

Thanks Joan, that helps doesn't it...

Well from my point of view, the man was born in Kabul, Afghanistan, and lived there until he was in the 7th grade, by their standards he probably was considered a man. I think he definitely counts as an authentic voice, and I kind of like that he's describing what he felt and remembered from that time. I could do the same thing with Philly and PA, I guarantee you, and I left there in the 7th grade, too.

I remember during the Hungarian Revolution, lots and lots of refugees came to where we lived in NJ, including a young man my age (8th grade) who had commandeered an entire train, climbed up in the engine and drove the train and the people on it thru some sort of check point or something or blockade, thru firing, and to freedom.

I would hate to think that he would not be considered an authentic voice, just because he stayed in the United States.

I think this makes Hosseini more, not less, interesting, and I also think it underscores the fact that this IS a book of fiction, and it's good to be reminded of that so we can appreciate what he's done. Ars gratia artis.

Great thoughts Ginny - I just wonder now about a few other authors whose work seems more indicitive of the nation they lived in rather than the fact they now live in the US - I am thinking of authors like Isabel Allende

I know any and all decisions about this group's book selecting criteria have been frozen like Iranian bank accounts, but this first author's case will prove an interesting starting point for the discussion of what makes an author another national.

The line in years will have to be drawn somewhere, I suppose, else I will be considered an Irish writer and my unpublished novel will be up for discussion on these boards ("boreds," we'll call 'em, once people start reading it).

There are some differences, though, between Afghans who come to America and others, as I mentioned before. It is almost certain that Khaled Hosseini has lived in an Afghan home all of his life. He probably is quite comfortable sleeping on the floor. Even physicians' wives get down on their hands and knees to clean the kitchen floor. Well, actually, I should say even physicians. In my family we have some women who are physicians, I'm not sure there are any male MDs. He has Afghan rugs, eats Afghan food every night, except for pizzas, attends Afghan weddings, speaks his first language in his home. Many other people who come to America adapt their first culture in their homes. Afghans don't necessarily. They really live Afghan in their homes.

But, yes, I don't know the book, but it is extensively advertised (so I noticed a few days ago) as a story by a man in two cultures, his first, and in America. And it is advertised, also, as the first major English language novel by an Afghan or some such. If we're determined to read books translated into English a little background before they're nominated is in order. However, I think I'll just go along for the ride. I like what others in here pick rather well.

Kleo

I did mean to say THANK YOU PAT for putting in the background of the author, I appreciate that!

I agree, great thoughts here this morning: we've chosen our book and author and now let's see on April 1 what we think about this one book, one book at a time. I'm confused, for my part, about much of the history of Afghanistan and I want to understand it before we start. Apparently there was an end of a monarchy 30 years ago or something (I know ABSOLUTELY nothing, but on April 1 I hope to at least be able to say something coherent) the Soviets invaded, and so this startlingly beautiful country plunged into an awful turmoil from which it today has not recovered, so this will, for me, anyway, form a backdrop to understanding what the circumstances are when the first page opens.

Barbara, I hate to admit it and I am sure that I am the only person on earth who has not, but I have never read Isabel Allende. I am so excited about this discussion which will open, at least for me, all sorts of vistas and understandings of other cultures, we'll all be richer (and that's the purpose).

Here's a link that provides information on the Afghan Constitution (it's interesting to read the earlier ones dating back to 1923 with some information about the former Monarchy):

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/world/afghanistan.htm

An interview with Khaled Hosseini:

http://www.newsline.com.pk/Newsnov2003/newsbeat4nov.htm

Historical Information about Afghanistan, the establishment of the Monarchy, and the undertaking by the loya jirga. last year.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107264.html

"...the Soviets invaded, and so this startlingly beautiful country plunged into an awful turmoil from which it today has not recovered, ...."

Uh, there was a major event after the Soviet invasion, a couple, in fact. The Taliban may have filled a vacuum, but they did their own irreparable damage. They are not the first, and not the only post-Soviet complication. One of my uncles has a small carpet with Soviet helicopters and soldiers woven into it, and women in burqas rolling boulders down the Hindu Kush onto the retreating soldiers.

Kleo

Indeed there were other complications for the country and its people in the post-Soviet period. The period of the Taliban are more familiar due to their wide-spread atrocities directed at the Afghans (as well as the landscape) which has been widely reported in the interntaional media. However, I was speculating that events during the earlier period, before the most recent Soviet invasion, are perhaps also not well known to the majority of Westerners (excluding the Brits, who had their own experiences with attempted Colonization in the region), unless they have some personal or professional affiliation with the country, the Afghan people or the border countries.

Some of us get our history through fiction. Who can forget Kim, the Kipling story about THE GAME of espionage as played on the fringes of India when the Brits ruled. Lo and behold, Laurie R King's latest in the saga of Mary Russell (Holmes) is called The Game and one of the leading players is that same Kim, the playground is that part of India which is so close to Russia. And don't forget the impact of movies like The Man Who WOuld be King; wasn't that about Afghanistan? We really know little, but in one sense we have lots of pieces to put together. This is really the fun part of reading, tying up odds and ends to make a new whole.

Nuristan, the area where the Kipling story takes place, after they venture out of India, is the area of Afghanistan that borders Pakistan immediately north of Kabul, and it is on the southern slopes of the Hindu Kush Mountains. People live and farm in the rich soils of the mountain valleys. They weren't Muslims until forced to convert in the late 19th century. I believe they speak Indo-Iranian languages related to Romany. The Soviets never subdued the region. Don't know the administrative subunits of Afghanistan--anyone?

Kleo

All this info was from a quick web search, not pers4000000000000000000000..............., not personal experience with Afghans!

Kleo

Today's San Francisco Chronicle had a story about the popularity of Kite Runner. It turns out that the author lives in Sunnyvale, he is aphysician at Kaiser, his wife is a lawyer for Intel, pure silicon valley. I'll try to creat the appropriate link

The Kite Runner

If I didn't do that the way it should be done, go to SFGate and you will find the article in today's edition.

Yes, the author is a local Afghan.

A little disappointed with the reviewer:

"If anything, he seems buoyed by success and gratified by the way his first book has demystified the Middle East and given a human face to the Afghan people. "

Too bad it didn't demystify any of the millions of Arabs living in the Middle East. Afghanistan is still properly South Asian, not Middle Eastern, although some authorities do group it with the latter--as I said earlier. Calling it Middle Eastern doesn't make it any more Arab, though. Sigh.

Kleo

JACKIE - thanks for the review from the San Francisco Chronicle (a publication, by the way, that I miss dearly, since moving to the East many years ago).

KLEO - I just sent an email to the reviewer gently correcting his placement of Afghanistan in the Middle East. Although unintentional, I'm sure, misplacements like this contribute to the continued geographical confusion of non-specialist readers, especially in the West.

GINNY - I wondered if you had any plans to invite Khaled Hosseini to visit our discussion once it is well underway?

This talk of 'demystification' reminds me of the writings of Karl May a hundred years ago. His tales of travel and adventure throughout the world really left the reader convinced that they too had travelled to those faraway places and now had a pretty good understanding of Arabs, Incas, American Cowboys and Indians, etc, etc. May gave the impression that he was passing along eye-witness accounts, despite never having been anywhere. He pulled it off. An amazing hoax. But what a storyteller, very shrewd and convincing.

You're right, Afghanistan is not the Middle East, but it sure has become part of the problem. And it is becoming perhaps the most strategic area in the world. Still at the hub of the empire-builders' dreams.

As we continue to become more familiar with Afghanistan in preparation for the April 1 discussion, it will certainly be interesting to witness how the relations between Afghanistan and China continue to develop, and whether those relations will pose a threat to the West. Of course, the two countries have dealt with each other for centuries, but without significant public input from Western capitals.

Does this book include China as well?!? Oh my that is a lot of territory to cover in one story...

BARBARA, not to worry. The Kite Runner is a very personal, not a political story. I am presently re-reading it, but I do not recall that China is covered.

Traditions are involved, like the kite running of the title; honor, friendship, family relationsips, the lies people tell each other, and violence.

Perhaps you remember that in November of 2001 I led a discussion of James Mitchener's Caravans , an intriguing book and worth re-reading then in light of what happened on 9/11. The book is fiction but historically accurate, based on Mitchener many stays in the country. In the discussionI wondered aloud of what Mitchener would have said about 9/11 had he lived.
To my regret the discussion was never completed because I ended up in the hospital and had a long recovery afterwards.

We might consider the tribal system in Afghanistan and its importance; the Pashtuns e.g. are mentioned in the Kite Runner.

TRAUDE - I'm glad you mentioned our earlier discussion of Mitchener's CARAVANS, since I have enojyed reading it several times, used it as a reference about the topography of Afghanistan, recommended it to many friends, and made sure that my son had a copy in his kit when he embarked on his deployment to Afghanistan last year. It's a gem! If you ever want to continue that earlier discussion, count me in.

BARBARA - As I've been reading through the posts, I've also been doing some research to refresh my memory. In this context, I came across comments about the relations between Afghanistan and China, which triggered my curiosity.

MAHLIA, hello. Thank you for your thoughts. I too think Mitchener's book is as relevant today as it was when it was written half a century ago or three years ago for that matter. In fact, I believe it is essential reading.

Thank you again.

Thank you all for your wonderful background information, links and ideas! Welcome, Traude! I had forgotten the subject of Caravans!

As this is the book discussion, I've brought here something that Vouzon posted in the Read Around the World parent discussion, where we are about to post a ballot to see how we want the series structured. You are ALL most welcome there, as well.

More on that later, but here it is:

Before 'The Kite Runner' Khaled Hosseini had never written a novel. But with word of mouth, book sales have taken off. When Khaled Hosseini sat down to write 'The Kite Runner', he had no credentials as a writer. An internist at Kaiser in Mountain View, the father of an infant son, he used to rise at 5 a.m. and write for a couple of hours before going to work. Today, the 40-year-old is a publishing phenomenon. His book has sold more than 70,000 in hard cover and more than 1.250,000 in paperback. Last week it hit No.l 1 on the New York Times paperback best-seller list.

The New York Times list is compiled largely from chain bookstores and tends to reflect mainstream commercial tastes. "If TKR hadn't gotten its initial boost from independent booksellers, Hut Landon, executive director of Northern California Independent Booksellers Assoc. sad,"it might never have caught on. It would've gotten lost in the shuffle. TKR appeals to readers because it connects with them in a personal way, no matter what their own upbringing and background."

Because its themes of friendship, betrayal, guilt, redemption and the uneasy love between fathers and sons are universal themes, and not specifically Afghan, Landon says, "the book has been able to reach across cultural, racial, religious and gender gaps to resonate with readers of varying backgrounds."

The gracious, handsome Hosseini is a bit of a star on the book promotion circuit--especially with women who are the primary audience for fiction. Hosseini's wife Roya, is a lawyer with Intel. When they met, she was studying law. Unlike Hosseini, a diplomat's son who lived in Afghanistan and France and emigrated to America in 1980, Roya was born here. They had a "fairly traditional courtship," Hosseini says and married shortly after meeting. Their son, Haris, is 4, their daughter, Farah, is 2.

Currently on a one-year leave from Kaiser, Hosseini is working on his second novel, 'Dreaming in Titanic City'. "It's also set in Afghanistan and deals with its recent history", he reveals. "And it deals in more depth with women's issues than 'TKR' did. "Too often stories about Afghanistan center around the various wars, the opium trade, the war on terrorism," he says. "Precious little is said about the Afghan people themselves---their culture, their traditions, how they lived in the country and how they manage abroad as exiles"

So I think that's great information: it's a first book a new author, a new voice and it's very interesting for us, here, also, particularly these lines: "Because its themes of friendship, betrayal, guilt, redemption and the uneasy love between fathers and sons are universal themes, and not specifically Afghan, "

I think all of great literature does contain universal themes and wouldn't it be interesting to find some while we're looking for other voices! I am excited at the mention of all of those themes, thank you Vouzon!

Mahlia you ask if we have any plans to invite the author here, please do! I think that would be wonderful. At the moment I personally am still tied up with another author, Dr. Lombardo, over his translation of the Iliad but I do wish one of you would give it a try? We would be honored and thrilled to have the author here in any capacity he'd agree to, what an exciting idea! If one of you does wish to be our emissary here, please post here so he won't be deluged with letters.

Thank you also Mahlia and Jackie for those great links!

Jackie you raise an interesting point about how we get our history from fiction, a lot of history IS fiction, isn't it? Ten people can witness ONE accident and have 10 different scenarios, it's always been hard for me, a non historian, to weed out the real skinny, and sometimes the REAL skinny depends on more than one perspective. I hated history as a student, so dry so dull, and it has taken me all these years to realize there is never only one side or perspective, in ANYTHING, people only report their own experience or conclusions. THAT is why this discussion will be so valuable, we can hear a lot of voices and those voices will probably disagree. As always, in any of our discussions, we agree to disagree cordially.

Jonathan! Had never heard of May, you mean he made it all UP? He had never traveled? Wow, what a breach of trust with the reader!! All the more reason for us to hear authentic voices, even if and especially if they don't agree with ours. That goes on both sides, too.

Another good point, Traude on "traditions are involved, like the kite running of the title; honor, friendship, family relationships, the lies people tell each other, and violence." We'll have to get up a list of themes as we see them occurring and then examine them to see which ones are universal and which ones span two cultures and how they differ: this is shaping up to be very exciting. We may also want to make our own conclusions at the end of the book as to the overarching theme or central theme that WE think the book is about: much to ponder and look forward to!!!

I'm very excited about beginning this book on April !, and hope that those of you reading this who would like to explore the book with us will sign, in , please!!

Everyone is more than welcome!!

I just got the book in paperback and started reading. I have to say that I am delighted by all the familiar details, the little surprises for me that contain some additional part of Afghan culture that I know, from living with Afghans for over 30 years. I will share some of the details when they are appropriate in our discussion, if they seem interesting enough to share. I will have to ask if anyone in my famly knows the author, or his wife. I guess I didn't need to study Afghan culture to learn about it. Thanks for picking this book.

Kleo

Sad but wonderful photos showing the difference in Kabul before and since the war years Photos Kabul

And lookie here - it appears that what is now Pakistan was part of Afghanistan at one time Afghanistan Empire

And this map shows where the various ethnic groups or tribes are located - seems that in Kabul there are equal number of Hazara as Pashtun groups Current Afghan map showing distribution of ethnic groups

This site has photos as well as information about the Hazara

Aha this is an interesting bit of info probably explaining why there are so many Pashtuns living in the US --

Afghanistan has traditionally been dominated by the Pashtuns, who before 1978 constituted a 51% minority in the country. However, as a result of the 1979 Soviet invasion the population distribution in Afghanistan has changed. About 85% of the 6.2 million Afghan refugees who fled to Iran and Pakistan and around the World due to the Russian invasion and the war that followed it are Pashtuns. This, accordingly, lowered the percentage of Pashtuns inside Afghanistan temporarily and raised the percentages of the country's other ethnic groups. By the mid-1990s many of the refugees returned restoring the Pashtuns to their status of the largest ethnic group in Afghanistan constituting about 45% of the population.

And further I learned reading that there are two lines of Pashtuns - one being in Afghanistan and the other Pakistan - it was also a Pashtun, Ahmad Shah (1722-72), Abdali Durrani. First Emir of Afghanistan and founder of the Sadozai dynasty of the Abdali tribe who He seized Kabul, fought the Moghuls taking the territories west of the Indus. He added Kashmir, Sind, and the Western Punjab to his domains and founded an empire which extended from eastern Persia to northern India and from the Ammu Darya to the Indian Ocean. In 1756 he occupied Delhi and carried off as much wealth as possible, thereby enriching his treasury. By 1761, his kingdom was larger than present Afghanistan.

Aha and so he was the one who created the kingdom that was shown as the Afghan Empire in the map above.

OK it looks like Afghanistan was a pawn that helped Britain as a buffer between India and Russia - this area has been in contention between the two at various times subce the very early 1800s. Then in 1893 the British created the Durand Line separating Afghanistan from India and slicing right through the Pashtun territory.

The Chinese connection appears to be that Afghanistan was controlled by the Mongols. Looks like after the Blue Horde collapsed it was obsorbed along with the White Horde into the Golden Horde which following the Silk Routes captured and controlled great chunks of Europe and the Middle East including Afghanistan, Iran and what is now Iraq and Syria.

It seems Kabul was made the capital of the Moghul Empire by the conqueror Babur in 1504. Although Delhi replaced it as the imperial capital in 1526, Kabul remained an important Moghul center until it was captured, in 1738, by the Persian ruler Nadir Shah.

The last king of Afghanistan was King Zahir Shah. It was in the mid-1970s while King Zahir Shah was in Europe that a military coup d'etat led by Daud Khan ended the monarchy and a republic was created. Daud Khan became the first president and prime minister.

Here is a fun map showing the Routes of the Silk Road with Kabul right there in the center of a major cross road.

Well I'll be - this must be the beginning of a site I was enchanted with and moved back and forth between to learn so much - this shows the faces of men from the various ethnic groups in Afghanistan

I just read every single one of your posts here and I am overwhelmed with how fortunate we are to have the people that are here in this discussion. Persian (Mahlia) is well-informed and acqainted with this culture and Kleo is our very own personal resource person for straightforward information. It never ceases to amaze me the voluminous and expansive networking that is created when we chose a book to read. Barbara always provides insturctive learning with the URLs she provides and ginny is a pro of bringing it all together, encouraging each of us to speak to one another- not AT one another. It is an art that has been created in our candid book discussions and I always feel so affected by the realm of knowledge that is shared.

I remember reading the Times, trying to learn about the topography and the history of Afghanistan when the communist invasion began and recently jogged my memory of the struggles while reading Winter in Kandahar by Steven Wilson.
I am anxious for us to begin.

I don't have my book yet (whine, whine). Every day I go to the mailbox, and no luck.

Barbara--

Could you give more detail what you mean by this:

"The Chinese connection appears to be that Afghanistan was controlled by the Mongols."

The Mongols controlled Afghanistan and China and a whole lot of other places at various times--and the Chinese controlled the Mongols for a very long time, and still have power over Tibet. Is that the Chinese connection, that they were both controlled, along with many other countries, by various Mongol leaders?

Thanks for all the links!

Kleo

I've asked some family members if they know the author or the book. None of them do. However, some of them want to read the book. I am giving the title or copies of the book to some of the family who want to read the book and read English. However, the book is not available in Dari or Urdu or Pashtun or any of the various languages many of the older Afghans read--Arabic, too. I will have to see what I can do.

It's interesting that the Pashtuns were the most terrorized under the Taliban, who are Pashtuns. The Taliban can't even get the basics of terror right: terrorize the other ethnic groups. It's simply stunning who can gain power to destroy others.

Kleo

Pashtuns are the people who live in eastern Afghanistan and northern Pakistan. Tajiks live in Afghanistan, Tajikistan and, hmmm, Uzbekistan, I think.

There are many other ethnic groups, shown in Barbara's links. I was thinking about the Afghan/Jewish food connection, and wanted to point out that many more Jews have lived in Iran than in Afghanistan, traditionally, and maybe the connection is Persian/Jewish food, not necessarily Afghan/Jewish. I will have to ask around about this. It is something Americans don't seem to know, that many Iranians are Jewish. The food at the recipe site, however, was Afghan, not Iranian. They eat some of the same food, but not exactly. The dishes all listed were familiar everyday Afghan foods.

Kleo

Yes Kleo that is what I thought - since China was brought up as being in the book I couldn't understand how they would fit - and then to learn that one group - was it the Hazara - at any rate, one group was described as having facial features similar to someone from China - or did I read that in the book - someplace I read it - and so I was interested when I saw in the history of Afghanistan that the Mongolian Horde had control of this land. I knew they had been in the Baltics and in parts of Russia but until recent history this was not a part of the world I knew much about -

Interesting though when reading of the wars and changes of leaders in Afghanistan, it plays out like any area of the world - the only difference is the names and knowing the meaning of certain words - like Caliph which I am still not sure what a Caliph really is or means.

Also, didn't realize that the Shiia have only been practicing their form of the Muslim religion since the 14th century. I know there is a difference in who they think was the rightful head of the religion after the death of Mohammed but I wonder what started the group to break away - they couldn't have woken up one morning and say essentially, "we followed the wrong leader back a couple of hundred years ago so we must redo how we pray and follow this other descendant's leadership."

But that would be a difference wouldn't it between the Hazara and the Pashtun, one being Shiia and the other Sunni.

Was the Talaban one or the other or were they just a political group who controlled the war lords?

Kleo -- Be sure you encourage your family members who read the book (and use the Internet) to join in.
Ali Ali Infree. (A character on p.173 of the book, of course.)

The Hazara look somewhat Mongolian, not Chinese, and their language, a dialect of Farsi, has some Mongolian words or root words in it. Mongols are not Chinese, but rather related to Koreans and Tibetans--I don't know how distantly, and can't find any source on this on the Internet with a quick search. Although I think the vast majority of Hazara are the main group of Shiia, not all Hazara are Shiia. In fact, I have only met Suni Hazara--I did confirm this with a family member, because it is one of the details, not being a Muslim, that I might get mixed up. I don't know of any Tajiks who are anything but Suni, but Hazara are mostly Shiia, with some Suni. Afghans consider the Hazara descendants of the Mongol Hordes. This, however, is not completely accepted by scholars because there is good evidence that their ancestors lived in Central Afghanistan before the arrival of Mongols.

The difference between Suni and Shiia Islam? Egads, maybe Mahlia can handle this one? Everything I've ever read has made the Suni sound like Shiia and vice versa. For example, westerners tend to thing of Shiia Muslims as the group that would be less inclined to western forms of government--when the opposite is what is true from the basis of the religions. From personal observation? Shiia do have hierarchal leaderships. Suni tend to only have a priest who has no particular status, other than respect for what he does. Iranian and Iraqi Muslims are largely Shiia, Iran having a larger percentage. Azerbajan is almost entirely Shiia Muslim. Mahlia? Help?

Caliph? Well, I think of caliph as the Muslim version of Pope. However, Muslims are not united, due to the split by Shiia, behind who the first caliph was. Wait, this is beginning to sound a lot like Roman Catholics and Orthodox, without the leaders! My, my, religions. Historically there have been caliphs until early in the 20th century with the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire after WWI.

Kleo

So, I will have to get to the point where I find China in the book. Afghans in my family never call the Hazara descendents of Chinese, or say they look Chinese. No matter how poor their English, they always make sure the word they use translates Mongol, not Chinese. However, I wonder if this could be the author using the word Chinese instead of Mongol, to mean Asiatic as opposed to Western? Let's see what we find out, Barbara! Do jot down a page number or chapter, or post one, when we get to that stage in the reading.

Kevin, I will try to get some family members in here. However, it is the older folks who want to read the book, who don't speak English. The younger folks hardly have a minute to spare, as most young Afghans in my family work 60 hours a week at a job, and live as Afghans the rest of the time, foregoing sleep to do so. I have one cousin who will be reading with us, but probably won't post.

Kleo

I forgot to say, the Hazara I have met look Persian (generic white folk with black hair), not Mongol at all. This could be my inability to see it. Or my limited exposure to Hazara. I looked very Russian when I was younger, but Russians and Asians easily guess that I am at least part Asian. It's not something I can see.

The Russians never got the Hazara under control.

On the other hand, Tajiks are mostly mistaken for Western Hemisphere Hispanics.

The Taliban are Pashtuns, although their tie is their belonging to a Suni sect similar to the wahhabis of Saudi Arabia, not their ethnicity. They are extremely anti-Shiia. They were mostly uneducated child rapists and murderers using religion as a pretense to terror because of their fear of the unknown, and, due to their being extremely poorly educated, the immensity of the unknown to them. However!, their rise to power was largely due to their ability to control the warlords during the Civil War following the withdrawal of the Soviet Union, as Barbara points out. This is extremely complicated by the interference in internal Afghan affairs by the US and Soviet empires during the Cold War, and by later attempts to influence Afghanistan by the US, Pakistan, and the Saudi government and a billion other things.

Afghanistan is one of the most ethnically diverse places on the planet Earth. Everyone is probably limited in their knowledge of Afghanistan by the fact that the more you know, the more complex it gets. I have tried to fact check a couple of things, only to find out that the background is so lengthy and complex that I could spend my whole life researching a single post.

Kleo

but learning so much from the posts I hardly need it. . . . claire

If if wasn't so frustrating, I'd laugh that B&N put all their copies on reserve the day after we chose Kite Runner. I guess they were expecting a deluge of requests. We're so lucky to have in-house experts and our own class clown, and Ginny to try to keep us all in order. What fun!

My book is not here yet either. It has been shipped though. It is supposed to be here by Monday.

We are lucky to have so many knowledgeable people in this discussion. I am really glad to be learning so much about Afghanistan.

Joan Grimes

Thank you, Kleo, for your enthusiasm and sharing your experience with us, I agree, Joan G, and Claire, this is going to be wonderful and I agree with Kevin, we'd love to welcome anybody here with any knowledge of Afghanistan, and I hope they will come in!

And we'd also love to have those readers who don't know Afghanistan from Detroit, too: you're all welcome to enjoy this incredible book and to learn more about the culture expressed in it. I loved what Andrea said in her post about our book discussions.

Thank you Barbara for those great URLS and questions and, Jackie, I love the way you sum things up so well and seem to have always the great overview. It's a pleasure to read the fine posts here. (Can't I be the Class Clown?) hahahaa

Andrea, welcome back and I especially love what you said about people talking with each, other not at each other, love that. That whole post is a beautiful thing, another pleasure to read.

This is going to be quite an experience, I'm really looking forward to it. I hope we'll pick up some more new readers here as well, I just had an email from one today who is going to be coming in and out and how glad we will be to see her! Everyone is welcome, DEW drop by, see if you can even GET the book, and plan to enjoy this one with us.

Everyone is welcome!

Hmmm, I see some of us live in more remote places than others. My local B&N had it in hardcover, paperback on the best-sellers shelf, and on CD. I bought it at another B&N where it had all 3 also. I kinda wanted to listen to it, but I still can't manage books on CD, only on tape where I can rewind to my heart's content.

I'm glad that I live in a country where an immigrant can write a book about growing up in his native land, in his new-found language, and have the whole world talking about it,

Kleo

I sent an invitation this afternoon to the Dean of the International Program and Center for the Study of Afghanistan at the University of Nebraska, Omaha, inviting him to visit with us occasionally. He is an American who lived in Afghanistan for many years, fluent in the languages and familair with the cultures of the diverse ethnic commmunities in the country. I also asked if he would alert several of his faculty who may contribute occasionally to our discussion. And I sent a similar invitation to several of my Afghan friends in Washington.

do you think they will be buying books too??? I haven't checked out my library yet but I imagine all of orange county may have one or two and they will be in use. Ginnie you type fast how about giving us the first few paragraphs from your book. . . Claire (s)

I read the book when it come out as a Discover pick. I was so taken in by the story, I recommended it to a local book club leader. After the group read the book, the leader sent me a card to tell me how much they liked it. I usually don't recommend books because few people like the books that I like. However I talked about it so much that one lady, (who I don't see eye-to-eye on book selections) decided to read it. One day at the health club she made a point of stopping to tell me that she sent an e-mail recommending it to her daughter. On the day that she read it, she told her husband he had to get his own dinner because she had to finish reading the book.

It is always helpful to know the background history of the book you are reading. But for this book I say just enjoy the story. The dynamics of the various relationships are fascinating. I read a major portion of the book on a city bus at my own risk-I cried a lot.

When it first came out in paperback, the Barnes and Noble I worked at stocked several. The last time I went to buy a copy they only had one. I was buying the book as a gift. I still recommend it to other people.

SHOWDOG, thank you for your excellent post. You are right on!

I've tried to say the same thing earlier, but you said it so much better. This is not so much a national as a human story and should be read as such. It does move one to tears but is never maudlin or sentimental.

Oh my book is coming today! I just checked the tracking and it is our for delivery. They had said before that it would be Monday. So I will be able to get started on it. I am really looking forward to reading it.

Joan Grimes

There have been so many interesting links posted in this discussion. Would it be possible to have a page listing the links, for more convenient access?

No book yet. My friend who is lending it is out of town. As long as she returns before I leave town. . . .

Mahlia, I think I'll try to follow your suggestion about Caravans and read some of it also, if I can find a used paperback copy.

If anyone wants a textbook and tapes to learn Dari from I hear that the one published by the University of Nebraska at Omaha is excellent. I have seen it, but was not interested in the written language at the time. It is a dense academic tome and costs about $80, plus there are tapes to accompany it for an additional sum. I am learning to read and write Dari with the help, right now, of a small guide avaialable through bookstores. It is hard to learn the script because I am unfamiliar with Arabic writing, so I am using an Arabic writing guide, plus one of the Afghans due in from Pakistan will be helping me soon. Many of the older folks write in Dari, but quite a number are illiterate. The ones who lived in Pakistan in refugee camps did not go to school. Some lived in various cities in Pakistan and learned Urdu in school.

I have to disagree with your comment, Traude, that there is any 'should' about how this book (or any book) is read. This is one reason I love books, I can read them any way I want to. One of my favorite examples for this is an author you mentioned earlier, Michener. Although I enjoy getting a lot of history from his books and exploring the histories he brings up, I actually prefer to read his books as just plain stories. I prefer to read most books for the human stories. But I understand that others get different things from books, and may be reading Caravans, for example, as an introduction to the nation and the people, rather than the story of a girl yearning for something. However much I love reading a book for just the story, I think that Barbara and Mahlia will get so much out of the reading from their research into the culture and history of Afghanistan that can only enhance the story for them.

So does Afghanistan or Afghan culture play no role in the story? It seems to play quite a role so far. This is just setting, then? Ah, we can discuss this when the reading opens. It's hard not to be impatient, though.

Ultimately the best literature is of human culture, not of a specific culture.

Kleo

I finished reading Kite Runner last night and am extremely sad. The author offers such an indepth, true description of the culture that I was reminded of many long ago events I'd forgotten - some for the better, no doubt. My sadness will pass and I'm encouraged that the book is so well written in terms of its human endeavors. Right on about the Pashtun sense of nang and namoos (honor and pride) and, in the end, Zendagi migzara (life goes on).

Some time ago, I sent a paperback copy to a friend in Azerbaijan and he just emailed that he and two members of his family read the book and were astonished at the detailed writing. He ended his message with "Only an Afghan could write about his homeland like that. No one else could." And one of my female Afghan friends in Washington called to let me know that she was crying as she read; but she kept reading (as I did). Make no mistake: this book contains searing descriptions of the atrocities humans inflict on those more vulnerable, but also the wonderful kindnesses shown by others which, afterall, is what life is all about.

My book/ CD is here. I have decided that I am going to have to have a print copy of the book to participate in a discussion. It will be easier to find things that one wishes to talk about. I just went to Barnes and Noble online and ordered a hardback copy. Since I will be in France when the discussion starts I am sure the hardback will be here when I get into the discussion. In fact it should arrive well before I leave on the 27th.

When I ordered the CD I did not realize it is read by the author. That is another good reason to have it.

Joan Grimes

Joan--

Please tell me how the CD goes as soon as you start listening! I think from what I have read so far it would be an excellent book to listen to.

Afghans in America have many sounds that I love, one of which is during a mourning the family priest comes to the house and reads the Koran--it is a very comforting sound to me, even though I have only heard it in times of sorrow. (Also, of course, at the mosque I hear the sounds of praying.)

I hope it is a wonderful book to listen to you for those who choose to.

Kleo

this book sounds like a tough thing to get through emotionally. maybe I'll just read something else. . . ta ta claire

Au revoir, Claire! Je suis sorry vous chosez to listen au le sound seulement et didn't readez to voir pour yourself parce que maybe vous would have aimezed it, mais ça c'est life!

Wish you would stay Claire. But to each his own.

I began listening to the book last Night Kleo. It is lovely. It opens with music and the author's voice is very pleasant. I did not do much of it but will continue as I can. I have also ordered the hard back copy of it. So that I can keep up with the pages when people are talking about it and also so that if I decide to participate in discussing it I can reference pages easily. I wish my eyes were in a condition that I could just pick up a book and read it. I miss that so much. Oh well enough for now.

Joan Grimes

What a great thought! I would love to be able to listen to the author's voice now that I have read the story. I am sure that that would add to the delight of this novel.

Thank you all for this wonderful input and enthusiasm! I am sorry, Claire that you think you will not be able to read with us this time, maybe next time, thanks for looking in.

(Can you all read this font color?)!!??

We'll want to adhere to our schedule here in talking about the book, please, and in that way our impressions will be fresh as we go along, and, as always, we are only about YOUR impressions of the book. We need not love it, we need not hate it, our purpose is not to come to a consensus but to express our own wonder and thoughts at every juncture. That's what we're about here in our Book discussions. I agree with Kleo in that we each read and approach a book in our own way, and when you think about it, it's amazing that we can even agree to talk cordially about it, much less agree to disagree.

We don't correct others or criticize their thoughts, we each say what's on OUR collective minds, in a cordial atmosphere and if we disagree, and we will, we do it cordially. Everybody is entitled to express whatever opinion they have, in the given schedule we're discussing, that is.

Kite Runner, as most books, has a nifty Reader's Guide on the internet put out by Penguin, let's see how much more thorough ours is when we get thru, we have been doing this for 9 years, through more than 500 books, we know what we're doing, but we'll use theirs, too, no Stone Unturned Dept. I bet you YOU all will add more than any Reader's Guide would ever imagine, let's find out!

Mahlia, what exciting news, do let us know what the Dean says! We hope many will join us here. I know in the past we have been honored to have many distinguished faculty visiting with us and they all love our discussions, in fact Dr. Mark Stone was most complimentary in his actual class recently on our Iliad discussion, I am not sure many people realize what we actually do here, online, but it's very heartening to hear the response occasionally, very! I hope they will be able to come in, thank you for doing that!

Showdog (Diane?) welcome to the discussion, I am in agreement with your feelings on discussing the book and am anxious to get to it. This pre period has been most useful in whipping up enthusiasm and isn't it interesting how different we all are as readers? One thing in the book will trigger something in us and that's what makes these collaborations so wonderful!

Pedln, yes, an excellent suggestion that we have a link page here, I've been asking but so far no takers for people to collect them for me and help keep collecting them as they come in, it's a big job, actually, you'd be surprised, but so far no takers. I think it's a super idea, we'll list them by the person submitting them, a nice record. Here's another one, I like this one, it's a link to tons of resources on the book: The Kite Runner: Related Links

Kleo thank you for that notice about the Dari instructional tapes, how interesting, from the U of Nebraska!

Traude, thank you for reminding us of the human elements in the book, as well. I hope, as previously said, to get up a list of the themes we see in the book and see where they are universal, and where not. Certainly the relationship of fathers and sons, and loyalty will be on that list as well, human attributes. In thinking about it, those are themes of Pearl Buck's books, also, aren't they? Heck, both those themes are paramount in Remains of the Day, too. I like Comparative Literature.

Joan, glad your CD got there. I looked yesterday in the huge B&N in Columbia SC but they did not have one (apparently sold out). I agree with Andrea, I'd like to hear his voice.

I'm kind of excited about our first offering here. The Parent Discussion, the Original Read Around the World Discussion, is about to take a vote on how the future selections (of which this is, hopefully, only the first one) will be offered, you are invited there to take the poll as soon as we finalize it, Jane does beautiful polls for people to vote on. Just hit the underlined Books & Literature found on the top and bottom of every page in the list of links and scroll down to find it, and join in there, as well!

Everybody's talking about this book: bring your book, read the first 110 pages by April 1, and let's get into it! Don't be "fooled," this is going to be a great one! Everyone is welcome!

I would like to second the "thanks" to Jane for all her hard work on the polls. Also to Jackie for her kindness. And Ginny for her industriousness with the keyboard. And Kleo and Persian for their sagacity on topics exotic. And all the other voices here for caring enough to give voice in here.

Since no one else has volunteered, I'll try to go back and gather all the links onto one page that can be a single link.

It'll take me a bit of time.

Thanks, Kevin.

jane

THANK you Jane, much appreciated, Jane makes the prettiest HTML pages, I bet you there are 50 URL's if there is one, many thanks, that will make a great resource page linked in the heading.

I know in a former discussion somebody came in just to say they thought that was a fabulous idea, to put up all the links in one place, along with the name of who found it: many thanks!

Thank you Kevin, that's the first time my keyboarding has evinced any comment, appreciate that, thank ALL of you for your input, I agree, we're off to a super start!

The Jews of Afghanistan were discussed here so this article from the Washington Post foreign correspondent tells the story of the 'one' Jew left in that country after the death of the 'other' Jew who was found there after the invasion in 2001.

The last man to leave can turn off the lights

This article also from the Post describes what is happening in Afghanistan at the present time. It poses the question, would you give up security for yourself and your family for a VCR? Must there be a choice between Warlords or religious police? The Warlords are in control now and that civil war that was fought in the 1990's is brewing again.

Warlords again rule Afghanistan

Fifi

Well, that was an amusing article about how a person (lol, person, not a man, a person!) could walk "the city carrying quantities of cash and drive roads long after dark without fear." The Taliban, above all else were thieves. They had to steal everything of value in Afghanistan (the Torah mentioned in the other article) and sell Afghanistan to the Arabs because they had no means of making money other than stealing. I suspect they destroyed the buddhas in a fit of pique that the statues were immobile and too big to carry off and sell to any bidder. No one had 'quantities of cash' to carry around under the Taliban.

What's with the Washington Post? The article was not even internally consistent. The introduction just reads like propaganda, but then it discusses some of the truth of the situation, then closes with paragraphs of rumor. I suppose if it was Michael Jackson we would find testimonial quotes with names, in a couple of hundred newspapers, all over television and radio, and on the Internet. But, Afghanistan? War? Innuendo is all the world merits from the American press.

There are still people alive in Russia who wish for the days of Stalin. Neo-nazism is ever present in Germany. Why should it be news that some folks in Afghanistan disagree with the current regime by wishing for the past, no matter how awful? Does distance bring clarity?

I think kind of reporting undermines the true danger of the warlords in Afghanistan. It is easy to conclude that the whole article is based on rumors and spin.

I am reading a book on Soviet pseudoscience. Almost without exception those who show-try, convict, and execute the made up enemies of the state in the 20s and 30s, become future enemies of the state for others to show-try, convict and execute in the 30s and 40s. My, my, what will happen in the 50s to those conducting the show trials in the 30s and 40s? The suspense is not killing me. Safety under tyranny? You may be safe today, but you will be the enemy of the state tomorrow. Too many did not live through the Taliban to cast votes on their return.

The people of Singapore have clean and safe streets, also. One has to decide the price.

Herat is an interesting city. Afghans in that area sometimes marry Iranians. One summer, a few years ago, one of the Afghan teenagers went to Afghanistan with her mother to visit family around Herat. They had to sneak into Iran, to visit family there, paying coyotes to take them across the heavily watched border, during changes of the armed guards. All went well going over, On the way back into Afghanistan, though, the mother made it safely across the border, and the daughter got caught by an Iranian border guard. Here she is, an American high school freshman last week, and this moment at threat of losing her life to an armed Iranian teenager! Her older sister probably 20) had waited with her, until it was her younger sister's turn to cross the border. The older sister thought quickly and started screaming at the top of her lungs at the Iranian boy, telling him to leave her daughter alone, how dare he even look at her daughter. The guard fled in fear. The younger returned to English, math, and American history classes at the local high school.

Thanks for the links, Fifi. It is sad to know that the entire Jewish population of Kabul is probably down to one man.

Kleo

"Ultimately the best literature is of human culture, not of a specific culture"

What an excellent way to put it. And very appropriate to the Kite Runner. I think it has done one of the best jobs I've seen in combining a universal story with a feel for time and place.

I was very interested in the pictures of men from the different ethnic groups in Afghanistan. As an outsider, I couldn't tell them apart at all. In the Kite Runner, everyone Afghan always knows as soon as they meet someone what ethnic group they belong to, but I bet I (and most Westerners) wouldn't have a clue that there were even ethnic differences.

GINNY: I can read the blue color, but it's really uncomfortable.

Afghan boys homeless in Karachi

I have done lots of research about the Hazara and the servant status or really slavery that holds them to their masters the Pashtun -

The author is no Faulkner but,the story could easily be a story of a southern white plantation owner like Jefferson or Faulkner's own great-grandfather, Colonel William Clark Falkner, the "old colonel"-.

Take the story further into the American Civil War and how would a slave owner be concerned for his beloved slave. Until I read the history of how the Hazara were enslaved by the Pashtun I was emotionally supportive of the protagonist - now I look at this story with different eyes. I think the whole story is an allegory for the history and politics of Afghanistan.

Here are a couple of the links - there are many - that give a history of the enslavement of the Hazara. They were 'supposed' to be freed in 1919...! But still seem to have the status similar to a black man living in a big city in the US.

Keep reading this colorful site - at first it appears to be about carpets but soon turns into the place of the Hazara in Afghan society
Hazara Slave Kilim

The Hazara

The Hazara of Afghanistan

Hazara Uprising

Thank you Barbara and Fifi for those articles. I have printed out the two from the Washington Post, since one of them was just done on March 18, to see if I can figure out anything of what we're talking about here. Thank you Kleo for that perspective.

Unlike what appears to be the majority of you, I have no earthly idea about Taliban, Hazara, Afghanistan, or anything else. I had hoped that this discussion will enlighten me, but I come into it completely blind.

What I think might help and what I am hearing from some of our readers who are likewise perplexed and somewhat intimidated about these various terms and things we're discussing now is for just a brief outline, of one side of the story just for starters, to get us all more comfortable. If there are other sides of the story, we'll include them too, in the outline, a different font.

As we noted originally, most of us can't even form questions FOR a Survey, and even tho this is not a class in the history of Afghanistan, it, I think, would be helpful to some of us to have some background for starters, which we can refer to here just for brief reference. If these questions don't cover IT for you, please add your own, we'll put our own Outline on Afghanistan in the heading as a help for our readers.

So I would like to pose the following questions, out of my sheer ignorance (which, apparently, according to my email, a lot of you share) which will allow us to get a brief précis of what's going on and then if we would like we can continue to follow up in the very informative links provided.

1. What is the current government of Afghanistan? Who controls it?

2. Is there one predominant ethnic group in Afghanistan? What is the breakdown of different factions?

3.. What is the current role of the Soviet Union in Afghanistan? Are there still pockets of resistance and Afghani fighters?

4. Who or what are the Taliban?

5. What is the predominant religion of Afghanistan?

6. Can you list the stages in government of Afghanistan, for instance apparently there was a monarchy, when and why did it end? Will you list the dates?

7. Why is Afghanistan important to us? Why do we need to know about it rather, say, than Rwanda?

What else? What other questions do those of you reading this have?

We are about to embark on a journey, it should be a rich one, we'll read a wonderful book, and we'll learn, incidentally, of the culture of the people in each country we visit along the way.

It is OK not to know anything about Afghanistan? It is OK to learn here, in fact, that's why we're doing this. If some of you want to answer those questions, please do. If some of you are reading this and feeling "out of it" because you can't discuss Afghanistan comfortably, let's fix that, I can't either. There are a lot of countries in this world. Most of us have not traveled to Afghanistan and know very little about it except that it seems to be in the news constantly. Let's find out why! Hopefully a brief outline will help us.

GINNY, the answer to most of your questions can be found on the net, I believe.

Regarding "Afghani" :

One born in Afghanistan is called an Afghan.

Afghani is the name of the country's currency .

That is mentioned in Michener's "Caravans".

Thank you, Traude, for that correction.

Oh yes you can find anything on the internet, can't you? I'm hoping that our readers here might enjoy and utilize the small outline form just for our use, without having to first read 900000 pages of information which is often conflicting, let's find out. When you're trying to learn something, sometimes it helps to start from Square One?

I think some Fact Facts are something that we would get a lot of use out of.

Two weeks ago I would not have been able to answer any of the questions except by the limiting information I had from the media -

When the media speaks of Afghanistan now I understand the conflicts within the the nation are bundled and ignored so that the country is only considered as a place our troops have been sent to root out the bad guys which we have been given to understand are the Talaban, the war Lords, and to find Osama - we knew nothing about the civil war within Afghanistan nor the the differences between the various ethnic groups within Afghanistan and how those differences play out.

As to why Afghanistan rather than Rowanda - who knows - because Osama hid in Afghanistan and had training camps there - because the US wants to encircle Iran - are two of the reasons I can think of - but we only have a very limited force stationed in Afghanistan and much of the money that was requested and earmarked for Afghanistan has been used in Iraq - We waited weeks to even start the search for Osama - the latest, no one knows where he is - and the slaughter of the Talaban after they were captured is now becoming an issue that could yet end up in the Hague.

I think to answer that question we would be answering the question that most of the best news analysts of the day are still not able to answer.

GINNY - I'd like to encourage posters in this discussion who are basically unfamiliar with Afghanistan, its cultures and people, to read through the link (in the heading) which you posted to help us learn how to post links: A History of Afghanistan from the Univ. of Kansas. Many of the questions you posed can be answered from the info. in that one link.

I'd also like to encourage those posters whom you mentioned had contacted you about not being well informed about Afghanistan. THIS IS A DISCUSSION, which we are all looking forward to and hope to learn from each others' perceptions and understanding of what we read. We're not going to be tested on our understanding (unless you are planning a surprise at the end of the discussion); thus, we are free to read, discuss, learn, accept, reject, like or dislike what we learn. The book is written clearly and with alot of emotion. And from the emotional sense, it is a tough read, but not from the intellectual standpoint. I'm confident that posters who approach this discussion from the standpoint of something new - an area of the world with which they are unfamiliar, but which has been in the international news alot and one in which we Americans have sent our soldiers onto the soil - will find the book interesting. Now to some of your questions:

The differences in ethnic groups can be found - in wonderful photos - in the link posted a while back about the DIFFERENT groups. And the stats about the groups can also be found in one of the recent links posted here. Since the links are going to be collected in one place, it certainly will be easy to access them. And ALL of the links I've read through in this discussion so far have been full of information that a non-specialist would enjoy.

The majority of Afghans are Muslim, although many years ago there was a substantial Jewish population in the country, whose lineage goes back to the Middle Eastern traders who followed the Silk Route from West to East, paused along the way and often intermarried. This is also common in the Western provinces of China, where one can meet a vendor (as I did) who appears Asian, carries Muslim prayer beads, dresses in flowing (and very dusty) long robes and turban, speaks fluent Arabic, Farsi, Dari, Urdu, Mongolian, Chinese, Russian, Turkish AND HEBREW.

As we all know from the international press, the current "leader" of Afghanistan is Hamid Kharzai, a wealthy man, whose family has been well established for many generations in Southern Afghanistan. His political clout is more impressive in his home region, than in the North, but he is favored by Washington and the Europeans, and he "banks that political capital" as much as possible.

However, make no mistake about who REALLY rules Afghanistan, especially in the North and Northeast: the Warlords, who are the tribal and clan chiefs from numerous communities throughout the country. Even the country's Supreme Court cannot, in many cases over rule the Warlords.

Although Russia lost its attempts to control Afghanistan militarily and pulled its troops out, there are still trade relations with various sectors, especially along the Northern border with the 'Stans or NIS (Newly Independent States) those areas formerly a part of the Soviet Union.

Why is Afghanistan important to the USA? Do you want Washington's answer or the "boots on the ground" answer? From Washington, we hear that Afghanistan (as a country) is "entitled to democracy" and "to be rid of the Taliban." Indeed that may be true, but do the Afghans want that for themselves? Some do, some don't, others have no idea what freedom in the Western sense really means, or the responsibilities that go along with it.

Every Afghan woman I've ever met or known would like to have the Taliban erased from the face of the earth in one fell swoop! Their ignorance and absurd harshness of their interpretation of Islam is just beyond the pale. Barbaric is just too understated a word to describe the Taliban. And their harshness towards women in particular, but also to children (especially little boys who are often adopted for temporary sexual pleasures) just cannot be tolerated once one is informed.

The political side of wanting the Taliban to remain in Afghanistan comes from the fears of many Afghans of "what's out there in the world." The Taliban is the "known" misery, but what will the Americans and Europeans bring to the country? More misery, but just of a different kind, like the horrendous destructions from the bombing, the mistakes in killing innocent Afghans by American military patrols, heavily armed, but unfamiliar with the culture, language, posturing of the locals, and too often startled by being approached. As was mentioned earlier, Afghans are closeknit; they stand close to each other when they talk, absolutely do not like to be alone, cannot understand why anyone would want to be alone or have a moment's peace and quiet. Thus many interactions between Westerners and Afghans is misunderstood - from both sides.

As far as the Monarchy is concerned, again that is covered in the info. contained in the link which you posted in the heading. The most recent Monarch is very elderly. He spent some time in Afghanistan when Hamid Karzai was in the process of being "voted" into his current position. He also called a loya jirga to give all factions in Afghanistan a chance to be heard. The politics of that group must have been mind boggling, but it was important to let folks have their say. - or, more likely, to allow the Warlords to instruct those who sat in the loya jirga and represented them to know how they should speak and what they should say. Really, not too different from Congress and the influence (or not) of the various constituencies throughout the USA.

Hope some of this information helps other posters. By the way, I, too, find the colored text uncomfortable to read. My recent eye surgery was successful, but colored text is hard for me to read from for more than a few words. It really strains my eyes. I'd much prefer regular black text.

Thank you, MAHLIA, for explaining the background at such length. Allow me to add:

The fact is that the Russians were in Afghanistan for almost a decade - until the end of the Cold War in fact, and then unceremoniously withdrew their troops.

All that time, we, the Americans, clandestinely supported Osama bin Laden and his cohorts, who fought the Russians just as they are fighting us now.

The monarchy was abolished by a coup d'état when the king was in Italy (the date is in our book). For a while there was talk of a 'republic', and that too is in the book.

We went into Afghanistan after 9/11 to strike back at international terrorism, which was certainly justified. The ultra-conservative Taliban no longer rule the country, but many are congregating just over the border in Pakistan, more are being recruited every day and are a constant menace. They are devout Muslims and Islam is the dominant faith in Afghanistan.

As MAHLIA said, and as I tried to indicate before, this is a human story about human actions, reactions and emotions, more about people than about the country.

First, thank you Traude, for correcting the use of Afghan vs afghani. I posted this earlier, and I would like to see in the heading. It's my bit of pickiness.

As Barbara points out, and as I elaborate, if we could answer all of these questions we would be sitting in the White House or at the Joint Chiefs providing analyses on Afghanistan without a moment to spare for a book club!!!!

As Mahlia points out these are generally covered at the excellent links by the University of Kansas. I think, however, for those looking for a brief introduction, Wikipedia might be the place to start:

Afghanistan Wiki

I'm thinking I misunderstand you, Ginny. How can you learn about Afghanistan (by reading Kite Runner) if you don't learn about Afghanistan (by reading Kite Runner) because you haven't already learned about Afghanistan (by reading Kite Runner)? Let's do straighten out if this is the case, or rather that a brief introduction to terms, a printable glossary, might be helpful?

Possibly including Traude's quote about this being a human story in the header might help? Maybe with a note that folks that know nothing about Afghanistan, including where it is or the fact that Afghans are not Arabs, are in the huge majority, also.

Mahlia's comments reflect my attitude towards the Taliban, as I hang out with lots of Afghan women all of the time:

"Every Afghan woman I've ever met or known would like to have the Taliban erased from the face of the earth in one fell swoop! "

When an American general was quoted as saying he liked to kill Taliban or something the Afghan women I know were furious when they heard this. They could not imagine how he would be granted this right while they were denied it.

And, yes, rape of young boys by Taliban was common. Also rape of young Afghan girls by Taliban, but largely by Arabs sponsored by the Taliban. One of my cousin's cousins bribed the local warlord with everything they owned and everything they could get their hands on to steal their young daughter out of Afghanistan when it was arranged for her "to marry" an Arab, because this only meant she would be raped and abandoned. They lived for years in a refugee camp in Pakistan, starving to death. They knew their fate and that it was worth the sun and the moon not to have their daughter destroyed in such an inhuman way.

Kleo

There is not one predominant ethnic group in Afghanistan. The Pashtuns, Pashto speaking peoples of east Afghanistan and northwest Pakistan are the largest, followed closely by the Tajiks, Dari (a dialect of Persian) speaking peoples living throughout Afghanistan, but also in Tajikistan and one other country, the Hazara speak a dialect of Persian with many Mongolian and some Turkish words. There are a number of other ethnic groups.

The Soviet Union no longer exists. As Mahlia points out the various -stans, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, and Tajikistan have assorted interests in Afghanistan. The Soviet Union withdrew completely from Afghanistan leaving the Afghans to Civil War before the Taliban took power.

The Taliban are a group of illiterate religious students largely from Pakistan (although they are Afghans) who are mostly Pashtun in ethnicity, although their tie is not their ethnicity. They were led by illiterate and comically stupid men, who feared the unknown greatly and retaliated against their own ignorance and idiocy by killing and raping. They have nothing to do with Islam, as they could not read the Koran and had no interest in learning to read God's word or of obeying God. I'm not sure if Traude is saying they are Muslims, or that Afghans are Muslims. The Taliban do profess to being Muslims. As Osama bin Laden professes to be a Muslim, as do the Saudi Princes, of all of whom are seeking to control the secular power and riches of that Arab kingdom, not the riches of God's kingdom.

Afghans are Sunni Muslims, with some large numbers of Shiia, of both main factions. Tajiks are Sunni. Hazara are thought of as Shiia, but some of them are Sunni. Hmmm, now that I say this, I wonder. There are very few people of other groups. Jews have always lived in Afghanistan, although I suspect their number was never over 5%. However, older Afghans tend to be respectful of Jews, younger ones are heavily propagandized by Arabs to be anti-Jewish.

Afghanistan is a country that borders dangerous strategic interests of the United States, Pakistan to the East and Iran to the West. Rwanda is a country in the most unknown part of the world. The World Bank already successfully pillages and plunders the riches of that area of the world guaranteeing First World enrichment without the endangerment of First World lives. Pakistan and Iran are using their riches in ways they want.

I think, in general, that you asked the most important questions, Ginny, even if they can't be answered well. I think a brief glossary might be more useful, though.

Kleo

Thank you, Barbara, Mahlia, Traude and Kleo for your input. I will winnow out what seems to address the questions in the heading and put the information there, you can correct at will. I'll do that in the morning, thanks.

Kleo I was not aware the word Afghani occurs in the heading, I changed it when Traude made her objection, and if you can find another instance, I will be glad to change it, also.

I think the heading is clear that this book is about the human condition.

Mahlia, the font question pertained to that particular font color of blue, I will try to increase and bold my green here so that it's more visible, thanks.

You mention the University of Kansas link in the heading. I have counted 89 child pages of that link, is that about what you all have found? I doubt sincerely any of us have time to read 89 pages of packed information, many of which have links themselves to other pages, I think we need to make this realistic for everybody and enjoyable as well.

Kleo, you say I'm thinking I misunderstand you, Ginny. How can you learn about Afghanistan (by reading Kite Runner) if you don't learn about Afghanistan (by reading Kite Runner) because you haven't already learned about Afghanistan (by reading Kite Runner)? Let's do straighten out if this is the case, or rather that a brief introduction to terms, a printable glossary, might be helpful?

Yes you are correct, you have misunderstood me. Nobody has said they don't intend to read The Kite Runner.

And yes, I think you are correct again that those questions seem important, thank you, I believe quite a few of our readers will benefit from having a brief outline presented in the heading and then they may browse at more depth at their leisure the more than 64 links already presented in this discussion before today as well as the additional 89 in the link above. Jane has done a simply beautiful page of URLS submitted by our readers, to go up soon.

No, Ginny, I did not catch the use of 'afghani' in the heading. I was saying it might be nice to clarify, in the heading, that 'Afghan' is the word for the people and 'afghani' for the money. I did post earlier, when the board first opened, a comment that 'Afghans' are the people and 'afghanis' the monetary unit. Thanks for changing the heading, though.

Thanks to Jane for getting all the URLs together.

My comments about the font: I don't have trouble with the blue font, but I find the green font very difficult to read on one of my computers. We discussed this with another SeniorNet host on another board--others have problems with the green font, also. Bolded it is annoying. Unbolded it is unreadable. I copy and paste and change font color in Word to read the green posts, or I just skip them if I'm too busy to do all that. I use 2 computers. On one the green font reads as well as the blue font. On the other the green font is invisible on the screen, plus the screen is a bit hard on the eyes. That is one thing about adding variety to Internet discussions, it is hard to realize, if you have never seen it, just how difficult some things are for viewers on other systems, especially older monitors. .

Kleo

The links that have been contributed by the participants here have been gathered and are in the header.

Kite Runner Links

Thank you Jane, that's a beautiful thing, so thoughtfully presented (she matched the red of an Afghan rug to make the color) and appreciated, thank you.

Jane also has up, in the Read Around the World Parent Discussion , a wonderful Survey in which each person may express his or her thoughts on the structure of the Read Around the World Book Club. Only one vote per customer, please, the issuing software tracks the computers taking it, we'll have to discard any duplicate votes.

Please express your thoughts in our survey and thank you, Jane!

GINNY - May I be respectfully frank? The colored fonts hurt to read. The last one - lighter blue - had me shielding my eyes, while at the same time squinting hard to read the lines. Are the colored fonts in the posts representative of something of which I'm unaware? Like KLEO, I, too, use multiple computers and find myself cutting and pasting. I'd rather be reading. Thanks for your clarification on the purpose of colored fonts in the posts.

Thank you Jane and thank you Ginny for providing these links. I love the history liniks and the language links in particular.

I hope the page of links helps and with it in place we'll know which topics have been well-covered with links and which links have already been listed.

jane

JANE - I just went back and re-read some of the links. It's really great to have them arranged in such an easily accessible manner. Let me join the other posters in offering my thanks for a job well done.

Wow Jane - great that they are organized into catagories - like the size and the colors - just great...!!!

I'm glad the listing is helpful and easy to read.

jane

I do agree Jane has done a super job with that HTML page of URLS, I believe it's the first one I've seen organized by category: I KNOW that took a long time, thank you Jane.

And Pat has put up some very concise answers to the questions in the heading, if I have misunderstood your own thoughts, do post a correction, we need to keep that quite short. Thank you, Pat.

I have not put an answer for the last question, as I am hoping that when we come to the end of the discussion we might have some additional viewpoints on why it's important to us, but all answers submitted were fine, of course, and may be added later. That "human condition" thing again, maybe.

I am very pleased to announce that our first Discussion Leader for our first selection of the Read Around the World Book Club, The Kite Runner, will be Barbara St. Aubrey, and she's quite enthusiastic about taking on this task, thank you, Barbara, that is much appreciated!

Our Ann Alden will conduct, on May 1, the voting for the next selection of our newest initiative here in the Books, our newest book club, Read Around the World, and thanks to all of you it's off to a roaring start! Very exciting! (If you're counting, that's 4 Team Members here in the Books thanked this morning already, and thanks to YOU, our Loyal Readers, for YOUR help, also! Together we rock!

Mahlia, I am so sorry you are experiencing pain with your eyes. I wonder if those of you who find the colors difficult have noticed your own controls on the bottom of the page here? It does not matter if you use 100 computers, you can set your own preferences for fonts right here on SeniorNet only, and every time you log in from any computer, (and you have to login to post), be it at Kinko's or in the Public Library, you will see the same fonts? I have mine set at 18 and comic sans MS, and at that size the green is quite large and visible, we've tried this out on several disinterested bystanders in public facilities.

You can also set your own fonts and colors in your own Windows program, and program IT to override any website you go to. See our Computer Q&A sections for some wonderful help there.

You all may not be aware of this new feature on the bottom of the page, but many report this takes care of any difficulties, and I hope that some of these suggestions help you on SeniorNet where quite a few people use colored fonts. At any rate I can personally use this dark navy which is very close to black, in this discussion only. Hope this helps.

For more detailed information on the Taliban please check

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/taliban.html

Other salient data are in that link as well, answering part of question # 3. But with respect, I am not sure we can summarily conclude that all Taliban are "illiterate".

World Heritage sites in Afghanistan

Great link Traude - that information will be so helpful...

Aha Ann you have posted while this post was in the making - you also found us a wonderful link - thanks...

OK trying to step into Ginny's footsteps I cannot promise a good fit - Both Jane and Pat have been as much a part of this discussion site as Ginny - Kudos and thanks.

Just a couple of changes for the April 1 start

- plans include shortening the heading
- each week there will be a new set of focus questions
- Let's continue as we have using our formula for sharing any useful web page
- If you have a web page and feel nervous about making the link please let us know rather than letting the valuable information go by the wayside
- And for ease of reading, please break up paragraphs in your posts by hitting 'Enter' twice after every 5 or 6 lines.

As Ginny has shared each individual can adjust the size font and the particular font you prefer at the bottom of each page.

Is it still Kite Flying weather where you live? - Here in Austin we are just past our Kite Flying weather after having celebrated the 77th year of the Kite Flying Festival held at Zilker Park, a large park in the center of town on Town Lake which is a dammed up portion of the Lower Colorado River - the Zilker family were the first family of Austin which originally was called Waterloo. Here is the link to the Zilker Kite Festival

How about it - are you having a field day learning the background and history of Afghanistan - earlier I think someone suggested we could easily sit in a cabinet meeting at the White House with all our shared knowledge -

How many have completed reading the book and how many will be reading for the first time the chapters that we assign as a limitation on our discussion?

Let us know please - the most difficult for those who have read the entire book is keeping the discussion to those chapters assigned for the week but we can do it - we've read all our books on SeniorNet using this system and it works amazingly well.

I am excited - we are off to a running start and we have two among us able to share intimate experience with the culture in this part of the world while the rest of us appear to have all the curiosity we need to add to this authors story.

I've finished the book, since my face-to-face book club discussed it last week. (As it happens, I had to miss the meeting, but I didn't know that in advance). I plan to reread each section with the group.

Barbara,

our live book group discussed the book a few months ago. We were deeply moved.

I will re-read along with you, according to the schedule, exactly as JOAN K has indicated.

Barbara,
You are off to a marvelous start.
The background on Afghanistan has been truly enlightening!

I read the book last year, and am going to re-read with the schedule, as planned, on each section.
This is sure to be an outstanding group discussion.

I have not read the book and don't have it yet, but expect my friend (the lender) back in town this week. I will be visiting family the first two weeks in April, and will be posting sporadically, as computer time and family obligations permit.

I have little to add!

The Taliban are quite proud of being uneducated, of having learning from the barely literate. Who am I to take it away from them?

And, they were so scared that a woman with a third grade education might know more than they did (which they would) that they had to make it illegal for women to learn.

Thanks for the link, Traude. I'm glad it mentioned even one more of the absurdities of the Taliban that I had failed to mention: Afghan women were not allowed to go anywhere without a male relative. Afghan women never go anywhere alone, and generally never are alone. So what could the Taliban have been afraid of? What would women have done without the presence of a male relative? Stopped their children from being raped? Like their fathers approved? Ignorant fear can be a very limiting factor to life.

Barbara, I think you'll do quite well, and all the research you are doing will be put to good use. Thanks!

Kleo

Wow another new name - Welcome chsenior2_2 - we are glad you have joined this merry band -

OK Joan, Traude and Mippy have read the book while Pedln and I think Kleo have not - good this will be a nice mix so that the book will feel new to those of us who have read the story through...

Almost feels like the night before a Kite tournament...only we still have more than a week to go.

How about looking at the first weeks chapters and see if there are any references we need to be sure we know about...better to rustle them out now and find the information so that when we discuss the story, the plots, the characters, the place, the themes we have a good background that fills out the empty places in our knowledge.

Oh yes, has anyone ever made a kite - or have you just flown store bought kites...?

We made our own kites as kids, out of newspaper. I thought everyone did?

Kleo

I was wondering why the map in the heading is missing Kabul?

Kleo

Actually, Kleo, we really don't need that map up there. It was originally for the "Read Around the World" discussion, and still is in place there. But Kite Runner, although a RATW title, now stands on its own as an in-place discussion. The maps in the links are much much better. And the heading is plenty big without the map on top.

Yes, Pedln, I agree. I think that Barbara has plans for the heading that will make it more manageable. However, I had not really looked around the heading until Ginny commented that she had corrected the use of 'afghanis' in it. Thanks for clarifying that it was the RATW map.

Kleo

GINNY - many thanks for the darker Navy blue font color (and to other posters who use the regular black color). It makes such a difference in comfort level. No need for dark glasses or uncomfortable squinting today and no headaches. Hooray!

BARBARA - I'm confident you'll make a smashing DL. I like the organized way you are easing us up to April 1 and preparing for any additional information which will be helpful.

KLEO - I, too, made many kites as a kid, but in later years had a wonderfully unique experience with my students in China. The kite festivals there are terrific and the students took the challenge quite seriously. Beautiful, carefully made kites of many colors and strengths. Lots of excitement among the students, faculty and administrators. The university cancelled classes for one day as we all engaged in a much loved (and fun) event.

A recent photo in our local newspaper really warmed my heart: a photo of a small beauty salon in Afghanistan featured a group of women (no burqas in sight, but the women wore soft headscarves with plenty of hair showing) standing around an instructor who was teaching them how to give a permanent. She used a head model, a wig, curlers, pins and several combs. Funny, isn't it, how something so simple can make such a big impression!

In America most Afghan women wear chadaars, the soft scarves Mahlia mentions. They buy them at Macy's. They are just scarves. For prayer the women cover their heads with a large white garment, and at funerals and the mosque the women generally wear more substantial scarves, the white ones worn by married women about the size of a small sheet, and very sheer. In America a lot of married Afghan women now wear black to mosque and to funerals. I keep a black lace Spanish mantilla in my car just in case I need something--I only wear it if I go to the mosque for some reason. A few wear a more covering 2-piece garment, which is a soft tube covering the hair, worn under a head covering that reveals only the face and is just a bit longer than shoulder length.

Kleo

BARBARA,

two dates are give on pg . 36 of our book:

April 1978 the communist coup d'état
December 1979 - Russian tanks rolling into Kabul

regardig question # 7.
I believe that many more people in this country are aware of Afghanistan and the ongoing skirmishes being fought there, with our troops in the line of fire, and have heard the (sparse) news that Taliban are said to be covertly slipping back into the country from Pakistan,
than are aware of Rwanda, in the heart of Africa, where thousands upon thousands of people were killed in seemingly senseless protracted genocidal battles between the majority French-speaking Huttus and the minority English-speaking Tutsis,
battles that were largely ignored by the rest of the world.

Afghanistan is (more?) "important" to us because we invaded the country after 9/11 in pursuit of the terrorists, many of whom were/are from Saudi Arabia, including Osama, e.g. Arabs, as KLEO said, not Afghans. Our soldiers are there and in Iraq, and so are our hearts.

Of course we NEED to know about Afghanistan, and we DO know, but we also need to know about Rwanda, even though we do not have troops there.

(I have trouble with the word "important" and its implications in question # 7. Just MHO.)

Traude wrote:

"I have trouble with the word "important" and its implications in question # 7. Just MHO."

While I hardly think Ginny meant anything by it, the question did irk me for some reason I could not define--and I believe Traude hits the coffin nail on the head. Even though Afghanistan is personally more important to me, as it daily impacts the quality of life for those I know and love, Rwandans are not so much less important than Afghans that we don't need to know about them.

Maybe we need to know about Rwanda and Burundi and whatever Zaire is called today even more than we need to know about Afghanistan because many Westerners do have a personal connection that they know in Afghanistan (troops, Afghans), while few of us know the underlying truth of how Western monetary interests are causing the destruction of central Africa and the murder of Africans in Rwanda and other countries. The destruction of Africa will be something humans cannot escape--it will severely lessen the quality of life for too many. Just as we cannot escape the world we live in today, built in careless part, in Paris in 1919.

Kleo

Good points, TRAUDE and KLEO, about the importance of the African countries, which are occasionally covered in the news, but usually not in the presentation of detailed facts as has been the case in other regions.

A few years ago, I spent some time at USAID's Africa Bureau in Washington DC . One of the ongoing discussions between the African officers and their American colleagues was "why is _______ (name a country) so important to us , but ________ (name a lesser known country) is not." Answers varied and were at times frustrating in their lack of details. I usually talked about the atrocities against women and children (slavery and the trading/selling of slaves among tribes), which upset some of my colleagues. Too bad! The practice continues and I wanted to know WHY more was not done from the Western countries to curtail the practice, since so many millions of our dollars were (and still are) funneled into the hands of the heads of African governments. Needless to say, I was not the most beloved member of the Bureau.

I've read recently about newly formed partnership relations between some of our local organizations and young professionals from Russia and China. Several visiting delegations were featured in our local newspaper. I'm working on a presentation now to see whether some colleagues in Washington will assist in putting together a small project to bring some Afghan women to our area.

Does anyone know whether SENIORNET already has a partnership with Afghans? If not, it would be a wonderful opportunity to incorporate the educational values of SN into an area which desperately needs all the help it can get - especially for women and children - and to take advantage of the numerous funding opportunities for equipment and training from the USA, which simply are unheard of in Afghanistan.

I saw a photo of a group of elderly Persian women at one of the links I was reading. They were sitting comfortably on a bench, leaning over the woman in the middle, who was balancing a laptop on her knees and looking intently at the monitor. Great photo op meshing contemporary high tech with tradition!

Thank you, KLEO and MAHLA.

Can't answer your specific question, MAHLIA, but was thinking about the ritual of genital mutilation of girls in some African countries. A few have escaped to the west.

Here's a NYT article describing how the Taliban can return to Afghanistan. Just like anywhere in the world, "who you know" is an essential component of this venture. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/20/international/asia/20afghan.html

Thanks for your confidence and well wishes that we have a good conversation about this story.

After reading your sincere and heartfelt concern for Rwanda as equal to the concern for Afghanistan I just know we have a good group here -

Looks like our last go around of questions have been addressed and so it is time to come up with a few more questions that will make the reading of this book more delightful as we understand better the people, history and culture of Afghanistan.

With Persephone about to rise from her one-third of the year with Hades, to go forward and spend her one-third of the year serving as a handmaiden to Zeus, and one-third with her mother... an interesting ancient balancing of family, spouse, and career -- Persephone, some sources say, was not happy "married" by Hades. Others say she ate the pomegranate seed deliberately, as a way of breaking free from Mom, and that she was actually content with the final arrangement. Photo of a Pomegranate in bloom

The Pomegranate tree plays its role in the story. I wonder if there is some symbolic meaning to the Pomegranate in Afghan folklore that we are overlooking and makes this bit in the story more poignant than it appears.

What do you know about the importance of the Pomegranate in Afghanistan?

I have read so far, the Pomegranate bark, fruit, and leaves make the brightest natural red dye - I am assuming the Pomegranate leaf is used in the art of Afghan which is the carpets. All parts of the tree have been utilized as sources of tannin for curing leather. ~~ The juice of wild Pomegranates yields citric acid and sodium citrate for pharmaceutical purposes. Pomegranate juice is considered beneficial in leprosy.

aha -- In Persian mythology Isfandiyar [ Son of Gushtasp (the 5th Kayanian King) in the book Shahnama (Book of Kings) that Amir reads to Hassan], eats a pomegranate and becomes invincible. The flowers and fruits of the POMEGRANATE symbolize wealth, plentitude and fertility.

It is said, "Your thirst would be quenched and your stomach would be full by just one pomegranate."

I found this wonderful luscious sounding recipe: Tashkent Daikon and Pomegranate Salad ~~ Prep time: 15 minutes

One daikon (2 pounds, white radish), peeled and grated (use large holes to grate)
One carrot, peeled and julienned
1 cup pomegranate seeds (from 2 pomegranates)
1/2 cup blanched almonds

For the salad dressing:

2 tablespoons rice vinegar
1 tablespoon toasted sesame oil
1 teaspoon salt
1/2 teaspoon fresh ground pepper
1 teaspoon sugar

Allow the grated daikon to soak in ice water for 15 minutes, rinse, drain and pat dry.

Place the daikon, carrots, pomegranate seeds and almonds in a serving bowl.

For the dressing, thoroughly mix all the ingredients and adjust seasoning to taste. Pour over the salad, toss well, cover and chill for 30 minutes. Serves 4.

The question using the word "important" was meant in a gentle way, and Kleo is correct that "nothing" whatsoever was meant by it except to provoke thought, not irritation, and to provoke something to reflect on, which obviously it did.

Thought questions normally accompany book discussions.

An innocent question. I thought and still do think it's a logical question if you're going to consider the human element of what we're reading about. It's interesting that so far most people seem to be talking about American military strategic implications, which are also valid.

For me the question remains unanswered. Every reader discovers and decides what is important for him in what he's reading, no? We may not yet know the answer, but hopefully it's something to THINK about as we read????

It was intended as something that every reader in this discussion could have some input on, that is the reason it was put up. I ask you to respect the effort and intention, thank you.

Barbara, what an interesting recipe, maybe we should all go off and try one daikon or something we have never used in honor of this provocative new book club and discussion and report back!

I am reading "Balkan Ghosts" by Robert Dunlap in which he travels each of the Balkan countries and discusses what brought the them to the place where they are now(that time being before the ongoing war of the 90's). The history of these countries like Croatia and Serbia and Bulgaria etc etc is so similar to the countries of Asia. Tribal ruled with such diversed religious differences causing most of their problems. So, in Asia or the middle east, the different tribes of Pashtun, ??????, plus the different faith beliefs is still causing many problems. The two histories are so similar, its frightening, and we have similar uprisings happening in Africa for the same reasons.

In our family, we know the pomegranate as either rumman (Arabic) or anar (Persian). Here's a link to some interesting historical information about the fruit, which is widely popular throughout Asia, the Middle East and around the Mediterranean.

http://www.innvista.com/health/foods/fruits/pomegra.htm

ANN & GINNY - point of clarification, please. I notice that you both use multiple question marks (??????) in your posts. Is there a specific purpose for these of which I am unaware?

Oh what a great site you found Mahlia on pomegranates - or rumman (Arabic) or anar (Persian).

Ann anything different does seem frightening doesn't it - and when the differences are addressed as a cause for war even more frightening.

I guess to aline yourself with family, clans and religion is the way most of the world is divided. We are so used to thinking melting pot and then of course the many thesis written as to if we really do have a melting pot or a plate separated and co-existing. I think though the more we understand the values that each clan and each ethnic group hold it is easier to see where they can mingle and how they will divide.

I am still trying to wrap my mind over the Code of Revenge that is alive and well in so many of these cultures - which really is the basis for our own concept of the death sentence and for many even giving a prison term comes from revenge.

You are so right Ginny - we are looking at the world today through the eyes of our military interests - and why Afghanistan is important was not as important - but then I remember when the Afghans were fighting the Russians - and it may have only been because Russia was our nemesis - but we thought it cool to purchase one of those rolled wool hats sold in import markets from Afghanistan. It was our way of supporting what we thought was an unjust war.

I think we may have only scratched the surface when it comes to the stratgic location of this country reflected in the many ethnic faces of Afghanistan but its more recent history seems to indicate it is also a buffer nation between India and Russia.

Also there is much in British newspapers about the large number of Pashtuns or Hindustani Pathan, living in Pakistan who support the Talaban for two reasons: the first, most Talaban were Pashtun as is Karzi, the new leader of Afghanistan. The second because of the traditional culture that every guest is protected, which is why Osama has safe haven in these mountains.

Of course I have been reading like crazy and learned the Pashtun straddle the border of both nations -

Several Pashtun clans moved from Afghanistan to Pakistan between the 13th and 16th century. Pashtun or better called Pathan in Pakistan represent 20% of the population in Pakistan. Each clan, traces descent in the male bloodline from a common clan ancestor. Where Pashtun are the predominant ethnic group, the main clans are the Durrani and the Ghilzay.

The Pathan hill tribes have a passion for freedom and independence. They defend their territory and honor against all invaders. They are fearless guerilla fighters who know the hills and valleys, are crack shots and wear clothes that blend with their surroundings. this is fascinating ~ (khaki meaning 'dusty, the color of most army uniforms today, is as a result of the wars in this region involving the British. It was here that they learned to stop wearing their bright red uniform). No one has ever managed to subdue the Pathan: the Mughals, Sikhs, British and Russians have all suffered defeat at their hands.

Not only are Pashtun/Pathan fighters of the Northern Frontier known for their valor but they created a firewall blocking a Soviet advance toward the Persian Gulf and assured a two state separation when India and Pakistan were established free of British rule.

Seems Abdul Ghaffar Khan was as great a pacifist as Gandhi and his red shirts had to swear: "I shall never use violence. I shall not retaliate or take revenge, and shall forgive anyone who indulges in oppression and excesses against me." Without resorting to violence, they endured prison and torture...Ghaffar's pacifism grew out of his concept of jihad, or holy war, because nonviolent resistance "offered the chance of martyrdom in its purest form, since putting one's life conspicuously in one's enemy's hands was itself the key act."

the story of Abdul Ghaffar Khan is all here - The Peacemaker

This is one of the most fascinating read I can remember with SeniorNet...! Not only am I learning tons that the news of the day either assumes or skips but many of my associations were colored by the west, especially leaders of the west and this has been a marvelous opportunity to see the people from this area of the world with new eyes.

I didn't realize that we are talking about the same people who we saw in movies rising from the dusty hills, fighting at the Khyber Pass. The same people that Churchill said about them, "The Pathan tribes are always engaged in private or public war. Every man is a warrior, a politician and a theologian Every large house is a real feudal fortress.... Every family cultivates its vendetta; every clan, its feud.... Nothing is ever forgotten and very few debts are left unpaid."

Last year, or possibly the year before, the NYT Sunday magazine carried a long, very detailed article on religious Islamic schools in Pakistan known under the name of Madrasa(s for plural?). That is one article I should have kept but regretfully did not.

The NYT article described the existence of this type of ultra-conservative Islamic school in Pakistan and carried pictures of male students, young boys and teenagers who looked almost like grown men.

The information on Google is (somewhat uncharacteristically) not exactly "abundant" and the spelling of the word varies - sometimes within the same article (!), (Madrasa, MadrasSa, MadrEsa, MadrasaH) - an inconistency which I find annoying -

but reveals that these schools under that designation existed in Ottoman Istanbul and in Syria, i.e. are a tradition.

I was reminded of that article because of KLEO's use of the word "illiterate".

Of course I have no idea whether any of the students in Pakistan now attending such Madrasas are potential recruits for violent subversive groups like the Taliban, nor can anyone know whether the Taliban who took over in Afghanistan after the Russians left there WERE alums of such schools, or whether such schools might be hotbeds for religious fervor to the point of violence.

But I wanted to mention these facts here because I believe they are in context here and, to an extent, with the political events in our book.

Yes. Traude I only read a great article about the schools as I have been researching about the places and issues in this book - this is when I wish I did bookmark all the sites I read - but alas -

I am seeing that we receive a slanted view of so much of the culture. As you said we have no idea as the real purpose of so much of what we read - regardless if it is about those we are expected to look upon as the enemy or what we are doing. I have read little about the different ethnic groups and how that plays into politics - or maybe it has been printed in the better newspapers but it went over my head because I had not been as thoroughly acquainted with this part of the world.

The web site I read also said these schools were the traditional way boys were taught and not just something that has recently become a tool for teaching hate towards the west. Also, I guess we must define what we agree is a rounded education. Is the only education the boys receive memorizing the Koran or, is this a simplistic explanation similar to the often used, in years past, description of the education a Catholic School kid receives here in the States.

I also think that when a young fighting force is in place there is not much wisdom or maturity just like the "Red Guard" in China. The force is usually described as illiterate.

Why 'Hindustani pathans,' Barbara? Is Pashto a Hindustani language? Do Pashtuns speak other languages elsewhere? I thought Hindustani meant Hindu or Urdu, Indo-Aryan languages, not Iranian (Pashto, Dari, Persian)?

Madrassa is usually transliterated with 'ss.' It means 'school' in Arabic, and in Persian, I guess, and it used in Arabic in the same sense that the word 'school' is used in American English. The news reports about the madrassas in northern Pakistan were about the extremist madrassas for displaced, mostly Pashtun, Afghans. The schools which trained the Taliban had a specific bent towards their extremist cult, in particular. Although some Talibs did arise from the madrassas in northern Pakistan.

By 'illiterate' I meant the standard English-language definition, unable to read or write, and/or unschooled.

I have never heard the parochial school system in the United States referred to as just 'memorizing' the Bible--in fact its reputation is generally of broadly educating children, and turning out better educated students than public schools (whether or not this is true in general or for specific schools or students).

The madrassas that were set up to indoctrinate children into terrorism (not necessarily anti-USA) did not teach reading and writing, but encouraged participation in the madrassas with food. The Taliban make no secrets about where they were educated or not, where they grew up, what type of school they went to, how they think boys should be educated. Their schools, their teachers, the type and manner and limits of their education are not secrets to them or the world--we know because they told us all about it, demonstrated the schools, showed the pupils on the news for years and years. I may be more familiar with this because I get my international news from Pakistan. But there are plenty of other folks who can and do know this. In fact, I watched Taliban sponsored videos of the madrassas on cable news over the years.

The Taliban did not necessarily attend the same madrassas that were in the news, although some did. The Taliban, as I said before, were largely formed from religious schools run by a certain extremist Islamic sect akin to wahabbiism.

The Red Guard of China, now the Lost Generation, are called ' illiterate' because they lost their opportunity for an education by supporting Mao and participating in crimes against other Chinese during the 'Cultural Revolution.'. Essentially they were a mob, initially controlled by Mao, later rampant in China, and disbanded because of this. They were recruited young, not educated while in the Red Guard, then many tried, some executed for crimes, and those who faced neither had entirely missed the chance to become educated contributing members of a society rapidly going high tech. They are the poorest of the elderly in China today because of their illiteracy. They are often called illiterate because they are. But it is the seniors of the Lost Generation, former members of the Red Guard, who are illiterate. The Red Guard themselves probably preferred to recruit the illiterate.

Kleo

The red in Afghan carpets used to be from the madder plant. Pomegranate skins are one of the things used to make black dyes, oak galls also. I believe some other part of the plant or fruit makes a yellow dye. I do know the red dye is from madder. I think the Latin name is something like Rubbia.

Now, of course, synthetic dyes are used. I don't know if the high quality carpets are still made from natural dyes. Some family members have carpets made from natural dyes, they are unevenly dyed and beautifully faded over the years.

Kleo

to consider:

The nature of friendship, beginning in childhood
The nature of the friendship between Amir and Hassan
Can friendship exist between people not "equal"?
Can friendship endure, and doggedly overcome abuse or betrayal?

The relationship between children and their parents
Parents' expectation of what their children should become
Is it realistic or rather monumentally selfish of a parent to want to make his son into an exact replica (indeed a clone) of himself?

As we read, could we reflect on the relationship Amir has with his father compared to Hassan's with his father, Ali?

I do not intend to participate in this interesting discussion, but today I found an article in my files about:

Madrasas in Pakistan

I used to have an elderly female relative who often laughed about the natural dyes in the carpets. She always maintained that she preferred the dyes because as her eyesight worsened and the carpets faded, they still remained beautiful to her.

AS April 1 appraoches, I've been re-reading WOMEN FOR AFGHAN WOMEN, edited by Sunita Mehta (Palgrave/MacMillan, 2002). One of my Washington Afghan friends is a contributor to the publication and I admire the work that has been done by the organization of the same name. I am particularly drawn to a section of the dedication: "in sisterhood, above all, to Afghan women in Afghanistan and throughout the world." For posters who would like to continue to learn more about Afghanistan after we complete the current discussion, this book is a natural choice to follow Khaled Hosseini's work.

I'm glad to see the reference above to one of the greatest Pathans who strove for peace: Ghaffar Khan, whom I've known as Badshah Khan from many discussions with family and friends since I was a teenager. He not only represents the traditional Pathan culture, but also the fact that the Pathans can change from their predominantly aggressive behavior to that of peacemakers when there is a good reason to do so.

The Badshah was truly a remarkable man, not only because he was known as "the Pathan Ghandi," but for his remarkable presence and willingness to "go that extra mile in the cause of peace." This type of commitment is unusual among the Pathans, but the Badshah (and his Red Shirts) were highly respected for their efforts.

Another title which provides unlimited information about the Pathans and their culture is THE FAR PAVILIONS, (St. Martins Press). The author, M.M. Kaye, writes beautifully about the British Corps of Guides and their interaction with the mighty Pathans.

As the wife of a Corps Commandant, Major General Geoff Hamilton, Kaye speaks from first-hand knowledge. This book would also be a fine selection after the current discussion is completed and would definitely enhance the reader's knowledge about the extended border regions of Afghanistan, Pakistan and India, their tribal cultures and how many of their citizens interact.

I'm glad to see the madrassas mentioned, since the education offered in many of the rual ones is pitiful at best. Although there are certainly more substantial ones, as MAL'S link above clearly shows, the general educational requirement is accomplished by the students memorizing segments of the Qur'an and little else.

In some cases, a student memorizes the entire Qur'an and on command can recite large segments of scripture. However, recitation does not mean understanding and that is the pity of this type of indoctrination.

I've met Muslim children who can recite beautifully, but basically have no understanding of what they're repeating. On the positive side, however, I've also had interesting conversations with teenagers who can discuss in depth the meaning from their recitation, as well as from pertinent poetry.

In a real hurry here - cannot respond to all of your posts - great points made for us to add our two cents towards -

Traude Yes, and Yes and Yes - the focus questions include just your thought - never fear the subtleties are never missed nor are the ones that hit you over the head...but please - let's not discuss the book as such till the opening salvo on April 1 -

In the meantime any background material y'all think would be valuable please add - now that you are reading I bet there will be more interesting bits that would prompt any of us towards the internet that has become our substitute for our ever present set of encyclopedias. Still can't read without a dictionary close by how about you...?

Kleo having been one of those Catholic School kids I remember the arguments, especially about state testing. And of course in areas of the south we were witches incarnate...!

But seriously, when my children were attending Catholic School while we lived in Kentucky, we had two visiting guitar playing priests killed on the other side of Hazard for being Catholic Priests - the misinformation about what was taught in Catholic school was rampant.

Oh so much to share as we learn from each other - but I really must run -

MAL, thank you for posting the link about Madrasas, it is most valuable indeed; also for the spelling of the word. Much appreciated.

BARBARA, let me make it very clear that I have no intention to catapult this group into the discussion before the day when you as DL will formally open it.

I only answered the last entry in red in the header which specifically asks "What else? What other questions would you suggest?" And so I did.

I wondered if any of you posters were aware of this Montana man trying to educate the Pakistani girls. Pakistani schools for girls.

And here's another article about him. He Fights Terror With Books

Central Asia Institute

BARBARA - after talking to some friends in Washington this mroning, I'd like to suggst another question for us to consider as we prepare for April 1:

WHY DO WE NOT KNOW MORE ABOUT AFGHANISTAN?

My thinking about this quetion is NOT from the recent political or military standpoint, since the international news presents information in both those contexts, but I'm thinking more from the geographical and historical context.

I remember studying Central and South Asia in the the 7th grade (along with the Middle East and other global regions), again in high school.

When my son was studying for his Master's degree, he cleaned off my bookshelf and did a paper on Islam as a comparative religion topic. I still laugh when I remember the trouble he created with that choice of topics!

Even in this contemporary period, is it possible that we do not know more about Afghanistan (and perhaps its border countries) due to racial or religious prejudice? I can't count the number of conversations I've had with committed Christians, who comment negatively about Jews, but when they are reminded that Jesus was a Jew, they become silent. I've always wondered about that.

Mahlia, I wouldn't think that the reason we don't know more about Afghanistan had anything to DO with religion, or religious prejudice, most of us don't know (and don't care) what the predominant religion of the country is. That's one reason I asked the question in the heading.

This is going to be an interesting discussion, if for no other reason, that we can lay some obvious misconceptions on both sides out on the table, and we'll all learn. . If it were not for hearing it on the news, I would not have known anything about it, and still don't.

I am curious about it.

All I really know is that the former Soviet Union apparently invaded it and there were pockets of freedom fighters who hid out in the mountains, that's about the limit of my admittedly limited understanding (and prior interest), so naturally a book like this intrigues. The reader hopes to learn something new while reading a good book and we will have an extra opportunity here to learn from those with some background IN this culture, so it should be a rare event.

I don't know anything about a lot of countries, and if we were honest here, neither do most of us. Nobody knows everything, right? There is nothing wrong with saying we don't know. We come here to learn, if we were blinded by religious prejudice we certainly wouldn't be here, at all.

So I say commence au festival, or in this case am avidly awaiting April 1, daikon in hand, to experience what Publisher's Weekly called "a complete work of literature." I'm looking forward to it.

Traude--

Good additional questions.

Mahlia, Ginny--

I do have to agree that religious prejudice has something to do with it--our lack of knowledge about Afghanistan. My relatives have been attacked for being Arabs, and for being Muslims. Many Americans think that Afghanistan is an Arab country in the Middle East and dismiss them for this. Most Americans do know that Islam is the dominant religion in the Middle East. It was a big deal in this country, at a time when many of us were alive, to have a Catholic president.

One of my relatives had rocks thrown at their house for being Arabs, after Timothy McVeigh bombed Oklahoma City. Young men in a car screamed, "Go home Muslim terrorists!" The family priest has asked the women, for their own safety, not to wear head scarves in public while the war in Iraq is going on.

I think most Americans do know at least one thing about Afghanistan, that it is predominantly Muslim. Although often based on the erroneous assumption that Afghanistan is an Arab country in the Middle East....

Prejudice isn't necessarily blinding. In fact, prejudice is normal human culture. I feel very comfortable at a Catholic Mass in any language, it is familiar. I would be more comfortable at a Catholic Mass in Japanese than at a Protestant service in English. I know this before I walk in the door. Is this religious prejudice? Yup. Is it blinding me? Nope. I am also very comfortable in a mosque, because I have listened to the voices of Muslims in prayer for most of my adult life. I know how to behave in a mosque, where to sit, where not to sit. I am more comfortable in a mosque than in a synagogue. I know this when I go in the door of a mosque (the woman's door) or a synagogue that I will be more comfortable in the one than the other. Is this religious prejudice? Yup. Is it blinding me? Nope. It's just my culture.

All humans have culture. It is normal to be comfortable with the familiar and uncomfortable with the unfamiliar. Sometimes this discomfort becomes fear. Sometimes this fear is actualized against that which seems to be causing the fear (the unfamiliar). This may be where blinding prejudice comes in.

If we're going to switch to 'Pathan' instead of 'Pashtun' I would like to know more about its use. Please someone explain to me the difference between Pashtun and Pathan. Does the Kite Runner use Pathan? I will finish my reading.

Who was it who said the more we learn the more confused we are?

I did find an interesting on-line dictionary of characters from the Afghan war. The first man listed, Abdul Haq, has family who live in Fremont, California area. His family (I think his wife?) were good friends of some of my relatives.

Afghanistan War Players

Kleo

I found this short and concise description of Afghanistan in your link.

Afghanistan: explanation: Located in central Asia, Afghanistan is surrounded in west by Iran, in east and south by Pakistan and north by newly created republics: Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan. The country is mountainous and some peaks reach 7000m. The total surface is 647,500 sq km. Afghanistan is a multiethnic country composed with Pashtuns (35%), Tadzhik (25%) and other minorities. The total population is about 20 millions and 1 quarter is living outside Afghanistan as refugees. The regime is an Islamic republic.

I wasn't quite sure where to find the War Players until I read the whole list on that page and found them.

Oh my, hate to get on the other side of what seems like firmly held beliefs but...you know that is exactly what I plan to do - ah so... if you look at this nation, every time we have a war we scramble to find a map and figure out, where are they talking about and who are these people and what do the look like and how do the talk -

In fact if you ask most of us who are fairly curious and fairly well educated, about as close a nation as in Central America, we would have to figure out where it is and then we would just assume they speak Spanish, just like most think Spanish is spoken in Brazil. As to the religion of the nation before the Spanish came and how it affects the thinking of the people, there would be no clue - oh ya, we would remember some war down there we saw on TV with guerrilla fighters. And than we would ask, are they the ones that wear those colorful costumes.

The only nations we know about are the ones that were a part of our history. We know about England, Ireland because of the Irish diaspora to America - we know where Portugal and Spain are located from our History of explorers - France who helped us and are in Canada - Italy and Germany, since so many emigrated to the US from there and these were the WWII nations -

We also were trained to look to Europe for excellence in the Arts. We know about Switzerland and maybe Austria, - Poland, again because of the large Polish immigration. We sorta know about Belgium, Holland [not the Netherlands

] Denmark, Sweden and Norway - maybe Finland and than all the rest was Russia - ask about any particular part of Russia that is now a separate nation - it is to the maps and research again.

Korean War - we scrambled - where the Heck is Korea - no one knew, till the movie, that the last Emperor of China lived in Korea - Viet Nam the same thing - where is it - who are the people - how do they live - we asked about their religion as a cause for their different fighting methods.

And so this is not something limited to just places with a different religion or skin color - it is that Geography and the History of other nations is not high on the list of what we learn in school. Even during WWII no one knew anything about Hawaii - it took Arthur Godfrey on Radio after the war to teach us. Every Island that was fought over we scrambled to the map to figure out where it was. The movies taught us about Japan. Europe was easier - our parents, grandparents or great grandparents came from Europe. Y'all know how it has only been in the past 50 years we have become as culturally diverse a nation as we see today.

We still no nothing about China, much less the various ethnic groups within China unless, you happen to be faithful to PBS or subscribe to the Smithsonian Magazine.

There was a day when I thought, how bourgeois of Americans, until you logically figure it out - no enterprise can succeed without resources. The resources available to the school system includes, texts written by US educated authors, and teachers, who are from a pool of US University grads. The taxes are paid by a community and their expectation for what they consider an education is considered. The system is based on, know America first and then those nations that helped America and where we went to war and lastly, all the rest.

The system started when this nation was populated by European immigrants. They taught what they knew about and the other major resource, money, affected their choices.

Example: I attended what today of the 5 learning systems in the US is called the Classic System - most Catholic Schools teach using this system because it is the most affordable - literature is easy to accomidate as is Latin since it used in Church Literature, where as, a childfree environment includes science equipment and gardening equipment etc. I have been educated in both the Northeast and the South. My children were educated in the South. They attended both Catholic and Public schools where I didn't attend a Public institution till College.

What I see is that we were taught based on the resources available and the testing we were going to experience in order to get into College and, in my case, testing in order to get into High School. Now testing is at every grade level.

People hold important and teach what affects them - those funding the education system expect that what affects this nation has a priority. Hopefully, in school we learn how to learn and so when there is a new war or new world issue we have the tools to learn about the area.

In grade school often there is time set aside for some international days which allow us to be acquainted with other parts of the world - and in today's eviornment every school is sure to include enough nations to represent all the basic races. To choose based on various Religions is a problem since in Public school there is that 'no religion' rule.

Teachers and Professor often do not have the time to add new bodies of knowledge with the thoroughness it takes to advise and teach it to someone else - they have their expertise that they expect to share - I suspect that is what happened to your son Mahlia - their growth is not student directed and so in order for them to research any new discipline it needs to fit their own path and their available time.

But I can say, that because of this discussion I now know more about Afghanistan than I do Mexico or even Germany or France, much less places like India or Libya or Peru. And I am one of those naturally curious people with no strong ties to a one and only religion. For the last 20 years I have studies and practiced Daoism more than Christianity.

And so no, I think it is easy to feel the lack of knowing to be tied to a popular view that prejudice sweeps this land - when really, it is the resources available when the system was established.

In order to change we must face - Change takes time - when my mother was young, they were still throwing the Irish out on the street and putting signs in the window 'No Irish Here' - when I was young, it was the Italians, Chinese and Jews - then it was those from Puerto Rico, Mexico and Central America - now, those from the Middle East are having their time - we still have issues with black people and American Indians -

We could turn this around and ask if the Islamic schools teach as much about the US as we are learning about Afghanistan. Yes, our culture is world wide because of retail marketing, movies and TV programs. But, is what happened at Valley Forge or Fort Summter taught along with the Trail of Tears, the Continental Congress, what happened at Montgomary, Dallas or San Antonio - or the difference between a Cajun and a Creole taught in schools in the Middle East...

We all have a lot to learn from each other and if we knew it all, there would not be much to talk about with each other - some folks are open to learning and others have things to do and want to protect themselves from change so they can succeed with what they do know.

In this conversation I expect we are about learning rather than pointing fingers at what we do not know and then trying to lay blame on why we do not know these things. I do not think the reason we do not know is because of religious prejudice attitudes. If you are anxious for change then volunteer to help someone on the School Board and get your ideas into the mix.

That's a smashing post, BARBARA. Bravo! However, as much as you have described very succinctly the general level of knowledge about other countries and cultures, there are those of us who have had quite different educational backgrounds, known and interacted with non-Americans since childhood, rigorously studied the global regions. and held forth on points of interest at the dinner table.

Thus your comment "we still know nothing about China . . ." may apply to some, but not all. I, too, attended Catholic school as a youngster , but my experiences seemingly were quite different. We studied alot about world history, enjoyed guest speakers from other countries, and had the opportunity to host foreign guests in our homes. In our home the study of foreign languages (as well as becoming more fluent in the languages spoken within the family) was encouraged, as was serious discussion between children, youth and adults on various aspects of foreign cultures and those of multicultural families like ours.

Your're absolutely correct about what needs to happen within the context of our educational and political systems in order for Westerners to have opportunities to learn more about others. And with the ever-increasing immigration to North America, that will surely happen. I'm also confident that as people become more familiar with varying non-European immigrants and perhaps take opportunities to get to know individuals and families, the "differences" of which we witness today will decrease.

I'm glad you mentioned volunteering. That has been a BIG part of my life, and continues to this day. One really fine way to learn about people and share one's talents and experiecnes. Especially so during holidays, like now, when we are celebrating Now Ruz (New Year).

KLEO - sounds like you and I have had similar family experiences. I, too, am comforotable at a Catholic mass and services in a mosque and synagogue. To me, each offers a special opportunity for contemplation, prayers, reflection and just the enjoyment of the surroundings.

The following link is in response to the first question above. The information is extensive, providing great detail and a clear explanation of exactly what took place in Afghanistan during the time period in question. There is additional valuble information about customs, cultures and people; why the various monarchs acted as they did and what they hoped to achieve; and information about Afghanistan during the World Wars. Although each reader may not be interested in the pre-Islamic period, it is essential to understand the background of the country and its people if one hopes to more fully understand Afghanistan in more recent years.

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/afghanistan/afghanistan.html

POINT OF CLARIFICATION, PLEASE:

a) Which curriculum is referred to in question #3?

b) What time period is referred to in question #6? Are you referring to the Arab jihadists who trained and fought with the Taliban during the past few years or the early traders who traversed Afghanistan (and other parts of Central and South Asia) enroute to China and the Far East during many centuries?

Oh Mahlia what a wonderful link - and right off the bat this poetic way of describing the nation in relationship to the powerful forces nearby - "like a goat between these lions [Britain and Tsarist Russia] or a grain of wheat between two strong millstones of the grinding mill, [could] stand in the midway of the stones without being ground to dust?"

As to the issue of Arabs - both time frames would be grand although, I was thinking of the first time Arabs came to this land and the impact that had on the culture. But the recent Arab influx would be current to the book wouldn't it - and so if you have that information as well that would be very useful.

Tried to clarify the school curriculum question - I may have made more of a hash of it than it was.

But that link - I will be lost in it for awhile...

Ran into this in NY Review of Books. http://www.

The Real Afghanistan

Jackie

The United States is not a melting pot because we welcomed people from all over the world (we did and we didn't). We're a melting pot because we have STRUGGLED, and FAILED in that struggle, and sometimes succeeded, to live with each other in spite of and in praise of our differences. To toss out these differences, to deny our struggle as a nation to learn to live with those who are different from us, is to deny what will ultimately be our greatest story: success in defining what is human in the human race above what is race about a particular human.

Kleo

California was Spanish before it was American. The old capital in Monterey has a Spanish name because it was a Spanish-speaking trading capital for the Americas.

The West Coast was also settled by Spanish, Americans and Japanese and Chinese (and some Koreans, although generally much later). I learned about Japanese emperors, and Korean art, and had to map Chinese dynasties in elementary school.

When I told one of my Afghan uncles that my husband is from Louisiana he wanted to know if my husband spoke French or Creole (and asked in Dari for the language that was a mix of French and English and other languages). After which a lengthy discussion in Farsi went forth about the settling of various parts of North America by the French, and the later movement to Louisiana of some of the French Canadians. We then moved on to French colonialism in Africa, French WWI generals, and French 19th espionage techniques. Some of these men in the discussion are illiterate (don't read or write any language).

When I discuss politics, American, South Asian, British, South American, Afghan, Pakistani, Middle Eastern, with family members, they know more about geography and history of all of the countries than I do. They know the revolutionary leaders of South American countries when revolutions occur. I am having dinner with family this weekend and will have to brush up thoroughly on the history of Kyrgistan by then because this will be the political topic, and the men are already far more informed on this country than I am. When I watch Afghan, Indian, Pakistani, or Arab news on cable there is always more international news than on American news shows. British news shows, though, cover extensive international news, like South Asian and Middle Eastern news.

However, I would not be able to discuss politics (the favorite topic of Middle Eastern and South Asian men as far as I can tell, followed by History and Religion) at all if I had not got a solid grounding in history in school and at home.

Islamic schools in the Middle East and South Asia are not the equivalent of Parochial Schools in the United States. These areas have private schools that are the equivalent of Parochial Schools, public schools, and religious schools which are more like day long, instead of after school, CCD or cheder, and train students to become religious scholars or priests. The private schools in the Middle East, especially in Iran, and maybe not currently, but before the current turmoil, have traditionally had the best education systems in the world. Arab and Persian children in good private schools, study world poetry, philosophy, geography, history, mathematics, the history of mathematics, astronomy, sciences, everything. They learn to read, write and recite poetry in multiple languages. The Iranian tradition of education is amongst the oldest and best in the world. Afghans who were educated in private schools had British system educations, generally excellent. I think, though, most Afghans are illiterate. I'm pretty sure Afghanistan has always had a low literacy rate. The same in Pakistan and India. Indians, have superb private school educations in geography and world history, in addition to many other areas. My guess is most of them do know the difference between a Creole and a Cajun.

Yes, Mahlia, my upbringing is pretty much like yours. We discussed chess and poetry and Shakespeare and MacArthur's Island Hopping campaigns, and the history of revolutions in the Phillipines at the dinner table and over poker from as young as 6 or 7. I have only been to a synagogue a few times. However, I was babysit in my childhood by an Orthodox Jew from India, so I am quite comfortable in a Jewish home--and love Jewish literature. Iran, of course, has a large Jewish population, and Iranian Persians have traditionally had plenty of social intercourse with Iranian Jews.

What Easterners get in their education system that Americans on the West Coast don't get is familiarity with Jewish Holy Days. We just don't have large Jewish populations on the West Coast, although we now have large Jewish immigrant populations from Iran and Iraq in Orange County and a few other places.

We didn't have guest speakers at my little parochial school. What fun! We did study evolution in fifth grade and rocket science in fourth, though.

Kleo

II Why do some women in Afghanistan cover themselves and other do not?

The Afghan women I know in America all choose to cover themselves or not. It's a personal decision. I have asked about it in relation to Afghanistan and been told it's a personal decision. Oftentimes a girl will wear what her mother wears, if Mom is covered, the daughter is covered. However, there are plenty of Afghan families where Mom wears burqa and daughters do not, or where one daughter in the family wears a burqa, or the grandmothers and the daughters, but not the mother wear a burqa. Women who wear burqas tend to hang out together, but not always of the closest family.

Of the immediate Afghan family that my family married into, of the older ladies, most wear long robes, or America style suits with long skirts, over Afghan pants (white, lightweight cotton, with eyeletted bottoms), and white or black chadaars. The white ones huge, about 5 feet by 8 feet, and sheer. The black, just large black cotton scarves. Some of the older women wear pants suits, though, and regular scarves as chadaars. Of these women all but one wears a scarf on all occasions. The next generation younger, a couple wear full hijab, head covering hoods and underhoods that reveal only the face, plus fleece zip front robes. Some wear scarves, big ones, most wear little ones, quite a few go without. The next generation wears more suits, pantsuits, or long skirted suits for evening events. They generally wear just headscarves, only wearing the bigger ones at family events after marriage.

Under the Taliban this changed, of course.

I will ask more about this and about the pomegranate.

Kleo

Sounds like our families would fit in well together if we had the room for all of them. Talk about large tribal gatherings!

In this week's LIFE Magazine, there is a wonderful photo of a California family (parents are well established real estate brokers in their late 60's and early 70's) who adotped 18 (count 'em eighteen) children from various countries, as well as the USA. The Father's comment was that he and his wife "wanted to make a difference" and wanted to help their children be successful in the world. Fortunately, these folks have the financial resources, as well as the love and interest in multicultural issues to be warm, caring and loving parents to "a whole trible" of children quite different than themselves. BRAVO to them!

I don't think anybody is denying anything, I think that what's being alleged simply does not exist. It certainly doesn't with me, or do I not count as one of the "All Americans?"

On Thursday as is my habit, I did a Mobile Meals Route out in the countryside. In the course of the day I asked more than 30 people, adult Americans, and good people, not in any way related to me, everybody I encountered that morning, if they knew who the ethnic majority of Afghanistan was and if they knew the chief religion.

I hate to tell you that absolutely not one did, and they seemed surprised to be asked, while anxious to comply cordially. Not one.

These were Americans, too. Don't they count?

I think that no matter your personal background, even if you grow up at the table of Kings and Emperors, if what you get from that experience is that Americans, "All Americans" (nobody speaks for all Americans) don't know about Afghanistan because of religious prejudice, or that you make any sweeping negative statement that concerns "all Americans," then I'd say you're sitting at the wrong table.

But HERE in this one discussion HERE people have come FOR the purpose of learning more, regardless of their backgrounds or upbringing, with open minds. This should be the one place on earth that labels and slander are put aside. We must have respect here for all of our posters, and that includes not labelling people as prejudiced or making assumptions on "All Americans," that are unfounded.

Let's not throw the first stone here, most people tend to not want to hear the opinions of those who call them prejudiced.

Yes, bravo to that family, Mahlia, let's try to apply that here, to our online family, also.

Jackie, that is a wonderful moving link, I have printed it out, thank you.

Ginny--

I've gone back to post number 163 and can't find one that used the expression 'all Americans.' Could you please enlighten me as to what post you are responding to, so I could understand what you are talking about? You seem to be the first person to use this expression. Possibly another board?

Kleo

Here's a link (and there are many more provided by Google if you simply type in "What's the difference between Sunni and Shia Islam?") in response to the part of the question posed in V (above). Bear in mind that culture also playa an important role in the way Muslims (Sunni or Shia) conduct themselves (i.e., Asian Muslim customs are quite different than those of Muslims in the Gulf; Egyptian Muslims are considerably different than Persians, especially since the former are Arabs and the latter are not). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni

"The private schools in the Middle East, especially in Iran, and maybe not currently, but before the current turmoil, have traditionally had the best education systems in the world."

I used to share an office with an Iranian colleague. He did not have as much formal education as I do, but I was always amazed at how much he knew, and how relatively little I did. If anything came up in geography, history, philosophy, literature, I would find he knew more than I did, even though I read constantly and have more formal schooling.

In DAUGHTER OF PERSIA: A Woman's Journey From Her Father's Harem Through the Islamic Revolution, Sattareh Farman Farmaian writes passionately about the education she received in Iran and later at USC in the mid-1940's, and how she was able to utilize the latter when she established the Tehran School of Social Work - the first of its kind in Iran (and perhaps throughout the region). The author has been a beacon for many Persian women who wished to increase their world knowledge, while also helping to bring about much needed societal changes in Iran.

Afghan women living and studying abroad have been doing much the same as Sattareh Khanum did in California (and in New York at the UN), before returning to her birth country. Those of us who have not experienced the upheaval of events like the Iranian Revolution or the demise of society in Afghanistan (especially under the Taliban in recent years) can read of these courageous women, applaud them madly, support their efforts with our time and money and professional talents as true members of what has become known as the Sisterhood.

KLEO - I was surprised to read that there are not substantial Jewish communities throughout California. The last Census indicates otherwise. Perhaps you meant of a certain ethnic origin or religious persuasion? As a native Californian who has lived in Los Angeles and San Francisco., I remember a significant Jewish population - admittedly many relocated from New York (especially in the film industry and academe).

The Jewish population of Iran in 2003, it's probably less today.

Iranian Jews

Fifi

Personal recollections of Jews in Afghanistan:

http://www.dangoor.com/74069.html

Although this link features an article in The Charlotte Observer which focuses primarily on the political structure of Saudi Arabia, there is some interesting information about the differences in Islam between the Sunni mainstream (and the Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia) and the Shia. This may be helpful to readers who remain unsure about the two branches of Islam.

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/editorial/11241885.htm

MAHLIA, your links are always appreciated, as are your insights.

KLEO, I am sorry not to have answered a question you had asked earlier. No, I don't speak Polish or Czech, but I studied Russian in Heidelberg with Professor Nicolai v. Bubnoff, who had written the textbooks we used. I found learning the Cyrillic alphabet in script and print the most difficult task in my entire life.

TRAUDE - let me sympathize with you about learning the Cyrilic alphabet. In preparation for a six month posting to China years ago, I thought it would be wise if I could at least write some basic sentences in Chinese. I engaged a tutor and spent many months working diligently. The tutor encouraged me each time we met, commented on my dedication, joked with me about my accent in spoken Chinese and assured me I would learn to write. The tutoring continued while I was in China, but thankfully I was never called upon to produce any of my work in written Chinese.

A few years ago, when I was on a contract at USAID's Africa Bureau in Washington, some of my American colleagues engaged a French tutor. She was marrid to an Iranian, so she and I practiced our Farrsi together in my office at the breaks. I joke with my husband occasionally that Farsi has so many Arabic words, but actually written Arabic reminds me very much of shorthand, which I studied in high school to help me take notes in college classes. He is not amused!

I've been reading about Afghanistan's relations with the border countries and came across this link, which describes the use of Judeo-Persian and includes the Judeo-Tadjik used in the Northern regions. Although the full article details mostly how Jews spoke their regional languaegs and incorporated dialects, I thought this might be interesting as a testament to the diverse linguistic usage in Afghanistan.

http://www.jewish-languages.org/judeo-persian.html

For current news on Afghanistan I read www.aopnews.com and www.afghan-web.com

Holy smoke! It's the 29th and I haven't cracked one page!! I can't believe how time has flown by so quickly! We're getting up some new nominations in the ... not sure what to call it, parent club...er... main book club that cheerfuly elected this discussion, be sure to look in there.

Voting will take place the 2nd week in May from those books nominated and discussed by the end of the first week in May, I can't believe how quickly time has flown here at the beginning, off to read!

Mahlia--

When I was in bootcamp my batallion had women from all over the country. When we got to fall out of a drill if we knew what Jewish Holy Day it was only one person from the Left Coast fell out. Everyone else had been born and raised in lovely NY, Conneticut, NJ, Pennsylvania or Washington DC. This was a pretty large group of women, with hundreds from the West, hundreds from the Deep South, Mid-Continent, East Coast to wind up with a group of some 50 and all from the same area, except for one. Not science, but it certainly made a lasting impression on me. Not the only time I was reminded of the large Jewish presence and position in life in the East, than in the West. Of course there are plenty of Jews in California, Jewish schools, a Jewish film festival, huge Jewish Middle Eastern populations in the greater Los Angeles area. It's just not an large visible presence like on the East Coast, though.

Traude--

I have never learned the Cyrillic alphabet. I can read Cyrillic if I can make out a few words and move on from there, fudging the vowels, because I have been around Russian language most of my life. I even took a Russian conversation course and used the Cyrillic study guides without bothering to learn the alphabet. I can't argue the difficulty of the task for you, having never been willing to take it upon myself.

Kleo

II Men wear various hats and turbans in Afghanistan. What are the various hats named and is there a difference how a turban is wrapped or its color? What are the names for the clothing we see worn by men and women in Afghanistan? Why in Afghanistan do some women cover themselves and others do not?

Well, one of the cousins called while I was on the Internet and I asked her these questions. There was some big ado going on in Farsi and Urdu in the background--lots of screaming, laughing, talking, a child being scolded in Farsi. It was not a fruitful telephone call. I ask if Tajiks wear hats in Afghanistan, she said, "No." I asked what are the traditional clothes called and she challenged me to answer what I call them. Well, we call them "pajamas" in the family, the long blouses and pants that the men wear that look like Pakistani clothes. We call pajamas, as in clothes you wear to bed, "sleeping clothes."

IV Why is the Pomegranate so important in Afghan culture that Karzai risked his life to buy one at the market to give to a visiting war lord?

She has no idea why anyone would risk their life for a pomegranate in Afghanistan since they are native plants and one can buy them and their juice in any store or stand all over Afghanistan. If you can't find one at market, go to your aunties, and they will be sure to have some. She did comment that pomegranates are used in Bedouin wedding ceremonies like when an Afghan couple drink something during the ceremony.

Kleo

Check these links for turbans and other attire:

http://www.afghan-web.com/shop/nproducts

http://www.rawa.org/turban.htm

I am currently going over the text once again, this time with a notebook by my side, to list the Farsi words and their English equivalent. It should keep me busy until Opening Day ...

Thanks, Traude, for reminding me of RAWA, the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan, by posting a link to one of their pages. Others may enjoy looking around the web site to learn more about how Afghan women have suffered in modern times.

Kleo

In anticipation for this discussion, I reserved the book at the library a few days ago. However, there were some 57 people ahead of me on the list! Hence, I do not believe I will be able to read it in time for the discussion,but will follow the posts, anyway.

Hello LEAH, greetings! Please do come and read.

I have read the book and will read the posts in the book discussion. I may not have time to post often, but look forward to the discussion.

Where is Barbara?

Fifi

What were the differences between the Pashtun and Hazara ethnic groups in Kabul in the 1970's? How did they come to be?

Well Spring has sprung and this discussion is about to spring into high gear - I do not know about y'all but I have been googling the heck out of the internet as one question after the other pops into my head.

Fife - so glad you will be joining us - looking forward to your thought...

Traude - yes, this is a heartbreaker isn't it - I know you will share your special insight that always gets us all thinking

Welcome Leah4Swim - what an unusual internet name - am I reading it correctly that you are for swimming? - do you swim regularly? - looking forward to your sharing with us!

Let me break in here and share with y'all how we continue this discussion - I wrote most of this in the discussion where we choose the international author and book but let me repeat here so that we are all filled in on the basis of how the discussion proceeds.

We have some among us who actually read the entire book before we begin the discussion - where as others read the book using the discussion schedule as their reading schedule.: The difficulty for those who read the entire book is to limit themselves to only discuss in a post the part of the book scheduled for that week - so the twists and turns or points made in later chapters that are being set up in earlier chapters are not alluded to or discussed till we get there.; This is the plan that has become the Seniornet plan for reading and discussing a book.
The second important aspect of this discussion is: How we talk to each other - we are not blaming, criticizing, judging, trivializing each other's thoughts, values or beliefs - nor are we grandstanding or trying to convince others our views are the "right" views and therefore, the only view worth considering therefore, everyone in the discussion must agree with that one view.: There are untold books and passages where it is explained that after an author writes and publishes the book it than goes through another creative phase where the reader brings to the book their experiences and values -; Each reader has different life experiences to draw from therefore, the reader makes connections and finds a message that was not consciously outlined by the author but is valid. Reading is a creative process.; That has been the wonder of our discussions since we share our various outlooks and takes on these books, the story then becomes richer for us, especially since we would never have noticed or thought that way reading alone.
Third: we do not copy and paste from another web site - we share how the thought in the other web site relates to our understanding of the story and then we provide a link so that we can each read for ourselves the valuable information.

I think that is about it for the How we do all this - just think of a group of folks who you do not know well coming together at your favorite cafe to discuss this book - bring along your cup of... or glass of... and pull up an easy chair - and for this one you may even need a box of tissues...

Kleo - your enthusiasm is addictive - I just know we are going to have a grand time reading and comparing notes as we all start to learn more and more about this area of the world used to tell this poignant story.

Mahlia - you have already shared some wonderful links that I do not know about others but I have gotten lost in them for hours - this will be a treat for all of us as we embark on our journey into another part of the world. What an adventure we have ahead of us as we rediscover and make connections with history that goes back so many thousands of years and an area of the world that is going through such huge changes within the last 100 years. We can hear in your posts how dear the people of this area of the world are to you.

kidsal - great links that include current news - the one link I have seen suggested on several sites and so it comes with good additional recommendations - looking forward to your sharing with us

Ginny - thanks for continuing to pop in here - your posts always make us feel grounded and ready for a day of reading and posting - with all on your plate I hope you can read this book - you will not be disappointed - it is a doozy

Ann - so glad you are joining us - your insight is always so "right on" - this is an adventure isn't it...

hehehehe Mrs Sherlock your new name had me confused for awhile - I love it - so glad you will be reading and posting - you too always hit a nail on the head with a bit that had gone over our heads.

JoanK - always up on the latest information - the bit about private schools was just what we needed to hear - interesting isn't it how, as we share, one post balances out the next.

Welcome marni0308 - looking forward to your thoughts - great question - we only have a few days before the book discussion begins. During this time we are exploring aspects of Afghan history, culture, etc. that will help us enjoy the book and so if you have any thoughts about your question or any of the other questions please add your two cents.

There has been suggested the idea of starting a fresh new discussion starting with post number one on Friday when we begin discussing the book -

What do you think - what would be the benefit of starting a new discussion and what would be a problem starting a new discussion - Let's have your input please -

I would like to hear the pros and cons but like "The" Donald, ahum this one will be my call - I would prefer making that call though after I hear from y'all about what you see the benefits would be to start off on Friday with a new discussion...

Clearly, IMO, we should stick to the "old" procedure.
As I understand your posts, Barbara, we usually leave the old numbers in place, and just keep going on.
I see no reason to archive the previous, very excellent material. It's much easier to access if it's within
the same board.
Perhaps you might want to put in the header the post number which starts off the "actual" reading, for the convenience of those joining the discussion on April 1st.
As one of the participants who read the book last year, I will, as usual, limit my comments to the
section under consideration. No problemo, as the kids say. And, as you mentioned, Barbara, I really will have at least one box of tissues on my desk.

Yikes! I posted a question a little while ago (my first experience in participating in an online discussion group). I just now discovered that the discussion has been going on all of March! I should have clicked on the "first" button before I submitted anything!! Anyway, what interesting and enlightening information is here.

I guess my question has been answered already. But, we can look at the differences between the Pashtun and Hazara ethnic groups in light of the impact on characters in Kite Runner.

Thanks for your input Mippy and so glad you will be reading along with us...

Welcome again marni0308 - another unusual internet name - does yours have any significance we should know about - do not panic the conversation is what we call PRE- discussion - the difference this time is that there is so much background we were curious about that we started to explore Afghanistan, its history, people, culture, languages, food etc. etc. - you are just fine - in the current heading there is even a link to many of the web sites we have shared in our earlier posts - deep breath you are just fine...

Thanks for the kind words, Barbara. No special significance to my name, which is Marni. It had already been taken for a user name, so I added some numbers. I'm thrilled to be in a Kite Runner discussion. I have retired and am reading voraciously. There are so many things you want to discuss about a book with someone, and my friends have not been interested in a book club. Lucky for me, I finally thought to check book clubs online.

My husband gave me Kite Runner for Christmas and I blubbered all the way through it. It moved me more than anything I've read in a very long time. I am now pursuading all of my relatives and friends to read it. I'm looking forward to the April discussion very much.

BARBARA, to reiterate what I have just posted in "Read Around the World": I believe we should retain the material that is in the folder and start on April 1st with a set of your new questions.

I did like the times in here when a class or discussion used a preview board then switched to a new board on day 1 of the conversation. For me it makes the actual book discussion very tidy and focused on the book. While I have enjoyed discussing Afghan culture, and I have learned a lot in these past few weeks, I would like to have a discussion that I can review that is solely about this book, not about the huge area of Afghan culture.

However, I admit that this is a general decision for me, and because of something I have learned while reading the book, if we don't go to a new board, it won't have the drawbacks for me that I thought it would.

Still, my vote is for a clean fresh conversation solely about the book. There will still be as much access to this board as anyone needs, so concern about this being gone has no foundation. It has been done like this with great success in SeniorNet. It has made me wish other boards worked like this, since the first time I encountered it on SeniorNet.

Kleo

In deference to Barbara's split-personality deficiency, I am pasting this HERE from the 'Round the Horn Book Club thread down THERE:

I agree that the PRE-Discussion should not be deleted. It will prove a valuable resource for participants to access as they read and discuss the book.

I only thought a fresh thread would be preferable because some people may want to search for or refer to background on Afghanistan while others may want to search for or refer to a post about the book. Wouldn't it be a hassle if they had to bump into each other searching in the same thread? It'd be like sticking a fiction book in the Dewey Decimal section and a Dewey Decimal denizen in the Fiction section. A tad confusing (at least for the easily confused, among whom I count myself).

A good compromise as we go forward (that is, if "pre-discussions" are the modus operandi here) would be to place all the non-fiction background stuff (pre-discussion "sister threads") in a non-fiction category, and put the actual book discussion (fiction) in its own thread and area. Or maybe put one atop the other for easy access. As for the argument that cultural stuff might come up in the book discussion itself, sure -- but it would be tied to the plot or characters in that respect.

I just think of someone coming along, say, on April 7, stumbling on and having great interest in a "discussion" of The Kite Runner, and then, after reading the first 50 posts, giving up entirely because there's no Kite and no Runner -- just what looks to be a discussion about a country and a culture.

But I agree with Traude. SAVE THE PRE-DISCUSSION THREAD!

hahahahaa yes - thanks hehehehe and now another discussion is being suggested - hmmmm how many splits are we in for hehehehhhhheeeeeeeee

Pass the bananas.

</bad split joke>

Well, I'm going to sit on the fence. I like the ideas, insights and links listed here. They'll always be here, but I might forget where I read something I want to go back to. Also, I like the focused study of the book itself. Asking myself why did the author create this situation? What does that person's physiognomy add to the development of his persona (I'll always "see" the details the author points out instead of my own visualization)? As with life, I'll take whatever comes my way.

I just read through all 256 discussions messages to catch up (whew). I noticed some discussion of Hazara and Mongol features and it reminded me of something - thought I'd pass it along. To see a lovely lovely look at a contemporary nomadic Mongolian family, raising camels and sheep in the Gobi Desert, check out the movie "Story of the Weeping Camel." It's a semi-documentary with sub-titles, nominated for an Academy Award for best foreign film, I believe - is in On Demand on cable TV. I thought of the Hazara facial descriptions in Kite Runner when I viewed it. The Mongol features seem very distinctive. And the beautiful high-cheekboned round faces look so similar to some native american faces. It's interesting how their Mongolian music has strains of middle eastern, asian, and native american music. Speaking of melting pots.

Thanks for suggesting "The Story of The Weeping Camel". Thanks to you I was able to sign up for the reserve and am 27th on the list. They own 14 copies so it won't be too long before I have it.

I will be the one looking for the flying kites and the runner. I was notified today that my book has been lost in transit and to top that off I'm the world's slowest reader. I saw that it's on tape at the library so I may be in luck. In any case, I'm adoring the comments of others.

Thanks for reminding me of the "Weeping Camel". I meant to see it when it came out, but missed it. I'll see if Netflicks has it.

After reading the excerpts on Amazon and finding it only comes in a DVD I may want to break down and buy a DVD player just to see this movie - it sounds enchanting doesn't it...

Annie3 I will see if I can find the links again but I saw where three chapters are on the web which would get you started - then if your book isn't here you could take a page from my usual Friday night activities -

I take myself usually to Borders since I prefer it over our local B&N although the B&N in Round Rock is superb - at any rate I get my cup of coffee and treat myself often to a sandwich as my supper, find a cozy chair and sit and read for a couple of hours -

A book of about 200 pages or less I can usually read in one night but this would take two nights of using the book store as a library - folks do it all the time and it is lovely to get out of the house -

What I find amazing is I get more read during my visit than I do at home in the same amount of time - I think because I am not popping up every two minutes to answer the phone or put dishes in the dishwasher or make myself fresh coffee. Also I usually have the TV on in the background and I bet I look up more often than I realize - of course there is NOTHING on Friday night after the Newshour with Jim Lehrer.

Our local Borders is a gathering place for Seniors who like to read. Many an hour I've spent there, reading, or chatting with fellow readers. I actually feel indignant if I come back to finish a book, and they've sold it!!

Found this much ~ Chapter 1 and 2 Kite Runner

Thank you so much Barbara. I don't think we have a Borders but we do have a Barnes and Noble and what a good idea.

I'm waiting for my book which is on its way from Amazon. But I did see part of a PBS piece on Afghanistan about the film archives that were hidden behind false walls and also gold artifacts that were dug up and kept hidden in safes during the wars for about 25 years. Unfortunately I missed the beginning.Hopefully it will be aired again. It was National Geographic Special shown here in Chicago 10 pm CST Wednesday March 30th It should tie into the material in this book. Colkot

Welcome colkot - while you are waiting for your book to arrive here is a link for two of the chapters that are online - Chapter 1 & 2 - that could be a start for you...So glad you are joining us...

Hello, everyone. I tried to join this list, earlier in March. I just went through all of the messages, and do not see the earlier email. Don't know what happened to it.

I have no idea how these book discussions work. Could one of you please enlighten me? I do have the book, and will begin reading it, tomorrow. I have no knowledge about Afghanistan, but am interested in learning about it.

Sheila

Welcome - Welcome Shiela - glad you found us...!

OK the way it works - in the morning there will be a new heading that will include some questions to consider while reading - we also do things a bit different in Seniornet - we discuss the book in four parts - one part each of four weeks - if anyone has read the entire book they know not to share and discuss what comes next - or what we are being set up to read about later that will be significant. We only discuss those chapters that will be assigned to that week's discussion schedule.

There are a couple of no no's - we do not copy and past pages from other websites - if we have done some research and learn something that will add to our understanding of the story we explain with a few sentences from the site how it relates to the story and then we provide the link to the page so we can all read the web site for ourselves.

We do not simply copy and past the URL either but use the formula that is above - this formula will not be shown tomorrow and so if you need help please ask.

We do not try to get others to agree to one version of the book - we are very attuned to the concept that "Reading is a Creative Act" - in other words we all bring to our reading an understanding of the story based on our own life experiences. The beauty of reading as a group is that we have so many different life experiences to draw from than if we were reading the book alone.

And so we are not blaming, criticizing, judging, trivializing each other's thoughts, values or beliefs - nor are we grandstanding or trying to convince others our views are the "right" views and therefore, the only view worth considering therefore, everyone in the discussion must agree with that one view.

Yes, we consider the usual aspects of reading any novel; the characters, the setting, the plot, the themes, symbolism, style, structure, things the author hasn't said – all those white spaces on the printed page which together get to what the author is really saying beneath the story.

Reading for a book discussion differs somewhat from reading purely for pleasure. Suggestion, as you read ask questions of yourself and mark down pages you might want to refer back to. Ask yourself, "Is this significant?" or "Why does the author include this?" Thinking a bit deeper does slow down your reading.

We are all interested in learning the author’s message: this is especially where we may receive individualized messages resulting from what we read as we match parts of the story to our own experiences - but for clues, look at what the author is revealing about himself and what he shares that allows you a peek into life from his perspective.

Identifying themes is easier if you imagine the author mulling over the beginning of the story, asking himself, “what if … ” questions. Most authors get their main theme set in the first chapter and a good author in the first paragraph. It is that first chapter where every word counts.

Little by little we will share our thoughts and have a good time along the way - so pull up your chair and join us...

Now that I have absorbed the "way it works," I feel ready to begin another enjoyable book discussion. My last, Alice Munro's "Runaway" opened up a newer approach for me as a lover and instructor of literature.My latest endeavor is designing online courses to tempt and instruct students to read and appreciate a variety of literary genres. Of course, we engage in online discussion which allows adults and younger students easily to share their insights as well as their own experiences. And so this is one of the reasons I enjoy participating in Senior Net forums. I find that discussion about literature like no other is an opportunity to expand a work beyond what even the author intends. Hope I can contribute to this.

Bern

Welcome Bern, I am happy to see you once again posting and enjoying a book discussion.

4. An area of Kabul is known as Wazir Akbar Khan. Who was he and what building of note is located today in that area of Kabul?

Wazir Akbar Khan was the son of Dost Mohammad, the first Afghan Amir to unite Afghanistan, in about somewhere about today's international boundaries, as an independent nation in the late 19th century. The son led a famous battle and defeat of the British.

Kabul's trauma center, the Wazir Akbar Khan hospital, is located in the neighborhood. I will have to ask to find out what else is there.

3. In a tribal confederation an Amir is picked as Military commander for the confederation and he is the leader in times of war. This authority is only in times of war but carries a connotation of Trust, Power and Authority. How does Amir jan show his trust, power and authority during the battle for the Kites in the Tournament?

Barbara, on this question do you mean to emphasize that his father calls him "Amir jan" in the asking of this question. Doesn't he become dear Amir, only after winning? I'd have to answer the question differently, depending upon the emphasis you mean in Amir's relationship to his father. I will think about it both ways, as I like this question--and go back and review this section.

"Amir" is a very popular Afghan boy's name.

This, of course, is why I do book clubs. I had not thought of Amir, the son of a great man, that great man a leader of his community, living in a district named for the son of a great man, the son being honored for his ferocity and win in battle. Would Amir be dear to his father only if he could win in battle like Wazir Akbar Khan?

Kleo

Welcome Bern - sounds like you have had a good experience discussing a book on SeniorNet - that does bring a smile to all our faces - looking forward to your posts.

Such a short first Chapter isn't it -

What do we learn in that first chapter - the date when he was 12 years old when something happened that he would as soon forget.

He is now 26 years old and during the summer his friend called from Pakistan. What age is the friend I wonder - I assumed Rahim Khan was similar in age.

He lives in San Francisco, takes walks, and the first mention of kites with blue tails which seems like a way to justify the book title. They are described as dancing - now the whole Kite issue has me curious what this is all about.

Then we have another named Hassan - nothing designates if he is a friend or what only that he had a hairlip and said something to him that was significant.

Twin Kites are mentioned right after in italics There is a way to be good again. hmmm was he bad at one time?

Than other characters are mentioned who must be important to the story - Baba, Ali and a place - Kabul.

In the first chapter we learn about the protagonist but he does not offer his name - interesting - I wonder what the significance of that is...

Looks like when we read we must look for the relationships between the protagonist and Rahim Khan, Hassan, Baba, Ali and places like Kabul and San Francisco or else the author would not have included these places by name in the first chapter.

It appears we are looking for a change - a dramatic change - something that happened to change his life when he was 12. And then the kites which are referred to in two places within this very short chapter.

Intrigued - well I am...

Kleo - almost feel like saying good morning but here it is noon time - ah so - how are you today?

To your question - he does win but we know that much went into the winning and so by using his father's loving expression with his name along with the definition of what an Amir is, which is actually his given name, we can see at what price glory for Amir when he won...we may each have a different opinion at the price or way he won...just share what that means to you - others will have other ideas and opinions.

Kleo remember the questions are not a test - they are only points where by we can discuss our individual thoughts on what the author is telling us. There is irony built into that question and irony is part of this story.

The connections are quite wonderful aren't they once we look up the names that are included in the story - great leaders, great battles as you say are important to the father aren't they.

Kleo so far of these first chapters - what description impressed you the most? Is there anything that made you reach for a box of tissues, or that made you laugh out loud, or allowed you to remember something from your childhood?

Something that I found intriguing in chapter 1, was in the introductory paragraph--what better place to capture the reader?

"I became what I am today at the age of twelve, ... I remember the precise moment, crouching behind a crumbling mud wall, peeking into the alley near the frozen creek."

I remember watching a home video from Afghanistan on Christmas day a couple of years ago, after the US first went into Afghanistan. My Uncle had gone home and to the village of his birth for the first time since fleeing Afghanistan under the Soviets. The road to his village is miles and miles of crumbling mud walls. Is our protagonist now an outsider to the country of his birth, to the crumbled ruins of Afghanistan? Is this what he wanted to bury, his culture, I thought while reading this.

Kleo

The book has almost too many memories for me, but later ones are of my childhood, young adulthood. Early in the book makes me think of everyday life with the Afghans I know today.

My favorite memory sparked by the book was the beginning of chapter 2, the two boys sitting in the tree eating mulberries. One of my favorite Afghan families has a mulberry tree in their back yard. On shishkabob night we would all sit in their back yard, rugs all over the huge patio, no cushions because it was just family, the men grilling, children running under foot. If the mulberries were ripe the children would stand under the tree eating them, or the women would gather under the tree and stand around picking mulberries, drinking tea, and chatting. Essa, one of the sons, makes the best shishkabob. One of the other boys usually caught some fish, or my Mom some salmon. We sat for hours, outside, listening to Afghan music sometimes, eating grilled lamb and chicken and Afghan hamburger kabob and fish on the rugs in the beautiful formal garden planted with roses.

Afghans, by the way, eat the white mulberries, not the blackish red ones.

Kleo

PS I didn't think the questions were a test. Lol. I'm not trying to get the 'right' answer by questioning you, Barbara. I was interested in what your thinking was for your wording because I found that question intriguing in various ways, not just one.

I'm struck with the notion that this is another coming-of-age story, but in a time and place not easily imaginable. However, I am puzzled by the absence of living women; what plot element requires the mothers to be absent, one dead the other worse than dead, having abandoned her son? What a strange household, all men, superiors and subordinates. I imagine that the lives of the adults we have met are also lacking females. Hassam does the ironing, packs the books, serves the food, cleans as his father does for the head of the household. I will wait impatiently to see what the absence of women does to the development of the story.

Mulberries are the trees that silk worms are grown on (the white ones are the major Chinese one for the major species of silkworm moth). I think that Afghans eat mulberries is cultural, but the author may intend more significance with this, the silk culture, and its relation to the Mongols, and the Hazara ancestory. Does anyone know if the Mongols brought the mulberries to Afghanistan from China?

I am curious, too, Mrs. Sherlock, about the device of no women. Not even Rahim Khan is married. Polygamy is still practiced in Afghanistan. Remarriage upon the death of a wife, especially for a young man, is very usual.

Kleo

I found one of the most intriguing things in the book in that first sentence: "I became what I am today at the age of twelve". It made me really think. Is it true that a few minutes in a life can determine that life? Amir THINKS it does. It certainly determined who he thought he was, but is that who he was?

And then another sentence: saying it's possible to be good again". A moment can determine a life, but it's possible to change that determination.

We need to follow this idea through the book, but what about in our lives? I can't think of a moment that was that important to me (although if the Freudians are right I might not remember it). What do you all think of that concept?

I was interested in the lack of women too. In the interview with the author we read, he said his next book would be from the point of view of a woman. I'll bet it won't be as good. I surmise the author grew up with men, and doesn't really feel comfortable portraying women. I wonder if this is due to cultural separation, or something in his past.

BARBARA,

Chapter One is the introduction, and the narrative begins in December of 2001 (after 9/11, nota bene!). Chapter Two tells the story of Amir's childhood and describes the monumental events in thewinter of 1975.

Amir, named after the famous historical personage, is the narrator; "Baba" is what he calls his father; Rahim Khan is Baba's business partner and friend, who is presumably Baba's age.

Kite running, as we will discover, remains a cherished Afghan tradition, of which we'll learn crucial details as we read along.

Motherless Amir worships his father, but from all appearances Baba is disappointed in his more introspective son and confides this to Rahim Khan, which the boy overhears. He longs for a sign of his father's affection and spends countless hours sitting outside Baba's closed door.

The differences between the Pashtun and the Hazara are described by the boy Amir, but clearly enough for the reader to visualize the Hazara physiognomy (flat noses, Mongolian influences) and comprehend their marginal, subordinate role in Afghan society.

Early on we learn that Ali and his son Hassan are servants in Baba's grand house and live by themselves in a shack on the property. Hassan is Amir's only playmate. Amir is conscious of his elevated social status vis-a-vis Hassan, who worships him (and prepares his breakfast).

Amir attends school- not always willingly or gladly - where he excels. Hassan, a Hazara, does not, for taking care of a master's every-day needs and wishes reqires no formal schooling. In some strata of Kabul society of the day, the narrator tells us, the Hazara are despised.

Amir tells Hassan stories and later reads to him, but the thought of teaching Hassan to read would never occur to him. This does not diminish Hassan's absolute devotion and loyalty to Amir.

So then, first we are made aware of the social distictions. We also canot help noting that Baba seems to be more "taken" with Hassan than with his own son, and Amir is intensely jealous. I believe we need to fully understand the parameters of the relationships, in human terms, father and son, master and servant, before we can hope to grasp the decisive importance of the kite running festival (= the tradition and the actual event in the book) for this small family.

We see human behavior and raw emotions. The world has always known bullies; there have always been heroes and cowards, and traitors (not only in the political arena). How do we look upon filial or paternal love, on lies and secrets, why they may be told, and what scars they inflict? Is there a moral dimension to cowardice?

JOAN K, saw your post while checking mine. There will be women in this story, take heart. But their role is commensurate with their importance or lack of same) in Afghan society.

I don't find it disturbing that no woman have significant roles in the early chapters. We have to remember this
is fiction -- not "real" life in Afghanistan, where prompt remarriage might have been the custom.
The author might be using this "sterile" home life to highlight how Amir continually thinks his father is disappointed in him. Having no mother in the house makes this friction more emotional for the boy.
Isn't this a common devise used by authors of coming-of-age novels? Either the mother or father wants the child to mirror his/her achievements? In some cases, the child becomes depressed because the success of the father's life, perceived or actual, is too great to be duplicated.

Those who have posted about the life-changing year, before reading the chapter where the "event" occurs, will indeed see why Amir is so emotional about this year. It's not winning or losing at kite-flying.
Many of us, having childhoods which were (fortunately) protected from violence, cannot or would not want to mirror the experience of these boys.

I think one of the great strengths of this novel is that events such as these are location-neutral. But
I know some readers are still on the first 2 chapters, so I'll stop for now.

Whhheeeee we are off to a great start...!

Yep seems like several of us were aware of the lack of women - after reading your post I decided to look up in my trusty "Encyclopaedia of Traditional Symbols" by J.C. Cooper and see what women in literature is all about - I knew that when a marriage is featured the underlying message is joining the two aspects of the soul almost like a Janus figure - so what does it mean one one side is missing I thought...then before I opened the book my thoughts wandered.

Have you ever noticed how many thoughts zoom through your head in just a few seconds - then I wonder why when I go to another room for something I forgot what it was that I needed...

Ok my thoughts went to how is it that a group of viral men live without any mention of women in their lives - are they all celibate ...then that made me think of war and an army at war...hmmm I thought is this whole childhood section about war...certainly the Kite tournaments are described as war...is this highlighting an interior war I wondered...

Well my trusty Encyclopeadia [yes that is how they spell it on the cover of the book] says Women represent the great Mother, the great Goddess and are symbolized by the moon, the earth and the waters. Women in a story represents the instinctive versus the masculine rational order.

hmmmm so this part of the book is laying out the rational order of things.

It is a highly complex symbolism as the Great Mother can be either beneficent and protective or malefic and destructive, she can be both the pure spiritual guide and the siren and seducer, the virgin Queen of Heaven and the harpy and harlot, supreme wisdom and abysmal folly.

Aha we have the mother of Hassan described as the wayward harlot and the mother of Amir described as the pure unfortunate victim to Amir's birth.

The description goes on to particulars within various cultures and religions - of not it says the crescent moon and the stars are her pre-eminent attributes and in Hinduism and Buddhism as well as in Sanskrit writings she is the Prakriti. [I know, I did not know what prakriti is either - here is a definition] sounds to me like primeval energy - one site I read defines Prakritie as, "A set of some physical mental sensory, motor and spiritual character of an individual. These are decided at the time of conception of that individual. Therefore, constitution or prakriti is a highly individual thing, since it is decided at the time of conception as the individual develops in the womb."

And so what I get out of all of this in relation to the story is -- this boy is being brought up as a warrior much like the Spartans who left their mothers side at a very early age. I guess I am saying this because I am combining this information with the post from Kleo where the name of the district they live in is named for a Wazir Akbar Khan, the revered warrior in Afghan history.

Mippy: I've finished the book, so I know what Amir is referring to. My question remains. Amir is not referring to the horror of what happened on that day, but to his horror at himself for how he reacted to it, what he did and didn't do. And yet, how he would react is foreshadowed by everything he tells us about who he was before that day. So, is it true that that moment made him who he was, merely revealed to him who he was, or only who he was at that particular moment, with choices to be someone else at other moments?

I have more to say about this: it really made me think about who I am. I don't know at what point we can assume that everyone has read the first week's selection.

Kleo I do not think I have ever tasted a mulberry much less white mulberries - must find some and try them.

Mrs. Sherlock and you see the coming-of-age aspect of this story - it will be interesting to see how his childhood with the absence of women plays into this story...

JoanK...you had me thinking...and yes I can see great swaths of attitudes and beliefs that I developed because of a particular event seared in my mind and goodness knows how much of my personality was developed because of childhood events. I think the event must be very traumatic or memorable - like how we can all remember where we were when Roosevelt came on the Radio and told us the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor or where we were when we heard Kennedy was shot or even how we knew to tune in and watch 9/11 unfold before our eyes.

Oh my I did not see your wonderful Post Traude till I was just reviewing - your post is packed full of so much in just a few paragraphs - lots to discuss that I hope we get into -- I need to put my thoughts together and will respond with my ideas later - thank you, thank you - you have brought up so much for us to consider.

Mippy I like that concept that this was an author;s devise for highlighting what was important... "The author might be using this "sterile" home life to highlight how Amir continually thinks his father is disappointed in him. Having no mother in the house makes this friction more emotional for the boy."

hmmm Joan "to his horror at himself for how he reacted to it, what he did and didn't do." That does say a lot doesn't it about the moral fibre of this young man if his actions or lack of them caused this much emotion in his life and is still affecting him at age 26.

Who I am - hmmm Joan now you have me thinking...

JoanK,
Yes, we are both being careful here, we agree as usual, not to reveal too much, too soon. I read the book last year, and I saw that you've finished another book group doing it, so we ought to let Barbara say when to comment on the upcoming story.

I previously read the book with much less understanding of the culture; after a month of pre-discussion on this board, I see how the class structure is critical to the guilt of Amir. And we might ask if a master and a servant can be brothers, under any circumstances, when danger lurks. Or does Amir, as an adult, see himself as unworthy to be a brother to Hassan.

If you have not perched in a tree and eaten mulberries, you have missed an essential part of growing up. It was a great hiding place for me and my brother. The trees grow wild around here, and the birds drop seeds every where.

Maybe the reason that Amir thinks his father is disappointed in him (or doesn't love him) is because he thinks that his father blames him for the death of his wife, Amir's mother. If marrying again is very common then what would a child think when his father does not remarry. Perhaps that Amir's mother was so special and that he loved her so much that he would not marry again. Amir might feel terribly guilty about that and be desperate enough to see nothing else but the opportunity to gain his father's love and approval come what may.

We have to remember this is fiction -- not "real" life in Afghanistan, where prompt remarriage might have been the custom. Mippy

Mippy. I think everyone who mentioned the lack of women questioned how it is being used a plot device, not its reality. However, if an author chooses such a device in a society where it is unusual this is a part of the device, that it stands so apart from the cultural norm. We can ask, "Does it work?" We can question, early on, "Is it believable?"

I wasn't thinking of Afghan society where prompt remarriage isn't necessarily a custom, but would be approved of if a woman died in childbirth. Afghans mourn the loss of a loved one for a year, making prompt remarriage impossible. I don't know if this is Tajik, but Pashtun mournings appear to be just like Tajik ones, although I have only been around one of the latter.

There will be women in this story, take heart. But their role is commensurate with their importance or lack of same) in Afghan society. Traude

I haven't finished, so I do take heart that women will appear, Traude. Women are extraordinarily important in Afghan society. This is why the Taliban had to quash them so directly and harshly. If they played no role or were not important they could have been ignored. All Afghans grow up surrounded by the women in their life. Every Afghan male I know has a dear female relative who is their confidant in life, their closest friend, besides their wife. I suspect it is difficult to get this aspect of Afghan life from the news, or while reading this particular book, but Afghan home life revolves around the women, and Afghan life revolves around the home.

Kleo

We need to follow this idea through the book, but what about in our lives? I can't think of a moment that was that important to me (although if the Freudians are right I might not remember it). What do you all think of that concept? Joan K

I had a moment like this in my life, where I had to make a critical decision of such magnitude, even greater. I don't know that it happens to everyone, though. I agree with Joan as to the importance of following this idea through the book.

I wonder if this is something the author encountered, that he can write of it in such a naked manner? Not the particular decision, but having to pick a road in life, which leads inexorably in only one direction? I admire the author's honesty in this character, Amir. It is a brave bearing of a human soul, this book. Too easy, when fiction is done well, to confuse the author and the character, also.

Kleo

KLEO, yes, it is fiction. But there is no doubt in my mind at all that the author's experiences may have been similar, that he has intimate knowledge of the locale and that the conditions described are authentic.

It is known from the available data that the author and his family were spirited out of Afghanistan with American help and found asylum in this country.

At that time the author was about the same age as Amir in the book. UNlike Amir, a writer since boyhood, the author became a practicing physician, but he is a wonderful writer as well, as we have discovered in this book, initially a "sleeper".

According to the schedule, we may mention anything that is disclosed in chapters One to Nine, but nothing more for now.

Re the social inequality of the boys, check the short paragraph on pg. 25:

...... "Never mind any of those things. Because history isn't easy to overcome. Neither is religion. In the end, I was a Pashtun and he was a Hazara. I was Sunni and he was Shi'a, and nothing was ever going to change that. Nothing."

Here are some of the children from Hazara with their moon round faces that describes the face of Hassan.

Big Brother

Young Hazara girl

Although there seems to be considerable concern from the posts about the lack of women in the household, I wonder if anyone else has considered the possibility of a deeper relationship between the father and his friend, Rahim? This would not be uncommon in Pastun culture, especially between men who are very good friends, respect each other, and care deeply for one another.

Another thought that came to me as I read the book - I, too, read it straight through sometime ago - is that the author's description of the roles between the Hasara servants and Pashtun father and son, remind me very much of the historial relations in the American South between white landowners and their Black servants.

The Hazara people are descended from the camp women of Cingis Qan's great camp the "yeke a'uruy"...the Hazara have a particularly clouded history. they fell under the control of their Pashtun neighbors in the 1880s.

Ones who would convert to Sunni Islam from Shia were given land in the Qal-i-Nau area. Many who were not converted were enslaved. In Islam it was permissible to enslave unbelievers and some interpreted this to mean that other Moslems who were not of your sect were fair game.

...long after slavery was declared illegal, slaves were still held in economic and cultural bondage. The way he explained it was that all the better families had Hazara families who served them. The wife cooked and cleaned and the husband attended to the house and yard.

This is a nice site about the Hazara with the most darling child pictured in native clothing Hazara

"It is known from the available data that the author and his family were spirited out of Afghanistan with American help and found asylum in this country." Traude

How so, Traude? Is this in the book, or elsewhere--I didn't check for an author bio? If elsewhere, pray tell the story.

The American help spiriting most Afghans out of Afghanistan is American relatives, who've done well enough to pay the passage.

In earlier years the men came first, got settled, then sent for the women. In later years, until just recently, the women came first, because it has been easy for an Afghan woman to get political asylum in the US and other countries.

The writing had already been on the wall for quite some time, when the old monarchy was overthrown in the late 60s, early 70s, so my closest Uncle left Afghanistan in the late 60s. He used to be one of the only Afghans around--our social life with this Uncle involved Iranians, not other Afghans.

Kleo

Lol, Mahlia, I had forgotten the obvious:

"I wonder if anyone else has considered the possibility of a deeper relationship between the father and his friend, Rahim?" Mahlia

Of course, this would be one way a homosexual attraction could be handled in Afghanistan--the men would be known as good friends, and possibly one would not be married. After all, Western culture does not corner the market in homosexuality. It's part of life all over the world, accepted, and known, although not discussed openly in Afghan culture.

Thanks for the reminder, Mahlia.

Kleo

"The Hazara people are descended from the camp women of Cingis Qan's great camp the "yeke a'uruy"...the Hazara have a particularly clouded history. they fell under the control of their Pashtun neighbors in the 1880s." Barbara

I don't know that this is really known, unless some DNA studies have recently confirmed this. Scholars see some difficulties with this theory, that the Hazara are descended from the Mongols. There is some evidence that the Hazara have lived in Afghanistan for much longer than the Mongol invasion. One of my cousins had told me that the story that the Hazaras are descended from camp women from Genghis Kahn's son was racist propaganda designed to justify the position of Hazara in Afghan society, like 19th century religions in the USA attempted to use the Bible to justify slavery. I don't have any better feel for whether this is true, than for the Hazara heritage, though.

Thanks for the link to the in-depth site on the Hazara, Barbara. An Afghan scholar would be handy. But I greatly appreciate the time you are putting into research on Afghanistan and its peoples.

Kleo

Interesting how we all look at the relationships between these men who were role models for Amir - the story isn't clear is it about how these men lived their intimate life so all we can do is imagine...

One thing we do know from the story though is there appears to be no women in the households when Amir and Hassan were children.

This is a very nice interview with the Author and where I also read he was spirited away it appears his account is a bit different. Interview with Hosseine and Barbara Lane

In this interview Barbara asks: Your family left after the Soviet invasion - actually, you were in Paris. Your father was a diplomat, and you came to this country after the Soviet invasion in 1980.

Khaled Hosseini: We left Afghanistan in '76, well before the Communist coup in '78 and the Soviet invasion in '79. So I was fortunate to be in France when things fell apart back home. We came to the States in 1980.

I did not know that Khaled's father was a diplomat...

Kleo this information is given on many web sites.

There is a more scholarly site that speaks of the date when the Hazara were first noted in history and several sites that tell of how there are conflicting stories as to how the chose to be Sunni versus Shia but they all give credence to the beginning of the Hazara with the Mongol invasion mentioning Changiz Khan and Amir Timur’s Moghul soldiers.

Since the moghols would be all men they would have had to have had either camp followers or relations with local women.

Here is yet another site and above there are two site linked that the second site also continues the concept that the Hazara are descendents of Changiz Khan.

Yes, Barbara, I'm sure that information is given on many web sites.

Were the Mongols really all men? I had thought they travelled with women, although I had never considered whether they were their wives or camp followers. However, as they moved into conquered territories, I guess I would have assumed there were wives.

Kleo

You are so right Kleo to have a professor of Middle Eastern studies who specializes in Afghanistan would be so wonderful to add to this conversation - evidently here at UT there is a wonderfully recognized program - I will not have time till next week but I think I will persue seeing if we can get someone on board.

Of all the University web sites and I must have looked at 35 to 40 sites the one from UT is superior - I will include that site again. What is fun is the page has a link to the current weather and time in Afghanistan.

University of Texes MENIC - Afghanistan

I can't resist pointing out the trivial, as Barbara has posted a time link. Afghanistan is one of the places on a half time zone. That means, instead of being a whole number of hours different, they are always a whole number of hours and a half different from standard time zones. My Uncle used to tease me about this mercilessly when we got telephone calls from Afghanistan, and I would ask what time it was. I just KNEW it couldn't be 12 1/2 hours different (or however many).

Kleo

Mahlia glad to see you were able to join us and on your remark of the relationships - we really do not have to go to South America do we with all the information of our own Jefferson...but glad you picked up on how this is part of all our culture -

I was so struck by this library who had a seminar entitled "Seeing Ourselves as Others See Us: How the Discussion of Ethnic Discrimination in The Kite Runner Helps Us With Our Own Racial and Ethnic Understanding"

CHATHAM COUNTY’S COMMUNITY READ PROGRAM 2004-05

The Kite Runner by Khaled Hosseini

Discussion #2: February 28, 2005. Monday, 7:30 P.M., Pittsboro Memorial Library, two blocks west on Highway 64 after Courthouse Circle in Pittsboro.

Panel: Judy Hogan, Jaki Shelton Green, Abdullateef Fisher

How does reading good literature help break down our stereotypes about other human beings, racial, ethnic, religious, class, and national?

For more skroll down on this site Friends of the Pittsboro Memorial Library

The interview with the author above has a couple of interesting points.

On the symbolism of the kites:

"Metaphor-wise, I'm not really sure. To me, kite flying is a symbol of freedom - especially for Afghanistan. One of the first things that the Taliban did was that they banned kite flying. It was a tragedy in every sense, because Afghanistan is very poor and kids have nothing to do - there are no TVs or anything, or at least back then. One of the things that really gave joy in life was flying kites, and when the Taliban banned that, I was very saddened personally. When they were ousted, one of the first images I saw on TV were these kids flying kites, and that really perked me up and made me smile".

Later on, he said that his wife told him that he "really has to do women better". So he is planning his next book around a central woman character.

Note: interesting that he said children have nothing to do, because there is no TV. I and many of us grew up when there was no TV, and we always found plenty to do.

Yes, Kleo the Moghols were all men, who more swiftly than any other group traveled long distances on horseback bringing with them additional horses that were dropped as they dropped. They would control the areas they conquered and broke those captured into groups of 10 and then 10 groups of 10 became 100 - they quickly became independent of the main army sending runners on horseback to the main group with information etc. etc. lots and lots of info on the internet about why they were so feared, how they captured so much territory, etc. etc.

Hehehehe looks like before we are finished we will know the entire history of this land - and we haven't even been curious yet about the Pashtun who are described on several web sites as descendents of the Lost Tribe.

Ann thanks for the short Bio - nice photo of him as a baby - I guess that must be his Dad.

Joan I wonder if that is a generation thing - BTV and ATV - I never thought of that with the kites and yes, the Talaban did stop the kite flying -- obvious but went over my head...

OK will be gone all day tomorrow but back tomorrow night - I leave you this to enjoy -- the weekend mouse at play

I'm fascinated by the simple beauty of the author's words that create such mystery and such fascinating portraits and relationships with so few words.

In the very first short chapter we are introduced immediately to the story's key elements. I love the way Hosseini says, "...the past claws its way out." Some life-changing event occurred for the narrator. The narrator must atone for past sins. There is a way for him to redeem himself. And Hassan immediately becomes unforgettable with the author's use of alliteration and physical imperfection: "Hassan the hare-lipped kite runner."

In chapter 2 we are introduced to most of the main characters and we are given some vivid physical descriptions and insights into key characteristics and relationships. Hassan - "...…even in birth, Hassan was true to his nature: He was incapable of hurting anyone. Out he came smiling." Amir - "I talked Hassan into firing walnuts." – Amir was the instigator, getting Hassan to take the chances, to do the dirty work. "....if I asked, really asked, he [Hassan] wouldn’t deny me....He never told on me." – This is key to their relationship. Baba - "...Baba is holding me, looking tired and grim." Right away, you see an important aspect of Baba and Amir's relationship that began as soon as Amir was born and his mother died. Rahim Khan - "I’m in his [Baba's] arms, but it’s Rahim Khan’s pinky my fingers are curled around. – Right away you know that Baba is Amir's father, but Amir physically expresses his love to Rahim Khan. Ali - "Ali, Hassan’s father, was gentle.....he would remind us that there was a brotherhood between people who had fed from the same breast." You are presented with the concept of brotherhood between Amir and Hassan as well as a relationship of friendship and of servant vs master.

We see in chapter 2 who his most important for for Amir and Hassan: "We spoke our first words. Mine was Baba. His was Amir. My name."

I wondered about the meaning of so many physical disabilities and imperfections of the characters. Hassan is hare-lipped. Ali has "a congenital paralysis of his lower facial muscles, a condition that rendered him unable to smile and left him perpetually grim-faced." Ali was crippled with polio.

In response to For Your Consideration Question #1: I think that all three men, Baba, Ali, and Rahim Khan are fathers to Amir. Both Baba and Ali are fathers to Hassan. Marni

I understand that the "flying of kites" can represent freedom in movement but could someone please explain to me why the taliban would ban this practice? They already curtailed freedom with the genocide they practiced. What difference did it make if the kids were out flying kites? Perhaps I am missing an integral point here.

Hi,

My name is Lisa, and I will be reading this book along with all of you. I have owned this book for quite a while, but never got a chance to read it. I look forward to discussing this book with all of you. It appears that all of you got a nice jump start on me yesterday. I am a full time paralegal so most of my postings will occur late at night. Hope to get to know all of you.

Lisa

Alf asks: "I understand that the "flying of kites" can represent freedom in movement but could someone please explain to me why the taliban would ban this practice? They already curtailed freedom with the genocide they practiced. What difference did it make if the kids were out flying kites? Perhaps I am missing an integral point here."

The Taliban are uneducated terrorists seeking totalitarian control of Afghanistan. Totalitarians are often paranoid, humans often fear what they don't understand, put the two together and just about anything could threaten a Talib. They used religion, Islam, as an excuse for their actions in Afghanistan, but they are no more Muslim than al Qaeda and the Saudi princes killing the Saudi people for control of the oil wealth of the Arabian peninsula. They feared the Koran so much, most of them couldn't read it.

Cults and totalitarians cannot allow fun or freedom of any sort. Fun allows a human mind to play and enjoy life. If the Afghans were to have any fun in life, it might paint the picture of the Taliban as ugly as they really are in comparison. This is very dangerous. Sadly, the Taliban are so ugly and unIslamic that not even the Iranian and most Arab fundamentalists could bring themselves to support the regime. As their isolation became more profound, their leaders more desperate, their methods became more cruel.

But, they started out by trying to kill what was cultural in Afghanistan. Kite flying is something Afghans do rigidly by custom--according to the book. In the way Afghans fly kites, raise pigeons, play cards, go camping, visit family, run to Reno for the weekend, spend Sunday at the flea market, they show the spirit of Afghans. The Taliban had to break this spirit in order to control Afghanistan. Winter is a long time in Kabul, spent mostly in the home. The Taliban, because they are not Godly men, tried to show that they were greater than the spirit of Afghans in winter, indomitable to the mountains, to the cold and the snow, It seems, Alf, such a petty and unnecessary deed. But, this is the Taliban: petty and unnecessary. And Afghans are philosophers about life, think of the negative contrast between the joy of a day flying and chasing kites under the shadow of the Hindu Kush in winter, compared with the deprivation in Kabul inside the home under the Taliban?

The Soviets and the British tried the same thing, to control Afghanistan, they tried to kill what was cultural. Many Afghan refugees fled the Soviets because of their interference with brideprice practices.

I think, Alf, your question is more important than my ability to answer it. It might help to understand the Afghans and the Taliban better, to think about this question while reading the book. The author is not writing about the Taliban, yet he and the Taliban considered kite flying in Afghanistan to be an important custom, important enough to write a novel about, and important enough to ban very early on.

Kleo

Hi, Lisa. Welcome to the Read Around the World Kite Runner book club. I haven't had the book for a long time, but I've heard about it and Tamim Ansary's West of Kabul, East of New York: An Afghan American Story for a long time, without reading either. I like the SeniorNet book clubs because they often pick up books I have meant to read or would like to read.

West of Kabul, East of New York: An Afghan American Story

Kleo

What we don't know here, if we have just read the first nine chapters

is: From the story of Emir's running away at the wrong moment and continuing to run away from more things as time passes, did he turn it around and become a better person or has he always been a person who runs from any trouble? Hmmmmm!

The lack of a feminine presence in the first chapters could mean many things--

Baba was so devastated by Amir's mother's death that he hasn't yet recovered.---

He has a healthy interest in women but its not revealed in these chapters--what takes him out so many evenings with his friend, Kahn?---

Do he and Hassan have a relationship so strong that women aren't needed?---why does he go to pieces when Hassan leaves??Ahhh, can I read ahead, Barbara?? You'll never know if I do!!

A welcome to SeniorNets Books and Literature section has just been sent your way. We are happy to have you aboard.

Thanks Kleo for your precise explanation of the taliban curtailing the practice of the Kite flying. Trust me, I did ask myself this question as I read the story. Is kite flying really that important to the Afghan culture that the Taliban would have demanded it be stopped?

for the second time, in order to participate in this discussion. The writing is very powerful, simple sentence construction, and nicely composed.I felt like a 12 year old was narrating the story in the first few chapters.

I noticed nothing improper between Baba and Rahim Khan, nor did I note the absence of woomen in Amir's life. To learn more about another culture it is important to cleanse one's expectations about how things "should" be.

The conflict from which Amir suffers is striking, he adores, needs, and depends on his servant,and at the same time he is jealous of the attentions which Baba shows to Hassan.

Christiane Northrup, M.D. is the author of a book called Mother-Daughter Wisdom She claims that by age 7, a child has determined the way the world works. There is a lot that rings true about this thought,and I can understand how one's world can change in a moment: "I became what I am today at the age of 12....."

There's been a lot said about popularity of kite flying in Afghanistan and why did the Taliban stop it, etc. I kept thinking about how different kite flying is pictured in the book compared to my experience flying kites in America. #1 - Almost nobody makes their own kites in America, as far as I know, unless its their special hobby. We buy them already made. #2 - We don't use glass string, as far as I know, and we don't bloody our fingers flying kites trying to cut the strings of other kites in competition. Can you imagine American mothers allowing their children to get cut in this game? Can you just see the warning labels on the kite kits? The Afghanistan children's kite flying is heavy duty physical competition.

ALF asked, "How important is kite-flying in Afghanistan?" I don't think any of us really can answer the question; only an Afghan could.

KLEO, how would your American-Afghan relatives answer it?

ANN, IMHO there is nothing wrong with reading ahead of schedule. Precisely that has been my practice all along, as reader and as discussion leader -- with the caveat that no essential plot details be given away prematurely (we did teeter precariously close the other day ...).

I agree with our new participant (hello VOUZON, WELCOME!) that there appears nothing inappropriate in the friendship between Baba and Rahim Khan, as it is described. Men in Islamic societies are more visible than the women (no woman would sit among men in an outdoor café!)

If the narrator does not mention women in his father's life, it may well be due to the fact that he doesn't KNOW and evidently doesn't miss anyone other than his mother. Hassan's father is alone, and there seems to be no woman in Rahim Khan's life either. It seems to me that the story is not ABOUT women per se, and the first chapters are a telescopically compressed "lead-in" to the heart of the story.

KLEO, two quick questions: what exactly does "jan" mean after a person's name (man or woman) ? Is it a form of endearment? only? or also of respect?

The addition of "agha" after a name IS a formal address, is it not? (as in "Read it again, please, Amir agha," Hassan would say. pg. 29)

One of the essential issues appears early in the book: the question of sin. Baba insists that, no matter what the mullahs are teaching Amir, there is essentially one sin only. Theft. (pp 17-18)
See Baba's explanation and also his liberal interpretation re drinking scotch and eating pork.

Amir at age eleven can recite verses from Khayyám, Hafez or Rumi's famous Masnawi; he takes on the whole class one day and wins. Baba is not impressed. He had envisioned a son who would share his consuming interest in soccer but Amir was a clumsy player and not EVEN a clamorous-enough fan!

LaterBaba expresses his keen disappointment, "There is something missing in that boy." and Rahim answers, "Yes, a mean streak."
That, of course, is debatable, as the narrator himself guiltily admits (e.g. his snapping at Hassan, and more to come).

May I suggest leaving a bookmark near pg. 29 for future reference to Shahnamah >, the tenth-century epic of ancient Persian heroes, specifically the story of "Rostam and Sohrab", briefly mentioned there, which "was Hassan's favaorite story".

As was posted recently, the writing is magnificent. The story heart-breaking.

P.S. I believe we have to immerse ourselves in this story and somehow temporarily suspend our own so very different cultural concepts -- or at least avoid comparisons, because there really IS no comparison.

TRAUDE - "How important is kite-flying in Afghanistan?" I don't think any of us really can answer the question; only an Afghan could.

Your question makes me think of the same question, only posed to Americans about their fondness for baseball, football, basketball, and perhaps posed to the British about their love of soccer or the Canadians about their love of ic hockey. As baseball holds the heart and soul of American youth, kite flying has the same place in Afghan culture.

While you await KLEO's response to your query about the word "jan," let me respond from the Persian standpoint, since the word is also used in Farsi. It is indeed a term of endearment. My husband, who is an Egyptian Muslim (thus an Arab, whose first language is Arabic, NOT Farsi) teasingly calls me Mahlia jan sometimes; I call dear friends or relatives by their names followed by the word jan. In Farsi, it is the same as using the word "dear."

The word "agha" is also used by Persians speaking Farsi, when one is being respectful towards a man - either in one's peer group or (as in the book), from a person of the servant class to one of a higher distinction. When the word is used in Farsi without a specific name - as one might call out "Sir! Sir!" in public to get someone's attention - it is a sign of respect. The word used for a woman in this context is "khanum" (Lady) and almost always preceded by the woman's name (unless just called out to get her attention, as in English one might say Miss or Ma'em).

Amir's father reminds me of an American father, who is disappointed that his son will not become a national sports figure. I used to coach youth soccer and remember hearing fathers (and some mothers) call out to the players, "what's the matter with you. Why can't you run the ball?"

I've never met any young people from the Middle East or Central Asia (whether they are educated or not) who do not know the history of some of the wonderful epics. And Rostam and Sohrab are indeed favorites! Just like American kids used to lose themselves in stories of Robin Hood or cowboys and Indians, or Daniel Boone (before electronics took over their world).the characters featured in the epics are almost burned into the blood and minds of the Eastern youth by retelling through the generations. And taking on the persona of the heroes (or heroines for girls) is as natural as breathing.

I especially liked your PS - there truly is no contemporarycomparison - the only thing that comes anywhere close for Westerners is the Native American culture of past generations - but by joining together in reading and discussing this story, posters who have not had the privilege of meeting people from Amir and Hassan's world or traveling in their country will learn a little bit about what it is like and perhaps will then have a better understanding of the culture and customs, as well as the people of the region. Enshallah!

MAHLIA, thank you for your post - I smiled in recognition because, as I was composing mine, I actually thought of mentioning baseball, because it is such an overwhelming phenomenon, albeit one that never captured my interest, sorry to say.

I do no better with soccer, though. A lifetime ago when I studied in Italy, a friend dragged me to a soccer match in Naples, Italy. You know how excitable the Italians are! Well, the crowd roared and I was surely the only soul in the place who had no clue and, sadly, could not have cared less.

Thank you for confirming what I guessed about the use of "jan" as a form of endearment, and "agha" = a formal, respctful address. Your explanations are helpful, generous and always cheerfully given, never a lecture.

The plot picks up with the important scene of the blue kite dogfight and the mutual roles of Amir and Hassan (the Prince and the Pauper?) in the victory and the kite running.

I was a bit surprised at two things: one, that Amir "won" in this first kite episode (usually, you have to wait for the "happy ending" stuff, but in this case the victory is key to the following rape scene as, juxtaposed, the contrast is intended to lend reality to Amir's guilt); two, that Baba suddenly starts to talk to his son in a friendlier manner because of the kite victory (a lifetime of discomfort between father and son -- wiped out by one "win"? Wow.)

Fortunately, the sudden thaw in father-son relations begins to freeze up again over time. I say fortunately because it wasn't ringing true and seemed a bit "cooked up" (as if deepseated, lifetime-in-the-making psychological relationships can be miraculously and profoundly changed by a single, sporting event... I just don't think so).

In fact, at this early stage, I sense the strings above the puppets and that's not a good sign. I should be caught up in what John Gardner called the "vivid, continuous dream" of the fiction. In other words, I should be swept away by events and personalities, but instead I can sense that I am being "manipulated" because the heartstrings are being manhandled (none too deftly) at this early stage (the "set-up" stage, I'll call it). Although it's too early to say this is a fatal thing for the book, I will say that it's an ominous thing for the book. For me, if not for other readers.

Assef, too, worries me. I mean as a character. First the rape scene, then the birthday gift, a biography of Hitler. What if, as one would expect, Amir opened the present in front of both his father and Assef? Of course it doesn't happen that way. Amir opens it privately, then tosses it.

When characters are as monochromatically dark and evil as Assef is shaping up to be, I worry.

"Senator, I knew Adolf Hitler and you're no Adolf Hitler," I want to say to the character.

But perhaps it's too soon to bemoan the lack of "grayscapes" in the author's black-and-white landscapes. Perhaps he will right his ship while there's still plenty of time to right it.

KEVIN: Assef and Hassan don't have a gray-scape; they are good and evil. I think that is an ok literary device. A friend suggested that Hassan is supposed to be a Christ figure. If the author was from a Christian background, I might agree.

Amir is more interesting: he "won't stand up for anything" and can't get interested in soccer, but excells at the agreesive sport of cutting down other kites, and uses his mean streak on the one who won't stand up to him (Hassan). I assume he is supposed to be a mixture of Assef and Hassan. As he watches the rape he recognizes not just the cowardice in himself (he says he wants to think it's cowardice) but the part of himself that is Assef.

JoanK says: KEVIN: Assef and Hassan don't have a gray-scape; they are good and evil. I think that is an ok literary device.

This is just my personal taste. I don't mind Christ figures and Satan figures in religious allegories (Pilgrims' Progress, anyone?), but in modern literature I don't like it -- at all.

It's so unrealistic that it distracts me from everything the author is attempting to do (again, that "vivid, continuous dream" thing). Very, very few people are Assefs and very, very few people are Hassans, so why populate your novel with them?

Unless Hosseini is writing a Morality Play and I just don't know it yet, in which case, mea culpa.

I think my response to the characters is influenced by the way the writer describes them and the events as they occur. The story so far is told through the eyes of a young boy, Amir himself. Short on introspection, the long term impact of the consequences are simply hinted at, at this point. The words and actions themselves, straightforward and unadorned, create and carry an impact that captures the reader's attention just enough to move on.

It is the magic of words/language that is, for me, more captivating than other elements that go into creating a novel. The words are easily understood and with the gift of irony that Kahn says Asmir possesses. For me, these events don’t seem contrived, simply because being so drawn in to the story itself, events deliver a quick and profound surprise without expecting a psychoanalysis of why it happened that way.

Bern

Wonderful photo of Afghan boys with their Kite Boys with Kite

And here is a wonderful article featured in afghanmagazine.com reviewing and further explaining the Kite flying and Kite running included in the book. The article does go on to explain the Kite Flying as well as the relationship between the two boys and how they are a metaphor or rather a fictional depiction of Afghanistan Political History and the sociopolitical climate of Afghanistan. The first part of the book that we are discussing the book is describing the sociopolitical climate of a lost Afghanistan during the last days of the monarchy of Zahir Shah and the regime that overthrew him.

We have several new faces joining us - but first I must in awe express that the post marni0308 shared Post #308 is one of the most beautifully written posts I have read on SeniorNet - the loveliest description of chapter Two expressing the beauty as well as the ambiguity of the relationships between the characters. Just lovely - it was a joy to read and I am so grateful you are reading and posting with us. You have a gift for writing that has not gone unnoticed.

Isn't it just wonderful to be exposed to the talents of those of us who choose to share in these book discussions - I love it...

Alf it appears we will be hearing more about the Talaban and how control is part of power - I do not know about you but I am scrambling to read the book on my shelf written by Ahmed Rashid - purchased these books in the heat of the aftermath of 9/11 and they piled up faster than my reading scheduled allowed.

Paralisa/Lisa WELCOME looking forward to your posts - so glad you found us - I am also a night owl so we may be posting at the same time - that is a thrill isn't it to be talking in real time on the web. I still get a kick out of it when it happens.

Kleo Oh how sad and how true that every group or nation that want to control another goes after the culture of the nation - I love that you said - "Cults and totalitarian cannot allow fun or freedom of any sort. Fun allows a human mind to play and enjoy life. If the Afghans were to have any fun in life, it might paint the picture of the Talaban as ugly as they really are in comparison."

I love the cover of the book you suggest - one more I will have to add to my "to read" list ---

Ann hahahaha - read ahead my dear - just don't tell the story - now that you have read the 9 chapters were there any bits that you questioned. I know for me I questioned why the bully who sodomized Hassan is characterized as part German with the blond Arian looks who is thoroughly rude to his own parents - I did read that Afghanistan was on the side of Germany during WWII and there was some German colonization back in history - but I have not found anything to indicate that there is bad blood between Afghanistan and Germany and so I still wonder what that is all about.

Alf asking "Is kite flying really that important to the Afghan culture that the Talaban would have demanded it be stopped?' is a serious question since this book features and is named for the Kite flying or running which is another aspect of kite flying we do not practice here in the states.

Seems to me the Kite Running is a metaphor for how power is traditionally achieved in Afghanistan - I guess I am adding to this Kite Running the game the men play on horseback, Buzkashi which seems to me to be the same sort of game where you outwit and with what appears to be few rules there is this headlong free-for-all run for the prize.

Vouzon LC Welcome to you also Vouzon LC - now you have me wanting to go back and reread chapter Two to notice the tone - yes, like a 12 year old would tell a story...do you think the relationship between Amir and Hassan as well as Ali almost seems like the relationship we would expect to read about between mother and son - certainly he has a softer relationship with both Ali and Rahim than he seems to have with his father.

To me his father seems like a bull of a man - courageous in a man's world - and very political - not in the sense of having official political position but having a presense among people and he surrounds himself with many many people. He seems to be a very charismatic man much admired by all these friends and a man who lives larger than life. Fighting a bear - my oh my - the emblem of the Kingdom of Persia and Russia. From everything I have read on other web sites about the times, his house would have been not only in the high rent district but one of the grandest around.

But as you noticed as well, the father expects his son to follow in his footsteps doesn't he. Seems that he cannot abide what he observes as weakness. I wonder what his hot button is that what he observes to be weakness in his son upsets him so. There are times when Amir has snuggled up against his father but Amir does not feel the love or approval he needs or wants from his father does he. I understand a strain in the relationship between father and son is very traumatic beyond just the loss we all feel when we dwell on a less then all-loving relationship between parent and child.

marni0308 there sure are differences aren't there - the glass on the string - Whew - when I first read it my fingers were hurting - a lot of pain just to cut off your opponent - is that the message - when we fight for position by knocking our opponents we must experience pain; that there is no painless defeating or winning.

So many of these old 'games' or rituals have symbolic meaning lost on us today - it was only after reading of the symbolism in Bull Fighting ~ [crossing the boundary between sun and shade like life and death - the bull meeting the matador in his suit of lights playing the tragic representation of man's violent survival at the expense of nature] that I began to look for the symbolisms in these old customs. And so now I wonder about the symbolism in Kite flying and running.

I'll be back - need to stop for a short bit and get my dinner in the oven and eat some lunch - grrrr this daylight saving time always confuses my system but I am determined to get things better under control this year. Back in a bit...

Barbara: Thank you so much. You made my day! -

Regarding a recent comment "Very, very few people are Assefs...." - I disagree. Assef is a violent sadistic bully, a leader of bullies. Perhaps he was born a sociopath, perhaps things happened to him. He gets away with what he is allowed to get away with. I think there are many people like this. Look at all the articles in newspapers lately about trouble we are having in elementary schools with bullies (which has been going on since forever.) Some children have even committed suicide as a result of being bullied. And look at fraternity hazing. These things are widespread. We see in Nazi Germany how far this can go, how widespread it can become, when bullies know they can get away with anything they do, especially if there is bigotry towards a clearly identified minority group which they are allowed to torture and kill (Jews with the star of David, Hazara with their Mongol features).

Mahlia covered 'jan' and 'agha' in Iranian culture, and they are used the same amongst Afghans, as described. Afghans litter their speech with it much more than Iranians, but both cultures use it extensively as Mahlia indicated. I call all my female relatives Homayra-jan, Maria-jan, Sahar-jan, etc., etc. Men don't use it so much amongst themselves. Adults use it when addressing a child, older folks when addressing younger relatives.

'Agha' is not used much in American Afghan speech, but it is as Mahlia described. In addition to being used as a term of respect, in Afghan culture, it is also used to address a rich man.

Many of the details of Afghan culture are Persian, and I learned around Iranians, using 'jan,' greeting visitors, eating. Again, this is because when my Uncle first moved to America and married my Aunt (an American), there were no other Afghans here,so our social life was with the Iranian-American community. I pronounce 'jan' the Iranian way, a bit longer and softer than the Afghan. The Afghans laugh at me.

Kleo

Hi Marni --

Yes, there are plenty of schoolyard bullies. And yes, there are plenty of mean, rotten people in the world, too. Although I wish I could, I'm not arguing that point. The Biblical tale of Adam & Eve -- whether you believe it literally or metaphorically -- says that we all have within us a "dark seed" that some keep at bay better than others. I buy it metaphorically (it's cheaper that way).

All I am arguing is -- at least up to p. 109 -- Assef shows little if ANY subtlety of character, and ditto Hassan. Most of the "bad" people you allude to also contain elements of good in their character -- they are capable of kindness, have inconsistencies and incongruities of character. Also, the "good" show dark sides. Hosseini shows this with Amir, but not -- so far -- Hassan.

So, narrative-wise, Hosseini has yet to give us pause with Assef and Hassan. They are each completely predictable, at least in the opening fourth of the novel. Is this a good thing? Not really -- though I concede Hosseini may be "setting his readers up" (the "manipulation" I mentioned in my first post today would point that way).

I have nothing against the book. In fact, when I dislike a book completely I stop reading it, and I am nowhere NEAR that point with this one and in fact am finding much to enjoy. It's the characterization I'm arguing with -- admitting there's the huge caveat that I've yet to read 3/4ths of the book and may change my mind when all is written and done!

My point, then? At this early juncture, I sense that Assef and Hassan veer dangerously toward caricature -- evil and good, dark and light, unbelievable and unbelievable. I would like to sympathize with Assef in SOME small way, but Hosseini won't allow it. I would like to shake my head disappointedly at Hassan in SOME small way, but Hosseini won't allow it.

Yes? No?

Amir and Hassan do show more dimensionality of character than I think you see, Kevin. For example, Amir admits that he knows Hassan does not want to shoot the neighbor's German shepherd with his slingshot, but will do it for Amir. Amir sees the good in Hassan, and attempts to thwart it. Hassan sees the bad in the deed, but it willing to overcome it to do it for Amir.

I think that Assef may be a mistake as a character, though. However, he is not unreal. If you have ever known a sociopath you recognize that Hosseini is writing someone he had met. I have met a sociopath, and watched people interact with him.

That Assef is half German? Well, Afghans do marry Germans. Ariana Airlines used to fly through Germany, at the time of this book. Afghans then flew to the United States from Germany. I don't know if Ariana Airlines flew to the USA. However, this is how the early Afghans came to the USA, through Germany. When new Afghans arrived in the United States the phone call was, "So-and-so is coming from Germany, today." And Afghan children whose mothers come from foreign countries can be outsiders to Afghan society because the culture revolves around the home and the home around the women. An airline pilot will be gone from the home often. If the wife is not aggressive about learning Dari or Pashtun and becoming part of the extended family she will live in quite some solitude, making her children outsiders to the culture they live in. I see how an Assef could be created in these circumstances.

However, there are very few cultures where children are raised without women. I can't think of any, but there may be some. That there are not women stands out in a world view, not just an Afghan viewpoint. Women are what soften men and make them part of civil society. Whatever the author's intentions, that there are no women in these boys' lives, stands out.

Kleo

I am learning a whole new approach to reading a novel and I am still a little uncertain about this kind of paralleling a story with aspects of the real life history. Barbara, now that I have read your #324 entry, I feel a little divided between the two activities. I don’t know whether to spend more time on reading the novel or about all the engaging info from this link.

There is an interview with a poet, for example, who refers to Afghan children as "children of the light"? Couldn’t this be said of the children we have met already in this novel? Children who cast light whether through their illumination or their dark side.

Another interview with the author reveals a little of what goes on in the mind of the Hosseini as a writer.

“The role of fiction is to talk about difficult subjects, precisely about things that make us cringe or make us uncomfortable, or things that generate debate and perhaps some understanding……The writing process has always been full of surprises for me. The story takes unexpected twists and turns and that, to me, is one of the joys of writing.”

Reading everyone’s comments is just another opportunity for me to continue this multi dimensional approach. What a joy!

Trying to get caught up on your wonderful posts - these are a continuation of yesterdays thoughts ~~

OH yes, Traude how these words ring true - "I believe we have to immerse ourselves in this story and somehow temporarily suspend our own so very different cultural concepts -- or at least avoid comparisons, because there really IS no comparison." And yet, there must be some comparison, on a deeply felt basis don't you think - In order for there to be so much interest in the story along with the emotional reaction the story brought about while reading and although, the situations, culture and place is different, the feelings expressed and behavior of the characters are recognizable and that we can relate.

I thought I would link the two very important pieces of literature that the author chooses to include in this story - Here is just the chapter on Sohrab against Rostam and here is the entire Shahnama [Epic of Kings By Ferdowsi] 1883 Translation by Helen Zimmern

This wonderful site includes graphics of some of the Persian miniatures that accompany the story Persian miniatures in Shahnama

The Encyclopedia tells us that the Shahnama/Book of Kings [also written Shahnameh], was written by Ferdowsi around 1000 AD, and is the national epic of Iran, one of the definite classics of world literature. The contents along with the poet's style in describing the events takes the readers back to ancient times and makes the reader feel the events in the magical theater of their mind.

It is based on an earlier prose version which itself was a compilation of old Iranian stories and historical facts and fables. For over a thousand years the Persians have continued to read and listen to recitations from this masterwork in which the Persian national epic found its final and enduring form.

Written over 1000 years ago, the language used in composing the Shahnama is pure Persian with very few Arabic loanwords used.

This site is helpful to understand the beginning of the Shahnama which is the myth of prehistory and told in three parts Beginnings to AD 2000 ~ A Chronology of Central Asia, Afghanistan, and Iran

And finally this is a great PDF article on the importance of Shahnama and its core of Zoroastrianism the earlier religion of this part of the World. Firdausi a giant of Persian literature, author of the Shahnama, a translation of an even older Pahlavi work. Shahnama was originally composed for presentation to the Samanid princes of Khorasan, who were the chief instigators of the revival of Iranian cultural traditions after the Arab conquest of the seventh century.

And the other poem Traude mentions the AbridgedThe Masnavi I Ma'navi A series of couplets in rhymed pairs that makes up a characteristic type of Persian verse, used chiefly for heroic, historical, and romantic epic poetry. The famous work by Mevlana Celaleddin Rumi consists of 6 volumes.

Whew - but it was fun looking all that up so of course I had to share it with you...

Mahlia Love your example of an American father - some can be quite strong in their views of what their son should achieve can't they - looks like that is not a trait reserved solely for the likes of Baba.

Looks like the epic of Shahnama is a well known story that anchors the culture as most myths accomplish - I know here in Texas we all know the story of the Alamo and of the stories of valor of the captured Texans in Mexican custody - of course the stories of some of the early Texas Rangers and some of the Indian raids or, like the Easter Fires as explained by the parents of children in Fredericksburg. [Indian campfires circled the town and the children were told they were the fires of the Easter bunny dying eggs] - these stories are all a part of the basic culture in this state. And so it has been a joy as I read some of the ancient myths that makeup the culture of Afghanistan.

Traude Soccer huh - to tell the truth I love seeing them running all over the field but I really do not know what they are doing other than scoring goals in the net - the game that completely buffalos me is cricket - cannot figure that one at all.

Yes, I agree it is so nice to have folks reading with us like Kleo and Mahlia who can give us the inside scoop on the tidbits in this book.

Kevin "the Prince and the Pauper" great analogy - only this time it is a bit more poignant don't you think given the social position of our pauper...

This is definitely not a thinking mans story is it - lots of emotions going on - but then I have read few books written by a black author of childhood experiences that does not reflect deep emotion - and where the author is the Pashton he is trying to convey the relationship and humiliation of allowing this friend/servant with slave status, to be so battered without his taking the bully on...not easy to toss off as kid's stuff.

These issues I think are emotional rather than something to reflect on as if a grand adventure like Tom Sawyer filled with pranks in comparison.

Yes, you ask what I wonder about as well - is he supposed to be a prototype of Adolf Hitler do you think - I do not understand though since during WWII Afghanistan was on the same side with Germany - I am thinking Assef represents something in the relionship that Afghanistan had with Germany since WWII seems to play little in the history of Afghanistan.

This one will be interesting to find out about - this is one time when I do wish we had the author on the phone line - have not found any way to e-mail him directly - sent a not to his publisher last week so we shall see what we shall see. But the fact that this boy was made into an Arian German with all the negative characteristics of a Nazi storm trooper is a question as to why - why did the author choose to do that...

JoanK A Christ figure - hmmm I had not heard that but it sounds right on doesn't it - this is when I wish I had read the Shahnama and knew more about Zoroastrianism which is the tradition that the Magi came from - because something tells me in that mythology we may get a better metaphor to Hassan and Amir. Also the various allusions to the warriors of the past that run through out the book says to me this is like a characture of an epic tale using individuals to symbolize Afghan history.

Kevin yes, I can agree in literature there are very few Christs and Satans but history is filled with Christs isn't it when you consider the millions in various cultures that were sacrificed to increasing wealth for others by being slave workers to those who bettered themselves and the wealth of the society from the lives of these slaves. I do not think we can overlook that aspect of Hassan's character which makes the choice Amir made all the more confusing - is Hassan his friend or his servant/slave...

WELCOME bmcinnis so pleased you joined us - "It is the magic of words/language that is, for me, more captivating than other elements that go into creating a novel." Yes, you remind us again of the beauty of the words and how simply they are written so they sound like the retelling of a child's story. I have heard so many when they relate stories of their childhood sound like the child they were and often laps into language and accents used when they were children. I remember my Grandmother looking off in the distant as if everything she told us was on some distant movie screen and of course her German came fast and thick.

Bern--

I think it's totally valid to read a book without any outside influences or knowledge of the culture. I am enjoying all of Barbara's research into Afghan culture as I am learning from it. I am enjoying the book in another way because it is a culture I am totally familiar with. Barbara considers it a story of the sociopolitical structure of Afghanistan. Traude considers it a human story. While I am familiar with the former, and learning from Barbara's research, Traude's approach to the book is more how I see it, a human story. Take your pick, or find your own middle and tell me about it.

In my other book club we read authors of the Lost Generation (Hemingway, Fitzgerald, Dos Passos, Stein). About 3/4 of the folks in there love bibliographical information. The rest of us, myself included, aren't interested in it. Our discussions are great even with this divided opinion in our approaches to literature.

On consideration though, if you spend less time on the novel, and more on the links, will you get behind?

Kleo

"This one will be interesting to find out about - this is one time when I do wish we had the author on the phone line - have not found any way to e-mail him directly - sent a not to his publisher last week so we shall see what we shall see. But the fact that this boy was made into an Arian German with all the negative characteristics of a Nazi storm trooper is a question as to why - why did the author choose to do that... Barbara"

It may be that there are other intentions that the author has with this character. I'm not sure how important his Germanity is, in spite of the Hitler comments. But, as I said before, Afghans do intermarry with Germans.

However, Tajiks are Aryans, as are Persians in general. This is what the Afghan national airlines is called, Ariana, or Aryan. It is also the root word for "Iran." Pashtuns are not Aryans, I don't think. I'm not sure about this. The Tajiks in Kabul at this time were considered the intellectual leaders of the country. This may be a reference to the Aryan Tajiks, not to Germans in particular.

When Afghans intermarry with other Aryans their children are more often blue or green-eyed and fair haired. Afghans who are not the children of intermarriage can be fair-skinned, fair-haired and have light eyes.

So, I don't know that this is particularly about Aryans, this boy. Or is it about Tajiks, another ethnic group in Kabul, stirring the mix? The families are speaking Dari, which was common amongst wealthy Pashtuns at the time, in Kabul.

Afghans don't normally open gifts in front of guests. At American style birthday parties if only women are present the gifts are sometimes opened in front of the guests. Other than that, when I go to an Afghan's home during a gift-bearing occasion, I give the gift, am profusely thanked for it, then the wrapped gift is set aside with others. Boxed candy is a common Afghan gift. Assef can rest assured that the gift will not be opened in front of Amir's father.

All my comments about Afghans in general are, of course, about the Afghans I know in America.

Kleo

KEVIN: the author agrees with you! From one of Barbara's links:

" In hindsight, Hosseini wished he had added more humanity to Asif because he is too terrible to be considered human at all. By the same token, Afghan history is not that simple but a complex jigsaw of interrelated equations".

This is a first novel, after all.

Well, Joan, I agree with Kevin, too, but I'm not sure I buy the author's comments! There are humans as terrible as this boy. Why would Afghan society, so harsh, be immune from creating them?

About Afghans and Jesus and Mary. Jesus is a revered figure to Afghans, as is the Virgin Mary. Afghan women pray to Mary, and ask her to intercede on their behalf in serious matters. Jesus, Mary, and Joseph are all very common Afghan names. I know more Afghans names Jesus (Essa) and Mary (Marie, Maria) than any other names.

Kleo

hehehe Kleo and bmcinnis I am the kind of reader that next to my chair is both a Dictionary and my trusty Ecyclclopaedia of Traditional Symbols by J.C. Cooper with the computer only a room away. When I was a kid I spent hours and hours in an attic that you entered from a trap door in the ceiling of a closet and that only a child could stand in - but the attic had clean wooden floors, a couple of trunks and an old set of Encyclopedia's that the original owner left behind when they sold the house to my parents. In those days I didn't need extra light or a pillow but would take what I was reading with my and look up everything.

I agree with Kleo you certainly can read cold an author and if the author has done their job the themes of the book should come through loud and clear but for some of us, ahummmm I just cannot go on until I know, is Ahmad Zahir a real musician - what is a green chapan worn over a thick sweater - where is Ghargha Lake etc. And then of course I get lost in one bit of information leading to the next - I am loving all the background that tells me how ancient this land is and the growth of the Afghan culture.

I must say though, had I not looked into the tribes and read about the Hazara I would not have appreciated the roll of Hassan and the poignancy of the relationship nor the confusion of the behavior of Amir towards Hassan. There is some alluded to in the book when Hassan irons Amir's clothes and prepares his breakfast however, I did not know from that reading that the Hazara were actually taken as slaves and their slave status was only changed in the early part of the twentieth century. I even think this colors the later part of the book but lets wait till we get there.

I share what I research but we will each share how the book affects us as an individual - that is how we learn from each other.

Oh, yes, Barbara, that is my image of you. I greatly appreciate your ability and willingness to distill what you learn into a few words so I can pick and choose from what you've learned. I feel like I'm cheating by letting you do all the work, but I'm learning so much from your work!

Kleo

Hi, Kevin. Thanks for responding to my message.

Yup, Assef certainly contains a dark seed - more likely a bad seed! I guess my main point just had to do with how people and circumstances surrounding "bad seeds" can determine the extent to which they do damage. Let's see how Assef is controlled.

Assef doesn't show subtlety of character to date. I don't care, though. He's very frightening, evil. He helps to make a good story, whether he's all bad or not.

Hassan may seem all good. It didn't matter to me. I just loved him. I don't see him as a simple character. You don't see into his thoughts because the narration is through the eyes of Amir. I think Hassan may grapple with a lot of feelings and we just don't see them. At any rate, he has so many endearing traits; he's fun, agile and athletic, loving, intelligent, nice, good. I think one of his roles in the book is to be a contrast to Amir, and Hassan always shows Amir up, innocently. It seems that whatever Amir does, Hassan can do it better, even though he's a lowly servant and uneducated. Obviously, this will lead to trouble.

I just read Jack London's Call of the Wild for another book club. Buck, the dog main character, loves his master John Thornton without condition. He idolizes his master. Thornton tests Buck's love by ordering him to jump off a 300-foot cliff into the sea, just to see if Buck will do it. Buck charges off without hesitation and Thornton has to grab him desperately to keep him from falling to his death. Hassan reminds me of that. Remember his first word was "Amir"? He loves Amir without condition. Also, he is Amir's servant and is expected to obey, so he is motivated by both love and duty. Marni

Wow. Long time no Call of the Wild! I remember when I went on a Jack London tear. Read all of his stuff. Dog stories, survival stories, Yukon stories, writer stories (the autobiographical Martin Eden), and so fifth. Interesting choice for a book club!

bmcinnis -- the book, the book! Remember Shakespeare's quote: "The book's the thing!" Time and links can wait.

Barbara you are knocking yourself out. Man. May I never host anything in THIS neck of the woods. I'd fail with grounded colors.

OK. I'm about done already with the characterization thing. Why do some people spell it "Asif," though? Are there different books or something? I think mine spells it "Assef," and it's not like books to get all personal and spell any which way they want.

marnio308 - yes, what is this that folks must prove how loyal someone is who is devoted to them and they know it...as if baiting them and enjoying seeing their devotion in all its fullness? Doesn't feel too good does it...

OK Kleo you sparked another research project and ho ho ho a look at Tajiks: one of the principal ethnic groups of Central Asia, and are primarily found in Afghanistan, Tajikistan, and Uzbekistan

What I found was a great majority of Tajiks follow the Sunni form of Islam, although small Ismaili and Jafari Shia minorities also exist in scattered pockets and in Afghanistan, Tajiks who follow Jafari Shiism are called Farsi.

The popular forms of Islam practiced by the Tajiks often bear the influence of Zoroastrianism and pre-Zoroastrian cults that was the religion followed before the advent of Islam to Central Asia. We know that the Shahnama has its roots in Zoroastrianism - of course I'm off now to learn more about Zoroastrainism.

And one of the encyclopedia web sites says, large Tajik-speaking Jewish communities have existed since ancient times in the cities of Samarqand and Bukhara, and in smaller numbers in Herat, Kabul, and other Tajik centers. Over the 20th century, the majority of these Tajik-speaking Jews emigrated to Israel and the United States, although many of these emigrants maintain ties with their homeland.

If there was an exodus of Jews I wonder if the Nazis were shipping Afghan Jews off to the concentration camps and that could be the prototype behind Assef. Looks like there was a healthy Jewish population at one time.

Some place I read that the Tajik were descendents of the Turks but all the web sites I read tonight show every reason that the Tajik have ancient tribal lines to Iran and this Central Asian area of the world.

I have a great number of Indonesian acquaintances and I notice they do not usually open a gift in front of the one who gives them the gift but they do open gifts at a large party. But then they may be adapting to American ways at the large parties.

Several of you are discussing the role of Assef and come to think of it when I first read the book I have to agree with Kevin, I thought this character was too "simple" - Assef reminded me of Draco Malfoy in Harry Potter. The blond, thoroughly evil young man who is richer than Croesus, a very one dimensional character.

Thinking on it though, I do not think Assef has to be more than he is because the story I think is not about or because of Assef but rather this horrid thing happened to Hassan by Assef - that is his only role - the bringer or giver of sadistic horror and Amir did not stop him. Like the Shahnama myth - The initial 3000-year battle between the forces of Ahura Mazda (Good) and Angra Mainyu (Evil)

If we look at Amir as a boy who did not have the skill and was afraid for his own safety - who was not the bear like boy, son of his father who took nothing from any man, nor the boy like Hassan who would, like the dog in Jack London's book, jump over cliffs for him, he was not fearless and he did not know how to win this battle we have one kind of compassion.

If Amir and Hassan were the Sultans of Kabul, living out the good and evil written about in the Shahnama then Asim's failure to beat Assef would be prophetic as in the Shahnama, there is the destruction of Ahura Mazda's cosmic world by Angra Mainyu which brings the second phase of creation to an end.

However, Angra Mainyu who had entered Ahura Mazda's creation through a crack in the sky and who had polluted the water, poisoned the plants, and killed both the sacred bull and Gayomart cannot bail out. Truth, whixh has patched up the sky, keeps Angra Mainyu trapped within creation. And so we have a trapped Amir...?

The confusion within Amir after his loss of face is like a maelstrom - or the chaos that is the stew of life, no one to talk to, not his father or Rahim, no one to ask to go after Assef and report him to at least his parents, he cannot talk to Hassan much less Ali, he must confront what he considers to be his cowardness; because his father has said there was something missing he believes he is a coward.

There is fear, and the trauma of seeing abuse as well as knowing how physically brutal this boy can be. Amir is not a natural fighter and yet there was never an attempt to teach him how to fight - no wonder he wants no memory of the event and for Hassan to go away - either that or go mad and block out all memory but then how does he take care of himself with Assef still in the neighborhood...? Amir is trapped in his stew or his chaos or in creation as the myth in Shahnama...

I was very interested in my reaction to the story -- it made me think about myself. I know that if I had been Amir, peering down that alley, I would have run away, hopefully to try to get help. And I wouldn't have felt the burden of guilt that Amir feels. But I can't even imagine myself doing what Amir did later -- hiding money and accusing Hassan of stealing so he would be sent away.

This tells me that I give myself permission to be a physical coward but never to be a moral coward. I think this is a matter of gender conditioning. Women are not supposed to be physically brave, so, they may be sorry when they aren't, but don't feel the deep sense of shame that Amir feels (we'll see later what The Kite Runner poses as the analogous shameful situation for women). But women are supposed to be morally brave, and a moral failure IS shameful (not only sexual morals but other morals as well).

I'd be interested in what you others think. Which of those two acts (not helping Hassan and getting him sent away unjustly) struck you as worse? (Logically, If Amir had tried to rescue Hassan, we know he wouldn't have been able to help him, while Amir's false accusation changed Hassan's life. But I'm not talking logic here but emotions).

" the story I think is not about or because of Assef but rather this horrid thing happened to Hassan by Assef - that is his only role - the bringer or giver of sadistic horror and Amir did not stop him."

I disagree on two counts. First, it's not Assef's only role. I think Assef also represents the dark side of Amir. When Amir watches Assef rape Hassan, part of the horror is that he recognizes himself in Assef. For that purpose, Assef needs to be the one-sided character that he is.

Second: the story is not about what happened to Hassan!! The story is about what happened to Amir!! It took me a while to realize this. Perhaps that is the essential moral failure of Amir: he is describing the events in terms of there effect on him, not on Hassan. For example, when he recognizes the pain his accusation has caused, he doesn't say "Oh, what pain Hassan, Ali, and my father are in". He says: (quoted from memory -- please correct) what have I become that I could cause such pain.

Yes Joan I see what you are saying and agree - being very pensive here as I say this - more than ever now I do think that the whole scenario of both how he did not help Hassan and than the despicable way he arranged for Hassan to leave his home, although I do not know if there any other way to force Hassan and his father to leave and Amir needed to be free of the "good" Hassan - I do see this as the story of the end of Ahura Mazda's cosmic world by Angra Mainyu.

Ahura Mazda ("Lord Wisdom") was the supreme god, who created the heavens and the Earth. Ahura Mazdah was the god of prophetic revelation, and bore both Ahriman [Alternative name of Angra Mainyu, the personified principle of darkness] and Ormazd [good].

...and than Angra Mainyu [evil] enters Ahura Mazda's creation through a crack in the sky and pollutes the water, poisons the plants, and kills both the sacred bull and Gayomart cannot bail out.[The primeval man in Persian mythology who was created by the supreme god Ahura Mazda. Gayomart lives as a spirit for 3,000 years, then assumed the corporeal form of a handsome youth]

According to the myth Truth, patches up the sky and keeps Angra Mainyu trapped within creation. And so we have a trapped Amir, the handsome youth who like the myth - Gayomart lived in this form [hamdsome youth] for 30 years, but was poisoned by Ahriman - the beginning of real life that is the mix of good and bad within each of us - that is Amir.

Reading this book reminds me why I rarely read fiction. If my reading is interrupted with thoughts of why the author is painting the character of Ali in the way he did, it has already taken away any empathy with the main character, Amir. I kept hoping he would fall in a well, but alas no such luck.

The author has already told us that Ali is a Hazara and a servant, and both are on the bottom of the totem pole in his society. He not only paints him ugly, he must paralyze his lower face and then give him polio so that he has an ungainly gait.

Ali's son Hassan is also disfigured with a hare lip. But by the end of Chapter nine they have been driven out by Amir's deception, and after years of work have nothing to show for their labor.

I am not enthused about discussing fictional characters in a book, and especially those that I would like to accidently knock off. I would have preferred Hassan to tell the story, but then Khaled Hosseini would not write that story.

Barbara asks in question six in the heading, "what does the author think about anarchy vs capitalism". The political dimension of the book reveals that the Hazaras are at the very bottom of the heap as regards any influence or chance at moving up in the hierarchy in Afghanistan. Hosseini makes this clear early in the book.

I would think the author would favor 'monarchy' since his family, he tells us in the first pages of the book were involved with the king. Kings and their sycophants deserve whatever the people decide for them, which is what my country chose, so I applaud the Afghans for deposing the king.

It is with much irony that as Khaled Hosseini is writing of the change that is happening in Afghanistan and has Baba worried, a Marxist leaning Hazara became prime minister of Afghanistan in the real world.

Hosseini and his family left the cushy embassy in Paris for America during this time, and as we start the next chapter Baba and Amir will do the same.

It was not anarchy vs capitalism, but Marxism vs Islamism that arose in Afghanistan. Civil war ensued, and the Soviets and Americans took sides and made it a contest of Marxism vs capitalism, with America supporting the Islamists and the Soviets supporting the Marxist Hazara.

Real life is more interesting than fables and fairy tales to me. Fables have been used to distort history so much, and make heros of villains that the entire perception of fact vs fiction has been skewed. I am amazed daily at the people who can't seem to separate the two.

Discussing fictional characters as though they are real is difficult for me, and since I wanted to kill off most of them in the first two chapters, any posts I make will probably have more to do with the real world than the 'fictional' world.

I will continue to read along, as this is a really enjoyable discussion with great participants.

Fifi

JoanK -- Yep, I think most of us would agree with you: the moral cowardice of planting money and accusing friends of robbery tops the physical cowardice of standing by in fear while a friend is physically attacked.

Fifi -- Your post cracks me up! You'd like to KILL most of the characters in the first two chapters?!? Great stuff, that.

My only problem is with your jaundiced view of fiction. When I read history books, I'd like to kill most every character in the first two chapters as well -- so what's the difference?

Dewey Decimal is as Dewey Decimal does (as they don't say).

Fifi, I agree with much of what you say; however, when I read a book—any type of book, I automatically become a part of what is going on, not as a participant exactly, but with a kind of omniscient view, (well, not quite) one who hovers over each of the characters like a doting parent, perhaps experiencing each one of the characters as if he/she were the only person in my world. Try that for a view and you will see what I mean. Bad or good. saintly or of the devil, my emotions are with each of them, not as a judge but as one trying to learn through and about them, inside and out. This stance, of course, creates a kind of tension, the power of which is paralleled only by the skill and creativity of the author.

This probably doesn’t make much sense but because of my lifestyle (a nun) my world of interpersonal relationships has been somewhat limited but limitless in my perceptions of them. What a life!! Bern

I read both fiction and non-fiction and when its fiction, I tend to get lost in the story. I don't try to see how this or that myth is connected to my book. I just enjoy the story and the author's writing.

Having said that, I really do appreciate all of the side info that has been presented here. Some of it, I already knew from reading other books about the Middle East, most non-fiction, but written in a sort of fictional way. I have particularly enjoyed Bruce Feiler's books about "Abraham" and "Walking the Bible" and have discussed them here on SN. Persian, who has a wealth of info in her quite bright head, filled in both stories for the posters and we did look up many links for more depth. Its a learning process that I have enjoyed.

I wondered when Barbara would get to Zorastrianism, as much of the tradition in Islamism comes from that ancient faith. In fact, I see Zorastrainism, in many of our different cultures and faiths.

Before we go ahead, I am surprised no one seems to have mentioned Baba's religious beliefs concerning the sin of stealing(although I may have missed those comments). He does make a pretty strong point about how theft affects more things than most of us have considered.

Does anyone remember the old WWII movies about the Germans and Hitler? In fact there is a newer one about dancing that has similar blonde blue eyed evil young men who are following Hitler and in that, reporting everyone who does not. Fantastic film. Only about ten years old. Can't think of the title. Darn! Well, I've slept since then. Ahh, Google went right to it, "Swing Kids". And the story line was quite true. For anyone who is interested I will give a link. Knowing that it doesn't come up here but that I have mentioned it. Germany's swing kids

I am leaving on vacation at noon today and may not get back here until next Sunday so carry on, Barbara and fellow posters and I will read all the posts and try to catch upon my return.

A nun? What is your order? Where are you living? Are you retired or still in action? Sorry to be so nosy but I have known many wonderful nund over my brief lifetime and always ask those questions. I once met a nun from the Sisters of Notre Dame in the DC airport and as we talked and I asked my questions, she revealed to me that my aunt(also a nun of her order) had been principal of her high school in Chicago. For me, it always pays to be curious. And, it is really a small world. Again, welcome to our discussion.

Today is one of those gray days - after a most glorious weekend the sun is still not peeking out to dry up this humid cover.

Sort of like the story - I think most of us are more used to cheering for the white hat and here the story teller is confusing us. Amir is not a white hat and yet, we want to get behind him all the while knowing he is the main character in this book - are we being set up for a Redemption story I wonder.

I love this Luke Powell photo of a group of men and boys before the Russians entered Afghanistan - confident looking, with the trained bird probably used for hunting, some are drinking their tea, one fingering his beads, a couple of hunting rifles in view, boys trying to stand like they belong - I am sure the look Bara would have preferred to observe in his son Amir. The Bird in Jallalabad

JoanK - great point, so glad we are reading this together -- "I think Assef also represents the dark side of Amir. When Amir watches Assef rape Hassan, part of the horror is that he recognizes himself in Assef. For that purpose, Assef needs to be the one-sided character that he is."

Sure adds up with all the small mean ways that Amir treats Hassan - being hurtful just because he can - which is what I find to be the root of the behavior of so many who abuse others. I read somewhere that is why and how a group of soldiers who do not have a superior around to impress, like the German soldiers in places like Italy, will brutalize not only those captured but the citizens as bands of soldiers marauding through the countryside - it is because they can - they have power in their position and because they carry arms which changes their thinking.

Amir can because Hassan is not really his friend but like a pet who is there and who he can call on to play with on his terms and who because of the difference in their station in life he can constantly remind Hassan of those differences while Hassan doesn't have any choice. Thinking on this seems to me that Hassan's only choice is to face life with good cheer or become angry giving in to himself as a victim. But Amir strips him of everything - all he had was his good name - who said Hassan was a Christ figure - Whew that is hitting the nail on the head isn't it.

But then, no excuse other boys have poor relationships with their father, Amir is made human - that is what I get here - he is not a white hat but the ambiguity that is real and that is hard to read about especially in one so young. Ouch...who said they think of "Who I am" ouch...I'm not a clean white hat either...ouch, ouch.

Fifi - hehehe - "I wanted to kill off most of them in the first two chapters," Oh if we could make the world into our ideas of who and how it should be peopled

But I get your point - the protagonist in this story is not a white hat is he...

I thought it was interesting that you saw the mention of kings as literal to the king of Afghanistan - when I read it to me it was yes, real kings but for me it was saying more a line to those who ruled and controlled this land called Afghanistan almost like as Christians we are related to the King meaning Jesus. Hard to describe I guess the word would be metaphoric kings rather than a direct descendent of the last king. I think the song/poem included sent my mind in that direction and therefore an easy jump for me to myth stories. Interesting to me how we all read into words a different association.

You will just love posting when we tackle these later chapters won't you, when the story wraps itself around "the real world than the 'fictional' world."

Kevin another 'elimanator of characters' in the house - I think it is funny - wacko - bam - Arnolds are in the house...

bmcinnis prefers to be a doting parent hovering - well hover we can but even as a parent there isn't much we can is there to "make" them be "good" - all we can do is watch and guide - which gets us back to Amir - he never does have much guidance does he - he is just supposed to grow up and absorb how to behave - hmmm how much here is like father like son I wonder because Baba is his idol - or maybe not but rather the one he wants the attention from, the attention that he had been getting from Ali. Rahim seems to be more concerned with Amir's character than Baba.

Like Ann I too wonder what kind of nun - my sister was a Dominican for 30 years but got permission from Rome to leave the Convent a few years back. In fact she continues to teach in the same college she was assigned to about 10 years before she left the convent. She has been the Dean of the philosophy department all these years. She also is a wizz on the computer having created a couple of web sites including an small company that online sold used and remainder books. She successfully sold it, lock stock and barrel as they say, to a German company last year.

aha Ann so you knew the issues surrounding Zoroastrianism would come up...amazing how much we can learn by looking deeper into a book isn't it...I am so glad you reminded us of Baba's thoughts on the greatest sin...like ripples or in some cases like the explosion of an atom bomb, what we do good or bad...

Yes, I do remember Swing Kids - my memory of that movie was that differences were not tolerated in Germany during this time leading up to WWII. Do you think that was the message of Assef - I really though came away with a more sinister message that Assef's behavior had nothing to do with curtailing through fear but was simply out of control depraved behavior for the purpose of creating fear. I thought it was startling the control he appeared to be wielding in his home with his own parents.

I wondered though, the book made it sound so easy but have any of you observed children, or yourself for that matter, who have been so upset with themselves they want someone else to acknowledge they did not act the "right" or in most honorable way...?

ANNE, regarding your post # 347:

Actually I have commented on Baba's religious "stance" in my long post # 317, where I also cited the page in the book where Baba, uncharacteristically holding a delighted Amir on his lap, tells his son that, no matter what the mullahs are saying in school, there is only one sin, THEFT. The passage also shows Baba's liberal views on drinking scotch (of course a non-no for Muslims).

For bmcinnis : We have met elsewhere before. Welcome again! It is good to have you with us here, too.

It was you (unless I am mistaken) who said something earlier about "judging"; the word jumped out at me and I agree.

For my part, I refrain from drawing early conclusions in any book, and from judging a character OR "reprimanding" the author prematurely for any perceived shortcomings.

We read differently, I have discovered, and for reasons we have never been asked to explain - but then, why would we have to? As in everything else, there is no ONE way, no RIGHT OR WRONG way

For my part, I read every contribution, carefully, and more than once if needed, and I answer, politely. I engage in this activity voluntarily and gladly; I never come in a discussion with gloves on. The very thought is anathema to me. I have never looked upon the participants in any discussion as sparring partners, thank you, and I am not about to do so now.

In the case of this book it is my emphatic personal objective to try and absorb and understand as much as is humanly possible for me from the narrative.

I read for my own pleasure and edification and NOT, NOT from the viewpoint of a literary critic who looks carefully for flaws in form and substance and finds fault with about everything there appears in the first 100 pages. Some of those very critics have recently missed the mark by a (very) long shot.

I've really enjoyed reading everybody's posts. I have a few thoughts to add, also, on the first 109 pages, some of which you may all agree with, and some not.

I'm quite surprised by a number of things in the text and I did like Karmie's point way back there on what was really going on between father and son.

I am interested in some of the bits about Afghanistan we are getting from the author, such as all Afghans exaggerate, to extremes. I am left wondering , since this IS an Afghan protagonist, (and that is of the author's choosing), if we can actually believe what we're seeing from his eyes or how many grains of salt we need to be bringing here.

I liked Fifi's point about why this particular boy is the narrator. That is a good point! I'd like to talk about it more.

I found the "one sin" concept interesting as you've said, as was the rationalization of drinking. I think we heard in another discussion from somebody whose daughter was serving in Saudi Arabia how much clandestine drinking went on.

Barbara you ask about symbolism in the heading, I expect you mean the pomegranate, but I am struck by the structure of the book. I don't know about literary critics, but structure is always interesting to me, so for my own 2 cents, I'll add my own thoughts, as we know there are a million ways to look at a book and we hope to have all million here before we're thru: all are welcome.

There are several things repeated (and I think the plot, actually has been done before, Mystic River kind of parallels it at least to page 109 in Kite Runner, as do some other books, if you remove Afghanistan from the mix, the basic motivations and plot lines seem very familiar to me. In Mystic River the child was abducted and returned, but with much the same result. There are other similarities, also. I kept thinking to myself, I have read this.

Several things I have noticed so far are:

The comparisons, and the pairs, note how many things occur in pairs, the two boys and the comparison between their situations, the two fathers, the two mothers gone and how different and why? The houses in comparison, it's quite striking.

The author's style, in which he dramatically announces the conclusion before telling us the story. At first I found it beguiling, after a while as it continued, it began to irritate, I wanted to say, "don't worry, I AM going to read it, you don't have to keep egging me on."

I agree with Kevin that Hassan, especially, is somewhat of a caricature, he's TOO perfect, and it seems to go beyond normal childhood, again it reminds me of something, something in America but am not prepared to say what at this point.

The physical effort of "kite fighting:" this is something I'm not familiar with and spent most of the weekend talking with people trying to figure out how it is physically done, there doesn't seem to be a lot of energy expended, compared , again, to that of the "Kite Runner."

I think there's something symbolic in that Kite Runner concept but am not sure what it is.

The multiplicity of themes to watch:

Betrayal
Loyalty
Friendship
Jealousy
The quality of mercy
"One sin" of theft
Parent and child relationships

I was left wondering, because I have not read on, what made Baba's shoulders slump at the car? Was he told? And if so, what?

I am left wondering, what was Amir's greatest sin, if "theft" is the only sin, then was what Amir failed to do (sin of omission) or what he DID do (sin of commission) sinful at all? Joan K raised comparison between the two sins, I am wondering idly what the introduction of the concept "only one sin" does to this mix, as well?

This business of Amir using his position, even before the incident, for instance playing a trick on Hassan who was eager to hear the stories, on page 30. Why, one wonders, are some people compelled to cruelty when they encounter a person weaker OR in some way subordinate? Is this simple childish cruelty?

The torture of insects does not bode well, I think. I think the book is carefully written and am anxious not to miss a trick.

Lines like this, "And if Baba could forgive that, then why couldn't he forgive me for not being the son he'd always wanted?" (106, paperback), you could write a book about. Most everybody knows a Pushy Father who wanted his sons to be great athletes, and the aftermath when they could not. I remember a similar case in NJ which was quite tragic in the end, it's a common theme, too.

So there do seem to be some universal themes here we can all relate to, as well.

There's a lot in this book, isn't there? I LOVE all your points!

I reread chapters 1-9 and noticed some things I hadn't thought about before, all because of our fascinating discussion.

Running - Note the words in chapter 7 when Amir, witnessing the rape scene, says: "I ran." Running away is one form of running. References to running run through the book. Of course, the book is entitled "The Kite Runner." Kite running is another form of running - free spirited, wind running through the hair, fun...It's also a form of competition, running to win.

Baba and Amir - In chapter 4 Amir describes Hassan's favorite story, “Rostam and Sorhab” about the great warrior Rostam who mortally wounds his "valiant nemesis, Sorhab, in battle, only to discover that Sohrab is his long-lost son.

Then in chapter 7 Amir imagines his triumphant arrival home after winning the kite flying competition. Amir says, “I’d make a grand entrance, a hero, prized trophy in my bloodied hands…Rostam and Sohrab sizing each other up....Vindication. Salvation. Redemption.”

It's interesting to re-read Sohrab's dying words to his gried-stricken father in the story: "If thou art indeed my father, then hast thou stained thy sword in the life-blood of they son. And thou didst it of thine obstinacy. For I sought to turn thee unto love, and I implored of thee thy name, for I thought to behold in thee the tokens recounted of my mother. But I appealed unto thy heart in vain….”

Amir said in chpt. 4 when reading “Rostam and Sorhab” : “...didn’t all fathers in their secret hearts harbor a desire to kill their sons?”

Redemption - I think Amir seeks two kinds of redemption in the story so far: (1) redemption from his father for killing his mother, as Amir perceives it (2) redemption from sacrificing Hassan.

Question: Why did Baba build the orphanage?

Did anyone read "A Separate Peace" by John Knowles? I think I'm seeing some comparisons between it and Kite Runner. A story of two friends, one pure, innocent, athletic, idealistic, the other jealous, vindictive, even cruel. War and its impact.

There's a lot about myths, fables, stories, dreams in Kite Runner. I even thought of Star Wars reading it - the father/son thing. Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker.

"I think Hassan may grapple with a lot of feelings and we just don't see them. At any rate, he has so many endearing traits; he's fun, agile and athletic, loving, intelligent, nice, good. I think one of his roles in the book is to be a contrast to Amir, and Hassan always shows Amir up, innocently. It seems that whatever Amir does, Hassan can do it better, even though he's a lowly servant and uneducated. Obviously, this will lead to trouble." Marni

This reminds me of some of the world's overbred royal families and the decline of the British Empire, and, for that matter, the Nazis and the Jews, Stalin and the kulaks. In spite of the British supposedly being superior to all the races they colonialized, it was quite evident to the British that many of the peoples made better soldiers, braver, stronger, faster, fiercer, and, when educated, they were every bit as intelligent and capable in all things British civil service. Were the British really so superior? A large part of the Nazi equation was simple jealousy: the Jews were the leading intellectuals of German society in medicine and social science research, and many owned more riches than the Aryan Germans. Same in Russian society, later, when Stalin found it necessary to get rid of the Soviet Jews. Whether true or not in any of these situations, this is how the attacks were conducted.

Is Hassan guilty of being superior to his master? This is one of the problems with human beings and races, as such. Humans, in spite of their huge population number, which evolutionarily should speak to great diversity, don't contain a very diverse genome, compared to other animals found in such numbers, or animals closely related. This means that all this time humans have spent on eugenics and master races and blue blood has no meaning. For all the Pashtuns think they are superior to the Hazara, it really has no meaning. Any Hazara may be a genetically more fit individual. And fitness is not just about the organism, but about where they live. Hassan is more fit for the harsh Afghan society, while Amir may have been more fit having been born and raised in America.

To me the story seems more about this, than about Afghan sociopolitical structure.

Hassan's sin is a grave one, being more fit than the master's son for the culture he is born to be a slave in.

Kleo

Interesting how the book seems to be reminding everyone of another book. I mentioned The Prince and the Pauper, but I've forgotten Twain's punchline by now. In that case, didn't the "Pauper" purposely play the role (knowing full well he was the "Prince")? Um. I forget.

Marni says: Baba and Amir - In chapter 4 Amir describes Hassan's favorite story, “Rostam and Sorhab” about the great warrior Rostam who mortally wounds his "valiant nemesis, Sorhab, in battle, only to discover that Sohrab is his long-lost son.

Which reminds me (here we go again) of some of this Luke Skywalker stuff we've seen a lot of. You know, as if foreshadowing a royal father for Hassan or something.

A Separate Peace gives us 'best' friends Gene and Finney, Gene being the cerebral one who is jealous of the athletic ability and the social charisma of Finney. Gene winds up "killing" (so to speak) Finney, by causing him to fall from a tree (what I recall is that G. shook the branch F. was out on in a pique of peevishness, causing F. to fall, break his leg, and ultimately fall victim to a blood clot or something).

So do you suspect Amir of being our Gene here, and Hassan of being the Finney figure? Mayhaps!

Talk of Assef and Nazis puts one of a Raiders of the Lost Ark mind. Nazis in desert climates, Saturday matinees, sheer evil and highly recognizable villains. Yeah. George Lucas again, no? "Luke, I am your father" says Baba Vader. Uh, no. Back to earth, he tells himself. Back to the book.

bmcinnis, I think it's cool that you're a nun. In recent years, I've been reading up on Thos. Merton's work. There's a romantic appeal, of sorts, to the monastic tradition. Heck, people even pay to spend a week in some abbeys (vow of silence and all).

I mentioned it to my wife and she's all for it, in my case (the vow of silence part, I mean).

Just as Amir is aware that he is a disappointment to his father, so to must Baba be aware that he fails Amir? Recently I observed a scene, dentist's waiting room, child comes out beaming for his good behavior and his mother snaps at him for wanting to buy a toothbrush from the dentist. There is no way that child will ever remember that except with pain. And the mother had to be as aware as I that she effectively stomped on her son's happiness. How could Baba, with his political sense and charisma, not see how Amir was pining for his accolades? And, on his day of triumph, Amir is guilty of beginning the process that will remove Hassam, Baba's favorite. His comment, as they are fleeing Kabul, that their seventh servant in six months would be slow to notice their absence reminds the reader that, in those paranoid days, the people who would have been their most trusted companions were absent, Amir's failure to Hassam seeming almost to lead to their running away.

Afghanistan was neutral in both WWI and WWII.

Afghanistan's Jews left in large numbers in various times, usually during times of major civil strife, and in the early 50s when Soviet Jews were fleeing Stalin, heading, like the Soviets, to America, but mostly to Israel. The remainder fled under the Taliban, except, for the last two in the one article Barbara posted.

I am guilty of spelling Asif wrong. I will try to get on track with the spelling in the book.

Afghan Tajik's are no more Zoroastrianism in their practice of Islam than most Middle Easterners. Where they run into ancient practices is culturally, not religiously. Tajiks practice Sunni Islam just like Arabs and Iranians, those of the latter who are Sunni. If you were in an Arab mosque or an Arab home while the Sunni Moslem Arabs were praying, you would not know the difference from Afghan Tajik Sunni Moslems practicing. Yes, like most Farsi-Dialect speaking peoples of Afghanistan, the Hazara being another, Tajiks are not all Sunni. The Hazara are not all Shiia.

Traude, I have your question, and others, on kite-flying in mind. I did spend yesterday evening with Afghans, who, because the Pope had just passed, and I am Catholic, spent the evening reminiscing about the good deeds of Pope John Paul II, a man they admired greatly. One of my Uncles was in a refugee camp in Pakistan when the Pope asked the West to give refuge to Afghans. Immediately the US granted my Uncle's visa. So, last night was not a night to discuss kite flying.

Amir's theft? He stole the only thing that Hassan, or any Hazara, could possess, his good reputation.

Kleo

I meant to say, he stole the only thing that any human could truly possess: their good reputation.

Many Afghans did flee Afghanistan with nothing but their reputation. I have met folks who crossed the mountains into Pakistan barefoot. Afghans have had to flee time and again, as each new regime assaulted some aspect of Afghan culture that would not be allowed. This is the Jewish diaspora, also.

The brideprice being a particular favorite of Marxists and Modernist-reformers, alike, for doing away with. Afghan's love their culture, it is their identity. In America, an Afghan can live work and dress as an American outside the home, then walk into Afghanistan inside their home. Each new regime comes in and says, "You cannot be an Afghan if you do this or that." So Afghans leave, to find a place where they can be Afghans.

The Dari-speaking Jews in the cities were not much different from other folks in Afghanistan who spoke Dari in the cities, whatever their tribe. Dari was the language of business and international affairs, so many folks who lived in urban areas of Afghanistan would speak Dari, in addition to their own tongue. Most of my family who come from Kabul also speak Pashtun. Afghan Jews were generally urban.

I bring up all these details to affirm my decision not to study too much about Afghan culture--it is rather more confusing than enlightening to me.

Kleo

I spelled Hassan's name wrong.

I spelled Babar's name wrong. Ah, well then. No biggy. Sometimes British editions of texts (bought via amazon.uk) have many different spellings. That's the only reason I asked about the "Asif" originally. I'm interested in that kind of thing. As you know, the American Revolution was fought on a lexicographical front as well: color vs. colour, judgment vs. judgement, surprise vs. surprize, et cetera vs. jolly good cetera.

Kleo, I like that line about stealing one's reputation. Isn't there a Biblical story about someone who sells (gives away?) his name? Or maybe "namesake" is the term used. I forget. I just remember it perplexed me as a youth and makes sense to be as an elderberry.

Kevin: Was it someone selling his birthright? something from the bible?

Thank god Daniel Webster came along! Marni

Good to see John Knowles mentioned here.

Who could ever forget The Magus , a work that the author, a perfectionist, saw fit to rewrite in its entirety ?

It has never ceased to amaze me how little attention is paid to correct spelling and punctuation in this country from the primary grades onward. We are also remarkably incurious when it comes to the culture and history of other countries, unless we are directly affected -- and sometimes not even then. Take Afghanistan for instance where our boys have been fighting since 2001!

The web has been universally praised, and for good reason. However, the information provided there is not always accurate. I have come across quite a few erroneous historical dates - not to mention "alternative"(read wrong) spelling. It is, after all, the writer (not the spell checker) who must choose between "then" and "than", "there" and "their", "shown" and "shone", "its" and "it's", etc. etc. etc.

It seems memory is playing tricks on us, Traude! I messed up on the "namesake" thing. It is, as pointed out above, a tale of "birthrights" or inheritance, that the Bible tells. Yes, Esau sells it for a pittance to Jacob, who knows better.

Why I'm confusing "birthrights" with one's good name, I can't say. Ah well. I'm sure if I beat the bulrushes long enough, I can come up with a "name" story in the Bible, too.

Traude, The Magus was written by John Fowles, not John Knowles. Very close on pronunciation, there, and -- nervy of them -- the same first name (or birthright, perhaps).

Who's on first? I'm not sure anymore. Back to our regularly-scheduled discussion, as they say.

Kevin: You are so funny!

Rats. Illinois just lost the tournament. There goes the pool.

Traude: Please don't be bothered by my web spelling, esp. of its and it's. I'm usually a pretty good speller; but I find when I'm whipping along on the PC, for some reason I tend to use the wrong ones. I guess we all have our pet peeves with this spelling and grammar. Sometimes I tell myself that language is always changing. With so many people using PC's for most of their writing now, and using abbreviations so much on the web, who knows what our language will look like in 25 years. Marni

I can't spell, and never will be able too!! Spell checker is my friend, but it doesn't help with names. I can be looking at the name and spell it wrong.

I before e, except after c, or when sounding like "ay," as in "neighbor" and "weigh."

Back in the 1960s the Anglo-French project was 'Concord' on the English side of the Channel and 'Concorde' on the French. As a gesture of solidarity the British government said that, henceforth it would be 'Concorde' on both sides. The spelling with the terminal 'e' has now become so familiar that it is difficult to get anyone in Britain to spell the word the other way. Will this survive the plane's demise?

If we were deaf and had to rely on the closed captioning to get our news, we would be completely frustrated. Most of the time there are awful msspeelings, not to mention all the symbols they throw in... "This is CNM head line news. Ton**(*^(*^s to op store is about a!#l ~~ who feel in awheel."

Baited breath - as in: ‘I am waiting with baited breath for your answer’. The correct spelling is bated breath but it’s so common these days to see it written as baited breath that there’s a chance it will soon become the usual form.

Wake Snakes and come to Taw
B.L.D. GUFFEY will practice Law

In the UK a boat anchors in a harbour, not a harbor, and a joke is an example of humour, not humor, the centre line is not center and the defence system is not defense.

The Ditty Bag (bog or box) was originally called ditto bag because it contained at least two of everything -- two needles, two spools of thread, two buttons. As time passed 'ditto' was dropped and replaced with ditty and remains so today.

Owed to the Spell Checker

Eye halve a spelling checker
It came with my pea sea
It plainly marcs four my revue
Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.

Eye strike a key and type a word
And weight four it two say
Weather eye am wrong oar write
It shows me strait a weigh.

As soon as a mist ache is maid
It nose bee fore two long
And eye can put the error rite
Its rare lea ever wrong.

Eye have run this poem threw it
Eye am shore your pleased two no
Its letter perfect awl the weigh
My checker tolled me sew.

And we haven't even begun to tackle how we speak in various sections of this nation...!

Traude an independent reader - just the plus we need around here - I wondered about that Scotch bit - seems like Baba had his independent view of his religion - this man was not fodder to the likes of the Taliban was he...

Ginny I had to laugh but right on...Afghans exaggerate, to extremes. I am left wondering , since this IS an Afghan protagonist, (and that is of the author's choosing), if we can actually believe what we're seeing from his eyes or how many grains of salt we need to be bringing here.

The pairs - yes, hadn't noticed that before - TWO; duality, diversity, conflict, dependence, balance, dual nature of man, the symbol of sin - the Islamic symbol of two is 'The Spirit'...hmmmm

marni0308 ooohhh the relationship to the Rostam and Sorhab story - fascinating - that is one to hang onto...

Possibilities - what do you all think - or maybe these should be brought up again toward the end of the book when we know what happens next kind of thing -- Redemption - I think Amir seeks two kinds of redemption in the story so far: (1) redemption from his father for killing his mother, as Amir perceives it (2) redemption from sacrificing Hassan.

The orphanage...actually I hadn't thought except he was a rich man and wanted more acceptance in the community so he built something very visible that everyone could give him credit for helping society??? What do you think...?

KleoP your thoughts are right on aren't they - two thoughts come to my mind - one if you are buying something you want the best - you want a slave or a machine or anything to be more than yourself or else why buy it - and in all these nonbalanced situations one side is really buying very cheaply the other.

And with that my second thought which is the old saying something about He who has the gold rules - which is not suggesting the ruling is by merit but only because of ownership and money.

And so as you say, Hassan is more fit for the harsh Afghan society, while Amir may have been more fit having been born and raised in America...Hassan's sin is a grave one, being more fit than the master's son for the culture he is born to be a slave in.

Kevin Freeman reading this early part of the book you have to wonder what all the fuss is about don't you...I know for me it wasn't till I finished the book and let it sit a day that it hit me as having said something -

But this guy is no Faulkner is he, and in fact George Lucas may even have a leg up when you compare their story telling skills. So far the setting is carrying the reason to go forward because Amir is such a mixed bag that after Hassan and his dad leave you want to say, who cares.

Mrs Sherlock I wonder if that is what Baba feels - we do not know since this is written by Amir but it will be interesting to follow the relationship between father and son and see if we can pick out how Baba feels about Amir. Have you figured out why Rahim is in the story - oh he says some nice things to Amir and seems to support who Amir is but could the story survive do you think without Rahim?

KleoP as I understand it the practices and beliefs of Zoroastrianism weaves itself through all the religions of Abraham and so as Muslims would not be able to point to the connection neither would most Christians. As I understand it from what I have read so far, some of the basic beliefs are an outgrowth of Zoroastrianism as are some of the actual scenarios in the Christian Bible simply dressed up versions of stories from this ancient religion practiced in the part of the world where Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan are located today.

Sounds like the passing of the Pope is a personal reason to mourn in your family...he was a Pope that reached out wasn't he.

I do not think the issue of Brideprice has come up in the story so far and to tell the truth I do not even remember if it comes up in later chapters - but it will be interesting to read about - only recently PBS had a Frontline on the practice.

OK and now we have the ahum discussion of spelling and the American use of the English language along with the difference in spelling among those who speak Ameriglish...

look isn't this the loveliest web site to one of the authors from Amir's dead mother's books. Saadi - The Genius of Shiraz who was imprisoned by the Crusaders and had to dig trenches in Tripoli until a Muslim merchant bought and freed him; but then his previous form of slavery was replaced by another, since he had to marry his benefactor's daughter.

<off topic> Oh no, no. Trust me when I say, Hosseini is better than Faulkner. 'Course my Aunt Mae is better than Faulkner. </off topic>

Oh well done, Barbara, on the duality thing: " the Islamic symbol of two is 'The Spirit'," well done.

Marni, as the commercials say, "BRILLIANT!"

Kevin, I never liked Faulkner, but just finished a course on him this spring and there's more to him than I first thought, so I have some appreciation now. I still need a translator, tho.

aahhhhh KEVIN, of course, of course. I READ John Knowles but SAW John Fowles in my mind's eye. Can't possibly explain what possessed me. Thank you for setting me straight.

GINNY, oh yes, the pairing... there is more to come, much more.

It has been our good fortune and rare privilege to have authors present in some of our discsussions to answer intricate questions as only they could. Our gratitude has no bounds.

Yet I confess to having mixed feelings.
For example, how frank can even the most tactful questioner really be knowing the author is right there?

More to the point, if we had Mr. Hosseini right here with us now, would we really tell him how some of us feel about the "bait"; the predicatability; his literary device; the focus on black and white sans gray areas?

I don't know that other than Assef, I see any truly black and white characterizations. Hassan teases Amir as he can, but what can Hassan do? He's the servant. His father will beat him if he does anything outright against Amir. It will sham Ali to have his son act out to Amir. But we catch glimpses of Hassan's desire to get back at Amir, when Hassan smashes the pomegranate in his own face, and other times. Hassan is not only all good. Amir has a tender side that can appreciate poetry. I think Amir's problem is that he can't live up to himself.

But what good, if he can? He has to live in Afghan society, a dangerously poor, tribally fractionated third world country. What good will poetry do him? Afghanistan might as well be on the other side of the world, for all it has in common with Iran in this respect. If his father is shocking the poet out of Amir, so that Amir can survive, then what can Amir do against this? Nothing. That Amir sees what he does as so horrid, that he is tortured by it, is proof of his failure to accept all as it is, is proof of his own duality.

I have known plenty of Afghan men just like Amir's father. In fact, my closest cousin was just like him, unrelenting in his demands for better from his own son.

I don't know that I, an Afghan boy in a stone age culture, with a heart for literature, and a father demanding that I live in my own culture, could have done better than Amir. Desperate times command desperate people to actions they cannot redeem.

Redemption? It is, of course, Amir's father who must seek redemption for blaming a child for the death of his own mother. What kind of parent would do this? Death during childbirth, by the way, has always been rather high in Afghanistan. I don't know if it mostly due to just being a third world country. The infant always suffers the greater loss than the widower father, though. In fact, death is not an uncommon outcome for the child who has lost his mother.

Kleo

Kleo

Ah, yes, Traude, should the author be here would we ask him these questions? This, however, is typical of novels with young protagonists. It is also why I almost always pass on novels with such young protagonists. The age of the star character limits some of the literary devices. How sophisticated can the thinking of a 12-year-old be? As you are withholding judgment to the end, maybe, as Amir grows up, things will change in the novel.

Kleo

Yes, KLEO, I know what you mean.

To get back to the heart of the matter, if and when an author is in our midst, and just in case we happen to have reservations of any kind, COULD we (indeed HOW COULD WE) possibly have the temerity to utter such reservations, no matter how tactfully, when it is exuberant praise that is essentially expected ?

Somewhere (here ?) I read recently that an author was approached about participating in a discussion but declined, saying that his presence might "stifle" people.

A good point, worth considering.

Perhaps I am approaching the issue of inviting the author from a completely different standpoint, but I'm curious WHY would anyone hesitate to pose questions that have arisen here - or others that perhaps have not yet been brought to our attention - if that is indeed what is on the minds of the posters?

Why the sudden sense of hesitancy (certainly not shyness?) or fearfulness that questions could not be posed with the same respect that we expect (and receive) from each other?

As a former university instructor and writer, I've dealt with writers for many years, invited them as guests in my classes, talked with them at writing conferences, and explored their thinking patterns and writing styles. Through these experiences, I've enjoyed learning from writers from many backgrounds and in several countries. So far I've never had a writer explode in my face due to my questions; refuse to answer questions asked in a sincere manner; or refuse to explain (usually in great detail) what prompted a specific character development, style of writing or the purpose in giving voice to specific topics.

I'm usually interested in asking "how much of yourself do you insert into the story or characters?" That gives the writer a broad avenue of response.

In reading Kite Runner, I've been reminded of the similarities of some of the characters with people I've actually known in Afghanistan, Iran and the US. Some were fine people, wonderful in their manner towards me and others; others were ugly, mean, vicious and not the kind of people I'd want in my life. But I understood their backgrounds and cultural contributions towards forming their personalities. I made sure that I interacted with them as little as possible, if at all, after the first meeting.

In my own personal experiences, I've found the Pashtun men to be wonderfully kind and hospitable, but also vicious and violent with tempers that defy explanation. (And I say this as a woman with a VERY healthy Irish temper!) The women have always been friendly to me (and talked about me alot behind my back, mostly about my multicultural background), also showing the wonderful hospitality and extreme courtesies. I just ignore their gossiping.

My experiences with Hazaras has been less extensive and mostly in the service capacity. I do not know any Tajiks well.

Our discussion of Kite Runner has been very healthy and informative. We can all critique without criticizing, ask meaningful questions, and offer insights whether the author is here or not. We may have had a few honest comments from folks who have not enjoyed the book, at least the first part. Maybe here's where we can be careful and tactful so we don't irritate the writer since he would be doing us a great favor to join us.

Marni

The discussions I've skimmed through briefly seem way above my head. At first glance this books seems similar to Daniel Silva's writings.. so I'll carry on and see where I fit in with this (if I do) Colkot

I do think that having the author in the conversation stifles the back and forth. Once the author has made a pronouncement on a subject, that's it! the truth in its entirety! the limits of the writing! the all of the conversation. I don't discuss books, at least fiction, to find accuracy, I can read quite well to myself and read everything the author ever said about it. I want human truths, the things the author may not see him/herself, but distill into the book just by carefully observing human beings. I discuss books with others because I learn from others' responses to the same work. The author wrote it. His response, to me, is more limited, than those who come from the same point I do: the reader, the human being looking for a common mirror in the pool of life.

Pashtuns, Tajiks and Hazara are all culturally Afghans. This book could have been written about a Tajik family in Afghanistan and the servant the youngest wife and her son. There are cultural details that are different, like I was visiting the other day when one of the Afghans from overseas called, a Pashtun. His sister is getting married. She has no right of refusal on the groom. Tajik women do, generally. Pashtunwali doesn't allow the bride to see the groom before the wedding, much less say yes or no. Pashtun men are significantly more tribally paternal than the others, but for Americans and Westerners it's like the difference between a rocket to Mars and one to Pluto.

Kleo

WELCOME colkot Please we need to hear all sides - please do not feel you have to sound like a world traveler or a university professor to share your thoughts - we are seeking everyone's reactions to this story and all reactions are worthy -- some of us may have a different experience and so we just do not make sweeping statements - there is no authority reading and sharing here -- I am so glad you book arrived - I know you will enjoy reading and sharing once you get your feet wet so to speak...till later...

OK as to how we review and discuss this book - this discussion is not an altar or benediction to an author!

Many authors look upon their work as their children, we have had several authors join us here on Seniornet who were sincere in seeing aspects of their book that they had not thought of when they wrote the book but were delighted with the relationship and reaction that part of the book provided to the reader.

This discussion was not planned as an author participating discussion. We have had many a discussion here on SeniorNet with authors and that process was not followed which often takes months if not several weeks of preparation in order to contact and have a correspondence with the author before a heading is even started. Yes, a few times after a discussion starts the contact was successfully made and the author joined but that is rare in comparison to the preparation during pre-discussion and pre-heading.

The author can share their perspective but we are committed to the concept that "Reading is a Creative Act" - in other words once the book is published it is no longer the intellectual property of the author. It becomes a shared property between reader and author. There is NO RIGHT WAY to understand or interpret the story - not even the author is the authority of our relationship with the story. We make it our own so that we can relate to the questions about our own life that the themes of the story open for us.

Now these are the tenets if you would that are the basis for this conversation - we are not a review board for developing critical material but critique is part of the discussion of any book.

The very best books are those that gradually wind themselves into your experience: They reveal an important truth or provide a profound sense of kinship between reader and writer. Searching for, identifying, and discussing these truths deepen the reader’s appreciation of the book.

We do this by

Asking questions -- reading carefully, imagining yourself in the story, analyze style and structure, and search for personal meaning in a work of literature all which enhances the work’s value and the potential for discussion.
Make notes and mark pages as you go -- Reading for a book discussion differs somewhat from reading purely for pleasure. As you read ask questions of yourself and mark down pages you might want to refer back to. Make notes like, "Is this significant?" or "Why does the author include this?" Remember nothing in a story is left in by accident. Everything the author includes has value to the theme if only to move the plot along.
Ask tough questions of yourself and the book -- Obviously, asking questions of yourself as you read means you don’t know the answer yet, and sometimes you never will discover the answers. Don’t be afraid to ask hard questions because often the author is presenting difficult issues for that very purpose. Look for questions that may lead to in-depth conversations that will make the book more meaningful.
Pay attention to the author’s message -- As with any skill, critical reading improves with practice. As almost a repeat -- a good author uses every word in a text deliberately. Try to be aware of what the author is revealing and what the author wants you to learn about life from the author's perspective. Not just life in Afghanistan, but life within wo/mankind. Abuse is abuse, slavery is slavery, joy is joy, competition, wanting love, giving love, loyalty, honorable versus dishonorable behavior are universal motivations.
Analyze themes -- Try to analyze the important themes of a book. Imagine an author mulling over the Beginnings of the story, asking himself, “what if … ” questions. The unfolding plot is only one devise that points to the themes within a story.
We all seem to more easily get to know the characters -- and it is easier for some of us to place ourself at the scene. Think of characters as you do the people around you. Judge them. Think about their faults and their motives. What would it be like to interact with them? Are the tone and style of their dialogue authentic? Read portions aloud to get to know the voices of the characters.
Notice the structure of the book -- Sometimes an author uses the structure of the book to illustrate an important concept or to create a mood. Notice, are chapters prefaced by quotes? If so, how do they apply to the content of the chapters? How many narrators tell the story? Who are they? How does the sequence of events unfold to create the mood of the story? Is it written in flashbacks? Does the order the author chose make sense to you?
Make comparisons to other books and authors: Compare the book to others by the same author or to books by other authors that have a similar theme or style. Often, themes run through an author’s works that are more fully realized by comparison. Comparing one author’s work with another’s can help you solidify your opinions, as well as define for you qualities you may otherwise miss.

These are the components of any discussion and also the components that some of us have at our finger tips because of experience or because of their remembered Lit classes - these components are guidelines to find the themes and as I think Joan shared earlier when she was prompted to ask Who Am I

In just a few short days we have really delved into this story - it is amazing the material we have covered - I am excited every day when I come in to the conversation and read the wonderful posts. As a first published work Khaled Hosseini has offered a story with depth and the location has given all of us an opportunity to learn more abut a culture that is very much in the news today.

Obviously I agree with Kleo, Traude, et al, who say authorial visits might stifle conversation. It would be uneven. The author's posts would carry all the weight while the posters' posts would be reduced to hosannahs (and how exciting would a chorus of Eddie Haskells be?).

Who would dare critique, even in the most constructive and sensitive fashion? Such a person could count on both the author's disdain and that of many posters who would rush to his aid against any perceived temerities.

Anyway, we're not inviting authors as part of the Round the World format, correct? I think Barbara hinted as much, anyway, so that's good.

I'm a little surprised that some of the readers find Amir so unlikable. On the one hand, we complain if the characters are all good or all bad: on the other we are complaining that our protagonist is a mixture. Come on: we can't have it both ways.

I like Amir as a character. If he were a truly bad person, he would not have this deep feeling of shame, remembering every mean thing he ever did. This is part of the growing up process: the meanness, the shame at the meanness, the resolution. I can see it in my grandson, jealous of his brother, wanting to hurt him, feeling bad because he wants to hurt him, loving him, around and around.

This isn't great literature perhaps, but it is good literature. It makes us think and learn.

Joan: "If he were a truly bad person, he would not have this deep feeling of shame, remembering every mean thing he ever did. This is part of the growing up process: the meanness, the shame at the meanness, the resolution. "

Amir is coming of age in an extreme culture. That he cannot rise to the occasion of being good under horrendous circumstances may not be that extreme, taken in the context of the brutal third world culture he must become a man in. That he fails miserably, even the most human attribute, is, as Joan points out, why we are reading about him. I do wait to see what he rises to, that he has sunk so low. But I cannot deny that he is human, that he has qualities too far removed from what I might have done, or what someone I love might have done, faced with the same choices. This is what I mean by humans share the same prejudices, not to throw a stone at some individual and call them a racist, but that humans can understand each others' failures. All humans fail, at some time in their lives. Well, maybe not Mother Theresa.

Kleo

Barbara: What a good discussion leader you are! The "For Your Consideration" and ongoing questions are thought-provoking. I appreciate so much how you read each comment and provide feedback to the group. Your list of ways to search for, identify, and discuss truths in books is helpful. Can you tell us a bit about yourself and how you are confident and skilled enough to lead a discussion like this?

Oh goodness Marni - thank you, I am so glad this is helpful for you. I guess the biggest reason that I like to get into a book is that I am a life long reader - I was hungry to read as a small child - every week I accompanied my mother into the square which was a long walk of a few miles - there was a small library along the side of the park in the middle of the square and while Mama shopped she left me at the library. I still remember the enchantment of that first day - the sun on the wooden desk - the books - the stamp - the cards - Mama signed me up and we chose two books that were carefully put high on a shelf when we returned home --

That very night Mama read me the first book but life was busy and everynight I looked longingly at that second book on the shelf. Mama said I couldn't get it dirty and she just did not have time to read that night till the two weeks were up and we had to return the books. Well I vowed I was going to learn to read so that would never happen again. But I wanted to read the "real" books and the lady said I had to first read all these funny shaped thin books that took up two full shelves.

I was on a mission and was going to hurry - so I would actually skim the books looking for words that I did not know and ask her what the word was - if I could do it fast enough before Mama got back from shopping I could pick out four books. I was doing swimmingly well till the usual Lady was not there one week in mid-winter when I was in the first grade. A younger, pretty lady with long blond hair was there in her place, who turned out to be my nemesis.

I asked for help with two words and not only was I to sound them out but she wanted me to use them in a sentence. The time...I was on a mission and Mama would be back before I could choose my four books - unlike the usual lady who just told me the words, she wanted me to use the words in sentences...! After all, I had to show I read all these strange shaped books before I could read the real books. So from that day forward I never asked for help again and for years - I mean years - into young adulthood, as I read any word I did not know, I would keep reading making a sound in my head for the word till finally the story would make it clear what the word was and what it meant. This was all fine and good till it came to the names of characters. To this day I can remember the sighs and grunts I created for the characters in War and Peace that I read when I was about 15.

And I guess I must give my insatiable curiosity a plug - we never went anywhere that I was not asking what was this and raised my hand in school a lot till the other kids would groan as I needed to know and would ask my teachers, the nuns about all the side bars and details. Later when I was in seventh grade we moved into a house where the sellers left behind in the attic a complete set of Encyclopedias - that was the beginning of my independence from asking everyone why and where and what and who...

I'm of that generation that married young and had my three children by the time I was 26 - went to college when my oldest was in High School. I was also the generation that volunteered - for me it was the Girl Scouts - not just as a leader but as a trainer and a Board member - I was asked to train on a regional and national level and I even had an opportunity to train in Canada the Girl Guide leaders. My special area of interest was group development and part of that was helping folks identify their values and appreciate the different values we hold when we observe the same scenario.

I was never one for detail but in 1980 I started my career as a Real Estate agent, became a Broker in 1984 - detail became my middle name. I briefly had my own company but hated it. I prefer working directly with those who are buying or selling - love to see their faces when they finally understand the process. Their whole face lights up - basically I think I am a teacher rather than a salesperson.

Nearly 20 years ago I went through a dark period in my life that coming out on the other end took about 10 years with 7 years of lots of therapy - the result is my life is an adventure that I never imagined and I realize the best laid plans of mice and men are not something either mice or men control.

Where I must work, I love what I do, so that is a blessing - I also realized I was just never going to make a fortune no matter how much the carrot is dangled and so why not enjoy what I do and what I valued when I was younger along the way.

I have had some incredible experiences volunteering again within the past three years. By simply asking about a PBS program at my local station, the doors flung opened so that now after training I moderate with the Texas National Issues Forum that is funded by the Kettering Foundation as well, because of a request for moderators, I continued my involvement with the Lower Colorado River Partnership. We are collecting all the information from all the stakeholders as well as the gathering as much information as we can about the history, birds, animals, plants, water quality etc. between Austin and Bastrop.

I have three grown children and 5 grandboys - my daughter lives just over the border from South Carolina where Gary is co-owner of Computer Direct Outlet in Greenville SC. - they live in the mountains of North Carolina. My son is area manager for the panhandle and northeast New Mexico with Fed Ex and lives with his High School sweetheart and their 3 boys in Lubbock and my oldest never married and lives outside Taos on the side of a mountain.

We, Ginny and I, were only recently trying to remember when I became a part of Seniornet Books & Lit - I think it was '98 but it could have been '97 - my most favorite book to discuss was when the author, Jeff Shapiro joined us as we read his first novel "Renato's Luck" I loved that book and that discussion. I only heard from Jeff last month and have his new novel that he would be delighted to join us again when we schedule the discussion. He lives in Tuscany, married to a beautiful Tuscan women, although he is from the Boston area.

OK I cannot think what else to share but to say what I do here is because like all of us - we have lived for awhile and had varied experiences that allow us to do more than we could if we were still only 29 or even 39 years old.

Added is my experiences traveling where again I research like crazy before I leave the house. I've been fortunate to have traveled many times in Mexico, Canada, Europe and Britain - Hiked in Austria, Switzerland, Germany, France and Mexico. Went to cooking school which included three weeks in France. Was an avid Needlework stitcher again, "the teacher" of needlework and studied in both England and France. My last regional training in Needlework of 17th century English Samplers that I researched in Cambridge, Leeds, Norwalk, London and Cardiff Wales, was the year I started Real Estate. Painted in oils and watercolors when I was in my 40s and sold a few paintings - goodness lets see shall I include that I won swimming medals when I was in High School. hahaha this is getting silly isn't it hahaha... enough....

Barbara, so much to think about. We are fortunate to have you. May I print out your guide to analysis? I took the minimum English classes required for graduation, and never got into this kind of analysis - more interested in statistics, computer programming, etc., so this is like a graduate class for me, and boy, do I need it.

Well done, BARBARA! With such a stellar DL, we are assured that our discussion will bring forth many insights to share with each other and to pique the interest of others who might like to join us.

Barbara #378 - Thank you so much for all that info on how a book discussion is run. I am a complete novice to any discussion so this is an eye opener. Hopefully, I will now read a book seeing things that I didn't before. I'm going to print this out so that I can have it for future reference.

Barbara - Wow! Some life you have lead. All that energy! Thank you for sharing all of that with us.

This is a fabulous discussion.

Karmie

Thanks so very much, Barbara, for both your posts about your background and the succinct outline of how
to make a book group work!
I'm so glad to see your emphasis on the value of each person's opinion of a book, since it's apparent that some readers may be reluctant to express their own, personal opinions. That's never been my problem.

However, since I'm on a learning curve about Afghanistan, I've hesitated to put up links, which I have often done in other discussions, and which I continue to do in Latin class. I hope you, Traude, Persian, Kleo and the others who have posted them will continue to put up all the links you find. They have been truly enlightening.

But as I read this book, the universal values remain the most appealing to me. I think that kite running, the activity, is a symbol of life in a harsh country, where your life may be cut off without warning, just like a kite string.

"I think that kite running, the activity, is a symbol of life in a harsh country, where your life may be cut off without warning, just like a kite string".

Excellent point, Mippy. I hadn't thought of that, but it's very evocative.

Please do come in with your comments. I have enjoyed your comments so much in all the discussions we have had together. (We seem to be tracking each other, and always be in the same discussions. Great minds think alike LOL)

Barbara: I'm in awe of all the things you have done. It is clear that even as a child, you weren't going to let anyone stop you from learning and growing.

I realize how lucky I was that my mother had been a children's librarian before we were born. She made sure I got my library card when I was four, and got to the library every week. There were "Nazi librarians there too, but my parents wouldn't put up with any of that. I still remember mom bawling out a librarian who tried to restrict what I read.

My one bad library experience came as a small child, when I was so absorbed in what I was reading, that I wet my pants. I went to the other side of the room, and when my mother asked me if I knew anything about that puddle on the floor over there, said I had no idea. She told me she didn't mind that I had wet my pants, but she was very disappointed that I lied. I never forgot that.

In my house, we read constantly: in the bathroom, going upstairs, at meals (when mom would call "dinner", everyone would run for a book). I felt it was extremely unfair that mom forbade me from reading in the bathtub after I'd dunked a couple of books.

People say they have no time to read. That's not true. They are either making other choices with their time (which is fine, but why not admit it) or they aren't comfortable enough with reading to know how to fit it into small spaces. Everyone goes to the bathroom, waits in line at the store or in the doctors office, lies a few minutes before going to sleep, commutes (books on tape if driving). All of these are chances to read.

OK FOLKS - ON WITH THE SHOW - thanks for your kind words and I am so glad the aid to a discussing a book is helpful - I worry that I answer a simple question with the reprint of the Constitution but it seems to have been an aid to you...whew...I am breathing again.

I was struck again at the timing of these first chapters in Afghan history - like watching a football game Amir attends a Buzkashi and has Henry Kissinger pointed out to him. Definitely a 1970s time frame wouldn't y'all agree.

I just love the photos in this site showing the Buzkashi being played and the horror it must be if a chapandaz did fall - easy to see he would be trampled to death Buzkashi played on male stud horses

A lot of male testosterone in this section of the book - reminds me of that gang life we read about in the big cities and even now some smaller cities in America or the Machismo of the Spanish influence in the Latin countries to the south of us that is evident in many of the newer Mexican immigrants. Poets like Amir do not have much air to breath in these environments although now that rap is bringing big money to the gang kids their poetic sensibilities have a window for expression.

And this for historical content is the data -- the National Securities Archive including Henry Kissinger, Memorandum for the President, "Private Conversations with the King and Prime Minister of Afghanistan."

And this site is photo after photo that includes the last king - Mohammad Zahir Shah arriving home January 2001

Have y'all read that bit on BBC news where the Taliban are getting tired and a few - a very few - are turning themselves in since there has been an amnesty program set up - but most are concerned about reprisals from Al-Qadea and so they stay in the mountains.

Joan you uploaded your post and I just now read it - you too an early and adsorbed reader - ah yes, how we handle embarrassing experiences when we are young -

Interesting though, and I wonder if it was age or a different character trait - you did not blame it on someone else to avoid your own feelings of embarrassment or guilt which is essentially in spades what Amir did when he felt not just guilt but shame for not attempting to stop what happened in that Alley.

I am not sure that feeling guilt or shame goes hand and glove with a poetic nature - in fact I wonder about that link - we all know how today certain children are bullied in school - and yes, those who are bullied are often the brighter nerdy kids. This makes it hard especially in the minority community if any child want to excel in their school work - but does that automatically mean they are shamed when they cannot take on the bully?

I guess it would be helpful for us to know the difference between Shame and guilt - back in a minute with a good definition of the difference...

Ok this is a pretty good site Shame versus Guilt -- Guilt is about what we do...Shame is about who we are...

Barbara: Thank you so much for sharing. Wow.

Joan: What a library story!

I'd like to pass this on regarding how everyone can find time to read. My dad was always a voracious reader. Now, he is blind. He ran out of time to "read." It just about did him in that he couldn't read anymore. We found out about a special Connecticut library program for the blind, through the New Haven Library. They collect information about a blind person - what that person's interests are. For example, my dad likes to read about the founding fathers, the American Revolution, and World War II; he likes detective stories; and he enjoys biographies of American politicians. Libraries now are collecting many books on special audio cassettes for the blind. They mail enrolled blind members a special audio cassette player with large buttons they can use by feel. Every week, a librarian looks for audio books of his interest that my dad has not yet read. (They keep a running list of what he has already read.) They mail him two or three books weekly. They send him some slightly outside of his interest, too, to see if he enjoys them. He listens to his books and then pops the cassettes into his mailbox where they are picked up by the mailman and mailed back to the library, free of postage. The whole program is free for my dad. It has saved his life.

Wow, Marni, that is great. What a fabulous service.

Kathy

However, to date, apart from the historic content and background, this book is predictable right from the beginning...I have not moved on so far but I'm quite sure I'm correct about my preliminary findings. It's familiar territory/genre. I have not managed to go to that part of the world, but my late husband had family some of whom came from there; who were scattered and who had different religions. W e run the gamut from agnostic - christian- various denominations- catholic,orthodox- protestant some of my relatives come come from the place where they shoot one another...there are probably a few jewish relatives on my mother's side..and the Tartar part.. they were moslems. We had always plenty to talk about. As to author participation, the only one I've ever met was Sarah Dunant, the author of The Birth of Venus who happened to attend the same school and I did in London England. All authors write from their own point of view don't they? Colkot

Whoops Colkot you posted while I was writing - and you see the predictable as others have also pointed out - let's see if the story stays in the predictable tracks we imagine...right!!

Goodness I missed you also Kathy Welcome hope you join the conversations.

Marni thanks for sharing that story of your father's library experience - what a wonderful program that we would never have known about had you not shared -

Mippy I missed this and it was grand - "kite running, the activity, is a symbol of life in a harsh country, where your life may be cut off without warning, just like a kite string."

What a great symbol for all of us - if we put our kite out there, as we do just by virtue of being alive, our kite string can be broken at any time.

Have y'all looked at the art work on the cover - the kite in relationship to the town that I assume is Kabul - so many thoughts come to mind - a town raising its kite of hope or the kite of freedom flying overhead that takes work to keep it flying high - a kite like an angel hovering nearby - a kite that is both reaching for the sky and yet anchored by the string in the hands of who flies the kite.

How do you see the kite...?

Found this photo of a Kochi - a nomad - walking with his camel loaded - read on one site the cost of a good camel is about $2,000 American - Kochi walking with Camel

Interesting - I had forgotten till now - sounds so awful now and yet, then it was the way - as a child I remember if someone came into the area we lived, we kids would throw stones at the person who at times was an just an old guy looking for a handout - this was during the Depression era which was not a word or concept we knew about but we were as protective of our area of the world as if we were a bunch of hired guards. And so Amir throwing stones at the Kochi rang a memory bell...

Barbara --

The Kochi in Afghanistan may or may not be nomads, however, Kochi in Afghanistan are Roma or Gypsies, as some call them. Afghanistan did have a Roma population. The speak Romany, and Indo-Aryan language related to Urdu, and Sanskrit, ultimately--it is thought to have originated in North Pakistan, and area notorious for its Taliban and al Qaeda training grounds. It is not in the same group as the Iranian languages of Afghanistan such as Pashto and Dari. I can't imagine how Roma fared under the Taliban, the Soviets, etc.

Colkot--

This book is an easy coming of age story with a very harsh edge related to its setting. I agree with you. The author declines to go into some of the cultural and tribal detail that would take this out of the ordinary for its genre, away from what is predictable. I think, though, that Afghanistan is an unfamiliar enough country to so many, that this may be okay. It might be unbelievable if set in the totality of its harshness. I think many Americans would dismiss it outright.

Mippy--

I wish you would post the links you come across with a brief description of what benefits you from them. I like a variety of links, some difficult and full, some light and easy to get an answer from. If you find it useful, chances are someone else will.

Marni--

The Library for the Blind has been in existence for many years, with their special tape recorders and books. They are not the regular books-on-tape. They are much clearer, no volume irregularities, the tape recorders are 4 tracks, I believe. My Aunt has been using them for as long as I can remember. If you are a college student and require a textbook on tape, the Library for the Blind will prepare one for you. It is a great service for people to know about.

Kleo

I don't know what chapter begins Amir's and his father's journey in America. However, if anyone has any questions about the details of life in this section, please ask. This is the Afghan America I came of age in and have lived in for much of my life. I have never read a book about a culture I am so intimate with before.

One difficulty, though, is that one of these stories is either taken from or coincidently the tragedy of a family member of mine. This would be too hard to discuss.

It was very fun to know all the details of everything, what the author chose to omit to make his story, what he finagled a bit to make it a better fiction. I think this story is more about Afghan America than about the sociopolitical structure of Afghanistan, or about the coming of age of Amir. This effect, that the story is the backdrop to the setting, is probably from my intimacy with the setting. I think it is wonderful that Hosseini chose to share his life in fiction with the English-speaking world.

Kleo

Barbara: I didn't realize till after I posted it the parallel between my library story and Amir, but that must have been in my mind. The piece on guilt and shame that you posted is very interesting and very much to the point. It is just this threat to who he is that Amir is talking about, and prevents him from acting constructively.

This difference between guilt as what you do and shame as who you are may go back to something written by Max Weber. He talks about the fact that people are often willing to die rather than lose the sense of who they are since, without that sense, life becomes meaningless.

Note: I'm interested that some of you find the plot so predictable. I was certainly not able to predict it as I read.

Wonderful story about books for the blind! And heartening. I always wondered what i would do if I couldn't read.

Joan's most recent comment from Max Weber, "[talking] about the fact that people are often willing to die rather than lose the sense of who they are since, without that sense, life becomes meaningless, remind me of something that had been gnawing at me that I just formulated with her post and one I just made in Read Around the World.

I think that I was early distracted by the different ethnicities in this book, Amir the Pashtun, and Hassan the Hazara, and missed a greater truth, that Amir's shame does not have to do with what Hassan is, but Amir's fear that he might lose the sense of who Amir is by how he acted towards Hassan. Amir's fear is contrasted with the strength in Hassan's knowledge of who Hassan is. This is what Amir sees in Hassan, that Hassan has no shame for being a Hazara. How can this be, when Amir has acted in a way that cuts who Amir is? How can a 'lesser man' be a greater man/boy than Amir?

The author purposefully misleads us, or maybe the author is misled, also. Or maybe only the reader, at first. I will know more at the end. I don't know, now. I know that I got caught up in the what-is-a-Pashtun versus what-is-a-Hazara. There was a lot of time devoted to this in here, also. In spite of Traude's original proclamation that this is a human story, not an Afghan story--which I don't think can be obvious from the beginning. All stories are human, though.

There is something else to this story, that I don't think is so obvious, as it too, fell to the Pashtun-Hazara dichotomy. That is that if Amir does not belong to his tribe, he is nobody. But what Amir does not know at first, what he doubts all along, his desire to prove himself to his baba, is that he does not have to do anything to belong to his tribe. He is born into it. He can only remove himself from the tribe, he cannot put himself in it. I have to tell a tribal story sometime, when my writing is a bit clearer. One can earn the respect of the tribe, without earning a place in the tribe. One can earn a place in the tribe, without earning the respect of the tribe, also. But once you are a member, only you can remove yourself.

I'm not certain that Western society has anything that resembles this level of belonging, that the tribe represents in Afghan society. I tend to think of it more as a clan than as a tribe, though, when thinking of my own family.

This is not very straight-forward, I realize. I want to get these thoughts out, though, while we are still in the first part. I will put them clearer, later.

Kleo

ooooohhhhh "Amir's shame does not have to do with what Hassan is, but Amir's fear that he might lose the sense of who Amir is by how he acted towards Hassan. Amir's fear is contrasted with the strength in Hassan's knowledge of who Hassan is. This is what Amir sees in Hassan, that Hassan has no shame for being a Hazara."

That is a good one Kleo - Hassan knows who he is but, Amir...some of his shame seems to be because he is not accepted by his father...his father wants a different sort of son who has different interests.

Amir feels shame - yes, because of how he looks upon himself - and so is it only Amir who can heal himself do you think or is it all laid on his father's lap that he needs to feel and show acceptance of Amir and also allow Amir to understand the death of his mother was not his fault.

Joan your library story opened up a flood gate it appears as we now can examine the story from the guilt/shame view.

Although Kleo don't you think something has to be said for the difference all folks have about their acceptance and views of each other when there is servatude...and in this case the kind of paycheck Hassan received [generous birthday gifts and high dollar surgery] was no different than most Plantation House slaves received. In fact the time after the Civil War many a slave stayed on the plantation receiving health benefits and other tokens as their only pay check.

I think we cannot dismiss it completely but it yes, it is fading in its importance to understanding Amir isn't it.

KLEO - I'd like to comment on your earlier post, which includes "I'm not certain that Western society has anything that resembles this level of belonging, that the tribe represents in Afghan society. I tend to think of it more as a clan than as a tribe, though, when thinking of my own family."

I tend to think of the Native American culture in comparison with what we have read about the Afghans. In the context of clan/tribe, that seems to be the closest in the West to what we have read about Afghanistan.

In my own personal experience, whenever I have traveled in Iran (especially in the rural areas), there is definitely the acknowledgement that I am an American, but that is greatly overshadowed by the fact that I "belong." I am the daughter of ______, and the granddaughter of _________ and that relationship is well remembered. Whenever I traveled in the Western Azeri region, almost invariably the women told me "you look just like_______."

I've even been stopped on the campus of my former home university in the US by an elderly visiting Iranian couple, who called out "Khanum, are you related to the ________ family? You look just like their women." I entered an elevator once in Washington, DC and the man directly in front of me gasped, his eyes widened, and he whispered in Farsi, "Khanum, I know your family!"

Years ago, while visiting Iran, I was riding in the mountains. One of the elderly servants smiled when I returned my horse and with his head lowered (as a sign of respect) he whispered, "we know you are ________'s daughter. You ride just like he did! We welcome you."

The guilt/shame thing is intriguing.

I think Amir felt GUILT for his mother's death (he feels he committed the act, birth, that killed her.)

I think Amir feels SHAME for being a coward (he feels it is his nature) resulting in Hassan's rape. Also, he felt he was a coward because he couldn't face Hassan after the rape and because he was unable to tell his father what had happened to Hassan.

I think Amir feels GUILT and SHAME for setting Hassan up as a thief - Amir committed the act of putting money/gifts under Hassan's mattress and lied to his father about it; then he felt again he was a coward for what he had done.

There's got to be a lot of ANGER in all of this, I would think.

What a mess the boy is! I guess that's why he writes - to express some of his feelings in his own sensitive way with the talents he has.

This is sort of a continuation.

I think Amir also feels guilt because he often rejects Hassan as a friend, knowing deep down that they really are best friends; but, he can't get over the Hazzara thing, that Hassan was born to be a servant and treated as such. He has such mixed feelings over this. It seems he even feels he is like Assef towards Hassan.

I'm glad Barbara brought up the American slavery issue because I think there were the same guilt and shame issues here. George Washington is a good example. He had a manservant (Christopher Shields??) who was his slave but who really was his close personal friend. They were together for years in war and in peace. Washington was, especially later in life, riddled with guilt over the slavery question, and he wanted to free his slaves. His wife did not. Washington never did free his slaves while alive, but wrote in his will that his slaves should be freed and provided for upon Martha's death.

Many Americans always thought slavery was a heinous institution and fought to rid the country of it. Others firmly believed that blacks and native Americans were inferior, born to be slaves, and were to be treated as such. Many, like Amir and like Washington, had mixed feelings. It tore our country apart from the very beginnings of our tobacco plantation system (earlier?)

The slavery issue is an interesting extrapolation. I think it is important to recall that slavery of Africans by Arabs had been going on for centuries. It was only the American need for cheap labor in the triangle that became our shame. Greed by the New England ship owners, greed by the Arab slave traders, greed by the rum producers. The Hazara, while doubtless slaves in one sense, were not expoilted to the extent that Africans were.

I just checked. Washington's long-serving manservant, or valet, was William (Billy) Lee, whose son was Christopher Sheels. Interesting portrayal of their relationship in Valley Forge, by McKinley Cantor.

Mahlia it must be a warm feeling to know you belong to an extended family with a similar culture - that is something most families no longer experience once they emigrate to the US - it must be the pull that keeps so many traveling back to their homeland especially the Irish and the Mexican families who for several generations after they have settled here continue to visit and are embraced by distant family. This sounds like your experience and how special that must feel. To know where part of your family originated.

Merni you picked up on those points of Guilt and Shame and your remark was so there as to the mess this young boy is in...certainly gives us a different view of his actions now that we can see he is not malicious but filled with not just Guilt which can be healthy but Shame...that is the biggie isn't it.

Mrs Sherlock the issue of slavery makes us all uncomfortable doesn't it - but it appears from watching a PBS special recently the blacks in the very early history of the US were treat no different than indentured servants till a point in history were they were exploited - so that the cruel separation of families, working conditions, treatment by some overseers and slave holders started in the US about 200 years before the Civil War.

It appears that the Hazara had very difficult conditions as well - this link The Hazara Uprising explains that following the uprising "...exorbitant taxes, and general oppression were once again the rule in Hazaristan. Added to this, the area became a center for the slave trade, and for the first time, the government introduced special taxes for slave trading. Hazara slaves were being offered so cheaply, that a slave could bought for 10 seers of wheat or barley Furthermore, the inability to pay exorbitant government fines and taxes soon forced many Hazaras to sell their own wives and children as slaves.

In this link there is correspondence during the end of the nineteenth century [1897] between governor-general in Baluchistan, To-The Secretary to the Government of India, Foreign Department talking about Hazara slaves.

And in this is quoted from this site Hazara Website designed by the University in Kabul Until 1919, some Hazaras were still kept as slaves by the Pashtuns; although Shah Amanullah banned slavery in Afghanistan during his reign, the tradition carried on unofficially for many more years. Nor did the power of propaganda against, and the victimization of the Hazaras remain restricted to the border of Afghanistan; famous scholars are also known to have been influenced.

One of the most internationally respected and famous scholars, a founder of the Islamic Renaissance in Afghanistan, Sayyed Jamaluddin Afghani (1901), referred to the Shi’as Hazaras as ghali. Many years later Temirkhanov was to repeat the mistake.

It appears where the Hazara were not picking cotton or breaking cane or even stripping moss, they were sold like cargo and families were sold separate from each other. Some of the web sites explain that many of the women were sold as sex slaves but regardless their use, slavery was their place in society.

Since this book seems to be talking about the period of history in the 1970s Hassan and Ali would not be slaves to be sold by Baba but he sure didn't pay them much in the way of wages, Hassan knows his place so well he even addresses Assef as Agha taking a subservient position in his effort to appeal to Assef's better nature. The various descriptions in the book reminds me of how we as a nation treated Black folks before the Civil Rights movement changed our ways.

It seems to me by understanding that relationship makes it even more poignant as to the guilt and shame Asim feels about what he didn't do to help Hassan and how he feels about himself as a person without courage and a further disgrace to his father, the man who fights bears.

Now rather than Hassan being the Christ you can almost see Asim pulled in all directions like someone on the center of a cross - or maybe being pulled apart by four horsemen -

There is his father who represents brute strength and courage - his own sensibilities are labeled wanting by his father -

His guilt over what he sees as his birth causing the death of his mother -

His confusion over his relationship to Hassan who is his servant and yet his companion who had become a friend or at lest someone he could depend upon.

Over all this sweeps this shame that he is not worthy and has no value in his own eyes, much less the eyes of his father. He would prefer to be punished by Hassan, who he not only failed but who is in a lower place in society, just to make him feel better.

Hmmm as if Hassan punishing him would raise Hassan to a place equal to himself.

I’ve been reading some of the wonderful links that have been provided in this discussion. The following struck me today because of recent comments:

“For, while in purely religious terms, Sunni and Shi’as have no basic differences, this has not been borne out in reality, where the existence of the two sects has led to bloody wars, the emergence of new political boundaries, and religiously determined social strata. Over the past hundred-odd years in Afghanistan, the Hazaras have been victimized socially and deprived of their natural and human rights because they are Shi’as.” (www.geocities.com/bamiannet/bamiany-bastan01.htm)

This seems to be the way of the world. It sounds exactly like Catholicism vs Protestantism after the Reformation in Europe and in the Americas and elsewhere. Although there were not really so very many differences between the different forms of Christianity, people battled for many hundreds of years defending their faith or imposing their faith on others through political influence, propaganda, persuasion, murder, torture, imprisonment, enslavement, etc.

I was astounded to find out recently that apparently hundreds of thousands of white Christians were enslaved by other Christians after the Reformation. For example, French Huegenots (Protestant) not only were massacred by Catholics (such as during the St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre in Paris in 1572), but many thousands of them were enslaved and sent for life to man the oars of French galley ships in the Mediterranean. Even the pope had galley ships that were manned by “heretic” white slaves.

One aspect of this story we haven't discussed yet: the scene where Amir throws pomegranates at Hassan. He is trying to provoke Hassan to fight back, and perhaps provide atonement for Amir by hitting him. Hassan refuses to do so, instead hitting himself and smearing his own face. It is then that Amir decides he can't live with Hassan.

This scene was an important one for one of my friends. For her, the idea of atonement is very important. She says that Amir wanted Hassan to offer Amir the chance to atone: to be punished. By "turning the other cheek", Hassan denies Amir the punishment that he wants. My friend said this made her doubt the wisdom of the Christian precept of turn the other cheek. It is not always kind; it can be cruel.

What do you all think?

Hi, Joan. I did mention the pomegranate scene in an earlier post.

I don't quite understand this: "She says that Amir wanted Hassan to offer Amir the chance to atone: to be punished. By "turning the other cheek", Hassan denies Amir the punishment that he wants. My friend said this made her doubt the wisdom of the Christian precept of turn the other cheek. It is not always kind; it can be cruel." JoanK

How does it help Amir if Hassan takes responsibility for Amir's atonement by providing Amir with an opportunity? Only Amir can atone for what Amir does. If it is Hassan's responsibility to provide Amir with the opportunity, Amir still has not taken charge of his own destiny, what his father accuses Amir of, what his father worries over Amir, even as an adult for. Hassan denies Amir nothing, he shows Amir the absurdity of demanding that Hassan provide the opportunity for atonement. Amir cannot redeem himself without seeing how base Amir is. It has nothing to do with Hassan. It is Amir who must direct the atonement.

It is not kind to falsely absolve people of responsibility for their own actions. If Hassan had given Amir this false opportunity it would have increased Amir's shame--or more correctly, if Amir had taken it as an opportunity to accept punishment from Hassan. As Hassan has no shame, he cannot share this with Amir. Amir will never fully come to terms with what he has done with the help of anyone else, for it is Amir who is at fault. To be truly sorry for what one has done, one has to own the fault in its entirety--at least one's own fault. No one else bears responsibility for making Amir see his fault, or for offering Amir the chance at redemption.

Hassan also cannot rightly punish Amir for what he has done. Amir's sin is far graver to Amir than what Hassan has suffered. Hassan has no sin, and Amir's offense is really against Amir--again, no matter how much Hassan has suffered. This, again, is like the slaves and their masters. The master raped the slave, and had a child with the slave. This child was treated, mostly, by the master as a slave. No matter how much the slave has suffered, the master has damned his eternal soul. Pain and suffering on earth weighed against eternal damnation?

This is tied in with Amir's guilt about his mother's death in that Amir is willing to own the guilt which is not his, while denying the shame which he has brought upon himself.

Am I reading your post correctly?

Kleo

I've been thinking about that scene ever since I saw it, Joan. All that keeps coming to mind is "if anyone compel you to walk a mile with him, walk with him twain."

I am not sure what Hassan meant by that action. I am not sure what it symbolizes. After being hit a lot of times with the pomegranate and refusing to hit back, he walks toward Amir and crushes it in his own hand and hits himself with it on the head, lots of metaphors of blood, and says "There. Do you feel better?"

It would seem that Hassan senses as you say that Amir is trying to get HIM to punish Amir so he can expiate the guilt he feels, (boy this is a lot of twisted logic!) but it fails. So then he….rather than hit Amir, hits himself, I am not quite understanding why.

I will say something else tho. If the father so loved Hassan and would even give him an operation, why in all those years did he not teach him to read? It's obvious how much Hassan loved books, stories and reading, in fact in the Pomegranate Episode, he was invited to hear another story Amir had written, there's some kind of irony there also?

I'm not sure what happened in this scene. Hassan was surprised, aged in a moment and felt betrayed . I don't know. They say there is no greater burden than the expectations that others put on you, maybe Hassan is not showing saintly behavior at all here. On the other hand what would a saint HAVE done?

I am discussing this post and the idea of Christian atonement with my Mom while posting this. She wonders, having read and enjoyed Kite Runner, why we are reading this book and having this discussion. She suggests we pick up Crime and Punishment. Lol

Kleo

Kleo, we were posting together, you asked, How does it help Amir if Hassan takes responsibility for Amir's atonement by providing Amir with an opportunity?

Can you have atonement without forgiveness? Nobody but Hassan can forgive Amir, right? And without Hassan's participation Amir is in limbo with his own guilt, he's gone unpunished and unforgiven and has to roil in it. He's a child and and too childish or something to ASK forgiveness, so he has to demand to be punished and is stuck when Hassan won't, and in fact makes his "crime," if you will, a lot worse than it was, compounding on compounding till it really IS bad.

So another good question actually might be how does it harm Amir if Hassan refuses to participate in Amir's penance?

Hmmm I wonder if y'all are talking apples and oranges --

In this site it says, the Muslim concept of forgiveness is unlike that of biblical Christianity.

In biblicalChristianity, forgiveness is based upon the death of Christ on the cross as a past action.Christ died for our sins so that once a person receives Christ as his or her Savior, all of his sins are forgiven and each one is guaranteed a place in heaven (John 5:24; 6:47; 1 Peter1:3-5; 1 John 5:13).

But in Islam, because there is no substitutionary atonement for forgiveness of sins, forgiveness is predicated upon both personal merit and Allah’s choice of mercy. Unfortunately, no one ever knows if one’s personal works are sufficient to forgive one’s sins or if Allah will be merciful to him for Allah is an arbitrary deity, and one has no ultimate guarantee of his favor.

This statements in the Koran indicate the conditional nature of Islamic forgiveness:... "and who so ever of you turns from his religion, and dies disbelieving their works have failed in this world and the next; those are the inhabitants of the Fire; therein they shall dwell forever. God has pardoned what is past; but whoever off ends again, God will take vengeance on him; God is All-mighty, Vengeful."

But this too is contrary to what the Bible teaches that full salvation comes by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ who died for our sins (Ephesians 2:8,9; 1 John 2:2).

The Bible emphasizes that salvation does not come by good works or anything else we can do to please God on our own efforts: "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law" (Romans 3:28). "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast"(Ephesians 2:8,9).

The entire article in on this PDF site What Does Islam Teach About Salvation?

In an earlier post someone asked about why Baba built the orphanage - The idea of good works and never knowing if the good works is enough from the above link could explain the building of the orphanage - He put all his creative ability into that project and all his influence in town with workmen to get them to help - all that and still not sure if it is enough to satisfy Allah - certainly is a different look at the way we believe what atonement means.

A victim may choose to forgive or not. It has no part in the act of redemption that the guilty must play. A rapist is not harmed by a rape victim refusing to participate in the criminal's penance. The rapist is the criminal. A criminal has no right to make a demand of forgiveness from the victim. In fact, this is insincere penance.

God forgives mortal sins, if this is what you are discussing, Ginny. Again, Hassan has no part in forgiving Amir's sin. Amir can attempt to compensate Hassan for the wrong Amir has done.

On the other hand, Amir is 12. Had he interfered with the rape, both boys would have been beaten. I think Amir is too young to have committed a mortal sin. Twelve is not a man.

Still, it strikes me as outrageous to put any burden on Hassan for forgiving Amir. I still contend that Hassan has done nothing that gives him an obligation to Amir. Rape victims don't become responsible for the souls of their rapists, or of those who allowed them to be raped.

Isn't Ankerberg defining Islam kinda like an anti-Christian Muslim cleric defining Christianity? Is Ankerberg really the word on anything? Much less Islam?

Kleo

Baba's building the orphanage is actually a bit un-Islamic, because he is supposed to donate to charity without credit for it. The public spectacle of the dedication shows that he has not done this.

Kleo

Kleo how would you define Baba - not only as you say was he panegyrical about building and completing the orphanage, he also drank scotch - yet he was a man of legend, wrestling bears, making friends and was a quiet help to others who showed him their approbation. What kind of man is he - a good man - simply a blowheart - a man who gets things done - is he arrogant - he has a strong man as a friend in Rahim and the devotion of Ali - but he seems to expect a certain behavior from Amir - how do you see this man?

In literature there are often pairs and triads - I wonder if Rahim, Ali and Baba are three sides of Asim's authority figure or three sides of God? Do they together or separately characterize Mohammed by any chance?

Oh just realized you are not Afghanistan are you - I remember now you saying your family was Russian American from Siberia and Mongolia. And so you are not a Muslim rather it is other family members who are Muslims - are you familiar enough with the character of Mohammed to know if these three men or any one of them are metaphors for Mohammed?

BARBARA - re your comments:"What kind of man is he (Baba) - a good man - simply a blowheart - a man who gets things done - is he arrogant - he has a strong man as a friend in Rahim and the devotion of Ali - but he seems to expect a certain behavior from Amir.

To me, BABA is a combination of all these components. He's obviously disappointed in Amir, often commenting on aspects that hurt Amir's feelings. Indeed he is a giving man - just NOT emotionally to Amir - which we see in his public deeds. Within Islam, the building of an orphanage (or any other institution which offers assistance to those unable to care for themselves) is not uncommon, but doing it so publicly certainly is. Muslims are encouraged to give as much (and more) as possible to their communities throughout the year, but not to "blow their own horns" as they do so.

The close relations between Baba and Rahim are NOT unusual in the Afghan culture (or in other male-dominant societies), but Baba's aversion to Amir is unusual. As I read the book, I sometimes wondered if Amir was really Baba's son. Or perhaps Baba just simply does not know how to be a father - at least to Amir.

Rahim is the peacemaker (often an important role in Native American culture, as well as in Central Asia and the Middle East). Instead of being just a friend of Baba's, Rahim could easily be Amir's uncle or an elder cousin, who recognizes the emotional imbalance in the relationship between father and son and attempts to fill the void for Amir, while not trigering Baba's negative feelings towards his son.

May I also mention that the drinking of liquor among the upper class is also not unusual. Like other aspects of the culture (bisexuality, for example, which is tolerated, just not spoken of publicly), alcohol consumption is common; drinks are offered readily at social gatherings; liquor is offered as gifts and gratefully accepted.

What a narrow world they live in: three men and two children, also male. Where are the cousins, aunts, uncles, grandparents, of either of Amir's parents? Also, if Amir feels guilt for being born, why shouldn't his father feel guilty for creating the means (Amir) which ended her life? Every "failure" by Amir must have been like salt in a wound, while Hassan, the fruit of his betrayal of his friend Ali, shines. Amir is dross and Hassan is gold?

I think perhaps I have not been clear and that some of you have misunderstood what I was attempting to convey, I'm sorry, so just for the record:

I've gone back again and reread the last 70 posts here carefully, and I see several of you discussing guilt and shame,and the motivations of Hassan and Amir, and several good points made about the Pomegranate Incident, things like:

Kleo: But we catch glimpses of Hassan's desire to get back at Amir, when Hassan smashes the pomegranate in his own face, and other times. Hassan is not only all good

and Marni think Amir feels SHAME for being a coward (he feels it is his nature) resulting in Hassan's rape. Also, he felt he was a coward because he couldn't face Hassan after the rape and because he was unable to tell his father what had happened to Hassan.

and Barbara Over all this sweeps this shame that he is not worthy and has no value in his own eyes, much less the eyes of his father. He would prefer to be punished by Hassan, who he not only failed but who is in a lower place in society, just to make him feel better.

Hmmm as if Hassan punishing him would raise Hassan to a place equal to himself.

And there are other thoughts on Amir's guilt and shame, as well. My own thought, (and it WAS difficult to think of, much less articulate), in answer to Joan's excellent question, was intended to involve Amir's own motivation in approaching Hassan. Barbara has expressed one possibility in her last quote here, I was trying to express another.

I said nothing about a victim owing a rapist forgiveness. I believe you have misunderstood me, Kleo.

I also did not say that Hasssn owed Amir forgiveness for his lack of intervention, either, I don't think Hassan owes Amir anything. But conversely, he IS the only one who can forgive Amir, what a conundrum. (And I'm not sure, Barb, that we, here, can also reject out of hand the notion of "forgiveness" in any religion, cf the hundreds of internet references to "Atonement and Forgiveness"), but I personally, in answer to JoanK's point, wonder what Amir meant by approaching him? If you feel guilt and shame and you want to feel better, further victimizing the victim is unlikely to cause that, is it? Further lying about the victim is not going to help, it's going to compound it.

I think this is a legitimate question and issue, and I am sure every reader was just as surprised as Hassan, I know I was, and wonders it for himself, I did, and do, what on earth Amir is about and what he wants?!? Sometimes in our book discussions, it's difficult to even articulate our fledgling theories, we timidly advance them in the hopes that somebody else might have a different perspective and thus add to our own enlightenment, that's what I'm doing. The issue with me du jour is only what Amir meant in the Pomegranate Scene and what HE wanted. I still don't know? But it's clear he wants something and I think Hassan knows it and refers to it, while refusing to participate, or does he?

In fact, if you think about it, Amir seems to "want" a lot in this first 109 pages. From his father, especially. And from Hassan, and that's what I am trying to figure out, out loud here.

Mahlia, if you say in the upper classes drinking is quite common, then what does that say about the upper class's regard for that tenet of the religion? IF that IS a tenet of the religion? IS it?

Mr. SHERLOCK, there are relatives and gatherings with them.

GINNY, there is an inherent danger in discussing this book piecemeal, I believe. I don't mean to belabor the point, but if we had read the entire book, the answers to some of the deep, well thought-out questions, as well as the seemingly incomprehensible actions and reasonings of the protagonists would have been much clearer. But dependent on the schedule as we are, the hands of those of us who HAVE finished the book are tied.

Let's look at one thing once more:
The all important master-servant relationship, traditional, deeply ingrained, unalterable.

How COULD Baba have taken the risk of defying convention, tradition, his whole community, his world, by allowing Hassan, a servant and the son of a servant, a HAZARA (for heaven's sake! God help him) to be educated ?

As for the criterion of "predictability", we may be well advised to finish the book before drawing a definitive conclusion.

That's an interesting question, Traude, on the how could Baba have done.. and it really brings into light the heroic efforts of people who, in that same situtation in other times in history, did exactly that, thank you! Good points!

BarbaraP

I have been through most, but not all of the previous posts, not having time to join earlier. I have not seen anything in the posts about the question about the theme of water. Water is often used to represent the washing away of guilt or wrongdoings. Just about all religions use washing as part of their religious ritual. Amir needs the washing away of his cowardly deed, but he will not accept forgiveness. He gives Hassan more and more reasons to forgive, and Hassan continues to forgive him. In the New Testament Jesus, when asked if forgiving 7 times was enough, says 7 X 70 times, meaning without end. This is what Hassan is doing out of perfect, self-giving love.

Amir is not able to accept this much love, much more than he can give Hassan. Why can't he accept foregiveness? Because it is humilitatin? especially b/c of Hassan's social inferiority? Because he cannot forgive himself? Is this pride? Foregiveness does not require punishment of the foregiven, but Amir thinks that some revenge by Hassan would cure his feelings of guilt, somehow easier than accepting foregiveness.

hmmm OK Ginny this is just my thoughts as a reader - my reaction to the Pomegranate Incident...I thought that Hassan as a servant saw Amir throwing the pomegranates as his due - not understanding at all that Amir wanted him to act as an equal and get angry at such treatment therefore at least throw back at Amir some pomegranates. Just as Hassan called Assef by agha, keeping and making the point of his lower place in society so to when push comes to shove Hassan stays in his place with Amir.

Amir also has issue with Hassan looking like the lamb brought to slaughter. He is made uncomfortable with Hassan's eyes having a similar look as the sacrificial lamb.

My take is Amir wants from Hassan what in his place he cannot fathom. Amir wants Hassan to react as an equal, show angry feelings and Hassan does not act beyond his traditional role.

Even later in the book on page 118 - can you imagine anyone in real life slamming some one against the wall with their feet 2 feet above the floor while their assailant wraps their hands around their neck.

This is the stuff of swashbuckling novels like "Treasure Island", not real life...I am reminded of the recent telecast of "Judging Amy" when two Muslim families are in court and part of the decision helps us realize that brutal abusive behavior is not part of the Muslim faith. It is that some men are abusive just as we have abuse all over the world including wife beaters and child abusers here in the states. That we just do not accept it is normal behavior within families because someone is practicing another religion. It was plain to see the men in the other Muslim family were not abusive.

The difference here is that Hassan, like a plantation house slave, has status more than a field slave, on whom abuse was used with more frequancy. and although slave status was supposed to be illegal, Hassan and Ali are servants but considered to be less than...carrying with them the expected behavior of a slave.

Assef in all his ugliness tells it as it is on page 72 - .. "Because to him you're nothing but an ugly pet." -- Hassan says he is a friend of Asim but he also knows his place and like anyone living in an abusive situation they are not fully aware of their situation since they are dependent on the one who is keeping them in their place.

As to Hassan's act of rubbing the pomegranate on his face reminds me of how my one grandboy coming home from school with a group of schoolmates - two in the group were the class bullies and calling Ty all sorts of names that indicated he had no common sense and attacking his brain power. Rather than fighting back with either words or fists - Ty rolls his eyes and wags his tongue like a person incompetent and falls flat on the ground, the other kids roar laughing and the two bullies had the wind taken out of their sails so that Ty became the hero rather than the butt.

Now this was in a situation where they were all equals and still Ty deflected the abuse. And so that is how I see the pomegranate incident. Hassan deflecting the abuse and Amir in silence wanting Hassan to show anger and revenge.

Traude, in the first part of the book there were gatherings with Amir's relatives? I must have missed that.

Mrs Sherlock seems to me there was a party where neighbors, friends etc. attended - but there didn't seem to be any mention of any particular extended family members was there. No Aunt this or Uncle that - although, I have a feeling in Afghan Culture the words Aunt and Uncle are not used to define the relationship.

But for the most part this second part of the book, taking place in America, that we are getting into as of today, there are more intimates talked about than the first part of the book. Come to think on it, the words cousin and aunt etc. are mentioned in the chapters we are reading this week.

BarbaraP WELCOME glad you joined us - yes it is true that water is in our Christian faith represent the washing away of guilt or wrongdoings. In these next chapters there are many places that water or tea or drinks are included and they help to convey a mood as well as if you look a bit deeper they are saying something. I think the closest to our Christian concept of life is when Amir speaks of the rivers in America - but remember Amir is not Christian. This is a challenge for us to look at how a Muslim would observe the world if we are speaking of justice.

Which brings up the issue in all this that sent me on a tear was the issue of revenge - societies handle their justice either by Law, Common Law or Revenge. I have learned that certain social conditions are the basis for the search for justice within these three systems of law and culturally an individual will react to life within one of these systems.

The Christian faith was/is directing the faithful to justice based on either Common Law or Law and away from Revenge. We do have other faiths and other cultures who champion an eye for and eye. and so I think we are needing to to examine this book without our Christian Culture as the basis of understanding and that is not easy to suspend, but for a fuller emersion in the story I think we can try.

This is a wonderful site that started me on the road to understanding a society that uses Revenge or a Code of Honor. Both those words are linked in this article - I found scrolling down and then linking on those two concepts taught me tons Law From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Gotta run - be back later...

I remember something from "The Story of Civilization" discussion but don't remember the source. It implied an historical progression in the concept of justice. First comes revenge. This is very harmful socially, since it leads to an endless cycle: A kills B. B's brother then kills A. Now A's brother must kill B's brother, and on and on for years (we see centuries, where tribes or nations are involved.

So this evolves to the concept of "blood money": A kills B. A must then pay B's relatives, and the matter is considered settled (This is the "amends" we've been talking about. Although no life can be paid for really by money, it provides a way to end it, and heal).

This in turn evolves into the "rule of law" where specific punishments are laid out for specific crimes. This is what we have in our society today.

GINNY - in response to your earlier inquiry about the dictates for alcohol consumption in Islam: Islam forbids the consumption of liquor. However, a Muslim, like a person from any faith background, chooses to accept the prohibition or not.

Islam also teaches a deep respect for women, but we've seen how that is misinterpreted, often ignored and overshadowed by cultural traditions (here I am thinking of the Taliban in Afghanistan and the rigid Saudi customs).

It also prohibits harming those who are unable to protect themselves (especially children), yet there has been centuries of sexual abuse of children (especially boys) throughout Islamic lands. The owning, buying and selling of slaves (predominantly women and children) is still very much a part of the culture among the Muslims in sub-Sahara Africa.

Overall, then, one chooses to follow (or not) the core of their chosen religious dictates. Some do so with glad hearts, taking great joy in their faith, while others choose to "talk the talk," but ignore the walk.

Barbara--

How do I define Baba? I don't think I called him panegyrical, rather his donation of the orphanage involved a panegyric. This seemed to be a major part of the donation for Baba. He drinks. Yes, he's a blowhard. He wrestled bears in his time. He seems to me the ordinary big man of the early 20th century coming to terms with the modern world.

It's hard to take in some ways, that one must do more than feats of strength to be leader in the world today. That is part of the turmoil of Afghanistan, a man's loyalties should define him in a tribal society, but when kings fail, servants lead, and terror reigns, the value of a loyalty can be lost overnight. How can a man whose word is everything survive in that world?

Amir's father reminds me of my Uncle, and my Cousin, both of whom have passed in recent years. They were the patriarchs of their family in their times. But things changes a lot in the modern world. My cousin was very hard on his son, like Baba is on his son. I am hard on my cousin's son. He still has to grow up to be the family patriarch now that his father has passed. Ultimately Baba knows that his son must gain some moral fortitude to survive Afghan society. Baba must know his son will never be the leader his father is. Maybe Baba realizes that the time for leaders like Baba has passed. Alcohol is useful to deaden reality.

I'm not very familiar with the story of the Prophet Muhammed, at all. In fact, in Afghan culture, women are often very lax about the religion, not in practice, but in knowledge of detail, while the men are seriously knowledgeable about details. This does come up in conversation, often, because Afghans, like Middle Easterners, like to discuss religion. However, when I discuss religion and prophets with Afghan men, we are generally discussing Jesus Christ, a man about whom Afghans know a lot, because they admire Him greatly and are curious to know what I know about Him and think about Him. There are difficulties for Muslims with understanding the Holy Trinity, however, so we would not get into a conversation comparing triads in religion. Like Pope John Paul II, whose composer became a better Jew after meeting the Pope, we avoid topics that would present challenges to each others' religious faith because we all agree that I will strive to be a better Catholic while they strive to be better Muslims.

However, there are the five pillars of faith in Islam, but I can't really think of anything in Islam that comes in threes. This is probably something, though, that would be in your book on symbols and the like, Barbara.

Kleo

Oh, Barbara, there are plenty of Muslims in Siberia, Russia and the former Soviet Union. That I am not a Muslim does not follow from my Grandfather being a Russian. My Russian cousins all live in Central Asia, in the former Soviet Islamic Republics like Kazhakastan and Uzbekistan.

However, I did clarify early on that I am a Roman Catholic.

Kleo

Mahlia, about the liquor, this used to be common in Afghan society, upper class, as it is still common amongst the Iranians I know. This is no longer the case with Afghan society. No Afghan would publicly give a bottle of spirits as a gift to another Afghan. Iranians in America often drink wine with their evening meal, although not around Afghans any more.

Liquor? Yes, it happens, it's ignored. Afghans are no better or worse humans in their failures than Americans.

Yes, Mrs. Sherlock, it is a narrow world, as I and others said early on--it cries out for more women. But you also raise the issue of how few people. I had not seen that, just the five of them. It is a very small world for Afghans, even though they often have visitors and parties. Usually an Afghan's world is crowded with so many more people every single day.

One issue not raised is that with the death of a parent, only the mother's brothers incur a cultural obligation to the children. This means that had Amir's father died, Amir would have had his mother's uncles maybe even living with him. But with his mother's passing, only more men are added to the formula.

Kleo

Ginny--

The comment about a victim owing a rapist forgiveness was an allusion to blaming the victim, which you then bring up in your current post, "If you feel guilt and shame and you want to feel better, further victimizing the victim is unlikely to cause that, is it?" So, you seem to have got the allusion.

Ginny, I am expressing outrage at Amir, in response to what you brought up. Amir IS demanding that Hassan participate in Amir's act of forgiveness. This is why Amir can no longer live with Hassan.

It now seems, though, with this latest post, that my thinking you were expressing outrage at Amir was not correct. So your post now seems to be saying what you seem to think I thought you were saying and answered. This means that the possibility of further comprehension at this point is 0, at least for me.

So, to move on, I think the point of the pomegranate scene, and the point of the whole book so far is that Amir doesn't know what he wants. This is also, as I stated earlier, his father's frustration with Amir, that Amir requires Hassan to participate in forgiving Amir, that Amir cannot gain forgiveness without Hassan. There are plenty of folks like Amir who think they can get through life passively, never taking a stand on anything. It does them no good.

I do disagree, however, that Hassan is the only one, or even the main one to offer Amir forgiveness. This story is about Amir's failure to forgive himself.

Kleo

Baba drinks alcohol and Baba smokes. Alcohol has never been the drug of choice in Afghanistan since it has been illegal for most, if not all of its history.

Smoking on the other hand is routine, and according to Luke Powell (who did the photographs linked here) he saw hashish every day when he was in Afghanistan in the 1970's as he traveled across that country. Opium was also available.

In his photographs only the young or the few women he photographed at a distance seem to be upright. Nearly all the men are sitting or squatting against buildings in a perfect stillness or stupor unaware of the photographer, who said he shot his film at a distance and was very discreet so that his subjects for the most part did not know they were being photographed.

Since much of the first chapters of the book was set in the 70's, we know what much of Afghanistan was smoking. Hashish and Opium were much more available than alcohol, so they would be a natural choice. Afghanistan also had a form of crude heroin produced called brown heroin that was cheap and readily available.

Russian soldiers who were sent to Afghanistan to prop up the embattled government were introduced to this powerful drug, and many became addicted.

Fifi

Hmmm, Fifi, I don't know about this. I've known Afghans who drank and Afghans who smoked hashish (they all smoke cigarettes for a few years as far as I can tell). Drinking is tolerated and ignored. Smoking hashish is a banishable offense. Opium is grossly anti-social, and Afghans spend their lives surrounded 24 hours a day by other Afghans--opium is incompatible. Of course Afghans do drugs, as folks in most all cultures do. But commonly? I doubt it.

However, Afghanistan is an extremely poor Third World country. That many of the folks use drugs would not be a surprise where the life expectancy is less than 40 years and death in childbirth is still quite common. Opium subdues pains of arthritis, hunger, the infirmity of old age in a harsh land, as do many drugs of choice in countries where poverty is rampant.

Afghan women are all bent over because they do all their chores on their hands and knees. It drives me insane. When I read the silly Peace Corps story in anthropology about finding longer reeds for the poor women whose backs are bent from sweeping the floors with short-handled brooms I had to laugh. The women did with the long reeds what my Afghan cousin does with the brooms I bring over (for me to sweep with, not for her): uses them as poles to rig the awning over the patio, I'm sure.

That's one thing I've never been able to do, no matter how much time I spend around Afghans, squat for hours, or even sit cross-legged on the floor while eating or playing cards for hours.

Kleo

So many great points -
Mahlia -- "Islam forbids the consumption of liquor. However, a Muslim, like a person from any faith background, chooses to accept the prohibition or not." followed by the issues of women and the "sexual abuse of children (especially boys) throughout Islamic lands.' and then the issue of slavery.

There was a news item only yesterday on BBC news about slavery in Mauritania and I have been uncomfortable with photos of men kissing young boys. We know that children are not equal when sex is introduced by an adult. The one link, and I do not remember which one now, had a section on Pashtun humor which I assume is not much different among all those who live in Central Asia. I was taken back to read every joke was a put down of women's sexuality or women in general, especially the place of wives and what is expected. Reminded me of the west in the nineteenth century much less how we view equality in the twenty-first century.

As I read the book that was the difference I noticed between life in America as compared to life in Afghanistan even though the center for the relationships takes place in a strong Afghan community.

Kleo, so many great points --

"He [Baba] seems to me the ordinary big man of the early 20th century coming to terms with the modern world."
"That is part of the turmoil of Afghanistan, a man's loyalties should define him in a tribal society, but when kings fail, servants lead, and terror reigns, the value of a loyalty can be lost overnight."
"Maybe Baba realizes that the time for leaders like Baba has passed. Alcohol is useful to deaden reality."
"There are difficulties for Muslims with understanding the Holy Trinity, however, so we would not get into a conversation comparing triads in religion...However, there are the five pillars of faith in Islam, but I can't really think of anything in Islam that comes in threes."
"There are plenty of Muslims in Siberia, Russia and the former Soviet Union."
"Liquor? Yes, it happens, it's ignored. Afghans are no better or worse humans in their failures than Americans."
"One issue not raised is that with the death of a parent, only the mother's brothers incur a cultural obligation to the children. This means that had Amir's father died, Amir would have had his mother's uncles maybe even living with him. But with his mother's passing, only more men are added to the formula."
I think the point of the pomegranate scene, and the point of the whole book so far is that Amir doesn't know what he wants.

Interesting to me - after reading your post I looked up triads or threes in the Encyclopaedia of Traditional Symbols and there was NO referrences for the Islamic tradition where as there is reference in Duality, the numbers 4,5,7,8, 10 and 12 oh yes, and 40.

I see Amir as one angry young man, anger at his father who spends an inordinate amount of time away from home. His father has a wide circle of friends who Amir tells us are at his house weekly in the big dining room that has a table that seats thirty.

His father flies off to Iran to watch soccer matches on television, and leaves Amir alone with only Ali and Hassan as company. When they make a trip to Jalalabad, that Amir had asked for, here are Amir's words, "It should have been just the two of us-that was the way I wanted it-but by Wednesday night, Baba had managed to invite another two dozen people."

Baba was a social butterfly, and Amir seemed more of a loner who needed his fathers total attention. His father gave him attention but it was never enough. I see Amir as a loner who zeros in on his companion of choice, and that choice (Baba) must devote his full time and attention to his son excluding others. Loners do not include others, they exclude.

Amir's anger is acted out against Hassan who in a position of servitude, and who he knows cannot strike back without dire consequences. Like all loners he hatches a plot to rid the home of anyone but his father and himself.

I don't see his motive as shame or guilt, but anger and jealousy. To feel shame or guilt you would have to care about the people you have injured. Here is some of what Amir says about Ali and Hassan.

Ali's parents are killed by two brothers, young men from a wealthy and reputable family in Kabul. They are high on hashish and kill them with their car. Baba's father is a judge and sentences the two young men to enlist in the army for a year. Ali is left an orphan so Baba's father takes him into his household and tells the other servants to show him the ropes. Ali and Baba were close in age and played together as children. Baba was always telling of their exploits, but Ali reminded him, "But, Agha sahib, tell them who was the architect of the mischief and who the poor laborer?"

Amir tells us, "But in none of his stories did Baba ever refer to Ali as his friend."

"The curious thing was, I never thought of Hassan and me as friends either."

Without even the tenuous strand of friendship, what Amir expresses again and again is jealousy and anger. I see not one iota of guilt, as he explains the situation thus......

"In the end, I was a Pashtun and he was a Hazara, I was Sunni and he was Shi'a, and nothing was ever going to change that. Nothing."

The word, 'nothing' divests us of any possibility that Amir and Hassan could ever be anything other than master and servant in Afghanistan.

No guilt, no shame, just 'nothing'.

Fifi

WOW Fifi thanks for sharing - you saw things that were not brought into this conversation and are important - Amir the loner - sure gives us another picture of the young man - my only concern is that I wonder if he choice to be a loner of if because of the differences in his interests than those of Baba he feels the sting of being unacceptable and is wanting his father's acceptance so badly that he feels everyone is in the way until he gets that acceptance... But he is one angry little boy isn't he...

However, that whole bit about how Ali came to live in their home we did overlook or at least I over looked it - I guess the one guy being high on Hashish lets us know the drug is used regardless how much it is frowned upon.

As to Amir the loner and wanting his father - that one seems to be which came first the chicken or the egg - I have a suspicion the question will be with us till the end of the story.

We do see that when the two enter the fuel truck, their ship or coffin?? Amir has his father totally to himself and in America it is just Amir and his father - a lot changes for both of them - almost as if that ride in the fuel truck and exiting was a rebirth of Amir.

Please notice - we are opened to discuss the next section of the book in addition to the section that tells us of Amir's childhood.

The schedule is highlighted showing the pages we are adding to our discussion as well as, there are new focus questions in the heading -
I know, we all scroll by quickly after a few days of entering a discussion therefore we may miss the changes...

Fifi--

Interesting comments about Amir being a loner. This does go to the heart of Afghan culture, that Afghans spend every minute of time with other Afghans. I only know one Afghan who spends much time alone, my nephew, who is like Amir in many ways. It is also human nature to seek the company of other humans, so it doesn't have to be a purely Afghan story.

I think Amir has many ways to divest himself of responsibility, that 'nothing' will ever change his and Hassan's positions in society, that Hassan has a duty to an action to allow Amir to seek forgiveness. It's never Amir's responsibility, somehow. Good points.

"I guess the one guy being high on Hashish lets us know the drug is used regardless how much it is frowned upon." Barbara

Barbara, I'm not sure what you mean here. We don't need to have an example that one person in a fiction was killed by someone high on hashish to know that hash is used in every country in the world, and frowned upon by the vast majority of humans. I'm pretty sure no one in here doubted it being used. Still, I would like some idea of what it's usage level is in Afghanistan, today, though, and the use of drugs in general in Third World countries, versus Western societies where we know drug abuse is rampant. Also, in the ancient world, versus modern times. I also do wonder what role drug abuse plays in battling poverty. I know that some natives in areas where khat is grown chew the leaves, at least at first, to dull the ache of hunger. I'm not conversant enough in hashish use to know if it causes the THC-induced symptom of food-tripping, which would certainly not help combat hunger.

Again, Fifi, interesting comments.

Kleo

Whoops Kleo I am only saying it may be frowned upon but this guy was a user and like the posts from earlier today we realized that there are no absolutes -

Muslims may not condone alcohol or drugs or abuse but it happens - as the rest of the world I am not sure how the rest of the world comes into this conversation - sounds sorta sweeping to me - I think my sentence was short and could be read in any voice you choose but I was saying it simply as a statement of fact - this is an example of someone who used and caused the death of someone's parents. No different than anyone today who uses or drinks and causes the death of another because they cannot drive safely. Afghanistan has its uses, its growers and those who do not use like anywhere.

OK a quick research and this is what I come up with --

"Hashish is a concentrated form of marijuana made by taking resin from the leaves and flowers of the marijuana plant and pressing them into cakes or slabs. Hash is mostly smoked in a pipe rather than rolled into a cigarette. It is usually stronger than crude marijuana because it contains five to ten times as much THC.Hash oil may contain up to 50 percent THC.

Marijuana in the Body -- When marijuana is smoked, it travels down the windpipe and into the lungs. Once in the lungs, the smoke passes through the bronchi and into the alveoli (air sacs) where the THC passes into the bloodstream. THC is then absorbed by most tissues and organs in the body, especially fat cells and organs such as the brain. The "high" reaches its peak in approximately 10-30 minutes and will last from two to eight hours, depending on the amount of marijuana used.

It takes a week to one month for all the chemicals from one marijuana cigarette to leave the body. As more marijuana is smoked, THC accumulates in the cells and the body is never drug free. When chronic users stop using marijuana, it takes about three months for the accumulation of THC to leave the body.

When marijuana is eaten, it enters the stomach and is broken down for digestion by enzymes. At this time, THC passes into the bloodstream. Smoking marijuana puts 5-10 times more THC into the body than eating it."

Barbara, I think Mahlia covered this point well earlier. The rest of the world comes into the conversation, I think, because Muslims and Afghans don't differ much from the rest of the world in this respect. Christians don't condone murder, but Christians murder. Muslims don't condone murder but Muslims murder. Ditto Jews and Christians and Buddhists on drug and alcohol abuse. There is always the ideal and the reality. It did appear like you were using the example of the one man using hashing to conclude that others in Afghanistan surely must use hashish--this is why I asked. It's the content I'm discussing, not the voice, which I realize I simply can't get from the Internet.

I think Traude was the first to bring up the point of what the rest of the world has to do with it, though, and, the more I read, the more I think that Traude was right on. This is a human story, not an Afghan story. The failing is human, not Afghan. But I can't quite settle into it, for some reason.

This goes directly to one of the new questions. Would it have mattered if Amir married an American woman? Or, rather, would it have changed the plot. Barabara, do you mean white woman or do you mean a non-Afghan woman?

From the point of marrying a non-Afghan American woman I keep debating myself, would it matter, wouldn't it matter? After all, Amir's basic fault seems to me to be his longing to belong. Does this contradict his loner tendencies? I know quite a few loners, and they still need some human contact. If Amir marries a non-Afghan woman will this compound his sense of isolation? It could. But, again, the basic fault seems to be Amir's, his putting himself outside of his culture. At this point, I don't see how it would change the underlying conflict in Amir, his desire to belong, his sense of isolation, since this has to come from Amir, not from his wife. But, then again....

It seems that Soroya brings Amir so easily into Afghan culture. First, Amir obviously wants Soroya to tend his father, as would be the Afghan custom. But he is afraid to ask this of her. Generally this is an issue that would be settled before the marriage, that the daughter would move into the son and his father's home to care for the father. It would be a legitimate reason for marrying a woman, from an Afghan perspective. Baba would have not accepted a non-Afghan American woman doing this for him, though. I think it would have required a major change in the plot, actually, because it would have to focus on Baba's acceptance of Amir, instead of Amir's acceptance of himself.

Traude--I do like reading the book while discussing it, instead of ahead of time. For me it enhances the reading of the book, to mull over these points, without knowing their ultimate outcome. It's like reading a murder mystery. I LIKE not knowing who done it.

Kleo

Someone commented that Baba "seems to me the ordinary big man of the early 20th century coming to terms with the modern world.....Maybe Baba realizes that the time for leaders like Baba has passed."

I don't think Baba is ordinary at all. He is big, physically, and in many things he does. He does things in a big way. He is powerful, a bear of a man. He has big ideas and can push things through to accomplishment, like the orphanage. He enjoys interacting with people in a big way, likes being surrounded by them, having fun with them, conversing with them entertaining them, being complimented by them. He likes being in the center of things wherever he is. He is very charismatic, whether in Afghanistan or in America. Wherever he is, people like him and honor him.

Baba is big in courage, sometimes to the point of being reckless, as when standing up against the Russian soldier to protect the women from rape. He risked his life (and perhaps other lives) for this action. Sometimes, you see he is the only one to be so courageous.

Parallels:

I see a parallel between Baba and Ali's relationship and that of Amir and Hassan.

Both Baba and Ali played together often when they were young, seemed best friends or brothers. They had fun and got into trouble together, and it sounds like Baba was the instigator. Doesn't theis sound exactly Amir and Hassan?

Baba refused to call Ali his friend. Amir refused to call Hassan his friend.

Baba treated Ali at times in a fairly despicable manner, because of tradition towards Hazaras, I guess. Baba lived in his beautiful big house, and Ali lived in the mud hut in the back, for example. Amir often treated Hassan cruelly.

I think Baba loved Ali. I think Amir loved Hassan. I bet both Baba and Ali felt guilt and shame at times about the treatment of Ali and Hassan.

Marni

I'm glad the subject of water came up. I think we might discuss LACK of water also. That runs throughout the book, too - many descriptions of dryness, leaves shriveling up, dust blowing, etc. Pictures of water or lack of it appear at key points throughout the book.

Kleo, I will join you in the 'non squatters' club. I suppose if you had always done the squat, it would be easier, but I grew up in the easy chair tradition, and it's too late to change now.

Fifi

FIFI"The curious thing was, I never thought of Hassan and me as friends either."

Without even the tenuous strand of friendship, what Amir expresses again and again is jealousy and anger. I see not one iota of guilt, as he explains the situation thus...... "

I disagree. The reason we have such a low opinion of Amir is that he is constantly castigating himself. Remember, this is a man looking back, describing his actions as a child, and telling us over and over again how bad he was. Someone who wasn't racked with guilt would never give us this description: for example, would never even notice that he never called Hassan his friend or taught him how to read.

The analogy with Whites and Blacks in America comes to mind. I remember being in Israel in the 60s and hearing Americans tell Israelis that Blacks were not discriminated against in America: they were "very well treated". Completely unaware!! Not even realizing that the fact that they assume it is up to them to "treat Blacks well" itself means they are subordinates. That is the way people who don't feel guilty think. Not like Amir.

Amir is racked with guilt. Dragging out every mean thing he ever did to Hassan and confessing it!

On Hash: it is mentioned in the book that many Russian soldiers became addicted to drugs: in the border scene where the drugged soldier wants to rape the woman and is stopped.

In this scene too, we see that Baba is not just a blowhard and social butterfly: he really does stand up for what is right, even at cost of his life.

What do you think of the transformation of Baba in America? I found parts of it very believable: the combination of his maintaining his own self in the Afghan community, refusing welfare, but refusing to adjust to American society, and so seeming inept when he has to deal with it. Those of you who have lived with many older immigrants, do you agree?

I didn't find the change in his relationship with Amir as believable. Suddenly, he is much closer to Amir. Now he must depend on Amir in many ways, but this seems to bring them closer, rather than causing tension. All this didn't ring true to me.

I love this thing about water.

Amir is very watery. He's always either crying, throwing up (after salivating first), or sweating. His father makes a big deal about despising him for crying and throwing up. His father, the manly man, thinks Amir is a coward; and, to him, Amir's tears and throwing up are physical evidence of cowardice or, perhaps, of feminine traits.

I know, in America, boys are usually raised not to cry. It's unmmanly. Girls blubber a lot and it's acceptable. But, crying is a catharsis - you can let out your emotions. Boys and men hold their emotions in accept in war and sports. I guess it's the same in Afghanistan? Many countries?

So, it seems that Amir lets out a lot of his emotions rather than holding them inside. But, he's still racked with guilt, shame, anger, jealousy. Hmmm.

The whole repetitive theme of the lack of water, dryness, dustiness, includes barrenness.

This story shows a number of barren people, people who cannot have children, like Soraya.

Oh my, Marni! Fabulous!

Barren, you're so right, and in so many ways, you could carry that concept further to other characters, too.

And then that deliberate physical dryness, everything is scorched and withered, including Rahim Khan, that scorched earth image that was the first thing that struck me about this second section.

Barbara, if Hassan were raised to a place equal to Amir, if they were equals, what would that accomplish for Amir?

I wasn't going to say it but Joan K did: I didn't find the change in his relationship with Amir as believable. Suddenly, he is much closer to Amir. Now he must depend on Amir in many ways, but this seems to bring them closer, rather than causing tension. All this didn't ring true to me.

Me either, this entire second section, to me, is ...so different, it just seems so different from the first. Did anybody else have that feeling?

I do see the repeated and continuing images of the kite, in this section, but I was conscious of a distance developing between me and the main character, and I can't figure out why. I don't know if it's the author doing it purposefully, as Marni notes poor Amir is hardly, at this point anyway, what we think of as strong and manly, exaggeratedly so.

One interesting thing, I thought, was the attitude (again pairs, again parallels) of Baba to welfare, refusing to take it and preferring to work in the garage, and the General Sahib, who did take it because it was beneath him to work at a job less than his former status, I found that kind of hard to understand, apparently in his mind Welfare was of more prestige than a menial job would be. There are lots of people who won't take Welfare, so the attitude of the Government worker there when Baba refused it also did not ring true, to me.

Did anybody else seem to see a change here in the writing in this section? I am not sure what I'm seeing. It got to the point that I was afraid to read of another knock on the door for fear of who would turn up, I keep wondering if we all had to write the ending of the book right now and predict the end, (those of us who have not read further) what you would predict will happen?

I also prefer to read along with the group, so far I don't see anything that refutes what I thought in the first section, but I also love the water theme, BarbaraP, and all the implications, especially the barrenness, Marni! Well done! Nice question in the heading about "water," also Barb!

Love, it, I would never have seen that, reading alone.

GINNY - I don't think that the General thought of Welfare as being "more prestigious," but perhaps since it is a Government distribution and he was accustomed to being paid by the Afghan Government, he thought of it as government-sponsored and thus OK. Regardless of whether he accepted Welfare, I would NOT have expected him to work in any kind of menial job in the USA.

In reading about the General, I was reminded of several former Iranian Generals and Colonels whom I knew in Washington DC. They'd immigrated to the US, lived in other parts of the US before moving to Washington. They all had their families with them. I usually visited with them and their families during social occasions, although one did ask me about arranging for him to visit the Foreign Relations military sector at the Pentagon. I escorted him there, stayed with him while he engaged in "soldier's talk" with several of the senior rank, and then we were invited to lunch.

When this particularl Iranian General came to Washington, he expected to be hired as a "consultant" by the Pentagon. That didn't happen. He was absolutely devastated, since while he was in Iran, he met and became friendly with the American military attaches at the US Embassy. They had refused to receive him when he and his family came to the US.

This man was devastated and sank into a deep depression. I heard about his state of mind through mutual friends and called my uncle (a retired American senior military officer) and discussed it with him. He told me to "stand down," and he would take care of the matter.

The next thing I knew, the Iranian General called to thank me for putting my uncle in touch with him. Subsequently, my uncle arranged for some funds to be forwarded to the Iranian fellow with the explanation that "my wife's niece is from the family of ____________ in Iran. These funds are for your children, just as your family would take care of my wife's niece and her son if they were in Iran." The funds were sent to the Iranian in the form of a bank check; no hand-to-hand money changing. With that kind of an explanation, coming from a military officer who outranked the Iranian officer, there was no way that he could refuse.

I can also understand why BABA wold NOT accept a Welfare check (or cash) from the hand of a woman in the Welfare office. That truly would be beneath his dignity. Over the years, I've given lots of funds to immigrants, but NEVER from my hand to theirs. I wouldn't insult them in that way. And always with the explanation that the funds are for their children, never for them personally.

In dealing with Iranians, I always explain that the funds are coming from my family, not me personally. And if the men (never the women) are REALLY stubborn, I mention that I am a grandmother, the senior woman in our branch of the family, and thus entitled to allocate a certain portion of family money (not using the word "give") in any way I please. They are NOT permitted to thwart my plans for their children. Sometimes it's all in the way the funds are presented.

When my uncle dies, this responsibility will pass to my son whenever Iranians are involved. Since my husband is an Egyptian (an Arab Muslim), they would NEVER accept zakat from him. We are aware of that and do not embarrass the Iranians.

Afghans handle money in pretty much the same way that Iranians do. Part of this subtlety in handling money, we should understand, is that Muslims don't take credit for the gift. Giving someone the money directly does give you credit for the gift. Giving it in a roundabout manner acknowledges the money is going where it should, not that the person who gives is getting proper credit. I know plenty of Afghans who would rather starve than take welfare and plenty who think it's rather funny that the American government supports people so freely with money, people who have families.

Baba is far more dependent upon Amir in America than he was in Afghanistan. Why wouldn't their relationship change? The scenes in America are straight out of everyday life in Fremont's Afghan American society. Baba is also getting older, and knows his health will fail some day--what is he to do then, but require his son to tend him?

This would be usually in any culture, where an older parent or an ill parent suddenly needs the child and expresses this need that has never been seen before.

Baba loves Amir, as someone else pointed out earlier. But don't forget, Baba probably learns the truth of what happened to Hassan and Ali and chose his son over his servants--blood is thicker than water, Amir tells us. It's not just water, it's blood. Blood is Amir's roots to his tribe, what he cannot see, no matter how hard he looks, and water is Amir's roots to his mother, who is absent. Afghan men cry without shame. Shame is spilt blood, guilt is spilt or wasted water.

I had a strange conversation with one of the Afghan boys last night while watching a home movie (which Afghans and Iranians are addicted to) with some family of a birthday party. The boy, 17, was criticizing the fact that all of the gifts (being opened on film, which everyone agreed was somewhat inappropriate, although it was the end of the party) were clothes. Well, the father is very ill, and there are 5 or so young children in the family. Amir reminds me of this boy, not attuned to his culture in many ways, yet trying so hard to be part of all the wrong parts of it that he misses where he does belong. This boy does write poetry, also.

Yes, that Amir can castigate himself so harshly shows that he cares about his actions and his behavior. No other can be as hard on a person as they can be on themselves--if they feel deeply. Amir feels deeply, not always beneficial.

Kleo

KLEO - We sure must know many of the same people!

MAHLIA,

your post reminded me of Col. Behrani in the heart-breaking book The House of Sand and Fog by Andre Dubus III, which we discussed here in March 2003.

There is the same cultural clash.

Col. Behrani too is an Iranian immigrant who had fled turbulent Iran in one of the last planes out after the fall of the Shah. From France he made his way to the U.S., certain that he would easily find a job because of his experience and knowhow.

Over time all his hopes are dashed.

His unhappy, resentful life spends her days in the darkened expensive apartment in San Francisco they can no longer afford, listening to Iranian songs. Nobody knows that the Colonel earns his money working in a highway-clearing crew alongside deadbeats and ruffians.

With the last of his money he buys a house that is auctioned off for non-payment of taxes by the owner - and that makes the tragic story.

Th discussion is in our Archives.

TRAUDE - I remember that discussion well. Col. Behrani reminds me of a senior Iranian military officer (a former pilot) whom I knew in Washington. His daughter was one of my students. The fellow worked in construction - his colleagues called him "Jose" and thought he was from somewhere in South America. Although the daughter (and a younger son) adjusted well to the US, the fellow's wife did not, maintaiing her upper-class style of dress and manners at all times. It was truly sad.

I recall another fellow - also a former senior Iranian military officer - who sold synthetic "Persian" carpets from the back of a truck at a Farmer's Market in Maryland. I recognized him from earlier photos of him (in uniform) acompanying the late Shah of Iran. Fortunately, I kept my mouth shut and did not indicate I'd recognized him. Equally sad.

You are so right, MAHLIA.

Besides, being an immigrant myself, I know the experience. It shook me a little, I confess, to discover that few people in the House of Sand and Fog discussion could muster any symphathy for Col. Behrani.

Also, I am not willing to let go of the first part of the Kite Runner quite yet and plan on getting to that in the morning. Deo volente.

Dear all...I got two things out of this book... first of all, it was predictable as I said previously..I knew exactly what was going to happen.. and secondly..it's the immigrant experience. It does not matter WHERE you come from, whether you think you speak the language or not..coming to America is a culture shock..you cannot imagine, unless you have lived it, how alien America can be for a foreigner. We cling to our customs and mores, find others who are like us until we become acclimatized. (But we don't really, inside) This really hit home as I went to my volunteer job Friday which is on Milwaukee Avenue in Chicago.Polish speaking people at the bus stop outside; Polish flags on cars;, people young and old some with banners;more flags; babies pushed in strollers by their Moms in National costumes; all getting together and marching to Jackowo for a memorial Mass for their Polish Pope. Thousands of Polish people. But to return to one's native country..now that's a shock in reverse, see how our hero copes with that one. Colkot.

I, too, saw a big change in the relationship between Baba and Amir when they emigrated to America. I don't think I really thought about it being unbelievable, though. It would be culture shock for both.

Amir said he used America to try to forget the past. Maybe Baba did, too. They both had to start over in so many ways, why not with their relationship, as well, since they just had each other now? Or was Baba just resigned to accept things because he now had so little? He even accepted that Amir was to be a writer.

Baba had little money and had to do demeaning things for a living in America, such as scramble for tag sale items to sell for a small profit. This seemed tragic for Baba because he no longer was such a big man in his community, although he still was greatly respected by fellow emigres. However, he retained his pride by refusing welfare and by working hard for a living. He was always a hard worker.

As the cancer ate away at him, as he got thinner and thinner and smaller, is this symbolic of the diminishing man? He refused the medical assistance that might have extended his life for awhile. He probably felt he didn't have anything more to live for, especially once Amir was married and on the road to a career. Baba thought he had done his duty to his family.

The Garage Sale/Flea Market Afghan community is not composed wholey of Afghans who are doing "demeaning things" for a living. My cousin was a well-employed engineer who did this. The Afghans at the flea markets are wealthy and poor, well-established 2nd and 3rd generation and brand new immigrants from refugee camps in Pakistan. This is an Afghan community, where Baba felt he belonged amongst other Afghans who recognized him for who he was--it was where he could be who he was, not who he had become in America.

Declining further medical intervention when one is dying is not an Afghan trait. Not everyone wants their life to continue with brutal medical intervention no matter what their circumstances. My father-in-law died peacefully of end stage metastasized (to all his organs) terminal lung cancer and was revived! Not all medical intervention is desirable to all folks at all times. This is a decision that Westerners might make. I think though, that the point that Baba was able to die with Amir established was important--it certainly would make passing more comfortable for anyone to know their children were secure.

Barbara--I would like you to clarify what you mean by if "Amir married a white girl, as the author originally intended." Do you mean a non-Afghan American woman? An American white woman? A white woman, as in "a member of the Caucasoid race?" I think this does apply to Soroya, whatever the author's confusion, if any, about the matter. Or do you mean non-Pashtun. I am pretty sure, although, as I expressed before, not positive, that Pashtuns must be "member of the Caucasoid race" as it is defined. "White" is very ambiguous. Please clear this up so I understand what you are asking! Maybe with the author's quote?

A big part of the tragedy of these deposed generals from all over the place is the part they played in international intrigues orchestrated by the same super powers who won't receive them now. I like to say they are "desposed"--both removed from power and thrown in the trash now that their use in done. I am ambivalent about seeing the human side of their tragedy knowing how they abused human beings with their power. Ultimately, though, all humans, except psychopaths, have the same human failings and strengths, whatever they choose to do with them to gain power. Having never faced the choices that Iranians have faced to live their lives, I cannot say I would be so superior a human as to have not turned to abuse to save my own family.

Kleo

Mahlia--

It seems that Afghan culture is more Persian than most Afghans might care to admit. It does seem as if we move in the same worlds because of this. However, the Afghans and Iranians I have known have been largely on the side of resistance movements, a few Afghans in connection with the deposed royal family, but that's it. The few Pashtuns largely consumed by the much older and larger Tajik families. The Afghans I know come generally from Kabul, north of Kabul (I'm sure you know what this means), and southwest Afghanistan. The Iranians left before the fall of the Shah, or they are Bahais and some other non-Muslim Iranians.

Certainly we would not bat an eye at anything in each others' worlds. This is part of the immigration community, how shocking America is, but also, for many, how they are able to live their own lives in America. I never realized how different some parts of my background were until post 9/11, then reading this book and seeing how intimately I lived in the same America as Baba and Amir. Before 9/11 the only talk about Afghans was "let's eat Afghan" style, meaning we could sit on the floor and eat with our hands instead of forks.

Kleo

A friend of mine in Sisters, OR, just mailed me a reader's guide for the Kite Runner. It seems that the Deschutes Public Library System is having this book for their big book read from mid-Apr. to mid-May. The booklet is filled with all sorts of info on Afghanistan and then wonderful questions and then spaces for you to answer some open-ended questions. Plus, they have planned all sorts of events with lectures on Afghanistan, a community kite flying day and finally a visit from the author on 14. May. Wow.

Kathy

The first two parts might almost be from different books. Amir is the lonely outsider at the beginning, but he seems to slip right in to assimilation in the second part. His father's relationship with him has changes as he has become a man who is self-comficent, fits in his own skin. Maybe Anir and Baba couldn't build a good relationship when Amir was so needy. Baba supplied all his material needs, but the emotional ones were beyond him. Hassan would have been incapable of making demands on Baba, so Baba's relationship there would be one-sided.

I found it very interesting to see the posts about living here in America.. the best thing is, as soon as you close your door you can be exactly WHO you are, speak your own language, practice your own religion ,eat your own kind of food...you can turn America off. When we were helping new immigrant children some years ago we had a place where no-one asked them to speak English, just to play in their own fashion. It was a relief from the pressure for them to be Americans 24/7. By the way this IS my home now,I've spent most of my adult life here..I have my citizenship, I vote and have been an election judge. As to our hero marrying "outside"..(it's been my experience that most do not),it's not "comfortable" particularly as his father is still alive. Colkot

Back later tonight - this year's tax time is a nightmare for me - each year I promise to be more organized but last year took the cake - I am tearing into nooks and crannies all over this house looking for bits of paper, receipts - grrrrr - but I will be back later tonight and bring us up to date by capturing what everyone has said for the last 2 or 3 days - lots of great posts - great posts! - with wonderful associations - I even have a few of my own - just let me get some of this in at least piles - Till Later...

and a grrrr

Kleo: You commented: "Declining further medical intervention when one is dying is not an Afghan trait." Do you mean that it IS an Afghan trait? It seems so from the rest of your paragraph.

You also commented: "Not all medical intervention is desirable to all folks at all times. This is a decision that Westerners might make." What do you mean here when you say, "This is a decision that Westerners might make"? Why Westerners?

The story of your dad is very sad. It must have been shocking to your family when he was revived after passing peacefully. My husband and I decided we didn't want to take any chances on what happens to us. We now have living wills.

Hmmm, Marni, some last minute posting and editing and who can tell what I said? Declining last minute heroic medical intervention at all costs is not something that solely Afghans do, the trait does not belong to Afghans, it belongs to people of all cultures. Why Westerners? Because everyone in here is one, even the one or two not born into it.

Kleo

KATHY - here's a link to the Deschultes Public Library System and their program for discussing the Kite Runner. Lucky Ducks! County-wide discussion AND they encourage the residents to all read at the same time. Great idea. I may suggest that to the Library system here.

http://www.dpls.lib.or.us/News.asp?NewsID=263

KLEO - Yup, we'd probably blend right in with each other's family gatherings. My husband often jokes with me by asking "which wife are you now: the French/Irish Catholic? The Persian Jewish lady? Or perhaps the Persian Muslima? I remember that he was shocked the first time he observed me in a setting with people from the Middle East and Central Asia. He told me later "you acted just exactly like an Egyptian lady!"

RE your earlier question about a white woman: if the Afghan Pashtuns consider themselves to be descendents of the Jews, wouldn't they be Semitic, not Caucasian? Thus "white" wouldn't really be relevant, would it? Of course, "non-Afghan" is altogether a different situation.

Years ago, one of my American female students happily told me that she was engaged to marry a Pashtun, whom she met at university. I advised very strongly against the marriage and explained why, going into great cultural detail. Needless to say, they married and divorced within a year. When I saw the young woman again, she asked me "why didn't you tell me about my husband and his family?" I did, but I suspect that his dark hair, beautiful eyes, strong body and beautiful smile overtook any of my words. Had she seen his temper before the marriage, she might have had second thoughts.

Thanks for the Deschutes site. I, too, am going to show and tell the reader's guide at my library and bookstore.

Kathy

Before going on to the newly assigned chapters, may I refer to the following:

a sentence in Chapter Six, pg 50 : "In Kabul, fighting kites was a little like going to war."

pp. 82 ff. of Chapter Eight,
describing the trip to Jalalabad = Amir's reward for winning the kite tournament.
Amir had hoped he would for once have Baba's undivided attention.
Baba asked whether Hassan might want to come along and Amir vaguely replies that Hassan had not been feeling well, which in turn worries Baba.
Baba invites instead a large number of relatives, adults and children, in three vans. They all celebrate Amir, who is choking with his lie - and carsick to boot.

pp. 98 ff. where Rahim Khan tells Amir how he, Kahim, at age eighteen, almost married a Hazara girl

and the events at Amir's 13th birthday party cum fireworks.

I don't believe we have mentioned Baba's and Amir's escape from Kabul to freedom in Pakistan and all its horrors:
among them the ride in the truck, the checkpoint, the drugged Russian soldier intent on carrying a young mother off the truck ... how Baba saved her ...the rat-infested basement where some escapes hid... Baba picking up a handful of dirt from the unpaved road, kissing it, putting some of it in a box and stowing it in his breast pocket ...

encountering a vacant-looking Kamal and his father in that basement.. Kamal, himself by now a rape victim, as his father tells Baba.

(It will be remembered that Kamal, with Assef and Wali, was one of Amir's and Hassan's tormentors.)

These events (and what happened to Kamal and his father) are described in ChaptEleven - somewhat inconsistently - says Fremont, California, 1980's , and begins with "Baba loved the idea of America. It was living in America that gave him ulcers." (The emphasis on "living" is mine.)

Of himself Amir says, "For me, America was a place to bury my memories." Well, he had good reason, and to this reader he is not a sympathetic figure.

Question Five in the header is unanswerable, I believe. This would never have been an issue. Surely there were girls in high school and later in college with Amir, white, black, brown. None such is ever alluded to.

Incidentally, his wife's name is SorAya, as in Soraya Esfandiari, the second wife of The Shah of Iran whom he loved but reluctantly divorced because she too, like wife # 1, was unable to bear him a male heir.

KLEO, please forgive me but I don't quite understand your post about your father. If it is not too painful, would you please clarify what you meant?

In my last edit of # 468, somes lines were involuntarily left out, and a typo remained.

The typo first: it should read escapEEs in the basement, not escapes.

Here is how the text was intended to read :

Chapter Ten under the title March 1981 (1981!) describes the flight from Kabul;

Chapter Eleven under the title Fremont, California, 1980's(1980's!!) describes the events ATTER Baba's and Amir's arrival in America, which would seem to be inconsistent chronologically.

One more look back:

Baba was anything BUT ordinary. A bear of a man. He was larger than life. Respected, generous, totally unselfish in building the orphanage e.g., without deliberately trying to become famous, collecting (unknown) Brownie points or laurels -- even though that is what happened.

There was a change in the relationship between father and son - once they came to this country.

The son was in the "mainstream" of things in school; he was the facilitator in their greatly changed circumstances; the father started out afresh, as all immigrants have to do; an executive now in a menial job, he became dependent on his son in many ways --- a total role reversal.

Even so, some people in the new American Afghan community knew Baba, some had heard OF him, which must have been a consolation for him as he tried to cope with the new customs and mores of his chosen country.

America makes no special allowances for newcomers - either you buckle under and conform, or you fail.

The changed "tone" of the narrative is a direct result - nothing was as it had been before.

Wow a lot to catch up on - but this is a good review I think for us -

Way way back there we have Joan sharing with us her memory of discussing in "The Story of Civilization" discussion the historical progression in the concept of justice.

We didn't go into the subject very deeply did we - but I found it fascinating the more I read that a tribal culture goes hand in glove with the Code of Honor that is based on revenge and that the left over revenge code is the basis for our death penalty. As I read I became aware that in order for the system of law to change the society must change.

Mahlia reminded us that, "Overall, then, one chooses to follow (or not) the core of their chosen religious dictates. Some do so with glad hearts, taking great joy in their faith, while others choose to "talk the talk," but ignore the walk."

Kleo gave us her understanding of Baba, as an "ordinary big man of the early 20th century coming to terms with the modern world...one must do more than feats of strength to be leader in the world today. That is part of the turmoil of Afghanistan, a man's loyalties should define him in a tribal society, but when kings fail, servants lead, and terror reigns, the value of a loyalty can be lost overnight. How can a man whose word is everything survive in that world?"

Amir's father reminds me of my Uncle, and my Cousin, both of whom have passed in recent years. They were the patriarchs..."

Fifi reminds us that "the book was set in the 70's, we know what much of Afghanistan was smoking. Hashish and Opium were much more available than alcohol, so they would be a natural choice." And Fifi adds that the photos of Luke Powell show men squatting and smoking.

Kleo

adds that squatting is not her thing...

Later Kleo reminds us that Afghan usually do not spend much time alone. Than Kleo says, "Amir's basic fault seems to me to be his longing to belong...If Amir marries a non-Afghan woman will this compound his sense of isolation? It could. But, again, the basic fault seems to be Amir's, his putting himself outside of his culture. At this point, I don't see how it would change the underlying conflict in Amir, his desire to belong, his sense of isolation, since this has to come from Amir, not from his wife."

And so to the theme of his aloneness [which we have not decided if it is alone or lonely have we...I am inclined to think lonely] marrying someone who does not share his culture would bring about even more isolation.

On this whole alone/lonely issue - Amir did seem to be very alone/lonely as a boy where as in America he decided to be his own person - He and Baba together walk through Lake Elizabeth Park in Fremont near their apartment - these are the kind of walks he dreamed of having with his father when he was a child. Amir comes to his father's aid in the grocery store which is a role reversal but more his father didn't come to his aid when he did not know how to handle the bully Assif even before the rape in the alley.

Amir says, "For me, America is a place to bury my memories. For Baba, a place to mourn his."

In America I thought the difference in their personalities was made clear when Baba took Amir for the drink and had made friends of everyone in the bar while Amir can only drink a quarter of one glass of beer to Baba's three full glasses - as a watery substance representing life - Baba can take in life in all its potential where as Amir can only take in life in small measurable sips.

Amir loved the vastness of one freeway after another leading to one city after another and one mountain beyond the next. I loved this when he say "America was a river, roaring along, unmindful of the past. I could wade into this river, let my sins drown to the bottom. let the waters carry me someplace far. Some place with no ghosts, no memories, and no sins. If for nothing else, for that, I embraced America."

And I thought how true and probably the basis of the idea of, "pick yourself up and dust yourself off" as the mantra for failure in America. America is not a place of tight tradition where your sins are with you always -

unless you are running for political office!!

Marni sees Baba as "big, physically, and in many things he does...He is powerful, a bear of a man. He has big ideas and can push things through to accomplishment, like the orphanage. He enjoys interacting with people in a big way, likes being surrounded by them, having fun with them, conversing with them entertaining them, being complimented by them. He likes being in the center of things wherever he is. He is very charismatic, whether in Afghanistan or in America. Wherever he is, people like him and honor him.

Baba is big in courage, sometimes to the point of being reckless, as when standing up against the Russian soldier to protect the women from rape. He risked his life (and perhaps other lives) for this action. Sometimes, you see he is the only one to be so courageous."

A good one to explore -- Marni shares "I see a parallel between Baba and Ali's relationship and that of Amir and Hassan...Baba and Ali played together as children...got into trouble together...Baba was the instigator...sound exactly Amir and Hassan...Baba refused to call Ali his friend. Amir refused to call Hassan his friend...Baba treated Ali at times in a fairly despicable manner, because of tradition towards Hazaras...Baba lived in his beautiful big house, and Ali lived in the mud hut in the back...I think Baba loved Ali. I think Amir loved Hassan."

I had a thought at the time I was reading your post Marni and stopped to review the childhood chapters as compared to the America chapters and something hit me - did any of you see the PBS special called The Manor House?

The biggest aha I remember was how it all seemed on the surface a beautiful life and a magnificently run house - it was a very traditional society where each had their place and certain manners were expected. This reminded me of the Afghanistan of Amir and Baba's youth - not similar manners but, an accepted traditional way that folks treated each other - little boys did not join adults in the dining room when the men were smoking and drinking their tea - servants lived in quarters on the property and had certain tasks that everyone knew what they were and regardless of what happened during the day the tasks were done - games were the same games played by generations of young boys...

With this traditional way of life there was isolation, a lack of intimacy - so much so that Miss Anson, Lady Olliff-Cooper's Sister had to leave the house for awhile because she was sinking into depression. The downstairs staff actually broke the rules and created intimate relationships to get through the lack of intimacy allowed in carrying out their jobs.

Sir John Olliff-Cooper like Baba thoroughly enjoyed his life and was a charming host who liked company, making and breaking rules [to the constination of the chef] an Edwardian prototype of Baba.

In the twenty-first century and in fact during the last half of the twentieth century our lives in the west changed to a less than traditional lifestyle and with that change there is less separation between folks - so much so that when we see the separation we call attention to it so that change can be made.

Is Afghanistan being changed and like the Dylan Thomas poem "Rage, rage against the dying of the light"...they are kicking and screaming into the twentieth century I wonder?

Fifi another non-squatter...

Joan suggests, "The reason we have such a low opinion of Amir is that he is constantly castigating himself. Remember, this is a man looking back, describing his actions as a child, and telling us over and over again how bad he was. Someone who wasn't racked with guilt would never give us this description: for example, would never even notice that he never called Hassan his friend or taught him how to read."

Your definition of an American in Israel was priceless Joan.

You also say, "didn't find the change in his relationship with Amir as believable. Suddenly, he is much closer to Amir. Now he must depend on Amir in many ways, but this seems to bring them closer, rather than causing tension. All this didn't ring true to me."

And than I rolled on the floor laughing - Watery Amir - let me start the next post with "Watery Amir"...

Marni "The whole repetitive theme of the lack of water, dryness, dustiness, includes barrenness"

Watery Amir - I laughed all day when I saw that heading - but the dichotomy between water and dry was another step wasn't it in looking at water. The sap of life as opposed to the dryness and static condition of dryness, barrenness or death -

Running water is living and the water of life - all water is the associated with birth, the universal womb, the fountain of life the first form of matter and the primordial state of purity...death to the old and rebirth into the new, but also the immersion of the soul in the manifest world -- and yes, where Amir is water and Baba drinks life with gusto - Soraya is barren or dry, she brings tea and bags peaches handed to her by her mother to give to Baba however, except of a small band of sweat on her forehead there is little water used to describe Soraya.

I love it that when Amir goes to chat with Soraya he says he is getting a couple of drinks and when Baba visits the General for Amir he wets his hair - Beginnings in this story all start with water...

Ginnyalso found the "change in his [Baba's] relationship with Amir as [un]believable. Suddenly, he is much closer to Amir. Now he must depend on Amir in many ways, but this seems to bring them closer, rather than causing tension. All this didn't ring true to me...this entire second section, to me, is ...so different.

Ginny also noted, "Baba to welfare, refusing to take it and preferring to work in the garage, and the General Sahib, who did take it because it was beneath him to work at a job less than his former status."

Persia suggests, she didn't think "the General thought of Welfare as being "more prestigious," but perhaps since it is a Government distribution and he was accustomed to being paid by the Afghan Government, he thought of it as government-sponsored and thus OK. Regardless of whether he accepted Welfare, I would NOT have expected him to work in any kind of menial job in the USA.

Kleo tells us, "Blood is Amir's roots to his tribe, what he cannot see, no matter how hard he looks, and water is Amir's roots to his mother, who is absent. Afghan men cry without shame. Shame is spilt blood, guilt is spilt or wasted water."

Traude reminds us of similarities to Col. Behrani in The House of Sand and Fog by Andre Dubus III and that "being an immigrant myself, I know the experience. It shook me a little, I confess, to discover that few people in the House of Sand and Fog discussion could muster any sympathy for Col. Behrani."

I did not join that conversation Traude nor read the book but, if it had something to do with being too proud to take government handouts - that I can recognize from the days of the depression and how often those who were proud would look down on those who did take the handouts and the embarrassment kids felt who were pushed ahead since they were cute to accept the handouts from church groups or the salvation army. Pride of believing in your own self-sufficiency runs deep in many people doesn't it.

colkot shares to her it was predictable and it was the immigrant experience. "It does not matter WHERE you come from, whether you think you speak the language or not..coming to America is a culture shock..you cannot imagine, unless you have lived it, how alien America can be for a foreigner. We cling to our customs and mores, find others who are like us until we become acclimatized."

In my own family it took three generations and WWII before English was our base language and the family started to become "American" but then who at the time wanted to be associated with Hitler - too bad because there is very little German influence left in this nation as compared to when I was a child. Then a good craftsmen was always thought to be the local German carpenter or mechanic. Now folks are almost ashamed to say their family came from Germany.

Marni thinks through how "They both had to start over in so many ways, why not with their relationship, as well, since they just had each other now?"

"Baba had little money and had to do demeaning things for a living in America, such as scramble for tag sale items to sell for a small profit. This seemed tragic for Baba because he no longer was such a big man in his community, although he still was greatly respected by fellow emigrés."

I'm not sure I can go with Demeaning Marni - I loved the scene where they return with the beatup old Van and laugh so hard the tears roll down their face - more water - more Beginnings - I thought Baba with his usual gusto takes on securing his economic future with the few resources he had available. I thought he was in his element at the market as he "sauntered down the aisle, hands respectfully pressed to his chest, greeting people he knew from Kabul" granted all he met are out of work but all are starting over having fled with a suitcase if they were lucky.

Even his Cancer - he makes the choice and sees to his responsibility for Amir before he takes care of his own death...

Kleo also makes the point "Baba was able to die with Amir established was important--it certainly would make passing more comfortable for anyone to know their children were secure."

"Amir married a white girl, as the author originally intended." two reasons for the wording Kleo - I had read an article where the author gave an interview and this was his expression - also we would typically have said as recently as 5 years ago WASP but that has become hackneyed and so folks who mean WASP now simply say white - white is not Caucasian, since Caucsian can be some darker tone skin like Italian or Persian, with a different culture than anglo-saxon therefore, it is not simply the opposite of Afghan, it is not American since we have so many cultures and races in America - a WASP is the best expression except that folks now replace that expression by simply saying White...

Kathyshares that the Deschutes Public Library System is having this book for their big book read from mid-Apr. to mid-May.

Mrs Sherlock interesting a great points - "Maybe Amir and Baba couldn't build a good relationship when Amir was so needy. Baba supplied all his material needs, but the emotional ones were beyond him. Hassan would have been incapable of making demands on Baba, so Baba's relationship there would be one-sided."

colkot yes it is so true isn't it - "the best thing is, as soon as you close your door you can be exactly WHO you are, speak your own language, practice your own religion ,eat your own kind of food...you can turn America off...As to our hero marrying "outside...it's not "comfortable" particularly as his father is still alive."

Persian brings up another wrinkle to white - religion - which goes to the WASP description doesn't it...

Traude reminds us that Baba brings a bit of his past with him by chunking a bit of Afghan soil in his pocket before he enters the fuel truck - his past with all the traditional values and structures in society.

Wow and leave it to you to bring us this wonderful tidbit -- "his wife's name is SorAya, as in Soraya Esfandiari, the second wife of The Shah of Iran whom he loved but reluctantly divorced because she too, like wife # 1, was unable to bear him a male heir." Great that you could help us with the pronunciation.

And so right - the pluses and then the minuses of a society where everyone is their own man so to speak - let's face it with our attitude toward welfare, handouts are still considered for the whimps in this society - and so I sure like this statement you made -- "America makes no special allowances for newcomers - either you buckle under and conform, or you fail."

Thought this tidbit was interesting - it speaks to the conclave of Afghans that do live in Fremont California. With Us or Against Us: Afghans in America [a 27 minute doc.]

I saw symbolism in the authors choice of saying a flourecent light on Baba's watch in the fuel truck - to make a long story short a florecsent light is the result of invisible ultraviolet light in the form of atoms going through a gas where as, incandescent lights all of the oxygen has been eliminated from the bulb.- fluorescent lights have a much longer life than incandescent lights - fluorescent lights produces light without heat.

Many light-emitting electronic devices emit infrared light which is produced by lasers but the author chose the word flourecent.

All in all to me, I saw Amir still looking to his father for light - knowledge, truth, the source of goodness, the power to dispel evil and the forces of darkness that are the symbolism for light.

Light is also connected with beginning and the end - Islamic symbolism says, the effulgent light of Allah who illumines the world; pure being; the heavens; air; the manifestation of Divine Knowledge, Majesty and Beauty, the Intellect, the Word, the Divine name Nur. the weaver of forms is the vehicle of light. The Koran says, "Allah is the Light of the Heavens and of the earth."

The cold [flourecent] light of truth rather than the warm [incandescent] light of emotion - this whole scene of entering and exiting the pitch black darkness of the fuel truck I thought was so like going through a birthing process. Amir looks to his father, no longer to fill his loneliness but, to provide direction that he can focus upon as he almost baptizes himself in his own sweat.

The author does not include the flight to America or their landing on American soil - only this scene of leaving and being transported in a dark, black, absent of all light, fuel truck.

Darkness is the powers of chaos the source of dualism - not evil, it is unmanifest light, pre-natal, transition between life and death, germination takes place in darkness and the Islamic symbolism for darkness is Indiscretion. [saying or doing things which let people know things that should be secret or which embarrass people]

Is this suggesting leaving Afghanistan and all the traditions of generations of Afghans is an act of indiscretion...?

hmmmm and Amir looks at the light without heat...while Baba holds in his pocket a handful of Afghan soil.

Thank you Barbara for that summary of everybody's points. I agree with Colkot that it's a very predictable story.

Kathy, that's really neato about the Deschutes Public Library System, I like their "A Novel Idea" theme. Where are you seeing the Reader's Guide for Kite Runner, I can't seem to find it on the site, thank you for that information. Wonder if they would be interested in getting up a dialogue with US?

I liked your link Barbara to a group of Afghans living in CA, very interesting, I wish I could have seen some of those productions.

I am seeing another theme enter the story, or has it been there all long: respect: " ihitram a matter of respect," on page 208. It seems to me that respect is almost another character in the book, going back again to the parallels between the General Sahib and Baba, a different concept of respect, I think the entire concept of "respect" and how it governs the various characters, here, is fascinating, myself.

I am wondering which is more at the root of Baba's and Amir's relationship: love or respect? Recall Baba's disappointment when Amir decides to be a writer, and Amir's reaction, he'll BE a writer so that he doesn't sacrifice himself any more or further damn himself. That entire relationship is quite interesting I think, and strongly noted, it's one of the stronger things in the book.

When you think of the Mafia, another immigrant group, and how it's portrayed on television (which is the only way most of us know of it or it) R*E*S*P*E*C*T is a big issue, but I'm wondering if the very nature of an outward show of respect, that is, it's conferred by others (or is it?) is in itself not worthy of respect? I'm not sure I'm making any sense here but it seems to me that it's kind of useless to try to win or live up to the respect of others, you don't know what standards they are applying? And what does it say about you that you insist on the trappings of respect?

How many sons just live to hear their fathers say they are proud of them or they love them? I guess we have to ask the question WAS Baba right about his son? I'm not sure that Amir is right that "I destroyed a forty year relationship between Baba and Ali." (page 165) in the paperback. There's something here that's eluding me, some things are being put on Amir that perhaps should belong elsewhere, I think this book has more depth than the predictable plot would indicate at first glance? What do you think?

Look at this one:

Listening to them, I realized how much of who I was, what I was, had been defined by Baba and the marks he had left on people's lives. My whole life, I had been "Baba's son." Now he was gone. Baba couldn't show me the way anymore; I'd have to find it on my own.

The thought of it terrified me.

(page 174, bottom, paperback)

It must be a hellish thing to be defined in your whole existence by another who is disappointed in you, but so tied up with that other that the thought of making your own way is terrifying. I'm not sure here what points we'd give Baba for parenting?

You have me thinking Ginny - my head is wrapping around this issue of respect - I think I have been using the word Tradition where you picked up on the idea of respect -

Reminds me of "Fiddler on the Roof" where life was arranged around a set and expected behavior that included the relationship between family members. I am remembering the scene where Tevye asks Golde if she loves him - it is easy to imagine this is a one couple situation but I think it was representative of most couples of their generation. They married within a tradition that included respect for each other and responsibility towards each other.

Their tradition is being ripped apart not only by forces outside of their village but when Tevye disowns his third daughter Chava because she marries Fyedka. We have to ask, is Tevye acting in faith or with prejudice or is it about change from tradition? I think he is really worried that if Tradition goes what happens to respect and responsibility to each other.

I'm seeing respect as the outward sign or vehicle used to hold a group together when the rule of law is based in the Code of Honor. I've been fascinated reading about the difference in the way people organize themselves within different systems. We are all dependent on a way to handle behavior so that there is some predictability in what to expect from another, allowing individuals to get on with other aspects of life rather than eyeing each other all day wondering how everyone is going to behave or act.

I can see that in an authoritarian system folks must please the king if the king holds the authority over his people that includes favors and punishment. In a Democracy all that is spread out among many people and I guess that really brings home a better understanding of living in a patriarchal system where the man has the power and authority. For years I was on a tear to learn all I could about power and those who sought power.

I must say though, I made the leap that if you were seeking power you were really seeking to have power over others and would do what it took to have the power to control everyone. But setting that aside it seems to me if the power to favor or punish is wrapped up in a Code that does not include the kind of legal process we assume to provide impartial treatment of people, than rules of conduct have to be dependent on being subservient to the power source or rule maker and therefore, seems to me a ritualized system of respect would come into the picture.

Hmmm thinking outloud here - but I'm thinking that as we train our children to obey the law, children in a different system must learn the norms of that system and a loving parent would teach the child those norms - hmmm maybe Baba did Amir a favor teaching him the norms of the society appropriate to live in Afghanistan before the Russians and then the Taliban became the power to reckon with...

Certainly Rahim being hit on the forehead with the butt of a rifle because he was acting as he would before the Taliban would be an example of a change in the norm as well as a change in the authority or power structure. There would be less security on anyone's part as to how to go about their day accomplishing more than figuring out how to stay safe wondering how everyone is going to behave or act.

In a traditional society I guess it would feel lonely and take great courage to live differently. Thinking on it there must be a feeling of peril to embark on the road of independence if you have not received an "A" in pleasing the figure head or authority. No wonder he likes a place that was like a river roaring along unmindful of the past.

Perhaps combining the two words - tradition and respect = traditional respect (or even more clearly cultural respect) would bring the idea of Afghan custom on this topic into a clearer frame.

Certainly the comparison with Tevye's behavior is a good example, although in a different cultural context. I've watched that movie so many times, I think I know all the lines for each character! I cannot imagine that once the family relocated to America, they would have changed their behavior within the family very much. The lack of recognition - the traditional respect - towards Tevye's previous community reputation might be lessened in America, but NOT within the family.

Amir's sense that he is taking care of BABA in America is common, but there is still the traditional respect. Although Amir chooses his own field of study and continues his writing, he counter balances that with what BABA needs, what he will and won't accept.

In an earlier post someone mentioned the outcome of what would have happened to Amir if he'd married a non-Afghan. I've known many American women who have married foreign men, and a few foreign women who have married American men. In my personal experience, among the couples where the woman is Asian, there has continued to be a very strong traditional Asian influence in the household, towards the spouse, and especially towards the children.

When the wife is American, the themes of crisis in the marriage (and family) usually revolve around the "freedom" known and basically taken for granted by the American, while the non-American spouse tends to be more reserved. I've often talked with American women (whose husbands are from the Middle East or Central Asia) and they invariably claim that their husbands are "too possessive," "ask too many questions," or "monitor their movement too strongly."

From the American husband's standpoint, I've heard complaints that "my wife is too secretive - I know SOMETHING is going on, but I just don't know what." Then, invariably, the wife's parents, siblings, cousins, etc. show up in the USA for a visit and never want to leave, thus placing a legal obligation on the American husband.

From my own personal standpoint, respect of one's traditions and customs, whether religious, family or ethnicity need to be blended so that both are reasonably happy. There are times when I'm definitely an American with a French/Irish frame of mind and will NOT put up with any "Egyptian nonsense" from my husband. And there are other times when my Persian heritage surfaces and I'm much more willing to adapt to the Middle Eastern customs - especially in times of crisis or family illness. However, when my son (a Special Forces Army Chaplain preparing for his third deployment) is involved, I am AMERICAN to the bone with no room for negotiating or argument. And in those times, the joke in our family is "better watch out - Mom looks like she's going to get her 'throwing knives' out."

Persia the knife thower ~ hehehahahaaa

"With this traditional way of life there was isolation, a lack of intimacy ..."

Barbara--you ask if Afghans are tending towards this. With Afghan traditional culture inside the home in America there is no lack of intimacy due to the culture. Of course, Afghans, like others can feel isolated amongst people.

"Soraya" is pronounced SuROYuh. It is a fairly common women's name in Afghanistan--it may be pronounced differently in Iran. I know Afghan Pashtuns and Tajiks named Soroya. The author's transliterations of Afghan words are unfamiliar to me, and do not reflect how the words are pronounced. He uses, for example, 'nika.' This would make the word Neekuh, or nikuh with a short 'i' sound. It is, however, pronounced Ne-kaw. (The Muslim marriage.)

As to her being barren. Water does more than give birth, it also washes over the rough edges of a rock and smooths it, depositing sand on the beach, bringing soil and nutrients to the fertile valleys where food is grown. This is what Amir is lacking in his life as a child, and this is what Soraya gives to Amir and his father. Women do more than give birth literally, they figuratively give life to human existence.

I just used the dictionary definition, Barbara, white for Caucasian. So, then, what does Protestant have to do with the author's choice of an alternate bride? Like Traude, I've found nothing about this in the book so far.

I think that it would have been clearer for me for you to include the author's quote as his use of 'white' as a second-language speaker may not be standard. WASP may also be a regional interpretation with which you are familiar, although it is not used like this in my area.

The Afghans I know who married outside of their culture have married Irish-American, Colombian immigrant or French Catholics.

Traude--yes, I would advise an American woman (including an Afghan-American) from marrying into Pashtun culture, or Afghan culture, without some serious insights.

Ginny, I think you are discussing something I brought up earlier when you ask if Amir really destroyed Baba's relationship with Ali--although not in relation to this particular quote. Baba would have found out about the rape, before driving Ali and Hassan to the airport. Baba chose his son's dishonesty over Ali's family's honor. Baba destroyed the relationship with Ali, not Amir. Amir spends so much time blaming himself for everything, it seems to me, as an excuse to deny what he really should own. I still have quite a bit of sympathy for Amir, to grow up sensitive, unnourished for it, in a culture which does not readily accept it. For good reason or not.

Kleo

I think, Mahlia, that blending does something important: it acknowledges the contribution of both cultures. I will spend my life hanging out with Afghan Muslims, but I do so as an American Catholic. I sit quietly while they pray, they pay their respects to me formally when the Pope passes. We go to dinner on Thursdays during Ramadan, and visit on Edes. They give us Christmas presents and dye eggs with us on Easter. When it falls during Ramadan we nix the ham, and serve it later to accommodate Muslims dropping in. In history classes all the kids ask me about the history of the Missions in California, and I provide their parents for my students during 'interview a Muslim' time. Lol

Life is good with so many interesting people to share it with.

Kleo

Kleo WASP was a national expression that came out of I think the 60s and used as a slang way of describing a White-Anglo-Saxon-Protestant which was the majority in this nation until sometime around the Civil Rights era when the face of the nation was accepting that we had other races and creeds that participated in this Democracy. Most business for the first time had to take training and post signs that there was no discrimination by race or religion and in order to define the kind of thinking that exited the expression WASP was bandied about like confetti in our language and in the media.

WASP and now its replacement White means more than race - it is wrapped up in culture and religion but mostly culture - and so for instance an Italian Catholic would not fit the profile of a WASP not only because of skin color [although Caucasian] and religion but their cultural way of life is more "tribe" like rather than the conservative approach of a WASP. For years the better known collages in the Northeast were the home to most WASPs but that has changed in the last 35 years.

And so this is a bit of US culture since the 60s and 70s that describes a certain type of "white" or Caucasian person and unless you have a dictionary that includes slang you are better off looking this stuff up on the internet.

Kleo from what you have shared about not being that familiar with the expression leads me to think you are a recent immigrant and here I thought you were born here - when did you arrive and from what country were you living before you did arrive - I know Traude is from Europe, I believe Germany and it sounds like colkot was also not born in the US - this to me is exciting and fascinating to hear how folks have the courage to pick up and move around the world - we have friends who have recently moved to Singapore because he is with Dell Computer and another friend who only came back from living 5 years in China but neither of these families are looking to relocate permanently where it sounds like your family made just that decision.

A: I think it was Ginny who asked: what points we'd give Baba for parenting? In my experience, men who come to America from whatever country they left under difficult circumstances do not even comprehend the word: parenting. Each of those men puts food on the table, and expects, in many cases to be supported by his children if ever he cannot make a living. This is not exclusive to immigrants from any single country. These men may see themselves as wage-earners and/or sources to retain their culture, but the kids are just supposed to shut up and behave. Parenting, to such people, is an American concept and a luxury.

B. The two sections of the book do not fit together. I agree, and have a theory:
The author is trying not to write about his own life, but to write fiction. However, that is a difficult task.
We recall that the author went to medical school, which someone would have had to pay for and to approve. In contrast, Amir struggled to be a writer, taking menial jobs, in some years, in order to grab time to write.
So in writing about the rosy, successful, up scale side of life in America, for a boy who was raised in a different culture, the author let some sort of disconnect occur. This could very well apply to any emigrant (not just from Afghanistan) who suddenly found that he/she was the first person in the family to obtain higher education.
My own family's experience comes to mind, but is too off-subject to elaborate.

In our book, Baba is unhappy, just as I've seen with the elders who came to American, and cannot or choose not to praise the youngsters who become Americanized and who obtain educations above and beyond their expectations in the old country.

Interesting Mippy that you notice many men who immigrate bring with them a limited interest in parenting as we in the US consider a father's role in raising his children.

The only part I am not familiar with and I am sure you have observed, is the concept of a parent feeling unhappy because the children have achieved more education - in the immigrant experience I know about both in my own family and the Mexican American families here in Austin there is this drive that each generation should do better and have more education then the previous generation so that there is great pride and celebration during graduation ceremonies.

But then it is true with the increased education some of the traditional ways that held the family together are either ignored or challenged. I am sure that makes some parents feel a bit lonely as if they lost their children rather than their children just becoming more...

Barbara-

What I am not familiar with is the use of 'white' to mean 'WASP.'

"I just used the dictionary definition, Barbara, white for Caucasian.... WASP may also be a regional interpretation with which you are familiar, although it is not used like this in my area. "

So, I did run through a few dictionary definitions. White can be for skin color or race, as in people of European decent or Northern Europeans or people with light skin or Caucasian race. None of the definitions I looked at, half a dozen on-line, include WASP as a synonym for white. (OneLook, Merriam-Webster, Encarta, American Heritage, Cambridge, etc.)

I would say that not being familiar with a single expression in English, Barbara, a usage that is not standard dictionary usage, is not necessarily an indication that someone is a recent immigrant. Regional variations exist in usage. If someone is not certain whether their usage is standard or regional, an easy way to find out is to look through some on-line dictionaries. If one cannot find it in five major dictionaries, the expression might be limited in its usage. I cannot draw any broad conclusions about your ancestry, or the arrival date of your ancestors, however, from your using a regional expression that I am unfamiliar with.

There are many wonderful people who have recently come to America. I love being an American and would be proud to be considered a recent immigrant and love deeply all of my family whom I might never have known had they never come to America. So, thank you for the compliment of thinking me a recent immigrant.

Kleo

OK kleo here are a couple of links for you Definition of WASP and then this is a pretty good article further explaining Early example of the WASP culture and finally this great article Steve Martin play about WASPs in the golden age of the 1950s as you can see Kleo this is not regional and the first link is a dictionary...

Hmmm I wonder if it has something to do with when your dictionary was published - I have a 1982 college edition of "The American Heritage Dictionary" and WASP is included in it - on page 1365

Barbara, maybe you and I share a similar educational experioence. You talk about analyzing those who crave power, and you define white as Wasp. Could you by any chance be sociologist? That's my background, and I recognize in your writings a kind of analysis which is looking at, not culture, society. There seems to be more than one "track" here. I hardly ever hear Wasp any more, though it was quite popular in some circles in the 60's and 70's if you were working on a liberal arts degree. I suspect that those folks in other disciplines have forgotten all about it.

not unless you are in Real Estate - hehehe No, I have a business degree but was heavy into group dynamics and Girls Scouting - was the board chairman for training and trained not only here in my area but on a regional, national and one time in Canada -

I have had a strong concern for sharing the power among those who were not until recently considered stakeholders in the race for power - and having lived with the affects of the imbalance of power where power was control over gender in my family it became a drive for me to sort it all out and understand. This is why to this day I am still involved with the National Issues Forum and other activities that promote dialogue towards understanding.

But with a Broadway Play about the issues included in the WASP culture I am having a hard time imagining how it could be forgotten - to me it would be almost like forgetting the expression hillbilly. ah so - all our memories are selective aren't they...hehehe folks just have to watch more of Saturday Night Live

BARBARA, KLEO,

In my earlier post I capitalized the "a" in the protagonist's name because that is the spelling of the name in the book.

Some posters changed it to "Soroya" (with an "o").

True, spelling is not always the first thing on people's mind; typos do bedevil most of us, but in this case I wanted to make clear how the name is spelled in the book, because that is what counts.

You may remember that KEVIN recently remarked on the very same thing: namely the "alternative" spelling of the name "Assef". It was inconsistent with the book, and hence a misspelling.

thanks Traude - we read so much because of this book it is so easy to make changes based on what we read.

And talk about reading - do y'all remember the newspaper articles about the mangy lion in Kabul that is mentioned in the book? Its name was Marjan...includes a photo of the real Marjan...

Just out of curiosity - can any of you imagine having Amir as a son-in-law? Or BABA as a husband?

Barbara---

You used the word WHITE, a very general word, not the word WASP. You keep defining WASP. But it is NOT the word you used in the discussion point. You used the word WHITE:

5. Had Amir married a WHITE girl, as the author originally intended would that change the story? Are the plot and subplots believable? Are they interesting?

It is very difficult to understand what you are talking about when you use one word, then define a different word when asked what the word you used means. White is very vague and can have many meanings as Traude also pointed out. WASP is a very specific word. However, it is not the word you use in #5.

Which word do you mean to use in #5?

Kleo

Mahlia--

Well, no. I do have relatives like both of them. I can't imagine being married to a Muslim, and being Muslim, in spite of being less than devout, is important to both of them.

Kleo

I'd be more concerned with BABA being a Pashtun than a Muslim.

By the way, my good news for today is that I just learned my son's scheduled deployment to Africa has been cancelled. I can breathe a bit more easily now.

Yes, Traude, that is what I thought you were posting, the correct spelling of Soraya, not its pronunciation. Afghan spellings are all over the place. I tend not to have the book by my side when I make posts, so I do appreciate your calling attention to the spelling.

Kleo

Ah, Mahlia, good point. The religion would eliminate him first, but it is legitimate to ask about the culture solely, particularly in this case. Pashtunwali is not something that is designed to be accepting of outsiders. Having been fortunate to live in a world where I am welcome in various cultures, I can see the very real disadvantages of this, the Pashtun culture being dominate in all things.

Living in a family where interfaith marriages are not uncommon, though, I think personally of this first. It's hard on the family to have children who are not of your religion. Muslims, like Catholics that I know, tend to become rather religious with age. One parent will lose in an interfaith marriage.

I can't really put myself in the position of marrying a Pashtun. Can you, Mahlia?

Kleo

I've been pretty fortunate to know several interfaith families who, like my own, managed to share and blend multiple belief systems, customs, holidays, and respect for all within their families. The children whom I know are "God's children" - "Believers" or "Children of Abraham," and speak intelligently about their family's background, the values and respect for others taught to them by their parents, and grandparents. And there have been many wonderful discussions!

As for marrying a Pashtun, I'd probably take my own advice: don't do it.

Kleo this is one time when I really wish we could hear each other - imagine please, my voice is soft and caring -- today many, if not most people who discuss the social impact of cultural norms in this nation use the word White to describe WASP -

For instance, Charlie Rose used the word a couple of weeks ago when he was chatting with a group of movie people. This word is a change in how we have shortened so many words but most of all, the word was chosen for the heading because it was the word used by the author in an interview - I will see if I can find an on-line version of that interview. I have found this similar question used be several on-line booknotes or whatever you will call them, that have a series of questions about this book for consideration while reading.

The question includes the word "White." which gives us the image of a white women who is very opposite the look and family background of a darker skinned Caucasian women -

I can understand why saying a non-Afghan women is not going to work since that leaves the door opened for all sorts of possibilities - the issue of saying White is as I say an issue that like a rorschach test brings to the mind of most folks a set of characteristics in today's culture that are very different than simply saying an American women -

Kleo, if you are not hearing this word used in your area it could even be because you had not looked for it since it is only an issue as we look at the very opposite type women from a Pashtun or Persian or even an Arabian or bottom line Muslim women. The word is truly an example of the off center political incorrect [or correct according to how liberal you are] humor on Saturday Night Live.

Since this word is used elsewhere when questions were offered that helped folks discuss the book it seems appropriate to use here - if you are uncomfortable answering the question than skip it - honestly - it is fine - if anything it could be considered a slam against the "White" women of the world - many of us have looked deep into our own character and find that we do have some of the classic examples of the thinking and therefore, behavior of a "White" women and by reading this novel, as well as many other novels that introduce us to the wider cultural world, we learn there is no one way to live or a best way to live.

So please Peace - it may be you are being exposed to this new way of describing a certain type of Caucasian in this country and if so smile - we all learn many things when we enter these discussions and one of them is that we can talk to each other regardless our backgrounds. I know if you heard me talk there are many words you would ask me to repeat - I have had that happen to me when I visit back east - and we use certain words as a matter of every day conversation that are different - but this word is used on national TV and in nationally known publications -

I believe the first time I read the shortcut for WASP as White and understood what they were getting at was in the Atlantic Monthly Journal. Since my subscription ran out and I stopped receiving the magazine over a year ago I would have had to have read the article that used the word well over a year ago. Please, love and peace...there is no offence to you by using a newer version of a word created in the 1960s especially since it is being used else ware on the internet when questions are raised about this book.

Ginny - a friend sent me a copy of the reader's guide. I will make a copy of it for you and put it in the mail. It is really a good guide.

Kathy

Thank you Kathy, are they asking anything on these first two segments we have not?

GINNY, BN's write-up of "The Kite Runner" contains a list of nineteen questions as a guide for group discussions (last item, blue sidebar on right).

Barbara,
Thanks for commenting on my post on parenting. There were about 20 posts between yours and mine, but I'm sure you recall it.
The following is off-subject, so skip ahead if you only want discussion of the Kite Runner.

The point about education was about a disconnect between girls and boys, which occurred in my family; to clarify, I'm second generation American, with grandparents from Russia, Lithuania, and Poland.
Boys were and always had been encouraged to obtain higher education. Especially medical school.
Girls were supposed to stay home and have lots of children.
When I managed not only to get all the way through college, but then later to get an advanced degree, the men and elders of my family were not supportive. They asked how I could raise my children if I had my nose buried in a book. Doesn't that make your hair stand on end?

MIPPY - let me expand your story a bit by mentioning a friend and for many years a good colleague of mine: a Jewish woman from Texas who married, raised 5 children (a Rabbi among them), obtained her Ph.D., taught at the university level for many years, was promoted to Professor before becoming a dept. level administrator (Chair of a large humanities dept.), then Provost of a College and, finally, the President of TWO major universities. I remember her particularly, not only as friend and colleague, but for her comment that the only way should could have understood how to manage a large academic department, college and finally two universities while continuing to teach was through her previous experience in raising children, monitoring their academic and extracurricular activities, being a soccer Mom, volunteering at their schools, and doing community service. Her husband and parents were supportive of her through all her undertakings and tremendously proud of her achievements.

And within the community which we've been discussing, I've also known Afghan women (mostly in Washington DC) who have been committed to their families - spouse and children, parents, siblings, cousins, etc., - while continuing with college and advanced degrees, then undertaking a professional career in diverse fields and becoming very successful.

BRAVO for your efforts! Or as we Persians say "xeyli xub!" (very good).

This is sort of off the subject, but I was watching the Mambo Kings last night and was reminded of "Babalu," the famous Desi Arnaz number, isn't this the book that mentions that, as a devil or something? I thought that was interesting, if that's the same thing, it's definitely got to be some kind of crossover, I'd like to know how it spread to so many disparate countries.

I also thought it was fascinating to learn that in Kabul they knocked down interior walls so they could move about while under fire, I have always wondered how people in these beseiged towns manage, that's quite ingenious.

Another theme that I seem to see developing is a quest for ...what? "A way to be good again." That's what apparently drew Amir back, Rahin Khan on the bottom of page 192, says, "Come. There is a way to be good again." Would you call that redemption? That would draw anybody, or would it?

Like "Restore" on a computer, a way to turn back the clock and be "good, again." Here Rahim Khan reveals he has a lot of knowledge, Amir says he always knew. I wonder how, who told him?

We see Rahim Khan's words, "There is a way to be good again" on the second page of the book. Those words grabbed me right away. It certainly seems like he is telling Amir there is a way to redeem himself.

Rahim Khan is such an interesting important character. He is everyone's confidante. He has personal attributes that allow the others to tell him their problems or feelings. He is very wise and understanding. He knows when to say the right thing. He understands Amir even when Amir cannot bring himself to confide to Rahim his sins towards Hassan. Rahim Khan knows the guilt and shame Amir lives with and knows how he suffers. I can't forget the image of Amir in the photo as a baby, in his father's arms, his father with a "grim" look on his face, and Amir is holding onto Rahim Khan's finger.

This week we examine the quest that Marni and Ginny consider - "There is a way to be good again" --

New Questions to consider in the heading as we are brought to our knees with new revelations in the saga of Amir...

Mippy you bring up how being a girl was considered as someone whose advanced education could bring a limited honor and advancement to an immigrant family - what was the song - Sadie, Sadie married lady...isn't it nice to be able to look back on those days rather than still living them...as Mahlia suggests our lives as homemakers may have prepared us for greater things but without the education there was not a lot of forward movement was there...

Sorry but I'm playing ketchup (what a mess). Just finishing Section II (well, I'm on p. 200) small thanks to a busy stretch, but I hope to catch up with the pack this coming week.

Baba dies like a man's man, for sure. And has a man's attitude toward doctors. I remember, in reading the Russians of the Golden Era, how different their take on doctors was to ours. We revere and overpay them. We consider them sages and miracle workers. We run to them when trouble (and sickness) comes our way.

But the Russians of Gogol's, Tolstoy's, Turgenev's, Lermontov's, Dostoevski's, Pushkin's day made fun of them (or feared them as quacks with a socially-accepted weapon -- whatever they carved you with).

Baba has a bit of that old world sensibility about doctors. They bury their mistakes, he seems to be thinking, but Amir prevails and gets him to go. I like how Baba refuses the morphine on his last night and lies about there being no pain on that his final eve on Earth.

Kevin I cannot decide, what do you think, is Baba brave or macho. Whatever, with his death part of history dies and like Afghanistan itself, the old Afghanistan dies when like Cancer the Taliban takes over.

These next chapters really give the sense of dust and decay all covered in blood...not really a revolution...more like a slow death without chemo or morphine.

I do not remember my history well enough to remember how China came out of its years of youth controlled terror but, the nation did take itself by the hand and turn itself into an economic powerhouse - I think with our help after Nixon's visited - Except for the growth in poppies we do not hear of a turn-around in the economic growth of Afghanistan and the President only has control in Kabul.

I'm reminded of the PBS special where a young women reporter was asked by Karzia to come back and help - she does, donning the clothing typical of a man and tries to help a small village rebuild. The fight she had on her hands just to get rocks from the land used to build the houses was unbelievable as the warlord in the area takes everything for himself including the innocent man's business who had been supplying the material for folks to build. That special helped us see how there is not a national focus but, like the game buzkashi, it is one pall mall rush to grab what you can for yourself.

This independent macho like attitude so reminds me of Baba - he evidently took for himself giving him a son he could not acknowledge. It appears like in all of history someone like an Assef can exploit that independent macho community - South America have had their share of exploiters as did Germany, all places where the cultural mindset is based in a independent patriarchal macho way of measuring a man's worth.

I wonder if this author is suggesting the answer is honesty - after Asim acknowledges his relationship with Sohrab to Farid the relationship changes to respect towards Asim on the part of Farid. Is this the author's message do you think - honesty before pride...!

I love this - maybe because of the ages of the boys - Shooting Sling Shots

Thanks for the new questions, Barbara. I'm going to jump down to #8.

When Amir's lip is split from Assef's beating and from the resulting surgery, Amir then has a scar. Of course, you compare him to Hassan with the harelip and resulting scar after his surgery.

I feel that Amir is almost becoming Hassan.

Rahim Khan had it all figured out. He has led Amir to the means of becoming good again by finding/saving Sohrab. This path to redemption allows Amir the chance to relive the past event which has been haunting him - the missed chance to help Hassan fight the evil Assef. Now Amir takes Assef on. He stands up to him. But, then, he doesn't put up much of a fight once Assef begins to beat him up. He allows Assef to continue punching him with his brass knuckles. Amir would have allowed Assef to kill him (willingly, it seems, to pay for the past sins?) except that Sohrab, like his father, the brave little warrior, destroys the monster.

It's almost like this time around Hassan (through Sohrab) and Amir take on Assef together. And they win. This is one form of redemption for Amir.

Back to the lip. It's like Amir is becoming Hassan. He is beginning to resemble him physically. He has become brave like Hassan, indeed standing up to the monster. And he begins to take on the responsibility of fatherhood, like Hassan, taking over the care of Hassan's son.

Somewhere in this section of the book, after Amir finds out Hassan is his half-brother, Amir says something like he and Hassan are two halves out of their father. Are the two halves becoming one whole now?

hmmm Marni your post has me thinking - yes, redemption but, I also see trust having been, for the first time, established - when you think of it, back when they were kids did Amir even think that if they were beating up on him, Hassan would have taken them out with his sling shot - that twist said to me that maybe part of Amir's feeling isolated during his youth was because he was waiting for something from everyone else but he did not have complete trust in anyone to just let himself go and as we say "Trust in the Lord," much less trust that others would care about him enough to protect him.

He wanted this and wanted that - he wanted exclusive time with Baba - he wanted to go to the Lake alone with Baba - he wanted to win the Kite tournament - he wanted to play with Hassan but on his terms.

That is a lot of wanting which is nothing more than the desire to control - if you are controlling you are not into trusting that the world is safe and whatever happens there is a benign Higher Power interacting in your life, guarding and guiding you towards a long-term good.

It takes energy to keep secrets and that energy may have been kept vital when Baba and Rahim, both in on the secret, spent time talking and drinking tea behind closed doors which made Asim feel excluded. His sense of being excluded was right on since his father was not complete, open and candid with him and so Amir grows up not trusting anyone. He didn't even have anyone he could trust to share what happened in that Alley.

I could even take this further - when he marries he has a friend and lover but who is barren - something missing - almost like re-creating a relationship with a missing piece like his relationship with Baba and Rahim where trust was the missing piece. But then Amir himself did not trust - he did not trust Hassan to be there for him as an equal - only as a martyr like the lamb during slaughter - certainly not like a David that we know from our Judo-Christian culture.

And so as Amir takes on the characteristics of Hassan I think he also takes on the mantle of trust that Hassan had to adopt in order to navigate the world of being a no account servant.

Barbara: Re your comment: "...when you think of it back when they were kids did Amir even think that if they were beating up on him Hassan would have taken them out with his sling shot..."

I absolutely DO think Amir thought Hassan would have used his sling shot to protect him. The big example was when Assef, with his two pals, were stalking Amir and Hassan. Hassan took out his sling shot and threatened Assef if he didn't leave them alone. He said something like..."You'll be called ONE-EYED ASSEF..."

This was a key thing. Hassan had threatened to take out Assef's eye, but didn't have to. Hassan's son, Sohrab, actually did take out Assef's eye.

Yes, you are right - hmmm I still do not see Amir trusting - I could be wrong but to me if Amir thought that they both together had a chance he would have gone for it just as he went for the Kite tournament knowing that Hassan was a superior Kite Runner - OK need to re-read and see why I am sensing this or am I projecting something here into the story

Barbara: Just to elaborate a bit...

I think Amir trusted a number of people including Hassan, Baba, Rahmir Khan, and Ali. I never saw that he did not trust them until Rhamir Khan revealed the lie.

With Hassan, he trusted that Hassan would do just about anything for him. He even teased Hassan to see how far he could get him to go. I saw an analogy to Buck in Call of the Wild, how the dog would have jumped off the cliff for his master.

I think Hassan died protecting Amir, in a sense. He was protecting Amir's house. I thought this was very important. Hassan had not stood up for his own wife when the Taliban member hit her and bruised her leg. Hassan had bitterly said he couldn't do anything because he might be killed and so leave his son and wife without him. But when it came to Amir, Hassan spoke up against the Taliban thugs to protect Amir's property. That shows you how he felt about Amir. And I think Amir knew it. I think that was one of the reasons he felt so guilty and ashamed of his behavior towards Hassan.

I think Amir trusted Baba. That was one of reasons he was so horrified when he found out about his half-brother. He had trusted Baba and Rhamir Khan and they had lied to him.

Whoops we are posting at the same time - will read your post and see if I can sort this out --

OK this is like the children's song -- "There was an old lady who swallowed a spider, that wiggled and wiggled and tickled inside her. She swallowed the spider to catch the fly. I don't know why she swallowed the fly. I guess she'll die." --

There was a young boy who thought he was a coward because his father shared with one of the boy's surrogate parents that he thought the boy had something missing, in affect saying he was a coward and not a winner.

I ask why - the only evidence that Amir had to this truth was that his father said so and he had interests that were different than most other boys, interests that he pursued without any support from his father. He also felt he did not receive enough attention or was he feeling he was not approved of and therefore, not worthy of his father's attention and rather than face that reality he simply longed for his father's attention. Brave boys don't long for attention. And so Amir had convinced himself that he was not courageous. He could not measure up to what a boy 'should be' as depicted by his father.

As to the father - he has a son he cannot acknowledge - the son is a fine young man who closer exemplifies his idea of what a boy should be. He needs the son who he can acknowledge to be as good or even better - Amir no longer is simply a son to love but he is the one that has become the thorn that he wants this son to prove to the world his worth just as he makes so many friends. I see his friend making not only as part of his character but also it keeps people busy being his friend and not having an excuse to examine Baba as they would if they didn't like him - because with examination the truth could slip out.

That relationship then like the cat, bird, spider and fly is the basis for choices made by Baba and Amir. And so I am still not sure if Amir acted or didn't act because of believed cowardness on his part or because regardless of evidence he believed he was alone and no one would come to his aid.

Yes, I see what you are saying Marni, that he should have known better but I am also weighing these other factors and I still wonder. hmmm I just thought of something - I do not see that Amir had many choices growing up - he had to either prove his father right or wrong about him in order to get his attention which would mean his love. I think my concern is that his cowardness did not emanate from him but rather it was something the one he loved believed and he was caught trying to accept or disprove the charge.

When Amir approached the alley he was scared - there was no one whispering much less any belief in himself that he could be brave and save Hassan without being beaten. At that point in his life Hassan did not mean as much to him as Sohrab does. And so I am having a hard time seeing this as his act of cowardness - not that he didn't act the coward but it was almost as if he was set up to be a coward.

hmmm was he his father's lamb to be slaughtered...? Something here about the sins of the father and if Asim was or was not a coward or if Amir did or, did not trust, regardless of evidence that he could trust - I guess I put in this equation that he did not trust Rahim with what happened in the alley and yet, Rahim had supported him in his different interests with books, even giving him a writing book.

Just wrestling with all this and I am sure it is my seeing trust as an issue - maybe it is the simple story that does not take into considerations issues around family secrets and how the individual members of a family cope not only with the secret but how they behave while the secret is effecting their lives.

heheheh maybe this is a time when we each get a different view on this story and I should leave it at that - OK Marni for now I am struggling but I think I am on another path here - hope you're OK with that - but I will look further and see what is really in the story and what I am projecting into the story.

Yes Amir trusted Baba - in fact he had a certain amount of trust for all of them - but to me, not fully because he did not share with anyone what happened - in fact he did not share earlier what happened the first time Assef gave them a difficult time.

There are no heart to heart discussions between Amir and either his father or Rahim but there was a feeling he could talk freely with Ali. Of course he couldn't talk to Ali since it was his son he abandoned but if there was a good relationship that to me is built on trust between Amir and either his father or Rahim he should have been able to run home and either get help or let them know he failed. He ended up keeping the cycle of secrets alive in the family.

Yes, you say it as it is that the other characters offer their trust to Amir - and I agree Hassan died protecting Amir and Amir knew that - which is why he felt humbled by Hassan and more so wanted to acknowledge him as his brother -- but I see him as reserved and wanting to control events so that to me he does not have full trust for them - not so much in them but from himself he does not fully trust - and to me I see reasons for that.

As I say I may be reading more into all this - of course you can tell this is an issue that I struggle with trying to understand - yep,, come from a family of secrets...tra la la...and so it is clouding my view of what I am reading here and I am trying to be true to the story as written...ah so...as I said maybe we are at the point in this story where we are each getting something else from the story because of what life experiences we bring to our reading...

OK - the book is making more of an issue over his cowardness during the alley scene - I have to own that - personally I do not see that scene as a direct line to the soul if you would of Amir but in reaction to his life experiences - what I do see that is despicable and him using control to make what is uncomfortable go away is when he planted the money in Hassan's mattress.

The book seems to dismiss this by showing the opposite when Amir [been having a time today spelling this simple name correctly] any how when Amir leaves money with the family he spends the night with on his way back to Kabul - that to me was not enough of a redeeming act but then I must remember that Islam says you can only do good acts and Allah may or may not like what you do.

And so being good again hmmm is that a redemptive act or is it turning back the clock and acting with your better nature because you are now free of secrets, free of a fantasy views of a father's character, no longer wanting, striving for attention, therefore, Amir can be who he really is?? The critiques have said redemption but I wonder and now I am confused...because to me Amir setting up Hassan was the worst sin.

Interesting, Barbara!

I must say, at this point in my thinking I don't agree with your comment, "At that point in his life Hassan did not mean as much to him as Sohrab does."

I think Amir and Hassan were very much like brothers at that point, whether Amir admitted or not. I keep going back to the words in the book. I think Chapter One is extremely important. It sets the stage for everything.

In the very first paragraph of the first chapter, Amir says, "I BECAME WHAT I AM TODAY at the age of twelve, on a frigid overcast day in the winter of 1975. I remember the precise moment, crouching behind a crumbling mud wall, peeking into the alley near the frozen creek.....Looking back now, I realize I have been peeking into that deserted alley for the last twenty-six years."

That day in the alley, when Hassan was raped and Amir hid from view and watched, was the defining moment of Amir's life.

Yes, he had issues because of his father's treatment, etc. Whatever the reasons he was what he was, at that moment in his life Amir was a coward. And his servant, his friend, his brother suffered terribly. Amir hated himself for it...so much so that he could tell no one about it, not even those he trusted.

I love this conversation, Barbara! Yes, we all have our own ideas and that makes it fun. It will be interesting to see others' thoughts.

WOW I really must review and go back to the beginning - for me this time it is hard to accept the author's thesis but you are so right - the author is saying that was his defining moment - whooowph as you can read I have a difficult time with that and think Amir is being to hard on himself - I want to tell him to get thee to therapy or an adult child 12 step meeting hehehehe - own what is his - evidently he owns how he acted as his and the feelings I can imagine that he had were truly overwhelming much more overwhelming than the feeling of being sneaky in order to lay a despicable trap. Hehehehe here I go again...

Yes, it will be great to hear others weigh in - talk about unraveling where your values lie. And thank you for the chat - grand - simply grand - gotta go now and get something done around here...

Well it is not a question in the heading but it still bugs me - why I wonder did the author choose that Assef be a German - that still puzzles me - I have searched and searched in Afghan history thinking I could find something there but the relationship between Germany and Afghanistan seems to have been cordial - unless we are looking at this character as a stereo type of brutality but then that makes me uncomfortable - why an outsider - there are no examples of brutality among Afghans - we know better - we have seen the news - I just cannot see why Assef is German can any of you...?!?

And what is the bit about Assef's parents living in Australia - what has that got to do with the story - why would the author include that tid bit of information...?

I don't know about the actual Afghanistan history part. But, from just a literary perspective, Assef is a Nazi, a brutal, sadistic, racist sociopath who likes to hurt people. Assef reminds me of Hitler's original pro-aryan racist followers. As Hitler gained power, and his followers were allowed to commit atrocities against non-aryan German people, their atrocities grew and their numbers grew. The German people did not stop them. They were afraid to stop them and look what happened.

I think the author is making a parallel between the Taliban and Hitler's Nazis. As Afghanistan, for whatever reasons, did not stop the growth of the Taliban, it got away with terrible atrocities committed by members like Assef.

You can compare the young Amir, who does not step up to stop Assef, with the German citizen who does not step up to stop the Nazis.

aha - makes sense - especially the part where the German's didn't stop what was happening - as I recall the similar thing where the Taliban and the Nazi's were saving the respective nations from something awful - for Afghanistan it was the Soviets and the Nazi's the awful deep deep depression with streets filled doorstep to doorstep with homeless folks sleeping in the streets and lines for food that often when someone got to the head of the line the increase in price was enough they could no longer afford to buy what they waited on line for hours to purchase.

OK it makes sense now - where all I could see was an ethnic slur...

Excellent explanation, Marni! However, may I expand a bit on the Afghans' purpose in allowing the Taliban to spread their atrocious behavior througout the country.

There is such a strong, deeply embedded culture of dominance among the warlords in the various areas of the country. The Taliban plied them not only with their interpretation of Islam (which was severe and extremely harmful to women), but also with the express guarantees that they - the warlords - would hold on to their regional and tribal authority, regardless of what officials in Kabul said or did. Paying and accepting baksheesh (bribes) is common in Central Asia (as well as other global sites).

The behind-the-scenes discussions between the Taliban and the warlords (and their minions throughout the country who reported back to the warlords) resulted in a culture of deceit and untrustworthy relationships for the average Afghan.

The illiteracy rate in Afghanistan (especially in the rural areas) is unusually high; people tend to follow those whom they know as tribal leaders, accepting their word as true (usually without question and especially if they speak in Islamic terms). The brutality towards women became more severe under the Taliban, although women have always been treated severely in the region. Think of thousands of uneducated women solely dependent on a man for their livelihood - food, clothing, safety, shelter - and the level of depression and suicide among the female population is easily understood.

Whereas the Germans were faced with equally atrocious thugs and murderers, they were educated and in many cases COULD have responded more forcefully, but didn't.

From the beginning, when Amir described how he stood by while Asef brutalized Hassan, I was reading in two dimensions and time periods: Afghanistan and Germany. Kite Runner has been a VERY hard book for me to read, even as Amir begins to correct his earlier cowardice..

Hard to read? I can't imagine anybody who found this easy to read. I hope it IS hard to read for any human being anywhere who has to plow thru it, I certainly wouldn't have if it had not been for this book club, it would have been on the heap in the first week.

These remarks are made off the cuff and are not intended as any kind of deep analysis, but the book is, in my opinion, not worthy of deep anything and this entire post is in reaction to the issues in Question #7 above and all of the other like collateral baggage in the book.

Pot boiler does not describe it.

I have several conflicting thoughts in reading it, some of which are as follows:

Marni, how clever of you to notice there is a way to be good again on page 2. I missed it. I was thinking idly that perhaps the reason that so many of these…foreshadowings or conclusions in the book don't seem to belong in some of the places they are found (not talking now about page 2, where it's logical), is perhaps because he went back and put them all in later, but I'm too lazy and don't care enough about this book to want to make a list and then see IF these utterances lead up to anything, that is, maybe they form a plot outline or maybe they form a plot by themselves.

Too much. This is simply too much. The foolishness of it's being Assef again, ridiculous. The series of coincidences, ridiculous. "What most non Afghans would have seen as an improbable coincidence, that a beggar on the street would happen to know my mother. Because we both knew that in Afghanistan, and particularly in Kabul, such absurdity was commonplace." (page 251).

I find that one less absurd than the others. I can see how that might happen, after all the former Professor did not leave the city (why not) and so therefore might still be there and might have known his father in a happier time.

I think that quote is the author's apologia for the entire book which IS filled with such bunk.

In answer to Question #4 above, of course the point is also made about the current respect for learning in the country too, so that's a valuable point. The whole book is a series of conundrums, pairings, and the pairing of things that make sense with those which are simply outrageous. The excuse that those who are not Afghans will not understand all these plot twists and incredible happenings….uh…he's right, they won't.

We wanted to hear voices from another country, ok we're hearing that life with the Taliban is hell. The inter soccer match spectacle is worse than any ancient Roman amusement. It shows us that human beings even in 2005 can be lower than any animal.

We're hearing that Afghanistan is a mess, and worse. The question is raised on page 267, maybe it's a hopeless place. We are supposed to say , no, as long as these great souls live and try, it's not. I'm not so sure, if it's like it's written here, I'm not going to say what I think needs to happen but speaking as one unfamiliar with the Taliban, I think I've heard enough. Disgusting.

The business of Amir's "original sin," and guilt is just not strong enough to make a case. He was a child , as Rahim points out to him, (somebody finally with some sense), and a frightened child, if he HAD stepped forward, apparently he has not considered that, he'd also have been attacked. There's no point in a grown man carrying on about this one episode, as he has, all these years. He's still the same person he was: the child is father to the man, he's still throwing up and he's still timid, this so called "burden" is not convincing, to me.

The business of Baba's "lie" does not make sense. Did Ali know or not? Hassan did not, apparently. What does this say about Baba's bravery? What great sin would it have been to have revealed who the father was? I am not "getting" the point here?

"But I had driven Hassan and Ali out of the house. Was it too far-fetched to imagine that things might have turned out differently if I hadn't? Maybe Baba would have brought them along to America." (page 226)

HE didn't drive them out of the house. He was a child, and a witness to a crime. The two "adults" in this, one of whom was renowned for standing up bravely in trucks, those two adults removed Hassan from the house and "Baba" could have any time brought them to America.

The book is not logical, and neither is the narrator, perhaps it's all intended that way.

I see one reference to the Lion of Panjsher, Barbara, will you explain the question #3 above, the one reference I see is on page 230, at this point I am so confused with all the coincidences and shared burdens, etc. I can't see any relevance to the story and don't understand that part, and wish to?

And now Rahim has disappeared, he's like Obi Wan Kenobi, isn't he, gone again, here today, poof tomorrow, with a farewell letter exonerating Amir of guilt. He summoned him with "a chance to be good again," ("and that, I believe, is what true redemption is, Amir jan, when guilt leads to good.") (page 302). There's another one: valid and logical thoughts swimming in an unbelievable broth.

And now he's waded off into the sunset, just evaporated like the mist, like a dog going off to die alone. I have not read the rest of the book but I bet you he turns up on Sunset Boulevard. I bet the entire book turns up in Hollywood, and I guarantee you one viewer who won't be in the audience.

And Amir has a split lip which looks just like a harelip and he's to literally and figuratively become Hassan to Hassan's son. And he asks "what have I ever done to right things?" (303)

Enough!

And the last words of our current section: a way to be good again… (page 310).

I guess we could debate the concept of "being good," and I guess we could say that he IS being good by his current actions, I guess we could examine all the "stains" in the book, the metaphors for stain to see if, perhaps, the author is really saying that one stain does not a life destroy, but gee WHIZ!

And of course, if he's true to form, he'll tie up the loose ends of the Kite Running business.

I hope we get to rate this book at the end of the discussion, from * to ***** stars, I am going to be interested, if we do, in what others saw in it or didn't see.

Also has anybody besides me found it ironic that he found his saving grace, his freedom, in laughing while being assaulted, is the same behavior, the same model that Assef has just told him? He's copying the wrong guy.

hehehehehaaaa Oh Dear and my oh my - lots to consider here - reading the recent posts this is what my head feels like -- Gears trying to mesh in a metal time bomb of a head

OK we are deliberating here not debating -

[Deliberating: discuss the pros and cons of an issue; to consider (a matter) carefully and often slowly, as by weighing alternatives; to reflect; to consider; to hesitate in deciding]

[Debating: To engage in combat for; to strive for; to dispute; to contest; to argue for and against; a formalized system of (usually) logical argument. It is a rule-governed contest with two or more sides, usually presided by a judge. Each side is attempting to win the approval of a designated audience, such as a judge.]

NONE of us are judges - we are not trying to win the approval of anyone participating in this conversation and so with that lets not strive for agreement but rather reflect, consider the alternatives...this is a book and the characters are not part of our family. For a book to be read and accepted by many readers the themes must resonate with as many readers who are willing to read to the last page.

Aha Ginny the reflection on Star Wars is a place I think I can start - George Lucas appear to be considered by many the heir to the mantles of Homer, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John - or has he successfully and simply offered a very tidy example of how pervasive "monomyth" themes are in the storytelling process.

[Monomyth, a word used by Joseph Campbell, "A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow men."

Is this the formula that Hosseini is attempting and therefore, you are easily able to compare the characters roles in Kite Runner to Lucas' Star Wars.

What I can also hear you say, he is not as imaginative a writer as all the hoopla over this book would suggest. Oh I am sure in a small area of a town the possibility is that you could run into an old friend, just as a stranger could know one of your relations. Where as for me, when I read the bit about the beggar, I must confess since we have been trained to think of the mysterious east with snakes being piped out of baskets [I know that is India] and hidden civilizations in the mountains of Tibet, I simply took it at face value as compared to my reading books like Marco Polo. Again, for me a Novel asks me to suspend practical belief and if an author grabs my attention than I forgive him what to others seems fantastical.

But from the get-go I have shared this author in no Faulkner or Penn Warren and seems to me to be on the level of a Fannie Flag, who I adore however, she does not bring us face to face with the Cancerous warts of our society as this author seems to be showing us the dichotomy of good and behavior beyond human understanding within the Afghan society.

I am so glad you mentioned that Baba could at any time have brought Hassan and his family to the US - yes, and that is part of my uncomfort with Amir taking on the mantle of victim for the sins of the father. But then as Merni so aptly reminded me that the author has chosen to make that his theme regardless if it makes me comfortable or not.

As to our understanding of the nation's culture being paramount to our understanding the book - to me that is dead on - if it took an education of any land and its culture to understand a book we would not pay good money for a book or the book would not get that many readers - the themes must ring for lots of folks in order for these 'lots of folks' to relate to the story and its characters.

As to Afghanistan being a hopeless place - all my reaction to that is, than we would have to say many many folks are hopeless - we would have to say those who participate in any horror are hopeless which includes even our own history when you read of the horrors of the Civil War Prisoner camps and the way we destroyed the Native American culture - no, we did not stone people to death in an arena but as a child I remember passing stonemasons whose work was lined up with their center piece often a statue of Custer, sword on high surrounded by a few falling men and being told he suffered a fate worse than death with no information offered to me, the child, of how he slaughtered the Native Americans.

I think we all have difficulty as well as prefer not to see the base in ourselves. And who knows how we would behave given the situation and education [not necessarily formal rather, values and knowledge passed down from father to son] - My take on this is that Hosseini is attempting to show us the evil in Afghan culture that existed before the Russian Invasion as well as, the evil in what was to be the cure by the Taliban. Reminds me of how we glorify various times in our history - the 1950s, the 1840s etc. without recognizing that we did not all share freedom and certain folks were still being hung in trees because of our own inherent evil - for that matter within our culture as recently as the late 1990 we had a man dragged to his death behind a pickup and today we have children, as indiscriminately as a Talib, killing their schoolmates.

And so this author with this story has made me think -

As to the laughing bit - I too was confused except - thinking while writing here - if a theme is to open our eyes to the good and bad within all of us and how we carry the mantle of our father's sins than tying Amir and Assef with their laughing scene would make sense.

I don't and won't read a book that doesn't promise me enjoyment and pleasure.

IMHO, this book is okay but just okay and there are too many writers out there writing these tomes of uninteresting and not very well presented stories. We all have a story to tell but obviously,not all of us are writers.

Predictable it was and I had this book figured out almost right from the beginning with its little mystery of who fathered Hassan. As soon as Baba had Hassan's harelip repaired, I knew that I was right.

To use Assef as a cruel, heartless bully would have been enough, so it wasn't necessary to make him German or Hutu or a White Russian. But, its a way for most of the world to understand his cruelty, to make him a German with Hitler-like tendencies. I suspected that we would meet him later, as an adult. Another writer tool but also too obvious.

I liked the story of the kite flyers of Afghanistan but only because the annual contests were new info for me, about Afghanistan.

Having read several books about the Middle East in the last 2 years, I found the book quite dry and not something that I would recommend to my library group.

Interesting how different we all are. I LOVED this book! I read it once when I received it and then again to participate in our bookclub discussions. I would (and have) recommend it to anyone. I read a great deal and was an English teacher, so it's not that I'm inexperienced with literature. Certainly, one could predict certain things would probably happen down the road in the book. It didn't take away from the enjoyment of a good heart-rending story, several wonderful characters, and a fascinating picture of a country in turmoil.

Second time around, I realized the book was deeper than I had thought.

Barbara: I'm glad you mentioned the native American indians and their experience. I happened to be in Washington D.C. this past fall during the opening of the new Smithsonian Native American Indian Museum. 500,000 native Americans had convened in D.C. to participate in opening ceremonies, and I took the opportunity to talk with some. One said to me that this new museum was "their Holocaust museum."

Since we are summing up our feelings about this book and we still have another section to go with still more twists that could bring reaction and what it means; to the reader, to Afghanistan and to the characters - Let's go on and discuss the last pages in addition to the pages that we were scheduled to read this week -

Either tonight or in the morning [need a bit of time] I will get a few more focus questions in the heading that address the last pages - for now though I am assuming everyone has finished the book - therefore, let's look at in its entirety and identify the themes and the message the author is addressing with these characters in the place and time he has chosen...

So far y'all have offered a great discussion and I have been enjoying the differences that we see as we read this book...

That I have learned a great deal about Afghanistan and other Middle East or Asian countries by just reading the many interesting posts.

And we have had the most curious leader here who has brought us so much to think about plus so many fine links to other info. Barbara is one of the best DL's.

I guess everyone has finished, or almost finished the book.
I'm also annoyed with the contrived events. I also find the violence to be over the top.
Several friends have recently asked me what I'm reading, and none of them have wanted to borrow Kite Runner when I'm finished with it, after I've told them about the book. Many senior readers, IMO, can not cope with that much violence or unhappiness in their everyday reading.

However, this discussion is way beyond everyday reading. What an outstanding discussion this has become. There have been so many links posted to the country, the history, the various religious groups, and
additional background reading.

I'm grateful to you, Barbara, for such good leadership. Let's see what we can learn in this last part ...

I'm glad we can move on. A big lightbulb just went off and I don't want to forget it. Let me know if you think I'm over the top.

I had wondered why Hassan’s son was named Sohrab. On the surface, the answer is that Sohrab was a hero in Hassan's favorite story. But, the author had to mean more than that.

In the tale, the warrior Rostam mortally wounds his enemy, his warrior son, Sohrab. We already discussed how Amir had compared Baba and himself to Rostam and Sohrab. Now, we have another Sohrab. Is there another parallel to the tale?

Yes. Amir has been transforming into Hassan. He is now Sohrab’s surrogate father, scar and all. Amir and Sohrab both have become brave warriors in the battle against Assef. So, how does Amir (Rostam) mortally wound Sohrab? He renigs on his promise not to send him to another orphanage and then, callously, goes to sleep. Sohrab is mortally wounded. He commits suicide.

The physical Sohrab would have died except that exceptional measures were taken to save him and he was strong. Sohrab as a person dies. He is no longer the same person. He no longer speaks and he no longer smiles. He, like his father, stopped smiling.

Amir continues his metamorphosis into Hassan in his struggle to bring Sohrab back. I think Amir completes the metamorphosis when, at the end of the book, after Sohrab smiles a wee bit of a smile, Amir smiles a BIG smile, like Hassan's famous smile - and he becomes the KITE RUNNER.

When Amir and Hassan were young, it was really Hassan who was the Kite Runner during the kite fighting sport. Now, it is Amir. And his words, the last words of the book, are: "I ran." These are exact words he used to describe how he ran away from Hassan's rape scene. "I ran." First, he ran because he was a coward. Now he runs because he has achieved redemption, freedom. He has become the Kite Runner.

WOW Marni...!!!

back later - Sunday night routine that includes calls from my kids, a glass of wine and PBS masterpiece theatre or this week mystery theatre.

MARNI - with insight like this, you'd make a great Pashtun!

With insights like those and her wonderful post in The Razor's Edge on being addicted to online book clubs, Marni should win the Laurel Wreath of Reading!!

I agree, Ann and Mippy, it IS a good discussion, great work, Barbara! And Contributors!

Some comments on one of Ginny's more recent posts:

"The business of Amir's "original sin," and guilt is just not strong enough to make a case. He was a child .... "

Followed by the comment that "this book is not logical." Life is not logical. Fear makes humans act in strange ways. In fact, modern humans have learned to ignore their fear to their detriment (de Becker's The Gift of Fear). Humans don't always act in logical ways. Humans don't always take the logical step. We would be Vulcans, if we did.

"The business of Baba's "lie" does not make sense. Did Ali know or not? Hassan did not, apparently. What does this say about Baba's bravery? What great sin would it have been to have revealed who the father was? I am not "getting" the point here? "

Ali has to know, because Ali is the only one who can know the root of the whole incident, his sterility, or impotence. How could Baba know, if Ali didn't, at least this part? As to knowing who the father is? Ali is not stupid, he knows. It would have been a grave insult to Ali, to reveal the secret--and no benefit to Baba, because he would lose Ali and his son. They could only live as they did if they lived the lie. Even in America today it is a sense of shame to a man whose wife has given birth to a child not his own. In fact, it is such a great shame, that the law gives the right of fatherhood to the man MARRIED to the woman. American law and culture, and the sense of shame attributed to a husband whose wife has been with another man is not far removed from Kabul in the 1960s.

"But I had driven Hassan and Ali out of the house. Was it too far-fetched to imagine that things might have turned out differently if I hadn't? Maybe Baba would have brought them along to America." (page 226)

HE didn't drive them out of the house. He was a child, and a witness to a crime. The two "adults" in this, one of whom was renowned for standing up bravely in trucks, those two adults removed Hassan from the house and "Baba" could have any time brought them to America. "

I think this part is logical. You follow this quote by the nonlogical statement. However, this is one of the very predictable parts of the book, and something I posted earlier as did others: Amir was a child.

"The book is not logical, and neither is the narrator, perhaps it's all intended that way."

Humans are not logical.

And, I think, in the case of this book, that it bears repeating that Amir was a child. This, I think, is the point of the book: Amir could not accept himself.

Ginny, Afghanistan is not under control of the Taliban in 2005.

Someone mentioned that Baba could have, at any time, brought Ali and Hassan to the USA. It has always been easier to bring women, even under the atrocities of the Taliban, to the United States, than it has been to bring Afghan men. As I mentioned earlier, one of my Uncles was only able to come because the Pope personally asked the leaders of Western nations to allow Afghans into their countries. This request was for Afghan men, in particular, as Afghan women have held high refugee status forever, as far as I can tell. When my first Afghan Uncle moved here, he could only bring women into the USA initially.

It would have uncertain that Baba could bring Ali and Hassan to the USA. A few problems, from Hazarajat, they could only leave to a refugee camp in Iran. This would have been extreme travel, with a high likelihood of death. It would have been too dangerous to go to Kabul, and then to Pakistan. They could not have gone from Iran or Pakistan to the USA, but would have had to stay in refugee camps for years. Their poverty in either of these countries would have been relentless.

But would it have mattered if he could have? Baba could have taken the truth, from the man he stole from, before he took a lie from his one son. Baba chose to send Ali and Hassan away--why would he send for them? Amir is his father's son in this. Blood being thicker than water? It looks like Hassan is his water-father's son, not his blood-father's son.

Ann commented, "Having read several books about the Middle East in the last 2 years, I found the book quite dry and not something that I would recommend to my library group."

Afghanistan is not in the Middle East. I would still recommend the book to a library read, if only to have them learn about Afghanistan--that it is not about Arabs, it is not in the Middle East, it is a very diverse country.

Kleo

"Is this the author's message do you think - honesty before pride...!" Barbara

Yes, I think this is a great message. Especially when the message is honesty to oneself before pride. Ultimately this is Amir's failure and the failure of many people, but also bullies. One becomes a bully because one cannot look at oneself. Hurting others, with words, or fists, insulting or belittling others, rather than look honestly at oneself is a very human trait. Amir is not alone in this. He is just much harder on himself--again, a redeeming trait, not a negative one.

In fact, Amir is so blinded by his inability to look at himself, that he cannot even logically follow what is going on around him. When people feel threatened, their response is not always logical. Evaluating the threat to see if it is real would often be the logical response. But what happens is folks go blindly forward without the evaluation, often to their detriment. Again, like the illogical of ignoring fear.

As to the laughter--laughter is an hysterical response. Not far-fetched in a dangerous situation. I once had to help a woman who had just been assaulted because she would not let the male police officers near her. She kept laughing. I was stunned, but stayed with her as I had been asked to, until she calmed down and started sobbing. The police officers told me afterwards that crime victims do laugh hysterically, people laugh under threat of danger--it's simply hysteria.

Kleo

Do we really want to read Faulkner? I've never seen Kite Runner advertised as anything but what it is, a first book from an Afghan American writer about Afghan American culture.

I'm not always interested in reading Faulkner, one of my favorite authors. Sometimes I want to read Robin Cook. Although I read tons of literature, it's not, to me, a Read-Around-the-World necessity.

Kleo

Just a cultural comment. Afghans eat melon for dessert at every meal with company and most family meals. They eat watermelon, usually, but other melons also. In Afghanistan the melon they eat is shaped like a watermelon, but smaller. It is colored like a honeydew outside, but with pale yellow flesh inside. It is very crispy, and has very little flavor. They do sell it in California's Central Valley. I am used to eating it and brought it once in a fruit salad to a pot luck--everyone thought it was dreadful. Lol.

The main dish that Afghans eat that has turnips in it is a sticky sweet-and-sour dish that is very very spicy. I love it. Most Americans do not because it is too spicy-hot. I have tasted an Iranian dish like this, also, how I first learned to eat it, Mahlia. The root vegetables are carmelized in the cooking, giving it its stickiness. Am I think correctly, Mahlia, that this is also an Iranian dish?

Kleo

Well the discussion's heating up! I've reached the end of Phase II finally. I was a little disappointed that Hassan was so quickly dispatched (off-stage yet!). Certainly, judging from the beginning, I thought he'd be a major player in a reunion scene later in the book. Now I see he is meant to be more a "device" to show something (or put into action something) for Amir. Character as catalyst, then.

Marni you're a regular dynamo! A reading machine! Please, you're putting me to shame! (Well, don't feel bad. I've been there before.)

Second the motion on kudos to Barbara. Give that woman a wine and a PBS show, will ya? She deserves it! Great work.

And now, back to the (Afghan) mines. Read, Freeman, read!

MARNI, excellent reasoning and deductions; well done!

My "ouch" was in reaction to post # 522. Would we have felt as free to express our views and doubts if the author had been with us in this discussion ?

Regarding the suggestion that "Baba could have (at) any time brought them (meaning Ali and Hassan) to America", I was going to ask how, and when, even why - but thankfully KLEO has dealt with this issue.

However, one clarification : Baba did not send Ali and Hassan away.

This is what happened:
Amir plants the watch and money under Hassan's mattress hoping that Ali and Hassan will be dismissed.

Hassan and Ali are summoned and, under questioning from Baba, Hassan - ever loyal to Amir - "confesses" to the theft.

Surprising Amir, Baba forgives Hassan.

Later Ali and Hassan come to take their leave. Baba pleads with them, reassuring them that all is forgiven, and when nothing can persuade them, Baba forbids them to leave. "Respectfully, you can't forbid me to do anything, Agha sahib," says Ali, "we don't work for you any more." He asks Baba to drive them to the bus station. Baba keeps saying "please" and for the first time in his life Amir sees him cry. (pp.105-07).

When Chapter Ten opens, five years have passed, Amir is eighteen. Unbeknownst to the seventh servant in five yars, Baba and Amir have arranged to flee Kabul for the relative safety of Pakistan.

Chapter Eleven finds them settled in California.

It would have been a huge, complicated, time-consuming, costly endeavor to track down Ali and Hassan and bring them to America. Could Baba have afforded it?
And how would Baba have explained this without giving away his secret?

Years later Amir meets Rahim Khan in Pakistan (in June 2001, Chapter Fourteen) and finds out what that secret is.

I recently recommended Kite Runner to a local book club. Although as mentioned earlier, I found the book very hard to read, it was because it brought back memories of people whom I've known, the poverty and illiteracy of the country, the power of the warlords and the unfairness of the treatment of women, as well as the wanton destruction by the Taliban of a country and its people already suffering from previous conflicts. And although I've worked with Afghans for many years in various capacities, it also made me wonder how much more I could have/should have done to help them resettle in the USA.

I also recommended the book so that Americans will continue to have some concept of Afghanistan - as a country, as a region in which US troops are still present, and to encourage Westerners to learn - and remember - that as KLEO has reminded us, Afghanistan is in Central Asia, NOT the Middle East, Afghans are NOT Arabs, and the culture is quite different than what we have learned about previous discussions focused on Middle East topics from recent books about that region.

I've also recommended LOST BOYS OF SUDAN: An American Story of the Refugee Experience by Mark Bixler. This is another region which is not generally familiar to Western readers.

The current discussion has so far certainly provided the type of stellar learning opportunity for which SN is known (and applauded). The exchange of impressions has been interesting; the guidance by the DL much appreciated; and the generosity of KLEO to share personal experiences of Afghan culture a real treat.

KLEO - I'm not familiar with the turnip dish you described, probably because I don't care for turnips. Persian dishes tend to be seasoned subtly and usually are not the highly spiced foods of Afghanistan. Although I'd guess that in the Persian communities along the common Iran/Afghan border, the food might be spicier than the traditional Persian cuisine.

Will be back later, near noon and make the changes in the heading - wonderful posts filled with lots to talk about - looking forward to early this afternoon...think about how Sohrab's silence is related as a symbol to Afhanistan as well as, to what theme is his silence contributing.

Yes, Mahlia, Persian dishes are much more subtly spiced than Afghan dishes. There is also more regional variety. As far as I can tell from this book and Afghans I know all Afghans pretty much eat all the same foods. This carmelized turnip dish is even spicy for an Afghan dish. Of course, like everywhere else in the world, it's a poverty food. The other poverty food being the dish made with Afghan leeks in dumplings, then covered with yoghurt, and tons of hot spices. Afghans have plenty of vegetarian dishes because they are so poor.

When my Uncle went back to his home village for the first time after the fall of the Taliban, he had two sheep slaughtered for the villagers. He took a home movie of it. There is one scene where a boy, who could have been as old as 15, although he looked about 10, is carrying meat back to his mother when you can see the scent of the meat waft into his nostrils--he starts eating the lamb raw. I am certain it is the first meat he had ever eaten.

Traude--Sending Ali and Hassan away is simply my interpretation of this incident. Baba could have, at any time, admitted that his son had done the deed of establishing Hassan as a thief. Baba knows what goes on in his house. He also knows that Hassan is not a thief, that his son is the trouble-maker, as Baba was when he and Ali were young. Baba is not a stupid man. When he 'forgives' Hassan he is complicit in the lie with his favored son. He chooses blood, although, as we later learn, he has made a Sophie's choice between blood and blood. Afghans don't keep secrets. Men like Baba are not in the dark as to what is going on in their house.

Kleo

Afghans don't keep secrets. Boy, is that an understatement!

Well, ultimately it's both.

There are some things about Afghans that are integral to this story. Afghans don't keep secrets is one.

They do keep secrets from outsiders, though.

There are no rules to a game is sorta true. But it is hard to convey this concept in its entirety to an American. The older Afghan kids have a difficult time adjusting to playing by the rules in American society, especially when they know that so many American kids cheat (on papers, at sports with steroids, with favors due to relatives in high positions). Hosseini mentions this, but it's importance is lost in the pursuit of the kite and what comes afterwards.

Hosseini is interesting. He reveals what anyone will learn if they hang out with Afghans for a long time. But he doesn't really show so well the why of it. Afghanistan is a harsh and demanding climate. If you don't have others at your back 100% of the time you may die. This is real life in the shadow of the Hindu Kush, where the growing season is short, the winters long and painful. I don't think a non-tribal society could have formed here. Afghans live like they do because they have to. In survival the only way to win is to live. Rules that Afghans play by show this.

Sometimes winning is everything because there is only one piece of meat to be had.

Violence is hard to read? Try living by it. I know one family who had to leave at night barefoot in their sleeping clothes to save their daughter (9) from being raped by a Talib. I know a woman whose back is bent over from huddling in the dark sewing burqas for women under the Taliban to feed her daughters.

We live in a violent world, and most of us in here are blessed to have been born and raised in the First World. If we are going to read around the world, this may be the worst of what we read, but that's not necessarily so. When I read about the scar on Hassan's mother's face it reminded me of another scar, on a man I knew when I was young. He had a shovel scar dug into his face from one temple, down across his cheekbone, sinking in the whole side of his face, where Pol Pot's henchmen had tried to beat him to death in field, alongside his parents and siblings, with a shovel.

I am lucky to live when and where I have the luxury to sit and read the pain of someone else's life. I think that being a witness to horror is part of preventing it. If we can't stop it, and we can't even read about it, how can anyone live through it? And yet people do.

Kleo

GINNY: when you get mad at this book I think you are "killing the messenger".

Yes, this book is not the Iliad, and the plot mechanics are way, way too obvious. But it's a decent first novel -- we've read a lot worse on Seniornet. A measure of how good is the level of discussion it has sparked, both here and in my face-to-face group. We're good (very good!!) but even we can't make something out of nothing.

I'm guessing that what made you so angry was the violence and brutality in the book. (If I'm wrong, please correct). You are right to be angry, but you're angry at the wrong people. Evil exists, just as good exists, and it's important that we acknowledge it. It would have been obscene, in my view, to write a novel about modern Afghanistan and NOT show the horror. We need to know: we need to care and get mad, but at the people who do it, not at the people who tell us.

Brutality exists, and if we hide from it and don't acknowledge it, it will grow: maybe even exist HERE. For example, when the pictures came out showing the mistreatments that occurred in the Iraqi prison camp, if everyone had gotten mad at the journalists, said "How dare they show us these nasty pictures and upset us", or if the army had punished the person who told them what they didn't want to hear, what would have happened? The abuses would have grown and gotten worse and worse.

Having said that, there is a question of balance. An Afghan might say "He showed too much of the bad things of my country and not enough of the things I love about it". Do you say that, Kleo?

Also, making Assef German is a cop-out. (Actually, he's half German, half Afghan, but it shows the nature of the cop=out that we all think of him as German).

Kleo: we were posting together. As usual, you said it better than I did.

OK lots of hearts and kisses to your continued deliberation in this conversation about this book...Now to summerize...

Ann in her opinion the book is OK, predictable, likes that she has learned about Kite Flying and ~ "To use Assef as a cruel, heartless bully would have been enough, so it wasn't necessary to make him German or Hutu or a White Russian. But, its a way for most of the world to understand his cruelty, to make him a German with Hitler-like tendencies." - in a following post Ann says she learned much about "Afghanistan and other Middle East or Asian countries by just reading the many interesting posts." And thanks Ann for your Kudos, it is heartwarming to hear.

Marni loved the book, read it earlier and re-read it for this conversations where she realized it had depth that she missed the first time around. And yes, heartstopping - "One said to me that this new museum was "their Holocaust museum."" Thanks to you Marni, you have such a grand knack of keeping us to the book which is really our conversation here.

Mippy was "annoyed with the contrived events. I also find the violence to be over the top." And remarks, "What an outstanding discussion this has become." And thank you for the Kudos - I am so glad this ended up being a reason to read and share your thoughts about this book.

And then the wonders of all posts that I am just going to reprint most of it here - it is such a grand summery of what the author was saying - just grand Marni -

I had wondered why Hassan’s son was named Sohrab. On the surface, the answer is that Sohrab was a hero in Hassan's favorite story. But, the author had to mean more than that.

In the tale, the warrior Rostam mortally wounds his enemy, his warrior son, Sohrab. We already discussed how Amir had compared Baba and himself to Rostam and Sohrab. Now, we have another Sohrab. Is there another parallel to the tale?

Yes. Amir has been transforming into Hassan. He is now Sohrab’s surrogate father, scar and all. Amir and Sohrab both have become brave warriors in the battle against Assef. So, how does Amir (Rostam) mortally wound Sohrab? He renigs on his promise not to send him to another orphanage and then, callously, goes to sleep. Sohrab is mortally wounded. He commits suicide.

The physical Sohrab would have died except that exceptional measures were taken to save him and he was strong. Sohrab as a person dies. He is no longer the same person. He no longer speaks and he no longer smiles. He, like his father, stopped smiling.

Amir continues his metamorphosis into Hassan in his struggle to bring Sohrab back. I think Amir completes the metamorphosis when, at the end of the book, after Sohrab smiles a wee bit of a smile, Amir smiles a BIG smile, like Hassan's famous smile - and he becomes the KITE RUNNER.

When Amir and Hassan were young, it was really Hassan who was the Kite Runner during the kite fighting sport. Now, it is Amir. And his words, the last words of the book, are: "I ran." These are exact words he used to describe how he ran away from Hassan's rape scene. "I ran." [I've inserted the underlining and change in font] First, he ran because he was a coward. Now he runs because he has achieved redemption, freedom. He has become the Kite Runner.

Persia and Ginny send Kudos to Marnie...

Kleo shares that Life is not logical - "Humans don't always act in logical ways. Humans don't always take the logical step." Kleo justifies the lie by saying, "It would have been a grave insult to Ali, to reveal the secret--and no benefit to Baba, because he would lose Ali and his son. They could only live as they did if they lived the lie."

What do y'all think about keeping family secrets - yes, it is like an atom bomb goes off in a family when the secret is revealed and the family would not live as it had so change would have been forced upon the family with the truth revealed. Is that what the author is doing now, revealing truths about the way Afghan culture handled secrets? Can the revelation of secrets only happen in an open society like in America? Is Amir showing how his father and Ali's choice to keep the secret could have been handled diffently when he reveals the relationship he shares with Sohrab to Farid and his family?

Good point to deliberate on Kleo thanks for bringing it to our attention.

Another point Kleo makes is, "The two "adults" in this, one of whom was renowned for standing up bravely in trucks, those two adults removed Hassan from the house..."

When you repeat this idea which is so right on ~ "The book is not logical, and neither is the narrator, perhaps it's all intended that way." I think this is a good place to inject here that this is a piece of Fiction and what Fiction does as compared to Non-Fiction.

Fiction is "made up," and indirect in its communication. A work of fiction evokes; the thrill of imagining impossible or unavailable experiences; intrigue with playing out "what if" or" if only" scenarios; feelings and perceptions of another historical period, or simply observations on the human condition.

We read fiction to gain new information as much as to experience the ideas and feelings a story inspires within us. Bringing about an emotional involvement is a major issue with fiction. We expect a piece of fiction to grab us, where as we expect a nonfiction essay to convince us. We will suspend belief when reading a novel, but demand reason and evidence from nonfiction.

Where as, Nonfiction is characterized by truth, reality. When we read Nonfiction we expect the author to state personal preferences or belief but than back it up by showing logical proof; to write in a logical sequence and with certainty.

And so where magically an old beggar can know Amir's mother so too, many events that did not happen could have been included in the story.

As to the violence in the book being over the top it is nothing compared to the reality of the Taliban.

Joan, I always think you put it better than I do.

Joan: "Having said [Brutality exists, and if we hide from it and don't acknowledge it, it will grow], there is a question of balance. An Afghan might say "He showed too much of the bad things of my country and not enough of the things I love about it". Do you say that, Kleo? "

Well, it's not my country, but I love Afghans. don't think for the past 30 years there has been much good to show in Afghanistan. Where I think Hosseini failed was to show the depth of belonging that an Afghan has. This is what Amir was longing for all of the time. He kept looking to validate himself outside, somehow. Again, this is what he was given by birth: his right to be a member of his tribe. Only he could have given this away. Yet he felt he never had this.

And THIS is because women are the heart of the tribe even in this deeply patriarchal society--because women make the home. The Taliban had to destroy the women of Afghanistan because this is where the love is, and the Taliban were about hatred, of humans, of God, of themselves, least of all.

I think that because the author did not include women early in this book he gave a very slanted view of women in Afghan society. And because he did not show women he could not show the depth of the beauty of the Afghan people, which is in the hearts and souls of the women who make Afghanistan a home in these impoverished, cruel mountains and their valleys.

Men and women are not equal. Women are the waters of life, bringing nutrients to the plains, nourishing the forests and the wildflowers, removing the edges from the jagged rocks, giving birth to the future, women are the succor of all of the poverty and pain and tragedy of human existence.

"Also, making Assef German is a cop-out. (Actually, he's half German, half Afghan, but it shows the nature of the cop=out that we all think of him as German). "

Well, what should he have made Assef? The fact is at least half, or more, of Afghanistan's problem's for the past few decades have been from outsiders. So, given that, there had to be an outsider. What nationality should he have been? An Afghan woman of the time would not have married an outsider, so it has to be an Afghan man married to an outsider. Logic, consistency, believability? Well, that kinda limits it. When my Uncle first moved to the United States there were no other Afghans at all, as far as I can tell. So, not American. Would it have been a Uzbek? Well, at that time it would have been the same as a Soviet. And that interferes with the Soviet story.

Afghanistan suffered some of the same fates as the rest of the world did under the Germans. They suffered the same as the Jews did. I think the point is NOT that Amir and Hassan suffered in the hands of a German, but that their tragedy is the twentieth century tragedy of evil touching individual human beings. By making Assef a German, Hosseini was tying the Afghan human tragedy into the Jewish human tragedy, the WWI human tragedy, the partitioning of the Indian subcontinent, and Turkey, and the Armenian human tragedies. Nothing made us look at what was happening as Germany did. Germany began in Spain in the 1930s. It began in the Ukraine. It began in Armenia.

I think what happened to Hassan from an outsider, and from insiders, is what destroyed Afghanistan. There had to be an outsider component. German? Realistic. American? Too many additional implications that don't focus on the tragedy of the 20th century.

Kleo

Whoops just noticed your posts Joan - back in a moment after I have an opportunity to read them and then it looks like Kleo responded to you...that happens when several of us are sharing in time close to each other...

Kleo also shares, "honesty to oneself before pride. Ultimately this is Amir's failure and the failure of many people, but also bullies."

Kevin injects that he "was a little disappointed that Hassan was so quickly dispatched (off-stage yet!)...Now I see he is meant to be more a "device" to show something (or put into action something) for Amir. Character as catalyst, then"

Wow yes, Hassan is a catalyst and because of Marni's post we know he is a catalyst to Amir becoming the Kite Runner...

Traude does a superb job or going back to the book and reviewing for us exactly how Ali and Hassan came to leave as well as Baba's reaction to their leaving. Traude also suggest the believe-ability factor that comes to play when there is a suggestion that Baba could have sent for them to come to America.

Mahlia recommends the book because it brought back memories and further suggests an additional book to consider reading. And Mahlia notes that the discussion has been up to what she has come to expect on Seniornet and has some Kudos that includes a Kudos for Kleo's generosity for sharing. Yes, Mahlia we can all agree on that one...

Both Mahlia and Kleo share some in-house exchanges about their culture and so let me finish with this remark that Kleo makes - "I am lucky to live when and where I have the luxury to sit and read the pain of someone else's life."

I remember when we were considering this book and I think it was Traude who said it was a sad book that left her in tears as she read the story. Do you think the author was hoping for that response? Is it easy for any of us who have lived through trauma to cry about what we experienced or are we shocked that others cry and would prefer they acknowledge our bravery?

Upon his return to America, Amir is gathered in the arms of his wife whose hair smells of apples. Do you think Amir sees the sadness in what happened to him and Sohrab?

So many questions as to how you see these characters and please note the questions in the heading have changed so on to discussion the book...Kite Runner!

How I missed this one I am not sure but Joan way back there you said some profound things like, "Evil exists, just as good exists, and it's important that we acknowledge it. It would have been obscene, in my view, to write a novel about modern Afghanistan and NOT show the horror. We need to know: we need to care and get mad, but at the people who do it, not at the people who tell us."

Kleo remarks that, "Where I think Hosseini failed was to show the depth of belonging that an Afghan has. This is what Amir was longing for all of the time. He kept looking to validate himself outside, somehow. Again, this is what he was given by birth: his right to be a member of his tribe. Only he could have given this away. Yet he felt he never had this."

Than Kleo ventures her opinion, "And THIS is because women are the heart of the tribe even in this deeply patriarchal society--because women make the home. The Taliban had to destroy the women of Afghanistan because this is where the love is, and the Taliban were about hatred, of humans, of God, of themselves, least of all.

I think that because the author did not include women early in this book he gave a very slanted view of women in Afghan society...Men and women are not equal. Women are the waters of life, bringing nutrients to the plains, nourishing the forests and the wildflowers, removing the edges from the jagged rocks, giving birth to the future, women are the succor of all of the poverty and pain and tragedy of human existence."

Kleo continues with her sage opinion, "...Assef? The fact is at least half, or more, of Afghanistan's problem's for the past few decades have been from outsiders. So, given that, there had to be an outsider...I think what happened to Hassan from an outsider, and from insiders, is what destroyed Afghanistan. There had to be an outsider component. German? Realistic. American? Too many additional implications that don't focus on the tragedy of the 20th century."

Reading some feedback about one of my comments, I feel like I had a good idea. I don't feel like that very often!! Thank you!!!

Marni

no need to go all humble on us now - if it was only one idea in your whole life it was a dozzy...

What I'm really impressed with in this discussion - perhaps "proud" would be a better word - is that we Westerners have been able to read along, allow our emotions (whether positive or negative) to flow as the story continues, get a better understanding of Amir (the character) and Hosseini (the writer, whom I sense is also a major part of the emotional makeup of the character), combine the "action figures" with the cultural background (as violent and unpleasant as it is at many points - and this cannot be emphasized too much: Afghanistan is a violent society) and still bring back to the discussion table a better sense of the book, its author and the characters he created.

Many fine points about those characters have been made - displayed for deeper consideration - acceptance or distaste for the culture has been brought forth and discussed and a general understanding (whether one likes it or not) seems to have come to the forefront.

I laughed at KLEO's comment about Afghans keeping secrets from outsiders. How true! And here I speak from personal experience.

It is also extremely important to understand the vileness of the Taliban towards women - and I think we have grasped that. The horrors of that kind of behavior is almost unheard of in our society, except for the unlucky women who have been in or still are in abusive relationships.

I'm glad we've come together to read this book and although I don't expect everyone here to rush off to adopt an Afghan refugee family, I know that we can look at Afghans and their home country in a much different way than before we began reading together. And, finally, we can appreciate the Afghan Americans whose love of their family heritage tugs at their hearts as they "balance" two cultures.

I was reminded of this need to balance multiple cultures when I read Sunday's PARADE MAGAZINE, which included a wonderful article on Arab Americans serving in the US Armed forces. Once again, Afghans are NOT Arabs, but I thought of the Afghan immigrants and their children as they exerted enormous efforts to adapt to American culture and then as we saw with Amir their success in creating their own paths. Something that many were certainly not able to do in Afghanistan.

KLEO - I hope someday we have a chance to meet personally and share some experiences face-to-face. How about hosting a KITE RUNNER mini-bash in your area?

Barbara comments: "I remember when we were considering this book and I think it was Traude who said it was a sad book that left her in tears as she read the story. Do you think the author was hoping for that response? Is it easy for any of us who have lived through trauma to cry about what we experienced or are we shocked that others cry and would prefer they acknowledge our bravery?"

This is the most marvelous gift I have from living with Afghans: the permission not to be brave.

Bravery in the face of human tragedy, keeping it together, is highly overrated.

When my cousin died suddenly a few years ago, my cousin whom I love dearly, who had a young wife and four children just getting ready to start kindergarten to tenth grade, and his sister called me to come over there, to his house, I bravely got my act together, packed everything necessary to spend the requisite 40 days at his house, drove to Fremont, walked in the door, threw myself on the floor and burst out wailing like an Afghan with his wife and the couple of other Afghan women who lived around the corner.

What was there, in this tragedy, to be brave about? How could anyone in their grief acknowledge or even use my bravery, my stoicness? More importantly, what good would it do me?

This is one thing Afghans and Paul Simon have right:

And she said losing love/ Is like a window in your heart/ Everybody sees you're blown apart/ Everybody sees the wind blow

This weekend I went to Cal Day at Berkeley with my cousin's widow and his oldest son. My cousin had been born in Afghanistan, came to the United States via Germany (and solely due to German generosity in sponsoring the initial exodus of Afghans, which other countries refused to do, in the 70s and 80s), married a woman who had been born in Afghanistan and spent years as a refugee in Pakistan, and together they had four children in America. Together with these two and their children we buried his father, and her mother, and married off his sister, the one whom I had grown up with, putting on a beautiful Afghan wedding, nekah, and everything. I paraded with the bride and her mother and my mother and all of the Afghan women of the family, and danced, and dyed my hand with henna and tied silk to set the ink, and watched my cousin tie a green sash around his sister's waist as we said good night to the bride and groom, and had breakfast the next morning with the new family and the old, and with my cousin and his wife, invited the new in-laws over for dinner, although we could barely stand on our feet!

And, then, with just his wife and sister, and hundreds and hundreds of Afghans, we buried him, the man I went to the fruit market with, sat and talked philosophy and ate pumpkin seeds with. What was there to be brave about when I burst out crying every time I saw a pumpkin seed?

All of my cousin's children are brilliant, oh and bilingual. His wife and I are teaching each other, with the help of a book, to read and write in Dari--she wants to read in her own language. His oldest is one of the very top students in his huge urban high school. Next year he is going to college, to one of the top universities in the world. They gave his mother a Cal Parent pin, which she is still wearing day and night. Nothing will stop this boy, this child of immigrants, from getting what he wants from life. But I still can't believe he was meant to do this without a father. I'm glad I'm Catholic, because I don't have to be perfect. But I'm glad I have family who are Afghans, because I don't have to be brave, either, when the world is a harsh place.

Amir didn't have to be brave--he cried for all the wrong things, he cried for all the small aches and pains of life. He cried because there was no one there to hold him when he did cry. But when the things that really hurt came by, he didn't know that he had someone to go to. This is where women come in in Afghan society--because there is nothing worth living for if all of life is without beauty. This is what Amir found in the end: the permission to not be brave.

Kleo

Mahlia--

I don't know about a Kite Runner bash. I used to fly kites down by the Marina sometimes. If you are in the Bay Area, send me an e-mail at burszt at AOL. Call first, though, Mahlia, because I'll have to see if there is enough extra food for a guest--Afghan meals tend to be skimpy. My Mother still tells the Afghans she won't stay for dinner unless they let her (or me) serve her own plate. She complains that her wrists are not strong enough to hold the plates they fill for her.

I think, though, Mahlia, you wouldn't know my Afghans from any other Afghans you've ever met.

My son loves Persians because we have always had Persian friends and he is addicted to bottom-of-the-pan (golden crisped rice and potatoes cooked at the bottom of the rice pan). When we met an Iranian family in San Diego, he couldn't wait to eat at their house--he was about 6. When we sat down to dinner and the mother brought out a dish of bottom-of-the-pan my son could not contain himself, he actually screamed, "Mom, Mom! It's bottom-of-the-pan, bottom-of-the-pan!" Of course, we were invited back quite often.

Once we went to an Afghan restaurant run by Iranians (who knows why). I don't know all the names of the Afghan food in Dari, so I just described the dishes we wanted without the menu. They were fine with this. Then, my son could tell the people were Iranians, not Afghans, so he said he wanted bottom-of-the-pan, although they did not, of course, have it at the restaurant. They had some relative come to the restaurant while we were eating dinner with some bottom-of-the-pan for him.

Kleo

I was just checking the newspaper for tonight's TV programs and I came across something startling. CPTV (public TV) is showing "Death of a Princess," a Frontline news report that was aired 25 years ago - when the news show was called "World." Here are some excerpts from the newspaper's (Hartford Courant) description of the progam:

"At the time, the report, which was about the public execution of a Saudi princess and her lover for adultery, was far more controversial than anything PBS deals with today. When it was broadcast in Britain, the Saudi government threatened economic sanctions and the breaking of formal diplomatic ties with the U.K. The British ambassador to Saudi Arabia was forced to leave the country. In the U.S., pressure not to air the program came from Congress...and Mobil Oil, which ran ads in the New York Times condemning the film....It was quite unlike any other TV report.....Correspondent Anthony Thomas had become intrigued after a dinner party conversation about the executed princess....Because it [the story] was told to him in confidence, there was no way to get it on film. So he decided on a most unusual way to present his material: a complete re-enactment, with actors hired to portray everyone involved....It wasn't the manner of presentation that caused the controversy; Saudi Arabia claimed it was an attack on Islam and its values. At a time when Iran still held American hostages, 'Death of a Princess' shed light on the plight of women in the Arab world and commented on the nature of journalism."

The role of Sanaubar is an example of one of the Montréal Principles adopted at a meeting of experts December 7, 2002 in Montréal, Canada

"Economic, social and cultural rights have a particular significance for women because as a group, women are disproportionately affected by poverty, and by social and cultural marginalization. Women's poverty is a central manifestation, and a direct result of women's lesser social, economic and political power. In turn, women's poverty reinforces their subordination, and constrains their enjoyment of every other right."

It appears that in this book Hosseini is showing us all sides of women's issues in Afghanistan.

I thought we were still discusing KITE RUNNER, but it seems the focus has switched to Death of a Princess. Why?

The topic has nothing to do with Hosseini's book and the Princess was NOT an Afghan.

I think that it is very easy for humans to throw stones at each other, and at each others' religions. No matter how many times I said that Afghans are not Arabs, it seems that they will be lumped in with Arabs, and Middle Easterners as long as their is an Arab (and Persian and Jewish and Christian) Middle East right beside Afghan and Pakistani and Indian and Uzbek South Asia.

As the book points out, the Taliban, in order to control as they did, had to sell out to Arabs, had to sell their country to Arabs. This discussion of the movie could have been linked to the book. Instead it was seen as an opening to attack the Muslim Faith.

It's easy to pick up the Holy Book of some other Faith and find what is evil and what is wrong in it. It doesn't take much effort. It's been done all over the Internet by all sorts of hate mongers. A copy and paste would be simple.

It would have been just as easy to use the same quotes and the same book to see some good in Islam. This was not done, however.

I think though, that we live in a world, and that we all worship a God, and admire a great Man, whether you believe Him the Son of God as Christians do, or a mere prophet as Muslims and Jews do, Who would ask you not to cast stones, but rather to love each other.

It would be a great day to meet someone of another Faith, and have dinner or lunch or coffee with them, and see that practitioners of the other Faiths of Abraham are not doers of evil, with permission from their Holy Books to be so. The Koran does not give any more permission for terror against women, to bomb and kill babies, than the Bible gives to Christians or Jews.

In fact, it would be a great day to be with another human being, to remember how beautiful the day is, how great God is, how wonderful it is to be in this world, and how good it feels to look with charity upon others who are different.

It's time for me to do just that.

Kleo

The Kite Runner does have some women in the story - the Kite Runner does speak to the treatment of women by the Taliban - a women is stoned to death in the Kite Runner - an example of that process is on TV tonight.

Others reading this book with us have commented on the brutality that is included in the book -

An example of the research done by a High School English class reading the Kite Runner includes jokes that put women in a lower place as well as two sites dealing with the plight of women and Woman's Alliance for Peace. Fremont High School English

The main religion in Afghanistan is the religion of Islam and to try and fathom how women can be treated rather than give a left wing liberal view or a women's lib view it seemed to be more appropriate to go to an impartial authority that is followed by those who believe in the Islamic religion.

Here is the State Department's Fact sheet on Women and Girls in Afghanistan which has not been updated since Bush took office.

Where as here we have a link that was issued in October of 2003 Afghanistan "No one listens to us and no one treats us as human beings": Justice denied to women

The author in his interview includes remarks about women and his plan is to write his next book about women in Afghan society. "If my book generates any sort of dialogue among Afghans , then I think it will have done a service to the community"- Khalid Hosseini

We hear the love and affection both you Mahlia and Kleo share for the people of Afghanistan and it is difficult to read of the dark side of a culture - this dark side is not just particular to Muslims - here in this nation we completely bypass our genocide of Native Americans but we are embarrassed to our toenails when those from other nations bring up the history of race relations in the US.

We scramble because we want our own view or the historical accuracies to be spoken but it is difficult. And so I can truly understand this subject being difficult but the author himself is hoping by writing a book about Afghanistan some of the injustice will be shown from behind the veil of secrecy.

We cannot overlook parts of the book and Sanaubar is a character that is depicted as less worthy by saying not that she ran away with another man but she runs away with singers and dancers - later in the book she is not vindicated - that because of the birth of Hassan she would have to look on the face of a child conceived by Baba and not by Ali - she returns not only showing her scars but is destitute. Had she not been a women the chances are she would not have such a scar and she could be like the beggar without fear of more reprisals.

Her only acceptance is by the child she conceived out of her marriage - we have no idea the circumstances - if was rape or mutual consent between Ali and Baba but she does run away and that suggests she was not filled with joy after the birth of her baby.

Life has changed some for women since the Taliban have been beaten but we know that all warlords are not giving women equal status to men and from reports women still have a long way to go. How much of their plight is because of how the Koran is used to justify their plight is not my call but it is a factor.

Actually, I mentioned the TV broadcast because it make me think of the public execution in The Kite Runner of the two supposed adulterers at the soccer match. (Note, in both cases both woman and man are killed.) I thought that happened in the book because of the extremist Taliban group in power. That doesn't mean I think Afghanistan is an middle eastern or Arab country.

I just think it is interesting, and frightening, to see how extremists in religion ANYWHERE can create terror and death, and often women suffer more than men. I have been particularly unhappy with the swing of America in politics towards the far right, supposedly pushed by the Christian right movement. There has been much in the paper about the possibility of reversal of Roe v Wade and making abortion illegal once again if more conservative judges are placed on the Supreme Court.

Oops, Barbara, we're overlapping.

Sorry Kleo you see this as throwing stones - as I shared above we are aware it is painful to have examined the dark side of any culture - but we cannot over look the dark side and just examine any book as if all is well...

Marnie I believe that was one of the more difficult passages to read in this story and other posters have said they were made uncomfortable reading about all the violence.

There is a quote from Karen Armstrong that I have had on my quote door for years now..."Patriarchy depends upon military violence, and therefore, also on moral justification of its violent structures."

This is painful to read about and to acknowledge but it is part of Afghan history just as dragging, hanging and beating black men is part of the history of the US.

Stretch drive. I've marked a few pages to come back to, and I have some kind things to say for the promising new writer, Khaled Hosseini.

For now, however, I will only say that I've just reached the part where Assef (groan) returns to the narrative and, as it played out (Imagine! John Lennon glasses!), I kept saying, "No, Khaled, no! Don't go there!"

That is, I wish he'd returned to the richer possibilies of Hassan (would require keeping him alive) and let it be with the Assef thing. All I could picture in the Assef/soccer stoning and the meeting with Hassan's boy that followed scenes was Assef with a mustache and the name "Boris" (I'm thinking of that dastardly villain in the old Rocky & Bullwinkle cartoons... Boris Gudonov, was it?). Can you hear the evil cackle now?

But, I might be speaking too hastily as I do not yet know for sure where Hosseini is going with Assef. I can only say, at his juncture, he appears to be going south (which will put him, where... Pakistan?).

Back tomorrow.

Thank you, Joan, I love the way you approach things, not taking for granted you know what the other person is saying but asking if that's right, love that. I think you are right, "even we can't make something out of nothing," I agree but we gave it a good shot in our first outing into reading the voices of a different country.

I don't think I am angry, but if I sound angry it's not about the insertion of violence into the book? Not at all. My problem is with the poor writing and shoddy plot, not the violence. I agree with Mippy who said too many coincidences. (I can't think of another book worse than this one that we've read, actually, Joan? Maybe The Liar's Club)?

That's a super analogy, killing the messenger! I do blame the messenger, (would you think of the book as the messenger or the author as messenger?)

For that matter, have we discussed what we think the message is?

I think the author is the messenger, because, of course, this is ENTIRELY his creation. It's a work of fiction, the people are not real, and the way he chooses to present it makes him both messenger and message, an interesting concept if we had time to pursue it.

Thank you Marni for the notice of another public stoning on TV. I did not have a chance to watch it, but anybody who saw Hotel Rwanda has no problem knowing about Extremists in any country. It might be interesting actually to compare this book with that movie and the way both stories were told.

I haven't read the last quarter of the book. I'm afraid to, no telling who will turn up on the doorstep next but I'll read it today.

I'm going to be interested, Kevin, in what you think.

Barbara asked if we think that Hosseini intended to evoke tears? I don't know, I can't think of too many stops he left out pulling tho, can you? I mean what pathos, realistically, did he leave off?

I am not sure that reading a bad work of fiction about some unpleasant circumstances will make us better people or stop any kind of violence, I think, personally, that the only way violence is stopped is for somebody to be brave, not the opposite, but I need to finish the last part before I can draw any final conclusion. Whether or not we rate this book as a group, I'm going to post my own rating.

Coincidences drive me crazy, too, but the minute I say this, my British friends (all one of them) bring up Dickens. "What about bloody Dickens?" he says (oddly enough, with an accent).

Like Ginny, I've got homework today. Back with my report later.

Re: "Thank you Marni for the notice of another public stoning on TV.....anybody who saw Hotel Rwanda has no problem knowing about Extremists in any country."

So that's it? Because you saw Hotel Rwanda you don't need to find out about extremists anywhere else? I don't know why you're going to bother to finish the book.

I didn't say that, Marni? I was trying to agree with you. I thanked you for bringing it to our attention and agreed with Barbara and I thought, your prior post, that extremists are bad in any country, did I misunderstand then your own comment?

I just think it is interesting, and frightening, to see how extremists in religion ANYWHERE can create terror and death, and often women suffer more than men

If I misunderstood that, I'm sorry. I threw in Hotel Rwanda as another example, not saying I thought I'd not bother with anything else. I actually thought I was agreeing with you? hahaa Sorry I did not see the program!

I've hired a few hawkers to hand out free chill pills to one and all (ahhhh, I'm feeling better already!). Meantime I've finished the book. It was what I call a fast-finishing, high-interest closing. It's easy to see why it has sailed so high as a bestseller because, quite frankly, it engages its readers and tells a good story.

Turns out, since my last post about Assef, that Assef never appears again in the book! I half expected he would surface again in Peshawar or Islamabad because, like Glenn Close in that movie where she kills the kid's rabbit, bad guys surface from bathtubs even after they've been drowned.

Speaking of movies, I think this book is quite cinematic. I don't know if Hosseini wrote with half a mind on Hollywood (or Lollywood, as he would have it), but there's no mistaking the strong flavor of melodrama and Saturday matinees here in his book.

I thought, in fact, of the original Indiana Jones movie put out by George Lucas (Raiders of the Lost Ark). There was a little man, a Nazi, with John Lennon-like glasses and a hat who was after the Ark like Indy. At one point, he reached for a metal talisman that had been heated (by fire? I forget) and burned his hand badly. Later in the movie he surfaces again (in black, of course) and, when he says, "Heil Hitler!" opens a hand whose palm is scarred in the shape of the hot-talisman he reached for years earlier.

Yes, gentle reader, I fully expected Assef to jump out of the hibuscus in Peshawar with his tell-tale wound -- the missing eyeball (or the metal walnut, fully-disfunctional replacement eyeball) -- and attack Amir and Sohrab anew.

It wasn't to be. In fact, the novel wound down nicely with Amir's recovery and visa problems, followed by the drama of would-be suicide and the appropriate closure of kites flying over the windy City by the Bay (a show of hands on the predictability of THAT one???).

You know, many readers (myself included) often don't mind predictability in a novel or a movie. In fact, in Hosseini's defense, they often not only look forward to it, they demand it -- especially of the ending which must be (sigh) happy.

Hosseini delivers, violins swell, and Hollywood agents sign the deal. If he were younger, Omar Sharif would be perfect for the role of Amir. If he were still middle-aged, of Baba! As it stands now, however, he must settle for the role of the aged General, father of Soraya.

Kleo, did you notice on p. 317, that Mr. Fayyaz, Amir's ride to the mosque, says, "The thing about you Afghanis (sic) is that... well, you people are a little reckless." Is Hosseini purposely having the Pakistani gentleman be reckless with his Afghani/Afghan rule? I saw it a couple of times in the book and harked back to your lesson on dollars and sense in Afghanistan.

On p. 297, I have to criticize Hosseini for underestimating his readers wholesale. The cut on Amir's upper lip from the fight with Assef is, as pointed out earlier here, all too obvious in intent. Yet, at the bottom of the paperback copy, Hosseini adds salt to the corned beef by writing "I kept thinking of something else Armand/Dr. Faruqi had said: The impact had cut your upper lip in two, he had said, clean down the middle. Clean down the middle. Like a harelip."

Did he actually believe ANYone in Reader Land was missing the allusion to Hassan? Say it ain't so, Joe.

Coincidental how the man who "bought" Hassan's son was Assef, how this same man was the stone-thrower at the soccer match, how this same man was, in fact, Assef. Another coincidence was running into a beggar in Kabul who once was a university professor who knew and had tea with Amir's long-dead mother.

The movies love moments like these. Hosseini knows what he's doing. And, in defense of coincidences, we all have at least ONE story, don't we? I sure do.

Farid the Driver, too, is of a type frequently seen in the movies, isn't he? The irascible yet streetsmart reluctant assistant who, through hardship and adventure, comes to love and respect our somewhat bumbling hero. In short, a turtle character -- hard shell on the outside, turtle soup on the inside.

Also, before we leave the Realm of the Familiar, with Rahim Khan we get the "dying man's final wish" thing.

Funny, isn't it, how one reader can criticize an author for repetition and derivative characters and plots, while another, more savvy reader can credit the same author for his artful use of motifs and archetypes which depend upon repetition and derivation as their lifeblood?

Ah, the beauty of literature.

I love the moment on p. 201 where Amir wants to whisk Rahim off to America where the best doctors in the world can cure his fatal disease (as if America defies Death!). Rahim responds, "We're a melancholic people, we Afghans, aren't we? Often we wallow too much in ghamkhori and self-pity. We give in to loss, to suffering, accept it as a fact of life, even see it as necessary. Zendagi migzara, we say, life goes on. but I am not surrendering to fate here, I am being pragmatic. I have seen several good doctors here and they have given the same answer. I trust them and believe them. There is such a thing as God's will."

I loved that little speech, almost delivered to Science and Medicine and the Western mindset as a whole, and not just to Amir. Good stuff. And why, oh why, while Rahim spoke of Afghanistan, did I keep thinking of Ireland?

Suffering gives birth to art, is why.

I think we'll hear from Hosseini again. For a first effort, not bad at all. Some promise here for future works, I think. This one couldn't help indulging itself too often in melodrama, clichés, coincidence, and predictability, but that's part of the fun, and it was a lot of fun to read even if it left much to be desired.

I just finished the book and it's sweet, isn't it? You make a lot of good points, Kevin.

The end is charming, like the beginning. I definitely see a difference in the writing, in the beginning and end sections versus the middle, and wonder if the beginning and end were written first and then the middle pieced in, they look like that to ME, but that's only my own opinion.

It's sad and it IS a heartbreaker, this last section, I think we divided the book well.

The adoption policy of the INS is interesting, "to place the child with someone in his own country so his heritage can be preserved." (page 337). I wonder if that policy is ever suspended in wartime, especially in a country as is portrayed here, the narrator says, "What heritage? The Taliban have destroyed what heritage Afghans had." As I was reading that I was thinking about the destruction of the giant Buddhas and that's the next sentence. It makes you wonder what the toll has been over the hundreds of years of history, all you have to do is look at ancient Rome for a partial answer. So many treasures lost forever.

And what a dramatic ending! It ties into a lot of things that people have experienced, maybe not suicide attempts, but certainly having said the right thing too late, that's something a lot of us understand in hospital situations, it's really quite moving. And Amir asks Sohrab for his forgiveness, too.

I liked the comment in the book that life is not a Hindi movie. The author seems to place these comments around almost in self defense. I would like to ask him why he inserted these, they are quite interesting.

I love Hindi movies, am quite addicted to them, it's a shame life is not like a Hindi movie, but this book is more like one than not, I think.

A lovely ending, in many ways, lots of plot ends tied up: and some changes. Amir finds quite a bit of courage, he stands up to the General Sahib, he tries his best to get the child out of the country, he tries to make amends to the child for how he treated his father, he takes the child home to safety after a scare, it's almost a different book, here at the end. Amir becomes project manager for a hospital project, his own initiative, Sohrab is safe, and with a family, and a Sunday miracle of a small smile occurs, and it ends as it began, with kite running.

I liked the "For you, a thousand times over," on the last page. That's been repeated before, by Hassan, one time on page 70 where it's described as a "promise" that he kept to run the kite one more time, nice touch on the symbolism there and what it means.

I am not sure on the "savvy" readers, Kevin, I think that each person can address the issues in the book as he likes, without labels on his reading expertise; let's just let each person have his own opinion, whether or not we agree with it. I think we're all savvy readers here.

When you sing, that is, when you perform on stage musically, they say it doesn't matter how many missteps you make during the performance, all that matters is how you end. Finish big. I've forgotten the saying, but that's the import: always leave them with a smile.

Is that true in books, also?

Kevin, I like your use of "gentle reader," are you a Stephen King fan?

Fan? I am Stephen King.

P.S. I use the word "savvy" to mean the reader who knows how to counter most any point, no matter how damning and inescapable it may seem. I fully realize that we all share a lot of savvy faire, as they say in France.

P.S. ² I see I've jumped the gun by two days in discussing the book's ending. For that oversight, I am sorry a thousand times over.

no you haven't jumped the gun, Barbara asked us to go ahead, so you're fine. We are looking at the end and the entire book now.

Gentle reader, such a Kingism, I've been wondering about you, and now we know! haaha Loved your On Writing. I agree with your opinion of Shirley Jackson.

Barbara's put an excellent question in the heading:

#8. What is the great strength — or the most noticeable weakness — of the book?

That is an excellent question, I want to think about it and come back, what would you all say?

Yikes - after a bump in the road yesterday the passengers hit their head on the soft ceiling of the vehicle and the posts are off to the races - grand...

Yep, tears a plenty and the ending ahhhh weeell- we have the silent Sohrab and the barren Soraya, whose hair smells like apples and Amir hoping to coax more than the glimmer of a smile from the face of Sohrab. Rahim faded into the depths of Afghanistan or maybe Pakistan, we assume never to be heard from again, the General still putsing around and we assume Soraya's mom will continue to supply them all with her latest cooked tid bit. Bella Familia...!

Did see the show last night and what struck me is there were as many different versions of what happened to this girl as there were folks who were all supposed to be on the inside knowing it all...reminded me of discussing literature - as many interpretations as there are readers -

But the biggie for me was the statement that I find never seems to fail and that is how, there is always someone who blames the victim - ~~ if she had tried to leave the country under a burka and poised as a servant instead as a man she would have been successful and therefore the truth is to some that some folks WANT to call attention to themselves - sheesh hindsight is grand isn't it --

Here is a nice site all about the "Lion of Panjsher"

He "embodied all Afghanistan’s tribulations and sufferings, all her fierce pride and independence, all her faith and hope, all her courage and endurance. Like Afghanistan, he had faced hardship, disappointment, and failure. But also like Afghanistan, he had hard-won victories and glorious successes, bountiful blessings and triumphant conquests. Like his country, he had been laid low but not defeated."

Is this a description for our Bella Familia do you think?

Bella Familia? I went to school with her. Nice Italian girl.

"Gentle reader" predates King by many, many years. Who started it -- the Victorians (they're always starting everything, and usually in hiding). I'll have to research that.

And I'll be back, Barbara, with some blather familia later on.

P.S. OK, I give up. What's my opinion on Shirley Jackson? Curiosity is Haunting me.

KEVIN, just for the sake of accuracy let me say, there is a "g" in the Italian word "famiglia".

Thanks Traude - Kevin ~~ Italian - Spanish - ahhh they all live near the Mediterranean and like their wine and have flags to the Virgin from Bethlehem...

Oh (ahem), I of course (ahem) knew that (ahem) about the Famiglia family, Traude. You see, I speak Spanglish, Franglais, and Italiglish, none of which observe the "g" construction in the past imperfect conditional composé
(at least on Wednesdays).

Pour more wine, Barbara. I think I'm in deep now.

Ginny, I liked Hosseini's use of imagery, although he was sporadic with it. And I think he has important things to say politically. Americans tend to prefer separating politics from their arts like they do church and state, but other countries in the world are the opposite, and I think Hosseini mentions the Afghans' love for politics, or at least the discussion of politics.

Oddly I think the plot was a strength and a weakness. As soon as I figure that out myself, I'll explain.

Boy it would take a brave soul to jump into your discussion, but I have certainly learned a lot by lurking. I loved the book; so has everyone I know. Guess I don't travel with a very savy crowd... The author spoke to a group of high school students and was most impressive in the way he expressed his feelings, his reasons for writing and the manner in which he dealt with their questions. It was apparent that by reading this book they had learned a great deal about a place they knew little if anything about. There's nothing wrong with a "story" as a vehicle for learning at any age.

Welcome paulita, and thanks for unlurking. (Playing Munchkin song in background to tempt other lurkers: "Come out, come out, wherever you are...!")

Yes, this book IS important in that it reveals the Taliban in a way only fiction can -- much more effective than a politician or a human rights activist could, and look at the people he's reaching! Savvy people! And even me!

Please, please, please don't give that SAVVY comment a life of its own.

I explained it once to Ginny, didn't I?

And I tried my hardest to be savvy about it, too.

Must I book myself before high school audiences across the nation and explain myself repeatedly?

(I have a feeling I'm going to have to do time in one of Dante's Circles of Hell -- the mezzanine, no doubt -- for that savvy crack.)

Ginny: I'm just catching up. I do apologize. I thought you were being sarcastic. I guess I was cranky. I just took one of Kevin's chill pills and am feeling better.

Welcome paulita! glad you risked putting your toe in the sea...and in fact braved diving in head first - everyone contributes what they will and we listen to everyone - so stay brave - we are all here for you.

Interesting that you say High School because I have found many high school web sites with the best information about the book - what a great way to learn history, geography and current events - far different than high school years ago isn't it...not that teachers wouldn't have been willing but as I can remember there wasn't much written that grabbed you about WWII and the Korean conflict like this book grabs - I think we were still reeling after WWII and Ann Frank's Diary was not even published yet. But better yet, to me the internet has opened the windows and doors to a classroom so that students are not just dependent on their teacher and the school library.

Kevin if you get the plot figured please share - While you are at it how about having a nice "thunk" on -- what was the purpose of all that stuff about America and the General and then Soraya being barren -

When I review the story in my head to me the action all happens in Afghanistan - and yet, all that about selling second hand garage sale stuff - what was that all about??

Amir says in his Afghanistan trip that he is an author and so Sohrab is going to a different America with a father figure who is an author not a street vendor - it was like we were taken on a side tour with all that - oh it explained further the culture as it relates to men and women meeting and arranging to be married but what matter to the story did that make or, what did it matter to the story how the two older men, Baba and the General handled their lives here in America.

It was almost like Hamlet taking us on a tour of Denmark just to let us know how his mother could be in a position to marry so soon. Is the tour of America like Hamlet's ghost coming to whisper what the ending should look like I wonder?

Certainly if it was a backdrop to appreciate Kabul when Amir returns it would have been easy enough to simply compare it to the Kabul of his childhood - and so what was that all about do you think...?

Truth (or reasonable facsimile thereof) be told, I think Hosseini put America in the plot because America was in his plot. What's so endearing about first books (well, endearing to me) is how they wear their heart and their pedigree on their sleeves -- they often directly reflect not only the experiences but the very souls of their makers. Hosseini came to America, so Amir must as well. I think, then, that Hosseini envisioned this an "immigrant's story" but, as you correctly point out, it's truly an "Afghan's story." Meaning: it could have been as successful or more if it stayed in southwestern Asia.

As for the quick and dirty explanation of my plot conundrum, I think this book soared up the bestseller charts despite itself. Certainly insular Americans aren't crashing bookstore doors to read about extremists like the Taliban or (alas) even about religions they need to know so much more about (the Muslim faith). The reason high school teachers have embraced the book (as they have, say, Tim O'Brien's The Things They Carried and all that it says about Vietnam) is NOT the reason the book became a success.

Hosseini is a storyteller. He can tell a yarn. Just as Amir entertains the fascinated Hassan as a youth, so Hosseini entertains us. This ability is not to be made light of, as so many modern-day books seem to forget a basic precept -- plot matters. Yes, I think some authors get so caught up in MFA Writers Workshop "high art" that they forget storytelling's lineage going all the way back to the oral tradition. A Thousand and One Nights (or is it Arabian Nights)?

However, plot can be a double-edged sword. It is, as stated, such an ancient and familiar art that it is steeped in traditions and conventions. "There is nothing new under the sun" as Ecclesiastes tells us, and thus the timeless challenge for every writer -- how to make novelty from the familiar, how to spin something new from the thread of ancient tradition.

In this respect, Hosseini does not succeed so well. As I stated yesterday, it is more noticeable to us in movies and television scripts than in books, but how often can we recite the next event before it even happens? Hosseini reaches for a wellworn recipe card for success in cooking his plot. For wardrobes, he passes out black hats and white (or, to put it in more American terms, Indian loincloths and John Wayne cowboy suits).

At times it's almost a morality play, an allegory, an ancient and time-honored tale of right and wrong and redemption. There's nothing wrong with this, it's just that it automatically separates readers who demand (the appearance of) novelty from readers who appreciate the familiarity of the old storyteller's art.

Well, whatever. Sometimes I try to clarify and feel like I'm only muddying the waters more. I'm getting that creeping feeling now. Can anyone else make sense of this plot thing?

Marni, oh great, thanks for that, I was running around my own personal Inferno worrying. Haahaha Super, yes, as the guy said in the movie Oh Brother Where Art Thou, "I'm with you fellers," even tho we may have differing opinions on any book.

Hahah Kevin, I don't think you need to excoriate yourself further, (at least you're in the Mezzanine and not with Brutus and Cassius) hahahaa

Barbara, what was that about? I don't know. We would have to admit we now know more about Afghanistan than we did, so that's points FOR the book. Since it is a work of fiction we, or at least I am not sure however, that everything he relates is the case, so that's a puzzlement, I guess we'll have to take it at face value until we know better.

I just love Question 8, Barbara. I guess it's because I can't answer it. I keep thinking about it. If you choose, then (try it) it forces all kinds of things out, I liked Kevin's and Barbara's thoughts. I can't seem to stop thinking about Question 8.

First I'll say well the strongest thing was XXX but then that throws my "weakest thing" off. And it can't be BOTH, can it? So on we go.

I really have enjoyed our own little pilgrimage thru the Inferno here, we've been all over Dante's world, haven't we? Not sure which level we're on, but, like Odysseus, we're about to emerge, it's been quite a trip.

The strengths of the book (OR the strongest thing IN the book): an excellent question. Would you say, then, that the strength would be what you would remember about the book the most? Or not? I am not sure if I tend to recall the good stuff or the bad stuff: what a QUESTION!

At this point I have no answer. On either one!

Kevin we were posting together, does the early bird really get the worm? hahaha

You really must read Stephen King's On Writing, I could not tell it like he does. His literary criticism is quite amazing.

Make sense of the plot? I felt a detachment from the plot and from the main character. The further the book went the greater the distance was. The author's habit of putting in so much foreshadowing as if it WERE one of those old cliffhanger movies, where you'd go every week (Flash Gorden, Poor Pauline), and the disclaimers which he put in, up to the end, for ME and maybe me only, caused a break in my "willing suspension of disbelief," and caused me to remember HIM and be conscious of the outlines OF the plot. I guess, in answer to YOUR question, that's MY "greatest weakness" in the book, but it's not the most annoying. Still thinking, this is HARD!

And what makes it hard is the last section IN the book which was excellent, at least to me.

I actually own a copy of King's On Writing but admit I've only browsed through it. It strikes me as the type of book you don't read cover-to-cover (or "coast-to-coast" as I like to say), but then lots of non-fiction books (and not a few fiction ones) strike me that way (assault and battery in the stacks, I call it).

I am a morning person, to be sure, up at 4 or 5 without fail and without alarm. Alarming, isn't it? Night owls are strange exotics, to me. Whoo are they kidding?

Re: the ending. I think you liked it better because it calmed down and actually got away from the whole plot device kicked off by the rape. With both Hassan and Assef out of the picture (and Amir having journeyed through his own Dante's Hell known as "Assef's Afghanistan" which serves as such dark contrast to "Hassan's Afghanistan"), the book was lifted and freed.

In fact, losing the extremes of Hassan and Assef was like shackles falling off the book's hands. Like a soaring kite over San Francisco Bay, it was a case of: "Free at last, free at last, thank Allah almighty we're free at last!"

Speaking of "Hassan's Afghanistan" vs. "Assef's Afghanistan," do any readers feel that this is one of those books that looks, Janus-like, to the past and the present by detailing the irrevocable changing of a country?

There are many books like this which show the passing of the guard from, say, a country run by the nobility to a country run by (pick a card, any card) Republicans, Communists, Socialists, Fascists, military dictatorships, etc., etc.

I guess I'm still struggling to see what is going on here. Yes, the plot is over-contrived and amateurish. We are picking recent books which haven't stood the test of time, written, in this case, by someone who is not a professional writer. In other cases, we will meet writers we know very little about. We are going to get some amateurish writing.

So? You aren't just saying the book is bad: it seems to get on some of your "last nerve" as the saying goes. Why? It seems that you aren't just disappointed that it isn't better, it really really iritates you and I can't see why. Was the rest of the book so bad, and the last section so good? When did it start to get good? What am I missing here?

Mahlia, Kleo, did it affect you that way?

Is that addressed to me, Joan? In that case, if so, the ending erases the irritation for me and leaves me, as I said above, perplexed?

As we here are about our honest reflections on the book, a point that was made much of when it occured IN the book, then that's my honest opinion, what's yours? I'd love to know? I'm only one opinion, and I agree: let's hear all of them. We don't seek consensus, and you don't have to agree with me, it's immaterial if you do or not: let's hear from everybody.

What's your take on the strongest or the weakest point? Did you see anything different in the end and the middle? What are your thoughts?

I am not sure why I had the reaction I did, I'll have to think about that question.

You make a super point, Joan, about the quality of new fiction we may be reading!

It's hard for me to HAVE an opinion now, and I don't know why!

Ginny, I fully respect your right to be irritated by a book. I think it's Number 11 in the Bill of Rights.

I used to get irritated when people said they were irritated by books that I loved, but then I snapped out of it and realized that I myself have been guilty of the same thing in the past and, no doubt, somewhere there is someone who loved the very book I was getting worked up over -- so who am I to get irritated at someone who gets irritated by my favorite book (or even a book I like)?

Hope this makes sense (or dollars, or Afghanis).

"There's nothing wrong with a "story" as a vehicle for learning at any age." -- says Paulita. Hang on, Paulita, I'm joining you in the shallow end of the pool. (That's not meant to be a dirty word -- only that as an up-to-now lurker I'm not going out to tread water in the deep end with the big kids.) I agree with Paulita's statement, and perhap's that one of the strengths of the book -- that in addition to being a good, absorbing "read," it has opened many eyes/minds to an unfamiliar culture. I thought he did a good job of presenting the Afghan culture, and now want to read more, such as the new book out by Ms. Crew (Ron Howard's wife.)

I don't know about amateurish writing. Sure, he hits you over the head with the idea that this a story of atonement, redemption, and I was continually reminded of William Maxwell's thesis that you don't need to feel guilty about your sins as a youth, and of Tyler's Saint Maybe, and I'm sure there are a host more. But, as has been mentioned earlier, in Foster and the new whatshisname, there are only so many plots in literature. Contrary to what some of you have said, I don't see this as a coming-of-age novel. And also, contrarily, I like reading about child protagonists. In fact, I think the first section of the book, up until the aftermath of the rape, is the strongest part of the book.

When I got to DC the end of last month, DIL told me it's predictable, lots of foreshadowing, contrived. And she was right. No doubt most all of us knew Baba was Hassan's father. And I left it for a while when Assef came on the scene again. That was a bit much. Like DIL's mother, I liked the book, but I didn't love it. Will I read Hosseini again (and I think he has a new one out)? Probably. It's interesting and fun to see how new authors change and grow.

Now, all the rest of you lurkers out there, come on in. The water's fine.

I've noticed a number of posts about Assef's reappearance on the scene (when he was in the Taliban) and how contrived this was etc. It didn't bother me. I was waiting for him because there was unfinished business. It had to happen. He was the big villain in the first section of the book; he had been humiliated in front of his friends by Hassan, and I waited to see when he would get his revenge. (I thought it would have happened sooner.)

The narrator describes Sohrab as looking exactly like his father. I felt that Assef selected Sohrab from the orphanage deliberately because he recognized him. This was his revenge against Hassan. Who knows, maybe Assef had something to do with Hassan's death in the street, too. He certainly knew who owned the house.

So, I was particularly glad when Sohrab revenged his father by taking out Assef's eye with the sling shot. An eye for an eye! (Now this Hosseini laid on thick - you knew it was going to happen because he mentioned about a zillion times what an expert shot Sohrab was, just like dad, and how he always carried the sling shot around with him. And there was the scene where Amir decribed in detail the table with the brass balls - the exact same table as in Assef's house.)

The Kite Runner plot reminds me of the famous stories that Amir read/told to Hassan. In many ways it's a tale of great warriors conquering great enemies. Maybe you could call the tale "The Sultans of Kabul."

Marni writes: I felt that Assef selected Sohrab from the orphanage deliberately because he recognized him. This was his revenge against Hassan.

I wondered about this. When I read it, I was under the impression that Assef didn't realize Sohrab was Hassan's son, but I'd have to go back and find key sections to read again.

Pedln -- Is this a pool, then? I always do terribly in office pools, meaning I'm a popular attraction to the guy collecting the money.

-- Kevin "Shallow Wallet" Freeman

P.S. Shall we create a pool to see who gets Post #600? Dollar a guess.

Interesting to see posts referring to Stephen King's writing. Now here's a guy who writes stirring tales of good vs evil, of great warriors conquering great evil enemies. I'm a total King fan and have a large personal collection. Many a person has called his writings bunk. (And some are. You can tell when he's cranking one out fast for money and to meet a deadline.) But many of his tales are fabulous. Have you noticed how many of his heros are boys? Like in "It," or "Stand By Me." And there are almost always bullies who get it in the end.

Kevin: On page 279 (paperback) the author write about Amir first look at Sorhab, in Assef's house: "The resemblance was breathtaking. Disorienting. Rahim Khan's Polaroid hadn't done justice to it. The boy had his father's round moonface, his pointy stub of a chin, his twisted, seashell ears, and the same slight frame...etc."

Then on page 281, after you see Assef fondling Sorhab, Assef says: "I've been wondering," the Talib said, his bloodshot eyes peering at me over Sohrab's shoulder. "Whatever happened to old Babalu, anyway?"......."Here's something I'll bet you never knew about me: I never forget a face. Not ever."

Well, Kevin, the one thing I did predict was that Hosseini would use Afghani again (he used it once earlier in the book, also) immediately after I posted that comment to you about Afghans/Americans/afghanis/dollars. And, indeed, the very moment I turned off the computer and headed to the book to finish, there is was in Black & White: AFGHANI AFGHANI AFGHANI.

Yes, I don't mind predictability. But you reminded me of something else, that I should have seen: this is an Afghan story. This is how Afghans tell stories: they're predictable, because Afghans want to know the endings before they will read it or listen to the story. Afghans are story tellers. Hosseini told an Afghan story, not an American one. When we read other literature from elsewhere in the world, I hope we will be reading their stories, not about them dressed up for Americans.

Oh, Hosseini mentions the thing about movie endings. This has driven me insane about Afghans all my life. Afghans say about me: she doesn't want to know how a movie ends (well, how does she decide to watch it, then?).

Lollywood is the Pakistani movie industry, Bollywood the Indian, Hollywood the American. There are tons of Indian and Pakistani movies in America with English subtitles. I watch Pakistani and Indian movies and soaps with one of my cousins and she interprets for me as we watch, although I can follow the basic Hindi and Urdu. All South Asian movies (well, all the hundreds I've seen) have predictable over-the-top plots just like this.

Hosseini has already sold the rights to his book.

Kleo

INS adoption policies hold true especially during times of war. It's sad, but one reason behind the policies was to prevent the sexual trafficking of children during times of internal strife.

Good call, Ginny, on this being more like a Hindi movie than not. If you are addicted to them, you see that this is the style of story telling in South Asia--modern Hindi books are like this, too.

Kleo

"When I review the story in my head to me the action all happens in Afghanistan - and yet, all that about selling second hand garage sale stuff - what was that all about??

Amir says in his Afghanistan trip that he is an author and so Sohrab is going to a different America with a father figure who is an author not a street vendor - it was like we were taken on a side tour with all that - oh it explained further the culture as it relates to men and women meeting and arranging to be married but what matter to the story did that make or, what did it matter to the story how the two older men, Baba and the General handled their lives here in America.

It was almost like Hamlet taking us on a tour of Denmark just to let us know how his mother could be in a position to marry so soon. Is the tour of America like Hamlet's ghost coming to whisper what the ending should look like I wonder? "

All the stuff in America was just about Amir's life, about his growing up without becoming a man, because of his failure to address his inner turmoil. It's the story. Sure, it could have been a short story, instead of an novel, by not including this. And Hamlet could have neglected the dead king's ghost, I suppose. I guess it's not really clear what story is being told, in this book, with the back and forth. In some ways. But Hamlet is the king of ambiguities, in fact the great intrigue of the play is in not knowing why so much is part of the story--was Gertrude guilty, too? Of what? Why and what did Ophelia actually do? Did Hamlet love her or use her?

I think that, ultimately, this is a story about a man becoming a man. Part of showing his becoming a man is showing his failure to live with himself, to come to terms with what he did. It seems to me that it is necessary to show the failure, in order to understand the coming to terms. Without the middle, would we say that was a satisfying story, or wonder he bothered?

Another part of this story is to show life in America for Afghans. Afghans came to America because Afghanistan was torn to shreds. This is the life they live in America--from proud merchants of the Silk Road empires, to flea market vendors in San Jose.

Kleo

"Hosseini is a storyteller. He can tell a yarn. Just as Amir entertains the fascinated Hassan as a youth, so Hosseini entertains us. This ability is not to be made light of, as so many modern-day books seem to forget a basic precept -- plot matters. Yes, I think some authors get so caught up in MFA Writers Workshop "high art" that they forget storytelling's lineage going all the way back to the oral tradition. A Thousand and One Nights (or is it Arabian Nights)? Kevin"

I think you are totally right in this, Kevin. He told a great story. There wasn't much plot. I don't demand the same thing from all books, I read. I will read his next book.

Kleo

Hey, looks like I get 600 -- unless someone beats me to it.

Weaknesses of the book have been talked to death. I agree with everyone, but I would like to defend it.

Strengths of the book: I don't want to seem shallow, but I think Kevin said most of them. The strengths are:

He knows how to tell a story.

The movement of the story allows him to portray many different aspects of being afghan: life in Kabul before the Russians, a little of life under the Russians, life as an established successful man who becomes an immigrant with nothing, life as a "second generation immigrant with one foot in both cultures, life under the Taliban, a little of life as a poor semi-rural family (where Amir spends the night). As such is is really good for our purpose of learning about a new (to most of us) place.

I found his writing very pictorial. I feel (rightly or wrongly) that I have a sense, a feel, for all of these lives he portrayed that I could never have gotten from reading history. This, in the context, was more important to me than the fact that the characters were cardboard.

If I had read an analogous story about Americans, that depiction of the setting would not have been important to me, since I would have taken the setting for granted, and I too would have focused on the weak characterization and plot. But my purpose in reading this book was different. I suspect his purpose in writing it was different too. I really don't expect one writer to do everything well. (even those far greater than he is. Look at the weaknesses in plot and characterization in "Anna Karenina"). I'm perfectly willing to take different things from different books -- to take what the author has to give, and leave the rest behind.

Analogous on a lower literary level are the detective stories of Tony Hillerman, which are very weak in plot and especially in characterization, but vividly convey the author's love of the land and culture he is portraying.

I also like (as Kevin mentioned) that the author is IN this book. A friend pointed out that many of the books that get a lot of critical acclaim are ones where the author distances himself from the characters. "Waiting" is a good example. That's fine, but it's not my style. I want to wade in it up to my armpits with the author. And I did.

For those who just didn't like Amir, and couldn't relate to him, this was a downside. I had no trouble relating to Amir -- I have the same tendency he does to agonize endlessly over every mean bad thing I have ever done, and look for ways "to be good again".

I liked the ending a lot. We don't know. There is a little, but only a little, hope. This, I'm sure, is a statement about Afghanistan, not just about the boy.

JoanK - 03:59am Apr 21, 2005 PST (#592 of 602) "The journey of a thousand miles starts with a single oy"..... David Bader I guess I'm still struggling to see what is going on here. Yes, the plot is over-contrived and amateurish. We are picking recent books which haven't stood the test of time, written, in this case, by someone who is not a professional writer. In other cases, we will meet writers we know very little about. We are going to get some amateurish writing.

So? You aren't just saying the book is bad: it seems to get on some of your "last nerve" as the saying goes. Why? It seems that you aren't just disappointed that it isn't better, it really really iritates you and I can't see why. Was the rest of the book so bad, and the last section so good? When did it start to get good? What am I missing here?

Mahlia, Kleo, did it affect you that way?

I think it's an Afghan story. I know that because of the nature of books I have read in here in the past, I was hoping it was literature, high literature, not just something entertaining. I think in some ways it will stand the test of time.

However, I appreciate the book more now that Kevin has posted what I should have seen from the beginning: this is an Afghan story. It is told by an Afghan storyteller. It is told in the tradition of Afghan stories. In Dari or Pashto, or Urdu, it would blend seamlessly into thousands of years of storytelling.

We are recommending books that have not stood the test of time, as you point out Joan. In the case of this book, I don't think anyone had read it, maybe Traude, before it was voted on. This is a great risk.

But, I have to ask, how bad could the book have been, since we all finished it?

Again, most of the complaints seem to deal with the Afghan story telling style. Afghans tell stories over-the-top, they have dreadful coincidences, they are predictable.

Life in Afghanistan is harsh and the only predictable thing is that death will come far too young and too cruel to most of the Afghans living there. Why would Afghans tell high drama? Why would Afghans relish the unpredictable when their whole lives are ruined by the unpredictability and cruelty of life?

I think the only way to get a satisfactory story telling style is to stick with old literature from your own country. Although I listen to Afghans tell stories at least once a week, I don't read Afghan literature, I read largely Western literature. I was hoping for what I am familiar with in my reading. I got the story telling tradition I am most familiar with and didn't really see it, because I was so expecting the other.

This is how Afghans tell stories. Hosseini biggest failure may be this. But it would have been an even greater failure to have not done this, because Afghans are the ones who have Afghan stories to tell.

Kleo

Thanks, Marni, for those quotes from p. 279 and 281. The only doubt I have about the quote you cite ("Here's something I'll bet you never knew about me: I never forget a face. Not ever.") is that Assef has never seen Sohrab's face. Amir makes the observation about the incredible resemblance, but Amir's familiarity with Hassan was obviously greater than Assef's.

Also, on p. 285, Assef asks Amir twice why he wants the boy. If Assef knew, wouldn't he let on? He seems to hold back nothing else. And yet, Hosseini leaves it unclear.

So I guess until proven otherwise, I'm going to hold that Assef doesn't know (though it's equally reasonable, I suppose, to hold the opposite).

Kleo, Post #600 Door Prize Winner writes, "This is how Afghans tell stories: they're predictable, because Afghans want to know the endings before they will read it or listen to the story. Afghans are story tellers. Hosseini told an Afghan story, not an American one. When we read other literature from elsewhere in the world, I hope we will be reading their stories, not about them dressed up for Americans."

Ah, but now we're getting to the crux of matters, the gist, the raison d'être for this club's debut in the first place. How are we alike? How are we different? Why are we alike? Why are we different? Why can't we all just get along? How does nationalism and/or religion trump humanism and/or feelings and sensibilities common to all of us?

All by way of saying that -- although this IS an Afghan story -- I'm not so sure Americans and Afghans (or ANY national, for that matter) differ at least on this count. As I said in an earlier post, focus group after focus group has shown that American movie audiences relish (hold the ketchup) predictability and especially demand a happy ending. I would venture to say it's even more true of women than men, women being more sensitive and peaceful and reasonable, as a general rule (which will probably get me in trouble with the savvy crowd, but there you have it).

So yes and no, similarity and difference, and how's that for muddying the waters and sort of, kind of contradicting myself (which other people are usually happy to do, but it's a slow day, so why not pick on myself?)

Everything the Kite Runner said about life under the Taliban is right her, in this photo that Barbara posted before the discussion began. I didn't need to read a word of what he wrote about Sohrab. It is all in this face. But I needed to hear that this boy might smile, just a little, sometime.

AFGHAN BOY UNDER THE TALIBAN

"I've noticed a number of posts about Assef's reappearance on the scene (when he was in the Taliban) and how contrived this was etc. It didn't bother me. I was waiting for him because there was unfinished business. It had to happen. He was the big villain in the first section of the book; he had been humiliated in front of his friends by Hassan, and I waited to see when he would get his revenge. (I thought it would have happened sooner.)" Marni

Brilliant!

Kleo

Kevin: Regarding "Assef has never seen Sohrab's face" - You lost me here. I must have missed something. How is it that Assef has never seen Sohrab's face? Isn't he the one who "bought" him from the orphanage? Isn't he the one who is making him dress up like a girl and wear makeup etc?

Boy, four people posted while I was writing my post: i thought I wouls be #600, and I wasn't even close.

"If I had read an analogous story about Americans, that depiction of the setting would not have been important to me, since I would have taken the setting for granted, and I too would have focused on the weak characterization and plot.

...

I liked the ending a lot. We don't know. There is a little, but only a little, hope. This, I'm sure, is a statement about Afghanistan, not just about the boy. " JOAN

The settings didn't bother me, as someone who is very familiar with them. I have been to far more Afghan weddings and funerals and gatherings in my lifetime than Americans, because Afghans gather all of the time, and because Afghan families are huge and outnumber the Americans in my family in the Bay Area by about 250 to 1. Hosseini included a lot of details in his settings, that put one into Afghan culture. He also excluded tons of details--it made me think, instead of how contrived the plot was, what and why he included certain things.

I really appreciated the settings, because I think most folks in here have never been to an Afghan wedding. I hope people enjoyed this picture from the book.

Yes, I'm sure it was a statement about Afghanistan, too. I liked this.

Kleo

Marni writes, "Kevin: Regarding "Assef has never seen Sohrab's face" - You lost me here. I must have missed something. How is it that Assef has never seen Sohrab's face? Isn't he the one who "bought" him from the orphanage? Isn't he the one who is making him dress up like a girl and wear makeup etc?"

What I mean is, Assef doesn't take Sohrab from the orphanage because he recognizes him as Hassan's son. It's just a boy he's selecting. It's not a case of Assef entering the orphanage and saying: "Wait a minute, that Hazara looks something like another I knew long ago in Kabul..." Instead it's just a case of "I'll take that boy."

Thus, when Amir surfaces to buy this boy back, Assef is confused as to why this should be.

Hope this helps to explain my thinking (which often requires a lot of explanation).

Kleo -- Agree about the setting descriptions. It's where Hosseini plays his imagery card so well.

Joan -- Sorry about the door prize. Probably you have enough doors anyway.

Joan: I like your statement, too. "There is a little, but only a little, hope. This, I'm sure, is a statement about Afghanistan, not just about the boy. "

My husband said to me the minute he finished reading The Kite Runner that Sohrab was a symbol of Afghanistan. I agree. It seems to be one of the main statements that the author is making.

For one thing, Sohrab is a mixture of cultures, part Hazara, part Pashtun, part Shi'a, part Sunni. Sohrab has had the good and the bad of Afghanistan. He had a wonderful family, a warm loving relationship with his father who taught him many things. His parents were murdered. He was orphaned. He was enslaved and terribly abused. He was "freed" but then was in limbo. Promises made to him were broken. He committed suicide and he nearly died. He couldn't speak and was paralyzed, in a sense. He had the American experience. Finally, he begins to participate in a joyous kite flying expression of Afghanistan. He gives a flicker of smile which suggests there might be hope that he can be saved.

All of these things happened to the country of Afghanistan. But Hosseini is telling us Afghanistan has hope to thrive again despite its current affairs and tumultuous history.

Anyway, that's how I feel about the book.

I still am not certain why the author showed both Assef and Amir laughing while they were being dreadfully beaten. There must be a relationship.

Assef describes being kicked by his Poleh-Charkhi jailor. Assef said that he had had a kidney stone which passed during the torture. He started laughing. The harder he laughed, the harder he was kicked. Assef said, "I kept laughing and laughing because suddenly I KNEW THAT HAD BEEN A MESSAGE FROM GOD: HE WAS ON MY SIDE. HE WANTED ME TO LIVE FOR A REASON."

During Amir's beating by Assef, Amir says, "I laughed because I saw that, in some hidden nook in a corner of my mind, I'd even been looking forward to this. I remembered the day on the hill I had pelted Hassan with pomegranates and tried to provoke him....I hadn't been happy and I hadn't felt better, not at all. But did now. My body was broken....but I felt healed. Healed at last. I laughed."

Different reasons for laughing apparently. Now I'm wondering if they both felt "God wanted them to live for a reason." I don't know. What do you think?

Yes, Marni, Afghans are the most hopeful people on the planet. When I first read this poem by Czeslaw Milosz called "Hope" I immediately thought of Afghans:

HOPE (Rescue)

Hope is with you when you believe ... That all things you have ever seen here Are like a garden looked at from a gate.

You cannot enter. But you're sure it's there.

I just posted this while listening to an interview with the author. He just said he "came back from Kabul with hope," after visiting for the first time, soon after finishing the book.

There is something else about Afghans. Hosseini is talking about how awful Sarajevo must have been for the people, that is what Kabul reminded him of. I have seen pictures of both, they look hopeless. But it's hard for me to ever imagine any more God-forsaken country in the world than Afghanistan. Yet Afghans always have a place in their heart to look at someone worse off, or someone they imagine worse off.

KUSP Interview with Kite Runner Author

(You gotta scroll down a bit.)

Kleo

Marni:

During Amir's beating by Assef, Amir says, "I laughed because I saw that, in some hidden nook in a corner of my mind, I'd even been looking forward to this. I remembered the day on the hill I had pelted Hassan with pomegranates and tried to provoke him....I hadn't been happy and I hadn't felt better, not at all. But did now. My body was broken....but I felt healed. Healed at last. I laughed."

Assef is simply providing Amir with what Hassan refused to provide back in the pomegranate scene, remember? Good things (like getting beaten this side of your life) come to those who wait, apparently.

Very old school and eye-for-an-eye indeed for Amir to believe that a physical beating is necessary to amend for cowardice.

Thanks for the link, Kleo.

Kleo: That was so neat being able to listen to the interview. Thanks!!! Interesting that the author said he wrote the novel and then the themes emerged.

I also enjoyed listening to the pronunciation of some of the names and other words. I had been pronouncing them to myself, just guessing who to say them. (I was wrong.)

My goodness quicker 'n scat a real gully-washer of posts all in one day - so far 30 posts IN ONE DAY!

The interview with Khaled Hosseini was lovely to hear - as a result of listening I could not help but be taken again with the concept of a Triangle between Baba, Amir and Hassan which then seems to allow our minds to pick up one triangle after the other of characters reacting to each other.

We can only guess how close to the explanation of an Afghan wedding this site offers us Modern Afghan Wedding was the basis for the wedding between Amir and Soraya.

Ah the laughter bit is up for grabs again - the opposites - the Janus of war and peace - Assef and Amir united in their reaction to pain and the fear of death by laughter.

Reminds me of a snippit of a war poem by Rupert Brooke

There are waters blown by changing winds to laughter
And lit by the rich skies, all day. And after,
Frost, with a gesture, stays the waves that dance
And wandering loveliness. He leaves a white
Unbroken glory, a gathered radiance,
A width, a shining peace, under the night.

War and strife the synonym for the Universal Fire gift from the Gods - The glimpses of strife the book offers is not a picture of modern warfare and so the old symbolism of war, as an expression in hunt, rape, rapine, and battle where men developed their competitive nature that can be psychological transforming comes into play.

We often read of warriors who laugh in the face of danger or in irony as well as joy when they are lay dying.

War by Kenneth Burke in his "Grammar of Motives" considered enlightenment through war to be survival from original sin - in effect "If we begin by saying the worst thing possible about mankind, we shall have grounds of expecting something better."

Do y'all think the laughter they each use to react to their pain filled victim situation is a moment of uniting with the gods so to speak - or a moment of transformation - or they were both experiencing the worst thing possible and therefore, could laugh as they could only expect something better regardless release in their death or a healing to a better life?

What do y'all think - in the interview Khaled Hosseini suggests the story of Amir is the story of Afghanistan - but the ending then is a conundrum - they go back to America - they do not stay to rebuild Afghanistan - and like "I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings" the abused child is so emotionally damaged that he is mute...

Is that suggesting Afghanistan is mute while being taken care of by the US...?!?

Marni--

It was fun to listen to it for me, also. The interviewer says Khaled without the 'k' though. I heard the author say Khan a couple of times like I'm used to it pronounced. The Afghan sound for this is actually a hhuckkk that doesn't quite voice the 'k.'

In what way, Barbara, do you think Afghanistan is being taken care of by the US?

This wedding described is a lot like the one in the book, with some differences. First, the procession is done in two parts, both in the book and in the ones I attend. There is the nekah, or Islamic wedding, with the bride wearing a bright green gown, usually made in India. The nekah is generally just a bunch of haggling, over mainly the amount the bride receives should a divorce occur. I have seen women sit with the men and the priest during this part, but in my family the woman sends a male from her family to represent her, in addition to her father representing the family. This is done while guests are arriving. After the nekah the bride travels the room with the women of her family, by which time most guests have arrived--generally 9:00 at night. She meets up with the groom, then they travel together with both families, men and women from each family this time. The music is very elegant, somber even.

Then the bride changes into a modern wedding gown (with sleeves, though, I make sleeves for Afghans for their wedding gowns as most bridal gowns have sheer sleeves). Then the bride and groom usually sit on a couch, like in the book, not chairs--even films from Afghanistan they are sitting on a couch not chairs--I assume this is regional. They dance some, but spend the evening sitting there, surrounded by family. They do the shawl and mirror thing, plus the henna.

The Maaleda, I think, is some sweet stuff that looks like coarse fluffy raw sugar, The guests also eat this--it is general celabratory food. The beverage is orange. The guests don't eat any of this.

For the henna, guests also put henna on their hands, women and children. It is covered by cloth to set the henna, little triangles of silk satin with strings attached--I make them.

The dancing lasts for hours and includes the attan for the men like Hosseini described, but also a separate one for women after the men. It is like Jewish line-dancing to a rather frenzied beat and moves in a tight circle--dance in a circle, turn in and clap, dance faster, turn in and clap, faster, turn in and clap. It lasts rather long if you're good at it and can keep up with the beat. I now wear pants suits to Afghan weddings so I don't trip. It's a lot of fun, and you don't have to be an Afghan to join in, because it's very easy to learn, although hard to do well.

Afghan women dress closer to white tie than black tie to a wedding.

Palou is browned cooked rice served with meat and raisins and carrots. It's the usual family meal for wealthy Afghans. When I babysat my cousin's kids while his daughter was in the hospital every Afghan for miles brought me a platter of palou. At one point I had to start storing them in the back yard.

Chalou is white rice, served with various toppings, the best being a meatball in tomato sauce or spinach with lamb.

The kabobs listed are lamb, chicken and hamburger kabob (maybe not in order). When Afghans cook kabob they usually cook all three plus a fish dish. Fish is not usually served at an Afghan wedding, though.

The kitchen staff sometimes dine with the families. The Afghan musicians are relatives in the case of my family--they would always dine with the wedding guests as they are respected members of the community.

Kleo

I am referring Kleo to the role that Sohrab plays and if he is part of the metaphor to the history of Afghanistan he is a mute orphan who goes to the US to be cared for by Amir and his wife - just looking for what works as a metaphor and where the Author missed.

As other's have shared few or any authors are perfect and part of examining a book is to look at what works and what does not work.

The henna drawings seem facinating - do the drawings have a symbolic meaning?

Barbara -- I was only referring the "while being taken care of by the US" part, not the rest, which was perfectly clear.

I don't know if the drawings have any meanings. Afghans are not the world's greatest henna artists, Indians are. I suspect that there is quite a bit of elaborate meaning to the intricate henna drawings on skin done by Indians. The ones at Afghans weddings are done by the bride and groom, usually. I have never seen one done on the bride by a professional tattoo artist. Sometimes I go with cousins and get a hand henna'd by an Indian. These designs tend not to look like the ones in the picture to the Afghan wedding link, but more like these:

Henna Hand Arist1

The small picture on the bottom left at this site is what Indian brides look like when they get their hands tattooed with henna, although it does vary quite a bit.

Henna Hand Arist2

The picture in the wedding site does look like an Afghan henna tattoo in that it is on the palm of the hand, about the right size for an Afghan one, though.

I will have to bring this up with some Afghans, do the tattoos have meaning, do the brides get professional tattoos like in the picture on the wedding site.

Afghans are a bit strange about ritual. Many things have meaning, then some other things don't. In Indian society most things have some ritual meaning.

It's like playing an Afghan game--don't play if you aren't an Afghan, but if you do play and you aren't an Afghan you better win. I played cards with Afghans when I could win. I'm no longer quite so good, so I don't.

Afghans are big on symbols in stories, in particular. This means that any interpretation that attempts to connect a symbol, person, or thing in a story, to a real life situation, such as Sohrab is the orphan Afghanistan being swaddled by the big daddy USA, is probably a correct one, or at least passed through the mind of one Afghan telling the story somewhere some time.

I realize that this was another thing that bothered some folks about the book. This is also very very Afghan.

Kleo

Just a couple of thoughts here this morning.

A couple of people have thrown out the question of why, if a person did not "like" the book, he would finish it for our discussion.

I can see we are not quite sure yet what we're about here in our SeniorNet Book club discussions, so you may like to know that in our book discussions on SeniorNet we read the entire book, whether or not we like it and discuss it, to the end: it's a commitment the members make.

With the cost of books as they are, it's not fair to the other participants for some of them to put out time or money, not to mention the Discussion Leader, and then just say, oh well, don't like it, poof!

The liking is somewhat immaterial to the discussion, in fact, in our earlier days we didn't even express liking or disliking, we held off till the very last week (which this is).

If you don't read the book in its entirety how else would you be able to form an opinion? We here are not about whether or not we "liked" the book tho that always of course, creeps in, (you can't help "liking" or "disliking" the book), but we're trying to discuss the various issues, themes, writing, that we find IN the book and hear from others what their thoughts are: they might just add to our own perspectives and experience, and usually DO. You can't do that if you don't READ it. Usually at the end we'll say and we'll give our own subjective analysis of the whole book.

An excellent example of our book discussions, in addition to this one, is the Razor's Edge discussion where yesterday I saw one of the Discussion Leaders remark how all of the participants were all over the charts on one of the characters, she had never seen such a range of reaction to one character.

THAT is what we're about, the cordial exchange of opinion. We certainly are not always going to agree.

Some book discussions on the internet consist of "I liked it." "I hated it," (and there are plenty of both reactions to this book elsewhere on the net), and that's all. We're trying for something more.

And I think we've attained that here. Barbara, you've done a heck of a job. And so have the participants, I've enjoyed some of the wonderful comments made.

Kleo you've provided much valuable background information, thank you, and also have made many statements about Afghans in general, as in the post above. I was idly thinking this morning that I could not imagine Americans characterized by such broad characterizations, and thinking of the various French people I know, and the Swiss, (which is a small country but with vastly different areas and people), and the Indians, how different THEY all are, and I am wondering, then, (and I am simply asking the question for information), if you feel all Afghanis, then, can be lumped together all the time? If this IS a characteristic of this particular country?

I may not be asking this question well but I think I am trying to ask if there an overriding nationalism that you feel takes precedence over individualism?

I think Kevin yesterday hit the nail on the head, when he said,

Ah, but now we're getting to the crux of matters, the gist, the raison d'être for this club's debut in the first place. How are we alike? How are we different? Why are we alike? Why are we different? Why can't we all just get along? How does nationalism and/or religion trump humanism and/or feelings and sensibilities common to all of us?

I think that's absolutely excellent and so for me I think I'll spend the last few days of this discussion trying to see how similar (we've had lots of information about how different the customs are, all quite interesting and contributory to our experience) we think the inhabitants of this country of Afghanistan might be, and where, if any, a commonality exists between peoples of any nation.

You can draw your own conclusions about the henna (I'm out of my element -- if I even have one -- on that count), but I will throw in on Barbara's comment by saying that only two weeks ago Karzai asked for a long-term commitment for a U.S. presence in his country. This, of course, is in stark contrast to Iraq where the Sunnis (insurgency chiefly populated by) want us out now and the Shiites (Iran-influenced and, in some cases, infiltrated & populated by) want us out... now also.

The worry in Afghanistan, from what I glean, is that the old status quo of warlords ruling the provinces and illegal poppies/opium trade ruling the economy has returned. Meanwhile, Karzai rules Kabul with the protection of US troops, something the warlords have no problem with.

It's odd -- unless I missed it -- that Hosseini ignores the whole issue of poppy crops and opium trade in his book. Then again, this is a novel, not a non-fiction book on the country, so Hosseini is not obliged in the least to mention it. Unfortunately, though, Afghanistan is fatally linked in many people's minds with the drug trade. What would Baba say? Good news: after reading this book, Afghanistan is fatally linked in my mind with KABOBS. Mmmmm, I can hear the sizzle now (and I haven't even had my Cheerios yet).

P.S. Ginny, we're on the same schedule or something. Two mornings in a row we've piggy-posted (I think that's a cross between "piggy-backed" and "cross-posted"). You following me or something? Because if you are, I promise you'll be lost, sooner rather than later.

hahaaha Kevin, no, we just happen to be here together. Early to bed, early to rise....etc.

In Edit: it looks to me like you're following me? hahaa I can assure YOU you'll be lost, if so.

Ginny--

I think I still know what you're asking, although the nationalism doesn't really play into anything I've discussed.

First off, though, I did say at the beginning that everything I say about Afghans in general is about the Afghans I know. However, I assumed that this book, being about a Pashtun and a Hazara would be about a different set of Afghans.

But I was wrong.

Almost every single cultural aspect of Afghans described in this book is exactly like my Afghan relatives--the same wedding, at the same wedding hall, the same engagement manner under similar circumstances, the same funeral, the same response to illness (although that's also the Russians), the same way of caring for the ill, the same furniture in the house, the same greetings, the same food, the same shopping, the same apartments, the same jobs, the same pastimes of garage saling in the same suburbs on Saturday followed by flea-marketing in San Jose on Sunday, the same flights to Pakistan then sneak over to Afghanistan, they same relatives and family friends all over the world, the same words, the same movies, the same names I use every day of my life--I even say Kabul just like the author, although I generally try to Americanize it.

There is simply no place in this book that I encountered a culture that I was not intimate with--other than having so few women around, which the author does remark upon in this book and in interviews as being unusual.

The links provided on top and other links provided throughout that described Afghan culture in America and in Afghanistan and Pakistan and Iran also were glimpses at a culture I knew intimately.

Can ALL Afghans be lumped together ALL of the time? I think this modification is extreme to the point of being unnecessary.

However, do Afghans seem to be more homogeneous culturally than other cultures? Yes, they are far more homogeneous culturally than any other culture I have ever encountered. South Asian cultures in particular appear to be rather homogeneous. Where they differ it's in the details of the custom, not the custom. Iranians are not as homogeneous as Afghans. Russians are not. The Irish are not. Poles are not. Swedes are not. Ghanaians are not. Nigerians are not. South Africans are not. Hondurans are not.

This is something I learned from reading this book and reading the interesting research posted by many of our readers. The author sounds exactly like an Afghan I was speaking with on Wednesday, also.

Here are some definitions of nationalism that I usually go by when I use that word:

1. desire for political independence: the desire to achieve political independence, especially by a country under foreign control or by a people with a separate identity and culture but no state of their own

2. patriotism: proud loyalty and devotion to a nation

3. excessive devotion to nation: excessive or fanatical devotion to a nation and its interests, often associated with a belief that one country is superior to all others

Nationalism by Encarta

1 seems like it would apply to everyone on the planet. But 2 and 3 indicate a more political aspiration that I don't see in anything I've described about Afghans that sets them apart from anyone else. Afghans have been fine with how their nation is for a very long time. Their country, though poor, once grew and raised enough food to feed all of their people. We may criticize Afghans for smoking hash and doing opium, but, in fact, they grow the poppies for street addicts in the First World who are supplied by drug cartels that are allowed to operate outside of the law. They simply are trying to be a market economy because Afghans don't have the money to buy food from farmers. So the farmers grow opium, a lucrative international trade brought to the Western world by the British. Poppies also grow well in the Afghan soils, possibly the area where the opium poppy originated. Poppies grow after wars, whether planted by man or God.

The Afghan loyalty is to family, not nation. And culture is the glue that holds their families together. Afghans don't in general think that their nation is superior to every other in a fanatical sense. This is why I commented about Hosseini mentioning Sarajevo in the interview. There are very few countries as destitute as Afghanistan, yet Afghans almost never think of their own plight first. I have never heard a Bosnian discuss the plight of Afghanistan, although I have worked with Bosnian refugees. I've protested the Saudi treatment of women for 30 years with Afghans. Death of a Princess is not a new story--it was brought to my attention by Afghan women many years ago because Afghan women volunteer to help Saudi women settle in the United States. The Afghan women consider the Saudi women destitute political refugees who don't stand a chance of getting ahead if not shown the rights of women in the United States--this makes me laugh so hard I cry when I think about it.

So, in the traditional sense of nationalism that I think of, and present here from the dictionary, Afghans are not nationalists. They love their own cultural identity and maintain in it their homes. They blend fine in American society--they dine with Americans, work with Americans, go to school with Americans, speak English with Americans, marry Americans.

Kleo

Kleo: Re "However, do Afghans seem to be more homogeneous culturally than other cultures? Yes, they are far more homogeneous culturally than any other culture I have ever encountered. South Asian cultures in particular appear to be rather homogeneous. Where they differ it's in the details of the custom, not the custom. Iranians are not as homogeneous as Afghans. Russians are not. The Irish are not...."

You lost me here. Can you give me examples - use the Irish - of how they are less homogeneous culturally than the Afghans. I think I'm getting uncomfortable about generalizations.

I thought Afghanistan was tribal, and thus quite heterogeneous. But then, I think the good ole U.S. of A. is tribal, too. Not just Red Tribe and Blue Tribe, either.

But really, it becomes a game of semantics, doesn't it? We'd need a definition of "homogeneous" as applied to nations (and neither dictionary nor Encarta may help). By my definition, no country on Earth fits the bill. By the next person's definition, quite the opposite.

With Six You Get Eggroll.

Honestly, to me, this was a book about the immigrant experience. It does not matter where you come from,how you came,your circumstances, what language you speak, coming to America is a culture shock. You keep your customs, you keep your contacts from the old country and you try to get acclimatized to living here. A visit to where you came from re-inforces the fact that America is your home now. I'm passing on this book to my girl friend of long standing who now lives in Windsor, England. She's a much travelled lady who has lived in several countries, visited many more and has even travelled across the US on the train. ( Hi to you Ginny..you always make sense!) The posts were very interesting.. back next month.. Colkot

Marni--

If you don't use generalizations at all you really can't say anything.

I've gone to many Afghan weddings, seen a number in films and on TV, and read about a number. Ditto Irish, American, Russian, Russian American weddings. The description of the Afghan wedding on the website could generally apply to every Afghan wedding I've been to, the same as the one in the book. The guests wear evening clothes is a good example, the weddings are at night is another, the food served is kabob and chalou and palou is another. At an Irish wedding? Well, first thing is that I've been to Roman Catholic and Protestant Irish weddings which are ceremoniously different, although only to one Irish Protestant one. I've also been to Irish weddings barefoot in the park, in the backyard, at the Judge's office. I have never been to an Afghan wedding anyplace but a large banquet hall for weddings. I've been to Russian weddings and seen Russian weddings in a variety of settings, mostly secular except for the Jewish ones. The menus are not virtually identical, I've had fish, hot dogs, steak, buffet (all Afghan weddings that I've been to have been buffet), formal dinners, luncheons. The timing of events can vary at American weddings. I've been to casual receptions with American weddings. I've been to churches and parks and the judges. I've been to weddings where we all just went out to dinner afterwards--but not an Afghan wedding.

I've been to American weddings that start at noon, at four, at six, but never one that started at nine. Only if I'm related to the bride do I arrive at an Afghan wedding much before eight at night.

Think about the last two weddings that you went to. Was the food different? Were the cakes different? Were they at very different locations? The last two weddings I went to were Afghan weddings. Although they were at different locations, they had nearly identical cakes, the settings on the stage were nearly identical, the music was nearly identical, with the same songs in the same order, although some different, the dancing was the same, the food was the same, the guests dressed the same, the timing was the same, the order of procedures was the same.

If you can't say two things are more like each other than two other things, you can't really say anything about anything. Eating kabob from at every Afghan barbecue is different than being served either hotdogs and hamburgers, or sometimes steaks, or maybe fish at American barbecues. Eating evening buffet at every Afghan wedding is different from having an afternoon buffet with cold seafood sandwiches at one wedding then being served your choice of lobster or steak at a sit-down formal evening event at two American weddings. Dressing to the nines for every Afghan wedding is different from deciding what length of floral dress to wear for a garden wedding versus whether to wear a pantsuit or skirted suit to a casual afternoon wedding versus black tie versus white tie.

At an Afghan wedding I don't need to know the 'dress' or figure it out by time of day. In fact, I don't think that time of day is included on the invitation to an Afghan wedding--it certainly wasn't on my last. Just the date. I knew exactly when to arrive and what to wear.

Kleo