As you can see, we are preparing to begin our reading of the THIRD book we've looked at by EF Benson.

We welcome all newcomers, and all those Luciaphils or Luciaphobes who previously read Lucia in London and Queen Lucia!!

If you've not read either of the first two, don't feel a bit out of place, each book stands alone. Especially this one, in which Benson introduces a whole new town and new characters. Lucia is not mentioned in this book, and some of the characters do not continue on, either.

We'll start with a TEA PARTY, or as Hyacinth Bucket of "Keeping Up Appearances" likes to say, "Tea and light refreshments." Our "dress" will be "hightum," following the tradition of England in the 20's of indicating what sort of apparel would be expected to be worn. Sometimes I think they had it over on us, at least you had some idea and didn't show up in jeans when everybody else was in a ball gown, still.

"Hightum" is your very best, "Tightum" a little less and "Scrub" something you'd garden in. Or maybe something they'd garden in, what I would garden in would not make any grade.

I'm very interested to see how you liked this book. Benson did not INTEND for Miss Mapp to be a sympathetic character at all, but somehow she turned into one. We also have a set of video tapes making the rounds and they start with Book IV, Mapp and Lucia, in which the major protagonists get to clash against each other. It's a monumental clash!

Do get a copy if you possibly can, and join us here for the delightful world of Tilling-on-Sea, Diva, Quaint Irene, the Padre, the Wyses, the Contessa Faraglione, Major Benjy, Miss Mapp, and the chinz poppies on the dress!!

I must admit in this book one of the characters reminds me very strongly of somebody here on SeniorNet but wild horses, you know!

Ginny

Oh my, I feel like Diva on the streets of Tilling wanting the latest gossip and this one, we will actually have to figure out ourselves. Do we need a planchette to devine the mystery?

If Lucia is not present does that mean our dear Georgie is also absent? OK, I know just get started and read - I think I will wear a purple hat to tea. Yes, a big floppy staw purple hat with a large overblown pinkish white rose decorating as well as, many small apricot and pale green ribbons banding the crown and hanging. Not very Lucia in that I imagine her so much more sophisticated.

Oh yes, and I will bring of course in my tea caddy with the silver scoop, with some of Whittards afternoon mix. I just love Whittards and send over to London twice a year to replenish my tea. I really do. Here is the Link. Whittard

Barbara: Purple hat? Pinkish rose? Apricot and light green ribbons? WOW! What a picture. I'll have to think very carefully about my frock. I do know that my hat will be straw, cream colored, and will have violets dotted here and there on the brim. I can't wait to try the tea. Ginny: Will you serve fairy cakes? I can't imagine what those could be, but have read about them. Sounds Victorian, doesn't it? Also, water cress sandwiches, I hope.

For all newcomers - Ginny talked me into starting these books. I trusted her enthusiasm, but wasn't sure what I'd think. I LOVED THEM!! They are really some of the funniest, most entertaining books I've read in years.

I look forward to having tea with Miss Mapp!

Ginny, it's pronounced Boo-kay, my dear, boo-kay! Can't you just hear Hyacinth saying this (:

Megan

Yes, do join us, Everyone!! My dear, her Royal Doulton with the "hand painted periwinkles!!!" For those of you who hate British sitcoms, Hyacinth Bucket (pronounced, as Megan so rightly notes, BOUQUET, hahahahahhaa), stars in KEEPING UP APPEARANCES, a hoot of a show which contrasts her roots with her struggle to be "posh." hahahahahaa, It's a hoot, it really is.

ANYWAY, I was so struck by the first line of MISS MAPP:

"Miss Elizabeth Mapp might have been forty, and she had taken advantage of this opportunity by being just a year or two older."

hahahahahah

The man who INVENTED the phrase "encouraged to hope" strikes again in a new book with new characters in his own inimitable style.

Hope you will all join us July 15th as we begin. Let's do Chapters 1-4 in the first week, which include the "chintz poppies," and the "hoarded groceries."

hahahahaha. Laughing just thinking about it. NOT in the tapes, but priceless anyway.

I've got my "frock" for the "do," the combined Mapp Tea and Light Refreshments and Jeryn's Birthday Party!! Come one, come all!!! July 15th!!

That's thru page 113, is that too much?? Shall we serve Grandmamma Napp's Raspberry Fool?

Ginny

I see we've had a crash and my post on the Fairy Cakes have disappeared, so here is a quote from the Benson List Serve:

"1. Fairy Cakes are small sponge cakes, often decorated with icing. Imagine a small American muffin, but lighter in texture..."

and this from a real dyed in the wool Geraldine McEwan fan (no it's not Moi, it's someone on the Benson List Serve who says, "

Geraldine McEwan credits include: Barchester Chronicles, Mulberry, Tears Before Bedtime (Brit TV), The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie (TV), Littlest Horse Thieves (70's disney film, just now on video - through Amazon,) Henry V (Branagh's version - she plays a delightful fair Alice to Emma Thompson's Catherine), Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves (Rickman and McEwan made the movie bearable!) The Love Letter, and coming this fall and winter !!!! Branagh's 1930-40's version of Love's Labour's Lost with Nathan Lane, Richard Briers (co-star in The Chairs production) AND Titus, starring Anthony Hopkins and directed by Julie Tamar (Lion King) They filmed a lot of this in Croatia during January. She indeed has directed many plays --- as part of the Renaissance Group - she directed Kenneth Branagh in As You Like It, to wonderful reviews!

I simply adore her work and like so many, became a Bensonite because of her performance. She is also one of the most gracious women I've met. In four days I'm off to London and have tickets for Hay Fever. "

That's not ME off to London, but I am going in April with the Book Groups, I hope!

Ginny

Was there really a crash on SN???? Maybe explains why I was totally unable to get on for more than a minute last night and took Great Perseverance do get on tonight at all!!!

July 15 party; oooooo I can hardly wait!!!

My dear Miss Mapp,

It is with great pleasure that I accept your kind invitation to the party on Thursday, the 15th day of July. I plan to wear my lovely new stole over my sundress, into which I have incorporated a spectacular border of brilliant rose-madder hue. When I acquired this yard of worsted from Miss Plaistow, and told her of my intentions to wear it to your party, she told me to be sure to mention it to you beforehand. She wants everything to go smoothly at Miss Jeryn's birthday celebration. I have no idea what this is about. I am certain that you will be so busy that you will not notice it! I will be there early to help with the fairy cakes and of course will bring along the Godiva chocolats!

Oooooooh, Joan! I'm so excited! Of course, I shall pour. I am preparing a small, trivial game for anyone who comes. I will try to get here early... isn't this fun!

A grand welcome to you this fine morning on the day of our auspicious start to this new discussion. I thought we'd take about 50 pages a week, but first up, today is our splendid "do," celebrating Jeryn's birthday and the "birth" of our THIRD foray into the saga of Benson's MAPP & LUCIA.

So today is to be given over to revelry!

First: Happy Happy Birthday, Jeryn!!!

And in her honor:You are cordially
invited
to Tea and Light Refreshments
and a Po di Mu
This Afternoon starting at 3pm
(or whenever you can get here).
Romps

Hightum

You won't believe this, but I can't find my dress!! I can't find it!! Jim D sent me a whole page of hightum clothes, just gorgeous, chortle chortle said I I'll show that Diva Plaistow and that Mapp, and just notice that Joan P with her stole, o, nobody will match me for hightum and LOOK!!! I can't find it!!

PLUS Grandmama Napp's famous raspberry fool has gone sour! Withers has worked all day on it and now it must be made over!! And Elizabeth just dropped another Royal Dalton cup with the hand painted periwinkles, so off I go to the milliners to see what they can put together for me!!!!

Back this afternoon to fete the Birthday Girl!

Daisy

Oh, what a hoot! Love it, Ginny! This is just the cat's meow! IF I can get back this afternoon, I'll wear my best silk bib and tucker. Hightum, ya know. ['bout the only one left as I haven't had on a dress since 1997; hahahaha]

Seriously, we have been having incredible, insurmountable problems getting and staying online anytime after noon, soooooooo if I don't show up, THAT will be why. Believe me, I'll be trying! In view of that unfortunate possibility, I think I'll post this NOW:

This is just for fun--no points; no author initials; just a little trivia test to see if you all have been paying attention!

1—Lucia’s favorite dish.

2—How did Lucia happen to move to London?

3—Georgie’s hobby.

4—Miss Mapp’s best boyfriend.

5—Lucia’s real name.

6—Tilling’s self-appointed resident artist.

7—Risholme’s society leader wannabe.

8—Tillings’ favorite indoor sport.

Oh I know some of them - I think?
1. Lobster a la Riseholme
2. Peppino's Aunt died and left them the London house
4. Major Benjie
6. quaint Irene
7. Daisy
8. a rubber of Bridge?

Happy Birthday Dear One Jeryn

My Gray Lawn with the pleated summer weight, wool crepe skirt will go wonderfully with my purple wide brimed hat. Oh yes, and gray silk stockings with my gray strap shoes. Shall I or not bring a purse. I really do not have a gray purse. The Navy or the Black - Oh, I think none at all. I will just tuck a linen hanky inside the wristband of my dress. Earrings, Earrings, oh yes, the Amethyst with my mother's amethyst lavaliere.

I do hope everyone is still available. I will never know, my e-mail is off for some reason since yesterday. Netscape tells me I can send but not recieve. Everyone has e-mail now and we do not have to shout into those old black telephones. I do miss speaking to the operator though and listening in on the party line to the latest gossip - Oh well, at Mapp's Tea there ought be lots of gossip - Mapp knows just what everyone is up to.

Yes, I am talking to myself again - that is what happens when I am rushed and my e-mail provider is shut down (I have an inspection at 3:30 that will last till at least 5:30 so I will log on tonight) Au resevoir till...

Well done, Barbara! Someone try for #3 and 5 now.

Ah yes, what to wear... I thought I'd wear my long sleeved dusty aqua print ankle-length silk with the ivory portrait collar and the wide matching belt. Perhaps my carved ivory brooch would be nice on the front? Or I could wear those little earrings of ivory, shaped like itty bitty fans. Yes, and a gold necklace instead of the brooch. I have some ivory-colored dainty leather gloves with a lace insert. Would these be too too for summer, I wonder? And ivory hose, I think with those ivory-taupe spectator pumps.

Everyone who comes in here today can describe their hightum outfits!

Oh, Jeryn, I do hope your browser permits you to be with us this afternoon. Can't you call them and explain it's your birthday? I mean they must have a priority list! Try it!

Fun trivia...didn't Georgie like to do needlework? Embroider? But goodness, what is Lucia's name? I'd cheat and look it up if I could only find my book! They are all missing! All the Benson! How can that be? Bruce? Has he become a Luciaphile???? Let's see...she's Mrs. Lucas - with an impossible first name...like Clementine. Hmm.

I'm early, I know. It's so delicious to arrive early at Mapp's and poke around, while she dresses. What is this bottle of <ahref="http://www.medianet.ca/curioso/bovril/bovril.htm">bovril under the settee in the garden room?

Was Irene invited to this celebration, I wonder? I looove Irene, but no, I don't think she'd ever dress for hightum.

She'd like the clash of my rose madder stole over lavendar! A bit avant for this crowd though! And I will not, simply will not wear hose in the summer! Oh dear, you don't suppose the Queen will pop in, do you? Everyone will probably whisper about me - ah well, if it gets too bad, I'll slip out and visit with Irene!

I will wait till Jeryn gets here though! Must wish her "Happy Birthday!

Excuse me? I just thought I'd poke my head in and.....oh, hello. I found this lavendar glove outside in the hall...with...pearl ...buttons. Uh, I, uh, guess I'll just leave it here on....the table. That's a very nice.....hat...you have on. Well, uh, goodbye.

Aagh! Don't go 'way, readerdoc!

I can't believe I'm here! The page is only half loaded so I may not get this posted but had to say HI and thanks Joan! Got your card too! Ewww, best birthday I ever had! In case I don't make it back, thanks thanks thanks!

Where's Ginny! Can't wait to see what she's wearing!

Do I or do I not look scrumptuous? Hightum, indeed!!

Just a little thing the seamstress threw together for me, and I didn't need any curtains, Diva Plaistow! What a fine crowd assembled, I do hope we can have at least one rubber of bridge if we can get everybody in from the clock golf in time.

EMMELINE LUCAS, how delicious, a TRIVIA QUIZ!! And ....but....whose lavender glove has been found?? Is it Lady Ambemere's? Where is Pug?? Could he be the culprit??

I doubt anyone will look smarter than I do even tho Carruthers lost my frock.

Have some of Grandmama Mapp's raspberry fool and a bickie and a cup of tea, being careful of the hand painted periwinkles on the Royal Doulton whilst I look up the po di mu for today: "I Danced with the Man Who Danced With the Girl Who Danced With the Prince of Wales," I really do have my heart set on it, for some reason it's not readily available, and I must find it along with the recipe for the fool.

No cheating at bridge, now, but WHERE is MAPP????

By the Bye, a Splendid Birthday, Jeryn Old Girl, you don't look half that old!!

Daisy

So sorry, I'm late... and I didn't have time to dress, and I forgot my gloves, but my, doesn't Ginny look nice.

#3 Georgie's hobby ... painting.

Not to worry, Mapp will show, I hope.

I hope she's not sulking as is her wont. Trumped on the smashing attire front, don't you know??

Daisy

As you know, here in Tilling we consider it vain not to share recipts of our comestibles, and so, in answer to the veritable WAVE of demand, here is Cook's Recipe for FOUR Versions of Raspberry Fool, famous recipe of Grandmama Mapp

(With many thanks to Kay Douglass of the Benson List Serve, for her great helpfulness. They are a wonder)

p.s.  A nice recipe site is at  
http://www.ichef.com/index.html 

--------------------------------------------------------------------- 

Strawberry or Raspberry Fool 

1 pint stawberries or raspberries 
1 tbs orange juice 
3/4 cup sugar 
2 cups heavy cream 

Combine fruit with orange juice and sugar in a saucepan and 
simmer over low 
heat, stirring occasionally, until soft.  Allow to cool. 
Press through a 
fine sieve and chill.  Just before serving combine mixture 
with whipped 
cream in a glass bowl.  Serves 4. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

Raspberry Fool 

1/4 cup raspberry flavor liqueur 
1 container (12-oz) dry pack frozen whole raspberries thawed 
2 cups heavy cream 
1/4 cup sugar 
Chocolate cookies 

In a small bowl, stir liqueur into raspberries. In large 
bowl with electric mixer at high, beat cream and sugar 
until stiff peaks form. Fold in raspberries and liquid. 

Spoon into 6 stemmed dessert glasses. Chill until serving 
time. Serve with cookies. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

RASPBERRY FOOL 

You Will Need: (For 4 servings) 

200g (7oz) raspberries 
40g (1.5 oz) icing sugar (confectioner's) 
2 tbsp cherry brandy 
3 tsp powdered gelatine 
125ml (4fl oz) double cream (heavy cream) 
2 egg whites 
Preparation: 

Reserve 4 raspberries for decoration and put remainder in a 
food processor. 
Add icing sugar and blend to a puree.  Sieve to remove 
seeds. 

Mix cherry brandy with 1 tbsp cold water.  Sprinkle gelatine 
on top.  Put 
bowl over pan of hot water and stir until gelatine 
dissolves.  Stir into 
puree. 

Whisk cream until it forms soft peaks.  Fold into puree. 
Chill for 5-10 
minutes until mixture thickens. 
Whisk egg whites until stiff and fold into puree. 

Spoon mixture into individual dishes.  Chill for about 1 hr 
until set. 
Decorate and serve. 

-------------------------------------------------------------- 

RASPBERRY FOOL 

 Yield: 2 servings 

      2 c  Pureed raspberries,sweetened 
           To taste 
      1 tb Kirsch or rum 
      1 c  Heavy cream, whipped 

  Combine fruit and kirsch and fold into the whipped cream. 
Chill well. 
  Other berries or fruits may be substituted for the 
raspberries. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

Daisy

I most certainly forgot... But I see you have started without me... but then I was so busy trying to find my white dimity with the eyelet collar. And there it was right to the left of the powder blue linen.

I can see Ginny has gone to a good bit of research to find Grandmama's Raspberry Fool.. They aren't quite the same, but the first one comes the closest.

Thank you for the tea, and hope that Jeryn, Joan, and Barbara, Readerdoc, and Ginny will come back in and join me for tea.

It is such an honor to have you reading my book.. And the Major was especially pleased that you mentioned him in your darling little quiz..

Ta Ta

Well, I tried all afternoon to come back but my Internet just gets constipated or something during the "rush hours" or is SN about to crash again or WHAT! Getting real irritating. Had, of course, to go out and get wined and dined this evening. Now everything seems to be running again but I guess the party's over? Well. Well, you all looked just lovely and it's so nice to have these celebrities drop in! Will we ever find out who the lavender glove belongs to? Nothing like a nice little mystery!

Between 3 or 4 of you, I think all the trivia got answered. Here's the whole thing, if anyone missed it.

1—Lucia’s favorite dish.

2—How did Lucia happen to move to London?

3—Georgie’s hobby.

4—Miss Mapp’s best boyfriend.

5—Lucia’s real name.

6—Tilling’s self-appointed resident artist.

7—Risholme’s society leader wannabe.

8—Tillings’ favorite indoor sport.

---

1—Lobster a la Risholme

2—Peppino’s aunt died and left him a house.

3—Needlework

4—Major Benjy

5—Emmaline Lucas

6—“Quaint” Irene

7—Daisy Quantock

8—Bridge

Loved the Rasberry "fool" recipes which prompted me to look in my copy of "Joy of Cooking" and sure enough recipes for fruit fool with - get this, I love it - a definition for "fool". Long ago the word "fool" was used as a term of endearment. We have an old-fashioned fondness for a recipe in which fruit is combined with cream - thus "fool".

In the nicest way then, I can say we are all "fools" in this discussion - I just love the conbination of SeniorNet posters and Benson's Miss Mapp.

Yes, SN did crash tho no posts were lost, I guess the crowd trying to get IN to Jeryn's/ Mapp's party proved too much!! I thought maybe everyone had gone away, a la Lucia's party and now were drifting back. I myself am haunted by the Spirit of the Lost Song and determined to post the midi for it if at all possible, it's a little older, but still within the purview of the Lucia series: "I Danced With the Man Who Danced With the Girl Who Danced With the Prince of Wales." Can't get it out of my head, but you know what else I found while frantically searching for the frocks Jim found? A whole site where you can BUY 20's clothing: the originals and they ARE gorgeous. A tad on the small side (has one of us grown?) but all gorgeous.

Jeryn, I hope you had a marvelous birthday, sounds like your family started the day off right and hope we added a bit as well, you are a special person!!

Barb,I love that, an example of how words take on different meanings, neato!! Thanks!

Your email is strange, but will keep trying. Wanted to call you on the phone, realized I had no clue, will persevere with email.

---

Now this morning we begin what was supposed to be the third book in the Lucia saga, but here we have no Lucia, no Georgie, no Peppino, no Olga, just a whole new town: Tilling on Sea (Rye, England) and a whole new set of characters. I see our Joan P already likes Irene (correctly pronounced Irenie) or Quaint Irene. I was interested, by the way, to see the Benson List Serve getting up a party and going to have palm readings, you scan your palm and email it to whoever and they do palm readings!! Isn't that something?? Maybe we can copy some of their more creative ideas (and they have plenty) the next time we do one, also.

ANYWAY, here, in these first 50 or so pages, I'd like to know what you thought of the abrupt change of scene and characters?? We have the "climbing" Mrs. Poppit, MBE, and the picturesque town of Tilling on page 29, and the Major and Captain Puffin, etc.

Benson did not intend Mapp to be a sympathetic figure, quite the contrary. What's your first impression of her tho?

See the illustrations above for the card showing Mapp's house Mallards (Benson's own house Lamb House) and the 90 degree right angle of the "Garden Room" which was destroyed in WWII.

I'll look up the correct poem which was usually on the pottery pigs of Rye, you can still buy them there, tho the shopkeeper across from the Church is not "up" on her TV production of Mapp and can't direct you to the street where the film was shot, as they had to use a different location for the tv Mallards.

You talk about COBBLEstones, those are the real things, huge round things, break your leg!

One thing that has broken the calm waters of Tilling society in these first 50 pages is the decoration of Mrs. Poppit, MBE and how the Queen said "So pleased," and what a world of meaning she put in those three words. And here's a reference to the Prince of Wales, tho I think it must be the OTHER Prince of Wales and not Edward VIII to whom the song refers, which Prince WAS this? And we see Mapp not too enchanted with Mrs. Poppit being decorated, and not wanting to hear it at all. hahaahahaaa

Have you ever thought about what a world those Royals live in? It's amazing how people glom on their every "so pleased." I guess every person wants their 15 seconds of shine time, but it restricts the people having to live it terribly, I would think.

They had a A&E Biography the other night about Princess Diana which I watched and was stunned all over again by what a beauty she was then and how sad she looked, almost from the beginning. I guess they have to become what people think they are, have to wear the mask, at least in public. It's funny what "masks" people put ON us, what they expect from us although we may be someone quite different underneath? That's one thing I really like about our boards here, we can really be ourselves, and I like that, with no preconceived notions getting in the way.

Why would Benson, I wonder, change a perfectly good series to another town and set of characters??

Ginny

Anyway, here are two URLs stolen from the Photo Retrospective at the top in the heading:

Here is Mallards as it WAS: Mallards Then

and the cobble stone streets, and I THINK, but don't hold me to it, the brick house visible at the top of the street IS Mallards, (Lamb House) so you can get a view of it coming and going, as it were: Cobbletone Streets

And Jeryn, what a nifty Trivia Quiz, you're getting quite good at these things, maybe we should get one up about the participants coming to Chicago!! hahahahahaaa

Notice how many are really "up" on their Benson, too, and who answered!!

...jane and Readerdoc, how marvelous to see you here, do pull up a Benson and join right in!!

Ginny

I want a Tilling pig! Now!!!

And if I could only get my scanner working, I would submit to a palm reading!

No, Mapp (she hates Irenie calling her that, so I will do it all the time!)...no, Mapp is certainly not a sympathetic character! At least we know from the early pages, that she is never going to get away with anything at all - just as Lucia will always salvage impossible situations and certain disasters! Perhaps this is why she remains Miss Mapp? She is a meanie, though...as well as a busy body! We have one like that in our neighborhood. I try to steer clear of her, but it is really difficult - and probably more so in little Tilling.

Will love to see both Lucia and Mapp in the same story. Are these situations more delicious, because we know the outcome, but enjoy seeing just how it will be achieved?
The business of the "worsted of rose-madder hue" has yet to be resolved. Benson has repeated the color several times, which sent me to my American Heritage (love it!)...to find that madder is southwest Asian perennial- small yellow flowers and red roots... the roots are used for dye, the color is "a medium to strong red or red-orange. It should be easy to spot Mrs. Plaistow from Mapp's window - "popping" in and out of High Street shops wearing the thing in one form or another.

I love the way they all "don't see" what they don't want to, but then act upon what they haven't seen in such impulsively extreme ways.

Loved the way the whole town showed up to view the Prince of Wales...note that Irenie had even got herself into a civilized skirt for the occasion!

First of all, big juicy hugs and thank yous to EVERYONE who wished me well yesterday, for my 65th birthday! You know, it's your fault, Ginny! I would have never mentioned it if you hadn't up and planned a party for July 15!! The coincidence was just Too Much to Resist!!!

On to the Mapp! Yessss, may we call a spade a spade and say that Benson has created a first rate, a-number one B---H in Miss Mapp! And is there method in his madness? You bet! He needed a worthy adversary for his Lady Luck Lucia!! Life in Tilling just keeps getting more and more interesting with each incident.

Ginny or anyone: do we know [I forgot to look on the boxes] where those tapes were filmed? NOT the places you are showing us, I take it...

YES!!! Yes, Jeryn, the tapes were filmed in Rye (Tilling on Sea) and the tours there by the Benson Society not only take you to the actual sites ("Mallards:" the real one, Lamb House, shown in the first of the two illustrations which I put up today where not only Benson lived but also Henry James and Rumer Godden), and the "tv" "Mallards," which was chosen as the rooms at Lamb House were thought a little close for all the cameras, not to mention it's a National Trust property.

So yes, all filming was done in Rye. Pretty, isn't it??

There are some cute stories about the actors, etc., will try to find some. It must be near Benson's Birthday, the Benson List Serve is gearing up, do we have any palm readers in our midst??

Joan, didn't you love the dresses thing, the madder, the Kingfisher blue? As a Wal Mart junkie, it's amazing to contemplate a time when you had all your clothes made, love the scenes in the...but I'm getting ahead of myself here, will go find what Benson himself thought when he created Mapp and return.

Ginny

Me, again! It seems another birthday party is in order, one for EF Benson himself, who was born on July 24, 1867, to a marriage in crisis: his father, Edward, soon to be the Archbishop of Canterbury, was a driven man, a perfectionist, and his mother, Mary (referred affectionately as MOTHER BENJY!!!) was a happy cheerful gay jolly woman completely at odds with her husband with his never satisfied, depressed personality. He felt that "Toil was God's gift." He was "capable of sinking morosely into gloom and silence, locking himself in his study for days, refusing food or attention, until he emerged, cleansed and renewed, to continue the struggle."

These quotes are all today from The Life of EF Benson by Brian Masters, considered the definitive biography of Benson.

Mary was "effervescent, cheerful, liable to burst out laughing at something all too solemn, very fond of the ludicrous in life. She was completely at odds with Edward, although in the manner of the time and their class, she strove mightily to be worthy of him and make herself more serious in line with his earnest requirements. She nearly always failed."

She apparently had formed an attachment with one Emily Edwardes and that the "joy she experienced in the company of female friends far outshone the dull, wnwilling respect she harboured for" her husband. Little wonder.

None of the Benson children ever married. All were artistic, and highly educated. Maggie, Fred's sister, was hospitalized for mental illness. AC (Arthur) Fred's brother the family "success," was a Don at Magdalen but suffered from manic depression. A strange, very artistic, and troubled family and yet Fred's humor and kindness show through his books.

"Fred openly admitted that he set the novel in his new home town of Rye and had Miss Mapp watch the world from the bow window of her garden room, at right angels to her house with an untrammelled view down the street before her. This is Lamb House and that is Fred's window. 'As an external observer I had seen the ladies of Rye doing their shopping in the High Street every morning, carrying large market baskets, and bumping into each other in narrow dorways, and talking in a very animated manner'...Benson was too tactful a man to suggest there was anyone in Rye remotely like Miss Mapp or the other characters, though he did let slip to Compton Mackenzie what there were some extraordinary women in Rye."

In a letter to George Plank, Benson was less guarded about Rye and its inhabitants:

"Just now all the ladies of Rye are sitting in the streets painting the church as there is a local picture-exhibition in a few weeks. It is curious how differently the church strikes them. In some sketches which I see as I pass by the rows of easels, a towering edifice pierces the sky (you would thnk the angels could step on it without flying); in others it crouches among the red-roofed houses. A favourite observation point is the step of Lamb House; when there are so many artists collected there, so that I can't get out, I play the gufues of Bach on my piano, and then they go away." (SOUND FAMILIAR??) (for an actual VIEW from the church tower, see the Photo Retrospective in the heading).

In creating Miss Mapp, Benson said, "I outlined an elderly atrocious spinster and established her in Lamb House. She should be the centre of social life, abhorred and dominant, and she should sit like a great spider behind the curtains in the garden-room, spying on her friends...Of course it would all be small beer, but one could get a head upon it of jealousies and malignities and devouring inquisitiveness."

That's what Benson intended, is THAT your opinion of Mapp?? And if not, what do you suppose happened??

Ginny

How perfect to have Benson's character assessment of Mapp. It still always amazes me how closly all artists use the fragments of their lives to display their talent. I always thought Georga O'Keefe had some inner fantasy in order to paint her mountains till I was driving thru the Sierra's and Flats of far west Texas at dawn and there they were. All the mountains deeply shadowed and holding the night while the rising sunlight painted them pink and rose and a blinding pale yellow, looking like they were wearing the many layered petticoats of a Mexican dancer.

What is more amazing is to try and imagine a 40 year old woman that looks her age and then some, fixating on the possible pluckings of her garden and fantasizing about the morning ablution of two mature men.

Say what you will about the "spider-lady" of Tilling, she had good teeth! Don't you love the way she pastes that huge fake smile on her face whenever she's trying to hide her true feelings? All the way back to her wisdom teeth! HAHAHAHA! I can just picture her!

Jeryn: Happy BIrthday. I rushed right over, so I wouldn't be late, though it took forever for my maid to iron my organdy frock, all those tiny pleats, but doesn't it look good with my white hat and the veil with all those embroidered violets. But Jeryn, you're not dressed. Where is everybody? I was afraid that I would be late, but . . . (No more fool? No Fairy Cakes?)

I really don't see Miss Mapp as awful as Benson had intended her. In our small town, that is described as "half the people are sitting around waiting for the undertaker", we have several window peekers. And I often wish I could go by and stick out my tongue, but I haven't yet.

But what else has the poor soul to do except get her enjoyment from spying on and prying into and disrupting those lives around her.. I sure hope Withers gets paid what she puts up with.

And that 'pasted' smile. The tapes really show it great.

Still can't imagine what the Major sees in Mapp, but he does put up with a lot especially when she's his bridge partner.

Yi, Jackie! A day late... two days late for the party! Love your dress, anyway. I'm back in my t-shirt and shorts, so sorry! <BG>

This first book about Miss Mapp really sets the tone. One is meant to despise her; don't you really feel that? A petty little mind; a spinster and a nosy one at that; not most people's idea of someone they'd want for a friend.

Oy, I am so sleepy. These late hours are getting me down but it's the only time I can get the Internet to work lately. <Yawn> I'm not a morning person but I guess I'm not much of a night person either.

Diva and I wore our original dresses for my party.  She in her purple with the chintz roses and me in mine with the poppies.  (Recycling was alive and well many years before they ever thought of it in the US.)

But the party was not the success I had hope.  THAT Mrs. Poppit getting into my secret hoard for the coal strike.  What a nosey,  looking at my bookcase to see if the books were real.  Seems she had already criticized everything else in the room.  And then the horror of her spilling all the tins and boxes and the dried apricots all over the floor.  I shan't forgive her soon for that.  (Now there must be some way that I can make things even.)

I did say to the Padre that it was for the Christmas needy baskets, but the coal strike will surely be settled by then and if there is a bit left, I can share a little with the poor.

Au Reservoir!

Mapp - how very generous of you!

Sarah: Love it! Perfect riposte.

WELL.... I looked that one up.

And I'll just have to study on that a bit. (BIG GRIN)

Three guesses WHO is masquerading as Mapp!!! Anyone?

Well you can eliminate my name, I've never said BIG GRIN in my life!!

Drives me crazy, but I love it!

Ginny

Hahahahaha! Thought sure it was you, Ginny!

No, Ma'am, never. You'll never see me with the BIG GRIN or the <VBG> at all!

Ginny

Mapp - you just study on that awhile and then come back and grace us with your wisdom.

Tomorrow is a Red Letter Day for Benson fans, it's EF Benson's Birthday!!

I bet I've had over 100 letters from the List Serve, they're throwing their own fete Online, and have set up booths to do tarot cards, I Ching, and other things. In Benson's honor, will try to put some of the urls in here tomorrow, and we must plan a suitable like small "do" for his honor.

I was thinking that those of us who are going to Chicago or will sometime meet, should have our own little Chapter or meeing of Luciaphiles/ phobes, more on that later.

Will be back tomorrow with hopefully more anecdotes, more quotes and some interesting sites and Bensoniana.

Ginny

The Party's OVER!

Well, for some reason the party's over which was put on by the Benson List Serve but the Sites are still there for your enjoyment, as today is EF Benson's birthday!

So we can start today by saying: Happy Birthday,
EF BENSON!

And giving you a list of interesting URLs prepared by another group of appreciators of Bensoniana: The Benson List Serve: (check out that marvelous crossword puzzle, that "Pug" is a wonder!

---

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Benson's 1999 Birthday Bash on the Web:

The Benson Forum at Delphi (registration password: Tilling)Benson Forum

A short story by E.F. Benson, "Jill's Cat" Short Story

The Social Triumphs Scrapbook (Benson Gatherings) Benson Scrapbook

Transcript of a séance held in Boston, 1929 Seance

The Pride of Poona's Yoga Lesson Yoga

Crossword Puzzle on "Queen Lucia" Fabulous Crossword Puzzle

On-line Ouija Board Ouija Board

Psychic Links Psychic Links

Mrs. Trout's lecture, "Channelling with Chapeaux"

Lecture on Hats

A new painting by Irene Coles, discovered by Blumenfelt New Painting by Irene Coles

An amazing documentary: "Blue Birdie, My Sweet" Blue Birdie

The E. F. Benson Cookbook Benson Cookbook

Items arranged on Mr. Benson's Mantel Benson's Mantel

A few piccies from Taffy's petling tent Benson's Mantel

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/3756/taffyprofile.html

??

The Benson Cyber Séance Benson Cyber Seance

Tiptree's Canine Chapeaux Canine Hats

Part IV (and a recap) of Lord Tony's "Tilling Scandals" Tilling Scandals

The Raspberry Fool is served at Georgie's Raspberry Fool

Cortese's new opera: Akhenaton e Nefertiti nel Giardino segreto Cortese's New Opera

Gatta's url for "The Hampster Dance" page (could it be Hannah the Hampster?)

---

And now, in my own small tribute, I'll just post my favorite ditty in honor of EF, who I think would appreciate it, as his favorite flower was the blue morning glory:

Grandma Got Run Over by a Reindeer

As for me and Grandpa, we believe!

Here's to YOU, EF Benson and your marvelous, fey creations! A TOAST!!

Ginny

Ginny you out-did yourself. Only had time to click on Georgie's Rasberry Fool - hmmm luchious looking - had no idea it was served with a ladle!

Ginny what did Benson write other then the Lucia stories? The clickables you provided may tell me but, but, but, I'm in a hurry today. Au Reservoir

Barb: He wrote over 100 books altogether, including autobiography, scholarly studies of Alcibiades, Queen Victoria, Edward VII and Charlotte Bronte, and biographies of Magellan and Drake. I'll try to find a list somewhere, his output was prodigious.

Au Resevoir!

Ginny

I did a search on hotbot.com for Benson sites as I'm too lazy to type in more than 100 book titles, and LOOK LOOK LOOK what I found under BENSON, EF: on hotbot??

"SeniorNet RoundTables - ---BC Online: Completed but Undying Discussion: Queen Lu You have guest access to browse, login, or register. 24/7 ad Advertisement. Click here for more. RoundTable Index, Chat, Gatherings, Bookstore, Policies (You must be registered and login in order to access the Chat room) Introducing JuniorNet! The new online service for kids http://www.seniornet.org:8080/cgi-bin/WebX?14@@.ee74425/175 seniornet.org"

Nous sommes Arrive, N'est-ce pas?

Ginny

OUI and Whee gotta go - til tonight

Well, I must say, this is certainly a pleasant surprise..

Of course, I owe my very being to E. F. Benson, a dear soul, even though he thought to paint me as a noisy.

A special thanks, to Miss Ginny, for her dedication to the Benson group here at SeniorNet.

Must go look at those interesting places above. Raspberry fool! It really is a very delicious treat.. Miss Poppitt served it the other day; not as good as my grandmama's but did seem good that day at bridge.

From Pug on the EF Benson List Serve, who is contemplating doing a compendium of all the web sites for EF Benson and an Annotated Benson, too.

Marvelous! I think you can see that there are real Benson fans on the web as well as the two Societies!

---

EF BENSON pages

In addition to biographical information, you'll also find info. about Benson books, the Tilling Society, the Benson Society, this e-mail discussion group, and photos taken in Rye/Tilling (check out "Rye Tour" section listed at the bottom of the page). There are photos taken by our Georgie and our Miss Leg on those pages. - And Much More! (Parts are undergoing re-construction now.) Maintained by Amber Tatnall.

Fisherman's Cottage, Tilling-on-Sea, Mrs. Titus W. Trout. Contains a lot of things that originated during the on-line birthday party the group had last summer for Benson. Maintained by Amber Tatnall.

Pug's Place. (This wonderful person is the source of our all our information here). Ditto above - things written (scribblings) for the birthday party - as well as some short stories written since then by list members. Maintained by Kay Douglas.

Robert Ross' pages - our Georgie. Has photos taken in Rye/Tilling, in Broadway/Riseholme, and in London at 50 Brompton Square - as well as photos taken in Rye/Tilling by Paul Bines - and, writings and short stories by list members.

Roger Collier's Photo Album - our Venial Critic. Wonderful photos of Rye/Tilling - many from the church tower.

Lord Tony's Ham pages A lot of things here - just check (even the beginnings of a Tillingopoly game called the Spying Game - as well as a Benson ghost story). Maintained by Morten Sorensen.

Thanks to Amber.

Forum & Chat - Register (can omit a lot of questions asked) Password: Tilling (a lot of reading material there)

---------------------

For photos of Tilling Society members attending their annual gathering (in costume), see the first site - the E.F. Benson Pages (scroll to the bottom of the page and look for "Rye Tour" or something similar - the wording may have been changed. I took the second and third photos of Britt and Bjorn, in costume in 1995 (they're from Norway) - and they took the rest.

In the middle of that page are photos taken by our Georgie (Robert Ross) - and at the bottom are my photos, including the one of the model of the Garden Room that's on display in the Lamb House. Robert also has a photo of the model of the Garden Room on his web site. Nancy

---

Need to get some of these in the heading. MANY thanks, KAY Douglas!

Ginny

Here you go, Barb:

Benson's Works

People sometimes forget that Benson was a classicist and are surprised that the author of the Lucia books could also pen such a scholarly work, for instance, as the Life of Alcibiades, but it was Benson's Charlotte Bronte which allowed him finally to be admitted among those "serious writers" whose productions are meant to endure...After years of being tartly dismissed as a lightweight, he was now the subject of earnest scholarly discussion....His critics had never bothered to look behind the ease and superficiality of his novels to discover the quality of his mind and acuity of his judgment."

Brian Masters, The Life of EF Benson

That Benson site above in the heading is rich stuff for the Bensonophile!

If I may coin a word! hahahahaaa

Ginny

HAPPY BIRTHDAY E.F.BENSON!!! And a big THANK YOU to our Ginny, devoted Bensonite and untiring leader!

Ginny - what will be our reading schedule for Miss Mapp?

Good question, Sarah!

Was just coming in, mindful of a lapse here, to say let's complete the first 100 pages today and tackle the next 69 this week, starting tomorrow: that will bring us to the conclusion of several pivotal events in the book.

I do apologize for not sitting on this one a bit better, have been distracted elsewhere, I fear, so reread the first 100 pages again this morning for a last gasp, you might say, on the opening pages.

To begin with, I see a different style here, do you? It's all narrative. Just as Mapp is a new character, a new town, new people, so the style has changed.

How do you think this book compares to the first two? They were mostly dialogue, you recall, lots of paragraphs, not so this one.

I am not sure if I had begun with this one if I would want to continue the entire series, yet the INCIDENTS are hilarious as is Benson's deft touch with satire and droll sarcastic wit. To wit: on eating the red currant fool, Mapp reflects that it couldn't possibly have any alcohol in it....yet...as her guess was that the recipe would contain yolk of egg, "a pleasant exhilaration in Miss Mapp; but yolk of egg, as everybody knew, was a stong stimulant." I love his droll dry wit.

He lets the reader in on the game, exposing the players for their little foibles, the Omniscient Narrator, I guess, is the person the narration assumes?

As usual I have a million thoughts on this section.

We have here little "power struggles," which seem petty and laughable until you see them everywhere around you. I wonder if here Benson is remarking on the private lives of all of us. The ruthless competitors at bridge, the struggle over the poppies and the roses with lattice dress (it WASN'T very nice of Miss Mapp to try to steal a match on Diva, was it?) and Diva's revenge, the whole place seethes with intrigue.

The Visit of the Prince of Wales was hilarious. Don't you find, yourself, in real life, that the more you try to appear indifferent to some great happening the more chance you have of making a fool of yourself? Always happens to me.

And the jealousy over the MBE and Miss Mapp's scathing letter to the King, and her careful checking over the List of Honors in the paper to see if she needed to send it! Priceless!!!! I have, myself, actually dieted in anticipation of a phone call which never came, and I can truly say from experience, that scene was right on!

To me all the little power struggles are true to life, I have witnessed them in other situations and here on SeniorNet, too, they're just as funny in real life as they are on paper.

Is there any scene at all which you find unbelievable so far? Do the character seem real?

I have, as always, quite a list of things I didn't catch: spoonerisms by Isabel (p. 17) What are they? I know what a malapropism is. What is a "wide awake hat," (p.26)?? What is Kingfisher blue??

Why would Benson think we might expect Mapp to be thin? (p.20). Are all nasty people thin? (She said hopefully?)

What's a florin (p.76)?? I get guineas confused, too?

I am delighted to read that the Benson List serve, because of an idea by Kay Douglas, is going to undertake an Annotated Benson and an index to all the sites connected, an idea long overdue.

Were you a little struck by Diva's getting back at Mapp by giving the dress to her maid and her maid thinking that was a fine comeuppance? Definite class thing going on here, did it surprise you?

And how about the "So pleased!" and all the Queen conveyed with that remark! What a hoot!! So is it with all public figures, makes you wonder what awful lives they have, if their every word is hung on so.

If this is Queen Mary, I was under the understanding that she barely spoke English, being German. Do any of you have any knowledge of this area?? Or is this another queen? The time frame is right after WWI, and I was thinking THIS Prince of Wales was Albert not Edward VIII. Somebody straighten me out here.

Still looking for the original verse common to the pottery pigs of Rye!

Ginny

Cheerio, fellow Bensonites, I'm taking MAPP & CO with me on my flight to Seattle tomorrow morning, let's look at pages 101-200 next week? See you all Wednesday!

Where ARE you all?

Ginny

Ginny - maybe we can make the reading schedule a bit more relaxed? I started Miss Mapp last night and it IS a slower read than Queen Lucia (although no less entertaining).

I only got through a few pages in that sitting.

You'll be missed; have a wonderful time in Seattle!

I am here! I am here!! I read this book 3 months ago and it's gone back to the library but I'm loving to lurk here anyway. I cannot remember that Miss Mapp was such a change of pace except for the whole new setting and characters. Lucia gets into the story later, I believe?

Spoonerisms: the transposition of initial or other sounds of words, usually by accident as in "our queer old dean" for "our dear old queen."

There is a spoonerism (supposedly) that takes place at the first bridge party that I just didn't GET. Did you? It has to do with Miss Mapp denying that her Grandmamma is responsible for the red-currant fool with champagne in it.

I'm loving this book as much as Lucia in London. Only I have to say that I don't like Miss Mapp. I did like Lucia. Miss Mapp's intrigues are so deliberately MEAN. Lucia, on the other hand, seemed only to be trying to make herself look good, without causing others pain.

Maybe I'm being too charitable to Lucia, but Miss Mapp is just vicious. Her deliberate attempt to make it seem as if Diva stole Mapp's idea to put curtain appliques on a dress - MEAN!

Her holding back in committing to the bridge game until she was sure that by attending (or not attending) she'd cause the number of guests to be an inconvenient number. Why do such a thing?

Get a life, I want to shout! Meet someone! Have some fun! Stop spying on everyone! Egad, is this what it's like to live in a small town?

I also enjoy very much seeing Miss Mapp get her comeuppances:

Diva thwarting Mapp's plan to steal the appliqued dress idea by giving hers to her maid.

The revelation of Mapp's hoarding at her bridge game (the reservoir about to pop) after she scolds Diva (or is it the Poppits) for hoarding coal.

I'm also loving how idiotic Mapp looks for intimating that Puffin and Flint are fighting over her! Now WE know they could care less about her!

It's amazing how much animus Benson creates in me for silly Miss Mapp.

I'm currently listening to Lucia's Progress; here Mapp is married to Flint calling herself Elizabeth Mapp-Flint. Sarah, you're right - she's a pain and terribly critical. As for the mores of a small town - I grew up in one here in NH - among the ladies of the town (my scholarly mother and her sisters) there was definitely much gossipy chit chat about inconsequential matters. I distinctly recall a to-do over one Nancy Green who returned to Newport a "grass widow" - grew up positive that poor Ms. Green's supposed husband met his demise somehow or other in the grass, and it wasn't until years later that I learned that Mr. Green had divorced Mrs. Green.

Oh gosh - Miss Mapp marries Flint? Oh no! I'm so disappointed in him.

Maida, it's so great to "see" you again. I've missed you. I love your story about the "grass widow."

Mapp marrying Flint can't be all bad... He really needs someone to push him around, and they seem to make fair bridge partners. I wonder where Mapp is? She should be here defending herself.

Yep, and EM-F calls him her "Benjii Boy" - some funny stuff about all of Tilling being convinced that Elizabeth is pregnant because she has let out her old green skirt. How on earth did Lucia and Mapp ever survive an ordeal stranded on a kitchen table during a flood? They'd kill one another with words.

I suspect Mapp is visiting Seattle right now! hehehe

Colors: Rose madder, crimson lake, kingfisher blue. What are these??? In my field guide, a kingfisher is sort of a drab blue. I have to believe, given all the fuss Mapp made about her dress, that it was a very vivid blue jay blue.

Where do these color names come from? Are any of you painters? Are they water colors, perhaps (I don't think they're oils).

I'm getting toward the end of this book. Ginny, I need you to come back and pose those questions you're always so GREAT with!!!

Oh Maida - that is hysterical about the green skirt. Not sure if that occurs in Miss Mapp or in a later book. Is the green skirt a special green - parrot green, perhaps?

It occurs AFTER she has married Flint, I hope! <BG>

Rose madder and crimson lake were indeed present among my tubes of oil paint, back when I did oil painting ['bout a hundred years ago]. Crimson lake is sort of a cranberry red; rose madder is lighter and more like magenta, I think--didn't use it much but do remember the name.

I'm baaaack and loved all your posts, wonderful points, All! But now I need to know what pages you want to cover here, are we all up to page 200 or is there some hint that we need to slow down?

I'll be back in tomorrow but till then please indicate where you would like to be in the book?

Sarah, thanks so much for the spoonerism thing, want to go back and see if EF was pulling our legs there, I, too, don't remember unless it was that Napp stuff, back tomorrow with piggies verse for the Tilling Pottery Piggies.

Ginny

Jeryn, thanks for the crimson lake, I had wondered what on earth that was. Kingfishers are not blue, are they?? I thought they were black and white. Wonder where the names of these colors come from?

The Benson List Serve has been toying with the idea of producing Annotated Benson volumes, wouldn't that be nice?

Ginny

Ginny, I finished the book, so I'm up for discussing any part of it.

My favorite line from the book - so perfectly embodying Miss Mapp:

"It was very inconvenient that honesty should be the best policy." (p. 480 of my volume)

Aren't kingfishers sort of a slate blue? Trimmed in black and white? I've got a bird book but it's downstairs...

LOVED that oh so typical quote, SarahT!

Back on track, I hope!~ Have altered the heading to cover the first 200 pages for this week, and hope you'll have lots to say on this section.

Firstly, the "spoonerism" seems a spooner-like joke to me, can't see it too well in "Grandmamma Napp?" Is Benson pulling our leg here? Where's the N coming from?? According to the above definition by Sarah (I found also that it's named for the Reverend W.A. Spooner, 1844-1930: would love to know that story) an example is "well boiled icicle for well oiled bicycle." (Webster's) I don't see any N??

Likewise can't find anywhere, even on Alta Vista, (just saw a comparison of search engines and Alta Vista beats all but one indexing the web) can't find a thing on "The roseate morn hath passed away." Will write Charlie, he's very into music, and see if he can find a reference, I consulted the Anglican hymnal of old and an old Baptist hymnal with no result.

More addenda before the meat!

1. The pottery piggies of Sussex, the multi colored "sweet little piggies," collected by Miss Mapp, were "money boxes, and similar piggy-banks can usually be found in Rye, however the original Rye pig was a combined jug and mug whose head came off, and Rye Pottery still make a small version on sale at Rye Tiles in Wish Ward and gift shops such as Merrythought by the church, along with the piggy banks." (The Tilling Society Newsletter).

The verse quoted by Benson is:

I won't be druv
Though I am willing,
Good Morning, my love,
Said the Pig of Tilling.


But the traditional verse in Sussex reads:

And you can pook
And you can shove
But a Sussex pig
He won't be druv.


Interesting. Doesn't that remind you of the style nursery rhyme, with the pig which wouldn't go over a style? Sussex is full of styles, have a photo somewhere with me on one, those travelling with me could NOT understand my hysteria over it, will put it up.

---

So much more.

What did you think of the writing in this section? I loved the flight to the train station, the flapping of coat and suitcase (what IS a portmanteau?) the approach of "Some early traveller, like himself, was afraid of missing the train." (page 135). Loved it, what a hoot.

One of my favorite passages in the book is the Padre, struggling with Christian ethics, having to go out and intercept, so he believed, the duelists? NOT down to Church expenses? Should he in fact, stick UP his head, he might be killed? I just loved that part, it's magic. You can tell Benson is the child of a clergyman, he's got that part perfectly. And in the end, the Padre is true to his Christian principles, even tho he forgets his accent. Love it, just loved it.

Benson's books are full of illusions to things long lost, like the "Royce" business, for instance, more tomorrow on why it was called that, and here's another one:

"The birthday of her life had come, as Miss Rosetti said." (p. 114).

HAH? Who?? What??

How about the Mendelssohn reference? "There might be songs without words as Mendelssohn had proved...." (p. 106).

This is an highly educated man writing easily about references and things that occur to him as he writes which are pretty much lost to view today. The entire book is one reference after another to people and things long gone, yet, except for the word "frock," which I fear, does date it a bit, it's as fresh today as modern writing. Think, for instance, of Sinclair Lewis, writing at about the same time. His books are dated by his use of language, and that's something a reader has to hurdle over to get to the emotions, but Benson, except for this word "frock," is as fresh as a penny to me.

It occurs to me that it's because he's writing about emotions and motivations and small petty challenges which none of us are immune to.

The character of Mr. Wyse totally intrigues me. Here's a man, through no effort (or IS there) of his own has a tremendous dampening effect on the whole town. When HE'S there nobody squabbles as they hope to make an impression on him, when he's NOT there sometimes it's a relief. What IS this hold he's got on them, why do they want to impress him and do you know anybody in a like situation today?

When the Preacher comes, for instance, to lunch, does behavior change at the table?

I think this book is about one upmanship and a struggle to belong and fit in and, yes, dominate. Benson is making it pretty clear who the Queen Bee is in Tilling, and she's a formidable foe at that, not the nicest person on earth, and totally determined to dominate?

So can you IMAGINE what happens when Lucia moves to town in Book IV??

How does this book compare, in your opinion, with the first two??

More tomorrow on Mr. Wyse, the Royce, Miss Mapp and the tram to the golf links.

Sorry to be so remiss, do chime in!

Ginny

And you can poke
And you can shove
But a Yorkshire pig
He won't be druv.

This is the verse inside a Yorkshire Boar Sale Catalog.
And I loaded enough of them to know, they won't be druv.
We raised Yorks for 20 years.

I think I shall have to have a pottery pig from Rye.

E. Mapp is definitely a must in the community.  Someone
needs to keep tabs on everyone and let them know when
they're out of step.

Pat!! How fascinating, a verse also about the Yorkshire, then how do they show them? If you can't drive them, why not? How much do they weigh? How interesting! Yes, YOU must have a Tilling Pig! Me, too!

Here, probably, is more than anybody ever wanted to know about the history of the Yorkshire Pig, pigs in general, and the development of the Yorkshire breed. I put it here because it's fascinating, Pat will enjoy it anyway!

It is believed that the majority of the breeds we now know are descended from the Eurasian Wild Boar (Sus scrofa). Archaeological evidence from the Middle East indicates domestication of the pig occurs as early as 9,000 years ago, with some evidence for domestication even earlier in China. Figurines, as well as bones, dating to the sixth and seventh millennia BC have been found at sites in the Middle East. Pigs were also a popular subject for statuettes in ancient Persia. From here the pig spread across Asia, Europe and Africa. One interesting point, while most livestock where utilized initially by nomadic peoples, swine are more indicative of a settled farming community. The reason for this is simply because pigs are difficult to herd and move for long distances. Pigs have become vital to the economy in parts of the world. For example, there exists a "pig culture" in New Guinea as strong and complex as any African culture based on cattle.

Oklahoma State University Board of Regents.






Yorkshire Pigs

There have been many shapes, sizes, colors and varieties of the Sus scrofa. The largest of the pig family would be the hippopotamus. Many had four toes and a fifth somewhat like a big toe. Two hoofs have replaced two of the toes plus two "dewclaws" have evolved.

Some believe that pigs were the earliest animal to be domesticated, not the cat or dog. Paintings and carvings of pigs over 25,000 years ago have been found. The Chinese domesticated pigs 7,000 years ago. When William the Conqueror ascended the thrown in England in 1066 he decreed that anyone shooting a wild boar would be punished with the loss of their eyes. Hogs have been condemned and idolized throughout history and the Bible. They have also been one of Agriculture's best income sources, but best of all a very good source of protein.

The story of the Yorkshire is the story of England. All through the early times, the fortunes of the hog was bound up with the forests of England. In those days, over vast areas, stood forests of oak and beech. From them came the timbers to build the ship that made England a great maritime power. From the forest of Hampshire came the timbers to build that Mayflower which carried the Pilgrim Fathers to New England. And what a wonderful storehouse of feeding stuffs in acorn and beech mast. There was enough, and more than enough, to fatten all the hogs for the killing season, which in those days was late Autumn and early Winter.

By the beginning of the 16th Century hogs had become much more numerous. In towns the hog owners kept their hogs in sties and tended to their stock themselves. No longer did the swine herd lead them forth to feed abroad in the woods. In some towns it was the custom to clean out the sties once a week. since on Saturdays the hogs were allowed to run about the streets from noon ill evening. At times they must have been a bit of a nuisance, for King Henry VIII ordered all the inhabitants of Wimbledon to ring and yoke their hogs before the feast of St. Martin under penalty of 12 pence per hog, a stiff fine in those days. It seems appropriate that those hogs should have been in China, for the origin of roast pork, according to the legend, is of that land.

Long, long ago, a poor Chinese peasant one day returned home to find his bamboo house burned down. All that remained was a heap of glowing embers, and his hog, his cherished hog that was to have supplied boiled meat for the family, lay here beside the embers. dead and roasted. Without thinking what he was doing he rushed forward, grabbed a leg, and drew it clear. Boy, oh boy! Was it hot! He put his tender fingers to his lips to soothe the pain and found to his surprise a pleasing taste. Could it be that the taste of roasted hog was good, far better than the taste of boiled meat? The flesh was sampled to confirm the fact that it was indeed delectable fare.

In the 1770's a number of the Chinese hogs were brought to England. Sus indicus, which had stayed apart for all those centuries, was now to mingle its blood with that of sus scrofa.

The hardy artisans of the North of England liked their hogs to be large. and they liked the meat to be full flavored and red.

Those Northern Shires became the cradle of the Yorkshires, moulded in the main, and in some strains exclusively from the indigenous English hogs. The early years of the nineteenth century saw the face of the country-side steadily changing. The Georgian enclosures had created a pattern of farms and estates. Lawns were crowing around the cotton mills of Lancashire. and the woolen mills of Yorkshire. The population was increasing, and throughout the Northern Shires the cult of the hog was strong. It was here, in the heart of the industrial belt that the big rugged white hogs found their most ardent supporters.

They set in motion the great institution of the Agricultural Show. Gradually throughout the land, local and county shows became the focal point where livestock breeders could compare their stock with the best in the locality, or in the case of the National Shows with the best in the land. Nowhere in all the Northern Shires was interest in the Showyard greater than in the town of Kneighley in Yorkshire.

By now it was the middle of the nineteenth century, Victorian times. Some twenty years earlier the first railway in the world had been built linking Stockton with Darlington in Yorkshire. Travel became swifter and easier and the great National Show, the "Royal" was able to go on circuit. visiting various pans of the country in turn.

In 1851 Joseph Luley, one of the greatest breeders of his time. showed a team of his hogs in the classes for the Large White Breed. where they immediately attracted wide attention. Now they were more than a breed of local repute, they were a breed of National repute. Luley the weaver linked them forever with Yorkshire, and started them off on a great journey that was to take them to the ends of the earth.

The Yorkshire hogs owed much in those early years to the herd of N. Wainman of Carhead, in the Kneighley district. He chanced to be riding by as a working man was exercising his sow during the mid-day dinner break. Delighted with the glimpse he had, he turned back an bought her there and then on what he described as an "uncontrollable impulse." She went back to Yorkshire, to Kneighly, for she was one of Luley's hogs. and it is through her descendants that some of the entries of the first herd book can be traced back to Luley's hogs. He founded it, great Duchess family at Carhead, and was the dam of Cheimsford Duchess, the first Carhead winner at the "Royal" Show, and one of the first, if not the first Yorkshire to be exported. She was sold to go to France and when put on rail in Yorkshire turned the scales at 1307.

Now the hogs were coming out from the Shire where so many Bakewell's improved Leicestershire hogs had gone. The big white hog of the Northern Shires, of Yorkshire and Lancashire, of Lincolnshire and Leicestershire, had become numerically the largest breed in the land, and were looking to be the largest breed in the world, the Universal Breed

But farther afield they went, to the United States, and to Australia. Exports were now a trickle, but in the years to come grew into a flood. Those breeders knew the ancestry of their hogs and kept their own private records, but as yet there was no Breed Society. By 1883 a move to form a Breed Society, which would keep a central record of pedigrees, was decided upon. They had the good hogs and they now sought to maintain the standard and maintain the purity of their strains. By this time Pedigree had acquired a new and more vital meaning.

In 1865 the monk, Gregor Mendel, had read a paper to the Brunn Society a paper which was published in 1866, in which he expounded his Laws of Inheritance, and illustrated them by his experiments on peas. His attention was not directed to the plant as a whole, but to individual characters, color, shape of seed, etc. He had found two distinct groups of characters, which. he named Dominant and Recessive. He had discovered the existence of what were later to be called "genes".

In 1884 the National Pig Breeder's Association was founded. with Lore Moneton as its first President. The Association began the task of compiling annually a volume of the Herd Book. Now the Yorkshire hogs were classed as belonging to the Large White breed, but for fifty years and more they were as often as not referred to as Yorkshires.

Let us dwell awhile on the lofty idealism on which the N.P.B.A. was founded. By its very nature the recording of births and parentage must rest solely upon the word of the individual breeder, and the value of the Association rest upon the probity of its members. Such has been the standard of conduct, throughout the years, that the guarantee of pedigree given by the N.P.B.A in an export certificate is accepted without question in every land.

It is thought that the first Yorkshires brought into the United States were brought to Ohio around 1830, which would have been sixty years before the American Yorkshire Club was organized. There was not a National Pork Producers Council or even State or County Swine Organizations in those days.

The Yorkshire breed saw many ups and downs over the years. In the early 20's, the Morrell Packing Company of Ottumwa, Iowa, and the Hormel Packing Company at Austin, Minnesota, under the direction of the late Lew Reeves who was head hog buyer at Hormel, tried promoting Yorkshires to farmers around the area. This was following World War I and the market for lard was vanishing. It was unfortunate at that time that too many Yorkshires had far too much Middle and Small White in them and consequently were very slow growing and had very short and pugged noses. Yorkshires had failed to gain a foothold with farmers.

It was nor until the late Jess Andrews, Sr. of West Point. Indiana, imported many English Large Whites from the British Isles for the Neville's, Curtiss Candy Company and others, that the Yorkshire breed started to find favor with farmers. Farmers saw what Yorkshire could do for them and soon started to accept Yorkshire breeding stock. Mothering ability, larger litters, more length, more scale and frame were so badly needed by many producers that they were again ready to try Yorkshires, and this time they were satisfied!

Yorkshires were on their way. Alfred Accola of Iowa topped the first test in the Iowa Test Station, which was the first station of this kind in the United States. Yorkshires led all breeds on rate of gain and feed conversion after the first eight tests. Today Yorkshires have grown at over 3.00 pounds/day with feed conversions at 1.94.

The first Yorkshire registered in the United States was Clover Crest A. a boar imported from Canada by Wilcox & Liggett of Benson, Minnesota, who were officers of the Yorkshire Club. They purchased the boar from the Ontario Agriculture College. However I.E. Brethour of Burford, Ontario, Canada, bred or owned many of the animals that made up this first Yorkshire in the United States.

The first herd book was published in 1901 and was edited by Secretary Maj. A.G. Wilcox and Professor Thomas Shaw of the University of Minnesota. It was published by the Webb Publishing Company of St. Paul, Minnesota. who now own and publish the National Hog Farmer. In this first herd book, Volume I of the American Yorkshire Club there were 37 members listed from the United States and two from Canada. The state of Minnesota led with 14 members; North Dakota was next with 4; Iowa had 3; Illinois, Michigan, Kansas and Wisconsin followed with 2 members each; and Pennsylvania, New York, Vermont, Texas, Ohio, Massachusetts, South Dakota and Nebraska had one member each. There were a total of 309 breeders from the United States who registered Yorkshires in Volume 1.

The first sow registered in tire United States started with No. 405 as the boar and sow numbers were kept separate in those days. Her name was Thomas' Hester not much of a female name and was bred by the Wilcox Company, known as Clover Crest Farm at White Bear Lake, Minnesota.

Volume I shows that John Morrell & Co., of Ottumwa, Iowa purchased their first Yorkshires at the turn of the century. The first Yorkshires from Scotland were imported by Hills & Price of Delaware, OH. Volume II was printed in 1904. again by the Webb Publishing Company. There were 1,346 boars; and 2.772 sows listed in Volume II. Volume III was printed in 1906 with 869 boars and 1,129 sows in it for a total of 1,998 head.

World War I was adding problems for Yorkshire progress. All oils and fats were badly needed for production of ammunition as well as food and many other things. There were no soybeans and fewer other vegetable oils to turn to. Consequently, the progress already made in the trend from a lard hog to a so-called "Bacon Hog" in those days was wiped out in a hurry. There was little incentive to produce hogs with "Muscle" which was a much better word than "Bacon". Lard was selling for as much as muscle, which left little argument to try and convince a farmer that he should be producing a "Meat Hog".

Yorkshire pushed forward. There were 488 head registered in 1940 and the Secretary's salary was half of the fees, or $260. A low was reached in 1935 with 150 head registered and 25 transferred. You could call these 'lean years'. a 'Yorkshire Depression'.

Other problems existed in the transportation of breeding stock sold by breeders. There were no Interstate roads in those days, no Hertz trailers or any trailers of any kind and no pickup trucks. In fact, there were very few gravel roads, let alone any paving. If you have never shipped by railway car on a fair circuit, you have really missed something.

1948 was also the year the American Yorkshire Club was reorganized and became a membership organization. Martin Gannon followed Robert Shannon as secretary in 1954 and he served until 1957. Wilbur L. Plager became secretary on October 1, 1957 and served in that capacity until October 1. 1972. or fifteen years. During those fifteen years the Yorkshire breed became known universally as "The Mother Breed" and it would flourish under Plager's leadership. Around 500,000 Yorkshires were registered, in comparison to a little over 200,000 in the first 64 years. Wilbur helped put the Yorkshire breed in a position to be accepted by the commercial producer and Yorkshires were on their way to national prominence.

Reference: American Yorkshire Club, P.O. Box 2417, West Lafayette, Indiana 47906 Phone: (317) 463-3593

AND....not to be outdone and just in case you thought the British weren't just the MOST, here's this site:

Guinea Pig Resuce and Retirement Home, Yorkshire, England . That's the cutest illustration I ever saw!

Ah to be in England!

Ginny

Good grief I'll never catch up - am listening to Miss Mapp in the car - guess a long drive is in order. Thanks, Ginny, for the Yorkshire pig info - am going to find a way to incorporate some of the info into a conversation - people know I'm always blathering on about England so this won't seem a bit eccentric!

Maida, don't you LOVE the Home for Guinea Pigs? There'll always be an England, I sure do hope!

And here’s some more really fabulous stuff. I spent all day yesterday in glee pouring over old hymnals and the internet looking for The Roseate Morn Hath Passed Away.

Finally hit on the idea of asking the Benson List Serve, which I should have done in the first place.

Immediately came back the responses: the first one said that the July 1999 Tilling Society Newsletter had just done an annotated list of the music in all Benson’s works and that “The Tilling Society Newsletter for July 1999 has a review of musical references in the M&L books. This is what Cynthia Reavell says: "The roseate morn hath passed away" occurs to Elizabeth when she hears what turrns out to be the drunken singing of Captain Puffin and Major Flint. This is an old hymn which seems to be vanishing from modern collections, but all the books in which Tony (Mr. Reavell) has it give the first line as ‘The radiant morn hath passed away’. “

Then came another letter from Louise:

THE ROSEATE DAWN HATH PASSED AWAY:

“

Words:
Cecil Frances Humphreys Alexander,

1853.

Music:

“Ellacombe,”
Gesangbuch der

Herzogl. Wir?tem?berg?isch?en

Ka?thol?isc?hen Hofkapelle (Wurt?e?mberg,

Germ?any: 1784);
adapted and harmonized by William Henry Monk, 1868 (MIDI, score).

Alternate tunes:

“Amberley” (MIDI, score)




“Kingsfold” (MIDI, score)

The roseate hues of early dawn, the brightness of the day,

The crimson of the sunset sky, how fast they fade away!

O for the pearly gates of heav’n! O for the golden floor!

O for the Sun of Righteousness that setteth nevermore!

The highest hopes we cherish here, how fast they tire and faint!

How many a spot defiles the robe that wraps an earthly saint!

O for a heart that never sins! O for a soul washed white!

O for a voice to praise our King, nor weary day or night!

Here faith is ours, and heavenly hopes, and grace to lead us higher;

But there are perfectness and peace beyond our best desire.

O by Thy love and anguish, Lord, O by Thy life laid down,

Grant that we fall not from Thy grace, nor cast away our crown!

Cecil Frances Humphreys Alexander

1818-1895

Born: 1818, Dublin, Ireland.

Cecil Alexander’s husband was William Alexander, bishop of Derry and Raphoe, and later the Anglican primate for Ireland. Cecil and her sister founded a school for the deaf, and she set up the Girls’ Friendly Society in Londonderry. Cecil Alexander wrote about 400 hymns in her lifetime.
Her works include:

Verses From the Holy Scriptures, 1846 Hymns for Little Children, 1848

Narrative Hymns for Village Schools, 1853

Poems on Subjects in the Old Testament, 1854 & 1857

Hymns Descriptive and Devotional, 1858 The Legend of the Golden Prayer, 1859

Died: October 12, 1895, Londonderry, Northern Ireland.

Hymns:

1.All Things Bright and Beautiful

2.Eternal Gates Lift Up Their Heads, The

3.For All Thy Saints, a Noble Throng
4.Forgive Them, O My Father

5.He Is Risen

6.His Are the Thousand Sparkling Rills

7.In Nazareth in Olden Times

8.Jesus Calls Us

9.O Love Most Patient, Give Me Grace

10.Once in David’s Royal City




11.Roseate Hues of Early Dawn, The




12.Saw You Never, in the Twilight?




13.Souls in Death and Darkness Lying




14.Spirit of God, That Moved of Old




15.St. Patrick’s Breastplate




16.There Is a Green Hill Far Away
”




Isn’t it amazing how many familiar hymns she did write the words to?

The most exciting thing of all is that the tune, Ellacombe, is one we know as The Day of Resurrection, tune: Ellacombe: Wirtemberg, 1784.

The words to The Day of Resurrection by St. John of Damascus, 8th Century, translated by John Mason Neale in 1853. Here’s the song: Ellacombe

It’s pretty clear that the popularity of The Day of Resurrection has eclipsed Mrs. Alexander’s words, yet, in reading over her lyrics, I find them strangely more attractive than the new/old version? Perhaps a bit more Edwardian?

Anyway, it’s clear the same tune is used more than once, and I find this whole subject fascinating, it’s amazing what you can get out of reading what some uninformed people might consider a light book. I guess it’s light if you don’t know any of the references!

What did you think of the writing in this one, as compared to the others??

Ginny

I like the writing a lot. It's up there with Lucia in London, in my mind.

Sarah, I thought that while the quality of writing remains the same in both books, I actually find MISS MAPP the most difficult of all the books to read, and, in fact, when I reread them, I often skip MISS MAPP. For one thing, the style seems to me a bit different. In comparison, in LUCIA IN LONDON, for instance, the first 5 pages of LUCIA IN LONDON contain more than 25 paragraphs, most of which are dialogue. You are, after a moment's introduction, thrown into the conversations as if you belonged.

In MISS MAPP, in the first 5 pages, there are 8 paragraphs, the writing is denser and more of a descriptive nature, we don't have too many dialogues or conversations, in fact, there's only one, Miss Mapp thinking out loud. I found this different in style and I wondered if it were for effect.

I do see, in this read through, a nastines to Miss Mapp that I never saw before. I saw the videos before I read MISS MAPP the first time, and I believe Prunella Scales affected my vision of what Benson was trying to do. Of course, she was portraying and accurately, Book IV, MAPP and LUCIA. Even the title there, tho expresses something: for instance, MISS MAPP is the only book to use anybody's "title:" "Miss." But Lucia, who is actually Mrs. Lucas,, and whose given name is Emmeline, is immediately known to us as "Lucia," whether for good or ill, we feel closer to her, I believe, at least at first, then we do Miss Mapp. That's my theory, anyway.

It's very interesting how your loyalties change as you proceed through the books, too, at least I got swung around more than once. I hope we have enough people to continue to the end of the series, you may be surprised yourself in how skillful Benson is at jerking you around.

So as we stand now, how do we each feel about Miss Mapp?

If we had to side right now with one or the other, Miss Mapp or Lucia, which would it be?

Back tomorrow hopefully to see your thoughts, and with more on the golf tram.

Ginny

I'd side with Lucia in a minute. Her manipulations are an attempt to save face. Mapp's seem to be more vicious and hurtful.

I guess you're right, Ginny, that the styles are different. However, I found this book no less entertaining than Lucia in London. The stories - the battle of the dresses, the hoarding, the duel, Mr. Wyse and the Contessa, the white butterflies in the garden (aren't white butterflies actually moths?) - all priceless.

Maybe you like this book less because Mapp's manipulations are so pointless??? She is not helping the world any.

Miss Ginny: How can you even consider taking sides?

I am sure that all who read here will most certainly see that I have always meant well. My hoarding was self-survival.

As you know, if you don't watch out for yourself, no one else will. But that is so true, even now, as I see dissension raising it's ugly head in the Chicago 1999 page.

I sure hope it will be a different situation when you come to England in 2000. Of course, then I will be glad to tell all about where you shall and shan't go, and what are the best places and people to see. I'm so looking forward to that great time.

And Miss Ginny be sure and bring all the friends here in the Mapp and Lucia Books. No one should come who isn't willing to have a good time and enjoy Jolly Old England.

Ginny, I'm exhausted reading about Yorkshire pigs. Saw a few when I was in England.

The tapes are on their way to me. So hope I can catch up with all of you, soon.

You are next on the list Sarah.

Please put me on the list for the tapes!! Where should I send my address? Having just started listening to Miss Mapp I'm not sure that I would want her for a friend - she's too interested in gossipy things and sometimes she's not altogether nice. In my listening she has just tried her damndest to screw up an afternoon bridge party because she wasn't invited first. I'll vote for Lucia - I quite enjoy her survivability, her ability to save face.

Maida, your name is on the list, if Sarah wavers in her decision not to view them you'll get an email from whoever has them now. That list was originally quite long, and as each person has viewed the tapes, we've removed their names, it's moving right along. As soon as everybody has viewed them,we can discuss them: a book/ film feast. The tapes cover book IV, Mapp and Lucia, and some of the characterizations are priceless: Mr. Wyse, Major Benjy and Mapp herself. The town of Rye is prominently featured, in fact the tour the Benson Society takes of the area visits the sites used in the shooting of the film, as well as the original Mallards.

I hope Sarah may change her mind, but you all need to prepare for a shock in Lucia. In fact, as I've said before, it was her awfulness which stopped my clicking finger on the controls, the camp, but Georgie grabs you in and keeps you. The Benson List Serve currently has reviewed the second set of tapes and pronounced them disappointing. The British like them better than the first set, so I guess it's a good litmus test!

I've had a marvelous letter from a gentleman in England from the Benson List Serve who reminds me we must not miss, on one of our stops we already had scheduled for our Tour of England in the spring, Truro, but he informs me that the Truro Cathedral was BUILT by Edward White Benson (EF's father, the Archbishop of Canterbury, which I certainly did NOT know), and that Marie Corelli's house (the woman so many of the characters were based on if you remember our earlier notes in the other discussions) may be opened to view in Stratford by writing (EMAIL) the woman who lives in it! What excitement!

So for those of you planning to come along, that's two added features to an already packed trip.

Sarah, I like your rationale: Lucia is just doing her thing in self defense. Wait till the two come head to head, the motivations swirl and, really, in the later books, one is not sure which one to support. It's interesting.

I think everybody everywhere hopes to be important to somebody and I think Lucia and Mapp both, in different ways, are trying that very thing out. I think that's what Benson is and has been saying, and it's interesting to me which characters do NOT seem to need validation from the others.

Can you look me straight in the face and say we don't have those very people here on SeniorNet?

Miss Mapp: there you are again, naughty ol you, you held off while I was in Seattle just to imply it was me, didn't you? And we both know it isn't. That's funny!

Clare, I'm so glad to see you again, yes, that was a good bit on the Yorkshire pig, but it's amazing what all comes up in a Benson discussion.

The Marie Corelli thing, I believe she also hoarded food, will go find out.

Now attempting to scan in interesting stuff about the Rye and Camber Tramway.

Ginny

CMac - yes, I'll view the tapes when you're done. We can handle it by e-mail at that point, ok?

Mapp - thou dost protest too much, methinks.

Ginny - you have me VERY intrigued. Should I read on?? The book is still here.

Sarah, yes, read on, in the MAPP and the IV,if you like, we'll try to finish up Mapp next week or so. Finally finally getting to Book IV, I think you all have been superb, but now onward thru Miss Mapp! Larry has sent me scanning directions for this entire page on the golf tram (yes, there really was one, and it's interesting) which I'm too lazy to type so hopefully I can get the stupid thing up and running.

And word now comes to these startled ears that there's yet ANOTHER Lucia book by somebody called Martin Wixted, called LUCIA VICTORIOUS and that's a GOTTA HAVE, but can't find it anywhere.

Nor the author. Not on bibliofind. Nowhere. Gotta have it.

Ginny

Boy o boy o boy,it's like Pandora's Box, you peep a little under the lid and WHAMMO, the whole thing flies out. Just LOOK at all this great stuff!

Heard more from Roger Collier of GB, (The Venial Critic) and his visit to the grave of Marie Corelli. You may remember that Corelli was the inspiration for a lot of Benson's characters in the series, for instance, "she attempted to speak Italian, professed to be descended from the childless musician Arcangelo Corelli (her real name was Minnie Mackay), relapsed into baby talk with men (whom she hated),kidnapped Shakespeare for her own, living in Stratford so as to protect his name from the ignorant, played the piano with pitiless sincerity, and was a monster of pretension...She was the best selling novelist of her day, claimed to be in her twenties when she was, in fact, well over fifty, and complained to the newspapers if she was not prominently listed in every blurb on any occasion. She was reputed to hoard food. The brothers Benson visited her many times at her home in Stratford, Mason Croft, A.C. Benson and Hugh, especially.

She was especially fond of Fred Benson, who had assembled on the side a scrap book of interesting things he found in the world, being especially scornful of pretention in people, including cuttings, letters, and pictures relating to Marie Corelli. It's clear from their correspondence that she had a real fondness for him and never realized he was satirizing her. He pounced on her failings with glee."



Brian Masters, in THE LIFE OF EF BENSON.



Here is her gravestone, Roger Collier tells me that gesture in the hand of the angel is obscene in England.

Corelli's Tombstone

Roger will visit her home on Monday and promises full text and illustrations, I can't wait! Here, perhaps, is more than you wanted to know about this vain woman who imported a gondola from Venice for her trips down the Avon: Marie Corelli

On the tram lines, I have scanned in the text so many times it simply refuses to scan further and have had no luck at all getting it up so will briefly summarize, much too lazy to type all that in, no matter HOW interesting it is! hahahahahaha

Ginny

Ginny again? Now don't let me hog the whole conversation! Look at this from the Benson List Serve, don't you LOVE it?? Can you get ONE right?? Just one? Can you stop at ONE?

hahahahaha

Addictive: Look if you Dare!!

Ginny

Everywhere I go tonight, that Ginny has this bothersome place, that I just can't leave alone.

Did you know that intoxicated comes from an ancient Latin medical term meaning poisoned, or killed by poisoning?

Ginny these site you have shared ar wonderful - I love the list of swashbuckling stories - this is great - How did you find Roger? Talk about a Roger Rabbit hidden in the dishwater - this Roger has been hidden from us too long.

Yes, how did you find Roger? Is there a site for us to access?

It's called the Benson List Serve, it's aficionadoes of EF Benson, they email only. They have websites, and news of things pertaining to EF Benson. Their email is:
benson@europe.std.com
"benson@world.std.com" <benson@world.std.com>

They generally take ON a personna from the books, and they keep a list going as to who has what name. I no longer know how to JOIN the List, but a letter to them indicating interest would doubtless glean tons of information. They are constant in their replies, so much so that I've had to create a filter and filter them over to Benson lest I be overwhelmed, but the information they impart is truly staggering.

Anybody interested should email them and await the result.

Tons and tons o stuff.

Including two new Lucia books by a Martin Wixted whom some of them knew personally. So I must have those, you know. Somehow.

I'm the dummy in the group, I'm Daisy.

Ginny

Ginny please could you would you, bring a folder of Benson to Chi - don't want to email now but would love to see all this.

We'll have a Benson meeting, Barb, open to all, but what would you want IN the folder? There are literally thousands of letters let me know?

Ginny

Hellooooo? At the risk of talking to myself, here we are on the last leg of EF Benson's THIRD book, MISS MAPP! It's hard to believe we've done three.

As soon as everybody has viewed the tapes we can discuss them here and see what you thought, that time should be coming very soon, as there are only a few to go, and I do appreciate your cooperation in mailing them about!

There WAS a golf tram? "The Rye and Camber Tramway (Camber is the name of Henry VIII's ruined castle in Rye) was a light railway, and opened between Rye and the golf links in July 1895. The golf links station was originally called Camber. It was on private land, 2 1/2 miles in length, with a track gauge of 3 feet. It was operated by two diminutive tank engines, a 2-4-0 tank, the Camber, built in 1895 by Bagnalls and the Victoria. In later years a petrol tractor in apple green ( a local railway historian called it an "overgrown lawnmower") eventually took the line over.

There were just two carriages. The engine was light green and the coaches brown. The first carriage was 1st class 2nd class (with partition) and the second coach third class. The line closed in 1939 never to run again, the rolling stock was sold for scrap in 1946.

Originally golfers, fishermen and tourists used the tram. Golfers often returned in "high spirits," and sometimes pulled out the pin that separated the two carriages, resulting in a stranded carriage." --The Tilling Society Newsletter for 1989-1991).

Now here at the end of the book we have the death of Captain Puffin, I believe he is the only character to actually die in the entire series, and the engagement of Mr. Wyse and Mrs. Poppitt. We have, in my book, an inclusion of a Miss Mapp short story.

We have the hilarious coincidences of the crimson lakes again, what a hoot.

Miss Mapp despairs of people getting caught in the Contessa's spell until she herself falls for the same trick, and Benson manages to lampoon the lampooner, really deft work here.

We have the words "scriggle," and PPC cards, I love "scriggle" but am not sure what PPC stands for??

And we have "The Voice That Breathed O'er Eden," Wonder what that is? Another hymn?

And we can see the price Miss Mapp exacts for retaining Major Benjy's friendship: he's to give up his association with Captain Puffin? Benson actually does this one so well that it reminds me of some latter day Mapps who, in their necessity to have things their way, insist that everybody forgo all other associations but theirs. "Ye'r either fer em or agin em," and there's no in-between. Here, in these scenes, I believe Benson was actually describing somebody he knew: WHO that might be is a mystery, but it's too dead on to be anything else.

Do you know anybody like Miss Mapp in that scene? It's interesting that in the later books you don't see much of this behavior, but it's because Lucia comes to town and Mapp loses her neurotic hold on the townspeople.

But Benson, in this, his most muted of books, continues in his droll manner to the last. Mr. Wyse and Mrs. Poppit: "had settled at dinner that they much preferred looking on and learning to playing. With a view to enjoying this incredible treat as fully as possible, they at once seated themselves on a low sofa at the far end of the room where they could not look or learn at all, and engaged in conversation." (page 247).

I think when Benson moved the series to his own home town and so carefully described his own house as Mallards, that he felt at first he needed to be a bit circumspect in creating the characters, but apparently they were a huge hit and so he was able to lighten up in subsequent novels. I read somewhere people seemed to try to recognize themselves in the books, tho Marie Corelli apparently never did.

More on Mr. Wyse and the Rolls tomorrow. What are your conclusions, now that we've come to the end?

Ginny

I've found the words but not the tune to the Voice That Breathed O'er Eden, in site of the Lutheran Hymnal, 1941. Apparently, by all the references that come up in the Hotbot search, it's used a lot in weddings. I have a feeling it's a familiar tune but the words aren't: I even saw a reference to Hayden? Will keep looking for the tune: but here are the words:

Hellooooo? At the risk of talking to myself, here we are on the last leg of EF Benson's THIRD book, MISS MAPP! It's hard to believe we've done three.

As soon as everybody has viewed the tapes we can discuss them here and see what you thought, that time should be coming very soon, as there are only a few to go, and I do appreciate your cooperation in mailing them about!

There WAS a golf tram? "The Rye and Camber Tramway (Camber is the name of Henry VIII's ruined castle in Rye) was a light railway, and opened between Rye and the golf links in July 1895. The golf links station was originally called Camber. It was on private land, 2 1/2 miles in length, with a track gauge of 3 feet. It was operated by two diminutive tank engines, a 2-4-0 tank, the Camber,built in 1895 by Bagnalls and the Victoria. In later years a petrol tractor in apple green ( a local railway historian called it an "overgrown lawnmower") eventually took the line over.

There were just two carriages. The engine was light green and the coaches brown. The first carriage was 1st class 2nd class (with partition) and the second coach third class. The line closed in 1939 never to run again, the rolling stock was sold for scrap in 1946.

Originally golfers, fishermen and tourists used the tram. Golfers often returned in "high spirits," and sometimes pulled out the pin that separated the two carriages, resulting in a stranded carriage." --The Tilling Society Newsletter for 1989-1991).

Now here at the end of the book we have the death of Captain Puffin, I believe he is the only character to actually die in the entire series, and the engagement of Mr. Wyse and Mrs. Poppitt. We have, in my book, an inclusion of a Miss Mapp short story.

We have the hilarious coincidences of the crimson lakes again, what a hoot.

Miss Mapp despairs of people getting caught in the Contessa's spell until she herself falls for the same trick, and Benson manages to lampoon the lampooner, really deft work here.

We have the words "scriggle," and PPC cards, I love scriggle but am not sure what PPC stands for??

And we have "The Voice That Breathed O'er Eden," Wonder what that is? Another hymn?

And we can see the price Miss Mapp exacts for retaining Major Benjy's friendship: he's to give up his association with Captain Puffin? Benson actually does this one so well that it reminds me of some latter day Mapps who, in their necessity to have things their way, insist that everybody forgo all other associations but theirs. "Ye'r either fer em or agin em," and there's no in-between. Here, in these scenes, I believe Benson was actually describing somebody he knew: WHO that might be is a mystery, but it's too dead on to be anything else.

Do you know anybody like Miss Mapp in that scene? It's interesting that in the later books you don't see much of this behavior, but it's because Lucia comes to town and Mapp loses her neurotic hold on the townspeople.

But Benson, in this, his most muted of books, continues in his droll manner to the last. Mr. Wyse and Mrs. Poppit: "had settled at dinner that they much preferred looking on and learning to playing. With a view to enjoying this incredible treat as fully as possible, they at once seated themselves on a low sofa at the far end of the room where they could not look or learn at all, and engaged in conversation." (page 247).

I think when Benson moved the series to his own home town and so carefully described his own house as Mallards, that he felt at first he needed to be a bit circumspect in creating the characters, but apparently they were a huge hit and so he was able to lighten up in subsequent novels. I read somewhere people seemed to try to recognize themselves in the books, tho Marie Corelli apparently never did.

More on Mr. Wyse and the Rolls tomorrow. What are your conclusions, now that we've come to the end?

Ginny

"The Voice That Breathed O'er Eden" is, of course, a hymn, and though I can't find the music (I have a feeling it's VERY familiar, tho, as apparently it's the choice for weddings....and I've seen Haydn as one of the composers listed....) but here are the lyrics, from the LUTHERAN HYMNAL, 1941:

 
                  "The Voice that Breathed o'er Eden" 
                      by John Keble, 1792-1866              
                              Text From: 
                  THE HANDBOOK TO THE LUTHERAN HYMNAL 
          (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1942)p.445 

	1. The voice that breathed o'er Eden, 
	That earliest wedding-day, 
	The primal marriage blessing,-- 
	It hath not passed away. 
	Still in the pure espousal 
	Of Christian man and maid 
	The Triune God is with us, 
	The threefold grace is said. 

	2. Be present, loving Father, 
	To give away this bride 
	As Thou gav'st Eve to Adam, 
	A helpmeet at his side. 
	Be present, Son of Mary, 
	To join their loving hands 
	As Thou didst bind two natures 
	In Thine eternal bands. 

	3. Be present, Holiest Spirit, 
	To bless them as they kneel, 
	As Thou for Christ, the Bridegroom, 
	The heavenly Spouse dost seal. 
	Oh, spread Thy pure wing o'er them, 
	Let no ill power find place 
	When onward to Thine altar 
	Their hallowed path they trace. 

	4. To cast their crowns before Thee 
	In humble sacrifice, 
	Till to the home of gladness 
	With Christ's own Bride they rise. 
	To Father, Son, and Spirit, 
	Eternal One and Three, 
	As was and is forever, 
	All praise and glory be. 

       _______________________________________ 
        Notes: 
        Hymn #622 from _The Handbook to the Lutheran Hymnal_ 
        Text: Eccl. 4:12 
        Author: John Keble, 1857, ab., alt.         
        Tune: "Eden" 
        1st Published in: _Sacred Hymns and Tunes_ 
        Town: Boston, 1880 
       ________________________________________________________________ 
        This text was converted to ascii format for Project Wittenberg 
             by Debbie Harris and is in the public domain. You may 
         freely distribute, copy or print this text. Please direct any 
        comments or suggestions to: Rev. Robert E. Smith of the Walther 
                  Library at Concordia Theological Seminary. 

                        E-mail: CFWLibrary@CRF.CUIS.EDU 

          Surface Mail: 6600 N. Clinton St.,Ft.  Wayne, IN 46825 USA 
         Phone: (219) 481-2123                     Fax: (219) 452-2126 
       ________________________________________________________________ 

Keeping in mind that Benson himself was the son of the Archibishop of Canterbury, he must have heard a million hymns in his lifetime and apparently some stuck in his brain and he made associations as we all do, with music. This reference occurs on page 233 in the text, and until I now understand its reference to marriage, Puffin and Flint's conversation at that point meant nothing!

Ginny

Ginny - I had no idea that Benson based these books on his own home town or on real characters. Now that's frightening!!

I love Wyse-Poppitt engagement party (??) that Mapp thinks she's not invited to. She spends all day trying to figure out how not to be visible to the other guests in her desperation. She concocts a million stories of why she might have been excluded. Classic Benson - wasn't there a similar "slight" in Lucia in London that turned out to be just an oversight??

You know, for me the weakest part of the story was the Puffin/Benjy friendship, duel, evenings drinking etc. I just wasn't as interested in those parts as I was in the battle of the bright dresses, the hoarding, the parties, the bridge games, etc.

Is it possible Benson just doesn't write men as interestingly as women? The women seem to be great connivers. They run their towns. The men are secondary - they go along with the women's machinations.

It's interesting that Benson, a man, wrote such weak male characters. All of them (so far) are buffoonish, don't you think?

What is Benson's story? What was his background, his demeanor?

Mapp loses her neurotic hold on the townspeople.

Now, Miss Ginny, I think you are being a wee bit cruel. I am only interested in the best for myself.

And Miss Sarah, The Major is ceratinly not buffoonish. He is a gentleman, sincere in all things. Of course, i try to guide him as best he will follow.

Miss Mapp - you're right and we're wrong. Please forgive us.

Sarah: Yes, I do agree, there was a similar "am I invited" episode not only in the LONDON but in some of the others, too.

The two clickables in the heading, especially this one: EF Benson Website probably will tell you a lot more than you ever wanted to know, and if you click on the house above, the photo gallery is very interesting of Rye, Benson's home town. His own house, now called "Lamb House" was the home of Henry James and Rumer Godden, and EF Benson who called it MALLARDS in MISS MAPP. There's even a photo of the famous "Garden Room" which was destroyed in WWII by bombing.

I, too, thought the Puffin/ Flint story was a bit weak, particularly the Puffin. Strange name, almost too camp? But the duel WAS funny, wasn't it? Both of them running to the station. I think this is the weakest of this series of books.

I still don't know what Bovril is!

That's a very interesting point about Benson's male characters, the females are much stronger, aren't they? The men weak. Peppino, the Major, the Padre, Puffin, Mr. Wyse (doubtful here) None of them "rule" the roost, as it were. Interesting. Benson, of course, never married, but I'm not sure that meant he thought men were ineffectual. What an interesting observation.

In the videos, the actor playing Major Benjy is perfect, I think, just the right touch of serious buffoonery. Geoffrey Chater, I believe, plays Mr. Wyse and he's good, too, that can't have been an easy role.

You know, tho, Georgie has some character and some backbone, he's much the most interesting man (and not in this book) but will reappear in Book IV. I wonder if Georgie IS Benson, just saw a big discussion with the Benson List Serve that Benson might have been revealing himself in the Miss Leg character, (not in these books) will copy in here tomorrow what they say about Benson himself!

Ginny

Must confess I haven't done well reading this epesoide and I'm not sure what context Bovril is used. But I believe it is a soup/sauce base in liqued form from France much like those chicken, beef or veg. bouillon tablets we use to add flavor to our sauces.

Bovril - liquid beef! This yummy treat is a staple for the British.

Sounds a bit like my Grandmother's Beef Tea, she use to feed us.

Yes, Ginny, I thought about Georgie as I made my (since disaffirmed) comment about Benson's male characters. (Mapp set me straight. She is so good at pointing out others' flaws. I am reformed.)

Georgie was a rather gay fellow, though, wasn't he?

hahahha, Read on, O Sarah, read on as to Georgie. It's been said that England does not produce, perhaps the most ....well, would we call it Macho of men?

And then you have the Profumo (sp?) stuff?

So who knows?

Bovril is BEEF TEA? Ickers ickers!! I thought it was like BOSCO. Uggers!!!

Of course Benson himself never married, nor did any of his siblings. One was openly gay. All of the Benson brothers had a horror of being touched. They're a fascinating family, a Don, an Archibishop of Canterbury, a Catholic....I'm thinking he was a Bishop, too, but not sure.

The Tilling Society says that the description of Mr. Wyse corresponds with one HE Luxmoore, a friend and Eton colleague of AC Benson (Benson's brother), and Lord Battersea, a friend of EF Benson. "Lord Battersea was of the type which Disraeli called 'the Magnifico' and he had a genial careless consciousness of his own splendours that seldom left him. He was a very handsome man; he had fine features and silky grey hair. His wife was plain and stout...and had the most courteous and deferential manner and accompanied his remarks which were few, cautious and precisely phrased, with a constant succession of little bows, like a pigeon patrolling a lawn." Luxmore wore low Byronic collars and knickerbockers and stockings. Both were dignified and vain and "treated with the dererence they obviously feel is due them."

Obviously both Benson brothers had a keen eye for pretense!

On the Royce that Mrs. Wyse is driven in, this interesting tidbit:

Lord Montague, writing in the SUNDAY TELEGRAPH of 6/12/90, writes that "Everyone knows (??!!??) the story of engineer Henry Royce being introdued to the aristocratic Charles Rolls and going on to build the best cars in the world. But at one time it was a fad for some owners to refer to their cars as Royces, in an attempt to play down Rolls's contribution as a great salesman and enhance that of Royce as an engineer."

"It's interesting that the snobbish Wyses refer to their car as a Royce and not a Rolls, but "perhaps Rolls had put himself socially beyond the pale by his commercial and marketing activities?" (Tilling Newsletter).

Even the name of cars has meaning in these books!

Actually when you read the biographies of Fred Benson (the Brian Masters being the best, I think) you can't help but be moved and attracted to Fred: the most steadfast and true of the entire bunch. His favorite flower was the blue morning glory, a weed. That tells you something!

He was considered a "failure" academically in comparison with his brilliant brother Arthur, a Don, even though he majored in Classical Languages and produced some splendid books on very scholarly subjects. Arthur (AC) never let up on his critisicm and Fred nursed Arthur till he died.

A complex, intelligent, and flawed family. It makes for fascinating reading.

Ginny

Georgie: I rather liked Georgie... He reminded me of a cousin, several years older than I, who became a very good hairdresser, a very kind caring person.... went on to move to Hollywood where he found his place. Worked for Universal and be came the "head" honcho out there.

I, too, liked Georgie... a clever and compassionate man NOT portrayed in the tapes as I had pictured him at all! I did not think of him as gay, merely asexual, as it were. Jeesh! Even football players do needlepoint for fun and relaxation!!

Jeryn,

I agree with your comments about Georgie. He seems rather effete but not gay - asexual does it. Of all the men in the three books I've read he's my favorite too even though Lucia leads him around by the nose. All of Benson's men are shadows compared to his ladies. Just finished (on tape) Miss Mapp - now what?

Well, good question, now what? If you've seen the videos you know what happens in Book IV, MAPP AND LUCIA. Does anybody want to try reading that one? Shall we persevere through the entire series??

Book V, I hate to say this, is a good one! So is Book VI. So are the Holt sequels....and, frankly, I would KILL for the two "new" Wixted books just revealed!!!

What do you all want to do? Am on fire to discuss the tapes!!

Ginny

Jeryn, that's an interesting point about Georgie on the tapes vis a vis Georgie in the books! So the portrayal on the tapes is NOT what you had envisioned? Why?

I notice Nigel Hawthorne never gives this series as a credit, wonder what he himself thinks of it. I know the Queen Mother is a total fan and he's now Sir Nigel, wonder if the two had any connection?

Ginny

Ginny - I'm definitely game for reading the next book.

I really like the next book, too.. Even though Mapp is one of my favorite characters... Her antics are always good for a laugh... and you can pick up the book, chose any page and get a good story.

I really want to go forward - for me Georgie and Lucia are my favorites although, Mapp and Major Benjie are a hoot. Oh and I love Irene.

Needlepoint or not, I do think Georgie is gay but, what does it matter. He is such a sincere and loyal friend and seems to bring charm with him when he enters the scene. Oh to have in real life such a good friend and neighbor would be a joy to look forward to.

Now with Lucia, as much as I love her, I think I would duck when I saw her coming. I'd be afraid of getting hooked into her latest project regardless my own committments or energy.

And Irene I could yak with all afternoon, swinging down the lane just chatting away about almost anything. Even gossip is out in the open with Irene. No whispering behind cupped hands.

If anyone is interested I found a set of Lucia books at my used book store for 12.00. He said he would be glad to mail them.

If anyone is interested e-mail me any I will give you his address.

Judy

Okay. Finished Miss Mapp (audio) and found Queen Lucia at the library. I'm somewhat confused having come late into this discussion. Which book came first? In some Lucia is in Rizholme and in others she's in Tilling. At the end of Miss Mapp a Miss MacIntosh was introduced and I can only assume that she must be Lucia - so I guess it stands to reason that the tales about her begin in Tilling and progress to Rizholme - somewhere in here she meets and marries Peppino. That'll teach me not to start a project in the middle (began listening with Lucia in London).

Queen Lucia, Lucia in London, Miss Mapp, Mapp and Lucia, The Worshipful Lucia, and Trouble for Lucia, I think that's the order...and in Make Way for Lucia which is the ntire collection, The Male Impersonator is included.

Oh dear! Maida! Lucia starts in Risholme, ends up moving to Tilling after vacationing there a few months. In order, they are Queen Lucia, Lucia in London, Miss Mapp, Mapp and Lucia, oh dern! I forget the titles of the last two [CRS strikes again]!! Well, you get the idea!

Ginny, I just thought Georgie would be more of a presence--younger, taller, handsomer, less old maidish. A match for Lucia. Her character on the tapes fit right in with what I had pictured. So did Miss Mapp but, unfortunately, I could not understand a word she said! Mush mouth!!

Oh Pat! Thanks for helping my CRS!! We were posting together! I think Worshipful Lucia is last?

Hi Jeryn... I agree, very hard to understand the dialogue.. But I think Miss Mapp was perhaps a kinder (HA) person in the tapes than in the book.

To Jeryn and Pat I'm so glad to hear someone else had problems with the dialogue on the tapes. Haven't decided which one Mapp or Lucia can be declared the kinder.

Sarah if you send me your Smail address I'll mail you the tapes

Clare

Thanks Pat and Jeryn. I can see that I am listening to the stores backwards -oh, well - it certainly doesn't ruin it for me as each seems to be able to stand on its own - and they are such a delicious listen - the bank person at the drive-up window thinks I'm crazy - all these English women's voices coming from my car.

Oh I know it you have to turn the volume WAY WAY up, I have to wait till everybody is OUT of the house to watch the videos as they enunciate with that peculiar clenched jaw common to the upper classes in Britain. Have you ever heard Prince Charles (whom Dan Rather persists in calling The Prince of Whales) when he's just speaking conversationally? You can't understand a word.

Likewise Prince Philip, tho in his case that might be all to the better.

Maida, Lucia starts out in Riseholme (the real Broadway, see photo in heading) but MOVES to "Tilling" (Rye) in Book IV which we're about to take up. The tapes will make it totally clear, you're fine, the books do stand alone.

I must say I'm thrilled that so many of you are discovering Benson for the first time, I'm so pleased, there is SO much to him and I haven't begun to do him justice. Perhaps in the next book.

Now when shall we start it?

We have two more people to view the tapes and then I'd like a rousing good talk on them here, let's see what you all thought.

Taller?? Jeryn, you thought he'd be taller? Benson said Georgie WAS tall, do you remember? And Hawthorne is not. One of the things I'd like to discuss is the characterization of each person. Should we do that BEFORE or after we read Book IV since the tapes cover Book IV?

When would you like to start Book IV??

Happy Happy Birthday, Judy Laird!!!

This is Judy's big day and she's to have a party given by her handsome children, she's very lucky in her family!! MAZELTOV!!

Ginny

Ginny, I've heard of Judy, but don't think I know her. I suspect she's a fabulous, famous Seniornetter. Tell me a bit.

I'd love to start book IV on 9/1, if that's ok. I like your idea about discussing each character, rather than just the books, since the characters recur, and folks seem to have trouble keeping the books sorted out anyway. These seem more like chapters in one big book, don't they?

Did you see our Lucia of the vidio as a guest star on "Red Dwarf"? We are having our PBS fund drive and tonite they showed 4 brand new programs in the Red Dwarf series and there was our Lucia playing the part of Cassandra looking older and shown only from the neck up as if filmed in infra-red. That enunciation must be her signature - no high pitched voice just that fabulous enunciation.

Barb, no I missed it!! NO!! I must see our "Lucia" in the RED DWARf (what is that??)

Tell you what, Sarah, we've got so many starting in September, let's put MAPP & LUCIA off till October 1, how about that? Our Books Anniversary is then, and we can start fall off with a bang!

I hope you do get to Chicago where you can meet our Judy Laird, who LURKS but does not post!! Lurking Laird, I call her! WE must draw her out, she's a new grandmother this morning, the baby came when he was told it was her birthday but of course, she lied.

Judy is quite a character, lives in Seattle, very interesting as are all our Bookies, and she NEEDS TO POST!!!

Let's aim for October 1 for MAPP & LUCIA??

Ginny

October 1 is great for Mapp and Lucia.

Congratulations lurker Laird! My mom became a grandmother for the first time 2 months ago and she is just NOT the same person now. She's on cloud 9.

Life begins with your first grandchild.... There is nothing too good for her/him. Grandfathers as well as grandmothers become slaves.

I think LL (Lurking Laird) has about 14 grandchildren, tho she's still the same!! hahahahahah

Ginny

Thanks for the birthday greetings. Its fun to have it last for three or four days because Miss Mapp has a SMALL problem not only with directions but also with dates.

Sarah I don't know about fabulous, famous, senior netter butI would like to be. I look forward to meeting you in Chicago.

This was my 14th grandchild so I should have it down by now. I have 6 girls that are in their teens, one will be 20 on her next birthday, they go down from there to 2days. hehehe

Had a nice BD lunch and am now getting ready for dinner, just going to eat my way through this one as it is a "milestone" I am told then no more birthdays.

Thanks Again Love Judy

Ah, there's our own LL now, on her way to being famous by finally POSTING! YAY!!

Now a snafu has raised it's hoary head on the MAPP & LUCIA proposed schedule. Larry informs me that the book is not available, not from B&N nor Amazon? It's scheduled for reprint in December of 1999.

Am not sure how many of you have it already or could get it and want to know if you'd prefer to wait until January 1,2000 and get it started up with a roar.

What do you think?

Ginny

I have a copy in Make Way for Lucia, but the book is so heavy, and I like to read in bed. Don't count my vote to wait for 2000 unless there is a tie.

Shall I ask Mapp?

I found that most libraries have the complete Lucia. It IS a little weighty but all there for you complete in one volume!

Yes, our library has the collection too...it's easy to miss it if you just search for the one title...the fat compendium is called Make Way for Lucia...our library has three copies of this...it contains seven stories and is 1120 pages long. Pat's right! It's hard to read in bed! But let's not wait! Recheck your libraries...I'm sure its lurking there.

Good! You are all still gathered! I just finished Miss Mapp...a crazy summer here! Have read through about half the posts, and plan to read the rest this weekend.

I'd choose Lucia over Mapp in a minute, although I couldn't stand to be around either for too long.. Lucia would exhaust me- but would be interesting as all get out... and Mapp, I couldn't and wouldn't trust - ever.

I did feel sorry for her after a while. all alone- people like her SHOULD live alone though...even her dear Major Benji...called her "Old Mappy" and laughed at her...when he wasn't defending her from Captain Puffin.

The relationship between the Captain and the Major was so touching...the only real relationship in the story, I felt. It was clear the Susan went after Mr. Wyse for reasons other than deep feelings... I think that the Captain and the Major were the only characters that grew...

I find myself relating to "quaint Irene"...don't fully understand how she fits into this society...she must have some money somewhere... Yes, I do like Irene! She lives in the best of both worlds...apart from the controversy, yet included in the fun.

Back in a bit! Please don't go away. Want to read your posts!

I have just finished listening to Miss Mapp and now have both Queen Lucia and Mapp and Lucia to listen to on my daily hour commute as I start school again on Monday - GROAN! I find that I identify with quaint Ireney too - she's a character and I love her blunt staccato manner of speaking. Knowing Lucia might make me want to compete in a can-you-top-this contest. Had a friend like Mapp - didn't trust her either.

I liked Quaint Irene a lot as a character in the books. But what do you all think of her portrayal on the tapes???

Quaint Irene .... I think I liked her better in the book, but she did present a good contrast to Mapp and Lucia in the video..

The video Irene just didn't fit my mind's image of the delightful character. She would have been better as an older woman and I just didn't think the acting had much credibility. Fakey, or something. She talked too fast, maybe.

You know, I have quite forgotten the tapes...viewed them so many months ago...do remember Georgie and Lucia. So glad I forget Irene...because the rather Bohemian character on the little stage in my mind, is so wonderful, don't want any film to interfere!

I understand that all of you have finished the book...and are now discussing the film...please forgive my late observations. I finished the book, but am slowly working my way through the posts. I see I still have another day before we finish up here.

I was absolutely overwhelmed at the Maria Corelli information. So Benson did know our Lucia! Even the baby talk! Just delicious information! You all took sides between Lucia and Mapp. Yes, it would have to be Lucia for my friend...I would take delight watching her wriggle out of every predicament brought on by herself. I'm afraid I'd spend a lot of time behind her back giggling at her, as Benson did! But life would never be boring!

I searched and searched for a picture of the Tilling piggy bank...spent too much time actually. I want one!!! If I don't make it to Rye in the spring, will someone please pick up one for me? Color doesn't matter...madder. How about rose madder?Crimson lake would be nice too!. I didn't finish reading through all the posts yet...thirty more to go...but if no one found reference to those wonderful colors, you might be interested to know they come from the artist's palette...(Georgie's)...you can buy tubes of the same colors by name...the rose madder is in the third column, 8 down (#176): rose madder - I don't think it looks too much different than the crimson lake, in the first column, 10 down...#174 - do you? Do you all have dresses dyed as a matter of course? I have had such a fun time watching Mapp and Diva's constant mishaps with their dye jobs!!!

Have you all talked about the fact that these people are all single -except the minister? Well I know Lucia is married...but she missed this episode. I suppose Benson was single, and single folks tend to socialize with other single folks? Do they? I thought this was interesting! No children either...except Susan's daughter, Isabel...but she's grown, and adult. No pets? Were there pets? If Mapp had a dog, she could have walked him every evening to peek in Major's window!

I am enjoying this so much...and it is grand to have you all to talk to about it!

Back to your posts....

They didn't need pets... They canvassed the neighborhood with market basket on their arm.

I rather liked Mapp. She was so predictable. You could count on her to make most situations turn into a calamity, and her selfishness was such that it made me feel almost saint-like.

I think my mind is just cluttered with the chore of moving - I cannot for the life of me remember who Irene is. You all seen to like her so much - I don't remember anyone likeable in Miss Mapp.

Who is Irene?

Quaint Irene, they call her; she's an artist with rather "modern" tastes. She joins Mapp and Diva in the summer as they "trade down" houses for the purpose of making some $$. I think she ends up living in a seaside shanty or something while Diva goes to her house and Mapp goes to Diva's house. And Lucia comes on the scene to rent Mapp's house. She does come on the scene in the first Mapp book, doesn't she?

She lives in Tilling and I remember earlier in one of the posts someone likened her to girls they remember from school that played some field sport like rugby or something.

I loved the way she supported Lucia and with a sly innocense and not showing unkindness put Mapp in her place. She was independent of the frey between all of them and yet a part of all of them. She had the great ability to be naughty that had her showing her undies and quoting risque poetry.

Trying to depict that independence - I wonder if that is why Quaint Irene wore knickers and painted avant guarde themes.

One of my favorite scenes is when she hot foots it over to Lucia after the luncheon for the Countess, during which the Countess was presented Lucia's note in 'perfect Italian' foiling Mapp's suspecians once again.

By the way does anyone know the name of the musical piece or the composer that is the intro and signature musical theme to the vidios. I noticed part of the tune is now used by Travelers Life Insurance when they advertize on PBS with their red umbrella.

Ok, Irene is not in Lucia in London or Miss Mapp. Whew! I thought I was losing my marbles! Haven't read about Irene yet.

Sarah, yes indeed Irene appears in Miss Mapp...you have lost your marbles...hahaha. I'll find her when I have a bit of time...quaint Irene. Not a major role...she wouldn't want that. But she does appear at bridge parties and the like......

I don't know about everyone else, but when I watched the tapes I thought Irene was a little on the odd side????

Judy

Judy was it the part where she said the boys think I'm a girl and the girls think I'm a boy? I think that was part of Benson's depiction of her as "outre."

I didn't like her in the tapes at all. I don't know what I would have expected, tho or how I, if I were the director, would have shown her. I thought Major Benjy was perfect, and since I saw Georgie before I read the book, Hawthorne seared himself totally on my mind. Can't imagine another one, would like for those who read the book and then saw the tapes to elaborate on their feelings there.

Can't imagine another Mapp, but have always liked Prunella Scales's work. Fawlty Towers was a hoot, you'd never know it was the same woman.

That smile showing all those TEETH.

The TILLING NEWSLETTER says that "Quaint Irene was probably inspired by Radclyffe Hall. She and Una Troubridge lived in Rye and were friends of [Benson's]; he called them 'the girls.' Benson's maid, Ivy Robbins, suggests she may have been named after his friend, the Marquess of Carisbrooke, who was called Irene and was also a friend of Benson's. He dedicated MAPP & LUCIA and LUCIA'S PROGRESS to the Marquess, who was in fact a Mountbatten. The marchioness's maiden name was Lady Irene Frances Adza Denison."

The writer of the Tilling Newsletter lives in Rye today, it's interesting, isn't it, this long recitation of pedigrees?

However, in a later version of the newsletter the writer says that Quaint Irene (pronounced correctly by only one of the actors in the video, Prunella Scales as "Irenie mine,") may also have been based on the composer Ethel Smyth who was a "supporter of the suffragette movement; Grermanophile; and someone who absolutely believes in her own art and who passionately and emotionally admires various women, usually older than herself, just as Irene adored Lucia. So it is enlightening to discover that Ethel once had a maid 'six feet one inch in her stockings,' (shades of Lucy, Irene's maid), though that one refused to feed the dog or scrub the floor and was sent packing."

On another note they say they are trying to achieve (this is in 1989) a commerative plaque on 25 Brompton Square, Benson's London home from 1915-1940, and they had their project "shortlisted," I hope to go see if they succeeded. As well as the setting for "Upstairs, Downstairs."

A bit more on Ethel Smythe: She was a devoted friend of Benson's mother and sister, an acquaintence of Virginia Woolf. When the bicycle was invented in 1890 she was one of the first to take to it, to the horror of her relations. She took lessons in the bicycle and "her first solitary practices took place on the gravel sweep in front of Lambeth Palace, where she found herself giving turns to the Dean of Windsor."

If you have read the entire series you know who else took bicycle lessons and the result! hahahahaha

Found a nice little poem by Benson if I can scan it in here....

Ginny

I had an Aunt Isabel Irene... And being of English extraction.. we all called her Isabel Irenee.. I only ever heard it Irene, when I went to high school.

At least when I walk into school this week I'm feeling quite proper as I'm presently listening to Queen Lucia on tape during the hour commute. This year I am the oldest faculty member - have yet to discover some delicious soul with whom to share Lucia's woes - she's just been disillusioned about her guru. OHM.

Maida! Make a whole faculty of converts! OHM!! hahahahahaha, LOOK what they're missing!

Ginny