Orchid Thief ~ Susan Orlean ~ 3/00 ~ True Crime Export

Hello, everybody! Drop in and join us in talking about Susan Orlean's book!

This is a terrific lesson in the dark, dangerous, and often hilarious nature of obsession. Love the sight and history of orchids? Interested in Seminole history? You'll find that and more in this book!

Lorrie

Gather ye Orchids While ye May
(with apologies to Robert Herrick)

Gather ye orchids while ye may
Find out if crime, indeed does pay.

Strange things do happen in Florida, south
But no clues can emanate from my mouth.

Thieves, adventurers and The Seminole
Forge a mystery like a deep Black Hole.

Gather ye orchids while ye may,
Come, join us--the date is May, first day.

Hello, Ed! Love your poem! I'm only a few pages into the book, and love it already!

Anybody ever heard of Florida's Fakahatchee (I love that name)Strand? Well, you'll hear about it and more in this deliciously weird tale of smugglers, spies, and swamp things. Keep tuned in.

Lorrie

Lorrie: Fakawhooie? I live in florida and haven't a clue?

Hi, Alf! What part of Florida do you live in? According to the author, this whole thing took place in the Fakahatchee(don't you love that name?) Strand State Preserve, " a wild swamp near Naples filled with exceptional plants and trees, including some that don't grow anywhere else in the United States, and some that don't grow anywhere else in the world." I think the legal proceedings took place in the Collier County courthouse. Know where that is now?

Lorrie

Lorrie: We live in the SW of Florida, between Ft. Meyers and Sarasota. I've never heard of Facahatchee St. Park. Noone dares to attempt the pronounciation probably.

The only part of Florida I've ever visited was the Keys, and I remember particularly visiting Hemingway's house in Key West and all those cats!!! But from what I can gather, the area in which the action of the book took place is swampy, humid, and apparently ideally suited to grow orchids. I have a feeling it's definitely off the beaten tourist track!

Lorie

My curiosity got the best of me on that unfortunate, uh, spelling. Here's what Yahoo search found----map and all----

http://www.florida-everglades.com/mapfaka.htm

Thank you Betty, for a really good link to the territory we'll be reading about!

Lorrie

Lorrie: STOP, right now. You are making this book sound very appealing and I do not have the TIME to read another one. I get so caught up in these discussions and readings, I forget I am supposed to have another life . (where???) I may be forced to go out and buy this one too.

I found this book at our local library. I believe it's been out a year or two.

Anyway, I became intrigued when I picked up a copy at a local bookstore and read a couple pages. I'll be picking it up at the library and joining you soon!

Naples, Fl is the county seat of Collier County. The county government center is at the junction of Rte US 41 East & Airport Road.

Rte 41 is also known as the Tamiami Trail.. You can take Rte 41 from Tampa to Miami ( Hence: Tamiami) it's about 300 miles & goes through the upper portion of the Everglades.

I've been to Naples many times,it's a great city & one of the fastest growing areas in the U.S. I have plans to go back next winter,so I'll be sure to visit the F.Strand Preserve.

Another fantastic place to visit is Corkscrew Swamp Santuary,it's really wild & well preserved & I was very fortunate one year to observe a huge flock of migratory Wood Storks that were nesting there for part of the winter

Ed. maybe you can smuggle an orchid or two out of there when you visit? Funny thing abour this plant---I've never heard of any other that creates such desire to own! How many people get an obsession with African Violets, for instance? Well, I did, once. My mother-in-law sent me 36 of them and I drowned every one! She wouldn't speak to me for a year.

Jeryn, great! We can read the book together!

Lorrie

An interesting segment last night on 60 Minutes on orchid obsession, or as one interviewee called it, orcha-holism.

I'll have this book shortly, as soon as a cousin finishes it, and I'm excited about joining you in this discussion. I like True Crime books a lot!

Betty: I'm kicking myself all over the place for not taping that 60 minutes thing. I had company at the last minute and missed it, but I would love to have seen that segment about orchids!!

Gail: Great to see you! This is a book worth talking about. I'm only into the first part yet, but I can see there are characters in here that are unforgettable! Yes, True crime stories are great, you never know what to expect, and don't have to worry about a lot of contrived adventures!

Lorrie

I saw the 60 minutes episode,but did not have a chance to tape it.

If anyone is interested in any follow up, there is a book called Orchid Fever by Eric Hansen which has the sub-title of A Horticultural Tale of Love, Lust, and Lunacy.

Earlier this morning, my wife & I went to a nursery that has lots of orchids,several varieties can be grown in the house without too much care. The flowers are beautiful,but the only thing they did for me today was to make me sneeze.

Personally, I never cared for orchids all that much. When I was in high school, if a young man escorting a girl to the Prom didn't give her an orchid corsage, his standing among his peers dropped considerably. I remember one Prom, when a very nice boy asked me to go to the Prom with him and brought me a lowly gardenia, I was ashamed to show it to my friends, little beast that I was. Shows what a warped sense of values we had then. The gardenia was perfectly lovely, and I'm sure it had a much nicer fragrance, but I was chagrined because it wasn't an orchid. Anyway, do orchids have a fragrance, anyway?

Lorrie

I KNOW it I missed it, too and thought immediately about this discussion!!!

Ginny

Lorrie, yeah, I think some of them have a real smell!!

Ginny

EWD: Ok, I live not too far from there. Does this story take place IN Naples?

Alf! You live in Glorida! Great, you'll probably be more interested in this book than us Northerners, for instance!

Read Ed's Post# 12 in previous postings here. He pinpoints the area, and gives exact directions how to get there, if driving. You may be familiar with the whole shmeel. What part of Florida? Didn't you say once you were somewhere near the panhandle? Or was that somebody else?

Lorrie

I don't think the story itself takes place in Naples,but some of the legal aspects do.

The theft of the orchids was in an area south of Naples.

Orchids can grown almost anywhere. A number of years ago (when I was a science teacher) our class spent 5 days in the Jersey Pine Barrens (which has very sandy soil) and we discovered many "lady slipper orchids". I was so surprised to find them growing in that environment .

All right, that's IT, I gotta have the book, have been resisting but can resist no more, gotta have it!

Ginny

Lorrie and ED: Ok, smarties, not only do I live in Forida-- I have 2 orchid tress in my yard. I haven't read the book so I probably should not be bragging on that isssue. We bought a house here in SW Florida between Ft. Meyers and Sarasota (Venice area) last April. What in the bloody H you are supposed to do to propogate orchids is beyond me. Thank you, very much, I don't wish to know. I'm just letting them bloom without any help from my black thumb.

Something keeps nagging at me about this book and I can't put my finger on it. I guess I will have to spring for the read. I am so depressed after the accountant told us we got screwed big time this yr and owe------@#$%#%%$%^**

Excuse my dirty mouth!!

Hey, Alf: What are orchid tresses? Are they the kind you can wear in your hair? Hahaha You feel the way about your orchids as I did about all those African Violets of my MIL that I killed.

Ginny, good to see you in here! Maybe you can give Alf a few tips about raising plants. I'm sure you must have a garden---I know you've got a lot of fertilizer with all those horses? hahaha

Lorrie

There is enough fertilizer on this site to reap what ever it is we sow. 7

Okay, Andrea, that'll be enough! We'd better mind our p's and q's or we'll get drummed out of this Corps, before we even got started!

Lorrie

Yes, dear Lorrie. I shall behave. It is just SUCH an effort for me. I am going to try to get this today at library. I hate to do that because I LOVE to mark in my own book, for reference later.

Did I say tresses? HAha

In Post #26 I meant I killed the African Violets, not my mother-in-law.

Lorrie

Sorry Andrea,cannot help you with the orchid trees.

Point of information: The New York International Orchid Show is being held April 13 to 16 at the World Financila Center. Admission is free. There is a little more info at www.worldfinancialcenter.com If you click on-go to attractions.

Ginny: Look forward to seeing you in the discussion. You will be able to translate all the Latin botanical names for us. ( Get out your Linneaus)

Well, I'm an orchaholic and I've read The Orchid Thief and watched the 60 Minutes segment on orchids, so lets talk. You might be interested to know that there is another program on the Obsession of Orchids on PBS this next Sunday May 16, watch for it.

Sherlock

Sorry, that should read April 16 as you probably guessed

Sherlock

Well , HI, Sherlock, and welcome!! I know Ed and Lorrie will be so glad to see you here and we hope to hear a lot of your input. I missed the 60 Minutes show so will watch this one on the 16th, thanks for that!! Does your sobriquet indicate an interest in mystery or Arthur Conan Doyle?

Ed, you know perfectly well you can translate them as well as I can, maybe better!! hahahahaha

My book is in the mail and I'm looking forward to it, this looks like a great group assembling!

Ginny

Hi there, Sherlock: Great to hear from you. Be sure to stick around for when we start talking about this book in earnest. We will need your opinions on it. Like Ginny, I missed the 60 minutes thing, but I'll be sure to check the TV schedule for this coming Sunday, thank you.

Lorrie

p.s. Is there one particular species of orchid you like?

Hi Lorrie, I guess I appreciate nearly all of the orchids, but I'm a Cattleya man at heart, with the Phalaenopsis a close second, and my collection consists mostly of those two groups, with a representational few of many other intermediate and warm varities.

As for the 60 Minutes segment on orchids,I thought it was good for the shortness of the presentation. It emphasized the obsession for orchids that is very much a reality and displayed some wonderful photos of orchids that show you why they are so desirable. And yes, for the person who asked, many orchids are fragrant, with aromas of sweetness, citrus, chocolate, vanilla, coconut, spices and others. I'm looking forward to the PBS special because it too will cover the obsession aspect and is an hour long, so should be able to better develope the story.

Sherlock

Sherlock, I'm really not trying to be nosy, but can you tell us what part of the country in which you live? How does your climate affect your zest for growing orchids? Do you have a greenhouse? I'm really interested. Can you tell us a little bit about how you became an "orchidholic," and when it became an obsission?

Lorie

Lorrie, I live in north central Idaho, in a beautiful cedar home high on a ridge overlooking the Clearwater River. But, I started growing orchids when I lived in So. Calif. I was growing orchids outside and on the windowsill, which limits the kinds of orchids you can successfully grow, so managed to keep the new hobby under control and later moved to the State of Wash with a handfull of orchids. Again I was growing in the house and with very poor light exposure, so growing was limited and I managed to kill a few orchids and replaced a few. Then we moved to Idaho where the growing conditions were much better and my orchids were thriving. Encouraged, I added a greenhouse and expanded the orchid collection, which led to joining three orchid societies, attending a couple of orchid shows a year and haunting orchid dealers everytime I got to big cities. I also shopped extensively for orchids by mail order. My collection has grown to more than 80 orchids, which is still small in comparison to true orchid nuts, who have several hundred and thousands. Although nearly max'd out for space in the greenhouse, I have found there is always room for one more orchid (isn't that called obsession). Then a year ago I got my computer and started surfing the orchid websites and forums and clubs and now spend way too much time daily talking with people about orchids all around the world (isn't that obsession).

Well, thats how it happened and I am probably stuck with them for life. They do require quite a bit of upkeep, but the pleasure of their incredible shapes, colors, fragrance and beauty keeps me entertained and in awe of nature's imagination.

Sherlock

Sherlock: What a lovely hobby! If I ever get to Idaho I will certainly try to find where you are... Orchids for me are the ultimate in flowers..

In NZ we visited the Raymond Burr Orchid Farm and it wasso beutiful

Sherlock: What a vivid picture you paint of the area where you are growing your beloved orchids. Your description of how you became so mesmerized gives the true meaning of "obsession," if you want to call it that. Personally, I think "enthusiasm" is a better word. Oh, Sherlock, you must stay with us when we begin discussing this book. I am sure we'll need your help in explaining some of the botanical terms, and as a true orchid fancier, you can probably understand what motivated this unusual man, the Thief.

Lorrie

Sherlock: I enjoyed your orchid narration. The "obsession" of collecting weaves throughout the book,hopefully,it's something we can all discuss.

Sherlock, here's an ignorant question, do they bloom all the time? I see them at Home Depot a good bit and wonder if they keep UP that bloom or are there some which take over when....I guess I'm asking if you have them all year round in bloom?

I have a greenhouse, but it gets boiling hot here in the summer in SC, but I have seen them in the Carribean, growing wild in the trees and certainly it is hot there. Yet I have heard they are cool weather plants, what is the skinny there? Do you keep them in the greenhouse all summer?

Ginny

Not an ignorant question at all Ginny. Most orchid flowers will last from one month to three months, but some varieties will continue to grow more than one flower spike and some spikes will continue to grow more flower buds on the tip of the spike after the first series of flowers are gone. So, the effect is that many mature plants can flower year around. Most growers will cut the spikes back at some point so the plant has a chance to rest and get its strength back.

Also, different varieties bloom at different times of the year and some bloom more than once a year, again creating the appearance of blooming all year. I have over 80+ plants and at any one time there are always 3 or 4 plants in bloom.

The intermediate and warm orchids prefer a temperature range of 60 to 80 degrees and can stand brief temps of at least another 5 degrees either way without problems. There are cool varieties that can handle brief temps down to freezing and some warm varieties that can tolerate the 90's. I do keep all of my orchids in the greenhouse year around, except Cymbidiums, which I put outside from early summer to October. I also bring blooming plants into the house for decoration for brief periods.

Here are some websites that will demonstrate the beauty of the orchid world:

http://www.orchidworks.com

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Forest/8586/Misc/others/htm

http://www.notsogreenthumb.org

Check out this website to hear the "obsessed" in action:

http://www.orchidweb.org (click on Orchid Forum Discussion)

I'll bet I convert at least one of you!!!!

Sherlock

Sherlock, I watched that program you recommended on Public TV last night, and it was very good. Stunning photography, and I was mesmerized by the action between the insects and the orchids, particularly those "bucket" orchids with their sort-of pails to catch the hapless bees in and trap their pollen. Fascinating!

Lorrie

Have any of you clicked on the links that Sherlock posted for us just above? Don't miss the orchidweb.com one! It has a photo gallery with some of the most amazing pictures that you can enlarge immediately to show each flower in detail! I think We should post that link up in our heading--I'll see about that. Great sites, Sherlock!

Lorrie

Oh GOLLY there's so much here to see and do! I'm taking THE ORCHID THIEF with me to Rome Monday, please don't rush thru it!! I'll rejoin you after Mother's Day. Isn't this fascinating, tho? Who KNEW all this was out there, thank you SO much Sherlock, that's just unreal!

I want to look at all those sites when I get back and have more time.

I am totally in tune with strange obsessions in the plant world tho and find it fascinating to hear that others have taken their interests and developed their knowledge to such a high pitch.

You can't help admiring knowledge and some people just have it in bucket loads.

I myself am intersted in Arisaema, or more commonly known as Jack in the Pulpit, a woodland flower with many strange and fascinating incarnations.

Wayside Gardens carries several strange varieties.

Now for me my interest in them had a personal beginning and I wonder if most afficianadoes have the same background?

What IS is about some species of plants which makes us interested???

The BOOK is just CRAMMED with rave reviews, and I look forward to reading it while traveling!

Ginny

Hey, Ginny! You're in for a treat to have Orchid Thief to read on your trip! We'll be here when you come back, hopefully going strong, and will look forward to your comments! You have a safe and happy trip, hear?

Lorrie

I have been told that the Lady's Slipper is actually an orchid. I remember seeing it when I was a child and lived in Massachusetts.

Louise: On that Sunday evening Tv show about orchids, they showed "Lady Slippers" and they actually do look exactly like a woman's slipper. This was a segment about orchids, so I assume they must be orchids, yes!

Lorrie

In case you may doubt that the legion of orchid lovers is huge, click on to the open Forum discussion in The Orchid Society's Site, if you're up to scrolling down that list on discoursers. Wow! and here's an interesting comment about this book" "Orlean's hilariously reported, discursive narrative wanders off into Seminole history, real-estate fraud, stolen flora, and the scary, swampy Fakahatchee Strand. Just when you fear you're lost in the Everglades, she returns to the flower at hand, and unleashes some delirious prose....Orlean shows great restraint and never adopts an orchid--readers may not manage to be so cold-blooded." --Alexandra Lange, New York Magazine

Lorrie

Lorrie, of course you know that the state flower for MN is the Lady Slipper, commonly know as Jack in the Pulpit. Everglades? I was just there last month.

Petite One: No, i didn't know that, but what a pleasant thought! When I was in the Everglades, the one and only time, I found it to be almost unbearable from the mosquitoes and other obnoxious things that either crawled or flew.

Lorrie

Lady's Slipper and Jack-in-the-Pulpit are two quite different plants here in Ohio! Got a wildflower reference book handy?

From the Tampa Tribune dated today:

Orchids will be in bloom Friday thru April 30 during the National Orchid Show at Belleview Resort and Spa in Clearwater.

The show sponsored by the Tamba Bay Orchid Society, the Fla West Coast Orchid Society and Tampa Orchid Club, will feature a variety of lectures from national and international experts. Orchids and related items will be available for sale. Admission in 2 bucks while the charge for a single lecture is 3 bucks. If anyone is interested call:

813-968-3402

That's what I love best about SN. No sooner does a discussion begin then UP POPS some pertinent info. re our chats. My book has to come from a local library in our county-- soooo I am patiently (huh?) awaiting a call to pick it up. I have 2 orchid trees in my extra lot and freaked out when we first bought the house. I didn't have a clue how to encourage their blooming. Leaving them alone to do as nature thinks best has been best-- for the orchids.

Alf: Now that's really interesting! How lucky you are to live in a climate where you can find orchids growing wild. By letting Nature take its course it looks like you did the right thing, if those lovely flowers are surviving. It's what I would have done, I think. With my black thumb and penchant for killing plants I think I would have just done nothing!

Lorrie

Amen! That is exactly why I chose to let them go on their merry way, Lorrie. I didn't know what in the world to DO with them or for them.

Could someone here just give us a hint as to the premise of this book? does it have to do with smuggling? I reread the posts and can't find the whos, what, whys, etc.

Alf if you go to Barnes and Noble site and type in The Orchid Thief it tells you about the book. There is even an option of reading a chapter if you would like. I was just there but didn't take time to read it, looked interesting though.

Judy

Alf, apparently this "thief" is quite a character. His is a true obsession with orchids, which,as we're beginning to discover, affects so many people, and Susan Orlean, a New York writer, became so intrigued with the story of his arrest and what led up to it. Without giving away anything of the story I can say that in writing about this complex man, the author herself developed a strong interest in this plant. You'll love the book, I'm sue!

Lorrie

Oh so sorry, I thought you were Lorrie, not Sue.

Judy: what kind of dummie am I ? I knew that!! I will access B & N today to get a picture of what this Orchid Thief 'tis all about.

Alf: Okay, I see we've got a smart-alec here! Just for that I'm going to send you into the Everglades one day without any bug spray, and with some spoiled meat. The kind that attracts alligators.

Lorrie (sue)

Hi folks, thought you might like to see the orchid that gets the Orchid Thief into so much trouble. Its commonly called the "Ghost Orchid" and you can see it at www.orchidflask.com Just click on the orchid in the left upper corner on the site, thats it.

Sherlock

Hi, there, Sherlock! What a stunning plant that is! I can see why it is called "The Ghost Orchid," it looks exactly like a ghost. Incidentally, there's a really sharp picture of the author of this book on that same site. To me she looks so young, but then these days everybody looks so young to me!

Sherlock, are the ghost orchids quite rare? Are thy hard to propagate? What makes them so special, as compared with other orchids? I imagine we'll probably read more about them when we get into the book---I haven't finished it yet.

Lorrie

Darn. I am still await mine. I think instead of it being located in the alternate library of this county, the pilgrims have taken it to Canterbury with them.

When Lorrie (Sue) sends me into the Everglades with the 'gators, I hope to have a good read.

Okay, Andrea, you're forgiven!

Sherlock, there's one thing I don't understand. I believe orchids are under the flora and fauna (?) protected species thing, making it illegal to remove them from their natural habitat? Is this correct? Well, then why do they have such a stupid law when rain forests and places where orchids flourish are being destroyed more each day? Wouldn't it make sense to enable growers to transplant all these exotic plants from wherever they find them? Or are there too many flaws in that argument?

Lorrie

What a wonderful idea. Get permission to go in and get as many of the plants as possible just ahead of the saws and bulldozers. I would rather stop the sawyers but orchids and many other medicinal plants and spice and herbs should be saved. I read a artical somehere maybe in Discovery about the millions of plants and insects not yet classified in the rain forests of the world. Faith

I just read that there are between 15 -25,000 different species of Orchids. Is that possible? The pedals rotate so that the mature flower is born upside down? Why is that? It also said that as many as 2 million seeds are produced by its seedpod. How come I don't have more flowers than I do? They are pollinated by bees, birds, butterflies, etc. Is all of this related in the book? I don't want to "junk" up this site if it has already been discussed. I better check out the jacket blurb from B & N. I'll have to look up ghost orchid.

FaithP: Yes, and think of the wonderful potentially helpful medicinal plants that scientists have been researching for years in those unprotected locations.

Andrea: you're just fine. We haven't even begun to discuss all these different aspects of orchid growing, and the subject of the "ghost orchid" hasn't really been covered. I'm waiting to hear more from Sherlock, who posted earlier, and who is an avid orchid grower, and really knows his stuff. But hark! the O-Day is approaching fast!

Lorrie

I actually have never seen "Ghost Orchids" other than in photographs, but much has been written and discussed on the orchid forums as a result of The Orchid Thief book. The flower is interesting, but the plant is actually not very pretty at all. It is unusual in that it has no leaves, just a system of roots that sprawl all over trees and then send up stems with flowers. The book will decribed the problems collecting them and their propagation, but I have yet to encounter anyone who even considered them "special" or unusually appealling.

You are right about the laws protecting orchids possibly working against them in view of the destruction of the rainforest and you will find this and orchid conservation discussed at great length in the book. Probably the highlight of the book is the description of the whole history of orchid collecting in Florida and around the world and the obsession that has resulted. I think you will find it fascinating and probably more interesting than the orchid thief's misadventures and the author's attempts to understand the obsession and to find the "Ghost Orchid".

Sherlock

I have a comment about Lady Slippers and Jack in the Pulpits. I do not think anyone knows this outside of Northern California but we have another plant in a northern county around where my Mother was born in the 1890s that is considered a true orchid and it is called Jack in the Pulpit but is not the familiar plant. It is very rare up there and when it was found propagating itself on a certain type of bush root the newspaper refused to publish the area or the type of bush or anything else for fear the public would destroy it. It is still known as " the secret orchid" and the only reason I know its common name is my mother told me about it long ago. Faith

Faith P: What an interesting thought, Faith! You have your own little orchid secret. Why does the name "Jack in the Pulpit" strike a dim memory in me? Very vaguely I can remember my grandmother, who had a magnificent garden, talking about it, and even pointing one out, I think. Same flower? Probably not. The name struck me, at the time, just as I remember Grandma telling us little ones about her "four o'clocks," that I've never heard of since. I think she told us that they opened their petals every day at 4, or is that all in my imagination?

Lorrie

Jack N the Pulpit Jack-In-The-Pulpit, also called Indian turnip, a plant of the arum family, native to eastern North America. The life cycle of the plant begins in the spring, when the turnip-shaped underground stem, or corm, sends up several leaves, which are divided into three pointed leaflets. Tiny flowers grow in a cluster on an erect club-shaped structure, called the spadix, at the top of a simple flower stalk, or scape. The spadix (also called the jack) is surrounded by a spathe, a large leaflike structure that is green and usually striped with purple, which arches above the jack like the canopy of a pulpit. A cluster of scarlet berries appears on the jack-in-the-pulpit in autumn. The Native Americans boiled and consumed the fruit and the starchy, acrid corm of the plant.

"Jack-In-The-Pulpit," Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 2000. © 1993-1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

An American painter of the Hudson River School, Martin Johnson Heade,traveled to Brazil in 1863 and 1867 and became interested in exotic orchids of the tropical rainforest. A typical example is his painting Study of An Orchid (1872) which is in the collection of the New York Historical Society.

At the Paris Exposition of 1889 the American firm of Charles Lewis Tiffany presented a group of 25 spectacular orchid brooches.They were naturalistically colored with painted enamel in brilliant tropical colors: yellow,pink,and in particular,magenta and mauve,and highlighted with diamonds.

Rene Lalique produced memorable belt buckles incorporating the orchid in the 1890's.

Lalique did a great series of orchid tiaras in 1903-1904. Some of the material he used was gold,enamel,carved horn,ivory and,of course,diamonds.

On occasion,some of Lalique's jewelery (including the orchids)are displayed in museums....especially New York City, Washington DC & Baltimore.

ALF! That's him! That's MY Jack-in-the-Pulpit! I had them growing in my yard in Lexington [Ohio] which we moved away from last year.

And Lorrie, my mother-in-law grew four o-clocks. They did not open on cloudy days but I think the 4:00 mystique may be exaggerated!

Do orchids grow only in the tropics or sub-tropics?

I'm just experiencing the greatest fantasy: Wouldn't it be awesome to be able to visit somewhere and see both the collections of Lalique's and Tiffany's orchid jewelry together in all their sparkling splendor? What a sight that would be, so many orchid jewels! We're getting some really interesting notes on orchids here.

Lorrie

Jeryn, Orchids grow nearly everywhere in the world, in swamps and deserts, in deeply shaded woodlands, in the broad burning sun of a lava flow site, from seal level to 14,000 feet, even as far north as the Arctic Circle. But the vast majority and greatest diversity can be found on the sides of trees in tropical forests, particularly of the South American Andes and Himalayan Mountains. This information has been quoted from Taylor's Guide to Orchids.

Sherlock

Thanks Sherlock! Too bad they won't grow in Midwestern backyards! We'd ALL be orchid fanciers!

Watch it, Jeryn! Sherlock here says he's going to make orchid-obsessed fanciers out of us all yet! He may have a point---it would be easy to get hooked.

Lorrie

We will eventually be able to see this wonderful story on film. The rights were optioned by Jonathan Demme, and from what I understand, the script is finished and they are very excited about it. Susan Orlean would like to see Michelle Pfeiffer play her role.

Lorrie

Last weekend I posted re. a National Orchid show in Clearwater. This week they had a picture of a Paph. flame Arrow X Red Glory orchid and an article that says :I am paraphrasing this "People filled the Biltmore Resort as they told of their OBSESSION with orchids. A past president of an orchid society says "people who choose orchids tend to be people who like a challenge. It is a hard plant to master. If you think you know everything about them you DON"T!" Orchid growers know this and have a quest for knowledge. The more you learn about orchids, the more you want to know. " The various flowers were discussed in the article & it said "the orchid wasn't always worshipped by the masses." In the late 1800s it was truly a RARE plant because noone knew how to propogate orchids from seeds or cuttings. One man said "If you had the biggest collection in the world, it would NOT be enough! It is like wine," he said "the connoisseur is always looking for the perfect orchid- a better one." He finished the stroy by saying this: "I will tell you about the orchid. It is like a lady, so you must treat the orchid like a lady. Be very kind to them and give them enough SUN."

That cracked me up. Good thing he grows orchids and isn't married.

Alf: "Be kind to them and give them enough sun, indeed!" That cracked me up too. Alf, I'm impressed with all the homework you've been doing here. Goof for you!

Is everybody ready to start talking about this book on Monday? I am. Let's hear from all you readers of books on true crime stories!

Lorrie

I purchased the book today at Borders. They had a big 30% off sale and so I bought the Red Tent also for June. I am on page seven and I was dumfounded by the description of the "hero" so I thought this can not be non=fiction...gosh on turning back to the blurbs on the flypage it is ..And evidently a story written for the New Yorker first. then Ms. Orleans was encouraged to do the book version. It starts fast enough to please most and gets you immediatly involed. I can not wait till I find what this judge will do This book has a rythem to the writting that is very pleasing and easy reading. so I athink we are all off on an adventure . Faith

Helllooo, Faith P. So glad you were able to get a discounted copy of this book. It looks to be a good read, doesn't it?

To start the ball rolling, I have a few questions I'd like to throw at some of you readers:

1.Is there a hero in the Orchid Thief? An anti-hero?

2. Is the book subjective? Objective? Or a different genre altogether? Some people describe this as “literary non-fiction.” Is this how you would characterize it?

Lorrie

Hello to All:

I don't know if Laroche is a hero or not. I don't even know if I like him or if I met him would I keep my hand on my wallet.

However, I do think that he is honest in that he is very focused on what he wants to accomplish and does not try to cloak his motives in the garb of altruism. He wants to make money and feels that by poaching orchids he is saving them and ,by the way,can make a million dollars.

I find his obsessional characteristics to be of great interest. Does anyone think his obsession with collecting (whatever interests him at the moment) is pathological? Has anyone out there ever met a truly obsessional collector?

To me, literary non-fiction sounds like a paradox. I can remember when "In Cold Blood" was published, Truman Capote called it something like fictional non-fiction.(?)

Well, the Orchid Thief is non-fiction with a heavy dose of botany,history and psychology thrown into the mix. Actually, I found it very interesting and absorbing and am looking forward to much discussion.

As I am only just now going into the swamp for the first time I have few opinions about the "story". I keep getting caught up in Ms ORleans language. I get enthralled with a paragraph and read it over like it might be poetry. A question about obsession , I have not met up with a collector as willing to change from one to another as Laroche.of the skinny lap The lanquage so far is where I am. Is this book about a true crime or not? It reads like a elaborate fiction novel as if Laroche lives by creation of the ?Author for who could be as honest about his dishonesty as this one. Faith

For sure, Ms. Orlean can write. I have finished the book and had to return it to the library but will post some thoughts while they are fairly fresh in my mind. I was most fascinated by the aspect of Ms. Orlean sort of camping in Florida for a rather lengthy period of time [months? I don't remember] to follow this Laroche character around! I'm not sure I would have [a]wanted to be seen with him or [b]trusted him to chauffeur me hither and yon as she did!

Since I am still in the first chapters of the book I am still learning about the reproduction of Orchids and I must say I am glad I was somewhat of a good biology student. I am fascinated by the "lust for orchids" so many people exhibit (according to author.) Whole book is fascinating me. Must read more tonight after dinner which is pretty soon. Friends are bring dinner over. Hurray Faith

No, Ed, I cannot say that I have ever met any collector with even half the fervor shown by many of the orchid fanciers in Orlean's book. To be perfectly honest, it's still difficult for me to grasp the idea of being obsessed to the point of normalcy over what is, after all, simply a plant. A lovely plant, when in bloom, of course, but still merely a plant. I'm sure this will raise hackles on a true collector's neck, but it's the honest way I feel.

Lorrie

I'm finding the character of John Laroche quite ambiguous. On the one hand, he's obviously an amoral, avaricious collector of anything that he thinks will further his schemes, and yet I still have this picture of him and his then wife, after Hurricane Andrew, going from fallen tree to tree, rescuing the orchid plants and glueing them to live trees in order to save them.

Contrasts!

Lorrie

Hello:

I was intrigued by the fact that the Parliament tax on glass was so high,that it was not until the tax was repealed that greenhouse construction flourished.

As an aside to the above paragraph, I recommend a film called Oscar and Lucinda (available on tape) that is set in Victorian England and revolves around a compulsive gambler who wants to build a church made of glass. It's an outstanding film starring Ray Fiennes.

If Ray Fiennes is in it, that's for me. I've had a soft spot in my heart for him ever since "The English Patient."

Lorrie

Susan Orlean paints the state of Florida as the ultimate America, land of plenty, yet one gets the strong sense that she finds its profuseness more than just a little vulgar. Does nyone else get that feeling?

Lorrie

I was thinking of the language she (orleans) uses creating a setting of not just lush but lustful America...and perhaps Florida brought out a feeling of lust in her . She said she couldnt understand "lusting" for a collectible. Could she be repressing sexual feelings. do I go to far. Faith

Faith P. No, I think there's a strong hint of sexuality in this whole theme. The propogation of orchids alone has that tone, and the description of how some of the plants are pollinated is quite graphic in a way. Many orchid hunters agree that the obsession with this particular plant is indeed "lustful."

Lorrie

John Laroche would not describe himself as an orchid person. To him the orchid is a temporary tho albeit intense passion, a means to an end, not the end in itself.
How would you analyze the difference between Laroche’s motives in collecting orchids and the regular orchid collectors mentioned in the book?

Lorrie

Hey there Lorrie, Faith, et al: I had to grovel and beg at the library, but it hastened my receiving this book finally. I started in last night, after returning from the Island (here in SW Florida) and not far from Naples. Only 2 chapters into it and I am tripping over my tongue to relate a few points.

Faith hit the nail on the head with the "poetry" of the read. The first page was wonderful ! Our author says Larouche has the posture of al dente spaghetti. I loved that! How much more descriptive can you get? The parking attendant smelled like daiquiris. I did not know (and I am a golfer) that there are more golf courses/person in Naples than anywhere in the world. That is hard to believe as I lived in Myrtle Beach for a few years and I thought that place sewed up the title for that statistic.

Many folks have mixed emotions re. Florida. Yes, she says it is seductive! This is the best: "It can look brand new and man-made- the last of the American frontier; always in flux." Unless you've lived here it is hard to believe. I live on a partially- developed street (?) we share with 2 other home owners. I walk daily and it is not uncommon to see a family of bob-cats, panthers, and foxes roaming about foraging for food. We are stealing their habitats! People wonder how to get rid of them and I am certain they must be wondering the same about us. I know the other side to that argument is justified with the magic word "progress" but it doesn't make me any more comfortable about "modernizing" the spots where they forage for food. Daily-- more and more trees, bushes, palms, shrubs are thrashed, all for the sake of progress! Orleans says that "everything is always changing or washing away." Oh boy, if she only knew how many times I've thought the same thought. Have any of you ever heard of these sink holes we have here? I've often thought," It is only the land reclaiming itself." She does an excellant job of describing the fomenting changes, the flux-she calls it always flowing, change regared as an abstract influence - if you will.

Laroche sounds a bit schizy to me: Obsessive, amoral, perhaps more neurotic than most we would like to call "friend."

Alf are you finding it hard to just read fast as a "mystery novel" like I am . I have had this book for four days. Now I hate to tell you but I can read a CAT WHO in a few hrs/. and do my other stuff too. I can read a John Grisham in 3 days evenings i sould say. But I am still tramping through the swamp with Orlean and Larouch is telling me I should have gone with him. I t is a beautiful read. I am going to strart reading for the story an dnot line for line for the way it is written. Then I can get a handle aon the characters. Ill be back Lorrie , Alf, all, Faith

South Florida has been an area that has provided much grist for the mill of fiction writers. I've read a lot of mystery/thriller/detective stories that take place in South Florida.

I've been to book signings and lectures by various writers,who live in Florida,and the one's I've heard speak always talk about the "nuttiness" of some of the people who come to live in Florida.

I have been to Florida many times & enjoy the natural beauty of the state and also the "grit" of some of the cities. One thing that has always amazed me driving about Florida is the profusion of pawn shops and go-go bars.

For some authors who write novels about Florida....Carl Hiaasen, Edna Buchanan, Randy Wayne White, and James W. Hall...all of their works are great reads.

Any obsessional collectors out there??

Oh, Andrea, it's so good to see your name here! You mention "sink holes" and that's something the author learned to deal with on her swampy vogages into the Fakahatchee Strand. And as for panthers, your remark"people are wondering how to get rid of them and I'm certain they're wondering the same about us." Very funny. One of Orlean's little vignettes about the Seminole Chief who went on trial for killing a panther was quite humorous.

Faith P. We're looking forward to your comments when you've absorbed some moe of the story. For instance, didn't it strike you as odd that she spent so much time down there on what was originally intended to be a magazine article?

Lorrie

Yes,Lorrie and I have this feeling she fell in to a little lust herself, whether for Florida and the swamps or the orchids or was it perhaps Larouche.? Keep reading me dear...She is thourough isnt she re: case of discrimination toward women on page 75 Victorian women were forbidden from owning orchids because the shapes of the flowere were considered too sexually suggestive for their shy constitution etc etc in 1912 suffragettes destroyed most of the specimens at Kew Garden(.LOVE those sufferagettes) I really got involved in the architecture of that greenhouse. WOW this is a book with some thing for everyone to latch onto Faith

I had a second husband(Buck Rogers) who spent some vacations in florida before I met him and he loved it and wanted to go back. He really wanted to retire there but didnt live till retirement age. He went on a trip thru the Okifinokee (is that right) with guides in one of those funny boats. He had lots of pictures I sent to his son when he passed away. He also saw lots of Painters I could not get what he meant at first then he told me his guide called the panthers "painters.? Faith

Faith P: Yes, I have a feeling that, irregardless of her denials, Susan Orlean saw more in LaRoche than she wrote about. Our bonnets off to thow sugragettes! I've always wanted to hop a ride in one of those "funny boats!" Do they call them air boats? With what looks like a huge fan on the stern? I hadn't known the Florida panthers ("painters") were an endangered species until I read it here. Some of the things the public has done to our habitat and fauna are despicable.

Lorrie

Lorrie yes that is it Airboats with that big wheel thing in the back. I went to the party where the people seem to be suffocating themselves with orchids. And the show where orleans has to pay the tickets of course. That larouche has a dangerous sense of humor or wicked, but through the things he says I am beginning to see that the collectors are not all just practicing oneupmanship. They genuinely are full of lust to own these things.And for some reason I dont like them very much as described in the book. I have been wondering why.> rotting jungles> fetid swamps> pale pea green with dark red spots like blood drops > insects buzzing.> Moths making Laroche scream like a little girl...What evockative writing I need a spell checker Nite Faith

Good grief! I had absolutely NO idea that orchids were so numerous- some 40,000 varieties! I enjoyed the question- which evolved 1st? The insects or the orchids? Interesting thought that even Darwin pondered as he experimented with them. SO says the orchid is cleaver and un-plantlike re. their determination to survive. They have NO natural enemy, she says, except the weather. Does any body else marvel at that fact? Perhaps Darwin with his Origin of the Species mind set found that as unbelievable as I do.

They are considered the most highly evolved flowereing plants on earth.

Another fact I thought was interesting, is that some have color combinations "you wouldn't get caught dead wearing" ,Orleans says. They look like the result of an accidnt involving paint. There is no such thing as a black orchid!!!!!!!!!!! Only in Brenda Starr. Have I been living in a bubble?

Quite "penile." probiscus, Orchidis, big ones, microscopic ones, bulging tuber-shaped growths."The manifold shape of them arouses our highest admiration." They take on forms of lizards of insects. Hahahaha

It is no wonder that they implied mastery of the wilderness and of alien places; the franchise of the reined, upper class.

Alf or little faces into which orleans stares and stares until laroche has to elbow her to get her attention He seems to do a lot of gyrations to get her attention and as a dirty minded old lady I keep wondering about the tension developing . In my mind"t The biology of those plants is fascinating but I wondered at the 'most highly evolved plant' description when it seems to me primitive as are bromiliads. Like most plants discard all those really many species and settle down on a few highly successful ones. The ecology of the swamps is fascinating. All the imported plants and trees and poison frogs taking up space and survivingand taking over. . Last night before I went to bed, I was reading page 109 about the obsession and I wrote in the margine "Obssession narrows World of infinite choices down to a manageable slice of the pie to concentrate on and you could generalize this to obsession of any kind not just Orchid collection fanatics." Faith

Alf I just read your post over. The fantasy of the reined upper classes. Hmm. Repressed sexuality. Women not allowed to own grow hunt or otherwise become involed with this plant. The name of which is also the name of part of the reproductive apparatus of the male . Orchids. Alf, what is the medical term, I could go look it up I guess. Maybe that lush and lovely writting of Orleans and the whole "fantasy" around the Orchid business is creating that Tension I mentioned and I thought it was about the author and her male subject Maybe it is the whole subject...Faith

Orchidis- male testicles. Hmmmm- Faith, maybe you're right, there might be some sexuality surounding the whole bloody story. Yuk! I cant see Orleans going gaa-gaa over a toothless, sociopathic entrepenauer (sp?) can you? Strange that you mention pg. 109 Faith, I had noted the depth of a sentence on that pg. "The reason it matters to care passionately about something is that it whittles the world down to a more manageable size."

My problem is that I care passionately for everything!!! If you can't show and feel passion- why bother?

Ladies, Ladies, Control your libidos here, please! haha

You mention about Orlean being a good writer. She certainly is. On page 232 she gives a description and thunb-nail sketch of one of the most colorful characters in the book, Chief James Billie. This guy is about as far out as you can imagine, and what an entrepeneur! Her discription of this Seminole chief is about as far from our conception of "the noble Indian" as you can get. And the account of the trial of Chief Billie for shooting a panther was hilarious! Good writing!

Lorrie

Alf back to page 109 that is the exact sentence that I was talking about where Obsession whittles the world down to a managable slice of the pie. Lorrie I will get off the MacIntosh and into my easy chair afterdinner tonight and get to Blue. Alf I must say you exhibit understanding of my point don't you feel all that tension. Or am I to involved . See I can almost smell that place when I am involved with the reading. When I read I am concentrating so that people need to jab me to get my attention. I cant hear them and it made my kids mad when they were prepubecent and they would yell at me and finally jog me to make me listen. Faith

The "la-la land" syndrome, while reading is the only way to go! OK, Lorrie, we will behave.

Don't give it away Lorie, I have not yet met Chief Warhoop, or what ever the heck his name is. I have, however, met the bloody, damned Brazilian Pepper tree Orleans mentions. It WAS (I stress the past tense) in my backyard when we purchased the house a yr. ago. It must have grown 8 ft. in the first 8 months and finally we had to PAY to have it removed from the premises. Now, Orleans knows something we didn't --You can't get rid of the damned things. They continue to spring up all around. The more drastic you are in removing them the quicker they grow.

No joke. So for a mere 385 bucks we got rid of the greatest part of it. My husband has been on a private crusade to spray poison of anything that resembles the braz. pepper tree. Including me. They were brought here yrs. ago to help contain the soil, NOW it's illegal to plant them and the state (or) county will remove them on UNCLAIMED land only. I told them I would unclaim my extra lot it sat upon for a few days if they'd get rid of it for me. Needless to say, they refused.

That pepper tree sounds horrible but so did the malilucas and the poison toads. I can just see those things because once there was a documentary on the Animal Channel and it included a segment on the take over in florida swamps by these toads that can kill a cat. Faith

Well, Alf, and Faith P, I can tell neither of you works for the Florida Bureau of Tourism. I know one thing. I did spend one brief vacation once on the Florida Keys, and became a little familiar with the "laid-back" attitude there, something I felt in Orleans' characterizations of the true Floridians. But after reading about the humidity, sink holes, everything that crawls, the malignant trees you can't kill, plus the threat of alligators and poisonous snakes, I do believe I'd just as soon stay away from the Fakahatchee Strand. That orchid obsession must be powerful to draw someone into that kind of mess!

Lorrie

I have met the two giants and I could be afraid hiking with them and their machetes. She mets all these crazies so she says Laroche is an oddball among all these ---and now I am getting a handle on Tom who won a Lottery to become a millionaire. Is this book non fiction. How does Orleans rate that she gets to live a life like this. Well, I would never have been brave enough to stick my tennis shoe clad foot into a black sinkhole, believe me.So she is becoming passionate about the orchids too. Hiking all that miserable way to see roots and vines. Well Onward I go to see what the relationship with Tom will bring. Faith

Oh Lorrie, stop now! I expect you for lunch, one of these days. There are STILL many beautiful, pristine and quaint areas in Fla. Unfortunately , folks like me (snow birds) decided that we had enough of the snow and sleet and wished to enjoy the beauty of the warmth yr. round. ergo-- advancement of commerce, construction, developments-- spelled "PROGRESS". That, Lorrie is what happens to the "inhospitable " areas you are talking about.

Hey, where's all of our orchid fanciers who can testify to this ailment ? I have pods on my orchid tree now. The book says it'll take 8 months to germinate. Does that mean I should keep them there and let nature take its course or open them? I am dying to pick one of the flowering ones . Orleans says " The center of the plant is "absorbing." It's mesmerizing to think about it. If I pick one and disappear only you, senior netters will know what has become of me. I keep thinking about the "mastery of the wilderness"-- my yard is a wilderness, honestly, it is. It's an extra lot with all kinds of flora. I also have bromeliads, which seemed quite benign, UNTIL Orleans quote, the "bromeliads looked like a crowd of animals watching everything that passed their way." Thanks a lot, Ms. Orleans sure makes me feel better staring them in the face from my lanai.

Hey, a couple of days ago I read there were more than 40,000 species and last night, I read 60,000. Which is it? I surely don't know.

Someone asked if we knew of anyone who had a similar obsession with collecting. My husband did. He was the greatest rat-packer i've ever seen, bar none. No piece of junk ever missed his eagle eye, and when they asked him to be the overseer of the local sanitary fill in the small town in Wisconsin where we lived, he was in seventh heaven! Thr trouble was, he brought all his "goodies" home, and you can imagine what our back yard looked like. One day, when the state inspectors and county supervisors were touring several dumping sites, they remarked on what a truly "tidy" dump we had in our area. "Why not," I replied. "All the junk is out in my back yard!" Yes, my husband was a really avid "collector!"

Lorrie

Lorrie always remember: One mans garbage is another mans treasure!

Alf how true. I personally have never intentionally collected anything but if I said I loved a ceramic frog the next thing you know I had a collection. Grandchildren. Well it was a nice gift and as little kids they could pick our their own My favorite is a rock painted on top like a frog from an adult grandchild. Back to florida with The Orchids I think they said there is no known count of the number of species so it could go up. I am reading Toms family history now and though it is interesting I am anxious to get back to Laroche and his eccentric manner of treating Orleans.Faith

Well now Alf I have read that the number of species is never going to stop because they will always be propagating more and more . I felt terrible when that Mark was it sad, Oh yes it makes me kinda sad to throw out 10,000 little plants but they are failures. and I hate to lose the money.....Did you like the word pictures of pig frog hunts with tons of frog legs the result. UHG I dont eat them anyway. Now I never will. And how about all that crime in Florida Seems like Orchid Thiefs may be a dime a dozen so come on What makes Laroche different. Gotta read fast and get to the good part. :>) faith

Hello everyone:

Lorrie, I'm the one who asked about collecting,but what I was interested in was the obsession that can be part of collecting.

I'll relate some of my own machinations with collecting.Several years ago (more than several) I became very interested in collecting art glass and especially paper weights. The collecting "bug" went from a hobby or interest to eventually a full blown obsession that involved buying text books on glass making,books on paper weight history,subscriptions to every magazine available about paper weights,contacting dealers who dealt with paperweights,trips to glass factories in Seattle,trips to museums and glass blowing studios in Corning, NY, Arizona,Northern California, Oregon, and any other place we happened to be.

I think there is a pain/pleasure relationship with obsessive collecting. pleasure with the hunt and acquisition and then pain when you do acquire the object, because the hunt is over and the money has been spent.

There is also "buyers remorse". Remorse because you may be spending money that you don't really want to and remorse when you don't buy an object that you wanted for your collection....So you end up in a "can't win" situation.

Fortunately,for me,when the collecting "fever" reached a critical point, I was able to step away ,and now wonder why I was interested in the first place.

I still admire paperweights and other art glass,but I resist buying.

There is a fascinating book about this called, "Collecting, An Unruly Passion, Psychological perspectives by Werner Muensterberger.

Incidentally,now I collect World War I posters (but not in an obsessive way)

Ed I get obsessive about a subject. I hope I wont about the orchid thief. I had a huge library back in the 80's collected because I read one book on myth then another then I was buying these books because some were not available any place els.e. I had Joseph Cambell I think about 6 books before I was through. One day I had a new one about The myth of the Goddess that was so ridiculous and 'far out' as the kids say, the told my one daughter I was going to have a sale . Some of these books were large illustrated coffee table books more art than story so she came right over and took all my books. I keep a few paper backs. I said no more book obsessions. I go mostly to second hand stores and buy paper backs for a couple of bucks but not new of course. Now I did get the Orchid book and am positively glad I did. I have plans to read this book more than once. I am going through it fairly even paced but noticed i have speeded up since we are reading the list of crimes now. Faith

Oh-- ED" what an honest confession. bless your heart! I understand obsession, It is just that damned collecting I don't "get". Perchance it is because we lived traveling for the past 10 yrs around the country in an RV and the only thing I was proficient at collecting was the dust bunnies, under the stove.

Faith, I guess so. At the beginning it was 40 thousand now as we read 2 days later we are up to 60 thousand species. :=) yowwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

According to what Tom told Orleans there is no end to the propagation of new species. But , I want a Vanda, pink with yellow spots and a swollen lip. So I can become mesmerized and it might even replace my blood pressure medicine. Or a pet.But no pig frogs. I will say again no pig frogs so dont steal any expecting me to buy. Did you read the list of orchid thief crimes yet Alf. Maybe there is no end to that either. This is a great book I. Later off to read. Faith

Does anyone get the feeling that, after Orleans followed up on the original story of Laroche as the thief, when she started talking about orchids, he became almost a secondary topid, almost an afterthought? In fact, I sometimes wish she had followed up on his story a little closer, she has touched pretty lightly over some of his former schemes.

Lorrie

Yes Lorrie I do feel that way but since I am not near the end of the book I was waiting to see if she elaborated on his history. She gave Tom a lot of history, and I keep thinking she is waiting tto develope Laroches history and motivations more, when she gets closer to the "law " thing that I have not read yet except in the blubs. I am waiting and reading. If I would ever stay off the Internet I would read faster Ha Ha faith

Faith: I know what you mean. Posting on this internet becomes almost obsessive, doesn't it? (grin) Because Orlean mentioned the Seminoles quite frequently in her book, I looked up some. Did you know they are the only Indian tribe who still are in a declared state of war with the US? The only tribe that never signed a treaty? And survived American troop attacks?
"The Seminoles. A fierce, proud tribe of Florida, let neither three wars with the United States Army or the harsh Everglade swamps defeat them."

Lorrie

Lorrie: I agree with you about Larouche becoming secondary after a bit.

Larouche seems to have the ability to plan the "deed" and to sell it to some unsuspecting persons,but he's also able to wiggle away from the consequences . A "teflon orchid thief"

I laughed 'til I cried reading about Chas. Fuch's sons who after going to the market on their motor bikes, ran over wild coconuts on their return and the only injuries they sustained were from the coconuts they had stuffed in their shirts, to accomodate their riding "Hands free". Oh my god that was funny.

Even the Seminoles called Larouch "the crazy white man." Orleans sees him as a trouble maker with nmerous obsessions; optimistic --seeing profitable outcomes anywhere-always! She remarks that he can fold virtue and criminality around profit. She marveled at his devotion to the "things he was devoted to" yet she marveled more at his capacity for DETACHMENT. I think she was disappointed in him as he no longer was devoted to the very things that he had poached and "wheedled" out of his friends, she says. All of the very things he had been assembling and/or saving he now had forsaken them all. She says, " Now, I was trying to understand how someone could end such intense desire without leaving a trace. If you had really loved something, wouldn't a little bit of it always linger?" She questions his emotional pitch. He had a new preoccupation , she tells us. This is so typical of the sociopathic personality.

Lorrie and Faith: Even Larouch "the internet is cool, and it won't die on him like the plants, and it's not going to eff him over like the Seminoles." Yep! Ms. Orleans frustration and disenchantment with this loser shows.

Hey I did know about the Seminols and since my ethnic background has 1 Cherokee great grandmother and 3 Scots English (so I am a wild one?) all my great grandfathers were or said they were English or Scots too. Anyway I learned a lot about American Indians. I think Laroche is staying in perfect character and sociopath he seems to be too. But people with obsessions will look up one day, and surrounded by whatever they will just turn off and sell every thing or give it.away. I guess it is the glory of getting not keeping , having. that involves a different kind of devotion. Faith

For any of you who are Scots-Irish (like me), the book "Albion's Seed" by David Hackett Fischer has a most interesting section in it about them. This book takes a look at the first four waves of immigrants who came to America - the Pilgrims who settled in New England, the Cavaliers & Second sons who settled in Virginia, the Quakers who settled in PA and the Scots-Irish who settled in the backwood. He compares the societies as they were in England with what they carried with them in settling the US - why they did what they did. He compares things like attitudes toward stranges, religious ideas, house-building, social mores, naming patterns, etc. While each section is interesting, it is the Scots-Irish who have the most fascinating story to tell. And bizarre sometimes. Some of the early S/I were highly education and went on to become our Presidents, but the rank and file became the mountain men, the hillbillies - who had physical games like eye-gouging, which had to be banned. It is a vert readable book - and probably is in any library of any size. Any of you readers should be very interested in it.

I know this isn't on the subject of orchids or true crime, but since Faith mentioned the words "Scots" and "English" the book was brought to mind and I wanted to share it with you all.

That's great Gail. We are happy to have anyone join in. Faith and I have already been chastised by our fearless leader, Lorrie, so take heed of her.

The rest of us rattle away at any given moment during the day (with my insomnia sometimes in the middle of night).

I finished my book last night and have a couple of comments. I was disappointed and have the feeling SO is a better story-teller than she is a chronicler. She's got a marvelous wit with her cynical observations.. I enjoyed the majority of the book and being educated about the lengths that people will go to obtain their "hearts desire." Someone earlier on mentioned the fact that it seems SO was in florida for one heck of a long time. I agree 100% !! Has anyone read other articles or stories she's written?

Lorrie, you are a gem of a DL and I can't tell you how thoroughly I have enjoyed this book with you. It takes a good DL to keep a "chatty" conversation going thruout a read. Faith , you are a little devil and I loved your comments. You sound like my kinda gal. Come on down and we'll chase some of those Seminoles around the pepper trees.

Alf, that sounds suspiciously like a swan song. Don't you dare leave here, you and Faith have become our mainstay posters, and besides we can't leave you down there in your wilderness yard, staring back at all your bromeliards that are watching you, too! I'm afraid you'll crawl into one of your orchid plants and we'd never hear from you again. Here I was going to suggest that we all take up a collection and send Ed as many glass paperwights as we can find! I'm sure he'd love to add to his collection!! hahaha But no pig frogs for you, Faith! I promise.

Did you sense that Orlean was surprised that Laroche could shed his obsession with orchids so quickly and completely? It seems as though when he goes on to another project he does so with a clean break, and focuses all his attention on his new endeavor. Was it that easy for you, Ed?

Lorrie

Ed: I would truly love a paper weight much better than the "real" things. Are you obsessed with orchids, too? Be honest, now.

Lorrie: You are too funny! I have to return my book to the library and I will be heading out to St. Augustine (the oldest city in the country) tomorrow AM and will be off line until Sat. AM.

Yes, she does sound surprised although, throughout she scorns him in her own way- almost as if SHE can't believe she likes him either. She touts him as being "a law bending, shrewd bast---," a great criminal (is this awe?) SHE herself says he lives on the edge of ethics and he likes it there. So--- I ask- WHY is she so surprised by his shunning of the beloved orchids? He didn't even go to the orchid show, he "fixed 'em."

I am so slow I am still hysterically involved with the Fuch trial. I read it a couple of times last night. I watch a lot of court tv to get my true crime fix and so while reading I was hearing and seeing this "scriped/camera shots etc." as a tv show and giggling all by myself and If there was a camera in my tv watching me (I have a paranoid neightbor who looks for signs of cameras everywhere) It would have a funny picture of a mad old woman laughing in her easy chair eating ginger snaps and reading. I will catch up and let you know what I think. Better believe it. I bought the Red Tent too so we better set that up for June Huh can we Huh. Faith

Alf, Lorrie ,Ed, No frogs either. My grandchildren (all adult married now) when they were small every birthday I had frogs on the napkins on the tablecloth on my apron every where and all those ceramics. They are still on my front porch. I gave some away to great grandchildren. But if you want to start an obsession well...................Faith

Faith, Like Alf here, I really enjoy reading your comments. Your description of a little old lady sitting before a TV watching a courtroom scene, clutching this book, and laughing hysterically, could be me, except that I have a chocolate chip cookie. Yes, I thought that Fuchs trial was funny. And the picturization of that not-so-noble Seminole chief who had so much trouble with his defense when on trial for killing a panther!

Lorrie

The Native Americans on the reservation are entitled by one law to to remove protected species from their land. Is this law justified, in your opinion?

Lorrie

LaRoche is anything but a hero isn't he. Passionate and clever to be sure, but so consumed by the obsession to have rare orchids and to monopolize and profit from them that he was willing to rape the Everglades and break laws to accomplish his task, just as have many of his predecessors and collectors of today. I think he was nothing more than an interesting character and an opportunist and conniver who flirts with living on the edge and by whim. As I said before, I don't think this book was about him. I think the author set out to do a story on him, but found his world far more interesting (orchids, Indians and Florida) and his story was just a background for the book. She never did fully tell his story and we really don't know that much about him or what happened to him. Wasn't it odd that LaRoche the expert on Everglades orchids could not even lead the author to a blooming Ghost Orchid in the swamp and the anthor never saw one. Wouldn't it have been appropriate to have a picture of the Ghost Orchid in the book or on the cover so people could see what the big deal was all about. The orchid on the cover is not a Ghost Orchid and is in fact pictured upside down.

I liked her writing style, very entertaining, and she did a good job of describing the orchid obsession, but I don't think she really understood it herself. I can assure you the obsession is very real and most orchid collectors experience it to some degree.

By the way the book is true in all aspects as far as I can determine. The feuding among the Florida orchid growers is well known in the orchid community.

I really enjoyed the book and reading your reactions to it. You all brought up many things I had not focused on as an orchid freak, so it was enlightening for me, thanks.

Sherlock

Hi everyone:

I have not the slightest interest in collecting orchids.

As far as the paperweights went,When the pain of collecting them outdistanced the pleasure it was easy to give it up.I still look at them at antique shops, craft shows etc.but I haven't really seen anything that entices me back. Also, I started to reach a physical limit of storage and a monetary limit of treading in dangerous territory.

Just about at the end, Orleans writes" I suddenly felt sorry for him,for having his heart broken again,and again,and then I felt sorry for everything..." I'm guessing that in some way, Susan was in "love" with Larouche. Does anyone think that she suffered from Stockholm Syndrome in her relationship with Larouche?

Hey, Sherlock, I knew you'd be chiming in here one of these days. I like your comments about the cover --I didn't even know the orchid was upside down, which shows you how much I know about these plants!

I was struck also by the fact that Laroche, supposedly such a hunter of orchids, couldn't seem to find a specimen of the Ghost orchid to show her. Didn't one of the rangers finally do so?

Ed: Stockhom Syndrome? Do you feel that Orlean was somehow a hostage of John Laroche? I really can't see her being in love with him, despite the inordinate time she spent on his story. I think she felt pity, at the end.

Lorrie

Oh I have been thinking that not finding a ghost orchid is metaphor for not really finding Laroche. She never does get inside him or him clearly. Others do seem to see him and tell her what is what regarding him but she "does not see" and yea someone else thinks she was more than infatuated with him, she was "fascinated" and also of course with the story of the orchid collectors. She finds Laroche cold, able to give up what she thought he loved so much ""without a backward glance." He never gave her much to go on that I could see. Fascinating Bookand I am still reading the last couple of chapters. Faith

Hi everyone:

Lorrie, I got the impression that Susan Orlean became so infatuated with Larouche,that she in effect became his hostage and perhaps lost her objectivity in writing about the subject.

If she felt pity for him,it might be because she was not able to gather enough "anger" to criticize him for what I thought was a project to "save something by destroying it."

Perhaps, I'm overreaching in my interpretation,but I don't think Larouche cared one whit about poaching orchids from protected lands, and potentially interfering with the normal course of nature. Since nothing happens in a vacuum, and every action causes a reaction,the long term effects of any kind of poaching are unknown. As for interfering with nature,just look at what's happening in Los Alamos. I enjoyed the book,very much,however, I agree with one negative criticism that I read that stated that as a book,The Orchid Thief was a good long magazine article. One thing for sure, I'll look for more New Yorker articles by the author.

Ed, i think we're all agreed that Susan Orlean did a masterful job in writing about this obsession with orchids that so many people have. My one complaint is that I feel the reader expects a little more of the "crime" element suggested by the title, and is led astray off on the subject of orchids, Darwin, the rights of Native Americans, etc. But that doesn't mean that it isn't a very engrossing book, and like you, I'll be watching for more articles by this author.

Lorrie

Lorrie, Ed, yes I think there is agreement with Alf too those she is out of town, that Orleans is a wonderful writer. really a poet but she let me down in her examination of LaRoche in regard to his crime. And Ed is right he is totally uncaring of the ecology of the swamp. He uses people, plants, birds and anything else he wants to and dumps them and I find him a totally reprehensible charcter and an inept crook. And not so fascinating by the end of the book. I love those seminoles and I am glad the fellow with light hair and blue eyes came and revamped the business for them. I am waiting to see what Alf posts when she gets on line. Faith

Some people have raised the question of John LaRoche's morality. At times I thought that this was just an ordinary greedy litle guy with a "lottery" mentality, who apparently can't live seem to live within the conventional bounds that most of us feel comfortable with, but there's a little more complexity to it than that. The law that he broke was so badly written that he was able to abuse it and take advantage of it, but I don't really think he is a charlatan. More than Laroche himself, I found some of the descriptions of the Okefenokee area fascinating and full of intriguing details. I'm not sure if I ever want to visit there, but it sure is fun reading about it.

Lorrie

After that last attempt to go find the Ghost in the swamp with Laroche (some times sp LaRoche) and she seems to have an empathy for his lack of character, his loss of loved things and people, but she no longer is fascinated or "obsessed" by him. Ed lost his obsession with paper weights. Laroche lost his obsession with orchids. Orleans lost her obsession with Laroche and I am the big winner because it is a delightful book, well written, and pack so full of information I am going to keep this one in library. Usually give away paper backs but not always. My daughter may borrow it but I need to read it again after I cool off. All in all the book was about obsession, and lust, and greed so if she did not spend enough time on Laroche, filling out my picture of him that is a small loss and maybe when I re-read I will come up with different feelings entirely. I often do with a good book. I for one really would like an Orchid for mothers day but when I was in Raleys today they didnt have them in the refrigerator yet. Usually they have corsages of the plain florist orchid orchid which is lavender with yellow and then a creamy white one I love. For exotics are to expensive for grocery store florests to stock I guess. To tell the truth up at Tahoe where I grew up we had huge Tiger Lilly plants with big flowers that were so orange, wtih black stips there couldnt be an orchid more lovely It was against Forsest Serice rules to pick or dig them even in the 30's.. Faith

Faith, I think it would be wonderful if we could send one of the book's intrepid orchid hunters, not necessarily Laroche, into the swamps to fine you an exotic orchid to wear today. Personally, I would settle for a tiger lily any day---they are lovely plants, indeed! Your analysis of the book was very well thought out. I enjoyed reading your reaction to it, as I'm sure the others lurking in here did.

Lorrie

Thank you, Lorrie and everyone for a good time. I have theRed Tent on hand ANYONE? . what else is on the agenda. I have to gather books from all over my house again. There is one open in every room literally. Got a new cook book from daughter its in the kitchen. Faith

Hang in there, dear Faith. We're going to be doing another true crime story here soon---I'm not sure which one it will be yet, but we'll let you know in plenty of time to get a copy. I enjoy your posts, Faith, and Alf, too. Sherlock is as good an authority as anything in the book, in my estimation, and I was really tickled by Ed's confession of his obsession wih glass paperweights.

Lorrie

I just finished the book Thursday.

Hala-holy-lujah! You guys have all been a joy and a pleasure to share this book with. Mr LaRoche pretty much fits his name (the roach.) Ms. Orleans, I believe, wasn't quite as ready for this tale as she thought she would be. Faith, Gail, I'm game for the Red Tent. If I can't find it, I'll spring and have to buy it, I guess. Lorrie and Ed you did a delightful job as leaders. have a wonderful mother's day, ladies. Andrea

Ed , Lorrie, Red Tent June first , right. I will start reading it later tonight and see what I am in for. Faith

Alf make the library give it to you. Tell them you dont own any stock. :.) lol glad your back. Did you have fun. Faith

It is a glorious city to trtek around in. Lots of history and VERY colorful personalities. Where's Lorrie? Are we done here, Miss Lorrie/

I am now waiting to hear from our fearless commentator, Ed! I just propositioned him and I'm awaiting an answer. Now, now, it's nothing like that!

Lorrie

Oh dear, I do believe THAT is more than Faith and I needed to know, dear lorrie. Get going on that book of yours, I want to buy the 1st copy. good luck and love to you all. Andrea

Ladies, I need your output. Or whatever it's called. Do you think there would be an interest in a book about the mastermind crook on whom Conan Doyle based his Professor Moriarity? It's called "Napoleon of Crime" all about a true life criminal during Victorian crimes who was finally done in by a Pinkerton detective? Or do you think readers might want to discuss one of Ann Rules' books? Let me know what you think. How about you, Sherlock? Your namesake would be mentioned. Could you tear yourself away from your orchids long enough to talk about a different subject? After all, this is supposed to be a True Crime discussion!

Lorrie

Hi Lorrie, sounds like fun. Don't know if I will have the time, but maybe. We are in the process of selling our home and moving to the State of Washington. I have been known to dabble in mysteries though, and there is a reason I have been nicknamed Sherlock. My real name is Larry and Sherlock was bestowed upon me by close friends for CB radio and cyber use.

Larry

Sherlock: I still like Sherlock better. It makes me think of a guy sneaking around with a huge microscope, in a deerstalker's cap, peering into the bowels of an exotic orchid, and exclaiming, "Look, Watson, the Ghost Orchid! We've found it at last!"

Anyway, join us in between bouts of packing your stuff. Incidentally, good luck to your move! I know very little about the state of Washington. Doesn't it rain a lot there, and don't they drink a lot of coffee?

Lorrie

Okay, all you nice people! Think we have gone about as far as we can with "The Orchid Thief?" I must say, I enjoyed reading about this capricious character, and I've learned a lot about orchids, to say nothing of some parts of southern Florida. This is a good book, and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it to anyone. Thanks for bringing it to our attention, Ed!

Lorrie

Thank You, Lorrie! You've done a fine job leading this discussion. You've succeeded in ushering us around the swamps with ease.

Yes, thank you, Lorrie and Ed, for your usual excellent leadership. I haven't commented much, I'm sorry--the book was well-written but the subject just did not grab me; my fault. I would read Ms. Orlean again, if writing on a matter of more interest to me.

I've just been lurking, more or less. I tried to read the book but found after getting a third of the way through it I was just not interested enough to continue. I am sure it was just me.....your discussions have all been so interesting!

I am slowly reading this book and havent kept up with the comments being made but hope to scroll back ... I wondered if there was a discussion on the crime statistics of the entire united states and if there is any state where there is more likely found criminal behaviors manifest...I am thinking about how Florida has so much wetlands that can be rung dry so as to parcel out into lots which are then sold as real estate...I have been in Florida a short time and found it to be filled with people who came from the midwest...Is it a haven with bountiful opportunites for crime? Just wondering! Ann

Ann, I found Ms Orleans book extremely well done in many ways but not when it comes to the Crime aspect of the book. The crime's committed by the orchid lovers are ecological crimes to be sure, and punishable as Larouche found out but the stealing of outdoor furniture, pots, plants, etc goes on right here in Califronia and we even had a business put up a camera to catch a criminal who was digging up the restuarants flower bed infront on a major street. The film was on the evening news. A lady in a nice car slammed on her brakes pulled a trowel and box out of her trunk, dug up a newly planted area of marigolds and then raced off and it took just a few minutes to strip the bed. I was shocked at the idea.and the act. I was more shocked when I lost hundreds of dollers worth of plants in pots around my front patio.I hope you finish the book. and enjoy it. Faith

Faith, I am sorry for your loss. Yrs ago, my best friend called me hysterical begging to come to her house right away. She was crying and I was scared to death! she had 6 kids and all I could think of driving over there was something horrible had happened to one of the kids. When I got there (8 am or so) none of the kids were there and I asked her what in the name of God was wrong. She began to sob hysterically that some rotten person had robbed her OF HER PLANTS during the night. "Your plants" I yelled, "for Gods sake I thought something drastic had happened." she said "It is drastic, they are just like one of my kids. Oh brother! I have never let her forget that she about scared the liver out of me over porch plants. I guess I just dont get it.

Alf It was the money , honey...I really have never been able to replace the pots even if a bunch of cuttings are available. And I felt I would just lose them all over. I have my porched screened in now but it could still be a temptation if it gets really pretty as it was in those days. I cant do the gardening I did because of this back problem. But I get a lot of reading done. And I play on this computer a lot. Faith

Bless you heart Faith. You're right! $$$$$$$$$$$$$

I would come apart at this point, after just paying the landscapper as astronomical amt of $$$$. If someowe stole the plants the cash register would start clinking in the ole brain.

Ann Thamm: It's nice to see you posting in here. And you, too, Gail! Ann, your question about crime in florida is interesting. Any of you Floridians know about this?

Faith and Alf: It's infuriating to have someone steal something not only for he money involved, but the work you put into planting the things! When we were living in Northern Wisconsin, we had a grouping of almost perfectly formed balsam and pine trees along our driveway right where they were quite visible. and vey pretty they were. Imagine our dismay when we returned home one evening to find someone had cut down three of those lovely trees for Christmas trees, even though we had 40 acres of woods behind us where anyone was welcome to come in and cut a Christmas tree for nothing.