In PERFECT SUMMER Luanne Rice writes about love and losses, family obligations and parenthood, and sadness and courage. PERFECT SUMMER is just a wonderful, romantic summer read, taking us on an emotional trip through the world of the McCabe family during a crisis period in their lives. It's all waiting for us, wrapped up in a two week discussion package, starting JULY 15.

Sign in and let us know that you plan to be with us.

PLEASE COME AND JOIN US FOR THIS DELIGHTFUL DISCUSSION.

Harriet and Marjorie

I got the book and hope to join this discussion. Rice is one of my favorite authors and maybe my train wreck of a life will have settled down by then.

Looking forward to it.

I don't have the book, but will look for it at the library and my used book store. Is it out in paperback or is it a hard back? When was it published? I'm hoping to join you for the discussion. Luanne Rice is a favorite. Sue

WELCOME, WELCOME, JUDY AND SUE!

How lovely to see both of your names. PERFECT SUMMER is available in paperback and was published in July 2003, SUE. It's available at B&N and, I would imagine, in many other outlets.

Luanne Rice is one of my favorites also, JUDY. I think it'll be a lovely book to lose ourselves in during a summer day. I'm looking forward to all of us reading it together.

Harriet

JUDY and SUE: Welcome. This promises to be a great discussion. There seemed to me to be lots of things to discuss in this book. It is set in the same town as a number of Luanne Rice's other books so some of the minor characters might be familiar.

I was very impressed with the link in the second paragraph in the heading. A wonderful description of this book without giving away the story at all. I gave me something else to think about for when I read the book again just before the discussion starts.

P.S. SUE: I got my copy of the book from half.com and I would guess your library will have it.

I got the book, but I haven't started it yet. I've never read Rice before so I'm looking forward to reading her and the discussion group as well.

Welcome SCRAWLER. Happy to have you join us.

Hi Marjorie and Harriet,

I have a copy coming in the mail. I love Luanne Rice. I am looking forward to reading it with you.

Isn't that great, HATS! We'll have such a nice time.

THANKS SO MUCH TO ALL OF YOU FOR YOUR INTEREST!

Harriet

HATS: I haven't seen your posts for a long time. I guess we have been in different discussions. I am glad you will be joining us.

I just went to the Luanne Rice's page about The Perfect Summer. It sounds like it'll be a good one. Sue

We have our quorum so the discussion has been moved up to the section of Coming Attractions.

If you use subscriptions, don't forget to subscribe.

Hi all. I just ordered this book from Half.com for only 75 cents plus a couple dollars shipping. What a bargain. I'm looking forward to a couple of fun weeks discussing it. (Judy, Hi. I see we meet again, so for this discussion I'll be Judy2, ok?)

WELCOME TO JUDY 2! We're thrilled with each and every JUDY among us. The more the merrier!

Isn't this going to be fun!

Harriet

Judy2 sounds great to me.

Welcome JUDY2.

I get most of my books from half.com for 75 cents plus postage. I am sure I, also, got my copy of The Perfect Summer that way. It is so easy. The closest library is on 2 floors and there is are huge ramps outside. One ramp goes downstairs and the other goes upstairs. The books are downstairs and the checkout is upstairs. Not convenient.

How many of you have read other books by Luanne Rice? I have read several. I think the very first Luanne Rice book I read was Cloud Nine.

I didn't get such a bargain, but did get a copy of The Perfect Summer at my local trading books store for about $4.00 when the tax was added. I am looking forward to reading it, but will hold off until closer to the 15th. I got Rice's Dance With Me at the library on Monday and really enjoyed reading it. It involves a mother who is beginning to have Alzheimer's symptoms, a young woman who gave up her daughter at birth, and a man who has lost his wife and daughter to a tragic death. I think it's a good read if you like this sort of complicated plot for a romance novel. Sue

SUE: $4.00 isn't bad when you don't have to wait for the book. When I buy books at half.com, the shipping for a paperback is $2.79 making the total cost for a 75 cent book $3.54.

Her website is fascinating.

JUDY2: If you haven't read Luanne Rice before, I think you are in for a treat. Of course, I like her a lot. I'm glad you found her website fascinating.

Thanks Marjorie. I hope I LOVE the book - because when I discover an author I like, I tend to keep on reading her/him until there are no more books left. Rice has a whole summerful of books, so if I like this one, I'll be all set for quite a while. Judy2

I like to do the same thing also MARJORIE and JUDY2.

I like that Luanne Rice books are usually set in contemporary times and tend to explore human relationships, marriage, and family. Somewhere in there she manages to hit a common chord that people can relate to.

Harriet

I went to our new beautiful Library this morning and picked up Luannes' book only to find when I got home that I already have it and better yet have read it. I will reread it so I can come in and discuss it with you all.

I just finished reading Nora Roberts Key trilogy, great books!!!





Terri

Welcome NONNIE. I am very glad to have you join our discussion. I often get a book and then find out I already read it. You are lucky you got the book at the library. At least you didn't purchase the book as I often do.

I got the book and had already read it and I keep a list so there you have it.

JUDY: I guess a number of us who talk about this book will have read it before. I wonder if that will be an advantage or a disadvantage?

NONNIE, you're my kind of people if you enjoy Nora Roberts books. By the way, do you have any preference about your name? Should we call you NONNIE or TERRI?

Harriet

I have put the Reading Schedule up in the heading. We plan to discuss the first half of the book the first week and the rest of the book the second week. There will be questions in the heading for July 15.

Just a reminder to all...we begin our discussion day after tomorrow, on Thursday, July 15.

Please come and join us. Marjorie and I are looking forward to the pleasure of your company.

Harriet

Hi Marjorie and Harriet. I think I'm going to read a bit of The Perfect Summer before I go to bed tonight. I hope I'll be able to stop before going too far. My problem with Luanne Rice is that I want to read it all in one day! Sue

I know exactly what you mean SUE. I am rereading the book for the 3rd time and it is every bit as interesting as it was the first time. However, it is easier to put down.

The first time I read it was in January of this year and then I read it again over a month ago when HARRIET and I were talking about doing a discussion. I need to have the story fresh in my mind for Thursday. I read so many books that the stories run together sometimes. I would like to always finish a book before I go to bed.

On Thursday we will have some questions in the discussion that should remind everyone of what the story is about. Once we get started talking everything should go just fine. There is a lot to talk about in this book.

MARJORIE AND SUE, I just know we'll all enjoy talking about this book. There are some passages in it that always move me, even when I've read them before.

I think this story shines because it has some aspects that we can all relate to.

Harriet

I just got my book today and have read a few pages of it...I would like to join the discussion.

WELCOME, ANNIE3!

We're delighted that you're joining us. We'll all have such a lovely time.

Harriet

I started reading last night and didn't put out the light until 12:30. This was hard to do, even then, as I was already hooked on the story, but I had to get up early to get over to my house for some tile work. I will continue reading this evening, but have another early get up tomorrow so will have to watch the clock.

I really should be taking notes about things I want to bring to the discussion, but will probably go back and pick up things as we go along. Sue

It's so nice to hear that you're enjoying the book, SUE. We're very glad you're reading it with us. I believe, as MARJORIE said, that once we all begin talking to each other in the discussion, we'll discover the pathway through the book together.

Remember, dear readers, we're only covering approximately half of the book in the first week, through chapter 17. We'll all want to stay within those pages during the first week so that we're discussing the same material at the same time.

Everyone, let me add my recommendation to Marjorie's. Keep watching the heading tomorrow, and each successive day of our discussion also, for some new questions that we hope may trigger your urge to express yourself.

Harriet

Welcome ANNIE3. Delighted to have you join us. This is a great book.

Ray picked up a copy of Luanne Rice's book from the library for me this morning. We will be leaving for vacation on July 18th returning late on July 25th. I plan on reading it while on vacation. I haven't read anything by Luanne Rice. You have me eager to start it.

I'm looking forward to my first Senior Net book discussion. Thelma from Houston

Welcome CAT WOMAN. I hope you enjoy our discussion. It sounds like you are a cat lover. In the Animals ~ Feathers, Fins, and Furry Friends folder you will find a fun discussion of Cats >^..^<.

I am reading the book for the second time and I think I have surpassed the seventeenth chapter so I guess no reading for me tonight.LOL





Terri

I want to welcome all of you to this discussion. I have now read the book at least 3 times and I have enjoyed it each time. Everything that Luanne Rice writes seems so very real to me.

I have just put the questions in our heading for our discussion of The Perfect Summer. These questions are simply a guide. You can talk about anything else about the book as long as we stay with the first 17 chapters for now.

I really like Bay and Tara and Annie, Billy, and Pegeen. They are really human with strengths and weaknesses.

I also welcome one and all to our discussion of PERFECT SUMMER. What a lovely group we have shaping up here. We do enjoy lively discussions with many participants and many varying opinions.

GINNY ANN, how great to see you! I hope you'll be able to join us before and after your holiday. Read a few chapters and jump right in. It's such a nice book.

It's particularly exciting when new bookies enter our discussions....so... a special welcome to CAT WOMAN and NONNIE! We hope you both have such a good time here that you'll want to participate in many future book discussions as time goes on. We're so glad that you're joining us.

For those of you who are new to our book discussions, we will take two weeks to gradually and lovingly talk about our book. Please don't feel you have to answer all the questions in the heading in one post. The fun of any discussion is in trading our different opinions and interpretations and responding to each other's ideas.

There are no wrong or right answers because each of us may see things differently and it can be those same very different opinions that shed light and enrichment for all of us.

Please remember, we always try to talk to each other with respect and courtesy.

THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR YOUR PARTICIPATION.

Harriet

.

The book opens in such an idyllically beautiful setting...a garden in which old roses, hollyhock, and delphinium bloom. It all seems so ideal, yet we begin to get mixed impressions about the emotions of the McCabe family members on this golden day.

Is Bay a content woman?

Do you feel she is a loving mother?

What sort of grievances does Bay have concerning her husband? Would you consider Sean to be an inconsiderate husband, or Is he merely an ambitious man as the story opens?

Why would Sean want to hire a gardener? Why would Bay object to this? Do you feel that Sean is merely trying to spare her from doing work, or might he have another purpose?

What are YOUR opinions?

Harriet

When I first started the book, I wondered "hmmm... why on earth would Sr. Net want to discuss this?" The plot seemed rather trite and predictable, the characters didn't seem to be 3 dimensional at all. But, it held my interest well enough to pick up for before bedtime reading. But THEN...

As I got further along, I became more and more involved - so much so that now I want to rush to the end and begin again to look more closely at the characters. I LOVE the close, sister-like relationship between Bay and Tara. They are so valuable to each other.

Harriet asked if Sean was inconsiderate. Yes, indeed - he certainly appears to be. Quite self absorbed, selfish, careless. That's one of the reasons I think it's so lucky that Bay has Tara. The children, especially the son, seem to have very unique personalities, and I'm interested in getting to know them better. Judy2

The book cover with its lovely flowers and the first view of Bay in her garden suggest that she is a happy, serene woman in a good marriage, but just as in real life, what others see is the "cover," not what lies beneath, and we quickly learn that Bay isn't as happy as she appears. Her ambiitious, self-absorbed husband seems to have little insight into what's important to Bay. He even wanted to hire a gardener, not realizing how important gardening was to his wife. Why does she stay in this "tainted" marriage? Probably for a lot of reasons. Change is hard, she's made a commitment, at some level she would wonder what a failed marriage would say about her as a person.

Well I think she stayed in the marriage because it was the life she wanted aside from pretending that her husband was responsible and loving. She seemed to love where she was living and would not be able to live there on her own.

1. Staying in a problematic marriage is diffcult to say the least, but sometimes its the lesser of two evils. Bay McCabe felt she had to stay with Sean because in her heart I think she felt that she believed him when he said he was going to change and I also think that she really did love him.

2. Bay and Sean were different and as they say opposites attract. He was outgoing and she was quiet and a loner.

3. I think in case of the teenager Bay McCabe she had a crush on him. For one thing he paid attention to her and as a teenager and shy teeenager like Bay it is hard to get people to pay attention to you.

I'm not a big fan of romance novels but I really liked "The Perfect Summer" because it had a little pinch of romance and a little pinch of mystery to it.

I thought Luanne Rice really did a good job of describing the sister-like relationship between Bay and Tara. I've heard it said that a friend is really a sister you've never had.

What a terrific beginning to our discussion!

JUDY2, I think your point is very well taken when you mention the importance of Bay and Tara's relationship. If Bay understands, deep down, that her husband doesn't always care about her as much as she would like, isn't it wonderful for her to have a friend who's always on HER side?

Yet, where is the point when enough is enough in a tense marital relationship? Do you admire someone who hangs in there trying to make a marriage work? Or do you respect someone with a tad more self-interest? Does anyone have any opinions on that?

CAT WOMAN, love your perceptive comments.

...in real life, what others see is the "cover," not what lies beneath...

...Her ambitious, self-absorbed husband seems to have little insight into what's important to Bay...

Great comments.

And yes, I agree that change can be hard.

ANNIE3, what an interesting point. Do you feel that Bay is consciously pretending to herself that Sean is loving and responsible, so that her life, and her children's lives can continue normally?

Maybe that's so. Yet, don't you all feel that it takes a brave soul to face trouble the minute it appears? It's sure easier to look away from sadness until it hits us in the face.

SCRAWLER said:

Bay McCabe felt she had to stay with Sean because in her heart I think she felt that she believed him when he said he was going to change and I also think that she really did love him.

I really love the variety of opinions on Bay's marriage. I also admired this statement.

A friend is really a sister you've never had.

Such wonderful thoughts that help us to interpret our book.

Please, everyone, don't hesitate to bring up any other points that may have interested you in the book, as long as they fall within this week's reading schedule. Your comments are such fun to read.

Harriet

I think Bay was attracted to Sean because he was popular and out going and he paid a lot of attention to her when they were teenagers but as it turns out once the pursuit got him Bay, his attentions went to other women and the ambitions of his work.I found him to be very self absorbed.

The friendship between Bay and Tara tugged at my heart strings. Oh to have that kind of friendship with another woman at this time of my life would be joyous.

The children all have their own personalities and are dealing with their grieve in different ways.

As for Dan and Bay, I think deep down Bay always loved him and settled on Sean because she couldn't have Dan.

I have read this book once already so i know the ending but I am having fun recalling a lot of it and noticing some things i missed first time around.





Terri

My book came this morning, but I've read too few pages to make a meaningful contribution. So I'm begging for a day or so. Thank you.

In some ways I admire Bay for sticking with Sean. He is a jerk, IMO, but she loves him, her children love him--and divorce is often very hard on the children. If she were to leave him, her financial problems would mount. He probably would not make good contributions to her income and he already misses events which are important to the children. After a divorce, that would probably change to little or no contact.

On the other hand, I wouldn't have put up with such a jerk. I had a wonderful husband and he was a loving father, too. But I've had friends (and 2 sisters) who had miserable marriages. I've often wondered why they put up with it. In the case of my sisters, they eventually divorced and had to raise their children alone--a daunting task.

Bay is very fortunate to have her lifelong friend so close physically as well as emotionally. In Nonnie71's post #50, she says "The friendship between Bay and Tara tugged at my heart strings. Oh to have that kind of friendship with another woman at this time of my life would be joyous."

I agree with Nonnie. That is one of the things I miss most. I still have 5 friends, 4 from our Navy days, and 1 high school friend, who are still close like Tara and Bay in emotional strength, but far away in place. However, we keep in touch by e-mail, phone, and visits and the friendships are still strong. Three of the Navy friends are as close and sometimes closer than my sisters. I love them like sisters, just wish they were nearer. All 5 have been especially precious since I lost my husband to cancer.

I have recently moved to a new town and have made a number of friends so far, but none are that close. Hopefully, I will find another soul mate here. Sue

I am just delighted with how well you are all explaining things about the book that I think I somehow "knew" but couldn't quite express.

CAT WOMAN: You are so right when you say "first view of Bay in her garden suggest that she is a happy, serene woman in a good marriage, but just as in real life, what others see is the "cover," not what lies beneath". One of the things I was thinking in my recent rereading of this book is how wonderfully serene it all starts out.

TRAUDE: I am glad you will be joining us. Post when you can.

SUE: You were fortunate having a wonderful husband. I "put up with" a husband who was very controlling. Why? At the time I thought it was important for parents to stay together for the children. I did leave him, after 29 years, when my children were grown and out of the house. If I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't have stayed that long. I thought I loved him but when I look back I think that our dysfunctions fit together. Another reason I stayed with him is that he could have been so much worse. He was a much better husband to me than Sean was to Bay. Another reason I stayed is that change is very difficult for me. I don't know that that is so for everyone.

NONNIE, SCRAWLER, ANNIE, and JUDY2: Your comments were all perfect. I am delighted you are all part of this discussion. Tomorrow I will do my best to be on my computer more than I was today so that I can participate as the discussion goes along.

Two more questions have been added to the heading for your consideration. Both questions have to do with Annie.

Annie is a very sensitive girl and I liked her a lot. She is going through a difficult time because her world has changed drastically: first, her father is late picking up Pegeen; then there is blood on his boat; and, finally there are police and reporters.

I can not even begin to imagine how I would have reacted to all that change when I was 12 years old. I was also the oldest child. The home I grew up in was very stable. What would you have done in such a situation?

Why did Bay stay in her marriage? I think she didn't want to end the marriage, she wanted Sean to change his ways. She didn't have a job or an independant income; and Sean was an excellent provider.

She had 3 kids to raise, who adored their father. Certainly she wouldn't have allowed herself to hurt her children by tossing their beloved Dad out the door.

She was smack dab in the middle of a very Irish community. I assume that she was raised according to at least some Irish Catholic doctrine, which frowns on divorce.

Finally, think of some of the widely held negative stereotypical traits attributed to Irish men - heavy drinkers, wild brawlers, unrealistic dreamers, irresponsible, sentimental mama's boys, etc. Both Bay and Sean were deeply Irish, she might have believed she was very lucky to have skirt-chasing Sean, because things could have been a lot worse.

By the way, all you Irish SrNetters: don't take this post the wrong way - I'm of Irish stock, 100%.

Judy2

When Annie found the dory missing she knew her father was gone. Now I wonder if Sean planned ahead for Bay's future by hiring Danny to do the boat for Annie. Of course everyone has redeaming qualities and perhaps that was his.

That's a tremendous insight, JUDY2. I hadn't thought of the religious angle at all. What a good point! Religious beliefs might have had a big part in holding Bay and Sean's marriage together.

Also, as a responsible mother, Bay would want the children to grow up in a home with both parents.

By the way, do you all feel that the story line has successfully established Bay as a good mother? She's a sympathetic figure, no question about that...but what suggests to you that she's a good mother?

ANNIE3, you're giving Sean the benefit of the doubt and attributing redeeming qualities to him. At this stage of the book, that's a very logical supposition, and of course, as you've pointed out, every human being has some lovable and redeeming traits. Surely Bay couldn't have fallen in love with Sean if she hadn't once seen the warm, loving adventurous side of him.

What a tender analysis of this very complex man, ANNIE3. Thank you.

Like ANNIE3, I also felt at this stage of reading the book, that Sean must deeply love his daughter, Annie, in order for him to have decided to commission a life-size dory from her carved model. Yet, this father DOES tend to put Annie down from time to time? Can you think of any such instances? I wonder what's going on there?

In most marriages, there are periods of anger and/or anxiety as well as happiness. All of that can come with the married state. I think Bay accepted this and tried to keep their personal differences from the children.

Sean however, by unwise telephone calls within hearing range of his children, and irregular working hours, transmitted anxiety to his children as well as his wife.Do you feel he deserves the adoration his children give him?

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

Harriet

Annie is a very impressionable young girl. She very much wanted the attention of her father, which he gave to a certain extent but he always followed his attention with a comment about her size.She wanted him to love her so badly, so she made him the boat, because he loved boats and when it was gone it upset her because he had promised her he would keep it with him always, it was like a betrayal to her once again. I relate to this emotion because my father never showed me love and I spent my life trying to find it, sometimes in all the wrong places and today I still feel like I have never known true love.



Terri

P.S. I think Bay was a good mother to some extent but she failed to recognize some of Annies hurt and the way she was grieveing and why.





Terri

4. I think one reason that Annie wanted her father's approval was because he was so negative toward her. She probably thought it was her fault. On the other hand her mother who was with her more than her father never really found fault with Annie and Annie might not have appreciated that response. Communication is so vaulable when you are rasing a family. Sean never really comunicated with Bay, but he did with Annie because he didn't see her for who she really was. He was always trying to get her to change. Bay on the other hand accepted her as the teenager she was.

5. Annie had given the model to Sean and he had promised to keep it always. I think she saw the missing model as a betrayl of her father. I think she may have seen Sean for who he really was more so than Bay. It seems to me that there were times that Bay was still living her childhood fantasies and that Annie was seeing the here and now.

I think the relationship between Annie and Sean is one of the more interesting in the book because it's so complex and such a true reflection of the way parents and children often relate. Annie wants to please Sean but she disappoints him because she's heavy and she isn't an athlete. That hurts her but she tries harder. She invests so much time and effort in the little boat and finally does seem to get her father's love and approval. Although we don't see Sean, we feel his ambivalent relationship with his oldest child. He wants to love her, even does love her at times, but then she doesn't measure up to the child he imagined so he hurts her. Although I liked Bay and Tara's closeness, it wasn't as interesting as the father-daughter relationship because it was so predictable. They were always going to be there for each other, always going to care for one another. As for Bay, yes, I think she was a good mother. We saw that every time she sat with one of her grieving children, let them express their grief and their love and disappointment. She always seemed to say the right thing.

JUDY2: You mentioned so many points as you explained why Bay stayed with Sean: financial support for her family; children who loved their father; the religious/community importance of keeping the marriage intact; and the concern that things were not as bad as they could have been. Very complete and reasonable. Thanks.

HARRIET: I think Bay is a good mother because she puts her children's welfare first. She isn't a perfect mother because she can't read Annie's mind to understand what she is feeling deep down inside. However, she does respect Annie when she does not want to share. She is willing to wait until Annie is ready to take her into her confidence. I think that teaches a child that their feelings matter. Naturally I could be wrong about that.

NONNIE: I think it is sad when a father has to add criticism to every loving comment he makes to his child/children. It certainly sends a mixed message to the child. Annie felt like she didn't measure up in Sean's eyes and kept trying to remedy that.

HARRIET: You asked if Sean deserves the love he gets from his children. I don't think he is a dependable source of love. He doesn't seem to really try very hard to understand his children or his wife.

SCRAWLER: I don't know that Annie always saw Sean for who he was but by the time the book starts she has been disillusioned by overhearing one of Sean's phone calls. Bay really wanted Sean to be what she thought he was when they married. His disappearance really woke Bay up about who Sean really was.

CAT WOMAN: One of the things I like best about Luanne Rice's writing is the clarity and depth she puts into describing the relationships between the different characters. I never had a sister or a friend as close as Bay and Tara. I think I would have liked that. I watched my mother with 2 of her sisters. They were very close all their lives and I envied that closeness.

At one point in the book, as Bay learns more and more unbelievable things about her husband's honesty, she cries out: "I never knew Sean at all!"

Do you believe two people can live together as husband and wife for years, and not really know each other?

Did Bay miss the signals where Sean was concerned...or was Sean adept at giving people the impression that he was more honest and trustworthy than he actually was?

Let's talk about the facts that Sean's family learned about his life after his disappearance.

Could you find it forgiveable to use, without permission, money that belongs to someone else...as long as it is returned within a short time? Do you believe Sean was involved in a kind of self-deception?

Harriet

6) I think Sean was genuinely happy when Annie gave him the model rowing dory that she carved for him. I think he was as sinere as Sean could possibly be.

7) I think Sean thought he was a good father. He wanted his family to be the "perfect" family and that meant telling Annie that she was heavy and she should be more of an athlete. I would think that he probably heard these same things from his own father. To Sean being an athlete and being competitive was one of the things important to him.

I do believe that you can live with another person and never really know that person until something like the disappeance of Sean occurs.

I think Sean was very adept at pulling wool the over their eyes and appearing to be more honest and trustworthy than he actually was. But I don't think he thought any of those things that he did were wrong at this point, because to him it was just competion - something that was truly important to him.

If we lived in a black-and-white world taking anything without permission would be wrong. But we live in a gray world and I would have to know more of why Sean or anyone else would take the money. It seems to me that Sean took the money becuse he was in competion and thought of it more of a game. He probably thought that it wouldn't hurt anyone - after all these people had plenty of money - they wouldn't miss it. But what if the reason Sean took the money was because one of the kids needed surgery or because they had no money to pay the rent or buy food - would this change our perception of Sean?

Marjorie, I do understand that change is very difficult. I have to admire you for choosing to stay with a controlling husband for the sake of the children. It shows that you have patience. I imagine your kids really appreciated it. I'm glad you've been able to make a happy new life now.

Annie's fantasies about her Dad are fairly typical for a girl her age. She wants his approval so she imagines herself slim and athletic and then he will compliment her and perhaps LOVE her more. Sean is looking for the "perfect" family--one that displays glamor, athletic ability, beauty, and things that people who are higher on the social scale have. He hates his background, I think deep down is self-loathing, and his escapades are attempts at moving up in the world.

Bay is a good mother in many ways. She is nurturing and loving. I think, however, that she tries too hard to protect the children from Sean's misbehavior. I don't mean that she should have run him down or fostered disrespect for him, but somehow, she should have impressed upon them that taking the money and engaging in affairs hurt her and is not good behavior. In some ways, I think Billy, especially, is in denial about his Dad.

I really don't understand how the children "adored" a Dad who wasn't there for them very much and who treated their mother so poorly. I don't think, however, that they were old enough to really understand the implications of Sean's cheating his banking customers out of their funds. It was hard for Bay to understand, doubly hard for the kids. Sue

I was surprised when Bay told her children that Sean was murdered. I wonder what her reason was for that, doesn't sound to me that she wanted to protect them. That must have really frightened the children.

So many of you zeroed in on the complex father/daughter relationship between Sean and Annie. You were absolutely great with the insights you provided.

I loved this from SCRAWLER.

"I think one reason that Annie wanted her father's approval was because he was so negative toward her. She probably thought it was her fault."

And this from CAT WOMAN.

"Although we don't see Sean, we feel his ambivalent relationship with his oldest child. He wants to love her, even does love her at times, but then she doesn't measure up to the child he imagined so he hurts her."

And from MARJORIE.

"Annie felt like she didn't measure up in Sean's eyes and kept trying to remedy that."

SUE commented:

"She (Annie) wants his approval so she imagines herself slim and athletic and then he will compliment her and perhaps LOVE her more."

WOW!

As I read about Sean's putdowns, I pictured a weak and insecure man who, as so many of you pointed out, wanted a perfect family...because he thought a pretty trophy wife and good looking children would enhance his own image as a competent and successful man to the outside world. I hated that he phrased his putdowns as if they were lovingly meant. How much more difficult that made it for Annie!

Did he really see his family members as flesh and blood individuals? Or were they merely personal adornments to him, appendages that represented his own success?

ANNIE3, good point that the children must have been doubly distressed to learn that Sean had been murdered. Do you feel there was some way that Bay could have protected them from the newspapermen and detectives, or the stories in the press? Do you feel it was preferable for them to learn this terrible news from their mother or from outsiders?

Like you, I wish they COULD have been protected from such devastating news.

THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR PARTICIPATION!

More questions coming in the heading soon.

Harriet

SCRAWLER, you brought up an intriguing and thought provoking question that I would like to open to everyone for comments. You asked:

But what if the reason Sean took the money was because one of the kids needed surgery or because they had no money to pay the rent or buy food - would this change our perception of Sean?"

I'd love some opinions from the rest of you. Does extreme need justify non-violent crime? To tell you the truth, I'm not sure myself. One hundred fifty years ago, in Victorian England, poverty-struck children were getting stiff criminal penalties for the theft of food. Was that all right?

Yet, people have different definitions of extreme need. The teenager "needs" name brand sneakers? The family "needs" money for medicine?

What do you all think?

Harriet

I have added SCRAWLER's question to the heading as Question #8 and put 2 more questions up. Please notice that you can go back to Previous Questions by simply clicking the link in the heading.

My schedule this morning is all mixed up because I woke up so late after reading very late last night. I will be back in a little while.

I think it is easy and quite common for people to live together and not really know each other. They get caught up in daily life and don't have time or MAKE time to really talk to one another. Could Bay have protected her children from knowing about Sean's murder? I doubt it. This is a small town. People talk. It would be far worse for them to learn of their father's murder from someone at the playground or overhearing gossip in the grocery store than to hear it from their mother. I don't really think there is justification for taking money that belongs to others whatever the reason.

9) To me the relationship between Tara and FBI agent Joe Holmes seemed unbelievable. I doubt that the agent would really care that Tara warned him. He was trying to his job and conceivably probably wouldn't gotten involved with Tara on any level except as a suspect or witness to a potential crime.

I thought although Tara was a good friend, I also thought she was being over-protective of Bay. Perhaps Bay's personality needed Tara's protection, but not when it came to investigating Sean's murder.

9) I think she was right to tell the children about their father's murder. I think children know more than parents give them credit for. But having said that, I also think it depends on how old the children are when you tell them. I'm sure the children were just as suprised as Bay when she heard the news. Unfortunately, in today's world children as well as adults get a steady diet of crime almost every time they turn the TV on or read a newspaper. It would be very difficult to keep Sean's murder a secret from the family.

I like your question about what effect motivation on the seriousness of embezzlement. I do not think that any motivation would justify his actions. In order to be an embezzler someone has to be employed. If there were a problem paying medical bills or meeting regular expenses, the first thing to do would be to talk to the employer and ask for assistance. Sean was the VP of a bank and, therefore, in a position of trust in the community. He certainly didn't deserve that trust or that position.

In last post you said: "To me the relationship between Tara and FBI agent Joe Holmes seemed unbelievable. I doubt that the agent would really care that Tara warned him." I am glad you pointed that out. I have a view of Joe and Tara's relationship based on reading the entire book a couple of times. I forgot that at that point in the story Joe had no reason to see Tara as anything but a hinderance.

I am not sure I agree that Tara was overprotecive of Bay. She was definitely showing Joe that Bay wasn't without support. I think probably women who are "alone" as Bay was when Sean left, are treated/feel as if there is no one in their corner. That would be especially true with the police investigating Sean's disappearance.

SUE: Your comment "I really don't understand how the children "adored" a Dad who wasn't there for them very much and who treated their mother so poorly." really works for me. I think Annie is the only one of the children that realized how Sean was cheating on Bay. Since she was keeping that secret from Bay, I would guess she wasn't telling Billy or Peg either. Annie was trying to keep her family intact I think. At school she had probably heard that divorce breaks up families over things like infidelity.

If we were taking a poll, my vote would go to "Bay must be the one to tell the children about the murder." I go along with those of you who mentioned how terrible it would be for the children to just "happen" on that knowledge without preparation.

I agree that Bay was the one to tell the children of the murder. If they had heard it inadvertently somewhere else, as Annie overheard the conversation between Sean and the woman, they would have been even more traumatized.

I think the remark Tara made to Joe about being Bay's concigliere (sp?) is made to give us a hint of future communication between Tara and Joe. We know that Tara is the granddaughter of a good cop and she is warning Joe for 2 reasons. One, of course, is to protect her friend, and the second is to let him know that she is familiar with police procedure and he must not step over the line with his suspicions.

Bay and the children are in such a state of shock and disbelief about the embezzlement. They loved and trusted Sean (even though Bay knew he was cheating on her). The embezzlement seems so far fetched and foreign to his nature as they knew him, plus they had seen no evidence of increased income. I don't think Tara was quite so surprised as she had very bad feelings about his infidelity. Sue

I agree it was surprising that Bay saw no evidence of increased income. So what do you think Sean was doing with the money?

I've read ahead, Cat Woman, but I won't tell you. There was a bit of a twist to it, though. Sue

CAT WOMAN: I imagine anyone who is embezzling funds would do their best to have no obvious "new money" for fear the embezzlement would come to light.

A question was asked earlier about whether it is possible to be married for a long time and not "know" your mate. Somehow, even if 2 people are together all the time, I don't think you can know everything about another person unless they want to tell you. All the time that Sean was at work and Bay was busy with her home and her children provided the opportunity for secret behavior.

I would like to think that 2 people can really know each other. But I wonder.

I have added 2 questions to the heading and removed the first two that were there. The first 5 questions can be found in the Previous Questions link.

Under some circumstances I agree with Augusta, but I don't think it's always true.
I understand why you all feel Bay should have told her children their father was murdered, but I still think it was too much too soon. After all, they were young and shielded from others for a while. Also, it was only thought to be a possibility. I would have shielded my children from that sordid news, they are much to young to bear such burdons.

I hesitate commenting as I know the outcome. I will talk a little about Annie and Eliza. Eliza is a very troubled little girl. She has witnessed so much pain. Her only way of couping is to hurt herself. I know that this happens to a lot of children in real life. Its so sad and disturbing. Annie is a good friend and I believe she will be a help to Eliza.

Augusta makes a good point. As a senior citzen I have witnessed this condescending attitude toward people of my age.They think because we have grown older our minds and intelligence has gone astray. What could we possibly know about life and love or for that matter anything other than where to go for early bird specials, where to get walkers and wheel chairs, and whats on the tv.

Terri

I love it, I love it, I love, love, love it! We're all talking TO each other! For any new bookies among us, that is the very nicest gift that participants can bring to a discussion. It does add so much!

Please, do read each other's posts and respond whenever possible. What a wonderful group you are!

Tara is a feisty girl, but I agree with SCRAWLER and MARJORIE. I doubt that any real FBI agent would be deterred by a warning from a friend - even if that friend is a lovely colleen with flashing eyes. Although those passages of the book don't hold together perfectly, life is too short to get worried about minor points in an otherwise delightful story.

Tara does succeed in explaining the closeness of her relationship with Bay to Joe, and, as SUE pointed out, this lovely lass from a police family makes a strong impression on Joe. We have the beginnings of a romance.

Here's a few more details to ponder on.

Why did Bay visit Dan Connolly for the first time in twenty five years in the terrible days after Sean's disappearance?

How did the children react to the funeral? As terrible as the death of a parent may be, do you feel the conditions surrounding his death made things worse for his children? If so, what instances can you think of to indicate this?

Is it possible to both love and hate someone at the same time? For Bay? For the children as well?

Harriet

NONNIE, what a thoughtful and touching post. Please don't hesitate to comment even if you've finished the book.

Our posts just crossed because I spent time writing and revising mine off-line and just got here.

Perhaps you, like I, go through many emotions and theories about the characters as you read. Please...share with us whatever you may have felt when you read parts of the book the first time. It is possible to respond without going into the second part of the book prematurely.

I know that my own feelings about many of the characters changed as the book progressed. There were people in the book that I liked until I grew to know them better.

Remember everyone, on Friday, July 23, we begin to discuss the second half of the book. All secrets will be revealed and NOTHING is off limits to talk about then.

NONNIE, we enjoy your posts so...please comment often.

Harriet

It IS an interesting discussion Harriet - Thank you!

Nonnie, I know what you mean abut being hesitant to post, because I finished the book this weekend, and I'm so nervous about giving away the ending, that I'm a little worried about what to say.

I will say, though that I think Bay is a good mother, and her children are good, sensible, sensitive, strong kids. So Bay and Sean must have done SOMETHING right. Together.

Judy2

JUDY2, please read my post #82 as it applies to you as well. Marjorie and I thank you, and we value and want your comments.

There are those who feel that they like to read ONLY the assigned pages for each week because of the feelings that you and NONNIE brought up. Others love to finish the book and have an overview, and they still continue to comment. It's really a matter of individual preference. You'll see...it IS possible to comment on each individual situation as if you just read it, and it's fun too.

REMEMBER, MANY OF THE QUESTIONS IN THE HEADING CAN BE DISCUSSED WITH NO PROBLEMS CAUSED BY ADVANCE KNOWLEDGE OF THE BOOK.

Talk away, ladies. We're all ears!

Harriet

Today there was a "Focus on the Family" column by that conservative psychologist, Dr. Dobson. Someone had asked a question about why women stay in a bad marriage so long. His answer was that it was often economic and went on to quote statistics about how many single mothers are in the poverty guidelines. I think this is some of Bay's reason for staying with Sean despite his adultery. She didn't think she could support the children. She hadn't thought that she might be able to garden. That was a nice addition to the plot, I thought, to be offered a gardening job. I liked the interplay between Bay and Augusta when Augusta didn't like/understand the reason for Bay's severe pruning. I felt good when Augusta invited Bay back later to continue as gardener.

I can understand Augusta's attitude about society. Elderly people, especially those who are needing help to get around, are frequently the targets of scam artists. We can always hope it won't happen to us, but we need to be alert to that kind of behavior on the part of our financial advisors, banks, sometimes our closest relatives, etc. Sue

11. Annie and Eliza were drawn to each other because of what hapened to each of their parents. But Eliza actually saw her mother killed and this probably made her the weakest of the two. Because Annie was mentally stronger than Eliza I think this relationship worked for the better, but if Eliza had been stronger than their relationship could have had devastating results. Such as Annie following in Eliza's footsteps and "cutting herself". I thought it was interesting in that Annie found out Eliza was cutting herself through Billy and at first she doesn't really believe him.

12. I would agree that there are those who are bent on taking advantage of the "old", but I'd like to think that the average person will respect the old and not patronize us. I've meet a few "patronizing" individuals in my day and I think you are responsible to put these folks in there place as soon as possible. Nobody should be disrespectful toward their elders no matter how old they themselves get. But I also think its up to the elderly to be able to think for themselves, or at least have someone reliable to do it for us.

Scrawler, have you ever been to a doctor who is barely out of diapers who addresses you by your first name? My husband was seeing a new eye doctor who accepted our insurance so I made an appointment also. This young man called my husband by our last name and spoke quite respectfully to him, but called me Susan without asking permission. He did grow up in a northern state and perhaps didn't realize that down here anyone at least ten years older would be called Sir or Ma'am and would not call an older person by the first name unless asked to do so. I say ma'am and sir to all those older than me and to younger ones if they are in a position higher, for example as a teacher I always addressed the younger principal that way. Sue

Thank you all for such insightful comments. It is fascinating to me to come to a discussion and learn so much more about a book I thought I completely understood.

The header now has the questions that HARRIET asked in her post earlier today. Some of the earlier questions have been moved from the heading to the Previous Questions link so that the heading won't be too long.

SUE: I, also, thought it was wonderful that Bay realized she could use gardening, something she loved so much, to generate the income she needed to support her family.

SCRAWLER: When you said "Annie and Eliza were drawn to each other because of what hapened to each of their parents. But Eliza actually saw her mother killed and this probably made her the weakest of the two. Because Annie was mentally stronger than Eliza I think this relationship worked for the better...", you gave me something new to think about.

I liked Augusta a lot. When she started to cry (the first time Bay did the severe garden pruning of those bushes Augusta's husband planted) Bay more or less panicked and jumped to the wrong conclusion. I was surprised that when Bay didn't understand, she didn't try to reach out to her in sympathy, as she seemed to be so ready to do towards others throughout the book.

Judy2

My favorite part of the book was the relationship between Bay and Tara.

If you have been raised as a only child its so neat to hear about friends like they have been. A heard once that a best friend is a luxury you allow yourself and that seems to be true. It takes a lot of commitment to be there for a person like Tara was for Bay.

SUE, that was quite a story about your eye doctor. He called your husband by his last name, and called you Susan? It always surprises me that some people can't see the difference between the pretense of intimacy and the genuine thing. Was it a gender based reaction, do you think?

Did you say anything to him about the difference in the ways he addressed you and your husband? It would have been a difficult position for you because it's not always easy to find a doctor who accepts ones insurance plan, and your husband had already established a relationship with him.

Tough situation.

I get annoyed when a telemarketer calls our house (Yes, it still occasionally happens, even with Do Not Call lists!) and asks for either my husband or myself by our first name. I usually answer, referring to myself by my last name. The telemarketers instantly begin their sell anyway, still using my first name, until I quickly terminate the call. My gosh, but they're irritating, particularly when they try to speak to me as if we're old friends!

JUDY 2, maybe Bay's first meeting with Augusta nearly wiped her out with feelings of guilt? I guess she was too overwhelmed to reach out to her new employer? When Augusta brought up the subject of Sean's dishonesty and betrayal of trust, Bay couldn't contradict her and was reduced to tears herself. She was distraught enough to become clumsy and have an accident.

In the second part of the book we'll learn that even though Augusta was talking about Sean, she may have had another person in mind who had also betrayed her trust. Let's keep that in mind, because it'll be interesting to discuss when we get to that part of the of the book. It may be that Augusta felt more kinship for Bay than she could ever imagine.

JUDY L., I guess many of us would like the luxury of a true and trustworthy friend. I've been moved by how many of us have agreed on that point. So many of us long for the comfort of a dear friend.

I think we... well I guess I should talk for myself,...I would want someone who tried to see things through my eyes, someone who is more forgiving than critical. But goodness, I'd sure have to try to work hard to live up to the love and trust of that friend, wouldn't I?

Everyone, don't forget to look in the heading and see if anything there excites a creative urge to write an opinion.

Hi HATS! We miss you.

Harriet

I think we've come a long way since I had my first job (1962) and I wore navy blue and black dresses, and hats and gloves to work. Now I can walk into almost every place of business and find young clerks dressed in halter tops and shorts. I agree with you not all changes seem to be for the best. And my daughter still doesn't believe me when I tell her that back when I started work, I would stand every time my supervisor walked into the room. Showing respect to our elders, Sue, was just a part of who were than.

13. Bay finds a copy of a letter she had written to Dan Connolly on Sean's boat and this makes her wonder why Sean had it and adventually goes to Dan to find out.

14. Death for anyone is difficult at best, but more so for children. I think it is important for a child to accept death at an early age. That's why I think pets are so important to children. Not only does the pet give the child something to love and care for, but usually the pet dies before the child and thus also teaches them to accept death as part of life. But a violent death is extremely difficult both for adults and children, because in a violent death the family never really has the opportunity to say good-bye to the person that dies. In many cases they don't have closure.

15. Oh, I think it is very possible to love and hate someone at the same time for Bay as well as for the children. I think that it's part of human nature because I believe that people are not good or evil, but both. And it is this dual partnership that swings back and forth almost on a daily basis. I also believe that there will always be evil, and in order for good to exist it needs evil to fight against. And sometimes we win and sometimes we don't and thus we can be both good and bad and be the same person.

Scrawler, your thoughts on the differences within a person were very true. I think it's possible to love and hate someone at the same time or to swing back and forth between those two feelings, especially within families, when we see the best and the worst of others on a daily basis. No one is perfect, and few--probably no--marriages turn out completely "happily ever after." Of course, Bay's marriage was down at the low end of the continuum, but even so, she must have had some good memories, too.

JUDY2: Reading the scene in Chapter 14 between Augusta and Bay about the pruning of the bushes it didn't occur to me that Bay could have reached out to Augusta in support. Good insight. It was difficult for Bay to go and see Dan after all this time.

SCRAWLER: Bay was certainly concerned about the letter she found on Sean's boat. Why and how did Sean get that letter she wrote to Dan? She also had the fax that came into the office at home about the boat that Dan was building for Sean. Sean was a motorboat person and Dan built wooden boats. What was going on?

CAT WOMAN: I suspect you are correct that Bay has some good memories of her marriage to Sean. In the middle of a crisis for me it is difficult to think of the good things rather than things that feed into the current concerns.

I have moved Question 11 to Previous Questions and added Question 16 to the heading tonight.

That's an interesting point about children learning to handle loss and death by their experiences with pets. I do think that kids can handle it better than some grownups think they can. Probably because children usually believe that they're rather immortal - that their own death is, at most, a very, very distant myth.

Maybe the thing that made Sean's death worse for his children would be that they must have thought Dad TRICKED them. He turned out to be a thief, and abandoned them (by dying) to deal with the mess he left behind. Their only other choice would have been to not believe the real evidence against him as it unfolds. In either case, the reality upon which they based their lives suddenly shifts, leaving them off balance and afraid, as well as sad and angry.

As far as loving and hating a person at the same time - the hard part is recognizing it, and learning to live with it. Bay, I think, tried hard to assure her kids that conflicting emotions are normal and ok.

Judy2

WHAT WONDERFUL, PERCEPTIVE POSTS I'M READING TODAY. I love thinking about the points you all brought up.

SCRAWLER wrote about death:

"But a violent death is extremely difficult both for adults and children, because in a violent death the family never really has the opportunity to say good-bye to the person that dies."

Great point.

I'd also add that I've always thought that most children have an instinctive optimism...a belief that things will turn out for the best, and that their Mom and Dad will watch out for them. Maybe this is a valuable shield for a youngster early in life to help him face problems.

But doesn't a violent death, particularly of a parent, shatter that innocent trust in life? Annie, Billy and Pegeen now know irrefutably that things don't always come out all right, and sometimes life can spin wildly out of control. Seems to me that's a sad, cynical concept for a child to learn early in life?

The children noticed that very few people came to their house to pay a condolence call after the funeral. Billy, in particular, understood that this was a reflection of the way Sean's former friends felt about his crimes. His father was no longer an admired man, and even though his children suffered terrible grief , others would not sympathize with them in the same way they might have if Sean had not done wrong.

Wasn't it Sean's fault that his children were so much more isolated in their grief than they might have been under other circumstances? Very few people could sympathize wholeheartedly with this little family and talk about what a wonderful man Sean had been. And isn't that what the children wanted to hear?

CAT WOMAN, I loved your observations about seesawing emotions in families.

"I think it's possible to love and hate someone at the same time or to swing back and forth between those two feelings, especially within families, when we see the best and the worst of others on a daily basis."

I agree that emotions can run high between family members. It hurts more when a parent or a sibling rejects. NONNIE pointed out the long lasting effects of parental coolness in a previous post. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we all tried to say more loving words to each other?

MARJORIE, how right you are! I think it takes an effort of will keep perspective in a crisis. It seems that Bay and the children are doing their best to adjust to their new, unhappy reality.

JUDY2, what a great observation.

"He (Sean) turned out to be a thief, and abandoned them (by dying) to deal with the mess he left behind.

Isn't that EXACTLY what Sean did? At the funeral, Tara, who had some seesawing emotions toward Sean herself, wished that she could give Sean a big shake for the tangle he had created. She understood the tension that Bay and the children were undergoing.

Harriet

16) The phone call to Dan is very curious to me. It's like Dan was supposed to know something, but he really didn't, yet the woman thought he did. Was she fishing to find our what Sean told Dan?

There's also the problem of why Sean had Bay's letter to Dan. And why Sean went to Dan concerning a wooden boat, when Sean really didn't go in for wooden boats.

I think the one thing that was chilling for me was when Bay rode her bicycle past the men in the dark car. I've had that happen to me. The FBI was looking for my brother-in-law and they sent a big black car to follow me around and park outside my house. My husband had one following him too. I had two small children than and I lost my temper and went out one day and knocked on the car's window and told them that if they had something to ask me to please come into the house and ask it and stop harassing me and my family. It still gives me the chills when I think about it. Just having them there was making me nuts. I think I scared them when I knocked on the window and they sheepishly came into the house where I told them I hadn't seen my brother-in-law for over 15 years. I gave them his last address etc and told them where to find my mother-in-law. After they thanked me, they went away and I never saw them again. I know law enforcement has to do their job, but boy there's got to be an easier way to do it.

I have moved Question 12 to Previous Questions and added Questions 17-19 to the heading. It appears that there has already been some discussion about Question 18. The ones I keep adding to the heading either come from posts here or were set up in advance of the discussion.

SCRAWLER: I admire your courage in confronting the plain clothes men that were following you and your family around.

Just as SCRAWLER said, I, too, found the phone call from the woman to Dan very strange. I am not sure that it was even explained clearly by the end of the book. Maybe when we get to that point someone will be able to shed more light on it.

HARRIET: I found Billy's reaction to the people who stayed away from the house after the funeral touching. I think you were correct when you said that "Billy, in particular, understood that this was a reflection of the way Sean's former friends felt about his crimes." Prior to that point I had thought Annie had more of a handle on what was going on. Billy surprised me in that section.

JUDY2: I found it interesting that you mentioned that children who have pets have a better time understanding death than those who do not have pets. A thought provoking comment.

Peg didn't want to leave her Dad behind always in the summer. Never moving along to the new seasons. Too shocking, too final, too harsh a reality. I have known those feelings. It brings such a profound sadness and finality.

Well, thanks for giving me credit for that observation about kids and pets, Marjorie! I'd like to pretend I'm that perceptive, but actually, I was referring to Scrawler's post #92.

Annie3, your understanding of why Pegeen didn't want summer to end is so sensitive - I agree with you. When you love someone, it's so heart breaking to move along to the next season without him/her.

Judy2

I agree with both of you about Peg. Losing her father was such a profound change, and with summer ending she'll have more changes to face--new teacher, new demands, even the sight of leaves turning and the signs of winter coming on are difficult. Perhaps in the long run, getting back into the school routine will be good for her...but it was also be a final goodbye to her dad. Life will go on without him. I rather enjoyed Tara and Joe Holmes. I got the feeling that Joe was lonely and in some ways, so was she. They had Tara's grandfather being a policeman to give them some common ground. They also had a less complicated relationship than Bay and Danny, with less baggage.

My goodness, SCRAWLER, there must have been passages in this book where you really understood just how Bay felt. I sympathize with your past ordeal and, like MARJORIE, I admire the forthright way in which you handled it. Good for you!

Your husband must have had very complex emotions about his brother, even if they had not seen each other for quite a while, and possibly that may have added to both of your difficulties. It took a lot of courage to tackle the problem as decisively as you did.

Thanks, ANNIE3. As you pointed out, the McCabe family is entering into a new kind of life without their father and husband. The children were able to love their father and grieve for him in a simpler and more sincere way than Bay. They would miss him profoundly, particularly at holidays and family events. You made an important point.

CAT WOMAN, thanks for that interesting angle to Tara and Joe's romance and, by implication, about Bay and Dan. Bay and Dan DO bring a lot of baggage to their relationship. They each have primary responsibilities to their traumatized children, and each has memories, both good and bad, of a prior marriage.

---

I'm excited that we'll begin the second half of the book tomorrow because I've been having the HARDEST time staying away from some of the culminating answers to Sean's death.

I've got to admit that this book, in particular, teases us with a whole set of clues in the earlier chapters that don't get cleared up until near the end of the book. Luanne Rice foreshadows a lot of her plot developments early, and so subtly that, until I finished reading, I was still guessing about the motives of some of the characters.

Please feel free to bring up any remaining things you want to discuss in the first part of the book and then tomorrow, onward we go.

THIS COMING WEEK WILL BE FUN. IF YOU HAVEN'T FINISHED THE BOOK YET, GIVE YOURSELF A TREAT. SOME OF THE ANSWERS TO THE MYSTERIES MAY SURPRISE YOU.

Harriet

I agree with everyone about the reason Peg did not want summer to end. I have the feeling that Peg was slighted a little in this story. Not much was said about what was going on for her in all of this. Perhaps it is just that she was the youngest.

HARRIET: I agree with CAT WOMAN that Tara and Joe don't have the baggage that Bay and Dan do. I would add the memories of their teenage years to what you said about their responsibilities to their "traumatized daughters" and memories of previous marriages. I seem to remember that Bay knew Sean longer than she knew Dan but was attracted to Dan in a different, stronger way.

17. I think she was scared of starting school where her classmates would ask about what happened to her father. Where they lived she was isolated from others and she had her brother and sister who understood how she felt, but when she went back to school she would have to face teachers and classmates.

I can remember once I had a classmate who gave her address as Alcatraz. Everybody thought her father was there because he had done something wrong. Only a few of us knew that he was the warden, but I still remember how some of the classmates would look at her funny and talk about her. She always laughed about it and once when I spent the night there, I too got to tell everyone that I'd been at Alcatraz. This happened in the early 1950s.

18. I don't think Augusta Renwick really trusted Bay because of what Sean did to her. And I think Bay felt funny working for someone her husband had taken advantage of. If only they had been able to talk everything out before Bay started work there. I also think that Augusta wasn't seeing Bay for who see was, but rather the image of Sean's wife. Bay was always her own person no matter who Sean was. Besides Sean never really understood Bay. Imagine wanting to get a gardner when he had the best gardner in town in Bay.

19. I think they both have backgrounds in law enforcement which contributes toward their relationship. I still say that this relationship between Tara and Joe Holmes is a little unbelieveable for me. Now if they had met say at the end of the book after everything was over and maybe he asked about Bay and the kids and than one thing led to another, it would be more believeable to me.

MARJORIE and HARRIETT,

I am sorry I promised too much.

Since I am preparing to co-lead with PEDLN and am also involved in the Paris 1919 folder, not to mention the deadlines in WREX, I simply don't have the time to read along with you and carefully weigh all your wonderful questions.

I did speak with a dear friend, the leader of our live local book group, who said she is "dying for a good romance". I immediately suggested The Perfect Summer, copied your excellent questions as a guideline for her and took the book over to her.

Unfortunately she is not computerized. She bought a new typewriter last year - a manual (!) one. I have been trying- but...

I was interested in the earlier messages about Pegeen not wanting to go back to school, but I am most in agreement with Scrawler's #104. As a teacher I've had occasion to observe children who've lost a parent over the summer or in previous places and they hate to have remarks made about their parents. I've seen fights started from the phrase "Your Mama" which is fairly common in the African American culture here. The child who has lost a parent is terribly upset and does not want any reference to HER deceased mama, although that was not always the original intent of the insult. Often the child giving the insult is not even aware that the insulted child has lost a parent. Pegeen is probably imagining questions about Sean that will be difficult to answer. She feels safe at home with Bay and doesn't want to get into a situation which makes her feel more uncomfortable, defensive, and sadder. Sue

SCRAWLER and SUE: I hadn't thought about Peg's concern with what her classmates would say/think about her father's behavior and death. The end of summer definitely means the end of her being "protected" by her family. Now she is going to have to go out in the bigger world where other people will judge her and her family.

TRAUDE: Thank you for promoting The Perfect Summer with your friend, even though she won't be online with us. Still, that is wonderful outreach. Maybe you can enjoy the book yourself when you have more time to read it.

If you notice in the heading, I have put a line through the first week's reading. We are now in the second half of the book. I kept the 3 questions I put up last night and added 2 new ones for the second half of the book. All the rest of the questions are in the Previous Questions link.

One of the great joys of a book discussion is sharing thoughts with other people and getting back, in response, new insights about our book. I want to thank you all for the variety of your interpretations on the characters, and your perceptiveness and insight. IT'S A PLEASURE TO READ AND LEARN FROM YOUR POSTS!

SCRAWLER, Thanks for the sad but true fact that you brought to our attention. Children CAN sometimes be cruel to each other and seize on any lever to torment a classmate. Peggy will need fortitude to adjust to the coming school year, and so will Billy and Annie.

Billy, who was his father's much-wanted son, had particularly idolized his father. It was he who had initially refused to believe in his father's crimes, and had begged his mother to "set all of the newspaper reporters straight" about what a good guy Sean was.

When Billy looks in the mirror in future years, and sees a face so similar to his father's, I wonder what he will feel? In happier days, Billy might have aspired to grow up and be just like his father? Now, what combination of love/hate, fear/shame, and secret worry about his OWN ethical predisposition might go through his mind?

Do you feel that Sean might be leaving a sad legacy to his look-alike son that will continue past his death?

TRAUDE, you would surely have added a bright light to our discussion of The Perfect Summer. Perhaps we can all join each other in some future book discussion. Thank you for taking the trouble to recommend this book to a friend. I wish you luck in getting your friend to consider computerizing her life.

SUE, from one retired teacher to another, you're certainly telling it like it is about the children you've taught, and you've told it with such insight and sympathy.

"Often the child giving the insult is not even aware that the insulted child has lost a parent."

We have to hope that no other child strikes out at Bay's three grieving youngsters with absolutely NO concept of the pain they're causing.

As MARJORIE pointed out so accurately:

"Now those children are going to have to go out in the bigger world where other people will judge her and her family."

---

Chapter 18 gives us a surprising new interpretation of Augusta's earlier unkind words to Bay.

SCRAWLER, you gave the most marvelous insight into the confrontation between Augusta and Bay on her first day as a gardener. It was exactly the same feelings I had when I read those passages, except you expressed it better than I could have. However our author has now thrown a fascinating curve into the plot. When Bay and Tara are later asked to visit Augusta and talk to her again, some new facts emerge.

Here's a few extra thoughts to consider.

How did Augusta Renwick feel about her marriage to her famous artist husband?

Do you all still feel that her primary emotions toward Bay were anger and contempt on their first meeting?

What relevance would the phrase "sisters-under-the-skin" have to Bay and Augusta?

Do you see any NEW interpretations to Augusta's declaration that she cannot bear to be taken advantage of?

Happy reading, everyone!

Harriet

20. I don't think it is very realistic to enter into any relationship because your partner is "wildly in love" with you. You can't touch love wih your huaman senses. Maybe in my teens or twenties i would have wanted someone who was "wildly in love" with me, but now I'm just looing for a soul mate. One who will accept me for who I am, warts and all.

Danny helped Bay get away from real life.

I don't think romance (the Hollywood type) will stay for very long in any relationship. I think both parties have to work at their relationship and I think each has to accept he other for who they really are. We live too much in the fancy world. I agree Danny did a good thing to bring Bay away from the real world for awhile, but sooner or later she'll have to return to that world.

21. Sean McCabe was a charmer and con-artist. He was in competition - everything was a game to him. He didn't want Danny's wife in a romantic way; he was interested in the money his relationship with her would bring him from the Eliza Day Trust Fund.

I was rereading the part in Chapter 18 about Bay and Dan going sailing. Dan planned the sail so that he would be able to show Bay the full moon. Dan told Bay that she taught him to look for magic. Bay found the sail quite a nice escape from all that had been happening in her life. She was isolated out on the water and could forget her worries for a little while.

I have moved all questions on the first 17 chapters into Previous Questions and added to the heading the questions HARRIET asked in her post.

22. I think Sean's son has to put behind him what his father has done and live his own life. The wonderful thing about life is that it makes no different who are parents were; it is up to the individual to live the best life they can based on what they accomplish.

23. I think Augusta Renwick loved her famous husband, but I also think she knew the risks that loving and staying with a man like her husband can have.

24. I don't think she ever really was angry with Bay. I think she was angry with Sean, but this emotion ran over to Bay until Bay could prove herself that she was her own person.

25. Both Bay and Augusta had husbands that tended for whatever reasons to have the "wanderlust". Although they lived completely different lives they were nevertheless sisters-under-the-skin.

26. You could interprete the Augusta declaration that she cannot bear to be taken advantage of in many different ways. First of all and not the least was financial. No matter what people think the rich really do work for their money. But I think Augusta's declaration refers more to a personal issue that she had of other people taking advantage of her. Personally, I think everyone around Augusta took advantage of her. It wasn't until she met Bay that she found someone who not only had been taken advantage of, but was trying to go on with her life. I think in some ways Augusta not only understood Bay but also appreciated what Bay was doing.

SCRAWLER: You seem to get right to the heart of the matter with your answers to the questions in the header. I agree that Billy has to put behind him what his father has done and live his own life as you mentioned. I imagine that that will be a struggle for Billy. At least for a while. He is still young and he will be reminded of what happened by comments at school and in town for some time to come. Since Bay is such a fierce protector of her children, she may be able to help get past this.

I have moved question 20 to Previous Questions and added questions 27 and 28.

GINNY ANN: Are you back from your trip yet? Did you get a chance to read the book? Do you have any responses to any of the questions? We can certainly go back and revisit some of the earlier questions anytime.

I think Augusta is one of the more interesting characters in the book. I agree that her outburst to Bay on that first day is really her anger at Sean speaking. He took advantage of her financially, but even more important, I think, he betrayed her trust. His behavior toward her is an echo of her husband--his charm, his interest in other women, his callous taking advantage of Augusta. No matter how much she may have loved her husband, he hurt her, and so did Sean. Her comment to Bay about only marrying someone who is wildly in love with her seemed a bit strange. I imagine Sean was "wildly in love" with Bay when they married but perhaps more with her image--the sweet girl who would be the picture-perfect wife--than with the real person. Then he got bored with the Perfect Wife and Mother. So I think Augusta's advice is not what Bay should or will follow. Does "wildly in love" last? As a romance writer, I should say yes, but in the real world, love changes. Judith Viorst ends her book Forever Fifty with a poem called "The Pleasures of an Ordinary Life." Here's the last part:

Young fantasies of magic and of mystery
Are over. But they really can't compete
With what we've built together. A long history.
Connections that help render us complete.
Ties that hold and heal us. And the sweet,
Sweet pleasures of an ordinary life.

edited for format

I apologize to one and all. Last night I posted that I had changed the heading. I did change it on my computer. I forgot to change it here. Now it has been changed.

Luanne Rice wrote more about Augusta in some other books in this same "series." It was probably in the book titled Firefly Hill. It has been so long since I read the other books that I had to rely on this book for all my information about who she is.

I liked the poem you quoted from the book by Judith Viorst. It describes what I think a healthy long-term relationship would be.

FYI: I edited your post to add <br> at the end of each line of the poem. That put a break after each line and made the poem easier to read. Another way to break between each line would be to hit Enter twice. There will be more space between lines then.

What great analyses of Augusta!

"I think Augusta Renwick loved her famous husband, but I also think she knew the risks that loving and staying with a man like her husband can have." _ SCRAWLER

"...even more important, I think, he (Sean) betrayed Augusta's trust. His behavior toward her is an echo of her husband--his charm, his interest in other women, his callous taking advantage of Augusta." - CAT WOMAN

So perceptive, ladies!

I agree that Augusta reacted so strongly to Bay because the charming Sean had betrayed her trust, but...maybe, as CAT WOMAN pointed out, her anger was doubly fueled by her memory of her husband, Hugh. He too, had gained her love and trust, and then he betrayed Augusta, just as Sean had betrayed Bay, with his selfish greed and infidelity.

Maybe the shame and rejection that Bay was experiencing reminded Augusta too sharply of the pain she had felt with Hugh. When her anger spilled over, it temporarily drowned the sympathy she felt for a fellow sufferer?

Augusta surely understood what it felt like to be hurt by a charming liar that one still loved. She rebuked Bay for Sean's sins, but I wonder... maybe it was the sins of Hugh, her husband, that Augusta was really thinking about as well, when she blasted Sean?

She certainly regretted her anger to Bay, so Augusta opened up to the two younger women when she confided so much about her own life to them during their second meeting.

---

So much of Eliza's distress seems to stem from an incorrect belief that she bears some blame in the death of her mother. The child punishes herself constantly. She is so confused that she even accepts the notion that she hears imaginary voices? I wonder, ARE the voices imaginary?

I was very worried about the association between Annie and Eliza initially, but, as was pointed out earlier by SCRAWLER in her wonderful post #86, Annie was the less damaged of the two girls and this friendship influenced Eliza to behave more normally, rather than harming Annie. It did NOT seem to increase Annie's problems, thank goodness.

Anybody else want to comment on Augusta's theories about romantic love?

Harriet

27. I think Elza Connolly tried to get her father's attention by cuting herself and by not eating. I can't imagine what it would be like to witness the violent act of seeing her mother's death. At any age this would be a trumantic experience. Perhaps she felt that she should have done something to prevent this act. Any time anyone close to you is taken from you suddenly you feel that there should have been something more you should have done. Sometimes it takes years to recover from this and sometimes you really never do, but just like Sean's son has to put it behind him, so do all the characters have to put this seemly senseless act behind them. And depending on the inner deepth of the characters how they accomplish it will take time.

28. This is one part in the book which was a little over the top for me. It's not that I don't think that people don't hear voices sometimes, but I think this part was out of character for Eliza. Eliza struck outwardly at herself. Hearing voices denotes an inner reaction to problems, which Eliza didn't exhibit in the rest of her actions. Now if she started running around with a knife and trying to stab other people screaming that the voices in her head made her do this than it would be more in keeping with her character. I guess what I'm trying to say is that she was an action type character; rather than a thinker. That's why she related to Annie who was more of a thinker.

SRAWLER: Thank you for your thoughts about Eliza and the "evil voices" she heard. I wasn't sure what was going on either. I hadn't thought about hearing voices being something internal and cutting and not eating being something external. That is a great analysis. The cutting and not eating is something that Eliza is doing that her father can see. Eliza hids herself and covers herself up and, at the same time, she wants her father to know about the pain of her grief. Eliza does not tell anyone about the voices that she hears.

I added questions to the heading again and moved questions 21-24 to Previous Questions.

I don’t think I agree that Eliza is trying to get her father’s attention by cutting and by not eating. I certainly do agree that witnessing her mother’s death would be a traumatic experience, and I think she’s suffering enormously from Post Traumatic Stress. I think that PTS is somehow correlated to the onset of schizophrenia, which could account for hearing voices, and for other thinking disorders, such as paranoia about the evil ones. Even the urge to continue cutting and the inability to eat normally could be related to that disease. Schizophrenia is such a complicated and terrible disease.

Our author is building a network around Eliza's emotional stability and, like MARJORIE, SCRAWLER and JUDY2, I've been trying to puzzle it out.

Eliza says she is being followed by the "evil" people, but when she turns around, they're gone. Yet we all learn that she definitely IS endangered by two very real people as the story continues.

Is it possible that she really WAS being followed? But how could the two perpetrators know where this child would be at any particular time? So maybe she IS imagining things?

Eliza hears cruel voices at her bedroom window at home. "Your mother wants you," whispers the wind...or is it someone much more real? If the voices are real, is the intent to scare Eliza... or to encourage her toward suicide... or, at the very least, to cast strong doubt on the dependability of anything she says?

Even Dan, who loves Eliza so much, thinks that his child is either highly imaginative or delusional. Think how difficult this all must be for Eliza to bear...how it makes her doubt all of her own perceptions when she isn't believed.

But then, why would Dan ever think that his child would be endangered by cold-blooded murderers?

IS Eliza delusional? That point never became absolutely clear to me. Dan completely discounts scratch marks at the window where Eliza's voices had originated. If the threat is real, why didn't the murderers of Eliza's mother act against that child when she was alone in bed?

---

When Dan and FBI man Joe Holmes talk at Dan's boatworks, (chapter 19) Dan believes... but he doesn't say aloud to Joe...that Sean had been trying to set him up for some sort of fall?

What's that all about?

Did Sean really want to have a rowing dory built for Annie? Or was he looking for some excuse to make contact with Dan, the current trustee of the Eliza Day Fund?

Didn't Sean care about Annie at ALL? Was Annie's boat JUST an excuse to further his embezzlements?

At some point in the book the term "laundering money" is used. I wish someone would clarify that because I REALLY AND TRULY - no kidding - don't know what that means, and yet it becomes an important part of the plot. I'd really appreciate any explanation of what that term means.

---

Just what EXACTLY did Eliza see on the afternoon her mother died? Why did she fight with her mother, and how did her mother react?

Why did Eliza feel she had some responsibility in her mother's death?

What relationship did Eliza see between Sean and her mother, at an earlier time, that she chose to keep secret from her father?

---

There are a lot of loose ends to tie up into a bow. So many of the mysterious hints from the various parts of our earlier reading have to be meshed together.

So, what do YOU all think?

Harriet

Like most of you, I found Eliza's voices confusing. They didn't seem to go with her other emotional problems. And when we--sort of--find out that these were voices of real people trying to frighten her or drive her to suicide, I had even more of a problem. Wouldn't someone have noticed people lurking around the house?

I hadn't thought of schizophrenia for Eliza. Anorexia is often considered an attempt at control by the sufferer (I had a niece with anorexia so I've heard a lot about it), and that seemed to me to fit better with Eliza.

Yes, I thought it was foolish to let the girls go down to the beach alone. Annie's father has just been murdered. Wouldn't her mother be really protective of her children?

I think children whose parents die often feel as if it's their fault and since Eliza and her mother had been arguing and the mother got ougt of the car(which struck me as pretty odd) and then got hit by a van, of course Eliza would feel it was her fault. If only she hadn't argued with her mom, she'd still be alive.

I don't know about you but sometimes the adults don't show very good judgment, even those who are supposed to be "good" characters. I agree Elza's mother should not have gotten out of the car. Whatever the argument she should have stayed and discussed it with Eliza. Now if Eliza had gotten out of the car than that would have been within her character. I could than see a reason for her mother to also get out of the car - than the murders would have had two targets, but I can see her mother shoving Eliza aside to save her daughter at her own expense.

I can agree that Eliza had Post Traumatic Stress but I'm not sure about the onset of schizophrenia. Wasn't she being treated for her PTS? You'd think that if Eliza showed signs of schizophrenia that the doctors would have said something to Dan.

I don't think it was a good idea to let the girls go down to the "Little Beach" after dark. I know if I were Dan and Bay I would have wanted the girls close by me. I realize that the adults wanted to have some time together, but I think they showed poor judgment to let the girls go off alone especially when Sean's murderer hadn't been caught yet. As we've seen they came after Eliza in a very brutal way and they could have come after Annie as well. How do you think Bay and Dan would have felt if something had happened to the girls when they were doing their "thing"?

(I've just finished reading a James Patterson book where that scene is played out. One of the characters could have saved her female friend, but she was with a male friend and the result was that the female friend was killed.)

I had just dismissed my concerns about Eliza's mother leaving the car and walking across the road when I read that section. I didn't find a good reason for it either.

Sometimes it seemed to me that the killer(s) were in the right place for the story without having a logical reason to be there at that time. I guess I need to go check the book again and see exactly what I mean.

I read the book while on vacation and loved it. Sitting on the bay's beach reading the beginning was a real treat. Thanks for suggesting this book. It is my first by Rice, but it won't be my last.

I haven't read all the posts above, so sorry if I am repeating things, but how did Bay manage money wise over the winter? She had been so worried, got the job, winter came and she wasn't gardening so how did she get by?

As for Eliza's problems, I don't think she cut her self and didn't eat to control her Dad. It was PTS set off by seeing her Mom die violently. What I couldn't figure out is why her Mom was crossing the road. It was a bit too much an author's ply to move the story in a the direction it went.

GINNY ANN: It is so good to see you are back. I am delighted you enjoyed this book. I thought you would. I don't remember that anything was mentioned about how Bay managed her money over the winter. I think that she had enough through/or to September and she had the money she earned over the summer. I never questioned it.

Does anyone else remember anything about how Bay managed to have enough money to last all winter?

I have added Questions 31 and 32. Questions 25 and 26 went to Previous Questions.

WHAT A LOT OF NICE POSTS!

You all gave me fantastic reading this morning with your great posts! I love our discussion. You know...just for fun, I skimmed through a lot of our previous posts...and I really loved the way your comments enrich our book. Even where the plot lines may falter, all your observations and perceptions add color and dimension and interest to the book.

Most of you had some comment about Charlie Connolly getting out of the car and leaving Eliza all alone in there prior to being run down by a maroon van. I loved your insights and wanted to add my own.

I think Luanne Rice scattered her clues very widely in this book...possibly TOO widely. I'm not sure if this is her suspense technique or a flaw in the book. Maybe that judgement depends upon the reader. I'D BE INTERESTED IN YOUR OPINIONS ON THAT SUBJECT.

Maybe also, exhaustive scrutiny of a book is a difficult test for any author. I'm a real romance book addict, and too much reality can get in the way of my enjoyment of the plot. That's why I'm normally VERY accepting of any plot deviations. HOW DO YOU ALL FEEL ON THAT SUBJECT?

But anyway, because we're all involved in discussing this book, here, for your edification, is some widely dispersed, significant dialogue to consider.

In chapter 14, Dan describes his wife as "remote...elusive." She is "cool and reserved" reflecting her aristocratic background. In chapter 22, Dan elaborates. "Charlie hated upsets, and she would do anything to avoid them. Even walk away from the car, leave our daughter sitting there."

But what would have upset Charlie so much on the day of her death that she had to walk away from her daughter, rather than talk things out or face a problem?

In chapter 21, Eliza had revealed to Annie that she saw her mother and Sean McCabe kissing each other.

What effect would this have on Eliza's feelings toward her mother?

Dan had described Eliza as "happy and funny" and "always wanting to joke around" (chapter 22) until a few weeks before her mother's "accident," which was just about the time Eliza discovered the illicit relationship between her mother and Sean.

After that, do you believe Eliza might have been more likely to pick arguments and express anger toward a "remote, elusive" mother who would NEVER discuss openly what Eliza had seen?

Who knows what the actual argument was about on the day Charlie died! Possibly Eliza was tormenting her mother, venting her rage about ANY pretext...SOMETHING...ANYTHING. And how did her mother respond?

Charlie, typical for her personality, ran away from Eliza and her emotions... even though the child begged her to come back....and wound up under the wheels of a maroon van.

Eliza often accused her father of thinking that she was a murderer. But maybe Eliza was just saying what she thought about HERSELF?

WAS ELIZA RIGHT TO BLAME HERSELF FOR HER MOTHER'S DEATH?

WHAT IMPACT DID THIS HAVE ON ELIZA?

Harriet

CAT WOMAN. I admired this statement of yours.

"I think children whose parents die often feel as if it's their fault...if only she (Eliza) hadn't argued with her mom, she'd still be alive."

That's so perceptive. Don't children often think a variety of problems like divorce or parental abuse are somehow THEIR fault? Children are so vulnerable to the adults that they love, aren't they?

I agree with both SCRAWLER and CAT WOMAN that both Bay and Dan should have been more protective of their children, especially after Sean's murder. I couldn't understand how the children were allowed out to the beach after dark, no matter WHAT sentimental memories the adults had of that beach.

I was also kind of surprised when, way back at the beginning of the book, Annie was allowed to take off on her bike to look for Sean on his boat after dark. And this was BEFORE anyone knew that a murder had taken place.

MARJORIE, you blew me away with this truth.

"Sometimes it seemed to me that the killer(s) were in the right place for the story without having a logical reason to be there at that time."

I absolutely agree with you, and yet I STILL loved the book. Do the rest of you still feel that way?

GINNY ANN, hope you had a great time on your vacation. Reading on the beach sounds so, sooo nice. Please, stay with us. It's so good to see you.

Harriet

I had real problems with the plot near the end of the book. I'm going to mention them now because I'll be leaving for a New England vacation Friday so won't get to see the final posts. Anyway, you all may want to see if you agree or disagree with my feelings. (And by the way, regardless of how I felt about these contrivances, I still enjoyed the book because I liked the characters. I haven't read any of Rice's other books. Some writers are character writers, some are plot writers; she's obviously the first.) Here were my problems: The people who killed Eliza's mother also intended to go back and kill Eliza because she was a potential witness. Sean objected and so they killed him. But Eliza is still a possible witness, yet they wait nearly another full year before they decide to kill her. Conveniently, this gives Bay and Dan, Eliza and Annie time to develop their relationships.

When Bay and Dan are rushing around the house looking for Eliza, she stops and looks at the portrait of Dan's wife...and they talk about it--who painted it, when, etc. They notice the cabinet with the tea set is open and bend down to discuss the set. Would they do this? Would you do this if your suicidal daughter was missing? Then Dan realizes the silver cup, an important clue, is gone. It wasn't true to their emotions and it just seemed like a clue that came up at a too convenient time.

The message in Annie's boat, which she conveniently found in time to tie things up, seemed another contrived bit. I was glad for her to learn her father cared for her, but how she found it bothered me.

All books are contrived. If stories were like real life, they'd be unbelievably boring. Still, I tend to pick stories apart as a writer as well as a reader and I was sad that a book I liked so much disappointed me somewhat at the end.

Please accept my apology for not posting the past few days. I'm moving, actually will sleep in my house for the first time tonight, but still have things to pack here at the apartment. I'll try to catch up when I get back online. There have been some great posts and I've wanted to respond, but no time. Sorry. Sue

I agree that when Bay and Dan were hunting for Eliza and the tension was building the discovery of the missing cup slowed down the tension. But at the same time I kept wanting them to notice the open cabinet and see that the cup was missing.

One of the things I want to do is look up all the paintings of witches mentioned for the party. I should of had a pen and paper ready to make note of the many things I want to look up and learn more about.

I thought the ending was a little weak. I liked the mystery within a romance story, but thought towards the end the author couldn't make up her mind whether she was writing a romance story or a mystery story. If it had been a mystery story, the killers would have gotten to Eliza right after they killed Sean and not wait and see what happened. I didn't like Joe Holmes getting Tara involved in a possible dangerous position when he takes her to the party. I got the feeling things were begining to unravel about this point in the book. I still liked most of the characters in the book and I thought the plot line was good, but I think you have to make up your mind and either write it as a romance story with a little mystery (which in my opinion would have left out Eliza kidnapping and eveything that happened to her). Or you would write the book as a mystery story with a little romance involved and focused on the crime and the killers.

31. I don't think Sean ever saw Bay for who she really was. His comment early on about getting a gardner shows he was interested in the garden only as a show-case for the rest of the world to see. He didn't understand that Bay got extreme please out of gardening and if he'd had eyes like Amanda he'd have seen that Bay was very, very good at her work.

32. I'm not convinced that Sean tried to turn over a new leaf so to speak. I see this action by Sean as him starting to have second thoughts about what he did, but nothing more. It's not until the killers go after Eliza that he objected to what was happening. Perhaps this was the reason why that the killers waited to go after Eliza. Was Sean keeping them at bay?

HARRIET: You mentioned that early in the book Annie was allowed to take off on her bike to look for Sean on his boat after dark. I found the part you are talking about. Annie is frantic and runs out for her bike with Bay's calling to her to wait that they would drive down together. Bay doesn't immediately follow Annie. She calls Tara first. In that sense Bay didn't stop Annie from leaving.

CAT WOMAN: I have enjoyed your posts. Sorry you won't be here for the end of the discussion. I agree with you that many of the places where the plot is moved along seem a little contrived. I am not a writer and haven't got a clue how it could be done any better. I like Luanne Rice's books.

GINNY ANN: What a nice idea -- looking for pictures of the witches that were mentioned in connection with the costumes for the Halloween party.

SCRAWLER: From several of your posts I get the idea that you don't like Joe and Tara's relationship and would have preferred that that relationship did not take place at all. It seemed to me to be an uncomplicated relationship because all the history that Bay and Sean and Bay and Dan had didn't get in the way. Joe and Tara's relationship was a place where I didn't have to stay on guard as I was reading the book.

I have removed 3 questions from the heading and added 3 to the end of those that were left.

I searched for some links for some of the witches mentioned as being at the Halloween Party:

This is a place that is selling prints Incantation by Goya will be found partway down the page. The image is very dark.

I did not find Witch with Demonic Spirits by Ryckaert on Google.

This gallery is also selling prints The Love Potion by Evelyn de Morgan. I like this image better because there is more color.

This one takes a minute to load Circe Offering the Cup to Ulysses by John Waterhouse.

The Three Witches by Henry Fuseli.

The summer that the book is about is tragic, horrible, heartbreaking and violent. So I'm assuming that the title must refer to nostalgic memories of "The Perfect Summer" Bay and Dan first met.

Judy2

I was kind of disconcerted by the plot too. I expected that somehow Sean would turn out to be innocent as far as embezzling, and murdered because he discovered and was about to turn in the real thieves.

I really didn't quite get it about the silver "trophies" - seemed kind of extraneous, unnecessary in a way.

Also, blocks of time were skipped over - and I found myself wondering about the details of how the characters coped during those missing pieces of time. I was far more interested in the characters than I was in the plot.

Judy2

It's not that I didn't want Tara and Joe to get together, I thought it shouldn't have been part of the plot. I thought it would have been believeable if they had fallen in love after the murder was solved. In real life I doubt that any FBI agent would have been involved with anyone attached to an open case.

I was not very happy with the ending of the book. I think when Joe took Tara to the party it started to go down hill. I love mysteries and the more gore the better, but I don't like crimes against children. Killing Sean and having the book center on his murder to me would have made a better plot. Yes, we could have known what happened with the children and how they reacted toward Sean's murder, but it would have been much better to do at as part of a sub-plot.

33. In some ways Charlie and Dan's marriage was similar to Sean and Bay's. It almost seemed that all of them were more interested in their own lives rather than their partners. It takes compromise to make a marriage work and takes sacrifice and compassion and understanding from both partners to make a good marriage. I think Dan and Bay made the most sacrifice and had the most compassion and understanding, but I didn't see any effort from Sean and very little effort from Charlie.

CAT WOMAN, if you're not too busy packing, drop in on us before you go. You bring up a lot of valid points. Sometimes a discussion can shine a very vivid spotlight on a book, and It's stimulating to trade opinions on its virtues and flaws, Most of all, it's great to hear your sensitive interpretations of the characters. Thanks for the way you comment... both as a reader and a writer.

SUE, I wish you a smooth and pleasant transition into your new house. Hope your computer is set up successfully. Do come back to us as soon as you can. Your posts are wonderful.

MARJORIE, thanks for the links. I loved those paintings and thought they were beautiful!

JUDY2, that's very sharp of you to analyze the title of the book. It's one of those small details that it's easy to pass over...but your comment brought it into focus, and I do agree with you. Thank you for bringing that analysis to all of our attention.

SCRAWLER, your comments are a treasure trove of astute observations. I really like your style. You enjoy books as a reader, and you analyze them with a writer's eye. That's a winning combination. Thanks for all your comments.

---

It sounds like there's a LOT to be evaluated and said on the subject of the plot of the book. I see the beginning of a truly interesting and lively evaluation session, but maybe we can hold off on that for just another day or so...or at least intertwine it with the remainder of the book? We still have the ending of the book to talk about, and there's lots to discuss.

Let's devote a bit more time to tying up all the ribbons on our discussion. We have the Florizar Cup, and Dan's marriage to talk about. There is Eliza's abduction to discuss and the final solution to Sean's murder. We have two ENORMOUSLY detestable villains to uncover. I certainly never suspected the two who committed all the crimes until the book made their identities clear.

Did you?

And what did you think about Sean's treatment of Bay when she put on weight during her third pregnancy with Pegeen?

"Sean was always very weight-conscious - for me, thank you very much!" said Bay of that pregnancy and its aftermath.

Is Sean the guy we love to hate?

Are we willing to forgive him after learning about his attempts to save Eliza?

Let's have some more of all your wonderful culminating opinions. There's only a few days left until July 31st and there is sooo much to talk about and evaluate.

STICK WITH US, EVERYBODY...PLEASE!

Harriet

I didn't really hate Sean - I think he was a careless, thoughtless, selfish person, but I think he loved his wife and kids as much as he could. He just loved himself more. There are a lot of people like that in the real world. Now Dan... well, he seems SOOOO romantic and sweet and sentimental and loving. And just as totally willing to take advantage of other people's money as Sean! Remember - his wife supported his "hobby" of boat building.

Judy2

Just wanted to post a last message before I take off for Maine, to say how much I've enjoyed participating in my first Senior Net book discussion. Reading others' opinions(I started to say "listening" because I almost feel I hear everyone's words) added so much to my enjoyment of the book. Even though we agree in general, everyone notices small differences, and becoming aware of them gave me a deeper understanding of the characters and story. Sorry I won't be here till the end, but hope to run into all of you again in other discussions. And special thanks to Marjorie and Harriet for your thought-provoking questions.

JUDY2: You are certainly correct about Dan taking advantage of his wife's money to support his boat building. Still, I forgave him for that easily because of all his other good qualities. And his wife knew she was giving him her money. However, Sean took money that wasn't his and hid what he was doing. I agree with you that there are many Sean's out in the world whose interest centers on themselves first and foremost.

HARRIET: In answer to your question, No I did not forgive Sean after reading is letter to Anne and his attempts to save Eliza.

CAT WOMAN: Thanks for stopping in to say Goodbye before you leave. You have been a great participant and will be an asset to any discussion you choose to join in the future.

I have removed 3 questions and put up 3 more.

I guess I don't have as much reading time as you all as I've gotten behind so I unsubscribed so as not to spoil the book for myself. Just to let you know, I'll stop back when I'm done to see what everyone had to say. It's a very enjoyable book.

ANNIE: Thanks for letting us know why we haven't seen a post from you for a while. On Sunday I expect the discussion to be made Read Only and copied to the Archives. You will be able to find the discussion here to read until at least Tuesday and you can post through Saturday. This is just so you won't be surprised if you don't find us. After Monday, you can look in the Archives and find the discussion there.

Usually the police have to wait at least 24 hours before they can search for a missing person.

"A Device to Track Missing People": "When Samatha Runion, Daniell van Dam and Elizabeth Short were snatched from their homes, parents everywhere shared the dread and sense of helplessness of the girls' families. How do you find a child who has simply vanished at the hands of a stranger?

But technology does exist that can pinpoint a person's location using orbiting satellites. Now an inventor who originally wanted to tap the global positioning satellite system to find her runaway dog has won several patents for applying her idea to following and finding people.

Jennifer Durst, a single mother from Oyser Bay, NY, and two partners have patened a ligthweight, portable G.P.S. transceiver that she says is designed to be "form-fitted into a backpack, a baseball hat or a belt, for example." New York Times 8/25/02

This is just one device that is available to the general public.

When Eliza was kidnapped, this was the part that saddened me the most. I don't think it is necessary to make war on children no matter what the killers thought she saw. We live in a very troubled world. All of us know the problems that are out there. My daughter is thirty-five years old and I still worry about her. We need more efficient means to prevent what happened to Eliza. We can't always depend on the police and other agencies like the FBI to help us. We need to help ourselves and our children. I always told both my kids to be aware of what was around them and to feel that they could tell me anything. Eliza was just coming out of her "black times" when this happened to her. Can you imagine what it must have felt like to have to go through this? We see it all the time on TV, but to actually experience it is beyond my comprehension.

My feelings about Sean haven't really changed. He could have come forward and told the authorities about what happened. How did he know that Annie or anyone else would have found the note in the boat? Besides under a court of law that note wouldn't have been accepted at the killers trial. The police would have never found it because it wasn't in plain sight. It was up to Sean to come forward himself despite the personal consequences.

Sean wrote in the letter to his daughter he was going to the police but he was killed before he got there. I have read other books by Luanne Rice and in one of them Augusta does alot of drinking so I know how she wanted that silver gobblet and she was a dear old lady. The library here have many of books by Ms Rice maybe you could read some more of them.

SCRAWLER: That is interesting information about the tracking device from the article in the New York Times. If you have a URL for the article, would you please post it?

ROSEDA: I have read 12 of Luanne Rice's books but this is the first one that we have discussed here. I have enjoyed them all, some more than others. I will keep your suggestion in mind for a future discussion. It takes a couple of months to plan a discussion before it actually starts.

Welcome ROSEDA! Too bad you couldn't have joined us earlier in the discussion. But we're mighty glad to see you NOW.

SCRAWLER, like you I still worry about my adult son. The horror of having a child go missing is more than I can ever TRY to imagine.

I had never met Augusta in the few Luanne Rice books I read previously. I was both touched and amused by the reason she called her silver cup the Florizar cup. Augusta named the cup after Florizar, a racing horse that always seemed to come in second...as she felt SHE did with her philandering husband. Hugh always valued other women more than he did his own wife.

She drank away her pain and thumbed her finger at the world, all at the same time, didn't she? I like that feisty old gal.

Back later, I have some errands, but I'll return with more comments.

Harriet

I believe it was "Firefly Beach" when I remember Augusta from with her 3 daughters. Now I am reading "True Blue" just picked it up when I got "the Perfect Summer" from the library last week. In this book there a mention of Elizabeth Randall who turns out to be a forebarer of the woman the story centers on. I would read these books in order if I had known how they seem to weave themselves into one big story of a community in Conn. Check the order they were written by the copyright in the front pages. I think if you enjoyed "The Perfect Summer you might enjoy them all, But from the library girls as they operate with our usage.

I have alot of books that are going into a yard sale soon, about 5 five foot tall bookcases of them. Hope to be moving to Nebraska by spring from here in Oklahoma.

I'm afraid I don't have a URL. I got it from the newspaper when they published it in 2002 and I scanned it into my computer notes. I wanted to use it in one of my short stories I was writing, but I wasn't able to do it.

You might be able to get it from the pulic library archives or your New York times archives.

ROSEDA: I have read most of Luanne Rice's books. I think I have read all of this series. I really have enjoyed them.

SCRAWLER: Thanks for responding about the URL. You explained where the information originated so that is fine.

I have added our final question to the heading above:

What was your opinion of this book? Did you enjoy the opportunity for us to read a book together in the shorter time span of two weeks?

Tomorrow is the last day for this discussion.

Marjorie, as you know I'm in the middle of unpacking boxes and working around my painter, so I haven't been as active in the latter part of the discussion. I enjoyed the book very much. I thought Rice did a fairly good job of meshing the mystery with the romance and the characters were believable. I couldn't bring myself to like Sean, even with the redeeming features found at the end. I did want Bay and Dan to get together as well as Tara and Joe, even though the circumstances were a bit contrived. However, that's a romance novel for you. I thought the posts from everyone were very insightful. They made me want to re-read the book to find the nuances they mentioned. Sue

We're grateful for every post that you did manage to find time for, SUE. Thanks for the kind words. We loved your company.

ROSEDA, I notice you would like to see more light fiction books like Luanne Rice's? Your interest is appreciated.

JUDY2, I was very interested in the contradiction that you picked up. Dan did indeed accept money from his wife to pursue his love of boat building. MARJORIE pointed out the differences she saw between Sean and Dan's use of other people's money. Did anyone else have any opinions on that?

In a way, Dan certainly paid for his dependence...because his wife treated him in a contemptuous way, and admired a "go-getter" like Sean, didn't she? Even though Dan didn't know about Charlie's romance with Sean, his wife's increasingly cool behavior toward him must have hurt.

For Charlie Connolly, Sean turned out to be an unscrupulous "go-getter" whose company led to great danger.

In retrospect I can almost imagine Sean sitting in his boat doodling on some paper. His life must have been crumbling around him just before his death...the Bolands must have been applying pressure for him to help out in eliminating Eliza...his financial "game" was turning dangerous and terrifying...his world was crumbling. His scribbled doodles showed that Sean was weighing and considering his possible courses of action.

He doodled about Eliza, "the girl", and must have weighed the value of the child's life with all the ethics and morality that remained to him. Then Sean scribbled "Ed," for the Eliza Day Trust Fund and measured the joys of money, no matter how illicitly obtained. Mark and Alise Boland reached Sean and killed him before he made his final decision and acted on it.

How upset the charming, infantile Sean must have been as reality was catching up with him.

---

Everyone, I truly enjoy light fiction books, the ilk of those written by authors like Luanne Rice, Barbara Delinsky, Nora Roberts and others.

I suspect that this must be a shared taste for many, many folks... because those authors regularly top off the NY Times best seller lists, even though their books are not considered classics of literature. I wonder if it is also a shared taste among some of us here in SeniorNet?

With MARJORIE, it's been a pleasure to present one such book, The Perfect Summer, in the diminished time span of two weeks. We thought that this time span seemed particularly suitable to the lighter fiction book.

I thoroughly enjoyed all the lively posts and wonderful insights of all you participants. Many of you offered very valid criticisms of the plot.

It's true that the spotlight of a shared discussion brings many aspects of a book's plot and writing under closer scrutiny than we might otherwise have given it. The question is, did we have enough fun with a light fiction book to compensate for looking at both the merits and flaws of this genre of book?

I hope your answer is YES, but either way, it was such a fun discussion.

I had a great time and loved your company. Sure hoped you all did too.

Harriet

As we consider a summary of this book I have a quote I would like you all to consider:

... I’ve drawn on a lifetime of love and friendship to write about Bay and Tara. They are best friends, as close as sisters. They know each other’s hopes, dreams, and secrets. They know all the old jokes and all the darkest worries. When Bay needs to talk, she calls Tara. When Tara feels lonely, she just walks barefoot through the yards to find Bay. They put sunscreen on each other’s backs. They know each other well enough to tell the whole truth. And if someone decides to mess with one, he’d better know he’s taking on the other.

See, I have friends like that. Luanne Rice writing about The Perfect Summer

The link to this was in the heading but I don't know how many of you took the opportunity to read it.

I was struck by the fact that the author didn't talk about the story at all. She talked about summer and what summer meant to her growing up. Then she said she wrote a story about Bay and Tara. I had already read the book twice when I read that and I hadn't thought that the book was about Bay and Tara when I was reading it.

I thought the book was about Bay and her relationships -- to Sean, her children, Dan, and Tara. It was also about Dan's relationship to Charley and Eliza, Eliza's relationship with Annie, and Tara's relationship with Joe. The book was also about Sean's relationships and behavior to the people around him. I liked Bay and Tara's relationship but never thought that was so central to the story.

What do you think?

I liked the book and this discussion, even though I couldn't get here as often as I would have liked.

BTW -- I don't think Sean changed all that much because I see him as a weak person.

I normally don't read romance novels, so this was a different read for me. I thought when I first started reading that it was interesting to have a mystery within a romance novel, but the more I read the more I wondered where the author's focus was. I felt that the romance part of Bay and Dan and Tara and Joe were contrived to fit into the plot. They didn't seem natural to me.

I would of liked to have Tara and Joe's envolvement happen toward the end of the book, perhaps he could of come back and asked about Bay and than told Tara what happened with the trial of the killers and than she could have gotten together with him naturally.

I also thought that Dan and Bay's romance was not very natural and that it really was a little fast on both their parts. After all each had lost a partner very recently. I also thought they should have been concentrating on helping their children with their own loss, before they complicated their lives with bringing Annie and Elzia together as more than friends. And I had to wonder how Bay's other two children felt about Dan and Bay's relationship.

An epilogue would have done the trick so that the main story could have focused on Sean's death, Bay and Tara's relationship, and Amanda's relationship with both Bay and Tara. I also would have liked the author to down play the killers going after Eliza. That scene was very troublesome to me for this particular book.

In short I thought the author couldn't figure out whether she wanted to write a romance or a mystery. All stories have a little mystery about them, but she went to far with Eliza's kidnapping. If it was supposed to be a romance story, I really don't see where the kidnapping was necessary. Even the deaths of the adults would have been over the top for me.

I think if Sean had disappeared after taking the money it would have been enough for me in a romance story.

I really did like discussing the book though. It was a lot of fun and we have to do it again. What other romance writers to you folks like? How about a historical romance?

As always, your opinions are interesting and valid, SCRAWLER. The book may have had flaws, but this discussion was wonderful anyway, thanks to you and all the other participants.

I certainly had a lot of fun with this book also,and I'm so glad that you did too. It's been a lovely two weeks. Thanks for your participation.

Harriet

In truth I read all sorts of books and several at a time. I had never read any of Luanne Rice books until I saw that you were having this folder so I reserved "The Perfect Summer" and checked out 2 of her other books to read in the mean time along with a Johnathan Kellerman mystery. The book was over due for 2 weeks before I received it so I missed out on the discussion...Sorry.

yeah go Alf go!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you all for your participation in this wonderful discussion. I enjoy hearing from those of you who didn't have time to read the book or post about it just as much as those who provided such thoughtful responses to the questions that have been raised here. I hope to see you all again soon.

Any of you who want to talk about romance books or would like to suggest one for a discussion, please join us in our general discussion on Romance Books.

This discussion is being archived and is now Read Only.