Middlemarch ~ George Eliot ~ Part II ~ 9/05 Export

Cover design of Boston edition of Middlemarch, adapted from the original serial publication

"George Eliot's ambition - to create a world and portray a whole community--tradespeople, middle classes, country gentry--in the rising fictional provincial town of Middlemarch, circa 1830. Vast and crowded, rich in narrative irony and suspense, "Middlemarch" is richer still in character and in its sense of how individual destinies are shaped by and shape the community." Powell's Book Review

Book Eight ~ Sunset and Sunrise

For Your Consideration

Dec. 26 - Dec.31 ~ Finale!

Finale

1. Is it possible that Eliot has written a happy ending in Book 8 to satisfy the expectations of her readers and then used the Finale to express her own views on the limitations placed on an individual's ability to order his own future?

2. "Every limit is a beginning as well as an ending." What does Eliot mean by this comment? Is the ending in Book 8 necessarily the ending of her characters' life story. What do you see in the future for the characters she doesn't follow - Farebrother, the Bulstrodes??

3. Does Eliot answer our question? Does she believe people capable of change? Which characters do you see have changed, which not? What made the difference?

4. Was it significant that both Fred and Rosamond's marital futures depended on extraordinary acts of kindness by Dorothea and Farebrother? Did Mary choose Fred over Farebrother for reasons similar to those Dorothea chose Will over her own dreams?

5. Did you find any real surprises in the Finale or did everyone continue on the course they had chosen at the end of the novel? If Dorothea and Lydgate are the central characters of the novel, what conclusions does Eliot draw on their ability, on the ability of the individual to choose his own destiny?

Related Links: Middlemarch - on-line text - complete novel // Search the Text!// Biography of Mary Anne Evans,(George Eliot)// a REALLY Comprehensive Biography of Marian Evans //19th c. Coventry/Middlemarch - streets & buildings // Walking tours of Coventry and Warwickshire// Spon End, Coventry // 19th century Politics - Robert Peel // First Reform Bill - 1832 // Victorian England // Victorian Times // Posting urls from other websites//

Middlemarch Discussion, Part I: Books 1-5
Discussion Leaders: JoanK ~ JoanP ~ Maryal(Deems)

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I am still in the middle of this week's reading, so I don't know what the meaning of The Dead Hand is yet. My guess is not that someone will die, but that we will see how the characters act with the hand of death lurking over them.

Hello everyone. I notice your enthusiasm for the book, "Middlemarch", and that's wonderful. I am beginning my participation in the middle, yet, I am looking forward to just sitting down this Sunday and reading and then commenting. I work full time and am taking 3 university courses, so life tends to be busy (plus I am in Toastmasters). I use to be in an English Literature Major. I changed my Major to B.Ed. and I do miss the literature! So, here I am, and looking forward to this exchange. Until Sunday...

Welcome, Ann Freem!!. Jump in whenever you want; we are glad to have you with us.

And welcome everyone else to our new home. We have written so much and shared so many thoughts that we now have a brand new page. I for one am glad to be rid of the Book Club for September part of the heading because I lose my place in time easily and I was beginning to wonder why Halloween was coming when we were still in September!

I too am in the midst of reading our new section and thus won't make any comments yet.

marni--Now that you mention it, I do remember the monkey's paw as well as the story about the man who had a dead man's hand grafted on when he lost his own. Didn't the hand belong to a murderer or something? Who on earth wrote that story?

Those of you who like Halloween parties should check in over in the book nook. There's a party today and you can appear in costume, give clues about what you are wearing, and have people guess who you are.

Sad news--I did not get a call from the President to serve on the Supreme Court. I had my fingers crossed since I am a woman, around Harriet Miers age, and have also never been a judge. But alas, not this time around.

Maryal

You can find Book Nook (and the Halloween Party) Here

to this new discussion of our novel. My subscription still takes me to the old discussion, and I just remembered to subscribe to this one.

Oooops, should have warned everyone earlier.

Sorry.

My bad.

NAN: WELCOME, WELCOME!! Jump right in with both feet! Don't bother to try to read all the old posts -- it will just slow you down. Doesn't matter if you repeat what has been said -- most things bear repeating.

We talk 24/7 so post whenever you have time. Tell me if you prefer crumpets or scones with your tea -- we provide our own refreshments.

I'm behind in my reading too. But I was very interested in the section that tells the villagers' response to Lydgate as a doctor. I ran some of the comments by my daughter-the-doctor. She says they are right on the nose. When her patients get better, they tell her that it is all due to the pink stuff their neighbor gave them. "But did you take the medicine that I gave you?" "Oh, yes, but this pink stuff is wonderful" GRRRR.

Lydgate does seem to have inadvertantly alienated almost everyone, except Rosemund. R. seems to think she can have her cake and eat it too -- she misses her circle of admiring men, and wants to continue it. We'll see how that goes.

Hi there, Joan K in California. I like the section on doctors in Middlemarch too. Good to hear that your daughter the doctor agrees that patients haven't changed much.

And heaven only knows how many people ask for the new miracle medicine that is advertised for acid reflux disease during the evening news.

There seem to be pills now, all with multiple "WARNINGS" and instructions not to take them if you suffer from liver disease, etc. etc. that I have almost no idea of what they are for. Half the ad seems to consist of the warnings.

SUBSCRIBE everyone who uses subscriptions!

OK, Middlemarchers!!!

Wake up!!

Clocks have changed and Halloween is over, thank heaven. This week's reading is SIX chapters, but we could start with our responses to the first couple. The first one, especially, is short.

The princess Rosamond is actually impressed with Dorothea despite D's plain dress. The question is, is she impressed because even she can see D's beauty which doesn't need all the bows and pink ribbons that Rosamond constantly adorns herself with. In fact she teases Lydgate that she will be jealous whenever he calls at Stone Court to take care of Casaubon.

So, here's the question: Do you think Rosamond has a genuine appreciation of D's beauty or is she more impressed by the fact that D's social standing is higher than hers?

Maryal

So, I've been meaning to post a link to the National Zoo's Panda Cam--or rather, the TWO panda cams. Usually one of them is on the inside of the den where the cub, Tai Shan, resides and the other is on the mother, Mei, who is often outside the den eating bamboo. It is astonishing how much bamboo Pandas eat.

I keep trying to imagine what it must be like to subsist on bamboo. We have bamboo growing around here (Maryland)--a huge stand at my vet's office, for example. It looks tough and completely inedible to me, especially without cooking!

Here is the Panda Cam

Roasmund appreciates nothing, only calculates her value compared to others and their competition. Dorothea is a possible rival to her own prized-by-the-town beauty - whether Dorothea knows it or not. I view this type of person as in a constant Queen-of-the-Mountain contest.

"We have bamboo growing around here (Maryland)--a huge stand at my vet's office, for example" and another huge stand in my back yard (sigh). I planted it in a moment of madness, and have been fighting to keep it from taking over the world ever since. Maybe I need my own panda! Thanks a lot for the link, MARYAL.

I see you have grown up, something I've never managed to do. I LOVED trick or treating with the grands last night. Most fun I've had in years. But how do I explain to the two year old that no, we aren't doing it again tonight?

It's hard to know whether Rosemund will have a moment of self knowledge or not. I think Eliot intended that moment for us readers.

The contrast between Rosamond and Do. is profuse. The pale, blond, washed out golden girl (Ros) emanates envy, IMO. She is jealous and desires the social status that the dark haired beauty, Dorothea is graced with. She resents any time that is not devoted solely to her. She's sees D. as perfection personified, as does Will and she does not take too kindly to that. She even begrudges her husband the time he is studying while at home. By the way, what does that mean? " Ladislaw is a sort of gypsy; he thinks nothing of leather and prunella."

I think Lydgate made a major mistake when he says "What can a man do when he takes to adoring one of you mermaids? He only neglects his work and runs up bills." Oh dear, he best check his wallet.

Rosemonde is all for show and so she sees other women as possible rivals or as bbc said She plays queen of the mountain all the time. She does see Dorothea as a rival and expresses her jelousy.

Though Will may not interprete Dorothea's leaving the room so abruptly she is torn by loyalty vs. her desire to be in Wills presence, but this would be against her husbands wishes.

I was surprised at Dorothea giving a pledge of money to Lydgate for the hospital. Of course she sensibly sees this as an avenue for social improvement which is her joy.

Since her husbands talk with the Doctor Dorothea has once again become dejected. She had an epiphany about Casaubon, the state of their marriage and her uselessness in this union. She is getting more knowledge about her situation but should snap out her masochistic attraction to misery and make some changes in her life. She is not a prisoner and she has some power over her situation but she refuses to use it and makes herself a martyr which suits her perversely pious personality. faith

Yes, indeed. He's already starting to feel the pinch. And to begin to notice R's shallowness.

Alf, I wondered about that line, too! Hope someone can help.
Rosamond probably is jealous, but I give her credit for speaking up and acknowledging Dorothea's beauty. she could have just simmered and seethed and plaotted strategies to put herslf in the limelight more, esp. in Lydgate's eyes. Maybe she'll do that anyway, but at least he knows that she can recognize beauty in someone that isn't HER!

People!! Yay!

I was getting lonely.

bbcesana, you seem to have about as much fondness for Rosamond as I do. She has always reminded me of a spoiled Barbie doll (I was never a doll lover; it was stuffed animals for me).

And Andy is back with her as usual restrained commentary. I get all fired up about some of these characters too, but at the moment I am maintaining a certain decorum. So it's good to hear Andy carry on!

And Faith, it's always good to see and read you. Both you and bbc see Rosamond as all show and no substance. She certainly is an expert at manipulating men though, isn't she? Maybe that's why she gets my fur up. Ever since high school I have been amazed at how some women act differently when it's just women than they do when there are men around.

Rosamond thinks only of herself; maybe that's why I like her brother so much better than I like her. Fred at least cares about other people--he especially cares for Mary and although he has been as spoiled as Rosamond, he realizes that there are other people in the world.

Jo--I'm working on the line with "leather and prunella" in it. So far, all I've come up with is two lines from Alexander Pope's "Essay on Man":

Worth makes the man, and want of it, the fellow.
The rest is all but leather or prunella.
—Alexander Pope, Essay on Man, IV, 203-204

From that context, I take the meaning to be one's boots and their tops. I looked up prunella and found it is a heavy fabric used for the tops of shoes. In other words, Will doesn't care about anything having to do with his boots, with being properly dressed (by extension) and he is thus a bohemian. Think hippies.

Unfortunately, I don't have access to my connection at work and can't look up prunella in the OED. I'll try it again later.

Joan K--You give me too much credit--I'm not an adult because I don't like Halloween. I've just never liked it especially, ever since I was little. No reason that I can locate. Anyway, it certainly doesn't have a thing to do with maturity in my case! And if I had grandchildren, I'd put on the best possible front for liking it. I did for my own children.

Maryal

How about selling some of that bamboo to be used for flooring? We are using it in place of hardwood in two new rooms we are adding to our house. It is a very renewable resource because it grows very quickly. It is also durable.

No bamboo or pandas living or growing in Maine though.

Back with some "real" thoughts later...

Maryal: I'm laughing about your Halloween attitude. I have to admit that I was having fun last night despite my broken doorbell, which was a pain, not being able to hear when anyone was at the door. The thing that was the funniest to me last night was that almost all of the kids showed up with pillowcases for their candy hoard! Doesn't that remind you of the old days. When I was a kid, everyone took around a pillowcase because they were so huge, but strong, and could hold a ton of candy. Well, they're back. I loved it!

Marni

I am not a Halloween person either. Our community neighborhood voted on a party for last night and I was the dissenting vote. Hmmm- go figure, me the rebel. I had enough of all of that stuff when the kids were little, now I would rather eat sliced apples than bob for them. I had two of the neighbor ladies stop by last eve to tell me what fun they had (sans Andy).

I'm still a bit befuddles with the "prunella" thing. It sounds like a female fruit to me.

Jo- you said “Rosamond probably is jealous, but I give her credit for speaking up and acknowledging Dorothea's beauty. She could have just simmered and seethed and plotted strategies to put herself in the limelight more, esp. in Lydgate's eyes. Maybe she'll do that anyway, but at least he knows that she can recognize beauty in someone that isn't HER! “

I think she was just fishing for a compliment from Will, don’t you? She’s nosy and wants to know what gives between will and Do. She’s a woman and could probably sense “something” in the air and in their demeanor.

”I quite envy your acquaintance with Mrs. Casaubon. Is she very clever? She looks as if she were."

” "You are a devout worshipper, I perceive. You often see her, I suppose."

Yep, she’s fishing and she’s searching.

Please don’t read my entire post if you have not finished this week’s reading, so that I don’t spoil anything for you. I will be away from the Middlemarch discussion for the rest of this week, but wanted to comment on several things.

I was surprised that Rosamond thought highly of Dorothea. I guess she was going by her husband’s opinion. Then again, I think Rosamond is one who likes to be aware of where she lies in relation to the other women, so she was curious as to Will’s opinion. I think people think of Rosamond’s looks when they think of her, but people think of Dorothea’s manner and stature when they think of her.

The section of the reading on the new hospital and the people’s reaction to it and to Lydgate was very interesting, although a bit too long. Time will tell whether or not the hospital succeeds. It takes time for people to get used to new ideas and new ways of doing things. If Lydgate can prove himself by successfully treating patients, that will contribute to the success of the hospital. However, Lydgate is going to have to find a way to include himself with the other doctors as well as find ways to include them in his running of the hospital.

I love how Eliot just tosses one or two lines at the end of chapters in what appears to be an off handed way, but then have them contain major plot developments. She does this twice in this week’s reading. The first time is at the end of Chapter XLVI, when she mentions Rosamond’s pregnancy. The second time is at the end of Chapter XLVIII, when she confirms Casaubon’s death with the line, “But the silence in her husband’s ear was never more to be broken.” I “fall for” this technique every time and keep on reading.

I have to say, I think I will give up on speculating what is going to happen next in the book --- I don’t think I have been right yet! LOL! Just when I was enjoying having Casaubon around to bug Will, he up and dies! I must confess, I skimmed ahead a couple of chapters just to be sure he really had died. Can you tell I am always skeptical of what I read? Since I don’t want to speculate on what will happen next, I will just say…

I’ll catch up with you all early next week.

I also wanted to find out what the term prunella meant but mostly because one of the funniest things I have ever seen was a show called Faulty Towers . The actress on the show was named Prunella Scales and I wondered if the name meant something to do with Prunes and how could her parents do that to her? Well in searching that out I came up with the following : to cut away the superfluous or undesired parts. Or prunelle, a French liquere distilled from plums.

What has this to do with Will? I think it has more to do with Lydgate who quotes Alexander Pope than it has to do with Will. It is Lydgates opinion and as such shows that he is learned enough not only to know Pope but can quote him in an ordinary conversation. So perhaps he doesn't read Novels (as we once discussed) but he does know Classic Literature.

My appendix says this is a "reference to social concerns and appearances". We know Will is a creative fellow and follows his own Piper. He likes to lie on the rug of the peoples homes he visits. Oh I remember that type of fellow. They wished to be great artists or poets but when they grew up became Professors hoping that they might have students who they would send out into the world to become the Great Writers who they couldn"t be.

But Will is doing a mans job and earning an honest living. So like Lydgate, they are Mature in that aspect,no matter what they think of one another.

By the way John Cleese was the star Of Faulty Towers . If you haven"t seen the 13 episodes a great treat awaits you.

Judy

OK, Andy and Judy! I'm at work and have access to the trusty OED. I tracked down the expression "leather or prunella." It's under LEATHER not prunella, but there's a link to it from prunella. More on prunella later, but here's the phrase:

Leather and prunella--"an expression for something to which one is utterly indifferent.

[This is, strictly speaking, a misinterpretation of Pope's words; the context refers to the difference of rank between the ‘cobbler’ and the ‘parson’, prunella being mentioned as the material for the clerical gown.]" (OED)

Will is indifferent to difference in rank, something which much concerns many of the citizens of Middlemarch.

More later on "prunella" which is a coarse fabric as one used in the upper part of shoes or a parson's gown.

But I have to go to class right now.

Laura--Thanks for the warning. I have almost, but not quite, finished this week's reading. I'll return to your post when I have finished!

Maryal

OK, the OED has four possibilities. I have omitted the obsolete one which had something to do with a fever.

prunella, n.

A strong stuff, orig. silk, afterwards worsted, formerly used for graduates', clergymen's, and barristers' gowns; later, for the uppers of women's shoes.

prunella, n.

A genus of herbaceous labiates, of general distribution in both temperate zones. P. vulgaris, Self-heal, is a common weed in Britain. (Formerly also taken to include the Bugle, Ajuga reptans.)

prunella, n. Variant of prenello--a. Name for a variety of plum or prune, fresh or dried. Obs. b. The finest kind of prunes or dried plums, made from the greengage and other varieties.(Oxford Eng. Dictionary)

I'll bet Prunella on "Fawlty Towers" would like the last meaning the best. So, Andy, there are your prunes!

All week I've been entering by the front of the SeniorNet page where Middlemarch is listed with some other books in paragraph style and kept getting last week's 'For Your Discussion' and no posts regarding this week's reading at all.

Yesterday, because for some reason I didn't see the book title on the front page I entered through the 'Books' link at top of page and found the new discussion notes and posts.

This happened again this morning so I thought I'd let you know and also try to find out if it's just my computer (poor old gal) or if anyone else is having the same experience.

Also, thanks for the posts on the leather and prunella...that was going to be my question but I have the answer now.

Alliemae

p.s. I'm also a Fawlty Towers fan!

Thanks for letting me know, alliemae. Will have to notify Patwest to check out the problem. I think all the links take you to this page now, but remember to subscribe (at the bottom) or your subscription might take you back to the first part of our discussion. Sorry you got lost but glad to have you back.

In reading back over the posts I've been missing, in post #5 of 27 saw the instructions to subscribe. Have done so and will hope I gain entry more directly in the future. All's well that ends well.

Alliemae

Maryal- well that sure cleared that up for me and I thank you kindly. " Ladislaw is a sort of gypsy; he thinks nothing of leather and prunella." Utterly indifferent, yes! That is our Will, is it not?

Judy and Alliemae I love John Cleese so I'm going to check my Netflix list to see if I can get the DVDs for Faulty Towers.

hmmmm "Netflix list" what a great idea...are they for rent or buy???

Alliemae

Ya gotta love old Mrs. Dollop who believed our dear doctor’s primary reason for admitting patients was to “get them in the end” for the final autopsy. I tend to agree with her, the more cleaver of physicians should know what’s wrong with his patient before their demise, not after the fact.

The clever Lydgate “intensified differences in partisanship” in Middlemarch, particularly with the fact that he didn’t believe in subscribing drugs. It caught my interest that the pharmacists “with whom he ranged himself,” might become upset that he charged a patient for the actual visit and not for drugs. Can you imagine how today’s pharmaceutical companys would react? Aye- here’s the rub! ” There's no reform in the matter: the question is, whether the profit on the drugs is paid to the medical man by the druggist or by the patient, and whether there shall be extra pay under the name of attendance."

Alllie- Netflix is so much per month for all of the movies you wish to rent. I'm not sure if I can get these, I'll have to inquire.

Re: Faulty Towers

It is an English production put on by all the PBS stations at one time or other. They have a catalogue from which you can order this show either on VHS or DVD. It is worth the price. Personally I have laughed at this show more every time I have seen it. Good investment. I am one of those who beleive that laughter is inner jogging for all our organs and keeps us healthy.

Have to run to Doctor once again. Will relate to Novel later today

Judy

So, opinion on Holloween is mixed. I'm a real scrooge about Christmas, but have always loved Holloween. Shows something unflattering about my character, I'm sure.

My sister is always urging me to join Netflicks.The price varies, I think it's currently $20 a month. That's all you pay. You make a list of the movies you want. They send you three. you can keep them as long as you want. But every time you send one back, they send you the next one. You can change your list whenever you want. The thing I like is that the DVDs come with a return envelop, already stamped. All you do is put the DVD into the envelop and put it out for the mailman.

You do need a DVD player, though. They don't do tapes. They have a lot of the PBS shows: I want to see Upstairs Downstairs -- I never saw it. But for my husband "going out to get a movie" is a ritual. The rental place is next to Trader Joes, so he gets treats, and we have a "food and film festival".

Thanks for all the bamboo tips. I feel better. Meanwhile, I do love the sound of the wind in it.

Enough. Back to Middlemarch.My daughter pointed out that the physician being paid for the drugs he prescribes is a conflict of interest. He doesn't get any money unless he prescribes drugs, whether they are needed or not. Our medical system is developing a related problem. Docters are required to attend a certain number of "classes" a year to maintain their liscence. These "classes" are given by the drug companies, and often are simply sales pitches for whatever drug they are pushing. My daughter says the info given about the drug is often incomplete, misleading, even wrong -- meant to make it seem like the best in the world. Jody is very careful, but I have friends who have been taken off what they were on to be given this "wonderful new drug" which was less effective, even inappropriate for them.

Re: #5 - (a) Can Will's appearance in the church that morning have anything to do with Casaubon's attempt to extract a promise from Dorothea without telling her what it is? (b) Has she made a binding promise in her decision to do whatever it is he wishes, even though she has never voiced it to him?

(a) I think Yes. I think Cas wants D. to promise to have nothing to do with Will if Cas dies although in this book section we do not know positively what he wants her to promise to do. All Cas says is: "It is that you will let me know, deliberately, whether, in ease of my death, you will carry out my wishes: whether you will avoid doing what I should deprecate, and apply yourself to do what I should desire." [What a jerk.]

(b) Yes, I think D. has made a binding decision. However, what she thinks that she is promising to do is different from what Cas has in mind. D. thinks she is promising to carry his work: "....it was clear enough to her that he would expect her to devote herself to sifting those mixed heaps of material, which were to be the doubtful illustration of principles still more doubtful....And now she pictured to herself the days, and months, and years which she must spend in sorting what might be called shattered mummies, and fragments of a tradition which was itself a mosaic wrought from crushed ruins -- sorting them as food for a theory which was already withered in the birth like an elfin child...."

D. thought for a moment that possibly Cas might mean something else. But then she was convinced it was continuing his work.

Dorothea did not want to promise at all. She told Cas. it wasn't right of him to ask it of her. And she had asked Cas. for time to think about it. She felt forced to promise: "....she simply felt that she was going to say " Yes " to her own doom: she was too weak, too full of dread at the thought of inflicting a keen-edged blow on her husband, to do anything but submit completely."

This business really did them both in. Cas actually died in the garden the next day. D. went into a delirium after his death, probably partly from the wrenching experience of feeling forced to say "Yes." Also, she may have felt guilty that she had not said it immediately when he was alive. She may think she killed him by not promising immediately.

Marni

I loved this part about Will's mischievous side - the scene when he had decided to go to Casaubon's church to see Dorothea and vex Cas: "...by this time the thought of vexing Mr. Casaubon had become rather amusing to him, making his face break into its merry smile, pleasant to see as the breaking of sunshine on the water..."

Poor Will, though, became so uncomfortable in church and realized what a gigantic mistake he had made. Great understatement from Eliot: "It was no longer amusing to vex Mr. Casaubon."

Marni

Question 3: Does Lydgate see the storm clouds gathering at home?

Lydgate doesn't see a number of things. First and Foremost the darkest cloud is economic; unpaid furniture bills coming due, unpaid mortgage on the house, a baby on the way and a wife who wishes to be a rich lady in the "Best Company". Money worries about the new hopital too although Bulstrode seems to have that in hand.

The other cloud is Rosamond telling Tertius to "change his profession" as though it were a pair of dirty socks. She shows so little empathy for her husbands hard work and dreams of Medical breakthroughs that something bad is undoubtedly in the offing. She is beautiful but not exactly a helpmate.

Think of why she married Lydgate. Hoping he would "up her status".

Think of why he married her- she was beautiful and appealing.

Oh , the chickens are going to come home to roost!

Judy

I can't say I'm going to miss the old turkey. I think it was terribly cruel of him to attempt to bind Dorothea to following his wishes after his death--a dead hand indeed!

Wanted to jump into the novel, grab him by the back of his collar and say, "Now look, Mr. Casaubon, you really need to think about the end of your life. You must be agreeable so that people will have good memories of you instead of memories of having denied you a promise that you would not explain. What is wrong with you? Isn't it enough that you married Dorothea and then realized that marriage was not for you?"

And then I wanted to poison him.

And there is Celia who has recently had a baby. I'll bet Dorothea wants one too although one wonders if she would want one with Mr. C. And Rosamond has a baby on the way. All these new people. I think the outlook for Celia is quite rosy. She has an easily pleased and good-natured husband and a baby. She's sort of the middle ground between Doro. and Rosamond, I think. I hope we see more of her later.

Thank you all for posting. I hope you, Laura have a good rest of the week and you must promise to return to us for the next section. Marni, I loved the part about Will and thinking of the pleasure he would get out of showing up in church and annoying his cousin. Joan K--I'm not big on Christmas either. The holiday I love and always have loved is Thanksgiving where the focus is on good friends and family, good food and fellowship. And the stores don't sell it forever and one isn't expected to make a list or buy gifts for people who either don't really want anything or would rather pick out a gift for themselves.

Boy, I sound grim and I'm really not at all grim. Really.

Maryal

Greetings from very sunny Florida - Pensacola! I got up early to use the computer in the lobby, which I am told is very popular after 7am. We're on central time here.

I've been reading all of your posts - in one sitting. It's fascinating to witness the way Eliot manipulates our opinions of her characters from chapter to chapter. (Maryal, I admit that you never wavered in your assessment of Casaubon. I confess that there were times I felt pity for him. When he began his attempts to control and manipulate Dorothea, I started to lose some of those sympathetic feelings.) Eliot would have loved participating as an author in this discussion. In a way, I guess that's what happened way back then as she learned the reaction of her readers from installment to installment.

I have just a little time to talk back to you - on your early week observations as I play catch up. Bruce's softball team is now gathering for breakfast...I haven't met them or their wives. I realize I'm being terribly anti-social with my back to them at this computer. I'd better join them.

Is Rosamond really jealous of Dorothea's attraction to other men, impressed with her natural beauty, her social standing? Some of you see it as jealousy - I have to agree with , bbc. "She appreciates nothing." Rather than jealousy, I see her as bewildered - at a loss to understand Dorothea's appeal to Will- to her husband. Dorothea is her polar opposite - she just doesn't get it. She starts asking men what attributes men find in her. It's Will who sums it up - "when one sees a perfect woman, one never thinks of her attributes, one is conscious only of her presence." Now how can Rosamond compete with that?

The real irony in this scene - it is Dorothea who leaves hurriedly from the Lydgate home - fighting tears...but why? Can it be because she finds Rosamond entertaining Will at home ALONE? Is it Dorothea who is feeling a twinge of jealousy? At least Will is not lying on the rug at Rosamond's feet as she plays the piano when Dorothea enters...

Judy, Will might be making himself at home when he visits, lying on the rugs - but what point is Eliot making when she has him playing Pied Piper with the neighboring children - a la Michael Jackson?

I didn't notice any of you comment on the lesson that Rosamond learned from Will's admiration of Mrs. Casaubon - that "woman after marriage might make conquests and enslave men." Uh oh. I haven't read ahead to know what if anything will result from her husband's lack of attention, but feel that Eliot has just planted a seed that we will see grow later on in the story.

Really enjoyed all your comments on Pope's quote from his "Essay on Man" -

" Worth makes the man, and want of it, the fellow/

The rest is all leather and prunella."

don't you find Eliot's depth of knowledge amazing...keeping in mind that she didn't have a lot of time for research between installments. All of the epigrams and "leather and prunella" quotes sprinkled throughout the novel! This is an extremely well-read lady!

I think the fact that she is quoting from Pope's "Essay on Man" in this instance is noteworthy, don't you? Isn't that really what this novel of Reform is all about?

Lydgate seems to be spending an inordinate amount of time with patients - and his microscope. One of the advantages of working at Bulstrode's hospital. Andy, do you note Rosamond's growing concern with the rumors that Lydgate wants his patients' corpses for research purposes. Funny, yes, preposterous yes, but he's also telling Rosamond how important it is to study actual corpses for research... Not sure if Rosamond enjoys the " funny" stories - or listening to her husband talk of his chosen profession.

Time is up...wide, white sandy beach beckons. MAYBE I'll go to the softball games tomorrow, but today I'm a beach bum.

Re: "it is Dorothea who leaves hurriedly from the Lydgate home - fighting tears...but why? Can it be because she finds Rosamond entertaining Will at home ALONE? Is it Dorothea who is feeling a twinge of jealousy?

JoanP: You hit the nail on the head about it being Dorothea who is jealous. I don't think D. realizes it, however. She's going to have to examine her feelings.

Re: "At least Will is not lying on the rug at Rosamond's feet as she plays the piano when Dorothea enters..."

As for Rosamond entertaining Will at home alone....I think Ros. does all she can to charm any man who interests her and Will is attractive and interesting to her. Ros. wants Will dangling on her string. Will, on the other hand, is simply being his usual charming entertaining self. He is friends with both Mr. and Mrs. Lydgate. I don't think he is fooling around with Lydgate's wife, although he can be a flirt. But, it does look bad, I think, from Dorothea's point of view when she comes upon the two together as though they are having a tete a tete.

JOAN : good luck to Bruce's team. And have a great time.

I agree with you and MARNI. D. is jealous. But also, seeing how she reacts to the scene makes her reevaluate the scenes between her and Will. Being her, of course she will feel guilty. At the least, she is no longer so oblivious.

The introduction to my addition interprets the scene between R. and W. as a sexual encounter. I don't see any justification for that.

If you're not interested in the whole "leather and prunella" quote, skip this since it might turn tedius and ruin your afternoon.

However, an English major and teacher must be allowed her small idiosyncracies, one of which is relentless tracking down of quotes.

Sooooooo--through work, we have temporary access to 18th century literature online--yes, all of it. Yes, scanned originals in that strange old fashioned typeset which delivers medial s's as f's. Fun to look at.

I decided to check out the trial access so I can help a colleague of mine badger our librarian to pay for a subscription. And I thought of Pope. Alexander Pope, he of the rhymed couplets.

As it turned out I'm not as good at Boolean searches as I thought I was and although I could find the volume the poem "An Essay on Man" was in, I couldn't figure out how to get to it. It's in a huge collection of poems.

Soooooo, I went to Google and found an online version of the poem.

"An Essay on Man" is a long poem, divided into four epistles. Close to the end of the poem, in epistle 4, we find these lines:

Honour and shame from no condition rise;
Act well your part: there all the honour lies.
Fortune in men has some small diff'rence made;
One flaunts in rags, one flutters in brocade,
The cobbler apron'd, and the parson gown'd;
The friar hooded, and the monarch crown'd.
`What differ more,' you cry, `than crown and cowl?'
I'll tell you friend! a wise man and a fool.
You'll find, if once the monarch acts the monk,
Or, cobbler-like, the parson will be drunk,
Worth makes the man, and want of it the fellow.
The rest is all but leather or prunella.

Pope's point here is that no matter what a person's class--friar or monarch--cobler or parson--if the person does not act as he/she should, their specific claim to social standing makes no difference whatsoever.

Notice that in the last two lines, it is "leather OR prunella," not "leather AND prunella" as it occurs in Eliot's novel. At some point, Pope's phrase got changed and people forgot the context. Pope's point in this section is that the worth of a person is to be judged by their character and not by what they are dressed in--leather (the cobbler) or prunella (the parson).

By the way, for those of you who have not yet read enough stuff about Pope's poem, I think you all will recognize the beginning of Epistle 2:

Know then thyself, presume not God to scan,
The proper study of mankind is Man.
Placed on this isthmus of a middle state,
A being darkly wise, and rudely great:
With too much knowledge for the Sceptic side,
With too much weakness for the Stoic's pride,
He hangs between; in doubt to act, or rest;
In doubt to deem himself a God, or Beast;
In doubt his mind or body to prefer;
Born but to die, and reas'ning but to err;
Alike in ignorance, his reason such,
Whether he thinks too little or too much:
Chaos of thought and passion, all confus'd;
Still by himself abused or disabused;
Created half to rise, and half to fall:
Great lord of all things, yet a prey to all;
Sole judge of truth, in endless error hurl'd:
The glory, jest, and riddle of the world!

OK. I'm through now. Blame George Eliot for putting the quote in and steering me back to Pope.

Maryal

I forgot to add my one little observation about Middlemarch.

oooops.

When Rosamond is so taken with Dorothea, I think she is struck by two things--D's beauty which all seem to comment on and D's social standing which is above Rosamond's. Remember D's uncle owns a good deal of land and her husband is an upper level member of the clergy.

Rosamond's mother, I think, was the daughter of a tavern owner and her father is a businessman. That places them solidly in the middle class--rising at this time and growing like topsy. Doctors didn't stand all that high at this time period.

Maryal

Deems: Thanks for the Pope! Wow, I haven't read that for a long time. It's not a very cheery picture of mankind.

Doctors weren't in that high a position. Lydgate was a physician which was higher, though. Also, weren't his relatives in some sort of lower nobility? Was there a baronet, or something? Rosamond was all hot to trot to visit them.

Marni

Thanks, Maryal! Read that forty years ago, but it seems more meaningful now.

Hi Everyone...I am sooooo missing the group discussion.

Having a VERY HEAVY Latin Verb week and still have chapters 46-48 to read in Middlemarch so don't even dare to come near the discussion as I like to be surprised and don't want to know any of the good bits till I read them.

I've just passed the part at the end of chapter 45 where Rosamond, calling Lydgate "Doctor Grave-face" seems to be attempting to use the 'little girl' part of her 'feminine wiles' in a discussion with her doctor-husband and he says:

"No, no, not so bad as that, said Lydgate, giving up remonstance and PATTING HER RESIGNEDLY (caps mine)." And I felt a small red flag pop up...

Anyway...I fully intend to catch up early in the weekend so that I can read all of this week's posts and see if I had any reason for that red flag...

Homesick for all of you and Middlemarch as I spend Halloween Week in Rome, I remain, affectionately,

Alliemae

Alliemae, it is so good to hear from you! Enjoy your honeymoon in Rome, but remember we are waiting for your return to Lowick!

The boys of summer are not doing as well as they expected on the softball field. Today will determine whether they go on, or go home. The seafood is great though...in pig heaven - oysters, shrimp, fresh fish du jour, ...and I have developed a real taste for the well-seasoned fried catfish batter down here! It's a bit overcast this morning - I plan to go to a crafts show this morning and then if the clouds burn off, will head to beach for another day. Oh, and just in case you are worried about Bruce's lack of a cheerleader, I did get to the last one yesterday at 4 pm.

Maryal, thank you for your persistence in tracking down that Pope passage! Don't you get the feeling that Eliot had it before her as she wrote this? Do you suppose that her readers were familiar with this essay? This line caught my eye -

"Act well your part: there all honour lies."

This could be said of Caleb Garth, of Fred Vincey...in this case, Lydgate is speaking of Will as another who " thinks nothing of leather AND/OR prunella." Can it be said of Lydgate himself?

He seems well-intentioned, his life dedicated to medicine and research. Does he hope to make the medical breaththrough for fame or for the good of mankind? I'm not so sure about that yet.

Both his goals to be a good doctor in Middlemarch - and to carry on his research to make medical history, seem threatened, don't they?

The Middlemarch doctors, threatened by resentment of his methods and success are boycotting the hospital. Laura, his success curing his patients could help the new hospital, but I'm worried about the fact that he is taking credit for curing more than he really is curing - like pneumonia - and malignant cancer. Don't you think this will backfire on him if such incurable cases come his way?

Then there is his research...he's getting behind, others making progress. He is still determined to catch up. A baby will take more of his free time than he anticipates, but a greater threat is what Judy describes as Rosamond's lack of empathy for his dreams. I see red flags too, Alliemae...even more than a lack of empathy, I see a growing distaste for his research. As Judy says, she's sounding as if he can change his profession as if it were "a pair of dirty socks." Without his medical practice and research, what is Lydgate? Pope's words echo again -
"Act well your part, there all the honour lies."

Off to the crafts fair...looking forward to the demonstration on making rugs out of old socks. (I'm sure they use clean socks, Judy!)

She's all fired up, you go girl! I didn't mean to make you go off on a tangent searching when I expressed my ignorance of Eliot's statment re. **** and shinola, or excuse me I mean leather or prunella.

Thank you for your diligence and your explanation.
Strange, I had a conversation on the golf course this AM which was akin to Pope's thoughts. I wish I had read that first, perhaps I could have been more eloquent in my disdain for those who put themselves above others.
I'm off to finish my scheduled assignment. (I'm behind.)

What's the deal with this statement? "You go against rottenness, and there is nothing more thoroughly rotten than making people believe that society can be cured by a political hocus-pocus." ahah that is so fitting in today's world isn't it and here was Eliot writing my exact sentiment years and years ago.

Andy--You know I love doing research when it's on something that interests me and since I currently have access to various resources that I don't know what I will do without when I retire, I might as well use them a little--even though I have to brush up on Boolean searches.

Joan P--Sorry to hear that the Boys of Summer are not doing that well. Since the tourny is held in Florida, I assume the teams come from all over. Tell us more about it when you get a chance--how many teams are there? How badly is Bruce's team doing? Anyhoo, you are having a vacation and some fun, and you even went to a game.

Alliemae--OK, learn those nasty old Latin verbs if you must, and we'll be waiting right here for you when you have them all by heart. In fact, if you want, I can arrange a really difficult Latin verb test. I have a nephew who majored in classics (now a lawyer) who could probably remember enough to write me up something really awful.

Politics seem to be surrounding us in the recent chapters, don't they? It's hard not to make some comparisons to our own time. Just think, there was all these problems with getting people who didn't own land into the Parliament, the House of Commons, and in the U.S. you have to either have or be able to raise a LOT of money just to run for president. The days when we could see someone like Lincoln or Woodrow Wilson elected seem to have passed us by.

The Reform Bill of 1832 reorganized the House of Commons and essentially had the effect of broadening the electorate. I remember reading somewhere or other (a long time ago so give me a break) that England didn't have a Revolution (like we did, like France did) during these revolutionary time because reforms were made all along.

Good I reminded some of you of Pope. I too have not read him in years since I don't teach any 18th century courses and he's somewhat too difficult (requiring many footnotes) for freshmen. But I find him more interesting now too than I did when I was forced to read him.

And driving home I was thinking about the time period. Pope's Essay on Man would have been very familiar to Eliot's readers since he was highly regarded well into the nineteenth century. I also thought of our founding fathers (U.S.) and what they would have been reading. In addition to all the obvious writers like Locke, they read Pope and Swift. We were exceedingly lucky that those who wrote our foundational documents actually believed in the power of Reason (the 18th Century is called "the Age of Reason") and in the ability of Reasonable ideas to govern a people. This had never been done before--in modern history--and they accomplished what they did in part because of their education.

Maryal

The point that Maryal made about changes in England happening over time brought to mind a fact I first saw in "The Map That Changed the World" by Simon Winchester.(The story of the first Geologists).

This was the "Enclosure Acts" that took place in England between 1760 and 1830. They are considered one of the most important bases for the development of the Industrial Revolution since they forced so many farmers off the land and into the cities and their burgeoning factories.

The new inventions of "four field crop rotation system" and the "seed planting dril" made a necessity of large consolidated plots of land. Up till that time England had been divided into small strips. Even wealthy farmers tended to own separate lots spread out throughout the community.

The Enclosure Acts 1) Divided up the common land which had been shared by the community. The poor had used it for grazing their livestock and for gathering firewood.

2)Redistributed plots to combine them into large areas.

3)Revoked poor peasants rights to glean the lords property.

4)Required all farmers to build an expensive gate around their lands.

Finding out out about these laws helped make obtuse parts of MM clearer. Especially in relation to land ownership and the few poor farmers left on the land. Remember the encounter between Brooke and Dagley (the farmer). Some of the political struggles are clearer too.

As I read MM I am learning so much History and Politics, as well as getting to know a fascinating group of people that sometimes I get flooded with how little I knew when I began the book.

So thanks for all your input!

Judy

THANKS, MARYAL AND A. POPE!
Is Lydgate the “being darkly wise and rudely great”? He plans a program of medical reform that will improve the lives of Middlemarchers and eventually everybody else, confident that he will develop successful new methods of health care, but he takes no interest in the reactions of the population, the patients and the other doctors. More and more he seems arrogant about the subsidiary roles others will play in his grand design. He regards Bulstrode as the financial means to his ends, thinking that he can ignore B’s other pet issues, and he isn’t politic about the egos of the men he should regard as his colleagues--- ignorance is no excuse, theirs or his! Eliot makes their ignorance transparent, and we certainly see the smugness of the other doctors when they realize that the upstart isn’t luring their patients away.
He clashes with Will Ladislaw about the necessity of getting men in Parliament who will vote for reform, whether they are particularly astute thinkers or not. If he had considered the necessity of cultivating support for his own grand design he mightn’t find himself in such a difficult position where the Fever Hospital and his own financial future are concerned.

As for Will, he “hangs between; in doubt to act or rest,” personifying “chaos of passion, all confused” where Dorothea and Casaubon are concerned, but he does seem to have a cool head about the business of using the “ Pioneer” and the available candidate (Brooke!) to promote the Reform issue. An interesting encounter! Will seems more grown up here that he does later on his way to church, expecting to see Dorothea. In that emotional chaos he seems an adolescent, singing his sad little song and tearing his hair, at least metaphorically.
I thnk Lydgate is in greater danger of compromising his integrity than Will is. Will the gypsy will just move on if things develop that he can't support. Lydgate is committed personally, professionally aand financially to his current situation.

JO:I thnk Lydgate is in greater danger of compromising his integrity than Will is." Yes, because L. has things to do that he thinks are really important. Will started this out of laziness, or a desire to be near D. But it seems that he (and we) are discovering that Will is a born politician. Has he already compromised his integrity trying to sell Brooke as a reformer, when he knows the man is as changable as water?

Up to now Will’s life has been one of self-absorption. Eliot says that if it weren’t for his attraction to Dorothea, “and perhaps the want of not knowing what else to do, Will would not at this time be meditating upon the needs of the English people or criticizing English statesmanship; he would probably been rambling in Italy sketching plans for several dramas” etc, involved in prose and verse and art, vaguely sympathizing with human needs from a distance. But now he finds himself actually working at something. “Our sense of duty must often wait for some work which shall take the place of dilettantism and make us feel that the quality of our action is not a matter of indifference.” Could that mean he really wants to make a positive contribution through his journalistic and political efforts, that he wants to have men in Parliament vote for what is right even if they don’t precisely understand everything that “right” implies? Maybe so! I want to wait and see before I decide that he has sold his soul by backing Brooke. Brooke is good man, albeit a vague thinker who is slow to act for the betterment of his own tenant farmers, but I think there may be hope for him, too. He could be an instrument of good. After arguing against that possibility with Will, Lydgate admits that he does and will use people to get medical reform as long as he can draw the line on how far he will go with them. I think the danger in his thinking is that he’s helping Bulstrode to a kind of power over people that he shouldn’t have. Will really isn’t doing that where Brooke is concerned. Politics being what it is he could be supplanting another candidate with base intentions.

I see I have some catching up to do. Lots of sharp work here. I agree Lydgate needs to realize that people witg plans and dreams need friends, and self-centered arrogance is no way to gain them.

Now I need to go read, and see what all this is about Will and politics.

My thanks to all for your kind messages of sympathy. ..Babi

I see the Dead Hand has struck the old goat as I finished my reading tonight. GOOD! He was getting on my nerves -the unscrupulous bum.

We're hooome! Maryal, the Boys of Summer made an amazing comeback, but they had to play many, many games to do so...to get out of the losers' bracket. They finished yesterday, second only to a really good team from Texas. No one complained...but they were all sore. Bruce and I spent time on the beach after the last game, filled up on oysters and crab - and then began the long drive home stuffed and happy. I can still feel them swimming around inside!

************************************ I've been looking for Nan Freem who dropped in earlier in the week. We really do want to get to know you, Nan!

Babi, it's so good to have you back with us...read on to the end of Book V and you'll be all caught up . I've got a lot of catching up to do too...I agree with you - "Lots of sharp work" and good information here!

Judy, thank you so much for the information on the Enclosure Acts. Really helps to explain the farmers' position in Middlemarch today, doesn't it? Today, meaning 1832. No wonder they are suspicious of any new acts of parliament - look where the last ones put them! Who is it who wants reform on their behalf then? The Reform folks seem to be sticking together...I guess it is the desire to reform that brings Will and Lydgate together. Strange friends, aren't they? Do they like one another? I'm not sure yet. Will spends time lying on his rug, Lydgate gives him the kind of advice one friend would give another...Lydgate tells Will to maintain his personal independence from Brooke. Isn't he one to talk? What about his own dependence on Bulstrode?

And let's not overlook Lydgate's friend (his only real friend?) Farebrother's advice -

* Keep separable from Bulstrode.

Don't spend small sums you haven't got.

An interesting remark, Jo - Lydgate IS in greater danger of compromising his integrity. But can Will the gypsy move on? His heart, remember his heart has brought him to Middlemarch...won't it keep him here? Several of you have mentioned Will's growing interest in politics. I don't really see that yet. I remember something about his position on the Pioneer wasn't the lofty dream that he once had. Maybe we all give up lofty dreams as a part of growing up. If he's serious about his interest in the rights of the downtrodden, he's beginning to share Dorothea's idealistic dreams for a better life, justice for all, etc.

You've all noted Rosamonde's growing negative remarks about Lydgate's medical practice - she tells him that his cousins at Quallingham think he's stepped down by choosing the medical profession. Do you sense a growing struggle between Bulstrode and Rosamonde for Lydgate's allegiance? If so, where's your money on the winner of such a struggle? Bulstrode, his financial support on one side - Rosamonde, spending what he earns and wanting him to quit his practice. Poor Lydgate. I'll agree with you, Jo. He's in danger - not heeding Farebrother's advice, is he?

Well, we've still got five more chapters in "The Dead Hand" - perhaps some of these issues will be resolved. We need to figure out whose "Dead Hand" is the subject of the title. Why "hand"? Does this indicate the control the dead may have over the living? Andy, it looks as if you get your wish... Casaubon is gone, leaving his young widow with a promise not quite stated, but intended. Does he still have power to control her? Read on!

I agree, Joan: Ladislaw will try to stay close to Dorothea. I meant move on in the sense that he would find other employment if working on the Pioneer or helping Brooke seemed improper to him in any way. Also, "The Dead Hand" does indeed seem to be the hand of control. Casaubon has something in common with old Featherstone: the need to believe he will prevail even after he's dead. I think his disappointment with his work feeds his desire to show a kind of strength, and Will's presence in Dorothea's life makes that need even more intense. He has to have control, so he convinces himself that he's protecting her. I don't know if Dorothea is aware of the codicil, but she can make a guess, based upon C's words and behavior to date where Will is concerned. The effect of Celia's revelation seems to be D's awareness that she has been suppressing strong feelings for Will. Poor girl, as Eliot says -- now what? (That's where I am right now.)
Rosamond is proving to be an even bigger airhead than I thought she was. I thought she cared enough about Lydgate to respect his dedication to his work, but it seems that the status of some other profession is more important to her. And she is obviously ignorant of how her expectations of a certain lifestyle are threatening to ruin him.

Well tomorrow you all will start an interesting new swction, while I'm on the road back to Maryland. We'll start to see what a dead hand can do, see again something good happening to someone good, have a touching love triangle, and discover that one of our Middlemarchers has a Past (with a capital P) that may effect others as well.

I should be back online by Tuesday. Enjoy.

What a pervasively dark and meanspirited character George Eliot created in Mr. Casaubon.

As I read the last chapter for the past week and started reading the first couple of chapters of this new week, I felt a haunting awareness of a coldly damp and grayish specter hovering right behind my right shoulder...

It was very creepy!

And no matter what they were doing as the story progressed, that vague sense of that bitter and bony darkness prevailed.

I, myself, was happy to be with Celia and James..simple folk, but pleasant, proper and good. Sort of like a mug of warm milk...

Alliemae

"Ladislaw didn't think much of Casaubon's notions, Thoth and Dagon -- that sort of thing: and I fancy that Casaubon didn't like the independent position Ladislaw had taken up... "
The old goat was simply jealous, with his head buried in Thoth. Now wasn't he the "magician, the trickster" as well as the Egyptian moon God? When I googled him I found that THOTH means "truth and time."
What truth was our Mr. C searching for, I wonder?
Thoth also was believed to be the author of the spells in the Book of the Dead, a helper and punisher of the deceased as they tried to enter the underworld. I wonder if Mr. C was greeted cordially when he tried to enter? Perhaps Dante would have met and escorted him to where he was assigned.

Welcome back, Joan P!!

I wasn't here yesterday because of the papers. I graded two classes worth because grades are due my noon tomorrow and I needed one more grade for this period in order to make it fair.

Thank heaven that's over.

Except I also collected papers today so it all begins again.

Sigh.

Anyway, I still have to read this week's chapters--planning to do that this weekend but because of the papers never got to it.

This is a short week--Veteran's Day. And I am profoundly grateful.

Maryal

I think it is interesting to see Sir James' attitude when he finds out the contents of Casaubon's will. "I say that there never was a meaner, more ungentlemanly action than this..... the world will suppose that she gave him some reason; and that is what makes it so abominable -- coupling her name with this young fellow's." Sir James' is so irritated that he "forgets himself." "I tell you frankly, I suspect Ladislaw."

I get the feeling that Sir James still has feelings towards Dorothea and is jealous of Ladislaw. He is certainly extremely protective of D, more so than just because he is married to her sister. He contemplates arranging for Will to be sent away.

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Meanwhile, Celia has had her baby. Her rapture over her baby at the moment when she reveals the codicil of the will to Dorothea shows how worlds apart Celia and Dorothea are here. While D. is crying, Celia is "watching the remarkable acts of the baby, which were so dubious to her inexperienced mind that all conversation was interrupted by appeals for their interpretation made to the oracular nurse....."

"Look, Dodo! look at him! Did you ever see anything like that?" ...."What? why, his upper lip; see how he is drawing it down, as if he meant to make a face. Isn't it wonderful! He may have his little thoughts.... Do look at him." Her baby was the "unconscious centre and poise of the world, who had the most remarkable fists all complete even to the nails..."

Isn't this just like a new mother!

Eliot writes wonderful comedy. I thought Mr. Brooke's political speech was a riot. Will has been working with him on the speech for some time. Then, just before Mr. Brooke speaks to the crowd, this hysterical scene when he gets drunk:

"'I'll take another glass of sherry, Ladislaw,' he said, with an easy air, to Will, who was close behind him, and presently handed him the supposed fortifier. It was ill-chosen; for Mr. Brooke was an abstemious man, and to drink a second glass of sherry quickly at no great interval from the first was a surprise to his system which tended to scatter his energies instead of collecting them ... Mr. Brooke himself was not in a position to be quickly conscious of anything except a general slipping away of ideas within himself..."

And then the audience starts throwing eggs at him! Here again is Eliot's wonderful comic understatement: "here an unpleasant egg broke on Mr. Brooke's shoulder."

Will is furious.

Marni

Well Celia is lighthearted, dressed in white, very happy and absorbed in her new baby. She does not see why Dorothea should mourn a husband who was so foul and had made her so unhappy. Dorthea dressed in black and very sorrowful is her usual tragic self a foil in character and looks to her sensible sister. Of course she makes us more comfortable. Characters like Dorothea who are so sincere and so wrong make me very upset still I recognize people I know in them. I don't think anyone thinks that Dorothea and Will ave any connection. They probably think this because of social status and general dislike of Will. They would not consider for one moment that the codicil was written out of jealousy of Dorothea's association with Will. Dorothea is stunned though when her sister says she would never marry Will. Dorthea knows this is not the truth. Dorothea hates to hear people talk so about Will. However for the first time she is admitting her longing for Will and begins to think they could be lovers.

Will in the meantime knows nothing yet of the codicil. He is chagrin overt the comedy of Mr. Brooks speech, where he is egged and hung in effigy. Mr Brook's quites and urges Will to do the same and get out of politics. But Will thinks he can raise himself up by being a political r=writer. He needs a sign from her in the meantime in order to stay at the paper. He thinks Mr Brook and others are trying to get ride of him but he will not go unless she doesn't care for him.

I understand the politics more in the book than I understand the medical reform Lydgate wants. If he doesn't use drugs at all what does he care who pays who for them. It also seems strange to think that only surgery helps people. Or is he advancing some idea of natural healing when he sits with a patient and says soothing things. I don't fully understand it but I do understand that Rosalind is going to ruin him and he should be much more wary of her than he is. faith

Will has not found out about the codicil in Casaubon's will. Even so, he is thinking about leaving. He is seeing a great "chasm" between Dorothea and himself. He thinks that if he shows any further interest in D., now that she is (apparently) a wealthy widow, people - even D. - would think he was after her money.

Will is ready to make himself into a man who can take care of D. on his own merits. He thinks it will take about five years. Will believes he has talents that might bring him fame and fortune. "He could speak and he could write; he could master any subject if he chose, and he meant always to take the side of reason and justice, (this will appeal to D's saintly side!) on which he would carry all his ardor. Why should he not one day be lifted above the shoulders of the crowd, and feel that he had won that eminence well?"

Then Mr. Brooke tells him he will not be continuing with the "Pioneer," and Will is out of a job. At this point, Will decides to stay in town for awhile. He thinks D's relatives are trying to get rid of him and he is not going to be pushed around.

"Will said to himself, 'The rest of the family have been urging him to get rid of me, and he doesn't care now about my going. I shall stay as long as I like. I shall go of my own movements and not because they are afraid of me.'"

--------------------------------------

Meanwhile, Dorothea, who has just been told about the codicil in the will, has just (finally) discovered that she has feelings for Will. "....she was conscious of another change which also made her tremulous; it was a sudden strange yearning of heart towards Will Ladislaw. It had never before entered her mind that he could, under any circumstances, be her lover: conceive the effect of the sudden revelation that another had thought of him in that light -- that perhaps he himself had been conscious of such a possibility."

Marni

Right from the beginning of this chapter "The Dead Hand" I have been curious and searching for the meaning of the chapter. Knowing Eliot I was sure she would play with us a bit. In Chapter LI, near the end I finally found it.

Mr Brooke is talking to Will about the newspaper.. He is getting rid of Will and says :"And under the circumstances, you might like to give up-might find a better field. These people might not take that high view of you which I have always taken, as an Alter ego, a right hand- though I always looked forward to you doing something else. I think of having a run into France. But I'll write you any letters you know.........".

Being a Right Hand(Now a Dead Hand) meant being in a creative position with a steady income and was very important to Will. Now he will be forced to seek his fortune anew, perhaps far from Dorothea.

AS Dorothea is beginning to let her real feelings towards Will engulf her, the young man has some important decisions to make. The explosive news at the end of the chapter that Will is related somhow to Bulstrode makes the plot thicken even more.

The Author has us on a seesaw. Will goes up and D. goes down. Oh, will TrueLove never be on an even plane?

Judy

Well, Will is still here, momentarily at least. Maybe we'll see a little romance. I hope so.

Good morning to all! I have returned, but have not read this week's reading yet. I plan to be back with some comments late tomorrow. Until then...

First of all, Welcome Back, LauraD and all who have been away!

Re: "based on irrational jealousy or something else?" (Consideration #1.)

IMO, although irrational jealousy was probably a part of his decision, I think his delusional fixation of continuing his power over Dorothea even after his death had more to do with it. I also thought that this, more than the completion of his life's work for him should he die, was also the promise he wanted to extract from Dorothea the night before he died. I think the promise was about Will.

Re: "What influenced Dorothea to choose Farebrother over the "apostolic man," Mr. Tyke," (Consideration #2.)

Basically, I think that Dorothea had become completely weary with anything or anyone whose ideas were 'cast in stone', whose attitude was 'right is might', and who spoke more than he listened and/or responded. A big factor, also, IMO was the money. Farebrother certainly needed the money and I think she felt he would gamble less if he had a sufficient income.

Maybe this second thought is too simplistic for GE's complicated plots but...

Alliemae

JUDY, I would never have thought of Will's change from 'right hand' to being unemployed might be a meaning of the 'dead hand'. Maybe there is more than one 'dead hand' meant. Eliot can be very subtle.

The more obvious 'dead hand' is Casaubon's attempt to control Dorothea's life even after his death, laying his 'dead hand' upon her future choices. Thank heaven he died when he did! I think she was about to agree to his horrible proposal, and being Dorothea, she would then consider herself bound to carry it out. Brrr!

Babi

Good morning, early birds! Welcome home, Laura!

I'd like to understand Casaubon's motivation for that codicil a bit better, before moving on. I agree with you, Alliemae, I too felt that the promise he tried to extract from Dorothea had more to do with his jealous reaction to Will's appearance in Church that morning, more than that she carry out his work after his death...as she feared he wanted her to do. We all know she would have done this without his asking for a promise. I think Casaubon assumed she would too.

Just WHEN did Casaubon write the codicil into his will? I think it is important to know this because if this is an old codicil dating back to pre-wedding days, that would put another spin on his intentions when he wrote it, don't you think?

Faith, if it wasn't simply jealousy that motivated him, as Andy clearly believes, or if he had no such suspicions at the time he wrote it...then why is it in his will? Ironic, isn't it, Marni, that the codicil has the exact opposite impact on Dorothea as Casaubon intended, as it forces her to recognize her latent feelings for Will?

Jo, I got the impression that Dorothea had no idea that Casaubon had attached that codicil to his will, but she knows instinctively that it was not added because he suspected any involvement between herself and Will. I remember sighing in relief when I saw that she realized this. I don't think he wanted Middlemarch to believe this either. But then, why did he do it? And when?

Marni describes Sir James'attitude - thinks it ungentlemanly and mean, he thinks that the world will suppose that she has given her husband reason to add it. Does this mean Sir James does not believe it? Does he know why and when it was added?

Judy, your "Right Hand/Dead Hand" idea is something I hadn't considered - but will. Like Babi, I had thought it represented Casaubon's control over Dorothea from the grave. I guess you could also extend it to mean that Dorothea's position as Casaubon's "right hand" will cease now that she has learned of the codicil. Her hand is also a "dead hand" as far as continuing his life work is concerned. Except for that codicil, don't you think Dorothea would have considered it her duty, her unstated promise to continue the pointless research? Wasn't it fortunate for her that he had included the codicil then? She can get on with her life now!

We see a new woman emerge from mourning and shock. A few thoughts about the possibilities open to her...

Now that Dorothea has inherited all, is there anything legally preventing her from giving to Will what she thinks he deserves of the estate - his just inheritance...without marrying him?

Knowing what we know of Dorothea, isn't it silly to think that IF she and Will really wanted to marry, that she would let the codicil interfere with her wishes? Money, land, do they mean that much to her? Another thought...if she gave up the estate to marry Will, who is the next in line to inherit the property? You have to wonder if there isn't something in the will that determines this. Dorothea would probably be happy to see it go to Featherstone's Alms' Houses!

JoanP...you have given us much to consider!! I don't know why I somehow seemed to have assumed the codicil was added as close to Casaubon's death as his request for Dorothea's promise.

This will certainly spur me on to further close examination!!

Alliemae

Joan I think C convinced himself that Dorothea was blameless and that Will was a "heel" and apt to take advantage of a helpless widow. He wrote the codicil to protect "the little woman". He never wanted the neighborhood to feel that Dorothea was in any way involved with Will and he totally ignored the idea that that might happen what ever his intentions.C had never liked Will, had always resented him even while he supported him in his chosen lifestyle which indeed was much like Fred's until Dorothea came into his life. Now he is considering a new career as a political writer in order to impress Dorothea. In this way he is like Fred who may consider a "lowering" of his status in order to please marry. Faith

When did Casaubon write the codicil?

What a super question, Joan P!

I'm guessing that he wrote the codicil after Dorothea suggested the idea of splitting her inheritance with Will. He must have realized at that point that if he didn't add a codicil, then Dorothea would be free to give Will all the money she wanted.

With the codicil though--and I wouldn't put it past Casaubon to think of the effect of the codicil on his neighbors and the people of Middlemarch--it would make it much harder for Dorothea to simply give Will money since it would confirm, in many people's minds, the idea that Will was interested in her and maybe she in him.

The wonderful irony is that Dorothea IS interested in Will and we've long known of his interest in her.

I’m back in Maryland. I managed to completely miss the fall leaves which I love. They were just starting to come out when I left, and were all on the ground yesterday when I came back.

But we had great weather ib California. Blue skies, sun, ocean breezes. So I can’t complain.

MARNI:“Isn't this just like a new mother! “ Yes, it is. And like a new grandmother too. I remember going through it again with my first grandson. (Of course, I’m much more sophisticated now right?).

The political speech is so funny. Eliot’s understatement is great. But I begin to wonder about Will: desperately trying to make Mr. Brooke sound like something he’s not. I admit, I think less of him for it.

I’m afraid that Sir James is right: the codicil could ruin D.’s reputation if it were known. Eliot wrote “The Mill on the Floss” about a woman whose reputation was unfairly ruined: the “shunning” that Eliot received from her family seems to have been a major sore.

FAITH: Lydgate does prescribe medicine: the reform is that it is the druggist (apothecary) not the doctor who makes up the drug and charges for it. L. is arguing against doctors who prescribe useless medicines so that they can make money by selling them. But the Middlemarchers misunderstand what he is trying to do.

Welcome back LAURA. Did you miss Middlemarch?

Yes, even without knowing about the will, Will finds himself in a poor position. I’m curious what he’ll do next.

ALF: “I think that Dorothea had become completely weary with anything or anyone whose ideas were 'cast in stone', whose attitude was 'right is might', and who spoke more than he listened and/or responded. “

Yes, Mr. Tyke sounds a lot like Casaubon, doesn’t he. Also, I think she trusts Lydgate’s opinion. It’s interesting how these two main characters circle round each other without ever really becoming close. It reminds me of Anna Karenina, where the two main characters each marry someone else, and only meet once.

I agree, BABI, I was terribly afraid that D. would find herself trapped by C.’s jealousy. Whew (I hope).

JOANP: I also had assumed that the codicil was added just before C. died as a reaction to Will’s appearance in church. I’ll have to thinks some more. In any case, the fact that he tried to extract D’s promise means to me that he knew that losing the inheritance alone wouldn’t stop her.

Deems and Joan K, you've sorted this out for me. I agree -- Dorothea wanting to share with Will probably triggered C's idea to write the codicil. He knew that any attempt on her part to override his wishes where Will is concerned would have been scandalous. He's threatening her with humiliation to stop her. Another irony: her desire for fair play really complicated her situation.

Re: Dorothea's "desire for fair play"....

I thought that a very important thing Eliot tells us in this section is that Will, in his future career, "meant always to take the side of reason and justice...."

Now isn't this going to be a perfect match?!

Marni

I think we can tell a little about what would happen to Dorothea, in terms of Middlemarch society, acceptance by, if she gave money to Will after the codicil becomes public. (Doesn't everything become public in Middlemarch, whether the news is accurate or not?) All we have to do to understand is look at Sir James' response to the codicil. He wants Brooke to make sure that Will gets out of town so that no whisper of disrespect comes to his wife's sister!

And he's a good guy.

The baby is something else, isn't he? He seems to have all his appendages and some very interesting expressions, according to the obviously doting Celia. I would think that all of this baby celebration would be hard on Dorothea. After all, this is her kid sister who now has a happy home complete with baby.

I'm so glad Casaubon is dead I can hardly stand it!

"I'm so glad Casaubon is dead I can hardly stand it!"

Deems...I thought of you the minute he died...I KNEW you were gonna be sooooooooo happy!!

Alliemae

If the dead hand is the one from the grave it could also be that of Featherstone who left all to Joshua Riggs who brought Raffles into the story . The chapter ends on the note of the secret relationship between Will and Bulstrode.This is another approaching drama to look forward to.

As far as when the Codicil was written.. It is less important when than why. Causabon was so unhappy at not acheiving his lifes dream that he wanted Dorothea to complete it. He knew that Will was a living threat to her total devotion to this task. The author paints a dreadfully sad picture of what this means:

"And now she pictured to herself the days, and months, and years which she must spend in sorting what might be called shattered mummies, and fragments of a tradition which was itself a mosaic wrought from crushed ruins-sorting them as food for a theory which was already withered in the birth of an elfin child."

Oh dear, I so hope that Dorothea doesn't end up a tragic heroine.

Judy

"

Judy--Yes, we have a number of possibilities for the "dead hand" don't we? Certainly both Featherstone and Casaubon have written some unexpected codicils to their wills. I wonder when the habit of making codicils to keep busy during the last decade(s) of one's life became so engrossing to those writing the wills.

I'm hoping that Dorothea is no more tragic than she chooses to be. The benefactrice in her is beginning to come to the fore. First order of business--grant the living to Mr. Farebrother. I was happy to see that sweet man who has been so busy taking care of all his relatives would at last be able to stop gambling in order to make ends meet.

And Mr. Tyke is just too evangelical for me so I'm glad he didn't get it even though we hardly know him, except by hearsay.

Maryal

Good morning! Joan K has returned to us...in spite of jet lag - why does it seem worse going from West to East? Is it because it is a longer flight? At any rate, we are both surprised and so happy to find you back so soon after landing, Joan! Welcome home!

Judy, I'm not sure I agree with you that the timing of the codicil was less important than the reason behind it - unless it was simply to keep Will away so that Dorothea could complete his life work without distraction. Probably one consideration, but I think it was more than that. Judy, if that was the only reason, it sure had the complete opposite result. The "new" Dorothea will not be wasting her life away with that project! I do believe she might have, had it not been for the codicil. I think she believed that her decision to make him the promise was based on completing his work. She would have considered that binding...

Considering yesterday's posts, we seem, as a group, to have concluded that the promise might very well have been a result of Will's appearance at church that morning and the old jealousy...but the codicil was written earlier when Dorothea suggested splitting the inheritance with Will, as Maryal noted.

"She (Dorothea) did wish Sir James could know what had passed between her and her husband about Will Ladislaw's moral claim on the property: it would then, she thought, be apparent to him as it was to her, that her husband's strange indelicate proviso had been chiefly urged by his bitter resistance to that idea of claim, and not merely by personal feelings more difficult to talk about." Dorothea in Chapter L -

My question had been - can't she do that now...give Will his due, without marrying him? It might have been legal, but you pointed out two reasons yesterday why she probably can't or won't do that. First of all, she is realizing that she does have feelings for Will...although she does tell Celia she will never marry. The other reason is stronger - not only her ruined reputation in Middlemarch as JoanK pointed out. Knowing Dorothea, she wouldn't care about that at all if she could help Will. But she would never want to hurt Will's reputation! Fai points out how she hates to hear people talk disparagingly about him. (Did any of you wonder about the mocking comparison of Will to "an Italian carrying white mice?") The question persists - Why was Casaubon dead set against Will Ladislaw getting his hands on any part of the family inheritance? He didn't leave him a nickel. Surely we will hear more about this in later chapters. The introduction of Bulstrode into the family history is more than likely the beginning of our enlightenment. Any ideas on Bulstrode's relationship to Will from the few clues provided by Raffles?

We see a new Dorothea returned to Lowick. A woman whose heart we had not previously witnessed - whose heart is making the decisions now. Why did she choose Farebrother over Tyke? hahaha, Tyke was much like Casaubon, wasn't he? Maryal, it was more than the fact that she was uncomfortable with the evangelical style...felt the sermons not of use to the farmers and laborers at Lowick. Basically, she agrees with Farebrother's approach - it's better to pardon than to condemn. She also believes in giving second chances...and considers the impact the living would have on Farebrother. He seems to NEED the living, more that Mr. Tyke, doesn't he? But maybe it's more than that. He is Will's friend! Will sings his praises. The next thing we know, Farebrother has joyfully, happily moved to Lowick. And now he is playing an even more important role than at the whist tables of the rich. Have you ever played whist? Interesting that they played for money. Do people play bridge for money at social gatherings? Like poker?

Re Dorothea granting Farebrother the position.....

Lydgate gave Farebrother glowing recommendations to D., also. I think that influenced her decision. And it gave Lydgate, Farebrother's friend, a chance to make up for voting against him earlier when he supported Bullstrode's decision for Tyke.

Marni

Re: "I was happy to see that sweet man who has been so busy taking care of all his relatives would at last be able to stop gambling in order to make ends meet."

We certainly see another charming picture of Farebrother as he cares for the aging females in his family. (I find Miss Noble very sweet and amusing. She makes "tender little beaver-like noises and steals candy to give to children.")

We also, somewhat unexpectedly, see that Will has been visiting Farebrother's sweet family, entertaining them, another charming and endearing side of Will that D. finds out about.

Have you noticed how Farebrother, Lydgate, and Ladislaw have gravitated towards each and seem to be good friends? I find them all admirable men of excellent character with ideals and dreams - now, at least.

------------------------------------------------------------

I was glad to hear what Farebrother found out about Featherstone's will, info he passed on to Mary, who was still feeling guilty: "'...your action made no real difference to Fred's lot. I find that the first will would not have been legally good after the burning of the last; it would not have stood if it had been disputed, and you may be sure it would have been disputed. So, on that score, you may feel your mind free.'"

-----------------------------------------------------

Poor Mary and Fred - what a quandry. They really are in love with each other and can have no one else. Fred still doesn't know what to do with himself. He hates the thought of going into the clergy, but will do it to support Mary. Mary will not have Fred if he enters the clergy because she knows it is not for him. Fred's father can't afford take him into his business and can't lend him any money to get involved in farming, which Fred has contemplated. (I can't blame his father - he already paid for Fred's schooling to go into the clergy.)

And then, ah, the unrequited love of Mr. Farebrother. Alas.

Re: Any ideas on Bulstrode's relationship to Will from the few clues provided by Raffles?

We discover in this section that:

The nasty stranger, Raffles, is a person out of Bulstrode's dark distant past, a past of "secret misdeeds committed." Bulstrode's name used to be Nick. Raffles hasn't seen him for 25 years. Bulstrode is paying off Raffles to keep silent about something that happened in the past.

Raffles is Rigg's stepfather.

Raffles stole a letter from Rigg and discovered in it something he tells Bulstrode: "...his poor mother's gone now..." Apparently, Rigg's mother is now dead.

Raffles says to Bulstrode: "The old lady must have been dead a pretty long while -- gone to glory without the pain of knowing how poor her daughter was, eh." Apparently, Bulstrode was involved with an "old lady" who had a daughter who is poor.

Raffles had been searching for and found Bulstrode's stepdaughter, Sarah Ladislaw. This may be the "old lady's" poor daughter. (Raffles can't remember her last name until Bulstrode leaves, so he hasn't told Bulstrode yet.)

Raffles said to Bulstrode: "I've often thought since, I might have done better by telling the old woman that I'd found her daughter and her grandchild." Sounds like the poor daughter had a child. Could this be our Will??? - Bulstrode's stepdaughter's child?? Is this part of the dark secret that Bulstrode bribes Raffles to keep quiet?

Egad!!

Marni (aka "the sleuth")

Oh, dear. I thought it was definite that Will Ladislaw was the son of Casaubon's aunt and her Polish husband. Also, the will was one drawn up at the time of Dorothea's marriage to Casaubon and the codicil was most definitely not there at the time. The codicil was added due to Casaubon's resentment of Will, and anger at the thought that he might someday win Dorothea.

I thought Celia somewhat insensitive in her manner of breaking the bad news to her sister, despite her feeling that she 'was administering what she thought was a sobering dose of fact'. Celia has become much more assertive, now that she is a successful wife and mother.

I was also impressed with Lydgate's insight into psychological symptoms such as the strain and conflict of self-repression. He did Dorothea a real service when he advised her well-meaning relatives to allow her to do as she wished.

There is a stinging opinion from Eliot of the "Apostolic" stance of the day. "Practically I find that what is called being apostolic now, is an impatience of everything in which the parson doesn't cut the principal figure." Regrettably, I have noted a parson of two of that stripe in my own time.

I like Dorothea's views of the best form of Christianity being taught: "..whenever I find one way that makes it a wider blessing than any other, I cling to that as the truest---I mean that which takes in the most good of all kinds, and brings in the most people as sharers in it."

Babi

MARNI: you're doing a great job of untangling what was said. I couldn't make head or tails of it. But I'm sure it will end up involving Will's mother. Ever since D. saw her picture and started to wonder about it (when she first visited Lowick), Will's mother has been lurking in the background of my mind as someone who will prove to be important.

Thanks for all the welcomes. I had a great time, but it's also great to be home. Not quite back in the groove yet but getting there.

Eliot HAS to come up with a nice woman for Farebrother!! Since it looks like he can't have Mary, I don't see anyone else on the horizon. I love his aunt, too. How sweet of Will to befriend her. Such poor relations often show up in books as figures of fun. How like Eliot to make her so sympathetic. Eliot has a laser tongue, but she also has a big heart.

Babi: Re "Oh, dear. I thought it was definite that Will Ladislaw was the son of Casaubon's aunt and her Polish husband."

This has not been ruled out! We don't know who the "old lady" is yet. Maybe Casaubon's aunt still plays a role in this. But it does sound like the "old lady's" daughter is the one who married a Polish man because of her last name. Such a mystery!

What else do we know about Will's past? I forget.

Marni

Marni, it WAS Lydgate who brought Farebrother's name into consideration for the living at Lowick, but without knowing anything about the codicil, he also was the one who brought up how much Will liked Farebrother...

"When he (Lydgate) was gone, his picture of Ladislaw lingered in her mind and disputed the ground with that question of the Lowick living. What was Will Ladislaw thinking about her? Would he hear of that fact which made her cheeks burn as they never used to do?"

It appears the lady is making decisions influenced by her heart. I'm still not sure what brings Lydgate and Will together - except for the fact that Will comes over a lot to sing with Rosamond. Don't you wonder WHEN Lydgate is doing his research?

I'm enjoying the conversation here on the relationship between Bulstrode and Will. This is how we do our best thinking...when we put our collective heads and impressions together. What do we have so far?

* Babi thinks Will is the son of Casaubon's aunt and her Polish husband. But then what is Will to Bulstrode, Babi? Do you agree with Marni? That Bulstrode married Casaubon's aunt Julia, who was Will's grandmother? This would make Will Bulstrode's stepdaughter's child.
* JoanK, the miniature is not a picture of Will's mother, but of his grandmother, the sister of Casaubon's aunt Julia, is that right? Remember how Casaubon always made the point that Will was NOT his nephew, but his cousin?
* Marni sees Will as Bulstrode's step-daughter's child. He married an "old lady" who had a child. Was that her daughter from her first marriage - the Polish man she married?

What's clear is that Bulstrode is living with a shameful secret- something he must atone for. If he merely married Will's grandmother, that isn't so reprehensible. I'm trying to tie together the reason Casaubon is so adamant that Will doesn't get any of his grandmother's share of the Casaubon estate.

It seems EVERYTHING and EVERYONE in Middlemarch is under Bulstrode's control. What do you think is the relationship between Will and Bulstrode? And then, what was the relationship between Casaubon and Bulstrode? Stay tuned!

Here's something else, Marni...I went back for more on Will's grandparents. Here's what he told Dorothea...

"... my grandfather was a patriot -- a bright fellow -- could speak many languages -- musical -- got his bread by teaching all sorts of things. They both died rather early."

They both died early! Who then was the old lady that Bulstrode married? It couldn't have been Will's grandmother. I'm getting generations mixed up here...need your help! How old is Bulstrode?

I agree with you, Marni, when you mentioned Eliot’s comedy during post #65. I laughed out loud at this quote, “No! the only way in which Mr. Brooke could be coerced into thinking of the right arguments at the right time was to be well plied with them till they took up all the room in his brain. But here there was the difficulty of finding room, so many things having been taken in beforehand. Mr. Brooke himself observed that his ideas stood rather in his way when he was speaking.”

Thank you all for welcoming me back --- what a friendly group you are. It is noticeable when someone is absent from this group, isn’t it?

JoanK asked if I missed Middlemarch. I can honestly say I didn’t. LOL! I think Casaubon’s death was a good breaking point upon which to leave Middlemarch for a few days. Plus, I have been reading Widow of the South, which I am finding to be a difficult book to read emotionally. Whew. I am over ¾ through, but feel confident in recommending it to fans of historical fiction.

Anyway, I want to say just one more thing about when Casaubon wrote the codicil…I was surprised to read that there was a codicil. Based on the timing of the events immediately before Casaubon’s death, I didn’t think he had had time to write one. Granted, the time in Middlemarch sometimes passes very quickly as we readers are informed of major events that have occurred without us there to witness them. I was assuming that he was possibly going to add it after hearing Dorothea’s response to his promise request. Then he died suddenly. Based on my assumptions, he hadn’t written it yet. Of course, having read the discussion, I see clearly that he wrote it earlier. It all fits.

I, too, am looking forward to a new and improved Dorothea, one who doesn’t allow Casaubon to rule her with the dead hand.

As for why Dorothea chose Farebrother over Tyke, I chalked it up simply to Dorothea wanting to help someone less fortunate. Yes, a bit oversimplified…

As for the speculation of what Bulstrode is trying to keep quiet, I can’t even guess. I am so muddled and confused by the information presented in the novel, I don’t dare even guess. Plus, I haven’t been right in any of my speculations yet! LOL! I am feeling the urge to read ahead…

Here is an interesting tidbit from the Sparks Notes site, in the commentary section for the part of the book we have just completed:

“Bulstrode's world is about to come crashing down around him. The contradiction between his public self and his private sins is about to come to light. It is money that leaves the trail that Raffles follows. A letter written to Joshua Rigg Featherstone regarding his purchase of Stone Court is the clue that leads his tormentor to him. Bulstrode makes the mistake of using the same tainted money to try to cover the trail by bribing Raffles to leave Middlemarch.”

I am not sure how this fits. I think this must refer to the piece of paper put in the flask to steady it. I will have to find that passage tomorrow. I am a bit bleary eyed now. Hmmm…food for thought.

JoanP: Thanks for finding the info about what Will said about his parents. So if Bulstrode's poor (monetarily poor) step-daughter is Will's mother, then she and her husband died young, leaving Will an orphan.

I did not say that I thought Bulstrode married Casaubon's aunt Julia. She may be in the picture, but we don't know yet from the evidence. All we know is that it seems Bulstrode had been involved with an "old lady." We don't know who the old lady is. Also we know Raffles found Bulstrode's step-daughter, named Sarah Ladislaw. Sarah seems to be the daughter of the old lady, so it seems that Bulstrode and the old lady were married.

So, it sounds like Bulstrode was married before. Hmmmmm. Did he run away from a marriage? Is he a bigamist? Is that part of his dark past?

Now Will Ladislaw....He may be Bulstrode's grandson - by marriage, not by birth. And Will is Casaubon's cousin.

This book is starting to sound like Peyton Place!

Marni

Does Bulstrode have any children of his own? I can't remember.

I am so happy that you Discussion Leaders found the online version of Middlemarch. It makes it so easy to find something I'm looking for. It's easy to skim through chapters I read earlier in bed. And I can copy and paste text to illustrate a point instead of having to type. It's great!!!! Thanks!!!

Marni

Laura

What is Sparks Notes site that you mentioned?

I know that you all think it is Causabons Dead Hand but there is Farebrothers Dead Hand and now Raffles is bringing up another Dead Hand from the grave of Wills Mother.

Eliot is as usual doing her dazzling act to confuse us and give us as many possibilities to consider as she can conjure up under one part of the book. I'm sure it left the English Folks of her time waiting for the next chapters to be published since they were as confused and curious as to the next group of events as we are.

And indeed MM is not Peyton Place but the writer of Peyton Place took her cues and style from MM. Judy

P.S. Joan P .Hope you have had a chance to return to simple English Fare after eating all that foreign food down in Florida. Hope you took your "digestive biscuits' with you when you went to that foreign state.

Sparks Notes is a website and also little booklets, like Cliff Notes. They give character lists, plot summaries, and commentary on classic books. The web site also has discussion and comment areas. I have been reading the Middlemarch chapter summaries and commentary on line at sparksnotes.com after reading the actual book to make sure I caught everything during my reading.

Thanks, Laura, for the info on Spark Notes. I've been using a library copy and after mid-November I can't renew it anymore. This site sounds like just what the reader ordered!!

Alliemae

Well, partially, anyway.

I love the occasional descriptions that take me right away from this overcast and becoming-November day. Especially this one involving a description of Mary as Mr. Farebrother comes upon her while she is gathering roses:

He found Mary in the garden gathering roses and sprinkling the petals on a sheet. The sun was low, and tall trees sent their shadows across the grassy walks where Mary was moving without bonnet or parasol. She did not observe Mr. Farebrother's approach along the grass, and had just stooped down to lecture a small black-and-tan terrier, which would persist in walking on the sheet and smelling at the rose leaves as Mary sprinkled them. She took his fore-paws in one hand, and lifted up the forefinger of the other, while the dog wrinkled his brows and looked embarrassed. "Fly, Fly, I am ashamed of you," Mary was saying in a grave contralto. "This is not beoming in a sensible dog; anybody would think you were a silly young gentleman."
(Chap. LII)

The scene is lovely, late afternoon and Mary completely herself, interacting with the little terrier (I'm thinking Welsh Terrier since I used to have one of those--Demi his name was). And the gesture of her reprimand is perfect. This is exactly how one "reasons" with a terrier!

Maryal

I'm thinking "Irish Terrier," Maryal- Gaela, by name. But this one seems smaller than both the Welsh and the Irish...isn't this the same one that Sir James brought to Dorothea during his courting days? She suggested he give it, the terrier (and his heart) to Celia...or was that one a spaniel?

Eliot is equally adept at evoking mood with her descriptions, especially those with beautiful women (Mary has evolved into a beautiful, desirable woman, hasn't she?) - as she is with comedy, when describing serious issues.

It is a fairly tense time in Middlemarch - politics permeates the air. And yet Eliot's portrayal of Mr. Brooke's attempt to run for Parliament makes it all seem so light-hearted, as several of you have noted. What now? The dissolution of the Parliament has taken place... Reform Bills are on the agenda for the newly-elected. You have to admit - Will has to admit, that Brooke isn't really the man for the job, even with all the coaching he gives him. He really does not want Reform, does he? Won't vote for it either, once elected. Now that Brooke has been thwarted in his attempt, he seems to be blaming Will by taking him off the Pioneer, in spite of the talk of Will being his "Right Hand," Judy. Why send him off to France? Why send him so far away, Mr. Brooke? Will Brooke try for office again- with a new right hand? Will he go? Only when HE decides he wants to go. But what will he do in the meantime without his position on the Pioneer? And does he really intend to study law, if Dorothea approves? He does begin to sound like Fred in his need for Mary to approve any decision he makes, doesn't he, Fai?

Marni - "Does Bulstrode had children of his own?" I remember when Mrs. Bustrode, (she's Mr. Vincey's sister) tried to talk Rosamond out of marrying Lydgate because he was not well-to-do, it was because, (I thought) she was really trying to deflect his interest to her daughter, Sarah. Did they have other children? Ellen Bulstrode was the one Lydgate had cured of the fever - the reason why Mrs. Vincey called him in to see Fred when he was sick.

In our discussion we seem to have jumped to the cliffhanger at the end of the discussion, skipping over much of importance in the chapters between. Maybe that's why this seems like Peyton Place. I agree, Judy, there is much more to the story than the soap opera aspects. Eliot had to put in these teasers at the end of each book so folks would feel compelled to buy the next one.

(Judy, the fried catfish is still with me.)

Alliemae - be careful how you use those sites - There are all sorts of chapter summaries available on the Internet. If you are using them, we ask only two things.

* Please don't introduce commentaries from these sources until AFTER we have finished discussing a section. The only opinionated remarks we should consider while we are comparing our own notes would be from the author herself. Maybe over the weekend when we are nearing the end of the week's discussion would be a good time for introducing more information from the outside.

*If posting from an outside source, please put the information in quotes or at least give the source, a link is even better, so that we can all consider the source. There are many opinions and observations out there, not all are any better than our own.

That said, it would help now to know what Mrs. Cadwallader had in mind when comparing Will to "an Italian carrying white mice." Later Dorothea says.."an Italian carrying white mice indeed!" Do you suppose Eliot's readers were familiar with this expression?

[An aside on terriers--Joan P, GAELA is a lovely name. It has to be Irish (one wouldn't call an Irish terrier Gonzo, would one?) but I don't know what it means. Please illuminate.

Also, the terrier could be a Welsh. They are usually only 12 inches at the shoulder. They're like really small Airedales.

I think that little dog at the beginning was a terrier, the one D. didn't want, but I don't think any colors were specified. Perhaps that very same little dog did wind up with Mary Garth. Thank heaven, because it seems she takes the very best care of all God's creatures.]

In answer to "Why send Will to France?"

Mr Brooke saw Will as a "sort of Burke with a leaven of Shelley". So sending him to France may have something to do with his obviously "arty" nature. Others describe him as an Italian carrying white mice. My guess (and it is a guess) is that this is a way of describing a "dandy" or a" dilletante".

Both Rome and Paris of the time were the centers of "High Culture" and serious artistic and literary efforts. Brooke may have felt that this was a place where Will would fit in and had a double advantage of keeping him away from Dorothea.

Another possibility is that he wanted Will out of the way since he was a close witness to his incompetent performance as a political candidate. Seeing the young man may bring to Brookes mind the shame of being pelted with eggs.

A third possibility has to do with GE. She needed to remove Will from the plot for a while so both he and Dorothea could do some more growing up.Put him on hiatus (if we continue to use Peyton Place analagies).

If he goes, I for one, will miss him.

Judy

My understanding of this "secret" Raffles has about Bulstrode is that it has to do with the marriage of a young "Nick" to an old lady who had a daughter named Sarah. The daughter married and had a child and had disappeared. Bulstrode evidently was the old lady's heir. Raffles found the daughter and grandson but when he came back the old lady was "dead and buried, and Bulstrode had the inheritance". Later after breakfast Bulstrode gave Raffles a hundred pounds and left to go get another and it was then that Raffles remembered the name of The old lady's daughter, Sarah Ladislaw. But he decides to keep this to himself. So we are left wondering what the upshot of this will be on Bulstrode. He would be no relation to Ladislaw and no where at this point in the story do I get the idea of who the old lady really was. We will find out in the future. That is what serialization of a novel is...a series of cliffhangers so you will buy the magazine again to get the new chapters.

I love the descriptive passages when they are like the one quoted above about Mary. I often have to read these passages twice to get the picture. Just a comment. I am really enjoying this book. Thanks for the explaination of the Dr.'s attitude re: drugs. I am glad to know he will prescribe. I remember when I was very young there was a news discussion in our papers about this very thing, Doctors dispensing drugs and receiving payment for them rather than writing prescriptions and the pharmacist dispensing the drugs. faith

Faith--I have just finished reading the chapter and got from it exactly what you suggested. Bulstrode now owns Stone Court, having bought it from Froggy. Raffles knows the general vicinity where Bulstrode lives because of the letter he accidentally picked up when he visited his stepson, Rigg Featherstone.

Raffles has come to Middlemarch to find Bulstrode because he knew Bulstrode years ago when B. married an older woman, one who already had a daughter. This daughter and the daughter's child disappeared. Thus Bulstrode inherited the old woman's money. Raffles found out where the daughter and her child were but didn't tell the old woman. The daughter is Sarah and her last name Ladislaw. Which makes Will that lost child, now grown.

And the remainder of Bulstrode's past we don't yet know though we will find out since the plot requires that all secrets ultimately come out.

Maryal

Alliemae--No problem. All is forgiven. Come home. We all slip up now and again.

M

Oh dear, Maryal, there is nothing to forgive Alliemae for! She hasn't slipped, even if what I posted may have sounded as if she did regarding the use of Cliff notes or Spark Notes in this discussion. She merely said the commentaries described earlier by Laura sounded "just like what the reader ordered"...and I posted that it might be better to refer to them in posts after we had expressed our own impressions here - and when they are quoted, the sources should be included.

If it sounded from my post as if Alliemae had done something for which she needed "forgiveness, then I'm the one who needs to apologize and ask HER forgiveness!!! And then you write to me that I'm forgiven!

Tell you what, Joan P--I hereby declare EVERYONE forgiven. Sorry, I misread. I remember the post about sparknotes and I guess it was Laura's. Oooops.

Maryal

DEEMS, I believe your summary of the Raffles/Bulstrode/Ladislaw connection is exactly right. The 'old lady' had lost all contact with her daughter, Sarah. Bulstrode inherited her money, the money he had when he came to Middlemarch.

Simply inheriting the money, however, would be no reason for Bulstrode to feel guilty. IMO, he knew about the daughter and her child, from Raffles, and bribed Raffles not to tell the mother. Bulstrode's reputation would be ruined if this got out.

I don't know what is meant by the Italian with the white mice either, but the impression that came to my mind was an entertainer at a county fairs of those days. I can just see this Italian showman with his trained white mice. To compare Will with someone like that definitely likens him to a low class showman.

Could anyone, by chance, explain to me what Will meant, when he was thinking about his future possibilities, by the phrase "make himself fit for celebrity by 'eating his dinners'"?

Babi

Babi asked, "Could anyone, by chance, explain to me what Will meant, when he was thinking about his future possibilities, by the phrase "make himself fit for celebrity by 'eating his dinners'"?"

According to the note in the Barnes and Noble edition, it means studying law! Who knew?!?!

Let me clarify a few things about the Sparks Notes web site for everyone. It does have the entire text on it. It would be perfect for reading the book if your book had to be returned to the library, or if you liked to read from your computer screen instead of a book. The chapter summaries are less than two pages in length and present just the facts of the story. I find these to be concise and accurate. The chapter commentaries are less than two pages and seem to be some sort of classic approach to the meaning of the text. I find the chapter commentaries to exist in a parallel universe to the discussion here --- not related and they seem like a boring term paper. There are also message boards with discussions and comments. I have not entered these areas and don’t know their merit. The long and short of this post is that for factual information, the site is helpful, but for commentary, I find it almost useless.

Yes, Maryal and Joan, it is funny how Mary is presented as desirable when two men are interested in marrying her, but not desirable when she is just a servant to an old man. Just another character for us to have our minds changed on by Eliot.

I don’t think we will find out if Mr. Brooke runs for office again. Surely after being pelted with eggs, he would get the hint. Then again, he is a politician…

I wish I understood the reference to “Italians carrying white mice.” I can’t find it on any of the quote search sites. And I am even three quarters Italian…

I am guessing about "an Italian carrying white mice". Will has some foreign blood in him -- probably not Italian. But the person who said that (who was it, does anyone remember?) is so provincial that there only contact with "foreigners" has been with Italian side show workers. So they identify Will with them. An American equivalent would be to say he is like an organ grinder with his monkey.

I am half Italian, too, and very glad we don't have to deal with that stereotype. The more modern equivalent, though, is to assume that anyone with an Italian heritage is a member of the Mafia. That one really gets my goat.

I do know what "to eat ones dinners" means -- thanks to the discussion we had a while ago about Gandhi's autobiography. Gandhi studied law in England and explained the process. This was almost a hundred years later, but apparently nothing had changed.

There were only two requirements in order to become a lawyer in England. First, one had to pass two exams -- one on Roman law, and I forget the other, hopefully on English law. There was no requirement to attend any classes, how you learned the material was up to you.

The second requirement was that you had to attend a certain number of dinners given by senior members of the bar. Luckily for Gandhi, who was used to spicy Indian food and found the bland English diet inedible, you only had to attend the dinners, you didn't have to eat the food. (He used to bring his own or go without). But it was called "eating ones dinners".

Gandhi, too, was puzzled as to what was the possible use of this. He speculates that the students, by mingling with lawyers, would learn a lot of law. But he said this was not the case. The lawyers sat at one table, and the students at another, and didn't talk. I suspect that the lawyers wanted to make sure that the student's table manners were good enough to enter a "gentleman's profession". Or possibly that was where the "old boys network" was formed.

Sadly, but not surprisingly, when Gandhi finished all this and went to practice law, he found that he had learned almost nothing that was of any use to him.

I found this on the web. Could this in any possible way have anything to do with the phrase in Middlemarch?:

"Sarah Wise, in _The Italian Boy: A Tale of Murder and Body Snatching in 1830s London_ (Metropolitan Books), has revived (so to speak) a story that has not been retold since the newspapers and broadsheets made it a sensation in its time. Far more famous is the case of the "Edinburgh Horrors" wherein William Burke and William Hare had not only snatched bodies but had manufactured them by murdering the victims first. Their crimes have entered literature and the movies, and "to burke" is even a term for the act. Three years later in 1831, similar crimes in London came to light and horrified and fascinated Londoners. Wise's book will do the same for the modern reader.

For medical students and anatomists in England, there was only one legal supply of cadavers for dissection, the gallows; getting cut up for show was another particular indignity that could be extended to the condemned. This might have been enough in years gone by, but in 1831 only 52 people were executed. A freshly exhumed corpse would fetch around ten guineas, at a time when a well-paid workingman might bring home eighty guineas a year, so the trade could be lucrative. Carlo Ferrari was a pretty fourteen-year-old street urchin who walked the city with his cage of white mice (and maybe a turtle) until he ran into the villains of this tale. The resurrectionists involved lured him to a home in a semi-rural part of the city, drugged him and drowned him, and then set off to peddle his body. When it looked too fresh, the police were called, and an investigation showed that Ferrari had not been the only victim.

Less than a month after the murder was made public, John Bishop, James May, and Thomas Williams stood trial in the Old Bailey. In a fitting conclusion to their careers, the resurrection men found guilty were resurrected onto the anatomist's table. It was discovered that Bishop '... had an extraordinarily good physique, proving far more useful as a specimen than the produce he used to deliver.'

The trial was a big case for the new London police force, and the role of the Police Inspector, then a novelty, was highlighted and began its acceptance by the public. The trial threw light on the horrid trade, its prevalence and the medical men who were accessories in its perpetuation. It served as a spark to reformation, contributing to the passing of the second Anatomy Bill in 1832, which allowed bodies other than those of the hanged miscreants to be a source of instruction. The unclaimed bodies of paupers could thereupon be used for dissection, and thus the "horrors" of the dissecting table started becoming less horrible; today enlightened future corpses often will their bodies for anatomical teaching."

Link

Marni, you just have to be right in seeing the answer to the puzzle in those words in the info you've found. It's the date, 1831, that convinces me. That puts it smack into the time of which Eliot is writing. She has made other references to fix the time of the events in the novel, for a kind of historical accuracy. She must have made a note of it while researching those years, and then decided to use it. Everyone must have been talking about in 1831. She would have been 12. Perhaps she shuddered over it herself.

I was saddened by the death of Casaubon. I can think of no other character in literature who has been so used and abused by his author. If only Dorothea could have seen the terrier in him.

It's just amazing, Joank, that you should supply the answer of dinners eaten, by recalling it from reading the Gandhi book. Yes, now that you mention it, I remember it too.

I've been so busy with other things that I've found time only to come in here off and on to read your posts. The book has really got me going on Eliot. I've acquired several others of her books which I will get around to reading some day. And do get the MM video, the BBC thing, made in 1996, I think.

"Fly, Fly, I am ashamed of you," Mary was saying in a grave contralto. "This is not beoming in a sensible dog; anybody would think you were a silly young gentleman." (Chap. LII)

And to that, Maryal added:

'This is exactly how one "reasons" with a terrier.'

And what a strange way to think about young gentlemen...

Or has the young gentleman found the way to Mary's heart? At a certain stage the pet routine is sweetly endurable. She certainly plays with his emotions. No, it's the author's doing, her way of giving the reader some genuine romance. God knows, we've had little enough of that. The things that get in the way!!!

Here, here...I'll drink to that!

All's well that ends well...it's good to be 'home'!!

Alliemae

Thank you JoanK and Marni for solving the two mysteries of words! So interesting!

Laura, isn't it amazing what this group comes up with? All you have to do is ask! Thanks, Marni, JoanK...and Babi too. Marni's tale of Carlo Ferrari, the pretty fourteen-year-old street urchin who walked the city with his cage of white mice fits right into Babi's "guess - that Will is being compared to "an entertainer at a county fairs of those days. I can just see this Italian showman with his trained white mice. To compare Will with someone like that definitely likens him to a low class showman."

Apparently, this expression was quite familiar to Eliot's readers at this time... "The romantic yet pathetic figure of the Italian child performer surfaced in the writings of Dickens, Dylan Thomas, Dostoyevsky, and others. Caricatures of Italian entertainers--a barrel-organist and dancing dog, "white mice boys," and girls playing violin--graced the pages of the penny press."" From this book review: Italian Child Street Musicians in 19th century Paris

During the nineteenth century, Italian child street musicians and others performed in cities across Europe and the Americas. Indentured labourers by virtue of a contract signed between their parent(s) and an adult employer (padrone), these boys and girls were taken to Paris, London, New York, and elsewhere to work as violinists, harpists, organists, pipers, and exhibitors of white mice, monkeys, and dancing dogs and bears. (Others apprenticed as figurine vendors, mosaic-cutters, chimney sweeps, and glassworkers.) Marked by their peasant costumes, rural manners, poor skills, and in some cases swarthy looks, the children caught the attention of urban authorities and journalists.

Once a respectable adult occupation, Italy's migrant music trade developed by mid-century a notorious reputation as a child slave trade run by cruel padroni who abused their recruits. Government, philanthropic, and media reports recounted lurid tales of poor youngsters snatched from rural homes to become virtual beggars on foreign streets..."

Thanks all who are helping to untangle the Ladislaw/Bulstrode relationship! No doubt we will learn more in later installments, but at least we have filtered out what we do and do not know. My guess is that Will is more closely related to Casaubon than Casaubon ever wanted to admit...which is why he went to such pains to keep him on the streets of Italy exhibiting white mice. But that's just my guess. hahaha, maybe the "old lady" was Casaubon's mother! No, I'm kidding - I think. Folks in Middlemarch would be aware of such a story.

Flora, welcome back - you've been missed! {{{Alliemae}}}

Maryal, my memory failed on two counts yesterday. The Garth's terrier is black and tan - definitely not an Irish Terrier. My Irish is red. Her name, Gaela, is probably more obvious than your Welsh, "Demi." Is the name due to the two-tone?

My other goof - the dog Sir James brought to Dorothea was a little black spaniel. She sent that dog...and Sir James to Celia.

Thanks for bringing the playful "terrier" scene to us, flora...Isn't it remarkable the way Mary uses humor to defuse potentially emotional scenes! Remember Featherstone's funeral...or was it the reading of his will? Both Mary and Fred have this ability to find merriment at the most tense moments, don't you think?' I find this is one of the best qualities they share.

Mary knows of Farebrother's interest by the end of their talk, doesn't she? How does it affect her feelings for him? I think he is a lovable man, but for such a young girl, is it enough that a man is "clever" to love him? Is respect for a man a reason to love him - to marry him? Does she love Fred, or does she just not want to hurt him? If asked, I think I'd give her the same advice I gave to Dorothea - wait,grow up a little. Choose neither. Mary is a very smart girl. Maybe she will do that without my advice.

I think that Mary will have no one other than Fred. There seems to be true love between Fred and Mary, love which has grown since they were little children.

Love is sweet? Not always. More likely, love is blind. So often we love people who are not in our best interests. But we can't help ourselves.

Marni

What a lot of things this book gives us to think about. I knew there had been a scandal about murdering people to sell the bodies, but never heard about that poor boy with his white mice. How sad.

It was a real problem for doctors and biologists that they had no way to learn anatomy. This was part of the reason that medical knowledge was so backward.

Golly, I found the story of the execution of the murderers of "the Italian boy," as they called him, before a crowd of 30,000. Also, the murderers' confession which describes how they lured the boy and gave him laudunum and killed him by lowering him by rope into a well and drowning him. See link. I could find quite a lot about this on the web once I knew the name of the Italian boy.

http://www.londonancestor.com/bells/1862-burkites.htm

I was off the mark completely with the "white mice"scenario. Thanks to all the researchers for setting me straight

However with the correct explanation comes the Question: Why the analogy to Will? Do they see him as a a naive youngster who will soon be victimized? If Will is a potential victim then who is the victimizer? Is Will dependent on"the kindness of strangers" for his well being?

Is that what Mrs. Cadwallader meant when she used those words for Will? GE has made Mrs. C one of the most insightful people in MM. Perhaps she is privy to things we do not yet know.

Another thougt.... Bulstrode is scared of Raffles. Lydgate is now a cohort of Bulstrode , even though he is not a friend. Lydgates life will be severly impacted if something happens to Bulstrode or his money. Oh, the drama is rising!

Judy

.

Thanks, JOANS P&K, for finding the answer to 'eating his dinners', and the Italian w/ the white mice. I would think, JUDY, that the reference to Ladislaw was to the foreign 'showman' or 'performer' aspect, rather than the potential victim.

DAYTRIPPER, I was amused at your scolding of Eliot of 'abusing' her character, Casaubon. Since the characters are the creation of the writer, surely they must be as the writer envisioned them. They have no other existence! You must write your own story, so you can make the Casaubons more sympathetic, and expose the sorry motives of the heros and heroines. <g>

Babi

Was it Mrs. Cad. who said that? Shame on her. I thought she was smarter than that. But I think here Eliot wanted to show how narrow-minded and prejudiced some of the inhabitants of this small town could be. You all are too nice and sophisticated to understand her.

I think Mrs. Cadwallader is clever and colorful in her assessments of others, but I think her views are narrow and parochial. I don't see her as a deep thinker or a compassionate person. She certainly was right to criticize the union of Casaubon and Dorothea, but I don't think she is able to make an accurate judgment of Will Ladislaw. He is an outsider and, in her view, way too exotic to be assimilated into that society, but that doesn't mean he is unworthy of interest or tolerance. Then again, my track record on these characters isn't good: I thought Casaubon deserved respect, at least, for providing Will with an opportunity for an education, but that was before I found out what he really owed him and what C's own motives where. I thought we should be patient with Rosamond because I thought she really loved Lydgate, but that was before she turned out to be so selfish and dismissive of his professional work. Read and learn!

Oh my, YES!!

I have made so many mistaken calls on these characters I cannot tell you all!!

And now, there is so much we still need to know that I can't wait for all the truth to be out.

But then, the book will be finished, and I don't like that idea at all!

Alliemae

JO:"Then again, my track record on these characters isn't good" That's not you, it's Eliot. She keeps turning these characters around, showing us different aspects. Her own reaction to the characters is mixed -- she has both sympathy and criticism of almost all of them.

ALLIE MAE: we were posting together. I agree -- I want to see what happens, but I will really miss the book when it ends.

Thanks, Joan K, for pointing out Eliot's manipulations, of which I should have been aware by now! Or maybe it isn't manipulations so much as her awareness of how complex we all are ... or most of us.
I think I've read most posts, but if I repeat an idea, that means I've missed something: Fred and Will's uncertain futures (#3 above) both involve love and money. How either will survive economically is still an open question, and whether either will win the adored woman is likewise an unanswered question. (This is the best soap opera I've ever read!) Eliot has created two characters that most of us have hopes for, but if Fred wins Mary, what will happen to poor Farebrother? I don't think Mary was aware of his affection (#4) until the end of that heartbreaking conversation wherein he seems to be a "John Alden" type, delivering a message for someone else that is really his own. I think she is upset when she realizes this:
"When the strange idea flashed across her that his words had reference to himself, she was incredulous, and ashamed of entertaining it. She had never thought that any man could love her except Fred...still less that she could be of any importance to Mr. Farebrother, the cleverest man in her narrow circle.... 'Oh, please stay, and let me give you some tea,...Her eyes filled with tears, for some thing indefinable, something like the resolute suppression of a pain in Mr Farebrother's manner, made her feel suddenly miserable, as she had once felt when she saw her father's hands trembling in a moment of trouble."
Looking back over thw whole scene now makes me think that Farebrother is the one Eliot has planned for Mary. Another strike out????

Thanks, JoanK, Marni and JoanP for the sad and fascinating info re "eating his dinners" and Italian with white mice." I had to click back a few times to discover what I had missed. I don't know why that happens when one has subscribed, but it does.
The street entertainers story reminds me of Fellini's La Strada, the movie about the girl signed over to a travelling entertainer by her poor parents. One of the most affecting films I've ever seen. Anthony Quinn is the "gypsy" who takes her and Fellini's wife plays the role of the little entertainer who falls in love with her captor, despite his brutal ways. I didn't realize when I was watching many, many years ago that it was an instance of a very cruel practice. (Fellini's wife -- Giulina Massina? That's definitely misspelled!)

If it is for you Jo, then I'm striking out too! Well if one more of us strikes out we'll have to retire our side and let GE win!! She sure can write a mystery!! More suspicious liasons than an Agatha Christie!!

Alliemae

A major theme of this novel is "change", political,medical, social, and I think it shows also that as we come to know a person more intimately we change our viewpoint. As if the Author herself is learning as she goes along watching her characters growth, with more and more depth and also context of information, she learning and changing her opinion of her characters. This is really creative writing in my humble opinion. Faith

Jo--I'm so glad you mentioned John Alden (Speak for yourself, John) when referring to Farebrother on his mission to Mary. That's who I thought of too although his last name wouldn't come to mind. Poor Farebrother (has anyone noticed how often that adjective "poor" is used in this novel to refer to just about every character at one time or another?) I'm afraid that Mary's heart belongs to Fred as much as his does to her. Maybe there's another woman for Farebrother hiding in the wings? He seems such a nice man--and so dependable.

Faith--Yes, so much change going on and before long the railroad will make its appearance. These were times of tumultuous change in England. How often it is true that when we come to know someone better, we change our viewpoint. And Eliot certainly is willing to let one set of impressions settle in before she gives us a new set of details. She does a masterful job, I think, taking up one set of characters and then another without managing to lose us all in the process!

Alliemae--I'm going to miss Middlemarch too when it concludes, but we still have almost a third of it left so premature mourning is barred. Lots to go still. And we certainly have to learn what happens to our couples. I am most worried about Lydgate and Rosamond myself. I do not like that woman and I worry that she does not understand her husband at all, nor does she choose to. She is a social climber of the worst sort.

Maryal

p.s. Joan P--Demi, the little Welsh Terrier, was really named Dmitri after Dmitri Karamazov, my daughter's favorite character at the time. We always called him Demi, and I thought of him as half an Airedale so the nickname fit. The old black and tan terrier in England was the forebear of many of the terriers we have today, including the Welsh. Shortly after Demi came to live with us Demi Moore (no relation) hit it big. Odd coincidence.

Oh, I agree, Fai! Creating as she goes along, creative writing, yes! I agree with all that's been said this morning! A superb mystery writer, Alliemae - complete with red herrings, plenty of room to make the wrong assumptions and conclusions from suggestive passages.

Jo, not a strike out yet, I'm not so sure that our Mary will respond to Farebrother's subtle signs of affection as I read over the words you put up this morning... even though it is easy to conclude that Eliot is planning Farebrother for Mary from the many allusions to their mutual respect for one another. Mary might not agree...I see Maryal didn't fall for that either.

"Her eyes filled with tears, for some thing indefinable, something like the resolute suppression of a pain in Mr Farebrother's manner, made her feel suddenly miserable, as she had once felt when she saw her father's hands trembling in a moment of trouble."

When you reread that...especially with the comparison to her father, can't her feelings be read as those of a young girl's reaction to an elder's pain? Let's not tell Fred - we might be getting him upset over nothing...right, Maryal?

JoanK - good thought - Eliot may not be trying to manipulate us at all - "her own reaction to the characters is mixed -- she has both sympathy and criticism of almost all of them." You know, I think the ambivalence, the misinterpretations - are so much like our own . Aren't we often dumbfounded by the unexpected things people say and do? I think Eliot's characters are more REAL than soap opera characters. They are as stunned as we would be at the turn of events. Change, inconsistancy - as Fai says, isn't that what our life is all about? How do we stand it? We are looking for ROMANCE jere, when what we are getting is REALITY. Where's Flora? I know she'll agree with that.

About the Italian carrying mice, aren't you just amazed at the amount of information and literary references found in these pages? Either Eliot has a memory like a steel trap, takes voluminous notes (like Casaubon) or researches heavily as she writes each installment. I'm going to admit that I am really impressed by the aptness of the authors' quotes used as epigrams to the chapters, BUT those Elliot's writes herself - (according to my endnotes, that means ALL of the epigrams that appear without an author's name) - I have great trouble deciphering, even after rereading them a number of times. (Please don't ask me to diagram that sentence!) I'll give an example...the epigram preceding the final chapter in the book - LIII. This is the chapter in which we learn that Bulstrode has purchased Joshua Rigg-Featherstone's home. (Have we seen the last of Rigg, do you suppose?) We also get a glimpse into Bulstrode's past. Can anyone help? Where's Laura? She doesn't take these epigrams lightly. Pray, what is Eliot saying about Bulstrode here?

"It is but a shallow haste which concludeth insincerity from what outsiders call inconsistency - putting a dead mechanism of "ifs" and "therefores" for the living myriad of hidden suckers whereby the belief and the conduct are wrought into mutual sustainment." (!!!?)

ps. Maryal, tell again about Kemper Elizabeth's name? I'm sitting here trying to recall how the little dog got this grand name?

JoanP--I have no idea what that epigraph means, by the way.

Kemper got her name from a ghost who announced to my daughter while we were on our way to pick her up (not altogether sure that she was a she and not a he) that "The puppy's name is Kemper."

I agreed to this name because it would fit either a boy or a girl although now it seems completely female to me. Aren't names funny?

The middle name came one day when my daughter was chastising Kemper for something or other. I heard her say, "Kemper Elizabeth, you stop that right now."

Meanwhile the other little JRT, Benjamin, had no middle name. I didn't think this fair, so I gave him his middle name, which is Douglas.

And Gaela needs a middle name.

Ah, a challenge. I'm going to stick my neck out and give it a try. I will say, tho', I'm not sure who it is referring to.

"It is but a shallow haste which concludeth insincerity from what outsiders call inconsistency - putting a dead mechanism of "ifs" and "therefores" for the living myriad of hidden suckers whereby the belief and the conduct are wrought into mutual sustainment."

What I see here is that many of us, seeing a person behaving in a way that seems to us inconsistent (in our shallow haste), cannot see the many hidden issues pulling upon him/her. Each persons beliefs and conduct must find a middle ground that will sustain all their inner imperatives.

Hmm? I don't know if that helps or only makes it worse!

Babi

Babi, it does help...consider that the epigram is placed at the start of the chapter on Bulstrode. We haven't shown him much empathy - sympathy, have we? Perhaps "in our haste" we haven't considered those issues which force him to live the restricted way he does. I'm not sure why he has spent the money on Featherstone's place, though - that seems to be out of character.

We have a lot more to learn about this man and "the living myriad of hidden suckers" that eat away at him. What terrible secret eats away at him? We know it's connected to Will somehow. I've been thinking of the story of the Italian children on exhibition through no fault of their own. Weren't they signed into slavery by their parents? Did someone sign an agreement that deprived Will of his inheritance - and profit from it? Did Bulstrode have anything to do with that? Do you suppose that's what is eating at him?

Not sure what is meant by the "dead mechanism of the "ifs" and "therefores" ...

O.K. Here is another attempt to explain the passage. I took what seemed like the key ideas and try to wind them into a simpler English.

Shallow Haste: Making too quick a decision based on momentary, superficial facts that tend to make us unable to differentiate between insincerity and inconsistency in a persons outward actions.

Ifs and Therefores: We use the "excuse words of "if and therefore" to get around the hidden traps(suckers) which lay in our way and are inconsistent with our superficial theories.

Moral Imperatives: We have to find a middle way in making our theories meet our beleifs(moral imperatives) so that our conclusions are tempered both by the real facts( and not just a hasty glance at the outward issues relating to the facts) and by what we beleive in.

Mostly I think she is saying :Don't twist the facts to fit what we beleive SHOULd be true because we want it to be so.

Wow, that was good for me. How was it for you?

Judy

I still don't know what it says.

I think it's giving me a headache!

FAITH: “A major theme of this novel is "change", political,medical, social, and I think it shows also that as we come to know a person more intimately we change our viewpoint.”

an excellent point, FAITH. I hadn’t thought of it that way, but you’re right.

BABI: That does make it clearer. The idea that we all have “hidden suckers” in our mind is very interesting. I’ll give a crack at it. I assume by suckers, Eliot means forces that suck our thoughts into certain directions. I see this brain as a labyrinth of hidden forces that pull and tug at our ideas in different directions. The end may be achieving equilibrium, or it may not. Certainly Brooke’s brain is like a perpetual motion machine, with certain fixed ideas (the “dead mechanisms of if and therefore”) and the rest in constant flux. Kind of like the sea washing around “fixed” islands (which may eventually change too, but more slowly).

I think this is making me seasick!

Ha, MARYAL sees the suckers as eating (sucking) away at the brain. Could be.

Well, tomorrow we start a new section that takes us back to an earlier discussion. Those of you who were here in August when we were getting ready to take the train to Middlemarch may remember that we had some fears because of stories of farmers with pickaxes harassing and stopping the trains. We decided that our strategy would be to bring lots of cookies to bribe the farmers to let us go.

Well, here we are. In the next section, the train is going to come, and here come the farmers!! AND NOT A COOKIE IN SIGHT.

I'm sure (almost) that Eliot has made her characters strong enough to deal with this. But just in case, maybe we should all bring cookies with us tomorrow. If we don't need them as bribes, we can always eat them.

I'll bring oatmeal.

Seasick, headaches...yes, now we experience, along with Mr. Bulstrode - his "sickly body, shattered by the agitations he had gone through since that last evening" - (when his stepfather, Raffles appeared on the scene.)

JoanK, the "ifs" and "therefores" DO describe Uncle Brooke's inconsistent train of thought in his brief experience with politiking. (Do you think he will ever try for office again?)

But this particularly troublesome epigram, placed as it is at the start of Chapter LIII - the chapter in which we all glommed on to the news that Bulstrode has some connection to Will's mother - through marriage, and therefore to Will. Something else is going on with Bulstrode, I think, apart from having married and paying Raffles not to reveal the whereabouts of the woman's daughter.

The difficult epigram seems to be describing the anguished state of Bulstrode's mind, beyond the fear of discovery, which Raffle's appearance brings about. Before leaving him in this tortured mental state, it might be good to take a closer look at what motivates the man - his conscience. Can he avoid facing up to the truth of his past deeds any longer? And how can he possibly do that?

Judy, your translation of the epigram works for me...- "Don't twist the facts to fit what we believe should be true because we want it to be so." Is that what Bulstrode has been doing for the past thirty years?

"Ifs" and "Therefores" - the "excuse words," as Judy describes them, which Bulstrode has used to convince himself (until now) that his secret misdeeds were pardoned" -

"Those misdeeds even when committed - had they not been half sanctified by the singleness of his desire to devote himself and all he possessed to the furtherance of the divine scheme?"
So Bulstrode has not been the supreme hypocrite I had imagined him to be...acting-holier-than-thou, while leading a double life. The man seems to have actually believed that as long as his intentions were good, his past sins were forgiven. Do you fault him for his thinking?

Judy's explanation of the "Moral Imperatives" of the epigram -
"We have to find a middle way in making our theories meet our beliefs(moral imperatives) so that our conclusions are tempered both by the real facts and by what we believe in."
"Mr. Bulstrode had aimed at being an eminent Christian." Is Eliot criticizing him? Can a man atone for the sins of his past by dedicating the rest of his life to good works? Is that enough to attain salvation in the strict Christian sense as Bulstrode sees it?

Maybe another question - have there been other questionable "deals" during his time in Middlemarch, which may have been inconsistent with his principles? In other words, does he have the tendency to rationalize his actions with thoughts that eventually he will dedicate the profits to divine works?

Now I'm getting in over my head... would love to know what you learned about Bulstrode in this chapter, even if the epigram gave you a headache.

JoanK please, pass me one of those big COOKIES!

JoanK what do you put in your oatmeal cookies. I also want to bring oatmeal (the only ingredient-oatmealthat let's me justify eating cookies at all)...but I make mine with dried cranberries and dark chocolate chips..what say ye???

Alliemae

Re: "Mr. Bulstrode - his "sickly body, shattered by the agitations he had gone through since that last evening" - (when his stepfather, Raffles appeared on the scene.)"

Raffles is Riggs' stepfather, not Bulstrode's stepfather.

I'm bringing pecan sandies. I don't have to make them and we have millions in the house because my husband is hooked on them. I hate to bake.

Marni

Well I love to watch trains. If I were really in Middlemarch and were really going down to see my first train I would be so excited I would have to dance. I am one of those people who get a lump in the throat when I hear a far away train whistle at night. Don't know why but it really makes me homesick. My first train ride was at about age 14 from Auburn over the summit to Reno and thru the snow sheds over Donner Pass. After that I had many trips over that pass and many others in the Colorado Mountains. Trains and mountains seem much safer to me than automobiles and mountains. So anyway...I will bring Ginger Snaps. faith

OATMEAL COOKIES W/ CRANBERRIES AND DARK CHOCOLATE CHIPS! ALLIEMAE, do let me give you my address, in case you should be baking some for the holidays.

Babi

Faith, I love the train whistle too...at night, lying in bed. When we travelled cross-country last summer, I think I heard the trains every night. We don't hear them here...except in the distance on a summer night when the windows are open.

Marnie, you are right! Of course, Raffles is Rigg's stepfather. But I'm really confused now. Raffles came to Middlemarch to mouch off his stepson's inheritance from Featherstone - and learns that Bulstrode lives here too - a man who sent him off to America to keep him quiet about what he knew of past dealings??? How much of a coincidence is that? Now he has some other source of funds in Middlemarch since his stepson is gone. Another big coincidence - the stepson sold his house and land to ...Bulstrode! Either we are to accept these two events as coincidence or there is more of a relationship between Rigg and Bulstrode that we have yet to learn. Did any of you find this a bit odd?

Marni, it's the rolling and cutting and rolling and cutting that I find so tedious. I like Alliemae's cranberry/semisweet chip variance, too Babi...no cookie cutters. I think I'll try that sometime soon. But you haven't tasted cookies until you try Jo's mother's Molasses Crinkles! You just roll them into balls and the oven does the rest. Maybe if we're lucky, she'll share the family recipe with us! I made them last year but lost the recipe - maybe I ate that too! Yummy!

Yummy! My mouth is watering. I don't like to bake but I love to eat cookies. I don't mind cooking some other things - like I've been asked to make Indian pudding and some pies for Thanksgiving. I've never made Indian pudding before so it should be fun.

It seems like every time I join a group for anything, I'm asked to bake. I just joined the historic society thinking I'd learn about our town and help out with elementary school children. The first thing I'm asked is will I bake for some event - the historic society!

------------------------------------

Re Raffles coming to town. If I recall correctly, I do think Raffles showed up because of Riggs' estate and coincidentally bumped into his old buddy Bulstrode. Sounds like they used to be old pals in cahoots in dirty business. He was the last person in the world Bulstrode expected to see.

Bulstrode definitely has some black deeds to hide. He is feeling really nervous. It certainly is interesting about how he now is the hyprocrital good Christian.

Marni

My attempt at the epigram:

The whole part after the dash (“putting a dead mechanism…mutual sustainment”) is a definition of inconsistency. Hold that thought…

I think “outsiders” are us readers. Eliot is warning us readers of our own “shallow haste” in trying to determine what is going on between Raffles and Bulstrode. She is saying don’t be hasty with our conclusions. We shouldn’t conclude insincerity (but about what?).

The “’ifs’ and ‘therefores’” are the conditions upon which the relationship between Bulstrode and Raffles is based.

“Belief” and “conduct” have something to do with Bulstrode believing he can control Raffles conduct by paying him money and thereby intertwining their lives into “mutual sustainment.” In other words, Bulstrode depends on Raffles to keep quiet and Raffles depends on Bulstrode for money. They have a symbiotic relationship, each dependent on the other.

So, to put it altogether, we readers should not be hasty in judging the relationship between Bulstrode and Raffles since we don’t fully understand it.

That’s my story, and I’m sticking to it! LOL! Only to be proven wrong in future chapters, I’m sure.

I think Babi’s and Judys’ explanations dovetail with mine. I think we are on the right track.

Onward with my reading…

I’ll bring chocolate chip cookies!

Bad associations with trains...grew up in N.Y.....subways....lived near a freight yard...noiseeeeeeeeeeee not whistles....traveled from Moscow to St Petersberg in a train so old it rattled all the way..conductor brought bottle of Vodka every hour.....getting sleepy ..very sleepy.... need some cookies.... any kind of cookies...send me your extras......

Judy

Yes, JUDY, cookie power an cure everything. I defer to oatmeal cookies with cranberry and chocolate chips. It sounds better tham mine. I'll bring brownies.

Amazing -- I live near train tracks, but don't often hear then. But as I was reading the comments about trains, I heard them, and am still hearing them as I write. I love to listen at night, when I'm lying in bed.

Eliot tells us that the train will have a great effect on some of our characters lives. I wonder who? Will Fred become a train engineer? Will it bring more people from the Past (with a capital P) to Middlemarch? Remember the real train's bridge collapsed, will that be part of the story? Eliot does keep us hanging.

Yes, Bulstrode is a lot more interesting than we thought. Is he genuinely trying to reform? Or is he a hypocrite? I can't help feeling that when we find out his secret it will blow the plot wide open.

I do wish Eliot would put in material to let us know how much time has passed between books. Fred just went away to get his degree, and here he is back already. We just heard that Rosamund was pregnant, now someone casually mentions that she lost the baby. I expect Will to come wandering back, an established lawyer any minute. It confuses me.

Re: "Will Fred become a train engineer?"

I'm falling off my chair I'm laughing so hard!

Marni

Me too! HAHAHA! At least it's something practical! But will poor Fred have time to practice the flute?
Molasses cookies: not a family recipe, but one off the back of a molasses jar! I lost mine and my friend Meg replaced it with hers, so now I'm not sure if I shared the jar one or the Meg one! I made some last week, and they are all gone, or I'd share right now. Let me do a bit more research and I'll share again. Right now I'm eating store-bought "pumpkin gobs," and they taste good to me!
"dead mechanisms of "ifs" and "therefores" has begun to sound like and indictment of a strictly logical approach to understanding human beings, like trying to make everything fit a syllogism. The human heart and human impulses aren't logic driven, she may be saying.
Time for my final stab in the dark before we travel on: Bulstrode was married to ... was it Aunt Julia? Relative of Casaubon's who married badly and had a child (Sarah?)...Sarah Ladislaw, who married an artist (Ladislaw) and became the mother of Will? That would mean B. fathered two children, Sarah and Riggs, by the same woman, or two? Raffles took up with one of those women discarded by Bulstrode, so he has something on him: he is a deserter of wife and child ... or wives and children.

Good morning! Look at all the cookies in here - before breakfast!!! Please, Faith, bring in some oatmeal before I go into sugar shock!

Oh, such good thinking went on in here last night while I was lying in bed trying to hear the train whistles! Your posts stopped me dead in my tracks! Marnie thinks too that Bulstrode has some real "black deeds" to hide...as he plays the "hypocrital good Christian".

Followed by our epigramologist, Laura, who sees Eliot "warning us that readers should not be hasty in judging the relationship between Bulstrode and Raffles since we don’t fully understand it."

And Jo concurs..."The human heart and human impulses aren't logic driven. Let's not indict the man as a hypocrite until we learn the workings of his heart.

Jo...If really Bulstrode fathered two children, Sarah and Rigg, then Raffles really has a big secret to keep - that his stepson and Bulstrode's son,(Joshua Rigg) AND Sarah Ladislaw are brother and sister!!! Maybe there is more than one fortune the poor Italian street boy has been denied. One more question - the relationship between Peter Featherstone and Rigg? Why did he leave Rigg his estate? And then why did Rigg turn over the Featherstone estate to Bulstrode, (his father?)

I agree. JoanK, the true Bulstrode story could blow the plot wide open, any way it turns out... And money will no longer be an issue between Will and Dorothea!

Cannot wait for the new installment to come out. Folks must have been lined up like they do for Harry Potter! But look, it's here! Let's see how the young widow is doing out at Lowick Manor all alone in the house full of Casaubon's mountains of notebooks...Is she still wearing her widow's cap or did she leave it off back at Celia's?

The finding itself is an accident although I'm pretty sure that Raffles came to Middlemarch the second time to find out more about his address.

If you look toward the end of Chap XLI, you will see that Raffles takes a folded sheet from the fender (of the fireplace, I assume) in order to wedge his wobbly flask against his person. He does not know what this paper is yet because it is folded. The final sentence of the chapter is-- "The paper with which he had wedged it was a letter signed Nicholas Bulstrode, but Raffles was not likely to disturb it from its present useful position."

Sometime when we're not looking, Raffles opens the letter. His eyes hit upon the signature of a man he knows. He returns to Middlemarch, probably to question is stepson, Riggs, but happens upon Bulstrode himself. Bulstrode's address, on the letter, wasn't specific enough to tell Raffles where he lived.

Furthermore, let's not get too confused here.

Riggs Featherstone is the "natural" (illegitimate) son of Featherstone.

And whatever Bulstrode's sin of the past is, it isn't fathering Will or his mother. Bulstrode marries a woman older than himself. She already has a daughter, Sarah. Sarah marries someone whose last name is Ladislaw and has a child. And disappears. That's all we know at present.

So far as we know Bulstrode has no children.

Riggs Featherstone has sold Stone Court and is off to the city to follow his dream of becoming a moneychanger. Perhaps he will reappear, but I somehow doubt it.

Maryal

Maryal: That's right! I totally forgot Bulstrode's name was on that piece of paper Raffles walked off with!

I had been thinking that Bulstrode had no children. But, someone mentioned that he had a child... a....daughter? Is that his current wife's child from a previous marriage? My memory is doing some wild flips.

Marni

Marnie, Ellen Bulstrode is one of Bulstrode's children from his present marriage. She was a classmate of Rosamond...Rosamond's cousin. You'll remember when Fred was sick Rosamond told her mother to call Lydgate, since he had cured Ellen. I don't think she was Bulstrode's only child, either, but can't remember the others.

It's STILL a big coincidence that Raffles knew BOTH Rigg (no "s") and Bulstrode from former dealings, don't you think? Just a coincidence, or is there some connection between Rigg and Bulstrode, as Jo is guessing?.

We don't know a lot of things...is it an established fact that Joshua Rigg was Featherstone's illegitimate son or was this just Middlemarch rumor when the will was read? Eliot will reveal all (I hope) in future installments. We just need to be patient - not one of my virtues, I'm afraid.

Thanks, JoanP! Ellen, that's right.

Re: "is there some connection between Rigg and Bulstrode, as Jo is guessing?."

There may be a connection. Bulstrode and Raffles seem to have been in cahoots in the past. Riggs is Raffles' stepson. Bulstrode, therefore, may have known Raffles' family (wife and stepson.) We don't know this, but it's possible. So, Bulstrode and Riggs may have known each other years before.

However, I don't recall seeing Bulstrode nervous around Riggs the way he is nervous around Raffles. So, possibly Riggs didn't know Bulstrode in the past, or he didn't know about any black deeds Bulstrode was involved in. Riggs does seem to know that Raffles was involved in evil doings because he seems to hate him.

Marni

"to sit like a model for Saint Catherine looking rapturously at Celia's baby would not do for many hours in the day, and to remain in that momentous babe's presence.......to an aunt who does not recognize her infant nephew as Bouddha....."

I love Eliot's description of how D. felt around new mother Celia always gushing over baby. Eliot must have felt like this around friends who were new mothers, not having children of her own.

And Sir James.....'And if she had had a baby, it never could have been such a dear as Arthur. Could it, James?' 'Not if it had been like Casaubon,' said Sir James....holding a strictly private opinion as to the perfections of his first-born."

Just too funny!

2. Isn't it strange that Will, a newpaperman, has not heard a word of the codicil to Casaubon's will?

It does sound as though the entire town should quickly know about it because Celia told Mrs. Cadwallader, of all people.

Mrs. Cadwallader tells her husband:"Celia told me all about the will at the beginning, without any asking of mine." He responds: "Yes, yes; but they want the thing hushed up, and I understand that the young fellow is going out of the neighborhood."

Interesting that "they" (Celia and Sir James?) want the codicil business and any possible scandal about Will and D. to be hushed up, but Celia tells the town gossip about it. Celia must really have wanted it to get around. We see little digs here and there that Celia makes towards her sister.

Will doesn't seem the type to spend time gossiping, though. He's been busy with politics and with figuring out what to do for his future. Now, he is no longer a newspaperman, so he is not hunting around for news.

Marni

1. Why did Dorothea return to live at Lowick? Did she have other options?

There were a number of reasons, such as being tired of having to adore little Arthur. But, the most important reason was to see Will Ladislaw. She longed to see him. D., "remembering what Lydgate had told her about Will Ladislaw and little Miss Noble, she counted on Will's coming to Lowick to see the Farebrother family." There was no way she'd see him at her sister's, although she was very welcome, encouraged to stay there.

There's something interesting in the telling of this story in chpt 53. Will has come to Lowick to say goodby to D. and to see if she will be interested in his return as a man of means. D., now fully realizing she loves him, believes that Will apparently just thinks of her as a friend. (Oh, the irony!)

D. says to Will: "Yes, it must be right for you to do as you say. I shall be very happy when I hear that you have made your value felt. But you must have patience. It will perhaps be a long while."

Then the following: "Will never quite knew how it was that he saved himself from falling down at her feet, when the 'long while' came forth with its gentle tremor. He used to say that the horrible hue and surface of her crape dress was most likely the sufficient controlling force."

He used to say......Doesn't this sound like Eliot is telling this story as if the the narrator knows Will personally and is describing an event that occurred a long while in the past?

This seems like a change in narration and time to me. It surprised me.

Marni

Marni writes, just above,

"Will never quite knew how it was that he saved himself from falling down at her feet, when the 'long while' came forth with its gentle tremor. He used to say that the horrible hue and surface of her crape dress was most likely the sufficient controlling force."

He used to say......Doesn't this sound like Eliot is telling this story as if the the narrator knows Will personally and is describing an event that occurred a long while in the past?

This seems like a change in narration and time to me. It surprised me.

Watch out, Marni. I think you may be turning into me. The use of the verb tense as well as the narrator sounding as if she knew Will at some point is ODD, isn't it? I wonder if "used to say" is used in a somewhat different sense here. Or are we skipping ahead into the future with Will thinking back to this event?

Yikes.

I apologize for not remembering the Bulstrode daughter. I remember her now because Mrs. Bulstrode had her eye on Lydgate for her I think. Have we ever actually "met" her or has she only been spoken of?

Maryal

I remember Mrs Bulstrode daughter and her wish for Lydgate as a suitor. I think she was named Sarah. If that is correct I cant find out with that search the text thing above. It doesn't work for me. I don't know how to use it I think.

Dorothea seems really modern to me. Perhaps we haven't changed all that much in these hundred +years. Dorothea must face now societies expectations of her much as she had to face Casaubon expectations of marriage. Yet she will not believe what social norms tell her;that she would be unable to get by without a mans help, or a wiser persons guidance. She has begun to shake off C's influence and leave his life work behind.

Now she also rejects the idea that she cant live alone. She knows in her heart that she can. She gives in to gender role expectations only so far and no further.She decides to ask Garth for his assistance in achieving her old goals of public improvements. But she is not happy yet. Perhaps she never will be. If she and Will could communicate their real feelings it would be save lots of time. As it is she must now wait again and grieve Wills departure. faith

Yum, yum, what a feast. Pardon me if I talk with my mouth full of cookies. It looks like we won’t need them for ammunition after all, thanks to Fred.

MARNI: “remembering what Lydgate had told her about Will Ladislaw and little Miss Noble, she counted on Will's coming to Lowick to see the Farebrother family."

This confused me. I thought that Lowick was the name of the house where C. lived. If Farebrother is living there now, (as I guess he should be – don’t clergymen get the use of the house along with the “living”? They do in Jane Austen.) then what is Dorothea doing there? That can’t be right. Lowick must be the name of the parish, and Farebrother must get a house near C.’s. Is anyone else confused?

“Will used to say” Yes, that is odd. It gives the impression that these events later turned into family stories that were told over and over. I see Will and D. as old marrieds telling there children over and over. (Of course, it could also be Will as a pathetic drunkard in the pub, telling over and over how he missed his chance at love).

FAITH: D. seems really modern to me, too. Eliot was certainly a woman ahead of her time.

D. has really changed. Marriage didn’t bring her any of the things she thought it would, but it did make her grow up. The mature d. is well capable of living by herself. We’ll see if she is allowed to do so. There was a sentence about writing to a Mrs. so-and-so to come and work as a companion to D. Presumably, there’s no work that’s needed, but having another “gentlewoman of reduced means” in the house makes D. respectable. Keep your fingers crossed: I’m still looking for someone for Farebrother.

Joan, I think the name of the Manor house is Lowick Manor. That's where Dorothea lives. The Farebrothers live in the Lowick Parsonage. They all live in Lowick parish. I think.

"He used to say that the horrible hue and surface of her crape dress was most likely the sufficient controlling force."

Marni, I read right over that sentence and never noticed the "used to say"...it does sound as if he is telling this story years afterwards, doesn't it? Trying to explain why he couldn't blurt out his feelings for her - to their children, the sight of the mourning clothes a reminder that she had just lost her husband, a grieving widow. He has no idea how she has changed since learning of the codicil and her husband's lack of feeling or caring for her.

So Dorothea is back and apparently still in her mourning attire, if not in actual mourning for that bird of a husband. He really had it in for Will, didn't he? I still think he had a reason other than jealousy for wanting to keep him from the family estate. He's acted very strangely towards Will, long before he showed interest in Dorothea in Rome.

What will Dorothea do with her time alone at Lowick? Obviously she won't be spending it on her husband's notebooks. That was all she did before he died! I thought that was delicious - the little note she left alongside his own with the index to his work. So private, yet so satisfying. I'll bet she had a good night's sleep after that. I'm not sure what she will do with Caleb Garth, Fai. Did you understand that? She seems to be planning some sort of a community where everyone works and everyone is happy. What is that about?

Maybe she will get to know Farebrother, JoanK - can we pair up these two?

I don't think Celia at all intended any harm to her sister when she chattered about the will to Mrs. Cadwallader. Celia is sweet, but not too bright. Mrs. Cadwallader is a longstanding familiar, and Celia probably considers her as one of the 'inner circle' to whom anything may be said. Also, I think her new-found confidence as the mother of the perfect baby is causing her to speak her mind more freely.

I must applaud that most excellent woman, Mrs. Susan Garth. "She was vexed and disappointed, but she was bent on abstaining from useless words." Among womankind, that is a most rare virtue!

Babi

Faith, because I think the SEARCH THE TEXT option - the second link listed in the "Related Links" in the heading - is such a valuable tool. I use it more often than I can tell you - and often wonder if any of the rest of you are using it and finding it useful too.

Since you express concern you might not be using it right, let me try to explain it to you.

~ First, click the link in this post (or the one in the heading: SEARCH THE TEXT.

Look for the "What would you like to search for?" box and type in your search word. If you want to search for "Sarah", type that in this box. You must use a capital letter as the box is case-sensitive. "sarah" will not work.

~ To start the search hit the button that says"Press this button to submit the query: SUBMIT.

~ Try it - submit Sarah and you will see this page:
Middlemarch - Chapter 53.

"I did have another look after Sarah again, though I didn't tell...

Middlemarch - Chapter 60.

name Sarah Dunkirk?" But Lord! Sarah would have known nothing about it -- a dashing...

Middlemarch - Chapter 61.

"I am told that your mother's name was Sarah Dunkirk, and
You don't see "Sarah Bulstrode". Because Bulstrode's daughter's name was Ellen. Try the search with Ellen's name and you get:
Middlemarch - Chapter 26.

"...cured Ellen Bulstrode. They say he cures every one."

Middlemarch - Chapter 74.

"...brought up Kate and Ellen. You may think how hard it will be..."

The really neat thing is that the search brings you those lines in red font - they are links and if you click them, they take you right to the passage in the chapter. No more scanning through the text looking for something you remember reading. Oh, something else, and this is important. The search thing is spelling sensitive too. If you type in "Riggs" you will come up empty, nothing found. You've got to spell his name exactly as Eliot does - Joshua Rigg - no "s"

I hope this helps at least one of you. I can't tell you how much time it saves me. Of course it won't work by clicking the links in this post...try it here and let me know how you do - SEARCH THE TEXT

Babi, Eliot seems to have made a point " in describing Celia's behavior spreading the word of the codicil. Wouldn't you think she'd want to keep a thing like that quiet for her sister's sake? It's almost as if Eliot is comparing her loose lips to Susan Garth's tight lips. Celia does not share this virtue which you and Eliot both admire. She may be sweet and doting mother, but I got the idea from the beginning that Eliot has little regard for this character...and is portraying her as more saccharine than sugar sweet. I continue to marvel at how we view each character differently -depending on which page we are on!

Sir James seems desparate to keep Dorothea from returning to Lowick - is that a bit of sarcasm I detected directed at Celia's adoration of the baby -

"Sir James was much pained, and offered that they should all migrate to Cheltenham for a few months with the sacred ark, otherwise called a cradle..."

That's not the first time he has sounded as if he is tired of hearing about the baby - his baby. Is it Celia who is causing such a reaction with the doting, or is it because Sir James is comparing her to Dorothea? Poor Celia. She can't win!

Thanks, JoanP, for the help with SEARCH TEXT. It helped me! Scrambled eggs for brains, here. I forgot that Rigg is supposed to be Featherstone's "love child," which amazes me as much as it did Fred at the reading of the will. At some point, Featherstone wanted him to control his estate. What threw me was the recognition and tension between Raffles and Bulstrode. Clearly they know each other, to B's discomfort. Raffles is Rigg's stepfather, and Raffles knows that Bulstrode was connected to some old woman that they both knew, and the woman's daughter Sarah is Bulstrode's stepdaughter. I assume then his only natural child is Ellen, but still he has guilt feelings about the people in his past that Raffles knows. Is there a connection between Rigg and Bulstrode, or is it a coincidence that Raffles knows them both and they have nothing to do with each other?
Anyway, in chapter 53 (thanks again JP!) Raffles remembers Sarah's married name: LADISLAW. That's why I think she's Will's mother, and as some of you have noted, there's a chance he won't ever need Dorothea's money. That means that Casaubon has a convoluted connection to Bulstrode, too, and that's why I was thinking that his Aunt Julia,the woman who married badly, may have been the woman connected with Bulstrode.
In doing crossword puzzle research, I found that LADISLAW is one word used as a substitute for ARTIST. Don't know if it's considered a synonym in another language.

"I did have another look after Sarah again, though I didn't tell you; I'd a tender conscience about that pretty young woman. I didn't find her, but I found out her husband's name, and I made a note of it. But hang it, I lost my pocket-book. ... However, if I hear of her and her family, you shall know, Nick. You'd like to do something for her, now she's your step-daughter." "Doubtless," said Mr Bulstrode, with the usual steady look of his light-grey eyes; "though that might reduce my power of assisting you."
(Bulstrode leaves the room.) "But what the deuce / was / the name?" (Raffles) presently said, half aloud, scratching his head, and wrinkling his brows.... "It began with L; it was almost all l's, I fancy," he went on, with a sense that he was getting hold of the slippery name. ... After all, however, there was a dull space of time which needed relieving with bread and cheese and ale, and when he was seated alone with these resources in the wainscoated parlour, he suddenly slapped his knee, and exclaimed, "Ladislaw!" That action of memory which he had tried to set going, and had abandoned in despair, had suddenly completed itself without conscious effort ...."

I still think Sir James has not gotten over D. completely. It comes out in various ways. He's almost overprotective. He's extremely angry about the codicil in the will. He wants Will to move away. Now, in chpt 55, when Celia takes D.'s widow's cap off so her curls fall down over her shoulders, Sir James comes in, looks at D. and says, "Ah!" Then he gets irritated when Mrs. Cadwallader suggests D. should get married again within the year. "I think the subject of our conversation is very ill-chosen," said Sir James, with a look of disgust. " Suppose we change it."

"To his secret feeling there was something repulsive in a woman's second marriage, and no match would prevent him from feeling it a sort of desecration for Dorothea." (She's 21.) Sir James has D. up there on the pedestal, too.

------------------------------------

Meanwhile, D. is convinced she will never marry again. She's definitely depressed. This sounds rather pathetic:

D. says, "I should like to take a great deal of land, and drain it, and make a little colony, where everybody should work, and all the work should be done well. I should know every one of the people and be their friend." Sounds like she's planning a little socialist colony. Pretty idealistic. And she will be everyone's friend. This is sad.

Wow, maybe D. is really going to become a saint! Caleb Garth now thinks her voice reminds him of "bits in the Messiah." Will and artist friend saw D. as the Madonna in the museum in Rome. Sir James wants her to remain chaste forever more.

Is she going to be another Saint Theresa? Somehow, I doubt it.

Fred, still unemployed and pondering his future comes trotting along on his horse in chpt 54, "seeing after some greyhounds" for his father. Ah, Fred, Fred, Fred, nothing's changed. But, wait! We see another side of Fred - Fred, the hero! Fred comes to the rescue of Caleb's assistance who has been knocked to the ground by the laborers who are angry about the railroad coming. Fred charges the men "suddenly enough to throw their chase into confusion. He pursuues the group "in a zigzag, and cutting right and left with his whip." Then Fred says he'll fight them all in turn, feeling confident of his boxing prowess. As Fred puts it: "No knowing what might have happened if the cavalry had not come up in time." Huzzah!!

Fred gets a job out of this when he vigorously helps Caleb Garth at his work for awhile after this episode. They talk and Caleb offers him a job which Fred accepts. Caleb is "determined to take him and make a man of him." He pledges to God to help Fred. "...that young man's soul is in my hand; and I'll do the best I can for him, so help me God!" Fred is pretty darn lucky.

It's interesting to see the difference in parental reactions when they find out about Fred's new job and Fred and Mary's relationship.

Mary Garth cries for awhle when she realizes Fred and Mary are serious. She thinks Mr. Farebrother is worth 20 Freds.

Mrs. Vincy cries when she finds out about Fred and Mary for another reason. She thinks her life will "henceforth be spoiled by a perpetual infusion of Garths and their ways, and that her darling boy, with his beautiful face and stylish air 'beyond anybody else's son in Middlemarch,' would be sure to get like that family in plainness of appearance and carelessness about his clothes." Mrs. Vincy surely knows what is important in life.

And finally, Fred's father tells Fred he washes his hands of him.

So, what do you think? Will Fred make it as Caleb Garth's assistant, working in dirt and at a desk in an office? (It seems he can barely write!) Will he be able to stay away from gambling? Will he stick with it?

Marni

Chapter LVIII The scene between Tertius and Rosamond is one of the most dramatic in the book. I will attempt to answer two parts of Question # 6.First "What has Lydgate learned of the perfect woman he married? " I will quote first from the text and comment later:

"..he secretly wondered over the tenacity of this mild creature. There was gathering within him an amazed sense of his powerlessness over Rosamond. His superior knowledge and mental force, instead of being, as he had imagined, a shrine to consult on all occasions, was simply set aside on every practical occasion".

"...and,above all, bearing without betrayal of bitterness to look through less and less interfering illusion at the blank unreflecting surface her mind presented to his ardor for the more impersonal ends of his professionn and his scientific study, an ardor which he had fancied that the ideal wife must somehow worship as sublime, though not in the least knowing why."

Lydgate has come face to face with reality of who his wife is. I had hoped a baby would give them a common interest and goal. However GE withdrew that possibility to make crystal clear how mismatched these two were. Their goals are widely divergent and their knowledge of each other before the marriage was superficial and short lived. Rosamond is very narcissistic and doesn't even seem to mourn greatly over the loss of her child. Going riding while pregnant is really tempting fate. R did it to impress an empty head who, like herself, was good looking and well mannered.

Part two:"Do you think she would murder him if she wearied of him?"

In the book L thinks"Would she kill me because I wearied her? " and then"It is the way with all women".He continues to contemplate and thinks of Dorothea who is very different. Lydgate had mistaken the"sylph like frame of R. as the sign of a ready intelligent sensitivity".

No I don't think R would outright murder L. However if she wearied of him(Because he becomes too poor or too busy to play with her)she would find a way to rid herself of him. There are many ways of destroying a person without actually committing murder.

Juidy

Thanks for those instructions Joanp it worked great now that I did it right. I have no idea what I did wrong before. I am usually pretty good at boolean searches. Here I stuck to testing the word Rig at your suggestion. So maybe I will have luck with this when I need it again.

I am thinking that Dorothea will be trying to "create a pure and ethical society" in her little drained marsh. This is a little different than a communist society, more likely a "religious" or "cult" type of community. There were a lot of them in the middle 1800's. It hasn't appeared yet as I have only read Chapter 57 and must hi me to the next pages now. Faith

Faith, I'm so glad the SEARCH link worked for you - and you too, Jo. It's such a help, I'm happy that you are able to use it.

Really, Faith? A "religious" or "cult" type of community - these were common in the 1800's? I would love to learn more. I don't think you'll find much more in these chapters than what Marni wrote about..."a great deal of land, and drain it, and make a little colony, where everybody should work, and all the work should be done well." It doesn't sound religious, but would love to know more of the type you describe. Caleb would be happy to subsribe to such a plan for a place for people who take pride in hard work. It doesn't sound very practical, but Dorothea has the land, the time...it was her land that Caleb was measuring to sell for her to the Railroad when the farmers attacked the railroad men. It never occurred to me that Dorothea was planning a religious colony, but a working colony didn't make much sense either. We know that the tenants of Lowick are content with their life. The coming of the railway threatens to disturb their peaceful existence.

Fred happy working on the land? I'm not sure of that, Marni. He seems to want to OWN land but I'm not sure about the manual labor? Getting those white pleated trousers muddy two days in a row, I don't think so. More than anything he wants to be able to tell Mary that he has a job with her father. Somehow, I don't see this working out for our Fred. He does impress Mary's father though, doesn't he? The funny part of this is that Fred sees himself working the land, yet Caleb places him at a desk job! And he can't even write! Caleb insists he learn. Perhaps Mary will teach him - NO, wait, Her mother is the teacher! She could teach her future son-in-law to write legibly! Why does Susan Garth cry when she realizes that Caleb intends to groom Fred so that he will be a worthy husband for her daughter? Did you see evidence of her pride? Is she crying for Mary? Does she know Mary's feelings from mother/daughter talks?

I think that the title "The Widow and the Wife" can apply to a number of the women in Book Six. Dorothea's friends are eager to see her a wife though she has been a widow for only a few months. I made a note of something Mrs. Cadwallader said to her husband when he counselled they let Mrs. Casaubon choose for herself:

"A woman's choice usually means taking the only man she can get."

Is this an accurate observation for the times? Does Mary have a choice? Does she feel as if she has a choice?

And what will become of Dorothea? I'm beginning to despair that Dorothea and Will will never be able to speak directly to one another. Will he really leave for good without getting the facts? I can't imagine why he hasn't heard a word of the codicil yet, if Celia has told everyone in earshot about it. And then there are the servants. Quite a news network there too.

Judy, the Lydgates seem preoccupied with their own problems. It seems that Will would have heard about the codicil at the Lydgates' as he spends so much time there. More on their lack of communication later when we catch up with you!

MARNI: yes, we see Fred here exhibiting the traits his public school education taught him: bravery, leadership, willingness to accept a challenge, even boxing skills. The bad handwriting is also due to his education – he was taught to be superior to such details as writing clearly. Many British novels contain jokes to the effect that the British upper class can’t read or write. Caleb will knock that out of him.

Mrs Garth doesn’t think Fred is good enough for Mary, and Mrs. Vincy doesn’t think that Mary is good enough for Fred. That’s very funny. And typical of many in-laws. I don’t see the Garth's and the Vincy’s ever becoming friends, do you?

The scene between Rosamund and Lydgate is dramatic and very sad, as they both realize that there ideas and dreams of each other have been false.

There is no excuse for Rosamund, who is so lost in selfish dreams of trivial things that she put her child’s life in danger and then refused to take responsibility for it. I don’t think she would have made a good mother at all. Celia may be silly and boring to others in her doting on her baby, but we don’t have to worry that he will be neglected. Spoiled, maybe!

Interesting that neither Lydgate or Rosamund seem to feel that she has any responsibility for their financial situation, either. She is still being treated like the spoiled child she is, with L. hiding the problems from her until he can’t avoid it any longer. Then he suddenly says in effect “you have to grow up tonight, because they’re coming to appraise our furniture tomorrow.”. I can see why L. put this off, but in fairness, he really should have given her more time and warning. Not that I think she’s going to grow up.

I did some research on the Utopian Communities of 19th century England aaaaaaaaand the material nicely dovetail with what Dorothea has been talking about since the beginning of the book. She has not mentioned the theorists behind this popular movement anso I for one missed the idea completely.

Communalism in the early 1800s was second only to the 1960s as the most prolific period of communal formation. The widespread social and economic upheaval of the industrial revolution had brought to the lives of ordinary workers a great upheaval.They swelled the ranks of radical Protestant sects who preached communalism. The theory was also put forth by a new breed of radicals known as the Utopian Socialists. Men such as Robert Owen, Charles Fourier and Etienne cabot were the first to challenge and present alternatives to the conditions of the working class.

THe ultimate goal of the Utopian Socialists was a harmonious society governed by cooperation rather than competition. It was the basis of human associationwhich would nurture harmony and be the vehicle for acheiving it.

In comon with Literary utopias, configuration of space was central to their ideas; design of the communities was a carefully planned balance between agricultural and industrial production, organised primarily to meet the needs of the inhabitants.

GE was obviously aware of this movement and used her heroine to tell us about the subject.

Judy

To add to what Judy wrote above--Utopian communities were present here in the United States in the 19th century.

For example, Bronson Alcott, father of Louisa May, founded Fruitlands. Ultimatimately, it was a failure but Louisa had fond memories of living there.

Another example of a more famous commune, ie. community project, this one combining the thinker and the worker was Brook Farm in Massachusetts. It was operational from 1841-1847. Nathaniel Hawthorne spent six months there in 1841. Later, he wrote The Blithedale Romance, based on some of his experiences there. The idealistic agenda of this commune was that people would work on the land during the day and relax and have intellectual discussions and communal meals in the evening.

There were a number of other such communities, none of them successful but some of them involving famous people. In this country the movement grew out of Transcendentalism.

Maryal

The few months between June of 1843 and January of 1844 were some of the most important of Amos Bronson Alcott’s life. These were the months he and his family spent living in a utopian community he had cofounded to enable himself and his followers to create an example of perfect Transcendental living.

The example for this “new Eden” came while Alcott was in England during the summer of 1842. After the Temple School failed, Ralph Waldo Emerson gave Alcott the money he needed to travel to England. There he saw and admired the work of a group of teachers and philosophers, among them Charles Lane and Henry Gardner Wright. These men were running a school which was based on many of Alcott’s ideas and, in fact, named after him—the Alcott House. Like Alcott, the English reformers had begun as educators, but once they found that society restrained individual development, they too became critics of institutions. The English reformers became communists in property (for all property belonged to God), anarchists in government, free lovers in marriage, and vegetarians in diet. In everything, they aimed at absolute freedom from instituted authority....."

http://www.alcott.net/alcott/home/fruitlands.html

I can’t seem to get my reading done this week --- argh! Consequently, I am trying a different approach to the discussion until I complete this week’s reading. I am going to just write my opinions to the questions for which I have completed the reading, without reading everyone else’s. Here goes…

I am glad that Dorothea left Celia’s house and returned to Lowick. Celia was driving me nuts being so absorbed in the baby at the expense of her sister, so I know it couldn’t have been good for Dorothea. I was surprised to read that Dorothea has no intention to remarry though. Hmmm…we’ll see.

I am not surprised that Will has not heard about the codicil to the will. The communication network in Middlemarch, while informal, is highly organized/structured (not sure those are the right words). People don’t want him to know, so he doesn’t know.

Will and Dorothea are such different people, I am beginning to think that they will never be on the same page, so to speak. I don’t see them with much of a future.

Off to read some more…

I think Will and Dorothea have much in common. We don't always see it directly when they are together in the book, but we hear of it through Eliot.

Will and D. have had long talks together and enjoy each other's company immensely. For instance, on her honeymoon, D. disliked Rome and its art and thought it wasn't something really needed for the good of people. Her husband made Rome boring for her and she didn't know much about its art or history. Once Will explained things to her about art in Rome, she began to enjoy her surroundings and get into it. He brought it alive for her.

They each are young, intelligent, witty, intellectual, idealistic, independent (now), strong-willed, and have a sense of humor.

One important thing they have in common is that whatever they do, they don't want to hurt anyone; they both want to do good for society and to do something meaningful.

Marni

I agree with Marni that Will and Dorothea are suited to each other but may become "star crossed lovers".

The thing that they have in common is a lack of meanness and vindictiveness in their personalities. Not only do they want to do good they find it well nigh impossible to do wrong.

Perhaps GE is saying that good people are not necessarily the happiest people. They are willing to submerge their happiness for anothers good as we saw so sadly with D and Causabon.

I think that we, the readers, would like them to be together but I doubt wether GE is going to allow that without them jumping many hurdles. Even then I wouldn't bet on it.

Judy

Oh, Judy, say it ain't so!

You know, as to the question of why Will had not heard of the codicil, I would have been surprised if he had. After all, who would bring up the subject in his presence? Very bad form, you know; simply isn't done!

Fred is, of course, terribly embarassed to learn that he has asked a man who also loves Mary to be his emissary to her. Quite unlike Mr. Fairbrother, however, young Fred is not in the least prepared to sacrifice his own hopes. Pert. to Q. 4,:Is Fred convinced that there is no one else for her but him?,------"..notwithstanding what Mary had said to him, Fred could not help feeling he had a rival: it was a new consciousness, and he objected to it extremely, not being in the least ready to give up Mary for her good, being ready rather to fight for her with any man whatsoever."

Babi

Oh my! I hope by tomorrow evening I will be caught up. At that time I shall return.

JUDY: the information on communal societies is very interesting. Could you please cite your source.

When I lived in Israel, I taught on a kibbutz (although I didn’t live there).. This has been my only contact with people living in such an idealistic community. It was very interesting. It seemed to me that such a life was very good for some people – they really thrived, but very bad for others. I probably would have been one of the “others”. The closeness and support that the kibbutz gave was balanced by the fact that every decision that one made had to be approved by the group. It would have driven me nuts.

LAURA: Celia was driving you nuts? You weren’t the only one. (That’s why we have a separate Grandparents Discussion in Seniornet – so that we doters won’t drive everyone else nuts. The disadvantage is that you have to listen to others talking about their grands who, of course, aren’t nearly as cute and interesting as mine!)

Yes, Will is not in the “in” group – he only hears the gossip people want him to. And BABI is right – very bad form to tell him. Want to try to guess whether he learns and if so, how?

MARNI and JUDY: you mentioned two things that I think are important: Will and D. both have a sense of humor, and neither wants to hurt anyone. Actually, I think Will stimulates the sense of humor in D. – she doesn’t seem to have much of one when he isn’t around.

BABI: I’m sort of glad Fred is willing to fight for Mary. It would be too much if both Fred and Mr. F. gave her up for the other.

Laura, tis the season...there will be days in the coming weeks we will all have to adapt our approaches to this discussion to our schedules. Be prepared! I had such a day today...

You find that Will and Dorothea are very different, "never on the same page." Why can't they communicate their feelings to one another? Isn't it maddening they don't just say what is on their minds? Why doesn't Dorothea just tell him about the codicil? Then he could tell her he was never interested in her money anyway. If they can't talk about this, can they talk about anything important?

As for being different, I though they complimented one another beautifully...she just lights up when he enters the room - actually smiles. I agree with JoanK on this. How often does Dorothea laugh in this pages? Even a cute little baby does not get a smile out of her. Will makes her heart sing! And he finds that his life has meaning when he talks to her - she listens to what he has to say, despite the fact that he has nothing, no rank, no money. Still she listens to him.

Marni, that's it! The important thing they have in common - they don't want to hurt anyone. But isn't the very thing they have in common the very thing that is keeping them apart? They don't want to hurt one another. Each is too willing to be silent about his/her own needs to keep from hurting the other.

How can this ever be resolved? He'll go away - for a long time, make a fortune - and come back on equal footing, worthy of her? It's all about money, isn't it? Money and social status. What will Dorothea do with her time while Will is away? She vows not to marry. I believe her. I'm hearing echoes of the Prologue and St. Theresa again as you all tell of the utopian community she plans with Caleb Garth. Great bit of research, Judy and Marni! The description of Fruitlands - "based on the concept of abstinence from worldly activity. In many ways, Fruitlands made it possible to remove oneself from the masses, deny the world completely, yet leave society wholly intact."

Doesn't it sound as if Dorothea plans to remove herself from the world as St. Theresa did?

"Here and there a cygnet is reared uneasily among the ducklings in the brown pond, and never finds the living stream in fellowship with its own oary-footed kind.>... Here and there is born a Saint Theresa, foundress of nothing, whose loving heartbeats and sobs after an unattained goodness tremble off..."

Judy, Eliot has us all cheering for Will and Dorothea, doesn't she? They both deserve some happiness. But I see Eliot giving us a clue that this is not going to happen as she prepares to submerge Dorothea in the communal project so like Saint Theresa's religious retreat. I hope this is not the case, but am not expecting the happy-ever-after ending - the possibility that Eliot dangles before us.

Will be back in the morning...with Andy, as we both try to catch up with the rest of you. Interesting thoughts on Fred - and Mrs. Garth in here today. Talk about in-law problems, JoanK! Lydgate too is having problems with his perfect wife! - All about money, all about status. Maybe they'll all end up in Dorothea's retreat!

Re:Communalism. I googled the subject and chose the article from the Guide to Communal Living in Britain and under that title I chose what seemed pertinent to our discussion from an article titled"Communalism in the 19th Century" by Andy Wood.It was quite long (6 pages) .

Joan K: Wow! Talk about serendipity. I lived in a Kibbutz for a number of years and then worked at the Kibbutz Treatment Center for Children and Families. The name of the Kibbutz I was at is called Barkai. Where were you?

Judy

JUDY: I lived in Beer Sheva from 1963 to 1966, and taught in the kibbutz about 6 km outside of town for the last year. I'm ashamed to say I've forgotten its name. Where is Barkai, and when were you there? How did you find kibbutz life?

JoanP: Re: "they don't want to hurt anyone. But isn't the very thing they have in common the very thing that is keeping them apart?"

You are so right!!! I gues it is very ironic. But it makes me want to buy the next installment!

Marni, it seems that Eliot's people are falling into two distinct camps. Those who think only of themselves and status ...and those who put everyone else first. I sense more and more that Dorothea is going to forgo her great love because she doesn't want to hurt Will, injure his pride. It's hard to fault her for that, isn't it?

If this is the case, I'm not sure that Eliot intends a happy ending for any of the three couples. The Fred-Mary match is the most puzzling to me because I can't figure out Mary's true feelings for Fred. He certainly pales when compared to her brother Christy. What does she feel for Farebrother? We know how Mrs. Garth feels - and she can't help herself from letting Fred know it -

"It was a little too provoking even for her self-control that this blooming youngster should flourish on the disappointments of sadder and wiser people - making a meal of a nightingale and never knowing it - and that all the while his family should suppose that hers was in eager need of this sprig."

Marni asks does Fred have a chance? Isn't Eliot making it clear that Farebrother is a better match? But what of Mary's heart? Does Fred really have her heart? I can't decide whether she feels badly for poor Mr. Farebrother, whom she greatly respects - or does she really prefer Farebrother, but can't bear to hurt Fred? If she just feels badly for both of them, but neither has her heart, I won't worry if she turns down both of them and joins Dorothea in her communal paradise. ( I never knew anyone who lived in a commune, or a kibbutz... am following JoanK and Judy's experiences with great interest.)

JoanK thinks Caleb's determination to make Fred into a worthy husband for Mary will succeed. Do you? How will Mary be able to turn Fred down, if he does in fact make a go of it? Maybe he'll work with Caleb Garth in establishing the commune of Dorothea's dreams and Fred and Mary can live there together - with Farebrother too.

Babi, you're quite right, Fred is not one willing to sacrifice his own hopes for Mary's happiness with Farebrother. Even if he perceives that Farebrother is a rival. Isn't the problem with Will and Dorothea the fact that they are both too hesitant to express their true feelings? I agree, Fred should "fight" - with the understanding that he might lose. I worry, as Mary does, what would become of him if he loses Mary. She seems to be his reason for living. Does he ever once stop and consider that Farebrother would be a better match for her?

Joans, I too am glad Fred is willing to fight for Mary, and there is no doubt in my mind that she loves him. At the same time, like Mrs. Garth, I cannot help see how much finer is the man who is willing to sacrifice his own hopes for the happiness of one he loves. Still, Fred is the younger man and the one who has caught Mary's heart. No one can blame her for that. At least she has had the firmness of character to refuse him until he proves himself capable of doing a man's work.

I don't really believe Will and Dorothea are going to spend years apart while he makes a fortune. (That is a problematic pursuit at best; not everyone makes a fortune just because they set out to do so, even if they do possess talents.) I see in Eliot's many clues about Bulstrode, his wealthy, older first wife and her daughter and grandson, to suspect that a respectable fortune may be coming Will's way. And communes are not all that easily and readily established either. I think there is hope for Will and Dorothea, and that they will find means to do good together as a happy couple. It would be just too aggravating if they do not. This is Eliot, not Thomas Mann!

Babi

JoanP--O, she loves him. They have been friends since childhood and Mary loves Fred. She tells Farebrother as much when he comes as emissary for Fred. In this time to tell someone that he "had hopes" was as good as saying, yes I'll certainly accept him once he gets straightened out. They are as good as married once Fred decides that hard work is not something to be dreaded. We see his new dedication in this section where he works with Mr. Garth and is disappointed when Garth shows him the books and explains the other part of his job--keeping records and learning to write legibly. I got a chuckle out of the description of Fred's handwriting which is that of the gentleman of his day--reminded me of how many doctors write today! Mary, on the other hand, has beautiful handwriting. Lessons in store?

So, Fred and Mary, who have always been the least star-crossed of the lovers will end up together. Now, as to Will and Dorothea, I like Babi's idea about the whole Bulstrode problem and the fact that Will seems to be an as yet unrewarded heir to some money. But there is the remaining problem of Casaubon's nasty codicil and D's determination to do good works with her inheritance. She'll have to give all that money away in order to marry Will, won't she?

Lydgate and Rosamond the narcissist have the least rosy future, I think. Perhaps Lydgate will come to accept R. for who she is, a decorative object, and be content to devote himself to medicine. She certainly isn't going to change, is she?

Maryal

Re: Lydgate to "...be content to devote himself to medicine."

I don't think it's going to be that simple. They are going into terrible debt with Rosamund's wild spending habits. I don't think she's going to feel like stopping. She wants to live the good life and is going to do it one way or another.

Marni

BABI: "This is Eliot, not Thomas Mann!" I had to laugh and laugh at that, Although sometimes Eliot's sentences are almost as hard to untangle as Mann's.

It's a no-no to assume everything in the book reflects the author's life, but I can't help it. I'm beginning to wonder if Lydgate is based on someone Eliot knew who ignored her and married an airhead. Has anyone else noticed that whenever Rosamund intends to ignore what is told her and do just as she pleases, she "turns her neck". I'm getting awfully tired of that neck. I imagine L. will too.

R. is used to going through men to get what she wants. If L. can't supply her, I can imagine some nasty possibilities.

Joan K--I've been tired of R's lovely neck for a long time myself. I also don't like her blond hair. In fact I don't like anything about her. Maybe if I could hear her play the piano that would be acceptable.

And I'll bet that Eliot knew not ONE man who married a lovely airhead who lived to regret his choice but probably many MANY men.

Maryal

Joan K There are many Kibbutzim near Ber Sheva. Was it North or South or West or East of the city? Barkai is located between Haifa and Hadera at the foot of the Arab Triangle of Wadi Arah. I was there from 1957 -69. If anyone wants to discuss communal life with me please write to me at:

Judyshernock@hotmail.com

Now back to the 19th Century and MM

In answer to "has either of them(Lydgate and Rosamund) changed since their marriage?R has not changed and probably never will. L. has changed only in that financial reality is becoming a yoke round his neck. It gets tighter when he has trouble beleiving "this is happening to me." It is tightening also by his wifes spoiled attitude and need for a life style she can't afford.

They are discussing finances and R thinks "if she had known how L. would behave she would never have married him". She sees facts as attitude.

Meanwhile L is thinking " It seemed that she had no more identified with him than if they had been creatures of differing species and opposing interests."

When she brings him her jewellery he sends her a withering look and says "Now that we have been united you should not leave me to myself in the first trouble that has come." R has not left L physically but their is a serious emotional cutoff on both their parts.

L thinks it is all his fault and R thinks it is his fault as well. R has not yet done anything despicable but the opening to that path has been layed. This is no Primrose Lane.

Judy

Thank you Judy, Deams Maryal and Marni for your posts re: Utopean Societies. The one in my mind was the Alcott story that I read somewhere. Also I have read about some of these so called Societies in America, one in or around Boston where the leader had many of the women of the commune as his mistress'. I have been hunting for the book I had regarding that one, it was included with a study of cults.In the 1800 and beyond the English ideal society bred many of these men and women looking for a perfect world. I would have to do a lot of reasearch to get Joan P the links so will when we have more info on what Garth and Dorothea are planning on. I know she is selling some of her land to the railroad. Fai

DEEMS: yes, Eliot really has it in for blonds. Whenever she really doesn’t like Rosamund, she mentions how blond she is. I wonder if the same blond stereotypes were around then as now, or this is Eliot’s personal reaction. Character as determined by hair color. Good thing all the people who take all those personality tests don’t know it’s that simple – their marketers would go out of business.

JUDY: isn’t it interesting that both L. and R. think the money troubles are L’s fault, but L. because he spent too much, and R. because he doesn’t have enough money (or maybe because he is too cheap to spend his money).

It’s always interested me that something that is as cut and dried as dollars and cents (I should say pounds and pence) is treated in a completely non-logical way by so many people. (Not any of us, of course. We’re all completely logical in our financial decisions. Right?) Well, actually, I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone (including me) who was COMPLETELY logical in their financial decisions, but most of us are logical enough that our spending roughly corresponds with how much money we have. But I’ve known more than a few like L. and R. who haven’t a clue.

Fred was like that, but his dip into hot water seems to have changed him. The same seems to be true for L. We all suspect it won’t be true for R. This looks like the old stereotype of the spendthrift wife, except that all the other women have a good handle on the money, some more so than their husbands. Mr. Brooke is the other side of the coin, making economies in his farming that are harmful and unnecessary.

Eliot has placed obstacles in the path to happiness - for each of the couples. I guess it's these obstacles some of us see as insurmountable - others see a happy resolution to these real problems. For Mary and Fred, the solution is all in Fred's court - IF he can make something of himself, working for Caleb Garth, then Mary will consider his proposal. Isn't this a big IF?

I'm wondering whether the success of Dorothea's communal project will play a part in Fred's chances for success. I'm wondering if the coming of the railroad will have an impact on the whole project. Why would Eliot introduce the tension surrounding the building of the railway through Lowick? Dorothea sees an ideal community in which everyone works together, everyone is happy, everyone is her friend. I'm not sure who these happy people will be? Where will they come from?

Faith, you mention that Caleb plans to sell land on Dorothea's property to the railway. Perhaps that will adversely affect the project - I don't know how, but the farmers of Lowick are already suspicious that the railroad is going to divide up the land - will only benefit the wealthy.

The women of Middlemarch are not happy about trains coming through - think it a dangerous proposition. Is Susan Garth one of these women? She doesn't seem too excited about Caleb working with Dorothea either - listening to him go on and on about her fine mind. Is there a bit of resentment growing there? She worries that "Mrs Casaubon might not hold the true principle of subordination." What is the true principle in Mrs. Garth's mind?

Funny, the same question of subordination to one's husband occurs to Lydgate - regarding Rosamond. Marni, I think Rosamond's spending habits are not going to change. She does what she wants to do. They will continue to get deeper in debt. He suddenly seems so helpless, she so strong. She does not recognize the "principle of subordination," does she? I loved the way Eliot portrayed the whole situation - "he was every day getting deeper into that swamp, which tempts man towards it with such a pretty covering of flowers and verdure." He's still moved by that lovely neck and distracted by those blond tresses. Will is blond JoanK - do you think Eliot has it in for him too? Is it a sign of deficiency of character - a lack of depth? I too, find Lydgate nearly as illogical as Rosamond when it comes to finances. We can't blame all this mess on her. He likes to buy only the finest - when he hasn't the funds to cover it. Where does he think the money will come from?

I'm wondering what keeps him from turning to his wealthy uncle for help? Is it just pride? Even without the financial problems, I think Lydgate has another bigger problem with his lovely wife, Judy. You nailed it - he realizes that his wife "had no more identified with him than if they had been creatures of differing species and opposing interests." He is now aware that she has no respect for his work, his profession, his research. He's beginning to sound like Casaubon, isn't he? When a man loses the respect of his wife, his pride is deeply wounded...especially when she takes up with someone like his cousin - were you surprised to see him referred to as a "conceited ass"? I wonder if this was a common term in Eliot's time - or did she coin it?

I don't think that Rosamond ever thinks about money. Lovely objects and beautiful dresses just appear. Someone else probably does something or other with money but she certainly isn't interested in basic economics.

She is only interested in CLASS. She doesn't like Lydgate's relatives as people; she thinks of them as the ones with titles. She wants to befriend them, or rather make them proud of her, because she thinks that their claim to social position will somehow transfer itself to her. She just doesn't get it; she has no understanding that some titled people may be wonderful folks and others scoundrels.

Dorothea, who could have married Sir James and thus been one of the titled herself, doesn't give two figs for rank. In fact I think if she had a title she would renounce it. She would no doubt appreciate the money if any money were attached to the title because then she would have more money to give away.

As for utopian communities: I think the reason that none of them lasted very long was that many who joined discovered that running an agricultural business was really really hard work and that the supposed intellectual encounters actually didn't happen all that frequently because everyone who worked was tired in the evening.

Those who didn't work hard during the day also weren't appreciated. And then there's the business of all those communal meals. Sounds nice in theory, but again, considerable WORK entailed to make it come about. The fate of the utopian communities was predictable to anyone who understands the difference between the ideal and reality. Ah, to be a romantic and believe in such schemes.

Maryal

Fred is blond, too, and exceptionally handsome from some descriptions. This makes it rather interesting that he is so drawn to Mary, who is depicted as rather plain. This makes me think of a big difference between Rosamond and Fred. Although they are both spoiled and have taken money for granted, Fred loves a woman for her character, common sense, intelligence, and personality, not for her money. Fred, with his handsome and dashing appearance, could possibly find someone with more money, someone to support him. Rosamond, on the other hand, loves no one but herself. She deliberately went after an outsider who might be able to take her away from the small town and into a more brilliant society.

Marni

Dorothea takes money for granted, also, I believe. She was raised in some wealth and leisure. She received a dowry of 700 pounds per year and married a wealthy man. I don't think she has a clue or worries about what it would be like to be poor. She is an idealist and seems rather naive. Of course, how much would a woman in her position have learned about handling money. Probably not mucy, so naivete is forgiven. But I wonder how idealist she would feel if she had no money and were struggling.

Marni

Middlemarchers are at first much against hate railroads coming. They make up their minds on the flimsiest information and downright exaggerations passing around. Cows will have miscarriages,eh? Well Caleb speaks out against the ignorance and the lies. He is very intelligent and doesn't buy into these things the way the masses do. The attackers of his assistant are masking fear with aggression while others will hide their fear with fighting words against the railroad. The populace must come to terms with the nature of progress vs tradition. It always brings fear until investigation and then acceptance occur.

When Fred and Christy Are compared Fred comes off the worse for being the product of privilege. He is lazy and irresponsible. Christy is just the opposite. He possesses the qualities of industry and thrift of his parents which they possess and respect. Mrs Garth's pride in her son and his character show what the Garth's find worthy. Fred becomes even less of an attractive prospect to Mrs. Garth when compared to Christy. This also shows the big difference in the two families which will give Fred difficulty when he wants to prove worth of Mary.

Still I think as Mrs Garth softens toward Fred he will appear more likely to do well. I am pulling for him. I truly want Mary and Fred to make a go of it in this wilderness of poor marriages. faith

Wasn't that a great scene of Caleb Garth calming down the irate people fighting and railing over the railroad. Caleb at his best - cool, calm, and collected, knowing just exactly what to do to get things settled down.

I think in the beginning of the book Mr. Garth's qualities were not all flattering - his financial setbacks, problems handling financial aspects of business. But, we now are seeing his excellent qualities. This is the man Mrs. Garth is happy with and proud of.

I liked the way we saw Fred and Caleb together in the railroad quarrel scene. We saw Caleb's maturity and control. We saw the gallant young hero Fred flying in on his horse coming to the rescue.

I hope they make a good pairing as they work together. I hope things work out for Fred and the Garths.

I wondered why the workers were so afraid of th RR. It reminded me of a story about an American Indian by the name of Ishi. He was the last of his tribe to survive and an Anthropologist wanted to take him to San Francisco to study his language before it was lost. Ishi was dressed in Western clothes and went with the Anthropologist to the city on a large,roaring train (this was many years ago).

Eventually Ishi learned English and he told the Professor that people in his tribe thought that the Train was a roaring Dragon and the people entering it were being sacrificed to its Fiery appetite.

The Prof asked him why he went into the train with no problem. Ishi answered: "I was more curious than scared".

It seems that the workers in MM were more scared than curious about this new phenomenon.

Judy

I have just a few pages left of this week's reading --- better late than never.

Anyway, I have no clue which two persons dear to Caleb Garth will be affected by the railroad. I am sure you all do, so I will have to read what you had to say.

The mothers of Fred and Mary reacted as I would have expected them to react to Fred and Mary’s relationship.

Poor Fred, having Christy, the model son, come home just as he is trying to get himself together.

I am glad to see that Lydgate's head is finally coming out from behind the clouds, at least when it comes to his wife.

What?!?! Rosamund kill Lydgate because she wearied of him?!?! Guess I had better read those last few pages...

And read all of your posts!

Laura - No one has tackled the question about the two persons Eliot refers to in #2. We were waiting for you! Mary has got to be one of them. The coming of the railroad means that Fred will now have work, will not leave town and is very much in the running for Mary's hand. Who is the other?

Caleb is cool, Marni, but not very practical. Perhaps that's why he's in involved with Dorothea in her impractical plan for an early Eden. I liked the way he counselled Fred about chosing a profession. Too bad Mr. Vincey never had such a talk with his son. But I worry about Fred trying to make a go of it to prove himself to Mary while working for Caleb, who has a history of failed enterprises. What will Mary do about Fred if he cannot succeed in this venture? Do you think she could turn her back on him? Fai, I can't see Mrs. Garth softening towards Fred - at all. As you say, maybe in time...but I'm not holding my breath.

Laura, remember Mme.Larre? The Frenchwoman Lydgate had a thing for when he was a young med student? She'd killed her husband because she was tired of him. What do you think Rosamond will do if she gets tired of hearing Lydgate complain about her spending - or talk about his need for corpses for his research?

Maybe Middlemarchers were frightened of the railroad, Judy, but the men were not afraid to take the money for the land. Which is why it is sure to go through!

Someone was asking if Dorothea would be willing to give up the Casaubon property if she loved Will. And noted, quite rightly, that Dorothea would have no real notion of what it would be like to be poor.

Fortunately, that last would not be a problem. She would still have her inheritance from her mother, which would be quite adequate to support her comfortably. Actually, I think she would happily give it up to anyone else who had a claim to it; she had already tried to urge her husband to give part of it up to Ladislaw. Since the property is hers, she feels a responsibility to use it wisely.

Babi

The two people that Caleb cares about could be Fred and Mary. Or Fred/Mary and one of the younger children (the one that was going to be apprenticed before Mrs. Garth had to give Fred her money?).

I forgot that Will was a blond. But Eliot never calls him blond though-- just refers admiringly to his golden curls. Maybe there is a double standard there. Or maybe Will has to overcome his "blondness" as Fred has to overcome his spoiledness. Hmmm.

I suspect the reactions to the railroad may be based on actual accounts. I hope Eliot goes into it more.

JoanK: Eliot does use the word "blond" describing men in the book. And there are several blond men.

Fred, not Will, had blond hair. "Mrs. Vincy told these messages to Fred when he could listen, and he turned towards her his delicate, pinched face, from which all the thick blond hair had been cut away, and in which the eyes seemed to have got larger, yearning for some word about Mary...."

Sir James is blond, also. "...the rider was Sir James Chettam. He discerned Dorothea, jumped off his horse at once, and, having delivered it to his groom, advanced towards her with something white on his arm, at which the two setters were barking in an excited manner. 'How delightful to meet you, Miss Brooke," he said, raising his hat and showing his sleekly waving blond hair."

Will had light brown curls. He was described in the first section: "The young man had laid down his sketch-book and risen. His bushy light-brown curls, as well as his youthfulness, identified him at once with Celia's apparition. 'Dorothea, let me introduce to you my cousin, Mr. Ladislaw. Will, this is Miss Brooke.'" (Here his curls are "bushy" but later they are "bouncing.")

Thank goodnes for the Find tool in the online Middlemarch!

I seem to have an eye for blond hair color in the book. Maybe I'm into this today because I just spent 5 (yes, 5) hours coloring and frosting my hair. What a chore. But I felt like it for the holidays. I think it was worth it. Maybe. Saved myself $200 that I would have paid at the hairdresser.

Marni

MARNI: I stand corrected. I'll bet your hair looks gorgeous.

Ah, Marni, you have more stamina than I have. (They charge $200. for frosting hair?!!) Enjoy your gorgeous holiday hair; you deserve it.

I seem to have gotten ahead in my reading. I'll go read my Greeley mystery and wait for Monday.

Babi

Marni--Thank you. I had remembered Will as brown haired too but was too busy this week (another set of papers) to look it up. And it makes sense that Fred is blond since he is Rosamond's brother.

I didn't know what color Sir James' hair was though.

In fact, I think the only hair color I remembered--other than the despicable Rosamond's--was Dorothea. I know her hair is dark brown.

Congratulations on frosting your own hair. I used to have my hair frosted...........and then nature came along and frosted it for me. I'm fortunate to have fairly light brown, blond in some places, hair so that all the white looks OK with it. Note I do not say "Fabulous." It is acceptable, that's all.

The railroad is a mixed blessing. Imagine the dirt and dust introduced into a previously pristine countryside. And the NOISE. And the more easy accessibility that the railroad will provide. Who knows what kind of strange people (remember the Middlemarchers are very provincial as witnessed by their response to Lydgate) may find their ways into town?

But I think the railroad will ultimately be a good thing; I really like Mr. Garth. I know he has a first name--Caleb--I give him the more formal title out of respect.

Maryal

Now Maryal and Marni have my imagination going. My hair is all white now. What if I put it some stripes of peppermint red for the holidays!!

No? Aw....party poopers.

Babi

BAbi--I've thought of that myself. The young woman who takes the cards at our local Y has that bright bright red red streaked in her hair. It looks very festive to me.

My daughter thinks that those very bright hair colors wash out after about twenty shampoos.

So keep thinking.

Babi: Why not give the peppermint red stripes a try. You'd fit right in with the hot hair colors that are popular today! My good friend (age 60) dies her hair a purply red. She has a blast.

In Sept. my husband and I visited Seattle. You should have seen the wild hairdos and hair colors there! Many punk looks prevailed and lots of purple or blue hair sticking straight up in the air with some sort of glop. Quite interesting.

My hair, unfortunately, is now part blond, part brown, and part gray - horrible. No beautiful blond Rosamund locks for me. What the hay! I feel younger when I color it and frosted blond is fun. But, what a drag to keep it colored.

Marni

I started to gray so early in life (16 years old) that I started to color my hair and did so for so long I couldn't really know what my real hair color was.

At age 50 I decided to get a short hair cut to begin cutting out the color just so that I would know who and how I really was!!

Well..my first hair cuts in my fifties were splendid. I guess by the third cut my true color showed through and I had black and white salt-and-pepper, mostly black but with beautiful whiter than white sideburns...I LOVED my natural hair.

Then gradually, although it seemed suddenly, my hair became whiter and whiter and it was no longer strikingly white just at the sideburns. Not only that, but the white bit started to yellow and get that fuzzy look. If I used shampoo that made my hair feel good and healthy, my white hair yellowed...and if I used that lovely shampoo for gray and white hair, my hair did not yellow but became quite dry and unhealthy. I am still trying to make peace with my hair. I'm way too white and gray to even think of successfully coloring it but 'au naturale' was very 'iffy'!!

So I got a REALLY short cut, a la Dame Judi Dench and I'm happy with my hair again.

I think if I had put 1/10 of the time and energy into my education as I have done into my hair, I'd be a Ph.D. by now!!

Alliemae

Alliemae, I LOVE Judi Dench! And her haircut. It suits her personality so well. I'm sure your's is equally flattering. The question persists - to color or go au naturelle. Marni, the funniest thing in Ireland last spring - the number of young and older women with red hair - colored red hair! Purpley red hair!

If your color makes you feel young, how do you put a price on that??? Keep in on, as long as you have that youthful feeling. (What do you do with the gray in the eyebrows? Gosh, I'm glad there are no guys in this discussion - they'd be tearing out their own hair right now!

I believe you, that Will's hair is light brown...have had images of the golden lights on his hair whenever he moved his curly head... I just looked up "hair" in the Search box and found this"When he turned his head quickly his hair seemed to shake out light," So maybe Will had just spent the day putting in highlights and that's why I found his "blond" lights memorable.

I wanted to say one more thing about Lydgate and his hopes that his little blond wife will have enough love for him to get them through this crisis. I don't have much hope for this couple, but then you know that I don't see happy endings for Dorothea and Will, or for Fred and Mary either for that matter. Maybe I'm watching Eliot too closely. Maybe I'm reading too much into her remarks.

JoanK, I was thinking that the two people closest to Caleb Garth would be Mary and his wife, Susan. Try that on for size - how would the coming of the railroad affect his wife? She's not too happy with his working so closely with Dorothea and her project. Nor is she happy with his taking Fred under his wing to groom him as his son-in-law.

Do you remember that Eliot wrote Middlemarch, (Dorothea's story) and Lydgate's story as separate books and only later, combined them both into Middlemarch? I think I have that right. Well, I've been watching her insert Lydgate into scene's with Dorothea - and visa versa. Thought it was interesting that in the height of the dramatic talk with Rosamond, his mind turned to Dorothea when her own husband was in great trouble and needed her help. He remembered her plea for an answer to her question - what could she do? She would have done anything for Casaubon. What a comparison between the two wives and their reaction to the need for sacrifice.

One of the reasons people didn't want the railroad was because the tracks laid down would cut up people's property. And it did. The railroad took a lot of land.

I'm currently reading Nothing Like It in the World: The Men Who Built the Transcontinental Railroad 1863-1869 by Stephen Ambrose. (I believe it was a SeniorNet discussion book some years ago.) It describes in detail all the surveying, land purchasing, building, legal work, etc. that was required to build the railroad. Not only was the length of the track extensive, but a certain amount of land on either side of the track was required, also. And then there was land to build train stations. In America at that time, most of the land was owned by and bought from the government.

In England, with so much less property than the vast U.S., the land must have been owned privately mainly by nobility and landed gentry, I think. Probably much was leased by tenants. It was still an agricultural world becoming industrialized. People who worked the land were probably very fearful, with reason, of what would become of their farms and animals.

And then, as someone mentioned, there would be the noise and soot. Wood or coal was burned to create the steam to run the engines. It was dirty business and probably very disruptive to a once-peaceful, quiet rural community. Perhaps in Middlemarch it was too early for people to see a need for mass transportation to factories and cities where more and more eventually headed for work, away from the country.

Marni

I was in the Nothing Like It In The World discussion as I love railroads and all my great-grandma's sons Five of them worked on the railroad out of Sparks Nevada...the great turntable yard for East West Traffic. She brought her family of husband, 2 children including my newborn grandmother to Nevada and homesteaded land there in 1876. I wrote a story about her and Mal published it in Sonata.

My opinion of the Middle-marchers is that they were very insular and could not picture outsiders coming into their world. Look how they treated Bulstrode in the beginning and later Ladislaw and the medical man Lydgate. They remained sort of Outsiders socially. It does not seem to be the landowners that are fighting the railways at this point in the story, but their lackeys who work the fields and are tenants on the land. Garth is the most progressive man in town even if he is not the richest because though he works so hard and manages so much land he is to fair to really charge what he is worth.

I do remember that the original story of Dorothea and the other of Lydgate were separate short stories that t the author integrated when she wrote this novel which was published as a serialization though I understand she wrote the complete novel before publishing began which makes it read a little more consistently than true serials would if novelized. Is there such a word...well I just made it up. It is only fair that I can make up words as I also am a blond child who turned red brown in adulthood. When I got tired of the reddish brown I bleached blond for many years. I let it grow out and it was turning very Grey in my 60's but then after chemotherapy, and baldness, it came in very very dark brown and a different texture. It wont go Grey !! I keep wanting to strip it again and then dye back white/Grey. Money stops me or I would do it so watch out if I win the lottery you will see a 78 year old bleached blond. hahaha Fai

BABI: peppermint red? Definitely. Go for it!!!

Yes, Judy Dench looks great!! But of course she has “bones”. Women with “bones” look great wit anything.

I found my first gray hair when I was 10. So gray has no association with age for me. I’m much too lazy to start coloring my hair. Now my son has started coloring his hair to cover the gray. But I stick to mine.

But I never thought of peppermint stripes. Hmmmmmmm. I wish I’d thought of it earlier – I’d have had orange and black for Halloween.

Yes, taking land for the railroad would be much more of a problem where land was limited, as in England. I was thinking earlier that one of the reasons for the more rigid class system in England was that class was based on land ownership, and land was limited. In the US at the time, anyone could acquire land.

What? I've been gone over an hour and no one has posted? OK, I'll go watch Judy Dench on TV.

I must add to the discussion that in England, especially in Bath, the center of wild and wooly "literary (hippy) culture", the number of young and middle aged with various and sundry colors in their hair was just amazing. Also the "dos"(pronounced dues) was just as varied. The Mohawk was in for both sexes and long uncombed locks were quite popular. I witnessed this only six months ago so I imagine it is still going on.

GE seems to put some symbolic value on "Blondies". It ain't true. Both my brother and I and two of my three kids were "Blondies". My brother is bald,I'm dyed(not Blond) and my kids hair changed as they grew older. The one that wasn't blonde dyes her hair blonde.

We were all many things but nobody was superficial.

I can't figure out what two people close to Garth will be effected by the RR. Caleb seems to be interested in his own family and Fred as a proper addition. Will the coming of the RR bring him and Fred more work and thus allow Fred to marry Mary?

If MM becomes a stop on the RR it may effect all the inhabitants of the town. It may also provide work for those farmers who are unemployed. It may bring blight but it also brings new jobs and a faster way to transport the farmers products to market. It is a mixed blessing but like all innovations, inevitable.

Judy

Faith: That was so interesting about your family and the railroad! I wish I had been involved in the discussion of the Ambrose book. However, I'll join Harold's discussion next year on the Ambrose Lewis and Clark.

Another book I'm currently reading (I have about 5 going simultaneously!!) is Lincoln by Gore Vidal. It was inteesting to read that he was a crafty railroad attorney and it was Attorney Lincoln who got the government to pass legislation that the railroad didn't have to pay tax on land use for the railroad.

I just finished last week’s assignment and will only make a couple of comments, after rereading each post
. I’m happy to see Dorothea leaving the monotony of watching her sister drool over her child and return to Lowick. The love-smitten Will has left for parts unknown and D’s heart is broken. I agree with Joan- for crying out loud why can’t these two communicate their feelings?
Kind Caleb has taken “Fred’s soul” in his hands and wishes to help him and Mary, although Mrs. Garth has set up a new consciousness in Fred – the ugly green eye of jealousy emerges.
Rosamond, against Tertius’s wishes, foolishly went horse back riding with the flirtatious “baronet’s son” and lost her baby. The proud Lydgate’s debts have mounted and he approaches this self-indulgent wife, admonishing that they must change their ways. Good grief, will noone find happiness in this novel? Well at least Deems thinks it is to be.
Dear readers, do not forget- gentlemen prefer blondes! I used to believe that was due to the fact that blondes know what the gentlemen prefer. On to Chapter LIX for this Thanksgiving week.

Don't despair! There have to be some troubles to overcome or there wouldn't be a story, now would there. There may be some 'crash and burn' outcomes, but others will surely find happiness. (Raffles will, hopefully, be among the 'crash and burn'.)

As to insular Middlemarch, don't all small towns tend to be insular? How often I have heard of people moving to small towns and finding it hard to be accepted. The people may be polite, and even friendly, but after many years you are still the 'new people'. Most of the people in Middlemarch have lived there for generations, and know one another's family back to their great-grandparents.

(ALLIEMAE, my daughter made me a present of a bottle of Jhirmack's Shining Silver (I think that's right) Shampoo from the salon where she gets her haircuts. It takes the yellow out of white hair, as I can attest.)

Babi

Babi, yes!! I use the Jhirmack's as well! It does do a great job...

Allliemae

Okay, Babi, I'll keep that in mind and won't despair - just yet. I don't get why Raffles is being portrayed as malevolent as he is. It's one thing to blackmail someone for personal gain, but Raffles seems to take delight in what he's doing. He really wants to see Bulstrode squirm. There's got to be more to this story. Do you think there is some relationship between Raffle's stepson, Joshua Rigg and Bulstrode that we don't know about yet?

Marni writes -

"One of the reasons people didn't want the railroad was because the tracks laid down would cut up people's property. And it did. The railroad took a lot of land."

I'm wondering what Caleb was thinking of when he told the farmers that someone had lied to them about its being harmful to them? I'm sure Caleb believes that it would be good for them, but not sure how he sees them benefit. I agree it would be good for the big landowners, but even if the farmers were given a lump sum for land they owned (I'm remembering Judy's Enclosure Acts here), how would they live? An how would the tenant farmers live without land to farm? Maybe that's where Dorothea's little Eden project comes in - they could do their farming there and share the harvest...

Somehow I don't see her project working and don't see a successful venture for Caleb - but it wouldn't be the first time, would it? If it is not successful for Caleb, then Fred goes down too. Mary has laid down a condition - Fred must prove himself before she will marry him. I can't see her turning him down if he fails, do you? Would she have him anyway? And if he fails, and she marries him, her mother will be none too pleased with her new son-in-law - or with her husband!

In the long run, the railroad would improve the Middlemarch economy, but the farmers seem to have been the big losers at first. Don't blame them for picking up their pitchforks and demonstrating!

OK, tomorrow we start a new section and find out what Bulstrode's secret is. Actually, he's hiding several things. Do those who haven'tr read it yet want to take a last guess?

No posts all day? Everybody reading like mad? Getting ready for Thanksgiving? Too bad Middlemarch won't celebrate it.

hahaha, Joan, I for one have stopped trying to outguess what Eliot intends to do with her characters, and try to put the pieces together that she has already provided. Have you noticed that nothing really shocking happens for which we have not been prepared? Unlike soap operas...

Simply love the image of the bee, carelessly spreading pollen (news, gossip) at the start of Chapter LIX, which we will begin today. So, so true, isn't it?

You may have noticed that we discussed 6 chapters last week and have only 4 left for what may be a short "work week" with the Thanksgiving holiday coming up. JoanK, yes, I spent yesterday baking turkey cookies for the little ones in Memphis. We'll be driving down on Wednesday. ((A thirteen hour drive with puppy!!! This may be the first and last time we do this.)) I hope to tune in from there from time to time on my son's computer.

"News is often dispersed as thoughtlessly and effectively as the pollen which the bees carry off (having no idea how powdery they are) when they are buzzing in search of their particular nectar."

So, in this way, the pollen finally makes its way on Fred's yellow head to Rosamond's, who is quick to reveal that bit of pertinent information to Will. Not sure what reaction she hoped for, but the really delicious part - the bee is not finished spreading his pollen concerning these two, which leads up to the final curtain - of the Widow - who would be Wife! Let's see if Dorothea and Will can finally "talk turkey" before the week is out, Andy. This is a real opportunity for them to clear the air of pollen!

My sister is here visiting. She is an Assistant Professor of Rhetoric at Kansas University. Her Master’s degree is in English and American literature, but she has not read any George Eliot. She read an excerpt of Middlemarch and said it had long sentences, but not as long and complicated as a lot of 18th century prose. Remind me not to read any 18th century stuff! LOL! Anyway, I mentioned that Middlemarch was originally serialized. She commented that in the 18th century, writers wrote longer works because they were often paid by the page. I couldn’t help but wonder if Eliot was paid by the page. Does anyone have any information on this?

P.S. I am just about done with this week’s reading so I will be chatting with you tomorrow!

So, Will finally knows about the codicil. About time. He's horrified and terribly humiliated and decides to put off delaying departure from Middlemarch. No need to hang around any longer. Time to say one last goodby to Dorothea and be off. (She hasn't even realized he's still been hanging around for....what?....2 months? since he said goodby the last time?)

Once again it is difficult for Will and Dorothea to just come out with it and say that they love each other. But, just as Will is leaving, he says words that D. finally understands to mean that he loves her. But they part.

This section shows us an agonizing Will. He hears a lot of information that blows him away. Not only does he hear about the codicil in Cas's will but Raffles bumps into Will, hears his name, and recognizes him because Will apparently looks exactly like father. (of course!) Raffles asks Will was his mother named Sarah Dunkirk (which she was.) Raffles tells Will that his mother was from a "low-life" family and Will is depressed about it.

Then Bulstrode tells Will that he had married Will's grandmother, Sarah's mother, and that he couldn't find Sarah, who had run away to the stage. Will gets Bulstrode to admit that he hadn't tried to find her. Bulstrode now admits that he gained money from his wife and wants to give Will some as his due, the long lost grandson. Although Bulstrode tries to give Will money, proud Will refuses it because it was earned in a despicable manner (pawnbroker business).

I am now totally confused about family relations. I thought Bustrode married an "old lady" who had a son, Riggs, right? But, now we hear that the "old Lady" Bulstrode married is Sarah Dunkirk's widowed mother, who had only 2 children - Sarah, the only daughter, and one son who is dead. So, what about Riggs?

Am I completely mixing up families here? Can anyone straighten me out here? Thanks!

Marni

I know GE meant this for our dear Dr. Lydgate but this sentence gave me pause.” If a man goes a little too far along a new road, it is usually him self that he harms more than any one else." Isn’t that the truth? Everyone enjoys innovation and new concepts when all is going well, but the minute something goes awry- one finds himself standing quite alone, to face the consequences. Although Mr. Farebrother indirectly offered his assistance to Lydgate, Dover is still hovering in the wings waiting to take possession of his furniture and the dear doctor is becoming more and more estranged from his beloved wife (the selfish little twit.). INDEED! Who would not dread a future without affection?

It was as if a fracture in delicate crystal had begun, and he was afraid of any movement that might mate it fatal. His marriage would be a mere piece of bitter irony if they could not go on loving each other. He had long ago made up his mind to what he thought was her negative character -- her want of sensibility, which showed itself in disregard both of his specific wishes and of his general aims.”

How often does Eliot need to harp on the discrepancies of gender? “Lydgate's anger rose: he was prepared to be indulgent towards feminine weakness, but not towards feminine dictation.” ahhhh - look- she cries- real tears! How tender! Tender- until the anger and her true nature seeps out.

Was Eliot paid by the page? Interesting question. I hope so, she deserves it.

The readers probably liked those long books, too. I’m so buried in unread books all the time, that I forget that in those days, people had access to very few. They had to make them last.

We forget how short our attention span has become. I once participated in a study of women’s magazine fiction from the 30s to the present. The stories aimed at working class women in the thirties were much longer and more complicated than the stories aimed at middle class women today.

MARNI: I’m confused too. I didn’t think Riggs was a relation: I thought he was someone who knew that Bulstrode had found the daughter and was paid off by Bulstrode.

Did you hear the “other shoe dropping”? Bulstrode’s pawnshop accepted anything and didn’t ask questions. We mystery story readers are familiar with such “pawnshops” – they are the “fences” for stolen goods. Thieves know they can sell the goods there, no questions asked (at a fraction of their worth, of course, and the pawnshop builds up a circle of buyers. But the pawnbroker doesn’t know “anything” and can’t be prosecuted.

There are hints that Will’s mother left home because she knew this and didn’t want to be part of it. Will says if his mother felt that way, he doesn’t want to touch the money.

ALF: yes, Rosamund is even worse than we thought. Why did she tell Will, if not simply to cause trouble and keep him from D. But L. is no saint either. He keeps to his patronizing ways. The mean part of me is saying he deserves everything he is getting.

Re: "... I didn’t think Riggs was a relation: I thought he was someone who knew that Bulstrode had found the daughter and was paid off by Bulstrode."

This sounds like Raffles. Raffles found the daughter and was paid off to go to America; he came back and now is Bulstrode is very nervous that his dark past will be revealed. Raffles worked with Bulstrode in the old days and knew Bulstrode's wife (the "old lady" who now turns out to be Sarah Dunkirk Ladislaw's mother.)

So who was Riggs' mother? I thought it was Bulstrode's first wife. But now we find out she had only one son. And he is dead.

Am I right on the above?

Marni

Whooaaa...lots of questions today! Let's address them one by one so we don't overlook anyone's question in this conversation...

1. Laura..."the 18th century, writers wrote longer works because they were often paid by the page. I couldn’t help but wonder if . Laura...the following site contains some interesting comment - Middlemarch: Composition and Publication History. It seems that it was an attempt to publish the massive amount of material already written, not the other way around - writing the novel for payment by the page. whatever the method, Middlemarch made Eliot very, very rich!
Serialization Experiment: When Eliot contemplated her newly combined novel of 236 pages early in 1870, she realized that as the work was progressing thus far, she would need more space than the conventional contemporary serial publication of novels allowed. In her oft-quoted journal entry for March 19, 1871, she muses, "My present fear is that I have too much matter, too many 'momenti'." She combined two major plots and had too much to say concerning both to fit into the normal three-volume publication. She had the option to release her long novel in small monthly parts as Dickens did with David Copperfield and Thackeray with Vanity Fair. But Eliot hated to present her work in such small chunks and wanted to issue large sections at once. Her companion George Lewes suggested that they invent a new format for Middlemarch which would allow for fewer but longer installments which sold for more money than the parts publication of other contemporary British novels. This new kind of serialization would publish Eliot's novel in eight half-volume books to be issued every two months. Lewes posited his invention in a letter on May 7, 1871, to Eliot's publisher, John Blackwood, who accepted the idea, while Eliot continued to write (Notebook to Novel 44).

2. I thought Bustrode married an "old lady" who had a son, Riggs, right? ...Marnie, yes, you are mixing families. The rumor in Middlemarch (that bee pollen again) was that Joshua Rigg was the love child of Peter Featherstone and ??? I don't think her name was ever revealed. JoanK, I missed the part where Rigg knew anything about Bulstrode, his wife and his wife's son and grandson, Will. Does anyone else remember that? Raffles is Joshua Rigg's stepson though. We don't know yet who Rigg's mother was. Do you believe as do many in Middlemarch, that Peter Featherstone was his father? So far the only connection between Bulstrode and Rigg for sure is that Bulstrode bought Peter Featherstone's estate from Rigg.

3. JoanK - Why did Rosamond tell Will,if not simply to cause trouble and keep him from Dorothea? I think you are right, but why did she tell Will that Dorothea preferred him to her property? Why do that? Wouldn't that make Will think there was a chance for him if Dorothea would give up her estate for him?

3. "How often does Eliot need to harp on the discrepancies of gender? “Lydgate's anger rose: he was prepared to be indulgent towards feminine weakness, but not towards feminine dictation.” Andy, as long as we keep asking why Lydgate keeps buckling to Rosamond's feminine wiles. No matter how angry he gets, he is still moved by her delicate frame...her vulnerable disposition. The man is hopeless! I agree with you, JoanK, he deserves much of what he is getting. You have to wonder when he is going to wake up. When the moving van pulls up to reclaim the furniture? Do you see Rosamond putting up with this? What are her options? Going home to daddy?

Whoa, back up; confusion is reigning!

Raffles was the second husband of Riggs mother. Riggs loathes his stepfather for his cruelty and meanness to his mother and to him. No relation to Will Ladislaw.

Bulstrode married an older woman, Will's grandmother. Raffles only connection was that he was apparently hired to attempt to locate the daughter, Sarah. He did find Sarah and her son, but Bulstrode paid him to go away and keep the knowledge away from his wife. Thus, Bulstrode was the sole heir to her fortune.

It is only coincidence that Raffles found in one small community not only his step-son but also the man who once bribed him to go away. Raffles not only wants money..a permanent income, in fact. He also enjoys tormenting people. One can only hope the horrid man gets his just deserts.

Babi

HI, JOAN. I see we were posting at the same time, and both of us with the intent of clearing up the Bulstrode/Raffles/Rigg confusion.

On the question #1, the codicil caused Will great embarassment, distress and anger. It was what determined him to delay no longer in Middlemarch, but leave as quickly as he could wrap up present business. It certainly didn't inspire him to stay where people would view him as a hanger-on, trying to marry money.

Babi

MY BAD! I had a senior moment there and confused Riggs and Raffles. I am hopeless with names. I hope I didn't confuse anyone else. You all seem to have sorted it out nicely.

JOANP: "Do you see Rosamond putting up with this? What are her options? Going home to daddy?"

Her other option is to find a "sugar daddy". I hope she doesn't think of that. I can't see Lydgate putting up with it. But she has been so used all her life to finding men to give her what she wants, I'm afraid she'll find some sucker somewhere.

I actually made a Family Tree (Genogram) of the Dunkirks: Mrs. Dunkirk was married first to Mr. Dunkirk and then when he died she married Nicholas Bulstrode. The Dunkirks had two children:a son who died and a daughter who ran away and eventually married a fellow by the name of A. Ladislaw. The couple had a son before they met with tragedy. That boy is Will. So he was the rightful heir to the Dunkirk fortune. However his Grandmother never knew of his existence.

When Mrs Dunkirk died all her money went to Nicholaas Bulstrode who then married Harriet Vincy (who is sister to Mr Vincy, Freds father). Nicholas and Harriet Bulstrode have two daughters together.

This sounds like a good old soap opera except that the writing is so excellent that it turned into a classic.

We haven't got Causabon to despise anymore so we have Rosamund to toss around. And as the Nursery rhyme reminds us:

There was a little girl

Who had a little curl

Right in the middle of her forehead

And when she was good, she was very,very good

And when she was bad she was horrid!

She will undoubtedly get much worse before the end of the book . How can she find a Sugar Daddy when shes married to Lydgate? I can imagine GE laughing as she figures out that scenario.

Judy

Oh, of course!! I'm mixing up families up. DOINK!! I am now slapping myself on the forehead.

Thanks for clearing me up, everybody!!

MARNI: fellow DOINK! I was more confused than you.

What do you all think of Bulstrode's method of justifying himself : first getting stolen wealth and then in effect stealing it again from Will?

Pie baking this morning - big time! Plenty of time to think about our friends in Middlemarch as I peel and core the apples. Judy, thank you for taking the time on the Dunkirk "genogram"...it got me thinking about Aunt Julia and the terrible thing she did that caused her to get shut out her family inheritance - which I gather was considerable. She married Dunkirk. She married "down"...was there more to it than that? Clearly from these chapters, she never knew the nature of her husband's "business" and his wealth. I'm thinking there has to be more to that story. The man was wealthy. The man but the man was in "business." In those days was this enough to disinherit her? I can't believe that.

Babi, I find it difficult to understand just WHY Raffles takes such delight seeing Bulstrode squirm. Maybe it's because of his holier-than-thou religious bent. That kind of thing really gets to people and they love to catch them doing something that contradicts their practices.

I'm still torn about this character. JoanK, good question...What do you all think of Bulstrode's method of justifying himself: first getting stolen wealth and then in effect stealing it again from Will? I'm thinking of him as a young man, desiring to do nothing more than missionary work. He begins to justify that desire with making money. If he diverts the money that he earns to worthy causes, isn't that enough to justify the way he gets the money? The business with Sarah's inheritance was particularly reprehensible, but the same principle is at work here. Sarah and her husband would have misused the money, whereas he would use it for God's work. Do you think he really believes this? Does he have a conscience? Eliot writes, "A man who believes in something besides his own greed has a conscience." Do you buy it that Bulstrode believes in something besides his own greed? Do the ends sometimes justify the means?

I think Will was very upset by Mr. Bulstrode offer of assistance to him. He of course is trying to salve his own conscience and Will seems to intuit this. Will knows that B made his money dishonestly and he is too proud to accept money from him since it is tainted and Bis saddened by this but is aware that will wont tell anyone. B is not victim here. He was engaged in selling stolen property plus his decision to deceive Wills grandmother, B wants to attribute to God's Wishes. This false piety is an excuse and he is now going to have to pay for lies and deceptions. His piety does not relieve him of his crimes.

By the way does anyone think Sir James is behaving very oddly. He is acting jealous on Dorothea's account and he seems more protective of her than of his own family. Dorothea does not need him to advise her. Why Sir James is doing this is very strange and his animosity toward Will is great, almost like Casaubon.

And I was pleased that Dorothea is angry toward Sir James and Mrs Cadwallader for speaking in scorn of Will. D is also very jealous when the gossip that Will and Rosamond are perhaps getting attached. Pride is keeping Will and Dorothea apart. Both possess pride in abundance. Pride is the theme in the story that is keeping them apart.

Though the last parting between Dorothea and Will was not friendly, strong feelings persist. Dorothea knows Will is honorable and trustworthy. I seems to me that they will end up together when their love and longing overpowers the pride on both their sides. I think fate is on their side and the story foreshadows that a couple so suited to each other cannot be left torn apart. Unless the author is a hopeless masochist. Faith

FAITH: I agree. At least I hope you're right.

One thing I don't understand: why on earth was Will hanging around Rosamund? Does he enjoy "harmless flirting" as L did? Is he too shallow to see through her? It takes away from the growing impression of Will as serious and honorable.

Maybe he misses music so much, he'll do anything to get it. It's hard to remember that in those days, the only way you could hear music was to make it yourself or know someone who did. (Excuse me a minute, while I put on a CD. Ahhh, that's better!!) Come to think of it, both Fred and Will like music and make it, but none of the women do, except R. who, I'm sure, just uses it as a way of exhibiting herself.

At least, R. scared him away by telling him about the codicil. I'm sure that's the last thing she wanted to do. Serves her right.

Re: "Pride is keeping Will and Dorothea apart."

I think that uncertainty does, as well. Neither one of them is certain that the other loves them. So, what to do? What to do? Dorothea had been, until very recently, a married woman. Until Cas's death, Will had to keep his distance and maintain decorum, couldn't compromise Dorothea by pressing the issue. He is poor and has no steady career yet. How could she love him? He is not sure; he just hopes. Dorothea has not known true love until now. She doesn't know until the end of Will's most recent visit that he loves her. She thought he had feelings for Rosamond. She is quite astounded to realize that he loves her. And at that point he is already out the door. Yes, she could have stopped her carriage when she passed him walking, but she is quite overwhelmed by her feelings. And what about the will? What about the promise her husband had wanted her to make?

"And yet, so heavily did the world weigh on her in spite of her independent energy, that with this idea of Will as in need of such help and at a disadvantage with the world, there came always the vision of that unfittingness of any closer relation between them which lay in the opinion of every one connected with her. She felt to the full all the imperativeness of the motives which urged Will's conduct. How could he dream of her defying the barrier that her husband had placed between them? -- how could she ever say to herself that she would defy it?"

I'm thinking about the word "will." Will is the man D loves. Her husband's will set up a block between her and Will. But "where there is a will, there is a way!"

Re: "why on earth was Will hanging around Rosamund? Does he enjoy "harmless flirting" as L did? Is he too shallow to see through her? It takes away from the growing impression of Will as serious and honorable."

I was wondering about this, too. I think Will enjoys the company of the Lydgates, both Mr. and Mrs. He is friends with both of them. He enjoys talking with the husband and he enjoys singing and, yes, a bit of flirting with the charming wife. Will has had his tribulations in life. He may be somewhat lonely in Middlemarch and he has been moping about with unrequited love.

I don't think Will is shallow at all, just the opposite. But, I think he may be a bit naive where Rosamond comes in. After all, what man can understand her, the wily beauty? Will probably has no clue what is going on in her mind and that she expects all men to be smitten by her, which he is not. He is probably asking for trouble hanging around Rosamond, but he doesn't realize it.

Will doesn't seem to care much for social conventions much of the time, although he is wouldn't want to harm Dorothea. Will is somewhat of a free spirit. He probably doesn't care much if people think that it is shocking that he spends time with Mrs. Lydgate - except D., that is.

Thanks Marni. I really liked "Where theres a will theres a way". I am hoping that the two most complex people in the book(in my opinion) are allowed to outwit their star crossed present situation and find their way to a life together.

Now I will take an opposing view towards Nicholas Bulstrode. I feel that he is truly sorry for what he has done and the way he has lived his life. "And yet-if he could be back in that far off spot with his youthful poverty-why, then he would choose to be a missionary."

"And now, when this respectability had lasted undisturbed for nearly thirty years-when all that preceded it had long lain benumbed in the conciousness-that past had risen and immersed his thought as if with the terrible irruption of a new sense overburdening the feeble being."

"There may be coarse hypocrites , who consciously affect beliefs and emotions for the sake of gulling the world, but Bulstrode was not one of them. He was simply a man whose desires had been stronger than his theoretic beliefs......"

In many ways he has been a good man. His wife and daughters seem to love him. He is supporting a new Hospital and Dr.Lydgate. He has tried to right the wrong he has done to Will. He is being blackmailed by Raffles. So , we begin to understand that GE has turned her prismic sense of the multi-faceted personality on someone who had seemed a very secondary character up till now. The bit player has become a major actor in the drama and one I can't find it in me to dislike. I am in a pitying mode when I contemplate his character.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Judy

When I read that second parting scene I was flabbergasted. I couldn’t believe that, with a (finally) mutually acknowledged love, Dorothea would let Will go away. After I regained my self-control (!), I went back and reread, and I was more struck buy this line than any other: “…there came always the vision of that unfittingness of any closer relation between them which lay in the opinion of every one connected with her.”
Is this really why she passes him by…social pressure? I hadn’t thought of her being like this until now. I always thought she would do what seemed right to her, but I guess loving Will isn’t “right,” after all. Perhaps it lacks the element of self-sacrifice necessary to make any situation appealing. POOR DOROTHEA! Is it the mores and circumstances of her environment that keep her from throwing in her lot with Will and leaving Casaubon’s money behind? I know she hasn’t told him how she feels, which makes his circumstances all the more miserable. I do indeed hope, Judy, that “Where there’s a will, there’s a way”, But there is something ominous about that carriage passing him on the road. I also keep remembering how GE merged the two stories, and now note that Lydgate remembers that Dorothea’s responses to her husband when his health is failing were in sharp contrast to Rosamond’s reaction to his own financial predicament. I hope that GE tricks my uneasy intuition on this point, I really do. Heaven knows she usually does!
Off to shoot a turkey.

MARNI, I fully agree with your last two posts about Will, both as to the uncertainty between him and Dorothea, and the importance to him of the friendship with the Lydgates. There was really nowhere else in Middlemarch where he could be his casual, unconventional self, lie on the rug by the fire, and be welcome.

I was somewhat surprised at his refusal of money that was rightfully his. At the same time there were the double deterrents of Bulstrode's attitude and Raffles hints about the source of the wealth.

Who was it that was trying to recall what else if was that alienated Will' mother from her family? There was more to it than the marriage to the Polish foreigner. Sarah originally ran away to go on the stage, a very shocking thing in those days. Women on the stage were 'no better than they should be'.

As to Raffles, I don't think it was just Bulstrode's 'holier than thou' attitude that caused him to be vicious. He treated his stepson Riggs the same way, and we know he was cruel to Riggs mother. As far as I can see, Raffles is simply a vicious personality who will do as much harm as he can and enjoy it.

JUDY, Bulstrode has become a much more complex character now, hasn't he? I don't despise him, either, as I can see..thanks to Eliot's discerning insights...how human his actions have been. I noted down some very pertinent observations:

"There is no general doctrine which is not capable of eating out our morality if unchecked by the deep-seated habit of direct fellow feeling with individual fellow-men."

"Bulstrode's standard had been his serviceableness to God's cause....had been the mould into which he had constrained his immense need of being something important and predominating."

He had, IMO, a very real need to believe that he was doing important work in God's service. It excused a great many things in his own mind.

JO, I don't think Dorothea herself was so much constrained by the opinion of others. It seems to me that Dorothea recognized and understood that Will could not bear for the world to hold such a ugly opinion of him. His name and his character were all he really had to be proud of. She would not expect him, or want him, to surrender his self-respect;

Babi

Tomorrow, 'stead of apple,

I will have a cherry pie.

It is, you see, because...you see,

I cannot tell a lie!

I had to skip ahead you know,

It meant so much to know, you know!

But I have vowed, not one small slip,

Will ever pass these passive lips.

I do, however, still do read

Your comments and they still plant seed,

Of things I missed or overlooked,

By 'gobbling' this delicious book!

But I'm not sorry friends, nay, nay,

And so I come to you to say:

Let's pray for Peace in every way,

And have a Blessed Thanksgiving Day!!

Love and Bear Hugs, Alliemae

(...forgive me, but Mr. Brooke kept peeping over my shoulder, you know, and he will intrude--that is to say--intrude, you know!)

I love it! Thank you, Alliemae, for a delightful poem and a big smile over Mr. Brooke intrusion.

Babi

MARNI: I like your “Where there’s a will, there’s a way”. Can’t wait to see how this plays out. I agree with JO that that scene between Will and D. was tremendously frustrating. Is it plausible that D. would be so overcome knowing that he loved her that she wouldn’t stop the carriage, but leave him standing in the dust with his hat off?

BABI: perhaps you’re right. There is no way Will can be with D. now without being seen as a money-grubber and confirming all of the suspicions of impropriety that the will gave rise to

JUDY and BABI: you are good-hearted people. I can’t bring myself to feel quite as generous, when I remember Bulstrode’s self-righteousness and love of power. But Eliot is a good-hearted person, too. She can’t give us a thoroughly bad villain to hate (except perhaps Raffles). Every time we really start to dislike someone, she turns things around to see the world through their eyes. Of course, every time we start to really like someone, she shows us their warts and pimples.

BABI: “Who was it that was trying to recall what else if was that alienated Will' mother from her family? There was more to it than the marriage to the Polish foreigner” .

That was me. Will seems to feel that his mother left her family so as not to be involved in their dishonest way of getting money. For that reason, Will would be betraying his mother if he accepted the money now. I didn’t mark the passage, I’ll have to look it up.

Your two quotes about Bulstrode really hit the nail on the head. :

“"There is no general doctrine which is not capable of eating out our morality if unchecked by the deep-seated habit of direct fellow feeling with individual fellow-men."

It is a theoretical goodness that is driving B. – he doesn’t have the ability of putting himself in someone’s place that makes it impossible to do anything to hurt them.

“"Bulstrode's standard had been his serviceableness to God's cause....had been the mould into which he had constrained his immense need of being something important and predominating."

While saying that e is the servant of God, he is really making himself the master of those who are less holy than himself. I’m really glad Eliot didn’t let him become a missionary. For those of you who have read “The Poisonwood Bible”, Bulstrode would have been exactly like the missionary in that book, using his position to bully others with no real understanding of their lives. (For example,if I remember the Poisonwood Bible correctly, the missionary tells the people that they will go to hell for not letting him baptize them in the river, unaware that there are deadly crocodiles in the river that would eat them while he was baptizing them. I can see Bulstrode doing that.).

Oh, ALLIEMAE, how wonderful!! Er, but you didn’t take it too far, too far you know.

Our other two DLs are traveling today I wish them and all of you who are going "over the river and through the woods" a safe journey. And to everyone, a wonderful thanksgiving!!

Alliemae: What fun! Thanks!

Re Bulstrode - I don't feel sorry for him. But, I do think he is becoming rather pathetic. He has been a bully, a hypocrite, a thief, a liar, a briber, a pawnbroker (gasp), and who knows what else. Suddenly, he is terribly frightened that his dark deeds will become public. Also, I think he may be facing his mortality and may be worrying about payment for his sins. He's trying to atone in a small way, hoping that some good deeds will make up for what he has done. Well, I don't think they will. It's too little too late, and too insincere, at that. I hope Bulstrode gets his just desserts.

It's a good time for just desserts! Happy Thanksgiving, everyone! Eat hearty!

Marni

Brilliant, Alliemae...or, you know, quite good and all that sort of thing!
I still don't like Bulstrode, but I suppose some "fellow feeling" makes me pity his "too little, too late" attempt at restitution. His is a judgmental, controlling personality, paraded in the guise of concern for others' spiritual welfare. Remember how he scuttled Fred's little ship with Featherstone? What a miserable conflict he experiences, piling up wealth by depriving others of their rightful inheritance and still persevering in his search for salvation -- his own and everyone else's. And what irony: no one is more miserable than he is, including Will, who leaves without touching the ill-gotten gains. (I still wish D. had gone with him!)

HAPPY THANKSGIVING, 'MARCHERS!

Happy Thanksgiving to all! Just having a quiet day at home with our immediate family today. We had all our family visitors already this fall.

Joan P., thanks so much for the information of payments to Eliot for Middlemarch.

Alliemae, what a clever and cute poem!

Faith, you asked if anyone thought Sir James was behaving oddly. He does seem overly eager to protect Dorothea. However, it could be partially because they are related now and he is looking out for the whole family’s interests. Of course, he does still have a soft spot for her.

I am surprised that there is sympathy among us for Bulstrode. The thought never occurred to me!

I do feel sorry for Will in this section though. As Marni notes, “he hears a lot of information that blows him away.” Wow! I don’t know how he can keep himself together by the end of this section. I am interested to see what is going to happen to him next.

I have to say, I still don’t see Will and Dorothea ever communicating effectively. Many of you are hoping for a romance between them. I have predicted that it won’t happen, but since I have been completely wrong on everything I have predicted, I think you all can be heartened. LOL!

These quotes from Chapter LXI explain how Bulstrode justified his questionable financial dealings: “He was simply a man whose desires had been stronger than his theoretic beliefs, and who had gradually explained the gratification of his desires into satisfactory agreement with those beliefs.” “And to Mr. Bulstrode God’s cause was something distinct from his own rectitude of conduct.” “…became sanctified by a right application of the profits in the hands of God’s servant.” Basically, he justified his actions as OK because he was using the profits for God’s work.

I think it is both Bulstrode’s conscience and the fear of exposure that moves him to contact Will. “He had long poured out utterances of repentance. But to-day a repentance had come which was of a bitterer flavor, and a threatening Providence urged him to a kind of propitiation which was not simply a doctrinal transaction. The divine tribunal had changed its aspect for him; self prostration was no longer enough, and he must bring restitution in his hand.” He had felt repentant, but saw Raffles as a messenger from God demanding more penance, or he would be exposed.

Will refused Bulstrode’s attempt at restitution because, as he said, “My unblemished honor is important to me. It is important to me to have no stain on my birth and connections.” Now, as to why he wanted to remain clean…Could we attribute that in part to his desire for Dorothea? Yes, I think so.

Thanks all for appreciating my 'scribbles'...Hope you all had a warm, cozy and yummy Thanksgiving!

Alliemae

Our oven broke just as the turkey got done and my daughter slicing up sweet potatoes sliced off a small piece from the end of her thumb – ouch (luckily, she’s a doctor. She stopped the bleeding, washed the piece off, reattached it with steri-strips, and finished making her sweet potato casserole. I told her she should lie down, she was going to get a shock reaction, but unluckily she’s a doctor and never listens to my advice. Doesn’t she know that mothers know more than doctors?). But it was a great Thanksgiving anyway. ALLIEMAE said it: warm, cozy, and yummy.

MARNI: “He has been a bully, a hypocrite, a thief, a liar, a briber, a pawnbroker (gasp), and who knows what else.” Do you think this scare will make him better or worse? JO: yes, he certainly has become a pitiful figure.

LAURA: the steps he goes through in justifying his actions and maintaining his image of himself as the most righteous of people are interesting, aren’t they. But this facade he has built up to hide the truth from himself is beginning to crack. I think he has to go either further down or up (in his moral code). We’ll find out next week.

Just below the quote from Will about not wanting a stain on his character is the place where Will explains that his mother ran away from home to avoid having contact with her fathers money.

JOANK, I got a grin out of your "luckily she's a doctor" to "unluckily she's a doctor". Luckily, we are allowed to react like mothers, no matter how old or how smart our kids are.

...Babi

Oh my, it sounds as if you have all survived Thanksgiving - in more ways than one. I write this with a bandaged left thumb, right pinkie and skinned shins - three separate incidents, which you wouldn't want to hear about.

We just finished turkey club sandwiches and the pecan pie my daughter in law backed to show off her skills. It took one hour and fifty minutes to bake - fifty minutes the day before Thanksgiving and another hour yesterday when it turned out to be pecan soup. Would you believe today it really tasted good? Poor thing.

I'm suffering from discussion withdrawal, but only get a few minutes...there's a line to use the computer, like the lines you see for the ladies' restroom. - Will be brief.

Judy, you brought up the thought that has stuck with me since reading these chapters..." the far-off spot" where Bulstrode had a wish to become a missionary....the happiest time of his life - "the spot he would have chosen to awake to find the rest of the dream."

I don't know why that idea has had resonance within my soul. Have we all had a moment like that? A path not taken, but one we remember and consider how the dream might have ended?

I too empathize with Bulstrode...for this reason. He chose a different path - led by circumstance, rather than resolve to follow his dream. Babi, I can understand why Bulstrode has "a very real need to believe that he was doing important work in God's service." He's still dreaming, but trying to justify his choice to turn to business and those decisions he made along the way. It's going to catch up with him, I'm afraid.

I feel Eliot is showing no sympathy towords Raffles...and therefore making him equally unsympathetic in Bulstrode's eyes. I can sense the story coming to a climax, can you? Judy, Bulstrode has turned out to be a major character, hasn't he?

'When I read that second parting scene I was flabbergasted. I couldn’t believe that, with a (finally) mutually acknowledged love, Dorothea would let Will go away." Jo, flabbergasted puts it mildly! I am convinced that Will and Dorothea just don't have what it takes to be open and honest with one another - no matter how good their intentions are. I give up on them! They were my last hope for a happy ending. What I really do not understand though, perhaps you can explain, is how on earth Dorothea came away from that last meeting thinking that she was loved. But she did. She seems to be resigned to life without Will. It's enough to know that he loves her enough to leave her - or something.

Tomorrow early, we begin the thirteen hour drive home with puppy. Look forward to Sunday and spending more time than I have now reading your posts.

I hope you all had a peaceful Thanksgiving and that you are now in the spirit to prepare for the holidays ahead. One of the things I am thankful for - the opportunity to take time outs to talk to you all. A respite in the swirl of activity!

ps. Alliemae, admirable restraint! Cute verse too. What a joy to tune in here!

Haven't posted for a few days. Got caught up in cooking and cleaning and buying necessary things for the Holiday. The troops came with their supplies and devoured their provisions and mine. We laughed till Midnight and today I had to clean again.We prepared the camera and forgot to take pictures. Didnt cut any fingers...did that last year. Had to have surgery to save the finger. Hope all injuries were recoverable and you are all in an after holiday "swoon" of fullness and relaxation.

I knew having "feelings" for Bulstrode would get me a lot of protesters. I will say a few more things regarding this poor soul who is the first(and possibly the last) man in this book to cry. One of the points in his favor was the fact that he was an orphan and very alone. He had that moment of weakness when he stole the fortune of an unknown (to him) person who, like himself, was an orphan. Yet there are other, hidden circumstances about the other orphan (Will) that are yet to be revealed (I think).

Bulstrode may have all the bad characteristics you have mentioned BUT his wife and daughters seem to love him and he is supporting the new Hospital and LYDGATE. GE shows us different aspects of people and now when Bulstrode is being blackmailed by the truly evil Raffles we can possibly feel some compassion for this fellow who none of us would want as a best friend.

Will say more in the future but post Thanksgiving lethargy is overcoming me.......

Judy

There have been a number of orphans in the book, now that you mention orphan. Dorothea and Celia were orphaned, Will, Bulstrode.....Anybody else?

Well, I'm off to check my turkey. I'm roasting a stuffed turkey at home now that we're back from my sister's. I like to have the left-overs!

JOANP: I’ll be thinking of you on the road with the puppy. I hope it goes smoothly. May I tell my daughter that she is not the only one with a Thanksgiving bandage on her thumb?

JUDY: “we can possibly feel some compassion for this fellow who none of us would want as a best friend”

I’m beginning to feel like the Scrooge here. You are right, Bulstrode is to be pitied, if not admired.

Orphans do seem to be a theme in Victorian novels. Probably it was very common, since the death rate was so high. Eliot’s fare better than Dickens’. at least so far.

Yes, Eliot gives Raffles short shrift. She doesn’t seem to do working class people very well – there aren’t many in the book, and they’re all unsympathetic. (I don’t count the Garths as working class).

MARNI: I’ve done that too in the past. What is Thanksgiving weekend without leftovers?

Will's own words at their last meeting convince Dorothea that he loves her: "What I care for more than I can ever care for anything else is absolutely forbidden me --I don't mean merely by being out of my reach, by my own pride and honor -- by everything I respect myself for. Of course I shall go on, living as a man might do who has seen heaven in a trance." He thinks she cannot possibly misunderstand his meaning, but "it could not be fairly called wooing a woman to tell her that he would never woo her."
Dorothea's thoughts: "The thought that she herself might be what Will most cared for did throb through her..." but then she remembers the story of his visits to Rosamond (Mrs. Cadwallader). When he is on the verge of making his second final exit, she puts out her hand and says, "I have never done you an injustice. Please remember me."
"Why should you say that?" said Will with irritation,, As if I were not in danger of forgetting everything else."
Both Dorothea and I are convinced that he means she is the most important thing to him.

Regarding Bulstrode, again: He not only kept the money, he actually knew that Sarah was alive and even where she was, but he "kept her existence hidden, and when other moments followed, he soothed the mother with consolation in the probability that the unhappy young woman might be no more." He was paying someone, presumably Raffles, for keeping the matter quiet "and carrying himself away." It's hard to sympathize, but I suppose we are all in need of some kind of forgiveness.

JO: yes, I took Will's statement that way too. But to be made so happy by it that she sits in a daze and lets Will recede in the distance boggles the mind.

Bulstrode not only kept the money from his wife's children, he has seen Will all this time, knowing that he was broke, and done nothing, apparently felt no guilt until Raffles started blackmailing him.

I got the impression that Bulstrode only recently learned from Raffles his daughter-in-law's last name - Ladislaw. He had known her by her maiden name. So, he wouldn't have known Will was the grandson of his late wife until just recently from Raffles' news.

I could be totally off the wall on this. Maybe it was just that Raffles himself recently learned of Sarah's married name from the letter he took from Riggs.

Marni

JoanK said, “JO: yes, I took Will's statement that way too. But to be made so happy by it that she sits in a daze and lets Will recede in the distance boggles the mind.”

I agree that it is impossible to understand Dorothea’s thinking when she doesn’t pursue Will. The only thing that I have come up with is that she is really serious about not marrying again.

Dorothea thinks, as she is driving away from Will in the carriage:

"....there came always the vision of that unfittingness of any closer relation between them which lay in the opinion of every one connected with her. She felt to the full all the imperativeness of the motives which urged Will's conduct. How could he dream of her defying the barrier that her husband had placed between them? -- how could she ever say to herself that she would defy it?"

(1) She definitely is concerned with the opinions of those around her.

(2) At this point, she did not think she could go against her husband's wishes, and she wondered how Will could think she could.

I found a wonderful miniature portrait of Lord Byron for another discussion and thought I'd share it here. It made me think of Will and how he was described as having that Byronesque romantic look and how he had the bouncing light brown curls. Look at these beautiful curls. Lord Byron in about 1815:

http://englishhistory.net/byron/images.html

Marni

Wow!! Those curls arte gorgeous! OK, that's our picture of Will (perhaps not quite so sensitive looking_ -- what do you think?

Yes, I was trying to remember if Bulstrode knew that the daughter had married a Ladislaw. He must have at one time, but he could have forgotten. OK, I won't criticize him for not offering Will money earlier.

Perhaps I'm just in a bad mood! Most of our neighbors are wonderful people, but unfortunately the exception lives right next door. She rang and rang the doorbell at one AM last night waking us all up. Her guests had parked in front of our house, so my son parked in front of her house. There were plenty of parking places a few feet away, but she considers the places in front of her house as HERS (they aren't -- there is no reserved parking here. When it snows, we respect the place that each person has dug out as theirs, but otherwise, we park where we can.) She would rather spend half an hour waking us up than walk 20 feet. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

Oh, Joan! I'd be so angry!! One a.m.!! Grrrrr is right. I have a new next door neighbor who is a X?#%!@*!! and I can emphathize. My neighbor is a super neat-nik. I should be happy.?? No matter what we do with our house and yard, it is a slobby mess compared with my neighbor's. And she doesn't let us forget it. We are not on talking terms. I'm pretty easy to get along with and I never thought that would happen to me. It's hard not to get along with a next door neighbor. Good luck!

I don't know for sure if Bulstrode knew the runaway daughters name was Ladislaw, but I suppose it likely that Raffles would have told him he brought the news that he had found her. Casaubon certainly knew that his Aunt Julia had married a Polish man and that Will was his cousin.

Isn't it rather strange that all these interrelated people should turn up in the same small town. Casaubon and Will; Bulstrode/Raffles/Will; Raffles and Riggs. I'm really half expecting Riggs to turn up again in this story. Surely there's more to his appearance in this story than what has happened so far.

Babi

Joan K and Marni..Your sorrow is my salve. I thought I had the worse neighbor in the world. Mine has a huge watch dog that barks day and night and is very scary. He is the only person on the street that has a giant wall around his property. He is also the only one with a pool. Strange women come and go but I've never seen the same one twice. Once, two detectives came to my door to ask me questions about his daughters "drug sales". Yeek!

Back to MM. I do believe that Will did not want Dorothea to know his family background because of his shame around it. He refused the money for that reason and because he wanted to come back to MM (and Dorothea) after he had proved his worth in some way. Sort of like a knight who must first slay the dragon before he claims the fair maids hand. This novel is a Romance and so will leave us with a smile or a tear. I'm betting on the smile, but then, I'm an optimist.

Judy

Yikes, I guess my neighbor isn't so bad -- not compared to Judy's and Marni's (although my husband tells me it was 3 AM, not 1AM when she started ringing our doorbell -- I was too groggy to read the clock). At least, she has stopped playing her radio full blast at 7 AM Saturday morning.

On to MM neighbors. Yes, it strains belief that all these interrelated people would wind up in the same small town. But that is a novel for you. Aren't you glad we don't live in one.

I like the idea of Will as a knight in shining armor who must slay the dragon to get the "girl". That is exactly what it's like, although I'll bet we won't get to see him do it. He'll just come back at some later point.

Our traveling DLs should be back. I hope the journey was a good one.

One weary traveller checking in...a good trip, considering we had a four month old pup passenger - who broke all records I've ever heard of. Despite frequent stops - every two hours, with fifteen minute walks each stop, the pup did nothing on the way. Same thing coming home. A fourteen hour ride with stops and she held on until we let her out of the car at our house where she kept going, and going, and going. We were very THANKFUL, but don't understand how she did that!

Joan, thanks for the consoling words re thumb, still bothering me...bandaid keeps getting wet.

hahaha, Judy, I did the same thing...took the camera all the way to Memphis and took two photos in three days. Well, the memories are still with me...for now.

Do you believe that we are coming to the end of Book Six today? Judy, I'm thinking of your idea that this is a Romance and so will turn out happily. Is that part of the definition of a Romance? A happy ending? What if there is no happy ending...can we still call it a Romance?

So many interesting posts! We seem to be talking ourselves into a better understanding of these complex characters.

The story seems to be coming to a head with all of the principles gathering into the one story. I had thought that the climactic moment would have been the revelation that Will was the rightful heir to the Casaubon fortune...and then the Dunkirk fortune. When Will turned his back on Bulstrode's attempt (not enough in my estimation) and left town without claiming it, that potential news was diffused and the story moves on, Will still without the knowledge that he should have inherited something from his grandmother's family - should be sharing what Dorothea has inherited. But wait, we don't know that either.

Maybe there is a perfectly good and legitimate reason grandma was disinherited. I'm not sure why it was so disgraceful that she married this Dunkirk, unless it was known that his money was "dirty" or something - but thought that was a well kept secret, even from her. Was she disinherited simply because she chose to elope? I'm sure we will find that out before "the end".

Also, Will doesn't know, (or does he), that Dorothea has her own inheritance and stands to inherit even more from Uncle Brooke. Do you think that if Will knew that, things would be different for him with Dorothea? Why can't they be open with one another? Dorothea would have gladly given up Casaubon's money for Will - and had plenty for them to live on. I keep wondering who stands to inherit Casaubon's estate if Dorothea does marry Will. Marni, you are on to something, I think. Marriage doesn't seem to be high on Dorothea's "to-do" list. Maybe she means it when she says she doesn't want to try that again. A religious life - like St. Teresa's seems to fit her temperament more.

At any rate, she seems anxious to turn her attention and resources to good works. Enter Caleb Garth, Fred - and Mary, Farebrother too.

Ooh, and let's not forget Rosamond. With Will gone, ennui sets in...she's bored, unhappy - and dangerous, wouldn't you think? Poor Lydgate!

And Bulstrode - "poor Bulstrode" - he thought he had found the salve for his conscience. And Will left him, weeping like a baby. What now? He seems a broken man. How will God judge him now? How do YOU judge him? Eliot writes - "A man who believes in something besides his own greed has a conscience." It seems that most of us have some pity for him - but still have reservations about his true motives.Do you see a man motivated by greed, by his own personal greed? Do you see him as a man of conscience? He certainly is a psychological mystery, isn't he? Jo, didn't you marvel at the way he justified keeping Sarah's inheritance from her? He would put it to God's work, she would have spent it on perverse activities.

So we leave Book Six with Bulstrode weeping with all this money that he always intended to use for good works, we have Dorothea eager to do something beneficial to the community with her money, and Lydgate desperate to find a solution to his financial woes so he can continue his work at the hospital....

Joan- a romance is enchantment, fascination, passion, isn't it? I've not seen any of that yet. I'm waiting for tomorrow.

Thanks, Marni, for explaining Dorothea’s motivations in your post #285. I do remember reading those thoughts now. I hope Dorothea doesn’t continue to let other people’s opinions influence her life so much. It is one thing to act appropriately in society, but quite another to let others’ opinions dictate what should be her decisions.

As for Bulstrode, I still find myself unsympathetic towards him, but am keeping all of the group’s points of view in mind.

Hey Andy, Laura. it is so good to be back! I'm still scratching my head over Dorothea's conclusion that Will loves HER...do you understand that? Jo, when Will tells her - "What I care for more than I can ever care for anything else is absolutely forbidden me" - doesn't Dorothea think he's talking about Rosamond? I can see where she sees him as being honorable and leaving Middlemarch because of these inappropriate feelings for Rosamond, but can't quite make the leap in understanding why Dorothea thinks he loves herself. I can see she really believes this - she's feeling all warm and fuzzy inside. It seems enough for her to face life alone without him and turn to other matters. Can you help? What's your guess? Will they get together before we leave Middlemarch?

JOAP: I'm glad you're back. My daughter is having the same problem keeping her thumb dry and clean. She keeps saying she needs to buy the material to make a waterproof bandage, but she doesn't.

ALF: “enchantment, fascination, passion” Sorry, no enchantment in the next installment – but plenty of stirring of the pot. Even if D. and W. do get together, I think the passion will be implied – this is a Victorian novel. I find fascination in all the segments – I hope you do too.

Here is the quote from Will that I promised, as he refuses Bulstrode’s offer of money. p. 622 ff. Penguin.

Will asks: “And was that business ... a thoroughly dishonorable one - nay one that, if its nature had been made public. might have ranked those concerned in it with theives and convicts?”

Bulstrode answers that it is not for Will to ask that.

“Yes it is” said Will ...It is important to me to have no stain on my birth and connections. And now I find there is a stain which I cannot help. MY MOTHER FELT IT, AND TRIED TO KEEP AS CLEAR OF IT AS SHE COULD, AND SO WILL I”.

Earlier, Will had said that his grandmother never knew why his mother had run away from the family. She ran away to stay away from the families shady business, and Will will do the same.

Yes, Joan, there is fascination in the literature, but not in the affairs of the heart.
What fascinates me most is the fact that any of them know enough to get out of their own way.

How does D. know that Will loves her? I thought it was the last exchange:

D: Please remember me.

W: Why should you say that?...As if I were not in danger of forgetting everything else".

That's pretty clear. (Especially if we imagine his expression when he said it).

Joan, when Will said..."Why should you say that?...As if I were not in danger of forgetting everything else" - he said this with irritation..."he had really a movement of anger against her. So is that it? That's how she knows that he loves HER? Because he became angry with her. ...Parting is easier for her to manage because she now knows "he had acted so as to defy reproach."

It seems that when her carriage overtakes him on the path...she has yet another chance to stop and pour out her true feelings. And chooses again to leave things as they are. His honor is more important than her feelings for him. I don't think this is how it goes in Romance novels!

But look at Will...bitter. "After all he had no assurance that she loved him." Too bad she didn't give him a few parting words to make his departure easier too. Do you think he'll be back?

Joan, when Will said "As if I were not in danger of forgetting everything else" it was in response to D's plea, "Please remember me." I took that to mean he would indeed forget everything else in the world before he would ever forget her, and I thought that Dorothea thought the same thing. Did Joan K quote that line, too? Or do you mean me, Jo?

"How could he dream of her defying the barrier that her husband had placed between them? -- how could she ever say to herself that she would defy it?"
Marni, why does Dorothea allow Casaubon to determine her future and Will's future where she is concerned at this point? He is dead and she is back at Lowick clearing out papers, etc. when she writes a note telling him that she cannot devote herself to the activity of indexing and organizing his research because she doesn't believe in his project. Why doesn't she then assert herself in the interest of her own and Will's happiness?

I don't see Dorothea being ruled by Casaubon's DEAD HAND but that danged codicil will besmirch Will's honor in the town if she allows folks to think that her husband had reason to include it in his will. In a sense, Casaubon wins after all. I think it's more than jealousy, though - I sense there is another reason he does not want Will to come into this property. Maybe it has to do with his aunt, Will's grandmother and the reason why she was left out of the will...

Jo, you quoted the lines first and then JoanK, - both attempting to explain how D. came away from that meeting convinced that she loved and was loved. I keep asking you all the same question because I don't understand why she let him go if she KNEW he loved her. No, I take that back...what I really don't understand is how she let him go without making sure that he knew SHE loved HIM! Do you suppose that she thought she had been clear about her feelings? He leaves without knowing, right? Do you see this as a Romance novel? I did some hunting...just as I thought. To be a "Romance" we need a n "HEA" ending...

Definitions of Romance novels on the Web:

A romance novel is a novel from the genre currently known as romance. The genre has two strict criteria: * the story must focus on the relationship and romantic love between a man and a woman;* the end of the story must be positive, leaving the reader believing that the protagonists' love and relationship will endure for the rest of their lives. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_novels

MORE from "Romance" authors:

Rebecca Sinclair (mouse@ici.net): There are two answers; one from a romance writer's perspective, one from a romance reader's. For the former, defining the romance is to breathe life into two endearing characters who were meant to be together ... they just need the author to show them how their love can endure. For the latter, my definition would be almost the same, except that the emphasis is always on the romance, on the way these two people's lives intertwine and become inseparable until a happily-ever-after ending is a foregone conclusion. In no longer becomes a matter if the couple will happily-ever-after, but how that sometimes monumental feat is possible. Authors Define "Romance"

Do you think modern Romance novels were much different from the Victorian?

Do you see Eliot tying up each love story (any love story?) neatly with happy endings before the last installment?

Jo: Re your questions: "Why does Dorothea allow Casaubon to determine her future and Will's future where she is concerned at this point? He is dead and she is back at Lowick clearing out papers, etc. when she writes a note telling him that she cannot devote herself to the activity of indexing and organizing his research because she doesn't believe in his project. Why doesn't she then assert herself in the interest of her own and Will's happiness?"

I think that Dorothea is in a state of transition. She is maturing, learning to understand herself, to understand her dead husband, to realize that she loves Will, to recognize that Will loves her. This has not all been easy for her. She had been very naive and idealistic. Some of her dreams were destroyed.

I was thinking about her breakdown after her husband died. She must have had such mixed feelings then. She had loved him, hated him, pitied him, despised him. Yes, she made the decision not to complete his work. That was a step forward. But, it was not an easy decision for her. And now the whole humiliating awful codicil with everyone knowing about it, and poor Will so hurt.

So much has happened to Dorothea in such a short time: Her husband died. She may still feel guilty that she played a part in his death. People are pulling at her from different directions. Her sister wants her to stay with her. Mrs. Cadwaller thinks she should get married again soon. She is in love. And now she discovers that Will actually loves her. And her husband's dead hand is - yes - is hovering over her. She will lose his estate if she marries Will; but more important, (she doesn't care so much about money) Will will look bad in the eyes of the townspeople. The poor girl must be overwhelmed!

I think Dorothea is in a quandry right now. She will have to think everything through. She needs time to make some rational decisions. I wouldn't be surprised if things get worse before they get better. However, I believe we will see them together and happy at the end.

I do think that this is a romantic novel. I do think that Dorothea and Will are the main couple of focus, even though we have watched closely the romantic (or not) developments of several other couples - Mary and Fred, (Mary and Farebrother,) Lydgate and Rosamond, even Celia and Sir James. But, to me, Dorothea and Will have always been the center, from the very beginning. From the very moment they met we have been anticipating a love affair. I have been cheering them on the whole way, waiting for their first kiss with bated breath. They still haven't kissed. (It's like a soap opera!) But, all the sweeter when it happens. And I'm sure it will happen because I'm a romantic.

Marni

Is Dorothea afraid to say how she feels for fear he will not leave without her? Is she unprepared for a life in which one’s circumstances are governed by chance and not by your assigned place within a society, by your economic and social status? I think yes. I think that’s why she makes reference to the disapproval of others that such an action would elicit. It’s still risky to cut yourself off from your support system. Imagine the dangers she could face in that era. Sarah Ladislaw faced them and succumbed at an early age, and I imagine that wasn’t unusual. I wonder if Eliot wants her readers to be indignant with a world where a woman, especially a woman like Dorothea, is endangered if she asserts her independence.
I don’t think this could ever be seen as a romance novel, even if she does tie up some loose ends and allow for a couple to have a happy ending. It’s a problem novel, IMO. We are led into the workings of many minds and then permitted to see how complex natures affect the lives of those around them, and at the same time we are made aware of the effects that this particular society and the changes that are taking place have upon their lives. Which characters are totally comfortable with things as they are? How do they contrast with the ones who are not comfortable? Is Dorothea happy or even contented with her lot as long as she can plan for a productive, useful life of some sort? It will be interesting to reach the end and see if we can identify an overriding problem or theme.

I just started reading again chpt 63. Right in the beginning we see the following: "Lydgate is indefatigable, and is making a fine thing of Bulstrode's institution. He is preparing a new ward in ease of the cholera coming to us."

I just read something in the Rhodes biography of John James Audubon (that we are discussing in another SeniorNet group) which pertains to Middlemarch. It makes Lydgate's work with cholera seem extremely significant.

There was a huge worldwide cholera pandemic raging in 1832 in England, in Ireland, Canada, America, France, Germany, Poland, Russia, Afghanistan, and in a number of other countries. By July, 1832, New York was reporting 100 cholera deaths per day.

Audubon wrote, "That dreadful scourge the cholera was devastating the land and spreading terror around its course."

A Philadelphia physician friend of Audubon wrote, "The cholera has raged dreadfully in some localities here....I was engaged on Monday superintending the removal of sick prisoners from the jail in Arch St. at the request of the city authorities - I was there three times during the day - 60 were sick at one time, the suffering and agony of the dying wretches was an awful sight to witness, 26 died there that day, and about as many more who were removed to the various local hospitals....The newspapers do not give an accurate account, because numbers are cured in the early stages whose cases are never reported. The statements of deaths are more accurate and I suppose the greatest mortality has not exceeded 100 per diem. Today only 26 deaths have been reported, there will probably be more tomorrow...My time is usefully, at least, if not profitably employed, night and day. Cholera, cholera, cholera!!!"

Marni

Oh, MARNI, thanks for reminding us. All life was so tenuous in those days, and epidemics were so common: we are used to assuming that Will, d, and our other characters have long lives in front of them, but of course they may not.

I wonder if that definition of a romance novel was current in Eliot's time. If it was, she probably would not call hers a romance novel. Whether Will and D. get together or not, even though they are the main focus there is so much else in this book.

Good morning, shoppers...

We picked a fine time to reach the climax in our Middlemarch adventure! It's hard to put down now - even if reading time is limited because of other obligations and distractions.
It is heartening that you can take time for quiet reflection with a good book during this hectic season. I find it rejuvenating, don't you? Like a workout in the gym during the work day. New perspectives and energy...

Jo, yes, a "problem" novel - perhaps with a satisfying romantic ending. Eliot is making us wait to the very end to understand her perspective and identify the "problem" as she sees it. We've got to remember, as you say, that she writes at a time when a woman suffers when asserting her independence. Will's mother AND his grandmother are examples of what might happen if she breaks with society's expectations.

IF Eliot wants us to be "indignant" with such a world, all she has to do is keep the lovers apart, prevent the romantic ending that we are hoping for, don't you think?

Marni, when you write that Dorothea and Will are the main couple of focus - are you downplaying Lydgate's role in the piece, or are you simply observing the couple aspect? I keep remembering that Lydgate was the subject of one story, later blended into Middlemarch and am expecting that he and Dorothea will emerge as the principals to take the final bow.

"Cholera, cholera, cholera"...thank you, Marni for moving us this morning into Lydgate's complex world...his time and attention divided between the tensions at home, his medical practice and his work at the hospital, his knowledge of the oncoming threat of cholera. Not much time for research, is there? He does seem to be spending much time at the hospital, preparing for an onslaught of the dreaded disease, which has yet to make its way to Middlemarch. At this point the new ward is ready, but not put to use. I'm expecting that when cholera does reach Middlemarch, Lydgate's worth will be recognized and he will gain acceptance. Were you surprised to learn that all the work he does at the hospital is unpaid? No wonder he is having difficulty making ends meet!

Joan, I certainly was surprised, and it seems doubly unfair given his circumstances. I now expect cholera to emerge as a major player in the outcome of events. (No, I haven't read ahead!)

Living in a civilized world it is difficult to understand the severity of such a disease as cholera. This novel is 150 years old and still today the prognosis , if untreated for cholera is poor. 25-50% of cases become fatal. It's not too hard to imagine a pandemic in any of the developing countries that have inferior drinking and sanitation practices. Poor Lydgate bit off more than he could chew with this disease.

Funny, I can understand how Dorothea perceived that Will loved her, but it is her reaction to that perception that I struggled with. I reached the point where I figured it was best to read onward and maybe things would become clearer. Not in this section though…I’ll have to start the next section now…LOL! Nothing like something to keep me motivated. Actually, I liked the beginning of Book Seven the best of any section we have read thus far. Lots of action.

Is this a romance novel? In my mind, this is a novel about relationships. Just think of all the relationships that come into play and affect Lydgate and Rosamond’s marriage, for example. I did not read Middlemarch hoping for romance (though I am not sure what I expected) and so I am not disappointed.

I can’t wait to see how Eliot brings everything to some conclusion. I think it will be neat, but I don’t expect happiness to be had for all characters.

Great comments in post #304, Marni. However, I can’t say that I have been anticipating a love affair, much less cheering Dorothea and Will on the whole way. LOL! I love the diversity of opinions in this group!

I had not really thought much about cholera when reading this section’s first chapter. I thank you all for bringing its importance to my attention. I focused on Lydgate’s unwillingness to consider help, specifically this quote from the last part of the chapter:

“He knew as distinctly as possible that this was an offer of help to himself from Mr Farebrother, and he could not bear it. So strangely determined are we mortals, that, after having been long gratified with the sense that he had privately done the Vicar a service, the suggestion that the Vicar discerned his need of a service in return made him shrink into unconquerable reticence. Besides, behind all making of such offers what else must come? -- that he should "mention his case," imply that he wanted specific things. At that moment, suicide seemed easier. “

Who can Lydgate talk to? Rosamond is far from an understanding wife (more on her later), plus a woman with limited abilities. Bulstrode seems to be a logical choice. I am not sure who else Lydgate is “in good with” in Middlemarch and vicinity.

Ironic that Farebrother may have been his last, best chance, Laura. Lydgate's pride and consciousness of his own superiority have been part of his problem all along. He turned colleagues and Middlemarchers against him before he even started his practice, and now that he needs help he has few places to turn.

I was also surprised to learn that Lydgate was not paid for his services to the hospital. On reflection tho', I believe the agreement was that he would offer his services w/o charge, in exchange for being given a free hand with his research and his 'new' ideas of appropriate treatment of fevers.

It seems Lydgate is one of those people who love being able to do others a service, finding it very gratifying, yet shrinks from the idea of someone being a benefactor to him. There is quite a bit of pride in Lydgate and just now it's taking a considerable beating. I like Lydgate, but I can't help thinking that a bit of humility would be highly beneficial to his character.

Did you notice the slight change in Mrs. Vincey's opinion of Mary Garth. She is very unhappy at the idea that one of the Garths is Fred's choice; she had higher hopes for him. But during the New Years Day party, to which Mary was invited along with the Farebrothers, she has a slight change of heart. "She thought that if Fred wish her to invite Mary again she would make no objection, the children being so pleased with her." Mrs. Vincey dotes on her children and cannot think anyone too bad if her darlings like them.

Babi

At Vincy's party, Lydgate is a changed man. He is dreadfully unhappy and shows it in his boredom, by snapping at people, by using a "careless" tone. He and his wife seem obviously avoiding each other. When Farebrother tries to get Lydgate to talk, "he could not bear it....Besides, behind all making of such offers what else must come? -- that he should " mention his case," imply that he wanted specific things. At that moment, suicide seemed easier."

This last line really shocked me. It really shows the state of Lydgate's mind. He is very desperate. Lydgate can't focus on anything except his debts which are exhorbitant. His uncontrollable wasting time and preoccupation adds to his intense bitterness and this alienates his wife even more.

Their marriage now is a complete and total shambles. They can barely speak to one another. Lydgate still loves her, although he is extremely distraught and disappointed with her. He does not want to lead a life "without affection." He tries to explain to her about finances, and she simply will not listen. She does not love him at all. He feels dread and they both are feeling intense bitterness.

Rosamond now has "an intense determination to hinder what Lydgate liked to do" regarding finances. This is ominous indeed. We see the extent to which Rosamond will go when she interferes with her husband's plans to sell their house.

I am feeling an aura of evil from Rosamond. I know that is a strong word. But, she seems to be a person who will stop at nothing to get what she wants.

I think that Eliot presents such a realistic picture of the maddening frustrations in the relationship of Lydgate and Rosamond. I think the only other Victorian author who has struck me this way is Henry James.

I so much wanted to continue reading the book that to stop myself I read the Introduction by Lynn Sharon Schwartz who it says is an Author of fourteen books of fiction , non-fiction and poetry. The Intro is some 14 pages long and she states a few interesting thoughts with which I agree (This is the B&N Classics Edition).

"To bring him (Bulstrode) down,Eliot uses a classic ploy. A stranger comes to town bearing secrets-Bulstrode's past literally returning to destroy him. As with Causabon, Eliot is unsparing, yet at same time she respects the banker's tormented conscience.

The scenes of his guilt and shame are excruciating. In the Novel's most desolate tones ,they confirm that every past choice persists in the presents and continues to shape the future."

I think I resonated to that desolation and without condoning Bulstrode I realized what he had done to himself. He too realized that and thus becomes a major figure in the book since he carries with his actions and sorrow a major message from the author. At least this is what it seems to me. The message of course is :What is done is done.

I could not relate to Causabon, not with sorrow or with pity. Yet somehow Bulstrodes misery is so sincere and his sorrow so real that he becomes tragic rather than horrible. Where one draws the line I really don't know. It is not a matter of logic nor intellect. When I think of tragedy I think of Medea or King Lear. Perhaps Bulstrode does not reach that level but still an aura of tragedy surrounds him.

Probably haven't convinced anybody but would like to hear your thoughts.

Judy

Yes, we see two potential tragedies developing here: Lydgate and Bulstrode. I think the way Eliot shows their characters and thoughts as they each get more and more penned in is one of the things that makes her a really great writer. Whether you like Bulstrode or not, you can feel his pain very realistically as he twists and turns in his mind to try to keep this false image of himself which is everything to him. And Lydgate, struggling to hold on to the equally false image of Rosamund and their marriage.

At first I thought Rosamund was just silly and spoiled, but we begin to see that she is much worse. Evil may not be too strong a word for her. Her telling Will about the codicil is nothing but malicious. At first, the problem with the marriage seemed to be lack of money, but even if Lydgate had had plenty of money and supported her the way she wanted, I suspect out of sheer boredom this malicious streak would have gotten bigger and bigger, and made L. and everyone else unhappy.

Good morning!

I just love coming in here first thing in the morning and reading the different perspectives. You provide so much to think about throughout the day!

"Two potential tragedies," JoanK...maybe more in the works? Let's consider Lydgate's situation first, as the mention of suicide has caught our attention. Eliot has the cunning habit of inserting these hot buttons into our subconscious before she circles back to them in later chapters. Suicide is sure an attention-grabber, but on closer inspection, she doesn't come out and say that Lydgate is this desparate...yet.

Judy, when considering "tragedy" - Eliot has made it quite clear that Lydgate's "tragic flaw" is his pride. His pride keeps him from admitting he needs help. Though he won't open up to Farebrother, don't you feel better knowing that he is concerned about him, Laura? He recognizes that Lydgate is "a proud man who "shrinks as from a burn from talking about his private affairs." At least he made the effort to reach out to him and hopefully Lydgate will remember this if and when he reaches such desperate straits as Eliot hinted at with the word, "suicide." Farebrother, at this point, does not know how desperate his financial situation really is - thinks he has wealthy family supporting him.

********************************

Jo, you mention another flaw, closely associated with pride - Lydgate's sense of superiority - superiority over everyone, including his wife. Eliot seems sympathetic to Lydgate, painting Rosamond as "evil," as some of you characterize her. I suppose he is showing a bit of humility, Babi, when he admits that he is responsible for their situation.

Still, I'm wondering if we are being too hard on her. I'm beginning to suspect that Eliot is trying say something to us about a wife's difficult position at this time.

Rosamond has been brought up as well as a girl could be - educated and pampered, happy, sociable with understandable expectations that life would be "good" with Lydgate. He gave her no reason to believe otherwise with his handsome engagment gifts. He must bear some of the blame; it is not all Rosamond who has caused this marriage to crumble. In Eliot's words, Rosamond's husband regards her "negative character, want of sensibility, disregard for his wishes, no devotedness, docile submission..."

Does Eliot really regard such qualities in a woman admirable? Somewhere Lydgate likens her to an animal in her understanding of the seriousness of their situation. She's more his pet than his wife, his partner. What is Eliot saying as she criticizes Rosamond for bucking under such expectations and taking matters into her own hands? Do you really blame Rosamond for going to her father, or for taking the house off the market until she gets a response from the letter she wrote to Uncle Godwin? Yes, it is outrageous behavior at this time for a wife to behave this way, but do you understand it? Does Eliot?

Well, I just finished this week's section. Lydgate has really gone to the dogs. In his desperation and depression, he tried taking opium and then began to gamble. Remember how he had despised Farebrother for his gambling way back when? Look at Lydgate now. He was in the process of losing rapidly at the Green Dragon when Fred was able to interrupt his losing streak and get him away.

Yes, Fred is back at the gambling tables enjoying the atmosphere that he has missed, although seeing Lydgate lose shocked Fred from actually putting money down on the table which he had just been about to do. Farebrother gave Fred a talking-to about how he could lose Mary if he didn't stay on the straight and narrow. Fred is a gambling addict. It is in his system and always will be, I'm afraid. He needs to attend Gamblers Anonymous.

Lydgate finally reaches the lowest of the low. He brings himself to ask Bulstrode for a loan. This, to the proud Lydgate, must have been the most humiliating thing of all. Not only that, but Bulstrode turns him down for the loan and, icing on the cake, tells Lydgate that he (B.) will not be continuing to fund the cholera hospital. Where can Lydgate go from here?

Marni

1st Gent. / Where lies the power, there let the blame lie too.

2nd Gent. / Nay, power is relative; you cannot fright
The coming pest with border fortresses,
Or catch your carp with subtle argument.
All force is twain in one: cause is not cause
Unless effect be there; and action's self
Must needs contain a passive. So command
Exists but with obedience.

Something to consider. It works both ways, doesn't it? Rosamond would not have the power she has over Lydgate if he didn't submit to it. What hold does she have over him?

I'm so sorry, Marni, I did not intend to ignore your post - we were posting together. Am on my way out now... will be back to consider your question this afternoon. Have a good day!

Re: "Rosamond would not have the power she has over Lydgate if he didn't submit to it. What hold does she have over him?"

Rosamond does have power over Lydgate. She completely manipulates him. He still, hopelessly, loves her. He can't help himself. It seems he has been drawn to destructive relationships with beautiful women for some reason. He is trying everything in his power to try to pursuade Rosamond to stop spending so much money, to live within their rather meager means, but to no avail. At every one of his remonstrations, she turns on the tears and turns her neck. She beats him at every turn. He is totally frustrated and doesn't know what to do or where to go. He has even contemplated suicide.

I think the saddest thing I read about their relationship was when Eliot said Lydgate didn't want to live without affection.

Marni

Ah yes,Marni, afffection. Lydgate too is an orphan. No one of his relations offer him affection of any kind. He has come to associate womanly affection with feminine beauty. Was his Mother beautiful?

L is so accomplished intellectually we tend to forget about his other "needs". He wants it all from Rosamund . But the lady sees the marriage as a game she must win, no matter what the cost to her husband. She is shallow and out for herself.

In chapter LIX we have the following description of R: "She was oppressed by ennui, and by that dissatisfaction which in womens minds is continually turning into a trivial jealousy, referring to no real claims, springing from no deeper passion than the vague exactness of egoism, and yet impelling action as well as speech."

In Chapt. LXVIII we have:" In the British climate there is no incompatibility between scientific insight and furnished lodgings: the incombatibility is chiefly between scientific ambition and a wife who objects to that kind of residence".

So it seems that Lydgate like Bulstrode is paying for his mistake. Perhaps L is an acomplished thinker in medicine but his understanding of human nature is seriously flawed.

Judy

I agree that Lydgate’s pride is strong but we must remember that appearances count. What kind of bearing would it have on his practice if word got around MM regarding his finances (or lack of)? The impression would not be favorable and it would reflect on his practice as well as their reputation. Ros is not pleased and Lydgate knows it- "When we were married every-one felt that your position was very high. I could not have imagined then that you would want to sell our furniture, and take a house in Bride Street, where the rooms are like cages. If we are to live in that way let us at least leave Middlemarch."
The impression would indeed not be favorable. She’s very disappointed as well as discontent in her marriage and you can bet the romance has gone out the window, as well. Neither of them will compromise for the other but opium? For crying out loud, that is suicide! The fool! Between the opiate and the gambling his goose will surely be cooked in no time.

Ooopsi! I got my Roman numbers mixed...meant for us to discuss Chapters LXIII - LXVII this week, not to include LXVIII - Bulstrode's tragedy. (It's fixed in the header now.) If you've read Chapter 68 already, can you put it on the back burner until next week? It's a big chapter and we need to give it the time it deserves...

Andy, here I'd been thinking, hoping that once cholera makes its way to Middlemarch, Lydgate's preparations would have spared the town and he'd be some sort of a hero. All would be well, his practice would improve and he would be able to support his little wife as she thinks she deserves. Who said she thought that no matter how much he made, Rosamond would still be bored. I agree with that. She needs Will to come back to town to sing with her!

So, Andy, Lydgate's preparations would not have stopped the cholera epidemic? You think he's a goner with his addictions? It seems he tried the opium and didn't like it. He seems cured of the billiard gambling too - realizing how he appears to others. His pride is hurt. But the fact that he is grasping for some sort of relief from the circumstances at home - that does not look good. How many of you think he's desparate enough to commit suicide?

Judy, Marni...I am sensing that you are both seeing a need in Lydgate...perhaps NOT A NEED TO LOVE, but rather a need TO BE loved and accepted. Everything he does to show tenderness and understanding towards Rosamond backfires, leaving her more disgusted and dissatisfied with him as a man. Isn't this painful to read?

I do not consider Rosamond evil but she is like a spoiled and sullen child when she can not get her own way. She will be very spiteful toward Lydgate and thinks he is too mean to spend money on-her. She acts as if he had the money to spend and will not understand Lydgate when he attempts to explain their finances too her. She is not very pleased either when Ned Plymdale is to be married and Ned's mother rubs it in that Ned has lots more money than Lydgate. Of course this plants the seeds in her mind that she was wrong to turn down Ned. Lydgate is very disappointed in his life. He is involved with everyday struggles and his vision was that his life would be spent curing diseases and making giant medical advances. Indeed a spoiled wife and backward patients he has to beg for balances to be paid endlessly worrying about money were never part of his vision. He is truly depressed at this point in the book.

I hope everyone had a wonderful holiday. I sure did with a Thanksgiving with Daughter, Granddaughters 2, and Grandson 1 their mates and 9 great grands. Then an even bigger event Saturday when a third granddaughter got married at the Sterling Hotel here (lovely old Victorian bed and breakfast with ball rooms) And all my children, grands, and some of the greats were there so I am family full and loving it. Faith

I agree that Rosamund is too shallow to be considered "evil", but trying to get through to her is like hitting a brick wall, as Lydgate has discovered. She is so completely self-centered, she considers that everything she wants is reasonable and everything she does must be right. Anyone who attempts to argue with her, explain facts to her, or in anyway fail her, is simply a 'disagreeable person'. In her own mind, her behavior has been perfect and no one could possibly fault her in any way. Even her supposedly meek offering of her jewels to Lydgate was a way of rubbing in both her faultlessness, and his failure to meet her expectations. I don't think there is anything Lydgate or anyone else could do or say that would penetrate her total self-approval and selfishness.

Lydgate using opium is shocking to us today, but I believe it was regarded differently in those days. When it first came to notice in medical use it was considered a marvel and a great blessing. Lydgate, as a doctor, would of course consider that he knew how to use it appropriately. So far, it does not appear he has used it enough to become addicted.

Babi

FAITH: how wonderful. A true thanksgiving.

JOANP: "Somewhere Lydgate likens her to an animal in her understanding of the seriousness of their situation. She's more his pet than his wife, his partner."

That is exactly right. In the scene where he tells R. for the first time about the furniture, I was infuriated by his refusal to explain the situation to her. Of course she doesn't understand it. He indeed does treat her like a child. She has been treated that way all her life, and of course acts like one.

And of course he never really discusses alternatives with her, just says that she should do what he tells her. I can understand why she's not happy with that. Yes, you have to blame them both.

But still, when she says she couldn't believe he would chose to live in poverty, it's unbelievable that she could be that dense. She has been living all her life under a father who (from her standpoint) "chose" what luxuries they would have and what not. So she sees men as an inexhaustible source of money who just have to be wheedled enough?

But some of her actions go beyond childish spoiledness -- riding when pregnant, making trouble for Will with D., wanting to accumulate young adoring swains after marriage. These show real meanness.

It is shocking to read books of that period and realize how casually opium was used. It was even given to babies to stop their crying!! We know that some of the well known poets were drug addicts: it's a wonder there weren't more.

Coca cola originally had cocaine in it. Ergo the name.

Marni

From "The Social Ramifications of Opium Use in 19th Century England " by Lea Smalls

Opium had first arrived in London as a new medicinal trade product. It was new, compact, easily transported and non-perishable. Trade with China proved very profitable and flourished for more than twenty years uninterrupted until in 1835 China passed its first laws prohibiting the importation of opium.(Here the author talks of the Opium Wars of the 1840s and 50s).

During the years between and after the opium wars England was developing more uses for opium. There were opium plaster, pillss, cough drops, lozenges, troches, and scores of other applications. Usually the opium was originally bought for some kind of ailment , and cosequently the addiction would begin.

Since the science of pharmacology was being developed at this moment in history, it posed deep competition to the local physician. Noting that medicine is a business first and a healing profession last it stands to reason that the medical community must make money. Since druggists were concocting new cures for existing ailments ,it made the provincial physician less needed , and he therefore made less money. However with the druggist/chemist the local person need only show up with a shilling and buy a cure".

The article gives many instances of opium appearing in the Literature of the period but does not mention MM since it is only a passing moment and not central to the plot of our novel. It is possibly used , like the momentary suicidal ideation, to show the desparation of Lydgates feelings without him giving in to temptations of the time:i.e. gambling, opium, alcohol and of course when all else fails doing away with ones self. In fact by showing how Lydgate did not give in to these things she is possibly pointing out his strength and not his weakness.

Judy

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Hi all...today's my 67th birthday!! I'm even taking the day off from Latin 101!!!

Since I already finished the book I won't be joining in the MM discussion till the last week but...

A friend has lent me a book called "Suspense and Sensibility"...a sort of continuing saga (in mystery form) of the lives of Mr. and Mrs. Darcy. Haven't read much of it yet but am realizing how much I had missed those folks!!! So far I like it and after reading just a bit I feel as though I saw all the scenes in a movie; that's how good the descriptions and narration are so far. It is rather a 'light-weight' after MM and GE!!

Have a great day all...I sure intend to!!

Alliemae

Happy Birthday, dear Alliemae-ay
Happy Birthday to Youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!
Here's hoping you are doing something very special today!
We miss your morning visits in here...wish you could participate even though you know the story's denouement. Yes? We miss you!

Faith, your Thanksgiving sounds right out of a Norman Rockwell painting with the generations gathered around the table! So happy for you!
,br> You and Babi seem to agree - Rosamond, though spoiled, sullen, headstrong, capable of being quite mean when she doesn't get her way - is not really "evil." What an awful thing to say to her husband...

"It is hard to be disgraced and live in a miserable way...I wish I had died when my baby died."

Didn't she stop to think how that made him feel? (Not to mention the fact that the baby died from the fall from Captain Lydgate's horse she was riding against her husband's wishes.) Anyone who sees herself as the only blameless person in her world is trouble for those she comes into contact with. She can justify ANYTHING she does - and everyone owes her an apology. If she finds herself with her back against the wall, or bored with everyone and everything - look out, she's dangerous!.

I thought it was interesting that even daddy had turned down her request for help. Now he is also to blame for her misery. We're told that daddy has been trading on borrowed capital. Everyone in Middlemarch seems to have money troubles these days, have you noticed? Mr. Vincy has financial worries of his own, but notice that Mama Vincy is still throwing the big New Year's party for the town. Rosamond must be seething over the fact that they are living high, but won't help her. JoanK - "she sees men as an inexhaustible source of money who just have to be wheedled enough." She gets that from watching mama, don't you think?

Do you think the addictive nature of opium was known at this time, JoanK? IF anyone knew, it would have been the doctor. Thanks for the information on opium, Judy. As you point out, his use of opium was so brief, it didn't become an issue -

"...he had once or twice tried a dose of opium. But he had no hereditary constitutional craving after such transient escapes from the hauntings of misery."

I'm not exactly sure what that meant but it does show that the "transient" relief was not sufficient to overcome his misery. Is Eliot showing us that Lydgate is a strong man of principle? Interesting question. Let's see how he gets out of his corner! He did go through a phase, thinking that Lady Luck was the solution - and tried gambling on his own ability at billiards. That old pride of his... Almost his undoing! But he was saved in the nick of time - by Fred! Or was it because Farebrother showed up, giving Fred an excuse to interrupt the billiards game?

Does anyone remember what our Vicar was doing in the Green Dragon? Was that explanation given? And what is Fred doing there? What reason is given?

Farebrothers is at the green dragon to speak to Fred. Fred is attempting to draw Lydgate away from the game of billards by saying they should go and speak to Farebrothers. But he is there to speak to Fred not Lydgate. He tells Fred not to slip up and lose Mary. and or his job with Mr. Garth. In fact Farebrother tells Fred that if he does slip up he could lose Mary for good as he loves her and he is fairly sure he could win her if Fred should slip into his old ways. Fred gets the point that he should try to deserve Mary, and that Farebrother is not out to steal Mary but he is warning Fred that he should try to deserve her, or he will do just that.

Lydgate and Fred are both irresponsible in their gambling. They don't know the value of money and seem to have faith that chance will get them funds. Lydgate is worse than Fred because he is already deep in debt and there is no none who could bail him out. In this chapter the author has juxtapositioned these two in a new way with Fred more responsible than Lydgate, and seems to make more mature decision.

Farebrother seems a paradox when he threatens to betray Fred. This author is always throwing me curves. Still, I thought it was sort of clear that Farebrothers would like to do just that in order to gain Mary's attention. He is certainly a good man though not a saint. Faith

I don't believe Lydgate is in the habit of gambling; there has been no mention of it. He sat down at a table to pass some time while waiting for the man he came to see. Then he began to win so dramatically, that I think the hopes of resolving his debt problems went to his head.

I don't think Mrs. Vincey is anywhere near as obtuse as her daughter. She seems to be quite compliant with her husbands wishes and willing to make the best of things. Rosamond refuses to believe that there is any reason why she should not have whatever pleases her, and any attempt to tell her otherwise is rejected with that gesture of turning away. She simply refuses to believe what she does not wish to believe.

Babi

To describe Rosamond, I would use words like conniving, manipulative, self-centered, superficial, etc. I don’t feel we are being too hard on her. Yes, Eliot may be trying to say something about a wife’s difficult position, but I think that could have been done in a different way. In fact, it was, a bit anyway. I am thinking of Mrs. Garth giving up the money she saved for the good of the family after Fred couldn’t repay his debt.

What bothers me the most about Rosamond is her lack of support for her husband. He has communicated to her on several occasions the need for reducing expenses, selling some items, etc. and she has not been supportive in changing her own actions to help remedy the situation. She wants her house, her possessions, etc., and wants other people to bail them out of debt rather than taking responsibility for hers and her husband’s own situation. She wants to pass the buck.

Now, how and why Lydgate puts up with this behavior, and coos over her a bit…She has already taken the actions behind his back. They can’t be undone. What can he really do to stop her? I think he is trying to walk a fine line of maintaining a decent relationship with his wife and keeping her in control. I think she is bound to act behind his back again though.

I was surprised to read that Lydgate thought about suicide. He didn’t seem that desperate at that point in the book to me. Now, however, with all of his known options exhausted, I am not sure what he will do. Something drastic, like selling everything and moving, but I just don’t see suicide.

I think Lydgate tried opium hoping for relief, but didn’t find any. I am not concerned about him being addicted to gambling or opium. I do wish he would have stopped gambling while he was ahead though!

It is very interesting to think of Bulstrode as tragic rather than horrible. I didn’t think him horrible, but I wasn’t sympathetic to him. The theory of a tragic figure seems like it could fit.

I don't think we should skip over the following words which explain much about Fred's trips to the Green Dragon:

"Fred had been rewarding resolution by a little laxity of late....Mary had been staying at Lowick Parsonage....and Fred, not seeing anything more agreeable to do, had turned into the Green Dragon, partly to play at billiards, partly to taste the old flavor of discourse about horses, sport, and things in general, considered from a point of view which was not strenuously correct. He had not been out hunting once this season, had had no horse of his own to ride...It was a little too bad, Fred began to think, that he should be kept in the traces with more severity than if he had been a clergyman"....And now, Mary being out of the way for a little while...There could be no reason why he should not play at billiards, but he was determined not to bet....Nevertheless, it must be acknowledged that on this evening, which was the fifth of his recent visits to the billiard-room, Fred had, not in his pocket, but in his mind, the ten pounds which he meant to reserve for himself from his half-year's salary (having before him the pleasure of carrying thirty to Mrs. Garth when Mary was likely to be come home again) -- he had those ten pounds in his mind as a fund from which he might risk something, if there were a chance of a good bet. Why? Well, when sovereigns were flying about, why shouldn't he catch a few? He would never go far along that road again; but a man likes to assure himself, and men of pleasure generally, what he could do in the way of mischief if he chose, and that if he abstains from making himself ill, or beggaring himself, or talking with the utmost looseness which the narrow limits of human capacity will allow, it is not because he is a spooney. Fred did not enter into formal reasons, which are a very artificial, inexact way of representing the tingling returns of old habit, and the caprices of young blood: but there was lurking in him a prophetic sense that evening, that when he began to play he should also begin to bet....

But the last thing likely to have entered Fred's expectation was that he should see his brother-in-law Lydgate...."

I think Lydgate unknowingly saved Fred from himself and Fred saved Lydgate. Farebrother had come to the Green Dragon to try to save Fred - He probably had heard that Fred had been hitting the place again and Farebrother knows a lot about human nature.

------------------------------------------

OK, OK, I went too far when I used the word "evil" about Rosamond. But, she still makes me think of "the bad seed"! She's so wicked!

Marni

ALLIEMAE: YEAH. HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!!!! But we'll miss your comments a lot. Hope you can come in in places where you won't be a "spoiler.

I agree with you, MARNI. The bad seed. I keep thinking that she's going to get worse, not better.

There are a lot of levels to the scene in the green dragon, aren't there. It's very cleverly done. We have Lydgate, who had looked down on Farebrother for gambling, now gambling while Farebrother looks on (or down)). A strong way of pointing out the effect of circumstance on character without saying a word. And we have, as you pointed out, Fred the irresponsible saving the responsible Lydgate from his foolishness. Notice Eliot says that luckily Lydgate lost. But he was pulled away before he could lose more than a small amount. He learned rather cheaply that gambling wasn't the way out for him.

Then we have Farebrother trying to save Fred for Mary. He isn't a saint, but he certainly is better than most of us. Telling Fred that if Fred didn't shape up, Farebrother would win her was probably the best spur he could have given. Fred knows that Mary won't be there waiting forever. It's probably now or never for him. And he knows what a good husband Farebrother would make, so to be fair to Mary, if he wants to win her, he must be a good one too.

Fred is clearly restive. If this is going to work, he needs to find an outlet that isn't destructive for this energy. I'm hoping he will find it in what Caleb calls "business". Are we going to end up with a hymn to Capitalism?

Dear JoanP and JoanK...thanks for the birthday wishes. And yes, I didn't do ONE THING I didn't want to do yesterday!

It's nice to be missed. I will try to contribute but it's so difficult not to 'spoil'...

I do read all the posts daily and will be back to discussion during the closing week though!

Alliemae

Alliemae, happy that you are still with us, bringing those ~~donuts~~ crumpets with you each morning! We are moving at a faster clip now, new revelations on each page. So much is not surprising as the groundwork has been laid in previous installments.

I've got a question taking shape in the back of my mind. Is Eliot saying that you are who you are, who you have been, and no matter how hard you try to change, you are the sum of your experiences? Or does she see her characters capable of change?

Consider Fred - Faith writes of Fred and Lydgate - "They don't know the value of money and seem to have faith that chance will get them funds." Does Fred need money now, Fai, or does he have this inborn tendency to take chances?
Marni, thank you for bringing that passage on Fred at the Green Dragon to our attention. The sentence that jumped off the page to me -

"It was a little too bad, Fred began to think, that he should be kept in the traces with more severity than if he had been a clergyman" - .

Like his sister, he believes the good life is owed to him. He seems unable to keep away from temptation. If Eliot sees character as fixed, then I'm not sure that Fred can change, no matter how much he wants Mary. On the other hand, if I'm mistaken and Eliot does see possibility for change, I would think that Farebrother's challenge would be Fred's salvation. I'm still not sure where Eliot is taking us here. If Farebrother and Caleb Garth have their way, Fred will be saved from his own inherent tendencies. Fred, the successful man of business, who no longer hears the siren song beckoning him to his old haunts? JoanK asks - "Are we going to end up with a hymn to Capitalism?" I am amused that we are in Book 7 of 8 and we still are unsure where Eliot is taking us!

Fai, I see Farebrother's character as "golden" - he puts honor first, before his own needs and desires. He seems true to type in making this great sacrifice. I'm wondering if he truly believes that Fred is a weakling, and that he, himself would make the better husband for Mary, why doesn't do what is best for her? I guess, because he is Farebrother, and even his love for Mary, and his concern for her well-being, is not about to change his natural reticence to satisfy his own desires.

Then there's Lydgate...Babi, no, Lydgate is basically not a gambler as you say. Has not relied on Lady Luck to get him where he is - has always been a careful planner, (though he did not foresee such problems with his wife. He should have. JoanK, I'll agree, Rosamond will only get worse. Because that's who she is, has always been.) He sees things through his own rose-colored glasses. His pride. Thought Rosamond adored him and everything he did - before they were married. Notice that the gambling was over AS SOON AS he became aware of how he appeared at the billiard table. His pride will keep him from there.

Laura, I'm trying to recall whether Lydgate actually contemplated "suicide" as a possible way out of this impossible situation. Was it Eliot who inserted that little buzz word, "suicide" to make us aware just how desperate Lydgate has become? Funny how she built up to his final "inevitable" course of action. (Had me worried that it was suicide too.)

"Nevertheless, though reason strangled the desire to gamble, there remained the feeling that, with an assurance of luck to the needful amount, he would have liked to gamble, rather than take the alternative which was beginning to urge itself as inevitable."

At the beginning of Book Seven, I was surprised at the reminder that Lydgate was working for Bulstrode at the Hospital - unsalaried! And now we learn that the inevitable alternative is not suicide, but...Bulstrode? Did you find yourself wondering why he hasn't approached Bulstrode for help until now? Or Dorothea? She spends a lot of time at the hospital too. Was it his pride that kept him from appealing to these two sources of help - or something else?

Drats! I’ve always been sympathetic towards Lydgate but now he is annoying me. He’s a bloody chicken. He wishes to ask Bulstrode for a loan but blames him for “indirectly” causing the failure of his practice.
In addition, he transfers his feelings to be that of Bulstrodes.

At one moment he thought, " I will write a letter: I prefer that to any circuitous talk; " at another he thought, " No; if I were talking to him, I could make a retreat before any signs of disinclination."

No, Joan I think his humiliation far outweighs his pride. The hesitation ends when B. calls for the doctor’s rapt attention to his “dyspeptic and mental condition.” After being made aware of the hospital difficulties he finds the courage, at last, toexpresses his financial woes to B. and is told to file for bankruptcy. Oh now I do feel bad for him.
Full of pride, full of humiliation and full of debts. Where does one go from there?

Joanp I think Fred will always have much the same attitude toward money but I also think people can overcome addictions (gambling) if they truly put anothers happiness first...Mary's. I also wonder why out good soul Farebrothers does not see that he would be so much better a husband and try. Well perhaps that will come up. GE will keep us guessing as that is her job to keep us reading the book hahaha.

Lydgate and Bulstrode finally get together for their conversation regarding Bulstrode health and Lydgate financial problems. Bulstrode solves everything by telling Lydgate to go bankrupt! And his plans are on hold about the hospital until he comes back from his trip so he sends Lydgate to Mrs. Casaubon regarding the changes planned for the hospital.(and her money) So I am eager to continue reading and see where all this is taking us. Bulstrode seems still to be afraid of Raffles. Lydgate is considering moving like his wife suggested though it is fearful to contemplate Rosemonde in a cheap lodging house room. Faith

ALF.."Where does Lydgate go from there?"

Well " Lydgate had so many times boasted both to himself and others that he was totally independent of Bulstrode , to whose plans he had lent himself solely because they enabled him to carry out his own idea of proffessional work and public benefit. "

Lydgate has to eat humble pie for breakfast,lunch and dinner. Then he should reassess what is possible under the circumstances in which he finds himself. His mate, Rosalynd, is a hindrance rather than a help. His last bastion of help, Bulstrode, who he despises, gives him practical advice. Wether or not he will declare bankruptcy is of course dependent wether GE comes up with a last minute solution. Dorothea perhaps?

Thus has our main masculine hero fallen. Pride and immaturity have, at least for the moment, almost sunk him. He is certainly paying for his mistakes. Will these new circumstances make for a more mature and practical Lydgate? I certainly hope so but It would take a great deal for him to reasses his life up till now .

Strangely I feel no sorrow for him. Do others?

Judy

Yes, I feel very sorry for Lydgate. I always liked him, although he was a male chauvinist - but I think probably of the times. He certainly had his flaws. He was proud and supercilious, looked with some disdain on others' flaws. But Eliot portrayed him as kind and intelligent; his friends liked him very much. He was an extremely hard worker and tried hard to provide for his family as well as do volunteer work. He had great dreams of doing good work and tried to live his dreams until he was drawn into the pit.

Lydgates flaws have done him in, particularly his naivete towards certain women.

Marni

I do feel sympathetic towards Lydgate. Hmmm…I feel hypocritical sympathizing with Lydgate and not with Bulstrode. Lydgate has not committed any crime. He hasn’t gone out of his way to be friendly with people in Middlemarch, but his work motives seem to be genuinely good. He is trying to fix the financial mess he is in, not just temporarily with a handout, but by changing his and Rosamond’s ways. And speaking of Rosamond, maybe because he is having to deal with her, someone who I don’t respect, I have sympathy for him.

Faith wrote: "I also wonder why out good soul Farebrothers does not see that he would be so much better a husband and try."

Well, I guess there is no getting around the basic fact that Mary loves Fred. Since Mary loves Fred,then Farebrother is going to do his best to see that Fred deserves her and makes her happy. Let Fred blow his chance, however, and we can be sure Farebrother will not be slow to plead his own case.

Lydgate does not have the options in his marriage that he would have today. Divorce is the ultimate scandal. If he cannot arrive at some sort of acceptable relationship with his wife, he faces a lifetime of lovelessness and misery. I frequently found myself wishing he could take her back to her father and declare, "You spoiled her! You live with her!"

Babo

JOANP: "[Fred] believes the good life is owed to him. He seems unable to keep away from temptation."

Yes, but it's interesting that he defines the good life as gambling and riding horses. I'm not sure he is a gambling addict, I think he likes the risk of stretching himself to perform. (If I remember correctly, he gambles on his own skill). I think the only hope for him is not a life of self-denial but to find this same satisfaction doing something useful and productive.

These two spoiled Vincy children are interesting contrasts. They are like a moral lesson in sex roles believed in but gone bad. They both spend money irresponsibly. But Fred, the man, on useless skill and achievement, Rosamund, the woman on useless means to make her more admired. Eliot is not questioning sex roles here, but showing the bad side of them. The turnaround for both would be to embrace the "good" side of the role: Fred as a productive achiever, Rosamund as a good wife, mother, and creative household manager. It's clear that Eliot has a lot more sympathy with the men's role and Fred will turn it around, Rosamund won't. I'm hoping Dorothea will wind up with a combination of the good parts of both roles.

Faith I agree that addictions can be overcome. Heck who isn’t addicted to something or other? Me- I’ve been addicted to nicotine and scotch and have quite overcome that. I was absorbed with the computer for many months, accustomed to beginning and ending my day at it. Fanatical behavior exists for me daily. I am hooked on many things, obsessed with few. That is what addiction is all about. Breaking these habit-forming activities, attempting to not allow them to enslave me is the trick. Fred has Mary, somebody else may have their promises mean the most to them, others will swap one “addiction” for another. Let us just hope that young Fred puts this preoccupation with gambling behind him.

Judy- in today’s society “bankruptcy” is no big deal. Heck, we file today and tomorrow we are greeted with three new credit cards, in the mail to “help” us find our way. There is no dishonor or embarrassment connected with it. Heck, some think “good on you.” Just imagine the thoughts of having to file for “bankruptcy” back in the MM time frame? Imagine the awkwardness and abasement that would be associated with Dr. Lydgate having to admit his financial obligations had gone awry. How mortifying for him and well as Ros. That- as well as divorce Babi would be scandalous particularly in a small berg such as MM. The slanderous gossip would rip through that town like a fire ablaze.

Three new credit cards!!!!!!!! I had a friend who filed for bankruptcy, and he would have needed a gunny sack to carry all the offers of new credit cards (at absolutely horrible interest rates, of course). Why? In this state, he can't file again for (I think it's ) six years, and they figure he'll run up a big balance and have to pay the interest. That's what they want. The credit card companies call people who pay off their full balance every month "free loaders".

When my daughter went to college, the credit card companies ATTACKED the freshmen. She was offered a credit card with a $20,000 limit. A teenager, without a job or a penny to her name, who would have paid? Us, of course, but she didn't need our signature to get it. Fortunately, she is very sensible, and laughed at them. Some of her friends weren't so smart and ended up in horrible credit card debt, along with their college loans (which are bad enough!).

Another friend was told by a credit adviser that if he paid the minimum balance every month and didn't charge anything more, it would take him 40 years to pay off his debt. That is what the companies want you to do -- that way you pay many many times more that the cost of the goods you buy.

You can see you hit one of my hot buttons. We need credit, but the credit card companies need stronger laws -- they are way out of control.

Oh, don't get me started on credit cards, Joan - one of my buttons too. However, that said, am off to heat up the AMEX card this morning...they are giving double bonus air miles this month and I'm burning the airways back and forth to Memphis these days. And I can't go empty-handed! Big shopping day today. Love to shop for little ones. The trouble is so much of the stuff they want (they think they want) is such junk! I have to raise the bar and get something I think they might like, though the four year old thinks the pink plastic Barbie shoe store is to die for!

Just a few thoughts this morning after reading yesterday's posts...

"I think Fred will always have much the same attitude toward money but I also think people can overcome addictions (gambling) if they truly put another's happiness first."

Faith - YOU think people can overcome addictions...but my continuing question - does Eliot? Andy, good for you! You and JoanK both believe that Fred can turn it around. Has Eliot presented characters who will remain in character throughout - or are they capable of change? If we knew this, we could probably predict the outcome of the story - well, maybe not that far, but at least we wouldn't be surprised at the turn of events. Were you surprised to find Fred at the Green Dragon?

If Eliot has portrayed Fred as a spendthrift...unable to appreciate the value of money - a playboy gambler, if you will, is he capable of change?

If Lydgate is ruled by pride and finds himself in a humiliating situation, will his pride motivate his future actions? I think so.

I can't see him filing for bankruptcy. Of course, he's humiliated to find himself up to his eyebrows in credit debt - has done that to please Rosamond.

Judy, I don't see how Lydgate could believe he was financially independent from his "employer." Of course he is! His pride doesn't allow him to recognize this. We need to come up with another explanation for his reluctance to turn to Bulstrode for financial help. Dorothea...why not talk to Dorothea? She spends much time at the hospital, she values his work, would surely want to help if she knew his situation. Why hasn't he approached her before this? A perfect solution, one would think.

Judy, I don't think Eliot feels sorry for him either. Everything indicates he is in this trouble because he has given Rosamond permission to be his master. Why? Because of his NEED for affection. A stronger need than preserving his pride. I guess I pity him - I pity anyone who is this needy. His "naivete towards women" - as Marni put it. Babi, yeah, I like your solution...take her back to Daddy and tell her when she is ready to be a wife, rather than a spoiled little rich girl, she come back home. But he won't do that. He needs to try to win her affection.

Like Laura, I see a hard working man with good intentions, trying to to good, but eaten up with pressure and worry - which could have been bearable with some support at home. Now how can you not feel pity for someone like this?

'Tis the season to be jolly. I didn't mean to stir the dust about credit cards.

That's a lie-- I am expected to stir the dust.

Re: "There is no dishonor or embarrassment connected with it [bankruptcy.]"

I was surprised to see some of you feel this way. Sure, the credit cards come flying in no matter what your financial state anymore. But, I still think the need to declare bankruptcy is an extreme humiliation for most people forced into it. It shows you have failed. You have to give up everything you may have left. It is public so everyone knows about it. I know several people who are not making enough to support themselves, after losing their jobs. Their are in despair and absolutely do not want to declare bankruptcy because of the humiliation.

I'm also surprised some of you are taking Fred's gambling so lightly. I don't. Maybe it's because I live near Foxwood's Casino in CT, the largest casino in the world. Many people in CT, including young people Fred's age, have become gambling addicts. There are frequent articles about it in the newspaper. Many people have lost everything they own and have lost their families as a result of gambling addictions. They are drawn to it uncontrollably and can't help themselves. A friend of mine who works at the casino said some people at the slot machines wear Depends so they can just go to the bathroom without moving away from the slots.

Eliot draws a wonderful, but sad, picture of Fred when he is at the Green Dragon basically rationalizing why it would be OK to go to the gambling table - he won't bet, he tells himself, but then he thinks "if there were a chance of a good bet. Why? Well, when sovereigns were flying about, why shouldn't he catch a few?....there was lurking in him a prophetic sense that evening, that when he began to play he should also begin to bet...."

I think Eliot's use of the word "lurking" is very ominous. This implies Fred knows that he has a menacing inner compulsion within himself that will come out.

Fred went to the Green Dragon because Mary had gone away for awhile and he was free and missed some of his old pleasures. Will this happen whenever Mary is gone in the future? Is it Mary who keeps Fred from gambling, as well as Farebrother hovering over Fred? If Fred cannot control himself and needs another to control him, he has a big problem.

Fred may be fine in the future, but I think he will always have to contend with that inner menacing need.

Marni

I believe our author has some big suprises in store for us. I have not figured out yet whether she feels Fred is capable of change or not but a big theme in this novel is about change. Look at Dorothea and the changes and growth she has gone through so far. And I feel that Bulstrode himself is going through some mighty changes. All the Garths seem to be the example of virtue that the other characters need to attain too. Hopefully they will. Faith

I just had a thought while reading the posts about gambling, credit cards, addiction, etc. Could Eliot be making a point about vices vs. hard work? The Garths, who everyone in the book seems to acknowledge as hard workers, don’t have any vices, at least not ones like gambling, pride, a hidden, criminal past, etc. The Garths are always portrayed as busy, the women with their needlework, Mr. Garth with all his ventures. Meanwhile, Fred, Rosamond, and to some extent Lydgate and Bulstrode, are portrayed to have a more leisurely life, with more free time on their hands that they need to fill. Fred and Rosamond don’t seem to be making good choices about how to fill their time. I am sure there is a Biblical verse, an old proverb, or some saying that comments on idleness leading to sinfulness.

Laura- my grandmother used to tell us that "an idle mind was the devil's workshop."

JoanP, somewhere early in the story Lydgate expresses his distaste for Bulstrode and his mixing of religion with pragmatic activities. Farebrother had already warned him about giving control over his own decisions and professional activities to B., whose interest in the hospital is not strictly the result of humanitarian impulses. Bulstrode saw the hospital as an opportunity for getting control over the spiritual and moral views of the patients and of anyone who is involved with him in that enterprise. Lydgate cast the vote for Tyke as hospital chaplain because he knew other Middlemarchers thought that out of personal interest he would do what Bulstrode wanted. Driven by his pride, he needed to show that he wasn’t intimidated by public suspicion, so he votes Bulstrode’s way, even though Farebrother had been pointed out as more deserving of the post. Now he has to humble himself and ask for help from someone he doesn’t really respect. Even though he has been working on the hospital project “for free,” he probably sees asking for money as a sign that he has indeed put himself under the influence of someone with whom he would rather not be closely associated.
The only reason I can think of for not asking Dorothea for help that is that it may have been considered improper to bother a woman, even one in good financial circumstances, to volunteer her resources in a business venture. I don’t see why that should be the case, but other than his pride, which we have all recognized, why would he pass her by and go to Bulstrode?

Re: "why would he pass her by and go to Bulstrode?"

Lydgate had a working relation with Bulstrode. He had a patient/doctor relationship with Dorothea. Why would he ask her for money before Bulstrode?

Andy, stir that dust girl! In her way, that's exactly what Eliot is doing. Imagine the talk following each of these installments!

Marni, I'm not taking Fred's appearance in the Green Dragon lightly. We're told this is the 5th or 6th time he's been there. Is that since Mary has been away? Does this mean that whenever Mary goes away, Fred will feel the call to the gaming table? What sort of life will this be for Mary? That's what Farebrother is concerned about. He could have kept Fred's behavior to himself and let ruin himself, instead he feels he should warn him. How much warning does Fred need? He seems genuinely overwhelmed at Farebrother's gesture - but is it enough?

Marni sees the "menacing inner compulsion" - LURKING. Does Eliot see the basic nature of man's character the determinant for his behavior. Or can it be overcome by good intentions? Faith points out one of the "big themes of this novel" - CHANGE. It's true that change is coming to Middlemarch. I'm not sure I see so much change in Dorothea since her marriage to Casaubon yet though. She's still the same naive, idealistic, very young girl who wants to save the world, make everyone love one another. Her circumstances have changed...she is freer to move about and make decisions on what to do with her money. She still has advisors, though - especially Sir James. Do you see change in her - other than her determination not to marry again?

I dunno what to make of Bulstrode. It appears he has always been a very complex, conflicted person since a very young man who always wanted to be a missionary and tried to make that calling part of his life in the business world. Is he changing?

The Garths are virtuous. Are they changing?

Laura, sees the Garths' hard work as key. THe difference between the idleness of the rich, the diligence of those who have not. This accounts for the acceptance of change at the time. THe numbers of the working class growing, the idle rich trying to maintain dwindling estates and control. Maybe it is the virtuous, industrious sorts who are going to change?

Good to hear from PA! Ah yes, Jo, Lydgate's distaste for Bulstrode's mixing of religion with medical. As a man of science, this would never do if Bulstrode's religion was introduced to the patients who came to the New Hospital for help. Does he believe Bulstrode will do that now that he has accepted the loan? Or has it always been his fear that folks will think that he is under Bulstrode's influence? Didn't they think that already? Since he was the deciding vote for Mr. Tyke?

Lydgate considers turning to Bulstrode the "inevitable" last step. What were his options at this point? Suicide never really seems to have been an option, does it? Leaving MM? He considered it when pressured by Rosamond, but doesn't see how they would live. Dorothea doesn't seem to have occurred to him, Marni, but they have more than a doctor-patient relationship. We are told she has already contributed to the hospital when Casaubon was alive, thinks it a worthy cause ministering to the poor, spends a lot of time there, ...and has great respect for Lydgate's work. She also knows the long hours he is putting in there. Surely they talk. Surely she sees a change in him? Does she know that he is unsalaried? Jo, maybe he doesn't want to bother a lady, but she certainly doesn't represent the threat of interference that Bulstrode does. Maybe it is a matter of pride.

ALF: you didn’t stir the dust – it was me. But enough on that. (well, one more thing). We didn’t invent huge credit debt. When we read about ancient Rome, I noticed that the Romans lived on credit. If a new emperor wanted to earn the support of the people, he canceled all debt. But the people soon got right back into debt.

JOANP: yes, that is an interesting question – we don’t know yet if these characters can change. And if they do, we don’t know if Eliot can show us the process of change as believably as she has shown the thought processes up to now.

The exception is Dorothea as Faith says. I think she has changed – she seems much more mature and self reliant.It is good for her, being in charge of her life, instead of under first her uncle, then C. Her values haven’t changed, but she seems more happy, less pining, now she can carry them out. It is fairly believable – the process of discovering C’s character and switching from admiration to taking care of him has changed her.

MARNI: I agree about bankruptcy still being a humiliation. Many people will struggle for years to avoid it. But it’s not the lifelong disgrace that it used to be. My grandfather had to declare bankruptcy due to no fault of his own and never recovered.

I don’t take Fred’s gambling lightly at all. I had an uncle who was a compulsive gambler and basically ruined his family’s life. But not everyone who gambles is a compulsive gambler, and I’m not yet convinced that Fred is. I think he just needs another outlet for his sense of adventure.

LAURA: I think you are right about Fred at least. If he could find work that would stimulate his need for adventure and achievement, I think he would be alright. Maybe he’s the one who will be changed by the railroad.

JO: good point about L.’s pride not letting him ask a woman for help. Given his ideas about women, I’m sure that’s the case.

I've been reading "Founding Mothers" by Cokie Roberts: the story of women in the American Revolution, in preparation for discussing it in March. Among the dozens of stories of truly heroic patriotic women, I found the American equivalent of Rosamund!

It's Peggy Shippen, the wife of Benedict Arnold. Apparently, Arnold had gotten himself in a position similar to Lydgate's, trying to support her expensive ways. The implication is that that is why he offered his (and her) services to the British as spies for a lot of money.

Rosamund, like Peggy, would make a great spy (except that there's no war going on in MM). But Lydgate is too honorable for that. However, we'll begin to find out next week whether Lydgate will get out of his problem with his honor intact.

Perhaps I am remembering incorrectly, but I had thought that Lydgate would have approached Dorothea if she had not been away with her family. She had already shown herself to be generous in supporting the hospital and Lydgates plans there. But she was not expected back any time soon, and Lydgate's affairs were pressing.

LAURA, I have another old quote along the lines you mentioned. ""The devil finds work for idle hands."

Babi

I want to go back to the question of"Is it Mary that keeps Fred from gambling?"

My answer is YES! Without Mary Fred would be totally devastated and very quickly stray from the straight and narrow. Remember how he got into debt at the beginning of the book? Caleb Garth is trying to "save" Fred. I think that means from his gambling addiction. Adventure and good works may eventually save Fred but without Mary he will not go in that direction.

Don't put all the addictions in the same boat. Imbibing Alcohol and Drugs always has the same result. It allows you to forget your troubles for a time. Later it may bring other troubles but most people start out by using substances to forget.

On the other hand,gambling, may or may not have the same result every time. At least in the addicts mind. There is a personality factor in gambling. The desperation to win is usually a desperation to prove that you are "worthy" or better than others. Your Lady Luck is going to beat out others.

Dostoyevsky was a compulsive gambler and wrote wonderfully on that subject. However understanding his addiction did not help him overcome it.

A gamblers mind is very akin to a hackers mind. The original hackers (in a study done at Stanford) would go without food and drink for up to 24 hours.(The study didn't mention their bathroom habits). It is usually harder to wean a gambler from their habit than it is a substance abuse addict since their habit is not destroying their body and their mind. It is more akin to an obsession.

Lydgate is not addictive nor prone to obsessing so these things that he tries will have no lasting effect. He is stuck with his wife and no money. Only a miracle(one brought about by Saint GE) can really save him.

Judy

Judy

JoanK, this book sounds wonderful. Are you saying it will be a Book Discussion in March on SN?

I have never read anything by Cokie Roberts but do enjoy her commentary on tv...and I LOVE American History Women's biographies.

Alliemae

A good Sunday morning, everyone!

It's good to know you are staying with us, Alliemae. To answer your question, Cokie Roberts' Founding Mothers is on the drawing board for March - still needs to be PROPOSED to our readers and a QUORUM reached. Keep your eyes opened for more after we ring in the New Year. Oh, and this discussion will be lead by our own JoanK and Marni. It should be wonderful.

A few comments before moving on to the rest of "Two Temptations" tomorrow. A question for you - which are the TWO TEMPTATIONS referred to in Book Seven's title? Gee, I count more than TWO, but wonder which you think Eliot had in mind?

Judy, do you see Fred as having that personality factor - the desperation to prove that you are "worthy" or better than others.?" If so, then he will constantly be having to prove to Mary that he was a better choice than Farebrother - more importantly, he will have to prove this to himself. Who knows, maybe JoanK has something here...maybe Fred is the one who will be changed by the railroad. I'm not too optimistic about Fred's overcoming his feeling of not being worth of Mary.

Jo's thought on Lydgate's pride preventing him from going to Dorothea for help. She looks like his only source of funds now that Bulstrode has turned him down. Don't you think?

Babi, I think Dorothea has just left Middlemarch to look at some land to purchase with Sir James. IF she sinks all her money into another project, she might not be able to help Lydgate...1000 pounds is a considerable sum, even for this widow. I do think he could have approached her earlier...but pride held him back. I found myself saying out loud...Hurry, stop her before she goes off to spend her fortune with Sir James. (I think Sir James will advise her against any idealistic project she comes up with.) Apparently Lydgate dragged his heels? Or maybe not.

Don't you think it is amazing that Eliot has us all hanging, right to the end? Are you looking for a happy resolution? Were Eliot's readers? Would they have been satisfied with anything less?

JUDY: “A gamblers mind is very akin to a hackers mind. The original hackers (in a study done at Stanford) would go without food and drink for up to 24 hours.(The study didn't mention their bathroom habits). It is usually harder to wean a gambler from their habit than it is a substance abuse addict since their habit is not destroying their body and their mind. It is more akin to an obsession. “

That’s very interesting (maybe they wore Depends too). I don’t really know much about it. I guess I don’t see Fred as an addict because he doesn’t gamble constantly, only when he is up against it. It is very much part of the “college gentleman” culture he has been thrust into to gamble, but, as you said, those who don’t have an addictive personality don’t become addicts. Just as not everyone who becomes drunk occasionally is an alcoholic. (That’s another part of the culture Fred is in, but there is no mention of him, or anyone else, drinking. Perhaps it was taboo to mention in novels).

TWO TEMPTATIONS: there are more coming up next week, but how many do we find already?

Well, Bulstrode is very fearful of having his past exposed, to the point of considering moving away. I think he would be tempted to do anything that might save him. And Lydgate, when he begins to win at the gambling table, is tempted to try and redeem his fortunes there.

Of course, Fred is tempted to return to his old amusements. After all, a young fellow is entitled to some fun, isn't he? All three of them can find excuses for themselves, which of course is the first step in succumbing to temptation. Who knows which two Eliot had in mind. Take your pick.

Babi

I think one of the temptations(though in the past) was Bulstrodes taking the money that belonged to another. If there is a tragic character it is Bulstrode. Lydgate is not far behind. His temptation was a beautiful face. At this point it looks as if both men are destroyed. However GE may yet save Lydstrom with some twist of her magic pen.

The most obvious answer is the gambling which is Freds addiction although he is beating it at the moment. But if for some reason Mary chooses Farebrother (oh, what a symbolic name!) our young gentleman will slowly but surely give into temptation.

Another temptation was Raffles addiction to Alcohol. Remember he beat people while under the influence. Then there is Rosamond who is addicted to getting her own way. She is devastating to others because she cannot comprimise.

Well the time to discover more by reading the next chapters is pulling me to the book because reading is my addiction.

On page 642 of the B&N edition (Chapter LXVI), I found this quote by Farebrother talking to Fred:

“But I say, my prompting was to look on and see you take the wrong turning, wear out Garth's patience, and lose the best opportunity of your life -- the opportunity which you made some rather difficult effort to secure. You can guess the feeling which raised that temptation in me -- I am sure you know it.”

I think the two temptations are: Fred – gambling and Farebrother – Mary.

LAURA: good point. But don't forget Lydgate also gambling.

One thing that makes me hope for Fred is the fact that when Fred saw Lydgate gambling, he put aside his own urge and concentrated on getting Lydgate away. Farebrother did not stop Fred from gambling (at least this time), Fred stopped himself.

Distaste and reason are at war within Lydgate: distaste at the idea of asking Bulstrode for anything and reason telling him that he's really the logical person to help him. After all, they have worked together on a significant project, and Bulstrode seems to have done very well as the Middlemarch banker. Yes, Joan, he does think others see him as under Bulstrode's influence, and he is afraid that their belief will be strengthened if B. gives him money to get him out of trouble. The fact that his belongings are being taken away is probably known by many already, so if suddenly this becomes unnecessary some kind of explanation would be expected.

I can't post too much because I have finished the book--shame, oh shame! I couldn't control myself. It gets to be a real page-turner, as you all already know, I'm sure. I was weak -- I had to know how all these tantalizing problems are resolved. I can safely say there will be ample reaction from all of you! The last part of this discussion may be even livelier than it has been so far. Still enjoying all the posts, and I can't promise I won't say anything at all, but I will promise not to comment beyond assigned pages nor will I comment based upon info yet to come. Honest!

JoanK said, "good point. But don't forget Lydgate also gambling."

True! Another thought I had on two temptations were Lydgate's two --- opium and gambling, neither of which worked to ease his worries.

Jo, I had to laugh at your post! I am just itching to finish the book! I have been able to control myself thus far, only because I am reading another good book at the same time, but once I get started on this week's reading, and then find myself with only 50 pages left, temptation may overwhelm me too!

Good Monday morning!
Nothing like an impending snow to start off the week and get one into the spirit! I must admit, I'm still a kid who thrills at a snow forcast. And the first snow of the season is always "magical" as Frosty says.

I'm smiling at the epigraph to the preceding chapter:

"Tis one thing to be tempted, Escalus,
Another thing to fall." Measure for Measure

Prophetic? Not sure to whom Eliot refers with that insight. Could be Fred, could be Lydgate too. Neither has fallen - yet. Both still standing.

Can't say the same for YOU, though! Another one down! Alliemae, Jo...who else? Laura is on the brink of "falling" too! Listen, if you do read ahead, can you promise that you'll stick with us till the end? I believe you, Jo, when you say "the last part of this discussion may be even livelier than it has been so far." Great fear - "a lively discussion" - everyone gone!

So Raffles is back. He's changed, isn't he? What is wrong with him? Is it just that he's ill? I worried that it was cholera, but don't know the symptoms. He hasn't been portrayed as the worrisome sort until now. He seems in terror that someone is hunting him.

Bulstrode has changed too - still on his knees in prayer. But this man who considers a lie the worst of sins is "implying, without a direct form of falsehood that there was a family tie" in order to explain to his wife his reasons for tending to the problematic patient. Hmmm...is this Eliot's way of introducing the "family tie" angle? (Jo, Alliemae, don't answer that one!) There are two more mentions of a relationship between Bulstrode and Raffles, but it could be just rumor among the servants. Bulstrode really seems to fear his wife. Why?

More "temptation" to consider. Only Two? Eliot titled this book, "Two Temptations"...Does Eliot consider something a temptation ONLY if the temptee falls?

Sigh. I can’t say anything to those of you who finished the book. I found myself reading ahead last night, and had to force myself to put it down. It’s hard, we discussion leaders have to read a little ahead – I’ve had to bite my tongue the last few days until we got to this section.

JOANP:“So Raffles is back. He's changed, isn't he? What is wrong with him? Is it just that he's ill”

I think at one point Eliot says that it is the effects of delirium tremens, after years of alcoholism. I wouldn’t necessarily expect Eliot’s medical descriptions to be too accurate.

This is one place where I wonder about Eliot. She only presents a few working class characters, and they are (except for the horse trading incident) connected with drink: Raffles and Brook’s farmer are drunk, the others at the tavern. But the middle and upper class characters are never shown drinking. Even when Fred goes to the Green Dragon, there is no suggestion that he is drinking. A little class bias? Was the upper class that abstemious and the working class that prone to drink?

“Bulstrode really seems to fear his wife. Why? “ I think he fears the lose of her respect and admiration.

These temptations seem to come in pairs. So maybe it’s not “two temptations” but “pairs of temptations”.

The snow they,ve been predicting has just started to fall. I wish I could share JoanP’s joy in it. I’m a typical DC native, believing that as soon as one snowflake falls, the roads become impossible. This becomes a self fulfilling prophecy: as soon as one snowflake falls, it is instant traffic-jam. In spite of the fact that it snows every Winter, no one here knows how to drive in snow. People from further north can’t believe it.

When I was in graduate school, my major professor was from Switzerland. He used to laugh and laugh when I said “Of course I wasn’t here yesterday: It was snowing. There is a whole inch on the ground”.

Well, I’m going to stay in and make myself some hot cocoa. Anyone want to join me? We’d better hurry: I think the snow is stopping.

Maybe Raffles has cirrhosis of the liver or hepatitis, both of which can be caused by alcoholism. (I don't know if people knew about it then. I do know they knew something about liver problems because they knew that gout could cause liver damage in the late 18th century.) The most important thing for sufferers of these diseases to do is to immediately completely stop drinking.

http://cpmcnet.columbia.edu/dept/gi/alcohol.html

Eliot portrayed Mr. Brooke drunk for his political speech, one of the most amusing scenes in the book, I thought. Maybe if she showed upper classes drinking, it was in comedy scenes.

---------------------------------

I'm not so happy to see the snow, either, although I should be used to it. I remember being surprised at the amount of snow when I attended the University of Vermont. The city of Burlington, VT, didn't even to bother to shovel the sidewalks, although they made an attempt at the streets. The snow on the sidewalks got higher and higher and higher. We'd walk on the sidewalk from the dorm to the main campus several feet higher than the street eventually. It was weird. No one ever missed a day of school there. They were prepared for bad weather and used chains on their tires etc.

Here where I live in CT, people go flying out at the first snowflake and start plowing away. They close schools for snow days all the time and the poor kids have to go to school til the end of June to make up snow days.

I'm so glad Raffles was brought up again. I had wanted to go into the change in his behavior, and forgot about it.

He definitely sounds as though he is frightened, which is a strong change from the man who loved to frighten others. He is hiding from someone. I can't help but think that he has done something that has the law hunting for him, or he has harmed his wife and now his son-in-law Riggs is hunting for him. From what we saw of Riggs, I think he could be a formidable man if angered.

I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop. There's something here that Eliot has yet to reveal.

Babi

MARNI: I stand corrected -- I forgot that scene with Mr. Brooke drunk. Yes, it could have been his liver, in which case Lydgate is right to order "no alcohol".

BABI: Raffles does seem frightened. By his sickness, or something else?

Bulstrode is finished. GE writes""Everybody liked better to conjecture how the thing was, than simply to know it; for conjecture soon became more confident than knowledge, and had a more liberal allowance for the incompatible. Even the more definite scandal concerning Bulstode's earlier life was, for some minds, melted into the mystery, as so much lively metal to be poured out in dialogue, and to take such fantastic shapes as heaven pleased."

Of course Lydgate, with the sharpest mind in the book suspects Bulstrode's motives in the care of and the death of Raffles. However the man would eventually have died of cirrohsis since he certainly would not have stayed sober after he had recovered from acute alcohol poisoning. His liver was going and once gone there is no recovery. If and only if the person abstains for the rest of his life and he has 51% of his liver functioning he can recover although parts of his brain may already be pickled and green.

I'm not joking . I worked for our county Dept. of Drugs and Alcohol for 13 years and they gave us the best training available in this subject. So Raffles was a goner although Bulstrode will never beleive that. He finally is out of self justification and he is going down.

Lydgate can not go down and Dorothea will be his savior as I suspected all along. She was put "offstage" for a time in order to come back and save the good but flawed Doctor.

I may join those who have succumbed to finishing the book. I will try hard not to but an addict is an addict.

Judy

Bulstrode is afraid of eternal damnation and public exposure. He has been trying all along (as he construes it) to atone for his past by being super-scrupulous in matters of faith and morals, and by attempting to correct the attitudes and behavior of others. I never felt sorry for him until I realized how much he loved and depended upon Harriet, who seems so compassionate and honest. Then I thought this would indeed be the worse loss he ever experienced, if she deserted him. She seems to find him worthy of her love and forgiveness, good woman that she is.
I think Raffles is seeing the demons his own "pickled" brain is creating. Bulstrode acted as if his superior position allowed him to control Raffles, but when R. begins to babble and reveals damaging information to Caleb Garth, B. realizes his public downfall may be imminent. I don't find his decisions out of character. He is desperate to preserve what he has acquired and he wants Raffles to be silent. He can tell himself later that R. was going to die, anyway.

All right, JOANP was right. We got an inch or two of snow last night, and the woods out back are magic in the sunrise. I don't want to come back to Raffles dark sick room.

I thought Eliot's portrayal of Balustrade's thought processes as he brings himself from really taking care of Raffles to allowing someone else to innocently harm him. Do you think there was any chance that he would turn in the hall, and tell his housekeeper the correct care? Or was it inevitable from the start? If he had gotten away with it, how long do you think it would have been before he had mentally rewritten the past to excuse himself?

Notice, there are two temptations here as well. What are they? Notice, it takes him just as long to fall the second time as it did the first time. Why?

Do you think if Bulstrode had had to administer the opium and alcohol himself he could have done it? Most of his crimes are of omission, not commission. He knows the source of the pawn money but doesn't do anything (at one point he says the business was already set up when he inherited it, excusing himself). He doesn't tell his first wife that he found her daughter. He doesn't tell the housekeeper about the opium. The only active thing he does is give the housekeeper access to alcohol.

It makes me wonder if I have committed crimes of omission without allowing myself to realize it..

`Oh it was a wonderful snowfall...coated the trees, the shrubs, the lawn, but not the street, to create a winter wonderland this morning, but not interfere with anyone's plans. Five-month old puppy went berserk! Oh yes, Joan, it is hard to come back inside into Raffles' sick room and listen to his rails and moans.

Christmas Eve he shows up...no wonder Bulgate had to scramble to come up with a story that would satisfy his family on his need to go out on such a night - mumbling something about "family ties" with this obvious derelict.

Marni, I went back and reread the passage that described Raffles' appearance on his arrival - "...his chronic state of mental restlessness, the growing effect of chronic intemperence..." So he probably was a "goner," as Judy says, but may have had more time left to him. Everyone deserves a chance to set things right before they die, don't you think? There was none of the panic described when he first arrived -

"Raffles was all the while amusing himself with the annoyance he was causing this decent and highly prosperous fellow-sinner..."

"There was a cunning calculation under the noisy-joking - a cool resolve to extract something the hansomer from Bulstrode as payment for release from this new application of torture."

So what is the cause for his obvious terror. Maybe Eliot will pick up this story, Babi and provide another reason, another connection to Bulstrode, perhaps. Or maybe she has described his realization that he is vulnerable to Bulstrode, that Bulstrode is better off seeing him dead. I think I would be afraid of Bulstrode at this point.

I have difficulty understanding how Bulstrode lives with himself. He seems able to force his conscience to conform to his wishes. I'm beginning to understand that his conscience is not something guided from within, but rather measured by his acceptance by others, whether they have the facts or not. It is especially important for him to be accepted and admired by his wife. as Jo points out. Her opinion of him seems a measure of his worth. Her opinion of him guides him. JoanK, that is a super question - "Do you think if Bulstrode had to admininster the opium and alcohol himself he could have done it?">br?There seems to be some logic at work here, that if the public accepts him for his benevolent acts, then God will forgive the measures that he must take to accomplish them.

There is an epigraph at the start of Chapter LXX that puzzles me. What do you think Eliot saying here -

"Our deeds still travel with us from afar,
And what we have been makes us what we are."

Eliot wrote this one. What is she saying? That we carry our own sins with us, that they determine who we really are, we can never escape them? Or is she saying that we are the sum of our actions - and that Bulstrode's lifetime of good works determine the man that he is?

Jo writes that he fears both eternal damnation AND public exposure. A collision between conscience and desire here. If he had administered the fatal dosages, he would risk exposure. He would be guilty of Raffles'death. His sin of omission could not be proved and was not the result of any action of his. The thought occurs to him that disobedience to Lydgate's orders might not even have been fatal!

There seems to be some logic at work here, that if the public accepts him for his benevolent acts, then God will forgive the measures that he must take to accomplish them.

There is an epigraph at the start of Chapter LXX that puzzles me. -

"Our deeds still travel with us from afar,
And what we have been makes us what we are."

I think Bulstrode is now more afraid of eternal damnation than the threat of public exposure. He seemed to think he has atoned for his sins with his good works. However, he is now willing to accept public expose as further penance that he must endure for his past sins. I think Bulstrode has finally realized that he cannot run from his past. It has caught up with him and he must accept the consequences. That thought gives him courage to stand up to Raffles and let “the chips fall where they may.” This is the way to repent and be pardoned for his past sins.

This quote from Caleb is appropriate, “A man may do wrong, and his will may rise clear out of it, though he can’t get his life clear.” I support Caleb in his confrontation of Bulstrode. He was polite, but firm. Caleb shouldn’t compromise his values in order to have more work; that would be out of character for him.

I didn’t think Raffles was frightened of anything but his own hallucinations. It never occurred to me that he had something to fear. Looks like I may be in for a big surprise in my reading.

Our deeds still travel with us from afar

And what we have been makes us what we are.

I pondered this a great deal. Read and reread it. It seems like a basic rhythym in a Jazz tune. Players "Riff" on it and mix it up but are true to the basic pattern. It is a philosophical statement from GE. No one is completely free fom their past. Different people may have different bits of their past coming back but all of us adhere to the basic tune. In some way, shape or form the past comes back to haunt us.

GE seems not to beleive in redemption or serious change. It is a pessimistic outlook and one she continuously uses throughout MM.

So according to this philosophy Bulstrode would have found a way to rid himself of Riddles . He lies to himself and uses people as well. Harriet is outside of this part of his personality but she too may be drawn in, given the right circumstances. It is like many crooked politicians of today. They are crooked with everyone but their family but eventually the family too is effected.

By the way I'm not saying that the characters in MM don't learn from their mistakes. It seems that they don't always learn the right things. GE suffered a great deal in her life and came upon this attitude as a result.

Judy

I loved this epigraph at the start of Chapter LXX! Perfect for describing Bulstrode’s life thus far, and a perfect lead in for Bulstrode’s actions (or inaction) in this chapter. I think it means that we can’t escape our past; it is an inherent part of us because we are a sum of our experiences. Our personal composition, determined by our past, then determines how we react to the present. In other words, Bulstrode was able to rationalize his past, fencing stolen materials, and then parlayed this past experience into rationalizing his actions (or inaction) which contributed to the timing of Raffles death.

And now Lydgate is caught up in Bulstrodes web of lies and deciet as he knows somehow that Bulstrode contributed to the death of Raffles even if by sin of omission. He himself felt some guilt at the fact he might be wrong and that he also was indebted and grateful to Bulstrode. There is a big question coming up re: Does Rosemond now fritter away his loan so he is deeper in debt....will he still have to move away. Dorothea appears with Mr. Brook at the end and hears all that has hapened while she was away. She will intervine I believe. I am going back and re read 70 and 71 again as there was much I didnt understand. Faith

We know that Lydgate did immediately go and pay off his debts, thank goodness. Rosamond may very well run up more debts, but I think Lydgate will be wiser now in that respect.

My chief reason for thinking Raffles has something to be afraid of, is the great difference between his behavior on this last visit and in the past. The dt's could very well explain it, of course.

It is really frightening how quickly gossip, with little to go on, can tear someone's life to shreds. Bulstrode was guilty, certainly, but IMO Lydgate is not. Yet unless someone can clear him, his reputation is ruined as surely as Bulstrodes.

I find it wonderful how Eliot, with a few pages, can lift a minor character into prominence, and show us a character we cannot help but admire and sympathize with. I had no idea whatever,until Bulstrode's fall, that Harriet Bulstrode was a woman I would very much like to know and call a friend.

Babi

"Our deeds still travel with us from afar...."
The deeds of his past have brought him to the current predicament with Raffles. If he hadn't made the choice to participate in a shady business and then to deceive his first wife about her daughter, he wouldn't be facing disgrace through Raffles now. In a sense what he does or allows to happen now is the result of old sins. Maybe that's the "Two Temptations" -- he gave in to temptation before and he's doing it again to cover up the earlier transgression.
JoanP, this is a gem: " He seems able to force his conscience to conform to his wishes. I'm beginning to understand that his conscience is not something guided from within, but rather measured by his acceptance by others, whether they have the facts or not."
Have you noticed how much public acceptance affects the comfort level of human beings? Not that it's necessarily bad, but it can be the source of self-deception, can it not?

Yeahhhh...I finally found a part of the book I had completely forgotten about.

Re: Question/Thought #2: "Do you think Caleb too harsh in his condemnation?"

I had completely forgotten this part of the book and want to say that in this part I 'fell in love' all over again with Caleb Garth!! I don't think Caleb was too harsh at all, nor do I think he would ever be. I think this entire interaction hurt him as much as what he heard from Raffles about Bulstrode.

I don't understand why I couldn't be forgiving to Casaubon but feel so sorry for Bulstrode. And I agree with those who are now appreciating Mrs. Bulstrode. I, too, could be her friend.

Alliemae

Good morning - I must say right off that I find this section the MOST unsettling of the entire novel. For some reason, I am squirming in my attempt to understand Eliot's underlying message on redemption and forgiveness for past sins. Alliemae, is it just me? You and Laura both found nothing disarming in Caleb's viewpoint?

Yes, I agree with you - Caleb was firm and uncompromising, honorable. He also says he pities Bulstrode, wishes to be merciful. I agree with all that! But it is his (Eliot's?) unwavering belief that Bulstrode deserves pity, that one can never atone for past sins, no matter what - that I found unsettling. Would Farebrother speak to a penitent in such righteous, damning tones?

And then, as if to demonstrate that "jazz riff" - "Our deeds still travel with us from afar" - (loved that metaphor, Judy) - we see Bulstrode persist in the same vein, the same sin of omission.

I'm not sure Bulstrode is ready to accept public exposure yet, Laura. He still seems in the self-justification mode. He hasn't learned anything from his past experience. His conscience is still clear -

"After putting the almost empty opium vial out of sight (didn't Lydgate notice this?) - his conscience was soothed by the enfolding wing of secrecy."

Interesting observation, Judy - Eliot's characters do seem to learn from their experiences, but not always the right thing. Laura - "we are a sum of our experiences" - " they determine how we react to the present." But what about all the good that Bulstrode did? He's spent the last twenty years at least, trying to atone for his sins by self-denial, philanthropy, providing a good home for his family, being a good husband. If he is the sum of his experiences, doesn't the good mean anything? I see his reaction to Bulstrode's presence as an attempt, in part, to shield Harriet and the family. He had been prepared to take her from her hometown and live abroad to protect her. Now the opportunity to preserve their life in Middlemarch presents itself...he holds the "key" in his hand, and succumbs by slipping it through the small opening in the door...

Jo, I'm convinced that the "two temptations" of the title center on Bulstrode's. Either

"he gave in to temptation before and he's doing it again to cover up the earlier transgression."
OR
when he turned over Raffles' care to Mrs. Abel without telling her the dosage order, knowing that she would err - and the second, when he realized the opium might not be enough to kill him, he slips the key to the wine-cellar to her, knowing that Lydgate had warned him that alcohol would be fatal.

Faith, you bring up Lydgate's complicity in the cover-up. I'm wondering about the "riff" - "Our deeds still travel with us from afar" - what was it that prompted Lydgate to overlook the "almost empty opium bottle"? Was it only the fact that Bulstrode had lent him the money he so desperately needed, or something more, some deed in his past that follows him still. Perhaps it was simply his feelings of doubt about the prescribed treatment for Raffles's condition. It was an unorthodox treatment. Maybe he's feeling guilty about his own shortcomings, about his pride in thinking that he knows better than the rest of the Middlemarch medical community. I'm glad you are rereading LXX, you are right, there is much there. I want to reread what Bulstrode was saying about silent prayer. That went right over my head.

Babi, I've never lived in a small town, the only experience I've ever had with gossip was in the small girls' high school I attended. Gossip could take on a life of its own, become FACT in no time and be devastating. I think Lydgate is in greater danger of being destroyed. His medical practice is all he has for support and the blackballing has already begun.

I thought that Caleb made himself clear to Bulstrode that he was not passing judgement on him.

Garth was doing what his personal integrity required of him for his own life and business practices...and at a professional and personal loss. It takes courage to stick to your own beliefs and I think he did it as gently as he could have done.

Alliemae

Does Eliot mean that you can't atone for the past or does she mean you can't escape the effects of what you've done even if you have been doing things to atone for it?

I have mixed feelings about Caleb. In the context, I think he has done the honorable thing. He saw what Lydgate until now has failed to see, that by working for Bulstrode, he would be dependent on him and loose his independence. (I hope this blindness doesn't destroy Lydgate).

On the other hand, are we to be so judgmental and self-righteous that we shun all contact with those we deem "worse" than us? That is what Bulstrode has been doing. Eliot has throughout set up a contrast between Caleb's true morality and goodness, and Bulstrode's "false", self-serving morality. Here, in in the act of judging others, the two come the closest. Eliot tries to show that you can distance yourself from another's actions while not rejecting them as a human being. But it's a fine line, and I'm not sure she pulls it off with Caleb (she does with Mrs. Bulstrode, later).

JO: "Does Eliot mean that you can't atone for the past or does she mean you can't escape the effects of what you've done even if you have been doing things to atone for it?"

That's an excellant question. I'm hoping the ending will tell us.

Well I found Caleb Garth's stand correct but wrong if that is possible.. Perhaps it is too simplistic. It is like Popeye"I y'am what I yam". and of course we all love Popeye. However it is seeing the world in Black and White which is fine for a Cartoon but not for a man. This stance makes Caleb a minor rather than a major character in the book. He always knows the right thing and does it. There are no surprises. Whereas in the Major characters we plummet the depths of sorrow, desire, fear and guilt.

Caleb could never be a major character in a Dostoyevsky novel or even in a novel by a minor author. No Angst whatsoever. There is none in Mary either.Unles her neeed to transform Fred could be considered such. I would love to have them for neighbors but they come into play in this novel only as an ideal which perhaps GE herself strives for but cannot reach. Perhaps she sees "good people" as simple and straightforward who stick to their principles no matter what the circumstances. Perhaps she uses them as a comparison to our convuluted major characters.

It is possible that Bulstrode is equally afraid of eternal damnation and public humiliation. But forced to choose I would say the latter. That is because the people he loves and that love him will find out who he is and perhaps he will lose them. If that happens he will either commit suicide or simply waste away. I have not read further so that is a guess.

(Oh I am so sorely tempted to read on!)

Judy

ALLIEMAE, I wholly agree with your assessment of Caleb Garth's decision re. working for Bulstrode. He could not, in conscience, involve himself in working with a man he knew to be lacking in integrity. He informed Bulstrode in as kindly a manner as could be consistent with firmness. And he spoke not a word to anyone else of what he had learned.

Characters like Garth and Farebrother may not, as JUDY said, be a main character in most novels. But their integrity and consistency provide an important counterpoint to the lapses and inconsistencies of the 'main' characters, don't you think?

Trying to atone for past misdeeds by present good deeds is a step in the right direction, I suppose. But unless the atonement is made to the person who was wronged, no restitution has been made. Certainly our acts do have an effect, probably on more people than we could ever imagine. All we can do about that is acknowledge the wrong, make amends whereever we can, and ask forgiveness. Bulstrode, hoping to avoid disgrace, has done none of these things.

Babi

I'm with Babi on the comments about atonement. One cannot make up for injury against another person without making it right with that person or members of that person's family if the wronged person no longer lives. Bulstrode ran away from his past and persuaded himself that by being what we would now call an Evangelical Christian and living an upright life, he could atone. He jumps right over step one, making amends to the person he has wronged.

Furthermore, he has been judgmental and determined to "win souls." Remember how he wanted a clergyman of his own stripe in the new hospital so that he could convert the poor sick person to what he believes. He will impose his particular brand of Christianity on anyone he can.

Bulstrode is the worse kind of hypocrite, and I admire Caleb for not wanting to work for him. Caleb says he won't breathe a word of what the drunken Raffles told him, but he can't live with himself if he continues to work for Bulstrode. He's a simple, hardworking man with a code of his own and it forbids him from suborning evil doing. Not sure about the use of that word here. (I'm thinking of "suborning perjury" and the verb may not fit here.)

I'm worried about Lydgate, not because of the financial problems and the indebtedness to (shudder) Bulstrode, but because he is unfortunately permanently hooked to Rosamond who seems to be getting meaner and meaner.

Maryal (who has finally caught up and apologizes for her absence)

...is that I remain a 'minor' character in the book of life. A sometimes tedious road but with small curves on the horizon and forks in the road that test my mettle. Rosamund is a major character...Bulstrode is a major character...Casaubon was, I think.

Of course, there is Dorothea...she is major also.

Mrs. Bulstrode is probably considered a minor character.

Yes, please...I'll stay minor if you don't mind...now please, pass me a crumpet, my tea is ready!! Anyone else for a crumpet? (grinning)

(group HUG for this wonderful, diverse, and intense group...I LOVE it!!)

Alliemae

JoanP said, “But it is his (Eliot's?) unwavering belief that Bulstrode deserves pity, that one can never atone for past sins, no matter what.”

I didn’t feel Caleb or Eliot was saying that one can never atone for past sins. I think what is being said is that even though one can and does atone for past sins, that they still will always be a part of his life. Bulstrode is an extreme case in which his past literally does come back to haunt him and his reputation, in a real, physical sense. The more common way that one’s past affects a person is through his own mind.

JoanP said, “But what about all the good that Bulstrode did? He's spent the last twenty years at least, trying to atone for his sins by self-denial, philanthropy, providing a good home for his family, being a good husband. If he is the sum of his experiences, doesn't the good mean anything?”

I think the good should mean something. I can’t help but think the people of Middlemarch would think that Bulstrode’s twenty years of good behavior, so to speak, would mean something too. If this old business had come up, but there had been no new news or circumstances in Bulstrode’s life for people to talk about, then I think it would have blown over. There would have been some damage, like Caleb not wanting to work for him, but I think he could have weathered the storm. However, Bulstrode created a new scandal with Raffles’ death, and managed to catch Lydgate up in it. I find myself asking the same question back to you then Joan --- But what about all the good that Bulstrode did? I think his character is the same now as it was in the past, as proven by his actions with regards to Raffles’ death. All that good is not the true character of Bulstrode. All that good is Bulstrode trying to make up for the flaws his true character. Caleb is more perceptive that others in Middlemarch, so I think he sees the real Bulstrode. The other Middlemarchers love the gossip and are thinking of Bulstrode in a more detached way.

So many good points yesterday - and this morning... First, the question about Caleb Garth and how we are viewing his comments to Bulstrode when he had to cancel his dealings with Bulstrode. (Poor Fred! He was supposed to manage and maybe even buy Stone Court - and marry Mary with this arrangement!) But it wasn't a difficult decision for Caleb, because he is a man of principle and couldn't possibly continue with Bulstrode. I think we all admire him for that. JoanK has pointed out the contrast between Caleb's true morality and goodness, and Bulstrode's "false", self-serving morality.

But is Caleb a bit too good to be true? Judy sees him as a minor character in this novel because he sees the world in black and white, knows the right thing and does it without hesitation. It couldn't have been an easy decision for him, but he makes it without "plummeting the depths" of human emotion.

"He informed Bulstrode in as kindly a manner as could be consistent with firmness." I agree with you, Babi, and I liked it that he had no intention of telling anyone. But he didn't even tell his wife. Remember, Caleb doesn't know that Bulstrode has tried to make it up to Will, when he tells him that he pities him because there is nothing he can ever do to right what he has done in the past.

Jo, I'm hung up on the word "atone" - Babi, Maryal what if you try to seek atonement from the person who has been wronged and that person refuses you? What if you try to make restitution to that person's family and like Will, they refuse your offer? It seems that there is no way for Bulstrode to make this matter right - EXCEPT for ONE thing you mention, Babi - a public acknowledgment of his past deeds.

Laura - in spite of all his good works, you see Bulstrode's character the same now as it was in the past, as proven by his actions with regards to Raffles’ death." We've seen the lengths he has gone to in order to make sure that his past is not acknowledged. The irony is that everyone now knows what he has done...after the meeting the "news" is all over Middlemarch, spreading like bee pollen. It seems everyone will know it before "poor Harriet" and Rosamond. It IS ever so tempting to move ahead to learn of their reactions. And what will become of their husbands? I see no future for either of them in Middlemarch. I see not happy ending, do you all? (If you succumb, and read ahead, try to keep it under your hat(?) for the sake of those who have not, okay?)

Babi brings up Farebrother - I can't help but wonder what he would have done - or said to Bulstrode if he had been the one to come upon Raffles in the road, instead of Caleb Garth. Farebrother likes Will - and doesn't care for Bulstrode, but somehow I don't see his words as damning - and I personally still feel they were damning - that Caleb, in all his simplicity, was righteous and judgmental. Maybe Bulstrode needed to hear these words. All Caleb knows is Raffles' allegation that Bulstrode cheated Will of a fortune. He doesn't know any of the particulars. The irony is - Will's mother probably would have turned it down for the same reasons Will did - and Bulstrode would have had the money anyway!

Alliemae, you speak with wisdom. It really isn't so bad playing a minor role in the book of life, is it? Beats making the headlines! (Wonderful, diverse, yes...but do you really find us "intense?" Us, intense? ahhaha...

ps. Still thinking of Dorothea's role. Right now she has a lot of money she wants to spend. I'm wondering if she isn't going to remain an idealistic character, wanting to play a larger role, but never finding the opportunity. Do you think Uncle Brooke has told her about Will's inheritance and what Bulstrode has done to him? With all her money, how can she possibly help Lydgate? (If you've read ahead, no fair answering this one.) Does she have influence in Middlemarch? I think she'll have to enlist Farebrother's

MARYAL: welcome back! We’ve missed you, but no apology necessary – we know your duty to your students comes first. Are you out of the semester? (When I was in grad school, you could tell who had finished the semester by their faces, but since I can’t see you, I have to ask).

JUDY: thank you for resisting the temptation to read ahead. We need you in the discussion. And thank you all who have read ahead for coming back in. There’s plenty to talk about without talking about the ending.

“[Caleb is] seeing the world in Black and White which is fine for a Cartoon but not for a man. This stance makes Caleb a minor rather than a major character in the book. He always knows the right thing and does it. There are no surprises. Whereas in the Major characters we plummet the depths of sorrow, desire, fear and guilt.

What an excellent point!! I hadn’t thought of it that way, but you are absolutely right!! Indeed, Mrs. Bulstrode, who had hardly even BEEN a character up to now, will emerge more strongly in our memory.

Although, to contradict myself, I told a friend who had read Middlemarch many years ago, that I was reading it. The one character that she remembered and had impressed her strongly was Caleb.

“Caleb could never be a major character in a Dostoyevsky novel”.

No, but there are characters very like him in Tolstoy. However, they are not the characters we read his books for. And everyone knows Tolstoy was an impractical dreamer.

I agree, BABI. We need Caleb and Farebrother as counterpoints, to show more clearly what is wrong with Bulstrode’s morality and Lydgate’s attitude toward women.

“All we can do about that is acknowledge the wrong, make amends wherever we can, and ask forgiveness. Bulstrode, hoping to avoid disgrace, has done none of these things.

And change the attitude toward other human beings that led us to the bad acts in the first place. Bulstrode certainly hasn’t done that. His good deeds so far have been a reflection of his bad ones: assuming that he is more important than other people, and can run their lives to suit him.

ALLIEMAE: “ My hope for myself then... ...is that I remain a 'minor' character in the book of life. A sometimes tedious road but with small curves on the horizon and forks in the road that test my mettle”.

All right! Although we are all major characters in our life story. I’ll have a crumpet, thanks. Pass the butter.

“(group HUG for this wonderful, diverse, and intense group...I LOVE it!!)

Group hug it is!! I just realized we’re almost finished, and I’m starting to get Middlemarch withdrawal symptoms. I’ll REALLY miss this group (hopefully I’ll see all of you in other discussions, but not the same group). You have made my first try at being a DL great!

...and JoanK, another lesson - listen to others with openess when they try to make amends for past offenses. I've got a high school friend, was probably my best friend - I was maid of honor in her wedding. She did something very petty, not serious, but so amazingly selfish, and then spread it around that I did something to her - I simply deleted her from my address book and have ignored her Christmas cards and attempts to right things over the years, thinking that I don't need that kind of a friend. But maybe she needs to make amends and is unable to do that until I accept her...on any terms. Who knows, maybe I need her too. This year is our 50th high school reunion. Surely we'll be together again...she's organizing it. Maybe I'll go write her a Christmas card - if I can find her address.

Back to Middlemarch...I keep thinking of Will's mother's response if Bulstrode had located her before marrying her mother. Would she have wanted that money, knowing it was ill-gotten? I think not. She would have turned it down just as Will did. Then Bulstrode would not have had that secret to keep all those years. I'm wondering who this man was, her father, Will's grandfather, Dunkirk. Don't you hope that Eliot lets us in on the reason Will's grandmother was ostracized from her side of the family, Casaubon's side, before all is over and done with? That question has been haunting ever since Dorothea laid eyes on the miniature of Casaubon's mother and aunt.

What answers are you looking for in the last book? I'd like to know more about Raffles but not as much as I want to know about Will's grandmother...

I want an answer to Will's parentage, and his and Dorothea's love story. I also want an answer to Mary and Fred's love story. I am afraid for them now that Mr. Garth is up on his high horse and wont take Stonybrook for Fred to manage. I personally do feel that Garth was very judgmental as Joanp said. But as to Bulstrode he has not changed in his basic character since he was young, getting away with things and never even having a bad conscience. He simply doesn't want people to know and that is his motivation not a motivation to truly reform as I don't believe people who are like Bulstrode really have a conscience and or morals. They just operate on a different level and I am afraid that Dorthea will have to save them both in order to help Lydgate which will tangle her in B's web. Faith

I care about all the characters but how can I be curious about a person who is always "good" and "right". They don't need me to care for them. They are insulated. Perhaps Mrs. Garth wonders about her hubby's secrets. She seems more real than Caleb and Mary.

When we read in depth about the actions of some of our greatest men (Thomas Jefferson, John Adams etc.) we see they certainly didn't always do the "right thing".. They did many deeds because of expediency or passions. This doesn't take away from their great accomplishments. But I digress.

I want to know what happens to Will, Dorothea, Lydgate, Rosamond and Fred. All of these characters need to change in some way in order to acheive a modicum of happiness. Hopefully GE ends the book on an upbeat note for most of these people. Another question is :"will these changes come from within or without?"

Too bad we all can't get together to celebrate the ending, whatever it may be.

Judy

"All that good is Bulstrode trying to make up for the flaws his true character."

I think LAURA put her finger on an essential point here. Bulstrode never did acknowledge, even in his on mind, that he had done wrong. He used his 'good deeds' with the money he gained to justify what he had done. Then, when he began trying to wiggle out of his sense that 'Providence' was displeased with him, he tries to make it good by offering Will some money. But even then he keeps harping on the point that he, Bulstrode, has not done anything wrong, but is doing this because he is such a fine, Christian man.

I believe a person who has done wrong can turn around and do what is right. But that turning around has to begin with acknowledging the wrong. The old religious terms of repentance, confession, atonement....they're very real things, aren't they?

As for asking for forgiveness and being refused, that is out of our hands, isn't it? The person who cannot forgive is the one carrying the burden from that point, and harms only himself with his unforgiveness.

Babi

Perhaps I am naive, but I think that Caleb Garth is a strong, interesting, and likeable character.

Although Caleb Garth is a very good, kind, honest man, he is far from perfect, as we have seen in earlier chapters. Upon occasion, his trusting nature has created problems for his family. He has handled financial matters poorly and has gotten into financial straits so that his family lived more poorly than they might have. Caleb lent money to Fred without discussing it first with his wife. The result was that his son was unable to receive the education planned for him. Caleb was forced to ask his daughter for her savings. Caleb's wife gets frustrated with him and has spoken sharply to him. Caleb has felt guilty over not providing more for his family.

Caleb does think positively and sees good in people until they prove otherwise. But, I think he is very human and he has human failings. He has been blessed with a good wife with common sense who helps him and supports him. The two Garth parents have good parenting skills and have raised a family of unspoiled children.

Caleb and his family are drawn as a strong contrast to characters such as the Vincy's and the Lydgates and help to show that money and position are not the important things in life.

That Caleb is now passing up a great opportunity for Fred and Mary does not indicate to me that Caleb is so very good or so morally superior. It indicates to me that he has heard something terrible about Bulstrode from Raffles and he cannot work for someone like that. But, rather than run off to gossip about it or deride Bulstrode about it, Caleb in his typical quiet, gentle, firm manner, tells Bustrode that he cannot work for him.

I think Eliot's words that follow are important regarding Bulstrode: "Strange, piteous conflict in the soul of this unhappy man, who had longed for years to be better than he was."

The fact was that he was NOT better, even though he longed to be. He has been a thief, a bully, a manipulator, and is now a murderer. He out and out murdered Raffles, no question, even though he didn't weild a knife. Bulstrode has constantly struggled with himself, which makes him an interesting character, does attempt at times - when he is afraid - to atone for his sins, but he is basically bad and can be evil. (Uh, oh, the "E" word again.)

Lydgate said to Bulstrode about Raffles: "I should not wonder if he got better in a few days, by adhering to the treatment I have prescribed. There must be firmness. Remember, if he calls for liquors of any sort, not to give them to him." Lydgate "had taken the precaution of bringing opium in his pocket, and he gave minute directions to Bulstrode as to the doses, and the point at which they should cease. He insisted on the risk of not ceasing; and repeated his order that no alcohol should be given."

You can't be clearer than that.

Bulstrode struggled and argued with himself over what to do. But, his struggles all led to one act - the act of murder. He deliberately kept silent about when to stop the opium doses and he told Mrs. Abel she could find plenty of brandy for Raffles in the wine-cooler.

Then Bulstrode woke up early and prayed.

When Bulstrode found Raffles dead: "As he sat there and beheld the enemy of his peace going irrevocably into silence, he felt more at rest than he had done for many months. His conscience was soothed by the enfolding wing of secrecy, which seemed just then like an angel sent down for his relief."

On top of that, Bulstrode bribed Lydgate into silence by loaning him the money. Bulstrode was not sure what Raffles had revealed about him to Lydgate. Lydgate now was in his debt.

Lydgate subconciously understood this. "...there crossed his mind, with an unpleasant impression, as from a dark-winged flight of evil augury across his vision, the thought of that contrast in himself which a few months had brought -- that he should be overjoyed at being under a strong personal obligation -- that he should be overjoyed at getting money for himself from Bulstrode."

Marni

I have not yet read further than this week’s reading, so no need to worry that I may know something when I make these next comments.

I think the ending will be mixed, happy, or at least neutral for some, but unhappy for others. I can’t imagine at this point how all these loose ends will be tied up (that is why I am a reader and not a writer - LOL).

As for what I would like answered, here is my list: Who marries who, Who stays married, How Bulstrode’s life is affected by the exposure of his secret past, How and if Lydgate can disentangle himself from Bulstrode, What the future holds for Dorothea.

"As for asking for forgiveness and being refused, that is out of our hands, isn't it? The person who cannot forgive is the one carrying the burden from that point, and harms only himself with his unforgiveness".

That is so true. I have a friend who carries around with her every bad thing, no matter how small, that anyone ever did to her. Knowing her has been an important lesson for me: I can clearly see in someone else what I can't see in myself: how this anger and unforgiveness is exactly like a burden that my friend is carrying on her back. The people she doesn't forgive have moved on, and are not hurt by it, but she is stuck in the past and keeps getting rehurt. I hope I am wise enough to remember that when something comes up in my life. (Hmmm, I'll have to think about my next door neighbor again).

What I hope to learn: I do care what happens to these people, that is definitely part of Eliot's skill. I'm also very interested in the question we raised here: does Eliot believe that people can change? Do we believe that people can change?

Another snow day in the Washington DC area...all schools closed. Kids were out playing in the icy, slushy stuff - it was only 8:35! Send 'em to school! Is it supposed to be a snowy winter this year?

Marni makes a good case for Caleb's "likability" - a very good, kind, honest man, though far from perfect." I'm still not sure what makes him "tick" - Do you agree with Judy that "Caleb and his family are drawn as a strong contrast to characters such as the Vincy's and the Lydgates to show that money and position are not the important things in life?" I don't really care about the Vincys either - though they are in financial straits too. Maybe I don't care about "examples."

Faith, does Eliot herself like and admire Caleb Garth, or is he in Dorothea's category - both portrayed with a strong sense of what is right and what is wrong, but too good for the world in which they live? Caleb sounds like someone Eliot is using, rather than holding him up for us to like or dislike...

I'll agree with Judy - he doesn't need me to care about him - he's good, honest, admirable - likable too, but I am not concerned about what happens to him because I already know all there is to know about him.

JoanK, I don't think Caleb will change. But can he? Is there any need for him to change? Does one change only when there is a need to do so? I like your question, Joan - "do we believe that people can change?" Or, as Eliot appears to be saying (at times) - we are the sum of the person we have been...and past experience dictates how we will react to given situations. A tough question, isn't it? I LIKE to believe that people can change...but they have to really WANT to change. Who wants change in this novel - to change himself? Fred? And?

In order to save Lydgate, Faith believes that Dorothea will have to save Bulstrode too. A tall order, Fai! I'm remembering that Lydgate is determined NOT to leave Bulstrode's side in order to acquit himself...and Bulstrode shows no signs of helping to restore Lydgate's reputation by making it clear that he went against his medical advice. I worry that Dorothea can only do so much, that she is too much of an idealist to have an impact in the real world. Already she's been proven out of step with the world in her desire to create a perfect community in which everyone loves one another. How much influence does she really have in Middlemarch?

I see a extremely complex character in Bulstrode - not black/white, good/evil. Marni, yes, he did wake up after "murdering" Raffles" - in good spirits - and prayed. Still operating within the framework that he is doing God's will. In prayer, he hears the voice of God whispering ways in which he can continue doing good for mankind...if only this one obstacle is out of the way. Delusional...but he believes in his soul that he is making a choice that will be of more benefit that if Raffles' revelation puts a stop to God's work.
To acknowledge that he was too zealous in this attempt and did something wrong that will negate every good thing he has ever done would destroy him. It doesn't seem to be an option. Not then, not now.

"Strange, piteous conflict in the soul of this unhappy man, who had longed for years to be better than he was." Hmmm, is it safe to say that he still wishes to be better than he is? If one wishes to be better, isn't that the first step towards change? Maybe the first step is to own up to wrong-doing and then to desire change. Back to JoanK's question - can one change? Even at the 11th hour? Is it ever too late to change?

Do you see Bulstrode as a hypocrite or mentally conflicted?

It will be interesting to see if Eliot goes back and picks up all the unanswered situations presented in earlier books, or not. Judy - "Hopefully GE ends the book on an upbeat note for most of these people." And Laura anticipates a mixed ending. Is it possible that Eliot will leave us with the possibility of a happy outcome for everyone somewhere down the road - but not actually end the story? That doesn't sound very Victorian to me - will she deviate from the traditional Victorian ending, or remain a woman of her time?

Re: "but he [Bulstrode] believes in his soul that he is making a choice that will be of more benefit that if Raffles' revelation puts a stop to God's work."

I think Bustrode is simply rationalizing his evil deed.

I hope that there is NOT a happy outcome for Bulstrode. He is a villain and deserves the worst. I believe he will get what is coming to him. His downward spiral has already begun and is now snowballing. I don't think Eliot will stop it.

Marni

Snow, snow, snow here on the coast of Maine! The kids are thrilled and I am enjoying it too. You don’t live here if you don’t enjoy snow. We have the best of both worlds --- the beach in the summer and the snow in the winter. At least the kids waited until after Labor Day this year before they asked, “How much longer until it snows?” I am not kidding! They put away their boogie boards and are immediately ready to get out their sleds.

I completely agree with Judy that "Caleb and his family are drawn as a strong contrast to characters such as the Vincy's and the Lydgates to show that money and position are not the important things in life?" Both families seem more “extreme” that way (I sound like I have been influenced by TV with the use of that term).

Change…Have any of the characters we have met in Middlemarch changed yet? Not that I can remember, and we are through 700 out of 800 pages. Time is running out. To me, no one has deviated from his or her true character yet.

I cannot imagine how Dorothea is going to save Lydgate. She must know something that we as readers don’t in order to even think that she can have some influence over public opinion.

Did anyone find themselves expecting Bulstrode to murder Raffles? I did. I just kept reading, waiting to see HOW he would do it. I fully expected him to have more direct involvement. I truly felt him both desperate and capable of “pulling the trigger” himself.

Almost time to pick up the book again…

MARNI: I don't see how there could be a "happy" outcome for Bulstrode. I could see him moving somewhere else, and quickly "forgetting" about the things he has done.

I'm glad you all enjoy snow so much. I wish I could regain my childhood enjoyment of it.

LAURA: good point. Has anyone really changed yet? D. is the person she was but, I think, has gained in self confidence. Fred is trying to change: we will have to see how that goes. L. has changed, perhaps for the worse, losing his idealism and vision, and becoming more mature financially and more limited (perhaps more realistic) in what he tries to do. We assume Will is changing: stopping gadding about and trying to settle into a profession.

But they change within the bounds of who they are. These are the realistic changes of degree, not kind, that we all undergo as we mature.

Re: "I cannot imagine how Dorothea is going to save Lydgate."

Perhaps the saintly Dorothea can perform miracles!

I do like philosophical questions like this one that has come up with first, Does Eliot believe people can change and has now, thanks to JoanK, morphed into whether or not we believe people can change.

I have changed a great deal in several ways. I'll give one example--I used to be so avid to get whatever I had to say into a conversation that I would "pretend listen" to another person while I was actually going over what I planned to say, rehearsing it or tweaking it.

Now I actually do listen. I concentrate on what the other person has to say and have found that it is genuinely interesting to listen and that I gain more from listening than I used to from honing my own skill at talking.

I have changed in other ways as well but most of the changes have come about as a result of being broken.

Perhaps we do have to be forced into change or even the idea that we might need to change.

After all, if everything is going along smoothly in your life, why go to all the trouble to change?

Just thinking out loud.

Maryal

I do not think Bulstrode is a hypocrite exactly. I think is a sociopath though that term had not been used in his day. Still he does what they do, puts on the color, of the society he wants to be in and acts in acceptable even admirable ways while gaining his own ends which are food his own appetites ...in some it would be sexual deviation, in some getting money and position at all cost, even murder, and I am sure in some there would be other survival skills at work but these people do not have a conscience as the rest of society defines it.

I for one was in such agony as an eight year old who stole a penny candy from the store that I had to confess to the owner and swept the whole store out to pay for it. My conscience would never allow me to steal again. I often think some people are just plain genetically born with the sociopath's nature. faith

Faith, Wow.! You are off the mark if you consider Bulstrode a sociopath. He is dishonest and devious but the person he murdered was a foul, cruel alcoholic criminal who beat his wife and child.The man was blackmailing him as well. That does not excuse Bulstrodes'actions but it certainly explains them within the norm of human behavior.

I will give you a description of a true sociopath and them you can decide.

Antisocial Personality Disorder is a Mental Health Problem with a chronic course and some remission around the forth decade of life. The person may lack empathy and tend to be callous, cynical and contemptuous of others. They may feel that ordinary work is beneath them or lack a realistic concern about their current problems or their future. Inflated self-appraisal and superficial charm are notable. These individuals may be irresponsible and exploitive in their sexual relationships as well. They are extremely irresponsible as parents and may not worry at all about a childs nutrition or hygiene. They squander money needed for household needs with no compunction.

This is only a PARTIAL list of some attributes of a Sociopath. Raffles is closer to this description than Bulstrode. The latter is a tortured soul who has made some awful mistakes but he is tortured by them. A sociopath never agonizes over anything he does.He certainly doesn't care about the suffering of his wife and children.

I'm sure GE put him in the book for a purpose as he is now pivotal in the action. She would not take pity on a true sociopath nor would I.

Judy

OHO! DEEMS, you are not alone. I have done that myself, more often than I care to remember. When I'm supposed to be listening I'm honing my arguments instead. At least I can say, like you, that I became aware of what I was doing and began making a conscious effort to listen to what the other person was saying.

Of course, people can change. How many times have we seen someone headed on a self-destructive path who was able, with help, to turn around and make a good life for themselves. I know of hellions who became sincere, devoted ministers of God.

I do believe, tho', that major change is not going to come about in anyone's life so long as they are comfortable with where they are.

Babi

Maryal...I've always wished I had the brain power and time to research the importance of the part irritation/counter-irritation play in change and growth. For instance...that bit of irritating sand being responsible for the pearl, that kind of thing.

Smooth roads are easy on the car but the scenery is not always the best, and there's hardly ever any excitement on the ride.

Guess I'm thinking out loud too...

Also, I've been peeping into the book discussion "When Jesus Came to Harvard" whilst I wait for the library to get the book for me and I think that from the way they are discussing the teachings of the Rabbi Jesus regarding moral dilemmas, I bet there's an article to be had in comparing/applying his advice and parables with the way GE's folks have handled their many, many moral dilemmas! I wonder...

Alliemae

"Bulstrode is simply rationalizing his evil deed." Marni, a man who can cause the death of another and wake up with a clear conscience is quite a "rationalizer." I guess it takes years of practice.

I see no happy outcome on the horizon for him and wonder how Dorothea can possibly "save" Lydgate and/or Bulstrode. I don't see what influence she has - but perhaps her belief in Lydgate's innocence will come into play - or her money can put things right with the folks in Middlemarch. But IF Judy and Laura are right - that Eliot is saying "money and position" are not the important things in life" - then these might not be the way to Lydgate's salvation. One might hope that his character will speak for itself in the end.

Laura, I thought Raffles was going to die, but no, I wasn't expecting "murder" - didn't think Bulstrode would go as far as he did - didn't think this was that kind of a novel. Eliot did slowly build up the concept of death being the one way to silence him though - beginning with the epilogue to the chapter. "If thou hast heard a word, let it die with thee." Ecclesiasticus Bulstrode probably got the idea that God approved the death upon reading the Scripture. Alliemae, I'd like to hear more from the Jesus at Harvard discussion on the impact Scripture on moral dilemmas. It often seems that reading and interpreting Scripture can either side of a dilemma. Interpretation depends so much on subjectivity!

Like Fai, I think this goes beyond hypocrisy. Judy, can you explain his behavior as a psychological phenomenon - not to excuse him, but to explain his mindset that would lead him to conclude that Raffles is an abomination and should not live to cause more havoc in the lives of good people?

Reading your posts, it seems we ALL believe that WE can change. We also believe that we have to see the need for change first. What about help from others? Do we need help to make significant change in our outlook on life, or can we do it alone? Fred does seem to want to change - and he surely has help from Mary, from Caleb Garth, from Farebrother.

Fred, to me, is the LITMUS test to learn whether Eliot believes that man's nature is set, the sum of his past experience - or whether he can change his nature. Isn't it funny, after all this time, we still don't know this. Eliot may have been building the case for change throughout these first seven books - what do you think? Aren't you excited to see how it all comes together in Book Eight? I find its title interesting, the order presented - Sunset and Sunrise. After thinking about it for a bit, I'm seeing cause for optimism...

Deems says - “I have changed in other ways as well but most of the changes have come about as a result of being broken.”

Oh my- profound one, that gives me pause. (I love any comment that gives me pause.) I’ve been thinking about that thought all morning.

All of these characters, in their own ways have been broken, shattered or defeated haven’t they? Some have come unglued and committed murder (in a round about way) some ruined like Lydgate, spent, like Ros; hesitant like Fred or crestfallen like DoDo. Change is inevitable when faced with disaster, large or small. We all learn to accommodate and adapt to disaster. It’s called survival! Each of these characters have alternated and shifted gears as they learned to adjust and modify their behaviors. This part of the story reminds me of the old St. Francis of Assieli prayer:

where there is hatred let me sow love- Where there is injury- pardon
Where there is doubt, faith;
Where there is despair, hope;
Where there is darkness, light;
Where there is sadness, joy!

JUDY: that’s very interesting. Could you cite your source?

Do you know if there any research or theories about the causes of this personality disorder? Are there any treatments that have been effective? (Presumably the person does not feel he needs treatment, but I can see it being court ordered).

We’ll see if Eliot has any pity for (non-sociopath) Bulstrode. So far, her capacity for pity has surprised me.

DEEMS AND BABI: boy, I sure recognize that non-listening in myself. I have changed too. I think it was not from self awareness, rather, I found it was boring, listening to myself all the time. I never learned anything.

You and ALLIEMAE are right – crisis or discomfort brings about change for better or worse. My feeling, though, is that the change is always within a framework. I haven’t thought about it clearly enough to be able to say whether there are some attributes that change and some that don’t. But I think I have changed, but only in certain ways. Other things are still there.

ALF: I have always loved that St. Francis prayer. Do you think anyone in MM is trying to live by it? Is Eliot?

Here is the whole thing:

ST FRANCIS PRAYER

Joan, per your request, I interviewed Nicholas Bulstrode (NICK) and this is what he had to say for himself:

"You remember that fellow Raffles that was blackmailing me? He's dead and I think my troubles are over. I feel less tense and worried now. I hadn't eaten in days but this morning I was able to put some food in my stomach. I even managed to smile at my wife."

When I inquired to the logistics of the death he said:

"Well the housekeeper gave him some Alcohol when he wasn't supposed to have it. Raffles was a horrible man anyway. He wanted the money I meant for the hospital. Instead of giving it to him I helped Lydgate, the good Doctor, out of bankruptcy.

Raffles was a godless drunk............. I'm sure God meant for the money to go for His Good Works than for it to be turned into Alcohol to be poured down the gullet of that blackmailer!"

Well Joan ,not a very satisfying explanation. We can pull it apart in a second. However this is Bulstrode, not us. He is as the Author, GE, made him and we must take him as he was created.

Judy

JUDY:Thank you for doing such a good interview. Dan Rather, move over!

Judy that is a good interview. I am thinking over my diagnosis and I may come up with a different view. Thanks ..fai

What do you think of Dorothea's comment that she believes most people are better than their neighbors think they are? That had my eyebrows going up.

I think of the countless times someone from an ordinary neighborhood is found to be guilty of some awful crime, and the neighbors invariably say he was such a nice man; she was such a friendly neighbor. They just can't believe he/she would have done such a thing!

How many of us even know our neighbors? I know very little of mine to tell the truth. They seem pleasant enough, busy, as I am, with their own affairs. I don't know...maybe Dorothea's comment only applies to those small communities where everybody knows everybody else and a secret has a very short shelf life.

Babi

Joan K,

Some of the material re Sociopath comes from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders and some comes from hearing about this disorder, studying the symptoms etc. I have some very little experience with these people but after working with one or two you know that only the heaviest of Societys rules will rein them in. They are of course adjudicated to therapy in some cases but very few therapists can take more than one or two on their caseload and will do anything not to work with them. The majority end up in jail for Child Abuse or Spousal Abuse or more heinous crimes than these. The only ones who can be helped are their Victims.

Many of these people suffered severe abuse or neglect as children with no mediating factors to help them cope with the abuse.They grew up with little or no conscience or values instilled. They do not usually gravitate to a Religous institution although there are a few exceptions.

Bulstrode is not a Sociopath by these standards but he certainly has some severe personality problems. A bit "Twisted" if you will. Yes a round of therapy would have helped forty years ago(in his twenties) but now he is who he is. Sad , very sad ,but true.

Judy

Loved the interview, Judy! Thanks. I feel like we need a little humor with this book about now.

Babi, I had not taken notice of Dorothea’s comment regarding neighbors. Upon reflection, it made me think of a story I heard some years back which went something like this:

One person who had just moved to a new town asked another person who was living in the new town, “What are the people like here?” The established resident asked the new resident, “What were the people like where you came from?” The new resident replied, “Oh, they were wonderful --- friendly, interested in the well-being of the community, honest, hard working, etc.” The established resident then replied, “That’s the kind of people you will find here too.” (Now for the really interesting part) The established resident would have made the same reply to the new resident even if the new resident had said quite the opposite of her old community, commenting on how awful everyone was. How and why this could be true, you may wonder. Because people seek out the same types of people and establish themselves in new communities the same way as they did in their old communities.

I believe Dorothea’s statement. I am fortunate enough to know lots of my neighbors on a casual, social basis. I feel very lucky to live in a neighborhood where people know and care about each other.

Applying Dorothea’s comment to the wider world, with all people as our neighbors, I still think she is right. I think that by and large, people are good people. Everywhere. But, based on my story, maybe I am just experiencing what I expected.

That’s my philosophical thought for the day. Now to start on next week’s reading!

BABI: yes, a city is different as far as knowing your neighbors.When my kids were little, I knew all of the neighbors with kids the same age, but once I went back first to school and then work, I entered another world. In this mobile area, many of the people I knew then have moved on.

My husband, who worked at home for years, still somehow manages to know them all, not only on the same block, but all around. We can’t drive through the neighborhood without him waving to someone where I have to ask “Who is that?” But still, this is all very superficial. He doesn’t know any of them really well, we all have our own lives.

But still, when we had a crisis when a broken water main almost destroyed our house, I know who reached out to help us.

It seems very cold, but I don’t know if I would like the small town alternative. When I was teaching in Israel, The principle once pulled me aside and told me that one of my students had seen me going into a PG13 movie last night and I wasn’t setting a good example for my students. I was completely flabbergasted.

JUDY: that is very interesting and sad. When I worked doing research on victims of head injury (I’ve had a lot of jobs), I know there was a theory (based on the high incidence of past incidents of head injury among convicts on Death Row) that head injury was a cause. But it hadn’t been disentangled. Children who grow up in the kind of environment you describe are extremely likely to get head injuries. I know they did some research on it after I left, but did not keep up.

LAURA: “Because people seek out the same types of people and establish themselves in new communities the same way as they did in their old communities”

And people see other people the same way. It’s the old “the glass is half full or half empty”. Most of us are part good and part bad. I believe most people have a lot of good in them, and try to look for I and respond to it. But I’ve had to admit that there are some whose “bad” makes them a real danger to others.

Goodness, BOOK VIII! I must dmit to goosebumps this morning as we come into the home stretch! The sun is setting in Middlemarch, but a sunrise promised. The title suggests to me that the sun will come up tomorrow for our beleaguered principles. Perhaps Dorothea has something magical up her sleeve - some extraordinary miraculous power other than her money and position that we haven't considered. The question is - can she help everyone? Can she help herself?

"What do we live for if not to make life less difficult to one another?" D. doesn't seem to consider herself - her own needs. Do most people live for the happiness of others? Is Eliot portraying Dorothea as "different" - "the cygnet among the ducklings in the brown pond?" This is the answer I am looking for in this last book. Does Dorothea have needs? Will she make a move for her own happiness, or does she really live for others?

Babi brings up another important question - Dorothea's belief that most people are better than their neighbors think they are? Is she referring to the gossip that is destroying Lydgate's practice? Has she heard the details of the story Raffles was spreading regarding Will's parentage? Will doesn't seem to be in her mind at all, does he? Either she has heard the story and dismisses it as gossip or old news, or no one has informed her of the reasons why Bulstrode withheld his inheritance. What do you think?

At any rate, she is determined to clear Lydgate, without any help from her friends or family - certainly not Sir James, and even the Rev. Farebrother seems to think that she is making a mistake...

I want to tell you that I am working at the SN resource center this week for the White House Council on Aging...and am showing you off to those who come to use the computers. The conference just got underway yesterday - Several of the delegates are already interested in our Book discussions - because of YOU!

WOW! Being shone off. OK, people, shine! (as you always do).

Even when we don't shine, we learn a lot, make good friends, and have a lot of fun. Can't beat that, for a few minutes a day sitting at your computer.

It is JoanP who shines. I've seen her in action, and I'll bet she is the star of the show.

Back to Middlemarch, where things aren't too shiny at the minute. All of our friends, and some of our less than friends are in trouble. What will Eliot do with them? I trust her too much to believe she'll pull a phony happy ending out of her pocket for everyone. But the "sunrises" promise us at least some new beginnings.

A new section of the book! And maybe I'll be able to contribute...I've forgotten so much!!

I promise to NOT write any 'spoilers' though.

I'm off to review the chapters having to do with these new considerations.

WOW...Book Discussions sure take the 'BLUE' out of Mondays!!!

Peace, Alliemae

I noted this comment of Mr. Farebrothers: "It is true that a woman may venture on some efforts of sympathy which would hardly succeed if we men undertook them."

That strikes me as very true. Where most men might be offended if another man offered them 'sympathy' on their problems, they seem to accept and excuse it in a woman. I suppose because women are still seen as being naturally of a sympathetic and caring nature.

On thinking about it, it seems that generally men accept from other men only that sort of unspoken understanding that one finds between brothers and close friends. All others are seen as intrusive or officious.

Of course, women are frequently intrusive and officious as well. I guess for either gender, it's a case of whether we are close friends, or simply busybodies.

Babi

In the chapters that we have just completed GE has thrown in all the Philosophy and DEEP THOUGHTS that she had somehow missed up till now.And I thought that in this part action might have spoken louder than words.

More than anything else I was struck by her comparison of Dorothea to St. Teresa. Finally the prelude to the book makes complete sense.

"Here and there is born a St Theresa, foundress of nothing, whose loving heartbeats and sobs after an unattained goodness tremble off and are dispersed among hindrances, instead of centering in some long-recognizable deed."

"With dim lights and tangled circumstance they tried to shape their thought and deed in noble agreement; but after all, to common eyes their struggles seemed mere inconsistency and formlessness; for these later-born Theresas were helped by no coherent social faith and order which could perform the function of knowledge for the ardently willing soul.Their ardor alternated between a vague ideal and the common yearning ofwomanhood; so that one was disapproved as extravagance, and the other condemned as a lapse"

After rereading the prelude again(and once again) I felt terrible for Dorothea and do not expect any happy endings for her.I hope I am wrong.

Judy

Welcome to any new people who have dropped in. Pull up a chair.

ALLIEMAE: happy reading.

BABI: “it seems that generally men accept from other men only that sort of unspoken understanding that one finds between brothers and close friends. All others are seen as intrusive or officious. “

I wouldn’t know, not having been included in those moments. Do close men friends “unspeak” their understanding? My close women friends “speak” their understanding at length.

JUDY: thank you for reminding us about the comparison to St. Theresa. I had forgotten it. Yes, it does seem to hint at an unhappy ending. But there is more than one way of being happy. Perhaps D. isn’t as cut out for a saint as she/we thought.

...that I'll be glad to see the end of this book...Celia and her ideas of what men know and what women don't know! Grrrrrrrrrr

(Chapter LXXIII): "Lydgate thought of himself as the sufferer, and of others as the agents who had injured his lot."

When did Lydgate begin to see himself as victim?

Does anyone remember if he's been this way earlier in the book? If not, I'll have to research back a little.

I always saw him as a man who took responsibility for his actions. I know he gave Rosamond her own way most of the time. But I just thought that was his trade-off so he could have a free rein on his time at the hospital and for his own medical interests. Just wondering...

Alliemae

Joan

I hope that while you are extolling the participants in the Book Discussions you will remember that there are some like me who do not take an active part but never the less enjoy reading and learning from everyone else. I do thank you all.

Re: Margaret's "that there are some like me who do not take an active part but never the less enjoy reading and learning from everyone else. I do thank you all."

Thanks for that Margaret...I do that a lot, here and elsewhere and I've learned a LOT as well.

Peace, Alliemae

I simply must get this off my chest:

Dorothea said to Lydgate in Chapter LXXVI, “I would take any pains to clear you. I have very little to do. There is nothing better that I can do in the world.”

OH, PLLEEAASSEE! This is truly one of the most pitiful statements I have heard or read in my entire life! I can’t help but hear Dorothea saying, “I have nothing better to do.” Can Lydgate really be enthusiastic about such help?!?

Oh, good grief!

Day 3 at the White House Conference on Aging - and right this minute am showing you off to some International Observers who are greatly interested in our web site.

Margaret, it is heartwarming to know that you are with us, that you derive pleasure from these discussions in your own way. You are truly a reader and a listener! I will pass word of this level of participation on to others at the conference. Thank you so much for making your presence felt this morning!

Judy, the line from the prologue aptly describes Dorothea as she alternates "between a vague ideal and the common yearning of womanhood," doesn't it? I'm wondering which side she will choose before the story ends. Is it possible that she can achieve BOTH? Somehow I doubt it. Does the growing-up process leave the "vague ideals" behind?

Dorothea doesn't seem to have any female friends, does she? Celia seems to be the only one who knows her well enough to talk to her. I can't see Dorothea intrusive or officious in any group, Babi. But OTHER women seem to feel no qualms about putting in their two cents. Men are more reserved, don't open up because of what, pride? They don't want to admit to another man that they are having trouble of any kind. This describes Lydgate and his pride. I think Dorothea could be useful in breaking down that barrier. She invites confidence. She has had her moments with Lydgate when her husband was dying.

Alliemae, Lydgate has plans, good intentions, but does he really take responsibility for his actions when he makes decisions to deviate from those plans? No one made him buy the furniture or jewelry for Rosamond before they were married. There are times when he feels sorry for himself, I think, when he could have chosen other paths.

I thought Farebrother's view on the reliability of judging a man on his character was telling:

"character is not cut in marble -- it is not something solid and unalterable. It is something living and changing, and may become diseased as our bodies do."

Is this an indication that Eliot sees character as capable of changing? If so, what can we expect before the curtain comes down?

MARGARET: THANK YOU! And thank you for letting us know you are there. Isn’t it great that so many of us can learn together, contributing just what we feel comfortable with. That’s what makes Seniornet such a comfortable, friendly place. I hope you have a comfortable chair and a crumpet.

ALLIEMAE: ggggrrrrrrrrrrrr is right! Celia probably didn’t even know why Dorothea laughed at her, when she said (p. 737 Penguin)

“ ‘And, of course, men know best about everything, except what women know better.’.

Dorothea laughed and forgot her tears.

‘Well, I mean about babies and things,’ explained Celia. ‘I should not give up to James when I knew he was wrong, as you used to do with Mr. Casaubon.’”

In spite of it’s complete lack of logic, that’s a pretty accurate description of the way sex roles were viewed in Victorian England. Men and women were seen to have separate spheres. Men were in charge of the world outside the home, and of course ruled at home. Women were in charge of the home. And, in spite of the fact that they were subservient to men, women were also in charge of morals, keeping men good and pure. (Of course, this referred to sex, but it extended to other morals as well. How women were supposed to achieve this while being subservient to their husbands, and knowing nothing about the outside world I don't know, but they're not supposed to "give up to James" when he's wrong).

Celia is very clever, and sometimes insightful in the limited subjects that interest her (social relations), but she is not intelligent. Lydgate irritates me more. He is supposed to be so intelligent in his field, and yet is so stupid about social relations (perhaps the opposite of Celia). I have known many people just like him (mostly men, but also women). Come to think of it, I’ve known many Celias too.

Another good point, ALLIEMAE (I’m glad you’re back to posting).. When did Lydgate begin to see himself as a victim: not in charge of his life? Is this going to be a turning point in his life? Was he ever in charge of his life? Is it just marrying Rosamund that made him lose control, or was it inevitable?

JOANP: you were posting while I was writing. WELCOME TO ALL AND ANY ONLOOKERS. Join in, bystand, just enjoy us.

Oh, dear, Eliot is exposing more of Rosamond's frailties, I see. "..Rosamond being one of those women who live much in the idea that each man they meet would have preferred them if the preference had not been hopeless."

And little Rosamond has now set her determination on forcing Lydgate to move to London, where everything would be much more agreeable. She is going to make Lydgate's duty clear to him. ...Rosamond had the gravest little airs possible about other people's duties."

Rosamond puts me in mind of a song Danny Kaye used to sing. Remember the one about 'Jennie', who would "make up her mind" to something, invariably ending in total disaster? I think Rosamond is definitely a 'Jennie' type.

Babi

It appears that Sir James and Dorothea's relationship has changed as I read this section. We find her brother-in-law still carefully watching out for her as he has been since she rejected him as her suitor and he married her sister. However, D.'s reaction to Sir James is different.

"Sir James Chettam was no longer the diffident and acquiescent suitor: he was the anxious brother-in-law, with a devout admiration for his sister, but with a constant alarm lest she should fall under some new illusion almost as bad as marrying Casaubon. He smiled much less; when he said "Exactly " it was more often an introduction to a dissentient opinion than in those submissive bachelor days; and Dorothea found to her surprise that she had to resolve not to be afraid of him -- all the more because he was really her best friend.

Sir James is now her best friend. When did that happen? When they worked closely together on his property? And afraid of him?? What is that all about?

Celia says to D.: "I think it is a mercy now after all that you have got James to think for you. He lets you have your plans, only he hinders you from being taken in. And that is the good of having a brother instead of a husband. A husband would not let you have your plans."

Is Eliot having Celia referring simply to Casaubon here, or is Celia also referring to Sir James, her own husband? Is Eliot suggesting that Sir James does not allow Celia to "have her plans"?

In the following sentence, I felt that I had missed something, skipped a section. D. says to Sir James: "Now that I am not to have the land, James, I might do as Mr. Bulstrode proposed, and take his place in providing for the Hospital..."

What happened with the land? Why did D. not get it? Wasn't this the land where she was going to establish her ideal community?

Marni

Question # 3 : The supreme irony between the unspoken response of Harriet and Rosamund to the scandal...

Neither husband gave his wife the news in a timely or straightforward manner. Lydgate thougtht ,"How would Rosamund take it all. Here was another weight of chain to drag and Lydgate was in no mood for bearing her dumb mastery."

Bulstrode sat and worried. "He felt himself perishing slowly in unpitied misery. Perhaps he should never see his wife's face with affection in it again".

Harriet thought" I will mourn and not reproach." When she saw him:" a movement of new compassion and old tenderness went through her like a great wave"......

Rosamund felt"the troubles of her married life had deepened and the absence of other releif encouraged her regretful rumination over that thin romance which she had once fed upon ." And when she actually found out :" The shock to her was terrible. It seemed to her that no lot could be so cruelly hard as hers."

The difference between the two is extreme. One loves her husband no matter what he has done. The other loves her husband only for what he can do for her and for her station in life. The irony lies in the fact that the loved one has done wrong(but chosen the right wife). The other has done no wrong( but has chosen the wrong wife.)

Judy

Judy, that's a beautiful summary of the two situations. Harriet loves her guilty husband, and Rosamond is falling out of love (or has fallen out of love) with an innocent husband who has inconvenienced her while doing his duty! My remark here is probably superflous, but I couldn't restrain myself!

Eliot gives us wonderful contrasts throughout this book. She contrasts two wives in chapters 74-5 when Harriet Bulstrode and Rosamond find out about their Bulstrode' tainted reputations.

Harriet is plenty PO'd about her husband: "A new searching light had fallen on her husband's character, and she could not judge him leniently: the twenty years in which she had believed in him and venerated him by virtue of his concealments came back with particulars that made them seem an odious deceit. He had married her with that bad past life hidden behind him, and she had no faith left to protest his innocence of the worst that was imputed to him."

However, we see the good woman Harriet is. She sticks by her man: She "....had a loyal spirit within her. The man whose prosperity she had shared through nearly half a life, and who had unvaryingly cherished her -- now that punishment had befallen him it was not possible to her in any sense to forsake him....she had begun a new life in which she embraced humiliation." After Harriet has a private cry and composes herself, she faces her husband and they cry together.

Rosamond, on the other hand, has "wondered what she had that was worth living for." She does not love her husband and dreams that Will Ladislaw has "a passion for her." When she hears of her husband's troubles from her parents, "The shock to Rosamond was terrible. It seemed to her that no lot could be so cruelly hard as hers to have married a man who had become the centre of infamous suspicions....Rosamond went home with a sense of justified repugnance towards her husband....It came into her mind once that she would ask her father to let her go home again..." Rosamond did not speak of it to her husband. "Even this trouble, like the rest, she seemed to regard as if it were hers alone." Silence remained between them.

Marni

Uh, oh, Judy, I posted as you did and we're both discussing the same situation!

Oh, I came across the reason Dorothea will not get the land. It seems that Sir James and my uncle have convinced her that the risk would be too great.

Marni, good question...depending of course on whether Celia even has any plans or would even think to! A Rosamond she is not...

Alliemae

...as is their difference in age, and marital experience.

"The irony lies in the fact that the loved one has done wrong(but chosen the right wife). The other has done no wrong( but has chosen the wrong wife.)"

Yes, Judy...'there's the rub'!!

Alliemae

BABI: I love Danny Kaye, but I missed that song. It does sound like Rosamund. Do you suppose that it will EVER occur to her that these problems are Lydgate's, as well as hers, and not something he has done to make her miserable?

MARNI: “Dorothea found to her surprise that she had to resolve not to be afraid of him -- all the more because he was really her best friend. “

Yes, when did all this happen? When Chattem is not “in love” it seems he can be formidable. But her best friend?

Dorothea really doesn’t have a close friend. Celia loves her, but can never share her feelings and ideas. There seems to be no one who can (except Will perhaps). But D. doesn’t seem lonely. She has probably been alone in her ideas and feelings all her life, and is used to it (again, I can’t resist thinking of Eliot).

“A husband would not let you have your plans”. Is Celia chafing a bit under her belief that “men know best”? James was prepared to let Dorothea have her plans when he thought he was in love with her, and even carried them out afterwords. But now, he is acting as a check on her plans.When he thought he would marry her, I seem to remember he thought she would be a check on him.

I can’t see Celia having the kind of plans that D. has, but I can see her wanting to make family arrangements that James would not approve (for example keeping little Arthur with her instead of sending him to boarding school as is the custom in the British upper class).

JUDY: I join the praise. What an excellent summary. Eliot is a master at setting us these contrasts. isn’t she. I keep feeling I’ve missed a whole bunch that slid by me.

What do you all think of the fact that all of D's circle, including Farebrother, urge her not to stand by Lydgate so quickly? Are you surprised that she agreed?

At the risk of sounding like a grouch about this section of reading, I have to say that I found myself frustrated with the characters’ attitudes in this section. Moreover, I had none of the big plot questions answered --- only more questions raised. Alright, enough complaining…

Allimae, even though I expressed frustration with the characters’ attitudes in this section, I am not bothered by Celia’s opinions on men versus women. That is odd. Maybe because Celia appears so little in the book, I can handle her in small doses.

Allimae, I think Lydgate has always felt misunderstood, but stood firmly for what he believed in. He was only the “victim” of himself and his actions before though. Now he is a victim of Bulstrode’s actions.

Perfect response to “The supreme irony between the unspoken response of Harriet and Rosamund to the scandal,” Judy.

I don’t blame Farebrother for urging Dorothea not to be so quick to judge Lydgate. From what we as readers can tell, it seems as though no one knows Lydgate very well. I still think that Dorothea must know something that we readers don’t, but wouldn’t she have mentioned it to Farebrother? By the end of this section of reading, I thought Dorothea had become involved to the point of meddling.

I noted this line about Dorothea, which seems to be a perfect contrast between her attitude toward life and Rosamonds. "[Dorothea] would have thought it very sinful in her to keep up an inward wail because she was not completely happy."

D. is sensible enough to know she cannot expect to be completely happy in life. R., on the other hand, seems to think she is very much wronged if she is not completely happy.

Lydgate finds he is able to speak, tho' somewhat obliquely, to Dorothea of the problems in his marriage. He says to her:"--you know what sort of bond marriage is. You will understand everything." And from his later words, it seems to me that his weakness in allowing his wife to 'master' him, is explained and speaks well of him.

"I can't see her miserable. She married me without knowing what she was going into, and it might have been better for her if she had not married me." Again and again, his understandable anger and frustration have been overcome by a pity for this shallow, stubborn, pretty little woman.

Babi

LAURA: what is it about the attitudes of the characters that is frustrating you? Is it Dorothea’s “meddling”?

BABI: “"[Dorothea] would have thought it very sinful in her to keep up an inward wail because she was not completely happy."

“R., on the other hand, seems to think she is very much wronged if she is not completely happy. “ Again, an excellent contrast.

And on Lydgate:

“it seems to me that his weakness in allowing his wife to 'master' him, is explained and speaks well of him.

"I can't see her miserable. She married me without knowing what she was going into, and it might have been better for her if she had not married me." L. also feels he should be able to make Rosamund happy, and feels guilty that he can’t.

David Bader, who wrote my tag, has a new book out in which he summarizes 100 books in haiku. (Haiku U : From Aristotle to Zola, 100 Great Books in 17 Syllables -- by David M. Bader)

Here is Middlemarch (not one of his better ones):

Stifling social roles, 
Small-town gossip -beware the 
Eyes of Middlemarch.

JoanK: Very cute Haiku. Pretty hard to summarize 800 pages in 17 syllables.Where can I read others by Bader ?

Back to the eyes of MM and question 5: What faults in Dorotheas character are revealed?

Dorothea! Faults???. Now,now do Saints have faults? Or perhaps D is not a Saint but trys to act like one? When her poise and pose are disturbed by Will, the one person for whom she shows deep feelings, she acts like any woman scorned and not like a Saint at all.

Is this a fault? No, indeed. But judging Will in a superficial manner is a fault. And here lies the rub and the reason GE refers to her as Quixotic. Reality, and especially complex reality escapes her-perhaps because of her age(only 22) or perhaps she can go so far and no farther in analyzing situations.

Still I wish her well and hope the star crossed lovers will eventually re- unite.

Judy

"I can handle her in small doses."

So well put!

Alliemae

I love Haiku. Thanks for the book info. I can't compare the Mm one, not having a baseline of his works, but I think it's accurate!! Also, thanks! I'm glad I'm able to post again too...a little 'plus' for Senior Memory!!

Everyone is posting so interestingly I can't thank each personally or it will be a long post...but thanks all for helping me understand the characters on such a deeper and much more interesting level.

Alliemae

Wait just a 'mo'...Joan, wouldn't a haiku book about books be a great book discussion?????

Good morning!

Oh Alliemae, if only I had mastered haiku - this post would be much shorter! I PROMISE, after this to try haiku, but after a few days away from my computer, I feel the need to catch up with you all.

Just back from the final session of the White House Conference on Aging ( a few photos from SN's HOME PAGE) - an exhilarating experience. The debate and voting on policies calling for reform and change in matters affecting Seniors reminded me a lot of the climate in Middlemarch and how it was affected by the proposed Reform Acts. While interest seems focused on the gossip considering her prominent citizens, the changes promised in the proposed Reform Acts is the driving force in Middlemarch.

CHANGE seems to be Eliot's central theme, doesn't it? What is she saying about "change" through these characters? Are they capable of change or does past experience determine who they are and how they will respond in a given situation?

JoanK just asked whether we were surprised that Dorothea agreed with those of her circle who urged her not to stand by Lydgate so quickly. I'm not sure she agreed with them, but I don't fault the "advisors" either.

Sir James is concerned that "she is falling under some new illusion that she can manage a man's life." He had seen where that led with her unfortunate marriage to Casaubon.

Farebrother is concerned that she counts too heavily on her own perception of Lydgate's character without consideration of the fact that a man's character is not etched in stone, he may have lapses, he may be guilty of having accepted a bribe to ease financial pressures.

Dorothea seems to think she knows people better than everyone else, that people are better than others perceive them to be. She has this high idea that she can make people see what she sees. Can she? Can anyone? Now she has the freedom and the wherewithal to change the world. But does she have enough? Does anyone? Will she have to change? Amazing that we are now in the final pages and we are still not certain where Eliot is taking Dorothea. Will she be the Theresa of the Prologue or will she CHANGE?

I have appreciated the comments on Harriet Bulstrode. It's fascinating to me that Eliot has taken a minor character and used her to present important views on change. You can feel her shifting views - from her realization that she shares in her husband's blame, her determination that she will deal with it - "mourn and not reproach" - and then the tenderness and compassion that "went through her life a great wave." Thanks for bringing those words to our attention, Marni. To read them was to experience again the power of Eliot's writing and ability - to me, the most powerful scene of the book. The dramatic removal of all adornment and the change of dress spoke volumes without words. The two of them, weeping quietly, together, unable to ask the questions, knowing the answers...no words exchanged.

Is the disillusioned Harriet's loyalty enough to change Bulstrode?

JUDY: “[Dorothea] acts like any woman scorned and not like a Saint at all.

Is this a fault? No, indeed. But judging Will in a superficial manner is a fault. And here lies the rub and the reason GE refers to her as Quixotic. Reality, and especially complex reality escapes her-perhaps because of her age(only 22) or perhaps she can go so far and no farther in analyzing situations”

A good point. But I confess, I would have been Quixotic, too. At least at first. We don’t know in detail the conventions of the time, so we don’t know how far from accepted behavior the scene she saw was. Today, of course, it would not be unusual for a man to act that way toward a woman friend in distress.

It just occurred to me: this scene must have looked exactly like the scene when Rosamund cried and Lydgate got carried away and proposed to her. Oh, clever Eliot!!

ALLIEMAE: “Wait just a 'mo'...Joan, wouldn't a haiku book about books be a great book discussion????? “ I laughed and laughed. Yes, it would be great if we could find participants who had read all hundred books and could comment on the haiku. Let’s see: Deems and ...JoanP and ... Deems and ... JoanP and ..? I got tired of Aristotle and found Zola a pain myself.

JOANP: welcome back. You did your usual wonderful job there.

Don’t worry about haiku. You either love them or you don’t (I do). If you haven’t read them yet, you probably don’t. Bader isn’t the place to start. If you want to, I can’t recommend too highly Robert Hass “The Essential Haiku”. Hass, a former poet laureate, has either translated the poems himself or carefully chosen the best translation. He gives a short and interesting history of Haiku and notes on the poems, separate from the poems themselves, which are presented as they should be, on a bank page. (Aren’t you sorry you asked?)

But Bader is pure fun. My tag comes from “Zen Judaism – for You a Little Enlightenment”. His books are available through Amazon.

So good to have you back!!

JoanK...re: "Yes, it would be great if we could find participants who had read all hundred books and could comment on the haiku..."

Oh my...ha ha ha...didn't think about that!! I'm probably the worst read person here (in quantity, anyway)!! oh well...I'll look at your reco's myself!! Oh, bless your heart!!

Alliemae

I think Dorothea has become more herself since her widowhood and she likes herself and trusts her own judgment over that of the men she encounters. She lives life on her own terms. This is a big change as two themes she has struggled with in this novel is society's rules re gender and womens limitations. Now she does not care what people think of her unconventional ways. She trusts her own abilities to manage her own affairs. Sure she did have an intense reaction seeing Will and Rosemonde together. If she truly thought of him as just a friend she would not feel this shock-of jealousy. She feels capable though and goes out to live her own life and I think she is a good deal changed now from the little maiden that posed as a Saint and she is determined that she needs not marry again and can live her own life. Will is another story and I don't know yet how he comes out of this without some changes.

We see change going on all around us in our own lives and are usually unaware for awhile that things are that changed or that we have changed with the passing of time whether we wish it or not. Some is for the good but certainly not all. And characters like Rosemonde seem to be stuck in their own childhood fantasies and can not grow up and change as life passes. It is natural to change and grow and Eliot shows that in her writing. Faith

On Q. 4, from what Lydgate told Dorothea, it appears that Lydgate cannot commit to continuing at the hospital because it is likely that he will have to leave Middlemarch for his wife's sake. If Rosamond continues to feel that she cannot bear living where she has become an object of pity, he will take her away. I hope Rosamond will come around, as I fear they will find life even more limited if Lydgate must start over again elsewhere.

Babi

Faith: "Now she does not care what people think of her unconventional ways."

I find it really interesting that Dorothea starting feeling more strongly this way when she decided she never wanted to marry again.

Babi: "I hope Rosamond will come around, as I fear they will find life even more limited if Lydgate must start over again elsewhere."

Oh, I agree...I agree. I was also touched by Lydgate because while disliking very strongly some of the things his wife has done and thought, he still doesn't want her to be unhappy.

"If Rosamond continues to feel that she cannot bear living where she has become an object of pity, he will take her away."

For a man who seemed to show some shallowness during courting and the earlier part of their marriage, Lydgate seems really concerned for his wife and her comfort.

Alliemae

Alliemae - Your remarks re Lydgates concern for his wife sparked the following thoughts in me.

Suurprisingly, Lydgate is like many men. They rail when they feel manipulated but melt when the Lady cries, seems weak and needs their help. Lydgate bears the burden of his marriage and plans to live with his mistake forever. He is not a quitter nor is he superficial. In this he and Dorothea are exactly alike. They never shirk responsibility: marital or financial. Thus they are enobled in their own eyes, if not in the eyes of others.

Judy

Proud Lydgeate is also compassionate Lydgate. He pities Rosamond for having married him and he pities Bulstrode when the latter is publicly accused of what he still thought were hidden sins. To have his secrets revealed by those to whom he has felt morally superior shocks Bulstrode and sickens him to the point that he is unable to navigate himself out of the meeting room until Lydgate comes to his assistance. Lyudgate knows that he will appear to be united in guilt with Bulstrode in the matter of Raffles' death, but he goes to the stricken man anyway to assist him and drive him home.
I think Lydgate’s private ruminations show him to be almost too hard on himself. He thinks he might have reacted differently to Bulstrode when Raffles died if he hadn’t taken the money, but isn’t that “second guessing” himself? I don’t think he was that shocked at Raffles’ death, considering the shape the man was in, but then he had thought he could survive the delirium tremens episode. In all, I think he acted more out of compassion and a sense of professional responsibility than out of self-protection. I feel as if I’m there with him, experiencing his self-doubt!
Farebrother does wonder about the money L. received from Bulstrode after the truth comes out. If this good man and good friend can consider Lydgate capable of taking a bribe, then Dorothea certainly takes on a daunting task when she says she will convince everyone of his innocence.

Judy, re: "They rail when they feel manipulated but melt when the Lady cries, seems weak and needs their help..."

And we women? What do we do? We rail when we feel ignored or even 'bullied' (real or imagined) but melt when our man is down-hearted and needs (and will accept) our nurturing...People, eh! Go figure...

Jo, re: "Proud Lydgate is also compassionate Lydgate..." Spot on!!

I think Lydgate and Farebrother are an interesting contrast study. 'Nature' vs. 'Nurture'??? Lydgate brought up seemingly by that rather cold relative of his and Farebrother living his life out with the three women.

I agree that Lydgate is being excessively hard on himself but I attribute that in part to the old exponential theory about problems in a person's life. Troubles don't add up, they multiply exponentially, especially when they accumulate within a short period of time as in the case of Lydgate's world suddenly tumbling down around him all at once after riding high. And then comes that proverbial 'straw'...

And in this book about the turmoils engulfing the finding of one's life partner and Farebrother's unwillingness to go for the woman he wants out of consideration for Fred, I have sometimes wondered if Farebrother was not a little envious of Lydgate who sees what he wants and takes it.

Alliemae

Oh good point, Jo! "Proud Lydgate is also compassionate Lydgate." "Spot on," as Alliemae puts it. Eliot's characters are not one-sided, are they? Not representatives of Greed, Selfishness...Pride, Anger, Gluttony, Envy, Sloth... "People are always better than neighbors think they are," says Dorothea." Not always as good as people think they are either. Bulstrode an example. Her characters are PEOPLE like us. Not superficial as Judy points out. What you see is not what you get.

Now, if this premise is true of some of Eliot's characters, will it hold true for ALL of them? Farebrother is self-sacrificing, but has needs - wants Mary, but wants her happiness even more. Is he also envious, as Alliemae suggests? What do you see in store for this careful man who seems to annoy Dorothea in the way he makes his decisions - weighing all the consequences before acting?

Is there another side to Rosamond, do you think? Will we see it before we come to the end, or will she remain "stuck in her childhood fantasies." Fai, can she change? Babi, I hope she "comes around" too - it seems that this is the only thing that can save Lydgate now. Does Eliot believe everyone can change, or are some really "stuck?"

And what about Dorothea? Fai, you see her as having changed a good deal, but will we continue to witness the do-gooder, the self-sacrificing saintly side of Dorothea, or will we finally see a woman, with needs, not necessarily a "lusty" woman, but, you know what I mean...

Judy, your comment resonates - "They (Lydgate and Dorothea) never shirk from responsibility - thus they are ennobled in their own eyes, if not in the eyes of others." I've got to think about this. I see what you mean with Lydgate, but does Dorothea see herself as noble?

JoanP, I'm looking at all your questions and I realize I don't remember any of the answers!!

To paraphrase, 'I thank whatever gods there be for my unconquerable SENIOR MOMENTS!!!!!'

A very happy Alliemae

(I'm off to reread the rest of this segment. Yes, when I went to the library to pick up When Jesus Came to Harvard I also took out (again) Middlemarch, and Silas Marner to read in between!!)

ALLIEMAE: Good idea! I'll bet reading it a second time, we would see all kinds of things we missed the first. This book is so rich, like a big buffet.

JUDY: "They (Lydgate and Dorothea) never shirk from responsibility - thus they are ennobled in their own eyes, if not in the eyes of others." They are certainly ennobled in Eliot's eyes -- we'll see more of this in the next section.

Alliemae: I got ahold of another Eliot novel, too. I found The Mill on the Floss at The Christmas Tree Shop for $2.99 and nabbed it. I'm reading it now. So far, to me, it's not nearly as good as Middlemarch although her characters are wonderful - so real and vivid. Supposedly, the girl Maggie is supposed to be very much like Eliot when she was young. I'm hoping it picks up soon.

MARNI: I read the Mill on the Floss some years ago. You're right, it's not nearly as good. But it has it's moments.

Thanks, Marni! I'll have to try that one after Silas. I did read Silas Marner in high school but that was a few years ago!! (chuckle) Now that I've found George Eliot (Middlemarch was my first) I want to read some of her other works to compare. You got that for a great price, by the way!! Neat...

JoanK..."I'll bet reading it a second time, we would see all kinds of things we missed the first." This is so true! And especially the last sections for our discussion here. When I finished the book I guess I was in a rush to find out what happened...so now I can go back and not only be reminded about what did happen but also how and why.

Alliemae

Ah, Silas Marner. In7th Grade we were told by our hated Mrs. Swathmore "Now children , you are going to read SERIOUS literature. There will be a test at the end of each chapter". And there was. Oh, how we despised both Mrs Swathmore and Silas Marner.She was one tough old bird that teacher. But after her(we had her for Literature and Poetry for two years) any other teacher was a breeze .And in High School I was way ahead of the other students who had not suffered through Mrs Swathmore.

I look back in awe at what that teacher taught us. How strange life is. Now I volunteer on my own to read George Eliot. Who would have guessed?

Judy

Judy, Mrs. Swathmore's hard work shows. Are you ready for the Middlemarch test?

Alliemae, I had Silas Marner in my hands at Barnes & Noble when Christmas shopping yesterday...slim, compared to Middlemarch! I just might try it. The title sounds so familiar. I'm thinking I MUST have read it in the distant past.

I've been puzzling over something in Middlemarch I might also have missed - or more likely forgotten. Maybe you can help? It's this business over Will's grandfather - remember that Will's grandmother lost her inheritance for running off and marrying him. Is that right? These were Will's mother's parents? The Dunkirks? I'm not sure where the "Jewish pawnbroker" reference might come from? Do you remember? I did a search and found another reference other than the one appearing in this week's reading - in chapter 77.
Chapter 71:

So our mercurial Ladislaw has a queer genealogy! A high-spirited young lady and a musical Polish patriot made a likely enough stock for him to spring from, but I should never have suspected a grafting of the Jew pawnbroker. However, there's no knowing what a mixture will turn out beforehand. Some sorts of dirt serve to clarify."

"It's just what I should have expected," said Mr Hawley, mounting his horse. "Any cursed alien blood, Jew, Corsican, or Gypsy."

Chapter 77:

"Young Ladislaw the grandson of a thieving Jew pawnbroker" was a phrase which had entered emphatically into the dialogues about the Bulstrode business, at Lowick, Tipton and Freshitt, and was a worse kind of placard on poor Will's back than the "Italian with white mice". Upright Sir James Chettam was convinced that his own satisfaction was righteous when he thought.

Now is this all just Middlemarch gossip? Is the disgrace that Will's grandfather was thieving? Or a pawnbroker? Or Jewish? Have we read that Dunkirk was Jewish? "Jew, Corsican or Gypsy" could refer to anyone not of English blood, therefore alien, I suppose.. Will's father was Polish, but doesn't this "placard" refer to Will's grandfather? I'm afraid I'm missing an important piece to the puzzle...either that, or the good people of Middlemarch have made bits of gossip into fact.

Has Dorothea heard anything about the story Raffles had spread at this point? She doesn't seem to have been thinking at all of Will until she happens on him in Rosamond's parlor. Wouldn't her sense of justice have caused her quite a reaction if she had known of Bulstrode's actions against him in the past? What does she know then?

JoanP, even on second reading I don't recall anyone unlading these details on Dorothea. It seems to me that they say all these things about Will's background whenever she isn't around to hear, but they are discussing them in support of their preformed ideas about what she should do or feel. Interesting. Could it be they have already intuited her reaction to that informatioon ... or misinformation? She would be even more inclined toward Will if someone said these things to her, wouldn't she? That's how I see her, and that's why I like her, among other reasons. I think I'm remembering some thought of hers about the "placard" putting her more firmly in his camp, but don't know which chapter. Will check.

It's in the crucial chapter 77, where she surprises (!) Will and Rosamond. Before she goes to the Lydgate house to comfort Rosamond, she is thinking about what everyone is saying about Will, and I'm wrong, because one of her thoughts contains a reference to " 'Young Ladislaw the grandson of a thieving Jew pawnbroker'... a phrase which had entered emphatically into the dialogues about the Bulstrode business....'" and "a worse kind of placard on poor Will's back..etc." It has had the effect I would expect: their remarks, intended to continue the damage to Will's reputation,"...shrouded her resistant emotion into a more thorough glow" and "gave something more of enthusiasm to her clinging thought."

ALLIEMAE: “...so now I can go back and not only be reminded about what did happen but also how and why. “

Great. I’m like you – I get caught up in the plot, and forget to look at what Eliot, the master puppeteer, is doing.

I must have read Silas Marner in High School (everyone did), but I have no memory of it. A friend told me her whole High School class hated it. I don’t think Eliot is an author for teen agers.

JUDY: I see you agree with me.

JOANP: “‘but I should never have suspected a grafting of the Jew pawnbroker. However, there's no knowing what a mixture will turn out beforehand. Some sorts of dirt serve to clarify."

"It's just what I should have expected," said Mr Hawley, mounting his horse. "Any cursed alien blood, Jew, Corsican, or Gypsy."’

I’d been wondering whether to bring up the “Jewish pawnbroker” or not. No, there is no evidence that Will’s grandfather is Jewish. Even if there were, the people who say this wouldn’t know it. No, here, as with the “Italian with the monkey” earlier, Eliot is using this to show the Middlemarchers as both prejudiced against all foreigners and anti-semitic.

I saw earlier that many didn’t understand the reference to Will as like an Italian with a monkey, since he is neither Italian nor has a monkey. I think you have to have experienced this mindless ethnic and racial prejudice to recognize it. It is so illogical to be almost unbelievable, but over the centuries has lead to misery , even death, for millions.

This group of Middlemarchers are completely “provincial”. They assume that anyone who is not English for a zillion generations is inferior. This is the attitude that many of them took to ruling the British Empire. Of course, this is not all Englishmen, only some, but Eliot is lampooning it mercilessly.

In addition, they are anti-semitic. As soon as it’s known that Will’s grandfather was disreputable, one of them assumes that he was Jewish. Being Jewish is the worse possible thing they can think of, so the first speaker assigns this foreigner to it. (and once uttered, it spreads around Middlemarch).

Eliot shows us that the mindless hatred does not only extend to Jews with the second speaker: “ "Any cursed alien blood, Jew, Corsican, or Gypsy."’ If you are not English, you are a cursed alien!!

How this fits with those who go to Italy for culture, I don’t know. Presumably they are not the same people. The two ideas can live comfortably side by side, as long as everyone is English and no one has to act on their belief.

Whether Eliot is being accurate and fair to the MM’s , I don’t know. I hope not, but I fear so. She grew up around them. Since I identify with her, I see her growing up around this mindless hatred, knowing instinctively it was wrong without knowing what to do about it, as I did.

JUDY, I completely understand about studying under a tough teacher. By the time I was in the last two years of high school, I had learned to seek out a teacher that the students complained of as being too hard. I knew they were the probably the best teachers in the school. I probably owe to a particular English teacher the fact that I don't really sound 'Texan' unless I'm very tired. Then I slip into a drawl.

I had almost forgotten, but Will apparently could have been entitled to an inheritance from two sources. Remember Casaubon had inherited because 'Aunt Julia' had been cut off from the family. Otherwise Will could have inherited. Then Bulstrode managed to keep from him an inheritance through his mother. But was it a grandfather, or Bulstrode himself who built up his fortune as a pawnbroker of suspect articles?

For all those who posted that the labels attached to Will by Middlemarch gossip could be wholly groundless, I agree. One person has only to speak carelessly, and by the third repetition it has become fact!

Babi

JoanK and all...actually I got it in a split second! I lived for a summer in Chelsea, Mass and my landlady was a Jewish woman from Revere. While she was showing me the apartment she asked rather gruffly, "You're not Italian, are you?" By the tone of her voice I knew that although I was half Italian, for this summer I'd better 'not be'...then she said, "I don't rent to no blacks, puerto ricans or italians!"

I didn't bring it up here at the time because we had just been through one ethnic/racist thing but I was rather shocked when that happened. I however, don't get mad...I get even. I was only going to be there for the summer so I taught my four kids how to test spagetti for doneness...on her kitchen walls. No, I'm not sorry one bit that I did it! (Of course I was only 30 years old at the time...I've mellowed since then.)

But I, like you, was shocked when GE did it again. I must have thought she had read our discussion because all I could think was, "Doesn't she EVER learn!?!"

I guess she meant the people in Mm at the time but I still found it surprising...all three times. I keep getting confused between GE, the characters she is creating, and then narrating about; that's my problem.

Alliemae

Oh Judy...I loved your account about your Mrs. Swathmore! It brought me right back to school again.

I had a teacher like that once. Her name was Mrs. Bass...and my dad, always the fisherman, used to refer to her (at home) as 'Large Mouth Bass'!!

But you're so right, Judy and BaBi...oh didn't we learn from them!!

Alliemae

ALLIEMAE: I'm glad you posted what you did. Looking at my post again, I'm afraid it might have sounded as if I thought that kind of prejudice was a property of the English. That's the last thing I meant. There are some people in every society who think that way -- even people who have experienced that kind of prejudice against themselves, and should know better. I'm glad you decorated your landlady's walls.

Even a small minority of such people can cause a lot of problems, especially when they get in a position of power over the "foreigners" (as we were shocked to learn at Abu Grave). So for the English, who were often in such a position of power in their Empire, this could cause real problems. I am glad Eliot tackled the issue.

I read Eliot as including these remarks in a critical way, to show the biased thinking of some MMers. I know that she wrote another book, Daniel Daronda (which I haven't read, but now mean to) where the protagonist is Jewish. It was a series on PBS. Has anyone read or seen it?

I wasn't as smart as you all. I had an "easy" teacher, and didn't learn much. But since I read constantly anyway, I hope it didn't hurt me.

I saw 'Daniel Deronda', JOANK, and enjoyed it very much. It would seem to scotch the idea that Eliot was prejudiced against Jews. They were treated very sympathetically in this book. It ended quite fittingly, with the hero gladly embracing his heritge.

We begin on Ch. 78 tomorrow. The chapter heading is: "Would it were yesterday and I i' the grave, With her sweet faith above for monument." Hmm...sounds like more trouble brewing.

Babi

After all these weeks!!! Will all our questions be answered?

I can’t wait for tomorrow’s discussion!

After being frustrated with the attitudes and actions of Dorothea, Lydgate, and Rosamund during this week’s reading, I am going to be glad to have something new to ponder.

Joan K and others who have mentioned Daniel Deronda. I saw the BBC movie and read the book. GE was NOT prejudiced in the least but she wanted to show the prevailing culture and attitude of the small , closed community of the times. In fact in writing Daniel Deronda , one of her last books, she was fighting prejudice. Zola was another non-Jewish writer of the times who fought against Anti-Semitism. Daniel Deronda is an easy read in comparison to MM. But most books are.

Judy

Laura, et al...DITTO!!!

Alliemae

Thanks for that bit of research, Jo. Dorothea did know that Will was disinherited from the Casaubon side, his grandmother Julia of the miniature, and then looked upon in Middlemarch as low life because his mother married a foreigner. Babi, I'm fairly certain it was Will's Grandfather Dunkirk who was responsible for the "Pawnbrokering" aspect of the business, that Bulstrode was inadvertently brought in when one of the partners passed away. Once he had made things right with his conscience, Bulstrode went into the business with gusto and built it up to new heights.

Dorothea is wise enough to know that Middlemarch gossip is just that, gossip - either that OR she was shielded from the details of the stories Raffles had been spreading. Look at how long it took for Harriet and for Rosamond to find out about their husbands' part in the plot. They had to ferret out the gossip themselves.

So that when Dorothea did finally hear what was being said about Will's ancestry, this just "gave something more of enthusiasm to her clinging thought." Alliemae, perhaps Eliot "did it again" to demonstrate how gossip and rumor drove the town of Middlemarch. Scarey, isn't it? If one protests too much, one looks guilty. If one ignores it, it takes on a life of its own and becomes fact.

So we learn that Dorothea has a "clinging thought" while Will is off in self-imposed exile. That he loves her, that they cannot be together, that they cannot marry. But maybe someday, somehow... Imagine her shock when she came upon Will with Rosamond in the Lydgate parlor! Just what is it that Dorothea really saw there?

Remember the rumors swirling around Will and Rosamond? Dorothea had heard them too - and dismissed them, although they hurt her badly. We are down to the last chapters - before reading them, we have no idea what is going to happen. It certainly feels as if Eliot is trying to prepare us for a life of pious work and deprivation for Dorothea - a Saint Theresa of the Prologue, doesn't it?

Things will begin to move quickly now as the carefully laid plot comes together with lightening speed. The question in the back of my mind...do the changes take place too abruptly? hahaha, can't believe I'm saying this after 700+ pages!!!

I've got to make the cookies right now - the dough has chilled overnight. If I can get them baked, wrapped and to the Post Office by 9 am, what are my chances of getting them to San Diego from VA by Saturday? Falalalalaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa....

Re: Chapter 72

"Full souls are double mirrors, making still

An endless vista of fair things before,

Repeating things behind."

I apologize for my jocular take of this last line but I promise you is was an innocent and automatic response!

All I could think of was those wretched department store dressing room mirrors which, indeed, do 'repeat things behind'...and in the most shocking manner...to the poor, naive and out-of-touch shopper already at her wit's end! (pardon the pun...) Be back later with a serious comment.

Alliemae

OH, Alliemae, great! I've reached the point where I hate all mirrors, and those especially!
JoanP, as a resident "sneak" who knows what's up (well, roughly), I have to say now that your new questions are GREAT!
Also, thanks to everybody who posted about the bigotry and how the words Eliot uses are intended to reflect it and not reality.

ALLIEMAE: hahahahaha. Now I remember why I started to do online clothes shopping. I'd rather not know what's behind me.

There is a good side (no pun intended). A couple of times I've fallen backwards, with no injury, since I'm so well padded.

Well, here we are. Who has finished? What do you think? What about JOANP's lightning (I love your little pictures, Joan).

A great Question deserves a great answer but I have only an emotional response right now. "Who was more pitiable, Rosamond or Will?" I felt like screaming at Will "Idiot!". You are ruining your life by taking up with Rosamund!" I think he heard me since he was so upset.

As for Rosamund I wanted to yell at her:"Grow up already! How many lives do you intend to ruin with your flirting and your swans neck?"I think that she too heard me since she had an emotional, a real emotional response to the interaction. Being caught is not her thing.

OH I forgot . These people are not real and soon they are going away forever. But no matter how I love them I doubt wether I will reread MM. Then again I will not easily forget them.

Judy

I don't know about 'pitiable' but I was so angry with Will.

We have seen how Rosamond operates...how selfish and superficial she can be. But Will...how could he use Rosamond for sheer entertainment purposes knowing she's married. How respectful to Lydgate. Nothing like having a pretty pastime that you don't have to take any responsibility for.

And I can't believe that Dorothea will ever see him with the same eyes again...what a careless, selfish cad...and he LOVES Dorothea??? Puh-lease!! And oh, how easily he transfers his anger at himself to Rosamond. How gallant! I am so disappointed in Will.

Alliemae

I'm not giving up on Will.

Well, finally! Someone managed to get through Rosamond's seemingly ceramic wall of self-approval. Will has shattered her rosy conception that all men must naturally prefer her, and her airy little dreams of Will as a devoted, but hopeless, admirer.

Now don't go jumping to the same conclusion Dorothea did when she saw that little tableau. I am a firm believer in Will, and I am sure there is an honorable explanation.

I loved the conversation between Mr. Garth and Mary, especially as it concerned her love for Fred. She explains, "I don't love him because he is a fine match." Her father naturally asks why she does love him, then. Mary's reply is priceless: "Oh, dear, because I have always loved him. I should never like scolding any else so well; and that is a point to be thought of in a husband."

BAbi

Eliot really knows how to get us involved, doesn't she?

Honestly, I felt sorry for all three, and I do mean the first time I read it! The feeling increases as the story progresses. Rosamond's inability to see beyond what affects her is actually pathetic in this situation. She is genuinely ill afterwards. Her behavior is even uncharacteristic at one point (I have to check what I'm talking about because I'm not sure in what chapter it happens).
After her night of grief, Dorothea arises "liberated from conflict," determined to visit Rosamond and finish what she started out to do: assure her of Lydgate's innocence. The whole thrust of her life seems to be wanting to do good for others, and as Middlemarch hasn't offered her enough opportunity to do that, she isn't going to miss a chance. Remember what she told him, that it's wrong not to intercede to prevent a worong being done to another. St. Dorothea! How she can contemplate going back to Rosamond without wanting to scratch her eyes out is beyond me! It does stretch credulity.

Ladies, you are being much too harsh on Will. He is feeling "If you can't be with the one you love, than (try to) love the one you're with. " A trifle adolescent but isn't that what Eliot is telling us about the male persuasion all throughout this novel?

All I could think was, “The more things change, the more they stay the same.”

Haven’t we witnessed such similar scenes between the three of them several times? Yes, each one is subtly different. But really…Rosamund is still self-centered and Will is still unable to truly act upon his feelings for Dorothea. I guess what is different is that Will tells Rosamund his true feelings.

I didn’t find either of them pitiable. Gosh, I seem so callous toward these characters…oh well.

I think the source of Will’s anger was really himself and he took it out on Rosamund.

Oh yes, Marni...I haven't given up completely on him...just very disappointed!!

But I, on the other hand, will NEVER give up on Lydgate!

JoanK re" "A couple of times I've fallen backwards..." and we don't fracture our hips as easily!! (smile) Oy...tsu tsu!!

Jo re: "How she can contemplate going back to Rosamond without wanting to scratch her eyes out is beyond me!" Oh I can understand it. Shades of Melanie Wilkes in GWTW maybe??? The more I get into GE's characters and even some story lines I have wondered if other, more recent authors, have taken 'a page out of GE's book' when writing their novels.

Alf re: "isn't that what Eliot is telling us about the male persuasion all throughout this novel?" Yes, as we've noticed before: GE is not too crazy about men or blondes!

But, "than (try to) love the one you're with" well, yes, that is also done...providing she/he's not married...

LauraD..."I think the source of Will’s anger was really himself and he took it out on Rosamund." DITTO, DITTO, DITTO!!

Alliemae

Tis the season to be "jocular," Alliemae - no apologies necessary! I hate those mirrors - probably because I know they are not fun-house mirrors, but reflect the reality of the sorry situation. Such an apt epigram for Chapter 72, don't you think? The vista of things ahead will repeat the things behind. Laura, yes that's it - we see the same story repeated with subtle variations - is Eliot lulling us to expect more of the same right to the end - the bitter end? We know Eliot has shown that man is the sum of his past actions and experiences - but does she believe a person capable of escaping what is behind? (hahaha, oh Allimae, I'm not able to forget your department store mirrors!) Can one change what is reflected in the mirror from behind? Is this the question that has us hanging on to the very last chapter?

JO: “it does stretch credulity” that D. would visit Rosamund. What do the rest of you think? Can you imagine even St. Dorothea doing that?

Oooohhhhhhh, ALF: you are a cynic. I have to stand up for men — they aren’t ALL like that. Certainly, we don’t want the “hero” of our romance to be like that. Do you want D. to marry twice to someone she can’t respect?

LAURA: “I think the source of Will’s anger was really himself and he took it out on Rosamund. “ That’s a good point. I think so too.

ALLIEMAE: “The more I get into GE's characters and even some story lines I have wondered if other, more recent authors, have taken 'a page out of GE's book' when writing their novels. “

Good point. I like the comparison to Melanie in Gone With the Wind. I have heard that Mitchell meant Melanie to be the heroine – a true Southern woman – and Scarlet to be the upstart Irish villianess. Of course, Scarlet took over the novel, as villianesses tend to do. (Rosamund is not strong enough to do that).

But D., in spite of the fact that she likes to “give things up” is not a sufferer, as Melanie was. With D. it’s a constant fight to do good.

Judy, was Will taking up with Rosamond, or merely amusing himself as he had done many times before? I never did understand what he was doing hanging out with Rosamond either, Alliemae. And people were talking, remember? Surely Will realized this - but so did Rosamond? Was there more to their relationship than I realized? Wasn't Will taken off guard when he realized that he was to be responsible for her future happiness? I wanted to yell at him when he hesitated before leaving her, after Dorothea came upon them. It was at that moment when he weakened, repented for his anger - I felt she had him for sure - poor tearful, trembling little thing. I saw future song fests in London on the horizon with Lydgate out working to pay off the new piano.

BaBi - so Will's anger was a good thing then? He was so angry that he found himself actually saying what he felt. But did he say anything that Rosamond didn't already know - that he preferred Dorothea? Maybe she thought that Casaubon's will took Dorothea off of Will's preferred list and she could now manipulate him as she did Lydgate with her silent tears and quivering lip?

Andy, I hadn't thought about Will's intentions towards Rosamond in that way - "If you can't be with the one you love, than (try to) love the one you're with" - I thought he came to town hoping to see Dorothea and that he'd spend some time with the Lydgates - BOTH of the Lydgates. I never thought he intended anything much at all with Rosamond except superficial banter - and of course warbling. Did I miss more - was there more to their relationship than that?

The realization that Rosamond had no power whatsoever over Will, even with Dorothea out of the picture - might have been the thing that burst her bubble. Now what does she have to look forward to in London? Jo, you're right - she is "genuinely ill" - no playacting this time. This has been a real blow.

The word "pitiable" was Will's -

" when his eyes fell on Rosamond's blighted face it seemed to him that he was the more pitiable of the two: for pain must enter into its glorified life of memory before it can turn into compassion."

Which of the two stands to lose more, Will or Rosamond? They have both lost heavily in the self-esteem department. Is it a tie, or was Will right - does Rosamond come out ahead?

Babi, What did Dorothea actually see? Or hear? Whatever it was, she is in total despair, spends the night on the cold floor (I thought she was going to catch a death of cold, did you?) - but no, she wakes up to a fresh new day, determined to make the best of things. She feels so good, she throws off her mourning weeds and sets out to assure Rosamond that her husband is innocent and all is well for her marriage.

I agree, Jo - "it stretches credulity." JoanK - you said it - with Dorothea it is a constant fight to do good. She wouldn't be Dorothea if she didn't have a greater cause - something bigger than her own happiness to fight for. So in spite of her own dashed personal hopes, she is ready to go out and save the world. I can understand this, (sort of), but it makes her choice in the next chapter a bit more difficult to comprehend. I guess I wasn't ready for it after the groundwork Eliot has so carefully laid.

And yet---Dorothea has made a big change here. She is finally herself and she is going to put her own happiness ahead of these others for once. She has learned how to make decisions that will make her happy. She isn't trying to be a saint and that releases this great energy Joanp sees in her after her night on the cold floor.

Both Will and Dorothea have learned to let their passion overrule social concerns and pride that has been coming between them. Now Dorothea's is able to accept her own emotions and her own fervent wishes. I do think the storm represents the feelings and emotions she and Will are undergoing when they finally admit their love.

Rosamond actually made some changes too. Enough so that she was able to reassure Dorothea that Will and D belonged together, that Will had told her he loved only Dorothea. I think in the long run Rosamond will be somewhat changed too because of the kindness of Dorothea and the constancy of Lydgate. I never once felt that Lydgate would not continue to love and support Rosamond no matter how stiff necked she could be. Faith

Will's former friendship with the Lydgates included music and singing with Rosamond, which they both enjoyed. Lydgate had no problems whatsoever with this, and was happy to see Rosamond amused. We know how Rosamonds mind was working, but there is nothing at all to suggest any impropriety.

What did Dorothea see and hear, JOAN? "Seated with his bac towards her on a sofa....she saw Will Ladislaw; close by him and turned towards him with a flushed tearfulness which gave a new brilliancy to her face sat Rosamond, her bonnet hanging back, while Will learning towards her clasped both her upraised hands in his and spoke with low-toned fervour."

The scene does have a closeness that Dorothea could well read as evidence of an intimate relationship. On the other hand, Rosamond is 'tearful', and Will's 'low-toned fervour' could equally well be earnestness. Perhaps he is trying to console her over something. But we know from earlier information that he was coming to see both of the Lydgates, with an underlying hope of perhaps seeing Dorothea. There is no suggestion, except by idle rumor, of any yearnings toward Rosamond.

Then, the proof. After Will's tirade Eliot writes: "He had felt no bond beforehand with this woman who had spoiled the ideal treasure of his life, and he held himself blameless."

The Defense rests.

Babi

Will Will pay for his moment of weakness? Will Rosamund get her head around the idea that despite her dreams about Will he is not enamored of her? Will Dorothea continue to be a Saint and not be even a wee bit angry at Rosamund?(Does a cold floor of 1830 equal a cold shower of 2005?)

I don't think GE is writing a soap opera but every soap opera is stealing a page from MM. We are all hooked on these people and want to know if they will end up together or apart. I beleive that GE will fulfill our deepest hopes. She does not write Tragedies but Victorian novels and they MUST end with some sort of happiness. Will and Dorothea were meant for each other from the start. They have traveled such a long way and overcome enough hurdles for ten couples.

However , Will himself is thinking :"And it seemed to him as if he were beholding in a magic panorama a future where he himself was sliding into that pleasureless yeilding to the small solicitations of circumstance, which is the commoner history of perdition than any single momentous bargain."

Oh ,No ,Will! Don't despair. All the Senior Net book group is pulling for your future happiness. And that is one strong group.

Judy

Re: "GE is not too crazy about men or blondes!"

I just finished Eliot's The Mill on the Floss and noticed the same thing in that book. The heroine Maggie is dark-complexioned and has very dark hair. Her brother is blond with fair skin and pink cheeks (like Fred.) The heroine's relatives and mother are always remarking, in front of her, how unfortunate it is that she doesn't have her brother's coloring.

I wonder if all of Eliot's heroines have dark hair? I was curious about Eliot's appearance, so looked it up. Here are some paintings and photos of Eliot, who had dark hair:

http://womenshistory.about.com/library/pic/bl_p_george_eliot_1.htm

http://womenshistory.about.com/library/pic/bl_p_george_eliot_2.htm

http://womenshistory.about.com/library/pic/bl_p_george_eliot_3.htm

http://womenshistory.about.com/library/pic/bl_p_george_eliot_4.htm

Marni

JUDY: I had similar thoughts!!!

Marni: Thanks so much for the photo links! Aside from the profile when she was 'elderly'...such a sweet face...did you notice how thoughtful and tender her eyes? A true romantic...

As so stated by JUDY: "She does not write Tragedies but Victorian novels and they MUST end with some sort of happiness."

Having now seen these photos, I agree...

Alliemae

Good morning, Alliemae!
Yes! I too believe that Eliot is writing a Victorian novel and knows not to write a tragedy here, Judy. She needs to provide a happy ending.

But we've come to know her as a non-conformist. She also has demonstrated great psychological insights. To end the story on a rosy, happily-ever-for-everybody note in order to satisfy her readership would be uncharacteristic of the author we have come to know - in my opinion

Is it possible that she can write a happy ending to satisfy expectations and yet express the doubts she seems to tuck into every paragraph that the ending really and truly is a "happy" one?. I'm not sure what I am seeing here, but I feel that by leaving some of the hopes and cherished dreams of her characters unrealized her ending seems to take on a sense of - settling - achieving a degree of happiness, yes - but a wistful yearning for what-might-have-been hovers. I have found myself becoming quite introspective in reading these final chapters and empathizing with the characters and the choices they felt were the obvious ones to make at the time. Do you sense this, or is it just me?

Fai, you see Dorothea as finally herself. "Both Will and Dorothea have learned to let their passion overrule social concerns and pride that has been coming between them." But how long can the emotions rule?

Judy, yes, she comes to recognize her emotions, her feelings for Will...but in saying yes to Will, she is renouncing not only her fortune, her estate, but also her life-long dreams to make the world a better place using that fortune. What will she do without her plans, without the wherewithal to carry out her plans? Without her independence, I guess I'm asking? What do you see for Dorothea? A happy ending when the emotions ebb??

Those emotions seem to have been sparked by jealousy, seeing Rosamond and Will in what looked like a compromising situation (thank you for reviewing that scene, Babi) and concluding that the rumors were true - her emotions peak. But doesn't she calm herself with the resolve that she will carry on doing good in the world? Would she have succeeded in living a happy, fulfilling life had Rosamond not told her of Will's feelings for her?

ps. Marni, thanks for the portraits - several I hadn't seen before. Whenever I see one of the portraits of Eliot, I think of Mary. Do you feel that she sees herself more as Mary, or Dorothea?

After a while, I found myself forgetting Mary is supposed to be homely - as both Fred and Farebrother vie for her hand. I start to imagine her as she looks in the D'Albert-Durade portrait when she was 30 - pretty mouth, pleasant expression - eyes twinkling -

Faithr said, “And yet---Dorothea has made a big change here. She is finally herself and she is going to put her own happiness ahead of these others for once. She has learned how to make decisions that will make her happy.”

I understand what you are saying here. Dorothea is changed from how she acted while married to Casaubon and during her mourning period. However, I think she is now back to her original self, the person we saw early in the book, who married who she wanted to marry, not who society thought was best for her, and who pursued what interested her, not what society thought women should pursue. I think Dorothea has come full circle.

I can post a little today (I hope). My son and visiting SIL and grandson have this mongo computer game rivalry going on (I wouldn’t bet against the six year old) and I can’t get near the computer. But today they have gone to look at dinosaurs in the Smithsonian. I only have to be quicker than my daughter and the two-year- old. (Mmmm. Computer games and dinosaurs! There’s a moral in that somewhere).

JUDY: “Oh ,No ,Will! Don't despair. All the Senior Net book group is pulling for your future happiness. And that is one strong group. “ Good for you!! I wouldn’t bet against anyone that had this group pulling for them.

“he himself was sliding into that pleasureless yeilding to the small solicitations of circumstance, which is the commoner history of perdition than any single momentous bargain.”

What an interesting quote. Do you all agree. Is that how we sell our souls?

“Is it possible that she can write a happy ending to satisfy expectations and yet express the doubts she seems to tuck into every paragraph that the ending really and truly is a "happy" one?. I'm not sure what I am seeing here, but I feel that by leaving some of the hopes and cherished dreams of her characters unrealized her ending seems to take on a sense of - settling - achieving a degree of happiness, yes - but a wistful yearning for what-might-have-been hovers.”

Beautifully put!! When we’ve all read the finale, I think that alone would make a great discussion.

I can’t seem to find that quote from the writer Henry James that we had at the beginning. He said, if I remember, that Eliot was “spectacularly ugly”. but that when you knew her, she was completely fascinating (or something like that). I certainly agree with the completely fascinating part.

I, too, feel that Rosamund has changed as much as it is in her power to change. D. coming full circle – I hadn’t thought of that. I think you’re right.

JoanK, "“he himself was sliding into that pleasureless yeilding to the small solicitations of circumstance, which is the commoner history of perdition than any single momentous bargain.”

I think it would not be an uncommon thought for a person who has faced as many tragedies, disappointments, and patronization as Will had in his life.

Alliemae

Alliemae; You are quoting JoanK quoting me, quoting Will who is really part of GE. Oh, this group has really become cohesive.I vote GE in as a Member in full standing of this Seniornet Book group.

Remember Shakespeare: "Oh, what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive." GE is not quite deceiving but is leading us up the garden path to keep us wondering and waiting and hoping. What genius.

Thanks Marni for the pictures. That site also includes pictures of her Birth home and her last home. Quite a difference. She died a very rich woman and we have been enriched by her,tenfold.

Family coming in on Friday so I will be in and out of the discussion till Tuesday.

Judy

Alliemae: are you saying that those of us who have led a more stable life won't slide into perdition? I hope you're right.

JUDY says to Alliemae “Alliemae; You are quoting JoanK quoting me, quoting Will who is really part of GE. Oh, this group has really become cohesive.I vote GE in as a Member in full standing of this Seniornet Book group. “

HAHAHAHA. And now I’m quoting you (talking to Alliemae quoting me quoting you quoting Will who is really part of GE.) And a partridge in a pear tree.

GE as honorary member sounds great.

Have a great time. Most of us will be out of the discussion on the weekend.

My day with only the two-year old didn’t go quite as planned. He cried the whole time and the only way we could console him was – guess what! the computer. I had him working my computer jigsaw puzzles (with only four pieces). I knew the computer was many things, but didn’t realize it was such a good babysitter.

JOAN, I was also struck by that sentence:

“he himself was sliding into that pleasureless yeilding to the small solicitations of circumstance, which is the commoner history of perdition than any single momentous bargain."

I think that is probably true of many lives. It reminds me of the biblical warning that it is "the little foxes that spoil the vines". It is the sort of thing that creeps up on people unawares, the small yieldings top circumstance.

Now, the finales lies ahead, and we will see what ultimately becomes of our favorites. Before Christmas, do you think, or shall we save that until after?

Babi

Babi, the heading shows the Finale discussion beginning on the 25 - but you're right, we should hold off until the 26th when hail, hail, the gang's all here. Will fix it now.

So, Will escaped "pleasureless perdition," Dorothea has consented to be his wife. I cannot wait to see how Eliot works that out because I cannot imagine her in London, unless she gets involved in some grand scheme - that doesn't require a lot of money! Remember how unhappy she was in Italy. She needs an "ideal community" where everyone loves one another to be happy.

And Lydgate, poor Lydgate...he's the one who will need to do some sliding into pleasureless yeilding to the small solicitations of circumstance, Can you see a happy ending for him?

"A happy ending for Lydgate?" Nope. Not a chance.

As I read ahead, I'm beginning to remember things from before so I'll just be dropping in and out but will probably see you all during the finale week!

Happy and Blessed Holidays to you all...and a Joyous, Healthy and Prosperous New Year Filled with Good Books!

Alliemae

I found the final scene between Will and Dorothea to be believable, even with the lightning. LOL! I honestly thought that they still weren’t going to admit their feelings to each other! I couldn’t believe it! But then they did, thank goodness. It took long enough! You know, I still would have believed it if they had walked away too. I hadn’t been cheering this couple on, so I was not emotionally invested.

I thought "FINALLY!" It was very romantic. I love to read beautiful romantic love scenes like that.

As I have been reading I have noted that the decisions that the characters (the good characters and the not so good characters also) make in Middlemarch seem to have a direct effect on other. Mary's decision to marry Fred means that Farebrother is without a wife, at least in this novel. Bustrodes dirty dealings certainly have brought disgrace on Will and now on Lydgate. It seems everyone in Middlemarch is intimately connected and no one can make a move without disturbing someone else, sometimes bringing good changes and sometimes upsetting the apple cart. Of course GE doesnt tell us what happens to some of the effected people like Rosemonds other swains or those gossips collected at the bar or Mrs Cadwallader the kind hearted but really busy-body gossip who knows all about everyone perhaps too much.

Fred may still escape from his empty headed mothers materialistic impractical training and become a man because of his love for Mary. I think of Mary as another Mrs. Garth. The author may see Dorothea as herself though as she had such an unsettled love life herself.

I have finished the chapters and was going on to read the Finale when I decided to wait for others .

I will comment on the last question above. I think all the characters are believable and most of their actions and reactions are much the same as we see in modern society. Not as compacted of course as Middlemarch but entirely believable and psycologically the novel plays well even today in my humble opinion. Faith

After all those weeks of suspense, we see resolution (good or bad). I wonder why Eliot chose to end with Mary and Fred, rather than Will and D?

Was the end romantic enough for you? I'm reminded of Jane Austen, who never lets you hear the dialog after the couple admits that they love each other. (In fact, the ending of the scene with Fred and Mary reminded me of "Persuasion" where the couple are interrupted just as they are declaring their love).

Faithr said, “As I have been reading I have noted that the decisions that the characters (the good characters and the not so good characters also) make in Middlemarch seem to have a direct effect on other.”

Yes, I, too, am amazed how intertwined the people’s lives are. It is “the web” Eliot mentions during the book.

This thought also reminded me of one of the things I liked best about these last chapters --- how Will, Rosamund, Lydgate, and Dorothea all assume what the other people know and don’t know, and their wrong assumptions lead to further misunderstandings. I found it funny. I wonder if Eliot meant for it to be funny or if she meant the readers to be frustrated for the characters?

JoanK asked, “Was the end romantic enough for you?”

It was definitely romantic enough for me. I didn’t find the book to be a romance, so they ending, to me, fit right in with the book and my expectations.

I suspect we little realize how far-reaching our actions and decisions really are. I have heard it said that everything we do or say has a ripple effect that can touch untold lives. Actually, that's kind of scary! Yet I can think back on my own life, and the life of my children, and recall small incidents, words spoken, that influenced future choices and decisions. Things I have completely forgotten are remembered as important events to my children.

It does tend to make me more careful about what I say!

Babi

I stole a moment away from cooking, cleaning , shopping , baking etc. Remember Xmas comes but once a year but Hannukkah lasts for eight days. Not only that but my Granddaughter will be having a baby within the next few weeks and it is a first Grandchild for my daughter and a first Great for us. So a Historic time!!

Regarding your last question Joan, " Does it work Dramatically? Psychologically?" Well it works better Psychologically than dramatically in my opinion. Dramatically it is a little too neat. All the peices fit together as perfectly as the Jigsaw Puzzle on your computer. Life is not like that. However when we read something our sense of balance demands that from the author, or at least when GE was writing readers did. Today some Authors flirt with less drama and more ragged edges. That doesn't make them better writers or more fun to read.

Psychologically I can't find fault with the characters themselves. In fact my wicked imagination insists on picturing GE doing a jig(or perhaps a polka) with good Dr. Freud. Oh MaryAnn Evans if you hadn't been a great writer you would have been a great Psychologist!

I want to wish you all a Happy Hannukah or aMerry Xmas. I'll be back in a few days.

Judy

Really? Christmas is just one day? hahaha, I feel it has been going on since Thanksgiving! Enjoy every minute of it, Judy! A great grandma. Congratulations! What a happy time - a very happy Hannukah to you!

The thing I'm loving most about this book is the introspection that is coming out of it as we ponder the angst of young love and life choices. Laura asks an important question, I think. Did Eliot intend to be funny with all the wrong assumptions and misunderstandings as important life choices are being made? What did you all think?

You find the characters believable - does this mean that you can see and accept the human shortcomings portrayed? I do. I think Eliot does too as she writes - à la Shakespeare, what fools we mortals be. Not only that, but as Faith points out, our flawed decisions have a direct effect on others. "Scarey" - as Babi puts it, when we think of how some of the things we've said and did affected our own children!

About the romantic ending - "Romantic enough" as Laura put it - you would have been okay if Dorothea had walked away, Laura - but would Eliot's readers at this time? I wonder if I'm becoming a cynic in my old age. Like you, Judy, I felt that Eliot would have preferred leaving "ragged edges" - but she knew her readers' expectations. I felt her straining to leave them with a reasonably "happy" ending for all. But I felt too that she succeeded in leaving her more cynical readers with the suggestion that when critical choices are made in an emotionally charged atmosphere, things look different when passion cools. She also leaves the more cynical reader with the unanswered question - what else could they (I) have done? What choice did I really have. I'm taking this question very personally, very seriously.

I'm happy that Eliot decided to add a Finale to the book. Was it published AFTER Book Eight? It's so short, I'm thinking she must have included it with Sunset, Sunrise. In fact, I'm thinking of the title in a whole new light when considering the addition of the Finale. The sun sets in Book Eight, with all the pieces fitting together, life choices made - readers happy with the romantic ending. But the sun will rise on these decisions tomorrow... and the next day. THe Finale was an important addition for Eliot as a writer, I believe. But we'll save that for Monday.

Try to enjoy the stepped up pace the upcoming holidays demand! (Try to keep up!) Resolve, a smile and a little lip gloss go a long way these days!

Love,
Joan

Our Christmas starts with Advent, four weeks before Christmas, and extends till January 6th, 'Little Christmas'.

My mom was great about keeping up with this. I, on the other hand, like a true Sagittarian, still find myself breathlessly playing 'catch up' so I'm grateful for my heritage and our long holiday! I'm still sending cards today!! I just found I only have 3 stamps left! I'll bake my cookies probably on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day as the kids and grans come around after that and on Christmas Eve day my oldest daughter will visit and will help me with some of the baking (I hope)!! Oh, how I envy Martha Stewart's calendar!!

Whatever you all celebrate, Be Blessed...and Have a Happy!!

Peace, Alliemae

LauraD YES! That's what I forgot...that web that Eliot mentions...good job!

Alliemae

Merry Christmas and Happy Hannukah to all, especially Judy! Enjoy that landmark event. I hope to have the same experience in the not too distant future (first great-grand)!

JUDY: what an exciting time for you!! I wonder that you can find time to think of anything except your comig grandchild. Will you be with her (I wasn’t, and it was hard. She called me on the phone, and I talked to her while she pushed.

Do let us know when the baby arrives..

Ooops – I misread you. great grand. Wow!! This won’t happen to me, as both I and my daughter had children late. I envy you.

“. All the pieces fit together as perfectly as the Jigsaw Puzzle on your computer. Life is not like that. However when we read something our sense of balance demands that from the author, or at least when GE was writing readers did. Today some Authors flirt with less drama and more ragged edges. That doesn't make them better writers or more fun to read. “

I admit (since I love jigsaw puzzles) that I like this kind of writing: where the author takes seemingly unrelated strands and weaves them together. It is very satisfying somehow. But you are right, it certainly isn’t realistic.

Not only the web. Do you remember the candle? I can’t find the quote, but she said if you take an old mirror with lots of scratches on it and put a candle in front of it, the scratches will seem to arrange themselves in a neat pattern. The pattern isn’t really there but is caused by the candle.

Does this apply to Middlemarch?

A polka with Dr. Freud?? What a tantalizing idea!!

Back later to answer the rest. Wrapping presents calls.

I just received my Bookmarks magazine today. Each issue includes an in depth article of a classic author and his/her works. This issue’s classic author is George Eliot! What great timing! I haven’t read the article yet, but any interesting tidbits I find will be included in our discussion of the Finale next week. Until then, Merry Christmas and Happy Hannukah to all, and to all a good night!

"any interesting tidbits I find will be included in our discussion of the Finale next week."

Laura, that will be wonderful...I can't wait!!

Alliemae

To all who celebrate today -
A Blessed, Joyful, Peaceful Time!
That wide-eyed anticipation of childhood
The realization that something wonderful is to happen,
Or has happened...

Did Eliot mean to be funny? Personally, I think Eliot knew exactly what she was doing, and handled every aspect of her novel masterfully. Humor, drama, romance, wickedness, frailty, danger, Eliot has it all portrayed with a wonderful realism.

And now, may I echo all the greetings here withBEST WISHES, JOY, PEACE, AND PROSPERITY IN THE COMING YEAR!

Babi

Happy Holidays Faith

Happy Holidays, everyone!

Marni

Good morning! Here's hoping you are all surviving the holidays! I'm not sure if it is the bustle of the season that signifies 2006 is almost here, or if it is the sense that we are coming to the end of our time together here, that makes me hesitate to move on to the Finale. Four months is along time, yet it is hard to say goodbye as we disembark and head in our own directions. I feel we have come to know (and appreciate) one another - and look forward to seeing you ALL again in future discussions in 2006.

Last week JoanK asked that I move forward a question that was beginning to form at that time - to this week's discussion. I'm not sure if I'm reading more into Eliot's Finale than she intended and would really like to hear what you all think once you have read the Finale.

Is it possible that she can write a happy ending to satisfy expectations and yet express the doubts she seems to tuck into every paragraph that the ending really and truly is a "happy" one?. I'm not sure what I am seeing here, but I feel that by leaving some of the hopes and cherished dreams of her characters unrealized her ending seems to take on a sense of - settling - achieving a degree of happiness, yes - but a wistful yearning for what-might-have-been hovers. I have found myself becoming quite introspective in reading these final chapters and empathizing with the characters and the choices they felt were the obvious ones to make at the time. Do you sense this, or is it just me?

I felt the endings were realistic. No 'happily ever after', but much desired outcomes and the mixed happiness and problems that any life must hold. Dorothea is happy supporting Will as he tries to carry out his career for the best good of all. Fred becomes a successful farmer, but retains his flaws in the judgment of horseflesh. Mary is content. Don't you think, JOAN, that none of us can expect more than a 'degree of happiness'. There is too much trouble and grief in life to expect all our fond dreams and wishes to come true.

Lydgate dies white-haired at a fairly young age, which is sad but not surprising. The burden of caring for the ever self-centered Rosamond and providing for their children was bound to strain this conscientious man's strength.

We hear no more of Bulstrode. I assume he took his family and went away as planned. Celia and her family I'm sure went on with their lives in the same way, and we now Sir James made his peace with Ladislaw, for Celia's sake.

I was wrong in expecting to learn more about Raffles and Riggs. The other shoe never did drop.

Babi

Oh dear, now I've forgotten why Riggs was even a character at all, except to ruin things for Fred about the money. And wasn't he Featherstone's son? Did this have something to do with Bulstrode? Oh dear...and then Riggs didn't even want to be bothered with the inheritance.

Is there a short explanation someone(s) can give or do I have to read the entire book all over again?

I think I'm ready for another book after this ending...my poor Lydgate!

If my memory is accurate and this book is based on a series of short stories of episodes of some sort, it does feel like GE got sort of tired at the end, at least to me it does.

Alliemae

A fine kettle of fish this is. There is no truly "lives happily ever after endings" in life so therefore GE is writing from life and her experiences. She leaves her characters as happy as can be expected and for the rest they muddle through. Isn't that just real life? Of course we might expect more of a book. There are loose ends and unanswered questions. We hear of cousins who play together anyway even if the blood of some may not be all it is cracked up to be. And we do not find out if Farebrothers finally has a wife. Probably not since he could not have Mary and his female relatives care for him and his home.

Character is not set in stone and the people in Middlemarch dont change much. They remain pretty much as they have been all along. Love does make some changes favorably in some characters. Still it seems destiny has taken charge of them, fate perhaps.

Dorothea is no St Theresa and GE seems to feel that even The Teresa could not have done much better under these conditions that Dorothea faced. And she felt that many more Teresa's had much more to face than Dorothea ever did. I totally agree with that. I need to go read the last chapter again. It leaves me dissatisfied. faith

Just stopping in to say "HI". I am glad you all enjoyed your journey.

JoanP, which characters do you mean when you say, “What else could they have done?” Do you mean Dorothea and/or Will could have walked away? The picture she paints of them at the conclusion seems to make that impossible, although I guess an author could have experimented with that choice, one reason being that Dorothea would be devoting herself to a life of altruism and charitable work, one step short of joining a convent. That would leave Will totally at loose ends, and he would have been worse off on his own than the sanguine Farebrother. I find nothing very appealing about that choice, and I’m sure Eliot knew her readers would not. Could Mary Garth have chosen Farebrother, as I had thought she would earlier in the novel? I also thought that the rumor about cholera would play a role and remove one suitor, but that was a red herring, as issue that was never pursued in spite of the development of the new fever hospital. Therefore, I suppose she still had a choice, but chose Fred, for reasons she gives in some lighthearted detail: “He was ten times worthier of you than I was (Fred says),”….”To be sure, he was, and for that reason he could do better without me. But you – I shudder to think what you would have been – a curate in debt for horse-hire and cambric pocket-handkerchiefs.”
Alliemae, I wonder about Riggs, too, more than Raffles, who like the other “low” characters doesn’t seem to warrant a great deal of development by Eliot. Like the rest of them, he remains two-dimensional, a plot or scene mover, and not much else. But Riggs seemed much more important, and the only explanation I can think of is that Featherstone wanted him to keep the money away from Fred who he believed would waste it. I don’t really know if we are to believe the “love child” theory. But then Bulstrode buys the estate, which ultimately leads to his final good deed: turning over control of the property to Fred Vincy, Harriet Bulstrode’s nephew, thorough Mary’s father.
Still rereading – two more chapters. I’m behind, then I’m ahead, then I’m behind …!

Could someone help me with #4? What are the "extraordinary acts of kindness of those who stood to lose so much"? I thought that both Bulstrode and Dorothea did what they did for each couple in part because they didn't need to keep all of their money; they really weren't in danger of losing anything that they needed. Therefore, I'm sure I'm misreading the first part of the question.

Good morning, Marchers!

Last night I began to watch the first part of the BBC production of Middlemarch. My dear husband checked the whole box of videos out of the library and wrapped it up for me as a Christmas gift. I'm loving it! The "stunning location footage" - I'm not sure if the street scenes in Middlemarch are actually Coventry, but just wonderful. The casting of most of the characters is excellent - Dorothea, Casaubon, Mrs. Cadwallader - I'm finding Rev. Farebrother a bit too much of a rogue...Mary a bit too fetching, but will see how it goes in Part II. You really ought to check local libraries and see if you can get your hands on this particular set of videos.

The opening scene shows the laborers putting in the railroad tracks and then the big steam engine...and Mr. Brooke talking of the CHANGE in the air. I'm wondering how much of the impending Reforms determined the action of the story? Certainly the medical profession was a'changing. Much of Lydgate's trouble came from the fact that he was ahead of his time in his practice of medicine. In what other ways did YOU see the possibility of change motivating the citizens of Middlemarch? I'm thinking if CHANGE is in the air, certainly Eliot sees her characters changing along with the times.

Seeing the big steam engine making its way into Middlemarch reminded me of our own journey into Middlemarch and the folks who accompanied us on that train. GinnyAnn, it is so good to see you here today! As I recall, you were checking your "To Read" shelf, for the novel. Please know that when/if you do, that this discussion will be Archived and a Readers' Guide is in the making - you can follow along at your leisure. There are so many excellent posts and "elucidations" that you should find helpful.

Did you all know that Mippy suffered a terrible hit when hurricane Wilma hit FL - taking out power, land-line phone connections and Internet connections too. She writes that she DID finish the book and is slowly catching up reading through the posts here. We've missed you, Mippy - and really look forward in seeing you in our next discussion.

We'll talk more about the next Great Books selection later this week - but we still have a lot to talk about given the new information we find in the Finale. Were you surprised at anything you read there?

I'm still here - reading and enjoying your posts from yesterday. Will be back in a few minutes!

Question #4 should be clearer - will fix that right now, Jo. Dorothea's act of kindness - her visit to Rosamond Lydgate to reassure her that her husband was really a good guy and not guilty of the rumors questioning his morals was extraordinary, considering the pain she was in over Will's breech of faith. Did Dorothea do this for Lydgate - because he had been so kind to her in the past? I tend to think she would have done what she did even if he had not helped her - because she believed Lydgate innocent. The thing is - she believed that Rosamond had been unfaithful to her husband, but still she went to her to plead Lydgate's cause. Amazing woman. I couldn't have faced the other woman with such equanimity. I guess that impressed Rosamond too - and that is why she broke down and told Dorothea that Will had NEVER preferred herself over Dorothea.

The other "act of extraordinary kindness" above and beyond the call was Farebrother's - giving Fred the second chance that made all the difference in safeguarding his future with Mary. This is another case of kindness extended to someone one believes is guilty as Farebrother believed Fred to be. He was giving him another chance to reorder his life, just as Dorothea did to Rosamond. Jo: "Could Mary Garth have chosen Farebrother, as I had thought she would earlier in the novel?" Thinking about your question I'm wondering if Farebrother ever really had a chance with Mary - EVEN if Fred had failed. She respected him, yes, was flattered when she realized that he respected her too. But did she ever think of him as her husaband? Did she ever LOVE him?

As you point out Jo - it was Bulstrode's money that gave Fred the living at Stone Court and made it possible for him to support Mary. So Fred's good fortune came from both Farebrother's sacrifice and Bulstrode's attempt to atone. Fred was just plain lucky!

"And we do not find out if Farebrother finally has a wife." Faith, when Mary tells Fred - "To be sure he (Farebrother) was (more worthy of her)... "and for that reason he could do better without me," - I believe that she knows something that we don't know. That Farebrother actually DID do better without her. Certainly Mary is not sorry she chose Fred, and in so doing, at Farebrother's expense. Isn't she admitting that Farebrother found happiness without her in these observations? That's how I saw that. Eliot writes, "Every limit is a beginning as well as an ending." Can we hope that Farebrother saw his limit as a beginning and did find happiness after all?

Babi, yes, I agree...happiness is measured in "degrees" in real life - Did you feel in Book 8 that Eliot left her readers with the a happily-ever-after ending, but in the Finale she gave the realistic version - that happiness comes with some regrets?

Bulstode - Babi, don't you imagine the Bulstrodes living out their lives in silence - perhaps there is nothing more to tell? He plans not to speak until his death. Hopefully Harriet will then get on with her life.

"Some time, perhaps -- when he was dying -- he would tell her all: in the deep shadow of that time, when she held his hand in the gathering darkness, she might listen without recoiling from his touch. Perhaps: but concealment had been the habit of his life, and the impulse to confession had no power against the dread of a deeper humiliation."

Raffles and Riggs - Oh dear, Alliemae, I can't see you reading the book all over again just to find out if Eliot had more to say about them! (Although I do think we would Perhaps they were BOTH "plot or scene movers" JO?

Riggs MAY have been Peter Featherstone's love child, Alliemae I'm inclined to believe he was, although Eliot doesn't really come out and say it. That was the gossip in Middlemarch. Riggs didn't want to be bothered with the estate - just took Bulstrode's money and left. Eliot doesn't tell us of any connection between Riggs and Bulstrode as I had suspected. Maybe there wasn't any? Maybe Bulstrode just wanted the estate. Why? Why did he want this place?

Are the loose ends and unanswered questions problematic, Fai, Babi, Alliemae? Maybe we can find some critiques and see what others have thought of this over the ages.

Dorothea & Tertius Lydgate - Jo, I was thinking of these two main characters, when I wondered what other choices they could have made - that would have led to more fulfilling lives. Eliot seems to be saying that Dorothea's gender did not allow her to do anything more than assist her husband. Personally, I think that she fulfilled her dream in her personal life - affecting every one with whom she came in contact. Sadly, she doesn't see that...and considers her dream unfulfilled.

Lydgate's goal had been to make great medical advances, curing the diseases that plagued his world. That's all he ever really wanted to do with his life. Did you think it was great irony that he died from something he might have researched? Instead he treated gout in the wealthy, frequenting their spas, looking for patients - He considered his life a failure, dreams unfulfilled. What an unhappy life he led - unlike Dorothea.

Good afternoon. My Christmas guests are on their way home, and I can hear myself think again. Middlemarch seems quiet by comparison.

The finale certainly left me a little sad. Not that Eliot didn't prepare us for it: with both Dorothea and Lydgate.

Did you find hints throughout that if only Dorothea and Lydgate could have recognized each other as kindred spirits and married each other, that they could have helped each other realize their dreams? I kept seeing that throughout, and in the Finale, Rosamund finally asks Lydgate why he didn't marry D? They found each other too late.

I truly liked the part of the story regarding Harriet Bulstrode when she was being assailed by the gossip and her reactions. The author somehow brought this lady to life for me finally, in this last chapters of her novel.

Her brother told her the whole story regarding Bulstrodes who was hiding and ill in his room. Walter vowed to stand beside her if she left or stayed and she was very touched. But she had to go to her room and sit alone sorting out her feelings, her own anguish over having nearly revered her husband as a saint for all these years and here now she sees the "feet of clay".

I was very touched and found it very real and true to life when she dressed simply and "combed her hair down" and went to her husband and said "I Know" and reached out to him. They did not have to have a confession and a forgiveness talk at all. They knew, and the fact is I cried and thought here is a little vignette of real life that is very touching. Faith

Hello Again, I am happy to be back to this great discussion and all the wonderful discussers (Is there such a word?).

What I loved about the ending most of all was Will's succes. As soon as he got out of the small minded provincial town who faulted him for his "foreign parentage" he came into his own and his charm and intelligence got him a seat in Parliament. Of course having an intelligent and adoring wife added to his self esteem and inner beleif in his own powers.

And then Dorothea. GE presents us with "Nature versus Nurture" when she writes: "For there is no creature whose inward being is so strong that it is not greatly determined by what lies outside it.".

And GE also adds about our Heroine: "...the effect of her being on those around her was incalcubaly diffusive: for the growing good of the world is partly dependent on unhistoric acts."

For me the ending was extremely satisfying. I love when all the peices of the puzzle dovetail. And the unanswered questions that so many of you have raised, they are things that I can ponder , which is also great.

So all in all I would say to GE "Well Done! and Three Cheers.!!"

The next book which I will try will be the Non Fiction "1776 "Discussion.. But of course the Great Books discussion for me is like the SONG of the SIREN. I won't be able to resist.

Best wishes to all. Great Grand has not come yet.Waiting, waiting.

Judy

JoanP, I get it now! At first I thought the question alluded to the money Dorothea sent to Bulstrode on Lydgate's behalf,and the estate management position arranged by Bulstrode for Fred. Now I understand that you meant the generosity of spirit in Dorothea's trip to speak to Rosamond after she found her with Will and Farebrother's admonishment of Fred when he could have taken advantage of his weakness to present his suit to Mary. (DUH! Maybe I have money on the brain!) I think it is significant, because the author gives us two portraits of goodness beyond our expectations of our fellow human beings. She shows that goodness actually having a lasting effect upon the lives of others. Shame on me, I guess, for being skeptical about these two, especially Dorothea! The two certainly are a welcome counterpoint to all the sniping and class snobbery that goes on in Middlemarch and the dishonesty that had such a painful impact on people's lives, especially the lives of Will and Harriet Bulstrode.
I do think Dorothea and Mary have something in common! They are acting out of simple emotion and the laws of attraction, primarily, and also the inborn need to be needed. As for Dorothea, I think Eliot hints that her natural goodness and concern for others makes her a corner-brightener wherever she lands. I still have to reread about three pages! I've been tired this week, and every time I sit or lie down to read, I nod off!

"Did you find hints throughout that if only Dorothea and Lydgate could have recognized each other as kindred spirits and married each other, that they could have helped each other realize their dreams? I kept seeing that throughout, and in the Finale, Rosamond finally asks Lydgate why he didn't marry D? They found each other too late. "JoanK, thanks for this!
I really thought at the beginning when he said D. was not to his taste that we were going to see him change his mind, and he does, but as you note, too late. They would indeed have enhanced each other's life plans, and I think that's the tragedy of the tale. I do wonder why Eliot decided not to have them come together, ever! Could it be because she didn't find what seems like an obvious union realistic enough? Maybe she believes that when we are in the midst of our lives we are too close to the details to see the obvious solution\or choice, and that's why we miss the boat, so to speak. Choices are crucial, and many of us don't seem to be able to make the right ones. Does she think this, too?

JUDY, I also found the endings very satisfying. For Dorothea, I feel that being someone who 'brightens every corner' where she lives, and makes the lives of everyone around her a bit happier, is a very fine thing indeed.

While Lydgate and Dorothea can both be considered more noble in character than the general run of people, there was never the slightest indication that Dorothea saw him in any other light that a good, intelligent man worthy of trust and support. Will Ladislaw was the one who brought some lightness and brightness into her life during her unhappy marriage to Casaubon. I she had not been able to marry him, I doubt she would ever have married again.

You make a very good observation there, JO. I hadn't thought of that, but Mary and Dorothea are both very honest, open, straighforward women. They both have a simple, natural goodness. I'm glad you pointed that out.

I would have been disappointed if Eliot have not written her 'finale', showing us what happened to the main characters. I wanted to know, and would have felt dissatisfied with her if she had left us wondering. But Eliot does not disappoint.

I don't believe I have ever enjoyed a book discussion as much as I have this one. For that I'm grateful not only to Eliot, but our two Joans and Deems as well. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Babi

After thinking back over all the characters in this book, I think that Harriet Bulstrode is the REAL hero...at least mine...

Yes, I know...I know...they are all GE! So I must also tell you all that she is also a hero for me...how can one person write this many lovable, disagreeable, beautiful, deplorable, and sometimes just everyday but always engagingly believable characters.

I'm so new at this 'reading a whole book' thing. Oh, I used to devour books until I got used to seeing them on television or video. I may have mentioned that before these SeniorNet book discussions I had to force myself to read a page in a day. But there is something so special reading and discussing a book with a group. So many eyes, and hearts and minds...the experience, I would say, is definitely exponentially enjoyable!

Alliemae

Gosh, Alliemae, we have much to thank YOU for - you can see how the multiple views and voices make these discussions so "exponentially enjoyable!" Hope to see you in the near future for another...and another!

I'll agree with you about Harriet Bulstrode. Eliot left us with the understanding that she was prepared to remain the loyal suffering wife to the husband she feels she does not know. Even the family unit she had worked so hard to build is lost to her.
.

"...he felt a deep distress at the sight of her suffering. She had sent her daughters away to board at a school on the coast, that his crisis might be hidden from them as far as possible. Set free by their absence from the intolerable necessity of accounting for her grief or of beholding their frightened wonder, she could live unconstrainedly with the sorrow that was every day streaking her hair with whiteness and making her eyelids languid."

Fai I thought the passage you quoted in which Harriet went alone to her room to sort out her feelings - and then took off her ornaments, fixed her hair in the "methodistical" way - was the most powerful and touching scene in the book. In ways it was similar to Dorothea's night of weeping at Will's infidelity - but more powerful, I thought. Dorothea had something to look forward to - she takes off her mourning clothes to face her new life without Will. Did you notice how Harriet's appearance is now in compliance with the strict "methodism" which she had believed her husband to practice. The irony - to me - Bulstrode really, really did believe in that way of life as a means to salvation.

Eliot gave this scene her all. She seems to have felt Harriet's pain, experienced it first hand. I don't think it was necessary to write any more of them in the Finale. Perhaps we empathized so much with Harriet because we KNEW what the rest of her life was going to be - didn't need to hear it again in the Finale.

Welcome back, Judy! I agree - you are all wonderful "discussers!" Where would we be without you? We seem to be saying as a group that we find the ending "satisfying" - we are glad Eliot provided the Finale. Has Eliot provided a typically Victorian "happy ending?" We seem to be questioning that still.

JoanK - yes, when considering Lydgate and Dorothea, I see what you mean about the Finale leaving you "a little sad." Had Eliot not included the Finale, we could hope that somehow Lydgate and the "new" Rosamond might find some happiness. We could also hope that Dorothea would find a way to fulfill her early dreams at Will's side. The Finale seemed to indicate that Dorothea went through life trying to fulfill her dreams within the confines of the society in which she lived, but never quite felt that "freedom" and respect she was searching for in the beginning of the novel.

Judy - points to an important statement from Eliot - " the growing good of the world is partly dependent on unhistoric acts." So much truth in that, but sadly, Dorothea doesn't seem to recognize the importance of the contributions, the "unhistoric acts" she performs on a daily basis - a "corner-brightener wherever she lands," as Jo put it...

I felt that Dorothea was "reasonably" happy with her life - poor Lydgate not at all - his head has been buried in that "basil pot." Would he have been better off married to Dorothea? Would they have found one another had they not been married to others?

He was a man dedicated on doing good for mankind. She would have made allowances for his research. Could she have worked with him - as she wanted to work with Casaubon? I don't see how. Could he have allowed her to follow her own plans to improve the living standards in Middlemarch rather than provide a hearth and home for him - for his children?

Jo! That's it! "Choices are crucial, and many of us don't seem to be able to make the right ones. Does she(Eliot) think this, too?" Maybe that's what makes me, at the very end, feel this is a sad, rather than a happy ending. Oh, I wish I knew the reaction of her readers! Did they too see it as sad? Would they accept that? We make so many important choices in our lives when we have so little life experience ...when we are so poorly equipped to make lasting, binding choices!

Babi makes a point - both Dorothea AND Lydgate made choices based on a strong emotional responses - to Will and Lydgate to Rosamond. There's no accounting for "love" is there? Maybe the respect between Lydgate and Dorothea was just that. Maybe love has to be a combination - an emotional response to another that includes knowledge not only of the attributes of another, but also their shortcomings - and respect for the whole package. As between Mary and Fred. Or Susan and Caleb Garth...

“"For there is no creature whose inward being is so strong that it is not greatly determined by what lies outside it.".

Exactly right. We are all prisoners of the time and place we live in. A few great ones are able to see beyond that, and lead us all. Lydgate perhaps could have been one of them. And Dorothea, although she had more to contend with. But even the greatest can only see a little bit ahead.

If I’ve told this story before, skip it. I’ll never forget when I was in Israel meeting Ben Gurion. He was old and retired then. At that moment, he was very upset at something that was happening. He called out that he didn’t understand. He said “I built this country and now I don’t even understand it”. Even our leaders become pulled by history into places they never dream of, or left behind.

I was saddened by the ending. We all need our Lydgates and Dorotheas. There are so few of them, I hate to see that passion and vision wasted. Even if at the end, Ben Gurion felt left behind and saddened, Israel wouldn’t have been the same without him.

I was satisfied with the book's ending although not everyone was happy and there were a few loose ends.

Fred Vincy and Mary Garth "achieved a solid mutual happiness." Lydgate, as expected, "always regarded himself as a failure: he had not done what he once meant to do." Dorothea had the "feeling that there was always something better which she might have done, if she had only been better and known better." However, she and Will were very happy in their love for each other. Although much of Dorothea's happiness resulted from being "absorbed into the life of another" (her husband), she carried on her saintly activities and continued to help others. Dorothea led "a life filled also with a beneficent activity."

Eliot neatly linked back Dorothea's fate in the Finale with that of the unrecognized St. Theresa's in the Prelude:

Finale: Dorothea's "full nature...spent itself in channels which had no great name on the earth. But the effect of her being on those around her was incalculably diffusive: for the growing good of the world is partly dependent on unhistoric acts; and that things are not so ill with you and me as they might have been, is half owing to the number who lived faithfully a hidden life, and rest in unvisited tombs."

Prelude: "Many Theresas have been born who found for themselves no epic life wherein there was a constant unfolding of far-resonant action; perhaps only a life of mistakes, the offspring of a certain spiritual grandeur ill-matched with the meanness of opportunity; ....Here and there is born a Saint Theresa, foundress of nothing, whose loving heart-beats and sobs after an unattained goodness tremble off and are dispersed among hindrances, instead of centring in some long-recognizable deed."

Marni

I would like to answer part of Questio 4:" Did Mary choose Fred over Farebrother for reasons similar to those Dorothea chose Will over her own dreams?"

NO and No. Mary can control Fred who madly loves her and NEEDS her. For Mary no one can possibly be as perfect as the Father she adores. Farebrother is too old and wise and not easily manipulated. Mary enjoys (perhaps needs) to be in charge of all the situations she is involved in (remember the scene with Featherstone and his Will). Mary is an Oldest sister so her identifying with her powerful Mother is understandable and makes perfect psychological sesnse. Freds adoration of her makes her life more secure and happier than a normative relationship with Farebrother might have been.

Dorothea , on the other hand, needed Wills wonderful lightness and quickness . He pulled her out of her serious and helped her see all the beauty of life. Remember how GE mentioned at the begginning of the book D.s lack of feeling for the Art that surrounded her in the Museum in Rome? D. and Lydgate would have been so heavy together that they might have sunk. Lydgate wanted only "Light" women since they counterbalanced his seriousness. Although he did not count on lightness being bound up with superficiality. Will had both intelligence and joy in his being and Dorothea was attracted to those marvelous qualities.

Judy

MARNI: thanks for neatly tying the beginning and end together. It seems to me she made a similar prediction about Lydgate, but I couldn't find it.

JUDY: you convinced me. D. needs Will's lightness, and Will needs her seriousness.

my introduction calls Will the most poorly drawn character in the book. Does anyone agree?

...as I thought of my poor Lydgate!

The only type of woman who might have made Lydgate really happy in marriage would have been a combination of Rosamond's beauty and grace, and with Mary's levelheadedness, quality of thrift and ability to motivate and convice and gently coax and nag...and finally, Dorothea's sensitivity and loveliness of soul (which would also have made it possible for each of them to realize their individual dreams and have each other to discuss those dreams, failures and successes with) which means one of two things:

Either Lydgate needed a harem, or...

This author, as many others, separates the gamut of qualities within each human, illuminating those qualities and enlarging them by giving one (or two) to each separate character.

"my introduction calls Will the most poorly drawn character in the book. Does anyone agree?" JoanK

Now that you mention it Joan, I would love to have known more about Will...and also how his and Dorothea's life went on into the future...maybe a 'postscript' to the 'finale'???...or, a sequel? But definitely more on Will during the book! It would have been interesting to see how Will would grow up and how Dorothea would blossom.

Alliemae

Good morning, Alliemae - still smiling over Lydgate's "harem!" I was wondering if Rosamond didn't need something similar. We're told in the Finale that she never got herself into a compromising situation again. Again??? Makes you wonder what went on with Will - or with Captain Lydgate for that matter.)

I'm a little later than usual due to "delving" and see that you have left a few nibbles for breakfast - and the coffee is still warm.

I've been looking into the critical reception of Middlemarch at the time of its publication. I hesitate to interrupt the observations that you all have been making here - ( please, please don't stop because your perceptions of Eliot's work are as valid and important as were Eliot's readers in her time!) - but have found a very complete site that addresses some of the same reactions you are having. JoanK - apparently Eliot's readership saw enough of Will, (incomplete as it was), to dislike him - more so that we did. Judy, I'm wondering whether Eliot herself liked Will's character -

"Yet even this repulsive man (Casaubon) was better than Dorothea's second choice of husbands, Will Ladislaw. Not only did the critics refuse to like him, but they could not understand why Eliot (or Dorothea) did. The Spectator wrote,
"Will Ladislaw is altogether uninteresting ... He is petulant, small, and made up of spurts of character, without any wholeness and largeness" (Dec. 7, 1872).

"One critic blamed the insubstantial nature of Ladislaw's character on George Eliot's being a woman, calling Will a "woman's man," and noting that he is a failure as a character because "he is, we may say, the one figure which a masculine intellect of the same power as George Eliot's would not have conceived with the same complacency" (The Galaxy, Mar. 1873).
But ultimately it seems the general dissatisfaction with Ladislaw was the result of a sense of unfairness about the novel's ending. Ladislaw's success and Lydgate's failure drew the critics into an implicit comparison of the two men, and the result was the general lack of repose the critics disliked about the novel. The Saturday Review wrote:
Nature has done much for [Ladislaw], but duty - by which all the other characters of the story are tested - altogether fails in him. He does what he likes, whether right or wrong, to the end of the story; he makes no sacrifices. ... While poor Lydgate - ten times the better man - suffers not only in happiness, but in his noblest ambitions ... because he marries and is faithful to the vain selfish creature whom Ladislaw merely flirts with. (Dec. 7, 1872).
The contrast between the fates and the characters of the two men is perhaps even more strikingly rendered in the criticism of them than in the novel. While Will was considered weak and selfish, Lydgate was a "complete portrait of a man," "treated so little from what we may roughly (and we trust without offense) call the sexual point of view" (The Galaxy, Mar. 1873). Middlemarch - Critical reception

Several unanswered questions -

1. Do You agree that Middlemarch ends on a pessimistic note - with a pessimistic message as did G. W. Cooke back in 1881?
"The purpose of Middlemarch is critical, to show how our modern social life cramps the individual, limits his energies, and destroys his power of helpful service to the world. This critical aim runs through the whole work and colors every feature of it. The impression made by the whole work is saddening; and the reader, while admiring the artistic power and the literary finish of the book, is depressed by the moral issue (325)." Middlemarch - Critical reception

2. It is said that every novel needs at least one protagonist. Do you see both Dorothea AND Lydgate as protagonists in this novel? Or does Dorothea take the first bow, alone?

Marni - Thank you for bringing the side by side contrast of the Prologue and the Finale. Would you like to know how some of Eliot's readers viewed Dorothea as a 'modern' Theresa? (from the same source listed above) -
"Dorothea was certainly not regarded as the ideal prototype of a heroine by the general public. The Catholic World was particularly harsh with her character, taking exception to the comparison of Dorothea with Saint Theresa, and observing that "from beginning to end, all is uncertainty with her. From girlhood up she lives in an atmosphere of self-delusion and imagination which can find no other possible vent than aimless aspirations after imaginary perfection" (Sept. 1873).
Most critics were not quite as condemning, but they nevertheless found her an uncomfortable model for English womanhood. Looking for instruction in the novel, in the form of a female role model, the critics naturally felt Eliot's choice fell on Dorothea rather than her more ordinary sister, Celia, or the devious Rosamond. But the choice did not make them happy.
"We must say that if our young ladies, repelled by the faint and "neutral" virtues of Celia on the one hand, and the powerfully drawn worldly Rosamond on the other, take to be Dorotheas, with a vow to dress differently from other women, and to regulate their own conduct on the system of a general disapproval of the state of things into which they are born, the world will be a less comfortable world without being a better one." (Saturday Review, Dec. 7, 1872).
The Saturday Review even went so far as to comment that if the condition of the ideal woman is to be surrounded by dignified objects but choose to reject them, it was "a condition not adapted to the continuance of the race" (Dec. 21, 1872). The same idealistic oddity of behavior that isolated her from Dorothea Middlemarch neighbors also estranged her from the critics of the book.
What did you think of Dorothea's character? Does Eliot sympathize or empathize with her? Do you?

I finished MM long ago and other areas of my life grabbed me, but I want to thank all of you, I learned a tremendous amount about reading a book like this by sharing all the viewpoints and since this is my first online book club, I am inspired to do more.

Happy Holidays and a Great 2006

I was completely satisfied with the ending, even stating to myself as I closed the book, “Perfect.” I like it when books leave loose ends. I can fill in the blanks myself, based on what I know about the characters. I also like when endings are part happy, part neutral, part sad. That makes them just like real life --- a mixed bag, filled with conflicting emotions. While perfect is not a word I would use to describe this book as a whole, in my opinion, the ending was.

I don’t see that any of the people in the novel changed in character. Fred kept himself mostly under control, but didn’t really change. I think that is the nature of any change seen in the book, a change in behavior, not in character.

I agree that Will is the most poorly drawn character in the book. I constantly felt like I couldn’t figure him out or understand him. Maybe other readers felt this way too, given this comment.

I think Dorothea is the true protagonist of the novel. Everything really centers around her, even to some extent Lydgate’s marriage (via Rosamund and Will) and the hospital (via her work and financial contributions). Yes, Dorothea gets first bow, alone.

First , let me quote from GEs own diary (Jan. 1, 1873)

"At the beginning of Dec, the eighth and last book of MM was published.... No former book of mine has bbeen received with more enthusiasm-not even Adam Bede, and I have received many deeply affecting assurances of its influence for good on individual minds. Hardly anything could have happened to me which I could regard as a greater blessing, than the growth of my spiritual existence while my bodily existence is decaying......."

The fact that Dorothea is not perfect is the source of her greatness. Most great literary figures, from the Bible onward, had both good and bad in their character. If they didn't they would not be human but superficial shadows on a scren that we could forget immediately. Personally , many of the characters of MM will remain in my alltime greats list. I don't really care what the critics of the time said. From an early age I read Literary Criticism and judge it on its own merits as good or bad writing. If the Critic is good enough to interest me in an Author he has done his job.

As far as Will goes: Is he a"Girly Man" as Arnold Shwarzenegger might say. He is the only character in the book who acheives wordly success as a writer and a Politician. He has the power to influence others. So I beleive the Author was very clear about his character. She liked him, as do I.

As far as Lydgate is concerned, well his brilliance was followed by mistakes in his personal life that in the end, limited his success. That portrait is also true in real life. Rosamund had all the earmarks of success and status that she craved . So not only the good folk are rewarded. She sucked Lydgate dry and then married a rich and successful second husband.

Thanks to all the great preparers of this discussion. I doubt wether I could have gone through this book with half the enjoyment as I did. In a very large measure because of the questions, answers and feedback from such a great group. The laughs helped too.

Judy

JOANP: I’m not at all surprised that the critics didn’t like Dorothea. This is, in the context of the day, a very feminist novel. Eliot is groping her way toward a redefinition of women’s roles, as she did in her own life. And just as happened to her in real life, she makes some people very angry by doing so. As someone who was active early in the feminist movement, I am very familiar with this anger. It can seem out of proportion to the issue involved, but an attack on accepted roles is very threatening to some (men and women).

Celia and Rosamund are the women who fulfill the roles that are expected of them. Celia, who is subservient to her husband, is shown as rather stupid and silly. Rosamund does what women who chafe under subservient roles are told to do – get her way by wiles and deviousness. She is shown as evil.

Dorothea is the one who has the desire for something more. She is shown in the end as taking the route of intelligent women everywhere, and being a stalwart behind her husband. I’m not clear what Eliot herself thought of this ending. She really admired women in this role (as do we in Harriet Bulstrode), but it’s clear she feels a sense of settling.

Eliot also criticizes men’s expected roles. It is Lydgate’s unthinking acceptance of social stereotypes that is his undoing. Perhaps it is Will’s freedom of role that angered critics.

I agree with LAURA in liking the ending dramatically. It is the ending she has been preparing us for throughout the book, and any other would have seemed phony. But it’s true that Will the butterfly is so slightly drawn, it’s difficult to envision him as he matures.

Here are a couple of interesting quotes from the Bookmarks article on George Eliot:

“Eliot also emphasized human will: a character may make a choice that determines later actions. This ‘ethical determinism,’ also resonant in Adam Bede, ultimately explains human behavior.”

I can’t help but think of Bulstrode’s life when reading that quote.

As a summary of Middlemarch, the article states the following:

“THE BOTTOM LINE: A Victorian classic about the dialectic of historical and human change. Eliot’s stated goal: to give her readers ‘a clearer conception and more active admiration of these vital elements which bind men together and give a higher worthiness to their existence.’ “

Hmmm…I think this means she wanted to show the human elements common in all people and show how all people are capable of good and higher purposes.

I have to say that it was thrilling for me, reading the reviews of the book from the time when it was written...as exciting as it is when I walk down some of Philadelphia's cobbled streets and old brick sidewalks and realize that our founding fathers and mothers and others who came before us had walked down these very same streets.

Thanks, JoanP

The same goes for "...quote from GEs own diary (Jan. 1, 1873)" Judy

Thanks, Judy

Alliemae

Laura, I looked up the Bookmarks website and hope one day to be able to subscribe. Thanks so much for sharing...

Alliemae

Happy New Year to you too...and to all!! Can't wait for another great book discussion in 2006 and hope to see you all again!

Alliemae

JOANP, I do think the critics were much too harsh in their judgments. I found Eliot's characters very human and realistic, and I question whether the critics would have so heartily condemned friends, neighbors and acquaintances with the same human foibles as Eliot's characters.

I thought JUDY expressed all this very well in her last two posts. I don't think I can add anything to what she had to say.

Leading character: DOROTHEA. No question in my mind. Babi

Good morning, Marchers. We're getting very close to the finish line and I can't say how much your participation in this discussion has meant to us. It has been such a pleasure - thrilling to come in each morning and marvel at what you bring to the table each day. Thank you, one and all!
So you are seeing Dorothea as THE protagonist - as Laura says, "Everything really centers around her." ( More on this later, I have some notes somewhere on the role of the protagonist.)

Alliemae, I too was interested in reading the response to the book when it was first published. Not surprised, but really interested. In fact, would like to read more reviews from individual readers, not just the critics for reasons Judy has given. Harsh. JoanK I can see where this "very feminist novel" would have come as a shock to many. Laura's quote from Bookmarks on "Eliot’s stated goal: to give her readers ‘a clearer conception and more active admiration of these vital elements which bind men together and give a higher worthiness to their existence." - must have made great inroads in the thinking at the time, don't you think? Thank you for that, Laura.

BBC, thank you for coming by - we do hope to see you in our future discussions. We'll be considering the next selection in January. You'll want to take part in that decision, I'm sure. (If you've got an idea and want to get a head start, you may post a nomination of suggestion here - Great Books Upcoming)Happy, Happy 2006, Everyone!

"While perfect is not a word I would use to describe this book as a whole, in my opinion, the ending was" - Laura
"The fact that Dorothea is not perfect is the source of her greatness." - Judy
"It is the ending she has been preparing us for throughout the book, and any other would have seemed phony." - JoanK

One of my Christmas gifts was Jane Smiley's 13 Ways of Looking at a Novel. Your comments on "perfection" resonated with some of what Jane Smiley wrote abpit Middlemarch. What a tome! 600 pages. I guess I have time, now that the 800 pages of Middlemarch have been placed back on the shelf. You may have read some of her work - A Thousand Acres was a Pulitzer Prize winner several years ago. It seems that after 9/11, Jane Smiley found her desire to write "flagging" - and decided to read instead - first she planned to read 275 novels, but later decided on 100 of them - from classics to recent fiction - Atonement was one of them.

She explored to find why a novel succeeds - or doesn't - and how the novel has changed over time. I admit I haven't read much of it yet, but there's a wonderful Index in the back and I did read some of what she wrote on Middlemarch. She looves Middlemarch - has read it many times. She writes of Virginia Woolf and other critics who have declared it the greatest English novel - or even the greatest novel period. - and this is after reading 100 of them!

Other candidates for greatest novel ever - Anna Karenena
Our Mutual Friend
Moby Dick
Don Quixote
Past Recaptured - 7 volumes (I assume this is Proust's Remembrance of Things Past?)
Smiley writes that Middlemarch is an example of the principle that a novel may not be perfect, may in fact be too grand to be perfect. "Every sentence is so smart that the reader cannot help but feel little jolts of pleasure, one right after the other on every page."

Oh gee, there's so much more - on "perfect" and protagonists - but husband just got in from basketball, is appalled - it's after noon and I'm sitting here tapping on the computer in my bathrobe! Later!

“Nature has done much for [Ladislaw], but duty - by which all the other characters of the story are tested - altogether fails in him. He does what he likes, whether right or wrong, to the end of the story; he makes no sacrifices. ... While poor Lydgate - ten times the better man - suffers not only in happiness, but in his noblest ambitions ... because he marries and is faithful to the vain selfish creature whom Ladislaw merely flirts with.”
…except he did turn away from the money he knew came from a disreputable business, even though he was legally entitled to it and had been kept from his heritage for years. How could anyone think Casaubon the better man is pretty wild, considering his mean spirited treatment of Will and his effort to control young Dorothea’s destiny even from the grave. There’s no reason to suppose anyone in Middlemarch would approve of Will, either, because Eliot has provided in him a character counter to their ideas of what is normal and desirable in anyone they (Sir James?) would let into their circle. He is of mixed and shadowy heritage, a free spirit who has found beauty in life in his wanderings and who believes beauty and freedom nourish the human spirit, a viewpoint that Dorothea stands to benefit from in her struggle to find happiness and realize her own destiny. Middlemarch is Eliot’s major character, in a way, and if Dorothea had pursued her “destiny” without pursuing her happiness, she could have stayed there as the kindly widow who worked to benefit the poor and fund charity hospitals and schools for the lower classes. By choosing Will instead, she chooses to snap the chains of her Middlemarch existence, and I say more power to her, and I think that was Eliot’s intention. Will may not be the man that Lydgate is, but Will works to realize the potential he has. I don’t mean to take anything away from Lydgate, who still seems a tragic figure to me, but I do mean to emphasize one of what seems to me to be Eliot’s major intentions: to her, Middlemarch represents an insular class that failed to participate in a changing society. Will Ladislaw is fully participating in a changing world and brings Dorothea with him. We don’t see how that all works out, but it’s fun to imagine!
Some thoughts from the last two pages of the novel:
“ Brooke lived to a good old age, and his estate was inherited by Dorothea’s son, who might have represented Middlemarch, but declined, thinking that his opinions had less chance of being stifled if he remained out of doors.”
“…in… Middlemarch, … she was spoken of to a younger generation as a fine girl who married a sickly clergyman old enough to be her father, and in little more than a year after his death gave up her estate to marry his cousin – young enough to have been his son, with no property, and not well-born. Those who had not seen anything of Dorothea usually observed that she could not have been ‘a nice woman,’ else she would not have married either the one or the other.”
Here’s to the “not-nice woman” and Will in their London digs!

Had to get that in, even if nobody reads it! This is a wonderful book and the posts of the last few days have been wonderful, too. Allimae, loved Lydgate's "harum"! JoanK, I think you're right about the effect of this feminist work on the criticism of the time. In case we're finished,
HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL
and thanks for the wonderful discussion!

Happy New Year to All my Senior Net Friends

I loved this novel and felt those "sparks" on every page and sometimes in every sentence.

I felt I knew Will as well as any of the other characters so didn't get why the critics think he wasn't well drawn. And Lydgate, he was weaker than Will and my reason for saying so is that he never did what he set out in life to do, letting his wife push him around and he wouldn't have been better with Dorothea unless she pushed him in the right direction ...in other words I think they all got just what the author set out to have them get. And she takes away blame from her characters by subscribing to the "winds of fate" in their lives. The question of nature versus nurture was predominant also in my mind as the day and age and the social life surrounding these people formed so much of their character.

Dorothea was the protagonist all through this book. I think I knew her better by the comparisons of her to her sister. A good devise for the author. I read this book the first time when I was a freshman in high-school admit I didn't understand it then. I in fact totally forgot it. I have also forgotten all the other books plus the biography of GE that I read. I guess some trips to the library are in order. faith

JO: "Middlemarch represents an insular class that failed to participate in a changing society. Will Ladislaw is fully participating in a changing world and brings Dorothea with him. We don’t see how that all works out, but it’s fun to imagine!"

Excellent point, as usual. Yes. And as FAITH points out, Will has strengths just in the places where Lydgate lacks them: being in tune with the people around him, appreciation of beauty. Lydgate was one of the lucky (or unlucky) few who found an area that excited their passion. Will, like most of us, is still searching. The critics that blamed him were probably very happy that Lydgate settled down to treat gout.

I'm b a c k. And so sorry to have missed the discussion of the end of the novel.

DEEMS: there you are. You haven't missed it.We have another day -- plenty of time to get in last minute thoughts.

But again I want to thank all of you for making my first experience as a discussion leader such a wonderful one. Other discussions will have to work hard to measure up to this one. But if you all continue too participate, it will happen.

HAPPY NEW YEAR

HAPPY READING

I have just finished reading all your excellent comments and ideas and I just reread the Finale to see if I agree with everyone.

The Keys were wonderful, if a little cold for a short spell, but I missed all you Marchers and the internet. It is possible to do without the internet for two weeks, but I sure did miss it. At one point I was in a conversation about Carbon dating (don't ask) and I couldn't quite remember just what it was that got carbon dated and I sooooo wanted my Google so that I could refresh my brain. All I remembered was that it had to do with the half-life of the Carbon 14 molecule, but that is not to the point.

Is the ending happy? sad? in-between?

First, remember that at the time Victorian readers were quite accustomed to a final chapter that fast forwarded the main characters in the novel, explaining in broad strokes what had become of them.

Dickens' David Copperfield is one book that comes to mind. After David marries the silly Dora, who doesn't have a thought in her head, he finally notices the woman who has been in love with him for ever so long, marries her and they have a wondrously happy life together.

GE is no Dickens. She can't bring herself to provide so sentimental an ending. After all as so many of you have pointed out, life has its joys and sorrows. Eliot knew this. Both Dorothea and Lydgate lose the expectations of their youthful dreams. Lydgate dies before his hair turns white (he's only fifty) and he dies of, ironically, dyphtheria, which was one of the diseases he had hoped to make headway against.

I'm not much a fan of these tie-everything-up last chapters, but I like GE's insistence on giving us reality. It seems to me that Mary and Fred are the happiest couple of all (as they are also the simplest).

Middlemarch reminds me of all our individual lives when seen from a larger perspective. When we are born, we move into a fully complex world that got along quite well without us and yet, usually somewhere in the teen years, we come to see ourselves as having been born after "the old times" and brand-new in some sense. This is a delusion, of course, since we enter life in midstream and will leave it in midstream. Much happened before our own individual lives and much will happen after them.

Anyway, we have had a wonderful discussion of this book, haven't we? I'm so sorry to have been absent for the past two weeks, but it makes me happy to read through all your responses.

Happy New Year. May 2006 be a more peaceful and calmer year than 2005. May all the survivors of Katrina find homes. May Iraq know some kind of order. May all of you and yours be as happy as possible.

Maryal

I'm so glad some of you, such as Jo, stood up for the strength of Will as a character. He was my favorite character in this book. I thought he was a strong character, well drawn, and a strong man even though he was still searching for his place in the world when he married Dorothea.

We find out at the end that Will finds it, using his strengths of writing, speaking, intelligence, hard work, and political savvy. And he enjoyed fun, singing, art, travel, good conversation, a bit of flirting, and an intelligent woman. He could be passionate, firm, and committed, and he was kind. He had his eye on Dorothea from the onset. He recognized her spunk, her kindness, her beauty, and her mind.

I thought Will was very well defined. He was out of the main stream, but Eliot obviously liked his qualities very much. Will went after what he wanted and got it. He refused what he despised, stood up for his opinions and beliefs, and didn't care what others thought except for Dorothea.

I enjoyed our discussion very much. Well done, JoanK, JoanP, and Maryal!!! Thank you for making this such a pleasurable journey!

Marni

Do you hear it? The train whistle in the distance nears the station. Our extended stay in this provincial town is drawing to an end. I wouldn't have missed it for the world. We didn't always see things in the same way, but a more congenial group would be hard to find anywhere. You will all agree say our new DL's maiden voyage was outstanding! Here's to our own JoanK, who never missed a beat from start to finish! Let's all plan to get together again for another excursion in the coming year. I'm having a hard time saying goodbye to you folks.

We still have some time left. Have you forgotten anything? I'm loving your "endnotes" - putting things in perspective- considering Middlemarch's place in a changing world. We were never quite Middlemarchers, were we? Though we did come to know its inhabitants very well, we never did plan to stay - or did we?

Jo - "in a way", Middlemarch IS Eliot's major character - I think you summed up its character neatly - "Middlemarch represents an insular class that failed to participate in a changing society."Wasn't it interesting at the end the central cast joins us on the Departure platform?
"Here’s to the “not-nice woman” and Will in their London digs!" Aren't you reminded of Will's grandmother, Casaubon's Aunt Julia? She left her Middlemarch and a fortune in the dust - for love too. Dorothea always admired her for that. Let's hope that Dorothea comes to a happier end.

Maryal- You got here all tanned, fit and rested from your stay in the Florida Keys - in plenty of time for the departing train. Your thoughts on Middlemarch as a complex world... It was complex, wasn't it? Too complex for outsiders perhaps? Nearly all of the "outsiders" will leave by the story's end. Consider -

Dorothea and Celia had arrived in Middlemarch from Switzerland only a year before the story begins. Celia adapted. Dorothea was stifled.

* Dr. Lydgate, newly arrived, expected the place to be a backwater where he would be free to quietly do his research and change the world. He too was stifled, and had to leave. (There weren't enough gout patients in Middlemarch?)

Bulstrode, another outsider - had Raffles not come to town, would he have stayed on?

Will - always an outsider - never was there a chance he would stay in Middlemarch, with or without Dorothea.

Marni - Will was out of the mainstream - as you say, Eliot obviously liked his qualitiies. Don't you think that Mary and Fred, Farebrotherer, Caleb and Susan Garth were also out of the mainstream? Eliot liked them too, didn't she? Made sure theirs was a happy ending.

Faith- The "winds of fate" played a significant part in the lives of all. In the end how much of the story was determined by chance?