Nine Tailors, The ~ Dorothy L. Sayers ~ 5/03 ~ Mys Export

THE NINE TAILORS

Dorothy L. Sayers

From DVD reviews.

"Dorothy L. Sayers’ book The Nine Tailors stands as one of the greatest mystery novels of the 20th Century. Featuring her legendary sleuth, Lord Peter Wimsey, the story is a puzzle of increasingly surprising twists and turns including a murder, the solution to which is one of the most unexpected in the genre."

Source:Classics on DVD

The old time mystery novels and detectives stories met with a great deal of enthusiasm in a Curious Minds discussion I had a while back. So if there is enough reader interest and support for this genre, time allowing, I plan on doing a series of novels about these old time mystery stories. In my Curious Minds discussion some of you may remember that we talked about novels such as The Thin Man, Lord Peter Wimsey, Sherlock Holmes and a host of others brought forth by the readers. That discussion brought out the nostalgia in our participants and I'm hoping these stories will do the same.

The Nine Tailors

Scroll down to the bottom of the page after using the link and you will find this novel along with other Dorthy L. Sayers novels.

Discussion Schedule

-1st - week - pgs. - 3 - 100
-2nd - week - pgs. - 101 - 200
-3rd - week - pgs. - 201 - 300
-4th - week - pgs. - 301 - 397

Dorothy Leigh Sayers

Discussion Leader ~ Bill H

B&N Bookstore | Books Main Page | Suggest a Book/Discussion

Oh, BillH, Thanks!! This sounds like so much fun!! I can't wait!!

Lou

Jane, thanks for making the print larger.

Lou2, I'm glad to see you here. I need two more and it's a go. So Lou2 put the word out.)

Bill H

Hi Bill H,

Lou2 is doing a great job of recruiting. I love mysteries. I am more familiar with contemporary authors. I would love to read the mystery classics and be able to say that I not only know Agatha Christie, but I know others too.

I have never taken part in a mystery discussion. I feel a little apprehensive about signing up.

Hats, don't feel aprehensive about signing up. Once you see the way it goes and make a few posts yourself you'll feel right at home. Everyone is very friendly, Hats, and once the discussion gets going you'll find yourself chiming right and just eager to give your own thoughts. It's like learning how to swim. At first one is a little worried about getting in the water, but once the person starts swiming he/she does not want to get out of the pool. I think you will like the Nine Taylors. Come on in the water is fine.

Bill H

Bill H, thanks for the kind and encouraging words.

Hats, you are more than welcome. Hope to see you on board.

Bill H

Dorothy.. Goodie. I love all of her stuff and have read and reread them. So.. sign me up..

Stephanie, welcome aboard and happy you signed on. I love the old time mysteries also.

Bill H

Dorothy Sayers is a favorite of mine. I think I would enjoy talking to others here that share that interest.

Bill H; Please count me in - I am a big Sayers fan. Thanks for setting it up. isak

Phyll and Isak, welcome aboard. More than happy you folks are going to join in. Somesthing tellsme we are going to have a good, fun discussion.

Bill H

Folks,

I have found many copies of this book available at the Barnes and Noble used books store Some at very low price.here's a link

The Nine Tailors

Bill H

This sounds terrific. I've never read any Dorothy Sayers, but have heard from many that she is one of the best. I'm looking forward to reading it with you all. Thanks for getting this going, Bill.

Pedlyn, welcome to the discussion. Glad you are going to join in.

Bill H

I have not yet read Dorothy Sayers, but am interested. Please put me on your list.

Currently I am reading (no, devouring)Martha Grimes' Richard Jury mystery series. Martha Grimes is a U.S. citizen who writes in the style of the great English mysteries. She has been writing this series since the 1980s, but I've just discovered them. Is anyone else interested in discussing her books? I'll propose the first in the series, The Man With A Load of Mischief, for possible discussion.

From reading the Nine Tailors review, I think the situations may be similar to the Grimes' mysteries.

Pat, hi and welcome to another Dorthy L. Sayers fan. And thank you for that tip on the Richard Jury mystery series.

You know, there are so many of these good mystery stories that a reader should never want for something to read.

Bill H

Thanks to all of you who showed interest in the Nine Tailors mystery discussion it has been placed in the Upcoming Attractions.
The discussion on Dorothy L. Sayers novel will begin Monday, May 12. That will give all of us time to get the book, read it and make notes of what we wish to discuss.
I'll post a reading schedule soon.
Thanks again.

Bill H

Hello, and welcome to Dorothy L. Sayers “The Nine Tailors” discussion. I would appreciate your thoughts and comments on the first one hundred pages of the novel.

Do you think the title was appropriate for the story? Perhaps you could suggest one that you think may be more suitable.

I believed the author painted the bleakness of England’s Fen country fairly well in the way she opened her novel. I would appreciate reading your opinions about her opening pages.

Fen Country

Bill H

Hello to all.

I have just finished the first 100 pages. First, the table of contents made no sense to me and that was a little off putting. Then the first pages of the novel are about bell ringing, which I know nothing about and therefore the terminology meant little to me. Bill I did give you a link that gets to an explanation of bell ringing in England.

The author captures the nature of the landscape quite well. She also has a great ear and the dialogues are exactly what one would expect these people to be saying. However, this leads to a small problem for those of us who are not British - the English language in Britain is different from the English language in the US. I also suspect that the language of the thirties was different from that of today. However, the use of language does provide an excellent view into the speakers character. There are private musings by some characters that almost are a stream of consciousness.

Because of my ignorance of bell ringing and my difficulty with language, I found the first fifty to seventy pages rather slow going. For those who also experience this, things start happening and the novel improves IMO after you get through those introductory pages.

Hi Bill and George -- George,we must be opposites. I paid little attention to the landscape, but was fascinated with the bells, altho I really didn't understand much about them. I went looking for more info on the Internet and found little. I keep wondering if all bells are called "tailors."

Bill, I've been reading a large print edition, and doubt the paging is the same. Could you perhaps indicate an ending chapter? Just so I don't comment ahead of the game, as I'm about 2/3s done. I hope the regular edition has been returned to the library because I've renewed the LP and cannot re-renew. This is my first D. Sayers and so far it's been most enjoyable.

George, I'm so glad to see you here, we'll have two men's views, I always think that the masculine view adds so much to our discussions. Oh and you make several great points on the dialect, yes, wasn't that wonderful, and again on the 30's. I had JUST finished watching a Jeeves and Wooster and thought I was reading about it for a while, she's really got it down. Oh and GREAT point on the musings of the characters, you are so right!

That just goes to show you how different readers are!! I absolutely love this book, was caught on the first page and could not put it down.

It has, to me, all the elements that I want in a mystery, it has something, as you say, I know nothing about at all but am learning fast, bell changing, I just love learning new things, we're snowbound, caught out motoring in a snowdrift and plunged into a wonderful world of interesting people doing something I know nothing about, there's a mystery in the first 100 pages but by the time you get there, you DO care about the characters (so good to see an Anglican rector portrayed sympathetically) I'm HOOKED.,

The late Poet Laureate of South Carolina once taught a writer's workshop that I attended on Mystery Writing (she had one mystery published) and she said it's simple: you project the feeling of "I'm going on an adventure, you come too" and you're sold.

This one has a wonderfully scholarly undertone. Who KNEW the bells all had different names?

Am I the only one who grew up near a church that used bell ropes and people to pull them? They're terribly dangerous, the ropes are very thick and heavy, they can literally pull you off the ground, you can get hurt.

We children used to climb inside, forbidden, into the curving old bell tower on slivers of stone steps, with no railing, projecting from the inside of the wet slippery stone spiral walls, which just stuck out of the wall like...well, stones, it's a miracle we did not break our necks, you'd climb up first around the outside of the tower to the first stage, holding on to the rickety iron railing (they've closed it now) and catch pigeons. Then if you were daring you could climb on up on those stone steps to the very top of the tower with the bells. This was out towards Bristol, PA, coming from Philadelphia, called Eddington.

In Rye, England, I climbed to the top of the bell tower of St. Mary's Parish Church: what a VIEW, and it was a perilous climb, and you get to the top and there are just planks, and the bells ARE on wheels and they are huge and they are frightening. I had read an account of a tourist who climbed up there and they started to ring them and he nearly died of fright, and I would have, too, there are only boards, and you can barely hang on.

don't you LOVE the idea that they ring out you when you die? First pealing for you being male or female and then your age, that gave me literal chills!!

This past summer, in Paris, we stayed across from the church of St. Germain L'Auxxerois (sp) and the BELLS the BELLS as Poe said, they rang and rang and rang, long songs, (yes they did play the scorned songs) (I think it was electronic)! The first time I heard them peal I ran into the street trying to find WHERE they were coming from, it went on and on, it just FILLED the air, and the desk clerk rolled his eyes and said yes, there they go again, what MAGIC in the bells. That same Church is famous for pealing those bells in the St. Barthelomew's Day Massacre, but they would rival any carillon now.

What magic Sayers brings us in their names and the pealing, more more, every sentence written brings back so many memories I can't stop writing, but one thing is for sure, anybody who reads this book will come away with a new appreciation of church steeples, bells, and ringing.

I have a million terms underlined to find out about, am hoping people will bring here urls of fabulous stuff.

Now the "Tailors" are what, exactly? They aren't TAILORS that sew, why are they called TAILOR in real life?

And why Nine?

I'm really looking forward to this one!

ginny

Pedln! We were posting together, so glad to see you here! Don't TELL me there's nothing on the internet about this!! I had so looked forward to learning more, in fact...well more anon on that. In my paperback edition, page 100 is 4 pages into the second chapter, and the last three paragraphs on my page 100 begin with these words:

Last paragraph on page 100:

"The fact that he is dark and bearded and that the man....

The next to the last paragraph is one line of dialogue:

What makes you think it may be the same man?

And the third paragraph from the last begins with this line:

I have been taken to see the body and from my observation

I have a wonderful edition, it's not large print but it's very like it, it's paperback, large, and put out by Harcourt, I've just ordered 3 more Sayers, this is my first, too, and won't be my last!

ginny

Bill, I am not reading the book, but I am listening to the complete and unabridged version of "The Nine Tailors" on tape. It's read by Ian Carmichael who played Lord Peter Wimsey in the PBS versions of a number of Sayers' mysteries. He does make the bell ringing scenes pretty interesting and even exciting at times.

I will not be posting except to occasionally comment on your posts, but I will be reading your posts with great interest,and trying to keep to the same pace.

Ginny, I loveed your description of your personal experience with bell ringing!

Thank you, Horselover!! How does the book seem when listened to? Does it seem confusing about the terms? Would you believe (Bill will be telling me to shut up here but I TRULY love this book) I have never seen or heard a Whimsey production?

ginny

I, too, was fascinated by the bells. Wish I could hear the kind of change-ringing in England she talks about. The bells almost become characters in the book, don't they? Each with its own human name. (Interesting they're all referred to as though they are feminine, even big booming Paul and Thomas.) And they are spoken of as though they are almost human with their "mute black mouths gaping downward, brooding in their ancient places." They have waists and shoulders -- "he gave her a pat on her bronze shoulder." As well as the story about the bell (Thomas) who was said to have purposely killed two men. Eerie...

Welcome, George, I'm happy you got back in time. Yes, the table of contents had me confused as to how to set the reading schedule that's why I decided on discussing a number of pages. I hoped every body had the same paper back edition of Harcourt that Ginny and I have.

Since my maternal grandmother was born and raised in England's north country, I managed fairly well with the language. And, as you know, there are different speaking dialects in Great Britain the same as we have in the various sections of our nation.

It seemed Dorothy did spend an inordinate amount of time on Bell Ringing, even going so far as to diagram the sequence of the ringing on several pages. I still wonder why she did this. It did present slow going for me on the first section of the novel.

George, I have your links and will be posting the very soon.

Pedlin, that's an interesting question you ask:" are called "tailors." Maybe someone can answer that one. I see Ginny solved the problem of indicating the ending of the "so called" hundred pages. I'll indicated the "chapter" endings by posting the last sentences of each chapter the way Ginny did.

Ginny, wonderful post. Just reading about you climbing those slippery stone steps up into that bell tower gave me chills. I bet your parents didn't know you did this.

So, Ginny, you found out first hand what huge bells look like when you visited St. Mary's Parish Church in Rye, England is this in Fen country?

The church I belonged to as a child would toll the bell as a the funeral procession hearse would begin it's approach to the church and would keep toiling until the casket of the deceased was placed in front of the church altar. What a mournful sound that was, especially when the tolled for a deceased member of one's family. I wonder if some churches still do that.

Horselover, welcome aboard. It would be interesting to hear your comments on what you are listening to as compared to the place we are at in our reading.

Oh, Ginny, I would never dream of telling you to shut up. I love reading your posts.

Marjifay, I got the impression that Sayers subtly brought out that the Bells and the Fen country are the main characters of the novel. The theme of the both threads all through the novel.

Bill H

Look look!! Bill, I did not know your mother's grandmother was from England, how interesting! What is the FEN country? Where is that?

Rye is in Sussex, down near the coast, in fact it was one of the Cinque Ports, but the water receeded, it's up from Brighton and Hastings.

Oh good point on the bells and the country being characters and well said, Marjifay on the business aboutt the "she" and the masculine bell names! How marvelously strange!

I, too, noticed that "shoulder," now I want to know what a "shoulder" on a bell is!

I want to hear it, too, very much so now, just look at what I've found so far, look look (you have to look it up under CHARGE RINGING)

Tons o information on Change Riging, still going strong!

Learning How to Ring (looks like Lord Peter WAS sent from heaven, it's not something everybody knows how to do!

Glossary of Ringing Terms We need to keep this close at hand

LOOK LOOK Barrow Upon Humber Ringing Center, and a contact number, maybe we can get a recording or something, very exciting.

I'm going to England this Fall and on my several days off from my class at Oxford I plan to tour, going to see, for instance, where Remains of the Day (which book we read and reviewed here as well as the film) was shot and I don't see any reason on earth why I can't find one of these ringing centers and go hear the bells, can you? And if I DO I'll bring back a tape and we can mail it out if we can't get one we can play here, still looking!!!

So fun!

ginny

George, I'm posting the link you sent me by e-mail. I know you have some other links as well, if you still have them would you be good enough to post them for us.

The following link is the one you sent me for posting. The first graphic is not opeing all the way on my desk top. Let me know if it opens completely for you

Change Ringing

Bill H

Wow, Billl!! That is a FABULOUS site!

Great links you gave us on Bell Ringing Ginny. Thanks to all of you readers this discussion is off to a great start.

Ginny, my grandmother was born in a little town in the North of England called Stockton on Tees. I'm not certain if this town is in Fen country.

This map will give you an idea of where the Fen Country is located, using London, England as the focal point of directions.

Fenlalnd

Bill H

Miss Sayers subtly described the distinction between servant and aristocrat in the England of the twenties and thirties. After Lord Wimsey run the car of the bridge, he and Bunter hiked the road that lead to Fen Church St. Paul. Along the way the two men spoke as equals, however, after arriving at the rectory, Mrs. Venables learned that Bunter was Wimsey's servant and whisked him out of the living-room into the kitchen with the other servant. Did any of you folks pick up on this?

Bill H

Ginny, It is not at all confusing when you listen to the tapes. Ian Carmichael does a wonderful job, especially with the dialects, and you have no trouble following the story and keeping track of the characters. I'm glad you are going to post both the page numbers and the last sentence of each chapter. It will certainly help me know where everyone is up to.

Bill, It's not just that Bunter is a servant; Wimsey is a Lord. As such, he is of a higher class than virtually everyone in the village.

Horselover, I just had to point out how readly Mrs. Venables picked up on it.

Bill H

Ginny, has already given the closing sentences of page 100 for those of you who are reading from a different size book
The following two paragraphs are from page 200 of my book.
"What I says is," he observed, leaning so earnestly over the door of the Daimler that Wimsey hurriedly drew back his feet, thinking that the usual expectoration was about to follow, "what I says is. Why don't they refer it to Geneva? See? Why don't they refer it to Geneva? Then we might get it, same time as they gets disarmament, see?
"Ha, ha!" said Wimsey, rightly supposing this to be irony. "Very good! I must tell my friends about that.
This is the closing paragraph of my page 301.
"I'll buy it," said Mr. Blundell. "I'm like you, my lord, I'm doing no more guessing. What's the bit you haven't solved, by the way?"
This is the last text of my 397 in my book.
He rose to his feet.
"I'll wish you good-morning, gentlemen," he said, and went out.
Using the last sentence of the page before 301 would've revealed too much.

Bill H

Just a note to say I am still in the US (until Sunday) so I cannot get to the other sites I had on change ringing - they are stored on my computer in Cayman. Some of them have audio of the bells ringing different changes. You may need a high speed connection to get it to sound right.

I am intrigued (is that how you spell it) by the chapter titles as I suspect that they mean something in the mystery.

George, I followed your advice and kept reading. I am glad. I am enjoying it. I hate to turn down any mystery. This is my first mystery by Dorothy Sayers.

Bill H, I have a weird sense of humor. This line just gave me a good laugh. There is another body discovered in the grave, and the constable is called. These are the words that made me laugh.

"So we clears away very careful, and at last we sees him plain. And I says, 'Dick, I don't know who he is nor yet how he got here, but he didn't ought to be here.'

I know. I am laughing alone, but that line did crack me up.

Ginny, I enjoyed your travel memories. Your memories about church bells pushed me to read further.

Sayers was a master of it. I also have the audio version read by Ian Carmichael and am enjoying it very, very much. He has been a favorite of mine since I first watched him as "Lord Peter" 30? 35? 40? years ago on PBS Mystery.

I found this explanation of the title on the Net:

"American readers should know that the title comes from an English saying "Nine tailors make a man". Its meaning and origin is unknown, but it is usually explained as being based on the traditional nine bells, that is, the nine tollers, rung at a man's death."

Phyll, thank you for the meaning of the title. I am very confused by the letter on page 80 in my book. It is a note about elephants and fairies. At this point, is it alright to be confused by this note? In some way, I suppose, it is a clue to the mystery. What a strange note!!

I received this e-mail from George:

Here are a number of links that could be of interest in the Nine Tailor discussion.

Links about English bell ringing that may be of interest.

http://web.mit.edu/bellringers/www/change_instruction.html

http://www.pbs.org/teachersource/mathline/concepts/music/activity2.shtm

http://www.pbs.org/teachersource/mathline/concepts/music/act2wks.pdf

http://www.villagekey.com/index.html

http://www.villagekey.com/index.html

Bill H

Hats, you are not laughing alone. I came accross several quotes in the novel that gave me a smile or two.

Hi, Phyll, I agree with you about Sayers being a master of descriptive writing. I have read several of her novels and she proved it in all of them. Yes, the the nine Tailors were tolled for a man's death and eitht Tailors were tolled for a woman's death. However, I'm still wondering about the name "Tailors."

Hats you weren't alone in being confused by some of the clues given us. I pondered many minutes on some of the diagram and letters that were in the novel.

Bill H

Ginny, I would've loved to have made that climb to the top of the bell tower of St Mary's Church in England. Just to see the hugeness of those bells would have been worth the climb. I can well imagine that they are freighting objects when viewed up close because one know what they can do and how dangerous the bells can be. Were you able to take any pictures of them. These planks you stood on do they have a guard rail around then?

I first read this book when I was still in my teens. I must admit I forgot most of it during the ensuing years. I was under the impression the bells were named after the apostles, however, this second reading refreshed my memory. The names of the bells are as follows:

gaude, Sabaoth, John, Jericho, Jubilee, Dimity, Batty Thomas and Tailor Paul.

I found it interesting as to how Sayers named these bells.

Bill H

Bill, me too, do you think bells have names in real life? We know how Batty got its name, but not the others yet.

I REALLY like, as Phyll said, the descriptive writing, the atmosphere or aura of the book.

We, the readers, are forced into our own mystery, we're taking part in it too, I bet you not one in 1,000 readers knows what the chapter titles mean or the strange note, or all those numbers about the ringing sequences, and by doing that the author is engaging US too, it's really delicious, and it was hard to stop at page 100.

I have got a list a mile long of the terms here I have no earthly idea what they're talking about, will list a few at the end if somebody has a clue, would appreciate knowing what they're about.

THANK you for that old saying, Phyll! How interesting! And here's the text on the Nine Tailors, bearing out what Phyll said, "Toll-toll-toll; and a pause; toll-toll-toll; and a pause; toll-toll-toll; the nine tailors, or teller strokes, that mark the passing of a man." (page 36).

OK now, Bill, I'm as confused as you are about the word "Tailor." Here she seems to be saying that tailors means teller strokes, so...does that mean that Tailor Paul is the guy who...? As we can see I'm VERY confused and loving every minute.

George, can't wait till you get back home, thank you for the fabulous links, printed out that first one and have enjoyed it NO end! Would KILL to actually hear those bells, this is wonderful!!

We ought to get up a list of the foreshadowing in this thing, Marjifay has mentioned that the bell Batty Thomas "killed" two men, that's ominous and something you don't often hear!

(Are these bells called men's names but referred to as "she" in real life?)

Bill YES photos do you think I can find them? No I don't recall a guard rail, will see if I can find my pictures (tho why TAKE any if you can never find them again, that's the question!@) And I did notice the Butler to the servant's quarters, but that's what would have happened in the 30's very authentic, very Upstairs, Downstairs, Remains of the Day touched on the changes after WWII in that situation, the new owners trying to be "friendly" with the Butler, very well written book.

(The FENS URL you put here is a fabulous site, our Bill, thank you for that, so your mother's grandmother was from this very area!!)

Hats, aren't you kind, and YES a totally incomprehensible note, can't make heads or tails out of it, don't you love it!! (Yes funny on the dialogue at the grave, I've always wondered how they clear about around a corpse, now we know: with their hands, ugg).

THIS was glorious:

Out over the flat, white wastes, of fen, over the spear-straight, steel-dark dykes and the wind-bent, groaning poplar trees, bursting from the snow-choked louvers of the belfry, whirled away southward and westward in gusty blasts of clamour to the sleeping countries went the music of the bells.

That entire passage which continues with Tailor Paul "bawling" is just exquisite. I wish I could write like that.

Reminds me of Poe, does it anybody else?

Hear the mellow wedding bells -
Golden bells!

What a world of happiness their
harmony foretells!

Through the balmy air of night

How they ring out their delight! -

From the molten - golden notes,
And all in tune,
What a liquid ditty floats
To the turtle - dove that listens, while
she gloats
On the moon!
Oh, from out the sounding cells,
What a gush of euphony voluminously
wells!
How it swells!
How it dwells
On the Future! - how it tells
Of the rapture that impels
To the swinging and the ringing
Of the bells, bells, bells -
Of the bells, bells, bells, bells,
Bells, bells, bells -
To the rhyming and the chiming of the bells!

Edgar Allen Poe's Bells

Here's another beautiful piece of writing, a word picture:

The congregation streamed out from the porch, their lanterns and torches flitting away into the whirling storm like sparks tossed from a bonfire.

Like sparks, can't you see that, the simile is just ...all of the writing in this thing is wonderful.

My understanding is that Sayers was a scholar. I understood that she wrote a translation of the Inferno, is that so? I don't know much about her, do any of you? It's amazing how many mystery writers ARE, however, people of great learning or scholarship. Sure comes thru in her writing, and tell you something else, I have not read anything like it lately, have you?

OK stuff I'm confused on:

"Knowing that it is unlucky to walk about a church widdershins...(page 40). What is widdershins and what does it mean? I did not know it was unlucky, no wonder I have so much bad luck, I assume it means to turn left?

"Isn't the parclose lovely?" (page 59) what is a parclose?

Now on the choir stalls, when they speak of "misereres," do they mean misericords? If so I think I do know what that is, that's on page 60.

Now the references to Cromwell's men, are they talking about the destruction Henry VIII ordered on the monasteries?

I was really horrified, if you go now to Canterbury, the audio tour points out the windows Henry had smashed that had Thomas a Becket on them, people had thought of him as a saint and had made pilgrimage to him since the time of Henry II, Henry VIII ordered his body removed and they destroyed all the windows but they missed one because they did not realize it was his and it's still there, I really had no idea of the destruction, is that the same Cromwell? I always get my Cromwell's confused, for some strange reason.

So we have a body in the grave of Lady Thorpe (should we be listing all the clues you all see? I am notorious for never EVER guessing the murderer? NEVER...(Do YOU? Can YOU figure out hu dun it before the end?) Maybe it's because I never assemble the clues the author hides so well) and if Sir Henry had not expressed the desire to be buried in the same grave I guess it would never have been found? (I thought it was charming that they had to debate whether or not to ring the bells for him)

So who is the body why is his face mashed in, what does the strange note mean how does anybody on earth ever memorize those strange patterns of bell ringing, all those numbers, could the numbers have anything to do with it, do the names or the chapter titles mean something? What other clues have I missed? I bet they are there!

ginny

Wait for me I hope to catch up on the story. I have a D. Sayers book called 3 for Lord Peter Wimsey, but none of them are 9 tailors

Welcome, Hydro2!! We're holding on discussing pages 3- 100 until next MONDAY plenty of time for you to come on in, Bill will be so excited! I'm here so I'll say welcome in!!

ginny

Hydro2, I also want to add a Welcome so happy you joined in. Our list of readers is growing and, oh, how I love it.

Ginny, that was truly a remarkable post you gave us and just saying thank you doesn't seem good enough. However I will say THANK YOU, Ginny.

Bill H

I found it difficult to accept Lord Wimsey's endurance. Here is what I mean. After he run his car off the bridge, he and Bunter hiked 10klm to Fen Church St. Paul. Following the accident and being up all day, the Rector asked Wimsey to participate in a full peal of bell ringing to celebrate the coming of the new year. Adding to that Wimsey took part in a rehearsal prior to the formal peal. After supper that night, which didn't start until around 8 o'clock, and lasted who knows how long. His Lordship retired after supper and got about two-hours sleep at the most before joining the other ringers for the bell peal that would last nine and a half hours. Topping all of that, and if my memory serves me correctly, he stayed up all New Year's day seeing to the repair of his auto and listening to the theft of the emeralds. Now that is stretching the endurance of anyone person. I would've collapsed long before nine-thirty New Year's day.

Ahhh!! At last, we have come to the burglary of the emeralds. The Wilbraham emeralds and the debatable paying for them by Sir Henry Thorpe introduces another major theme that will play a large role as our mystery continues. By the way, do you feel that Sir Henry Thorpe should've reimbursed Mrs. Wilbraham for the theft of her emeralds ?

Bill H

Hi All, I loved Dorothy Sayers for her ego-saving pronouncement(second paragraph, page 22). She explains:

'The art of change-ringing is peculiar to the English, and, like most English peculiarities, unintelligible to the rest of the world.'

I breathed a sigh of relief and decided not to worry about not knowing what the heck she was talking about. I understood enough to catch on to the part they played in the story.

I think the title is great. Sayers sets up ringing the Nine Tailors as a great mental muddle that is untangled bit by bit through the book in the same way way she unravels the circumstances of the gruesome murder that takes place. The two are interwoven throughout the story.

I thought the murky gray flatness of the Fens provided a perfect setting. I had read about the Fens before in Martha Grimes' The Case Has Altered. She does a fine job of describing them as lowland reclaimed from the sea.

I, too, had a hard time getting into the book. It set me to thinking about the books I read as a kid in the forties and fifties. Seems like all books then took a while to get into. These were pre-tv days when words had to provide all the sights and sounds and experiences of the story. Everything had to be described more fully for us to see and hear it.

Bill, Is it a bird, is it a plane - no its Lord Wimsey! He does not require rest like most of us. The excitement of the chase girds his loins to battle evil in the English country side.

Welcome, Pat. your post is right on the mark. I also thought the atmosphere of the Fens, the way the English moors set the tone for Rebecca, was a perfect setting for this story. Yes, the book did take some getting into. I believe it was due to Sayers delving in a little too much about change ringing. But after I got past that part her novel moved along fairly well.

Hi, George. Thank you for the links. You know, we both had the same thought I was thinking of Superman when Wimsey was going through that first day. However, you expressed it very well.

Bill H

I believe Sir Henry was over reacting when he compensated Mrs. Wilbraham for the theft of her necklace. It's true he did recommend Deacon for employment but, d it was her place to ascertain the honesty of an employee before hiring one. After all the that valuable piece jewelry was her responsibility and while it was in her possession she should have looked to the safety of the priceless necklace I suppose what I'm trying to say is instead of allowing the necklace to remain vulnerable to theft in her bed-room she could and should have found a far safer place for it. If it had been placed in a wall safe, Deacon could not have gotten his hands on it so easily. But for Mrs. Wilbraham to accept compensation from Sir Henry Thorpe for its theft showed a complete lack of responsibility and feeling of the woman. I would appreciate hearing your thoughts about the compensation of the necklace by Sir Henry.

Miss Sayers painted a picture of a ghoulish atmosphere when she told of a body being buried in a newly dug grave under the cloak of darkness. Can't you just picture the process taking place late at night with one body being placed over another one. Shades of Frankenstein. I realize the flower wreaths had to be replaced on the grave in order to make it look as though it hadn't been touched, but it did seem sorta humorous to me as I thought of the perpetrator placing flowers on the gruesome job he had just finished.

Bill H

George, I'm glad you answered Bill's question for us -- he just doesn't need it. I'm wondering how old he is and other vital statistics, and where this particular title fits in timewise with Sayers' other writings. I'm assuming that at this point he is still single, though I understand that at some point in his "career" (in another book) he marries a woman who has initially been accused of a crime.

Many thanks Ginny, Bill, and George for your links to info on the Fen and "change ringing." Now there's a term I never would have thought to use. I look forward to exploring those sights more.

Wow.. You guys have been really busy here. I am out for two days and messages just poured in.. Ginny.. Widdershins generally seems to mean counter clockwise.. or backwards by their standards. I love the bells and the names. I started reading Dorothy quite early on and over the years have tried to discover stuff about the bells because they are so interesting. Dorothy was a religous author and always thought that her detective stories were just a minor art form. She was quite annoyed that they became so popular and took to hating Peter after a while, although in several interviews, she admitted that Harriet was modeled after her. I love the jewel theft because it seems so classic for a mystery based in England.

Nine Tailors fans: This is really turning out to be fun and fascinating. I have had a chance to read a lot of the critical works about Sayers' work (found in a univ. library) and that adds a great dimension to an already fascinating and inspiring lady. I have read her works again and again since the '60s, and can always find a new wrinkle or idea that is highlighted or returned to even now when SN is doing her wonderful book. isak

Welcome Pat From Texas (what part?)

Stephanie and

Isak!!

Bill I believe you just broke the record for fabulous crowd of insightful readers assembled!! Amazing, and very satisfying!!

I don't really understand the necklace theft thing, yet ANOTHER mystery? I didn't understand any of that, could some of this be a "red herring?" And here we have the "butler dun it,"(so far as theft is concerned) quite early on in the piece, strange?

Pat, two wonderful points, thank you for the "ego-saving pronouncement"> good good point and I loved your point about the books of the 40s and 50s taking a leisurely time to get to the point, in that same workshop I mentioned earlier, the leader said you have two paragraphs and two only to capture the attention of the modern editor, if you don't, your manuscript is in the trash. She said often you need it in the first two sentences. Quite a change from our old authors!! Super point!

Pedln thank you for that background information also!

Thank you for "widdershins," Stephanie, does that mean widow's shins? Don't you love these words??

And you know what, George and Bill, that bell ringing is exhausting, too, for anybody, much less to go all night! You pull on the thing hard, it's very heavy but then it gets a momentum of its own and you can't simply just let go you have to control it. (how do they manage a trip to the loo, one wonders?) Just an idle mind here hahahaah

Isak, tell us more about Sayers, I appreciate Stephanie's information very much, ANOTHER author, another intellectual who wanted their other writings to be appreciated, like Arthur Conan Doyle, and who, like Doyle, grew irritated and overwhelmed with their detective. Basil Rathbone found Holmes the same way, and he quit playing him abruptly right in the middle of the radio series, to Nigel Bruce's chagrin, caused a bit of a rift between them for a while, successful series and after 14 movies together, he just felt suffocated by Holmes. In fact it was not until Doyle's own mother begged him to revive Holmes whom he killed off, that he did, or so I understood, the cry went up all over the world when he killed him off.

Bill, I'm thinking on the compensation angle that as Host, the person owning the house needed to make up to the guest for whatever damages that guest suffered when under the hosts's roof, especially when it was the hosts's own staff which stole it, I'm afraid I would have had to do the same, you can't have people staying as your guests and then cause them harm. The necklace, tho, should have been insured, was it? I find the necklace theft very strange in a book already filled with mystery!! But as Stephanie said, it DOES fit in with what we expect in an English mystery, such fun this all is, how enjoyable!

ginny

Pedlin, just guessing but I think Wimsey is about forty-something. I'm probably way off the age mark.

Stephanie, Sayers probably came to disliking Lord Peter Wimsey stories the same way Sir Arthur Conan Doyle came to dislike his Sherlock Holmes stories, However, they were bread and butter for the both authors. You know, I too came to know more about "Bells" than I ever even thought about.

Welcome, Izak. I'm so glad you are enjoying this discussion. Please join in with your ideas of the "detecting" of Wimsey. I'm sure with all the Sayers' works you have read you can come up with some informative posts.

Ginny, I'll have to reread the part of the necklace theft. I do believe you are right. Mrs. Wilbraham was a guest in the house when Deacon stole the necklace. I was groggy from reading about so much bell ringing.

Bill H

I'm not sure if this link was posted before, but to read a brief biography and see her photograph use the link below. I found it very interesting. And I'm happy to say I found out what her middle name was.

Dorothy Leigh Sayers

I'm just guessing but perhaps the Daimler automobile Wimsey drove was a thirty something model. However, you can view other year models by clicking on the index on the left side of the web page. But for now here is how to get to the Daimlers.

Daimler Automobiles

I liked the big old 1925-1926 model Daimler my self. Can't you just picture this big 1925 model hitched to the back of a farm wagon and being towed by two horses) What year models did you folks like best on that web site?

Bill H

Bill,

Regarding Sir Henry's compensation of Mrs. Willbersham: I think Sir Henry had no choice in the matter. Compensating Mrs. Willbersham was (to his way of thinking) a matter of duty and honor. He was not the kind of man to shirk the duties of his station.

I couldn't think of one positive thing to say about old Mrs. Wilbersham until near the end of the story. I can't say more about it or I'll reveal too much, but it changed my thinking about her and made me want to know her character better. Why would she behave one way and act another, I wonder? Fun to speculate about, don't you think?

Pat in Texas

Pat, it is true. Sir Henry did do the honorable thing. I don't suppose he could ever have eased his conscience otherwise. Not to many in the parish had anything good to say about Mrs. Wilbraham.

I'm trying to fix an approximate decade for this novel. I'm not sure it was mentioned in the book. But since people were being struck down from influenza, would it not be reasonable to assume that the story took place in the 1920s? Both Lady Thorpe and Sir Henry Thorpe were stricken by it and the servants were saying what a terrible scourge influenza was. Didn't the flu take place in the twenties?

The Rector should be commended for placing himself in danger by visiting those with the flu, with complete disregard for his own health. I'm sure Mrs. Venabels worried about her husband going into harms way. Bill H

Bill you asked about old cars, here's my favorite which, thanks to this discussion I managed to find out the name of it's in the Deutches Museum in Munich: the Minerva Only 40 in the world and yours for only $190,648.10 USD. Worth every penny, too, just lOOK at it!! The Minerva top to bottom

What a dream car, I can see Lord Peter whizzing long very nicely in that, I think it's from 1926, and great question Bill on the influenza epidemic of that era, seems to me when we read Flu there WAS one, but I don't know when!

Also you had asked about what the bells looked like in the bell tower of St. Mary's Parish Church in Rye and here they are!! I found the pictures, great luck, didn't think much of this photo but I sure am glad I have it, now! Bells in the Bell Tower (would you call that a belfry?) and here's the View from the Bell tower of Rye, England.

St. Mary's Parish Church in Rye dates from the mid 12th century, and the town is one of the 15th century Cinque Ports. There's a charming story which I can't find about one of the bells, the biggest one, being stolen by the French who constantly attacked the town, but it was recovered later and I believe it, too, had a name. Here's more on Rye

ginny

Oh, Ginny, what great links you gave us. I'd love to have that Minerva. I book marked that web because I want to look at that car again and again. I love old cars. I wish I had that link when I was doing Antiques in CM. And what a great view that was from the Bell Tower. Was it a difficult climb?

Bill H

Interesting tid bit - the very first Daimler really exists and is owned by someone in the Cayman Islands. I actually saw it being uncrated a few months ago. It looks very much like a horse drawn small wagon with a very small engine in the rear. It has very large back wheels. I forget how it is steered but I seem to remember a lever of some type was used to move the front wheels. The engine runs (may not be original) and the car can be driven.

I have been noticing Lord Peter has a couple of very glamorous cars - in Strong Poison,he tells Bunter to "Launch the Lagonda" and then he is seen (in the video) driving through central London, leaping out to attend the Court where Harriet is being tried. Later in the Nine Tailors, there is the Daimler....and one could go through all of the Wimsey books to see what Lord Peter is driving. Isak

George, I was reading on the Internet that the first vehicle Daimler made was in 1896. Does this seem to coincide with the year of the vehicle you saw?

Isak, Perhaps Wimsey (or Sayers) changed cars to suit his/hers fancy.

Bill H

Would all of you please describe your feelings as you read Sayers description of the mutilated corpse after they found it in Lady Thorp's grave, and do you believe reading the book at night lends a more sinister atmosphere to the novel?.

Bill H

Here is what I found on the Internet about the flu epidemic:

BETH FARNSWORTH: "…that disease is influenza and specifically the 1918 flu virus that killed 675,000 Americans and more than 20 million people around the world…"

I was under the impression that this novel took place much later than 1918. As we read further along in the book you will understand why I feel this way.

Where we are presently in the book, what do you think the approximate year may be?

Bill H

I just found a reference to the 1918-1919 influenza Pandemic: http://www.stanford.edu/group/virus/uda/ Hope it is helpful isak

Isac, good link. The first graphic gives you the chills.

Ginny, you asked what the shoulder of the bell is. Well, I foud this on the interenet.

SHOULDER (OF BELL): Curved area between the head and wall.

Folks do you think this novel took place in the twenties?

Bill H

Forgive me if someone has already answered your questions about some of the terms, I found this definition for:

"widdershins" or "withershins" - You walk widdershins round something, you have your left side nearest it.

"PARCLOSE" (from the O. Fr. par dore, to close thoroughly; Lat. claudere), an architectural term for a screen or railing used to enclose a chantry, tomb, chapel, &c., in a church, and for the space thus enclosed.

And this I found the most interesting:

"misereres", or the sculpture that is used to decorate the under-side of the seats which are in the choirs of our cathedrals and collegiate churches, art that normally gets overlooked.

As for the time setting for this story, I have no proof of it but just feel that it is the late teens (just after WWI) or early twenties. I'll have to see if I can find out for sure.

Bill, I was wondering about the time of this novel also so spent a little time looking for clues. In the Second Course, p. 66 in my LP copy Mrs. V is giving W a bit of history about the robbery. So --:
1. Deacon broke out of prison 1918
2. Body found two years later
3. Thoday marries Mary
4. "That was ten year ago, and they've got two fine kids . . ."

So, it seems to me the time is at least 1930.

Pedlin, Very clever of you to arrive at the period in time in the manner you did. I also got the impression the era was the thirties. Thanks to you I'm sure of it. But I think it odd that Sayers never mentioned a specific date somewhere in the novel.

Phyll, thank you for explaining all those terms to us. Next time I walk around something with my left side closest to it I'm going to think of "wiiddershins."

Bill H

Bill H,

I am enjoying all the links. I enjoyed looking at the antique cars, learning about influenza, reading the poem given by Ginny and the terms explained by Phyll.

When Lady Diana died, I remember hearing the loud, sad toll of the bells in England. It seemed as if the bells were in mourning too. Were those change bell ringers?

Will the meaning of the quotation given in the heading of the beginning chapter come clear later? I have read it twice.

Then, there is Bunter. I like Bunter, Lord Wimsey's man, but what are his duties? Is he just a companion or more like a butler?

I think he is more of a valet and sometimes a companion. It seems to me that I remember in the old PBS Wimsey series that he had more of a presence than he seems to have in this story but I always enjoyed his down to earth sense of things and the way he cared for Lord Peter while at the same time "putting up" with some of his escapades.

I have changed my mind and agree with Pedlin and Bill that the time was later than I thought---more in the early 30's. The copyright date on the book is 1934 so it could be that Sayers was writing in the present. Of course, the emerald necklace robbery was 20 years before, wasn't it? And it was stolen in April, 1914, so that would make the time of the story 1934. As for the robbery, it would seem that in this case it is really true that "the butler did it". <grin>

Hats, I am not an authority on change ringers, but in this story it was pointed out that the bells toll for a death and peal for a celebration. Several ringers are used for pealing and only one ringer for tolling. So I suppose in the case of Lady Diana the bells were "tolled" rather than pealed. However, as I said I'm not an authority on bell ringing.

I do believe that the explanation has already been given for the name of the title. In the case of a man's death Nine Tailors are tolled and when a woman dies Eight Tailors are tolled This is followed by the age of the deceased. I wonder if this same practice is still carried out in Great Britain. Does anyone know? I'll try to find the meaning of "Tailors. "And yes, Pedlin did a fine job of pointing out the year(s) this story took place.

Bill H

We will soon be starting the second week of our discussion of Dorothy L. Sayers' The Nine Tailors,which is the next hundred pages or what I posted for those who have a differen size book other than what I have

Would all of you be so kind as to post your thoughts about the first one-hundred pages of this mystery?

Bill H

I found this on the internet about "Nine Tailors"

"....American readers should know that the title comes from an English saying "Nine tailors make a man". Its meaning and origin is unknown, but it is usually explained as being based on the traditional nine bells, that is, the nine tollers, rung at a man's death."

The above quote is taken from the last paragraph in the article. You can read the entire brief explanation by clicking on

Tollers

Perhaps due to the dialects of the various parts of England the word "Toilers" somehow changed to "Tailors."

Bill H

Phyll, thank you so much for those definitions, "parclose," now that makes sense, in Canterbury you can see the tomb, surrounded by a parclose of the...is it Edward the Black Knight (and I've always been fascinated by..."and his Achievements.") Which appear to be flags and a sword, interesting, sometimes those parcloses are more impressive than the tomb. And thanks for the definition of widdershins, I looked the old word up in the Old OED for the derivation, hoping to find widows, and it says

widdershins: see withershins... (so there goes the widow theory ahahah) and THAT says,
dialectical, chiefly Scottish, adverb, 1513. from MLG and HGJ f wider WITHER and gen. of sin (way) direction. I...
In a direction, opposite to the usual; the wrong way- 1721.
In a direction contrary to the apparent course of the sun considered as unlucky or causing disaster (1545).
So now that we know it's to the right we can be careful to avoid disease and disaster when we walk around a house!

Now the misericord is a fold up seat used in medieval times when the services were long they are everywhere in England and are carved in a fantastic way under the seat, here are a few, The Misericords of Exeter check out numbers 11 and 13, which do you like best, kind of remind me of gargoyles!

So we here are steeped in lore, I know the rector said "Norman," and that fits in with the misericords, too.

Have you noticed the names at all? Did they give you a chuckle? Dick Gotobed hahaahah grave digger, Venables as in Venerable, the Rector, Wimsey as in Whimsey the detective, the names never would have occurred to me if Sayers herself had not made a point of the names of the bells, now I wonder if they mean anything, we must keep our eye on Mr. Godfrey, huh? Hahaahah

Bill, I don't know if they still ring those or not, but I do know at Oxford where I am taking a course in August, they ring the bell there, an 18,000 pounder, called Great Tom, 101 times every night at 9:05, signaling the closing of the Christ Church College Gates, the number is for the number of students when Oxford was founded, I have a feeling that the serious bell ringers of the country still peal out the dead, I know there are churches in Virginia that do!

I hope to get to Barrow on Hurley and see the change ringing for myself and if I do I'll ask!

No, strangely enough I don't recall the climb to the top of St. Mary's Parish Church in Rye except that I was so out of breath I thought I might have a heart attack, hahaahah other than that, no. haahahah

That was a good question on the feelings we might have on reading the description of the appearance of the corpse, for some reason I got off on the lining the grave with greenery, that's a new one on me and didn't pay too much attention to the corpse, in 2003 I guess we've heard so many grisly things and seen so many movies etc., that we are somewhat distanced from things like this, or are we?

One of the reasons I can never solve a mystery is I do get off on these strange things and miss the clues, now WHERE exactly was that note that made no sense found?? I have no idea what that note means, and, having not read further, have tried various cyphers to figure it out without success, yet something in it nags me, does it you??

Now why is Lord Wimsey testifying at the inquest? I didn't quite follow that. I can understand him returning when Mr. Venables called him (and wasn't it just dear of that man to give him his own book on bell ringing,) I can't see how anybody could dislike Mr. Venables and I will be quite angry if something happens to him.

Yes, and Bill, I think you're right on the tollers/ tailors because we can see in page 86 where she says, "they have rung the nine tailors and forty-six strokes," so that fits very nicely too.

Well, is it tomorrow then, that we go to the new section? What a delicious evening awaits, and I've gotten two more Dorothy Sayers whom I never read in the mail from B&N and both of them look just as promising, this is truly just a super mystery (if you have not read ahead, do you think the corpse and the man coming down the road are the same person? Do you think we have met the murderer yet? This is one mystery I want to figure out!!)

Page 200 in my book is a few pages from the end of the Fifth Part, so I'm going to read all the Fifth Part for tomorrow, if we had any wood I'd build a fire, it's cold, rainy and just the right atmosphere for MYSTERY!!

ginny

Ginny, fine carvings under the seats. I do hope they lifted the seats when not in use so they could be seen. Thank you for the link. I could give you the answers to the questions you asked about the note and Peter Wimsey testifying at the inquest. However, I would like to give our other readers a chance to responds to these two questions.It's cold and rainy up in here in the Pittsburgh area also. We have had a miserable month of May.

The Toller link I posted gave me another insight to Dorothy L Sayers. She seemed to be a very self-willed person and as the author of the article related: "…as usual with Sayers, she makes no explanatory concessions to her less-than-completely-educated readers (in this case, mostly Americans),…" I believe Dorothy was of the impression that if her American readers were interested they would find out for themselves. And that is just what we have done.

Bill H

The second weekof our discussion does start tomorrow (Monday). It begins with the coroner's inquest about the discovery of the second body in Mrs. Thorpe's grave. How about telling us how you felt about that inquest?

Bill H

Hi Bill H and Ginny, I can never solve a mystery either. I wrote down a lot of terms that were new to me: angel-roof and piscina. I think these are church terms. What does an angel roof look like? Then, there is a war term. I think it is a war term. The word is zepplin. Is that like a blimp? Please do not laugh. I am just guessing. I know we are moving onto the next section. It is a little too late to worry about these terms.

I did find it interesting or strange that Mrs. Venables finds the tolling or pealing of the bells "frightening." After all, she lives beside the church, and she is married to the rector. Ginny, I like Mr. Venables too.

Then, there is The Tomb of Abbot Thomas. Is this the tomb of Thomas Becket? See, all of this is new to me. I am having great fun with the mystery and picking up all this new knowledge. I think the corpse and the stranger are the same guy. One thing puzzles me. Where in the world are the emeralds? They were never found.

Hi, Hats, happy you asked these questions. I believe the Tomb of Abbot Thomas refferes to the maker of the bell "Batty Thomas" maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong on this. The explanation of Angel Roof can best be explained by visiting this web site. Scroll down after you get there and you will see the figures of the angels.

Angel Corbels

And this web site explains a Zeppelin very well.

Zeppelin

Read on you will find out what happened to the emeralds. I assure you.

I hope those two links helped you.

Bill H

You are welcome, Hats.

Bill H

Hello, are you all still with us?

Bill H

Well, Ginny, since no one answered your question, I'll give it a try.

I do believe the note you referred to was found by Miss Hilary Thorpe on the floor of the bell chamber after she and Mr. Godfrey climbed up the ladder to see the bells.

Lord Peter, attended the inquest after the Rector invited Wimsey back to St. Paul to give what advice he could about the mystery of the grave and then Wimsey told of seeing a stranger walking the road to St.Paul as he and bunter were on their way to visit Lord Peter's friends.

Bill H

Bill would it be possible to associate chapter numbers and titles with your schedule as I am not sure where you are in the book? My copy is very old.

I think the bells and the description of the church add a certain flavor to the mystery that Dorothy Sayers has written. I am still thinking of the unique beauty of the angel roof. Maybe the angels are engraved into the stained glass of the roof.

"He turned his eyes away, therefore, and fixed them on the splendours of the ANGEL ROOF, lovelier than ever in the soft spring sunshine that streamed through the rich reds and blues of the clerestory windows.

Sorry to say that I am not familiar with CLERESTORY WINDOWS either.

I do not think the stranger who came into town is the same guy who is buried in the grave. The stranger wore an overcoat but the buried guy did not wear one. It worried me that the stranger had a wired hook in his pocket, but I think an explanation was given about why he might have a wired hook in his pocket.

George, unfortunately Sayers did not give chapter numbers with this novel. I wish she had it would've been much easier to schedule.

Right now we are in what Sayers calls "The Second Part" or "LORD PETER IS CALLED INTO THE HUNT."

It begins with a letter from the Rector: "My dear Lord Peter (wrote the Rector)- Since your delightful visit to us in January…." This section really starts with the coroner'sinquest about finding the second body in the grave.

I hope this helps you find the place.

Bill H

Hats, yes, the church and bells thread there way all through the book. And as we continue on with the story the mystery of it all will all fall into place. By the way, I found this web site that has some very beautiful clerestory windows.

Clerestory Windows

Click on the windows to enlarge the picture.

Bill H

I was amused at the way Sayers described the proceedings of the coroner's inquest, especially so of the vocabulary of the local town folks, who wanted to be so informal and the coroner trying to keep the inquest formal.

Sayers use of the word " circumlocutory" instead of "indirect" or "round about" describes her method of writing fairly well

What was your feeling about the cornoner's inquest?

Bill H

Bill H, those windows are just beautiful! Thank you for finding the site. By the way, I felt that the coroner's inquest was like one large friendly town meeting. It was difficult to remember the serious reason for being there. I do like the friendliness of the community.

I loved the coroners inquest. Seemed like a sensible way to decide things. But then I simply love all of her novels and this is a particularly nice one.

Hats and Stephanie, I enjoyed reading about the inquest also. It was hard for the coroner to keep the hearing from becoming so folksy. I don't think the coroner and the doctor got along too well and that added to the humor of the hearing.

I wonder how many police superintendents would've appreciated Wimsey joining in the investigation? Blundel was quite willing to turn all the facts over to Lord Peter. Can you imagine our police departments of today doing the same thing? You know, for a Lord of the Realm, Wimsey seemed to be readily accepted by the towns people quite well. Didn't they all seem to be at ease with him and some of them were not too well off..

The Rector's wife prepared very good meals, however, I don't think I would've enjoyed Mrs. Venabel's dinner of stewed Ox tails. ( I have never eaten any of those.

Bill H

Dear Bill, Hats, and Stephanie,

I'd like to chime in on the coroner's inquest. I loved it, too. Dorothy Sayers' ear for dialects up and down the English social scale is phenomenal. I love all her characters. She succeeds in giving each and everyone of them a very distinctive personality. Helps me know who's who with so many people in the story. I think part of her gift for making characters stand up on the page is the body business she uses as identity tags: e.g., Mr. Wilderspin explores the stubble of his beard with a thick forefinger; Mr. Pratt is unsure which hand is his right. Lord Peter rubs his fingertips together with a gratified smile, etc. etc.

The vividness of the body language coupled with the thundering noise in the inquest room (i.e., Mrs. Leach is warned she'll have to leave if she can't keep her baby quiet--Mr. Wilderspin is asked to find the address of the man in London Driver gave as a reference and he bellows to his wife to hurry home to retrieve it. She, in turn, calls across the room, 'I got it here, Ezra'. Then there is added upheaval as his wife forces her stout frame through the crowd to the front of the room to deliver the address.--Mr. Gotobed is offended and defends himself when he believes the coroner is accusing him of having something to do with Steven Driver's death. The coroner asks sarcastically if Gotobed believes Driver dug his own grave and buried himself. This results in laughter and catcalls from the audience and the coroner has to restore order.) made the coroner's inquest pop to life.

I also loved the efficiency with which Sayers reported the inquest. It was not a word-by-word accounting, but snippets of the the action followed by ellipses (...} to move the narrative along. I have learned more about writing in reading this book than I would have in ten writer's workshops! Thanks, Miss (?) Sayers.

Pat in Texas

Pat, your post 94 was wonderful; I had been making notes of the use of dialect and mannerisms. I also love how Sayers keeps me interested in what is going on without really advancing the plot at all. I think that this is even more evident later in the book. The long description of the bells and their history does not seem to have any clues in it.

Has anyone else noticed that Will Thoday and his wife Mary seem to be getting a lot of attention from Wimsey? There is a comment about his not looking well. And then there are the observations made in church that would seem to indicate that Will is hiding something or feels guilty about something. At least that is how I read the book.

Bill as I read the schedule we are on the second hundred pages. I have started Monsieur Rozier Hunts but believe that this is ahead of the group. There is a lot of interesting material in the previous two or three chapters. I just do not want to forge ahead in my posts.

I am also finding this a very funny book; her humor is typically English.

I think Lord Peter's interest in Will and Mary (Russell) Thoday is because she was married to Deacon (the Thorpe butler) at the time of the emerald necklace robbery at the Thorpe house. Deacon was considered to be the "inside man" with a partner (Cranton) to whom he passed the emeralds through the window. I'm sure that Wimsey is interested because the mystery of the emeralds was never solved. Of course, that would pique his interest! How could he pass up an unsolved mystery!

The audio version that I am listening to is wonderful because the reader, Ian Carmichael, speaks in dialect. It is a little difficult for my American ears to understand sometimes but it adds so much to the story to hear the country dialect actually spoken.

Pat, that was a great description of the inquest, and so on target. My first thought after reading Bill's question was "It sure was laid back."

I've finished the book so will have to watch my words carefully, but I'm leaving for about 10 days next week and have to return my library copy, so I wanted to be sure to get it done.

I've been rereading some, and trying to understand more about the bells. Finally figured out it's do re me, but I don't understand the F sharp instead of F. Is the lowest note, and the biggest bell always called Tailor?

George, Will and Mary Thoday did come across a little worried looking and the sharp eye of Lord Wimsey picked it up. I also had some grave (no pun intended) suspicions of Sir Charles Thorpe after the funeral, when he appeared so anxious to get away from Lord Peter. It seemed as though he was trying to tell Lord Peter: "Don't call me I'll call you." A quick brush off so to speak. I can't recall did this arouse Wimsey's suspicion of Sir Charles?

Pat, yes, DLS does put humor into the novel. Even when they were planning the funeral for the unknown body there was a debate as to tolling the bell because they didn't know the deceased's religion. However, the venerable Venabel laid that doubt to rest when he explained to them the rule was "The Tailors had to be tolled for everybody who died while in the parish even if he was a Roman ) So toll them they did. I can't help but feel the author brought out the English religious feelings as she wrote that.

Yes, she did give some unforgettable names to her characters. And I never fail to get a chuckle when I read the name "Mr. Gotobed. Where did Dorothy find this one.? I also agree with you that Sayers does advance the plot very slowly. Sometimes a little too slowly. But she does like to add detail to her novels.

Phyl, does the audio version of the novel present with as much detail as the book?

Pedlin, you figured out more about the bell ringing than I did. My own opinion of why the biggest bell is called Tailor is due to it making the loudest toll for the country side to know there has been a death in there parish. I suppose that guess is as good as any. Does any one else know the answer to Pedlin's question?,

Bill H

Georgehd, I agree with you about the quagmire surrounding the tolling and pealing code. To my chagrin, all I could think as I read it was that (1)DLS had a far better math mind than mine, or (2) bell ringing is to book length what filler is to hamberger--bulks up the volume!

Then I read Pedln's post and knew option (1) was the true answer. Pedlin, you amaze me. The very thought of being able to figure out that knot of yarn. Even Lord Peter was stymied.

I guess I'll have to leave such intricate persuits to you, Pedln, and to Mr. Venables and Hezekiah Lavendar and Dorothy Sayers.

Pat in Texas

Lord Peter's first chat with Miss. Hilary Thorpe gave me pause for thought. A short excerpt from that conversation reads as follows:

Lord Peter to Miss Hilary:…"Yes-but your luck will come more at the end of life than at the beginning, because the other sort of people won't understand the way your mind works. They will start by thinking you dreamy and remote, and they'll be surprised to discover that you are really hard and heartless. They'll be quite wrong both times--but they won't ever know it, and you won't know it at first, and it'll worry you."
Miss. Hilary replied: "But that's just what the girls say at school. How did you know?…Though they're all idiots--mostly, that is...."

Do you get the felling Miss. Sayers was describing her self when she wrote that passage?

Bill H

The audio version is unabridged and is word for word the same as the printed version. 8 cassettes - 10 hrs., 23 mins. playing time. Exceptionally well done by Carmichael. And he "sings" the ringing of the bells in tone and tempo. A difficult thing to do, I would imagine, while carrying on with the reading of the story. Tailor Paul, being the largest bell, is the lowest tone and the slowest in tempo.

Phyl, thank you for answering my question of the audio version of the Nine Tailors.

In a few days we will be entering the third week of the discssion–the next 100 pages. However, before moving on would all of you please post your thoughts about what you found of most interest, other than the bells, in this second section which we are we are about to finish?. You see, your post will give all of us a discussion direction before moving on with the novel.

Bill H

Pat in Texas, your post was very helpful and fun to read. I had missed most of the unique traits of the characters. With your help I have a clearer view of them.

Bill H, I find the Thoday family very strange. I feel like there are some secrets in that house. Will seems quite edgy about what his wife will say. Then, Mrs. Thoday hushes the children before they can say something that should not be said. Then, for me, this is the ultimate. Will hides the talking Parrot in the other room!! I really want to know what the parrot can tell us. Very laughable.

First, Bill, I am still not sure where the group is; I am on page 197, Lord Peter follows his course to lead". I find these chapter headings more useful than page numbers as my edition may be different from yours.

While there have been numerous sections that I have enjoyed, I want to call attention to the chapter Lord Peter Dodges with Mr. Blundell and Passes Him (the fourth part) page 124 in my book. Note that dodging is retrograde motion with the bells, implying that we are going to go back and forth in the story.

The chapter begins "Well, now, maam, said Superintendent Blundell. "Well, officer?" retorted Mrs. Gates.

What ensues is four or five pages that are delightful to read and imagine. The concern about the placement of the flowers on the coffin and the disdain that Mrs. Gates shows to Blundell shows the author's ear for the English language as spoken by various levels of society.

The humor is also wonderful. For example in Tailor Paul is Called Before with a Single, there is an exchange between Mr. Bludell and Wimsey "But they said Paul Taylor was a bell." "Tailor Paul is a bell, but Paul Taylor may be a person." "Who is he, then." And this goes on for a number of paragraphs. It reminded me of the old Abbott and Costello routine -Who's on First.

I also see the contrast between Blundell and Wimsey striking. Blundell is dull, plodding, poor, literal. Wimsey is urbane, witty, smart and rich.

Hats, yes Sayers does slowly begin to turn suspicion on the Thoday family and we begin to believe they are involved in this affair. I think here is where the author begins to turn more from the bells and focus on the mystery of the novel.

George, I agree with you chapters would've made the reading schedule so much less complex. If my copy of the book showed chapters it would've been much more easy to set a reading schedule.. However, you are just about on the mark. The fourth part of my copy begins on page 157 with the same quote you gave us pertaining to the conversation between Blundell and Mrs. Gates. I have the large paper back edition of this novel. The section we are on now (101 - 200) includes these parts The Third Part: "Lord Peter Is Taken From The Lead And Makes Third Place." The Fourth Part: " Lord Peter Dodges With Mr. Blundell And Passes Him." And The Fifth Part: Tailor Paul Is Called Before With A Single"

When we begin the third week I'll post the parts that are included. It may be more helpful for those who don't have the same edition as I do.

Bill H

I am not hunting for the audio. The idea that he does the bells tolling interests me. I always wanted to have the sounds with the novel.. So.. maybe now I can.

Stephanie, you said "I am not hunting for the audio."

Does this mean you have the audio? I think I may get it also. I would love to hear the sound of the bells.

Bill H

Thanks, Hats! See my double-wide Texas grin?

Pat in Texas

Sunday will be the day we begin the third week of this novel. (pages 201-300) for those of you who have a different edition than mine the the following may be helpful.

THE FIFTH PART.: Tailor Paul Is Called Before With A Single

THE SIXTH PART: Monsieur Rozier Hunts The Treble Down

THE SEVENTH PART: Plain Hunting

THE EIGHTH PART: Lord Peter Follows His Course Bell To Lead

THE NINTH PART: Emily Turns Bunter From Behind

THE TENTH PART: Lord Peter Is Called Wrong

I do hope this helps you follow along and I apologize for the different editions of the book. Perhaps the above will also help the ones who are following the story by audio and video.

Have a nice holliday.

Bill H

On the audio version there are no actual bell sounds! Ian Carmichael, as the reader, "sings" the tones of the bells as part of the narration. I bought my audio version "used" from Amazon.com. I ordered it on-line for $25.44. It was in perfect condition except for some wear on the box. I think his performance is excellent however, I checked out the printed library version because it is easier to flip back and forth for checking on different sections. I think you would enjoy the audio book but I don't want to disappoint anyone who might be expecting actual bells ringing.

Phyll,George and anyone else who has a different copy of the book than mine, did my post #111 help you?

I do feel a bit disappointed that this great mystery did not generate the response I had hoped for.

This is supposed to be the best Dorothy L. Sayers mystery novel. I had intended to discuss many of the old time dectectives, e.g. Nick an Nora Charles, Nero Wolf, etc... but, as of now, I'm not sure I will continue with the old time detective series.

Bill H

Bill please continue with the old mysteries there are many of us who love them. hydro

Bill, post 111 helped a great deal. I am moving along quickly and will try to finish the book early in the week. I am not the best participant in the discussions of fiction as I tend to want to finish the book and move on to something else. I compare this with the study of Greek Civilization where we move very very slowly and where I do take off on multiple tangents that interest me.

I think that it may be hard to have long discussions about mysteries. One of the things that I like about the mystery is that I do not have to use my brain too much and, if the book engages me, can finish it quickly. The thing that I found most interesting in this book was the discussion of bell changing and Sayer's uncanny ear for English dialogue.

One feature of the book that I do not understand are the quotations that begin each chapter in my book. The chapter headings are begining to make more sense to me now.

I do not know if I would be interested in the discussion of other old mystery or detective novels. I am interested in the genre and find that there are many current books that I want to read first (like the Dante Club, another discussion where I lurked in the background and did not say too much). As it is, I have 10 to 20 books sitting on the shelf that I have yet to get to.

I think, Bill, that I would not get discouraged as I suspect that there are enough SeniorNeters who would join an OLD MYSTERY discussion group. Perhaps set this up as a category of discussion and see if there are interested people out there without mentioning a specific book. I am personally grateful to you for suggesting this book as it is one that I would not have read and which I am enjoying a lot.

George, I am happy that post 111 helped you. I hope it helped the others as well. I finished a book even before the discussion starts then I go back and comment on the events I found interesting in the scheduled reading period. . I make these comments and ask questions to encourage the other participants to post on what they found interesting or unique in each segment of the story. I never try to solve a mystery either while reading the book or during the discussion. I also failed to understand the quotations at the beginning of each chapter. It's another case of her adding a bit much to her book.

I believe the various editions or copies of this novel made it difficult to set a schedule and is probably hindering the needed posts. Also trying to follow a book discussion with the use of audio cassettes is a very difficult procedure. The users of audio's have no clear way of discerning where we are in the story and it tends to prevent them from posting along with others in the schedule. A discussion needs the many posts of all the participants then we can comment on what he/she has said as well discussing the novel. A DL can arrange a schedule, ask questions and make, hopefully, an interesting comment. If there is no response or not enough response to the DLs posts the discussion falls.

George, I had the same thought of setting up an OLD MYSTERY category discussion before I chose to discuss the Nine Tailors and I still intend to do this in the Fall. I chose to do this novel at this time for two reasons. First because it was alleged to be Sayers' best mystery and I hoped it would make for a good discussion. The second reason I chose to do this story first is because I will be taking a break from leading discussions until the Fall (out door time, you know) and I did not want to set up the said category before taking my break.. Thank you for your post they are always of interest.

I do hope some of the other participants choose to make some posts of this segment of the story

Bill H

Bill H, I think the idea of reading old mystery authors is wonderful. I am greatly enjoying The Nine Tailors. I hope you will continue with your endeavor of introducing us or reacquainting us with with earlier mystery writers.

Yes I love this too, have had a crash and my harddrive is gone, all 80 gig of it and so am here on the laptop with all files gone, trying to resuurect my mind. hahaahaha

Bill asked earlier about what stands out, I think Wimsey's literateness really jumps out at me, as he goes along he talks to himself in this section, at one time quoting Poe's Bells and in another quoting somebody but I have not typed that sentence into google to find out who said it (love google). What did people do before google, just think to themselves, "that sounds familiar, wonder who said it?" hahaha google is the Great Equalizer!!

Anyway, I love the way she has of putting us IN Wimsey's mind, and it's exactly the way people DO think, little snatches of this and that song or whatever come on you at the strangest times, and she does that very well.

I also got the feeling in this section that... Wimsey's butler is kind of a Jeeves himself? Is this the first book in the Wimsey series? I kind of get the feeling we should know more about this butler? Now on to the next 100 pages. I must tell you if the mystery has nothing whatsoever to do with bells after all this, I am going to be very disappointed (or laugh a lot at the red herring). hahahaah

ginny

I think that the advertising one was Sayers first mystery, but am not sure. I loved all of the Sayers books, but dont consider this one the best. I did mean Bill that I wanted an audio version, not that I did not.. Mistyping again.. Even someone singing the tones would be nice. I am leaving on Tuesday for a week, so probably will not post again, but have been enjoying this very much. Actually the best discussion would have been on Peter and Harriet,but the individual book is also good.

Hats, I love the old time mysteries best of all, too. I would rather read those than some of the new one. I was an admirer of Stephen King but not so much any more. I believe King should've stopped when he was on top. I read most of King's novels and enjoyed a great many. However, I've been wading my way through his Black House and I just can't get interested in it. Hats, let's wait until Fall for more old time mystery stories. I'm sure I will be doing some.. However, before choosing one I'll make sure it has chapters.

Ginny, very sorry to hear about your computer crash. Did it happen during a storm or what? Yes, I was thinking the same of Wimsey's literateness but that didn't stop the town folks from accepting him. Dorothy L. Sayers knew when, where and how to display Lord Peter's brilliance

In this section the action begins to increase with Bunter playing a large role in it. The final segment of the books is the real action part of the story.

Bill H

Stephanie, I don't think this was her best and maybe the one with Harriet and Peter would have been the prime choice. At least it would've been a much more easy read.

Stephanie, have a good vacation.

bill H

In the chapter called Emily Turns Bunter, two poems are mentioned. Is anyone familiar with the poems?

"Bunter," said his lordship, "what is the verse about the struck eagle stretched upon the plain, Never through something clouds to soar again? It expresses my feelings exactly."

Then, Lord Wimsey gives the title and author of the other poem, The Man Who Never Laughed Again by William Morris.

I would not mind finding all of the words to these poems.

So the struck eagle, stretched upon the plain, 
  No more through rolling clouds to soar again, 
    Viewed his own feather on the fatal dart, 
      And wing'd the shaft that quivered in his heart. 
      - Lord Byron (George Gordon Noel Byron),

As for the other poem, William Morris wrote so many that it would take a while to search it out.

Thanks, Phyll. That was so fast.

With Lord Peter and Bunter traveling to Leamholt, Holport and Walbeach hoping to find the letter from France in one of these town's rural post-offices, Dorothy L. paints a graphic picture of the Fen country. In the big Daimler, Lord Peter and Bunter travel the flatness of the Fens and experience it's solitude. During this journey the author introduces the rivers, bridges and dykes that will soon play an important and exciting role in our novel.

Do you recall what could be a serious felony Bunter commits at the Walbeach pot-office. Perhaps what Bunter obtains at this post-office will explain why Lord Peter pondered so long over the garments of the dead body found in Lady Thorp's grave.

I was trying to find the poem, "The Man Who Never Laughed Again" by William Morris. I found only a mention of it because it was apparently a lesser work compared to all the other poetry that he wrote. Lots and lots of it! Many long poems on the Arthurian legend, among others. But that wasn't all he did!

William Morris (1834-96), the British craftsman, designer, writer, typographer, and Socialist. He is considered the founder of the Arts and Crafts movement. The Morris Chair see example was designed by his partner, Philip Webb, in a furniture company they owned. Morris designed wallpaper, books, stained glass windows, etc., as well as writing many poems and essays. He was a political activist and became a socialist in his later life. One article said that he "died having done the work of ten men". He was a close personal friend of Dante Gabriel Rossetti and shared a lease with him on this house not far from Oxford. Kelmscott Manor And apparently shared his wife with Rossetti, it is said, since she was his mistress while still being married to Morris. And here is the man himself in an early photograph. William Morris.

Of course, this has nothing to do with THE NINE TAILORS except for Wimsey's mention of the poem, but I found it interesting, anyway.

Thank you, Phyll. I am glad you took that long journey. All that you researched is very interesting to me. I figured if Lord Wimsey made mention of Morris than I needed to know him. Thanks again.

Phyll how interesting, I'm taking a course at Oxford in July - August and I think I need to see that, many thanks for putting that here!! That Morris chair comes up in a lot of discussions, thank you for that too!

WELL well well I just KNEW those bells were going to play a part and just LOOK at this section, I'm almost thru and note the stuff on Tailor Paul and Batty and the neato word play ahahahaha but HARK! As the Rector was working out the different number sequences, I suddenly realized we know what these sound like? Have you ever heard a grandfather clock? Some of those fancier ones play all sorts of chimes, named for the churches but if you look at those numbers, you can see it's the same tones just in different order and I could SEE what the Rector was doing, I don't understand the names (apparently if you reverse a sequence that's called something cute just like in square dancing, "promenade home," means do a particular type of movement, I do SEE it now!!

AND the letter is figured out, now I was not really clear how they figured out the letter for the particular number of peal, I do love the diagram but how did they figure out number 5 IS that particular ...can somebody help here?

Also Suzanne again I'm confused, her husband LeGros (Paul the Great?) who is nameless but not that Courtland What has Suzanne's husband got to do with anything? I understand all that about him faking his illness to get out of the war, but WHO is he? I lack a few pages, maybe they will tell.

I am SO glad the bells weren't a red herring, that''s a heck of a load of fish to ignore!

ginny