It is with a lot of pleasure and anticipation that Pedln and I invite everyone to help in unravelling the strangest mystery. The book is a magic carpet that will whirl you away to worlds you could never imagine.

If you enjoyed Eco's The Name of the Rose, or John Milton's Lost Paradise, or Homer's Iliad, you will enjoy My Name is Red. The sorrow is real. The pleasure comes with a shudder.

Jonathan

I've had this on my shelf for two years now - and so I will pop in when I can - I heard this story was his best -

Hi, Pedln and Jonathan ~
Well, we readers sure lucked out to have you two as DLs.

May I climb aboard the magic carpet?
Seraglio, eh?
Mozart's opera may be some help there.

Barbara and Mippy, welcome to you both. Do climb on board. And while we're waiting and flying around, you may want to step over to the Pomegranate Soup discussion where there is a lot being said about the intricacies of Persian carpet design.

Mippy, I'm not acquainted with Seraglio. It must be time to google and see where he/she/it fits in with Mozart.

There is a Mozart opera, not well known, called the Abduction from the Seraglio.

Or another musical suggestion: Scherharazadi (?spelling; didn't Google, so must be wrong.)
This must be mentioned somewhere in Pomegranate Soup, since the music is running through my head.
Anyway, thanks for the welcome note.

Sometime before March 1 will definitely get my hands on a copy of "My Name is Red" and join this group. I wouldn't miss it! How could I resist "Suspense and suspicion in the sultan's seraglio. Unholy disputes in the courts of Allah. Murder and intrigue in the byzantine alleys and ateliers of Old Istanbul.?!!"

I am agog. (No, I didn't say I'm a Gog! Nor a Magog!)

Babi

That slip of the pen may have given away some of the surprise that a reader looks for in a mystery such as RED, something I wanted to avoid. Not that 'library' should lessen anyone's curiousity. After all, remember what happened in the library in The Name of the Rose.

I must say I'm grateful that you have drawn my attention to the slip. First Mippy. Then Pedln picked up on it. And now Babi has drawn attention to it. That bodes well. Such keen detection of detail will serve us well later.

Barbara, I hope you'll be dropping by very often.

I invite everyone to drop by in this predicussion to share some knowledge or thoughts about Turkey. Or about the author. With anything which might put this book in context. It's technically an historical novel set in late 16c Ottoman empire. If you have swum the Hellespont we would like to hear about it. Did you get lost in the crooked, endless streets of Istanbul? Did you visit a mosque? Did you see the paintings in the Topkapi? Did you bring home a carpet? Will it fly? That sort of thing.

But if you're reading the book, don't give anything away. Save it for the discussion. Then again it may not even be apropos then, since it looks like there may be six or seven chapters that we will not be discussing, because of indelicate subject matter.

Jonathan

Jonathan

Allow me to congratulate you on what you did with Balzac. It was wonderful.

Hi Pedln and Jonathan,

Pedln, I am really enjoying "Pomegranate Soup." Ann added a wealth of material about Persian carpets.

Hi Traude!

I am like Babi. Who can resist what is written in the header? Wow! I hope my heart can stand all the intrigue and the travel through bazaars,etc.

I am already signed up for "Founding Mothers." I might have to hop on one foot. Then, hop on the other foot. No matter, I don't mind it. All of these fantastic discussions are well worth it.

Babi, your mention of Gog and Magog made me chuckle.

Mippy, I love magic carpets. Your lime color paints a picture of the wonder in magic carpets.

Hats, hop as much as you like. That and a bit of mystery will be good for your heart.

Interesting Time Article about the author...!

Now, how did gog and agog ever come together in such a surprising application as Babi makes of it. And who were Gog and Magog, anyways?

It seems they they were two luckless Romans, in the time of Emperor Diocletian. Forced to get out of town quickly, they fled by boat, Some say they were set adrift. But that came earlier. Gog and Magog were the descendants of the aforesaid Romans and the British demons they fell in with, when they drifted ashore in Albion (England). The whole bunch were extirpated by the natives, except for G&M, who were dragged to London for portering duties at the royal palace. Fourteen-foot tall effigies of them still stand at the London Guildhall. (as of 1948)

Biblical allusions are even more interesting.

This information I got from my Benet's Reader's Encyclopedia. And thanks, Babi, for sending me there. I had been wondering where I could get some information about 'jinns'. We'll be hearing a lot about them. So, here it is:

' 'jinn'. Demons of Arabian mythology, according to fable created from fire two thousand years before Adam was made of earth, and said to be governed by a race of kings named Suleyman, one of whom "built the pyramids." Their chief abode is the mountain Kaf, and they assume the forms of serpents, dogs, cats, monsters, or even human beings, and become invisible at pleasure. The evil jinn are hideously ugly, but the good are exquisitely beautiful.'

It goes on to say that 'jinn' is a plural; its singular is jinnee. In any case we'll be expected to live with them once we get into the book.

Hats! How nice to see you here. From what I've seen, you're a born book juggler. That's a fine way to go.

Jonathan

Barbara, thanks for the interesting link. Who is this author of ours, who writes so well. A 'low-key rebel.' Refuses awards. What is he up to with his books?

Here you've had MY NAME IS RED on your shelf for two years! That sent me off to my shelves looking for unread books. Anything having to do with Turkey. Voila! THE TOWERS OF TREBIZOND, by Rose Macaulay. Published in 1956. This is a light read. Delightful. About her travels in Turkey. Along with much else, she keeps mentioning the many fellow-travellers who are writing their 'Turkey books'!

One hears of the Old Turkey, and beginning about 100 years ago, about the New Turkey. So, naturally, one wonders, is Pamuk part of the Old, or part of the New?

Jonathan- Never heard of the Roman Gog and Magog. I know their predeccesors from the Bible.

Magog was the grandson of Noah. His descendants settled in Northern Israel (perhaps Syria ). Later, in the Bible , Barbarians from the North were called people from the land of Magag. These people were considered excellent,skilled warriors.

Gog is mentioned in Ezekiel (38:2:3) as the Prince of Rosh Meshech from the North who will attack Israel and destroy it. The slaughter will be so great that it will take seven months to bury the dead.

Today Gog and Magog are used as an aphorism for the Nazis who tried to destroy the Jewish peeople.

Judy

Re: Pamuk-Old or new? I have his latest book"Snow" and in that novel he is the "new" investigating the "old.

Judy

The Jean Genie

This could be more familiar than I thought. According to Barbara's article Pamuk includes Sufism in his books. We have quite a few dedicated followers of Sufi in the family:

Sufi

I haven't checked either of these articles for accuracy. I probably don't know enough about either topic to do so.

Kleo

Welcome Judy

Talk about a twisted geneology! Little wonder that Babi wanted no part of them.

Welcome Kleo

Yes, the Sufis come into the picture. Especially the dervish variety. At least I think the two are related.

Jonathan

Well, quite a few Sufis are dervish, if not all. I don't know.

I don't really know much about Sufism in spite of living much of my life around folks who dabble in Sufism. I don't know much about Christian monks in spite of having some of those in the family, also.

I'll have to read about Sufism, I suppose. At least I can just borrow a few books from someone in the family.

Turkey is where whirling/dancing dervishes, the Mevlevi order, are from.

This will be an interesting journey and call for Turkish coffee, one of the beverages of the gods.

Kleo

Try the first chapter. Available in the About the Autor link above. Scroll down on the left.

Or, here's a short extract from a later chapter:

'On the route to the Phanar Gate, there was an eerie greenish-yellow light above us, but it wasn't the light of the moon. In this light, the old, faithful nighttime appearance of Istanbul comprised of cypress trees, leaden domes, stone walls, wooden houses and tracts ravaged by fire was overtaken by an unfamiliarity such as might be caused by an enemy fortress. As we ascended the hill, in the distance we saw the fire that burned somewhere beyond the Bayazid Mosque.

'In the heavy darkness, we came across an ox-cart half-loaded with sacks of flour heading toward the city walls, and parting with two silver coins, we procured a ride. Black had the pictures with him, and he sat down carefully. As I lay back and watched the low clouds glow from the fire, two raindrops fell upon my helmet.

'After a long journey, as we searched for the deserted dervish lodge we roused the dogs in the neighborhood which, in the middle of the night, seemed to be abandoned. Although we saw that lamps were now burning in a few stone houses in response to our clamor, it was only the fourth door we knocked upon that opened to us, and a man in skullcap, gaping at us by the light of his lamp as if we were the living dead, gave us directions to the deserted dervish lodge without even sticking his nose out into the quickening rain - merely adding that once there, we'd have no peace from the evil jinns, demons and ghosts.

'In the garden of the dervish lodge we were greeted by the calm of proud cypresses, indifferent to the rain and the stench of rotting leaves. I brought my eye up to one of the cracks between the wooden planks of the dervish-lodge walls, and later, to the shutter of a small window, whereupon, by the light of an oil lamp, I saw the menacing shadow of a man performing his prayers - or perhaps, a man pretending for our sake, to pray.'

According to Hoja Nasrudin? According to my house plant? Is there a glossary in the book?

Kleo

Kleo- I remember Nasrudin from the Arabian Nights which I read as a child.. He is a mystic court jester or some such person who has endless adventures and teaches morals in a way that the simplest and the most expert can learn from them.Example:

Some seekers came asking Nasrudin for truth. He said for truth you will have to pay a lot.

Why should we have to pay for truth? they said.

Have you noticed said Nasruddin, that it is the scarcity of the thing that determines its value.

Judy

In today's Financial Times it states that Turkey has dropped charges on Orhan Pamuk, apparently on January 23.

http://us.ft.com/ftsuperpage/

That was good news! I hadn't known...

Sufism is the mystical belief in Islam, I think like the Kabbalah is in Judaism.

When I studied in Istanbul the non-Sufi Moslems did not approve of Sufism. I don't know how it is now. In order to get to a meeting I had to have a map drawn out for me and it was quite difficult to locate. At that time it was also illegal.

On my return to the U.S. I was fortunate enough to find a small mosque with a small group of people who had been on a 'journey' in and around the Holy Land to find light and understanding, and they had met with Sufis in the Turkish part of their trip. They came back to U.S. and make a community of Sufis here.

I was privileged to see the Whirling Dervishes, devotees of Rumi, a Sufi at the Istanbul Festival in 1989. I don't know how they do it. It's quite impressive albeit a little boring after a while. The music is haunting however.

By the way...if Turkish coffee makes men mad, you should try Raki--an absinthe-like liqueur very popular in Turkey in fact, I think the 'national' drink, even though Moslems are not permitted to drink alcohol. They are, however, quite fanatical about eating pork. Decisions, decisions...

Alliemae

Alliemae, I was waiting for you to show up. In fact I was counting on you, after hearing in another discussion that you have spent some time in Turkey.

So Sufism is alive and well, except in Turkey. I wonder if it has gone underground there, after being banned by Ataturk in the 1920s, I believe.

That remark about Turkish coffee driving men mad must be understood from a religious point of view. Those who love it believe it clears the brain, sharpens the reason.

And I'm not sure I know exactly who a hoja is. What a phrase. Congrats, Kleo. Like the man said: I wish I'd coined that. Yes, we must find a glossary. There are so many other designations of a cultural nature, which we could get more clearly in our minds. Like sultans and shas, mullahs and pashas, and beys.

Judy, I like your reference to The Arabian Nights. It seems there is another Nasrudin out there. And it seems, like the Nasrudin in our book, he teaches the truth. By the sound of it there is not enough to go around, and that one may even have to risk ones life for it.

In any case the allusion to Arabian Nights is very useful. It will soon be evident that our book is nothing more nor less than tales of Turkish Nights and Turkish Delights.

Jonathan

Hi I am new here, I would love to join in with this book. I have never been to Istanbul (well i travelled through the airport) but i have close connections to Turkey as my partner is from southern Turkey - I visit him as often as possible.

Can't wait to start this book.

Cheryl

Jonathan - Bey is turkish for Mr e.g. Jones Bey = Mr Jones

Cheryl, Welcome. We're so glad you can join us, and hey, a walk through Istanbul Airport is a lot closer the city than many of us have been. We'll be looking forward to hearing about your Turkish experiences.

Joan P -- delighted that you will be joining us also, and happy to have the benefits of your reread.

Thinking of the links to recent Pamuk news that have been posted here -- is it as difficult for the rest of you, as it is for me, to fathom what it's like to live where the wrong words, used innocently, can bring about dire consequences?

Chapter two will take you for a walk in Istanbul.

Hi Joan- Nice to meet up with you again.

Re: Snow , Pamuks latest book. I have not finished it as yet. He is angling for a Nobel Prize with this one. It is a slow read and somewhat depressing. The book is about a reporter who goes to a border town in Turkey to investigate the suicides of girls who are not allowed to wear Head Scarfs as Islam demands. There is also a beautiful woman he wants to marry involved in the mystery and who is staying at the same hotel as he. The whole town is snowed in and there is no contact with the outer world. He uses humour and poetry to lighten the atmosphere. His language is mesmerizing. I would love to have a group to discuss it with.

Looking forward to your insightful comments on what I understand is a lighter Pamuk read.

Judy

It's interesting all the whining about Pamuk pandering to the West, when Istanbul and Turkey are at the crossroads of Europe and Asia, the route from the East to the West and all.

Pamuk writes topically, it seems. In Turkey schoolgirls are forbidden to wear their headscarves, like in France. Of course, in France, schoolgirls are not forbidden to wear their crucifixes. There is a limit, it appears. Like the Danish paper which printed all the anti-Islamic cartoons, in fact, printed them simply because they sought them out, regardless of quality, but declared they did not print anti-Christian cartoons because of their poor quality.

Kleo

Got my book!

jonathan, you weren't kidding about the visual component of this novel. Pamuk fills my mind with colors, images. Intellectually stimulating, also. Fun, fun, fun. Does anyone know of a good book about Persian-style miniatures? Also, I need a Koran which I should have bought long ago. (I like to read the references he cites.) Thanks, Jonathan.

Oh gosh, I forgot to subscribe and had to hunt for Jonathan and Pedln's grand welcome. What a great group has assembled here. We even have a new member amongst us,- crispychaz. A great big welcome (again) to you.
That is exciting in itself. m-m-m Jonathan, how you tempt us with what you call "Turkish delights and Turkish Nights" How can one not be excited to check in here a couple of times a day? Allie even studied in Turkey. I love that I can ask questions of a few who have actually "been there and done that." I am ignorant of most everything about Turkey, except its capital and the location of Mt. Ararat. That's pretty sad, isn't it? The joy in being so darned ignorant is that I can learn so quickly and so vehemently thru all of your eyes. Oh this will be enjoyable.

Very gratifying to read such enthusiastic posts. The discussion promises to be lively. For newcomers, you will never meet with a crowd as congenial as this.

Looking around myself for some books on miniatures such as are talked about in the book, I found the following:

Turkish Miniatures, by G.M.Meredith-Owens. A thiry-five page booklet, published by The Trustees of the British Museum. London 1963.

Ottoman Empire in Miniatures, put out by the Ministry of Culture and Tourism of the Turkish Republic, Ankara, 1988. More than a hundred beautiful, full-page miniatures. Beautiful.

But there are excellent examples in the About the Author link above. Enjoy.

Jonathan

And over in the Pomegranate Soup discusssion you will find a link to some Turkish Delights

Bought the book several months ago and started to read it. Now I can't find it -- hope to locate by 1 Mar or will buy another. Want learn what others think about the story.

Kidsal, that's putting it in a way that we would all agree on. Find your book, buy another, steal your friend's, and then share the guilty feelings of the characters in the book, and be certain that the discussion of My Name Is Red is sure to bring out a zillion thoughts and opinions, strange conclusions, dark suspicions, and exclamations of surprise. It's a graphic novel. It's the most graphic novel I've read in a long time, taking into account the clarification of the term graphic in some recent posts in the Book Nook.

Wasn't that clever to schedule Pomegranate Soup for February? It's so obviously the appetizer to the Turkish Nights.

Jonathan, it is perfect timing. I am waiting to receive my book. I am so excited. In the meantime, I am reading the links above which are very interesting.

And I'm excited, expectantly, about the many late-night, early-morning comments you will have about the strange happenings in the book

Hi again, Just wanted to check how this group works because I have seen diiferent forums that work in different ways. It says the date for this book is March 1 - is this when people will start to read it or are people reading it now to start discussion on this date or it is ran in a completely different way?

crispychez, discussion of the book will start on March 1, and will proceed according to the schedule that Jonathan will provide -- most likely about 1/4 of the book each week. Feel free to read according to your own timetable, but the discussion should stay within the schedule -- so there aren't any spoilers for those who have not finished reading. Right now we're just having fun, but are not really discussing the book. We look forward to having you join with us.

Crispychez: Hi. Nice to have you here. I'm reading my book now, and I'll probably re-read parts of it as we discuss it starting March 1. It is really an exciting read, very different, lots of visual appeal. Have fun!

Crispychez, thanks for asking about how the discussions here work. Very relaxed, with due consideration for the wants and needs of every participant.

We're in the pre-discussion mode until March 1st. Its purpose is primarily to get a group together. Everyone is invited to post, either to express a desire to join in, or, perhaps, just to say something in a general way which may enhance the anticipation or the enjoyment of the book later on.

This is an exceptionally rich novel, so some may want to start reading as soon as they get their hands on the book.

Pedln and I will get a discussion schedule up in a week or so. We'll just work our way methodically through the book, with a short summing up day or two at the end of the month.

My preference is for considerable leeway in allowing every poster to help in setting an enjoyable pace.

Be all means, start reading. Mark all your favorite twists and turns in the plot, and get ready to share your impressions.

Jonathan

Strange isn't it, how one is quick to notice passing references to what one is taking an interest in.

In my newspaper the other day, in a story reported from Istanbul, is the mention of Sinem Dikbiyik, 'pint-sized and ebullient in expressing her love of literature, the 20-year-old spends her days selling English-language books to tourists visiting this bustling Turkish city that provides the physical link between Europe and the Middle East. She delights in guiding them to works that she feels explain Turkey and Islam to foreigners. One author she's fond of recommending is Turkey's Orhan Pamuk, whose novels often deal with the culture clash between secularism and Islam.' (Globe and Mail, Feb 9)

And again in a literary supplement, in a review of a book on early-modern Ottoman culture and society, we are told that the authors 'return us to the world of artists, intrigue and patronage of Orhan Pamuk's MY NAME IS RED.' (TLS, Jan27, 2006)

Join us, for arm-chair travel at its very best.

Jonathan

My daughter has a Turkish partner and they are soon to make their long term unofficial engagement official. She has just come back from Turkey in December on the trip to meet the prospective in laws. They still give their permission even in these days. She had already been vetted by an old family friend who lives here in NZ. They took lots of photos of Istanbul where Cenks parents live. I could scan some and email them to someone in the discussion who could post them here if you like. Cenks parents live close to the Bosphorus (sp?) in an affluent part of Istanbul. There is two parts to Istanbul. The natives call them the Asian quarter and the European quarter.

Carolyn

Carolyn, what type of wedding will your daughter have, and where will it be? Will you travel to Turkey someday? I'd love to see some pix.

I've just requested My Name is Red from my intralibrary loan and should have it before the March 1 starting date...then, I'll buy a copy I'm sure!

I am really enjoying all the posting. It's great that we have a pre-posting time or we might all go MAD waiting for the discussion to begin.

Carolyn, I also, like MrsSherlock, would love to see pics of the wedding.

Also, will your daughter have (or did she have while in Turkey) a 'henna painting party'?

Oh dear, I forgot to ask (or maybe I missed this in one of your postings, Carolyn, is the wedding to be in Turkey?

Alliemae

Alliemae -- hurrah for your book!!!

Carolyn, Patwest would be the one to send pictures to. She knows how to make them the right size for SeniorNEt, and could put them up. I don't know if she has broadband, so just one or two at a time, and if you can resize them smaller, that would be good. It will be great to see them.

Is a henna painting party part of a Turkish wedding? What does it involve?

Afghans have henna parties sometimes before weddings and use henna at weddings. I think this was mentioned in Kite Runner, but only the part where the bride and groom mark each other's hands with henna.

Kleo

I've seen henna pointing at weddings in India in a movie. It lasts for weeks, they say.

Henna Night

"The ceremony held one day before the wedding in the home of bride and groom is called the henna night. It generally takes place at the girl’s home and among women, although either side can elect to host it.

A flag is planted on the roof of the man’s home at an early hour on the day henna night will be held. This is done by a specially chosen standard-bearer in the company of a large crowd, who celebrate the occasion amid great festivities. In some places, a meal called flag bread is handed out to the crowd. Flag-planting means the wedding has officially started.

On the day the henna night is to be held, or a few days earlier, the trousseau is taken from the girl’s home and brought to the man’s, and the bridal chamber is prepared. The trousseau is sometimes exhibited to the guests for a few days in the girl’s home before the wedding, and in the man’s home during and after it. It is a widespread tradition that someone sits on the trousseau chest, asking for a tip as it is taken from the girl’s home. In addition, in the early hours of the day the henna night is to be held, a group of women from the bridegroom’s family take the henna that will be placed on the bride’s hands and feet, her clothes and the food that will be offered to the guests to the girl’s home, again to the accompaniment of great festivities. The women who gather in the girl’s home on the henna night have fun for a while, but later try to make her cry by singing sad songs. Henna that has earlier kneaded with water is brought in on a tray surrounded by candles and placed in the middle of the room. In some places, the henna is first put on the hands of the bride and then distributed to the guests; in other areas the henna is first distributed to the guests, and only after everybody has left is it placed on the bride’s hands. If the woman so wishes, henna can also be placed on her feet and hair. Considerable attention is paid to charging a woman with a happy marriage, called the “başı bütün” (meaning “whose head is complete”, In a sense, this describes her as someone who has a complete family with husband and children and whose marriage is whole, not separated by divorce) to knead and distribute the henna and apply it to the girl’s hand. The woman places the henna on one of the bride’s hands, and a young girl places it on the other. Before the henna is applied, coins or gold are also placed in her hands."

http://www.kulturturizm.gov.tr/portal/kultur_en.asp?belgeno=8872

I'm trying to find some specifically Turkish patterns of the Henna application. I know that the guests have some choice. A colleague of mine went to a henna party while we were studying in Istanbul and chose just to have the tip of her little finger done. Those parties are filled with singing and dancing and food. I do have friends from the South of India who have also had Henna Parties before their weddings. It is a meaningful ceremony. I'll also attempt to find out more about that.

If I find patterns online I'll pass on the link.

Alliemae

No the wedding will be here. It will be held at a friends Turkish restaurant on the Auckland Waterfront drive. I am not sure how the ceremony will go it could have a Muslim officiater plus a Christian Minister or alternatively a Marriage celebrant who will do a tailor made ceremony for them. Vanessa will keep her faith. It will have a Turkish flavour and family and friends will be invited as per Turkish custom including very small children and babies. It will be a fun wedding and they chose a place where the children can go outside and play on a grassed fenced area. They will probably have a marriage party with a blessing next time they go to Turkey for family and friends who will miss the NZ wedding.

Carolyn

Carolyn, I bet you are very busy. At the same time, I bet you are so excited.

My book has arrived! I will have ample time to finish the two I'm presently reading and get started on 'Red' before March 1.

I see we have an international wedding going on. Best wishes to the bride and groom!!

(I think that's close to the color of the palms after the henna is wiped off. According to "Bookseller of Kabul".)

..Babi

Carolyn, the wedding plans sound wonderful. I wish all joy to the Bride and Groom!

And what a nice idea...a safe place outside where the children can play. Again, I hope you'll post pictures.

Alliemae

Babi, glad your book has arrived. I'm trying to do as you -- finish up on some other readings first.

Carolyn, the wedding sounds exciting and seems to be very well-planned. It should be a joyous occasion.

The way Vanessa and Cenk do things it will not be a wedding in the next few months its likely to be in 12mths. However first they have a big official engagement party which will be held at my sons home in Greenhithe on the North Shore. He has a wonderful indoor/outdoor entertaining area. It has been very hard for the two young people to decide where they will live as they say whatever they decided its going to cause pain to one family. Cenk thinks it would be harder for Vanessa to live in Istanbul than it is for him to live in Auckland. Its a huge city and she is an island dweller from a country where the entire population is only four million. She said she got terrible claustrophobia in the city and had to walk by the Bosphorus each day to get rid of the feeling of being hemmed in. Cenk has a good job here and is in line for partner in the future. They are both accountants. Vanessa is Chartered and Cenk is just studying for his professionals. They met at Auckland University when they were both students.

carolyn

Won't Vanessa be more comfortable living in a non-muslim country also? Do Turkish women wear chadors or veils? Are Turkish women able to practice professions in Turkish society? Surely NZ is safer in general than Turkey

Turkish women in Istanbul are very liberated. They are dentists doctors you name it. Cenks mum is involved heavily in her family's business of import and export sports clothing. Cenks dad is a retired Accountant and he does all the housework while Cenks mum works. It is not uncommon in Turkey. There is also a huge Foreign women in Business club where ex pats from all over the world meet and have outings etc. There are a lot of foreign business women married to Turks and working in Turkey in all sorts of fields. You can wear or not wear a head scarf and most women do not wear the Chador.

Searching for informaiton about Muslim Miniatures I found this web site with a very little bit of explanation about the different types.

http://www.youngartists.com/mphatouf.htm

My search continues. I'm going to look for works on Bahzid next. BTW us there a particular edition of the Koram any can recommend?

Excuse the typs, again. I meant Behzad. And books on this subject and this artist reguire mucho dinero. However, talk about serendipity, today's Oregonian reviews a book, by a U of O graduate and poet Lillias Bevar, with ties to this historical period, Bellini in Istanbul. See it here:

He's one of those people who hold others responsible for his shortcomings.

BTW, where is everybody?

I hope you're keeping a low profile, there, in Salem.

I'm called to lunch, but I must tell you that my great-, great-, grandmother of twenty generations ago was burned to death as a heretic in Holland. I would never go back there.

Jonathan

MRS. SHERLOCK, those are gorgeous! If you had been here, you would have heard a lot of 'ummm!', 'oooh', and 'aaahh'.

JONATHAN, maybe you could save that link to the heading, so we can look at them while reading the book.

Was your poor g-g-g-g-grandmother a victim of the Inquisition? With those guys, you were either guilty, or you died proving your innocence. I once read that vulnerable people with the means to do so would discreetly depart before the Inquisitors got there. I don't know if that's true, but it certainly makes sense to me.

Babi

The paintings in Mrs Sherlock's link in post 64 are gorgeous. Nobody should miss the pleasure of looking at the dozen or so miniatures. It must certainly be part of the discussion heading. Unquestionably, looking at this artwork will give the book more meaning.

Babi, my great, great no doubt was given the inquisitorial treatment before being put to death for refusing to believe certain doctrines. A sad consequence of sectarian differences. Protest, as in protestant, could be fatal in an intolerable community. There were so many thousands who suffered martyrdom for their beliefs. Sad, isn't it?

Jonathan

Isn't it still going on?

Mrs. Sherlock,

Thank you for the beautiful paintings. I am glad Jonathan is putting the links in the heading.

Jonathan,

I feel very sad about what your great, great, great grandmother suffered. What a horrible experience. Intolerance is what causes so many people to suffer wrongly. Talk the way I talk, walk the way I walk, think the way I think or your life is worth nothing. It's just so unjust.

Firm Christian tho' I am, I also decline to believe certain doctrines. I don't bring up the particular subjects where it might give offence, but I probably would have been in trouble back in the bad old days. And Mrs. Sherlock is quite right...there are still places where contrary opinions are punished. Still, we have made some progress in the area of freedom of thought and expression.

Babi

Hi Traude,

Thanks!

That seems like such a wise policy, Babi. It is especially apt in times such as these, when we're seeing so many offensive cartoons being traded. Such protesting around the world. It makes Pamuk's book very relevant, with its exploration of illustrative art in an Islamic setting. What a strange world he paints for the reader.

The beauty of the art. Thanks for taking us to the Topkapi, Traude. Or, rather, pointing out the way to get there, via Google. Pamuk must have spent many hours there admiring the treasures hidden from the world until just a few years ago. And to make a brilliant story out of it all. We're in for a fantastic journey with MY NAME IS RED.

I'm working on some focus questions for starters. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Do we need any at all with such a dramatic first page? A shocker, isn't it?

Jonathan

Here's the Topkapi Miniatures link: http://www.ee.bilkent.edu.tr/~history/topkapi.html

"but I probably would have been in trouble back in the bad old days" BaBi

SeniorNet would be the death of us all in the bad old days.

Jonathon, no hints, please. I'd rather dive in without expectations.

Kleo

Mrs. Sherlock,

I am reading parts of your link. It is soooo interesting. I have little or no knowledge about Turkey. Only what I have read in fairy tales or folk tales.

Somewhere in Mrs. Sherlock's link there are buildings or paintings which use a lot of tiles. Those tiles made me think of mosaics. Is Turkey where the art of doing mosaics began?

Mosaics have been used by many cultures for 1000s of years before the Greeks elevated it to an art form, maybe Hellenstic. Tiles are used extensively in Byzantine art, Islamic art and in Roman art. Roman floors are a particularly well known example.

A very famous mosaiced structure is St. Sofia's Cathedral in Ukraine:

St. Sophia's Cathedral Icons

Click on one of the thumbnails to see the tiles.

A famous mosque with tiles that I am familiar with is the Blue Mosque in Herat, because I've seen a zillion pictures of Afghans standing in front of it:

The Great Mosque at Herat, Afghanistan

Click the forward arrow once to see a wall, then again to see a detail of the wall of the mosque.

Kleo

Kleo,

Thanks for the links. The Blue Mosque in Herat is gorgeous, beautiful work.

What fabulous art! Did you notice how in the earlier works red and gold predominated. Everything had those colors in it. (That I saw.) Then in the 16th century we see those gorgeous deep blues. Those are the ones I like best. And then, the blue mosque itself. A feast for the eyes.

Babi

The Blue Mosque is quite a feast for the eyes. I've yearned to see it in person since I first saw a picture of an uncle standing in front of it ages ago. Notice the picture is 1974 but the woman is wearing a burqa--not invented by the Taliban, who invented nothing.

The Islamic tiles are interesting because at some point they came to designing the tiles to fit, rather than designing with geometric tiles. You can see the interesting shapes of the tiles on the Blue Mosque close-up.

I studied tiles many years ago, they are mathematically fascinating. I have a great book, long out of print, of Middle Eastern tiles through the centuries, a huge and beautiful cloth-bound art book published in England.

Kleo

Babi,

I did notice the abundance of reds and golds in the paintings. Then, on the cover of the book the man is wearing a red cloak. There is some gold on the cover too.

The blue is really beautiful. It's my favorite too. The man on the cover is wearing a blue garment under his cloak. The arrow man is wearing blue too. Surely, these colors must have a significance. Will we learn the significance as we read and post?

The title, to me, is very curious. Why is his name Red? Maybe I missed that information in the header. Is that something we will learn once we open the book? Is the name Red common in Turkey?

Kleo,

You use the words "mathematically fascinating." Are you a mathematician? Then, you must have a very logical mind. I bet your logical mind will help you solve the mystery.

Jonathan and Pedln,

I have so many questions.That's because I know nothing about Turkey. Once we are reading I guess my answers will come. That's because I know nothing about Turkey. Is the man on the cover of the book a sultan? What is the meaning of the word sultan? Does it just mean a king?

I know many of you have lived in or made visits to Turkey.

Hi Guys,

It was great to see that some of you appreciated my photos.

Yesterday and this morning I updated my website, I split it into two parts, one page for UK photos and one for overseas photos, I added a few more pics while at it. Check it out again, http://peteloud.uggle.co.uk/photos/photos.html

Yes, Pete, really great picture of the Blue Mosque, and I appreciate that you included a close-up of the wall, then the tiles, plus one could simply move through the pictures. It was very nicely done.

You also have good maps of Afghanistan.

Thank you,

Kleo

That Napoleon sealed his fate, planted the seeds of his downfall, when he divorced Josephine.

What does that have to do with the book we are about to discuss? Well, simply, that Napoleon's fortunes took a turn for the worse when the Turkish Sultan, means Lord, I think, Hats, when the Sultan withdrew his support. Persuaded to do so, in all likelihood, by his favorite in the Seraglio. And that was none other than Josephine's cousin Aimée, both having grown up together in Martinique, before being whirled away to their place in history. Aimée was abducted on the high seas on her way home, after spending a few years at a French finishing school for girls. Abducted by pirates, and presented to the Sultan as worthy of his royal entourage. Bright as well as beautiful, Aimée not only mothered a future sultan, but soon ruled the royal roost at the Ottoman court, at the center of many a scheme of political machination.

Pete, that is a stunning photo of the blue mosque. You must have used a polarizer to bring out the color like that. Interesting, that you found it in Herat. The city is used to represent a whole school of art in the books chronology.

Kleo, with no expectations, you are in for the greatest surprise. With red your favorite color, this book will simply overwhelm you...

Mrs Sherlock, thanks for the link to the Topkapi. We'll keep it handy. You also asked about a good Koran translation. Perhaps someone could answer that. I'm using a Mentor Book edition published 50 years ago. References to it come up a number of times. I'm sure we'll want to look them up.

Hats, I'm overjoyed by your expectations...

Jonathan

I am sure that Vanessa said there is a mosque in Istanbul called the Blue Mosque also with blue mosaics. I am sure I saw the Mosque in a travel doco we did here on Istanbul. My book is waiting at my nearest library branch to pick up. We have several copies in our system but they are all on the shelf and in our online catalogue it has no comments in the comments column, that is readers comments, so obviously the copies have not been requested often, if at all.

Carolyn

Yes, the one in Istanbul is called that by foreigners because of the blue tiles on the interior:

Blue Mosque in Istanbul

In fact, there are a number of blue mosques.

The most famous one in Afghanistan, to which Muslims make piligramages, is actually not the one in Herat, but the one in Mazar-e-sharif, famed stronghold of the Northern Alliance. Herat is more visited by Western tourists, though, and I have family who live there:

Blue Mosque of Mazar-e-sharif

There's a very famous and huge one in Iran:

Iranian Blue Mosque

My Blue Mosque will always be the one in Herat because of seeing pictures of family in front of it for so many years.

If you've seen pictures of the Middle East you've seen towns with blue mosques all over the place. I wonder if there was a time for this, or something about the architecture, but turquoise or azure blue are colors for the domes of mosques.

Kleo

After posting the links to the Blue Mosque in Herat I went to one of my cousin's house--my son was over and craving Afghan food. We browsed through an album of pictures of her last trip to Afghanistan. And there she was in Herat, standing in front of the Blue Mosque.

I'm not a mathematician, although I took 3 years of math in college and paid for my junior/senior years in part with a math scholarship. I've always loved math in school and took math courses as the fluff to keep my GPA up. I couldn't believe one could get 5 credits and an easy A to sit in a classroom and discuss differential equations, linear algebra, or multivariable calculus with a professor.

Kleo

The translation of the Koran by Abdullah Yusuf Ali, is excellent, recommended by Mahlia (from the Islam folder). It has both the Arabic and the English translation side by side, with excellent footnotes and various appdices. It is a bit strange at first, because it is printed in the Eastern fashion. with the spine on the left, and the pages placed from right to left in the book. Or front to back.

Babi

One problem that gnaws at me about the side-by-sides is that Muslims consider the Arabic text sacred and that it should be read as if reading from a sacred object. I have a side-by-side, maybe the one BaBi recommends, but I use a slapped together English translation if I want to look something up.

Kleo

BaBi, thanks, sounds like it will enhance the experioence to read it as Muslims do. I'll check it out.

Bubble, you're not late. And how nice of you to come along on this edition of reading our way around the world. You are probably closer to the scene of action than the rest of us. You're first impression of the book is right on. It's all color and smell. Served up in splendid narrative style. Fantastic detail woven together for a magical, mystical flying carpet.

Kleo, most of us can only envy you for seeing the aesthetics in math. I must admit I'm blown away with wonder looking at a classroom blackboard covered with math symbols. It's so obviously a language designed to explain and open our world to contemplation. I would certainly like to hear more of the emotions felt by the mathematician when he shrieks Eureka! Perhaps the equations of mathematics will someday bring us all together. With the Einsteins and Picassos of the world being the new prophets.

Thanks for your help with the Koran, Babi. Of course, I should have thought of Mahlia. Unless she's very busy, maybe she'll look in on us sometime.

Jackie, we're counting on you for discerning clues in the mosques and coffeshops of old Istanbul.

Jonathan

You get used to flipping the pages in a different way rather soon. I'm studying Arabic script, using it to learn to write in Farsi. My script book opens with the spine on the right, my Farsi language books all with the spine on the left. My first day with a pile of books going back and forth I sometimes tried to flip the script book upside down for some reason.

Jonathan, yes it's a fascinating language, and it speaks directly to me. The unique thing about a mathematical eureka is it comes with its own proof that it's right.

Kleo

"If you've seen pictures of the Middle East you've seen towns with blue mosques all over the place. I wonder if there was a time for this, or something about the architecture, but turquoise or azure blue are colors for the domes of mosques. "

Azure blue is found not only on domes of mosques but also on the ouside walls of houses, on front doors, on gates. In Moslem countries that azure blue is said to protect against evil eye. I've seen it everywhere in Lebanon and in the Arab towns of Israel.

Oh, cool Bubble, I didn't know that. It's such a beautiful color it must offend the evil eye.

Kleo

Bubble,

I am glad you told us the significance of the blue. It is so beautiful. Blue is my favorite color. Those blue mosques bring a restfulness to the eyes, a feeling of peace. In a way that's ironic because the Middle East is in such turmoil at this time. Is that the way the rest of you think too?

Barbara,

Are you here? Barbara, at one time, had a whole book about symbols. I bet her book would come in handy here.

Hats, well, most of the specific blue mosques we've been discussing aren't in the Middle East, just the one in Iran.

There is a lot of turmoil in the ME today, though.

Kleo

Kleo, thanks. I am getting all of these countries mixed up. I'm not that good at geography or math either.

Yes, if anyone doubts these men are not men of God, look at what they will do. They do not want people worshipping God, they want people worshipping them. This means that houses of worship are fair game. Idolatry, pure and simple. That's why there are so many posters of bin Laden: he wants people idolizes him.

Hats, geography and math are intimately related.

Kleo

Talking about the evil eye. Every house in Turkey has one of those emblems to protect from the evil eye. Vanessa brought back bracelets for the grands which also have the symbol on them and are said to protect from the evil eye.

Carolyn

Yes Hats, your memory serves you well... the book is a classic... An Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Traditional Symbols by J.C.Cooper - I recently added the Dictionary of Symbols, Cultural Icons & The Meanings Behind Them by Hans Biedermann

Blue: Truth, the Intellect, revelation, wisdom, loyalty, fidelity, constancy, chastity, magnanimity, prudence, piety, peace, contemplation, coolness, feminine principle of the waters, Great Mother, sky gods, Azure Dragon, the void, primordial simplicity and infinite space, mystery, emotional moderation, ability to receive and release the external -

Amerindian: the sky, peace
Buddhist: the coolness of the heavens above and the waters below; the wisdom of the Dharma-Dhatu.
Chinese: The heavens; clouds; the Azure Dragon of the East, Spring, wood.
Christian: Heaven; heavenly truth; eternity; faith; fidelity, the color of the Virgin Mary as queen of Heaven, in poetry Mary is called the "Blue Lily", Jesus teaches in a blue garment
Gnostic: Baptism by water
Graeco-Roman: Attribute of Zeus/Jupiter and Hera/Juno as sky deities, tin, Venus, blue amulets neutralize the evil eye
Hebrew [Qabalism] Mercy
Hindu: the blue rain-cloak of Indra -- Vishnu is colored blue
Sumerian: bond between the underworld and the waters
Mayan: Defeat of an enemy
Egypt: with the sky-god Amon the deepest and least substantial color, the medium of truth, the transparency of the void to come in air, water, crystal, diamonds.
Norse: god Odin has a blue mantle
German: liberals, drunk [bluish color of cheeks and noses of heavy drinkers]
Irish: ancient Picts dyed themselves blue when going to war.

Barbara, thank you. I am sure those books will come in handy throughout the discussion.

BARBARA, what a fascinating listing. Just look at all the meanings one color has for people of different backgrounds. I've written down the titles and authors of the two book you mention. They would make such excellent references. Who knows...the understanding of the Turkish view of a particular symbol could be of great help in deciphering some the mystery in "Red"

Babi

What colorful posts here, this morning. I'm switching to blue. One should feel comfortable anywhere in the world, wearing blue. With the exception of Germany and Ireland, it seems. Can't unerstand why the former would want to get tipsy fighting the blues, or the latter want to go to war wearing the color of peace. Strange world.

'geography and math are intimately related' How interesting. But one hears that also about music and math. And poetry, once you learn how to take its measure. Isn't a great deal of Persian art and architecture an outlet for the creative mind in an otherwise theocratic society?

Beware, the evil eye is everywhere in old Istanbul.

The fun of learning to read from right to left. I remember pausing in the middle of a sentence, to ponder the meaning of a Hebrew word. Once I had the meaning fixed and was ready to resume reading...confusion...lost my sense of direction! But when I could pick up a book and turn automatically to the back of the book to begin...I've learned since that beginnings and endings are equally good as starting points

We do get to understand the turmoil in the ME a little better after reading Red.

Jonathan

Here is a before photo of the mosque in Iraq destroyed by terrorists, the building does have lots of blue tiles, you can see a bit in the upper right hand corner, but I could not find a picture of these:

Shi'ite Shrine in Askari

You can see the tiles a bit in a smaller picture from the Shanghai News after the bombing:

Shi'ite Shrine in Askari, Iraq after Terrorist Attack

I tried to find a picture on-line of the mosque my family attends in Hayward (well, where the Muslims pray and the rest of us go to mourn with family). It is very pretty with a blue dome and lots of blue tilings. I could find only one picture of part of the inside:

Afghan Mosque in America

I will try to remember to take a picture, though, next time I am there. The woman in the picture on the bottom is my cousin's aunt, I eat regularly at her daughter's house, and I recognize a couple of women in the other pictures.

Kleo

Yes Bubble that is the one. The Turks wear the emblem round their necks or on bracelets. The little ones got bracelets and Vanessa told Grace that it would protect her from nightmares. So far it is not working LOL! Kids of 5 -6 have problems with bad dreams and Grace is always waking her mummy.

Carolyn

What a lovely bit of folk lore Traude! Wish I could do that.

Carolyn

Guatamalan Worry Dolls

I didn't know they were worry dolls, just cute. I have a head band lined with them that I love.

I'm posting the picture just to try doing it.

The picture is from an adoption web site called familiesbyheart.com

Kleo

Graphic changed to link. Graphics and Sounds Policy.

What an original and thoughtful idea, BUBBLE. People do seem to feel better when they have something to 'worry' with when they're troubled. I think that's why you hear of people 'wringing their hands' when upset; they have nothing else to handle.

Actually, I understand there is an explanation for this. Massaging the palm, esp. the mound at the base of the thumb, is supposed to help relieve anxiety. People do seem to know by instinct what to do to help themselves in times of stress, even if they have no idea why they're doing it.

Babi

My book arrived at library and I picked it up yesterday. Starting looking through it last night. Looks like it's going to be just up my street!! And I'm on 'Spring Break' from Latin starting March 1 till the Ides, anyway!!

Alliemae

having the weekend off and enjoying all the posts immensely...also learning a lot! Alliemae

I got The Bookseller of Kabul and am reading it now. The henna party is a pretty typical party for Afghan women, but with henna added. Although I have done fancy henna with groups of Afghan women, in my family henna is usually applied to the hands at weddings. I like going to women's parties with Afghans and dancing and listening to music and eating lots of good food.

The book irritated me at first, but actually it is a good book, fun to read, and it makes you want to go to Afghanistan and see the colors and feel the heat and the dust and the spices. Thanks to whoever is reading it now and mentioned it again.

I loved the description of the stoic brides, too. I think many would be surprised at their first Afghan wedding, the bride and group sitting on a couch on a dais for hours and hours staring straight ahead. I didn't know that the bride is required to do this to not look happy to be leaving her own family or sad to be going to her new family. The groom does the same thing. What's his excuse?

I knew about the various Taliban decrees, but this book includes one chapter with what the Taliban immediately decreed the day after they rolled into Kabul: No Kite Flying is like number 8 on a list of 16 or something.

No Kite Flying! It seems tyrannies know no bounds.

Kleo

I was left with mixed feelings about the people portrayed in "Bookseller of Kabul". I could admire Sultan Kahn's determination to preserve Afghanistans history and culture, and work to restore the country after all that has happened.

On a personal level, however, I found both he and his eldest son Mansur to be bullies. Both men seemed to regard all other members of the family as there solely to meet their needs. Sons were taken out of school to work in the booksellers shops. Mansur treated his younger sister like a slave, and was rude even to his mother. I found myself detesting that young man, and wishing someone would slap him...hard!

Babi

Oh, Babi, I wanted to slap his father for turning his son into such a brat.

What about all the time in Pakistan Sultan spends visiting his first wife's relatives? He runs a business, supports his family, yet spends endless days visiting relatives, his wife's relatives.

The typical Afghan vacation to Afghanistan consists of two weeks in Pakistan, every day at a different relative's house (and all the same relatives show up at every house), followed by two weeks of the same in Afghanistan. Family is very important to Afghans. The men have duties, also.

I'm only halfway through. I'll let you know if I change my mind any. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Kleo

The Bookseller of Kabul has been on my "to read" list for some time. Kleo and Babi, you are encouraging me to get on with it.
Re: the Taliban -- there is an article in the Magazine section of today's New York Times about a Yale freshman who was a roving ambassador for the Taliban. Fascinating from just that aspect, but also inspiring because it shows what can come from a 4th grade education and a desire to read, read, read and learn, learn, learn.

The Freshman

While you're there, take a look at this shorter NYT article about contemporary Islamic artists.

What Does Islam Look Like?

Alliemae, glad you got your book. And isn't it a good thing we've got "spring break" coming up.

I always enjoy Mahlia's stories about her Egyptian husband and his concern for all his family. As his Father is now very elderly, Mohamed has taken over the responsibilities of the head of the family. He makes regular trips to visit all of them, assuring himself that they are well and properly cared for. If anything is needed, he is the one who attends to it. Family is most important.

Babi

Its the same thing about family importance in Turkey. Vanessa was taken to visit the whole extended family. There was so many visits to relatives. Then when that was exhausted there was the visits to parents of friends especially those whose kids were now working overseas. All of this visiting was terribly important to the family.

Carolyn

Pedln, I'm really enjoying reading this book, The Bookseller of Kabul. I think you will, too.

Thanks for the links on the art and the Talib.

I can't believe that jerk is going to Yale. How many Afghan girls could get a fourth grade education, bare literacy, with the money people are raising to send this #$@*$* to an Ivy League school in America?

May his own daughter never suffer from the evil he has perpetuated on Afghan women. May the women of Afghanistan learn to read enough to know they will never have the golden chance given to this pile of....

"Rahmatullah was caught on videotape responding: 'I'm really sorry to your husband. He might have a very difficult time with you.'"

I recognized this cowpile instantly, my apologies for insulting something actually useful, the dung of a cow. What a world we live in.

Kleo

Hi...I can't find a schedule for the readings. What should we be ready for tomorrow (March 1)?

Thanks much,

Alliemae

Alliemae: --- a new discussion will open tomorrow -- I'll put a link in here later.

Here is the discussion schedule:

Discussion Schedule

Week 1: Chap  1 - Chap 18

Week 2: Chap 19 - Chap 34

Week 3: Chap 35 - Chap 49

Week 4: Chap 50 - Chap 58

Thanks for the dates, PAT. I'm up to Ch. thirteen, so I still have some reading to do for the first week.

Babi

PatWest, thank you.