Reading The Lord of the Rings with the Seniornetters would be a treasured experience for me. I have grown to respect the posters' comments and the depth they add to my reading appreciation, the aid they give to expanding my thinking a little further, etc. I have read through the four books (Hobbit included) twice with my eight children and I have their comments but what a treat it would be to share more adult and knowledgeable reactions. I sure hope there is enough interest to have it in our book club. However, if there is not, I could hardly be disappointed, with all the other wonderful books to discuss.............Elizabeth

YES - YES - YES!

Elizabeth, Barbara, it is nice to see you both here!

These are books of immense depth. They would be good subjects for an online discussion.

Wonderful artical about Tolkien and his writing the Hobbit, published September 1937, followed by the Rings, 1949, in the current issue of "British Heritage." He wanted the Rings and Silmarillion, his first love, to be published at the same time. But with his compulsiveness to rework finished copy, inventing a new language and sketching illustrations he had so many variations he seemed less concerned with finishing the work as revelling in its detail. He left notes for his son to complete the work following his wife's death. He died the next year on September 2, 1973 and Christopher, his son, published in 1977 the book his father began 60 years earlier.

I have wonderful memories of the Hobbit, and the Lord of the Rings. I first read them in High School and I don't even know how I found them. I was an avid science fiction fan, so probably found them due to my science fiction interest. I read them again in College, and after I got married at the age of 30, found that my wife had not heard of Tolkien. I began reading the Hobbit to her and my stepson Todd who was about 8 or 9. I read the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings Trilogy to them. They begged me to read every night, and bedtime was often missed, as they wouldn't let me quit.

It awakened in my son the desire to read, and caused him to develop a love of reading. It made a profound difference in school, and in his life. After I read them aloud, he read them on his own, and had a love for reading until his death. Unfortunately, he was killed at 22 in a single automobile accident. The reading aloud of the Hobbit and the Ring Trilogy has really wonderful memories for me and for my wife.

I will look forward to the discussion, although I may not regularly participate, I will certainly look in ocassionally and add comments whenever possible. I am a SeniorNet Volunteer Computer Intructor at the local Costa Mesa Senior Center, and that helps keep me busy in retirement. Regards, Ron

Count me in!

SWN in Tennessee, CMSCRON, FrancyLou thank you all for stopping by!

I would like to join this discussion. Believe it or not, I have never read Tolkien's books. I remember my middle-aged son reading them and loving them when he was young, and they were were on my list for summer reading in another bookclub. I have ordered them now and know that I will get a lot more from the reading by hearing the comments of you all.

Welcome to our little 'fellowship of the ring' BabsNH! I'm glad that you will be joining us when our discussion begins!

I just ordered the whole set....

My boys read this a long time ago, but guess I was not interested at the time.

Hi, I read these about 18 years ago and thoroughly enjoyed them. Was a long read , what with working full time. But had to complete the journey (as the hobbits did). Tried it again a couple years ago but only got through 1-1/2 books. Too much going on right at that time. I think it is time again, and input should really be a stimulus. Looking forward to starting the quest, orcs or not. You are not alone Frodo.

When are we suppose to start this book? Or go ahead and read it now?

Welcome Timo1!

FrancyLou, our discussion will start on 12/01 as it says above. But you can read the books - it is a trilogy so there are three books and none are skinny books - beforehand. You can read them now and then reread parts as needed during the discussion. That is usually what I do when I join in with a book discussion: I read the book ahead rather quickly to get an overview of the whole book and then more slowly as it is discussed.

Checking out of WalMart today there sat TOLKIEN's The Lord of the Rings, Part one: The Fellowship of the Ring for $4.98. I'm in. I hope to start it next week. I have never read Tolkien. I bought the Hobbitt last year to read with my grandson but he opted for a different book.

Welcome ALF, nice to see you will be joining us!

All you lucky people who have first readings of the Ring ahead, and lucky the rest of us who have this good discussion ahead. May I join in as time permits?

Sasha, welcome and most certainly you can join in with the discussion!

Count me in. I've never read any of Tolkien's books so this will be my first. This will be my second book discussion with SeniorNet. I've been impressed so here I come.

See ya,

Brumie

We are so happy that you're sticking around for this one Brumie. Your interesting posts are very much to the point and arresting

Hot diggity! I really look forward to re-reading the trilogy. It's been years since I last read it, and it will be so exciting to share the read with adults. Count me in.

Sheila

Oh no Sheila, who said anything about adults being here?

ALF - only adults can really relish their second childhood, which we on SeniorNet seem to celebrate very well.

What better way than with Lord of the Rings?

I apologize for not coming around faster. I do have an good excuse though: my computer was not working and I had to wait until this afternoon before the fellow could come to fix it.

Welcome to Brumie and to SheilaK!

ALF, thank you for jumping in and helping out while I was computerless

Computerless? Oh no, that is a fate worse than death in my opinion, Nellie.

LOL, yes being without a usable computer means dying from boredom -slowly, very slowly. I did read a lot mind you

Never did read the Rings through since it was published after I went through childhood bury in books time - vaguely remember reading the Hobbit - does anyone know should we have read the Hobbit before the Rings to understand what is happening?

I was wondering too if we should read the Hobbit first. Got the book from the Library today and started reading it. BIG BOOK!

Barbara, I read the Rings trilogy long before I read The Hobbit and I had no problem understanding what was going on in the trilogy.

in the foreword, Tolkein gave a nice summary of The Hobbit. The tone of the two is very different, but you can go through The Hobbit quickly, and have a bunch of fun doing it.

That is exactly what I am going to do, too. I have the Hobbitt at home. On the way over to the other coast of Florida I read the first three chapters of Lord of the Rings, the Fellowship of the Ring. I love this story!! I sense a Harry Potterish type of amusement reading all about the Hobbitts, the Baggins, Frodo and our wizard, Gandalf. This one is going to be fun, fun, fun!!!

I agree ALF, I've read two chapters. Fun, Fun, and Fun!!!!!!!!!! Tomorrow I'm going to get The Hobbitt! I don't read fantasy books but I could have read one of C. S. Lewis' books.

I most urgently desire that those who plan to read The Lord of the Ring but who have not read The Hobbit do so. It is charming and is really where Tolkien started the whole series. I don't have the exact quotes with me but the story is that Tolkien, as an English teacher, was looking over a too convoluted essay of a student and said something like, "No, no no. Everything should be simple. For instance. There once was a Hobbit named Bilbo who lived in a hole, a nice sandy hole...." which turned out (more or less) to be the first sentence of the four books.

Hello all, I see we are getting ready for Bilbo's 111th birthday party and are having fun doing so. It will be a while yet before we set out and partake of the merriment, but there are lots of supplies to be gotten and decorations to make, so we'll keep ourselves busy until then.

Elizabeth, good suggestion. Tolkien does provide a synopsis of the most important part of The Hobbit in the Prologue to Fellowship of the Ring -and that is the finding of the Ring by Bilbo. Yes the four books make one whole story but The Hobbit was/is a children's story and the Rings Trilogy is more 'adult' in its writing style. Not that children can't enjoy the Rings trilogy or adults The Hobbit.

I can't wait to begin!

I am halfway thru the 1st book, will go back soon and read the Hobbitt. Today I orderd the Tower and the Return of the King. I ove this story. It is delightful and makes me giggle.

I am well into 'The Two Towers'. I have found these books (I started with 'The Hobbit') to be the perfect escapist stuff that I really needed right now. Instead of sitting in front of the gloom and doom on TV every night, I sit on my bed listening to some cool jazz or classical music and reading about hobbits, dwarves, elves, wizards, and orcs, dragons, wolves etc. I never would have thought that I could enjoy this so much. That being said, plenty of statements made by characters in the books are very pertinent to the current mess the world is in. Barb

Hi all! It won't be long before our discussion of The Fellowship of the Ring begins in earnest. Time passes fast.

Hello Nellie. I've been very busy with Frodo this past week and have the 2 subsequent books here ready to go. I love these stories.

Morning: Almost finished reading The Hobbit. I've enjoyed reading it and looking forward to finish reading the Lord of the Rings. I'm a slow reader but I'll get it done!!!!!!!!!!!

I discovered a new site for the Lord of the Rings - the New York Times Book Review. I found it very interesting and thought I'd share it with you all!

Brumie can you provide a link , a url for us?

Pat, the link is not working for me -it's not showing as a link.

works for me. Thanks.

Thanks Pat! Works great for me and the right one I found too!

I have sent notices, for those interested in continuing to receive it to REPLY .... since email addresses come and go are changed and boxes get full.

But I have not heard from a lot of people who post here regularly or the lurkers that are here.

SO .... if you still want Book Bytes.....
Click on my name.
Click on my email address
Send me an email with Book Bytes in the subject line
And I will add your name to the new list.

I found address for the New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/books/

I never got Book Bytes; can you tell us about it?

aarp has a classroom that is discussing Lord of the Rings. I have been following it and I just posted our url in it. As a matter of fact they will probably throw me out of there! I didn't edit my post until it was already of the board, I tried to delete it and repost. To make ,atters worse, I would up posting 3 times. Good thing I'm not being paid to advertise for us. One poster wrote and asked me to provide a link. So hey---- I provided it three times! What the hey?

ALF, I hope that some from there will find their way over here. I guess with the movie coming out in December lots of book clubs will be discussing the Ring trilogy.

Well Nellie you are going to have to keep me in line while reading these. I've doped off and ordered 2 of the Two Towers and Return of the King. I've posted all crazy and embarassed myself in aarp classroom. Let's just hope my eyes don't deceive me while reading.

Alf: I tried to find the classroom you've been talking about and couldn't only book discussion. I did find one post The Lord of the Rings but that was all! Got the address?

Yes Brumie, here it is. You have to log on first I think to get into the message board. aarp class

ALF, you should be OK here; we are going slowly by doing one book from the trilogy per month -at least that is what is planned for now- because each book is full of so many things to look at. Sometimes I think that just one of Tolkien's chapters has enough in it to make up a book on its own.

I'm going to check out the aarp discussion, of course.

I finished reading The Hobbit last week and have started reading The Lord of the Rings and I'm really enjoying it. It seems a little more adult! Right now I'm taking my time reading because I like Tolkien's writing. It's a real challenge to picture the characters, roads, mountains, forest, and etc. in my mind!

The first time I read the Rings, I had a huge poster of the Middle Earth map on the wall (they were as common then as Harry Potter stuff is now!), and referred to it constantly. This time, I'm wearing out the paperback flipping back to the map. So MANY good things I'd forgotten.

sheilak1939 wrote: "only adults can really relish their second childhood..."

Second childhood? I'm in! LOL

Well, not really...yet. I'll have to get the book from the library first...

But I'm here...reading the discussion, ain't I?

A little bird encouraged me to come here. So here I am.

Pondering: I often find that the strange names used in science fiction are difficult for me to remember and to relate to. I suspect that's why I have so often rejected science fiction. I feel like a "stranger in a strange land."

Wondering where I had heard those words, I did an online search just now. Here's what I found:

========================================================

Novel: "Stranger in a Strange Land" by Robert A. Heinlein... One of the greatest science fiction novels ever published. A Mars-born earthling arrives on this planet for the first time as an adult, and the sensation he creates teaches Earth some unforgettable lessons. "A brilliant mind-bender."--Kurt Vonnegut.

=========================================================

Question: Have strange names ever been a problem for you when reading fiction?

Rita Russ...newbie in this science fiction secion

Brumie, when I read the Rings trilogy for the first time I drew pictures of every character and little maps to keep myself oriented.

Sasha, I do that flipping back and forth to the map illustration thing too.

Welcome Rita! I think you will enjoy The Fellowship of the Ring, the first of the three books that make up the Ring Trilogy.

I've not had problems with strange names when reading any kind of fiction -I guess that some Science Fiction and also Fantasy writers use odd names to make the places and people they write about seem more exotic, more alien, and more futuristic.

It doesn't have to be science fiction. Any name with an oversupply of consonants gets me, and I'm still decoding the personae in War and Peace! That's why I like names like Strider and Frodo ... I've even named computers after them (yep: Macs). Had a Christmas tree named Gimli one year ...

Hhahahahahahaa sasha I agree whole heartedly. Welcome Rita. I knew when I read your choices in the other site that you'd be a natural for this one. It is fun, fun fun! (If it ain't fun, I don't do it.)

I seem to be doing okay with all of the different kind of names for both The Hobbit and LOTR. I may do alot of turning back to refresh my mind of the names but over time it will "sink in." I'll tell you what - LOTR has a different (to me) tone about it - seems to have more mystery or something. The Hobbit was more of a journey - nothing like the Dark Rider!!!!!!!!!!!!! or Strider!!!!!!!! W O W!!!!

I visited the aarp class yesterday and today and learned much about the author. I think one thing impressed me about him is his love of words (philogy).

We went to see Harry Potter tonight. It was great, you must go. But the reason I was posting is they had a "trailer" for Lord of the Rings, it is a must see. It looks soooo good.

Thanks for the welcome. I called the library today to ask them to reserve "The Lord of the Rings" trilogy for me, or even just "The Fellowship of the Ring". Their entire stock was on loan. I'll have to wait to get a copy.

About strange names giving me problems, yes, as Sasha said, I have trouble with strange names in any kind of reading. I also have problems when too many characters are introduced at once, especially when their characters aren't well defined. In fact, this is one of my pet peeves with authors.

I usually end up writing out a separate list of the characters with a thumbnail description of each to spark my memory.

Memory is much more important than we realize. Usually we take our memories for granted. I know people who can recall plots of books which they read years ago. I hardly ever can do that. I've come to realize how very different one person's memory-ability is from another's. I find myself at a distinct advantage in talking and writing because I have trouble recalling names. As I get older, it gets worse.

Do any of you recognize these problems?

Rita

RITA: Part three of LOTR, The Return of the King, is offered on the Book Exchange (seniornet) if you are interested. You pay only for the postage!

Talking about memory about four years ago I retired at an early age (52) I found that my memory wasn't as good as when I was working. Because of this I read, read, and read. I also took a Lit. class couple of years ago and that really did help. So that is how I'm dealing with my memory!!!!! (keep that brain active) With a lot of characters (author for an example Tom Clancy) drives me crazy but after repetition and going back and forth in the book it will eventually "sink in."

If I read a book that moves really fast I'll not remember it. But if I read a book that (like a huge novel) moves slow and is deep I'll remember it!

I've been playing on my computer this a.m. and found some very very interesting websites.

It all began on HTTP://WWW.XENITE.ORG/TALK/TOLKIEN.HTM HTTP:WWW.MARQUETTE.EDU/LIBRARY/INFORMATION/NEWS/SHIPPEYQ&A.HTML HTTP:WWW.MARQUETTE.EDU/LIBRARY/COLLECTION/ARCHIVES/TOLKIEN.HTML HTTP:WWW.TOLKIENSOCIETY.ORG/TOLKIEN/INDEX.HTML

Rita, memory is a strange thing: when I read through a discussion like this I have to note down names and bits of what the person said because if I don't I won't remember by the time I set out to make my own post; yet there are other things that I remember without any problem.

Brumie, thanks for the links/urls! If you don't mind, I'll make them into links for us:

Shippey Q&A on Tolkien

The Tolkien Society

Note: for some reason I can't get the page for this url to come up:
http://www.marquette.edu/library/collections/archives/tolkien.html

OK, I think that link above will work now

And here are a couple of sites I found that have some maps of Middle Earth:

Isildur: a Tolkien site

Ring Lord: a Tolkien site

Thanks Nellie!

Great! We'll have a map to refer to.

I love maps while I'm reading--downloaded them all. Thanks Nellie.

Brumie: Yes, I'm trying to keep my brain active. But active is one thing and frustrated is another! LOL I gave up playing bridge because I realized I had no memory for cards. Some people seem to be born with it. Not I! LOL

About buying books, I can't make myself do it, expecially when I can get them free at the library. I have a small collection of books, but I have no room for more. Thanks for the suggestion though.

Nellie and Brumie: I checked out one of those maps. More weird names! LOL I think I'm in big trouble. (ggg)

Rita

Rita: When we sold our home in SN State and moved south I had to get rid of a closet (no joke) of harcover books-not to mention the paperbacks I had. I swore I'd never buy another book and for yrs. I did not. THEN, up pops SeniorNet and all of these wonderful choices for my reading pleasures. I have a book site that is very cheap on line and we have our book nook where the only charge if you want the book is to pay for the media postage. That's around two bucks. You'll be suckered in here spending it just like you had it, my friend. It is so hard to ignore especially if you can't obtain it at the local library.

We'll see, Alf. We have a pretty good library system with a very helpful inter-loan program. However, I'll keep your words in mind.

Where is SN?

Rita

OOPs, sorry. New York state. NY S.

Memory ! what memory. Bilbo is dining with us today- can this guy eat ! Packers game starting. See you all in December.

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!

LOL Timo, I hope Bilbo has not eaten you out of house and home!

Not long now before the adventure begins!

YEA! YEA! YEA! Can't wait!!!! I've finished Book I and I've started the next one. I truly do like the writer, Tolkien. Because he is such a good writer I've taken my time reading it. Some books I read too fast and wish I didn't because maybe the book turned out to be one of those books that you say "I didn't want the book to end."

Did anyone catch the half hour show Thursday night about the making of the Lord of the Rings movie? Very interesting. It took 2 years of hard work to film it.

I missed it. maybe they'll repeat it. What channel was it on, do you recall?

Sasha, it was on the regular Fox channel. I just happened to be surfing thru when I found it.

It was on PBS here - but I missed it. We went out to dinner and then to look at Christmas Lights.

The director said he will never take on such a large production again for as long as he lives. He is very exacting and a perfectionist who strived to portray Tolkiens mission with this story. They discussed the importance of the 4 (Hobbitt) boys bonding before this ultimate adventure story even began. It was shot in New Zealand and they showed clips of them fencing, canoeing and working out at the gym together. It showed the heart and the spirit of everyone involved in this production.

HEY! I just realized this IS December oneth. when do we begin??

Hello everyone! Today we begin our journey into fantasy and adventure!

We will be looking at the first six chapters of the first book in The Fellowship of the Ring, which are:
A long-expected Party
The Shadow of the Past
Three is Company
A Short Cut to Mushrooms
A Conspiracy Unmasked
The Old Forest

Now let's get ready for Bilbo's birthday festivities! What do you think of the person who has the birthday giving gifts to others rather than getting gifts?

Feel free to express whatever thoughts you have on the chapters under discussion.

Enjoy!

Don't you just love the description of the Hobbits? They are fun loving, peace loving, nimble although prone to being fat,little 2 to 4 ft. people. It makes me gleeful just reading of the "Hobbit's habit" of dressing in bright colors, laughing eating and drinking together.

The Hobbitts of the Shire are a great deal like us, albeit living in the tunnells and holes, that is!  They had suffered long winters, famine and wars.  They acquired new lands, moved westward as our pioneers did and became skilled in the craft of building.  They smoked a brand of Nicotiania and they gathered tobacco.  Officials were elected (every 7 years.)

Didn't you just love the Shirriffs whose uniforms were only a "feather in their cap?"  What a play on words that is.
Their shire was divided into four quarters  and the area bore the names of some of their leading families, as did our country.  (Charles)ton. (Jackson)ville, etc.

The first chapter of this book roped me in immediately!  Old Bilbo and Frodo's  joint birthday party is given to a gross (hahh) of 144 Hobbits.  Bilbo is Eleventy one and Frodo is "coming of age" at 33.  That just tickled me and I still laugh at the wonderful way he disappeared before his 144 guests.

He loved Frodo deeply and at this party Frodo realizes his own fondness for the old guy.  Tolkein was  orphaned at an early age.  Do you think that that is why he chose this strong connection between Bilbo and Frodo?  Did he perhaps wish for such a charming guardian?

I'd been thinking last night of the way Tolkien grounds us (I guess I meant the pun) in the familiar and comfortable, especially since this is the time of year (in North America) for nesting like Hobbits. Then I read your first question in the header, on the suspension of disbelief, and realized how well that little trick was done. We stay grounded in the familiar every time Sam opens his mouth, no matter how incredible the adventure: you may be tempted to "disbelieve" Gandalf or Aragorn, but NEVER Sam! (Personally, I'm part Baggins ... not, I hope, SACKVILLE-Baggins!)

Yea, I saw the making of the LOTR movie Thursday night on Fox. Very very interesting! I especially liked seeing how they built their homes. On a hill! Matter of fact in The Hobbit it says "The Hill - as all the people for many miles round called it - and many little round doors opened out of it..."

Hobbits are similar to us in a couple of ways. They love peace and quiet and don't like to be in a hurry! They are different in their physical size and where they live!

Alf brought up a good point "Tolkien was orphaned at an early age. Do you think that is why he chose this strong connection between Bilbo and Frodo? Good point I'll do more thinking on that.

For a person to give gifts to others on his/her birthday would sure mean they are rich or unselfish!

Hi - Just dropping by to say that I've begun reading "The Fellowship of the Ring", but I'm only on Chapter 1. I'm also reading other books at the same time, including "The Hobbit". So my progress is slow.

So far I'm finding the characters in Tolkien's stories very charming and appealing. I'm enjoying what the book jacket calls Tolkien's "quiet humor".

Thanks to SeniorNet I'm finally getting around to reading these famous books. What a difference a little motivation makes!

As to giving presents on one's birthday, it sounds nice, but it could get expensive and complicated. (g) When my cousin graduated from college, her mom sent checks out to relatives and told them to go out and celebrate because she was unable to give a party. That was a new twist at the time.

Rita, still reading the comments in the Archives about Cunningham's prize-winner, "The Hours", which I recently finished reading. Interesting stuff.

Haha, Sasha is part Baggins huh?  Did Frodo leave you any of his articles

Brumie:  After his mother died in 1904  of complications from diabetes, Tolkien (he was 12) and his brother  were left in the care of a priest, their aunt and then moved into rented rooms in another home.  If I were him I would have longed for a stable adoptive parent, such as our Frodo.

Welcome Rita:  You sound like me with 3-4 books being read all at once.  This one goes quickly, however as we zip right along with the boys on their adventures.

Actually, when children are invited to birthday parties, now-a-days, they are sent home with a bag of goodies for themselves.  It amazed me when I saw that my granddaughter (age 5) was given a movie pass,Crayolas, a coloring book and jewelry.  It made me wonder as to whom was the giver at this party.

If any of you come to visit at my next birthday, I would like a gift that would make me "invisible" thank you. Hey, do you think that Rowlings read Tolkien and it gave her the idea of the "invisibile cloak" in Harry Potter?

Someone from the Northwest help me: isn't giving away your possessions called a "potlatch?" I think the Navajo do something similar in some ceremonies.

Where is our Nellie? Is she coming with the elves? Maybe she's stuck in the Bag End garden with Sam. Wouldn't it be fun if she were brewing some Gandalf Grog?

One of my sons advised me to take note, as I read this book, that things that seem to happen by chance may not be so. Also, the idea that the homey character of the hobbits immediately engages the readers' suspension of disbelief about the wonders that follow is excellent; I had not thought of it myself.

Well, now I have to apologize to Nellie for misspelling her yesterday. Forgive the lapse.

Also yesterday there were twins who came to the Food Closet (where I occasionally volunteer) to bring food bags: they had asked for food donations as birthday gifts, and we reaped 5 grocery bags full as a result. I rechristened them Bilbo and Frodo on the spot, and sent them off to the Library.

Nellie, I'm cogitating your fourth question: would that the things I dread were as worthwhile as Frodo's task.

Alf, about the invisibility idea via Tolkien's ring or Rowling's cloak, I made the same comment to my husband on the way home from seeing the Harry Potter movie. I wondered if Rowling had gotten the idea from Tolkien.

Then I tried to recall what other stories include the idea of invisibility. All I could think of was the movie, "The Invisible Man", or something like that. Can anyone else remind us of any others?

Rita

Poor ole Bilbo!    He loved the beautiful ring but still he felt it "growing on his mind."  Did it sound to any of you as if he realized it was the ring itself that kept him from the aging process?  It's a good thing that he didn't use the ring that often to make himself invisible or he would have become "thin and stretched."  Is that a bad thing?  I could use thinning and stretching a bit.  Does anyone have this  "precious" commodity?
  No! who in the world wishes to live for eleventy-one years?

Hello everyone! I'm finally here and have printed all your remarks out to read over and then I'll comment in the morning when I am more 'with it' as right now my pecking finger is running out of steam.

Rita, if I haven't said it before 'Welcome to our discussion.' We are just on the first six chapters so you shouldn't have much trouble catching up, and if you don't, it doesn't much matter. LOL I'm always way behind in any discussion I join.

I've read somewhere that Tolkien thought of himself as being a hobbit. Perhaps that is why hobbits are the most well thought out beings in his imaginary world?

ALF, how did you know I was busy brewing some Gandalf Grog for us to imbibe while we carry on our discussion? I've got lots of mushrooms too -like Frodo I love mushrooms, specially together with bacon!

Such a great collection of remarks everyone! Now that I have them all printed to read and underline I shall return in the morning with my remarks. Right now it is time for supper and like a hobbit I never miss supper if I can help it!

Nellie: Most of the day I've been thinking about the hobbits and this is what I discovered while visiting the aarp classroom.

"While dwarves, elves, wizards even orcs and wargs have their roots in northern European mythology and folklore, hobbits are the one people that Tolkien made up himself. So where did he get the name hobbit? Tolkien himself suggested that he may have been subsconsciously influenced by Sinclair Lewis' Babbit."

Thought that was interesting.

I associate the word 'habit' with the name and character of the hobbit. Hobbits seem to honor comfort, scheduled eating, observance of holidays, staying at home and not going off adventure-seeking. I'm not surprised that a man who has been away to the Great War of 1914, has suffered there and lost close friends, comes back to his literary life and builds a place like Hobbiton in his imagination. And looking at the maps you recommended, Nellie, seeing where The Hill is located with the Sea far to the west and the location of Mordor down to the south east, it seems like a map of England with that evil place roughly where London and its environs might lie. And what about that dream of Frodo's 154! "...Then he heard a noise in the distance. At first he thought it was a great wind coming over the leaves of the forest. Then he knew it was not leaves, but the sound of the Sea far off; a sound he had never heard in waking life, though it had often troubled his dreams. Suddenly he found he was out in the open. There were no trees after all. He was on a dark heath, and there was a strange salt smell in the air. Looking up he saw before him a tall white tower, standing alone on a high ridge. A great desire came over him to climb the tower and see the Sea. He started to struggle up the ridge towards the tower: but suddenly a light came in the sky, and there was a noise of thunder." In the introduction, I think it was, we were told that elves were slowly making their way west through the Shire, to reach the Sea and a tall white tower on the shore, there to embark for some wonderous elf-land. In his dream, Frodo wishes to go too but the dream is interdicted by light in the sky and thunder--a foreshadowing of his coming adventure. By the way, we live 50 miles north of San Francisco and in the 60's the hippies, tiring of city life, drifted to our countryside, settled in and called it The Shire.

Hello all! I've read all your posts and scribbled little notes to myself of what I want to say in reply and who to say it to, but I'm sure to forget something or possibly someone; so if I do, please do forgive this old scatter brain.

ALF: I do like the description of the hobbits and personally think that the world could use a lot more hobbits!

The play on words with the Shirriffs with the feathers in their caps is a good one. I've not paid attention to the use of word play in this book or the following ones, but it would be interesting to see what other bits of word play one might find.

Frodo coming of age at 33. Imagine having such a long life expectancy that you don't reach the age of being an adult until you are 33 years old?

Sasha: Sam grounds us in the familiar. And isn't it interesting that Sam is a gardener who comes from a family of gardeners?

LOL so you are part Baggins? I think that I must be at least part a Gamgee since I love my garden and gardening!

Brumie, I think it would give me great joy to be able to give little gifts to others on my birthday. When I was a child in Holland I was allowed to give out sweets to my classmates on my birthday and I always looked forwards to doing so.

Rita, join in whenever you like

Elizabeth, I like your idea of hobbit=habit. They are creatures of habit and very settled in their ways.

Some thoughts: Hobbits have a passion for family history. I wonder if this is because Tolkien himself had a passion for family history?

The ring is not just some magic trinket that gives the user the ability to become invisible; it is much more than that. What hints are we given that this ring might be something evil?

ALF, is becoming 'stretched and thin' necessarily a bad thing? I could do with some 'thinning' but I think I'm stretched quite tall enough. I think Bilbo meant more that he felt like he was fading away, or maybe like something that is being pulled apart to the breaking point.

Don't you just love the hobbit names? I do. we have Bagginses, Boffins, Tooks, Brandybucks, Grubbs, chubbs, Burrowses, Bolgers, Bracegirdles, Brockhouses, Goodbodies, Hornblowers, Proudfoots, and Sackville-Bagginses at Bilbo and Frodo's party.

Beginning with something as familiar as a birthday party is a way that Tolkien helps us to suspend our disbelief; and the characters of the hobbits who are so much like us and very believable.

It is time for lunch and I'm hobbit enough that I don't want to miss it.

gardens, indeed. And a friend named her retirement home "Gone to Ground." I hoped my new home would allow for a garden, but the lure of living "in the woods" was too strong.

You got me thinking that "a passion for family history" is a form of "a passion for history" in general, which I think is required of a hobbit who has to have at least an inkling of "the bigger picture" ... that there is evil a-foot, and a-wing. Aren't we reading this at just the right time!

Being forced to sort out "possessions" these days, I enjoy the fact that the symbol of purest evil is a bauble, a trinket. Can we look at Bilbo's use of the ring as a metaphor for power in general, its use and misuse?

Pg. 46 reads "A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later - later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later the dark power will devour him."

I ask myself if Bilbo knew this because on pg. 33 Gandalf says "Magic rings are - well, magical; and they are rare and curious. I was professionally interested in your ring, you may say; and I still am. I should like to know where it is, if you go wandering again. Also I think you have had it quite long enough. You won't need it any more, Bilbo, unless I am quite mistaken." Or Gandalf was looking out for Bilbo because he knew what this Ring would do if he continues to make himself invisible more? Bilbo does have a hard time giving it up! Better yet was the ring getting control of Bilbo?

I found an interesting sentence (pg. 4l) "If only that dratted wizard will leave young Frodo along, perhaps he'll settle down and grow some hobbit-sense, they said. And to all appearance the wizard did leave Frodo alone, and he did settle down, but the growth of hobbit-sense was not very noticeable............."

Re: birthday gifts to guests. In my family, as we grew into adulthood and started raising children of our own, we started giving our mother a gift on our birthdays. Only as parents did we begin to appreciate the labor of love our mother went through to bring us into and up in the world. I love the concept of celebrating with others the part each plays in our own becoming.

Re: names. Tolkien is masterful in creating wonderful names. Names that are a mouthful yet very homely.

Re: race of Hobbits. What a delight! Since these stories were originally intended for a youthful (teen?)reader, including from the beginning such settled, grounded characters gives a sense of security that flows through to the very end. Even facing the most horrible dangers, the Hobbit equanimity gives the reader an assurance that things will work out in the end. The ongoing balance between adventure and the security of Hobbits knowing who they are as survivors of long years of troubles, allows the tale to unfold 'safely'. For young readers, the small, compact stature of the Hobbits helps them see that small size doesn't mean lack of strength, wisdom, or courage. The fact that they aren't presented as especially attractive lets us believe that ordinary people can have interesting and productive lives that really matter to the rest of the world.

Re: the ring. I think it's a metaphor for power, and the corrupting effect of power, and the temptation to rely on magic rather than personal wisdom and courage. Invisibility is a seductive concept. It provides a way to feel 'safe', but at the same time it lets one lose his own self image, his identity, his way of relating normally with others. It leads to the terrrible isolation in which one comes to feel he doesn't really belong in any world.

Re: reluctance. I'm always reluctant to step into new territory unprepared. I'm a terrible procrastinator about ordinary things. Going blindly into such an adventure as Frodo's would leave me a quivering huddle in the deepest Hobbit hole. Maybe that's why most of my adventures have been literary ones - vicarious participation in someone else's imaginary adventures. I think I'm more Hobbit-like than I would like to be.

"the temptation to rely on magic rather than personal wisdom and courage:" wonderful. May I amend it, according to the metaphor, to "the temptation to rely on power?" Power is something that often comes from outside, a gift, as it were, an adjunct to the real chore (I'm thinking here of politicians who lose sight of their duties in enjoying the trappings of power), which becomes more "precious" than the chore, the journey. And I agree wholeheartedly with Brumie that the ring was getting control of Bilbo ... and that Gandalf knew it was. The whole potlatch deal was contrived to make it possible for Bilbo to give away the ring.

SASHA: Both of your post spoke to me. When you mention "PRECIOUS" I immediately thought of GOLLUM.

"He was a loathsome little creature: he paddled a small boat with his large flat feet, peering with pale luminous eyes and catching blind fish with his long fingers, and eating them raw. He ate any living thing, even orc, if he could catch it and strange it without a struggle. He possed a secret treasure that had come to him long ages ago, when he still lived in the light: a RING OF GOLD that made its wearer invisible. It was one thing he loved, his PRECIOUS, and he talked to it, even when it was not with him....."

I forgot to mention Hobbits seldom wore shoes because "their feet had tough leathery soles and were clad in a thick curling hair, much like the hair of their head, which was commonly brown." !!!!!!!!!!

So many interesting thoughts being presented by all of you!

Perhaps a bit of a look at the history of the Ring as told to Frodo by Gandalf is in order at this point?

Sauron forges the One Ring, which is meant to control all the other Great Rings in Mordor. Then he is defeated in battle by the Elf king Gil-galad and the man of Westernesse Elendil, who are both killed in the battle. The son of Elendil, Isildur cuts the ring from Sauron's hand and puts it on his finger. Then the Ring falls from Isildur's hand as he swims across the Great River, the Anduin and is lost from knowledge.

Years later two hobbit like creatures by name of Smeagol and Deagol are fishing in the area where the Ring was lost. Deagol finds the Ring when he is pulled into the water by a large fish and is killed by Smeagol who instantly desires the beautiful golden ring. Smeagol discovers that the Ring makes him invisible and after being driven from his home makes his way deep into the darkness beneath the mountains.

There Bilbo finds the Ring on a little island in a dark pool where Smeagol who had gotten the name Gollum because of the noises he made in his throat, had left it.

From what Gandalf says, the Ring has a 'mind' of its own and it desires to return to its master Sauron. I think that in a way the Ring is one of the major 'characters' in the story. What do you think?

SheilaK, I love that idea of you giving your mother a gift on your birthday; such a lovely sentiment.

I always seem to be posting at supper time...so must go and cook

I've finally read up to Chapter 7 and am ready to join the conversation. I read somewhere that this book is considered to be part of the genre known as "the heroic quest". To me it seems like a kind of a fairy tale as well. What strikes me is the relaxed mood I fall into as soon as I begin reading the story. Tolkien's descriptive writing style sweeps me immediately into a fantasy mood. It's a nice feeling, even though I find the story a bit slow-going.

Perhaps the story is relaxing because, as Sheilak said, the hobbits' personality is one of equanimity. (Good word, Sheilak!) The hobbits seem so homey and sensible. They're very likable folk, not too aggressive, fairly simple, and are always gathering together around a table to eat. The atmosphere is cosy when one is with the hobbits, despite the danger all around them.

I'm delighted by Tolkien's poems. I enjoy his rhythm and use of musical words. For example:

"O spring-time and summer-time, and spring again after!
O wind on the waterfall, and the leaves' laughter!"

So uplifting and filled with love of nature!

I'm also struck by Tolkien's creativity in coming up with all these original names for his characters. There seems to be no end to them. The name "Goldberry" rang a bell with me. Then I remembered that I had spent several lovely hours this summer at a cosy restaurant in Lake Placid, NY, called "Goldberry's". I'm wondering if they got the idea for the name from Tolkien. I love the name!

I'm very glad that SeniorNet has motivated me to finally read this book. I've enjoyed reading your discussion here too. So much interesting input from everyone.

Rita

Isn't this fun?  Hello Rita, Brumie, Sheila and Sasha.  Each one of you seem to enjoy the lightheartedness of this story.  (Is that a word?)
Rita loves the rhythm of his words.  He was  a skilled linguist.  He himself admitted that he wrote stories  in order to create an environment in which his "self-invented" language would come to life.  As a child he loved learning languages, i.e..  Greek &  German- but he abhored   French!  His teachers who had their own passion for language encouraged it and one loaned him a book so he could learn Anglo-Saxon.  He was on his way to becoming a philologist by the time he was 16!
Did you know that Tolkien was also interested in Geology?  He showed his love of the countryside, with his attention to landscape  in his writtings, didn't he?

It is so amazing that as I re-read LOTR I'm discovering new things. It seems the first time I read about the ring much was either forgotten or just didn't "sink in." This time I asked myself some pretty good questions like: Why did Bilbo leave the ring to Frodo? What caused Frodo to take a journey (with the ring) and Where is he going? To answer the first goes back to Nellie's post how Bilbo came about to finding the ring. On pg. 54 Gandalf says "I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it."

Like Nellie said the ring has a mind of its own and desires to return to its master. "It had slipped from Isidur's hand and betrayed him; then when a chance came it caught poor Deagol, and he was murdered; and after that Gollum, and it had devoured him. It could make no further use of him: he was too small and mean; and as long as it stayed with him he would never leave his deep pool again. So now, when its master was awake once more and sending out his dark thought from Mirkwood, it abandoned Gollum. Only to be picked up by the most unlikely person imaginable: Bilbo from the Shire!" So the RING is moving (from person to person).

To be continued ......

I was having quite a time having any feeling for this book.... your posts have helped a lot. I am beginning to enjoy the adventure!

I loved the hobbit - but this did not feel the same to me. This felt artificial, unreal.

Gandalf seems like a very good friend to Bilbo, and Frodo.

Last night I reread this week's chapters, with an eye to Nellie's questions, and was distressed to discover how the hobbits behaved the morning after Bilbo "disappeared." Not so nice after all.

Oops, gotta make dinner. May I come back later?

Sasha, I think the 'not nice' behavior of the Hobbits makes them more believable, more multi-dimensional.

Nellie, I don't see the ring as a 'character'. It seems to be a manifestation of an elemental power, something that affects anyone who carries and/or uses it. But I don't think it has free volition which would make it a personal thing, a character. It was created with a nature demanding a return to its source. Perhaps like an iron filing being drawn to a magnet. I see it more as a tool created by Sauron for his own use. The tool simply survives the creator, but its nature doesn't change.

Rita, I agree with you about Tolkien's poetry. I love his style, his mastery of the English language in both poetry and prose. His descriptions really draw me into the setting; I can almost taste the air of Middle Earth.

I read that Tolkien and C.S. Lewis were personal friends. How I would have loved to listen in on one of their natters over a pint!

I agree, and was going to finish up my comment by contrasting that greedy behavior with that of Merry, Pippin, and (especially) Sam.

I see lots of things in this book others have used.... the Willow Tree (there was a "babysitter" movie that the tree ate babies - I did not finish the movie and it gave me nightmares last night). The invisablity... Harry Potter, The Invisable Man, etc. And many other things from the book now that I think of it (senior moment, can not name them right this minute).

Everyone is making such good thoughtful posts! I'm having a bit of a problem staying on SN so if I don't appear for a day or so, do forgive me and please keep the conversation going

Rita, this is a heroic quest type of story with a bit of a twist in that the hero (Frodo) is setting out on a quest to get rid of something, and usually, as far as I can recall, the hero in a heroic quest story goes to find something. I think that many fairy tales are also about heroic quests; and yes, this book and the other two books in the trilogy do remind me of fairy tales too.

Tolkien's poetry has a lovely rhythm to it. A long time ago I had a record of Tolkien reading some of his own poetry. But it got lost in one of many moves my family made from place to place. (I'll have to check if there is some place online where we can hear spoken versions of some of the poems)

ALF, the attention to detail in describing the scenery is one of the things I love about this story. You feel that you are right there!

Brumie, I've reread the trilogy many times and each time I find something new and rediscover things I had forgotten.

FrancyLou, I'm interested in why you felt the Rings books beginning with this one as being artificial and unreal.? LOL I'm trying to ask a question but it didn't quite come out that way!

Sheila, would it be better to say that the Ring is a -or perhaps 'the'-pivotal point around which the story revolves rather than my saying it is a 'character' in the story?

Hobbits are not always nice -I guess they are just like us humans in that respect, we are not always nice either. I notice that the hobbits like to gossip and a lot of it goes on after Frodo sells Bag End to the Sackville-Bagginses and Lobelia finally gets what she has wanted for so long.

Page 78: the stranger with the strange voice talking to the Gaffer: danger is already close and one wonders if Frodo will make it out of the Shire at all.

Page 80: One of the lovely descriptions:

The night was clear, cool, and starry, but smoke-like wisps of mist were creeping up the hill-sides from the streams and deep meadows. Thin-clad birches, swaying in the light wind above their heads, made a black net against the pale sky.

And don't you like this little poem? (page 82)

"The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with weary feet,
Until it joins some larger way,
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say."

Things are getting exciting, are they not?

I agree that the descriptions in these books are so very exceptional. I cannot put my finger on why that is so? Can someone help? Usually, descriptions of landscape and weather will put me to sleep, but not once did I ever get sleepy reading Tolkien.

When Gandalf said "Through Gollum the Enemy has learned that the One has been found. He knows where Isildur fell. He knows where Gollum found the ring. He know that it is a Great Ring, for it gave long life .........He knows that it is the One. And he has at last heard, I think, of hobbits and the Shire. The Shire - he may be seeking for it now....I FEAR HE MAY EVEN THINK THAT THE LONG UNNOTICED NAME OF BAGGINS HAS BECOME IMPORTANT." Frodo becomes afraid and ask "Why didn't you make me throw it away, OR DESTROY IT!" To throw it away would be wrong because the Ring has a way of being found. In evil hands it would do great evil - even worse if it fell into the hands of the Enemy! And to destroy it - how would you do that Gandalf ask Frodo! Frodo said "suppose one could hammer it or melt it!"

So Frodo tried to fling it into the very hottest part of the fire but he couldn't do it, not without a struggle. He even tried to cast it away but he found that he put it back in his pocket. So Frodo could not easily let go, no will to damage it!

Gandalf told Frodo that his small fire would not melt even ordinary gold and the Ring had already passed through Frodo's small fire unscratched and unheated. "It has been said that dragon fire could melt and consume the Ring of Power but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor there were ever any dragon....... who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling One, for that was made by Sauron himself." (pg. 59) Then Frodo ask then how could the Ring be destroyed? Gandalf said "There is only one way: to find the cracks of Doom......to cast the Ring in there, if you really want to destroy it." Frodo wants the Ring destroyed but he was not made for perlious quests. He wishes he never saw the Ring and ask again "Why did it come to me? Why was I chosen?" Gandalf said it cannot be answered but he said "YOU HAVE BEEN CHOSEN, AND YOU MUST THEREFORE USE SUCH STRENGTH AND HEART AND WITS AS YOU HAVE."

Fordo then says "I CANNOT KEEP THE RING AND STAY HERE. I OUGHT TO LEAVE BAG END, LEAVE THE SHIRE, LEAVE EVERYTHING AND GO AWAY."

So it has been decided what to do with the Ring and where to go. There journey is to destroy it by casting it into the CRACKS OF DOOM. Frodo ask "What course am I to take?" "Towards danger; but not too rashy, nor too straight; answered the wizard....make for Rivendell." He (Frodo) made an interesting statement (pg 65) "Bilbo went to find treasurer, there and back again; but I go to lose one, and not return, as far as I can see."

And right there, Brumie, is where we know we're not in a children's story any more.

What is it about Frodo that makes his friends so loyal? Also, I realized today that "Peregrin" is a play on peregrination. What about Merry (Meriadoc)?

Sasha: I agree l00% that LOTR is not a children's book. I read where one critic called it "Adult Fantasy." I also read the following: "From the very first, Tolkien wants us to understand that this is a story told in another language. Yet at the same time, Tolkien's preface announces that he wants his readers to read this text as if it were not fiction in the modern sense but legend, which folklorists defiine as a story told as if it were true." That was in reference to The Hobbit and I'm sure this applies to the LOTR. I've been reading it as such.

One other thing someone said about Tolkien's writing: What words has the writer chose to use? What are the possible meanings of these words? How does each word connect to the others around it? Tolkien loved words right?

Sasha: I'll think on your question "What is it about Frodo that makes his friend so loyal?" Good question.

Brumie,

I think LOTR is indeed a 'children's book'. I have known 13 year olds who are in love with it. Indeed, teens have formed clubs to immerse themselves in the whole Middle Earth venue. I suppose we must clarify what we mean by children's literature. IMO some of the best stories - and best writing - are in the young readers and young adult markets. Of course Tolkien's writing is so rich that it can satisfy an adult's broader perspective and appreciation for language and symbolism, but the story stands on its own with most age levels.

As an ex-teacher, I am sometime appalled at the dumbing down of what we expect of the minds and imaginations of young people.

you're absolutely right. Blame me, not Brumie. I read both The Hobbit and LOTR to my godchildren, one as young as 2, and they were entralled every night. I fell off a cliff when I made that remark about "not for children;" I guess I was thinking (+-) about the knowledge of real world evil conveyed in LOTR.

Sheilak: Maybe I'm "young at heart."

Sasha and Brumie, sorry about the name mixup. 'Teen moment'

Sasha, I'm so glad you read to your grandchildren. What a treasure for you all! Hope they caught your love of reading. It's one of the best gifts we can give anyone.

Thank you, Nellie & Brumie, for pointing out that Frodo is trying to get rid of the ring. I had forgotten this important point. My memory held the vague idea that Frodo had left his home to protect his neighbors from the trouble which the ring attracts. I had forgotten about the "cracks of doom" where the ring can be destroyed. These discussions are definitely a help to my understanding of this story. They also prod me to keep on reading the story.

To tell the truth, sometimes I feel that the book gets bogged down with all the description, as lovely as it is...and I turn to the other books I'm reading at the same time, which are more compelling (e.g. "Waiting", by Ha Jin, a "must read!"). Does anyone else get this "bogged down" feeling at times while reading The Fellowship of the Ring? The plot does move slowly, no? I hope I can keep myself reading to the end. I often get impatient with slow-moving plots. Do any of you get this feeling at times?

Rita

Here's a poignant memory: As I lay dying (fortunately I changed my mind) one of my children thanked me for reading The Lord of the Ring to him.

Nellie, I am not very good at "discribing" how I feel - maybe I used the wrong words.

I am beginning to "feel" Frodo. As afraid as he and his friends are (which I feel at times, but go on) they keep on going.

My boys both read these books when they were around 12 & 13 - and loved them. I usually read whatever they read first to be sure it is okay for them to read. Therefore I am pretty sure I tried to read these at that time. I am also pretty sure it was a school assignment . So I think I must have given up, because I know/knew Bilbo, Frodo names, but not Goldberry (I love her discription - wish I could be just like her).

I am into the book now !!!

I read the Hobbit in the early forties - I still have my copy with loose pages and Tolkien's own illustrations. I got the three volumes of LTR from the library in the late fifties (I wasn't buying books then). I read the Hobbit to my four children while I nursed the baby - the one who likes to say she got Tolkien with her mother's milk. Tolkien once said that he wrote the Hobbit for his children, but when he wrote LTR during WWII the children had all grown up and he could deal directly with evil.

The comments on hobbits have been interesting; I think I fully believed in these beings from childhood. The hobbits are quintessentially English yeomanry, especially Sam. To my mind the elves are caricatures of the French, as the Orcs are of Russians. This is especially evident in the Hobbit. I leave the dwarves to you.

I will get out and reread (for the umpteenth time) my copies of LTR. I look forward to further discussion.

SASHA asked the question "What is it about Frodo that makes his friends so loyal?" On page 85 (after they spend some times with the Elves) Frodo asked Sam "Do you feel any need to leave the Shire now - now that your wish to see them has come true already?" Sam's reply "Yes, sir. I don't know how to say it, but after last night I feel different. I seem to see ahead, in a kind of way. I know we are going to take a very long road, into darkness; but I know I can't turn back. It isn't to see Elves now, nor dragons, nor mountains, that I want - I don't right know what I want: BUT I HAVE SOMETHING TO DO BEFORE THE END, AND IT LIES AHEAD, NOT IN THE SHIRE. I MUST SEE IT THROUGH, SIR, IF YOU UNDERSTAND ME." Boy-o-boy did I miss that! That's why Sam was so loyal and maybe the part of seeing the Elves were true with Merry and Pippin. Also it sounds like Sam has a real purpose "He has something to do before the end."

Like you Fancylou I'm feel afraid for Frodo and his companions. I also have a feeling of suspense when the "black riders" are looking for Frodo. I love the way Frodo put it to Pippin and Sam "...but I felt certain he was looking or smelling for me." S M E L L I N G?!!!

welcome. We're just getting revved up. I confess to having discovered Tolkien in high school.

Rita and FrancyLou, this is the first time I've gotten "bogged down" reading LOTR, but I blamed that on the fact that it gets harder and harder for me to concentrate on anything. There are places, though, and the Old Forest is one of them, that just have to be slogged through. There's a possibility here that Tolkien was such a good writer that we're simply meant to be sharing the fatigue and foreboding of the hobbits. The fact that I race through Moria with the Company makes me think I may be on the right track. Enjoy the pun if you can.

Brumie, good. Sam, at least, is aware of the larger purpose. That speech you quote is probably the heart of Sam. Yes, smelling. And you've hit on something ELSE I shall think more about: Tolkien's way of involving all the senses. I keep thinking ahead to Lórien, where the Company is blindfolded. SWN, that's also the place where Gimli convinces me he's German!

Elizabeth, thank heaven you did.

I read this on the internet tonight and found it interesting. "In the Old Forest, we see that Sauron is not the only force working against the Hobbits; there are things in Middle Earth that do evil or good and yet have no concern for the Dark Lord either way. These forces are usually represented by forces in nature. In Tolkien's world, nature is not usually concerned with the affairs of men (or Hobbits), and yet it is almost always distinctly good or evil --- nature is rarely neutral. Even trees are seemingly given a will and as influence -- and trees are perhaps the most important thing in nature for Tolkien."

Whew, I'm going to have to read all the posts faster just to keep up with all of you!

A hearty welcome to BabsNH and SWN!

BabsNH, I think that Tolkien's description are exceptional because they are of familiar things that we have seen ourselves. I find I see the world in a fresh new way after reading these books. Even a rainy day becomes something special because I remember Goldberry and her washing day and Tom Bombadil running through the rain without getting wet.

Brumie, at one point Frodo offers the ring to Gandalf, who denies the offer and says something that I think is quite revealing of his character:

"Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. Do not tempt me! I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe, unused. The wish to wield it would be too great for my strength. I shall have such need of it. great perils lie before me.

You can feel Gandalf's anguish as he withstands the temptation of the Ring which he knows he will need in the times to come.

Is the Ring trilogy for children or is it an Adult Fantasy? I think it is for all ages; no matter how young or how old you are you can enjoy these books.

Rita, if you are reading the Ring books for the first time, the best thing to do is to skim over the descriptions; that is what I did on my first reading. I read to find out what was going to happen next and the descriptions slowed me down. Then I put the books away for a year and read them again and this time I savoured each and every lovely description.

FrancyLou, I'm glad you are getting into this book! Goldberry is lovely isn't she? And Tom is so carefree!

SWN, what interesting different viewpoints on hobbits, elves, and orcs. I'd love to hear more on this!

Elizabeth, I ditto Brumie's 'thank heaven you did'!

We will be going on to the next six chapters, although we are free to discuss what happens in the first six chapters as well. I'm going to put some new questions in the heading to replace the old ones.

{{{hugs}}} to you all!

One final thought: When Frodo is talking to Gildor (the Elf - leader) he ask "But where can I find courage? This is what I chiefly need." Gildor replied "Courage is found in unlikely places. Be of good hope! ......The Wanderiing Companies shall know of your journey, and those that have power for good shall be on the watch. I name you Elf-friend; and may the stars shine upon the end of your road!"

Thank you Sasha and Nellie!

I'll take your advice and skim and slog through the parts where the book bogs down. At least you confirmed for me that the Old Forest is one of those places.

Sometimes I tire of the same old references to nature in the book. After a while it's the same old words used over and over again...stars, wind, woods, water, etc.

Sorry to be such a curmudgeon here, but there are so many books which I want to read and I don't want to waste a minute being bored with a book.

I'm going to continue to read The Fellowship because I know it has so many good qualities and fascinating characters (even though there sometimes seems to be too many of them to remember).

Also, I want to be able to keep up with this interesting discussion. I find the remarks very interesting and am hoping to expand my horizons. Thanks to all who take the time to point out the various quotes from the book which confirm the comments here. I find those quotes very helpful because, Heaven knows, it's so easy to miss important parts hidden in the fullness of the prose.

Gratefully, Rita

Nellie: Gandalf, to me, is a wise character. I read "Gandalf also plays an extremely important role in LOTR. He sometimes serves as the mouthpiece for Tolkien's own belief and often foreshadows later developement in the plot." In your post Gandalf proved to be such - he resisted the "temptation" of having the ring. To me that shows a wise and strong character.

Rita: Hang in there!

Well now I have found a part of the book that I think Steven King got his Dark Towers ideas from... middle earth = territories. Many many movies and books were influenced by this book.

Rita, I hope you hang in there with us. And it is perfectly OK to just lurk once in a while -I do it all the time in other discussions, both those I take part in and those I don't.

I love the picture of slogging through the Old Forest as we read. Isn't that one creepy place though? Yet I have walked in a less magical forest and have had that same feeling of being watched. I think Tolkien does a good job of capturing that feeling. What do you think?

Rita, I'm thinking of the recurring of words in the descriptions of nature in the story and maybe in other things as well. If Tolkien means this trilogy to be a telling of imaginary legends, then one could imagine that those legends may first have been related orally and repetition can be an important aid to memorization.

Any thoughts on Tom Bombadil? I have a few but it is too dim to read my notes and too bright still to be closing the drapes and turning on the lights.

Brumie, I almost forgot about you and about Gandalf. He is wise and has lots of power and he is a good friend to both Bilbo and Frodo. To me it seems as if he can change the size he is because he appears tall in my imagination, yet he easily fits inside a hobbit hole. Gandalf will be very important in the story.

Hi FrancyLou, you've just been posting ahead of me while I was busy typing. Tolkien did influence a lot of writers imo. Some borrow from him wholesale and some reinvent what he has done.

I'm like you Nellie enjoying the picture of slogging through the Old Forest. I'm a walker and I love the forest! I duck with Frodo, Sam, and Pippin when the Black Riders appear! I liked meeting Mr. Maggot, his family, and his dogs (Grip! Fang! and Wolf!) I found a humorous situation. When Frodo, Sam, and Pippin arrived to Frodo's new home Merry prepared three tubs for them to take their bath. Pippin was busy singing one of Bilbo's bath-songs. Probably the part that says "O! Water is fair that leaps on high in a fountain white beneath the sky; but never did fountain sound so sweet as splashing Hot Water with my feet!" There was a "terrific splash, and a shout of WHOA! from Frodo. It appeared that a lot of Pippin's bath had imitated a fountain and leaped on high." Merry heard this so he goes to the door and looks in. The stone floor was swimming!

I think the company's experience in the Downs is one of the most frightening in the entire book. They are saved by Tom Bombadil, who will take them no further than the boundary of his lands. I have always wondered just where to place Bombadil in the general mythology of Middle Earth. Other beings have parallels in folklore, but I can't find an analog for him. Anybody have any ideas?

Something else I find interesting: Rowling outlined her entire series before she wrote her first book. Tolkien said (I can't quote where I read this) that when Strider enters the action at Bree he (Tolkien) had no idea whether he was good or evil. Madeleine L'Engle has also said that her characters developed "wills of their own" and her stories did not always go where she had originally planned. Apparently different authors work in different ways.

I'm interested in Tom Bombadil, too, SWN. I wonder if we can safely categorize him as "earth father," or, with Goldberry (and that's another subject), half of "earth parents." He IS older than dirt: " ... you are young and I am old. Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees ... ." Yet his boundaries are restrictive; what to make of that? His choice, or his maker's? Boundaries of space, not of time?

Not to set myself against Rita, but I find myself most comfortable with Tolkien's descriptions of the "natural world." We see it first through the eyes of the hobbits, then of old Tom, later of the dwarves and (my favorites) the elves. We're of a civilization that just finished "subduing" nature, so, as a card-carrying tree-hugger, I'm delighted to read anything that respects the power of trees. Or, to be more literal, nature, in terms of the terrain Frodo has to pass through, is an active force in the story, and so, in Nellie's term, a character, like the ring.

Good heavens; I could type a thesis with the stuff y'all've got running through my head!

I know I should be reading instead of writing here, but it's this conversation which keeps me reading.

It was mentioned that other writers borrowed from Tolkien. Iris Murdoch wrote a book called, "The Severed Head". When I read about the "severed hand wriggling still" which Frodo saw (p. 139, my book), I wondered if that might have given her ideas. That's a stretch, but still, I wonder. And how about Tom Bombadil's "ring a ding dillo" (p.122). Does that remind you of Frank Sinatra's "Ringa ding ding?" (g)

Brumie mentioned the tub scene. Yes that was a good one. I enjoyed the poems in that scene, evoking the idea of how wonderful hot water can be! "Water hot poured down the back." So true.

Nellie and Sasha, thanks for helping me to appreciate the repetition of the "nature words" in this book.

Yes, I'm hanging in there. What a grand group this is!

Rita

[PS-The correct title of Murdoch's book was: "A Severed Head" (1961). The words from Tolkien's "Fellowship" (1954) were: "...a severed hand".]

NOTE: The following Tolkien link at the NY Times may prove interesting at this time:
http://www.nytimes.com/specials/advertising/movies/tolkien/index.html

On the above webpage there is a link to "Tolkien Cover Art" where you can see pictures of past dust-jackets drawn by Tolkien himself. The link is toward the bottom of the webpage and it says:
===================
SLIDE SHOW
Tolkien Cover Art
Rare editions of Tolkien's books, as well as the author's unused jacket designs for "The Lord of the Rings."
===================
There are many other interesting articles on the webpage. Perhaps SeniorNet has already put up this link. I haven't really had time to explore that possibility. So this may be a repeat for some of you. I thought it was worth mentioning anyway.

Rita

Shakespeare's verses are full of nonsense rhymes "Sing hey, nony nonny", as are many folksongs. I think this part of Bombadil's songs is just following tradition. Bombadil shares some of the characteristics of English fairies, especially in his clothing, but he is human sized. I think we're still missing something here.

It is impossible to read this without thinking some force opposed to Sauron is watching over the hobbits. After the experience in Bree I thought "They need a Keeper!" They were helped first by Farmer Marrow, then by Bombadil (why didn't he go with them to the Borders to start with?) and finally by Strider. They still barely make it to Rivendell. They will be accompanied later by the Fellowship of the Ring created at Rivendell.

Brumie, the bath scene is a wonderful one and as one reads it one relaxes with the hobbits as for a short while all the troubles and dangers are forgotten.

I think that one of the more humourous characters in the book is Barliman Butterbur the innkeeper at The Prancing Pony.

SWN, I'm seeing Tom Bombadil as a type of nature spirit, like the Green Man perhaps. We only see him in these few chapters; although he is mentioned later at the Council of Elrond. Even though he only is in three chapters, he is a rather well thought out and developed character. I see something childlike in the way Tom is. What do you all think?

Tom Bombadil is 'the Master of wood, water, and hill." but the land and the things on it belong to themselves and Tom does not own them. He was there before everything and everyone. He seems isolated within the boundaries of his domain; yet he has regular contact with people in the wider world like Farmer Maggot.

Tom is so guileless and fearless that it is easy for Frodo to confide in him, and while doing so, Tom suddenly says:

"Show me the precious Ring!"...and Frodo, to his own astonishment, drew out the chain from his pocket, and unfastening the Ring handed it at once to Tom.

And Tom is totally unaffected by the Ring: he puts it on and does not disappear; when Frodo puts it on to test that it is still his Ring, Tom sees him as clearly as if Frodo were not wearing it.

There must be some force for good protecting Frodo and his friends for they are constantly getting into trouble and being rescued in the nick of time.

Does it seem to you that when Frodo call for Tom Bombadil with that little rhyme, that Tom appears awfully fast?

Rita, hot water over the back is a lovely thing. I love to let the hot water from the shower run over my back -so relaxing. Have you found any other pieces in this book that you particularly like?

Must go until tomorrow.

This should be the last of my drumming on Tolkien's command of the atmosphere around his heroes, and sounds a little out of place after Nellie's post, but I've worked on it all day, so here it comes!

From A Knife in the Dark: "All that day they plodded along, until the cold and early evening came down. The land became drier and more barren;but mists and vapours lay behind them on the marshes. A few melancholy birds were piping and wailing, until the round red sun sank slowly into the western shadows; then an empty silence fell. The hobbits thought of the soft light of sunset glancing through the cheerful windows of Bag End far away."

Part of our assurance that Tolkien created the entirety of Middle Earth, its languages, its terrain, its big and little folk, stems from his total control of his description of every part of it. And now I'll get back to the adventure of it.

Tom Bombadil seems like "mother nature" to me. I loved that he sang and danced almost all the time.

I had felt it quit odd that more wild animals were not named... birds, deer, rabbits.... since they are traveling at night when most animals that are prey are out eating it is quite strange that they don't see more. Of course the Crows/Ravens are evil, and the testicals from whatever kind of animal that is, that come out of the lake and grabed Frodo are evil...

My goodness I am surprised the Pastors are not up in arms about this movie... it has magic, wizards, goblins, hobbits, etc.

I have forgotten what passage reminded me of the Bible.... so he used everything in his knowledge to write this amazing tale.

Well, I've been stuck in a "hole" for a few days the reason is I wanted to answer the question, for my own satisfaction, "what about is it about Frodo that makes his friends so loyal?" I found my answer.

Frodo, Pippin, Sam, and Merry were gathered around the fire Merry revealed the secret that they new about the Ring! One day Merry saw Bilbo disappear and reappear. He saw Bilbo put something gold in his pocket. When Bilbo left they decided to keep a very close eye on Frodo especially when he said "Shall I ever look down into that Valley again...." They were afraid Frodo might disappear! Frodo then says "But it seems that I cannot trust anyone." Sam said they could keep their secret and he could trust them. But he added "You cannot trust us to let you face trouble alone, and go off without a word. We are your friends .....We know a good deal about the Ring. We are horribly afraid but we are COMING WITH YOU; OR FOLLOWING YOU LIKE HOUNDS....." Frodo said "You are a sort of deceitful! But added "But bless you....I cannot help feeling happy; happier than I have felt for a long time. I have dreaded this evening."

There is also a scene where Frodo has a dream and I've thought it is more or less a foretelling of the future (pg. 106).

"Then he heard a noise in the distance. At first he thought it was a great wind coming over the leaves of the forest. Then he knew that it was not leaves, but the sound of the Sea far-off; a sound he had never heard in waking life, though it had often troubled his dreams. Suddenly he found he was out in the open. There were not trees after all. He was on a dark heath, and there was a strange salt smell in the air. Looking up he saw before him a tall white tower, standing alone on a high ridge. A great desire came over him to climb the tower and see the Sea. He started t struggle up the ridge towards the tower: but suddendly a light came in the sky, and there was a noice of thunder."

This makes me feel as though the "curtain is falling" end of act. Now, I can run to catch up with you all!!!!!!!! (hehehehe)

I think the Green Man label for Bombadil is right on the money. Goldberry, is, of course, a water nymph.

Are we ready to discuss the Council meeting in Rivendell?

thank you. That's exactly what I was struggling to understand, and you found the exact passages. And now I'll have to go off on ANOTHER tangent: Frodo's dreams and whatchacallems ... waking dreams ... can't think of the word.

I think FrancyLou has it right about Tom personifying nature. A neutral nature, whose emotions are reserved for his own kind (does anyone remember the 5th Dimension's version of "Riverwitch?": the same myth, but sultry, seductive, instead of joyous and clean.). That neutrality might be why he came to Frodo only when called.

SWN, I'm more than ready: that's my favorite episode in all of "The Fellowship." You start.

SWN, I'm not quite ready for the Council of Elrond but go ahead if you will; however don't go to far ahead of the discussion schedule -the Council was slated to begin on next Saturday.

Sasha, no post is ever out of place. I like your thoughts on Tolkien's writing and how through his descriptions he controls the whole development of Middle Earth.

FrancyLou, I've wondered the same thing at times about why Christian pastors are not up in arms about this book and the other books. Perhaps it has to do with its nature as a fantasy?

It is odd that not many animals are named or described in this story with so many detailed descriptions.

Brumie, Frodo's friends are loyal to him because they love him and care what happens to him; and that is what the bit you quoted tells us.

Frodo has at least two dreams that seem to foretell the future: the first is the one on page 106, which you mention; and the second is related on page 138 and takes place on their first night at Tom Bombadil's house: in it Frodo sees a pinnacle of stone, like a tower and a man with white hair standing on top of it, and a giant eagle comes and takes the man away from the evil things below the tower of stones.

Not much has been said about Strider as yet, other than that Tolkien did not know whether Strider was good or evil when he was first introduced into the story. Let us look at Strider through Frodo's eyes:

Suddenly Frodo noticed that a strange-looking weather-beaten man, sitting in the shadows near the wall, was also listening intently to the hobbit-talk. He had a tall tankard in front of him, and was smoking a long-stemmed pipe curiously carved. His legs were stretched out before him, showing high boots of supple leather that fitted him well, but had seen much wear and were now caked with mud. A travel-stained cloak of heavy dark-green cloth was drawn close about him, and in spite of the heat of the room he wore a hood that overshadowed his face; but the gleam of his eyes could be seen as he watched the hobbits. ...As Frodo drew near he threw back his hood, showing a shaggy head of dark hair flecked with grey, and in a pale stern face a pair of keen grey eyes.

From that description does Strider seem trustful to you?

More on Strider tomorrow...

Nellie, I tend to trust Strider.
But now you've got me worried. (g)

Rita

"The Making of Lord of the Rings" will be on Sci-Fi at midnight Eastern and Pacific. Good hour!

I am beginning to think of the Hobbits as if they are children.... their age seems to have nothing to do with the way the act. They seem to know who to trust... someone always comes to their rescue...

I have finally finished reading Book One (Chapters 1-12) of The Fellowship. I'm now starting on Book Two.

From the discussion schedule here, I assume that discussion of Book Two won't begin until December 15. Good, that gives me some time to read more. I'm determined to find out what this is all about, although I find the reading slow-going. Maybe it's just me. I like the atmosphere of the book, but still, sometimes I'm impatient for the storyline to move along.

I've spoken to several readers about LOTR and many of them say they started reading it and couldn't get into it or through it for one reason or another. Why do you think this is?

Naturally, the posters here are great fans of the book or they wouldn't be posting. I'm just trying to find out what the percentages are regarding people who liked this book and people who didn't. What is your impression of the percentages from your conversations with friends? Has everyone you know liked it or not?

I like the story and the characters, but I feel the storyline drags at times, especially when Tolkien contantly describes the geography and the layout of the land, with paths going this way and that, up and down. I know this is a way of establishing the "atmosphere, but there seems to be too much of that type of description. It goes on and on.

I've come to accept the fact that endless new names of people and places are always appearing as I read. I've almost given up trying to keep track of them. Seems like over-kill to me at times, even though I know this is again a way of giving depth to the story by building historical background for the storyline.

Has anyone ever heard criticism of these drawn-out features of the book? Do you think that some of the sections could be edited without hurting the story? Is this blasphemy? (g)

I'm especially interested in how the movie is going to handle all this detail.

Please forgive me if I'm bringing a negative aspect into this discussion, but these things are constantly on my mind and I feel this is a good place to talk about them.

Rita

Rita, I agree. I asked my oldest son (he read them when he was about 13 years old). He said he thought the Hobbit was great, but the rest of the books did not measure up.

I watched the making of the movie on Sci-Fi last night. My husband kept talking - so I missed some of the explaining. But they have the Hobbiton almost as I saw it in my mind.

But the elves they have as tall (like basketball players). I saw them as short in my mind. They showed a seen where they are following Gandalf, not even close to my picture of the characters. So I wonder how the young people who read the book will feel about the movie.

OH, and the Hobbits are played by teenagers - so the director saw them as children (that was not just me).

I think most of the characters are played teeenagers (not Gandalf or Soran). So that messes up my theory in a way.

Did any of you get to see it last night?

I once participated in a discussion of Frodo as a Christ figure. We are early on in the books as yet and this is not at all evident. But this may be the reason for no more howls of outrage. Also, LOTR has been available in print for many years, and was the darling of the Hippie culture. I remember feeling outraged that Hippies had discovered MY book, which I had cherished for years. I understand that Tolkien was almost driven crazy by his new and unwanted popularily.

I agree that the hobbits are childlike - remember that for hobbits coming of age is 50, so they are still pretty young. They really do need a keeper. There is much growth and change in the course of the books, especially in the hobbits. We see one of Strider's faces in the first book; he has many. I don't think he changes as the hobbits do, but more is revealed. Gandalf is, of course, Gandalf.

How do I see the Hobbits in my imagination as I read? I imagine them much like the 7 dwarfs of "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs". I've already surmised that the movie does not show them as such. I realized this as I looked at the picture of the handsome young actor on the paperback copy of "The Fellowship..." which I recently bought at Walmarts. So I'm already prepared for the disappointment.

FrancyLou, I'm happy to find someone on the same wavelength. To answer you question, I didn't see last night's program on the making of the movie. I'm glad. I prefer to keep my own image of the Hobbits as I read. They seem so sweet and sincere. I love Sam's loyalty to Frodo. I love Frodo's vulnerability. I think vulnerable characters (and people) are the most appealing.

Rita

Sasha, thanks for the info on the Making of the LOTR movie! I won't get to see that until much later in December since we don't have the Sci-Fi channel in Canada -at least not where I am.

FrancyLou, I have the same picture of the hobbits being childlike in nature. And someone bigger is always there to get them out of trouble. When Old Man Willow is trying to drown and eat them, along comes Tom Bombadil to save the day; and later when they are in trouble with the barrow-wight, Tom again saves the day.

Rita, you ask some very interesting and thoughful questions about this story. I'm going to have to think some more on the one that asks if parts of the book could be edited out without harming the book. Should there be less description? I'm not sure. I think the detailed descriptions of the scenery Frodo, Pippin, Merry, and Sam -and soon also Strider-travel through is to give us a sense of travelling with them; we are seeing through their eyes in a way. Also Tolkien wanted to establish Middle Earth as a 'real' place and one way to do that is to 'paint' or 'photograph' the scenery using words.

What would you edit out, if you were an editor who had just had this book submitted to you?

SWN, Frodo as a Christ figure. Interesting. Maybe we could keep that in mind as we get into the other books.

I've always pictured Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin as young boys with slightly more adult faces and all a bit on the homely side.

Rita, I think you can keep trusting Strider, although at first it may not seem like it. For instance Strider's advice to Frodo to stop Merry and Pippin from giving things away by their story telling, goes awry when Frodo accidentally puts his finger through the Ring while imitating a cow jumping over the moon and disappears.

When they come back to their rooms they find Strider sitting in a chair by the door. He tells them he has information but that he wants a reward for telling it. And the reward he wants is that Frodo takes him along on his travels. Frodo is mistrustful and Sam most certainly does not trust Strider. Are they right in their mistrust at that moment? But the letter from Gandalf changes things for it establishes Strider as a friend.

They will soon be travelling on with Strider/Aragon as their guide and the Black Riders will not be far behind. Frodo cannot escape them for it is the Ring that draws them.

More thoughts tomorrow

Merry is talking to Pippin (pg. l08)"They do say the trees do actually move, and can surround strangers and hem them in. In fact long ago they attacked the Hedge: they came and planted themselves right by it, and leaned over it. But the Hobbits came and cut down hundreds of trees, and made a great bondfire in the Forest, and burned all the ground in a long strip of Hedge. After that the trees gave up the attack, but they became very unfriendly." When I read this I thought "Wow! This made me immediately think of the small trees (and weeds) growing in my yard where I don't want them to! Grow next to my fence and by the foundation of my house! Sometimes it's war!! Yep, trees do move!!!

I was talking to my audiologist this afternoon and she had seen the previews if the movie.. Lord of the Rings... and her opinion.. She would not bother with the movie... because she felt it destroyed the wonderful images that she had formed reading the series...

Frodo heard behind his head a cracking and scraping sound. "Raising himself on one arm he looked, and saw now in the pale light they were in a kind of passage which behind them turned a corner." Round the corner there appeared a long arm that was groping and walking on its fingers towards Sam. A wild thought of escape came to him. He thought of the ring whether the Barrow-wight would miss him and he might find his way out. "But the courage that had been awakened in him was now too strong: he could not leave his friends so easily. He wavered, groping in his pocket, and then fought with himself again; and as he did so the arm crept nearer." He found a short sword beside him and he stooped low over the bodies of his friends. "With what strength he had he hewed at the crawling arm near the wrist, and the hand broke off; but at the same moment the sword splintered up to the hilt....." Frodo didn't use the Ring (to disappear) but stayed close by his friends.

NELLIE: Strider (Aragon) is my favorite character. If You all haven't already go to Appendix A page l032 - 1038. Lot of good information about him there.

LOTR: I my opinion I would not edit this story at all. Just like the post I did about the trees Tolkien made it so real to me. I could see the trees taking over (moving, walking).

PAT: I don't want to see the movie either! I don't want anyone to tell me what to imagine - I want to use my own imagination!!!!!!!!!

Just quickly, because this is the best discussion going! Watching "The Making of ..." last night, it occurred to me that it took a generation raised with LOTR to make the movie properly. I think I vaguely remember an animated Hobbit or LOTR a while ago... evil! I'm really up for the movie, as long as I remember that these will be someone else's images, just as Rita's and Nellie's are theirs.

Brumie: hold that tree thought! (Besides, they moved in Macbeth, too. The perception is the reality.)

Well I got to the part of the book that says the Elves are very tall... so that is true to the book... I just see them as small (now I am guessing because of Santa's elves).

The Dwarfs are larger than I expected in the movie (I am in agreement I see Snow Whites Dwarfs).

I think I want to see all the beautiful scenary in the movie.... the book talks about the elves homes in the trees... the scene's in the movie are so beautiful.

Frodo finished singing one of Bilbo's song that had to do with cat, dog, cow, dishes, and the man in the moon the crowd said "sing it again!" So he does! When he came to the part that said "the cow jumped over the moon he leaped in the air! Matter of fact he came down with a BANG! CRASH! CLATTER! and BUMP! He had hit a "tray full of mugs, and slipped, and rolled off the table. Everyone was watching and "all opened their mouths wide for laughter, and stopped short in gaping silence; for the singer disappeared. He simply VANISHED, as if he had gone slap through the floor with leaving a hole!" Frodo felt foolish and he leaned back against the wall and took off the RING. "How did it get there?" He asked himself he figured that he had been handling it while he was singing and then somehow it had slipped on when he stuck out his hand to block his fall. OR "He wondered if the Ring itself had not played him a trick; perhaps it had tried to reveal itself in response to some wish or command that was felt in the room."

I've asked myself a question and that is: Is Frodo stronger than I believe him to be? Look how many times he has been tempted to put on the Ring (The Black Riders and to save his friends). Just a simple act caused it to happen. Bilbo didn't resist the temptation to put the ring on his finger!

It's interesting to see how we bring our own preconceptions and experiences to this story, i.e. what dwarves and elves look like. I think that's why I enjoy the descriptions of Tolkien's world. We're forced to participate in HIS story, not just ours. It helps expand our imaginations.

Brumie, IMO Frodo's strength really is his loyalty to his friends. Perhaps that is one of the primary characteristics of the Hobbit culture. They really care about their friends.

Also, Frodo's resistance to using the ring is heroic. As time goes on, he seems to see that the ring robs the bearer of something essential to who he is. He recognizes that the ring becomes the possessor. He doesn't want the responsibility that has been given him, but he doesn't really want to impose that heavy burden on anyone else, either. Of course he would have preferred Gandalf to take it, but he honored Gandalf's reasons for not taking it. He recognized the demands of a higher good for everyone involved, even at the tremendous cost to himself.

Perhaps humility is the word that best explains Frodo. What evil interprets as weakness, is actually the trait that enables Frodo to reject the invitation to use the ring's power.

I think we all carry the "ring" thru life. And at times we have all put it on, some more than others. Thinking it will get us to a feel better place, or a get more place, or a "get my way" place. Even Bilbo after many years, had a problem when he was getting ready to turn it over to Frodo. Being in the "Senior"net dicussions , most of us have learned thru life that to put on the ring, has too great a price attached to it. Putting on the ring keeps me from real contentment, peace of mind, and the ability to see and thoroughly enjoy the great beauty in nature and in the goodnesss that is in people. Frodo is a good person{charactor) and has good charactors around him for support, He is becoming convinced that the ring must be destroyed, above all else. For the common good. AS we know our ring must be destroyed-for our good and those around us. I will probably see the movie, but will wait till were thru with the books, I've got the charactors in my mind too , and do not want anything messing with that yet. ring = temptation(and then some) hope I didnt confuse anybody

I happen to re-read some and I plum forgot what happened when Tom Bombdail asked to see the Ring and then later Frodo put it on his finger and vanished! (pg. l3l)

There is also another side to this post #168 Frodo was teased about his act in the Prancing Pony. "Jumped over the Moon!" chuckled Merry. "Very ridiculous of you, Frodo! But I wish I had been there to see. The worthies of Bree will be discussing it a hundred years hence." pg. 171)

I am surprised at the strength of my reaction to the suggestion of editing Tolkien. Edit? Blasphemy! you might just as well suggest editing Shakespeare! If you don't like the descriptions, read something else! All of Tolkien's work is of a piece; the language is beautiful and he shows us Middle Earth through the eyes of his characters. So much is lost in making a movie of a classic, simply for the reason that editing is necessary to move from one medium to another. The place names are delightful; The River Hoarwell has a different name with the elves: it becomes Mitheiel. Both these names are associated with the color grey, or silver. There are similar examples of place names in the part of the books we have yet to read.

I think Aragorn becomes identified as a benign character when the rhyme about "...all that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost..." is revealed. Of course, once the group leaves Bree they would have probably perished immediately without Strider to lead and defend them.

Thus far I have found Gildor words to Frodo to be so true (and probably will hold true with the rest of the books) that courage is found in unlikely places (defending his companions) and "the wandering companies shall know of your journey, and those that have power for good shall be on the watch." Maggot, Tom Bombadil and Goldberry, Barliman Butterbur, and Strider.

SWN your post saying "Once the group leaves Bree they would probably perish immediately without Strider to lead and defend them" made me think of the above paragraph - thanks.

Hello everyone! This sure is a good discussion and thank you all for making it so!

Brumie, those 'moving' trees that put themselves where they are not wanted; I have the same problem with trees trying to grow where they shouldn't and am forever, it seems, pulling out little tree seedlings from the flower beds in my front yard. I find that the bigger they grow before I pull them out, the harder they are to get out. Sometimes there is a big tug-o-war between me and the roots holding the seedling in the ground - I can't dig because of all the perennials in the flower beds.

Frodo is as loyal to his friends as they are loyal to him. It goes both ways, doesn't it?

Brumie, this is a good question that you ask: "Is Frodo stronger than I believe him to be?" I'm going to put it up at the top

Sheila, "this story helps us to expand our imaginations" good point!

Timo, welcome to the discussion! So we each carry our 'Ring' with us; and that 'Ring' equals temptation? I see the Ring more as a promise, but a promise that cannot be kept. Would like to hear some more of your thoughts on this and on some of the things we have read so far.

I would go see the movie. I think the movie is only The Fellowship of the Ring part and not the whole trilogy. We'll be finished with Fellowship at the end of this month. Then we'll begin The Two Towers on January 2nd and The Return of the King in February.

I'm going to see the movie next week. I will be reminding myself that what I see is how a small group of people imagines things to be and I will compare it to my own imagination.

SWN, good one: "All of Tolkien's work is of a piece."

I think one of the things that has always gotten me about this Rings trilogy is the thought that one man had the patience to write all these words that we read. Should we not as readers have the patience to read those words as they are presented to us?

The beginning of the next chapter -A knife in the Dark- takes us back to the Shire and what happened there after Frodo and friends have left. The Black Riders come to the house at Crickhollow where Fatty Bolger keeps up the pretense that Frodo is still there; he runs for help and sets up an alarm, but the Riders leave knowing that the Ring is no longer there.

I love it when Sam throws the apple and hits Bill Ferny on the nose when they are leaving Bree. Sam is my favourite character and Strider (Aragorn) comes a close second.

The marshes and the midges (page 194) reminds me of a time we were on holidays in early autumn and were setting up camp late at night in northern Quebec and were swarmed by billions of midges; and just like with the hobbits they got up our noses, in our mouths, and under every bit of clothing we wore.

What is the light like lightning flashing up from the ground that Frodo sees in the distance? Something from the Enemy? We find out when they reach Weathertop that Gandalf had been there, but something drove him off.

And the Black Riders are at the bottom of the hill!

I'll be back tomorrow to read more of your interesting posts

Wonderful question, the one about Frodo's strength. I realize now that many of my convictions have been formed from insights I had when I read LOTR as a kid, and that my definitions of real power and real strength stem from Frodo's character. Remember the hippy mantra? "Frodo lives!" Sunday's paper was full of examples of arrogance: the Red Cross, the CIA, what have you. So now I'll go spend some more time with the Fellowship.

NELLIE: The question that reads "Is it truly an accident that Tom Bombadli came by just at the right time to save the Hobbits from Old Man Willow? I'll let Frodo ask Tom that question and let Tom speak!

"Did you hear me calling, Master, or was it just chance that brought you at that moment?"

Tom speaks "Did I hear you calling? Nay, I did not hear: I was busy singing. Just chance brought me then, if chance you call it. It was no plan of mine, though I was waiting for you. We heard news of you, and learned that you were wandering. We guessed you'd come ere long down to the water: all paths lead that way, down to Withywindle. Old grey Willow-man, he's a might singer; and it's hard for little folks to escape his cunning mazes. But Tom had an errand there, that he dared not hinder." (pg. 123 - 124)

Everybody loves Sam; most of us can identify with him in the same way we can identify with Simon Peter in the gospels.

Sam's position in the beginning book is really that of servant. His main mission in life is to serve and protect Frodo, and in aid of that he refuses to be separated from him even when Frodo is called to the Council of Elrond. In WWI (Tolkien's war) British officers had soldiers who accompanied them as body servants called batmen - I'd guess contracted from bathmen. Of all the characters in the books, Sam grows and changes most.

Timo, your suggestion that we all carry the ring seemed immediately true, but I can't identify when I have used IT. I know I have, but don't know what IT is! The closest I can come is: there have been times of high drama and need in my life when I have declared, "So be it. Life must go on." And life has gone on often to somebody else's dismay and my needs being accomplished, but still, I can't identify the ring in words. Can you?

Good points everyone!

Page 202: we learn more about the nature of the Black Riders:

"For the black horses can see, and the Riders can use men and other creatures as spies, as we found at Bree. They themselves do not see the world of light as we do, but our shapes cast shadows in their minds, which only the noon sun destroys; and in the dark they perceive many signs and forms that are hidden from us: then they are most to be feared. And at all times they smell the blood of living things, desiring and hating it. Senses, too, there are other than sight or smell. We can feel their presence- it troubled our hearts, as soon as we came here, and before we saw them; they feel ours more keenly. Also,'he added, and his voice sank to a whisper,'the Ring draws them.'"

The Black Riders sound quite frightful, don't they?

Page 204 and 205: the lovely poem that makes up the tale of Tinuviel -what a beautiful name!-certainly takes the minds of our little company and the minds of us readers off the dangers that are near.

Page 207: something is creeping up the hill and soon Black Riders are standing at the lip of the dell, looking down on them and causing terror among the hobbits. Merry and Pippin throw themselves to the ground. Sam positions himself close to Frodo. Frodo has this intense desire to put on the Ring.

...but his terror was swallowed up in a sudden temptation to put on the Ring. The desire to do this laid hold of him, and he could think of nothing else. He did not forget the Barrow, nor the message of Gandalf; but something seemed to be compelling to disregard all warnings, and he longed to yield. Not with the hope of escape, or of doing anything, either good nor bad: he simply felt that he must take the Ring and put it on his finger. ...He shut his eyes and struggled for a while; but resistance became unbearable, and at last he slowly drew out the chain, and slipped the Ring on the forefinger of his left hand.

Even the strongest person can give into temptation and Frodo is fighting an enemy far stronger in the arts of magic than he will ever be.

But once he has given in to their desire, he seems to gain strength again and manages to stab the Black Rider who stabs him in the shoulder with the knife, in the foot with his own knife. Then he manages to take the Ring from his finger.

I wonder what significance there is to Frodo putting the ring on the forefinger of his left hand?

Tomorrow the last chapter in this section and then we come to the Council...

gee, I hope you have a theory about left forefinger. I'm stumped, unless he needed his right hand free for Sting. Are there Christian icons of saints holding up that finger, or am I making this up? It wouldn't make sense, anyway, since Frodo slips into evil, not good, with the gesture. And the action makes the evil of the "Black Riders" much more visible to him, and he to them, even while it gives him strength to battle them. Hmm: the strength to wage battle coomes from evil. My amazement at Frodo's strength continues: "With a last effort, dropping his sword, Frodo slipped the ring from his finger and closed his right hand tight upon it. (Italics mine.) As the kids say, how did he DO that?

Humm I think my book is different than yours - the last chapter is when they all go in different directions - get scattered. Sam finds Frodo and they are going on alone.

Like your answer Sasha - good. I've been stumped on Frodo putting the Ring on his left hand too! One part of the story caught my eye "he felt a pain like a dart of poisoned ice pierce his left shoulder." I immediately thought of the heart and is there a connection left finger left shoulder. I honestly don't know.

you're on the right track, I think, but this is where I always start thinking, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." (Where did that come from, anyway?) Maybe left-right is just Tolkien piling up incredible detail to SHOW us the scene.

Hello all!

I think left is often associated with evil, and our left hand is also called the sinister hand -which I think means left in Latin (but don't quote me on that -so by putting the Ring on one of the fingers of the left hand Frodo is showing that he has given in to the forces of evil around him; and taking the ring off with his right hand and holding it tight therein shows us that good has once more gained the upper hand.

FrancyLou, we are just coming to the end of Book One of the Fellowship of the Ring and tomorrow will be starting on Book Two of The Fellowship of the Ring. I know it might be a bit confusing but each book of the trilogy contains two sections within it each of which is called a 'book': Book One and Book Two are found in the Fellowship of the Ring; Book Three and Book Four are found in The Two Towers; and Book Five and Book Six are found in The Return of the King.

The discussion of The Two Towers is coming up in January.

Flight to the Ford. There is some sort of poison in the piece of knife that broke off in Frodo's shoulder and it is making him ill. Are you at all surprised that Strider has some skill as a healer? Tolkien describes Frodo feeling ill so well that I can feel what Frodo feels as they travel along. There are others watching out for them because in the middle of the Last Bridge, Strider finds an elfstone, which means it is safe to cross.

On pages 217 to 220 there is a bit of humour to relieve the suspense that is building up, as they find the lair of the trolls with the turned to stone trolls standing outside and Sam's reciting of the funny poem.

Then the elf lord Glorfindel comes on a white horse to aid them on their flight to Elrond's house. Frodo is persuaded to ride the white horse as Glorfindel leads them on a series of swift marches to the Ford of Bruinen. There this exciting scene happens:

At once the white horse sprang away and sped like the wind along the last lap of the Road. At the same moment the black horses leaped down the hill in pursuit, and from the Riders came a terrible cry, such as Frodo had heard filling the woods with horror in the Eastfarthing far away. It was answered; and to the dismay of Frodo and his friends out from the trees and rocks away on the left four other Riders came flying. Two rode towards Frodo; two galloped madly towards the Ford to cut off his escape. They seemed to him to run like the wind and to grow swiftly larger and darker, as their courses converged with his.

Frodo is bravely defiant as he faces his enemies with his sword bared. Do you feel that at that moment everything will turn out alright?

Thank you, Nellie. I always repress the metaphor of "sinister" (yep, that's Latin for left, indeed, and "dexter" is right ... dextrous, dontcha know) because of being left-handed. I bow to superior logic.

Going back to the ring "He was smiling, and there seemed to be little wrong with him. But to the wizard's eye there was a faint change, just a hint as it were of transparency, about him, and especially about the left hand that lay outside upon the coverlet." (pg. 217) and Sam knocks at the door and runs to Frodo and takes his left hand and strokes it gently blushes and turns away hastily. Sam says "It's warm (talking about his hand) and it has felt so cold through the long nights."

I like what Gandalf says to Frodo (pg. 216) about the Ring. "For your heart was not touched, and only your shoulder was pierced; and that was because you resisted to the last. But it was a terribly narrow shave, so to speak. You were in gravest peril while you wore the Ring, for then you were half in the wraith-world yourself, and they might have seized you. You could see them, and they could see you."

I've got a couple of thoughts that are running through my mind and if you don't mind I'm going back a little bit (pg. 190) to make a point. I feel that by Frodo putting on the Ring not only allowed him to see the Black Riders and being in the wraith-world but saved his friends. Of course the Riders were after Frodo (he was wearing the Ring). "At length he gathered from Sam that they had seen nothing but the vague shadowy shapes coming towards them. Suddendly to his horror Sam found that his master had vanished; and at that moment a black shadow rushed past him, and he fell....They saw nothing more, until they stumbled over the body of Frodo." (pg. 193) Remember the temptation he had about putting on the Ring "Not with the hope of escape, or of doing anything, either good or bad: he simply felt that he must take the Ring and put it on his finger."

Nellie: I like what you said about left associated with evil. When I first read the scene that you described above I didn't know what would happen but wondered what the horse would do (white). Glorindel said "But you need not fear: my horse will not let any rider fall that I command him to bear. His pace is light and smooth; and if danger presses too near, he will bear you away with a speed that even the black steeds of the enemy cannot rival."

I reread that last night. It is such a wonderful thing the Frodo did. To sacrifice himself for his friends. He is a true friend, in every sense of the word. It reminded me of a mother and her children.. she will do anything to save them.

I am way ahead (I thought I was behind so hurried!). But now I can go back and enjoy it again.

FancyLou: I agree with you too! He really did sacrifice himself for his friends. A Bible verse just hit me John l5:l3 "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."

(I hope I'm not posting too much)

We begin a new section and this week we will be discussion the following chapters:

Many Meetings
The Council of Elrond
The Ring Goes South
A Journey in the Dark
The Bridge of Khazad-dum
Lothlorien

Notice that I changed the schedule just a bit. Instead of doing a total of 8 chapters this week, I changed it to a more managable 6 chapters; and then the last three chapters we will try to get in before the holidays begin.

Sasha, yes dexter is right and from it we have dexterity and dextrous. Yet we don't associate dexterity with good like sinister is associated with evil. But I love the way Tolkien plays up the battle between good (Frodo) and evil (Black Riders) in the use of the right and left hands of Frodo.

Brumie, you are not posting too much! You can post as much as you like. I like to read your posts.

That little scene where Sam strokes Frodo's left hand, sure shows us Sam's love for Frodo. And Frodo's heart was not touched -not touched by what, I asked myself; and the answer is: his heart was not touched by the evil morgul-knife and also his heart was not touched by the Ring because he fought against both the Black Rider who wanted to stab him in the heart and he fought against the influence of the Ring and was able to remove it.

FrancyLou, Frodo was willing to sacrifice himself for his friends, and I think that was the reason he was able to overcome the influence of the Ring and take it off again. Both good and evil were at work when Frodo felt that strong desire to put on the Ring: the Black Riders were willing Frodo to put on the Ring, and yet the reason for Which Frodo puts on the Ring is good because doing so saves his friends from certain death.

Lots of good stuff coming up including the Council of Elrond in which they decide what to do with the Ring.

Did anyone happen to see the PBS show this week about Tolkien? Dame Judy Dench narrated, and most of the show contained interviews with the Tolkien children, and professors of literature. I just happened to stumble upon in while channel surfing. It is excellent, so be on the lookout for it. Everyone tried to explain how he thought and about his disdain for his critics. He seemed to be a lovely man, completely engaged with life and his family.

he puts on the ring of power, but uses it to help him take responsibility. That's my lead-in to the Council of Elrond: where the good of heart decide on responsible action. And, the part I love best, where the non-hobbit characters individuate themselves.

Thanks, Nellie, for the schedule adjustment. Kind of a busy week.

BabsNH, no I missed that show on PBS. But our Canadian version of the Discovery Channel will be showing Tolkien related programming on @discovery.ca starting tomorrow, continuing on Tuesday and then on Wednesday -I'll be watching all the shows and making notes.

Sasha, I like meeting the non-hobbit characters and perhaps we could look at each one individually?

I'm somewhat busy tonight and don't have much time, so I'll return tomorrow for more discussion. But I leave you with a link to some important information about a virus hoax:

Symantec sulfnbk.exe hoax warning

Another TV alert: 9 pm Tuesday, some PBS channels are doing an hour on Tolkien.

I thought it might be interesting to find different points of views about Tolkien as a writer. So I did an online search. I found the following at:
http://www.licentiaten.umea.hsb.se/lgh55/Murgronan/critique/aringisborn.htm
=================================================
In January 1956, Mark Roberts wrote [about LOTR]:
"One cannot very well talk about the style of the book, for the style changes so constantly and so radically... The trouble is, however, that these changes of style, though well-intentioned, are managed in a way that is hopelessly mechanical. ...Lacking a serious controlling principle, the work sprawls."

In April the same year in The Nation, Edmund Wilson decides to straighten things out as far as LOTR is concerned. He begins by mentioning that LOTR, as opposed to the children's book The Hobbit, is intended for adult readers. This he cannot understand and is perplexed by all the recognised reviewers giving it so many compliments.
[Wilson writes]:
"There are... some details that are a little unpleasant for a children's book, but except when he is being pedantic and also boring the adult reader, there is little in The Lord of the Rings over the head of a seven-year-old child. It is essentially a children's book... which has somehow grown out of hand...

Wilson is on no level impressed with Dr. Tolkien. He notes that: "Prose and verse are on the same level of professorial amateurishness. There are streaks of imagination...But even these are rather clumsily handled."

Wilson concludes with the observation that those who appreciate LOTR are people who "have a lifelong appetite for juvenile trash".

Many years later, Tolkien is still topical. In 1977 Peter Conrad's12 view is that:
"Tolkien is, as Cliff Richard said of Elvis, 'a phenomena'. He is interesting not as an artist but as a serendipitous success. Para-scholarship... camouflages Tolkien's imaginative deficiencies, for although he can invent languages at will... he can't actually write."

Conrad also fails to understand why Tolkien has achieved so much success. He suggests therefore that Tolkien might fulfil a certain need for escapism. However, this is exactly what Tolkien is not doing:
"... the context is epic, but the spirit is bureaucratic...Tolkien pleases not because he is arcane and outlandish but because he is an unadventurous defender of mediocrity. Middle-Earth is a suburb; its hobbits are Babbits, homespun, humdrum shopkeepers, lineal descendants of Christina Rossetti's mercantile goblins and Beatrix Potter's tweedy bunnies. ... He is, in a word, kitsch."
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I too find that the story "sprawls". Therefore, I often find it boring. However, I keep reading to find the parts that enchant.

Rita

Another humorous scene - the nine had climbed to the knees of the great mountain and reached the top when Frodo felt something soft touch his face - white flakes of snow! The snow had gotten worse - deep! "Only a few paces from the ashes of their fire the snow lay many feet deep, higher than the heads of the hobbits; in places it had been scooped and piled by the wind into great drifts against the cliff. 'If Gandalf would go before us with a bright flame, he might melt a path for you' said Legolas....'If elves could fly over mountains, they might fetch the Sun to save us,' answered Gandalf...'Well,' said Boromir, 'when heads are at a loss bodies must serve, as we say in my country. The strongest of us must seek a way. See! Though all is now snow-clad, our path, as came up, turned about that shoulder of rock down yonder. It was there that the snow first began to burden us. If we could reach that point, maybe it would prove easier beyond. It is no more than a furlong off, I guess.'...'Then let us force a path thither, you and I!' said Aragorn...Aragorn was the tallest of the Company, but Boromir, little less in height, was broader and heavier in build. He led the way, and Aragorn followed him. Slowly they moved off, and were soon toiling heavily. In places the snow was breast-high, and often Boromir seemed to be swimming or burrowing with his great arms rather than walking. Legolas watched them for a while with a smile upon his lips, and then he turned to the others. 'The strongest must seek a way, say you? But I say: let a ploughman plough, but choose an otter for swimming, and for running light over grass and leaf, or over snow - an Elf.." I can see them moving in this scene. As a child I remember snow way above my knees and the fun I had walking and then trying to run!

Rita, thanks for that interesting piece on the views of critics who do not see LOTR as a great or even a good story. I don't think that I necessarily agree with what they say. Yes it is a very long and sprawling story -it spans a total of three books and doesn't end there. More of the story is told in The Silmarillion. I don't see the style changing constantly -but I'm not one who easily recognizes the style of writing in a book.

I wonder, as do others, if people who go to the movie will be willing to read the trilogy?

Brumie, that information from Tolkien himself fits right in with what I was going to say. I think that Tolkien wrote first and foremost for himself -and he says so himself- and that he would have been quite happy if no one else had shown any interest in it.

Maybe it is in the nature of fantasy and science fiction writers to write sprawling stories; there are series that are ten or more books long and still going.

I would like to discuss more on Tolkien and his critics and supporters after we have discussed the whole of the trilogy because then we will have a better overview of the whole story.

Now back to the book and the Council of Elrond.

When Frodo and Bilbo are brought into the council by Gandalf we see the dwarves and elves sitting together, but the two human men, Aragorn (Strider) and Boromir sit apart. Do you think there is any significance in that?

And what is your first impression of Boromir based on his description on page 253?

I'm full of questions tonight So one more: what do you think of characters like Elrond being almost immortal? He tells the history of the Ring from personal memory and that adds to the veracity of the tale he tells imo.

And the deciding moment of this book and of the whole story:

No one answered. The noon-bell rang. Still no one spoke. Frodo glanced at all the faces, but they were not turned to him. All the Council sat with downcast eyes, as if in deep thought. A great dread fell on him, as if he was awaiting the pronouncement of some doom that he had long foreseen and vainly hoped might after all never be spoken. An overwhelming longing to rest and remain in peace by Bilbo's side in Rivendell filled all his heart. At last with an effort he spoke, and wondered to hear his own voice, as if some other will was using his small voice. 'I will take the Ring,'he said,'though I do not know the way.'

Rita, I would like to hear which parts you think are enchanting and which parts you find boring. Thank you for being here.

Brumie, thank you for being here also!

Well tomorrow I'll be seeing the movie...can't wait!!

I have read this book so many times that I find it hard to bring any fresh insight to it.

The critics are somewhat laughable; who will remember them, while LOTR has become the foundation of a whole new class of books, perhaps even of literature. I have truly never understood the use of critics; it is difficult to create, but easy to tear up another's creation.

Does anyone else feel that Frodo was forced into being the ringbearer? Except for the other hobbits, he is the weakest and least able of the beings called to the Council. Is it his very weakness that forces him to become the ringbearer? Any person of power (like Gandalf or the Elves) is too much endangered by the temptation to wield the power of the ring.

Well I will just write as I don't think I can answer the questions in order.

I really like Glorindel - I don't know why. He just hit a "note" with me. I was disappointed he did not continue on with Frodo and company.

I never trusted Borimir - and kept wondering "where" he came from. I was kind of like Sam when it came to Strider - and would never have guessed he was from royalty. Now I see Strider as a strong leader.

I think Frodo is the only one who can keep the ring. He does not need power so the ring is not so drawing for him. Frodo is as a child he is just happy to be. Its seems that all of the hobbits are not drawn to the ring, it is Frodo they are drawn to. And Strider, Gandalf and the others are protecting the hobbits in their journey - like adults protect children.

I do struggle with the pictures Tolkien draws - but it will be wonderful for the film.

For a wonderful movie review of LOTR, as well as a helpful plot summary, go to: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/19/movies/19RING.html?todaysheadlines

This is the New York Times' movie review of the film: "Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring". The title of the NY Times article is: "A Heroic Quest Through Middle-Earth".

I can't wait to see this movie. I can imagine what a huge task it was to edit the book into a movie. The article states: "Mr. Jackson has simmered the novel down to the most compact action-epic that could be made of it."

Though some aficionados may not enjoy a "simmered-down" version of the story, I welcome it. I suspect that many other readers do too, although they may not be brave enough to admit it here.

There are some interesting comments about the book at the alt.literature newsgroup. The following is a sample:
==============================================
Marc,
Thank you for your comments on LOTR.
I especially appreciated your words: "The depth of the world [Tolkien created in LOTR] can cause confusion as the references to certain characters and places can seem obscure..."

I agree with you there. I think the problem is that Tolkien spilled out too many names to which he gave no memorable attributes. This is a shortcoming of the book, IMO. I don't see "depth" here. I see only confusion and obscurity which are mistaken for depth.
======================================================


There are other interesting comments at the newsgroup. Those who who are interested can go to:
http://groups.google.com/
In the search box, enter the name of the newsgroup: alt.literature
Look for the topic entitled: "The Lord of the Rings".

Rita

In his news article today, Adrian Mccoy, staff writer for the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, gives us an other LOTR web to visit. This web is stocked with all kinds of goodies: Screen Savers, Games, etc. If you care to read it here is the link Tolkien

Bill H

Hello everyone! I'm rushing through today and have only one thing to say: go and see the movie!!! It captures the essence of The Fellowship of the Ring perfectly in my opinion. It is 3 hours long but when the movie was over it was like I had only been there for 5 minutes.

I'll be back in the morning with comments on the thoughts you have all presented and meanwhile shall have a look at those two links -thank you Rita and Bill for providing them.

Nellie,

I am so glad to see your opinion of the movie, I can't wait to see it myself!

I saw the movie yesterday, and have strong opinions; we really ought to have separate discussions for the movie and the book ... there are different aims, I think.

SWN, I think that rather than forcing Frodo to be the ring-bearer, the Council members were expecting one of their own, cast in the hero-mold, to pick up the gauntlet, and were non=plussed that "the little guy" was the only one to see past the difficulty to the necessity.

The wind and the sirens have kicked up here: I look forward to dawn.

Sasha: I was wondering how different the themes (aim) were to your own (everyone in discussion).

I found a sentence that has spoken to me:

(pg. 239) Boromir is telling the council about his dream. "In that dream I thought the eastern sky grew dark and there was a growing thunder, but in the West a pale light lingered..." This makes me feel that no matter how big the crisis is there is hope.

Going back to the dream because something hit me! "Seek for the Sword that was broken: In Imladris it dwells; There shall be counsels taken Stronger than Morgul-spells. There shall be shown a token That Doom is near at hand, For Isildur's Bane shall waken, And the Halfling forth shall stand."

Then Aragron says "And here in the house of Elrond more shall be made clear to you" he then cast his sword on the table and stood before Elrond and the blade was in two pieces. He says "Here is the Sword that was broken." Boromir then says "And who are you, and what have you to do with Minas Tirith?" Elrond says "He is Aragorn son of Arathorn and he is descended through many fathers from Isildur Elendil's son of Minas Ithil...." Aragron also says "I am but the heir of Isildur, not Isildur himself." (pg. 240)

it could have been a wonderful scene in the movie.

I keep forgetting to encourage you all to look for the PBS hour on Tolkien if it's shown where you are. From 1992 (Tolkien's centenary), it has Judi Dench narrating and reading some passages. And the summary at the end, from the professor who now holds the seat Tolkien held at Leeds, is that Tolkien changed the definition of fantasy. I thought of all of you as I agreed with that, I understood that those who are tired by LOTR ("please; no more fairies") are those who simply prefer the older, lighter kind of fantasy. Am I oversimplifying again?

I enjoy reading Tolkien because of his command of the English language and because he masterfully creates a whole different world with complex cultural relationships. I get the feeling that he merely starts writing and the story takes over, eventually writing itself.

Many critics don't like his wordiness and long descriptive passages. But I do. His prose is often pure poetry. After all, Tolkien was a product of his time, and his way of story-telling is typical of the complexity of the books he grew up with. Of course, people who read older books will probably appreciate the style more, since the books simply do not race forward, but draw you deeply into the other world. It was desirable in 19th century literature to keep the reader for a longer time. After all, those readers had no TV and movies for entertainment. Our attention span is certainly shorter than it used to be.

Many modern readers seem to want to get a book over with. I like stories I can wallow in, savour, relish. Stories that take time and mental effort, and yes, sometimes require the use of a dictionary.

One thing I don't like about LOTR is naming so many characters who don't really have a significant role in the story. And I find using two or more names for people and places is confusing - even if realistic, given the cultural differences of the characters.

Still, when I'm tired I still skim over some of the repetitions and longer 'historical' references. Reader's privilege.

It's interesting how we each bring to and take out of the story according to our own set perspective. This, of course, changes the story for each of us. Hence the beauty of this sharing of insights.

Sasha: Never did find anything on PBS in my location (this week). Sheilak: Appreciate your post.

I agree with Brumie: that was well reasoned and well written, and Readers' Privilege is why we're here!

Brumie, don't give up. It may get tucked into a PBS nook or cranny soon. That hour reminded me, too, that Tolkien and Christopher Fry were both writing works of verbal genius at the same time.

SWN, I'm thinking about your question about Frodo's weakness 'forcing' him to become the Ring bearer. I think he was the obvious one to step forwards and make the offer to take the Ring to Mordor because of his strength. I think that he can withstand the power of the ring better and longer than any of the others at the Council because of weakness, but that very weakness is his strength.

Sasha, Tolkien did change the meaning of fantasy. Or perhaps he took it back to what it once was?

Brumie, Boromir's dream was very prophetic. I've noticed that characters in this story often seem to have prophetic dreams or dreams that show things that are happening somewhere else.

Sheila, thank you for a great post! We do all get something different out of the story and read it in varied ways -reader's priviledge: I definitely agree with that.

Here I present the Fellowship of the Ring: nine strong: four hobbits, two men, one wizard, one elf, and one dwarf. Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pippin, Aragorn, Boromir, Gandalf, Legolas, and Gimli. Three we know very little about as yet: Boromir, Legolas, Gimli. Can we trust them? Something I tend to do as a reader is to imagine myself actually meeting a character or characters for the first time and then thinking how I would react to them.

I love the song Bilbo sings on page 291 and 292. Specially this one verse:

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood in every spring
there is a different green

Boromir plowing through the big snowdrift. That brought back memories of doing the same when I was young. Are there things in this book which bring back your childhood or other memories?

Now we come to one of the more exciting parts of the book -in my opinion at least- the journey through the dark Mines of Moria and the final dash across the Bridge of Khazad-dum. I keep rereading as I go through this discussion and right now have left the members of the fellowship by the mithril door with Gandalf trying to guess the password...but I shall wait until tomorrow to go on!

I saw a review of the movie version of LOTR on AOL; the comment was made that what LOTR and the sequels are really is power. It was like a light coming on in my head; I have read the books so long for the adventure and "fairy tale" (from a child's point of view) that I don't think I had ever really looked at them from an adult point of view before. Indeed, this is as much about power as "All the King's Men".

The journey through the Mines of Moria is one of the darkest parts of the book. The despair of the company when the Balrog takes Gandalf throws heavy doubt on the outcome of the mission. Gandalf was their greatest power figure. Gimli proves his mettle and courage by getting them out of the mine.

Tolkien follows this by the idyll in Lothlorien which gives us a rest (mostly) from evil. I think Tolkien's style does change according to the content of his writing.

Brumie, I very much like those bits from Tolkien's letters that you share with us; it gives me and us all a good insight on Tolkien's own thoughts about his creations.

I was in the book store to buy a new copy of the trilogy and discovered that Tolkien's son Christopher put together a twelve book History of Middle Earth based on Tolkien's notes. That is utterly mind-boggling to me. When I think of how rich and detailed the trilogy is and then to think that there was all this material invented by the same mind just for use as background material. I am going to start collecting the books in this imaginary history.

SWN, yes this story is about 'power' and about how beings are destroyed or brought low by their desire for it.

One of my favourite bits:

The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came down from its nostrils. But Gandalf stood firm. ...The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly onto the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen,glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm.

Now we come to the peace of Lothlorien and the Elf Queen Galadriel and work our way to the end of the book.

I know that we are all busy with our holiday plans and our families in this Christmas season, so I won't be expecting too much posting. But we can refer to things in this first book whenever we wish when we go on with The Two Towers because the trilogy was really meant to be one book -at least it works much better as a single book with three parts.

SWN in Tenn: I too am reading these books with an increasing realization that the theme is power and it's misuse. As Gandalf realizes, the use of power is always misuse, as in power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. One poster said we all carry the ring--thank you for that--it really got me thinking. If we use our power to manipulate people and events to make the world the way we think it should be, is that misuse? In the end it probably is. Obviously my thoughts are unclear here, but I'm working on it.

Hmmm, that thread of the use of power being always misuse is good. I think that was the premise of "Candide." Or was Tolkien trying to redefine power, to say that real power is that which is used for good?

What do y'all make of the mirror of Galadriel? Just another dream sequence?

Elizabeth, it is interesting to think of the power theme that runs through this story. On page 381 Frodo offers Galadriel the Ring and she reveals that she thought of asking for it and has long planned what she would do when she had it. She would use the power of the Ring for good. But does power used for good purposes remain that way?

On this same subject, more or less: I am reading a rather good companion book to The Lord of the Rings called Meditations on Middle-Earth and in one of the essays it is mentioned that Frodo tests people with the Ring by offering it to them. I thought that an interesting observation and a true one. What I also find of interest is that he tests those who already have power of their own. He offers the Ring to Gandalf, to Aragorn, and to Galadriel, each of whom has their own power: Gandalf is a powerful wizard; Aragorn is the king of a large and powerful country although he is in exile by his own choice; and Galadriel is an Elf queen with a Ring of power of her own.

Then we have Boromir, who is not offered the Ring, but tries to take it from Frodo by force. He is a strong man whose father is the virtual ruler of Gondor -of which Aragorn is the king. Why is Boromir not offered the Ring?

I wish you all a merry yuletide season and happiness in the New Year!

Sasha, you were posting at the same time as me. Is Galadriel's Mirror another dream sequence?

Let me think on that until tomorrow...

Percieved shotcomings fall on evevrybody. Perserverance is the key. As in life.

I find The Mirror of Galadriel to be a very interesting chapter. Since Nellie read Meditators on Middle Earth - Frodo tests people with the Ring by offering it to them - never thought about that.

"..I will give you the One Ring, if you ask for it. It is too great a matter for me." Galadriel laughs and says "Wise the Lady Galadriel may be, yet here she has met her match in courtsey. Gently are you revenged for my testing of your heart at our first meeting. You begin to see with a keen eye. I do not deny that my heart has greatly desired to ask what you offer. For many long years I had pondered what I might do, should the Great Ring come into my hands, and behold! it was brought within my grasp. The evil that was devised long ago works on in many ways, whether Sauron himself stands of falls. Would not that have been a noble deed to set to the credit of his Ring, if I had taken it by force or fear from my guest?

"And now at last it comes. You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible at the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!

"She lifted up her hand and from the ring that she wore there issued a great light that illumined her alone and left all else dark. She stood before Frodo seeming now tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful. Then she let her hand fall, and the light faded, and suddenly she laughed again, and lo! she was shrunken: a slender elf-woman, clad in simple white, whose gentle voice was soft and sad.

"I pass the test...I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel." (pg. 356)

In Letters (Carpenter, 332) I found "Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve."

Then I'm wondering why Frodo tempted Gandalf, Aragorn, and Galadriel? Is it the ring?

P.S. I also want to read as much as I can about Tolkien and his stories.

I can't think Frodo was deliberately testing Aragorn or Galadriel. I believe his feelings were "Surely somebody, especially a person of power, is better able to do this than I am." Frodo has no power of his own, except the simple power of goodness, and he is not able to wield the immense power of the ring; Aragorn or Galadriel could. I think the point is that the ring is intrinsicaly evil, and will corrupt anyone who attempts to use it. Both Aragorn and Galadriel recognize this; Boromir hasn't got a clue. Somewhere in one of the books is the statement that the ring gives power according to the statue of the user, which is why things turned out so badly for Gollum. I wonder if Tolkien meant to imply that supreme power is in itself evil. Galadriel's limited power is not nearly so dangerous. When we consider that LOTR was written in the days of the Third Reich and Stalin's empire, perhaps he does mean that.

SWN, I agree.

Never thought about Frodo testing Gandalf et al. I think he was offering the ring out of humility. He knew he was not powerful or wise or highly intelligent. He knew he was dealing with things beyond his grasp. He was filled with fear, therefore his actions were taken with courage. He tried to give the ring, the task, to those he thought superior to himself, more capable of success. He did not offer it to those like himself, because he didn't want to endanger them.

To me Frodo represents Everyman. Simple, courageous in the face of fear, confused but willing to walk in blind trust, willing to let his friends help him on the great adventure, aware of temptation and occasionally giving in to it. But Frodo doesn't value power so much as friendship.

Those 'great' persons who are powerful in their own right seem to be the ones most tempted by power, and most aware of the strength of their temptation. Galadriel says she passed the test when she recognized that she must fade away in order to be true to her better self.

Good post SHEILA.

Along with Brumie, I say "great post Sheila."

And furthermore, everyone's post is great. The two chapters: Lothlorien, and The Mirror of Galadriel are very interesting ones in that they reveal more of all the characters to us.

I love the bit on page 371 where Galadriel speaks the dwarvish names for the place where Gandalf fell into shadow and Gimli finds that he

looked suddenly into the heart of an enemy and saw there love and understanding.

And when Galadriel looks each of them in the eyes for a long time, they all seem to feel that she is offering them something that they greatly desired:

All of them, it seemed, had fared alike: each had felt that he was offered a choice between a shadow full of fear that lay ahead, and something that he greatly desired: clear before his mind it lay, and to get it he had only to turn aside from the road and leave the Quest and the war against Sauron to others.

I don't think that Frodo was testing anyone by offering them the Ring. But when you think of how hard it is to give the Ring up, I ask myself -Why does Frodo offer it at all? Yes it could be because he believes that those more powerful might be better able to carry out the task he has taken upon himself. But is that all? Is it perhaps the Ring itself that is attracted to power and that it somehow influences Frodo to offer it to those who are powerful in the way that the Ring recognizes power?

Something you said Sheila has made me think: "Frodo doesn't value power but friendship." I was thinking just now that Frodo does have power and it lies in him valuing friendship and having the courage to set out to do what seems impossible. What do you think about this?

I've been thinking how much trouble we're all having with the definitions of "power" in these books, and suddenly slapped my head: that's exactly Tolkien's point. Power is the ability to do/have WHATEVER the individual wants: for some it's control of the whole of Middle Earth and all its inhabitants, for some it's "make our garden grow." And it looks bad for Frodo right now; the fellowship, which I agree is most important to him, is disintegrating. (This is like reading a whole new book, and I have you all to thank.)

I agree with you all about Frodo.

Power is the ability to control others, so achieving one's own ends. Sauron has enormous power, directed toward evil; Galadriel's power is directed toward good, as is that of Gandalf. Sauruman the white is seduced into evil by the promise of additional power. Is humankind so different? Some of us are more like Bilbo, only desiring to be comfortable and in charge of our own lives. Others are not happy unless they are controling others, even if the others are only their spouses or children ...or employees. It is tempting to see Osama bin Ladin in the role, perhaps not of Sauron, but that of Saruman.

This is fascinating. SWN, That's a good definition of power; expanding on it, evil then stems from the motivation: the DESIRE to control others (as an end in itself). The most powerful person I know uses it to empower other people; is Frodo that kind of person? He knows, I think, that the power in the ring is a power for evil, but maybe he offers it in hopes that one of the "strong" forces can transmute it to good. Gandalf, rejecting the ring, told him that wouldn't be the result, but nevertheless he offers it at least twice more. Think of the people he DIDN't offer it to, Bilbo especially.

What kept Frodo heading toward Mordor when the fellowship disintegrated?

Sasha, you ask what keeps Frodo going towards Mordor after the Fellowship has disintergated. Perhaps this bit from page 294 can shed light on it:

At that moment Elrond came out with Gandalf, and he called the Company to him. "This is my last word," he said in a low voice. 'The Ring-Bearer is setting out on the Quest of Mount Doom. On him alone is any charge laid: neither to cast away the Ring, nor to deliver it to any servant of the Enemy nor indeed to let any handle it, save members of the Company and the Council, and only then in gravest need. The others go with him as free companions, to help him on his way. You may tarry, or come back, or turn aside into other paths, as chance allows. The further you go, the less easy it will be to withdraw; yet no oath or bond is laid on you to go further than you will. For you do not yet know the strength of your hearts, and you cannot foresee what each may meet upon the road.'

From that I would say that only Frodo is on the quest to Mount Doom and all the others are there to be with him as long as they can.

Would Frodo have been better off if the whole Company had followed him to Mordor?

SWN, interesting thoughts on applying what happens in the story regarding power to our own times.

I was going to say more last evening but dinner was ready and like a hobbit I do not like to forego a meal if I can help it LOL!

I am thinking that this story is not only about power but it is also about duty. And it is mostly about voluntary duty -if there can be such a thing? Frodo has taken on the duty of taking the Ring to Mordor and of throwing it into Mount Doom so that it will be destroyed forever. His is the hero's task, the hero's duty and he cannot turn aside from it as long as he draws breath. Sam is both Frodo's friend and his servant, and as a servant it is his duty to stay by his master's side; but he is also a friend and hence also takes on the voluntary duty that friendship asks for.

Do the other members of the Company have a duty to Frodo?

Now a thought or two or three on Galadriel's Mirror. Only Frodo and Sam are taken by Galadriel to look in the Mirror. Do you think that she sensed that they would be the only ones to go to Mordor? When Sam looks in the Mirror and sees the vision of the old Gaffer being turned out of Bagshot Row, he wants to go home; but persuades himself that he will only go home by the long road. For a moment Sam was drawn away from the Quest by love for family.

Frodo sees visions of a wizard, but he does not know if it is Gandalf or Saruman; and he sees a ship with dark sails; and he sees the Eye of Sauron which draws both him and the Ring down towards the surface of the water in the bowl. Galadriel tells him not to touch the water. I wonder what would have happened if Frodo had touched the water?

The time comes for the Company to say farewell to Lothlorien and to travel on.

I have to leave my computer until February 1st, but I will keep reading--just starting on The Two Towers. Have a wonderful New Year everyone.

Tolkein is such a wonderful read. I have read and reread his works seemingly forever, and never tire of them. I'm new to this site, and am looking forward to participating in your discussions. Glad to be aboard. Bad Dad, Florida

Bad Dad, welcome! We love to have new insite. Please give us yours.

Thanks to you, FrancyLou, for your kind welcome. I'm looking forward to the Jan. start of the discussion of the next book in the trilogy. To my way of thinking, Tolkien conjured up an entire universe of beings, caused them to interact, invented the languages, poetry, geography, and physical characteristics to be found, and wove an epic morality story for us all to enjoy. An incredible imagination and a consummate storyteller. In case you thought I didn't like the trilogy. It'll be fun to discuss Tolkien and other authors.

Nellie: Appreciate both of your post especially #230. I have finished Fellowship and started The Two Towers and I find Elrond's words to be so true. (l) Frodo the Ring-bearer (2) On him alone is any charge laid (3) The others who go with him as free companions, to help him on the way. It all boils down to "its you choice," "free to choose."

Nellie, the charge was laid on Frodo alone. I think I should have framed my question to ask why Frodo doesn't turn away from the duty he accepted at Lorien. I'm trying not to take for granted that Frodo will live up to the charges laid on him, you see, but explore how he is or becomes the hobbit he is.

Bad Dad, welcome. You're just in time to slip into Elizabeth N's chair. Hope I'm in time to say we'll miss you, Elizabeth.

Hurry back Elizabeth. Welcome Bad Dad.

Elizabeth, I hope that you have a good time away from your computer. Do come back and join us for the last book of the trilogy which will begin on the day you return.

Bad Dad, welcome to the discussion! Do you have any thoughts on The Fellowship of the Ring, which we are just about finished with?

Brumie, thanks. I was thinking this story is also about making choices: first Bilbo has to make the choice to give the Ring to Frodo; then Frodo has to make the choice to take the Ring to Mordor; and also to make the choice to go to Mordor alone; Sam has to choose between obeying Aragorn or going with his heart and following Frodo; Aragorn too has a choice to make, but we are not that far yet.

Sasha, I like your idea of exploring Frodo's character as we go along. There is lots yet to learn about him -and about all the characters-as we are not told everything about how he will react to the things that are happening.

Their journey down the Great River: I find there is a certain sense of peace as they boat down the River. First there is the farewell ceremony by the river's edge in which Galadriel gives gifts to them all. Aragorn receives a sheath for Anduril and a brooch in the form of an eagle set with a clear green stone. Boromir is given a belt of gold, and Pippin and Merry are given belts of silver. To Legolas she gives a bow such as the Galadhrim use. To Sam she bestows a small box with earth from her orchard. Gimli is asked what he would have and he courteously asks for a single strand of her hair -she gives him three. Finally Frodo is given a small vial filled with the light from Earandil's star.

These gifts will be of use in the future I'm sure.

Must go now. Be back tomorrow with more thoughts.

Thanks for all the kind welcomes. My take on Frodo is that he is serious, dependable, trustworthy, and cautious. He would lay down his own life to fulfill the charge laid on him, but he has serious misgivings about risking the lives of his companions along the way.I like his steadfastness in the face of danger. He is very much afraid, but he pushes on. Those are desirable attributes for anyone - Hobbit or human. Can't wait to start on the Two Towers. Bad Dad. Florida.

Bad Dad, it is interesting that both Frodo and Sam are dependable, sober, and trustworthy and that Merry and Pippin tend to be more playful, but are in their own way trustworthy.

Here is an nice quote from the following article -link to follow:

The Lord of the Rings celebrates endurance. Nothing is easy in Middle Earth. Every protagonist is tested and tempted throughout the story. Even those who pass the tests suffer and are changed by their ordeals.

From Lord of the Rings article in Profit Magazine

What are your thoughts on the quote based on what we have read so far?

I overlooked something that Nellie brought out in her post #225 but at that time didn't pay too much attention. It speaks about Galadriel's test/temptation she made to the Company. She test them by saying "Your request stands upon the edge of a knife. Stray but a little and it will fail, to the ruin of all..." With that she held them with her eyes and in silence searched each one in turn. Legolos and Aragorn could not look long and Sam blushed! Later Pipin asked Sam why he blushed or could it be he had a guilty conscience and he hoped it was nothing worse than a wicked plot to steal his blanket! Sam said no but felt like "I hadn't got nothing on, and didn't like it. She seemed to be looking inside me and asking me what I would do if she gave me the chance of flying back home to the Shire to a nice little hole with - with a bit of garden of my own." Merry felt the same but he doesn't think he'll say anymore. So Galadriel tested them with fear and something that is greatly desired. (pg. 348-349)

Another place I like remember when Frodo offers Galadriel the ring? She says "Gently are you revenged for my testing of your heart at our first meeting." (pg. 356)

There is another place (not in reference to the others) that made me stop and think. "For if you fail, then we are laid bare to the Enemy. Yet if you succeed, then our power is diminished and Lothlorien will fade, at the tides of Time will sweep it away. We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten." (pg. 356) Then Galadriel tells Frodo "For the fate of Lothlorien you are not answerable, but only for the doing of your own task. Yet I could wish, were it of any avail, that the One Ring had never been wrought, or had remained for ever lost." This makes me feel that everything would be okay for Galadriel and the Elves had the One Ring never been found. So now that the Ring has been found, it must be destroyed and that means their power is diminished and Lothlorien will fade. It all started with Gollum and then Bilbo.

Brumie, you have presented some good thoughts. Galadriel wishes that the One Ring had never been made. I wonder if there was ever a time when the Elves using the powers of their own rings could have prevented the making of the One Ring? And there is always the question as to why Isildur did not destroy the Ring after Sauron had been defeated.

A lot is happening in these last chapters as the Company is in the process of breaking up. More on that in the morning when I can think better And I also want to say a bit about a character who has been with us all through the story, although he is rarely seen: Gollum.

Thank you, Nellie. I look forward to some comments on Gollum. Wish I had more time tonight.

Well I went to see the movie this morning. Beautiful scene's.... they did do a lot of editing - but helped to understand the book better. I sure would not take a child to see it though. I was even scared in some places, and I read the book, lol.

Gollum is a fascinating character. He seems to represent a type of person with total disregard for others. His obsession is the only thing that matters to him. He was apparently totally selfish right from the beginning, willing to murder his friend to get possession of a ring he didn't even know the importance of. As he persued his path of robbing and murdering, he lost his humanity (if human was his race to begin with). He lost his normal physical form as well as any ability to have normal relationships with any other creatures. I dare say today's medical experts would call him criminally insane.

The ring was created to find its way back to its creator. The easiest path to evil is through persons who already entertain evil in their hearts. The more an individual is willing to be led in that direction, the more power the ring has over the choices and actions of that person. So Gollum was a suitable guardian of the ring as the purposes of evil drew him through events back to its source.

Frodo was eventually the one destined to carry the ring back to Mordor for its destruction. The ring could be carried with relative safety only by someone who was innocent and humble. There was little within him that responded to the compulsion of the ring. Elrond said Frodo was the one destined to do the work of delivering the ring to its destruction. He was the unwitting representative of the Shire in the grand game. Each race of Middle Earth had its role to play according to the gifts natural to it. All their gifts and talents were needed together to achieve the purpose set before them.

It interests me that while evil is personified and presented almost as a spreading cancer, its opposition is not defined at all. 'Good' is undefined, amorphous, impersonal, yet generally pervasive and giving evidence of free will and a long range intent for a greater good for all.

Sheilak, very well said. Interesting thinking about trying to define good.

I saw the person who plays Frodo in the movie (can not think of his name right now) on a HBO interview (only the very end of it) his eyes is the way I realized it was him he looked so different. Sure seemed like a very nice person. I really did not see enough to make a real judgement of any kind. Of course really you would need to know a person to make a real judgement.

Good. "The easiest path to evil is through persons who already entertain evil in their hearts." I draw a parallel between Gollum's relationship to Sauron and, say, the relationship of the young Nazis to Hitler. (It would be easy to come up with a more timely instance ... la plus ça change ...) Your point that Gollum "was a suitable guardian" is also a big help; my recollection of Tolkien's early analysis of Gollum's possession of the ring was that it was pure coincidence. (too rushed to do good research) Now it seems that Tolkien was learning that his creation had a life beyond his first understanding, and that very little was coincidental, so Golllum had the ring because the ring needed itself safe. More proof that Middle Earth was "all of a piece." You note, too, that "good" is amorphous in character; it seems that Tolkien found total evil easy to personify, but good was parceled out among the hobbits, wizards, elves, men, and dwarves. And not much in the dwarves!

Not very much has been said about Boromir so I'll take a stab. "Boromir was beloved by his father, Denethor, was like him in face and pride, but in little else. He took no wife and delighting chiefly in arms; fearless and strong, but caring little for lore, save the tales of old battles (pg. 1031 - 1032)."

Boromir's desire to have the Ring, I believe, was to help his people -with good intention. The desire to help his people must have been very strong because Boromir said to Frodo "...It should be mine! Give it to me!" Frodo didn't answer but moved away until there was a great stone that stood between them. Then Boromir suddendly "sprang over the stone and leaped at Frodo. His fair and pleasant face was hideously changed; a raging fire was in his eyes." For Frodo there was only one thing to do "trembling he pulled out the Ring upon its chain and quickly slipped it on his finger, even as Boromir sprang at his again. The man gasped, stared for a moment amazed, and then ran wildly about, seeking here and there among the rocks and trees!" Then he falls by catching his foot on a stone "he fell sprawling and lay upon his face. For a while he was as still as if his own curse had struck him down; then suddendly he WEPT!" He gets up and wipes away his tears and says "What have I done? Frodo! Frodo! Come back!"

My thought: Boromir's want/desire for the Ring was so great (to help his people) that he was willing to fight for it. So much so that his facial appearance changed from a pleasant face to something hideous looking. The fall caused him to come to his senses and he knew how wrong he was.

One other thought on this is that Boromir causes Frodo to choose the way!

I've been thinking about Boromir for a couple of days.

SHEILA AND SASHA: Great post(s).

and yours isn't half bad. That passage about the raging fire in (Boromir's) eyes slows me down. Those who have seen the movie mmay know what I mean. What other instances of physical change do we know of? Brumie, I'm reading that the motivation for wanting the ring is never important; the ring wants to be possessed, and forces those who want it to do or say anything, so it can do its ill will. Remember how horrid Bilbo became?

I went back and read The Shadow of the Past chapter and studied Gollum.

Gollum's origin told by Gandalf to Frodo:

(l) Gollum's people lived by the banks of the Great River (2) They were a clever-handed and quiet-footed little people (3) They loved the river and swam in it (4) Gollum's grandmother was stern and wise in old lore

Gollum's personalty:

(l) Inquisitive and curious-minded (2) Name was Smeagol (3) He was interested in roots and beginnings (4) He dived into deep pools, he burrowed under trees and growing plants, he tunnelled into green mounds, he did not look up at the hill tops, leaves on a tree, or flowers opening in the air: his head and eyes were always downward.

Gollum's Ring:

(l) He was with a friend when the Ring was discovered (2) He wanted the Ring said it was his birthday. He killed for it. (3) Discovered that when he wore the Ring he was invisible (4) With this discovery he would make himself invisible so he could find out secrets and he put this knowledge to crooked and malicious uses. (5) He became sharp-eyed and keen-eared for all that was hurtful. The Ring had given him power according to his stature.

The penalty for using the Ring:

(l) He became very unpopular and was shunned by all the relations (when visible) (2) His grandmother expelled him from the family and turned him out of her hole. (3) He wandered in loneliness, weeping a little for the hardness of the world. (4) He finds a cave and vanished out of all knowledge.

Frodo cried "Gollum? Do you mean that this is the very Gollum creature Bilbo met?" Gandalf said "I think it is a sad story and it might have happened to others, even to some hobbits that I have known." Frodo could not believe that Gollum was connected with hobbits. Gandalf told him it is true about their origins. He said he knew more about hobbits than they do themselves. "And even Bilbo's story suggests the kinship. There was a great deal in the background of their minds and memories that was very similar. They understood one another remarkably well, very much better than a hobbit would understand....Think of the riddles they both knew, for one thing." Frodo says "And Hobbits don't cheat. Gollum meant to cheat all the time."

This is one part I like. Gandalf says" But there is something else in it, I think, which you don't see yet. Even Gollum was not wholly runied. He had proved tougher than even one of the Wise would have guessed - as a hobbit might. There was a little corner of his mind that was still his own, and light came through it, as through a chink in the dark: light out of the past. It was actually pleasant, I think, to hear a kindly voice again, bringing up memories of wind, and trees, and sun on the grass, and such forgotten things.

"But that, of course, would only make the evil part of him angrier in the end - unless it could be conquered. Unless it could be cured 'Gandalf sighed.' Alas! there is little hope of that for him. Yet not no hope. No, not though he possessed the Ring so long, almost as far back as he can remember. For it was long since he had worn it much: in the black darkness it was seldom needed. Certainly he had never 'faded'. He is thin and tough still. But the thing was eating up his mind, of course, and the torment had become almost unbearable." (pg. 5l - 54)

my point exactly: "the thing was eating up his mind, of course, and the torment had become almost unbearable." There's no doubt that in Gandalf's mind, at least, the ring has a will. I tend to see Gandalf as a truth-teller, for the purpose of the narrative, at least.

Sheila, Sasha, and Brumie, you have all made some great posts! Hello FrancyLou, the movie does catch the essence of this first book; at least I think it does. Now on to all the good things about Gollum and Boromir that have been said.

Gollum. Was he always evil? From what we know of him you would say so. But Gandalf said something that has stuck with me: that not even Sauron was evil in the beginning. That nothing is evil to begin with. Shall we look at what Gandalf tells Frodo about a hobbit-like being named Smeagol who becomes Gollum?

The most inquisitive and curious-minded of that family was called Smeagol. He was interested in roots and beginnings; he dived into deep pools; he burrowed under trees and growing plants; he tunnelled into green mounds; and he ceased to look up at the hill-tops, or the leaves on trees, or the flowers opening in the air: his head and his eyes were downwards.

I think that Smeagol/Gollum did not yet have evil in his heart at that point. He was strange. But one and be 'strange' and not be evil. He is a selfish sort and it is the sight of the Ring in his friend Deagol's hand that results in Smeagol/Gollum's first act that was evil: the murder of his friend. I think that the Ring affected Gollum in some mental way. Maybe it sensed the potential evil in his heart and brought it out?

Then Smeagol/Gollum finds out that no one can see him while he wears the Ring and he used his invisibility to find out secrets which he put to mean uses. So his whole family began to shun him and kick him and he would bite their feet. The Ring has made his life bad, hasn't it?

Eventually his grandmother throws him out of the family home; and he makes his way slowly to the Misty Mountains, where...

'So he journeyed by night up into the highlands, and he found a little cave out of which the dark stream ran; and he wormed his way like a magot into the heart of the hills, and vanished out of all knowledge. The Ring went into theshadows with him, and even the maker, when his power had begun to grow again, could learn nothing of it.'

Gollum is mentioned a number of times throughout the book but it is not until the Fellowship is in the Mines of Moria that we get glimpses of his presence.

Boromir. Interestingly I see him having something in common with Gollum in the way that the Ring drives him to that moment of madness in which he tries to take the Ring from Frodo by force. Yes, Boromir wants the Ring for a good purpose, but in a way his desire for the Ring is as selfish as that of Gollum was.

Tomorrow I'll look at the breaking of the Fellowship.

Sasha: (pg. 225) Bilbo ask Frodo if he had the Ring and he would like to take a peep at it. Frodo says "Yes, I've got it and looks just the same as it ever did." Slowly he drew it out and Bilbo put out his hand. "But Frodo quickly drew back the Ring. To his distress and amazement he found that he was no longer looking at Bilbo; a shadow seemed to have fallen between them and through it he himself eyeing a LITTLE WRINKLED CREATURE WITH A HUNGRY FACE AND BONY GRASPING HANDS. He felt a desire to strike him."

Good point about "the motivation for wanting the ring is never important; the ring wants to be possessed and forces those who want it to do or say anything, so it can do its ill will." In Boromir's case I first thought the ring wanted (is) to possess him too, but I also saw another angle. I still believe he had good intention. Maybe that fall "knocked some sense" into him WOKE HIM UP!!

Yeah, Brumie, a whole new angle! When the ring (power?) evades you, do you become better/stronger?

Brumie and Sasha, your comments on the role of intention are interesting. Hadn't even thought of it. It reminds me of the old saw, 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions.' Perhaps the important thing is the method we choose to attain them.

There seems to be an understanding expressed by both Gandalf and Galadriel that there can be no shortcuts in persuing great good. If good must be freely chosen and worked for step by step, perhaps the real power of the ring is to rob people of their free will by promising them a way to achieve a perceived good without the work. Hmmmmm.

Somehow this helps me understand a little better how the tyrants of the world come into being. One shortcut to an intended good is to rob others of the exercise of their free will.

???

Just thought I'd pop in to see how the discussion is going. A comment: "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Many of those who started out as "liberators" wound up as dictators. The ring possesses "absolute" power.

I'm re-reading the books for the 4th time, at this point they are entering Moria. It has been some time since I read them last so I am enjoying not remembering too many details.

I can't wait to see the movie, from all reports, a good job was done.

Hallie Mae

I felt that Boromir "was driven to the council" in a way... he was drawn by the ring. The ring wanted him.

In a way the movie helped because it dropped some of the people who were not a part of the whole picture.

Somewhere I read (maybe even here) that the book was written before TV so it was a whole "world" to be visited by the mind.

I suddenly realized that I visualize Boromir with Tim McVeigh's face. McVeigh was a quintessential soldier, and absolutely convinced that what everyone else saw as a monstrous act was the proper one for his circumstances. Perhaps Boromir was mad in the same way.

SHEILA: You've made some good points: "Perhaps the real power of the Ring is to rob people of their FREE WILL." I've been reading as much as I can about how the Ring influences the will of the characters (I hope you all understand my sentence) - like Boromir when did he no longer have a will and when or was it regained? Look a Frodo wearing the ring on a chain (was it around his neck? I don't remember) he still has his will - Ring sure hasn't made him mad. Pg. 392 "...Then as a flash from some other point of power there came to his mind another thought: Take it off! Take it off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring." This has been running through my mind! What do you think?

To my mind, your second paragraph sums up The Fellowship perfectly. We're pursuing the intentions of the "powerful" and the "weak," and seeing the similarities. And your third clears my haziness about the relevance of the books to the real world. I've known for years that many in my generation based our political philosophies on LOTR, but it was often faddish instead of reasoned. Now what I want to know is why so many people are so eager for someone to take away their free will!

Brumie, my copy has different pagination. Where is that line you quote?

Hey, Miss Hallie Mae. Good to see you.

Thanks, all. This has been my first shot at a Book Discussion in SN, and I don't know all the rules. Do we have to stop now!?! In any case, many happy returns of New Years Eve.

Hello everyone! You have all made some good points again!

Sasha, we will be starting the discussion of The Two Towers on January 2 as I need a bit of time to make some changes to the heading- and I want to watch the lovely Rose Parade on TV. So we're not stopping yet and won't until we have read the last words of the story itself in The Return of the King.

I think that Brumie's quote comes from the part towards the end of the book where Frodo has put on the Ring to escape from Boromir and is sitting on Amon Hen.

I have been thinking that if Boromir had not gone after Frodo, that he might well have been persuaded to go to Minas Tirith by Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas who all want to go there with Boromir. It would have been wrong for Frodo to go that way. So Boromir's act sets Frodo in the right direction.

There seems to be some powerful force for good at work in the background and it works against the power of the Ring.

I like this bit; another moment of decision for Frodo:

Frodo rose to his feet. A great weariness was on him, but his will was firm and his heart lighter. He spoke aloud to himself. 'I will do now what I must,' he said. 'This at least is plain: the evil of the Ring is already at work even in the Company, and the Ring must leave them before it does more harm. I will go alone. Some I cannot trust, and those I can trust are too dear to me: poor old Sam, and Merry and Pippin. Strider, too: his heart yearns for Minas Tirith, and he will be needed there, now Boromir has fallen into evil. I will go alone. At once.'

While Frodo is off making up his mind as to where he should go and having his run in with Boromir, the others of the Company wait and discuss what they will do. Suddenly Sam notices that Boromir is missing. Then just as they are about to call out to Frodo Boromir returns and will say little of what happened between Frodo and himself.

Sudenly everyone is running this way and that with the idea of finding Frodo. Boromir is told to follow Merry and Pippin and to guard them. Aragorn tells Sam to come with him and races up Amon Hen. But Sam can't keep up with Aragorn, so he uses his head and figures out that Frodo has decided to go to Mordor alone.

"So Frodo and Sam set off on the last stage of the Quest together."

Feel free to keep discussing everyone

Now I'm the forgetful one! I wanted to say hello to Hallie Mae. Hello Hallie Mae! Nice to see you dropping by!

Happy New Year everyone!

HALLIE MAE: Wow! Read the LOTR four times!! This is my second book discussion with SN and I'm still learning things! Everyone, have a WONDERFUL AND SAFE NEW YEAR.

Brumie

I'd like to pick up where Nellie is telling when Boromir returns. Sam jumps up and says "This is bad! I don't know what this Man has been up to. Why should Mr. Frodo put the ring on? He didn't ought to have; and if he has, goodness knows what may have happened!" Merry said "But he wouldn't keep it on. Not when he had escaped the unwelcome visitor, like Bilbo used to." Aragorn then ask Boromir how long has been since he saw Frodo. He guessed maybe an hour but really he didn't know. "He put his head in his hands, and sat as if bowed with grief."

Aragorn then says "We shall all be scattered. Boromir! I do not know what part you have played in his mischief, but help now (pg. 395)!"

I don't think my post #260 was clear it just that I've been thinking about FREE WILL and WILL and tossing my thoughts here and there.

Sasha wrote: > Now what I want to know is why so many people are so eager for someone to take away their free will! >

I can see two reasons people are willing to give up their own free will. The first is fear for personal safety - Frodo uses the ring only when he is terrified - if my memory is right. The second reason is the desire to be irresponsible, the old "The Devil made me do it", or "I was only following orders" excuse for the inexcusable. That one Frodo definitely does not use. The second reason is usually opting for the apparent easy way out of problems.

We see these two reasons used so often in everyday life. I think sometimes it's based on people not really knowing what their true values are.

Thanks everyone for the nice greetings.

I'm way behind on what you're discussing so I probably won't be able to take part until I catch up.

Hallie Mae

Welcome everyone to our discussion of The Two Towers!

In this first week we shall be looking at the following chapters:

The Departure of Boromir
The Riders of Rohan
The Uruk-hai
Treebeard
The White Rider

Thank you all for being here and for making it such an enjoyable discussion.

Boromir is okay in my "book" for trying to save the hobbits.

FancyLou: I agree too! I like him. I honestly feel he was truly sorry.

Hi FrancyLou! Hi Brumie!

Do you think that Boromir died in vain because in the end he did not prevent the orcs from taking Merry and Pippin?

Aragorn takes Boromir's death and the breaking up of the Fellowship rather hard. I think this tells us that he is very consciencious(sp) when it comes to his role as a leader. What do you think?

Some interesting new characters are introduced in these chapters we are perusing: the Riders of Rohan with their leader Eomer son of Eomund, and Third Marshall of the Riddermark; and Treebeard or Fangorn.

Don't the orc names sound positively evil? Ugluk. Grishnahk. Snaga. Lugdush. Mauhur.

I am quite impressed with Treebeard. The Orc's are scary so the needed evil names. I kind of felt like Eomer did not do enough to help.

I'm going back to Sasha's post #250 where she ask "What other instances of physical change do we know of?" On pg. 445 "A long hairy arm took each of them by the neck and drew them close together. Dimly they were aware of Grishnakh's great head and hideous face between them; his foul breath was on their cheeks. He began to paw them and feel them. Pippin shuddered as hard cold fingers groped down his back." It was Grishnakh. "His fingers continued to grope. There was a light like a pale but HOT FIRE BEHIND HIS EYES." Then suddendly the thought came to him "GRISHNAKH KNOWS THE RING! HE'S LOOKING FOR IT....HE PROBABLY WANTS IT FOR HIMSELF!" Remember Boromir - "A RAGING FIRE WAS IN HIS EYES."

I think Pippin is pretty darn smart -

Me too FancyLou (smile)! Remember when Pippin runs away and he says "no hope for escape" but leaves his own marks "He groped with his two tied hands at his throat, and unclasped the brooch of his cloak (pg. 439)."

FrancyLou, forgive all my questions -I seem to be full of them lately-but I have a few more. In what ways are you impressed with Treebeard? He reminds me a lot of Tom Bombadil in the rhythm of his speech and in his strength, and by the fact that he lives in the prescribed area of the forest that is named for him.

Why do you think that Eomer did not do enough to help?

Brumie, the physical changes in those who desire the Ring is interesting. I wonder if they are being physically affected by the Ring?

We are given an interesting bit of information about the Enemy, Sauron:

'Nay!' said Legolas. 'Sauron does not use the Elf-runes.'
'Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelled or spoken,' said Aragorn. 'And he does not use white. The orcs in the service of Barad-dur use the sign of the Red Eye.'

I thought about Sauron not using his right name and wondered why. But I think it might be because in magic those who know your 'real name' can have power over you.

Here is a scene I like: it is both beautiful and sad.

Sorrowfully they cast loose the funeral boat: there Boromir lay, restful, peaceful, gliding upon the bosom of the flowing water. The stream took him while they held their own boat back with their paddles. He floated by them, and slowly his boat departed, waning to a dark spot against the golden light; and then suddenly it vanished. Rauros roared on unchanging. The River had taken Boromir son of Denethor, and he was not seen again in Minas Tirith, standing as he used to stand upon the White Tower in the morning. But in Gondor in after-days it was long said that the elven-boat rode the falls and the foaming pool, and bore him down through Osgiliath, and past the many mouths of Anduin, out into the Great Sea at night under the stars.

A lot of different threads are being created in this book. Does that make it harder for you to get into the story? But patience will be rewarded.

Tomorrow I'll look at the Ents, another invention of Tolkien like hobbits.

Oh Friends, I am so frustrated. All copies of the Two Towers are checked out of the library. The earliest due date for them is Jan. 27. (We have one month checkouts in our library.) My car is dead so I can't get to a bookstore to buy the book, or afford it now that my car demands repairs. So . . . . .

I'll just listen in to the posts until something breaks loose here. One thing sure, I'll have the library put the next volume on reserve for me so I can join in the discussions asap.

Have a great read, fellow readers!

if I could type fast enough I'd keep you up to date. Too bad.

I'll chime in again as soon as I get the heads of some real estate agents knocked together, and a database tutorial written for Monday! Sorry, y'all.

"Treebeard is a character in my story, not me; and though he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the Wise, and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand. He does not know what 'wizards' are, or whence they came....(Letters, pg. 190)."

When I was first intoduced to the Treebeard I immediately thought of Tolkien. Interesting character. I'll say more later.

Nellie: I'll do more thinking about Eomer and the passage about Boromir.

Sheilak: I hope you find a book soon and hurry back.

Sheilak, I ordered mine on the computer. Came in three days.

Nellie - it seemed to me that Treebeard was "child like" trusting, happy in his world.

I thought Eomer should have sent some riders to help them find the place - of course because it is a story they had no trouble finding the field.

Going back to Boromir. Sorrowfully they cast loose the funeral boat: there Boromir lay, restful, peaceful,..... I think he was released from the was released from the spell of the ring.

Why do you suppose Gimli, Legolas, and Aragorn are not affected by the power of the ring. Gandalf admitted to being subject to its lure, as did Galadriel.

I have always found the entwives interesting. So unlike the ents that they went away and were lost. There is a lady at our local farmers market that I think is an entwife!

Sheila, I can quite understand that you are frustrated by not having a copy of The Two Towers.

Sasha, I hope it doesn't take too long to knock those heads together and that you too will be back with us.

Brumie, when you say that Treebeard made you think of Tolkien, do you mean that you see Treebeard being the most like Tolkien himself?

FrancyLou, yes Boromir was freed by his death from the spell or lure of the Ring. Maybe that is the only way to be free of that lure? The first person to have the Ring after Sauron was defeated was Isildur, who took it from Sauron's hand, and he (Isildur) died soon after. Then Deagol found it and he was murdered by Smeagol/Gollum. Gollum lost it to Bilbo and Bilbo is the only person so far who owned the Ring but has willingly given it up. Gollum is still under the Ring's spell and wants it back.

SWN, an excellent question! I'm going to add it to the top so that it is easier for others to see. Merry and Pippin are two other members of the fellowship who are not affected by the power of the Ring.

Entwives...and Ents. The Ents seem to love the wild things and the wild places; and the Entwives love the things and places that are tame. I can think of some interesting thoughts on this but do not want to go there since it would lead us astray.

Tomorrow I'll give a short summary of the first two chapters so that those who don't have the book can keep up a bit.

I think Gimli, Legolas, and Aragorn are pure of heart - there is no evil in them. They do what they have to do, but not with evil in mind.

Brumie - I am in complete agreement. (I always hate when authers make the trees evil).

I was most comfortable in this part of the book, and of all three books.

Tree freak that I am, I'll be back tomorrow, unless I have to shovel a blizzard. Good section of TT; don't want to miss it all.

I had said I would do a summary of the first two chapters of the book, but after reading them again, I realize that Tolkien is impossible to summarize because so much of importance happens in every chapter.

I shall give it a bit of a try though: The Departure of Boromir is primarily about the death of Boromir in battle and his funeral in which his body is set adrift near the falls of Rauros and Aragorn's and legolas' song of lament. Then the chapter finishes with Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli setting out in pursuit of the orcs who have taken Merry and Pippin.

I like this bit from the very end of the chapter:

Like a deer he sprang away. Through the trees he sped. On and on he led them, tireless and swift, now that his mind was at last made up. The woods about the lake they left behind. Long slopes they climbed, dark, hard-edged against the sky already red with sunset. Dusk came. They passed away, grey shadows in a stony land.

In The Riders of Rohan, the three keep up their chase, resting only for brief periods. At one point Aragorn discovers a side-trail and finds the imprint of a hobbit's foot and a leaf-shaped elven brooch on the ground nearby. They stop and rest during the night for fear of missing further clues about the hobbits along the trail. Third day of the pursuit. They have a sense of some will working against them. On the fourth day they are all getting tired and rest on top of a bald hill. In the morning they see far off smoke and a group of riders on the plains below. They go down to the foot of the hill to await the riders. It is only when the Riders have almost ridden past that Aragorn announces their presence. Then there is a dialog between Aragorn and the leader of the Riders, Eomer, in which they sound out loyalties. Then they are given horses and continue the hunt. The chapter ends with them finding the place where the Riders killed and burned the orcs. While they are camped under the eaves of Fangorn Gimli sees a mysterious old man and their horses run away.

Here are some bits about the Riders of Rohan: first what Aragorn knows about them:

'I've been among them,' answered Aragorn. 'They are proud and wilful, but they are true-hearted, generous in thought in thought and deed; bold but not cruel; wise but unlearned, writing no books but singing many songs, after the manner of the children of Men before the Dark Years.

And as they come riding along:

Their horses were of great stature, strong and clean-limbed; their grey coats glistened, their long tails flowed in the wind, their manes were braided on their proud necks. The Men that rode them matched them well: tall and long-limbed; their hair, flaxen-pale, flowed under their light helms, and streamed in long braids behind them; their faces were stern and keen. In their hands were tall spears of ash, painted shields were slung at their backs, long swords were at their belts, their burnished shirts of mail hung down upon their knees.

We will come to know more of these Riders as the story goes on.

FrancyLou, yes, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli do not have evil in them. And that could be why they are not affected by the Ring.

Brumie, I love Tolkien's thoughts on Treebeard. Thank you for sharing that piece. It is one of the nicest chapters in the whole story; I agree with you on that.

Some more thought tomorrow. Thank you again for being here with me.

that's a first-class summary. Thanks. I need to back and read y'all's postings before I start babbling again. A good night for it, with heavy rain and sleet. So nice to have SeniorNet and Tolkien to curl up with.

I finally saw the movie yesterday. The three hours sped by because it seemed like constant action. The interludes at Rivendell and Lothorien were far too swift, but I guess they couldn't be as long as in the book. The scenes from these two places almost matched, but surpassed, my imagination when reading about them. Violent, yes, but so are the books. Can't wait until next year to see "The Two Towers". I know I will have to reread before seeing the next two parts so as to be familiar with names, etc. Although I sometimes wished that more of the detail could have been left in, I know that is impossible with film. Overall, I would definitely say that the film captured the feel of the book. All awards will be well deserved, IMHO.

Sasha, welcome back!

BabsNH, I found that the movie really caught my attention too and never let it go.

In the book Meditations on Middle-Earth, Ursula K. Le Guin mentions in her essay Rhythmic Patterns in the Lord of the Rings that one of the patterns in the story is that of 'stress and relief': that each time the characters undergo some stressful experience, they almost always experience a more pleasant experience afterwards. I'm thinking that the two chapters The Uruk-hai, and Treebeard illustrate that perfectly. In The Uruk-hai, Merry and Pippin undergo the stress of being the captives of orcs and of being carried along like pieces of luggage; and in Treebeard they have the pleasure of meeting Treebeard and spending time in his house.

Can you spot any similar patterns?

Nellie: Interesting that you brought this up about the group having a bad experience and then a good one. I was thinking that earlier this morning. I noticed that too!

One situation is when they travel to Rivendell - The Riders are after Frodo, he uses the Ring, and he is wounded. I'd like to make another observation is what they find when they arrive to the good places and how they feel when they leave the good places.

Frodo: "Slowly the hall filled, and Frodo looked with delight upon the many fair faces that were gathered together, the golden firelight played upon them and shimered in their hair. Suddendly he noticed, not far from the further end of the fire, a small dark figure seated on a stool with his back propped against a pillar. Beside him on the ground was a drinking-cup and some bread. Frodo wondered whether he was ill (if people were ever ill in Rivendell), and had been unable to come to the feast. His head seemed sunk in sleep on his breast, and a fold of his dark cloak was drawn on his face.

"Elrond went forward and stood beside the silent figure. 'Awake, little master' he said, with a smile. Then, turning to Frodo, he beckoned to him. 'Now at last the hour has come that you have wished for, Frodo,' he said. 'Here is a friend that you have long missed.' The dark figure raised its head and uncovered his face. 'Bilbo!' cried Frodo with sudden recognition, and he sprang forward (pg. 224).

Another place is when they lose Gandalf The Bridge of Khazad-Dum. Their good experience is in Lorien. They leave sad. "Suddendly the River swept round a bend, and the banks rose upon either side, and the light of Lorien was hidden. To that fair land Frodo never came again.

"The travellers now turned their faces to the journey; the sun was before them, and their eyes were dazzled, for all were filled with tears. Gimli wept openly."

Could I reflect some? When I look back on all I've read I discovered how much Tolkien wrote about nature. It is either good or bad. Take for example The Old Forest - Old Man Willow and Treebeard "Pippin looked behind. The number of the Ents had grown.....Where the dim bare slopes that they had crossed should lie, he thought he saw groves of trees .....THEY WERE MOVING...the forest was rising, marching over the hills to war?"

I also find it interesting how Tolkien has broken up the fellowship and has now become three teams going in different directions. Sam and Frodo, Merry and Pippin, and Gilmi, Legolas, and Aragorn. It will be interesting to see how Tolkien will bring this together.

SASHA: Glad your back! YEA!

The examples mentioned of the alternating good and bad experiences is what made reading the trilogy so enjoyable to me, I think. Once I recognized this pattern, I never got stressed about happenings. I knew that better things were around the corner, and I looked forward to them.

Nellie,

Your enclosed section from the Death of Boromir struck me strangely with its style which reminds me so of Longfellow's Song of Hiawatha; something in the rhythm and word order. Just love that section.

Thanks for your summary. What an amazing challenge it must have been!

I got some good news. My book is due to come in tomorrow. I'll soon catch up with you all.

Have a grat read on this really wintery night.

Sheila

Brumie, good thoughts! The feast at Elrond's house gives one a sense of peace and enjoyment. I also find that the 'relief' after a harrowing experience may come within a chapter and that it may be a sad experience that supplies the sense of relief. For instance, after the hurly-burly of everyone running off this way and that, and Boromir's battle with the orcs and his death; his funeral on the lake near the Falls gives me a great sense of peacefulness.

I love the nature in this story. It is interesting to do a bit of comparison of the two forests, which I think stand in opposition to each other as natural places. From the Old Forest one gets a sense of animosity towards other living things; Old Man Willow tries to "eat" some of the hobbits and attempts to drown the others. I wonder if Old Man Willow was an Ent who had gone treeish or a tree that was waking up and becoming Ent-like?

Then we have Treebeard's or Fangorn's Forest. One gets a sense of watchfulness but never a sense of animosity in this place, and the tree-like Treebeard is kind and friendly to the two hobbits, Merry and Pippin.

Yet both forests have this in common: the trees move. They move in secret in the Old Forest and openly in Fangorn as they march off to war.

BabsNH, the fact that there was always a nice experience not far off when things were getting bad for the characters is one of the things I enjoy in LOTR.

Tomorrow I would like to take a look at chapter 3: The Uruk-hai. Here we get a look at the 'foot soldiers' of their enemies. Any thoughts on this chapter?

Hi Sheila, you were posting just ahead of me! It will be great to have you with us again!

When Legolas, Aragorn and Gimli set out at great speed to find the others, did anyone wonder how Gimli could keep up with Legolas and Aragorn?

I've been trying to follow the Company's trail on the map provided at the beginning of the books, I have the paperback edtions which are very difficult to read, even with a magnifying glass.

Treebeard is sooo comforting to Merry and Pippin (and me!) after all they have been through.

I too like the fact that Tolkien eases up the stress on the reader as well as the heroes by having good things happen to them periodically. It's been quite a while since I last read the books so many of the events I had forgotten. Right now I'm at a place in the book where Frodo and Sam get some well earned relief. I'm trying to read it more carefully this time, I think I rushed through the other times, just to see what was going to happen next.

Hallie Mae, on Gimli keeping up with Aragorn and Legolas: I've wondered about that too. He is one tough cookie is all I can say. I'd have to check -but isn't Gimli wearing some kind of chainmail armor? I know he carries a big axe in his belt and that can't be light. He does appear to be 'super-dwarf' doesn't he?

Now that I'm not sneezing every five minutes I can take a look at chapter 3 and perhaps chapter 5 as well. Of course, I'd like to look more at Treebeard too.

I think that chapter 3: The Uruk-hai is one of the more unsavoury chapters in the whole story. The orcs seem to have no redeeming features whatsoever. We see the orcs from the point of view of Pippin, who along with Merry is their captive. We are given an indication of how argumentative the orcs of different factions are amongst each other by their quarrel over what should be done with their captives and the resulting murderous fight. But it gives Pippin a chance to do something that will eventually help him and Merry escape:

'Now,'thought Pippin, 'if it only takes that ugly fellow a little while to get his troops under control, I've got a chance.' A gleam of hope had come to him. The edge of the black knife had snicked his arm, and then slid down to his wrist. He felt the blood trickling onto his hand, but he also felt the cold touch of steel against his skin. ...For the moment Pippin was unwatched. His legs were securely bound, but his arms were only tied about the wrists, and his hands were in front of him. ...He pushed the dead orc to one side, then hardly daring to breathe, he drew the knot of the wrist-cord up and down against the blade of the knife. It was sharp and the dead hand held it fast. The cord was cut! Quickly Pippin took it in his fingers and knotted it again into a loose bracelet of two loops and slipped it over his hands.

Pippin is very resourceful, isn't he? First he seizes the chance to cut the bonds around his arms when it is given to him; and then he takes the chance of running off the orc trail in the mist and drops the leaf brooch so that anyone who is following will know that he and Merry are still alive. Then when Grishnahk is searching them for the Ring he pretends to have it, and together he and Merry goad Grishnahk into carrying them away.

There seem to be three factions of orcs: one group has come from Moria and is simply out for revenge; another group comes from Mordor and seems to be there more to keep an eye on the other groups than anything else; and the third group comes from Isengard, from Saruman, and they have been charged with bringing the hobbits back alive.

Here is another bit of writing in the book that I like:

Pippin was bruised and torn, his aching head was grated by the filthy jowl and hairy ear of the Orc that held him. Immediately in front were bowed backs, and tough thick legs going up and down, up and down, unresting, as if they were made of wire and horn, beating out the nightmare seconds of an endless time.

Don't you love it that Merry and Pippin stop to eat when they are both free before doing anything else?

I shall leave The White Rider for the next post...

Nellie liked your passage when you refered to the Orc carrying Pippin. That really made me sick "hairy ear." Another good one (pg. 445) "A long HAIRY ARM took each of them by the neck and drew them close together. Dimely they were aware of Grishnakh's GREAT HEAD and hideous face between them, his FOUL BREATH was on their checks." YUCK!

Tolkien's description "They are (or were) squat, broad, flatnosed, sallow-skinned, and with wide mouths and slant eyes.... (Letters #210)"

I really do like Gimli he is a real fighter.

Did anybody catch this (pg. 336)?

"Then he heard a faintly a sound like SNIFFING....Something was now climbing slowly, and its breath came like a soft HISSING through closed teeth.....Frodo saw two pale eyes..." Didn't catch that one till now. It was Gollum!

Pg. 374 Sam said he heard a SNIFFING noise. Then Frodo sees "two pale lamplike eyes....and Frodo heard the soft HISS of intaken breath." He's been near them in Lothlorien and The Great River.

HALLIE MAE: On maps go back to Nellie's post #66. Click on OUTLINE which is up at the top where it reads FIRST PREVIOUS OUTLINE you might find it quicker to find.

Orc's remind me of houseflys - ick!

Brumie, thanks for the tip on finding the maps. Maybe I'm a dummy, but I wish the author marked the exact trail with all the names printed. I can't find Rivendell, or am I not supposed to since it's Elf land?

Aren't the Urak Hai, Saruman's creations? Worse than Orcs? When I read the book I visualized them as the same kind of creatures the witch's solders were in the "Wizard of Os" - Yo hee ho, you hee ho - brrr scary.

I saw the movie today. It was good, but I found it a bit too violent. Where'd they come up with a kissing scene between Aragorn and Arwen? Much in the movie was cleverly done, how they made the actors who played the hobbits look so smal was quite a feat. I don't remember Merry and Pippin being so comical in the book but in the movie they are funny and endearing. i went with two friends who never read the books and had to assure them that everyone survived, except of course Boromir.

Hallie Mae

Brumie, do you have one of those versions of LOTR that has all the books in one book? I haven't seen the part you mention yet.

FrancyLou, I like that image of the Orcs looking like giant houseflies.

Hallie Mae, yes the Uruk-hai are Saruman's creations and Treebeard wonders this about them 'I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men? That would be a black evil!'

Today we add the following chapters to the ones under discussion:
The King of the Golden Hall
Helm's Deep
The Road to Isengard
Flotsam and Jetsam
The Voice of Saruman
The Palantir

Since I am not very good at thinking of questions, I'm considering putting in a different quote from the book under discussion once a week. I'm starting with Treebeard's description because I think he is such a neat character.

But first a bit about the White Rider. There is a big surprise in this chapter and someone familiar returns to us. Were you at all surprised by the identity of the old man?

Aragorn looked and beheld a bent figure moving slowly. It was not far away. It looked like an old beggar-man, walking wearily, leaning on a rough staff. His head was bowed and he did not look towards them. In other lands they would have greeted him with kind words; but now they stood silent, each feeling a strange expectancy: something was approaching that held a hidden power-or menace.

We are given a hint here that this old man is not just any old man, aren't we?

Nellie: Oops! I'll start again - pg. 374 (last paragraph) and top of page 375) "In the dead hours Frodo came out of a deep dark sleep to find Sam shaking him. 'It's a shame to wake you' whispered Sam, 'but that's what you said. There's nothing to tell, or not much. I thought I heard some soft plashing and a SNIFFING noise...." Is that better? You might say I was on "bug spray!" (smile)

Do you think this is another one of the pattern where there is stress and relief? Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli lose Boromir, Sam and Frodo are gone, the Orcs have taken Merry and Pippin and don't forget Gandalf is dead. The relief was to discover that the white rider is GANDALF and he's alive. JOYJOYJOY

I saw that yesterday, and thought there was way too much battle - more than Tolkien intended. They just converted Arwen from a character in a song into a romantic interest - Hollywood can't abide a tale without sex. The sets are perfect, and on the whole it is pretty faithful to the book.

Hallie Mae #300 I was joyed to see that kiss, because I had read some of the appendix in which is described a scene that could or not have been an intimate time between the two. In this scene they were said to have plighted their troth. That would require a kiss, wouldn't it? LOL

I love the Ents. They remind me so much of the American character. Sort of the attitude of simply wanting the world to leave us alone, not really interested in being involved with others' problems unless it directly impacts us. Slow to anger, but fast moving and powerful when aroused. Really somewhat isolationist, but trying to be faithful to the domestic duty given them.

Actually the pattern I see throughout this story is the way different races/cultures seem to be assigned a unique role in the unfolding of some larger pattern, each serving according to its nature and gift at the appointed time: as if following a script, yet still exercising the right to choose their response to the situation presented them.

The book presents a metaphor of the rise and fall of civilizations, as if each has an appointed lifespan, a predistined part to play, a specific reason for being in a plan that simply transcends our human capacity to comprehend.

Of course, I don't believe for a minute that the author was thinking of that.

Brumie, I think that the pages of my book are numbered differently. But we'll come to Frodo and Sam in another week and then I'll find it I'm sure.

Yes, in the return of Gandalf we have another example of the stress and relief pattern in the story.

SWN, I think that there is quite a bit of battle in the book too. I'll have to check through Fellowship of the Ring to see how many. I too found that the movie is true to the book, or what I call the essence of the book.

BabsNH, Arwen and Aragorn are in love, so I at least would expect them to do an occasional bit of kissing.

In The King of the Golden Hall we are introduced to a number of new characters: Theoden, Eowyn, Wormtongue (Grima) -that name tells you all doesn't it?

Isn't Gandalf letting in the 'light' into the dim Hall and leading Theoden outside marvelous?

But shall we look a moment at these new characters? Theoden, who when we first see him sits on his throne and looks upon Gandalf, Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas with bright burning eyes; his hair is long, thick and in long white braids, and his snowy white beard flows over his knees. He is so bent over by age that it almost appears he is a dwarf. But when he rises to his feet, it can be seen that he was once tall and still is.

Wormtongue has but a short description: 'a wizened figure of a man, with a pale wise face and heavy-lidded eyes.'

Eowyn:

The woman turned and went slowly back into the house. As she passed the doors she turned and looked back. Grave and thoughtful was her glance, as she looked on the king with cool pity in her eyes. Very fair was her face, and her long hair was like a river of gold. Slender and tall she was in her white robe girt with silver; but strong she seemed and stern as steel, a daughter of kings. Thus Aragorn for the first time in the full light of day beheld Eowyn, Lady of Rohan, and thought her fair, fair and cold, like a morning of pale spring that is not yet come into womanhood.

Interesting characters, are they not?

Sheila, I think that we were posting at the same time. Your post is very good and has things in it which I must think about some more.

Sheila, I really like your observations about the Ents, and about the various "races" with analogs to human tribes. How about "Norwegian bachelor farmers" (from Lake Wobegon) as Ents?

babsNH and Nellie, I thought it was only a fleeting glance between them and also I wondered about Aragorn's reaction to Eowyn - doesn't she have a yen for him?

The description of Theoden and his people made me think of the Vikings.

The hobbits, to me, are like an "everyday" people, unremarkable, mainly concerned with their own small daily pleasures. Once under stress and put to the test though, they exhibit toughness and resiliency and become capable of heroic deeds. It made me think of the "ordinary" brave souls who risked their lives on September 11.

Hallie Mae

SWN - The 'Norwegian Bachelor farmers'? That's a good idea. Only I don't get the feeling they're as active as the Ents.

Hallie, you are right, there is no mention in this book of their love, so actually it should not have been included in this movie. I will say no more about it until The Return of the King.

I have not been reading along at all, but posted before the book began back in September. I have read thru all the posts today and have been overjoyed to read all your comments. You all have provided much insight into the story, characters and Tolkien. Having read the books several times many years ago, and now having seen the movie has rekindled the love I had for the books when I read them and read them to my wife and son.

I am amazed at everyone's thoughts about various people and their motivations, strengths and weaknesses. I do not have the time to re-read the books right now, but will continue to enjoy reading your comments and will comment whenever I have a thought or observation. Thank you all for so much wonderful insight. Ron

Ron, on behalf of all of us I thank you for that very nice comment!

Hallie Mae, I do think that Eowyn does have a 'yen' for Aragorn from that moment she sets eyes on him, but he only pities her. I think that we will learn more about this as we read on.

It is getting close to that time when I shut down my computer and prepare for my reading time in bed before retiring for the night; so I will be back tomorrow with some more thoughts on what has been said.

babNH, thanks, I'm a quarter of the way through the last book now and there has been a slight hint about Arwen. It's getting a little hard to keep all the threads separate in my mind but reading more carefully has helped.

Hallie Mae

Hello all! I was reading in Chapter 6 and discovered something interesting. I think that Wormtongue is a cowardly whiner; but Gandalf sees him as being 'bold and cunning' and playing a dangerous game. How do you see Wormtongue?

However, he is one creepy character as this piece shows:

Slowly Wormtongue rose. He looked at them with half-closed eyes. Last of all he scanned Theoden's face and opened his mouth as if to speak. Then suddenly he drew himself up. His hands worked. His eyes glittered. Such malice was in them that men stepped back from him. He bared his teeth; and then with a hissing breath he spat before the king's feet, and darting to one side, he fled down the stair.

Aragorn and Eowyn: she is falling for him. When she passes the cup to him her eyes are shining as she looks at him, and her hand trembles when they momentarily touch. Then as the Riders are about to leave for Helm's Deep, she speaks to the king:

"Speak not so!" she answered. "A year I shall endure for every day that passes until your return." But as she spoke her eyes went to Aragorn who stood nearby.

Don't you love Gandalf as the White Rider?

Then suddenly he threw back his grey cloak, and cast aside his hat, and leaped to horseback. He wore no helm nor mail. His snowy hair flew free in the wind, his white robes shone dazzling in the sun.

Helm's Deep. I think this whole chapter is one of the best descriptions of battle that I have read. By the time the chapter ends I was just as tired as the characters from all the constant attacks from the Orcs and Wild Men. This is not a bad thing because it meant I was so caught up in what I was reading that I was virtually living it. Does anyone else have that happen when they read?

What did you think of Gimli's and Legolas' contest as to who killed the most of the enemies? Does it add moments of relief to the high tension present in this chapter?

I think this is enough for today. For someone who can't think of questions, I'm sure full of them! LOL I can think of questions in my posts, but not when I have to put them in the heading up above.

Once more, thank you each and everyone for being here! I enjoy all your posts

Oh, Wormtongue was an unconscionable manipulator. His sole purpose in his involvement seemed simply to be self-serving, to put himself in a position of power. He had loyalty to no one but himself. When he threw the glass communication orb from the tower, it seemed an act of spite against Saruman, who certainly was outraged by the move.

Nellie, I was exhausted at the end of the battle at Helm's Deep, actually short of breath.

The competition between Gimli and Legolas was interesting on a couple of levels. It gave a bit of comic relief, yet it was also a way to reduce some of the sense of horror the two must have felt in such a battle. My father-in-law was a professional soldier who told us tales of the humor the young American fighters in WWII used to protect their minds from being overwhelmed by the awful things they saw and did. The competition between G. & L. revealed the depth of the friendship developing between them, their mutual respect as warriors.

Eowyn and Aragorn - Oh, I think she is at the time more drawn to him than she can show, given the circumstances. Though she is presented as a woman of cold steel, she is behaving in a crisis as a King's daughter must, especially one to whom the care of the people is now entrusted. Plus, I can't imagine her emotions at seeing Theodan just released from the control of Wormtongue who had been slowly and deliberately emasculating him. A lot to handle. She was wise to know it was not the time for personal indulgence.

Nellie, you're doing a great job keeping this discussion on track. This is my first discussion group in B&L, and I'm loving it! Thanks.

There is a touching scene between Shadowfax and Gandalf.

"That is Shadowfax. He is the chief of the Mearas, lords of horses, and not even Theoden, King of Rohan, has ever looked on a better. Does he not shine like silver, and run as smoothly as a swift stream? He has come for me: the horse of the White Rider. We are going to battle together. Even as the old wizard spoke, the great horse came striding up the slope towards them; his coat was glistening and his mane flowing in the wind of his speed.....As soon as Shadowfax saw Gandalf, he checked his pace and whinnied loudly; the trotting gently forward he stooped his proud head and nuzzled his great nostrils against the old man's neck."

Sheila, good post! The competition between Legolas and Gimli does show us their growing friendship and the fact that Legolas is happy to see Gimli alive after they have become separated in battle adds to idea that these two are becoming fast friends.

I'm glad you are enjoying this discussion, and I hope you will join us in other ones

Brumie, that piece from the Silmarillion tells us more about Sauron and the One Ring. Thanks for sharing that. I have a copy of that book somewhere in the house, but haven't been able to find it yet.

I love that scene with Gandalf and Shadowfax too. It is small touches like that on the part of Tolkien that add to the enjoyment of this book.

The Road to Isengard.

What I like most in this chapter is Gimli's loving description of the Caves at Helm's Deep. I think it gives you an insight into both Gimli and Dwarves in general. Gimli makes you want to visit those Caves doesn't he? And Legolas offers an interesting bargain: that he visit the Caves with Gimli and that Gimli visit Fangorn Forest with him.

Theoden, Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli and others who ride with them arrive at Nan Curunir, the Wizard's Vale, which once was fair and green, but now...

Beneath the walls of Isengard there were still acres tilled by the slaves of Saruman; but most of the valley had become a wilderness of weeds and thorns. Brambles trailed upon the ground, or clambering over bush and bank, made shaggy caves where small beasts housed. No trees grew there; but among the rank grasses could still be seen the burned and axe-hewn stumps of ancient groves. It was a sad country, silent now but for the stony noise of quick waters. Smokes and steams drifted in sullen clouds and lurked in the hollows.

And there is Orthanc: signifying both the Elvish 'Mount Fang' and the Mark's 'Cunning Mind'.

A peak and isle of rock it was, black and gleaming hard: four mighty piers of many-sided stone were melded into one, but near the summit they opened into gaping horns, their pinnacles sharp as the points of spears, keen-edged as knives. Between them was a narrow space, and there upon a floor of polished stone, written with strange signs, a man might stand five hundred feet above the plain.

Saruman changed a place of beauty into a second rate copy of Sauron's Dark Tower. Those who are evil always have those who try to emulate them, don't they?

I have to go now, but more on this chapter and the next ones tomorrow.

I love Shadowfax ! He is a free spirit that loves Gandalf. I can just see him running to meet Gandalf.

Wormtongue was Saruman's lackey, I picture him as a sort of Uriah Heep, sly, nasty, fawning. Of course he and Saruman turned on each other when things started to go wrong.

Tolkien wrote so many satisfying scenes such as Legolas and Gimli becoming fast friends and Shadowfax responding to Gandolf. What a relief it was to see Gandolf return.

I think Eowyn saw herself as a warrior maiden and the kingly aspect of Aragorn attracted her.

One of the problems I have in trying to read more carefully this time, is that I still get so caught up in what's happening and rush through a chapter.

Hallie Mae

.

Hallie Mae, I do that, too. The story just seems to draw me on, always just a few more pages, and I find I'm chapters ahead. Then when you folks make comments, I have to go back and find the references and re-read. But I don't mind. The various insights are certainly making this reading a rich experience. Hardship dity !

) )

Sheila

Usually I just help maintain this site as the WebMaster, but this is the first book discussion in which I feel compelled to participate.

Nellie, you've done such a great job of moderating and making sure that the end doesn't get ruined for everybody. (Though I'm sure that none of us doubt that good will triumph over evil - it is all in the 'how' that we wait for the mystery to unfold.)

I just finished Book 3 today, and find it difficult to put the book down. I especially love the relationship between Legolas and Gimli. Throughout the battle at Helm's Deep (the best battle scene I've ever read, I might add) I found myself gasping and nervously clenching my fists, and then laughing at the interactions of the two - both on the same page. Tolkien really is the master of the emotional roller-coaster.

I love the way that Aragorn seems to be growing into his role as King. The parley during the battle and the arrival of reinforcements at that precise moment seems to reinforce not only his troops efforts, but his divine right to the throne. I think that this is the first moment in which we start to see, and in which he starts to feel his regal nature.

I too saw the movie and thought it a bit too Hollywood. Lot's of extra battles, and the beginnings of the love story with Arwen and Aragorn. But I think in general it was wonderful. I think it might be hard to portray some of Tolkien's subtleties, such as the glances between Arwen and Aragorn, or the nuances of the battle, on film. Also, if they were perfectly true to the book, it would have been something like an 8 hour movie. I must say though, that I missed the character of Tom Bombadil, and though I am only halfway through the trilogy, I imagine he has some part to play later, which would have been better served by his appearance in the first part of the 3 movies.

I am concerned by Aragorn's observations about Pipe-weed being found in Isengard, and that it means there must be some contact between Saruman and the Shire. Suspecting the worst, I am starting to be fearful of Sam, innocent as he seems, because he of all people could do the most damage to the quest. Also, could there be a connection to the fact that we have Saruman the WISE, and Master SamWISE Gamgee? Anyone else share my suspicions? (PS - I have not finished, and do not want any form of confirmation of these suspicions from those who have - I'm just wondering if anyone thinks the same.)

On that note, I'm interested to find out what everyone thinks of the whole notion of the "Pipe-Weed." At times they refer to it as if it were tobacco, but at others like it might be something, well, a little more potent.... Saruman tells Gandalf that his mind is clouded by the halflings weed, and then when they are lost in the mines of Moria, Gandalf says, 'I know what's wrong with me - I haven't had the pipe-weed in 4 days!" Then the chapter ends with a beautiful description of the old Wizard smoking in the dark. It's interesting to me that pipe weed plays such an integral role (and is even glorified) in what is perhaps the greatest fantasy ever written, when it seems such an obvious reference to Marijuana. Anyone else have any thoughts on this? Anyone know if Tolkien has a personal history with "pipe-weed" of his own?

Also, I think the inconsistency between the Simarllion and Galadriel wearing the ring is not necessarily an inconsistency. Remember that the Ring of Power has been lost and Sauron has not had it for nearly a thousand years. Since this is the case, it seems not anachronistic that Galadriel should wear the ring.

Thanks, and I can't wait to continue the book and to discuss it with you all.

-Eric Spletzer, SeniorNet WebMaster

Arwen and Eowyn, I was confused also. Even after seeing the movie. The star that she gave to Strider I thought was the gift that the Elven Queen gave to Frodo. I could not understand how the director of the movie had messed it up so badly, lol.

I thought pipe-weed was tobacco, Marijuana never entered my mind. People are addicted to tobacco. I wanted to add the word also after tobacco, but I don't know if people are addicted to Marijuana.

Having just picked up a copy of Tolkien's "The Complete Guide to Middle Earth" I will quote what he says about the definition of Pipe-weed.

Pipeweed: The tobacco of Middle-earth. Originally brought to Middle-Earth from Numenor, pipe-weed grew abundantly in Gondor but only with great care in the North, in places like Longbottom and Bree. In Gondor pipe-weed was esteemed for the fragrance of its flowers, but Hobbits, probably in Bree, were the first to smoke it. Dwarves, Rangers. Gamdalf, and other wanderers picked up the habit at the Prancing Pony and about TA 2670 Tobold Hornblower grew pipeweed for the first time in the Shire. Of the Companions of the Ring, Gandalf, Aragorn, Merry, Pippin, and Gimli were avid smokers, but Legolas, perhaps in common with all Elves, diapproved of the habit.

Hope this helps settle the question somewhat.

Where to begin? Such a lot of good posts! I think I shall begin with this...

Eric, welcome to our discussion and you start off with such an interesting post! I too think that Aragorn is beginning to grow into his role as king. Standing there above the gate at Helm's Deep he is less the Ranger and more the King than he was before.

I would never suspect Sam of any wrong doing. But there is some sort of interaction between Saruman -or at least Isengard- and some party in the Shire, and that is troubling, because you realize as you read that bit that the Shire is not as isolated as it seemed to be; that it is no longer the safe haven you believed it to be.

Denjer, I welcome you as well! Thank you for that clarification on what pipe-weed is. I had to smile at Legolas being the non-smoker in the company: the poor Elf must breathe in a lot of second hand smoke.

FrancyLou, Shadowfax is a beautiful horse -almost like quicksilver, or like the wind itself made visible.

Hallie Mae, Sheila, I have the same thing happening with getting so caught up in the action that I read faster than I want to do. It has been a good ten years since I last read the Rings Trilogy so a lot of it is almost like new.

Brumie, that is a nice bit on the first meeting of Aragorn and Arwen. I like romantic things like that.

As I was reading of Theoden meeting with Treebeard and with Merry and Pippin, I thought to myself how I would feel if I suddenly met beings who had up to then been only legends. I think I would feel totally awed and overcome by emotion. How about you?

The wreckage of Isengard is both heartening and somehow sad, as the destruction of something that once was beautiful is always sad. As we ride along with Gandalf and the others, we see that the hand on the pillar of the Hand is no longer white. There are pools of water everywhere as if not long before there was a flood; and the doors to Isengard lie in twisted ruin on the ground. Everywhere there is stone: "cracked and splintered into countless jagged shards, was scattered far and wide, or piled in ruinous heaps." The great arch opens into a roofless chasm where once there was a tunnel and the ring beyond is filled with steaming water.

Then comes a surprise!

There they saw close beside them a great rubble heap; and suddenly they were aware of two small figures lying on it at their ease, grey-clad, hardly to be seen among the stones. There were bottles and bowls and platters laid beside them, as if they had just eaten well, and now rested from their labour. One seemed asleep; the other, with crossed legs and arms behind his head, leaned back against a broken rock and sent from his mouth long wisps and little rings of thin blue smoke.

I like this part with the interaction between the different characters. But I'm out of time for tonight and shall say more tomorrow.

After seeing my children under the influence of marijuana, I think pipeweed must be tobacco. Otherwise Gandalf, Frodo, and Samwise could not have committed to such an adventure, and persevered through hardship and true peril. No matter how my kids FELT under the influence of mj, they behaved stupidly, immorally, and illegally. And unfortuantely, I really see evidence that prolonged use really kills brain cells and conscience. So given the behavior and choices of the characters in this story, I'm convinced it is tobacco.

It must be my age, I never gave it a thought that they might be smoking marijuana.

Sheila, like you, I too have seen stupid behavior of people while under the influence of pot. Pipe smoking brings back fond memories of me plopped on my dear grandfather's lap while he rocked me and smoked his pipe - Edgeworth tobacco, I think.

I finished the books and have read part of Appendix A. I loved the story of Aragorn and Arwen's romance - it was like reading a little short story about characters you wanted to know more about.

I wonder indeed how exciting it would be to meet a legend. I think my first choice would be a hobbit and then an elf. The Appendix has clarified the differences between the elves of Rivendell and Lorien. I will be exploring more of these fascinating "extras."

Hallie Mae .

Brumie, my book contains no prologue or appendix. Looks like I'm missing some really helpful info.

Hello everyone! I'm going to take a quick look at The Voice of Saruman and then at The Palantir. I may have to do it in two posts since soon I have to scrounge up some supper for my younger sister and myself and I don't like to leave my post unposted. And I'm forgetting all about Flotsam and Jetsam -chapter 9! I should maybe start with that!

Flotsam and Jetsam contains Merry and Pippin's tale of the Ents attack on Isengard. They wait patiently as all of Saruman's immense army of Wild Men, Orcs, and Half-Orcs marches out through the gates. Then Treebeard goes up to the gate and begins banging on it, and from above the defenders shoot arrows at him. (I like this piece)

'When Treebeard had got a few arrows in him, he began to warm up, to get positively "hasty" as he would say. He let out a great hoom-hom, and a dozen more Ents came striding up. An angry Ent is terrifying. Their fingers, and their toes, just freeze onto rock; and they tear it up like bread-crust. ...They pushed, pulled, tore, shook, and hammered; and clang-bang, crash-crack, in five minutes they had these huge gates just lying in ruin; and some were beginning to eat into the walls, like rabbits in a sand-pit.

I shall be back -but have to do the supper thing first

I'm back!

Those Ents are sure something when they are riled up, aren't they? And Quickbeam almost gets Saruman! Then when Saruman retaliates the Ents really get going; it must have been a frightening site for Pippin and Merry to watch. The Ents dam up the Isen and then release it into Isengard and flood out all the hidden caverns.

Now The Voice of Saruman.

Gandalf to go up and parley with Saruman. He knows the peril. Theoden to go with him because he is old and fears no peril and Eomer to come and make sure Theoden does not stumble on the stairs. Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas also go.

I like this 'description' of Saruman's Voice.

Suddenly another voice spoke, low and melodious, its very sound an enchantment. Those who listened unwarily to that voice could seldom report the words that they heard; and if they did, they wondered, for little power remained in them. Mostly they remembered only that it was a delight to hear the voice speaking, all that it said was wise and reasonable, and desire woke in them by swift agreement to seem wise themselves. When others spoke they seemed harsh and uncouth by contrast; and if they gainsaid the voice, anger was kindled in the hearts of those under the spell. For some the spell lasted only while the voice spoke to them, and when it spoke to another they smiled, as men do who see through a juggler's trick while others gape at it. For many the sound of the voice alone was enough to hold them enthralled; but for those whom it conquered the spell endured when they were far away, and ever they heard that soft voice whispering and urging them. But none were unmoved; none rejected its pleas and its commands without an effort of mind and will, so long as its master had control of it.

Using his 'voice' Saruman tries to persuade Theoden to make peace and to renew the friendship between the Mark and Isengard. When he fails, he shows his true colours in a rant on the baseness of Theoden and his people. After that he attempts to persuade Gandalf to join him, and everyone there is certain that Gandalf will do so...until Gandalf laughs and then the spell of Saruman's voice is broken. Then when Gandalf ask him to come down, we see...

A shadow passed over Saruman's face; then it went deathly white. Before he could conceal it, they saw through the mask the anguish of a mind in doubt, loathing to stay and dreading to leave its refuge. For a second he hesitated, and no one breathed. Then he spoke, and his voice was shrill and cold. Pride and hate were conquering him.

Finally when Saruman makes to leave the balcony he stands on Gandalf orders him back and breaks his staff. As Saruman slinks back inside Wormtongue throws something like a heavy glass ball down from the tower.

What do you think of Gandalf saying he will do nothing to Saruman?

This is another great chapter, isn't it?

I'm convinced. I hadn't seen the description saying it was Nicotania - I wouldn't have even mentioned it if Saruman hadn't accused the Pipe-Weed of clouding Gandalf's wit.

But I am convinced - you guys are thorough! LOL!

Today we travel on into Book 4 and begin discussing the following chapters:

The Taming of Smeagol
The Passage of the Marshes
The Black Gate is Closed
Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
The Window on the West

But first some thoughts on The Palantir.

What did you think of the way Pippin's insatiable curiosity about the palantir is written? I found myself getting really involved in the whole thing.

And Pippin saves the day for both Gandalf and Aragorn by looking in the Palantir and being questioned by Sauron. Are there more times when a 'wrong' action on the part of a character turns to good?

Aragorn claims the palantir because it belongs to him as king. Do you think he will ever make use of it?

When the Nazgul flies over, Gandalf is suddenly in a rush and he takes Pippin with him on Shadowfax to Minas Tirith. Don't you like the way Pippin questions Gandalf rather relentlessly? And Merry goes with Aragorn, gimli, Legolas and the Riders.

Eric, surely you did not take Saruman's opinion that Gandalf's mind was clouded by the pipe-weed at face value? LOL I guess our voices were more persuasive in the end.

Brumie, good bit from that letter telling us that Saruman's voice is persuasive and not hypnotic.

Now we are back with Frodo and Sam.

You could say that Frodo is the main protagonist or character in the whole story and yet we have just come through 11 chapters in which he was barely mentioned. Does that strike you as odd?

Book 2 ended with a real cliff hanger, Frodo captured and Sam unable to get to him. It was maddening to start book 3 and find we had picked up a different storyline. I soon got over it and in no time got caught up in another part of the story.

I do think Frodo is the essential, main character of the books even though he is missing for a period of time.

Brumie, the letter written by Tolkien was very interesting, wonder what he'd think of the current movie.

The more I think about the movie the more I think it doesn't give the right flavor of the books. I wouldn't have enjoyed the books if, as in the movie, it concentrated mainly on battles instead of the interesting characters, Frodo, Sam, Gandolf, Aragorn etc.

Hallie Mae

Hallie! We're not there yet! Some of use haven't gotten that far yet, and don't know what's coming. I have 40 pages left in book two, and now there's no surprise.

Not a big deal - but we should try to stick to the schedule Nellie has set out.

-eric

PS - Besides - If you don't watch out - I'll just edit your post! LOL

I am having a hard time today getting to any of the discussions... I can just imagine the roar we are going to hear from people.

I think I will buy the video when it comes out - even tho it is not perfect, it has beautiful scenes.

Yesterday I went to the Library and checked out a book titled Master of Middle Earth The Fiction of J. R. R. Tolkien by Paul H. Kocher. Good book wish I had discovered it a long time ago. On the back of the book it reads "....Middle-earth is a place of many marvels. But, they are all carefully fitted into a framework of climate and geography, familiar skies by night, familiar shurbs and trees, beasts and birds on earth by day, men and manlike creatures with societies not too different from our own. Consequently the reader walks through any Middle-earth landscape with a security of recognition that woos him on to believe in everything that happens. Familiar but not too familar, strange but not too strange - this is the master rubric that Tolkien bears always in mind when inventing the world of his epic." I like that! Tolkien always made me feel like I was walking in familiar places.

I love the conversation between Pippin and Merry about Gandalf.

Pippin wants to know if Merry got any information or news out of Gandalf. "....But you heard it all or most of it; and you were close by, and we were talking no secrets. But you can go with him tomorrow, if you think you can get more out of him...." Pippin then says "But he's close, isn't he? Not changed at all." Merry says "Oh yes, he is....He has grown, or something. He can be both kinder and more alarming, merrier and more solemn than before, I think. He had changed; but we have not had a chance to see how much, yet. But think of the last part of that business with Saruman! Remember Saruman was once Gandalf's superior: head of the Council, whatever that may be exactly. He was Saruman the White. Gandalf is the White now. Saruman came when he was told, and his rod was taken; and then he was just told to go, and he went."

"The irony of evil bringing forth good continues all through the epic (Nellie does that sound familiar - remember our discussion that when the Company ran into bad times then there were good ones?). The flight of Wormtongue to his master Saruman seems at the time of no particular importance. But later, when Gandalf is parleying with Saruman at Orthanc, Wormtongue angrily tries to kill him by throwing down at him the previous palatir which Saruman would never willing have parted with and which Gandalf could not have got by force from the impregnable tower. Strange are the turns of fortune! Often does hatred hurt itself!' Gandalf is moved to exclaim. This is the palantir into which Pippin surreptitiously looks that night, to be saved partly by Sauron's sadistic urge to tortue him in Mordor from having his mind read then and there by the telepathic Eye and all the strategy of the West runiously exposed. You have been saved, and all your friends too, mainly by good fortune, as it is called, remarks Gandalf, who does not believe in luck under any name. As it is called is reminiscent of Bombadil's if chance you call it. Theoden expresses the awe of a more ordinary mortal: Strange powers, have our enemies, and strange weakness!....But it has long been said: oft evil will shall evil mar. He too sees how the very qualities of evil are being turned against themselves for other ends...." (Master of Middle Earth, pg. 46 - 47)

I love this scene after Pippin looks into the ball "He lifted Pippin gently and carried him back to his bed. Merry followed, and sat down beside him. 'Lie there and rest, if you can, Pippin!' said Gandalf. 'Trust me. If you feel an itch in your palms again, tell me of it! Such things can be cured. But anyway, my dear hobbit, don't put a lump of rock under my elbow again! ...."

The closing scene.

"Away now, Shadowfax! Run, greatheart, run as you have never run before! Now we are come to the lands where you were foaled, and every stone you know. Run now! Hope is in speed.

"Shadowfax tossed his head and cried aloud, as if a trumpet had summoned him to battle. Then he sprang forward. Fire flew from his feet; night rushed over him.

"As he fell slowly into sleep, Pippin had a strange feeling: he and Gandalf were still as stone, seated upon the statue of a running horse, while the world rolled away beneath his feet with a great noise of wind."

By the way what does lol mean?

Hallie Mae, I think if the story had been nothing but a series of battles, then it would not be as popular as it is now. I doubt if I would have read it in that case. And yet in the movie, where one expects action, the battles are OK.

Eric, any thoughts on the chapters we are looking at now? There is some really good stuff in them.

And no 'editing' of posts! Otherwise I'll come over there with my wooden ruler and whack you one on the hands! Besides, isn't it forbidden? -editing not whacking.

FrancyLou, I hope that you are having an easier time getting into SN now. I tend to show up after all the problems have been fixed and seldom run into problems.

Brumie, I have that same book but haven't been able to find it. There are some good thoughts in there on the story.

I think the 'bad times' and 'good times' thing is still going on; but there seem to be more of the 'bad times' before anything good happens. For instance The Taming of Smeagol, The Passage of the Marshes, and The Black Gate is Closed are all chapters in which mainly bad times and things happen; and it is not until Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit that we and the hobbits are given any relief.

LOL means Laughing Out Loud.

Here are some favourite bits from The Taming of Smeagol. In a way the whole chapter is a 'favourite bit' and I particularly like the interaction between Frodo and Gollum (Smeagol).

When Sam remembers the elven rope when Frodo is in trouble on the cliff and then later when they use it to climb down, it seems to me that the rope is always just as long as it needs to be. Did anyone else notice that?

One piece I like is Gollum coming down the precipice:

Down the face of a precipice, sheer and almost smooth it seemed in the pale moonlight, a small black shape was moving with its thin limbs splayed out. Maybe its soft clinging hands and toes were finding crevices and holds that no hobbit could ever have seen or used, but it looked as if it was just creeping down on sticky pads, like some large prowling thing of insect-kind. And it was coming down head first, as if it was smelling its way. Now and again it lifted its head slowly, turning it right back on its long skinny neck, and the hobbits caught a glimpse of two small pale gleaming lights, its eyes that blinked at the moon for a moment and then were quickly lidded again.

Frodo is against killing Gollum.

'No,' said Frodo. 'If we kill him, we must kill him outright. But we can't do that, not as things are. Poor wretch! He has done us no harm.'

Do you think that Frodo is surprisingly firm in his dealings with Gollum?

When Frodo commands Gollum to swear by the Ring...

For a moment it appeared to Sam that his master had grown and Gollum had shrunk: a tall stern shadow, a mighty lord who hid his brightness in grey cloud, and at his feet a little whining dog. Yet the two were in some way akin and not alien: they could read one another's minds.

After Gollum swears by the Ring, Frodo seems to trust him; but Sam is still very suspicious. Do you side with Sam or with Frodo?

While I may be going along chapter by chapter, feel free to discuss anything that you find interesting in the chapters under discussion; but try not to go further if you can help it.

Brumie, wonderful info !

I hated the paragraph you have in the heading Nellie - I felt so bad for Frodo.

I agree with Sam 100% - Gollum is so creepy. My daughter in law read the Hobbit and was fasinated with Gollum - I'll have to read it to see how I feel about him. Right now I keep think, why of why would you trust him Frodo.

Everything is working perfect for me now... and I have had no complaints so far.

He is just as disgusting in the Hobbit, and a good deal more dangerous. Frodo has learned a lot about evil, Bilbo was an innocent. The two engaged in a game of riddles, which Bilbo won by accident. If he had lost, Gollum was preparing to eat him. (He probably would have anyway, but Bilbo put on the ring and escaped.)

I have noticed that Tolkien keeps his characgters pretty true to form. It has been a few years since I have read the books, but memory comes back as I read the discussions. I think Sam was worried about the safety of Frodo. He was always first and foremost loyal to Frodo. Therefore he was worried about Gollum betraying Frodo.

FrancyLou, Gollum is creepy and I think Sam is right in not trusting him. But Frodo knows that Gollum won't go far from the Ring and trusts that the promise made by it will keep Gollum 'honest' for a while.

SWN, I think we all agree that Gollum is disgusting and dangerous. I do think that he is one of the 'best' characters in the story as regards the way he is written.

Denjer, Sam is very concerned over Frodo's well being and safety and definitely distrusts Gollum.

But, like Frodo, I tend to pity Gollum, for he would not be like he is were it not for the Ring which preyed right from the first on his weaknesses.

For the nonce Gollum appears to be behaving in a trustworthy manner as this following piece from The Passage of the Marshes shows:

When he woke up the sky above was dim...Sam leapt to his feet. ...he suddenly understood that he had slept the daylight away, nine hours at least. ...then it also occurred to him that his master had been right: there had for the present been nothing to guard against. They were at any rate both alive and unthrottled.

Frodo is more realistic than Sam gives him credit for because he does realize that Gollum's promise will only hold for a short while. I think that Frodo hopes that Gollum will keep his promise just long enough to get them to the way into Mordor.

Frodo doesn't expect to come back from Mount Doom:

'I dont know how long we shal take to-to finish,' said Frodo. 'We were miserably delayed in the hills. But Samwise Gamgee, my dear hobbit-indeed, Sam my dearest hobbit, friend of friends-I do not think we need give thought to what comes after that. To do the job as you put it-what hope is there that we ever shall? And if we do, who knows what will come of that? If the One goes into the Fire, and we are at hand? I ask you Sam, are we ever likely to need bread again? I think not. If we can nurse our limbs to bring us to Mount Doom, that is all we can do. More than I can, I begin to feel.

Aren't the Dead Marshes an eerie creepy place? Utterly disgusting! I'm going to put a quote about the Marshes in the heading.

Don't you just love this scene.

"It was actually not long before Gollum returned; but he came so quietly that they did not hear him till he stood before them. His fingers and face were soiled with black mud. He was still chewing and slavering. What he was chewing, they did not ask or like to think.

"Worms or beetles or something slimy out of holes, thought Sam. Brr! The nasty creature; the poor wretch."

They were still in the marshes and they saw "broken grass-blades trembling in small air-movements that they could not feel."

"Not a bird!" said Sam mournfully. "No, no birds," said Gollum. "Nice birds!" He licked his teeth. "No birds here. There are snakeses, wormses, things in the pools. Lots of things, lots of nasty things. No birds," he ended sadly. Sam looked at him with distaste."

When I eat in front of my black lab he drools and it is long like a shoe sting. (LOL)

When it comes to disgusting, we have a new character just ahead that I think is the most stomach turning of all - the giant spider Shelob. To paraphrase Indiana Jones, "Why did it have to be spiders?"

SWN - I'm with you. But then, I think this is a scene of horror even Stephen King can't match. Not just because I loathe the critters, but also because of the darkness, the smell, the chill, the malice - Tolkein did a masterful job on this one.

Brumie, those are marvelous bits and tell you what kind of life Gollum has been and is living.

SWN, yes Shelob is even more disgusting than Gollum. But before we meet her after the 24th, we meet someone else new and this character is not at all disgusting.

I am speaking of Faramir, the younger brother of Boromir. What are your thoughts on him?

Hi Sheila!

Since I'm feeling sleepy right now, I'll come back in the morning with some more thoughts on what we are discussing.

Sysop and Nellie, mea culpa! It looks like I goofed, I mistook the "book 3 chapter 6-11" in the heading as the third book "Return of the King" and thought we were reading Part III. I never would want to spoil it for anyone, honest!

After all Frodo and Sam had been through so far, what a relief it was to meet Faramir.

Frodo shows nobility of character when he has compassion for Gollum.

Hallie Mae

P.S., I've had a problem getting in here for the past few days, guess they are doing over SN.

He is much like Boromir (of course they are brothers) but without Boromir's fatal flaw of lust for power. He is one of the most admiral (albeit not fully developed) characters we have met recently.

Faramir is my favorite.

Hallie Mae, you are forgiven

Do you know that the discussions have a new URL? You can read about it here in post 147:

Char cj "Problems or Comments Re Discussions, Chat or Web Site" 1/18/02 8:20am

SWN, Faramir is an admirable character, but too me he seems almost unreal because he is so 'good'; and maybe that is why he is not fully developed as a character.

FrancyLou, I imagine Faramir as being tall dark and handsome and he is so helpful to Sam and Frodo by giving them a time of respite from their toils and troubles.

A bit of a look at some things in The Passage of the Marshes: there are the lights from what Gollum calls the 'candles of corpses' and the dead faces Sam and Frodo see in the dark pools of water: grim reminders of that ancient war fought against Sauron at the time he lost the One Ring.

And there is their total terror as one of the Nazgul flies over.

They fell forward, grovelling heedlessly on the cold earth. But the shadow of horror wheeled and returned,passing lower now, right above them, sweeping the fen-reek with its ghastly wings.

Frodo is growing increasingly weary as they progress toward Mordor:

In fact with every step towards the gates of Mordor Frodo felt the Ring on its chain about his neck grow more burdensome. He was now beginning to feel it as an actual weight dragging him earthwards. But far more he was troubled by the Eye: so he called it to himself. It was more than the drag of the Ring that made him cower and stoop as he walked. The Eye: that horrible growing sense of a hostile will that strove with great power to pierce all shadow of cloud, and earth, and flesh, and so to see you: to pin you under its deadly gaze naked, immovable.

There is so much in this chapter that my 'few things' are fast becoming 'many things': I had forgotten all about Gollum's debate with himself over the Ring as he hovers near Frodo and Sam overhears it all. It is just like Gollum is really two people: Smeagol, who still has some goodness in him and who wants to keep the promise made to Frodo; and Gollum, who is totally evil and who would kill Frodo and Sam and take the Ring.

That is all for this evening. See you all tomorrow!

The other night I was watching TV staring Robin Williams in a Sci-Fiction movie. He is a doctor with a wife, who is a painter, and has two children. His children die in a car accident and then he dies. He appears after death and tries to help his wife. He doesn't succeed so he leaves. Then he appears in one of his wife's painting. There is one scene where he is walking in a very dreary land and he comes upon an area where there are heads floating. He walks where the heads are and they talk to him as he moves along. When I saw this it made me think of Tolkien - wonder where they got that idea!?

To me, Faramir is an 'empty' character, serving only to clarify Boromir's character. I simply can't get a feel for Faramir.

I wonder if Gollum is suffering a split personality, or possession. I suspect the former.

As the story goes on Faramir becomes more important. And you will appreciate him more.

Brumie, it seems funny that talking heads in that movie made you think of Tolkien -I can't recall any talking heads in LOTR. Maybe you had just read the piece about the statue of the king at the cross-roads and the head on the ground with the flowers forming a crown?

Sheila, that is an interesting thought that Faramir is an empty character -true, right now there is not much to him, except that he is scrupelously honest and fair and does not desire power.

FrancyLou, we will learn more about Faramir as the story goes in to the next and final book in February.

I wonder what Tolkien's purpose was in introducing Faramir at this point in the story?

Frodo, Sam and Gollum come to the Black Gate and it is soon obvious that is not the way into Mordor for Frodo. I have an interesting thought: if Gollum had not been with them this would have been the end of the road for Frodo and Sam, for they were unaware that there were other ways into Mordor. What do you think?

Gollum asks Frodo to give him the Ring. At first it appears that Frodo is going to ignore this suggestion. But he deals with it later when he tells Gollum that he is a danger to himself:

'You revealed yourself to me just now, foolishly. Give it back to Smeagol you said. Do not say that again! Do not let that thought grow in you! You will never get it back. But the desire of it may betray you to a bitter end. You will never get it back. In the last need, Smeagol, I should put on the Precious; and the Precious mastered you long ago. If I, wearing it, were to command you, you would obey, even if it were to leap from a precipice or to cast yourself in the fire. And such would be my command. So have a care, Smeagol!'

Are you as surprised as Sam at Frodo stern words and manner?

Sam thought that Frodo's kindness implied a fair amount of blindness.

Gollum knows a secret way into Mordor. Sauron can not see everywhere at once yet and he has conquered all the land around Mordor so he feels secure there.

But there are those Silent Watchers. They sound creepy don't they?

And we have a moment of humour as Sam says the poem about the oliphant -did you know that we call an elephant and oliphant in dutch?

We are coming to some chapters in which there is relief from the constant tension for both readers and the characters.

Well, maybe I got carried away in the movie! (LOL) This is the part I was thinking about in LOTR.

"Hurrying forward again, Sam tripped, catching his foot in some old root or tussock. He fell and came heavily on his hands, which sank deep into sticky ooze, so that his face was brought close to the surface of the dark mere. There was a faint hiss, a noisome smell went up, the lights flickered and danced and swirled. For a moment the water below him looked like some window, glazed with grimy glass, through which he was peering. Wrenching his hands out of the bog, he sprang back with a cry. There are dead things, dead faces in the water, he said with horror. Dead faces!.........They lie in all the pools, pale faces, deep deep under the dark water......Many faces proud and fair, and weeds in their silver hair. But all foul, all rotting, all dead."

I really should not have said "this made me think of Tolkien and wonder where they got the idea" but when I saw that scene in the movie it brought to my remembrance of the paragraph above.

Nellie you mentioned Oliphaunt here is what I found in one of Tolkien's letter (Letter #64).

"A large elephant of prehistoric size, a war-elephant of the Swertings, is loose, and Sam has gratified a life-long wish to see an Oliphaunt, an animal about which there was a hobbit nursery-rhyme (though it was commonly supposed to be mythical).

Perhaps we could say that Faramir, the son of the Steward of the Kingdom Denethor, recognized himself as a steward. Boromir wanted to be prince, later king.

Brumie, Tolkien's oliphaunt sounds somewhat like a mastodon without hair.

I find it interesting that an author can have a character appear in his story whom he has not invented and does not really want. Does the presence of Faramir slow down the story?

SWN, I think Faramir was content to be what he was: the son of a Steward who would be Steward in his turn.

Some thoughts on the next two chapters: Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit, and The Window on the West.

Frodo, Sam and Gollum leave the vicinity of the Black Gate and come into a country still showing signs of life.

Here Spring was already busy about them: fronds pierced moss and mould, larches were green fingered, small flowers were opening in the turf, birds were singing. Ithilien, the garden of Gondor now desolate kept still a dishevelled dryad loveliness.

Gollum brings two rabbits at Sam's request -which surprised me-and Sam makes them into a tasty stew with wild herbs.

When he goes to clean his pans Sam sees the smoke from his fire. Was it wise for him to have made a fire for cooking? Who or what has seen the smoke? The smoke has been seen and Frodo and Sam are 'caught'.

Four tall Men stood there. Two had spears in their hands with broad bright heads. Two had great bows, almost of their own height, and great quivers of long green-feathered arrows. All had swords at their sides, and were clad in green and brown of varied hues, as if the better to walk unseen in the glades of Ithilien. Green gauntlets covered their hands, and their faces were hooded and masked in green, except for their eyes, which were very keen and bright. At once Frodo thought of Boromir, for these Men were like him in stature and in bearing, and in their manner of speech.

I like the hobbit eye view of the battle of Men against Men.

Faramir wants to learn more about Isildur's Bane. But Frodo will not tell him what it is. Wisely so don't you think?

Isn't the scene where Sam gives Faramir a piece of his mind marvelous?

They learn that Boromir was Faramir's brother and that he is dead. Then Frodo fears that the rest of the fellowship is dead and only he and Sam survive.

They are taken to a secret hiding place behind a waterfall -the Window on the West of the title- and given food and rest. We get the first hint of some type of 'religious' ritual in the rising and facing west in silence.

Sam gives away the existence of the Ring. But as they prepare to defend themselves Faramir recapitulates what he said earlier, that he would not take it even though he found it lying on the highway.

Tomorrow we begin on the last five chapters of this book:

The Forbidden Pool
Journey to the Cross-Roads
The Stairs of Cirith Ungol
Shelob's Lair
The Choices of Master Samwise.

Lots and lots of excitement coming up!

I got a email to day with Lord Of The Rings Personality Test it is on my hotmail account so I can not get the URL for that one for you but here is another.

http://www.vista-ray.com/~matt/lotr/
I am: You are Legolas

The hotmail site said I am:
You are most like...

Aragorn

I think Sam is a little too quick in his action or very bold. Faramir said to Sam "Patience but without anger" he sure kept his cool. "Do not speak before your master, whose wit is greater than yours......Were I as hasty as you, I might have slain you long ago. For I am commanded to slay all whom I find in this land without the leave of the Lord of Gondor. But I do not slay man or beast needlessly, and not gladly even when it is needed. Neither do I talk in vain...." Sam got all embarrassed - he "sat down heavily with red face." I also think this tells something about Faramir.

Im finding some interesting things to ponder about in The Window On the West chapter.

One is Boromir's horn. Going back to when Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli put Boromir's body in the boat. "They combed his long dark hair and arrayed it upon his shoulders......and across his lap laid the cloven horn......" Faramir ask Frodo "Do you remember aught of special mark that the Lord Boromir bore with him among his gear?...." Frodo said "I remember that Boromir bore a horn..." Faramir said "You remember well......a great horn of the wild ox of the East, bound with silver, and written with ancient characters. The horn the eldest son of our house has borne for many generations; and it is said that if it be blown at need anywhere within the bounds of Gondor, as the realm was of old, its voice will not pass unheeded.

"Five days ere I set out on the venture, eleven days ago at about this hour of the day, I heard the blowing of that horn: from the northward it seemed, but dim, as if it were but an echo in the wind....

"I sat at night by the waters of Anduin, in the grey dark under the young pale moon, watching the ever-moving stream; and the sad reeds were rustling......Then I saw, or it seemed that I saw, a boat floating on the water, glimmering grey, a small boat of a strange fashing with a high prow, and there was none to row or steer it...

"An awe fell on me, for a pale light was round it....I was drawn towards it. Then the boat turned towards me...and floated slowly by within my hand's reach, yet I durst not handle it....as it passed under my gaze that it was almost filled with clear water, from which came the light; and lapped in the water a warrior lay asleep.

"A broken sword was on his knee. I saw many wounds on him. It was Boromir, my brother,dead. I knew his gear, his sword, his beloved face. One thing only I missed: his horn...."

Frodo told Faramir that what he saw was a vision. Faramir said it was not so. "The horn of Boromir at least returned in truth, and not in seeming. The horn came, but it was cloven in two, as it were by awe or sword. The shards came severally to shore: one was found among the reeds where watchers of Gondor lay, northwards below the infalls of the Entwash; the other was found spinning on the flood by one who had an errand on the water....And now the horn of the elder son lies in two pieces upon the lap of Denethor, sitting in his high chair, waiting for news....."

The boat caught my attention: "...For no boat could have been carried over the stony hills from Tol Brandir; and Boromir purposed to go home across the Entwash and the fields of Rohan. And yet how could any vessel ride the foam of the great falls and not founder in the boiling pools, though laden with water." I went back to Farwell to Lorien chapter to get a good discriptioin of the boat. "Three small grey boats had been ready for the travellers....These boats are light-built, and they are crafty and unlike the boats of other folk. They will not sink, lade them as you will; but they are wayward if mishandled...." I have a feeling that the boat is like the rope IT IS MAGIC. THEIR CLOAK IS GREY, ROPE IS GREY, AND THE BOAT IS GREY.

Brumie, how interesting that Faramir was not a character that Tolkien chose. How often writers say the story or character took a turn not planned by the writer. Something only another writer can understand, I guess.

I took the test and I am Sam. This pleases me as I consider myself a very down to earth person in spite of the fact that I love fantasy.

Hallie Mae

Took the test I'm Pippin!

I've been thinking about my post #368 saying that the boat was magic. I'm really not sure. But I meant to say that is was interesting that Faramir found the boat and the locations of the horn.

I got the impression that any thing from the elves had magical properties or at least what we would think of as magical properties.

I am most like Legolas. Not surprising as he was my favorite character.

One of my favorite quotes comes from Faramir and made a reference to Sam.

"Well Frodo, now at last we understand one another," said Faramir. "If you took this thing on yourself, unwilling, at others' asking, then you have pity and honour from me. And I marvel at you: to keep it hid and not to use it. You are a new people and a new world to me. Are all your kin of like sort? Your land must be a realm of peace and content, and there must gardners be in high honour."

FrancyLou, I put the personality test link up in the heading. Thank you for sharing it!

Brumie, where his master is concerned, I think that Sam will always act fast and at times without thinking of the consequences.

I think that Frodo was right: the boat Faramir saw with the body of Boromir in it was a vision because the actual boat had not survived going over the Falls, else they would not have found the two broken pieces of the horn which had been placed in the boat with Boromir's body.

Hallie Mae, I am another Sam. Maybe we are whom we like best in the story?

Some thoughts on The Forbidden Pool. Gollum is fishing in the pool below their hiding place. Does he know the Men and hobbits are there? Frodo saves Gollum's life -is this a second time? Interesting that so many folks have had a chance to kill Gollum and yet no one has; it is as if they all sensed that he has some important role to play; even if it is only to lead Frodo into Mordor.

Frodo is sent to fetch Gollum, who will only come when threatened by the Ring:

'Smeagol!'said Frodo desparately. 'Precious will be angry. I shall take Precious, and I shall say: make him swallow the bones and choke. Never taste fish again. Come, Precious is waiting!'

Faramir declares Frodo free in the realm of Gondor. And he warns Frodo against Gollum. But Frodo will not break faith with Gollum.

I much like Faramir's farewell to Frodo and Sam.

'Well, so we meet and part, Frodo son of Drogo. You have no need of soft words: I do not hope to see you again on any other day under this Sun. But you shall go now with my blessing upon you, and upon all your people. Rest a little while food is prepared for you.

See you all tomorrow

Hello Denjer, you were posting at the same time I was! That is a good quote. The trilogy is full of good quotes, isn't it?

Nellie you made a interesting point that Frodo believed that Faramir had a vision. I take Faramir at his word because:

The Deparature of Boromoir chapter "They rowed sadly along the shore...they passed the green sward of Parth Galen. The steep sides of Tol Brandir were glowing....as they went south the fume of Rauros rose...the boat departed...suddendly it vanished. Rauros roared on unchanging....But in Gondor in after-days it long was said that the elven-boat rode the falls...and bore him down through Osgiliath, and past the many mouths of Auduin, out into the Great Sea at night under the stars."

Breaking of the Fellowship chapter.

"So Frodo and Sam set off on the last stage of the Quest together. Frodo paddled away from the shore, and the River bore them swiftly away, down the eastern arm, and past the frowning cliff of Tol Brandir."

Another thing "across his lap they laid the cloven horn..." When Faramir saw it "was almost filled with clear water." I believe Faramir saw the boat. I like Faramir and believe he is a pretty sound character.

I looked at the map and followed the river and still hanging in there with Faramir. (smile)

Brumie, you present a good argument for the boat with the body of Boromir in it that Faramir sees in the River as being the real thing and not a vision.

It is strange that Boromir's horn was not in the boat: 'one thing only I missed: his horn' says Faramir. And later he says: 'The horn of Boromir at least returned in truth, and not in seeming. The horn came, but it was cloven in two, as it were by axe or sword. The shards came severally to shore: one was found among the reeds where watchers of Gondor lay, northwards below the infalls of the Entwash; the other was found spinning on the flood by one who had an errand on the water.' I wonder if the horn was returned for real to prove that the boat and the body were real?

Now a short look at Journey to the Cross-Roads. I think Frodo and Sam were lucky to have met Faramir and his men; for they have had some good meals and much needed rest, and have extra provisions to take on their journey.

Would you treat Gollum as kindly as Frodo does?

This is another favourite nature description of mine:

As the third stage of their day's march drew on and afternoon waned, the forest opened out, and the trees became larger and more scattered. Great ilexes of huge girth stood dark and solemn in wide glades with here and there among them hoary ash-trees, and giant oaks just putting out their brown-green buds. About them lay long launds of green grass dappled with celandine and anemones, white and blue, now folded for sleep; and there were acres populous with the leaves of woodland hyacinths: already their sleek bell-stems were thrusting through the mould.

Gollum is fearful in the open places and rushes through them as fast as possible. And there is the road which gives the sensation that invisible things were passing and keeping guard upon it.

The rushed march to the cross-roads:

For about an hour they went on, silently, in single file, oppressed by the gloom and by the absolute stillness of the land, broken only now and again by the faint rumbling as of thunder far away or drumbeats in some hollow of the hills.

They come to the cross-roads where by the light of the setting sun Frodo sees the statue of the old king and the sun shining for a moment on the flowers crowning the fallen head. This sight seems to give some hope to Frodo.

'They cannot conquer forever!' said Frodo. And then suddenly the brief glimpse was gone.

Now we come to what I consider to be the three most exciting chapters in this book, and maybe even in the whole story.

It is so quiet here, that I'm beginning to worry about saying something wrong -if I did do forgive me.

But what do you think: are the final three chapters of the Two Towers not exciting?

I think that Shelob certainly rivals Sauron for being evil. Doesn't that spider shape give you the creeps?

I'll be back in a bit with more questions but it is too dim to read anything in the book and it is just at that time of day when it is still too light to close the drapes and turn on the inside lights.

I am angry at Frodo for not listening to Sam. Why oh why!!!

I liked the scene where Sam confronted Faramir in defense of Frodo. I think Sam at last lost patience with others' lack of understanding of what Frodo had been through. I find great similarity between Sam and Faramir in their common trait of loyalty and service to the object of their devotion. Faramir recognizes that in Sam, and respects it. Each has committed 'his life, his fortune, his sacred honor' to the cause at hand. Each values service above self-agrandizement.

The scene of the stone head crowned with flowers touched me deeply. "They cannot conquer forever," also resonated within. It is one of those rare splashes of hope we often experience in gloomy times.

Nellie, I've been silent waiting for you to start the "Return of the King" - I'm afraid of goofing up by referring to something that hasn't happened yet. I finshed the last book a few weeks ago so a lot of that has dropped out of my memory, never mind events that happened in "The Two Towers." I have the last book handy for reference once you start commenting on it.

Hallie Mae

My reason for not talking too much is the same as Hallie Mae's... I am way ahead.

Hello everyone! We will be starting The Return of the King on February 1st.

In the meanwhile I'll provide some quotes from the final chapters of The Two Towers to refresh our memories.

Brumie, those two excepts from Tolkien's letters are interesting. From what he says it would seem that the story was as big a surprise to him in the ways it went as it is to us.

FrancyLou, yes, if only Frodo had heard Sam's shout of warning. But Gollum interfered didn't he by grasping Sam around the neck?

Sheila, good point about Sam and Faramir being similar in character -both are very loyal and stand up in defence of the things and people they love best. Do you think that Faramir is a kind man?

Hallie Mae, I hope you will stay with us and share your thoughts!

A few thoughts on The Stairs of Cirith Ungol.

It's scary that they are so close to the city of the Ringwraiths! And Frodo runs blindly right towards it.

Frodo felt his senses reeling and his mind darkening. Then suddenly, as if some force were at work other than his own will, he began to hurry, tottering forward, his groping hands held out, his head lolling from side to side. Both Sam and Gollum ran after him. Sam caught his master in his arms, as he stumbled and almost fell, right on the threshold of the bridge.

The Ring resists Frodo turning away from the bridge and Minas Morgul. But for the moment Frodo is still stronger than the Ring.

As they are climbing up the hidden trail and at a most exposed spot Frodo needs to rest. The Ring is heavy and more and more difficult to carry. But just as Gollum and Sam have persuaded Frodo to go on, there comes a flash of red light from Mordor and flashes of lightning in answer from Minas Morgul. Out of the city comes a host, an army clad in sable and at their head rides the Lord of the Ringwraiths:

a Rider, all black, save that on his hooded head he had a helm like a crown that flickered with perilous light. Now he was drawing near the bridge below, and Frodo's staring eyes followed him, unable to wink or to withdraw. Surely there was the Lord of the Nine Riders returned to earth to lead his ghastly host in battle?

Again Frodo has a desire to put on the Ring but moves his hand so that it touches the phial that Galadriel gave him, which he had almost forgotten and the Wraithking rides on.

That is all I have time for tonight for a favourite show is coming on soon.

I must wonder if Tolkein could have written this story without the words peril and perilous. He certainly uses them a lot!

Hi Nellie - Sorry for my absence in the recent week or two, but I've sped up too. It's hard not to with this book. It's just that good,

Hallie - I hope you didn't take what I had said too seriously. I wasn't really upset or anything, and all we knew was that he was captured, but not by whom, and not how. It didn't drain the excitement for me at all. You too Francy!

BTW - I was just kidding about the editting of the posts. I will only do that if a post uses objectionable language or is a pointed attack on someone else - and only in rare instances of that.

Shelob is a monstous character. I love it. I particularly like the description of the doors that are closed off with her webbing. Only the elven blade can cut through.

Interesting that Gollum's deceit manages to provide them with their only viable route into Mordor. As with Saruman, evil seems to mar evil again.

I took the test, and I too am Legolas! My favorite. Though I think I had to lie about my hairy feet... LOL

Can't wait to start discussion of Return of the King. The first five chapters are amazing.

-eric

Sheila, now that's a great observation! I think he also could have done little without the words 'black' and 'dark' and 'gloom' But according to Ursula Le Guin in her essay on Rhythm in LOTR in the book Meditations on Middle-Earth, repitition of words is part of the pattern in Tolkien's writing, as are the repitition of scenes and other things I can't think of right now.

Eric, we know how busy you are with all the changes that have been made lately and I know you would almost never edit anyone's post but your own.

Yes evil does mar evil in this story. Gollum figures he'll get back the Ring once Shelob is done with Frodo and Sam, but instead he gives them a way into Mordor -not one without dangers though as events show.

There is that stairway. That endless steep stairway. You get tired just reading about them climbing up and up until they can hardly move up one more step. Then follows the dark passage and more stairs.

I like Frodo's laughter when Sam tells him that one day people will tell tales about him to their children.

'It's saying a lot too much,' said Frodo, and he laughed, a long clear laugh from his heart. Such a sound had not been heard in those places since Sauron came to Middle-earth. To Sam suddenly it seemed as if all the stones were listening and the tall rocks leaning over them. But Frodo did not heed them; he laughed again.

And this is another of my favourite scenes:

Gollum looked at them. A strange expression passed over his lean hungry face. The gleam faded from his eyes, and they went dim and grey, old and tired. A spasm of pain seemed to twist him, and he turned away, peering back up towards the pass, shaking his head, as if engaged in some interior debate. Then he came back, and slowly putting out a trembling hand, very cautiously he touched Frodo's knee -but almost the touch was a caress. For a fleeting moment, could one of the sleepers have seen him, they would have thought that they beheld an old weary hobbit, shrunken by the years that had carried him far beyond his time, beyond friends and kin, and the fields and streams of youth, an old starved pitiable thing.

Then Gollum looks almost like a spider. Interesting analogy isn't it seeing as how he is taking Frodo and Sam to be killed by an evil creature in the form of a giant spider?

I'll be back in a bit.

sysop naw, I knew you wouldn't delete me.

That passage about Gollum, an " old weary hobbit", was a very touching, telling way of describing him.

Hallie Mae

It seems that Tolkien uses names to "show" us the good and evil in all of us.

Smeagol = good
Gollum = evil

FrancyLou, I like that. Smeagol is the good part and Gollum is the evil part. His are more separated than is normally the case, I would say. And it is the Gollum part that wins out in the end. I do wonder if things might have gone differently if Sam had not spoken so harshly to Gollum at that moment?

It strikes me that Gollum is perhaps the only character in the story who has both good and evil in him. Most of the characters are either totally good or totally evil depending upon which side they are on.

Shall we have a look at Shelob? I don't like spiders that much and any that find their way into my bedroom are squished into nonlife; but I do allow them to live outside.

That utterly dark cave gives one the shivers to begin with. And the things like tentacles touching them. No wonder Sam and Frodo move closer to each other and hold hands. Do they remind you of small children here? That is what they make me think of: small lost children holding hands because it makes them feel safer.

'I wish old Tom were near us now!' thinks Sam, as they hear the bubbling hissing noise. Isn't it interesting that he thinks of Tom Bombadil at that time?

Shelob is revealed to us in bits and pieces: first we hear her; we hear "A gurgling, bubbling noise and a long venomous hiss" and the creaking of her joints; then we smell her; "A reek came before it."; and by the light of Galadriel's phial we glimpse her eyes: "two great clusters of many-windowed eyes- ...The radiance of the star-glass was broken and thrown back from their thousand facets, but behind the glitter a pale deadly fire began steadily to glow within, a flame kindled in some deep pit of evil thought."

Frodo is brave and dares to face her with Sting in his hand and the phial shedding its bright light.

And we have that thick web blocking the way out which only Sting is able to cut! Then they are outside and free! Frodo is wild with relief. Do you find his behaviour believable?

And now we see the whole of Shelob:

"Hardly had Sam hidden the light of the star-glass when she came. A little way ahead and to his left he saw suddenly, issuing from a black hole of shadow under the cliff, the most loathly shape he had ever beheld, horrible beyond the horror of an evil dream. Most like a spider she was, but huger than the great hunting beasts, and more terrible than they because of the evil purpose in her remorseless eyes. Those same eyes that he had thought daunted and defeated, there they were lit with a fell light again, clustering in her out-thrust head. Great horns she had, and behind her short stalk-like neck was her huge swollen body, a vast bloated bag, swaying and sagging between her legs; its great bulk was black, blotched with livid marks, but the belly underneath was pale and luminous and gave forth a stench. Her legs were bent, with great knobbed joints high above her back, and hairs stuck out like steel spines, and at each leg's end there was a claw."

When Gollum attacks Sam to prevent him from warning Frodo about Shelob: Sam sure does fight fiercely. But then he is always fierce when it comes to his master being in danger or trouble. Isn't he?

It is time for me to go for tonight. See you all tomorrow.

Hi Hallie Mae!

Hi, Nellie!

Brumie, thanks for printing those letters, it's so interesting to read Tolkien's thoughts about his characters.

Hallie Mae

Brumie, I agree with Hallie Mae, those pieces from Tolkien's letters in which we glimpse his thoughts on the characters and the story are wonderful.

Tomorrow we move on to the final book in the trilogy. But for tonight I'll quickly look at the last chapter in The Two Towers: which is The Choices of Master Samwise.

Sam may be so devoted to his master Frodo that he tends to be blind to the feelings of others, but he is just what Frodo needs when it comes to a situation such as this, in which Frodo has been stung insensible by Shelob, who is preparing to drag him off to her larder, when...

"Sam did not wait to wonder what was to be done, or whether he was brave, or loyal, or filled with rage. He sprang forward with a yell, and seized his master's sword in his left hand. Then he charged. No onslaught more fierce was ever seen in the savage world of beasts, where some desperate small creature armed with little teeth, alone, will spring upon a tower of horn and hide that stands above its fallen mate.

Sam slashes her one eye and her belly. Then when she goes to crush him she impales herself on the elven blade Sting. That is a most apt name for a sword that becomes like some horrible sting to her, is it not?

Sam thinks that Frodo is dead. Is his reaction similar to the one that people undergo when they have been told by their doctor that they have but a short while to live? First anger, then despair, and finally acceptance: Sam undergoes all those things.

Then Sam takes the Ring and as he prepares to make his way into Mordor when he almost runs into a group of orcs. He puts on the Ring so they won't see him. It seems that all sounds are multiplied while Sam wears the Ring and he can understand the orc's language.

And he learns from the orcs carrying Frodo away to their tower that Frodo is not dead. But for the sake of the quest it was best that Sam believe that his master was dead, for now he has the Ring and can save the day.

The last words in the Two Towers:

"The great doors slammed to. Boom. The bars of iron fell into place inside. Clang. The gate was shut. Sam hurled himself against the bolted brazen plates and fell senseless to the ground. He was out in the darkness. Frodo was alive but taken by the Enemy."

Today we begin our discussion of The Return of the King, the last book in the Rings Trilogy.

Any first thoughts on the first five chapters?

Nellie, I'm in chapter 2 right now but I get the feeling of tension. I've got something to do so I'll finish up later.

To me two of the most interesting scenes are in Shelob's Lair (when Sam reminds Frodo of 'The Lady's gift! The star-glass!') and when Sam uses it in The Choices of Master Samwise.

"Slowly his hand went to his bosom, and slowly he held aloft the Phial of Galadriel. For a moment it glimmered, faint as a rising star struggling in heavy earthward mists, and then as its power waxed, and hope grew in Frodo's mind, it began to burn, and kindled to a silver flame, a minute heart of dazzling light, as though Earendil had himself come down from the high sunset paths with the last Silmaril upon his brow. The darkness receded from it, until it seemed to shine in the centre of a globe of airy crystal, and the hand that held it sparkled with white fire......."

The Choices of Master Samwise

"As if his indomitable spirit had set its potency in motion, the glass blazed suddendly like a white torch in his hand. It flamed like a star that leaping from the firmament sears the dark air with intolerable light. No such terror out of heaven had ever burned in Shelob's face before. The beams of it entered into her wounded head and scored it with unbearable pain, and the dreadful infection of light spread from eye to eye. She fell back beating the air with her forelegs, her sight blasted by inner lightnings, her mind in agony. Then turning her maimed head away, she rolled aside and began to crawl, claw by claw, towards the opening in the dark cliff behind. Sam came on. He was reeling like a drunken man, but he came on. Shelob cowed at last, shrunken in defeat, jerked and quivered as she tried to hasten from him. She reached the hole, and squeezing down, leaving a trail of green-yellow slime, she slipped in....."

Brumie, I like that when it is needed both Frodo and Sam remember and make use of the phial that Galadriel gave to Frodo. One thing I've wondered about and that is that the bright light doesn't attract any attention from other evil things around. I suppose it might scare them off. Wouldn't it?

Have you noticed that Merry and Pippin have similar experiences with Theoden and Denethor respectively?

Since I have not much time left for posting I'll elaborate on the above question and more tomorrow. There is so much happening in these first chapters!

Wasn't Sam the bravest when he attacked Shelom with sting? I just love his fierce protection of Frodo. His simple, honest loyalty endears him to me. Always did like straight shooters.

Brumie, another interesting letter - could you tell me the source, are they in a book?

Hallie Mae

Hallie Mae, Brumie, we could all wish for a friend as loving and loyal as Sam, couldn't we?

But now something I was planning to look at yesterday: the similar experiences of Pippin and Merry.

First a look at Pippin's first sight of Denethor:

"Then the old man looked up. Pippin saw his carven face with its proud bones and skin like ivory, and the long curved nose between the dark deep eyes; and he was reminded not so much of Boromir as of Aragorn."

Denethor questions Pippin about Boromir's death. He seems rather cold and harsh to me, yet Pippin is suddenly moved to offer his service to Denethor.

"Then Pippin looked the old man in the eye, for pride stirred strangely within him, still stung by the scorn and suspicion in that cold voice. 'Little service, no doubt, will so great a lord of Men think to find in a hobbit, a halfling from the northern Shire; yet such as it is, I will offer it, in payment of my debt.' Twitching aside his grey cloak, Pippin drew forth his small sword and laid it at Denethor's feet."

I will look more at Denethor later as I find him to be an interesting character. But now a look at Merry and King Theoden.

While Merry's relationship with Theoden is different than that of Pippin with Denethor -Theoden is a warm, kindly old man; and Denethor is more proud and cold -he offers his sword to Theoden in almost the same way as Pippin offered his to Denethor.

" 'I have a sword,' said Merry, climbing from his seat, and drawing from its black sheath his small bright blade. Filled suddenly with love for this old man, he knelt on one knee, and took his hand and kissed it. 'May I lay the sword of Meriadoc of the Shire on your lap, Theoden King?' he cried. 'Receive my service, if you will.' "

Pippin offers his service out of pride, and Merry out of love. Will they both be equally loyal to those they have made their promise to?

This is it for tonight. See you all tomorrow

Hi Nellie, I've finally finished enough of my "moving" chores to get back to the Seniornet. I have almost finished The Two Towers and will catch up soon. Thanks Brummie for the interesting excerpts of Tolkien's letters. I saw the film and think Sam is perfectly cast; his face seems to shine forth with all of Tolkien's description. Elizabeth

Hi ElizabethN, glad you are back!

Hello Elizabeth! It is nice to see you back with us! I'll hold off on any big post to give you a chance to catch up.

Hi Brumie!

I'll just touch a bit more on Denethor. He is an old man who is grieving for his son Boromir and has become cold and harsh. To me there are hints that he was not always cold in his nature; although he is and was a proud man.

I like how the tension between Denethor and Gandalf is descibed: "and he felt the strain between them, almost as if he saw a line of smouldering fire, drawn from eye to eye, that might suddenly burst into flame."

And "Denethor looked indeed much more like a great wizard than Gandalf did, more kingly, beautiful, and powerful; and older."

I felt sorry for poor Pippin sitting there caught between those two fierce old men. How about you?

"Pippin never forgot that hour in the great hall under the piercing eyes of the Lord of Gondor, stabbed ever and anon by his shrewd questions, and all the while conscious of Gandalf at his side, watching and listening, and (so Pippin felt) holding in check a rising wrath and impatience."

This is as far as I will go today. Brumie does Tolkien provide any insights into Denethor in any of his letters?

I felt very sorry for Pippin. I was so surprised when he offered himself in service to Denethor. I thought Denethor was jealous of Gandalf.

Also I felt Denethor was pretty evil because in a way he gave up his son in order to get the ring and its power. (Maybe Gandalf knew/sensed this).

Since the palantir has been mentioned I guess I'm not giving away any secret that Denethor relied on it to "see" in the future. What he saw made him give up hope completely. Possessing the palantir made him think he was superior to Gandolf or Mithrandir as he called him.

Hallie Mae

Hallie Mae, Goodness, I hope I didn't reveal anything too soon. Sorry. Anyway I went back to The Palantir chapter and reread some.

Pippin ask Gandalf "What are they?" Gandalf said the name meant that which looks far away. The Orthanc-stone was one." Pippin then said "Then it was not made - by the enemy?" The answer was no and was not even made by Saruman because it was beyond his art. Gandalf said that The Noldor made them. "Feanor himself, maybe, wrought them, in days so long ago that the time cannot be measured in years. But there is nothing that Sauron cannot turn to evil use. Alas for Saruman! It was his downfall....Perilous to us all are the devices of an art deeper than we possess ourselves. Yet he must bear the blame........We have not yet given thought to the fate of the palantiri of Gondor in its ruinous wars. By Men they were almost forgotten. Even in Gondor they were a secret known only to a few; in Arnor they were remembered only in a rhyme of lore among the Dunedain. Pippin asked "What did the Men of old use them for?" The answer "To see far off, and to converse in thought with one another. In that way they long guarded and united the realm of Gondor. They set up Stones at Minas Anor, and at Minas Ithil, and at Orthanic in the ring of Isengard. The chief and master of these was under the Dome of Stars at Osgiliath before its ruin. The three others were far way in the North. In the house of Elrond it is told that they were at Annuminas, and Amon Sul, and Elendil's Stone was on the Tower Hills that look towards Mithlond in the Gulf of Lune where the grey ships lie. Each palantir replied to each, but all those in Gondor were ever open to the view of Osgiliath..........Who knows where the lost Stones of Arnor and Gondor now lie......" I always wondered where the stones were or who had them. The definition in The Silmarillion says "Those that watch from afar...seven Seeing Stones..."

I need to finish this paragraph "Now it appears that, as the rock of Orthanc has withstood the storms of time, so there the palantir of that tower has remained. But alone it could do nothing but see small images of things far off and days remote. Very useful...that was to Saruman....Further and further abroad he gazed, until he cast his gaze upon Brad-dur. Then he was caught!"

One more thought and that is when Pippin is observing Gandalf and Denethor he asked a good questions "What was Gandalf? In what far time and place did he come into the world, and when would he leave it?" I've been wondering the same thing here lately.

Hi all! You have presented some interesting thoughts.

FrancyLou, While Pippin had a tough time telling the tale of Boromir's death with the two strong-willed old men listening, he has ended up with two new friends because of his offer of service: Beregond and his young son Bergil.

Brumie, I just found this bit about Gandalf -something he says to Denethor:

" '...But I will say this: the rule of no realm is mine, neither of Gondor nor any other, great or small. But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail in my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come. For I also am a steward. Did you not know?' "

Bold letters added by me for emphasis.

No you have not given anything away by revealing that Denethor has a palantir to look in; I already suspected as much.

Hello Hallie Mae! Hi Ginny who passed through!

In the Passing of the Grey Company, the remainder of the original fellowship splits up and Merry will go with king Theoden to Edoras and Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas will go down the Paths of the Dead with the sons of Elrond and the Rangers from the North.

We learn more about Eowyn and her feelings for Aragorn too.

These chapters are all so good that I wish there was more time to spend on each one. The weeks just seem to fly by!

I found the vieing for power of the two old men so very well told. It seemed to me that by encouraging Pippin rather than deferring to the status of Gandalf to tell about his relationship and experiences with his beloved son Boromir, Denethor is impressing his supremacy. (Putting Gandalf firmly in his place.)

It is then that Gandalf (as Nellie says) firmly reminds Denethor that he also is a steward. I read it as though Gandalf was saying that while Denethor was a steward of his own domain, he, Gandalf, had a wider stewardship. I thought he made this point ever so gently.

I thought Denethor's attitude in the discussion with Pippin, displayed deep emotions triggered by being faced with someone who had witnessed the death of his beloved son. His deep grief is manifest at one with both anger and melancholy.

I have just started re-reading my 1968 copy of Lord of the Rings and am trying desperately to catch up, so that I can make some relatively intelligent comments.

Hope it is all right that I have joined in.

Barbara Sherman

Hi Barbara S., as I once heard over a TV morning program "Come On Down!"

In my first reading of Minas Tirith I missed a couple of conversations between Pippin and Gandalf (Gandalf and Denethor too)and this brought a wider understanding as to why there was little love between Denethor and Gandalf.

Minas Tirith

Gandalf tells Pippin "Say nothing about Aragorn either, unless you must." Pippin said "Why not? What is wrong with Strider? He meant to come here, didn't he? And he'll be arriving soon himself, anyway." Gandalf says "Maybe, Maybe....Though if he comes, it is likely to be in some way that no one expects, not even Denethor. It will be better so. At least he should come unheralded by us."

Conversation between Denethor and Gandalf. I love this sentence that Gandalf says "Folly? said Gandalf. Nay, my lord, when you are dotard you will die...."

Denethor says "....And to him there is no purpose higher in the world as it now stands than the good of Gondor; and the rule of Gondor, my lord, is mine and no other man's, UNLESS THE KING SHOULD COME AGAIN." Gandalf replies "UNLESS THE KING SHOULD COME AGAIN?........"

Gandalf and Pippin speak later to each other. Gandalf tells Pippin he did his best when he spoke to Denethor about Boromir. Then adds "Still the Lord of Gondor learned more from you than you have guessed, Pippin. You could not hide the fact that Boromir did not lead the Company from Moria, and THAT THERE WAS ONE AMONG YOU OF HIGH HONOUR WHO WAS COMING TO MINAS TIRTH; AND HAD A FAMOUS SWORD. Men think much about the stories of old days in Gondor; and Denethor has given long thought to the rhyme and to the words of Isidur's Band, since Boromir was away."

Has it occurred to anyone else that we each and every one have palantirs? If you use the web at all, you have access to others' (clouded) view of the future, and we certainly use them to communicate with each other. I wonder what Tolkien would make of our world today.

Barbara, welcome, welcome! It is most alright that you have joined in; and with such a good post too!

Do you think that Denethor is hiding his grief behind his gruff exterior?

Brumie, good post on those important conversations. There is an interesting bit just before the part you quoted in which Gandalf tells Pippin that Denethor learned more from him than he thinks:

"Pippin glanced in some wonder at the face now close beside his own, for, the sound of that laugh had been gay and merry. Yet in the wizard's face he saw at first only lines of care and sorrow; though as he looked more intently he perceived that under all there was a great joy: a fountain of mirth enough to set a kingdom laughing, were it to gush forth."

Gandalf is full of mirth and to me Denethor is full of sadness. The two old men are opposites aren't they? But are they opposites in all ways?

When Pippin spends time with Beregond we learn more about Denethor:

"And the Lord Denethor is unlike other men: he sees far. Some say that as he sits alone in his high chamber in the Tower at night, and bends his thought this way and that, he can read somewhat of the future; and that he will at times search even the mind of the Enemy, wrestling with him. And so it is that he is old, worn before his time."

That implies that Denethor looks older than he is, does it not?

And we learn more about Faramir from Beregond. But I will go into that tomorrow.

SWN, you come up with such interesting thoughts! Our computers and the Web as a form of palantir that allows us to communicate with others far off and see into their minds.

Great post everybody! You've given me much to think about!

I didn't particularly notice Denethor's gruffness. You could be right, I will have to go back and re-read.

I realise that when I am asked to comment on stories, I am much more affected by characterisation and interaction between the characters, than I am in the plot. What is fascinating me is the interplay between four powerful men, Gandalf, Denethor, Aragorn and Theoden and how they will resolve their similarities and differences in reaching their common goal of overcoming evil. I haven't yet seen the film, to see how the producer has handled relationships.

NAMES: Don't you think that Tolkien is brilliant in the way he has tailored names in symbolic description? Starkhorn (the mountain), Snowburn (the river),Dimholt and Dwinoberg (darkness and association with the Paths of the Dead) and so on.

EROWYN: In the conversation between Erowyn and Aragorn, I think Tolkien shows a deep appreciation of the struggle at the time he was writing for women to break out o the "kitchen" syndrome. (I was involved in this) "What do you fear, lady?" he asked. "A cage". she said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire". Yet when Aragon bade her, she stayed. Here, it seems to me that Tolkien once again illustrates his insight into human emotions and the ambivalence that societal values (and love) place on people. Later Theodon recognises the feeling that Eowyn has for Aragorn and the fears she holds for his life. "You are grieved, daughter"......"What has happened?"

I do go on......! Grinning.

Barbara

Barbara, you just keep right on going, I'm enjoying your insight.

I love the interactions between the different characters also; and specially the interaction between Eowyn and Aragorn -on which you have already touched.

This comes just before the part where Eowyn speaks of her fear of being kept in a cage:

"For a while she was silent, as if pondering what this might mean. Then suddenly she laid her hand on his arm. 'you are a stern lord and resolute,' she said; 'and thus do men win renown.' She paused. 'Lord,' she said, 'If you must go, then let me ride in your following. For I am weary of skulking in the hills, and wish to face peril and battle.'

'Your duty is with your people,' he answered.

'Too often have I heard of duty,' she cried. 'But am I not of the House of Eorl, a shield-maiden and not a dry nurse? I have waited on faltering feet long enough. Since they falter no longer, it seems, may I not now spend my life as I will?'"

On Names: this piece on the arrival of the various allies to Gondor is full of wonderful names of persons and places:

There is Forlong, the lord of Lossarnach, and...

"The men of Ringlo Vale behind the son of their lord, Dervorin striding on foot: three hundreds. From the uplands of Morthond, the great Blackroot Vale, tall Duinhir with his sons, Duilin and Derofin, and five hundred bowmen. From the Anfalas, the Langstrand far away, a long line of men of many sorts, hunters and herdsmen and men of little villages, scantily equipped save for the household of Golasgil their lord. From Lamedon, a few grim hillmen without a captain. Fisher-folk of the Ethir, some hundred or more spared from the ships. Hirluin the Fair from the Green Hills of Pinnath Gelin with three hundreds of gallant green-clad men. And last and proudest, Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth, kinsman of the Lord, with gilded banners bearing his token of the Ship and the Silver Swan, and a company of knights in full harness riding grey horses; and behind them seven hundreds of men at arms, tall as lords, grey-eyed, dark-haired, singing as they came."

There are things that bring tears to my eyes; tears of joy not of sadness. One is when Faramir and his men are being attacked by the Black Riders in the air and Gandalf comes to the rescue: I'm cheering as hard as Pippin at that point. How about you all?

Hi Brumie!

I'm off for the evening. But shall be back!

Hi Nellie and Barbara. You all had interesting post.

After reading The Passing of the Grey Company I decided I would try this. To see how Merry, Gimli, and Legolas saw these strange riders - through their eyes and thoughts.

Merry

When the riders approached Eomer said in a loud voice "Halt! Halt! Who rides in Rohan?" The riders said "Rohan? Rohan did you say?" That is a glad word. We seek that land in haste from long afar." Then Eomer asked "Who are you? And what is your haste?" The reply "Halbarad Dunadan, Ranger of the North I am. We seek one Aragorn son of Arathorn, and we heard that he was in Rohan." Aragorn cried out "you have found him." He gives his reins to Merry, ran and embraced the newcomer. When Merry sees this he breathed a sigh of relief. He had thought that this was a trick Saruman might do since the king had a small company of men around him.

Gimli and Legolas

"Stout men and lordly they are, and the Riders of Rohan look almost as boys beside them; for they are grim men of face....(quotes Gimli). "But even Aragorn they are courteous....and have you marked the brethren Elladan and Elrohir? Less sombre is their gear than the others', and they are fair and gallant as Elven-lords; and that is not be wondered at the sons of Elron of Rivendell." Merry wonders why they come. Gimli replies "They answered a summons...word came to Rivendell, they say: Aragron has need of his kindred. Let the Dunedain ride to him in Rohan! But whence this message came they are now in doubt. Gandalf sent it, I would guess." Legolas said "Nay, Galadriel. Did she not speak through Gandalf of the ride of the Grey Company from the north?...."

The Grey Company (The White Rider chapter)

"Where now are the Dunedain, Elessar, Elessar? Why do thy kinsfolk wander afar? Near is the hours when the Lost should come forth, and the Grey Company ride from the North. But dark is the path appointed to thee: The Dead watch the road that leads to the Sea." (P.S. Elessar is another name for Aragorn)

I might have more later. Gotta leave for a while.

I'm enjoying your posts so much. Thank you all.

I like this interaction between characters. Remember when Aragron says to Halbarad "What is that you bear, kinsman? For he saw that instead of a spear he bore a tall staff, as it were a standard, but it was close-furled in a black cloth bound about with many thongs. It is a gift that I bring from the Lady of Rivendell......She wrought it in secret, and long was the making. But she also sends word to you: The days now are short. Either our hope cometh, or all hopes end. Therefore I send thee what I have made for thee. Fare well, Elfstone! And Aragorn said: Now I know what your bear. Bear it still for me a while.! And he turned and looked away to the North under the great stars and then he fell silent and spoke no more while the night's journey lasted."

Aragorn tells Eowyn he must take the Paths of the Dead. "Why will you go on this deadly road?" Eowyn ask. Aragorn replied "Because I must. Only so I see any hope of doing my part in the war against Sauron. I do not choose paths of peril, Eowyn. Were I to go where my heart dwells, far in the North I would now be wadering in the fair valley of Rivendell." For a while Eowyn was silent as if pondering what this might mean........"

HEY ELIZABETH, HI!

I tried to email you, Ginny, to your southbell email address but my note was returned. Will you please explain your question to me here? Thanks?

Brumie, I like that look of how the Rangers looked through different characters eyes.

Hi Elizabeth!

I just thought I would touch base for a moment; but I'm watching the opening of the winter olympics and shall be back in the morning with a longer on topic post.

Barbara and Nellie this is to add onto post #417 & 418. You all had great thoughts.

The King of the Golden Hall chapter.

The king says "Behold! I go forth, and it seems like to be my last riding. I have not child. Theodred my son is slain. I name Eomer my sister-son to be my heir. If neither of us return, then choose a new lord as you will.....Which of you will stay. No man spoke. Is there none whom you would name? In whom do my people trust? In the House of Eoro, answered Hama. But Eomer I cannot spare, nor would he stay.....and he is the last of that House. I said not Eomer.....And he is not the last. There is Eowyn, daughter of Eomund, his sister. She is fearless and high-hearted. ALL LOVE HER. Then the king sat upon a seat before his doors, and Eowyn knelt before him and received from him a sword and a fair corslet......" I think Aragorn reminded her of her" duty" because I believe he holds great respect and honors the duty she is called to do.

I'm moving on now. Gotta stuck on the Grey Company chapter. Much in that chapter. It seems that I heard somewhere that Tolkien's chapter are like a story. I believe that is true.

To me Tolkien was a master of characterization and imagery. One example is the whole chapter of The Muster of Rohan. He sets the mood of war so beautifully and gives me the feeling of sadness.

Merry has been asleep and awakened by a man shaking him. The man says "Wake up, wake up." Merry wakes up "came out of deep dreams and sat up with a start. It still seemed dark, he thought." Merry wants to know what is the matter. "The king calls for you" is the reply by the man. But "the sun has not risen yet" says Merry. "No, and will not rise today....Nor ever again, one would think under this cloud. But time does not stand still, though the Sun be lost. Make haste." says the man.

Putting on his clothes Merry looks outside. "The world was darkling. The very air seemed brown, and all things about were black and grey and shadowless; there was a great stillness. No shape of cloud could be seen, unless it were far away westward, where the furthest groping fingers of the great gloom still crawled onwards and a little light leaked through them. Overhead there hung a heavy roof, sombre and featureless, and light seemed rather to be failing than grown.

"Merry saw many folk standing, looking up and muttering; all their faces were grey and sad, and some were afraid."

Now they are ready to leave Dunharrow. "A single trumpet sounded. The king raised his hand, and then silently the host of the Mark began to move.........They passed down the long ranks of waiting men with stern and unmoved faces. But when they had come almost to the end of the line one looked up glancing keenly at the hobbit. A young man, Merry thought as he returned the glance, less in height and girth than most. He caught the glint of clear grey eyes; and then he shivered, for it came suddendly to him that it was the face of one without hope who goes in search of death.

On down the grey road they went beside the Snowburn rushing on its stones;........where many sad faces of women looked out from dark doors; and so without horn or harp or music of men's voices the great ride into the East began with which the songs of Rohan were busy for many long lives of men thereafter."

I guess I've posted (talked) too much but Tolkien brings out so much to talk (discuss) about. I promise to be quiet (really I do Nellie hehehhe). Secret be known I'm going to the woods for the day with a family member with our two black labs. The dogs love to run and play ball. I love to throw the ball over creeks and into creeks, and into the hills. Better yet I love to throw the ball when they are not looking and let them search for it. I love to see their tails wag when they are searching!!!!!!!!!!

Brumie, it is easy to get caught up in one chapter for a long time. I've heard that too about each chapter being like a whole story; and I think some of the chapters could make whole books just by themselves because there is so much in them.

I think that your post on the Muster of Rohan and the sadness of the preparation for war is excellent! And I hope you never stay 'quiet'; I enjoy your posts too much!

Have a great outing with your family member and the two dogs. If you're like me you will be reminded at times of the images in Tolkien's writings, specially those in the Lord of the Rings.

I want to look at The Siege of Gondor. This chapter also is filled with the imagery of war; and ,to me, gives us a good sense of the terrors of any and all wars.

The part where Pippin and Beregond see Faramir and his men harried by the Black Riders and Gandalf riding to the rescue is very exciting to read -I won't quote my favourite bit here because I put it up in the heading -and afterward I like the meeting of Pippin and Faramir.

"...and Pippin gazing at him saw how closely he resembled his brother Boromir-whom Pippin had liked from the first, admiring the great man's lordly but kindly manner. Yet suddenly for Faramir his heart was strangely moved with a feeling that he had not known before. Here was one with an air of high nobility such as Aragorn at times revealed, less high perhaps, yet also less incalculable and remote: one of the Kings of Men born into a later time, but touched with the wisdom and sadness of the Elder Race. He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."

Faramir tells of his meeting with Frodo and Gandalf is disturbed that Frodo is going to Cirith Ungol.

There is no love lost between Faramir and his father Denethor, is there? I get the feeling that Faramir was always the son who was never quite 'good enough'; who always stood in the shadow of his elder brother Boromir. I wish I could quote the whole conversation that follows between Faramir and Denethor, but I think that would be too much quoting -so I will content myself with bits and pieces.

" 'I hope I have not done ill?' Faramir looked at his father.

'Ill?' cried Denethor...'your bearing is lowly in my presence, yet it is long now since you turned from your own way at my counsel.'

...'If what I have done displeases you, my father,' said Faramir quietly. 'I wish I had known your counsel before the burden of so weighty a judgement was thrust on me.'

...'Do you wish then,' said Faramir, 'That our places had been exchanged?'

'Yes, I wish that indeed,' said Denethor, 'For Boromir was loyal to me and no wizard's pupil. He would have remembered his father's need, and would not have squandered what fortune gave. He would have brought me a mighty gift.'

More on the Siege tomorrow -this is another chapter to get caught up in. But I must go out for a walk and get some fruit and veggies.

I totally agree about Tolkien's skill in description and imagery. I was tearful which I read the two chapters of War and the gentle and strong Theoden's death. Tolkien also has the talent of all good writers in being able to apply subtle suspense that certainly has me driven to read on to see what happens. I am absolutely sure there is a piece (can't find it)with a subtle reference to Dernhelm, The Rider, that makes one suspect that there is something there not being told. And then later this is made clear when Merry discovers that Dernhelm is in reality, Eowyn.

Tolkien also plays love/hate relationships to their fullest. Beregond's love for Farimar is as touching as Eowyn's love for Aragorn and as gripping as Denethor's envy of Gandalf and denigration of Farimar. He again accuses Farimar of favouring Gandalf over himself and draws odious comparisons between the loyalty of his two sons. (Nellie, your post 246.) Think how hurtful this must have been in a culture that held loyalty and family fidelityin such high regard. And yet we find that when Farimar is sorely wounded, and even in Denethor's madness, he goes to extremes to demonstrate his concern for him.

I found Pippin's reunion with Merry very touching and the moral fibre of the two also.

I hurry on to finish to Chapter 10.

Brumie, where do you live. Your romps with the dogs sounds idyllic.

Barbara

I wont be around for a few days, but I have just finished Chapter 10 and wait expectantly till someone makes a post. Enough to say that I felt as though I was there and I could not put the book down even though my eyes were sore. My spine tingled and I think my mouth was open with expectation of what was to come.

Barbara/

Barbara I had the same feeling about "subtle reference to Dernhelm, The Rider, that makes one suspect that there is something there not being told. And then later this is made clear when Merry discovers that Dernhelm is in reality, Eowyn. " I tried to go back and find it but could not either.

Do you all begin to see why I think Farimer is so great. Maybe it will become more clear as you read on.

One of the reason's I think Denethor is evil - he wanted the ring: 'Yes, I wish that indeed,' said Denethor, 'For Boromir was loyal to me and no wizard's pupil. He would have remembered his father's need, and would not have squandered what fortune gave. He would have brought me a mighty gift.'

I was also very said at Theoden's death.

Barbara, hurry back! I enjoy your post(s).

Barbara, in the Muster of Rohan I found these bits about the young man Dernhelm who turns out to be Eowyn:

"A young man, Merry thought as he returned the glance, less in height and girth than most. He caught the glint of clear grey eyes; and then shivered, for it came suddenly to him that it was the face of one without hope who goes in search of death. ...

'Where will wants not, a way opens, so we say,' he whispered; 'and so I have found myself.' Merry looked up and saw that it was the young Rider whom he had noticed in the morning. 'You wish to go whither the Lord of the Mark goes: I see it in your face.'
'I do,' said Merry.
'Then you shall go with me,' said the Rider. ...
'Thank you indeed!' said Merry. 'Thank you, sir, though I do not know your name.'
'Do you not?' said the Rider softly. 'Then call me Dernhelm.'"

That last question by Dernhelm/Eowyn makes me think that she thought that Merry knew it was her. What do you think?

I can think of one more of the love/hate relationships: Legolas and Gimli -and it is a 'love' as in the friendship kind of love, relationship.

FrancyLou, I am beginning to see why you like Faramir -he is a true heroic type. But as to Denethor, I'm not sure yet if he is evil: I think he has been misled by Sauron by looking in the palantir that he (Denethor) has, and saying to Faramir that he essentially wishes him dead instead of Boromir, is an evil thing to say; but I don't think Denethor is truly evil in his nature. I don't think that he wants the Ring for personal power so much as he wants It to save the thing he loves most: Gondor.

Hi Brumie! Did you enjoy your time in the great outdoors?

I'm going to post some more on The Siege of Gondor in a new post so as not to make this one too long.

I was going to post a few more bits from the Siege of Gondor, but it is hard to choose which bits as there are so many good ones.

One of those is the return of Faramir from Osgiliath:

"Last of all he came. His men passed in. The mounted knights returned, and at their rear the banner of Dol Amroth, and the Prince. And in his arms before him on his horse he bore the body of his kinsman, Faramir son of Denethor, found upon the stricken field. ...

Prince Imrahil brought Faramir to the White Tower, and he said: 'Your son has returned, lord, after great deeds,' and he told all that he had seen. But Denethor rose and looked on the face of his son and was silent."

I wonder if Denethor regrets the things that he said to Faramir and wishes that he had not sent his only remaining son into danger?

Now we come to the siege of the city and some of the horrors of the war. The army of the Enemy goes around burning and killing; and great camps of black or somber red tents are springing up in the fields before the city. Trenches are dug and filled with fire. Great engines for the casting of missiles are prepared: these catapult missiles which burst into flame on contact into the city...and worse things:

"Then among the greater casts there fell another hail, less ruinous but more horrible. All about the streets and lanes behind the Gate it tumbled down, small round shot that did not burn. But when men ran to learn what it might be, they cried aloud or wept. For the enemy was flinging into the City all the heads of those who had fallen fighting at Osgiliath, or on the Rammas, or in the fields. ...But marred and dishonoured as they were, it often chanced that thus a man would see again the face of someone he had known, who had walked proudly once in arms, or tilled the fields, or ridden in upon a holiday from the green vales in the hills."

And the Nazgul are around again, sending fear into everyone in the city and disheartening the defenders of the city.

I'm skipping a whole bunch of stuff to get to the ramming of the Gate by the ram called Grond. Some great writing in that section. There are the drums: "The drums rolled." and "The drums rolled louder." and "The drums rolled wildly." and "The drums rolled and rattled". There is Grond:

"and in the midst was a huge ram, great as a forest tree a hundred feet in length, swinging on mighty chains. Long had it been forging in the dark smithies of Mordor, and its hideous head, founded of black steel, was shaped in the likeness of a ravening wolf; on it spells of ruin lay. Grond they named it, in memory of the Hammer of the Underworld of old. Great beasts drew it, orcs surrounded it, and behind walked mountain-trolls to wield it."

And we have the unstoppable progress of Grond: "Grond rolled on." and again: "Grond rolled on." and then the ramming of the Gate: "With a vast rush Grond was hurled forward by huge hands. It reached the Gate. It swung. A deep boom rumbled through the City like thunder running in the clouds. But the doors of iron and posts of steel withstood the stroke."

For a moment there seems to be hope: the Gate has survived the first attack by the great ram Grond, and maybe it will survive more. But then the Black Captain goes to work:

"Then the Black Captain rose in his stirrups and cried aloud in a dreadful voice, speaking in some forgotten tongue words of power and terror to rend both heart and stone.

Thrice he cried. Thrice the great ram boomed. And suddenly upon the last stroke the Gate of Gondor broke. As if stricken by some blasting spell it burst assunder: there was a flash of searing lightning, and the doors tumbled in riven fragments to the ground."

The Lord of the Nazgul rides in through the destroyed Gate, and all flee from his presence; all but Gandalf. And just as the Lord of the Nazgul draws his fiery sword to make an end of Gandalf, there comes the sound of a cock crowing, and...

"And as if in answer there came from far away another note. Horns, horns, horns. In dark Mindolluin's sides they dimly echoed. Great horns of the North wildly blowing. Rohan had come at last."

I think that is enough for today. There are a lot of things in this chapter I have not even touched upon.

Nellie: Great post! You already touched on the heads. To see heads of someone you knew would cause a feeling of despair and dread.

Yes, I believe Denethor regrets the things he said to Faramir. Pippin saw tears in his eyes. "Do not weep Lord" says Pippin. Sadly Denethor says "I sent my son forth, unthanked, unblessed, out into needless peril....." He is grieving.

This caught my eye.

Gandalf is talking to Pippin after they learn that Faramir has seen and told where Sam and Frodo are going. Gandalf muttered "Cirith Ungol! Why that way, I wonder?" He turned to Pippin "Just now, Pippin, my heart almost failed me, hearing that name.....So now for many days he will have his eye turned this way and that, away from his own land......Let me see: some five days ago now he would discover that we had thrown down Saruman, and had taken the Stone. Still what of that? We could not use it to much purpose, or without his knowing. Ah! I wonder. ARAGORN? His time draws near. And he is strong and stern underneath, Pippin; bold, determined, able to take his own counsel and dare great risks at need. That may be it. He may have used the Stone and shown himself to the Enemy, challenging him, for this very purpose. I wonder."

"I have looked in the Stone of Orthanic, my friends........I am the lawful master of the Stone, and I had both the right and the strength to use it, or so I judged.......Yes, Master Gimli, he saw me, but in other guise that you see me here. If that will aid him, then I have done ill. But I do not think so. To know that I lived and walked the earth was a blow to his heart, I deem; for he knew it not till now. The eyes in Orthanc did not see through the armour of Theoden; but Sauron has not forgottn Isildur and the sword of Elendil.....We must press our Enemy, and no longer wait upon him for the move. See my friends, when I had mastered the Stone, I learned many things....." (The Passing of the Grey Company - Aragorn)

I overlooked Dernhelm. Thanks

Yes, I enjoyed my day. Dogs tired!!!!!! My home is in Kentucky.

In regard to Dernhelm, does the following imply that Elfhelm knew who Dernhelm was?

"There seemed to be some understanding between Dernhelm and Elfhelm, the marshal who commanded the eored in which they were riding. He and all his men ingnored Merry and pretended not to hear if he spoke.. . . . . .Dernhelm was in comfot, he never spoke to anyone."

Hallie Mae

I was pretty sure they knew.

Brumie, Gandalf seems to be puzzled by the fact that Faramir told him that Frodo was heading for Cirith Ungol. But Frodo has to get into Mordor some way, preferably in secret, and I don't think that even Gandalf expected Frodo to march up to the Black Gate, knock on it, and ask to be taken to Mount Doom so that he could throw the Ring into the fire and destroy it. So why does Gandalf ask "Why that way, I wonder?" in reference to Cirith Ungol?

Denethor does regret what he said to Faramir and refuses to leave his son's side even when they come to call him to lead the defence of the City. Then slowly we see the madness of Denethor grow:

" 'The first circle of the City is burning, lord,' they said. 'What are your commands? You are still the Lord and Steward. Not all will follow Mithrandir. Men are flying from the walls and leaving them unmanned.'

'Why? Why do the fools fly?' said Denethor. 'Better to burn sooner than late, for burn we must. Go back to your bonfire! And I? I will go now to my pyre. To my pyre! No tomb for Denethor and Faramir. No tomb! No long slow sleep of death embalmed. We will burn like heathen kings before ever a ship sailed hither from the West. The West has failed. Go back and burn!'....

'He is burning, already burning,' he said sadly."

Servants come at Pippin's call and carry Denethor and Faramir to Fen Hollen and the place where the Stewards are entombed. There they lay Denethor and Faramir side by side on a marble table and...

"Then Denethor spoke in a low voice. 'Here we will wait,' he said. 'But send not for the embalmers. Bring us wood quick to burn, and lay it all about us, and beneath; and pour oil upon it. And when I bid you thrust in a torch. Do this and speak no more to me. Farewell!'

'By your leave, lord!' said Pippin and turned and fled in terror from the deathly house. 'Poor Faramir!' he thought. 'I must find Gandalf. Poor Faramir! Quite likely he needs medicine more than tears. Where can I find Gandalf?'"

On his way to find Gandalf, Pippin runs into Beregond who is guarding the Citadel gate. When Beregond learns of where Faramir has been taken he thinks that he is dead. Pippin reassures him that Faramir still lives.

" 'No,' said Pippin, 'not yet. And even now his death might be prevented, I think. But the Lord of the City, Beregond, has fallen before his city is taken. He is fey and dangerous.' Quickly he told of Denethor's strange words and deeds. ...

...'But, Beregond, if you can, do something to stop any dreadful thing happening.'

'The Lord does not permit those who wear the black and silver to leave their post for any cause, save at his own command.'

'Well, you must choose between orders and the life of Faramir,' said Pippin. 'And as for orders, I think you have a madman to deal with, not a lord.' ..."

Exciting isn't it?

Hallie Mae, yes I think that Elfhelm knew who Dernhelm really was -I agree with Brumie there. Only Merry seemed to be unaware that it is Eowyn he is riding with. But wouldn't he realize once they camped for the night and they went to the 'toilet' that Denhelm does it differently?

Good question you asked Nellie in reference to Cirith Ungol "Why that way, I wonder?" I"m still thinking about it and will probably "chew" on it for awhile!

"But," said Pippin. "But what?" said Gandalf...." "Gollum, said Pippin. How on earth could they be going about with him, even following him? And I could see that Faramir did not like the place he was taking them to any more than you do. What is wrong?" "I cannot answer that yet my heart guessed that Frodo and Gollum would meet before the end. For good, or for evil......Treachery, treachery I fear; treachery of that miserable creature. But so it must be. Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend....." I've asked myself what is meant by "But so it must be" is it an expression saying "so be it?" or if the quest is to be achieved by being lead by Gollum (for good/evil and trickery) let it happen? I know I'm not making myself very clear.

Brumie, Do you think Gandolf believes that Frodo and Gollum are destined or foreordained to be involved in the fate of the ring? He knows that good can overcome evil purposes. Thanks to the brave Sam, Gollum's treachery leading Frodo and Sam to Shelom was foiled.

Nellie, . Do heroes go "potty"?

Hallie Mae

Hallie Mae, Oh yea, I loved Nellie's remark about the toilet too! I got tickled when I read that. Cute! I'll think on your question. Sometimes it sure does sound like it doesn't it?

Brumie, I think that when Gandalf says 'But so it must be.' after expressing his concern about Gollum's possible treachery, because he knows that there is no way anyone -himself included-can help Frodo and Sam.

Hallie Mae, I figure even heroes are human and humans do have to go 'potty' every once in a while

Now a quick look at The Ride of the Rohirrim.

In this piece we get a first look at one of the Woses, the Wildmen of the Woods, who are offering to lead the Rohirrim to Gondor by a secret hidden way.

"There sat Theoden and Eomer, and before them on the ground sat a strange squat shape of a man, gnarled as an old stone, and the hairs of his scanty beard straggled on his lumpy chin like dried moss. He was short-legged and fat-armed, thick and stumpy, and clad only with grass about his waist."

As they ride into position for attack on the foes of Gondor, Dernhelm moves ever closer to the side of King Theoden. Finally they come to a halt and seem to wait for some sign to begin their charge. It comes in the form of a flash of light and a loud BOOM. At that Theoden calls out in a loud voice and blows a horn so hard that it 'bursts assunder'.

And the Riders sing as go: "And then all the host of Rohan burst into song, and they sang as they slew, for the joy of battle was on them, and the sound of their singing that was fair and terrible came even to the City."

Is it disturbing to you that the Riders are singing while they are killing their enemies?

I wonder if the sounds of singing "fair and terrible" would be any more frightening than the sounds of battle cries that one usuallly associates with such batttles. I will be back soon, but am following with interest all the posts. Barbara

I thought he should have know when he mounted the horse with her. Whether he rode in front or in back he should have touched her... she could not have been as muscular as a man (or as hard) and if a hand slipped or he leaned back his head....

THEODEN GIVES WORDS OF ENCOURAGEMENT TO HIS MEN

"Now is the hour come, Riders of the Mark, sons of Eorl! Foes and fire are before you, and your homes far behind. Yet though you fight upon an alien field, the glory that you reap there shall be your own for ever. OATHS YOU HAVE TAKEN: now fulfil them all to lord and land and leagues of friendship."

Then the men clashed spear upon shield.

MERRY IS READY

Merry thought now bitterly the truth when the king had said to him "in such a battle what would you do, Meriadoc? Just this he thought: 'encumber a rider, and hope at last to stay in my seat and not be pounded to death by galloping hoofs."

THEY ARE READY

Theoden takes a great horn from his banner bearer and he blew a blast upon it that it burst asunder and all the horns of the Rohan was like a storm upon the plain and thunder in the mountain.

Brave Theoden cried to Snowman and the horse sprang away. Behind his banner blew in the wind. The knights of his house thundered after him. Eomer rode there, the front of the eored roared like a breaker foaming to the shore, Theoden could not be overtaken. His golden shield was uncovered, and lo! it shone like an image of the sun. FOR MORNING CAME, MORNING AND A WIND FROM THE SEA, AND DARKNESS WAS REMOVED, and the hosts of Mordor wailed and terror took them.

"for they sang as they slew" I think the idea of singing or shouting when on the attack is meant to sustain the warriors courage and unnerve the enemy

Hallie Mae

Hallie Mae, I agree with you too!

Barbara, I think the singing would sound less frightening to onlookers -if there can be such a thing in the midst of a battle- than the usual battle sounds.

Have you tried imagining what the singing of the Riders might sound like? I tend to imagine it sounding like the singing the fans do at soccer games, like the ones from England that my dad watches on Saturday morning.

FrancyLou, should Merry have known Dernhelm was Eowyn just by sitting in front of her on her horse? Don't forget she was wearing chainmail and I assume that she would have bound her breasts so that they were not very obvious even to the sense of touch. Besides, we seem as surprised as Merry when Dernhelm is revealed to be Eowyn on the field of battle.

Brumie, war and battle all sounds so much more heroic and grand in this story than our own modern warfare, doesn't it?

Hallie Mae, yes the singing would help to keep up courage and discourage the enemy.

Now some bits from The Battle of the Pelennor Fields -one of the best chapters in the whole story, in my opinion.

First we have the coming of the Nazgul on his winged monstrous steed and Snowmane's fall on top of Theoden.

"But Snowmane mad with terror stood up on high, fighting with the air, and then with a great scream he crashed upon his side: a black dart had pierced him. The king fell beneath him. ...

The great shadow descended like a falling cloud. And behold! it was a winged creature: if bird, then greater than all other birds, and it was naked, and neither quill nor feather did it bear, and its vast pinions were as webs of hide between horned fingers; and it stank. ...Down, down it came, and then, folding its fingered webs, it gave a croaking cry, and settled upon the body of Snowmane, digging in its claws, stooping its long naked neck. ...

Upon it sat a shape, black-mantled, huge and threatening. A crown of steel he bore, but between the rim and robe naught was there to see, save only a deadly gleam of eyes: the Lord of the Nazgul. ...A great black mace he wielded. ...

Yet Theoden was not utterly forsaken. ...Yet one stood there still: Dernhelm the young, faithful beyond fear; and he wept, for he had loved his lord as a father. ...Merry crawled on all fours like a dazed beast, and such a horror was on him that he was blind and sick."

I think this is enough for this evening. The next bit is one that gets to me on some emotional level and always brings me to tears. Someone being heroic, whether in a story or in real life, simply overwhelms me with joy and sadness combined and hence the tears.

I'm glad that you are all reading along with me and sharing your thoughts.

Nellie, there was a time when wars and battles were glorified in song and story. Chesterton wrote "For the great Gaels of Ireland Are the men that God made mad, For all their wars are merry and all their songs are sad."

Oh yes, the next part is very vivid. Merry proved "what use" a hobbit could be. Have you noticed how Tolkien shows us what brave souls the hobbits were? All of them, Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin were put in horrendous situations throughout the story and came through splendidly.

Hallie Mae

Hallie Mae, from all the war movies I see advertised lately I think that war is still being glorified, at least in the movies.

I love it that each of the hobbits proves himself to be worthy of being called a Hero by facing and dealing with those horrendous situations.

Is it Eowyn who gives Merry the courage to attack the Lord of the Nazgul?

"Then Merry heard of all sounds in that hour the strangest. It seemed that Dernhelm laughed, and the clear voice was like the ring of steel. 'But no living man am I! you look upon a woman. Eowyn I am, Eomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.' ...

Very amazement for a moment conquered Merry's fear. He opened his eyes and the blackness was lifted from them. There some paces from him sat the great beast, and all seemed dark about it, and above it loomed the Nazgul Lord like a shadow of despair. A little to the left facing them stood she whom he had called Dernhelm. ...

Eowyn it was, and Dernhelm also. For into Merry's mind flashed the memory of the face that he saw at the riding from Dunharrow: the face of one that goes seeking death, having no hope. Pity filled his heart and great wonder, and suddenly the slow-kindled courage of his race awoke. He clenched his hand. She should not die, so fair, so desperate! At least she should not die alone, unaided.

The face of their enemy was not turned towards him, but still he hardly dared to move, dreading lest the deadly eyes should fall on him. Slowly, slowly he began to crawl aside....

Suddenly the great beast beat its hideous wings, and the wind of them was foul. Again it leaped into the air, and then swiftly fell down upon Eowyn, shrieking, striking with beak and claw.

Still she did not blench: maiden of the Rohirrim, child of kings, slender but as a steel-blade, fair yet terrible. A swift stroke she dealt, skilled and deadly. The outstretched neck she clove assunder, and the hewn head fell like a stone. ...

Out of the wreck rose the Black Rider...With a cry of hatred that stung the very ears like venom he let fall his mace. Her shield was shivered in many pieces, and her arm was broken; she stumbled to her knees. He bent over her like a cloud, and his eyes glittered; he raised his mace to kill.

But suddenly he too stumbled forward with a cry of bitter pain...Merry's sword had stabbed him from behind...

Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her. The sword broke sparkling into many shards. The crown rolled away with a clang. Eowyn fell forward upon her fallen foe. But lo! the mantle and hauberk were empty. Shapeless they lay now on the ground, torn and tumbled; and a cry went up in the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing, passing with the wind, a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world."

I'm probably getting carried away here with how much I am sharing, but I love that piece. I did 'snip' somethings out.

One act of heroism can sometimes inspire another. True, isn't it?

That was a beautiful piece. And yes it is amazing how strong emotion and loyalty can motivate great deeds. Merry was almost unconscious, yet he was able to gather his strength to protect Eowyn who he had grown to like. No more than like, to love as Dernhelm.

I have a very clear picture of Merry, in fact most of the Hobbits. And I can visualise how handy they would be in battle, attacking as they would from their low position. This segment of the battle is so well told, that it involves one totally. I too love this piece for its imagery as well as for the portrayal of the courage of Eowyn who proves herself to be as brave as the men of royal blood. No namby pamby maiden is she! Sometimes I think that Tolkien was a bit of a feminist.

I am trying to keep up, but being summer here there is much to do outside as well as trying to get in a swim on the warmer days.

Barbara

Here is my favorite:

"And then wonder took him, and a great JOY; and he cast his sword up in the sunlight and sang as he caught it. And all eyes followed his gaze, and behold! upon the foremost ship a great standard broke, and the wind displayed it as she turned towards the Harlond. There flowered a White Tree, and that was for Gondor; but Seven Stars were about it, and a high crown above it, the signs of Elendil that no lord had borne for years beyond count. And the stars flamed in the sunlight, for they were wrought of gems by Arwen daughter of Elrond; and the crown was bright in the morning, for it was wrought of mithril and gold.

"Thus came Aragorn son of Arathorn, Elessar, Isidur's heir, out of the Paths of the Dead, borne upon a wind from the Sea to the kingdom of Gondor; and the mirth of the Rohirrim was a torrent of laughter and a flashing of swords, and the JOY and wonder of the City was a music of trumpets and a ringing of bells. But the hosts of Mondor were seized with bewilderment, and a great wizardry it seemed to them that their own ships should be filled with their foes; and a black dread fell on them, knowing that the tides of fate had turned against them and their dom was at hand."

Nellie, the "slow kindled courage of his race", she inspired him but he had the "right stuff" inside all along.

Brumie, the Tolkien letter was so interesting. No one knows how they'd behave under dire circumstances. We'd all like to think we would be courageous, right? I'm sure Tolkien saw many instances of bravery from the English people who endured the Battle of Britain and understood how ordinary people can be capable of extraordinary deeds.

That's a beautiful passage of the book, I don't have the best imagination in the world but I think I can visualize the scene, it was so well written.

Barbara from down under, summer (sigh), enjoy! Right about now we all are fidgety waiting for spring to have sprung.

Hallie Mae

Barbara, you've got summer and we still have winter -I think I live furthest north of our little group and will have winter the longest. I like the thought of Tolkien being a bit of a feminist -I do like Eowyn because she is strong and a warrior, and it seems that she was trained as a warrior.

Brumie, another interesting letter. And the coming of Aragorn -another much loved piece

Hallie Mae, I don't think any of know how we will behave under dire circumstances; we can only hope that like Merry our slow courage will be kindled when the time comes for us to need it.

Now a rather quick look at the madness of Denethor...no I think I will save it until in the morning because it is too close to the time when I shut down for the night.

Where in the north do you live Nellie?

I was away for the month of January so you may already have discussed that in the back of Vol III is an Appendix B with a month by month short discription of what is happening to each group in the story just at that time.

Elizabeth, I live in Canada -in northern Alberta.

We are not as far as any of the Appendices yet.

I'm skipping over a fair bit of stuff as I go along because the month of February is fast passing by and I haven't even gotten back to Sam and Frodo. So I will mainly share favourite pieces from various chapters: first from The Pyre of Denethor:

" 'He will not wake again,' said Denethor. 'Battle is vain. Why should we wish to live longer? Why should we not go to death side by side?'

'Authority is not given to you, Steward of Gondor, to order the hour of your death,' answered Gandalf. 'And only the heathen kings, under the domination of the Dark Power, did thus, slaying themselves in pride and despair, murdering their kin to ease their own death.'"

But Denethor is under the dominance of the Dark Power, as we find out:

"Then suddenly Denethor laughed. He stood up tall and proud again, and stepping swiftly back to the table he lifted from it the pillow on which his head had lain. Then coming to the doorway he drew aside the covering, and lo! he had between his hands a palantir. And as he held it up, it seemed to those that looked on that the globe began to glow with an inner flame, so that the lean face of the Lord was lit as with a red fire, and it seemed cut out of hard stone, sharp with black shadows, noble, proud, and terrible. His eyes glittered."

Later Gandalf guesses at what happened as Denethor used the palantir more and more.

" ...'But his wisdom failed; and I fear that as the peril of his realm grew he looked in the Stone and was deceived: far too often, I guess, since Boromir departed. He was too great to be subdued to the will of the Dark Power, he saw nonetheless only those things which that Power permitted him to see. The knowledge which he obtained was, doubtless, often of service to him; yet the vision of the great might of Mordor that was shown to him fed the despair of his heart until it overthrew his mind.'"

I will continue later -any thoughts on this section and on later sections are very welcome.

Nellie you came on as I made my post.

To me the most gruesome part is when "Gandalf in gref and horror turned his face away and closed the door. For a while he stood in thought, silent upon the threshold, while those outside heard the greedy roaring of the fire within. And then Denethor gave a great cry, and afterwards spoke no more, nor was ever again seen by mortal men."

I bet it is cold in Canada. Our cold front comes from Canada!!!!!

I looked up Appendix B, 3019 in the back of my paperback book and it has a month by month account. What an enormous effort was put into creating LOTR!

I just re-read part of the chapter on Denethor's demise. The palantir was his undoing, he only saw the dark deeds that happened, such as Boromir's death. How it must have hurt Pippin to hear Denethor call him a spy for Gandolf.

Hallie Mae

I agree with you Hallie Mae about the enormous amount of effort he put into his work. It seems like I read (internet) that he wants his readers to read it like a history book. When I read I'll say to myself "okay, where can I find out more about this character, thing, or whatever?" I'll look in the appendix or one of my reference books. So much in his writing.

Today I was reading Beowulf and I discovered this.

"....A funeral pyre was then prepared, effulgent gold brought out from the hoard. The pride and prince of the Shieldings lay awaiting the flame. Everywhere there were blood-plastered coats of mail. The prye was heaped with boar-shaped helmets forged in gold, with the gashed corpses of well-born Danes - many had fallen. Then Hildeburh ordered her own son's body be burnt with Hanef's, the flesh on his bones to sputter and blaze.....Carcass flame swirled and fumed, they stood around the burial mound and howled as heads melted, crusted gashes spattered and ran bloody matter. The glutton element flamed and consumed the dead of both sides...."

Brumie, I've seen that book and a number of others by Christopher Tolkien in the bookstore. They all seem very interesting.

Hallie Mae, it is awe inspiring when you realize how much work went into creating this epic story.

I think it did hurt Pippin to be called a spy and I think it hurt too for him to see Denethor's madness.

Now a look at some of the happenings in The Houses of Healing.

Pippin finds Merry wandering along in a dark dream. Merry seems to be shell-shocked, doesn't he? I like how caring Pippin is for his friend:

" 'I'd better wait here,' thought Pippin. So he let Merry sink gently down on to the pavement in a patch of sunlight, and then he sat down beside him, laying Merry's head in his lap. He felt his body and limbs gently, and took his friend's hands in his own. The right hand felt icy to the touch."

Merry, Eowyn, and Faramir are taken to the Houses of Healing. The healers are wise in their craft but are unable to help those who are overcome by the Black Shadow which came from the Nazgul.

"And those who were stricken with it fell slowly into an ever deeper dream, and then passed to silence, and so died."

They watch and wait and no one, not even Gandalf can do anything to help. Then an old woman by name of Ioreth, wishes there were still kings in Gondor for "The hands of the king are the hands of a healer. And so the rightful king could ever be known."

Aragorn has skills in healing as we know from when he helped Frodo at the time they were attacked by the Black Riders and Frodo was stabbed by the morgul knife. Things tie into each other in the story. There are other things that tie together too: for example, the incident at the Barrow Downs and Tom Bombadil gives knives from the barrow to Merry and Pippin to use as swords, which leads to Merry stabbing the Lord of the Nazgul in the leg...and the knife was made just for that purpose, wasn't it?

Aragorn comes in secret to the Houses of Healing.

But more tomorrow because the Olympics are distracting me too much.

Brumie, you do find interesting books! And that quote from Beowulf fits what we had just been looking on in The Pyre of Denethor.

Nellie, I totally missed the connection with the knives Tom Bombadil provided. Thanks.

To me Aragorn has many qualities and one is his forbearance. It is shown here.

"Now as the sun went down Aragorn and Eomer and Imrahil drew near the City with their captains and knights; and when they came before the Gate Aragorn said:

"Behold the Sun setting in a great fire! It is a sign of the end and fall of many things, and a change in the tides of the world. But this City and realm has rested in the charge of the Stewards for many longs years, and I fear that if I enter it unbidden, then doubt and debate may arise, which should not be while this war is fought. I will not enter in, nor make any claim, until it be seen whether we or Mordor shall prevail."

Eomer said "Already you have raised the banner of the Kings and displayed the tokens of Elendil's House....." Aragorn says "No, but I deem the time unripe......"

Aragorn sure didn't want to "push himself" on anyone.

Nellie, isn't that typical of Tolkien's eye for detail, to have Merry's sword tied in with events early on in the book?

Brumie, what is fascinating to me is the emergence of Aragorn's person throughout the journey, from the mysterious Strider with no particular powers to a noble King who has powers akin to Elrond's.

I must say participating in this discussion has really opened the book up in ways I never imagined. I appreciate it so much more now.

Hallie Mae.

Hallie Mae, I agree with you about Aragorn. LOTR is full of mystery.

Sheila, I'm glad to see you here! I thought that the two incidents tying together like that shows that no words of Tolkien's are wasted; even if at first you may think that they are.

And that goes with Tolkien's eye for detail, as Hallie Mae points out.

Brumie, I like Aragorn's forbearance and I like his kindness. I like the way that who and what he truly is, is slowly revealed through the story.

I like the gentle way he heals those who have been affected by the Black Breath. I also like the way the herb athelas smells differently each time he uses it. When he heals Faramir the herb had a "fragrance like a memory of dewy mornings of unshadowed sun in some land of which the fair world in Spring is itself but a fleeting memory."

And when he heals Eowyn: "...as the sweet influence of the herb stole about the chamber it seemed to those who stood by that a keen wind blew through the window, and it bore no scent, but was an air wholly fresh and clean and young, as if it had not before been breathed by any living thing and came new-made from snowy mountains high beneath a dome of stars, or from shores of silver far away washed by seas of foam."

And finally when he heals Merry: "And when the fragrance of athelas stole through the room, like the scent of orchards, and of heather in the sunshine full of bees..."

Now on to the Last Debate. First four old friends meet once more: Legolas, Gimli, Merry and Pippin. And Legolas sees the gulls and knows he will no longer be content to stay in Middle-Earth.

What do you all think of the plan to make Sauron believe that one of them has the One Ring by marching out to attack Mordor?

Good post Nellie.

Thanks

Nellie, going back to your question "What do you all think of the plan to make Sauron believe that one of them has the one Ring by marching out to attack Mordor?" I believe it is a good strategy. I've started reading book six and have some idea what is going on. Here is my thinking - by using this strategy might distract Sauron and help Sam and Frodo to drop the Ring into Mt. Doom. I haven't read what really happens but I think it will work.

This caught my eyes when Legolas cried "Gull! A wonder they are to me and a trouble to my heart. Never in all my life had I met them, until we came to Pelargir.....Then I stood still, forgetting war in Middle-earth; for their wailing voices spoke to me of the Sea. The Sea! Alas! I have not yet beheld it. But deep in the hearts of all my kindred lies the sea-longing, which it is perilous to stir. Alas! for the gulls. No peace shall I have again under beech or under elm."

Gandalf (The White Rider chapter) he delivers couple of messages one is to Legolas.

"Legolas Greenleaf long under tree In joy thou hast lived. Beware of the Sea! If thou hearest the cry of the gull on the shore, Thy heart shall then rest in the forest no more."

Gimli says to Legolas "Say not so......" Merry thinks "dull and dreary." He adds "You must not go to the Havens Legolas. There will always be some folk, big or little, and even a few wise dwarves like Gimli, who need you." Sweet!

The second message was to Aragorn which I thought interesting because now I know the rest of the story.

"Where now are the Dunedain, Elessar, Elessar? Why do thy kinsfolk wander afar? Near is the hour when the Lost should come forth, And the Grey Company ride from the North. But dark is the path appointed for thee: The Dead watch the road that leads to the Sea."

Thanks for mentioning the different scents of athelas healing different people. My attention was slightly triggered when I was reading that passage, but uncomprehendingly, I hurried on. You are all adding much enjoyment to my reading of this wonderful work.

Gandalf's reason for marching on Mordor is that they should be the "bait" that lures Sauron's attention away from Frodo and Sam. "His eye is now straining towards us, blind almost to all else that is moving. So we must keep it. Therein lies all our hope." "But we must at all costs keep his Eye from his true peril. We cannot achieve victory by arms, but by arms, we can give the Ring=bearer his only chance, frail though it be."

Hallie Mae

Brumie, I think their plan was good strategy, and as Hallie Mae points out they were bait to attract Sauron's attention and keep him from seeing the true danger.

Now a look at a few highlights from The Black Gate Opens -and then we must get into Book 6 where Sam and Frodo await us.

Aragorn, as King Elessar, marches with a few thousand men on Mordor and all too soon arrives at the Black Gate which is "fast closed" - but ...

"No choice was left them but to play their part to its end. Therefore Aragorn set the host in such array as could best be contrived; and they were drawn up on two great hills of blasted stone and earth that the orcs had piled up in years of labour. ...When all was ordered, the Captains rode forth towards the Black Gate with a great guard of horsemen and the banner and heralds and trumpeters. There was Gandalf as chief herald, and Aragorn with the sons of Elrond, and Eomer of Rohan, and Imrahil; and Legolas and Gimli and Peregrin were bidden to go also, so that all the enemies of Mordor should have a witness."

The heralds call for Sauron to come out and face justice. However, Sauron has some cruelty in mind for them -there is another exciting piece coming up, and I like how utterly evil the evil beings in this story are.

"But Sauron had already laid his plans, and he had a mind first to play these mice cruelly before he struck to kill. So it was, that even as the Captains were about to turn away, the silence was broken suddenly. There came a long rolling of great drums like thunder in the mountains, and then a braying of horns that shook the very stones and stunned men's ears. And thereupon the middle door of the Black Gate was thrown open with a great clang, and out of it there came an embassy from the Dark Tower.

At its head rode a tall and evil shape, mounted upon a black horse, if horse it was; for it was huge and hideous, and its face was a frightful mask, more like a skull than a living head, and in the sockets of its eyes and in its nostrils there burned a flame. The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no ringwraith but a living man. ...and he said: 'I am the Mouth of Sauron.'"

This Mouth of Sauron seems powerful and strong, but Aragorn stares him down. But is the messenger sent from Sauron truly cowed or is he just pretending?

"...'But this time thou hast stuck out thy nose too far, Master Gandalf; and thou shalt see what comes to him who sets his foolish webs before the feet of Sauron the Great. I have tokens that I was bidden to show to thee-to thee in especial, if thou shouldst dare to come.' He signed to one of his guards, and he came forward bearing a bundle swathed in black cloths.

The Messenger put these aside, and there to the wonder and dismay of all the Captains he held up first the short sword that Sam had carried, and next a grey cloak with an elven-brooch, and last the coat of mithril-mail that Frodo had worn wrapped in his tattered garments. A blackness came before their eyes, and it seemed to them in a moment of silence that the world stood still, but their hearts were dead and their last hope gone."

That last bit is one of the biggest shockers in the story. Was it shocking to you? And does Gandalf's reaction surprise you?

III 194 "...this is the greatest jest in all the history of Gondor: that we should ride with seven thousands, scarce as many as the vanguard of its army in the days of its power..."

Elizabeth, Aragorn's army is small compared to what it might have been, but if one of the leaders were carrying the One Ring he would not need a big army to defeat Sauron. So a smaller army would make Sauron wonder about them having the Ring.

I'm going to throw out some questions.

Did Gandalf know that Sauron did not have the Ring when he rejected the offer put forward by The Mouth of Sauron?

I keep asking myself how Sauron came to be such a powerful enemy when his orc soldiers constantly seem to be killing each other off in internal squabbles?

Sam is most marvelous in this whole section, isn't he?

Nellie, I think that Gandalf realized that Sauron could not have the ring even though he had Sam's sword and Frodo's mail because Sauron would not bother to offer terms if he had the ring and all the power.

Yes, Sam comes through with flying colors, brave Sam!

Hallie Mae

I think Gandalf thought all was lost and that Sauron had the ring, but they would fight to the end since they were going to die anyway. They knew that Sauron couldn't offer terms in reality because he was totally treacherous; offering terms can only be done on the basis of a certain amount of trust. Remember, Sauron liked to play cat and mouse games.

Interesting thought Nellie "If one of the leaders were carrying the One Ring he would need an army to defeat Sauron. So a smaller army would make Sauron wonder about them having the Ring." You would think that wouldn't you? I would.

Hallie Mae said "We cannot achieve victory by arms but by arms we can give the Ring-bearer his only chance, frail though it be." My thought is it is a mental game - to "out smart" Sauron. Gandalf said "Without it (Ring) we cannot by force defeat his force."

Then Gandalf says "We must walk open-eyed into that trap, with courage, but small hope for ourselves."

I'll be back later about Sam.

Hallie Mae, Elizabeth, Brumie, I think we may find the answer to the question of whether Gandalf knew that Sauron did not have the Ring in the story itself.

First, let's think about this man called The Mouth of Sauron: I think when he speaks it is actually Sauron speaking through him. Now let's look at the final interaction between The Mouth and Gandalf:

"But Gandalf said: 'This is much to demand for the delivery of one servant: that your Master should receive in exchange what he must else fight many a war to gain! Or has the field of Gondor destroyed his hope in war, so that he falls to haggling? And if indeed we rated this prisoner so high, what surety have we that Sauron the Base Master of Treachery, will keep his part? Where is this prisoner? Let him be brought forth and yielded to us, and then we will consider these demands.'

It seemed then to Gandalf,intent, watching him as a man engaged in fencing with a deadly foe, that for the taking of a breath the Messenger was at a loss; yet swiftly he laughed again.

'Do not bandy words in your insolence with the Mouth of Sauron!' he cried. 'Surety you carve! Sauron gives none. If you sue for his clemency you must first do his bidding. These are his terms. Take them or leave them!' "

I think the moment that the Mouth hesitated Gandalf knew that Sauron did not hold Frodo prisoner for if he had then he would have shown Frodo to them because Sauron likes to play teasing games -likes to play 'cat and mouse' games. I found still another clue: Sam is never refered to. The Mouth speaks of 'a creature' and 'he was dear to you, I see.' So Gandalf knows that Sauron does not have Sam, and since Gandalf knows that Sam would not willingly leave Frodo, Gandalf knows Sauron does not have Frodo and that he does not have the Ring.

Tomorrow I will take a look at Sam's rescue of Frodo.

I will begin with a question: Do you think Sam could have rescued Frodo if the orcs had not fought and killed each other? Some power for good still seems to be helping them, doesn't it?

This favourite scene from The Tower of Cirith Ungol occurs after Sam has finally found Frodo:

"Sam gave no more thought to it. He ran to the figure huddled on the floor. It was Frodo.

He was naked, lying as if in a swoon on a heap of filthy rags: his arm was flung up, shielding his head,and across his side there ran an ugly whip-weal.

'Frodo! Mr. Frodo, my dear!' cried Sam, tears almost blinding him. 'It's Sam, I've come!' He half lifted his master and hugged him to his breast. Frodo opened his eyes.

'Am I still dreaming?' he muttered. 'But the other dreams were horrible.'

'You're not dreaming at all, Master,' said Sam. 'It's real. It's me. I've come.' "

And what a terrible effect the Ring has on Frodo! He almost attacks poor Sam to get it back:

" 'You've got it?' gasped Frodo. 'You've got it here? Sam, you're a marvel!' Then quickly and strangely his tone changed. 'Give it to me!' he cried, standing up, holding out a trembling hand. 'Give it me at once! You can't have it!' ...

'If it's too hard a job, I could share it with you, maybe?'

'No, no!' cried Frodo, snatching the Ring and chain from Sam's hands. 'No you won't, you thief!' He panted, staring at Sam with eyes wide with fear and enmity."

Do the next two chapters seem as tiring to you as they do to me? Do you feel for Frodo and Sam as they plod on through that horrid shadowy land?

Sam is so caring and unselfish. He says to Frodo about the Ring "I've kept it safe. It's around my neck now, and a terrible burden it is too." Then he added "...I suppose you must take it back." Sam felt reluctant to give up the Ring and burden his master with it again.

The Ring tempted Sam. He had wild fantasies. He saw himself as Samwise the Strong, Hero of the Age, striding with a flaming sword across the darkened land, and armies flocking to his call as he marched to the overthrow of Barad-dur. The Ring was gnawing at his will and reason. But in that "hour of trial it was the love of his master that helped most to hold him firm..."

I have been following the posts with great interest, but what with sore eyes and full life I have been behind in my reading. When I have made notes and come to post, I find that I am so far behind that my comments just wouldn't make sense. I will try to read on to the Tower of Cirith Ungol in the next day or two and make an effort to make a sensible comment.

Yesterday my family took me to see the film and as I watched I could see how truly Tolkien's imagery was portrayed. All the way through the book, I have always been impressed by the way he challenges all of the reader's senses. Take sound for example: the battle cries and clash of weapons and the stirring sound of trumpets to mention just a few. Even the singing - the contrast of battle songs with the song of Legolas in the chapter THE LAST DEBATE ..."he sang an elven song in a clear voice as he walked in the morning;......" what a contrast in images.

I also admire the way the Tolkien builds up suspense and keeps the reader waiting till he resolves a situation. Somewhere back he talked about the wind changing (several times I think), and fed our curiosity as to why this was significant. It was only in THE LAST DEBATE, that he gave us the reason why the wind changing had such an impact - it stirred the becalmed ships and enabled Aragorn and his men to arrive in time to influence the battle.

Also in THE LAST DEBATE (I think), he finally lets us into Aragorn's men's experience in The Paths of the Dead. Even then he plays with the reader -

' "The Paths of the Dead?" said Pippin. "I heard Aragorn say that, and I wondered what he could mean "Wont you tell us some more?" "Not willingly" said Gimli. "For upon that road I was put to shame"........

and so it goes on for more discussion, leaving us dangling until

'......but Pippin and Merry were so eager for news that at last Legolas said;"I will tell you enough for your peace; for I felt not the horror, and I feared not the shadows of Men, powerless and frail as I deemed them."

And so he narrated their experience in some detail.

I know this is way behind the reading, but felt I had to make a contribution. Will try to catch up.

BARBARA SHERMAN.

I have been meaning to ask for some time this rather circuitous question:

While this is a fantasy about good and evil, it has always impacted on me as a tender love story. By that I mean love in its broadest sense.

Q. Does it leave this impression on you, too?

Brumie, yes Sam is tempted by the Ring, and I think almost everyone who comes in contact with it or whom it is offered to by Frodo is tempted. And they all see themselves doing things that are beyond their abilities. Do you think that one of the reasons those who have the Ring are relunctant to give it up, is that it fuels those fantasies of grandeur?

Barbara, both your posts are thoughtful and good contributions. Do I see the story as a tender love story? I certainly find it to be filled with love -and you speak of the 'agape' love mentioned in the New Testament as I understand it-a spiritual rather than erotic physical love, I assume? I see it more as a story of opposites: good and evil, love and hate. And love is connected to good, while hate is connected to evil. For example we have in The Tower of Cirith Ungol good examples of just those two opposites: one the one hand we have the orcs who are on the side of evil and the hateful way they treat each other, fighting and constantly quarreling; and on the side of Good we have Sam and Frodo -or perhaps I should say Sam-who treats Frodo with the utmost of love and care. I think that Frodo at that time stands on the cusp between good and evil, love and hate, because of the Ring and he is unable to be as loving as Sam because of that.

Now a favourite bit from The Land of Shadow.

"They had trudged for more than an hour when they heard a sound that brought them to a halt. Unbelievable, but unmistakable. Water trickling. Out of a gully on the left, so sharp and narrow that it looked as if the black cliff had been cloven by some huge axe, water came dripping down: the last remains, maybe, of some sweet rain gathered from sunlit seas, but ill-fated to fall at lastupon the walls of the Black Land and wander fruitless into the dust. Here it came out of the rock in a little falling streamlet, and flowed across the path, and turning south ran away swiftly to be lost among the dead stones. ...

The water was cool but not icy, and it had an unpleasant taste, at once bitter and oily, or so they would have said at home. Here it was beyond all praise, and beyond fear or prudence. They drank their fill, and Sam replenished his water bottle."

Those are my thoughts for tonight!

Great post Barbara. I've noticed how Tolkien uses wind, clouds, sun, and many more to give a sense of change (darkness to light + light to darkness). His writing makes me feel like I am there.

An example: The Land of Shadow

"Light was growing behind them. Slowly it crept toward the North. There was battle far above in high spaces of the air. The billowing clouds of Mordor were being driven back, their edges tattering as a wind out of the living world came up and swept the fumes and smokes towards the dark land of their home. Under the lifting skirts of the dreary canopy dim light leaked into Mordor like pale morning through the grimed window of a prison."

Sam said "Look at it! The wind's changed. Something's happening..."

Nellie you mention water.

Sam said that if he could only see the Lady all he would ask for was water and light - just clean water and plain daylight. When they found water Sam sprang towards it and said "If ever I see the Lady again, I will tell her!..Light and now water."

But as Sam approached the water he stopped and said to Frodo "Let me drink first." Frodo says okay but "there's room enough for two." But no what Sam meant was "if it's poisonous, or something that will show its badness quick, well, better me than you, master, if you understand me." Frodo knew what he meant but said "But I think we'll trust our luck together, Sam; or our blesing. Still, be careful now, if it's very cold!"

Barbara and Nellie, very interesting to read your opinions on the meaning of LOTR. I too see it as the never ending fight of good vs. evil.

Brumie, as a rule, when I read, I often find descriptive passages of atmosphere very boring and too long. Tolkien's descriptions however are far from boring.

I saw a very interesting interview of Peter Jackson, the director of LOTR, with Charlie Rose on PBS. He told an interesting story about how he chose the actor to play Frodo. He had decided Frodo should be an English actor, he interiewed about 300 hopefuls when a video arrived in the mail from Elijah Woods, an American actor. Woods had, on his own time and money, hired a voice coach, got together what he thought of as a hobbit costume, went into the woods with a friend to videotape him reading passages from LOTR.. .obviously he got the part. I wonder how he happened to pick another American to play Sam?

Jackson also said that he redid LOTR for DVD with an additional 30 minutes of scenes that were cut from the movie we saw. According to his description, these scenes were interactions between all the different characters, the very thing I thought was missing from the movie.

Hallie Maeto

What wonderful descriptions. I wish I could write like that.

NELLI AND HALLIE MAE:

I believe that there are many sorts of love. Probably the best description of true love that I know is "I need you because I love you" whereas many people believe "I love you because I need you.

There are many illustrations of love in these books, beginning probably with Bilbo Baggins love for Gandalf, then there is Eowyn and Aerogorn and the somewhat distorted love of Denethor for Faramir. Then there is the ultimate love (and I misquote) 'No greater love has a man than this, that he lay down his life for his brother.'

One of my favourite passages in the book that illustrates loyalty, tenderness, concern and gentle love is in THE TOWER OF CIRITH UNGOL -

........................................................'Frodo! Mr. Frodo, my dear!' cried Sam, tears almost blinding him. 'It's Sam, I've come!' He half lifted his master and hugged him to his breast, Frodo opened his eyes.

'Am I still dreaming?' he muttered. But the other dreams were horrible.'

'You're not dreaming at all, Master,' said Sam. 'It's real. It's me. I've come.'

'I can hardly believ3e it,' said Frodo, clutching him. 'There was an orc with a whip, and then it turns into Sam. 'Then I wasn't dreaming after all when I heard that singing down below, and I tried to answer? Was it you?'

'It was indeed, Mr. Frodo. I'd given up hope, almost. I couldn't find you.'

'Well, you have now, Sam, dear Sam,' said Frodo, and he lay back in Sam's gentle arms, closing his eyes, like a child at rest when night-fears are driven away by some loved voice or hand.

Sam felt tht he could sit like that in endless happiness; but it was not allowed. It was not enough for him to find his master, he had still to try and save him. He kissed Frodo's forehead. 'Come! Wake up, Mr. Frodo!' he said, trying to sound as cheerful as he had when he drew back the curtains at Bag End on a summer's morning."

I go now into the Land of the Shadow.

Wonderful posts everyone! I'm short of time tonight so won't go to deeply into things...

Here is the description of Mount Doom as seen in the distance by Frodo and Sam:

"Still far away, forty miles at least, they saw Mount Doom, its feet founded in ashen ruin, its huge cone rising to a great height, where its reeking head was swathed in cloud. Its fires were now dimmed, and it stood smouldering in slumber, as threatening and dangerous as a sleeping beast."

And beyond Mount Doom they see:

"Behind it there hung a vast shadow, ominous as a thunder-cloud, the veils of Barad-Dur that was reared far away upon a long spur of the Ashen Mountains thrust down from the North. The Dark Power was deep in thought, and the Eye turned inward, pondering tidings of doubt and danger: a bright sword, and a stern and kingly face it saw, and for a little while it gave little thought to other things; and all its great stronghold, gate on gate, tower on tower, was wrapped in a brooding gloom."

But now I must go...see you all tomorrow!

Good post Barbara about the different kinds of love. Especially when you said "Greater love has no one man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." (John l5:l3)

Sam shook his head as he worked things out because slowly a new dark thought grew in his mind. "Never for long had hope died in his taunch heart, and always until now he had taken some thought for their return. But the bitter truth came home to him ... at best their provision would take them to their goal; and when the task was done, there they would come to an end, alone, houseless, foodless in the midst of a terrible deser. There could be no return."

Sam thought to himself "to help Mr. Frodo to the last step and then die with him? Well, if that is the job then I must do it." But Sam thought about the ones dear to him like Rosie Cotton and her brothers, and the Gaffer and Marigold and all.

BUT when hope seemed to die Sam found new strength. His plain hobbit-face grew stern and as "the will hardened in him, and he felt though all his limbs a thrill, as if he was turning into some creature of stone and steel that neither despair nor weariness nor endless barren miles could subdue."

Sounds like Sam been "recharged" or he got his "second wind."

Brumie, Sam gets his second wind and when Frodo can go no further when they reach the foot of Mount Doom, he carries Frodo.

"As Frodo clung upon his back, arms loosely about his neck, legs clasped firmly under his arms, Sam staggered to his feet; and then to his amazement he felt the burden light. He had feared that he would have barely strength to lift his master alone, and beyond that he had expected to share in the dreadful dragging weight of the accursed Ring. But it was not so. Whether because Frodo was so worn by his long pains, wound of knife, and venomous sting, and sorrow, fear, and homeless wandering, or because some gift of final strength was given to him, Sam lifted Frodo with no more difficulty than if he were carrying a hobbit-child pig-a-back in some romp on the lawns or hayfields of the Shire. He took a deep breath and started off."

And Gollum is still sneaking around. Interesting isn't it that he attacks Frodo and tries to get the Ring away just when Frodo has almost given up?

Here is a question I ask myself each time I read this story: why can Frodo not do what he suffered so much to be able to do? The temptations of the Ring finally win out, why?

I think that the scene in which we see Gollum fighting with an invisible Frodo with the fires blazing up and the Nazgul heading their way is one of the most exciting in the whole story.

We have only a couple of days left for our discussion and there is still much to be looked at. I have noticed one thing, this story goes in a circle, like a ring, and ends where it began.

After all the struggles that every member of the Fellowship has gone through we come to a period of peace and joy.

And with that thought I will leave you for this evening.

MOUNT DOOM what an exciting chapter.

In one of Tolkien's letters he wrote a letter to a reader who comments on Frodo's failure to surrender the Ring. Here's a few quotes from it.

"Frodo indeed 'failed' as a hero...he did not endure to the end; he gave in, ratted." Tolkien doesn't believe that Frodo was a moral failure because the pressure of the Ring would reach its maximum and impossible for anyone to resist after long possession, months of increasing torment, and when starved and exhausted. "But Frodo had done what he could and spent himself completely and had produced a situation in which the object of his quest be achieved. HIS HUMILITY AND HIS SUFFERINGS WERE JUSTLY REWARDED BY THE HIGHEST HONOR; AND HIS EXERCISE OF PATIENCE AND MERCY TOWARDS GOLLUM GAINED HIM MERCY: HIS FAILURE WAS REDRESSED."

Sam cried "Master" and fell on his knees. "In all that ruin of the world for a moment he felt only JOY, GREAT JOY. THE BURDEN WAS GONE." Frodo reminded Sam if he remembered Gandalf words. "Even Gollum may have something yet to do? But for him, Sam, I could not have destroyed the Ring. The Quest would have been in vain, even at the bitter end. So let us forgive him!"

So Frodo couldn't throw the Ring into Mount Doom because Gollum (would you dare to think) was the chosen one to destroy the Ring.

So Frodo couldn't throw the Ring into Mount Doom because Gollum (would you dare to think) was the chosen one to destroy the Ring.>

I love this twist. It is consistent with the concept of every race and creature participating in the universal conflict.

Frodo remembered Gandalf's statement about Gollum serving a purpose.

I like to think that Frodo was a hero, not because he succeeded in what he thought his task was, but in that he tested every fiber of his being in the trying. We don't always know what we are really meant to do: sometimes it's just getting to the right place at the right time for someone else to complete the task.

Brumie, I thought of the Ring and the great pressure It must have been putting on Frodo in that place where It had been created, that place so near Its creator. I also thought that the Ring would sense what was going to happen to it, for it was so close to Sauron a part of whose spirit it contained and I imagine it could sense its maker. And Frodo was so weakened by everything that had happened to him that he could no longer resist.

His mercy towards Gollum was well repaid. And it is so fitting that it is Gollum who ends up destroying the Ring, although he does not wish to destroy it at all. I think that we have noticed before that evil often works against itself in LOTR and this is another case of that. I think that by the time he is fighting with Frodo inside the mountain, Gollum is totally evil, whatever trace of good existed in him in the form of Smeagol is totally gone.

Sheila, I like that thought: sometimes you are a hero if you just get to the place where someone else can finish the task.

But in the end the task was completed by an accident:

" 'Precious, precious, precious!' Gollum cried. 'My Precious! O my Precious!' And with that, even as his eyes were lifted up to gloat on his prize, he stepped too far, toppled, wavered for a moment on the brink, and then with a shriek he fell. Out of the depths came his last wail Precious, and he was gone."

The Field of Cormallen is the place where the healing begins as Frodo and Sam are honoured for what they have done. And old friends meet again.

Don't you like the way Eowyn and Faramir fall in love with each other?

Were you surprised by the state of the Shire when the hobbits return to it?

And there is more than one romance or love story in the story -there is the story of Aragorn and Arwen, and that of Eowyn and Faramir; but there is also the story of Rosie and Sam. Which one do you like best?

Why is Frodo unable to live a normal life any longer?

Tomorrow is the last day of the month and the last day of this discussion -I wish there were more time to spend on this book and the whole story; but to all good things there must come an end.

I am sorry that I could not finish the book by the time that the discussion ended. I started behind and I finished behind (grinning). However, today I got to MOUNT DOOM and I had forgotten what a riveting tale it is. I sat down to read for a few minutes and just could not put the book down. That chapter has everything, plot, suspense, touching interaction between Sam and Frodo and the final triumph of good over evil. And above all it creates reader urgency to find out what eventually happens to Sam and Frodo.

Bye everyone and will see you again.

Barbara Sherman.

Now can everyone see Faramir's strength? Aragorn's always showed in my mind. I loved all the love stories.

The greatest love story of all is in the end - I cried when Frodo, Bilbo, Grandalf and group left to sail away.

One last thought: Gollum was a poor, tortured creature and I can understand Frodo's pity for him. Frodo had experienced the awful power of the ring. It was a just end for Gollum to die with his "precious".

Nellie, Brumie, Francylou, Sheilak and all who participted in this discussion, sorry this is the last day. It has been a joy.and added immensely to my pleasure reading LOTR, thanks..

Hallie Mae

Hi Nellie, Barbara, Hallie Mae, Fancy Lou, Sheila, and many more I've enjoyed LOTR book discussion. I never dreamed how much I would enjoy Tolkien and learn so much from his writing.

Nellie you did a wonderful job. Thanks so much.

To me the most romantic couple was Faramir and Eowyn. My favorite passage "And as they stood so, their hands met and clasped, though they did not know it."

There were many sad "goodbyes" but there is one that touched my heart and that is Arwen and Elrond (father and daughter). Read Appendix A and you'll understand the full meaning. "When the feast was over, those who were to go took leave of King Eomer. Aragorn and his knights, and the people of Lorien and of Rivendell, made ready to ride; but Faramir and Imrahil remained at Edoras; and Arwen Evenstar remained also, and she said farewell to her brethren. NONE SAW HER LAST MEETING WITH ELROND HER FATHER, FOR THEY WENT UP INTO THE HILLS AND THERE SPOKE LONG TOGETHER, AND BITTER WAS THEIR PARTING THAT SHOULD ENDURE BEYOND THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."

This touches my heart because it brings warmth to me "At last they rode over the downs and took the East Road, and then Merry and Pippin rode on to Buckland" and Sam turned to Bywater, "and so came back up the Hill, as day was ending once more. And he went on, and there was YELLOW LIGHT, AND FIRE WITHIN; AND THE EVENING MEAL WAS READY, and HE WAS EXPECTED. And Rose drew him in, and set him in a chair, and put little Elanor upon his lap. "

He drew a deep breath and said "Well, I'm back."

Thanks to all of you. Your sharing has really enriched the reading of this trilogy. Nellie - you did a great job of keeping us on track and asking some great questions. This is my first book discussion group. Wonderful experience.

Happy reading to you all.

Sheila

Barbara, I thank you for spending time with us here and enjoyed your presence.

FrancyLou, I knew that Faramir was a great guy right from the first moment I met him in the story. I thank you for being here.

Hallie Mae, I'm glad that our discussion added to your pleasure of reading the story. Your presence added to the pleasure of the discussion. Thank you so much for being with us.

Sheila, I thank you so much for being a part of our discussion.

Brumie, thank you for being here and for providing all that fascinating information from Tolkien's Letters.

That last bit you quoted about Sam coming home to a normal life is what the whole story is about in the end. And someone suffers and loses the possibility of having that life...as Frodo says in this bit:

" 'But,' said Sam, and tears started in his eyes, 'I thought you were going to enjoy the Shire, too, for years and years, after all you have done.'

'So I thought too, once. But I have been too deeply hurt, Sam. I tried to save the Shire, and it has been saved, but not for me. It must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger: someone has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them.' "

But while Frodo loses out on a normal life in the Shire, he gains life in Paradise -it is not called that,but it seems like that to me-and that is not at all a sad thing.

I want to thank everyone else who was with us even if it was just for a little while -your presence was appreciated.

Nellie, Brumie and all--This has been a lovely way to read a wonderful book(s) and I hope we can all do it soon again.

Thank you so much for the time and effort you put into this book reading. I thoroughly enjoyed LoTR this time around and the different meanings that everyone found in this book. I am sorry that I didn't get to finish, but am nearly there now and the later posts will help me focus on the ending. It is like saying au revoir to a lot of friends. Byeee to everyone and thank you again Nellie

Barbara Sherman

Elizabeth, I thank you for being with us!

Putting in one more message. For all Tolkien fans: I'm reading a really interesting book called Unfinished Tales edited by Christopher Tolkien which contains a whole bunch of stories related to LOTR that Tolkien began and never finished.

In them I learned something interesting about Galadriel. Did you know that Tolkien pictured her as being over six feet tall? And her hair is a beautiful blending of gold and silver -no wonder everyone, including Gimli asks for a lock of it.

Anyways, I thought you all might like to know about this fascinating book.

Nellie, thanks! I almost bought that book but chose The Silmarillion

Hi Nellie.. & Brumie... I am a Tolkien fan from away back... when the boys first brought the books home from school in '64... I just borrowed Unfinshed Tales from the Library.. Maybe I will need to buy it to add to my collection .

Thanks for a great discussion...

Nellie, thanks for the tip about Christopher Tolkien's book.

Brumie, I had "Silmarillion" a while ago - I found it tough going and gave the book away - darn it. After the wonderful discussion we just had I think I might have tried to read it again more carefully.

Hallie Mae

Maybe I'll have to dig out my old copy of the Simmarilion and reread it. To see if it would make an interesting book for discussion. Just a thought.

I have my eye on other interesting Tolkien books and when I get another one will share here or in the SciFi Clearinghouse.

Nellie, sounds like a good thought!

"Only by reading the Silmarillion will The Lord of the Rings be put into perspective. The Silmarillion can stand on its own (although w/o the popularity of The Lord of the Rings there would have been no readership) as a literary work.

But The Lord of the Rings depends on the Silmarillion, from which all the myths are drawn."

From this page: http://members.cts.com/king/e/erikt/tolkien/readsil.htm

Brumie, it is an interesting book as Pat's link shows. I'd also like to look at the LOTR trilogy some more, specially since I ended things so abruptly and we didn't get a good look at some of the final chapters in The Return of the King.

But it would be interesting to do the Silmarillion and then to look back at some of the related things in the Trilogy.

Thanks for the link Pat!

Nellie, I agree. I bought a book titled The Peoples of Middle-Earth by Christopher Tolkien right before the discussion ended. I bought this book and Silmarillion because I wanted to know more about the characters - background - especially Sauron. In LOTR, as I recall correct me if I'm wrong, there was no physical description of him (Sauron) only a shadow.

All I can do is shake my head and say "there too much in this book." Understand what I'm trying to say?

Pat, thanks for the link. Added it to my favorites.

Brumie, are you referring to Peoples of Middle-Earth when you say there is too much in this book, or to some other Tolkien book? However I think that I understand somewhat what you mean.

I was referring to LOTR. There much in that book. My comment is meant to be positive not negative. I can't really express my very well. I just marvel - Tolkien was such a wonderful writer.

Brumie, yes that makes what you said more clear to me.

This specific discussion of LOTR has ended, but the discussion will continue of Tolkien in the General Book Discussion.

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