-- as I'm just finishing up a mystery that takes place in your neck of the woods, Malryn -- Seagrove, NC -- "Uncommon Clay", all about the pottery industry in North Carolina. Have you ever been there?

Stephanie please email me if you know how set the printer to get just what you want, taxwise, instead of multiple volumes. No one in our group seems to have figured that out.

So, we'll have a great discussion going beginning March 1. I, for one, am really looking forward to it.

Wow, Andy, you sure know how to keep someone hanging in suspense. How far into the book must one be to hear your stirring question? While we will be discussing the BOOK here, it will also be great to have the input and insight of those who have seen the movie.

So many times, seeing a movie after reading the book, I think, "if I hadn't read the book first I wouldn't know what was going on."

Sorcerer's Apprentice? Isn't that an opera?

Andy, I'm not familiar with Charles Johnson and his works. Thanks for sharing. And, BTW, who was the first African-American to win the National Book Award?

Well, I usually like liberal activists, but I don't know if I've ever seen those two in a movie. Now that I've got a DVD player, will have to start investigating and paying a little more attention as to WHO is playing.

Stephanie we lived in Watertown, Mass in the early 60's when my husband was in grad school, and his grandmother lived in Sommerville, but I don't remember them as how the places in the book are described. Neither was very high style living back then, although I understand that Sommerville has become quite gentrified. Guess I'll go get my map program and check out Mystic River.

What we do need from you all now, is, what edition of this book do you have -- hardcopy, little mass market paperback, or a larger trade paperback -- in case we need to refer to specific page numbers.

This is a fantastic book, and like Ginny, I almost didn't even start it. So many kept saying how dark it was, and dark is not my thing. But it is fascinating and so well-written and the characters are so well-developed. I haven't been able to put it down.

That's a good quote, Andy. Sounds like our author is a well-rounded man. Epic this book may be, bawdy and funny, no.

Leading (or half-leading) a book discussion here is a new ball game for me, and I know that I will be learning a lot from the participants here. I've seen many of you in other discussions and am always amazed by the caliber of insight that is shown.

Malryn, thanks so much for adding to our knowledge of downtown Boston -- and the train stations. And I'll bet you were a spunky kid. I lived in Boston area for two years, but as the wife of a poor grad student, with a toddler and an infant, rarely left our apartment and back yard. What did surprise me though, was that even at that time, there was still some prejudice directed at the Irish. It makes one wonder if that contributed to the tightly-knit neighborhood that Lehane describes so wonderfully. I love your description, Malryn, that "there were plenty of wolves . . . to escape from in those neighborhoods."

Babi, so glad to see your focus on the friendship "playmates by chance." How true. How universal -- it happens so often -- "friends by chance," "playmates by chance" -- they rode the bus together, our parents were friends, they worked together, but never a deliberate seeking out because of something truly shared. Babi, you see Jimmy as the stongest of the three, but do you think he felt inferior to Sean?

Ginny, that question of "dark" again. What does it mean? I think "sinister." I won't go quite so far right now as to say "evil," but "dark" to me implies something there that is not good for us.

This is going to be a wonderful discussion. There is so much to talk about here, just in these first few pages. Wish I could stay longer, but this AARP TAX afternoon, so must get moving.

Scrawler and Alf, you are both so right when you say Lehane gets you to feel for the characters, especially these boys. In just a few pages we know these kids. Poor Dave, always on the outside, barely tolerated, wild "gutsy" Jimmy willing to try anything just for attention, and cautious Sean who feels adventurous when following in Jimmy's wake.

Poor Mrs. Devine. Worried to death that Sean will become another "wild Bill Devine" if he continues to hang out with Jimmy, afraid that her now steady husband will revert to his old ways if he sees too much of Jimmy's father.

Does anyone worry about Dave? Does anyone really know Dave?

You all have mentioned the setting and the neighborhood, as Babi says, "he makes us see it and feel the emotions." And the "boys plucked from the streets who came back hollow" and "stench" -- Andy, fantastic. What a wonderful observation. There is definitely somethng rotten going on.

In one of the links in the heading there is an interview with Lehane where he talks about creating the setting -- which came from an earlier piece written when he was in school -- "I’d enjoyed creating this fictitious neighborhood with its own history and politics and street names and geography." It shows. He sure is good at it.

We may not agree on semantics here, but it seems that one thing everyone agrees on is that this is one fine novel, and that Lehane is a master at getting us to know and feel the emotions of the characters. As Sandy says, "You can not turn a page without a flood of different emotions coming to the surface."

Frugal, good to see you here.You make an interesting point about the neighborhoods. "I believe the residents shape a neighborhood by homogenous ethnic identity, economic status, educational level, religious affilation . All these characterize a neighborhood. These characteristics will influence value systems and behaviors of the residents." I'm thinking too about what you said about no attempt to get counselling for Dave. Back in 1975 -- were we (society) doing much with counselling for kids? Did elementary schools even have counsellors?

Scrawler -- great question-- would Jimmy and Sean have turned out differently if Dave had never come back? Would they have felt guilty for letting him get in the car, or was Dave of such little consequence to them that his disappearance would have no impact.

Ella, glad you're joining us. You're right about some of the chapter headings being easy to figure out, but what does Lehane mean by "sad-eyed Sinatras?" I feel like I'm missing something here.

Andy asks about the apples -- what about that smell? Rotten? Malryn says they might mean drugs, Sean thinks they were buried under trash and that's how he learned from his dream that it really wasn't a cop car. Any other ideas? They're mentioned more than once.

Jimmy -- Babi calls him a "memorable man . . a memorable character." Frugal says he's the lead character.(Will we always feel that way?) Others have remarked how he's turned his life around, has the respect of all in his neighborhood. One might ask about Jimmy -- has the love of a good woman (women) made him a model citizen? Nothing's been said about Annabeth and Marita.

And what about Celest -- I love Lehane's comment -- "It had been Dave Celest ultimately settled for?--on." Is she Dave's anchor?

Wow, those apples -- you all have sure picked up on them -- or their smell. Harriet says they're a foreshadowing of Sean's future as a cop. That smell alerted him to somethng that was wrong. Malryn thinks that odor might relate to original sin, and the burdens the characters had to take on. Interesting point. And Frugal, yes, Dave was harvested as a piece of ripe fruit, wasn't he.

And those sad-eyed Sinatras -- Scrawler says they're the boys in the present -- adults now, but still in the same place. Malryn says it reminds her of the real Sinatra's toughness that she sees in Jimmy.

Babi,you're right about Annabeth's family. Those brothers sound like they were bad news, even if they were a close-knit group. Interesting. Such troublemakers, but they adored their stepniece Katie. Sounds like everyone in the neighborhood knew and liked Katie. And Celeste was part of that family too -- she and Annabeth were cousins. Annabeth had all those real brothers. Celest used to imagine all those almost brothers and sisters. I wonder who had the better childhood.

Where does the river come in? Why Mystic River? I think I've overlooked something. When Jimmy tells Annabeth he's going straight he doesn't tell her about the one thing that happened by the river (p108). Just what? When he's with Annabeth the river just rolls away.

Ginny, You've given us a lot to think about and ponder. I'd say it's too early to pick a protagonist. I'm torn - or wishy-washy - however you look at. So far, the story revolves around either Dave or Jimmy, but not Sean. Do we need a literary definition of "Protagonist"?

Well, good-bye boys,
Oh my buddy boys,
Oh my sad-eyed Sinatras

Ginny asks why Dave was the one kidnapped. Because even then, there was something in Dave's face that made him look like a victim. The wolves could also tell just by looking at Jimmy that he would put up a fight. P. 30 "Big Wolf said (about Jimmy),'way he looked at me, no fear, no nothing.'

DARK -- that word keeps popping up. Ginny brings that up a couple times in post 102 -- "Your team had failed you and served only to remind you that usually when you tried, you lost. When you hoped, hope died." When you take away hope, you take away light. It's dark. "And so every thing seems to have its negative side . . ." Again, dark.

Mal says "Unfortunately, I think any time people mention Boston these days the subject of pedophilia in the Catholic Church there comes up" Unfortunately, I think you're right. "I heard about crooked cops at the supper table. . ." Isn't it funny what we remember from the dinner table. When I was a kid it was the terrible labor unions and the wonderful Joe McCarthy. Whoosh. I loved your menu, Mal. My in-laws were Boston born and bred, although they moved to Puerto Rico as young marrieds. I well remember baked beans and Boston Brown Bread on Saturday night. And cold boiled salmon, fresh peas, new potatoes and strawberry shortcake on Fouth of July. That never changed.

Babi, I'm not sure about the orange curtains. They tell us about Marita and how the last six months of her life there was little communication between her and Jimmy. She would either be doped up with medicine or else exhausted.

Jimmy -- Ginny asks if we were suprised he had a record. NO!! I'm surprised that he turned around so quickly and completely, especially considering he went right back to his old environment. He goes from the expert at breaking and entering to ideal family man. P. 97-98 "Jimmy and Annabeth doted on their girls. . .worked hard to keep them aware they were loved." And "Jimmy believed in making events in his children's lives." "The women in his life could . . .buckle his knees, make him weak." I don't know, Babi, but I think these women were important in making the change in Jimmy, but it almost seems like a miracle that they were able to do it.

Is this really the story of DAve? What about Jimmy? Everything is pointing to a tragedy for him. He knows. We know.

Not much has been said yet about Brendan Harris. Supposedly he's a likeable kid, but Jimmy hates him and it's obvious.

Pat, Could you please do that for us? Right now I'm counting three -- Good vs. Evil, Mystic River & the Flats and Alienation -- and I'm sure with this sharp group there'll will be even more.

Mal, I'm inclined to agree with you that this is a Boston story, but it's probably because I know Boston a very little, but not much. Don't know Philadelphia or New York, but am pretty sure they also have their ethnic enclaves.

Now, I don't want to pick on anyone, but may I please pay devil's advocate? Andy has said that Dave changed the other two boys and should be considered the protagonist. How changed? Sean's parents had expectations for him before Dave disappeared. When Jimmy's mother told him she was glad he didn't get in the car he didn't start walking the straight and narrow.

Another problem. I'm convinced that when Lehane tells us something there's a reason behind it, his writing is so skilled and succinct that you know he doesn't just toss out words for the heck of it. So why does he introduce the "samurai sword man" on p. 100?

Lehane is a wonderful writer. I have so many visual images from the reading of this book. I wonder if that's what has helped make the movie so well-received. Hope someone brings that up when we get to that discussion (of the movie.)

"When had the pace picked up, left him staring at everyone's backs?"

Malryn, thanks for that great picture of the Tobin (or Mystic River) bridge. Yesterday I finally found an atlas that labeled the rivers (before, I couldn't tell the Charles from the Mystic). Looking at my CD map, it looks like Somerville and Charleston on the south side, Everett and Chelsea on the north, East Boston east of the bridge. Lehane's Dorchester is a good bit south, and more on the bay than any river. But, as we know from what he has said, he likes to make up neighborhoods, and he's doing a fantastic job. And Mal, good point about the contrast between Nadine at her first communion and Katie's bloody car. As you say, Lehane leaves clues all over for us to find. Will we later be saying, "we should have picked up on that?"

Sandy, I'm glad you've joined us again. Yes, "what if." Definitely one of the themes. What if. "What if Dave didn't get in the car, what it Dave didn't come back, what if Diane had stayed in the car with Katie." Good questions. I'm sure we'll be asking ourselves even more "what ifs" before we finish. And what about the characters? Do they ask "what ifs?"

Sandy, you don't see anything good? Does anyone? That may be one of things we want to ask ourselves next week as we look at chapters 8 -15. Is this book completely dark or is there anything good? The one good thing I see so far is the love shown for the children, Dave for his son and Jimmy for his daughters. And these are men who grew up without much obvious affection.

Harriet, thanks for that wonderful in-depth appraisal of Sean. We really haven't said much about him, and you have summed up a lot for us to think about. I'm going to have to reread Chapter 6 -- why broken, what's broken.

Babi -- wow!! " Deteriorating neighborhoods, and regenerated neighborhoods." Deteriorating lives, regenerated lives? Neighborhood is surely a theme. Interesting point about being afraid to leave.

Frugal those orange curtains are a puzzler -- may be related to Maritas impending death. Is orange a symbol of something? Do you see much symbolism here?

It seems we're answering lots of questions here and bringing up lots of good points, and every time we do, we ask more.

Pat, thanks for getting the Theme Box up. Could you please add 'Neighborhood' and 'What if'?

Interesting point, Malryn, about more acceptance in neighborhoods like the Flats. My daughter worked for a while in a small village in Central America, and her comment was similar to yours -- the people there accepted tragedy and misfortune as a matter of course. When you get a lot of s - - t in your life you just assume you always will.

Malryn, I agree with you -- in times of upheaval and duress we follow our hearts instead of our heads, just as Celeste is doing. And I think she feels a certain euphoria about what she has done. "She's taken everything that had been thrown at her. . .. and dealt with it. Conquered it. She felt giddy again,powerful, vibrant . . . . .was most definitely not a disposable toaster."

Stephanie, welcome back. You read 157 messages? Wow. Aren't you glad you did -- because there have been terrific posts here. We are really seeing so many different themes, so many different nuances in this book and as you can see we don't always agree. Yeah, Jimmy's nervous, but has been pretty cool seeing all the police -- but seeing Katie's car has all but knocked him off his feet.

Scrawler, you mentioned the Boyle curse -- that aura of vulnerability that has followed Dave throughout his life, that makes him want to take away his son's openess and trusting. It seems ironic that Dave, who was "broken" so early in life, could still retain a childlike openess. You said this description reminded you of your son at seven. My youngest grandchild, also. He's seven, small for his age, and has had speech problems. But I don't think boys have to learn to be tough to survive. I would hate to take anything good away from them.

Babi,you said, "One of the darkest sides of such victimization is the feeling left with the child that they must be a bad person" and that it's his/her fault. Just like women who are victims of spousal abuse -- many think they've done something to deserve what they got. How awful to be a victim and then not be able to talk about it -- like Dave with his mother. Which is worse, reinventing history, and telling white lies, as Scrawler mentioned in her post, or keeping silent and not talking at all about what happens or is important in your life.

I'm off to do taxes.

"Celeste felt Dave's isolation and she knew that her husband was a good man. Flawed, but good. She loved him, and if she loved him he was good, and if he was good, then the blood on Katie's car had nothing to do with the blood she's cleaned off Dave's clothes on Saturday night. And so Katie must still, somehow be alive. Because all other alternatives were horrifying.

And illogical Completely illogical."

I think I'm missing something here. I've been going back and rereading the sections about Celeste -- but, in contrast to what I'm picking up in the posts, I don't see her as feeling guilty or regretting what she has done evidence-wise. For sure, she doesn't believe Dave's story, or thinks he may not have told the whole truth, but I don't think she's bothered by what she has done to get rid of the evidence. Maybe someone can straighten me out.

I'm so glad Frugal brought up the "what ifs" again, and Jimmy's comment about how things would have turned out differently if he and Sean had been in that car. He would never have been the fearless 16-year-old who asked the beautiful Marita for a date and Katie would never have been born. As Malryn said, Lehane is weaving two stories together. This is certainly a connecting point.

Symbolism? Apples -- something rotten; Mystic River -- dark, secrets,neighborhood.

Turning Point? Will have to come back to this -- maybe when Jimmy sees Katie's car, maybe after his almost confrontation with Theo, maybe when Celeste starts thinking Dave might have murdered Katie.

Stephanie, a good point about the neighborhood making Jimmy and Annabeth stoic. One would probably guess that Jimmy has been stoic all his life and breaking down in front of others would be anathema to him.

Babi, thanks for bringing us a definition of tragedy, and I agree with you that we are seeing and/or will see tragic outcomes as a result of the actions of Celeste, Dave, and Jimmy.

We haven't said a whole lot about Sean. Does he have two dreams -- one about the broken seagull, and the other about his childhood feet riveted to the street? We know his marriage is broken. We don't know why he was suspended -- a character flaw?

Ginny, re Celeste -- Did she do what she did because she wanted to be thought powerful and in control, or did she first act/react and thenfelt powerful and in control.

Ginny asks "what's it about?" Malryn answers that quite eloquently in the post above. It's also about things that get broken and can't be put back together.

Scrawler, what a splendid comparison of positive things (Tears in her hair) and negative things (Ain't ever gonna feel that again.) I'd read Tears more than once and completely missed that it had all those "good" things. That Mrs. Harris, wasn't she a piece of somethng - "Esther Harris was quite possibly the most miserable woman Sean had ever met. She was f__ evil." Sure can't blame Brendan for wanting to get away. He sounds so good, and his mother so horrible. I can relate to your statement that good can't exist without evil. Several years ago I attended a university panel about whether books could have negative influence, and the chairman of the humanities dept. said much what you said. He then went on to point out that the literature that came out of Germany in pre-WWII years pointed towards Nazism and anti-semitism. Off our subject, but I've never forgetten how he said if you have good, there is also evil.

Alf, good to hear from you again too, and to get the nurse's perspective. I'm glad to see you and Babi and Stephanie pick up on Sean; we really haven't had much to say about him before. From what you say, and the examples you give from the book sure do point to a depressed man. Sean even wonders if he is depressed -- "He wondered if this was what clinical depression felt like, a total numbness, a weary lack of hope." Yeah, Sean.

FATE -- suggests some determining power or force, and implies that the outcome cannot be avoided, escaped or changed."

Malryn, Ginny asked "What role so far would you say FATE has played in this story?", and you have given us A LOT to think about. "I think Fate has a great deal to do with what happens to these characters. They are fated to live a certain way in a certain place, and when they try to change that fate or resist it something terrible happens to them. " Whew! Is that another theme. You certainly make a strong case for it. We could probably have a debate just about FATE. Guess my question would be, Does the acceptance of Fate take away hope?

"Lehane: One person's going to die and it's going to hurt. It's going to hurt beyond pain. That's one of the reasons I kept the body off the page for, I think, until about 120 or 130 pages in. You know she's dead. But you feel the absolute anguish of the parents because they just don't know. Is she dead? Is she not dead? Is she in the river? It became a book about the social fabric of the world in which she lived.

"The whodunit is there, but it's the last thing I thought of. I always said with Mystic River I wanted to write an epic story about small-scale lives. I wanted it to play out like opera. There's no question I was swinging for the fences very early in that book, particularly the scene where the father realizes his daughter is dead. I remember writing that scene, going, This is either going to work or it's going to fall on its face, because that was about as high opera as I could get. Certainly, the point was the people, the characters, the sense of fate, the sense of tragedy. It was scaled as a tragedy from the beginning, the tragedy of trying to run from who you are, which chases down everybody in the book.

"Dave: An inseparable part of that is the neighborhood.

"Lehane: It's probably the major character in the book."

Source:

Dennis Lehane Interview

Aren't you feeling pretty proud of yourselves folks, and pretty astute, too. You have said a lot of the same things that Lehane spoke of in the interview. That this is a tragedy about people living in a not-well-off, but closely knit neighborhood. And of course both Malryn and Stephanie said earlier that this was about people trying to escape their destinies, to get away from their fate. Not that everyone agrees with that, but Lehane said it is part of the story.

"This is a kind of open-hearted look at a tragic event." What do you think Lehane means by that statement (from the interview.)?

"Mystic River only has, I think, two overtly funny lines in it." That's also Lehane speaking in the interview. Three cheers and a pat on the back for whoever comes up first with those two lines.

We've been talking a lot about the effects of the kidnapping on the characters. In the interview that Malryn brought us (and I hope everyone has a chance to read it. It's fantastic. Dennis Lehane Interview )

Has anyone come across any interviews, etc. where Lehane talks about the kidnapping and the part he intended it to play? Please share if you have.

Regarding the funny lines Lehane talks about -- I vaguely remember laughing at something the cops said -- some smart alec remark one of them made to Roman and his lady friend.

This book is truly a winner, and I'm really looking forward to reading your posts as we get into the last half.

Mystic, as in Mystic River in Massachusetts where this book takes place:



The name 'Mystic' is from Missi-tuk, the Indian name for what once was a tidal river. (The name means 'half-way place.')

Two dams built in Medford (MA) in 1909 and 1966 stopped the tidal flow, and changed the river from saltwater to freshwater.

"The Mystic was an important Colonial era waterway connecting the Merrimack River to Boston Harbor via the now-closed Middlesex Canal. In the 19th century, more than 500 clipper ships were built in Mystic shipyards. And rum distilleries on shore used the Mystic's water as a 'special ingredient.'

"The river also was abused by industries that benefited from it - auto plants, tanneries, chemical companies - and pollution problems persist."

Sources:

Cleanup of the Mystic River

Mystic River, Connecticut

Malryn, thanks for your input on Mystic River. Interesting the change from saltwater to freshwater.

Frugal, I'm so glad you are making notes on comparing the movie and the book. That will be really helpful. I'm sorry if I misdirected you to the interview. Like Malryn, I thought we had pretty much formed opinions and covered the territory he talked about. But what really enchanted me in the interview was Lehane talking about his teaching creative writing and what he felt was the difference between literature and other kinds of creative arts. And I loved it when he said he was "over the moon" when Mystic River was said to be "literature" rather than just another mystery.

So, lots coming off in this section. Poor Dave, he's a suspect, at least in Whitey's eyes. Did he kill Katie? He sure did something? Did the "boy grown up" drive him over the edge? Sean seems to stick up for Dave, at least every time Whitey offers a reason to suspect, Sean comes back with a reason not to. WHY? It's almost as if Sean thinks he owes Dave something.

One thing that surprised me was how chummy Sean was when he first saw Dave, when really they hadn't crossed paths in six years. They had taken different paths since early adolescence, Sean going to Boston Latin and then to college, Dave playing ball for Don Boscos High and then into the work force. Yet they seemed to have had old friends in common or at least knew about the same people. Maybe it was just the typical chit chat we all engage in when seeing someone we haven't seen for a while.

Isn't Katie's death a thread? Isn't the kidnapping a thread? We are seeing all these characters, getting "inside their heads," so to speak, but in the end all these chapters lead to those two events.

I'm asking myself, "Would we be here, in the Flats, with all these people, if Katie hadn't been killed.?" NO. Her death is what brought us here. "What about the kidnapping?" Well, we did go to his return-home party. Then I heard to played good baseball, guess he married and had a kid. "So, the kidnapping is NOT why we're here, right?"

From Ginny:
"And in chapter 21 we see Dave splitting apart into two people, The Boy who takes over his life like a beast, and Dave."
On page 322-3 (pb)

"It would be so easy to just give in . . . what he'd been feeling for the last decade. 'Yes,' the Boy said. 'Do it.' But he knew deep in his soul this would be the worst sin of all."

I can't answer Ginny's questions about the chapter, but I think we see Dave here as an example of good rising over evil. He has withstood these temptations for a long time because he knows they're evil. Is he really a stronger person than we have thought?

Malryn, whew, you are being hit with double whammies. I hope the toothache is gone, and most importantly, that all goes well with your daughter and her C-section. For sure you must be worrying about her at the same time you are looking forward to another grandchild. Please keep us posted here. My thoughts and prayers are with you and mom and baby.

Malryn, that 's a very interesting take on the neighborhood -- a Hell that has trapped its residents. I know so little about classic lit, but we have already touched upon Fate and its part in this book, so your view certainly ties in. I don't think I agree with you about carrying the sins and burdens of our ancestors, but I do think that neighborhood certainly plays a big part here. My question though, is are they really trapped here? Or are they here because of tradition, it's where they were brought up, it's where they want to be? I would guess that maybe Dave and family work hard at making ends meet. But Jimmy -- he can afford $600 suits, his store seems to attract customers.

This book raises so many questions. Who has the answers?

I think you are so right, those remarks are a major key to the entire book. "Threads in our lives. You pull one, and everything else gets affected." We see that throughout the book. Katie's thread, for instance -- she and Brendan decide to elope, she and her friends have a farewell night on the town, she has a little too much to drink, drives on a rainy night, ends up dead. Dave's thread could be way long, but let's start at Saturday night -- Celeste has a hen party, Dave goes out, drinks, gets into a confrontation with somebody, comes home bloody, lies to wife, etc., etc.

It would be interesting to make a diagram of all these THREADS like diagramming a sentence, or more like a sociogram. Which lines connect to someone else, what events connect to other happenings. Do any threads just go in a straight line? The THREADS that Jimmy talks about and that Babi has pointed out are almost the opposite of our WHAT IF theme. When a WHAT IF takes place, the THREADS go elsewhere. Maybe nothing happens. Stephanie says that Lehane is "curving the reading," which I interpret to mean the author is sending or leading us in different directions. Does the curve go/come full circle?

Malryn and Alf have added two more themes to add to our list -- FEAR and DENIAL. Interesting points about the different denials. Especially Dave. This poor broken man has been trying to deny his whole life. It looks like some threads need a knot -- Dave has been denying what happened to him because, as Andy says, "he fears his other self."

I've been batting that chapt.21 quote up in the heading -- "You grew up . . .Don't try to carry my cross" -- around all evening -- and that diagram looks like a sea urchin. "Torn from me" says the boy. Is Dave tryng to tell himself, "You were a kid, it's over. Deal with it." OR Does he think he has to avenge what happened to him?

You aren't just a kidding when you say this is a difficult section to discuss. Partly I thnk because we're bringing our own baggage (from the previous readings, not our personal) and trying to make it fit with what's happening now.

Malryn has recently given us two new themes to consider -- SENSELESS and DENIAL. I think SENSELESS may be a mini-theme, but DENIAL is BIG TIME. It goes back to the beginning when Jimmy and Sean watched Dave go off in the car. They think they could have done something, but all their elders have told them they did the right thing. Whether they could or could not have helped Dave does not matter. They think they could have. These "Angels of the Silences" -- could they be the things that are being denied?

But I have some other thoughts on those Angels too. Page 261, Ch/18. I have a margin note from last week that says "Fate, again," but am not sure now why I wrote it, but,

"In the shower he (Jimmy)felt it coming again--that old wave of sadness. . . .an awareness that tragedy loomed somewhere in his future. . .As is an 'angel' had told him his future while he was still in the womb. . .with the 'angel's' words planted somewhere in his mind."

These angels -- have they told premonitions of something to come, or have they preordained something to come -- in other words, FATE.

About the boy and the cross -- Babi says "The only way Dave could carry that cross is if he had dealt with the trauma and come to terms with it." Stephanie"Something pivotal has happend to Dave" and Babi then says "the pivotal thing. . .is that he has exploded and killed someone."

My question now is, Is the boy good or evil? or rather, Is the boy trying to help Dave or bring him down? Part of the problem with Chpt. 21, especially the last few pages, is trying to figure out which is past (Saturday night) and which is present (Monday night, I think.)

"He'd wanted blood that night (Sat.), the Boy, he'd wanted to cause pain. So Dave had obliged.. . The boy wasn't satisfied until he saw pieces of brain." The boy left and Dave did a good job of cleaning up.

Now on Monday night they (Dave and the Boy are walking) and Dave wants to stop and weep because he realizes he has become Dave the Wolf. But it is too dangerous to stop and junkies would see Dave as an easy mark.

"He sucked in a big breath and straightened his walk. . .put a bit of rise in his shoulders, gave his eyes a 'f you' glare . . ."

"The volume of the Boy's voice did lessen.. .. I am you, the Boy said in the tone of a friend. I am you."

You are the first brave one who's given us a turning point, and an excellent one, when Celeste begins to ask herself questions about Dave. It will be interesting to see how many agree or disagree with you.

And what a question. "Could anyone given the right circumstances commit murder?" I don't know. Could you, could I?

And the vampires as a metaphor for Dave. There are strong parallels between becoming a vampire when bitten by one, and becoming what Dave thinks he is after being abused by George and Henry.

Stay well, now. We need you.

To answer your question about "old baggage from previous readings," I was refering to earlier chapters in this book -- our efforts to tie up threads, complete curves, and balance the 'what its.' Ever since it was put in the Theme Box I've been trying to find another word that expresses "what if." It could be "choices."

Ginny has said that tomorrow we begin our descent -- our downward spiral? As well as choices, we still need to be aware of turning points. What is sending us downward? Scrawler has given us her thoughts on that -- That Celeste's internal questions about Dave is the turning point. Is that the only one, have we reached such a point yet?

What about Dave? Do we have a new Dave, one who has confronted his demons -- will that turn the tide?

Those are great questions for this section, Ginny, and I've been batting them and lots of threads and knots around half the morning, but want to respond to only No. 10, while I'm still thinking about it coherently, before those thoughts fly away.

It's already up there -- someone suggested REVENGE some time ago, and today, anyway, I think it is a theme most major -- because --

Going back to childhood -- Dave -- wants revenge for what happened to him when he was kidnapped.

Jimmy -- first killed Just Ray for revenge for some misdeed -- I don't remember what; now he has killed Dave because he thinks Dave killed Katie

Celeste -- I don't really want to say she's out for revenge, but she goes to Jimmy because of what she's feeling about Dave

Bobby and Roman -- the minor characters -- wanted revenge when Katie did not want to date Bobby anymore

Ray and Johnny O'Shea -- they wanted revenge against Katie because she ran ! ! And I wonder too, if young Ray wanted revenge because Katie was taking his brother Brendan away. Perhaps that's why they tried to scare Katie in the first place.

Johnny -- wanted to shoot Brendan because Brendad broke his nose

Lauren -- was she seeking revenge against Sean because he was dumping so much on her, is that why she left. Temporary revenge, maybe

My feelings on revenge. I'm sure some of you can add more examples. It just seems this book is filled with revenge and revengeful acts.

And Malryn, impressive the way you have linked so mamy things to religion, going back to Ginny's comments about original sin. And you have given us another take on the Mystic River -- where people are baptized and sins are washed away. Were they washed away, or is the river still holding them, as Scrawler says, holding secrets? Perhaps this helps us answer questin 13 above -- why is Jimmy always washing himself in the river, in his dreams. Is he trying to wash away his sins?

Fantastic dream interpretation. I'm truly impressed. Would never have even thought about speak, see, hear no evil, but you have made it clear as a bell.

I think Ginny is off getting food for her new refrig. Good thing she has a computer, otherwise she would not be able to learn how to work it.

Stephanie, this certainly is a tragedy, and I agree with you that the trip downhill will be fast.

"Seven is most often seen as a number of completion, of things having come full circle. And maybe, for Jimmy, they are about to do just that. "

Babi, what an interesting concept. I didn't know that about the number 7. But your interpretation about "full circle" certainly fits. Clever -- 1+6=7. My first thought was that since we are finding so many religious references that 7 and 16 might refer to chapters and verses in the Bible, but how would one even know where to begin.

Folks, did you know that if you google "Banished tribe" you will come right back to this discussion. I was hoping I might get some help there, and there it wass, refering us to Chapt. 24. Scrawler has a good point about what happens to those who disobey the tribe. They're banished.

When Celeste meets Jimmy at the restaurant they chit chat a bit and talk about people they knew back when. People who are no longer part of their lives. So I was thinking maybe those folks were the banished tribe, banished out of the neighborhood because of gentrification -- which is the title of this section of the book. Far-fetched, no doubt, but . . .

Let's hear your thoughts, please.

What I expected would happen, didn't happen, and that was that Jimmy would go after Brendan. Just knowing Katie wanted to go off with him would be a torment to Jimmy.

As for more torment for Jimmy -- I think it really bothered him that Dave was one of the last people to see Katie alive. I think Jimmy really resented that.

MalrynFar out? Analogies sure can be fun and interesting and yours don't lack in that respect. Worth considering.

Must go hunting. Our local rag had an excellent article on growing asparagus by our local plant guru. Must send it to the Charlottesville kid who has her garden tilled and her asparagus plants ordered. It's only two years before we can eat them.

Ginny, are you seeing Dave as a Christ figure? Did he die for the others?

More about the banished tribe. Talking about improvements to the Flats/ P. 377 "So much more sun, so much less soot. . .but without the cloak, everyone could look at them, appreciate their brick row houses. . . proximity to downtown. They weren't an underground tribe anymore."

Malryn, yes Dave surely is an innocent. Remember when Val asks Dave if he wants to pop a few beers -- (prior to being killed by Jimmy) "Dave was a bit surprised. . .he never remembered Val showing anything but complete apathy in his presence. . .It must be Katie . .in death she was bringing them all together. . . forging bonds through the sharing of tragedy." Innocent, naive.

Celeste, definitely a Judas. So if you have Judas, you must have a Christ figure, yes?

Regarding protagonist -- does it have an opposite -- is that the antagonist. So, if Dave is the protagonist, what does that make Jimmy? Or vice versa. I still think we have to also look at who the action revolves around. Without Katie's death and its effect on Jimmy you have no story. So I'm sticking with Jimmy as protagonist.

Scrawler, good points about Sean.I'm not sure why we're knocking him. Haven't been able to figure out why he should be on a different career path just because he went to Boston Latin and college. He's been a good cop, suspended because of a prank, but not fired because he did a good job. He's shown compassion in this book, which is something lacking in the other characters (although one might make a case to refute that.) And I think Dave's death,as well as the scene in the Harris apartment, brought about cathasis for Sean, enabling him to finally speak with Lauren.

Andy, re your post 282 -- I can understand why you empathize with the characters, especially Dave. Killing the chld molester was legally wrong, but in doing so, Dave became whole again, he felt like he had washed away his sin.

One character we have said little about is Annabeth. She knew what was going on after Celeste called, and she probably could have prevented it. (p. 430, pb.) And now Jimmy is telling her he's ready to confess and she fights that tooth and nail. "Everyone is weak," she says. "We are not weak." Is she showing us that loves conquers all or that she is a cold-hearted b. . .?

What do you think?

"I think he was there to show us how trivial the murder of Katie was" Wow, Stephanie, excellent point. That sure fits in with "senseless," one of the themes listed above.

Ginny, you ask would be the moral of this book. Maybe somethng like, "The choices you make throughout your life affect not only you, but also those around you." Just tossing that in. Will probably change my mind tomorrow.

Ginny, many thanks for the kind words, but your help, and picking up the ball has been indispensible. And with such a keen group of participants, how could it not be a great discussion.

These last pages of posts are great and I can't wait to see what our final wrapup will bring. Malryn your listing of scenes in no.8 above mmost interesting -- especially the ones about the kids. You can really picture the contrasts there.

Will have to congitate later, as I'm hosting a dinner for some folks from church tonight, which means I'd better get there this morning.

Hasta manana.

You mentioned that we "discussers" have mentioned the boy (Boy). I'm sure many of us will want to know if "The Boy" (Dave's other) played as prominent a part in the movie.

This morning our local rag had a guest column that included mention of "All the King's Men." The columnist said that book was about idealism and its corruption. So I'm thinking, "what can we say about Mystic River in four words?" To borrow a phrase - - "Innocence and its corruption?" Does that fit in with "original sin" -- which I really don't know what it is -- burdens of those before us?

Scrawler, Interesting points about the climax and the theme. "I think this is when Jimmy Marcus comes full circle and decides who he is and what he is going to do with his life and therefore this is the climax of the book.""if you did something wrong that it will come back on you in the form of bad karma." Malryn seems to agree with you about the karma, which she calls Fate. Malryn and Ginny think the climax is when Jimmy killed Dave.

Here are a couple more definitions of climax.

ClimaxThe high point in an action. The point where the conflict and resulting tension out to the fullest extent. The decisive moment in a drama, the climax is the turning point of the play to which the rising action leads. This is the crucial part of the drama, the part which determines the outcome of the conflict.

I think based on that, I have to go along with those of you who think the climax is when Jimmy kills Dave. That's where the action is leading to when, as Scrawler says, "Jimmy Marcus comes full circle. . "

Malryn, great point about the early prisoners and then the neighborhood become a dumping ground. That certainly does give justification for your earlier thoughts. Regarding the issue of names and addresses of sexual predators, wasn't "Megan's Law" passed because of recidivism of such predators? It's a hard call, especially when someone is really trying to turn his life around, but when there is a danger, the public has a right to know.

Frugal, although you are correct about the molested becoming the molester in the book,I don't think the author can build a case for the transmission of pedophilia, I just don't believe it's true. Good point about the need for early intervention with such victims.

Malryn, thanks for reminding us about Jimmy's stealing the glove -- seeing the float glove. The happy parade and floats atmosphere becomes a little darker -- "somethng about the float chilled Sean, the glove seemed less to be cradling the kids and more on the verge of enveloping them, the kids oblivious." Oblivious to what -- their future? the Fate the Flats holds for them?

I do see a parallel with Dave going off in the car, Sean and Jimmy watching at the beginning of the book, and with Michael going by in the float, with Sean and Jimmy watching at the end of the book.

Who is the most tragic figure? I'm swimming against the flow, but i think this is Jimmy's story and he is the most tragic figure. I don't really believe in Fate, but the book seems to say that Fate has claimed Jimmy and made him the way he is. This man who has/has had the potential to rise above his circumstances, has tried to be "good" now faces the fact that he is evil. So be it. "So I am then." No regrets, no guilt. He can live with being evil because he has love in his heart. Sad. Tragic. Those pages (441-443) were absolutely chilling.

That's interesting about the public housing scandal, Stephanie. Kind of reminds one of the places that still have some rent-contrlled apartments -- they're never advertised -- just passed on from one family member to the next.

Sure hope I don't have to miss what you all have to say tomorrow. My ISP is upgrading mid-morning. They say it shouldn't disrupt service. We shall see. Not the fastest service in the world, but now will be all 56K modems. No more 28.8.

Scrawler, interesting point about Sean and full circle. I think we've neglected him a bit, glad you're taking up for him. More about that later

My ISP is out. Can't get on at home, so am at a friend's who is genourously letting me log on long enough to read. Will try again from home later.

Deems Maryal, I'm real curious to know -- in the movie, did you have any sense of Dave splitting into two personalities -- was the Boy there?

To all the rest of you, this has been a great discussion, thanks to all of you who came forth with such thoughtful posts. We didn't always agree, and some of us, myself included, probably had the rest of you thinking, "where'd she get THAT?" But all that's what makes a discussion memorable. And hat's off and a million thanks to Ginny, our fantastic co-DL who held us all together and really got us poking in those gray cells. AND Hats off and a million thanks to our techies Pat Westerdale, who, week after week made sure we had something "for consideration," and to Marjorie who saw to our heading and banner. Without them we'd have a lot of blank space.

And what a book, and I didn't even want to read it at first. Thought it would be too bloody. Just goes to show, good characterization, even characters you wouldn't choose as friends, can go a long way in making or breaking a book. In this case, I'd say charactization AND setting. pretty powerful.

Now I can't wait to see the movie, but I know I'll be thinking through the whole thing, "Oh yeah, that's what Scrawler and Babi were talking about, that's what Stephanie meant, and Frugal and Alf, and Celeste is as stupid as Ginny says, and THAT'S where Mal's hat blew off."

I want to see this movie soon, so I can apply much of what we read and discussed, while it is still fresh in my mind.

Sounds like for the most part, the film closely follows the book.

Did the kidnapping play as large a part in the movie as it did in the book?

Thanks for your input. I'm looking forward to seeing it on DVD.