Memoirs of a Geisha ~ Arthur Golden ~ 6/99 ~ Book Export

We have had a number of discussions about the ability of male writers to give voice to female characters - most recently regarding Tom Wolfe in A Man in Full. We had the same discussion - the flip side of the coin - as we read Barbara Kingsolver's The Poisonwood Bible. I took up the reading of Memoirs of A Geisha with these discussions banging around in my recent memory. Here was a male writer who was attempting to give voice to a female character. And give voice in perhaps the most challenging way - in the guise of a memoir. And not only would the character be a female, but an Asian female. Not only cross gender, but also cross-cultural. It was with some skepticism that I embarked. So I was startled to realize how quickly I was drawn in to this character. How thoroughly I forgot that this was a male writer - in fact how thoroughly I forgot that this was a novel and not a 'genuine' memoir. And I mean quickly - almost immediately. I think this is quite an achievement right off. Impressive.

Golden creates an illusion in much the way that a Geisha creates an illusion with her makeup and studied allure. I wonder if this thought ever crossed Golden's mind - that he was engaged in the very art that Geisha take as their life's work. Golden has painted his mask so well that you forget who is behind it. Is it possible that the Translator's Note device sets the stage for this so perfectly as to allow such a swift acceptance by the reader? What do you think?

Charlie

Joan Pearson where are you? We miss you and want to know when you're coming back.

Love,

Charlotte S.

I'm excited that we are finally starting this book. I read it back in April and have returned it to my daughter so will not have it for reference. I had mixed feelings at the beginnings of this book,but must admit I had no thought whatsoever of the male writer.I thought he did an excellent job, though.

Prissy - I too am sometimes intimidated by the insights our folks post - they are so amazing!! I never could have thought of some of the things people say. Yet I've felt completely welcome here! Stay with us!

Charles and Betty - it's funny that you say that about Golden's voice and how quickly you forget he's behind Chiyo. I find myself thinking - all the time - that he is there, and that he is doing a really great job of giving this woman a voice, and that he is really very knowledgeable about geishas. It's because he does this so well that I keep thinking about him! Wondering where he learned all this, and how he was able to cross gender/cultural boundaries to give her a voice. Poor guy can't win with me - if he was BAD at it - I'd think about him for that. Because he's so GOOD at it, I also find myself thinking a lot about him and wondering what is his own story.

Korean Memoirs- part 1 of 2

In the late summer of 1945 not long before the Japanese surrender on the deck of the Missouri, I was stationed in Okinawa as a member of the 24th Army Corps headquarters where I was busy running the mimeograph machines cranking out detailed orders for the invasion of Japan and pinup drawings of the seductive Tokyo Rose done in Steve Caniff style.

As it turned out we didn't invade Japan, but we did occupy the Korean penninsula below the 38th parallel and sent an army armored unit there to take the surrender of the Japanese troops in Korea and transport them to Japan. That was accomplished very quickly and the headquarters unit followed to set up a transition military government pending negotiations with the Russians above the 38th for the removal (ethnic cleansing if you will) of the Japanese government units ruling Korea and the civilian Japanese living there. The Koreans did not harbor kindly feelings toward their former Japanese rulers and were eager to have them gone.

Negotiations with the Russians for a unified Korea got nowhere. We backed our dictator (a man named Rhee) to set up a theoretical democratic state and they backed theirs. The result was two separate dictatorial regimes. Ours many years later did in fact turn into a semi-democracy in a modern industrialized state and theirs stagnated as you know in a Marxist dictatorship to this day.

I was to return to Korea in 1950 as an army reservist artillery forward observer to fight in the Korean Conflict. But that is another story.

In 1945 I was assigned to assist the management of a field grade officers quarters, a hotel in Seoul that the army had commandeered. It housed the majors and colonels who ran the military government. The generals all got palatial private homes. The seargent assigned to head the non-commissioned military staff at the quarters was soon rotated back to the states as he had a long record of service in the war and I had gotten in only at the end of the action at Okinawa and had nine more months of active duty before returning stateside. I became the NCO in charge in the residence and reported directly to one of the officers in the hotel.

The quarters assigned to the officers was a traditional Japanese hotel, the Kiraku hotel. I have some pictures of the hotel scanned from postcards from the hotel.

They are at Kiraku Hotel

How does this all fit into a discussion of Memoirs of a Geisha? Only very incidentally- but then one of the reasons I wanted to read the book was to refresh and illuminate some memories of that time. I'll share some of them with you (excerpts from a planned longer set of memoirs) as the discussion gives me an opening to slip them in and try them out on you.

One of the officers asked me about the history of the hotel and I volunteered to see what I could find out and write a short blurb about it to go with the postcards that we kept in the lobby area to pass out to visitors.

What I discovered was that the hotel had been built in the 1920's as part of the Japanese effort to modernize the capitol of their new colony, having taken over Korea in 1910. The name of the city was changed to Keijo and Nipponized. Shinto shrines were built, Japanese became the official language, and many artifacts of the Korean culture were destroyed or replaced as much as possible with their Japanese counter part. A Japanese business man built a modern western hotel in the down-town area for western visitors (complete with sit-down toilets) and then also built the more traditional Kiraku in a newly established Japanese walled in section of town on a hillside below the main Shinto shrine that dominated one of the several hills in the city.

This was the most traditional Japanese area of the city with tea houses, private residences, several Geisha houses, with the Kiraku just inside the western entrance of the wall that surrounded the area.

During World war II the hotel was taken over by the Japanese Navy and served as a kind of R and R establishment for Navy officers who came there to relax. Two Japanese matrons much like the "mother" and "auntie" of the Memoirs were hostesses there and I talked to them briefly before they were sent to Japan in the first wave of deported undesirables. The ranking colonel in the hotel, a spit and polish West Pointer, had all evidence of its past quickly eliminated and its present occupants sternly warned that no Japanese Navy style R and R would be tolerated in the hotel.

The "madams" gave me very little information but I was able to examine some of the artifacts of the hotel including an impressive volume of exquisite Japanese pornography, boxes of official Japanese Navy condoms, and a collection of not so exquisite anti-western propaganda material depicting Americans as huge hairy ape-like brutes. These garish, ugly ladies did not like me and I did not like them so I got little information from them and didn't believe the little I did get, including their claim that the Americans had actually stolen the atomic bomb from the Japanese who had developed it but were too humane to use it and had hidden it in a mountain cave where American spies had found it.

From what I could gather the hotel had hosted parties at which Geisha entertained as there was a Geisha house in the neighborhood with genuine Japanese Geisha. However, the mainstay of the R and R there were the most attractive of the Korean women that the Japanese had enslaved as sex slaves to satisfy the needs of the army and navy men. Some of these Korean women had been trained in rudimentary Geisha skills but were essentially used for sex. I think some of them have since sued the Japanese government for reparations and been quietly paid off. Much of this information I learned from my interpreter who worked also for the newly formed military government and had connections with both traditional Korean and Japanese society.

-to be continued

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Korean Memoirs- part 2 of 2

In what proved to be a futile effort to avoid deportation, one of the Japanese local government officials who was working with the military government transition team volunteered the services of his two English speaking teen-age daughters as waitresses at the hotel. I was 19 at the time and soon became friends with the girls as they discovered I was a bashful boy and not a hairy beast poking around in caves looking for atomic secrets.

They came each day dressed in fine kimonos (obis tied in the back) and served at the main meal in the evening while I ate in the kitchen with the help, usually a plain oriental meal of rice and dried seaweed supplemented by canned army chow sometimes being served by "George", a grubby little Korean street boy we had taken in as our shoe boy and Americanized.

When we arrived in Seoul many Korean street boys ran in gangs throughout the seamier side of the city. There were no Japanese social services for abandoned or orphaned Korean boys and informal army policy tried to remedy this by taking them in to work at various army installations while attempting to find Korean homes for them. Reading "Memoirs of a Geisha" gives one an idea of why there were no comparable street girls. Nobody was allowed in the front entrance of the hotel with shoes on, and the shoe boy's job was to collect and polish the shoes left at the entrance and return them when the owners went out again. George was very bright, learned quickly, and soon became an invaluable helper for me keeping track of the people entering and leaving the hotel and assisting me with the office abucus in tallying up the laundry bills for each officer for the informal "grey market" laundry service we had set up.

The dining room floor consisted of the traditional straw mats and the officers sat on the floor and were served by the girls who knelt beside them as they served the meal- poured tea- bowed and bowed etc. They were not Geisha but the grace and charm they had was very Geisha like. The officers were very disappointed when we later replaced the girls with some awkward Korean country girls fresh out of the rice paddies and completely inept at bowing and tea pouring, but very strong and helpful in carrying the "honey buckets" to empty the hotel's sewage holding tanks when the honey wagon came by each month.

I sometimes escorted the sisters home from work to where they lived in an impressive timbered residence about a half mile up the hill. They were filled with quiet smiles, moments of laughter, earnest talk, and whispering eyes that turned away when we spoke of Okinawa where boys they had known had died, young men who would never again be like me and enjoy hearing an occasional giggle from one or both of the girls. On one starlit night we stopped and standing closely together looked for falling stars.

Before they left Korea they invited me to a farewell dinner at their home where I sat on the floor with the father as the girls and the mother kneeling beside us prepared the food and served it to us with all of the deference and ceremony due to our gender. I was treated to a traditional multi- course Japanese meal- I wish I could remember more of it to describe to you, the charcoal fired cooking pot, the fine china dishes, the little fish that looked at me as I ate them, the strips of beef.

While I generally watched the father and followed his lead, I had not mastered the technique of savouring Sake but sloshed it down as if drinking beer in the PX at Fort Sill while the girls dutifully refilled my delicate little cup with warm sake. The last I remember about the meal was sig zagging later down the narrow street back to the hotel singing a popular Japanese hit tune of the day, a lilting western style love song, frightening several feral cats who were up on the wall in their nightly romantic ritual. I'm sure if the residents in the area had a choice they would have preferred the cat serenade to mine.

I sometimes wonder what happened to the family when they returned to Japan among the last group to be deported. A few short weeks after we arrived they along with the other Japanese were herded together on the docks at Pusan and put into LSTs for the short ride back to Japan allowed only to take with them some pocket money and what they were wearing.

I returned to Korea five years later and after a month of training in the hills of the south left Pusan in an LST headed north, landing at Inchon near Seoul, riding in a 4X4 through the ruined streets of Seoul I could see the downtown hotel now rubble and assumed the Kiraku had burned. We quickly rumbled through the city streets and continued up toward the 38th and into war. I was no longer a boy but a young married man thinking now of my bride in a midwestern city far away.

Golden creates an illusion in much the way that a Geisha creates an illusion with her makeup and studied allure. I wonder if this thought ever crossed Golden's mind - that he was engaged in the very art that Geisha take as their life's work. Golden has painted his mask so well that you forget who is behind it. Is it possible that the Translator's Note device sets the stage for this so perfectly as to allow such a swift acceptance by the reader? What do you think?

Charles,

Out minds are on the same track. That is what I thought as I read the fake introduction.

But as I got into the Memoirs I quickly forgot that thought and succombed to the author's illusion.

Thanks, Jim--what a wonderful post!! I read it and then I reread it==great to hear this first hand account!!

I read this book a while ago. I didn`t expect to get into it as much as I did. Golden did a good job. My FTF book group read it and, if I remember correctly, no one thought it wasn`t a worthwhile book to read and discuss.

Wow! Jim, what a great and interesting post!

Jim - weren't the Korean women called "comfort women"? I have read about their lawsuits for reparations and I don't think the payoff was all that quiet.

I am not far enough into the book to know yet whether the geishas were also used for sex. If they were, it would continue a fine tradition that continues in Asia today - look at Thailand and the infamous sex tours that American and European men take there to sample the local women. In this day and age, of course, AIDS is rampant in Thailand.

It makes me angry, I must admit, to hear about these women. I don't think I'll be able to hide that anger as we discuss this book - just a fair warning!!

Lovely painting and discription of a Geisha Geisha Girl

A silk rolled painting of a Geisha reading a letter painted by KUNISADA

This wonderful short 1997 memoir with photos of an 84 year old Geisha that is "proud of my profession" Immortal Geisha

And finally a series of photos, starting with a tinted print of a Geisha applying neck powder photos of Geisha

Our American sensibilties urge us to view the geisha in an unflattering light. We rush to judge them as prostitutes. But taking the historical times and the eastern culture into account a different attitude begins to emerge. When Mr. Tanaka Ichiro sells Chiyo to Mrs. Nitta there was much more to the transaction than a mere exchange of money and product. He was trying to save her from the life that was waiting for her if she were to remain in the village without a mother and with an indifferent father. There were no possibilities for a woman to receive any kind of education or establish a career on her own. The majority of young girls would become virtual slaves and baby machines and most likely die young. Chiyo had a beauty that was a marketable commodity and Mr. Tanaka Ishiro thought of himself as her benefactor and friend because he was able to "save" her from what was an inevitable outcome without his intervention. As far as the prostitution aspect of the geisha life, true sex was only the most minor aspect of the entire persona. The seduction, the beauty, the musical talent and ability, and the companionship were all more valued than the actual sexual act. The day that she met Mr. Tanaka Ishiro was "the best and worst" of her life--the worst because her life as she had always known it and expected it to remain was transformed into something completely unknown, and the best for the very same reason.

Betty - There are a couple of reactions that people seem to have regarding the fact that this was written by a male writer. It's unusual that the genesis of completely different reactions can be traced to the skill of the author at 'giving voice' to his character. Like yourself and Jim, and probably as the author intended, some give no thought to the gender of the author, at least while reading. Some, like Sarah, are so impressed with his skills that their interest in the author himself is piqued. While reading, I generally never thought about the author. When I put the book aside, I would sometimes marvel that this male author could weave this aura so completely.

Golden, of course, studied Japanese Art and History in college, and worked for a time in Tokyo. There, he befriended a young man whose father was a "famous businessman" (like The Chairman), and whose mother was a Geisha. The manuscript was rejected numerous times, written in the third person. It was not until he did his fortuitous 'Interview with a Geisha' that he found the right approach - changing to the memoir style. That was obviously a good choice. Also, the conceit that this was a reminiscence of sorts by a Japanese Geisha, living in New York, to what would be an American audience, allows him to 'teach' about Geisha life in an off handed way. He gets quite a lot of information about Geisha life into the novel, but it's spread out over the course and never seems didactic. Frequently, Sayuri uses phrases like, "perhaps I've mentioned this before" which are quite effective. I'm wondering, May, in your FTF discussion, were there those that resented this being written by a male or had any negative reactions based on the gender author issue? I guess this is just something on my mind, as we have had a number of discussion about this issue elsewhere.

Since it is generally agreed that he does a good job of drawing us in to this world (we forget this was written by an American Male author. But we forget other things too. Sarah - I still find it fascinating that this was such a popular novel, because we are taken in to this world, this culture so completely, that we accept pretty easily that a major facet of the life is the selling of child virgins!! How did THAT happen!! So, no. Anger is understandable. One wonders that there is not more of it perhaps. Literature is a funny world. It can really take us places where we would never choose to go…accept things as natural based on the context. It's hard to grapple with.

Thanks, Barbara, for the URL's. I had found the memoir one, but none of the others. Those postcards are great, aren't they?

Jim - Wonderful memoirs of your own. Let me say that as a college graduate, draftee, I spent a tour in Vietnam in Army general HQ (Long Binh, Vietnam). I worked in - believe it or not - Protocol. Protocol in a War Zone. So ask me why I love Kafka so much!! Anyway, out little unit had two rooms reserved for us constantly at the Embassy Hotel in Saigon. These rooms were used for visiting Congressmen, foreign War College students, etc. - your usual junket dogs. I'd guess you could imagine some of the uses these rooms were put to in order to find the "light at the end of the tunnel.". You've obviously crafted your memoirs over time. They have been written with care. When did you start them?

Prissy - One thing I don't quibble with is that Tanaka Ichiro probably did what needed to be done. He identified with Chiyo, being an orphan himself. He knew that there were limited possibilities for the sisters. He admired Geisha. He expressed concern for Chiyo's and Satsu's treatment as they were getting on the train for Kyoto. And I like to think that he wouldn't have condoned Satsu being sold into prostitution. I elect to give him the benefit of the doubt. Chiyo's "lopsided life" in her "tipsy house" was coming to a swift end, anyway. Another reason the day she met Tanaka Ichiro was "the worst" is because that's also the day that she learned her mother was terminally ill with bone cancer. Even as a child, Chiyo somehow knew that " Mr. Tanaka Ichiro saw the world around him as it really was." I think this is probably true. He knew what must be done. In Chapter 8, his letter to Chiyo, informing her of the death of her parents is quite affecting. At one point he tells her that

"The swan who goes on living in it's parents tree will die; this is why those who are beautiful and talented bear the burden of finding their own way in the world."

I believe he felt that he was doing the very best he could for her…in that time….in that culture.

The comments everyone gives are fascinating-also jim's personal recollections. My father was stationed in Japan after the war. There was always much snickering about the geisha's as we assumed they were "just prostitutes." Now I know the truth and have a much different point of view. As the story develops-remember some of the characters. They are woven back in at later times. As for Golden-I completely forgot about him as I "listened" to the memoirs. I felt this approach set the stage perfectly for him to write it. How else could it have been done-except by her telling him so. What a beautiful and heart-wrenching book. It just gets better and better. I could clearly see Chiyo's beautiful grey eyes-so unusual and feel apprehension at what would happen to Satsu-the unattractive sister. Also, the pain of the father-doing the best he could in a dire situation. Given the situation those days in Japan, women without mothers-living in a "tipsy house" had a grim life to look forward to.

First of all your posts are all so interesting. They help me think more about the book.

I agree that Mr. Tanaka did what was right for the girls, but if he was so interested in them why didn't he follow up on Chiyo and her sister to make sure they were all right?

I didn't think about the author being a man at all once I got into the book. I would think that the device of using the Translator's Notes is to make it look authentic. Is it true that this is his first book? That is really hard to believe.

It was in the 1930's I think, and it was a different culture and a different time, but the unkindness of most of the charachters at that time is very disturbing to me. Why do people act so terribly toward others? That really does bother me a lot as I read of the early days at the Geisha houseor okyia in Gion.

Jim .... thanks for the writing your notes. What an experience!

Speak to you soon.....Love, Fran

I thought it very sad for Chiyo in her little crooked house, (I don't have the book any longer and have forgotten the exact phrase) and to think that families did not communicate any more than hers did. It might be that,as some of you have suggested, Mr.Ichiro was being kind to Chiyo and her sister, but why not give them some inkling of where they were going; and as someone mentioned, he should have kept in touch with them after moving them "to the city." And how awful for Chiyo to be a servant for such an arrogant person as THE GEISHA of the house.

Chiyo's family - She meets Mr. Tanaka Ichiro - Kyoto - The separation - Chiyo starts school and is Registered - Hatsumomo and Saruyi - A failed escape - The

Charles, I don`t remember much being said at all about the author being male at our FTF discussion. It didn`t bother me at all--I marveled at the excellent job he did. I didn`t expect to really like the book--I had no special interest in Japan--but it caught me right away. After reading your excellent comments, I think I am going back to reread--BTW, isn`t there a movie in the making?

You're right, sealpup-san!!. Some characters I kept expecting to come back and they never did. This left things unresolved in my mind. Other characters, come back in dramatic ways, eh?? Pos-i-tive-ly Dickensian. Plot twists, revenge, nastiness, its got it all.Fran - You make a good point about Tanaka. I don't think he can be defended on this point. In Chapter 8, Chiyo seems to come to an understanding about how Granny has come to be the way she is - "the wrong sort of living" can turn anyone mean. It's a hard life and "even stone can be worn down with enough rain."Betty - Chiyo's "tipsy house" does make her seem very small and vulnerable doesn't it? May - Not just a movie, May. A MOVIE. Spielberg. 2001. Japanese cast. I can hear the Joh Williams score already!! A Christmas Blockbuster. I'm fighting off the hype already!!

Much is made of the "personalities" of the characters - personalities that seem to be predisposed to act a certain way based upon their "makeup." Chiyo takes after her mother and Satsu takes after her father. Satsu has "far too much wood" which seems to be taken as a negative - at least as related to her prospects to be amenable to training as a Geisha. Satsu didn't want to believe that their lives would change - she's ROOTED to her home. Chiyo, on the other hand, at every turn seems to be adaptable, willing to change, keen to signs of important life occurrences. The first thing the okiya notices about Chiyo is that she has "a good deal of water." Chiyo senses the possibilities of another life - her sister cannot. Chiyo saw the difference between what life might be like at the Tanaka house (her fantasy of adoption) and her life at "tipsy house." It was "the difference between the odor of something cooking and a mouthful of delicious food." Over and over, these traits are emphasized in the two sisters, especially in Chiyo. She even has a revelation showing her the way to escape, as when she is washing the floor, the water seems to run uphill - pointing her way to the roof and her ill-fated escape attempt. But the aspect of this Water-Wood essence that was really intriguing comes at the end of the novel. I'll leave that for now, but it's an interesting theme that pops up over and over. I got to thinking about myself and which aspect I'd choose. It seems that there can be both present. Probably balance is the ideal. I'd like to think, though, that Water would dominate my personality. I'd choose it to describe myself. But I wonder if others might well choose Wood. And they may be right. Especially as I get older, I'd have to say that Wood becomes more and more predominant. I wonder though, if this is not the natural way of things? I think we come to value that aspect of ourselves as we age, at least. The Water aspect is explored in our youth as we come to value our roots, as we come to know and understand ourselves. We come to know which battles to fight; we know our strengths and weaknesses. In many ways, this is a novel of growth given limited possibilities, a triumph of personality over obstacles. As water finds its own level, so does Sayuri triumph with grace as she comes to understand the possibilities of her life.

Ah, Charles-but who will play the parts in the movie? I hope they stay true to the book. I would certainly love to imagine that I have more water in my personality. I actually thought of this several times while "listening" (I'm the one with the books-on-tape version). I found myself even thinking of the other characters as having wood or water. It was obvious with Chiyo because of her eyes and the way she looks at life.

Tanaka is self-serving but then each person must survive in this truly foreign culture. We think of kindness and communication in our own American terms and times. During the l920's in Japan it is about fate and survival. Some have choices, some do not. That is so unknown to us in our time. Much of the cruelness and pain you will read about tests the will humans have to survive under the harshest of conditions. Just like the animal world-the most adapted, clever and most able to make use of what they are born with will make it. Water goes with the flow. Wood is rooted and therefore must take what it gets. To be born beautiful in Japan during those times at least gave a young woman a chance but competition to make it in the world of the Geisha is fierce as you will see....

Amazing, a Movie - that was my thought as I read the book - I bet this is going to be made into a movie - sorry folks, in many ways I thought the book a light weight, simple direct focus with enough color as well as, our current interest in all things depicting the history of the orient, to be just right for a movie. I thought Poisenwood had so much more depth. Memoirs... did not suffer with too many plots or themes.

What propelled me forward, as I read, was the intrigue and the financial aspect. It was like watching a game of chess to see what move would be made next as well as, the economics of a business in action. Chiyo/Sayuri really becomes her own enterprise. Hahehe reminds me of Real Estate in that every mistake is so costly. I have often said Real Estate is the most expensive school you can attend. Well, now I have to ammend that, since the Geisha's economic stewardship started in childhood.

Change the dress and the place to pre WWI England or for that matter, most of the west and we find a girl child, from poverty or not, share similar experiences. The western girl child's prize may be marriage rather than the life of a Geisha but often, she prepared herself to be married for money or as a diplomatic pawn envoyed among families. In fact most divorce or sexual liaisons by the husband outside of the marriage were blamed on the woman, who could not keep her husband 'properly entertained'.

Wasn't the expression, 'it was the worst of times and the best of times' used to discribe WWII? Interesting play on words considering Sayuri's memoirs include this period in history. Once again we learn how our enemy, of the time, coped with their daily exhistance.

Evidently, learning to play the Shamisen is not easy, as this site explains: learning the traditional Shamisen This site has a clickable that allows you to hear the sound of a Shamisen: Virtual Shamisen

In the Fujiwara period, Pure Land Buddhism, which offered easy salvation through belief in Amida (the Buddha of the Western Paradise), became popular.

Concurrently, the Kyoto nobility developed a society devoted to elegant aesthetic pursuits. So secure and beautiful was their world that they could not conceive of Paradise as being much different. The Amida hall, blending the secular with the religious, houses one or more Buddha images within a structure resembling the mansions of the nobility.

The Ho-o-do (Phoenix Hall, completed 1053) of the Byodoin, a temple in Uji to the southeast of Kyoto, is the exemplar of Fujiwara Amida halls. It consists of a main rectangular structure flanked by two L-shaped wing corridors and a tail corridor, set at the edge of a large artificial pond. Inside, a single golden image of Amida (circa 1053) is installed on a high platform. Applied to the walls of the hall are small relief carvings of celestials, the host believed to have accompanied Amida when he descended from the Western Paradise to gather the souls of believers at the moment of death and transport them in lotus blossoms to Paradise.

Raigo (Descent of the Amida Buddha) paintings on the wooden doors of the Ho-o-do are an early example of Yamato-e, Japanese-style painting, because they contain representations of the scenery around Kyoto.

Amida Buddha and A scroll of Amida Buddha from the Kayota National Museum a lovely golden statue of the Amida housed in Geneva Amida in museum in Geneva

Japanese culture is made up of many layers-old and new, foreign and native. Politics is a mixture of old and new customs. The three essentials of food, clothing, shelter are blends of Japanese and Western elements. Japanese practices both Buddhist and Shinto rites, and, more than half of the Japanese language is comprised of Chinese-derivative words.

Japanese have been very adept at making foreign elements their own to create something that is uniquely Japanese. This goes back beyond the Heian period when Japanese kana characters were created out of the more complex Chinese characters.

Kamakura Buddhist introduced to Japan in the 6th century, did not spread until the appearance of Honen and Shinran, founders of the Jodo and Jodo Shin sects. Honen taught that all that was needed to attain salvation was to recite the name of Amida Buddha, and Shinran, his disciple, elaborated on this by stressing that Amida Buddha had prepared the Pure Land precisely for the salvation of the wicked. A pure and simple faith over complicated rites and doctrines, appealed strongly to the Japanese. Highly pragmatic, emphasizing specific circumstances more than universal truths made it possible to create Japan's worldly Buddhism and why the Confucian ethic of the Edo-period shogunate was far better in its practical applications than in its theory. Even in modern science, Japanese show more aptitude for scientific applications than for basic research.

Memoirs of a Geisha has many referrances to Buddhism but, especially to Taoism which was adapted within both Buddhism and studied by Confucius.

Barbara, how fascinating! It needed me to take 23 mintues to download something so I could hear the shamisen, but I don't have time now, but will later. I have heard them before, tho. Cat skin, no wonder they sound so.

And I also see I'm behind as we're to have 8 chapters for this week, so need to add another one. I'm not sure about the voice yet. I'm not sure I don't hear the writer, will hold off my thoughts on that for a bit.

I don't understand the sister's flat affect so far or what it means but am not even to the end of our section here yet.

Water or wood? I surely must be water. Does water attract water, I wonder? Uh oh just read Charlies and Sealpup's posts and see water is desirable, so was not wishing to compliment self. I thought of "water" as sort of a flowing moving sort of consciousness, not necessarily good or grounded or anything else. Ephemeral. Looking at that lesson for learning Shamisen, I wonder why all things Japanese have to be so studied and difficult? It it in that torsion which appears to permeate everything artistic or aesthetic that is the only way one can appreciate art or anything else?

I must say this is opening my eyes a bit, in that I thought Geisha were NOT prostitutes nor anything sexual, I guess we can see who has a lot to learn here!

I am impressed with the author's credentials!

Ginny

I think it is important to note that Mr. Tanaka sold both girls knowing ahead of time what the fate of each would probably be. It was to him more a matter of profit as he had each girl examined very carefully by Mrs. "Fidget"- stripped and examined each in detail and most likely each in relation to her age. Satsu's breasts are examined quite carefully, for example.

At this point on the story we aren't told all of what Mrs. Fidget might have been looking for but it becomes clear later. One of the techniques Golden uses in the narration is to withhold certain information from us as the narrative moves through time as if the point of view were limited to what the narrator sees at that particular point in time in spite of the fact that we have a narrator's preface and know the narrator is writing at a much later time and could easily (and sometimes does) give us a little glimpse of future events as we move along.

This point of view technique becomes very important later as the "Romance Novel" - the chairman bit- unfolds and we are very carefully fed information to heighten our suspense over that outcome through various carefully contrived twists and turns of the plot.

But I digress.

Looking back at the sale from the perspective of information gained later in the narrative we can assume Mrs. Fidget was determining not only the beauty and cleverness of the girls (water and wood and all that smoke screen) but whether they were virgins or not as the price goes down considerably with the loss of virginity as we learn later.

And we are given just enough information at this point to assume Satsu was not a virgin based on what the narrator sees occur between Satsu and the Sugi boy. One can easily extrapolate beyond that.

But Golden would not have had to use the Sugi boy although he comes in handy a little later to sugar coat the end of the Satsu story.

He sugar coats a great deal in the narrative which is one of the reasons this is a much shallower book than Poisonwood. Besides this tendency to sugar coat and avoid confronting issues that a more serious work should confront, he depends quite heavily on little plot twists and tricks here and there-

It is entirely possible that Satsu's virginity might have been lost by incest which is one of the largely untold aspects of the darker underside of rural Japanese family life of the period.

But that is not something Golden would want to confront as it might force him to do a little more than tell us a happy ending highly saleable fluffy romantic story.

Well, quite frankly, that scene bothered me and I found myself wondering why on earth a child that age wouldn't be intact, I guess there's a lot I didn't know going on here.

And Golden would certainly know the aspects of Japanese Society, that was a fascinating post, Jim, so you think his style is deliberate.

For once, I'm going to be glad to read a book with a specific idea in mind to watch out for.

Ginny

BUT does this point out the author's intrusion into the voice of the novel, then?

Ginny

Barbara-where does your amazing knowledge of Japanese culture come from?

Ginny-I don't think water necessarily attracts water and having "water in your personality" seems to describe not only an inner beauty but the ability to adjust and compensate for life's difficulties. It seems to only apply in describing women as I recall.

Jim-I didn't read Poisonwood. I agree this is not heavy-duty reading material but that's what I liked about it. The story unfolds and the characters develop in a easy-to-follow narrative. I never found myself going backwards in the book nor trying too much to figure out what was being said or why. I read books mainly for entertainment and the chance to emerge myself in another place or period of time. That's why I generally prefer non-fiction-but that is how this one reads.

Re: the virginity issue-without it the Geisha's ability to gain more and more stature (and money) for the Geisha House is limited. Another reason to take girls so young and mold them into these perfect actresses-always (hopefully) holding out for the richest and most accomplished man. The success of the Geisha House and support of the members of the household depends upon it. I gathered that Satsu was not a virgin-in addition to her looks and wood personality her fate seems to be sealed. I worred about her thoughout the book!

I loved Chiyo's description of her lopsided life in her tipsy house!

My book group has just finished reading Memoirs of a Geisha, and we are about to discuss it. I'm sure Barbara knows the answer to this....are there still Geisha in Japan and if not, when did they end....WWII ? Having been to Japan, 3 weeks with my son and daughter-in-law when they lived there for a year...he there for business, I never knew how important kimono were. Also, having read Shogun, and having visited the castles around Tokyo and Hiroshima, I am slightly horrified at the violence and lack of respect for life...warriors chopping people in half, men committing sepulka at the drop of a hat. Yikes! I loved the book, though, and couldn't put it down. What courage Chiyo had. And po

I never gave a thought to the fact that the author was a male. I'm always fascinated with other cultures, especially the Chinese and Japanese. Mr. Golden had me completely enthralled in the story and, until the last few chapters of the book, was convinced this was a "real" memoir.

Eileen Megan

sealpup My knowledge isn't of Japanese culture as much as it is Taoism. Taoism permiates Eastern phylosophy, religion, astrology, divination, meditation, in short the culture of the East. Memoris of a Geisha is riddled with references to the I Ching and Taoism. The I Ching, (Book of Change,"Change, that is the unchangeable.") although some in the west use it as a parlar game, is like the Bible of Tao and the phylosophy is incorperated into Buddhism.

Taoism went underground during the year 200 B.C. becuase quasi-Confusianism was made the official way of thought, only to re-emerge from secrecy in the early part of the first millennium A.D. when Buddhism from India was introduced into the Chinese society. Confusius studied I Ching and said, "Give me a few more years to study the I Ching, Then I should have a good philosophy of the mutations of human events."

The I Ching is first recorded in China in about 1700 B.C.And scholars generally agree that Fu Hsi originated the trigrams and hexagrams of the I Ching some time before 3000 B.C. To the Chinese, Fu Hsi is the Father of our present civiliztion. He taught men the use of fire, how to build homes, live in communities and engage in agriculture.

Budda lived in India between 600 and 400 B.C. Buddhism spread south in one form to Sri Lanka, another form to Southeast Asia and yet another to Central Asia then simaltanious to Tibet and China and then on to Korea and Japan.

I've been a student of Tao and I Ching for 12 years now and truly have only scratched the surface. Memoris... is written as if the author used as his outline the characteristics of K'an or water. Later in the story he refers to the 5 elements and discribes them as they all affect water. The 5 elements are: earth, metal, water, wood, fire. Your birth year determines your element. The attributes of that element are woven into your life as the element of water is woven into Chiyo-chan's life.

I was not as fimiliar with the history, culture or religions of the Japanese nor when Buddhism was introduced into Japan or how Buddhism mingled with Shintoism and therefore, I purchase and I'm absorbing Japan, a Concise History by Milton W. Meyer Polite Lies by Kyoko Mori The Japanese Experience by W. G. Beasley.

I take personal interest in my sprititual quest. Having been brought up by the Benedictines and the Carmalites both contemplative orders the study of eastern religions especially the phylosophy of the Tao has deepened my contemplative and meditative life. I throw my I Ching nearly every day. If you are interested in learning your guiding element please just email me your birth year.

I should add that I'm closely associated with the Indonesian community, all of whom are of Chinese background as well as, have several Chinese friends. Many of my friends are Christian and several are Buddhists. My sister also has several Chinese friends that emigrated after Tienimen.

Barb - how interesting!! Sounds as if you've had a very fascinating life. Hmm - I was mistaken about the elements - I thought they were a reflection of one's personality, and not linked to birth year. Interesting.

I have a friend who spent a couple of years in Japan right after college. I'm going to try to get some insight from him on the present-day geisha "scene" - if it exists.

I worry a lot about Satsu - I think we're far enough along in the book to know that she really was a prostitute. Charles, without revealing what comes later, do we learn of her fate?

The women in the geisha postcards Barb put up were so sad looking! Maybe one had to look "modest" - big smiles probably weren't considered appropriate (except for the smiling geisha that apparently appeared in many postcards in the late 19th century).

Mr. Tanaka - some seem to see him as a good guy. I saw him from the beginning as a bad guy - someone who duped Chiyo with flattery and led her into the hands of bad, mean people who beat her and made her their indentured servant.

This IS what happens in Thailand today - young peasant girls from the villages are lured into the cities with false promises that they'll be maids, waitresses and the like. The families allow it because they are in poverty and the daughters will supposedly send money home (most of the time they don't because their debts - just as Chiyo's - mount up almost immediately. Instead of being maids, they are put into the "sex trade."

What's the difference here? I just don't see it.

As I read this selection,can't help thinking...shades of Grimm or Anderson. From what I gather it even has the happy ending.

I have read more than half way through and find it interesting reading if only to learn about the geisha her role in society and the culture from which she comes.

The story I find, moves along quickly and I return to it with interest. However I find the characters to be under-developed. Hatsumomo for example ,appeared to be an equal opportunity hateful person except when it came to Sayuri. Here she truly detests the girl and unless I missed it, there is no mention as to why she is so particularly hell bent on Sayuri's destruction...more so than anyone else who might be a threat to her.

I just never know how to do this - I do not want to share to bore and yet, there is so much depth that a book can reveal when references are known. Therefore, at the risk of overwhelming I will share the attributes of K'an or water so that, as these attributes arise in the story they will be like patches of recognized flowers along the path.

K'an symbolizes winter, night, darkness, poverty, difficulties in wisdom through a number if irritating and upsetting situations. Conforming to law and order is the best course. Research is highly successful. Like the bud of a blossoming tree buried under snow which prevents it from growing, very few things go truly smoothly. One encounters much pressure and trouble, friends and associates are far less communicative than usual, there is the likability of being robbed, having one's confidences betrayed.

Water people will have difficulties even in early childhood, particularly in connection with family matters, separations, finances and security. The most fortunate period will be the middle years of their life and one should capitolize on those to gain the necessary postion and stability to carry on thru one's later life.

K'an men and woman will have an outgoing personality and will tend to please others, attracting many acquaintances. Much of what they say will be superficial in nature, while they keep their true nature hidden, they use flattery and false words extensively. Many born under this element tend to be loners and enjoy solitude. They strive to improve themselves; this relates to all aspect of their lives, professional, mental and spiritual.

In appearance and outward actions they will seem calm and umperturbed in the presence of the opposite sex. But, In reality, love is their weakness and Achilles' Heal. Once they fall in love they will become more and more deeply involved, to the point they cannot find a way out of their biological trap.They are often not monogamous. Never the less once they become associated with someone sexually they will be reluctuant to let them go and partners often find it difficult ot break free.

Their primary attribute is Danger and Hardship. Winter is their season and their occupations typically include Fishing Industry, fisherman, prostitutes, reflective Writers and lawyers, philosophers, chemists, resturant owners, waitresses, workers in dairies, bar-keepers, printers and dyers, Masseuses. Their special sites are rivers, wells, funeral parlours, brothels, waterfalls, hot springs, bars, liquor stores, hospitals, convalescent homes. Their room is the bathroom, they wash dishes, floors. They persevere, worry, have hidden crimes and roads are intwined in their lives.

All of these attributes, opposition and fellowship, are this spirits 'Way" or Tao or path to Nirvana.

"The reason why rivers and seas can be lords of the hundred valleys is that they lower themselves to them well;"

Higher good is like water:
the good in water benefits all,
and does so without contention.
It rests where people dislike to be,
so it is close to the Way,
Where it dwells becomes good ground;
profound is the good in its heart,
benevolent the good it bestows.
Goodness in words is trustworthiness,
goodness in govenment is order;
goodness in work is ability,
goodness in action is timeliness.

Well let's see, can one be sort of a combination or does one have to be EITHER water or wood? oh boy. (Do I or do I not sound like Rachel?)

Kitsan!! Welcome!! Welcome~~ How marvelous to see you here, Charlie will be so excited!! Always want to hear what a F2F Book Club said about a book! Please check out ALL our folders here in the Books and plan to stay a LONG time!

And Nettie!! And Megan! and Helen! And Fran! How fine this group is, and Sarah, what good points! Now, Barb, that's not me, can I be something else besides water?

shallow, hmpf! hahahahahaha

Ginny San, I think we all need names!

FAt San

Ginny - just email your birth year and I'll look it up for you. In fact anyone that has an interest - just email me your birth year. Barbara

sealpup - "the most adapted, clever, and most able to make use of what they are born with." You are right, these things, especially Chiyo's cleverness are referenced constantly.

Madonna at the Grammys in full regalia (and on the cover of Harper's Bazaar) might be perhaps the tip of the Geisha iceberg, culminating in the Speilberg epic. The actors will be Japanese (and unknowns, at least to American sudiences). If you can find them, and I couldn't unless you wanted to purchase, there are a number of films by the great director Kenzi Mizoguchi, including Sisters of the Gion(1936), and The Life of Oharu (1952) - ("One of the most moving of all Mizoguchi's films and, as Joan Mellen wrote; "Perhaps the finest film made in any country about the oppression of women.") Ugetsu you might be able to find in a big city video store. One of the great films.

Charlie

While reading these posts I started to think of the training of the geisha as similar to the traning of those little beauty queens, which I consider repulsive, to put it mildly? Now why would anyone want to teach young women to behave in an artificial manner to please men.? Well, of course to get them to give you money so you could be independent. But how are you independent if you are dependent on their money?

I suppose there are women in Japan today who are trained as Geisha, but most of the young women I see on the news are similar to our young business women.

I am enjoying this book a lot in spite of my negative comments.

I think I am definitely steel. Not water, not wood, just stainless steel.

Speak to you soon.....Love, SoJoFran

I have found Memoris of a Geisha most interesting. I find it hard to believe this is Author Golden's first novel. Beautifully written.

I had never really given much thought to this subject but now find I am totally engrossed.

Have enjoyed reading the post as much as the book.

Josie

I'm here to defend the "honor" of Satsu. Mrs. Fidget (p. 26) does verify that both sisters are "intact" - still virgins. She may not have been for long and it may very well be that Tanaka knew exactly what would happen the Satsu. SO I can't buy the incest angle, Jim, but she did seem to have that listless demeanor which sometimes hides a deep "shame."

Kitsan - Oh, there surely ARE still Geisha in Japan although not being sold into slavery to get their start. The numbers, I understand are quite reduced from the heyday.

SarahT - There are a number of "loose ends" that never get "resolved" which is a bit of a disappointment, I found.

WELCOME, Josie. Golden spent nine years writing this. The book we read here a couple months ago, Tom Wolfe's A Man in Full took about the same amount of time. Imagine. Two decades - two books!

Wow, what an interesting discussion. Barbara-your knowledge of Taoism seems to be so much more complex than Golden depicts. All I got from the "wood and water" was elements of the personality-but that shows my ignorance. As someone else said-the most interesting part of the entire story is the life of the Geisha herself, the structure in which she must live and the characters she meets along the way. I also like the way the story unfolds over the years even though we do lose a few threads along the way. I don't mind using my imagination.

Fran, I found your reference to Jon Benet something to ponder. The Geisha, however, never really becomes independent. Some comparisons to exploitation can certainly be made.

Charles-of course, you are right they were both virgins. I'm afraid if Satsu had not been intact, she could not have been sold. I've finally got my tapes running again. The disadvantage of tapes is I can't just turn to page 26! The mention of the Satsu's "friend" I think is just so he can be brought back later. I'm sorry, I truly cannot see Madonna playing the movie lead even though she did the video based on her impressions of the book. But then I'd chosen Clint Eastwood for the Horse Whisperer. It will be interesting to see who you choose for The Chairman.

sealpup san

Barb - I was fascinated by your post on water - and would be interested in knowing the same information about the other elements. What do the others think?

Fran - GREAT analogy to Jon Benet and those little beauty queens. Especially in the fact that while neither geisha nor little beauty queens are expected to have sex (again, I'm assuming this about geisha since I haven't seen evidence of it yet in the book), they are expected to titillate and use their femininity in very sexy ways. To deny that sexuality plays a part in either role is, I think, to deny reality.

Interesting story about Japan and the position of women on the radio today. Birth control pills are not dispensed in Japan - they have not been approved by the Japanese equivalent of the FDA. On the other hand, Viagra sailed through the "FDA" and is now readily available for men in Japan. Japanese women are very angry about this seeming double standard. So while they may look like American women - they still are treated very differently (not that things are so equal here, but . . . ).

Sarah - Golden would agree with you, I think. This from the "official" interview:

Q: Here's a question you've undoubtedly heard before: Are geisha prostitutes?
A: As a matter of fact, all through the years I worked on this novel, that was the first question people asked me. The answer isn't a simple yes or no. The so-called "hot springs geisha," who often entertain at resorts, are certainly prostitutes. But as Sayuri says in the novel, you have to look at how well they play the shamisen, and how much they know about tea ceremony, before you determine whether they ought properly to call themselves geisha. However, even in the geisha districts of Kyoto and Tokyo and other large cities, a certain amount of prostitution does exist. For example, all apprentice geisha go through something they call mizuage, which we might call, "deflowering." It amounts to the sale of their virginity to the highest bidder. Back in the '30s and '40s, girls went through it as young as thirteen or fourteen--certainly no later than eighteen. It's misleading not to call this prostitution, even child prostitution. So we can't say that geisha aren't prostitutes. On the other hand, after her mizuage, a first-class geisha won't make herself available to men on a nightly basis. She'll be a failure as a geisha, though, if she doesn't have a man who acts as her patron and pays her expenses. He'll keep her in an elegant style, and in exchange she'll make herself sexually available to him exclusively. Is this prostitution? Not in the exact sense we mean it in the West, where prostitutes turn "tricks" with "johns," and so on. To my mind, a first-class geisha is more analogous to a kept mistress in our culture than to a prostitute.

Boy,there is certainly a lot going on in this discussion.

Charles, thank you for correcting my crooked house to tipsy house.

Ginnie, I do have always thought of geisha girls as prostitutes, and after reading the book, don't think we are far from wrong.

As to Mrs. Fidget's examination of the two girls, I thought that was so sad for those girls. And they apparently said nothing, but just allowed this to happy to them. I agree, they were both virgins.

I shudder to think about incest. To me,that is one of the lowest things a man can do to his daughter/sister.

Sarah, I think Mr.Tanaka WAS bad or else he would not have taken these girls away from their homes without telling them anything. Granted, they would probably have had very poor lives, but living the life of a geisha certainly was not appealing tome.

I think Hatsumomo was mean to the young girl because she was jealous, knowing she was growing into quite a beauty.

And my last thought for the night, for it's bedtime, putting beautiful children into pageants like Jon Benet's mother did, is a fantasy for the mother, wanting the child to fulfil some fantasy the mother wants. I would never have done that with my own daughter,and she was a doll, course,I'm prejudiced!! (BG)

Little Chiyo thought it would have done no good at all.

Barbara - Thanks for the K'an post. You're right, it's uncanny (or maybe NOT so) how many analogies there are to Saruyi. A recurring image, obviously closely related to "water" are the fish images. I haven't counted them, but I'll bet there are over a dozen. I believe the first, and one of the most striking, is when little Chiyo meets Mr. Tanaka Ichiro in that "moment that would change everything." In the rain, she had fallen face first into the mud, and was carried into Tanaka's seafood company seemingly being enveloped by the odor of fish. You can almost hear the fish slapping around on the floor as they clear a space for her on the cutting tables. She replaces the fish. Tanaka (with skin like "grilled fish"), examines her lip, "pulling it down with his fingers and tipping my head this way and that." If you have ever taken the hook out of the mouth of a large-mouth bass, you know exactly what this looks like (and what the bass would be thinking if he was inclined to thought). She's been fished up from her "lopsided" life and like a prize fish, he almost seems to be deciding whether to keep her or throw her back. Golden does a nice job here: intertwining little Chiyo's thoughts of what she knows about Tanaka (he "saw the world around him as it really was"), with Golden's purposeful imagery. Yes, (Ginny) Golden DOES interject himself here - subtly though - to give us a glimpse (SarahT) of what HE thinks of Tanaka. He (Tanaka) very deliberately flouts the superstitions around him by having Chiyo spit her blood out onto the floor while at the same time calling her beautiful (the first). (Later, in Gion, Chiyo senses affection for Mother much "like what a fish might feel for the fisherman who pulls the hook from its lip.")

As the sisters are headed back to the seafood company for their "inspection", they are accompanied by baskets of "little fishies", staring up at them, glassy eyed, their mouth twitching in silent screams. Chiyo feels sorry for the fish, even rescuing one that fell out onto the road. Rescuing it for its slaughter, which she knew was its fate. "The poor fish."

I note also that Barbara has told me that " Water conquers fire - quenching ". Chiyo's mind kept returning to an image of her mother during this period. Remember the festival lanterns had caught fire and the wind suddenly took one drifting toward Chiyo's mother? Her mother "threw her arms into the fire to scatter it…and no one -- not even my mother was hurt." Somehow this comforting image fortified Chiyo and certainly validates what Barbara has set before us.

Charlie (aka Aqua Boy)

Never even thought about the fact that at one time, men played the part of a geisha. Strange people!! Recalling the incident of Chiyo being placed on the fish table in the market made my nose to form a smelly situation and then for Tanaka to tell her to spit on the floor, all apparently against their customs.....weird.

I had reservations when I first started reading this book, but the foregoing comments have really opened up much discussion.

I asked an e-mail friend from a mailing list about the book since he is also on a Japanese culture mailing list.

His comment was that the author had done mostly anecdotal research and had many factual errors in the book.

He certainly fooled me. I'll see if my friend can give me some specifics.

He also noted that the novel had originally been written in the third person but was changed later and according to his reading at least the change was not as smoothly done as it might have been.

As a third person point of view novel depending on how limited the author made it some of the little awkward means of getting the narrator to know things out of her ken at a given time would not have been needed.

I wonder what other changes were made in editing.

The author sets up his "romance novel" mystery ending by giving us two major possibilities- the Beauty and Beast scenario- or the Daddy Warbucks one-

For those who haven't finished the novel I won't give away the ending- but I do wonder if the one finally chosen was the original.

Well, everybody write Barbara, because I find I'm not water at all but green spring wood, she's got me down cold, too. Spooky!!!

SoJoFran:

Stainless steel, hahahahaha, boy what an image. Too bad everybody can't see your photo you look like a teenager, will find the cruise photo and put it up!

Oh the JonBenet thing, how awful, in retrospect. How bizarre: what a connection: well done!!

Aqua Boy: Movies!! Let's DO, let's try to find one and watch it, I already feel steeped in Oriental culture. Love the fish, by the way in the heading.

Josie: It's something, isn't it, I feel swept away and appalled for the little girls and what on EARTH is the matter with Mother's eyes? Mercy.

By the way, we keep hearing about the OBI, what IS that??

Seems to be a different color and pattern.

How about that "China Clay? Uggg.

What's with the white face? What does that signify? A dream like creature for men's fantasies?

sealpup: Loved this: "I'm afraid if Satsu had not been intact, she could not have been sold. "

So far in my reading it would have been better for her not to have been? Feel so sorry for the poor little girls.

Sarah: Did you SEE yesterday's article, in, I think, Newsweek on the latest in Japanese technology? The....water closet which analyzes your output and sends it to the doctor, and talks to you? I must scan that in here. The article says in modern day Japan of extreme technology, privacy is apparently a thing of the past. You all won't believe this, if you don't see it with your own eyes.

Betty: Yes, I also felt very sad for the girls on the exam and on their subsequent removal from their home. Golden does a good job here, I was incensed like Sarah, and so sorry for them. Good writing here, the characters do seem so real.

I agree it's a very strange culture and time. If Geisha are so well thought of why is Ho....momo (sp)living in such relative squalor without any man present??

FatSan

Jim, we were posting together! What great infomation: will want to hear about the factual errors, Golden is certainly credentialled enough not to make them.

As far as Voice, I do want to watch that, how perceptive of your friend. Can we get him/her in here too?

Ginny

Perhaps Golden doesn't particularily care about the factual errors because the work is after all, fiction. The average reader wouldn't pick them up. The detail comes in his use of words, nuances, and visual descriptions presenting the reader with a sense of time and place-romance novel style. Does anyone know if Michner was completely accurate in his historical fiction? I see Golden in a similar sense.

Ginny-I guess I did feel in these early chapters that it was better for the girls to be sold and have a chance at a "better life" than to live in squalor, but that is only in the context of this book. Satsu obviously does not end up better off. It depends on your own perception as to whether Chiyo does. Are top models better off making millions of dollars with their faces plastered on glamour magazine covers and coveted by the wealthiest of men than marrying the boy next door? Only they know.

There is so much symbolism and superstition in Japanese culture. Much is made of the fish not unlike our own "Native Americans" use beaver, eagle, salmon in their art, religion ,etc. don't you think?

The obi is the elaborate sash of the kimono. Remember the stash of kimono's in the store room? They are more valuable than the town itself and the ones for the apprentice geisha are kept in a vault. Everything about the geisha is a facade. Chiyo speaks this herself in describing Hatsumomo as just a girl once her makeup and kimono are removed. The elaborate make-up, dress and attention to detail creates an illusion of the unattainable. If she becomes the ultimate geisha she is set for life and so is her geisha house and the people she supports. Hatsumoto is threatened by the beauty already evident in the young Chiyo. She is obviously also threatened by "the perfect one"-Mamiya and thus blackmails her servant into giving her one of Mamiya's most beautiful kimonos. She then forces Chiyo to ruin it. Auntie sees through the sham but must follow grannys orders to discipline Chiyo. The structure of the geisha house is set for life. It reminds me of a human pyramid scheme.

Is the geisha a prostitute? Some are because they don't obtain the highest position of the most accomplished geishas. Only a few will reach this pinnacle. There is not much choice for a has-been geisha. If she reaches the top of the pyramid she is more like the mistress of a very wealthy man but will always be objectified. This eastern-western comparison is voiced later in the novel.

Hmmmm, is she or isn't she - that is the question many have focused their energy. Looking up Prostitute not only is it; soliciting and accepting payment for sexual intercourse but; one who sells his abilities or name to an unworthy cause.

What is it that bothers us regardless of Law or religion. After all, both law and religion are reflecting our innate feelings. It seems ok to give sex away but not sell it and it is abhorant to have it taken from us so let us not even go there. Yet, we want to sell our abilities or our name to worthy causes and give sex away to a worthy cause. How do we measure the worth of a cause? What happenes if that worthy cause disappoints us? The idea of preparing ourselves to sell our abilities for the highest dollar seems ok and yet not ok to prepare our bodies, character, skills to please another and receive the highest dollar. How did we feel about Satsu-san giving her body to the boy in the forest? Do we turn love into a commodity when we say that is what we expect as well as, faithfulness when we give our sex away?

Hmm I have no conclusive thought only, all these questions. Giving our name away to an unworthy cause does not seem to hold the stigma that we judge giving sex away to an unworthy person does as well as, selling sex seems to immediatly tag the buyer as unworthy. I think in Japan giving your name away to an unworthy cause is more disgraceful than selling and buying sex. I think we prefer that, once you give your name to another you no longer buy sex from another. We experinced a history of the buying and selling of a name and prefered to create romantic love as the cause celebre to giving sex away 'after' we gave or took the name. And yet aren't we becoming like the Geisha when we prepare ourselves for romantic love never mind preparing ourselves for selling our abilities for either a promotion or to be hired on by the company of our dreams (our romantic conclusion of its worth).Hmm are we really all Geisha's about something?

But, what ever we are, what I do get from reading Memoirs is a demonstration of the Japanese pragmatism spilling into everyday life. And the soil that allows the priciples of Taoism. To do the best from within and with what you are handed, measuring success not by the outcome. What ever you are handed is your opportunity to growth that will lead one to harmoney and a higher good.

Falling in love is the Achiles' Heal for water people. Continuing her mental involvment with the chairman, who by the way she met on a road while crying (tears are water) - both attributes of K'an, is the motive that keeps her calculating and hesitant while responding to the duties of her life's path (or way or Tao) and 'wanting' a certain outcome.

Ginny - about the white face makeup - I seem to recall hearing from one of my best friends growing up (whose mom was from Japan) that dark skin in Japan was a sign of the peasant. People of the upper classes strove (strove?) to be as "white" as possible. Maybe the white face is an extension of that?

Charlie - great discussion of the fish references. For me, the fact that the fish stench was part of Chiyo and Satsu's departure from their old life made the new life seem tainted and evil. I've had this bias from the beginning of the book and cannot seem to shake it. I have yet to see anything positive for Chiyo in this new life. Maybe things change . . . Satsu's life is even more horrible.

How to choose - between a life of squalor in one's village and a life of forced "glamour" in the big city? I'm so glad I've never faced such a choice. I know a lot of kids come to San Francisco because they're escaping a life of hardship elsewhere in the US or abroad. Yet so many of them fall on hard times here - drugs, "massage parlors," poverty. I just cannot decide what is better - living here or staying home - both are terrible!

To change the subject, I remember that at some point in the 70s "obi belts" were in fashion. I had a dress with one. When unfurled it was wide in the center and narrow at each end. You put the wide part on your tummy, then wrapped the narrow ends around your back and brought them back up front and tied them over the wide part.

Now I realize that in the world of the geisha, an obi tied in front identified a prostitute. Oh well!

Ifound the book throughly delightful, and when I was away from it I could notwait to get back to it. I loved the references she made when describing her feelings or a scene, or a person's look. In many instances I found myself smiling to myself. The ending...well I wonder if that isn't a little contrived. We do like happy endings... Giovanna

I don't know if this has already been presented but if anyone is interested, I found a Q&A with Arthur Golden about "Memoirs ..", I don't know how to do "clickables - here is the address:

Conversation With Arthur Golden

Eileen Megan

Q&A with Arthur Golden about Memoirs ..

Betty - Didn't it seem that Tanaka deliberately had Chiyo spit on the floor? It was as if he wanted to flout superstition. If that's true, why do you think that was?

JIM - It would be interesting to have some of the factual errors pointed out, or at least what area he is talking about. It would be surprising given the nine years spent writing, his degrees from Harvard and Columbia in Japanese Art (BA)and History (MA). Not to mention his extensice interview with a Geisha. It is true that his 800 page manuscript written in the third person was rejected a few times after initial interest - supposedly too dry. After the interview, he apparrently entirely rewrote in the first person. I did very much like the release of information about Geisha life in an informal, narrative manner by the first-person memoirist. I found that effective.

I'm not catching your Daddy WaArbucks and Beauty and the Beast references, but please hold that thought, I really want to open up a discussion about Romance writing and style, etc. when we get to that point and I want to remember your references. I'm sure there are others. Thanks.

Teriffic - thanks for sharing the interview site - am I understanding correctly that even the translator's notes are part and parcel of the novel?

Oh yes, I am serious in my above post - What did you immediatly feel and think when Satsu-san was sharing her body with the boy? I think her being labled the year of the cow brought a negative impression to my mind. But then I was reacting to my western opinion of a cow and therefore I saw Satsu-san as not too bright and probably being taken advantage of was her simplicity and sexuality. Need to find out what the year of the cow represents - anyone know off the top of their heads?

accuracy- I will try to contact the person who found the inaccuracies. She is a grad student doing her Ph.d dissertaion on Popular Japanese culture.

Michener- very spotty in accuracy.

A great story teller- like Golden is.

His Texas book and Mexico Book are pretty generally discounted in academic circles for many inaccuracies.

Beauty- Chiyo
Beast- Nobu
Daddy Warbucks- the chairman

Baron- the Doctor- composite of Marquis de Sade

My reading only, of course.

Fran,

I agree reminds one of the Jon Benet Ramsey thing.

Also interesting to see Chiyo as Barbie, distorted feminitity but in different styles.

Satsu must have been one of the lost threads when the book was changed to first person.

Hard to follow her story without using 3rd person narration.

Also hard to really follow Pumpkin as seen only by Chiyo. I saw her as a weak link in the characterization. She pops in and out as needed in the plot and takes on whatever chamelion quality is needed at the moment to advance or add a twist to the plot.

Ok, found it - The Ox/Cow personality is diligent, hard-working, stable and calm. Through the Ox's fortitude and respect for tradition and custom, the Ox is undeniably a symbol of logic and resolute thinking. Always an asset and good provider for the family's well-being, the Ox will not hesitate to care for his loved ones and make great sacrifices. The Ox holds equally high dignity and strong morals to match.

Ginny!! - Green Spring Wood. Positively sounds like something out of Sir Gawain!! Just to add one more comment about the obi: Remember that Geisha had them tied in back by their Dresser but prostitutes tied them in front for easy exit. When we wonder if the sisters would have been better off not having been sold into their respective slaveries, I think we need to follow through on that thought and posit alternatives, to be fair. Satsu would have probably ended up the same way (with the Sugi boy) without having to have gone through the interim horrors she did. I think it's more difficult to come up with (in THAT time, in THAT place, under THOSE personal conditions) a better alternative for Chiyo.

Glad to see you here, Giovanna. Hope you didn't have too much trouble getting in.

An interesting analogy, sealpup to fashion models. And you're right - only THEY can answer that particular question. One aspect of the whiteface and the elaborate make-up was the smile, in Chiyo's case, the "noh" smile that she cultivated which, as she says, came in very handy in masking her true feelings. One interesting aspect of Geisha is, if you'll notice, that great beauty is certainly NOT a requirement. There are many examples of this. Of course, great beauty will, or can, put one at the top - it certainly IS an asset, but not, apparently a requirement.

Barbara - Provocative as always. You used the word "pragmatism" and I think that is right on, a major way that the "successful" characters in this novel approach life. Also " Continuing her mental involvment with the chairman, who by the way she met on a road while crying (tears are water) - both attributes of K'an, is the motive that keeps her calculating and hesitant while responding to the duties of her life's path (or way or Tao) and 'wanting'a certain outcome." Not to mention that this all took place beside the Shirakawa stream.

Thank you to both of you for the cickables to the sites that we can read what Mr. Golden says about the writing of his book. Bless bookmarks. Now I can go back and read that at my leisure.

What do you think of the character of Mameha? In contrast to the character and behavior of Hatsumorto she is quite a bit more kind. But......Is she just trying to get back at Hatsumoto for the ink on the kimona episode? If that is the case she is really just using Chiyo, which isn't quite as wonderful.

Thank you all for your great posts. It adds so much to my enjoyment and understanding of this book.

Speak to you soon.....Love, Fran

Giovanna: I sent you an email to ask if you would care to be included on our emailing list, but your email was returned... If you are interested click on my name and send me an email.

SarahT - I'd bet the "white face" make-up" of the novel, derives from NOH THEATER as did Saruyi's cultivated "noh smile" which hid her true feelings. It also seemed to me that at some point, the white face was more or less optional. Can anyone remember/clarify this? You said: "For me, the fact that the fish stench was part of Chiyo and Satsu's departure from their old life made the new life seem tainted and evil. I've had this bias from the beginning of the book and cannot seem to shake it." And yet, in the wagon, amidst the fishes and their smells, slime on their faces, flies buzzing, when Chiyo catches her first glimpse of the train, and sees its smoke curling back from the engine, what she first thinks of is "the skin being shed from a snake." New skin, new life. Her image, Golden's interpretation. How often, do you think, do we read an image out of the mouth of the memoirist (Saruyi) which, in the context of the novel, points us to the author's meaning?

The Noh theatre, has a place in Japanese society that bears some analogies to the place Shakespearian drama has in the West: the dramas and their stories are well known; they were composed several hundred years ago; they are in the archaic language of that time; were performed only by male actors until recently

Noh theatre differs from Shakespearian theatre in being some two-hundred years older, having a wider repetoire (about 240 pieces, compared with 38 for Shakespeare), having a more balanced mixture of music and dance, using masks for many of the actors. Many of the masks in use today were made many hundred years ago.

The aesthetics portrayed in Noh are: understatement, abstraction, refinement and suggestion which arose from the three major influences on 14th century Japanese life: (A) the feudal code of ethics of the Samurai warriors; (

the elegant manners of court nobles; (C) the asceticism of Zen Buddhism. Despite this partly Buddhist basis, many of the stories in Noh restate the myths of the other popular religions at that time. The stories in the dramas can be traced back to the 8th Century, and even before that to origins on the Asian mainland.

The dancing in Noh has a variety of origins -
Kusemai: Mime performed by Buddhist monks while reciting poetry.
Kagura: Shinto dances containing the use of the fan and the form of the musical ensemble, used to invited the Gods to be present.
Eunen: dances of the Buddhist priests at their festivals.
Dengaku: music and dances from the fields and the rice festivals.
Bugaku: imperial court dances of 12th century Japan.
Furyu: popular songs and dances of the 14th century performed intermittently to avoid pestilence or achieve salvation.
Sarugaku: acrobatics and magic tricks.
Mai: means turning and refers to a dance done by itinerant priestesses in Medieval times.
Odori:means leaping and refers to the leaps of male Shamans when they attained the ecstatic frenzy of possession.

It is performed on a stage approximately 19 feet square. There is no scenery except for a painting of a pine tree on the wall at the rear of the stage. This tradition dates back to the time when Noh plays were performed in the open at shrines which usually had a pine tree nearby. For a similar reason, there is a narrow row of plants around the stage and three pine trees in front of the walkway.

On the platform at stage right sit the chanters. On the platform at the rear musicians. Their instruments are flute, small drum, medium drum, and large drum. Dances are an intrinsic part of many Noh plays; are generally slow by balletic standards, with no gymnastic quality. Although there are leaps and jumps, virtuostic leaps and spins are considered vulgar. The dances refer to Japanese Gods who came down to earth, whereas in the West the Gods are imagined still to be in heaven above the sky.

It has been said that true beauty in dance cannot be achieved under the age of fifty.

Charles--I agree with you that this was probably the only way out of a miserable life for Chiyo, IN THIS TIME AND PLACE.

To me it seems like many of you are failing to take the time and place into consideration. At this period of time in Japan, geishas were admired and respected by all phases of society. This was a step up from the poverty and meanness of the life Chiyo had to look forward to in her tipsy-house. Possibly this could be compared to the model's faces plastered on every magazine cover and billboard today. They may be selling clothing or makeup but in the end one of the main things they seem to sell is sex. The fact that they don't actually engage in the act of sex doesn't change the fact that sex is the primary end effect.

Fran--of course Mameha was using Sayuri and I think that Sayuri was always aware of this. But she also was helping Sayuri achieve the desired outcome. So maybe Sayuri was using Mameha's influence and power just as well. It was a mutually beneficial arrangement--Sayuri received excellant training from a well respected and renowned geisha and Mameha got even with Hatsumomo and made some money in the bargain.

Even when looking back and reflecting on her past, I don't see that Sayuri feels that her life was wasted or demeaning. She seems to express pride in the fact that she received the geisha education and became a cultured woman of the times. The road was hard and sometimes beyond sad, but what life choice is ever perfect and without pitfalls.

Charles, my only thought about Tanaka making Chiyo spit on the floor while in the fish market is repulsive, I cannot see past that.

As to Mamesha's role, the story indicated she was using Chiyo as a pawn against Hatsumoma, one against the other,but on the other hand, she seemed to care for Chiyo.

Itseems geisha have wild parties with these men in the tea houses, andI can't get past the idea that they were "selling their wares" and were vying against one another.

Barbara - How does NOH differ from KABUKI?…" virtuostic leaps and spins are considered vulgar" - made me think of ice dancing, where, I think, anything obviously outside the athletic norm is considered vulgar.

Very nicely said Prissy

The objective of the true geisha is to offer her wares, but never really sell them as she moves between tea houses. If she does sell, is thought to have sold or slips and gives too much away, the price goes down considerably. The top prize is her virginity. Just show a tiny bit of flesh at the neck or forearm-and do it as if it is accidental to make it even more inticing. The white face, showing just a bit of skin around the perimeter, masking any emotions. The dress, education, music and dance skills are all part of an illusion and designed to attract a man of the highest stature and of course, all geisha are looking for the same opportunity. And it is not just beauty or talent-a successful geisha must be a clever conversationalist with the ability to manipulate men into thinking they are the ones that are clever. As their skills improve they keep moving up to better tea houses-better hunting grounds so to speak. The game becomes more intense as more powerful and accomplished men are encountered. They have to "tease a lot of frogs before they get the prince." Ah, but the prince may be just another frog in disguise.

As Prissy points out-in this period of time it is an honor to be top geisha and these girls will fight with whatever they have to get there. As the mature geisha take little sisters to mentor, they in turn solidify their future-thus it is mutually beneficial. I had a hard time remembering how young the mentors still were themselves.

One of the things that grabbed me about this book is how shallow the men are, not to mention foolish, gullible, boorish and crude. Maybe the truly liberated woman of this time is the geisha who survives and turns the table on them

Thanks for the links. Very interesting.

Kabuki goes back to the last part of the 16th century, the Edo Era. Distinction between the warrior class and the commoners was more rigidly observed than at any other time in Japan's history. Kabuki was cultivated mainly by the merchants. They had be come increasingly powerful economically, but had to remain socially inferior as they belonged to the commoner class. To them kabuki was significant as the artistic means to express their emotions under such conditions. Thus, the fundamental themes of kabuki plays are conflicts between humanity and the feudalistic system. Where as the noh theater goes back to the 14th century and wooden face masks are often used.

All female parts are played by male impersonators known as onnagata. The players of the kabuki drama in its primitive stage were principally women, and with the increasing popularity of kabuki, many of the actresses began to attract undue attention from male admirers. The authorities felt that this would lead to a serious demoralization of the public and in 1629 the theatrical appearance of women was officially banned. In the onnagata, the secret of the onnagata's beauty lies in the fact that it is a feminine beauty which has been created not naturally but artificially through the eyes of men objectively looking at the behavior and psychology of the opposite sex.

Another characteristic of kabuki, born at the end of the 16th century, kabuki incorporated parts of all the preceding theater forms of Japan. Among the traditional arts from which kabuki has drawn are the noh drama and the kyogen play, or the comic interlude presented between noh performances. Another area from which kabuki has borrowed is the puppet theater, often referred to as bunraku, the development of which roughly paralleled that of earlier kabuki.

In kabuki, the primary importance has always been the actor rather than any other aspect of the art. During the early 17th century, some of the great writers, including Monzaemon Chikamatsu, often called the "Shakespeare of Japan," left kabuki with its actors' domination and turned to the puppet theater where their creative genius was less unrestricted. As a result, puppets overshadowed actors and the puppet theater was more popular than kabuki. To meet this competition, kabuki adopted virtually all the puppet plays, and they represent now more than half of the kabuki plays.

Shosa-goto, or dance-drama, also of bunraku origin. Actors dance to the full accompaniment of vocal and instrumental music. Many of them have their origin in the noh drama and the kyogen plays.

Historical drama (jidai-mono) depict historical facts or present dramatized accounts of warriors or nobles. Many of them are heavy tragedies relieved only by momentary flashes of comedy. Many of the texts come from the puppet plays and they often call upon the hero to make the greatest possible sacrifices.

Domestic drama (sewa-mono) depict the life of the plebeian class. The center of attention is focused upon the commoner.

kabuki plays can be classified into the following three groups.

I) Plays adapted from noh and kyogen dramas:

Comic dance-plays, dance-plays of a more serious nature characterized by grace and dignity, are reflective of the noble atmosphere of their origins. The stage setting for these plays was adapted directly from the noh theater. It consists of only a panel background showing an aged pine tree and two side wings with pictures of bamboo groves.

2) Plays adapted from the puppet theater:

They are still performed in a style particular to the puppet theater. A singer and his accompanist sit at the right of the stage on a dais in full view of the audience, as in the puppet theater. But the lines are spoken by the actors, with narratives and descriptive passages left to the singer. In the puppet theater, the entire text is recited and sung by the singer.

3) Plays intended for kabuki: written and produced exclusively for the kabuki theater.

Acting--the most important aspect of kabuki, the most trivial gestures are closer to "dancing" than to "acting." Almost every gesticulation is accompanied by music. Formalization is characteristic of the vocal aspect of kabuki acting. Speaking is not natural but of idealized elocution.

Sets, costumes and make-up in kabuki are recognized as the most lavish and extravagant in the world.

Music is an integral part of kabuki, the principal instrument is a shamisen. The musicians are hidden in the left corner of the stage. In a dance-drama, the musicians are in full view of the audience, and the music becomes more dominant. There are numerous audio-effects employed in a performance. The most unique is the sounding of woodenclappers signaling the opening and the closing of a kabuki play.

Kabuki theaters in Japan are built with a hanamichi or flower-walk ramp and the mawari-butai or revolving stage, first invented in Japan nearly 300 years ago, later introduced abroad. Hanamichi, is a passageway connecting the left side of the stage with the back of the hall through the spectators' seats at about head level of the audience. While making their entrance or exit via this ramp, the actors very often give one of the most important scenes of their performance.

In a performance, following the opening of the curtain, several figures, clad and hooded all in black, take their places immediately behind the actors. Known as kurogo (man in black), they handle properties on the stage while the curtain is open and serve also as prompters.

Since the dramatic art of kabuki is based on representation, every actor is required to have preparatory training starting from childhood. There was a time when it was customary for an actor to play only the role in which he excelled. This stimulated an exclusive study of various types of men and women. Much of the dramatic technique is not what the contemporary actors have acquired by themselves, but is the accumulated efforts contributed by their ancestors, and handed down to them through family inheritance. Therefore, there are today families of kabuki actors going back seventeen generations.

Under the feudalistic social system of the Edo period the veneration of family lineage was an unwritten law. This system, rigidly observed today has made possible the preservation of the kabuki art.

Oh wow! A whole page of Noh masks from a Noh mask artist Noh mask workshop when you hit the link [photo] there are other masks with discription of the play in which they are used.

And I cannot believe this!! - An entire site with all the plays, a diagram of a No theater etc. etc. etc. No theater

Yep - I found it! Isn't this thing called the internet just wonderful! A great Kabuki site Kabuki

Sealpup says:

One of the things that grabbed me about this book is how shallow the men are, not to mention. Maybe the truly liberated woman of this time is the geisha who survives and turns the table on them

Yes, that's it. And that is one of the reasons the novel shouldn't be turned into a love story as it was (I know Charles doesn't agree with this) because it doesn't involve love.

The institution of prostitution (and whatever face we wish to put on it here that is essentially what is involved here even if what is being sold isn't always physical sex- as another poster points out)

The difference between the "common" prostitue and the geisha is not a difference in essence but a difference in price and style.

One of the advantages for the common prostitute is that she can get it over with, collect her money and have some time to find her own hidden integrity and nourish it as best she can. The giesha can't. She is on stage all the time.

And the ones who are damaged by this are not just the women (or men in the case of male prostitues) but the Johns- let's call them what they are. The men in the story are as much victims of the system as the geisha.

They become pampered, foolish, gullible, boorish and crude

And we have a natural tendency in that direction to begin with and don't need all that much help to get there- the faked orgasms, the pretended rapt attention to our boring stories, and so forth. Hey, we had a geisha in Man in Full- the trophy wife.

The novel does deal with this slightly in the character of Nobu-san who has moments of clarity when he sees through the illusions but he never does really become a whole man although he has more potential than any of the other male characters including that wimpy chairman.

He is scarred in more ways than his physical appearance.

Well, WOW!

I can't believe this! So last night I took careful notes on what everybody said, such good points, came in here, 12 new posts, all electric, all saying great stuff, Charlie, you sure have got a good one here!!

So I give up, 22 new posts!! Can't reflect them all, great stuff!

MASKS!! Yes, now why do they remind me of Greek Theater?

What's that box on the back of the kimono, then? I thought that was the obi? Obviously wrong!

OK, I've only read up thru Chapter 8, so some of what you all are talking about is beyond me, but I'm keeping your thoughts for future reference. I'm not seeing any depth yet in anybody except maybe the child.

Right now I'm caught up in the spell, even ate Japanese food last night, I do enjoy being caught in a book.

So tell me this: if Geisha are prostitute, then I don't understand our Hatsumomo having a man to tie up her fabulous kimono for her, as she obviously returns with it intact, no matter what she ends up doing with the grocer in the back room (note that Mother didn't like that much). So if she IS a prostitute, who reties the thing before she comes home?

I loved the skin thing, Sarah, the contrast with the peasant.

Wasn't that fascinating about the lips? Would look like a tuna if not painted so they paint a bow on the bottom lip. Boy do I wish I had some of my Japanese and Chinese dolls now that I had when I was a child, boy I bet they would be worth a fortune.

What riches!!

Giovanna!! Well done, you made it!! I agree, am totally immersed so far.

I, too, am very surprised that Golden would include errors with his background and await breathlessly their revelation, what fun? It must be great to actually KNOW that much about a subject, tho I'm sure it ruins the effect for somebody who does. Hollywood is always making awful mistakes with their historical films, and if you have to shout no no every time the chariot rolls into view, it might spoil it, sure enough.

Fortunately, that time for me has passed, now I just gape with everybody else at whatever's on the screen. I'd love to see a film of geishas, I did see about two years ago one on wrapping the kimono, the thing is so meaningful and exquisite it's a wonder they can get thru one wrapping. Those of you on the West Coast are lucky to have the Japanese Channels where these things are explained. I'll go see if the satellite offers me any!

Barbara: this was a great quote: A"nd yet aren't we becoming like the Geisha when we prepare ourselves for romantic love never mind preparing ourselves for selling our abilities for either a promotion or to be hired on by the company of our dreams (our romantic conclusion of its worth).Hmm are we really all Geisha's about something? "

Fabulous ideas.

What is Hatsumomo selling? I don't think it's her body unless ol Bakku comes around with her and unwraps that thing? OR??

Ginny

Jim-you and I are definately on the same wavelength here. The book is written in a historical-romance novel genre. It alludes to an aura of romance because Sayuri (Chiyo) is always hoping for that which seems unattainable. I do not see it as a love story but simply a "memoir" of a lifestyle and culture as foreign to us as an alien nation right out of Star Trek. We can make comparisons to many other cultures over time—and even now—but I don't think there is anything quite so fascinating, sad and distressing as life in early Japan (and perhaps China with it's emperors and concubines) at least to my Western brain. The men are no better off than the women in their "forced" roles. No one can be real. Perhaps times were so difficult that the theatre became real life. Maybe only the peasants could find a sense of reality and therefore-even though their life was harsh, were probably the true underlying culture. Does anyone else see a similarity to the men in corporate America-politics here?

We seem to keep focusing in on the word "prostitute" because there is only one meaning for a woman who practices it here it America. Maybe that is because no one here would think of calling some of the trophy wives of our most powerful men "prostitutes." Would anyone deny that young American women today aspire to capture the richest and most powerful men who are in turn, easily caught? What has love got to do with it? Now these men may not be such hopeless dolts as those in this novel but they certainly are gullible if they think that dolly 20+ years their junior is "just in love." I'm not man-bashing here guys-just bringing up a point.

Barbara-thanks for filling in so much information. As I re-listen to my tapes, I understand more now than ever due to your information and links.

In regard to women selling themselves to the highest bidder, it wasn’t too long ago that parents of American heiresses were trying to marry off their daughters to penniless “royals” for their titles and if you remember "Titanic" the young girl was being forced into a loveless marriage to a wealthy man.

In case anyone thinks things have changed that much in this liberated day and age, I recently read of a study done in which men were given pictures of beautiful women and homely women in various outfits ranging from very well dressed to uniforms suggesting “menial” jobs. For the men, it made no difference what kind of outfit the ladies had on, they went straight for the beauties. On the other hand, women, given the same choices, handsome men or homely men in clothes that suggested affluence or uniforms suggesting “low end” jobs, they chose the well dressed homely man over the “low end” handsome men. Interesting.

Eileen Megan

Thanks you all for all your comments. They have really helped me remember the whole story and suggested things I hadn't thought of.. I have a book group meeting coming up next week, so will add anything new if it should come up. I doubt anyone will have any new ideas after all I've read here.

Barbara, I can't get over your knowledge of everything!!

Sealpup....I have a son in Portland..they're soggy too.

I am amazed, like some others of you, the knowledge some of you have about Japanese art. For Chiyo to leave her tipsy house, her parents, and not to know where she was going,and thinking back on my childhood, I cannot believe I would have remained silent. Do you suppose all children of that era were so permissive and did just as they were told, even to the point of not objecting when Mrs.Fidgete was doing her "progging" around the two young girls' bodies?

Sealpup - Portland with the fab Powell Book Store! My youngest lived in Portland for over two years and of course I flew in (the continuous remodling of the airport, ugh) 4 or 5 times a year. Never left the airport without a sack full of books from Powell's. Frankly, that was the hardest transfer for them - with three very active boys (Chris only 14 months older then the Twins Cooper and Cody) in a climate where it rains and rains and rains as compared to our Texas climate (they are back in Collage Station) where we sometimes do a rain dance to encourage a cloud was more change than Sally could enjoy. They do have such memories of walking to school thru a forest of trees and we all cut the christmas tree in a mountain tree farm. Glorious!

Kitsan, thanks for the compliment but, you must realize I have small snatches of knowledge and this enourmous curiosity that propells me to always buy another 3 or 4 tomes for every book we seem to study as well as, this drive to research on the net. Then, I really enjoy sharing what I learn. I guess I just assume everyone is as excited as I am to learn about this stuff.

Jim I can hear your embarrassment from here as you have to read about these grown men being escorted to the bathroom! I do remember reading someplace years ago that when Japanese men relax they do so by slipping back into childhood and that was the pull for the karioke (spell) bars where early in their creation the men often sang childhood songs.

Charles....Can you please tell me where chapters 18-28 fit in. They are not listed. Did you mean Chapters 18 until the end?

Jim.....I liked that comparison between "Trophy Wife" and Geisha. I see it even here in our small town.

Prissy....It is difficult for me not to think of this happening in the present, and trying to relate it to myself, but you are correct. It does have to be put in it's correct time and culture.

Thank you for all the very interesting posts, plus the links.

Speak to you soon.....Love, Fran

Thanks, Fran. I made the correction (I've looked at it 100 times!!!)

I'm embarassed to admit that I'm having a hard time getting into this book. Don't know what it is.

It's interesting, and yet so much of it is a straightforward description of geisha custom that I have trouble relating to the characters.

Charles you and one other noted the somewhat clinical aspect of the writing - I agree.

Another of you mentioned that Pumpkin was simply a plot device who wavered in her point of view to fit the author's needs - I too feel this.

Why am I not able to enjoy this book??? I had the same problem with Cold Mountain, which virtually everyone I know seems to have loved.

Dear Sarah,

At the beginning I had the same problem you did with this book, but one of my best friends really encouraged me to stick with it, and now, with the discussion here I am a lot more interested.

But......as for "Cold Mountain"......I think I read about 100 pages, and decided I was wasting my time. Just a matter of taste. I don't think it's a question of right, wrong, smart, dumb, or that you should even question why this particular book or any book doesn't appeal to you. It doesn't, and you don't have to apologize to anybody about that.

Speak to you soon.....Love, Fran

Barbara's post #97 on Kabuki was very interesting, particularly the part about onnagata. The feminine beauty created artificially by males through their interpretation of the behavior and psychology of the opposite sex….What is it about highly stylized interpretations of beauty (rather by males (onnagata) or females (geisha)) that seems to appeal to the Japanese. I guess a society that places a high value on order needs to very carefully delineate the roles of all its members. I note also that the Puppet Theater became more popular than the kabuki plays with actors. There is a real fear today that it is now technically possible to eliminate actors altogether in modern cinema, through the use of special effects and digitizing. Barbara mentioned kabuki instruments, especially the wooden clappers. Wooden clappers are used extensively in Japanese film - especially in the early films of Kurosawa. Rashomon I remember as essentially a kabuki play on film and if I recall correctly, the wooden clapper signaled each change in viewpoint in this famous movie.

Good point about the Titanic "royals". Eileen

Sarah - For me this was a novel that I had to suspend certain of my beliefs. You really have to let the novel take you there. I really don't read much like that, but sometimes I'm ripe for it. It's been awhile since I cared about the main characters of what I was reading. Poisonwood? I cared about the ideas and politics - but in a way they got in the way of me caring about the characters. Man in Full? Nope. And so on. SO I was ready for something like this, I guess. Go ahead, beam me up Scotty!

Now as for Pumpkin - rather pitiful and first and later, hateful, turned into her mentor but, to me not an inconsistent character. She believed her Uncle when he told her she was a "stupid" girl. So her sent her to a place where people would "tell her what to do." Harsh, perhaps, but probably an accurate assessment. She knows the okiya is the best, and only, chance for her to make any kind of life for herself. "I'll work as hard as I have to so they don't send me away." Heck, she'll even lick the cobblestones if she has to.

Barbara-Powells hasn't changed but Portland is getting much larger. Still one of my favorite cities. Lots of bookstores and coffee houses. I'm a Pac NW native so love the rain and green, much like Ireland. We do have very nice summers though. If you can imagine, it gets too hot in Portland for me. I'm on the ocean-3 hours away. I would wilt and dry up in Texas and my moss would quit growing.

Back to Memoirs.....

Eileen-thanks for the Golden interview link. Most interesting.

SarahT&Fran-I had a really difficult time with Cold Mountain like both of you. I got through it but it was a chore. I only liked the two women characters-especially Ruby. I don't know why I was so captured by Memoirs-just fascinated. It may be because I actually prefer non-fiction, biographical/historical books and true crime. Seems to be a little bit of all of that in Memoirs! I am trying to keep up with all of you by wearing my portable cassette player while working around the house.

RE: Pumpkin. One of those characters who weaves in and out of the storyline. Those of us that have read the entire story have an unfair advantage as we know how Pumpkin fares.

Everyone-the comments are terrific. Thanks to all of you for your input.

This is a wonderful site about the HISTORY of Kimono as well as pages of colorful pictures showing how various parts of the kimono are worn. This clickable opens to A Woman's Kimono - OBI Ginny, you did want more clearification how the obi is worn - well here is a whole page of various folds. Much to download here, some of you may need to be patient.

AN UNLINED COTTON KIMONO FOR LOUNGEWEAR OR SLEEPWEAR

A FORMAL KIMONO WITH DESIGNS ALONG THE BOTTOM OF THE SKIRT WORN BY MARRIED WOMEN ON CEREMONIAL OCCASIONS

Barbara, thos are fascinating, and the ROSE OBI is unbelieveable!! So they took the ends and tied it into a giant rose. Also wear no underwear.

I did see the word "bustle" in one of the descriptions, too, I think that pack must be something, too, on the back, a name. But that ROSE!

And do you notice they all are turned away from the camera? I'm also not noticing this low dip in the clothing at the back of the neck.

Heck, our Hatsumomo is cranky: no wonder: she has to sleep with her head in a wooden vise thing to keep that hair still. Would make anybody cranky. Yet she is disgusted that she got somebody else's hair pins and doesn't want to touch them: no telling how long it's been since SHE washed her hair??!!??

Interesting, now, I thought the Japanese were fanatics for cleanliness and if you can take 1/2 hour to wrap on a sash, looks like you could take a few minutes to wash hair, but this may be culture shock. Why is hair exempt from all these preparations?

Rachel

Charlie, those ever changing illustrations in the heading and the quotes are a moveable feast! Thanks so much!!

Ginny

The kimomo pictures are beautiful. I thought it interesting the comments on the see-through yukata and one with the slit "to show your beautiful legs." I remember in the book when the wearing of the kimono is described that the geisha only show a bit of the neck and top of shoulder because Japanese men are enticed more by that area of the woman's body, unlike American men who prefer the legs.

Perhaps that is what is so fascinating about Memoirs-it gives us a glimpse of a time when Japanese cultures and customs were unique as were many other cultures around the world. The world is so much more homogenized now with the "western" influence in dress. I imagine some of the true geisha must be horrified when they see the young generation baring legs, mid-drifts and not leaving anything to the imagination.

Ginny-the hair seems to be just part of the costume rather than part of the woman. Since no respectable geisha would ever dream of letting a man touch her hair I guess it doesn't matter whether it is clean or not.

We need to touch on how the aftermath of WWII seemed to change their culture when we get into the next section. It's interesting how little bearing it seemed to have, how little mention these things warranted in this novel.

Have men changed that much or is it just the culture? I cannot imagine a group of educated men sitting around while this mindless creature Hatsumomo tells that, both unkind and untrue, story about Suryio being splayed across the windshield, laughing all the time. I know that men are different than women. I know that this is a different culture, and I can understand men wanting attention, but this story was inane and insulting. Not just to the young woman, but to the men. Or am I not the liberal thinker I thought I was?

I am also remembering the story of the "Split Peach Hairdo". Is that what it is called? The one with the red cloth in the divide in the hair. This is beginning to sound a little pornographic to me.

I suppose I am getting older and more conservative.

I was able to reserve all three books mentioned as the July selections today at the library. And I did it on my trusty computer.

Speak to you soon.....Love, Fran

I hadn't given any thought to the gender of the author I suppose because I don't feel that had any importance to the story. When I started to read the book I only read a few chapters and then put it aside. I found it depressing to read about the suffering of young children. After a while I picked it up and continued reading, found it very interesting in that I had put the time and place in the proper prospective and therefore found it a great read. Considering the alternative of a young poor girl in the early part of the century I find no disgrace in the life they lead. In our country this would have been considered cruelty, enslavement, abuse, etc., put this was Japan and their culture is so different from ours it is not our place to judge just try to gleam understanding from a marvelously written tale. Darlene French

Just got back from seeing the movie King of Masks by Chinese Director Wu Tianming. Recommended and many parallels to Memoirs of a Geisha. Historical parallels include the selling of children, the bleak economic conditions of the 1930's, Art (here Chinese Opera and the ancient art of Face-Changing) and women's role in it. Thematic parallels include the bitter loneliness of the sold child and the illusion of masks. This rapid face changing is fascinating - I'd never heard of it before. Although not the main theme, one of the characters is a renowned Opera Actor who specializes in women's roles. The irony is that [he] is really a woman, although this is left ambiguous. See it if you get a chance.

I just located a place on the internet to buy NEW books, as in not used. http://www.buy.com

Very big discounts here and through June 30th they are giving a $10 gift certificate redeemable with your first purchase. I purchased THE HOURS for $10 and change.

I'd love to see that new movie, and one of the notes I scrubbed was on Barb's site with all those masks! Kinda reminds you of Greek theater, doesn't it?

This seems a pretty closed society, to me? I mean they actually get themselves all worked up over illusion. And so really it's the imagination which is running wild, because as we have seen, beauty is not necessarily the main focus of Geisha, tho I must say the buck toothed one who had them all in thrall remains a mystery.

So here you have a society with so many traditions and prohibitions even about wrapping a piece of cloth around somebody: you might say an exquisite overload of senses. But why? How did this develop I wonder and how does it fit in with the sale of children? I mean, to me, harmony in every second does not seem to extend to other things as well.

Sealpup: But remember Hatsumomo herself was disgusted with the hairpins and didn't want to touch them: saying there was no telling when the other Geisha had washed her hair?

I guess it's hard for me to deal with the inconsistencies in the idealism on the one hand and the reality on the other. It would seem that our Hatsumomo "owes her soul to the company store," as Tennessee Ernie Ford used to say. I can see how deep in debt little Chiyko is already. I can't see why Hatsumomo would be bound by Mother's restrictions if she herself didn't owe?

AGGG Charlie, Chapter 27?? I better get cracking!!

Ginny

What's the woman in the heading today doing? Showing her slip?

Ginny

That's just an illusion, Ginny!

Prissy-thanks for the reminder on buy.com.

Fran-I believe that even though Golden may be exaggerating the characters, the essence of them is true. The Japanese of the l930's, already victims of their own supersitions immerse themselves in the theatre, tea houses, and their own imaginations all to escape the reality of the depression. We must remember though that this is the world of the geisha. Most Japanese people did not enter this world at all. There are wives of these boorish men and also children. The men are powerful, have money and can indulge themselves in fantasy for that is what it is. It's a culture within a culture. The geisha, who is brought into this realm as a child with potential hasn't much choice. She can either view this as a career and try to rise to the top, become a servant or "prostitute" or run away as Satsu did. Maybe she'll have a better life and maybe not. They believe they are victims of fate. Remember Mameha consulting the Almanac.

Charles-yes Chiyo does have alternatives. She is a clever girl with spunk and can see that Mameha is the key to her overcoming her desperate situation. She could chose to give up and remain forever a servant but she keeps trying. Her turning point is when she meets the Chairman and elects to toss the extra coins to the Gods. It was enough money for her to run away but she doesn't. She is intrigued by the world of the Geisha. She is noticing the attention of men even though she is only 12. Fate has placed her where she is but she can choose to excel there or just tolerate a mediocre existance.

Two things that I found interesting -

(1)There is very little mention of the families of those men who frequent 'tea houses'. One wonders, for instance, how Iwamura Ken related to his family.

(2)There is some mention in the book of daughters of very successful, wealthy families, becoming Geisha. This was the only way for a female to become an "artist", to achieve some sort of power and perhaps even influence in that society. So it was not only a route of escape - it was a route of fulfillment. This is certainly difficuly for a Western audience to understand. We want to rebel at the very idea that this kind of life is anything other than forced slavery.

Charles, I think where the 'forced slavery' comes in for us is not so much that our bodies could become a business - certainly few of us posting here have experienced the entertainment industry or modeling industry but, I think what feels distaste at the selling of sexuality. I'm wondering if this is just our western sensabilities and moral value system imposing a sense of slavery, after all they say on the world wide scene we are very nieve in our sexuality, or is it really an issue of slavery although, chosen but, for reasons that are fundamental to a time and culture with few or any options opened to woman.

Yes, every move and mistake seems to have a financial value placed on it, but then, many jobs today impose that responsibility. The other issue is that we are so used to children being protected from 'needing to work' that we forget in the greater picture most of the world's nations still depend on child labor. Difference here is the child studying to be a Geisha has the opportunity at creating a business that supports a whole retinue of dependents.

Should our distaste at the selling of sexuality in a Japanese socio-economic order,where that might be the only viable option for a whole class of society, be more or less than the distaste we might have for a system that uses it as a marketing tool?

e. g. The First Auction Banner at the top of this page......

After the death of her parents, Chiyo realizes that her former life is really at an end, but it's not until the dream she has in Chapter 9 that she understands that the hopes she had of somehow recovering her past life are dangerous, and consuming. I love the dream image she has. Its very kabuki, wood-clapper included…"and then all at once he slid open the paper screen over a window beside him with a loud clack." The dream has opened a window into the world of her future. She is on the other side. A moth she remembers is recovered unchanged, and crumbles to dust in her hands. Death is unchangeable. Life is flux, as "unstable as a stream." She will no longer be consumed by her past life and will be on the alert for a sign regarding her future, which comes quickly: "Chiyo, come here!" This next section deals with her decision to become a Geisha, her mentoring by Mamaha, and her final triumph over her nemesis, Hatsumomo.

I'm not sure I even want this answered in a public forum but, I sure want to ask the question. What is the deal with guys wanting to be the first to have sex with a virgin??!! Not only is virginity sold to the highest bidder in this story but, story after story seems to bring this scenario to the forefront. OK, maybe a Geisha is tought but, I would think a virgin would have little knowledge that would make this a satisfying experience.

Glad to find this discussion. I just finished the book a few weeks ago. Some random thoughts on the book and/or some of the foregoing comments--

The author's use of narrator style worked for me, yet as I read, I kept leaning into the words, wanting something more. Using a lot of your discussion here to spur my thinking, I felt the male author's words were technically on target but without an emotional depth that perhaps?? could have come from a woman. I don't know.

As far as the reminder to consider the cultural era in this discussion, I find myself thinking of the current culture's popularity of such movies as An Officer and a Gentleman and, more particularly, the movie Pretty Woman. An underlying theme of both was the rescuing of a woman by a powerful man. In the case of Pretty Woman (with thoughts of Pygmalian and My Fair Lady), the woman is taught, prepared, transformed physically to please the male. When the illusion (there's that word again) is complete, she is rendered acceptable. In some important ways, women today are still rendered acceptable to the culture/men/ourselves when we are pretty enough, thin enough, etc. etc.

Thinking about the requirement for the Japanese girl child's virginity, there is still pressure on women today to, if not be virgins technically, to behave virginally, as children. Voice not too loud (or be labeled strident). Cooperative, happy. (Smile!!) In a word, innocent.

A previous reference to Daddy Warbucks is not too far-fetched..I've seen some criticism of this book that called it Little Orphan Chiyo.

Another back hand at this book was that it is a Kabuki Soap Opera in that the entire household has a single function-to serve the every whim of its sole working geisha,Hatsumomo--best described as the Joan Collins of the tale (pure soap opera) and then we meet the Linda Evans character,the rival geisha,Mameha.

Regarding the selling of children to be prostitutes it wasn't that long ago,that very young girls were apprenticed in the brothels of New Orleans..photos of these girls were taken by Lewis Carroll who allegedly had a fascination with this sort of stuff and there have always been lingering questions about who was his model for Alice Through the Looking Glass.

The Japan of the 1930's was becoming more militaristic and expansionist and their soldier's treatment of conquered women (and men) were truly ruthless,barbaric & racist..Earlier posts have mentioned the "comfort women" and sex slaves,and if you really want to have your eyes opened read Rape of Nanking by Iris Chang or a newly published book called We Band of Angels:The Untold Story of American Nurses Trapped on Bataan by the Japanese written by Eliz.Norman

Readerdoc!! Welcome, welcome!! MARVELOUS tie in with Pretty Woman! Well done. Let's not also forget the British Throne and it's insistence, was it not? on a virgin for the Prince of Wales. I thought that was so? Maybe not.

I, too, like the narration of the book, and I, too, feel something missing. There's an almost impenetrable shield or veil between the author's words and the character.

I do think he's very clever in introducing us to all these new customs, teaching us, as it were, without lecturing.

That's very well done.

Ed: yes, I, too have heard of that book, and I hear it's searing. I don't think we can tar the Japanese as the only ones who have used this brush.

I found Hatsumomo's situation very unusual as explained by Mahema? Nobody wanted to adopt her because they would then lose control over her and so she, therefore, was trapped. I guess she couldn't move on as she owed too much, yet if Chiyo could be free by 20, why wasn't Hatsumomo?

It's almost like a Japanese Cinderella, even got a Pumpkin.

Ginny

Welcome readerdoc. Great points! It seemed after Pretty Woman every other movie was about the "hooker with a heart of gold." The geisha world is really not so different than our own.

I suppose part of the desire for virgins is based in religion, and in having something pure and unsullied. There is more than a little pedophilia tied in with this, especially when the girls are underage.

Ed - great comparison to soap opera/Joan Collins/Linda Evans. Of course now it will be they I see as I read on.

IF I read on. I can't decide whether it's worth it to finish this book. I feel the same coldness several of you describe. I've actually put the book down for now, but will try my darndest to pick it up again!

Yes, describing real feelings there is a vail but, the intrigue of what will happen next and how this or that situation will be handled is better then Benson's scenairo tete-a-tete's with Lucia and Georgie.

Charles, I especially like todays painting and todays quote. Both are just wonderful.

I imagine that Golden, whatever his thoughts about "the virginity" question, used Dr. Crab as the quest for the virgin taken to its logical conclusion. Truly pathological.

Thanks for your comments readerdoc and Ed. Readerdoc - you touched a sore spot with me. Pretty Woman is an extremely popular movie with women and it always drives me crazy. Exactly - the Hooker with the heart of Gold. Every man's fantasy to rescue a beautiful hooker from The Life! Puh-leeze! I just don't GET it! Ed - there was a Louis Malle film about those New Orleans brothels and the young girls - don't remember the name (Pretty Baby?? - am I mixing my movies?). Ed - isn't The Rape of Nanking banned in Japan or something?

Ginny - Somewhere early in this current section Mameha explains why Hatsumomo is rather stuck in limbo. She a money making machine - but she can never gain her independence due to the lack of a sugar daddy (uh, danna). This, as Mameha explains, is because she has angered all of the Tea House proprietors and they are key in acting as go betweens in these cases. The explanation was effective for me.

I thoroughly enjoyed this book-couldn't wait to finish it, and as I read some of your posts I wonder if it was easier for me because of listening to the tapes. Also some of you who are more critical are perhaps more intellectually well-read than I am. I got more than I expected from the book.I did not expect a "Memoir" to be so detailed. I guess it could be compared to a soap opera in that there are "good" and "evil" characters and that we follow them through a long period of time. Maybe that's why I liked it-same reason I liked The Thorn Birds, and Shogun.

We could make the "man rescues and conquers woman" comparison of this story to our American counterparts, i.e, (Pretty Woman, Officer and a Gentlemen) and countless others. But I see more of a comparison here to man conquers woman after she manipulates him to do so (Baby Doll, Lolita.) Though Chiyo is innocent, she is already aware of the way men look at her and describes how her face and body are changing. Hatsumomo immediately recognized the threat Chiyo-then only 10-made to her security in the geisha house. These child-women learn early the most valuable thing they have to offer is their virginity. Sad-but true in the context of those times.

RE: virginity. No matter how "sophisticated" we may think we are, some of the basic instincts still prevail. Don't you think the desire for a virgin is more a control issue than sex itself? After all, in our not-to-distant past, it was a good idea for a man to get his seeds planted first.

Like minds - I found this a couple of nights ago and since my daughter was questioning why we had treated the Japanese so poorly during WW2 as compared to Germans in light of the Holocaust, I copied this site to help her understand that in the late 30s we all saw these live photos in the newsreals and knew of this horror in addition, we learned of the Bataan Death March. At that point we were not really sure we were going to win the war and imagined US Woman and children experiencing these horrors. Where as, we were ignorant of the German death camps till near the end of the war.

An English translation of a classified Chinese document on the Nanjing Massacre -

by: Gao Xingzu, Wu Shimin, Hu Yungong, & Cha Ruizhen

Translation from Chinese into English by: Robert Gray
In 1962, scholars at Nanjing University's Department of History (Japanese history section) wrote the book Japanese Imperialism and the Massacre in Nanjing (riben diguozhuyi zai nanjing de datusha) based on extensive materials they uncovered during a two-year investigation into the Nanjing Massacre. After it was written, the book was labelled a classified document (neibu ziliao) and could not be published openly.

In 1995, a scholar from mainland China who had obtained and carried this document to America abstracted portions of the text and made them available to China News Digest for placement in the CND Nanjing Massacre Archive. In the winter of 1995/96, Robert Gray translated these excerpts from the Chinese document and created this website. Nanjign Massacre

The rape and treatment of woman after raping may give us a clue to the low regard toward enemy woman but, that does not always carry over to the soldiers feeling's about woman in general. And, there is so much beauty in the Japanese culture that we can focus on while reading this book. I believe all aggressively Imperialistic nation show it's dark side, including our own when we remember our history of our treatment of Indians and Blacks.

Goodness, I have enjoyed all of the posting about this book. I find it hard to believe the skills this child has developed in order to cope with her life. I do not believe the children in Japan or anywhere else in the world are really this mature. Seems unreal.

She is caught between Mameha and Hatsumomo and both of them are using her as much as the men.

Southcoast - Little Chiyo, caught between Hatsumomo, determined to ruin her, and Mother/Auntie/Granny on the other hand....what an impossible situation for a NINE YEAR OLD GIRL!!

I keep thinking of Chiyo's attitude and her silence. It seems that whatever she was told to do, she did. She did seem to learn the art of walking/speaking in a manner that make her appealing to the opposite sex. As for the male making so much over being the first to have intercourse with a virgin, though it sounds a bit crude,all my life I have been under the impression that if a man has intercourse with a virgin, he is "proud as a peacock."

By this time, Chiyo has met The Chairman and has become quite smitten with him, keeping his handkerchief for ever and continuing to bring it out to look at and in so doing,consoling herself to some degree..

Charles - was she only 9 when she was stolen away. Well, you're right southcoast, that it seems impossible for someone so young to have viewed her situation in such a mature way.

Of course, she's looking back on her experiences as a much older woman and probably injecting a lot of wisdom and reflection.

Well we have Daddy Warbucks and Alice Through the Looking Glass - how about The Wicked Witch of The West. Well, that's the image I had as Granny lay fried by a space heater (manufactured by Iwamura Electric!!). I could see Chiyo peeking in her room and all she could see was Granny's legs stretched out.

Iwamura Stream
Here is where Chiyo first encountered The Chairman who was to be the object of her desire.
Here is where she met with Mameha and first began to lay the plans for the defeat of her arch-nemesis, Hatsumomo. The Shirakawa Stream, the metaphor for The Way, her salvation, the essence of her true self.

It appears that the Geisha in Kyota is alive and well. This site includes a map of Kyota and if you click on the various areas of the map a frame pops up with a photo and an enlarged street map showing more detail. It is all here; Shijo Ave. bridge; Maruyama Park; Kama River; Pontocho kaburenjo theater; the Gion shrine (its popular name - its formal name is; Yasaka Jinja Shrine established in the year 656 and is located at the end of Shijo Ave where Hiyashiyama Ave. intersects) Couldn't find the Iwamura Stream - maybe you can find it.

Scroll down, hit the Events and Festivals and you will learn among other things that you should take your camara along on January 1 when Maiko (geisha apprentices) pay their New Year courtesy calls in Ponto-cho and Gion Districts; and then again on January 15, the best day to view young woman on 'Coming of Age Day' in all their finary.

When you hit the Hands on Experience button you will see that you too may be dressed as a Geisha or Maiko. The cost ranges from 1,500 to 20,000 yen plus extra to take pictures.Visit Kyoto

Sealpup – I’m sure that by listening to the tapes, it is easier for you to become immersed in the atmosphere of pre-WWII Geisha life in Kyoto. Sometimes, we tend to become focused exclusively on the ‘meaning’ of a novel. Some books are plot driven and are not novels of deep meaning. There may be a backbone of principles here that the novel is layered on, but this is a book to be enjoyed for the “story’ if you will. It should live or die on that. We shouldn’t ask for what a novel is not prepared to give. If we are looking for something that is not being offered, we will be disappointed. (Now that’s sounding positively Zen-like!)

Ok, Charles, I'll be Zen about this book! Great image of the Wicked Witch - burned rather than melted, but dead all the same. Only no one was really freed after her death - the old customs and Chiyo's persecution by Hatsumomo continued.

What a fascinating site, thanks so much, Barbara!! I'd like to see the parade of Geisha, I'm surprised in this day and time they still exist. I wonder if they have the same sort of reverence or whatever they once did or if it's just sort of a relic from the past. Hard to imagine the young technologically oriented Japanese man interested in such a thing.

Welcome, Amazing Lady, and also, Josie, is that you??

Plot wise it seems we have this struggle of titans: the warring geishas, and would we say that the end of Chapter 27 or the events in Chapter 27 are the climax of the story?

I'm confused on the point about Sayuri's part in the Dances of the Old Capital and the fall down the stairs of the apprentice with the solo role. ( page 243) I'm not sure how Mameha could have foretold Sayuri's part in the play which was so auspiciously provided by the fall. Thought that was odd.

I also think your post, Charlie, was sort of on the mark: not to expect too much. I'll say one thing for it, it's a good read. It's not hard to read 19 chapters at a clip, not a punishment, as, say Mann was (hoot about that reference to him!) hahahahahahah.

I noticed quite a few author philosophies thrown into the text in the beginning and very few here later, but here is one which kinda jumped out at me:

"We human beings are only a part of something very much larger. When we walk along, we may crush a bettle or simply cause a change in the air so that a fly ends up where it might never have gone otherwise. And if we think of the same exapmle but with ourselves in the role of the insect, and the larger universe in the role we've just played, it's perfectly clear that we're affected every day by forces over which we have no more control than the poor beetle has over our gigantic foot as it descends upon it. What are we to do? We must use whatever methods we can to understand the movement of the universe around us and time our actions so that we are not fighting the currents, but moving with them." (Page 127)

I'm not sure if that's the author or some kind of Japanese philosophy? Does anybody know?

Two things which surprised me in this section:

1. The inanity of the supposedly highly intriguing Geisha conversations at parties, kind of a let down, was it for you? I had expected something fabulous. Of course you don't need much if everyone is stumbling with drink, which does seem to be the case, at least later on in this section.

2. The mention of the Great Depression. I didn't know, ignorant as I am, that Japan suffered a Great Depression.

So I've learned a great deal already, and think Golden did a fabulous job with that as you never feel "preached to" at all, at least I didn't.

Ginny

Yep Ginny, that is in a nutshell the basic thinking of certainly Taoism.

The concept of heaven is not a personal image of God, but to endow the relationship to this God with all the qualities that form a supreme creative power; that man, who is conscious of responsiblity is on a par with the cosmic forces of heaven and earth.

Every action and thought is like a seed that attains development in change. Change is the opposite of danger. Danger is the unknown, the mysterious, from which misfortune can arise just as easily as good fortune. Safty is the clear knowledge of the right stand to be taken, security in the asurance that events are unrolling in the best direction for your greater realese of power, your opportunity to change and have a deeper understanding of the infinite. We must cultivate fearlessness that prepares us to face everything we encounter, and to come to terms with whatever the future might bring.

'Water' as it flows from its source, as a stream, river and to the ocean of infinite wisdom back again to it's source through snow and rain. Therefore, judgment, if something is good ar bad or matches an individual's idea of misfortune, is suspended.

Wood grows to give shelter to many, endures by remaining supple rather then brittle in thought, is felled and becomes fuel for fire that leaves the ash, that builds earth, til earth is a mountain.

A mountain 'Keeps Still', is where life congregates, vapors rise from earth condensed there, from the hood of the fog rains dash down to make earth fruitful. The mountain endurs for a longer time than the life gathered about it, providing shelter and security.

As Goethe says, "We are not immortal to the same degree." as far as giving eternal meaning to life and at the same time we are so small that life is found in the smallest places. Every man has great sides and small sides. If we identify ourselves with our best powers and begin from this point to shape and to tame, then there is progress. The 'I Ching' or Sayuri"s almanac is to point out the method that will lead to this end, much as many read a line from the bible as their direction during a time of danger.

Change is not only that man grows and develops but there is natural and social movement and development. We stand in a stream of development and to recognize it is to be responsible. Development is not a moral law to obey but rather a guideline from which on can read off events.

Remember Taoism permeates all eastern philosophy, religions.

Charles, I agree with your point about not looking for deep meaning in every book we read. I read this mainly with curiosity and a fascination with a totally different culture and mores. I accepted the way Golden portrayed her thinking because I know nothing about “geisha” life or the way Japanese from this era thought. It sort of fell apart for me toward the end but until then I was very much “into” the book. I found “Shogun” equally fascinating for the same reasons and accepted all of the characters and situations as true.

Eileen Megan

Yes, Ginny it is me, Josie

I have to remind myself this is fiction. I no nothing about this culture or the Geisha life.

I agree Sarah, this book is written from looking back on her experiences.

Are men from Japan really like this? This seems to be accepted by their wives.

Ginny....."1. The inanity of the supposedly highly intriguing Geisha conversations at parties, kind of a let down, was it for you? I had expected something fabulous. Of course you don't need much if everyone is stumbling with drink, which does seem to be the case, at least later on in this section." That is exactly how I feel. I think I could fit right in if it had to be inane.

Barbara.....I am saving that wonderful site to Kyoto to visit sometime when I have loads of time to explore. Thank you so much for posting it.

This has been a great discussion.

Love, Fran

Josie--we read Geisha for our little book club in Shepherdstown and one of the young women there said it was too much like the Japanese men she knew. Evidently her husband worked for a Japanese pharmeceutical company and they would go to the social events. She said the men would ignore their wives completely and the women would not converse with any of the American wives....they would just put their hand to their face and giggle. As far as she was concerned, the Japanese men are still a lot like they were in the book...not likeable at all.

Theresa

An earlier post mentioned that the Japanese gov't did not allow the sale of birth control pills for women,but approved the sale of Viagra very quickly.

The Japanese gov't now has approved the legal sale of birth control pills for women,so maybe the political clout of Japanese women is getting better.

Many years ago,my wife & I had a Japanese pen pal (female),this would have had to have been around the time of the World's Fair that was held in Flushing Meadow ,NY...in the 1950's..because I remember we signed up for a pen pal at the Parker Pen exhibit....Our pen pal had spent some time in the US working as a maid for an American family(in order to earn money for her dowry) and had returned to Japan to get married to her betrothed via an arranged marriage and one of the arrangements was that her husband's mother had to live with them & be cared for by his wife.

We corresponded for several years and our pen pal had a child & she openly discussed with my wife how unhappy she was in her marriage but that she was obligated to HER family to continue the marriage and bear children.....Eventually,we lost contact and I wonder if that kind of situation still exists in Japan.

Speaking of Zen...has anyone ever read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintainence?

Ginny: your reference to Thomas Mann...his Death in Venice was just named as the top book in the 100 best books by a Gay & Lesbian group.

The Ernest Hemingway reference ("who got very drunk and said the beautiful red lips on her white face made him think of blood in the snow") was almost as good as the Thomas Mann("a long, dull story...that went on for nearly an hour.")

Hmmmm Charles are you saying MM was dull and long, some of these posts are dull and long, Memoirs.. is dull and long - what is dull and long?

Oh, no. Not me. Golden makes these references on my page 149, talking about the history of Mameha. One could read these as sly references by Golden regarding his opinion of the "great novel of ideas" (Mann)and the "macho Great American Novels of Hemingway."

Admittedly "ideas" and "macho" probably do not come to mind as a ready description for Geisha...

The phrase 'glandless' has even been used!

Barbara, I haven't seen a dull and long POST here at all. In fact, I treasure every word somebody finds to write about the book.

The nice thing that has always been the Book Club Online is that we don't have to like every book, we don't even have to appreciate every book but we do try to learn from each book, and we can feel free to express ourselves fully.

The "Eddie Marie" principle: what have I learned from this book and has it changed me at all?

Now from your posts alone, I have learned a great deal, and have also learned much from the book, and feel thrown right INTO the culture which is quite nice. I always like to get carried away with whatever book I'm reading, tho I must admit I don't see myself in this one at all. Still it's nice to feel such an....aura, if you will.

So we are free here to "agree to disagree," as, many times, and this one in particular, we learn more from the posts than we did the book.

Ed: really? Well, maybe we should have read that one then. I enjoyed my Mann experience so I can say I finally read it, but I wouldn't reread it for a million dollars. Talk about slog. There's no slog in Geisha, it's an easy read.

But coming off of Poisonwood, you can't help compare complexity.

I continue to be impressed with the author's credentials and hope Jim's friend will cast some light on the actual facts.

Fran: YOU aren't inane!! Did you think the chat was all you'd been told it was?? Kinda reminds me for some reason of the Duchess of Windsor's reputed repartee.

Ginny

And talking about Masks and Sauri's makeup destroying Chiyo (see heading) I'm always struck by the masks we ourselves wear, especially on the Internet?

Ed: any chance of picking back up the aquaintance??

Megan: Kinda fell apart for me, too. Were you disappointed in it, and why??

Ginny

Ginny, my "take" on the last few chapters will have to wait until the end of the discussion, I don't know if everyone has read the whole book yet! I can say that it reminded me of the ending of the "A Man In Full".

Megan

'Run don't walk' to your nearest B&N or Boarder take "Polite Lies" by Kyoko Mori off the shelf and sit back in one of their cushie chairs with your cup of coffee. It is a quick read, small book, larger print, more space between sentences -

Finally got into my copy last night and it's all there - How a wife feels and her place in the home with men that have additional lovers. As well as, the chapter on symbols explaining that, every conversation as well as, every poem etc. is riddles with symbolic words. She includes a few of the symbolic words in her tome.

Quote from back of paperback book; "Mori explores the different codes of silence, deference, and expression that govern Japanese and American woman's lives..."

I'll share some of the read tomorrow - I'm off to Collage Station to see 2 of my grands (Cooper & Cody, twins aged 9) play their last Little League game for the 'final champs'.

Context. Context. Thank goodness each of us comes to a book with varying purposes. Charles, for the most part I agree that this is a plot driven fast read with obvious thought and care to historical accuracy. I like it that so many readers are pulled into the pure story. I am ever mindful, however, that books engender a whole range of responses simply because as readers, we bring a range of personal experiences and reasons for reading a given book, or for reading, period. In my own life, I am even aware of shifting contexts--changes in what I want from reading. Also, I can enjoy a story, as I did this one, while I'm in the middle of it, then afterwards let the context of my life and unique needs be the framework for any judgment.

From my perspective, I am always interested in cross-cultural histories of women's restricted lives and the wretchedness of choices to just survive, literally to stay alive. After finishing the book, for instance, I began thinking of how restricting women's clothes have been--until the '20's and '30's here in the US but really continuing (resurfacing?) through the era of the girdle. The freedom of movement we enjoy now in our clothes is such a recent freedom!!! In college in the 60's, I was not allowed to wear pants to class even though the winters were quite cold. All my college memories are tinged with the misery of walking back and forth to class with freezing legs. It's probable that that clothing restriction was a true restriction, that I said no to things I might have participated in if I had been able to be comfortably warm. Think a while on the tragic implications of the binding of the whole female body into the kimono, so intricately woven in sashes and knots that another person was needed to untie, unbind, free the body. Yes, I'm always drawn to beautiful fabric and loved reading of the intricate kimono designs, but my own concerns for the freedom of women's bodies was only a thought away.

Okay so now I've finished the book and stand by my original premise that it read like a fairy tale from Grimm or Anderson ( yes Ginny Cinderella was what I had in mind). I did find out about what a geisha was (or is). I really need some clarification on this matter. Does a geisha only have sex with her danna while she merely continues to entertain other men? Enlighten me please...this is what I think I read (I am not counting her private arrangements made on personal level)

Of all the characters in the book I found Nobu to be the most interesting,was developed some what more than the others. Perhaps our Sayuri was correct when she said something to the effect that she wasn't as nice a person as Nobu made her out to be.

See the link above (Tsuya-Giku)for the story of a famous Geisha that has eerie similarities to the story of Sayuri.

Here is a book written by a young Japanese-American writer, Mako Yoshikawa, called ONE HUNDRED AND ONE WAYS . Please go HERE and listen to her answer about her thoughts on Geisha. I think she speaks to many of us in her answer. Fascinating.

From The Publisher: If Kiki Takchashi's life is dramatically different from the one lived by her reserved Japanese-American mother, it is light-years away from that of her grandmother, whom she knows only through old family stories. Kiki has recently become engaged to Eric, a handsome, successful lawyer in New York City. But at the same time she is haunted - quite literally - by the memory of her friend Phillip, killed the previous year in a mountaineering accident. As Kiki herself is well aware, her incessant mourning for Phillip - her love of a ghost - is endangering her chance at real-life happiness with Eric. Yet her relationship with Eric is also complicated by her fear that he is attracted to her only because of his erotic fascination with Asian women. Kiki has never so much as met her grandmother, the woman for whom she is named. Still, thoroughly American though she is, she feels a secret kinship with the nearly legendary Yukiko, whose impoverished family sold her as a young girl to a geisha house. For years, Kiki has collected questions to ask her grandmother - queries on subjects ranging from love, loss, and family to the myth of exoticism which hangs over Asian-American women and geishas alike. In the wake of Phillip's return as a ghost, Kiki awaits Yukiko's imminent visit to America with a renewed eagerness, trusting that this unknown woman will provide answers to the mysteries of her past and guide her on her way into the future.

I haven't read all the posts but find your recent comments fascinating.

Did you consider the possibilities of Sayuri's life had she not become a geisha? Don't you feel that she would have surfaced under most circumstances? Had she remained a maid though, perhaps that would have been the most difficult career of all.

Her sister on the other hand persevered and found the life with the person she wanted. At first I thought she might have been retarded but she got out from under the very worst situation.

The bitterness of most of these women took me back until I recalled the fact that they'd mostly come to this profession not by their own choice. I wanted desperately for Pumpkin to soften and become closer to Sayuri.

Good read I say, di

readerdoc - That is so nicely said. Some books are fun to read but forgettable. Some books are s struggle to read but you may never forget them. Your thoughts on the binding aspect of kimono and the difficulty of release led me to remember The Baron and his encounter with Sayuri. What a portrait of manipulation and domination!

Helen. How nice to hear from you. One of the fairy tale aspects that was fascinating was how Chiyo in some ways turned into Mameha - and Pumpkin turned into Hatsumomo. The one clever and the other, well, hateful Dianne - as much compassion as most of us had for Pumpkin - she was bound to turn into Hatsumomo it seems. And good point about, Chiyo. She probably WOULD have survived somehow, resourceful as she was. (Remember the unique ways she found to "get back" at her tormentors in the okiya?). Helen, I think the answer to your question is yes. A true Geisha is the mistress of only one man, or perhaps two in her lifetime. She continues to entertain other men and go to functions, etc. Even her danna is expected to pay her for her time, and in most cases, he pays even MORE than the "going rate" to show his generosity.

It is probably best to give you my background ton understand my comment. Retired Engineer (signal prossing) whose reading consisted of mainly technology and mathmatics, no leasure reading.

I decided to read this book so that I could appreciate the book discussions. Gee the book read so easily and kept my attention at all times.

The discussion's supprised me in that I read the story as told and not once did it occur to me that the book was being written by a man. Ken

See the link above (Tsuya-Giku)for the story of a famous Geisha that has eerie similarities to the story of Sayuri.

Glad to have you with us Ken. Look around. There are ALL KINDS of discussions available. Check out the new one on Prize Winners. Just getting started so you can get in on the ground floor!

Ginny wrote....."Fran: YOU aren't inane!! Did you think the chat was all you'd been told it was?? Kinda reminds me for some reason of the Duchess of Windsor's reputed repartee." My reply....Okay Ginny....I am not inane. I don't know what I thought the chat would be, but I didn't think it would be so meaningless. And what was the Duchess of Windsor's reputed repartee?

I thought that our heroine did have sex with a man other than the doctor and her patron. A young man that she met and fancied almost immediately.

Some books I just read to escape from my plain little world in this small town. This was certainly one of them. An escape from reality.

Was this an either or situation for Sayuri and her sister? Either she would grow up in her tipsy house and be very very poor, or be a geisha? That is what seems to be implied. Perhaps she would have been happy growing up in her little tipsy house.

Great points, all! Welcome, KEN!! What a great statement, you read the book so you could participate, well, good for you!! Just draw up a chair now, you're in good company, we want to hear more!

Fran, I think I got so caught up in the mystique that when the famous Geisha DID open her mouth I expected tremendous wisdom to fall out! hahahahah, of course it did not.

I am ashamed to say that I myself used one of Mameha's techniques yesterday: the false modesty, and even more ashamed to say it worked. I was astounded. So that proves that men will be men? Or women will be women, whichever you espouse. So I guess I'm learning too.

Fran: the Duchess of Windsor was renowned for her witty and somewhat scandalous party repartee. It was reputed that she had studied this craft with Geishas and other women of the night in Thailand and knew all kinds of esoteric things. Certainly she had a ready wit and a somewhat bold approach, if the quotes attributed to her are correct. It was also rumored that "she" was a man. All that, I suppose, in aid of the mysterious hold she held on the Duke until his death. It's said also of Cleopatra by those who actually saw her that she was NOT pretty but the force of her personality and charm overrode everything else. Certainly you'd have to struggle to consider the Duchess of Windsor pretty. Smart, yes, pretty? Of course we know she coined the phrase that a woman could not be too rich or too thin as she was both in extreme.

Di: so glad to see you here, too!! That's a good point, I, too, think Sauyri would have bobbed up to the surface anywhere and I also think Fran has a point about maybe it wouldn't have been so bad to have remained in that tipsy house. Others in the neighborhood did?

Charlie: I love the heading today such great thoughts. That Geisha yesterday wasn't pretty, either, and the illustration made it really come alive. Loved the audio!!

Now we have Mameha's statement, and I've sent my Poisonwood on to the Exchange, but Kingsolver said something very like it when she said (paraphrasing) that it seems like you create something and then you have to work like a dog to keep it going. So just getting though the day becomes a triumph sometimes.

I wonder if Mameha is right? That an old woman should have put aside hope a long time ago? That HOPE as a hair ornament is silly and out of place?

Remember the old song? "When I grow too old to dream, I'll have you to remember.....when I grow too old to dream, I'll still have you in my heart."

When does that happen and why?

I ask, because, as my husband has often remarked, I live in a dream world.

Ginny

Nominations for Sleaze Balls of Fiction:

(1)Dr. Crab
(2)The Baron

I love those nominations for Sleaze Balls of the book. They were pretty bad, I must say.

I read your headings and now I am thinking about what I believe is destiny. I think that to a point we can all control our destiny. Of course there are some things that we cannot control, but as we grow up there are more things than we can control, and it is up to us to make the best life we can with the resources we have.

I think the key to happiness is to be feel fortunate with what you have, and make the very best of it. And if life has handed you a bad hand, then it is up to you to make it better.

Speak to you soon.....Love, Fran

Right, Fran. Sayuri, resists Nobu's philosophy somewhat---'Oh, that's nice for you, for those who have advantages....", while Nobu says that advantages must be grasped, they are everywhere if we open opur eyes and bother to look. It seems a matter of EXERTING control over our elusive destiny and we would seem to have that in our power. Sure, some have it more "in their power" than others, but sometimes, effort and determination can be great levelers.

Charlie

This is the first time I'm posting to this group and I'm a bit nervous. The love at first sight theme played out between Sayuri and the Chairman is a bit mushy. She knows he's kind and apparently good looking and later finds out he's the CEO of a major corporation, but really learns very little about him and his psyche and ways despite all the times together at the tea houses. She knows really nothing about him but decides that he is her reason for living. I agree with the fairy tale (Cinderella) analogy. I won't talk about the ending except to say that I was really disappointed in that I thought it was overly contrived and far too mushy. Yes, I cry at many movies, but I'm not a sop and groaned over this ending. I'm sure the film will be directed so it's a tear jerker.

For a more realistic view of Japanese women confronting marriage, love and the encroaching Western culture, try "Salaryman", sorry but I can't remember the author. I think it would make a better tearjerker than "Geisha" but is far more realistic in it's story line.

'Symbiosis in Economy' written by Kisho Kurokawa, architect. He and his associates have completed buildings as diverse as The Sporting Club at Illinois Center, located in Chicago - Sony Tower, located in Osaka, Japan Kisho Kurokawa Works & Projects which links to his book.

Kisho Kurokawa says;"For Japan, the emperor system, rice, and the sumo rank of yokozuna (grand champion) are sacred zones.

Though the emperor system may be regarded as merely a symbolic rank today, it plays an immeasurable role in stabilizing Japanese society. That is the reason that the US Occupation made positive efforts to preserve the system after the war.

Japanese agriculture is gradually becoming a part-time occupation and the nation is increasingly urbanized, rice production is shrouded in the very roots of Japanese culture in farming villages, festivals, folk songs, sake production, and the other aspects of rice as culture. The forestry industry, now in crisis, is supported by agricultural labor during fall and winter, as are lacquer work and other traditional crafts. This "culture of rice" does not come with rice grown in California, which is a foodstuff pure and simple.

If sumo were simply a sport, no one would disagree that everything in it should be decided on the basis of matches won and lost. But from its inception sumo has been closely linked to the emperor system, and it has a strong traditional and ceremonial aspect. If we ascribe a special significance to the grand champion, who carries out many of those ceremonies, there is nothing wrong with regarding his rank as a sacred zone.

In my opinion, the automobile industry, baseball, and Hollywood are all sacred zones for the United States. American culture as we know it would not exist without the automobile industry, baseball, and Hollywood. All three are deeply rooted in the American lifestyle and are sources of pride for Americans."

The attendance of the Sumo matches therefore, had great importance and helped to tell us, the readers, the importance of Nobu. Everything I am reading about Japanese culture, indicates all conversations are slanted and understood after those communicating establish the level of importance between themselves. One is always of less importance then the other and bows in polite defference.

I do not think we In the US see meeting a female companion at a Baseball game as high on the scale of social quintessence even though, the President or Vice-President throw the first ball of the season. But it seems, Sumo is elevated in status and somehow symbolic of the Emperor.

I know little about Sumo except very large men wearing little, balance back and forth on outstretched legs and were a cornerstone of symbolism during the Japanese Winter Olympics. This site is an introduction to Sumo and it's culture; introduces Ozumo, the history, rules or culture fully to beginners. Please visit here for your guidance of Ozumo bouts or further understanding of Ozumo. Introduction to Sumo Contents: 1. Origin of Sumo 2. Rules of Sumo 3. Sumo Ranking 4. Sumo Ceremonies 5. The gyoji and the judge 6.The shikiri also, the Key terms of Sumo

Stephen!! Welcome, welcome!!

A very impressive debut here, if I may say so! Delighted to see you here.

I thought her relationship to this point anyway, with the Chairman was very like the crushes young girls have on distant persons or even rock stars. In this case, the Chairman had rescued her and she carried his handkerchief for good luck, considered him almost a talisman for her life. Endowed him with attibutes no mortal could ever possess. I'm almost afraid to read the next section.

It can't be other than a let down.

Amazing Lady: how do you see her life as turning out without mother or father there in the tipsy house? I wonder, as I had not looked closely at it before, what options were open to women at that time as a profession?

Fran: I love the quote this morning. It seems that a lot of Japanese sayings are actually instructions for living, have any of you noticed that? That one in the heading this morning about (and by the WAY, Charlie, fabulous job on the ever changing headings)

"If you bump, and tussle, and fight, and make use of whatever advantages you might have--"

"Blunt the sharpness;
Untangle the knots;
Soften the glare;
Let your wheels move only along old ruts."...Lao Tzu

These headings seem to me to be saying life is a tussle, a stream, and you can get battered or you can struggle back. Kingsolver said the same thing in Poisonwood.

The above two quotations seem to me to say the opposite, if I understand them correctly? The first says go with the flow, and watch for and catch the wave, the second says don't make waves but take the path of least resistance? Have I misunderstood them? Have I mixed enough metaphors for one day? hahahahahahaha

Both seem to say you CAN influence your own destiny.

Barbara: Sumo wrestling fascinates me, have never understood the part about the giant weights these guys have to carry. I wonder how many of them die of heart attacks?

Ginny

One of my disappointments in the novel - I didn't really mind so much the corny pot boiler love story and the trashy fixation on losing virginity- was the treatment of WWII which the author kind of skims over, hinting at but never really developing the profound changes it brought about (and is still bringing about) in the lives of Japanese women.

Las summer I read "The Dream of Water," a memoir by Wisconsin writer, Kyoko Mori who teaches creative writing at St. Norbert's college in Green Bay.

She grew up in Japan but did most of her college work in the states. Her memoir deals with a return to Japan to unravel in her own mind the relationships with her family, namely an abusive father and mean-spirited step-mother and to ponder the suicide death of her mother.

It was her mother's story that fascinated me because it dealt with the mother's experience in WWII and details just how intense was the Anti-American propaganda and hatred of Americans in Japan at the time.

I'm sure Golden's sources did not dwell much on this and he would not have gotten an accurate picture from them.

Funny, how everyone has a different "take" on this book. I read it because it was about an exotic world that I had no knowledge of and wasn't disappointed until the ending. Another book written in the approximately same time frame which took place in China, "Moment in Peking" by Lin Yutang is a fascinating read. Although it was about fairly well-to-do families, concubines and all, it also portrayed the student rebellion in the 20's in Tiannamen Square and the Japanese occupation.

Eileen Megan

Jim amazing that you read The Dream of Water by the same author that I posted about earlier Kyoko Mori. When I first started to read Polite Lies I did not start from the beginning but, went directly to the chapters about 'A Woman's Place', 'Symbols' and 'Lies'. Since then, I'm reading the beginning and sure enough, Kyoko brings out the particulars of her background and how this was handled in her family. At first I thought her own family distance and tradgedy was affecting her view of the differences in the eastern and western culture but, I am now finding others that are either outright or using vailed assertions that are agreeing with her. I must pick up a copy now of The Dream of Water

Just learned how to download and where to put RealPlayer on my Mac from Fran Hurrah, and thanks. Finally, I will be able to listen to the site Charles found the other day that sounds like it is also shedding light on the woman's role in Asia.

Ginny for me I do see the above statements in unison - to me Pumpkin is an example of someone floating through life belly-up and both Sayuri and Nobu choose the part of life they will avoid and the part they will put effort into with the result,"The water will divide again and again. If you bump, and tussle, and fight, and make use of whatever advantages you might have--" . It is easier to see how Sayuri, "Blunt the sharpness;" learns from Mameha how to out-think Mother and Hatsumomo. "Untangle the knots; Soften the glare; Let your wheels move only along old ruts."...Lao Tzu". Sayuri, accepts and becomes pragmatic about her situation, choses to become the best Geisha, has a mentor (helps her stay in the old rut or with tradition) and sorts through the many tradional and expected behaviors to achieve her aim - financial wealth to stay on top and The Chairman

From what I've been reading else where, Sayuri would have to speak to Nobu with deference and make herself look inadequate or rather express herself as passively floating through the river of life belly-up as compared to his take charge life.

Hmmm just re-read my post and I realize Sayuri and Nobu are two sides of the same coin. He is struggling through life with physical disfigurement, never sure if he is being given his due where as, Sayuri has been overcoming the pain of being betrayed by Mr.Tanaka as well as, the loss of her mother and the swift and brutal force of being sold to the life of a Geisha. Both are reaching for acceptance with imperfections as compared to the Chairman who seems to be blemish free.

Steven - Chiyo seemed to be desperately looking for a 'man' to save her, it seems. First it was Tanaka and then The Chairman. Desperate almost, for someone to latch onto. Someone to protect and/or save her from the world in which she was inevitably about to be thrust, alone. Each became somewhat of a fixation. Not so surprising for a girl 9-13 years old I'd have to say. Speaking of the film, let me predict once again, it will be, or 'they' will attempt to make it HUGE. I just read that, indeed, John Williams WILL do the score. And a tearjerker - oh, yes. Look for the trailers in the Summer of 2001…."a love affair for the ages"!!! Musical crescendo. The time may be ripe for a second Japanese revival. I think of my favorite all-time painting Monet's "La Japonaise" hanging in Boston and the recent Cassatt exhibit that had quite a bit of Japanese influence. As I say - the time may be ripe for another revival. With Japan having had somewhat of an economic comeuppance the past few years, now that they seemed to have rounded the bend, we may be ready to 'partner up' more readily with them. I have eluded to The Madonna thing before. I read recently that her inspiration was Hatsumomo of all people, her favorite character in the book. At first this surprised me, but then I thought - but of course. Like Madonna, Hatsumomo was an expert at manipulating her image

Amazing Lady - Did the Cherry Blossoms remind you of Washington ?

Barbara - Remember the flap not too long ago about US trying to export Rice to Japan? I guess we can only BEGIN to understand the implications of that! I liked to automobile industry/baseball/Hollywood trinity and that was a great point about "the importance of Nobu" by his attendance and reverence for Sumo. Have you checked out Nobu's hatakikomi in the header, which was the inspiration for Mameha's Master Plan for Sayuri? And the bowing and polite deference - remember Sayuri's first outings with Mameha when she was just being seen around Kyoto?

Ginny - In some ways Nobu represents a Mann (Settembrini like) extreme ("bump and tussle") and Sayuri represents a Hans as she finds The Way "(Let your wheels move only along old ruts"). My take, anyhow. Something Rachel-like here also: elbows out, maybe?

Jim -did you get a chance to listed to Mako Yoshikawa's answer to the question about her reaction to Geisha? Do, if you can. Agreed, that all of postwar Japan is given short shrift. This is the same thing that she is saying also. She says it’s a "good read" and a "fairy tale" and "academically" impressive- all familiar, eh? - but…..she has trouble seeing "the point" and why he would write THIS novel at THIS time. She is troubled that the novel is "uninformed" by any thinking past pre WWI Japan ("1990's consciousness") and that is not only "set" in the past, but somehow STUCK there.

Eileen - I'm thinking that, in many ways this is not an ideal book for group discussion. Is this heresy? It's a good read? I imagine that many, many of you read it liked it, and had fun reading it. I'm just hoping that this discussion doesn't TAINT that experience. It should NOT. This is not as book that stands too much scrutiny, and indeed may bot DESERVE this kind of critical thought as it wasn't WRITTEN to withstand this kind of probing. It's delicate, transitory, ephemeral, pleasant. Well - I'll say it - TASTES GREAT, LESS FILLING!! Like a Geish'a China White after too many visits to too many tea houses, the real skin begins to show through under the mask and it's JUST NOT FAIR!!! The mask should be left intact. The illusion was meant to remain. Do we tear apart Snow White? (well now, the names of those dwarfs were just positively imbecilic!). So what if Cinderella is rescued by The Prince (The Chairman). In some worlds, it is just meant to be.

RUMBLINGS -

How I have enjoyed reading thru the posts. Months ago when I attempted to read Memoirs.... I put it down after a number of pages. Just did not draw me to finish. Therefore, I gobbled up all your remarks, synopses, etc. I did hear the author interviewed on a radio broadcast and that was quite interesting... how he had those many years of working it; the several rewrites.

To play the Devil's Advocate a moment regarding the novels seeming lack of interest in historical events as they might have impacted the Geisha Lifestyle: The author (through Sayuri) does drop little historical tidbits now and again (The German ambassador, Russo-Japanese War). This is done in such a way as to indicate how little these things mattered to Geisha, how little they seemed to have a bearing on the lifestyle in Gion. One could argue that the author's lack of interest in these matters reflected the characters lack of same.

Does anyone know when and how the Geisha originated? If it all started with men dressing as Geisha, was that part of the kabuki tradition or were they really and truly Geisha in the true sense of the word? And when and why did that change? My book group was interested, and we had a great discussion about the characters and the fact that this was all told by a man....though he did talk to a women. It certainly is taking a long time for women to have an equal status with men in Japan....even today, the women cook and do not sit with the company invited to their houses....they disappear into the kitchen and reappear when something is needed. My son and his wife lived there in Tokyo for year, and my son's boss's wife could not sit with them while eating. And then of cousre there is viagra and finally as a last thought, birth control for women. Barbara and Eileen and Charles...you probably know the answer to my question on Geisha history. Thanks in advance!

In the early 11th century, two women of noble birth created a new dance to entertain the warrior's circles. They dressed in white costumes representing the court dress of the warriors. They wore a tall white hat, long white gown, and a sword at the waist. This form of dance caught on and spread. Over time the costume changed to a black hat and red skirt. Then both the hat and sword disappeared. Many believe that the women who preformed this dance and wore these costumes were the early predecessors of geisha. During the 18th century, many theaters provided entertainment for the townspeople. Many teahouses were located around the theater entrances. The teahouses were not just for tea; tickets for shows would be sold there, food and drink was served, and meetings with courtesans were arranged. The actors and theater-goers that came to the teahouse could enliven their parties by calling on the services of independent performers: singers, dancers, samisen-players, and jesters. These performers were called geisha. The word geisha is made of two characters, one meaning art and one person. In 1779, authorities in Tokyo were upset by activities of the geisha. One thing that bothered them was the fact they didn't pay taxes on their wages. A meeting was held and a registry office was created to control their activities. Disciplinary rules and regulations were formulated and a code of professional conduct created. The registry office issued strict orders about dress. Only plain configured materials were allowed. Hair was to be in a uniform style decorated with a single comb, and two pins, one large and one small. The office even encouraged recruitment of comparatively plain women. Artistic skills and talent were the basis on which women were to be considered.

and Mythic Geisha

It was interesting to see how Sayuri was able to 'motivate' herself by reaching within to perform a dance with the right emotion, to learn a drum part...she even used this ability to take her mind somewhere else during her mizuage.

Oh Charles - what a wonderful site about the history of the Geisha - and these photos and paintings that you change for us - they are just beautiful - where are you finding them or are they from your own collection and you are using a scanner to share them with us. These two umbrellas outside the teahouse are just breathtaking to look upon. My printer just does not do justice.

Is there anyway you could and be willing to have an additional site with all these illustrations that we could bring back up and enjoy in the future?

My take on Sayuri reaching inside is, whenever we need to do something, or must do something that we have no choice about and we do not want our action to touch our soul, if you would, we detach. Detachment as I understand the process is to think on something else, usually something very minute, or the slow moving details of something, or splitting, while getting on with what ever is necessary. I wouldn't call this motivational so much as, getting on with it while preserving our essence.

There seems to me to be another side of this process often practiced by athelets and musicians where you get in touch with a visual or body memory of an action that again is taking you out of the present in a detached way. While dancing Sayuri seems to use this technique by getting in touch with emotional memory combined with body memory.

Well, the discussion's certainly filling, anyway!! Tastes great and more filling, but ours always are!

Charles, that's so fabulous, I wish you'd write a review and put it on either B&N or Amazon, and give seniornet.org a plug there. We certainly have the best discussions: just go look at somebody else's if you don't agree, we're, as Charlie once said, so lucky here in our participants.

Barb: well this discussion will remain always, it will be archived with its URLs in place in our archives. Was there something more you thought we should do?

I love the changing headings, too. That's a world of work to change them daily and I really appreciate Charlie's efforts there.

You know, Megan's post got me to thinking about Pearl Buck's China novels. I don't know how Buck is now perceived. She DID win the Nobel Prize for the body of her works. I wonder if a reading of THE GOOD EARTH as well as one of the ones Jim and Charlie mentioned might make a good compliment to this book for comparison. As I recall, The Good Earth takes place entirely among the life of peasants, yet...nobody would call it light. Or would they?

China is such a vast land, one can see the people being unaffected by war. Japan is quite small, and it's hard to believe that the people weren't more affected than the book shows. I believe Jim is right and it's not something the author felt he was comfortable with or wanted to address, so he didn't.

I bet the Geisha in wartime would make an entire new book.

So have we come to the conclusion that the Geisha is an old outdated thing for oldsters? And that only as a curiosity will it be preserved?? I did see the link about the new geisha.

The stuff about the shoes, incidentally, and how hard it was to walk reminded me of the foot binding of the Chinese. It wasn't until just recently that I actually understood what that WAS, physically, what HAPPENED and I was just flabberghasted. Really.

Why is it that women have been treated such through time? You don't find any men being required to bind their feet anywhere?

Ginny

Here is a perfectly marvelous photo of Tom Hubin's mother Phyllis and his daughter Elaine, wearing beautiful kimonos he brought them back from Japan!

You read and read in this book about kimonos but just LOOK at the patterns on the one Phyllis is wearing, it's stunning.

Thanks so much Tom and Theresa, and I understand Tom lived in Japan for some years, he may have some information on the position of women there!

Phyllis and Elaine in kimonos!

Ginny

Ginny--thanks for posting that picture....however, Tom brought them back from Japan!!!! not Italy..........Thanks again..

My hope is - and it may be beyond what is reasonable to ask - that a page could be developed with all the photos Charles has put up for us. As it is, each days photo, when it is changed, disappears not to be retrieved again.

Beautiful Kimono - I was going to ask about how they came from Italy - huh? Now that I understand they came from Japan I am so much calmer!

I finally started in on the book again. Mameha has Sayuri fawning over Nobu in order to ward off Hatsumomo. I don't get it - why is this working? Why is Hatsumomo laying off Sayuri just because of this?

And what is the point of Sayuri wearing the torn kimono and being nicked so she bleeds? I guess I'll have to read on to find out - but someone tell me that it's WORTH it to read on and find out!

Sarah some of the rivelry between the Geisha's seem to include using the men as tools or ammunition in their arsonel as well as this covert game playing among themselves. Except that the dress and lifestyle is so exotic some of the interplay to me, is 'a la Riseholme'. Sarah I do think this story is a light weight and for me the facination has been to learn more about the culture. I am facinated at the positioning to achieve her aim - it all says to me that Sayuri is a very good chess player with life. Within the board and each piece can only move in certain directions when taking turns but, you can vanquish your foe. Sayure does become queen.

Once we started this it was obvious that we could not turn to Bulfinch, Britannica or Encyclopedia Mythica as references to better understand the symbolism and so for me, finding and learning the history of the culture of Japan has been a opportunity. With each page and chapter I found more to ask questions about rather than providing a statisfying tale.

So sorry, it was, of course, Japan, that Tom brought it back from, and thanks to Thresea for the heads up! Have changed it. Had a bit of unsettling news this morning, guess it spilled out. Off to family gathering, all is well,

Ginny

Charles, a belated thanks for the interview with Mako Yoshikawa. So far I have only listened to her remarks about "Memoirs ..", she seemed not too happy with the idea that a man should have the temerity to write such a book. Many thanks too for your informative post and link "mythic geisha", very interesting! I too have enjoyed the headings and beautiful pictures you have devised for this discussion.

Ginny, enjoyed seeing the beautiful kimonos. Maybe you were thinking of Joan G. when you wrote "Italy" wishfully wishing you were there (: If you can find it, try to get the book by Lin Yutang I mentioned "Moment in Peking" you'll find everything discussed in that novel, including the foot binding. In regard to such stuff: what Indian tribe is it that flattens out the skull so it's enlongated? And aren't the Ubangis the ones who put plates in their lower lip to extend them? Lots of examples of awful stuff done in the name of "Beauty".

Eileen Megan

Last night a few of us were discussing this book I am reading. One of my friends had already read it, and thought it was of no consequence. Of course she didn't have the advantage of participating in the great discussion group.

She made one comment though that made me wonder if I had misunderstood. I thought that this was truly a work of fiction, and she insisted that no, the interview in New York with the older retired geisha was not fiction, but this book was based on the experiences of, if not that geisha, some other that the author had met.

I had thought it was just good research on his part.

Which is correct?

Speak to you soon.....Love, Fran

Fran - According to Golden, he did extensive research and wrote an 800 page draft of a novel about a Kyoto Geisha set in Post-WII Japan. A friend of his grandmothers then introduced him to the retired Geisha Mineko (who was interviewed in Japan). His grandmother, by the way, was Iphigene Ochs Sulzberger, of the New York Times Sulzberger's. As a result of this interview, he virtually started the book from scratch. Golden modeled his Geisha on Iwasaki Mineko, especially her cleverness and demeanor. His understanding of Geisha life was fundamentally changed, even after all his research, due to her influence. However, Golden claims to have NEVER delved into Mineko's personal history - so this is not Her-story.

Barbara - This is probably the best source of Japanese Prints on the Internet. There are some truly fabulous works of art here. The loading is sometimes slow. What I have used just scratches the surface. This is the place to go to browse Japanese Art. http://www.bahnhof.se/~secutor/ukiyo-e/ukilinks.html"> The Floating World of Cyberspace

Last night I finished the book "Memoirs of a Geisha". Well, that was a little surprise.

I am very glad that I stuck with it, and in no small part many thanks are due to you Charles, and the others who generously posted clickable sites to make the who experience worthwhile.

A book is a good read in my opinion if I can learn something, and if I find it entertaining. I surely did learn a lot from this book, and found it pretty entertaining.

I wish I knew what exactly happened to Hatsumomo and Pumpkin. They are sort of left up in the air.

When we are further along with everybody near the end I'd like to discuss what Sayuri was trying to accomplish by going to the theater.

Speak to you soon.....Love, Fran

Charles thank you for the clickable to the wonderful collection of wood block prints. They made me again aware how a few can take simple ink and paper, along with the ability to carve, make such intricate wonders.

Need to rush off Turendot is on PBS

The torn Kimono bit is one of those little plot tricks that Golden plays on us throughout the novel by his manipulation of the point of view in the novel.

Because the narraror is presumably writing this first person as we learn in the preface from a view of the past seen at present, there is no reason for her to hide the fact that the torn Kimono later turns out to be a ruse to get the doctor to think about blood- fresh young virgin geisha blood- goody goody.

Trashy trashy.

But Golden does that several times- how else to keep some suspense going- throw in a teaser like that and then unravel it later- keeps the reader going on plot to cover up the lack of substance.

I'll bet in that original 800 page book that trial readers found dull there was enough material for a third person limited point of view that could have developed an interesting well plotted story as well as some depth. Golden choose instead to go with a cheap shot at attracting readers.

Why did he write it the way he did- the same reason geisha look for Danna- Prostitiues for Johns- to make money.

I guess I have to add that as I have expressed before, I really don't like this chapter by chapter approach to reading/discussion.

I don't mind the chapter by chapter discussion of points that a particular chapter puts forth- but I think to really examine a novel in whatever sequence one has to read through it first.

Re-reading the last part of the book, I find myself backing off somewhat on my earlier contention that Golden seems little interested in the impact of "the outside" on Geisha Kyoto. There are more references here than I had originaly remembered. Golden is also consistent in the way he drops in mention of these issues. He does it in exactly the same way that he draws the details of Geisha life. Once again, I at least confuse character with author. This is Saruyi telling this story after all. Her concerns were with Geisha Kyoto and it WAS an insular world, the last segment of Japanese society, perhaps, to be impacted by the War.

We are so used to thinking, seperation of Religion and State that, to make the mental leap where the basis of State thinking is religion is not easy. As we believe in a promise of freedom, free speach, a representative speaking to our needs; Japan has, until WW2, the principles of Shintoism and Imperalism defining it's national character. I am still not clear on what Japanese Imperalism is or how it holds the country together (evidently so important that this form of government was retained by the Americans after WW2) but, the following information shows how Shintoism reinforces Imperalism.

Shinto is an ancient Japanese religion. Starting about 500 BCE (or earlier) it was originally a mix of nature worship, fertility cults, divination techniques, hero worship, and shamanism. Its name was derived from the Chinese words "shin tao" (The Way of the Gods). In the 8th Century AD: Members of the Yamato tribe became the ceremonial leaders in Japan.
Divine origins were ascribed to the imperial family.
Shinto became the official religion of Japan.

The separation of Japanese religion from politics did not occur until just after World War II.

Shinto has no real founder, no written scriptures, no body of religious law, and only a very loosely-organized priesthood. Most Japanese citizens follow two religions: both Shinto and Buddhism. Buddhism first arrived in Japan from Korea and China during the 8th century AD. The two religions share a basic optimism about human nature, and for the world.

Shinto creation stories tell of the history and lives of the "Kami." Among them was a divine couple, Izanagi and Izanami, who gave birth to the Japanese islands. Their children became the deities of the various Japanese clans. Amaterasu (Sun Goddess) was one of their daughters. She is the ancestress of the Imperial Family. Her descendants unified the country. Her brother, Susano-no-mikoto came down from heaven and roamed throughout the earth. He is famous for killing a great evil dragon.

The Sun Goddess is regarded as the chief deity. There are numerous other deities in many forms:
Those related to natural objects and creatures, from food to rivers to rocks.
Guardian 'Kami' of particular areas and clans. The Buddha was viewed as another 'Kami' (nature deity).
Divine origins were ascribed to the imperial family.

Where I am going with this is; - if the Emperor of Japan and his family was of Divine origin then, I would think the people of Japan would not have questioned, why attack China and then US on Dec. 7 and possibly saw the war as the Emperor's war and not necessarily their war. Their war effort must have been going on since the mid 1930s when Japan attacked China. Therefore, taking care of their needs may have been on the minds of everyone in Japan not just the Geisha community. It sounded like Golden was saying, cooperation with the war effort required enforcement by the Military Police. I doubt if the military police were called on just to enforce war restrictions on the Geisha community. It sounds like there is this disconnect between what is the Emperor's and what is the people's interests. Divine power seems to require military enforcement?!

Certainly this entire story seems to show a disconnect between the Geisha's needs and the various men that pay for any form of the Geisha's service. The only common denominator is money. I don't even get the impression that the men are especially bowled over by the artistic beauty the Geisha work so hard to portray. The men seem to be more interested in gossip, being catered to, and winning 'the virgin'. This appears to be a country of emotionally disconnected people.

I have been doing some research on the end of the war in the Pacific in 1945 for use in my memoirs where Okinawa and Korea play a major role in 45-46.

Barbara's post was very helpful in interpreting some of the things I found- in research and learned by experience.

The belief in the divinty of the Emperor was very critical at the end because it was at the base of the Japanese hold-out against unconditional surrended and at the same time the reason why surrended was finally possible.

It was only after people with a good background in Japanese culture got to Truman and convinced him that he should compromise at least to the point that the Emperor continue to be recognized in the post war Japan that the war could come to a quick end.

It was the first time in the history when the Emperor took an active role in state politics and the die hard hold outs gave in and agreed to the Emperor's request to surrender with the one concession to retain the position of Emperor.) The cabinet voted unanimously to accept the surrender terms and the dissenters voted to surrender and then one committed hari-kari.

Without that belief in the divinty of the emperor and blind submission to the will of the emperor the hawks in the military would have continued to make surrender very difficult even in spite of the now unanimous vote in the cabinet.

Terms of the surrender were worked out by a delegation to Mac Arthur in the Phillipines where the delegates flew first in a specially marked Japanese bomber to ie Shima (where Ernie Pyle died) and then by US plane to the Phillipines.

The commander ordered to get the bombers ready for the trip to Ie Shima commited hari-Kari and the next in command was left to make the arrangements.

In Golden's novel the chairman is made out to be a hero (in American reader's eyes) by his keeping his corporation out of the bisuness of producing war goods as much as possible.

I suspect Golden threw this is as a way of enhancing his romantic heroes image in our eyes as we read the novel. it didn't work with me.

To Golden's credit he does not end the novel where most reviews in the Romantic novel press end- ie with the final union of the lovers but with the geisha in New York City where she has outwitted the stupid chairman, has almost total power over him, and lives the life (pardon the ethnic mix) of Riley.

I liked that ending- as you can tell I was never a fan of the chairman as I read the story and was entertained by it- Golden is a good story teller. Maybe some day he will become a good novelist.

And here I was coming in to say how much I enjoyed the slow reading process!!

So I think I'll say it anyway, I did enjoy this time, reading along with the group, it was fun...

Next time we have a completely different approach! THE HOURS will be completely dealt with in the first 10 days of the discussion! Please get your copy now, it's a fast read.

MRS. DALLOWAY will be dealt with in its entirety in the second 10 days. You can read it one morning.

Then in the last 10 days we'll compare the two.

Now if you like to have the book read first, this is your oyster. If you've not tried it, please do start now and then we can also compare how we like to take a book.

After the Mann I swore I would never again read a book 5 times unless it was one of the Bensons.

Barb: thanks so much for that, so interesting and adds so much.

Jim: you are priceless: IC Blud? hahahahahahahaa Oh but he deserves it.

Has Arnold come by yet to sit on the porch? If not tell him we miss him??

Now I see something completely different in this last section, I can see why Charlie broke it where he did.

Good grief the geishas actually seem fun! The games. I, too, would like to be there. Fun mental games.

The writing is different in this section.

Fran, on page 433 Golden talks about where he got the inspiration for the thing and that the Sayuri character is entirely fictitious.

I can't help picturing Jabba the Hut for the Minister and I thought that part was heavily overdone in terms of what would SAVE the Electric Company. I'm afraid it washed right over my head.

And the character of Nobu. I'd like to hear Fran's ideas and everyone's now.

And the Chairman, how MUCH older than she WAS he, anyway??

And the son.

Well well. Cleopatra and Caesar.

Now I don't mean this hatefully, but it did remind me of Cinderella meets Beauty and the Beast.

And so I, at least, am left feeling deflated but I don't know why?

Pumpkin seems very peculiar? And very coarse.

How would you characterize this novel, then? IS it a Romance??

Ginny

Wow thanks Jim - so the Emperor may not have been 'the hawk' but somehow there were those in the government sanctioned or being facetious, blessed, by the Emperor to carrying out these Imperial acts of War. I wonder how much the Emperor was a figure head and how much he was really directly involved as an aggresser.

Do you have any information how the ceremony of Hari-Kari fit into the religion or government. I know it was a face saving expectation that we hear little of anymore. Also, watching the pre-opera special of Turandot yesterday I learned that, the picks in the hair of Asian Woman were sharp and used either to protect themselves from an attacker or to kill themselves as Liu, the slave girl does by grabbing and using Turandot's hair pick. This production of Turandot does a beautiful job of showing how much history and line of succession is important which is what the Emperor of Japan's status is based on.

You also said something profound that maybe why some of us are having a problem with this book. "Golden is a good story teller. Maybe some day he will become a good novelist." That prompts me to ask, what are the qualifications for a story to become a novel? I truly would love to know what that distinction is.

Has anyone seen the recent "MacArthur" biography on PBS. If I'm not mistaken it was MacArthur's idea to have the Emperor appear blameless and indited the Japanese military for the war, even though, according to this, the Emperor was very involved in the war.

Barbara, I saw the pre-opera Turandot, what a huge undertaking! I found it most fascinating especially when you consider the language barrier they had to overcome..

Eileen Megan

Ed Zivitz:

My whole family read and loved the book--even those of us who claim we are Luddites as well as those who consider a machine as a work of art.

Charlotte

Ok folks - this by Tomiko Higa and learned not only how Hari-Kari is a part of the Japanese tradition but also, an outline of the war from a young Japanese girls’s percpective. This is Tomiko’s account. She had, at her grandfather’s urging, escaped from the blood bath of Okinawa and lived in a cave. The only change I have made is put in bold those areas that especially refer to Hari-Kari or Bushido.

Japan, a small island nation with a strong history...believed emperor was direct descendent of Sun God and Goddess...this line has never been destroyed (unlike China where new family dynasties defeated emperor in power). Because of this, strong military developed to protect the emperor

In the 1400s and the 1500s a group of military rose to power called the samurai. These were very like the Knights of the Round Table about the same time in England. They had a code of honor (bushido) and fought for what they thought was right. They firmly believed in "death before dishonor." This meant that if they lost a battle, they would commit "seppuku" or "hari-kari" (a ceremonial form of suicide).

The tradition of the strong military remained. Japan was limited in resources and needed more. It also needed space for a growing population. When the world-wide depression hit in the early 1930s, Japan was devastated. Everyone blamed everyone else. The military sided with those who wanted to invade Manchuria. They felt that the Soviet Union was threatening to bring communism into China and protection of the people was their excuse to invade. During this time,General Tojo was Prime Minister of Japan...really the leader, not the emperor.

At the Marco Polo bridge in 1937, the situation escalated with outright fighting between the Japanese and the Chinese. Japan then totally invaded China, capturing cities, the coastline, and lines of communication in China.

After Germany invaded Poland in 1939, Japan decided they had to "get on board" with the Axis powers of Germany and Italy so that when the war was over and the countries of Asia were divided up amongst the victors, Japan would get its share. They were afraid the Soviet Union would come after it. Because Germany was at this time also trying to make the Soviet Union think that it was on their side, Japan got nervous. They began to think that maybe they should have allied themselves with the United States and Britain. They sent ambassadors to the U.S. to try to work out a deal.

The U.S. was wary of Japan because it was working with Germany and they started embargos on fuel (a resource Japan did not have). They also refused to give them money they had placed in U.S. banks and businesses as investments. Most important they wanted Japan to leave Manchuria and China. The U.S. felt that Japan was preparing a battle fleet and not negotiating fairly. The Japanese felt the U.S. was demanding impossible things and not negotiating fairly.

December 7, 1941 - Pearl Harbor. Early dawn...the Japanese like surprise attacks. They tried to synchronize precisely the declaration of war they made in Washington D.C. through their diplomats who were negotiating. 50% of American ships destroyed or rendered useless. 2334 American lives lost

There is today a question as to whether the President of the United States knew in advance of the attack...We do know that if the Japanese didn't attack, Roosevelt would have had to be the aggressor and the U.S. would have had to attack the Japanese in China.

The next day Japan attacked the American base in the Phillipines and took control of the Philippine Islands. By the summer of 1942 (6 mo. after we entered the war), the Japanese controlled: Vietnam, Cambodia, Burma, China, Manchuria, Malaysia, New Hebrides, Marshall Is., Carolines, Thailand, Java, Borneo, Philippines, Sumatra, New Guinea, Gilbert Islands, Marianas, Wake Island. The empire was 4000 miles south to almost Australia, 6000 miles east to west Burma to Gilbert Is.

The Japanese army wanted to subdue China first, then take the Soviet Union. At the beginning the U.S. forces were almost constantly in retreat. In June of 1942 (6 mo. after Pearl Harbor) the Japanese decided to take Midway, in the Hawaiian Islands, in order to destroy the rest of the U.S. fleet. They planned a complicated operation that depended on timing. The U.S. broke their codes and knew their plans. When the Japanese couldn't find the U.S. fleet of ships, they sent in waves of bombers to Midway. ("Tora, Tora, Tora" film about this)

Because the Japanese missed some U.S. planes when they bombed at Midway, the Americans found their aircraft carriers and bombed them. These aircraft carriers still contained the massive bombs that the Japanese had planned to use on the U.S. ships they couldn't find. There was massive destruction to the Japanese aircraft carriers.

Most important, the Japanese lost most of their front-line fighter pilots...they were only training 25 of them a year. Remember the old Samaurai tradition? Death before dishonor. When these pilots could not accomplish their mission, they either ditched their planes into the ocean or into the enemy and were lost themselves. They were called kamakazi pilots because of a kamakazi wind that blew back Mongol invaders centuries before.Japan had no way to replace these lost pilots. Midway was thefirst Japanese defeat in 400 yrs.

Japan saw the war in the Pacific as an East Asian problem. Tojo rarely consulted with the other Axis powers, Germany and Italy. He never met with their leaders as a group. The Allied powers (USSR, Britain, France, U.S., and China) met often and worked together on a global war. They called for the "UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER" of Axis powers. This led to tremendous problems. How could Japan unconditionally surrender, giving up all its powers to the allies, when it meant that their emperor would lose the supreme power they believed he held? It was impossible.

Japan started to lose battles with the U.S. offensive. The losses became staggering as Japan began to lose its possessions. Then the U.S. invaded the island of Okinawa. The Japanese military on the island believed they could never surrender unconditionally and they believed in the samaurai tradition of "death before dishonor." The civilians caught on the island were caught between two opposing armies, gunshot, bombed, and killed by both. The Japanese army would not allow the civilians to give up the island, even though the people were being wiped out. 49,100 U.S. lives were lost on the island of Okinawa before the fighting ended. 85% of the civilians and the military troops were wiped out. 85 out of every 100 children....85 out of every 100 women...85 out of every 100 old people...and 85 out of every 100 men.

After the war the U.S. had two objectives...to sever all vital links of communication so that the Japanese could not move troops or supplies and to destroy the Japanese war-making potential at home. The U.S. began bombing raids on Japan, on all major cities. On one night, March 10, 1945, we dropped 130 incendiary (fire) bombs on Tokyo in one night...killing 100,000 people in one night.

That summer (1945) all Japanese industry was destroyed, their railroads were nearly destroyed, their coal and oil energy sources were almost gone and they could not produce many planes. The people were at the edge of starvation, but Japan would not give up. They had lost the war...but the old samaurai code of "death before dishonor" still prevailed. They simply could not give up their emperor to an unconditional surrender.

In the meantime, the allied countries were rapidly advancing in technology and the U.S. developed the atomic bomb. This bomb was the "ultimate" weapon, capable of wiping out cities with one bomb. After Okinawa, it became clear that Japn would not give up until all its people were dead and the country in ruins. Many, many Allied lives would also be lost in this.

A horrible moral decision had to be made. The U.S. had the ultimate weapon...one so powerful that Japan would be forced to give up. If used, many thousands...and maybe tens of thousands...of innocent women, children, and old people would die...but it would force Japan to give up the fight and surrender. Should it be used?

President Truman determined that one last attempt would be made to persuade the Japanese military to give up. At a conference of Allied leaders in Pottsdam, he again called for "unconditional surrender." When Japan ignored it, the first nuclear bomb was dropped on Hiroshima on August 6, 1945, killing 100,000 people, and maiming others for life...or forcing them to a slow and often painful death from radiation poisoning. Because Japan still did not surrender, a second atomic bomb was dropped opn Nagasaki on August 9, 1945.

The emperor then took over for the Prime Minister, Tojo, and Hirohito said that his people had suffered enough. He agreed to unconditional surrender.

This is a link to the American CAMPAIGN FOR OKINAWA

Hi All:

I was away from the computer for a week, but managed to finish Memoirs

I am very interested in how a writer works. The interview with Golden was fabulous

As soon as I finished the book I started back to the first page to seek out interesting metaphors.

They are fascinating and typical of what I would expect from a Japanese woman.

At the very beginning they come full and fast. When Chiyo hears mention of Yoroido she feels"like a bird who has flown across the ocean and comes upon a creature that knows its nest." "I couldn't stop saying, "Yoroido! Why that's where I grew up."

"You growing up in a dump like Yoroido. That's like making tea in a bucket."

The description of the tipsy house.: It was as if the ocean had caught a terrible cold. It was always wheezing and there would be spells when it let out a huge sneeze in a burst of wind with tremendous sprayl

There are more and I could go on and on, but there is so little time with V. Woolf and The Hours coming up.

I think Golden and his character did a great job on describing everything with a truly Japanese flavor. But it almost took him 15 years to finish the book, not counting all the years he spent in study of the Japanese language and literature.

It is, however, a sad story. Though I have experienced some oppression as a woman, it is nowhere near the experience of the woman who became a geisha, "because there was no other choice."

Of course the actions of the men were abomniable. I hope now that they are coming into contact with Americans they may change, though American men still have lot to learn.

I think the geisha who helped Golden was still in her forties. I hope she finds a more fruitful and rewarding life for herself here.

Charlotte

Many thanks to Barbara and Jim for giving me more insight about the background of Japan and what was going on during the war.

Personally, I feel that Nobu was treated very shabbily by Sayura. I thought that she stated earlier in the book that she would never betray Nobu. I think what she did was horrendous, and I was very surprised that the Chairman didn't feel the same way about his friend being betrayed after hearing the plan from Pumpkin.

That to me was a very trashy ending.

A young man that I correspond through E Mail with read most of the book this weekend, and this is what he wrote me.

"I didn't quite finish the book. I just got to where she has returned to Gion after the war. I find the book to be quite sad, and as much about what perverts these guys are, as the weird life of these manipulative women running this geisha network. And where are these guys' wives, what are these "drinking games" we hear so much about? What's the difference between this and Heidi Fleiss? They are all whores and madams, bottom line. More to come when I finish the book."

I can hardly wait. This is a young man who speaks his mind. He lives in Los Angeles.

Speak to you soon.....Love, Fran

I believe that Sayuri's thoughts on adversity show how much she has matured during the war as she was torn away from her Geisha life. She now seems ready to take her place as the successor to Mameha, a woman, as much as she is able in post-war Japan, who will do what is necessary to take control of her own destiny. Paralleling this, Golden gives us Pumpkin who is ready to take her place as the successor to Hatsumomo. A woman most preoccupied in protecting her turf, and revenge.

OK, how about these apples or words of, as my mother would say, 'sweat honey' from Phoebe Eng, written in her book, Warrior Lessons a book about Asian woman between two cultures.

"...'Geisha' complex, not necessarily limited to Asian woman...constantly pleasing others and putting herself in second place. Unable to separate her thoughts and feelings from the other people's, she lacks self-confidence and boundries and is prone to tolerate abuse. Her aim is to maintain the status quo at any cost. In her hostile dependencies, her anger remains unexpressed. Instead, it is unconsciously captured in her body before it escapes...chronic fatique, locked jaws, panic disorder, irrational fears...the rage of the Geisha is like a powder keg. Once ignited, it exploids with a shocking boom, in a rash response that may not be a reaction to the immediate situation, but is instead the result of the long-term suppression of anger.

Pumpkin??

In fact how about, Mother AND Hatsumomo??

Barbara - great post on the Geisha complex. I see a lot of that out here in San Francisco. There's also a lot of anger among Asian men (and women) about white men who marry Asian women because they expect them to be subservient "flowers" without minds of their own.

I just finished the part where Sayuri has her mizuage. I just cannot believe that a woman - even in the geisha culture - would take her first sexual experience so lightly. It was as if it didn't happen. Ditto her experiences with the military danna. It means nothing to her. She just does it - like slicing potatos or putting on socks. I cannot believe any woman ever feels this way. I wonder if her reactio would have been different if a woman, rather than a man, wrote the book.

I have been away from my pc for about a week and though I read the month a couple of months ago, will put in my last few words: I am so thankful I grew up in America and was not subjected to such a life as a Geisha lives. To have been sold by her father, and her leaving the tipsy house, which she referred to so lovingly, seems such a tragedy. Then to have met the Chairman and loved him, I guess, in such a way, to be in his presence at times but still sit down and titter with other men, my minds is a blank as how to describe this.

The sexual encounters are all very strange, I thought. She could have been eating an apple while the man huffed and puffed!!

I am not sorry I read the book, though I thought I putting it down a number of times, and I have enjoyed the discussion, though I have not made many comments myself.

Sarah & Betty don't you think y'all would detach if y'all knew there was no meaning other then commerce behind what was happening? Sayuri could not let this in and risk this experience touching her emotions or her soul. This did not represent love or any future committment of love or a future relationship other than one of commerce. If she allowed this experience to touch her she would have nothing of herself left. This curtain may be all she has that allows her to go forward without expressing the rage of becoming a commodity. Her body and sexuality is now a commodity but, NOT her core being.

Most of this discussion has focused on the women in this book, but it is the men that have amazed me.

I can understand the women completely. They had little choice in whether they were to become geishas or charwomen. The ones who became geishas had a far more interesting life than the peasants. Not necessarily fulfilling, but different.

However the men......I would be absolutely bored to death if somehow I was forced to sit with chattering, inane, women or men for more than a few minutes. Even if they were waiting on me hand and foot.

I do understand it was a different time and a different culture, but I do thank my lucky stars that I was not part of that picture. I don't think I would have lived very long.

Speak to you soon.....Love, Fran

My computer (home) committed seppuku last night. I'll be out of commission for a few days. See ya' later

Charlie

Charlie! hahahahahhaha, well the upside of that is we get to see your glorious illustrations in the heading a couple of more days.

I love that one today and I love that quote. Adversity makes us stronger. Does it, really? And pares down to the bone till we find out who we are.

Tell you one thing, you find out who your FRIENDS are. That's for sure. Or who they aren't.

"We see ourselves as who we really are."

Wasn't it Burns who said if we could only see ourselves as others see us? I personally have always had a hard time with self image, have never had a clear or focused idea and have absolutely NO idea what image I might present.

That's one thing I've always liked about SeniorNet and our Books in particular: we can be free to be ourselves, who we really are. I really like that. If we're "bookish" in nature, we can find fellow bibliophiles who are eager and excited to chat over a book. That's SO nice. I'm quite grateful for every comment here.

"I understood the danger of focusing only on what isn't there."

It's so much easier, sometimes, to focus on what's not there than to deal with what IS there. But I agree, it IS dangerous. What do YOU think, tho, that the author meant by this remark?

Fran: The last 1/3 of the book presented to me, anyway, a different picture of the men. I found the repartee at the joint geisha things actually interesting, the games, etc. Note that the men are almost always soused. I guess a mole would be fantastically interesting to them.

When you add to that the fact that apparently this is some kind of fantasy wish come to life? That they apparently build this UP into some kind of romantic (and I don't mean LOVE) ideal (witness the guy staring spellbound at the buck toothed geisha) then I guess we could say that the men in the book allow themselves to be FREE only in these situations, letting their hair down, if you will. And so would we say that in that light, the Japanese are no different from anybody else?

Think of the Victorians. The straight laced Victorians. There was more awful hanky panky going on there than here. It almost seems that the more rigid the culture the more decadent the relaxations.

China and the opium dens comes to mind.

Or think of...Bankok. One night in Bankok and the world's your oyster, you know. The Taiwanese women.

I think maybe the outstanding thing here is NOT the fact OF the geisha but the lack of same in other regimented cultures.

As far as the character of Nobu, I, too, think he was treated shamefully, and am a bit surprised at the Chairman for even wanting to follow up a relationship ESPECIALLY after the explanation.

He that is faithful in a little is faithful in much. How did The Chairman know that it wouldn't happen to him?

I think if you accept Nobu's kindness on getting you OUT of a situation (but, HEY, what happened to those left behind? They seemed to do OK) then you owe him a debt which you should repay, not shabbily use him. Why couldn't she just say NO? After all, the Teahouse turned DOWN the Minister's request to be her Danna. (Sugar Daddy).

I'm interested in the fact that Golden threw away one version after he talked to a real geisha and got his facts straight. Wonder why they wouldn't have been straight before?

Ginny

One of the things I have noticed in the book is that few people die in the course of the many years the novel covers and the death of those that do is covered very remotely- never close up or with a reaction by the narrator that really puts the reader in the skin of the narrator.

An example is the death (which occurs offstage so to speak) of the mother very early in the novel.

The narrator tells us of her upcoming death and then explains the artifacts of death almost like an American lady (man) of our culture would in giving a lecture on death in Japanese culture.

I never really feel at that moment or many other places in the novel that I am really inside the narrator looking at the story from her perspectives as I do with the first person narrrative in Poisonwood.

One of the major symbols of the Shinto religion, the major religion of Japa is the mirror becasue it reevals thinks clearly as they are.

I don't ever feel comfortable in this novel that I am looking into that

Ginny, Leave it to you and Charles - you for focusing attention on what Charles found, a quote that to me sapiently introspective.

Perfect, rather then gritching thru life, use even the smallest adversity to find our stregth and courage and as an opportunity to develope additional skills - wonderbar

Jim, I guess Golden gave us the mirror.

As to Sayuri's treatment of Nobu and what the Chairman can expect - Sayuri is in business. She wants a piece of her dream and uses the tools of her business to obtain her dream. As for the Chairman, he never divorces to marry Sayuri in New York. - and corperate Japan plays 'King of the Mountain' for a Geisha.

I guess I hoped that Nobu would turn nice and gentle and that Sayuri would end up with him. But neither of them were geared for a real relationship. He was too bitter and she had been trained to concentrate only on what she could get. They could never have made it together.

Charlotte

I received a post from the young man I quoted earlier on, and his take on the Chairman is devastating. He starts off by pointing out how the Chairman spotted her at such a tender age, and gave her some money, which he likened to giving candy to a child to lure them into a trap. Then he arranged with Mameha to train her to be a geisha so that he could "have her" when she became a little older. And sure enough she does fall into the trap, as if she had any other good choice, and he gets her in the end. That was his plan from the very beginning.

Ginny, I do appreciate what you are saying, but since I have little patience with tittle tattle, is that a word, I still find it hard to believe that the men would enjoy that.

Speak to you soon.....Love, Fran

hahhaha, Fran, keep in mind these men are totally stoned out of their minds, can't even walk. They would find a snail fascinating, much less something they've built up their illusions over.

That's interesting, what's the Young Man's name, I wish he'd come join us, it's interesting, that "take" on the Chairman. I wish I could figure out how much older the Chairman IS, in this case. And he took quite a chance, didn't he? After all, she HAD another Danna, and I can't remember what became of him? Who knows without looking back?

Anyway, if he were young and prosperous, she might have been lost to the Chairman forever.

Apparently, then, when he saw her in a compromising position, it would account for his not being turned off, if your friend's theory is correct, as he recognized one of his own kind!

Charlotte: Do you think he TRIED, tho, for a real relationship? The rock in the cloth? Wasn't Nobu trying there??

Ginny

Jim, a society such as Japan’s was shaped over the centuries by an entirely different culture.. I didn’t expect to understand their way of thinking. Maybe it’s a big assumption but I accepted Golden’s interpretation of Saruyi’s character and the others. To understand the way the Japanese thought at this time would require a lot more than reading this book.

An analogy that comes to mind is how slavery was accepted in this country. Were all slave owners evil people, of course not, can we understand their way of thinking? How could men of Washington and Jefferson’s stature accept it? Why did it take another 100 years and the Civil Rights protest to right the wrongs? Well, there you are, another time, another place but dreadful wrongs were commited.

My only criticism of the book is in the last few chapters with the “Barbara Cartland” ending. Up to that point I was a believer in her tale. I wasn’t looking for a Madam Butterfly ending but at least something more imaginative than this shlock.

Ginny, maybe my thoughts on the ending would be just as bad - I thought it would have been more in keeping with the rest of the book if she ended up with Nobu!

Eileen Megan

Megan, what a fabulous thought! How WOULD we all have ended the book? Does anybody LIKE the ending? And if not, what would YOU have done?

OH good question!! I want to think on it.

Back later,

Ginny

I would not have ended it as I would never have started it.

I would never write a memoir from that perspective.

Mine would have to have something of me in it- even if fictional.

But maybe there is some Golden in here.

Perhaps hidden away in one or another of the male characters.

Maybe he is a closet Sumo wrestler.

Not quite there yet - but am struggling to get there in the next day or so.

I suspect I'm not going to like it given what you all have said, but I'll keep an open mind!

Was Nobu really a good person? I don't really get that from him. I sense no warmth or real caring.

As far as adversity goes. This is just from my personal observation of course, but I do not think that adversity is a good thing when you are growing up, much less as you go through life. I think it tends to make one wary, uncertain, jealous, and most other adjectives you could think of to add. I am sure there are exceptions, of course, but I think those are the exceptions. The only thing that could help the adversity, as you are growing up is a very loving family who are comfortable and accepting of the adversity.

Now about the ending....Aha.....I would turn Sayuri into a very enterprising young woman who after the war returns to Gion, and decides to stop being a geisha, dependent on the kindness of men, and opens some kind of shop. Of course it would be a huge success, and "they lived happily ever after, as they strode into the sunlight".

There are still three people ahead of me at the library waiting for our next selection .....is it The Hours? At any rate I'll start reading Mrs. Dalloway tomorrow night.

I leave for Alaska around the 5th of July, and will return around the 20th.

Speak to you soon.....Love, Fran

OOPS! There goes our Fran, and our Summer Migration has begun! Still those of us here in front of the hearth can enjoy vicariously the travels of our members: I know Fran O will have at least ONE book along, as do we all.

I myself leave Saturday, returning Wednesday, with The Hours and Mrs. Dalloway already packed.

I got up wondering this:

Many of us have expressed disappointment with the ending of Geisha.

Why?

What did we expect??

WHY are we disappointed?

Does this mean we "tied into" the character, after all? We cared about her as a real person?

The plot is the author's to do with as he wishes, why are we disappointed?

If this IS a plot, what was the climax?

I'm having a problem determining exactly WHERE in the story line I broke off so I know where to START changing it.

I think it was when she left the city, that all didn't hang together for me at all.

I think my ending will be a lot darker than any we've seen so far.

WE MISS YOU, CHARLIE!!

Ginny

Just a note about Fran's question: Yes, it's THE HOURS followed by MRS. DALLOWAY by Virginia Woolf. The first won the Pulitzer Prize and is ABOUT Virginia Woolf. The second is about what being a woman means (now, men, this will be good for you!) and is BY Virginia Woolf. If you have always been AFRAID OF VIRGINIA WOOLF, here is your chance to lay the demons to rest.

I understand there is a movie called Mrs. Dalloway, when we get to that part of the month, let's rent it and watch it, and compare it, why NOT??

I didn't know Virginia Woolf committed suicide, but until I went to Milan's La Scala, I didn't know Callas did, either.

Sarah: great point about Nobu! WAS he, indeed, a "good" person? And what, I now wonder, of Mahema? I now see her in a totally different light!

Jim: great point, which one is Golden?? I wonder if HE is SHE? I did note that slanting reference to male geishas.

Ginny

The ending disappointed me in a different way - I saw the'old saw' a woman painted as the Loreli again - you know the thing that guys have been saying since the Greeks - Woman get what they want through sex.

Since Sayuri carried the Chairman's handkerchief with her like a talisman that was to her symbol of a remembered act of kindness, the day she set her lifetime agenda and was used to wipe away her tears (save face) she had a dream of the Chairman as her 'knight in shining armour' if you would. From the beginning her relationship with Nobu was to further her 'career'. Yes, there were times when she became softer and kindly toward him but she always had her talisman tucked in her obi.

Sayuri seems to have become financially successful and the Loreli discription seems to be the typical explination for woman going after their dreams especailly if they are financially successful.

What a marketing package this book represents for hollywood - all the exotic color of pre-WW2 Japan, the world of the Geisha that most are not familiar with and therefore again, the exotic and of course keeping woman in their rightful place. Shoesh!

Barbara - your post reminds me of something else - is it realistic that based on one brief encounter (mitigated by many many later encounters that were not at all "magical") that Sayuri would pine away for the Chairman year after year? Carry his handkerchief wherever she went? I can perhaps imagine it if she had the first encounter and then never saw him again - maybe. But he was indifferent to her time after time, and yet she still pined. Doesn't quite ring true for me.

Still struggling to reach the ending - started a new book Bone by Bone by Peter Matthiessen in the interim which I'm liking MUCH more - but I'm either going to get there this weekend - or give up!!

Throughout the book the chairman is presented as a father figure to the heroine and in fact acts that way in many ways- getting her established with a good mentor- etc.

I wonder if readers ever stop to think about the essential fact that the father does end up in bed with the daughter.

Father's Day is coming up.

Should we fathers choose an attractive daughter and go to bed with her, Chairman style- I think not.

No way Jose. I have enough daughter trouble as it is without adding that complication to the mix.

An beside that, I'm going to tell my son, Oedipus, to stop hanging around the house and go find a girl Just like the one that married dear old dad- but not the same one.

I think your uneasiness about the Chairman and this possible "daughter fixation" is similar to what the young man I was discussing the book with thought was possible.

I don't know why I did care that the ending was so unsatifactory to me. I guess I did care at least a little bit about the characters to feel that way. I was definitely sympathetic to Nobu at the end. Who likes to be betrayed?

I want to comment on a book I read a review of today in the Wall Street Journal. It sounds like such a clever idea. A married woman tells her husband and son she has to leave for Europe, and then doesn't go, but rents a room at a seedy motel in town to spy on them and her friends. Then I think the husband is killed......but by whom??? The name is "The Russian".

Speak to you soon.....Love, Fran

Sarah I don't know if it is reasonable - I do see that handkerchief representing a lot to her. Not only was it an act of kindness in her bleak life but it was as a result of the change (money) that was given with the handkerchief that she set her course for life with great fervor. The Chairman may have been like an inner button that got pushed, not only reminding her of safe kind feelings but, the accompanying feeling of fervor that allowed her to, each time she sees him, renew her commitment to be the best. (I remember being given a lovely blue chiffon hanky edged in white lace by one of my most favorite nuns when I was in the 4th grade for doing the best in I think math. Whatever, the up-shot I always tucked that hanky in my uniform pocket on test day until Senior year High and I still have it in my memory box. It reminded me of her belief in me and that I could do it.)

To me, if Sayuri continued her kindness to Nobu she would be giving herself up completely - abandoning the little of herself she has left, her dream. And her dream is, all her good feelings which are now centered on the Chairman. Not the dream of a prince, the man but, a dream of what is possible to attain, to have her inner self accepted tears and all and yet an explosion of 'I am woman' kind of feeling. Almost like dreaming of becoming president when your in the 6th grade. That kind of dream.

This whole father daughter thing that Jim and Fran's young man have picked up, seems to me is expressing the imbalance of power that the Chairman has compared to and over Sayuri and how easy it was for him to become an idol in her eyes. (Yes, just like an incestuous relationship. Which further illustrates the huge emotional difficulty and dilemma breaking free from such a relationship, especially if it's bases is 'kindness?'.) He, with his smooth skin was the most calculating of them all. He wanted what he wanted and was the quiet director plotting and taking advantage of every false move. The real yokozuna (top ranked Sumo wrestler)!

Had he and Sayuri married after she got to New York, then I would think highly of him, that he really had her best interest at heart. But it simply looked to me that he beat his rival. His rivalry was gently alluded to when Sayuri and Nobu first met at the Sumo event. The Chairman had no interest in Sumo and almost jiddied Nobu about his interest and knowledge of Sumo wrestling. Even in his rivalry the Chairman did not openly show his competitive side. A very manipulative man and yet charming. Amazing, how well he matches the perfect description of a incestuous father.

Which makes me wonder what this story was all about. What is the greater understanding to come away with after reading Memoirs? All these squirmy relationships, guile and painful treatment one for another under the guise of an exotic and colorful setting??!!

Great post, Barbara! WHAT was this book really about, anyway? Great idea. I don't know!!!

I guess our disenchantment with this book comes somewhat from our own lives? We know if we carry a hankie around (marvelous comparison, Barb!!) all our lives that when we meet Prince Charming again, he's NOT going to live up to it. We know this because we ourselves have experienced like feelings? And so when, of course, he appears (HOW COME HE didn't help her get OUT, by the way??) we're groaning OH NO, OH NO!

So the author is saying, well, heckers, it's MY book and I'll make a fairy tale ending if I want to and I'll even set her up as a single successful entity using the son as an excuse in NYC!! Everything and ALL for the Chairman!!

See you Wednesday

Gag-literally!

This is why I love this BookClub online. You make me think. I shall think more about the Chairman and Sayuri and Nobu this afternoon, and if I come up with anything that hasn't been said I'll post it.

Ginny.....I hope you and your family have a great time, on what sounds like an abbreviated vacation. Hope you enjoy the new books.

Barbara....Your comments are so on the money, and your many contributions to this discussion have been priceless. Thank you so much.

Charles we have missed you a lot. Hope your computer is up and running again quickly.

Speak to you soon.....Love, Fran

Back from Plug N’ Play Hell. I think I’ve got things all sorted out. Not hard since I LOST everything, but…well, adversity IS a character builder!!

Here we are at the end. My major disappointments as the ‘plot’ wound down was how obviously telegraphed things became starting with Pumpkin bringing the Chairman instead of Nobu to their tryst place. Talk about a mile away. Also too many lost characters for my taste in this type of book – I believe all characters should be present and accounted for. Whatever happened to….??

I did like the sort of symmetry of Pumpkin turning into the spiritual heir of Hatsumomo (“It was as though the spirit of Hatsumomo had been living trapped inside her all these years, and had finally broken free”) and Sayuri turning into the spiritual heir of Mameha. Sayuri’s gambit that led to her move to New York was every bit as clever as Mameha’s hatakikomi plan to rid Sayuri of Hatsumomo. That’s the way I looked at it anyway. I did like that denouement

Looking back (Chapter 35) 40 years later, Sayuri says that she “began to feel like a tree whose roots had at last broken into the rich, wet soil beneath the surface.” I believe the author’s intent here was to show the melding of the water and wood elements of her personality as she reached maturity.

Ginny has made an interesting suggestion – that a ‘review’ be posted to B&N. (An aside – when I checked the B&N site for the current review status, I noticed that the books is listed with Arthur Golden, author and Jacob Haarhuis, Translator. Ha! They fell for that one!) Here’s what I’d like to do. Post YOUR review here. Please include a “star” rating (1-5). With your permission, I’d like to compile them into an official SN review and post it to the B&N site. Currently there are 44 customer reviews with an average rating of 4 ½ stars. What do you think?

Charles, sorry but I would only give it a 3 - I've had fun though finding out more about Japanese culture and history. To me it was only one step up from 'pulp' fiction. The one step being the exotic setting.

Found this site with photos of ancient and continuous summer festivals in Kyoto and the area nearby. One festival in Gion is over 1,100 years old, a celebration of Yasaka Shrine in Kyoto, Festival

It's no more than a 1-2 in my book. I really disliked this book intensely, I'm sorry to say. The character development was poor. I couldn't get a handle on what a character stood for - before s/he completely changed and became a person other than the one I thought I knew.

I didn't particularly care for any of the characters - not even Sayuri. She was flat, lifeless. Much of her inner life was missing.

Nobu was another teflon character. I guess he was supposed to be a good person - but why? I never felt any warmth coming from him. He was a man deformed by terrible circumstance who "guilt-ed" Sayuri into loyalty toward him with lavish gifts. I didn't have any sense of his humanity.

The Chairman was a mere caricature. I had no idea what he was thinking, so that when the "romance novel" ending came around, it was completely implausible.

What ever came of Satsu? Why didn't we learn more of her life - I think it would have been very interesting. What about Mr. Tanaka? Mameha - another character who became thinner and thinner and then sort of vanished.

Ugh.

Everything you ever wanted to know, and then some about chopsticks Had no idea chopsticks are so personal that you never borrow another's chopsticks or bowels and the size of your chopstick is based on your body size, or that different woods have different meanings and there are parables refering to chopsticks.

Barbara - for years, my father collected chopstick RESTS! Another whole world unto itself, I learned.

I guess I thought that Charles was asking us if it was all right to post all the votes of the SeniorNet reading club, rather than what we rated the book.

Charles it is fine with me for you to vote it on the Barnes and Noble site. How about on the Amazon.com book site as well. Or is there a reason we cannot recognize them because we allow Barnes and Noble to advertise here in return for a rebate? Whatever you do is all right with me. Just please let me know.

Okay for my vote......Once I got past the beginning the story was very interesting to me since this was a part of the culture I knew absolutely nothing about. However like the others I had some great disappointments. The most obvious is as has been pointed out....What became of Satsu, Mameha, etc. And of course I have already disclosed my displeasure at the tacky way Sayuri tried to get rid of Nobu.

Speak to you soon.....Love, Fran

So......I vote it a 3 and 1/2 stars.

The Eternal Soup

Sayuri’s final thoughts reminded me of Thomas Mann’s Eternal Soup. In a dream, she drinks from a bowl of soup, every “sip was a kind of ecstasy” as an old man tells her of his memories of all his time together with his wife. As she remembers all of those who had died or been lost to her, she seems to be remembering each and every one of them with each sip of this “extraordinary soup.” She drinks the memories of everything she ever cared for and accepts their loss – but at the same time they are ever present to her, a natural part of her chain of life. The sum total of our experiences and our acquaintances does make up a kind of soupy concoction, doesn’t it? More a stew, perhaps. Which we stir and sip and taste sparingly. Sometimes noticing the spicier parts, and sometimes really tasting the fuller flavor of our broth. Our tastes change – our palate acclimatized to different tastes at different periods of our life. But it’s all somehow, there. Bubbling, thickening. Becoming fuller of body and flavor. Sometimes a whiff of something we hadn’t though of in years…

Barbara, SarahT and Fran – Thanks for your reviews. (If I’m Arthur Golden, I don’t want to meet SarhT in a dark alley!) Keep ‘em coming. I’ll attempt to ‘synthesize’ them all and post it and note the link back here.

I am glad to finally finish with Geisha.

In spite of Charles's gallant, noble, and brilliant efforts to make it far more profound than it really is, it is a rather shallow pot-boiler of a novel.

I am not into the numbers thing so won't assign a number.

I think it is a good book for what it is. It is an interesting and well told story.

I guess my main disappointment was in thinking about what it might have been as compared to what it was.

With that extensive background and research the author had enough material to do more.

I hpoe someday he writes the novel that he can write.

In spite of all the hoopla about his ability to tell a genuine story from the point of view of another culture- he didn't and wasn't really able to do that.

For a quick read it is as good or better than most quick reads- for a book to read and savour and search for the condition and nuances of human existence it ain't there.

I have been reading some of Nobel prize winning Kenzaburo Oe, a Japanese writer, and whatever one thinks of him and I have some mixed feeling there- there is just no comparison between Golden pretending to be Japanese and Oe who is Japanese.

I imagine Oe might be capable of writing a novel as if he were an American. It would probably be even worse that Golden's attempt to be Japanese.

Ar least Oe has the good sense or maybe artistic integrity not to try.

Golden needs to get back to the USA and his own experiences to draw on to write the novel he needs to write to move up the literary ladder.

For now he is somewhere near the bottom with lots of company and a bankroll that should allow him the freedom to do more.

Ginny :

I did see several instances of Nobu's reaching out to Sayuri, but absolutely nothing from the Chairman. If both Sayuri and Nobu had been able to look beyond their deficiencies they may have had a chance.

Charlotte

She could go either way. There are enough enclaves in NY where she could continue the way of life she found in Japan. Or she could go to what was then the free University system and get some education other than that concentrating on pleasing men.

Charlotte

Jim - I like Oe a lot. He deserved his Nobel prize. I do have some trouble reading over and over about his son, however.

Charles - sorry to be so harsh. I guess I'm harder on books with a big build up than I would be if it didn't purport to be more than it is - a quick read.

I found the following article in our local paper the Enterprise written by Katherine Roth AP. This is not the full text but most of it:

"Golden befriended Ms Nakamura before writing his book. Steven Spielberg’s film depiction of the novel is due out in December 2000.

The woman partly responsible for the current flood of Geisha-wannabes is disgusted that her art has been appropriated by American pop culture. “I took a very strict examination to become a geisha. I studied very, very hard,” said Kiharu Nakamura, her eyes moist as she remembers long nights with drunken clients and exhausting days of lessons in traditional arts. “I want to correct the idea of geisha,”she said . . .. Despite the geisha’s image as a sort of high-class prostitute, the women are really professional entertainers and generally do not sleep with clients. Traditionally they dance, tell amusing stories and play party games; the name geisha means “practitioner of arts.” Ms. Makamura, 87, spent years studying Jampanese dance, flower arrangement, the tea ceremony, poetry and other skills. Before becoming a geisha she had to pass a grueling exam. Unlike Golden’s protagonist, Ms. Makamura was a Tokyo geisha. She is from a wealthy family of doctors and chose to become a geisha, with her grandfather paying the hefty cost of her training and her silk kimonos. she has written her own memoirs - “Edokko Geisha Ichidai-ki” Biography of a Tokyo Geisha. Available only in Japanese and German it will be translated into English next year.

Eileen Megan

Thanks, Eileen. The acknowledgements indicate that Kiharu Nakamura "kindly spent an evening talking with [Golden]" during his research for the book.

A visit to Borders while half way through Memoirs... I spied and have been reading ‘Selling Dreams How to Make Any Product Irresistible’ by Gian Luigi Longinotti-Buitoni, President and CEO of Ferrari North America.

Upon embarking on reading Memoirs... and learning that even the opening called Translator’s Note was fictitious, then seeing how easily and gullible I believed what is typically not fictiousious, the introduction, and the shallow simply focused story, with victimized children and a sub culture of ‘pleasing’ woman, I became suspicious that Golden was writing for a movie. Then when y’all confirmed the story was already in the Hollywood dream machine it was easy to understand the simplicity of the story line, surprise twists and for that matter the shallow characters where future color and action will make up for depth.

The story matches the elements of the ‘Irresistible Dream Product’ that will further be packaged and sold by the masters of the Irresistible Dream Product.

Here are some quotes from ‘Selling Dreams How to Make Any Product Irresistible’ that will illustrate Memoirs... as the perfectly written ‘Dream Product’!

Dreams, in their most common meaning, refer to an ideal, an aspiration, or a state of mind in which the proper perception of reality is rearranged...these are the products and services we crave to stimulate our imagination and emotions...Luxury best expressed man’s aspiration for what is rare or out of reach, as well as the sublime desire for material pleasure that has often been branded sinful. This urge to aspire to more than nature or social status can offer in not only fundamental to human nature, but also as ancient as its first evidence in the story of Adam and Eve

Luxury is derived from the Latin Luxus, signifying sensuality, abundance, splendor, or refinement. Linked to Lux and Luxuria it refers to the extreme sensuality and sexuality usually associated with sin. Desire is defined not by that which one has, but by that by which one is tempted....Starting with the Middle Ages, these wicked aspirations took on a seductive appearance laced in sensuality and beauty. Feudal lords spent their fortune not on their own personal desires but to declare their superiority and to please their entourage...The Renaissance appointed opulence and romantic theatrical display a political roll. Artist, artisans and men of culture suddenly proved more useful than generals and less expensive or risky than waging war...Leisure time and television have boosted the number of dreamers striving for exciting entertainment previously reserved only for the rich.

The interpretation of dreams, is becoming a critical skill... Dreams must surprise and excite, must produce wonder and intrigue are created to exceed the customer’s imagination...To inspire its customers’ dreams a company (writer, movie) has to transport them to a world that is more exciting, more seductive more romantic than the one they live in...The luxury and movie industries’ business mission both play upon the customers’ dreams...Customers flock to a movie for an emotional boost...Ferrari does not sell automobiles, but rather the dream of speed engineered to be strikingly attractive. The Ritz is not just a hotel room , but a palace of splendor and refinement.

Fundamental dreams that fuel business are dreams of social recognition, freedom and heroism....An admired hero combines all the dreams and becomes a semigod enjoying a life free of limits. Movies, sports, and glamorous magazines offer the role models we look to imitate, letting us live vicariously through their heroic deeds...Being beautiful seems to be a prerequisite for success. The weak and ugly are naturally overpowered by the strongest and most beautiful. We are taught beautiful people are good and only villains are ugly...Dreams have more excitement and more glamour than hope.

Movies are a way you can see your dreams, parts of life you are fantasizing about feeling... Movies allow your mind to roam and think you are one of the characters, they allow you to have access to what you did not have before, they allow you to satisfy your need to escape to a world you do not have. Actors are beautiful because people dream about being beautiful. You buy emotions, escapism, whether it is glamorous or action-oriented.

Movies need to evoke strong reactions and need to touch the largest possible spectrum of emotions as; Ralph Lauren who is selling the American country feel, the Western wealth, and his quality through years of consistent positioning. A great script makes the dream possible. A great script includes, glamour, romance, surprise, money, action, fun, and gossip. The director keeps the vision and has flourished by exploiting man’s emotional frailties.

Educating customers is a tough campaign...Customers tend to base their decisions on the brand rahter than on the products or services offered...one attribute of the power brand is satisfaction...Aspiration is another qualifier on the power brand index...because we feed the dreams.

A dream maker must seduce ...where each moment becomes so intense that it is difficult to know whether he is seducing or being seduced... he introduces a sense of uncertainty and ignites a passionate desire by developing in his chosen ones a feeling of anxiety and ambiguity. The erotic (which means the study of love, happiness, and emotional life in general) must awaken sensuality and the voices of passion; must intensify anxiety and concentrate all attention upon the object of desire. He seduces by stimulating the ambivalence and training the fantasy...It is not about formulating a rational decision, but rather rovoking emotional locomotion...requires continual surprise through a poetical transformation of reality into a romance that takes people to a dream state...desire is an expression of anxiety...relay a seductive message that confuses poetry with reality, truth with romance...is to glorify the customer's emotions.

Barbara: It should come as no shock to anyone that most (if not all) commercialism is about the selling of dreams. (At least in this part of the world)

Some excellent studies of this subject are:

(1) The Hidden Persuaders by Vance Packard

(2) The Father of Spin ( the story of Edward L Bernays & the birth of public relations by Larry Tye

For a more didactic approach try Thorsten Veblen's "Theory of the Leisure Class"

Doesn't the Latin word LUX mean light...as in Lux Aeterna?

Although we can see where LUXUS got corrupted into LEXUS (a Japanese auto...makes one wonder)

Yes Ed, Lux is Light - I tried to abbreviate the thought - the quote is; "Linked to two other words - lux, or light, and luxuria- it refers to the extreme sensuality and sexuality usually associated with sin.

And yes, I do agree commercialism is about the selling of dreams - I just am not used to a piece of literature so blatantly limiting itself to selling me a dream, creating it's own commercial spin. I like to come away from reading a book with, an opportunity for some introspection or, a new idea or, an example of worthwhile qualities that I would add to my life or, at least a better understanding of the philosophy for the characters in the story. Not just an assult on my senses that does not further my humanity.

How fabulous this all is!! AND we're about to have our very first ever joint SeniorNet review and I hope our breathtaking good taste brings in literate readers by the hundreds! I'd put it in both Amazon AND B&N Charlie, why not?

And Charlie's back! And the "law won," hah? hahahahaha

And Ed's BACK!! Hi, Ed!

And everybody has brought such wonders to the table, the research (Ars Gratia Artis, ) eh, Barb? Marvelous~ And Megan! And Charlotte and Fran, this is, well, to coin a word from EF Benson, delicious! And Jim, as ever to the searing point!!

How was Arnold? I miss him, too!

And Sarah, that was neat, I thought. Concise and sharp! I can't add one thing to your reviews, they're all good.

Now, did anybody want to give it a rave??

Having just finished THE HOURS and MRS. DALLOWAY on my trip I can truly hope you all have read those things, as I sure will need your input, that's for sure.

Fran, when do YOU leave? Poor Fran can't get on or off the ships she has so many books along. Reminds me of somebody else whose luggage is always over the limit weight wise with books.

Jim is right in another thing, too, the marvelous job Charlie has done with this discussion. Did you all realize it was his first official discussion to lead?? It is. Those illustrations. That one today is exquisite, thanks so much, Charlie, it's been magic.

Now what else do you have in store for us???

Golly do any of you remember when we were hard pressed to chat even two weeks over a book? We've come a long way.

Did any of you notice in the new issue of The New Yorker magazine the big ad using a Geisha? Will scan it in but it will probably be Monday. It's interesting. Apparently there's a load of new interest, and Megan's article on the actual geisha interviewed was intriguing. What she said was what I had always heard: they are artists, not sexual things, but the book seems to indicate otherwise.

So, Sarah, DID you finish it?? Fess up! I had to beat myself to finish one of our July books, but wild horses wouldn't drag it out of me which one it was. BOY I can't WAIT to get to that discussion with this bunch!

I guess one thing that sort of ruined it for me was the realization that despite all the references to grand Oriental philosophy, etc., etc., in the end what she did was to deceive. She deceived Nobu, she deceived the Chairman's natural impulse to hide his own son into a trip to NYC, ugg ugg. I agree with Sarah. And so the wind bends the tree to the right and left...oh phooey. The character herself goes from empathetic to scheming, and I don't see anything good at all in sweet little round faced Pumpkin turning into another Hatsumomo, nope. There's no triumph or joy when the negative manage to temporarily claw their way to the surface, they'll drown soon enough but this reader felt cheated.

Ginny

Charles - you were wonderful!! I didn't realize it was your first official "lead." How fabulous were your graphics, your posts, and your moderating influence.

Yes, Ginny, I finished it, but grudgingly. I actually wasn't that disappointed in the ending (you all had prepared me - and I wasn't all that thrilled with the beginning or middle either so the ending wasn't that much of a contrast. Ok, stop Sarah; be good!!!

Looking so forward to the Hours and Mrs. D.

Also - if any of you are still here - please make sure to vote for your Booker prize winner in Prized Fiction - tonight's the last night to do so.

Charles....Thank you so much for being such a wonderful discussion leader. It is so much better to read with this group than reading the book on my own, and trying to find someone who will be open and honest about their opinions, plus having someone do such great research for us was a generous bonus.

Ginny I am glad you are home safely, and back with us to vote....What was your vote anyway? I guess I missed it.

George and I leave on July 5th to spend the evening at the Philadelphia airport to catch an early flight to Anchorage, Alaska where we will meet up with our son Ken and his girlfriend, Betsy. Then we will be on a bus for 5 days visiting, Denali National Park, Fairbanks, Seward, and Valdez before boarding our ship, the Ryndam of Holland America, for a 7 day cruise to Vancouver, Canada. That day we fly back home, arriving in Dover late on the evening of the 20th, I think. I am hoping to take a bunch of books with me, of course.

Speak to you soon.....Love, Fran

This book is nothing to get up in the middle of the night and rave about - but it did keep my interest until the last silly chapters. I'd give it a 6.

Eileen Megan

Thanks Charles - a supurb job - knowing you would be posting each day made me feel the vitality of this discussion and again the photos you posted were wonderful.

Fran, how marvelous, I'm going to Seattle and Vancouver, too, will miss you tho, don't leave unti the 29th. Am looking forward to it.

Oh rating? Well on a scale from 1-5 stars, I guess I would give Geisha a 3, because I did get swept up in it, and I did enjoy reading it, an easy read, not cumbersome or forced, very enjoyable. I did learn a lot which I hope is accurate, altho with the new thoughts coming out I'm beginning to wonder; and all in all I enjoyed it until the end, which was very unsatisfying. When you can put down a book with a sigh and say "Now THAT was a BOOK!" you know you have enjoyed greatness, and I'm not thinking that this one has it, quite.

Ginny

I think that I'd have to agree with Ginny about the rating of this book. It wasn't a "can't put it down" read but it wasn't a "can't get through it" read either. The discussion it generated here seemed to me to overshadow the story itself so maybe that was worth the effort of reading it. I learned more about Japan, Japanese customs and the historical background of geisha than I had expected to and have saved all of the conversations with links to the wonderful web sites Charles and Barbara posted. Thank you all for the enlightenment. So I'll give this book a 3!!

Ditto on a rating of three. I could definitely put this book down (and often did). Yes, I learned much about the Japanese culture. Currentely one of my reads is We Band of Angels which gives a different perspective on the Japanese male - as conquerer on Bataan and Corregidor rather than pampered businessman in a tea house. Charles, thank you for all the research material.

Maida,

Could you give us more info about We Band of Angels.

I couldn't locate it at the BN site.

Is it by a Japanese person(doesn't sound quite right)

Title sounds feminine- or am I wrong?

Jim,

We Band of Angels was written by Elizabeth M. Norman (Random House). I bought it from Amazon recently. It is an account of what happened to some 99 Army and Navy nurses who were caught in the fall of the Philippines and then were evacuated to Bataan and Corregidor before we surrendered. These mostly young women continued to perform their nursing duties under the most horrific conditions and almost constant shelling. It's a wonderful read!

Maida,

I think I was having web problems and couldn't find the book before.

it seems to have a web page of its own at

Band of Angels

A net friend of mine from SF area had an aunt who experienced something like that. She was interned in Manila during the war and at the very end after liberation the monastery where they had been taken for safety was shelled with more loss of life than had occurred during the three previous years.

She won't talk about it, but her story should be told, too.

I wonder if this is the group she was with. I will try to find the book in the library and read it.

Thanks for the lead

Jim,

Thanks much for the Angels web site; I've bookmarked it. Would love to know more about your friend who was interred in Manilla. When I reluctantly put the book down yesterday Wainwright had just surrendered to the Japanese and the next chapters deal with what happened to the nurses afterwards

The nonfullfillment of Memoirs... is keeping me dangling in mid air - help, help! My big question is "what do you think Golden was trying to say or accomplish with this story?"

Was all the action between the characters a past-up of a Sumi wrestling match? Charles did point out one encounter to be hatakikomi (The slap down!)

I believe we have all agreed the characters were not that developed and some disappeared without an explination and the other characters were all grey. Not a white hat among them, not even our heroine.

I can understand if this were a real Memoir there would be relationships that last only a small part of a life but, we would see the connection as to how they impacted the life and yes, the heroine sharing a memoir of life would be sharing all sides of her personality, the good and the bad. But then, that doesn't fit for me. Example; how did Satsu affect her life other then, she was a sister that was also victemized. Satsu escapes from a horrible situation and Chiyo gets into trouble as she attempts to find and then later attempts to escape with Satsu. All of this could have been said without Satsu. The only connection I can see is that Sayuri arranges her own escape some many years later and even at that, Sayuri's escape and future life is dependent on the Chairman not on her own pluck as Satsu's escape.

Is this whole book only about assulting our senses with another culture in another time, titilating at sexuality and the brutal training administered to represent 'Art' as the Geisha is to be understood? Is this a lefthanded attempt at investigative reporting?

What was this book all about?

I think Golden had a lot of knowledge he wanted to impart based on his academic background. This appeared to be the way to do it in a manner least likely to be challenged for accuracy. Because there was so much cultural information in the book, there were enough people who appreciated the novel for that, and who were willing to overlook the deficiencies in plot and character development, to make the novel a hit.

That book sounds just wonderful, and as soon as I finish with SeniorNet, and my modem is free I will dial up the library, on the computer no less, and see if they have the book there.

I am still unable to get The Hours since I am the 3rd hold, but I did get Helen Thomas's new book about Presidents she has known as UPI chief White House reporter. I know I will enjoy that a lot.

Speak to you soon.....Love, Fran

Some of the messages today really made me think more about Sayuri's relationship with her sister after the war, and once she was free to do as she wished. How come she didn't check up on her sister then? Or did she, and I have forgotten. To me that would be the natural thing to do. If I had family that I was concerned about, and hadn't seen for so many years I would do anything to see how they were making out.

Speak to you soon.....Love, Fran

Our library has the We Band of Angels but there is a waiting list.

maybe later some of us could discuss if somewhere here in the books section.

It wasn't a friend of mine who was at the internment camp but her aunt whom she has talked to about it.

My friend is going to read the book and see how it jibes with what she remembers of her aunt's recollections.

Maybe several of us can discuss it later.

What was Golden trying to do

Make money- no mystery there.

Jim make money for sure but, how on God's green earth did so many choose to read this? I assume they were getting something of value by reading it and recommending it so that it made the list as one of the 10 best sellers. What is everyone seeing as they read this that I am just not getting? I liked Sarah's answer explaining what he was trying to say - I am interpreting her post to mean, everything and nothing since he had a specialized education and threw open the doors to Japan. I am going to add in a very prevocative and salacious way. Are we so moved by provocative and salacious that we are satisfied with an ouline for a book with no thesis - ?

I want so desperatly to be told this or that was so valuable and that is why it made the best seller list. I want faith in the reader and not in dreamselling.

I got through to the library today, and they have 1 copy and 7 holds. That is worse than next month's book. If we can get a group together to read it, I may even break down and buy it. I am sure I would get a lot out of it.

Speak to you soon.....Love, Fran

I guess that I am a little late to add comments about Memiors but I found the book to be entertaining with interesting information about a culture I know very little about. I realize that the story itself was fiction but the information such as the accummulation of the kimonos, the pecking order of the geisha, etc. I found very interesting.

Of course, Barbara, there is a lot of junk on the best seller lists - but I understand your point. This book was seen as one of those best sellers that was supposed to be enriching, educational, literary.

My wife is reading Geisha now. She enjoys it. Says it's not War and Peace but she likes it.

It was popular because it is a good interesting read- Like lots of good things in life, however, it's better not to look at it too closely.

I hope she doesn't look at me any more closely than she is looking at Geisha.

But it really was a chick book- Where is Tom Wolfe now that we need him?

Maybe some of us can discuss Band of Angels down in the history discussion.

It seems to have fallen into lethargy lately.

Too bad- some good stuff coming along like Woodwards Shadows-

Not every book needs to be hashed over in a separate formal discussion.

There does seem to be a great deal of interest in the Band of Angels book, why not schedule it for the Fall, since it's so hard to get, and we can open our Fall Season with a bang??

Anybody want to take charge of leading that discussion? It seems to have plenty of interest!

NPAT!! From the Jersey Shore! Welcome!! It's never too late to give your opinion!

Just think, tho, of how difficult it is to actually teach the reader something without preaching, I must say Golden did that splendidly. Supposedly the big thing now with authors is to aim for: "I'm going along on an adventure, you come too...." kind of ambiance, and he did that splendidly. But the sister character, for one, is never followed thru with, that's absolutely right. It USED to be if you put characters in a book or things, there was a reason and you followed thru with it, not so today.

And yet, can we say our next two selections are more balanced? THE HOURS and MRS. DALLOWAY?? We shall see, I wonder if they make a movie of Geisha, if they will include a reunion with a sister.

I didn't think that Pumpkin's character was defined enough to warrant her turning like a worm into a bitter characterature?

Ginny

Jim,

If a Band of Angels discussion does materialize please let me know where to find it. I'm nearly through with the book and can't recommend it enough. I intend to give it to my Uncle Bert who served with Gen.Patton in the Battle of the Bulge (he refuses to discuss it).

Welcome...I agree with you I found many of the cultural information about Geishas extremely interesting. And how else would I have learned all that?

How would you rate the book on a scale of * to ***** stars. That is one to five stars, in case it doesn't show up too clearly.

Speak to you soon.....Love, Fran

I gave my scale rating of 6 for a scale of 10 - but if it's only a scale of 5, I'll have to change it to a 3 - that's for Charles if he is going to tally our votes.

Eileen Megan

The following review has been posted to Barnes and Noble (and should appear within three business days):

The June selection: SeniorNet Book Club Online – 3 Stars

A resounding, unanimous…3 Stars. A rather enjoyable, easy read that imparted a wealth of interesting cultural information. One learns the details and history of a Japanese sub-culture that shed some light, to the Western eye, on the Japanese mind. But does it really? Golden effortlessly takes the reader to Kyoto and we willingly go along. It’s like a free vacation (of the virtual variety) that passes the time pleasantly enough but in the end is unsatisfying, forgettable and leaves us curiously …unfulfilled. Did we see all the “must see” spots, and missed the “real” Japan? This is a book that we begin to resent, having asked too much of it. Things like, why this book? Why now?

The deficiencies in plot and character development (and their disappearance), the ‘Romance’ ending, lead us to ask: Why did we come here in the first place? Thanks for the tour but - time to get back to the “real” world.

I’d like to thank everyone for participating, posters and lurkers alike. It is the group of you that enrich the reading experience beyond its normal bounds. Thanks too, for all your kind comments, and a special thank you for the technical help offered by Jim Daisey, Pat Scott and the valued leadership of Ginny Anderson. Until the next time.

Charlie

Charles - love the review. I think it captures a lot of the sentiments expressed here

Charlie, you are fabulous, what a great thing! Why not post it in Amazon, too, why not? I love it and hope it brings us a million readers!!

Well done!!

And now for something completely different: Geishas take over the world!!

What do you make of this thing? hahahahah. It appears in the current issue of The New Yorker magazine? I'm sorry it's so large but you can't read it at 350 pixels. I can't decide whether it's a slap or a pat on the back! hahahahah

Ginny

Charles, excellent review, you captured perfectly the general sentiments of all the "Geisha" participants.

Eileen Megan

Oh Ginny - Geishas take over the world - nauseating!!

Charles perfect! "Charley I'm glad I knew ya".

Shoot Ginny is it tongue and cheek? Printed in the New Yorker it must be the dry humor of a left handed compliment. It acknowledges Golden having made his 15 minutes of fame now, lets see if he can parley that fame into something we can respect.

Dear Ginny,

I fell hook, line and sinker for that one. I will definitely have to check it out at the newsstand. Never again Absolut for me. In fact I will try to remember never to use that word again.

Dear Charles,

Thank you, thank you, thank you, for the great job you did running this discussion. You made it interesting and fun, and I did learn a lot I would not have. You are our 5 Stars that we were searching for.

Speak to you soon.....Love, Fran

Charlie's review is UP!! And it looks splendid, too, just splendid!

Go look: Geisha Book Review

Ginny

Ginny, thanks for the ad. That was teriffic. Makes me think of…….

That unforgettable moment, oh so many years ago, even before I was an apprentice. I had come in to the little room just off the kitchen, where we maids were able to gather what little scraps of food that were left by Mother, Auntie and Granny. I’m afraid I surprised, and rather startled Tamiko, who held a bottle of Absolut, the vodka running down her chin, dropping pearl by pearl onto her kimono. She craved it, she said, and begged me not to tell Mother.

HAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!

Check out our SeniorNet review at B&N. It's up and right on top (for awhile) right ahead of all the 5-Star reviews!! Now I'll go post it to Amazon.

Charles - our (your) review is so literate and balanced. I hope they leave it up top.

Cleaning out my Japanese files and found this - we have been asking is she or isn't she - Well her history says YES, but, by Law no

In the Taishô and early Shôwa periods, the geisha was transformed into a symbol of traditional values. Historically, however, the geisha had been considered as great a threat to the social order as the moga of the 1920s and 1930s.

During the Edo period (1615-1867), the government closely supervised entertainment involving women. Prostitution was legal, but licensed, taxed, and otherwise controlled. In the early Edo period, Shimabara in Kyoto and Yoshiwara in Edo were officially designated areas of prostitution in which the trade could be contained and regulated.

Women were bought by houses of prostitution and could only regain their freedom after paying their debts to the master of the house. In a culture where women were expected to sacrifice themselves on behalf of their parents and husbands, the selling of daughters into prostitution by impoverished families was often condoned. Poorly nourished, prostitutes suffered from a number of deceases and generally died young in the cramped and unsanitary entertainment quarters.

Geisha were only one of the groups of professional women living in the "pleasure districts." A geisha, as first defined in the middle of the eighteenth century, was literally an "arts person," a woman with training in the arts of music, dance, and conversation. She would flatter her customers, engage them in piquant conversation, and flirt with them. These geisha seem regal as they engage in scholarly accomplishments—playing the koto, playing go, and practicing calligraphy as well as painting (a skill once associated with high-minded Chinese gentleman).

By law, true geisha were prohibited from engaging in sex with customers. In reality, however, many did dispense sexual favors to chosen clients or a special patron, while some prostitutes pretended to be geisha.

As the geisha increased in popularity, she became an icon of the flourishing merchant-class (chônin) culture with growing influence. In life, she represented the avant-garde in fashion, speech, and style in general; however, the geisha was a political and cultural symbol that had only a tenuous connection with the reality of these women.

Literally bought and sold, geisha were part of the merchants' world of money. More importantly, however, she symbolized the merchants' world of play, specifically the realm of the body. As a sexual commodity or, at the very least, a sexualized image, the geisha contravened the lofty, Confucian ethics central to the military Tokugawa government, specifically working for the national good instead of for the individual gain. Moreover, as a leader in style, she was emblematic of cultural change at a time when those in power venerated the past. In short, the geisha was seen as a subversive threat to the status quo.

Despite her corrupting influence, the geisha reinforced traditional gender roles by conducting herself in accordance with governmental restrictions. She was controlled by the government, forced into special districts, registered, and taxed. Most critically, the essence of the geisha's existence was fulfilling the desires of men. Sensitive and responsive to her customers in a manner considered inappropriate for wives, the geisha served as an outlet for male fantasy and libido.

With this role, the geisha allowed for the smooth continuation of the system of utilitarian marriage. By the early Shôwa period, the traditional aspect of the geisha's dual nature was emphasized both as a contrast and as an antidote to the rise of the modern girls (Geisha represents gambling and changed her traditional hair style in the 1920s and is labled a 'Modern Girl')