Lydia Cassatt Reading the Morning Paper ~ Harriet Export

Join us to discuss
Lydia Cassatt Reading the Morning Paper
By Harriet Scott Chessman

Lydia Cassatt was the elder sister of American Impressionist painter Mary Cassatt; she was also one of Mary’s favorite models. In this novel, told by Lydia, the Cassatts have taken an apartment in Paris so Mary can work with other artists there-Monet, Pizarro, Renoir, Degas-and develop her painting in concert with her peers. Lydia suffers from Bright’s Disease and is frequently bed-ridden. When she is well enough, she poses for Mary. While modeling, Lydia has long hours to remember her life, contemplate her approaching death, and consider the larger questions of love, happiness, and how one leaves a mark on the world. Each successive painting for which she sits brings Lydia closer to the realization that she will be remembered, that she has indeed left her mark, and that people will know and appreciate her for many long years, through her sister’s paintings. Chessman tells the story with feeling and sympathy, giving the listener the benefit of her intended emphasis and tone.--The Library Journal

Questions for Discussion

1.Each of the five chapters of this book is focused around one of Mary Cassatt’s paintings of her sister, Lydia. What do you think is the author’s purpose in centering a work of fiction around these paintings?

2.Why do you think the author tells this story from Lydia’s point of view? What is the advantage of using this point of view?

3.What do you think is the signifigance of the fact that Lydia is reading a newspaper in this painting? Why does Chessman use it as the first painting?

4.Do you feel that Lydia’s illness dominates her life or is she able to over come its physical limitations?

5. Do you feel that Lydia is jealous of Degas? If so why?

6.How does Lydia react to Degas telling her , "You show me how to live, if only I could do it as you do." What does he mean by this?

7.How does Lydia feel about being the passive sitter rather than the active artist?

8.Lydia says that she holds dear her time with her sister, but she feels guilty that she keeps Mary from her painting, especially at the times that Mary spends time nursing her when she has a severe bout of her illness. How is this shown in the story ? How does Mary feel about caring for for Lydia during the bouts of illness?

9. Describe Paris in the late 1800s through Lydia's eyes. How is it a different place from the Philadelphia she knows so well? Discuss what she means by being "in love with this bright and foreign life."

10. How would you describe Lydia's relationship with her mother and father? How does this compare to Mary's relationship with them?

11. What does Lydia admire most about Mary's work?

LINKS

Museum of Fine Art, Boston - Mary Cassatt: Modern Woman||OLGA’S GALLERY: Mary Cassatt|| Art Institute of Chicago _ Mary Cassatt: Modern Woman|| Mary Cassatt|| Mary Cassatt Biography||Mary Cassatt: Celebrating Everyday life|| Artist: Mary Stevenson Cassatt|| Web Museum Paris: Mary Cassatt|| Author Interview

Discussion Leader: Joan Grimes

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Join us here to discuss this interesting little book. It is a short book with about 164 pages and is a work of fiction although it is based on the lives of Mary Cassatt, the American Impressionist painter and her sister, Lydia Cassatt. Their life in Paris is fascinating.

We hope to learn alot about Mary Cassatt and other artists of the period.

Joan

I am looking forward to Lydia Cassatt Reading the Morning Paper as it seems to have so much to offer, such as feeling and art. I also like the heading being short and the book cover. I will try to get this book.

Welcome Ginger!! I am happy to see that you will be here to read and discuss this book.

Joan

Hi, Joan!

I'd like to join this discussion.

Mal

Oh this is fabulous, what a venture, I'm definitely IN, I know nothing about Cassat only having heard the name, this is not the type of art I normally am interested in, so can't help but learn something, what a boon, hopefully there will be more of these types of things, a SERIES about ART, yes yes, now how accurate IS this, I take it this is fiction, are the facts right? Why write fiction when you could write biography? What's the difference here? Why did she do it that way?

hahaha as you can see the Question Box is wide open, BUT we can wait till the discussion, (and let's DO) for the answers.

I'm lokoing forward to this experience and want the difference in biography and fiction clear for myself when we start...can we TRUST the facts as the author presents them?

What a super choice Joan G this is very exciting!

ginny

Welcome Mal! Great to have you joining the discussion! I am really looking forward to it.

Welcome Ginny, glad you are going to be here for this discussion! You are right there are many questions that can be asked here.

I will say that this book was recommended to me by a fellow docent who is a collector of art. She is very knowledgeable about art. So I feel that is really worth reading and discussing.

It looks like we have a quorum now. However I hope that we will have lots of other participants here.

Joan

Joan, I was going to say, Hey, remind us again, closer to start date...but that silly! All I need do is subscribe now, and I'll KNOW when you get started.

See ya...

Sun

Joan Grimes ~ I'm interested and thanks for opening this book discussion. I shall go to Books A Million and see if I can get a copy of the book to read. Imagine being friends with Renoir and Degas. I have always admired Mary Cassatt's paintings of the dear children. I hope this is not a sad book about dying

Emma

Wlecome Sunknow! I am so happy to see you here. I am really looking forward to your participation in the discussion. Good idea to subscribe. also you may post here now although we will not actually start the book discussion until Feb. 1. Also I will be putting out notices again before then.

Emma Barb Welcome! It is good to see you here. I was hoping that you would participate in this discussion. Hope you are able to get the book easily. I am sure that Books a Million will get it for you if they do not have it in stock.

I am really looking forward to this discussion with this interesting group of people. It is going to be really good.

Joan

The last book of stamps I purchased at the post office were a series of Mary Cassatt's paintings. The one on the cover of this book is included in the series.

Emma Barb,

That is interesting to know. I would like to get a book of those stamps.

At our art museum here in Birmingham we only have one painting by Mary Cassatt. It is an unfinished painting of a lady. I wish we had more o her works here.

Joan

Joan Grimes ~ Don't know if this URL is too long but will try.....to order Mary Cassatt .37¢ USA book of stamps online click here.

Emma Barb,

Thanks so much for that link. I am going to order a book of the Mary Cassatt stamps! I am excited that I am able to do this just before we start this book discussion. This is so neat! I can completely immerse my self into the subject of Mary Cassatt right down to paying my bills with the Mary Cassatt stamp. <smile>

Joan

Hi Everyone,

I have just been to the Barnes and Noble Website to check out videos and DVDs about Mary Cassatt. I found three. I am going to order the first one I found. It is on both DVD and video. If anyone is interested you can check it out here

Mary Cassatt videos or DVDs

Joan

There is a PBS special right NOW on about Degas, if you can get it!

This afternoon I read this book in one sitting while waiting for my car to be repaired and it's quite good, it's different, and I think we will have a super discussion of it, I enjoyed it, very much.

ginny

Oh I missed it Ginny. Wish I had seen it. I see that it will be shown again in this area at 3:00 AM on Jan 11th. Can't believe that.

Joan

I got my book this afternoon and have read the first chapter. I'm going to need some help with some of those French words and phrases

Joan Grimes ~ thanks for the link to DVDs for Mary Cassatt, will check into that. I have a lovely book about her and her paintings.

Ginny ~ oh I wish I could see that PBS special about Degas. I'll have to set my VCR for the 3 am showing on Sunday if I'm able to.

Our PBS station in the D.C./Maryland area will air "Degas and the Dance" on Jan 28th at 11:00 pm. (if anyone is interested there are some great links here to Degas)

Emma

Emma Barb,

Most of the French words and phrases are not necessary to understanding what is being said. Some of them are the names of newspapers. If you need a translation of anything just post the word or phrase here and I will translate it for you. I did not find any French in the book that I could not read.<smile>

Joan

Joan Grimes ~ just a few

Je l´espére ?, marron confit, alors. Ne t´en fais pas, Des´olée, Pourquois, C´est vrai, rillette, J´ai besoin de toi, D´accord......some I think I know but would appreciate confirmation

(sometimes I cannot read my own handwriting but I'm sure you'll know what I mean).

i am thrilled to see this book offered and will look forward to reading this discussion, joan and everyone. may i jump in and give some meanings here? it'll just take a second and i hope no one minds.

Je l´espére -- i hope so.

marron confit -- chestnut jam or marmelade mixture.

alors -- so or then

Ne t´en fais pas -- don't do it.

Des´olée -- people use the one word, désolée, to mean "i'm sorry."

Pourquoi -- why

C´est vrai -- it's true or right.

rillette -- a specialty of northern france, most often minced porc but often made of duck here in the south -- it has about a half inch of congealed fat on the top and is most commonly spread at room temperature on slices of a baguette.

J´ai besoin de toi -- i need you or i could use your help.

D´accord -- all right or o.k.

WElcome fairwinds! We are happy to see you here. Hope you will jump in anytime and join us in this discussion. You will certainly be an asset to the discussion.

Hi Emma Barb, I am happy to see you posted some of the French that is used in the book. I am sure that the translations will help other readers too. You must have posted after I went to bed last night as I did not see this until this morning. Since fairwinds had already answered you I went on to our community prayer breakfast before posting here today.

Everyone, please feel free to post any of the French that you do not understand . Someone will translate for you.

Joan

fairwinds ~ I am delighted to see you here. And thanks for helping with the French.

I read the last chapter several times....I didn't want it to end so soon.

JOAN, at first, I didn't make the connection between Mary Cassatt and Lydia. I love the Impressionists and the Paris scene. I am interested in joining this discussion.

Eloïse

Welcome Eloise! We will be very happy to have you join us here for this discussion. I am sure that we are going to have a good discussion.

Joan

"I am not willing to admit that a woman can draw that well!" -- Edgar Degas -- upon viewing a color aquatint exhibition by Mary Casatt.

hi -- i broke my arm yesterday. fell down some stairs. my daughter arrived from l.a. and is helping a lot. can't type. see you in six weeks. take care.

Oh fairwinds!

I am so sorry to hear about your broken arm! I hope that all goes well with the healing of your arm. Please join us when you can.

Joan

I hope to get this book and join the discussion. I love the work of Mary Cassatt and have several catalogues from MOMA of exhibitions containing her work. I also have boxes of greeting cards with her paintings on the front. In my bathroom, I have a framed print of the lovely Woman at the Washbasin. I have always loved the stories of her relationship to the male impressionists she knew in Paris at that time. This will also give me a chance to use my rusty college French.

Welcome horselover! We are looking forward to having you join us in this discussion.

Cassatt is very interesting to me. She is also one of my favorite painters.

Joan

Hello there! I'm dying to meet Lydia in Paris. She and I share the delicious habit of reading the paper first thing in the morning. What a lovely picture on the cover of the book. How I've often fantasized that I was similarly afflicted with a debilitating sickness and then************...into my life walks****** ********* ******** Robert Browning! I much prefer this dream to Cinderella!. Look forward to finding out more about these sisters and their lives. Count me in, please.

Welcome Pamelam! Wonderful to see you will be joining our discussion. We have a nice group here for this discussion. I am really looking forward to it.

On Feb. 1st we start our discussion. On Feb.1st we have a wonderful exhibition of French art opening at our museum here in Birmingham. It will include both Old Masters and Impressionists. Mary Cassatt is included in this exhibition. I am really looking forward to it as there is nothing I enjoy more than immersing myself in Art.

To read about the exhibition and how it was organized click on

http://web.pam.org/asp/special_exhibitions/exhibitions_listing/17th_century_paintings/17th_century_paintings.asp

You will also see some of the early paintings there.

Also click on

http://www.artsbma.org/frpaintingintro.htm

Joan

Joan Grimes ~ how exciting ! Oh how I wish I could see the exhibition at the Birmingham Museum of art. Thanks for the link to at least read about French paintings.

Here is link to the a few of the Impressionist paintings that are in the Exhibition. http://www.metmuseum.org/special/Levin/impressionist_images.htm

These are from the Metropolitian Museum collection and are in the Exhibition at the Birmingham Museum of Art.

Emma Barb, I really wish that you could see it too.

Joan

I got the book from my library and have started reading it. I haven't read that much yet, but love the beginning because it brings back all my trips to Paris--the streets, the shops, the cafes, the Louvre. I'm already longing to return. )

Hi horselover,

I know what you mean about "back all my trips to Paris--the streets, the shops, the cafes, the Louvre". It does the same for me. It really does make you want to go there.

My husband and I are going there on March 24th and we can hardly wait. In the meantime we will have this book to talk about with our SeniorNet friends.

Joan

Joan, You are sooo lucky! What a perfect time to revisit Paris; it will be almost Spring. This book is great so far. The edition I have has plates of the paintings that Lydia posed for, and that are described in the story. I did see the original of one of them at the Metropolitan Museum in NYC. I'm looking forward to this discussion.

And I'm going also, later, at the last of May, going first to Holland to see the tulips among other things, are there any Cassatts in Paris, Joan?

Or is that a stupid question, I think I must see ONE since I will be learning about them here, if there are any there!

ginny

Ginny, in Paris the Musée d'Orsey is where the Impressionists are and I don't remember which Cassatt I saw there, but I love her work.

Eloïse

I've seen many Cassatt paintings here in the States; have only been to Paris once in my life and was busy looking at the Monet Nymphéas and Max Ernst's paintings then.

Mary Cassatt is not one of my favorite artists, but I have enjoyed reading Chessman's book about Lydia Cassatt and the people Mary Cassatt knew in Paris at that time.

Lydia Cassatt Reading the Morning Paper is a gentle book, delicately written, and I think Harriet Chessman did a fine job describing Mary Cassatt's paintings. It's not easy to talk about art, and she has done well.

Anxious for this discussion to begin.

Mal

Read about The Fitting, by Mary Cassatt...drypoint and aquatint in colors.

I like Cassatt's Drypoint and Aquatint works, which show the Japanese influence, better than her paintings or pastels. The link below give you access to 59 of Cassatt's works.
Mary Cassatt artwork

Good Morning Everyone,

Horselover, I do feel very lucky to be able to visit Paris this year. Yes it will be Spring. Monet's Gardens at Giverny will open on April lst. We will visit them again this year.

Ginny, Oh May will be glorious in France! The Rape fields will be solid gold. I love them. Yes there are Cassatts in France, although most of her work is in this country.

Ginny you should come to Birmingham to see the exhibition that open here on Feb 1. It will be here until April 11th. It does have some Cassatts in it. It is not all that far from where you live to Birmingham.

As you said Eloise, Impressionists are displayed in the Musée D'Orsay and Cassatt is there among them. To see one of her paintings that is at the D'Orsay click on

http://www.abcgallery.com/C/cassatt/cassatt54.html

Cassatt's paintings are also found in other French museums. One that is found at Musée du Petite Palais, Paris, France. can be seen by clicking on

http://www.abcgallery.com/C/cassatt/cassatt16.html

Malryn, thanks for that link. As you can see I have put links of specific paintings from those listed in that sight in this post.

Joan

Joan, I have put your link in my favorites as I has never seen these Cassatts before. thank you for posting the links.

Eloïse

I purchased the book this afternoon and what a delightful and charming little book it is just to hold in one's hands. I have not had the good fortune to visit Paris as many of you here have, but I decorated my upstaris bathroom in a Paris theme! That's about as close as I will probably get! Looking forward to this discussion.

Hi Paige! Welcome! I am so glad to see you here! This going to be a great discussion!

You decorated your upstairs bathroom in a Paris theme! Tell us about it. I want to do my powder room in a Paris theme. Please tell us how you did your bathroom.

Joan

I'm glad SOMEBODY decorates on a theme, my house looks like DSS, that's the theme here hahahahaha, great group assembling, I can't wait to hear what Paris Theme looks like, too, Joan G. I go thru stages and come home and try to change my own surroundings, good thing I don't follow thru much. The barn is white with a red roof, that was Switzerland, I never got the flower boxes on there. Then I went to Provence and now I don't want the red roof, too bad hahahah, that's the way my decorating goes. hahaahah

Our house is an old cottage style built in the 1940's. Everyone that has lived here has kind of added on to it, nothing fancy but it does have some charm. The Paris bathroom has a lot of French toile fabric, framed pictures of hats, real hats hung on the wall and a little tin sign that says "chapeaux." Also one that says "modes." Lavender is part of the whole thing, again pictures, lavender bubble bath, etc. There is a wall with those ugly mirror tiles. I used a big empty picture frame, painted it white, hung it over the mirror tiles and hung a huge white curtain pulled back with a rose over the whole thing. There is a Paris sign, some things I bought in the French Quarter in New Orleans. Does that give you an idea of a bit of it? It's mostly in creams and mauves. I live near a little old fashioned village where there is a shop full of things from France. The shop is called "Love Letters." I don't know why I got off into this Paris theme a couple of years ago. For a very long time I have been a fan of the Swedish artist Carl Larsson. He paid homage to life in the country with his house full of paintings on the walls of his wife, children and daily life. Has anyone here visited Sweden and his house?

Ginny, your barn sounds fabulous! Just having a barn sounds great!

Paige,

Thanks for telling us about your Paris theme in your bathroom. I sounds beautiful.

I have never been to Sweden.

SunKnow,

Happy Birthday.

Joan

I don't know if I'll have time to read this book during February, but I will lurk some, perhaps. I've always admired the work of Mary Cassatt and just wanted to share with you all, who obviously also admire her work, that I was privileged--just this week--to see the traveling Rau Collection here in Portland, reportedly its premier showing in America. Included among the 95 framed artworks is one by Mary Cassatt.

It just blew me away... a woman, seated in profile, breast-feeding a small child. Eloquent. A large, handsome painting... wait a minute, I walk closer. A pastel. A pastel done on plain brown paper. Just astonishing. This large, important piece had never before been shown in public!

Watch for The Rau Collection, folks. This one painting is worth the price of admission!

Welcome Jeryn! I hope that you will read the book and join us here. It is a thin book and a quick read. Theron read the whole book today. I think you would enjoy the book especially just after seeing the painting that you described.

Joan

Bright's Disease is a historical classification of kidney diseases that would be described in modern medicine as acute or chronic nephritis. The term is no longer used, as diseases are now classified according to their more fully-understood etiologies.

It is typically denoted by the presence of albumen in the urine, and frequently accompanied by edema.

These associated symptoms in connection with kidney disease were first described in 1827 by Dr. Richard Bright. Since that time, it has been established that the symptoms, instead of being, as was formerly supposed, the result of one form of disease of the kidneys, may be dependent on various morbid conditions of those organs. Thus, the term Bright's disease, which is retained in medical nomenclature in honor of Dr. Bright, must be understood as having a strictly historical application.

The symptoms are usually of a severe nature. Back pain, vomiting and fever commonly signal an attack. Edema, varying in degree from slight puffiness of the face to an accumulation of fluid sufficient to distend the whole body, and sometimes severely restrict breathing, is a very common ailment. The urine is reduced in quantity, is of dark, smoky or bloody color, and exhibits to chemical reaction the presence of a large amount of albumen, while, under the microscope, blood corpuscles and casts, as above mentioned, are found in abundance.

This state of acute inflammation may severely limit normal daily activities, and if left unchecked, may lead to one of the chronic forms of Bright's disease. In many cases though, the inflammation is reduced, marked by increased urine output and the gradual disappearance of its albumen and other abnormal by-products. A reduction in edema and a rapid recovery of strength usually follows.

Treatment includes bed rest and limiting the intake of water, sodium, and proteins, and, if necessary, dialysis; antibiotics are given to halt infections (e.g., streptococcal) invasion. The disease occurs more frequently among the young. About 95% of patients recover from the acute phase of the disease; however, if glomerulonephritis becomes chronic, renal damage results after many years, causing kidney failure.

We need to remember that, in Lydia Cassatt's time, there were no antibiotics and no dialysis. There also, of course, were no kidney transplants. Therefore, many more people died of kidney disease then than would today. Among those who died of this disease in the nineteenth century were President Chester Alan Arthur (1829-1886), and the wife of President Woodrow Wilson.
______________________________________________________________________

I was also surprised to learn from this book that Edgar Degas, also one of my favorite artists, suffered from macular degeneration and feared he would eventually go blind. This disease, while not fatal, can be devastating to someone whose whole life is directed toward seeing the world in all its glorious color. In the book, he is depicted as someone who understood what Lydia was going through, and it's easy to see why that would be so.

Still, despite all the talk of illness, this book so far has been an uplifting experience for me, and I'm glad it was selected for discussion.

Good Morning Everyone ,

It is February 1st; so let's transport ourselves to Paris in September of 1878 and begin our discussion of the book, Lydia Cassatt Reading the Morning Paper.

Each of the five chapters of this book is focused around one of Mary Cassatts paintings of her sister, Lydia. What do you thinK is the author's purpose in centering a work of fiction around these paintings?

Why do you think the author tells this story from Lydia's point of view? What is the advantage of using this point of view?

I have links to many of Mary Cassatt's paintings and to her biographical information in the heading. Also there is a link to an interview with the author. You might like to look at the interview as the author tells us why she wrote the book as well as how she came up with the story. Here is the link to the interview Author Interview . The link is also in the heading so that it will available to us at all times during the discussion.

So please join us as we talk about this "tender" story and look at some of Mary Cassatt's paintings.

Joan

MARY CASSATT!! Mary Cassatt special this morning on HBOE at 11 am!!

Thanks Ginny!!

Joan

The Cassatt program is not on HBOE here in my area, so I thought I'd come in and post a few words.

Harriet Chessman is very clever in the way she begins this book. Mary ( May ) Cassatt calls to Lydia to ask her if she'll pose. Right away we know that Lydia is the model, and May is the artist, passive and active roles. Not much later we learn that Lydia is not well. Her physical weakness is a brilliant contrast to her sister's good health and vitality.

Then Chessman begins her description of their environment, Paris, a description that runs throughout the book, as do descriptions of the characters and the people they see. The tone is gentle and loving, well-suited for the themes of Cassatt's paintings -- a woman who is not well and children, for the most part. Life and death.

The reader immediately feels the tone of the book, and settles back for a plesant session of reading.

Mal

The paintings of Lydia capture the imagination of the viewer. One cannot experience these paintings without wondering "Who is this woman". She is obviously well to do as evidenced by the gowns and the poses. Learning that she is the artist's sister opens the door to speculation as to why she was used as a model and what was the family like. This author takes us into the world of Mary Cassett, as seen by her older sister and model.

Mary Cassatt was/is one of the primier impressionists of art world. By narrating the book from the point of view of the model, her sister Lydia, the author is free to explore the relationship in a more intimate way. Here she can imagine the feelings of one who sees being an artist as a more fulfilling life. While Lydia is shown to be an excellent model, the relationship of "older sister" has put a very different slant on the story.

Let us savor this intimate look at the Parisian art scene in the late 1880s. And into the family of a prominent industrialist who has taken his family to many parts of the western world.

Theron

Through the five paintings in the book and through the chosen point of view, I can see how much May loved Lyddy and art. May's relationship with her sister, Lydia, and her love of art is so closely interwined that, I feel, it is impossible to learn about one without the other one.

Theoron writes, "By narrating the book from the point of view of the model, her sister Lydia, the author is free to explore the relationship in a more intimate way." That is what I am trying to write.

Mal, Thanks for your well organized post.

Theron, your post sheds much light on the author's purpose .Well said.

Hats, Welcome to the discussion! It is so good to see you here. Your point about Mary's love for Lydia is very important.

There is so little that is actually known about Lydia. She kept to herself. Since this is a work of fiction, the fact that nothing is recorded about Lydia's personal life allows the author the liberty to create a personal life for her. She stays true to the real Lydia by recounting her life through her memories.

I hope that others will come in and comment on this.

We watched a cd this afternoon titled Mary Cassatt: A Brush with Independence. It was very good and brought some of the things that have been said here as well as much more. It did talk about the fact that nothing is known as Lydia's personal life. It brought out the fact that Both Mary and Lydia enjoyed dressing in the latest fashions. They wore fine clothes and owned many of them. I had noticed as I looked at the paintings that Lydia seemed to be always dressed in the latest fashion of the time.

Horselover, you brought out in your informative post yesterday that we must remember the time in which these people lived as we read and discuss the book. There are many things that would be different now.

Joan

Good morning, everyone.

My favorite Cassatt painting is "Little Girl in a Blue Armchair." With the child sprawled on the chair in the way she is, it was a very unconventional painting for that time. Not easy to paint, either, because of the perspective. I speak as an artist here.

On Page 35 Lydia says that Dégas painted part of the background of that painting. What was Mary Cassatt thinking? I'd no more let another artist touch something I was painting than serve baked stuffed sneakers for dinner!

Chessman hints about a romance between Cassatt and Dégas. Do you think they were lovers? In so many ways, Mary Cassatt was a woman way ahead of her time, wasn't she? I wonder what the real Lydia thought about her little sister's behavior?

Little Girl in a Blue Armchair

Mal

I Have been through all the paintings in the heading and the Little Girl in a Blue Armchair is my favorite as it is so natural as that is the way a little girl would be stretched out on a armchair.

I don't have my book yet but what paintings I have seen so far are well done and Beautiful.

Ginger

Mal, I guess we like the same Search Engine and I like this "Girl in the Blue Armchair" too among those we have HERE There is a self portrait of Mary Cassatt and one of her mother reading "Le Figaro" a newspaper still running today, I have that newspaper in my favorites when I want to read what France is doing today. I love Mary C. paintings, they are so soft almost like pastels.

Eloïse

Good Morning Everyone,

It is good to see you , Mal , Ginger and Eloise. Mary Cassatt has truly given us numerous paintings that rouse our interest . They are very beautiful and give us much to think about. The paintings make us wonder about her life and why she painted the subjects that she did.

The first chapter of the book introduces us to the painting from which the book's title comes. What do you think is the signifigance of the fact that Lydia is reading a newspaper in this painting? Why does Chessman use it as the first painting?

As we look at this chapter we are introduced to Lydia and learn about her illness. Do you feel that her illness dominates her life or is she able to over come its physical limitations?

We are also introduced to the relationship between Mary and Degas. Do you feel that Lydia is jealous of Degas? If so why?

There is really much to think about here.

Joan

I think the author wanted us to understand the social structure of the times. The newspaper represents an upper/upper middle class status when read by a woman at that time. It also shows an independent spirit in a woman since the usual duties of a woman did not require that she be informed by any means other than what the male head of the household told her. Here we are introduced to a family that embraces the idea of an independant spirit in a world that for the most part rejects the idea of a woman having any role other than wife and mother.
Lydia deals with her illness as an inconvenience to her lifestyle. While acute attcks force her to take to her bed, it would not be unthinkable for one with this disease to become an invalid. Lydia does not let this happen to her.
We do not find out the specific relationship between Degas and Mary in this book. We can see that the relationship has an affect on Lydia. She appears to feel that Degas is infringing on her relationship with Mary. Whether this was true in life will never be known. We must remember that there is little known about Lydia and this story is "Stylized Fiction" where the author is free to invent the subject's attitudes.
I find it very interesting that the author has diciplined herself to only discuss in detail the paintings that have Lydia as a model. It would be easy to drift off into the other paintings that Mary Cassatt created. In Mary, we have a superb artist who could evoke deep responses from the viewer regardless of the subject. This book focuses our attention on the relationship of the sisters and on Lydia.

Theron

Great questions, Joan, how far in the book can we range in our answers? The whole thing? Love all the comments here.

If we're taking the whole book I will have to say one thing that surprised me about the painting of Lydia Cassatt Reading the Morning Paper, well a lot of things surprised me, without looking back. One thing was that posing appears to be hard work, and she was ill. So she looked on it as some kind of votary or gift of herself, I thought that was interesting, that whole concept, I don't want to get into it if we're limiting ourselves to the first part. But here on page 37 you can get some of that feeling, "I think about how I've created something with May, something that was not on earth before."…the concept that the model is "creating" is strange, to me. When an artist paints a landscape, does the landscape feel it has assisted in creation? I think that's an odd yet touching premise and says a lot about Lydia Cassatt.

I also did not know that May was an abbreviation of Mary, that's new. I liked the play on words about Bright's disease on page 19, the author has a very atmospheric way of writing, for instance on page 44, "I cherish the way the room fills with quiet, like a bowl filing with milk." That simile like so many other figures of speech in the book, paints (with words) indelible pictures for the reader, very unique I think.

Why did Cassatt start with that particular painting, good good question. I can't help notice, and I'm not sure it's ALL me, but TO ME the Lydia in this painting (Lydia Cassatt Reading the Morning Paper) looks very different from the Lydia in the others? To me. Is she younger? What is the difference? If you put that painting up against the last one I would not have said they were the same woman. I know somebody who looks like the first one, almost a dead ringer, she changes in the last. It was a good way to introduce the entire subject, I wonder if the paintings are in order chronologically?

Lydia does seem, to me, to be a bit jealous of her sister's time with Degas. She compares him to a Cyclops on page 17, and says, "And he does eat people, I know, one friend after another." She seems worried, I can't tell if it's jealousy or worry for her sister's sake, but she doesn't trust Degas, that's for sure. At that time was Degas famous, so that his interest in Cassatt would be flattering?

Frankly that seems a strange household to me, very insular.

Good point, Joan, on the Narrator, told from the point of view of Lydia, so it's in the first person, and the author has chosen to let us see all this through her eyes. Whether or not what she's saying is slanted is something the reader will figure out for himself.

I really like the way the book is constructed, you read a bit and then come to the painting you're discussing. I must admit I peeked several times, I like that writing presentation and technique!

I don't want to go too much further till I find out how far we can discuss?

ginny

THERON, Harriet Chessman mentions paintings besides the ones of Lydia in this book, among them the Little Girl in the Blue Armchair. I agree with your conclusion about the painting of Lydia reading the newspaper.

GINNY, aren't all families insular in a way? I don't see much strange about the Cassatt family. Perhaps that's because I grew up in a household where artistic talent was nurtured, and certain allowances were made because of it. My own family, my kids and I, were certainly not typical because of the artistic strand running through it. Is that what you mean by strange?

It interests me that this book contains a story within a story, both told by Lydia. On the page following the title page of each chapter there are a few sentences, which are continued on the page before the next chapter. It seems to me that this little story, which embraces the larger one, has no ending. Because Lydia died?

Mal

Like Ginny, I love the layout of the book. While reading the chapters, I look back and forth at the paintings. I always miss something in the painting. I might miss the color of the chair, the tilt of Lydia's head, the flowers or the color of her dress. I think it must be impossible to enjoy a painting in one glance.

As far as Lydia's illness, I think she did not allow the illness to overcome her. She overcame the limitations of the illness. Modeling for Mary became Lydia's way to deal with illness. While Mary painted, Lydia thought about her circumstances. In the chapter called TEA,Lydia doesn't give into fatique while holding the teacup for such a long period.

"I hold the pose, in joyful relief that I am here to hold it. I welcome even the ache in my arms, the tingling in my fingers, the urge to move."

"Illness has this edge of grace. If the illness lifts, even for a few days, and one can enter the world again, all things shine with clarity and value. This cup, so light, becomes a miracle."

If I am reading the wrong chapter, I apologize.

Just stopping in for a minute to let you all know that commenting on the whole book is what I had in mind with the questions. I think we can find things throughout the book that reference the answers to the questions brought up.

I will be back later to comment on each post for today. I received a call at 6:25 AM that my granddaughter is giving birth to my first great grandchild this morning. I am off to the hospital , hoping to be there for the birth!

Joan

Mal - My comment was not intended to imply that the author did not mention other paintings but that it would be difficult for some authors to avoid trying to "flesh out" the manuscript with more comments about other paintings. I think all readers would be aware that Mary painted other subjects, but this book is really about Lydia and the paintings she posed for. Sorry I did not make that clear.

Theron

JOAN, what exciting news! Be sure to let us know about the baby after he or she is born!

Mal

Congratulations, Joan!!

I like the way the author wrote the chapters around each of the five paintings of Mary Cassatt's sister. I don't know the author's purpose, I can only guess they may have been her favorites. There are other paintings of Lydia that Mary Cassatt painted I would have included.....like those at the opera.
As far as the author telling this story from Lydia's point of view, I cannot help but wonder if the author had a sister or someone she loved and cared for that was very ill.
Re the newspaper in the first painting and the cover of this book...Mary Cassatt also painted some of her mother reading the paper. It tells me the Cassatt family had servants and plenty of time for reading and leisurely pastimes. Mary Cassatt also used her servants and maids for models in many of her painting, however they were not shown doing work but rather with children or pets or just looking out the window.
I felt a lot of anxiety when first starting to read this book....that it was going to be a sad story about illness and dying. But I came away with the feeling that it was about living or how you live rather than dying or dying alone.
Not to give any of the story away, I'll reserve my comment on #5 about Degas.

Mal ~ I thought part of my book was missing a page because the last of those few sentences was never complete ?

Joan Grimes ~ Oh I hope you have a new great-grandchild by the time you read this and that all is well. Edit: Well CongratulationsI like the way the author wrote the chapters around each of the five paintings of Mary Cassatt's sister. I don't know the author's purpose, I can only guess they may have been her favorites. There are other paintings of Lydia that Mary Cassatt painted I would have included.....like those at the opera.
As far as the author telling this story from Lydia's point of view, I cannot help but wonder if the author had a sister or someone she loved and cared for that was very ill.
Re the newspaper in the first painting and the cover of this book...Mary Cassatt also painting some of her mother reading the paper. It tells me the Cassatt family had servants and plenty of time for reading and leisurely pastimes. Mary Cassatt also used her servants and maids for models in many of her painting, however they were not shown doing work but rather with children or pets or just looking out the window.
I felt a lot of anxiety when first starting to read this book....that it was going to be a sad story about illness and dying. But I came away with the feeling that it was about living or how you live rather than dying or dying alone.
Not to give any of the story away, I'll reserve my comment on #5 about Degas.

Mal ~ I thought part of my book was missing a page because the last of those few sentences was never complete ?

Joan Grimes ~ Oh I hope you have a new great-grandchild by the time you read this and that all is well. Edit: Congratulations on the new great-granddaughter !!

Emma

Congratulations, ,Great Grandmother Joan G!!! And Theron!!! (father, that is) hahaahah Wonderful, bring photos!!!

Oops ! Would someone please fix my post ? I seem to have posted twice while trying to edit my message, now I'm told I do not have access to it.
Emma

I only see one, Emma? Looks good, too, it's a good post.

ginny

Ginny ~ only one post but some of the same thing got repeated when I was trying to edit. Oh well.....no problem.

Congratulations to Joan Grimes on the birth of her first great grandchild. Chloe Grace was born yesterday. You can see pictures of this sweet little girl HERE. JOAN, I'll bet your mother is thrilled!

Mal

Please accept my apologies for being absent here most of yesterday and this morning.

Thanks to all of you for the nice comments on my being a great grandmother.

Mal thanks for posting the link to the photos.

Now I am going to get back to business of discussing the book and bring up some more points for discussion. I will try to comment on those points that have been made later.

Be right back with questions to talk about.

Joan

What a sweet baby! Congratulations, Joan.

Look at the following and express your thoughts:

How does Lydia react to Degas telling her , "You show me how to live, if only I could do it as you do." What does he mean by this?

How does Lydia feel about being the passive sitter rather than the active artist?

Lydia says that she holds dear her time with her sister, but she feels guilty that she keeps Mary from her painting, especially at the times that Mary spends time nursing her when she has a severe bout of her illness. How is this shown in the story ? How does Mary feel about caring for for Lydia during the bouts of illness?

Joan

Joan, Let me add my congratulations to the others. It must be wonderful to be a great grandmother. Since I have only two grandchildren at present, and they are age nine and five, I may not get to enjoy that thrill for a long time if ever.
________________________________________________________________________

Many posters commented that Lydia "did not allow the illness to overcome her. She overcame the limitations of the illness." I think that the way people can overcome almost any serious illness or setback in their lives is to focus on the meaning their lives still have for themselves and others. Mary Cassatt helped give meaning to her sister's life by coaxing her to pose and letting her know how important this contribution was to her art. Lydia looked forward to these sessions, despite her illness, and seemed to actually learn about herself from the paintings just as we learn about her in this way. The posing is important to Lydia because she wishes to be remembered after she is gone. "Remember me," she thinks. "Don't allow me to be forgotten." She sees the paintings as a message from her sister that says her time on earth will be recorded and remembered.

Lydia's relationship with Degas changes over time. At first, she thinks of him as a growling bear and she fears his sharp wit. But as he continues to visit the studio, and later their home, Lydia realizes that beneath the tough exterior there is great compassion and understanding. He is the only one who will discuss with her the fact that she is dying, and he lets her talk about what this means to her.

Lydia does realize that her sister is having an affair with Degas, since she is able to see them alone together. She sees the way he looks at May, the way he touches her, and the lovely expensive necklace he gives her as a gift. I don't think Lydia is jealous of her sister's happiness. But she does wonder what it would be like if she were not ill and could have a relationship with such a man who would see into her soul.
______________________________________________________________________

For anyone who has helped a loved one through a serious or terminal illness, this book is an aid to understanding how the afflicted person feels during the various stages of illness. At times, when the pain and weakness subsides, Lydia is happy to have a reason to go out and people to spend the afternoon with. But when she becomes very sick, she recedes form the world and the people around her. "And then I am inside my illness again. All that happens means nothing to me--the long walk out of May's studio to the street, the cab ride home. I am half-aware that I have ceased to care what anyone thinks of me." She sometimes passes days in this way, hypersensitive to touch and sound, and hoping the illness will "decide to go away."

Living with a terminal illness is far from easy. It is difficult for the patient and the caregiver. Lydia lives through her hardest days trying to say and do what will please Mary and the family. While Mary lives to react in a way which will make Lydia happy. Each is afraid or is unaware how to tackle the hard subject of chronic pain, discomfort and finally, death. Oddly, Mary could capture the "true" Lydia in her paintings.

"I see something else, but I find it difficult to say this to May. It's illness she's discovered. I gaze at the shadows around the woman's eyes (my eyes), the muted color of her mouth (my mouth), the downturned lips."

In the book, I think that each painting shows a weaker, a more fragile Lydia. To me, in the first painting, she seems at her strongest.

I think at times Lydia did feel envious of the relationship Mary had with Degas. Lydia knew her life would be cut short, and she would never have the chance to experience getting married and having children.

I lived with my sister and mother who died of terminal illness. It is very difficult to talk about what is truly bothering you. No one wants to hurt or make the other person uncomfortable or sad. I know, intellectually, with my head, there is a better way to act.

Hats, I think you are correct in pointing out that the paintings portray an increasingly weaker and more fragile Lydia. As an artist, this was probably the only way Mary could approach the subject of Lydia's inevitable death. And, in this book at least, Lydia understood this and appreciated her sister's efforts to give meaning and immortality to Lydia's suffering. "I can't always tell May my thoughts," Lydia says, "because she can't bear to face illness or death. My whole family's like that." Degas was able to approach the subject more directly, and Lydia appreciated this too. It gave her the opportunity to voice some of her innermost fears, and receive some measure of reassurance.

Lydia feels a little envy of her sister's artistic ability. "For a moment I wonder what it would be like to be an artist. How does a woman make such a choice? Or is it something that comes to one, like a gift from heaven?" The bond between these two sisters is obviously very close. This is evident from the way they walk arm in arm, and from the tender way May cares for Lyddy when she is sick, feverish, and nauseous.

Lydia would like to live long enough to marry and have children. But she does not have a totally romantic notion of marriage. "Of course marriage isn't the solution to all of life's ills. It can bring boatloads of ills, if one is unlucky--think how unhappy people can be, yoked together. That's what I admire about Flaubert, how he sees that, and makes even the dullest marriage into an interesting story." Lydia is referring to the unhappy marriage of Emma Bovary (I read that book years ago in college). Don't you all find Lydia's choice of reading matter interesting?

Madame Bovary was first published in 1857. We see Lydia reading it 21 years later. When this book was first published, it was considered scandalous, I believe. I presume that even 20 years later it still had the reputation of being something "nice" young women shouldn't read. Lydia's reading it reinforces the idea that the Cassatt family was quite liberal and avant garde.

I imagine that Harriet Chessman did a great deal more research for this book besides studying Mary Cassatt's paintings, don't you? Her choice of paintings of Lydia which showed her declining health was very wise.

May Cassatt would not talk about Lydia's illness. Do you think that was because she didn't like illness, or she didn't like to think her sister was going to die, or was it a combination of both?

Dégas comes across as quite a man about town. It seems as if Lydia was as attracted to him as much as she was repulsed. Joan has asked about Dégas' saying to Lydia, "You show me how to live, if only I could do it as you do." Lydia lived an uncomplicated, philosophical, pure life. Perhaps this was what Dégas was talking about.

Mal

Lydia changed her opinion of Degas after his statement to her. Instead of a Growling Bear he was now a person with both feelings and insight. He thereby told her that he understood the illness and was proud of her for the way she made the most of the time when she was not "locked inside her illness"
The role of Model seems to suit Lydia. She seems to think that holding the pose is more difficult than the painting even though she really would like to be able to paint the beauty that she sees.Still, this is her "little sister" and she would do anything she could to make Mary happy.
One thing thaat is brought out is that Lydia fights the bouts with her illness in order to be well enough for May to go to her studio and paint. May does not find caring for Lydia to be a chore so much as a labor of love. While she would prefer that lydia be healthy, she does her best to understand the illness even though she woud not discuss this with her sister.

Theron

I think Lydia wanted to go on being the model in these paintings (like someone else said) so people would always remember her. I do believe Mary Cassatt also needed Lydia to be in her paintings for the same reason....to remember her. Then too Mary was able to keep a close watch after her sister at the same time and tend to her needs. If my math is correct Lydia was only 45 when she died and Mary died at age 82. Mary went on to care for her ill mother after Lydia died. I think Mary Cassatt was a very caring person and that closeness of her mother and child paintings show that circle of love.
Mary was also in her own Cassatt world where her subjects were known to her mostly whereas Degas and others often painted strangers in bars, parks, racetracks or on the streets.
Towards Lydia's end I feel in this book anyway, that she was falling in love with Degas and he with her. Had she lived a bit longer who knows ....

I know it's a little off Lydia, but I love this painting by Mary Stevenson Cassatt "Offering the Panal to the Bullfighter, 1873"...Panal -- Spanish for honeycomb or sponge sugar, dipped in water to provide energy and quench thirst.
There are eleven (?) known paintings with Lydia. Also you may want to check this webpage out Art/4/2day -- click on Cassatt or scroll down to Mary Stevenson Cassatt.

Emma

I learned long ago that it does no good to complain or brood about something you can't do anything about. Perhaps Lydia was the same way about her illness. It doesn't mean she didn't think about how things might have been if hadn't contracted it.

On Page 38 after May and Lydia had been playing their "three wishes" game, Chessman has Lydia think:

". . . and I think how health is only the beginning of my most ardent wish. To live in that world you made, I wish to say, that creamy world of no difficulty, no blood. To know another's touch, and to have children of my own like Aleck's, and a life like a shell curling in on itself, glistening and clean on the sand, rolled in salt water, rolled and rolled, spent and spending."

This is a wistful and poignant piece of writing. It's the way I have felt sometimes about novels I write where the world is of my own making.

Mal

Mal, I came here to mention the very quote you used above. I have not yet finished the book but that is the passage that I love the most so far. What a lovely image it makes.

What I have always taken from Mary Cassatt's art is the feeling of a female sensibility, a very special world separate from that of maleness. Not better than, just different. I have no sisters, had no daughters, have three sons. I have lived most of my life in a more male centered household. I cherish times of femaleness with friends. Lydia says of Degas, "His presence changes things." I find that to be true. A male presence does change things. I don't mean to sound anti men, I am not. Love those sons!! I also love the world of women and children engaged in mundane activities that Mary Cassat brings to life so well. Afterall, joy is found in the small things. The photos of Joan's new great granddaughter with her mother fit right into this theme. Joan did you plan this or is it serendipity??

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for the messages of congratulations on my new great grandchild.

In summing up the comments so far thanks to Theron, Mal,Ginny,Emma Barb, Hats, Horselover, and Paige for your insightful remarks on the questions that have been brought up for discussion.

Theron, you mentioned the social structure of the times. This seems to me to be quite important in the whole situation of the characters in this novel. Without wealth none of this life that is led by the Cassatt family could have taken place. You also mention the independent spirit of a woman that is shown in this novel which is such a departure from the normal position of a woman in a society where a woman's role is that of wife and mother. This is a something that might be considered a central theme for a discussion of this novel.

Ginny, I like your comment about the author's "atmospheric way of writing". The author really does use many figures of speech in her writing. I love the pictures she paints with her words. She makes the scenes very vivid to me. You ask if Degas was famous at the time. Yes , he had already made quite a name for himself when Mary Cassatt met him.

Mal your comment about the book containing a story within a story , both told by Lydia, is an excellent point to bring out.

Horselover. thanks for your insight on living with someone with a terminal illness. It is necessary to understand those things to really understand both Lydia and Mary. You mention Flaubert and Madame Bovary. We read and discussed Madame Bovary here last year in April. We had discussion in English that I led and one in French that Eloise led.

Mal you point out that Madame Bovary was considered scandalous at that time and that it was probably something that a "nice " young woman would not be reading. You are certainly right that this reinforces the fact that the Cassatt family was quite different from most families of the time.

Paige, I like your comments about the world of women and children. You know I had not thought of how those photos of my granddaughter and her child fit right in with one of the themes here but it really does.

Mal you also brought that to my attention with the beautiful Cassatt painting that you used on your your card to me. I loved it. The child in the painting even has red hair like our Chloe. I loved it!

Emma Barb, I also felt that the author was suggesting to us that there might have been an attraction between Lydia and Degas if things had been different.

You all have mention important and interesting things that this book brings out. You seem to agree on the most important things about it.

Chessman did much research to write this novel. She says that she decided to tell the story through Lydia's eyes because nothing is really known about Lydia except that she posed for Mary and that she was ill with Bright's disease.

Joan

Let's talk about Paris now. Describe Paris in the late 1800s through Lydia's eyes. How is it a different place from the Philadelphia she knows so well? Discuss what she means by being "in love with this bright and foreign life."

If you haven't been there you can see it through Lydia's eyes. I love seeing it through her eyes and comparing it with what it looks like today.

Joan

I had my passport stamped and all ready to drive to Paris while on a visit to Germany but never made it. Was very disappointed because all I could think about was the art museums I wanted to visit. I lived in Philadelphia as a young child (but certainly not when the Cassatts lived there....ha). Philadelphia is Philadelphia....what I mean is I don't think it's changed all that much over the years. Now Paris I would imagine is quite different. I'll have to wait and read all the comments from those of you who have been there.
Emma

I was in Paris for only a few days in the 70's with my husband, who had business there. Since he left early in the morning and came back to the hotel around 7 p.m., I was on my own a good part of the time to see what I could see.

We stayed at a funny little hotel a Parisian friend, Henri H., a scientist who worked for my husband in the States, had told us about. What stands out about that place are the bidet ( I'd never seen one before ), meeting a real Russian in the elevator, and hearing the most gorgeous soprano voice singing opera across the courtyard which separated other buildings from the building the hotel was in.

The first morning I was afraid to go out alone, but got so hungry that by noon I was forced to go. I had seen a restaurant on the boulevard the small street where the hotel was located ran off, so walked up a flight of stairs and went in. I thought I knew some French, but when I sat down at a table and looked at the menu I realized how lacking I was. I pointed at something and the waiter brought me a plate of French hot dogs and beans.

I went back to the street and hailed a taxi. Finally managed to get through to the driver that I wanted to go to the Jeu de Paumes. He practically drove up the stairs so I wouldn't have to walk far. This was my first exposure to kindness from Parisians because of my handicap. It surprised me because I'd heard how the French did not like Americans.

I was looking for the Monet Nymphéas, but didn't know where they were. Ended up at a Max Ernst show. I was not much into surrealism at that time, but looked at all the paintings and turned to go downstairs and out. As I did, a man in a uniform at the other side of the gallery began gesticulating and calling to me. I couldn't imagine what I'd done wrong. He came over, took me by the arm, and walked me to an elevator. The second kindness displayed to me. There were more.

The elevator's doors opened on the Nymphéas, and I spent a heavenly time there looking at them.

Our friend's brother and his wife drove us to several different places, including Place Pigalle, by Le Moulin Rouge, and on another day to the Left Bank. The day we went there, we had also gone to Notre Dame, the first time I heard a mass in French.

It was the first of May. Women were everywhere selling lilies of the valley ( muguets bois ). When we went over to the Left Bank we ran into the craziest traffic jam I'd ever been in in my life. The students were May Day wild, really, and the cars were driven without any sort of rhyme or reason. I'll never know how Henri's brother got us out of there.

On the weeknd, I believe it was, we went to the famous Paris Flea Market. Then we headed toward the country where Henri's parents lived. That is to say, we flew. I think Henri's brother drove 90 miles an hour to get there. When we arrived, Madame offered us a huge meal, many courses, many kinds of wine, all prepared by her cook and served by her maid. I was very fortunate to see a private home on that trip to France.

Alone I went to the Galéries Lafayette, a department store such as I'd never seen. One evening we went to Montmartre, flowers and artists everywhere. We ate at a kind of Provencal restaurant. I had escargots and moules for the first time. At another restaurant down a steep flight of stairs to what looked like a wine cellar, we had rare steaks on wooden boards. In yet another, there was the distinct smell of hashish ( which is different from the smell of Gaulois cigarettes. Oh, boy, are they strong! ) I also went to Le Drugstore, which was a big disappointment to me. Why should I travel so far to see what I see at home?

I didn't want to leave Paris and go to Switzerland, but my husband had business in Zurich. That was quite a different experience from being in Paris. The Swiss seemed cold compared to the French, and they weren't a quarter as kind to me as French people were.

Paris has the same kind of vitality as New York City, but in a different, rather intoxicating way. What Lydia describes still existed when I was in Paris. My impression of that city was "gray", brilliant at night with lights, and brightened with flowers, sidewalk cafés and people carrying long loaves of bread under their arms as they headed home from work, or at any time of day.

My sister and her professor husband spent a sabbatical year living in Paris. While there one of their daughters studied at the Sorbonne. How lucky they were!

Mal

mal -- what courage it takes all these years later for a person with physical limitations to tackle paris. mes compliments. it sounds as though you enjoyed many happy moments there.

i understand one of degas' bronzes from a private collection sold at auction yesterday -- the one of the little girl that is in several museums, hands behind her back.

Fairwinds, not only did I tackle Paris, I went to the Hague, Zurich, Brussels and London. I was in my 40's then, but I'd do it again in a minute today if I had the money to get myself, my wheelchair and my daughter over there to push me all over the place.

Mal

i for one will hold on to the hope for you.

Hi fairwinds,

Great to see you posting. How is that arm?

Mal, I found your memories of your trip very interesting. I enjoyed hearing how nice the Parisians were to you. I encountered that same care for people who need help when we were there last year. I was still suffering from plantar facitis. I had been off my feet most of the time for a couple of months. My leg muscles were so week and I was having a terrible time walking. I used a walking stick. Everyone offered to help. I was taken to elevators in several places because of this. At Versaille they especially helpful. When I entered the door they came to meet me asking if I they could take me to an elevator which is only used by the staff and handicapped people. They were so very nice.

I also enjoyed hearing about the sites you saw while there.

Lydia tells us right in the beginning of the book that their apartment is in the"9ème arrondissenent". Now I have several links for all of you . Here is a link to a map of the area where Mary and Lydia Cassatt lived. Map of the 9th arrondissement of Paris

Here is a page of photos of some of the buildings and sites located in the area. Lydia mentions that their apartment is on avenue Trudaine. On this page you see a photo of a door on avenue Trudaine. Photos from the 9th arrondissement

Lydia talks about "seeing "the white and cream buidings scrambling up the hill of Montmartre, (La Butte de Montmartre) among trees and gardens. here is a link to a photo looking up the hill today. It also has links to old photos along the side of the page. The site is in French but the photos are great. La Butte de Montmartre .

Here is a link to one of my favorite paintings. It is of Montmartre by Pissaro. Monmartre Ensoleillé It probably looks more like the time that Lydia and Mary lived there than the photos do. However it is still easy to recognize the area today.

Here is a link in English that gives some history of Montmartre. Montmartre

It think most American tourists think of Montmartre of jus the area on the hill but you see it covers much more area than that.

Joan

Im not coming in on this discussion but it is interesting to see the opinions of others .Paris is the most fascinating city for any tourist I was there last year and the year before and visited most of the places your talking about as my wife likes to call it "her spritual home " I liked the Musée d'Orsey where a lot of famous paintings are http://www.musee-orsay.fr/ORSAY/orsaygb/HTML.NSF/By+Filename/mosimple+index?OpenDocument and the Louvre is just over the road a short walk away. Monmarte today is a very vibrant place like most of France a mecca for artists . Lots of areas are still around today very similar to what they were around the time Mary painted. You get the very feeling of history when you walk around there . Incidentaly Mary Cassat is one of my favourite artists in case your wondering . She took instruction from Degas like many artists do when painting together you can see his influence on many of her paintings.Impressionists "the painters of light"

I bought the book today Joan because of you. This is too interesting to pass up and I think this book is a keeper. While I was in the book store, I read almost half of it right then and there. I walked through those lines like if I was right there, a sign of a good book.

This time is just want to say how I enjoy public transportation in Paris. The RER (I don't know the long version) is a train in between the Metro and the long distance trains. It takes you everywhere at a very reasonable price from the airport to the center. The gare the Lyon is my favorite train station because something wonderful happened to me there, I will say what it is later and because I always take a hotel close to it because it is the train station from where you board for Switzerland where my son lives. Also it is close to the hotel I like and from there you can walk to the center of Paris where the action is.

Back later about the book. I love this discussion where you read about my favorite place after home, France.

Eloïse

fairwinds ~ I hope your arm is healing nicely.

Joan Grimes ~ I'm dealing with plantar facitis about six weeks, the doctor won't give me anything that might upset my stomach. I hope you are okay now.

Thanks to all who provided links.
I read where Mary Cassatt was only 7 yrs old the first time she stayed in Paris with her family.

I'm so thankful cararact surgery today is so successful (I have lens implants in both eyes). In her later years, Mary Cassatt twice had cataract surgery that was a failure affecting both her art and quality of life. Degas also gave up painting (as you know) because of failed eyesight.
Art, Vision & the Disordered Eye

Emma

thnks, emma and joan. i am so enjoying this discussion. but my "grosse fracture" keeps me lying low. the 9th arrndt. would not be my choice of neighborhoods...not that it matters.

I really don't know much about Paris. I have been there 4 times with Joan as a guide. We have walked from our hotel in Montparnasse to the local attractions.
The Metro entrance is about 2 blocks from the hotel and we take that to other parts of the city. We have walked up the hill to Sacré Coeur where the "Statue Mimes" stand, appearing to be sculpture until one notices that they do on occasion move.
We have walked in the area where Mary Cassatt's studio was located. I can only imagine the differences! Horses and carriages where there are now autos by the hundreds! The similarities are also astounding. Sidewalk cafés still make there presence known. The people still walk with a baguette under their arm. The Patisarié still has a beautiful pastry display in the window.
Remembering that 2 World Wars and the moving from an industrial revolution to a technology and information revolution have occured, it is amazing that so many things seem the same.

Theron

"I love Paris in the Springtime, I love Paris in the Fall..."

The first time we went to Paris, we foolishly stayed at an American Hotel whose main attractions were fancy bathrooms and a view of the Eiffel Tower. It was also a pretty central location for getting around.

I remember being surprised when we took the dinner cruise on the Seine to see all the reproductions of the Statue of Liberty everywhere, in all sizes. It reminded me that it was the French who had donated the statue, and I suppose they did not want us to forget this.

The food there was wonderful, in large expensive restaurants and in the cafes and bistros. We did have dinner at Maxime's, which was not the same as shown in the movie "Gigi." The tables were closer together and there would not have been room for those bulky dresses that were in fashion in her day.

I loved the sidewalk cafes everywhere where you could sit down with a coffee and pastry for as long as you liked and watch the world go by.

Of course, the paintings were fabulous (although the Louvre did not yet have the pyramid which was built later on). The impressionists were in a separate museum. And we also enjoyed visiting Rodin's house and seeing his sculpture. They say that Henry Ford invented mass production, but it was really Rodin. He would make many "copies" of a popular piece like "The Thinker." I liked his statue of Balzac.

Traveling was terrific in those days--no terrorist warnings, no searches at the airport. The only place where there were bomb threats was in London where they did search your purse at Parliament and at the large hotels. The Irish terrorists were a harbinger of things to come.
______________________________________________________________________

It was interesting to read Lyddy's memories of the Civil War back home in America. She describes the devastation it wrought on the land and on people's lives--"the long and bloody list of young men who entered the fight." Her brother Aleck hired a substitute, for which she was grateful, but others ahe knew had their "limbs blown off, chests yawning red, their horses foundering in the mud."

Lyddy also thinks about her old beau, Thomas, when she was young and still healthy. She thinks about a picnic at the lake, and dreams about what marriage to him would have been like:

"Maybe this is what marriage will be like, to sit together on a hill, in Pennsylvania, looking at the edges of a lake, now blue, now greenish gray, and to read to each other, thinking of large things--of Nature and Spirit--as we sit wrapped, rapt, in a cloud, a net, of affection."

Lydia never got a chance to find out what marriage would have been like for her. There might have been romantic times such as she describes and hard times as well. I feel sad that Lyddy missed out on her dreams, but she was also spared some of life's deep sorrows.

How does Lydia feel about being the passive sitter rather than the active artist? I have a feeling it endeared her to her sister for the many hours she spent with her when she was up to it.

These days it is a lot easier for the model to sit for a portrait. Most people I know take lots of photos first and the model sits for maybe five brief sessions during the stages of the painting. My former art instructor does a lot of commission work. She often keeps the costume, jewelry, etc. that the person wants in the painting to refer to and they put it on when the pose. Some people even borrow outfits and/or jewelry for the painting. I have been the model for a number of paintings. There were a couple of people in my art classes who painted me while I was working on a painting of my own. One time only my face was used in a series of five sports oil paintings that were a commission for a sports-restaurant. Funny thing is ... one night after the restaurant was closed someone robbed them and took all of the paintings. He also did a couple others of me that he sold to someone when he moved to Texas. This artist friend is deceased and was a very good artist by-the-way. I wonder where my paintings will show up some day or if they're in a private collection (ha).

fairwinds ~ I recall reading somewhere that Mary Cassatt spent some time in Antibes painting with Monet and some others. I would imagine you have seen some of her paintings.
Hope you're feeling better real soon.

Joan Grimes ~ there is a message for you in the Computer Generated Arts discussion.

Emma

I love all the posts here, the information and the perspectives. Fairwinds! So glad to see you again!!

I don't know what Paris or Philadelphia were like in the late 1800's but I recall Philadelphia in the 40's where I was born. We still had gas lamps in the street and lamp lighters, they still had door to door horse drawn milk delivery and they still had a big ice house down the street from which horse drawn carriages would issue forth, carrying ice to the housewives for their "ice boxes" early refrigerators, I remember that well enough.

I think this is an interesting question in the heading, Why do you think the author tells this story from Lydia’s point of view? What is the advantage of using this point of view?

One advantage might be credibility. I am not sure what sources the author used to put thoughts in Lydia's head but it would be easier, I think, to make up Lydia than Mary and in that way to reflect ON Mary or give a different perspective of the events, while casting some light on the little known Lydia. I am a bit surprised at the lack of citation at the end of the book, an Author's Note citing "superb scholarship on Mary Cassatt and the Impressionists," she might have mentioned a few of those works by name.

Are we, then, to take the words of Lydia as sheer fiction or not?

That's kind of where I waver.

Here is a passage that I had a bit of trouble understanding, maybe you all can shed some light on it:

She even began to post for him more often in the winter (and May Alcott died just after Christmas, the memory glancing into my mind like a bird, and flying off again, her face pale, the infection from childbirth ravaging her.) (page 48)

The next sentence on top of page 49 starts, "May still poses for Degas, probably more than I know."

I'm not sure I understand the insertion of this information about Alcott and the description or why it's there or what it's supposed to mean?

ginny

Lydia refers to Mary when she uses the diminutive, May, in the above quote.

I finished this book last night and intend to read it again and give it as a gift to a gardening friend who attends the art museums with me.

The author has such a talent for bringing the reader into the picture. Yes, she paints with her pen. Wish I could write like that!

Yes, Ann, I know, she goes from Louisa May Alcott right back into the book with no explanation of what the blockquoted information and italicized information MEANT, that's my point, thanks.

Why put that in there and italicize it, that's my question, when you go right back into your text of Mary (May) posing for Degas? Is there a connection? What does it MEAN?

ginny

Hello Everyone,

It is good to see all the posts here.

Well "the best laid plans of mice and men"... I did not get here yesterday. Three and a half hours in the eye doctor's office with Theron. He was seeing the doctor to get cataract surgery on his other eye scheduled. We spent 3and a half hours there. It sure did cut into the day. I also had to make and deliver an audio tape pronouncing the names of the artists in the new French exhibition at our museum. Then there were severe thunderstorms that made it necessary to unplug and find something else to occupy my time.

Ann Alden, it is so good to see you in this discussion! I also wish that could write like Chessman. Her word paintings are outstanding.

Ginny, the italicized words are random thoughts that Lydia is having as she poses or as she goes about her everyday activities. You say you do not understand the thought which states " and May Alcott died just after Christmas, the memory glancing into my mind like a bird, and flying off again, her face pale, the infection from childbirth ravaging her. I feel that Lydia is thinking about her own death and how fleeting the memory is of someone who is gone. Also the refernces to May Alcott who is a relative of Louisa May Alcott, connect the Cassatt family with the expatriate American community in Paris at that time. You ask if we are to take Lydia's words a sheer fiction. Lydia's character is sheer fiction other than the facts that she is Mary's sister,the subject in many of Mary's paintings, who died with Bright's disease. No one wrote about her . Mary destroyed all correspondence before she died.

Thanks, Ginny, for the information about Philadelphia in the 1940s. I know nothing about it until recent years. I feel that if one had lived during the time of the Cassatts and then been placed into either Paris or Philidelphia today that there would be much that was recognizable. I think Paris is made up of recognizable layers of history.

Emma Barb, do you think Lydia did all the posing to endear herself to her sister. Thanks for the comments on posing.

Horselover,

Thanks for the reminder of thesong:

Every time I look down on this timeless town
whether blue or gray be her skies.
Whether loud be her cheers or soft be her tears,
more and more do I realize:

I love Paris in the springtime.
I love Paris in the fall.
I love Paris in the winter when it drizzles,
I love Paris in the summer when it sizzles.

I love Paris every moment,
every moment of the year.

I think that part of the song describes my feelings and I think of those words often. Isn't wonderful that you can get a good meal in the smallest of places. You brought up some interesting thoughts that I will comment on later.

Theron, mentions that we always stay all the way across Paris from the area where the Cassatts lived.

Fairwinds, I agree that the neighborhood where the Cassatts lived is not one where I would choose to live.

Lydia mentions that Mary's studio is on Place Pigalle. This is the area near Moulin Rouge. There are quite a few night clubs in that area today. In fact it is quite sleazy today. I have walked through the area many times during the day but would not want to do that alone at night. I have been to the Moulin Rouge once. However that sort of thing is not my "cup of tea". I read somewhere that Toulouse-Lautrec probably presented the area around Moulin Rouge in the most realistic way because many of his paintings presented seamy characters.

Eloise, I am so glad you bought the book and are reading it.

Joan

Do I think Lydia did all the posing to endear herself to her sister ? I think it was a time for the two sisters to be close and spend some quality time together.
I have a sense from Mary Cassatt's paintings after the death of Lydia that she loved her sister very much and felt much lonliness with her gone. In Mary Cassatt's mother and child paintings you notice there is always a linking....mother holding child's arm or leg and child touching the mother, making them close to one another in an endearing way.
Emma

I think that, as we read this book, we must remember that it is fiction. Even though it is based on real people and appears to be a biographical work, it is pure fiction.
The author has used her considerable talent in painting a beautiful word picture that rivals the real paintings that the book is based on. Mary Cassett's work is well documented. Lydia is little known outside of the statistical fact that she was Mary's sister, and that she died of Bright's Disease.
To be able to read about her thoughts and her reactions to real situations is a credit to the writer. If it is done well enough that we are expecting a bibliography to support the work, much more the credit to her talent.

Theron

"I immersed myself in the world of the Cassatt family as much as possible. Nancy Mowll Mathews' superb biography of Mary Cassatt helped immensely, as did the engaging letters of the Cassatts, which Nancy Mathews selected for publication (titled Cassatt and Her Circle: Selected Letters). I read as much as I could about figures like the Alcotts, Berthe Morisot, and Edgar Degas, and I tried to understand these figures within the context of Impressionism and nineteenth-century American and French history. I also hired a wonderful research assistant, Jennifer Boittin, to help me with the texture of daily French life around 1880; she described the meals that the Cassatts might have eaten, the streets of their quartier, the bits of French that might have come into their conversation. Many other friends came to my aid, with information ranging from embroidery to articles of clothing." ( From An Interview with Harriet Chessman)

When I was growing up, my mother loved to shop. Not having much money she shopped in the budget basements of Lit Brothers, Gimbels, Snellingbergs and Wanamakers. I remember walking down the streets of Philadelphia and looking in the department store windows at the richly dressed mannequins. Christmas time was even more special with moving dolls and trains, etc. The toylands were magnificent. I remember the Magic Fountain in Wanamakers at Christmastime.

Lydia describes the "grand magasins" as filled, layer after layer, like the inside of wedding cakes, with things to buy." But when she talks of the Philadelphia stores, she describes these stores as less grand. "Philadelphia can't compare, and yet I sometimes miss those modest shops. Something appeals to me in restraint."

I know many of you have been to Paris. Are Parisian shops and department stores more elegant than ours in the United States? I wonder do the ones today compare in any way to what the Cassatts enjoyed in Paris?

Mal, I enjoyed your description of the "Galeries Lafayette." You say it is a department store. It must have been magnificent, a memory you will always treasure.

"Alone I went to the Galéries Lafayette, a department store such as I'd never seen. One evening we went to Montmartre, flowers and artists everywhere. We ate at a kind of Provencal restaurant. I had escargots and moules for the first time. At another restaurant down a steep flight of stairs to what looked like a wine cellar, we had rare steaks on wooden boards. In yet another, there was the distinct smell of hashish ( which is different from the smell of Gaulois cigarettes. Oh, boy, are they strong! ) I also went to Le Drugstore, which was a big disappointment to me. Why should I travel so far to see what I see at home?"

I am really enjoying all of the links. Thank you Joan and EmmaBarb and all of the other posters who have posted links.

Ah Has, me too, me too, Lits basement, Gimbels, the subway coming right INTO the store of one of them, can't remember which, oh yes and Wannamakers with the largest organ in the United States in the lobby. The old Philly department stores of the 40's would be hard to beat, but not having been in Paris department stores then, I can't compare. . I think I've hit all the big ones in Paris and they ARE fabulous, (and to me, reminiscent of the Philadelphia of the 40's) but perhaps in the 1880's Philly stores were not quite so fine.

Not sure when they all began. Would Lits tell Gimbels? hahahaah

I returned to Phildelphia a few years ago and made a nostaligic pilgrimage to Wannamakers, now owned by Lord & Taylor. The "eagle" ( a huge broze statue of an eagle on the main floor where people would meet, "Meet me at the eagle," was a rallying cry), is still there, but the store is virtually deserted.

On my flight last year to Paris the inflight magazine had a gigantic article on that Wannamaker's organ and mentioned the organ concerts that used to take place there ...was it twice daily? In the huge 8 or 10 story atrium, again reminiscent of Paris. And how much it is costing Lord & Taylor to keep it up.

I ate in the little restaurant overlooking the eagle, which looks as big as it ever did, and had to be a bit sad for the grandeur that was gone.

Thank you Joan, that's an excellent explanation of the italicized words. I asked because that technique is also used in the translation we're using in my class of The Iliad, to set off the Homeric similes, I am not seeing similes but I think I am seeing something else, and I think I'll go thru and see if the italicized words themselves add up to anything, just sort of an exercise thing I like to do.

Thank you Theron and Malryn on the background materials. I am not sure that the reader's desire to find bibliographical references is connected to the writing skill of the author, in fact it might indicate the opposite so that the reader would say where on earth did he get THAT? That's not the case here, however, at lesat not with me. I think in any case where a real person is mentioned the reader natuarlly wants to know the sources, if any.

As a child after the huge department stores, my favorite place in Philly was the Horn n Hardart's, where one could put in nickels and pull out sandwiches! Amazing! And one could share a table with a bum who made "tomato soup" by using the free hot water and ketchup, to this day I can make "ketchup soup."

When I took my little boys on one of my innumerable pilgrimages back "home," I asked a policeman in Philly where the H&H was. You've got to be kidding, he said, it's been gone for years.

Such a shame, I heard rumors it's going back up, but don't know more about it.

ginny

Hi Ginny,

I enjoyed reading all of your past memories of Philadelphia. My memories are the same. I could go on and on and on.....

You have been to Paris too??? I love reading about the trips Seniors take and the photos that are brought back to us from across the sea.

"Such a shame, I heard rumors it's going back up, but don't know more about it."

My son went on a trip to New York last year. We had a chance to see him and his girlfriend wave to us from Rockefeller Center (The Today Show). He visited my old neighborhood in Philadelphia. Nothing is the same, and guess what!!! He liked Baltimore better than Philadelphia (laugh).

This site has a wonderful collection of Mary Cassatt's paintings in Museums and Art Galleries Worldwide:

http://www.artcyclopedia.com/artists/cassatt_mary.html

Mary Cassatt's confident watercolor, one of her few self-portraits, was created around 1880, a year after she began exhibiting with the French impressionists. Cassatt used her art to address the many roles of the modern woman—as mother, as intellectual, and here, as professional artist. Though dressed fashionably, Cassatt is not content to just be admired, but returns the viewer's gaze. Concealing her sketching surface from view, Cassatt playfully reverses expectations, suggesting in this self-portrait that it is the viewer who is being appraised by the artist.

The composition of Cassatt's work reveals its modernity. Calligraphic dashes of green in the right background suggest wallpaper, while the wash of rich yellow at the left evokes sunlight pouring over the artist's shoulders and casting her face into shadow. Bold strokes that emphasize color, mood, and motion celebrate the artist's touch. Although Cassatt does not depict her hands, she shows evidence of their rapid work.

Self-portrait Watercolor and gouache over graphite on paper, circa 1880 National Portrait Gallery, Smithsonian Institution

Mary Cassatt especially liked children, doting on her nieces and nephews and the offspring of friends. Naturalism and sensuality of a pure, elemental, and nonsexual sort are the hallmarks of Cassatt's portrayals of childhood during the 1880s and 1890s. An example is Children on the Shore, which she showed at the last Impressionist exhibition, in 1886. While this seaside subject is unique in her oeuvre, the close-up focus on the pair of toddlers and the firm draftsmanship are typical of the artist's style in the 1880s. In his review of the exhibition, Gustave Geffroy commented on this painting: "[It] has the sharp outline that things and people have on the sand with the background of water and sky. The short arms and the dollish faces let you guess the flesh under a thick laver of suntan." In the same review, Geffroy also responded to the sensuousness of Cassatt's rendering of youngsters in Children in a Garden, likening them to "flowers in the heat."

"The physicality in Cassatt's work seems to have made some uncomfortable. Eloquently capturing a moment between rest and play, Portrait of a Little Girl portrays the daughter of friends of Degas in an interior with Cassatt's dog. Cassatt submitted the painting to the American section of the 1878 Paris Exposition universelle: its rejection enraged her. The jury could have been affronted by the girl's insouciant sprawl: she has flopped into the chair, looking hot, disheveled, exhausted, even bored. With her clothing pushed up to reveal her legs and petticoat and her left arm lifted and bent around her head, the young model can be perceived as totally unconscious and innocent or as coquettish and sexually precocious. Harriet Chessman argued that the girl's pose derives from the traditional, erotic odalisque and thus was intended to foreshadow her adult sexuality. But in fact it seems that the attraction of this image lies in its naturalism. Children are less self-conscious than adults; they continually, rearrange their clothes and limbs and are often unaware of social conventions. Thus the work can be seen to reflect the then-current view of children as pure and unfettered beings. The jury may have objected to the artist's radical handling of the background. As in her domestic interiors of the time, she reduced spatial depth by choosing a sharp, high angle for the floor, crowding the chairs together, and abruptly cropping the windows. Again, as in Children on Shore, the viewpoint from which the subject is observed is low and empathetic - the same level from which a child would see.

"...Cassatt had completely absorbed from her Impressionist colleagues Caillebotte, Degas, and Renoir, as well as her study of Japanese prints, the modern idea that the background of a painting might be as significant as the foreground. She understood that establishing a tension between the two would capture the immediacy of vision, as well as mimic or falsify by turns, the focal shifts of human sight and perception. Thus the space and the objects in Portrait of a Little Girl that surround the figure seem to be in motion; the floor lifts up, and the chairs appear to have slid into various, almost accidental positions, not unlike that of the young girl. These changing elements affect our perception of the painting's psychological subtext: in contrast to [one] made clear by ... direct, outward gaze, that of Cassatt's "subject" is more complicated and elusive; the little girl's sideways glance, which avoids ours, makes her independent of us. She is in a world of her own, one that adults could fully understand only by recapturing their childhood personae."

From "Mary Cassatt: Modern Woman", by Judith A. Barter

fascinating, horselover. thank you.

some of you may have visited renoir's studio and olive grove with the view of the sea in cagnes sur mer, very close to antibes.

I think Mary Cassatt had a problem with hands and feet. She often left them unfinished or hidden under the folds of fabric.

I have read that Degas painted most of the background in the Portrait of a Little Girl in the Blue Chair by Mary Cassatt.

Hats and Ginny ~ my mother or my aunt used to take me to Gimbels and Wannamakers but only on special occasions, like Christmas to see all the decorations. At age 6, I went to live in Germantown in a boarding school (a state run orphanage) where I attended public school. Left there in the summer at age 13. I sure do remember the automat and my mother and I sometimes made tomato soup using the free hot water and ketchup and ate the free crackers on the table. Mom lived on the other side of Philly in a one room boarding house while my brother attended Girard College (an orphanage for boys). As orphans though we did get in free at the concert halls and cultural places (but we had to wear name tags with orphan on it....we were considered an orphan if one of our parents was dead). I had free ballet lessons, piano lessons and learned to ride a horse. I understand the home I lived in which was a fine three-story mansion was turned over to an old folks home. I have no reason to return to Philly however.

Emma

Horselover, thank you for all of the information and links about Mary Cassatt.

EmmaBarb,

I grew up in Germantown. My father fished in the creeks surrounding West Chester. EmmaBarb, I enjoyed reading your memories too. Now, back to wonderful Paris.

EmmaBarb, Germantown! (forgive me this personal seque, Friends, I have written Emma Barb privately) but Girard College! Voices from the past, Germantown and the hospital there, we lived in South Philly, in Holmesburg, did you know they just closed the Arsenal a few years ago? Amazing. My grandmother lived in Germantown, and Girard was one of the subway stops out to see her, like Ticonderoga, have mercy what memories you just dredged up and what a poignant story yours is, golly moses, YOU should be the one writing a book, good point on the hands Cassatt painted! Jeepers what a moving story, the wearing of name tags that said orphan, you should write, EmmaBarb.

What a world, now long gone except the row house were we lived in Philly is still there? Still there after all these years, and it looks the same as it did.

I think it's not possible for people in 2004 to envision what the H&H was like, today street people would not be allowed in a restaurant much less sit down at the same table as the patrons, but they did then, and some of them were really frightening, at least to me. I think my mother wanted me to experience that people often had nothing (tho we didn't have a whole lot, either). Let's face it, who DID then? My parents waited 8 years to get married so my father, who supported his widowed mother and two sisters, could get enough money to have that row house. It's funny to be comparing Paris and Phiadelphia.

Horselover, what a wonderful quote, ". Thus the space and the objects in Portrait of a Little Girl that surround the figure seem to be in motion; the floor lifts up, and the chairs appear to have slid into various, almost accidental positions, not unlike that of the young girl. These changing elements affect our perception of the painting's psychological subtext: in contrast to [one] made clear by ... direct, outward gaze, that of Cassatt's "subject" is more complicated and elusive..." Wonderful, those of you who underestand art must give the rest of us some insight if you will on her works, tell us about this first one with the newspaper and what to look for. Is it true that you start up close and they you're supposed to step way back and view the work. I recall in the Mapp and Lucia series EF Benson remarked that Georgie knew how to look at a painting? I don't. What's a good way to look at the Newspaper painting for those of us who truly don't know?

The question in the heading about WHY is Lydia reading the newspaper, why a newspaper was chosen is driving me crazy! I have NO idea and must reread that section to see what that might signify I have no idea!

ginny -- for many people living in many countries abroad, reading the international herald tribune is a very important part of daily life...a connection with home and one's culture. when i lived in paris it was before i knew the grand pleasures of e-mail from family and friends but i would equate the fun of reading the iht with reading my e-mail.

emmabarb -- it's true what ginny says about your writing if you haven't already. an orphan badge? ye gods.

Chronology of Mary Cassatt

"In 1860, 16-year-old Mary enrolled in the Pennsylvania Academy of the Fine Arts in Philadelphia. Despite the fact that women, especially those of the upper class, were discouraged from pursuing careers, she wanted to be a professional artist. By 1862, however, she had grown frustrated with the program's slow pace and inadequate course offerings. She also resented the patronizing attitude of the male teachers and most of her fellow students. She concluded that the best way for her to learn about art would be to go to Europe and study the works of the Old Masters on her own.

"Overcoming the strong objections of her family (her father once declared he would rather see his daughter dead than living abroad as a "bohemian"), Cassatt left for Paris in 1866 to take private art lessons and copy masterpieces in the Louvre. Over the next few years, she traveled throughout France and stayed briefly in Rome. Her first break came in 1868, when one of her portraits was accepted at the prestigious Paris Salon, an annual exhibition run by the French government's Academy of Fine Arts. To protect her family from embarrassment, Cassatt submitted the painting under the name Mary Stevenson. Her debut effort was very well received, as was another portrait she submitted in 1870.

"Not long after the Franco-Prussian War began in 1870, Cassatt reluctantly returned home and immediately encountered obstacles that threatened to put an end to her career. Living with her parents in a small town well outside Philadelphia, she had problems finding supplies and people willing to model for her. To make matters worse, her father announced that he would provide for her basic needs but not for anything connected with her work."

Source:

Biography: -- Mary Cassatt

thank you, mal -- imagine the tragedy for her of losing her eyesight the last years of her life.

Hi Everyone,

Thanks to each of you for you excellent and timely contirbutions to this discussion.

I will try to answer some of the questions that have been raised but first I must inject some personal information so that you will know why I am not here if I don't post again soon. My one of my grandson's is having surgery on one of his lungs. Some of you may remember that he had a a collapsed lung last Spring and then his other lung collapsed in late November. The first lung collapsed again. So they are doing surgery on it . I cannot explain the procedure but it is supposed to keep the lung from collapsing again. They are afraid that both lungs might go down at once if they do not do this surgery. Needless to say we are pretty upset over all this.

Now to the quesions.

Ginny, The discussion of Paris and Philadelphia was to try understand the Cassatts. Increasing our understanding of the family will help our understanding of Mary and her paintings as well as an understanding of this book.

You ask how close we should be too look at a painting. This depends on the painting. True if it is an impressionistic painting standing back from it makes it clearer. Your eye will blend the paint on the canvas to make distinct shapes and colors. However the distance where this happens for you will depend on your eyesight. One way to look at one of these paintings is to stand close to it and examine the brush strokes and colors then move back while looking at the painting. You will know when it looks most clear and distinct to you. You could reverse this and look at the painting from a distance and move closer and closer to it.

Then you ask why a newspaper? All right ask yourself more questions. Fairwinds has given you one good reason. Ask yourself how this woman is dressed? Is she wealthy or poor? What do you know about this woman? What do you know about her family? What do you know about her sister who painted this painting? When was this painting painted? What were the social conditions at that time? What was the role of women at that time? Now draw some conclusions. You will begin to see what this painting is saying to you. You will possibly find many things to discuss in this painting. Here is a link to the painting. I thought I had one that was a better photo than this one but I cannot find it. http://www.usc.edu/schools/annenberg/asc/projects/comm544/library/images/150.html

Let's look at this painting in this way. Post your questions that you are asking yourself here; then your conclusions. Let's read this painting together and see what we come up with.

Joan

I think that one must look at a painting with ones eyes and ones mind. As Joan says, ask the questions and see if the painting gives any explanation. Paintings tell stories and we must observe with open and questioning mind to find the story. Even a "simple landscape" imparts a tale. Was the aritst actually at this site? Does this site really exist? This can go on until you are satisfied with your answers.
This painting, Lydia Cassatt Reading the Morning Paper, was used by the author to expand on a story that came to her. She researched the painting and the artist and wrote her book.
We can look at the painting and each one come up with a different answer to the questions. This is what Art is all about. Each one has his/her own way to "see" the work. What a wonderful discussion this will be if we each look at the painting and bring the questions here and then give Our Own answers as we see them. Never mind what some "Art Expert" has written, just our own "gut reaction".
Since we only have the Print or Computer Image to look at it is necessarily different than looking at the real painting. Ginny has started by asking "Why the Newspaper". Joan has filled in the questions that this should lead to. What do YOU think???
My answer is alluded to in my post #56 and in post #63.
Waiting to hear from the rest of you folks. What Do You See??

Theron

To answer Joan's questions and in the link she gave us about Lydia Cassatt Reading the Morning Paper, the link is very different from my book cover and I prefer the book cover because it is brighter.

I noticed that Mary C often paints with a model leaning back in the chair thus making the focus point on a different object than the model. For a start I would say that the focus is on the newspaper itself because it is in a bright light. Lydia is wearing a hat which tells me that she is outdoors in the garden and the sun is in her hack shining on the newspaper. The dress is softly ruffled, lacy and loose which seems comfortable. The pinks dominate on the wall, the skin of the face and hands and the dress although has many colors seems to be white with soft blue flowers on the sleeve.

When I travel I always buy lots of newspapers giving me news of home. I guess it's a bit of nostalgia. But looking at Mary C's painting here, I feel like if I was in the South of France sitting outside relaxing in the softness of the air in that part of France. Fairwinds can tell you about that feeling I am sure living in Antibes. I don't remember where the Cassatts were living when this painting was done, It could have been in the Mary's garden in Paris in late Spring.

I found this quote on page 70 very nice:

Outside the room, the world moves on with its ships and trains, its republics, its foreign colonies, its industry, its injustice, its wars, its terror. The world becomes merely a thought about something other than this quietness, this room, this careful love.

I think that when you are fortunate enough to be surrounded by love and beauty, the turmoil of the world outside becomes blurred and faint and you make an effort to conserve this feeling as long as possible by putting it on canvas. This painting seems to be able to do that as many of Mary Cassatt's painting do.

Eloïse

Joan Grimes ~ oh my goodness, I'm saying prayers for you grandson.

For a long time I blocked out some of those memories of my young years. I survived in spite of it
Enough about me....back to Harriet Scott Chessman's lovely book about Mary and Lydia Cassatt.

Why was Lydia painted reading the newspaper ? Their mother and father read it daily. I recall something about looking for news of one of their brother who was in the service ?

About going to Europe to the museums to study art, my former art instructor once told us in class...."if you're going to copy paintings you should copy the best and that was the Old Masters".

As Mary Cassatt's eyesight got worse after two failed cataract surgeries, you can notice a lot of lines and detail missing from her paintings...especially her pastels. One of her close friends Mrs. H.O. Havemeyer broke off her friendship after getting upset that Mary Cassatt was re-printing some of her color aquatints. Some of her pastels she made a copy by putting the original thru a press of some kind and pressing it onto wet paper and then repainting parts of it. I guess this caused the value of the originals Mrs. Havemeyer had been collecting to go down. But at least Mary Cassatt was doing something where Degas stopped painting and just crawled up in a hole to die when he went blind.

Some of the backgrounds in her paintings were made up -- in particular the last one in Chessman's book of the horse and buggy ride. But this is okay....many artists paint that way.

I was curious about the mirrors in many of Mary Cassatt's paintings. There seems to be something she was trying to say....but what?

Emma

I think artists view paintings differently from people who are not artists. ELOISE, EMMA and I are all artists. I'm not sure about others in this discussion, though everyone here seems knowledgeable about and interested in art.

Most artists I know look at artwork more from an intellectual and technical standpoint than an emotional one. I think most people who are not artists view paintings and react to them from a strictly emotional way.

It is the same with music. I was trained in music from a very early age; studied at a conservatory for four years beginning when I was fourteen, then went on to major in music in college. Though I am moved by some music, I am quite aware that I don't listen to it in the same way that someone who has not studied counterpoint, harmony, composition, or analyzed music, melodic line by melodic line and chord by chord hears it.

When I relate this book to the paintings included, I think of them as illustrations for certain points the author is making. What the painting, Lydia Cassatt Reading the Morning Paper, says to me is that here is a woman who probably doesn't know much life outside her home, exposing herself to a realm that's far broader than the one she knows and lives in. Lydia's on the inside looking out, and that's what she's doing when she reads the paper. I see her in a room, backlit it looks like, a window behind her and just beyond her right arm.

Light is very important in paintings. The light is falling on Lydia's shoulder and arm. Her face is in shadow. It is the shoulder and arm and the top left edge of the newspaper that first catch the viewer's attention, I believe.

Illustrating stories or books is an interesting occupation which I do all the time on web pages I build for my electronic magazines. I choose artwork that is based on something in the story, not necessarily the theme, but something related to what is being said. Chessman has done this here.

I still do not like the idea that Mary Cassatt allowed Dégas to paint part or all of the backgrounds for some of her painitngs. No two artists paint alike or think alike. I wonder how her paintings would have turned out, if she had done them all by herself?

Mal

I think Harriet Scott Chessman chose Lydia Reading the Morning Paper for the front of the book and the first painting in the book because she wanted to erase the widespread belief that women, during that time, were not interested in "thinking" about city and world politics or anything else. In the book Mary Cassatt says, "A newspaper is perfect. And what could be better than Le Petit Journal? It's so modern. It shows you're a thinking woman."

Theron's post gives me a better understanding of the painting. "It also shows an independent spirit in a woman since the usual duties of a woman did not require that she be informed by any means other than what the male head of the household told her. Here we are introduced to a family that embraces the idea of an independant spirit in a world that for the most part rejects the idea of a woman having any role other than wife and mother."

Harriet Scott Chessman might have chosen this as the first painting because women of our day could better relate to the "modern, thinking and independent mind of the woman, and this would draw these women to look at Mary Cassatt's other works of art.

The emotional side of myself thinks this particular painting seems not to be about Lydia at all. Lydia is just a representative of other women. In other words, I see Mary Cassatt sitting in the chair reading the newspaper because Lydia says "Le Petit Journal becomes absurdly heavy in my hands, and my arms ache. I've read all the articles, and editorial opinions, and advertisements too, and now I'm wishing I had my book....I yearn, though, for the novel I began yesterday and left sitting on my bed--Madame Bovary." I see Mary Cassatt as the modern thinker, and I see Lydia as the romantic.

I have to take excception to one thing that Mal has said. I do not think that the artist necessarily looks at paintings differently unless some aspect of the painting appears to be a new and different technique. The artist, differently than the art historian, sees the content of the painting as secondary to the technique. The art historian sees the technique as a part of the overall effect. This does not change the fact that both look at the painting's impact on it's audience as a primary factor in it's appreciation.
I think Hats has made the connection that shows the character of this book. While the story is about Lydia, Mary is the force of independence that has influenced the writer. All the thoughts put into Lydia's character show her to be more the romantic. We cannot read the characters in this book in terms of today but must look at what we know about social conditions at the time.
Enough for today, I have to prepare to give a tour of "Old Masters and Impressionists", the exhibition that is currently showing at the Birmingham Museum of Art. Joan and I both volunteer as Docents there and we will be showing the exhibit to a group of 7th graders.

Theron

I hope your grandson is all right, JOAN.

Mal

Some of you have commented on the tragedy of an artist going blind. Another of my favorite artists (and feminists before that word came into fashion) who lost her vision during her later years was Georgia O'Keeffe.

Mary Cassatt provided a link between American collectors and the French Impressionists. The daughter of an elite Philadelphia family, she was in a position socially to convince friends, in particular Louisine Elder Havemeyer, to buy the work of the new French painters. Cassatt's influence helped the Havemeyer family to amass one of the greatest collections of Impressionist works in America, much of which now belongs to the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York.

Mary Cassatt was regarded by Europeans at that time as one of the most talented painters of the Impressionist group. She explored their new approaches to color theory, brushwork, and figure-ground relationships. Her compositions, like those of Degas, her teacher and friend, were influenced by photography and the then very popular art of Japan. When I look at my print of the Woman at the Washbasin, it looks very similar to some of my favorite Japanese prints.

When Lydia posed for her sister, either reading, weaving, or otherwise occupied, she didn't seem to be posing for a portrait. The pictures give the impression of catching someone in a casual act of everyday life. Someone asked why she painted people looking in a mirror. Maybe it was so that she could give a more three-dimensional portrait of the subject--front view as well as rear view.
______________________________________________________________________

Lydia did have some of the genetic artistic predisposition herself. This can be seen when she is designing the embroidery she is doing for Elsie. Her rendition of the wildflowers on the silk pillowcase could perhaps have been a painting if she had greater stamina.
______________________________________________________________________

We consider the main characters in this book to be Lydia and Mary Cassatt. But the overpowering character in both of the women's lives was Degas. He was friend, teacher and mentor, and lover to Mary. And he provided comfort, encouragement, and a way to have an imaginary relationship with a man for Lydia. "When Edgar visits, in the late morning," he looks hot and winded. As I break my pose, I can see his damp shirt beneath his summer coat. I feel a kind of humming inside me." Degas reads to them as Mary paints. When Mary asks Lyddy if she needs a rest, Lydia replies "I'm all right." But she is thinking "No, it's not rest I desire, but to be here, with this light, this needle, these eyes." The eyes of Degas upon her are, in a way, a substitute for the love-making she will never know.

Found this interesting Philadelphia Photo Album...(opens in a new window)....a look at the past.

Oh my gosh, Emma Barb, thank you!!

Joan I hope your grandson has come thru fine!

I'm on my way out of town but have loved all the posts on what you can see in art, I'm a novice so I think when I get back I'll, following what you all have said, give it my best go!

You'll laugh, but that's ok, that's how we learn, see you Monday,

Super discussion of a new and different type, I love it.

ginny

My grandson came through his surgery fine and is doing well. He will have his other lung repaired when this surgery heals.

Thanks Mal, Hats, Horselover, Theron, Emma Barb, Fairwinds, Eloise and Ginny for your contributions to the discussion thus far.

Now to get back to the book--Let's consider the following questions:

How would you describe Lydia's relationship with her mother and father? How does this compare to Mary's relationship with them?

What does Lydia admire most about Mary's work?

Joan

Ginny ~ safe trip and have fun!

Joan Grimes ~ it must really be a worry on you with your grandson, glad he came thru the surgery okay.

I got the feeling Lydia's father was much too busy being a financier and her mother was not well either. I'd say Lydia's relationship with her sister Mary was much closer not only because of her being seven years younger but Mary was the one to look after her needs while she was dying.
I'm not sure what Lydia admired most about Mary's work. Perhaps it was having her portrayed in so many paintings that she would be immortal.
Emma

Hi JoanGrimes,

I am happy to hear that your grandson is doing well. Thank you for taking the time to prepare for this discussion.

EmmaBarb, I enjoyed your Philadelphia link. All of the links and information are helping me to appreciate and enjoy this thought filled book.

I'm not too sure about the relationship Lydia had with her parents. They were always there for her when she was having a bout with her illness. Her mother encourages her to do the needlework that makes her happy. The parents both seem to be concerned that she does not pose too long at one time.
Their relationship with Mary seems to be more of a "supporting but wary of the outcome" attitude until she has sold some paintings. I'm not sure her father wholeheartedly approved of her relationship with Degas.
I think Lydia admired Mary's work as a way for her to gain recognition and fame. She also enjoyed posing as it gave her an opportunity to watch as Mary turned a plain canvas into something beautiful.

Theron

I think Mary and Lydia's parents were good parents. I think they were very concerned and wanted to make Lydia feel contented and comfortable during her last days. They made sure Lydia spent days in the country and also, spent time with extended family.

For Mary, the parents seemed to understand her need to be an artist. Mary's father wanted to be sure that her artwork would make her financially independent. "He looks at her, more and more, with simple admiration of the kind he might feel for a manly acquaintance who's struck it rich, in railroads or in stocks."

While Mary's mother wanted Mary to paint and be successful, I think she also hoped that she would marry one day. Painting the family and then, selling the paintings did not make the mother happy. "It's a painting of my grandchildren and me. How could she possibly think of earning money for it, and losing it to someone outside the family?"

I don't know whether this has been posted before now.

Portrait of Mary Cassatt by Degas

Good Morning Everyone,

It seems you , Emma Barb, Theron, and Hats, agree that Mary's parents were supportive of her and were there scenes if they were needed. Could this be because Mary was so independent? Is it possible that they were determined that their daughter would not become a completely independent woman or did a completely independent or did a completely independent woman exist at thet time?

Joan

Mary Cassatt was ahead of her time. Many of her paintings were sold to help woman sufferage outreach programs.

Emma Barb,

Thanks for bringing out that point.

Mal, thanks so much for the link to that portrait of Mary Cassatt by Degas. I don't think that link had been posted before. I had seen the picture somewhere but do not remember where I saw it. I missed you post yesterday but on going back this morning I it showed up. I don't know why my browser skips posts this way but it does sometimes.

I hope there will be other comments on the question of Mary and her independence.

Joan

It's been a sad day for Books and Lit with the death of Lorrie Gorg. I'd like to point out something I see in Mary Cassatt's life, though.

She seems to have avoided falling into a net of randomness and often debauchery that some artists find hard to escape. Because of her family and her ties with them and their support of what she is doing, her life is relatively stable. Much of her painting revolves around mothers and children, showing the influence of her family life. Her bond with her sick sister, Lydia, also had something to do with the fact that she did not spread her wings and fly too far from home.

She certainly was allowed more independence than most women of her day. One factor perhaps was the fact that she did not marry and have children of her own. Another, of course, was the liberal attitude of her family.

I wonder why her father, who had been so violently opposed to her becoming an artist, changed his mind? Was it her success that convinced him it was all right for her to do this?

Mal

There is a comparison between Mary Cassatt and Cecilia Beaux in the essay by Nancy Mowll Mathews linked below. I've long admired paintings by Beaux, who is said to have associated herself "with the strong but beautiful image of the 'new woman' best known in the exaggerated form made famous in the 1890's by Charles Dana Gibson." Cassatt's "dual identity as a paragon and enfant terrible, a fashionable 'Impressionist dropout' ", is contrasted with this. There apparently was an interesting rivalry between these two artists.

The Greatest Woman PainterMal

Mal, thanks for the links.

I noticed Berthe Morisot's name mentioned in the book. I think her name was mentioned more than once. I have never seen Berthe Morisot's paintings and know nothing about her life. How does Morisot compare to Mary Cassatt? Did Morisot paint women and children, or did she use other themes in her paintings? Was Morisot more independent than Mary Cassatt?

HATS, click the link below to see Morisot paintings. Click the small image to see a larger one.
Berthe Morisot

I'm so sorry to learn about the death of Lorrie. I joined SN only last Spring, so I did not get a chance to know her well. But from the comments posted here during her illness, I can tell she was a really special person and was much loved. I wish I had been able to know her better, and I think it's wonderful that she felt so close to her friends at SN and that they were there to comfort her during her last illness.
________________________________________________________________________

As for the question about Mary's parents' feelings about her chosen career, I think they were ambivalent. At first, they hoped her interest in art as a profession would gradually wane, and that she would marry and have children and live a typical lady's life. Later, they began to realize this would not happen and there would be no grandchildren from Mary or Lydia. Still, through it all, they were supportive of both women. As MAL pointed out, this support may have been responsible for Mary's life remaining more stable than the average artist's existence in Paris at that time.

Lydia admired and envied her sister. She would have liked to share her independence, her creativity, her robust health, and her romance with Degas. But there was great love between the two women, and each gave to the other something that could not be replaced. Death was a sad presence among the young at that time, much more so than it is today. There were no antibiotics, the average life span was shorter, death in childbirth was common, and the loss of young children was also common. Despite this, the Cassatt family faced their trials bravely and managed to find whatever happiness they could in each other and in their work.

During the war years Mary Cassatt was an ardent suffragette, as was her friend Mrs. (Louisine) H.O. Havermeyer. In 1915 Mrs. Havermeyer organized an exhibition in New York to benefit the suffragettes' cause, featuring the paintings of Cassatt and Degas. Mary Cassatt wrote her friend "if such an exhibition is to take place then I wish it to be for the cause of Woman Suffrage".

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for all the great comments on the questions for discussion. I am learning alot from your contributions.

First let me say that I am sorry for being absent for a few days. I have had family obligations that have kept me very busy. My younger daughter was involved in an automobile accident on Tuesday. WE are very thankful that she is all right but she is in alot of pain from all her bruises. She is the one who has had so much illness in her life. Also my mother has been ill again this week. That required our taking her to see her doctor.

Now back to our book discussion:

Mal, thanks for your link to Cecilia Beaux. That was very interesting and new information to me! Also thanks for the link to Berthe Morisot. She is one of my favorites.

Emma Barb, thanks so much for the information on Mary Cassatt and the suffragettes. I did not know all this about the her being an ardent suffragette. That is very interesting to me. I had read several things about her independence. In fact it seems to me that her independence is really apparent in the way that she conducts her life. The fact that she paints her sister reading the morning paper is to me evidence that they both must have been independent, thinking women.

Since we have established that Mary Cassatt was an independent woman why do you think that she usually painted women and children?

What message do you think Lydia gets from Mary's painting "Driving"? Do you think that Mary was giving a last gift to her dying sister?

Has the Civil War influenced Cassatt family?

What do you think Harriet Scott Chessman is saying about life and death? Point out some examples.

Joan

JOAN, I'm very glad you posted. I was worried about you and Theron. I'm sorry about your daughter's accident and the illness of your mother. I hope they'll soon be all right.

I have a funny feeling that Mary Cassatt identified with children and their uninhibited freedom. Harriet Chessman gives us a gentle look at both life and death in this book, it seems to me. The carriage painting might indicate the journey from childhood to death. Just a guess.

Mal

Joan Grimes ~ you certainly have good reason not to be here, family comes first (at least it does to me). So sorry about your younger daughter's auto accident. Sure hope she will recover without any problems down the road.

I think somewhere I read that the horse and buggy was given to Mary Cassatt and her family by her brother after Mary Cassatt had a riding accident severe enough that she would never ride a horse again. The buggy ride that afternoon for Lydia and the little girl (Degas's niece I think) was to give Lydia the experience of being in the driver's seat maybe one last time.

I have the feeling Mary Cassatt's proper upbringing did not allow her to go off and paint what the male artists of the time did, so she painted family and friends and people she knew. There are only a couple of her paintings which include men. One of the things that endears me to this artist are her mother and child paintings.

Emma

I think that Mary used the driving pose to show that Lydia was a capable woman. She could have been trying to show that even with her illness, Lydia had the ability to control her own life.
The Civil War did have an effect on the Cassat family in that many of the young men that were known to them in Pennsylvania were called to serve. Some were mentioned who had hired others to serve for them. Lydia thought about her friend, who could have been a serious boyfriend, on occasions when she was posing. Apparently he was killed in the War.

Theron

JoanGrimes, I hope your mother and daughter continue to improve.

When Mary painted Lydia in the carriage, I think Mary was striving to show Lydia's strength. Mary wanted to show that Lydia, although facing pain and fatique, continued her activities. Lydia never gave up. It also seems to be one more painting which shows a part of Lydia's personality. Lydia loved children.

Joan, I hope your daughter and mother continue to improve, I hate it that life often intervenes, yet I find tho I have not been able to be here much, also, that I also have been thinking about this discussion, Degas, and Mary Cassatt. Wasn't it interesting that in the Degas painting Malryn brought here May Cassatt seems so ...would you say… homely? At any rate that surprised me, that he did not embellish on her physical characteristics.

In looking over materials for my coming trip I found a sculpture by Degas in the Musee d'Orsay, which I think I would like to see. His paintings seem to, according to the blurbs, take in the everyday aches and pains of the dancers, etc., something new for the time?

Carriage driving takes skill and strength, I am told by my blacksmith it's as dangerous as riding, she might well have been saying she thought, as Theron said, Lydia a capable person, that's nice, I would not have known that.

I have really enjoyed everybody's take on how to look at the newspaper painting, too, love it, it's like a little mini art course.

One passage that particularly attracted me is on page 131 ff,

I realize with a stumble of my own heart that I wish to be seen by someone who can see with clarity.

That was Lydia, I am very interested in what the author has her saying here near the end of the book.

Then the author has Degas saying to Lydia on page 133

You give her....A sense of something terribly valuable, something she must work her way towards, in paint.

...All of us need something to work towards--to claw our way to, in necessary--to crawl on our belies to, through mud and across stones, in order to touch and understand a mere paoart of it.

I found that interesting, the role that first May sees in Lydia, then Degas and then what she herself came to see.

I don't know if this is true, or if there are writings which say this, but I find this voice of this character very interesting, is the author saying that even in illness a person, tho not an artist of lasting fame, can find purpose? They also serve who only stand and wait?

That would tie in with the premise of Lydia as co creator of these paintings, simply by virtue of her posing for them.

Quite an interesting set of thoughts for Lydia near the last, I thought.

ginny

This is a good question that Joan asked the other day: What do you think Harriet Scott Chessman is saying about life and death? Point out some examples.

I think Chessman was saying thru Lydia that art renders immortal not only the artist but the subject, here on the last page Lydia reflects:

Sometimes one can have a glimpse of the future, and, frightening as it is, it can have in it an element of consolation. Terrible, to image a world continuing beyond my own dissolving; yet what if I am a presence for May, and for others too, leaving a trace, like the swath of white light on the top of this embroidery frame? Maybe I should not be so afraid of vanishing after all.

I thought that was a very poignant and telling reflection on the issues of life and death, told thru the perspective of the character.

ginny

I went back, following my own theory, into the italiziced glosses, which I at first thought were Homeric like similes, they aren't, but they are a counter voice to the entire book I believe, starting with the one used as introduction before the book begins, they begin and continue a separate dialogue, almost a ghostly presence, ending with Lydia's death, very effective and almost spooky technique, I wonder why Chessman used it and what she was hoping to achieve with it, it's quite deliberate, and tells a story of its own.

ginny

Wonderful comments Everyone!

Ginny, I especially like those last two comments. I really feel that that Chessman was telling the story of Lydia in those italiziced glosses.Of course they are telling completely fictional story but still help us to know Lydia. By immersing herself in research on the life of the Cassatts and of the others who were involved in their world Chessman was able to create a very believable Lydia.

There are a few more questions that I would like to look at in this book as we near the end of our discussion of it.

Since Lydia was so ill Chessman has used " images of mortality" in this novel.Some of the images are graphic and some are allegorical. What is the author trying to say about death and life?

Lydia says she "can't tell May my thoughts, because she can't bear to face illness or death. My whole family's like that." How does Lydia feel about this? What has made her family this way?

Why does Lydia have such a deep, instictive reaction to the subject of Mary's painting, Woman Reading? As Lydia says, "I can't think it is, and yet I know, with exquisite pleasure, that it is." "How does she view herself as model and muse for her sister?"

As death draws nearer, does Lydia change? How?

Joan

Ginny ~ I did not find that painting of Mary Cassatt by Degas very flattering at all.....I've seen photos of her where she was a lot better looking. Maybe it was painted after Degas' eyesight failed. I love the little bronze sculptures of his ballet dancers...also his horses (would very much like to have one of each in my home).

Emma

I misplaced my book, and only just found it this afternoon.

I think Degas' portrait of Mary Cassatt resembles the one she did of herself. Mary Cassatt self portrait The background in the Degas' painting looks hurried and unfinished to me. The colors he used for Cassatt's clothes are not flattering ones. It's as if he sees her as a little brown bird.

Here is an example of Chessman's use of images of mortality, I believe:

"I feel sometimes if I'm in a rowboat, all on my own. And this is all right, if I can still see land, and houses, and my sister and others walking on the shore. But to be cut off from the shore, to have only seabirds and the impersonal sun and salty waves to witness what's happening in my boat --- that is too much."

I love "the impersonal sun". The phrase removes the warmth one usually associates with the sun, which sometimes feels as if it's bathing a person with love and care, and replaces it with indifference.

Mal

Joan I agree about the glosses, very effective technique, I think, almost a disembodied voice.

Emma Barb, I agree, and it does make me wonder, I'm not all that familiar with Degas but that is a homely face, you may be right on his eyesight? And that would explain a lot? I don't know much about his horses, but I do like his ballet dancers, still that's a very unattractive face, pose and attitude for a supposed lover, do you suppose Chessman made that part up?

Malryn, that gouache as it's labelled nearly knocked me to the ground! Does it NOT look like Lydia to you? Completely different face!

I am thinking in answer to Joan's question: Lydia says she "can't tell May my thoughts, because she can't bear to face illness or death. My whole family's like that." How does Lydia feel about this? What has made her family this way? that it's very hard to live with somebody you love who is terminally ill, and many times people deny it to themselves and to the patient, I have a feeling that is what is going on, fear of loss?

ginny

Mal ~ thanks for the link to the Mary Cassatt self portrait.

Ginny ~ I think it looks very much like Lydia too. I've seen another self portrait by Mary Cassatt where she includes an easel and where it also shows her on the canvas.

I find it interesting that Mary Cassatt often had her models wear white so she could paint in the colours she wanted.

Degas also painted one of Mary and Lydia dressed in black and sitting in a hallway--with his usual cropped edges.

Emma

On Page 155 Chessman has Lydia quote from Tennyson's poem Tithonus. Here it is in its entirety. You can see how Chessman makes it relate to the way Lydia feels about her life.

 
TITHONUS

 

              The woods decay, the woods decay and fall,  
              The vapours weep their burthen to the ground,  
              Man comes and tills the field and lies beneath,  
              And after many a summer dies the swan.  
              Me only cruel immortality  
              Consumes; I wither slowly in thine arms,  
              Here at the quiet limit of the world,  
              A white-hair'd shadow roaming like a dream  
              The ever-silent spaces of the East,  
            Far-folded mists, and gleaming halls of morn.  

            

             Alas! for this gray shadow, once a man--  
            So glorious in his beauty and thy choice,  
            Who madest him thy chosen, that he seem'd  
            To his great heart none other than a God!  
            I ask'd thee, "Give me immortality."  
            Then didst thou grant mine asking with a smile,  
            Like wealthy men who care not how they give.  
            But thy strong Hours indignant work'd their wills,  
            And beat me down and marr'd and wasted me,  
            And tho' they could not end me, left me maim'd  
            To dwell in presence of immortal youth,  
            Immortal age beside immortal youth,  
            And all I was, in ashes. Can thy love,  
            Thy beauty, make amends, tho' even now,  
            Close over us, the silver star, thy guide,  
            Shines in those tremulous eyes that fill with tears  
            To hear me? Let me go: take back thy gift:  
            Why should a man desire in any way  
            To vary from the kindly race of men,  
            Or pass beyond the goal of ordinance  
            Where all should pause, as is most meet for all?  

            

            A soft air fans the cloud apart; there comes  
            A glimpse of that dark world where I was born.  
            Once more the old mysterious glimmer steals  
            From any pure brows, and from thy shoulders pure,  
            And bosom beating with a heart renew'd.  
            Thy cheek begins to redden thro' the gloom,  
            Thy sweet eyes brighten slowly close to mine,  
            Ere yet they blind the stars, and the wild team  
            Which love thee, yearning for thy yoke, arise,  
            And shake the darkness from their loosen'd manes,  
            And beat the twilight into flakes of fire.  


 

                  Lo! ever thus thou growest beautiful  
            In silence, then before thine answer given  
            Departest, and thy tears are on my cheek.  


 

                  Why wilt thou ever scare me with thy tears,  
            And make me tremble lest a saying learnt,  
            In days far-off, on that dark earth, be true?  
            "The Gods themselves cannot recall their gifts."  


 

                  Ay me! ay me! with what another heart  
            In days far-off, and with what other eyes  
            I used to watch--if I be he that watch'd--  
            The lucid outline forming round thee; saw  
            The dim curls kindle into sunny rings;  
            Changed with thy mystic change, and felt my blood  
            Glow with the glow that slowly crimson'd all  
            Thy presence and thy portals, while I lay,  
            Mouth, forehead, eyelids, growing dewy-warm  
            With kisses balmier than half-opening buds  
            Of April, and could hear the lips that kiss'd  
            Whispering I knew not what of wild and sweet,  
            Like that strange song I heard Apollo sing,  
            While Ilion like a mist rose into towers.  


 

                  Yet hold me not for ever in thine East;  
            65How can my nature longer mix with thine?  
            Coldly thy rosy shadows bathe me, cold  
            Are all thy lights, and cold my wrinkled feet  
            68Upon thy glimmering thresholds, when the steam  
            Floats up from those dim fields about the homes  
            Of happy men that have the power to die,  
            And grassy barrows of the happier dead.  
            Release me, and restore me to the ground;  
            Thou se{:e}st all things, thou wilt see my grave:  
            Thou wilt renew thy beauty morn by morn;  
            I earth in earth forget these empty courts,  
            And thee returning on thy silver wheels.

Mal, thank you for including the whole poem. I can see why Harriet Chessman chose this poem for Lydia.

Whoo, me too, Hats, thank you Malryn, isn't THAT beautiful, one of these days we MUST read Tennyson, I love Tennyson.

Emma Barb, in the paintings you mention, where Mary does herself, who does she most look like, Lydia or that homely person?

I'm getting a spooky feeling here writing this?

Your mention of them in white so she could paint the colors they liked made me remember something from my high school days, my neighbor across the street was a hair model? She was a model but she was in many hair product commercials? And for her modeling jobs her hair had to be...what's the term, completely stripped? It had no color at all (kind of like mine, now, actually? hahaah think it's not too late? hahaahah) anyway THAT was so they could make it the color they'd like and adjust the lights on it for the blonde tones.

(Her mother thought I would make a good model, being at the time almost 6 feet tall) so I went on my first and only trip with her to a modeling agency, I was thin as a stick, barely more than 128 pounds, looked like a skeleton and the woman took one look at me and said, and I quote, "lose 25 pounds and have something done with that nose and come back and see me." hahahaah I have not made it back, let's see, that was almost 50 years ago, would kill for that weight now hahahaha

Silver wheels, returning on thy silver wheels, that's a great poem to inspire a book!

ginny

Ginny, I wish we could go through each line of the poem. Do you know who or what is Tithonus? Maybe I missed the meaning in one of the lines of the poem.

Hats, I'd love to go thru the poem and see how it applies to the book, would you like to Joan?

Here's what I found on the Victorian Web about the poem and the myth:

Genre: monodrama.
Form: 76 lines of blank verse.
Tennyson wrote the first version of this poem (as "Tithon") in 1833, only completing it in 1859, when W. M. Thackeray asked him for a poem for the Cornhill Magazine, which he was editing. Thackeray published it in the February 1860, issue.

1. In Greek mythology Tithonus was a mortal beloved by Aurora, the goddess of the dawn. She begged Zeus to give him eternal life, but forgot to ask also for eternal youth. As Tithonus withered, he shrank into a grasshopper.

2. In Tennyson's 1833 volume of poems, "Tithon" was a pendant to "Ulysses." Why? What do the two poems share? In what way might they both serve as the poet's explorations of death? Why do you suppose Tennyson separated the two in a subsequent volume?

3. One critic says that this poem expresses anything but a simple death wish: "If the speaker wants to die, it is because he loves life too well to submit to death in life." Come again?

Does that story of his asking for eternal life and forgtetting to ask for eternal youth remind those of you who read the Drabble of anything?

hahahaha

Thanks, Ginny. I am just about to read slowly what you posted about the poem. This is exciting.

I can't understand point three. It's above my head. What does it mean????

"If the speaker wants to die, it is because he loves life too well to submit to death in life."

Were these Lydia's feelings?

I was able to buy this book for a friend of mine who sincerely admires Mary Cassatt and all of the artists of that era. She loved the book and has since purchased an audio tape of "Lydia" for her almost blind sister. They used to go to all the art galleries together when her sister could still see. Thanks to all of you for your many insightful posts and the poem, ohhhh, I liked it but won't even pretend to understand it all.

Since this is fiction I can't help but feel the poem Tithonus relates to the way Harriet Chessman feels about death and dying. I had tears reading the poem in its entirety.

Ginny ~ In the painting I mentioned of Mary, she has depicted herself as an artist (side pose) painting her own self on the canvas included in the painting. Not at all that homely person Degas painted (but that's only my opinion).
That's interesting about the hair model you remember from your high school days. Makes perfect sense that they stripped her hair first for the commercials. Well I'll bet you would have made a good model from your description....it was their loss....lose 25 lbs and have a nose job indeed (hmmmph).

I thought Tithonus was a flower ? oh no it's Tithonia I'm thinking of (I did a computer painting of the flower not long ago).

Emma

This is what I feel, a really terrific place to see nearly all of Mary Cassatt's paintings click here...click the thumbnails to expand the show, then click on the individual images to see a large image. There's one I hadn't seen before "Lydia Reclining on a Divan" click here.

lydia, looks very ill in the Lydia Reclining on a Divan painting. Thanks for showing us that painting. Could Not get into 1st clickable, might be my computer tho.

Thank you Emma Barb, for that fine collection and for Lydia Reclining. I agree with Ginger, she looks VERY ill, and for Pete's sake, that's an entirely different face!

Are there any photographs of these two women we might see what they actually look like?

I never realized how different people can look depending on the artist, now I realize what Henry VIII meant when he, having sent Holbein to paint a portrait of several possibilities for Queen was so disgusted with Anne of Cleves when he finally met her in person. "I like her not!" he exclaimed, I guess he thought Holbein had done a job on her.

Here's a charming view of the painting and some history about this incident I did not know! I did not know it had cost Holbein the Younger his job, and I had forgotten the fat Flanders mare bit: Holbein's Painting of the Likeness of Anne of Cleves for Henry VIII

Got into the first clickablle just now. Thank you for the clickables.

Thank you Ginny and Emmabarb for the clickables. I noticed there are two more poems mentioned by Harriet Chessman. One is THE LADY OF SHALOTT and the other is THE LOTUS EATERS. I don't know how to relate these poems to Lydia's death and / or life. I wish I had the ability.

The Lady of Shalott by Alfred Lord Tennyson (pub. 1842)

On either side the river lie
Long fields of barley and of rye,
That clothe the wold and meet the sky;
And through the field the road run by
To many-tower'd Camelot;

And up and down the people go,
Gazing where the lilies blow
Round an island there below,
The island of Shalott.

Willows whiten, aspens quiver,
Little breezes dusk and shiver
Through the wave that runs for ever
By the island in the river
Flowing down to Camelot.

Four grey walls, and four grey towers,
Overlook a space of flowers,
And the silent isle imbowers
The Lady of Shalott.

Only reapers, reaping early,
In among the beared barley
Hear a song that echoes cheerly
From the river winding clearly;
Down to tower'd Camelot;

And by the moon the reaper weary,
Piling sheaves in uplands airy,
Listening, whispers, " 'Tis the fairy
The Lady of Shalott."

There she weaves by night and day
A magic web with colours gay.
She has heard a whisper say,
A curse is on her if she stay
To look down to Camelot.

She knows not what the curse may be,
And so she weaveth steadily,
And little other care heat she,
The Lady of Shalott.

And moving through a mirror clear
That hangs before her all the year,
Shadows of the world appear.
There she sees the highway near
Winding down to Camelot;

And sometimes through the mirror blue
The knights come riding two and two.
She hath no loyal Knight and true,
The Lady of Shalott.

But in her web she still delights
To weave the mirror's magic sights,
For often through the silent nights
A funeral, with plumes and lights
And music, went to Camelot;

Or when the Moon was overhead,
Came two young lovers lately wed.
"I am half sick of shadows," said
The Lady of Shalott.

A bow-shot from her bower-eaves,
He rode between the barley sheaves,
The sun came dazzling thro' the leaves,
And flamed upon the brazen greaves
Of bold Sir Lancelot.

A red-cross knight for ever kneel'd
To a lady in his shield,
That sparkled on the yellow field,
Beside remote Shalott.

His broad clear brow in sunlight glow'd;
On burnish'd hooves his war-horse trode;
From underneath his helmet flow'd
His coal-black curls as on he rode,
As he rode down to Camelot.

From the bank and from the river
He flashed into the crystal mirror,
"Tirra lirra," by the river
Sang Sir Lancelot.

She left the web, she left the loom,
She made three paces through the room,
She saw the helmet and the plume,
She look'd down to Camelot.

Out flew the web and floated wide;
The mirror crack'd from side to side;
"The curse is come upon me," cried
The Lady of Shalott.

In the stormy east-wind straining,
The pale yellow woods were waning,
The broad stream in his banks complaining.
Heavily the low sky raining
Over tower'd Camelot;

Down she came and found a boat
Beneath a willow left afloat,
And around about the prow she wrote
The Lady of Shalott.

And down the river's dim expanse
Like some bold seer in a trance,
Seeing all his own mischance -
With a glassy countenance
Did she look to Camelot.

And at the closing of the day
She loosed the chain, and down she lay;
The broad stream bore her far away,
The Lady of Shalott.

Heard a carol, mournful, holy,
Chanted loudly, chanted lowly,
Till her blood was frozen slowly,
And her eyes were darkened wholly,
Turn'd to tower'd Camelot.

For ere she reach'd upon the tide
The first house by the water-side,
Singing in her song she died,
The Lady of Shalott.

Under tower and balcony,
By garden-wall and gallery,
A gleaming shape she floated by,
Dead-pale between the houses high,
Silent into Camelot.

Out upon the wharfs they came,
Knight and Burgher, Lord and Dame,
And around the prow they read her name,
The Lady of Shalott.

Who is this? And what is here?
And in the lighted palace near
Died the sound of royal cheer;
And they crossed themselves for fear,
All the Knights at Camelot;

But Lancelot mused a little space
He said, "She has a lovely face;
God in his mercy lend her grace,
The Lady of Shalott."
.

Hats--Tennyson also wrote "The Lotus Eaters" and you can find it here:

http://oldpoetry.com/poetry/5070

Thank you, Maryal. Now I can enjoy reading the whole poems.

You're most welcome, Hats. "The Lady of Shalott" is my favorite of Tennyson's poems. It's about another doomed young woman in the days of King Arthur.

Thanks to all of you who have participated in this discussion and kept it going for me.

Emma Barb thanks so much for that last link to Mary's Cassatts paintings. Being able to see that painting of Lydia looking so ill was just wonderful for ending this book. What an absolutely beautiful painting that is. I admire Mary Cassatt's art much more than I did when I started this discussion!

Ann Alden, I am so glad that your friend enjoyed the book! I suggest to everyone that I know who is interested in the art of that time. I loved this little book !

Those of you have participated can see it opened many avenues of discussion. To me that is what a good book does. It makes one think about all of these things from the reality of the situation to the possibilities of the situation.

I really enjoyed looking at the setting as we know it today and trying to imagine what it must have been like at the time.

The book opens the path to all the arts. In this case it was painting at first glance but closer examination brought in poetry. I enjoyed reading your thoughts on the poetry.

Since we know so little about the really personal things in the life of these two sisters we can only speculate at what the truth was in certain relationships. We will never know for sure about the relationship between Mary Cassatt and Degas. Ginny I believe you asked days ago if Chessman made up the love affair that she suggested in the book. Notice that she did only suggests it. I think that Degas was Mary Cassatt's mentor and teacher and nothing more. He was the one responsible for getting involved with showing her paintings with the French Impressionists There is no evidence to really show that there was anything else between these two painters. However Chessman is not the first person to suggest the love affair.

If you have any more thoughts that you wish to express on this book. Please post them now as this is the last offical day of this discussion.

Thanks again to each of you for enhancing my reading of this book.

Joan