ps AM dying to know...did the reader from SC ever return the library edition?

(no)

There is something else going on with me...and don't know if I should share it with you or keep it in. My mother died in a TB sanitorium in the New Jersey "hills" when I was 7 years old. Now, it wasn't a remote place in the Alps, but as far as I'm concerned, it may have been. I am finding so many questions...must call my mother's sister and see if she remembers anything about this place.

My most pressing question...isn't TB awfully contagious? What is Hans doing there? What kind of a vacation is this? Why isn't he staying in the village below and visiting his cousin? And why is the psychiatrist there? Is he counselling the TB patients? Why are they smoking in the TB hospital...cigars/cigarettes!

Hopefully I will get this one finished and such questions will be answered before Feb.1...but it isn't exactly an "easy read" for many reasons.

As I remember it, the bad lung was almost healed and they were to inflate it again, when her only good one suddenly went (?) and she died immediately at the age of 35.

My father NEVER spoke of it to us. I was the oldest (7) and my brother Paul the youngest (7 months). There are five of us. Until I was in my twenties, every time I had a TB tine test (which always came up positive), I would have to get a chest x-ray...(which has always been negative). Finally, a doctor told me that I was always going to come up positive since I was exposed to an active case of TB. And I do. We all do. But we didn't ever have treatment of any kind. I know that, because I was sent to boarding school right after that...Wait, I think when Paul was in his twenties, he may have had some sort of 'flare up' (?) and had to go on anti-biotics for a bit. Will ask him tomorrow.

I remember everyone celebrating the end of the war. Couldn't understand the JOY. Was I supposed to be happy too? Didn't understand much about anything for a long time. Before she left, my mother had been reading Alice in Wonderland I didn't fully understand what was happening, but believed she would have told me someday. This book became very important to me. I learned to read it myself and searched for its meaning. It contained answers my mother didn't get to supply. I still don't know what it is saying, do you?

I have been keeping a list of questions about her santitorium as I read the details in Magic Mountain. I wonder about her four months there. Did she move around and socialize with the other patients? Did she make friends? Or was she bedridden? Did she lose weight? Did she eat as much as MM's patients did? Did she gain weight? Did she lose touch with the outside world ? Did she forget that she had five children...and a new baby at home. Or was she frantic to get better, to get home?
I never, ever thought about her experience there, only my loss and the fact that she did go to a sanitorium and died there, until now. My father has died. He never spoke about it. My mother's sister may have some answers. I want to know if she ever visited her. I want to know if vistors were even allowed. I want to know where this place was...if it still stands. I want to stand outside that window. I want to go inside..........
Maybe it is painful, and I don't realize it yet!

No regrets, Charlotte, dear...

I will put this up in the heading, and print out Barbara's wondrous information to read in bed...and fall asleep perhaps to dream of the Third Reich!
...or maybe Alice! Yay...Ginny makes three!!!

Charlie, that's a great suggestion. We get to discuss the "easy part" this week...and can spend evenings reading the later chapters. I find I have really slowed down, don't you?

We first meet Hans, run-down, pale and tired after his exams, heading off to a mountain sanitorium, teeming with feverish, coughing, dying TB patients! He needs to get in shape before starting his apprenticeship as an engineer, a shipbuilder. It is clear from the start that this career choice does not agree with him, that he loathes it. Has he contracted TB before arriving, or is he just exhausted?

(everything I read indicates that TB finds a breeding ground among the poor who live in unsanitary and unhealthy circumstances. Yet Hans came from money...and my mother was comfortable before she came down with it. I think that they were both at risk because of fatigue and thus susceptible to contracting TB. But I don't know that.)

What is time?
What is life?
How would you explain either of the two? Their relationship?

I had contracted TB from a nanny I had as a small child.  In 1st grade I developed a severe cold which did not go away.  The next fall, in a routine TB skin test, I had a positive reaction, was x-rayed, and found to have small lesions on my right lung.  I was taken to the TB sanatorium where I stayed for 21 months.  At the end of that time, there was only scar tissue on the lung, which is still visible today.  I had x-ray exams every 6 months until I was 18, when the local sanatorium closed and I went off to college.

I have difficulty understanding why there were no regulations as to the mixing of visitors and patients.  I don't think the story took place too much before I was sick.  The sanatorium where I stayed had been in operation since about 1910.  But maybe their methods of treatments etc. had changed dramatically.

I need to get into the story farther, to put behind me my own comparisons, and look at Hans and not necessarily the sanatorium, except as it existed and a small community.

End of self-pity

Pat! I have so many questions to ask you about your experience! You say "end of self-pity" - let's have a mutual pity session right here! You were about 7 or 8 when you went to the sanitorium? Were there many children there? Did you make any friends? You mentioned classes. So you must have been with a group? I was 7 when my mother died and was immediately sent to a boarding school. Life as I had known it up to that time was changed forever! What do you remember about your understanding of what was happening to you? Sad, confused, lost, afraid...curious? Do you remember settling in and having some sort of "society" with the other children? If it still hurts to think or talk about it, I would understand of course!

I don't think I understood the seriousness of TB, but I had strict parents and we had been taught to do as we were told.  I hated the food, no meat, only vegetables, fruit, oatmeal at least twice a day, and eggs in every form imaginable.  I hated the tall fence between our play yard and the orphanage next to us.  I remember trying to climb out.  I made a good friend, Shirley, 1 year older than me. When we went to H.S. we met again and were close through H.S. But in our Senior year she had to return to the sanatorium and died before Easter.  I think then I began to realize I was a survivor and have been all my life.

The self-pity I feel is for the loss of being with my family.  I was never close to my mother again.  I always had the feeling she was ashamed of my having TB.  My sickness was not mentioned as TB, and we were not allowed to talk about it.  When I entered regular school we moved to a different school district.  I spent more time with my father evenings in his bast workshop, where he taught me woodworking.

Unlike your situation, I came home to my family, and when I returned there was a new baby to take up mother's time, so I became quite independent.

Note: My records follow me wherever I go.  Just recently I received a questionnaire from The U.S. Dept. of Health about my general health, and had I had any reoccurrence.

Now back to Magic Mountain......

Giuseppe Garibaldi...led an expedition of 1,000 "Red Shirts" to Sicily... subsequently seized the southern part of peninsular Italy... turned his conquests over to Victor Emmanuel, and in 1861 the Kingdom of Italy was proclaimed. Only Venetia and Rome were not included in the new state (the former was added in 1866 and the latter in 1870).

During this period in Germany:The Imperial Proclamation, January 18, 1871 ... the German princes and the free cities have unanimously... the restoration of the German Empire, the German imperial office, which has been empty for more than sixty years...We... by the grace of God King of Prussia... declare that we have considered it a duty ... to accept the German imperial title...propitious future ... under the symbol of its ancient glory...within boundaries which afford the fatherland a security against renewed French aggression which has been lost for centuries.

The Kingdom of Italy faced many serious problems. A large debt, few natural resources, and almost no industry or transportation facilities combined with extreme poverty, a high illiteracy rate, and an uneven tax structure. Regionalism was still strong, and only a fraction of the citizens had the right to vote. To make matters worse, the pope, angered over the loss of Rome and the papal lands, refused to recognize the Italian state. .. banditry and peasant anarchism resulted in government repression, which was often brutal. .. during the 1880s a socialist movement began... The profound differences between the impoverished south and the wealthier north widened. Parliament did little to resolve these problems: throughout this so-called Liberal Period (1870-1915), the nation was governed by a series of coalitions of liberals to the left and right of center who were unable to form a clear-cut majority. Despite the fact that some economic and social progress took place before World War I, Italy ... was a dissatisfied and crisis-ridden nation.

In an attempt to increase its international influence and prestige, Italy joined Germany and Austria in the Triple Alliance in 1882; during the 1890s Italy unsuccessfully tried to conquer Ethiopia; and in 1911 it declared war on Turkey to obtain the North African territory of Libya.

Although Italy had an illustrious history in the arts, during this period the art was very theatrical; using words, drama, costume to enchant the audiance
Verdi: master composer of opera; passion, dramatic intensity, lyrical quality (Rigoletto, La Traviata)
Puccini: famed composer of operas (la boheme, Madame Butterfly) superb sense of dramatic theater, romantic.

In comparison; all serious thought was coming out of Germany in addition; music, (Wagner, Brahms, Strauss, Mahler) art, (Kandinsky) Architecture, (Semper, designed the Opera House, Imperial Palace, museums and theaters in Vienna; Wallot designed the Reichstag in Berlin) German artisans were building with German wealth.

Page 99 Hans judges Settembrini He hacks away at everything around him, ...that always makes things rather untidy and disorderly Joachim, the would be solder speaks to Settembrini's pride, self-respect and respect for people in general.

In comparison to Germany, Italy must have appeared untidy and disorderly. Also, I wonder if Settembrini is playing the classical role of a fool or jester - Mann's irony, a man of phylosophy from a nation devoid of registering serious thought rather, that does displays great emotional drama.
Fool the exreme opposite of the highest temporal power, the King. The fool, clown or jester is the lowest at the court and frequantly took the place of the king, in ritual sacrifice, as the scapegoat. The King symbolizes the forces of law and order, the fool those of chaos, hence the licence of the fool to say or do what he pleased. The fool represents unrepentant man who does not know whence he came, of where he is going but, goes on blindly towards the abyss.

Hans needed him...the only voice prodding him to return to real life from his mountain retreat! Even though it was not what Hans wanted to hear! I need such an objective voice of reason from time to time, especially when I go off on a tangent!

Settembrini is making me uncomfortable right now (though not as much as Naphta does) for two reasons. As Charlie has pointed out, there is much IRONY at work here, and no one is as they seem to be. I'm not sure about Settembrini's agenda, his motivation.

But the other reason...he is forcing me to question myself, my own convictions, and response to my environment. I am too much like Hans, the old Hans, , concerned with myself, my own comforts and security to look around me...Where is Ginny's post on the Europeans...

"...the truths by most Europeans, including Mann's burgher class, had directed their lives--that good would be rewarded and evil punished because the world was a rational place, presided over by a benevolent God or by human reason."

This time spent on the mountain with Hans may send me back down with increased awareness and determination to make a difference in the flatlands before it is too late. I do not wish to descend on a bobsled, however!

 
Settembrini 
EUROPEAN PRINCIPLE		ASIATIC PRINCIPLE 
Right					Might 
Freedom				Tyranny 
Knowledge				Superstition 
Law of Ferment/Change/Progress	Law of Obduracy 
Rebellion				Inertia 
Critique, Action			Inactivity 

I have the book, but am not keeping up because it has to be read slowly. All the viewpoints in the postings add a lot.

Mann said The Magic Mountain was meant as a humorous companion-piece to Death in Venice which was a long short story, "a sort of satire on the tragedy just finished. The atmosphere was to be that strange mixture of death and lightheadedness I had found at Davos." He also said, "It is possible for a work to have its own will and purpose, perhaps a far more ambitious one than the author's .... The work must bring it forth..." Interesting.

"There was no lack of inner contradictions...extraordinarily difficult for a civilian to decide between opposites, to keep them apart as neat, separate specimens. Everything was intertwined at at cross-purposes, a great general confusion..."

But I'm getting ahead!!! June I understand what you say about Mann's sketchy characters, but will also agree with Charlie...they are not one-dimensional to me either. I keep finding something of myself in each of them. . I wonder if TM had this effect on his readers at the time.

I cannot help but parallel my early TB experience and Pat's with Hans and Joachim's. Pat and I were both 7 years old when the disease struck. Pat spent two years in a sanitorium and the result was the loss of closeness with her mother in the years that followed. I was sent away to boarding school for two years immediately after losing my mother.
Pat, do you remember anything about TIME and its passage - did it seem you were there for a long time? Were you anxious to return home to your old life, or did you settle into the 'society' of the sanitorium? Were you sad to leave your friends there? I didn't want to leave my boarding school, because I felt the world 'out there' was empty, that nothing would ever be the same again.

		"What was life, really? It was warmth, the warmth produced by 
			instability attempting to preserve form, a fever of matter…It was 
			the existence of what, in actuality, has no inherent ability to exist, 
			but only balances with sweet, painful precariousness on one point of 
			existence in the midst of this feverish, interwoven process 
			of decay and repair, It was not matter, it was not spirit. It 
			was something in between the two, a phenomenon borne by matter, 
			like the rainbow above a waterfall, like a flame…it was sensual to the 
			point of lust and revulsion…existence in its lewd form. It was a secret, 
			sensate stirring in the chaste chill of space.. It was furtive…sordid… 
			a bloated concoction…what we call flesh" 

A SECRET, SENSATE STIRRING 
 IN THE CHASTE CHILL OF SPACE 

Isn't striking a nugget like this worth all the slogging in the mine shaft?  
Even a little? 

Charlie

Intimidated, very confused, overwhelmed at times? Certainly!

The only way to read this book is to understand that if you too feel this way, then Mann has succeeded! You are now experiencing the world's madness right along with Hans!

Forget all the other things Mann is trying to do for the time being! Those of you who read Jude the Obscure will remember how Hardy tried to do so much (too much?) and that he himself was not happy that he achieved that book on any level. I would love to know Mann's assessment of his accomplishment.

I haven't finished Magic Mountain, but can guarantee that Chapter Seven is worth the price of the book!!! Betty, I double-dog dare you to stick with it through 7!

That won't be easy because Chapter 6 is a major hurdle UNLESS you listen to Settembrini and Naphta through Hans - experience his total confusion, but don't try to UNDERSTAND it!!! Let it wash over you as a giant wave of conflicting ideas. Experience total intimidation, horror, hopelessness...as Hans. Don't take notes, don't try to sort it out! Don't work at it. It's not worth it! Hans will tell you that in Chapter 7!

"How are you relating to the book ?"
I have a son who is finishing law school this spring. He is deeply in debt, but has just announced:

a. he does not want to practice law - ever!
b. he is moving to San Diego (from Virginia) to find himself...moving to his 'mountain' with all his stuff, his dog, his debt...

If my son comes as far as Hans does in one year, I would be grateful!!!
Ginny mentions Hans' isolation. Mann has drawn a character who has been isolated since his childhood (age 7) when he lost his parents. ( I can relate to that!!!) Hans must learn everything through observation and study. That's what he is doing in these pages. He tells us over and over of his confusion. He tries as a scientist to learn about life, from the stars and planets to the cell, the atom and beyond..But none of this helps him to understand his own life, his own role in the order of things so that he can overcome his inertia and return to the world. He must stay on the mountain, he must remain sick then, until he finds some answers.

The answers must be found in the arguments of Settembrini or Naphta...we are presently experiencing his confusion...and discouragement.

Ginny and Charlie, thank you so much for your encouragement, recognizing how time-consuming it is!. Those of us who have read through Chapter 7 must encourage, if not double-dog dare those who haven't! Ride it through...over the top of the wave! It is well worth it!
I am off for the week and will miss much of the Chapter 6 discussion...cannot wait for your take on Chapter 7! I hope you are all still here!
LATER!

Regarding the comment why did Mann choose the novel to put across philosophical ideas, it seems to me that I have run across a lot of old books that did that. Seems a bit boring to us now as we are used to more action-driven stories.

FINISHED?! I am so incredibly proud of myself! I consider this a major accomplishment! And you know what? I could not have done it without you all!!! I know that! I still need lots of input and help with Chapter 7, but I know you are here to the end!

I mis-spoke last week when I guaranteed that Chapter 7 was worth the price of the book. I was referring to Snow which is of course, still in Chapter 6. I considered Snow a turning point, both for Hans and for me. It was during that reading that I realized that Hans was as confused as I was. It was then that Hans realized that neither Settembrini nor Naphta had the answers to the real meaning of life. He concludes at this point that love is stronger than death.... and as I write this I find some comfort in accepting LJ's death. I'll miss him every day, every time I come into Books. But he is not gone...his spirit is definitely HERE and death shall have no dominion!..."for the sake of goodness & love, man shall grant death no dominion over his thoughts."

But even before we meet Naphta in Chapter 6 and these dialogues begin, we hear Joachim say, "War is necessary...without war, the world would go to rot" And Naphta continues that line of thinking soon after, saying "war takes care of the problems of the bourgeoisie."
Settembrini loathes war, and yet he seems to regard it as the only means of achieving social justice and ideal order on earth.

Hans gets more confused trying to follow theirargumentss, and although Naphta has the superior debating skills, and logic, Hans finds himself repelled by him.

Just what is un "voluptuaire? One given to sensual pleasures? Well, aside from the silk upholstery, are we to infer that the young boys who attend him are also there for his pleasure?
And while we are talking about the young and the vulnerable, why are Naphta and Settembrini so interested in Hans, not Joachim, not Ferge and Wehsal...just ordinary Hans, who appears to be in a stupor much of the time. Is he the most vulnerable of the lot? A battle for his soul? Naphta representing lust, Settembrini love and reason? Hans finds himself repelled by Naphta, but unwilling to agree with Settembrini, who warns Hans that his weakness for Clavdia, (his lust ) defies reason and keeps him captive on the Mountain...He warns Hans of the unhappy souls in the second circle of Hell who sacrificed reason for lust...which is what Hans is doing as he waits for Clavidia.

We need to spend some time discussing Snow, not only is it the turning point, but Mann's writing is most beautiful as he describes the Mountain, both in the bloom of wild flowers and the powerful descriptions of the snowfall!...

In April of 1921 France and England presented a bill to Germany demanding payment for damages caused by the war. The bill, 33 billion dollars for war reparations caused ruinous inflation in Germany. In 1923 the Nazis with 55,000 followers demanding action over the bitter resentment and unrest swelled bringing Germany to the brink of chaos.

The Nazis at this time lumped most of Mann's work with the Jewish authors and a French journalist printed that Mann was Jewish. With such financial chaos in every German household (Mann survived by his readings abroad paid in foreign currency, especially dollars) I do not think anyone, much less youth was willing to listen to a voice of individual responsiblity or kindness to each other as well as, respect for the "offending" European nations bleeding the country of its financial resources.

Distracted, Hans is reminded of Clavdia, "and suddenly he was racing downward." He regains himself, and presses on. Intent on losing his bearings in defiance of caution, defiance of what is expected, defiance of, repudiation of this 'Hans' he is supposed to be. He plunges ahead. Into the snow. The gusting wind. Ripped by the "icy blast" from which he could not be protected even by SEVEN fur coats. He is now "staring into nothing, into white, whirling nothing." I'm struck by the thought that this ski adventure is nothing less than a parable of Hans' passage through life up to this point. The second time he skis past the shed, it is his only orientation, his marker, his "civilization." Nature (the white snow, the White Russian Clavdia - thanks Barbara) frustrates his progress. Perhaps it is "unreasonable" to even hope for progress. Which direction? Home? "More a matter of luck than sense." But Hans IS making progress. "But whether it was purposeful movement, movement in the right direction, or whether it might not have been better to stay where he was…" Have we not all asked ourselves this question of doubt? But Hans is not quite comfortable with where he is. Something is not quite right with "the ground under his feet." The "rage of the storm…had pushed him back." "False progress." But man is responsible for his own place in the world.

"What now?". Man MUST act. He cannot just abdicate responsibility for his own "place." Man cannot just give in to life (the "hexagonal symmetry" of death). Hans' "reason" tells him that the "muddleheaded" state he's in is not good. The "physical" part of him tells himself to give in, abandon himself. Look in the heading. It's Settembrini v.s. Naptha. European v.s. Asiatic principles!! (Naptha should head the second column by the way - Right should be Might). But give in to one's physical nature and you'll NEVER find your way home. You'll NEVER find yourself…Lost in that snowstorm forever…until "covered beneath hexagonal symmetry" (death). But it's EASY to give in. It's typical. Because "illness" (confusion, muddleheadedness, corruption of the spirit) "batters its victim", diminishes the senses, breeds self-narcosis, tricks man into ACCEPTING his fate, until he CAN NEVER FIND HIS WAY HOME.

Hans is badly battered. But he is struggling - "but in a muddled and feverish way." He's so disoriented that he begins not to care - the lure of self-narcosis: "The familiar blend of languor and excitement - which was the constant condition of a Berghof quest whose acclimatization consisted of his getting used to not getting used to things." Hans is feeling much like he does after a session with Settembrini and Naptha!! He even uses the typical modes of argument of both Settembrini and Naptha to the same end - TO CONVINCE HIMSELF T GIVE IN! HOW IRONIC

Another rapid descent. Another steep hill. But the road home, the road to self can be twisted and obscure, "for now and again the route to the valley would have to go uphill, too." Submit to the soft white incline??? Hans struggles on. LIFE -"Perhaps to some purpose, perhaps not, but he did his part and kept at it." It may be that this is all we can hope for…"You ran around in a circle, toiling onward, with the feeling in your heart of doing something useful, when in fact you were tracing a wide, foolish arc that led back on itself…AND SO YOU WANDERED AROUND AND NEVER FOUND YOUR WAY HOME

Pause.

Charlie

And here, in the snow, Hans will have a vision in which he TEMPORARILY attains his (Mann's) personal ideal - just as he had TEMPORARILY abandoned this ideal on Walpurgis Night.

(I love the way Mann periodically recaps a whole experience in a new way - like the Tienappel visit which was in many ways a microcosm of Hans' stay at the Berghof. Here, in the Snow, Hans slogging (my new favorite word) through life is mirrored by the way he slogs through the snow against the howling wind in a struggle to the death with Nature, as the snow swirls around him in circles as time swirls around man in a circular motion).

Hans has grown. Settembrini has preached to him that life is PURELY rational (perfection). But Hans' self-studies of botany, medicine, etc. have shown him that that type of pure perfection is NOT a part of organic life. INORGANIC 'life', YES! Remember that whole section about the great leap from the inorganic to the organic. That great leap was also a leap from perfection to imperfection. From DEATH to LIFE. Because only DEATH as represented by the "absolute symmetry and icy regularity" of a snowflake is purely consistent. There is a part of life, one might say that the very essence of life is IRRATIONAL. Isn't the phrase above just about a perfect description of DEATH. It certainly comes with ICY REGULARITY and there is and ABSOLUTE SYMMETRY to it in that we spring from ????? to life and it comes round full circle in the end!

Going round and round in circles in the snow, his sense of time destroyed, Mann attempts to show how death can be very appealing, inviting. Hans ends back at the "isolated shed." The door is barred. Locked. There is no way in. You Can't Go Home Again, Angel. The Womb beckons. I Hear Ya Knockin But You Can't Come In. The overhanging roof of the shed provides the "illusion of some hospitality". The image of a Hermits Mountain Retreat facing Mt. Fuji comes to mind (Barbara!). ("Come in she said, I'll give ya….shelter from the storm") But there is NO protection from the storm. Then the VISION. But that's another WHOLE STORY!

Charlie

VISION

Hans has a vision of the ideal of human existence. It's a rainbow of colors in a bucolic setting, the sunny Mediterranean representing the Rational and Harmonious world, the world of peace and common purpose, the land of the Children of The Sun. Hans synthesizes the duality of human existence and transcends it - the contradictions occur through man and so he is the master of them. Why do you think his vision, his dream, fades away just as he has found his ideal? Is this TM's expression of pessimism? An example of "cultural-backsliding"? A Chimera?

Charlie

First let me tell you one of the guiding principles of my life:

Charlie so well explained:

"Man MUST ACT. He cannot just give in to life. If Hans stands still, he will be lost - by accepting his fate and not moving, he CAN NEVER FIND HIS WAY HOME.

So, I will try harder to understand what is being said here, and stop skipping the 'hard parts' for fear of the avalanche!
pause......................

His original concept - a short humorous treatment of fascination with death (high mirth?) developed into the education of Hans Castorp in the conflicting ideas in pre-war Germany as expressed by Settembrini and Naphta.

"Mann determined MM would be a bulky book for a few friends, to the scorn of the literati and the boredom of the public.
...the furor of wanting to say everything was a dangerous weakness...his unfailing tendency to spread himself, and as he later admitted the draft proved as adaptable as a sponge in its ability to expand..."

That reminds me of one of the early chapters ...in which Hans is expected to go into the boat- building business and go into politics. People that know him express confusion - will he be a conservative or a radical revolutionary? June, I think you're right...Settembrini and Naphta fight for Hans, sensing that he has not yet formed any opinions, because he hasn't given any thought to anything but his own comforts...representing the intellectual indifference of pre-war Europe again. But why are they not trying to 'convert' Ferge and Wehsal as well? Are they not as bright, as interested...?

Well, this is stimulating and exhausting... will be back tomorrow to deal with the avalanche again tomorrow!

Hans/Joan


...and tragedy! tragedy??? Sweet Ginny has just introduced tragedy!!! I thought we had agreed that this is a tale of hope, courage and dignity? That man must act, no matter the consequences, he must take courage and act as he sees fit. Now I have something else to think about, besides the avalanche!!!

Have fun!
Joan

In the last section of Chapter 6 (The Good Soldier), Settembrini attempts to thrust upon Germany, through Hans, the responsibility for "the future happiness of Europe", indeed, of the civilized world. Settembrini implores Hans to choose, to break his and his country's silence, for silence is dangerous…..

The arguments between Settembrini and Naptha seem to get more heated, and Mann, through Hans expresses more and more that the "truly human or humane had to lie somewhere in the middle of this intolerant contentiousness, somewhere between rhetorical humanism and illiterate barbarism." But Hans "was no longer listening." There was a human life to attend to. His cousin was dying.

Charlie

Although I had the same difficulty grasping the arguments of Settembrini and Naptha as everyone else had -I was at least able to place them in the perspective that, I think, Mann intended. But I had trouble with Mynheer Peeperkorn. What can be in store for a young man with no direction, a now homeless wanderer? Set adrift from his moorings, Hans has become the quintessential follower. There is a vacuum here that he himself cannot fill. And what can be in store for a troubled world, reduced to petty self-interests, small minded, with no vision? A decadent, sick society in need of a cleansing? It's what comes after the cleansing that is the truly dangerous part. Who will come to a world in rubble after the war? All old alignments ruptured, set adrift from their moorings. If there is a vacuum, a void in Europe, then the danger is that it will be filled by charisma, by the cult of personality, for this is the lighting rod that attracts those unable to make the moral decisions for themselves. So this is the lesson I take from Peeperkorn - the man who truly said nothing, but was followed with awe by those around him due to the sheer force of his personality. This is a man, who given the right time and circumstance, can be truly dangerous. Follow the idea, not he man.

Charlie

Life has a funny way of choosing for you if you don't actively make the choice yourself. Time and events have their own inevitable logic and imperatives - landing at Ton Son Nhut airbase in 1969 told me so. Life interrupted? Life jump-started?

Charlie

No, I'm not worried about Hans yet. Remember that he has come from an intellectually indifferent society...and he has a lot to learn up here! Seven years? Not bad for someone who has spent his life on his own creature comforts. He's made steady progress! It's about time to go back down there and test his education!

...more rambling thoughts:
Is our Hans "snowbound" on that mountain by the blizzard of ideas from which his education and experience to date, have left him totally unexposed? Do you empathize with him at all? Do you understand his inability to "move", his helplessness? Do you consider him lost in the snowbank forever? Or do you see signs that he is evolving to the point of "movement"?

Ginny, my understanding of the statement..."man shall grant death no dominion over his thoughts", is that Hans has finally put behind him his fascination with death, and has concluded that love has dominion over death...that love is what life is all about.

He certainly is not a loving soul. Has he loved anyone at all in his life? Would you say he loved Clavdia? Does he express any concern or care for other human beings? Remember the visits to the moribundus? He would bring flowers and cheer? Do you think he continued those visits throughout his stay at Berghof? I don't think so. I don't think he visited out of any heartfelt charitable motives. I think he was fascinated and curious about death and this was a way to gain access to it...where he could see the power of death over life....

I think he has come a long way. His realization in the blizzard makes him realize that love is more powerful a mistress than death...and although he will not remember this new-found insight when he comes out of the snow, he has freed himself from this morbid, paralyzing fascination with death which he brought with him to the mountain. Progress, no?

 
Seven C's Settembrini Style Castorp Chicken
 
SERVES 1 TABLE
 
Seven Skinned and boned Chicken breast halves 
1/4 to 1/2 # butter 
2 cups flour 
Cinnamon, 2 tsp. 
Cardamon, 1 tsp. 
Cloves, ground, 1/4 tsp. 
Currants, 1/2 cup 
Cognac 
Cream, heavy, 1/2 pint 
Cashews
 
ADVANCE PREPARATION: Cover Currants with Cognac and steep 
 for Several hours. Rub spices into chicken pieces and refrigerate for 
 several hours. Several being a matter of perception which is left up to 
the individual cook.
 
Dredge Chicken Cutlets in flour; set aside for a few minutes as the big hand 
 makes at least 2 full circumnavigations of the clock face. Dredge again. 
FINAL PREPARATION: Saute chicken in butter over medium heat. Pour Currants 
And Cognac over Chicken and flame. Pour heavy Cream over Chicken 
And heat over low heat to keep Cream from boiling. 
Garnish with Cashews
 
Serve over Stelle or other small pasta
 

Charlie

Charlie, I find two useful things in preparing for the discussion of Portrait, which is largely autobiographical. It is important to know something of Joyce's background, and even more important to know what was happening politically in Ireland at the time. Yvonne, your interest in time line readings would be a real asset in this discussion. I hope you join us!

I just finished reading Dubliners, a collection of 15 short stories which tell of the same people and places of Joyce's childhood.. a great preparation for Portrait!

I've been thinking quite a bit about the "Magic" Mountain, and the meaning of the term. The German translation = "Charm Mountain". It casts its spell on all who approach it, ill or well. What is its power? I suspected those meals in the beginning too, , Ginny. But it's more than drugs and the air and the psychotherapy...
The illness has much to do with it. Perhaps supplying an excuse for staying...but the Mountain itself seems to represent an alternative from whatever, from life..? This doesn't explain Joachim. But he was disciplined enough to fight the charm (don't you wonder about his last conversation with Marusya? What could they have said to one another?)


I thought it very interesting that Mann placed Naphta and Settembrini outside of the sanitorium before developing the duel for Hans' allegiance.
Yes, I think Hans grew up without love. Yes, he was fascinated with death and its power before he came to the mountain. No, it was not death that brought him to the mountain, but rather he was not at all satisfied with his life below. Is that what made him sick? When one is deeply unhappy with his life, is one more susceptible to illness?

No, Hans does not love, does not find love on the mountain...but I think he realizes that is what is missing...that love is more powerful than death, that love is life itself and that life can not be lived on the mountain. That is what sends him back down. That is what he is fighting for... his life and the life of his people so that he will be free to love. Freedom!!!

I've had trouble with the use of "sickness" as a metaphor all along. I've never been abvle to explain it to myself to a level of comfort that I could believe in. Joan puts it very simply. I liked that.

Things actually begin to HAPPEN, in the last Chapter. Events occur. The beginning of the End is near. People are at each others throats. Hans arrives at the SEVENTH table in his SEVENTH year at The Berghof. It's the Time of The Apocalypse. I am reminded, at the end of the book, of the macabre Dance of Death at the end of Bergman's The Seventh Seal. So does anyone want to take a stab at the use of SEVEN in MM?? Just because it's an ancient mystical number??

Gleaned from the Net

The Pythagoreans called it the perfect number, 3 and 4, the triangle and the square, the perfect figures.

There were seven ancient planets. The sun was the greatest planet of the ancient seven and next to the sun, the moon, changing in all its splendor every seventh day.

The Arabians had seven Holy Temples.

In Persian mysteries there were seven spacious caverns through which the aspirants had to pass.

The Goths had seven deities, as did the Romans, from whose names are derived our days of the week.

In Scriptural history there is a frequent recurrence to this number. E.g. in Revelation 1:16 -- "and He had in His right hand seven stars, " alluding to the seven churches of Asia. King Solomon was seven years building the Temple. It was dedicated to the glory of God in the seventh month and the festival lasted seven days.

The seven deadly sins

The seven seas

The Greeks called 7 the "rational diagonal" of a square of side 5, apparently *because* (7^2)+1=50.

There are seven visible planets and luminaries (Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn). Each one rules a day of the week (Sun=Sunday, Saturn= Saturday, Moon=Monday, etc.) and that is where the seven day week came from. Each one is supposed to have a particular virtue or power.

"The 3 (spirit, mind, soul) descend into the 4 (the world), the sum being the 7, or the mystic nature of man, consisting of a threefold spiritual body and a fourfold material form. These are symbolized by the cube, which has six surfaces and a mysterious seventh point within..."

"The 7 days of the week, the 7 sabbatical years, the 7 years of famine, the 7 years of plenty, the 7 years occupied in the building of King Solomon's Temple, and especially the 7 liberal arts and sciences."

When Inanna the Queen of Heaven (the major love, fertility, and war goddess of the Sumerians) descended into Hell, she was forced to pass through seven gates, at each of which she was required to remove one of her garments, until she stood before her sister Erishkigal the Queen of the Underworld, naked and defenseless. She was then struck dead by seven plagues. Later, upon her return from Hell, she passed though the same seven gates, at each of which she resumed one of her garments. (See Samuel Noah Kramer and Diane Wolkstein's "Inanna, Queen of Heaven and Earth" for the full text of what happened to her in Hell and how she got out alive.)

The Seven Sisters is a term used to indicate the constellation of the Pleiades.

From: Yoke Lim

In Chinese culture, the number 7 also features rather prominently in some aspects of life. For example, the seventh day of the first moon of the lunar year is known as Human's Day. That day is considered the birthday of all human beings universally. That is why a Chinese is deemed to be a year older on that day, regardless of what the actual date of birth is. But this is not to say that a Chinese does not celebrate a birthday on the actual day of birth.

On a death, a special ceremony is held on the 49th day after death, that is, 7 X 7 days. It signifies the final parting.

The "shichi-fukujin," translated either as the "Seven Gods of Happiness" or "Seven Gods of Luck" are personifications of earthly happiness in Japanese folk religion. They are: HOTEI: the "fat" or "laughing" Buddha, who personifies your garden-variety mirth and merriment. BISHAMONTEN: the watchman FUKUROKUJU: the god of longevity JUROJIN: the god of scholarship DAIKOKU: the god of nutrition EBISU: the god of fishing BENZAITEN: the goddess of music. These seven are often portrayed together riding on a treasure ship, but may also be carved or depicted individually. Representations are often in the form of wooden or ivory amulets and most commonly are used to pin together the kimono. These seven gods are probably an expansion of earlier Chinese deities who fulfilled the same sorts of functions. The Chinese deities were five in number, dressed in the red robes of civil servants, and each was usually accompanied by a bat. In fact, five bats depicted together often stand in for the gods as a symbol of luck.

Charlie

Ginny: We're also going from Mynheer Peeperkorn to Raymond Peepgas in the same month. WELL!!

Peepgas notes, by the way that there are two kinds of true Male Animals: (1) those who go into investment banking, real estate, etc. the risk takers (The Mynheer Peeperkorns of the world) and (2) the passive males - those who go into commercial banking and sit back and collect interest.(Hans!!) HAHA

Charlie

. There is a thread in Salon: "I Conquered Mt. Everest - Tough Reads but Worth It." The Magic Mountain is mentioned a number of times (the word "slog" appears). One poster mentioned that reading Mann in the original German is supposed to be a completely different experience, he's quite a beautiful writer in his native topngue.In short, it was tough going, but worth it. I'll be back with more later.

Charlie

Here's the germ of an idea for a novel. A young man is working on his dissertation. The subject is something like "The Middle Road: The Philosophy of Mann's Magic Mountain". The idea is that he works on it forever. Never finishes. Can't bring it to conclusion. Finds new meanings everyday. New references. Can't come down from The Mountain (the Ivory Tower of Academia). He dies just as he's about to finish. His last words are: "agreed"

(:}

Charlie

Sounds to me like this is the death throws of the 19th century since war represents disintegration and death is really rebirth. I think his concept of Music as the soul of Germany is his truth and the Eagle will rise!

Of course Peeperkorn's death would be a symbol of the snake a classical symbol of the eternal conflict between the eagle and the serpent, opposites; mans higher and lower nature. The duality of every phylosophy offered and most characters is rampert through out.

To me this book is representing a carrousel of life - get on, stayed sheltered, go inside to do your climbing and on the mental level everything seems to be a conflicting set of ideas. His concepts of love do not seem to have much passion - just a bunch of turn of the century ideas and political forces that now seem hoplessly out dated with little romance given the knowledge of what happens in Germany starting just 20 years later. You have to actually deduce that he cares for his cousin because he calls him forth at the sceance (sp) But then, the cousin would have to die as he represents the Imperial, non questioning, act in honor for Germany, soldiar.

I say hoplesly out of date and yet a site I picked up at a German University has a paper and discussion about "the Polish Question - 1000 years of history and difference" seeing this war from German viewpoint is an eye opener and there may be more to Germany then a now democratic successful industrial nation. Mann himself warns the German soul needs to be contained and a unified Europe may be the only answer.

. "I see Peeperkorn not only depicting the Kaiser but, 19th century Imperial Royalty ringing in their death toil." (Barbara). I'm putting away my previous thinking on Peeperkorn and signing on to this one. The image shimmers!!

"Does nobody BUT me see the futility expressed in this book? Why spend ages, 7 years, educating the young man, having a crie de cour (somebody correct that, please) and then send him marching, singing, stepping on the hands of fallen comrades with his hobnailed boots, off into the jaws of death? " (Ginny). But in that futility, ironically, a glimmer of hope does shine, I think.

On the question of "relating" to a character in a novel: One thing I resent more than anything is being manipulated by a writer. I have already felt this in the early stages on the Tom Wolfe. Sometimes it’s a cheap authorial game, I think. So this is not necessarily a touchstone for me. On the other hand, one emotion certainly missing from the MM experience, is closing a book and missing some of the characters. I won't "miss" Hans.

In the end Hans has not changed at all. It has all been but a fairy tale, a dream, from which Hans awakens, rubbing his eyes in the meadow like a sleepy little problem child. Awaked by a clap of thunder like many a frightened child. Time will start up again. The watch must be replaced. The calendar pages will need to be turned once more. The stroll by the shore is over, the mist of the "abiding ever and always" has lifted. He has tumbled off the mountain. Whether Hans will gain his place in the regenerated world is an open question. But at least he had a glimpse, an "intimation of a dream of love". There is only one line in this novel in italics, and that appears at the end of the Snow section: For the sake of goodness and love, man shall grant death no dominion over his thoughts." "And with that I shall awaken. For with that I have dreamed my dream to its end, to its goal. I've long been searching for that truth: in the meadow where Hippe appeared to me…" . Hans, "the entranced sleeper" is awakened. The Magic Mountain is burst open. In the end, Mann is ambiguously hopeful for the future of mankind after its "festival of death", after the orgy of "science gone berserk."

I know that for many readers, if a novel is not an enjoyable experience, in and of itself, then the lessons that may be taken away from it are just not worth the time spent. I think this is fair. I've a newfound respect for that stance. I myself have found the experience of reading and discussing in community so to speak, has rekindled my joy in reading, and that the whole experience transcends the reading and the work itself. Every book I have read here has been enriched and enhanced by the perspectives of others. So it has been in many ways difficult to evaluate a work by itself, in a vacuum. So I won't say yes or no - I'll just say, thanks for the ride - let's do it again.

Charlie

Frau Kitty's reaction at finding him still there waiting for her? "It is irresponsible of you to be here....to wait was stupid and impermissible. You should have gone back to your work long ago". And yet she concludes that the reason she came back was to bring Peeperkorn to Hans so that....that Hans could help her care for him? So she wouldn't feel so emotionally alone with Peeperkorn? Peeperkorn seems to pick up on the relationship between Frau and Hans when he tells Hans to kiss her forehead and he refuses. It seems that Peepers wants someone else involved in his relationship with Frau too!!!

So what does happen to Hans' great passion for Frau, which kept him waiting for her return? He recognizes her selfishness and lack of caring and she claims,

"you Germans are not passionate - live life for the sake of experience - you do things only to enrich yourselves....you are repulsively egotistic. One day you will be the enemy of mankind."

So how is Peeperkorn a better man than Hans in her eyes? "Peeperkorn loves me, makes me proud and grateful". Admits she has been annoyed at Hans' detachment toward her in the past..
This time she proposes a friendship with Hans...doesn't know if he has "depth", but he IS "subtle". What does this mean. Is this an unfortunate translation.?

She proposes they form an alliance for the sake of someone, rather than against. OK, so then why did she "Russian" kiss him? Why not a handshake? Is that it? Is that the end of their romance. When Peeperkorn dies, she leaves. No romance between the two, because they shared the kiss of friendship? Will someone please explain this to me?

Have a thought about the hobnail in the hand...but will go read it again. I am SO grateful you folks are here to the very end...

Once I began to recognize and identify with Hans, I was fine. At first I recognized him as one of my sons, who has been caught up in academia for seven years (to avoid making career choices down in the flatlands). Finally he is descending...and his decision about what to do with himself is about as difficult for me to understand as Hans' decision to become a soldier.

As time went on, I began to see more of myself in Hans - my own increasing inability to act, to make decisions! I could easily spend 7 years listening to all sides of every argument. Charlie, I love your idea for a novel! "Agreed!"

But I learned something rather significant when lost in the snow with Hans...something which will change my life! My long-term guiding principle - "When in doubt, it is better to do nothing" has changed... forever! "When in doubt, do something!!!" ACT! MOVE! LIVE! JUST DO IT!
Now how valuable is that? I think it's worth ten out of ten! I think it's worth **** out of four! So I guess I'm the out-lier in the group on this one! It was work! I slogged! But I did it and it was worth the trek!

I believe that this is the final tenuous link Hans has found to his moment of insight in the Snow. He loved to play it on the phonograph player at the Berghof. The final irony is that he sings it to himself as he marches off to his probable destruction in his hob nailed boots. This is poignant, and a case can be made tragic. I believe Mann makes such a case when he said that Hans' fate "might have been different if his disposition had not been so highly susceptible to the charms of the emotional sphere." And yet this susceptibility allowed Hans to mature into a love for the world. In a sense, Thomas Mann sacrifices Hans in what he sees as a necessity to allow a rebirth for civilization.

Charlie