Middlemarch ~ George Eliot ~ Part I ~ 9/05 Export

Cover design of Boston edition of Middlemarch, adapted from the original serial publication

"George Eliot's ambition - to create a world and portray a whole community--tradespeople, middle classes, country gentry--in the rising fictional provincial town of Middlemarch, circa 1830. Vast and crowded, rich in narrative irony and suspense, "Middlemarch" is richer still in character and in its sense of how individual destinies are shaped by and shape the community." Powell's Book Review

Book Four ~ Three Love Problems

For Your Consideration

Oct. 24 - 30 ~ Chapters XXXVIII - XLII
Oct. 31 - Nov. 6 ~ Chapters XLIII - XLVII

Chapters Chapters XXXVIII - XLII

1. What motivates Dorothea's uncle Brooke to run for Parliament? Do you think he fits the definition of a "retrogressive," which the Trumpet has labelled him? Does he stand a chance of winning the nomination in Middlemarch?

2. Does Will's ardor cool after his conversation with Dorothea about her beliefs and views on good and evil? What were your own reactions to what she told him? Do you hear echos of the Prologue in her speech?

3. How do the repercussions of Featherstone's will draw the Garths, Fred, Farebrother, Bustrode, Brooke and Rigg into Eliot's intricate web interlacing the desire for property with the need for land reform? What do you think of Rigg at this point?

4. For what reason does Casaubon ask about his health and physical condition now? What is Dr. Lydgate able to tell him with the aid of his new and improved Laennec stethoscope? How will learning of this prognosis affect Casaubon's course of action?

5. Was her husband's chilly, wooden response to Dorothea's attempt to take his arm, understandable, considering the news he had just received from Dr. Lydgate? Did you find her angry reaction a bit self-centered? Why did she wait up for him, and put her hand in his as the curtain came down on Book IV? ?

Related Links: Middlemarch - on-line text - complete novel // Search the Text!// Biography of Mary Anne Evans,(George Eliot)// a REALLY Comprehensive Biography of Marian Evans //19th c. Coventry/Middlemarch - streets & buildings // Walking tours of Coventry and Warwickshire// Spon End, Coventry // 19th century Politics - Robert Peel // First Reform Bill - 1832 // Victorian England // Victorian Times // Posting urls from other websites//

Discussion Leaders: JoanK ~ JoanP ~ Maryal(Deems)

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Have your tickets ready... round trip, so hold on to them. We're all planning to come back together, right? (Unless you like it so much you decide to stay behind in Middlemarch!

Just a few reminders about the natives. These Middlemarchers have secrets - if you have met them before, please don't spill what you know. We'll probably all view them a bit differently, based on who we are, and who we know. We plan to go slowly- there will be a DISCUSSION schedule posted each week. Notice that this is NOT a reading schedule. If you have read ahead, it will be difficult for you NOT to mention what is to come in later chapters, but we ask you to refrain from doing so, out of consideration for those who are reading the small font in small doses.

If you think of this discussion as a Conversation, everyone will be happy. There are several questions in the heading - topics for discussion over the next 10 days. (a few extra days on these chapters to allow for the Labor Day weekend.) Please don't treat them as essay questions to answer all at once. They are just there for "conversation"...and don't need to be answered at all if you want to talk about something else.

There's only one other request...that you read quickly through SeniorNet Books' Participation Guidelines, especially if this is your first discussion with us. The operative words here are "cordial conversation" - even when facing off - wear those white gloves!

This is going to be such fun - so happy you caught the train! Welcome Aboard!

Before we pull into town, can we examine the Prologue? What did you think of that killer first sentence? What does it say to you? (Can you diagram it?) Why has George Eliot used the story of St. Theresa's life to set the tone for Middlemarch?

Let me add my welcome to Joan's. I've just read the first five chapters online (my book is at home and I'm at work. Something is always in the wrong place), and I'm looking forward to our discussion.

I found that it took me the first chapter to fall back into the rhythm of reading a Victorian novel and then very much enjoyed myself.

Everyone hang on and heeeer we go. All aboard!!

Maryal/Deems

GOOD MORNING!! Well, the day is finally here: the train for Middlemarch is waiting to leave. Everything is aboard for our comfort: tea, watercress and cucumber sandwiches, scones, muffins, cookies, white linen tablecloths and napkins. The only thing missing is YOU!! So climb aboard and take a seat.

I’m really looking forward to this discussion. We have a great book, and a great group of people discussing it. We will learn a lot about a small English village in a period I don’t know anything about: the time just before Queen Victoria took the throne. But we will learn even more about human nature. For while the time is strange, the people aren’t. I’m willing to bet every one of us will find someone we know between the covers of this book – maybe even ourselves.

Oh, scones! What could be more perfect. Do we have jam to go with them? We can eat our scones and muffins and sip our tea while we gossip about Miss Brooke.

Babi

I've been pacing back and forth at the station, waiting for you gals to arrive. Thank goodness you're here. Hope all the other ladies arrive soon.

Thanks for the guidelines- I am printing those and will read them, JoanP.

Just a word before I comment on the prologue- ok a few words, I mean- I am new to MIDDLEMARCH, new to Eliot, and new to the politics, etc of that time. This will be my first group here so I'm still learning. If I step out of line in any way- feel free to reel me back in. That said-

When I opened the book a few weeks back and started to read the prelude, I had thoughts much like those posted here by another gal who thought "what have I gotten myself into"? I had to read the first paragraph over and over, and finally gave it overnight to rest and came back to it. I do now understand it but it didn't come straight to me, that's for sure. Truth be told, writing like this, which seems to be deliberately obtuse can often set my teeth on edge and make me feel I'm being manipulated. Who speaks like this? Were only the very educated reading this book at the time? And yes, that old bumper sticker "Eschew obfuscation" came to mind.

{No, I cannot diagram the sentence - but I'll watch!

}

After several rereads, what I got out of the prelude was this- St Theresa lived an epic life. Many after her would have *liked* to have led epic lives, but because of societal constraints, they couldn't. Whoever is speaking in the prelude appears to be setting themselves up as that "cygnet among the ducklings" who longs to make a difference in her world, but whose world prevents her.

Since I know we all want to "do the done thing" I submit for your perusal proper rules of Victorian etiquette inre travelling:

http://www.logicmgmt.com/1876/etiquette/traveling.htm

I am so glad to get started on this book with the group. This book is dense, so packed with historical references, reference to writings and thoughts of the day, characters’ thoughts, and even a plot (LOL), which I find is sometimes hard to discern with all of the other “stuff” surrounding it.

I was initially put off by the Prelude. I read it very thoroughly and expect to come back to it many times during my reading of the novel. I am sure that the entire meaning of it is not clear to me at this point. I expect that St. Theresa and Dorothea are going to lead parallel lives, or at least have similarities in their lives. I wonder if other characters, yet to be introduced, will provide contrasts? I am also curious about the martyrdom mentioned in the first sentence, wondering if Dorothea will become a martyr (literally or figuratively) for her cause.

Just this morning, while thinking about how I enjoyed the quotes, etc. that introduce each chapter, and how I have been trying to tie the meaning of the quote to the content of the chapter, I realized that the prelude probably serves as the initial “quote” for the entire book.

I will do a separate post on the quotes at the beginning of the chapters. I hope some of you are interested in exploring those with me.

Hi Everybody...I just barely was able to board the train, throwing up my travel case and with one hand on the train handrail and the other in the hand of a very strong conductor have made it.

Will be picking up a copy of the book from local library today to have with me when I'm not using the online version.

Back anon...Alliemae

Babi, the early bird! And Scootz was here before we "unlocked" the station! Alliemae, you're not late. (We'll linger on the platform a little longer waiting for Anna to take her seat in the caboose!) That's one of the real disadvantages of travelling without a man who loves to show how strong he is as he hefts those bags into the overhead rack! Scootz - loved the rules of etiquette! As a group of ladies travelling without male companionship, we'd better stick close together!

Laura, in the endnotes of the Barnes & Noble edition there's an entry - saying that unless the author is noted, George wrote the quotes. Yes, let's explore the relationship between the quotes preceding each chapter with the contents! Great idea!

You make an excellent point - "the Prelude probably serves as the initial “quote” for the entire book." And if that proves true, wouldn't it follow that other characters in the book may suffer the same "martyrdom" since Miss Brooke makes appearances in only a portion of the book?

Scootz, that "cygnet among the ducklings" who longs to make a difference in her world" - who are we describing here? I had the same reaction that you did when reading the first sentence. I've read some reviews published shortly after the first volumes appeared - with much the same reaction. Will go look for them. These were educated Victorians who were having the same trouble with Eliot's style. I'm sure the Prof will be along shortly to diagram...to parse the first sentence. Shall we hunt for the subject(s) and predicate(s) to start?

That cygnet is, I believe, both Eliot and Dorothea.

Here is that infamous first sentence:

Who that cares much to know the history of man, and how the mysterious mixture behaves under the varying experiments of Time, has not dwelt, at least briefly, on the life of Saint Theresa, has not smiled with some gentleness at the thought of the little girl walking forth one morning hand-in-hand with her still smaller brother, to go and seek martyrdom in the country of the Moors?

I amd going to take a stab that WHO is the subject, HAS NOT DWELT and HAS NOT SMILED is the compound predicate. Big guess here...I haven't diagrammed a sentence since high school. I hope we're not deducting points for incorrect answers.

The library called yesterday---my reserved copy of Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince was ready to be picked up. How can I possibly hide HP inside of Middlemarch and read both of them at the same time! What to do! What to do! And if I am lugging these two enormous books with me how can I hold a cup of tea and a scone or two? And all of that with white gloves on! Oh, my!

REMINDER: For newbies and oldies---don't forget to hit the Subscribe button so you'll keep coming back here.

Here I am in Bromley Train station near London, waiting for the next one to take me to Victoria Station, after a few minutes it is slowly approaching, it stops, I board through those individual compartments instead of through the front of the car, it seems so strange to me and I sit down. To my eyes it looks like a 'vintage' car with wrought ironwork on the back of the seats and a grilled shelf overhead to hold small parcels, I put my coat up there and listen to people talking in my 6 seat compartment. They are all regular commuters going to work. Their British accent is a very appealing to my Canadian ear.

The train starts and I watch the country side roll by. Lots of industry as we approach London but the sing-song of the train wheels muffle the outside noises, it's so nice not to be driving, I can enjoy the scenery.

I spent many happy moments on trains in England like this one. Middlemarch reminds me of that as I read the first pages.

JAM FOR THE SCONES!! I knew I forgot something! I'll be right back!!

I'm back, with lots of jam.

SCOOTZ and LAURA: For people who didn’t understand the Prelude, you did an awfully good job of summarizing it. Did anyone have a different reaction to it? Can anyone help me to understand the reasons Eliot gives as to why the modern Saint Theresas become “founder(s) of nothing”?

PHYLL: But you came anyway. Great!” What miserable timing” is right. Can Eliot compete with Harry Potter? We’ll all be waiting anxiously to find out. Don’t worry about your white gloves: I brought along extra pairs in case someone spills jam on them.

ELOISE: Welcome to our train! I don’t know why those old compartment trains are so romantic, but they are! Now, apparently they’re being replaced by American style cars. (No one told Rowlings. All of Harry Potter’s trains have compartments).

I’m glad SCOOTZ reminded us of our proper manners. But I think we’ll have to forget this one: “Gentlemen will commence conversations” since so far, we don’t seem to have any gentlemen.

The tea is hot. Let’s have some, while we wait for the others.

of all kinds. When I see something called "Prelude"--if it isn't a piece of music--my teeth get itchy. Especially when it is a Victorian novel and when I see something clearly marked "Chapter One."

One major problem I have with Victorians is their apparent desire to SPEAK PROFUNDITIES, to sum up in general terms, a GREAT TRUTH.

Since I am of the camp who believes that Great Truths are hard to come by, I am alarmed when I see them winging their way toward me.

Scootz--You have the whole point of the Prelude summed up. Eliot herself could have done this, but then she wouldn't have had so many words. And the silks wouldn't have rustled so.

Today I think writers assume that it is a bad idea to put the audience off with Great Truths right up front. Profundities have to be earned.

My summation of the Prelude: Not all women are lucky enough to be St. Theresa; some are born swans surrounded by ducks. They have stories too.

Maryal

According to the introduction: "The philosophical core of Middlemarch lies in Eliot's exploration of the three conceptual universes at the forefront of her century, two representing the very crises that were ravaging the age, one that promised in her view a possible resolution to them. These are religion, science, and art."

Perhaps as we read through the novel it might be interesting to keep in mind how religion, science, and art effect us in today's world. Do they have as much influence today as they did in Eliot's time? I think by focusing on these we can relate better to the characters and the situations they will encounter. At times this novel can be overwhelming with its plots and sub-plots and various themes.

Chapter One: The novel is more focused on upper- and middle-class people than anyone of the lower financial and social status. Throughout the novel appropriate gender roles are represented and commented upon. Celia is more representative of the proper woman in this period, with Dorothea embodying many less desirable qualities. People are supposed to conform to certain social ideals and norms, but Eliot from the beginning of the novel seems to be questioning this very idea.

In the middle of the night while the train was idling in the station, I climbed on top of the caboose with my knapsack, bottle of water and bungie cords to keep me from rolling off. Will somebody smuggle me half of a leftover scone from time to time? I've been lurking and reading away, and I can't stop laughing and groaning. Already have many reactions, so I hope I can do more than lurk and peek in the caboose window once in a while! Does etiquette require that I be arrested at the next station, or will you kindly pretend you don't know I'm still on top (I hope!)?

That is very helpful, Scrawler.

JoanK asked, “Can anyone help me to understand the reasons Eliot gives as to why the modern Saint Theresas become “founder(s) of nothing”?”

Could it be that people of the time portrayed in the novel spent a lot of time on thoughts?

This idea reminds me of Deems comment, “One major problem I have with Victorians is their apparent desire to SPEAK PROFUNDITIES, to sum up in general terms, a GREAT TRUTH.”

Because they spent so much time on these thoughts, they spent less time on doing practical things. I found a quote from The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001-05 at www.bartleby.com/65/th/TheresaA.html that claims “St. Theresa combined intense practicality with the most rarefied spirituality.”

My initial impression of Dorothea is that she is not very practical and spends a lot of time on thoughts. Thus, she could be setting herself up to be a “founder of nothing,” despite her desire to do great things.

I am finding that even though I normally do not read more than one book at a time, I actually want to do so while reading Middlemarch. I am trying to "balance" Middlemarch with lighter, easier, more straightforward reads. You may find Harry Potter to serve the same purpose for you.

I just boarded the train.

Currently I am in Chapter 2. At this point I find I don't like Dorothea very much because she is being holier than thou'.

Even though this is within the first six chapters, this post contains info from further into the reading. Please beware if that matters to you.

Joank asked : Can anyone help me to understand the reasons Eliot gives as to why the modern Saint Theresas become “founder(s) of nothing”?

Joan, in the prelude, Eliot seems to be saying that many who came after St Theresa also wanted to lead epic lives, lives of great works. But in her (Eliot's) own provincial life, she sees this as being impossible because of an absence of a "coherent social faith and order" that would enable women to do this. They have no access to politics or social works. So, they become founders of nothing. This is what Dorothea strives to do- accomplish great works. So far, she could have done that with the one fellow in his helping with the cottages, but she decides to go with the man of religion and soul. Go figure!

I almost missed this train! I stopped in a lovely tea shop next to the station to indulge in a cream tea and sat far too long over the warm scones with strawberry jam and clotted cream! After a mad dash for the train I was extremely lucky to secure a window seat in a first class compartment.I've read the first 5 chapters and my heart goes out to Dorothea. She is so young, has so much talent, such grand ideas, and is embarking with no guidance from anyone on the wrong path. She's bound to be smothered. I must think lots more about the prelude! There are several "Joan"s I see. My full name is too much - let me be JoanR

I can hardly believe that no one has mentioned crumpets yet. I haven't had one in ages but could go for one right now!

joanr- I'm interested that Dorothea has made you feel sorry for her. She's pretty strong -minded, but you just see how she is looking at it all with rose colored glasses. Whatever is she thinking going with a 45 year old man, with her only 18? Is she depending on his maturity to make her life somehow great? Does she i,magine that her great works will occur through osmosis?

Tea (i) and (/i) Crumpets!! How nice. Having been very close to a Victorian Great Grandmother and my own Nana I loved her book shelves. That is where I first met George Elliot. Then I read Mary-Ann's biography and can not forget the picture of her, with dark long curls and her white ruffled dress. This because I had already formed a picture in my 10 year old mind of George Elliot in a Blue Waistcoat and tight fawn trousers that was the picture of one of Nana's relatives from the early 1800.'s. So it was that I first learned that women often had to deceive in order to publish in a Man's World.

These are old friends but it has been a long long time since I have visited them so I am off to begin reading the on line text. Hello to old friends here in the discussion too. Fae

Good heavens! Look who have joined us! For heaven sake, Jo, come off the caboose roof and sit here like a lady! Ma foi, is that Fae with you? And another Joan - JoanR...you just missed our Joan-filled discussion of Shaw's St. Joan - but you are here with us now, and that's what matters! Welcome, all three! This just keeps getting bettern'better with new friends and old pals gathering for this merry ride.

Back with a few questions for you...such interesting posts!

Have you wondered why Eliot used St. Theresa in the prelude - she was quite familiar with specific references to her life and her desire to free the Moors. Maryal found this REALLY Comprehensive Biography of Marian Evans - too much to read all at once, but it's in the header under Related Links for future reference. Here we learn that

"In December 1866 Marian and Lewes visited Spain... both had long wished to see Granada and the Alhambra. While on this visit, Marian had the idea of writing about the expulsion from Spain of the Moors and the Gypsies in the 1490s, and the result was The Spanish Gypsy (1868). The Gypsy of the title, Fedalma, has to choose between duty to her race and love of a Catholic duke....

She could not know that her next work, an amalgam of two stories begun and abandoned, would be acclaimed her masterpiece. It was the result of a brilliant idea to knit together her story about the arrival of a young doctor in a midlands town shortly before the Reform Act of 1832 and a second story, ‘Miss Brooke’, about the marriage choice of an idealistic young woman of the landed gentry."

Is there a connection here? I think George Eliot spent much effort on the prelude to provide the keynote, to set the theme for what is to come - How community shapes and constricts ones' life; how one handles the disappointments. Didn't we all start out thinking we were going to do something special that we were going to leave a mark on the world so that we would be remembered? Or not? Were some of us more like Celia? Dorothea started out as did St. Theresa...I like the quote on "the most rarefied spirituality," Laura. Maybe none of us here started out with such lofty, goals, but didn't we all want to do some good, something "noble" with our lives? Maybe none of us are as practical as a St. Theresa.

Scrawler, who wrote the introduction to the edition you are reading, please? I agree with you or with the author - it would be a good idea to consider how our own environment affected us...religion, science, and art in order to understand better they affected those in Middlemarch. For example, did they confine, constrict, inspire...?

Scootz... Eliot herself the cygnet, I like that...and Dorothea too. Is that why some of you don't like her - she's not like the other ducks in a row? What's interesting to me is that Dorothea's holier than thou-ness is turning some of you off and yet some of you sympathize with her desire to do something noble with her life. Why do you suppose that is?

I am here too but don't have much to say yet as I have not read much of the book yet. I did read the prelude and am currently reading part I. Have had too much on my mind to get much of the book read. I did not want to miss this train trip though. I am looking forward to getting to know many of you. Of course there are some here that I know quite well. I know that I am going to love becoming acquainted with the people of Middlemarch.

This will be a wonderful trip I am sure.

Joan Grimes

Now, I have a bone to pick with Mr. A. S. Byatt! (Q.2)

Why is it "greedy" to "want to use their minds to the full, to discover something, to live on a scale where their life felt valuable from moment to moment."?

We should want to use our minds to the full. Aren't all of us doing that even now? Why not want to feel one's life is valuable? This is being greedy?!! Fie!

I do so sympathize with Dorothea's longing to have a fuller life, to do something of significance, beyond the restrictions of her times. At the same time I wish so heartily her mother was still alive, for Dorothea is so naive, so innocent, so very good at seeing only what she wants to see.

Celia is far more realistic and sensible. Dorothea, however, has that fatal flaw of seeing the contrary views of others as simply evidence of their spiritual inferiority. Poor Dorothea is going to have to learn the hard way.

Babi

Yes the educated would be the only ones reading books. Lots of people would be illiterate still.

Carolyn

FAITHR: I love the picture of Eliot in blue waistcoat and fawn trousers. What was your reaction when you found out that she was a woman?

JOANG, CAROLYN (KIWI LADY): WELCOME!! Don’t feel behind, we are going very slowly – you’ll soon catch up. Good point about literacy: Eliot was definitely writing for an upper and middle class audience. And so far, all the characters we’ve seen are either upper or middle class, as SCRAWLER pointed out. I think this may change. (WELCOME BACK SCRAWLER

But within the upper and middle class, Eliot is extremely sharp-eyed about differences in social status that to us seem minute but to the characters are very real. Keep an eye on this as we go along. Which seems more important in fixing these character’s place in society: birth, education, or money?

Of course, as SCRAWLER said, one of the most important things in determining what opportunities these characters have is gender. We have already seen much of Eliot’s feelings about gender roles in the first 50 pages. What ARE Eliot’s feelings toward gender roles? Are they consistent?

I love the answers I got to my question about the causes of the latter-day St. Theresa’s failure. SCOOTZ points out that Eliot says an epic life is impossible because of an absence of a "coherent social faith and order" that would enable women to do this. She also notes that Dorothea is depending on her husband’s life to make her life great (by osmosis). BABI points out that Dorothea is so young and has no guidance toward the right path. BABI points out that Dorothea has that fatal flaw of seeing the contrary views of others as simply evidence of their spiritual inferiority. (It is a little hard to learn that way, isn’t it). Finally LAURAD says they simply spent too much time on Great Truths (I love that!). We are early in the game. We will see how these factors play out (or even if Dorothea does fail).

Meanwhile, some of us (including me) think that Dorothea is too holier-than-thou. Others really like her and feel sorry for her (also including me -- no one ever accused me of being too consistent). Is this simply a difference of opinion, or is there something in the book that leads us to different views?

I see I’ve asked way too many questions. I can’t help it – this great novel and great discussion simply seem to make ideas pop and boil. Just ignore any or all that don't appeal to you -- we do have ten days on this part. We don't have to do it all today.

Some nuts and bolts: if any of you haven't gotten their books yet, we found that some editions are hard on the eyes (Norton, Oxford) Both Barnes & Noble and Penguin are OK (The preface to Penguin tells you what happens to all the characters. If you don't want to know, skip it).

Do any of you need to know how to use "check subscriptions"? If so, let me know.

Finally: how do we get JO off that roof and into the car?

Hi all. I'm so excited to be part of this. I'll check in with some of the impressions the Prelude makes on me. It seems to promise a great deal. We are, it seems to say, to read about exceptional people resolving to do great things. The role model, holy cow!, is Saint Theresa herself, the most practical and the most spiritual of all women. Despite the setbacks of 'domestic reality' (a very suggestive phrase) she did go on to reform her monastic order and to write an autobiography of her spiritual life which is practically without equal in mystical writing. 'She was not the last of her kind' writes Eliot. Indeed, how can we forget our modern Mother Theresa? Also a blessed saint.

Eliot seems to suggest that we will be hearing about others who dreamed dreams, but failed at realizing them. Why they failed is also suggested. We are to read about mistakes made in matching opportunities with what it takes. We are to read about women finding their way 'with dim lights and tangled circumstance'. (reall the biblical virgins without their lamps) Their struggles will seem inconsistent and formless. But guided, nevertheless, by vague ideals and conflicting common yearnings. 'Blundering lives'! Striving to overcome feminine incompetence. 'Heart-breaks and sobs after an unattained goodness.'

Not for Eliot's readers 'the many-volumed romances of chivalry and the social conquests of brilliant girls.' This will be, it seems, a realistic look at human lives, both men and women in the changing world of 19c Middlemarch, England. Eliot, I believe, is promising a great deal with her Prelude. Perhaps she is setting the parameters for herself with this statement. Perhaps she is giving the reader the key to all that follows. Flora

I climbed down that permanently-attached ladder and JoanP held the window open for me. I'm a bit grimy, but safe, thank you, JoanK! I'll wash up and change to more civilized garb (if I can find any in my knapsack). I'll be tidy and polite when I join the gathering tomorrow. Not sure where to begin, but I will, anyway!

This is the fourth time in my life I have tried to read Middlemarch, but the humor this time - tongue in cheek irony - is excellent - maybe I was too young when I read it before.

I think it is irony or perhaps I have been exposed in San Francisco to too much post modern readings and find it everywhere. In any case, it both amuses me and ties me Eliot as a follow accomplice.

I've only begun and this is my first time in this group, hello to all.

JO: WHEW. If your white gloves got dirty, I have some extras.

DAY TRIPPER: what an excellent summary! I love the way she puts it, don't you.

So you are familiar with Saint Theresa. Could you tell us a little more.

BBCESANA: HELLO to you to. I tried to read Middlemarch when I was too young, too. Isn't it great how many things get better as we get older.

Find chairs, you all and I'll put on a fresh pot of tea.

Hi, folks! I'm just hopping aboard. I struggled through the Prelude with a sinking heart. (Doesn't that sound sort of Victorian?!!) It took me awhile to adjust to the language after just finishing the new Harry Potter.

Right off the bat, I didn't know anything about St. Theresa, so important in the Prelude. I found some interesting info. There are several different St. Theresa's. Our book refers to St. Teresa of Avila in Spain. An article I read (see link below) relates the story which is mentioned in the first sentence of the Prelude.

"Her [Theresa's] courage and enthusiasm were readily kindled, an early example of which trait occurred when at the age of 7 she left home with her brother Rodrigo with the intention of going to Moorish territory to be beheaded for Christ, but they were frustrated by their uncle, who met the children as they were leaving the city and brought them home..."

http://www.karmel.at/eng/teresa.htm

Sounds in the Prelude like we may be reading about a variety of Victorian women including, perhaps, a saint with a passionate nature and ardor who seeks fulfillment through a "life beyond self" but whose good deeds do not go down in history.

The life of a saint cannot be an easy thing.

Marni

Can anyone explain to me what all this is about Brooke "standing for Middlemarch"? And why are others so upset about that prospect? I'm clueless here.

SCOOTZ, I would guess that 'standing for Middlemarch' means he was proposing to run for political office, presumably representing Middlemarch in the House of Commons. Considering what a masterful grasp of elocution Mr. Brooke has, I can see why everyone would be upset. (That, of course, is sarcasm.) Of course, there may be other reasons as well for their not approving the notion.

You know the part I found hardest to believe is Dorothea's blindness to Casaubon' physical appearance. Aren't young girls naturally drawn to admiration of fine-looking young men?

But on looking carefully at what she actually sees, I realize how cleverly Eliot has explained it. The graying hair and sunken eyes remind her of the highly esteemed John Locke. The pallor is becoming to a 'student', and is as 'different as possible' from the ruddiness of the unwelcome Sir James Chattam. The "balanced sing-song neatness" of his speech is a happy contrast to Mr. Brooke's "scrappy sloveliness". And only "people of a certain sort" would be so crass as to notice the two moles with hairs on them.

Ah, "none so blind as they who will not see".

Babi

You know the part I found hardest to believe is Dorothea's blindness to Casaubon' physical appearance. Aren't young girls naturally drawn to admiration of fine-looking young men?

Ok, not to be too unkind, but I wonder if Eliot, (herself not exactly a raging beauty), modelled Dorothea after herself and thus since she herself could not hope to land a handsome man, but only a highly educated one, had to make Dorothea that way, too. It certainly boggles my mind that she is attracted to a man so much older than she is. We are supposed to believe that she's attracted to his mind and soul, but to me that only makes sense in light of what I just said about Eliot herself.

And yes, of course love is blind, and when we're young we see only what we want to see. She's not the first to make a mistakek where this is concerned. But, I was not so much disbelieving of her attraction to Casaubon as I was of her extreme, really extreme, reactions *against* Chettam. I couldn't understand why she disparaged him so strongly.

Good morning early birds! Before moving into Chapter I, I'd like to take a minute to comment on some of yesterday afternoon's posts which really helped to explain the implications of the Prelude.

Welcome Jo! Glad to see that you have cleaned up your act and joined the "ladies" in the coach; JoanG, always happy to have your company (come over here and sit in the "Joan" coach - and bbc, a special "newcomer welcome" - your comment on "irony" caused me to consider Eliot's use of it in the Prelude regarding St. Theresa as "founder of nothing".

Perhaps the saint's accomplishments meant "nothing" in the eyes of the world - compared to the planned martyrdom she and her brother had earlier attempted. But was her life really a "failure" - in anyone's eyes? Is the term used with irony? As FLora pointed out, she reformed an order of nuns and was "practically without equal in mystical writing." Is this "failure"? Perhaps the road wasn't easy for Theresa - "'Heart-breaks and sobs after an unattained goodness.'- but wasn't goodness attained after all?

As Marni writes - Theresa's good deeds to attain goodness did not go down in history. I'm thinking they MUST have been recognized by her community.

Is recognition of her noble deeds by the community what motivates Dorothea? The same way young Theresa planned martyrdom? (Was it you, Flora, who mentioned Mother Theresa - a woman unfettered by the world community who continued working tirelessly with the poor, sick, diseased...using the adulation and outpouring of support to further her ministry. No sobbing after an unattained goodness for this Theresa!)

From the Prelude I think we can anticipate an awakening for Dorothea, an adjustment based on the confines of her community. Aren't you curious to find out how she channels her youthful desire to do something fine and noble with her life? Will she soldier on as Mother Theresa, marching to her own drummer, or will she temper her ambitious plans, as did St. Theresa and seek personal "goodness" rather than public adulation? Flora - "Perhaps she is giving the reader the key to all that follows..."

As we begin Chapter I, let's consider the quote which introduces it - as Laura suggested we do yesterday. "Since I can do no good because a woman,
Reach constantly at something near it." The Maid's Tragedy
Oh dear...is there tragedy in store for Dorothea? Is it a tragic waste for her to marry the decaying Casaubon as she "reaches for something near it?" Did you notice the number of adjectives used to describe the pallor of the man? (How do you remember the details? Do you underline, make notes, reread?) Surely he will not be long for the world. Isn't that the implication? Will he die before fathering a son who will inherit uncle's money? Dorothea clearly is not interested in his physical attributes as Babi and Scootz are noting this morning. Why is that?

I'm interested on how and where Dorothy formed her "peculiar" ideas. The two girls were not shaped by the Middlemarch community - living here with their bachelor uncle for only a year. Though very young, not yet twenty, Dorothea came to Tipton Grange with her attitudes already formed elsewhere. Do you remember reading that the sisters came to Middlemarch from Lausanne? educated perhaps by nuns (predominantly Catholic at this time) - which would describe Dorothea's "peculiar Papist behavior" and attitudes.

From that environment she is expected to marry someone in this provincial community - a place in which she is considered to be an outsider. She is well connected and good looking, something Eliot repeats on a number of occasions.

I've some questions on the "Catholic issue" mentioned here - and I think it relates to your question this morning, Scootz, concerning the possibility that Brooke will run for election - as a Liberal Whig. We have to figure out what that means to conservative (?) Middlemarch. What do we know about the politics of the time? I have a B&N end note that refers to this, but need more of an explanation, hopefully from you...

"Robert Peel had been opposed to emancipation of Catholics - but in 1828 had shifted his views when Catholic sympathizer Daniel O'Connell was elected to Parliament."

Now, can anyone clarify the "emancipation of Catholics" (have we encountered any Catholics in Middlemarch?) and then can anyone explain on what side were the Whigs and maybe that will answer Scootz's question on Uncle Brooke's intentions "to stand for Middlemarch."

Go to it! What a super group we have assembled here! I'll just get out of your way...

Re: "As Marni writes - Theresa's good deeds to attain goodness did not go down in history. I'm thinking they MUST have been recognized by her community."

I wasn't referring to St. Theresa when I was talking about good deeds not going down in history. St. Theresa's deeds DID go down in history. She became a saint officially. Eliot is talking about women who were born after St. Theresa, leading up to the women in our story, Dorothea in particular, who want to lead saintly lives and live beyond themselves by helping others, but whose good deeds go unrecognized.

As Eliot says in paragraph 2 of the Prelude, "That Spanish woman [St. Theresa] who lived three hundred years ago was certainly not the last of her kind. MANY Theresas have been born..."

Marni

Every time I start this book I am distracted and have read to the something like the 27 page now three times and havent really made too much sense since when one is distracted it is hard to make sense ..and of course I chose the caboose and think I must come into a quieter place to read and ponder. Dorothea feels like someone I can understand ..she wants to do noble things and is looking for a proper suitor ( if I am wrong please dont hesitate to tell me) and even as young girl thinking of marriage I didnt look for someone too handsome but someone with a heart ..does the gentleman Dorothea is thinking of have a heart? Well I am going to have a wonderful fresh cinnamon sugared bagel from a new shop that just opened and find a quiet coach and RE READ ...hopefully I will make sense of what I am reading ...wish me luck..anna

I'm curious about how many of us are doing this group? Do you know, Joan? I don't want to hog all the questions so I'm gonna sit back, watch the scenery and wait for others to catch up a bit.

Geee Marni...I'm sorry to have misquoted you - even put quotation marks around what I thought you said about St. Theresa. Will go back and reread your post again!

Anna, so happy you are back there - INSIDE the caboose with Jo. The reading gets easier, believe me, as the plot thickens. (Except now I'm misreading posts!)

Scootz, will check for the exact number...last time I counted our tour group, we numbered about forty - give or take a few, since yesterday.

Will be right back...after rereading Marni's post...

I see how I misread what you were saying, Marni. Just now I took the time to reread the link you provided yesterday and stopped at this

"After her cure, which she attributed to St. Joseph (V. 6.6-, she entered a period of mediocrity in her spiritual life, but she did not at any time give up praying. Her trouble came of not understanding that the use of the imagination could be dispensed with and that her soul could give itself directly to contemplation. During this stage, which lasted 18 years, she had transitory mystical experiences. She was held back by a strong desire to be appreciated by others, but this finally left her in an experience of conversion in the presence of an image of "the sorely wounded Christ" (V 9.2). This conversion dislodged the egoism that had hindered her spiritual development. Thus, at the age of 39, she began to enjoy a vivid experience of God's presence within her."

Do you Dorothea's egoism as a problem at the time she contemplates marrying Casaubon?

annafair--It seems to me that Dorothea's mistake is in looking for a "great mind" in a man rather than a heart. She reminds me so much of me when I was in college. I admired intellect above all else and although I wouldn't have gone for a man as old as Casuabon, I don't think I even understood HOW to look for a man with heart. I guess I thought the heart would come along with the good mind.

Poor Dorothea--clearly she has high goals and high ideals, but the man? Good heavens, he is fiftyish and pale and humorless. Ick.

Maryal

Chapter 2 opens with a quote from Don Quijote. Don Q is the story of a deluded man, of noble feelings, who mistakes everything in the real world around him for something more lofty and romantic. (In the quoted example, the man approaching wearing the Helmet of Mambrino is actually a barber, with his brass barber’s basin on his head.)

This is a neat commentary on the nature of the choice Dorothea is about to make. She is blinded by some lofty ideals and is not noticing the reality of what is around her.

PatH--So many ways to be blinded, aren't there? I almost wish that Dorothea was blinded by love or passion. But to be blinded to what those around her can clearly see, her sister, her uncle, and to choose to be intrigued by Casaubon. Because it is a choice. But I want to grab her and say, "Hey, you have studied that picture of Milton, but have you ever really considered what it would be like to be married to him?

It is hard to not want to shake Dorthea,eh? Then I must remember the day and age she is in, the middleclass ethic of her time, the prejuding of "women's minds and apptitudes", and her "greedy need" for something glorious in her life as she imagines it was in Theresa's life.

No woman could become an architect and sell her services as such in those days and only since midcentury can they now.

Yes, blinded to what is real around her but still I like Dorthea very much and love Celia up to this point, but faint memories of the first time I read this intrude and say, "Dont give you affection lightly. Wait and see how the character developes.". Must read more than two chapters a day I think in order to keep up. Fae

Introduction: I'm reading Oxford World Classics, Middlemarch. The introduction was written by Felicia Bonaparte. She is a Professor of English at the City University of New York and has written extensively on George Eliot.

Chapter One: Dorothea, Celia, and Mr. Brooke do not represent the average family during this time period. With Mr. Brooke being so averse toward women, it is a mystery how Dorothea and Celia were brought up, and by whom. It was not uncharacteristic during this period for women to die in childbirth and leave children behind, but orphaned children with competent relations would be more likely to be left to a married female relative, or another mother-like figure. Mr. Brooke must have hired governesses and other women to raise the girls, because he certainly could not have done it himself, nor would it have been socially proper.

Don't you think that Eliot has put all three of these characters into an interesting situation. What influence will Mr. Brooke have on the girls future, especially with his averse toward women?

We see in the first chapter that Dorothea is drawn to sacrifice and grand intellectual things, while Celia has fewer aspirations in the world of academics and religion. Mr. Brooke is careful with his money and rather Puritan in his disposition and we see that this has influenced Dorothea as well.

FAITHR: “It is hard to not want to shake Dorthea,eh? Then I must remember the day and age she is in” Right. We all sympathize with D.’s desire to do something. But to think that the only way she can do it is to find a man who can teach her and tell her what to do? Eliot has pointed out that her education has left her basically uneducated. I keep wanting to tell her “You don’t need a husband. You need either a good university or a good library!” She is basically putting C. in the position of being her professor or mentor. It’s always dangerous to assume that a character represents the author, but it’s hard to resist thinking that D. is Eliot looking back at herself at age 20. It makes me wonder about that early affair she had with a mentor.

SCRAWLER: thank you for pointing out how unusual the Brooke family is. I have to check back to make sure, but my impression was that the two women had only been living with their uncle or less than a year, i.e. since they came to Middlemarch. We don’t know much about their life beforehand. But in any case, the two are so different that we have to assume it is, at least in part, “nature”, not “nurture” that we are seeing.

Has anyone noticed:

Everyone keeps pointing out how old Casaubon is, but he’s only 45.

Eliot keeps pointing out how little D. Can do, but she has started a school in the village (mentioned once, briefly) and designed and gotten built decent housing for workers.

Maybe we need to keep a close eye on Eliot’s assumptions.

Phyll, you have a real problem trying to interleave "Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince" and "Middlemarch". I should warn you that it is more intense and fast-paced than the previous books, and you may not want to put it down. And you may have the same problem Marni had switching styles. I know I would. If you’re a fast reader, your best bet might be to read enough "Middlemarch" to get hooked, then take a day or two to read HP6 and decompress, then go back to M. When I got my copy, I read it pretty much nonstop, and when I finished, I felt sort of like I had been run over by a truck. It was particularly frustrating because no one I knew had read it yet, and I didn’t have anyone to discuss it with.

I was caught by SCOOTZ's remark about Dorothea being attracted to the 'mind and soul' of Casaubon. Actually, Scootz, don't you think she was attracted to an entirely fictional version of the man's 'mind and soul', of her own devising?

What could be more revealing of Casaubon's true nature than his words when he told Dorothea of his intentions toward her. "The great charm of your sex is its capability of an ardent, self-sacrificing affection, and herein we see its fitness to round and complete our own."

He is proposing to graciously accept her self-sacrificing affection, as fit to 'round and complete' his own. I am convinced he will become quickly disaffected if her willingness to sublimate should flag, and she should begin to ask something for herself.

I'm wondering if Dorothea's antipathy to Chettam is simply that he represents a life which she desperately desires to escape. She has no objection to the man himself; he would make an excellent husband for Celia and Celia would be quite content with him. But not Dorothea.

Joan asks if Dorothea is not guilty of egoism. I would say yes, tho' of course she is completely unaware of it. Very much wrapped up in her own views and opinions, I fear.

Babi

I am here late:( Scootz http://www.joyofbaking.com/SconesIntroduction.html click on scones picture for recipe:) BBCesana I am young do not understand all words what is a papist? did chapter 1:) like how nice Dorthea is with her sister:) she gave her the necklace!

Bluebird: A papist is a Catholic.

JoanK: Re: "Eliot has pointed out that her [Dorothea's] education has left her basically uneducated. I keep wanting to tell her “You don’t need a husband. You need either a good university or a good library!”

I think you hit the nail on the head. Dorothea wanted a more advanced education, to learn things such as Latin so she could be more productive. Girls in that era generally didn't have the education that boys had. I think they had some basics and classes in music, etiquette, etc. They were taught how to be pleasing wives and good housekeepers. Dorothea seems extremely bright and talented. She has skills in planning, in drawing up designs for housing, it seems. I don't know if she was educated in this or taught herself, but she can do it. Maybe she doesn't recognize her talents and intelligence.

It's almost as if she is looking for a father figure in a husband, as well as a teacher and mentor. This is fairly common, isn't it? Casaubon also has an intellectual goal that Dorothea feels she can help with; she can help him create something great.

I wondered, too, if Dorothea is a young Eliot. She's such an unusual young lady.

Marni

JoanK, thanks for the gloves! Now I feel like a real lady!
You mention that Eliot says Dorothea can do little, but she (D.) started a village school and planned decent housing for workers. She also seemed to have the abilities of an architect if not the formal training or experience. Could this be an instance of the author's irony? Eliot knows D. can do a lot, but speaks with the voice of her era when she says she can't? I think she wants to emphasize the political and social restraints that prevented women from aspiring to the "male" professions when she says that D. "can do nothing." Of course she can't! Everyone, nearly, seemed to consider women inept in practical affairs or the scientific and scholarly pursuits, so in that sense she "can't' -- they won't let her! Her uncle, finding that she is studying Greek, makes an issue of what activities are appropriate and practical for women: "...there is a lightness about the feminine mind -- a touch and go -- music, the fine arts, that kind of thing -- they should study those up to a certain point, women should, but in a light way, you know." Marriage to Chettam would be accepting the traditional female role, permitting her to be the lovely flower clinging to his arm and the brilliant hostess playing and singing at his parties. If she helped him with anything substantive, she wouldn't expect to receive public credit for her talent and ability, but that probably wouldn't matter much to Dorothea, at least not to the Dorothea we are meeting in the early part of the story. It will be interesting to see how she develops. When Eliot says, "Poor Dorothea," I wholeheartedly agree. It's sad that that she presents her natural ardor for noble activity and her love to Casaubon -- such a dry stick of a creature who feels no great pleasure or excitement in contemplating his coming marriage. He thinks the poets have given us an exaggerated impression of what love is all about. Maybe it's some deficiency in her, he thinks! But no, it's probably just the” exaggerations of human tradition." Ye Gods!
Babi, your observation sounds prophetic to me: " He is proposing to graciously accept her self-sacrificing affection, as fit to 'round and complete' his own. I am convinced he will become quickly disaffected if her willingness to sublimate should flag, and she should begin to ask something for herself. "

I think Mr. Brooke is the comic character in the book so far. He reminds me of a Dickens' character, such as Mr. Micawber, but of a higher class and not quite as exaggerated a caricature. Mr. Brooke is amusing the way he repeats the ends of his sentences frequently, meanders from one subject to another, the way he enhances (or makes up) his accomplishments, the way he seems rather meek. Someone mentioned his aversion to women. He is a confirmed bachelor. But, I get the impression that he is afraid of women - in an amusing way - not understanding them.

I don't think any "aversion" to women impacted his regard for Dorothea and Celia. I think he loves them. He just doesn't quite know what to do with them. I think he has difficulty making decisions and taking steps that would put him in a difficult situation. He wants to avoid trouble. But sometimes by trying to avoid trouble, he creates or ends up in trouble.

Marni

babi said: SCOOTZ's remark about Dorothea being attracted to the 'mind and soul' of Casaubon. Actually, Scootz, don't you think she was attracted to an entirely fictional version of the man's 'mind and soul', of her own devising?

And really I'm not sure I understand your question/distinction. I stand by my comment of her being attracted to his his mind and soul. I don't think it's fictionalized- the man was writing a great work and was far more intellectual than Chettam. I'm stumped by the question really.

bluebird- thanks for the scone page!

marni- I agree with your comments re Brooke and women. I think he's just a bit awkward being put into the guardian position. He wants to do the right thing, AND give the girls the courtesy of making their own decisions.

The comic character for me is Mrs. Cadwallader- what a hoot! I'd bet Eliot had lots of models for that judgmental, interfering type with her own scandals.

My favorite character thus far is Mrs Cadwallader, with Celia running a very close second. And I don't dislike Dorothea, I just find other characters more interesting.

What assumptions do the different people in the opening chapters make about women's minds?

The assumptions are that :

women's minds are inferior to men's

women's minds can't grasp political or social issues

women's minds are full of 'weak opinions'

Is there anyone who sees Dorothea as she is?

I think Celia sees Dorothea as she is pretty well.

Does Eliot treat her with sympathy or ridicule?

Both. At times she seems to poke fun at her naivety about marriage, her unrealistic ideas about life in general. But there is also an empathy for Dorothea in her dream to do something great socially.

Good morning, Scootz - another early riser! Don't eat up all of bluebird's scones now!

Welcome, bluebird...happy you made it! Glad you brought up that necklace. We realy learn something about Dorothea's complex personality in that scene. Let's talk about the relationship between the sisters and Dorothea's complex personality today.

Scrawler, the girls have lived with Mr. B for only a year - and he's been criticized by Mrs. Cadwallader for NOT having a governess for the girls. Before this we are told they had lived in Lausanne, Switzerland... Do you REALLY believe he has much influence on Dorothea? Of course, she stands to inherit his estate IF she marries and produces a son. She ought to listen to him, eh? I don't see that happening yet. Right now she just sees him as sort of an embarrassment. Marni, he IS a comic character, isn't he? Dorothea doesn't see it that way, but he is funny!

Pat H - the quote introducing Chapter II was well chosen, wasn't it? "Don Q. sees only the "good" and mistakes everything in the real world around him for something more lofty and romantic" - In the end did Don Q realize his error? Will Dorothea? I agree, Scootz, Celia seems to know her sister quite well. She made a rather quixotic observation -
"You always see what nobody else sees...yet you never see what is quite plain."
But Dorothea doesn't seem to comprehend what Celia is saying. I suppose she thinks Celia cannot see as she does. What DOES she see?

I agree, love is blind, but is this LOVE? (What is love?) She's in love with Casaubon's great mind. Haven't people married for worse reasons? Maryal asks - has she considered what it would be like to be married to him? Oh, I think she has and in her mind, it will be glorious!

Babi...Casaubon is not devious, forthrightly revealing his intentions and expectations of the marriage. Is he to be faulted at all? It is Dorothea who has "fictionalized" his goodness - and his interest in her. You think that Dorothea's "ego" is motivating her, but that she is unaware of this. Hmmm...I'd say that not many of us realize this in ourselves - don't we ALL act out of our own self-interests, ego. It's just odd in one who is so into self-sacrifice though. Fae...is this "greed" on Dorothea's part?

Scootz asked what turned Dorothea off from the attractive and eligible Chettam and what did she see in Cassaubon? Jo writes that marriage to Chettam would be accepting the traditional female role. I don't know if Dorothea sees this, but the subject was important to Eliot and I agree with those of you who see the author in Dorothea's character. I found it interesting that Eliot portrays Dorothea is described as quite the beauty though... Jo, I do see the famous Eliot irony in the way Dorothea's accomplishments are dismissed, now that you point them out. Let's look at specific examples of how women's minds and their roles are regarded at this time in history. (Good start, Scootz! I just see your last post now as I post this.) I admit to being surprised how free women seem to be in choosing whom they will marry. I thought there would be more restraints on them.

Have a super Saturday and safe weekend, everyone!

Scootz, you may be right about Casaubon's mind and his writing of a great work. But I'm not entirely sure of that. He is apparently writing a history of the Waldenses. It has been done before, he says, but not with "thoroughness, justice of comparison, and effectiveness of arrangement" at which he himself aims. At this point, it seems that he has not begun writing, but that his notes "already made a considerable range of volumes". This was not to be any "light and speedy work". Mr. Casaubon is indeed embarked upon a major work; I find myself wondering if he will ever get it written.

When I speak of 'mind', I think not only of intelligence, but also attitude and such attributes as openness. To me, Casaubon registers as smug and superior. And of the latter trait, I fear Dorothea is guilty as well. She does see herself as spiritually superior.

I agree that Celia seems to know her sister quite well, tho' she is quite puzzled as to why Dorothea thinks and acts as she does. Delia was hurt by Dorothea's belittling attitude toward their mother's jewelry. Striving to be 'above' that sort of thing, D is being unkind. At this stage, Celia is more likable, IMO.

As for university study, was that even open to Dorothea at this time? If it was, I think Dorothea would have surely taken advantage of it. There is no mention of libraries, but we do see that she reads a lot. I suspect, tho', that she confines herself mostly to religious and 'uplifting' literature.

Babi

JoanP--Just to introduce irony here while we are still in early days. Dorothea rejects Chettam even though she very much enjoys the planning of the cottages on his estate. She loves doing the work and would continue to enjoy a position of a certain power if she married him. He clearly finds her absolutely fascinating and will yield to her when her ideas are better than his. She rejects him because she thinks that she will have an opportunity to serve a great man in his scholarly pursuits.

I, however, am skeptical, especially about that mythology to explain all mythologies. We don't know a thing about Casaubon's actual work or whether it is any good or even worth doing.

But Dorothea ironically rejects a man who would give her free reign for her organizational abilities for a man that she thinks is a great scholar.

There's a lot of posturing in academe. You can trust me on that one.

Babi--Just noticed that we agree on Casaubon. You wrote, "Scootz, you may be right about Casaubon's mind and his writing of a great work. But I'm not entirely sure of that. He is apparently writing a history of the Waldenses. It has been done before, he says, but not with "thoroughness, justice of comparison, and effectiveness of arrangement" at which he himself aims. " Yep. I don't trust the man.

Maryal

Chapter One:

If we compare Celia and Dorothea through Eliot's eyes we can see what were and were not considered suitable qualities for women during this period of time. Dorothea is a woman with strong opinions, who is more interested in the world of faith and intellect than in REALITY. These qualities are considered strange or different and are therefore undesirable and in Dorothea's case are impediments toward her getting married. Socially in the world of the novel, a silent, self-sacrificing, weak-willed woman is still ideal. But Eliot's high regard of Dorthea and her eccentricities makes us start to think that perhaps the IDEAL woman is really not ideal after all. In other words, Eliot makes us think about Dorthea in a positive way despite what society says. I can't help but wonder what those mill workers thought about Eliot's characters when they first read Middlemarch.

As I begin to read I am surrounded by a strangely dark feeling. I don't think Dorothea knows what she is getting into but I do trust her motives...I call it youthful delusion. But I feel something not so good is coming...

The big sister/little sister relationship seems normal for two girls who were raised without their own mother...anyway, that's my opinion! (smile)

It does feel soooooo good to be reading Eliot...at least so far!

Alliemae

What great post I find waiting for me this morning!! Just a few comments:

JO: I completely missed that “doing nothing” as irony. Good point. She is doing all these things, but is dismissed and dismisses herself as doing nothing.

SCOOTZ: isn’t Mrs. Cadwalader funny. Have you ever known anyone like that? I have.

MARNI: I agree that Mr. Brooke is like a Dickens character. Wouldn’t it infuriate you if someone like that kept telling you that you couldn’t understand anything, because you are a woman.

I think D. Can’t stand Chettam because he’s stupid, and clearly doesn’t understand a word she says (When she disagrees with him, he says “exactly”). Part of D.’s problem is she is more intelligent than anyone around her and yet everyone around her patronizes her because she’s a woman. No one around her can understand her and she is driven within herself to try and nourish this intelligence and to overvalue it.. This drives her away from seeing and responding to the good things in these people. She becomes focused only on things of the mind and doesn’t see Chattem’s good heart, or Celia’s need for her love and approval. No wonder she is attracted to someone like Casabaum who is all mind and no heart.

This HAS to be the mature Eliot looking back on the 20 year old that she used to be (but making herself beautiful. She deals with ugliness later)..

SCOOTZ: I agree that Celia understands Dorothea the best. Does Dorothea see herself as she is? What about Eliot? Does she see this character she has created clearly?

I have to go on the assumption that Dorothea had not yet experienced what most girls her age we would call today love/passion/lust/sexual attraction and to her, Casaubon was like a father, which she might not have had, and Chettam was like a brother, which she probably never had either but she had developed a fantasy about men. Eliot writes in Chapter one "Dorothea with all her eagerness to know the truth of life, retained very childlike ideas about marriage." and a few lines later D was thinking: "The really delightful marriage must be that where your husband was a sort of father, and could teach you even Hebrew, if you wished it."

In her great search for knowledge, she hung on to the only man who could be satisfactory in this pursuit. She seemed to think that marriage would be one great school where her husband would be her tutor, period. Perhaps we will learn later what her past had been in Lausanne, probably in a convent as Joan mentioned and that would give us a clue as to why she thinks she 'fell in love' with Casaubon when actually he was the only man in her entourage whom she could marry as marriage was the only avenue where her future could be honorably assured.

Mr Brooke was helpless, he didn't know women, much less young girls and their dreams. Poor him, he does try to fulfill his responsibility towards his wards, but he is just too awkward. Strong willed D will get her way in the end, I can predict, I only read up to Chapter 5.

Éloïse

JoanK, you said, "This HAS to be the mature Eliot looking back on the 20 year old that she used to be (but making herself beautiful. She deals with ugliness later)..
"SCOOTZ: I agree that Celia understands Dorothea the best. Does Dorothea see herself as she is? What about Eliot? Does she see (the character she has created?"
These questions help me understand the experience I’m having with Dorothea/Eliot (Mary Ann!) I do believe Eliot is revealing her youthful self in this character. Dorothea has a great appeal for us because even in this modern era we recognize ourselves in her. She is naïve about marriage, even ignorant, but on more solid ground intellectually. She is a very bright young woman and an idealist who imagines that around the metaphorical corner that leads to her future lays the possibility of great learning and achievement. (No one can see around that corner.)This is the dream she loves, so any notions of love have to be connected to the dream. Didn’t we all have vague dreams of achievement and noble actions even though we wouldn’t have been attracted to a Casaubon?
I love Brooke and Mrs. Cadwallader! What a powerhouse she is! Imagine what she would accomplish in a different era? She comes on like gangbusters over Dorothea’s marriage to Casaubon because she has to spend her enormous energies on local matters. What else was there for a woman like that to do?
Did anyone read Jane Austen’s Emma? It too is the story of a bright young woman a generation before Dorothea with not enough to do! Her father even reminds me of D. and C.’s uncle. I’m positive Eliot knew that book.

How can she help feeling fearful? In the preceding few paragraphs (mid-ch 2) we have just read about Dorothea's 'annoyance at being twitted with her ignorance of political economy', by her uncle Mr Brooke. And then immediately the little 'annoyance that Sir James would be solicitating her attention, (with horsemanship and hunting), when she wanted to give it all to Mr Casaubon.

What a richly-detailed portrait of Dorothea in these first chapters. She is smart. She's good-looking. She will shortly be a woman of independent means with her 700 a year. And she is obviously a woman of independent intellectual and spiritual interests. She has a forceful personality, dominating her sister, being deferred to by her uncle in practical matters, and even agreeably impressing Sir James with her wilfullness. And now it is suggested that even Mr Casaubon has begun to think of Miss Brooke as a suitable wife for himself.

And just like that, as wild as it may seem, Edward Casaubon becomes Mr Right for Dorothea. Not love perhaps, but a fatal attraction nevertheless. Certainly not the 'canine attraction' of which we have heard, but a true meeting of minds. Kindred spirits. Or, Dorothea's handmaid to Casaubon's archangel, according to the epigraphs scattered about.

"Dorothea by this time had looked deep into the unguaged reservoir of Mr Casaubon's mind, seeing reflected there in vague labyrinthine extension every quality she herself brought', to this quickly budding relationship.

'She found in Mr Casaubon a listener who understood her at once.' And perhaps even a certain charm in his wan smile 'like pale wintry sunshine.' No doubt he also shared with Dorothea, her dignity of stature and bearing.

A perfect match. I believe it's totally absurd to believe that a good shake would ever get her to change her mind.

"Has anyone ever pinched into its pilulous smallness the cobweb of pre-matrimonial acquaintanceship?"!?!?! p24. Is that what Eliot is trying to do with MIDDLEMARCH?...Flora

I believe it's totally absurd to believe that a good shake would ever get her to change her mind.

Yeah, but it would feel soooo good!

Afternoon tea is a later tradition than this book--I only checked one site, which lists 1840. I'm still uncertain about the trains, too. I think I'm in a carriage. And when was rubber, too? Am I in a carriage on wooden wheels? Maybe a horse pulled open-air train car.

I want crumpets with ricotta cheese, gooseberry jam, and cucumber slices.

Kleo

"Many after her would have *liked* to have led epic lives, but because of societal constraints, they couldn't. Whoever is speaking in the prelude appears to be setting themselves up as that "cygnet among the ducklings" who longs to make a difference in her world, but whose world prevents her." Scootz

Well, who doesn't want to live an epic life and make a difference in their world? Good point to remember through the book, the prologue seems to say. Thanks, Scootz.

Kleo

I agree that the prelude is a quote to the whole book, and as such, we won't be able to answer:

"Can anyone help me to understand the reasons Eliot gives as to why the modern Saint Theresas become “founder(s) of nothing”?"

until we've read the whole book, maybe?

Kleo

Here you go, Kleo - a roof over your head, and an engine - do you see a coal car? 1830 - first passenger trains. First, second and third class. Don't know that we have any ricotta or the gooseberry on board...

I just stopped in to comment about posting those interesting links to other web sites...as bluebird did here this morning. There's so much out there to enhance this experience. I hope you continue to share. SOMETIMES when you copy/paste a url, it is so long that it can cause the whole discussion to scroll to the right. (Your wasn't one of the long ones, bluebird) SOOO, I'm going to ask you all that when you post a link, you put it into the following code.

<a href="copy/paste url between quotation marks">describe link </a>
I've included these directions in the heading for your future use.

Thanks again for the delicious scone recipes - and this afternoon's delicious posts too. Will be back after dinner to savor each one. This is such a pleasant trip. I hope you are all enjoying it as much as I am!

ps. There was some discussion on "the founder of nothing" in earlier posts - the day before yesterday, I believe. If you enter the phrase in the search engine, you should find those posts and you may find them helpful.

J meeting D presents her with the little white Maltese and she responds with this passage, "I believe all the petting that is given them (small pets) does not make them happy. They are too helpless: their lives are too frail. A weasel or a mouse that gets its own living is more interesting. I like to think that the animals about us have souls something like our own, and either carry on their own little affairs or can be companions to us, like Monk(referring to her hunting dog) here. Those creatures are parasitic."

"I am so glad I know that you do not like them," and he is not in the least put off.

I think the author may have been making some metaphor re: womens lives when they are "pampered wives". I may be,in looking back at Elliot, giving her to much of a modern perspective. Still her own life does seem to be thrust into her writing.

At the end of chapter four now I am sure I love Celia who has good common sense and is aware of the reality of the situation. I am glad she startled D and told her of J intentions. Still there D is where I left her in the library with her Uncle telling him she is flattered by C's interest in her. She is so willing to be submissive that I think it must reflect her "convent" upbringing and her "Saint" longings. Her need to give up what she might truly enjoy and find sensual like horseback riding is part of that Saint psychosis hahaha.Fae

JO: Jane Austen’s EMMA. Yes! MRS. Cadwaleder is who Emma would have become if she hadn’t married Knightley. Or maybe even if she had!

Flora: “Has anyone ever pinched into its pilulous smallness the cobweb of pre-matrimonial acquaintanceship?"!?!?! p24. Is that what Eliot is trying to do with MIDDLEMARCH?...Flora

Excellent point! She is, isn’t she. And you have summarized what she saw excellently.

SCOOTZ: yeah, shaking would feel good. Maybe I’ll find a doll and shake it.

KLEO: there you are. I was afraid your giant squid had gotten you! No afternoon tea in 1830!! I’m crushed. But we’ll have ours anyway – they can’t stop us!

FAITHR: Dorothea’s description of pets as metaphor for women’s lives. Good point!! I’m sure you’re right.

Yes, Celia does see what’s going on, doesn’t she? She’s an interesting character. Is she a totally sympathetic one? Do you think she is realistic? Is the relationship between her and D. A good one?

It’s hard for us to sympathize with those “Saint longings, isn’t it? Do any of you know anyone like that?

Can you send me a bigger picture, JoanP? I can't tell that it even has roofs. Yes, there were trains, I just don't think train travel was common due to its unreliability. But I'm not really sure of it. I do know for certain, though, that the trains in the 1830s all ran on different gauges, didn't hold to time tables. And, if the book starts in 1829 are we going to miss the beginning if we don't board a passenger train until 1830? Should I be consulting Einstein?

This is a difficult era for us, not just the inhabitants, because of all the changes in the world. I never thought of the great changes due to trains happening at this time. I would like a more solid timeline for the era of the inventions and their distributions and impacts, not just of the politics. This book has so much!.

JoanK -- No, ain't been et' by any Architeuthidae. Just busy this weekend with family stuff. I think high tea is the best invention in the world--invented by a woman.

Faithr -- I so agree with your insight into the pets, that I didn't at first realize this "I believe all the petting that is given them ... does not make them happy. They are too helpless: their lives are too frail." was about animals. Is it really about animals, though? Thanks for the post.

I'm reading beginning and ending and meeting in the middle of the first 70 posts, so I apologize if I am commenting on someone's contribution that someone else already commented similarly about or if I attribute the origin incorrectly. What a great beginning!

Kleo

I want to gnaw a bit pilulously on the trains and the inventions, so bear with me, please, everyone, on this journey.

The best thing about on-line book clubs is that I meet people from outside of my normal sphere, and you all look at things so differently from how I look at them. Sometimes you (the collective Internet Universe You) come up with things that don't seem to matter to me, but I cannot afford to dismiss them because I know you (the collective SeniorNet you) are a fairly hard-reading, intelligent lot. Again, you're not anonymous reviewers on Barnes and Noble or Amazon--I can weigh your contribution. So, I may instinctively disagree with travelling by train, but I can't afford to dismiss what drove you to this notion for this book in the first place that is so far from how I would have approached it.

International travel has had a tremendous impact on our lives, it has shrank the globe. Was this the end of provincial life? Is the train more important in 1829 than anyone but the SeniorNet Middlemarch audience realizes? I think this is gonna be one hecka fascinating journey! I am SOOOO excited right now reading these posts.

Oh, one other thing, although I've read the book a handful of times before, when I start rereading a book I don't remember it as I read. This makes it new every time. This makes the possibility of a huge error on my part (the whole book turning out to be about trains) possible, also.

Kleo

I am just starting Chapter 3. I am finding all of the posts of great interest.

At a library book sale I bought a copy of George Eliot by Elizabeth Deeds Remarth. It is part of Twayne's English Authors Series. It has been waiting to be read for quite awhile. lol

In watching Dorothea, I think I bring too much modern woman sensibility to bear.

However when I remember my Chicago suburban upbringing in the 1950's and the spoken limitations on a woman and what she could do and not do, the constraints and unmet needs, and my own frustrations and chafing at the lack of (I knew not what) I understand Dorothea and perhaps Eliot much better.

It is easy to condemn her foolishness but it is easy also to understand why a 'brainy' woman like her would make her foolish mistakes.

Hmmm....the "Key to All Mythologies"? Methinks there may be some ironic allusion going on here.

Faith- excellent thought about the pets. I had a good chuckle over that part, but didn't see it as you did- missed that completely. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. It seems so obvious now.

JoanK- Give that doll an extra shake for me, will you?

Re "Saint's longings"- I don't believe that has ever been a big problem in my life. LOL or anyone else I've known personally.

Kleo- if you're going to gnaw, it certainly makes good sense to do it pilulously.

However as Joan said- we shall all have our afernoon tea regardless. Humph! Historical accuracy be d***ed!

bbcesana said:It is easy to condemn her foolishness but it is easy also to understand why a 'brainy' woman like her would make her foolish mistakes.

Indeed....and how about looking at how foolish Casaubon is in this regard as well. Do any of us think *he* has such a good grip on what marriage is all about, how his will turn out? He's also brainy and also making foolish assumptions, and has unrealistic dreams.And he should know better at his age. I wonder- Celia seems to have a more appropriate picture of what marriage would really be. Makes me wonder if intellectuals get in their own way about these things. Overthinking, as it were. Comments?

SCOOTZ, I got such a good laugh out of your post following Flora's, about giving Dorothea a good shake. I had been thinking exactly the same thing.

Uh, Kleo...the ricotta, gooseberry jam and cucumbers? You didn't mean together, did you? (shudder)

You know, reading the posts this morning brought back to my mind a dream I once had. Not a dream, actually, more of a vignette..a single picture in which I knew all about what I was seeing.

I saw a young woman standing at a fireplace mantel, dressed in a dress that appeared to be from the 1800's. It was pink, and had a row of fussy little bows all down the back. She had one hand on the mantel, and her expression was angry.

I knew she was the daughter of one of the coal barons of the time. She was a very capable and intelligent woman, and would have been quite capable of learning the coal business and one day assuming control of it. This was quite impossible, tho...not to be considered. What was required of her was to wear expensive clothes and stand about being pleasant and looking pretty. Her frustration was palpable.

I remember waking up and thinking, "Wow! No wonder I don't like pink or fussy bows!"

Babi

Good morning, Babi! You have such vivid dreams and in color too! My first thought was that the angry young woman might be Dorothea. The epigraph introducing Chapter IV - written by Eliot

1st Gent: Our deeds are fetters that we forge ourselves.
2nd Gent: Ay truly; but I think it is the world that brings the iron.

Your dream-girl is fettered by the iron of her world, society. That's why she's angry. Does Dorothea seem angry to any of you? At first glance she has surprisingly few "fetters." Is this because her parents are gone and her guardian bachelor uncle is clueless?

Society (are the Brookes moving in the highest circles of Middlemarch?) seems to be dictating a plainer dress for young ladies than the pink dress with bows the coal miner's daughter is wearing. The opening lines in Chapter I describes Dorothea as "poorly dressed" - and Celia wearing scarcely more trimmings than Dorothy - (a few "coquettish" trimmings) Two reasons given for this plain dress - their social rank (Puritan ancestry) and to some extent, "religious feeling."

It seems that most of us like Celia better, when comparing her to her maddening sister who cannot see reality. Alliemae sees a normal big sister-little sister relationship here. I'm feeling sympathy towards Celia right now because in these times, there is a distinct disadvantage to being the younger sister. The elder stands to inherit everything, so the younger must marry well, or support herself in some way - teacher, governess - and therefore slip down the social ladder a few notches.

bluebird saw generosity in Dorothea's gift of their mother's jewelry to Celia. (Uncle Brooke had given it to Dorothea- all of it!) But did you notice how badly she made Celia feel for taking it? She tells Celia she'd never wear it herself - would feel as if she were "pirouetting" (a bad thing.) And yet the emerald/diamond ring and bracelet was an exception - a temptation. I liked that show of "weakness" - it made her seem real somehow. Maybe it is because of her weaknesses that I am drawn to her.

bbc, you seems to understand how this brainy woman can make some of the foolish mistakes that she does. What I don't like about her, and cannot really understand is the way she manages to disparage and put down others who do not share her intensely religious beliefs - which is just about everyone but Casaubon.

Scrawler, your post makes me aware of the irony of the message in Eliot's portrayal of Dorothea. In this novel, an outspoken woman's strong opinions are considered "impediments to marriage" - while "a silent, self-sacrificing, weak-willled woman is is the ideal." And yet Eliot portrays a well-connected, strong willed, outspoken...and beautiful woman, who has everyone after her for his wife. Some of us see the young Eliot in Dorothea - who was NEITHER well-connected, nor beautiful! Isn't this an example of Eliot's irony?

Why wasn't Uncle Brooke more concerned about Dorothea's choice of Casaubon? Especially since he knew Mrs. Cadwallader had already expressed her opinion and noised it about that she was to marry the more desirable and better-connected Sir James. Perhaps he knows that a union between Sir James and the younger Celia would solve another problem in marrying her off? Another reason to pity Celia...who would always know that her husband's first choice was her own sister!

Flora, you ask whether the whole of Middlemarch will focus on the "cobweb of pre-matrimonial acquaintanceship." Oh, gee, I hope not. We'll have to read more to learn if this mating dance is simply the Prelude to the Grande Finale. Do you think that the choices made now as young women will affect the course of their lives - the course of the novel? Did yours?

Chapter One: Celia is more suited for the time period in which she lives. She is able to be herself and have her own opinions without appearing out of place. Dorthea, on the other hand, tends to be more interested in religion and the world of the mind and is therefore considered by society to be out of place.

But that brings us to the question of whether Dorthea should become more suited to her society, or should society have to learn to accept different kinds of women? Even today we can ask the same question.

Eliot created Dorthea not as a black or white character. In fact there are no villians in Middlemarch unless we want to count Bulstrode, but technically he isn't a villian. Dorthea is far from perfect and she has a lot to learn. But the fact that she is mistaken in some of her appraisals of life, doesn't necessarily mean that she needs to correct everything in her life.

On the other hand, the statement that Dorothea wants to marry "great men whose odd habits it would have been glorious piety to endure," exposes Dorothea's outmoded views on marriage, and her particularly interesting personality. Husbands aren't supposed to be some kind of religious trial, and one shouldn't marry in order to seek martyrdom for putting up with their eccentricities. Eliot makes it clear that Dorthea is mistaken.

Interestingly enough I look back on my own marriage. To say I had my head in the clouds would be an understatement. But than I was love and it was the 1960s. Could Dorothea's outmoded views on marriage be a result of "love" or at the very least a romantic view of what life and marriage should be?

I once had a marriage counsellor tell me that MM was for her an excellent guide to understanding that intricate, labyrinthine institution. And Eliot herself received appreciative letters from husbands and wives who had been greatly helped by the tonic of the book. True, a few males objected to being told by the likes of Dorothea that men 'could live useful lives with a little female guidance' and that 'a man's mind - what there is of it - has always the advantage of being masculine', whatever she meant with that. What a glorious thing that women like George Eliot were speaking out, masquerading as males only out of necessity. She has such a wonderful sense of humor. Without giving anything away, I would just like to make the observation that before this is all over, one is feeling really sorry for EVERYBODY - both the characters one likes and the characters one doesn't like...Flora

Eloise did you get the impression that Dorothea looked upon Casaubon as husband material at first...or rather as a tutor. I was looking at the epigraphs (am I using the right word here?) to the chapters...and noticed the allusion to Raphael and Eve at the start of Chapter III.

"Say, goddess, what ensued, when Raphael,
The affable archangel...
Eve the story heard attentive, and was filled with admiration, and deep muse, to hear of things so high and strange."- Paradise Lost

Dorothea was smitten by two things about Casaubon...from him she heard of "things so high and strange" and then the fact that a man of such high-mindedness was interested in what she had to say! Is this a reason to marry someone? I'm wondering what young girl could resist if she received a letter from someone like him. Do you really believe she was marrying her father? I'm not so sure. A tutor perhaps. But she wasn't marrying an ardent suitor either - judging from the letter he wrote her.

How come she isn't interested in the opportunity to do something really "good" which Sir James offers her. Maryal points out the great irony here. Did you notice that as soon as she heard Casaubon speak of higher learning and scholarship, Dorothea became annoyed when Sir James tried to talk to her about their project. I think at this point I realized that her desire to learn and advance herself was more important than her expressed desire to do something noble and kind to others. Poor Sir James. Joan K - do you think he is really "stupid" - or just not the intellectual type that impresses Dorothea. I can't get over how he never gives up in his attempts to please her.

Fae, thank you for drawing our attention to Dorothea's reaction when Sir J. brought her the adorable little pup. A wonderful parallel between pets and wives...Eliot at her finest. What I like about the slow pace of this discussion is that we are not racing through the plot line and missing all the delicious nuances.

I think that Dorothea's complex personality would be a great psychological study for a research paper. So many inconsistancies. They are interesting because they make her "real" - and because in many ways, I think they ARE real, because George Eliot is telling us about herself through this character. The irony is that she gives Dorothea the benefit of being well-connected and beautiful. Two things Eliot did not have going for her. Is she saying that they are really not important?

Off for the day - it's lovely here. I watch with daily horror at the scene in New Orleans and then feel guilty about enjoying self. Traude described the scene in the Superdome as one of the lowest circles in Dante's Inferno. Some of the news is mind-boggling. A happy announcer yesterday saying that finally the mail is going forward, the postal workers have made it back to work. I mean, think about it!

ps. Jo, I remember when we were discussing Karen Fowler's Jane Austen Book Club not so long ago...I read all six of Jane Austen's novels during that month-long discussion. When you read them that quickly, you get a feeling for her characterization of men. I remember reading back then that Jane Austen had a strong influence on female authors coming after her - and George Eliot was mentioned. What I remember specifically was that Jane Austen, who lived a fairly sequestered life, with very little male acquaintances, portrayed her men better than those writers who followed her. Flora That was interesting information on how men (real men) reacted to Eliot's portrayal of themselves! What do you all think of Eliot's men at this point?

pps. Ginny Ann - by all means, dust off the Remarth biography, will you please do? And check for influences - see if Jane Austen is mentioned?

ppps. Kleo - more on trains (larger pictures too) in the link in the heading to 19th c. Politics and Robert Peel. Did you bring us that link during the pre-discussion? If you click the link, the first screen will include a link to "Railways" on the right hand side. Enjoy!

Scrawler--We're only in the opening chapters here. The information about Bulstrode is not applicable. Let's stay within the beginning, please.

Kleo--The train was really just a game and it was pointed out by several in the prediscussion that widespread train service was not available at the time of the novel. Have you reread the first five chapters?

Faith--I was intrigued by your thinking of the analogy to wives as cute little things sort of like the pup Chettam brings Dorothea. Ah yes, to be an adornment. But I think that Chettam is actually attracted to Dorothea for who she is; he's really interested in her plans for the cottages.

Like Joan P I am off for the remainder of the day in what is turning out to be a lovely day. Thank heaven the National Guard finally got there. It's not their fault it wasn't sooner, by the way. Before anything can be done, order has to be restored and it now has been, or is in the process of being. And those folks living in the horrible conditions are out, thank God.

JOANP asked me "do you think (Chattem) is really "stupid" - or just not the intellectual type that impresses Dorothea"

Good point. "Stupid" was probably the wrong word. D. is frustrated, because Chattem's answers to what she says shows that he doesn't understand a word she says. No matter what she says, he answers "exactly" even when that answer makes no sense.This must have been infuriating, (especially since the same must be true of Mr. Brooke) and must make her think he is stupid, whether he is or not. When she meets Casabaum, he not only seems bright, he LISTENS to her and seems to UNDERSTAND what she is saying. That must have been like a drink of water in the dessert.

There WAS a train in "Spon End" (Old Coventry -- the Middlemarch model) at about that time (but not from London). I can't seem to find the link, but the picture we had of Spon End showed the viaduct that carried it. That viaduct, we are told, collapsed sometime in the 1820's and had to be rebuilt. So it might not have been operational in 1829/30. The introduction to my Penguin book mentions reactions to the railroad being discussed in Middlemarch.

Here are the links from the pre-discussion, JoanK. Spon End was the old part of Coventry, which is the setting for Middlemarch. The street scene is one that Mary Ann Evans would have been familiar with in the 19th century. I'll put the link to the web site in the heading and you will have to search no more for it - except through the growing Related links in the heading!
Spon End, Coventry

*********************************

19th Century Spon End, Coventry/Middlemarch

GREAT! I was wrong. The railroad was built sometime between 1827-30) and the viaduct (see it in the background of the picture?) didn't collapse until 1857. From the link above:

"At around the same time as the construction of the Holyhead Road (1827-30), Spon End was also dissected by the Coventry - Nuneaton railway which ran through Spon End over a quarter mile long arched railway viaduct. In 1857 23 of the 28 sandstone arches collapsed althogh remarkably no one was hurt. The line was not reopened until 1860".

Granted, it only came from Nuneaton, 10 miles away. But we can use our magic train leaving from platform 3.14159 to go the rest of the way (If Harry Potter can do it, so can we!)

Do you suppose building the railroad will figure in the book? Since Eliot was from near Nuneaton, it must have made an impression on her.

you said, "I think that Dorothea's complex personality would be a great psychological study..."

Just before I read that and a few of the previous postings were comparing Dorothea and Celia I was thinking about how sometimes when people are not comfortable with how the fit or don't fit into their society (in our days we have called it 'identity crisis'), they dart behind rather grandiose thinking (like being able to have the holiness of spirit and character of St. Theresa) because staying close to their own situation and closeness to themselves is too painful or makes them too uncomfortable.

So I agree that she would make a great psychological study, both in her super-spiritual leanings and the fact that she was big sister in a house with no mother. I also wonder if Dorothea would rather be the extreme antithesis of her uncle's character and other 'commonness'...

Whenever there is the trauma of early loss I think certain personality types need, in one way or the other, to find a way to convince themselves they are in control of life...even if just by being 'the best' or the 'most right' about things.

Alliemae

Didn't mean to go off on that tangent! In just six chapters I have already become quite fond of both the girls!!

Do any of you know if it was the custom for a meeting and a marriage to happen in such a short space of time?

Alliemae

Re your question about courtships, I found this charming site. It seems to suggest that short courtships were not the done thing. Reading the items under "Lady", I'm struck by how Dorothea doesn't fit many of the criteria. LOL

http://www.victoriaspast.com/Courtshipdance/courtshipdance.html

JOANK, I was struck by your observation that neither Chettam nor Dorothea's uncle actually listened to her. Chettam flattered and her uncle disparaged, but neither gave her credit for saying something worth their attention. Of course she would be thrilled when Casaubon did!

And in two readings I still hadn't caught that. Which, of course, is precisely what makes these discussions so great.

Babi

ps. The young dream lady in pink was the daughter of a wealthy English coal baron, not a coal miner. They had a social position to maintain, whether she liked her role in it or not. She shared with Dorothea the strong sense of being limited by society and kept from using her gifts. And the waste of gifts and talents is always a shame , isn't it?

B

It does seem like they rushed into marriage. Perhaps Eliot is not interested in too much detail. Is anyone listening? Dorothea, as bright as she is, sees only what she is looking for. Only Casaubon listens to her, she feels. The evidence is to the contrary. Celia is alert to every signal she gets from her sister. Sir James hangs on to her every word so he can fall into her way of thinking. And just look how observant and cautious her uncle, Mr Brooke, is, as the letter-bearer from Casaubon. In the dialog of the last several pages of chapter four. He does have advice for her with sharp hints regarding an unsuitable match, he does try to give her a 'shake' like some of us would like to do. The hints are totally lost on Dorothea. She's not listening. Mr Brooke, on the other hand, seems completely alert to the strange desires of his niece. He may not quite understand her, but he does seem eager to play the role of the responsible guardian. But he doesn't dare cross her. One wonders what lies ahead for Casaubon with a wife such as this. It might be a bit much, but I feel that Mr Brooke is real salt of the earth. And his niece could be, too, once she matures. Sir James is obviously betting on it. He's a sharp listener. The only one not hearing her may be that pedant Casaubon.

Flora

Engagements were often rushed into in that era. The marriage was often after only a 6mth engagement and the courtship was often only a matter of weeks. The girls would nearly always have arranged marriages in the upper and middle classes. They rarely had the luxury of marrying for love. Their parents would coerce and often almost force them into "a suitable match"

Carolyn

Casaubon lives completely in his mind, with very little knowledge of the world in which he lives. But is he good choice for Dorothea? It is ironic that Dorothea favors Casaubon since the very qualities that she is attracted to are the very ones that could cause her the greatest harm. It is also ironic that Dorothea is so quick to slight the man who listens to her plans for the public good, and seeks to cater to the things suggested by Sir James that would do her the most good.

I wonder who the narrator of the story is.

Dorothea, aside from her beauty and horse-back riding, seems to have few or no moderating good traits, while her sister seems to be the modicum of reasonableness and sensibility with few faults - their characterization seems to be extreme and/or reflects the narrator's opinion.

The problem is that Dorothea is drawn with such a broad brush and I have not become engaged with her but simply foresee her gloomy fate already.

Casaubon has several good points, none of which touch me at all. It is as though we are seeing the story through Celia's eyes from the start. I am surprised at this seeming inbalance. Perhaps I will soon see the point.

All of the characters are very real and vivid however, Eliot is very good.

ALLIEMAE: you didn’t go off the deep end. It’s a sign of a good book (and a good reader) when we get involved I’m glad you asked about courtship. It sparked a good discussion.

Do check out SCOOTZ’s link on courtship.

Ah! Who listens to whom? FLORA: you’re right. Dorothea doesn’t listen. Mr. Brooke and Chattem listen to D., but they don’t understand her. The only real listener here seems to be Celia. The others hear what they want to hear.

CAROLYN: good point. Engagement after a few weeks of knowing the other person! Of course, in this ,as in many societies, there weren’t many opportunities for men and women to really get to know each other without there being a commitment. The longer (6 months) engagement didn’t help. Once engaged, it would have been a terrible scandal to break it off.

ANNE says “It is ironic that Dorothea favors Casaubon since the very qualities that she is attracted to are the very ones that could cause her the greatest harm,” Fascinating! We’ll have to see how that plays out.

BBC: a completely different point of view. “The problem is that Dorothea is drawn with such a broad brush and I have not become engaged with her but simply foresee her gloomy fate already”. Great! That’s what makes these discussions so good. Does anyone else agree with BBC?

SCOOTZ’s link mentioned The Godey’s Ladies Book”. I am lucky enough to own a bound copy for one year that belonged to my great grandmother. This was an American (not English) magazine that presented a lady with everything she wanted to know: the latest fashions, etiquette, music for playing the piano, patterns for making clothes, lace work, etc. and uplifting stories: all the things a “lady” was supposed to fill her time with. But it was not just read by ladies – my GGG was a farm woman in Ohio. Women would take these with them and read them while they were actually living a hard pioneer life.

“The problem is that Dorothea is drawn with such a broad brush and I have not become engaged with her but simply foresee her gloomy fate already”. Great! That’s what makes these discussions so good. Does anyone else agree with BBC?" Yes, I do too.

Today I read a juicy bit of foreshadowing that promises to give us all a thrill later on, but I won't say what it is yet, I want to wait until someone else notices it before I comment. Oh! boy is Dorothea in for a big surprise about what marriage is.

Éloïse

Long engagements were the norm when I was young.Shortest would be 6mths and average about 18mths. My eldest daughter knew her husband for 6 yrs before they dated. They dated for four years and got engaged then got married two years to the day almost from their engagement. They had their first child 6 years after they married. They knew each other very well and have been married for 14yrs now which is quite an achievement these days! They seemed to have planned their lives in 6's. I am a fan of long engagements. There is no disgrace nowdays about breaking an engagement.

Carolyn

Oh Joan, what a treasure that Godey's must be. I had never heard of it before today. There is quite a bit about it available to view online. Very interesting!

Scootz, as I said, tea is a must. However, the tea postings are driving me crazy because I can't find any crumpets! I have the gooseberry jam, I have some nice Mediterranean cucumbers, I have some good ricotta cheese, and some gourmet butter, but I can't find any crumpets!

Yes, these are all eaten together, Babi, and they're quite good. I lived as a young child in Seattle and trips to Victoria were a very real part of life for many folks I knew, although I never did it. Everyone stopped for tea at the grand hotel in Victoria, where crumpets with jam, ricotta and cucumber slices were served, and brought this tradition home to Seattle. So, in Seattle, many folks have crumpets with ricotta and jam and cuke with tea. When I was a teenager living in San Francisco a crumpet shop opened at the Farmer's Market in Seattle. Whenever I went up to visit I went down there to have tea and crumpets.

Kleo

Joan P asks, "Why wasn't Uncle Brooke more concerned about Dorothea's choice of Casaubon?"

Well, what could he have realistically done? What a strong-willed woman Dorothea is. This is part of her delusions about herself, marriage, everything it seems. To deny her anything would have been to give her what she needed least of all: martyrdom. I think it would have made her even more impossible than she is to try to deny her the marriage to Casaubon. Sometimes you have to make your own mistakes, and your parents will do you no good to stand in the way of that.

Now, who was it who said I remind them of Dorothea? Yes, in some ways I am like her and was even more so when younger.

Kleo

Joan P comments:

"Dorothea was smitten by two things about Casaubon...from him she heard of "things so high and strange" and then the fact that a man of such high-mindedness was interested in what she had to say! Is this a reason to marry someone? I'm wondering what young girl could resist if she received a letter from someone like him. Do you really believe she was marrying her father? I'm not so sure. A tutor perhaps. But she wasn't marrying an ardent suitor either - judging from the letter he wrote her."

I think if I lived in those times having an actual human being who seemed to care what I said, especially a man when I came of an age to be interested in men, might be simple too irresistible. Intellectual stimulation alone might be one of the more intelligent reasons to marry, although that applies more to marrying your intellectual equal than your intellectual superior.

Casaubon doesn't seem ardent about anything. I don't even get the impression, from his own words, that he is ardent about his studies. Blech. Just Blech.

But, again, I have to think of the times and from Dorothea's point of view. She lives in a society that considers women to be brainless twits. Why wouldn't she jump at the first human being who actually considered she might have a brain? I think society makes her do this, not her own imperfections. She doesn't have much else to look forward to, in my opinion.

Joan -- Yes, this is the link I provided, although others may have also. It gives me the impression that the first passenger train was in 1830 and things took off quickly after that, not earlier--but this still takes time to lay rails, etc., and this timing is not given. The first passenger line was 30 miles of rail laid in 1830 from Manchester to Liverpool, according to this site. But it does not give me any idea of when rail was added to the whereabouts of Middlemarch.

Kleo

Yes, Deems, I just finished the first 6 chapters. I'm going to only read as we go along. I am also having fun picking at so many parts of the first 6 chapters, as Joan P mentioned. It is nice to do it in a leisurely fashion.

I did understand that the train is a game we are playing as we read, but I thought we were playing it because of its connection to Middlemarch? I thought the point was to enhance our learning about the times, and I am trying to put it in that context.

This does not mean I think we should do away with high tea, or that I will stop craving crumpets, however.

Kleo

It is sad how lost in her own delusions Dorothea is that she misses the opportunity Chettam offers her to provide him with good ideas to actualize. Isn't that the folly of youth, though?

Kleo

I cant help with the crumpets. I used to be able to get them here and can't any longer so I'm of no help.

You said:

Now, who was it who said I remind them of Dorothea? Yes, in some ways I am like her and was even more so when younger.

That was me.

"Good point. "Stupid" was probably the wrong word. D. is frustrated, because Chettam's answers to what she says shows that he doesn't understand a word she says. No matter what she says, he answers "exactly" even when that answer makes no sense. This must have been infuriating, (especially since the same must be true of Mr. Brooke) and must make her think he is stupid, whether he is or not. When she meets Casaubon, he not only seems bright, he LISTENS to her and seems to UNDERSTAND what she is saying. That must have been like a drink of water in the dessert." Joan K

Yes, yes, yes!! This is how Dorothea must see it, in my opinion, as 'a drink of water in the desert.'

Yet, Chettam is the one who actually offers Dorothea what she really craves, to do some good in the world. And he will not only listen to her ideas he respects them enough to actualize them! He's treating her as worthy of being his wife, his companion. Casaubon is the one really just playing lip service to Dorothea. As a woman what could she do but contribute to his greatness? I don't get the impression that even he respects his own studies that greatly. How could he expect another to respect them?

Chettam puts his money where his mouth is, on the dreams of the woman he wants to marry.

Casaubon, however, checks Dorothea's dreams that do not relate to helping him attain greatness:

"On one--only one--of her favorite themes [Dorothea] was disappointed. Mr. Casaubon apparently did not care about building cottages, and diverted the talk to the extremely narrow accommodation which was to be had in the dwellings of the ancient Egyptians, as if to check a too high standard."

Dorothea, like anyone properly infatuated dismisses his 'indifference' trying to justify it to herself. Which suitor really respects the woman, Dorothea? It's not Casaubon.

Kleo

Good catch, Scootz, as in reading the first part of the book I find some things about Dorothea that one might find in my various posts. I am very impressed by your reading acumen.

Kleo

Thanks, JoanK for the discussion about the railway in Spon End. Is this, however, a passenger rail service? Non-passenger rail service was rather extensive by 1829 in England, the first passenger rail in England being the one someone else mentioned earlier in 1830 from Manchester to Liverpool.

The addition of rail service for sending coal would probably have been a big deal to the manufacturers in Middlemarch as it might have impacted the price.

Kleo

Anne...you ask, " whether Dorthea should become more suited to her society, or should society have to learn to accept different kinds of women?" It appears that Dorothea is getting away with expressing her strong opinions, yes? Of course she's attaching herself as Casaubon's secretary, But she had the chance to work as an equal partner with Sir James on the housing project. Is this because she really is not interested in doing something noble as she thinks she does. There are so many examples of ...self-delusiion in her personality. Those probably aren't the best words to describe it, but for being such a strong-willed young lady, she doesn't seem to know herself very well.
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Alliemae - an interesting thought about Dorothea not fitting in and turning to her grandiose plans to compensate. Could George Eliot be writing about her own difficulties when she arrived in Coventry - a motherless country girl, not having a clue what society would demand of her here. Dorothea seems to be trying to find her own way, with little guidance from her uncle. Don't you wonder what she would have been like if her parents were looking out for her interests? I don't think she'd be so independent and free to make her own choices. What do you think? Maybe she would have fit in with all the other "ducks"...

There wasn't much of a courtship as I see it - a whirlwind "courtship" if one could call it that! A conversation or two and then suddenly the letter from Casaubon. This NEVER would have happened if mama and papa were present! They would have simply said NO...they would not support such a marriage - which is what Uncle Brooke should have done. Cut her out of his will if need be. You KNOW that Casaubon would not have married her anyway. He didn't LOVE her, he wanted an adoring secretary. She certainly wouldn't be worth all the bad publicity and irritating, emotional conversations that would necessarily follow...

Eliot's mother died when she was 16 and her father gave up trying to find her a husband because of her strong religious beliefs...she moved in with the Brays and then adopted highly unorthodox beliefs. But he didn't give her in marriage to the likes of Casaubon. You can read more about this here in the link found in the heading - A REALLY COMPREHENSIVE BIOGRAPHY OF MAEvans

ps. Babi - I'm sorry, that was a typo. I did understand the lady of your dreams had a coal baron daddy. No coal miner's daughter would have stood angrily at her mantle in that pretty pink party dress...I love dreams - will you tell us more?

Carolyn, are you saying that courtships and engagements were not long in Victorian times? You say that "they rarely had the luxury of marrying for love" - let's watch and see if ANYBODY marries for love in this novel. I reread Casaubon's letter again - love wasn't mentioned at all, even hinted at. Did anyone notice Dorothea's strange reaction to the letter? "She trembled, fell on her knees, buried her face, and sobbed...images floated uncertainly." What did you think of this?

Flora, Babi, I was struck by the question - "is anybody listening?" Doesn't it seem as if EVERYONE hears only that which they WANT to hear? (I'd say that includes Celia too, JoanK. She seems to be listening closely to Dorothea, only for her own interests.)
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bbc - you ask who is narrating this story - are you suggesting the story is told from Celia's point of view? Let's watch this.
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Eloise! Do I have to reread the whole six chapters to find the "juicy bit of foreshadowing that promises to give us all a thrill later on?" Will you at least give a hint - like what chapter is it in?
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Kleo - Dorothea hears quite often that women are "brainless twits"...right to her face - from close acquaintances. Don't you wonder why she doesn't respond? Blow up? Leave the room? Why is she silent? (Sometimes she reddens a little.) While we are spending time examining these first six chapters, it might be helpful to note who is making MOST of these comments.

I read somewhere, but don't remember where, that there WAS railway service - coaches were even divided up into first, second and third class! (Don't ask me where I read it though...don't recall. If/when I find it, I'll let you know, Kleo.)

JoanP--

"There wasn't much of a courtship as I see it - a whirlwind "courtship" if one could call it that! A conversation or two and then suddenly the letter from Casaubon. This NEVER would have happened if mama and papa were present! They would have simply said NO...they would not support such a marriage - which is what Uncle Brooke should have done. Cut her out of his will if need be. You KNOW that Casaubon would not have married her anyway. He didn't LOVE her, he wanted an adoring secretary. She certainly wouldn't be worth all the bad publicity and irritating, emotional conversations that would necessarily follow... "

Why would her parents have said no? We have no clues that I recall about her parents in the first 6 chapters that indicate this. Also, Casaubon has money and position, what would there be to reject? It's hard to force a silly girl into seeing what is right. Telling two headstrong people that they could not marry each other is well known throughout history as the way to fail in keeping them apart, not as the way to stop a marriage. Although he is much older than Dorothea, Casaubon does not have any strong marks against him for marriage. In 1829 marriage for love was not a usual situation. Her parents would not have been in a better boat than the uncle for stopping the marriage.

The uncle does try to reason with Dorothea, also. He also is treating her with respect in this, possibly more than she deserves: "he did really wish to know something of his niece's mind, that, if there were any need for advice, he might give it in time." He then gives Dorothea a measure of Casaubon, he's much older, by 'a good seven-and-twenty years,' he has 'learning and standing,' 'his income is good,' with 'a handsome property independent of the Church,' but 'his health is not over-strong' and Mr. Brooke '[knows] nothing else against him.'

When Dorothea dismisses the concerns about his age, even providing that she would wish an older husband who was 'above [her] in judgment and in all knowledge,' Mr. Brooke is surprised, "I thought you had more of your own opinion than most girls. I thought you liked your own opinion--liked it, you know."

I think that the uncle tries and fairly measures Dorothea in light of the marriage at the end of chapter 4.

As for Casaubon? If he had hopes and possibilities of marrying for money he would have and could have already done so. This was, in the early 19th century, an acceptable motive for marriage that would have been readily accommodated by any number of families with moneyed daughters. An adoring secretary does not have to provide money, only adoration. Dorothea has far more than money going for her in Casaubon's estimation: looks, youth, adoration, willingness to be secretary, and of good family. Money is merely icing on the cake.

Kleo

Good question, JoanP. I believe her uncle calls her a brainless twit, while at the same time treating her as anything but.

There has always been plenty of evidence of the intelligence of women, of slaves, of people different from oneself. It takes quite a bit of cultural work to keep the people believing that women are brainless twits, especially when they fail to act as brainless as expected.

Do let me know when you come across anything about the rail service.

Kleo

My best friend has a huge intellect but all her life has lacked common sense. My youngest daughter is intellectually superior to most but for many years had no common sense either. Being intelligent and opiniated has no guarantee that one will also have common sense to accompany the brainpower!

I did it. I completely forgot crumpets. Worse, I don’t even know what crumpets are (sigh). But other people do and everything is available online:

CRUMPETS

KLEO: good point about how much work it takes to keep people believing women are brainless twits (or any other group that’s being kept from full equality). A lot of it is done through sayings like those Mr. Brooks is always telling D.

I got my undergraduate degree in mathematics in the 50s, the only woman in most of my classes. When I applied to continue in Graduate School, the head of the department turned me down because “women can’t do Mathematics”.I said “But I’ve had four classes from you and in each of them I got the highest grade in the class ”. “That’s true”, he said. “But women can’t do mathematics”.

You can see why I identify with D. Thank goodness my parents weren’t like Mr. Brooke, but recognized that my sister and I craved learning and encouraged us. I probably would have ended up a worse mess than D.

I get a chuckle out of Sir James. I like him even though he is so irritating to Dorothea. I think the narrator likes him. He straightforwardly expresses what is on his mind. He can be very emotional as well as practical. He is so very upset about Dorothea's engagement to Casaubon. Sir James says about Cas: "Good God! It is horrible! He is no better than a mummy!"

Sir James is described as having "amiable vanity....and also a good grateful nature, the mere idea that a woman had a kindness towards him spun little threads of tenderness from out his heart toward hers."

The narrator is describing Sir James' disappointment when she says, "We mortals, men and women, devour many a disappointment between breakfast and dinner-time; keep back the tears and look a little pale about the lips, and in answer to inquiries says, 'Oh, nothing!' Pride helps us; and pride is not a bad thing when it only urges us to hide our own hurts - not to hurt others."

I don't think the narrator is Celia. I think the narration style is omniscient. The narrator sees into every character's mind, understands and describes every character's feelings, and not just from Celia's viewpoint. The narrator is very understanding of the complexities of human nature and relationships and of society. I think we see a real and fascinating psychological study and understanding of all of the various characters, even when we see just tidbits about some of them.

Marni

...for bringing up 'the Narrator'...

This being only my second foray into the world of narrator's (third if I count Eco), that was my first question to myself...who is the narrator in Middlemarch.

Alliemae

I just dropped in to see the new posts on my way to check for Latin and Greek Homework Assignments and now see that in just 6 chapters we all have written a small book together!!

How exciting this discussion already is. I can see I will have to make a big block of time daily to ensure the savoring of it!

Be back in a bit then...Alliemae

Oh Joan, you would have to tempt me with that picture of crumpets. My grocery here used to carry them but I haven't seen them in years. When I visit my folks in Canada I get a good dose though. They are like sponges, so the butter fairly oozes out when you bite. Generally, I'd do rawz-bree jam on them!

Good grief- $9.90 for two packages?!?!

Quite interesting posts as usual and Joan P. I read a bit further than Chapter VI so I can't talk about that juicy bit of foreshadowing. Eliot deserves every bit of praise as a superb novelist.

Marni, your #123 is right on the spot about the narrator/author. Eliot does not need to put herself in one of her characters, she knows enough about people to make them stand on their own feet psychologically and in relation to their age, their gender and their personality.

All the characters are believable. Dorothea might be highly intelligent but when it comes to matters of the heart those fall on their faces even harder. "Le coeur a des raisons que la raison ne connait pas" we say here. The heart has reasons that reason does not know.

When the brutal reality of her marriage to a man as unlovable as Casaubon hits her, we can predict a major upheaval in the life of Dorothae.

Éloïse

Good morning, early risers! Don't worry, JoanK, Eloise brought the crumpets down from Canada. Are there any left for me? Scootz, you've got butter on your chin... Alliemae, you'd better finish up your Latin homework and get back in here or there will be NOTHING left!

Such thought-provoking posts this morning! Eloise, you expressed the opinion that Eliot was painting with a broad brush in these early chapters and that it it difficult to get to know the characters yet. I feel I understand the women, but the men? They seem to be caricatures rather than any real men I have known. I don't feel I begin to "know" Eliot's men yet from what they do or particularly, from what they say - or don't say. Maybe we need to consider the opposite of what the men say if we want to get to know them. Kleo points out that Dorothea's uncle expresses the opinion that females are "brainless" but treats her as if her opinions are formidable.

Marni, Joan K had a great question regarding "voice" - we were saving it for the end of Book I...but will ask it now - hope it's okay, Joan? She wanted to know:

what you think of Eliot's "authorial voice" - what does it add to the story, what does it take away?

Have you noticed that voice of the narrator - or is it quietly in the background? Personally I think it (the voice) is too opinionated to go unnoticed...I agree with you, Marni, the narrator seems to like Sir James - and so for that reason he becomes less of a bore, less "stupid" (hahaha, JoanK, couldn't resist) than Dorothea thinks he is.

Off for the day - the daunting task of finding a mother-of-the-groom dress. This will be the third time - and I hate it. I have to try on zillions before I come to one that will do. Maybe I need to go through so many before I figure out what I am NOT looking for. I'm like Carolyn's friend - I know intellectually what sort of dress of elaborate dress I don't want, but lack the common sense to know what I DO want...even when I see it!

See you later today, hopefully with dress in hand!

kleo- as I mentioned before, my seeing some of you in Dorothea was meant as a compliment. Now that we are all talking about giving her a good shake and being peeved at her, I wanted you to know that it was your strong opinions and forthrightness that made me see you in Dorothea. I like people with strong opinions as a rule.

Joan-could be worse, dear. You could be shopping for jeans- or worse yet, a bathing suit.

Good luck and hope you find a smashing dress.

My book has arrived so I can at last properly join in the discussion.

Carolyn

Gee, thanks, JoanK. I'm also addicted to clotted cream, something I had forgotten about for a while and now must unrelentingly crave along with the crumpets.

I went to Berkeley, in part, on a math scholarship. I was the first math student to ever win a prestigious science scholarship in a fierce competition. When it was time to give the awards, the ceremonial host switched positions on me and the other guy who had won because he assumed the math winner had to be a guy. This is only about 12 years ago.

Kleo

Kleo: What is clotted cream, anyway? It sounds horrible. Clots. Makes me think of clots of blood. Is it like cottage cheese? If it is, I suppose the clots wouldn't be so bad!

Marni

clotted or clouted cream. Here's the OED definition:

[f. CLOUT n.2; or perh. f. a vb. clout = clot: cf. CLOTTED.]

Said of the cream obtained by ‘scalding’ or heating milk, which makes it thick or clotted.

Do tell us, Kleo, if it is sweet? I don't much care for heated milk myself.

KLEO, I do hope the host at the awards ceremony was suitably embarassed by his goof. He deserved to be.

I have been amusing myself by noting small quotes that I especially liked. I'm sure some of you have grinned at them, too.

",,,obliged to get my coals by stratagem and pray to heaven for my salad oil."

"..He will even speak well of the Bishop, though I tell him it is unnatural in a beneficed clergyman..."

"I can see that she admires you almost as much as a man expects to be admired."

"...the amiable vanity which knits us to those who are fond of us, and disinclines us to those who are indifferent."

I'm sure you've also noticed that Mrs. Cadwalader has a good deal more sense, and sensitivity, than most give her credit for. It was a kindness on her part to alert Chattem and so save him unnecessary embarassment and indignity.

Babi

CAROLYN: jump in and tell us what you think on any of the things we’ve discussed.

KLEO: then you know how I felt. At least, they didn’t take your scholarship away.

BABI: YES. I’ve been thinking we should have a contest to see which is our favorite of these expressions. Mine is: (p. 10 in Penguin):

“Women were expected to have weak opinions; but the great safeguard of society and domestic life was that opinions were not acted on. Sane people did what their neighbors did, so that if any lunatics were at large, one might know and avoid them”.

What is yours?

Is anyone else left with the feeling that these two deserve each other. And it could turn out to have been intended as a marriage made in heaven. Both are religiously minded. Casaubon talks of it as providential. What a thrill it must have been for him to write such a letter. He may not mention love. But he does bare his soul, and is himself surprised by what he finds. Of course he doesn't know exactly what he is getting into. Neither does Dorothea. It's a great credit to her intelligencee that she is able to read between the lines of her lover's eloquent expression of the scholarly, ascetic mind. This talk of need and unwasted affection might just win her heart. For the cynical among us it may look like a salvage operation involving an old man, but Dorothea sees deeper than that. He has lived a clean life, he assures her. No nasty secrets in his past, like most older bachelors probably have. Those unwasted affections would also be untried, suggesting unlimited potential for romantic and domestic engineering on her part. Well, that's premature. But an odd couple it will certainly turn out to be. At least Dorothea has the good sense not to answer in a similiar style. A simple yes written very legibly should suffice for now. But wasn't she overwhelmed by the letter of proposal. It's really extremely revealing. And heartfelt, bless him. I must admit the two letters left me howling with laughter. A second reading always sobers one up.

The narrator is none other than Mary Ann Evans, aka, George Eliot. She herself is the moat fascinating character in all her books. It's a real pleasure to get acquainted with her mind and art. Both very exceptional. And she has us hooked, by the looks of it...Flora

Now about that nonsense of marriage being a noose...like Mr Brooke says...but he's not a heavy in this book. Nothing he says is taken seriously like it should be.

Mr. Brooke holds very unkind views of females and has no resevations about expressing his somewhat socially acceptable views before his two nieces. Mr. Brooke represents an older way of thought, that is dying out, but still present; he is of past generations, who firmly believed women to be flightly and irresponsible, and hardly able to do work of merit. Mr. Brooke is very vocal on the theme of gender expectations, and airs many views typically held in his day. Perhaps it was this theme that prevented him from interfering with Dorthea's marriage. After all didn't Casaubon have similar views about women.

In contrast with Mr. Brooke is Sir James, who believes that Dorothea has valuable things to say, and has no compunctions about recognizing the merits of Dorothea's plans.

Perhaps after all was said and done, Dorthea belived more in Casaubon's faith and intellect and less than in herself and her own ideals. Was this an influence of Mr. Brooke's views?

"However," said Mrs. Cadwallader, first to herself and afterward to her husband, "I throw her over: there was a chance, if she had married Sir James, of her becoming a sane, sensible woman. He would never have contradicted her, and when a woman is not contradicted, she has no motive for obstinacy in her absurdities. But now I wish her joy of her hair shirt." (quote from chapter six.)

Mrs. Cadwallader sees things from an older womans point of view. She is wiser than the men that is for sure and she is a manipulator of ohters. Of course she feels it is for the others good. I totally understand (I think) what she means about D's personality now being changed and perhaps not for the better. I too would assume she would run all over someone like James becoming something of a bully and never admire his talents.

Now she truly has what her dreams have been about and we will see where it leads her.

I do think that both C and D have strong sexual feelings for each other though it is hard to detect in the authors complex sentences and outdated language. I don't think they either one know what they are feeling as they are both virgins. At this point perhaps they say "love" in the old pure Knightly romance meaning.

I think we have an omniscient author but there is another name for it when the author not only sees into all characters and divulges these motives, thoughts, inner feelings and then "comments on them". I do not remember from my English Lit class how that kind of author is referred to. Dickens and Thackeray did it all the time.

I use English muffins just like crumpets. They are not quite the same in flavor but toasted they are a good close substitute so if you are having tea with me that is what you will get with Philadelphia cream cheese with various flavorings. Also several jams and cucumber and watercress sandwiches are to be served at high tea. Faith

We were away visiting our son in L.A. and just returned last night. Today I read a wide sampling of the posts but not all. Anyhowwww I will try to relate to the first question asked re St. Theresa. If , by chance, I am repeating someone elses writings it is only because I diidn't read that post.

Eliot writes about the Mystic St T.."Here and there is born a Saint Theresa, Foundress of nothing, whose loving heartbeats and sobs after an unattained goodness tremble off and are dispersed among hindrances, instead of centering in some long-recognizable deed."

I think Eliot wanted us to focus on the fact that Dorothea, with all her good intentions really accomplishes nothing just as Causabon works for years and accomplishes nothing but words and more words.

Both of them put in Sisyphusian efforts that like Sisyphus himself accomplishes nothing but a repeat performance on the morrow. These are people wealthy enough to keep their heads in the clouds and have nothing much to worry about. Causabon is old enough to know better. Dorothea is young enough that we may hope she will outgrow this useless way of thinking and living and perhaps add something of real value to the world around her.

In strong contrast is Sir James who actually accomplishes things like building cottages for farmers (making Dorotheas ideas into reality) loving dogs and horses and in general bringing good will to those around him.

I'm only on page 76 and undoubtedly the plot will thicken and get deeper as we continue to follow these characters. But there mistakes make them real and keep us hoping for change.

Judy

FLORA: “Mary Ann Evans, aka, George Eliot ... is the moat fascinating character in all her books”. I agree completely.

ANNE: good points on Mr. Brooke’s views of women. And “Perhaps after all was said and done, Dorthea believed more in Casaubon's faith and intellect and less than in herself and her own ideals. Was this an influence of Mr. Brooke's views? “ Good question! I can’t help feeling that if she had trusted her own views more, things would have been different.

But look at the difference between how D. Is with Celia, and how she is with Casaubon. She has no trouble being the authority on what’s right with Celia, but apologizes for having a thought of her own to Casaubon. What does this say about HER views of the minds of men and women?

FAITH: ahh, sex. What are we to think of their feelings? As you say, we’re going to have to tease that out of hints and vague language. But, as PAT H pointed out, unlike Austen, Eliot knows that sex exists.

JUDY: WELCOME BACK. I’ll be going to LA next month to see my daughter. Don’t feel you have to read all the posts, it will bog you down.

“Both of them put in Sisyphusian efforts that like Sisyphus himself accomplishes nothing but a repeat performance on the morrow.” No, no one has pointed that out. Well put.

JOANP, I think Scrawler points out the reason for Dorothea's emotional reaction to the letter of proposal that most of us find unromantic: "Dorothea believed more in Casaubon's faith and intellect and less than in herself and her own ideals." She is so overwhelmed by his regard and feeling for her, no matter what the motivation may be -- he wants a secretary or confidant, a helpmate who will be there when he needs her and vanish when he doesn't. At this point in her life, she wants to be useful to her intellectual and moral superior, and in her young heart she believes that person is Casaubon. In her day that seemed to be the only way she could hope to fulfill her desire to lead a noble life. Perhaps she misses the boat in rejecting Sir James, who really wants to go ahead with her designs and plans for workers' housing. It is interesting that while she rejects him as a suitor, he spends no time licking his wounds, but returns to visit and to pursue their discussions about the houses. Eliot notes that an actual relaxed friendship seems to bloom between them after his desire to court her is squelched. Maybe that's an unusual occurrence in the Victorian era: a productive male --female friendship!

Off topic but as bagels are to Americans so crumpets and English muffins are to kiwis. Our shops are loaded with crumpets, round, oblong or square, and packets of different flavors of English muffins including plain, cheese or some with spices and fruit. They are a staple breakfast or supper treat to lots of kiwis. Bagels have not really caught on but I see Americans loading their trolleys with Bagels and one tried to get me to try them. I am gluten free anyhow these days but never took to the texture of bagels when I did eat them prior to having to give up gluten.

Carolyn

We've blocked in a few more days in the reading schedule this week to allow for the Labor Day break as soon as we opened. We have the rest of this week to catch up. - Good thoughts on Dorothea's and Casaubon's accomplishments of "nothing" - but words. Something we hadn't explored. Kind of funny, coming from an author, whose "business" is words! Welcome back, Judy.
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"...the amiable vanity which knits us to those who are fond of us, and disinclines us to those who are indifferent."

Pride and vanity seem to be overwhelming motivators in Eliot's charactors, don't they, Babi? Come to think of it, they continue to motivate all of us, one way or another...
As you point out, Mrs. Cadwallader has more common sense than most, though she does represent the old provincial ways and is as Fae points out, a manipulator, she seems a barometer of rational thinking compared to most of the others. Some of you have noted that no one seems to be listening to what others are saying in the novel. Even if anyone listened, they wouldn't hear truth - Have you noticed that just about everyone is saying the opposite of what he/she is thinking - whether intentional or not? Do we assume that when someone speaks they aren't really saying what they mean?
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Flora - "For the cynical among us it may look like a salvage operation involving an old man, but Dorothea sees deeper than that." And Fae, your always active imagination sees a sexual attraction between the two! I've noticed that Eliot's characters seem to be saying and doing one thing and the authorial voice in the background is showing us the opposite to be true. We can believe that Dorothea will bring out the best in her fellow and their relationship will be a partnership of the highest order BUT listen to the author to hear what she thinks is going on.(Faith: "there is another name for it when the author not only sees into all characters and divulges these motives, thoughts, inner feelings and then comments on them" Where's the Prof? This is exactly what I see going on, Fai...except the author seems to be providing contradictory comments to wht her characters are saying.

Did you notice the epigraph to Chapter V? The quote from Burton's Anatomy of Melancholy?

"Hard students are commonly troubled with gowts, catarrhs, rheums...bad eys,..and all such diseases as come by over-much sitting: they are most part lean, dry, ill-coloured..."

The omniscient author makes the observation that Dorothea is marrying a scholar - and the drying out process will continue. Of course D. doesn't see this - YET!
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Scrawler, yes, yes, yes! It is Mr. Brooke who is making most of the derogatory comments on women's minds and there stands our supposedly outspoken Dorothea - in silence! "Mr. Brooke is very vocal on the theme of gender expectations, and airs many views typically held in his day." Yes, but in making him a buffoon, Eliot is telling us that his views are WRONG and outdated!
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Jo, yes, Scrawler presents the reasons for Dorothea's emotional reaction to the "love letter" of engagement...but at the same time, the author is in the background, making sure we all realize the irony in that letter. Now that you mention it, this is a relaxed friendship budding between Sir James and Dorothea. They seem to have returned to where they were back when Dorothea believed he was interested in Celia. I suspect he will shift his marital attentions to Celia - since he is still hanging about the Grange? How long will he wait?

ps. Carolyn, the bagels are better for you than the crumpets, I'm told. And the butter doesn't dribble down your chin either.

pps. Dressless in Arlington.

"Perhaps after all was said and done, Dorthea believed more in Casaubon's faith and intellect and less than in herself and her own ideals. Was this an influence of Mr. Brooke's views? " Scrawler

I think that her uncle was genuinely surprised that Dorothea wanted to serve Mr. Casaubon's views, leaving her own in the deep shade she expected him to cast.

Thank you, Flora, Mr. Casaubon's letter was just fine under the circumstances. To profess love at this early stage would have floated as shallowly as it should have.

Kleo

No, crumpets are better for you because slicing bagels is the cause of many kitchen injuries. This does not happen with crumpets. In moderation crumpets are just fine. I eat one crumpet, which is about the size of a half bagel. Whereas bagels in America are served two halves all of the time. So, twice as much gluten and unrefined white flour and all in the bagel as the crumpet. Plus the cucumber slice adds a vegetable to the crumpet. Ta dah! Safety and an additional food group.

And, yes, I was delighted when I lived on Marine Corps bases because we always had Kiwi neighbors and they ate crumpets, with clotted cream out of a jar, with ricotta cheese, with jam, with butter, for breakfast, for evening snack, for tea.

Clotted cream is sweet, it's kinda like whole cream with the consistency of runny cottage cheese, but it's not as solid in its clots as cottage cheese at all. It's just an easy way to put cream on things, in my opinion.

I am going to go insane craving these foods and high tea and will probably put on two pounds a week. I demand we finish this sooner!

I don't mind the gentile pace of life during which these foods were eaten. High tea just speaks of appreciation of the little things in life. The manners link tells us it's not even proper to serve real food, only dainty bits will do. What could set the stage better for light conversation and pleasant company than high tea food? I think I will take high tea to work this week.

Kleo

How bout scones, jam and whipped cream. A Devonshire tea! Yummy.

Thinking it over today while rushing around, I realized (I am a little slow) that this book is about Middlemarch - this small English village in the 1830's and how all the characters fit into this basket. While Dorothea and her fate may be more central, (or more interesting to Eliot or the narrator) the fate of the others - like Celia's better adjusted ways - serves not only to contrast with Dorothea but as an example of what works and in what way it works.

Eliot is really excellent at playing off the characters against each other - lots to learn here - I like this part a lot.

But if Dorothea is more central, I wonder why, both from Eliot's viewpoint and from my viewpoint as what I think is a 'modern woman.

Also someone offered help with the "check subscription" option - which I tried, please could someone tell me what to expect, it seems to do nothing. Thanks.

BBC: If Middlemarch is the only discussion you are in, you don't need "Check subscriptions". You can go right into the Middlemarch discussion. But if you are in a lot of discussions, this really helps checking to see which ones have new messages.

At top and bottom of the page are some tan square "buttons", starting with "Check subscription". If you have subscribed to Middlemarch, the next one will read "change subscriptions." If you haven't subscribed yet, the next one will read "subscribe."

TO USE IT: in any discussion, click on "check subscriptions." If there has been a new post in any discussion to which you are subscribed, it will take you there. The first post you see will be the last one you read, followed by the new ones. After you've read all the posts, click "check subscriptions" again: it will take you to the next discussion with new posts. If you have read all your new posts, it will take you to a page telling you that, and letting you either "check subscriptions again or go back. I BOOKMARK that page. Then when I want to check for new posts, I bring it up. and click. Shorter than going into "Books and Literature" and finding my discussions.

If you haven't subscribed:

click on the "button" that says "subscribe."

In the new page,click on the box next to "check messages.

scroll down, and click next to "OK".

It will send you back to the Middlemarch discussion. The button that said "subscribe" should now say "change subscription".

I've been invited to tea at new tea shop this Friday! Hope there's clotted cream -- had it years ago at a tea in local hotel. I may look up a high tea experience in NYC next month.
bbcesana, when you click on "check subscription," you will be taken to any discussion to which you have already subscribed, provided there have been new postings since you were there. If there haven't you will be informed that there is nothing new, and then you should click on OK. Then you will find that you are still at the site where you first clicked on "check subscription." Hope that helps!

"You must not judge of Celia's feeling from mine. I think she likes these small pets. She had a tiny terrier once, which she was very fond of. It made me unhappy, because I was afraid of treading on it. I am rather short-sighted."

Dorothea continually tries to turn Chettam's affection and attention toward her sister, assuring him, for example, in the quote above, that her sister likes small dogs.

She then says something very revealing about herself--she tends to step on things, blunder into situations.

I think this is exactly what she does when she fixes on Casaubon. It is a blunder to see in him what she does. Mr. Brooke says that he never saw much in Casaubon, idea-wise:

"You like him, eh?" said Mr. Brooke, without showing any surprise, or other emotion. "Well, now, I've known Casaubon ten years, ever since he came to Lowick. But I never got anything out of him--any ideas, you know. However, he is a tiptop man and may be a bishop--that kind of thing, you know, if Peel stays in. And he has a very high opinion of you, my dear."

Mr. Brooke is a man of many ideas who apparently never goes very deep into anything and even HE hasn't gotten any ideas out of Casaubon.

However, since he is looking out for his ward, he does note that Casaubon may become a bishop (and he has land) and therefore, from a material point of view, will be able to support Dorothea.

Maryal

Deems: Re: "She had a tiny terrier once, which she was very fond of. It made me unhappy, because I was afraid of treading on it. I am rather short-sighted." "She then says something very revealing about herself--she tends to step on things, blunder into situations."

Interesting. I took D's words here literally. I thought she was saying she was near-sighted.

marnie--I think she is actually near-sighted too. But I think she is near-sighted in a figurative sense as well. She can't see what's ahead for her if she marries Casaubon.

I belierve that Mr Brooke is very much aware of the intelligence of women and their importance and influence in society. The 'derogatory' things he says about women seem always to be used defensibely, when he's not sure of his ground, when he's worrying about his position. He is an interesting character. He seems to have tried a lot of things when he was young. Just like his niece. They share something in their genes. Just like their anscestor of Cromwell's day - when another 'independent', such as Mr Brooke talks about, navigated his way about in unsettled affairs, in troubled waters, working both sides of the street, and coming out on top in the end. There is something to be said for a Dorothea/ Casaubon match. It's only second best, as far as Mr Brooke is concerned. Mr B might need a speechwriter someday. Mr C might be useful. Or is that Mrs Cadwallader's suggestion?

Chapter six, with Mrs Cadwallader walking us through it, certainly has a lot of clues as to how this provincial society works. With its attitudes and mores, its class distinctions and its prejudices and its accepted social roles. 'Papist', I take it, is used derogatively. Better to have no truck with them as Mrs Cadwallader suggests to Mr Brooke. The Catholic question, it seems, must be about political rights and such. The mention of Guy Fox celebrations is a reminder that after centuries the Catholics were still thought of, and feared, as terrorists. After getting caught trying to blow up the Houses of Parliament in 1605.

By the way, can anyone explain the pecking order among curates, bishops, rectors and vicars?

Eliot would seem to have known about sex, considered as that attractive power between men and women. The little bio material I've read so far suggests she may have gone from one affair to another, making full use of her warm, sympathetic nature and her mental agility...Flora

marnie--Here's the other quote I was looking for to support my idea that Dorothea is near-sighted in more than one way. Celia says to her sister, "Well, I am sorry for Sir James. I thought it right to tell you, because you went on as you always do, never looking just where you are, and treading in the wrong place." Here the treading in the wrong place is clearly metaphorical.

Yes, I think Eliot is rather graciously throwing us a bone here. Dorothea is short-sighted literally and figuratively. She can't see what's before her, a man actualizing her dreams. Or maybe she sees him as the dog underfoot and can't see the real dog underfoot.

Kleo

Heck, I think it's Bishop, Rector, Vicar, Curate, from top down. A rector is in charge of a parish, and a vicar in charge of a church and its members. I thought a curate was lower than a vicar, in charge of the physical church while the vicar is like the priest of the church. Any Anglicans in here?

Someone could look this up while I got to work,

Kleo

I say there, with all these crumpets and bagels floating about you don't suppose I could get a muffin or two. It's a childhood memory of mine, eating muffins hot from the gas oven. Ah! Well, I suppose not.

Dorothea bristles when Mr. Brooke belittles her capabilities, when she herself believes that she can do no more than an assistant to another man's work. Dorothea adopts older views about women. There is a contradiction in Dorothea; on one hand, she totally underestimates her intellect and her ability to be her own guide, and on the other hand, she trusts herelf with making workable plans to benefit a great number of people. That Dorothea doesn't trust herself intellectually, yet values her ability to create soloutions is a character issue. We will have to wait and see if this issue is finally resolved.

Gender roles and expectations: These are especially relevant to Dorothea. Middlemarch society has very defined ideas of what people of each gender should do within the society, and people, especially women, who deviate from this norm, are looked down upon. Dorothea is tolerated because she is of good family and does not disrupt the society she is in. However, she faces a great deal of pressure to change herself, conform to other's ideas, and submit herself to male leadership at all times.

I have just finished chapter one. First impression is that Dorothea lives in a world of fantasy. Her eyes see the world in a way that is coloured by the fantasies in her head. Celia may not be as well read but she is a lot smarter in that she lives in the real world.

Carolyn

Hey, ANNE, you missed it. At the very beginning (Post 3) I told you there were muffins. They won't be hot by now, but maybe you could get the someone to warm one up for you.

A good point about the contradiction in D. And CAROLYN yes. Do you know people like that?

Playing catch up with all the interesting observations here today. Good one, Maryal! Nothing slips by you (when it comes to dog metaphors!) - Dorothea's afraid of little dogs - she tends to step on things, blunders into situations." "...because I was afraid of treading on it. I am rather short-sighted."

And then Celia's comment - "because you went on as you always do, never looking just where you are, and treading in the wrong place." I can't help thinking of another of Celia's observations earlier - "You always see what nobody else sees...yet you never see what is quite plain."
Dorothea doesn't see Casaubon as others see him, she doesn't see that Sir James would be a better match, she doesn't see little dogs when they are right in front of her. The question is - what DOES Dorothea see? Carolyn, after reading just the first chapter, you've picked up on what Eliot has been saying from the start. -"Her eyes see the world in a way that is coloured by the fantasies in her head."

Anne, yes, I agree..."there is a contradiction in Dorothea - as you stated

"she totally underestimates her intellect and her ability to be her own guide, and on the other hand, she trusts herelf with making workable plans to benefit a great number of people. That Dorothea doesn't trust herself intellectually, yet values her ability to create soloutions is a character issue."

Do you wonder at Eliot's intent here - she seems to be suggesting that Celia is the practical, level-headed one, that Dorothea the rather ineffective dreamer dependent on a man to "actualize her dreams" as Kleo describes her. bbc asks - "If Dorothea is more central, I wonder why, both from Eliot's viewpoint and from my viewpoint as what I think is a 'modern woman." Doesn't Eliot seem to be painting a negative portrait of Dorothea in these first chapters? I think maybe we need to consider her character a work in progress. Perhaps she will grow as the story moves on.

Flora - we have hardly touched on the "Catholic question"...but clearly it is a subject that is of great interest and concern in Middlemarch these days. As far as I can see, Robert Peel was against the emancipation of the Irish, but when Daniel O"Connell was elected to Parliament and Peel changed his anti-Irish (Catholic) position, much to the consternation of some of the Middlemarchers. Uncle Brooke maintains an "independent" stand. There are many references to the "Catholic question" and the Papists in the first chapters. I'm sure we will hear more. Casaubon has written something about it...which will probably advance his position, but I'm not clear what he wrote. Does anyone understand this? What would be the Anglican position on the Catholic Question?

Good question, JoanK - do you know any body like these characters? With whom do you relate at this point, Celia or Dorothea? Great posts! I just love this! Keep them coming! The crumpets too! Whose turn to bring the breakfast?

JP I will have to refuse to bring kippers or soft boiled eggs, ugh!Oh how I love those hearty oatmeals from Scotland though. And I am sure there is always a platter of bacon and toasted breads, and muffins so I could bring those. faith

I don't see too much pressure on Dorothea to conform to other's ideas, much less a willingness to submit herself to male leadership. She's only nineteen, but very serious about life in general, and in a turmoil over what to do with her own. She is making her own decisions. She's playing the conventional mating game, while feeling convinced that marriage with Casaubon will permit her to grow intellectually and spiritually. A husband yes, but also a guru. What an opportunity. For that even her housing project for the poor is put on hold.

The women in Middlemarch don't seem to be dominated by the males. Far from it. Take, for example, Mrs Cadwallader. She seems to be running the parish and not her husband the rector. Thanks, Kleo. She is the matchmaker also. She saw enough in Dorothea to see her as a good wife for Sir James. Everybody may be shaking their head over Dorothea's choice, but nobody really knows her yet. She has lived in Middlemarch for only a year. She and Celia are newcomers and have hardly learned how to fit in.

Robert Peel is against Catholic Emancipation, a very specific set of laws and one big law for England and Ireland under union. This is not a synonym for Irish Emancipation.

Kleo

Indeed, Dorothea is only 19, Day Tripper. How can she possibly stand up against thousands of years of human existence? That she has ideals beyond her ability to even see them in reality is commendable in my opinion. That she has not a snowball's chance in Hades to be the single woman to actualize the whole of them does not count against her much.

Dream on, Dorothea, and fail all you want while trying.

Kleo

There was a woman in either the late 1700s or early 1800s who was emancipated and had very much the same privileges in her household as we have today. Her name was Mary something or other and she was the first feminist as we know it. I wish my brain worked better so that I could remember her surname.It was Woll----- something. We did a discussion on the womens movement here in SN recently and I was amazed to read about her in a book I borrowed I will see if I still have it aha! I still have the book. Her name was Mary Wollstonecraft and its in the chapter 1792-1837. She wrote a book called A Vindication of the Rights of Women. Needless to say Mary's husband was also terribly unconventional.

Carolyn

Wrote a wee little book called Frankenstein.

Kleo

AHA! Someone wants to talk about the "Catholic Question!" Flora, - "It must be about political rights and such....after centuries the Catholics were still thought of and feared as terrorist. After getting caught trying to blow up the houses of parliament in 1605."

That's a good start...I would like to understand how the issue affects the residents of Middlemarch, now in the 1830's. I read the link to Robert Peal and 19th century politics...and therein is another link to the Irish Emancipation I found this on that page which may be helpful:

"Following the Reformation in England and the establishment of the Church of England, the Test and Corporations Acts were passed which prevented all non-Anglicans from holding public office. Only Anglicans were allowed to vote and sit in parliament. These laws also applied in Ireland even though some 80% of the population were Catholics."

Now, IF the Test and Corporation Acts are repealed, it would seem that some of our Anglican landed gentry in Middlemarch might not be too thrilled...

It seems to me that the only one who is leaning on Dorothea to become a submissive wife...is Dorothea herself. The other young ladies seem to be more interested in "appearing" to submit to get hold of a rung on the social ladder.

What, no kippers? None?

Phew! I am so glad we are moving slowly with this discussion. I will be popping in and out sporadically during September, due to my schedule, and I did want to catch up on all the posts because I found so many interesting ideas which do not match mine! Just a few of my thoughts on subjects broached…

I do think the narrator is omniscient and speaks to the reader directly. In Chapter VI, we have this quote: “Good God! It is horrible! He is no better than a mummy!” (The point of view has to be allowed for, as that of a blooming and disappointed rival.) I think it is the narrator talking to the reader during the part in parentheses.

My thoughts on Dorothea, Chettam, and Casaubon: I think Dorothea is making the right decision is choosing Casaubon. OK, he is not the most physically attractive, but I think many women would admit that their husbands were not the most physically attractive man they ever dated. I found Casaubon’s letter to Dorothea, where he expresses his feelings for her, to be charming. I thought it was perfectly in keeping with the times, his character, and what Dorothea would expect and demand from a suitor. In it, he acknowledges that he is not young and that he had essentially given up on finding anyone, which leads me to believe he does have realistic, yet genuinely fond, feelings for Dorothea. He is about 25 years older, which could be a burden for the marriage down the road. That is a negative. However, he and Dorothea seem to be made for each other. I am so glad she stood up against Mr. Brooke’s questioning. I say to Dorothea, “Good for you!”

This expression in Chapter VI puzzled me: “But now I wish her joy of her hair shirt.” It is near the end of the chapter, just above the quote indented, “Smile like the knot of cowslips on the cliff,…” Any ideas on what it means?

Thanks for continuing to comment on the quotes at the beginning of each chapter. My interpretations on a few are very different. Here they are. I won’t repeat the quotes here for the sake of brevity:

Chapter I: I didn’t understand this quote at all. Maybe The Maid’s Tragedy, the source, is what is referred to, as someone suggested.

Chapter II: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Dorothea finds Casaubon more attractive than Chettam.

Chapter III: Dorothea was the goddess, the object of desire of both men. OR It is strange for Dorothea to be more interested in Casaubon than Chettam.

Chapter IV: Dorothea had a hand in her own engagement. She forged it herself (“we forge ourselves”).

Chapter VI: Mrs. Cadwallader as town gossip or busybody.

I would like to get the geography a little straight. Ireland and England are not the same country. There are Catholics in England, not just Ireland. What Peel is dealing with is Catholic Emancipation, as the title of the page the link labeled "Irish Emancipation" shows. At this time, 1829, Ireland and England were united. Part of the union was the deal for Catholic Emancipation.

"My thoughts on Dorothea, Chettam, and Casaubon: I think Dorothea is making the right decision is choosing Casaubon. OK, he is not the most physically attractive, but I think many women would admit that their husbands were not the most physically attractive man they ever dated. I found Casaubon’s letter to Dorothea, where he expresses his feelings for her, to be charming. I thought it was perfectly in keeping with the times, his character, and what Dorothea would expect and demand from a suitor. In it, he acknowledges that he is not young and that he had essentially given up on finding anyone, which leads me to believe he does have realistic, yet genuinely fond, feelings for Dorothea. He is about 25 years older, which could be a burden for the marriage down the road. That is a negative. However, he and Dorothea seem to be made for each other. I am so glad she stood up against Mr. Brooke’s questioning. I say to Dorothea, “Good for you!” " Laura D.

AND I say to LauraD for putting all of my thoughts on the matter into words so well, "Good for you! and me!"

I think she's a brainless twit for marrying the old codger, really. But I think she reasoned as best as her society allowed her to.

Kleo

...who says, "-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- LauraD - 07:18pm Sep 7, 2005 PT (#168 of 169) Misc. Thoughts - Catching Up

Phew! I am so glad we are moving slowly with this discussion"

I MUST say DITTO!! (smile)

Alliemae

Re: “But now I wish her joy of her hair shirt.”

Wearing a hair shirt is a means of self-mutilation.

A hair shirt, according to the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia online, is "A garment of rough cloth made from goats' hair and worn in the form of a shirt or as a girdle around the loins, by way of mortification and penance.....During the early ages of Christianity the use of hair-cloth, as a means of bodily mortification and as an aid to the wearer in resisting temptations of the flesh, became very common, not only amongst the ascetics and those who aspired to the life of perfection, but even amongst ordinary lay people in the world, who made it serve as an unostentatious antidote for the outward luxury and comfort of their lives."

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07113b.htm

Marni

“But now I wish her joy of her hair shirt.”
Laura, wearing a hair shirt under one's clothing would be an act of penance, supposedly a practice in medieval times, especially in religious orders. The discomfort was suffering chosen (or assigned!)as a way of paying for sins. For all I know, it may still be a practice in certain circles, but I hope not! Mrs. Cadwallader thinks Dorothea has chosen suffering by insisting upon her union with Casaubon.
Your reaction to Dorothea's choice is interesting. Perhaps we will all find out it was indeed the right choice for her, if the marriage becomes an opportunity for her to fulfill her dreams of a noble life.

Hi,

I will try and answer your question # 3 . Part one you ask ,"Is there anyone who sees D. as she is?" No one can see D for who she is since she is a creature in the process of becoming who she will be. Celia attempts to help her sister but she is even younger and the task is beyond her. D.choices and mistakes will forge her into who she will become. This transformation is what holds my interest. She is a true "heroine" in the sense that we expect so much of her since she is both beautiful and intelligent. Wether she will realize her potential is the question.

Part 2:"Does Eliot treat her with sympathy or ridicule? Neither ! Eliot treats her with the respect due her. D. is a creature of her times. She strives for much but,except for Celia, is alone in the world. There is no one to say"Go to University and figure out what you want to do with your life."

With all our modern advantages how many mistakes did each of us make at 18or 19 or 20? Eliot leads us by the hand and bids us watch and wait-painful as it may be at times.

Judy

I see trouble lying ahead in that marriage, not just because Casaubon is 25 years older either, but because he seems never to have been in love, according to what we have read so far, and because he courts a woman with rhetoric. Dorothea who is young, beautiful, romantic and bright, has not met her match yet. Sir James did not fit her ideal as a husband, but if she thinks Casaubon does, it is because she has not reached the peak of womanhood yet, where rhetoric will no longer satisfy her passionate nature.

Question No. 1. "Why would Eliot choose the story of St. Theresa's thirst for "an epic life of spiritual grandeur" as the Prelude to Middlemarch? In what way does it prepare us for what lies ahead for Dorothea Brooke?"

Although it is not very evident, I can't forget that Dorothea seems to have been raised Catholic and her entourage is Protestant, a major problem if you ask me.

Laura, it's good to hear from you! In these early chapters, do you get the impression that the omniscient author is more sympathetic to Celia than to Dorothea? Do WE all agree that Dorothea did the right thing in choosing Casaubon - given her choices, her temperament and the times? Aren't you squirming a bit watching her accept the role of the "submissive" wife - while Sir James offers her so much more freedom to express her views?

I still keep thinking of Fae's observation that there IS some sexual attraction between these two. I don't see it, but perhaps it IS there - Does Dorothy seem at all inclined to want a family with Casaubon? Is that ever mentioned, except in the understanding that Mr. Brooke's estate is to go to Dorothea's first son? (Is it son, or child, I forget. Would a daughter inherit?) What if Dorothea and Casaubon have no child, will Celia's child/son inherit the estate then?

Mrs. Cadwallader's comment that Dorothea has chosen to wear a hairshirt in choosing to live her life with Casaubon indicates to me that she does not understand Dorothea's choice - except that her religious leanings have caused her to seek a martyr's life of sacrifice and self-denial. Mrs. C's views seem to represent the community's, yes? Judy, your comment that there is NO ONE who begins to understand Dorothea indicates just how alone she really is. While she doesn't know herself, at this point, I think she KNOWS her reasons, her mind, but she has NO confidante. Perhaps this is how MAEvans felt when she first came to Coventry? Isolated and alone.

Eloise, I have to agree with you, Dorothea's references and practices seem "foreign" to her Protestant "entourage" - are there Anglicans who hold these views? They do seem quite "Catholic" to me. There seems to be no one in Middlemarch who understands where Dorothea got her ideas. How about Celia?

About how the much-debated "Catholic issue" - if the existing acts which prevented all non-Anglicans from holding public office, to vote and sit in parliament are repealed, how might this affect the status quo in Middlemarch? I'm interested in learning more about Casaubon's article...presumedly against repealing these laws, but maybe not. We're told that Mr. Brooke is considering "standing for Middlemarch" - and it is hinted that he is on the side of Robert Peel, who has just withdrawn his opposition to repealing the old acts. But Mr. Brooke is not to be taken seriously, do you get that impression? Most of the upper circles seem to be for maintaining the status quo? Why?

I see there are still some crumpets left...didn't anyone remember the kippers? I need a good, fortifying breakfast before heading out again to the "shoppes" for that dress!

In our book, the expression is used figuratively, but people like Sir (ST) Thomas More wore a hair shirt. Only his daughter, who periodically washed it, knew. Part of wearing a hair shirt was to keep it secret, sort of like praying in secret and not going around the streets advertising your piety, I guess.

Maryal, maybe that's what Dorothea is planning...to sacrifice some of her dreams and goals of accomplishing fine and noble acts - acts, and pursue the knowledge knowledge that Casaubon can provide - while wearing that shirt of sacrifice? If so, does she REALIZE what she is doing?

I don't think so, JoanP. But I think the narrator knows.

Dorothea reminds me of women in the fifties who real focus was often shining in the reflected light of their husbands.

The problems were many--sometimes the man wasn't successful despite how attentive the wife was and sometimes even when the man was successful the wife came to realize that she had lived her life through her husband.

"Aren't you squirming a bit watching her accept the role of the "submissive" wife - while Sir James offers her so much more freedom to express her views?"

Squirming a bit? Blech. Sexual attraction? Blech. Lust on one part may pop up, but no way do I see mutual sexual attraction.

Did Dorothea make the right choice? Did she have the right choice to make? She simply had two rather limited choices. She was at an age to marry in her times.

Kleo

I just saw in my TV guide that tonight on the History International Channel at 9:00 p.m. Mary Wollstonecraft will be profiled.

Marni

Thanks for the heads up on Mary Wollstonecraft!

Alliemae

I suppose that in those Victorian times (and at other times as well) certain young girls/women of 'lofty mind' felt, presumably subconsciously, the need to divert their 'passionate' budding sensual selves to something which in their minds was 'worthy' or even 'pre-destined'.

Believeing they were not of the 'common herd' for whatever reason, they wouldn't allow themselves the flirting, gossiping and daydreaming about young gentlemen as the other young ladies did to keep those blossoming tides at bay.

But if Dorothea had married Chettam they would have had their passion for the houses and the people in common. And as tender and thoughtful as Sir James was to Dorothea and as smitten as he seemed to be, their marriage might have blossomed and then, having a 'safe place' so to speak in which to express her obviously generous and passionate side, Dorothea might have found marriage to Chettam very fulfilling.

Can you tell I like Chettam better than Casaubon?

I hope I'm not sounding like one of those people who say, "All she needs is a good man!" I can just as easily see Dorothea in a good, old-fashioned 'Boston Marriage' and once involved achieving the same fulfillment.

Alliemae

Frankly, I'm mystified by this notion. Please point me in the direction of finding where you saw this in the book.

Mrs Cadwallader is making out a joyless prospect for Dorothea. Mortification and penance, according to the definition. This is not what D sees ahead. Far from it:

'Her whole soul was possessed by the fact that a fuller life was opening before her: she was a neophyte about to enter on a higher grade of initiation. She was going to have room for the energies which stirred uneasily under the dimness and pressure of her own ignorance and the pettey peremptoriness of the world's habits.'

Dorothea is going into this thing with eyes wide open. It's as Celia says, a continuation of D's interests in wanting to know, begun in listening to the Swiss churchman's lectures on the Albigensians, the rebels of 13/14thC. I can't see how Laura and others can give D a Catholic upbringing. I don't see any evidence. Mr Brooke first placed the two young nieces with an English family, and then several years with someone in Switzerland, the home of Calvinism, very Protestant and very Evangelical. But she seems to be accepted as Church of England by everyone in Middlemarch. Isn't she? She's looking forward to an interesting, stimulating life with Casaubon. Much as, say, whatshername, who, despite being married, went off to live with Voltaire. Look at the eager souls who ran off to live with Mahatma Gandhi.

This damn omnisient narrator is prejudicing us all against poor Casaubon. She has everyone shocked about D's prospects, Shuddering and shaking their heads. But it's still the narrator who gets them to express these negative thoughts. As for Mrs Cadwallader wishing D 'joy' of the hair shirt...Mrs Casaubon is mad because Dorothea has let her down. She was meant for Sir James. Who was counting on Dorothea giving up a lot of her notions once he made her the Lady of the Manor.

Dorothea, it seems to me, is like many other women who are attracted to someone like Casaubon. He has been and is engaged in a very worthwhile endeavour to increase knowledge and understanding. He has had no time to look around for anything else. And the attraction he feels seem totally new to him. Read his letter again. It's an amazing document. Or a male version of the bio/clock syndrome?

Flora

JOAN P: I JUST REALIZED. MOTHER-OF-THE-BRIDE/GROOM DRESSES ARE OUR MODERN EQUIVALENT OF THE HAIR SHIRT! Mine is still hanging in the closet after 10 years. I'm going to throw it away at once!!

ALLIEMAE: “Can you tell I like Chettam better than Casaubon? “ Yes, I can. Am I the only one who likes Chattem, but thinks he’s all wrong for D. She doesn’t respect him; how can you love someone you don’t respect?

FLORA: “This @#$% omniscient narrator is prejudicing us all against poor Casaubon”. True, but don’t forget at one point Eliot says (paraphrased – I don’t have my book here) that just because D. is imagining the reasons for her love doesn’t mean that Casaubon doesn’t deserve it. Eliot is very aware that she is stacking the deck against him, and calls attention to it.

“He has been and is engaged in a very worthwhile endeavor to increase knowledge and understanding”. Yes. Should we judge him on the worthwhileness of that effort or on whether he makes a good husband?

When a girl of nineteen reads a letter from her intended groom and then falls to her knees in a partial swoon, feeling pale and also faint, and excited at her prospects at the same time...I am inclined to say she is experiencing a "sexual attraction". It is no matter what the object of the attraction looks like nor how old he is etc. he is the object upon which her hormones are locked and she may cover it all in grand and passionate glory of devoting her life to a great man still I know what I think "moves" her. If you read his letters carefully you will find that Casaubon is also thinking about his fiancé in tender ways and wondering if he has been wrong in overrating the male drive as he refers to it. He is now sure D will give him all the wifely submissiveness he desires..ie: sex. You need to understand the way Eliot writes I guess to get some of the underlying messages she sends. I think she herself knew a great deal about sexuality and the need in that society to cover ones desires up with florid language and hifalutin' ideals. Oh my now I sound like I think I understand more than maybe I do.

I have broken down and brought kippers for tomorrows breakfast just because Joan p seems set on eating them but I will stick to my oatmeal. I wonder if they served food on that train. Probably not since it was a short trip. fai

Oh, drat! I was all primed to jump in here re. the Casaubon/Brooke relationship, and realized that I was ahead of schedule! My information is found well past Ch. VI, and is therefore inadmissible before the court. I reserve my findings until later.

DAYTRIPPER SAYS: Dorothea is going into this thing with eyes wide open. I think it would be more accurate to say that Dorothea is going into this thing with certain expectations. If these expectations are realistic, then she would be reasonably justified in her decision. The question is, of course,...are they?

Babi

"Dorothea is going into this thing with eyes wide open."

I think Dorothea is going into this thing based on a fantasy she has concocted in her own head. She appears to be destined for disillusionment!

Yeah, I finally understand the Catholic issue! Thanks for the links. I can see why there is so much discussion about the issue in Middlemarch, given that the Catholic Emancipation would give voice and vote to a group without power now. Townspeople are afraid of the power shift that could occur.

As far as Dorothea having Catholic tendencies, it seems to be an inference based on Dorothea and Celia having a French teacher and the French were Catholic. I can’t find it in the book now, but I seem to remember something like that.

Thank you to Jo and Marni for clarifying the meaning of hair shirt. It never occurred to me that it was a shirt made of hair. I thought it must be an idiomatic expression. LOL at myself and at Mrs. Cadwallader for wishing Dorothea the joy of her hair shirt! And thanks for all the interpretive meanings of the hair shirt. I think it is very symbolic and a symbol I would have missed without the comments from all of you.

Jo said, “For all I know, it may still be a practice in certain circles, but I hope not!” I wonder if you are thinking of the garment that the member of Opus Dei wore in The DaVinci Code? He practiced physical self punishment (I hope I am remembering correctly).

JoanK said, “Am I the only one who likes Chattem, but thinks he’s all wrong for D. She doesn’t respect him; how can you love someone you don’t respect?” No, you aren’t. Respect is exactly the word I would have chosen too. Chettam is out to impress Dorothea, but she is so unimpressed by him and can’t take him seriously as a suitor. She can’t respect him.

Joan P. asked,” In these early chapters, do you get the impression that the omniscient author is more sympathetic to Celia than to Dorothea? Do WE all agree that Dorothea did the right thing in choosing Casaubon - given her choices, her temperament and the times? Aren't you squirming a bit watching her accept the role of the "submissive" wife - while Sir James offers her so much more freedom to express her views?”

I would say the omniscient author is more sympathetic to Celia because she conforms to societal norms.

Do we need to have a consensus on which man is right for Dorothea? In my opinion, we do not. I find evidence in the text to support all views presented in this forum and the evidence to support Dorothea choosing Chettam is persuasive --- it had me swaying. As was mentioned earlier, Dorothea is a complex character and I would go so far as to say that the author would like us to weight all the pros and cons of both relationships, just as we are doing, and as Dorothea does.

I didn’t get the impression Dorothea is going to have to be more submissive with Casaubon than she would have with Chettam. Did I miss something?

There is no mention of Jane Austen in the Index of Ermarth's book George Eliot.

I have to be real honest and say that had I not read on the back of the book that Dorothea's choice is going to be a failure, I'm not sure if I'd think she was choosing the right man or not. Far as I'm concerned, that back blurb may well have colored my thinking on the relationships so far. Hard to unring that bell, know what I mean?

When a girl of nineteen reads a letter from her intended groom and then falls to her knees in a partial swoon, feeling pale and also faint, and excited at her prospects at the same time...I am inclined to say she is experiencing a "sexual attraction

Ah, yes, I did see that, Faith. I guess I really just didn't read it as sexual attraction. So far, I'm not feeling any kind of sexual vibes from anyone.

I have never swooned yet! I think they swooned from their corsets being too tight when they were trying to impress the man they were after!

I think they swooned from their corsets being too tight when they were trying to impress the man they were after!

OMG!! LOL!!!

The women in those days wore corsets laced up really tight to give them an hourglass look regardless of the way they were made. It did cause fainting or so called swooning.

Carolyn

Carolyn: yes. Aren't you glad we don't have to wear those corsets! But also, swooning was what young ladies were supposed to do, so in novels, they always did! I don't know if they did in real life or not.

Yes, we will all find out in a few weeks whether D.'s choice was a good one. There's no point wondering too much.

Does anyone agree with Flora that Eliot's "authorial voice" is unfair to Casaubon? Who likes what Eliot does with it and who doesn't?

All of you who are "Reading Around the World": the new proposed discussion is up. Don't forget to sign up -- even though you voted for it, they still need a quorum. I think from what those who read it have said that this will be a fascinating book.

the SHADOW OF THE WIND

I almost swooned recently in a lingerie shop when I saw that girdles are back. Yuck! I'm so glad I can just let my stomach hang out and not worry too much (although I do worry a little!!)

Re Dorothea's religious fervor: pg 8 - "In Mr Brooke the hereditary strain of Puritan energy was clearly in abeyance; but in his niece Dorothea it glowed alike through faults and virtues..." - pg 9 - D "prayed fervidly as if she thought herself living in the time of the Apostles - who had strange whims of fasting like a Papist..."

About D. and her expectations - pg 8 - "she was enamoured of intensity and greatness, and rash in embracing whatever seemed to her to have those aspects; likely to seek martyrdom, to make retractions, and then to incur martyrdom after all in a quarter where she had not sought it."

pg 10 - To D. the "really delightful marriage must be that where your husband was a sort of father, and could teach you even Hebrew, if you wished it."

D. at this point is romantically inclined towards older brilliant men such as John Milton, Richard Hooker, John Locke. She has a picture in mind. To D. - pg 16 - Casaubon's "iron-grey hair and his deep eye-sockets made him resemble the portrait of Locke." It simply isn't the right time for Chettam. He doesn't fit D's picture. Also, she pictures him with Celia.

Marni

Eliot's voice is not fair - in my opinion - to either Dorothea or Casaubon, and that is why I initially asked about the narrator. Why does she seem to make Dorothea obviously a central figure so difficult.

Why does the narrator sometimes represent Celia for example so reasonably and Dorothea so extremely and the same for Casaubon - although he does do some good things, I fail to have a bit of sympathy for the man. I would think an 'omniscent' narrator would be more impartial

So then I have to try to ask what Eliot was trying to accomplish - why is she telling the story this way. I am not sure the issue is whether or not I like it - since it seems clear at this point that I likely would not like it, but why Eliot does it. There are many pages ahead.

Maybe that is why this is a novel for grown-ups since there may not be easy answers.

from the New Kid on the Block

Causabon strikes me as a "Prig". A man so full of himself that he has no real room for others.Nothing good can come from hooking up with such a one as he.

As far as D.s religous beleifs on page 13 (of my book) there is the sentence ...Dorothea said to herself that Mr. Causabon was the most interesting man she had ever seen, not except even Monsieur Liret, the Vaudois clergyman who had given conferences on the history of the Waldenses.( The Waldenses were a religous sect in France whose heretical practices are linked to the Protestant Reformation).. SO perhaps D. had a crush on this other brilliant man she had learned from and transfers that interest to Causabon. There is a link not only between the men but in the somewhat blurred notion of which religion she actually followed.

This makes me think again of starting the book with a story about a Female Saint. Nothing is in Eliots book by chance so I keep thinking about it more and more.

Sorry to say that I spent three weeks in Wales, Scotland and England this summer but was never served a crumpet or a kipper. Learned about coddled eggs though and visited a brewery where they made Malt Whiskey.Also tasted a Rutabaga for the first time in Wales.

Judy

Kippers! Yay, Fay! Kippers along with the oatmeal! Now who's bringing the muffins - the crumpets? A fine morning it is!

Come to think of it, Judy, I don't remember being served kippers anywhere in Scotland, except with the fantastic hot breakfasts that were covered in our hotel rates...

I would like to know more about the Waldenses in France, whose "heretical practices are linked to the Protestant Reformation," Judy. Like you, I believe that Eliot must have had her reason for including this detail. While poking around looking for information on Dorothea's strange religious practices, Marni, I came across this in the link in the heading to Mary Ann Evan's biography...

"From thirteen to sixteen she attended a school in Coventry run by Mary and Rebecca Franklin, the daughters of a Baptist minister. Religious dissent was strong in the midlands at this time; there were chapels of all denominations: Baptist, Wesleyan, Unitarian, Quaker, Congregationalist. Though her own family belonged to the middle-of-the-road Anglican community, Mary Anne herself was strongly evangelical.

Mary Ann Evans's piety at the age of twenty was remarkable even in an age of pious evangelicalism among the provincial middle and lower classes."

I realize that this does not answer the question about the seemingly Catholic implications in Dorothea's behavior. Do you suppose that Eliot exchanged her own "evangelical" influences for Catholic to make them fit into the story better - as the "Catholic question" seems to be much on the minds of the Middlemarchers at this time?

bbc, you make such a good observation concerning the omniscient narrator, who not only "sees" all, but sees more than others see - as Celia tells Dorothea she sees what others cannot see. Isn't it becoming clearer that the author is telling her own story through Dorothea? That would explain why she portrays her as so "difficult". Aren't we always harder on ourselves than on others?

I was playing with the numbers - Eliot was born in 1819. She was in her 50's when she wrote Middlemarch, which she set in the 1830's. From the same biographical link above - Mary Ann Evans's father gave up on his attempts to match his daughter's plain looks and serious demeanor with a husband - when she was 22. This would have happened in the 1830s....

Was there another option for Dorothea? Did she really have to marry either Casaubon OR Sir James? Was she being forced to marry anyone, Alliemae? Was it Mrs. Cadwallader's pressuring Uncle Brooke to engage his niece to the eligible Sir James? What if Dorothea had refused either suitor, as Eliot had done? I suppose spinsterhood was too big a disgrace for Dorothea to deal with - as Eliot had done...

Flora, still laughing at your post - Casuabon's bio/clock ticking - and Dorothea responding to his interest in HER! Does anyone believe that she is considering making babies with him? Wouldn't this be a natural expectation in any marriage at this time, Babi? If Dorothea does consider this, think about it and swoon when she receives Casaubon's letter, well, can't we assume that she is thinking about him in some sexual scenario as Fae and Scootz assume? A man who studies and writes about the Myths, the gods and their relations...think of what must be in his head - and heart when he proposes to this maiden? She is his heart's desire above all others!

Laura, I looked at Dorothea's desires to serve as a sort of secretary to the learned Casaubon as a form of submission - recognizing her future husband's superiority, putting aside all of her former desire to perform noble acts in order to be with him!

No shopping today. - Am babysitting two red-headed grandsons, 7 mos. and 2 years. Should keep me hopping when you factor in the 10 week old red-haired puppy! No dress..getting clearer on what I do not want, however - just running out of stores that MIGHT carry whatever it is I do. A corset? Yes, a corset might help. The dress, a hairshirt? Hmmm...I'm thinking now of a corset as a hairshirt...

A good Friday, everyone!

Joan, Ah! now I know, thank you Google, le Massacre des Saints Innocents, THE SAINT BARTHALEMEW MASSACRE where Protestants (Huguenots) had to flee to neighboring countries or were beheaded by Catherine de Medicis who was the mother of the next 4 kings of France. Now it becomes more familiar to me.

Had Dorothae been raised Protestant, she would not have venerated St. Theresa, all this will eventually come to light as we continue. Eliot seems to deliberately leave important clues to keep us in suspense.

Some more off-subject to JoanP ~
... no ... no ... stay away from those corsets ... be yourself!

As I wrote to you, I looked like a snow-woman in my light blue mother-of-the-bride dress, but
no one noticed. My daughter was happy, and said I looked fine, which is all that counts.

This is not as off-subject as it might be, because we see that all of our years of being liberated women still
fade when there is a wedding. Did any one besides me go without a br...(don't want to shock anyone) during the late 1960s?
Dorothea has pressure from society to marry, just as we (Joan & I) have experienced pressure to dress "correctly" at a child's wedding.
Thus women's liberation only takes us a measured distance from Dorothea's dilemma.

Unlike several of you gentle readers, I don't think Edward Casaubon is such a terrible, prospective husband for Dorothea. The worst fate for a girl like her would be to marry someone who was intellectually inferior to herself. And the age difference was a normal situation in those years, right?

Eloise ~ tried your link, but it didn't work.

I'm trying not to let my awareness of what happens later affect my current impressions, having
seen the BBC version on TV a few years ago. We all shall see ...

Please don't hint about what we will learn in upcoming chapters if you know. I've read the book before, but I enjoy reading with no knowledge of what is up and coming. I believe there are many in here who know all sorts about what happens next. For whatever value there is in that I grant that to all of you. But, please let me read in ignorance of everything!

Age? If Eliot was born in 1819 she's 22 in 1941, not the 30s. This doeesn't necessarily make the book more or less autobiographical, does it, that Dorothea and Eliot are the same age in the same years? Are we still in 1829? Is that when the book starts?

I'm not convinced of the sexual interest thing. I don't think that a girl of Dorothea's age and limited experience and strange puritanical religious visions is necessarily going to have or concern herself with a sexual attraction. Religion makes her swoon, too, I guess, but I would not ascribe sexual desire to this swooning. Sexual passions are not the only strong ones. Eliot is hitting us over the head with Dorothea's religious passions. She's giving us all sorts of insights into the characters. I'm hesitant to look for something that is not so obvious to me when something more obvious could be the cause.

I don't think a 25 years age difference was 'normal' anymore in that time than in ours. In fact, it's looked upon about the same then as now it seems: not particularly desirable, and Casaubon and Uncle must both speak to this issue out loud. If it were so normal, it would surely not bear consideration by all parties?

"The worst fate for a girl like her would be to marry someone who was intellectually inferior to herself" Mippy

I think this would be a pretty sorry fate. Who was it who said Dorothea does not respect Sir James? She can't even consider marrying him with this hanging over the relationship. And she doesn't consider marriage to him.

Did she have to marry either? Well, no, as she's a teenager, standing to inherit land. She would have had many more prospects for marriage than just these two. Although in the times and customs of arranged marriages the opportunities to meet likely prospects are not the same as in the days of going to school with thousands of eligible young men.

Kleo

Corsets are interesting little things. I'm not sure of the type worn in the 1830s, although it's easy to look these things up as corset making is rather popular now. I'm learning to make late 18th century stays right now. I've made some modernized late 19th century stays and some 16th century ones. An interesting aspect of making these garments as costumes for modern women is that because they have not worn them since birth, and because modern women are generally larger than women of those eras, they have to be seriously resized and altered. I can't simply increase all the measurements, because modern waists cannot be whittled quite that much.

Hair canvas is used today to form the lapels of suits. It's made from goathair, I think. If you go to a fabric store you can see what this is like.

Kleo

Sorry about the link, I think that this is the same one but I am not sure: THE SAINT BARTHOLOMEW MASSACRE I hope this works.

Horsehair sofas were popular in the Victorian era. I think they were supposed to have been uncomfortable.

Re: "Did she really have to marry either Casaubon OR Sir James? Was she being forced to marry anyone...?"

D. WANTED to get married to Casaubon. She even rushed the marriage with an engagement of only 6 weeks. She knew that was a short engagement period. It was her idea.

"Dorothea, with all her eagerness to know the truths of life, retained very childlike ideas about marriage.. She felt sure that she would have accepted the judicious Hooker, if she had been born in time to save him from that wretched mistake he made in matrimony; or John Milton when his blindness had come on; or any of the other great men whose odd habits it would have been glorious piety to endure..." p.10

D. was ripe for someone like Casaubon. Casaubon came to visit at exactly the time D. was looking for someone like him to marry and serve.

And Casaubon was lonely and staring mortality in the face.

Good points, Marni. Yes, I don't see her 'very childlike ideas of marriage' and her religious passions as evidence of a sexual swoon. I just don't feel sex in this first part of the book.

Kleo

I don't think Dorothea would have had any idea about female sexuality. I think she was very naive in this respect. She has high ideals and in my opinion she would not be fixated on the physical side of any relationship with her future husband. She was fixated on some sort of spiritual meeting of the minds.

Carolyn

Sir James represents progress in society's ideas about women; he is of the opposite opinion of Mr. Brooke, giving some regard to women's ideas and good sense. Though Sir James has not totally given up on established ideas of men's dominance, he is far mare permissive of woman's individuality, as shown by his acceptance Dorothea as a potential wife. Sir James, in this respect, embodies the theme of progress that is seen throughout the novel, in social, technological and idealogical areas. So, perhaps we can assume that by Dorothea rejecting Sir James she was also rejecting progress. Now the question is this a bad thing or a good thing?

My husband’s grandmother had a horsehair sofa in her living room. My husband told me that they are very slippery, so you have trouble keeping from sliding off them, and the hairs work loose and stick up, poking you in sensitive places.

wonderfully suggestive, Pat, after reading around in the previous posts. So many things which deserve a comment. When I picked up the thread, there was talk of 'sexual attractions' in Casaubon for Dorothea. That's a non-starter. It's totally unrealistic to look for anything remotely resembling sexual attractions in a respectable Victorian novel, or suggestions thereof. That would be like the thought of love-making on a horsehair sofa arising out of nowhere. Unintended and unjustified. Besides, Eliot's lifestyle seemed highly unconventional to her contemporaries. Sorry I'm called away. I had much more to say. Thank you all, for all the fresh ideas.

OUCh, Pat, horsehair piercing through fabric into soft parts! I inherited a set of dining room chairs stuffed with horsehair...leather seat coverings though. Since the leather was worn, I decided to recover the chairs with fabric...and leave the horsehair for authenticity. Ouch! Changed my mind after sitting on the first finished chair.

Kleo, why on earth are you making stays for corsets? (pour moi?) Mippy, despite your wise advice, I'm still having a difficult time finding a comfortable dress, forget about a smashing one. The mother of bride told me today that she is buying more than one dress and will see how she feels the morning of the wedding depending on the weather. You're right, I can't worry about this whole situation.

How to tie this in with our Middlemarch discussion? Mippy did it - "Thus women's liberation only takes us a measured distance from Dorothea's dilemma."

Would you say that Dorothea is a free-thinking woman, going against society's expectations to choose a man of her own liking, even rushing the engagement period as Marni reminds us? Why would she do that? Was she afraid he'd change his mind?

Carolyn, you don't think Dorothea would have had any idea about female sexuality...THAT is interesting. Do you think she thought about having children - with Casaubon? Listen to me...I'm asking these questions about a fictional character as if she has a life of her own. I think that's an indication of how good Eliot is!

Flora, I'll agree, sex would not have been intimated in a Victorian novel. But surely the Victorian readers would have wondered what Dorothea expected to happen along those lines once married? I'll bet some thought yes, and others no, just as we are doing here.

A lot of middle class women did not even know what happened on the wedding night. They were so sheltered and repressed. It was a terrible shock to a lot of them and some of them became traumatised. The working class were a lot more knowledgeable in these matters mainly because most lived in crowded conditions.

PS Joan I am always much more interested in characterisation than I am in literary style. Its the characters that make a book live for me.

Carolyn

"sex would not have been intimated in a Victorian novel". Don't underestimate Eliot! There's more than one way to intimate.

Carolyn: then you'll love this next section. It's chock-full of characters.

Sorry, JUDY. There is absolutely NO rutabaga on this train. My mother used to make me eat it, and I hated it! I'd rather wear a corset (wellllllll maybe not).

Sir James represents progress in society's ideas about women; he is of the opposite opinion of Mr. Brooke, giving some regard to women's ideas and good sense. Though Sir James has not totally given up on established ideas of men's dominance, he is far mare permissive of woman's individuality, as shown by his acceptance Dorothea as a potential wife. Sir James, in this respect, embodies the theme of progress that is seen throughout the novel, in social, technological and ideological areas. So, perhaps we can assume that by Dorothea rejecting Sir James she was also rejecting progress. Now the question is this a bad thing or a good thing?

In fact, Sir James WANTS Dorothea as a wife because he thinks she will direct him around! Oh, I think you hit the nail on the head!

Kleo

Great catch, JoanP. that we're in here debating what Dorothea is thinking as if she were a living breathing fully actualized human being not a character in a book. Reading George Eliot makes me cry because the books and the writing are so beautiful, not just when they are sad.

I make stays because I make costumes. I'm learning to make all of the undergarments now.

JoanK: "Don't underestimate Eliot! There's more than one way to intimate."

Oh, have we been warned. Never, ever, ever underestimate the power of the word in the hands of George Eliot.

Kleo

Re: "...rushing the engagement period..... Why would she do that? Was she afraid he'd change his mind?"

I think D was rushing the engagement period so she could get started ASAP on her great mission to help a great learned man with his life's work and to learn from him.

I'm heading out for vacation to Seattle and British Columbia in the a.m. I'll check back in on the 19th. Enjoy the discussion!!

Marni

Eloise, thank you so much for fixing the link to the the Saint Bartholomew's Day massacre in 1562, after which the Catholics were dominant in France. "The Catholics have been dominant in France ever since."

I finally got around to looking up the Vaudois Clergy and the Waldenses" - the subject that fascinated Dorothea when she first heard Casaubon speak back in Chapter II...

Waldenses - Waldensians, Protestant religious group of medieval origin, called in French Vaudois. They originated in the late 12th cent. as the Poor Men of Lyons, a band organized by Peter Waldo, a wealthy merchant of Lyons, who gave away his property (c.1176) and went about preaching apostolic poverty as the way to perfection. Being laymen, they were forbidden to preach. They went to Rome, where Pope Alexander III blessed their life but forbade preaching (1179) without authorization from the local clergy. They disobeyed and began to teach unorthodox doctrines; they were formally declared heretics by Pope Lucius III in 1184 and by the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215. In 1211 more than 80 were burned as heretics at Strasbourg, beginning several centuries of persecution. The Waldenses proclaimed the Bible as the sole rule of life and faith. They rejected the papacy, purgatory, indulgences, and the mass, and laid great stress on gospel simplicity. Worship services consisted of readings from the Bible, the Lord's Prayer, and sermons, which they believed could be preached by all Christians as depositaries of the Holy Spirit. Their distinctive pre-Reformation doctrines are set forth in the Waldensian Catechism (c.1489). Waldenses and the Vaudois clergy .

I'm not sure why Eliot included this reference in Chapter II, but I would guess that Peter Waldo - (he gave away his property and went about preaching apostolic poverty as the way to perfection) appealed to young Dorothea's desire to accomplish good in her life. Is that the only reason Eliot included it?

Anne, an insightful observation...

"Sir James, in this respect, embodies the theme of progress that is seen throughout the novel, in social, technological and idealogical areas."

The March of progress and how the Middlemarchers out here in the provinces respond to the call for change - to me, it seems that Mr. Brooke and Sir James are the only ones with their ears to the ground.(!) Everyone else seems happy to maintain the status quo. Dorothea? I'm not sure if I agree that by rejecting Sir James she is rejecting progress. In some ways, she is strong and thinking for herself...dunno.

ps. Marni, have a grand trip! We will be holding your mail and newspapers until the 19th- Take your book and read the rest of Book I and start on Book II if you can? A fat book to lug around though...

pps. Kleo, maybe you could make me a "costume" - complete with corset with stays?

"Your sister is given to self-mortification, is she not?" he continued, turning to Celia, who sat at his right hand.

"I think she is," said Celia, feeling afraid lest she should say something that would not please her sister, and blushing as prettily as possible above her necklace. "She likes giving up."

"If that were true, Celia, my giving-up would be self-indulgence, not self-mortification. But there may be good reasons for choosing not to do what is very agreeable," said Dorothea.

JoanP, you asked, “Most of the upper circles seem to be for maintaining the status quo? Why? "
Most of us still fear change, and how much more they must have feared it when life was so insular. People who held different religious beliefs must have seemed as alien as Hottentots to some of them. Any political or religious upheaval was perceived as a threat to the lives of the classes who felt most protected by the status quo, at least subconsciously. Mrs. Cadwallader is a good example.

You also asked,”Does anyone agree with Flora that Eliot's "authorial voice" is unfair to Casaubon? Who likes what Eliot does with it and who doesn't? “ Doesn’t the omniscient nineteenth century author have the right to state opinions? I thought that was part of the definition of omniscience: not only does the author see into the minds of the characters, but also she has views to share. That’s a major part of the reason for writing, especially in that era. I think it’s hard for us to tell if she’s being fair or unfair this early in the story, but I also think we are supposed to trust her, to believe that she would not be setting us up for a reversal of her perception.

Laura, the DaVinci Code Opus Dei monk was exactly who I was remembering! You have seen right through me.

BBCesana, you asked, “Why does the narrator sometimes represent Celia for example so reasonably and Dorothea so extremely and the same for Casaubon. . . I would think an 'omniscient' narrator would be more impartial.”
I think that Celia is reasonable because she possesses a simple, straightforward nature. She “hates notions,” which means that Dorothea’s preoccupation with ideas is an irritant to her. She is content to live life as it its, without becoming an agent for social and moral improvement. It’s easier to “like” an individual who never stirs the waters, who is easy to understand, who is sweet and loving. It is tougher to live with someone who is always discontented and bent upon changing things for the better, especially if those changes involve upsetting apple carts. That’s part of what Mrs. Cadwllader can’t abide in Dorothea, too. As for Casaubon, I have to wait until the enxt section to synthesize what I think Eliot is suggesting about him .
JoanP, I agree that Eliot is being hard on herself when she’s hard on D.

Daytripper says,”Dorothea, it seems to me, is like many other women who are attracted to someone like Casaubon. He has been and is engaged in a very worthwhile endeavor to increase knowledge and understanding.”
And KLEO says,” Did she have to marry either? Well, no, as she's a teenager, standing to inherit land. She would have had many more prospects for marriage than just these two. Although in the times and customs of arranged marriages the opportunities to meet likely prospects are not the same as in the days of going to school with thousands of eligible young men. “ Both shed light on Dorothea’s dilemma. (How melodramatic! Sounds like Perils of Pauline!) If she were living today, she wouldn’t settle for either match. She would be off to a university, a mission, the Peace Corps or the equivalent. She would be very likely to meet many young men with similar aspirations. As it is (was?), she has to become the handmaiden of someone whose philosophical and moral inquiries match her needs for knowledge and spiritual growth.

JoanP, good luck on dress hunt! I have two hanging in the closet from granddaughter's wedding this summer. I don't get dressed up often enough to get my money's worth out of them, I'm afraid. I'll beet those little redheads are adorable, and I'll bet that dog is an Irish terrier!

Scootz said, “I have to be real honest and say that had I not read on the back of the book that Dorothea's choice is going to be a failure, I'm not sure if I'd think she was choosing the right man or not. Far as I'm concerned, that back blurb may well have colored my thinking on the relationships so far. “ LOL! I, too, read the blurb on the back of the B&N edition and promptly forgot it! LOL! I find I do that with all book jacket synopses. I can understand how your thinking would be tainted by such commentary.

Joan P asked, “Did she really have to marry either Casaubon OR Sir James?” Good question! Technically, no. However, societal pressure to marry seemed to be very strong, especially to marry by a certain age, before it was too late. Plus, I think she wanted an intellectual companion. And thank you for the clarification on Dorothea’s submission.

Scrawler said, “So, perhaps we can assume that by Dorothea rejecting Sir James she was also rejecting progress. Now the question is this a bad thing or a good thing?” This idea is thought provoking. I am going to try to keep it in mind as I read on.

Joan P asked, “Would you say that Dorothea is a free-thinking woman, going against society's expectations to choose a man of her own liking, even rushing the engagement period as Marni reminds us? Why would she do that? Was she afraid he'd change his mind?” LOL! I hadn’t even thought about Casaubon changing his mind. My reply to this series of question is quite simple --- once you have found “the one,” you don’t want to waste any time starting your life together.

Scrawler said, “So, perhaps we can assume that by Dorothea rejecting Sir James she was also rejecting progress. Now the question is this a bad thing or a good thing?” This idea is thought provoking. I am going to try to keep it in mind as I read on.

This *could* have been a way for D to accomplish some great works, by carrying through with her work with James on the cottages. By rejecting him, she rejected the chance to do that. It's a bad thing, imho.

Please, I don't read the blurbs. I don't read the synopsis of the book. When I am inside a book I have read before I don't remember the book. I love to have a book unfold freshly for me. It would be nice if folks are going to quote the blurbs that reveal major events in the novel, or even quote other folks in here who have quoted the blurbs, if folks would use SPOILER WARNINGS!!!!! So that those of us who have NOT read the blurbs--maybe because we don't want to know what they say--do not encounter the blurbs in this discussion.

Please post SPOILER warnings if you are going to talk about something outside of the scheduled reading so that this board can accommodate all types of readers. I pick my reading clubs carefully, and not talking ahead of the reading is a part of the SeniorNet style that I really want.

Thank you!

Kleo

Unringing the bell/Possible Spoiler- who knows?

kleo- As you can see above, from my past post, I *did* label my post as a possible spoiler.

Pride is another theme running through the course of this book; it is what keeps Dorothea from realizing and admitting she is wrong, stops Casaubon from asking himself whether his upcoming marriage will benefit Dorothea, and smothers Sir James' disappointment in a new surge of hope for his marriage prospects. As Eliot says, pride can be a good thing; in a sensible, even-tempered person like Sir James, pride does not deceive him, and can be a rather beneficial thing. But pride also works in harmful ways. Is it because of PRIDE that Dorothea and Casaubon's marriage is doomed?

Yes, Scootz, you posted a spoiler warning on your post. So, I didn't read it! Thank you for giving me the option. But then your post was quoted without a spoiler warning in another post. Neither of my posts about spoilers were in reference to Scootz's one post which did contain an appropriate spoiler warning. This is not clear in my second post, which actually refers to Scootz's post as if it were part of the problem. This is not the case, and I apologize to you Scootz for this when were being careful.

It's a bit tough to get used to doing book clubs on the Internet. In person, many book clubs meet once to discuss the book. Spoiler warnings are not necessary and we are not used to them from in-person book clubs or classes. It took me a while to get used to them. I still blow it sometimes! Barnes and Nobles classic editions are notorious for revealing major plot devices on the back cover and in the introduction. They have on-line classics book clubs which do this also, they introduce the entire story in the introductory lesson of the book club. If you have not read the book in its entirety it is spoiled for you on your first day of class!

Kleo

This is an interesting part of Scrawler's question to me: What obligation, if any, does Casaubon have to consider what benefit the marriage will be to Dorothea?

Is he responsible for considering Dorothea to be more valuable than society and his culture already values her? Isn't this Dorothea's contribution to high society, becoming a wife? Blech.

Kleo

Kleo- Thanks for the clarification. I am usually pretty careful about anything like that. You're right- they shouldn't put such a thing on the back of the book if that isn't going to become evident for some time yet. I made the error just once of reading the Introduction in one of the BN Classics- never again!

For the most part- I don't ever think that anyone intentionally would spoil something for someone else. Generally it's done totally inadvertently.

“Most of the upper circles seem to be for maintaining the status quo? Why? " That is a very interesting question. Historically, this is almost always true. The upper circles ARE the upper circles because they have benefited from the status quo, which put or kept them on top. So of course, they fight to keep things that way.

I am interested in the history of technology, and this shows up very dramatically there. New technology is often used to bring a new group of people to the top. But once there, those people become very conservative, and the same people who were at the forefront of progress are often the ones who fight to repress the next wave of new technology, for fear it would threaten their position.

JO: excellent point But is Celia as simple as she appears? Is she always sweet? It seems to me she has a bit of bite.

“If she were living today, she wouldn’t settle for either match. She would be off to a university, a mission, the Peace Corps or the equivalent. She would be very likely to meet many young men with similar aspirations”. Another good point. Living in this small town, she doesn’t have many opportunities, either to do “great” things or meet someone sympathetic. Sir James represents progress? That’s a fascinating idea, since he is a member of the aristocracy: the old order in England that is being challenged by the Industrial Revolution. Have we seen other instances of him being progressive, or is he just giving D. What she wants?

Also interesting to trace the influence of pride on people’s choices. I’m going to think about that as we go along.

“What obligation, if any, does Casaubon have to consider what benefit the marriage will be to Dorothea?” Another excellent question. Clearly, he doesn’t even begin to do so. This marriage is all about his comfort. Eliot points out that D. Is encouraging him to think that way.

I also am glad that we are being so responsible about not revealing turns of plot. That is such an easy mistake to make!! Luckily, there’s a lot more to this book than plot. But still!!

JoanK, when I said Celia was simple, I didn’t mean stupid or unthinking. Compared to Dorothea’s mind, hers is simple but also perceptive. I think she understands her sister quite well, and she certainly is able to let her know when she’s a pain. Somebody already quoted her responding to Dorothea’s rejection of Sir James: “…you went on as you always do, never looking just where you are, and treading in the wrong place. You always see what nobody else sees; it is impossible to satisfy you; yet you never see what is quite plain. That’s your way, Dodo.” The things Celia values are a world away from Dorothea’s “notions,” but she knows that D. misses completely the effect her words and behavior have on others. I’ll bet Eliot didn’t much care how her words and behavior affected people, either.

Pride..., I agree Anne, PRIDE seems to be the big motivator here, not love. Joan K says the upper circles ARE the upper circles because they have benefited from the status quo....through generations. Yes, they would fear change - change means losing social position.

And from Jo - "most of us still fear change, and how much more they must have feared it when life was so insular. in Middlemarch. "Any political or religious upheaval was perceived as a threat to the lives of the classes who felt most protected by the status quo, at least subconsciously. Mrs. Cadwallader is a good example."

We get a better look at Mrs. Cadwallader in Chapter VI. It might be good to read through this chapter again ... In spite of her snottiness, there are funny scenes here as she covers the countryside in her black phaeton - "with a mind as active as phosphorous." Isn't it amazing what humor can do to dull the edges of her controlling behavior? Actually, she doesn't seem to be having much luck controlling anyone... she's about as ineffective as Mr. Brooke, do you think?

Is there religious upheaval at this time...or is it just Dorothea Brooke with the outré ideas? We hear more from Mr. Brooke on the political issues in this chapter. It seems he's serious about running for parliament - as a Liberal Whig, supporting Peel. Not only that, but Casaubon is in agreement with him on this! Oh my, Mrs. C. is not very happy. Nevertheless, she seems undaunted in her plan to unite Mr. Brooke's other niece with Sir James' titled family. Why is that?

Will Celia and James' pride permit them to settle for second best? JoanK questions Celia's sweetness. I too see a "bite" - in the form of self-interest. She's had her eyes on Sir James all along. I think her aspirations will overcome her pride. But what of Sir James and his bruised vanity? There's a line in Chapter VI that indicates he may get over Dorothea because of his pride -

"Pride helps, and pride is not a bad thing when it only urges us to hide our hurts."

Something to think about - are prideful people really hurting, hiding hurt feelings? What's your guess, will Celia and Sir James get together? Do they have anything in common? I'm not going to ask if you think they will be happy together - as happiness does not seem to be the goal in these marital unions...

Off to N. J. for a family get-together tomorrow. Have a super Sunday, everyone!

ps. Jo, you got it - a 10 week old Irish terrier pup - and like Dorothea, I'm "treading" all over the poor little thing.
pps. Ginny Ann, even with no mention of Jane Austen's influence, please share tidbits from Ermarth's G E biography?

Kleo, I apologize for not putting a spoiler warning when I quoted Scootz's comment. Since it was talking about the blurb on the back of the book, it didn't even occur to me that it was a spoiler, but, of course, it is. My apologies. Don't worry about me spoiling anything else. I will not be reading ahead and will be spending most of my time with the group in catch up mode.

Just out of curiosity, how do you choose which books to read if you don't read book jackets?

My opinion of Sir James rose another notch in the way he dealt with Dorothea's engagement to Casaubon. While fully accepting the fact that she was not for him, he still felt a real concern over the idea of her marrying Casaubon. He acted as a friend, attempting to persuade the parson to intervene or Mr. Brooke to at least delay the marriage. He was convinced that if Dorothea had more time to get to know Casaubon better, she would change her mind. I suspect he may have been right.

Casaubon's emotions during this period were certainly unpromising. He is surprised himself to realize how very cool he is about the whole thing, how completely unexcited at the prospect of marriage to this charming young girl. Could Dorothea have failed to realize, over an extended engagement, how little Casaubon looked forward to this marriage? With such a chilly bridegroom, what hope is there for Dorothea's happiness.

Babi

Have we then started discussing the next section? I've been waiting to see a new plate of questions but I seem to be seeing posts that discuss the next section. After the spoiler thing, I'm a bit anxious about not doing the done thing . If we're into the next section, great! I'll start talking about it.??????????????

I was confused about the start date for the next section too. I think previously, I had seen a start date of Sept. 11, but I see now it is the 12th, so I am holding off until tomorrow.

I have my Ermarth sitting on the top of my tower so it will be handy to use for this discussion. I am reading the 4th chapter but also trying to keep up with all the posts.

Good morning. I'm glad you all were confused -- I was too. I'm looking forward to this next section -- we meet a trainload of new characters, and they are all interesting. I'm curious to see what we will make of them.

BABI I agree with you that Sir James acted as a true friend when he tried to delay D.'s marriage. He really is a good-hearted man. I find Eliot's characters so interesting because they are never just one thing. No good people and bad people here, just people - people with different mixtures of good and bad. (Well, in some, it's harder to find the good than in others).

LAURA D: don't worry, we've all accidentally "given away" plot sometime. I stupidly started to read the preface to my Middlemarch, until I realized that it was telling me what happened to everybody.

In one of our earlier book discussions, the author, from Afghanistan, commented that Americans never want to know how it ends, whereas Afghans always DO want to know how it ends. Probably tells us something about the different cultures.

Laura--

I'm not worried about your spoiling anything, again, even if you do. It just takes time to get used to it, and I appreciate being reminded by others every once in a while, too. Generally spoilers are the result of being excited about something, not intentionally done as Scootz points out--I find it hard to fault people for enthusiasm. I still do it myself at times, I'm sorry to say. Thank you for your nice note. As you are a new voice here, I don't want to scare you away!

I select books by picking them up and reading a few pages in the text. This is one reason I love used bookstores, they have a more diverse range of authors than new booksellers, and they encourage browsing of this sort. Or I read authors I know. Or I get books as presents. I encourage my friends to give me books they love as presents--they know it doesn't matter if I don't love the book, as it's an intimate invitation to learn something about a person I care for, whatever the reading. I've met some of my favorite authors this way. Or people in here or elsewhere on the Internet mention books they've loved. Or I read books because they're classics and I have a strong preference for literature. Reading to me is about immersing myself in the prose. This is probably because I was raised on poetry and drama.

Yes, picking up a book and reading a few pages does lead to major spoilers on occasion. However, the way I read, focusing on the prose and the moment in the book, and my ability to forget details I already know when reading a book again, usually counteract this. Not always, though. I've had to forego reading a few murder mysteries that I've spoiled this way.

I read George Eliot for the first time when I was a teenager. I read Thomas Hardy first, and the booksellers at Shorey's in Seattle told me that I might like George Eliot, too, since I loved Thomas Hardy so much, and they knew I liked exploring women authors in general.

Kleo

You said: since I loved Thomas Hardy so much,

A woman of good taste!

I also *adore* Hardy, kleo..he's my favorite of the classic authors. I'm reading FAR FROM THE MADDING CROWD at present. I'm not sure I see a resemblance between Eliot and Hardy though, at least not yet. In general, I find Hardy much more easily read, but maybe that's just me.

Scootz and Kleo--Interesting conversation about liking Eliot and Hardy. Although I like them both very much, they are very different to me. I went to a high school that had a more or less set curriculum which meant that we read some of the classic authors, even if it was one of their lesser works.

We read, for example, Silas Marner (my introduction to Eliot) and The Return of the Native (intro. to Hardy).

I think maybe one of the reasons that Hardy may seem an easier read is that he is the more recent author (he died in 1928) as well as the fact that he wrote of the working classes. I have read most of his novels (not the earlier ones) and can still remember how very BLEAK Jude the Obscure was. YIKES that was a heartbreaker, at least for me.

Looking back, I'm really grateful to my high school English teacher who always held us to the highest standards and who provided help for reading difficult novels. She always accompanied our introduction to the novel (or play) with worksheets (vocabulary words--I still remember some of them not being in the dictionary at home-- also historical happenings that were referred to in the novel, as well as street names.)

My first introduction to London (and Paris when we read Tale of Two Cities) was not travelling there but becoming familiar with street names and what trades were associated with them. She simply checked to see that these worksheets were filled out and gave us check marks. There were many sheets to accompany each novel, all stapled together. They were due at intervals, intersecting with the readings.

She designed these worksheets herself and they were more demanding than many college assignments I have seen in recent years.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't remember Hardy commenting as much as Eliot does on the characters and their choices. That is generally characteristic of the Victorian novelist. The prime example of such commentary I can think of occurs in Thackeray's Vanity Fair. He continually addresses the reader, in phrases like "And now, dear reader, what are we to make of Becky and her conceit?"

Maryal

And now, dear members, what are we to make of Eliot and Hardy?

I did read Silas Marner but honestly, it just doesn't seem like the same author as the writer of MM. I also read RETURN OF THE NATIVE in high school, bought it again this week- I don't recall a THING about it. Not a thing- except that I loved it. Does that make sense to anyone? Maybe kleo you understand since you mentioned not recalling details in books. That's me! I have a good idea of whether I liked/loved/hated the book, but don't even ask me details about it a month later.

As I'm reading FAR FROM THE MADDING CROWD right now, no, I don't recall asides that comment on the people in the novel in that sense. But, his writing is just easier and more "folksy" if I can put that label on such great writing. (Hardy is no doubt rolling in his grave. Sorry, T.H.!)

I can't make any hard and fast statements about how much I like Eliot yet. By the end of the book, I'll know better.

BTW- I want you all to know that I have become a Barnes & Noble Classic fool in the past two weeks. I've decided to start a collection and I'm not even going to admit to how many I bought in the past fortnight!

Good thing they're not the price of current books. Funny they are so much *better* though! Cheaper AND better- now that's a combo I can like.

Hardy and Eliot were only about 20 years apart. They both wrote Victorian novels set in British market towns with major touches of realism, although used in very different ways. It is hard to get past Hardy's lack of belief in the humanity of human beings when reading him and compare him to anyone else. Eliot wrote books set a bit in her past, while Hardy wrote modern novels set in his times. This makes them seem far more different than they are, in spite of the lack of similarities between them. Those who have read and loved both will not disagree too strongly with me in this, I think.

Eliot's writing, in my opinion, is less approachable to the average reader than Hardy's. Scootz, I agree that Hardy is an easier read stylistically. He can be a bit harder to take, though. I often suspect him of not seeing the good in anyone. Jude the Obscure was my favorite Hardy for a long time. I must reread it.

The one thing that relates them the most, in my opinion, is their huge ability to write well. A well written book is a pleasure to read, no matter what the topic. When it comes to the darkness of humanity, I think Hardy though his outlook proven with the dawn of the Great War. I do not want to think about the things that Hardy offers us, but I don't think I can contribute to anything better if I don't. I might as well get it well-written.

Scootz-- You obviously have brilliant tastes in literature.

Kleo

I completely agree with you, Scootz, that Hardy is 'folksy.' And that he is turning over in his grave. He is possibly one of the greatest masters of the English language ever to live. But somehow the average, not the gifted, reader may still approach his works with confidence they will get something out of him with little work. He is a genius with words.

Kleo

Thanks for your note, Kleo. I won't be scared away too easily. I have been participating in on-line book discussions for two years and hardly a discussion goes by without a spoiler or two.

I found your method for choosing books fascinating, so completely opposite of mine. Two young children in tow doesn't make browsing in a book store something I can do often. I buy most of my books on the internet. I read the synopsis of the book, and the Library Journal and Kirkus Reviews, before deciding on a book. I rarely see the book before it shows up at my house in a brown cardboard box, so it is kind of like opening a present when I receive it, as I can look through it and touch it for the first time.

Incidently, what are the guidelines for comments not directly related to the book, such as this one? Since we seem to be in an interlude today, I feel comfortable posting this, but am being careful to stick to the book at other times.

You asked: what are the guidelines for comments not directly related to the book, such as this one? Since we seem to be in an interlude today, I feel comfortable posting this, but am being careful to stick to the book at other times.

Like me, Laura, and as a newbie, I'm anxious to do the right thing. Don't want to step on any toes, particularly since I am enjoying myself so much here. I can't answer this but feel that off topic tangents are generally frowned upon and these discussions tend to be much more focused than the B&N groups- thank goodness!

I think we're all more than ready for the next set of questions. Loads of new characters to meet and greet and dissect! Dorothea will become one of many to consider.

Laura- I hope to make you a Hardy convert yet, girl!

I forgot to mention- there is a board here called Book Nook where more general topics about reading and books can be discussed. I don't know how to post the link, but you can find it on the home page for fiction and non-fiction books.

You're all well within bounds. We're clearly waiting until tomorrow to begin the next chunk of chapters. JoanPis out of town and I've been joining in the Hardy/Eliot discussion.

I pick books the same way Kleo (I think it was Kleo) does. I read the first ten-twenty pages in the bookstore (Borders and B&N within close driving range of my home=5). I don't read the back cover or the flaps, just the text. I loved Laura's description of the surprise arriving at the door though.

My daughter is even worse than I am. She won't read movie reviews, doesn't want to know ANYTHING about the movie except the title and sometimes who's in it. Or the genre. I am allowed to say "It's a mystery." Anything else she considers a spoiler.

By the way, I've been wondering for a while now, does anyone know where the term "spoiler" arrived? Does it coincide with the internet?

Maryal

I have a question. What is the point of view in Middlemarch? Third person all seeing doesn't quite fit because of the comments from the author, but neither is second person (Fitzgerald's The Great Gatsby).

What do you all think of Dorothea's reading list? Like Pacal and Jeremy Taylor. And Locke and Milton. And pamphlets on church history, with marginal comments by Edward Casaubon. Obviously not the one on her uncles's reading list: Adam Smith. For which he seems to think he has sufficient cause to say that ladies know nothing about political economy.

Eliot is impressive in exploring character and personality. It's kind of refreshing for a change to get the pre-Freudian understanding of human nature. Of course the English character doesn' lend itself to Freudian analysis too easily. Perhaps too much of the Shakespeare legacy and heritage in the English soul. Look how Sir James extricates himself from the embarrassment of being rejected. Much talk of vanity and pride, but the end result is still the stiff upper lip. Is he really feeling sorry for Dorothea by suggesting impediments to her marriage, or is it wounded pride? Is he a fair representative of the English Gentleman, England's contribution to civilized living?

Flora

...a few thoughts on today's comments - before moving on...

Ginny Ann's question on the novel's point of view..."Third person all seeing doesn't quite fit because of the comments from the author, but neither is second person." Earlier this week, BBC and Fae both observed that this omniscient narrator not only sees all points of view, but sees more than the characters themselves see. I think we concluded that the omniscient narrator is the author herself. Does everyone agree with this?

Laura's question - how do you choose a book if you don't read the book jacket? This brings up another question...how many of you read the INTRODUCTION to a book before you start Chapter I? You seem to be saying that the Introduction is a spoiler. Do you skip it? Why on earth would an Introduction be placed in the beginning if you weren't supposed to be reading it before you start the book?

Hardy, we did Hardy's Jude the Obscure for 7 months in '97 - '98. It's in the SeniorNet archives for anyone who wants to follow along - some excellent links and observations in that discussion. I was just now looking at it, after reading your posts comparing the two, Eliot and Hardy ...and thought you might be interested in the discussion of Hardy's concerns about the married state -

"Several times she states that Jude is all she has in the world and how she fears losing his love if they marry. She tells him that few women like marriage, but do it for dignity and social advantage."

Hi Laura...I experience that same special excitement whenever a book is delivered!! And oh, how I love 'presents'!!

Alliemae

Alliemae, I feel the same way when the mailman comes - even when I've ordered the "present" for myself!

"Eliot's writing, in my opinion, is less approachable to the average reader than Hardy's."(Kleo). How do the rest of you feel about Eliot's writing at this point? Do you find it pleasurable to read, or a challenge? Or both? I read somewhere that Eliot's approach is to start with the abstract before moving on to the concrete. I find that I have some trouble with the abstract part, but that suddenly I see what she was leading to when I reach the concrete.

Then there's the other problem of not knowing what to do with the information I'm reading when it is absolutely concrete. I'm learning that there is a reason for everything - that the structure and contents are all carefully (sometimes excruciatingly) thought out. So what was the point of the dialogue between Mrs. Fithcett and the housekeeper at the Brooke's - at the start of Chapter VI on the trading of the church pigeons and "the wicked Spanish fowls that eat their own eggs." I'm still wondering about that. All I got from the whole exchange was how close the Casaubons and the Brookes were. Uncle Brooke was more comfortable with his future son-in-law than with Sir James?

Flora...a good question - Is he (Sir James) really feeling sorry for Dorothea by suggesting impediments to her marriage, or is it wounded pride? Is he a fair representative of an English gentleman?

Have we decided if Sir James represents CHANGE or the STATUS QUO? For all the talk of how enlightened he is regarding Dorothea's freedoms if she will but be his wife, don't you have to wonder what sort of a husband he would be? Doesn't he seem to disregard her religious tendencies, saying she will outgrow them once they are married? Can he easily transfer his affections to Celia who has expressed interest in him, therefore soothing his wounded vanity?

"So what was the point of the dialog between Mrs. Fithcett and the housekeeper at the Brooke's - at the start of Chapter VI on the trading of the church pigeons and "the wicked Spanish fowls that eat their own eggs."

I confess I never thought of it having a point, other than to show a lot about character and relationship with the working class (well liked, but willing to drive a bargain to her own advantage). But maybe it is an analogy? We have a lot of "church pigeons" among the characters: are we going to get any character who could be a "Spanish fowl, eating its own eggs"? We'll have to keep our eyes open.

"Somethin' fer the cows to graze in." (an old Dad joke...can you tell?) {smile}

Ch. 10: paragraph 4:

"...for we all of us, grave or light, get our thoughts entangled in metaphors, and act fatally on the strength of them." [The Narrator]

Ch. 10: paragraph 3:

"For in truth, as the day fixed for his marriage came nearer, Mr. Casaubon did not find his spirits rising; nor did contemplation of that matrimonial garden-scene, where as all experience showed, the path was to be bordered with flowers, prove persistently more enchanting to him than the accustomed vaults where he walked taper in hand." [The Narrator]

Ch: 10: paragraph 3:

"He did not confess to himself, still less could he have breathed to another, his surprise that though he had won a lovely and noble-hearted girl he had not won delight,--which he had also regarded as an object to be found by search." [The Narrator]

Does this mean that 'a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" for example, is not entirely true and by responding as quickly and 'selflessly' to Mr. Casaubon, Dorothea had robbed him of the excitement of not only the chase, but the thrill of that "...compound interest of enjoyment..." Mr. Casaubon "had imagined his long studious bachelorhood had stored up for him...."

Is 'A bird in the hand worth two in the bush," a metaphor?

Alliemae

Good morning, early bird! - Alliemae, are forcing us to graze in metaphor along with you, first thing on a Monday morning. - "a bird in hand, worth two in the bush." You'd have thought that Casaubon would have been relieved of his courting duties and get back to serious work, with his little bird so willing to enter his nest - without the distracting "feathering" he had expected. Isn't this an amazing, ironic turn of events? He misses the chase! His bird too willing. I love the growing awareness in each of these characters.

Before we get further into it - and before I forget to ask, can anyone explain the meaning of the metaphor found in the Latin proverb Eliot chose to begin Chapter VII, which translates -

"Pleasure and melons/
Want the same weather."

Babi notes that the bridegroom has cooled...at the prospect of this marriage. Do you agree Sir James suggestion to Uncle Brooke that the engagement period be extended would have given them both time to reassess their expectations? What was the stated reason for shortening this "prematrimonial acquaintance period" in their case? Babi asks - "With such a chilly bridegroom, what hope is there for Dorothea's happiness."

In the back of my mind, it is true that Eliot sees Dorothea as her own young self, I'm wondering what event in her own life she regrets having impetuously rushed into.

Eagerly awaiting your always refreshing insights. Love Monday mornings!

Joan said-How do the rest of you feel about Eliot's writing at this point? Do you find it pleasurable to read, or a challenge? Or both?

I find it challenging. I read it in the morning with my coffee (as opposed to at night with my Pinot Noir..lol, which would never do!). And I can only do a small amount at a time. I'm no dolt, but it does take concentration for me to read her. She's not exactly snuggle-in-bed type reading. At least not to me.

Joan asked:So what was the point of the dialogue between Mrs. Fithcett and the housekeeper at the Brooke's - at the start of Chapter VI on the trading of the church pigeons and "the wicked Spanish fowls that eat their own eggs."

Confession time- I don't worry at all over things like this. Perhaps I should, but that's over-reading to me. No offense, just answering the question.

Joan asked; Is he (Sir James) really feeling sorry for Dorothea by suggesting impediments to her marriage, or is it wounded pride?

Frankly, I'm not sure what James' "deal" is yet. He claims to be over her, yet is going about town imploring others to stop the marriage. Hmmm, can you say hypocrisy? I haven't figured him out yet. But to me, it's none if his business who Dorothea weds.

This brings up another question...how many of you read the INTRODUCTION to a book before you start Chapter I? You seem to be saying that the Introduction is a spoiler. Do you skip it? Why on earth would an Introduction be placed in the beginning if you weren't supposed to be reading it before you start the book?

If an introduction is actually part of the novel, of course I read it..it's like a prelude, preface, etc. However, in the case of the B&N Classic books, the introduction is written by someone other than the author. It tells the whole dang story! Do not read the intro in these editions if you're a spoiler hater.You have been forwarned!

I apologize to seemingly be flooding the board with post after post. I can't quite get the hang of scrolling backwards and then posting and being able to consolidate, so I apologize. It's not normally so much of an issue but this morning there are several pages of new posts. I will try to do better on this, if I can figure it out.

I'd like to tackle one of the new questions at the top of the page:

1. Should the unexpected discoveries about one another during their "pre-matrimonial acquaintanceship" be cause for concern or second thoughts?

I don't know how realistic it would be to expect these little pecadilloes of each other to be cause for concern. Who among us didn't see these sorts of things pre-marriage and think they would "certainly change" post-wedding? I just don't think we have that sort of clear thinking going in. Dorothea at her young age wouldn't anyhow. But actually, Casaubon *should* at his ripe old age if he might get his head out of a book ever long enough to consider anything at all relating to feelings! He gets a bit on my last nerve, can you tell?

How do Dorothea and Rev. Casaubon readjust their expectations for the marriage?

They both are idealizing what they expect the other to be. They just aren't seeing themselves at all for what they are- or each other for what they are, come to that!

Joan- Me thinks that Sir James "protestes" too heartily. I do not believe that he feels sorry for D. as much as he feels sorry for himself. I believe he is hiding his true feelings of rejection and woe behind this false worry , "mingled with compassion" for D.

"Of course the forked lightning seemed to pass through him when he first approached her, and he remained conscious throughout the interview of hiding uneasiness;"

Everyone seems hell bent on Uncle impeding this engagement. Hell, I don't blame them, this guy sounds like a troll. This all sounds very odious (or oedipal) to me. I love the way Sir James discribes him:
"He must be fifty, and I don't believe he could ever have been much more than the shadow of a man. Look at his legs!"
Ha-ha his legs. Do I denote an analogy or metaphor for an appendage? A part? A segment? I think we're overlooking Eliot's humor here.

Gross- James sees this match as akin to Desdemona and Othello. Does he see her awaiting this troll after being ordered to wait in his bed, wondering what sin she has committed ?

I always read the introduction to a classic book ahead of time.
Also, any on-line reviews are available and are helpful, in some cases.
The concept of "spoiler" is of little concern to me except in a true mystery or who-done-it, or maybe an adventure yarn. I'm pretty sure this term predates on-line reading by decades.

Alf ~ are you saying Sir James has the right to judge? Casaubon is certainly nothing like Othello!

I think that Sir James is simply the sort of person who doubts Dorothea's choice merely because she didn't choose him! Unbelievable! Not to be borne!!

I think he wanted her and to the capacity of his feelings even thought he was in love with her. He wanted what he found he couldn't have and not only could he not have Dorothea but she chose someone who, especially in his eyes, was sooooo inferior to him as a man.

Alliemae

Dorothea desires to know Latin and Greek not because it would help her husband, but because it will help her become a more well-learned person. This shows an inkling of her true desires, but she also believes it is her duty mostly to GIVE, and is swayed by her emotion and passion. On the other hand, Casaubon feels little passion, and expects to receive without giving; he believes he is owed every comfort in his endless pursuit of knowledge and thinks of Dorothea as an instrument rather than a person. He enjoys her being ignorant, though she does not; he wants dominance in the relationship, and she expects the relationship to be something resembling an exchange, with knowledge and enlightenment as the pay for her pains.

Mr. Brooke again shows himself to be a symbol of the old ways of thinking about gender roles and society. His speech about women not being suited to real learning, and needing to be limited to the arts and other light pursuits was widely believed during this time period.

Dorothea is infected by these ideas, with her beliefs about self-sacrfice of women and her possible inability to learn like men do; but, deep down she does not believe in them, as she first demonstrates with her distaste for her uncle's assertion that women should be involved in light, artistic pursuits.

I am thinking that both men here didn't have a clue as to what a romantic innocent girl Dorothea was. Her idea of love was what she gleaned from the novels she read. If I remember what I read as a teenager, love and sex were entirely two different things. D obviously was not in love with either Casaubon or Sr. James. She was immersed in idealistic, not to say platonic, idea that her life was going to be the continuation of the novels she read, trusting her husband to take charge of her life in every respect and he would just mentor her in her intellectual pursuits.

It seems to me he had never given love a second thought and as a Pastor, he had to get married and when Dorothea came along, he jumped at the chance. Had she been ugly, he would have acted the same way, he was looking for a proper wife period. To me this was a marriage of convenience for him. For her she just followed the dictates of her time and in her social circumstances, St. James didn't look like the ideal intellectual partner she was seeking, Casaubon was, but her hormones had not kicked in yet.

My favorite person thus far has got to be Rector Cadwallader. As far as I can see it, he minds his own business and respects the lives of others.

I was so impressed by him the whole of chapter VIII. TO Chettam he says,

"For anything I can tell, Miss Brooke may be happier with him than she would be with any other man."

and to his wife..""What has that to do with Miss Brooke's marrying him? She does not do it for my amusement."

What a guy! He can keep his big fat nose out of everyone else's affair. Bravo! Man oh man, I can't stand a busybody and Middlemarch seems to be chock full.

Scootz--Mr. Cadwallader certainly seems to be the exact opposite of his wife whose nose is in everyone's business. I find him delightful too. Did you notice that he and Sir James have a close relationship? Also, he is a clergyman whose true interest in life is fishing. Reminds me of the Rev. John Russell whose true passion in life was raising Jack Russell terriers (he invented the breed) and fox hunting. Being ordained and having a living in the nineteenth century didn't always mean that you turned out to be someone like Casaubon.

ALLIEMAE: well, at least we’re all grazing together.

Love this quote: “"...for we all of us, grave or light, get our thoughts entangled in metaphors, and act fatally on the strength of them."

You’re right. As a fanatic birdwatcher, I can definitely tell you that a bird in the bush is worth at least two in the hand. The bush is where birds belong (and where Dorothea belonged too).

Does anyone know what kind of weather melons need? Fair, I assume. But I still don’t get it.

SCOOTZ: thanks for warning us. I usually read the preface, if written by someone else, after I read the book. It doesn’t “spoil” the book, and if there is good analysis, it means more to me after I read. Plus, I like to get my own impressions first. What do the rest of you do.

So, neither D. Or C. Is thinking clearly enough to respond to intimations of trouble. I agree. Canceling an engagement, once made, was a HUGE deal in English upper-class society. Remember, 50 years earlier, Jane Austin did it, and it was a big big scandal.

ALF: “Ha-ha his legs. Do I denote an analogy or metaphor for an appendage? A part? A segment? I think we're overlooking Eliot's humor here”.

Good get, as they say in tennis. Hahahaha. I think there are other references too to a lack on C’s part.

I think the reference to Othello is probably a bit of racism on Chattem’s part.

ALLIEMAE: “she chose someone who, especially in his eyes, was sooooo inferior to him as a man. “ I agree, that must have been like salt in the wound.

SCRAWLER: “Dorothea is infected by these ideas, with her beliefs about self-sacrifice of women and her possible inability to learn like men do; but, deep down she does not believe in them, as she first demonstrates with her distaste for her uncle's assertion that women should be involved in light, artistic pursuits. “

An excellent point. She believes what society tells her, but she really knows inside that it’s not true. Boy, do I identify with that one. That’s me at twenty. How about you all.

If she had had more belief in herself, what difference would it have made? Would she have fallen for Casaubon?

ELOISE: “as a Pastor, he had to get married and when Dorothea came along, he jumped at the chance”

Have any of you wondered why the clergyman, Casaubon is never seen doing any of the work of a clergyman?

The characters we have met so far are all members of the British upper class. Sir James is an aristocrat. The others are what is called “gentry”. Gentry are people who have “family” that is they have some family connection to the Aristocracy: the lords who own land. This connection may be very weak, and the gentry may have neither land nor money, but “family” is enough to qualify them a ladies and gentlemen.

Gentlemen don’t do “work”. They either live off of inherited wealth (as Chattem and Mr. Brooke do), or they join one of the few occupations which are “fit for a gentleman”: officer in the army or navy, government official, lawyer or clergyman (medicine is just being admitted to that list, as we find out in this section). Positions in the clergy, like C. has are in the control of a member of the upper class to hand out to gentry who need a source of income. In the small ones, the person might actually function as a clergyman, bur the larger ones performed no actual work – some of them never even saw their congregations (those under them did the work). It was a form of welfare for gentry in reduced circumstances.

Casaubon seems to have both an inherited income and one of these positions. Thus, he is free to spend all his time on scholarship. I don’t know whether there would have been any pressure on him to marry or not.

I haven’t sorted out all the clergy in the book yet, but I’d sure rather have Cadwalleder as my pastor than Casaubon, as SCOOTZ points out.

The families of the Garths, the Vincy's amd the Cadawalleder's seem reasonable and happy types - which contrasts them to others - and I like and enjoy these bits. However the Rector and Mr. Brooke have in common a distanced approach to Dorothea's marriage - which preserves their own territory but may help to sacrifice Dorothea little. But Dorothea is so headstrong that she seems only to ready to lay down in the bed she has made and both men are aware of this, I think.

Marriage - isn't it usually started by some amount of idealization - or was I a freak?

The love and sex comments about marriage at those times, I would like to read more about this - essentially I view Dorothea as very lonely with her high ideals and concepts and longing for a 'mate' 'companion' to whom she could be a helpmate - so the fact that she might overlook sexual appeal or romantic love lies in this context. I think this is why she was so quick to agree to this ill-conceived marriage. But how did she view the alternatives - or what alternatives was she aware of.

For example, what would the education and upbringing of someone like her be composed of? Eliot became an adult and learned of much bigger worlds than those of her childhoot and likely knew the contrast.

Mippy~~ I, too, read the introduction of a novel, the blurbs, the jackets, anything but the NY Times review and BOTM Club's reviews. I think they are paid for, slanted and biased depending on WHO is the publisher.

I am not saying that Sir James has any right to judge -- only that that is the way he deals with his rejection. I think that Eliot is throwing in a little of Shakespeare in hopes that one will delve into his thoughts of what happened to Desdemona.
I think that Dorothea is way too full of herself, in hopes that herself can satisfy and "quench" Mr. Cause's brilliance. DREK!

I come from the gentry. I have my geneology back to 1647. On my great great great great grandmothers tombstone is the words. Loved wife mother etc and loved mistress of all her servants. One of the properties my ancestors owned was a house in Stratford On Avon. They also had an estate in the country and other houses and land. I have a photo ( not very good) of the family home on the estate which is being lived in to this day! I have copies of all the property transactions, wills etc. We even have a family scandal. One of the sons of the household in 1827 ran away with a maid! Then I see they have a child born 7mths after their marriage and then they emigrated to NZ. My ancestor who came here was a Silversmith. He trained as one when he ran away. He still inherited, as my great grandparent were very well off and lived in the best part of Auckland and had the library and silver services etc. My great grandfather had walls of first editions and leather bound books.

I am not well off however as the eldest son in my grandfathers family inherited and Grandpa got a lot less money than his brother. That is what it was like in those families. Although the law said differently here the children all accepted that the estate would not be divided equally. They still held to the English ways.

My great grandmother spoke like the Queen and was very stern cold and regal. She ruled supremely over all her children until her death when I was about four. I was taken to see her at her request on her death bed. I can remember being frightened. My grandfathers family was very daunting and proper. I liked my grandmothers Scottish family much better.

My grandfather called his mother Mama and his father Pater we had to call our Great grandmother. Great grandmama.

Joan K. I see, I guess I didn't really know what was meant by the word gentry. Then I see why C doesn't act like a pastor, he just wears the gown, so to speak. So far I havn't found a deeply Christian believer in the lot, but I am under the impression that each one follows their own version of Christianity while not straying too far afield, because being an Atheist in Middlemarch would be tantamount to being a criminal.

Sir James is not a member of the peerage. He is a baronet, similar to a knight. The title is hereditary and he is addressed as Sir.

Andy--I think the reference to Desdemona carries with it Sir James' sense that Dorothea rejected "the wealthy curled darlings" who courted her (and who would have been appropriate for her, like he would have been). I don't see any racism here.

I have no idea what that Italian proverb is telling us so I have given up on it. I usually give up on proverbs pretty quickly if I don't get them.

DEEMS: I stand corrected. So Sir James is the level below the peerage (and presumably couldn't sit in the House of Lords).

BBC: "For example, what would the education and upbringing of someone like her be composed of?" Eliot tells us in her description of "Miss Lemon's finishing school" Basically, it's to have the manners and style of a lady, and enough "culture" (music, art, French, poetry) to seem cultured, but not enough to be serious about any of those things.

Vincy is a manufacturer, with enough money to live like a gentleman, but without the family connections to be accepted as one. By sending his daughter to "finishing school", she can acquire the style to marry into the gentry and become a lady. But she fails to snag any of the brothers of her upper-class schoolmates as husband, and so is left to come back to Middlemarch, ashamed of her working-class mother and looking down on the middle-class boys she grew up with. And then Lydgate shows up.

When I was a city girl who just bought a ranch in Trinity County I ask the ladies in the church choir how I should grow melons on my property. They all said, "Melons take much pampering, summer heat, sandy soil and lots of water." Now I suppose pleasure could also take lots of heat???? I did manage good melons in the creek bed but the dang raccons loved em too.

I am sure James is still "hiding" some feelings for Dorthea and as the book continues we will see how much this effects his life and perhaps Celias too. However I am just getting introduced to new characters and have some comments for later on.

I was annoyed at Dorthea for not wanting to take over C's house and redecorat. Instead she is annoyed that everything is in good shape and the tenants well taken care of. How can she be the lady of charity from the Manor house if there is no need. She is vexed for sure at this point but decides she will be anykind of wife C wants.

Now I must read a few more chapters. fae

I'm enjoying all the comments and observations. I just love Eliot's writing style, philosophical musings and all. And the advice to the reader not to make any hasty judgements! After giving us tons of information, enough to set ones teeth on edge over the goings on. Just the same, I wouldn't let anything spoil this book for me. I think I will feel better for being able to say that I have read MM. I can't get over how much effort Eliot puts into explaining Sir James's state of mind after losing out to Mr Casaubon. On and on she goes for pages. And then comes up with the strange situation in which he, Sir James begins to enjoy a fine relationship with Dorothea on his visits to the Grange, while Casaubon's courtship with Dorothea becomes problematical for him, with disillusionment setting in almost immeditaely. I feel a bit overwhelmed by this total preoccupation with coupling of the marriageable Middlemarchers. I don't know what to say.

For Question I, regarding the quick readjustment of matrimonial expectations, I think we get a good indication of things to come in the short exchange in the middle of Chapter 10, between Dorothea and her betrothed, when Casaubon informs Dorothea he will need some time out on their honeymoon in Rome, for some research in the Vatican archives. Dorothea is left unhappy. She becomes 'rather haughty' in her reply. Casaubon's reply was reasonable as expected, but 'had a vague instantaneous sense of aloofness.' The one haughty! The other aloof! Distinctly not a lovers' quarrel.

And Celia is smiling on Sir James!

Eloise, I found it interesting to hear that you don't see any deeply Christian believer in the lot. They'll be coming out of the woodwork shortly. There, I hope I haven't spoiled it for anyone. There's a strong evangelical party in Middlemarch, led by the stalwart Mr Bulstrode. And Dorothea. She believes herself to be an ardent Chritian. Doesn't she feel herself to be like Christian in Bunyon's Pilgrim's Progress. That seems to be on her reading list, along with the other inspirational stuff she reads.

And now she wants to learn more from her new teacher. That has always been the perfect set-up for romance. Teacher and pupil. If only one or the other had had the least inclination. I was hoping we would be treated to another Heloise and Abelard affair. But it was not meant to be...Flora

Casubon I believe really did not want to marry. After all he was past middle age and for those days quite elderly and apparently quite settled in to the bachelor life.

He was flattered by Dorotheas obvious adoration and the whole relationship got out of hand.

I have read Middlemarch before and have to admit some of the lengthy passages dissecting the characters bore me. I think Eliot goes into more detail than we really need and it stops the flow of the whole novel.

I am a great fan of English literature of this genre and although I like Eliot there are other authors of this period that keep my attention better than she does.

Carolyn

Well even though D. may know nothing about sex per se she still has sexual feelings otherwise she would be a freak. She is NOT a freak. However it seems to me that is why Eliot keeps bringing up Saints..First Theresa and then on page 81 Saint Barbara(Saint Barbara looking out from her tower): Saint Barbara ,who lived in the third or forth century, was thought to have been locked up in a tower by her father so that her great beauty would not be marred by the outside world. Her Father also sought to curb her desire to help the poor.

The Saints put their sexual desire into other venues..like God and good works and learning. The only way a poor girl could learn to read was through the Catholic Church. D. is not a poor girl monetarily but missing a mother and father to confer with about isues such as getting married. So sometimes I remember that and I feel sorry for her and forgive her for all the mistakes and messes she will undoubetdly fall into.

Perhaps "the older man syndrome" is because Causabon has to fulfill the role of Husband and Father for her. Eliot did not need Freud to refer to but Freud, I am sure, read Eliots novels. She is a wise master of Psychology, especially femine psychology of the time.

But Causabon reflects (on page 79 Chap.X)"that though he had won a lovely and noble hearted girl he had not won delight-which he also regarded as an object to be found by search." Oh dear, oh dear where is this mismatched pair heading? I can't wait till next week to find out, so I will read ahesd...Forgive me.

Judy

Do you begin to sense the "autumnal" aspects of the novel when Dorothea first visits Casaubon's home?

I'm not entirely sure what this means. Are you referring to the withering or decline of their enthusiasm for the wedding?

What is her reaction to Lowick?

Her reaction is to think that everything is as she would wish, hallowed, and nothing fit to alter. However, that said, she is put off by the lack of duties available to further her "great works" concept.

Why was it considered a mistake to turn down his invitation to do some redecorating?

Oh goodness! As it states, "A woman dictates before marriage in order that she may have an appetite for submission afterwards." LOL

I think she neglects to change anything because she thinks this will please C. Yet, I don't get the impression that he gives a fig one way or 'tother. He seems only concerned with himself.

Scootz, Kleo and others, Hardy’s Far From the Madding Crowd is on my list to read in October, so I know I will recall your comments and compare the styles of Hardy and Eliot since I will be reading them at the same time.

Scootz, thanks for mentioning the Book Nook. I have previously checked it out and even voted for the selection for the Around the World book discussion.

I would agree that the narrator of the book is the author herself. Her voice becomes much stronger in this second section of Book 1! As an instructor in a Jane Eyre discussion group said, “This was a very common device, another trend in the nineteenth century novel. In literary criticism it's called the "intrusive narrator."” I think intrusive is a good word! The narrator is really trying to influence the thoughts and opinions of the readers.

I do not read the introduction before starting a book. I made that mistake once. I must say, that because I had not read the book, the analysis was not at all valuable to me anyway. In a Barnes and Noble University discussion group on a classic, led by the woman who wrote the introduction for the book, she said that she did not think that the introduction was the place to put such a scholarly paper, but the editors of the book insisted it be placed as an introduction. Too bad the editors didn’t listen to her.

When Eliot is writing a dialogue between two characters, or telling the story of people’s actions, I find the reading to be easy to follow and enjoyable. When Eliot is being the intrusive narrator or going on and on about the thoughts and feelings of the characters and society, I have a hard time not tuning out! I think this has to do with the way I like to form my opinions and analyze things. I like to see or hear the action for myself and make my own decisions about what I saw and heard. I don’t like to read someone else’s synopsis of the scene and their interpretation of it. For example, I like to watch speeches and news conferences live, not read the articles about them in the paper the next day. I think Eliot spends far too much time trying to explain rather than just tell the story.

Good morning!
What a wealth of comment these chapters have provoked already! Between George Eliot and you, her readers - together she/we have produced something quite...rich - Whether or not we agree on everything, I think and hope that each will come away from this experience with a better understanding of Eliot, the period ...and ourselves and how we look at life, our past and our present. Perhaps our future.

Laura, do you think that Eliot's style was more necessary at the time when so people did not have the background, the education...to interpret the larger world around them - or the ability to observe how their psyches were affected by society? Eliot seems to be providing a birds eye view - something most of us are incapable of doing as we go about our daily lives and concerns.

It's fascinating the varied reactions we are getting here to Eliot's writing style. Where do you find yourself after reading the first book?

Flora~ "I'm enjoying all the comments and observations. I just love Eliot's writing style, philosophical musing and all. And the advice to the reader not to make any hasty judgments..."

Carolyn - "I have read Middlemarch before and have to admit some of the lengthy passages dissecting the characters bore me. I think Eliot goes into more detail than we really need and it stops the flow of the whole novel."

I'll admit to some "scrolling" through some of the musings, but have found after reading ahead, that I'm ALWAYS going back to reread those parts. And I'm always underlining things that I'm not understanding...because I'm learning that Eliot had good reason to include them. At this point, I'm enjoying the novel IN SPITE OF some of the long paragraphs and labored sentences. What sort of things are you underlining or noting?

Such fantastic and plentiful input yesterday, impossible to comment on the specifics yet, but know that what you contribute is so much appreciated - and helpful in overall comprehension. Laura, there is so much NOT included in the writing that you all bring to the table.

Some top-of-the-iceberg observations...

Fae, we had about given up on the proverb introducing Chapter VII as Casaubon and Dorothea begin to realize what their future will be like together. You helped us understand that the proverb is something of a warning..."pleasure and melons want the same weather." From your experience - "Melons take much pampering, summer heat, sandy soil and lots of water." Lots of attention necessary, lots of attention to the real needs of the individual plant, not obvious at first. Summer heat, sandy soil, lots of water - who knew? "Pleasure" is obviously not in their future - no summer heat!

Andy, Mippy, Alliemae, Maryal - your exchange regarding the Desdimona/Othello aspects brought a chill of forboding - in suggesting the fate of the innocent Dorothea and her husband's unreasonable jealousy.

Weren't you surprised that it was Casaubon who felt the lack of passion in the relationship? He seemed first to blame D., but doesn't he sense some failure in himself? I was dumbfounded...and frankly, thought it was a bit out of character. I will say though that I found it endearing. Eliot seems to be showing another side to his character. He is not just a caricature of an egghead scholar. He lives and breathes. Flora, does he sense that Dorothea is marrying him as a tutor? Why does this seem to sadden him?

bbc, you see Dorothea as "very lonely"? Is that how the rest of you see her? I'm not sure at this point. Does she seek intellectual fellowship with Casaubon or does she want to learn Latin and Greek from him - as Anne sees it. Flora notes Dorothea's unhappiness when she learns that he really wants her to concern herself elsewhere (go shopping?) while he does some research in Rome during their honeymoon. Didn't that HURT the way Eliot portrayed it? Didn't you hurt for her? This had to be a real eye-opener for the young bride to be!

Fae - You were annoyed at Dorothea's lack of interest in adding a woman's touch to C.'s dated, musty dwelling. Had he hoped she'd turn it into a home? Scootz doesn't think he cares one way or another - "I think she neglects to change anything because she thinks this will please C. He seems only concerned with himself." I felt she made a mistake coming in as a sort of boarder, rather than an equal partner in the marriage. What do you all think?

Such varied reactions to what we are learning about the inhabitants of Middlemarch in this introductory book:
Do we find love? Eloise notes that Dorothea is not in love with either Casaubon or Sir James? Did anyone marry for love? Was love or passion even considered when choosing a mate? I think we are finding a few characters who are capable of love - Rev. Cadwallader is one. Who else?

Religion - Eloise doesn't see "deep Christian beliefs" - (brotherly love?) - Flora reminds us of Dorothea's strong Christian leanings, her desire to do good for her less blessed neighbors. And the "strong evangelical party" in Middlemarch. Remember Sir James was worried that Dorothea might be involved with the MORAVIAN BRETHREN? Am I right when I think of the Brookes, Cadwalladers, Sir James, etc. as Anglicans? Who were the strong Evangelicals? We need to learn more about religion at the time, and what part it is playing in the upheaval in society at this time.

We are beginning to learn the differences in the social classes..are the differences beginning to merge, or blend at period in history? I mean, if Mr. Brooke is at or near the top of the pecking order, what do you make of the folks he's invited to dinner? Did the gentry and those in the trades really intermingle do you suppose? I like the way Eliot set up the dinner party to introduce the new characters, the manufacturers, the bankers, etc.

THere is SO much here! I'm glad we have all week to disentangle the metaphors. Off to shop for that elusive dress today. Can't wait to come back and relax with your posts. You guys are something else! I've never seen anything like it!

The other day, I answered a question re Hardy and Eliot and whether Hardy commented on the characters as Eliot did. I wasn't very far into the reading at that point and didn't think he did. I must correct what I said. He very clearly DOES comment on the characters as a narrator,has full chapters in which the narrator examines a character. And as I go further and further, I see many similarities to Eliot that I hadn't seen before. Ok...just wanted to correct that.

Good luck, Joan. I'll keep my fingers and toes crossed. Remember (to the tune from West Side Story:

There's a dress for me 
A perfect dress for me....

This is great. Things are really popping. There is so much to think about and discuss in this section.

On the redecorating: I agree with Joan: "I felt she made a mistake coming in as a sort of boarder, rather than an equal partner in the marriage."

But I also kind of understand it. As someone who has no interest at all in home decoration (I've only lived here 35 years -- someday I'll get around to putting up curtains, but there always seems to be something more interesting to do) I feel she really doesn't care.

But (unlike me) I think she really doesn't care about a lot of things. Do you feel that? She really doesn't care about a lot of things that women were supposed to care about -- music, painting, dress. Is this coincidence? or is she unconsciously avoiding anything she associates with women's role? What do you think?

Scootz--I'm the one who asked about whether Hardy commented or not. Thank you for answering again after having read further. It has been some time since I've read Hardy and I couldn't remember.

Let's all keep our collective fingers crossed for Joan P to find THE dress for the wedding. I don't think she's enjoying this process very much and she needs our support. My suggestion would be to get a dress that she might possibly wear again. After all, she is the mother of the groom and can downdress a little. The mother of the bride is the one who has to have all the feathers and frufru. True?

Thank you, Fae, for describing the care and tending of a melon. I was pretty sure that someone here knew more about gardening/farming than I do. So, they need to be carefully tended and they need good weather.

One of the most significant descriptions of Mr. Casaubon occurs just after this epigraph, at the beginning of chapter seven. Here's the section:

MR CASAUBON, as might be expected, spent a great deal of his time at the Grange in these weeks, and the hindrance which courtship occasioned to the progress of his great work -- the Key to all Mythologies -- naturally made him look forward the more eagerly to the happy termination of courtship. But he had deliberately incurred the hindrance, having made up his mind that it was now time for him to adorn his life with the graces of female companionship, to irradiate the gloom which fatigue was apt to hang over the intervals of studious labour with the play of female fancy, and to secure in this, his culminating age, the solace of female tendance for his declining years. Hence he determined to abandon himself to the stream of feeling, and perhaps was surprised to find what an exceedingly shallow rill it was.

My translation into contemporary English:

Mr. Casaubon had to spend a good deal of time at the Grange as a result of the engagement. But he had taken this step himself in order to have a woman around to lighten his gloom from so much study and to entertain him. He's getting older so she would also be useful for attending him in his "declining years." But even though he had determined to abandon himself to FEELING, he was surprised to see how little FEELING there was in him.

This man is cold, cold as the grave.

He should hire a housekeeper and a nurse.

Maryal

P.S. Hi, JoanK--Blinds work well. I am very much against "window treatments." I have a dust allergy and anything whose nature is to gather dust stays out of the house.

Joan P. "Am I right when I think of the Brookes, Cadwalladers, Sir James, etc. as Anglicans? Who were the strong Evangelicals?" I think so too, but I don't see strong Evangelicals yet. Eliot is hiding the religious conflicts for now, I think.

What I fail to see is a love of God as I have not yet been able to discern it in how the characters relate to each other. They all claim to be doing their Christian duty which is not the most important message of the Bible, but it is the love of God. Dorothae wants to build cottages for the poor, sure, with the means at her disposition nothing is more rewarding that to try to help the poor. I have to smile imagining the aristocracy going from hovel to hovel in their beautiful carriages wearing their lavish gowns telling them to bear their fate happily for it is rewarding. She too is following the status quo, but I detect an undercurrent of rebellion in her that might surprise us as her superior intelligence will lead her to higher goals.

The male characters seem to be doing what has been done for generations, falling into the mold because the status quo is much less demanding than changing both the political and in the religious practices they are used to.

I could be wrong, but I think we will see a push for women's emancipation by our sweet docile Dorothae, but at the same time, the men of Middlemarch will definitely find every excuse to prevent them from achieving it. I am only guessing by what I read about the life of Eliot on the jacket of my book.

Eliot is not out to write novels just for the fame and glory that goes with it, she no doubt will lay the ground work for women's liberation of the proverbial shackles that women bore at the time the book was written.

So much to talk about and so little time.

Éloïse

Eloise: I bet you're right. Remember in the beginning, Eliot said something like: sane men do what their neighbors do. That way if there are any lunatics around, you know who they are and can avoid them.

My husband quoted me something from a math book he was reading ("The Equation that Couldn't be Solved") something like: irrational men expect the world to adapt to them; rational men adapt to the world. Thus all progress depends on irrational men.

Sir James compares Dorothea after her rejection to Desdemona. Although there are similar aspects in both women's lives, I'm not sure I would have compared them to each other. For one thing Casaubon has none of the passion that Othello showed for his wife. On the other hand it is almost certain that Dorothea will be greatly wronged at one point or anther by her cold, loveless mate, as Desdemona was. But Othello was driven to act the way he did by treachery I can't see Casaubon coming to the same conclusion even if some treachery were to occur. The only passion Casaubon is for his work or for himself.

Many people who know about Dorothea and Casaubon's match are greatly concerned. But the desire to help on Sir James's part is due more to his regard for Dorothea's well-being than his pain at being jilted. Sir James proves himself to be a decent and kind-hearted man, and a good friend to Dorothea.

Eliot throughout this novel protrays her characters as gray rather than black or white. Why than does she protray Sir James as she does? It makes you wonder if there isn't more to Sir James as meets the eye.

JOAN & ELOISE, if I'm not mistaken, the Methodists were the 'dissenting' religion at this time. With a strong appeal to the lower and middle classes, it was largely scorned by the Gentry. With the exception of some old Catholic families, most of the upper classes were Anglican.

Religion was very much a part of the social order, but excesses were frowned upon. Which is why Dorothea's strongly religious leanings were the source of some embarassment to her family.

Eliots characters are complex, and therefore realistic. I don't know if I would describe them as 'gray', Scrawler. Perhaps multi-hued?

Babi

Judy is the only person who seemed to understand what I was referring to re: sexual feelings repressed by Victorian culture. I could not have explained it as well as she did. That is what I love about book discussions.

I also have noticed there is a lack of loving action taking place in this novel so far. Perhaps I will read on with an eye out for such to take place soon.

I was sorry for Dorthea when C requested time to himself on the "honeymoon." faith

Dorothea did not want to change Casubons house in any way because the decor of the house fitted in the romanticised idea she had about how the house of a scholar should look. That woman really does have her head in the clouds!

Carolyn

I don't understand this sentence about Sir James. " pride only helps us to be generous; (how so does pride do that, is my question) ? it never makes us so, any more than vanity makes us witty." How does arrogance, and overconfidence lead us to be generous? Pride, as in self-admiration, does she mean?

I agree Kiwi lady- Dorothea is enamoured with her "soon to be home." Or should we call it the mausoleum? Let us hope that she doesn't become too buried in this vault of marriage.

Poor Sir James...what a blow! He has it all, looks, rank, money, youth - and is willing to support Dorothea's projects, which we know her uncle is not paying for. And now this. His pride, his vanity is understandably hurt. He is consoled by the fact that he hadn't actually proposed yet. The way I took quote on generosity...his pride forced him to continue working on the cottages with Dorothea AFTER her announced proposal - so that he would save face. Everyone would think that the cottages had nothing to do with his feelings for Dorothea.

Carolyn, did you notice that Celia had no trouble selecting a room for Dorothea?...and that Casaubon was pleased that she did. It was a nice room which had belonged to his mother. I think he wanted a woman's touch - part of the reason he decided to marry. That and Dorothea's secretarial skills, of course.

Who are the Evangelicals, Babi? Are they calling the Methodists evangelical? Mrs. Calwallader keeps referring to Dorothea's "Methodistical ways" ...and yet there are references to St. Theresa, St. Barbara...are these not Catholic saints? Still confused. Maybe we need to read more?

Still no dress for me
No perfect dress for me...

Within my own family and my own children the child with the highest IQ ( they all have high IQs in general) took the longest of all of the children to mature emotionally. There was no common sense or judgement of people ( particularly males!). It is only now I can say my child is mature. I have observed this amongst some of my friends as well.

The lack of the common sense factor I think has a lot to do with why some highly intelligent people never succeed in life because their decision making mechanism is flawed. They do say that a high IQ is no guarantee of Success.

Carolyn

I am so glad I don't have to "go back in time" to the Middlemarch we are reading about. Such a terrible thing to be of the gentility. So rigid, so bound in tradition and social "place". If I did go back I would rather be a farmers kid caring for the animals and land than going through what I call social fal de rol.

I have read the last chapters of book one twice now and still do not know if I can state how I think these three young men look at Dorthea. She seems to have very little to do with them. Fred is all involved with his own problems of inheritance and what to do with his life plus his attachment to Mary Garth so he seems oblivious at this point to what is going on in Dorthea's life.He and Rosemond both seem very self-centered.More about how I see Rosemond later.

Seemed that the Dr. was very impatient with D's personality at the dinner party and he also was disinterested in her life and marriage. Now Will on the other hand was amused by Dorthea but felt she must be as dried up as his cousin C if she was going to (and did) marry him. I think Will is the one we may watch in relation to D as the book continues. All three seemed unimpressed with either her mind her beauty or her position in life. I didnt think any of them cared one way or another about her marriage except to think it mighty odd that D would marry old C. faith

I think Alliemae was onto something when she talked about Casaubon being soooo inferior to Sir James as a man. I think Sir James was upset, not so much because Dorothea did not choose him to marry, but that instead of him, she chose Casaubon. The decision makes Sir James question his own place in society if he lost to someone he sees as below him, maybe not in terms of actual status, but certainly in terms of popularity.

Based on what I have deduced from this week’s reading, I think both Dorothea and Casaubon are using stereotypical ways of assessing their relationship with each other and the feelings they are having. They don’t seem to have any actual previous relationships upon which to draw for experience, so they are left with just notions.

I think Scrawler’s idea that Casaubon thinks of Dorothea as an instrument rather than a person is very interesting. I think this idea could be further substantiated with future reading.

I don’t see any signs yet that Sir James is going to transfer his affections to Celia. I assume someone will start meddling soon! LOL

Like Scootz and Maryal, I found the straight forward, non-meddling personality of Mr. Cadwallader to be refreshing.

Thanks to Carolyn for sharing her personal story!

I, like Fae, was annoyed at Dorothea for not wanting to make any changes Casaubon’s house. I find Dorothea to be too accepting of him and his ways. I think she should be more assertive. I know that societal norms of the time called for women to bow to their husbands’ wishes, but I still think Dorothea could assert herself more, especially when it comes to the house.

The old Methodists compared with the Methodists of today were very fundamentalist and very evangelical. They shunned the trappings and wealth associated with the two main Churches of the day.They often held open air meetings and their churches were very plain and spartan. They were known as "The Methodies" amongst the working class and referred to their churches as Chapels rather than churches.

There was a social divide between those who attended chapel and those who attended church. Those who attended chapel were likely to be mainly working class. Those who attended Church ( Church of England) were mainly middle class or Upper class as well as those servants who felt obliged to attend their masters church. Most villages were inhabited by persons who worked for the Local Landowner. Chapel people were often self employed or worked for lesser gentry.

Carolyn

Joan P, I understand what you are saying with regards to Eliot’s style being necessary at the time. So far, the book is about people in a small town, people who all are part of the same circle. Further, I assume that the readers of Middlemarch at the time it was published would be gentry as well. I can’t imagine that the skill of reading was widespread. Therefore, I assume the readers of the time are reading about people like themselves. If that assumption is correct (maybe it isn’t), do readers really need to have the author’s opinions of the characters and their actions? I think not. However, as far as tying them into larger, bird’s eye views, I think the readers of the time did lack that ability. I doubt they had traveled much outside their own country, maybe even region, at that time. I am going to keep this idea of a larger view in mind.

Carolyn, now I understand about Methodists. Catholicism was the official (the others were just tolerated) religion in Quebec until after the war. Exactly, there is a hiararchy in religion too, with the upper class going to church and the lower class to chapel. Now a lot about the book makes more sense to me.

Anglicans and Methodists never associated together socially even in church I guess, but are Methodists called Evangelicals today? Is that what you mean?

Joan P. About St. Theresa and St. Barbara. Only Catholics have saints, but did I forget if D mentioned those saints or was it the narrator who did? I am very forgetful. Because if she did, she would have been exposed to Catholicism in the past, if she didn't then, we will find out how religion will affect them.

ALF, pride is such a difficult subject. It's not always arrogance and over-confidence. Sir James 'pride' in his response to Dorothea's choice could be called vanity, or it could be called self-respect, ie., he would not behave badly in this situation.

People who behave arrogantly out of what they call pride are, IMO, a pretty shallow lot. It often seems to me this sort of 'pride' occurs most often when it rests on something which they have not themselves earned. Self-pride because Daddy is important, or rich, or because great-granddaddy was knighted is truly foolish.

Aren't the Brookes "county" people? That is, country gentry with certain traditional responsibilities in the county? Middlemarch is the closest town, but they don't actually live there. People coming by train to visit, of course, will detrain at MiddleMarch.

Babi

KIWI, thanks for that great post about the Methodists. I was thinking about how I could answer Jean's question, when I found you already had. ELOISE, Methodists today are definitely not considered Evangelicals. I don't know where and how the term arose in connection with Middlemarch, so I can't comment on that.

Eloise,

The author is the one who talks about Saints and draws corollaries for us to decipher.Many of the readers of the time were familiar with the Saints even though they were not Catholic. Remember this book was published in parts (18 parts I think) so that readers had to wait for the next episode...the next cliffhanger if you will. Also more than the Gentry learned to read and write when Eliot was writing. For many years England provided 4 or 5 years of education for a large part of the population. Therefore the publishing trade was always looking for stories that would interest "Gentlemen and Ladies". This book filled the bill then even more than it does now.

Judy

I don’t see Dorothea as lonely, but as detached. She doesn’t seem to relate to other people well, and doesn’t try to understand them. As JoanK suggested, she does seem to be rejecting interests that are traditional for women to have. I wonder if she is so determined to do great things that she feels she has to reject normal, everyday relationships and interests.

I did feel very badly for Dorothea when Casaubon wanted her to bring Celia on the honeymoon because he would be busy with his work. Oh, good grief! It’s their honeymoon! That doesn’t bode well…

Still no dress for me 
No perfect dress for me...sob..

CAROLYN: “Within my own family and my own children the child with the highest IQ ( they all have high IQs in general) took the longest of all of the children to mature emotionally”.I agree. I’ve known many people like that.

FAITH: good description of the three men. You think Will is the one to watch? We’ll find out!

LAURA: “Dorothea and Casaubon are using stereotypical ways of assessing their relationship with each other and the feelings they are having. They don’t seem to have any actual previous relationships upon which to draw for experience, so they are left with just notions.” Excellent point. We forget how inexperienced both of them are with social relationships: D due to age; C. due to choice.

Do you think the other characters in the book do a better job?

Thank you. CAROLYN, for describing the religious situation. I don’t think we’ve met any Methodists yet (at least to know it), but we haven’t really met any working class people in detail yet. I’m hoping we will later.

I took the references to D’s Methodistical ways" to refer to the depth of emotion and sacrifice of her religion, not it’s content. I attended an Episcopalian (Anglican) church for some years, and the services are quite restrained. Restraining emotion is part of the culture in upper class Britain (stiff upper lip and all that), or at least that is the American stereotype. D.’s religious behavior would have stood out. I imagine the Methodists were seen as being more emotional and evangelical (whether they actually were or not

LAURA: “I don’t see Dorothea as lonely, but as detached. She doesn’t seem to relate to other people well, and doesn’t try to understand them.” A very good point. For all the description of Dorothea, she doesn’t emerge clearly in my mind. I feel Eliot does too much describing what she’s like, and not enough showing us through her words. If you only take her words, she does seem not to relate to the people around her. Does anyone else feel that?

Dorothea and the redecorating. I don't think she really has an interest in decorating the house or in choosing a bedroom for that matter, but if she DID have an interest, she wouldn't do anything anyway because giving up changing that house is yet another renunciation. Remember when, I think it was her sister said that Dorothea liked giving up things?

Methodists--yes, they were called "Evangelicals" at the time. The Methodist Church, like so many of the denominations, broke off from the Church of England because they saw a church that was largely separated from the poor and the laboring. Good works weren't much in the Anglican community at the time. Carolyn's explanation of Methodists is good. Later, they become a standard denomination, but originally they were considered pretty zealous especially when compared with the strait-laced Church of England.

As for Protestants knowing about Catholic saints--yes they did and do. Remember that for many hundreds of years there was only the Catholic Church, Roman and Greek. All Christian groups have a common heritage. Saints were stressed in Catholic churches but many Protestants admired them too. You didn't have to be a Catholic to have a statue of St. Francis and the animals in your fountain.

Except for not following the dictates of the Pope, high church Anglicans are pretty Catholic in their beliefs and worship.

The intrusive narrator is pretty common in novels of this period. I don't know whether it was because of the reading public or whether it simply became a trend. I'm going to look for an example.

Maryal

HI Joan K--We're both here at the same time. Yes, Methodists were considered pretty rowdy by the standards of the day. They were great singers. And they were full of enthusiasm.

I am fighting some kind of computer virus or trojan or whatever so I may end up off line.

Over here the Methodists often speak out on social issues. Great defenders of the poor and down and outs! The late Great David Lange ( very unusual previous Prime Minister of NZ) humble man and great orator was a Methodist. His kids said they used to be ashamed of their dad because they would bring home kids from school and he would be lounging round the house on holidays in a lava lava and not much else. On Sunday mornings he would sing hymns and cook breakfast for the family. He lived in the modest working class suburb of Mangere til his death and shopped at the local stores even when Prime Minister. His constiuency had a lot of Polynesian residents. David was kept in line by his very strict Methodist mother who often told him although he was Prime Minister he better not get too big for his boots.

Mr Brooke although not mentioned much here in this discussion is a little different from other inhabitants of the village in that he is very interested in exploring new ideas and moves in and out of his class. However he is chary about allowing his nieces to mix too much because he may incur the wrath of Mrs Cadwallader and worthy ladies of the Parish. Mr Brooke does not like conflict as he is a man who likes everything in his life to stay on an even keel and he does not like anything or anyone to rock the boat.

Carolyn

Can there be another author who tries so hard to understand and explain her characters. Eliot seems almost to be in a dialogue with them. Just as she seems to be in a constant dialogue with her readers. I get an impression of bonding among author, characters, and readers. That's all missing in modern writing. The reader is left on her own. Was it Sir James who suggested to the author a reference to the Desdemona/Othello tragedy, in order to throw a light on his own feelings as the rejected lover. Or a clever device to help him turn a rage of jealousy into an acceptable pity for his lost love? Perhaps it only became a 'loss' for having been rejected. Wanting Dorothea for a wife seems to have been initiated by Mrs Cadwallader.

But losing out to Casaubon did shake him up. As indicative of his feelings we get descriptive terms such as 'mortification', 'bitterness', 'irritated egoism', 'vexation' and jealousy in the form of a snide remark about Casaubon's legs, both of them. All this in the early parts of Ch 8. It must have been a very difficult, perplexing situation in which to find himself. To get out of it with dignity, with pride intact, without doing anything less than the noble thing to do, Sir James made use of the great historical romance in such a way, turning it on its head in fact, making it seem like it was the exploited irrational behaviour of Dorothea that allowed Sir James to sublimate a strong, imagined jealousy and vexation into an 'uneasiness' in greeting Dorothea, after the fact, to resume a mutually pleasing relationship. And, instead of a rash action, a civilized appeal to the rector, Mr Cadwallader, to intervene. With Mr Brooke, not his wife, presumably. That leaves only the 'forked lightning' phenomenon to be explained.

What did these young men (Fred Vincy,Lydgate, Will Ladislaw) think of someone like Dorothea Brooke?

Firstly, Will Ladislaw sees a dichotomy with Dorothea. He at first considers that she must not be a very nice person if she were marrying Casaubon. But yet, her voice and laughter indicate passion to him. How can this be, he thinks? (BTW- good observation, Will!)

Lydgate thinks her a nice girl, but "too earnest". He seems to see the opposite of Will. No passion, but nice enough. He wants an adornment type of wife.

Fred Vincy-(now here's one for the books, this guy!) - sorry, I don't find him saying anything about D. Maybe I missed it(?). He's such a scoundrel however, that I hardly think D his type.

Laura- I do think D is lonely, but she doesn't allow herself to have any negative feelings. There is a tiny hint here after C talks about taking Celia with them on the honeymoon...

"She was ashamed of being irritated from some cause she could not define even to herself;for though she had no intention to be untruthful , her reply had not touched the real hurt within her."

She's hurt, but doesn't realize or admit it.

daytripper said:

Can there be another author who tries so hard to understand and explain her characters. Eliot seems almost to be in a dialogue with them. Just as she seems to be in a constant dialogue with her readers. I get an impression of bonding among author, characters, and readers

Well, I do think that many Victorian writers wrote this way, with tons of asides, and outside-looking-in views of their characters. I don't agree though, that this bond with characters is missing in today's writing. I don't need the asides, etc to feel that link. JMHO....

on Eliot- On rereading chapters, I find so much I missed the first time through. This is what I call "dense" writing, as opposed to breezy fluff. She's a challenge all right!

I'm thinking about this concept, been reading about it a bit. Found this....

"Clearly to say "intrusive narrator" is to say that the narrator is not always intrusive: the narrator has become obvious in this moment, throwing the story's frame suddenly into relief. The function of this vignette, and of the narrator's sudden appearance, is to problematize the framing of the tale and of this "sketch" that exists within it and yet contains it." *

This explains what Eliot is doing so clearly to me..like a "freeze frame" idea. She stops the action, like pushing the button on a remote and says, "OK, slow down now, let's take a closer look at this." She forces us to stand back and get a perspective on the characters.

* De-centered symbols in "Endicott and the Red Cross." Studies in Short Fiction, Fall, 1993 by Stephen Orton

I can't understand how to reply to a bunch of people's thoughts all in one post. When I arise in the morning and come here, there are many pages of posts. How do you flip back and forth whilst composing a single post to reply? I don't use the computer at night or I'd say I could reply more foten during the day so things don't get ahead of me, but no one else is here much during the day and all the posts appear overnight. Can anyone help me with this?

It's a problem, isn't it, Scootz! An overload of riches. Why not just reply to one or two, without replying to all?

I will share with you what I do. It might help. Look above the first post you see on this page - to find a button that says "Outline". Here you find all the posts without switching screens. You just hit "back" when you are finished reading one post to get back to the outlined list. Another thing I do is highlight points I want to comment on and paste them in Notepad, which I also keep open. It must sound complicated, but it works for me. Others may have other suggestions.

This morning we find the need in this discussion to point to the Book Discussion Guidelines - it is fine to bring relevant information from other sources to this discussion BUT the source must be included with the information. Do do otherwise is a serious violation of SN policy because it leads the reader to conclude that the work is your own and not from another source.

Sometimes it is okay to cite something you read elsewhere as Scootz just did in defining the "intrusive narrator's role" - she put it in quotes so we know that is not her own observation. That's fine. I love the term "intrusive narrator," Maryal. It so better describes George Eliot than to call her "omniscient! Flora's description says it all - "Eliot seems almost to be in a dialogue with them (her characters). Just as she seems to be in a constant dialogue with her readers." Intrusive, yes, but in a good way!

I was interested in yesterday's discussion about who was reading Middlemarch at its publication - Found this to expand on what Judy said yesterday - that it wasn't just the upper leisure classes who were reading at this time -

"In the 19th century, adult literacy increases markedly: attempts to provide education by the state, and self-help schemes are partly the cause and partly the result of the popularity of the novel. Publication in instalments means that works are affordable for people of modest means. The change in the reading public is reflected in a change in the subjects of novels: the high bourgeois world of Austen gives way to an interest in characters of humble origins. The great novelists write works which in some ways transcend their own period, but which in detail very much explore the preoccupations of their time." 19th century literacy

Have printed out yesterday's posts and will savor them with morning coffee - back soon...

Laura: "So far, the book is about people in a small town, people who all are part of the same circle" - Babi finds an even smaller community -

"Aren't the Brookes "county" people? That is, country gentry with certain traditional responsibilities in the county? Middlemarch is the closest town, but they don't actually live there."

This might explain the mixing of classes at the dinner party Mr. Brooke's home. The manufacturer, Vincy, the banker Bulstrode - they must be from the town of Middlemarch. If Mr. Brooke is serious about running for Parliament (is that what he's planning?) then he'll need to get the town of Middlemarch behind him, not just his small country circle, wouldn't you think? As Carolyn points out, he doesn't like conflict, but he mixes with the townies - Mrs. Cadwallader does not have influence in town.

Thank you all for the description of early Methodists as "evangelical." Babi, "the Methodists were the 'dissenting' religion at this time. With a strong appeal to the lower and middle classes, it was largely scorned by the Gentry" - Are the Vincys Methodist? From Carolyn's description - "They (the "Methodies") shunned the trappings and wealth associated with the two main Churches of the day"- I guess the answer is NO? As Joan K says, maybe we'll have to wait to meet the working class.

Does anyone know anything about the "Moravian Brethren?" Remember how worried Sir James was at the thought perhaps Dorothea had joined them?

Fae, why do you feel we need to watch Will Ladislaw? Do you sense sparks flying between them (as you did between D. and Casaubon? I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.) If you're right, we'd better pay him some attention and form some sort of "group" opinion of him now before he goes off to Europe (on his cousin's dime - to find himself. Why is Casaubon supporting this?) As you point out, he doesn't have much regard for Dorothea - no passion. But what are his positive qualities from the little we see? (I like a character in this novel who values PASSION - of any kind!)

ps. Ginny Ann, those Trojans are the worst! Hopefully your virus program will help remove them. Persist!

I don't understand this sentence about Sir James. " pride only helps us to be generous; (how so does pride do that, is my question) ? it never makes us so, any more than vanity makes us witty." How does arrogance, and overconfidence lead us to be generous? Pride, as in self-admiration, does she mean?

I don't understand it either and am anxious to see if anyone does. Nor do I understand the melons and pleasure thing,(as it relates to this book) even though there was a post about it. It's over my head, I guess.

This book club has seriously prompted me into more research, so here is a bit of information I wanted to share with you:

"The majority of women (happily for them) are not very much troubled with sexual feelings of any kind" - Dr. William Acton

Dr. Acton's books were very popular, and they suggest how much truth there was in our stereotypes of the constrained character of nineteenth-century English sexual behavior. In proper middle-class and upper-class circles, women were supposed to have no sexual conduct before marriage - a hand around the waist, a small kiss, and a fervent pressing of the hand was probably the accepted limit in most cases.

from this site: University of Wisconsin at Oshkosh: http://www.english.uwosh.edu/roth/VictorianEngland.htm

I have been trying to understand why Dorothea and others behave as they do - their choices or rather their view of their alternatives.

As a srong woman, I can only rejoice that I am alive in this age, since I would have fared poorly under these older contraints.

This is a very good book group, thanks for all.

There is a parallel between Casaubon and his house. Eliot describes the house as stern, melancholy-looking, and rather plain and uninviting. The vary qualities that Casaubon, himself, possesses. Does the dour look of the house combine with unanimous displeasure in the area about the marriage and Casaubon's ungenerous, cold demanor mean doom for the marriage? Does Dorothea have any chance in making the man or the house cheery and friendly?

Dorothea, in my opinion, seems to be overcompensating for her youth and "ignorance" by insisting on being the obedient, weak-willed wife, though these qualities are not in her nature. On the other hand,Ceilia seems a bit trival in some of her judgments and dislikes. We should, however, keep in mind that these girls if living today would be considered teenagers. I shudder to think what I would do if I were in their place.

Laidislaw is a very interesting character. Don't you think that Laidislaw is the male counter-part of Dorothea. He is young, rash, has strong opinions, with a great deal of pride. In fact Laidislaw has more in common with Dorothea, than Casaubon and Dorothea have. What is the old saying: opposites attract? Could this be aplied here between Dorothea and Casaubon.

Why not just reply to one or two, without replying to all?

Oh goodness, Joan, I'd mever try to reply to them all.

Was just trying to figure out the logistics. I guess I'll just have to do multiple postings in the morning.

That's a good site that bbc found. Joan P, you must go there if only to see the photographs of the flower girls at the very bottom of the page. (Joan has recently led a discussion of GB Shaw's Pygmalian.)

One of the interesting pieces of information on this page is the number of prostitutes in London at mid-century-----

"There were about 80,000 "gay" women (prostitutes) and "fancy men" (pimps) in London in the mid-nineteenth century. They congregated around Covent Garden and in the theater district. "

Victorian England

Scootz--I don't know what your computer is or if you are coming in through AOL. If it is AOL I can't help, but if you have any other connection, here's one way to do it.

Open up two browsers, both to the SeniorNet discussion. In both, go to Middlemarch.

Then, here's the tricky part--see that bottom bar on your computer where it shows you in small boxes where you are? Right next to your Start button?

With your mouse, RIGHT CLICK on the bar in one of the blank spaces. This will bring up a small menu. Choice three is "tile windows horizontally" and choice four is "tile windows vertically." I use the vertical one.

OK, you have two windows open to SeniorNet (Middlemarch). When you click on the tile windows option, both windows will appear on your screen, side by side or one on top of the other.

Then you can stay on one with your posting box and use the other to read the preceding messages. If you want to back up a page, click on "previous." You will find it on a row just below whatever the last message posted was.

Maryal

Casaubon feels the lack of passion, and wonders briefly if some lack in Dorothea could be the reason. To his credit (!), he quickly concludes that it isn’t her. He decides that the poets have traditionally exaggerated the depth of feeling accompanying romance and passion. Funny that he doesn’t seem to question his own capacities!

Joan, you said, “He is not just a caricature of an egghead scholar.” It is a credit to him that his tenants do not seem to be in want and they live in decent houses (a disappointment to Dorothea). Even if his inheritance included the well-structured and well-tended environment, his estate would not stay in good condition without proper attention. Another positive quality is his sense of responsibility to his relatives. Note the absence of the unfortunate aunt! I wonder what happened to her? C. doesn’t seem to be interested in her whereabouts or welfare. But her son, Will, that’s another matter. C. promised him an appropriate education, and intends to follow through with giving him the opportunities in the hope that he will “find himself,” in spite of his “general inaccuracy and indisposition to thoroughness of all kinds,” and “dislike to steady application.” Casaubon IMO, is a very responsible fellow, even if he is a cold stick, as dry as the last leaves on those barren Lowick trees. When he and Dorothea disagree about her need for another companion on their honeymoon, she blames herself for forgetting how superior he is: “How can I have a husband who is so much above me without knowing that he needs me less than I need him?” This is the belief that led her into the relationship with such eagerness: men like C. have a lock on the source of a special wisdom which she can only hope to approach with his careful guidance.

(Lowick -- a feeble light in a lantern? Or....)

Goodness, such riches this morning. I have to go soon, will be back later to reply:

Just a couple of things:

SCOOTZ: I use still another method. I don't like having two windows open at once: it confuses me. And I like to type any long post in my word processor first, because I've lost posts.

So I bring up Middlemarch, and have a word processor document minimized on the bar at the bottom of the screen. When I want to respond to something, I click to bring it up, type my response. and click to minimize it again. When I'm through all the posts, I bring it up, edit, and then cut and paste into the "post message" box.

On prostitutes: some historians feel that the number of prostitutes was the other side of the sexual prudery which was typical of the Victorian era. Ladies were not supposed to have any sexual feelings, certainly not to enjoy sex. Their husbands were assumed to indulge their worse passions outside the home, but no one talked about it.

Thanks Joan and Maryal. I'll experiment with your ideas.

I'm not too much on the politics, etc of Victorian Times but did find this and I refer to it often.

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~khickok/victoriannovel.html

The Victorian Middle Class, Gentry and Aristocracy held the view that if a woman showed she enjoyed sex she was a wanton and immoral woman. That included wives. There were exceptions in more modern thinking people. Many men had mistresses in their own class but they were generally regarded by their peers as being wanton women.

Carolyn--True, but I wonder if anyone noticed how many children Victoria herself had (nine) or her extraordinary grief upon the death of Albert. I have always assumed that there was a strong sexual attraction between them.

Of course one must not think of the QUEEN in such a light!

Deems did you see the movie Mrs.Brown. It was about Queen Victoria and her protector Mr. Brown a Scots guardsman in her service. Most of it took place after Prince Albert died. It was a wonderful comment on Victorian times.

I found a few interesting things I will be very glad to follow up on in further reading. For instance Will L. is an artist and that brought out that Mr. Brook too loved art and drawing etc. And how he had spent much time "practicing and collecting". I also found a good sense of humor in him. Certainly not the sarcastic kind of "wit" that young men like Fred V. are given too. The Dr. may become more interesting. He seems to be quite taken with Fred's sister Rosemond. And the plot thickens.:)faith

Faith--I did see Mrs. Brown and very much enjoyed it. Whoever wrote that screenplay seems to think that Victoria had some, er, unacceptable for women feelings. Heh.

My first impression of young Mr. Ladislaw was negative, but that was quickly corrected. When he is first introduced he is wearing "a pouting air of discontent". One does not like people who pout! But as Casaubon, Dorothea and Brooke depart his "sense of the ridiculous lit up his features very agreeably; it was the pure enjoyment of comicality, and had no mixture of sneering and self-exaltation." Now, that I like much better. IMO, Ladislaw has just been marked as a major character in this story.

And here is a telling remark from Eliot: "..he had assembled his voluminous notes, and had made that sort of reputation which precedes performance, --often the larger part of a man's fame." Ouch! Do you get the feeling that Eliot had others than Casaubon in mind when she wrote that?

Babi

I think Fred is much maligned in the posts so far. I think he has a kind heart as illustrated by the fact that he sneaks books to his cousin against his Uncles wishes.

Carolyn

"..he had assembled his voluminous notes, and had made that sort of reputation which precedes performance, --often the larger part of a man's fame." Ouch! Do you get the feeling that Eliot had others than Casaubon in mind when she wrote that?

Oh, yes!! And anyone who has anything to do with scholars can think of some examples.

CAROLYN: I agree. I think Fred, like all of Eliot’s characters is a mixture of good and bad. He is a very painful character for me to deal with. I hope you have never had a spendthrift or gambler in your family (Fred seems to be both). I have had several, and Fred’s character is too real to be comfortable. They often have very good hearts, and, when they have money, share it generously with others. But anyone close to them soon finds their own dreams and ambitions stifled as all their money goes to bail the spendthrift out of endless scrapes.

For a real-life example, see a biography of James Joyce.

What about Lydgate? What kind of impression does he make on you?

We’ve seen a lot of what Dorothea wants to do with her life, and how she tries to do it. What of our new women characters? What does Rosemary want for her life? How does she try to obtain it? Do you think she will succeed? What about Mary? Do we learn what she wants in her life? If not, why not?

"Casaubon feels the lack of passion, and wonders briefly if some lack in Dorothea could be the reason." Poor guy. His ego is indeed hurting here, Jo. I was heartened to hear SOMEBODY point out some of his positive qualities. Jo mentions "his sense of responsibility to his relatives." He does continue to subsidize his cousin's excesses - drink, opium etc. Dorothea thinks he's a "genius" for doing this. Does Eliot expect us to agree with her? Is Casaubon doing something brilliant, or do you suspect another reason for his "generosity?"

I'm puzzled about Fred's idleness - and what led to it. Isn't his father a prominent manufacturer? Isn't he the mayor, or is he running for mayor? Fred is the eldest son - what reason is given for his not following his father into the family business? And WHY did HE AGREE to be educated for the clergy when he had no inclination to enter when the schooling was over? Now he stays home, sleeps late and seems to do nothing but tease his sister. What's with Fred? What is there to like about him?

And Will Ladislaw, you see him coming back from Europe and playing a future role in the story? Babi? Both you and Fae appreciate his boyish sense of humor. Perhaps Dorothea does too - though she'd never admit it. He's the grandson of Casaubon's Aunt Julia - who had an unfortunate marriage and was never heard from again. I guess that explains why Will has no rosy prospects. Like Fred, he seems to have no problem taking and squandering what is given to him - Dorothea suggests he is idle and weak because he's growing. Does that explain Fred's idleness too?

Anne - you see Will as "the male counter-part of Dorothea." He is young, rash, has strong opinions, with a great deal of pride. Are opposites attracting at their first meeting? I don't know. I do see Dorothea defending him though.

Quite a contrast between these two and Doctor Lydgate, who seems to be a rather disciplined man with a plan (which does not include marriage until he is well established.) Don't you love the way Eliot pulls these characters onto the stage so seamlessly? They just seem to appear at the right moment. You know she spent a lot of time making this look so effortless!

Great link (great pictures within) - Thanks, bbc - will put it and the one Scootz posted earlier on this period in the next heading for future reference. Thank you both!

"what reason is given for his not following his father into the family business? And why did HE agree to be educated for the clergy when he had no inclination to enter when the schooling was over?"

Vincy has just been elected mayor. He doesn't want Fred to follow in his footsteps. He is educating his children to be a gentleman and a lady. He sends Miss Vincy to "Miss Lemon's Finishing School" and Fred to the university to follow a "gentleman's profession". (I get the impression that the clergy is where young gentlemen with no particular talent get put so they can live like gentlemen and not have to work). He wants them to take the next step up the social ladder.

So far, it's not working. Fred has only learned to spend too much money And notice at the Brooke party, Mr. Vincy is invited but "Miss Vincy ....was of course not present; for Mr. Brooke, always objecting to go too far, would not have chosen that his nieces should meet the daughter of a Middlemarch manufacturer, unless it were on a public occasion" (pp. 89-90 Penguin)

In fact, while the company at the party is "rather more miscellaneous as to the male portion" (p. 88) The women "included none whom Lady Chattem or Mrs. Cadwallandar could object to". The men of different social classes did some limited mixing, but not the women.

...I see Lydgate as the male counterpart to Dorothea - both driven by ideas and beyond their typical roles in life completed with the weaknesses of their types that may undermine them in the end - surely are lots of hints.

If Miss Vincy makes the social jump, it will be when she marries. The finishing school has given her the manners to be acceptable to a gentlemen, and that plus her money are supposed to lead to marriage above her class. She would then have to be accepted by women who wouldn’t see her socially now.

It’s amusing to watch the attempts at class-jumping depicted by Eliot’s wicked pen. Miss Vincy is firm in squelching anything she considers vulgar, while at the same time she is somewhat uncertain of what the rules are. She imagines her future husband’s "...high-bred relatives...whose finished manners she could appropriate as thoroughly as she had done her school accomplishments...." "There was nothing financial, still less sordid, in her previsions: she cared about what were considered refinements, and not about the money that was to pay for them," p 112, Modern Library

What problems did the three young men, Will Ladislaw, Fred Vincy and Tertius Lydgate have in common concerning their future? How did they handle their respective situations? What did these young men think of someone like Dorothea Brooke?

All three need to make their way in the world financially. Will couldn’t pursue his investigative approach to finding some sort of career if it weren’t for Casaubon. Fred has done almost nothing to lay a foundation for his future, other than hoping that Featherstone will be kind to him in his will. Tertius Lydgate has made progress by studying to become a physician and accumulating enough money to join a practice in Middlemarch, but he doesn’t believe he is financially secure enough to propose matrimony. He sees himself struggling for a while to become solvent and secure in his position. He has worked to progress as far as he has come, but the other two have no specific goals and are much lazier.

I suppose Fred is a ne’er do well, but unfortunately I like him. His rejoinders to his mother and especially to his sister Roseamund are witty and entertaining. He doesn’t seem at all mean spirited or nasty to me. His profession is having a good time; to that end, hunting and appearing at every jolly gathering are his chief occupations. I don’t imagine he ever wanted to be a clergyman. I think he was pushed into school to study for that vocation because it was a respectable occupation for someone in his social position and because he showed no talent or interest in any other. That’s the weakness in a culture that has so few options for a young man or woman, for that matter, of genteel birth. I like him for liking Mary Garth and bringing her books, and for being compassionate to old Featherstone, helping him to walk around the room, even after the old man gets after him for remarks he thinks he may have made about using that inheritance to pay off his gambling debts. Lack of sensible goals can contribute to idleness and weakness in any era.

I don’t recall any particular remark of Fred’s about Dorothea, but that doesn’t mean he didn’t make any. Will thinks it odd that she wants to marry his dusty old cousin. Tertius wants a wife who is beautiful and who will add grace and cheer to his life when he rests from the labors of his profession; he feels a strong attraction to Rosamund. He doesn’t want to come home to somebody like Dorothea, a woman with serious notions, he thinks. I found Eliot’s “intrusions” at the end of chapter 10 and at the beginning of 11 interesting. Lydgate thinks, at the end of the party, that “She is a good creature …… but a little too earnest. It is troublesome to talk to such women. They are always wanting reasons, yet they are too ignorant to understand the merits of any question, and usually fall back on their moral sense to settle things after their own taste.” Eliot says, “Evidently Miss Brooke was not Mr. Lydgate’s style of woman …. But Lydgate was less ripe (than Chichely) and might possibly have experience before him which would modify his opinion as to the most excellent things in woman.” And In 11, “Certainly nothing at present could seem much less important to Lydgate than the turn of Miss Brooke’s mind, or to Miss Brooke than the qualities of the woman who had attracted this young surgeon. But anyone watching keenly the stealthy convergence of human lots, sees a slow preparation of effects from one life on another, which tells like a calculated irony on the indifference or the frozen stare with which we look at our unintroduced neighbor. Destiny stands by sarcastic with our dramatis personae folded in her hand.”
What’s E. suggesting in these asides? Something brewing later between L. and D.???

"...I see Lydgate as the male counterpart to Dorothea - both driven by ideas and beyond their typical roles in life completed with the weaknesses of their types that may undermine them in the end - surely are lots of hints. "
bbcesana,do you mean their tendency to decide too quickly that they have found the right mate?

"she cared about what were considered refinements, and not about the money that was to pay for them." Pat H, funny that Rosamund and Fred seem so different in many ways, but he thinks (or Eliot interprets his thinking), less than a page later, that "certainly life was a poor business, when a spirited young fellow, with a good appetite for the best of everything, had so poor an outlook." They share the desire for the magic of money!

Among all the new character that we are meeting in these pages, it's Will Ladislaw, the young painter and Casaubon's cousin, and who will, therefore, be in Dorothea's proximity in the future, who reminded me of a curious coincidence related in an Eliot bio I'm reading on the side. What I have read leaves me very curious about where she intends to take him in her story. GE's contemporaries did look for her characters among her family and acquaintances. This could hardly spoil things for anyone. The following is taken from Gordon Haight's biography of Eliot, pages 56-7.

'In 1845 a young painter had proposed to her. His name has never been discovered, and all we know of the affair comes from the copy of a letter that Cara Bray wrote to Sara (Hennell) 30 March:

"I must give you some account of a matter which has been much in our thoughts this last week relating to Mary Ann (Evans, GE): she wished me to tell you and has often said 'How I wish Sara were here, for she knows what would be for my good!' I may as well say at the beginning though that it has all come to nothing. She says she was talking to you about a young artist she was going to meet at Baginton. Well, they did meet and passed two days in each other's company, and she thought him the most interesting young man she had seen and superior to all the rest of mankind; the third morning he made proposals through her brother in law Mr Hooton (Houghton) - saying, 'she was the most fascinating creature he had ever beheld, that if it were not too presumptuous to hope etc. etc. a person of such superior excellence and powers of mind,' etc. in short, he seemed desperately smitten and begged permission to write to her. She granted this, and came to us so brimful of happiness; - though she said she had not fallen in love with him yet, but admired his character so much that she was sure she should: the only objections seemed to be his profession - a picture restorer - is not lucrative or over-honourable. We liked his letters to her very much - simple, earnest, unstudied. She refused anything like an engagement on so short an acquaintance, but would have much pleasure to see him as a friend etc.

"So he came to see her last Wednesday evening, and owing to his great agitation, from youth - or something or other, did not seem half so interesting as before, and the next day she made up her mind that she could never love or respect him enough to marry him and that it would involve too great a sacrifice of her mind and pursuits. So she wrote to him to break it off - and there it stands now. Poor girl, it has been a trying, exciting week to her and she seemed quite spiritless this morning: and we cannot help feeling that she has been over-hasty in giving it up. And yet - and yet - one does not know what to advise."

'Commenting on it a week later in a letter to Sara, Mary Ann said:

"I have never yet half thanked you for taking an interest in my little personal matters. My unfortunate 'affaire' did not become one 'du coeur,' but it has been anything but a comfortable one for my conscience. If the circumstances could be repeated with the added condition of my esperience I should act very differently. As it is I have now dismissed it from my mind, and only keep it recorded in my book of reference, article 'Precipitancy, ill effects of.' So now dear Sara, I am once more your true Gemahlinn, which being interpreted, means that I have no loves but those that you can share with me - intellectual and religious loves."

'And a little later wrote to Patty Jackson:

"What should you say to my becoming a wife? Should you think it a duty to ascertain the name of the rash man that you might warn him from putting on such a matrimonial hair-shirt as he would have with me? I did meditate an engagement, but I have determined, wheter wisely or not I cannot tell, to defer it, at least for the present."

'Despite this brave front, Mary Ann was troubled about her rejection of the painter. Mrs Bray told Sara that:

"although it is given up irrevocably, she is so extremely wretched about it, and we know, wants it to come on again - not that she cares much for him, but she is so grieved to have wounded his feelings, and he has behaved so well and unselfishly that he deserves pity, if not more. But we can do nothing in the matter - indeed she entreats us not to meddle and the Hootons are the only partied who could - they being the friends of both. She says it shall not interfere with the M.S., but poor girl, everything seems against the grain with her. " '

End of quote. Twenty-five years later, working on her Middlemarch novel, the young painter reappears to discover his fate.

Oh my, a busy night in here! The young Middlemarchers represent the future of the town. They all seem so unsettled don't they? I suppose that is so in every generation, but this one perhaps more so? From those we have met, what do you see in your crystal ball for Middlemarch in the coming years?

FRED ~ "I think he has a kind heart as illustrated by the fact that he sneaks books to his cousin against his Uncle's wishes Carolyn, you're right. There is another side of Fred. We first see him through the eyes of his father and sister, but he seems to be a different person in the presence of Mary Garth...his "cousin." How are they related, I've forgotten...Featherstone is central to both Mary and Fred - and to both of their futures.

"His rejoinders to his mother and especially to his sister Roseamund are witty and entertaining" - oh yes, and Jo, he loves his mother. I forgot to count that in his plus column. No small thing. Poor Fred - I don't see anything in his future...unless of course, Featherstone does leave him a fortune.

MARY GARTH. "...pretending to be amiable and contented...but has a bad opinion of everybody." Now she's one we could spend a whole day talking about! I seem some similarities here between Mary, Rosamund AND Dorothea...not to such an extreme. Before meeting Mary, I thought we were seeing Eliot expressed in Dorothea's character, but now, I'm wondering if we aren't going to find the author in more than one character?

LYYGATE - bbc sees HIM as the male counterpart to Dorothea - "both driven by ideas and beyond their typical roles in life completed with the weaknesses of their types that may undermine them in the end."

ROSAMOND - Lydgate seems more determined to stick to his ideals and profession, but will she be his weakness? "Miss Vincy is firm in squelching anything she considers vulgar, while at the same time she is somewhat uncertain of what the rules are." ~ She might be uncertain, but her timing is great, Pat...she knows how to put herself down when she is at her best...she seems to know instinctively the effect she has on people - she doesn't seem real to me yet. We see her through Lydgate's eyes - a goddess. "Rosamond" - I remember so many maidens with this name in the "old" stories, don't you? Always the heroine of the novel. You don't hear the name anymore at all.

Jo picked up on this - "Destiny stands by sarcastic with our dramatis personae folded in her hand.” Eliot sure does seem to be suggesting more in the future either BETWEEN or ABOUT these two - Lydgate and Dorothea, Jo. More so than I see suggested between Will and Dorothea... did I miss something? Oops, Flora, just now see your post. You remind that Will, being Casaubon's cousin he will "therefore, be in Dorothea's proximity in the future." Of course, he'll be home after a year and the two will meet again. What's your guess? Will Dorothea have been right after all. Will Will "grow" while he's away?

Oh my, Flora - thank you for taking the time to share these letters! Will life become art? Will Will "reappear to discover his fate?" Stay tuned! This gets better by the moment!

fascinating! Thanks ever so much for taking all the time to share that with us. Is the bio good? Recently, I read John O'Hara's bio while reading APPOINTMENT IN SAMARRA- it definitely lent a whole new dimension to the reading than I would have otherwise had. Do you recommend this bio?

And btw- I hope you will keep us informed as we go to other tidbits.

Scootz, who is thinking about that bio...hmmm, can I squeeze in another book?

Someone asked what people underline. With me, a lot of times it’s wicked little jokes.

"(Casaubon) has got no good red blood in his body....No. Somebody put a drop under a magnifying-glass, and it was all semicolons and parentheses...." p 66 ML

"...the Brooke connections...were unquestionably ‘good’: if you inquired backward for a generation or two, you would not find...anything lower than an admiral or a clergyman..." p 3

"Sir James...did not usually find it easy to give his reasons: it seemed to him strange that people should not know them without being told, since he only felt what was reasonable." p64

I'm doing a lot of clicking this a.m. -- back and forth among posts! Daytripper, great bio stuff. I am suddenly more eager to forge ahead, but I know that if I read too far in advance I'll either have to read chapters all over again or drop out of the discussion, because my memory isn't that good. I underline like mad, which helps, but I still have to go over what I've read too soon.
PatH, I laughed at Mrs. Cadwallader's "semicolons and parentheses" bit, too. I hope we see more of her!

Reading like mad to catch up...thank heavens I had already started this weeks segment.

Was tied up with 2 language courses. Have cut back to just Latin 101 so will be able to participate in my reading groups again! Yeahhh!!!

Alliemae

Isn't that about it. We're all talking about underlining. I just love Pat's selections. I picked up two of them on a first read, but missed the humor in the oversight or blindness in Sir James's aristocratic self-assurance. That's my style. I only underline a small part of what I'm reading in THIS novel. Then more with the help of the perceptive reading of all of you here. And then even more with every rereading. How could I have missed that! And of course I'm always keeping in mind Fae's comment in an early post to look for Eliot's hidden, underlying meanings. It gets easier, as one learns what to expect and what to look for.

All of which makes it a stimulating read. After all, it is a recognized Great Book. Then why is it also, as Jo says, a challenge requiring an effort to keep forgeing ahead? I hope I have your meaning right, Jo.

George Eliot's own assessment was that the beginning of her book is a bit of a drag. Henry James's otherwise adulatory critique said that MM was a vast amount of wonderful detail that didn't add up to much - or something like that. Of course he was wrong. If he had only slowed down in his reading, or read it again, he might have seen how it all hangs together. And, of course, once we get into the whitewater of Eliot's narrative stream we'll all have to hold on to our incredulous hats. I know it's a lame metaphor, but you will all understand later.

I'm happy you all found the bit from Eliot's past interesting. She lived an interesting life. And must have been very interesting to be with, and, considering her shyness, especially so if one could get her one-on-one. She had a huge circle of acquaintances. The Haight bio is very good, Scootz. No doubt there are others. You're right. Knowing Eliot increases or enhances ones enjoyment of her writing.

Casaubon is not as bad as he seems to be, and deserves some sympathy for his shortcomings. He is a very lonely man, whose hopes of feeling happier and less lonely upon marring are dashed; his high expectations of finally giving up bachelorhood prove fase, and Casaubon does struggle to try and draw more emotion out of himself.

Dorothea believes that she will gain the knowledge and the purpose she needs from Casaubon because he is a man of learning, and if he cannot give her this, no one can. Metaphorically, she wants the lamp of knowlege, but thinks she needs to seek the lamp's oil elsewhere.

The townspeople, as seen at the dinner party, are a mixed bag. They have an overly harsh opinion of Casaubon but on the other hand, are perfectly correct in their appraisal of the marriage's prospects. They are unfriendly to the coming of progress and their tendency to be wary of outsiders is also unfair. The people of Middlemarch have both positive and negative qualities; they are only human after all. But as Eliot points out we should not be to quick to condemn them for things they cannot control.

When I said that Dorothea and Lydgate seems like the major figures, I was not referring to any particular action or decision they made, but both seem to share the tendency to proceed off the strength of their ideas/theories (both of which have a progressive aspect), with the weakness of both that they overlook the context of implementing their ideas (i.e. the real world)- Dorothea does not seem to 'get' the point of marriage to Casaubon as a man, seeing him just as a man of ideas and ...Lydgate (I have read ahead and am hesitate to continue...) you see the point, I am sure.

The example is that Dorothea is happy designing the houses for people on the estate - very happy in Eliot's words - but instead of the obvious match with Sir James and his agreement to this, pursues Casaubon.

Such interesting comments by everyone!

Scootz, here is the best I can do with the Italian proverb (pleasure and melons want the same weather) which opens Chapter VII: The chapter is about Dorothea wanting to pursue her intellectual interests. She wants pleasure in her life with Casaubon. Dorothea is like a melon. Melons like pampering and hot weather. She needs pampering, attention, TLC, nurturing, etc., from Casaubon for her relationship with Casaubon to flourish. Based on what we see in this chapter, Casaubon is not willing to nurture her mind, so their relationship “will not grow well.” Their relationship won’t be “hot.”

For those of you with an interest in sexuality in Victorian England, I recommend an historical fiction book by Michel Faber called The Crimson Petal and the White.

Adding to Pat H’s. look at humor, I have the following:

“Sane people did what their neighbors did, so that if any lunatics were at large, one might know and avoid them.” (pg. 5 B&N)

“Confound you handsome young fellows! … You don’t understand women. They don’t admire you half so much as you admire yourselves.” (pg. 62 B&N)

“Brooke is a very good fellow, but pulpy; he will run into any mould, but he won’t keep his shape.” (pg. 64 B&N)

In Chapter XI, page 89 of the B&N edition, there is this quote, “(Mrs. Vincy not liking the lowering system adopted by him)” The him referred to is Lydgate. What is a lowering system? Is he treated patients of a lower class?

A "lowering system" would be a course of treatment or medication designed to lower fevers or calm humors, as opposed to one that would stimulate things. In Wilkie Collins’ "The Moonstone" there is a lengthy scene involving the dispute among physicians over which treatment would be better for one of the characters, who is delerious. Most of the remedies didn’t work anyway.

And I believe 'cupping', ie., drawing off a certain quantity of blood, was one of the 'lowering' procedures. Believed, as Pat said, to "calm humours'. It speaks well for Mrs. Vincy's common sense that she did not approve.

Mrs. Vincy is a very likeable personality. Cheerful, calm, not easily rattled or upset. Of course, she takes the best possible view of her children, and has undoubtedly indulged Fred to the point of allowing him to be inconsiderate of others. But Fred, I believe, is much like his Mother, and just as likeable. Rosamund I don't like as well, as I suspect her of having a shallow mind and a really poor sense of values, no doubt the fault of her Father's wishes to raise her to the status of a 'lady'.

Lydgate, with his views of what a woman should be, and considering a fine appearance to be the most desirable quality in a wife, is IMO the reason for Eliot's quote from Ben Jonson about 'human follies'. He and Rosamund probably deserve one another, but I pity them both if that comes about.

Babi

DAYTRIPPER: that biographical information is fascinating. Thank you so much. We will have to keep a very close eye on Will have to see if Eliot treats him better in her novel.

I too wonder what she has planned for Dorothea and Lydgate. It doesn’t help to know that originally, Eliot was writing two books; one with Dorothea as the main character, the other about Lydgate, and then decided to combine them.

And then there’s Mary. We know from our short biographies that Eliot was considered spectacularly ugly. What do you think of the way she portrays the ugly woman, Mary?

Question asked "Will Will grow while hes away?" He is young, an artist..What kind of a character would he be if he didn't. Possibly(this is a guess)Eliot is setting him up as a counterpoint to his Uncle . At leaast he doesn't seem dead to passion as C. seems to me.

Browsing through the back of the BN edition I found Comments about her book. I will copy part of the "The Times of Londons "review of March 1873.

Under George Eliots pen a few square miles of fields and villages become the world. The game we watch may be played upon the checkers of a small board, but we are concious all the while that its problems are profoundly identical with the issues and mysteries of human life. The nominal stakes are the fortunes of a few country people , but the pieces stand proxy for the destinies of humanity.

On the other hand Anthony Trollope writes a negative view of Eliot and her work. Next time I will copy part of Henry James statements(FOR) and W.B. Yeats (AGAINST)..

Judy

G'day from Western Australia! I know, 'I'm late, I'm Late' - I've just found you and because you're reading MM and from the discussion you're all having such a good time I can't resist joining you. I've read all of Eliot's novels and some of the essay etc at some time or another but it's years since I opened any of them so am dusting off a dilapidated copy of MM and hoping to catch up.

On the Moravians - they were a religious sect who had been persecuted and hounded out of Europe - Germany ? - some ended up in England where they suffered much the same fate, at least to a degree. When the philanthropist, Gen. James Oglethorpe set sail for the 'New World' where he founded Georgia he took a number of disadvantaged groups with him including some who were Moravians. He also took John Wesley who was learning his trade as a non-conformist preacher. I know about this because my great grandmother was an Oglethorpe (these are my 'gentry' connections). Which leads me on to the 'Catholic Question' - The Oglethorpes were a Catholic family and suffered persecution when they would not recant their faith - James' father, Sir Theophilus Oglethorpe and his wife, the Lady Eleanor went so far as to go into exile with King James' court in St. Germains. Other branches of the family remained recusants and were hunted down, fined, imprisoned and had their lands sequestered. Many were lucky to escape with their heads. The dispossessed branches made ends meet by taking to the professions (legal) and trade (horrors!). This family's experience was typical of many catholics who refused to recant.

The 'Catholic question' Eliot is referring to was the 'Catholic Emancipation Bill' of 1829 which gave Catholics the right to vote and to hold public office. Charlotte Bronte records her family's reaction to the Bill in this little extract - "the Great Catholic question was brought forward...and all was slander violence party spirit and confusion. O those 3 months from the time of the king's speech to the end! Nobody could think speak or write on anything but the catholic question and the Duke of Wellington and Mr. Peel. I remember the day when the Intelligencer Extraordinary came with Mr. Peel's speech in it containing the terms on which the catholics were to be let in...and how aunt said she thought it was excellent and that the catholics (could) do no harm with such good security...and when the paper came which was to decide the question the anxiety was most dreadful with which we listened to the whole affair - the opening of the doors and the hush the Royal Dukes in there (sic) robes and the Great Duke in green sash and waistcoat...papa saying that his words were like precious gold..." (Tales of the Islanders in Charlotte Bronte Juvenilia 1829-1835, Penguin 1996 p17) - Charlotte's punctuation isn't so good but then she was only about 13 at the time.

Welcome, Gumtree, and thank you for the history of the Moravians as well as the Oglethorpe family. There were certainly Catholics in England at the time, but for the most part they kept their faith quiet. I assume that most periodically attended the C of E.

There were so many "separist" groups at the time that it is difficult to keep them all straight. I thought there was a connection between the Moravian brotherhood and John Wesley but didn't take the time to check it out.

At any rate, we are pleased to have you with us, so find that old copy of Middlemarch. We are going so slowly you will have no trouble keeping up.

Maryal

Oh, GOOD! Maryal is up early to greet you, "Gumtree"! Wait till the others get here! Carolyn (kiwi) will be just delighted - another Aussie - of the gentry too!. You can match your geneology! Thank you so much for the first-hand (well almost) information on the Catholic Question and the religious intolerance at the time. Certainly we will be hearing more about these issues in the coming discussion. Your careful explanation helps immensely.

When folks voted for such a long read, we decided that the only way to go was at a very slow place - we knew it would take a while and we wanted folks to be free take part in other book discussions, learn a language...work, clean house, garden. As Maryal says, you should have no trouble catching up. We are only coming to the end of Book I and Monday morning will start discussing Book II. Your only problem will be keeping a zipped lip as to what is going to happen in later pages - I noted that you have read Eliot before. If you are anything like me, you won't remember detail and I'm certain you will enjoy reading the chapters again and untangling the metaphors along with us.

Such a nice surprise to find you in our company this morning. Welcome!

Thank you to Pat H. and Babi for the explanation of a lowering system. I was very far off! LOL!

I am leaving on a trip, so I will see you all for the discussion of the second half of Part II. Yes, I am taking the book with me. LOL! Until then…

Good for you, Laura - Heavy book to tow! We look forward to more of your underlining. Please continue to post the eyecatching quotes as we go along. This is what makes this discussion sing - when you pull out examples of Eliot's wicked humor and sharp observations of human weakness - and strengths- thanks for sharing your underlines, everyone.

Pat, your quote on Sir James...reminds me of one of the reasons I didn't like him. It reminded me too of the description his antithesis - the Rector Cadwallader and why I liked him - "He always saw the joke of any satire against himself. His conscience was large and easy, like the rest of him: it did only what it could do without any trouble."

I've got a question after reading and thinking about the quote Judy posted -

"Under George Eliot's pen a few square miles of fields and villages become the world. The game we watch may be played upon the checkers of a small board, but we are concious all the while that its problems are profoundly identical with the issues and mysteries of human life. , but the pieces stand proxy for the destinies of humanity."

Can we talk about "the fortunes of a few country people?" Are we to understand that the "few country people" are the gentry, the aristocrats? They live outside of the town of Middlemarch on their estates. None live in Middlemarch. They rather look down on the Middlemarchers as inferior?

Anne notes that the townspeople at the dinner party are a "mixed bag." It seems that the country and the townies don't usually mix - Mr. Brooke is displaying his independent tendencies by inviting the townsmen to dinner. Is it clear why he really did that? I had suspected when I read it that he did it for political reasons. If he is to "stand for Middlemarch" - then he'll need the town backing. Did you understand that - or are the town and country people beginning to intermingle anyway. I had underlined this passage:

"In fact Mrs Cadwallader said that Brooke was beginning to treat the Middlemarchers, and that she preferred the farmers at the tithe-dinner, who drank her health unpretentiously, and were not ashamed of their grandfathers' furniture. For in that part of the country, before Reform had done its notable part in developing the political consciousness, there was a clearer distinction of ranks and a dimmer distinction of parties; so that Mr Brooke's miscellaneous invitations seemed to belong to that general laxity which came from his inordinate travel and habit of taking too much in the form of ideas."

Laura, yesterday - "“Brooke is a very good fellow, but pulpy; he will run into any mould, but he won’t keep his shape.” Because of this, he seems to be the link between the townpeople and the country gentry. It is at his invitation that we meet Lyngate and the other prominent town leaders. Shall we sort them out today?

JoanK pointed out yesterday that Middlemarch was intended to be two books one with Dorothea as the main character, the other about Lydgate, and then decided to combine them. They first come together at this dinner party.

BBC - I couldn't help but think when Lydgate was introduced, that Dorothea would have had opportunity to meet new men. At nineteen there was no need to rush into marriage with Casaubon - She could have been his secretary and received free Latin/Greek lessons in return. (Alliemae, I'm glad you scaled back to just the Latin - it's good have you back with us!)

Not that Dorothea would have been Lydgate's choice...as Babi cites - "Lydgate, with his views of what a woman should be, and considering a fine appearance to be the most desirable quality in a wife, is IMO the reason for Eliot's quote from Ben Jonson about 'human follies'." What brings this newcomer to town? He doesn't seem at all uncomfortable to me, but doesn't really fit in either...

Guys I am not an Aussie! NZ is a country in its own right although alongside Australia on the map. I think a lot of people get mixed up with Kiwis and Aussies.

Sorry, Carolyn. My mistake. Geography, math, not my strong points. Close though? Close, but no cigar... am still thrilled that your "neighbor" has joined us!

Thanks, bbcesana, for extending your explanation of Lydgate and Dorothea. I didn't get it right away when you first alluded to their common weakness, possibly because their weakness is my own: I have trouble envisioning how a "great idea" will work in the real world.
Is Brooke a lightweight, one who "will run into any mold, but won't keep his shape"? It will be interesting to see how Eliot follows his actvities as a link between one group and another. He wishes to stand as a liberal, and that may well be his reason for having this group to dinner, but I wonder if he may be emblematic of his time? The nineteenth century saw many changes that influenced society and people had to encounter one another and work together on many levels.

WELCOME GUMTREE: the quote from the young Bronte is wonderful!! Now I finally understand why everyone is talking about the “Catholic Question”. It was the hot news of the day. I hope we’ll get to see how it plays out for our little circle. It’s hard for us now to realize how ingrained religious discrimination still was in England then (even though some of our forebears came to America to escape it).

Do explore Seniornet. There are many other exciting discussions as well as this one. And there are many other participants from Australia.

JoanP quotes of Rev. Cadwalleder: "He always saw the joke of any satire against himself”

Thank goodness!! Have any of you noticed how little sense of humor any of these characters have. In the scene where Will Ladislaw laughs, I think it’s the only time in the book so far that anyone has laughed. If it wasn’t for Eliot’s wonderful sense of humor describing them, these people would be impossibly self important!

JoanK maybe the fact that Will laughed was what made me instantly like him despite his having no discernible ambition other than to go look at the world and see what he wanted to do with his life.

Mr. Brooke I agree is playing politician at his dinner party inviting men from town along with his contemporaries from the country estates. I am anxious to see if he will be sent up to Parliament,if this is the direction the novel is taking us.

I read that this was novel was written combining two separate story ideas one of Dorthea as main protagonist and one as T. Ladislaw the doctor as the main protagonist and for this Serialized novel she combined the two stories. There were some critics who said the novel was scattered an had an unwieldy plot. I don't know yet if I agree with that. She is said to have completed the novel before the serialized version was published so that should not have effected the novel. Faith

Just a short note before I start. My husband's last name was Ogle. He said that he thought his family was related to Oglethorope who founded Georgia, but he wasn't sure. (His family came from North Dakota and settled in New Mexico.) He also told me that his family had something to do with King James, but was never sure exactly what. Since he was never interested in history, he never pursued it. I'm very grateful to you , gumtree, to filling in the blanks. I appreciate it very much.

Now on to Lydgate and Rosamond:

Lydgate embodies many of the misconceptions that men have about women, and believes that he qualities that would be considered shortcomings in men are well-suited for women. He wants a woman who is pleasant, shallow, pretty, and vain.

Rosamond Vincy is exactly this. She represents the "ideal" Victorian woman. Eliot uses her to criticize this ideal. Rosamond is also a social-climbing snob as well; she cannot bear to think that her mother was the daughter of a simple innkeeper, or that her father's family is merely middle-class. She has no idea of the value of money.

Lygate, too, is a snob; he too would like to deny his origins, and pretend that he is better or higher class than he actually is.

I have snobs in my family as well. My Irish grandmother always told "embelished" stories about her family. It took me years before I found out that when my great-grandmother first came to this country she used to wash clothes for the stevedores on the docks in San Francisco. It is where she met and married my great-grandfather. For some reason my middle class upbringing made me feel closer to these people without the emblishment. It also explains why the few times I saw her she always smelled of "homemade" soap.

lowering

It's very interesting to learn the meaning of this medical term. And with that the table is being set, no doubt, for a look at the need for reform in health care in the Middlemarch setting. What could be more hilarious than to listen in on a discussion of health problems and nostrums at the pre-nuptial dinner-party put on by Mr Brooke for Dorothea and her betrothed. She's marrying the man whose dry-as-dust pamphlets might just serve as a remedy for Mrs Renfrew's Dropsy, according to Mrs Cadwallader. She is a rarity. Even among old wives. She'll stop at nothing to take another jab at Casaubon. Learned writings a medication of a 'drying nature.' Indeed! Drying, lowering, strengthening. Prescribing Mr Casaubon's pamphlets for Mrs Renfrew's ailment, the diagnosis and prognosis reached on the strength of observatins in the potato patch!

Meanwhile, it's almost as if the author has suddenly realized that 'poor Mr Casaubon' is being seriously misjudged by the community, and possibly by the reader as well. The re-imaging begins. In her efforts she seems to suggest that the reader is also partly to blame, in wanting sophistication to understand the real Mr Casaubon:

'the chief reason that WE think he asks too large a place in our consideration must be OUR want of room for him.'

Ah, yes. As she says somewhere else, a dozen pages earlier: 'It is a narrow mind which cannot look at a subject from various points of view.'

What a delightful writer. Omniscient, intrusive, and totally reliable if her good intentions can be believed. I remember my mother saying many years ago; Mary Ann wasn't always truthful. To this day I don't know what she meant.

DAY TRIPPER says her mother told her "Mary Ann wasn't always truthful. To this day I don't know what she meant."

That's a very interesting idea!! We'd better keep a sharp eye on her.

I feel about Eliot that she is a lover of logic. She has a logical mind, and constantly makes fun of her Middlemarchers because they don't. But she also teases her readers. She leads us into logical errors, and then calls us on them. At one point she says that just because D. is making up her reasons for admiring Casaubon doesn't mean that he doesn't deserve that admiration. At another, she has the characters give all sorts of illogical reasons for disliking Casaubon and then, when we have all fallen into the trap, points out how illogical the reasoning has been.

I don't think she has changed her mind at all. She is playing with the lack of logic of most of us humans. I, for one, love it.

Joan, I do too - enjoy having "Mary Ann" play with my mind - illogical as it is. Flora, your post demonstrates the "omniscient and especially the intrusive presence of the author. Now we know - we do need to watch her. She is at it again in the next book (I peeked).

Did you notice that the ladies at this dinner party dwell on the ails and ills of the aging, while the men concern themselves with the bloom of youth - as personified in that ideal Victorian woman, Rosamond Vincy? Did you wonder where Uncle Brooke was during the discussions of his future son-in-law's shortcomings. And Mrs. Cadwallader? I loved your observation, Flora:

"...it's almost as if the author has suddenly realized that 'poor Mr Casaubon' is being seriously misjudged by the community, and possibly by the reader as well. The re-imaging begins. In her efforts she seems to suggest that the reader is also partly to blame, in wanting sophistication to understand the real Mr Casaubon."

Speaking defensively, the author constantly fed into the idea of the May-December quality of their relationship. (To her credit, Fae saw through this.) Maybe "May-December" is not quite accurate - she used the word "autumn" frequently enough to indicate that there was some life left in Casaubon...that he was not yet "dry-as-dust." Did you personally react to the constant references and the adjectives which described his pallor, brittle bones etc. - as if he was in the winter of his years? He's OUR age, for heaven sake! No, wait, he's YOUNGER than a good number of us! DIDN"T YOU RESENT THAT? Were we supposed to react to that and failed to do so? The author writes this novel - as a senior herself, but surely does not feel as decrepit as she is portraying Casaubon! May-Fall better describes their relationship, don't you think? (Pardon the pun.)

"many flowers, open windows, and little vistas of bright things, to make it seem a joyous home. In this latter end of autumn, with a sparse remnant of yellow leaves falling slowly athwart the dark evergreens in a stillness without sunshine, the house too had an air of autumnal decline, and Mr Casaubon, when he presented himself, had no bloom that could be thrown into relief by that background."

Surely the feminine touch of a youthful bride could have opened those windows to the sunshine - and raked up some of the yellowing leaves? The opportunity was offered - and declined.

ps. Gumtree, you and Anne might be related - by marriage! What a happy Oglethorpe reunion, right here in Middlemarch!

Thanks to all for the warm welcome.

Kiwi lady is quite right: Kiwi and Aussie are not the same - same part of the world, great friends always, even kissing cousins BUT different nationality.

You can be sure that I'll keep 'zipped up' about future events in MM. My big challenge will be to try to see MM with a fresh mind and to evaluate as I read without allowing past readings to colour my thinking. Have already begun and as always am stunned by Eliot - her style, sense of humour, irony, story telling, compassion,intellect,learning - she had the lot.

Re John Wesley: I'm not sure that there is any connection between him and the Moravians except for contact whilst travelling and in Georgia - I just threw him in as a bit of trivia - sorry.

FaithR talked about serialisation - original publication was not serialised in the usual sense of appearing in journals or magazines. It was published in book form in 8 parts corresponding to the 8 parts we have in the complete book. It was a scheme that G.H. Lewes proposed to Blackwoods not only because MM's length meant it wouldn't do as a 3 volume novel and in any case Eliot didn't like the serialisation style but also I think in some way Lewes & Blackwoods wanted to circumvent the lending libraries (especially Mudies) who had quite a grip on publishing at that time.

Scrawler - your comments on Ogle were appreciated. Gen O had no direct descendants. The family, together with other catholics had been vilified for their belief ever since Henry VIII broke with Rome and established the C.ofE. Many O families disappeared from the records during 16 & 17 centuries. My feeling is that some changed their name and one option would be to drop 'thorpe' or likewise drop 'Ogle', move away and start again. The O's were from Yorkshire.

Needless to say, I'm new to this online discussion lark and not quite sure of protocol - please set me straight if I offend.

Again, thanks for the warm welcome.

LOL!! JoanP, can you believe I never once thought of Casaubon as a 'senior' like us. In spite of his being younger than I am, I still think he is a dry, old stick. People like Casaubon seem to be middle-aged even in their youth, and old before their time. Solitary, disliking change, spending all their time in scholarly pursuits, apparently seldom doing anything active or out-of-doors.

A body gets older. The mind can do as it pleases, barring the misfortune of illness. The spirit should get better. wiser and freer with each year. In my opinion.

Babi

GUMTREE, I just saw your post. I immediately wondered if the legendary (here, at least) Jim Thorpe might be another Oglethorpe descendant. I think I'll see what I can learn about his background, just out of curiosity. I do know he came from a rather poor family, but that's about all.

Back to MM, I wish to state categorically that I do not like Mrs. Waule. I doubt very much if anything Eliot may attempt to do to make Waule appear more acceptable will change my mind in the least. Poisonous woman!

Babi

Rumor is a theme that is very much a part of Middlemarch. Rumors are circulated like golden coins, a person's reputation depends on what people say or think about them. Rumors are often vicious, and just as often untrue or at the very least half-truths. It is interesting that the more socialably acceptable the person is who is spreading the rumor; the more the rumor is accepted. I also can't help but wonder if there was some "rumor" about herself that disturbed Eliot in her own life.

There are times in this novel when I am quite at home and enjoying it very much and then I check out the postings and find that I don't even see much of what the rest of you are seeing.

Seriously, I don't think I know what we are supposed to look for. My previous book chats before my experience here on SeniorNet have been with whoever I met that had read the same book and it was always about what we liked and didn't like...and elaborating on this part or that part!!

It came fairly easy to me when I was reading Somerset Maugham's The Moon and Sixpence...there was so much to be explained and analyzed. But I get lost so often in reading this author.

Somewhere between the talk about the young women at the party by the men and the entrance of Casaubon and Lydgates and the conversation about the cottages, the author went off on a long paragraph that I had to reread several times and I'm still not sure I know what she was talking about. Is the writer just thinking 'out loud' to the reader????

Anyway...I like some of the book and we are not far into it yet so I'm of course very interested in continuing and seeing what all the outcomes will be. I do enjoy all the comparative comments about the two sisters. I guess because I had a sister and we were always being compared and being predicted about!! (mostly we sure fooled them all!!)

Alliemae

Don't feel like the lone ranger, AllieMae. I don't think it's so much that I don't *get* it, as that it's just not my kind of writing. And I don't even care or not if I get it, if that makes sense. It's enough for me to read it on my own and get what I can from it. But I'm enjoying the comments, and some are more obtuse than others. I have a feeling that I'll be happy to say I read MIDDLEMARCH, because I always wanted to, but as far as "enjoying" it as I did the Thomas Hardy I just finished, no.

As I go along, I find it easier to read than I had, but I'm not finding any characters to like, anything to get really wrapped up in. They all seem a bunch of snobs to me. It will be like ANNA KARENINA for me- I'm glad to say I finally read it, but I wouldn't go there again. Sorry....jmho.

Alliemae - "There are times in this novel when I am quite at home and enjoying it very much"

I understand what you are saying. - and then George Elliot goes off into one of her obtuse, lengthy "explanations" and I feel as if I'm underwater, holding my breath...looking forward to getting to the surface for air.

As long as you are finding some moments of enjoyment, it doesn't matter if you don't see what others see. I think we all see things differently - like Casaubon for example. Does it help when you read what others have seen - when you see things that you missed? Or does it frustrate you that you didn't see them?

Just to make it clear - there is NOTHING WRONG with saying what you LIKE and DO NOT like in these pages. You mention Maugham - Eliot isn't Maugham, I think we can all agree on that. His world is his own small circle of acquaintances. In this first book, Eliot has presented a WHOLE town...and every level of society. A whole town! Now that we have been introduced, perhaps we will get to know them in some depth. ...And maybe, to know them will be to care about them.

Perhaps you have uncovered the problem, Scootz. So far, there aren't many people that we have met - and liked and care about. There are some things about some of the people that we do like. But there is so much vanity here! I thought since Dorothea seemed to be the heroine of the piece, that we would care about her by now. Instead, like so many of our readers, I just want to shake her too. She doesn't seem real to me. At first I thought that this was because Eliot wrote over 100 years ago and this was her view of society, of the people at this time. It wasn't until the end of this week, that it is becoming clear that Eliot is not sympathetic to her either! In other words, Eliot doesn't like her characters any more than we do! - And Dorothea is supposed to be the young Eliot. I see Eliot stuggling to understand her, just as we are.

Mary Garth, so angry, so negative, so homely - she interests me more than any of the characters so far. Do you suppose Mary Garth is ALSO a young Eliot? What is she doing in Featherstone's house? - Besides "pretending to be amiable and contented -- learning to have a bad opinion of everybody."

Young Dr. Lydgate interests me too - but only because I don't understand him. Eliot does best with the folks she ISN'T explaining, I think. Do you see anything at all between Mary G. and the doctor? Doesn't she seem out of sorts when he appears to be smitten with the lovely, vacuous Rosamond?

Babi, Mrs. Waule is Featherstone's sister, right? She seems to think the family estate should go to her son when her childless brother passes away. That seems reasonable to me. But Fred Vincy, Rosamund's brother - (another nephew?), seems to be counting on inheriting Featherstone's money. (How is Fred related to Featherstone?) Mrs. Waule is doing her best to see that that doesn't happen by discrediting Fred whenever she can. Just a thought - Featherstone might die and leave the money to neither!

I would love to hear from others, as you settle into Middlemarch. Are you making yourself at home here yet - or ready to board the next train back to London?

ALLIEMAE: I don't understand everything Eliot says either -- if I don't get it and I'm not interested, I just skip over it. After all, we're just reading this for fun. We discussion leaders are supposed to dig stuff out of it -- that's why we're paid the big bucks (LOL) but there's no reason why anyone else should. And we all bring our own background -- I'm a sociologist so I glom onto the class differences; someone else might see political references, or poetic ones -- or be more aware of how sisters relate. Thats the fun of having such a diverse group.

or ready to board the next train back to London?

Oh no, I'm not ready to give up yet. I keep thinking that perhaps our slow pace (and I don't have a problem with it, please don't misunderstand) is making for such intense examination, and then re-examination. I have decided to just pick and choose how I participate and I am still reading 8-10 pages each morning. And the slow pace allows me to read other "stuff" on the side.

Dorothea has become not the central figure to me any longer, but just one of many characters, plotlines. It IS very intricate and I have to admire a mind that can do this, write about so many characters, facets of the society at once.

Right now I'm thinking I will have the ANNA KARENINA mindset when I'm done- glad to have read it, but not enjoyed it overly much. I'll be very interested to see if my mind changes as we move down the track.

I wanted to say to AllieMae also- sometimes, I dont even know what a post is saying, never mind the book. LOL But it doesn't bother me. I can read it on my own and take what I need and be satisfied with that.

I see that I seem to be right up to speed in one way or the other with each and every one of you then! That's a happy thought.

JoanK, I came in here this morning to explain that I wasn't trying to be 'pathetic' in my previous post, just that I see things more 'folklorish' and anthropologically...not used to asking 'why'...just seeing 'what' and recording it as ethically as I can.

But all of you have lightened my mood.

Scootz, one of the reasons Eliot frustrates me so much is that I do like this period that she is writing about...but I guess, not too much of the dark...or might I rather say 'petty' side. Such a town of 'yentes'!!!

Joan Pearson, yes! "...and then George Elliot goes off into one of her obtuse, lengthy "explanations" and I feel as if I'm underwater..." THAT is exactly what I meant about the paragraph I referred to! Very comforting this...

I am very interested in following Lydgate and in NO WAY am I ready to board the train back to London...what, and miss all this FUN!! Anyway, then I wouldn't know who ends up with whom (aha! and there's the 'yente' in me...). No, like Scootz, I'm staying right here on board!

Alliemae

p.s. whilst some of you are wanting to shake poor young Dorothea, I want to shake ELIOT...and say, "Get over yourself!!"

It's kind of like, if I want dark I'll read Wuthering Heights again!! Well maybe a few more rooms in Casaubon's home or some more visits to dusty old libraries will provide the ambience Hardy provides that I somehow seem to be missing right now...

JOANP, if I'm not mistaken Mary Garth is a relative of Featherstones first wife, a niece, I think. I don't think her dependant status is at all a happy one for her. And from the way the old tyrant treats Fred and his sister, I suspect he is unpleasant to Mary as well.

Mary Garth may have a personal interest in Lydgate, but not necessarily. She knows Rosamund well enough to think men who are attracted to her must be blind or foolish. Mary is not a woman to suffer fools gladly.

Naturally Mrs. Waule wants to keep the money in the family.primarily her family. But her attack on Fred, with those 'rumors' Scrawler spoke of, is vicious. I get the impression there isn't much she wouldn't do to be sure of that money. And the thing is, she is already quite well off and doesn't need it. It's just pure greed.

Babi

Little Mrs. Waule, described as "neutral" in look and face is not as neutral as depicted.

Not only do I see rumors flying about, but I also see a lot of controlling of others going on. Some of the parties just love "having something" on someone else whereby they can control them and get their vote, or their money or just whatever else it is that they want.

I think that a question was asked about who we liked best so far , or somesuch. I can't say that I like any of the characters right now. Either they are vain, or shiftless, or snobby, or controlling, or some other sort of horribly negative character trait. I get a chuckle now and again, but my overriding feeling about the people in this town is disgust. Is this how Eliot felt about her contemporaries?

There is someone coming up in the next section that I feel the glimmer of a positive feeling for, but I'll leave that till we start the next section. Perhaps there's hope.

But of course. Thanks Babi. I wondered about Mary's relationship to Featherstone. If his first wife was Mary's aunt, then she must have been the sister of which parent? If Rosamund gave Eliot the most trouble in developing a character and keeping her consistent , Mary must have been her favourite. Mary's father resembled Eliot's father in some respects.

Sure, Eliot is difficult in places. An early impression is that she is very much aware of an epic theme, almost a vision of human life, and struggling with it, with endless interactions, ideals, circumstances, illusions, free will, and the constraints of fate, all happening in Middlemarch. Eliot, after all was an intellectual, working with tons and tons of notes, just like Casaubon. It takes an effort at times to understand what she getting at with some of the abstruse stuff, but it's more than made up for with fine descriptions of the nitty gritty stuff of all these lives thrown together.

Of course Mrs Waule is just looking after her own. She's so perturbed that Fred might get the inheritance. And not her own son, John. I'm not going back to London before I find out who gets the money. And meanwhile she's always dressed in crepe. And she's not even one of the Evangelicals. They must have been the gloomy ones. What a difference a hundred years make. The last time I looked, it was the Evangelicals who are having all the fun.

Getting a feel for all these people will, all in good time, make their story intensely interesting Here's another quote from the Haight bio, to awaken enthusiasm. In a letter to GE from Benjamin Jowett, the eminent Oxford scholar, he says:

'Let me take the opportunity of congratulating you on the entire success of your last great word (MM). It is a bond of conversation and friendship everywhere. We all of us have our wishes and interests about the future of the Garths. I must wish you also rest after such a great intellectual effort. For we cannot be always writing either in a small or in a large way, as I know by experience.'

Isn't that interesting. Are the Garths the ones who should be holding our attention?

It seems that Victorians turned to Eliot to be instructed about life. We, too, do want to learn, don't we. And be entertained. Let's not turn back now. Surely we all want to know whose dreams come true. Or what miseries lie in the way.

It is probably easier for people of recent British heritage like myself to understand this book. We were taught a lot of British history in schools, our culture til recently was very definately British and we until fairly recently ran our school system very much on the British system.

However as I read this book and look at the same time at our society and our concerns we have grown away from Britain and we have our own defined culture now. We look more to our Asian neighbours now rather than to Britain. Our grandchildren are going to find that British literature is just as much of a mystery to them as it is to those who are finding Middlemarch heavy going right now.

If I find Eliot is pontificating too much I just skip those parts. There is still much to enjoy in the book. If it had been written today the editor may have suggested eliminating some of this stuff before publication! Some of the pontification is just TOO tedious.

Carolyn

Isn't that interesting. Are the Garths the ones who should be holding our attention?

Ah ah ah...not till we start the next section!

The importantance of family is one of many themes in this novel. After reading chapter 13, you have to ask yourself: what do people really owe their families? Is blood ties thicker than friendship? Sir James friendship is strong enough to continue even after Dorothea's marriage.

Does family ties obligate people to behave other than the way they would normally behave? For example, Lydgate's hopes depend on his siding with Bulstrode in a matter that does not concern him at all.

In this novel there are several family ties, but it seems to me that the only thing these ties result in are several "knoty" situations.

Let's save questions and observations on Chapter XIII for tomorrow - (see schedule in heading above.) The last day hard, but I think we have agreed to restrain ourselves. Some won't start reading Chapter XIII until then.

About RUMOR...what is rumor? Is it idle gossip, or is it the only way the women, especially the country women heard the "news"? Think about it! Word, news, rumor spread through the maids - Mrs. Fritchit, Casaubon's housekeeper...Mrs. Cadwallader - and of course, Mrs. Waule.

The Garths? Well, I don't pay attention to what a reviewer has to say about a book - or its characters before I've even read the book - but will admit that Mary Garth has my attention already after having read the first book. Babi, if it's not because she resents Lydgate's attention to Rosamond, why is Mary so out of sorts now? Perhaps she's always this way? She says somewhere that she goes about pretending to be amiable. She seems anything but, in this scene, don't you think?

Let's wait until tomorrow - new - and shocking bit of information about the Garths!

Flora, we need that constant reminder - Eliot is painting a larger picture while we concern ourselves with the affairs of the Middlemarchers. Thank you! As you noted, "Victorians turned to Eliot to be instructed about life." There is much here for self-realization as well...

Carolyn, we're relying on you and Gumtree to help fill in some of the blanks regarding British history. Thanks for staying in town, despite the occasional rough going. Sounds as if you have a plan when you find yourself in murky waters...

Can someone explain to mean what the deal is with going into the clergy? Is it a well respected thing to do? Or something you do when you can't do anything else? Did you not have to have a "calling" to do it? Seems like any old Tom, Dick or Harry is talking about going into the clergy...what's up with this. TIA.....

Entering the clergy was a position taken often by the second son of the gentry to provide a living. Often the "living" that was offered was in their parents parish. There was often ambition to ascend to a high position in the Church of England hierachy first as a Deacon, Arch Deacon and then Bishop. These postions gave a comfortable income. Their parents donations to the church would be considerable. The clergy as described in Middlemarch refers to the Church of England. The positions often described as "a living" and that is just what it was. These positions were more for a convenience often rather from what we would understand as a calling.

There was a lot of politics within the church and there still is in the two oldest Christian religions the Catholic and C of E faiths.

Carolyn

Today the preacher was talking about the "Church of England" and how our churches of today were sister churches of the Church of England. He also said that today or on any given Sunday there is less than 30 people found in any English church. Is that possible?

Those statistics sound about right to me, Andy, judging from what I have recently read about religion in Europe. It is not doing well, especially in non-Catholic countries. This country is always talking about God and having arguments about religious matters, and a lot of matters that really don't have much to do with religion, but Europeans, especially the majority of the young, aren't very religious at all.

As for the clergy and going into it in Middlemarch, I agree with Kiwi--it was an honorable profession for younger sons (ones who would not inherit the land). In fact at the time, clergy were higher on the social scale than doctors, considerably higher. Sounds strange to us now, but it was like that once.

Well, I'm not too wild about the way Mr. Lydgate, after having had a conversation with her about the houses in his parish (?) assumed that although he thought she was 'a good CREATURE' and 'fine girl--but a little too earnest...' decided he found women like Dorothea 'tiresome to talk to. complaining they always wanted reasons and then, he ASSUMED, she would be too ignorant to understand 'the merits of any question...'

That really ticked me off!!! Even though perhaps in those times some of these attitudes were the prevailing ones, this man was allegedly educated. Guess he cut his classes on human sensitivity and intellectual perception!

As for gossip: in my courses I met rather a lot of Turks and Iranians, both men and women, and they explained that in communities where there was very little other common daily communication it was an important function of each community in a society to keep up with each other and also from one community to another. They were surprised to see that I had the opinion that gossip had any negative connotations at all. I thought that was so interesting. And they really did use that sort of communication for reasons of interest in each other and the comings and goings of the community and it seemed to bring them closer.

Alliemae

Two views of gossip:

"Such a town of 'yentes'!!!" and

"And they really did use that sort of communication for reasons of interest in each other and the comings and goings of the community and it seemed to bring them closer."

Which view do you have?

If you don't know what a yenta is, it's:

'Yenta: a busybody; a gossip; a walking, talking National Enquirer. "I wouldn't tell that yenta anything. In twenty minutes, the whole world would know my business!" '

BUBBYGRAM'S YIDDISH DICTIONARY

Whether you like it or not, the gossip flourishes everywhere, but especially in small towns and serves a function to communicate info, gossip and in ways 'control' the people - offices are often like this as well. Especially in the MM days when gossip was often the only communication, no phones, emails, etc. It was also one of the social mechanisms that joined people with its juicy flavor.

Myself, I do not care for small towns and its gossip but have learned its' functions in many situations. But the same social mechanism occurs on the boat docks for cruising people (another small community) and many many other places, and in fact, aside from urban anonimity (which I favor) I cannot think of where it does not occur.

The English people have a funny phrase for a nosy gossip: a "Nosy Parker" - it probably depends on the discretion of the person/people and how maliciously the gossip is used.

People here seem very bound by their family ties in MM, but then what other ties were there - no social safety nets, look at Farebrother's hoard.

The family also embodied class which in England is a major big deal even today although Eliot is very clever to show how the family's social and economic status can change.

Ms. Eliot is a very clever writer whatever shortcomings I might list with a large and ambitious canvas to fill.

Not everyone is enamored of GE. In 1883 Anthony Trollope wrote:

"It is, I think the defects of GE that she struggless too hard to do work that shall be excellent. She lacks ease."

But in 1885 Henry James wrote : "Her preoccupation with the universe helped to make her characters strike you as also belonging to it;it raised the roof, widened the area, of her aesthetic structure. Nothing is finer ,in her genius,than the combinationof her love of general truth and love of the special case;without this,indeed ,we should not of heard of her as a novelist,for the passion of the special case is surely the basis of the storytellers art".

So the debate began then and we continue it today. Personally, I would join the Henry James camp.What would others say?

Judy

Judy: thank you for bringing us those interesting quotes.

""Her preoccupation with the universe helped to make her characters strike you as also belonging to it;it raised the roof, widened the area, of her aesthetic structure".

That's the way I feel about her. I'm a sociologist, and she really has the "sociological imagination": she sees people as standing "at the intersection of biography and history", both living their own lives and living the lives that their times makes possible to them.

What do you all think?

We have only read a mere 110 pages or so from a huge tome. Why make a decision like this so soon? I don't want to be like a MIDDLEMARCH character, jumping to judge and criticize before all is known. Waaaay too early for me to make a definitive assessment of Eliot.

Scootz--I have to agree. We are in early days here, and I think it's too soon to make any judgments about either Eliot or her characters. Someone mentioned --forgive me I can't remember who--that she couldn't find any characters to like yet. I would suggest that we have not had very much information about any of the characters yet; they are only being introduced. We have had a few scenes in which Dorothea appeared as well as Mr. Brooks and Celia. We have met others for passing moments at a dinner party. We have seen Featherstone and Mary Garth and Fred and Mrs. Vincy, also very briefly. And the lovely --and very blonde--Rosamond. We've met Mrs. Cadwallader and her rector husband. Others have appeared fleetingly--Will Ladislaw, for example.

There is plenty of time and much room in this novel for some, perhaps many, of the characters to become fully developed. In the section for this week, we discover a little about Lydgate, the new doctor in town. He's full of new ideas such as that doctors should do more than just hand out bromides. Revolution lurks in his soul and it has nothing to do with politics.

Maryal

Good morning!

When folks assemble here this early, it means we are more than ready to begin Book Two - the "Old and Young." (Why do you think Eliot didn't title this book "Young and Old?")

After having read Book One, my impression is that Eliot is presenting us with the idealistic dreams of youth and how these dreams were realized in some of the "old" - older characters ie. Bulstrode, Featherstone...perhaps in Farebrother, Cadwallader. Choices made in youth - or not made - determine what we have all become, don't they?

It is early to judge/criticize. We do have a long way to go. But we all have first impressions by now. If we conducted a poll, I bet we'd all be somewhere between

Trollope - " she struggless too hard to do work that shall be excellent. She lacks ease."

...and James - "Her preoccupation with the universe helped to make her characters strike you as also belonging to it; it raised the roof."

Maryal, I agree, the characters were introduced in Book I, but not developed to the point that we were able to relate to them. As Andy put it - they are beginning to get some "meat" on their bones in Book Two. This week we get a look closer at the "Old" who control the future and the "Young" who must make decisions that will shape their destiny. Will an outsider stand a better chance of avoiding community pressure in determining his future?

Why do you think Eliot didn't title this book "Young and Old?"

The old is the status quo, it comes first as being established already. . The young is Lydgate, an orphan (and therefore without familial ties and obligations) who will forge the way forward to reform.

I am sitting in the dining car, hungry for new questions. Feed me!

Scootz...pass the kippers and look "up" for the questions!

ps. The orphan will TRY to forge the way to reform! At least he has a plan!

2. How do Lydgate's dreams and ambitions compare with Dorothea's?

As I read the following this morning I was struck...where have I heard THIS before?

"..the conviction that the medical profession as it might be was the finest in the world; presenting the most perfect interchange between science and art; offering the most direct alliance between intellectual conquest and the social good."

Ding ding ding ding ding!!! Isn't this also Dorothea's line of thought?

I feel a bit more satified . I'll push back from the table and watch everyone else eat now.

I'm off for early water aerobics class but I just wanted to note that as I read these chapters I have to remind myself that these characters are like friends. We're getting to know them and have to love them for their shortcomings. I shall return. The abbitious Lyndgate tickles me.

Re: For Your Consideration Sept.19 - 25 ~ Chapters XIII - XVII Sept.26 - Oct.2 ~ Chapters XVII - XXI

Does this mean we are supposed to be reading Chapters XIII - XVII this week or should we have read them last week while discussing the previous chapters?

I have been reading the chapter that was listed and I wonder if I read the following chapters while discussing the preceding chapters I'll get them mixed up.

In other words, are we this week both reading and discussing Chapters XIII -- XVII? Or are we supposed to be reading Chapters XVII --XXI and just discussing XIII -- XVII in which case I shall really be confused in my posting.

How is everyone else doing this?

Thanks, Alliemae

Alliemae--This week we are reading and discussing chapters XIII-XVII. However, since we all read at different rates, I'll bet that not everyone has read all the way through Chapter XVII. The questions are set up to refer to the entire chunk of reading. I think that you can read however you are most comfortable. Sometimes I fall a little behind as I did last week because of bronchitis and teaching. This week I have almost finished Chapter XVII.

How does everyone else do it?

Well, I'm not too wild about the way Mr. Lydgate, after having had a conversation with her about the houses in his parish (?) assumed that although he thought she was 'a good CREATURE' and 'fine girl--but a little too earnest...' decided he found women like Dorothea 'tiresome to talk to. complaining they always wanted reasons and then,' he ASSUMED, she would be too ignorant to understand 'the merits of any question...'

That really ticked me off!!! Even though perhaps in those times some of these attitudes were the prevailing ones, this man was allegedly educated. Guess he cut his classes on human sensitivity and intellectual perception!

As for gossip: in my courses I met rather a lot of Turkish and Iranian men and women, and they explained that in communities where there was very little other common daily communication it was an important function of each community in a society to keep up with each other and also from one community to another. They were surprised to see that I had the opinion that gossip had any negative connotations at all. I thought that was so interesting. And they really did use that sort of communication for reasons of interest in each other and the comings and goings of the community and it seemed to bring them closer.

Now, as we go on to the next segment, I hope I will learn more about Mary Garth and poor, young Fred!

Alliemae

Thanks Deems! I am right where I should be then as last night I couldn't put the book down!!

Alliemae

I get such a kick out of the ambitious doctor and ”in Middlemarch at that time such an impression was significant of great things being expected from him.” What was it that the Middlemarchers thought so special about this 27 year old man?

He had been orphaned and had decided early on that medicine would be his “gig.” As a young man his moment of vacation came when he found his “first vivid notion of finely adjusted mechanism in the human frame” when opening a chapter on the valves of the heart, under the head of Anatomy. This is when he found intellectual passion. I love passion; passion begets enthusiasm and excitement. Lydgate was an emotional creature, “with a flesh and blood sense of fellowship which withstood all the abstractions of special study." Now he looks for reform- he’s my kind of guy. Let us read further and see how impassioned he becomes.

Later friends, I'm off to line dancing and Mah-jong.

I would like to add to Kiwi's explanation of the clergy as a preferred profession for younger sons of the gentry. At this time, it had also become an opening for sons of the upper(wealthy) middle class, like Fred Vincy, to move into a 'gentlemans' profession. Which, of course, is exactly what his father wants him to do.

ALLIEMAE, I have always disliked gossip, yet I also felt that it was important to pass along appropriate information. I want to know that Lena is sick, that Jim's mother has died, etc. I think BBC had it exactly right when she said it was how it was used that mattered. If titillating bits of scandal are being passed, or someone is making snide remarks about another...that I don't want to hear. There has been more than one occasion when I got up and left a group for that reason. And more than one occasion when I bluntly said what I thought of it, which effectively stopped it. At least so long I remained there.

The last time I looked, it was the Evangelicals who are having all the fun." Daytripper, you are so right!

Babi

I believe that I find the posts more interesting than the book, although I have not read much so far. But something struck me funny, it is the name of some of the characters. I don't know what made me look it up in my phone book to see if I was just not used to them but I was surprised to see 25 names listed under Casaubon, 4 Featherstone, 1 Fitchitt, 1 Ladislaw and NO Bulstrode, Lydgate, Waule, Chickely, Cadwalleder, Forebrother, Tyke, Lord Megatherium and get this one, Freshitt Hall and there are many more names ahead. My tongue gets twisted from trying to pronounce those names. Is Eliot trying to send a message here I wonder? But what is it?

In my mother's family, my grandfather was supposed to go into the clergy. I remember he used to tell me, that the priest on various occasions tried to discourge my great-grandfather from pressuring my grandfather into the clergy telling him that my grandfather was ill suited for it. To make a long story short, my grandfather ran away to America and went into business. His older brother returned to Greece from America and went into the family business and his younger brother became a soldier even though he wanted to go into the clergy. Unfortuately, his younger brother died in the Turkish war. There have always been rumors that he refused to fight and would rather be with the dying and wounded giving them comfort.

Money: The importance of money is yet another theme of this novel. Featherstone is not only a financial miser, but an emotional one as well. He enoys holding back money from people. Fred, on the other hand, spends money with the belief that some how or other something will happen that will get him the money he fells he deserves and needs because he is always getting into trouble and debt.

Socially, money also determines a person's place in society. Lydgate is socially disadvantaged because he is poor, and Sir James is highly regarded not only because he is friendly, but also because he is wealthy. And than middle class people like the Vincys, are able to lift themselves up into a higher class through money.

At the turn of the century in America, there was term used new-money and old-money. New money referred to those who had made money from schemes in silver and gold mines and other business ventures, while old money referred to those whose family had money for generations.

Here I am, talking about social class again. Sociologists will do that until someone shuts them up -- just skip this if you're not interested.

"new-money and old-money". Yes, that social dance goes on everywhere, including in the States, and that is what we are seeing in Middlemarch.

Usually, the money (or source of money -- land in England) is passed on to the oldest son. But what is passed to the other sons and daughters? Having money is transformed into having a certain life style, which can be passed to all of the family members.

But when status becomes not just a matter of money, but of life style, it changes from being "what you have" to being "who you are". This lifestyle of a "gentleman" or "lady" becomes the core of how people identify themselves.

People will literally die, rather than lose this sense of "who they are". So, we hear stories of "gentlemen in reduced circumstances" committing suicide when they can't afford to keep up their membership in their "gentleman's club". To some people, this sense of "who they are" is what gives meaning to their lives, and without it, life becomes meaningless.

We talked about this when discussing "The Iliad" because both Achilles and Hector did this: knowingly chose death rather than lose the sense of themselves as great hero's. In medieval Europe, knights sense of honor wouldn't let them adopt any strategy in battle. They had to stand in the front row and charge. Sometimes there were so many standing in the front row, they couldn't move. And they were slaughtered whenever they met an enemy that didn't have the same sense of honor.

It seems heroic when played out in battle, but it is played out in ordinary life, too. If "new money" which lacks the lifestyle, were accepted as equal to old money, that would make this sense of "who we are" meaningless. So, old money resists new money with everything it has. New money then tries to give its children the proper life style. This may take one, or more, generations.

Rosamund is in a precarious situation. She has been educated to see herself as a "lady", but has failed to marry a "gentleman". She is clever, but too shallow to have any understanding o what is happening to her. Her very sense of self is threatened if she can't find a "gentleman " to marry. Lydgate seems perfect. But is he?

Yes, she is a shallow snob. But I feel sorry for her.

Andy, I thought I was busy...but you my dear put us all to shame. Water aerobics, line dancing...Mahjong - and all before lunch!

Will be back shortly to savor all of this morning's posts.

Folks, please note - when you find material in other sources, you MUST put the information in quotation marks and also cite your source so that the rest of us can judge the source and weigh its merits.

Well I for one am reading slowly. I have read this novel before in my early 20's along with about 100 classics that my mother-in-law, an English teacher gave to me.She gave me lots of Jane Austin, Thackeray, and G.Elliot. She had sets of T. Hardy, Dickens, and to represent American English, Mark Twain. I read so many novels from those early English I get them all mixed up in my mind. And of course I have forgotten the storyline of most of them.

I have already formed an opinion of Balstrade the banker. He is certainly a bully. First he tries to make the Dr. commit to his own plans re a chaplain for the hospital then he begins to bully Mr Vince regarding Fred's request for denial of the letter re the slander over at Fetherstones.

" You like to be master, there's no denying that; you must be first chop in heaven, else you won't like it much. But you're my sister's husband, and we ought to stick together; and if I know Harriet, she'll consider it your fault if we quarrel because you strain at a gnat in this way, and refuse to do Fred a good turn. And I don't mean to say I shall bear it well. I consider it unhandsome."

Mr. Vincy rose, began to button his great-coat, and looked steadily at his brother-in-law, meaning to imply a demand for a decisive answer."

It seems the Mr Vince won this round as Harriet received her letter the next morning. It carried a letter for Fred to use to convince Mr. Fetherstone, another Bully -however he bullies with his money. Perhaps these "old" feel they must bully and push around the "young" eh?

I am beginning to see Fred has some good points as he seems truly to care about Mary Garth and resents the way Fetherstone pushes her around.

I am also just now getting a good feeling about Dr. T.L. and when he pushed back at the banker I liked him even more. I wonder what the fuss was about the chaplain for the hospital but with most of Elliot I will guess that it will come clear in the end...if I don't get to tired to finish :>) faith

Faith--I wondered what all the to do about who was appointed to be the chaplain at the new hospital was about too. I'm sure we will find out. All we know at this point is that Bulstrode is determined to have a certain Mr. Tyke and he is trying to get Lyndgate's support. For reasons as yet not spelled out, Bulstrode doesn't want Farebrother. If I were choosing, on names alone, I would take a Farebrother over a Tyke any day in the week! Apparently, Bulstrode approves of Mr. Tyke's sermons which have a lot of doctrine in them.

JoanK--You can give me all the sociology you like. I really like looking at things from a perspective I'm not trained in and there are many social classes in this novel. There also seems to be mobility among those classes. It is possible to marry badly (as Casaubon's aunt did) and have your family talk about you with shame forever, but it is also possible to marry up as Rosamond (the blonde!) hopes to do.

I think Rosamond better start thinking though since she seems to have chosen Lydgate on the information that his family is well-connected. She doesn't have a clue about whether or not he can keep her in the style to which she would like to become accustomed.

Faith Fred reminds me of Peck's bad boy, doesn't he? Old man Featherstone sure has a good time ribbing him about the prospect of his being an heir. It seems mean to me though. Why does the old guy take to Fred like that, I wonder? He demanded the written word of Mr. Bulstorde and then negated it when Fred brought it to him as he had ordered. Is he dangling his wares in front of poor old Freddy?

No Joan, I am NOT full of energy. I keep up with the aerobics the best way that I can and Mah-jong is for my brain. (What's left of it.)

You folks are all over town today - like Mrs. Cadwallader in her phaeton! Eloise, I love to say the names too...expecially Mrs. "Cadwallader" - it rolls right off the tongue. I'm not sure where Eliot gets her names, whether they are representative or not. I get somewhere with Rev. Farebrother's name...but the others? I read a footnote that Casaubon's name - and character is based on a true person. Will go look that up after dinner.

Fae: Bulstrode - Mr. Bully! Oh yes. We need to talk about him. Where did he get his power? What is his game? Featherstone - another controlling bully. A hard, hurtful man, who is teasing his would-be-heirs into his service. "FeatherStone", aptly named. Andy, I'm trying to figure out what Featherstone really plans for Fred. Does he really like him? He is ready to forgive the gambling escapade. Does he really believe Fred was innocent?

Babi, how do you think Mrs. Waule's bit of gossip regarding Fred's gambling debt was used? If you had this information and you were in her place, would you sit on it? Do you think the gossip was heresay, or that it was based on fact? Was it "vicious?"

I have a bad feeling about Fred. He is counting on that inheritance with no PLAN B in mind. What if Featherstone ends up leaving the money to Mary G - would they marry then?

JoanK - please do- sociologize all you want. You provide so food for thought - "When status becomes not just a matter of money, but of life style, it changes from being "what you have" to being "who you are". Do you think we are coming to the end of an era in British History now? Did the Industrial Revolution and the Reform Acts shake up the status quo? I made a note that Mrs. Plymdale (?)thought Rosamond was educated to a "ridiculous pitch" and that would "all be laid aside when she married." I remember wondering at the time how long this system of education for women went on. When were women "seriously" educated? In Rosamond's eyes, Lydgate would be the perfect husband. He's not from Middlemarch. Her social status would improve. That's all she cares about. Maryal, come to think of it - she doesn't even ask about his financial status. Does she assume he has money because he is associated with Mr. Bulstrode perhaps??

ps. Fai - we should all have mothers-in-law like yours.

pps. ...And energy like Andy's!

We seem to be a bit divided in our assessment of Tertius Lydgate, don't we? Scootz - "Looking for the perfect world." Uh oh, there is no such thing. Is there disappointment on the horizon?

Andy is getting a kick out of the ambitious doctor, who assumes that the whole town thinks his coming to town is significant. Has this gone to his head? (I think so, but I don't think he knows it.)

I'll agree, I too am impressed with his intellectual passion, Andy. And I've always envied those who knew at an early age what they wanted to do with their lives. What a gift!

He's "emotional"...I think we need to ask about that. How will emotions interfere with the discipline needed to carry out the five year plan?

Fae likes him...he seems to be standing up to Bulstrode. Is he?

Alliemae, which girl did Lydgate pronounce "a good CREATURE' and 'fine girl--but a little too earnest? I'm going to guess it was Mary Garth? I find myself getting exasperated with Lydgate...and the way he is eying and evaluating the girls - deciding whom he would and would not marry if he wanted to. Something rubs me the wrong way here.

Love to hear how each of you see him and understand these characters. Hopefully, we will understand more about the influence of Religion, Science and Reform on the Middlemarchers - by the time we finish Book II!

Scootz - "Looking for the perfect world." Uh oh, there is no such thing. Is there disappointment on the horizon?

This comment and your other about him TRYING to forge a new path..seem like spoilers to me. Am I misreading this? Please don't hint at things if that's what's happening here. Like everyone else, I want to discover things as I go and have been doing my utmost not to get ahead of things. TIA.....

Scootz, if a spoiler, I am so sorry. As a discusion leader, the very last thing I'd want to do is SPOIL this discussion!!! Maybe I'm omniscient? No, I haven't read any further than this week' s schedule. I NEVER do. When anyone sets goals too high...like Perfection...my blinkers go on....off. That's all I was saying in response to your comment about Lydgate seeking a perfect world. As to "forging a new path"...I don't remember that at all. Let me run a SEARCH. Will be right back.

Here's what I found using the SEARCH button...

Scootz - "The young is Lydgate, an orphan (and therefore without familial ties and obligations) who will forge the way forward to reform.

JoanP: "The orphan will TRY to forge the way to reform." At least he has a plan!"

Is this what you were referring to? Same explanation...your post indicated that Lydgate WILL forge the way to reform. I'm not so sure he will - the plan to save the world looks too ambitious to me and we are warned (in these pages) that this young man is already on the radar screen of a very clever, ambitious young lady. Perhaps now is the time to examine the doctor's two-part plan for the next five years of his life in Middlemarch...

Does that make 1st Gentleman a spoiler, or another witness? I believe I saw somewhere that unless indicated otherwise, these mottoes for chapter headings, too, were written up by the author.

While waiting to see the doctor today, for a second opinion on whatever it is that's blurring my vision when I read - this morning I got only as far as the end of the first paragraph of Chapter 13 - it crossed my mind that that is just what the narrator does in introducing Mr Bulstrode. Along with her own character assessment, she calls on Dr Lydgate for a second opinion. A hundred pages into her story and the narrator is still only introducing her personnae. No one was more surprised than she, when readers were eager to buy into a second instalment of her serialized novel. Some readers seem to think that Book I could stand on its own as a brilliant portrayal of a potentially tragic female character. In that case the author put a tremendous onus on herself to satisfy the great expectations of her readers. And she did worry herself sick over it. Until once again all her people swarmed through her brain trying to be heard.

And here comes Mr Bulstrode with a most curious introduction. A complex figure seemingly. A second opinion isn't enough for the narrator. To give a proper impression of Mr Bulstrode, Fred Vincy's nemesis it would seem, the narrator calls as witnesses, not only herself, but the reader himself of all things ('Do not imagine'...etc). She calls on Bulstrode's fellow-townsmen, many of whom feel uncomfortable in the glare of Mr B's 'moral lantern'. Holy Writ is consulted about voice features, about loud and subdued tones. The publicans and sinners of Middlemarch are consulted. And finally, Dr Lydgate.

With that it gets interesting. Can the doctor get it right. He's already been judged on some of his calls. He seems to be right about Dorothea. His feelings about Rosamond are questionable. After a quick visual, Lydgate has Bulstrode with a poor constitution and a rich inner life. More correctly 'an eager inward life', whatever we are to understand by that. The doctor's 'indifferent' attitude strikes one.

Lydgate must feel confident about his wine-cellar. Clearly he does not feel the suspicions of some Middlemarchers regarding Mr Bulstrode. All that and more in the first paragraph.

My posts may be erratic or sporadic, depending on how well I can stay focused. Flora

Flora: you're posts are excellent -- you certainly don't need to apologize..

Yes, Eliot is telling us something about Mr. Bulstrode. I haven't read ahead, but I'm very wary of him.

I can't decide if his position on the clergymen is just cracking the whip, and letting Lydgate know he has to roe the line, or if there is something more there. I can't imagine what. But we'll find out.

Joan...the 'good CREATURE'and fine girl' (according to Lydgate) was Dorothea...I think I mentioned her name further down in the sentence.

I, too, was finding myself exasperated with Lydgate...what a presumptuous thing to do...yet, it was in his mind; I think he was just thinking to himself...hmmm I wonder...

Alliemae

Judy, thanks for quoting H. James: “Nothing is finer, in her genius, than the combination of her love of general truth and love of the special case; without this, indeed, we should not of heard of her as a novelist, for the passion of the special case is surely the basis of the storytellers art".
I think Eliot’s “storyteller’s art” is the road to the “general truth” that she wishes to share. She is an old-fashioned, didactic author, with a sharp perception of human nature in its infinite variety. The qualities and inclinations of human nature she captures persuade me that we haven’t really changed. I see the same idealism in callow youth and the pride and self-importance of the old who are convinced that they have a special grasp on truth and often a special entitlement to reverence and indulgence. Dorothy and Lydgate are inspired by the possibilities of the roles they can play in the future, as young people must be if they are to be strong enough to make contributions to their own societies. Even the mistakes they are making are part of a growing process that will humble them and fit them to go on with the best part of their dreams. Featherstone and Bulstrode fit into the second category. Featherstone is manipulative and nasty, parts of his nature that enable him to control others in his enfeebled state. (Does he deserve poor Fred’s sympathy? If not Fred will decide that later, maybe!) Bulstrode is an even more special case: a money manager who also feels entitled to manage souls. He believes he knows the truths about God, the spirit, and man’s spiritual and moral duty; therefore, he is entitled to sit in judgment on Fred and Vincy and everybody else in Middlemarch, I assume. He would have made a great Inquisition judge.

Good morning, Breakfast Club!

I think we have begun to uncover some of the factors motivating the powers-that-be players in Middlemarch. Some important questions you asked yesterday:

"I wonder what the fuss was about the chaplain for the hospital."

" Bulstrode is determined to have a certain Mr. Tyke and he is trying to get Lyndgate's support." Why?

"I can't decide if his position on the clergymen is just cracking the whip, and letting Lydgate know he has toe the line, or if there is something more."

Do you get the feeling that Eliot's readers knew exactly where she was coming from? If we put our collective heads together, we might come up with some answers - and see things as the Middlemarchers do...

Flora - your insightful observations are a very good place to start, I think. Yes, you do remember correctly - all of the epigrams at the start of each chapter were written by the author, unless otherwise noted. So, the first spoiler is the author - questioning in this epigram how you class your unread books...by size, by vellum pages, by cover (2nd Gent)...and as you noted...from the 1st Gent - how do you judge a man beneath his cloak..."As saint or knave, pilgrim or hypocrite?" You asked if the first gent is a spoiler or a witness.

To add to the questioning of Mr. Bulstrode's true character, you remind of other "witnesses" - and finally Lydgate, another "witness" and observation of Bulstrode's "rich inner life."

Would you all mind terribly rereading Mr. Bulstrode so we better understand

*why Bulstrode has so much power in this town...when so many question and oppose his views and values?

* What is the author saying about the man, other than to suggest there is something going on beneath his benevolent cloak?

*What is the connection between religion and medicine in the 1830's?

* where does Lydgate, as a doctor really stand? on the religion/medicine issue? As Flora pointed out, Lydgate's judgment calls have been questionable - his interest in the vacuous Rosamond and dismissal of Dorothea, for example.

- Alliemae - I went back and reread the text where Lydgate scrutinizes Mary Garth and see that the only reason he gave her a look was because the adorable creature spoke to her so pleasantly. So, Mary did not even merit his attention.

Edit: Jo, what are you doing up so early? I'll bet it's because you are looking for the kippers - or was it the red herring? I'm going to go read your post as I nibble on mine...

Flora--Good luck with the second opinion on bluriness while reading. Is your blood sugar elevated? If you have cataracts, not to fear. I just had mine removed this summer with lenses implanted to correct my near-sightedness and I can see marvelously. The only reason I think of high blood sugar is that last Fall while I was teaching, I had many problems--suddenly--with reading the text. And it was blurry. Anyway, good luck, and odds are good whatever it is can be fixed.

Now to join the general fray about Lydgate and whether or not he is a perfectionist (doomed to failure in this very imperfect world) or, as I think, an idealist. He wants to improve the practice of medicine AND contribute to medical knowledge. One description of his thinking is, I think, especially pertinent to our own time:

"since professional practice chiefly consisted in giving a great many drugs, the public inferred that it might be better off with more drugs still if they could only be got cheaply, and hence swallowed large cubic measures of physic prescribed by unscrupulous ignorance which had taken no degrees."

Lydgate intends to sharply cut back on this dispensing of meds, planning to prescribe instead of dispense: "One of these reforms was to act stoutly on the strength of a recent legal decision, and simply prescribe, without dispensing drugs or taking percentage from druggists." (chapter 15)

What with all the controversy surrounding the power of pharmaceutical companies in the U.S. at this time and the various ways they persuade doctors to accept their new products, this seems to me a very timely consideration.

Also the whole idea, very contemporary, that there must be/should be a medication out there to fix virtually everything from Attention Deficit Disorder to Impotence. It's enough to make one's head spin. Hard to imagine how people in the past managed to educate overactive children, doesn't it?

(An aside--My daughter teaches art to children and adults. For quite a while now she has had a children's Saturday morning class. This is the first session that she has turned it down. She did so because that class was always overfilled and many of the kids were on medications for ADD. But their parents apparently weren't convinced that the drugs were completely good for them so on the weekends, they let the kids rest and not take the meds. BUT instead of keeping them home and watching the results, they enrolled them in classes, among them my daughter's morning class. Susan told me that the parents didn't even tell her that their child was normally medicated until she asked them, having noticed over-the-top behavior in class.)

Lydgate is indeed a passionate man, passionate about science, and we discover, passionate about a young actress in Paris. After that unfortunate experience, he comes to his senses and decides not to marry until he has established himself.

However, it has been my experience that passionate people are passionate people and that passion in any given area of life, be it medicine or business, usually indicates other passions lurking. Thus I conclude--and I have not read any further than Chap. XVII--that Lydgate is going to fall prey to his own passion and the lure of the (very blonde) Rosamond.

JoanP--The observation that Dorothea was beautiful but entirely too clever was Lydgate's.

Maryal

...they all seem to look down on women, one way or another...it is dismal, I agree. Today would men look at Dorothea any differently - I suspect not too differently. (See front page article in NY Times re many well-educated young women now want to be at-home moms....feminist bbc finds that really upsetting, maybe a comment on the need for better child care systems in USA.)

I have been de-railed by massive varnishing projects and resulting sore muscles....I will retrace my steps and get in step with the rest of you avid readers.

Thanks for all the good questions...very juicy group.

I've been elsewhere for a day or two and come back to see so many entries that I don't know where to start - Not only that, but I see references to other reading like Anna Karenina and Iliad - Now, why wasn't I told!! I'm afraid to let myself think of what else I may have missed SOB SOB

I don't like Mrs Waule either still less her hateful old brother Featherstone - he is a very nasty old man - just the sort who would tease a baby. He gets his pleasure from tormenting those about him. He's supposed to be fond of Fred and Mary Garth yet humiliates Fred and reduces Mary to tears when she does him a kindness.

Incidentally, the scene where Featherstone unlocks his cashbox to give Fred the 100 pounds is very reminiscent of a scene in War and Peace when Pierre visits his dying uncle? and the locked box is brought out...There's a Mrs. Waule in attendance there as well! Curious.

I don't like Lydgate much either - he's too self-confident and ambitious for my liking. He tries to be idealistic but he is disdainful of the MMers, he's conceited and sure that he deserves better things - only think of that 'exquisite cambric handkerchief'. I think he's something of a 'Stuffed Shirt' Fred thinks he is a prig which to my mind says a lot for Fred.

I like Scrawler's assessment of the importance of money. Well said!

I haven't been playing Mahjong but I've still not quite caught up yet - too busy to burn much of the midnight oil. More anon, I hope.

PS BaBi The legendary Jim Thorpe is...well...legendary!

Red Herring! Phew worse than Kippers! I will stick to oatmeal.:>) And I want to comment on Fred Vince and Mary Garth ...the conversation or quarrel they had (at the end of chapter 13)re:their long standing affection and Mary' s dismay that she has to turn Fred down. I am sure they belong together in spite of the difficulties. But when Fred gives his mother money to hold for him I run across a thing that increases my dismay Mr Garth Mary's father holds a note of security for a debt owed by Fred! I don't remember reading that. I am truly aging. I am off to read a bit more before I eat my snack and then I must go shopping if I expect to eat again anytime soon. faith

There was no spoiler given about Lydgate, by Joan, our leader or anyone else in the discussion. The author writes in Chapter XV that There was another attraction in his profession: it wanted reform and gave a man an opportunity for some indignant resolve to reject its venal decorations and other humbug and to be the possessor of genuine though undemanded qualification. He studied in Paris…”

Eliot writes: “Does it seem incongruous to you that a Middlemarch surgeon should dream of himself as a discoverer? Most of us, know little of the great originators until they have been lifted up among the constellations and already rule our fates. "

She continues: “ He intended to begin in his own case some particular reforms which were quite certainly within his reach…”
The text is in our assigned chapters.

He sees himself without vices and Eliot tells us, “character too is a process and an unfolding. The man is still in the making.” I believe that about character myself, particularly when speaking of ones reputation and attributes. We are all victims of distinctive marks and it takes a while to develop them

BBC; “Discouraging thoughts from men” yes indeed. This is where I feel Eliot’s bitterness. As far as I can remember, some of the most sympathetic men (Cadwalleder, Farebrother) have not given their opinions on women.Yet Fred, who seems like a shallow scapegrace, is able to see Mary’s worth, in spite of her ugliness and is able to see through the shallowness of Rosamund’s pretensions to be “ladylike”.

GUMTREE:. Interesting point about War and Peace. It was published in Russian in 1865-1869. I don’t know if an English version would have been available to Eliot before she wrote Middlemarch or not. It’s interesting to speculate that she might have copied Mrs.Waule from Tolstoy.

You’ve missed a lot of good discussions, but there are more coming all the time. Check them out here. Or go into Book Bytes and suggest what you would like:

BOOKS AND LITERATURE

Faith, I was also startled to learn that Mary's father was even alive! I had supposed her to be an orphan, with no options but caring for her uncle and putting up with his nastiness. Why isn't she living with her father, I wonder? Perhaps it is felt that someone in the family must look after the old man, and Mary was given the job.

We now know that Bulstrode, the self-righteous, is offering his support to Lydgate, promising him a place at the hospital and support for future promotion. He is also making it very clear that this support is dependent on Lydgate supporting Bulstrode into putting his own choice of clergy into the hospital chaplains office. And, barring all other clergy from the hospital! There will be trouble over that, if he tries.

I wanted to pat Mr. Vincy on the back and say "Good for you!" when he confronted Bulstrode over the letter for Fred. He cut right through the BS [pardon, but it's apropos]. And not for the first time, apparently. "This was not the first time that Mr. Bulstrode had begun by admonishing Mr. Vincy, and had ended by seeing a very unsatisfactory reflection of himself in the coarse, unflattering mirror which that manufacturer's mind presented...."

One can only hope that this "unsatisfactory relection of himself" will eventually cause Mr. Bulstrode make some changes in his views and actions.

Babi

Yes, Lydgate is a prig, but as Alf points out “the man is still in the making”. Dorothea is a prig too. I’m an optimist – I want to believe that there is hope for both of them.

Yes, BABI. Bulstrode is incredibly annoying, isn’t he. I wonder how much attention people would pay him if he didn’t hold the purse strings.

What do you all think of his use of his religious ideas? Have you known people who do that?

From his name, I'd think that Bulstrode would be large and round, not to mention making a lot of noise walking around, but he is thin and sparse and he eats abstemiously. He is also preachy and no doubt hoping to make inroads into what he considers the lack of faith in Middlemarch. (Maybe it would be better to say "lax doctrine"?)

Good point about holding onto the purse strings, Joan K. One has to be careful around a banker if one wants loans. Featherstone also holds the pursestrings. I think he knows that he gets what little attention he does because of his relatives who are hoping for something in the will (Fred's "expectations," those of his sister, Mrs. Wahle). Just about every time he is mentioned, there are references to the codicils that he can add to his will.

Poor old man doesn't have anything much to do except alter his will and keep his heirs in hopes of getting lots of money/land.

Good morning...ah, I'm the first one here - first choice between the kippers, muffins and the oatmeal - (Eliot has provided the red herring, I see. -We need to watch her very closely.)

BBC, Still varnishing everything in sight? I've been thinking about what you said about ALL of the men looking down on women, one way or another. You're not including Fred, are you? I suppose he knows that Mary has no money, that he can't marry her without money. He doesn't seem to have it in him to find a way other his "expectations." I worry about Fred. There was a description of his mother as Niobe - that I found disturbing.

Can we talk about Mary Garth? - "angry with the ways of the world - doesn't like to be treated as if she has common sense." Mary Garth - doesn't-like-to-be-treated-as-if-she-has-common-sense. I NEED to know what the rest of you thought of this?

What is she doing at Featherstone's? Babi, I think Mary needs a "job" as you suggest. She had been a "teacher" - did you note why she decided she's rather "work" at Featherstone's? I'm wondering if Featherstone doesn't have "strings" on her father. I was as shocked - and dismayed as you were, Fae that Mary's father is the one who holds Fred's gambling debts!!! Do you think Featherstone KNOWS this? WHY did he, Featherstone REQUIRE Fred get it in writing from Bulstrode that he, Fred, did not try to borrow on his future inheritance. I'm thinking of your comment, Maryal - "One has to be careful around a banker if one wants loans." Do you believe that Fred really DID go to Bulstrode? Is F. trying to get something on B by getting him to write that letter? Is there some sort of power struggle going on between Featherstone and Bulstrode?

Quite a web our author is weaving, no? It seems that EVERYONE is getting caught in it, one way or another.

Coffee break - with a crumpet, or two...

The self-righteous Bulstrode is a complex character. I'm not sure we have enough on him yet to know what is in his heart. We know he has a conscience, that he sometimes looks within and sees himself - that quote from Babi yesterday - (Vincy is able to cut right through the "BS" (funny) - even though we learn here that Bulstrode has "strings" on Vincy too):

"This was not the first time that Mr. Bulstrode had begun by admonishing Mr. Vincy, and had ended by seeing a very unsatisfactory reflection of himself in the coarse, unflattering mirror which that manufacturer's mind presented...."

I'm not so sure these brief moments of introspection will be enough to make him change. Jo has put him into her "second category" - I'm not expecting any of these characters to "grow and change" - but will hope along with you, Babi!

JoanK - that's such a good question...have you known people like Bulstrode - people who are motivated by religious zeal? I've known a few, but don't really feel I know them, because they NEVER let on what is in their hearts. Maybe it is REAL - REAL ZEAL. If you watch what he does, instead of what he says - he seems to live a life stripped to the basics...and you know he could afford more. He supports all the charities in town. Is he pressuring the rich to give to the poor? Is there anything really wrong with this? I'm not defending him - but asking you?

He seems to think his Mr. Tyke would be a better chaplain for the new hospital - and lobbies for votes in his own way. I'm asking along with the rest of you - WHAT IS THE CONNECTION BETWEEN MEDICINE AND RELIGION at this time? What does one have to do with the other?

Maryal said something yesterday about "barring all other clergy from the hospital". Whoo. I didn't understand that. "He is no doubt hoping to make inroads into what he considers the lack of faith in Middlemarch." Is Bulstrode one of the Evangelicals? And Mr. Tyke too?

I'm finding it difficult to understand why Lydgate is involved with this whole chaplain issue. I'm assuming that he has sold his vote (his soul) to Bulgate strictly to advance himself in medical reform that is desperately needed at this time. I think Eliot described this period as the "dark time in medicine. But what does Lydgate see as the connection between religion and medicine?

I think this can be applied to Fred as well as to Lydgate. Fred is even younger than the doc. I think Fred's main trouble is that he can't settle to do anything because he lives in expectation of the real or imagined inheritance from Featherstone in contrast to Lydgate who has no such expectations and knows he has to work. Luckily Lydgate found a vocation. Maybe there is hope for Fred too.

JoanK: I rather think Eliot could have read War & Peace before MM went to press. I don't think W&P would have been published in English at that time but it is pretty certain to have been out in French which GE could well have read.

Morning, JoanP--We don't know yet, do we? About WHY Bulstrode wants Mr. Tyke and not Mr. Farebrother as chaplain? But we know that he does. There is also that small piece of information about Mr. Tyke's sermons having some doctrine in them.

As for Lydgate, it seems to me that medicine is his religion. He intends to devote himself to furthering its knowledge and getting rid of some of its humbuggery. I see him as attached to the hospital and only interested in who is appointed chaplain because he likes Mr. Farebrother. I'll go look for the quote.

Here's the part about Bulstrode being an Evangelical:

Hence Mr. Bulstrode's close attention was not agreeable to the publicans and sinners in Middlemarch; it was attributed by some to his being a Pharisee, and by others to his being Evangelical. Less superficial reasoners among them wished to know who his father and grandfather were, observing that five-and-twenty years ago nobody had ever heard of a Bulstrode in Middlemarch.

That quote is also interesting because it reinforces what we have already put together about Middlemarch--the town. This is a provincial town where it is unusual for outsiders to decide to live. Both Bulstrode and Lydgate are outsiders and they are looked at with curiosity and suspition by those "who belong" to the town. Bulstrode has been there 25 years, but his family was not there before him. He's still thought of as an outsider.

Found it.

It's in Chapter 16. There's a dinner party and the subject of the chaplaincy of the new hospital comes up. Here's the section:

The subject of the chaplaincy came up at Mr. Vincy's table when Lydgate was dining there, and the family connection with Mr. Bulstrode did not, he observed, prevent some freedom of remark even on the part of the host himself, though his reasons against the proposed arrangement turned entirely on his objection to Mr. Tyke's sermons, which were all doctrine, and his preference for Mr. Farebrother, whose sermons were free from that taint. Mr. Vincy liked well enough the notion of the chaplain's having a salary, supposing it were given to Farebrother, who was as good a little fellow as ever breathed, and the best preacher anywhere, and companionable too.

Mr. Vincy, who enjoys life and good companionship, not to mention parties and good food, wants Farebrother to get the appointment. It's here we learn that Mr. Tyke's sermons are all doctrine (this is what Bulstrode wants) and that Farebrother's lack doctrine. So two camps are set up as to who is to be appointed chaplain.

Maryal

Good morning, Gum! Have a crumpet! Happy to hear that you find Fred unfolding - I'm still worrying for him. Something ominous in that description of his mother as Niobe...

"Dorothy and Lydgate are inspired by the possibilities of the roles they can play in the future, as young people must be if they are to be strong enough to make contributions to their own societies. Even the mistakes they are making are part of a growing process that will humble them and fit them to go on with the best part of their dreams"

Jo, I've been thinking about this and asking - are Dorothy and Lydgate typical young people? Yes, most think of the possibilities for the future, but do they think about contributions they can make to society? I don't see that in Middlemarch, do you? The young seem to be waiting for something to happen that will improve their own situations. Are they thinking about anything beyond that?

GUM , yesterday on Lydgate - "he's too self-confident and ambitious for my liking. He tries to be idealistic but he is disdainful of the MMers, he's conceited and sure that he deserves better things." Now, the question before us - is Lydgate really interested in the contributions he can make to society, or is he interested what his contributions will mean to him?

Maryal, yesterday on Lydgate - "Passionate people are passionate people and that passion in any given area of life, be it medicine or business, usually indicates other passions lurking."

Andy - yesterday, brought us Eliot (the spoiler) and her thoughts on Lydgate:
“Does it seem incongruous to you that a Middlemarch surgeon should dream of himself as a discoverer? Most of us, know little of the great originators until they have been lifted up among the constellations and already rule our fates. "
She continues: “ He intended to begin in his own case some particular reforms which were quite certainly within his reach…”
JoanK - yesterday - "He sees himself without vices and Eliot tells us, 'character too is a process and an unfolding. The man is still in the making.'” Optimism! JoanK, Gumtree, Jo - optimistic about these young people! Who else?

Maryal, just see your post now. Bruce is calling - (he's made oatmeal for me - and Fae!) Back later...

Finally found the sentence I was looking for. Bulstrode is pushing Lydgate on the appointment of Mr. Tyke. Lydgate has no interest in religious disputes:

"I hope I shall have nothing to do with clerical disputes," said Lydgate. "The path I have chosen is to work well in my own profession."

We shall see whether or not he sticks to his guns.

Lydgate is sure to have something to do with clerical disputes. I liked meeting Farebrothers family and reading a description of their home life. Mrs. Farebrothers helps Eliot bring up part of the "story line" here explaining her own character to the DR.

"It is the same thing, the dinner or the man. I am nearly seventy, Mr. Lydgate, and I go upon experience. I am not likely to follow new lights, though there are plenty of them here as elsewhere. I say, they came in with the mixed stuffs that will neither wash nor wear. It was not so in my youth: a Churchman was a Churchman, and a clergyman, you might be pretty sure, was a gentleman, if nothing else. But now he may be no better than a Dissenter, and want to push aside my son on pretence of doctrine. But whoever may wish to push him aside, I am proud to say, Mr. Lydgate, that he will compare with any preacher in this kingdom, not to speak of this town, which is but a low standard to go by; at least, to my thinking, for I was born and bred at Exeter."

Mrs Farebrothers (conversation with Lydgate) Chapter 12

This exchange points up the changing society that Eliot is writing about. Church's, Politics, Manners, Society and Class demarcation are all changing. This book I think is meant to show us that.Though Middlemarch is a small provincial village with its surrounding Estates of the Upper Classes it is a microcism of society at large at that time. It is hard to get to Eliots meanings as she does go on and on explaining things but eventually everything comes together. It is clear to me that Lydgate is facing conflict regarding the banker. I am glad that Farebrother tells him they should stay friends even if he has to appease the banker to get his hospital going the way he wants it. fai

Just dropped in to say I'm going to be out of pocket for the next four days, at least. My daughter and I live in a low-lying area in the path of Hurricane Rita, and in a mobile home besides. As of noon tomorrow we will be under mandatory evacuation, so we are packing up. We plan to leave about 3am tomorrow morning to, hopefully, avoid both the heat and the worst of the traffic. Fortunately, we have friends to go to well out of the storm area.

I know there's going to be about 300 posts when I get back! I have no intention of reading them all.

<bg>Babi

Babi--All good wishes go with you. Out of the path of the storm you go. Don't worry about reading all the messages when you return, just come back safe and sound.

Maryal

Oh! Babi, I hope everything will be as you left it, stay safe at all costs please. My heart goes out to everybody in the path of hurricanes. It is too dreadful for words.

Love, Éloïse

Babi, I've been glued to the TV, tracking the storm...now a category 5! It's wonderful that you have friends to stay with. You don't worry about heavy traffic at 3am with this storm bearing down? I will be thinking of you every minute until it is over and you are back on line. (Take Middlemarch with you!) Safe home!

Thanks, Maryal, for citing the passage where we learn that some of Middlemarch society is blaming Bulstrode's Evangelicism for his wanting to replace the Rev. Farebrother...I've been noodling around looking for a bit more information on the Evangelicals - who are motivating our Mr. B. Will include sources so you can weight the information yourself -

"In general throughout the 18th and on to the 19th century, the whole of the English-speaking world is moving away from traditional religion defined by respect for authority, respect for the past, respect for the tradition, and moving toward a more individualistic, pragmatic, and practical of Christianity. ...What evangelicalism has been great at doing is bringing life back to cold religious form. But, evangelicalism is a parasitic movement. The great evangelical leaders are not theoreticians of institutions. Some of them are very good theologians on questions of personal salvation. They're not theologians of culture, they're not theologians of society. There are problems with the Christian outreach that is just the theology of society, but there are also problems when the individual attention is so strong that culture and society is lost sight of. Rise of the Evangelicals

"Simeon argued that there was a great need to raise moral enthusiasm and ethical standards among the clergy. The Clapham Sect, whose group included William Wilberforce and Granville Sharp, was another centre of the evangelical movement in the Anglican Church. Their primary interest was in the moral improvement of the working classes. Wealthy individuals were inspired by the Evangelical movement to give away their money to good causes." Evangelical Movement

I liked the feisty, outspoken Mrs. Farebrother too, Fae. She is expressing the old Anglican view of what the clergy should be. There are many who agree with her - including Vincy: - "It was not so in my youth: a Churchman was a Churchman, and a clergyman, you might be pretty sure, was a gentleman, if nothing else. But now he may be no better than a Dissenter."

Maryal brings us the passages that underline Lydgate's indifference to the hospital chaplain controversy. He is all for change from the old ways - in medicine. Wouldn't it make sense that he thinks society would benefit from a new Evangelic order where the clergy needed to be something more than gentlemen?

Fae, I too thought that said so much about the man when Farebrother tells him they should stay friends even if he votes in Mr. Tyke, He stressed to Lydgate his importance as a "circumnavigator". What do you suppose he meant by that?

I think Farebrothers meant that Lydgate should understand local politics and learn to maneuver around them to achieve what he considerer's his own best interests.In other words a manipulator. These two men are much alike with the same interests, very intelligent and considering most of the people in Middlemarch as less well educated which they were really. Farebrothers is "fair" when he aids Lydgate this way, telling him to vote the way he had to without constraint as he would still be his friend.

I went back and read parts again and realized that Ms Noble is Farebrothers aunt who has never married and not another sister. I will get it all straight when we finish the book hahaha faith

Just see how an author worries about her children. She could have saved the Niobe role for herself, and not applied it to Lucy Vincy, the mother of Rosamond, Fred, and two or three younger ones. I can see the author shedding tears at her desk before this is over. It's pitiful. Not really fair. Everything we have heard so far makes it sound like a good future for both of them. Both know what they want out of life. Both are in enviable positions relatively. Of course, the author has also said it of Mr Casabaun. How about Mr Bulstrode? She's very hard on him. And he, too, came to Middlemarch with a mission. To raise its standards? To bring them up to the higher standards of Mrs Farebrother's Exeter? No doubt for her Mr Bulstrode is one of those newcomers that will neither wash nor wear.

Isn't she a funny old matron. With advice on how to stay healthy: 'Wear flannel and don't overeat!' And that priceless line, replying to her son, the vicar, after singing his praises, and he wonders what the Rev Tyke's mother says in praise of her son:

'She says the truth to herself, depend upon it.'

I can't help thinking that the Evangelicals must have been the Fundamentalists of their day. It was not enough for them to be a gentleman. For Mrs Farebrother the designation seems to have had religious connotations. Of course Christian and Gentleman aren't mutually exclusive. Except, perhaps in Middlemarch. There's obviously a lot more about them that we don't know of yet.

But why should Mrs Vincy be likened to Niobe, the suffering mother. It was used at the dinner with Lydgate among the guests. Rosamond has been marvellous at the piano, impressing all the guests. Her son stands a good chance at inheriting the Firestone acres. He's obviously the old man's favorite. Everything is looking so good for the Vincys. JoanK talked about a red herring. What was that? It's so easy to miss something in this book.

Those poor Texans!

Oh, BABI, please keep you and yours safe. My thoughts will be with you!!

Yes, isn't she a hoot! There is no end to the richness of Eliot's characters. And I she may have more in store for us.

I wonder if she has a romance up her sleeve for Mr. Farebrother? He's so likable, he rouses my matchmaking instincts. But anyone who took him on would have to take all his relatives, too.

JOANP: Thanks for the information on the Evangelicals. One passage stuck in my mind:

"In general throughout the 18th and on to the 19th century, the whole of the English-speaking world is moving away from traditional religion defined by respect for authority, respect for the past, respect for the tradition, and moving toward a more individualistic, pragmatic, and practical of Christianity. ..." (site above.

Perhaps this is what bothers the Middlemarchers: respect for authority and tradition being replaced by ones own ideas. Could this be what Mr. Farebrother represents. There is a passage where he warns Lydgate of the importance and difficulty of maintaining his independence.

Maybe that's what Bulstrode has against Farebrother. F. won't dance to B's (or anyone's) tune? I'm making this up, but we'll see.

In Chap. XVII Eliot gives us an insight into the lives of Bachelors and Spinsters of that day . For the women a life so limited.................. My heart went out to Winifred Farebrother, "the Vicars oldest sister, well looking like himself, but nipped and subdued as single women are apt to be who spend their lives in uninterrupted subjection to their elders". Then she continues about her and tells how she hides bits of food and sugar cubes to give to poor children:"fostering and petting all needy creatures". At the end of the paragraph Eliot adds a statement that is so heartfelt that it seemed to be hers and not that of Winifred :"One must be poor to know the luxury of living"

This statement and others often make me feel that different parts of Eliot herself are to be found in half a dozen of her characters.

To the Question "Why does E include the earlier episode of Laure in Paris. I imagine it is to give us a more balanced view of Lydgate. He is a person who has made a mistake and thinks,therefore, that he is finished making them in the future! On the other hand E is also saying that this is a man who can be ruled by his passions. She is building suspense as to which way Lydgate(the second major character of the novel) will go in the future.

Judy

Good morning! Have you been watching the evacuation down in Texas? From one weathercast, it looks as if Babi will be on higher ground for longer than anticipated - it looks now like the storm, the rains and wind will stall for days! Our heartes are with you, Babi - with all of you and fellow Texans!

Fai - when telling Lydgate that he considers Lydgate a "circumnavigator" and advising him that he should learn to understand the local politics, are you saying that after their long chats, Farebrother is giving Lydgate a vote of confidence?

.
Oh Flora, so funny! "The author weeping at her desk for 'poor Lydgate' and 'poor Rosamond'! Do you really see her in the Niobe role, responsible for the doom of her "children?" You're scaring me, despite your light-hearted comments. How doomed do you see them in your crystal ball? Here I was worried about Fred! Why indeed did Eliot choose the reference to Niobe's children when describing Mrs. Vincy? And then there was "poor Casaubon" and the rest of us wringing our hands over "Poor Dorothea"... Are we reading a tragedy here, do you suppose?

I love it! JoanK is looking for a romantic interest for poor Mr. Farebrother. Can you imagine him, living out his years in that household with his mother, aunt and sister? Shall we focus more today on this interesting man? Eliot is letting us in on his interior through his conversations with Lydgate - and we can learn something of Lydgate here too, I think, What did you think of his detailed insect, butterfly collection? And what is Lydgate's interest in his "lab"?

Judy, the incident with Laure was so bizarre, I thought. How could Lydgate have fallen in love with an actress playing a role"? "E is also saying that this is a man who can be ruled by his passions." But consider what sort of woman what arouses his passions! Superficial beauty? Isn't that the same that arouses interest in Rosamond? Doesn't this man pride himself on being a careful scientist - making conclusions based on close observation of the "structure" of his scrutiny? Why, I'm wondering was he so surprised at Rev. Farebrother's lack of total commitment to his profession? Rev. F. can teach him an important lesson about human nature I think - if only Lydgate will listen! I agree, Judy, Eliot is building suspense as to which way Lydgate will go in the future.... I'm seeing him as rather predictable, though he doesn't know it himself.

Are we AND the author ganging up on him? Is he purposely being portrayed as a "villain"? Maybe he's just a very zealous Christian who is tired of the laxity he sees in the Middlemarch clergy and is in a position to bring improvement, i.e. a better chaplain for the hospital? JoanK - I can see Rev. Farebrother representing independence, but also see him as a lax in his duties...he seems to surprise Lydgate in his lack of real commitment to chosen "profession." I don't know why I find this difficult to understand. Do the Middlemarchers know the old ways are flawed, but don't want others coming in from the outside, making changes for them? Is that what you mean?

I don't think there is anything very sinister in the reference to Niobe. Eliot's comment is to Niobe as she was 'before her troubles' when she had many children and was very proud of them all. Isn't Eliot here simply saying that, like Niobe, Mrs Vincy was a happy and loving woman who doted on her offspring? On the other hand Eliot is very good at foreshadowing future events.

Gum, the part that seems ominous to me - I've got a Barnes and Noble endnote to Middlemarch here before me - Niobe's story ~

"In Greek mythology, Niobe's outspoken pride in her children provoked the ire of the gods Artemis and Apollot, who killed her children and turned the bereft Niobe into stone."

I'm wondering if Eliot didn't choose Niobe as an example of Mrs. Vincy's pride - for a reason? As you point out, "she's very good at foreshadowing future events." Do you think I'm reading too much into it?

Thanks for that correction. That makes sense. There must have been a time when Niobe's heart overflowed with happiness and pride. So perhaps we can give Niobe two incarnations - with the happiness reflected in Mrs Vincy, and the sorrow in the author. Pity the poor omniscient narrator, who knows what's coming. But my patience is wearing thin, with the gloomy forecasts implied in all the 'Oh, poors' Doesn't anyone get a chance at happiness in this novel? But I'm not too serious in saying that. I just see the Middlemarch magic beginning to work in the posts, as we all feel ourselves getting involed in the fates of Eliot's imaginary off-springs.

Joan's citation from her B&N edition does point out the two sides of Niobe's experience. I consulted Benet's READERS ENCYCLOPEDIA, which goes straight to the grief:

'Niobe. The personification of maternal sorrow.'

The question for me now becomes, what was on Eliot's mind when 'Niobe' first entered her mind as being useful in her storytelling. I know there are much bigger questions we should be considering, but second guessing an omniscient narrator such as George Eliot can only be possible if we can get an understanding of how her mind works and her emotional modus operandi. I hope this is useful.Flora

Fred, you begin to feel so badly, sense of dread, for this young guy.

And Mary - "plain" or "ugly" Eliot uses both words - great spirit and good sense in her humble lifestyle....By making Dorothea and Rosamund both beautiful, Mary's looks only contrast with her good sense and cheerful humor - she does not take herself too seriously - I would like to know her, wouldn't you?

Eliot's emphasis on the leading heroines (is Rosamund a heroine?) and their beauty indicates Eliot's own natural concern since she was not a woman of great beauty - rather the opposite. Imagine a brainy ugly woman in her day and the odds that were against her and Eliot's success in the end. This was a formidable woman.

This was a formidable woman. “ Yes, she was. And I’m beginning to realize that by getting us to care a lot about what happens to her characters, she is also getting us to care a lot about HER, since we see so much of her in this book.

About Farebrother’s independence: yes, I see some Middlemarchers, who live in a time when everything is changing, trying to hold on to tradition. And others welcoming change. I don’t know whether that’s the issue in the dispute about the clergymen or not.

Farebrother’s scientific collection is very typical for the time. Science was not yet a profession at which one could earn a living, but it was being carried on (especially natural science, the study of animals and plants) by dozens of people like Farebrother all over England: clergymen, or gentry living on inherited income. Farebrother would have been a recognizable “type” to Eliot’s readers. (For many examples of this in a slightly earlier time period, see Patrick O’Brien’s “Master and Commander” series.

It’s interesting that Lydgate has no interest in F’s collection. We have a number of people in this book with a great interest in learning. But each of them seems to be interested in a particular area, and not in each others.

Joanp and Joank... I think Lydgate has found a perfect champion in Vicar Farebrothers. They are suited to each other and the Vicar is pleased that Lydgate turns out to be the person his Paris friend described to him. As to Farebrothers romantic inclinations this conversation seems to be one of Eliot's "introductions" to another story line (she has so many? any way-Farebrothers continues the conversation in the study....

"Not altogether. Of course they make many things more difficult. But a good wife -- a good unworldly woman -- may really help a man, and keep him more independent. There's a parishioner of mine -- a fine fellow, but who would hardly have pulled through as he has done without his wife. Do you know the Garth's? I think they were not Peacock's patients."

"No; but there is a Miss Garth at old Fetherstones, at Lowick."

"Their daughter: an excellent girl."

"She is very quiet -- I have hardly noticed her."

"She has taken notice of you, though, depend upon it."

"I don't understand," said Lydgate; he could hardly say " Of course."

"Oh, she gauges everybody. I prepared her for confirmation -- she is a favorite of mine."

Mr. Farebrothers puffed a few moments in silence, Lydgate not caring to know more about the Garth's. At last the Vicar laid down his pipe, stretched out his legs, and turned his bright eyes with a smile cowards Lydgate, saying --

"But we Middlemarchers are not so tame as you take us to be. We have our intrigues and our parties. I am a-party man, for example, and Balustrade is another. If you vote for me you will offend Balstrade."

And then of course goes on to give him permission. The thing about this novel is there are so many many themes and one is conscience vs. self-interest...should a person inevitably do what is right, what he considers just and moral,or what gives the most benefit to the person. This is a theme predominate in everyones life including yours and mine I have no doubt. fai

The chapter describing Lydgate is good for background on the state of medicine at that time. It seems that it was evolving into a science and MM folks took their sides in that too. Also the 'business' of being a doctor - dispensing pills or not.

And Lydgate's passion/blindness for Laure in Paris exposes his youth and passions and impractical approach to women and/or relationships. You have to thank Laure for her honesty in that one, and Lydgate should have thanked her for it as well...but did he? He is very strongheaded on the one hand but his underside is very unaware and vulnerable - not a good combination - as I should know.

And we see in Faith's quote what Lydgate thinks of Mary. Farebrother realizes Mary would make a good wife for him, but he barely notices her next to the beautiful Rosamund.

Mmmmm. Mary and Farebrother? Too much of an age difference? I'm still matchmaking.

Good morning, breakfast lovers! I see that someone has finished off the kippers, but there's a whole plate of the herring left...

Flora, you are sooo right - "the Middlemarch magic is beginning to work as we all feel ourselves getting involved in the fates of Eliot's imaginary off-springs." And JoanK, yes, yes, I agree, it is impossible not to care a lot about Eliot herself, as there is so much of herself in these pages - Judy sees "different parts of Eliot HERSELF in half a dozen of her characters" and we are only beginning Book 2!

Not only are we beginning to understand and care about her characters, Eliot's insights into the human psyche is such that we are coming to recognize things about ourselves in her characters...

* "conscience vs. self-interest...should a person inevitably do what is right, what he considers just and moral,or what gives the most benefit to the person. This is a theme predominate in everyone's life including yours and mine I have no doubt." (Fai)

* "great spirit and good sense - Mary's looks only contrast with her good sense and cheerful humor - she does not take herself too seriously - I would like to know her, wouldn't you? (bbc)

*"He is very strong headed on the one hand but his underside is very unaware and vulnerable - not a good combination - as I should know." (bbc)

Coffee break...

Personally, I find much to admire in Farebrother - he seems comfortable in his skin, in the path he has chosen for himself, while recognizing that he has given in to several of his little passions (pipe smoking for example) in order to keep them under control. I feel this is going to be important here. From experience, if you are too much into self-denial, when dieting for example, you're going to slide into what you were trying to avoid. I thought about Bulstrode - and Lydgate while reading that passage. Is Farebrother counselling his young friend regarding his determination not to marry for five years, when he tells him that marriage to an unworldly woman would keep him "independent" and free to pursue his research and practice, Fai?

Wasn't it interesting - the exchange between the two men regarding Farebrother's collection, Joan? Lydgate's lack of interest...(EXCEPT for that brainless thing in the jar. Is Lydgate always going to show interest in the brainless?) He perked up at that for some reason. What was more interesting to was the swap Farebrother proposed. Lydgate could have the "anencephalous thing" - if he let Farebrother but show him his collection. He told Lydgate he must learn to be bored, did you not love that? But a good question - why did Lydgate show no scientific interest in these bugs? Isn't Lydgate interested in FEVER? Hasn't there been more than one mention of Typhus? Typhoid fever? Is it rampant now? Is it known how it spreads or is this in need of investigation at this time? I'm wondering if this collection is not going to play more of a part in the story?

Joan, for some reason I thought that Fred’s father appealed to Mr. Bulstrode on Fred’s behalf. No?

I don’t believe that Mr. B is motivated in the least by “religious zeal.” I believe him to be a phony, not at all interested in the Reverend’s spirituality” but instead motivated by greed. He wants what he wants; note how he discretly threatens the doctor to vote on Tyke’s behalf. I don’t believe he’s too used to losing. He may live sparsely indeed, but so did Scrooge. There is something ominous and sinister about this guy- unlikable.

Maryal- He wants no other clergy for the simple reason he wants control. Can he smell reform coming? Is that why he pretends to befriend Lydgate? Lydgate will be on the board and thusly will have a vote! He doesn’t believe that appointments should be made on personal likes and dislikes. I don't think Lydgate gives a hoot personally he's much more involved in lowering the dosages of the meds. Boy we could use a doc like him today. Hmmm- these two will clash, you can bet on it.

I love that Deems- Medicine IS Lydgate’s religion. Can’t you just see this visionary dissecting away, studying and looking for new innovations in Medicine? I can. He says he “wants to do great work for the world.” He appears quite smitten with Rosamund however (the little bird).

What is it about a town like Middlemarch that discourages most people from leaving and yet never opens its arms to new folk? Although Lydgate is the exception. I moved into such a town once, raised my kids there and could not wait to get the hell out when they were raised. Like the Middlemarchers these "Middletowners" let you know that you were not from their stock.

Daytripper- thank you for that definition : The personification of sorrow.” I missed it completely. I saw little Mrs. Vincy as a jolly, self indulgent mother. I’ll have to think about this. As Joan says, we are beginning to care about these characters.

What a difference between Lydgate at 27 years of age and Fred at 23!!

Fred is the spoiled oldest son of Vincy, Lydgate was an early orphan educated and on the continent - very different upbringings.

Allie and bbc- Isn't that the truth? On one hand is the serious, reticent man of medicine and on the flip side of the coin is Fred, with his bon-vivant attitude. He cares less what a profession is-- but he does care for Mary.
Do you think his interest in her might pique his desire to become more industrious?

Alf I grew up in a town that had very distinct classes like Middlemarch but we depended on "vacationers" for income to the little town. We had about 50 full time residential families. We children were more accepting of the visitors and it took till we were in middle-school before we learned to be prejudiced against the newcomers and that was too bad as that was about the time in history when the town began growing with more and more full time residents who we had learned to look askance at. When I moved from that town to a bigger town in the valley wow! now I was the 'outsider' and did that take some adjusting. It taught me to regard persons based on their actions and character rather than what they looked like, or where they were from.

I don't think Eliot is intending Middlemarch to be a pattern for the whole of Victorian society. I never see her telling us about the sociology of the rest of the country ...never mentioned yet except for Exeter as a better place to be from. I also don't see her intruding much to tell us about the changing society...unless it is expected we will understand this through her characters and she does intrude to tell or show us how she wants us to view her "babies". I personally think Eliot is a control freak and has to control what her readers think. faith

Fai, (Lake Tahoe?) - no, I don't think Eliot is painting Middlemarch as a pattern for all of Victorian society either. She's presenting a closed community of very small population. And I agree, she's not talking much about the changes beyond the city gates either, but rather the town's efforts to maintain the status quo - the way of life they have been living for as long as they can remember. I wonder why the full title of the book is not always included - Middlemarch: a study of Provincial Life. That seems to say it all.

I love the way Eliot introduces her characters...giving us just a glimpse, enough to make up our minds about them, only to describe them in depth in the next chapter. I think we know what makes Lydgate tick - and Farbrother. More so than we did at first meeting. Now we are divided about Bulstrode. I am fairly certain that we will learn more to either confirm or correct our first impressions.

And Fred, we need to learn more about Fred - loveable bon vivant, or a drifting idle, spoiled son. Why won't Mary provide him some incentive to work? He seems to need her to do that, but she will not.

Alliemae, I agree with bbc - Lydgate, at 23, an orphan was working hard... with no prospects except to make something of himself.

Andy, oh yes, Fred's father had to appeal to Bulstrode on Fred’s behalf, didn't he? He wants to appease old Featherstone so that he'll leave his estate to Fred. Didn't you wonder why Fred didn't go to Bulstrode himself if he's innocent? I suspect it was because Fred DID try to borrow money on Featherstone's estate to pay the money back to Mary's father. Notice in his letter all Bulstrode said was that he DIDN'T actually LEND Fred any money - he didn't say Fred didn't try.

I think we are all hoping that Fred will shape up, settle down, and win Mary. I'm afraid I've known too many "Fred's" to believe it. In a way, he is in the same fix as his sister -- they've both been educated to believe that they are something they aren't (gentry) and don't have the money to be, and now they don't fit anywhere. In a way, it's Mr. Vincy's fault.

We haven't seen too much of Mr' Vincy yet, except that he's willing to stand up to Bulstrode. I keep wondering what made Bulstrode change his mind after talking to his wife. (Have we met Mrs. Bulstrode yet? I don't remember her.

Yes, Middlemarch is beginning to feel a little claustrophobic to me, who have always lived in cities or suburbs. However they cam be impersonal and lonely. Do the rest of you "recognize" Middlemarch?

"And Fred, we need to learn more about Fred - loveable bon vivant, or a drifting idle, spoiled son. Why won't Mary provide him some incentive to work? He seems to need her to do that, but she will not."

I think Mary does not have the luxury to provide Fred an incentive - no matter what her feelings are. Mary is very clear to live realistically within the limits of her lifestyle. Her clarity is why I like her.

MM makes me realize how few choices many people in MM had at that time (and how many choices I am able to make.)

With all my pc problem I have gotten way behind in my reading.

GAJ: I hope your problems are over. Don't try to read all the old posts. just jump in with both feet. It doesn't matter if you say something that's already been said -- brilliant minds like company (LOL).

Isn't this the novel with a thousand threads? Ravelled up but good. Fred going to Bulstrode for a loan! I just can't see that, Joan P. But I must admit it's a bit tempting to entertain. No, Fred would know that he would never get it without, at the very least, getting a sermon from his uncle. Let's see. Mrs Bulstrode is Mr Vincy's sister, I believe. Do we know anything else about her background?

Actually, the Bulstrodes, and the Vincys are the only ones who live in the town of Middlemarch. The Brookes, the Chettams, Mr Casaubon, and the Cadwalladers, all live outside the town, in their Granges, Halls and Manors, in the country. These are the people who don't have a 'street' address. That would be declasse.

Mary strikes me as the most sympathetic character so far. She is too good for Fred. On the other hand, Fred is the only one who is good to her. The only one who looks at her. Lydgate hardly noticed her; but then his tastes and romantic feelings run to stage actresses and social butterflies. Poor Mary is not even good enough for Fred's mother, the Innkeeper's daughter. Fred does seem spoiled in a way. He does show much good sense in choosing a girl. But he's also very unsure of what to make of himself. College only made him unhappy with his lot, by running with the privileged sort. JoanK said it better.

And then there's Mr Bulstrode. Talk about control freaks. It's just too tempting to suggest it, after reading what Faith said about the author of the book being a control freak. It takes one to know one, and to write about one. I just loved the thought you suggested, Faith. GE's style is seductive and manipulative.

And ALF pointed out something interesting by suggesting that even after another 150 years, there are still some medical practices about which there is much controversy. How far we have come. But good health is almost as much a mystery as ever. And when it comes to cures, why shouldn't Mr Bulstrode be given a chance to try intoducing a 'faith' element into hospital care. It seems cynical to suggest that he is doing it just to preach to the vulnerable. Just consider how widespread that approach is even today, with many ill people convinced that the hope and faith that come with an appeal to providence, alright, the God, whose will Mr Bulstrode is determined to act on. What a worthy mission. Another St Francis, other things being equal. I believe Mr Bulstrode may be on a great penance kick.

Thanks, Deems, for the encouraging info about eye problems. It would seem to be a vitreous detachment. I just know that my eyes burn, a have a little shadow that follows me around on the page, two shadows, just think of that, and little flashes of light off to the side, the same thing, my doctor tells me, that the boxer in the ring sees in great numbers when he hits the mat.

You're right daytripper about my cynicism, but I just can not shake this suspicious feeling I have about Bulstrode. Perhaps he is on a penance kick but I have the uneasy feeling that his incorporation of "religion" into his hospital is more for monetary reasons than charitable ones. As a nurse, I was taught that physical, mental and spiritual well being are utmost for patient care. I don't see Bulstrode as giving a hoot to nourish anyone, personally. There's nothing genuine or substantial in his character. I would like to be proven wrong! ( Only then, will I give him a break.)

To those who wished me well during the evacuation, I thank you. It was impossible! After six hours of driving, we had not even cleared Houston. The sun was rising and our car air conditioning is not working. I was driving by that time, and Valerie was sick, from carbon monoxide poisoning from the traffic fumes, as it turned out. She is diabetic besides. We got off the freeway to think about this, and I decided there was no way I was going to continue. I turned around and took us both home. It took our friends 2-3 days to make what would ordinarily be a six-hour drive.

We still could not stay in our mobile home, so Valerie made some calls and arranged for us to stay with her step-brothers family in Houston, in a non-evacuation area. As it turned out, the worst of the hurricane veered to the north and east of us. We returned home today. The only damage was some tarpaulin roofing blown off the porch roof and some broken limbs.

Needless to say, we've been doing a lot of praying this week.

Babi

Oh, BABI: I'm so glad you and yours are all right. I've been watching the scenes of the traffic jams and worrying.

I hope you can have a good long rest now and relax for a bit. I'll send our magic train around with tea, scones, muffins etc. specially for you.

I am so glad you and Valerie are alright.

I'll be back in about a week. Keep the home fires burning for me until then.

Kleo

I have been thinking of you since your post about evacuating. Thank God you are safe at last. Hallelujah!

BaBi, glad you are safe at home!

Off to Daytona Beach for a 3 day/night golf excursion. I will check in Wednesday evening. Yes, teacher I have read my assignment.

I hope Pearson made it safely home. She spent the day politicing for us at SeniorNet/books. She has probably run away with the war protesters to the next venue.

Deems-- help, we've been abandoned.

Oh dear, Babi! It is so good to hear from you - especially that you are back at home, safe and sound. Wasn't it fortunate that you were able to turn around and go back? What if ...well, that doesn't matter now. All is well and you are back under your own roof. Hope Valerie is recovering from the ordeal.

Ginny Ann, have you dismantled the Trojan? If not, just read on! As Joan K says, don't be intimidated by staggering number of back posts. Basically we want to hear your thoughts on the second book, and will understand if you are unable to catch up with the posts. You too, Marni!

Some notes on my desktop regarding this week's chapters - I will share them before looking ahead at the rest of Book II..~

Yes, Middlemarch is beginning to feel A LOT claustrophobic to me,Joan! Do the Middlemarchers feel this way too, do you suppose? I'm not surprised that the accomplished Rosamund, (educated to a "ridiculous pitch") is looking for someone other than her Middlemarch beaux. If I were Rosamund, I think I'd like to get out of town - see the big city, the world, but she just seems to want to hobnob with the folks whom she feels look down on her now - (those who live in the country without a street address, as Flora describes the Brookes, the Cadwalladers, the gentry. She could do that if she were to marry Lydgate. But Lydgate doesn't plan to stay in Middlemarch more than five years, does he?

bbc - "Mary is very clear to live realistically within the limits of her lifestyle" - do you feel she is resigned to her lot? She'll have to marry someone in town, doesn't want to marry John Waule, but do you think she would be resigned to such a marriage? Personally I think she's interested in Lydgate...for no other reason except that she isn't in his league...and is not a beauty like Rosamund. I think that's way she seems so out of sorts in these scenes. I'm not so sure that what she feels for Fred is love at this point. No, she doesn't love Lydgate either, but he does interest her.

Flora, no, I don't think Fred tried to borrow money from Bulstrode directly, but I do think Fred knows that Bulstrode knows from one of his many sources that Fred TRIED to do this. I don't think Mr. Vincy knows that Fred is guilty of doing this when he goes to speak to Bulstrode. Isn't Bulstrode married to Vincy's sister?

I hadn't considered that Bulstrode might be on an atonement kick, Flora. I don't like him much, Andy - Eliot hasn't provided any reason to like him, but I am not sure that he is a social climber either. It seems those who might be influenced by a more intrusive chaplain than Rev. Farebrother would be the lower classes.

Will you check through your underlined parts and be sure we have covered everything before we move on? Any favorite passages you would like to share?

I can't wait to see if Lydgate votes for his new friend, Farebrother, now that he knows him better - or will he vote for change - for Bulstrode's man, Mr. Tyke. (Hasn't Lydgate already assured Bulstrode he will vote for Tyke?)

Kleo, Andy, enjoy your time out. Will be looking for you down the road...

Welcome back, Babi. I'm so glad you turned around. I was watching the evacuation on Channel 2 Houston on the internet and that traffic jam was something else. Creeping along at three miles per hour, a lot of people running out of gas, not using air conditioning because it uses more gas. What a NIGHTMARE. You made the right choice.

Also I am happy to hear that there was little damage to your home. And I hope for the sake of everyone in the gulf coast and Florida that this hurricane season which isn't officially over until Nov. 30 is over in terms of anything hitting the mainland.

As for Middlemarch, I'm reasonably certain that the "power" Bulstrode desires is religious and not monetary. He's already a banker.

He wants to win souls to the RIGHT way of worshipping and believing. I think these people, no matter how well intentioned, are always dangerous. He's a zealot, I'm guessing, and I can usually pick them out, in books or in real life. I have a couple in my family. My father the Congregational minister and my father-in-law, the Methodist minister, both of "liberal persuasion," are rolling in their graves.

What's with Andy the golfer who keeps disappearing calling out for help?

HI, Joan P. After you've had a chance to rest, tell us about the Book Festival. I saw McCullough on TV but missed you.

Maryal

So very glad to read that you are home, and safe, and ok!

Deems I agree with your evaluation of Mr. Bulstrode. He is pious to a fault plus he is stingy with his wealth. But he sure does want to share his religious views.

Joanp- Mrs. B is Mr. Vince's sister so they V and B are brothers in law. This was hard to work out ...

I am glad the hurricane was not as bad as first thought and that so far we are hearing stories of safe returns. Still it must have been a harrowing week in Texas and of course poor Louisiana got it again.

I

...before we go on to next segment...

Re: Bulstrode: He may be a zealot but one who doesn't seem to mind using a sort of moral or spiritual (or whatever he may consider it...probably looking after the 'spiritual good' of others) blackmail by keeping track of their debts and foibles and then following up on their religiosity and church attendance.

Re: The difference in Lydgate's and Dorothea's ideas of marriage: I was more impressed by the differences in Lydgate's and Rosamond's differences. Rosamond-ASAP; Lydgate-not for at least five years. Rosamond-to climb socially; Lydgate-to have a pretty and pleasant little someone to adorn his home much like one does with music, pretty flowers and fine pictures.

Their similarities: each has made up a picture in their minds of what type of person they would like to marry and sees the other as fitting in, Rosamond more surely than Lydgate, rather than finding a person and getting to know them and then deciding if they have the feelings and attitudes of commitment and sharing which a good marriage demands.

We may be very surprised at who is able to 'make Lydgate real' in the Velveteen Rabbit sense of the word and as a result find real love.

I think Lydgate is fairly inflexible and doesn't (so far) see further than his commitment to his own ideas about medicine. It might not serve him that he doesn't recognize that in a community such as this all the parts need to at least see the benefit of trying to fit together.

Now, should he decide to 'let each side think he is giving each of them what they want' and be found out to be doing this just to get the hospital and his work on his predetmined track...then there could be trouble I think.

So far, in reading this novel, the part I enjoyed the most is in this segment. It starts (in my edition of the book) on page 140 where the narrator says, "Such was Lydgate's plan of his future: to do good small work for Middlemarch, and great work for the world," etc. and ends with "...it was to be feared that neither biology nor schemes of reform would lift him above the vulgarity of feeling that there would be an incompatibility in his furniture not being of the best." (right before the author gets into the story of Madame Laure...)

Nothing religious zealots do would surprise me.

Two quotes from the book, about Lydgate, which I had noted:

In Chapter XIII, page 117 of the B&N edition, “Mr. Bulstrode perhaps liked him [Lydgate] the better for the difference between them in pitch and manners; he certainly like him the better, as Rosamond did, for being a stranger in Middlemarch. One can begin so many things with a new person! --- even begin to be a better man.”

I wonder if Mr. Bulstrode’s interactions with Mr. Lydgate are going to cause a change in Bulstode’s character, or at least in his actions? I am looking forward to reading about the interactions of these two characters after reading that.

In Chapter XV, page 141 of the B&N edition, “Such was Lydgate’s plan of his future: to do good small work for Middlemarch, and great work for the world.”

Two things came to my mind with this quote. First, it reminds me of our previous discussion on the author trying to expose the readers of Middlemarch to ideas of the world outside of their own towns. Second, I couldn’t help but think of, “One small step for man, one giant leap for mankind,” (You know, the phrase when the first man stepped on the moon; I probably have the quote slightly off. LOL). Is Lydgate really going to do something that drastic and different?!? I can’t wait to see how he shakes up the town of Middlemarch!

Hello, Babi. Nice to see you back where you belong. And you other posters who we haven't seen for a while, welcome back. You're back in time to tell us how you all feel about Mr Bulstrode. Haven't we all known people like him, who want to impose their beliefs on the rest of us. What is this man up to? Anything I may have said to the contrary notwithstanding, I agree with you Andy, he does seem detestable. He definitely has to be watched. He seems to have something on everybody. That type. On the other hand, he does seem to want to do good with his new hospital. And if he's the guy in charge, shouldn't he be allowed to do it his way?

But those strong religious feelings. Is he out to prove something? Is he trying to convert the whole community to his way of believing, or is he trying to convince himself about his state of grace. Wherever the author intends to take him in the MM story, I believe, from what I'm getting to know about her, that with Mr Bulstrode she is drawing on her own experience of the very religious girl she was through her teens. She left these strong convictions behind as she matured, but it obviously left her with an understanding of and for the severe religious life. The following is quoted from the Oxford Reader's Companion to George Eliot. I found it by chance browsing among the books at my own 'Charing Cross' booksellers. The article on 'evangelicalism' is by V. Cunningham:

'George Eliot was early on a characteristic and fervent evangelical Anglican - Calvinist in theology, serious in every practical way, self-scrutinizing as to all thought and behaviour, devoted to reading the Bible (measuring her life by it, finding constant tropes in it to figure her life by) and to perusing volumes of Church history, biblical exegesis, and pietistic guides to living. She was in every way 'methodistical', the sneering epithet constantly directed at evangelicals in her fiction by worldlier criticsl....And her revulsion from Christianity at the end of 1841 was a revulsion from the evangelical forms of her faith. It was evangelicalism that particularly obsessed her as a post-Christian critic and novelist...(witness) MIDDLEMARCH, with Dorothea Brooke, the high-minded evangelical Anglican, and banker Nicholas Bulstrode, the less high-minded corrupt one. Here indeed are the real dramas of evangelical individuals and communities.'

Perhaps in Mr Bulstrode, GE is again grinding an axe of her own. What follows might be construed as spoiling. Prof Cunningham goes on to say, in the same article:

'The drift of George Eliot's scepticism and her hostility to everything evangelical is clear. Mrs Poyser's rebuking vision (in ADAM BEDE) of Dinah Morris getting her own way by following religious feelings or leadings, segues acutely into the case of Bulstrode, easily construing his own crooked wishes and greeds as God's will for his life. And yet even Bulstrode is not presented as some merely vulgar hypocrite to be dismissed out of hand in Dickensian style. The story of his long fall from grace, his Faustian moral decline, is one of the great fictional portraits of moral corruption. George Eliot's sympathies as a presenter of character are with the selves whose evangelical selfhood she wants to reclaim, rewrite, redefine. Bulstrode is too bad to be redeemable, but Dorothea is not.'

End of quote. I hope this doesn't spoil the efforts of anyone trying to figure out this strange character for herself...

Day Tripper, your post doesn’t spoil anything for me because I was already convinced that B. was a … well, not really a good person. He thinks the most important thing about the hospital is the control he can exert over the souls of others, the care of their physical persons ranking a poor second in his estimation. What you share with us concerning Eliot’s early evangelicalism suggests she discovered that the extremely zealous were tormentors rather than saviors. She worked and reasoned her way through her pietistic, evangelical experiences, eventually discovering how impossible, illogical, and, at times cruel it was to assume you had the only “truth” and those who disagreed with you were going to hell. Bulstrode’s efforts aren’t going to do good for anybody else, although I grant that at this point he may not realize this, but his stringency where Fred and Vincy are concerned mark him as judgmental and cruel. I can’t find anything positive in one so rigid and so distracted from the real needs of mortals. In his case, I wonder what his unstated motives are. I’m sure we’ll find out.
Faith points to a theme, “…should a person inevitably do what is right, what he considers just and moral, or what gives the most benefit to the person.” That is a conundrum for the pietistic, isn’t it? Which characters know or will discover that what gives the most benefit is what is just and moral?
JoanP, you asked me “…are Dorothy and Lydgate typical young people? Yes, most think of the possibilities for the future, but do they think about contributions they can make to society? I don't see that in Middlemarch, do you? The young seem to be waiting for something to happen that will improve their own situations. Are they thinking about anything beyond that?”
I agree, most of the young Middlemarchers don’t seem to be concerned with the needs of others, but then we can’t know for sure about all of them yet. Dorothea and Lydgate do seem atypical, but Sir James Chettham seemed interested in building better housing for the workers. He was partly motivated by Dorothea’s interest, but I think he had begun the project before they began planning together…?

Lydgate and Rosamond's relationship (if it is a relationship?) is based on the preconceptions of beauty and desirability each had already formed. Rosamond knows what kind of person she needs to rescue her from the Middlemarch confinement, and she thinks Lydgate is that kind of person: dashing, intellectual, and what today would be percieved as "upwardly mobile." Just what she needs! He wants (eventually) a beautiful, poised and talented woman, as comforting as a beautiful strain of (background!) music and unintrusive as far as his own inner life and passionate interests are concerned. Each has little evidence that the other really will meet their needs and expectations.
Dorothea is drawn to what she perceives as Casaubon's goodness and brilliance. She thinks she can help him in what she perceives as worthy and noble enterprise: his reading and research. He is drawn to the idea of this lovely, intelligent woman bringing a lighter element into his plodding existence. He thinks she may be able to offer him some humble assistance, as long as she doesn't get in the way. Each man wants to be sure that the female won't get in the way!
The two couples share the tendency to believe they know people they reallly don't. The only one not acting or thinking about the possible union purely out of personal interest is Dorothea, and even she wants the opportunity to learn, .... why shouldn't she?
JoanP, not up early... still up late!

ALLIEMAE: “ spiritual blackmail” is the right term for Bulstrode. No wonder some people in the town are opposed to him. I wonder if his protégé, Mr. Tyke, does the same thing? Probably not – Bulstrode wants to be chief “blackmailer”.

In a way he’s doing the same thing as Mr. Featherstone – using his money to keep people dancing to his tune. But Featherstone’s tune isn’t spiritual, it’s dancing attendance on the sick old man.

Rosamund and Lydgate on marriage: “Rosamond-ASAP; Lydgate-not for at least five years. Rosamond-to climb socially; Lydgate-to have a pretty and pleasant little someone to adorn his home much like one does with music, pretty flowers and fine pictures. “ That hits the nail on the head. Do you think they really know each other at all? Or consider each other’s problems at all? Is the process of courtship really as poor at preparing people for marriage as Eliot portrays it?

So you think Lydgate is headed for trouble by trying to give everyone something? We’ll see. I’m also worried by how oblivious L. seems to the effect of his words on others. He seems to have a strong opinion on everything, and say it, no matter whether it might insult one of his hearers or not. I’m afraid he’s making more enemies than friends.

LAURA: (Bulstrode) certainly like(d Lydgate).. the better, as Rosamond did, for being a stranger in Middlemarch. One can begin so many things with a new person! --- even begin to be a better man.” That’s really interesting. A better man than what? Is Eliot foreshadowing something here? Like JO, I wonder what his unstated motives are.

I, also, am hoping Lydgate can do great things.

DAY TRIPPER: “Mr Bulstrode she is drawing on her own experience of the very religious girl she was through her teens. She left these strong convictions behind as she matured, but it obviously left her with an understanding of and for the severe religious life”

Yes, it did. And I also think I see some anger toward it. We haven’t seen a sympathetic description of religious faith, yet.

The article that you site mentions that she constantly calls evangelical Christianity “'methodistical” as we’ve noticed. It’s not clear whether this is her term or common usage. JO: “I agree, most of the young Middlemarchers don’t seem to be concerned with the needs of others, but then we can’t know for sure about all of them yet. Dorothea and Lydgate do seem atypical,” I agree, that in most times and places, most young people are concerned with their own lives and not with the needs of others. But I think it’s also true that there are always some in each generation who do want to change the world for the better in ways big or small, and when that impulse is there, it’s there at a young age. So D. And L. ARE typical, not of the majority, but of a minority who exist in every generation.

I agree that Dorothea is the only one of the four “lovers” who is thinking of anyone but themselves. Even here, there’s an element of selfishness. Since she enjoys “giving up” i.e. giving up her life to service of Casaubon.

(You’re up late, but I’m up even later)

GOOD MORNING. Are you ready for the next section? We will see how the vote on the clergy comes out. And for us who are getting claustrophobic in Middlemarch, we will visit Rome with Mr. and Mrs. Casaubon.

JoanK, you were here FIRST this morning... Do you catch any worms at 12:30 a.m.?

Good morning everyone else!

Such insightful posts here yesterday, I feel we are well-prepared to enter the board room and learn how the Middlemarchers will vote for the chaplain for the new hospital. It seems such a small issue to cause so much controversy, doesn't it? What are the implications if Bulstrode's man wins or loses? We all seem to agree in our assessment of this guy, (from the little we have been allowed to see of him.)

"the "power" Bulstrode desires is religious and not monetary I think these people, no matter how well intentioned, are always dangerous.(Maryal)"

"Bulstrode: He may be a zealot but one who doesn't seem to mind using a sort of moral or spiritual blackmail." (Alliemae)

"He is pious to a fault plus he is stingy with his wealth. But he sure does want to share his religious views." (Fai)

"He definitely has to be watched. Is he trying to convert the whole community to his way of believing, or is he trying to convince himself about his state of grace. " (Flora)

"Bulstrode’s efforts aren’t going to do good for anybody else ...but his stringency where Fred and Vincy are concerned mark him as judgmental and cruel." (Jo)

And now that we've seen the admiration and friendship forming between Farebrother and Lydgate, what will Lydgate do when forced to cast his vote one way or another? This seems to be something he doesn't really want to think about, as it has no part in his grand plan. Unanticipated, don't you think?

"Such was Lydgate's plan of his future: to do good small work for Middlemarch, and great work for the world." (Alliemae)

"Is Lydgate really going to do something that drastic and different?!(Laura)

I’m also worried by how oblivious L. seems to the effect of his words on others. He seems to have a strong opinion on everything, and say it, no matter whether it might insult one of his hearers or not. I’m afraid he’s making more enemies than friends." (JoanK)

Jo and Faith speak of an important theme to watch for in the coming pages -

“…should a person inevitably do what is right, what he considers just and moral, or what gives the most benefit to the person.” "Which characters know or will discover that what gives the most benefit is what is just and moral?"

It just occurs to me - as I put thoughts from your posts together - Do you think that both Lydgate AND Bulstrode just might have the same goal? - "To do good small work for Middlemarch, and great work for the world?" Maybe Laura is on to something... "Can Mr. Bulstrode’s interactions with Mr. Lydgate cause a change in Bulstode’s character, or at least in his actions?" Wasn't there a glimmer of hope when we were told that Vincy had more than once held a mirror to Bulstrode's actions...and hadn't B. recoiled at what he saw?

"The two couples (Rosamund/Lydgate, Dorothea/Casaubon) share the tendency to believe they know people they really don't" It seems to me that there are many characters in this book who think they know themselves, who think they know one another, but really don't. We get to enter the privacy of the honeymoon suite in the coming chapters. Did you expect Dorothea and Casaubon to learn so much about one another so soon? I thought that usually happened AFTER the honeymoon magic wore off.

Let's do the committee room vote first before we get ourselves involved in the "sexier" honeymoon scenes! Looking forward to a week of fireworks and high drama in here!

...the tracks are laid already - his non-thrill in the courtship period does not bode well...(psychiological reasons omitted)...

Thanks for that invitation, JoanP.

And isn't that just what Will Ladislaw does for Dorothea, to lift her spirits? Near the beginning of Ch 22. It seems appropriate to mention it now, before returning to the beginning of this weeks section:

" A sense of contributing to form the world's opinion makes conversation particularly cheerful."

How very strange that Ladislaw should turn Dorothea on. To the point where even Mr Casaubon takes 'pride in his young wife, who spoke better than most women, as indeed he had perceived in choosing her.'

Meanwhile, back in the boardroom - there's so much here to catch ones interest. Local politics. Professional jealousies. What a wonderful line regarding the feelings between Dr Sprague and Dr Minchin:

'They enjoyed about equally the mysterious privilege of medical reputation, and concealed with much etiquette their contempt for each other's skill.'

Reluctantly, Dr Lydgate finds himself drawn into local and professional issues. Just the sort of thing he tried to avoid by not setting up a medical practice in London. In the end he seems almost relieved to find an excuse to vote for Mr Tyke. And then, also, 'there was a pitiable infirmity of will in Mr Farebrother.'

Regarding Eliot's style. There are so many underlined statements that are worthy of comment, as Joan P pointed out a few posts ago. I'm sure we all have our favorites. Very often it almost seems like a stray thought that was running through the author's mind. Fine observations on life and morals and such, on poetry and art. And of course on the religious life. This is a very worthy novel, full of complex characters as we can see. Still there are times when they seem to serve as mouthpieces for their creator's philosophy for everything, the things that preocuppied her for a lifetime.

Daytripper says that Dr. L. finds himself drawn into local politics. Just what he hoped to avoid by not setting up practice in London. That is GEs main point throughout. Middlemarch is a microcosmos of the larger city and England as a whole. All the politics and religous intrigue is found in this small town . All people who are of importance will get caught up in local politics. Lydgate has pangs of concious but chooses Tyke to gain influence with Bulstrode. The latter is still somewhat of a mystery to me. I wonder if he is meant to be the Villain of the book or if we have not yet seen all facets of his character.

Will this effect Lydgates future in the town? Of course it will. The author wouldn't have made such a fuss over the whole process if it wasn't seting us up for future toil and trouble(bubble,bubble).Oh, how she builds up the suspense.

Chapter xx is my favorite of this book so far. WE knew that Causabon and Dorothea were a really bad match from the get-go. But GE puts it so elegantly:(re Causabon)"With his taper stuck before him he forgot the absence of windows, and in bitter manuscript remarks on other men's notions about the solar deities,HE HAD BECOME INDIFFERENT TO THE SUNLIGHT."

Who could describe this fuddy-duddy more clearly?

Judy

It seems everyone on the board really thought Farebrothers should have the chaplaincy and the 40 lbs as he had been doing a very good job gratis for some time still Mr. Bulstrode won out. Lydgate might not have voted as he did had he not been goaded by the other Dr saying he was "bound" to Bulstode's vote and he wanted to prove he voted his conscience and even if others accused him he would still vote for Tyke.

quote from chapter 18 " So the Rev. Walter Tyke became chaplain to the Infirmary, and Lydgate continued to work with Mr. Bulstrode. He was really uncertain whether Tyke were not the more suitable candidate, and yet his consciousness told him that if he had been quite free from indirect bias he should have voted for Mr. Farebrothers. The affair of the chaplaincy remained a sore point in his memory as a case in which this petty medium of Middlemarch had been too strong for him. How could a man be satisfied with a decision between such alternatives and under such circumstances? No more than he can be satisfied with his hat, which he has chosen from among such shapes as the resources of the age offer him, wearing it at best with a resignation which is chiefly supported by comparison. "

Mr. Lydgate doesnt even consider consciencly that his vote was to stay in good with Balstrode but deep down he still feels the guilt. Now I need to catch up on some more reading.fai

My thanks to all for the kind words and warm welcome home. Now I have some catching up to do. Ch. XVIII-XXII are waiting for me. See you all later.

Babi

just goes to show us how political such a small matter as the appointment of a chaplain for the new hospital can be. I think that Bulstrode promotes Mr. Tyke for several reasons. First, he is doctrinally in line with Bulstrode's evangelical persuasion and second because Farebrother is known to play cards for money. Bulstrode would disapprove of gambling in any form just as he disapproves of eating heartily and (no doubt) drinking.

It disappoints me that Lydgate went along with Bulstrode essentially out of pique. He is insulted when one of the others says that no doubt Lydgate will go along with Bulstrode; so he declares that the fact that Bulstrode is promoting Mr. Tyke won't prevent him from voting for him. No wonder he is a little ashamed of himself. He is acting like a boy, or maybe I should say like the idealistic boy he is.

Lydgate has lots of learning in medicine--and some lofty goals--but he doesn't know much about human nature. It was more than a little naive of him to think that Middlemarch would be without political and medical controversy.

Maryal

I just want to tell you all that I am sorry that I cannot participate in tthis discussion. I can't read the book. My eyes are hurting to much. I can't even read the discussion and keep up with that because of my eyes. I guess I am going to have to see my eye doctor again. I was not supposed to see him again until Spring but I just cannot use my eyes without alot of pain.

I am really sorry.

Joan Grimes

JOANP: it was 3:30 am, not 12:30 and no, I didn’t catch anything..

DAY TRIPPER “'They enjoyed about equally the mysterious privilege of medical reputation, and concealed with much etiquette their contempt for each other's skill.'

Lovely colleague relations here. Does anyone else feel that there are too many doctors already for a small community. Just as there seem to be way too many clergymen. Maybe that’s the source of some of this infighting and backbiting.

“there are times when they seem to serve as mouthpieces for their creator's philosophy for everything, the things that preoccupied her for a lifetime”.

I feel that too. She’s getting a lot off her chest.

JUDY: “Dr. L. finds himself drawn into local politics. Just what he hoped to avoid by not setting up practice in London That is GEs main point throughout. Middlemarch is a microcosmos of the larger city and England as a whole. All the politics and religious intrigue is found in this small town “

That’s a very important point. I wonder if it isn’t worse in a small town, since in a city there are more choices of social circle.

(Casaubon) “ HAD BECOME INDIFFERENT TO THE SUNLIGHT." Yes, that’s exactly right. And he takes the lack of sunlight with him. Wherever he is seems gloomy. (Who was that character in Lil Abner who had a black cloud over his head? Or was it in Peanuts.

FAITH: “How could a man be satisfied with a decision between such alternatives and under such circumstances?” Yes, how could he? What would you have done?

JOANG: I'm so sorry. Take good care of yourself, and come back when you can. Meanwhile, keep us updated.

That's just a shame about your eyes, Joan. I hope your doctor helps you quickly.

Babi, I'm so glad you're back home safe and sound.

I've caught up on postings (zoomed through them) since my return from a terrific vacation to the northwest. I had to catch up on my Latin homework and job stuff first. Now, I just have to quickly review the chapters we're now discussing (I read them last month) and I'll jump in where I can.

Guess what I passed in the historic section of Seattle? The Crumpet Shop! Didn't have a chance to go in, but of course I thought of our book club! And when we visited Victoria, B.C., we visited the Empress Hotel to try to have tea. But, the timing wasn't right. Oh, well!

Good to read the wonderful postings.

Marni

Before it recedes in memory, I think it's worth noting Farebrother's remarks to Lydgatre at the end of Chapter 17 about Bulstrode and the coming vote:
"You will not offend me, you know (by voting for Tyke)." I don't translate my own convenience into other people's duties. ... I don't like the set he belongs to (Bulstrode): they are a narrow ignorant set, and do more to make their neighbours uncomfortable than to make them better. ...they really look on the rest of mankind as a doomed carcase which is to nourish them for heaven."
A vulturish image. He seems to have Bulstrode's number.
Lydgate was destined to cast that vote in chapter 18, but he was sandbagged before he made the conscious decision to do so. He hated the position he was in, but he hated losing the opportunities the alliance with Bulstrode offered even more, so there was no way he was going to go by his personal preference for Fairbrother. Too bad! He was only 27 at the time, and I remember being that age, believe it or not. It would have been hard to take a public position that would prevent me from getting something I very badly wanted, and that's the truth. Ah, youth! Glad it's over, in some ways.
That meeting provided a great presentation of characters. Eliot takes the opportunity to say that any medical man who professed very definite religious views or who was given to prayer would have caused the Middlemarchers to presume he hadn't much medical skill. She suggests that there was a lingering superstition that cleverness went with evil, and they wanted their physicians to be clever.
Love the description of Dr. Sprauge: "...superflouously tall; his trousers got creased at the knees, and showed an excess of boot at a time when straps seemed necessary to any dignity of bearing; you heard him go in and out, and up and own, as if he had come to see after the roofing. In short, he had weight, and might be expected to grapple with a disease and throw it...." Eliot uses physical description to suggest character: Sprague is frank, hearty and fearless of Bulstrode's opinions and power.

How can the timing not be right for tea? Was it the English High Tea time that you wanted to enjoy? That is a bit of England up there in Victoria, BC, isn't it?

The board is divided down the middle on Mr Bulstrode's choice of a chaplain for the infirmary. Both candidates are good men in the opinion of most, despite being very different. Unfortunately the reader has not been given a chance to get to know Mr Tyke. Otherwise with Mr Farebrother. We've been told that he is 'a likeable man: sweet-tempered, ready-witted, frank, without grins of suppressed bitterness or other conversational flavors which make half of us an affliction to our friends. Lydgate liked him heartily, and wished for his friendship.' Isn't that loading the dice for poor Dr Lydgate.

His initiation into small-town politics becomes a conscience thing with him. Three successive shaving sessions are taken up with meditating on the upcoming vote. It's the choices forced on him that make him wince.

Voting for Farebrother will put him on bad terms with Bulstrode.

Voting for Tyke will mean letting down Farebrother, with whom he has struck up a friendship.

Voting for Tyke seems too 'convenient', a currying of favor with Bulstrode, and thus a loss of moral independence for himself.

Bulstrode has put pressure on certain people to get the chaplaincy for Tyke. It's interesting to speculate on the pressures that Mr B uses. Do his supporters all owe him something, For example did he get the mayor's chair for Mr Vincy. They seem to be together on other things as well. What spiritual IOU does he get from Tyke if he B gets the chaplaincy for him. I can't see Mr B doing anything without an ulterior motive. And now Dr Lydgate has hitched his wagon to Bulstrodes fortunes, or is in danger of doing so. He doesn't seem to be looked on favorably by the other medical people in MM.

What a delight that every post in this discussion has a fine conversational flavor, free of the suppressed bitterness that our author deplores. Dear friends, do let me know if reading anything of mine begins to seem an affliction...

I know I don't always get it right.

Lydgate seems to be experiencing the growing pains of reality and a good case of the 'what ifs' or the 'yabuts'.

He likes Farebrother but wants his own future in Middlemarch, ergo Tyke (i.e. Bulstrode)...

Farebrother has less time than Tyke but would, in L's opinion, be better suited to hospital chaplaincy, could use the money whereas Tyke doesn't seem to really need the money but has more time. But Farebrother is also a gambler--does he gamble because he needs the money, or does he need the money because he gambles? And the prevailing bottom line is "no Tyke-->no Bulstrode-->no hospital-->no dream come true, which makes Lydgate very irritable about having to cowtow to "...this trivial Middlemarch business," therefore feeling, himself, for sale.

I am still in the middle of this week’s reading, but wanted to jump in with my thoughts on the vote in Chapter XVIII.

I felt bad for Lydgate as I read this chapter. To him, this was “trivial Middlemarch business (pg. 169 B&N ed.),” yet “this petty medium of Middlemarch had been too strong for him (pg. 177 B&N ed.).” I felt very conflicted with him. I also found it very interesting that the other voters assumed he would vote with Bulstrode. These two examples prove what a strong informal communication network there is in Middlemarch (notice I didn’t use the word gossip). I am still anxious to see how this relationship between Bulstrode and Lydgate plays out.

There was a quote that talks about how the town ties a doctor’s religious beliefs to his medical skill: (Page 172 B&N edition) “At all events, it is certain that if any medical man had come to Middlemarch with the reputation of having very definite religious views, of being given to prayer, and of otherwise showing an active piety, there would have been a general presumption against his medical skill.” I think I can understand how religion and medicine would be tied together, so to speak. I think both professions were quite mysterious to the average person. Certainly, people looked to both religion and medicine for comfort. Moreover, many believed Divine Intervention can cure illness. I can’t help but think this is a bit of foreshadowing.

Does anyone have any ideas about how the quote at the beginning of Chapter XIX ties into the context of the chapter?

Good morning, crumpet-lovers! Marni, I'm saving two for you in case you miss the morning platter again! JoanG, dang! Yes, please do go back to that eyeman. We will surely miss you! And Babi, hopefully your reading will blot out that nightmarish evacuation scene... ************************************************* Many interesting posts in here yesterday regarding that vote for chaplain of the new hospital...the whole town got into the act. "All people who are of importance will get caught up in local politics." Judy, was there anyone representing the gentry at this meeting - who voted for Farebrother? What did you make of Mr. Brooke's vote? If he is interested in "standing for Middlemarch" in Parliament, does he have to have backing from the town? I guess I don't understand the requirements for that. Is that why he voted Mr. Tyke?

I found it interesting that the vote was tie until Lydgate voted. I was very disappointed in him too, Maryal - though not surprised. I don't think he cared one way or another about the issue. Wasn't the whole point that Lydgate, a scientist saw NO need for a chaplain, well, for a preacher in the hospital, Laura? That he saw NO need for religion in medicine? If he did have any thoughts on the subject, I think he (and the author) would agree with the lawyer, Frank Hawley-

"Sick people can't bear so much praying and preaching. And that methodistical sort of religion is bad for the spirits -- bad for the inside."

Jo reminds us of Farebrother's description of Bulstrode/Tyke's ilk - "they do more to make their neighbors uncomfortable than to make them better" But if he did agree with Hawley, why did he vote the way he did? Remember he came late to the meeting? Do you think maybe he missed hearing the arguments and would have voted differently if he had heard how the townspeople felt? Would he have cared? I'm not clear about who his patients will be? Does he hope to doctor the town AND the gentry?

Do you believe Lydgate chose Tyke to gain influence with Bulstrode, as Judy does?

Do you believe he was trying to prove "he voted his conscience and even if others accused him he would still vote for Tyke" - as Fai does? "Out of pique" as Maryal puts it?

Or was it the "pitiable infirmity of will in Mr Farebrother" that Flora mentions. (What was this "infirmity" as you see it?)

"It would have been hard to take a public position that would prevent me from getting something I very badly wanted"...Jo, do you see Lydgate having any alternative? Couldn't he have abstained somehow? WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE IN HIS SITUATION? Wasn't it clever of Eliot to make him the tie-breaker, Flora? Do his choices make him "wince" or how he voted?

"no Tyke-->no Bulstrode-->no hospital-->no dream come true, which makes Lydgate very irritable about having to cowtow to "...this trivial Middlemarch business," In a nutshell, Alliemae! Do you predict happiness in Middlemarch down the road Lydgate has chosen for himself?

JoanK, a very interesting comment on the number of clergymen and doctors in this town! Can it be because there are so few "acceptable" professions for the younger sons of the gentry? Lydgate seems to move with this gentrified crowd, doesn't he? Farebrother is one of them, but certainly not Bulstrode. Now that Lydgate has aligned himself with Bulstrode, I have to say that I too have a sense of foreboding, Laura. His choice is a foreshadowing of his future in Middlemarch. To me, the irony is that his practice in medicine is only one part, one small part of his grand plan.

ps. Laura, even with the translation before me, I'm still working on that epigram!

JOAN GRIMES--So sorry about your eyes. Do go to the doctor. They shouldn't hurt like this.

JO--I loved the description of Dr. Sprauge too! : "...superflouously tall; his trousers got creased at the knees, and showed an excess of boot at a time when straps seemed necessary to any dignity of bearing; you heard him go in and out, and up and own, as if he had come to see after the roofing. In short, he had weight, and might be expected to grapple with a disease and throw it...."

Having been superflouously tall all my life, I got a big chuckle out of how others see my height, especially those who are vertically challenged!

DAYTRIPPER--What a wonderful question you ask, "Bulstrode has put pressure on certain people to get the chaplaincy for Tyke. It's interesting to speculate on the pressures that Mr B uses. Do his supporters all owe him something, For example did he get the mayor's chair for Mr Vincy."

I was wondering something similar about Mr. Brooks, he who wavers this way and wavers that--he comes in and votes for Mr. Tyke, and Bulstrode assures everyone that he has been fully informed about the two men's credentials. Bulstrode doesn't want to risk any rehashing of the debate because he might lose--or rather "His man" might lose.

ALLIEMAE--I felt a little sorry for Lydgate too, but I didn't get the sense that he wouldn't have a job in the hospital rather than he thought he might not get what he requested in the future from Bulstrode if he didn't go along with him.

LAURA D--Yes, there is a strong informal network in Middlemarch, isn't there? Good point. Poor Lydgate thought he was escaping from politics and here he is without his notes on who stands where and why.

JOAN K--THere are every so many doctors and clergymen in Middlemarch, aren't there? I more or less understand why so many clergy since there is a whole hierarchy in the clergy and some of these clergy, like Mr. Tyke, are young and are attached to someone higher up, but the plethora of doctors, wow.

JOAN P--Thank you for the crumpets. I've never had a crumpet so best I try one here before embarrassing myself in public.

And finally, one quote I grabbed from the text about Mr. Tyke:

Nobody had anything to say against Mr Tyke, except that they could not bear him, and suspected him of cant.

Mr. Tyke sounds like someone who you would especially not like if you were in the hospital!

Maryal

Re: "Or was it the "pitiable infirmity of will in Mr Farebrother" that Flora mentions. (What was this "infirmity" as you see it?)"

I think this is it - an important reason why Lydgate did not vote for Mr. Farebrother. Lydgate is somewhat of a prude. Although he likes Farebrother, he quite despises Farebrother's gambling and seems to think Farebrother can't control himself - is weak-willed. Lydgate does not have a great understanding of human nature.

I think the author emphasizes this in the way she ends chapter 18 with this line. (I don't see Flora saying it at this place in the book.)

Marni, I think this could be important..."Lydgate does not have a great understanding of human nature." He is appalled that Farebrother does not have total committment to his vocation. He doesn't understand the importance of having an outlet for one's little passions, before they overwhelm.

the end of Chapter 18 is great...

Daytripper: First - For me there's no affliction in reading anyone's posts in this discussion - my first with Seniornet - I, too,find everyone is contributing in a very friendly manner and am enjoying reading the varied comments.

Your comments on Eliot's intrusions -'There are times when they serve as mouthpieces for their creator's philosophy for everything, the things that preoccupied her for a lifetime'

I tend to agree with that and with JoanK's 'She's getting a lot off her chest'

Sometimes I think her comments are a result of whatever she and Lewes had been discussing over the dinner table! Seriously though, her intrusions all seem to be there for a purpose which may not always be obvious at first reading (or 2nd or 3rd for me) This quote from David Daiches is rather to the point and puts her comments into a better perspective I think.

"The test of the successful presence of the author in a novel is simply the way it works...in Middlemarch, with one or two minor exceptions,she is wholly successful in weaving author's comments in and out of the action with sufficient tact and relevance to achieve an even-textured whole. The tone of her comments keeps changing - they can be ironical, quizzical, compassionate or straightforwardly moral. The direct moral comment is the kind least acceptable to the modern reader. But it is often either a link comment, showing the reader how to connect different elements in the novel and also how to connect the novel with his own life and indeed with life in general, or an anticipatory comment pointing forward to what the novel itself is to reveal with all the conviction of fully realised art'.David Daiches "George Eliot Middlemarch" (Edward Arnold Publishers 1973) p25

On the chaplaincy vote - for me this scene shows quite clearly that Lydgate hasn't entered into the life of MM as yet. The 'trivial MM business' is exemplified by the business of the committee which was not important to him in itself but only insofar as the outcome would affect him personally. This is in contrast to Brooke, for instance, for whom any business affecting MM is important for its own sake. It is interesting too that Lydgate was late for the meeting and arrived after the discussion on the chaplaincy and even after they had taken the vote. The man was just not interested either for Farebrother or for Tyke despite his ruminations whilst shaving.

Babi: I don't know you very well just yet but just the same am glad you're home safe.

Joank refer to post 501 I didn't say Lydgate was satisfied, here is what I said,"Mr. Lydgate doesn't even consider consciencely that his vote was to stay in good with Bulstrode but deep down he still feels the guilt. "

I was also struck by the number of Dr.s and Clergymen in such a rural area with a small town. We don't know how big the hospital is either and how large a district it serves..a whole parish perhaps.

I find it interesting that when this novel's action starts King George the fourth is still King and When it is written Victoria was Queen. I have to keep remembering that though Eliot was of the Victorian age, the setting of the novel is not. faith

Please, Mary Ann Evans, your readers deserve better than this blatant hearsay. It's a decidedly cheap shot. You're playing with Mr Tyke's reputation, and making it even more difficult for Dr Lydgate to rationalize his ballot.

I believe it's the choices affecting his career that leave Lydgate wincing. As much as he likes Farebrother, he could not have voted for him on the grounds of his unsuitability. A gambling clergyman, selling his soul for the petty winnings at cards or billiards. I would guess that with the 'infirmity of will' Lydgate sees a laxness in professional duties expected of a clergyman. Voting for Mr Tyke was made easier by having it known, thanks to Mr Wrench, that he could and would support Mr Bulstrode, despite the petty wrangling among the rest. Does that make sense? I wonder if Mr Tyke feels that he's selling his soul for 40 shekels of silver?

As the old cliche has it, the plot thickens. Meanwhile a honeymoon is playing itself out in Rome. What a wrenching business it turns out to be. Eliot's honesty is really commendable here. Wasn't it at this point that the Victorians drew the curtains to preserve the privacy of newly-weds? Flora

Re: "Do you think maybe he missed hearing the arguments and would have voted differently if he had heard how the townspeople felt?"

I'm in the camp that thinks Lydgate wouldn't have necessarily cared how the townspeople felt but I think he might have gotten other information during these arguments that, while possibly not changing his vote, may have made it easier for him to live with his decision. I think I'd better go back to the arguments for the third time and think about this...

I really didn't understand all of the hullaballoo about which sort of chaplain...when people are sick and in need of support don't you think they act as one does at a buffet...take what they need and leave the rest? Hmmmm...I must just go and read on...I'm still thinking with my 21st (almost) century mind!!

GUMTREE: I agree with you – reading the posts is a joy. OF COURSE GE wasn’t talking about US when she talked about people being an affliction! We’re all wonderful.

“Sometimes I think her comments are a result of whatever she and Lewes had been discussing over the dinner table! “

I think you hit the nail on the head. How I wish I could have been at those dinners!

But thank you for that quote. I, too think the authorial comments make the book special, even though I admit there are a few long ones that I skipped. And, of course, one of the main things she adds is a sense of humor. Without that, do you think we would take these people as seriously as they take themselves? Or would we decide that they are afflictions?

Do you think Lydgate might have come late hoping the vote would be over, and he wouldn’t have to vote? What would I do? I have no idea.

FAITH: in Post 505, I quoted you quoting Eliot “How could a man be satisfied with a decision between such alternatives and under such circumstances?” And then added “Yes, how could he? What would you have done? “ Is that the post you are referring to? I didn’t mean to imply that you thought he was satisfied. The opposite: that it would be impossible for him to be satisfied. I’m very sorry if my wording wasn’t clear.

I’m glad you reminded us that George IV is still king. I think he dies during the book. I’m sure GE had some historical reason for placing the book just at this point. We should eventually find out what it was. Presumably her readers at the time know, because they know what happened during that time period.

DAY TRIPPER: “Please, Mary Ann Evans, your readers deserve better than this blatant hearsay. “ Hahaha. You’re right. She hasn’t introduced us to Mr. Tyke and let us decide for ourselves. Let’s wait and see if the patients in the hospital rise up in rebellion. The plot does indeed thicken

ALLIE MAE: ..”.when people are sick and in need of support don't you think they act as one does at a buffet...take what they need and leave the rest?” Good point. Hopefully. But people vary.

Alliemae: I totally agree with you re: "I'm in the camp that thinks Lydgate wouldn't have necessarily cared how the townspeople felt."

There's a lot I like about Lydgate. He's such an idealist and really thinks he can contribute something that will change the world through his innovative medical ideas. And he seems so masculinely attractive and independent. But, he's so tactless about everything and very opinionated. He goes around stepping on toes. What's the expression?..."He doesn't see the forest for the trees?" It's pretty obvious he's heading for trouble.

I just love this section about Ladislaw and Dorothea. In Chapter 19, Lad. (with his "abundant and curly hair" - so CUTE) and his friend watch D. in the museum. Lad. is very easily irritated by his friend's praise of D. Will "was conscious of being irritated by ridiculously small causes, which were half of his own creation. Why was he making any fuss about Mrs Casaubon? And yet he felt as if something had happened to him with regard to her..."

I can feel a love story developing with this. And with George Eliot's writing, it will be so wonderful!!! I just love a wonderfully written romance!!

Yes, but she's married. Is there trouble ahead?

Dorothea feels that Casabon is emotionally distant, disconnected, from her - and this was her desire in the marriage, to find a 'soulmate' - you can feel the chill as they go through museums, he awaiting her - courteously always, disengaged by nature, by previous experience.

Without mentioning more intimate relations, Eliot describes a wife desiring connection - and life - and what do Ladislaw's vibrant colorful curls represent? And disappointed even on her honeymoon. Isolated from all others.

There's already trouble!! As we expected, D. and Cas are not bonding. D. was all set to offer her whole self to Cas. But Cas indicates to D. that he "regarded these manifestations [of affection] as rather crude and startling." And D. "had been becoming more and more aware, with a certain terror, that her mind was continually sliding into inward fits of anger or repulsion, or else into forlorn weariness."

And worse! D. is discovering that Cas is simply taking more and more notes, not actually writing his masterpiece. She make the mistake of asking him when he will begin to write the book. This question takes dark hold of Mr. Casaubon. D. has discovered his dark secret. He hasn't been able to actually write the book. He has an inner guilt about it. But, now, he has a wife to nag him about it. "...this cruel outward accuser was there in the shape of a wife - nay, of a young bride, who....seemed to present herself as a spy watching everything with a malign power of inference."

We seem to have a paranoid husband. And we have a crying wife who looks with dread to the future. Things do not bode well.

Joan K. You asked who the character in Lil Abner was with the cloud over his head. It was Injun Joe, the epitome of misery and bad luck. Do you think Al Capp was a reader of GE?

Someone asked Why does Farebrother gamble? He has no wife and he lives with his Mother and two sisters putting on the pressure "to be all he can be". His gambling shows that he is not immune to the pressures of his life . For me it makes him real. It also gives the prudes a reason not to vote for him even though his gambling does not effect his duties.

I thought a lot about the opening of Chap.XIX. My book translates it thus (The lines from The Purgatorio of Dante Alighieri 1265-1321) "BEHOLD THE OTHER ONE, WHO FOR HIS CHEEK/SIGHING HAS MADE OF HIS OWN PALM A BED". I think it points to Dorotheas pose in that position (Hand on Cheek) when Naumann first sees her and is so enchanted. He is taken by the woman, the pose and mostly by her expression. This is the moment of Dorotheas awakening of who she really married, even though she doesn't yet fully comprehend the enormity of the problem. It is also that moment in which the charming Will is forced to rethink his thoughts on the lady and her marriage to his cousin. In caring about her he concentrates less on himself. Both he and D. are beginning to break out of their illusions....but not all at once. There are 600 more pages to go so undoubtedly many hurdles will be in front of all of these interesting people. What a conversation piece GE has provided us with! Wish we were all in the parlor talking, drinking tea and eating crumpets. Judy

"D. has discovered his dark secret. He hasn't been able to actually write the book." yes, and even worse, he senses that she has discovered it. Having someone this close to him is scary.

It seems to me that part of the trouble for both of them is that they have no confidence or belief in themselves. If D. had believed in her own abilities, she wouldn't have been so eager to offer herself to someone she believed was superior. And if C. believed in himself, he would not be so afraid of failing. He might or might not actually write his book, but either way, he would be content with what he was doing.

C. has failed D. in two ways: emotionally, and as a source of knowledge. Eliot seems to tie them together. Would things be different if he was still a failed scholar but was loving to her? Or if he was the brilliant scholar she thought him, but was still cold?

JUDY: we were posting together. I believe you're right: Will and his friend came upon her at the moment of realization.

Have a crumpet.

Good morning, Glories!

Wonderful posts to go with my ~~coffee~~tea and crumpet! I'm sure Fae will be here shortly with the kippers. I was so excited to read Judy's clear and logical explanation of Dante's verse and how it relates to Chapter XIX. I'm sure Laura will be delighted when she gets here ~

(The lines from The Purgatorio of Dante Alighieri 1265-1321) "BEHOLD THE OTHER ONE, WHO FOR HIS CHEEK/SIGHING HAS MADE OF HIS OWN PALM A BED". I think it points to Dorotheas pose in that position (Hand on Cheek) when Naumann first sees her and is so enchanted. (Judy)

We need to talk about this Naumann and the significance of introducing the Germans to the Casaubons in Rome at this time... I'm also thinking of Marni's comment about Middlemarch being a "well written romance." A romance novel? To me it seems like so much - MORE. Although, at last I am beginning to see a budding "romance," not evident before Rome. Can we talk a bit about your understanding of the term "romance novel"? Is this different from a novel written during the Romantic period? The author wrote Middlemarch during the period of Romanticism and says at the start of Chapter XIX:

"Romanticism, which has helped to fill some dull blanks with love and knowledge, had not yet penetrated the times with its leaven and entered into everybody's food..."

I can't help but wonder if the author's intrusions that Gum refers to, aren't an effort to explain events of this pre-Romantic period so that we, the readers get things into better perspective. Perhaps she feels that her characters need explanations for their thoughts and actions that they themselves were not aware of at the time...

A few comments on yesterday's posts before leaving Lydgate to establish his medical practice back in Middlemarch and checking into the newlyweds' boudoir in Rome...

What are his chances of acquiring new patients in Middlemarch, given his stance with Bulstrode, not to mention his poor relations with the other doctors?

Gum notes that he has little understanding of the ways of Middlemarch, has no interest in the chaplaincy vote, but does care about that which will affect him personally. Does he really believe that being aligned with Bulstrode will help advance his practice, Gum?

Alliemae, I think you have hit on something important here - Lydgate doesn't understand all the hullaballoo about the hospital chaplain any more than you do, but I don't think he values the importance of spiritual support in the practice of medicine either. What is interesting to me, is that he is wincing at the thought that he voted against Farebrother for what Flora describes as a "perceived, spiritual laxness" in Farebrother!

I'll agree with you, Alliemae - he's an idealist, who thinks he can change the world through his innovative medical ideals, but so tactless and opinionated"" ...he's obviously headed for an eye-opening. Would you want him for your doctor?

Off with your posts from Rome to savor with breakfast. Thank you all so much for what you bring to the table each day! Judy, this conversation is already so lively and cordial, I really feel that we ARE all together in the parlor with our tea and crumpets!

Way back on Sept 8th when I wrote, "I suppose that in those Victorian times (and at other times as well) certain young girls/women of 'lofty mind' felt, presumably subconsciously, the need to divert their 'passionate' budding sensual selves to something which in their minds was 'worthy' or even 'pre-destined'," I felt I was going off on a psychobabbling tangent about Dorothea.

Now, in Chapter 19 I see Neumann describing Dorothea, as he first notices her in her pose in the museum, a 'sensuous force controlled by spiritual passion'...

That is what I was sensing about Dorothea and her ideas on love, marriage and Casaubon...

Well done, Alliemae!! It's so easy to miss a line like that... Eliot gives us so many!

Thanks, Judy for the Dante translation. But wasn't the little guy with the rain cloud over his head, all in black, with a hat pulled 'way down to his chin "Joe Bftsplzk," or something close to that? He makes me think of Casauban! Injun Joe was a big, heavy guy with hair over his face.

I have completed the current reading, but am on my way to NYC for five days. If there's a computer available in our hotel, I'll try to pop in. Otherwise, au revoir for a bit!

You've got us all with you on that one, Marni.

And so does Judy, with her enthusiastic 'What a conversation piece!'

And what a lot of food for thought Eliot finds in the whole lot of them in Middlemarch. As for romance, I think we've come to the wrong place. Nobody in Middlemarch seems to be looking for romance seriously. Strangely enough, the author herself realizes that she may be disappointing the expectations of her readers. So, being the intellectual she is, she tries fobbing off on us a reference to 'Romanticism', a literary/philosophical notion much talked about in her time. Somewhat like, I suppose, 'existentialism' was used by a later generation to understand themselves and others. As a 'leavening' ingredient in the things the mind feeds on. Poets and artists who came under its influence brought forth astounding creations as we all know.

Casaubon hints at this, during the rounds of the museums with Dorothea in tow. Commenting on the frescoes depicting the fable of Cupid and Psyche, by the artist Raphael, he informs Dorothea that the work is

'probably the romantic invention of a literary period, and cannot, I think, be reckoned as a genuine mythical product.'

Isn't that a an amazing distinction. But it seems to have gone over the head of a distracted Dorothea.

What a tragedy that these two, Casaubon and Dorothea, are so disappointed in each other on their honeymoon. Chapter 20 is a fantastic, psychological penetration of the hearts and minds of these two individuals. But not one iota of real romance. We'll have to look for it elsewhere.

And we find it in the previous chapter, amidst all the talk of artistic representation. The better medium for portraiture, plastic or poetic. How best to get at and portray the real nature of womanhood. To make it less heartbreaking for the readers, especially those whose sympathies go out to Dorothea, after all, as it now turns out, Casaubon wants a wife only as a 'soft shield against that cold, shadowy, unapplausive world out there'...to make it less hopeless for Dorothea, the author cleverly introduces a potential lover in the previous chapter in the young painter Ladislow.

And then in the boudoir of the weeping Dorothea,what a strange ray of hope for a true romance the author holds out in the bizarre imagery apropos of D and C's relationship in:

'Dorothea had now been five weeks in Rome, and in the kindly mornings when autumn and winter seemed to go hand in hand like a happy couple one of whom would presently survive in chillier loneliness...'

That certainly suggests a young widow to me.

A Romance Novel in the classic tradition meant "an adventure story". It was not referring specifically to love, courtship, sex etc as it does now days, but to a style of writing as far as what I have read indicates. As too, the Romantic period also had different meaning in the art world than I would presume by our modern use of English. Romanticism was prevalent from 1820 to 1910 and the term Romantic Period means the freedom from the preceding Classical Tradition that looked back on Greece and Rome for their truth in art. I believe that the German Students and their hangers on (re: GE) were at the first breaking away from Classics therefor (especially in music) bringing in this new "form" of art. It is just a part of all the other changes that happen in Society and throw parents into a fit when hair styles and music styles change :>) faith

I want to elaborate further and put this quote in from "Mavirk Word of the Day" Ouote: By the seventeenth century, we developed the sense 'a novel or other prose narrative depicting heroic or marvelous deeds, pageantry, exploits, etc., usually in a historical or imaginary setting'. This was apparently a borrowing from French roman in this sense rather than an English innovation. (In Modern French, roman is the standard word for 'a novel'. This can be seen in some English borrowings, such as roman à clef (last word pronounced as "clay") 'a novel that represents real events or characters under the guise of fiction', and roman-fleuve 'a long fictional chronicle usually published as a series of interrelated novels and depicting the lives of many characters through several generations', an example being Anthony Powell's Dance to the Music of Time.)

Finally, we have such senses as 'a love story' and love-related spinoffs such as 'a love affair' or 'romantic quality or character' (e.g. "the romance of a candlelit dinner"). These date from the seventeenth century onwards, depending on nuance.

Thus, to get back to your question, romance has not always been about love, and was not originally about love. End of Quote and to read more about the derivation of this here is my link.

http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19990705

faith

ALLIEMAE: how perceptive of you! Of course. Dorothea is a passionate woman (as Eliot was) but the part of that passion that was sexual couldn’t be acknowledged, and was “sublimated” in psycho-babble terms. Very Freudian, but probably true. How perceptive of GE to have seen it.

(Freud is invading my thoughts. I just noticed I used the present tense for D. And the past tense for GE. A tribute to GE: these characters seem live to me).

JO: have a great time in New York! I was going to say bring us back some bagels, but it’s no use. You can’t take New York bagels out of New York: as soon as you cross the state line, they turn as hard as rocks.

DAY TRIPPER: no romance yet, but the promise of a future, if C. dies. How sad . The only way he could make D. Happy is to die? I can’t like him, but I can feel sorry for him. This is probably the only close relationship he has had in his life and it’s a failure: he is trying hard to be a “good husband” but he doesn’t have a clue! It’s a foreign country for him. I wonder what his childhood was like.

FAITH: thank you for that fascinating link: the many and changing usages of the word “romance” are really interesting.

Of all the possible meanings, GE probably meant the “movement” which your source says started in 1820 – Eliot puts it later. But we all understood what MARNI means: romantic love, probably ending in marriage

To Jo Meander Hope you get this in N.Y. You were right. The cloud covered guy was Joe BTFSPLK. How could I forget that name? On his web site it said hat everyone stayed away from him since he was the worlds worst jinx. Causaban was bad but not that bad.He was a sad ,unhappy man. Should never have married. Judy

Well, now, are you still expecting a satisfying "romance" (or two) in this "Romantic" novel, or no? Something has happened in these pages between Dorothea and Will, but can we call it a budding "romance?" He seems to be taken with the sight of her in the museum, even before they speak. I'm still wondering what Dorothea's facial expression looked like to convey a "'sensuous force controlled by spiritual passion, '" Alliemae. A young woman lost in thought, on the verge of tears, oblivious to the art around her? You understood early what Eliot was telling us about Dorothea, while the rest of us just wanted to shake her into realizing her womanhood!

Thanks for the information on "romance", Fai. One thing is certain, love story or no, we are certainly experiencing an excellent "adventure." There is so much to Eliot's writing. Aren't you impressed with her facility of expression and her vast knowledge of art and literature sprinkled throughout the telling of the story? She did write Middlemarch at the age of 50; from her writing you can tell that she spent the years reading as well as writing.

An interesting thought, Flora - about Eliot's awareness that her readers might be looking for romantic love and her attempts to "fob off on us a reference to 'Romanticism.'" What do the rest of you think of that idea?

Flora...I had another thought about the "one of whom would presently survive in chillier loneliness...'" Yes, it does suggest a young widow - OR could it also be a young wife walking alone while her scholar-husband is off somewhere - "lost among small closets and winding stairs." Sad to say, whether he lives or dies, it is all the same to Dorothea's marriage and daily life.

There wasn't much of a honeymoon period, was there? Do you think the problem began with the short engagement? Eliot makes some interesting observations on courtship when "everything is provisional, everything is possible." But their engagement period was so brief. They really didn't get to know one another at all. That had to happen on the honeymoon.

bbc writes - "Dorothea feels that Casaubon is emotionally distant, disconnected, from her - and this was her desire in the marriage, to find a 'soulmate'"
Marni - " Cas indicates to D. that he "regarded these manifestations [of affection] as rather crude and startling."
And Eliot writes - "Nothing more depressing for a young mind expecting from a mind full of knowledge - met with absence of interest."

Ah Judy, you are being too hard on "poor" Casaubon, I think -"a sad, unhappy man. Should never have married." He sought only an emotional tie that had been missing from his life - and sharing his home and life with someone who is sending all sorts of messages that she would love to be a part of his life.

Alas, he had not found "rapture" in the marriage, but THOUGHT HIMSELF an irreproachable husband anyway." I had to smile at that. He thinks he's putting himself out to please her. (I know we're not supposed to talk about such things, but can you just imagine their first night together?)

And all this BEFORE Will, with yellow curls shaking out rays of light, enters stage right and makes the already distraught young wife aware of the fact that her husband is pitiable by comparison, in every respect.

Jo, five days in New York! How much fun! Yes, bring back the bagels, hard as rocks. (They soften in the microwave if we can locate one in Middlemarch.)

Well, these have become 'my people' and oh I hurt so for each of them.

I really think Casaubon is trying but just doesn't know women. If he has a fault it's that he may not think 'women' are worth understanding (or any other person for that matter) but somehow he knows, in a cerebral sense and according to societal dictates that a 'good man'...a man who 'does the right thing'... must be kind to his wife. He is jealous it seems of his wife's response to and interest in Will, but not as a man who is deeply in love with a woman, rather as a petulant child who wants to be the center of his 'mother's' world without even questioning his motives.

The interactions between Dorothea and Will are even more touched with pathos. They clearly 'click' (for lack of a better word). If Dorothea feels this at some level (and I think she does but wants to be 'the best wife in the world'), she hasn't really accepted it yet. This is dangerous because only if she acknowledges (to herself, of course) this connection she and Will share can she be in control of the channeling of it.

And Will...poor Will...alas! He is smitten. He worships Dorothea and he wants Dorothea and not being a cad, especially about his cousin's wife AND his cousin's generosity, is simply aching for her. He is so willing to please her, but for genuine reasons: because he is rather passionately enchanted with this 'muse' of a woman but also because he instinctively knows that to cross certain lines would put a wall between them which may be difficult to remove, or worse, frighten her away.

He dances well, does Will, from enthusiasm which presses him to cast some aspersions on Casaubon, then seeing Dorothea's reaction of loyalty he quickly dances back to a position which his partner in this budding relationship, be it love or friendship or both, can be comfortable with.

It is touching to see roses on Dorothea's cheeks and Will's treating of Dorothea almost as if she were a faun who may dart away in fear and confusion at any moment.

If there is a 'true love' story in this novel, this is the first I've seen.

No, I cannot. Neither Casaubon nor Dorothea had it in them to do anything other than to snuff the candles and go to sleep.

Consider Casaubon. 'With his unfailing propiety.' 'Having made his clerical toilette with due care in the morning, he was prepared only for those amenities of life which were suited for the well-adjusted stiff cravat of the period.' I can't imagine him in a relaxed, not to mention a voluptuous emotional state.

As for Dorothea, with her 'sensuous force controlled by spiritual passion', she doesn't sound ready to abandon herself to anything unrational. Besides, that force and passion, I suspect, were only in the eye of that beholder, Naumann, whose reducing Dorothea to a piece of art so irritated Ladislaw.

Dorothea does have a strange power over men. If she had not come along Casaubon would never have considered marriage. I'm just surprised that the author seems unwilling to give them a chance. At the first hump in the road, she abandons him, to consider an alternative for Dorothea. Whether Eliot was partial to young painters, or caught the sunshine in Ladislaw's curly hair, she soon picks up on Ladislaw's apparent interest in Dorothea, and brings the two of them tete a tete, most improperly, but in such a cordial fashion, that they are mutually smitten with each other.

What a roller coaster this is from chapter to chapter! And more to come. I don't see too much passion in Dorothea. Lot's of emotion is beginning to appear. Along with good cause to cry. But the tears only enhance her beauty for someone who has eyes to see.

Enter Casaubon, viewing the tete a tete with some displeasure, but even so not swerving 'from his usual politeness of greeting.' 'Too proud to betray his jealousy.'

Jealousy!? Casaubon, the dried-up old pedant jealous?

Yes, indeed. But in his own way.

'There is a sort of jealousy which needs very little fire; it is hardly a passion, but a blight bred in the cloudy, damp despondency of uneasy egoism.' p163

Do something with that, Freud. Flora

Thank you Judy S. for your thoughts on the Dante verse!

Marni, I was shocked to find out that Casaubon had not actually written much, if anything. However, upon reflection, I should have guessed as much. What had he really complete in his life, I wonder? Clearly, he has not had any close personal relationships with women, and maybe not even with men. That, to me, reflects how incomplete other parts of his life must be. I wonder what we have yet to discover “hidden in his closet.” (I am thinking skeletons in the closet, not that he is homosexual!)

Day Tripper, I agree with you in that I anticipate Dorothea will be made a widow. I am hoping Dorothea can have a satisfying courtship which leads to marriage that is satisfying both emotionally and physically. Maybe I am hoping for too much, but as Judy S. said, there are 600 pages to go.

I am afraid Dorothea’s and Will’s relationship might be doomed to failure too. On pg. 207 of the B&N edition, the narrator states, “The remote worship of a woman throned out of their reach plays a great part in men’s lives, but in most cases the worshipper longs for some queenly recognition, some approving sign by which his soul’s sovereign may cheer him without descending from her high place.” I fear Will has put Dorothea on such a pedestal as to make her either inaccessible or too perfect, such that Will’s allusion of Dorothea’s perfection will one day be shattered by Dorothea’s humanity.

As for what went wrong with the relationship between Dorothea, and Casaubon, I look to the quote on pg. 190 of the B&N edition, “She was as blind to his inward troubles as he to hers;” They are not communicating with each other! They are both still acting based on the preconceived notions each as about what a marriage should be, not on what their marriage actually is.

As for the other questions for consideration for the week:

I am clueless about the German connection.

I hadn’t even noticed that Rome was only mentioned as a center of art. I didn’t feel the need, given the book’s context, to have its history and antiquities mentioned. People in this section are referred to in artistic descriptions and we meet up with Will and Naumann, who are artists. I just thought the whole “art theme,” if you will, was tied in nicely with the story and characters at this point.

I am very interested in why Eliot chose Santa Clara and Saint Thomas Aquinas as the people Dorothea and Casaubon served as models for. I have done some research, but need to “digest it.” I will back with my thoughts on this ASAP. Meanwhile, was anyone else curious about this?

Dorthea is still given to that "magical thinking" that cause her to be unable to see the truth, the reality. She first sees C as an ideal of knowledge, instead of the flawed mortal he is. She also believed that through him she could become a sort of benevolent sage. So believing she continues creating a deceptive image of herself as an intellectual puritan. If Freud were given her "case" I do wonder what he would make of it.

I find Will more of a real character than the others and have since he first smiled at Dorthea's comments. I am hoping she will begin to see herself as she really is for there can be no happiness in a life where the person deceives herself as to who she really is. To some extent we all do it, and most people have many masks but the happy person integrates these characteristics into a whole person. faith

Ah, yes, young Ladislaw was quite put out with his friends repeated reference to Casaubon as his uncle. He was insistent on the point that Casaubon was only a second cousin. The source of his irritation, I'm sure, lay in the fact that the wife of a second cousin is approachable in ways that an 'aunt' is not. But I doubt if he himself recognizes the cause of his irritation.

I was struck by Ladislaw's defense of writing as being a better portrayer than painting. We are so schooled to the idea that 'a picture is worth a thousand words', we accept it w/o much thought. Yet he is correct that a picture cannot reflect the grace of movement or the tones of a voice. I know that I very soon form a definite mental picture of the characters in a book, just from the author's descriptions. With, no doubt, some fleshing out by my own experiences and prejudices. Once formed, tho', I would be quite irritated to come across an illustration that showed a very different image. It would throw me off on all my conceptions.

What do you think? Is 'language the finer medium'? For an historical portrait, of course, one wants accuracy. For a fictional character, perhaps it's best to form our own image.

Babi

ALLIE MAE: “Well, these have become 'my people' and oh I hurt so for each of them. “

I feel that way too. Eliot has really worked her magic on us, hasn’t she?

“He is jealous it seems of his wife's response to and interest in Will, but not as a man who is deeply in love with a woman, rather as a petulant child who wants to be the center of his 'mother's' world without even questioning his motives.

Or could it be that part of him realizes that Will is making him look bad by comparison.

Do you think D. is really as oblivious as she seems? It seems improbable, but Eliot set us up to believe it, with her reaction to Sir James.

“He dances well, does Will, “ Yes, doesn’t he. I can’t help but like Will, but he is a little too smooth at manipulation for my taste. He is really the first person in the book who seems to be always aware of other peoples feelings, and modify his actions accordingly. Can it be that we’ve finally found someone who listens?

DAY TRIPPER: you don’t agree that D. is a passionate woman. Great! Presumably, we’ll find out (or maybe not, given the conventions of the day).

“At the first hump in the road, she abandons him, to consider an alternative for Dorothea” Don’t you think she always set him up to be abandoned?

“the cloudy, damp despondency of uneasy egoism.' p163 “ Isn’t that a perfect description of C.? JUDY asks “What had he really complete in his life, I wonder?” Good question. He lives for his work, but can’t complete his work. Committing himself to publish something is too threatening to his “uneasy egotism”.

LAURA: “Dorothea/Santa Clara Casaubon/Saint Thomas Aquinas”.

Good for you. That blew by me completely. Let us know what you find out.

FAITH says “there can be no happiness in a life where the person deceives herself as to who she really is” Does this apply to others in this book as well as D.?

And BABI challenges us “What do you think? Is 'language the finer medium'” than art? Who wants to answer that?

-He tells DoDo to "see Rome as a bride." He instructs her to visit places and antiquities. Can't you just see the old codger teaching, advising and lecturing D. as they flit around this beautiful city?
He rambles on about Raphael. "He is the painter who has been held to combine the most complete grace of form with sublimity of expression" Oh pull-ease ! What a prig. Who cares? Grab your beautiful young wife , take her by the hand and giggle over a glass of wine. Forget the preaching and teaching, I say. His time in life has been spent entombed in his library, it's no wonder he wanted Celia to accompany D. on the honeymoon. He babbles on about the legends of Cupid and Psyche. Nope! I don't believe he'd be much of a touring partner, nor a bedmate, for that matter. "See Rome as a bride!" Is that to be the extent of her conjugal activity? While touring he'd question her and "it seemed to her as if going or staying were alike dreary."

What a great question you have posed for us- Is "language the finer medium'” than art? Like beauty, the answer lies in the eye of the beholder. They are both (and let us add music too) a system of communication. That is the key to the answer. Some communicate ideas and thoughts more easily thru art, others thru language and yet others thru music.
I might comprehend and perceive language more readily than art. You, on the other hand might be more impressionable gazing at a beautiful, expressive painting and music- ah music- that will calm any savage beast. good question.

Sure Joan it applies to several other characters such as C himself. He saw what he wanted to see in Dorthea thought himself a desirable husband for her. He also sees himself as a scholar and is working on a great contribution to the world with his examination of world myths,(he never does any writing but his notes.) Doesn't he hate it though when Dorthea calls him on this...it makes him look at himself and caused anger.

The Dr. and Rosalind are both characters that are good at seeing their own version of others and not the reality. However in my opinion up to now Dorthea has been the most self-deciving at least so far. faith

Babi for me language is art. That said, I find that I like the fullness of a written description to understand a scene. It can also be spoken such as in a play, and it touches me more than any "picture" or other so called fine art. But music will touch my soul.

I think C lectures D on art while roaming around Rome with out any comprehension of what he is looking at and just repeats what he has read in his dusty libraries, and she also is not giving any direct attention to the world of Classical art that surrounds her. It is as if since she can't understand- it she is ignoring it while yearning for a sunset over fields of clover. Not an unusual way for people to "view art" on a museum tour. faith

Re Mr. Casaubon lacking passion.... He lacks sexual passion and he seems to regret it somewhat shortly after he is married. However, he displays the passions of anger and jealousy. And we see a glimpse of his inner turmoil when his wife questions him about writing his book. He must have a very strong feeling of guilt over his inability to begin his masterpiece after all these years of preparation. We see a glimpse of his paranoia that others will discover his secret and despise him for it. These unfortunate passions can only grow stronger since the marriage is only 6 weeks old. When the author describes Casaubon as thinking of his wife as a spy, I can only imagine that this feeling could become hatred of his wife.

Marni

The following conversation between Will and D. is interesting:

Will sees that D. doesn't enjoy art, and says"I should have expected you to be very sensitive to the beautiful anywhere".

D. answers (in part) " I should like to make life beautiful-- I mean everybody's life.And then this immense expense of art, that seems somehow to lie outside life and make it no better for the world pains one. It spoils my enjoyment of anything when I am made to think that most people are shut out from it".

Will answers (in part) "It is of no use to try and take care of all the world: that is being taken care of when you feel delight - in art or in anything else".

What do you think? Do you agree with either of them? Why, or why not?

Possibly the reference to Sir Thomas Aquinas was just that he was a great scholar and thus explains why Casuabon was flattered enough to consent to sit for Naumann. He knows nothing of art but thinks he is being recognised as a scholar the equal of Aquinas so to his mind it is appropriate for him to allow Naumann to use his image.

Will's defence of writing as being a better medium than painting suggests to me that Eliot is expressing her own experience as a writer. In MM she is certainly showing us how all encompassing writing can be.

D is a Puritan at heart. She has seen something of the poverty and squalor of Rome that lay about side by side with the great art and it offends her that nothing appears to be being done to alleviate the suffering poor, when so much is being spent on 'useless' art. As we've already seen,D's chief concern and what she sees as a desirable life's work lies in helping the poor. For her, art is trivial and her upbringing and education have not prepared her to appreciate it - I've no doubt Will will remedy that situation.

Another NIGHT OWL! Good morning, Gum! Isn't this a fine group gathered here under our roof? You shine light on so many of GE's most obscure asides, which I am quite sure would have escaped if reading alone. Reading, a group artform. And I LOVE the questions that are coming forth - the author would have loved to join this group, I am sure!

Can there be happiness in life where the person deceives herself as to who she really is? (Fae) Don't most young people not know who they are yet? Isn't it sadder when older people find they have been deceiving themselves? As Marni points out, they don't take it well when found out - Casaubon turns against Dorotheafor this reason. Is this marriage spoiled on the honeymoon, or can Dorothea's determination make it work?

Does this apply to others in this book as well as D.? Joan, Wouldn't it be easier to name those who are NOT deceiving themselves?

Is 'language the finer medium'” than art? (Babi) Do you agree with Andy's answer? "Like beauty, the answer lies in the eye of the beholder." So many errors in judgment seem to be made in that sujective eye of the beholder in this novel. But isn't this true with everyone? Apparently Will, who is studying art, believes that language is the more accurate means of expression. Gum, I too think GE would agree with him. Will he become a poet, Dorothea asks? Is she more comfortable with poetry than with art, do you think?

Santa Clara, Thomas Aquinas? (Laura) Gum answers the Aquinas reference...great scholar, flattery to get Casaubon involved in the painting. (Flattery gets you everywhere in Middlemarch!) Naumann really wants to paint Dorothea. The question remains, what is it about Santa Clara that he finds in Dorothea?

GUMTREE: "what she sees as a desirable life's work lies in helping the poor. For her, art is trivial".

You say that Will will correct that. Should he?

JoanK! Queen of nighttime talk shows! We are assembling quite a group of night owls here...or should I say earlybirds? (I just now see your earlier post preceding Gum's)

What strikes me most about young Will is the way he speaks so directly to Dorothea. He says what he thinks, unlike so many of the characters in this book. Some of the characters don't seem to know how they feel, and if they do, they are so worried about making an impression, they "edit" everything they say. Will blurts, sometimes hurts, but at least he's able to talk things out in a way that Dorothea knows what he is talking about. How refreshing this must be for! If anyone can make her enjoy art - or life, it's Will.

Do you see a problem with this? Will is able to speak to her in an intimate way, (referring to her prison at Lowick, for example) and yet he wants to keep her on a pedestal. He wants her on the pedestal, but he wants her to notice him, to appreciate him. Maybe she will serve as his muse. Do muses notice those they have inspired?

Is Eliot making a point about Will and Dorothea's "hyperbolical tongues?" I guess such a tongue wagging in Will's mouth, but Dorothea's?

I'm often on in the middle of the night, when I can't sleep. That's when I'm glad for our friends down under to talk to.

But what are you doing here?

Yes, I do see a problem. Will is saying things that he has no business to say, that clearly show his feelings, and she remains oblivious.

What do you all think of her tone with Will? Where did that casual open friendliness come from? Have we seen that in her before? It seems that being a wife has changed her.

Couldn't sleep. Instead of counting sheep, I surf! I just found this site on the web...all (and more) you would want to know about Naumann and the art of these chapters...and Santa Clara...

When Naumann first encounters Dorothea in the Vatican Museum, her "Quakerish" costume and meditative expression inspire him to paint her as a personification of the Christian spirit, "dressed," since Naumann is Catholic, "as a nun" (19:289). Then he sees Dorothea as a "perfect young Madonna," and eventually he settles for painting her as Santa Clara (19:290, 22:331). But Dorothea's figure and attitude resemble those of the statue of Ariadne near which she stands, so there are pagan elements in the scene which prompt Naumann to a more comprehensive definition. He envisions Dorothea as "antique form animated by Christian sentiment -- a sort of Christian Antigone -- sensuous force controlled by spiritual passion" (19:290). This formulation unites the classical and the medieval, reconciling the great antitheses of German aesthetic debate in a higher synthesis.

Naumann's Christianizing aestheticism, then, is one of the many modes of human intellection tested and found wanting in Middlemarch Idealizing portraiture provides no coherent vision in this novel of incomplete insights. Ultimately Dorothea eludes all of the analogies that attempt to characterize her as Santa Clara, Santa Teresa, Santa Barbara, the Madonna, and a Christian Antigone, just as Mr. Casaubon more obviously eludes Naumann's vision of him as Saint Thomas Aquinas or Dorothea's comparison of him with "the portrait of Locke" Art in George Eliot's Middlemarch

In a way I do hope they go home soon. I want to know how Celia and Will and Mary Garth are coming along.

I want to know if the only 'perfect pairing' in the book will turn out to be Mr. Featherstone and Bulstrode!!

And I want to see what happens should Sir James notice the difference in Dorothea when she returns from home.

And, Dorothy--sure to miss the easy company she shared with Will--do you think she might feel the need to show more sympathy towards James?

Alliemae

Yes Joan, Will does speaky openly to his benefactor's wife, the "angel beguiled." She begins to pity the old coot.
As Dorothea's eyes were turned anxiously on her husband she was perhaps not insensible to the contrast, but it was only mingled with other causes in making her more conscious of that new alarm on his behalf which was the first stirring of a pitying tenderness fed by the realities of his lot and not by her own dreams. YEt, it was a source of greater freedom to her that Will was there; his young equality was agreeable, (something not found in Mr. C) and also perhaps his openness to conviction.
Oh-oh , is this the turning point in the story as D. begins to see this contrast while comparing the two men?

I agree with gumtree that St. Thomas Aquinas was a great scholar and that is why Eliot chose Casaubon to be his image in a painting. Here are a few quotes from an article on the site newadvent.org:

“Thomas could repeat the lessons with more depth and lucidity than his masters displayed. The youth’s heart had remained pure amidst the corruption with which he was surrounded, and he resolved to embrace the religious life.”

“His sermons were forceful, redolent of piety, full of solid instruction, abounding in apt citations from the Scriptures.” I couldn’t help but think of Casaubon’s explanations of the art in Rome to Dorothea while reading this.

“…always teaching and writing, living on earth with one passion, and ardent zeal for the explanation and defence of Christian truth. So devoted was he to his sacred task that with tears he begged to be excused from accepting the Archbishopic of Naples, to which he was appointed by Clement IV in 1265. Had this appointment been accepted, most probably the ‘Summa theologica’ would not have been written.” Casaubon’s one passion seems to be his research too. Could we go so far as to say that Casaubon does not accept the commitment that is required by his marriage so that he can do his research?

“…he experienced an unusually long ecstasy during Mass; what was revealed to him we can only surmise from his reply to Father Reginald, who urged him to continue his writings: ‘I can do no more. Such secrets have been revealed to me that all I have written now appears to be of little value.’ … Thomas began his immediate preparation for death.” Could this be a bit of foreshadowing too? Casaubon realizes his research is for not and prepares for death?

“St. Thomas Aquinas is patron of all Catholic universities, academies, colleges, and schools throughout the world.”

Now, here is some information on St. Clare of Assisi, or Santa Clara in Italian, whose image Eliot chose Dorothea to be in the painting, again from newadvent.org:

“…as she passed into girlhood her distaste for the world and her yearning for a more spiritual life increased.” Dorothea wants to do great things too.

“Clare then laid aside her rich dress, and St. Francis, having cut off her hair, clothed her in a rough tunic and a thick veil, and in this way the young heroine vowed herself to the service of Jesus Christ. …but her father, who had expected her to make a splendid marriage, and who was furious at her secret flight, on discovering her retreat, did his utmost to dissuade Clare from her heroic proposals, and even tried to drag her home by force.” I wonder what Dorothea’s father would have thought of her marriage to Casaubon? Certainly the people of Middlemarch expected her to make a better marriage.

Given the choice between a book (language) and a movie (painting) version of the same story, I always choose the book version. I feel that there is no way a movie can capture all the nuances of character thought that occur in a book. However, that said, I am usually one of the first to research a historical person, place, etc. when reading an historical fiction book.

LOL at the question of who is not deceiving themselves in this book! I think Mr. Cadwallader, from Chapter VIII still holds the honor.

LOL too to ALF’s post on “See Rome as a bride!” So true!

And speaking of Will speaking directly to Dorothea, I noted this comment by him to her on pg. 209 of the B&N edition, “I suspect that you have some false belief in the virtues of misery, and want to make your life a martyrdom.” Whew! Good for Will for saying so! Of course, I thought of the Prelude to the book.

Now to Joan P.’s site on Art in George Eliot’s Middlemarch --- so much to learn!

The more I read of Wills openess, his humour, I see him as kind though proud and he is very intelligent. That openess of communication is such a relief in this novel( even though he is going against society in the way he speaks intimately to Dorthea) I do like him and am going to read ahead a little. I just cant wait and I will be careful not to be a spoiler,hehehefai

"he displays the passions of anger and jealousy"

I have to comment on Marni's observation regarding Casaubon, that he is not a passionless man. He displayed anger and jealousy on finding Dorothea happily chatting with Ladislaw.

He is showing anger and jealousy, unquestionably. But even in this, does he not show a cold anger; a chilly jealousy? Many people react this way, generally those we tend to describe in these modern days as 'uptight'. (Another word occurs to me, but I'll skip that.)

I have also seen it in people who have been raised to behave in a certain way. I knew a woman whose mother was English, and had raised her to be a 'lady', by the English definition. When she was angry, she became very polite and very stiff. The more polite she got, the angrier she was.

Casaubon may be capable of anger and jealousy, but IMHO, he's still a cold stick.

Babi

Eliot has the artist choose which saints the artists wants, usually to flatter the patron, and so I would think that this represents the view of the artist and what the artist's view of the patron is....not to 'de-santcify' the patrons but there is usually a bit of ego involved in these matters.

Just my opinion....

From JOANP’s site:“..many modes of human intellect ion [are] tested and found wanting in Middlemarch. ..this [is a] novel of incomplete insights.”

What an interesting way of looking at the book. We all begin to see that Casaubon is a failure, but have been looking at this as a personal failure, not a criticism of scholarship. Now we have art as symbolism. There is a passage where Eliot is clearly making fun of this (p.213 Penguin).

Will says he has been sketching Tamburlaine “‘I mean to outdo him [Naumann] in breadth of intention. I take Tamburlaine in his chariot for the tremendous course of the worlds physical history, lashing on the harnessed dynasties.’”

D, asks “‘the sketch must be very grand if it conveys so much....Do you intend Tamburlaine to represent earthquakes and volcanoes?’ ‘O yes’ said Will, laughing. ‘and migration of races and clearings of forests -and America and the steam-engine’....

‘What a difficult kind of shorthand’ said Dorothea.”,

Clearly here she is making fun. I just thought Will was twitting his Friend, because he is annoyed at being manipulated. But I guess this is another “mode of human intellection” found wanting.

Are there others. Scholarship, art as symbolic, what else?

ALLIE MAE: “I want to know if the only 'perfect pairing' in the book will turn out to be Mr. Featherstone and Bulstrode!! “ Hahaha. What a thought! Some of these questions will be answered next week, as we go back to Middlemarch, learn more about Fred’s money problems, meet Mary’s family and understand her situation better, and catch up on Lydgate’s activities.

ALF: yes, it looks like D. is beginning to doubt. But her reaction is to ask Will never to speak of the matter again. Is she hiding her head in the sand?

LAURA: interesting material on the saints. It looks like Eliot (or maybe her character Neumann) are being ironic in painting C. as Thomas Aquinas (or do I mean sarcastic?) But D. fits St. Clara very well.

Can we really condone Will Ladislaw's meddling in this marriage? Motivated by his animosity and envy of his cousin Mr Casaubon, he deliberately sets out to alienate Dorothea's affections for her husband. It's downright devillish of Ladislaw to put doubts into Dorothea's head about Casaubon's scholarship. He has done a lot of solid work. He hasn't wasted his life. So, perhaps, he needs a thesis supervisor. Dorothea is too young and inexperienced for her husband. He has lost touch with youthfulness. There is a generation gap. But it might work out alright without Ladislaw around.

How easy Eliot makes it for Dorothea to fall for Ladislaw's youthfull charms. And what a bewitching innocence she uses to charm him. I see no reason not to believe that one can be as easily deceived by words as by pictures. I get the uneasy feeling that Eliot can be manipulative with her written narration. Of course she is also very expository. She may just be taking us along wherever her own heart leads her in all this. It's just as gumtree observed:

'In MM she (Eliot) is certainly showing us how all-encompassing writing can be.' post #555

There's so much detail. Of course it's interesting to debate which is the best medium to get at the truth. Let's not forget that Eliot has also several times hinted that truth lies in feelings. One aspect of Romanticism. So, how to express feelings? Eliot does not stint with them either.

To whit. To whoo. To all you night owls out there.

Day Tripper Will is acting like Will(does the name give him away?). From his introduction he showed that he does what he feels like doing; paint, write or travel. A priviledged life indeed. He also says what he feels as well. In his discussuion with Dorothea he even shows some restraint finally . Perhaps fear of losing his benefactor ties his tongue a bit.

We the audience see the obvious problems between Causabon and his wife. Will gives some of them voice.Young Lovers break taboos from the days of Shakespeare and probably before that. That is what we are meant to see. The voice of true love and attraction is very far from the idealized choice of a mate that poor Dorothea made. Both she and Causabon are suffering for this.Perhaps GE sees herself in Will in that she too broke many tabboos for true love.

My question to all: Why would a person allow him/herself to be painted as a Saint when they are not the least Saintly? Is it only Vanity?

Judy

For you bird lovers, history buffs, and biography readers, a discussion of John James Audubon: The Making of an American by Richard Rhodes will be starting Nov. 1. If you're interested, sign up by clicking here: John James Audubon: The Making of an American by Richard Rhodes

It's a fascinating story and should be a fun discussion!

Marni

Slept in this morning, missed the kippers, missed the crumpets! I guess it's nearly lunch time...

Various notes on desktop as we near the end of Book Two - a bit long; will break up into separate posts...

Andy feels we may have reached the turning point in the Dorothea-Casaubon marriage - "as D. begins to see this contrast while comparing the two men." Do you agree? Flora thinks it might have worked out if Will hadn't meddled. Weren't they having real marital problems BEFORE Will entered the picture. Do you really think they can now returned to a peaceful life in Lowick? Wouldn't Dorothea have been attracted to Will's happy outlook on life, (sooner or later) even if he hadn't "meddled" at this time?

* Judy, maybe the fact that Will is aware that Casaubon is his benefactor "ties his tongue a bit, " but don't forget that now he plans to get out from under his reliance on his cousin BECAUSE of Dorothea. Does anyone want to make a guess as to how he might do this? (No fair guessing if you've already read the book or seen the movie.)

* Will seems to think they can make a go at it if he gets away from Casaubon and Dorothea. He observed at the end of Book II - "She has obstinacy and pride enough to serve instead of love." Do you agree with him? Do you find Dorothea prideful?

Another question - what do you expect from Casaubon when they return to Lowick? Babi points out his "cold anger." Will the knowledge that Dorothea knows his secret lack of accomplishment and focus interfere with his research? Hasn't he lost all pride or has he been left with some dignity. "What is that, my love?" said Mr Casaubon (he always said "my love", when his manner was the coldest). Chilly times await at the old homestead, I fear.

bbc points writes that "Eliot has the artist choose which saints the artists wants, usually to flatter the patron." Marni, I think that Casaubon's vanity allowed him to be painted as the great scholar, Acquinas. I don't think Dorothea understood why Naumann was painting her as Santa Clara. I could be wrong. I don't think vanity was involved in her case. Although much has been written regarding Dorothea's appearance and naiveté, I still have a lot of unanswered questions about her.-
‘What a difficult kind of shorthand’ said Dorothea.” - JoanK, you clearly see her making fun of Will - again. Is she consciously making fun, or are her candid remarks so guileless that they end up stinging the person on the receiving end. Is it Eliot herself making fun through the unknowing Dorothea? This isn't the first time Dorothea has unwittingly hurt Will. Remember her first remark about his painting being representative of nature?

I strongly agree with you, Laura - about a movie capturing the nuances of character - a reason that I won't look at the BBC video available in my local library - until I have all these characters firmly set in my own mind. Yes, Mr. Cadwallader gets the honor for not deceiving self...would you add Farebrother to this list?

Will is more easily understood...maybe because he IS so outspoken, refreshingly so as Fai points out. Read on, my m'lady, but don't spoil. Flora suspects that Eliot that Eliot can be manipulative with her written narration. I really feel that to be so, but I do love the manipulation. I hope I'm not being a "spoiler" when I mention the title of Book III, Fai - "Waiting for Death." Is this the author's "teaser?" There was a two month wait between the first publication of these volumes. The title was announced, but that is all. She tried to leave things hanging from one volume to the next.

The Audobon sounds wonderful, Marni. So do Shadow of the Wind and Sweetgrass, which just opened this morning. I'm hoping that our slow pace here will leave you some time for one of these discussions.

Enjoy Saturday, everyone!

DAYTRIPPER, I don't at all see Will as attempting an 'alienation of affection'. He is smitten with Dorothea, yes, but has her on a pedestal. Eliot has said he would value her less if she were to lapse from her wifely virtue. He simply wants to be recognized, acknowledged, accepted, liked, by this 'sovereign of his soul'.

He is now feeling his dependency on Casaubon to place him in an untenable and irksome position. He wishes to be on a different footing in the Casaubon household.

Babi

I find that it is hard to form my own opinion of Dorothea. It changes and is easily manipulated by the intrusive author who is doing the work here. She is writing the story ...telling us what to think about the place and the people. This seems an unusual way to write. I wonder if she would have laughed at our modern authors like Hemmingway who simply narrated almost in newspaper jargon and left it to the reader to respond and form opinions. faith

I agree with you Faith. Eliot is manipulating Dorothea right before our very eyes (and in turn us.) I am trying to be patient with her but I would like to shake her and tell her to awaken from her adolescent dream state and face life's realities. I think perhaps I am being too harsh but good grief--- I really get annoyed when she starts thinking herself so inferior and raising up old Mr. C as if were her Adonis. I've not read this story before but heavens does this continue on throughout the entire novel. I'll be ready to kill him!

Alf, we are often on the same trail like we were in the Red Tent,eh? I started out wanting to shake D and still do but I can see that GE is leading us toward her changing re: these conversations with Will L. in this last chapter of Book II. faith

Judy, you do make a good point. It must be vanity. And artists are only too eager to oblige their patrons. Just think, for example, of all the biblical-themed Rennaissance art that has the wealthy and noble as sit-ins for prophets and kings. Wasn't it the Medicis who saw themselves represented in the Magi worshipping the babe in the manger. There must be a thousand other examples.

Saintlness must have been the farthest thing from Casaubon's mind when he agreed to pose as Thomas Acquinas. Was the latter known for his saintliness, in the conventional sense?. Wasn't he simply thought of the great doctor with his stupendous achievment in reconciling christian theology and aristotelian philosophy? And that is about as much as I know about it, but it's enough for me to appreciate Casaubon basking in some kind of reflected light in a portrait of Acquinas. But more interesting is that he allowed himself to be taken in so easily by that crafty painter, Naumann. He's using Casaubon in order to paint Dorothea. Using Saint Clara seems so natural in the context. Clara was a wealty dame who shed her fine clothing and jewelry to head up a Franciscan order, where the emphasis was on poverty. Naumann must have guessed it about Dorothea with her quakerish clothing. The matchup is hilarious. I doubt if Dorothea was even aware of Saint Clara. But the reader knows that she was satisfied to have her sister inherit and use their mother's jewelry.

'I won't look at the BBC video available in my local library - until I have all these characters firmly set in my own mind.' 574

Joan, I admire your confidence that you will eventually fix all these characters firmly in your mind. Don't hold your breath...

With Eliot it's not going to happpen. She has already seen to it that each one of us has a peculiarly subjective viewpoint of almost everyone. So we would seem to be agreed about Humphrey Cadwallader. And Farebrother. But there it ends. Just look how Eliot has influenced Andy about Casaubon. I have to shake my head, but I will admit that Eliot has given her reason to give up on Casaubon:

'Mr Casaubon (he always said "my love", when his manner was the coldest)'

That's such an obvious stage direction sort of thing, a deliberate author as editor abuse of reliable narration, that it makes me wonder if I want to buy into a third instalment.

I have serious doubts about Will Ladislaw. I'm not sure about the 'happy outlook on life' that you have given him. I'm inclined to think that he is very unhappy, and unsure of himself. Naumann has told him he can't paint. He depends on his cousin Casaubon for his life of privilege. He's more or less a persona non grata in Casaubon's household. Didn't Ladislaw also try lighting a fire under Casaubon, like Dorothea is trying to do? And got an angry reaction?

Ladislaw is right about Dorothea's obstinacy and pride. And that's the good old fashion obstinacy and pride to make a go of something despite the problems. How many wives have had to fall back on that when the going got rough? Perhaps love will come. As for love between Dorothea and Ladislaw, which we all seem to think so certain and inevitable, I'm not too sure about that. There is an attraction certainly, but this could be a very flighty thing, entirely dependent on the needs of the moment for both of them.

Get the video, Joan. It's excellent. It will only enhance your enjoyment of the book. Well, you might have to change your mind about Mr Brooke. He's not the ultimate mediocrity that some would have him. Flora

Where does one get the video? I tried for it on Netflix and they only carry 2 out of 6 discs. What the H7*** good does that do me I ask?

JOANP: I can’t decide whether D. is teasing Will or not. I’m not even sure whether Will is serious or is teasing. the only thing I’m sure of is that Eliot is teasing.

I agree with BABI: Will wants D., but he wants her on a pedestal. If she fell, he would lose all respect for her.

I can’t decide what D. feels. I think at this point, she feels attraction but doesn’t recognize it for what it is. But after C. says he’s not interested in Will, she doesn’t mention him again. Maybe at that point, she begins to feel that there is something wrong.

FAITH: I want to shake D. too. But what is the “Red Tent”?

DAY TRIPPER: “I doubt if Dorothea was even aware of Saint Clara. But the reader knows that she was satisfied to have her sister inherit and use their mother's jewelry”.

How clever of you. I never would have caught that. I’m sure the connection was deliberate. But let’s remember, in the end, D. DID keep a piece of jewelry. Maybe she isn’t quite ready for sainthood.

“I'm not sure about the 'happy outlook on life' that you have given [Will]. I'm inclined to think that he is very unhappy, and unsure of himself.”

That’s interesting. Will is 23. We think of him as being older than D. but he’s not by much. We (and he, and maybe Eliot) don’t know who he is yet.

ALF: netflicks has two of seven discs? That’s crazy!!! I was assuming they would have it. But I’m with JoanP: I don’t want to see it until I’ve finished the book.

AMAZON DVD Here you go, Andy. Although I would surely miss your candid observations and don't know how on earth you would be able to refrain from talking about the outcome - Please DON'T DO IT! Not yet! Have you checked out your local library? Ours has it on the shelf. I see it every time I'm over there.

Do you think Dorothea will find a German teacher when she gets back home? What was that about? Are the Germans so advanced n Art and Literature? Not the French?

I'm wondering what Will would have thought of Celia? I'll bet she'd look as Quaker-ish as Dorothea, no? As saintly? With a few more embellishments perhaps, ribbons or mama's jewels. I'm certain Eliot will not leave the poor girl on the wall, but will bring her into the dance at some point.

Wasn't there a line in one of the later chapters in this book, in which Dorothea looks at C. with pity? Will she go back to Lowick with him and act as if he is still in the midst of great research...out of pity for him? That sounds like our girl. But what will she DO with her time? If I had time on my hands, I think I'd learn a language...

George Eliot found both a German and a French teacher when she was home taking care of her Father. However Dorothea had dreamed to learn Latin and Greek to help her husband. Was she dreamily expecting him to instruct her in these lessons?

Has Dorothea so easily forgotten her dream of designing cottages for the poor (precursor to Habitat?).Oh dear , has she completely lost her bearings? Dorothea was looking for an anchor to keep her steady. The one she has chosen will drag her down. For all that, I beleive that eventually (somewhere in the next 600 pages) Dorothea will learn that only she can float her own boat and keep it steady and on course.

How will Will support himself?. Well if I am correct in seeing him as a large part of who George Eliot was ,he will support himself by writing. She too had to break away from the protection and money of her family in order to make a go of her life and become who she wanted to be. Writing was her salvation. perhaps It can be Wills salvation as well.

Judy

It seems to me that not only Lydgate but Will and Fred too are still finding their way in life. At least,Lydgate has his vocation but Will has just decided that painting is not his 'genius' In the meantime young Fred doesn't know whether or not he has to do anything - it will all depend on Featherstone and that inheritance. If Fred joins the clergy will he develop and become like Farebrother who as we know is fond of gaming and uses his winnings to support his love of expensive books on natural history - Fred would probably use his winnings to satisfy his love of horseflesh and feel the weight of Mary's tongue in the process - they are afterall lifelong friends and lifelong friends have privileges.

We're taking a break away for a week or so and going south into forest country - I need to see my fellow gumtrees for a bit - down there they're mostly Karri and Jarrah, beautiful tall timber. Will check in again when I get back. Have fun!

Here I am being harshly scolded and admonished for something I am never guilty of. I do not, I repeat, Joan do not give away anything in a book or a movie, (no matter how tempted I may be). I hate that when someone tells me an ending that I usually relish right up to the last day of my reading or the last minute of my viewing. I hate a good book or a good movie to come to an end so I pause, relish and enjoy. I do not tattle and tell. Boo-hoo. What a horrible accusation.

I will call my library tomorrow so that I can TELL the ending without having to read it. (while you are away from the computer.)

Can you imagine Dorothea being idle? Her problem is having too many irons in the fire. And why should she look at Casaubon with pity? Because it's a fine, saintly feeling. Dorothea is the pitying kind. It only remains to determine the motivation. She feels sorry for the poor. But that could be inbred as an aristocratic obligation. The rich hope to save their souls with philanthropic endeavours. She could look forward to doing a lot of charitable things as the wife of the vicar, possibly a future bishop. According to Mr Brooke.

I can see Will turning into a Mr Brooke. From what we have heard of Mr Brooke, he could have had a youth much like Will's. He interested himself in many things. Tried this and that. Now it's going to be politics.

Fred could turn out to be another clergyman like Cadwallader or Farebrother. Fred, no doubt will be very proud of his stable. As Farebrother is proud of his insect collection. And of course, Cadwallader is constantly 'gone fishin'. Are they any better than Casaubon?

Re: "If I had time on my hands, I think I'd learn a language"

That's exactly what I'm doing...amo, amas, amat, etc!!

Alliemae

p.s. can't wait till tomorrow...can't wait to know what everyone else is thinking now that we've returned 'home'!!

My reference to the Red Tent was a reference to a book discussion of that novel and how Alf and I saw somethings in a similiar light. Just chatting. Hope it didnt bother anyone.

I too am waiting to see what everyone thinks when they get "back home". faith

We're off and running to Middlemarch by morning.

http://www.google.com/search?q=Germany%2BRomaticism%2BArt+&hl=en&lr=&start=20&sa=N

Quote from Link: The term 'Romanticism' derives ultimately from ' Roman'. In particular it derives from the 'Romances' written during the Middle Ages, such as the Arthurian cycle. In English, the term 'Romantick' was often used in the 18th century to mean magical, dramatic, surprising. But it was not until the German poets and critics August Wilhelm and Friedrich Schlegel used the term that it became a label for a wider cultural movement. For the Schlegel brothers, 'Romanticism' was a product of Christianity. The culture of the Middle Ages created a Romantic sensibility which differed from the Classical ideals embodied in the philosophy, poetry and drama of ancient Athens. While ancient culture admired clarity, health and harmony, Christian culture created a sense of struggle between the dream of heavenly perfection and the experience of human inadequacy and guilt. This sense of struggle, vision and ever-present dark forces was allegedly present in Medieval culture. The Schlegel brothers were also responsible for making Shakespeare into an internationally famous writer, translating his work into German, and promoting his plays as the epitome of the Romantic sensibility. Many later Romantic dramatists sought to imitate Shakespeare and to reject Classical models for drama.

In Roman Catholic countries Romanticism was less pronounced than in Protestant Germany and Britain, and tended to develop later, after the rise of Napoleon. In France Romanticism is associated with the nineteenth century, particularly in the paintings of Theodore Gericault and Eugene Delacroix, the plays of Victor Hugo and the novels of Stendhal. The composer Hector Berlioz is also important.End Quote

I learned a good deal from reading this paper. I knew something about the music but less about fine art. faith

Thanks for the most interesting quote, Faith. It certainly makes it obvious what a complex concept lies hidden in the word Romanticism. Now I wonder more than ever, what is Eliot trying to say when she writes at the beginning of Chapter 19:

'Romanticism, which has helped to fill some dull blanks with love and knowledge...etc.'

Of course it's one more of a potpurri of ideas in that first paragraph of Chapter 19. It left me completely baffled by her mysterious train of thought. Perhaps it a practical demonstration of a Romantic approach. But Eliot is not not known as a Romantic, is she?

Whatever were those 'privacies of Windsor', over which George the Fourth was reigning, when Mrs Casaubon 'had taken her wedding journey to Rome? It did strike me as ominous that Mr Casaubon is already in a way being left out, leaving it to the reader to decide if he's going along.

Then, out of the blue, this curious statement:

'In those days the world in general was more ignorant of good and evil by forty years than it is in present.'

Is the author contemplating a dark cloud lowering over her heroine. Has Dorothea mated with Mephistopheles?

But it gets curiouser and curiouser:

'The most brilliant English critic of the day', whoever could that have been, and it must have been a historical person, since the author is talking about such, with the mention of King George and the Duke of Wellington,...this critic failed to see 'the tomb of the ascended Virgin' in the ornamental vase in the painting.

It's a fantastic first paragraph. Is it a lesson in Romanticism? Maybe Eliot is only teasing us, as JoanK suggests.

Hello All, I'm sorry not to have been here much this last week. I have been reading all your posts and am impressed with how many different points of view we have here.

I for one am glad that Will Ladislaw turned up in Rome since Dorothea was crying and moping about. I cannot, in my worst nightmare, imagine being married to someone like Casaubon, that dry twig/prig, who calls his wife "darling" or whatever it is, when he is most angry with her, and who--it turns out--isn't even much of a scholar.

He is the sort who is busily writing footnotes to footnotes--and we don't need any more of that kind. They bore you to death and want attention. Ick.

By the way, one of the interesting things that Eliott did before she began writing novels was to translate Stauss's Leben Jesu--The Life of Christ (1835). The Germans were heavily into the "new scholarship" on the Bible and this book was especially important. It dealt with Jesus the man rather than Jesus the Divine Son of God and it looked closely at the miracles in the gospel accounts. Strauss decided that they were mythical as in not real. The book caused a controversey.

Eliott translated it into English from the German. Can you imagine how well she learned her German in order to translate? Before she was a novelist, she was an editor and a translator. Very unusual for a woman in her day.

Anyway, I was reminded of her work translating when I read the section where Will suggests that Casaubon should have learned German since much work had already been done on his area but it was in German.

I don't think Dorothea would have been happy with Casaubon if Will had not come upon her. She had already asked her husband when he was going to write the book and had a very cold reception. They had their first quarrel and it was over his scholarship. I think D. doesn't want to admit to herself that her husband's life work hasn't been worth much and that there really isn't any role for her as helpmate in it. Casaubon is just too touchy.

He would be SOOOOO offended if D. offered to learn German in order to translate some of those articles that he should have read for him.

Alliemae--I'm looking forward to our next section too. Your enthusiasm is contagious!

Maryal

FAITH, I was caught by this phrase re. romanticism:

sense of struggle, vision and ever-present dark forces

This is, IMO, a prevailing theme of modern fantasy and sci/fi, and a reason I like them so well. It seems to me life is always a struggle, there are always 'dark forces' in the world, and it takes men and women of vision to combat them. I guess since the 'dark; side so often seems to be winning, I am comforted by reading of victories on the side of 'light'.

One of the reasons I love books like Eliot's, is that we can see people, personalities, developing. Some never grow beyond their petty beginnings, while others mature into strong, responsible persons.

Babi

Day tripper, thank you for post #571, where you discuss Dorothea, Ladislaw, and Casaubon. I hadn’t been thinking of the situation in quite the same way and liked being able to look at it from a different point of view.

Juday S., as for why a person allows himself to be painted when they are not saintly, I chalk Casaubon’s motives up to vanity and Dorothea’s up to boredom. She seemed to be looking for something to do those last few days and hanging out with the artists provided a diversion.

I agree with Andy that we have reached the turning point in Dorothea’s marriage to Casaubon.

I don’t think Dorothea is prideful. I think she comes across as such because she is so uptight and afraid of acting improperly. I think she will stick out her marriage, not so much out of pride, but because she hasn’t yet realized that what’s wrong in the marriage isn’t her fault.

When the newlyweds return home, I expect Casaubon will continue to research and see Dorothea only at mealtimes, expecting her to busy herself during the day.

Yes, let’s definitely add Farebrother to the “list” of characters who don’t deceive themselves.

I think the title of Book III is foreshadowing --- but I haven’t started tomorrow’s reading and you all are at the starting gate! I better get reading!

Sometimes I feel that I am out on some proverbial limb thinking like a fool.

I like the idea of NOt reading ahead (no matter what Ms. Pearson has accused me of). What would hapen if all of the sudden I started to like the old fool, Mr. C?

BABI:sense of struggle, vision and ever-present dark forces

Do you see any of that in Middlemarch? Is she a Romantic? An anti-Romantic?

The development of character s what I like, too. And I really can’t tell with many of the characters how they are going to develop. That is the suspense of the book, as much as what happens to them.

Who do you all think will change, and who will remain more or less the same?

LAURA: I agree with you about the turning point. But I think it would have happened sooner or later, even without Will. Thanks JOANP for the information on Eliot’s German translation. So She is putting her own ideas into Will’s mouth, on German Biblical study.

ALF: “Sometimes I feel that I am out on some proverbial limb thinking like a fool.” WHOA WHOA WHOA. I haven’t seen any fools in this discussion, and certainly not you!! It’s our different ideas that make this discussion so great!! Hey, I posted in Rembrandt’s Eyes that Bob Dylan was exactly like Rembrandt. Top that for out on a limb!!

Checking in from Memphis, Tenn....thought I'd get in some time on the computer, but son and wife have left me in the computer room with the three grands -4, 2 and 1. Each with a magic marker, one watercoloring my face - "make up"...

Loved your posts - just can't comment. You guys are fanatastic. I have a few things to say about the Germans, but they can wait...

No more "color" tonight...so now let's all tap on the computer keys while Meanma tries to type.

Guys, this isn't going to work...but I was able to bring up the questions for this week. Can't wait to get home...where I will miss the babies, but can play with you all. Have fun - and Andy, you behave!

GOOD MORNING: well,technically it won't be morning for 14 more minutes, but who's counting.

Here we are, back in Middlemarch. We seem to have beaten the Casaubons back. It's our magic train, I'm sure.

Now we'll follow Fred for awhile, while he tries to get out of money trouble. What do you think of his struggles? What did Eliot think? Do we need to stop shaking Dorothea and start shaking Fred? Let me know.

JOANP: I don't envy you, playing with your grandchildren (sob, sob). But I'll b seeing mine in a month.

Morning, Joan K and all early risers. Joan P is off with her beloved Grands and will no doubt check in to color our header, currently black and white and much in need of some watercolor markers.

I've been behind in our reading, but am currently reading the chapters for this week. So far, I have read the one on Fred and selling horses. Reading about Fred and the horse-trading I all of a sudden (or as several of my students write "all of the sudden"--grr) started thinking about used car salesmen. In the nineteenth century, horses were pretty much the cars, weren't they? And it would be a good idea to have an expert look under the hood (or in the horse's mouth or at his gait) and give you his opinion, wouldn't it?

Poor Fred doesn't seem to have much judgment at this point, but I do like him and it looks like he has a good heart.

I also noticed that though he enjoys gaming, especially billiards at which he has lost money, he doesn't drink while gambling. I consider this a good sign.

And he really does love Mary, with whom he played as a child. She was a "hoyden." Liked Eliot's use of this word because when I was small my mother used to tell me not to be a hoyden. It was her word for tomboy. It didn't work. I was one then and am now. Always wanting to be out in the sunshine instead of sewing by the fireside.

This week I'm teaching A Doll House, Ibsen's famous play. I got to thinking about dolls and playing house and how much I didn't like either activity when I was a child. It's a great play though; it comes alive even on the page.

Maryal

"Hey, I posted in Rembrandt’s Eyes that Bob Dylan was exactly like Rembrandt."

"Oh my," said Alliemae with chagrin, "you had to remind me that I posted on a lovely poem called 'The Red Wagon' in Paglia's Break, Blow, Burn group that the poem brought to my mind poor Don Corleone, the Godfather, finally getting some respite from his 'daily work'!!"

I don't know if George Eliot had it in mind but there is something about the way she describes her characters that has made me very introspective.

I can't tolerate Casaubon's insecurity and lack of sucess in social and personal relationships, and yet I can tolerate Fred's weaknesses, still feeling amiably toward him.

Meanwhile, I rail at God about my loneliness...and rail only mildly and only at myself for squandering and sometimes poor handling of money, and find ways to improve...clearly knowing it's MY responsibility.

I have heard it said that what we don't like in others is often a weakness we don't like to admit in ourselves...

I think I'll have to go through each of these characters again and again and maybe learn a lot more about myself!

I do like George Eliot...and I'm so glad to be 'home' and especially to have met Susan and Caleb Garth! What warm and wonderful and real folks!!

Alliemae

p.s. Have read a little more about Fred: how he explains about the money and who's discomfort he is most conscious of...and I'm NOT feeling quite as 'amiably' towards him as I did above!

And if Mary does marry Fred if he gets the estate well, she has made that sort of decision before, hasn't she...when she decided to wait on Featherstone rather than be bothered teaching, as it gave her only moments of extreme distaste and many free moments of pleasure.

We shall see...Alliemae

A few quiet moments...only one two year old here today with his magic marker. At least I can keep one eye on him, one on the screen.

I too was surprised to see that the " Waiting for Death" chapter - did not follow Dorothea and her pallid husband home to Middlemarch. I thought surely we'd be attending to Casaubon. So, while we leave the honeymooners to settle in for winter (brrr), we return to see how Fred is handling his gambling debt. Weren't you calling to him, Fred, don't do it! Don't do it! How could he be SO gullible? Not once, not twice...

Alliemae, I'm with you - Fred is so thoughtless in asking Caleb Garth to cover his loan. I find I'm less forgiving and more irritated by him all the time. His "good heart" - well, please, tell me what you see. Is Eliot sympathetic towards him? She writes that he has no concept of money and spending. Is she excusing him because this is the way he was brought up? Is she blaming Vincy?

I'm wondering why Caleb Garth, who seems to know him better than anyone, believes that Fred will pay him back. What does his misplaced trust say about Caleb Garth?

Maryal, if Fred loves Mary so much, how could he ask her to go to Featherstone and ask (beg) for the money that she now knows was borrowed from her own father? How DARE he? Notice he hasn't approached his own father yet - who is much better off than Caleb Garth!

I didn't have time to see what went up last night...no color? I'm not surprised...the colors were all over the floor here. I'm glad it got fixed...thank you, Tech fairy!

Tomorrow, maybe!

I like Fred, too, but I think he's a pretty hopeless case. What on earth was the matter with his parents??!! They raised such spoiled brats. Well, at least Fred is nice - quite a sweetheart, actually. But, such a nincombpoop (sp?) sometimes. The horse deal. For heaven's sake! You just knew he was going to flub up the money situation. And he does have a gambling addiction. Mary seems stuck on him. If that is the case, I think she's asking for trouble. Fred doesn't always seem to fully understand how he can hurt others with his mishaps.

I feel differently about Fred's gambling than about Farebrother's. Fred seems like an addict. I don't think we will see him able to stop gambling. Farebrother seems to gamble out of desperation for money. I'm not sure that he likes it. He doesn't strike me as an addict the way Fred does.

I think life is definitely a balancing act between the yin and the yang..light and dark....good and evil. Yes and Romanticism as a movement was trying to show that and I think Eliot was influenced by this movement and saw it as one of the momentous changes in society. She saw through the eyes of an artist rather than a technocrat who might have said the changes were more due to a technological society beginning to replace agrarian society.

I cant think of Fred as a "type" as he doesn't fit my idea of an addicted gambler. Rather he seems to be deluded (not facing reality)regarding his gambling. And he is a weak man who depends on females for his sense of self. His mother, who is primarily responsible for his character though a good strong father might have changed him before he got in so many money fixes. I do not like Fred at this point and cant see that he is good hearted just because he is kind to Mary Garth .

The horse is a symbol of Freds foolishness and his spendthrift ways. This whole affair proves Fred is totally irresponsible at this point in his life. I can only hope he can be one of the characters that "change" as he grows older. faith

ALLIE MAE: The Godfather! OK, you have me beat!

“Fred: explains about the money and who's discomfort he is most conscious of...and I'm NOT feeling quite as 'amiably' towards him as I did above! “ This scene was so painful to me, and so realistic, I could hardly read it. I’ve been the weak minded sucker who put her dreams on hold to bail out a spendthrift. And Eliot made very clear to me what I’ve always sensed – that such people feel remorse, but only in terms of what people will think of them. It never occurs to them that they are doing real harm to other peoples lives. Fred has a moment of realizing that for the first time, and I was beginning to feel hope for him. But then he goes to Mary, and is miffed when her reaction is in terms of the effect on her parents. To him, it’s all about him.

He is a type: I know it well – not of the gambling addict, but of the spendthrift. There definitely seems to be a pattern to spendthriftiness. I’ve known several, and they are all just like Fred. They are always very friendly, openhearted. When they have money, they give it to others freely. This seems to be part of their attitude toward money – it’s no problem to give money away, since more will always come along. This also keeps their friends “sweet”, so when they need money, they can “borrow” it. They are always going to be able to pay you back “tomorrow”. Somehow, tomorrow never comes.

ALLIE MAE: your post really made me think. I've been doing the same thing, complaining about things that are really under my control. It's easier to complain than to take charge of my life.

I'm a hopeless optimist when it comes to young men with foolishness rather than corruptness. I blame the parents, along with Marni who wrote, "What on earth was the matter with his parents??!! They raised such spoiled brats." Fred can't ask his father for money because then his father would know how irreponsible his behavior is, plus he was supposed to stay at college and take a degree. He is not in his father's good graces at the moment.

If Fred is a type, he is a type of the foolish young man and there is always hope that they will grow up and become responsible if they learn their lesson. It seems Fred hasn't learned his yet.

Also, somewhere in the first chapter of this week's reading we are told that Fred always thought of his father as a last resort, assured that if he got in REAL trouble, his father could be turned to. He doesn't seem to have any idea that Dad's money might be limited.

As for bad parenting, Rosamond is a better example. She has been given ideas that are not healthy for a beautiful girl. She thinks that she can trip lightly up several classes despite the fact that class still mattered a great deal--and she might have learned this in that finishing school of hers where she was NOT snapped up by brothers of her friends, despite her beauty.

Joan P--The coloring reference was to the black and white "Middlemarch" from the first edition, not to the lovely rose. The heading is fine, m'dear.

Here's Fred's thought about his father:

Of what might be the capacity of his father's pocket, Fred had only a vague notion: was not trade elastic? And would not the deficiencies of one year be made up for by the surplus of another? The Vincys lived in an easy profuse way, not with any new ostentation, but according to the family habits and traditions, so that the children had no standard of economy, and the elder ones retained some of their infantine notion that their father might pay for anything if he would." (from Chap. 23, near the beginning; italics mine)

Maryal

Ah, we are back with the ever optimistic, and totally unrealistic, dear Fred. It's a pity he ever had 'expectations'; it has pretty well ruined him. I see his gambling as just another aspect of his deep-seated conviction that things are bound to go well for him. He has this notion that life is bound to turn out well for pleasant young gentlemen like himsef. How he can cling to that notion in the face of all that has not gone well is hard to conceive. Perhaps being the cause of harm to the Garths will turn his thinking around. One can only hope.

Having met the elder Garths, I find I like them greatly. These are two of the finest characters in the book, IMO. I dearly hope something will happen to restore the money lost by Fred's thoughtless selfishness.

Babi

PS: As regards Q3., I don't believe for a minute that Mary's attitude toward Fred would change if he inherits the estate. If Fred himself does not change, he is perfectly capable of spending his way thru' the entire estate without a thought for the future, and Mary knows that perfectly well. IMO, Mary will never consider marrying Fred unless he himself makes some serious changes in his attitude.

Babi

Babi--I agree. Someone who can go through whatever money there is can exhaust an estate in short order. I'm hoping along with you that Fred will see the error of his ways--maybe because of the Garths he will?

Joank I too have had a run in with a person like Fred regarding money who did gamble but like you said so clearly was really just a remorseless spendthrift. Money always came easy with guile to this person whose manner and demeanor was easy, friendly, open and appeared trustworthy but was not. I think my acquaintance thought of his-self just as Fred does "not so bad look at how bad others are!!"

I do agree that the Garths are very good people and hard working. Mr. Garth has a good bit of advice on how a relationship changes from courting to marriage. They may look at marriage as all a holiday but it soon turns into hard work. That is universal failure of people in the courtship phase of a relationship then and now. faith

This novel shifts viewpoints and provides insights by altering in slight degrees how we view the characters and how the author and the community see the characters. Earlier we talked about the viewpoint of the person narrating the tale. Eliot's ambiguity draws us into active judgement on the characters - an example is Dorothea, don't you sometimes feel sympathetic towards her and sometimes very irked? I do.

And this shifting also corresponds to my own shifting judgements on the characters (and myself and others) which forces me to think through the basis for my own judgements. Clever lady.

This way Eliot creates a rich 'stew' and by avoiding simple stereotypes which are possible, even easy, she activates us.

FAITH: so you know what I'm talking about. I don't know if such people mean to be untrustworthy: I think they fool themselves as well as others. We have our fingers and toes crossed for Fred, but without much hope -- and hope Mary will stay away from him unless/until he settles down.

BBC: excellent point about her shifting viewpoint. I hadn't thought of it that way, but you're exactly right. And it keeps us hooked, doesn't it.

Someone once asked why Mary was at Mr. Featherstones. Now that we've met her family, we can understand better. They are poor. Women from poor but genteel families who don't marry didn't have a lot of choices. The only occupation felt to be suitable for them was governess. Their only other choice was to live as a "poor relation" with relatives who were better off. Literature is full of such "poor relation" characters. Austen readers will remember Fanny(was that her name?) in Mansfield Park.

The status of these women was somewhere between a family member and a servant. Where between depends on the people involved. Mr. Farebrother's sister and aunt are in the same position as Mary: poor relations being taken care of by a not so poor relative. The difference between their position in the family and Mary's says a lot about the characters involved.

If Mary doesn't marry and isn't left an income in THE WILL she can look forward to a lifetime of being a "poor relation". This shows even more her strength of character in refusing Fred. Why she would prefer this to being a governess, is hard to understand. I have a feeling that Eliot didn't care much for children.

So glad I'm not the only one who knew a 'Fred'...let's call it a Learning Experience...

I do, after reading back about the Vincy's again, begin to understand Fred a little better. His parents in their 'fairly new good life' would have been lenient with their children, wanting them to have the life of the 'well-fixed'. It's just that each person is also born with their own little personalities IMO and that would explain why Fred and Dorothea act out differently in their quest and zest for life.

Alliemae

When I said 'teacher' about Mary Garth...I should have said 'governess'...oh well...both about children...maybe JoanK you are right on target when you say, "I have a feeling that Eliot didn't care much for children."

"Fred's character? Does he represent a type?"

I was thinking about this on my way to sleep last night!! And as close as I can come it's a cross between PINOCCHIO and PETER PAN, with a little bit of Will thrown in with regards to Fred's adoration for Mary. But believe it or not, I believe that Fred's feelings for Mary Garth are based on much more reality than Will could possibly have based his feelings for Dorothea on at this early point of their 'meetings'. (Actually I don't even feel free to call it a relationship yet.)

Fred seems to be without character. And that, of course, has Mary worried. Under normal circumatances he would seem to be an attractive, eligible bachelor, as the eldest son of a wealthy man. She obviously does not have that ingrained confidence and those 'assets of hopefulness' that carry Fred through the most difficult situations.

What a marvellous portrayal of the dream world of Fred Vincy, accustomed to a wealty lifestyle, growing up in the Vincy household, with both father and mother indulging themselves, gratifying their desires, passing their values along to their children. They've succeeded very well with Rosamond. She's on her way to an even better life, if she has her way.

Poor Fred is going nowhere. He's in love with a childhood playmate. He's also in love with the good life, with strange notions that it should be possible to enjoy it without being too concerned about how it will be paid for. He has nothing. Except for this confidence and an endless, unwarranted hopefulness that will supply the 'funds'.

The basis for this cashless hopefulness? What a fanciful list that Eliot provides. This peculiar hopefulness,

'is a COMFORTABLE DISPOSITION leading us to expect that

'the wisdom of providence,

'or the folly of our friends,

'the mysteries of luck,

'or the still greater mystery of our high individual value in the universe, will bring about agreeable issues, such as are consistent with our good taste in costume, and our general preference for the best style of thing.' p179

How fortunate that there is someone like Mary to straighten him out. His family is of no use to him. His father bullys him. His mother coddles him. His sister Rosamond? She is a good accompanist when he's having fun with his flute.

Perhaps a 'present from his uncle', 'a run of luck' in swapping horses.... And finally there is Mr Garth. He's chosen, simply because he's the least disagreeable to ask for money! His wealty, idle friends would find his concern about money contemptible. What a sophisticated way to avoid being asked.What a dream world.

Alliemae, I've turned introspective while reading these chapters too - wishing I'd been the wife and mother Susan Garth was. Now, I'm wondering if she isn't painted as too much of a "saint" - (trying to let myself off the hook for not quietly accepting all my husbands weaknesses.) She has such self-contol - she seems tireless and doesn't ever share confidences with other women! Weren't the pair just too perfect? I love the portrayals of both Susan and Caleb. Neither wishes a Fred-Mary marriage - for different reasons.

Mary is a puzzle to me. I think Eliot is purposely keeping us guessing about her, where she gives us a thorough portrayal of her parents. The old "Eliot ambiguity" bbc speaks about. Mary does assure her father she would never engage herself with anyone who waited for others to provide for him - while self-indulging as he waited.

Faith, thanks for constantly reminding us of the changing society during this period in history. I would imagine that there are many Freds - not prepared for the industrial changes, for the shifts from the old guard to the new. There must have been many Freds waiting to inherit what was left of dwindling fortunes. And there were probably many like Fred in that "dream world," Flora, hoping to inherit something, even when there were many in line for the same "mystery of luck" ... Why does Fred believe that HE stands to inherit old Featherstone's fortune over all the others expecting the same? I'd think that Mary would have an equal chance, unless women were not eligible to inherit. Certainly more worthy. Mary never once dreams that she is entitled to anything more than her wages...

You all have added to my understanding of Fred. Still I think he is a "type" and they were called "ner'do wells" in my family and it was applied to just such people as dear Fred. Of course they must have that charm, that open friendliness and seeming sorrow at causing others discomfort otherwise the flow of generosity would stop very soon.

The Vinces are upset that Mr. Wrench seems to have misdiagnosed Fred's illness. I can not tell myself if Fred has Scarlet Fever or Typhoid. I think to get Typhoid fever he would have had to drink bad water or eat food contaminated by a carrier.Still medical knowledge at that time may not have had a way to diagnose this illness.. What ever his illness it certainly does bring Lydgate into frequent contact with Rosamond. Mrs Vince is upset entirely and wants Lydgate for their permanent physician which causes a rife in the medical politics of such a small town.Faith

ALLIE MAE: good point. Fred is the only one of the suitors who really knows his beloved.. And, of course, she really knows him. Maybe that bodes well for them. Although Faith is right, they were called ne’er-do-wells in my family too.

FAITH: I think you are right: medical knowledge was not at all developed at that time. Most of the “cures” that were used we now realize are useless. It’s more luck than Lydgate’s skill that Fred survived.

We forget how quickly medical knowledge has grown. I had scarlet fever when I was a child, and the whole house was quarantined. There were no antibiotics, so I was just left to recover as best I could. My mother was the only one who could see me, and she had to scrub down every time she left. It was a lonely time.

Re: "There must have been many Freds waiting to inherit what was left of dwindling fortunes."

I think I have forgotten quite a bit in a short period of time. But, I was thinking that Fred's family was more nouveau riche. His father is a businessman. They rely on his work income and investments. Fred's father either brings in the bacon or they don't have it. And it doesn't sound like his business is doing all that well. The family is hoping that Fred inherits from another relative, Featherstone, not from his immediate family.

Here is a different view of Fred and Mary. The two were childhood friends, but Mary was forced to grow up and Fred wasn't. Mary is the Rock of that good childhood they shared . Fred is beginning to realize his shortcomings and the world is imposing on him to try and deal with them. This is a novel of becomings and realizations and growing up. Will Fred be up to the challenge of becoming "good enough" so Mary can continue to love him(or love him openly)? In real life people don't usualy change that much but this is a romantic novel , so the skys the limit.

Mary is such a goody two shoes that she may be allowed a vice. The vice is perhaps named Fred. Or perhaps "a good womans love" will be the catalyst to change him or help him grow up. Again the author keeps us in suspense as to what events will effect these characters and influence their choices.

I fear the only one who will not change is Causabon and that is because Eliot sees him too old to change, too entrenched in his life of being something other than he thinks he is or should be.

Oh, what a tangled web our Author weaves!

Judy

Everyone seems to think that Fred is old Featherstone's favorite. We're told often what a fine fellow Fred is, 'so good-tempered', 'an affectionate fellow', 'a gay young fellow'. Only his father finds him exasperating. Probably something in Fred that the old man could relate to. His chances do look good when Featherstone dies. And the waiting has begun

In the meantime Fred has really messed up his life over that unfortunate debt. The horse swapping is a disaster, but at least the reader gets to know Horrock and Bambridge, the vet and the horse dealer respectively. The three of them travelling to the horse fair is entertaining humor, as good as anything by Dickens. Imagine Fred, trying to outguess or outwit these two old horsemen. But what Fred loses in the horsetrading, he more than makes up for by picking up the fever on the way to inspect the 'winning' horse. Along the way he has to travel along a 'back street where you might as easily have been poisoned without expense of drugs as in any grim street of that unsanitary period.' And with that he sets in motion the events which bring Dr Lydgate into the Vincy house often enough to cure the patient and to seal his own fate.

I find it so interesting that Susan Garth, the mainstay of the family, the moral center, with her multi-tasking capabilities:

'This morning she was carrying out several occupations at once - making pies at the table, supervising a daughter's movements at the oven, giving lessons to her youngest boy and girl, and running back and forth to the tub and washer in the corner!

And it soon becomes apparent that without her counselling her husband Caleb would be victimized by an unscrupulous world...how in all this can she teach that her sex was 'framed to be entirely subordinate'?

Eliot can't be serious, after such a good demonstration of what she mentioned early in the book: that men stand in need of female direction. Flora

Re: Fred, Horrock and Bambridge:

"...as good as anything by Dickens..."

YES! Thank you!!

I knew that story looked so familiar. I agree totally...

and then the bit about the trip down the back alleys, etc. after which he becomes so ill and brings Lydgate in this close and frequent touch with Rosamond...

how clever this writer is...how well this was all set up!!!

I wonder. Is Susan Garth an 'enabler' maybe? And does she regret it at all? Why is she against Mary marrying Fred? Is it possible she doesn't want her daughter 'to be like her'--an 'enabler' and to have the life that she, Susan, leads??? I have absolutely no doubts that Susan and Caleb love each other, but I'm not sure their relationship is as uncomplicated as I was thinking. Think I'll go back to that bit and rethink my thoughts...

Oh my, aren’t we being a bit too harsh on poor Freddy? ”Since it occurred, a change had come over Fred’s sky, which altered his view of the distance…” The poor guy has had life by the – well- up until now he’s led a privileged existence, coming and going as he pleased, seeking self-pleasure and keeping up with all of the joyous activities until now! He’s growing up; he’s failed miserably, not only in his exams but also in his promises that he’s made. He’s distraught, “worried and wearied”. I think that this dilemma lays heavy on his heart. He tried to make up the money by his “horse” transactions, but to no avail.
Perhaps, I’ve a bit of Mrs. Garth in me. She adores the guy, “has a motherly feeling towards him and had always been disposed to excuse his errors, though she would probably not have excused Mary for engaging herself to him…. Why is Mrs. Garth so much more inclined toward the male species than that of her own?

Seeking penitence from Mary, Fred relates his sad story. Now his sad story becomes hers but her “pity for him surmounted her anger and all her other anxieties.” She recognizes that he looks ill but admonishes him anyway (and rightly so.) “As if it were not very painful to me to see you an idle frivolous creature. How can you bear to be so contemptible, when others are working and striving and there are so many things to be done-how can you bear to be fit for nothing in the world that is useful? And with so much good in your disposition, Fred, you might be worth a great deal.” Ouch! What greater pain than to be chastised by the one you love?

day tripper: "Everyone seems to think that Fred is old Featherstone's favorite."

I have wondered, more than once, if Featherstone might leave quite a chunk to Mary. He knows how Fred feels about her, right? and...he does like Fred, in spite of it all...I wonder.....

and ALF...you have given me MUCH to think about regarding Fred...thanks...back to my review of those pages too...

I love Eliot's characters and her development of them...I think that we, the readers, are the lucky ones Eliot really loves!!!

Re: "Everyone seems to think that Fred is old Featherstone's favorite."

Featherstone is a strange duck. He seems to like to put things over on people. Since everyone, especially Fred, is expecting Featherstone to leave much of his estate to Fred, I'm guessing this could blow up in Fred's face. Fred is taking a lot for granted.

Marni

marni--I don't trust old Featherstone either, certainly not to leave Fred anything. The old man has no pleasure in life except making people wonder to whom he will leave his money and estate. All those endless codicils that he threatens to make. I don't think Fred should count on a thing from Featherstone. Money would only make him continue in his "ne'er-do-well" ways, wouldn't it?

ALF--Hey, I've been Fred's defender from the get-go. I expect him to give up his spendthrift ways but maybe only after he gets knocked about a bit more.

Meanwhile, I love the title of this group of chapters--"Waiting for Death." It didn't occur to me until I read the posts above that we are waiting for Featherstone to die. I've been waiting for Casaubon to die. Don't like him and don't see his relationship with Dorothea going anywhere at all, other than down.

Maryal

Hey Deems, maybe we could choose which old geezer goes first. Personally I vote for Mr. C to meet his ancestors so that D. can get on with her life.

I must say, I liked this last section of reading so much! The story is moving along (there is a plot!), people are going places and talking to each other, and more is “happening” in general. I did get a laugh out of this line from the intrusive narrator though (Ch. XXIII, pg. 221 B&N edition), “(pardon these details for once --- you would have learned to love them if you had known Caleb Garth).” Now she says to pardon her! And I actually was enjoying the description of Caleb! LOL

My opinion of Fred and his actions are much the same as others’. I gasped when Eliot told us “Fred was not a gambler.” However, upon reading further, I have to agree --- he is overly optimistic, has poor judgement, a lack of self control, and lives in his own world without consideration as to how his actions affect others. As Mary Garth says (pg. 241), “But selfish people always think their own discomfort of more importance than anything else in the world.” I would hope that Fred can change. I think he is realizing how his actions have affected the Garths, but whether he puts this knowledge to use is another question.

I was very surprised that Mary’s attitude toward Fred changed. I couldn’t believe it, even when I read on page 242, “There is often something maternal even in a girlish love and Mary’s hard experience had wrought her nature to an impressibility very different from that hard slight thing which we call girlishness. At Fred’s last words she felt an instantaneous pang, something like what a mother feels at the imagined sobs or cries of her naughty truant child, which may lose itself and get harm. And when, looking up, her eyes met his dull despairing glance, her pity for him surmounted her anger and all her other anxieties.”

As Babi commented, I don’t think this means Mary will consider marrying Fred right now. She is looking for a change in his behavior.

Also, Allimae’s idea that Susan Garth is an enabler and Mary may follow fits in very nicely here. Gosh, I hope Mary keeps her head about her!

JUDY, I just can't see Mary Garth as a 'goody two-shoes'. She is far too blunt and straighforward to be that prissy little miss. Nor is she simply a 'poor relation' dependent on Featherstone. She is housekeeper and manager for Stone Court, and IMO, more than earning her place. Actually, I would think it far more realistic and practical that Featherstone should leave the property to her.

I was pleased to find, at last, something more worthwhile in Rosamond than her prettiness and manners. "Her presence of mind and adroitness in carrying out his hints were admirable.."

The relationship between Lydgate and Rosamond is obviously headed for disaster. He still sees himself as unable to marry, and regards his actions toward Rosamond as merely a light flirtation, not to be taken seriously. Rosamond, meanwhile, while behaving with perfect propriety, has already picked out the house and is planning its furnishing. Oops!

Babi

Hi Babi

I will pull for Mary being a goody two shoes still. She loves her Mama, she adores her Papa, she worries about her siblings, she gives unstintingly of herself for others, she is quite intelligent and reads more than any one else in the story, and is sunny without being nauseatingly so. The author has piled all these things on her I know. Yet she loves Fred and must hurt others opinions of her to follow up on this. Will she have the courage to do so if Fred doesn't change? Its a no brainer if he does change. Then there is no dramatic tension in the plot. Our beloved GE sets us Moral Questions in the plot:i.e. "What would you do under these circumstances?"

Remember this was a story that came out in parts with a bit of time between them. The readers must always be left with questions and subjects to discuss just as we are doing. Remember "Who shot J.R.?" The buzz was the thing that made it so memorable. GE is a master story teller as well as a student of the political and social world around her. What a great read this book is!

Judy

Although the research I am finding online names Typhoid Fever way back to the 16th century, it also states that it was not described or named until the late 19th C well after Queen Victoria's Prince Albert died from it in 1859*, by Sir Willam Jenner. "...and Karl J. Erbert discovered the first cause of this disease in the late 19th century (Typhoid Fever)**.”

“During the 19th century it was a major problem, especially in the overcrowded sections…that had no sewage system apart from open gutters and easily infected water supplies until the provison of piped water.

Sometimes confused with typhus as both share common symptom of a high fever -also sometimes went under the name 'English Cholera'.” *

http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/famhist/genealgy/diseases.htm *

http://athena.english.vt.edu/~jmooney/3044annotationspz/typhoid.html **

GE is such a good writer she has really entrapped me in the lives of her characters. I am amused by the physicians and really laughing at Dorthea and Lydgates misunderstanding of each others interest. I do not see much discussion of these further incidents so will hold off on my comments for a day or two. Faith

It makes me happy to see others being drawn into this novel. Who was it who called it a novel for adults? Some important writer if I remember correctly. Henry James?

One of the advantages to the novel being as long as it is, other than allowing the author to introduce a number of characters and several different plot lines, is that as we read Eliot for a while, we get used to the intrusive narrator. Sometimes I even miss that voice when it goes away! I'm thoroughly used to it now.

Sort of like Shakespeare. Read a couple of plays and I'll bet you can read several more without much trouble.

It's all in the getting used to, I think.

And it helps that both are very good authors.

Maryal

I don't feel that Mrs. Garth is presented in the book as an "enabler." (I think of an enabler in a derogatory way - such as the wife of an alcoholic who contributes to that person's continued use and abuse of the substance - making excuses for the afflicted person and/or supplying the person with the alcohol.)

Mr. Garth is one of the very good, kind and genuine characters in the book. He had been prosperous at one time in his "avocations" of surveyor, valuer, and agent, but he failed in the building business.

Garth liked "good practical schemes, accurate work, and the faithful completion of undertakings." But, he could not manage finances. Also, Caleb Garth trusted humankind "when they had not proved themselves untrustworthy." He apparently could not turn down someone in need, if he trusted that person. And so, he lent Fred the money.

Mr. Garth's "honourable exertions had won him due esteem." He "was one of those precious men within his own district whom everybody would choose to work for them, because he did his work well, charged very little, and often declined to charge at all. It is no wonder, then, that the Garths were poor, and 'lived in a small way.' However, they did not mind it."

I think Mrs. Garth genuinely loves her husband, understands his strengths and weaknesses, and accepts him for what he is. She has accepted the life she leads with him and her delightful family, although not always happily and quietly.

She does tell him off. When she discovers that he lent Fred money that is lost, she is sharp with her husband. She says, "You must give up your bad habits. Some men take to drinking, and you have taken to working without pay. You must indulge yourself a little less in that...." And she gives her husband the difficult job of asking Mary for her savings.

Marni

Yes, we are all being drawn into the book and it's characters more and more, aren't we. I realize I have been thinking about them as if they were real people, not fictional characters subject to the author's manipulations. I rarely get caught up that much in a novel --that is a tribute to Eliot.

And what fun we are having (at least I am) getting caught up together.

I agree with those who think that Mrs. Garth is an enabler. But you can enable good behavior as well as bad, and she enables his kindness as well as his impracticality. The thing I find it hard to forgive Fred for is that he goes to the Garths and Mary even after he realizes how serious the consequences are for them, rather than his father, who he believes could supply the money without hurting himself, because he wants to avoid a scene with his father.

I am glad to read that you all are feeling much more “into the book” now too! As I mentioned in my last post, I found this last section of reading to be easier and smoother going than the previous section. What is funny is that I find I have much less to say about this section than I have about other sections. In prior weeks, I was always scrambling to get in a few more comments, but not this week. How odd! Is anyone else feeling that about this section?

Thank you Marni for reminding me that Mrs. Garth is sharp with her husband and does give him the dirty work of talking to Mary. Given the times, I think her actions were harsh, or at least harsher than I initially perceived.

This whole business of Drs. Wrench and Lydgate is funny to me. Getting a second opinion is not a big deal these days. It seems to be much harder on the conscious to have a new person do your hair than to look after your health. I really feel like I need more information on what is really going on with the doctors in Middlemarch. Hopefully we will get some more information soon (which in this book, would be in 100 pages or so! LOL).

Also, what about the title of this section of the book, Waiting for Death? I thought we would be waiting for Casaubon to die. Maybe it was Fred we were waiting for to die!

More questions than answers from me this morning…

Eloise: " Who was it who called it a novel for adults?"

My very thoughts! So many times as I read about Mary and Fred I was reminded of Jo and Laurie in Little Women...only 'for adults'!!

Alliemae

I don't see Mrs. Garth in that light at all. I see her as the matriarch. She is in charge.
Let there be no doubt about that. I envision her as a maternal, Irish, sober caretaker. She runs the show, gives the orders, manages the household with great efficiency, and expects conformity. Doesn't an enabler facilitate misbehavior? Heck, I don't see the Mrs. condoning any impropriety.

I think to say that Fred knew of the consequences of borrowing money from the Garths is a stretch, since Fred at this point in his life seems to have very little concept of 'consequences' or 'other people's interests' - sadly - since he is beloved by so many good-hearted people.

I think Virginia Woolf said that this is a novel for adults: on the back of my Penquin Classics copy is this: "George Eliot creates a richly nuanced and moving drama, hailed by Virgina Woolf as 'one of the few English novels written for grown-up people'."

I have read far ahead in my childish desire for plot fulfillment and have to be limited in what I contribute. I am learning much from this group of involved readers and thereby enjoying this novel more.

Thank you, BBC, Virginia Woolf is the origin of the quote. Now I don't have to spend time today tracking it down!

Anyway, for me, Mrs. Garth is a caretaker, matriarch (like those words, Andy) and not an enabler. That word, so popular in alcoholism treatment circles has very negative meaning for me because I have been one.

Nothing wrong with being stable and responsible, is there?

Maryal, who is off to have coffee with pedln.

I meant Maryel, not Eloise when I quoted about the story 'for adults'...

Good morning! I've enjoyed catching up with your posts this morning and continue to be amazed at the things you pick up on that escape my attention. Like you, bbc, I am learning much and enjoying more. It occurs to me after reading 30+ posts, that your opinions vary based on what page you are reading! Isn't it delicious the way Eliot is so easily manipulating our sympathies. You think you understand a character and form an opinion, only to learn more about him/her under the surface a few pages later and you do an about-face! Before long we'll be falling all over "poor Casaubon!"

I am so happy that so many of you have become hooked into the story and will stay with us to the end of Book VIII. You bring so much, every one of you! You are pointing out interesting themes we really need to keep in mind as we read further ~

* "This is a novel of becomings and realizations and growing up In real life people don't usualy change that much but this is a romantic novel , so the skys the limit." Judy, you think Eliot sees Casaubon as too old - how old is too old to change? (I'm thinking of 27 year old Dr. Lydgate...)

"How can she (Susan Garth) teach that her sex was 'framed to be entirely subordinate'?" (Flora) As much as we all admire her, aren't you beginning to wonder with Flora ("The author can't be serious"), what Eliot is telling us by painting Susan Garth as the ideal for all women at this time? Andy asks, "Why is Mrs. Garth so much more inclined toward the male species than that of her own?" Isn't this what society demanded back then? The question is, how did our author feel about this situation?

ps I returned from Memphis too late to get to Pedln's for coffee this morning, Maryal, but do need some of my own. JoanK, did you get to go? I'll be back in a few minutes with a few brief comments on your numerous posts...

What a little conniver is our young Rosamond to make Lydgate feel like an “ill worked puppet, all the while her family remains in quarantine. ”…yet it seemed that the brief impersonal conversations they had together were creating that peculiar intimacy which consists in shyness. The were obliged to look at one another in speaking and somehow the looking could not be carried through as the matter of course which it really was.”
I love the way Eliot writes of this budding romance between the two characters. “There was no help for this is science…”
That is funny --who is to help the hopeless romantic? Who is to help the love stricken fool?

Lydgate fell- hook, line and sinker, beguiled by an enchanting voice and a pretty face.

Good grief, slow down woman. Oct. 22nd is fast approaching and you need to sit down, take a breather and meditate. No, not think about the wedding- meditate!

Alliemae, thanks for sleuthing for information on typhoid fever. ("Karl J. Erbert discovered the first cause of this disease in the late 19th century.") I'm trying to decide if Dr. Lydgate's ability to cure Fred was pure "luck" as JoanK sees it, or if he is ahead of his time in knowing the way to treat fever. (Remember that "Fever" is his field of investigation) He seems to be successful "curing everybody" as Rosamund tells her mother. I'm not sure if it's luck if he can cure more than once or twice.

Maryal, I love the title too - because it is so ambiguous - the author leaves the door open once again. I didn't think of waiting for Featherstone to die, but clearly Fred has thought about it. Why on earth did Mrs. Vincy suggest to him when he was burning up with fever that if he lived, and Featherstone died, he could marry anyone he wanted. We all know whom he wants to marry - including Mrs. V. And we know she doesn't want him to marry Mary Garth. I guess this is just her way of giving him reason to live. Why is the author repeating the reference to Niobe in reference to Mrs. Vincy..."her Niobe throat convulsed." Fred seems to be coming along well following Dr. Lydgate's instructions, but still. Laura writes, "I thought we would be waiting for Casaubon to die. Maybe it was Fred we were waiting for to die!" Are you still waiting or have you scratched him off your list of suspected impending deaths?

Even IF Fred lives, and even IF Featherstone dies and leaves estate - (a very big IF), we seem to agree that Mary will not marry him. Will Caleb Garth's advice to his daughter stay with her - can't you hear Eliot advising all women through his words when he tells Mary, "a woman has to put up with the lot of the man she marries" - he's telling her how it is, and advises that she marry a man with principles. Can Fred acquire "principles" - or is it too late for that? Are you still optimistic that Fred will eventually find happiness?

Off to meditate on what is really important in preparing for son's wedding...and will leave the budding romance, non-romance to the rest of you (between Rosamund and the flirtatious doctor - I have my own ideas on which of the two has open eyes and will prevail. Babi, Andy, which of the two seems more determined - or has more to lose if there is no engagement? The answer to that will probably determine what happens next!

JUDY, I wonder if we have a different sense of what is meant by a "goody two-shoes". I looked it up, and it originally referred to a very nice, very good person, 'perhaps a little too good'. Mary Garth is of course and very principled person; I balk at the 'a little too good'. The definition I read closed with this observation:

As you might guess, the term has acquired a negative aura; someone too nice to be completely sincere." From "Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Allusions" by Elizabeth Webber and Mike Feinsilber (Merriam-Webster,)

I do see Mary Garth as completely sincere.

MARNI, I wholly agree with your assessment of Mrs. Garth. And who was it that said one could also be an enabler for good? (Sorry. If I fail to jot down a note I forget everything!) That was a very thoughtful observation.

JOAN asked, "which of the two seems more determined - or has more to lose if there is no engagement? I assume you're referring to Fred and Mary. I would readily say Mary is more determined; Fred does not seem to bring determination into any facet of his life at this point. As to who has more to lose, that's a bit tougher. Assuming Fred inherits, Mary stands to lose a prosperous, but potentially unhappy life. Fred loses Mary, and if he does not change his ways, his inheritance will will not last long. I've got to say Fred will be the greater loser.

BAbi

A split decision. It was my thought that the one who is more determined, the one who has the most to lose would pervail. You prove me wrong. How about Tertius Lydgate and Rosamund? Which of these two has more to lose if there is no engagement? Which is more determined to make it happen?

I need to say, I love the Garths...the relationship that they have...in spite of the fact that Eliot seems to be somewhat critical of Susan's subserviant role. Did you notice though, that Caleb could not bring him to tell his wife that he had made the loan (bad judgment error) to Fred, thus risking his own son's future as an apprentice? I loved the understated way Eliot described the change in her face when Caleb tells her - "like a change below the surface of water which remains smooth."

Joan P--Somewhere back there, you wondered if Eliot meant Mrs. Garth's views of the place of women to be taken in by her readers and if she agreed with them.

It seems Mrs. Garth does see women as distinctly subservient to men--and yet she believes that not as much can be expected of men (because after all men have their little ways). I think that what Mrs. Garth believes is most likely echoing the sort of thing George Eliot heard a good deal in her childhood. She had one brother with whom she was especially close. I imagine that she was told to let him go first in scholarly pursuits (such as answering the question about the story of Cincinatus that Mrs. Garth asks Ben and Letty about).

But that doesn't mean that Eliot herself believed in that system. Clearly, she became very well educated herself and most likely resented the fact that as a girl she was held back (as were all little girls in that day).

I still think that there's much hope for Fred. He is on the brink of understanding that other people (the Garths) may have to suffer because of his debts. Mrs. G was saving money so that Alfred could go to school and even with her savings, money is still needed from Mary Garth to pay off all Fred's debt. Fred doesn't get it yet, but I think the lights will eventually go on.

There's one thing in the chapter where Lydgate winds up as Fred's primary doctor that really struck me.

My father was firm in his belief that once one had a doctor that one trusted, one should stay with that doctor. Think how odd this sounds today. I don't think anyone has any serious procedure done without getting a second opinion. But back when I was a young mother and wife, my Dad would not get a second opinion on my mother's condition.

I could see that there was something more wrong with my mother than "aging." She always had a quick mind and she began to show symptoms of aphasia which got worse and worse. She also had a slight limp--she who had always moved so gracefully. She went down hill; I kept suggesting another doctor.

Finally when old Dr. M. died, my father took my mother to a young doctor who was recommended by friends. This new doctor immediately diagnosed Parkinson's Disease, quite far advanced. My mother improved some on L-Dopa but she continued to fail. I wish to this day that I had been able to get through to my Dad. I think I tried as hard as I dared at the time.

Anyway, the point of this rambling is that my father was in many ways Victorian in his practices. One did not change doctors. It simply wasn't done.

JOANP: no, I couldn't go to the coffee. I don't know yet whether PATH went. I'm really sorry to have missed it.

DEEMS: how sad about your mother. But of course, you can't blame yourself. Probably nothing you could have done would have helped. I have two friends who had the same trouble with their mothers. In neither case, were they able to persuade them. And I've been trying to persuade a good friend who is obviously getting really bad care, to change doctors for years. After complaining about the same symptoms for over a year and being told "it's just aging", she finally insisted on going for tests. It's cancer.

Even with a choice of doctors, having our problems taken seriously is a problem for all of us seniors. But at least we know that we have to take charge of our own health.

Joan K--No, I really tried, but thanks for reminding me. Pat H did come for coffee with pedln. It was really good to see her again. Pedln took digital photos which will be posted at some point. Yikes.

It's interesting to see the subject of medicine and doctors brought up. And specifically the problem of choosing a doctor, or getting a second opinion. With Maryal supplying a specific instance of neglect (?) on the part of her father in not doing all he could have done for his wife.

'My father was firm in his belief that once one had a doctor that one trusted, one should stay with that doctor. Think how odd this sounds today. I don't think anyone has any serious procedure done without getting a second opinion. But back when I was a young mother and wife, my Dad would not get a second opinion on my mother's condition.' 651

That's a tough one, Maryal. There must be thousands for whom that would be a reminder of a similiar problem. My own son was diagnosed incorrectly, given a routine antibiotic for something which was very correctly seen as a cancer by a second doctor, treated accordingly in time, with a happy result. A SIL got six opinions of unprofessional ignorance and finally got it correctly diagnosed by a very bright intern in an EMR situation. Mr Vincy is even thinking of taking Dr Wrench to court for malpractice, isn't he? Fred's illness even makes a kinder father out of Mr Vincy. Even suggests that Fred luck just has to change. Mrs Vincy's permission to marry Mary is also designed to get Fred back on his feet.

It surprises me how indulgent we all are with regard to Fred. Wishing him all the best in his amorous endeavers, and his great expectations in inheritating the Featherstone properties. I can't understand why. What has he done to get anyone's respect or goodwill. On the contrary. His abject, pathetic pleading with the Garths, and especially Mary, asking for forgiveness...gets the scorn it deserves. Mary has a problem with forgiving such behavior. (Casabaun, too, was unforgiving with Dorothea) But where Fred does get to Mary is in arousing feelings of pity. Dear me. That's where he gets all of us who think so well of him. He brings out the maternal instinct. He's so unmanly through all that confessing and pleading and wanting to be well thought of. He has to grow up. But we cant help loving the helpless, can we?

I have before me a book review which sounds interesting:

LITERATURE AND MEDICINE IN 19C BRITAIN FROM MARY SHELLEY TO GEORGE ELIOT, by Janis McLarren Caldwell, CUP.

The review doesn't have much to say about Eliot's contribution, but I think we as readers have already seen how important it is in MM. From what I have learned Eliot did an amazing amount of research in the medical area, and it shows, doesn't it. Of course it is so germane to the plot.

Who are we waiting for to die? That's easy. Who do we want out of the way for a start. For a new start for someone we like. Mr Casabaun, of course, poor man. Is he to know no happiness before he dies? Featherstone will live forever, simply because he can't make up his mind about one last codicil, and enjoying it.

From here on in reader involvement increases exponentially. Picking favorites, condoning behavior, hoping for this or that, becomes increasingly problematical. We're expecting many opinions...

Maryal, while having a lot of confidence in modern medicine, I can still understand someone finding the faith in a Providence Who will guide the judgement and hand of whichever doctor is in attendance. Perhaps your father was one such.

Since no one else has attempted to answer Question # 5 I will take a stab at it. "What signs of weakness do you see in L.s resolve to steer clear of MM affairs, including a romantic attavhment.?"

Perhaps L is afraid that getting involved in MM affairs will effect the time he has to devote to Science. His own goal outweighs that of the communities need for his involvement. Another possibility is that he is afraid to be influenced by the Here and Now when he really wants to fly high and do "great things"in the future. Perhaps he is more of a Narcissist than we were led to beleive but still he is a talented man although possibly not as talented as he wishes to think himself.

The Romantic Attachment is happening wether he wants it or not. Rosamund is so focused on capturing her man that he doesn't stand a chance. Although he feels that he is not rerady for marriage the lady is more determined that he is. Does this show weakness of decision or simply a poor fellow whose head has been turned by a beautiful face with little thought on what lies beneath it? Common happening, eh?

Oh dear, soon another pair of misguided souls will be upon us.

Judy

I must confess, I just had to know whose death we were waiting for, so yesterday I completed Book III! My lips are sealed, don’t worry. I just couldn’t help myself. I think my actions speak well for the “reader involvement increasing exponentially,” as day tripper foretold.

Joan, I had decided upon completion of this week’s reading that I thought Fred would live (thus, my need to read on). I do have hope for Fred becoming a better person. Not that I want the Garth’s to suffer, but I do hope that he will see the ramifications of the Garth’s being cleaned out of their savings. Wouldn’t it be real reform to have Fred help the Garth’s in their time of need?

I am reading with interest everyone’s medical comments. I wish I had a better understanding of “normal” medical practices, norms, procedures, and etiquette at the time so that I could better appreciate what statements Elliot is making with regards to that profession. Since I am ahead in my reading, I hope to have some time to see if I can find something simple and concise in this regard. I fear that I may be hoping in vain.

With reference to the final question for the week, Judy S. said, “Perhaps L is afraid that getting involved in MM affairs will effect the time he has to devote to Science.” I agree. I would take it further. Lydgate even talks (to himself in his thoughts) about his relationships with people in a scientific way rather than in a personal way. I wonder if he is one of those people who can’t relate to others well? It seems that people like him, so I am not sure how long he can or will keep people at a distance. Middlemarch doesn’t seem like the place to be able to live unaffected by others.

Right on, JUDY. Of Rosamond, "she did not distinguish flirtation from love, either in herself or in another" As Eliot put it, Lydgate is a 'doomed man'. He is also, by his own assessment, not in a financial position to marry just now. A marriage between the two would be sure to end in disappointment on both sides.

Babi

What a disappointment the good people of Middlemarch are turning out to be for the author. She set out on her narration of provincial life with such high themes in mind, and now discovers she has only such scanty materials to work with. We all remember the Prelude, with its promise of an investigation of the saintly life. After two hundred pages the author gives every indication (ironies, sarcasms, etc) of being perplexed and dismayed by what she finds of human nature in the midlands of England. These people are little better, she implies, than her own ugly furniture, and it took an 'eminent philosopher', as the author reminds herself at the beginning of a new chapter, to look beneath the surface of things in order to dignify the ugly, to promise that even a little 'fact' can be made pregnant. And isn't that a curious association to lead off a chapter which will examine very closely a budding romance. The author is only too aware of the challenge facing her. The darling epigraph puts the problem into a nutshell or, with more literary sophistication, into a rhyming couplet worthy of a Pope or Milton:

'Let the high Muse chant loves Olympian:/We are but mortals, and must sing of man.'

What a lot of drollery in what follows, as Lydgate and Dorothea play at the mating game.

'Think no unfair evil of her, pray,' says the narrator of this, the most finished of all Miss Lemon's pupils - 'this rare compound of beauty, cleverness, and amiability.'

Strange, that the narrator should speak, in the same breath, of the 'doomed man'! And who is this doomed man? Lydgate of course, who, in the words of another, jealous lover of this rare compound, is 'one ofthe most conceited, unpleasant fellows it had ever been his ill-fortune to meet.'

There's scandal ahead, mark my words.

I am happy to say that I found what appears to be a paper written by someone on 19th century medicine in England and makes references to literature. It is located at gober.net/victorian/reports/medicine.html.

Tow quotes from it are:

"The concerns and problems of the people living in nineteenth century England differed dramatically from those that eventually challenged those living in the same place during the 20th century. During the nineteenth century the English were plagued with many epidemics, but lacked the knowledge and capability to successfully treat and eliminate these diseases. London, like other British cities, had appalling sanitary conditions. These conditions were responsible for a rash of epidemics which so heightened public concern about the city's poor health conditions that in 1848 a general Board of Health was established. Among the Board's members was Edwin Chadwick. In that same year, John Simon, a London surgeon, was appointed London's Medical Officer of Health. Chadwick and Simon dominated London's public health movement from the 1840's - 1870's. Indeed, these two gentlemen were behind the 1875 Public Health Act which consolidated and expanded previous legislation on housing and sanitation, noxious trades and factory conditions. During this same time period,John Snow documented the importance of clean water to public health. Despite these efforts, however, cities like London continued to have higher mortality rates than rural areas until late Victorian times."

"Initially, physicians at this time were not equipped to handle the serious epidemics that were arising out of the poor health conditions of the time. They argued over the epidemics' origins, the appropriate theories in medical terminology, and how to categorize the diseases. They questioned whether typhus,plague, scarlet fever, influenza, yellow fever and cholera thrived as a result of peculiar and specific causes or one common agent modified by circumstances. Further, they questioned whether a common strand was responsible for the fever which accompanied all of the diseases. In attempting to answer these questions the physicians of the period examined such factors as: (1) dependence upon certain atmospheric conditions; (2) obedience to similar laws of diffusion; (3) all infesting the same localities; (4) all attacking the same classes of people; and (5)all increased in severity in unsanitary conditions. (Pelling, 64)."

Maryal, Unfortunately I see Fred as a perpetual teenager, always needing someone to bail him out of different problems he gets himself in. Being high bred enhances his problem and in my mind he is always thinking "What's in it for me"

Not so far back "a women's place is in the home" was considered correct for a lot of women and if she was lucky to be married to a man whom she trusted took decisions wisely, she was happy with the situation. It didn't mean that she was 'dull' in any way, it's just that is was easier for the smooth running of the household to take that stand than to buck the system and risk rejection by the society she lived in. Children dictate the behavior of their parents in most cases.

The title "Middlemarch" suddenly struck me as so appropriate for this novel. The characters are trying to march in the middle of their lives trying to avoid rash decisions that would affect their social standing and risk a break in a predictable future. Not Fred though, he lives for the moment and he let others worry about the consequence of his actions.

Eliot must have chosen that title deliberately as I feel that each character's name was a reflection of their personality.

Daytripper, scandal ahead? What would a novel be without it I wonder.

Joan P. don't exhaust yourself.

DAYTRIPPER: it looks like we all have medical horror stories to tell. In Eliot’s time there was more excuse. There really wasn’t the medical knowledge to deal with most illnesses.“It surprises me how indulgent we all are with regard to Fred.” Yes, you are right. We all sense that there is good in there, but is there? Maybe this explains why he has never grown up – he is likable, and everyone indulges him.

JUDY “Perhaps L is afraid that getting involved in MM affairs will effect the time he has to devote to Science. His own goal outweighs that of the communities need “ And “LAURA says “Lydgate even talks (to himself in his thoughts) about his relationships with people in a scientific way rather than in a personal way.”

Yes. Is he beginning to sound like Casaubon? Is this what Casaubon would be like if he were a “passionate man”? His obliviousness is getting L. into all kinds of trouble, isn’t it?

And BABI thinks Lydgate is doomed. DAY TRIPPER notes Eliot using the word “pregnant” and expects a scandal. Oh, my! Can Lydgate be THAT oblivious to his effect on other? Do we all agree?

I admit that the chapter-heading quotes in my book are in such small print that I can’t read them. I see I am missing a lot.

LAURA: how interesting. London, especially, must have been a dirty, smelly, unhealthful place. I’ve read a little about the conditions in hospitals at that time, and they were unspeakable. It’s a wonder that anyone ever got out alive.They did not understand how diseases spread, and so happily spread infection all over the place. In the Crimean war Florence Nightingale tried to change medical practice by insisting on cleanliness in her hospitals. But this was not generally accepted at home in England.

It will be interesting t see what Lydgate’s hospital is like, if it gets built.

ELOISE: you are right: the name Middlemarch must have been deliberately chosen. The people are in the middle of their lives, the town might be in the middle of England (?), the people are in the middle of the social order. What else?

I don't think Lydgate is at all like Casaubon. Lydgate, for one, is a man of action, a doer who accomplishes much, although he is being drawn from his goal by the beautiful but scheming Rosamond.

It's interesting reading all the comments about the 19th century medical world. You read some wonderfully interesting stories about 19th century medicine in the Patrick O'Brien series (Master and Commander) about Captain Jack Aubrey and his good friend, the Catalan physician, laudanum addict, and spy, Dr. Stephen Maturin. Dr. Maturin must treat a multitude of illnesses and injuries, from malaria to limbs lost in battle. Dr. Maturin is a brilliant physician, ahead of his times, and willing to try new methods to save lives. He is one of the most fascinating people I have read about in literature. His story is where I learned a bit about the Spanish region of Catalonia where The Shadow of the Wind takes place, for those of you who are participating in that discussion.

Another fascinating story of 19th century medicine is in McCullough's The Path Between the Seas, the story of building the Panama Canal. 20,000 Frenchmen died working on the canal, mainly from malaria and yellow fever, before the Americans took over the project. It's surprising what the medical world didn't know, or wouldn't admit to, until the 20th century.

Marni

One thing that was pointed out in the O'Brien series was that there was a difference between a medical "doctor" and a "physician" in the 19th century. A physician was more highly educated, as Lydgate apparently is compared to some other doctors in Middlemarch. I wonder when strict education and certification requirements became mandatory for medical doctors. It was probably fairly recent. I remember reading about surgeons in the middle ages. Often, they were barbers. That's where the barber pole comes from - it's a symbol of blood dripping down and around from the surgical work barbers did such as cutting off limbs and pulling teeth.

Marni

I think many doctors today are still very much like the doctors in Middlemarch. If they don't know something about an illness you have, many doctors I've seen say it's caused by stress or you're a hypochondriac or something. I think they especially treat women this way. Rather than have an open mind and look up information about your problem or research it, they chalk it up to some sort of woman's problem.

I would much rather have a Dr. Lydgate treat me since he has an open mind and an investigative nature, at least when it comes to medical situations.

My husband just reminded me that I forgot to mention probably the most common surgical procedure that barbers of the middle ages practiced - bloodletting. You can just envision the blood flowing down and around a person's arm like the red stripe flowed down and around on the barber's pole.

MARNI: someone else who is addicted to Patrick O'Brien!! PatH and I have read all 20, have you? Have you read the biography of the real life person that Jack Aubrey is based on -- Cochrane? he really did all the things that Aubrey does in the fiction, from the first big battle to liberating Chili. He is a hero in Chili.

The books tells you a lot about military medicine during the Napoleonic wars and the War of 1812 -- a little earlier than Middlemarch. Both Pat and I feel that Maturin is presented as being implausibly successful. Given the sanitary conditions, most of his patients would have died of infection.

The same series gives a good feel for the amateur scientists of the day, like Fareweather in Middlemarch.

A fictional series that talks a lot about medical conditions in the middle of the century is the Monk detective story series by Anne Perry. One of the detectives is a nurse who worked under Florence Nightengale in the Crimean war (1854-56), and is trying to introduce her ideas of sanitation in English hospitals with little success.

And I've been wondering if the novel and it's characters were patterned after the March weather...sometimes tempting rays of sunshine either peeping or sweeping through...other days mildly gray...other days deeply gloomy and sad...and then, there is the wind, that famous March wind...so much tumult in so many lives in so many ways...who knows...and who, after all, can control the wind?

Speaking of her headquarters during the Crimean War, I was privileged to visit those headquarters when I studied in Istanbul, Turkey. They were in the Selimiye Army Barracks on the east side of the city in a suburb (sempt) near Uskudar.

She had three rooms in three stories adjoined by a circular staircase. First floor was her office, second her own sitting room and the third her bedroom.

It was in her office on the first floor where I signed the Guest Book. You cannot imagine the humbling thrill I felt, having been a nurse for nearly 20 years and finding the headquarters of this famed and wonderfully courageous and forward looking nurse who's history I love right smack in the middle of my favorite area in Turkey, the homeland of the language and people I also love.

It was so nice to see the posting mentioning Florence Nightengale.

Alliemae

Laura, it would appear that Dr. Lydgate's treatment of typhoid fever in 1830 is several years ahead of his time, doesn't it? I'm guessing it is because the FEVER is his field of interest, still in the research stage...but he was able to diagnose Fred's pink spots and knew the proper medication. More than luck, but no wonder he was envied by other doctors in Middlemarch, who did not have this knowledge. Interesting note on the difference between a medical "doctor" and a "physician" in the 19th century, Marni. Can't you just see Eliot smiling as she writes of the other doctors trumpeting Lydgate's practice as "quackery?" - Enemies.

"The title "Middlemarch" suddenly struck me as so appropriate for this novel. The characters are trying to march in the middle of their lives trying to avoid rash decisions that would affect their social standing and risk a break in a predictable future. (Eloise) Marching in the middle, somewhere between the old and the new...on the brink of discovery that will change their ways forever.

JoanK - "the name Middlemarch must have been deliberately chosen. The people are in the middle of their lives, the town might be in the middle of England (?), the people are in the middle of the social order. What else?" I loved your response to Joan's question, Alliemae - "I've been wondering if the novel and it's characters were patterned after the March weather." YOU are the poet in our midst! Indeed - "who, after all, can control the (March) wind?" The March of Progress!

JoanK: I'm so glad to find someone else who loved the O'Brien series! Yes, I did read all of them - after I read all of the Horatio Hornblower series. Have you read the Hornblowers? Very different from the Aubrey, but very good, too. After I finished them all, I read a couple of biographies of John Paul Jones - his story is like reading a work of fiction! And I just read the new Sugden bio of Lord Nelson, Nelson : A Dream of Glory, 1758-1797. Fabulous!! Now there's a guy who needed a good doctor what with losing sight in one eye, losing an arm, a hernia, malaria, a variety of other illnesses, and then of course the final sniper bullet!

What strikes me more than anything else at this point is the fact that there are so many characters in this town who do not understand themselves, their motivations. They seem to be walking around with blinders on. Eliot alone sees into their hearts. I see very few exceptions. Which of the characters seem to be the most self-deceptive to you? The most aware self-aware? Are Eliot's women more in touch with their true position and inner motives?

Babi sees Mary Garth as completely sincere. Do you agree? Is Mary Garth an exception? What of her true feelings for Fred?

"Mrs. Garth does see women as distinctly subservient to men." (Maryal) We seem to agree that Susan is well-grounded, that she knows her position and accepts it. But doesn't she think she really controls the home? And if this were true, would she be in this financial situation? Had Caleb told her, she would have figured out another way to help Fred, but isn't the whole point that he didn't tell her?

"Rosamund is so focused on capturing her man" (Judy) - "She did not distinguish flirtation from love, either in herself or in another." (Babi) She's in her own world then? Or?

Flora, it seems that finally we have hit upon something that Rosamund and Lydgate have in common - "Really, the men in Middlemarch, except Mr Farebrother, were great bores"

"He (Fred) has to grow up. But we can't help loving the helpless, can we?" (Flora) Fred doesn't know he's helpless, does he? Even though he is completely dependent on the generosity and help of others? Eloise, it's ironic, isn't it? "Being high bred enhances his problem." "We all sense that there is good in there (in Fred), but is there?

"The Romantic Attachment is happening whether he (Lydgate) wants it or not." He doesn't seem to realize what's happening, does he, Judy? "I wonder if he is one of those people who can’t relate to others well." (Laura). He seems to live in his own perception of others, doesn't he? He seems to misread, or maybe not really listen. I'm not sure. Does he relate openly to anyone at all?

"Is he (Lydgate) beginning to sound like Casaubon?" An interesting question, JoanK. He does seem to be living in his own world and would prefer to be left alone with his research...Marni, don't you agree? How do you see him a "man of action"? He does socialize more...He is a man with a plan, but so is Casaubon.

I see Lydgate as a man of action in his chosen field, medicine. He doesn't just practice what he learned. He found and purchased his medical practice, set up his own lab; he investigates medical problems, tries to figure out what is wrong with patients, tries new techniques, diagnoses illnesses & helps to cure his patients at all hours when needed, is working many hours to create the new hospital. Casaubon, on the other hand, researches what others wrote and makes notes of what he reads. He doesn't seem to create anything of his own.

The victorian marriage would have been quite different than now in 2005 but when I married in 1941 I was given advice that would sound positively victorian to my grand-kids. I was lucky in my older sis who set me straight re: finances in marriage. I was given the household accounts right away and then by the end of a couple of years I had total control of the finances whether I was working or not. I also became the comptroller of my husbands several corporations and acted I hope on behalf of the family always. I was what Eliot writes about, women who guide their husbands with a quiet hand so he really didnt even know it. There were of course several things that caused a chasm to grow between us after 25 years but I was able to divorce whereas a Victorian wife had no place to go and had to submit to the marriage even when it was unbearable.

My great grandmother was said to go in her room and lock the door for several weeks at a time coming out at night only for hygenic reasons plus finding food I imagine because even depressed people eat and drink something. She was born in 1846 so was raised in the Victorian age.

The change in the world going on in this novel (1836) are very dramatic changes...the middleclass is becoming a reading generation which is why the serialization of books and magazines became so popular. Railroads were allowing movement and competition in business, and job searchs. Rural workers becoming factory workers especially in the textile industry. And medicine and science was changing rapidly. Charles Darwin published The Origin of the Species confounding not just scientists but religionists also. The sweeping reforms in class systems was causing great tension in Society. The womans movement was not and active movement yet but the ideas were worming around in all the poets and writers of the day giving expression to womans complaints of being at the bottom of societies classes where she had to "handle" and "manipulate" to survive. Yet things were changing and she could get an education in college though she couldnt accept a degree from the college yet. I dont know when that changed but guess it changed in US before England. Must look that up.

Eliot seems to have understood the complications of the Victorian marriage very well and from all I have read so far she also has a gentle loving eye on all her characters. Still she leads us down the garden path sometimes so that we do get surprises as we read on. faith

Perhaps that's because he set himself an impossible task. He certainly aimed high as a young man, when he dreamed of finding a key, a rational explanation or whatever, to all the mythologies in the world. He seems to have failed. But what a noble objective. Would anyone care to guess how many clergymen in 19c England were lost in their studies of this or that. Eliot, I have no doubt, was writing about a type. So many of them were unusual characters. Just consider how often they are the subjects of books. It's The Vicar of ..., or, The Rector of ..., or The Curate, etc. My favorite is Hawker of Morwenstow, the latter being a small parish on the wild, desolate Cornish coast, and Stephen Hawker, 1803-75, was its vicar. What an eccentric. Forty-one years he spent in his isolated parish. I couldn't begin to describe his life. Excommunicating one his cats for mousing on a Sunday was the least of his eccentricities. Reworking the Arthurian legend into something he titled The Quest of the Sangraal, made Tennyson envious. Much of his poetry was written in the little cubicle he built into the cliff overlooking the sea. A spectacular view, take my word. Sometimes the congregation listening to his sermon was only his wife buried below him, at the foot of the pulpit.

Are we prepared to judge Casaubon? Does he stand as a warning for others who see grand designs in things?

Faith--WOW. What an amazing family story--your great grandmother. I guess women just didn't have much room to escape to in our period. Good night, I wouldn't have made it for a month under some conditions.

Faith wrote, " My great grandmother was said to go in her room and lock the door for several weeks at a time coming out at night only for hygenic reasons plus finding food I imagine because even depressed people eat and drink something. She was born in 1846 so was raised in the Victorian age."

I don't think Lydgate is anything like Casaubon. I've known people like Casaubon (I'm in academe as most of you know) --one a bibliographer who became quite well known simply for compiling lists of books about writers, and articles and reviews and so forth. Casaubon is even more closeted and weird since he so fears the judgment of others that he doesn't even publish (or begin to write?) his big work. I'm thinking that he's probably got zillions of index cards and little scraps of paper with tiny spidery handwriting on them. Even if he had a computer, I'll bet he couldn't turn all the notes on notes into a book. I also think that subconsciously he knows this.

Lydgate, on the other hand, is a genuinely educated person who plans to do something with his education. He's not much for the social life in Middlemarch, but he's not a hermit like Casaubon. Creepy old man. He's got to die soon. I'm so tired of him.

Maryal

daytripper--Perhaps Casaubon aimed high but in his refusal to learn German or pay someone to translate those recent articles for him--the Germans were doing a great deal of research at this time--he is simply blinding himself. He's not behaving in the proper scholarly fashion.

ELOISE, what did you mean by your remark that you believe the names relected the characters in this book? It puzzled me, that's all. With names like Vincy, Casaubon, Garth, Lydgate,...I'm wondering if there are translations of these names that are unknown to me.

JOANK, I am a great fan of the Monk series also, and a great admirer of Monk's wife, the former Nightingale nurse. The health and poverty issues are a every present underlying issue in these books, tho' they are primarily excellent mysteries.

Is it easy to see why so many people were terrified of going to hospitals of that time. I think that was especially true of the poorer classes, who shared rooms with up to 8-10 beds. Going to the hospital was regarded as the equivalent of going someplace to die, not to be healed.

Babi

What interesting stories. Faith, your poor great grandmother in these times would have had help available to her. I believe that in Victorian times, women were actually told to spend all their time in a closed room, if they had "nerves".

My great grandmother was a bit of an eccentric. these were the times when farm women like her made their own clothes. As she got older, she decided that there was no use wasting a lot of material on her dresses, since she would die soon. The dresses got skimpier and skimpier, so that by the time she died at 90 they were positively indecent according to the standards of the day.

Hacker sounds fascinating. Excommunicating the cat -- wow. I guess the cat could not receive communion after that! No wonder his congregation was small.

Marni: I've read some of the Hornblower books, by no means all. I'll fish out the name of the biography of Lord Cochrane that I read. There are a number, and I don't remember which one it was.

An early movie version of Pride and Predudice is showing on PBS starting now (11 PM) in my area.

JoanK: Thanks! I'll have to get ahold of it when you find the book title.

I think in general GE will never give us a character without presenting him or her like a precious stone. Each has different facets depending at how the light of circumstances hits it. Yes, though I really made fun of Causabon I feel bad about it. He is worthless but then he supports Will. He is worthless but unhappy and like all of us, trying for a bit of pleasure in his life , though he doesn't seem to know what happiness is exactly.

And Mary, our dear and perfect girl with the strong Mother and weak but good Father. She is so level headed that one could easily skateboard on her. She loves Fred but wants him stronger and better. She is well read and clever but does she have depth? If one of you will point out her depth I would appreciate it. I don't dislike her, just haven't found that facet yet.

Thanks to all of you who give us bits of History, Sociology and Science of that period. It truly enhances the whole experience of the book for me.

Judy

Good morning, Judy! You and I are the early ones today...plenty of crumpets, kippers and red herring to go around. Have another plateful!

I agree with you, Eliot takes her own sweet time providing depth, doesn't she? She's really good at first introductions, but seems to let us form first impressions before providing the "depth" you are seeking. Mary G. seems too good to be true at this point, but then, so does Susan Garth, doesn't she? I will guess that we learn more of Mary in the coming chapters. I don't doubt that she has integrity and strength in her convictions, but what are her needs, her vices? Right now she is too virtuous...if not good looking. I keep forgetting that she is supposed to be quite homely, don't you? Fred doesn't seem to notice her paucity of good looks either!

The other characters still in need of flesh on the bones are Lydgate and Casaubon. I agree with you, Flora, we need to know more about Casaubon, before we can judge him. (Give him a chance before knocking him off, Maryal!) Do you think he just represents a type and we are not going to get to know him personally? Are we to assume he is like others we have known, or will Eliot make him one of her own memorable characters? He is not unlike many other men of his time, but what makes him an individual? Thanks Marni, yes, Lydgate is a man with a plan...as you describe him, a man of action in his chosen field, medicine. But what do we really know about him, besides his education and profession - except that he has plans and dreams and a very poor understanding of his own weaknesses? Don't you want to know more about him or are you satisfied with his portrayal? I don't think he is a "type"...and feel we will get to know him better before judging him too.

Off to refill my plate...

Judy, that's really seeing a wonderful simile in Eliot's style. Good or bad, lovable of hateful, every character is given a chance to impress herself/himself on the reader's imagination, and held up for judgment and appraisal.

We're getting to know these individuals so well. By the strangest means. It's left to Rosamond, that extremely sophisticated, clever young lady, to point out how smart Dorothea was in marrying Casabaun. But that's jumping ahead of where we are reading.

How about Mrs Garth being thought of as an unintentional hypocrite?. Paying lip service to the scriptural idea of female subservience to men; whereas everything indicates just the opposite to be the case. I can't find a single instance of this subservience up to where we have read. The notion is laughable. And Mrs Garth is making certain that her daughters will be anything but slaves. It's a very feminist book in some ways, full of tips for young female readers. Flora

I love it when a writer brings out terrific stories from our own experience - Fai, Maryal, JoanK - yours demonstrate that Eliot knew first-hand what she was writing about. And I agree, with you, Judy, your posts on this period are bringing this period to life!

JoanK, you are going to make an night owl out of me by the time we finish this novel! And I'm already an early bird! Last night was bad - after reading your notice, I was up until 1:30 am watching Pride and Prejudice and then up at 5:30, my usual wake-up time no matter what time I get to bed.

I was struck at Jane Austin's HUMOROUS portrayal of Victorian women. The same wry humor we are seeing in George Eliot! Instead of railing at the injustice, the unfairness, the painful courting and mating practices...these authors treated it all with a sense of humor! Do they make the point better when serving it up with a dash of merriment? Fai posted yesterday -

"The womens' movement was not an active movement yet but the ideas were worming around in all the poets and writers of the day giving expression to womans complaints of being at the bottom of societies classes where she had to "handle" and "manipulate" to survive. Eliot seems to have understood the complications of the Victorian marriage very well."

Yes she did understand the complications and broken dreams, but its the HUMOR with which she treats them that has me marvelling this morning! Why is that? Do you think it was because both Austen and Eliot chose NOT to get caught up in the dance? But rather sat at the wall and noted the silly posturing with glee?

Flora, I just now see your post...yes, yes, yes, "laughable notions" abound. "... a very feminist book in some ways, full of tips for young female readers."

Will you check your desktops or your underlinings for particularly noteworthy passages or metaphors today? It is easy to overlook the dazzling writing when the story captures our attention.

Gracious!!! I forgot to mention Mrs. Taft!!! Maybe it's because I'm a knitter that I got such a kick out of her, counting her stitches, not paying close attention to the conversation, picking up snatches now and then when she finished counting her rows. Any knitters here? You'll recognize her portrayal! Funny!!!

Super Sunday, everyone!

I marked this quote at the start of Chapter XXVII:

“Your pierglass or extensive surface of polished steel made to be rubbed by a housemaid, will be minutely and multitudinously scratched in all directions: but place now against it a lighted candle as a centre of illumination, and lo! The scratches will seem to arrange themselves in a fine series of concentric circles round that little sun. It is demonstrable that the scratches are going everywhere impartially, and it is only your candle which produces the flattering illusion of a concentric arrangement, its light falling with an exclusive optical selection.”

It calls to mind the idea of the web of Middlemarch, its people, and how they relate to one another. Right now, we as readers are not sure how all these bits of story going in many directions are going to arrange themselves. I guess we are the candles which will make the story clear and organized with our analysis.

"it is only your candle which produces the flattering illusion of a concentric arrangement, its light falling with an exclusive optical selection" - the end of the quote speaks to me, saying that our viewpoint is a 'candle producing an illusion' - not the organzing factor of arrangement, and of course GE being the guide of this expedition, lets us know thereby that others have other 'candles"

I really wonder how she found these quotes and paired them so well with the chapters.

We've spent some time discussing women's roles. I just read something so startling. I'm reading Galileo's Daughter by Dava Sobel, a book about Galileo and his family with much information provided from letters written by Galileo's oldest daughter, Virginia. She was apparently brilliant like her father. Listen to this!!!

Virginia, born in 1600, was the oldest of 3 illegitimate children Galileo fathered with his mistress whom he refused to marry. Galileo realized that he would never find husbands for his daughters because of their illegitimate status, so he forced Virginia when she was 13, along with her younger sister, into the Convent of San Matteo run by the Clarisses. Virginia was forced to take her vows 3 years later and took the name Suor Maria Celeste.

Her brother, on the other hand, was given special dispensation and declared legitimate and he got to live with his father in his hillside villa, go to college, was given money, etc.

The convent sisters, once admitted to the convent, were never again allowed to leave the convent for the rest of their lives. They could not even be in the same room with someone from the outside world again although they could speak to one through a barred opening in a wall. Suor Maria Celeste spent her days doing the following: praying the Liturgy of the Hours, singing in the choir, writing spiritual plays, growing fruits and vegetables, cleaning, cooking, embroidering, making medicines, nursing sick nuns, and sewing, washing and bleaching clothes for her father and brother, begging her father for small items, and thanking him profusely for everything Galileo did for her!

The sisters always had to wear rough brown habits, black linen veils, always go barefoot, and had to sleep in their clothes. They slept on hard boards, "fasted continually," ate poor food, had to "mortify and villify" themselves, and "suffer contempt, hunger, thirst, heat, cold, and other inconveniences for his (God's) love." Maria Celeste had to beg her father for a blanket because she was so cold, she thought she was going to freeze to death!

Please excuse a momentary diversion: The Cochrane biography that I read is "Cochrane: the Life and Exploits of a Fighting Captain" by Robert Harvey. It actually helps understand the O'Brien books. Harvey's description of the first major sea battle is much better than O'Brien's, and makes it much clearer why it was such an unbelievable feat and made Cochrane/Aubrey's reputation.

Now back on dry land to Middlemarch.

JUDY:” [Mary] is so level headed that one could easily skateboard on her. “

Eliot is not the only wit in this discussion!!. I have the feeling that Eliot put part of herself into Dorothea, and the other half into Mary.

JOANP: Oops, I’m sorry. Don’t get sucked into my nightowl ways. It’s not worth it. I’m trying to get out of them. After the movie, I stayed up watching a live camera of a waterhole in Botswana.(Similar to the watering places in Austen?) But I don’t have to get up and go to work.

That version of Pride and Predudice doesn’t even hold a candle to the recent one with Colin Firth. Do rent it if you can: it’s available from Netflicks. I think it’s the best movie adaptation I’ve ever seen.

“Do you think it was because both Austen and Eliot chose NOT to get caught up in the dance?” Both Austen and Eliot have lazer vision and rapier wit. I don’t know which came first: do they see so clearly because they’re not caught up, or did they not get caught up because they see so clearly?

LAURA, BBC: I’ve been fascinated by that quote, too. Is this a picture of how she writes? Is it literally true, does anyone know?

MARNI: some women have chosen such a life and thrived (St. Theresa). But it’s really sad to think of the women who were forced into it. Throughout the centuries, choices for women have really been so narrow.

Dear Joan P., Thanks for the offer of Kippers, Herrings and Crumpets. I will acept the crumpets and eat them with Marmalade (Lemon or Orange).

The story is ... My parents were British. My Father loved Herring and Kippers. My Mother hated them so Violently that she would not let them into the Refrigerator. They were Kept on the Kitchen Window Sill. I identified with Mom and hate them too but of course my husband loves them. They are allowed in the Fridge but he has to buy them himself.So whenever he does we say:

Jack Sprat could eat no fat, his wife could eat no lean.

But between the two they licked the platter clean!

So there you are. We are all strange in our own ways.

Thanks for the offer though!

Judy

But between the two they licked the

Maybe it's a gender thing. My husband loves sardines, and I hate them.

Good morning. Now we move on to the next section, where some of our questions are answered and some --- aren't. I'm beginning to decide that Eliot is quite a tease!

I've been up late, watching elephants and ostriches live in Botswana. It's addictive! I'm GOING to quit, and go to bed (well. maybe just one more look).

Good morning, Judy - the crumpets and lemon marmalade sound delicious! Happy your husband decided not to join us this time - I get to lick your kipper platter clean.

Marni, you remind us of how far we have come. Can you imagine living in such a period - as a woman? JoanK, we need to pull that tv cord from the wall! You ARE addicted - ostriches in Botswana! Don't they sleep? I worry about you - you're missing out on the crumpets! Judy just had another!

Laura, bbc, you couldn't have directed our attention on a better metaphor than the pier-glass -

"A tall mirror, especially one placed between windows."
Laura sees the mirror reflecting Middlemarch, its people and how they relate. bbc points to the fact that the mirror is not an exact reflection, but rather "a flattering illusion the candle light falling with an exclusive optical selection." bbc, I think the metaphor is Eliot's own. She continues to write in the same paragraph - "These things are a parable. The scratches are events, and the candle is the egoism of any person now absent.

Is it egoism then that prevents Eliot's characters...well, all of us, ourselves included, from seeing ourselves in the glass as we truly are?

At last, the extended honeymoon is over - the candle extinguished, "poor Casaubon's" failure revealed in Rome's broad daylight - not only to himself, but to his young wife as well. We find them confined in the close quarters of the Lowick estate. Weren't you just "dying" to know how they would get along, now that illusions have been shattered?

Please let's not go further without an attempt to decipher the epigram at the start of Chapter XXVIII- the bit of dialogue between the author's 1st and 2nd Gents - (What do you think of these two? Are they developing into familiar little characters too?)

I hadn't realized that these two men are the same ones from earlier chapters! Now I will need to read their comments in sequence.

As for this comment, I took the meaning to be that if a couple is meant to be together and is right for each other, the time of day, time of year, time of life, etc. doesn’t make a difference. They will be happy and want to be together no matter what life may bring. Of course, the opposite would also be true. I think Eliot is talking about the opposite of Casaubon and Dorothea’s marriage in the epigram.

JoanK: Thanks for the book title. I'm going to try to get ahold of it!

" Mr. Casaubon had an intense consciousness within him, and was spiritually a-hungered like the rest of us. " GE writes of Casaubon, continuing later with "For my part I am very sorry for him. It is an uneasy lot at best, to be what we call highly taught and yet not to enjoy: to be present at this great spectacle of life and never to be liberated from a small hungry shivering self -- never to be fully possessed by the glory we behold, never to have our consciousness rapturously transformed into the vividness of a thought, the ardor of a passion, the energy of au action, but always to be scholarly and uninspired, ambitious and timid, scrupulous and dim-sighted."

As the intrusive author in Chapter 28 exposes more facets of Casaubons character I see him as a very repressed, shy, and ill-equipped person who does not seem to understand anyones feelings. There are people like that around me, who are very shy but that shyness seems to conceal unconcern for anyones feelings but their own and the one I am thinking of is totally self-absorbed. They think others are watching them, commenting on them, judging them, and it makes them blush to go pay a bill at the cashiers because they think the cashier is judging them. Shyness in the aged person turns into just such a small hungry shivering self as GE exposes.

Dorthea now must bear the burden of his inability to feel love. His jealousy and insecurity regarding Will place a great burden on young Dorothea. Dorthea finally sees parallels with her marriage and Will's grandmother who also was doomed in a bad marriage. She sees how her choice was badly made. She knows now what might be in-store for her. She is growing up and changing. (Change seems to be a major theme in this novel). She is very upset over the words over the letters, with her husband. He tells her not to let Ladislaw visit. He takes a mean natured tone with her and Dorthea is strengthen by this quarrel and Casaubon is weakened.

It is not hard to see that this marriage has not brought either one of the pair any happiness. C is to set in his nature to change but of course the salvation for Dorthea is that she can and does change even though she has to face things about herself she doesnt like much. Casaubon's fantasy about a sweet young thing bringing him ease in his declining years now is falling apart and he is falling apart along with his illusion. faith

JOANP: the elephants aren’t on TV: they’re live on the Web. Right now, they're offline, due to technical difficulties:

WILDCAM

FAITH: “It is an uneasy lot at best, to be what we call highly taught and yet not to enjoy: to be present at this great spectacle of life and never to be liberated from a small hungry shivering self -- never to be fully possessed by the glory we behold, never to have our consciousness rapturously transformed into the vividness of a thought, the ardor of a passion, the energy of au action, but always to be scholarly and uninspired, ambitious and timid, scrupulous and dim-sighted."

If any of you saw the movie “Amadeus”, this reminds me a little of the composer Salieri – not too much, because Salieri was able to appreciate and feel Mozart’s music and know that his own was mediocre. At one point, he asks why God would give him this hunger to make great music and not give him the talent to achieve it. It was like a cruel joke.

Yes, I feel very sorry for C. But there must be many C.’s. We’re all dealt a hand we might not have wanted. The question is, how you play it.

The two gentlemen supply the author with an epigraph which strikes a happy note, full of promise; but soon turns wistful, as we witness Dorothea's distress.

But first, how nice to read that Dorothea has come back from the honeymoon glowing 'as only healthful youth can glow.' Lowick Manor, too, has been transformed into a winter wonderland outside, with the snowfall, while a 'bright fire of dry oak-boughs gives a promise of renewal of life' inside.

Things have by no means fallen into a routine for the honeymooners. Both, if anything, are gruelling in a state of shock, rather than basking in wedded bliss. The landscape of married life is virtual terra incognita for both of them.

Mr Casaubon, however, had his work to come home to. The wifely duties that Dorothea had promised herself turn out to have been only a dream. The devotions which she had prepared for her husband have turned to ashes. It was all a dream she is beginning to suspect.

It's only a short step to feeling a dreary, stifling oppression in the Manor of which she is now the Mistress. Quite suddenly she feels so alone. Husband and home seem no more real than the 'ghostly stag in a pale fantastic world' in the tapestry on the wall.

Small wonder if all our sympathies go out to 'poor Dorothea'. She certainly deserves better than this. The shock of the new is simply too much for her. But she is young and resilient, and Casaubon is about to feel her fury. Will he be able to bear the shock?

Before that, however, sister Celia wants to know,

was 'it nice to go to Rome on a wedding journey',

and gets a decidedly negative answer from Dorothea, who might even be wanting to tell her sister, 'get thee to a nunnery.'Flora

FLORA: "Dorothea, who might even be wanting to tell her sister, 'get thee to a nunnery.' Hahaha. Probably not, since that phrase in Shakepeare really means "get thee to a house", the kind that is not a home.

Good morning! I'm wondering what are Dorothea's thoughts as she opens her eyes back home in Lowick. I can't even see the two of them sharing a room, let alone a bed, can you? I must confess - when I read the epigram to Chapter XXVIII, I had a different reaction than you did, Laura. I read it as meaning that things would improve when they got out of Rome and returned home to Lowick with a new understanding of the nature of Casaubon's work and Dorothea's determination to provide assistance - out of tender pity if nothing else. As the first Gent said - "All times are good to seek your wedded home." And then the second Gent's comment about a sweet death as they clasped on another - well, I concluded that the death we await is not Fred's, but Casaubon's, but that it would be a "sweet" death - giving new purpose to Dorothea's days.

After reading your post, Laura - "the opposite would also be true. I think Eliot is talking about the opposite of Casaubon and Dorothea’s marriage in the epigram," I had to go back and reread the little dialogue to see how I jumped to such a conclusion. Did Eliot intend to mislead, to get our hopes up? Maybe that's what she does through these Gents' dialogues - we'll have to watch them in the future!

Flora, you too read the dialogue as a "happy note, full of promise." Sometimes the epigrams are misleading then, since we immediately become aware of Dorothea's distress. We are told she spends much of her time in the small study - Wasn't this a powerful scene in its stifling smallness - even the furniture shrinking along with her former dreams of wifely duties? Flora, that 'ghostly stag in a pale fantastic world' in the tapestry on the wall" caught my attention too. Dreary oppression! It adds to the ghostly, dreamlike atmosphere in the blue green room - where Dorothea had first noticed the miniature of Aunt Julia, Will's grandmother.

It occurred to me that the white stag might represent the ghost of the long-absent Julia> Dorothea seems to spend time studying that miniature - wondering whether it was only Aunt Julia's friends who though her marriage unfortunate - or "did she herself find it out to be a mistake, and taste the salty bitterness of her tears in the merciful silence of the night." Oh, yes, Dorothea understands what an unfortunate marriage she herself has entered, Fai. You see hope in the future for her because of her youth? She still has time to change - to find a way out of the dreary oppression - sooner or later ?

Is Eliot portraying 'the small hungry shivering Casaubon' as more deserving of our pity because it is too late for him to change? "Casaubon's fantasy about a sweet young thing bringing him ease in his declining years." Fai, you mention that change is a major theme in this novel - yes, yes, and then another - a man's assumption that the woman's only role is to serve him, to make his life easier. Isn't Eliot dwelling on this presumptive attitude BECAUSE she thinks that it too must change?

Yes, I believe that GE is trying to express the notion that men treat women as if they were "children" with all that implys and that men really believe their viewpoint regarding women's place. She knows that this has to change in the future and that marriage needs a new model. GE shows us though that some women can control the family and the husband and they help them be better husbands, and in some circumstances this is ok and the marriage thrives.

However if the woman is greedy and selfish and doesnt truly care for putting her family first it can be a disaster. I think we will see that too in this novel . If the husband is cold as C is that is going to leave the woman with no one to love and put first if she is childless, though no doubt Dorthea will try. After C's "heart palpitations" Lydgate gives her a warning that agitation and stress could do the patient much harm though he also implys that C could live a long time. His warning forshadows the coming death of C. I think.

Dorthea is trying to do the right thing when she asks Mr. Brooks to write to Will and she intended for this letter to warn Will to stay away from Middlemarch and not to aggrevate C, instead it has the opposite effect and Mr. Brooks invites Will to live with him. faith

How interesting to read your different reactions to the epigram to Chapter XVIII! I think both the positive interpretation, that it gives the reader hope for Casaubon and Dorothea’s relationship, and the negative interpretation, that there is no hope for Casaubon and Dorothea’s relationship, are perfectly valid and defensible. I think Eliot wants the readers to think and think again about this relationship --- Should they marry? Is the marriage working? Why isn’t the marriage working? Can it ever work? These are the “big” questions I see Eliot laying out for us so far.

I also think both Dorothea and Casaubon are justified in their disappointment with their marriage. Their expectations do not match reality and I can’t see how they ever will. The only way that the marriage could be satisfying to either of them is if they would change their expectations. Given their personalities, I can’t see that either will change their expectations, so, to me, there is no hope for their marriage.

I still find both Dorothea and Casaubon to be sympathetic characters because both are acting in good faith. My feelings about these two characters has not changed since the beginning of the book, but my understanding of their internal thoughts and motivations has led me to conclude that they are not meant for each other. However, I don’t think Cheetham and Dorothea would have made a good match either. I still think she made the right decision by choosing Casaubon over Cheetham, but the best choice may have been to remain unmarried. But, if she ends up with a short marriage and lessons learned, it may all work out for the best.

On that note, I still think we are waiting for Casaubon’s death, even though the actual death in this section of the book is not his.

Good points, FAITH and LAURA. I think we're being forewarned of C.'s death too (I haven't read ahead). But I am afraid Eliot is setting D. up, so that if C. dies, she will feel it's her fault. She stands up to him, and he immediately gets sick. What does that tell her. It could get even more miserable.

Well, we have been waiting for Eliot to give us a more in-depth look at Casaubon, and she has now done so in her inimitable style.

On his assumptions re. marriage: "Society never made the preposterous demand that a man should think as much abut his own qualifications for making a charming girl happy as he thinks of hers for making himself happy."

She speaks of that "proud sensitiveness" which "quivers thread-like in small currents of self-preoccupation or at best of an egoistic scrupulosity." And Casaubon was scrupulous in what he saw as his duty. I think it was this scrupulosity that caused him to aid his young relative, Ladislaw, not generosity.

Re. his work: that melancholy embitterment which is the consequence of all excessive claim:"

The future direction of his marriage: "And the deeper he went in domesticity, the more did the sense of acquitting himself and acting with propriety predominate over any other satisfaction. Marriage, like religion and erudition, nay, like authorship itself, was fated to become an outward requirement, and Edward Casaubon was bent on fulfilling unimpeachably all requirements."

Oh, dear. What a dry and bleak outlook.

Babi

I have read and reread the conversation between the two gentlemen and wish I knew where it came from. Shakespeare perhaps?

My interpretation is that if two people love each other even death is not bitter if they face it together. But it is important to think what the corollary of that is.i.e. if the two are very mismatched and are not full of love to one another even a beautiful home or a castle can be Hell on earth. The words "The calendar hath not an evil day" is telling us that that we make our own heaven or hell and must choose wisely who we travel with or the evil day will be upon us. Again the author is emphasizing how we pay for our mistakes.

Indeed GE sympathizes with Dorothea as do I. Part of her misery is based on her self blame. Part of Causabons misery (and consequent break down) is that he too sees how mismatched they are and that D will not be the catalyst to bring him the fame his soul seems to seek. Indeed he wishes to do what society expects of him. Yet GE writes "even his religous faith wavered with his wavering trust in his own authorship, and the consolations of Christian hope in immortality seemed to lean on the immortality of the still unwritten Key to all Mytholigies."

Most important of all GE adds "For my part I am very sorry for him.... ..always to be scholarly and uninspired,ambitous and timid, scrupulous and dimsighted."

We have gone full circle with Causabon.(At least I have). How can I hate such a pathetic fellow? I can"t but I certainly would not like to spend too much time in his company .

Judy

Judy--Somewhere there's a note indicating that if an author is not given for the epigraph, the author is Eliot herself. However, I think you're right to think of Shakespeare since it seems to be Shakespeare that Eliot is imitating. All those gentlemen in the plays who appear as very minor characters precisely to comment on the action (and perhaps to allow time for costume changes?)

I take the epigraph as negative. These two are not going to have the kind of happy life where they can be happy anywhere. They were unhappy in Rome; they will be unhappy at home and both have lost whatever illusions they had. I don't find Casaubon sympathetic, Laura, though I suspect that it is my own life experience getting in the way of caring anything about him. He has lived a dry and solitary life and will die a dry and solitary death. Eventually. If not now, later. There just isn't any more of him to develop. We know all we need to about him.

I'm just back from the beach and a much needed rest over Columbus Day. The weather was not bad; apparently it rained all weekend here in the D.C. area but we had some cloudy weather at the beach and only a little rain.

Did anyone notice that one of the reasons Casaubon married was to leave a small replica of himself? I don't have time right now to find the passage, but in it Eliot refers to a Shakespearean sonnet urging a young man to marry so that he might have heirs.

Maryal

Well, look who has just washed up on the beach - along with the red herring! So good to have you back with us, Maryal! And you bring another delicious morsel to chew on with our breakfast!
"Did anyone notice that one of the reasons Casaubon married was to leave a small replica of himself?" Do you remember from earlier chapters - Uncle Brooke's will? All of his properties would go to Dorothea's first child - (or was it first son?) What if there is no heir? Would the estate be divided between Dorothea and Celia? ("poor Celia" - did you notice in her joyful announcement that the engagement came about because Sir James had no one to talk to when Dorothea left?) If the marriage is short, as Laura suggests, would Casaubon's entire fortune go directly to his wife?

Do you all await Casaubon's death - is he the subject of this Book (Waiting for Death) - as well as Featherstone? Remember it began with Fred's typhoid fever and references to his Niobe-like mother. Have you eliminated Fred altogether from the deathwatch? (I haven't.)

Somehow, I don't see these two producing a child in this climate - do you? Judy, I find your "hell-on-earth" corollary to the couple described in Eliot's epigraph both apt and chilling. The whole situation in the Casaubon household is oppressive to the point of being unbearable...as Babi describes it - BLEAK. I suspect that Dorothea feels as you do, Judy, real pity for the man. BUT still, she chooses her lonely sitting room to sitting at the hearth with her husband.

Laura, you write of their expectations from the marriage...do you think that Dorothea had expectations of "expecting" a child? Would a child alter their situation? Surely a child would add purpose to Dorothea's days...and if Casaubon finally produced a tangible entity, would this change him?

Babi, do you think that Eliot expects us to be asking at this point for an explanation how this overly scrupulous, quivering, timid, ineffective, unaccomplished little boy grew up? Do we need to know more of his childhood? (Do you wonder why he constantly makes the correctin that Will is is cousin and NOT his nephew?) I for one, am not finished with Casaubon, whether Eliot ever takes up his character again. I would bet though, that IF he were to have a child, he would not bring him up the same way.

Coffee break...crumpets, lemon marmalade.

hmmm, that was good! Just two more comments and then I'm off, and it's your turn...

Babi, over and over and over again, Eliot returns to this same theme you cited. :

"Society never made the preposterous demand that a man should think as much abut his own qualifications for making a charming girl happy as he thinks of hers for making himself happy."

This assumption seems to play a part in every man/wife relationship, does't it? Do you think this is the motivating theme for the novel?

I'm still thinking too about Dorothea's self-blame Judy speaks of, and JoanK's fear that Eliot is setting D. up, so that if C. dies, she will feel it's her fault. Things do seem to be pointing to this...but HOW can Dorothea blame herself for her husband's misconceptions?

We all knew that Eliot was going to bring Will back to his damsel in distress, but how clever to lodge him at Tipton Grange...and in Casaubon's eyes, at the invitation of his wife!

Judy, are you reading the Barnes & Noble edition? There's an endnote to the first reference to the two Gents when they appeared in Book One (on page 30 in the B&N edition):

"Chapter epigraphs unless otherwise noted, are written by George Eliot."

As Maryal says the Gents do resemble Shakespeare's characters and surely our author would be pleased at your observation!

Even in these days I've seen both men and women 'mark their territory' as it were!

I think L was doing just that...not necessarily because he WANTED Rosamond in a permanent way for the future but he certainly didn't want anyone else to have her favor above him.

Ah...'the best laid plans of mice [and sometimes RATS, although not, in my opinion, Lydgate] are oftimes taken by an embittered suitor to a town gossip and then to a person who genuinely cares about the girl and BAM!!!...you saw what happened there.

Ah yes...every 'dog' has its day.....

Alliemae

""Society never made the preposterous demand that a man should think as much abut his own qualifications for making a charming girl happy as he thinks of hers for making himself happy."

JOANP: "Do you think this is the motivating theme for the novel?" That's a good question. I think in general the way men think about women is a major theme of the novel. Set up by the idiocies that Mr. Brooke mouths about Dorothea. Both Casaubon and now (we suspect) Lydgate come to grief by thinking in stereotypes about women.

But so far, the women aren't doing any better. Rosamund is just as self-centered in her view of marriage, and oblivious to what Lydgate wants. D. is all self-sacrifice, but as Celia says she enjoys giving things up. She isn't really tuned to what C. needs, only to what her "idealized husband" needs.

Lydgate is drawn to Dorthea as her personality is foreign to him. He is about to be drawn into a marriage which he does not desire because of gossip. And because Mrs. Bulstrodes talking to him regarding his social obligations. This whole chapter has me laughing particularly when after a fairly long seperation L comes back to see Rosemonde. When she shows signs of really needing him his pride is touched and he proposes. He is feeling rather tender when she cries and accepts Lydgate proposal so now they are engaged. Rosemonde acts like she is in love with L but what she loves is he flatters her vanity. These two are intellectually and ideologically very ill-suited. I could see Lydgate and Dorothea together but suppose thats off base ...still?

Then I went off to watch mr Featherstones relatives begining to act like vultures, sitting in the corner of the kitchen, waiting for Death. Is this the scene the title of book three is predicting? faith

Really, to me one of the most touching moments between Dorothea and Casaubon, perhaps the only one, was when he became ill and dizzy while standing on the library steps. Dorothea rushes to him and asks, "Can you lean on me, dear?" I find that poignant, and the perfect expression of her desires in her marriage, that she might be of some use to her husband, and that he might come to lean, somewhat, on her.

I found the scene between Lydgate and Rosamond a tender one as well. For once, Rosamond is shaken into behaving naturally, and her tears are genuine. A man would have to be a total brute not to be touched and moved by that lovely, vulnerable, tearful face. Of course, you and I realize how much of Rosamond's pain is over the loss of all the dreams and plans she had so happily made, but she doesn't. She has tied all her hopes of happiness to Lydgate, and believes this is love of the man. It's a pity, isn't it, that both of them have seen only what their own imagination showed them, and are set for an unhappy awakening.

I appreciate Mrs. Bulstrode and her attempt to warn her niece that she will find no "high life" with Lydgate. At least Rosamond cannot complain that no one ever tried to advise her.

Babi

in my post #710 re: Lydgate and Dorothea in no way was I suggesting that I think that L was a cad or a bounder or even a 'dog' (which was just a throwback to my introductory sentence).

I think that so far both Lydgate and Rosamond are examples of, although not aware of, the practice of the 'mating game' which so many who went before them and will surely come after them will dance around and play because it's one of even the human animal's necessities that we carry on the species.

Look at all our young couples: the difference between Dorothea and Celia and yet Sir James first wanted Dorothea and is now to marry Celia. Lydgate wanted to marry no one and yet participated in this dance...unfortunately or fortunately with a young lady who was also doing the ritual dance and was QUITE serious about her marital intentions.

I was truly touched by the scene where Dorothea cried and she and Lydgate got 'engaged'. And I'm not sure that Lydgate wants a wife who is 'intellectually and ideologically' suited to him. He has already earlier expressed what a wife would mean to him: someone pretty and pleasant and who brings laughter and flowers, music and lightness into his home.

I think in those days men found male friends to be intellectually and ideologically well-suited to them (like his friend Farebrother) in many, many cases, and never even thought of it being necessary in a wife except that she never actually and especially never openly disagreed with him, especially ideologically.

Alliemae

p.s. sorry I jumped in with a new scene in the middle of our discussion about Dorothea and Casaubon and Lydgate...I think I'm just a wee bit weary of Dorothea but just for the moment as I guess she is the heroine of the book and we'll all be seeing a lot more of her.

I really love Dorothea, especially her newly expressed vulnerability...but just wanted a little break from her...especially since I am still a soppy romantic who loved that little scene between Rosamond and Lydgate so much...

I believe Faith has found the right response to much of what we are reading in MM. That no doubt would leave the author very disappointed. She goes to so much trouble to show that the only heartfelt emotion in the book is pity, even going so far as to say about Casaubon:

'For my part I am very sorry for him.'

She's lying through her teeth. The author has been on Casaubon's case from the very beginning, taking every opportunity to say something negative about him, or to point out his shortcomings, or to insinuate a preposterous caricature of manhood, and even to slander the scholarly life. For much of it she gives no evidence. We have to take her word for it. She won't even give Dorothea a chance to discover the real Casaubon for us. The author seems only determined to prejudice the reader into wishing him dead, so Dorothea can get on with her life. The author's pity, it's obvious, is really intended for Dorothea.

It seems very superficial to me to suggest that men were unconcerned about the expectations of women entering into a state of matrimony with them. That they did not agonize over their ability to make their wives happy. Or even if they were good enough for their chosen. Fred worries about pleasing Mary. Lydgate wants to be certain he can afford Rosamond. Why isn't Casaubon given a chance to prove himself. There is something to be read into that little exchange between Dorothea and her husband:

'What shall I do?' Whatever you please, my dear.'

Isn't Rosamond dying to hear that from Lydgate? So that she can get on with planning their lives together.

Of course, Dorothea deserves pity. But why would the author insist on misplacing hers. She must be guilty about what she is making of Casaubon. A ghostly stag indeed! But Dorothea isn't half as pessimistic about her situation as the author herself. Dorothea gives every indication of not giving up just yet.

Alliemae, you and I had the opposite reaction to the engagement scene. I wanted to shout, "Run, Lydgate, run!" I don't find anything about Rosamond touching. I don't like her. Sorry that Lydgate and Dorothea hadn't been able to match up--D. was already taken with (shudder) Casaubon by the time she first saw Lydgate.

I think Rosamond is just plain silly. She is already decorating her house and no doubt naming all the darling little doll children she will have with Lydgate (without a single thought to bringing them into the world and the problems they may present). Babi, I also noticed that Mrs. Bullstrode tried to warn Rosamond that Lydgate didn't have any money. Rosamond thinks this doesn't matter since he is related to a prominent family. She just doesn't have any idea that all that furniture she plans to decorate with is going to cost money. She is as impracticle as her brother Fred.

I found the section about Casaubon in chapter XXIX where his situation and his plans for marriage are being discussed:

On such a young lady [Casaubon] would make handsome settlements, and he would neglect no arrangement for her happiness: in return, he should receive family pleasures and leave behind him that copy of himself which seemed so urgently required of a man -- to the sonneteers of the sixteenth century. Times had altered since then, and no sonneteer had insisted on Mr. Casaubon's leaving a copy of himself; moreover, he had not yet succeeded in issuing copies of his mythological key; but he had always intended to acquit himself by marriage. . . (My italics)

The sixteenth century's most famous sonneteer was Shakespeare and he mentioned in a number of sonnets to the young gentleman that he must marry and produce a "copy of himself."

The closing couplet from sonnet xvii is:

But were some child of yours alive that time,
You should live twice, in it, and in my rhyme.

And all of Sonnet ix is devoted to urging the young man to marry. Here is the sonnet:

Is it for fear to wet a widow's eye,
That thou consum'st thy self in single life?
Ah! if thou issueless shalt hap to die,
The world will wail thee like a makeless wife;
The world will be thy widow and still weep
That thou no form of thee hast left behind,
When every private widow well may keep
By children's eyes, her husband's shape in mind:
Look what an unthrift in the world doth spend
Shifts but his place, for still the world enjoys it;
But beauty's waste hath in the world an end,
And kept unused the user so destroys it.
No love toward others in that bosom sits
That on himself such murd'rous shame commits.

My italics again.

DEEMS...that is sooooooo funny...and I, on the other hand wanted to scream at Rosamond, "LET HIM GO...for heavens sake, LET HIM JUST GO!!" But, having been there I know how hard that is. And as I said...'being a soppy romantic' well, I guess I just let them both fall into the same proverbial pothole in the street and even was 'touched' when they got together!! (smile) Yes...I AM a hopeless romantic...that's why I love 19th century novels. Luckily, I am also a pragmatic idealist which I think, being both, is why I LOVE this novel by GE.

Alliemae--What a combination you are! A hopeless romantic and a pragmatic idealist. I wish I knew what I am? I'll let everyone know just as soon as I find out.

I was touched by that scene too. Whether you like Rosamund or not, Lydgate acted like an idiot with her, first "just flirting", nothing serious, of course, and then when it gets through his thick head that it is serious, avoiding her like the plague. She has every right to be upset. He obviously already has some feeling for her, or he wouldn't have jumped on the first excuse to see her.

I know a number of people who became engaged when they were carried away by a moment of comforting one of them in trouble. They mistook the tenderness and wish to comfort one who is sorrowing for love. Only one these relationships ended well. It is a bad mistake, but a very human one. We have to like Lydgate better than we would if he had just walked away. And Rosamund better that she still has some natural feelings. But they are both spoiled children.

After they're engaged, everyone acts like an idiot. It would only take one of the principal (Mr. Vincy, Lydgate, Rosamund) paying a minute of attention for them to realize that they can't afford to marry unless Rosamund is willing to live in poverty for awhile. But they all blunder along.

Someone asked earlier about the main theme of this novel. Despite the complexities of characters and the multitude of ideas expressed, I think some of the main themes come down to some simple and age-old questions: What is love? What do people look for in a spouse? What makes a successful marriage? Why do some people make such inappropriate choices?

The author lets us view a wide variety of love stories and marriages in this book, some recent, some long-term, some successful, some disastrous. We see a wide variety of characters, old and young, struggle with love and marriage and the difficulties that these relationships always bring. We see intellectuals, politicians, saints, sinners, schemers, spoiled brats, the level-headed, idealists, rich, poor, uppercrust, lower class, kind, cruel....and so on. Why do some relationships work while others don't? Some couples manage to be happy. Others are destroyed. Some people learn from their mistakes, grow, adjust; others never will.

The author has a wonderful ability to touch our feelings and draw the reader into these relationships until we're cheering for some characters while hoping others will die.

Re: the Rosamond/Lydgate affair.... I think one important reason Rosamond wants Lydgate is that he is from out of town. This is tantalizing to her. If she's anything like I and my friends were at her age, she wants to get out of the small town where she has spent her life. She may not quite realize it yet, but she recognizes in Lydgate someone who may be able eventually to whisk her off to the big city and a glamourous lifestyle. I think she'll use all of her wiles to make this happen. Look out, Tertius! The guy is such a sucker for a beautiful feminine woman. He has such an intellect, but it's all for naught when it comes to love.

Marni

I agree with your themes suggestion. MM is what you write but not only that. It is also about how different men do the same career differently. The Preachers and the Doctors, the Writers and the Artists the slackers and the misfits and yes, the Vultures and the doves who will be devoured by them.

Men had careers then but women didn't. GE must be thinking of what her life might have been without her wonderful talent and thinking of the lack of opportunity for women to express themselves NOT in relation to men but in relation to society.

GE sees the women for who they are but as yet does not denigrate them in any way as she does some of the men. Don't forget how her family of origin abandoned her because of her life style. This had to eat at her even though she may have pretended otherwise.

What is the book about? It is early and presumptive to give a full answer to that question. At this point partial answers suffice. And Love is always the thing that makes the world go round. (Or is it Oil?)

Judy

Oh goodness, such deep questions to consider - before breakfast! Marni, you ask hard questions - "What is love? What do people look for in a spouse? What makes a successful marriage? Why do some people make such inappropriate choices? Why do some relationships work while others don't? Some couples manage to be happy. Others are destroyed." My son is getting married next Saturday and naturally, these are motherly concerns.
How do we see Eliot answering these tough questions? From your posts -

*He (Lydgate) certainly didn't want anyone else to have her favor above him." Alliemae, his ego, right?

"His pride is touched and he proposes."

"Rosamond acts like she is in love with L but what she loves is he flatters her vanity."
* "Of course, you and I realize how much of Rosamond's pain is over the loss of all the dreams and plans she had so happily made, but she doesn't."

"... someone pretty and pleasant and who brings laughter and flowers, music and lightness into his home." (Alliemae - doesn't Lydgate resemble Casaubon in his expectations for married life?)

"She may not quite realize it yet, but she recognizes in Lydgate someone who may be able eventually to whisk her off to the big city and a glamourous lifestyle."

"On such a young lady [Casaubon] would make handsome settlements, and he would neglect no arrangement for her happiness: in return, he should receive family pleasures and leave behind him that copy of himself.">

"I appreciate Mrs. Bulstrode and her attempt to warn her niece that she will find no "high life" with Lydgate. At least Rosamond cannot complain that no one ever tried to advise her." Babi...does Mrs. B. show concern for Rosalyn or does she merely want Lydgate for her own daughter? I'm beginning to suspect every character of acting out of self-interest and vanity. Have we begun to think of Dorothea in such terms? "D. is all self-sacrifice, but as Celia says she enjoys giving things up. She isn't really tuned to what C. needs."

Babi - "Can you lean on me, dear?" Poignant yes. Do we really fault Dorothea for her desire to find personal satisfaction - gratification?

Flora, I take heart in your observation - "Dorothea isn't half as pessimistic about her situation as the author herself. Dorothea gives every indication of not giving up just yet. Shall we just ignore the author's voice? As you indicate, "she lies through her teeth." hahaha, I am still laughing at your comment!

Perhaps Eliot is saying that we, each of us, are incapable of perceiving reality other than through the prism of our own egos? If that is a given, then perhaps this is not the real theme of the book, but only one small underlying component.

Judy's quip - "Love is always the thing that makes the world go round. (Or is it Oil?)" - or is it Grease for the palm...money, property seem to make the Middlemarch world go round, don't they?

Judy - your comment about (Eliot's) family abandoning her because of her life style sent me to check out the biographical comments on her relationship with George Lewis. I wondered if Lewis hadn't made an unfortunate, unhappy early marriage for all the wrong reasons and why he stayed married all those years he and Eliot were living together. (Thought it was interesting that his wife outlived both of them!) This was an eye-opener, just as I was getting used to the Victorian mind-set. I guess I knew Eliot had become a free-thinker and her life style was considered scandalous, but geeee, look at Lewis and his wife!

Excerpts from Comprehensive Biography of George Eliot - a link found in the heading of this discussion.

"Though still a serious young woman, inclined to depression and self-doubt and painfully conscious of her plain appearance, Mary Ann began to show that she was not just formidably intelligent and knowledgeable, but also sharp-witted and imaginatively gifted. In October 1846 Charles Bray received a letter in which she gave evidence that she possessed all the qualities required of a novelist: wit, wisdom, imagination, and an ability to turn her own experience to good account fictionally.

she is desperate to be saved from the ‘horrific disgrace of spinster-hood’... The letter turns her learning to light-hearted and witty account, and makes a brave joke about her plain looks and her anxiety that, at the age of nearly twenty-seven, she may not find a husband, as well as providing a shrewd preparatory sketch for Mr Casaubon in Middlemarch.

It was in October 1851, too, that Marian Evans first met Lewes. He had no religious faith. He was married and unable to sue for a divorce. In February 1841 Lewes had married Agnes Jervis (1822–1902), the beautiful eighteen-year-old daughter of a radical MP, Swynfen Jervis. They had agreed to have an open marriage, the result of which was that in addition to having three surviving sons by Lewes, Agnes had by 1851 borne two children whose father was not Lewes, but his friend Thornton Hunt. She was to have two more children by Hunt in 1853 and 1857. Lewes, having entered on this open marriage, registered the first two of these children as his own. When he subsequently met and fell in love with Marian Evans, he could not sue for divorce, as under the terms of the law he had condoned his wife's adultery by registering the births of her children by Hunt in his own name. Though he was by 1853 disillusioned with his domestic arrangements—and notably did not register the birth of Agnes's daughter Ethel, born in October 1853—he had disqualified himself from ever seeking a divorce.

He had, however, left Agnes, probably in 1852, although he visited her and his children frequently at their home in Kensington, supported them financially, and was generous to Agnes for the rest of his life, as was Marian after his death. Agnes, who outlived them both by many years. Marian, who instinctively shrank from publicity and from scandal—though ironically the great decisions of her life involved her in both—did not want to bear children who would suffer from having parents who were not married."

So far our list of reasons to get married follow the list of 'seven deadly sins', doesn't it seem? 'Ego...Pride...Vanity...' and let's not forget a touch of Greed...

re: "...who brings laughter and flowers, music and lightness into his home." er...um...if anyone brought these into Casaubon's life I think he might have another 'fit' but that's just my personal opinion!!

I do agree with Babi about Mrs. Bulstrode. I wondered even as I read that part what might have happened if Dorothea had had a Mrs. Bulstrode in her life, but then, would she have listened?

I, also, give Mrs. Bulstrode a lot of credit for stepping up and being an honest-to-goodness adult... maybe one of the few I think we've met so far in the book.

Marni, I do agree that one of the subjects of the book is love and marriage but I think it's also about something else and I can't figure that out just yet. Like Judy, I think that will be clearer as we get further on into the book.

I think there is a lot of GE in the book and I'll be interested in seeing what she brings us in the future of MM, especially now that we know so much more about her own life.

Joan P what wonderful information about GE!!! Thank you...thank you...thank you!!!

Morning all. I've been reading all the posts so forgive me if I missed something Joan P wrote.

Does everyone know that the little "Keepsake" up in the heading is clickable?

If you click on the cover, you can look at some of the pages from the 1834 (I think) edition of this popular periodical. There are illustrations as well.

Cat in my backyard. Dogs barking. Later. . . . . . .

Maryal

What IS it with cats and dogs?

This one, the one in the backyard, lives next door.

He taunts the dogs; the dogs taunt him.

Sort of like characters in novels who don't get along.

I believe Edward Casaubon would have been delighted to have some 'laughter and flowers, music and lightness' brought into his life. It must have been surprising, and disheartening to hear Dorothea say on that first visit to Stone Court that she would not change a thing. Her husband's life would go on just as before. In other words she offers him nothing more than secretarial assistance in his work. He had hoped for more, that she might kindle the unspent passion lurking in his inner being. He ends up feeling that he has no feelings such as were sung about by the sonneteers. There really is nothing between them. He resigns himself to a life of observing all the propieties of married life.

'Propriety (will) predominate over any other satisfaction.' p219

And then Eliot adds the curious line:

'Marriage, like religion and erudition, nay, like authorship itself, was fated to become an outward requirement, and Edward Casaubon was bent on fulfilling unimpeachably all requiremnents.' p219

Let's give him some credit for trying. But after reading Joan P's quotes from the GE bio. this statement must, it seems to me, reflect some of GE's own feelings about the institution of marriage. And religion and erudition and even authorship. As for reasons for getting married, in the Miss Brooke/Edward Casaubon match-up, there is only talk of Providence as an agent. What an odd thought, that, about the seven deadly sins bringing men and women together. If it turns out to be hellish, they have only themselves to blame. Casaubon, it seems, is determined to prevent that. Good for him, the poor devil. How two such intelligent people could not quickly compare notes and come up with something which would be to the advantage of both is beyond me.

Mrs Bulstrode deserves out admiration. It can't be easy living with that man of hers. She seems to manage quite well in keeping one of her feet in this world and the other in the next of her husband's.

Re Cats and Dogs.

Not all are the same .We had a dog, Buster a Rhodesian Ridgeback, and a cat, Kitty, who slept together, ate together and played together. When Kitty died at the age if 14, Buster who was 15 started to die too from sorrow. Three momths later he was dead.

So Love blossoms in strange ways, not always what is meant to be, is. Perhaps in MM Will and Dorothea will be our Buster and Kitty and find true love where there"Is no Evil Day on the Calender."

Judy

Judy

O Judy, what a sad story. Good to hear that they can get along. I think it helps if they are raised together and if the dog is not a Jack Russell Terrier.

Re: "It must have been surprising, and disheartening [for Casaubon] to hear Dorothea say on that first visit to Stone Court that she would not change a thing. Her husband's life would go on just as before. In other words she offers him nothing more than secretarial assistance in his work. He had hoped for more, that she might kindle the unspent passion lurking in his inner being. He ends up feeling that he has no feelings such as were sung about by the sonneteers. There really is nothing between them. He resigns himself to a life of observing all the propieties of married life."

I never got this feeling about Casaubon. I think he would have been shocked and upset to see his world changed around. I do think that, for a moment, when he realized time was passing him by, he wanted a marriage partner. Dorothea fit the bill because she was young and beautiful and could make a quietly pleasant intelligent aide and helpmate. Perhaps he briefly contemplated a child. But I think he realized even before he married Dorothea that he was a person without sexual passion. I got the feeling he was sorry the marriage happened so quickly. I think he was changing his mind before the event actually occurred. I think he may have felt it was another of his duties to carry out the wedding.

Among others a major theme of this novel is Gender roles. Middlemarch society puts each gender in a "box" of expectations. People who deviate from this societal norm are looked down upon. This is most true of women and while D is tolerated because she is a Brook's. However she puts herself in the box by conforming and submitting herself to male leadership.

This book is about Reality too. Many of these people hold preconceived ideas that will prove wrong.

And a major major theme is about Money and Family Obligations. The author has shown us over and over again how the men of that era were protective and besides monetary support gave advise and counsel. However, Casaubon dispenses his obligation by supporting Will. And swears to support the "young thing that brings light and air to his life" He doesn't say love her, he says take care of her which I believe the men of his time thought was love.

So as I watch Mary sitting with Featherstone the night he dies I am thinking of all these things GE has brought forth in this book and I am judging whether Mary has done the right thing or not. I guess we will find out what the town thinks soon enough. Mary for one avoided the temptation of money though this may have negative repercussions on her.

Ah Mary Ann Evans what a book what a book. Did you intentionally try to bring all these themes to your writing or am I doing it. faith

I don't think Casaubon would have noticed if Dorothea had completely redecorated the house and brought all the flowers from the garden in.

Maybe if she had rearranged the furniture (but she'd better not touch his study) he might have accidentally tripped over something and thus noticed that things were not the same.

Faith--Amazing how much she packs in, isn't it? Maybe that's why it's called a novel for adults.

Re: "Re Cats and Dogs."

Judy, what a lovely and touching story. My daughter had her dog for fifteen years before the dog died. Pucci was a beautiful and gentle shepherd/huskie (I think that was the combination) with blue eyes. I used to call her my 'Grandogger'...when she died it was like losing one of the family.

One of my all time regrets is that I am allergic to both cats and dogs...I really feel I am missing something.

Alliemae

Alliemae--I do love that "grandogger." May I steal it? I have a dog and my daughter has a dog, but he is a boy. Drat, it won't work. Maybe the next dog she gets. . . .

"'Marriage, like religion and erudition, nay, like authorship itself, was fated to become an outward requirement, and Edward Casaubon was bent on fulfilling unimpeachably all requirements.' p219"

It sounds to me as if he has a case of clinical depression. If he lived today, he would be on Prozac.

We think of him as so cold, but notice he has no lack of negative emotions when his ego is threatened. It is just positive emotions that he lacks. You would think that D.'s initial admiration would have fed his ego and given him some pleasure. Maybe the admiration of a woman is below his notice. But when she starts to see through him, it's even more unbearable that "even a woman" can see his flaws. A nasty man.

The theme of the novel: someone said that Jane Austen's novels are about love, money, and character. Eliot's are too, clearly. But, as Faith and others have said, there is more. It is about reality, and the ways in which our perceptions of reality are distorted, and lead us into trouble. Especially with regard to gender roles. The men have distorted ideas about the women. And the women have equally distorted ideas about the men. And both have distorted ideas about the roles they themselves are playing.

Deems: re: "I do love that "grandogger." May I steal it" I was crazy about it too...sure hope your daughter gets a girl dogger for you! And when she does, 'grandogger' is all yours!

JoanK: re: "If he lived today, he would be on Prozac." AT LEAST!! (grinning)

Faithr: re: "Using Home Built Computer w/WXP" I've been meaning and meaning to ask you...did you build your own computer? If so...kuddos!!

I don't think the gender thing has disappeared altogether. Sure women have more rights than they did then but they didn't have the 'backlash' to contend with that women do in our time for fighting and getting some of our rights.

I think rights are frequently more economically based than gender based, or at least as much. My mom was a stay at home mom in the 1950's and planned her work so that she had quite a bit of time to express herself and her interests. My dad, on the other hand, had to work so hard five or six days a week and for many years did piece work and all he had the time, energy and interest to do was come home, eat supper and fall into bed.

Just a random thought...Alliemae

Re: "It sounds to me as if he [Casaubon] has a case of clinical depression. If he lived today, he would be on Prozac."

If he lived today... I can just envision Casaubon sitting hour after hour at his computer doing research and typing notes that he plans one day to use in his masterwork!

Yes, I can't imagine anyone sitting for hours at their computer (LOL).

marni--That's exactly where Casaubon would be today, doing research, wearing out computers, surrounded by notes and printouts of notes, in a dusty room.

And he would refuse any psychological assistance, including Prozac. And young Dorothea would be unable to convince him to seek counseling.

I wonder...Dorothea may soon be getting some good counseling and I think it may come from the good Dr. Lydgate...and I think she just may listen. Yes, if there is any counseling to be had, Dorothea might respond to it for as you say...Casaubon would probably never be convinced of it.

So far I am very emotionally invested in this book as there is a lot or a little of each of the main characters in myself!! Does anyone else feel that way?

Alliemae

I do think that a great part of Dorothea's response to her husband's condition was about self-blame. But what genuinely impressed me was her ability to walk past that in that time of emergency and get directly to the...'tell me what I can do' stage which is priceless in any emergency situation. And it didn't even seem to be her usually 'selfless' position. It was simply showing that she can step up to the problem at hand and be a willing part of the solution rather than drown in selfish recriminations.

I also laud Lydgate for 'getting on with it' rather than playing on her vulnerability as he might have done. He was very professional in spite of his tender feelings.

And I think Dorothea genuinely cares for her husband and also her position as 'a good wife'. It may be that that is a large part of what makes a marriage work...when feelings rise that lead to negative situations it's good to remember that at that moment you may not be so enchanted by your spouse but you have a good, realistic sense of commitment to the marriage. Also, with all his misgivings about losing his privacy as a scholar, it seems that Casaubon does have a commitment to at least his idea of the marriage commitment.

Now I am wondering if these are just things I noticed, jogged on by our discussion points or if GE has something in mind for us with these delicious insights. This is a very pivotal scene it seems to me.

Alliemae

Alliemae, aren't you happy you stuck with the early chapters and got used to Eliot's style? I know several of us were wondering what we got into in the beginning. I wish some of the others had stuck with it - as the rewards are great. How to convince them to pick up the book again?

Faith, what a question! "Ah Mary Ann Evans what a book what a book. Did you intentionally try to bring all these themes to your writing or am I doing it." What do the rest of you think? Did Eliot expect us to get these messages, is she manipulating us so that we can't possibly miss them, or are we seeing more than she realized we would?. Is she such a fine writer of psychological reality, JoanK, that Faith and the rest of us cannot possibly miss the messages and reach these realizations, make our own conclusion? The distorted gender roles you speak of - of both the men and the women, are the psychological motivators of any ROMANCE we see here, I think. Because of this distortion, I'm not sure I identify any "romance" - yet. Maybe something will happen between Will and Dorothea - MAYBE something more between Mary and Fred, but nothing yet. Are we to classify Middlemarch as a Romance novel, or a reality piece?
Don't you wish Eliot were an author-participant in this discussion?

Funny that the list of reasons to get married are the "seven deadly sins" as Alliemae points out! Is that what Eliot expects us to notice!!!? Flora, I'm reaching the conclusion that Eliot has a very dim estimation of marriage. Perhaps it is because she must remain on the outside looking in, due to her situation.

Although, she and Lewis were together for so long, she must have experienced the same ups and downs of married life. Maybe it's the contract that makes marriage stifling to her? She seems to be saying that once married, the woman's role is confined to nothing more than a subservient role.

Marni, I agree, Dorothea brings nothing to the marriage - as you say, she offers nothing more than secretarial assistance in his work. As it turns out, Casaubon really doesn't want her involvement except in a very superficial file-clerk role. He must have thought she'd be busy elsewhere in the house, performing the domestic arts. For her part, Dorothea had noble intentions - being his helpmate, perhaps his soul mate even. Wouldn't this be an unusual role for a wife during this period in history? What do you see in the cards for her future? My crystal ball is murky. Do you see Casaubon and Dorothea producing a child - even out of duty? Or not at all?

Alliemae - that's an interesting thought! Dorothea might possibly get advice from Dr. Lydgate - she is already able to talk to him openly about what she can do to make Casaubon let up on his work schedule a bit. I'd like to explore the feelings of guilt that Dorothea may have. Does she feel she is responsible for his heart attack? Or because she is unable to convince her husband that there is no reason for his jealousy - or because she really does have undefined "inclinations" towards Will for which she feels guilty?

I may be alone on my assessment of Mrs. Bulstrode's motives... still not 100% convinced that she is motivated by Rosamund's best interests, though I won't argue that she is doing just that! I think she would very much prefer to see her own daughter matched with the up and coming doctor. I do agree with Flora, it can't be easy living with that husband of hers! Perhaps Bulstrode wants Lydgate for a son-in-law as well - perhaps he's putting her up to these visits to her brother. You know how Bulstrode likes to manipulate people - why not his own wife?
********************************************* Maryal found the information on the Keepsake edition poor Ned so happily presented to Rosamund to please her - what a putdown from our good doctor! So he doesn't read literature. He is so busy with his medical practice and important research, that he doesn't have time to read? Or is he saying something else about those who DO waste time on literature? Is Eliot saying something through these remarks? If you click on the Keepsake cover found in the heading, you will see some of the authors who contributed to this publication. Will leave it to you to decide whether this is a "light" reading - fluff to be sneered at, as Lydgate has done -

click the cover to read

I quote: " Marni, I agree, Dorothea brings nothing to the marriage - as you say, she offers nothing more than secretarial assistance in his work. As it turns out, Casaubon really doesn't want her involvement except in a very superficial file-clerk role. He must have thought she'd be busy elsewhere in the house, performing the domestic arts. For her part, Dorothea had noble intentions - being his helpmate, perhaps his soul mate even. Wouldn't this be an unusual role for a wife during this period in history? What do you see in the cards for her future? My crystal ball is murky. Do you see Casaubon and Dorothea producing a child - even out of duty? Or not at all?"

I think Dorothea brought much to the marriage and Casabon knew that: her youth and vitality, her appreciation/adoration of his work and of his intelligence and her warmth into his cold and isolated world. He was aware of these qualities before they married. GE describes this directly.

What he did not calculate is the consesquences of these qualities: a more close and critical look at his work, an "interference" of his work's routine, her own desire to use her intelligence, and a basic disruption of his work, which is what he has avoided for many years through his isolation and carefully calculated research moves.

Marriage is so funny: "be careful what you wish for" - the very qualiaties you love are often among the most difficult to live with.

After a week of much overtime and getting flu, it is good to share all your thoughts.

I think GE shared her very rich mind with us in MM in a very interesting way.

I want to mention that Causabon had never had a secretary before:

re Dorothea ": ....she might really be such a helpmate to him as would enable him to dispense with a hired secretary, an aid which Mr. Causabon had never yet employed and had a suspicous dread of.(Mr. C was nervously concious that he was expected to manifest a powerful mind).".

How frail an ego to be afraid even to hire a secretary. Any wonder he broke down under the real life scrutiny of his wife who had only the best of intentions towards him. The man was deluding himself and when he tried hard to make his delusions real he broke down. The man needed much more than Prozac and Marital Counseling.

I must say that I look at the book as a huge feast. Dorothea and Lydgate are the Meat and Potatoes. All the surrounding characters side dishes. Some we adore and others wouldn't want to touch so we despise them. There are enough choices for everyone to choose his favorites to have a grand meal.(Remember the Herring and Kippers as opposed to Marmalade and Crumpets).

What a great Chef Eliot is to prepare all these tasty dishes for us. Even Julia Childe would be jealous.

One last remark. In 1837 I have no idea where the Novel stood in importance. What place did literature play in Men's lives? I too took umbrage at Lydgates remark but then I reconsidered.

How do I click on the picture?? I don't have that picture in my Heading.

Judy

Judy, I was just passing through and see your post - makes me feel like getting into the kitchen and whipping up a feast!

Will be back to comment later this afternoon, but in the meantime, please tell what you see in the heading beside question #4? Do you see a little tiny book cover or the dreaded red x? I repeated the link to the text telling about the Keepsake edition in post #747. Do you see that...at the very bottom of the post? Does it work for you?

Alliemae: Re "...when feelings rise that lead to negative situations it's good to remember that at that moment you may not be so enchanted by your spouse but you have a good, realistic sense of commitment to the marriage."

I think that Mary's parents are an excellent example of this commitment. Their life is far from perfect. But they have been able to adapt to changing circumstances and to each other. They seem level-headed, kind, happy, and they seem to love each other. Good marriage that produced good children.

JoanP: Re "Do you see Casaubon and Dorothea producing a child - even out of duty? Or not at all?"

I tried to envision C and D in bed at this point in the book. Did they even share the same bedroom? I don't remember any specifics about this. It was common for wealthy couples to each have their own rooms. Did C and D? I don't think the author spelled anything out about this. She didn't discreetly suggest anything about them NOT having sexual relations or HAVING relations.

I just found the spot in chpt. 27 where it says that Dorothea read to her husband at night when he couldn't sleep. It helped him to fall asleep. I suppose you could infer that they shared the bedroom if she knew that he couldn't sleep. However, it is hard to tell for sure. She might hear him roaming around from a private bedroom.

Re "Does she [Dorothea] feel she is responsible for his heart attack?"

Yes, I think she feels somewhat responsible because the attack occurred after she told her husband off and he was nervous and upset as a result. Naturally, it had to do with Will. Cas didn't want him coming around anymore.

D had said to Cas: "Why do you attribute to me a wish for anything that would annoy you? You speak to me as if I were something you had to contend against. Wait at least till I appear to consult my own pleasure apart from yours."

Things are getting very tense in the household!!

Marni...although I wasn't thinking of Caleb and Susan when I said that, I agree with you entirely. Maybe they even planted that seed in my mind as I read about them (or was it GE that did the planting??). WOW...now we have 3 adults...love this book!

Alliemae

re: "Alliemae, aren't you happy you stuck with the early chapters and got used to Eliot's style?"

Oh you betcha!! I am so thrilled. Not only that, but I am definitely able to return to my love of 19th Century writing. For years I loved everything 19th century...especially writing and poetry. Then I got tv lazy...it's great to be back!

Alliemae

Yes, MARYAL and ALLIE MAE, you’re right. If there is any changing to be done in this relationship, it is D. who is going to have to do it.

D. grows up in a hurry, doesn’t she. Good point, ALLIE MAE. A practical, get-things-done Dorothea is showing up, as it did in designing the cottages and getting them built. This may be the D. that stays, not the mooning student.

I do find a lot of myself in these characters – not in one, but chopped up and distributed around. Plus a lot of the people that I know.

JOANP: “Is she such a fine writer of psychological reality, JoanK, that Faith and the rest of us cannot possibly miss the messages and reach these realizations, make our own conclusion? “

What a question! I think the combination of her writing, and the fact that her depiction of gender roles fits exactly with the twentieth century discussion that we are all familiar with means that WE can’t miss that message at least. I’m very curious to know what her readers of the time made of it.

With Judy, I wonder if men read literature? Would they have read MM and what would they have made of it?

“Dorothea had noble intentions - being his helpmate, perhaps his soul mate even. Wouldn't this be an unusual role for a wife during this period in history? “

Not necessarily. I just saw the program on Einstein’s big idea. They traced the roots of e=mc2 through earlier science. Many of the scientists they showed had women “helpmeets”, or even were women themselves.

BBC: good to have you back. . Take care of yourself. I agree. How could C. not think that he wanted this adoring disciple. But he finds out that she didn’t leave her brains behind when she married. His delicate ego can’t tolerate an intelligent critic in the house – it takes his safe space away.

Good point, MARNI. We have one example of a happy marriage. And Mrs. Garth is doing what women who chafe under women’s roles are urged to do: defer to men but also manage to rule the roost.

ALLIEMAE: it’s great to have you back!

JoanP

Thank you. This time I found and read the site you suggessted.

I will be busy with Houseguests the next three or four days. Will return to MM when they leave.

Judy

Enjoy. We'll miss you.

Poor Dorothea, filled with 'scorn and indignation' after a few not uneasonable words about not wanting Ladislaw around. I think as adult readers we can see that a bit of male jealousy has made Casaubon impatient. Dorothea reads him correctly. Her woman's heart knows that Ladislaw has come between them, just as the reader does. She does not handle the situation the way a mature woman would. Instead she soothes her own vulnerability with the defensive thought:

'Mr Casaubon seemed to be stupidly undiscerning and odiously unjust.'

and the reassurance to her husband that she has yet to 'consult my pleasure apart from yours.' She would never 'wish for anything that would annoy you.'

What a dicey situation. As regards the sexual relations in this marriage, with the late night reading and the curious name of Lowick as Casaubon's manor, or manner, I believe the Victorian reader would have concluded that Casaubon was impotent. A perfect candidate. After the harsh treatment at the hands of the author, I'm not surprised.

I'm as eager as anyone to get on with the story. It's fairly certain that Casaubon has not long to live. In such situations the widow has been known to pick up the labors of many years and prepare them for publication. Ladislaw has spoiled all that with his criticisms of the work of his cousin Casaubon. It seems inevitable that Dorothea and Ladislaw will be attracted to each other. With the ghost of Casaubon hovering over them, anything could happen. Eliot's imagination would be up to it. Something leaves me in doubt whether Ladislaw is right for Dorothea. He has no idea where he is going. We were told in an earlier chapter that he's inclined to believe that the great ideas come by way of inspiration. One has only to await the grand moment. Rather than explore unknown regions, he would rather leave them to the imagination. That's not too reassuring. On the other hand they are very close in age. Flora

First of all...Thanks, JoanK! Not only am I 'back' but I now have to stop myself from disappearing into a book instead of having to fight to concentrate on at least one page. Thank you SeniorNet!!

I have a question re: Casaubon's Pamphlets...the "Parerga"...

"He suspected the Archdeacon of not having read them; he was in painful doubt as to what was really thought of them by the leading minds of Brasenose, and bitterly convinced that his old acquaintance Carp had been the writer of that depraciatory recension which was kept locked in a small drawer of Mr. Casaubon's desk, and also in a dark closet of his verbal memory."

Proceeding on the assumption that authors have a reason for introducing names, places, incidents--past or present--into a tale, does anyone think we will be hearing a deeper explanation of the above? Is it going to be re-introduced later, I wonder, or is GE just adding more details to explain Casaubon? (Or have we already gone into this? I couldn't find any mention in the previous posts but got tired reading them...we sure did give this segment a once-over!!)

Which Archdeacon?

Where is Brasenose?

And, who was Carp?

I wonder what that 'depraciatory recension' actually said???

Oh dear, I'm beginning to feel like Miss Marple!!

Also, in the same paragraph, does this sound a little like the Wizard at "Oz":

"...behind the big mask and the speaking trumpet, there must always be our poor little eyes peeping as usual and our timorous lips more or less under anxious control."

I hope you will all pardon my frequent references and comparisons to 'Pop Culture'; I feel that it's as valid sociologically and, as above, psychologically as the earlier artistic and literary expressions that we cherish from other times and cultures which we refer to when trying to understand characters.

Alliemae

After being away from the board for a few days, imagine my delight at finding 50 new posts, all interesting, entertaining, and educational, as usual! Here are my thoughts on the various topics raised (sorry for the length):

I think Dorothea did feel she was partially to blame when Casaubon suffered his attack right after she had stood up to him. However, for some unexplained reason, I don’t think she will blame herself for his death. I am out on a limb there, seeing as we have no evidence yet.

I have eliminated Fred from the deathwatch. I hope he doesn’t die! I have high hopes for his development into a responsible young man.

I don’t expect Dorothea and Casaubon to have children. I had the same concerns as Marni --- were they even having sex? There seemed to be no evidence that they were. Then I read Flora’s post this morning and remembered that I, too, had once thought that Casaubon might be impotent, based on something I had read, but who knows where or when at this point. I love the reference to Lowick! I definitely hadn’t made that connection.

Moreover, I don’t think having a child together would help their relationship in any way. I have heard or read that children magnify the relationship, so problems become worse and good things about the relationship become better. I can understand that. Dorothea and Casaubon don’t have much of a foundation with each other upon which to build a family. I just don’t see it happening.

I, too, highlighted the quote, “Marriage, like religion and erudition, nay, like authorship itself, was fated to become an outward requirement, and Edward Casaubon was bent on fulfilling all requirements” (pg. 267 B&N edition). To me, this clearly defines Casaubon’s motivations --- he his fulfilling a societal requirement, not a Casaubon desire.

I especially enjoyed reading everyone’s reactions to the scene with Rosamund and Lydgate late in Chapter XXXI. I, like most, was glad to see Lydgate react to Rosamund as a person rather than as an object when she became teary. However, when I read, “In half an hour he left the house an engaged man,” I literally yelled out, “What?!?!?!?” My nine year old son, who was sitting near me, asked why I said that. I think my reply to him was something like, “Because two people just got engaged for no reason.” What was Lydgate thinking?!?!? Of course, Rosamund had wanted this and was thrilled, but I can’t understand Lydgate’s motivation. I was glad to read later that they expected the engagement to be a long one. Maybe they will actually get to know each other before they marry! Oh, good grief…

I fear that Mary made a big mistake not following Featherstone’s deathbed wishes. Time will tell…and I can’t wait to find out more about this. I feel there is more going on than we readers know yet.

“Did Eliot expect us to see these messages, or is she manipulating us s that we can’t possibly miss them, or are we seeing more than she realized we would?” I think Eliot is a master manipulator! She wanted people to discuss her work, and people did have the opportunity to do so in between installments.

I am so glad we all stuck out the first 150 pages too! I am reading this book for pleasure now!

Welcome back, Laura--Loved what you said about your son's reaction to your reaction as well as your explanation. Two people who shouldn't have just got engaged. What a wonderful example you just unconsciously gave your son of how we can get so involved in a book that we speak out loud to the characters! He's a lucky nine-year-old.

alliemae--You wrote:

"I have a question re: Casaubon's Pamphlets...the "Parerga"...

"He suspected the Archdeacon of not having read them; he was in painful doubt as to what was really thought of them by the leading minds of Brasenose, and bitterly convinced that his old acquaintance Carp had been the writer of that depraciatory recension which was kept locked in a small drawer of Mr. Casaubon's desk, and also in a dark closet of his verbal memory."

Proceeding on the assumption that authors have a reason for introducing names, places, incidents--past or present--into a tale, does anyone think we will be hearing a deeper explanation of the above? Is it going to be re-introduced later, I wonder, or is GE just adding more details to explain Casaubon? (Or have we already gone into this? I couldn't find any mention in the previous posts but got tired reading them...we sure did give this segment a once-over!!) "

I'll take a stab at an answer. If I remember correctly Carp is one of the clergymen in town (I may be wrong about this). The Archdeacon, not named, would be the fellow in charge of the whole area Casaubon lives in (I think) and Casaubon wants a reaction to his work from this man, but he worries that the Archdeacon is not even reading his pamplets ("parerga").

I'll bet the Archdeacon has better things to do than to read these crabbed pamphlets. Casaubon is writing them in order to be seen to be producing something I think. Obviously he is never going to actually write his Key to All Mythologies.

As for whether or not we will see the Archdeacon again, I have no clue. If we do, I think he will be named. As for Brasenose--it sounds like a fictional town, perhaps the home of the diocese, to me. "Brasenose" is a funny name, if you think about it. Picture a nose with a brace on it to keep it snooty and in the air.

daytripper has already commented on "Lowick" as the name of Casaubon's estate:

"What a dicey situation. As regards the sexual relations in this marriage, with the late night reading and the curious name of Lowick as Casaubon's manor, or manner, I believe the Victorian reader would have concluded that Casaubon was impotent. A perfect candidate. After the harsh treatment at the hands of the author, I'm not surprised."

I got a chuckle out of that response. Imagine the power of the author. If said person is unkind to her male characters, they become impotent! Now that is power.

Maryal

I think everyone underestimates Mary Garth. For a plain and simple women she certainly understands the complicated people around her, perhaps more than any other person in this book. People who judge Mary by what she appears, shy and modest do not see what she is inside. She has great forsight regarding this Will and she was right in my opinion not to take the old geezers money nor open his locked box.fai

hahaha, Marni, I'll address your question, and attempt to explain the punning, but will be awfully embarrassed if I've read more into the comments than intended.

Lowick is the Casaubon's home. Several of our participants see strong indication that Rev. Casaubon is impotent and that is sometimes associated with having a low wick...Gosh, I'm hoping that's what you are saying here!

I'm still of the opinion that duty-bound Casaubon will consider it one of his husbandly obligations to produce a child. You don't need to share a room every night, nor do you need great passion for this "duty"...but I suppose you do need more than a low wick...I'm wondering if Dorothea must produce a child in order to inherit his estate?

We all seem to think that Casaubon is going to die soon. Does he know that, do you suppose? If so, I think he would be concerned about leaving his mark on the world in some way. Leaving a child would be one way. Another would be to leave meaningful work - to publish something. He seems to have put aside his Key to Mythologies, and is now working on the Egyptian histories - not sure if they relate to the Mythologies. He is still bitter about dedicating a previous work to Carp...

"it was a poisonous regret to Mr Casaubon that he had once addressed a dedication to Carp in which he had numbered that member of the animal kingdom among the / viros nullo oevo perituros, / a mistake which would infallibly lay the dedicator open to ridicule in the next age..."

He's nursing a strong grudge against Carp for ridiculing him. Casaubon doesn't forget real or perceived slights. I think we will see Carp again - IF Cas. lives long enough to get back at him...

DAY TRIPPER: “late night reading and the curious name of Lowick as Casaubon's manor, or manner, I believe the Victorian reader would have concluded that Casaubon was impotent.” I agree. how clever of you to catch Lowick (low wick) as the name of C.’s house

I think Eliot gave us a hint of C.’s impotency back on p. 61 (Penguin):

“(Casaubon) determined to abandon himself to the stream of feeling, and perhaps was surprised to find what an exceedingly shallow rill it was. As in draughty regions baptism by immersion can only be performed symbolically....(he) found that sprinkling was the utmost approach to a plunge which his stream would afford him, and he concluded that the poets had much exaggerated the force of masculine passion”

(LAURA: was this what you had remembered reading?)

Yes, we don’t quite know who Will will grow up to be yet. We’ll have to wait and see.

ALLIEMAE: hey, you can’t mention Miss Marple too often for me. One of my role models (even if I can’t knit). I suspect Brasenose and Carp will remain in the background. We know all we need to from the names. Those of us who have been anywhere near Academe have known half a dozen Carps and can hear the petty squabbling that is going on in these papers and reviews. Interesting that he keeps the bad one locked up in his desk drawer. Most Carps and Counter-Carps would have fired off an even nastier counter-attack. C. really has low self esteem!

FAITH THINKS Mary did the right thing by refusing to destroy the will. Next week we all (including Mary) will find out what the result was. But without knowing, do you think she was right or wrong?

OK, fellow Latin students. Do you understand the mistake C. made in his dedication to Carp?

By the way: if all this fussing about Featherstone's money has made you worry about Dorothea when C. dies, remember that we were told that she has an independent income. She should be alright, no matter what happens to C's money

Yes, it would be nice if someone could explain the mistake made in the dedication. It seems to me Casaubon must have allowed himself some sarcasm or humor at Carp's expense. It angered Carp, and now Casaubon is embarrassed over it? He must have been playing with Carp's name, and succeeded in making himself look foolish? Casaubon seems to think that he will be judged on it by later generations? Casaubon seems concerned about his reputation. We know that he can be timid professionally.

Brasenose would be the college at Oxford, I would guess. His old college. He likes to think that his fellow Brasenosians are following his scholastic endeavors, and reading all the the Parergas he sends out into the world.

WHAT?!?!?!

I could hear it from here, Laura...

Wasn't that in character. Dr Lydgate can't bear to see a maiden in distress. Didn't he jump onto the stage in Paris, to offer assistance to the actress who had just accidentally killed her husband, and offered her a marriage proposal soon thereafter? He really makes it too easy for Rosamond.

I reacted with a similiar WHAT?! on reading about Mary's refusal to do what old Featherstone asked of her. Her moral qualms were completely unnecessary. I don't see any right or wrong in the situation. It frustrated Featherstone's final will. I suppose we could feel that it served him right for the nasty game he was playing with all his would-be beneficiaries. What a role poor Mary is asked to play. I hope she doesn't live to regret it.

And now we get to the action of the book. Also we have become so familiar with the characters, that I think we might have some opinions of our own about what the author puts them through. It's a glorious book, and it's author a real genius.

Poor DoDo-everything has been diminished since her marriage to the old coot. I can’t believe he would wish a miniature of himself! Yuk! He seems so, well- asexual it makes me wonder how he’d accomplish this task. I love the way Eliot describes him in this paragraph. “Mr. C had never had a strong bodily frame, and his soul was sensitive without being enthusiastic, it was too languid to thrill out of self-consciousness into passionate delight; it went on fluttering in the swampy ground where it was hatched , thinking of its wings and never flying.” This new bliss was NOT bliss to him. hahahaa
Now wouldn’t you all love to have your daughter bring this guy home?

I shouldn’t laugh, Eliot hit my first marriage right on the nail with this remark:"There are answers, in which turning away wrath, only send it to the other end of the room and to have a discussion coolly waived when you feel that justice is all on your own side is even more exasperating in marriage than in philosophy." I love that!
Is this guy going to die? Who(m) shall I pick on now, if he does? Hurray-- Will is coming to town, thanks to Mr. Brooke.

Mr. Featherstone could leave his monies to me, if Mary objects to taking it.

Mary's role in the death bed scene: I think she acted as she did because she was fully aware of her position in things: a lowly girl 'servant' with ties to Fred could very very easily be accused of foul play and Mary was shrewd enough to know it and protect herself. I am not saying it was not a moral thing, but it was certainly more.

Low wick - Oh, you guys are bad!!

I never got the impression Cas was impotent, just lacking in any interest in sex, lacking in sexual drive. I think of impotence as being very different - that an impotent man is physically unable to perform sexually and feels anxious about it or guilty or that he is not a man. Cas doesn't strike me like that. He seems rather vaguely sorry that he lacks passion.

Yes, I'm glad, too, that Will is coming to town, Will of the thick bouncing curls who is so very interested in Mrs. Casaubon.

Heh, heh. Yes, Eliot has C. down pat, doesn't she. Was he married on that early affair of hers, do you think? Anyway, she's known someone like that.

So, we differ on Mary. I feel she should have roused the household, so there could be witnesses. But she didn't, too late now.

Those curls!! Nowadays, men hate having curls. My oldest grand has absolutely beautiful curly red hair, and his father keeps it practically shaved because he was teased about his curls when he was young. Obviously, curls were thought of differently then. Eliot seems obsessed with them.

JOANK, I certainly missed that passage re. Casaubon, and unfortunately it is not on p. 61 of my Penguin edition. That passage makes it pretty clear that there is not a great deal of passion in Mr. C's makeup.

I consider Mary Garth's decision a very wise one, and she says herself that doing as Mr. Featherstone demanded would injure her reputation. Can you imagine what those rapacious family members would have said if the old man had died, and Mary was in possession of a hunk of money, saying he had given it to her?! They would have accused her of theft; you know they would. And to call Fred in privately would have had exactly the result Mary feared; charges of collusion between them, if nothing else. She would have called him, if Mr. Featherstone had also allowed her to call witnesses as well.

I think it highly suspicious that he refused that reasonable request. He was a spiteful old man, and IMO his last wish was to do one more spiteful thing. I think Mary saved herself a great deal of grief by refusing to have anything to do with it.

Notice this comment about Mary: "..having early had strong reason to believe that things were not likely to be arranged for her peculiar satisfaction, she wasted no time in astonishment and annoyance at that fact."

Isn't that exactly opposite to Fred Vincy's view of the world, expecting that things were bound to be arranged to his satisfaction, and quite surprised when they were not?

Babi

Yes, it is. And a good philosophy, too. I'll double check my page number when I get back this evening.

Good observation, Babi. What a pair the two would make. I'm interested in the title of the upcoming Book - Three Love Problems, wondering if we'll hear more on Mary and Fred...one of the problematic couples we've encountered so far.

I can't help but think of what Mary has done in refusing to burn the second will. Why would there even be a second will? How many people have a second will drawn up with the intention of destroying it before they die? Mary is ignorant of the contents - of BOTH wills. Why did he choose this moment to ask Mary to burn one of them? Does he know he's dying? Mary doesn't know he'll die this night - probably wanted to wait till morning to get a witness. Couldn't she have done what he asked, without taking the money? What harm would come? Who would know he had asked her to burn one? Who knew that there were two wills? I suppose the lawyer who drew them up knew. I wonder who that was?

Once again, we put aside a Book with a cliffhanger - certain to send us out to the book stalls for the next one - two months from now...

Eliot certainly has the knack of the serial, doesn't she.

Mary's concern starts before F. offers her money. She is afraid that when it comes out that a will was destroyed (and it would, since the lawyer who drew it up would know of it's existence), everyone might think that Mary had done it without F's consent. The relatives are suspicious of her already, and think she might be up to no good. Of course she has no way of knowing whether burning the will would benefit her, but she feels she can't take that chance.

As to having two wills, that is F.'s weapon of choice. he threatens people by saying he's going to change his will. I'm surprised that there aren't six wills, instead of only two!!

JoanK, I found your quote which possibly hints at Casaubon’s impotence on page 57 of the B&N edition (at the beginning of Chapter VII). I don’t think this is what I was thinking of. I feel like I read something in an early chapter, one in which Casaubon was described for one of the first times. I looked and cannot find it. I know I did not mark it. Clearly, even if he is not impotent, his hormones are running on low.

I am looking forward to finding out the results of Mary’s decision not to burn the will. I find myself very torn about whether or not she should have followed Featherstone’s last minute wishes.

Here are two medical quotes which I found of interest :

Lydgate “not only used his stethoscope (which had not become a matter of course in practice at that time), but sat quietly by his patient and watched him (beginning of Chapter XXX).”

Imagine, looking at the patient to diagnose the problem! Hmmm…

Lydgate comments, “But I don’t really like attending such people so well as the poor. The cases are more monotonous, and one has to go through more fuss and listen more deferentially to nonsense (beginning of Chapter XXXI.”

I couldn’t understand how some of you thought Dorothea and Lydgate might make a good couple until I read this second medical quote --- they both have an interest in the less fortunate. Ah ha! Maybe then…

My mother did the same thing- she changed her will more often than her underwear. One time she really went on a rampage about me and my brother and left it all to the church. That was until the Deacon ran off with the minister's wife.
It's a true story, I swear it is.

LAURA: thanks. The quote is on the first page of Chapter VII, whichever page it's on in your book.

Yes, Lydgate and D. share an interest in the poor. But perhaps L.'s flaw is that he is not good at "listening deferentially to nonsense". I fear it may get him in trouble one day. I had a bit of the same problem when I was working.

ALF: That's funny! I hope she wound up doing something sensible. I have the opposite problem. The will I made thirty years ago is outdated, and I keep putting off changing it.

Mary had to have a heart of stone to sit at his bedside and watch the old man cry himself to ~~sleep~~ death. He REALLY wanted that first will to be his final word - with all his heart, what there was of a heart...

"For the first time in her life Mary saw old Peter Featherstone begin to cry childishly."

But then when she continued to refuse, he turned violent, hurling his stick at her.

A second thought - IF Featherstone wanted the first will to stand above all else, why didn't he consent to letting Fred AND Mr. Jonah Featherstone come in to witness? He was just downstairs. Was Featherstone to his last breath, trying to manipulate his family in ways we do not yet know?

Babi, that is a very well-reasoned defence of Mary's decision not to make herself an accomplice in that silly codicil game that Featherstone was playing on his death-bed. #773

Eliot certainly gives the English-fiction fascination of will-making and will-reading a novel twist with all this midnight madness in F's bedroom. What thoughts must have gone through his mind when he realized that what he really wanted would not happen? What an abject figure this crotchety old curmudgeon becomes in the end, trying to buy Mary's comlicity. You're right in pointing out all the practical, prudential reasons she had for refusing to comply with Featherstone's dying wish. And also what an amazing revelation of her character, as good and true as any we have met so far.

Just the same, I believe readers have been led to believe that Featherstone's intent is to do something for Fred in the end, after 'buying' so much attention to himself from everyone else in his old age. Who can doubt that he would want to leave a substantial part of his property to Fred. And Mary? Of all the people around him, only Mary is not expecting anything. I hope she is not disappointed. What a darling. She and Mrs Cadwallader must be the only two who have no illusions about life. Or are there others?

I feel disappointed that we have not learned more about the dead man. We know nothing about him. He leaves the stage, after having played his minor role.

Well, let's turn the page...Book Four, Three Love Problems. The suspense is killing me! Curtain rises at Featherstone's well-attended funeral. You never knew he had so many friends, did you?

I thank you all for two weeks of wonderful reading … your posts, which took me that long after coming home from a five-day trip! Every time I was able to get here there were forty more. When I found I had over 100 to go, I just sat here and read. Your comments helped me to remember and understand the action and motives and made Eliot’s comments clearer to me. Thanks, again! It’s good to be back, at last!

Jonah and young Cranch in the kitchen, Solomon, Jane and Borthrop Trumble in the parlor, everybody eyeing (or squinting!) at poor Mary Garth as she comes and goes, tending to Peter Featherstone and waiting on the guests he does not want to see… no wonder she didn’t want to touch that money or the will without witnesses! I agree that she is being true to her nature, and also that we don't yet know the whole story of Featherstone's plans. Mary knows how he insulted his relatives, driving two of them away with his gold-headed cane and pulling his wig over his ears so as not to hear any of their insinuations about his legacy. We have to believe the sincerity of her assertion despite the melodrama: “I will not let the close of your life soil the beginning of mine!” And how could she face the consequences that might result if she obeyed him? Perhaps if she were a woman of the world she could have taken advantage of the situation to improve the family’s circumstances -- imagine what Jane Waule would have done! But all things considered, Mary’s reaction is understandable.
However, I have a feeling the results of not obeying him may become a torment to her.
Lydgate prefers the poor patients to the wealthy because the latter blather and pester him and distract him from his fascination with diagnosis, research and cure. Dorothea wants to help the poor more than she wants to be clever. But that doesn't mean there could never be any chemistry between them.

JO: great to have you back. yes, I feel Mary's choice may haunt her later. We'll see. tomorrow.

An interesting take on Lydgate: he's not interested in the poor's problems: they're just easier to deal with. Presumably they listen to HIM instead of visa versa, and don't contradict. We'll see, I hope, when the hospital opens.

My-daughter-the-doctor chose to work in a clinic treating the poor, rather than a more lucrative easier middle class practice, because she is concerned with the problems of the poor. Although the work is much harder, since they're always understaffed and underfunded, she really likes the patients. She says they don't come unless they're really sick: she doesn't spend half her time telling patients that there's no cure for a cold, as many Family Practice doctors do. The downside of this is that if they need a specialist, or expensive tests, there's no place she can send them that they can afford.

Her patients, mostly Hispanic, treat her like family. When she was pregnant, she was showered with beautiful hand-made gifts that her patients made for her.

I wish she were my doctor! Her motivation is like Dorothea's. Best one I ever had was female, and she up and moved!

I'm back from holiday and feeling reinvigorated just from the forest country I've been in - there was even WATER down there!

Like Jo Meander I was a bit overwhelmed by the number of posts to be read - thanks to you all for sharing your insights into GE and MM. I love reading all the conjecture taking place as first time readers of MM explore the possibilities GE places before us. She really did have the goods!

Thanks too, for the Keepsake tip - I clicked but havn't time to read it all at present - something to look forward to.

I'm very busy right now - behind with the reading as well - so am pretty much a silent partner in all this for the present. Hope that's OK.

More than okay, Gum! Welcome back - to you and to Jo!!! We knew when we undertook this project that folks would be in and out because of the size of the work. It's a joy and a comfort to know you came back to us - even as a silent partner. Don't give up, it won't take long to catch up. We're moving slowly. By the way, silent partners are also welcome to help themselves to the never empty platters!) You don't have to say a word, except that you're baaaack.

I was interested in your comments on Dr. Lydgate - and those doctors who prefer treating the poor, rather than the privileged, who, as Jo puts it "latter blather and pester him and distract him from his fascination with diagnosis, research and cure." What I've been noticing about Dr. Lydgate - he says one thing, but watch his actions! He says he prefers helping the poor, but who are his patients? And doesn't he have big bills to pay? How will he support his research? I'm still waiting to learn what Bulstrode's plan for the new hospital will be - maybe a free clinic for the poor. Then I'd believe some of these things Lydgate says...I don't think the man understands himself or his own nature, at this point. He does recognize Dorothea's qualities though...to his credit.

YEAH, GUMTREEE! We missed you, welcome back. Your trip sounds lovely. Is it desert where you live? We Yanks know so little about the world, we count on friends like you to enlighten us.

We really don't know what Lydgate is doing when he's not at the Vincy's or Bulstrode. I'm a little disappointed that Eliot gives us (so far) no feeling of how the poor, or even the working class, live in Middlemarch. D. may be a social reformer, but so far, it is all very theoretical.

But Eliot is writing what she knows. She knows her audience, too. They may prefer their poverty theoretical.

Well, now another chapter opens up. I'm eager to hear your responses to the funeral.

I didn't understand in this first chapter re: the funeral, what Fetherstone himself had to do with all the people coming to his funeral. Did he leave instructions who to ask. I get the impression that he wanted to show off his wealth even in his funeral and did invite people from all walks of life to be there. Money is the root of all evil is a saying that frequently comes to mind as the story progresses.

These relatives who after the final reading blow up and say they never would have come if they hadn't been counting on something. He left most everything to this stranger Riggs who now becomes a Featherstone. I am trying to remember the chapter when Riggs first visited him with out going back to read it. I seem to remember he is an illegitimate son.

Dorthea and Celia along with Sir James watch the proceedings from their house as he is buried in the church on Casaubon land. Eliot has shown the unity of people in Middlemarch even though they come from all walks of life, thru this event. Featherstone did not mean anything in particular to Dorthea but the funeral reflects her loneliness so the funeral is significant to her.

GE is very clever when she compares the company at the funeral to the animals on the ark....the food would last a lot longer if there were fewer on the ark. It is a fair description of the gathering before the will is read. After both readings people become rash and say greedy and jealous things showing all their flaws.

I think it is a shock of displeasure to Casaubon when Mr. Brooke reveals that Will is here and has brought the picture from Rome.Dorthea is upset by this and Mr. Brooke trys to explain the situation but it is just one more unpleasant event on this very unpleasant occasion. faith

I didn’t find much of interest in the funeral chapter. I think this is because I get annoyed when an author suddenly introduces a lot of characters the reader has never seen or heard about all at once. I spend too much time trying to figure out who all the people are and less on the meaning of the text.

On pages 308-9 of the B&N edition, Dorothea comments, “I am fond of knowing something about the people I live among.” She further comments, “I am quite obliged to Mrs. Cadwallader for coming and calling me out of the library.” It seems to me that Dorothea wouldn’t have even known about the funeral going on had Mrs. Cadwallader not alerted her. Dorothea realizes just how isolated from people and events she has become. This realization makes her sad. Thus, the day became an unpleasant memory.

Mondays are usually slow around here - can't you hear the pages turning as everyone is off in a corner reading the chapters for the coming week? I love the Book titles - Three Love Problems - You can guess whose problems they will be, can't you? First we see that Fred will have to rethink his plans as far as Mary is concerned.

Laura, of all the people introduced at the funeral - one stood out from the rest, don't you think? - the frog-faced one who arrived with Mr. Brooke and Will... (What is Casaubon's nephew doing at the funeral! I'm sure the Rev. Casaubon is wondering that same thing.) Fai calls this "Casaubon country" - don't you think folks are wondering why he isn't conducting the funeral service? Laura, the strange occurance seems to have been the appearance of the Cadwalladers on the scene, rather than the Casaubons' presence there.

Fai, when discussing a book this long, there will be many times that you are going to forget a reference and not want to spend time searching through hundreds of pages to find it. I KNOW this will help - I use it all the time -

Go to the heading to "Related Links" and you will see this entry - Search the Text!.

In the box that says "What would you like to search for?" Fill in Rigg (this is case sensitive so that if you fill in "rigg" you won't get a response)

Click "submit" - and voilà ...

Next click any of the red colored entries and you get the reference in context!

Rigg makes his appearance for the very first time - at the funeral in Chapter XXXV! Who is this guy? Must be someone quite close to Featherstone for the old man to have left him his property, you would think. A "love child?" someone asked? Featherstone had a love child? What other reason would there be to change his name to Featherstone.

“The news had spread that it was to be a "big burying; " the old gentleman had left written directions about everything and meant to have a funeral " beyond his betters." This was true; for old Featherstone had not been a Harpagon whose passions had all been devoured by the ever-lean and ever-hungry passion of saving, and who would drive a bargain with his undertaker beforehand. He loved money, but. he also loved to spend it in gratifying his peculiar tastes, and perhaps he loved it best of all as a means of making others feel his power more or less uncomfortably.”
I love the way Eliot dramatically takes old Featherstone away with the chill wind blowing and the cold hearts beating. What pray tell, is a Harpagon?

“"This funeral seems to me the most dismal thing I ever saw. It is a blot on the morning I cannot bear to think that any one should die and leave no love behind." Oh my, dear DODO is young, is she not? How sad it is, but how true the statement. Have you ever known someone to meet their demise and not even leave a ripple with their parting? I have and it’s depressing.

Don’t you just admire the way Eliot describes “family hostilities?” It’s like reading Genesis- who begat whom. Except here it’s who dislikes who- with all of the whys and wherefores explained as they follow the procession.

Re: "Have you ever known someone to meet their demise and not even leave a ripple with their parting?"

Good morning, ALF and all...

I think ripples are known to travel far and wide...and there are both good and bad ripples...

Sometimes ripples are made that no one sees or notices but IMO they have that 'ripple effect' anyway...and Featherstone's surely will and possibly have already.

Alliemae

I've been thinking about what you said.
You are so right- ripples can cause a wave of bad emotions as well as good. A ripple effect is gradual and its effect does have an influence. Even if it's a small effect it none-the-less disturbs, leaves an impact or an impression of some kind.

Featherstone sure had a good time "influencing" his family members didn't he? You know, I almost like this guy (it's a little late) but you have to admire his understanding of their natures.

It seems to me that the ripple effect is a wonderful way of explaining something about Middlemarch.The things that all the citizens of this area do seem to ripple out and effect every other person in some direct or indirect fashion. Dorthea marrys Casaubon so that leaves Celia to Sir James who otherwise would not have married her. And in these other romances too we see these ripples effecting for instance now that Fred has no inheritance he must change plans regarding Mary and even the parents, Mr. and Mrs. Vincy are not in favor of Lydgate and Rosemonde marriage just now as Fred has not got his inheritance and they really are not a wealth family even though the women and Fred too are all spendthrifts.

Under ordinary circumstances Mrs Cadwallader would not have come to the funeral. These are not the people she mixes with, being a true aristocrat. But she is cruious. And a cross section of the population that has come together would be a diversion for her. 'A collection of strange animals' as she sees them. But mainly, I'm sure, Mrs Cadwallader has come to see how Dorothea is taking to her hair shirt.

Dorothea soon regrets leaving the library. The burial is taking place beneath the windows of Lowick Manor, in the little English churchyard, beside the church where the Rev Casaubon delivers the Sunday sermons. The sermons that kept Mr Featherstone fuming, instead of allowing him to sleep through the service.

'This funeral seems to me the most dismal thing I ever saw,' says Dorothea. She doesn't even see the blossoms being scattered by the breeze. What a happy touch, considering the black mourners. But who is mourning? Featherstone, according to Dorothea's mood, left no love behind. And she has hit on an interesting truth. Each of us has a choice to make. Nobody can leave both money and love behind. It must be one or the other.

I'm with Andy on this one. Featherstone might have been a likeable man. It seems he allowed Mr Cadwallader to fish the streams on his properties. Now he is collecting an iou, by getting Rector Cadwallader to officiate. Buying himself a grand funeral seems to have gone wrong, it hasn't happened. Mostly we're treated to gossipy comments from behind the window overlooking the churchyard. Like who is the 'new face...queerer than any of them?' It's almost seems like it's meant for Ladislaw, the conversation moves so quickly, but it later turns out to be Rigg, the love child. So there we have it. Mr Featherstone did leave some love behind.

Who is Harpagon. Eliot is name dropping again. Harpagon is the ultimate miser from the Moliere play.

“What pray tell, is a Harpagon? “

As DAY TRIPPER SAID, He is the miser in Moliere’s “The Miser”. I haven’t read it (maybe it would make a good Seniornet read) – maybe someone who has can tell us what happened to Harpagon.

ALF:“Sometimes ripples are made that no one sees or notices but IMO they have that 'ripple effect anyway”.

That’s surely the case here. I can’t help thinking that there is something about the arrival of Mr Riggs that bodes ill (“by the pricking of my thumbs, something evil this way comes heh heh heh)

FAITH: yes. And ripples seem to be a good metaphor. This is a small pond, and anything in one part of the pond ripples through the pond.

DAY TRIPPER: interesting that both you and Andy are beginning to like Featherstone. Could you explain why? A web is a good image, too. Is Eliot the spider?

I laughed and laughed at the image of Featherstone unable to get to sleep. He’s probably in his coffin, chuckling.

Re: "You know, I almost like this guy [Featherstone] (it's a little late) but you have to admire his understanding of their natures."

I kind of admired him in a way, too, the way he got such enjoyment out of manipulating people by holding his estate over their heads. He got such malicious pleasure out of dangling people in front of a vision of money.

He did get his just desserts, however. His little drama didn't play out quite as he expected at the very end. You wonder why he waited quite as long as he did to try to have the 2nd will burned. Did he think he was going to recover? I don't see him chuckling in his coffin at all - just the opposite. He didn't win his game in the end.

And frog-faced Riggs who is left the bulk of the estate - what a hideously creepy guy. Ugh! Eliot gives such marvelous descriptions.

JoanK: Re "...something evil this way comes..." Did you read the book Something Wicked This Way Comes by Ray Bradbury. What a creepy book!

Joan- Casaubon’s nephew is at the funeral by the asking of DoDo’s uncle , Mr. Brooke. He lured him home to “play.”

Faith- You’re right, d. marries C, etc. causing the ripple effect of love between of Celia/Sir James, etc. A true domino effect, in essence.
Like daytripper I feel that Featherstone has become likeable because he’s human and full of tit for tat vengeance.
I love that daytripper -How could one RIP for an eternity after a funeral oration from the Rev Casaubon? Featherstone would never get to sleep. Ahahah

Thank you for the explanation of who Harpagon was. I’ve never read the Moliere play and didn’t understand the reference.

In some ways this book reminds me of a 19th century British Main Street (Sinclair Lewis.)

I think I would absolutely murder my sister if she called me "Dodo."

The suggestion that Riggs is a 'love child' seems to be just speculation on the part of some of those waiting for Featherstone to die. Fred had a fit of giggles he had to hide on hearing that rumor. On thinking about it, I had to smile myself. The man is described as looking like a frog. Since he does not resemble Mr. Featherstone, then presumably if he is his son, he likely resembles his mother. It's difficult to imagine a love tryst with a woman who looks like Mr. Rigg!

Okay, someone help me out here. I thought I had pretty well gotten into the style of Eliot's writing, and so far have had no trouble understanding what she is saying. However, at the close of the chapter on the funeral, she begins talking about parables and completely loses me. I read that section three times and still can't make any sense out of it! Interpretation, anyone?

Babi

I think I would absolutely murder my sister if she called me "Dodo."

CRUD! I just lost a whole post which I've written. It pretty much laughs at Babis comment about the strange looking inheritor.

As far as Earl Grey, I give up, all I know is that he was a leader of the House of Lords and that is the kind of tea I drink occasionally. DRATS!

Yes. F. had played the game for years of “I’m going to change my will”. It was the basis of all his power. And now at the end, he can’t make the last play. At the end, he is helpless and has no power. I did feel sorry for him.

I read a lot of Bradbury years ago, but don’t remember that one. Ask my sister (PatH). She’s the sci-fi fanatic.

ALF: I guess in a small town, a funeral would be the “happening” that you would take a guest to see? And the one you would rubberneck as the Casaubon’s were doing?

I don’t know if dodos (the funny looking birds that became extinct) were in the Middlemarch vocabulary. But still, it’s not the most poetic name in the world.

“Love child” does seem an out of place term when applied to F. But maybe he was a man soured by an early tragic romance? I hope we find out.

I have to check the parables in the chapter. Meanwhile, can anyone else help Babi?

Oh, Alf, how frustrating! That’s happened to me, So now I write my posts in my word processor first, saving as I go, and then cut and paste (Of course, I have all these post documents using up storage. You can’t win!)

Hi,

Spent so much time catching upon the 50 new messages that I will make only one short comment.

As CAS fades somewhat i.e we have found every blemish and have tired of the task, we have what appears as a new villain;Joshua Rigg who looks like a toad. Reminds me of" If it Quacks like a duck, walks like a duck it must be a duck. " (Or is it a toad?)

If GE is making innuendos about sex by using such terms as "Lowick" imagine what she is planning for Mr. Rigg.

Judy

Isn't Joshua Rigg a perfect example of that ripple effect Alliemae noted in Eliot's writing yesterday? Andy describes it as "gradual and its effect does have an influence. Even if it's a small effect it none-the-less disturbs, leaves an impact or an impression of some kind." Something has happened in Featherstone's past...and the effects of that occurance has brought this "love child" into contention for Featherstone's estate. (We better mark Babi's "IF" on this matter.)

Flora, I also see MM as "a gigantic web." This isn't the first time that you and I see things in the same way...ripples are free to flow where they may...flow outward and not return. Eliot catches things into the web and brings them back...to haunt. JoanK, I like that - Eliot as the spider. She has caught Joshua Rigg into her Middlemarch web. I don't know why he would freely want to stay in this small town where he knows no one. Featherstone has used his wealth and property to lure him here.

Andy asks about Molière's Harpagon. I think that Eliot has made an important point in introducing the contrast between old Featherstone and Molière's miser -

"Alas! my poor money! my poor money! my dearest friend, they have bereaved me of thee; and since thou art gone, I have lost my support, my consolation, and my joy. All is ended for me, and I have nothing more to do in the world! Without thee it is impossible for me to live."Molière's Harpagaon"

You get the idea - Harpagon loved his money, sat on it, wouldn't spend it for the world. And when it was stolen from him, he had no raison d'être. That wasn't the same with Featherstone. Eliot tells us he actually enjoyed spending it...

"He (Featherstone) loved money, but he also loved to spend it in gratifying his peculiar tastes, and perhaps he loved it best of all as a means of making others feel his power more or less uncomfortable."

Marni points out that "his little drama didn't play out quite as he expected at the very end." Not quite. But in both wills, Joshua Rigg made out well. Featherstone used his money to lure him back and must have had some satisfaction about that. I'm not clear about the difference between the two wills, except that Fred's 10,000 pounds went to the Alms' Houses in the second will. Were the Garths excluded from both wills?

Faith, I've been thinking of your comment - "Each of us has a choice to make. Nobody can leave both money and love behind. It must be one or the other." You can't leave BOTH? Is that the message of the second will? Featherstone left love, but the money went to the Alms' Houses???

Nobody has brought the crumpets in yet...will have to go out for coffee and a bagel. Back in ten with a few more morsels.

Babi, we'll have to watch for references to the parables Eliot speaks of when she treats "low subjects" -

"And here I am naturally led to reflect on the means of elevating a low subject. Historical parallels are remarkably efficent in this way... It seems an easier and shorter way to dignity, to observe that -- since there never was a true story which could not be told in parables whatever has been or is to be narrated by me about low people, may be ennobled by being considered a parable; so that if any bad habits and ugly consequences are brought into view, the reader may have the relief of regarding them as not more than figuratively ungenteel, and may feel himself virtually in company with persons of some style."

Let's all be on watch for Eliot's use of parables to describe "low subjects" - it all seems quite Victorian to me...
****************
Andy, I drink Earl Grey tea and sometimes wonder whence came the name. There was good reason to mention that Earl came into power at the same time old Featherstone left his property to Rigg - "Rigg-Featherstone." I have an endnote on Grey and the Reform bill, which should shake up all those land-holders in Middlemarch -

"The Whig government of Earl Grey came into power in November. 1830. Grey's leadership was responsible for introducing the first major Reform Bill (passed in 1832) which shook up the old order of representation by increasing parliamentary franchise and giving representation to forty two towns that had never before had a voice in Parliament."

The times they are a changing...

On a more personal note, can't you just put yourself into Dorothea's shoes when her uncle arrives at the funeral gathering with Will in tow, announcing to Casaubon that he is lodging at the Brookes' place? Imagine the look (or avoidance) between Cas. and Dorothea! Does he believe that this was his wife's doing? I wouldn't be able to start explaining such a thing to Bruce...and the communication between D. and her husband is already strained at this point - especially on the topic of Will Ladislaw.

I truly believe that at the end when Featherstone wanted Mary to get rid of the second will that he had changed his mind back to wanting Fred to have the money.

I don't think until the very end that Featherstone really believed he would ever die but would go on eternally changing that will and adding codicils just for the fun of watching people squirm.

Regarding Rigg (and this is where my particular 'flight of fancy' comes in) I am wondering if Rigg was just to hold the estate until Fred proves himself as a responsible person and then the estate becomes his...or, Rigg is handling the estate until some other post-mortem whim of Featherstone's comes to fruition. (I think F didn't really want the Alms House but put that in the will because he thought that if Fred kept up his irresponsible ways that's where he would end up, but when he knew he was going to die he wanted to return to the first will of giving Fred the money and Rigg holding the estate till Fred was 'worthy' of getting it.

There goes my 'Miss Marple' head again!!! I MUST buy myself some more knitting needles!!!

Alliemae

Poor Fred, right back where he started from. He had high expectations in winning Mary’s heart and hand and paying his debts with a minimal amount of effort, “purely by the favor of providence in the shape of an old gentleman's caprice.” The parents discuss their children, with all of their fine attributes as well as their short-comings and Mr. V says. “ “Who knows what babies will turn to”
Amen to that thought!! There is not a one of us here that doesn’t understand that sentiment, is there?

Rosamond gets my goat! Spoiled little rich girl that she is- expecting everyone to do her bidding, even her friend Mary to do all of her sewing as “it takes a long time”. Hello! What does SHE do all day beside spinning the “mutual” web of love, right under the protesting nose of Mr. Vincy? She is quite frank, I’ll give her that but with the clever guile of a woman who “wants what she wants, when she wants it.” And Fred she wants-- NOW! Eliot pretty well sums it up in her ending paragraph of Chapter XXXVI with this:”Lydgate relied much on the psychological difference between what for the sake of variety I will call goose and gander: especially on the innate submissiveness of the goose as beautifully corresponding to the strength of the gander.”

sorry alliemae. I missed your last post. You are so right- Imagine old Featherstone's dismay when he realized he truly was dying! His game of "revenge" with the constant altering of his will & codicils has come to an end! I wonder if he really did want Fred to receive his fortune. That never occurred to me.

I can not yet figure out who this Rigg is (other than the frog.) Maybe he too falls in love in this chapter, entitled Three Love Problems. Remember we all must kiss a lot of frogs to find our true prince don't we? ahahahah, I cracked myself up.

Here goes, Babi. I'll make an attempt to answer the challenge to make sense of that paragraph at the end of Ch 35.

This amazing statement from the author indicates just how serious she is about writing a novel that will be edifying and instructive as well as entertaining. I believe that Eliot is trying to tell us just how hard it is to do something with such a difficult subject. A 'low subject', as she puts it. 'This odd funeral', as Mrs Cadwallader describes it, and we haven't even gotten to the realy seedy part of it, the reading of the will, when she says that. Where is the solemnity, the dignity? The 'dignity' which Eliot is denying her English readers, with such a wretched display of human weakness, can, she feels, be restored if the reader will only see it as having a meaning within a proper context of associations and historical perspectives.

Hasn't she prepared the reader for a serious consideration of this deplorable display of pettiness and greed, of family quarrels and bitterness, by looking for an historical parallel in the imaginary fight for survival over the limited food supply on Noah's Ark? Going at each other's throats. What difference really between them, she asks, and the Christian Carnivora(!) at PT's funeral?

Harpagon has already been brought in as an historical allusion to serve as some kind of mirror to Featherstone? That's a stretch, it seems to me. And Joan has pointed that out. But it seems to be served up as something for the reader to chew on. Harpagon and his miserly ways was not too well liked in the French theater. Otherwise in Englannd:

'Contemporary box-office returns seem to show that he made the contemporary Parisian public as vaguely uneasy as he makes others, since L'Avare (The Miser) managed to achieve no more than twenty performances over three months. Being for some reason more highly esteemed by British pedagogy than any other comedy of Moliere's, it has assisted for generations in the formative process of young England...' D. B. Wyndham Lewis, 1959.

Introducing an illegitimate child, Joshua Riggs, what evil will follow, Eliot asks prophetically, was definitely something Middlemarchers would shake their sanctimonious heads over. The frogface would no doubt reflect for them the sin of the father. Poor child. Fred getting a laugh out of Rigg is kind of unfeeling, to say the least. Or is he laughing as one man to another, at Featherstone doing unlawfully what he couldn't manage with two wives. We're told he was left childless after two marriages. He was driven, like poor Casaubon, to replicate. Such vanity in these creepy males.

But all this happened so long ago. Before Reform. Before Lord Grey's Administration. A provincial history in which 'all are of high moral rank', would have to be a contemporary account. MIDDLEMARCH is the story of the way things were. Not the way the are now. Thanks, no doubt, to that little bit of goodness in us winning over vice which used to prevail, as Eliots puts it somewhere.

We do see the parable in all this, don't we? Eliot is trying so hard to be a responsible narrator. England loves its moralists. What an intellectual agony she put herself into, trying so hard to be fair to everyone. She comes down so hard on some, then stops short, and says something nice. She's so transparent and so obtuse. Flora

My thanks to JoanP and Flora for elucidating on Eliot's proposed 'parables'. With Joan's cue in mind, I can watch for genteel allusions to 'low subjects'.

Actually, ALF, Rosamond proposed offering Mary the work as a paid job, as she was now in need of one. About all I can say for the young woman at this point.

Isn't it wonderful how people can interpret things according to their own delusions. Lydgate hears his sweet fiance say, "I never give up anything that I choose to do.", and he is flattered! To himself he thinks, "This constancy of purpose in the right place was adorable." How can it not occur to him that he will find the dear girl just as inflexible toward him if he crosses her?

Babi

Oh, love is blind!!!

---------------------------------------------------

Alliemae: I totally agree with you re the relationship between Featherstone and Fred. I think Feath really wanted Fred to inherit. He was trying to get the pampered child to grow up and be responsible. Feath ran out of time and was totally surprised and completely desperate at his end. The wrong person inherited the estate.

Now, Fred...He might have laughed at frog-face briefly, but he wasn't laughing when the will was read. He was cocksure he was inheriting a bundle. I felt a wee bit sorry for Fred. But I'm thinking that this might be the best thing that ever happened to him. He's a bit old to change, but you never know....We'll see.

Babi, maybe Lydgate is happy with Rosamond's remark because in the throes of his passion for her he has not yet realized that someday he will be on the short end of the bargain: her stubborness will be contrary to his wishes rather than her father's.
When Eliot discusses her treatment of "low" subjects as a possible source of distress to her readers, I thought she was being ironic. Is she actually telling us that we all have "low" habits of mind, aristocrats and lower classes alike? We can either recognize ourselves in all of these characters, including the most unsavory specimens at the funeral and will-reading, or pretend it's just a little tale we can elevate with our imaginations. Not sure!
I love these characters, not because they are good or charitable, but because they entertain me! Did anyone notice our friend Mrs. Cadwallader's comment on the funeral attendees: "They are quite different from your uncle's tenants or Sir James's -- monsters --farmers without landlords -- one can't tell how to class them."
She's the one who fears the liberal politicians, and she evidently also fears an enterprising middle or lower-class farmer who doesn't have to answer to any of the gentry. They can't be classed ...my goodness, what is the world coming to? I swear I can see and hear this woman!

Alliemae, that was great sleuthing! I thnk you are on to something. Old Featherstone was weeping because Mary wouldn't let him be generous (relatively) to Fred at the last minute. And Riggs is still a mysterious figure, in spite of all the love-child stuff. Something more to develop here --- I hope it's Fred!

About question #1, again ( maybe someone said this, but I'm not sure): Dorothea will always connect the day of the funeral with her uncle's announcement to Casaubon that Will is living with him. She fears that Casaubon thinks she has been planning Will's arrival behind his back, and she's not far off. C. doesn't want to admit that he fells suspicion and jealousy, but I thhink he does.

Jo Meander...I hope it's Fred too!!

ALF!! "Three Love Problems. Remember we all must kiss a lot of frogs..."

Oh my...an even TASTIER mystery....hmmmmmm...I wonder!!!

Alliemae

In answer to question five.What effect did DOR request have on CAS? Well it made him even more jealous than before.. Dor is so full of naive beleif in what she sees as "right and good" that she beleives she can influence her husband. So he ponders useless schemes to rid himself of Will. But realizes he cannot really succeed with them.

And because of Will, DOR thinks GE thoughts i.e. a subject GE wants her readers to think about:Primogeniture and its results. On page 353 of the BN EDition we have the following;

"What a wrong, to cut off the girl from the family protection and inheritance only because she had chosen a man who was poor! Dorothea, early troubling her elders with questions about the facts around her, had wrought herself into some independent clearness as to the historical, political reasons why elder sons had superior rights and why land should be entailed:.........Was inheritance a question of liking or of responsibility?

This is also a throwback to the whole question of Featherstone and his Will. The name Will the word Will..should we look for interpretations here?

Did anyone notice that Will is taking up the profession of Writer. Perhaps in some unconcious way to prove that he can do what CAS has not succeeded in and thus win the fair maids affection? Remember it is still an unconcious motive for Will but not for GE. She knows exactly what she is doing.

Judy

ALLIEMAE: I like your knitting. It would be nice if Rigg were to hold the property for Fred, but I’m not sure I believe it. It doesn’t sound like something Featherstone would set up.

ALF: “who knows what babies will turn to” is right. But both Fred and Rosamund are spoiled, and completely irresponsible about money. So I guess, you have to look at their upbringing. I agree with BABI and JO: Lydgate is due for a surprise.

Goodness, I hope we don’t have to kiss Rigg.

DAY TRIPPER: how interesting that the French don’t like Moliere’s miser, and the English do. Is it too realistic for the French? Is miserliness common among them? Who knows?

So, Eliot defends the high moral tone of her novel. It’s a parable. And things aren’t that way now. This was a serial: do you suppose that she was getting some flack from those living the “provincial life” throughout the country at her unflattering portrayal. Or perhaps, some even more pointed flack from Coventry, the model for Middlemarch. Some of these characters must have been drawn from real life: perhaps they didn’t appreciate the honor.

MARNI and JO: we all hope that this is the shock that makes Fred grow up. Interesting that we like Fred and are rooting for him to change, but I don’t think any of us like Rosamund or expect her to change. I guess it’s because Fred has a sense of humor, and a kindness toward other people: both missing in Rosamund.

JUDY: yes, everything Dorothea does in her innocence serves to increase C’s jealousy. Hmm – Will as a writer competing with C? Interesting.

I really like Eliot's description of F's relatives as the animals in the ark. I can imagine the giraffes complaining that the elephants are taking more than their share, and who invited those nasty hippos?

And the vultures! Vultures feed off the dead. They circle around in the sky, waiting for something to die, and then feast "without ceremony or rite" as Eliot says.

Vultures have another nasty habit which E probably didn't know, but is relevant her (don't read if you're squeamish). If a vulture feels threatened by you, it's defense is to throw up on you. Since vultures eat carrion, the stuff they spew out is particularly vile. This reminds me a lot of our friends, F's relatives.

Alliemae, I agree with Joank, it would be nice if Rigg were to hold the property for Fred... but somehow, can't see it - yet. There must have been a reason take back that 10,000 from Fred in the second will. Where does Mary Garth fit into your "Flight of Fancy?" Don't you find it interesting that she was left out of both wills - altogether? Can anyone read Featherstone's mind on this?

Marni, if Featherstone really wanted to inherit, do you suppose that he considered Mary in the plan? By offering her money to burn the will, he would be involving her in a complicity of greed and she would be more apt to accept Fred's marriage proposal... I'm just thinking out loud here. There's got to be some reason her name does not appear in the will and yet she was the one Featherstone counted on to see that his wealth went to Fred. She means more to him than the wills indicate. Somehow she has to have been part of a masterplan.

Andy - "Maybe he (frog) too falls in love in this chapter..." I had a chilling thought when considering the eligible young ladies - single ladies in the cast. Oh puleese, let it now be Mary!

"Who knows what babies will turn to” - now that Fred has not turned into the family's prince, the Vincy's now reconsider what Lydgate will bring to the family's betterment. Not much, it appears - maybe it would be better to postpone, or call off the engagement...Rosamond can do better. Why is she so unconcerned about Lydgate's prospects? Is this a true love story? Aren't both of them putting aside their own careful plans for the future because of an affair of the heart? Babi, perhaps they each see the other as "adorable" and are blinded to the reality that will set in once the passion fades.

Does Rosamund believe that her father will always find a way to support her? Jo- "in the throes of his passion for her he has not yet realized that someday he will be on the short end of the bargain: her stubborness will be contrary to his wishes rather than her father" She's always been able to manipulate her father, hasn't she - her husband will be no different. But what if her husband has no $$$?

Flora, "Eliot... writing a novel that will be edifying and instructive as well as entertaining." Writing about greedy relatives at a dying man's bedside, a funeral that is all about greed and lack of love...low subjects indeed! Is it a coincidenece that these folks live in Lowick?...

"When Eliot discusses her treatment of "low" subjects as a possible source of distress to her readers, I thought she was being ironic. Is she actually telling us that we all have "low" habits of mind, aristocrats and lower classes alike?" Oh, good point, Jo! And she entertains while making us realize our own "LOWNESS!"

Judy - "a subject GE wants her readers to think about Primogeniture and its results. The name Will the word Will..should we look for interpretations here?" Judy, what IS Eliot's purpose in dwelling on primogentiure? The future of so many of the Middlemarch estates seem to rely on primogeniture...

ps. While on the subject of love and marriage, I'm off today for son's wedding at the beach on Saturday. Will look forward to some quiet time on Monday to spend with your posts. In the meantime, don't be too rough on old Casaubon - my heart aches for him!

Alliemae, I like your idea of Rigg carrying out some post-mortem whim of Featherstone’s! My initial thoughts on Rigg were that 1) I did not believe he was Featherstone’s illegitimate child and 2) that he was a man associated with Featherstone with regards to official business only. Now, what that business is or was, I don’t know, but your idea has given me a place to go after my initial conjectures.

“But mainly, I’m sure, Mrs. Cadwallader has come to see how Dorothea is taking to her hair shirt.” LOL! Great comment, Flora (day tripper; hope I am not confused)!

Here is a site that explains what the Reform Bill of 1832 was (I have not been posting links since I know there is some trick to do so on this board):

//athena.english.vt.edu/~jmooney/3044annotations2a-g/firstreformbill.html#top

I assume the characters we have read about were able to vote prior to this bill being passed. I then deduce that all the people we know from the book would feel that they lost some power in politics since more people would be allowed to vote. However, this feeling that the people had may not be supported with a real loss of power because the last essay on the site says, “Only one in seven men could vote. In addition, 35 constituencies had less than 300 electors, Liverpool had a constituency of over 11,000.” I think Middlemarch would be one of the 35 constituencies with less than 300 electors, so each person would have a lot of influence. Moreover, with only one in seven men eligible to vote, I can’t see that many less affluent people were added to the voting rolls in Middlemarch.

I think Featherstone’s will impacts the Vincy’s more than the Reform Bill.

I look forward to hearing from you all on this topic --- these are just my guesses based on a bit of research.

I have a feeling we have discussed this earlier in the discussion…I feel like a posted something similar earlier on…hmmm.

Re: "Did anyone notice that Will is taking up the profession of Writer. Perhaps in some unconcious way to prove that he can do what CAS has not succeeded in and thus win the fair maids affection?"

Good observation! I must say that I don't think of handsome Will, even unconciously, writing to prove he can do what Cas has not succeeded in etc. I see Will trying out various careers, testing the waters in a number of fields. I find him very creative and artistic in a number of different fields. It seems only natural that, after he has decided painting is not his forte, that he try writing. Will is an experimenter. I think he will try other careers also until he finds his niche.

However, Casaubon is another story. I believe that when Cas finds out Will is writing, Cas will interpret this as an attempt on Will's part to deliberately embarrass & degrade Cas in Dorothea's eyes and in the eyes of the townspeople. (My heart does not ache for Cas at all, the nasty, jealous old curmudgeon. Ugh!)

----------------------------------------------------

Re: "Why is she [Rosamond] so unconcerned about Lydgate's prospects? Is this a true love story? Aren't both of them putting aside their own careful plans for the future because of an affair of the heart?....perhaps they each see the other as "adorable" and are blinded to the reality that will set in once the passion fades. Does Rosamund believe that her father will always find a way to support her?....She's always been able to manipulate her father, hasn't she - her husband will be no different. But what if her husband has no $$$?

Rosamond does think at this point that her husband will provide a nice living for her. She doesn't give money a second thought, the spoiled child. She is used to getting everything she wants. She dove right in and arranged for the house she wanted and furnished it in the way she wanted to be accustomed. Rosamond also thinks of Lydgate's relatives. She thinks there is family wealth and a family name. I'm sure she believes that if her husband can't provide all she wishes, his family can.

I think Lydgate is in love with Rosamond. He apparently falls in love with beautiful helpless women and doesn't look for practical women who can help him reach his dreams. (He views the lovely Rosamond as somewhat helpless.)

I don't think Rosamond is in love with Lydgate at all although she is somewhat attracted to him, mainly because he is from outside of Middlemarch and has possibilities. He was educated in Paris, after all! Rosamond is a user of men, a user of people. She is a pampered brat who thinks she can bat her eyelashes and get everyone to do her wishes. She has a picture in mind of living the good life, perhaps eventually away from the small provincial town and into the whirlwind of society. She may be aware that Daddy has money troubles, but that won't stop her. She is a very conniving woman who will stop at nothing to get what she wants.

Rosamund is largely a product of her environment (very profound as who is not) - she imagines greater glory and has the will and wit to get there using her feminine wiles and beauty. Lydgate is a professional, with noble references in his background and Parisian education - for her, this can be leveraged into a good lifestyle. She is also ignorant of how her parents have struggled to survive - as is Fred.

As with many marriages, she is not looking a Lydgaate as a person, but how he is enamored of her.

I do not like this type of maneuvering female (nor does Eliot by her harsh descriptions), but I think society highly recommends this method of womanly dealing and it is honestly difficult beyond a point to dam her. Lydgate helps to get a house and house full of goods when they marry - he is also "not thinking" but we were forwarned about him by his Pariean love - he is totally unrealistic in love matters, totally delusional, in plain words.

Marni sums it up very well in her post (827). This is the first of the Three Love Problems we're promised in this instalment. I would like to be optimistic about Rosamond and Tertius. Both have set their sights very high - socially and professionally, respectively. Both are very intelligent. Why shouldn't it turn out to be a good marriage? I can't, for the life of me, understand why the author should bring such a sour note into the picture, by finding some relationship to fowl in the barnyard. What an odd light to put Lydgate in, by making him seem no brighter than a gander with his goose!!!

day tripper- "What an odd light to put Lydgate in, by making him seem no brighter than a gander with his goose!!!"

I think Eliot is showing us here that no matter what class we fit into, men and women will continue to "foul" their own existence by following their innate instincts. Some would say "men will be men."

Here's Laura's link as a clickable:

Reform Bill

Thanks, Laura, for posting that link.

OK, Joan P is off to her son's wedding and I am behind in my reading. I will catch up tomorrow during the LONG break between fourth period and fifth (there's a formal parade during the lunch break). I've been reading all the posts and am astonished at how many points you have brought out.

Maryal

JOANP: HAVE A GREAT WEDDING! WE WANT PICTURES! You say [Mary] “means more to him [Featherstone] than the wills indicate. Somehow she has to have been part of a masterplan”.

That’s interesting. I had just the opposite reaction: to Featherstone, Mary is just like a servant who exists to do his bidding. It would never occur to him to leave money to her. He can already manipulate her as much as he wants (or so he thinks) so it’s a waste of money to use money for power over her. (You notice he didn’t leave anything to the servants either, which I think is very unusual).

I hope I’m wrong and you’re right. We’ll see.

MARNI: “I believe that when Cas finds out Will is writing, Cas will interpret this as an attempt on Will's part to deliberately embarrass & degrade Cas in Dorothea's eyes and in the eyes of the townspeople.” I believe you’re right. I wonder if even if Dorothea hadn’t come along, C. would have tried to stand in the way of Will making something of himself.

I also agree about Rosamund. She just assumes that whenever she wants money, a man will supply it. This is the feminine version of Fred”s “something will always turn up”.

My mother used to say things like “a lady never thinks about money. Just be good, and the money will take care of itself”. Yeah, right!! I can’t imagine why she told me things like that: when I grew up, I realized that it was mom who managed the money in our house, and she was a very careful manager. But I’ll bet that’s what they taught Rosamund at Mrs. Lemon’s Finishing School”.

I do believe that Rosamund THINKS that she loves Lydgate. And probably does as much as she’s capable of loving. She’s not all bad – remember, she’s ashamed of her mother, but took very good care of her when Fred was sick.

DAY TRIPPER: with the goose and gander, I think Eliot is making fun of the silly assumptions Lydgate and others make about the role and nature of women. This is parallel to Mr. Brooke’s stupid assertions about Dorothea being unable to understand this and that when it’s obvious that D. is twice as smart as he is. And Lydgate is making assumptions about R’s subservience when it is obvious that she is manipulating everyone, and getting her way.

Thanks, LAURA, for posting that link. I have a feeling we’re coming to places where the politics

Re: "She [Rosamond] is also ignorant of how her parents have struggled to survive - as is Fred."

I think both Roseamond and Fred are aware that the pecuniary situation at home is less than satisfactory. The parents have been cutting back. Daddy won't pay back Fred's debts and he spouts off at his children about wasting money. The kids know not to go to Dad first if they need money. However, I think that both R. and F. are somewhat unaffected by the home situation, probably because they are spoiled. They have had the attitude that things will just turn out all right somehow.

Fred, I think, is the first to be hit in the face with reality when he discovers he is not inheriting the estate from Featherstone. It is beginning to sink into Fred's skull that he might have to actually WORK !!?? to make his way in the world. He's been very cavalier about his schooling, being educated for the church, a position he knows he will detest and has not planned to carry out. He didn't take his exams. (I can just see my father now if I had done this!!!)

Now, Fred must find a career and support himself. Also, I think he does sincerely want to pay off his debt to Mary's father. Oh, poor Fred!

---------------------------------------------------

I agree that Featherstone never had any intentions to leave Mary an inheritance. She was a servant and he didn't seem to treat her with a great deal of respect.

Marni

I think we have lived in very interesting tumultuous period of change in women's roles in America. I remember when I was a senior in high school (mid-60's) and went to see my guidance counselor for some sort of guidance in where I should go to college and what should I major in. Guidance counselors at my school then were not prepared to guide girls. My counselor pointed to a drawer and said, "Look in there." Basically, there were three career choices for young women heading to college in the materials available: librarian, teacher, nurse. Otherwise, go to secretarial school.

There have been several very good films out recently that examine the frustration and entrapment women felt in the 1950's. For example: The Hours, Far from Heaven, Mona Lisa Smile.

Young women today that I talk to about careers don't feel these limitations at all. They feel the world is their oyster. Any career is possible.

It's interesting to read Middlemarch and discuss women's roles in 19th century England and the possibilities open to them. Imagine how frustrated and stifled many women then must have felt. George Eliot certainly seems like one in a billion.

Marni

When I taught, I had some Fred's in my class (men and women). They were very frustrating!! They had been handed this education by their parents, and thought college was four years of partying. The students who were working their way and on scholarships had a completely different attitude.

But there it is, in the last paragraph of ch 36. I take it that the author paused to reflect on what she had just written about these two. And Eliot has told us that she is always looking for paralles and parables. So, when Rosamond and Lydgate, and geese and ganders, are put into association with each other like this, one has to wonder. Lydgate may know a lot about fevers and the tissues the body is made of, but human psychology doesn't seem to interest him. He makes too many enemies, Mr Vincy, I believe, says about him. His aristocratic cousins, Lydgate tells Rosamond, are bores.

Rosamond makes the most revealing statement about herself at this point. This is the circle she wishes to move in after marrying Lydgate. Then how can one explain this:

'It seemed magnificent to Rosamond to be able to speak so slightingly of a baronet's family, and she felt contentment in the prospect of being able to estimate them contemptuously on her own account.'

Now that's one clever goose. Not waddling at all, on the way to her goal.

Is Dorothea all that smart? Her sister calls her a Dodo, affectionately. It's true Celia has always looked up to her older sister , and even deferred to her judgements, but that's changing. I think it will take more than a shaking to bring Dorothea to her senses. Unless this marital fix she has gotten herself into is meant to serve that purpose. Eliot keeps pointing out Dorothea'inexperience and naivety. Does she come close to understanding her husband. What would she know without Ladislaw, that interloper? Joan says that Dorothea is twice as smart as her uncle, Mr Brooke. Who also needs Ladislaw to tell him what to think. Eliot goes to some trouble in explaining how Casaubon got to dislike his cousin, Ladislaw. Will Dorothea and her uncle also become disillusioned by this opportunist?

What does Ladislaw feel about Dorothea? He needed that artist in Rome, Naumann, to tell him how divine she seemed. Soon he is thinking that she deserves better than to be a 'martyred virgin' in the hands of his old cousin. It gives Ladislaw a purpose. He seems to find favor in her eyes. Travels of discovery in Europe are put on the back burner, while he returns to Middlemarch to pursue his destiny. Haha. Mr Brooke feels Ladislaw needs only to be put on the right track, or is it tack. Dorothea, her pity aroused and at a loss for something to do (everything's OK in Casaubon's parish of Lowick, the tennants are happy, and she doesn't like horseback riding and gardening), sets out to get Ladislaw an inheritance. Where and how will this ever end? Flora

It is a wonder with all the ill-will and jealous feelings Casaubon has regarding Will's and Dorthea's friendship that he does not have another "attack" when she asks C to change his will to include his cousin. His insecurity and jealousy do lead him to write a disparaging letter to Mr. Brooke re: Will. And he is contriving some secret hindrances for Will . He dislikes his cousin more than ever now because he thinks that D likes Will more than she likes him. Dorothea does not seem to see what a great chasm she has created between her husband and herself by this friendship with Will. Of course he is young and he shows interest in what she thinks and that gets to her. It is what she always wanted, to be admired for her brains and education..and her liberal attitudes. I am sorry for these three to be trapped in this web but it is not unusual and the same thing happens today. Faith

Re: "Dorothea does not seem to see what a great chasm she has created between her husband and herself by this friendship with Will."

But is it Dorothea who has created the chasm? She is simply friendly with Will at this point. It is Casaubon who has created the chasm by his jealous nature. He brings his problems on himself. And by his actions, I think he pushes Dorothea towards something that might not otherwise have occurred.

I don't think that Will needed his friend in Rome to tell him how delightful Mrs. Casaubon was. Will, I believe had thought so from the first time he set eyes upon her. Here's the first time they met....

"You will come to my house, I hope, and I will show you what I did in this way," he [Mr. Brook] continued, turning to young Ladislaw, who had to be recalled from his preoccupation in observing Dorothea. Ladislaw had made up his mind that she must be an unpleasant girl, since she was going to marry Casaubon, and what she said of her stupidity about pictures would have confirmed that opinion even if he had believed her. As it was, he took her words for a covert judgment, and was certain that she thought his sketch detestable. There was too much cleverness in her apology: she was laughing both at her uncle and himself. But what a voice! It was like the voice of a soul that had once lived in an AEolian harp."

Will appears, at first, to feel some contempt for the stupid Mrs. Casaubon. But, he is entranced by her voice. I mean, "the voice of a soul that had once lived in an AEolian harp"???!!! What does that tell you? I think Will is immediately entranced. By the time his friend brings him over to Dorothea in the museum in Rome, I think it's all over for Will. I think he is already in love.

Am I a romantic or what!!!

Marni

Eliot describes Dodo's inability to appreciate art in such extreme terms that she sounds a bit like her husband, like a person with little or no sensual awareness. I doubt if this makes her 'stupid' (her own term) but more 'clueless' - it makes me think she is lost even more than I realized in her mind's abstractions.

Well marni--I'm more a realist than a romantic and I think Will was very much attracted to Dorothea when he first saw her. The only reason he feels "contempt" for her lies in the fact that she has chosen so poorly in picking Casaubon.

I also don't see Will as an opportunist, daytripper. He has not settled down (as our poor Fred, now truly poor and in debt to boot has not) but he has been educating himself and now he actually wants to take the job Mr. Brooke offers him, not just to be in the vicinity of Dorothea, I think, but because in order to be "worthy," he must do something for work. We'll see if Fred's devotion to Mary leads him to take similar steps.

Faith--How wonderfully you point out to us that it is surprising that Dorothea's mentioning of putting Will in his will (in fact giving him half of what he has left to D) doesn't bring on another attack! Old Casaubon certainly does seem fragile and for years and years and years he has been hiding even from himself: "All through his life Mr. Casaubon had been trying not to admit even to himself the inward sores of self-doubt and jealousy. " I think that sentence sums up the matter--not only is Casaubon worried about D's feelings of admiration for will but he also feels that he himself is full of self-doubt. So he simmers and simmers without saying anything to anyone despite the fact that he really wants to do something to prevent Will's job at the newspaper that Mr. Brooke now owns.

I have caught up on the reading for this week!

Here's my favorite section from Chapter XXXVII where several men are discussing Ladislaw working for Mr. Brook:

"His name is Ladislaw. He is said to be of foreign extraction."
"I know the sort," said Mr. Hawley; "some emissary. He'll begin with flourishing about the Rights of Man and end with murdering a wench. That's the style."

I love the last part of Mr. Hawley's remark about how "liberals" like Shelley are likely to act. Murdering a wench indeed.

In fact Will's feelings about D. are protective. He just wants to be near her to serve her and help her: "Casaubon had done a wrong to Dorothea in marrying her. A man was bound to know himself better than that, and if he chose to grow gray crunching bones in a cavern, he had no business to be luring a girl into his companionship. "It is the most horrible of virgin-sacrifices," said Will."

I'm with Will on this one--Casaubon should have known better than to marry the spirited--and much younger--Dorothea. He doesn't know himself at all--he's been hiding from himself for too long.

There's not much hope for Casaubon now. He can't stop hiding who he is from himself and therefore cannot open up to anyone including his wife.

Maryal

I agree in thinking Will a bit manipulative. Just about everyone else in the book does what they do and says what they say completely unaware of the effect their words have on others. Will is shown in that first dinner being very careful to present exactly the effect he want on both D. and C. In the context of the other characters, this seems manipulative. And later, he manipulates them to the artist's studio. But with D. alone, he often bumbles and stumbles.

Now it looks like he is going to become politically involved. He'll need this awareness of others, if he is going to be effective.

"Eliot describes Dodo's inability to appreciate art in such extreme terms that she sounds a bit like her husband, like a person with little or no sensual awareness. I doubt if this makes her 'stupid' (her own term) but more 'clueless'"

It's always interested me -- people's response to beauty. I respond to music, but not as much to art. I respond more to natural beauty than, say, paintings. I know mathematicians who don't respond to any of the arts -- you would think they have no sense of beauty but they are extremely sensitive to the beauty of form of mathematical thought logical, rather than sensual beauty. I wonder what Eliot's own feelings were. She doesn't give us any characters who exhibit any real passion for art, except the German painter).

DAYTRIPPER said of Dorothea: "Does she come close to understanding her husband.."?

I would seem she is beginning to understand him, and finds the knowledge saddening. "She was no longer struggling against the perception of facts, but adjusting herself to their clearest perception; and now when she looked at her husband's failures, still more at his possible consciousness of failure, she seemed to be looking along the one track where duty became tenderness."

Dorothea's admiration is turning to pity, which at least serves to give her a way to live with the life she has brought upon herself. As Will observes, "..she was traveling into the remoteness of pure pity and loyalty towards her husband."

I am continually being impressed with Eliot's psychological insight. I am becoming persuaded that this woman has an absolutely brilliant mind, besides being a highly gifted writer.

More favorite lines, & in support of the above comment: "...when gratitude has become a matter of reasoning there are many ways of escaping from its bonds."

Babi

"I am becoming persuaded that this woman has an absolutely brilliant mind, besides being a highly gifted writer."

I agree! And she found a way to use it! So many women don't. She had to pay for it by being shunned by her family, but I hope she thought it was well worth it. She certainly found many other people who were able to appreciate her for who she was.

The delusions of both Rosamund and Lydgate are summed up for me in one quote toward the end of Chapter XXXVI (pg. 334 B&N edition): “Rosamund thought that no one could be more in love than she was; and Lydgate thought that after all his wild mistakes and absurd credulity, he had found perfect womanhood.” Oh, good grief! Rosamund believes herself to be in love, but we know she is not in love with the man Lydgate, but in love with what the man represents. If Lydgate thinks Rosamund is perfect, then we know he is not thinking straight either. No one is perfect and anyone who goes into a marriage thinking their spouse is perfect will be greatly disappointed very quickly.

The situation Dorothea, Will, and Casaubon have created for themselves is amusing! I don’t think Dorothea is as naive as you all do. She realizes she should not be entertaining Will while her husband is not home, but does it anyway. Will is careful to come when he expects Dorothea to be alone. No naiveté there either. Casaubon and Dorothea’s refusal to speak directly to one another leads to lots of confusion about who assumes what and what has actually occurred. Yet, “not for one moment did Mr. Casaubon suspect Dorothea of doubleness: he had no suspicions of her” (end of Chapter XXXVII). Casaubon was worried about the ideas Will would put into Dorothea’s head. Hmmm…I think he will be worried about doubleness in the future.

On a different subject, the conjecture that Lydgate and Dorothea may “get together,” we learn this in the middle of Chapter XXXVI: “and Lydgate, having heard Rosamund speak with admiration of old Mrs. Bretton’s house (situated in Lowick Gate), took notice when it fell vacant after the old lady’s death, and immediately entered into treaty for it.” Interesting! Now Dorothea and Lydgate will be in close proximity! Could this be a love problem?

Laura--Abandon all hope for Dorothea and Lydgate. He has been lassoed, tied down, domesticated and thoroughly betwitched by that really self-centered BLOND Rosamond. He thinks she is the perfect woman; she thinks he's related to people she wants to be related to. He loves the idea that life will get easier--more time for him to devote to science and medicine once they are married. She thinks it will be such fun to decorate a house. They are engaged.

I don't see how a young woman who has been spoiled rotten, who has no idea of where money comes from--or that there is such a thing as being related to powerful families without the accompanying land and money can possibly be a good wife for anyone, especially not for Lydgate who just doesn't share any of her goals.

But what Rosamond wants, Rosamond gets--and what she wants is Lydgate.

Doom doom doom. I see the clouds gathering around this couple.

I'm now up to date with the reading again and have browsed through about a thousand posts -

Some time back (post 745) Joan P asked 'Are we to classify MM as a Romance or a Reality piece'

One of the purposes of leaving the estate to Rigg is that it gives much more verisilimitude to the story - things like that happen in real life. If Featherstone had left his property to Fred MM would be more of a Romance and less of a Realist novel and I understand Eliot's purpose was to achieve Realism in the novel. The business of bringing every level of society into play at the funeral and including people unknown to the local family is another device she uses to establish a sense of reality in the novel. Funerals and wills are often full of surprises!

I couldn't agree more with Marnie's comments on Will's writing 'trying out various careers - testing the waters in a number of fields' and 'Will is an experimenter - he will try other careers until he finds his niche'

Indeed he will. Will is still a 'man in the making'. Maybe Dorothea is to be his catalyst.

No one seems to like Casuabon very much except Joan P whose 'heart aches for him' Mine does too - Cas is a disappointed man who has to come to terms with the failure of his life's work as well as his personal relationships. He resents Will, perhaps essentially because of Will's sunny disposition (is he the sun-god) Casuabon's support for Will has been given reluctantly from a sense of duty and without any generosity of heart or spirit Is this Casuabon's flaw? Certainly his jealousy eats away at him.

JoanK hit the nail on the head when she said that Featherstone regards Mary 'just like a servant who exists to do his bidding'. He sure did and revelled in upsetting her over trifles. The fact that he left nothing to the other servants either is in keeping with his character. This was not a common practice . The Victorian novels would have us believe that most decent employers left their long time servants something for their old age and maybe they did,, but most servants ended their days in penury.

'This woman has an absolutely brilliant mind besides being a gifted writer but she had to pay for it by being shunned by her family' TRUE TRUE TRUE !!! She was not only shunned by her family but by 'polite society' (whatever that is) as well and once she went to live openly with GH Lewes it was only the very brave feminist women who would risk going to visit her although the male intelligentsia flocked around her.

Glad you're back with us, GUMTREE! Now onward and upward.

Yes, a lot of men seem to have looked beyond Mary Ann Evans' "spectacular ugliness, and appreciated her for who she was, unlike the men in Middlemarch. Presumably, the women didn't dare: if they became friends with her, their own "reputation" would be ruined. Good old Victorian double standard: men could go almost anywhere, as long as they were "discrete" and came home to their families (perhaps bringing disease home with them).

Eliot has given Mary that same ability to be recognized for her worth, except by Lydgate, who has eyes only for his blond.

Re: JoanK in response to my 'fantasy' of Rigg holding the estate for Fred should he mend his ways, and...

JoanP re: "Where does Mary Garth fit into your 'Flight of Fancy'?"

Now I am wondering about Rigg and...Mary Garth!!

I have a 'wish' that Rigg will feel sorry about the 2nd will, especially as Featherstone, if he thought enough of Rigg to give him charge of his post-mortem finances, may have confided the Fred/Mary tale. Therefore, Rigg may feel rather badly for Mary.

Meanwhile, supposing Fred never does mend his ways...and Rigg falls (somehow) in love with Mary and wants to take care of her. And in that 'somehow' process, Mary learns to truly respect and care for poor Rigg. After all, she knows what it feels like to be an outcast because she wasn't anyone's idea of a good looking person either. And maybe they will begin to see only loveliness in each other.

On the other hand...I don't think Eliot is the type to write 'The Enchanted Forest' or whatever that film was with Robert Montgomery and I think Dorothy Malone!! A little too 'soppy' for George...

I'd better review these chapters so I can move on to the next...

Alliemae

Dream on, Alliemae!!!! And I thought I was a romantic!!!

Re: "....she knows what it feels like to be an outcast because she wasn't anyone's idea of a good looking person either..."

I don't think Mary is as bad off as that. I think she has feelings of self-worth and self-confidence, probably because of the wonderful parents she had.

And Mary knows that Fred loves her.

So,it is pretty well established that Dorothea and Ladislaw are one of the couples with 'love problems', even tho' neither of them consider themselves romantically involved. Dorothea is still wrapped up in her duties to her husband, and Ladislaw knows she must be admired from a respectful distance. I would conclude from all this that there must be a future for them under changed circumstances.

I am know waiting for Eliot's further unfolding re. the third couple, Fred Vincey and Mary Garth. We haven't heard from him since his plaintive, "What am I going to do now?" To which I'm sure most of us echoed, "GET A JOB FRED!" Unfortunately, Fred has been raised as a gentleman, and gentlemen did not get 'jobs'.

Babi

We'll learn something of what Fred's response is next week -- Eliot does like to leave us hanging.

The couple we've all forgotten about is Celia and Sir James. I'm not even clear whether they are married yet or not. Hopefully, they'll swim back into our ken at some point. Although, I don't see signs of trouble there -- just a boring happy marriage?

At first glance these are the possibilities of the Three Love Problems:

Dorothea & Causabon, Dorothea & Will, Lydgate & Rosamond, Fred & Mary, James & Celia.

James and Celia are not "madly in love". Perhaps that makes their courtship easier. Fred and Marys problem is not a love one but a monetary one. We are also exposed to a number of older couples and see how they navigate their relationships with varying degrees of love and accomadation(Mr and Mrs Vincy, Mr and Mrs Garth, Mr and Mrs Cadwallader etc.)

Undoubtedly the worst problem seems to be the relationship between Dorothea and her husband. Neither of these come close to true love as we define it. So , perhaps, GE meant something different. The "Love Problems" are not Couple problems but INDIVIDUAL problems. If this is what she meant then we can point to Will, Fred and Tertius as having "Love Problems". Rosamond has a manipulation issue, Dorothea has a sorrow issue and Mary has a willfully righteous issue (she won't marry Fred unless he has gainful employment).

What say you on this theory?

Judy

Rosamond: "I never give up anything that I choose to do."

Author: "...our tongues are little triggers which have usually been pulled before general intentions can be brought to bear."

Will: "You see I come of rebellious blood on both sides."

I wanted to mention something a bit early because of a show on tonight. In the very beginning of our next week's reading, Will Ladislaw is compared to Lord Byron. "Oh, he's a dangerous young sprig, that Mr. Ladislaw," said Mrs. Cadwallader, " with his opera songs and his ready tongue. A sort of Byronic hero -- an amorous conspirator, it strikes me." I think a bit earlier Will was compared to Byron's friend, Shelley, also.

Tonight on the BBC Channel at either 9:00 or 10:00 p.m., an interesting-sounding biography of Byron will be shown. It sounded very good in the newspaper blurb.

Alliemae : Your soppy film was 'The Enchanted Cottage' Robert Taylor & Dorothy Maguire. I remember it well and though it was sentimental it had a potent message at a time when so many men were returning maimed and scarred from the war.

Now about Sir James and Celia: at the end of Ch29 they are still engaged. In Ch30 part of the reason for Mr Brooke inviting Will to stay is that he would need the company 'since Celia was going to marry immediately'. Then during Featherstone's funeral in Ch 34 Celia says. "'I shall not watch anymore'...placing herself behind her HUSBANDS'S elbow so that she could slyly touch his coat with her cheek".

Judy suggests that James and Celia are not'madly in love' and JoanK predicts 'a boring happy marriage' for them. Well I don't know about Sir James but Celia is blissful and has been 'madly in love' since the start and is very well pleased in getting her man.

Thanks Gumtree...and yes, you're right...it did have a potent message. I think that's why I loved that film so. Wasn't it Monte Wooley [sp?] who played their elderly friend?

Alliemae

OOPS! ... Alliemae cross out Robert Taylor - it was Robert Young. You're right about Monty Woolley - now there was an actor. What are you doing up so late or is it early where you are?

Hi...I'm actually ET* and don't know how to change the time zone...but that was still early for me, well, just a tad!! (grinning)

I LOVED Monty Woolley!

Alliemae

NOT as in extra-terrestrial, although I have always wondered if I was part human-part vulcan...

...or is it early where you are?"

Come to think of it gumtree, I might ask you the same question...

Alliemae

marni--Thanks for alerting us to the Byron show. I tried to get it here but we had a rerun of "Mystery" (The Murder Rooms) which I had already seen. I didn't check 9:00 pm though. I would like to see that show. I spent a whole semester in college reading Byron, Shelley and Keats (a requirement for English majors at the time) and I STILL remember them pretty well.

gumtree--Welcome back! GOOD EYES!! I had assumed that Celia and Sir James were married because I did catch the earlier reference to Mr. Brooke wanting companionship because of Celia's near departure, but I missed the brief reference to her not wanting to watch the funeral proceedings any longer.

Alliemae--Is ET Eastern Time currently daylight but soon to revert to UGH standard? Are you sure you're not an extraterrestial? I'm not sure about myself sometimes.

Off today to find shoes in Hagerstown (I hope). There's a discount SAS shoe store there where I have a ten dollar coupon (never mind that the gas will cost at least that much to get there). The store in the area that used to carry SAS doesn't any more and my feet have got used to them.

Will check in tonight and see how everyone is.

Maryal

Is there something about reading Middlemarch that brings about clothes crises? JOANP's mother-of-the-bride dress and DEEMS shoes? My crisis is how to hold them. I'm going to California Friday, and I just remembered that on my last trip, my trusty suitcase that I've carried since college fell apart. It was only 55 years old. Shoddy goods. And It was easy to spot on the airport carousels -- the only brown checked suitcase around. And I'll miss the sticker from the Queen Mary.

Ah, well -- I'll have to pick up something in boring black and be one of the crowd.

Good eyes is right. Interesting how little fuss Eliot makes about weddings. I wish they were that easy in real life. We'll hear about JOANP's, I hope.

Rats! I missed the BBC Lord Byron biography. We programmed our VCR to tape it because we went out for the evening. We did something wrong and it didn't tape. Then I set it up manually to tape the 2:00 a.m. showing. My son came home at 2:30 and shut it off, thinking I had left the TV on my mistake. It sounded really good, too. Darn! I don't see it being shown again in the near future.

Did anyone see it?

JoanK, it would be a pity to discard something that has served you so well for 55 years, and still stands out so well for you on the carousel. It should be worth hanging onto for sentimental reasons. The memories! The places it's been! Couldn't you get a matching leather strap or two to keep it from falling apart? A battered suitcase is such a lovely thing. And one with a Queen Mary sticker yet. Gosh, were you one of that smart set that did the ocean crossings in great style?

Let's blame Dorothea for the clothes crisis. It seems to me that she is often described as looking as drab as a dull day at Lowick Manor. It won't be long before she and her husband will begin to look more and more alike.

Whatever does Will see in her. Ah, thanks, Marni, for reminding me that it was her voice that was so wonderful for him at first. That gives us another aspect of Dorothea's complex make-up. Our would-be Saint turns Siren.

I've been heavily influence by the provincial prejudices of the long-time Middlemarchers. This Ladislaw is a stranger and therefore suspect. Looking like a Byron or Shelley doesn't cut it with the older crowd. And aren't they all more or less happily married?

I was under the impression that JoanP is the mother of the groom. Am I mistaken? Does it seem strange that Eliot avoids wedding cermonies, having been denied one herself, at the time of writing MM?

Re: Queen mary sticker for the Suitcase. Not long ago the San Francisco Museum of Art had an ART DECO exhibit and sold piles of old/new Queen Mary stickers for suitcases. They were an exact replica of the original . So if you see them on the carousel in CA. be suspicous. Especially if carried by a young person.

Judy

Aw, Judy. We were having fun imagining a genuine, original Queen Mary sticker. Our dreams are blasted. :<(

Back to your post about the couples, I don't know if money is the answer to Fred and Mary's love problem. Fond of Fred tho' she is, I don't believe Mary can think very highly of his attitude toward life. He behaves like a petulant boy more often than not. Even if he had gotten an inheritance, I don't believe she would have married him. Having money would have only confirmed him in his useless, thoughtless way of life.

Babi

re: "Is ET Eastern Time currently daylight but soon to revert to UGH standard?"

Ayup!! and I'm feeling just as 'UGH' about it!!!!! This year was such a pleasure and now we are going to be plunked down in the middle of the dark without being able to work into it as slowly...

Alliemae

I don't see Dorothea as "drab." She wears clothes and hair styles that are very simple, perhaps somewhat severe. But, she is such a beauty and has the long swanlike neck and slim lines that so attracted our young painters in the Rome museum. It seemed to me that the author shows that her plain clothing enhances her natural beauty. This is something that captures Will.

MARNI: oh, no – how frustrating!! They WILL repeat the Byron sooner or later, but probably when they’re fund raising– necessary, but a pain to listen to. I think I mentioned that when we started to read Middlemarch, Dorothea reminded me of Lord Byron’s daughter, Lady Lovelace. She wanted to learn mathematics. Everyone sneered at her. That was NOT an appropriate subject for a young lady. She finally kind of apprenticed herself (much as D. thought she was doing when she married C. but LL had enough sense not to marry him) to Charles Babbage. When he invented the first computer, she was the one who realized the importance of the program that ran the computer, and wrote the first computer program.

Unfortunately, she was a compulsive gambler. She thought she could use her mathematics to develop a system to beat the horses, with disastrous results. She died young.

DAY TRIPPER: of course you’re right. JOANP is the mother of the groom. I was thinking of my daughter’s wedding, where I looked like a pink Popsicle. It’s all Dorothea’s fault, right. But she forgot to give us her disdain for clothes. (and her disdain for weddings). But, as MARNI points out, D. looks good in plain clothes. She probably has good bones.

Ah, the places that suitcase has been!! From the Orient Express (searched by the police in Yugoslavia) to a Bedouin camp in Israel!! How can I let it go?

No, I wasn’t one of the smart set. We went tourist class – I’ll bet the fakes are first class, but mine are genuine, JUDY

BABI: I AGREE. I have a feeling not getting the money will either make Fred or break him, depending on how he takes it. We’ll find out a little next week.

ALLIE MAE: ugh, time change. And they always do it right before Halloween, so the poor kids have to trick or treat in the dark..

I’ll be with my grands on Halloween, the first time in years. I always miss them then.

We start a new section tomorrow. Something good happens to someone who deserves it, we see a new side of Mr. Brooke, and meet a new villain? And one of my wild guesses turns out to not be quite as wild as I thought it was.

Laura and Maryal, thanks for the link to the info on Reform Bill, the best I've read so far, but I'm not able to project a direct impact on the Middlemarchers, although it may be coming. I think Featherstone's will is much more immediate and important to the characters we know. It increases our concern and interest in Fred and Mary, becuse it actually presents him with the challenge of becoming something on his own -- someone Mary can respect.
Thanks, Marni. I saw the Byron biography last night. It was well done, but he was not a nice man! He gets our sympathy because of the abuse he endured as a nine-year old at the hands of what I assume was his governess. The story he tells to his half sister (the one he loves so desperately) is appalling. It's the only really sympathetic note in the whole story. Apart from the abuse in his childhood, which I would attribute to parental inattention and neglect, he seems to have led a privileged life. He took advantage of the women in his life, even abusing the one he married. She was a mathematician, and they had a child who must be the Lady Lovelace JoanK told us about. One other noteworthy point: he apparently accepted no compensation for his poetry, in spite of the fact the publisher was doing quite well because of its popularity. He thought that taking payment for one's art was inappropriate, even crass, but his title didn't protect him from heavy financial problems. He sold an estate and entered into the loveless marriage trying to escape them, but he is plagued by them right into the grave, I think. I got sleepy and didn't see all of the demoument.

Well Jo--the politics seem to be starting, at least in a small way, with Mr. Brooke and the hiring of Will for the newspaper. Brooke has been planning to stand for Parliament and his ideas are too liberal for many in Middlemarch. (Isn't it interesting that in England candidates "stand" for office and in the U.S., they "run"?) Biting my lip not to say anything political here because I just drove to work listening to my favorite Public Radio station and can think of all sorts of political things to say.

Sorry about not dropping in last night; it took me longer than I expected to buy shoes because daughter and I took the TWO Jack Russells and all sorts of people came over to meet them both when daughter was waiting outside on a bench for me and when the situation was reversed. One little boy c. 18 months SAT on Ben, who only weighs 20 pounds. The little guy (Ben) jumped up on the todler and kissed him right on the face which knocked him backwards, although not over, and got him laughing. Meanwhile the Mom managed to get him (the boy) in control. When the dogs were very young, we started letting children pat them, sticky from ice cream or candy, so that they would not get snappish. Little dogs can be worried about children and I won't have a dog that puts anyone in danger.

But to be SAT on and still not to react defensively! I've got to hand it to Ben.

Today, during lunch, I have a plan to read the new chapters of MM, at least the first two. Joan K has raised my hopes that the something good that happens to one of the characters will happen to Dorothea. And I expect to find out more about Mary and Fred since they have to be the other couple with love problems.

Maryal

We're back...though still mentally and emotionally back at the beach in Lewes, DE. The important thing to everyone was that the rain stopped an hour or so before the wedding...gusty, tree-bending winds, rain coming down in sheets into the marshes, threatening to flood the streets, ruin shoes, dresses, hairdos...

There was a mishap before the wedding though...grandma (92) fell the day before she was to fly to Virginia to ride with us to the wedding. She was hospitalized in Pittsburgh - fell right on her face, breaking her nose in two places, several sutures, one set in her gum, another beneath her eye, and six facial fractures. Everyone is saying she will be fine, that this is better than breaking a hip or a wrist...we'll see. My brother, Andrew's favorite uncle, flew to be with her in Pittsburgh - he missed the wedding too.

The "real" photos are supposed to be on-line this week. I took a few with my camera, but most of the time it was lying on a table somewhere. I didn't take a picture of the "dress" which caused so many hours of shopping trips - which turned out not to be a dress at all, but a snazzy fall jacket and long skirt. (The skirt turned out to be nearly the same color as the bridesmaid dresses!)

Here are a few "unprofessional photos - will share a photo of "the dress" when it appears on-line next week. I feel as if you were along with me on those stressful shopping trips!
a private moment - oblivious to all

Andrew and three of his six groomsmen (my boys)

I cut off the beautiful cake!

I cannot imagine what a bride's family goes through - the mother of the groom's role is less complicated. I have only the four boys and so will never fully appreciate what you mothers of the bride experience! It must be a highly charged emotional trip for you!

No wonder Dorothea and Celia's weddings were quick and easy - Uncle Brooke could not have withstood the upheaval. Or maybe Eliot didn't go into the weddings for the reason Flora suggests - she had not experienced the stressful production herself. Out of curiosity, I googled Victorian Weddings to see what we missed in Eliot's writing -

"Because of the early hour for weddings, the reception was traditionally a breakfast. It was an English custom to have a Noon ceremony with the breakfast thirty minutes later at the bride's home. There, the couple received the guests and accepted congratulations.

...Guests were served standing, although the bridal party was served seated. If the house was large enough, or the weather nice enough, tables could be set up for the guests. There was no entertainment at the wedding, unless it was a lavish evening affair, at which time there was dancing. It was understood that the guests needed no entertainment, as they the honor came in attending the wedding itself.

The bridal couple usually left for their honeymoon after the wedding breakfast. The honeymoon originated with early man when marriages were by capture, not by choice. The man carried his bride off to a secret place where her parents or relatives couldn't find her. While the moon went through all its phases-about 30 days-they hid from searchers and drank a brew made from mead and honey. Thus, the word, honeymoon. The honeymoon is now considered a time to relax.

In the early 19th century, it was customary for the bride to take a female companion along on the honeymoon."

Ashley and Andrew had a noon wedding, immediately followed by an afternoon wedding with a band, dancing, followed by another catered evening affair at the bride's home on the beach. The last guests, I am told, left at 2am. The bride and groom left around 10 pm - so did we!

Then, on Sunday morning, we all, including the bride and groom, assembled for a post-wedding ~~breakfast~~ feast, after which the couple left for the honeymoon. (As far as I know, Katie, the bride's sister, did not accompany them.)

Good morning, Maryal...will be back with you all in a few minutes. Have been up since 5 absorbing the dazzling posts!

O looookkkeeee, it's Joan P with wedding news. So sorry to hear about grandmother falling, and on her poor face--never mind missing the wedding, the poor dear must be pretty sore and upset. Back to reading the news. Hi Joan P!!!!

Perhaps we'll learn Eliot's intent in naming this volume, as we consider the remaining chapters of "Three Love Problems." Gum, I've been thinking of your post defining Eliot's purpose - to portray REALITY, rather than ROMANCE...and perhaps that is the clue we need to consider. The changes that come about with reform will upset the status quo affecting every level of society in Middlemarch. Thanks, Gum! And thank you, Laura for bringing us the clearly written article on the Reform Act. (I've put the link in the heading here for our future reference.)

Your posts are striking, when read in one sitting. What becomes clear is the many-sidedness of Eliot's characters. You love them and you can't stand them - at the same time. They are not types, but rather individuals with likable and maddening traits under the same skin. Maybe they remind us of ourselves? Not one of us is all bad...or all good. We each have our moments!

So, let's keep in mind the book's title this week as we consider the three "problems" the author has in mind- quite specific in naming three, wasn't she?

Do you see the problems as Casaubon, Rosamond and Fred?

Do you see Will a problem for the Casaubon's, Rigg a problem for Mary and Fred, or how about Dorothea a problem for Lydgate and Rosamond?

Do you agree with the Judy theory - no love at all, no couple problems, but rather individual personal problems that affect the relationships?

This will be an interesting week, could be a turning point for many of our couples IF the problems come to a head!

ps. I thought JoanK made an interesting observation...we all agree that Eliot is manipulating us, her readers, but Joan points out that "everyone else in the book does what they do and says what they say completely unaware of the effect their words have on others"...except Will, who is seen as a manipulator. Is Will cast in the author's role? An author himself, but a manipulator like Eliot? Let's keep an eye on him too as we search out the three problems.

pps. Maryal, I'm going to try to talk to Grandma and see how she's doing this morning...they've moved her to rehab, I'm told. I suspect the damage is more psychological at this time - she really had her heart set on going to that wedding!

(I hope I've gotten the right folks...)

I am incredibly saddened to hear about your grandma's accident. What extensive injuries...and to her face, especially a broken nose. That must have been quite a fall.

And to miss the wedding. Her heart must be broken. But it seems like your family will be great support for her and for her to have reached 92, I just bet she's tough enough to take it.

Will keep your Grandma and all your family in my most positive thoughts and prayers.

Alliemae

Not only is that a stunning photograph, but it looks beautifully romantic as well. It should please Grandma, and make up somewhat for the disappointment of not being there. The poor soul! I did miss the cake...

Congrats to the Mother of the Groom! Last year I was Mother of the Bride. It was complex and exhausting. Hope Grandma will be OK. Wonder if I'll be up for travelling at 92?

Back to the Book. I want to relate to the scene of Rigg and Raffles. The Frog becomes a human being. Perhaps not yet a Prince but a flesh and blood person with a sad past and an unknown future.

Again in that scene we are witnesses to a "Love Problem" and its horrible consequences. Riggs' Mother took up and married Raffles to the detriment of herself and her son. GE points out how really terrible it can be when there is a truly bad liason and a child is involved. The consequences are passed on to the next generation and possibly even further.

I find GEs insight absolutely amazing for that period before Social Services and Psychology.

Have to go to the Doctor. More later

Judy

Congratulatiions, JoanP and family! Beautiful ladies, handsome men...where is the mother of the groom??? So sorry about Grandma. I hope she heals quickly and enjoys the pictures, at least! What a dissappointment! I just celebrated first granddaughter's wedding this summer, and I would have been sad if I had not been able to attend.

My grandson-in-law's mother has three sons, no daughters. She has a sampler on the wall promising that "Heaven has a special place for the mother of three boys." Joan, how glorious you place will be!

Maryal and JoanP re: my post 878 ( I think I've got it now...)

I'm so pleased that everything went off well , albeit poor grandmother falling the day before the wedding, forcing your brother to miss the ceremony while he tended to his mom. The pictures are lovely!

I don't know who thinks what at this point but I was beginning to feel sorry for Mr. C until he called the physician to his manor wanting to know of his own prognosis. That frightens me. Death is eminent, all of a sudden and he is not a happy camper musing over the fact that Will might attempt to take his place, in his absence.
Is the old coot going to write her out of the will? I don't think he'd do that.
"Even if I live I shall not be without uneasiness as to what he may attempt through indirect influence. This man has gained Dorothea's ear: he has fascinated her attention; he has evidently tried to impress her mind with the notion that he has claims beyond anything I have done for him. If I die -- and he is waiting here on the watch for that -- he will persuade her to marry him. That would be calamity for her and success for him. She would not think it calamity: he would make her believe anything; "

Oh dear, oh dear, the old fool is going to write her out, isn't he, if Will moves in (figuratively I mean)? I am uncertain still why old coot has this aversion to Will. Did I miss the explanation along the way. I can understnd his air in regards to D. but he didn't like him right from the get-go.

I feel so sorry for DoDo bird in this section. I do believe she is trying her utmost to be the perfect wife, tending to the old coot the best way that she knows how. How much can one person be rejected before you finally get it and say to hell with you? I'd have chocked the old geiser before now. I want to read further but I am behaving.

Middlemarch was not so different politically then as now. There were dirt dug up, wild rumors, and all kinds of things going on which might be the same we see today including the rumors and insinuations that do as much damage as fact in the media. Their media of course was mouth to mouth and the newspapers. I do not understand the political meaning of liberal whig or conservative Tory in regard to that time but am just taking the words to mean pretty much the same as they do now. Brooks and his reluctance to bring his private actions into line with his stated beliefs foreshadow his downfall since this idiosyncrasy is well known in the whole district.

Brook will be changed after he is chastised by the tenant. He thinks he is such a fine landlord but now the house looks worse since Dorthea has made her criticism. Sir James and Dorothea are trying to get Brooks to do the "right" thing making improvements to the property.

r Brook is not such a hard man that when suggestions from neighbors, friends and his niece compounded by the outburst from a tenant does not move him and he realizes that in trying to manage his own land he is messing up everything. Dorothea has brought some reality into his life. Social reform is Dorothea's true passion and she is a person who needs to be doing something.D's expressions are very different from what is expected of women which startles Will and Mr. Brooks is reduced to stammering while she expresses herself. This tendency of Dorothea is very unconventional and I think GE is writing a lot of herself into the picture of D.

As Dorothea becomes more passionate and impulsive Casaubon is more cold and meticulous. C works without being result oriented but Dorothea wants real progress made for real people and she becomes wiser about her husbands nature and their marriage. She cannot stifle her true personality and self any longer just to pamper C's feelings. She is growing up and changing.But then so is Society changing. Politics are changing. faith

I think we should start every week with another tea. Have you noticed, no one in this book ever eats anything. If we aren’t going to starve, we have to feed ourselves. What would you like, scones, crumpets, or bagels?

We’ll get to Rigg and his family a little later – some of us may not be there yet. First, we have to deal with Mr. Brooke as a politician and landlord. We see that the man who is just annoyingly vague and wooly headed as a peer, becomes lethal to the people who are in his power. Here again we have Eliot’s subtle understanding of people – the landlord is not an evil Scrooge; he is kindly but tightfisted and completely oblivious to the fact that he is abusing his tenants. He really believes he is a generous landlord, and I’m sure has told people so many times. I have met more Mr. Brookes than I wanted to!

He is accused by his enemies of keeping his rent. Does anyone know what that means?

Have you noticed how insular this “provincial” society is? “There is some foreign blood in Ladislaw”, so he is immediately suspect.

Isn’t JOANP’s family beautiful! And so happy. If my son would only find a woman to make him that happy, I would buy a thousand mother-of-the-groom dresses (sigh).

I was mother of the bride 10 years ago and still remember the confusion (the minister didn’t show up!!!) and the happiness. Now, I need Jo’s sampler for my daughter’s three sons.

I'll try to get a copy, JoanK!
I am puzzled about the state of Brooke's property, especially the condition of the tenant's homes and farms. When Dorothea decided that her life's work would be assisting the scholar Casaubonm, the idea of marrying him and leaving her uncle's home didn't phase her. She was in the process of designing houses for tenants and sharing the enthusiasm for improving their dwelling places with James Chettham. No mention was ever made about the deplorable state of her uncle's tenants' homes. AND she was disappointed when she became Mrs. Casaubon only to discover that his tenants live in comfortable quarters and had no need for her involvement to improve their circumstances. QUESTION: wasn't she anxious earlier about her uncle's tenants, the way they were forced to live??? It seems out of character that she would blithely abandon that estate for one that needed her attentions so much less??? Now she is back and making a sharp impression as she reacts to the way Brooke has been neglecting his tenant's welfare. About time!

Thanks for all the pretty comments about my boys, folks! What mother doesn't like to hear that! I took those photos when I thought of it - and did NOT take any of myself...and the dress! There were many cameras going off however...and the professional photographer's are supposed to go on line sometime in the coming week. I really want you to see the dress, the dress that is not a dress, because the jacket idea was such a simple solution to building a costume - the three pieces will see a lot of wear in the future, whereas a dress would more than likely never be worn again.

As Judy says, back to the book!

What do you think of the term, "retrogressive" for Brooke? The Trumpet writer defines the term as - " he is one who would dub himself a reformer of our constitution, while every interest for which he is immediately responsible is going to decay" Did the Trumpet get it right?

For the life of me, I can't figure out WHY the man would want to run...as a Whig. Fai, it is my understanding that the Whigs were the Liberals calling for Reform, but just what is it that Brooke wants to reform?

What's funny to me is that Will is now working for Brooke. Is he now editor of the Trumpet's competition? The Pioneer? Will writes impassioned articles calling for Reform, and the owner of the paper is dragging his heels to help his own tenants. Wants to prosecute one of them for shooting a rabbit for dinner!

Jo, I think Dorothea would have continued her work with Sir James to improve the lot of those tenants on her uncle's farm when she returned from her honeymoon - except WILL showed up - he's lodging with her uncle! I guess she could have worked with Sir James on the cottages without going to her uncle's. Why didn't she? Does Casaubon keep her on such a tight leash at Lowick?

Andy is asking why Casaubon's aversion to Will? We know he's jealous...since Rome, but don't you get the feeling there is more to the story of Will's grandmother getting written out of the will that left all of the family estate to Casaubon's grandmother's family? I think we are to hear more about that - do you?

Fai reminds us of Dorothea's pre-honeymoon passion - social reform. She and Will have this in common - although I get the feeling that for Will it's more of a job, rather than a passion. I might be wrong. I was struck by the supposedly liberal-minded Will's reaction to Dorothea's strong comments to her uncle on the need to reform his tenants' living conditions...

"Will's admiration was accompanied with a chilling sense of remoteness. A man is seldom ashamed of feeling that he cannot love a woman so well when he sees a certain greatness in her: nature having intended greatness for men."

Is Eliot going out of her way to show that for even the most enlightened men of the period, there was this attitude that women had a certain place? What are Will's true feelings for Dorothea? Does he love her as a woman, or as an ideal? If an ideal, out of his reach, the remoteness could be a good thing, no? If so, Will is not really an issue, a "love problem" for the Casaubons. I guess Casaubon doesn't see it that way, does he Andy? Will he write her out of his will? I don't think so...but I'll bet his will will be iron -clad against Will's interests. Can't wait to find out what's in that one!

We were all surprised at Featherstone's will..surely there will be surprises in Casaubon's! Judy, did you notice that Rigg's mother also has those frog-eyes? No "home-brewed" Featherstone connection yet. You have to wonder what Raffles is doing in Middlemarch, and what effect he will have on the distribution of old Featherstone's property. I'll agree, the union between his mother and step-father has had a terrible effect on the boy/man. Did you notice at one point Raffles is referred to as Rigg's "father in law"? Let's wait for the others to read that far...maybe I've misread that part.

A rainy Tuesday here...and chilly too! Not sure if we are experiencing Wilma yet. How is it where you are? A good day for staying warm and dry inside with a good book - like Middlemarch!

I must say that the Featherstone relatives do pretty well while they hang about waiting for him to die. Mary actually consults Mrs. Vincy as to what was right and proper to serve in the circumstances. Mrs V advises her 'you must do things handsomely where there's last illness and a property. God knows, I don't grudge them every ham in the house - only save the best for the funeral. Have some stuffed veal always, and a fine cheese in cut'. And Mr Trumbull having had his fill of Ham and ale comments that 'I will back this ham against any ham in the three kingdoms...there is some gratification to a gentleman in having this kind of ham set on his table'.

The state of Brooke's cottages puzzles me too. It seems to be explained by Brooke being tightfisted and he didn't take any notice of whatever Dorothea said before she was married so he wouldn't have acted on her suggestions then. Maybe now she is married she has more countenance and so may have something worthwhile to say even if she is a woman.

In contrast, Casuabon's cottages are in good order yet no one seems to think this is a good point where he is concerned. - obviously he has a good agent but in principle he has to agree to the upkeep of his tenants housing. No doubt he looked after the tenants from a sense of duty - the same way he has supported Will because he believed it was morally right to do so. Can that be bad?

JoanP, I was struck by the fact that Eliot didn’t mention the run-down quarters and environs on Brooke’s estate earlier in the story. Maybe she did and I missed it, or maybe we were to assume that Dorothea’s house designing was motivated by immediate conditions. I think her sense of duty to Casaubon and maybe some guilt feelings about him keep Dorothea on that leash.
“Is Eliot going out of her way to show that for even the most enlightened men of the period, there was this attitude that women had a certain place? What are Will's true feelings for Dorothea?”
If Eliot is grouping Will with Brooke, Lydgate and Casaubon in this respect, we now have at least FOUR men who think as society has dictated: the role of women is a limited one. Only Chettam is a tad more liberal where women are concerned --- will he play a larger part in coming chapters, I wonder? A disappointment, if we had hopes for Will! He can’t think of D. “outside the box” and right now his love for her comes with that restriction.
Brooke has such a short attention span that he has infected me with it where he is concerned. I don’t know what he thinks he’s up to in running as a liberal Whig, and I don’t know if I have the patience to go back and try to figure it out! Some bright poster will, I’m sure! It’s a miserable, cold, rainy/ snowy day in the ‘Burg. Doggie wants to sleep, sleep, sleep and her owner/ slave wants to loaf, loaf, loaf!

That's a really good point to make, Jo.

There really is no leash for Dorothea. Unless it's of her own making. And if she's not careful she will go on to make a noose for herself out of the marriage, just as her uncle warned her. She received a carte blanche from her husband when he told her 'do as you please.' That came after she realized that he did not really want any help with his own work, and she had asked, 'what am I to do?' To find comfort in the company of Will to compensate for the husbandly neglect seems so tragic.

One of the most puzzling things in the book is the relationship between Casaubon and his cousin Ladislaw. Eliot really struggled with this one. Jealousy came into it before Dorothea's arrival. There was simply dislike. The two simply couldn't get along at first, when Will was trying to work with his cousin. Casaubon got criticism he didn't appreciate. When he gets what seems to be the same thing from Dorothea, he overreacts.

The dislike becomes jealousy, but only after the author looks into her own soul, and the souls of the rest of us, with her:

'That is the way with us when we have an uneasy jealousy in our dispositions...'

This piece of analysis comes early in Ch 37. It's heavy going, but it's worth the trouble, to try to understand Casaubon. It starts with dislike for his cousin Will. Jealousy is brought in. And then we get 'antipathy for Will'. A concentrated uneasiness. And then 'Casaubon hated him'. At the sight of Ladislaw, Casaubon displays 'a bitterness in the mouth and a venom in the glance.'

And how can we not notice that Ladislaw's attentions to Dorothea are determined by Ladislaw's feelings towards his cousin. Is it love. Or a justification to get around feeling of gratitude for benefits received from Casaubon. This is complicated. Having Will and Dorothea falling in love presents a minefield of extra-marital taboos in Victorian times. I'm surprised to see Eliot attempting it. More later. I've got an appointment in 20 minutes.

There are some confusing time lines in this book. Mary Garth is at breakfast stitching a handkerchief for Rosamond and said "she cant be married without this handkerchief." in playful tone bring attention to Rosamond's folly and vanity.

Later in the next chapter with no introduction to the marriage, Dorothea goes to the Lydgate house to visit and find out her husbands condition and is greeted by Mrs. Lydgate. So Rosamond and T. are married and we didnt know it before this.

Now I wouldn't be surprised if our next marriage is going to be Fred and Mary because of the fact that Mr. Garth is planning to keep Mary home and employ Fred. This foreshadows their marriage ..think ?

I don't know yet what Fred would do as manual labor would be beneath him.

Still, he does not want to go to school and he does not want to be a clergy man even though the social standing is high even though clergy are generally poor and have little property as they are trying to improve their social standing or are second sons who didnt inherit. England had some strange laws or conventions and I know there was something about women inheriting property. I don't think they could, only the income and use of during their life time but they did never own the family property.

I am going to have to go researching I guess. Especially since C is thinking of his will and how Dorothea's inheritance will affect her and Will's relationship. Oh boy. More intrigue.faith

", when a woman married, she had no independent legal status. She had no right to any money (earned, inherited, etc.), she could not make a will or buy property, she had no claim to her children, she had to move with him wherever he went. If the husband died, he could name the mother as the guardian, but he did not have to do so.

The property rights of women during most of the nineteenth century were dependent upon their marital status. Once women married, their property rights were governed by English common law, which required that the property women took into a marriage, or acquired subsequently, be legally absorbed by their husbands. Furthermore, married women could not make wills or dispose of any property without their husbands' consent. Marital separation, whether initiated by the husband or wife, usually left the women economically destitute, as the law offered them no rights to marital property.

http://www.umd.umich.edu/casl/hum/eng/classes/434/geweb/PROPERTY.htm

Above is a link to the page where I got the two quotes above. It is a page that every one should read to understand just how bound a woman was in those days compared to today. fai

Like others, I was surprised to just learn of the poor state of Mr. Brooke’s tenants’ homes. I did not have a high opinion of Mr. Brooke before this section of the book, but now I can say with confidence that I think he is a bumbling man. I think he says what he thinks people want to hear. Based on what we know now, retrogressive is a good term for him. I don’t think he stands a chance of winning in Middlemarch. It seems as though people put up with him socially, but are quick to point out his flaws with regard to politics.

Faith: Re: "She had no right to any money (earned, inherited, etc.), ...."

Dorothea doesn't seem to be under such strict rules as this (almost but not quite.) She has inherited money from her parents - something like...what....700 or 800 pounds annually? This seems to be hers and has not converted to be her husband's. So, she will be comfortable although not wealthy if something happens.

Marni

GUM: good point. I missed the relatives eating Featherstone out of house and home. C. did have will to dinner in Rome, too, although I don’t remember any actual food being mentioned. Well, I’ll still stick to our “high tea” food.

Yes, it’s ironic. Brooke, who is kind-hearted, treats his tenants badly, but C. who is cold and indifferent, treats them well. As you say, he probably turned it over to a good agent, and doesn’t pay any attention. James apparently wasn’t paying attention, either, but when Dorothea points it out, is eager to set things right.

JO: loaf away!! I hope Will will come around, but maybe not.

DAY TRIPPER: I’m glad you did this “heavy going”. It’s very interesting.

So it seems that C.’s distrust and fear of himself is poisoning all of the relationships he has. And that poison is getting worse and worse, as he sees that he even has to distrust and fear his relationship with his wife. I assume that he had thought of women as being such inferior creatures, formed only to serve men, that he would have nothing to fear from her. Now even this lowly creature sees through him. I hope I’m wrong – I can see him getting nastier and nastier.

Oh, FAITH, now I’m worried for Dorothea. She had an independent income, so I thought she would be all right when C. died. But perhaps that income is C.’s now, and he can will it away from her, or put any condition he wants on it. MARNI: you think not?

FAITH: Could you find that reference to Mrs. Lydgate? I missed that altogether.

LAURA: I agree. Sometimes just having good intentions just isn't enough. I do wonder if this business of Brooke and his tenants didn’t occur to Eliot as she was writing, and had already published the early chapters with D. living with Mr. Brooke. Remember, she is writing this in sections, as we are reading it.

Am I a spoiler? I am so sorry. However in chapter 42 it says that Casaubon called Lydgate who was just back from his honeymoon. I am ashamed of myself that it is over to ch.43 before D goes to the Lydgate home and I shouldn't have put that in my post.

As to Dorothea's income, that belongs to her husband if he so desires to take it into his custody the way I understand it, however if he dies yes, she is entitled to her inheritance again as it is income not property. It is very difficult to understand that page I found called Property rights of women etc..

In the early chapters of this week's reading I begin to feel much more at home in Middlemarch. Being privy to the politics and economics makes a difference, especially seeing how 'real' the lovers and so-called lovers become within the real community surrounding them.

And the directness and honesty of Mrs. Cadwallader in response to her husband's "But you were pulling one way, Elinor, and we were pulling another," when she said, "Excuse me, it is you two who are on the wrong tack. You should have proved to him (Mr. Brooke) that he loses money by bad management, and then we all should have pulled together." A 'woman of substance' here...making the reading of this book so much meatier!

I think that of all the characters so far, like him or not, Mr. Brooke is the most readily recognizable due to GE's portayal of him and especially his ideosyncratic speaking patterns. When he speaks I can almost see him in my minds eye and he is always consistent. He would be easy to make a caricature of and I wonder if they did that in those newspapers which are preparing to reshape the face of Middlemarch as we know it.

It was a stroke of genius to be introduced to the Dagleys. I thought the scene was so well played out. Mr. Dagley's ale-begotten outspoken honesty and the intertwining of Mr. and Mrs. Dagley's own personal falling out as a sort of eye in this little storm.

"Dagley's homestead never looked before so dismal to Mr. Brooke as it did today, with his mind thus sore about the fault-finding of the Trumpet, echoed by Sir James."

I agree with others who have said that after that particular morning Mr. Brooke may never feel the same about his responsibilities as a landlord.

Good morning everyone. I am, yet again, behind on the reading. Sigh. My son lives in Delray Beach, Florida and I have been concerned about him. Delray Beach is between West Palm and Boca Raton and they got hit hard. I have not heard from him yet, but I'm pretty sure they have to power, thus no computer. His girlfriend has a cell phone that doesn't seem to be operating (when 9-11 was happening in NY and Washington, cell phones didn't work either). I'm concerned but trying not to go all the way to worried. At any rate, I hope later in the day to catch up on the reading.

Meanwhile, I am reading all your responses and am astonished at how many points you bring up. I've especially been interested in Mr. Brooke standing for office, his own tenants and his care for them and the contrast to Casaubon's taking care of his tenants. I think that he probably does have a manager and does what he does out of a sense of obligation or duty just as he sent Will money all those years.

Obligation and duty are cold though, aren't they? Especially when there is no feeling attached.

As for Mr. Brooke, I too find him the most easily identifiable of the characters, Alliemae, because of his speaking patterns. He tends to repeat phrases in sentences. I think he is the sort of man whose attention flits from topic to topic without ever going in very deep, sort of the way Casaubon approaches "love" and "marriage." Whatever the trend of the moment is sure to attract him.

As for why he is a Whig, I doubt that it has much to do with strong conviction.

Maryal

Gum, do you suppose that it was not unusual for the tenant farmers' cottages to be in a state of disrepair - that perhaps Casaubon's were in such good shape, because of his pride, his personality? He is the rector and cares about such things because it is his job to do so? As you say, out of a sense of duty. The landed gentry care about nothing much but holding on to what they have - even if it means scrimping on costs.

Dorothea must have been appalled when she arrived from wherever - from Switzerland and saw how they were living - and in her own way, begins to work on the housing condition with Sir James. Who knows, maybe she is using her own money to fund the project. (oops, I forgot again that she isn't real...she's Eliot's own creation. After reading Fae's post, maybe she doesn't have her "own money" anymore.)

Laura, the Trumpet got it right when calling Brooke "retrogressive" - it was ironic that the opposition to reform newspaper is able to find such a vulnerable opponent, isn't it? Ironic too that he owns the competition, the Pioneer! Caricatures were very popular at this time, how clever of you to think of it, Alliemae! But which paper would carry a caricature of Brooke - "the newspaper which prepared to reshape the face of Middlemarch was NOT the Trumpet, but rather Brooke's own Pioneer!!!

Oh and I agree with you - Mrs. Cadwallader's argument that her husband should have proved to him (Mr. Brooke) that he loses money by bad management" - would be the only argument he'd listen to.
Didn't Mr. Brooke have a manager...and then fired him? Wasn't it Caleb Garth? No wonder the place has gone to ruin. Perhaps Brooke had not been "down there" before looking into the Dagley boy's theft of one of his bunnies.

Jo - "I think her sense of duty to Casaubon and maybe some guilt feelings about him keep Dorothea on that leash." Let's dwell on the guilt feelings a bit.

Flora points out the enmity between Will and Casaubon..."The dislike becomes jealousy. Jealousy came into it before Dorothea's arrival." But Dorothea isn't aware of this, is she? She senses the jealousy and feels guilty not only because she senses Will's attention towards herself - but ALSO because she realizes how much she enjoys his attention - the way she feels when she is with him. This might be the reason she feels guilt and because she is Dorothea, she puts puts herself on that short leash so as to give her husband no more reason for his jealousy.

Flora, I would be interested in learning more about the extra-marital taboos in Victorian times - Eliot's living with a married man surely gave her first-hand experience. Geee, Dorothea simply smiles at Will and already feels guilty about that. No matter what she does, it doesn't seem to help.

JoanK, you see him "getting nastier and nastier?" Every once in a while, he seems to soften - especially now that he is getting sicker and sicker and relies on Dorothea more.

Faith, the time skips seem to be Eliot's style...and we'd better get used to it. You probably didn't miss anything - the engagment just sort of happened in the instant when Rosamond shed those tears. Lydgate then planned a long engagment, but we saw Rosamond's little brain ticking, planning a quick wedding when her father began to reconsider her intended's financial state. What Rosamond wants...next chapter, enter Mre. Lydgate! No harm done, Fai. She married the man at the snap of her fingers!

Thanks for doing the research on women and inheritance too. Marni, that would be great for Dorothea if the money she inherited from her parents was not absorbed into her husband's estate. How did she avoid this law? A pre-nup? hahaha...

Then there is the matter of Uncle Brooke's property. Do I remember correctly that his will is made out to name Dorothea's child his heir? If something happens to Casaubon, there is still Brooke's property that should be distributed to Celia and Dorothea. I'm thinking of the poor girl's future in the event Casaubon writes her off as some of you fear he might do.

Maryal, let us know if the boy is okay. I've heard that Wilma caused few injuries - we hope that is true.

Eliot is about to describe the hovel in which the Dagleys, Brooke's tenants, are trying to survive. (mid ch 39) It's all intended to show that Brooke is one of those neglectful landlords that make reform such a necessary thing. There are those who fear that with Brooke in govenment the whole country will go to ruin, just as his farms seem to have become hard scrabble operations, with their half-empty cow stalls. I believe Brooke wants to get elected to prevent change. But it's hard to tell with him. He still attaches more importance to the art on his walls than the well-being of his tenants. And the art, and all the other good things that the rich enjoy are only gotten by exploiting the underclasses. It's interesting that that modern viewpoint should find it's way into Eliot's book. It became the rallying cry for the Marxists, and other socialists a generation later, didn't it? But of greater interest for us, is the fact that it is a matter for moral indignation for someone like Dorothea. She resents the pictures hanging on the walls at Brooke's Tipton Grange, while the farmers are living in squalor. That reminds the reader of how she felt about jewelry. Same moral impulse.

All the more surprising that Eliot should first of all see the 'picturesqueness' of the Dagley hovel. An artist, without any moral compunctions would notice immediately the 'dormer-windows in the dark red roof'; 'the chimneys choked with ivy'; 'the grey worm-eaten shutters about which the jasmine-boughs grew'; and 'the mouldering garden wall with hollyhocks peeping over it'. I wonder the Dagleys didn't feel privileged to be living in such beautiful surroundings. I'm surprised Mr Brooke takes no notice of it.

As for Dorothea. She is coming dangerously close to an adulterous affair. But she's keeping her head in place, or her innocence intact. Whatever. Very disconcerting for Ladislaw, who seems offended that Dorothea should think of other things but romance with him around. He's a Lothario. without a doubt. The evidence is all there. He's not interested in Mr Brooke's affairs. He finds them boring, as it says. He demands attention for himself. Not even astute enough to know that he's hitching his wagon to a loser's fate, namely Mr Brooke. It's difficult to make out what his game is. Ladislaw's.

Re: "She is coming dangerously close to an adulterous affair."

I don't feel this way about Dorothea. I think she is quite the innocent, in fact. I think at this point she feels more that Will is a friend, not a lover. I think if she ever recognizes that her feelings for Will have become feelings of love, she may be surprised.

Will, on the other hand, is definitely a man in love. He is head over heels for Dorothea. However, he has her on a pedestal. He feels very protective of her and does not want to see her hurt. He will not hurt her and will be careful of his behavior so that she is not compromised.

DAY TRIPPER: says “It's interesting that that modern viewpoint should find it's way into Eliot's book. It became the rallying cry for the Marxists, and other socialists a generation later, didn't it?”

Remember Middlemarch was written in the 1870's. I think Marx’s “Capital” was written in the 1860's (My browser is having trouble, and won’t let me get to Google). Eliot might well have read it. In any case, the condition of English workers was terrible then, and reform was probably in the air.

“I believe Brooke wants to get elected to prevent change. But it's hard to tell with him” It’s possible. But Brooke is so oblivious about his own actions – I’m prepared to believe that he genuinely wants reform, but doesn’t see that his land needs it.

I agree with you, Marni. She is beginning to feel uneasy, and sense that something is wrong. But I don’t see her ever doing wrong deliberately.

I’m going to California Friday to see my grandchildren, and will be back on Tuesday, March 8th. I’ll take my Middlemarch (I need my Middlemarch injections – don’t know what I’ll do when the book is over) and check in when I can, but not every day. Will someone else bring the scones?

Hi Joan K,

Where are you going in CA.? I live in San Jose, about 50 miles south of San Francisco. Will be happy to serve you Tea and Crumpets if you are in this area.

As to MM. Somewhere someone mentioned that GE doesn't seem interested in Art. To me she paints with words. We could easily see this picture on canvas as her words spill before us:

"..the old house had dormer windows in the dark red roof , two of the chimneys were choked with ivy, the large porch was blocked up by bundles of sticks, and half the windows were closed with gray worm-eaten shutters about which the jasmine boughs grew in wild luxuriance; the mouldering garden wall with hollyhocks peeping over it was a perfect study of highly mingled subdued color....."

Neither GE or Dorothea see this scene as painters but rather the misery and poverty of the people , their lack of education and their hopeless futures. So they are the thinkers of their time.

Dorothea sees it in stark contrast to what Mr. Brooke sees. He mostly sees his own nose in front of him yet he may run for office and make laws regarding those that live in his borough. Dorothea has her hands tied by convention. There is no opportunity for women to run for office. It will be many years till that happens.

Brooke lacks depth yet he is a person of means and runs a newspaper. I think Will knew that he was cleverer than Brooke but is using him to vex Causabon and to be able to hang around Dorothea. Meanwhile Will is learning a trade, that of Journalist. He will have his ideas published while CAU.s work languishes in the drawer.

Personally ,I have more liking for Will than for Fred. I find Fred rather boring while Will is an interesting and artistic person. Where he will end up only GE knows.

(Always had a weakness for the Artistic type.)

Judy

JUDY: I'll be in Torrence, which is just south(?) of Los Angeles. Is that hundreds of miles from where you are? (sob).

My brain went to California without me. I meant to say I'll be back on Tuesday, NOVEMBER 8. I guess I'm not looking forward to the winter.

Whoa! You had me going there, Joan K--I was envious of your escaping the WHOLE winter here and spending it in sunny California!

Need I say that I am very happy that you will be back in November!

Whoooopeeeeee.

You had me worried there.

I don’t think Casaubon will write Dorothea out of his will. He is trying to protect her. In the middle of Chapter XLII (pg. 400 B&N edition), Casaubon thinks, “In marrying Dorothea Brooke I had to care for her wellbeing in case of my death. But wellbeing is not to be secured by ample, independent possession of property; on the contrary, occasions might arise in which such possession might expose her to the more danger.” Yes, he might not leave property to her, but perhaps income from the property, or some such arrangement. I would suspect Casaubon will modify his will to have some provision such that if Dorothea were to remarry and then die, her new husband would be entitled to nothing.

Further, didn’t Casaubon’s will say that Dorothea would inherit from him only on the condition that they have a child together? Hmmm…I can’t find the quote now…

JoanK reminded us that this book was written in serial form, that mentioned in reference to several of us being surprised that we didn’t know about the state of Mr. Brooke’s cottages prior to this section. I read an interview with author John Saul (horror) several years ago in which he spoke about the serial series he wrote, I believe it was the Blackstone Chronicles (Yes, I know, what is a Middlemarch reader doing reading John Saul? My husband wonders the same thing). John Saul talked about how it was very hard to write the serial because he couldn’t correct or revise earlier parts, so there were errors and inconsistencies present that would not have been present had he written the story as one long novel. Maybe we are starting to see some of these kinds of things in this book now. I would say at worst this could be an error of omission, if anything.

I have Mr. Brooke’s voice clearly in my head. It belongs to a cartoon character, actually several I think, but I have been having trouble remembering which ones. One says, “Suffering succotash” and stammers all the time. Is it Sylvester the cat? Anyway, that is Casaubon to me.

Laura--Checked character with daughter. She thinks it's Sylvester too (only she just said, that black cat who stutters).

Mr. Brooke's manner of repeating phrases reminds me of more than one character I've seen on various Masterpiece Theater productions. And Dickens too. There have to be several Dickens' characters who speak in that way.

I agree with both Day Tripper and Marni regarding Will and Dorothea. I do think Dorothea is innocent and is not aware of just how far she has allowed this relationship with Will to go. “She IS coming dangerously close to an adulterous affair,” but she doesn’t realize it! Yikes!

I was struck by the differences in their opinions about good and evil and their roles in life. Will said, “I don’t feel bound, as you do, to submit to what I don’t like.” The “I don’t feel bound” part is the key to me. Dorothea is very bound by her ideas and what she believes her role to be. Will is “bound” only by his desires, no shoulds involved in his decision making. Maybe, just maybe, they realized how different their life philosophies are, and will “cool it.” I am not holding my breath though.

It's definitely Sylvester the cat. "thufferin' thucotath"

You are all so funny! All right, NOW I can hear Uncle Brooke as Sylvester, Laura! Can you imagine listening to his speeches if this guy does make it to Parliament? No, his campaign speeches would be even better! It's a good thing he's not one of the Middlemarch clergyman! ZZZZZZZZZZ

Eliot does voices well, doesn't she? Yes she paints lovely visuals of difficult subjects - Flora and Judy posted some terrific examples of her rendering of the Dagley home. I'm reminded of her use of Parables to handle "low subjects" - she uses picturesque images to portray the the misery and poverty of the Dagley home, as Judy points out. But wouldn't you want to rent the place out for a week in the summer after reading that description? I see Eliot using audio in the same way she uses word pictures. Dorothea's voice was described as an Aeolian harp, remember? - Celia always speaks in that irritating staccato - can't you hear her? Rosamond...seems to express herself best through her fingertips at the piano.

I'm not holding my breath either, Laura. Will and Dorothea seem destined for one another. Maybe it's just because their situation is so impossible right now. I thought Will's desire sobered a little when Dorothea made her little speech, sounding for all the world like a saint - unattainable, wearing a halo.

Sometimes it is knowing you can't have something that makes it more desirable, though. If the obstacles are removed, you see things more clearly. Nearly an adulterous affair? Marni is reassuring when she writes that our Will "will not hurt her and will be careful of his behavior so that she is not compromised." Let's hope not! But in Casaubon's eyes, any time Will puts in an appearance, she is compromised. Poor thing.

Laura, I'm not sure a child was mentioned in Casaubon's will - thought it was Uncle Brooke's. Will do a quick search on the handy Search the Text! feature found in the heading. All I come up with is the Brooke inheritance -

"She was regarded as an heiress, for not only had the sisters seven hundred a-year each from their parents, but if Dorothea married and had a son, that son would inherit Mr Brooke's estate, presumably worth about three thousand a-year."

An interesting thought though...to whom would Casaubon leave his property if not to Dorothea? Will? hahaha Why are we talking about Casaubon's will right now...do you think the end is near? What did Dr. Lydgate tell him? Impressive sounds coming from that stethoscope of his!

It's all about property, isn't it? What a wretched business. Wanting it. Expecting it. Planning one's life around it. Worrying about disposing of it. Withholding it. Using it as a threat, or a promise.

How did Mr Brooke ever get his inheritance? What a fine thing that he never had to consider life as a clergyman. I'm put on to this thought by Joan's questions about his speech patterns. A sermon from Mr Brooke? I can't think of anything more entertaining. My heart warms to him every time he makes an appearance. He's a very kindly gentleman. Puzzling about what to do with sheep stealers. Asking for Will's ideas on the subject. And getting a yawn for his trouble. So much for this romantic. I don't trust this young Ladislaw. A life together for Dorothea and Will? Beyond a sweet honeymoon (anywhere but Rome) I can't see Ladislaw doing anything without some direction from Dorothea. Unlike Mr Casaubon, she will soon have Will around her little finger. I'm not spoiling anything, am I?

I find myself puzzling over the hints we get along the way from the author, regarding the true state of things. Such as this about Dorothea:

'Against certain facts he (Casaubon) was helpless:...against Dorothea's nature, always taking on some new shape of ardent activity, and even in submission and silence covering fervid reasons which it was an irritation to think of...' ch42

Earlier, in ch39, Dorothea has already assured Will, and she is trying to impress him, that:

'Yes; Mr Casaubon often says I am too subtle. I don't feel as if I were sublte, said Dorothea, playfully.'

This doesn't square with what she has already just told Ladislaw, that:

'Oh, my life is very simple'. Saying it with an 'exquisite smile, which irradiated her melancholy.'

'That is dreadful, said Will, impetuously.'

'No, don't think that,' said Dorothea. "I have no longings." '

And in the middle of all this, the author's cool appraisal of this tete-a-tete:

'They were looking at each other like two fond children who were talking confidentially of birds.'

Mr Casaubon has good reason to worry. To be suspicious and jealous. To look to his will, while Dorothea confides in hers.

"Laura, I'm not sure a child was mentioned in Casaubon's will - thought it was Uncle Brooke's. Will do a quick search on the handy Search the Text! feature found in the heading. All I come up with is the Brooke inheritance - "

Oh,yes! You are right. Thank you. I found our prior discussion and it was about Mr. Brooke's will. I was going to use the search the text link to look it up, but I could only think of searching on "will," which would yield thousands of responses.

Joan K,

Torrance is about 500 miles from San Jose. If you were truly staying till March we might work something out. As it is you will be spending a few precious days with your Grandchildren.

However we know you will miss the discussion since my immediate connection to your message was :March = Middlemarch. Quite a slip!

Have a wonderful trip !But take along a jacket. Southern CA is sometimes very cold.

Judy

Re: Question # 5. Why did she put her hand in his...

Dorothea is trying very hard to be a good and encouraging wife and to keep her side of the bargain. She also has a tendency to blame herself when things go wrong. Perhaps, she is still a bit in awe of Caussy's acomplishments. Her eyes are still a bit blind to GE's sense of reality. She has not read MM and heard al the bad stuff like we have.

She is stil denying to herself that she is attracted to Will. Perhaps she is playing the "lets kiss and get over it "game. Perhaps Caussy is a good lover? Ha ha.

As to Dickens. In the scene Between Raffles and Rigg I actually thought "Did GE copy that straight out of Dickens?" So perhaps there was some influence since a number of us have come up with the same thought independently.

Judy

Yikes, so much to talk about. Where are my notes!

Going back a bit, I remember that Chettam definitely was going ahead with Dorothea' scheme for the improvement of his cottages, so Dorothea did not need to worry about that. We have already seen ample evidence of how Mr. Brooke would have reacted to Dorothea's concerns about his tenant cottages. 'Now, now, my dear, don't trouble your head about it; this is not a woman's business.', or words to that effect.

I don't really expect Mr. Brooke's plans to run for Parliament go very far, tho' I could be wrong about that. The gentleman has a life time history of 'going into' a multitude of things, none of which held his interest for long. As Maryal said, he 'flits from topic to topic, never going in very deep'.

Why has Casaubon come to hate Will? It began, of course, with Will's well-intentioned comments about his work. Casaubon tends to keep people at a distance and I suspect that he does so because he knows his work is open to criticism, and his ego can't stand it. Then, unknowing, Dorothea also says something he sees as criticism, at the same time becoming friends with Will. Ah, someting else he blames on Will. Then, Will refuses to go away. By now, Casaubon definitely loathes his cousin. I have no doubt Casaubon will word his will in such a way as to put a barrier between Will and Dorothea...for her own good, of course.

LAURA, I don't see Will's statement: "I don't feel bound, as you do, to submit to what I don't like", as meaning he considers nothing but his own desires in his decisions. He simply is saying that he doesn't allow his actions to be ruled by others. He would not, for example, let Casaubon dictate where he should live and what sort of work he should do. I feel quite confident that if Dorothea asked him not to come again, he would feel himself bound by her request.

Daytripper, you seem to have a definite distrust of Will, and credit him with base motives, expecting scandal at every turn. Isn't it interesting how we can read the same words, and interpret them so differently?

Babi

JUDY: I'm sorry we aren't closer. Maybe one day. I think there are other Seniornetters in San Jose, but I can't remember who.

I will take a jacket. I'll need one on this end -- we turned the heat on yesterday.

Babi: I totally agree with you about Will. I don't see him as a sneaky conniver at all. In fact, I like him a lot. He's an intelligent, sensitive, good, strong young man finding his way, becoming very independent, perhaps a bit headstrong upon occasion, but growing up.

I'm looking forward to what develops in this relationship. It may take awhile, but I think it will be good. I'm not afraid for Dorothea in a relationship with Will at all, as long as the old coot is finally gone. I don't foresee any hankypanky in the relationship between Dorothea and Will. Dorothea is the saint and she is Will's madonna.

Marni

Wow! Such diverse opinions we have on Will. I don’t think we have differed this much since we discussed whether Dorothea should marry Casaubon! LOL

Since the section Waiting For Death, I have been waiting for Casaubon to die. Now I have made a 180 degree turn. I don’t think he is going to die, especially now that the love problem of Will and Dorothea has arisen. Casaubon provides an impediment to the relationship between Will and Dorothea and I think the story will be more interesting with Casaubon still around.

I agree with what Judy said in response to the last question and scene in this week’s reading. However, I was surprised to read that they did walk hand in hand. Maybe this is just the nature of their relationship --- disagree, spend time apart, and then come together again (well, if you can call it together). The relationship between Dorothea and Casaubon is not like any I have witnessed in real life, so I am having trouble analyzing it. They say you look at everything through your life experiences and I have none in this case.

Babi, "Isn't it interesting how we can read the same words, and interpret them so differently?" I agree! Let's celebrate the diversity, because each time we discuss the angles, I think we get closer to Eliot's thought processes as she worked with her characters. Laura too notes the diverse opinions we have on Will- and concludes Casaubon won't die. ..how could Eliot let go of this odd relationship between husband and wife? And yet Babi sees him altering his will to slight Will. If he doesn't die, then how can he get his revenge?

Inconsistancies...I'm beginning to wonder how the novel translates to film. The author gets away with it in the novel, but how about the directors and actors? Eliot seems to deliberately mislead us so we form an opinion, before surprising us with a new twist, totally unexpected.

Laura..."I was surprised to read that they did walk hand in hand. Maybe this is just the nature of their relationship --- disagree, spend time apart, and then come together again (well, if you can call it together)."

Or maybe he softened to see his young wife waiting up for him, evidently caring for him...distressed that he spent so many lonely hours in his study. He was starving for companionship...didn't believe she cared, but there she was! Ah, Judy, Judy, Judy! She was waiting for him in the dark because "Caussy was perhaps a good lover!" hahaha - Of course it was out of pity, but right now, I think he is finally able to accept the pity he was reluctant to accept before.

"Dorothea is the saint and she is Will's madonna." - Marni. I was struck by the contrast of Dorothea's words and something I remember from the prologue. Interesting that some see her as a flirt, toying with Will's obvious intentions.

Prologue: "Here and there is born a Saint Theresa, foundress of nothing, whose loving heart-beats and sobs after an unattained goodness tremble off and are dispersed among hindrances, instead of centering in some long-recognizable deed."

Dorothea: "That by desiring what is perfectly good, even when we don't quite know what it is and cannot do what we would, we are part of the divine power against evil -- widening the skirts of light and making the struggle with darkness narrower."

"I can't see Ladislaw doing anything without some direction from Dorothea." Flora, I'm beginning to see a similar relationship between Will and Dorothea - Fred and Mary, each fellow waiting for direction in deciding the future...each waiting for the impediment to a happy ending - to die! Eliot doesn't exhibit a very high opinion of her men - in my opinion!

Let's look closely at Rigg and Raffles - straight out of Dickens as Judy describes them. What is the relationship here? Why does Eliot introduce this interesting character at this point? For comic relief? He just might be playing an important role. What does Raffles want from Rigg? More than a handout, it appears.

"Wise in his daily work was he: To fruits of diligence, And not to faiths or polity, He plied his utmost sense. These perfect in their little parts, Whose work is all their prize-- Without them how could laws, or arts, Or towered cities rise?

This seems to me to be speaking of Caleb Garth...and what a great tribute.

However, from the first, when Caleb showed Susan the letter from Sir James regarding Mr. Garth taking back the position of responsibility of both the Freshitt and Tipton estates I've been waiting for the 'other shoe to drop' because I don't remember Mr. Brooke actually having agreed to this plan, and now, with these simple and excited words of Caleb's, "Tell him it doesn't signify a farthing." "And now I'm going to be rich as a Jew," I'm afraid of the worst.

Caleb is more 'faithful' than 'wise' perhaps and has gone for the 'brass ring' sometimes I think. Maybe that's why Caleb likes Fred so much yet doesn't want Mary to marry him. Caleb is a strong man and also diligent and knows he can rise above his occasional weakness. In Fred, on the other hand, Caleb doesn't see the diligence nor that wisdom that makes it possible for a person to take charge their own weaker selves.

I only hope that Caleb is not premature in his belief of this promise of business and that he is not crushed with disappointment.

Alliemae

Re: "And now I'm going to be rich as a Jew..."

I've noticed that there are a number of statements like the above in this book. I consider this an anti-semitic remark. I suppose it was the times. But, it makes me cringe.

I like that, Judy. (918) And perhaps there are readers who find themselves wishing they hadn't read some of that nasty stuff the author has to say about people.

And I'm shocked by what I'm reading here in the posts. It seems we must have a romance at any cost. We're getting, in this unusual novel, the depiction of a saint in the making. It's not pretty that marriage should be made the testing ground on the way to spiritual greatness. But that's what Eliot has chosen. And we are to decide which of the two, Edward Casaubon or Will Ladislaw represents the Devil in the works. This is a tough one, and it's not made any easier by an author constantly harping on pity. I admire Casaubon for that, he resents the intrusion of pity into his life. (if Dorothea would only realize that) In fact emotion of any kind seems to be hard on Casaubon. I'm not certain at all that extending pity, as Dorothea is so easily inclined to do, is the best policy. Sainthood is made of sterner stuff. Perhaps she's been given a wrong billing in the Prologue.

What a great Tempter that Ladislaw is. And we're applauding him! Not me. I'm shaking my head. But nodding vigorously when I read:

'She put her hand into her husband's, and they went along the broad corridor together.'

Two months! Before we get to hear what ensues.

I want to apologize sincerely for any hurt or discomfort I caused any of you by including that quotation from the book in my post of #924.

I was uncomfortable when I read it also but realized it was a part of not only that portion of the book but of those times...just as I have by turns felt sick or indignant or furious when I read the attitudes about women in those times.

Strange, but that was not even the point of my post. It was about poor Caleb and my hoping he was not believing prematurely in the positive turns of his financial fate.

Alliemae

Whether Dorothea offers pity or not, she is in a no-win situation with her husband. She cannot win no matter what she does. She will never be happy with him. He will always find something wrong with what she does.

My goodness, I certainly don't like Cas very much, do I!!! I tried for awhile - felt sorry for him for awhile. But, he has a mean jealous nature. It is very much out in the open. He is mean-spirited and small and cold.

Alliemae: I certainly was not upset with you for posting that. Those are Eliot's words. And I don't think Eliot had an inkling that she was making an anti-semitic remark. Those were the times. It still makes me cringe to read them. But we are discussing Eliot's work. There it is in writing. We have to feel free to express our thoughts in these discussions. Don't feel badly at all!

Marni

FYI,

George Eliot was not anti-semitic. In her final and culminating novel "Daniel Deronda" she chronicles the budding Zionist movement of the 19th Century and the Anti Semitic attitude of Victorian Society.

AMazon .Com says "Daniel Deronda discovers that he is Jewish...The overall impact of the book is awe. An accomplished writer defies popular criticism and explores a subject which, at the time, was politically incorrect.. The themes are Heritage, Bigotry and Marriages of Convenience..."

In MM Eliot was just baiting us with the attitude of the times. The themes of DD seem to be closely connected to the themes we are reading about in MM : Heritage, Bigotry and Marriage.

Judy

I had to grin at one remark of Mr. Garths. "What people do who go into politics I can't think: it drives me almost mad to see mismanagement over only a few hundred acres.

Some things never seem to change. Has there ever been a govenment anywhere, I wonder, that people saw as well-managed, well-run?

I don't believe Garth is going to be disappointed. He was definitely offered the agent's job with Chettam and I can't see Chettam telling him that Brooke also wanted him back, if it wasn't so. I think Garth was right when he said that 'Brooke didn't like to ask me himself, I see."

We now know a bit more about Mr. Riggs-Featherstone. I find I like his firm, quiet stand against the thoroughly unlikable Raffles. His mother is unfortunately married to the man, and here we see another instance in the unfair position of a woman. Riggs is unable to help his mother, as anything he attempts to send her is grabbed up by her husband. A married woman can hold onto nothing for herself; her husband owns it all. And this despicable man was the kind who only came home to grab everything worth having, including the food meant for his wife and her son, and departing again. I feel certain that if Raffles were out of the picture, Riggs would immediately provide everything his mother needed. Froggy appearance or no, I seen Riggs as a good, strong man.

Babi

Babi, I agree about Will, basically. I don’t think submitting to what one does not like is automatically virtuous, and I also agreed with him when they were in Rome and Dorothea was dismissive of the beauty in art because she knew of the suffering poor who had no opportunity to know it and appreciate it. Will replies by insisting there is no use in not enjoying what is beautiful just because there is unhappiness and injustice. I think D. tends to create that worthless hair shirt for herself, and I hope we will observe her realizing this later. She is her better self when she focuses upon some “long-recognizable deed,” (as JoanP quotes from the prologue), designing houses for the tenant farmers and admonishing Brooke about their living conditions.
JoanP, it seems that practically all of the men relegate the women in their lives to a supportive role, preferring that they not assert themselves or show any independent tendencies to make a change in the world. But then there are Farebrother and Caleb, and just recently, Riggs, as Babi points out, who seem quite different. Maybe Reverend Cadwallader too, but then his wife is such an overwhelming personality and her really prefers fishing to arguing with anyone about serious issues. Lazy or too light-hearted about everything, maybe?
Notice Farebrother’s feelings for Mary Garth. She may have to choose between him and Fred, eventually.

If it didn't hurt so much, that could be very funny coming from Caleb Garth. George Eliot certainly intended to say something with that outburst from the good-hearted man. Certainly it comes across as anti-Semitc to the reader, and one likes to believe that Eliot lived to regret it. It must have suited her purpose to have Garth say something so ironic about himself. But aside from his financial incompetence and irresponsibility, he does represent decency and the promise of reform and progress with his estate management capabilities. The Garth family is the standard of goodness in MM. Showing some mindless prejudice does make them seem more human. Why, at our expense, the Jew might well ask.

What made me just as uncomfortable was hearing the young Alfred Garth, whose schooling depended on his mother's savings, say about girls:

'Such a set of nincompoops...It must be very stupid to be always in a girls' school.'

This is said without a word of rebuke from anyone in that family setting. But as soon as he talks about 'duty' as being 'nasty', he gets a quick reprimand from his mother.

I think Eliot was trying to make a point with the latter instance of prejudice. With the other? Both father and son display a lot of ignorance or worse. Daniel Deronda attoned for the anti-Semitic remark, in a beautiful way. Eliot was a great student of Jewish ways. But also, between MM and DD, came Trollope's Mr Augustus Melmotte in The Way We Live Now. Now that was anti-Semitic.

How nice to read that Dorothea got an allowance of 700 a year as a wedding gift from her husband. To add to her own 700 a year. And Mrs Garth also kept everything that she earned. For her, an exercise in futility, with such a husband.

Afternoon, All. The Joans (both P and K) are out of town, and I alone am escaped to be with you! But this is no problem for all I see here is wonderful conversation, even disagreement.

Aren’t the characters in books—at least in this book—very much like some of the people we actually know? Just as we don’t all like the same people in equal degrees, so we differ as to our responses to these characters.

I figure our life experience must be in part responsible. I have known some cold fish like Casaubon and thus he makes me shiver. But daytripper can feel some admiration for Casaubon and marni at least tried for a while to get to know Casaubon before dismissing him. I never gave him that chance. Thinking of him I only see that black clothing and the somber woods through which he walks in chapter 42 just before he keeps his arm stiff when Dorothea takes it. When I think of him, I think of an ice cube melting in my hand.

Furthermore, I feel sorry for Dorothea. She was very young when she chose Casaubon over Sir James—she seems so much older to me now, though surely not much more than a year or two has passed. Young people make lots of mistakes in judgment. Cas. represented all Dorothea valued at the time. Now she understands that she cannot get close to him, even to assist him in his work, that he doesn’t really care what she thinks and that when she is around him she has to be someone she is not—a restrained and careful, not to mention quiet, woman. Only when she visits her uncle Brooke does she become her lively self again. That's sad.

As for the aniti-semitism here, the times were certainly full of such expressions. Don’t they sound strange to us now? Yet I can remember my own grandmother using the expression “rich as a Jew.” Fortunately I never picked up on that one. I considered it strange and old-fashioned sounding without really knowing what it meant.

The whole issue of whether or not Brooke intended Sir James to hire Garth to manage his estate as well as the others is certainly interesting, Alliemae. We don’t know yet whether or not Brooke asked Sir James to speak for him, do we? Good point.

Goodness, Babi thinks that old Froggy Featherstone might have some admirable qualities! Now that hadn’t occurred to me, but we don’t have much information about him yet. RAFFLES, on the other hand, is clearly on loan from Dickens. If someone were to sit me down to a Victorian novel test right now with names to identify at the top—the question would be something along the lines of: “Identify the following characters by naming the novel they come from as well as the author of that novel,” I know that I would misidentify Raffles. I’m pretty sure that I would put him in Great Expectations!

Raffles, notice, has taken a letter from Froggy’s desk to bolster up his flask. He doesn’t know yet, but we readers do, that it is one signed by a certain Bulstrode (I cannot remember that man’s first name, will have to look it up). Surely this letter will figure in the plot. And old Raffles is riding in the new railroad. Choo choo.

Jo--You think that Farebrother might yet propose to Mary Garth? I thought it was pretty clear that he couldn’t get married because of a lack of income—he has that mother and those aunts to care for and isn’t very well paid. And we are in a time period when responsible men took it very seriously that they were “established” before taking a wife. I do think he admires Mary, though. But I’m pretty sure that her heart belongs to Fred, no matter how hard she is on him.

Can anyone remember who the Dickens character was whose name was so very like “Raffles”? I think it’s going to make me crazy.

Maryal

Maryal: Re: "When I think of him [Cas], I think of an ice cube melting in my hand." I don't think Cas is melting at all!! hahaha

-------------------------------------------

Re: The expression “rich as a Jew” being old-fashioned....Perhaps it was in literature. However, it is alive and present in 2005, unfortunately. Some of my in-laws use that particular expression and others like it, to my horror. I have gotten into arguments with them. I am not Jewish, but statements like that make me really angry and I think it is important to speak up about it.

----------------------------------------------

Re: The new train....I shared info with the Latin 101 class about a TV program recently on. It was about a man called Heron of Alexandria, or "The Machine Man." He lived approx at the time of Trajan when Alexandria was part of the Roman empire. Heron was a scientist who invented the steam engine - nearly 2,000 years before it became the catalyst that started the industrial revolution! Heron used steam for toys, mainly.

The TV program posed the question - What if the Roman Empire had taken this invention seriously and put it to other, more purposeful, uses? What would the world be like today?

Heron also developed various instruments for measuring distances and roads, and is sometimes credited with the formula that defines the area of a triangle from its sides. Other remarkable inventions of his were a fire extinguisher and a machine from which you could purchase various products. Heron also invented war machines and weapons for the Roman army and the first type of analogue computer programming.

For more info about Heron, the Machine Man:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_of_Alexandria

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/HeronAlexandria.htm

Marni

Marni...I see Causabon as an ice cube,unlike others, that DOES NOT melt in my hand or anywhere else for that matter.

As to Raffles I too saw him in Great Expectations wreaking havoc on left and right. I have a bad feeling about this man. Other people in the book may have weaknesses of character but he has little or no concious. He is the first criminal type that GE has introduced. Where is she going with this? If there is a criminal there will undoubtedly be a crime.

I must say that I thouroghly enjoy Mrs. Cadwallder and her insightful remarks. She says very sensible things and is the only female,so far, that has discussed people and politics with other bright members of the community. Those who see the absurdities and deeper motives of Brooke, Causabon and Will. I especially liked "Oh, he's a dangerous young sprig, that Mr. Ladislaw...with his opera songs and his ready tongue. A sort of Byronic hero-an amorous conspirator......"

Oh, indeed he is! But he too will need to eventually grow up a bit more to reach his goals.

On to the next 4 chapters.

Judy

Well I am now officially a soccer grandmom. My kids grew up before the soccer boom, so I was never a soccer mom.

I love my grandkids but I am getting Middlemarch-withdrawal symptoms. Now that the crowd to go to bed, I jumped in here to read your comments. What a good discussion.

Way back, in a moment of fantasy, I tried to fix Mr. Farebrother up with Mary. I was amused to see that Eliot gave Farebrother the same idea. But it's obviously not going to happen.

Yes, that letter stuffed into Riggs' bottle is sitting there like a time bomb. We don't know what it is, only that it has evil possibilities for the future.

I found the scene where D. and C. walk off hand in hand touching. The earlier scene was hard to read. But in character for both of them. I would have called D.'s thoughts selfish if it had been a loving relationship, and she failed to realize that sometimes people need to be left alone. But here, she realizes that there is nothing she can share with him. not work, not joy, not sorrow.

From Ella's post in another discussion:

"BABI just emailed me with the sad news that she just heard this morning that her brother had died and she will not be on SN for awhile. I'm so sorry - a big Hug to you, Babi, from me and all of us!"

I was sorry to read Ella's post, and wish to extend my sympathy to Babi and her family.

Another on the road, suffering Middlemarch withdrawal symptoms...though I have my book with me, and alternate reading with knitting. No, I don't drive. Husband is of the old school - the man drives. I have to drive when he's in the car anyway.

So very sorry to read of Babi's brother's passing. Thoughts and prayers are with you, Babi, dear.

Just a few comments...probably won't get on this coming week - we are staying in a not-so-hot place in Pensacola with Bruce's softball team. There weren't any available places for the whole team to stay together. Bruce promises that if the motel is as bad as I read on the internet from guest comments, that we can move "up" and - away from the team. Internet access may be tough this coming week - I'll really look forward to hearing your comments on the next chapter...did you notice the title?

Just a few quick observations on the Three Love Problems - (not sure we identified them yet. Is Eliot being purposely vague about her titles?

I thought the "rich as a J" comment was strange coming out of the mouth of one of the most upright men in the novel. Money was never important to Caleb Garth...but rather the pride he took in honest work - even if he was not fully compensated for his efforts. Suddenly we find him gleefully making the offensive comment about all the money he will make. What is the message? That money corrupts?

My first reaction was that the remark was not so much "anti-semitic" as it was a reflection of a stereotype. How is it "anti" if it is a statement perceived as fact. Have we met any Jewish people in Middlemarch? Are any of them among the monied, or landed gentry? Why would Eliot have Caleb make this remark?

Do you find it interesting that Eliot had one of the characters, Tom, I think, use this exact same expression in "Mill on the Floss?"

After thinking about this for some time in the car yesterday...the anti-semitic vs. stereotypical, I concluded, that IF the comment indicates that money corrupts, then one step further, the Jews with money must also be corrupt. Is that what you find offensive, or is it simply the stereotype. (Which really didn't bother me at all when I first read it.)

At this point, I don't see Casaubon as the Devil...and certainly not Will. If anything, I see Will as a restrained " tempter, a subtle devil maybe. But he really doesn't try to tempt Dorothea off the pedestal, does he? Casaubon is not so much a devil as he is a poor pitiful man.

It takes everything in her for Dorothea to turn her anger and bruised feelings back into pity - the man is dying after all...and wait for him to come up to bed.

Jo, I don't think that people like Dorothea will ever realize that her hairshirt is pointless. It is her nature. It would take a lot to make her change. I'm not holding my breath. She seems to have endless patience.

I agree that Eliot's men relegate the women to supportive roles, but they seem to become indispensible to the men while playing the supporting cast, don't they? The women seem to be the real stars of the piece.

Mary and Farebrother...I did notice one thing about Mary's attitude towards him - she respects him more than she does anyone in her world. (something she does not feel for Fred, despite her tender feelings for him.) And Farebrtoher feels the same respect for her. How important is this mutual respect to Eliot. Perhaps that will determine the fate of a Farebrother/Mary Garth match.

Ooops...first baby is up from his nap. Off to do some grandmothering.

Have fun this week, Joan...and the rest of our Middlemarch family.

Hello to our two on-the-road discussion leaders!

Just can't take a break from the discussion and the novel??

Joan K--A soccer grandmom sounds a lot better to me than being a soccer mom. You can get someone else to do the driving! Soccer's a huge sport now, isn't it, among the young at least. My kids missed it too and both would have liked it.

Joan P--I do hope you can upsize your accommodations if the motel is a relative of the Bates. Team solidarity is one thing, but icky room is quite another.

I don't know if everyone has noticed the general title of Volume 5, but I think it's perfect for Halloween--The Dead Hand.

Today when I went to the Y to swim, the young man behind the front desk was clothed entirely in a black cape, complete with huge hood. From the side, there was none of him showing at all. He had used some kind of make-up to color his hands and his face white. I said, "Mr. Death, I presume?" And he responded "Indeed." It was the best costume I have seen in a long time. I wanted to tell him about where the reading group was in Middlemarch but decided it was best not to hold up the line!

So, I thought about the title, and I wondered whose "Dead hand" we might be referring to? Since we have already learned what became of Featherstone's land and money, I can only conclude that YIPPEE, this time it Must be Casaubon especially since he seemed to be thinking about Dorothea and Will and how they might marry if he were to die. He can't stand the thought of that since he considers Will an opportunist. He can't allow himself to think anything negative about Dorothea, but he concludes that she will be persuaded by Will (women are so spineless and weak-willed).

So, I'm betting the Dead Hand this time will be his.

But I've only read the first two of the next four (five?) chapters, so I will have to wait to see if I'm right. I'm currently reading the chapter about all the other doctors in Middlemarch and what the people think of Lydgate, that strange man who won't sell them their medicines. It's a long chapter. It's odd to me to see all these doctors referred to as Mr. X and Mr. Y. I wonder when Dr. became the appropriate form of address for a physician.

Babi--I was sorry to read of your brother's death. I am so sorry. It is really hard to lose a sibling.

Maryal